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Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline. Today, I'm joined by Lester Holt to discuss his episode, Deadly Intersection. If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here. Later, we will have an extra clip from Lester's interview with Sarah Rucker. She is the friend who introduced Keith to Jackie. But first, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Lester. Hey, Andrea. Thanks for doing this for having me on. Sure. Yeah, this was a really interesting episode.
It was a national news story that I actually remembered. So I remember you covering it on Nightly News. I loved seeing the slightly older clips of you, not too old, you know, talking about the case. Yeah, we talked about that case a lot because it really touched a lot of fears people have about homeless people, about people collecting money on the streets. And then, I mean, someone killed because they were a good Samaritan. So that's, I think, why it became national so quickly.
Lester, just give us a really quick overview of the case. Sure. Jacqueline Smith is riding in a car with her husband, Keith, and his daughter, Valeria. 911 gets a call from Keith that says, my wife has just been stabbed by panhandlers. Medical authorities pronounce her dead, and this launched a huge manhunt. They eventually find a couple of suspects along the way that seemed promising at first, but ultimately were not. But the arrest was finally made, and it was the husband, Keith, in this case. His daughter, Valeria, was also suspected in the killing.
And how they got them, I think, is perhaps the most fascinating part of the story. They used a wiretap. And also just some video evidence of where they were and where they said they were that night. And we should say that Valeria pleaded guilty to accessory to murder after the fact in exchange for testifying against her father. Keith was found guilty of first-degree murder. Yeah, and we're going to get into the video on so many fronts because I truly think Keith doesn't realize how many cameras are everywhere in the world. And that was his downfall, to say the least. You know, Lester, this really...
It sort of got you thinking, like as I was watching it, about how we feel about homeless people and about, you know, panhandlers. And at face value, though, of course, Lester, it seemed horrible. Even Oprah. I mean, I don't remember that. I don't remember Oprah weighing in, but I was really surprised to see that. Yeah, well, you know, Oprah was a longtime news anchor in Baltimore back in the 80s, I think. So she still has Baltimore connections, I assume. But yeah, she had put a tweet out there about this case and about, you know, basically saying, look, I've, you know, I've given a thousand times to panhandlers on the street. And, you know, now, you know, I'll think twice. And, you know.
That's a, you know, that's probably the worst thing for people of this population is to have someone, especially that stature, to, you know, kind of lump them all up in one group. And I don't just, you know, single out Oprah. I think a lot of people were probably feeling this way. And remember, Baltimore had a pretty lousy reputation back then. The murder rate was soaring. So there were a lot of reasons for people to kind of buy into the story and believe the story. And it gave people an excuse to be wary of people without homes. Yeah, I mean, Keith's lie had a big impact.
Oh, I mean, look at this population of homeless people who became, you know, casualties of this story that he came up with, a story like that. It just didn't stand up at all. And I realize it's a personal question, right? Everyone kind of deals with these things in their own way. Like, do you open your window? Do you give them money? That was why the question I think was so important about, you know, hey, is Jackie the kind of person that would do this? I think a lot of people have asked that question because it becomes the root of this whole thing. Why would someone roll down their window at an essentially deserted intersection?
Reining. Reining and encountering someone who's looking for money. And especially once you've given them money, the last thing you imagine is that they're going to attack you. So I think that was one of the many things that began to turn heads, made police kind of go back and look at some things. How could this happen? Why would something like this happen? And every law enforcement person I interviewed.
I said, have you ever had a case of a homeless person or a panhandler attacking anyone unprovoked? And they all shook their heads no. So that was one of the first little bits of the story where things started to crumble a little bit. I am so curious, Lester, what you thought of Keith and Valeria's interview with the local news that they did shortly after Jackie died, where the news reporter is doing a very serious story about what has happened to Jackie and Keith was there, Valeria was there. How did you think of their responses? It's a difficult one because it gets down to that idea. What can you make of another person's grief about whether they're crying enough or not enough? And there was a part where Valeria...
