Before we get to our show, here is a podcast we think you're going to love. I'm Haley. And I'm Katie. And we want to tell you about our new podcast, The Reference Desk. Each Wednesday, two librarians will take you down the rabbit hole of the topics that have bewitched us. After a deep dive into the subject, we'll leave you with some recommended books and media related to your new favorite topic. Our topics vary from historic to the creepy to the just plain bizarre. So whether you're looking for new things to read...
a lover of the odd or interesting, or just a basic book nerd, we hope you'll adjust the chain on your reading glasses, button up your favorite cardigan, and follow us punk-ass book jockeys through the stacks to the Reference Desk. The Reference Desk is available on Anchor, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. To find all of our episodes, book lists, and more, visit us at thereferencedeskpod.com. We'll see you in the stacks. Hello and welcome, friends and enemies. It's time for Perhaps It's You, your absolute favorite unofficial Unsolved Mysteries rewatch podcast. I'm Liz. And I'm Samantha. And I accidentally fell asleep before recording, so now I have no idea what's going on. I'm very frazzled. Hello. It's a good day for a nap. It's just that kind of gray, cold day. It's just a very sleepy Sunday. And even though I woke up with plenty of time.
I managed to drift off. Now, I'm not sure if this is a dream or reality. Hello. To be fair, most of our podcast recording could be described as not sure if it's a dream or a reality. I mean, does it matter? Hard to say. Hard to say. How are you doing today? Pretty good. And you? Other than sleepy? I'm all right. Yeah, it's the grayest day you ever saw. But I am alive.
And I am apparently recording a podcast. Hello. Hello. I was reminded that this time two years ago, I think two years ago, we were in the midst of a blizzard, an April blizzard. Yes, that sounds right. So the weather could be worse. No, I prefer this to the monkey's curse blizzard we had not too long ago. Long time listeners will remember us complaining about that recording during a blizzard or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not bad.
Do you have any updates beyond thanking the weather gods that we don't have a blizzard today? Thank you. I have a brief but important update. Okay. That's amazing. I just, I figured out the audio drop. I'll just drop this in when it's appropriate. All right. I have, I think I have a little update for you then. Hold on.
Oh, damn. Did it not work? Damn. I was just hoping it would. I was trying to play the song Kiss from a Rose as sung by Seals. Fortunately, I saw that in the Facebook group. Was it you that posted that? Yes. In the tradition of Jazzloon, there is a video of Kiss from a Rose as sung by Seals.
I think it's just playing in my headphones and nowhere else. So never mind. I heard it faintly and I was like, that sounds familiar. Is that Kiss by a Rose as sung by Seals? You're like, I would know that anywhere. That's not an update. Well, that's the only update I have. That was the only update I had. Very important. Actually, I don't know if this is an update or just something exciting that I want to share, which is that by the time you're listening to this, dear listeners, Liz will have gotten her second COVID shot and I will have gotten my first. Tomorrow, we're recording this Sunday. Tomorrow, Monday, I believe you get your second shot and I get my first one, which means in just.
A month's time? We're going to be fully vaccinated? Ready to record in person again? The possibilities are endless. Wait, is this a dream? Or is this really happening? I can't even process this information. I don't know.
It's very exciting, though. Oh, to record in person. Wow. What will that be like? I thought it would never happen again. And honestly, we might not remember how to do it. So I put all that equipment in a tub and put that away. Hook up all those wires. I don't know. Oh, God, all the wires. There's so many cords. We won't remember what they do. Anyway, that's exciting. Also, we never knew. Well, that's true.
That's fair. But we're here to show you that you don't need to know a lot about recording to have a very minorly successful podcast. No, you can even do audio drops. Yeah. If you just Google it and off. Exactly. Google is your friend. Where do we go from here? I don't know. I guess we could just start talking about the episode. Okay. Well, we're on season six, episode 12. If you're following along at home, you can watch that for free on YouTube. Season six already. Wow. It's hard to believe. I know.
Samantha goes first this week, and I don't envy her at all. I don't envy any of the segments she gets this week. I warned her. They're usually the ones I would get. Usually I get the very pleasant, wholesome, and heartwarming last love, and then you get some ridiculous military propaganda or some shit. Nope. Flip it and reverse it. This week, you have to deal with Robert Stack claiming that immigrants from Cuba are hardcore criminals.
Yay. Yeah. So we are, this is a wanted. We're looking for Armando Garcia. He is wanted for drug trafficking and conspiracy to commit murder. So we open this segment in Miami. Like Liz said, we get a monologue from Robert Stack about how Cuban immigrants are flooding into Miami and how some of them are criminals. So, okay. I forget the numbers he gave, but they were very specific. It was like this many immigrants have recently come to Miami. It was in the thousands. And this number of them are hardcore criminals. I was like, what is that based on? That is so weird. As far as we can tell. I feel like today we would recognize this as some racist dog whistle nonsense. I was like,
What are we doing here? And then I shouldn't laugh, but it's outrageous. Like, it's not subtle at all. And I want to know what constitutes a hardcore criminal instead of just a criminal. I want to know where he's getting these numbers. It's so weird. If this was even true, none of those thousands of hardcore criminals are who we're looking for.
to do with anything. Really has nothing to do with anything. And then Robert Stack goes on to talk about these race riots, which is done in such a way that makes you go, wait, is he trying to claim that the Cuban immigrants are responsible for the civil unrest? Yes. It's done extremely poorly. Yes. Which, by the way, they are not.
