Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Catherine Miller. Divorce Dialogues brings expert guests to the airways to talk through your divorce questions and fill in the gray areas of that separating. From thinking about divorce, to how to behave during divorce, to what to do after, this is Divorce Dialogues.
Welcome to Dialogue on Divorce. I'm Catherine Miller. Excuse me. I'm the founder and the logarithm director of the Center for Understanding and Conflict, and I am on a mission to change how people divorce and help them divorce with dignity.
And my guest today is Susan Bernardo. She's the author of The Children's Book, Sun Kisses, Moon Hugs. Divorce and Shared Custody Arrangement inspired Susan to write the book as a way to reassure her children and herself that they are always connected by love even when they are physically separated. She certainly serves as an example that new possibilities exist for divorcing people, creating and independently publishing Sun Kisses, Moon Hugs with a friend of hers, Courtney Fletcher, who did the illustrations, launched them both on a wonderful career path, and led to collaborating with LeVar Burton on a book that helped kids cope with trauma.
And last year, they released a third picture about The Big Adventures of Tiny House, which explores what it means to be a home. Susan is a big believer in healing through creativity. Welcome to the show, Susan Bernardo. Thank you.
I'm really happy to be here with you today. So tell us about your shared custody arrangement. What do you mean by that? And what was it that you were yearning for that led you to think of writing this book, Sun Kisses, Moon Hugs?
Well, divorce is a very complex and complicated path, you know. In 2011, I went through a separation, which ultimately led to a divorce. And I'd been a stay-at-home mom for 15 years, and my children were – one was in middle school and one was just six years old. And it was really hard for me to suddenly be away from them when they were at their death.
And at the time, it was very amicable. We were seeing a therapist, but I still missed them terribly when they were at their death. And so I was grieving. And I had a good friend who was also going through grief.
She had lost a friend of hers with breast cancer, and that's Courtney Fletcher, my illustrating partner. And so we started exploring ways that we could reassure kids that love is forever, and you don't have to be physically together to feel the love from someone. And the result was that I wrote a poem called Sun Kisses, Moon Hugs, and Courtney started illustrating it, and before we knew it, we had a book. So that's how it began.
I think there's so much in what you just said, and I think that for all parents, but particularly for parents who have devoted themselves to parenting as a vocation as well as a commitment, that the heartbreak – one of the biggest heartbreaks of divorce is not being with your children all the time the way you were before. And I remember myself going to look at their beds that they were not in or trying to find a way to enjoy a holiday that they weren't a part of in a different way. That's really, really painful and really hard and not necessarily what we signed up for when we had children. Right.
Yeah, it's incredibly difficult. I mean, I just – I remember literally for a couple of years, every time they would go to their dads, I would sob. And I just eventually learned that I just had to let myself go through that grieving process and then find ways of, I guess I would say, channeling it or using that energy creatively in a way that made meaning out of things that just didn't make sense to me. You know, like I had thought that, you know, like the marriage was good, but of course we had problems.
And the separation gave me time to grieve, but also time to explore who I was again. Like I had to reestablish my identity and my sense of self. And so creativity was my path for that. I think that's a really, really important point that you're making, Susan, that reestablishing your identity, especially if you've been a stay-at-home mom and your kids are going to be spending substantial time with their other parent, that, you know, reminding yourself or reinventing yourself.
Remembering. Right. Remembering yourself. Exactly.
And putting yourself back together. Yeah. And I think for so many people – and I think this is particularly relevant for women – sacrifice themselves for their children or their marriage or their husband. And that when that is redefined, it really forces you, right, to find a way to remember yourself and catch up to where you now are in life.
And it sounds like you did that through creativity, and the result is this terrific book. Yes. And I think all of my books have that theme running through them that, you know, when you're shattered, when you fall apart in pieces, how do you pick up those pieces and build something new? How do you, you know, reassemble yourself and what new things will you bring in?
And it's kind of like anthropology. You first have to go on this mission to remember what you loved before, you know, you were a mom and wife. Who were you without those titles? And so it can be a scary process, but it's also really exciting.
