Mormon Discussion Archives - Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel

We are 1 year removed from “the Policy”.  What does the Data tell us?  How has it affected my family?  What has been the aftermath?  And most importantly Where do we have yet to go?  On the 1 year anniversary…. we explore this and more. The post 240: November 5th 2016 – 1 Year From The Policy appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Richard Ostler.  Just released as the Bishop of a Young Single Adult Ward, Richard sits down with us to share what it means to be inclusive and to love without limits.  He recently was featured in Jana Riess’ column titled “What one bishop offers Mormons who don’t ‘know’ the church is true”.  Richard unabashedly is a LGBT ally and an advocate for better understanding those with doubts.  We talk of his hope for the future of Mormonism and what we can each do in the meantime to nudge ourselves to where we need to get to. This episode goes public on November 5th –  1 year after the “policy” leak. The post 239: Richard Ostler – Ministry of Love appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we talk about the gift of the Holy Ghost.  The question is have we defined a theology that can be defended in terms of those who have the gift of the Holy Ghost having an increased access to spiritual connection over the rest of the world?  Is the Gift of the Holy ghost discernibly something more than the experience that non-mormons are having within their various faith traditions?  We try to tackle that on today’s episode. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkh_aliF3E The post 238: The Holy Ghost Conundrum appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

A shift in my public tone has occurred.  That tone has been below the surface for some time.  I worry that listeners may be turned off by what they perceive as my having gone off the reservation in terms of faithfulness.  I fear people in such a perception may feel one less place of sanctuary to explore their faith journey while still looking to feed their faith.  Today is about “Why I stay”.  Today is about the beauty that is Mormonism.  Today is about the positive that exists in the tension we all carry.  Today is about showing those on the fence ready to leave that there is sufficient reason for some of us to stay.  Today is about about what Mormonism offers that can not be found elsewhere in such abundance.   Today I tell you “Why I Stay” The post 237: The Beauty That Is Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we sit down McArthur Krishna, one of the authors of Our “Heavenly Family, Our earthly Families”.  We talk about Heavenly Mother, the role of women in scripture, the importance of gender equality in the stories we tell, and a inclusive definition of family.  We also talk about her adventure of a life and the curveballs that life throws. Get the Books: Our Heavenly Family, Our Earthly Families Girls Who Choose God: Stories of Courageous Women from the Bible Girls Who Choose God: Stories of Strong Women from the Book of Mormon   The post 236: Heavenly Family Earthly Families appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

My shelf crashed around the age of 32.  I was serving as a Bishop well late into my second year of that calling.  No one knew…. not my Stake President, not my counselors, not even my wife.  I had many a sleepless nights and tried every solution I could to find the kind of peace that allowed me to maintain my prior beliefs.  There was an ebb and flow to my faith.  Finding way stations along the way to pause and rest believing perhaps I had found an answer.  But those gifts of grace were only momentary plateaus useful in slowing me down, giving me time to process, and helping see forward was the only way as I sought truth in that way a real truth-seeker does.   I delved into every nook and cranny of Mormonism, ingesting every faithful evidence, every critical question.  I dove deep into a study of the atonement, and those beautiful gifts of Mercy and Grace.  I read Quinn, Bushman, Givens, and  Prince.  I also gave an immense amount of time to Holland, Gene R Cook, Brad Wilcox, Maxwell, and others.  I spent a lot of time in my job on the road alone.  Sometimes hours a day.  Just me, My MP3 player, and those voices of leaders and scholars.  I found podcasts and audio books feeling if I just listened to one more thing I could find that missing puzzle piece that helps me see where all the others belong and fit.  Trying so hard to keep it together I wrote apostles pleading for help.  I communicated with Church leaders at every level with no one having answers. …. One day something shifted in my mind.  Some new idea entered in and it pushed an old idea out.  Rather than continue the compulsion to make the pieces fit, this new idea which was almost a living breathing thing… It was the permission to take it all down.  To disassemble everything.  To deconstruct my faith piece by piece.  Each piece removed would be studied with wondrous intent.  Examining every nook and cranny.  Every side of every piece.  Checking it over and over to see if some angle was missed.  Feeling for the first time in my life I was beginning to own my own faith.  I kept the pieces that were beautiful, interesting, and some simply because they were still useful.  Others that were ugly, unhealthy, or untrue were discarded.  