Living Dharma —a conversation within our shared habitat

In this episode of Living Dharma, Shoukei Matsumoto sits down with Toryo Ito, a Rinzai Zen monk and vice-abbot of Ryosokuin, a temple in the Gion district of Kyoto with six hundred years behind it. He has led more than two hundred thousand people in zazen, and has opened the temple’s rooms to contemporary artists.The conversation was recorded on a rainy morning, in a room that opens onto the garden. Toryo describes what visitors from abroad are looking for when they come to sit in Kyoto. Then he goes back to his first task after returning from the training monastery, which was to sort the scrolls, screens and ceramics kept in the temple storehouse. Everything now called heritage, he realized, had been contemporary work in its own time. That is where his phrase “Living Zen” comes from.He speaks about leading meditation as something closer to fermentation than to instruction. You prepare the space, you care for it, and then the outcome is not yours to control. In his tradition, karma faces the future rather than the past, because today’s action is a seed. And after years of sweeping the same monastery floors, he found that the wood is a slightly different temperature each morning.In Japanese, the word for Buddha, hotoke, sits close to the word for loosening, hodokeru. That is much of what this conversation is about.TORYO ITOVice-Abbot of Ryosokuin TempleBorn and raised at Ryosokuin in Kyoto’s Gion district, he was ordained under the guidance of his grandfather, the temple’s 22nd abbot. After undergoing training at the Kenninji sect’s specialized monastic dojo, he became vice-abbot in 2007, assisting his father, the temple’s 23rd abbot. He has guided over 200,000 people in Zazen both in Japan and abroad, and has introduced new approaches to temple visits at Ryosokuin—most notably through contemporary art exhibitions—bridging the temple’s 600-year history with the present day. His international engagements include leading Zen sessions at Meta (formerly Facebook) headquarters in the U.S., as well as in various parts of Europe and Asia. He is also involved in a wide range of modern initiatives: co-developing the meditation and Zen philosophy app “InTrip,” launching “XEXE,” a platform proposing contemporary interpretations of the tea ceremony, and collaborating with design hotels, fashion labels, and lifestyle brands. In 2023, he was named one of Forbes JAPAN’s “Next 100” and one of Newsweek’s “100 Japanese People the World Respects.” He is also an active writer, contributing to magazines and online media, and is the author of “Boga Shiko: Isshomono no Tou Gijutsu” (Selfless Thinking: The Art of Lifelong Inquiry, published by Nikkei BP).More from TORYO ITO:* BOOKBōga Shikō “Thinking Beyond the Self” (2023 Japan, Nikkei BP)* HPhttps://ryosokuin.com/https://toryoito.com/serviceMy guest today is TORYO ITO — A Rinzai Zen monk and practitioner of applied Buddhism, exploring how Buddhist wisdom and Japanese aesthetics can help us navigate the challenges of contemporary life.ConversationJuly 2026Shoukei:Welcome to this podcast, Toryo-san.Toryo:Hello, Shoukei-san.Shoukei:I’m very glad to be here at Ryosokuin, a very beautiful temple in Kyoto. And I think today is one of the best days. Actually, every day should be the best day. But it’s raining, and that makes the moss and the stones even deeper.Toryo:Yes, the green has become very vivid.Shoukei:Very beautiful. It’s been a while since we last met. We first met on a journey to Bhutan.Toryo:Yes, that was the first time. Maybe I had seen you in a magazine or in the news, but that was the first time we met in person.Shoukei:You are in the Zen tradition, specifically the Rinzai school. And I am in the tradition of Nembutsu, Pure Land. Your practice is sitting. My practice is more about chanting, and actually listening, listening to the voice of the Buddha. But anyway, we share the same Mahayana Buddhism here in Japan, and we are both living in Kyoto. So this is a casual conversation. My intention is, I have no intention, actually. But I hope the audience can sense something out of your life and your voice. Where do we start?Toryo:Let me introduce myself a little. In recent years we have been looking for how Zen practice can meet contemporary society. Our activities include zazen meditation, for individuals, for society, for international retreats, and also memorial services and hosting art exhibitions.Shoukei: I see. The memorial services are, I guess, almost only for Japanese, the supporting members of this temple.Toryo:Yes, exactly. Maybe ninety-nine percent Japanese. Some are Japanese living in other countries. But no international members.Shoukei:That’s an interesting part. For Japanese, temples are the places where we pray for our ancestors, or the place for funeral ceremonies. But for people from other countries, a temple is a kind of meditation center, or an art gallery. So you are living among a very different variety of visitors.Toryo:Yes. Now we have many requests from overseas for private group meditation sessions. They already have experience sitting in their own countries, and Japan seems to be a kind of legendary space for meditation, especially a trip to Kyoto, to have a special meditation session. It’s like sushi. They eat sushi in their own country, but they really want to know what itamae sushi is, the counter style. That’s different from the adapted sushi restaurant. Local, pure, genuine. So when they meditate in their country, they want to have a genuine meditation session in Kyoto, at a temple. That’s why we get so many requests. That’s my sense of it.Shoukei:I can imagine. What is your impression of their experience here?Toryo:They enjoy this environment a lot, because normally they don’t have gardens with such a long history in front of their sitting place. In a Zen center, it is probably inside a building. They sit facing each other, they don’t let so much air come in, and they don’t hear the voices of birds where they sit. But here there are very few boundaries between the inside of the building and the external space. So they feel they are blending with nature, and with an inherited space.Shoukei:What you say totally resonates with something I have been thinking about recently. When I explain Japanese Buddhism, I sometimes use this word. Japanese Buddhism is like