Daria, the daughter in this case, she's kind of nestled into her father's arms as he's tearfully telling the story. Her body language suggests that she's crying, but at the same time, her eyes don't really give much away. And I feel horrible describing it that way because it is a, you know, from many stories you've covered, Andrea, it's kind of a fool's errand to decide someone's guilt or innocence based on whether they have enough tears. But I remember looking at that, a pretty long chunk of it, and saying, you know, I feel like you're trying to convince me of something, and it's not in a good way. Yeah, and I do think that is a bit of a tell. When someone is sort of crying but no tears are coming out, I always think that's kind of a bad sign, you know, or can be. And I also, it was brought up very briefly about that Valeria had a substance abuse problem at one point. How was that reporting done? Yeah, friends of Jackie, police had mentioned that she had some kind of addiction and that that might have been a source of friction, that her father was helping her out. You know, she was going through bad times. He provided a place for her to live at one point. And that was irritating Jackie and their speculation that that.
Bad blood might have made, you know, valeria a prime suspect. And you talked about this friction, Lester. I was shocked at the wedding section when they talked about Keith and Jackie's wedding. I mean, you want to talk about fireworks at a wedding. Like, this is supposed to be one of the happiest days of their lives. And I mean, the stuff that they're talking about, like, what kind of wedding is this? It was messy by all accounts. And I felt horrible. As I was talking to her best friend, you know, Sarah, we talked a little bit about, you know, this is her day. This is her moment. Who wants to be that person that's going to rob a bride of her moment? But at the same time, it was informative in terms of forming this.
You know, what was the extent of the relationship here between Jackie and her new family in this case? And, you know, that's something that police definitely looked at as they tried to discern a motive. Absolutely, especially when you're bringing Valeria into the possible motive here. What do they believe was the motive in the end? Was it money or was it that Keith was upset that Valeria was upset? Yeah, it was money. In this case, you know, Jackie had an $800,000 life insurance policy.
That in itself doesn't make you a murderer. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money, and that's what police kind of zeroed in on. Personally, I've always felt there was more to this story in terms of a motivating factor, but I'm not a police officer. I want to talk about—so you just said Jackie had this big policy, and she probably had some decent savings and everything. I just want to talk about how smart she was. She's an electrical engineer, and she's at, what, the Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground? Yeah, yeah.
And Jackie sounds just like this genius, right? With math and numbers and engineering and everything. Yes, it was apparently, I think even Keith described it as very sophisticated work she was doing that he couldn't quite explain. But this was a case, a very, very smart lady. It was kind of described that she's the kind of person that doesn't get close to you, doesn't open up right away. But when she does, she's all in. But she had developed this great reputation at the Proving Ground and was just, by all accounts, adored. Yeah, we always pass that Aberdeen Proving Ground on our way to Navy football games when we're going down the interstate. So, yeah, I mean, so she was clearly loved. She clearly...
had a lot of fun. You know, they talked about how she would, you know, dance the night away at events. And of course, her dancing, you know, that actually comes into play later as a big clue for investigators. Yeah, we have this video, this surveillance video in the bar in which she and Valeria and Keith are all sitting there and they don't move. Yeah, the idea of this, you know, dance the night away just wasn't playing that night. I would love to have been a fly on the wall. I mean, no police would have as to what words were even exchanged during that awkward silence that appeared to exist for quite some time at that dance hall. And this is what I was getting at at the beginning when I said,
It appears Keith is unaware that there are cameras everywhere you go. So once they start, the law enforcement starts digging in to, you know, what was going on that night. I mean, first of all, they find out he wasn't where he said he was. And they find that video on camera at the hospital. He's talking to 911, but he's standing at the ambulance bay at the emergency room. And I know that I'm standing there. I'm going to be dragging my wife or carrying my wife or whoever I'm bringing.
Into the ER and screaming, we need help now. Right. Running in or having a panicked demeanor. There was no panic. Yeah, but the suspicion was, as horrible as it sounds, is that he's waiting for her to die. Oh, I didn't even think about that. That's horrible. I don't know if she was lifeless at that point. I don't want to get too gruesome here. But I do know that when they matched up that video, that was a huge tell. I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah, I mean, there was sort of a theme of Keith's words versus his actions. Right. They weren't matching up. No, they weren't matching up at all.
