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Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. You guys, who is excited to go to our love show?
Radio City! Radio City Music Hall in New York City. We'll see you there, or you're a square. Exactly, go get your tickets, go to Ticketmaster.
Go to Ticketmaster, and that is the only place that we're going to leave you, because there are other sites, unfortunately, where people can scoop up tickets and sell them for prices. We did not approve the prices if they look crazy to you. Yeah, if they look nuts to you, it wasn't us. Well, me, much like Shaggy, it wasn't me.
But it's going to be fun. It's going to be a lot of fun. Maybe we'll do a kickline, you don't know. We are absolutely doing a kickline, so.
Yeah, absolutely. Why should I have that? I'm positive. I'll be sending you a chair.
I'll do one from a chair. Yeah, yeah, you can go from a chair. But Debbie's already bringing her tap shoes. Yeah.
By none other than Patricia Cornwell. The Patricia. Our girl Patricia. It's such a fun book.
It's the beginning of the Case Carpata series. Loved it. With the show coming out, this is a great place to start, because the show covers this book. It's the first book.
At least partially does. So, definitely a cool place to look. And it's in paperback. It can fit in your back pocket.
It's a fit-able. It's a fit-able book in your back pocket, and it's a good one to start with. We had Chef Riley Meehan on, and we talked about all things Patricia, and all things Post-Mortem, and all things delicious food. It's a really good episode.
I love the bonus episodes, because we can be a little more Lucy and silly. It was fun. It was fun. And we filmed that one.
That one's on actual video. Yes. So you're going to get to watch it as well. We're going to try to do that every now and again.
Yeah, we're going to do it as much as we possibly can. It's easier with bonus episodes, because the content is a little more palatable for a little looser. Yeah, exactly. And also, if you're looking for more books to satisfy your craving for knowledge.
Yeah, I know this girl who wrote a few books. Do you know her? I do. And you can get The Butcher Legacy at butcherlegacy.com.
It was a really nice opportunity for you to not say, I am her. I thought that was implied, but I wish you had stood on business with it. I am her. Thank you.
I'm horrible about that for the rest of my life. Yep, going to do that. So Patricia read it. She liked it.
She thinks Kay and Ren could be BFFs. She thinks that it's the bee's knees. I can lay down and pass over to the other side now. I won't.
I was going to say, I have a lot to do, so don't do that, please. So there's that. And you can, you know, when the paperback comes out, which won't come out for a little while, you can stick that in your back pocket with those boredom. Oh my god, you guys have a lot going on in your pockets.
So many back pockets. You guys are going to need those utility pants. You really are. Get some cargo pants.
Yeah, just throw them in there. Yeah, if you're a mood reader, that's the dream. Yeah, just you're going for it. So I am a mood reader.
I'm a mood reader. I get that. Yep. Just throwing this out there since we're talking about books.
I just finished Memorials by Richard Chismar, who also likes The Butcher Legacy. Another one. Another one. I love Richard Chismar, and Memorials blew my fucking socks off.
Wow. Go read that book. Okay. Go read that book.
Go read that book. Okay. I finished listening to it on the way home the other day, and I was in the car by myself, and at one point I went, holy shit, out loud. Go read that book.
I love it. I'm telling you, it's an awesome book. It's like Appalachia horror. Oh, fuck.
He does suburban horror. I mean, on the front cover, Stephen King blurbed his book and said no one does suburban horror like Richard Chismar, and I fully agree with my friend Stephen. Wow. What a feather in your cap.
What a feather. Can you imagine? No. I don't think Stephen would say that about me.
Good for Richard. I can't put Richard's shoes on in that one. I've gotten that one. I'm not sure what Stephen would say about me.
Maybe someday we'll find out. Stephen, tell us. Stephen, let us know. Stephen, come on the show.
Let's see. But yeah, but he's right. So if you're looking for a cool suburban horror with some Appalachia shit in it, that's going to Lindbergh baby kidnapping today. Oh, shit.
One of our most requested cases. People have been dying for this one since we started the show. Yeah, and I'm shocked that we just never covered it. Yeah, it's actually very surprising.
For some reason, I think I thought we had, but I know we haven't. We definitely covered it on the crime countdown and stuff, so I think we talked about it. And I think we talked about it very briefly when we did the, was it the Sumner Children? Yeah, I think we definitely have mentioned it.
It's come up. Yeah, I mean, if you talk about your crime, it comes up. Yeah, it's a big case. It's one of the biggest kidnapping cases, and one of the cases, really, in history.
But we just want to be clear here that I guess there has been some things that have come out about Charles Lindbergh, but have definitely tarnished his once all-American spotless reputation, I would say. So I just want to be clear that that sucks, that he's not great. Yeah, he's pretty fucking terrible. But we just wanted to cover the case because, one, you guys have requested it forever, for years, and two, it's a fascinating case about a baby.
Right, it's not about Charles Lindbergh, right? Yeah, it's not about, at the end of the day, it's about what happened to his son. So, but yeah, we just want to make, that has come to our attention through researching this, and we just want to mention it. So he's definitely got a tarnished reputation, for sure.
Which I wasn't aware of until recently. Same. But yeah, it's a crazy case. The more you know.
And we will be getting a little more into probably his son's reputation in part two, I would say, when we're talking about theories and shit. Okay, cool. So we will touch upon it more, but we just want to put that out there. All right.
Yeah, so let's go. Show me to me, Rachel. Am I dumb, or is this unsolved? No, it's solved.
Oh, it is solved. There's somebody that was caught. But there is a mystery surrounding it, though. Okay.
So that's something interesting. And the whole thing is just very spooky, the way it all happened, and still doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah. I knew there was weird elements to it.
There's definitely weird elements to it. So we're going to start with who Charles Lindbergh was, because the whole thing around this is that Charles Lindbergh was a very well-known man. Yeah. So Charles Augustus Lindbergh.
He was born February 4th, 1902. What is he? Is he a Pisces? I gotta get better.
If my teacher's listening right now, she's fucking kidding. I gotta get better. February 4th. People don't want me to get better.
They like hearing you say the Aquarius. I'm so bad at this stuff. So he's an Aquarius. He was born in Detroit, Michigan.
He was the only child born to Evangeline and Charles Lindbergh seniors. Names were just better back then. Evangeline and Charles had Charles Jr. Oh my god, Evangeline.
I would never fuck with a bitch named Evangeline. Oh, what a name. It just makes me think of Princess and the Frog when Raymel is singing about his Evangeline. Oh, I still haven't seen that before.
