This is the Defenders podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're back talking about Marvel's Wonder Man, Episode 7, Kathy Friedman. Simon, I know why you're so concerned about me in this article, okay? But you're safe.
I didn't say anything about your secret. My secret. Simon, I know. we lived together i loved you i knew for a long time that you are different i just i didn't want to say anything because it didn't feel like it was my place and of course i understood why you had to be careful why no one could know but you could have trusted me i was always waiting for you to trust me and I hope one day you find someone that you can trust someone you can really be yourself with welcome back fellow defenders to tv podcast industries we are continuing our coverage of marvel's wonder man with the penultimate episode episode seven kathy friedman i'm one of your hosts derek hello there fellow defenders i am one of your other hosts kathy friedman and i'm here to talk about the evil Joseph Gordon-Levitt and his murdering pigeon ways.
That's always the way, isn't it? We've got to save the pigeons. I'm one of your hosts, Chris. And I'm actually, a.k.a.
John. It is. It is John and Chris. Yes.
Yeah, it's always the quiet ones that end up being pigeon murderers, isn't it? I love Joseph Gordon-Levitt. He can do no wrong, even if he is killing a flying rat. I think it's hilarious that you actually mentioned Joseph Gordon-Levitt in a previous episode as being one of your favourite actors and then you get to this episode and they talking all about him It hilarious A show is just made for us I think somehow Yes And welcome back Chris Thank you.
We've been missing you for a couple of episodes. We had you kind of on and off this season, but great to have you back for the last two episodes of the show. That's the way, you know. This is the way.
Keeping it in the Disney motif, if you will. This is the way. The Disney family. Yes.
Well, after the Super Bowl, they have turned into beer delivering, I guess, operatives. Superheroes. With tonsons to deliver galactic Budweiser. That was such a good ad.
And like so many people, this was an ad or a spot that came out for The Mandalorian during the Super Bowl. And it is essentially a riff on an old Budweiser commercial. but so many people did not understand the riff on the Budweiser commercial part because everyone was like what was that? and I'm like no, okay You think it's going to be Clydesdale horses and it turns out to be Tauntauns it's hilarious it's only 10 seconds as well and John, just to correct you they definitely have no mention of beer in there at all it's just supposed to be reminiscent of Budweiser it is literally just the reveal of Mando and Grogu on a cart being pulled along my tantans.
It's a joke. But people freak it out about it going, that's not going to be representative of the final movie. I'm like, I hope not because it's only 10 seconds. It's not going to be representative hopefully of a two hour movie.
It's just a funny joke. They've given up the good cause and they're intergalactic deliverers of, well effectively intergalactic Uber Eats for blue milk. Who cares about bounty hunters? We're on to just eat now.
But anyway. This is the way to my stomach. we are starting out on a completely different thread as usual but we are going to get straight into our discussion all about the penultimate episode of wonder man if you haven't subscribed to the podcast you've listed the seven episodes of wonder man you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet go on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com subscribe over there loads of options over there you can also see our full schedule for 2026 by just going to tvpodcastindustries.com slash 2026 and you'll see all the shows that we're covering and for the rest of the year there is a heck of a lot of them coming just before summertime certainly is and we want to hear your thoughts about all those shows that we want to hear your feedback Just email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries Pop over to our Discord which you find the link to in the show notes for this very podcast Or you can pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash TV Podcast Industries and join us over there as well, where we talk about all those wonderful trailers and all those wonderful shows that we're going to be talking about for the rest of the year. With that all said and done, Derek, do you want to tell us who gave us what, where, when and how with the episode details?
Absolutely. Yes. Executive producers of the show are, of course, Kevin Feige, Stephen Persant, Jonathan Schwartz, Louis Desfazito, Brad Winderbaum, Destin Daniel Cretton and Andrew Guest. This episode was written by Ciara Talese and the showrunner, Andrew Guest.
Ciara is one of the story editors for the entire series, and this is her first writing credit on the show. The director of the episode is Stella McGee. She's worked on many shows and movies before this, including Grown-ish, and directed a movie called Photograph back in 2020. But she is the director of this episode and the finale as well.
Excellent. Yeah, cool stuff. And, of course, we have Destin, Daniel Cressy, and Andrew Guest as the creators and showrunners for this. Yes, we do.
Yes, we do. Oh, and I want to make a correction to something I've been saying since the beginning of the season. I don't know how I got this wrong, but Wonder Man's first appearance was in Avengers issue 9, which was written by Don Heck and Jack Kirby at the beginning of the series I was calling out Avengers issue 8 which obscured a nice easter egg that's been in the show the whole way through which is that Simon Williams lives in apartment number 9 which is his first appearance in Avengers so there you go and I messed it up never mind not the only mess up that we've made it always happens this is live baby it's not live at all it's edited it's adjusted it's researched we chat about all the stuff we take out anything that let me get wrong and then everybody finds stuff that we get wrong including me after the fact on the edge it's like in from work got a podcast yes yes it's not our permanent job and we're not we're not paid for it so yeah maybe that's what it is but john do you want to tell us what they gave us for wonder man episode seven with your synopsis for the episode sure filming on the Wonder Man movie begins. Simon Williams struggles to be personable with the crew and to communicate his thoughts on the script, but is helped along by Trevor Slattery.
At a dinner meeting with his team, his agent Janelle informs the purr that the New York Times journalist Kathy Friedman is writing a profile on them Terrifying Simon who describes her as a character assassin of the highest order who could discover and reveal his secret just like she did with Joseph Gordon-Levitt. He becomes paranoid after learning that Friedman talked to his ex-girlfriend Vivian his mom and brother Eric about him for her story. Vivian reveals to Simon that she knows he has powers, but she did not say anything about them to Friedman. Still concerned as they sit down for their joint interview with Cathy Friedman the next day, Simon is surprised to learn that Eric only had good things to say and he's really proud of him.
