Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Catherine Miller. Divorce Dialogues brings expert guests to the airways to talk through your divorce questions and fill in the gray areas of that separating. From thinking about divorce, to how to behave during divorce, to what to do after, this is Divorce Dialogues.
Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Catherine Miller. I'm the founder of the Miller Law Group, director of the Center for Understanding and Conflict, and I am on a mission to change how people divorce and help them divorce with dignity. My guest today is Jory Rose.
She's a licensed marriage and family therapist, mindfulness and mediation teacher, meditation teacher. I'm the mediation teacher, author, speaker, and she leads mindfulness retreats around the world. She's helped thousands of people to live happier, more fulfilling lives, living with greater awareness and compassion, allowing them to decrease their stress, anxiety, and shed unhealthy habits, patterns, and mindsets. She's the host of the podcast Journey Forward with Jory Rose, and she's written two mindfulness books, Squirmy Learns to Be Mindful, and Mindful, It's Elementary.
She's been featured on OprahMagazine.com and many other outlets. Welcome, Jory. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Catherine, thank you so much for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here. You know, and I think that I have been a mindfulness practitioner for many years, and it's helped me so much in so many ways, professionally and personally. You know, a number of years ago, I had a case. It was a collaborative case, so we were working with an interdisciplinary team with two lawyers, and we had a mental professional.
We also had a mental health professional working with a couple in every session, and she would have us start each session with some mindfulness and a little bit of meditation. This was, you know, in New York City, and I thought, this is never going to work. These people are going to be like, laugh us out of the room, but it was amazing. It actually made a really big difference and changed the energy, you know, the way it could come in when you come into a negotiation session.
So talk to us about how that works. Why does that work, and why don't people run screaming from the room when you suggest it? Yeah, you know, Catherine, it's funny. I jokingly, but not so jokingly, say mindfulness is the answer to everything.
Whether you're sitting in traffic or dealing with cancer or anything in between, the tools are the same because it's all about how you respond versus react to whatever's arising in the moment. And we know that the way our brain is wired, that we get triggered, and our fight-flight-freeze gets activated, that tells us there's a real or perceived threat, and our body produces a physiological response, and we get so amped up. And that's when our reactions tend to not be very skillful, that when we say things we don't mean, that when we don't have the clarity of mind to think through our thoughts, to be able to accurately give space for our emotions rather than judge or resist or deny our emotions. And one of the keys of mindfulness is to just simply be aware of what's arising in your body, in your mind, in your emotions, and have the ability to pause.
And in that pause, you create space between those overwhelming thoughts, those overwhelming emotions, those triggers. And in that space, after you have that awareness and you're in that observation mind, you have the ability to choose what's the skillful response to this right now. And one of the ways to help you get to that skillful response is by taking a few deep breaths. It sounds overly simplified, and it's so helpful because what the breath actually does is it activates the rest and digest part of our brain, which is the opposite of that fight-flight-freeze.
And once that rest and digest part of our brain is activated, our emotional brain calms down, our executive functioning goes back to work, which is where you have logic, reason, rationality, decision-making, clear thinking, language, communication. So if you're in a situation that is highly triggering, you're acting out of that emotional brain almost all the time, which is why after the fact you might think, oh, we got nowhere. Why was I so triggered? How come we couldn't have a good conversation?
Well, it's because you couldn't access the part of your brain that allows you to have that healthy, productive, effective conversation. And that's mindfulness. It's really noticing what's arising, giving space around it, recognizing there's tools that can help you get through whatever it is that's either triggering you, that's distracting you, that's overwhelming, and give you a framework to be able to respond and not react. So I imagine those who are going through divorce, this is exactly what they need to be able to get through those challenging moments.
And in fact, Catherine, I went through my divorce about five and a half years ago, and had I not had a mindfulness practice, I would have really, really struggled a lot more than I actually did. Because I remember there were times where, you know, even though I was the one who really wanted the divorce, it was still not easy, right? I had been with my ex-husband since I was 13 years old. We'd had an over-23-year relationship and two children.
And another piece of the mindfulness practice that I drew upon constantly was to simply name what I was experiencing. And again, this sounds overly simplified, but if you can name what's happening in your mind or in your body, when you name it, you are, again, observing it rather than having it define you. So I literally, if no one was around, I would say out loud, this is what sadness feels like, or this is what fear feels like, or this is anxiety. And by naming it, I was able to just sit with it in a very compassionate way, because fear, anxiety, sadness, whatever emotion I was experiencing is part of the human experience.
