Dr. David Marcus: How Conflict Affects Kids at Every Age

Children are exquisitely aware of how their parents feel, David Marcus says, long before they understand a word of what is happening. Pick up a tense adult's baby and the baby cries. Everything else in this episode follows from that.David Marcus is a clinical psychologist in Cincinnati, with a doctorate and forty years in practice. He earned his PhD in clinical psychology at the University of Louisville and did a post-doctoral fellowship at the University of Cincinnati's Department of Psychiatry in self psychology and psychoanalytic thinking, which is where a lot of his framework in this episode comes from. A great deal of his career has been custody work and high-conflict divorce alongside the family courts, and he specializes broadly in families under stress. He hangs his credentials in his office where clients cannot see them from where they sit, because he wants the room to belong to them. He has also written a book, Parent Rx: Prescriptive Wisdom, Tips and Strategies for Communication with Your Child, which came out of parents recording his sessions and telling him they wished they had him in their ear on a Thursday night.He works through the developmental picture. Up to about four, a child feels the tension without understanding it, and because parents argue about parenting, often decides it is about them. To make their parents okay, children take on a role: pleaser, appeaser, placater, sometimes messenger. David calls that a not-me situation, and describes a client he saw at ten who came back at thirty with depression and a relationship he was still appeasing his way through, and what empty depression means for a person who never got to individuate. Older children step between the parents. Tweens and teens stop being able to say they had a good time at the other house without triggering a reaction, so they stop talking to either parent about any of it.On divided loyalty and reunification therapy he is unusually frank, saying it is among the work he finds most difficult in forty years and that the success rate is poor. He explains why: a parent who is currently winning has no motivation to engage, so he had to go to the judges in his county and ask them to strike the clause preventing him from testifying, because the leverage is the only thing that changes behavior. He tells the story of a thirteen-year-old who planned a ski trip with his father in session and came back from three minutes in the waiting room saying he did not want to go. He describes what he looks for in a young child's drawing, hypervigilant eyes, a house with no chimney and no windows, and how he opens with children by asking what is important to them rather than about their parents. The last stretch is his own framework: a soothing presence is someone who is okay when you are not; indifference rather than hate is the actual opposite of love, which is why the hatred keeps two people bound together; and the filled-up and emptied-out model, where any reaction is coming from the here and now, the history, or a much deeper level the other person cannot see, and all three have to be emptied out before anybody can hear you.As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.🎓 What you'll learnHow conflict shows up differently at four, at ten, and at fifteenThe pleaser, appeaser, and messenger roles, and why they follow a child into adulthoodEmpty depression, and the client who was still playing his childhood role at thirtyWhy a custody dispute is the wrong moment to begin reunification therapyWhat a clinician reads in a young child's drawing of their familyA soothing presence: someone who is okay when you are not, and why the word is presenceWhy indifference, not hatred, is the opposite of love, and what that means for your caseFilled up and emptied out: the three levels every reaction is really coming from⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 How conflict shows up at each age 3:00 The pleaser, the appeaser, the messenger, and empty depression 7:00 Tweens and teens: when it stops being safe to talk 9:00 Divided loyalty, and why reunification therapy is such difficult work 11:00 Early signs, and what he reads in a child's drawing 15:00 A ski trip, and three minutes in the waiting room 19:00 Why children are hardwired to want both parents 25:00 The soothing presence, and why indifference is the goal 29:00 Internalization, regression, and why "I'd never do that" fails under stress 33:00 Filled up and emptied out: three levels of a reaction 41:00 A common emotional language, and Parent RxKeep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 🔗 Dr. David Marcus and Parent Rx: https://parentrx.org/About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.