It wasn't Simon who should have been concerned, as Cathy Friedman grills Trevor about what happened after his arrest when he returned to US soil and asks him what government deal he cut to avoid returning to prison, prompting him to walk out of the interview. Confronted by Simon, Trevor confesses the truth of his deal with the Department of Damage Control to spy on Simon, but promises that he will find a way to get out of it. Upset and overwhelmed, Simon goes to the Wonder Man soundstage and unleashes a large explosion that destroys the entire set. That was some powerful explosion.
Oh, absolutely. wasn't it massive definitely it was really good seeing the extent of his powers like full power up but I also like the reaction after it how he how Yaha portrays that we'll get into that a bit later absolutely let's kick off with our takes for the episode let's start with our take number one quite on set take one action we're finally at filming of wonder man um simon on set uh trevor on set um i love this opening where we have uh trevor in his uh in his caravan or in his uh amazing looking um backstage area where he's warming himself up and he's playing with the gun as if he's a if he's a kid again you know uh getting himself ready to go on uh go on set but there's so much good fun here behind the scenes with Trevor and Simon in there. Oh, definitely. I just love the fact you have Simon, you know, getting driven to wardrobe for the testing, you know, and ultimately you've got Trevor then saying it's a bit saddened.
snug in the undercarriage for his Barnaby outfit. Absolutely. He kind of takes everything away from it, and he goes, well, I might want to have babies one day. So, again, I just love the pitter-patter of this, and certainly here in terms of that filming on the soundstage, doing all the different tests.
It's really just good fun between the two of them. But at the same time, you do see the level or the extent to which Simon is using Trevor as a crutch to navigate, I guess, the emotions of it, the process of it. You know, you name it. So it's really good.
Yeah, absolutely. I love that line from Sir Ben Kingsley about wanting more cross space because he might want to have kids. Sir Ben Kingsley is getting up into his 80s now and he does reference another actor who was 81 when he had a child. I know Al Pacino, I think, recently had a child at 78 or 79 years old as well.
So there is a little reference there that there's a possibility that the character of Trevor is the same age as Sir Ben Kingsley. But did you notice that Simon also comments on it and goes, you're about as tight as Trevor's pants and they agree, actually maybe we will let it out a little bit so the two of them do actually work together to get what Trevor wants yeah look I love these overall scenes it's interesting usually throughout a show or a season you're supposed to see this huge character growth the whole thing with Simon is we're trying to see that he has grown or is growing based on his involvement with Trevor and what's actually interesting is especially with the back and forth that they have on the lines and or the sunglasses simon is still very much in his own head he is getting in his own way and it's only through trevor i would say through trevor actually being the one to almost kind of run blocker yes on a lot of it i'd say like simon simon is the guy that is the one that everyone disagrees with and dislikes. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't have a great reputation around the set.
There's even moments in this episode where he says people names and they go I didn even realize you knew my name which I thought was hilarious But the actual line disagreement is one of my favorite moments because it a callback obviously to the first episode where simon was on set with no help at all uh on american horror story where he tried to uh push into his entire self into two lines and got fired for it or uh politely let go or they went in a different direction uh but because of the interference or help from trevor he gets to stay on board but i love how the scene play plays out because he gets exactly what he wants the director and writer come into the trailer uh come into hair and makeup to talk to him about the line the one he's saying that he's got a bit of a concern about is the line says you'll never redeem yourself to me and simon's saying that doesn't feel like my version of wonder man my version of wonder man wouldn't talk like that that sounds like something he'd say much earlier on um before he's had his whole arc um and there's a great moment of on hovex going maybe it's a bigger problem maybe we need to look at the concept of redemption entirely in this movie so he's going to tear apart the entire script script and rewrite it and only for trevor over the other side of the room going um maybe we could use the i'll never forgive you instead of you'll never redeem yourself to me oh actually yeah that worked great yep yep no problem let's move on you know it's such a simple change to a line he's absolutely right no human being would say you'll never redeem yourself to me that actually sounds like a comic book bubble from the 60s as opposed to a real line from someone in a movie so uh so trevor has just corrected it to real human language and everybody's back on board again absolutely that could have stopped production for weeks while they retooled the whole script to remove redemption from it i just think it's hilarious i do love this is seemingly very meta uh kind of in terms of we know that this whole show is a joke or is a poking meta joke at Hollywood as a whole. But seemingly this is also what happens quite often with a lot of the Marvel projects and films is that even as they are kind of that morning filming a scene, they are rewriting scripts and due to people going, well, I don't know if my character would iterate it this way or orate it this way. And you're like, well. So So, yeah, seemingly this is a lot of poking fun, but my God, this would kill me.
He's like, let's just change the whole thing. The idea that you would change the entire concept You know you try and bring it back like like Eric was talking to Simon about his job and his job being to audition for roles is like when you do an interview for a job, right? If this was our job and we were hired for a role, we got in the door and they went, actually the thing we told you that this was the whole job was about, we've rethought that. And we're going to give you a completely different job.