We gotta watch it. I know, I do gotta watch it. Because the girls say that I'm one of the characters. You're Lottie.
Yeah, I'll take it. Lottie's awesome. I know her. Yeah, Lottie's the best.
But he grew up on a small farm in rural Little Falls, Minnesota. And Lindbergh remembered his childhood as pretty idyllic. Nice. He had a pretty great childhood.
With a mom named Evangeline. How could it not be? He said, I spent hours lying on my back in high timothy and red top, hidden from passerby. White cumulus clouds drift overhead, staring into the sky.
Damn, that's fucking poetic as hell. But however charming and beautiful those early years were, it's not like they didn't have some difficulty in them. In 1905, when Charles was just three years old, the family farm burned to the ground. Three years later, his parents separated Evangeline and Charles.
Which is very uncolding. And Charles would end up living the rest of his childhood with his mother. Okay. Did he see his dad?
He did. So they relocated to Washington, D.C. after the divorce. So he really only saw his dad sporadically, which definitely probably had an influence on how he parented later.
But for most of his adult life, Charles Lindbergh was an American icon. That's part of this case. People know who he is. He was an American icon, but he's a tarnished American icon now, with what we know.
Things that have come out over time. He was an aviation guy. That's the technical term for it. Aviation guy.
Aviator. He had this ability to take control of his own narrative. Okay. Which I think a lot of people that are successful, for better or worse, in life, they are able to take control of their own narrative.
Yeah. And could frame themselves a certain way. So he would frame himself as very heroic. He was just really good at kind of putting that out there.
That's also very Aquarian in nature. Oh, there you go. Yeah. I mean, reporters, the American people, they're all very happy to accept this narrative as well.
And it's not that he lied about his past or anything like that. But given the choice between just bland reality and a little embellishment, he had a very Gatsby-esque way about him. I think he'd kind of overstate the facts. He would minimize inconvenient truths.
Like, for example, when speaking of his family life after his parents' divorce, he wrote, they continued to care for each other, although they were seldom together. And it's possible that that's how he remembered things. But they cared for each other, they just weren't together a lot. But historian Stanley Shapiro kind of challenges that part of his history.
He said his father was a stern man imbued with righteous populism. The parental expectations placed upon him in Lindbergh were severe. So this idyllic parent kind of situation, like father, it might not have been totally true, but who knows? That's what he believed.
Yeah. It's his reality. So regardless of how they treated one another on the occasions that they were together, his parents' attitudes and expectations of their son were definitely at odds. In the eyes of Evangeline, Charles could do absolutely no wrong.
Just perfect child. Kind of like showered him with attention and affection. Like, it's a girl's child. And so Shapiro wrote, she lavished attention on Charles, leaving little room in his adolescent life for anything else.
Charles Sr., on the other hand, was very rigid in his beliefs and how he presented himself to the world. He was a U.S. congressman from 1907 to 1917. And he stressed that his son's, and I don't think this is a terribly bad outlook, so he really wanted his son to embody the principles of stoicism, like be unshakable.
And he encouraged him to be, among other things, thrifty, self-sufficient, and intensely private, career in politics. He was a congressman, he's like, this is what I've got. I don't think those are necessarily bad. I think he's probably a little overbearing with it.
The last one could be cheeky. Yeah. But according to Shapiro, the conflicting messages that he got from his parents left him in this weird paradox of not understanding what he was supposed to be. Because those are two very opposite ends of the spectrum.
Yeah, because his mom's like, you're a star, you're the best. Everybody should know how amazing you are. And his dad's like, be so fucking private and so weak. And he's like, what?
Hello? He's like, on a middle ground, perhaps? So he had this deep desire for fame, because he was like, I can achieve it. I know, and he wanted recognition as well.
But he also wanted to demand privacy for himself. Which is tough, yeah. So as a result of his father's career in politics and his mother's desire to provide her son for literally everything she could, any opportunity, Charles spent his youth bouncing from one school to another, eventually attending more than a dozen, before graduating from Little Falls High School in 1918. From there, he enrolled at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he studied engineering.
Oh, wow. But he dropped out in the middle of his sophomore year because he wanted to pursue an interest in aviation. Okay. Which would have been a good plan, yeah.
After leaving the University of Wisconsin, he enrolled at the Nebraska Aircraft Corporation's Flying School in Lincoln, Nebraska. Not just going to flying school. Yeah, just becoming an aviator. Like, I'm going to talk about it.
It was, like, such a badass thing. Oh, yeah. I had such a mystique to it. Yeah.
But he started learning the basics of aircraft maintenance and would eventually learn how to pilot an airplane. It's at this time that his heroic biography starts to take shape. Like, this is where it all kind of began. In 1924, after just two years in Nebraska, he enlisted in the National Guard and eventually became captain of the Missouri National Guard.
From there, he continued his aviation career. He took a job with the Postal Service, where he would fly mail back and forth between St. Louis, St. Louis, and Chicago.
Yeah. Now, although air travel is very commonplace today, like, look up in the sky right now. It's not going so well, but it's common. It's not going swimmingly right now.
It's very common. There was a time when the possibility of traveling by airplane was completely off limits to anyone outside of the military. That's crazy. Yeah.
It wasn't until 1914 that commercial air travel was made available to the public. And even then, it was so expensive that it prohibited most people from being able to. And it was very, very limited in where you could actually travel by plane. I'm sure, yeah.
Those restrictions and the truly, I mean, even now, flying is remarkable. It's magic. I try not to think about it too much when I'm in here. When I'm on land, I think about it a lot.
It's remarkable. And especially then, it made air travel at that time especially seem so exciting and adventurous to be in public. It really was that, like, we're sliding through the sky. You're flying in a goddamn place.
You're flying in. You're flying in. The amount of pilots I follow, not because they're hot, but because, like, I should be clear about that. Men and women.
Not because they're hot. They're, hey, they're all hot in some way because they're flying a plane through the sky, so that's pretty amazing. The hot quality. But I love following pilots because they make me feel better about flying.
Yeah. And, like, kudos to them for taking a second to make me feel better about flying. But to a man like Charles Lindbergh, with his deep interest in mechanical engineering and, you know, this desperate need for fame and recognition, it wasn't a surprise that he was drawn to this field. No.
In the 1920s and 30s, as aviation technology was advancing, air shows and flying competitions just exploded in popularity. Papa loves an air show. He does. Loves an air show.
He loves it. I've been to so many air shows. Me too. That's a good...