Ambient Buddhism.Toryo:Mm, interesting.Shoukei:You must know ambient music, by Brian Eno, for example.Toryo:Kyoto had, I forget the name, a kind of ambient music festival.Shoukei:Yes. My point is this. Here, Buddhism is not something separated from other things. Buddhism is something embedded in the air, in the ambience of this land, of Japan, of Kyoto, of this habitat. Buddhism is not just about teaching, not just about practicing meditation, not just about culture. Everything is mixed and integrated. In other words, whatever you do in this ambience of Buddhism, what you receive is the idea that nothing is separated. So I can imagine how visitors appreciate this ambience of no separation.Toryo:So the temple can be a site where you first slow yourself down, and then release the tension and the many thoughts in your head. Gradually you step away from your patterns, your bias of thinking. And then you can listen to how nature speaks to you. That shifts how you perceive, how you recognize your surroundings and the relationships around you. That’s what I lead as meditation. I have almost nothing to do for them. I just open the space. I ring the bell, I prepare, and together they open up their senses. Then something happens. Not so much action, but not too passive either. It’s like fermentation.Shoukei:Just like fermentation. You cannot control it. What you can do is only taste it.Toryo:And preparation, and caring. Caring means we have to clean the space before we welcome the guests. That’s a really important part of the preparation, caring for the space. And then preparing good seats, good cushions. When you sit there, it’s necessary to have good support. Shoukei:So you prepare the space, hoping that everybody will enjoy it and receive something out of this ambience. But still, you don’t have control over the outcome of the experience.In that respect, these days I have come to revisit the importance of the notion of karma. Because, as you said, we are a product of karma. In other words, a product of past patterns, accumulated past patterns. So what I am speaking right now is inevitably bounded by the accumulated words I have gone through in my life. This is why Shakyamuni Buddha said karma is your action, and karma is also your habit. And sometimes you can extend that realm of karma beyond your own life. Some of my patterns come from my parents, my grandparents, and so on. Anyway, I am a product of accumulated patterns from my past experience. So it is important to calibrate how I perceive the world sometimes, in a different environment. Like this one.Toryo:In the Zen tradition we don’t often use the word karma. But karma is something not only focused on the past, more like focused on the future. Because the action of today is to be a seed for the future.Shoukei:Yes. So you invite people to calibrate, or to tune, their recognition of their accumulated patterns, so that they can find, or step onto, a slightly different path for the future.Toryo:Exactly. Now we are talking about our personal patterns, our ways of thinking. I think that is the second step of how they can shift toward what they want to be. The first step, in my opinion, is to make the mind calmer, to slow down, by opening up the senses. Today, for example, it’s rainy, with many varieties of the sound of rain. That can be a good stimulus to open the senses and welcome the ambience. But if it is just cloudy and not so windy, they don’t find so much difference from an ordinary day. They might focus on the heritage, the old architecture, the ancient Buddha statue. That’s not what I want. My focus is to make something that gives them a small trigger, to allow themselves to relax and open themselves. And at that point, I believe in artwork a great deal.Shoukei:As a trigger. Yes, that is what I wanted to ask you next. You provide a space for visitors to meditate, but at the same time you welcome many visitors for your art exhibitions. So you are almost an art curator in some aspects, a planner. Tell me your thoughts about bringing artworks and artists into this very traditional Zen temple in the center of Kyoto. And how do you relate art to Zen?Toryo:First, let me tell you a short history of my life. When I came back to this home temple from the training monastery, my first role was to organize the warehouse, to clean it up, and to sort the hanging scrolls, the byobu screens, the ceramics. So my main role was preserving cultural heritage. And by doing so, I realized that most of these things, which across the centuries still give us a strong impression and great value, used to be contemporary art. Because they used the high technology of their era, and they imported a lot of international materials. As ceramists, for example, they used new glazes and new techniques from Korea and China. Many things were integrated.Shoukei:I see. So from our perspective today, these look like very traditional, old things. But at that time they were very new, cutting-edge technology as well.Toryo:Exactly. So by organizing our warehouse I learned that my role is not only preserving, but also creating a new approach, new work with contemporary artists. Then I started to shift my way a little.Shoukei:I see. So in that sense, what you are doing, which sometimes looks very new, is not really new. You are in the lineage of your ancestors.Toryo:I hope so. It’s a kind of revival of the way of Zen. Zen welcomed many contemporary artists for a long, long time, through a long history. But in our age, we focus on looking back and protecting that culture. That’s important. At the same time we should, and we want to, develop and evolve a new culture as well. That is Living Zen, in my opinion.Shoukei:Living Zen. So to embody Living Zen, you should be avant-garde.Toryo:In that sense, when I welcome artists, I sometimes challenge them to push the boundary. Go further. Try a new way of drawing, of making forms.Shoukei:Don’t be conservative.Toryo:Don’t be conservative.Shoukei:And what is the response from the artists?Toryo:If I only say to them, “Don’t be conservative,” I don’t think that works. So I open the space, this room, for example, for them to use as their atelier. Temporarily, just for a couple of days. And I invite them to sit together, or to enter the tea house to have a tea ceremony. Through that cup of tea we have some casual talk, and I think that can