Can you imagine how quickly you'd be running out the door, you know, but you can't do that in a movie. that's the point so the fact that trevor has changed this one line could have actually saved the movie in its entirety in a way absolutely no it's a great moment i love just von kovac coming in and uh to the the trailer and saying so where is this offending dialogue so it's all played really nicely um and then it kind of you know also with the disagreement on the sunglasses and i like here you know ultimately simon wants to get the the old ones um from the almost for them to look like the original ones as close as possible as close as possible and the costume designer is trying to put his stamp on the movie as everybody does so the costume designer is saying but i want to kind of give it its own flair when i give it something something newer something up up to date and simon's kind of telling no no go back to the we'd love it to stay the way it is you know like simon's got a lot of input in this project really um which is something that he's always wanted right so yeah absolutely and also with this filming then he's getting attention as there's that nice little scene there with simon janelle and um a group of other studios of executives uh but trevor's there again interjecting himself into this meeting with his agent and on and about future projects but I do like again there's a bit of I guess foreshadowing on the nose here where you know Simon is basically going to go with Trevor's suggestion that he wants to do theatre even though there's this you know packed ready to kind of project that he can do immediately after wonder man yeah and and you have uh simon saying you know i know i trust trevor's view here yeah and you know there's the trust element and and even as he says that though you have janelle going um we did this so you could leave theater behind what are you doing yeah like why have you asked him here and so i this this was a nice little moment as well we just kind of flowing on from the filming that you know actually simon getting a bit of interest yes and what i love about it if you think about the entire arc of the series so far the job for wonder man was brought to him by trevor slattery yes okay it was a it was a trap to try and spy on him but that was the role that got to him his agency didn't do anything the last time he was in the office for the agency he walked in in a meeting of all of these agents who are now taking credit for his career and trying to push him down a path that he doesn't want to go down he's believing in trevor because trevor was the only person that at this time he believes was actually able to get him the role that he wanted his dream job even janelle who i absolutely love i think she's amazing she didn't help him get this role um she maybe did some stuff after the initial read that he did. But this was really Simon and Trevor's part together. And now suddenly everybody else is taking credit.
They're trying to push him into being in a Shonda Rhimes show. Now, Shonda Rhimes is massively famous. She's done some of the biggest TV shows that ran for six or seven seasons. But you would suddenly have Simon Williams, this movie star in Wonder Man.
He wants to be the biggest action star in the world. And he could be hidden away in a Shonda Rhimes TV show for seven years. Yeah. Shonda Rhimes did things like How to Get Away With Murder.
So, you know, massive actors have been in her TV shows, but have kind of disappeared from movies for those six or seven years that she's working on the shows, which is something I don't think would fit in with Simon Williams's career. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Very interesting.
Little bits in the background of what's going on as well. Yeah. Well, let's get on to our second take from episode seven. Take two.
Action. It's the Cathy Friedman interview. Part of the discussion that's happening at the table with all of the agents are that they've set up an interview or an article from Cathy Friedman from The New York Times. They think this is massively exciting.
You're going to have the eyes of the world on an article. But instantly we have the reaction from Simon where he is very unhappy to be under this kind of scrutiny. He's a person that's spent his entire life hiding part of himself from the outside world. And suddenly someone from The New York Times is well known about digging up those hidden parts of yourself is now been tasked to to do this interview.
piece on Trevor and Simon. Yeah, no, it is, like, it's totally understandable that, you know, Simon would just be freaking out about, you know, the potential for scrutiny here, and I like how that kind of develops through, you know, like, the concern over her, you know, trying to get more context and background to his life through his family and through his former acquaintances, of which there are very few, which, you know, feeds in, again, this notion that he's a loner yes and but equally and the the reverse here is true of trevor where he seems quite positive towards that he should be concerned and rather than being concerned about uh you know the the level of uh scrutiny and i mean simon ultimately worried she will discover his secret and but trevor then you know less so here which is a little bit of a mistake as we move through the episode. But yeah, it's really interesting to see this actress, Lauren Weidman, play Kathy Threedman because we'd literally just been watching her in Hacks. She's the mayor of Las Vegas.
And it was like, ah, recognize her. So that was kind of a nice little sort of point of reference. But equally, again, another story about the inner workings of the entertainment industry with Hacks. But Lauren Weidman, I think we actually had watched the second episode of season two and she's really sensual in maybe it might have been towards the end of season one but she's really sensual in that show she's hilarious and every time she's on screen she's really funny and then we turned on this episode and went i kind of recognize that woman it's the same woman we saw her in the same night two different shows both really stand out um but i love here that she is almost dressing like um scarlett johansson uh undercover like as the black whether that's kind of the look that she's got.
Definitely. There is definite Scarlett Johansson vibes in a sort of Mission Impossible face mask going on here with her. So, like, virtues for that little, I guess accidental kind of nod to another member of the MCU. But you never know.