Robert Stack fails to explain that the May 18th, 1980 riots and civil unrest in Miami were the result of six police officers being acquitted for the murder of an unarmed black man. So there's that. I think if it was up to me, if I was choosing what segments to revive and put on the interwebs in this day and age, I might have cut this one out. Hasn't aged well. Been solved. Is totally solved. Should never have been on TV in the first place. Super racist. Terribly done. Garbage. Yeah. So just for the sake of correcting Unsolved Mysteries, like I said, the May 18th, 1980 riots in Miami that took place in the Black neighborhoods of Overton and Liberty City were the result of four white Dade County police officers who were acquitted of manslaughter and evidence tampering following a traffic stop in which they beat a Black man to death. Oh, my God. The victim was Arthur McDuffie, and he was...
insurance salesman and a marine what happened was he was riding his motorcycle which he was driving without uh registration or without a permit or whatever the worst possible crime yes go on yep and he also had a lot of traffic citations he was driving without a license he fled police officers and ended up crashing his his bike accidentally um and they proceeded there was actually six officers involved only four ended up being charged with anything they beat him to death and then to make it look like an accident one of them drove their police cruiser into the the motorcycle to make it look like they accidentally hit him and that's what resulted in his death and then an autopsy an autopsy revealed that it seemed like he was beaten to death so they were charged with manslaughter and evidence tampering one of them ended up admitting to uh staging the scene and when they were acquitted uh yeah civil unrest broke out and that's what unsolved mysteries shows like aerial footage of like burning buildings and stuff and kind of makes it seem like cuban immigrants are responsible for this for some reason even though even mentioning them has really nothing to do with the mystery at all except that miami opted their police force by double and i'm not clear if that's
Once All Mysteries makes it seem like it's because of the Cuban refugees. But whatever. It seems like it was probably in response to the civil unrest. Although I didn't do a lot of research. Because mainly this segment just made me angry. Wow. That is even more outrageous than I was aware of. And of course the response to police officers killing a man would be to double the police force. Right. Of course. Not much has changed. Wow.
Anyway, this thankfully is a really short segment and my notes on it are even shorter. So we'll get through this quickly. Thanks for that misinformation, Robert Stack. No kidding. So like I said, we're looking for Armando Garcia. He became a Miami police officer as they doubled their police force. Well, OK, so Robert Stack wants you to think Miami out of control. Lawless hellscape. Yeah, it's like some post-apocalyptic. It's like Escape from L.A. Kurt Russell is going to like.
surf on a wave of fire to get out of there. So obviously, obviously they had to double the police force. There's no other way you can address social problems. And that because of the urgency of doubling the police force, which was absolutely necessary, a few bad officers slipped through the cracks. Despite the fact that Samantha's telling me that they literally just killed a man for, of course, no reason. Yeah, it seems like the officers they had were also bad officers. Yeah, it seems like they had terrible officers and then they used them to train even more.
officers well it has no relation to life in minneapolis today and that's what no parallels whatsoever i can take some solace in yes we've come a long way thank goodness yeah this would never happen now we've learned so much yeah yeah so armando like i said became a miami police officer during he slept through the cracks he was the only bad one well that's not true but they had a barrel of apples and all of the apples were rotting but they said that he was the one that was bad yeah well actually we'll get to it there's like 40 others but whatever anyway so he unsolved mystery says he soon became corrupt uh he didn't okay oh my god i hate this he started by confiscating drug drugs and money from people whom he arrested and keeping them for himself okay all right garcia and several other officers had this like thing that they would continually do, knowing that it would be their word against the criminals. I wonder if that ever happens in any... Oh my god, I hate this. Eventually, he became involved with bogus police operations and raids of literal boatloads of drugs. In July of 1985, he and several other officers busted six men who were involved in distributing cocaine. During the raid, the men tried to escape by jumping into a river. Three of the men would drown while trying to escape from the officers.
When the bodies were found, investigators believed that it was a triple homicide. However, they were shocked when a security guard told them that the three men had drowned while trying to flee an, quote, official police raid by Miami officers. The problem with this is that the police logs had no record of such a raid. Further investigation led to the arrest of Garcia and 34 other officers on corruption charges. He and several other officers soon had planned to kill witnesses to their corruption-related crimes. This is just the plot of The Shield. Go on.
In January of 1986, Garcia and several other officers posted bail and began their plans to kill the witnesses. However, several problems occurred with this plan. First of all, the hired hitman took the money and never attempted to kill anyone. That's bold and I love it. Garcia and the other officers tried to kill the witnesses themselves, but they could never locate the witnesses. Fortunately, none of the witnesses were harmed in the end.
Because they were so bad at murder. Apparently. Garcia and the other officer's case, however, ended in a mistrial. Despite this, police now had new charges to file against them, which was the conspiracy to commit murder. On May of 1987, Garcia, however, went on the run and has never been seen since. Police believe that he may now be in South America. He's married and has two young daughters. Police believe that he is with his father, Torbillo Garcia, and an accomplice, Victor Zapata.
So fortunately, he is captured. Unfortunately, our enemy, America's Most Wanted, is the one who gets the kudos for capturing this guy. So Armando Garcia was arrested on January 1994 in Cali, Colombia, along with his father and the accomplice Zapata. This was the result of a tip from America's Most Wanted. Viewers, all three were returned to Miami to face trial. Armando was sentenced to 25 years. His father received 10 years and Zapata received 13. Armando served time in federal prison and was released in 2006. Tribu and Zapata have also since been released.
I'm fine with a viewer to America's Most Wanted solving this case because I don't want anything to do with it. That's a good point. They can have it. They can have this one. That's an America's Most Wanted case. This leads me to the true unsolved mystery, which is how people who are interested in true crime and mysteries are pro-cop. So many are. I don't understand. I really, I know it, but it continues to baffle me. It's like, surely the more you learn about our system, the more you would realize that it doesn't work. But that somehow is not true.
And people are like, no, the solution is more cops. It's like, well, the Golden State Killer was literally a police officer, but go on. Yeah, no kidding. And how many others out there? You know, all these unsolved murders, how many of them are because they were cops? These crimes are so brazen, and they absolutely thought they could get away with it. And they're one of the, this is a rare example of someone who didn't. Anyway. Anyway, and we changed gears completely. It's a lost love time. 180. Yeah. We are done with the racist propaganda. It is lost love time.
This story originally starts off three days before Christmas in 1964 when Faith Marie Brown of Flint, Michigan was out for a late night joyride with two friends. Tragically, the car crashed and the driver survived, but both passengers, including Faith, died. For some reason, we don't learn who the other passenger was, but I guess it doesn't matter. Faith Brown was dead at 26 and she left behind seven children under the age of 10. Faith had been divorced twice, and this meant that the children ended up divided between five different families, which is very sad, but also I can understand how it would be hard to find someone to take in seven young children. Yeah. I know. So the story really begins when April Gurges sets out to find her biological parents. This is in 1992. She had been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, which is a hereditary disease, and this inspired her to learn more about her birth family, which she didn't know anything about. All she knew was that when she was named Michelle Brown at birth and that she was born on September 18th, 1961.