influence their work. Because the room itself is very unique. The size of the room is pretty small for them, and just preparing a cup of tea takes twenty minutes. That is the scale of Japan. Usually their work is something really huge, but when they present their work in Japan, especially at a temple in Kyoto, they make a smaller size. That’s interesting. And sometimes, the smaller the work is, the more intensive it is.Shoukei:I see. So what you do is not just bringing artworks from other countries. You truly invite artists into this space, into this ambience of Buddhism, and you let them be immersed in it, so that they get some inspiration from it, and maybe, beyond the boundary, something arises.Toryo:Yes, that’s what I am trying to do. That’s a kind of true incubation. “Incubation” is maybe a business word, but it is like incubating their new wisdom of Zen.Shoukei:I can understand what you say, because right now I am in this space, so I can feel this ambience. So I hope that the people who listen to this voice will visit this space in person.Toryo:I hope so.Shoukei:Speaking of the future, I believe you will continue what you’re doing. But is there anything else in your mind for the future?Toryo:Yes, a lot. For example, I want to keep developing these art activities, and maybe not have them curated only by me, by a monk. I also want to involve a real curator, to refine the quality of the exhibitions, and to have artists stay at the temple. That includes renovating the temple’s architecture. Not to make it a very comfortable place to stay, but a little more functional. Because we live in this temple with our whole family, my parents, my two daughters, my wife. So I need to make a good separation, a good boundary between the family side and the temple side. Rebalancing is a good word.And maybe the biggest challenge is to find a new way of financing the temple. Before, we used to focus on the community, and prayers for the ancestors. Then gradually we started to welcome many participants in Zen, and audiences for the art events. It’s not so sustainable with just these three pillars. So I need to find a better balance. We might also need a fund to think about the architecture for the future. A grand design of the architecture is necessary, in my opinion. Otherwise something gets damaged, and we repair it, then another place is damaged, and we repair that. We just keep repairing one thing after another. That’s not a good way to protect the quality of the architecture. And when we run short of budget, we choose the wrong way, not the traditional way, but the cheaper way.Shoukei:That is why many temples and shrines, not only temples, are like patchwork buildings today. Repaired in different generations. This part thirty years ago, this part a hundred years ago, and so on.Toryo:So I think that with a good architect, we need to make a master plan for the next fifty years, and then create a fund to support that architectural master plan. And to make that fund, I need a lot of supporters. Our current activities alone are probably not enough to gather funding members. So I need to explore a new way. Maybe you are more experienced.Shoukei:Not really, I am a monk without a temple. But I understand your point. In terms of funding, I guess you need to create some sort of vision, a big purpose for the future generation. So what do you think should be the big purpose of a temple like this, for society today?Toryo:That’s a good point. Of course we need to have a clear vision. First of all, this temple should be a place where people can find a new, good balance, equality. Equality of people. In Japan there is a big gender gap now. But here, we appreciate the artworks and meditate together as if there were no border.And I want to welcome not only artists but also, I might say, expressionists. People from many backgrounds. I want to show that the chance is equal for everybody. Open for everybody, first.And then I think there is a big possibility for this place to become a kind of creation platform. As a residency. Residency doesn’t mean staying overnight for a long time. Maybe staying here for a while, as a temporary atelier or a temporary resting space, to charge their energy to create something, or to express themselves. I also think this temple is a kind of center of the city. So I want to make good partnerships with other institutions. Then we could call it a Kyoto residency, welcoming people from overseas to stay in Kyoto, including the temple experience.Shoukei:Not as a tourist, but as a citizen, so to speak.Toryo:Maybe in between.Shoukei:In between. Of course, not literally a citizen.Toryo:Exactly. A kind of temporary resident.And there is one more thing, this is more the architectural part. I want to make something really beautiful. I believe that the power of beauty opens up a fixed idea, like a fighting pose. And finally, that can contribute to world peace. I cannot do something very big, I cannot hold a big conference for world peace. But if I make something beautiful within the temple grounds, then when people meet that beauty, they release their tension, they release their fixed ideas, they reopen a possibility. That is a mission for us.Shoukei:In Japanese, Buddha is called “Hotoke”. That sound is very close to the word for loosening in Japanese, “Hotoke”, “Hodokeru”. So becoming, or moving toward, Buddha means loosening. And you think beauty is a big trigger for people to be loosened.Toryo:That aligns very much with my art activities. Through them I want to make something aesthetically good. That’s one point. But more deeply, the profound meaning of our activities is making a space that allows the participants to loosen themselves.Shoukei:And coming back to the point we talked about at the beginning, cleaning is important. What is interesting about cleaning, “SOJI” in Japanese, is that I think it is not just about cleanliness, but also about composting and emptying. So through this practice, namely “SOJI”, we clean the space. And then, when a visitor comes into this space, they somehow sense the existence of someone who cleaned it, by the absence of dirt. By the absence of something, they find the existence of someone.Toryo:Beautiful expression. In Japanese, we say “KEHAI” ——presence of absence.Shoukei:Ah, presence of absence.Toryo:And also, if you encourage the participants to clean