Maybe it was totally on purpose. Yeah. Yeah So I have a question Is this a commentary on say back in the day where certain Hollywood stars were LGBTQ plus and were getting kind of held not held for ransom but like didn do interviews because they didn want their that side of them to come out. Because that's how it felt, how it feels, especially when you start to hear like these big long, they make light of it in terms of the Joseph Gordon-Levitt kind of jokes but it does feel like they're they're talking more about that's how it kind of came across to me which is okay this is like the the the powers for for simon is what in real life would be potentially someone's sexuality absolutely so okay absolutely no i'm so glad you said it because i was gonna say if we have it written down here and i was kind of going well you know as a gay couple who do the podcast about the tv show are we just reading into this we specifically said when we saw it the scene between vivian where she talks to simon and tells him i've known your secret i lived with you i loved you um of course i know it but i'm never going to tell anybody i was waiting for you to have the courage to tell me i'm not going to be the person that would tell you that you have powers is kind of the way that she says it we went you know there's a scene in heated rivalry where one of the guy's girlfriend says almost verbatim these words oh okay one of the characters who's in a sexual relationship with another guy um and she lets him down easy they break up and she says to him i'll be your friend forever of course but i always knew this about you you didn't need to tell me you know so it also explains you know simon's constant freak out you know i mean i love the fact that as soon as he hears that vivian has been approached by by kathy yeah it's like he freaks out and organizes a meeting at a bar and i love the fact that she's so onto it straight from the get-go it is really really good it's that notion of you know just her knowing simon better than in some cases he knows himself and even just then after she you know she says that really nice touching supportive thing it suddenly comes back to being about simon you know because she's they start talking about jobs and she tells him that you know this is the first role she's had with multiple costume changes and looks and so on and he starts going into the look of the wonder man costume costing up to probably more than half a million dollars and she i love just where she like looks at him and he like yeah crazy yeah crazy you know just like all about you all about you totally self yeah and as a gay man i can also appreciate that absolutely so i i think it absolutely is bang on that but it so nicely observed i think but there's little touches i think you know i think bits of simon have bled into the writing bits of the writing have bled into simon right um you know the fact that he's sitting at the counter at the the bar here with an alcoholic drink and she walks in and goes no i'm just gonna have a water like obviously this isn't a social occasion uh for her but he's probably using the alcohol because he's really nervous about this situation right we know simon's not a massive drinker he's that's failed for him in the past he's not someone that goes out and gets drunk but he may be using alcohol to stabilize himself because he might be finding out from his girlfriend that this new york times reporter has found out of his powers and his entire career could be ruined right so he's sitting there at the bar with an alcoholic drink unusual for simon i think so yeah just little things again that they seem to be able to put into the show um i do want to talk about uh simon reading out some of the bits from the articles okay so the joseph gordon levitt piece where they talk about joseph gordon levitt and they never mentioned that he did torture a pigeon but they both assumed that that's what he must have done when he was eight years old and she's written it so well in the article but the assumption that everybody would take away is that he is cruel to animals right which is awful and i wonder why they chose joseph gordon levitt because he seems like such a nice guy.
I guess he'd find it funny. I guess he'd find it funny that he's been mentioned in an MCU project in that way. And then Glenn Harrison, who is from Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and they talk about him as one of the most charming guys out there, but he's been taken apart by Cathy Freeman. And all she said about him was that he played with his salad listlessly, trying to find some charm in there.
Spoiler, he didn't. which i absolutely love i think that's hilarious it is yes great commentaries of that really really good yeah yeah um i think as well the other thing to mention on this point as well again is you know not only does simon freak out uh about vivian but then he freaks out when he hears that his his mom and his brother have been also approached and you know i i love the fact that Trevor brings him back to his box breathing on this yes um you know you see Simon is mega worried and I love the fact you have Trevor calming him down his eyes are going purple as you know kathy freeman is there coming up to say good morning and hello the next day and in the end again you know he had the support of his family both from his mom but equally you know as she says um sort of in trying to inquire about his relationship with Eric and you know you have her saying well he said really beautiful things about how you've struggled for a long time to get roles but how you kept going and all this and so he's really pleased that you've now got it so like even again yes Eric was at him but it's also Simon's internalization of all that. Absolutely. Thinking that his brother actually isn't a nice brother when he is a nice brother.
He just wants him to get a job and now he has a job so now he's really proud of him. It's a massive job and it's the one he wants so that's great right? Yes Eric is an a-hole. He really was but now that he's got a job he's going to be proud of him.
That's it. That's all it was. He just was going it's been nine years now and you're basically taking money from mom or me and buying stuff for mom with the money that I give you. You're going way beyond that.
get a job you know um most actors in hollywood work as waiters right uh along with doing this sam has no job at all while auditioning right yes his job is just to audition as he says but most people that do that will be um living off some kind of funding that they've had from maybe a part in the past so uh interesting that that simon's been doing that for so long but yes it's lovely to hear the way she says it that he's so proud of you and you get that reaction from uh from Simon to wow, my brother actually does believe in me. Yeah, no, definitely. But this sit-down interview part does lead to our final, our third and final take of the episode. Got to go one last time.
Take three. Action. The truth reveal. Because it is the investigative reporting of Cathy Friedman that uncovers the big hidden thing that's been going on all season.
She knows that Trevor shouldn't be out and free. She knows he was considered a terrorist, arrested and put in prison, broken out of prison and then disappeared. But you can't be broken out of prison and then be back in Hollywood going for a movie. So what did you do?
Oh, she. investigated when he arrived back in the country, found lots of people that were at the airport, including people that filmed and being taken down by the FBI. Again, you don't get taken down by the FBI and then suddenly be in a Hollywood movie without any kind of conversation at all. But I love that she's doing an interview with both Simon and Trevor and brings it up to Trevor in front of Simon, knowing there must be something here that she can really dig into.
And yeah. I really like how she frames it as well. She goes, you know, the pivot from fugitive to movie star is fascinating. How are you able to still be sitting here?
You must have made a deal, otherwise you wouldn't be. So it's not even, you know, she's not found evidence of the deal, but she's just logically, rationally going, but we saw you getting arrested. It's all over social media. but you're here about to be in one of the most fascinating sort of movie productions um this year with an auteur sort of coming in to do a superhero movie so um yeah i just thought this was really good and how then it's trevor who despite being sort of quite up for kathy freeman just starts to get absolutely agitated and walked out i love it as just an audience this for me was you're you're you assume much like simon throughout this all the lead-up of this episode that the the big reveal will be simon's powers that is the thing that is the crux that will destroy the the film destroy simon's career like that's what we're leading towards and to have i i say like as a joke they zigged instead of zagging like they they very much flipped the the the kind of narrative and the assumed script because that's a more interesting story and that is the bit like a terrorist turned actor gets a deal and that's what a journalist would do absolutely so as a writer they went to that point but as an audience you're sitting there going oh this is how it all then comes out and we've talked so much about yaya and sir bing's kingsley really feeding off each other and kind of chewing the scenery between each other this scene where starts to kind of boil over is just fantastic Oh it fantastic It's one of those big scenes where you're like, you could strip away all the powers, strip away all the Marvelite aspects, and it would still just be a powerful kind of dialogue between two characters.