She goes to the county records office, and when she's asking about her birth, she can see on the paperwork that she was born with a brother, Michael Brown, but she's actually not supposed to see that. And when she asks to look at the dominant contention, they're like, oh, actually, that's confidential, which makes total sense. So she learns that she had a brother, Michael Brown, kind of by accident. Three days later, she receives a letter from the county informing her that she actually had four brothers and two sisters, which was news to her. But there was no additional info on how to find them.
By coincidence, Mike Galloway was her best friend's husband, and he had also been adopted. So he was interested to hear about her search. So reenactment Mike has a mustache. And it looks pretty good on him, I have to say. There's a few good mustaches in this episode, actually. I called it a good brother. Nice. Kind of giving away the twister. Sorry, everybody. But he kind of looks like Mike, but not really. Which means that Mike's, real Mike's actual mustache is unfortunately called less good Mike. Sorry, real Mike. Your mustache is not as good as the actor who played you. Anyway, so it turned out that Mike Galloway's name at birth was also brown. And he was also born, he was born in 1960.
However, Brown is a pretty common name, and they didn't want to jump to any conclusions. But as they were talking about it, the next day, they found out that Michael knew he had a sister named Michelle, which would be Michelle Brown, which was literally her birth name. So they found out that despite knowing each other for the past eight years, they were actually brother and sister, which is pretty cool. Except for the fact that Mike kind of creepily tells us that it's good that they didn't meet first and start grading. And goddamn, we all agree, Mike. That is for the best. And he literally says, it would have been kind of shocking to have kids with your own sister, I suppose.
Yeah, I suppose to. I suppose I would, Mike. This is like Game of Thrones. He really kind of kept that thought to himself instead of sharing it on national television with all of us, which is disgusting. We all got to do a collective. All right, Mike. So, well, ignoring that Mike is a tiny bit creepy, they begin to piece together information about their mother, Faith. They learn that she dropped out of school at 16 to get married. By 20, she already had four children, which, oh my God, including two twin boys.
I mean, it sounds like the worst life ever, I gotta say. Oh yeah, you get pregnant again and it's like, oh, you're gonna have two of them now. At 20? So you're 20! No! Okay, her husband, for some reason that is not clarified, did not believe he was the biological father of the twins and divorced her and took the children. Which is odd to me. It's odd that he went, I'm not the father of these children and I am taking them with me. Didn't that end up being true? I think, I wasn't clear on that. I might not have been watching that closely, so maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the twins did have, the twins had a different.
Had a different father. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not really sure. I just assumed he was a controlling freak. Why did he demand custody of them? Probably because he's an asshole. He was like, these are not my children. And I'm taking them. Goodbye. I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense. But they do break up in a really awesome mid-century living room. So look for that. That's true.
April and Michael were followed by another man, but ended up taken away by the state for reasons that are not really clear. I'm just guessing she couldn't take care of them. Faith also had another daughter, Shannon, who was the youngest, who she did have custody of at the time of her death. But of course, after she died, she was put up for adoption. So at the time of the segment, they were searching for April and Mike's father. April believed that her father's last name was Dennis. And they are seeking to put together the pieces of their family puzzle. Also, April, now learning that her best friend's husband is actually her brother, is like, is anyone outside of?
related to me i apparently have a lot of siblings and i would be like yeah that is unsettling you would want to know yeah yeah yeah so fortunately this is all worked out uh four of the missing siblings were actually watching the initial broadcast and call in and within 24 hours all five had called the call center so we do get to see the family reunion which is the bestest fashion we have seen in a while real good i wrote down so many notes okay so You have that, but family reunion. There's mustaches galore. Everybody's hugging and it's very excited. And then for some reason, Robert Stacks is like, and then the twins arrived. As if they're like famous or something. There's a red carpet. Flash bulbs going off. The twins, Kenneth and Keith, arrived together. And they are fashion icons. One is wearing a cowboy hat and bolo tie. While one is wearing a trucker hat and a 70s polyester shirt. And they just strut in. I own the place. I cannot understand what is happening.
Mike himself, who is glad he didn't end up dating his sister, is wearing a bolo tie of a gold eagle while wearing a satin jacket with his name embroidered on the lapel. Someone woman is wearing a gold lame blouse. I'm not sure if that's Michelle. Someone is wearing a pink Western shirt. There's a purple puffed sweatshirt. It's all amazing. It's all the best fashion I've ever seen in my life. If I found any of these clothes at the thrift store, I would be so excited. I just wrote, I love it all. They all seem super happy to get back together. It was sweet. I wish I had this mystery.
Yeah, I'm sure you do. Their mom had passed away and none of them had like a lot of connection to her, but they sort of got to learn about her from meeting their other siblings and the rest of their family. And I'm glad that they got that bond later in life. It's cute. It was cute. I enjoyed it. It's very different than the first mystery and very different than the mystery we got you now as I hand it over to Samantha. Thanks. So now we have two unexplained deaths, which seems super explained. Seems like, I don't know, allegedly maybe the military suicided these two, but I'm...
only speculating based on pure facts laid out in the Unsolved Mysteries episode. I want to live. So the fact that this mystery is allegedly not mysterious at all and is actually super solved, we don't have to point that out super hard. No, I'm definitely not calling attention to the fact that these two didn't kill themselves and were actually murdered by the military. Allegedly. Maybe. We don't actually know. We're going to go along with the military's official explanation for sure. Wink. Definitely.
listener that wrote to us from an army base i want to hear from you on this segment or not actually no don't have any association with us at all for your own yeah you seemed really cool uh anyway Yeah, let's just get it over with. Yeah. So this is an unexplained death. We open in the National Cemetery in Little Rock, Arkansas. Robert Stack says, quote, recently we came across this article in the Philadelphia Inquirer, which makes me think that Unsolved Mysteries kicked off this mystery, which is kind of funny and kind of cool. I wonder if it got to the point, you know, we're in season six. They're like, we have got to find some more mysteries. We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. So they're just like flipping through different newspapers. Yeah. This is a piece by investigative reporter David Zucchino, not David Zucchini. I love that name. Like I almost wrote down. I wish my last name was Zucchino. It's awesome. It is a pretty good name.