And while some air shows focus on aviators and others performing, like, super daring stunts... Yes, very cool. Wing walking, barnstorming... Barnstorming, I looked it up, is they would, like, fly to, like, a field.
Like, they would essentially just land in a field where, like, a barn field kind of thing. Okay. And they would take off and start doing these, like, crazy stunts, like, just, like, storming the barn kind of thing. Like, it was named like that.
It should be so cool. It was. Was it wing walking, like, while it was flying? Yeah.
Shut up. Oh, yeah. Wing walking is crazy if you look at videos. Why?
Yeah. It's nuts. So, other competitions... So, they would do, like, these daring stunts, but other competitions focused on more technical aspects of aviation, like long-distance flights that emphasize the potential of flying, like, what could be the future.
It was during this time, as a pilot for the Postal Service, that Lindbergh became interested in these flying competitions and eventually became convinced he could fucking win one. Let's fucking go. Get me in there. In the mid-1920s, a winning pilot would not just walk away with a large sum of money, he would also earn insane respect and admiration and fame all over the world.
In 1927, Charles was determined to enter this one particular competition. It was being promoted by Raymond Orteague, a French-American hotel magnate. Orteague was offering $25,000, and this is in 1927, to the first pilot to successfully complete a non-stop flight across the Atlantic from New York to Paris. Scary.
Now, that spring, Lindbergh found financial backing from several businessmen in St. Louis, St. Louis, and on May 27th, 1927, he took off from the Roosevelt Field on Long Island, New York. Long Island.
In the decades since Lindbergh's successful flight, this story has been told and retold so many times. According to Stanley Shapiro, no opposing version can prevail against it. So, it's just, this was a badass. It's what it is.
Yeah, the facts are pretty difficult to dispute, he did it, and the whole thing is so romantic and dangerous and has a mystique to it, that it also gives you a little insight into how he just rocketed the fame out of this. Now, at the time, Charles was 25 years old, so as Shapiro points out, he looked much younger than that as well, like he had a very useful appearance, and he was frequently referred to in the press. a boy not a man which i'm like he's 25 let's not refer to him like let's not infantilize him um and linberg was young obviously but 25 is still a grown man and he was conventionally handsome and he was also said to have lived a very chaste life he avoided drinking he had smoke and he wasn't like a womanizer basically in like pretty simple terms he was like an ideal role model for young americans at the time and the fact that he would take on such like a magical incredible remarkable dangerous journey like that yeah everyone saw it as this perfect metaphor for like the indomitable american spirit right you know like that was the time when it was like you're really looking for those heroes and linberg's receipt of the prize made him an instant celebrity and when he landed in paris at the end of the whole thing a crowd of more than 150 000 people lifted him out of the cockpit wow he basically just like crowd surfed over like the spirit of st louis st louis um was the name of his plane and it reportedly carried they carried him on their shoulders for almost 30 minutes here's a picture let's see um according to shapiro it was the romance of linberg's quote boy hero and shapiro points out that a lot of like the linberg romance kind of thing resides in his underdog status yeah he certainly did not have the credentials of his competitors or their elaborate expensive organizations that outsider status pretty much uh inspired much of the newspaper coverage because again like he was just this random guy you know like he's just entering it like he said and he had to get backing from like a bunch of other people to do this right so to a certain extent charles linberg had always believed all the overwhelming praise and adulation that had been heaped on him by his mother which is like a good thing in a way like you want to well yeah that's the whole reason to raise a competent self-assured kid you know absolutely um and of course you have a little bit of an over-inflated self-esteem you know it happens but honestly like stupid confidence sometimes will get you really far i think so like you know like sometimes i have stupid confidence and look at you sometimes i have incredible imposter syndrome i am never neutral well i think totally imposter syndrome or stupid confidence i think a lot of successful people have that there's very same makeup like there's not a middle ground yeah like i'm never just coasting it makes sense like especially that he didn't have a middle ground because like we were just saying like his mom really boosted him and his dad not like didn't not boost him or give me to show it be private yeah but we're telling him the opposite thing yeah it makes so much sense yeah but his successful flight across the atlantic and then you found fame that came with it it really only strengthened his belief that he was special and he was destined for great things which if i fly across the atlantic i'd be insufferable dive into rt player and escape your daily grind dive into family secrets and fallouts with a new season of the drive essential criteria being drink problem dysfunctional family of narcissistic mother or dive into the action with new cases on blue lights going off the cops that's a big move or dive into new offenses and new episodes of the young offenders dive in to stream brand new series now on rt player now in the wake of his flight charles signed endorsement deals like that was like a thing with uh mobile oil vacuum oil i love advertising just always being a thing yes always throughout always an endorsement and a lot of other companies and sold the exclusive rights to his story to the new york times for over one million dollars wow yeah which now would be like insane money i mean million dollars is insane money anyways but it would be astronomical now in december 1927 he accompanied his financial advisor dwight morrow on a trip which is such a financial advisor name i know yeah um he went with him on a trip to mexico that would change his life in a lot of ways at the time dwight morrow was an executive with jp morgan oh i've heard of him yeah i've heard of him don't touch the morgan letters that's the new york housewives that's a great one you should watch it watch that absolutely so good um but he so he was um an executive with jp morgan and the u.s ambassador to mexico and when they landed in mexico linberg and morrow were greeted by a crowd of over 150 000 enthusiastic he's like the original beatles yeah all hoping to get a look at this american hero and among them was morrow's daughter anne who arrived a few days earlier now anne took an immediate liking to charles of course yeah but he did her as well now at the time anne was attending smith college and wanted to be a writer hell yeah and she was like i'm not focused on marriage i'm looking to get my career going oh honey we love her and the same could be said for charles who after winning that prize the ort prize he received more than 100 000 marriage proposals that's 100 000 marriage proposals women i love you we have to get to know a man i was gonna say we don't know marriage we don't know he could be so many different things exactly some of them could be fantastic and some of them not so much and that's why we date yeah we can't just propose marriage to charles lindberg after he wins the prize yeah but uh he later wrote in his autobiography i'd always taken for granted that someday i would marry and have a family of my own but i had not thought much of it yeah he said in fact i had never been enough interested in any girl to even ask her to go on a date wow i think he was just so focused on his own shit he just wasn't he was like anne yeah anne was focused on her shit and she was like i got time i'm not worried about that he was the same way he was like i'm not worried about that let's go now despite what seems like their respective disinterested moments at this point they hit it off immediately like well that's the thing i think your universe sometimes the universe leads you to your person yeah i think that's when you're ready to welcome together and soon they were dating exclusively and anne later wrote in her diary the man i was to mary believed in me and