the space together, that’s a very good practice to heighten their awareness, to cultivate their awareness. And that awareness carries over into their professional work, their daily conversation. So in my opinion, cleaning as a way to cultivate awareness is crucial for modern life, because AI can support a lot of things, but people can be aware of slight changes in the world, and of the presence of absence.Shoukei:And when you were in the monastery, you cleaned intensively every day. That’s hard work.Toryo:But I am very grateful that I was pushed to clean almost everywhere, at the temple, in the monastery. Before, repetitive work seemed very boring to me. But once I had to do it every day, every day I found small differences. Because you repeat, and repeat, and then I found that the temperature of the wooden floor is different every day. How the moisture is absorbed into the wooden pieces, slight differences tell me a lot. Ah, I should be relaxed today. Or, I should work harder today. So I really communicate with simple, ordinary materials. I love that communication.Shoukei:The rain is letting up now, and you are about to welcome visitors to this temple this morning. So let me stop here. Thank you so much for joining this podcast, Toryo-san.Toryo:Thank you for having me, Shoukei-san.Shoukei:See you soon. Arigato-gozaimashita.— sound cooperation —* Openingshō (Japanese mouth organ)｜Junpei Otsukaorin (Japanese singing bowl)｜Syouryu* Endingpiano｜Nozomu Takahashi Get full access to Living Dharma: A People’s Buddhism for everyday life. at www.living-dharma.com/subscribe

Kodo NishimuraKodo Nishimura is a Japanese Buddhist monk, artist, and LGBTQ+ advocate who inspires people to embrace their authentic selves. Through his work as a speaker, author, and activist, he connects spirituality with self-expression and compassion.Born in Tokyo in 1989, he graduated from Parsons School of Design in New York and began his career as a makeup artist, working behind the scenes at Miss Universe and New York Fashion Week.Ordained in the Jōdo-shū (Pure Land) Buddhist tradition in 2015, Nishimura gained international recognition through Queer Eye: We’re in Japan!. He has spoken at UN agencies and universities including Harvard and Yale, and his work has been featured by CNN, BBC, and Vogue. He was also selected as a TIME Next Generation Leader.His memoir, This Monk Wears Heels: Be Who You Are, has been published in nine languages.More from Kodo Nishimura: https://kodonishimura.comMy guest today is Kodo Nishimura — a Buddhist monk in the Pure Land tradition, a makeup artist, and an advocate for LGBTQ rights. He joins us from Tokyo and New York, the two cities he moves between.　ConversationMay 2026　Shoukei: Very nice to meet you.Kodo: Nice to meet you, Shoukei-san. Well, I knew about you for a little while, but it’s an honor for me to meet you in person and have a conversation. And I think there are not too many monks who are kind of forward thinking, innovative and paving their own way. So I’m very excited to listen to your ideas and share some of my ideas today. Yeah.Shoukei: Thank you so much. It’s a real honor. Thank you for having me on this podcast as the first guest in this new series. And, you know, I wanted to start something like this to introduce, you know, the multi-dimensional Buddhism in Japan today, introducing the very unique monks like you. Yeah. So, you... how can we start?Kodo: So maybe I can explain who I am.Shoukei: Oh, yes, please.Kodo: So I was born in a temple. My father is a Buddhist monk. My father was actually born on a farm, yeah, in Toyama Prefecture, but his far relative who was a monk didn’t have children, and didn’t have anybody to inherit the temple. So because my father was the second son of the farm, he was not going to inherit the farm. So when he was five, he came to Tokyo to become the next heir of the temple. So he was raised to become a Buddhist monk, and I am his son.Shoukei: Okay. All right. So when you were born, your home was not a farm, already a temple.Kodo: Right. My father grew up in the temple from when he was five, and he went to university, studied Buddhism, became a Buddhist philosophy and history and sutra professor at the university all his life. And I was born in 1989, now I’m 37 years old.Shoukei: So although he was born on a farm, he became a kind of very serious monk.Kodo: Yes. When he was younger he told me that he wanted to be an actor or screenwriter — when I see the albums I see my father dressed up as like a fisherman, or like a samurai, and I think he appeared in some movies or TV shows when he was younger as well, but I think he didn’t have a choice to choose what he wanted to do. So he told me that he didn’t want to be a Buddhist monk, and he fought with his step parents, but now I think he embraces the identity of Buddhist monk. So yeah, and me, I grew up wanting to be a princess because I always knew that I was homosexual. So I think he understands that some children of monks may not want to be Buddhist monks as well, like him.Shoukei: Yeah, yeah. So for the listeners, for those who are not that familiar with Japanese Buddhist culture, you know, monk sounds like, of course, very monastic, but actually Japanese Buddhist monks are more secular. So I sometimes explain I am a secular monk, which might sound a little bit strange, because secular and monk sounds contradictory. Right. But it’s like a small family business.Kodo: It is like a family business.Shoukei: So most of the monks are expected, in a sense, to have children who are going to inherit their temple. So it’s not monastic at all. Even, I’d say, it’s more secular than an ordinary family because the monks are even encouraged to marry. Yeah. So when you are born in a temple as a child who is supposed to inherit your temple, or your family business, so to speak — when you got conscious of your condition and environment, what did you feel?Kodo: I felt very pressured. I feel like my destiny in life was decided by other people. And shaving my head or living a very austere simple life — it was opposite from what I wanted to do. I wanted to have my hair long and, you know, flow my hair in the air like a shampoo commercial. And I felt, well, I’m not going to be what you want me to be. Life is not easy. Just because you have a son, it doesn’t mean that the son is going to be obedient. So I