40 suspicious deaths of U.S. service members that were all ruled either suicide or accidental self-inflicted deaths by the military. 40. 40. However, Robert Stack says that in each instance, evidence defies the official ruling. That's bold of him to say. I mean, we've saw in that first segment how much this show loves some official propaganda. So it's odd that now they're taking on the military.
It is. And I forget the number because I didn't write it down, but he tells us that something like 30 families of some of these service members actually testified in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee or something, basically begging the government to look into this because all their deaths are suspicious as fuck. And this episode of Unsolved Mysteries is going to talk about two of them that are very similar. So this is the death of Billy Ray Hargrove and Michael Carmichael. So Anselmistry says that the National Cemetery in Little Rock, Arkansas is the final resting place for hundreds of soldiers, sailors, and pilots, and that two men buried here are at the center of a mystery that has no easy answers. Their names are Sergeant Billy Ray Hargrove and Sergeant Michael Carmichael. The Army says that both men killed themselves, but their families say the Army is, quote, dead wrong.
And we hear from Billy Ray's father, who says that Mike didn't have anything to die for. No more than Billy had anything to die for. And neither one of them committed suicide. They just didn't do it. So Billy Ray Hargrove and Michael Carmichael led very similar lives. They both had planned careers in the military since they were little kids. Both of them joined the army in their teens and both married Korean women while stationed in the Far East. They became best buds as they climbed through the ranks. During the first Gulf War, Billy and his outfit were sent to Saudi Arabia. However, according to Billy Ray's mother, Sue Nunnally, the conflict ended before their platoon saw any combat. Also, Sue's hair.
is a masterpiece. It's very big, isn't it? I didn't write down. Sue understands that the higher the hair, the closer to God. Very curly. Yes. Yeah. She crafted that hairdo.
So she says that when Billy finished Desert Storm, he was disappointed because his men did not get a merit award or a medal that he felt like they deserved. And he set about trying to get a medal for them. And no matter what direction he went in, he just wasn't able to get it approved. So we get this reenactment of him going to his superior officer and asking for him to sign for this medal. And he said, because your platoon didn't see any conflict, I'm denying your request. And we don't really get a lot.
more details about like why he thought like what they so it sounds like they got there and the the combat was pretty much over and so i'm not exactly sure what they did that he thought merited an award um i assume he does they deserve an award but we don't get any details about it whatsoever just that he was repeatedly denied um So Robert's text says that Billy couldn't accept the army's decision and made a questionable decision of his own. And I do agree this does seem questionable because it seems like something he would obviously get caught for. Yeah, it's odd. It's an odd decision. So he forged his superior signature on the appropriate documents. And a short time later, his men did receive their medals. However, in 1991, when he arrived in Korea for another tour of duty, he was promptly arrested at the airport by military police. And it's like, yeah, of course you were. Yeah. Your superior isn't going to notice that you all got the awards he clearly denied.
Obviously you're going to get caught for this and the awards are going to get taken away and you're going to get in big trouble. I guess I don't understand why he did this, but anyway. So strangely, he was charged with treason, at least according to the reenactment. The guy who arrested him said, we're arresting you for treason. I'm guessing the army takes forging your superior officer signature very seriously. Does it seem like treason? I mean, just to get your men a medal? I mean, I'm guessing that they would consider that treason no matter why you did it. Maybe. I don't understand the military. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe people in the military are like, this is a crime of the highest order. How dare you? I have no idea. It doesn't seem that serious to me. I mean, it seems serious. And obviously, you're going to get in trouble for it. At a normal job, you would get fired. Right.
In the military? I don't know. In the military, you're apparently court-martialed. That actually, that tracks. Yeah, you're court-martialed and charged with treason, which is what Billy was facing. Unfortunately, at the same time, his marriage was also falling apart. Billy Ray's mother, Sue, says that Billy and his wife were fighting often. She said there was a lot of jealousy. She was constantly accusing him of having a girlfriend and having a child somewhere. I don't know if that was true. We're actually not told that that's not true, but okay. No idea. His mom actually says, I'm not sure. It wasn't true at all. But anyway, they were fighting and it seemed like they were on the verge of divorce. On February 20th, 1992, Billy missed a summons.
to report to duty. Even after one of his fellow sergeants informed him that he was late, Billy never reported. Instead, he set out with his dog for a walk. 20 minutes later, Billy's wife heard the dog barking. When she went out to see what was going on, she found Billy hanging from a tree by an elastic parachute string. That seems like a very bad material to hang yourself with. It does. I thought that too when I was watching this. Something stretchy? No. That's not going to work well. I like that he was charged with treason but still asked to show up to work. He was like, nah, fuck that. Fuck you. I'm not showing up to work. I'm already accused of treason. How much worse is it going to get? Right.
And then it got worse. Yeah, unfortunately it did. So a suicide note was found in his pants pocket. It read in part, quote, my life is really screwed up now and I just don't know how to fix it. I've been thinking a lot about taking my life for a long time now. Sue, however, his mother, doubts that her son wrote the note because the handwriting looked nothing like his. And even the army acknowledged that the note might not have been in Billy's handwriting. Even so, they ruled his death a suicide.
That's a weird acknowledgement. According to Billy's mother, they concluded that he had been depressed about his upcoming court martial and divorce. She said, quote, he was not the type of person to commit suicide no matter what, especially putting a rope around his neck. I could just not believe it. And I still don't believe it. Something happened to him, but he did not commit suicide. The thing is, I might believe this was a suicide. I think families often have trouble accepting their loved ones commit suicide. And, you know, things were maybe not going in a great direction for him. I would believe it more if we didn't have this second episode.
Yeah, the second one in this, which is basically identical to what happened to him. Also, the autopsy report contained evidence that it may not have been a suicide. Billy had cuts and abrasions on his face, hands and knuckles. His mother thinks that he may have been involved in a fight before he died. So it seemed like there was signs of a struggle on his body, which you wouldn't expect to see if he was just out walking his dog and then decided to hang himself from a tree. With the parachute cord he had with him. Yeah. What? Was he using it as a dog leash? I don't understand. So he was laid to rest on March 4th, 1992. One of the mourners at his funeral was his friend, Mike Carmichael.
