PODCAST · health
Just Say No To The DSO
by The Pod Mill
Dentistry is experiencing an attack by well-funded corporations who want to own the work of each dentist’s hands. While the promises of wealth and ease DSO’s present to owner-dentists appear enticing, experience shows the reality is very different. Just Say No to the DSO is a deep dive podcast for dentists in all stages of their career. It is especially for those who are looking at whether or not the option to sell to a DSO is the right choice. Our expert hosts, Bob Spiel, MBA and Nate Williams, CPA, CFP take listeners on a step by step journey through Season One laying out the realities of selling a practice to a DSO and why this isn't as good as it sounds, or the only option for successful dentists to have a thriving practice. Come and listen for the years of experience inside dentistry, as well as medicine, that have led to their logical arguments and stay for additional audience and listener feedback. Questions you’d like addressed live in future episodes can be sent to: <a
Episodes
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Debriefing Dr. Whitney Weiner: Hype, Arbitrage, and the Icon Pitch
In this episode of Just Say No to the DSO, hosts Bob and Nate debrief their recent conversation with Dr. Whitney Weiner, an influential periodontist and Chief Growth Officer at Icon. They examine her role as a polished DSO/DPO “influencer,” question the financial struggles that led her to sell…
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Billy Madison Energy: Dissecting Chip’s Walmart-and-Recession Pitch
Nate and Bob open this episode of Just Say No to the DSO by dissecting a recent email from broker Chip Fitchner that treats Walmart’s quarterly numbers and the next recession as proof every dentist should sell to an IDSO immediately. With a mix of straight analysis and pointed humor, they walk...
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The Fox in the Henhouse: Chip Fichtner, Fear, and Greed
Bob Speil and Nate Williams open with the starfish principle—one doctor who doesn’t sell is worth the whole podcast—then analogize DSO dealmaking to Big Tobacco: a fortune in getting people hooked, almost nothing in talking them out of it. They take a highlighter to Chip Fichtner’s LPS 2025...
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Two Sides of the Issue with Dr. Whitney Weiner
In this episode, Dr. Whitney Weiner shares her journey from private practice to joining ICON Dental Partners, discussing the motivations, challenges, and industry insights related to group dentistry and private equity involvement. We explore the nuances of practice ownership, valuation, and the...
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Clawing His Way Back Out with Dr. Brad Langley
This is a special Just Say No episode with a dentist who entered into a DSO and realized it was the wrong way forward for himself as his patients. Dr. Brad Langley recounts his tale of not only saying yes to a DSO but finally breaking free and finding new freedom after getting out. Here is a…
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Sticking To Your Principles with Dr. Stephanie Klasner
In this episode, Dr. Stephanie Klasner shares her journey through the dental industry, her experiences with DSO models, and her insights on ethical practice and ownership. Discover how she navigated challenges and found success by prioritizing relationships and integrity.
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Tumbling Down In a Pile of Lawsuits with Dr Mike Davis
In this episode, Dr. Michael Davis discusses the pitfalls of DSO affiliations, legal settlements, and the importance of ethical practice in dentistry. He highlights recent cases like Aspen Dental's legal issues and offers advice for dentists considering partnerships.
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Did We Mention a House of Cards? with Dr Mike Davis
This episode features Dr. Mike Davis discussing the complex financial restructuring of major DSOs like Dental Care Alliance and Affordable Care, revealing the risks for dentists and the industry. We explore the implications of private equity ownership, debt-for-equity swaps, and the future of...
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A Listener Case Study on Selling Your Practice
As a dental professional, you may wonder about the implications of selling your practice to a DSO versus a private buyer. In this episode it's case study time as we delve into crucial insights on this topic, including tax considerations, the time value of money, and what it means for your practice.
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It All Starts Right Here with Dr. Brendan Gallagher
We've looked at serveral dentists deep into their careers and gone over how a DSO doesn't really make sense...what about the doctor with all of the promise in the world on the very front of his career...does a DSO make sense there? In this episode, Brendan Gallagher, an oral surgeon and…
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Now, The DSO Will Make Your Equity...Disappear
This episode exposes the realities behind DSO equity and why selling to a DSO often results in less financial benefit than expected. There is a magic trick all DSOs are trying to pull...the magically disappearing equity. Nate and Bob dissect the myths, true principles, and risks associated with…
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Sometimes It Pays To Listen To Your Better Half with Dr Mike Crockett Part 2
Starting a dental practice can be daunting, but with the right insights and support, it can also be incredibly rewarding. Mike and Christy Crockett, who have navigated the complex world of dentistry together, share their journey—from Mike’s schooling to their eventual ownership of a successful...