Others still were set off to the side for later examination, their final place yet to be decided. When this process had progressed…. one can never say finished or completed as this is a process that continues over a lifetime…. but when this process had progressed to a point where I began to have some retrospective insight of where I was and how far I had come, I realized some particles of wisdom, of insight, of advice that may be useful to those less familiar with this terrain.  I don’t claim to know any ultimate truths but I do suggest that those of us on this narrow path can learn much from the collective wisdom from the whole of us who are traveling and have traveled it.  I offer here several thoughts.  If they are helpful great.  Claim them and make them yours.  If not please discard them and continue searching for others.   Jesus vs Gospel vs Church:  How the Church even in its weakness does its job. Let me start by being blunt.  Jesus as the literal divine Son of God who lived 33 years in mortality, died on the cross for you and me, and rose in three days….. well…….  His story may not be literally true.  In fact God himself may not be real.  At least not this figure from whom we were literally made in his image, whom sits on a throne up in yonder heavens.  I think everyone skirts around this and no one wants to just put this out into the ether of Mormonism but it needs to be said.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  I have faith in God.  I have faith in Christ.  I hope in Jesus and his atonement.  And to be honest whether he is historical and divine or not, I have truly been affected… might I say changed…. by his grace and mercy. With that stated, let me share that his Gospel is absolutely true.  Jesus gives us a example, a path, a way of life that calls us to both connect with the divine and to be something bigger than ourselves.  I know the Gospel is true because when I am striving to live it, it lives within me.  Whether Jesus is historical, I suggest you come to grips that his gospel is real and living. When I say Gospel, I don’t mean Church.  They are very different separate things… even unrelated or polar opposites at times.  The latter is flawed, imperfect, and at times downright unhealthy.  Might I even say dead.  Dead in that anytime it operates unconnected to the living Gospel it commits behaviors that are empty of light and life.  The former is Perfect, a source of strength or in other words living waters.  The gospel is truly deep and alive and it calls us to be so as well. I need to say here as well… The Church or specifically The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may not be true and living in the way many are seeking to prove or disprove.  Yet at that same moment it may be just that…. True and Living.  Let me explain.  The Church’s mission is to bring all unto Christ.  The Church in its deep and unhealthy shortcomings may do just that.  For those of us in such a faith journey we need this tension… in fact it is this tension which picked us up and set us down on the narrow path.  Without this tension we would still be living in a binary world, looking to extrinsic authorities and never seeing the world through glass less darkly.  As mad and angry as I am at times with my religion, it is this very tension which has pointed me to Christ.   That for way too long I had looked to the Church to save me, until one day I saw it for what it was, a failed human led endeavor that provided more disappointment and shortcomings then I was ever expecting.  In that moment when I perceived just how flawed it was, it is as if in my mind I could picture the church sadly stepping aside and pointing me towards that which was truly redemptive… Christ and his gospel. In failing, the Church essentially has asked us not to ultimately trust it.  Not to place it as our foundation but rather to see it only as a tool designed to help us see that our trust all along should have been placed elsewhere…. in Christ.  In other words you need this tension.  If you can bear it, you need to swim in these waters.  For those who leave for their personal well-being, I validate and honor your choice.  I have been oh so close myself at times and reserve the right to say enough at some future point.  For now, I need this tension.  That even if the Church isn’t “TRUE”, it is true and living and performs the very mission that Christ allegedly gave it.  Even in failing, and it fails miserably at times, it does its job.  I could even argue if the Church was healthy enough that none of us saw reason to doubt it, that it actually would fail at its mission.  Can you make space in your heart and mind to see that the very reason you have moved onto the narrow path is because the Church failed you?   Answers vs Questions: Living in the Question: When your shelf first cracks you go into panic mode.  At least I did.  I knew there were troublesome questions but also knew if I just read enough I would find satisfactory answers.  I needed the answers.  I craved them but around every corner was 5 more questions.  And the original question?  Well it would, once in a great while, end with a satisfactory answer but mostly disappointing and at times those answers were desperately overreaching and at times downright absurd and unreasonable.  But I could not walk away.  I knew the answers were there if I just said one more prayer, read one more scripture, fasted one more hour, read one more book, listened to one more podcast, or asked one more apologist.  I knew the Church was True or at least I needed it to be and darn it, I would see this through.  