Absolutely. like I thought Ben Kingsley here in terms of you know when Simon's kind of in his trailer asking him questions and he's like well were you arrested and he's like no well yes you know did you make a deal and he's kind of like and it's in a sense you see him going through it but he's like well I've been working for damage the department of damage control collecting information on you and he's like but I know I just loved, I don't, I mean, he bangs his fists together and it's just how he goes, but I know I can figure this out, how to get out of this mess that he's got himself into. Because you have Simon coming back at him saying, well, does that mean like Midnight Cowboy, the audition, my mum's birthday, all, are they all lies? like you say chris it's this is the reveal yeah and the main reveal the big reveal because yes simon has powers yes we've seen glimpses of them and we get to see a big glimpse of them which is cool after this confrontation but in the first instance you know the development of simon has been to finally trust someone again which is trevor and he's this is the point of et tu brute really.
This is the knife in the back. As he says, I bought it like an idiot. And well done on the performance. And then he walks off to the sound stage and you just see him like a boiling kettle, gradually trying to let off that steam.
I love that. Even just the subtle special effects that you're using as Simon's walking from Trevor's trailer to the sound stage that you can see everything rumbling around him as he's going. Everything he passes by is shaking slightly just before he gets to that soundstage, and then he lets the explosion out, destroying the whole soundstage that he at It fantastic I just love that you can feel bubbling up inside of him It brilliant And again to go right back to the first moment we talked about in the episode, the line disagreements that kicked off the filming of Wonder Man, the line that Simon was disagreeing on was, well, I'd never say a line like, you'll never redeem yourself to me. And the agreement that they have is that they will land on the line, I'll never forgive you.
And here we are at the end of the episode. Trevor has betrayed Simon Simon's finding out about it that is the line that you're expecting him to say is I'll never forgive you for what you've done so I love how this is all tied in again really well written really well put together and this explosive moment at the end and it's almost in the eyes of Yaya you see that he's feeling a bit of remorse for what he's done but needed to have that release even though this could mean the end of everything for him right this could kill his career completely he's he's in the most um visible place of his career as the lead actor in a movie and here he is using his powers on the set right yeah absolutely but i mean as i say i think even after the explosive reaction i mean i love the arcing sort of almost you know palpatine s type sparks coming coming from him sort of bringing it uh together his eyes and all that and that kind of prime primeval scream that he does but i think even just his reaction after that you know you see the explosion from the outside you hear all the alarms kathy freeman's looking back and it goes back in there's all this sort of dust flying around and it's just his breathing there's this resignation in his eyes and this betrayal uh from simon and i think that's just captured really well in that moment is sort of deep breathing it's almost like he's the effort he just wants to sigh but he can't because of the effort of doing what he's just done so yeah absolutely really really good Chris anything else on the final truth reveal no really just this hasn't been say a CGI tastic kind of show so when they have decided to show some form of kind of Simon's power set I think it just works really well And this being the most dramatic kind of use case of his powers they poured the right money into this Yes It just it done in a way that you like that as a power set with what we seen him do from like the fight to the crack in the wall when he's fighting he's controlled whereas this is just pure raw motion detonation i just thought it was cool it was just a really nice showcase of that and can only imagine how that will look on the silver screen in the future if we get him in the films. Right. If, being major.
It would be fantastic to see because you can just imagine him like taking out a bridge. Well, absolutely. Like, you know, the comic book version of Wonder Man, his powers are enough that he could go toe-to-toe against Hulk. He goes toe-to-toe against Sentry.
He goes toe-to-toe against Thor. He is a massively powerful character. And this entire show is all about him hiding these powers behind this actor persona that he's putting on. He doesn't want to show anybody that has these powers, so we never get to see them as the audience, how powerful he really is.
This is just one unbridled release which blows up an entire soundstage, but that's not the limit of his powers. It's just an explosion of his powers. We're not seeing how powerful he is or isn't. We're just seeing one moment where he hasn't been able to hold it back.
I love that. that's two of the most powerful characters. We have Sentry from the Thunderbolts and we have Simon here, potentially, and neither of them want to use their powers. Both of them are like the two supermen of the MCU at the moment.
You're like, no, no. They choose not to. Yes, exactly. Any notes about the episode that we haven't talked about, guys?
The only note for me is I really like Simon's dad when he turns to Simon and says you know sometimes different can also be great in the movie theatre again laying out I guess you know the episode in a little nutshell there and also just you know because you see Simon's dad seeing Simon freak out over the bullies in the school he knows there's been an incident and so he says you know Grant you've got a cough you need the day off and off they go to see Wonder Man. So, yeah. Yes. And it kind of explains why Simon's so obsessed with movies.
It's a little place of solitude given to him by his father when he was a kid after a big moment. And again, that's the... The reference that we saw in the last episode when the actors were all working together and Simon punched through the face of the other actor in a little dream when he was taunting him about, everybody knows your powers, everybody knows you're weird, everybody knows how unusual you are. So that was the thing that drove Simon over the edge.
So all this stuff is all peppered throughout the episode as well. Yeah, really good. That was the one I was going to talk about as well. And now, Chris, from your side?
Nothing else from my side. Just really want to kind of get into the finale. Only one more episode to go. So with that, Chris, do you defend Wonder Man Episode 7, Cathy Friedman?
I 100% do. Much like there's a sliver of truth to Joseph Gordon-Levitt being a pigeon killer. No, I really enjoyed this. the film just didn't the show really just didn't kind of continue down the paths I thought it would take throughout and this is kind of the ultimate kind of show of that where we did get some truth being revealed but it's not the one everyone assumed it would be especially when we had the Doorman episode and things like that and getting to see how Simon is essentially you assume Simon is going to if anything sabotage himself and throughout the beginning of the filming of the Wonder Man project and he's saved by Trevor on multiple occasions so just to see how this ends and kind of where it goes from in the final 40 35, 40 minutes is really interesting for me so yeah I completely defend this episode Derek what about yourself do you defend this episode of Wonder Man?