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Sometimes It Pays To Listen To Your Better Half with Dr Mike Crockett Part 1
Starting a dental practice can be daunting, but with the right insights and support, it can also be incredibly rewarding. Mike and Christy Crockett, who have navigated the complex world of dentistry together, share their journey—from Mike’s schooling to their eventual ownership of a successful...
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Unmasking the DSO Deal: What Every Dentist Must Know
This episode exposes the hidden truths behind DSO deals in dentistry, revealing how dentists are often financially fleeced through complex deal structures. Bob and Nate bring you their expert analysis to break down the mechanics of these deals, showing why saying no to DSOs is crucial for…
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A Smooth Voice From the South With Dr Travis Nixon
In this in-depth interview, a blue blooded Tar Heel, Dr. Travis Nixon shares his insights on the rise of DSOs, legislative challenges, and how dentists can protect their profession through education and advocacy. Not only does Dr Nixon have great insight into the current dentistry pipeline of...
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Who Works For Who? 6 DSO Tricks Most Dentists Don't See
This episode explores the six fundamental principles that reveal why DSO deals are detrimental to dental practitioners. Hosts Bob and Nate dissect the realities of private equity models, emphasizing the importance of maintaining control, understanding the true value of your practice, and making...
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Sage Wisdom is Hard to Come By These Days with Dr. Michael W. Davis
summary In this episode, Dr. Michael W. Davis shares critical insights into the private equity influence on dentistry, the risks of DSOs, and how dentists can protect their practices and patients. A must-listen for dental professionals concerned about industry integrity and patient care.
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Away Game with the Orthodontic Pearls Podcast and Nate Williams
Nate sits down with the Orthodontic Pearls podcast in order to give his take on owning your own practice and why to stay away from selling out to PE and DSO groups. It's a full panel lineup with Drs. Chris Teeters, Andy Sarpotdar, and Brian Anderson.
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The Emperor Has No Clothes
This episode features a candid discussion on the realities of DSOs in dentistry, highlighting industry failures, ethical concerns, and the importance of dentists making informed decisions about their practices. Hosts Bob Nate share insights, stories, and call for transparency and honesty among...
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Right Up to the Edge and Back with Dr. Joe Feller
In this conversation, Nate and Dr. Joe Feller discuss the complexities and challenges faced by orthodontists when considering selling their practices to DSOs. Dr. Feller shares his personal journey in orthodontics, his experiences with DSOs, and the reasons he ultimately decided against selling…
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When Your Reputation Precedes You with Jonathan Martin
In a conversation between two of the most soothing voices on the internet, Bob Spiel interviews Jonathan Martin, a CPA with extensive experience in dental transitions. They discuss the complexities of selling dental practices, the myths surrounding DSOs, and the importance of financial planning…
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A Conversation With The Dental Banker Bob Affleck
In this conversation, Bob Affleck shares his extensive experience in the dental industry, discussing the implications of selling dental practices to DSOs. He highlights the challenges and regrets many dentists face after selling, particularly regarding autonomy and financial expectations. The...
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Right Up to the Edge and Back with Dr. Blake Maxfield
Nate sits down with Dr. Blake Maxfield on this amazing interview with a practicing doctor who went through the entire courting and recruitment process where he almost signed the dotted line for a DSO to purchase his practice. At the last minute, something didn't feel right and he backed out....
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The Great Disappearing Trick: DSO Equity
In this episode, hosts Bob and Nate delve into the myths surrounding DSOs, particularly focusing on the allure of DSO equity. They discuss the reality of ownership structures, the dilution of shares, and the potential pitfalls of believing in inflated equity promises. The conversation emphasizes...
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When Are You The Partner...Or The One Being Taken Advantage Of With Dr. Maksim Montatskiy
In this conversation, Dr. Maksim Montatskiy sits down with Bob and Nate to discuss the complexities of partnerships, particularly focusing on the value and decision-making dynamics involved. He expresses concerns about the nature of partnerships where he feels more like a paying associate than an...
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Too Big to Sell: Myth vs Reality
The conversation explores the myth surrounding the belief that dental practices are too large to sell to private buyers. It delves into the origins of this misconception and its impact on the dental community, emphasizing that size should not deter practice owners from considering private buyers.