But as I learned by study and by faith, eventually it rested upon me.  An awareness that the questions no longer mattered.  Was the Book of Mormon historical… maybe… probably not….. in the end it doesn’t matter…. at least not to me.  By that I mean I no longer cared if it was historical.  It was no longer a question I had to find the answer to.  Rather I now quite enjoy living in the question.  I apply this to Prophets, Book of Abraham, Divine Translation, Old Testament historicity and, even the historical Jesus.  The answers to those issues don’t matter.  In fact a significant portion of my being is grateful that we don’t have the answers we want on such things as the questions are much more enjoyable than the answers.  And in questions, not answers, is real growth present.  I get it…… some of you are in that phase where you need the answers so bad.  Keep pushing.  Keep moving.  Keep pressing forward with steadfastness…. eventually your likely to find yourself in that space where the questions mean so much more than the answers. In Proving Contraries Truth is Made Manifest: “In Proving Contraries, Truth is Made Manifest” is a quote by Joseph smith.  It is deep.  It is one I love.  It is profound.  As I have wrestled with paradoxes, nuance, contradictions, and complexities I have discovered truth.  As I wrestle with scripture, with prophets, and even with God I have felt divine growth within me.  I have found the very attributes Christ exemplifies, showing up in my life with greater profundity.  Not that I have become perfect but rather that I know and sense the very Christ in attendance.  That as Paul relays Christ telling him, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”  And like Paul I exclaim “Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”  Growth… real personal growth…. occurs in our lives when our lives are messy.  When there is conflict, when there is tragedy, when deep challenges are present in our lives.  It is in this wrestling with the greatest paradox of all…. our very life…… that we are challenged by Christ and his gospel to become something more.  Again this is another thing we need.  We need contradictions within our life and for them to be in our very face day in and day out for us to learn deep and expansive truths that lead us into further stages of development.   Apostasy vs Faith Development: The Crux of Mormon Cognitive Dissonance: Cognitive Dissonance is defined as the tension in our mind when we are torn between two or more competing thoughts.  In Mormonism we use this a lot to describe the angst we feel wanting the Church to be what it claims while feeling distanced from such claims by the data and our experience.  Often people when they first enter this space they describe this “cognitive dissonance” as a Faith Crisis.  This angst feels like a real crisis.  Like everything you once held sacred and close has been torn from your arms and you are struggling, with no progress, to get it back.  The trouble is that in this phase or stage one has a faulty perspective.  It feels as though you are losing something.  That this loss places you as somehow further distanced from God and your very Church assures you something is wrong. This is the crux.  I will try not to get too technical.  The trouble is that the Church has created a rhetoric and a culture which makes you to feel as though you lost something when you really are gaining things.  When you recognize that the majority of Church members and for that matter Church curriculum writers, and Church leaders are in a earlier stage of development it becomes easy to see why our culture would be defensive in order to protect orthodoxy, certainty, and everyone fitting in and not challenging the status quo.  We have phrases like “wheat and tares” or “wheat and the chaff”, or “falling away”, or “slippery slope to apostasy”.  We are made uncomfortable by tough questions.  We don’t like our beliefs challenged.  And we certainly do not create a safe space in our faith for deeper thought and critical thinking.  But who can blame them?  They have not experienced this before.  Their faith works so well for them, just as it had for you only a short time ago.  Their pieces all fit and they know they are the chosen generation and  know with every fiber of their being that God is working so closely within their lives directly because of the religion they belong to.  Why would anyone open themselves up to having that which works so well and brings so much peace to being critically examined?  And so as you have progressed into another stage, others around you are left to feel threatened and to see your progress as its opposite…. regression. Only in the progressive stages can you grasp for the first time that faith is something more honorable than knowledge.  That doubt is the others side of the faith coin.  That real truth seeking will compel you to set down those things that only a short time ago were so obviously true.  You are a threat.  You are exhibiting the very traits they have been taught to see as losing something.  You have to shake that off.  You are growing.  You are progressing.  You are developing into deeper stages of being.  It is a positive.  Often early on people call it a crisis.  But there comes a moment when that word no longer is useful.  It is almost offensive.  Instead phrases like “faith journey”, “Faith reconstruction”, and “Faith transition” become more useful and point to a “Mighty Change” within you.  This cognitive dissonance at some point vanishes away and makes room for the development of your inner authority and ability to hold your own spiritual ground.  