what i could do and consequently i found i could do more than i realized on may 27th 1929 they married in a small simple ceremony it was at her family's estate in new jersey a little over a year later the couple's first child charles jr was born on anne's 24th birthday stop it june 22nd 1930 so to everyone on the outside looking in they appeared to be living the american dream so the Lindberghs were already one of the nation's most famous couples by the time charles jr was born makes sense and his birth was just one more reason for them to you know america's favorite couple at this point to appear on newspapers all like covers around the globe everywhere they went reporters weren't far behind snapping photos reporting on their activities no matter how mundane they were it was very much the paparazzi of like york he's not adhering to that rule his dad taught him no so when charles and anne began construction on their new home in hopewell new jersey not far from anne's parents in inglewood the press couldn't get enough of it let people live private lives like truly let people live homes be private and when they have a kid yeah kids leave them alone now built on 339 acres i'm sorry what 339 acres i can't even conceive of that just a forest i thought two was a lot yeah damn acreage acreage is a lot do you know how much acreage costs yeah acreage is serious acres and it was a remote remote land in a forested area of hopewell so it's very remote very away from which like love but hate it's a double-edged sword um the linberg house was to be kind of a compound where anne and charles could grow their family and live out the rest of their days together and among other things there's plenty of room for a literal runway plane runway they had over 300 acres there was plenty of room for it and he intended to build one he's gonna have a runway it just breaks my heart because like you wish that they got to live out like your actual parenting dream like obviously because you just never like now you just don't know what would that what would that kid's life have been yeah and then your life as a family have been and you're left just asking those exact questions forever it's just a bummer like a real bummer it's a tragedy um and also this place had limited like access to like like cars coming in which was great for privacy yeah but construction on the house began in summer of 1930 and was pretty complete when charles and anne decided to begin staying at the house overnight in february of 1932 at first they would only spend their weekends at the house in inglewood but were otherwise living with anne's parents at their house nearby and march 1st which was a tuesday was the first weekday the family spent the night at the new house okay this kidnapping happens on the first weekday that they spent at this house they had not spent a weekday there before that's interesting now a few days earlier charles jr the baby had been sick with a light cold and by the morning of march 1st it looked like anne had gotten the cold because of course she always assuming she would need some help with the baby and called their nurse maid betty gow and asked her to come to the inglewood estate that morning so betty spent the day helping anne around the house and around 7 30 p.m she started getting charles jr ready for bed that night betty dressed charles jr in a flannel shirt that she made for the afternoon diapers rubber pants and a one-piece dr denton sleep suit so cute and also like pants question mark they were a thing i guess really back then yeah like rubber sheets but like rubber pants pants for like no leakage would probably be so fucking uncomfortable absolutely i'm sure it was awful yeah i'm not thinking she had no idea i'm just like holy fuck but anne also placed thumb guards on each thumb to prevent charles from sucking his thumb that was a thing really and she wrapped strings around the guards and secured them to the sleeves of the outfit so they wouldn't fall off oh yeah that was like it's very interesting how they would put babies to sleep yeah well honestly it's changed so much and so frequently from then to now like with sids and everything like so different because then once he was placed in the crib he was covered with a blanket that betty then pins to the mattress with two large safety pins oh that's interesting like keeps them in place yeah they can't roll around and they can't smother themselves exactly now she did the damn thing now although it's still pretty cold outside and crack the window just a little bit just before leaving the room to let some fresh air circulate because she had a cold she was burping the room yeah she was burping that's that's just told me about burping the room that's weird you're literally just talking about it this morning and what is it it's a oh it's a german word luften luften and it's uh it means like airing out the house yeah you just like open up the windows let the house burp yeah you literally let the house burp i like that so that's what she was doing letting the room burp yeah now charles arrived like like big charles arrived home that evening he came over at 8 30 at 8 30 p.m and after he had attended a meeting at pan american airways the offices in new york earlier he's doing big things um he'd been scheduled to appear as the guest of honor at a dinner held at by new york university that evening but because of an issue with scheduling he decided he was too overbooked and he was like so he skipped the dinner and he's like i just want to go home that's nice that he just wanted to be with him he's like he's sick he's like you know after coming home he had dinner with anne while the handful of staff in the house including petty the nursemaid retired to their homes for the evening okay now anne and charles finished dinner a little after 9 p.m and they were sitting in the living room together when charles heard a noise he later described as the top slats of an orange box falling off a chair which i assume to be in the kitchen okay so i'm assuming he's just thinking like a box of oranges like a oh oh like a wooden box like a crate i'm picturing the top slat falling off i'm real dumb at this moment i was picturing an orange colored box but he asked anne whether she heard the sound and she's like no i didn't hear anything okay um and this is where i'm just a complete crazy person because i if i hear a slight no i'm not saying he did anything wrong let me be clear about this i'm just saying i am sick uh if i'm just saying i have a fucking problem the amount of times that my kids when they go to sleep they always have books in their bed and one of my kids loves to draw before bed or like color yeah and so she'll have like you know markers or like a pad of paper in your bed or like coloring without fail they will slide off the bed at some point and slam on the ground and it makes the same sound every time you know that's what it is and john always knows he's like that it's just their book falling off i have to run upstairs and check something in my brain is like don't let that be the one time something happened no it's true and even though it's like it's a sickness but whatever um i think that's actually ocd is it i think that's a form of ocd interesting because i literally am like if i don't go up there and check it's going to be the one time that something happened that i didn't check that's literally the definition of ocd interesting you should have that checked out i'm learning a lot of things about myself yeah um but yeah that's one of those things there's a there's a form of ocd that's related to becoming a parent um oh yeah that makes sense um but yeah i wonder if you have that i mean sometimes moms are just like exactly you're just insane yeah in a good way and as you should be yeah like it's like full-on like you feel crazy yeah no oftentimes when they stay at my house i can't sleep yeah it literally is one of those things yeah like i'm let me just say oftentimes the way i introduce that yeah wow i like i feel better than everybody i like it a lot oftentimes you know what oftentimes i might say scarves you know what it's okay but anyway we let you live you know cheers cheers to living cheers to scarves cheers to scarves um into st louis st louising cheers cheers are we all right we're not we're drinking our little we're having our olipop sody pop oh i can do it uh so yeah so you know here's the sound that was just letting you guys know that i'm like a cuckoo nut man i got it i run upstairs and it's always their book on the floor um but so and i was like yeah i didn't hear anything