I signed up for art classes, which I find that a lot of things that I did after I separated, I probably could have done while I was married, but there never seemed to be enough time or I didn't make the time. So suddenly I had time to myself that I needed to fill, so I wasn't just sitting around moping, you know. And so I was taking writing workshops and art classes, and I do, for sale, ecstatic dance. Just things that allowed me to move all of that sadness through me into a painting or a poem or spinning around on the dance floor just so that I could process all of my emotions that I was going through.
I think what's really great is that you let your children go to their dads, and you saw it after they left, and you found ways to not just distract yourself, but to actually process the feelings that you were having and make something with them. I mean, whether or not it's a poem or a drawing or a dance, and then you can look at that, and rather than putting the angst and the anger and the hurt and the grief on your children. How did you come to that place? Because so many people, I think, struggle with the same questions and the same problems.
I think I had two friends in the past who were divorced. I didn't really have a lot of experience with divorce, but I did have two friends that were divorced. And I saw one go through an incredibly toxic, angry, blaming process, and the kids got caught in the middle. And that just made me so sad to watch that happen, because I was close to her and the kids and the husband, and it was just like a scorched earth divorce.
And then I had another friend who really tried to make it work. She went through therapy, tried to stay with her husband, and then they ended up having a really amicable divorce and sharing custody. And she is someone like me who really channeled her feelings into creativity and trying to create a new life for herself. And so when my marriage came to an end, it was a really conscious decision of which direction I wanted to go.
And so then it was, if I want to do the best I can for my children, how do I need to be in that equation? I can't dump everything on them. I can't put them in the middle. I'm not going to tear down their father, whom they're spending half their time with.
Instead, I was trying to make their other home be a safe place for them, too. At the end of the day, it's all about the kids. We had a very good mediator at the beginning, too, who helped us craft a mission statement on the ultimate goals. And really, it was about the kids.
It was about just being civil to each other and kind and not dragging them into the middle of something. It sounds like you chose to make the decisions that you need to make to get through the divorce with a mediator, and that that mediator had you, at the beginning of the process, create a shared mission statement for the process of the divorce that you and your ex-husband worked on together, and that that that was very focused on your children, that you both agreed to that, and that that's, yeah, consciously and together, putting the children first and foremost and protecting them, doing what was best for them, was very important in your divorce process to help you come to a resolution that made sense for you and for him and most importantly for them. Exactly. And there were times when it got very heated.
You know, it's such an emotional process. You've invested so much of your life in this marriage and building a family, and it's hurtful, like, that it's ending. I mean, there's a lot of pain involved and anger because something has ended, and somebody's going to feel angry in it, probably both sides. And whenever things would get too heated, she would have us read out loud our mission statement again and bring it back down to, okay, we've got to be grown-ups here.
And so that was part of it, you know, trying to be a grown-up. But then I am a believer in feeling your feelings, too. So if I couldn't do it in that space, if I had to, like, always be in control, then I needed to have safe places on my own where my inner child could grieve and be angry and stomp and storm. And for me, that was creativity because, you know, I can paint in bright red and black, and I can smoke angry things, and nobody will be hurt by that.
It's just a way for me to move those emotions through me in a safe place. This is Dialogue on Divorce. We're here on WBOX 1460 AM every other Wednesday from 5 to 530, and we're also available on the podcast website, Divorcedialogues.com. I'm Catherine Miller, and I'm talking today with Susan Bernardo.
She's the author of the children's book, Sun Kisses, Moon Hugs, and we're talking about her recreating herself and her book and future books through the process of divorce and rediscovering herself and what it meant to be Susan following her divorce. And, you know, one thing that I think that you did that was really also remarkable, Susan Bernardo, is that you worked with your former husband. Even though you were a stay-at-home mom, you probably thought of your job as being a mom. You probably still do.
I mean, certainly in large part, a very hard job. It's like a primary job, yes. Right? And being a stay-at-home mom, I think, is a really, really difficult job and really challenging and not appreciated as much as it should be by our society.
And at the same time, it sounds like you share your children with your dad 50% of the time. And that means what that says to me is that you really value their relationship with him as much as their relationship with you, and you're willing to let them explore it. And the reason that I'm bringing this up is because, you know, I think a lot of times people in your position don't do that, and they'll focus on something like staying in the home or staying in the school system or the neighborhood. And I'm not saying those things aren't important, but if it means that the other parent has to be two hours away because that's what the family can afford or something like that, I think that that is, I don't know, maybe the wrong priority.