You begin to find joy in complexity and nuance, and begin to claim your own individual faith.   Literal vs Mystical: In earlier stages Literal interpretations are everything.  A literal Adam and a literal Eve in a literal Garden partaking of literal fruit and experiencing a literal fall in the very literal Missouri.   Noah is obviously real… duh.  The stories in their literal interpretation have a very limited scope of discussion and a very limited amount of application.  Something magical happens when you begin to grasp that many of these stories are likely not literal events with literal people experiencing them.  In this faith journey, I am guessing you are likely beginning to sense that these stories are something other than historically literal.  That there likely was no global flood, no talking donkey, and no tower from which all languages disseminated out from.  Your beginning to see that these stories may be figurative, mythical, allegorical, and perhaps plain and simple fiction.  I am also hoping you are beginning to see just how rich scripture can be once you see these other lenses in which to view holy writ.  The interpretations and meanings can become very deep and rich once the literal chains which these stories are bound by are loosed.  Jesus and his teachings have, for me, become more meaningful.  Stories like David and Goliath, Abraham and Isaac, and Moses and the Israelites begin to open up my mind to new thoughts and inspired understandings once I have made space in my mind for such heterodoxy, or unorthodox thinking.  Again are these stories real and literal?…..  Maybe…. probably not…… but again it doesn’t really matter.  What matters is that you have given yourself room to examine other paradigms and open to new modes of discovery. Wounded Church vs The Wounded Christ: Let me conclude with a comparison in order to offer some validation and some encouragement.  The Church is wounded.  It also is wounding others.  It prefers to hide and conceal those wounds.  It has clearly stated that it does not seek nor offer apologies.  Its LGBT approach is almost certainly contributing to LDS LGBT suicide and yet we brush off accountability and dismiss such discussion.  Church leaders make serious mistakes and yet the kind of acknowledgement or change seemingly only happens when the involved parties have long gone beyond the veil. This is very different than Christ.  In terms of seeking apologies Christ taught “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.”  And in giving apologies Christ has taught “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” Christ didn’t hide his wounds.  He offered them.  “Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”.  Christ has set the example and I want you to know that I validate the real hurt the Church may have or currently is causing you.  Sadly it often falls short of Christ’s example.  I join with you and pray that they Church will come to a place where it authentically offers its wounds and asks us to thrust in thy hand.  I, like you, pray for a day when the Church can apologize for its wrongs.  I too pray for the Church to be more open to real sincere truth seeking rather than giving lip service to it in the name of keeping the masses comfortable.  But in spite of all the church’s weaknesses and flaws we must remember it is pointing us to Christ.  It is Christ whom we should emulate and follow and whose opinion we should concern ourselves. Paul stated “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”  I validate the Church is for many a burden and it would be easy to simply go somewhere else.  It is my hope that you might consider staying and seeing this through.  That this can truly be the narrow path and that this church even in its flaws can be true and living. My Testimony: I know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.  I know because when I am striving to live those gospel ideals like faith, hope, charity, service, and sacrifice in my life I feel connected to something bigger than me. I have a deep faith in what I will call God.  Faith that there is something bigger out there that has influence in the world for good. I believe in Jesus Christ.  Not that he is historical but that the Christ of faith is worthy of my emulation.  He is worthy of my conversation.  He is worthy of my adoration.  Whether historical or not I have truly been affected by his grace and mercy. I know the book of Mormon is true.  Again not that it is a historical depiction of real people and real events but rather that it is scripture or in other words it is a sacred text accepted by my tribe and me as a book we shall call holy and one that invites us to interact with the divine.  I personally have had interactions with the divine through that sacred book.   For me it is truly scripture and worthy of being called such. I have faith in the restoration, that divine gifts have truly been restored to me through Mormonism. I hope in Joseph Smith.  I hope he was sincerely seeking God.  I hope he found that God he was seeking.  I hope God in some way is pleased with the offering Joseph submitted for future generations.  I hope in Prophecy, Seeing, and Revelation today as it truly offers the solutions to present ills in our faith. Lastly I have a knowledge that as we live in the tension as a people we can move towards Zion.  