was very rebellious. I always questioned, why do we need Buddhism? Why do we need to pray? What’s so fun about this? And because my father is a university professor, he was able to, not by faith, but by kind of logic and historical perspective, explain this is how Buddhism came to be.Shoukei: So left brain guy.Kodo: Yeah, yes. And you know, as you said, it’s part of the business, which is an unfortunate reality of Japanese Buddhism, because yes, your life is stable and you are respected if you inherit the temple instead of going to a different company and starting from zero, because as long as you are seen as the next heir of the temple, you are respected and you don’t ever lose your job. So a lot of people kind of don’t think of going elsewhere, but just inherit the temple business because it’s easy. And I understand that. I also feel that way too. But because of that, I also have some questions — like some people pay more as offering and they get better treated, or maybe they get a longer kaimyo, which is like the name given to that soul when you pass away. So I also started to focus on some of the injustice or hypocrisy, because everybody is supposed to be equal, right? So I had all these types of thoughts when I was growing up.Shoukei: So I have so many monk friends in Japan, and I’m actually, thanks to the initiative I have been doing — the podcast program, which is basically a conversation with a guest monk and me — the number of guests so far is over 200 or so. So I kind of know how most of the many monks feel when they get conscious of their circumstance growing up. Many of them somehow get the urge of, how can I get out of this temple, my home. Yes, it’s natural for young people, but in your case, the situation might be even more complicated because — when did you get conscious or aware of your gender, and yeah.Kodo: I think I always felt like a girl. When I was maybe two or three years old, I started playing with my mom’s dresses and pearls. And I always, well, I always had stuffed animals, and I would explain to my parents, “Oh, they don’t have gender. They are not a boy or a girl.” And that was a reflection of how I felt about myself. I know that my body is male and I accepted that. I don’t have any problems with that. But I felt like the soul — just like you don’t know if a plushie is a boy or girl — I don’t know if I’m a man or woman inside. But I was sure that I was attracted to other boys. So I started to hide, because even though I was maybe 3 or 4 years old, I knew that it’s not common. And well, I was in the closet until when I was 24 years old. So I always felt like I had to hide and be careful to avoid discrimination. Yeah, in 24 —Shoukei: — you came out. So until then you went through high school life. And your parents, who are in charge of your temple, right? Did you feel any pressure from them around the course of your life?Kodo: I felt pressured. My father, when I was younger, said that once, if you are going to inherit the temple, you would need a wife because it’s a demanding job. And I was like, well, I’m not going to get married to a woman, or will I welcome children? So it’s not going to be like how you want it to be. So I felt like if I were to come out, I didn’t know how they would respond to me. I was very afraid and scared that they might disown me or get disappointed. But when I finally came out, my father said that, well, this is your life, and sexuality is not something that you choose. So live as you are. And my mom, she was always concerned because I never really had male friends. I was always with girls when I was younger. So she felt that, well, maybe I didn’t raise him correctly.Shoukei: She felt guilty or something. Yeah.Kodo: She was questioning. She was blaming herself. And I remember, like, many books about how to raise a child in the bookshop. And I was like, am I that much of a problem? Like, why do you need to read that many books to raise me? Is anything wrong with me? And then finally, when I came out, she was sure that I was homosexual. She was questioning if I’m a transgender woman or, I don’t know — she didn’t quite understand what’s happening with me. But they are very supportive and they are very anti-discrimination and anti-prejudice. So I feel very lucky.Shoukei: Yeah, yeah. That’s great. So coming back to your choices in your life — you went to high school in Japan. Yes. And after that, did you go out of your temple and go somewhere?Kodo: So when I was 18, I was very frustrated with the Japanese society where they don’t accept or welcome LGBTQ people. I felt that it was very binary. And I started listening to Michael Jackson or Mariah Carey, and they would sing about racism, poverty, or female empowerment. And I felt that this is very different from what I hear in Japan, because in Japanese love songs, they always talk about male and female love stories. So I moved to the U.S. And when I went, I went to Parsons School of Design — it’s an art school, in Manhattan. So everybody wore colorful clothes and was very expressive. The more you show your flavor, the better. And during that time I felt that, oh, if I want to shine, I have to do something unique, something that others can’t imitate. And the answer I felt was hiding in my origin — that I grew up in a temple, and I struggled with my sexuality. And I felt that, well, I said that I didn’t like Buddhism when I was younger, but I didn’t know what Buddhism was about. Why do we need Buddhism? Why do we need monks? Why do people come to the temple? So I decided to go to monk training, understand what it was about, and then make a decision if I want to do it, if I agree, if I like it or not.Shoukei: Okay, so you spent a couple of years in the United States?Kodo: Yes, I spent — by then I think I had spent like eight years.Shoukei: Eight years. Yeah.Kodo: So in total, I spent 11 years in the US.Shoukei: So your mind may be like half American. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So from 18 to 29, right?Kodo: 18 till twenty-nine. So my youth, my personality — it’s when you become an adult.Shoukei: Right? Yeah. And during those years, when you came back to Japan, you came out to your parents. And so those periods must have been very dynamic, right? Yeah. For you.Kodo: When I was in Japan, I almost never met anybody who was proud to be homosexual. But in the US, I watched TV shows and movies, and I met my professor who was gay. I went to see Pride parades, LGBTQ activists. For example, Tim Cook —Shoukei: CEO, Apple, yes.Kodo: — is also a proud gay CEO. And I felt that, oh, I just didn’t know about who I was. It’s just that Japanese society was not welcoming or appreciating our existence enough. But there are many people who are overcoming this stigma and thriving globally. I just needed to see my peers outside Japan. So why do I have to hide if there’s nothing to hide? I just had prejudice and discrimination toward myself, which was planted by society. So when I came out, I felt like I was born again. I can finally live my own life. I was so happy.Shoukei: And in the United States, you found many colleagues and allies, friends. And no more alone.Kodo: Right. When I went to the Pride parade in Manhattan, I saw a sea of people. The crossing was just, like, maybe 3 meters away, just a few steps away, but there were too many people that I couldn’t move at all. And I was very frustrated — I was like, oh, this place is so crowded and it’s annoying — but many people were there to support my rights. So when I hear some discriminatory words in Japan, I remember, I was like, oh, but I have this many people — as many as I can’t move — who are supporting my identity. So they gave me a little power. And I felt that wherever I am, I should always be proud, and show that it’s not anything to be ashamed of.Shoukei: And so being encouraged by those allies and supportive people, you decided to somehow rediscover and reunite with Buddhism. Yeah. So I’m very curious about how you found Buddhism through your lens.Kodo: Oh, sure. So since when I was young, I always felt that society is very unfair for women. Because I also feel like a woman — when women are expected to serve tea or to be supporting, obedient, and quiet. My mom said, oh, as a temple wife, I shouldn’t speak up. I shouldn’t be too opinionated. I don’t want to be seen as noisy. But I was like, why, mom? You’re smart and wise. Why are you not sharing or speaking up? I know she’s, you know, very creative and strategic. So I felt that just because they’re a woman, they shouldn’t be oppressed in society, not just in temples. So when Buddhism says that everyone is equally valuable, including women and LGBTQ people, I wanted to use that teaching to wake people up and give them confidence. Maybe because I am an Aquarius, I’m about revolutionizing and changing the old traditions — I feel like I need to start a new chapter. That’s my personality. So I thought, Buddhism is respected, and what if I, as both a homosexual who is not traditionally respected and a monk — how will people respond to me? And I wanted to encourage people who are feeling like they are not supposed to speak up. So I felt that it’s my responsibility, instead of praying for the ancestors or doing the rituals that other monks do, to spread the empowering message.Shoukei: So, as we know, Buddhism, because of its long history and wide exposure to many different cultures and regions, has many different aspects. And of course, if we come back to the original teaching from Shakyamuni Buddha, that teaching is very liberating and transformative, accommodating anybody from any background, any gender, and so on. But when it comes to what today’s Buddhism is, although it is still Buddhism, there are many things that may not necessarily be liberating or transformative, you know. So how did you reconcile this complexity?Kodo: Sure. That’s a good question. I feel that the origin of Buddhism was to empower and bring equality to people and help them live a balanced, smart life. And a lot of teachings, or maybe rules, were created to kind of sustain the community of the Sangha. So we, in my opinion, must not confuse the teaching and the school rules. For example, when we learn at school, we learn the same things, but there are also other rules that come with school — maybe you shouldn’t bring knives to school, maybe you should have a school uniform, or you can’t dye your hair, you can’t wear makeup — all these things in order to make the community harmonious and in order.Shoukei: So it sounds like the school rules in Japan, particularly, right?Kodo: But that is understood as a Buddhist teaching. And that may be confusing. Some of the teachings may not apply to our modern life anymore. And the objective of Buddhism, I believe, is to help people live a better life and not kind of limit our freedom. Buddhism should be a tool to go where we want to go, and it’s not the goal itself. Sometimes we try to be like the most Buddhist that we can be — I kind of feel people trying to do that — but there’s, to me, no such thing. Buddhism is there to support the way you want to go. And those rules or presets will be very helpful when you have problems that you need to solve. So that’s my approach. And yeah, so maybe that’s when people have some questions about if I’m a real monk or if I’m really following Buddhist teachings. But it’s not that I’m not thinking about these things. I think in the society today, we need more empowerment. We need to be flexible. We need to reconcile with the digital, innovative, competitive world. So I’m trying to respond to these things after studying the basics of Buddhism in my own way.Shoukei: Yeah, yeah. It’s a good way to distinguish school rules and the dharma. Yeah, it’s a very helpful way to understand. So practically, when you went through all the programs to be ordained and eventually to receive, in the Japanese Buddhist system, a kind of certificate to inherit your father’s and mother’s temple — you must have met a lot of very traditional, conservative monks, who don’t necessarily distinguish the school rules and the teachings. So I’m asking because I myself have met a lot of monks like this. Right.Kodo: Well, I try to take a good distance. Because what I feel is that their world or their experience is not mine. So from their perspective, from their experience, from what they studied, I’m sure it makes sense for them. But me, growing up struggling with my sexuality, I can empathize and understand what other people feel — and do the traditional monks cater to them? There are things that only I can do. And well, I feel that there are always different parties in many groups. So there are monks who are traditional, but who supported