so again that's also him being like oh maybe i just heard something i didn't know and they've got an entire staff in the house so like noises are probably pretty common in the house at night now about an hour later as charles and were getting ready to bed for bed bed he decided to check on the baby one final time before going to bed herself so she lived in the house yeah she lived in the house um so yeah she was like you know what i'm going to bed like it was like live-in staff when you said and but she's like i'm gonna check on the baby one more time uh she checked on him about 45 minutes after putting him in the crib but she's like he's sleeping soundly but he's been sick lately so like i just want to do another check um so the lights were off the room was pretty dark when she went in there like she left it and as soon as she walked through the door she was like wow it's a lot colder in here than i thought it would be and she's like so she's like maybe i don't know like i don't think i'd opened it very wide and she looks and the window is open wider than she remembered leaving it which my heart is beating out of my chest right now the pit in my stomach that i feel in that one sentence of like it was open wider than she left it yeah is deep i also can't imagine how i don't i don't know how this all shakes out so let me just say i can't imagine how this poor woman yes in this moment she did nothing wrong she did nothing wrong but that's not your child so you're immediately like the guilt would be like you must feel that fault yeah unbelievable so she goes to close the window and she's like that's and i think and actually i shouldn't have said she realized that it was much um wider than she left it she actually didn't realize it she just went to close the window oh at the time it didn't register to her but it was wider she's like but i just didn't click at first because i think your brain doesn't want to believe it but feeling the cold she immediately was like something's weird it shouldn't be this cold in here um so after closing the window she turns around to the crib and she was going to turn on a heater in the room but her eyes are like adjusting to the dark at this point and so she said i couldn't really see into the crib very well because again my eyes are adjusting she's like but so it didn't really strike her as odd i bet she couldn't see him right away but she said what struck her she couldn't hear him breathing okay like a little baby so she's like so i reached my hand into the crib and she said she could feel the covers that she had placed over him but there was no baby oh fuck so she this is my worst looking it's awful so she's trying not to panic because she's like okay so she's like i'm gonna go down to exactly i'm gonna go down to ann and charles maybe ann took the baby into her room yeah so she calls out to ann and she's like hey do you have the baby and ann anxiously replied no i don't so now concerned betty went downstairs to see if charles senior had the baby well and double check the nursery but within moments it was clear no one was out there as ann and betty tore through the house looking for the baby charles ran upstairs into the nursery to double check himself everything appeared perfectly normal in the baby's room except for the fact that there was no baby in there in the crib he said the blanket was still secured to the mattress with safety pins like someone and he said the impression of the baby's head was still in the pillow oh and he said it was as though someone had carefully lifted him out of the crib trying not to disturb anything so he realizes now my son's been taken yep and so he went to the adjoining room and he grabbed his rifle from the closet oh yeah with ann and betty falling close behind him and when they returned to the nursery again he noticed the small white envelope resting on the windowsill oh motherfucker i hate this there was nothing written on the outside of the envelope but inside there was a note and it said dear sir have fifty thousand dollars ready twenty five hundred dollars and twenty dollar bills fifteen hundred and ten dollar bills and ten thousand dollars and five dollar bills after two to four days we will inform you where to where to deliver the money it's all spelled wrong by the way We warn you for making anything public or for the police. The child is in good care.
Indication for all letters are signature and three holes. What? No, yeah. Now, by that time, the entire household was awake.
All the staff was awake and alert to what was going on. Charles took one final look around the nursery, but nothing was out of the ordinary other than that letter. So he instructed everyone to remain as calm as possible, and he insisted no one touch anything in this nursery. Then he went to the phone and called his lawyer, Colonel Henry Breckenridge, and then he called the New Jersey State Police.
So when Lieutenants Dunn and Bornman received the call from Lindbergh, the two officers' first instinct was that this is a prank. This is not Charles Lindbergh. Like, this is someone calling to do this. That's a bad first instinct.
When they hung up, they called the number back, and it was the Lindbergh house that answered. So they were like, fuck. After providing the officers with all the information, Charles hung up the phone and went outside, rifle in hand, to search for his son. Now, in the yard, just underneath the nursery window, Lindbergh and one of the staff, Ollie Wheatley, found what would be the most important piece of evidence in the case.
It was a handmade wooden ladder that was clearly used by the kidnapper to reach the voice window. So creepy. A few feet away, there was a broken piece of wood that appeared to have come off the ladder, probably when the kidnapper was climbing down from the window. Finding nothing else of note in the area outside the house, they went back and signed away for the police.
Now, on 10.30 p.m., Hopewell police officers Harry Wolfe and Charles Williamson arrived at the Lindbergh home and briefly questioned Charles and the staff, and then they did a preliminary search of the house. From the moment the officers arrived, Charles' dominating personality was pretty evident, which, of course, he's in a state of panic. Yeah, that's his only child. Yeah, by that point, he was one of the biggest celebrities in the world, and he'd become accustomed to taking control of every situation he was in, particularly those involving his family and his privacy.
That was also, like, his role back then. Trained. So rather than allow the officers to go about their business as they saw fit, he followed them around the house, and as he had, with his staff, demanded that the officers not touch anything in the nursery until experts came. Which I can't say I wouldn't do that.
And I'm not saying it's a good thing to do. I'm just saying he's a parent. Like, you can never say I would just sit there quietly. Like, obviously, it's better to let the experts do what they do best.
Of course. I'm not saying you should involve yourself. I'm just saying, like, I can't get too mad at a parent for just wanting to be like, what's going on? And I think I would do the same thing.
I just, I don't know what I would do, and I can't say I wouldn't do that. But again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. No, it's just a parent. Honestly, I get it.
Now, after nearly 100 years, it's unclear what Wolfe and Williamson did and didn't notice. I still don't know. But it's almost certain they took note of the ladder in the yard and the small number of footprints leading away from the house. But whoever had taken the baby appeared to have placed cloth over their shoes or had gone barefoot and placed bags over their feet, which would make it impossible to measure their feet.
Wow. Which is, like, pretty. Just the fact that somebody thought of that. Yeah.
That's, like, mess or my shit. Those are essentially the two things that we found out. That they found out, we just don't know what other evidence they, if anything, they came up with. They did, though, suggest that whoever the kidnapper was, there was a strong possibility that this was not their first criminal act.
Okay. Now, other than the ladder and footprints leading away from the house in a southward direction, again, there was a little evidence that we know of to speak in the house. Neither the ladder nor the ransom note had any fingerprints either on it. Aside from the noise Charles heard from what he thought was the kitchen while they were eating dinner, no one in the house heard any other sounds.