So to offer myself the compassion for what I was feeling rather than judging or resisting or denying or pushing away what I was feeling, the ability just to sit with it and accept it actually helps make that emotion or that challenge perhaps a little bit easier, with a little bit more ease. And again, coming back to that compassion, it just made my emotions not so scary and overwhelming and triggering. Why do you think that is, that just naming something that would otherwise be overwhelming and triggering helps make it more manageable? You know, there's actually the science of our emotional trigger in our brain is called the amygdala, and it's the alarm that blares off when we have some trigger.
And studies have actually shown that when you name it, when you name that trigger, it actually quiets down the amygdala, it quiets down that alarm. And again, I think it's because you're giving it space to exist. And in that space, without that denial, resistance, and judgment, you're able to have deeper acceptance of what is because we know that that which we resist persists. The more we push something away, after the bigger it becomes.
People often want to compartmentalize and push it under the rug and I'll deal with it later, I'll deal with it later, this is too hard, I don't want to deal with this right now. And when we push it under the rug, we end up just tripping over a big pile under the rug. But when we can sit with acceptance, the irony is, like I said, it becomes easier to work through because the only way out is through. We're never going to get around dealing with those emotions.
But coming to it with acceptance and compassion makes it a lot easier. You know, that sounds really great. And I can imagine our listeners out there thinking, well, you know, she's a long-time practitioner. You know, she's got good practice with this.
But for me, when I sort of let myself think about my feelings, I get frozen and I get stuck. And do you have, Joy Rose, a way for people to think about starting to do this? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's a really great question, Cap, and I'm glad that you asked because when I did first start the practice of mindfulness, which is rooted in Buddhist meditation practice, and so meditation is the foundational practice of this, I really had no idea what I was doing and I actually didn't understand it.
I didn't understand why even just having awareness to shift my relationship to what I was experiencing wouldn't matter. And so it does begin with a meditation practice, which for me at the time when I started years ago, it still felt pretty woo-woo and not very mainstream. And I'll be honest, I was a little judgmental and thinking, well, that's not who I am, you know, quote unquote. I was a busy stay-at-home mom at the time of two young girls, and I wasn't, quote, the type who meditated because I mistakenly had an assumption that there had to be a type who meditated, but I'll be honest, that was, you know, a judgment and assumption at the time.
And I didn't know what I was supposed to do when I was going to meditate. I didn't understand, you know, what's the purpose. And over time, through different trainings and different workshops and just in deepening my practice, now that I teach this, I really like to give people a very approachable way of beginning this tool because if you don't meet yourself where you're at, then you're never going to succeed at it. So when I first started, I was told in order to pass this mindfulness, you needed a foundation to meditate 20 to 40 minutes a day.
And I could say that honestly at the time. That's not happening. I had 20 to 40 minutes a day, and if I did, it might not be spent in meditation. So I very compassionately said, okay, I know that's not going to work for me.
So I had to meet myself where I was at. So what did that look like? Well, I was in my car, and at the times when I would not have my kids in the car, I would turn off the radio, I would put down the phone, and I would allow myself to focus on my breathing while I was driving. And if there was traffic, I wouldn't judge the traffic or judge myself for being in the traffic.
I didn't cause it, so I can't fix it. And I would breathe. And I would consciously say the words breathing in, breathing out inside my mind as I connected with my breath. And I increased my awareness of my surroundings.
I really looked around. I noticed the colors of the hills. I noticed the colors of the cars around me. I noticed if there were flowers blooming, what kind of trees there were.
It's so simple. It sounds almost silly. But what I noticed is when I would consciously create the space while I was in my car alone. Of course, you know, in meditation, you have to keep your eyes closed.
So if you're in your car, please keep your eyes open. At least while driving. At least while driving. But what I found was incredible.
I found that I would get to wherever I was going feeling more peaceful, feeling more calm, feeling more present. So I would use that time in my car, especially it transitions in my day if I would rush from one thing to the next. And I noticed it also gained the ability to really be present in wherever I was at. So whether I was driving to my internship when I was gaining my hours to become a therapist.
And then afterwards, I'd go pick up my kids at school and then I would take them to their activities. By having this breathing practice while in the car helped me with those transitions and helped me arrive more fully present to what I was doing. So that's where I got my start. And so now I tell people, I'm not going to tell you you need to do 20 to 40 minutes a day because I still don't do that even though I have a well-established practice.
But I think people can find 30 seconds to a minute, maybe one, two, or three times throughout their day to slow down, to create some space for stoneness and silence and to connect with your breath intentionally and to just notice whatever's arising with compassion instead of judgment or resistance. And it sounds, again, overly simplified. But when we give ourselves the space for that stoneness and silence to connect with the breath, we start to shift. And when I met myself where I was at in this way, I found myself creating space at home in the morning to have a sitting practice.