Yeah, absolutely. Same reasons you're given as well, Chris. It's something really different. I was expecting that this would be the episode of the movie film and we get loads of behind-the-scenes stuff, but the fact that it took that detour and went to talk about an investigative journalist is on set, the scariest thing for an actor who's trying to hide a part of themselves.
And it reveals the biggest secret between Trevor and Simon. The biggest secret is Trevor's been a spy the whole time trying to take you down and reveal your powers to the world um well actually that what simon thinks is happening um and that what leads him to to blow up the sound stage and reveal reveal his powers So yeah I really love this I loved that it different I love that there are some in And, yeah, I loved what happens and how this dent in their relationship is revealed. Really good. Really, really good.
John, how about yourself? Do you defend this penultimate episode of Wonder Man? Yeah, absolutely. I love this episode.
Give it five bacon squeals out of five. Yeah, absolutely. You know, to not to my episode, it's Kathy Friedman, investigative journalist for the entertainment section of The New York Times. And she explodes, explodes the whole thing open on the two of them.
and I love the fact that actually the person most worried about it all ends off getting this real good and honest treatment of him by Kathy Friedman and she still does an honest treatment of Trevor but it just happens to be the honesty that he hasn't expressed to Simon and it's in front of Simon And so it blows it all out of the water for the two of them. So, yeah, this was big. And I think, you know, for a story about, in a sense, about friendship, this is, you know, the big moment. But it also does include a big use of Simon's powers, which was great as well.
So, yeah, five Bacon Squeals out of five. Fantastic. Fantastic. I guess Bacon Squeals is a bit like pork scratchings I guess so Northern pub Well speaking of the pub let's go down to our local pub for the seventh question in our Wonder Man pub quiz John Indeed, fellow quizzers and fellow defenders get yourself a packet of pork scratchings maybe even some scampi fries and pull yourself a nice mild warm beer a pint of it no doubt why warm or a lager or a June fizz whatever I'm riffing on the old man's pub maybe a bottle of Guinness as well not from the fridge bottle of Guinness from the shelf who knows because it is time for the pub quiz we are on to question seven for this series of questions So here we go What shake and side order from crafties does Simon place with his PA Terrell on the golf buggy?
And I'm glad we went to that quickly to the pub to ask the question because I almost gave away the answer to that accidentally when you were talking about the thing you were talking about beforehand. Do you want to give the question one more time, John? Sure. what shake and side order from Crafties does Simon plays with his PA Terrell on the golf buggy?
Fantastic. That is the penultimate question in our Wonder Man pub quiz. When we get to the end of the season, email us with all the correct answers to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com and you will get your hands on a potentially Wonder Man connected goodie. Excellent stuff.
Yes, good luck fellow quizzes and defenders. They genuinely have been absolutely terrible at merch for Wonder Man, so I'm really concerned. So it may be comics, it may be lectures, it may be something connected to Wonder Man, but they've been terrible about releasing anything connected to the show, unfortunately, so far. It's basically, I'm going to get a pair of sunnies and a t-shirt and put a big W on it.
Well, the sad part is they did produce the loads of stuff for, as we said before, for promotional material but didn't put any of it on sale and the people who got it, the 20 or so people who got it have kept it or used it for their own giveaways, so we can't get our hands on any of it unfortunately. Crazy. Never mind. What a shame.
I'd love to be giving someone a pair of Wonder Man sunglasses or something cool. Yeah, thanks, Nick. You can't enter this. You give the questions, John.
You can't answer the book. I'll enter anonymously. Fraulein Joanna. that's not very anonymous now.
Now I know exactly who's been sending in those answers. Oh, no. But while I take John out of the PubQuiz questions and answers, let's move on to some feedback from our wonderful fellow defenders. We got a voicemail in from Steve Brown from the Panels to Pixels podcast, our friend from over there, who sent in a voicemail to us about his thoughts on the first four episodes.
Hello, TV Podcast Industries. This is Steve. I just wanted to send a quick note about Wonder Man. I watched through the first six episodes and on my own podcast we podcasted on episodes one through four So I do want to say I really appreciate I finally got to catch up on y podcast for it You doing a great job covering it and wonderful as always You changed my mind.
I was not on board. I didn't like episodes three and four too much, but you changed my mind. I'm going to watch them again and then watch five and six again so that I can say something more. But I, again, you changed my mind on those episodes.
I wasn't a really big fan of them just because I didn't feel like they really propelled the story all that much but uh yeah you're it was good i'm really enjoying the series now and especially episodes five and six i can't wait to hear you guys i can't wait to talk about it on my own podcast and hear you all talk about those episodes in the future all right talk to you later fantastic steve great to hear from you i love hearing a voicemail in uh from steve it's been a while since we got one in um yeah steve covering it over in his podcast over on panels to pixels as well um haven't heard your three and four episode i don't know whether they're out yet in the feed but um interesting that we've changed your mind on those two episodes that seems to be the one that's causing most trouble for people as uh as the doorman episode episode four i saw um reviews over an empire where some of the people over there that didn't even like the series thought episode four was the best episode and was the one that was being recommended to everybody should go check it out and then we know our own listeners are who are going yeah didn't really like a full flashback episode I wanted to just get back to yeah and Sir Ben you know so it's interesting isn't it? Yeah no it is I mean it's really great that you know we managed to change your mind there Steve but it does require an open mind and the willingness to change of course but I mean I would agree I think the Doorman episode is a tough one I think it is but I still enjoyed it that's the thing I still enjoyed it I think in the scheme of things it's probably my lowest races really i think so if i if i remember back two weeks um you don't expect it to necessarily be for the full episode i would say i mean i so i i can definitely understand that yeah and but i think it it nicely sort of slots into this notion of this series of wonderland because i just think it is a really concise and tight story and in the sense that the the big propels forward are small because it's not it's just condensed really well and it's really tight and you could even argue that something that maybe was a little left turn for a bit, you know, to add that in. You know, some people may say they didn't need it. But I just think overall, the story is really, really tight.