As far as the investigators could tell, the kidnapper had probably parked their vehicle a ways away from the house and walked through the woods to get to the house. Which means they obviously traced that route at least one other time. Yep. And then they climbed into the nursery through the window that Betty had left open through no fault of her own, then gently lifted the sleeping baby from the crib and went out of the way they came in, which, like, the fact that the baby didn't cry or make any sound, they were very gentle with what they did.
Obviously. It's also just so horrifying to think that somebody or a group of people were 100% casing that house. That is the part of home invasions that scares me the most. It's also scary.
Yeah. But for some reason, like, the thought of a person casing you while you are just going about your daily life and they are learning your daily life while you have no fucking idea. That's why switch up your routine. Switch up your routine.
That's why I leave my house at a different time. Like, switch up your routines however you can. Switch it up. It just is.
But it's just not that also, they did. That's the part that really gets you here. They weren't supposed to be there, really. Yeah, which we will go into, for sure.
This is going to be a multi-parter because it's very involved. And also, the noise that Charles heard was the ladder, probably. That was the rung of the ladder breaking. Yeah, that makes sense.
So he's sitting there, having dinner with his wife, hears a noise, and it was somebody stealing his baby. Yeah. Like, that is unthinkable. No, it truly is.
And to go back and realize, like, oh, what I thought was just innocuous was a life-changing. It was the most, like, fucking malignant thing I can think of. So the limited evidence found at the scene supported the theory of how the kidnapping unfolded. But there was one very important question that wasn't really answered yet.
Until that night, like we were just talking about, Charles and Anne only stayed at the house on weekends. So how was it that the kidnapper knew they would be there that evening when they hadn't been there on a weeknight any other time before that? In the month or two leading up to this whole thing, the only people living at the house full-time were a number, like a small number of staff. And if the kidnapper had cased the house, like we were just saying, or been watching for a number of days or weeks, they would have seen activity and might have interpreted that as an indication that the family had moved in.
But it's also possible they simply got lucky that night and had been completely unaware that this is the first weeknight that Charles and Anne were staying there. Or I just wonder, too, like, were they being followed and were people listening to their conversations and knew they were planning on moving in? Well, there's a third possibility that's pretty troubling, is that the kidnappers had someone on the inside informing them of the couple's comings and goings. Because it is just like, sure, you could have gotten lucky, but that's lucky.
Well, and it's like, if you are casing that house and you know that they're not there, like, why would you come on a two-site? It just doesn't make a lot of sense. That's the thing. Well, the other, that whole thing of, like, if they got lucky is one that says they weren't casing the house.
They just showed up on a random night to kidnap this kid and happened to hit the night. And I just don't feel like that could happen. Sure. Like, it could.
It's a pretty remote possibility. And one is just, like, the fact that they thought this person had done things in the past. Exactly. And it's this question, the, how did this happen?
How did they know they would be there? That hasn't been answered yet. Yeah. Still.
And this is an option that has happened. So when the news of the kidnapping hit the papers the next day, the public was just shocked to learn of Charles Jr.'s disappearance. Because, I mean, also, like, was kidnapping really a thing back then? It was definitely not a new phenomenon in the United States at this point, but look at me leading you into it next time.
It really did. But this was the first time, like, the real first time that they saw, like, the child of a celebrity be, like, a high profile. Yeah, somebody that, like, everyone knew. Right.
All over the country. That's exactly what you meant. All over the country. The entire front pages were occupied with coverage of kidnapping and just, like, various stories about the investigation.
New Jersey Director of Public Safety, William Egan, called out the entire state police in the area and officers conducted a house-to-house search, but they didn't find anything that way. Several miles away from the house, investigators found an abandoned sedan that they thought maybe was related to the kidnapping, but like the crime scene itself, it didn't have anything in the car to really identify a suspect, even if it was connected. It's still spooky. That's the thing.
Like, it could be connected, but they just didn't leave anything behind. Yeah. But they did discover something about the car. It had been stolen on the afternoon of the kidnapping from an address in Brooklyn.
Okay, so that's sus. Yeah. Which did lead investigators to conclude the car, quote, may have been used by the kidnappers in their flight from Lindbergh home. No, that's smart wording.
They said, maybe, maybe not. They said, let's hedge our bets. Maybe 50. Maybe not.
There's two possibilities here. It was either used by the kidnappers or it wasn't. Or it wasn't. Period.
And that's where we are in our investigation. Okay, so. Everybody said, oh, good, great. Yeah, awesome.
That's helpful. Aside from the various details of the crime, what is pretty evident about the heavy coverage of it is the extent to which Charles Lindbergh attempted to use his power and influence to control the investigation from the start. According to historian Lloyd Gardner, Lindbergh had a very deep distrust of the authorities and doubted their ability to actually solve this case to his satisfaction. Like, for example, like the morning after the kidnapping, New Jersey Governor Harry Moore coordinated with the state legislature to offer a $25,000 reward for Charles Jr.'s safe return.
When Lindbergh learned of the reward, he immediately shut it down, saying, quote, such action should be deferred for the time being while initial efforts to capture the abductors were being made. So he didn't want that award going on because he was like, we should capture the people first. And it's like, no, no, we know that. It's true, capture film.
And also, I think the most important thing here is to find your baby. Yeah. That's number one. It feels like counterintuitive.
Well, that's what that reward does. The reward is to find your baby. Right. Find information about where your baby is.
It's, yeah, we want to find who did this, but that truly would have been secondary to me. I guess, like, on one hand, maybe he was just like, what if that leads to false tips or something? Which, of course it is. But also, like, you wouldn't get the reward unless it was a real tip.
That's the thing. It's part of the course on that stuff. Yeah. But why wouldn't you want to just open it up to see if anybody has a tip?
Yeah, I don't really understand that. Well, as promised in the initial ransom note, more communications from the kidnappers did arrive in the days after that followed. That's so eerie. On March 6th, a second note arrived in the mail, postmarked two days earlier from Brooklyn.
In it, the kidnappers increased their demand to $70,000. The note said, Dear sir, we have warned you not to make anything public. Also notify the police. Now you have to take consequences.
Means we will have to hold the baby until everything is quiet. We cannot make any appointment just now. We know very well what it means to us. It is, is it really necessary to make a world affair out of this?
Or to get your baby back as soon as possible to settle those affairs in a quick way? We'll be better for both. Don't be afraid about the baby. Keeping care of us day and night.
We also will feed him according to the diet. We are interested to send him back in gut health. Isn't that good? Hello?
