Why Business Leaders Need Negotiation Skills

First aired August 23, 2026 Annette Mullin spent 24 years with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, nine of them as a crisis negotiator, eventually leading one of the busiest negotiation teams in the country â€" averaging over 100 call-outs a year. She worked patrol, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before spending her final years as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history. Now a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss, Annette translates those high-stakes lessons into practical tools for leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure, conflict, and growth. We talk about the universal need she discovered in every person she ever negotiated with, why the crime itself is almost always a secondary issue, what "tactical empathy" actually looks like in practice, and why most of us were never actually taught how to listen. Watch this episode Youtube episode link here In this episode How the O.J. Simpson case and a criminalistics program in LA sparked Annette's path into crime scene investigation, and why she chose Las Vegas over LAPD Joining LVMPD's crisis negotiation team, and what made Las Vegas's team one of the busiest in the country Becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, and the advice that helped her navigate a male-dominated field without making it about gender Why removing assumptions, and getting curious instead of judgmental, changed how she worked with people in crisis The universal need Annette discovered every person in crisis shares, no matter how different the circumstances Why the crime itself is almost always a secondary issue, and what's usually driving it underneath How Chris Voss's "tactical empathy" model, from Never Split the Difference, turns negotiation into collaboration instead of a tug-of-war The five levels of listening Black Swan teaches, and why most of us are trained to listen to respond instead of to understand Timestamps (00:01) Welcome and guest intro: meet retired LVMPD crisis negotiator Annette Mullin (02:23) From the East Coast to Las Vegas: the O.J. Simpson case and her path into crime scene investigation (04:42) Joining the crisis negotiation team, and Las Vegas's brutal call-out numbers (06:36) Retiring after serving as director of employee wellness following the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting (08:15) What drew her to law enforcement as a kid, from Nancy Drew to Quincy, M.E. (10:10) Navigating gender in a male-dominated field, and becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant (14:00) Removing assumptions: why curiosity beats judgment when someone has "a chip on their shoulder" (16:52) The universal need every person in crisis shares, and why that surprised her most (20:05) Why the crime is almost always the secondary issue (24:28) From hostage negotiation to the boardroom: Chris Voss, Black Swan Group, and tactical empathy (28:43) The biggest obstacle to listening, and the five levels of listening Black Swan teaches (31:50) The number one struggle business leaders bring to her, and why practicing in "low stakes" moments matters (34:12) Where to find Annette, Black Swan Group, and the new book Fight Less, Win More About Annette Mullin Annette Mullin is a retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department leader with 24 years of law enforcement experience, including nine years as a crisis negotiator and eventual leader of LVMPD's crisis negotiation team, one of the busiest in the country. Over her career she worked patrol, community policing, sexual assault, internal affairs, and homicide, becoming LVMPD's first female homicide sergeant, before serving as the department's director of employee wellness in the aftermath of the October 1 Mandalay Bay shooting. Now a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss, Annette teaches the principles behind Never Split the Difference, including tactical empathy, to leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure and conflict in business and life. Learn more at the Black Swan Group, or connect with Annette on LinkedIn. Favorite quotes "There is a universal need for every person to be heard, to be seen, and to be understood."  "Not everybody is like you. Removing assumptions was really key, let them show you or tell you."  "If I read a book about working out every week but never lift a weight, I can't expect to see anything different."  Resources mentioned Black Swan Group: negotiation training founded by former FBI lead hostage negotiator Chris Voss Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss: the book that brings hostage-negotiation principles like tactical empathy into business and everyday life Fight Less, Win More: Chris Voss's newest book, adapting those same skills for personal relationships Annette Mullin on LinkedIn Subscribe & connect If this episode gave you something to sit with, follow Phoenix and Flame so you never miss an episode: all apps in one place, or jump straight to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or YouTube. And if it moved you, leave a review; it's the easiest way to help another listener find the show. Learn more about Phoenix and Flame, connect with Dana, and listen to more episodes here. 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