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Practice Transition Advice with Dan and Aaron Lewis
In this conversation, Nate speaks with Dan and Aaron Lewis about the complexities of dental practice transitions, particularly focusing on the implications of selling to Dental Service Organizations (DSOs). They discuss the emotional aspects of practice transitions, the financial realities of...
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A Very Important Math Lesson
Bob and Nate are back to discuss the common misconception that DSOs pay more for dental practices than private buyers and they are bringing receipts. They delve into the concept of EBITDA, explaining its significance in practice valuation and how it impacts the financial outcomes for practice...
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Season 4 Episode 6 - Listener Question: Practice Transition Walkthrough
In this episode of 'Just Say No to the DSO', hosts Bob and Nate discuss the complexities of transitioning dental practices, particularly for those with multiple locations. They address listener questions about ownership options, financing, and the importance of goodwill in practice valuation. The...
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Season 4 Episode 5 - The Art of Transitioning Your Dental Practice
Bob and Nate discuss the complexities of transitioning a dental practice without selling to a DSO. They explore the concept of a walk away sale, addressing common uncertainties and fears among practice owners. The conversation also debunks prevalent myths about the dental market, particularly...
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Season 4 Episode 4 - Embracing Uncertainty: The Reality of Dental Practice Transitions
In this conversation, Bob and Nate discuss the complexities of transitioning a dental practice, particularly focusing on the implications of selling to a DSO versus bringing on an associate. They explore the emotional and financial uncertainties that dentists face when considering their exit...
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Special Episode - You Are The Brand with Steven J Anderson
In this conversation, Bob Spiel and Steven J Anderson delve into the evolving landscape of dentistry, particularly focusing on the impact of Dental Service Organizations (DSOs) on the profession. They discuss the importance of grounding oneself in key principles before making decisions, the...
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Season 4 Episode 3 - The Risks of Selling Your Practice
In this episode, Bob and Nate discuss the evolving landscape of dental service organizations (DSOs) and the implications for private practice owners. They explore the risks associated with selling to DSOs, the changing nature of DSO offers, and the importance of retaining control over one's...
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Season 4 Episode 2 - The DSO Dilemma: A Cautionary Tale
Bob and Nate continue discussing the implications of selling dental practices to Dental Service Organizations (DSOs). They argue that selling to a DSO can lead to financial loss and loss of control for dentists. The conversation highlights the hype surrounding DSOs, the influence of celebrity...
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Season 4 Episode 1 - Navigating the Dental Landscape: Ownership vs. DSO
In this episode of 'Just Say No to the DSO', hosts Bob Spiel and Nate Williams discuss the implications of the DSO movement in dentistry. They emphasize the importance of private practice ownership, the challenges faced by dental practice owners, and the impact of insurance and government...
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Season 3 Episode 16 - Away Interview With Gary Bird
Nate ventures out into the wilderness and is guest with Gary Bird for today's episode. This is a collabortive project and highlights the great being done to further the conversation around dentistry and it's future. For those not familiar, Gary Bird is the founding owner of SMC National, the…
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Season 3 Episode 15 - Dr Lou Berman Interview
In this inspiring conversation, Bob and Dr. Lou Berman delve into the complexities of the DSO landscape, particularly within the field of endodontics. They discuss the financial implications of joining a DSO, the role of key opinion leaders in shaping the industry, and the impact of corporate...
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Season 3 Episode 14 - Dr Mila and Daniel Cohen Interview
In this conversation, Bob hosts Daniel and Mila Cohen, who share their journey of building a successful independent dental practice. They discuss the challenges and rewards of partnership, the importance of defining roles, and the strategies they implemented to ensure effective management and...
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Season 3 Episode 13 - Dr Jill Tanzi and Dr Kristine Grazioso Interview
We are in for a double treat today as Bob interviews two incredible dentists, Dr Jill Tanzi and Dr Kristine Grazioso. Not only are we staying on the east coast for this episode, both of these amazing practitioners are passionate about dentistry and helping the patient get the best care. They are...
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Season 3 Episode 12 - Dr Eric Block Interview
Bob is back and rolling with another great guest. We are headed to the east coast, just outside of Boston with Dr Eric Block. Dr. Block is a member of the American Dental Association, the Massachusetts Dental Society, and the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry and is a Fellow of the...