And Billy's father recalled a conversation he and Mike had. He said, quote, when I finally met Mike, it was at Billy's funeral, when he brought Billy's body back home. And he told me, he said, well, give him hell. They're going to make him pay. The SOBs pay for what they've done.
So basically, Mike Carmichael was like, this was no suicide. And he told his father as much. So after the service, Mike returned to the Hargrove's house with Billy's family, where he also spoke to Billy's mother. She said, he looked at me and he promised. And he told me that if it was the last thing he ever did, he was going to find out what happened to Billy Ray. Unfortunately, six weeks later, Mike was also found dead. Mike's uncle, Oscar Carmichael, served in the Marines for 20 years. And he said that Mike believed there was a larger conspiracy involved. He said there had been three other army personnel in Korea that had supposedly committed suicide. And my nephew told his birth mother, don't be surprised if I'm next. Yeah, that's kind of important.
Uh-huh. Yeah, not only are these two suicides extremely similar, but these weren't random people. They knew each other. And all these people are just dropping dead of suicide. And he's literally like, if this happens to me, I didn't do it. Yeah. So seeming allegedly not mysterious at this point, but allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. So Mike Carmichael returned to Korea and began his own investigation.
He and his wife, Soon Hu, visited Billy Ray's widow and collected his personal papers. Included was a letter Billy wrote to his father a few days before his death. But the letter never made it home to Billy's father. Billy's father says he was supposed to have written me a letter sometime in February, and I'm sure if I could find that letter, it would explain a lot of things. Probably true. Mike continued to collect Billy's papers and stored them with his own papers in a metal box. Mike told his uncle Oscar that if anything were to happen to him, Oscar should immediately open the box. But Mike never said what was in it.
Interesting. Then on April 3rd, 1992, on Mike Carmichael's 38th birthday, he received an unexpected phone call ordering him back to the base. According to his wife, soon, by the next morning, Mike had still not returned home. She said that on Sunday morning, she called the Army base to find out where her husband was. She talked to security and was told that they had not seen her husband at all. So she asked him to try and knock on the door of his barracks, and he said that there was no response. So at this point, Mike's wife is...
starting to get a little worried. An hour later, Sun found Mike Carmichael's body in his barracks office. He was hanging by a parachute cord and was leaning in an odd position against his locker. Like Billy, he had abrasions on his face and a gash on his forehead and he had been dead for several hours. But isn't he sitting down? Yeah, this is what's odd. He is hanging from the parachute cord, but he's only a few inches from the ground. Like his butt is just a few inches from the ground. It's a very unusual way to kill yourself. And that's remarked upon by several people in the episode. Yeah. Like this is not how you would do it. First of all, there are other people that you would not use a parachute cord. It's super stretchy and you wouldn't do it this way.
Because you're naturally going to want to like prop yourself up. It doesn't make any sense. So the Army's investigation concluded that Mike Carmichael had taken his own life because he was depressed over financial matters and Billy's death. His uncle doesn't believe it for a second. Neither does anyone else. The Carmichael and Hargrove families absolutely refused to believe that the deaths were suicide. They launched a letter writing campaign asking for the official reports from the military. Unsatisfied with the military's response, they contacted the office of U.S. Congressman Jay Dickey. Greg Stein was Congressman Dickey's legislative assistant and looks to be approximately 12 years old. I wrote that down too. I literally wrote, Greg Stein looks 12 years old.
He looks so young. I'm sure he's very accomplished and he did a good job investigating this, but goddamn, he looks like he can't even drive. Do you have a driver's license, Greg? He must be a child genius that graduated high school at six. Definitely. And so he's quoted as saying, even the reports that I could get were lacking in the photos of the crime scene. Other things were withheld or whited out for unknown reasons. And after looking at it, I didn't think that they took into account all of the different aspects of the case. So it seems like they maybe didn't hardly investigate this at all.
They being allegedly the military. So Congressman Jay Dickey says that he believes there's been a cover-up. He says, quote, I don't want to accuse anyone at this time, but the reason why there would be a cover-up, I don't know. That's one of the things we want to find out. But I happen to think that if we open things up, we'll find an answer.
So the two families are especially troubled by the many similarities of the two deaths. Both Billy and Mike died just after they were summoned to the army barracks. Both were tied with parachute cord. Both had cuts and abrasions to their faces and hands. And both men were found hanging just inches from the ground. Yeah. Okay, I'm just falling here. I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm just speculating. If you had to lift a body up to, like, make it, maybe stage a suicide, you probably can't lift them that high. Because they're heavy. They're heavy, you know? Also, for some reason, you're using stretchy cord. Yeah, it makes it even more difficult, allegedly.
So the metal box that contained Mike and Billy's personal papers was sitting on a desk across the room from Mike's body. The box of letters later disappeared and no one knows what happened to it. And military personnel deny its very existence. So naturally, the men's families suspect a cover-up. I have no idea why. A congressional hearing, however, upheld the Army's findings of suicide. They found that Mike had choked himself with a rope while sitting on the ground. Billy's mother says that the hearing was just a formality put on for show and insists that the two friends were murdered. I mean, I'm not going to say I agree, but... No, I'm staying neutral on this one. We have an official ruling, and I'll just leave that there for our listeners to mull over. Yeah.
I feel so bad for these families. So bad. And 40 others. Yeah. I mean, countless others, honestly. But the ones who were mentioned in the Unsolved Mysteries were 40. Even if it's not true for all 40 people, it's hard to think that there's not a pattern there. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot who Oscar is. I think he's someone's dad, but he had a mustache. Oh, yeah. There was a few mustaches in here I forgot to mention. He had a thin gray kind of creepy mustache.
Called The Truther. Oh, I think Oscar was one of their uncles. Oh, right. Mike's uncle. Yeah. Mike's uncle Oscar. Yep. I want to say as little about that mystery as possible because I don't want to get renditioned. Agreed. Yeah. So let's just move on. This is an interesting case, this last one, but it is sad. So let's have some fun with this missing person case. We are learning about Denise Hovart Allen.
who stopped hearing from her 20-year-old son Charles in 1989 when he was traveling through Canada. She lives in England, where Charles was also originally from. That spring, Charles had started hitchhiking across Canada. And I wrote down probably in search of cheesies. Probably. Also, the actor that gets to reenact this man is very attractive.