So it does feel a little extravagant, but I think it works really well. And to explain Simon's absolute hang up, on his powers. Absolutely. How terrifying he is.
That's it. It's going to be the end of his career if anybody finds out about his powers. I love that just discussion can change minds. I think that's the fun part about this.
I enjoy that we can have this conversation and this happened to us, happened to me multiple times where I've come in after watching one of the episodes going pretty low at the beginning as we start recording and by the end I'm like, oh actually that makes more sense and now I've seen this and understand this more and I'll end with bring back Josh where is he? We must free him, we must free Josh I'm just hoping that there's like, in some film in the future, basically there's just something someone falls through a black portal and then suddenly you just have a flash of Josh Gad in the background going, ah! absolutely great wouldn't it at the moment i think he's inside doormat um which is this is kind of the problem um but we we mentioned chris on on the episode uh we mentioned that josh gad put up on his social media just after the episodes came out that josh gad will return in avengers doomsday of course which is the the running joke at the moment and but he actually has said that he made an agreement with kevin feige that he would only take the role if it didn't preclude him from playing a role in the marvel cinematic universe in the future so there may be a point where we have actor Josh Gad meeting character played by Josh Gad in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So, like that.
Hopefully. Great to hear from you, Steve. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts over on Panels to Pixels when the episodes get released and your reviews get released. Absolutely.
Thanks, Steve. We also have some feedback over on Discord for episode 6. Dr. Bob Phillips says, well, it may come as a shock to some, but that Ben Kingsley chap is a bloody good actor you should have been in more stuff you are not your condition it absolutely superb to see this being shone a light on you are you the sum of your experiences and you continue to be by accreting perhaps including your condition but not defined by it Yaha Abdul-Mateen played such a beautiful balance line in this, following the fury of the farce.
The stillness of his audition hit even harder. Cracking job, everyone. Great stuff, Bob. absolutely all with you on those sentiments for sure it's such a great moment I meant to say this earlier John, you said to me off air about Trevor Slattery being a true sidekick something that we don't see in the Marvel Universe really and what we've now seen in these last two episodes six and seven of Ben Kingsley as Trevor Slattery when he's standing side by side with Wonder Man.
He's the only person that's able to get him to calm down, get him to focus, get him back into the zone to be able to use his power. And his power in this show is acting, right? So Trevor Slattery is playing the true sidekick. He's playing the Robin to Simon Williams' Batman, right?
He's the one that's able to be there side by side and the only person that he trusts. I think that's indicated in episode six when he calms Simon down enough to be able to get the role as Wonder Man, and here in Episode 7 where he's able to calm him down enough to go and sit down with Cathy Friedman and actually be able to have a conversation with her. So interesting that Trevor Slattery is the sidekick in a very different way, right? Absolutely.
And I think it's the sidekick without powers, and I think as well it's that comedy sidekick that's played for in a sense that deadpan series and has the laughs coming off it and bouncing off it so yeah it's really good I think it's really different yeah completely agree thanks Dr. Bob we also got some discord feedback from Donald Dennis who had this to say Travis just a gift that keeps on giving I love how they use him in the movies and this is just great evolution of his character. Yeah, no, I agree. Like, again, I re-watched Shang-Chi recently, kind of just actually midway through this just to kind of get a sense of the character again and he was fantastic in that because they just they took what was not a shallow character but a smaller character from Iron Man 3 and then just continuously evolved him and evolved him and now we do have this very well-rounded character which is great and it can be used in many ways going forward.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think totally with Donald here that Trevor Slashley is the gift that keeps on giving here. It's a real, it's one of those moments where, you know, a character that you didn't expect to see again, you know, in some quarters, Garner's, you know, maybe not the right response because it was like, oh, so the Mandarin's just a joke now. You know, that kind of thing.
He gets the one spot. He gets into Shang-Chi. I mean clearly Destin Daniel Cresson sees something in the character and I do think there's weirdly it's that humanity even though he does the Mandarin you listen to how he tries to pull Simon from the ledge you know in that sense the way he talks about Simon's life but also about his own life that immediate empathy to build relationships with people that you don't get it from any other superhero in that sense, or supervillain, where it's, you know, like with Jaden and with Esteban in, like, the classic episode from this series for me. So this is totally with Donald there.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He's so good. It's Sebastian Kingsley, you know. He obviously wants to bring more to the character.
You know, as we said before, this was originally developed as a show for Trevor Slattery, and then it was expanded into this idea of having sam williams and trevor slattery and it's worked it's worked really well absolutely loved it uh great stuff thanks donald um finally over on facebook we have some feedback from mathematician who says simon has been upgraded to a lead role trailer to stay in like getting the best caravan in real and he's getting the golf cart lift to the wardrobe department that he wanted from an earlier episode things are on the up it's a bit snug in the undercarriage and i might want to have babies one day and the sodium goes straight to my lymph nodes are both hilarious moments trevor kills me with every line i take him in every single mcu project he so dedicated to his craft that it all that matters at times until he finally comes clean and admits to Simon that he been spying on him Simon feeling betrayed How is Trevor going to fix this That's a good little cliffhanger. Yeah, I know it is. It feels like there's no way out because Simon has exploded on the set, right? And you see Trevor struggling with what's happened, what he's done and he wants to fix it.