The relationship with the parents is the most stabilizing thing for the children and for managing the transition to maintain a relationship with both parents. What do you think about that? For me, that's been true. And our society has shifted over the years.
You know, at the very beginning when the kids were younger, it was closer to 80-20, and then it became 50-50. He was able to adjust his work schedule to better accommodate having the kids. And so it's been a really interesting journey to watch him have more time with the kids. I think, like you said, that stay-at-home moms aren't always appreciated to the full extent.
And then suddenly he was having to, half the time, do the shopping and the meals and the pickups and making sure they got their homework done. And I think there was more awareness than on his part of what I had been doing all those years. And more awareness on my part of working, you know, I started working on the books and working part-time, and how am I going to juggle that with childcare, you know, caring for my kids on my days? And so I think, at the end of the day, we probably have a better appreciation of each other's roles that we had during the marriage now that we're divorced.
One of my mottos, I guess, is that you're always learning and growing, and that's why we're here on the earth, is to learn and to grow and to explore and to love better. So this is, in some ways, an opportunity to learn how to rise above her feelings and co-parent better and model the types of behavior and resilience that I want my children to have. You know, one of the things that is really important to me, and it's really what my mission is, which is to help people divorce with dignity. And, you know, what does that mean?
And to me, it means to maintain my dignity, each person's dignity, through the divorce process, even though it sometimes feels really undignified. And sometimes the anger and the pain and the scariness and all of that threatens that dignity that each of us, I think, hold really dear. And we can find ourselves being our lowest, worst selves, you know, falling to the most base of our feelings and acting from that place. And it sounds, Susan, like you were really able to rise to a really good place, to, you know, your best self, and to work diligently to strengthen your best self.
How did you find the strength to do that in the middle of the divorce? Well, I was fortunate to have a lot of good friends and new friends, too, that I met through the divorce process, new, like, allies, I guess, mentors, through the art classes that I was taking. I had a therapist. Every week I went to the therapist, and that was another safe place to cry and be angry and then process.
And I was writing articles that helped me put things into perspective for a divorce blog. I kept a gratitude journal. I would say that was one of my key tools. You know, even that day on my gratitude page, you know, I was like, well, I'm glad that I have a full range of emotions that include this, and I was able to cry today.
You know, sometimes that was the most I could be grateful for today, but it was something, you know. And trying to focus on the blessings in my life, all the support I did have, and try to let go of those friends that, you know, you don't really lose friends in the divorce, but things shift in terms of who you're hanging out with, and open myself up to new possibilities of, you know, new friendships. And I try to do the same for my children, too. I noticed my younger son particularly, you know, we'd always had play dates with the same kids, and they were all in traditional marriages.
You know, mom and dad in the same home. And so when he was suddenly going between two homes, I could tell it really bothered him. It was sad. He didn't understand it.
He felt different. And so I cultivated a relationship with another parent sharing custody, and we had a play date. And so then the, oh, I'm at dad's house, I'm at mom's house was normalized for him. So it eases the fear.
So I think, you know, if you try to look at it as an opportunity for exploration and discovery and learning new ways of being, you know, the way that we are in relationships here in America is different than in other places. And it's different for every couple, every individual. And so you come to terms with loving your own life and your own adventure. And if you don't love it, then find ways of improving your situation.
You know, a previous guest of ours, Dr. Mark Bancik, talked about Divorce Island. He says when people are getting divorced, they go to the island. And, you know, life is different there, and it's more isolated.
And you have to find a way back to kind of back to the mainland, right? But it's not going to be in the same place. You know, the bridge you came over to get to the island has been burned. And now you need to build a new bridge to a new mainland and make new connections and figure out ways that really will work for you to build toward the life you want to lead in the future, not try to sort of go back or recreate the life you had in the past.
Would you agree with that? I do. And it's interesting. I actually wrote a poem soon after my separation called Bridges.
And it was about how I tried to create so many bridges between myself and my husband and finally gave up on that and decided to be, you know, where I was, enjoy my life as it was, you know, instead of trying to build bridges back to the past. It was kind of forging a new direction. So I do. It was interesting because at the time it felt very isolating, very lonely.