And I look at meditation very, very practically. I say to my clients, and I lead weekly meditation classes as well. I say to my clients, meditation is simply practice for what happens off the cushion, so to speak. Because when you sit and you create that space for stoneness and silence, every single thing is going to come up.
Your mind is going to ramp up. Emotions are going to be present. Every pain or itch in your body is going to become louder. And the practice is simply in noticing it and choosing how to respond to it.
Because often our tendency is to be reactive, to get judgmental, to push things away. And in the meditation, we can just say, oh, look, there's a thought. Oh, look, this is this emotion. Oh, wow, I'm noticing my shoulder is really in pain.
Okay, let me send some extra healing energy and breath to my pain or to expand my consciousness to allow the thought to the emotions. And when we do that, they all just don't have as much of a charge as when we're in resistance or judgment of what's happening. So I even say to people, you know, there's actually a great acronym in practicing mindfulness and it's the acronym for the word stop. So you can literally do this while you're driving when you get to a red light or you get to a stop sign.
And the letters for the acronym stop, the S is for slow down. The T is for take a breath. The O is for observe, right? That's observing the thoughts, emotions, sensations, distraction.
And the P is for proceed. It's really that simple. So when I also guide people in starting a mindfulness practice and we start with this basis of a foundation of meditation, I like to also get past any myths or judgments or assumptions that people may have about meditation means because oftentimes people assume to meditate means to have a clear mind or you'll feel peaceful in a meditation or be all young like afterwards or during. And that's not the case.
Rarely do we actually feel peaceful or have a clear mind, especially at the beginning of a practice. So to get rid of those assumptions as a root marker for a quote successful meditation, to me, it's successful if you've created a space for it. Whatever happens, happens. I think that makes a lot of sense, especially for people going through a divorce.
I want to remind our listeners that I'm Catherine Miller. This is Divorce Dialogues and we're here on WVOX 1460 AM every other Wednesday from 5 to 5.30 and we're also available as a podcast wherever you listen to podcasts as well as on the podcast website, www.divorcedialogues.com and Jory Rose is our guest today. Jory, we've been talking a lot and I want to make sure that we give our listeners a chance to find out more about you. So can you give your website information, contact information?
Yeah, absolutely. So the best way to find me on my website, joryrose.com, J-O-R-E-E-R-O-S-E.com. You can follow me on Instagram at the same handle at Jory Rose or on Facebook at joryrose33. And as you mentioned in the opening, I also host a podcast called Journey Forward with Jory Rose which you can find on any of the major places where you might listen to a podcast as well.
That's great. I just want to back up a few minutes because a couple of minutes ago you talked about I think proceeding with choice and those are not exactly your words but that making a proactive choice rather than a reactive choice is how to act. And I think that for people thinking about or in the middle or even in marital conflict or conflict of any kind it's so important to come from a place of choice and personal control of how you are acting in the moment and I think that meditation and mindfulness can be so helpful with that. Yes, absolutely.
And you know, especially when we're triggered we want to respond reactively divorces at a therapist I've seen and among my friends who've gone through it and I think because it was rooted in choice and for example I'll give some examples of what that choice looked like. I remember there were times even though it was amicable you know there was still difficult emotions going around and I remember there were times I would receive a long text from my ex and he was hurting and that hurt came out of anger and behind the anger was sadness and pain and I chose when I would receive this kind of text I chose to not react to it and I chose to not engage in the battle around it and so what I would do is I would respond by saying please do not take my silence as accepted but I'm choosing not to engage in this conversation. So I acknowledged that he had sent me a text and I made a conscious choice to not engage in an argument and I drew a boundary around healthy ways that I am going to communicate. I think that's really good advice but also really hard to do and you obviously It's very hard to do.
And I think that one thing that happens when people are in that moment is that they take it personally and of course it is personally directed right but it's really and it might be something that you did to upset him or her depending on the situation but it's really about their reaction which they have to own and you don't have to own it and you can't change it. Exactly and you know one of the major shifts that you know I just want to remind the listeners I practice these tools and I still get stuck and now I'm in a relationship with my boyfriend of almost four years and he happens to be in the same field as I am and we teach all these tools and as a couple we also still get stuck so even if you are skilled and practice in these you're still human I'm still human but when I get triggered and even if I start to react I can still have a choice to not finish in reaction right I can redirect and recorrect my intentions at any moment that's a beautiful thing about mindfulness it's a moment by moment practice every moment is an opportunity to practice you might start off with an unskillful reaction checking with your body and say this isn't how my intention of communication is what I want to proceed with and redirect it but what I want to say is I still do get stuck and it's a reminder of my humanness but when I would get stuck I had to remember to come back to compassion compassion for myself that this is really hard and compassion for him and in the beginning I wasn't as good with the compassion for him. I would take it personally, like you said. I would really feel like it was a personal attack if he was angry.