Yeah, he seems like a charmer, and is the reenactment accent accurate? Let's just assume it is. So his original plan was that he was going to hitchhike to Karras, Canada, and then fly to Hong Kong in August to celebrate his 21st birthday with his mom Denise and his stepfather. So he had always been pretty close with his mother. She had him pretty young, and they had sort of a Gilmore Girls relationship. So when she stopped hearing from him, she was concerned, and she contacted local embassies, but they weren't really much help, so she decided to go look for Charles herself.
She started in Kelowna, British Columbia, because that's the last place she had heard from him. He had faxed her a letter on May 11th, 1989, and then she never heard from him again. She made two extended trips to that area between 1990 and 1992, hanging up flyers and talking to people in the area to see if they had seen Charles. This letter to Joanne, who we hear from, who had met Charles a few times and was obviously charmed by him. Not a surprise. We get a reenactment of them like walking along and he's like showing photographs of his family and like talking about how much he likes them. The last time she had heard from him is that he had shown up uninvited while her brother was visiting and was told over the intercom that it wasn't a good time. And apparently he had responded. And this is clearly like now a running joke in her family, but it's Charles. Like he couldn't believe that they wouldn't invite him up. They were like, no, this is kind of like a family thing and we barely know you. So we're trying to have dinner. Sorry, dude. We're having a family dinner while my brother who doesn't live here is in town. So sorry, Charles. And he clearly was just like, well, I don't get it.
He's a super friendly guy. Anyway, so that was in May of 1989. He had been staying at a campground, which we are told is an unsavory part of town. And hilariously, when they do a reenactment to show us that it's an unsavory part of town, that is consisted of a dude sitting on a motorcycle and old people pouring coffee. Unsavory. Very disturbing. So the mom was like scared to go look for him there.
Eventually she did, and she went to talk to the campsite manager that told her that Charles had abruptly left in May of 89, leaving his tent and his possessions behind. Most of them had been disposed of already, but they were able to give her a few remaining items, which at least in the reenactment were a watch and a rosary. At this point, Denise went to the police station. Apparently the police officer she spoke to told her that her son was probably dead and they would never find his body, but that he would contact Interpol to see if they could get his dental records. what an asshole i know so then we get a statement from a police officer saying i don't know who said that and i apologize because wow that's really not how this should have been handled so in march of 92 denise was in town looking for her son and she was shocked to find a letter shoved under her door that was quote scrawled in a rough hand and it said i seen your son in the paper looking i seen your ad in the paper looking for your son i seen him may 26 we were partying two people knocked him out but he died. His body is in the lake by the bridge. So Lake Okanogan, I probably said that wrong, just outside of town, is one of the deepest lakes in the world, which made this slightly complicated. Volunteer divers immediately got to work, but after five days, they hadn't found anything, and Denise got another note saying they were looking at the wrong side of the bridge. So one day after moving their location, they did find a body. However, despite preemptive reports in the newspaper saying that this was Charles, it was not. It was actually a 64-year-old local resident who probably committed suicide.
This leads to a leap on logic I'm not entirely sure about. The police now believe the notes were hoaxes and that finding the body was a coincidence. I'm not quite sure why they decide that because we still don't know what happened to Charles. I'm sorry to tell you. So anyway, there's no way they know that. Because we now hear from a man who came forward to say that he saw Charles at the campsite where he was also camping there. That he used to have coffee with him in the morning and he would play with his son. And he described Charles as very friendly, quote, perhaps too friendly and a little naive.
This man was named Gino and he is our MBM. He has a gigantic mustache called Mega Man Walrus. It's huge. And I don't know. Gino seems like a fun guy. I'm not sure what like too friendly means, but whatever. So he had last seen Charles that was apparently a raucous party at the campsite. The next morning, Charles was gone, but his things were still there.
The police now believe that, okay, so everybody's last recollection of Charles is in May. That's when his mom last hears from him. That's when Joanne says he last came to her apartment. That's when this guy says he last saw him at the campsite. That's when the camp manager says he was just gone and we got rid of his stuff. It's sad to me that neither Gino nor the camp manager thought to contact the police that this guy had just left all of his morbidly possessions at his campsite, apparently, including things that seem valuable, like a watch.
OK, so all of those things are in May of 89. But then the police believe that Charles went to Joanne's place in July, two months after leaving the cramp ground and writing his mother. I have no idea how they come to that conclusion. It's not supported by anywhere else. And it doesn't make any sense to me. No. So that led them to believe that he may have intentionally cut off ties with his family. Oh, my God. He's going to love his family. He was so close with his mom. OK, he literally meets a girl while on vacation and is just talking about his mom. That's not a guy that's going to cut off ties with his family. Also, he's faxing her letters.
He could have gone to Canada and never talked to her again easily. But instead he's at a campsite but tracking down a fax machine in order to send his mom letters. No, they just don't want to look into it. That doesn't sound like a guy that doesn't want to contact his family to me at all. And I don't understand how they come to decide that he actually last went to Joanne's place in July. That doesn't match up with where was he staying then? Yeah, this doesn't track at all. It doesn't seem like he has enough money to like go to a hotel or something. And he just left everything he owns at the campsite.
I find it very annoying. There have been maybe 200 eyewitness signings of Charles, some as late as June 92. However, we know that's not. Very accurate. Particularly, none of these people would know Charles, right? So they've seen a guy that looks like Charles. Or they saw a guy with an English accent. I don't know. Sadly, there's no update. We don't know what happened. Denise basically spends her whole life looking for Charles. She was part of some... Let me see this on Unsolved Mysteries Wiki. She's part of some choir of people who have missing family members. Oh my god. Okay, this is from Unsolved Mysteries Wiki. Unsolved. In 2010, the serious crime unit listed Charles as deceased. In 2015, Denise noted that her trip to Canada in search of him would probably be her last one. Okay, so she has been going.
Since 1990. Oh my God. She spends 25 years going to Canada and looking for her son. That would probably be her last trip due to health problems and financial difficulties. In 2017, she appeared on Britain's Got Talent as part of the Missing People's Choir. If Charles was still alive, he would be 51 today.