me saying that, well, you can be homosexual, whatever you want to be, and still be a Buddhist monk. And what you wear — for example, I like to wear makeup — one monk said that monks have been evolving. For example, that monk was a university professor. There are monks who are also doctors or acupuncturists, and they wear scrubs or watches or different outfits depending on their jobs. So when our mission is to liberate and encourage everybody, why should the outfit be a problem? If you can empower and liberate people, I don’t see that as a problem. So I try to lean on these, I would say, liberal and broad-minded people as my mentors. How about you in your situation? How do you find the traditionally-minded Buddhist monks?Shoukei: Most, most, most of the monks in Japan — 99, maybe 99.9% — sustain their life by running a temple, right? Taking care of memberships, leading ceremonies, managing the cemeteries, and so on. In my case, I don’t do these things at all today. I used to do it under the... yeah, so I’m affiliated with a temple in Tokyo. And since I became a Buddhist monk, in the Japanese definition, 23 years ago, in the beginning I started supporting my boss, the head priest, sitting next to him when he did some ritual ceremonies and so on. But at some point, I decided to be independent, out of my entrepreneurship, maybe. So since then, I’ve been sustaining my life by writing, speaking, thinking, and consulting — with people, not in the temple community. So if you think of a traditional monk, or if you look at me from the lens of a traditional monk 100 years from now, my way of being a monk may not be that traditional or conservative. But if you look back far into the life of ancient monks, 800 years ago, such as Shinran or Honen, who didn’t do those ritual funeral ceremonies — they were not monks who took care of local temple communities and so on. So in this sense, if I may, I’m kind of following the past, the way of life, like Shinran.Kodo: I agree. I think the founders of our schools were the 0.1%, as you said, because they were seen as rebellious or groundbreaking or rule-breaking. They were criminals. Right. And they were sent to far-away islands. But their intention, I think, was good, because Honen, the founder of my school, Jodo-shu, Pure Land Buddhism, wanted to help everybody by saying that as long as you pray and chant, everybody and anybody — even if you’re a criminal, sex worker, hunter, disabled, wherever it may be — everybody is sure to be enlightened.Shoukei: Just as they are. Right.Kodo: Regardless of how many good deeds you make in life. Because until then, everybody needed to maybe chant and struggle with different trainings, maybe sit under the waterfall —Shoukei: — to accumulate merits.Kodo: Right. But not everybody is able to do that. So in order to give hope to these people, he kind of curated good teachings to help those people. So in that way, I believe it’s a good thing to adopt and modernize and try to help people. That’s what I believe.Shoukei: Right, right, you know. So thanks to the long, wide history of Buddhism, whatever you do, you can find someone in the old age who did a similar thing. So whatever you do, you can recognize yourself as traditional. That is true.Kodo: That is true. Because Shinran, I believe, was the first monk who got married?Shoukei: Yes, right. Yes, historically. Official history.Kodo: He’s the founder of the most widely believed school in Japan. So, well, to be honest, I receive some criticism or questions from overseas listeners or viewers that I am not a real monk because I’m married or I am homosexual. But I feel that this 800-year history was written 800 years ago. And this is the way I grew up. And yeah, I think I would love more viewers to see the broader history and its evolution, and yeah, maybe adopt what we need today. So.Shoukei: Let me slightly switch to a different conversation. I mean, yes, we both live within the Pure Land tradition, which is, broadly speaking, most of the Buddhism in Japan, within the Mahayana school. But even within the Mahayana school, there are many different schools. And in the United States, I’m sure that the most famous school from Japan should be Zen. Yeah. And for most people, Buddhism is equivalent to Zen. So I am sure that when you were in the United States and spoke about Buddhism, people would ask, oh, so you are in the Zen tradition. And unfortunately, Pure Land is very unpopular. So how do you see this situation? How do you interpret and translate this unpopular tradition, namely Pure Land Buddhism, for the audience in the United States, who are not familiar with, you know, nembutsu, 南無阿弥陀仏, and so on?Kodo: Sure. So I’m not trying to promote Pure Land Buddhism to begin with. I just want everybody to feel powerful and valuable. And if the Pure Land Buddhist teachings help us to remember our worth, then I will quote it. My mission is to really empower people. Yeah. And I sometimes feel confused when people expect me to practice Zen or meditation, because that’s not what we really do. We do chanting. And we never had to practice Zen. Which I wish I had learned, because it looks interesting. But I think Zen is popular in the West because many people are overwhelmed by the competitive society, materialism and capitalism.Shoukei: Every day, a need for something to hold onto.Kodo: Right. So I think that’s why Zen is popular. And Pure Land Buddhism was created to bring salvation to many people who were maybe not able to reach the nobles in the past in Japan who were building temples and receiving support and advice from monks. Honen, the founder of Pure Land Buddhism, wanted to help everybody. But I don’t think that’s what westerners are looking for in that sense, because religion was pretty much accessible to all people. So the reason for the birth of Pure Land Buddhism maybe doesn’t really apply. But what we need, I believe, is the message of equality — and when we feel that we are not invited into some rooms because of where we come from, or our ethnicity or sexuality, I want people to feel that we should take up space. So that’s what I believe.Shoukei: Yeah, yeah. Your approach completely resonates with me. And yeah, our mission is not converting people to Pure Land Buddhism, but encouraging and helping them. So from this point of view, I’m always looking for the implication of