You know, I think you can understand why he might have left the scene of the crime. He called 911. She's at the hospital now. And help is literally steps away. But how are they supposed to know inside the ER? Right. I think one of the more fascinating things to me, if I can get ahead of you, is, you know, they talked to Keith on different occasions. And for a long time, they never let on to him that he might be a suspect in this thing. I kind of looked at it the lens of, you know, he's finding his footing. He's finding how much room he has to operate what they know, what they suspect, what they think. But he and Valeria did a great job of sticking to their story. They did. And it was pretty consistent.
They did. And then they brought in the female detective. I know this is a very serious story, obviously. But she was cracking me up, right? She was tough. She was tough, man. I was ready to confess to anything. I was like, don't mess with this woman. She would scare me in an interrogation room.
Yeah, I've always found interrogation room scenes just incredible to watch the different styles of police and how they how they get there. But they had clearly rattled Valeri. This is going back to the day the police basically raided her home. They came in with a warrant, you know, and they began really putting the pressure on her. And she was ticked. You could tell she was ticked. This idea of being, you know, brought from her home, being asked these questions. But she didn't fold. It was interesting. She didn't fold. No, I mean, I guess you got to. Yeah, she certainly was strong in that way. Not that that's a good thing, given how the story ends. But she was.
When we come back, we've got an extra clip from Lester's interview with Sarah Rucker. She talks about how difficult it was to accept that her friend Keith could have been her other friend Jackie's killer and her guilt about introducing them. Over the years, I've met people whose lives were changed forever in a single moment. In my new podcast, Before and After, I explore what happens after that decisive moment. Personal, powerful conversations with Colin Kaepernick, Jeremy Renner, Gabby Giffords, and others. Join me wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to all episodes of Before and After with Lester Holt now wherever you get your podcasts.
The leaves are changing. The weather's turning. It's a perfect time to get cozy and listen to a few stories. Since it's Halloween, of course, it'd have to be mysterious, suspenseful, perhaps a little creepy. Join me for an all-new Morrison Mysteries featuring the stories of Edgar Allan Poe. Coming soon, wherever you get your podcasts. Listen now. Lester, there were so many smart investigative tactics that happened in this case. And, you know, after Valeria, you know, is in the interrogation room, they, you know, they've tapped their phones, right, of course.
They're waiting and waiting. And then eventually that call happens between Valerie and Keith. And she's saying, her dad, she's saying, you cannot do me like this. Yeah. And he's trying to calm her down. And it's so fascinating to be a fly on the wall in an investigation like this where things are happening. And it feels like you're there in the moment. She's just crushed. And she did feel like she was being kind of left out there. And that's when he said, you know, I'm going to bring you something or take something to you.
I could not believe it when they intercepted the package with the phone. That was really slick. I'd never seen that one before. I was going to send you the phone because we're betting that you're going to give this phone to her. And that's exactly what happened. They rewired the phone, if you will. And then sure enough, and put it back in the mail system. It gets mailed to her. Unbelievable. I mean, that is like right out of a movie when you see something like that. Yeah, I'd never seen that tactic. I hadn't either. Okay, so every once in a while, you get little moments in Dateline where...
You laugh or maybe you're allowed to laugh because we do deal with such serious subject matter. However, as a Canadian, when Keith called the airline and said, I need a ticket to Canada, I was on the plane watching this and I actually started laughing. The great big city of Canada. Right. He goes, wait, you need a passport to Canada? Yeah, the way he said it. And I think I said something to the prosecutor about it. It was something like, you know, I mean, you just have to sit back and laugh and admit it. Yeah. And it was funny, too, because I always, you know, I type up my notes as I'm watching just so I, you know.
remember everything that I'm seeing in the shows. And right after I typed it up and was laughing on the plane, then the prosecutor said exactly the same thing. Yeah. Do I need a passport? Yes, you need a passport. I want to call him a dummy in this moment. Well, he also pointed out something we've all discovered is that criminals are not the brightest lights. Keith made a lot of mistakes in this one, for sure. And that's actually good for the good guys in this case. I mean, the way that the takedown in the end and how they got there was just breathtaking and its sophistication and how quickly things moved. When the investigator was in the vehicle on the side of the interstate.