I have chills. This is terrible. I think there's absolutely no way Charles is still alive. I think there's no way he winds up contacting his mother. I think he was murdered at that party after some altercation with someone and thrown in the river. Yeah, I think that this letter that the police just dismiss as a hoax when they don't find his body, that lake is extremely deep. And I don't know if it connects to anywhere else or if there's any sort of current. But after they found one body, they stopped looking. Yeah.
Just because absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. That doesn't mean that his body is not in that lake. Yes. And the person writing those notes was invested enough to be like, you're looking in the wrong place. I'm guessing he died like accidentally at that party. Maybe there was a fight. Maybe there was a fight. Maybe he drank too much. Maybe he fell in his head. I don't know. But people felt like they had to get rid of his body. And to some degree felt bad about it. Enough to try to leave the mom in the right direction. That's my guess. I don't know why the police just dismissed that. It seems like someone knew something.
I was just about to say the same thing. Someone knows something. This is one of those mysteries that should be added to the reboot. Yes. Dredge that lake again. Yes. Poor Charles. Just a young guy that was out to explore the world and have adventures and hit up women by talking about his mom.
Man, yeah. I can't. I mean, look, I don't manage a campsite in an unsavory part of town, but I feel like if someone just up and vanishes and leaves all of their earthly possessions, that maybe you should report them missing. You don't manage an unsavory campsite where people are drinking coffee? Yeah, yeah. Where old Canadian women pour coffee into metal pots. Oh, my worst fear. He seems like he was a really nice guy, and his mom clearly loved him. He was so loved.
That's such a shame. God damn. I know. I know. I don't know. Canadian police do better. I'm not impressed. No, definitely not. Also just being like, look, your son's dead. We're never going to find the body. I barely know why you're here. She's like, wow. Maybe we can send you those. Wow. Welcome to Canada. Indeed.
All right. Should we rate this episode? This is going to be a challenge. Let's do it. Yeah. Okay. So mysteriousness is our first. Pretty mysterious. And I do think it's mysterious. Yeah. Pretty mysterious. There's a case we're not even going to comment on. And we don't know what happened to Charles. So pretty mysterious. Pretty mysterious. Reenactments? I thought they were fine. I don't know if anything stood out. You're in a reenactment, Charles. So maybe that gets a thumbs up. I was going to say the casting was pretty good. So maybe I'll give you a thumbs up. Yeah. Oh, fashion. Fashion. I feel like I know your rating. I've never taken so many notes on fashion.
This gets two thumbs up. This is great. Yep. And Robert Stack is getting two thumbs down for me. I'm sure he didn't. He didn't write that first segment, but I'm holding him accountable. So no, he seems to really relish this explanation that somehow immigration demands more police. But of course, they'll be terrible. That's just that's just a fact you have to accept. Obviously, some of them will commit major crimes. Yeah. Thumbs down. Thumbs down.
But yeah, how do you want to rate this one on a Robert Stack scale? We can give it anywhere from zero to five Robert Stacks. I mean, a mixed bag if ever there was one. I think I feel better about this episode because I did not have either of your mysteries. I got an adorable lost love and a mysterious disappearance. So I'm going like, oh, this is a three. But also, I'm not you. So what do you think?
I mean, the mysteries were mysterious, actually. Like, do I find all of them pretty mysterious and pretty interesting? Yes. I just don't like how they were presented. Well, that's just not true. I don't really find the first one that mysterious at all. Right. The wanted was whatever. They caught him. Fine. Give that one to America's Most Wanted. Yeah, yeah. Throw that away. I liked The Lost Love. I always love The Lost Love. And then the last two were interesting, but, you know. A one we can barely comment on. Yeah. So where am I? Maybe a...
about 2.75 i don't know sure yeah i i would say five racist robert stacks oh absolutely five regular robert stacks i think that's totally fair yes i really see where you're coming from um we'll just forget this whenever happened yeah don't show it to small impressionable children please no please you're like liz i don't show my children unsolved mysteries well that makes you different than my parents so you want your kids to grow up like us or not they're like oh god no good choice okay that brings us now that the military has not killed us yet we get to give some recommendations since we're still alive since we're still kicking a breathing i can recommend to you a book oh this is non-fiction this is the book scream chilling adventures in the science of fear by what is this author's full name Margie Kerr. I didn't know a ton about this book. It just sounded interesting. I checked it out from the library. I really enjoyed the first half of it. So this is a psychologist, I cannot talk, who works for a popular haunted house and realizes that there's not a lot of science about why people seek out things that are scary.
Like what is the appeal of roller coasters, scary movies, haunted houses, stuff like that. There's a lot of science on what we find scary and why, but there wasn't a lot about like why people would actively look for and find joy in scary experiences. So this book is mostly her purposely going to do some scary things like ride the world's tallest roller coaster. And she goes to this tower in Canada that's really high up where you're like on this bungee thing. You're like basically like hanging off the top of a high building to like, for fear of heights, she gets, she goes to an old haunted prison.
to spend some time in solitary confinement and also to like look for ghosts and i thought all of those things were super interesting she talks about like what is being stimulated in your brain and like why you would like that and how knowing that you're actually like in a safe environment to like it's very different than just like you know actually being scared of something and sure stuff like that and i found that all super interesting there's a part of the okay so that's the first part of the book um in physical thrills where she does a like drop um a sphere of heights then we do the part two psychological thrills so being psychological chills sorry being a lion in the dark exercising the ghost little house of horrors that's like a uh haunted house she goes to i'm less interested when we get to part three real fear so this involves some the first part involves some tourism like going to the tallest roller coaster whatever but the real fear part I'm not sure I'm totally on board with this. It seems kind of tacky. She goes to the, what sometimes referred to as the suicide forest in Japan to, to, to confront her fear of death. And then she goes to Columbia just because I guess there's crime. Oh my God. So I was very interested in this book. I had recommended to a lot of people having read like the first part. And then I got to those parts and I was like, I don't really know that this is appropriate. And she just kind of acknowledged her privilege of like, that she gets to just travel to Columbia and leave. And it's not really the same and whatever. I was like, yeah, but you're still doing it.