And ransom was made for $50,000, but now we have to take another person to it and probably have to keep the baby for a longer time than we expected. So the amount will be $70,000, $20,000 in $50 bills, $25,000 in $20 bills, and $15,000 in $10,000 in $5 bills. Don't mark any bills or take them from one serial number. We will form you latter where to deliver the money, but we will not do so until the police is out of the case and the pappers are quiet.
The kidnapping is prepared. We prepared in years, so we are prepared for everything. I'm sorry, but this is like an OG drunk text. Yeah, it literally is.
Yeah. Hold on. Is it like 3am? There's a reason that it comes off like what is happening.
Oh, okay. Like it was purposeful. Perhaps. Now, two days later, a third note was received at the office of Lindbergh's lawyer, and it was lamenting the fact that they had not received a response, and they were reminding the family not to involve the police in their negotiations.
It said, Dear Sir, did you receive our letter from March 4th? We sent the mail on one off the letter, near Borough Hall, Brooklyn. We know police interfere with your private mail. How can we come to any arrangements this way?
In the future, we will send our letters to Mr. Breckenridge at 25 Broadway. Otherwise, the note was nearly a word for word. Duplicate of the letter received the day before.
The drunk text. Yeah, the drunk text. Now, in total, Lindbergh received a dozen ransom notes, all appearing to be written by the same person, but only those sent directly to Lindbergh contained the unusual signature and three holes had some, like, limited formal education, especially at the time. Oh, okay.
But it wasn't poor grammar and spelling alone that stood out. The notes also had an unusual syntax to them. Like, the writer was not a native English speaker. Oh, okay.
Yeah, so that might be why, like, it seems like it's not making sense how an English speaker would say it. Okay. Because it would make sense for someone that it's not a native speaker. It's, like, translating.
Yeah, I see. If it's being, like, directly translated. Right. Now, on the day the third ransom note was received by Lindbergh's lawyer, a strange, quote, open letter appeared in the Bronx Home News, in which the writer, a retired Bronx school principal, Dr.
John Condon, offered the kidnappers $1,000 if the kidnappers turned the baby over to a Catholic priest. But they want $70,000. Yeah, so Condon said, I offer all I can scrape together so a loving mother may again have her child, and Colonel Lindbergh may know that the American people are grateful for the honor bestowed upon them by his pluck and daring. Okay.
I'm going to love that. But he's just like, I want to help. That's nice. We love a good Samar.
Yeah, so the next day, Condon received a letter at his address in New York believed to be by the kidnapper. It said, dear sir, if you are willing to act as go-between in the Lindbergh case, please follow strictly instruction. Handel, uh, handel, enclosed letter personally to Mr. Lindbergh.
It will explain everything. Don't tell anyone about it. As soon as we find out the press or police is notified, everything are canceled, and it will be a further delay. Okay.
So the letter instructed Condon to coordinate with Lindbergh to get the money together. And once he had done that, he was supposed to post a notice in the classified section of the New York American, only saying, money is ready. Okay. Now, according to author Richard Cahill, like, boom.
Just boom. According to author Richard Cahill, the single most fascinating person involved in the Lindbergh kidnapping was Dr. John F. Condon.
Really? In fact, like, Condon appeared to come out of nowhere at a pretty crucial moment in the investigation. And while the timing is almost suspiciously convenient, his desire to be, like, of some assistance to the family was, by all accounts, genuine. He's just a good guy.
He was a very patriotic man, especially at a time when, like, being patriotic was, like, you know, it was just, like, a different thing. You know what I mean? I feel like it carried so much weight back then. And he had a very, like, sincere love for, like, teaching children, helping children.
His teaching extended beyond his retirement and motivated him to become an active leader in his community. Like, he was just a good guy. Yeah, that sounds like it. And like many Americans, Condon had been inspired by Charles Lindbergh's achievements in aviation.
He was devastated to learn of the kidnapping of his baby. It was that, like, patriotism, and patriotism, excuse me, and his commitment for the well-being of children that he really spent his life up with. That led him to write the letter in the first place. It's unclear what, if honestly anything, he expected in return for his services.
He never said he wanted it to hack. But it's really, it's pretty unlikely that he expected to find himself at the center of the literal crime of the century, is what it is called. So while Condon's open letter appeared in the Bronx Home News on March 8th, it caught the attention of the New Jersey State Police, but was ultimately dismissed as insignificant. Because after all, Charles Lindbergh received countless letters year-round from adoring fans.
And those letters only increased when the news of the kidnapping broke. But when Condon received a reply from the kidnappers, they were kind of forced to take the offer more seriously. So the letter sent to Condon was the second ransom note to be received by someone other than Charles Lindbergh, the first being the letter sent to Henry Breckenridge. Like the letter received by Breckenridge, Condon's letter didn't include the three-hole design used by the kidnapper to indicate their authenticity.
But nevertheless, the letter was determined to be authentic by the authorities. And on the evening of March 9th, Condon found himself on the telephone with Charles Lindbergh, which lasted a while. Now, to everyone's surprise, Lindbergh agreed to allow Condon to act as a go-between. On March 10th, Charles provided Condon with the $70,000 demanded by the kidnapper, and Condon started the negotiation with the kidnappers through newspaper classifieds.
He identified himself with the code name Jaffsy. Two days later, another letter arrived at Condon's home, delivered by local cab driver Joseph Perron. According to Joseph, the letter had been given to him by an anonymous man who paid him to deliver it. But he could remember very little about the man.
The note directed Condon to a vacant lot, where he found yet another note, which instructed him to place the money in a box and plan to bring it with him to Woodlawn Cemetery. Oh, not a cemetery. Yeah. Once there, he was to follow the fence in the direction of 233rd Street, where he would be met by a man referred to only as John.
Isn't this spooky as hell? Yeah. And this is just like a random dude who's just trying to help. This guy's just like, what the fuck?
But you didn't think you were going to do all this? No, he was like, I'm just trying to help, man. So the letters from the kidnapper didn't specify when the meeting would take place. And in the days that followed, Condon continued communicating through the newspapers, trying not only to pin down a date and time he was supposed to do this, but also to secure some proof from the letter writers that they were in fact the kidnappers, not just like setting him up.