And I realized, you know, it's an interview for Dateline. But I actually felt like he was ready to go take him down like in that moment as I'm watching. You know, I felt like it was almost like happening, even though I know it wasn't. Well, and remember, this is a police officer from a different jurisdiction. He's a Texas trooper who's now caught up in this thing. And I'm sure it's probably exciting for him, but a little scary. You're taking down this person, you know, by yourself. You don't know if he's armed or what potential threat that he may pose. But he's sitting there watching white cars go by. I was feeling the tension just like I was watching some kind of an action movie. That's what I'm saying. Like, even though I know that was an interview.
I could feel the tension. You hit it on the nose. That's exactly how I was feeling. And then because you had the surveillance video right afterwards, it really felt like you were in the moment because then you see him telling them to get out of the vehicle. And you're like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, I remember he was just minutes. It was 20 minutes from the Mexican border. So they had a very short amount of time to put the wheels, literally the wheels in motion to make this arrest. And also the, you know, the investigator sitting there not wanting, those cars are zooming by. You know, you have to be an eagle eye. I realized he had a certain plate, right, that he was looking for, which probably helped like a different state.
I don't know, he probably at the time didn't realize what an important role he was playing, that trooper. But it was an amazing piece of police work. And, you know, it wasn't the end of the story, but it was everything that set up the end of the story. Yeah, yeah. I did a Dateline that was in Canada where a guy got a private jet and the jet was literally fired up on the runway, you know, ready to go with the killer. And just like in the movies, you know, there they were, like to stop the plane from taking off. You know, it's those nail-biter moments that are, you know. They happen. They really do happen. So you.
Lester, you have an extra clip from Jackie's friend, Sarah Rucker, who really struggled to believe that Keith could be capable of something like this. Yeah, this was a close group. They call themselves the divas, the friends of Jackie's. And yeah, when this is all happening, they're all kind of looking back like this couldn't be Keith. The Keith we know, he would never do anything like that. I don't want to fully characterize how they saw it as a team. But individually, I think some of them were definitely questioning, would Keith be capable of something like this? Sarah talks about that, having brought these two people together. And then for this.
Horrific ending that no one could possibly have thought of. Takes a life of rent. Here, you listen. Was there a special burden with having been the person who brought these two individuals together? Yes. The acceptance of the person that you loved and thought you were going to keep your girlfriend safe and love her unconditionally is now being accused and has been convicted of murdering her. You have to live with that guilt, which I do. And it's just still hard to believe that these are two people that I loved and I thought were happy and now...
She's gone and he's got life in prison. You called Keith, your brother, and you called Jackie, your sister? Yes. It doesn't cut much deeper than that. It's a heavy load you're going to have to carry. I'm going to have to carry it for the rest of my life. Did it make you more hesitant to think of him as a killer? It may. It hesitates him, but when you have evidence pointing directly in your face, you have to accept it. And I finally accepted it when they said the guilty verdict. She got her time. He got her time. His time. And it was more like, you know, Alul did what it was supposed to do.
And our killer is now serving life in prison. So you have to accept it. So I would say to Sarah, guilt is a wasted emotion. You should have no guilt. You did nothing wrong. You brought two people together that you thought were a great match. And who on earth would know that someone would be capable of something like that in this situation? Well said. So, yeah. Up next, your questions from social media.
Lester, there were a ton of social media questions about this episode. A lot of people were watching from Baltimore. They remembered when this took place. Several people even wrote that they knew Jackie. This case, as we've been talking about, had a big impact on the community. I'm going to read one message from Tanda Ridgely. She wrote on Facebook, I personally knew this couple. They attended my church for several years. Our congregation was heartbroken about Sister Jackie's death and equally shocked about Brother Keith's role in the crime. She was an intelligent, caring, and warm person. She was very encouraging to me after my mother's passing. May God continue to heal and comfort the family.