the Pure Land tradition for people living in today’s world. Yes, as you said. And you know, we seem to be living in a very fragmented — I forgot the English word — unpredictable world. The change in society is very fast, very quick, in terms of the value system and technology. And yes, geopolitics. And et cetera. So this situation seems to resonate with the age where the founders of Pure Land Buddhism, Honen and Shinran, lived 800 years ago. And what we can learn from Pure Land Buddhist thinking, such as Tariki — the other power, I don’t like this translation because it’s too literal —Kodo: — depending on Amitabha to take us to the Pure Land.Shoukei: Yeah, so. We have that teaching, but you know that sounds too superstitious for some people, right? Yeah. So one of the implications I learn from Pure Land Buddhism for today’s world is it’s a Buddhism for the age of no control. We are almost forced to surrender to the radical change of the world. It looks like it’s uncontrollable already. But in our paradigm so far, we have been trying to keep control on everything as much as possible. So if the level of uncontrollability comes up to a certain threshold, we get too concerned, too worried, and we get stuck out of fear. But what I learned from our ancestors like Shinran — he emphasized shin, having shin, or in my interpretation, radical trust in this world. Radical trust in this world, as much as whatever happens, I anyhow accept it. Without a controlling mindset. Right. So yeah, I think this is something we can learn from this tradition today.Kodo: That is true. So whatever may happen, we have faith in ourselves and we are able to keep going because we have this pillar inside of us. Well, because the world is changing so quickly, our values and maybe trusted people around us — the pillars — may be shifting in the years to come. You know, when I think about Honen founding Pure Land Buddhism, it was when there was plague, when many people were starving or struggling with illness. So it’s kind of similar to what we experienced with COVID. Indeed. Right. Well, it’s not an easy way for us, because we are seen as maybe rebellious or untraditional, and we have to stay strong. And that’s why I think we are connected to support each other. But the good thing is that we are connected to the global audience. And we are also learning from each other. And I think that’s where we feel like our voice matters. Right. And I truly admire that your book is published in many — 17 languages?Shoukei: Yeah, over 20 actually.Kodo: Oh, wonderful. So I think we have to remind ourselves that our voice is needed, and there are people who are looking for this information, because we see what happens maybe more than what the traditional monks see. So that’s — well, it is also my mission to see what the world needs in the future. From your perspective, what would you say is something you want to do next? Yeah, how do you see the world going forward?Shoukei: So I, as a Buddhist futurist, am somehow sure that the course of our civilization is going toward liberation. It seems like the value system and the social systems has been captivated in — if I may use this word — an almost religion called humanity. In the modern age, maybe after the Renaissance, for 300 years or so, for a couple of centuries, we have been celebrating human flourishing, humanity. It has been a very human-centric worldview. Yes, that’s true. But what we are witnessing today is the limitation of this worldview. If you look with a sane mind at the nature of this world, human is not the only species, of course. We are living in the interbeing world, where everything, everyone is interconnected to each other. So somehow, advanced, forward-looking thinkers and scientists are discovering or rediscovering this worldview where we see human not as the center or the supremacy of this universe, but just a part of the species — and accommodating a new comer, a new family member, namely AI. Yes. So I see we are being liberated from this conventional religion called humanity toward — I don’t know the exact word, but maybe related to biosphere or beyond human, whatever. And in this age, again, you know, Mahayana Buddhism has a lot of things to say, because in its core there is the concept of interbeing. So yeah.Kodo: I think that’s a way to kind of graduate from materialism or comparison, from feeling like we have to keep achieving things. Because we’re not only comparing ourselves with other humans, but maybe we are just part of nature. Maybe you can see how plants grow or seek goals in different things — maybe to protect nature — or it can be something that others might not necessarily value, but if you can find value in your own way, you kind of graduate from the things that used to cause us stress.Shoukei: Yeah, I think so. And we human beings used to be sensible or sensitive enough to discern what a tree is saying by touching its surface. But today, including me, we no longer have that sense anymore. But thanks to technology that enables us to listen to the voice of trees, of animals, through AI —Kodo: Uh-huh, they have so much to say.Shoukei: Yes, yes, yes. The voices have been analyzed by some scientists recently, and thanks to AI, you know, we will be able to understand the voices from other species. So yeah, we may rediscover the relationship with other species and then be able to recognize that we are not the only stakeholders on this planet. So yeah, it’s an age of expansion. So yeah, let’s see what will happen, and in this course of civilization, what kind of implication can we rediscover from this wisdom.Kodo: Wonderful. I think they might have different ideas, or maybe they will show us a new way. Yeah, I’m very excited to see that. I never had that mindset before, but yeah, comparing myself to others — I think that also has a lot of hints for overcoming what we’re going through now.Shoukei: All right, so maybe it’s time to close this episode for now. But let’s continue our conversation. Yeah, I’m looking forward to talking more. So for now, thank you so much for joining this program.Kodo: Thank you so much.— sound cooperation —* Openingshō (Japanese mouth organ)｜Junpei Otsukaorin (Japanese singing bowl)｜Syouryu* Endingpiano｜Nozomu Takahashi Get full access to Living Dharma: A People’s Buddhism for everyday life. at www.living-dharma.com/subscribe