To that end, on March 16th, a seventh ransom note arrived at Condon's address. And that included the Dr. Denton sleeping suit that Betty Gow had put Charles Jr. in before putting him in.
to bed that night oh that's awful that sends me into orbit yeah the idea of the little sleeping suit no because i just remember playing my babies into those little sleep packs oh i just getting that would probably smells like baby oh the suit was passed along to lindberg who confirmed that it was his son's suit oh that's fucking bleak so it's important to point out that all the negotiations between john condon and kidnappers and john condon and the lindbergs were happening outside the official investigation okay this was like a whole side quest which you can understand because they're being told don't involve the authorities i get it lindberg's desperate need to be in control of the situation and his distrust of the police and them saying don't involve the police it kind of led him to undertake his own investigation yeah um it was coordinated by and executed by his lawyers and a lot of like private investigators right so there's professionals involved now according to historian lloyd gardner the fact that lindberg kept the ransom notes and the plan to meet with the kidnappers from police would become one of the primary reasons that suspicions would later fall on lindberg himself interesting because like once they found that out they were like what the fuck's going on why didn't you involve us yeah i mean i get you see both sides of that pretty easily you absolutely can though yeah because you can see why authorities will look at that and go excuse me what you didn't want to find your kid by involving us like what the fuck right but then you get like when that's how i can't imagine don't involve the police yeah now finally after weeks of waiting condon received a note from the kidnappers on april 1st instructing him to have the money ready for the exchange the next evening imagine him right now and like obviously charles do like weeks with your baby your little baby like a brand new giant house just like waiting for your baby's return with that nursery just sitting there empty i can't like i can't so the next afternoon the 11th ransom note was delivered to common's home by an anonymous cab driver who said he'd been given the by the note by a man that he didn't know and paid to deliver it just like the first the note provided directions to a greenhouse on east tremont street in the bronx where condon found the 12th and final note the 12th and final note said cross the street and walk to the next corner and follow whitmore avenue to the sound take the money with you come alone and walk i will meet you so condon did as he was instructed in that evening he found himself in the cemetery waiting to meet that man known as john after a few minutes of waiting he was flagged down by a man waving a handkerchief whom he assumed to be his contact yeah later he described the man as being of average height and weight with large ears and a pointy chin the only distinctive feature that he noticed was that the man had a large lump at the base of his left thumb that appeared to be some kind of like physical imperfection okay so in exchange for the money condon was given the last written communication anyone would receive from the kidnappers instructing him where to go to find charles lindberg jr they said the boy is on the boat nelly it is a small boat 28 feet long two persons are on the boat they are innocent you will find the boat between horsenack beach and gay head near elizabeth island talking about massachusetts i was just going to say wait a second horsenack is opinion uh so condon raced home and immediately gave the information at lindberg after a month of just anxiety and heartbreak it seemed like the ordeal was finally going to come to an end oh so imagine missing like obviously you know what happens here yeah i think they're getting a baby yeah it's like and you're like oh my god i missed out on a month of my first child yeah and what kind of trauma are they gonna have yeah from this now lindberg made arrangements with the u.s navy to borrow a seaplane and he and yeah he and breckenridge flew to martha's vineyard imagine just dialing up the navy yeah can i borrow plane i gotta go to martha's vineyard so they went to massachusetts to retrieve the sun once they reached the area around martha's vineyard the man uh they scanned the water below looking for the boat supposedly named nelly but found nothing after a brief break to refuel they went up again and continued the search until the sun went down but they never found any boat that evening when it was clear that there was no boat to be found lindberg and breckenridge returned to long island from there and they took a car to the lindberg estate in hopewell so the failure to find their baby in martha's vineyard caused john condon tremendous guilt and anxiety oh sure he had idolized charles lindberg and genuinely believed that by just helping and acting as a go-between he could rescue his little boy and be a hero right but now it looked like his efforts had just been for nothing not only having not rescued charles jr but he also lost them the ransom money oh fuck that's how he felt right in the days that followed condon placed another ad in the bronx home news that read in all caps what is wrong have you crossed me please better directions japsy unfortunately his plea received no reply from the kidnapper now weeks passed with no word and no progress uh in the official and on official investigations um then on may 12th the mystery of charles lindberg jr's whereabouts was pretty tragically solved not by police but by a stranger completely unconnected to the case that afternoon new jersey truck driver william allen was driving a load of lumber to a location in hopewell and about four and a half miles from the lindberg house in where he went into the woods just ducked in to relieve himself before going back into his car he hadn't made it more than 50 or 60 feet into the woods when he made a terrible discovery a few feet in front of him covered in dirt and debris was the child's skull oh god not certain what he was looking at at first he ducked his head down for a closer look and he said he saw a small foot oh so he raced to the nearest police station and reported what he had found then accompanied several officers and hunterton county coroner william swasey back to the grave site the body of the little boy was laying on its side and was badly decomposed and had been picked at by animals and scavengers so the whole time that condom was communicating with the clothes on the numbers this baby was and they're talking about how he's healthy and they're feeding him his diet and everything's fine i know like i know that the authorities at the time or like the unofficial authorities believed that they were actual communications do people widely believe that they were we'll get into that okay for sure okay um but yeah they they it was this this poor little body was badly decomposed there was no denying it was the body of a baby uh because of the position that the remains had been left which was the face was pointed towards the ground um the only good thing was that investigators were able to photograph the child's face which was mostly intact because it was faced towards the ground after comparing the photographs to those of charles lindberg jr provided by the family inspectors from the state police identified the body of that as that of uh charles lindberg jr but before making the identification official detectives took the small scraps of clothing found with the body to the lindberg house where lindberg and betty gow both confirmed that they were matched for the clothing the baby was wearing the night he disappeared the disappearance of charles lindberg jr was now a murder investigation oh man and we are going to stop there for part two that was a lot we're gonna get into the hunt for the killer we're gonna get into theories we're gonna get into mysteries things that still make us say huh about this case all of it because it's not over i guess it doesn't end there i know i don't know all the theories i obviously i know this case but i don't know all the nitty-gritty that's the thing with this case there's a lot yeah there's a lot going on yeah so we will get into it in part two all right i'm interested but yeah definitely a place to stop that was sad yeah it really is yeah all right um do you have a fun fact for us there were active volcanoes on the moon when dinosaurs were alive fuck yeah hell yeah hell yeah brother that's metal is fun the only appropriate reaction to that yeah hell yeah dinosaurs which by the way another fun fact you should check out that show on netflix called dinosaurs okay sick so good let's go go watch that guys the kids love it all right well we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but that's the way that you don't give yourself a power cleanser by checking out the show dinosaurs on netflix that's not even madeline just likes it with your children dinosaurs bye oh that was from the show dinosaurs i know it's totally different but i still think that i still think that made sense so so Thank you.