But he can't quite figure it out. And it feels even just that turn from Kathy Freeman that, you know, the reporter is still on set when the explosion happens. Will she just run back and find Simon in there? And then that's her article, right?
That's the front page of The New York Times. And the explosion happens on set. Simon Williams is a superhero, you know. Yeah, let's find out in the next episode, I guess.
Absolutely. Thanks, mathematician. And we got some additional feedback in on episode seven. John, do you want to take it away?
We have some feedback from Coffee and Vodka on episode seven. Coffee and Vodka says, greetings fellow found out defenders. The Curb Your Enthusiasm vibes were strong with this one, turning uncomfortable up to 11. It, like many of the other episodes, went creatively above and beyond.
Recency bias aside, this really is one of the best Marvel streaming series they've put out since the early Daredevil Jessica Jones runs. cannot wait to see how or if they turn the lemons of betrayal and powers discovered into lemonade. Off to the finale. Five insincere slushies, uncontrolled damages, and surprisingly supportive siblings out of five.
Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Great stuff, coffee and vodka. No, I'm firmly with you that this is a really, really good series.
And one of the best up there. I'd say with the Marvel Netflix stuff for sure. But equally, I think with WandaVision. And I think certainly for me, Moon Knight as well.
Absolutely. Secret Invasion. Maybe less so. Maybe better.
But I'm always there for Nicholas Fury. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, I was only joking about Secret Invasion.
I am aware that we're the only ones that liked Secret Invasion. But this is definitely up there. One of the best shows they've done. Really, really enjoyed it.
I'm glad you're enjoying it as well. Looking forward to seeing the finale and seeing what you think about the finale. But a nice call out there from Coffee Vodka about Curb Your Enthusiasm, just that awkward and uncomfortable situations that Simon gets inside. into this in this episode particularly where he's kind of tracking down everybody that's the uh the interviewer is talking to and trying to get the information out of them what they said and it turns out oh actually everybody's been really nice it's not me that needs to be worried about it love it uh really really good uh thanks so much for that coffee vodka of course yeah thanks coffee and we also got dr bob's feedback in on episode seven as well he says beautiful the betrayals mr slattery as heartbroken as simon just less dangerous or amazing again and i'm guessing the digs at stardom and shakes and bacon all have unspoken references to real actors trevor's trotting off of the early life anecdotes familiar to anyone who's seen the same performer in fancon interviews across a range of ages and stages landed with just the sense of a scene replayed thinly a counterpoint to the rich human warmth of simon's family tales completely wrapped up in the story of these two and don't want this to be the penultimate episode how can the writers turn around the wrenching betrayal and complete that arc of redemption in just 30 more minutes well i guess we'll see and the finale let's see what you think of the finale yeah we're not we're not going to talk about it here um we have got our podcast coming out uh later on the week uh talking about our thoughts on the finale but um yeah that's a really interesting point there dr bob i don't know whether you've seen many of the promotional videos that they did for the show um the actual ones where simon williams is in character talking to the camera about his portrayal of wonder man in the movie and he telling the same one story over and over again when i was a kid my dad took me to the cinema to see this movie i wanted the part of the movie um because it has a tie to my childhood and then he said the same thing again to a different interviewer over and over again the same story and he's saying it as if it's the only story of his childhood that he has and that's what you're seeing here in these scenes in episode seven so they were basically making direct reference to the show and the promotional stuff instead of actually showing clips from the episodes, which I just thought was quite interesting.
And we also saw Trevor Slattery walking out of an interview with somebody who was trying to ask him about his role as the Mandarin in those promotional elements. But in that case, it wasn't Cathy Freeman that was doing the interview. So they have actually done some interesting bits with the promotion, and we just didn't know how they were connected into the series. So that's quite cool.
Absolutely. And couldn't agree with you more, Bob, that in the words of Belloc, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah.
Yes. very good John another Indiana Jones reference for the series there just because you don't know who Beloc is why not Beloc yes absolutely that's it for our extra pieces of feedback for episode 7 we'll close out the episode there don't forget if you want to get your thoughts in you can head on over to our discord you can head on over to our facebook group facebook.com slash group slash tv podcast industries or you can email us at feedback at tv podcast industries dot com excellent stuff yes uh fellow defenders uh thank you so much for joining us for Episode 7 of Wonder Man. We will be back for the season finale, Yucca Valley. Yes, the season finale will be out next Friday.
Looking forward to chatting all about how this all ends. Absolutely. It's going to be interesting. Thanks so much for joining us.
We'll talk to you next time. Yes, until that time. Speak to you soon. Yes, thank you so much, fellow defenders.
Until episode eight. Keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep defending. Bye, me lovelies. Bye.
Bye. Quite on set? It crack Quite on set Still concerned as they sit down for their joint interview with Cathy Friedman the next day, Simon is surprised to learn that Eric only had good things to say and he's really proud of him. It wasn't Simon who should have been concerned as Cathy Grillman.
Cathy Fried George Foreman. It's a grill. Kathy fries and grills, Trevor. Hang on.
Oh dear. Quite on set. They kind of make light of the whole thing in terms of the Gordon Joseph Leavitt kind of jokes about it. His name is the other way around.
Sorry. Joseph Gordon Leavitt. Quite on set. We also got some feedback through on episode six from a Discord from Dr.
Bob, who says, Well, it may come as a shock to some, but that Ken Bings... Ken Bingsley? Is he in Coronation Street? Oh, I'm Ken Bingsley.
Oh, he might be in Neighbours, actually, according to Chris. Oh, blimey. It's ham and pizza, pineapple. It is.
It's pineapple. Quite on set. Thank you.