And then I'll just read you another one really quickly. This one's from superfan and Dateline ambassador, Netsi Smith, on Facebook. Hey, Dateliners watching from Maryland, very familiar with this tragic story. My sister was on duty in the ER when Jackie came to the hospital. Very sad. So clearly, Lester, this had a big impact. Yeah, it's, you know, Baltimore is a big city, but it's not that huge a city that, you know, people wouldn't know each other in many cases and neighborhoods. And I think, as we kind of touched on, this story, you know, is a stain that no community needs, and certainly not this one, given its history of violence.
Yeah. All right. So we have an audio question, Lester, that we got about Jackie's family. This is from Bethany. Let's take a listen. Hi, Bethany here, longtime watcher and now podcast listener. It was so great to see Lester on a full episode. Great job to speak. Just a quick question. I was curious if Jacqueline's sons had any thoughts about Keith.
Thanks again. Well, thanks very much. You know, I love Dateline. I love now that I have a chance to do more, you know, full two-hour shows. So look for more of them in the future. But to your question, we reached out to Jackie's sons. They decided they didn't want to participate in the program. Our hearts go out to her sons for what they've had to endure. Lester, we have another audio question, and this one is about motive. Yes, the episode tonight, I never did hear why the father killed his wife. I'd just like to know if y'all know. Thank you.
Thanks for calling in. Investigators believe that money was the motive. The feeling was that he had done this to basically improve his standard of living after her death. Yeah, Lester, I think there was so much going on with the investigation. You know, it's one of those, like, Fast and Furious shows that, like, you're... No, I get it. There were a lot of moving parts in this story, and that was one of them. Lester, finally, we got several questions about Valeria. The question that we saw the most was this one. This one came from Pearl Arlene Wainwright.
The stepdaughter never had any tears when she was crying. We talked about this earlier. Lois Davis, not a tear in her eye during the interview, standing beside her dad. And then Lori Jarazberger, that daughter is fake crying. No tears, exactly what you and I discussed. Yeah, and remember, you know, authorities had some of the same questions, mostly centered on the idea of why she was doing all these press conferences and what they hoped to gain. At one point in one of them, I think you may have heard, he talks about some legislation he wants about controlling panhandling, which seemed a little far afield given the immediate situation they were dealing with. But yeah, everybody comes back to behavior. It's a common thing. But one thing we've learned from police, certainly.
doing these stories over the years is be careful of getting Target fixated on, you know, their appearance and their words, you know, out in the field or the ultimate determinator of whether they're guilty or not. But it's interesting how a lot of us kind of came upon that particular thing. Human nature, right? And also, you know, regardless of what people were thinking when they were watching, the detectives followed the evidence. You know, they didn't follow their guts. They didn't follow tears. They followed...
Cold, hard facts. Yeah. And you know what they also didn't do? They didn't fall into the trap of the husband did it. Now, ultimately, you know, we know he did. But they definitely stood back and said on several occasions, look, you know, we have evidence now, but not enough to take us there. They were determined to get, you know, an arrest and a conviction in this case. Yeah, they kept going. And always interesting, Lester, when you have sort of a regular news story, it appeared at the time, you know, intersects with a Dateline murder mystery, right? That it's so much more than what it appeared on the surface. Thank you so much for this really, really interesting episode. Thanks for talking Dateline. Sure. And thanks to all the folks who are watching. Appreciate it.
Yeah, and that is it for Talking Dateline this week. Thank you for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And you can watch the video version of Talking Dateline on Peacock or YouTube or subscribe to the NBC News app. And we will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
Friday night on an all-new Dateline. I'm sorry, the way you had to die. Someone she knew, a darkness she never saw. He was obsessed with her. Whoever did this knew what they were doing. This one was going to rock the community. An all-new Dateline, Friday night at 9, 8 central, only on NBC.