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Season 3 Episode 11 - Dr. Robert M McNamara Interview
The hits continue at Just Say No, Bob interviews esteemed MD Dr. Robert McNamara who is a professor and Chair of Emergency Medicine at the Lewis Katz School of Medicine at Temple University to go over the eerie similarities between the corporate involvement in emergency medicine and dental...
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Season 3 Episode 10 - Jason Wood is Back Part 2
Super star guest Jason Wood hops back in the ring with Nate in order to clean up some lingering questions and try to address some long standing fallicies from a previous, high profile interview. He brings the info with receipts every time he visit's the DSO show.
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Season 3 Episode 10 - Jason Wood is Back Part 1
Super star guest Jason Wood hops back in the ring with Nate in order to clean up some lingering questions and try to address some long standing fallicies from a previous, high profile interview. He brings the info with receipts every time he visit's the DSO show.
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Season 3 Episode 9 - Dr Aaron Swapp from Swapp Orthodontics Part 2
Here is part 2 of our great interview with Dr. Aaron Swapp. The conversation gets very dialed in between Nate and Dr Swapp.
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Season 3 Episode 8 - Dr Aaron Swapp from Swapp Orthodontics Part 1
Nate is back traveling around the country in order to get the best interviews with the best professionals. We were put in touch with Dr Aaron Swap in order to have a great discussion on if...with a big if...DSOs are ever worth it? As well, how do things apply to orthodontics and what is really...
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Season 3 Episode 7 - Scott Haley From Premier Orthodontics Practices Interview
Full steam ahead with no going back! The show is picking up incredible momentum thanks to our great listeners. Nate grabs another incredible guest this week in Scott Haley from Premier Orthodontics Practices. Scott has heard about the great work being done on Just Say No and wanted to hear it...
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Season 3 Episode 6 - John Van Leeuwen Interview
How do professionals begin and interact with the dental industry? So many great people from various backgrounds are attracted to this amazing field and we have one of the best today. John Van Leeuwen joins the crew remotely today for an awesome interview.
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Season 3 Episode 5 - Jason Wood Interview Part 2
Here the amazing conclusion to the conversation between attorney Jason Wood and Nate as they disect where deals seem to stop making sense.
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Season 3 Episode 4 - Jason Wood Interview Part 1
Just Say No to the DSO is coming off of some hot interviews and following up with experts all over the country to go over the details and discerne between fact and fiction. Nate sits down with attorney Jason Wood in order to dive deep into DSO deals. Here the amazing back and forth and find out...
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Season 3 Episode 3 - DSO Deal Case Study
After the Chip interview, Bob and Nate breakdown an actual DSO deal offer in order to get a better idea and understanding at what the tangible numbers look like. We wish we were making this stuff up…but we aren’t.
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ABOUT THIS SHOW
Dentistry is experiencing an attack by well-funded corporations who want to own the work of each dentist’s hands. While the promises of wealth and ease DSO’s present to owner-dentists appear enticing, experience shows the reality is very different. Just Say No to the DSO is a deep dive podcast for dentists in all stages of their career. It is especially for those who are looking at whether or not the option to sell to a DSO is the right choice. Our expert hosts, Bob Spiel, MBA and Nate Williams, CPA, CFP take listeners on a step by step journey through Season One laying out the realities of selling a practice to a DSO and why this isn't as good as it sounds, or the only option for successful dentists to have a thriving practice. Come and listen for the years of experience inside dentistry, as well as medicine, that have led to their logical arguments and stay for additional audience and listener feedback. Questions you’d like addressed live in future episodes can be sent to: <a
HOSTED BY
The Pod Mill
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Frequently Asked Questions
How many episodes does Just Say No To The DSO have?
Just Say No To The DSO currently has 69 episodes available on PodParley. New episodes are automatically indexed when they're published to the podcast feed.
What is Just Say No To The DSO about?
Dentistry is experiencing an attack by well-funded corporations who want to own the work of each dentist’s hands. While the promises of wealth and ease DSO’s present to owner-dentists appear enticing, experience shows the reality is very different. Just Say No to the DSO is a deep dive podcast for...
How often does Just Say No To The DSO release new episodes?
Just Say No To The DSO has 69 episodes. Check the episode list to see recent publication dates and frequency.
Where can I listen to Just Say No To The DSO?
You can listen to Just Say No To The DSO on PodParley by clicking any episode. We provide an embedded audio player for direct listening, and you can also subscribe via your preferred podcast app using the RSS feed.
Who hosts Just Say No To The DSO?
Just Say No To The DSO is created and hosted by The Pod Mill.
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