And I realized I was taking that on too much. And like you had said, it's not about me managing his emotions and needing to feel responsible for them. But when I energetically shifted my whole energy towards looking for the spot of compassion, because even if he was reacting in anger, and I was able to hold the space for, he's reacting in anger because he's hurting. If I respond with a compassionate response, now, I couldn't have said that out loud to him.
If I were to say out loud, you know, well, I'm really noticing you're angry, and I'm going to respond in compassion, that would have triggered him more. Of course. So it has to be my energetic response of how I chose to sit with what was coming towards me and what I wanted to put back out. And when I was able to respond in a compassionate manner, and, you know, and I guide this through my clients so often, and especially the women who I work with who are divorcing narcissists.
Yes. One of the best things they can do is arm themselves with information, understanding narcissism, because when they understand the patterns of a narcissist, then they can have an easier time not taking the behaviors personally. Absolutely. I think that's really good advice.
And this is the hardest thing for them to do. But if you can have mindfulness around the patterns, it's easier to not take it so personal and to know how to respond versus react. Well, let me ask you this. And it feels really personal.
It feels personal. It's intense to be personal. And it's at the root of it. Yeah.
But I think the thing, you know, it's interesting what you said in the beginning for you in your own personal experience, it was hard to have compassion for him. I think that people have a really hard time having compassion for themselves. Because I think that one thing that makes people really angry at the end of relationships, at the end of many things, is, you know, the shoulda, woulda, couldas. I maybe should have done this, or I should have done that, or I could have done more this, or more that.
Or, you know, and ultimately a lot of anger that finds itself directed at the other person is really anger at themselves. So talk a little bit about how mindfulness can help you, anyone, be more compassionate. You know, if you have any techniques as to how people can maybe slide themselves a break even in the most difficult moments, that would be great. Yes, absolutely.
You know, at the root of them having that frustration or anger turned towards themselves, that that shoulda, woulda, coulda, I often find at the root of that is a lack of feeling of self-worth. Yes. And the inner critic takes over in their mind. And the stories that they're not only creating, but believing become bigger the more power they give the inner critic.
And so one of the things that I like to do when I see clients being stuck in that lack of self-worth belief story is to help understand the message behind the inner critic. So if your inner critic is telling you in a really mean tone of voice and maybe some harsh words, you know, you weren't a good partner, or you're not worthy of being loved, or, you know, you couldn't fulfill your partner's needs. If we can peel back the layers of the story of the inner critic, I really believe our inner critic is there to protect us in some way. And if we can have compassion for the part of ourselves of how we feel when our inner critic talks to us, and be curious around what's the ultimate root message behind the inner critic, and replace it with a compassionate rewording of that, that is one of the ways, and I know this one's kind of complex, but this is one of the ways that people can begin to reframe that story that they're believing.
Because it is a story they're believing. At the root of it is, you know, sadness. At the root of it is loss. At the root of it may be something deeper in their childhood or something that they had a previous trauma around.
And we also know that, you know, from attachment theory and early childhood attachments, why are our brains what love looks like? So this helps people, you know, when they come to me, I can help them understand why they maybe keep recreating similar dysfunctional patterns. And until we have an awareness of the patterns and their engagement in those patterns, then they can sort of shift out of them. So I think your question is such an important one and has so many various ways to manage that.
And I also think that people sometimes come from a reactivity, from a place of feeling unsafe, and that when you return your attention to some really simple things like your breath, or the way it feels to sit on your chair, or your hands on the steering wheel, or whatever, you realize that you are safe. And then that can help calm down the amygdala and all the other stuff that's going on in your brain. What do you think about that? I think 100%.
And I actually want to add one thing to that. Sometimes when people have really strong anxiety, and if they're really getting triggered on the verge of like a panic attack, sometimes the breath is not feeling safe to them, because they feel like they can't breathe, and it's hard to access the breath. So I love what you just mentioned of, you know, holding your hands on the steering wheel, or feeling the chair beneath you, or feeling your feet on the ground, because we can also do external groundings to get you into your body and into this moment. It's not always the breath.
And those are reminders. And, you know, even adopting a little mantra of I am safe. In fact, one of the main things that got me through my divorce was my own loving kindness mantra. I said to myself daily, may I be strong and confident, may I be capable, and may I be happy and fulfilled.
And I was the only one who could give me those messages. And I repeated that daily until I actually believed it. A great place to stop is to tell yourself messages of positivity. Thank you, Jory Rose, for being our guest on Divorce.com.
It's been great. Thank you so much, Katherine.