But then at the end, it's like, well, I used everything I've learned to make the scariest haunted house ever, improving people's lives. And I'm not sure I quite. Wait, wait, what? She like really congratulates herself on making. OK, let me find out. I honestly do recommend this book. I found it really interesting. It's just the longer that it goes.
for sure the more i was like this is from the very end before the afterward years ago i became a sociologist because i wanted to make people's lives better i wanted ways i wanted to find ways to end the hurtful and impacting damaging impact of prejudice discrimination and abuse rooted in fear i never thought i would accomplish that in a dusty basement with a knife in one hand and a black back in the other a little self-aggrandizing She's like, I took all this knowledge and I made a haunted house. The greatest human achievement of all time. Okay. I mean, I'm sure it's a great haunted house, but that's a little bit self-aggrandizing. Did you know that that has an impact on racism somehow? Yes. Yes.
I'm actually interested in reading this book. It sounds interesting. That part seems funny, but I'm interested in the science of fear. That's a little much. I'm guessing she just didn't have quite enough for a whole book. Yeah, sometimes she refers to other things that she did that she clearly decided I'm not going to write a whole chapter on this. She was like, this person has been with me through a lot, including that time they literally saved me from drowning by that haunted lighthouse. And I was like, where's that chapter? Why can't I learn more about that? Why are you just going to Columbia and getting scared someone's going to mug you?
Okay. Anyway, so it is a bit of a mixed bag, but I found the science part very interesting. And if you're like me, you can check it out in the library. It won't cost you any money. And you could, I don't know, maybe skip that. That's my recommendation. That's a good recommendation, actually. I think I'm probably going to read that book.
I have a recommendation. So I struggle to come up with a recommendation like we talked about multiple times. I'm just not trying out a lot of new things lately. But I realized that I'm trying off this app and I'm liking it so far. So I'm going to give this like a hesitant recommendation and then maybe update our listeners in a few weeks or months when I've used it for a little bit longer. So in one of my gardening groups, someone recommended this app called Greg. I don't know why it's called Greg. It doesn't seem to stand for anything. I think it's funny. I do think it's funny. It's literally G-R-E-G. And it's a plant care app.
So I, despite the fact that I love plants and own probably over a hundred house plants at this point, I do actually struggle to remember to water them, which isn't the worst problem. House plants, I feel like die most often from like overwatering, but I've had some plants suffer from time to time from neglect. And so I saw this recommendation for this app called Greg and it's like, it's supposed to use artificial intelligence to like learn like your plants water, individual watering schedules and send you reminders when you should water your plants. And so there's a free version, which is the version I have. And I think you can have like up to five plants. So I'm going to do a little test run on this app with some of my plants and see if it works and if it helps me keep to a better watering schedule for some of my plants. Because what I do now is I kind of like try and remember to like check all my plants once a week, but I often forget. And then a couple of weeks will go by. And then by that time, some of my plants are very parched.
So I'm like, you know, maybe this will work. Maybe I can like test this out on a few plants and have it remind me when to water them and see if they appreciate it. So I do so far like the app. It has a good interface. It seems to have a good like photo recognition system. Like you take a picture of your plant and there's a ton of information that you give it about your plants. Like what kind of pot it's in, how big the pot is, how often you water it. Like previously, like when was the last time you watered it, all kinds of stuff. You take a picture of it and then it automatically like tells you what your plant. So like there's some plant ID apps out there that I know other people have used. I haven't tried them, but this one seems pretty good. It kind of identifies what plant it is.
And then, yeah, so you say if, you know, how far away is it from a window? How much direct light does it get? What type of soil is it in? Does it have drainage? Where in your house is it? Does it live inside or outside or sometimes inside, sometimes outside? And you give it all this information and then you, so I plug this all in for one of my aloe plants, for instance, and then.
And it told me that I should water it again in two weeks. So I'm going to let it remind me to water this plant in two weeks. I'll water it. And I don't know, give it some more info and see if it adapts to my particular plant's needs and if it works. I've tried plant apps in the past and haven't really liked any of the ones I've tried. Part of the problem is I have too many plants, I think, for it to really work that well. I don't think I can put all my plants in this thing and manage it that way.
But I feel like maybe some of my plants that I struggle, because especially plants that don't need water that often, like maybe once a month, I have a really hard time remembering to water them. So it'll be like three or four weeks to go by. I'll be like, when did I water that plant last? Does it need water? It's a little damp. I don't know. It's hard. Even for, I feel like I'm a seasoned plant professional at this point. And even I struggle with some of those things. So Greg, the plant app. I'm trying it out so far. I like it. I can give you all an update. Maybe I'll take it. You can only put in five plants. I think, so you can pay. There's Greg and then there's Super Greg.
Okay. And yeah, I think everyone only gives you four plants and then you can do a trial of Super Greg, which I'm not going to do at this point. If I really love this, I don't know how much it is. Maybe I'll pay for it. Maybe I'll say nah. Super Greg, that's amazing. I like all the little plant icons and stuff on here are really cute. I do think it maybe does more than just remind you to water your plants, but that's how I'm using it at the moment. So we'll see. Well, this is a great reminder to me to water my plants. And it can be a reminder to our listeners as well. Also, to dust the leaves of your plants. Yeah, you gotta do that. Let that light in.
Now that we're getting into spring, your houseplants start to need more water. And that is not great for me because now I'm starting to do more outside gardening, which means my plants inside are just naturally going to kind of get neglected. On top of them needing more retention now, it's kind of a bad, it doesn't bode well for some of my plants, although most of them are doing fine. That'll be fine. They're tough. Don't be so hard on yourself. Yeah, so I'll let you know what I think of Greg. All right, we'll get a Greg update in a couple weeks. I believe that brings us to an end, dear listeners.
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I assume you did us a solid and that's already happened. And you've already left us a five-star review. The only type of review we accept. Yeah, if you haven't, shame on you. Get on that. We need some more five-star reviews. It boosts our ego, if nothing else. Also, I recently saw this horrible review for the Date with Dateline podcast about how they're too ugly or something. If you wrote that review, you're not allowed to listen to this podcast. You're not allowed to listen to any podcast ever again. You have to turn in your ears. You're not allowed to have ears anymore. That was ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.
Do you think I have a podcast because I have a face for TV? No. Clearly it doesn't matter. So shut up and keep your reviews for yourselves. It's a podcast. We're not. Oh, my God. Seriously. If we were hot, we would be making money being hot. Not podcasting. Yeah. Think. Think before you write reviews, people. Oh, my goodness. All right. Thank you, everyone. And keep barking. Bye. Bye.