The Path to Trauma-Informed Leadership (with Carolyn Swora)

My guest Carolyn Swora was in the middle of an ordinary work conversation with a kind colleague, being asked to do something completely unremarkable, when she suddenly burst into tears for no reason she could name. A friend called her afterward and asked if she was okay, then said something about being "trauma informed." Carolyn's response: "What is that? What's that word?" That question is where trauma-informed leadership starts, and it's the whole subject of this episode. Carolyn is a leadership consultant, team coach, certified Dare to Lead facilitator, and two-time bestselling author. Her award-winning book, Evolve: The Path to Trauma-Informed Leadership, grew out of that unexplainable crying moment and 25 years of corporate experience, including 17 years in Big Pharma leadership, six years spent caring for her two young sons and her terminally ill husband, and an official burnout in 2007. We talk about what "trauma" actually means (hint: it doesn't require a machete), how her nervous system quietly ran her entire career without her knowing it, and why she now believes the body and brain were never separate to begin with. You'll walk away with the actual symptoms of a nervous system on overload, the difference between big-T and little-t trauma, and why Carolyn now treats a sore back or a crawling scalp as her body talking to her instead of something to just push through. Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ikbwoPX1c In this episode Why an unexplained crying spell at work sent Carolyn down the research rabbit hole that became her book Big T vs. little t trauma: why you don't need a machete story to have been affected How 17 years in Big Pharma leadership left her with "a really small sense of self-worth," and what she didn't know was underneath it Her official burnout in 2007, and the exact moment she finally asked for permission to slow down How to recognize the nervous-system symptoms telling you something's off (before your body forces a stop) Why treating your brain and body as separate is, per Carolyn, the root of "disembodied" leadership Timestamps (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet leadership consultant and author Carolyn Swora (01:58) The unexplained crying moment with a colleague that started it all (05:59) Leaving a 17-year Big Pharma career with "a really small sense of self-worth" (07:57) Reframing trauma as "emotional wounds," and the Brené Brown notecard moment: "the inability to be vulnerable" (12:32) Discovering Stephen Porges's Polyvagal Theory, and running from her past for six years (16:04) Her official burnout in 2007, and asking permission to finally slow down (21:05) Vertical development leadership and why "the brain and body are one" (24:02) Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score, and reading your own nervous-system symptoms (25:43) The nervous-system symptoms that signal you're running on overload (27:28) Polyvagal states explained: sympathetic drive, dorsal shutdown, and ventral vagal safety (37:13) Where to find Carolyn Swora and her weekly Polyvagal newsletter About Carolyn Swora Carolyn Swora is a leadership consultant, team coach, and certified Dare to Lead facilitator (trained through Brené Brown's Dare to Lead community). She's a two-time bestselling author; her award-winning book, Evolve: The Path to Trauma-Informed Leadership, brings the nervous system into a conversation usually reserved for strategy and performance. Learn more, read the books, and sign up for her weekly newsletter at CarolynSwora.com. Favorite quotes "One of the biggest casualties of trauma is the inability to be vulnerable. And I swear it was one of those moments in my life where everything all came together, and I thought, damn, this is what happened to me and my leadership." —Carolyn Swora "The Phoenix has to rise out of this flame." —Carolyn Swora "We can only be as kind to others as we are to ourselves." —Carolyn Swora Resources mentioned CarolynSwora.com: Carolyn's website, books, podcast, and weekly Polyvagal newsletter Evolve: The Path to Trauma-Informed Leadership, Carolyn's award-winning book (discussed throughout the episode) Stephen Porges's Polyvagal Theory (referenced as the framework Carolyn discovered after finishing her book) Brené Brown's Dare to Lead research and facilitator training (the source of the "casualties of vulnerability" notecard moment) The work of trauma researchers Peter Levine, Gabor Maté, and Dan Siegel (named as early influences in Carolyn's research) The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk (referenced by Dana at 24:02) Related episodes How Unresolved Trauma Is Ruling Your Life: more on the big-T/little-t distinction Carolyn walks through, from a different angle. How Your Survival Brain Is Sabotaging Your Happiness: pairs with Carolyn's polyvagal-state breakdown of sympathetic drive and dorsal shutdown. How Ego Is Sabotaging Your Leadership: another look at what's really running the show when a leader can't be vulnerable. Subscribe & connect If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show. Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here. Curious where your own boundaries stand? Take my free Work Boundaries Quiz: danaskaggs.com/quiz