I didn't feel like I could hang out with my married friends anymore because they didn't. They loved me. They were kind and supportive, but they didn't understand where I was. You know, you're now a single woman.
So if they're doing a couple tonight, you don't feel like you fit anymore. And so I did develop a lot of friendships with women who were single or had been divorced and or I was in, you know, groups or art classes and building my own support until I stabilized and really kind of found my feet. And then all of those friends were still, you know, from before my marriage were still there. And I realized that, you know, I still had them in my life.
And now I was prepared to meet them from this new place of who I was now. And so your friendship race expanded because you were able to go back. Yes, I just released a young adult novel and the acknowledgments are two pages long. And I realized it's because there's been so many people in my life that have helped me to get where I am today.
And in all walks of life, you know, mom friends and writing friends and childhood friends. And those relationships are there for me. You know, they require nurturing and nourishing. I think, you know, if you go into a place of like, oh, so-and-so never calls me, you have to stop and say, well, I could call them, you know, or I could go do something interesting and fun on my own.
You know, you just have to take where you are and figure out the best possible path forward. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. You're listening to Dialogue on Divorce here on WVOX, 1460 AM, also available on our podcast, DivorceDialogue.com, as well as on iTunes and SoundCloud.
And I'm talking today with Susan Bernardo, the author of the children's book, Sun Kisses and Moon Hugs, about her divorce experiences. And Susan, where can people find more information about your books or yourself if they're interested? I have a website. It's www.susanbernardo.com.
And we also have a website for all of our books, which is innerflowerchild.com. And that's great. And what other books have you written? So Sun Kisses and Moon Hugs was the first one.
And put it out there. We crowdfunded and indie published it in a guide for a mommy blogger who fell in love with the book and sent a copy to Laura Burton. And he brought us on to collaborate with him on a book to help children coping with traumatic events. And that book is called The Rhino Who Swallowed a Storm.
And I'm really proud of that one. That one was actually sent up to the International Space Station. Wow. It was read aloud by an astronaut.
And it was read aloud by Michelle Obama as a kid at the military base. And it's all about helping kids process their turbulent emotions and realize that there are helpers in their life and that they can't get through any storm. And then the last picture book was The Big Adventure of a Tiny House, which is about an old farm house that is recycled into a tiny house on wheels and then sets up across the country to find out if it's still a real home. So I think there's this thread of picking up the pieces and moving forward and trying to find the positive in your life running through all of my books.
Yeah. And I also think an element of home, like what that means. Yes, definitely. That was actually, I thought about doing a project called Remaking Home because that's kind of what you have to do after any transition.
And it's not, my older son went off to college two years ago. And so that was another transition. How do you remake home once your nest starts to empty or a parent dies? And there's so many situations where life changes.
Divorce is not the only one. So developing resilience tools will serve you throughout life, not just in a divorce. Well, home is a place of great comfort. And it sounds like you've given a lot of thought to what home means.
And what would you say is at the core of what that is? I actually have lines in the book that I could read to you from The Big Adventure of a Tiny House. It could be a home anywhere because home wasn't a place. Home was a feeling, a smile on your face.
Home was friendship and singing in a full happy heart. They were sharing good meals and where you hung up your art. But you dropped your anchor or decided to roam. What called to your heart could still be called home.
It's really an emotional place. It sounds like. Yes, I think, you know, and it's been very interesting working with people in the tiny house movement. I don't know if you know about tiny houses and people really living a minimalist lifestyle in a very small space.
And some of them are on the road, like moving from place to place. And as a child, my parents moved frequently. And so I was constantly having to pick up and remake home and find friends in new places. And eventually you have to realize that you create home yourself.
And home could be a motel room, you know, that you're parked in. Or home could be the outside you were a weapon. But it is a feeling that you carry with you. And it's really threatened.
I think divorce really threatens that sense of home. And it sounds like you really found a way to recreate it for yourself and to re-find it and to explore what home means to you and to your children. Absolutely. That's been very important to me.
Well, Susan Bernardo, the author of Sunkist's Moonhugs, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show and to share your experiences of getting divorced and the exploration of who Susan Bernardo is and who she would become. Thank you again for your contributions to Dialogue on Divorce. Thank you so much. Thank you.