In the sacred name of Jesus Christ May the Lord warm your shoulders, Bill Reel The post 235: What My Faith Journey Taught Me appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we dissect a talk given at BYU on July 12th 2016 by Michael Goodman.  He talks about the proper way to seek truth.  There is much in this talk to be praised and I think Brother Goodman moves the ball in a positive direction.  That said I also think there are several flawed ideas within it that we find ourselves swimming in at the very present.  We dissect his talk and praise where I think he is helpful and empathetic and offer perspective where I think he missing the mark. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/michael-a-goodman_way-truth-life/ The post 234: Truthseeker appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we tell a true story about a fascinating Chicken named Mike.  There are several points to such a tale.  False Assumptions, doubting that things are possible, perspective on Shiz from the Book of Mormon, and lastly the idea that too many of us Mormons turn our brains off when we go to Church.  Today in honor of each of these we tell the incredible story of Miracle Mike.  The reading comes straight from the first link.  Enjoy http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/running-ponies/meet-miracle-mike-the-chicken-who-lived-for-18-months-without-his-head/ http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34198390 http://time.com/3524433/life-with-mike-the-headless-chicken-photos-of-a-famously-tough-fowl/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/07/the-chicken-who-lived-without-his-head-for-18-months/   http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/reverence-for-the-bible   The post 233: Miracle Mike appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Jon Ogden, author of “When Mormons Doubt: A Way To Save Relationships And Seek A Quality Life”.  We talk about his own journey as well as the book.  We discuss his premise that Truth and Beauty are different and that truth is often confused for beauty and that each has there own path to discovery. https://www.amazon.com/When-Mormons-Doubt-Relationships-Quality-ebook/dp/B01D7T93CQ       The post 232: Jon Ogden – When Mormons Doubt appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we sit down with Corbin Volluz and discuss the nuts and bolts of the Adam/God Doctrine.  We talk about what Brigham taught, How widely it was taught and implemented, How Leaders and apologists have attempted to explain it, and How leaders have attempted to make it disappear.  Once you understand this issue in full it becomes clear that the Church has no choice but to eventually own up and acknowledge Prophets can and have taught false Doctrine and grappling with truth and error is a much more difficult process then we have let on. Corbin has a blog post that also details the effort to make this teaching disappear.  It is found here on rational Faith’s Blog Corbin Volluz lives western Washington state. He has been practicing law for 23-years with a focus on criminal defense and personal injury. Corbin joined the LDS Church in June of 1978, shortly after the lifting of the priesthood ban, and has been studying Mormonism ever since. He has been published in several venues, including the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and BYU-Studies. RESOURCES http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/adamgod.htm http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/colton/personal/lds/adamisgod.htm https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/our-own-liahona?lang=eng http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm http://mit.irr.org/adam-god-doctrine http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2011/11/2009_Brigham_Youngs_Teachings_On_Adam.pdf http://www.aliveonline.com/ldspapers/AdamGod.pdf https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V15N01_16.pdf http://www.adamgod.com/ https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/MF0176.pdf The post 231: The Adam God Historical Subterfuge appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

When we think of issues that are barriers to faith, we often think of issues such as Joseph Smith’s Treasure Digging, the Book of Abraham, Stones & Hats, and Prophetic Errors…. yet for me the two biggest are a Global/Local Flood and the Tower of Babel.  We talked about the flood in episode #142 and today we talk about the tower of Babel.  While apologists are wanting us to edge carefully into a mythical interpretation, Mormonism officially demands a literal view.  In my perspective either angle begs so many questions and compels us to step further into the darkness where faith’s rubber hits the road. The post 230: Tower Of Babel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today We discuss the Anti-Christ Korihor in Alma Ch. 30.  We talk about half truth that he teaches, Korihor’s illegal arrest, the value of some of what he said, and what differentiated his doubt and behavior and sign seeking from that of Thomas in the New Testament.    Thanks for listening!!!! The post 229: Team Korihor appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

To the Orthodox Believer who thinks that outside Joseph Smith’s leg surgery that we know very little.  This gets more complex than that.  We actually know a lot more about Joseph’s youth and some of his experiences.  We hope you enjoy this chance to better understand the early life of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Most of us know the basic story.  Joseph was born in Sharon Vermont on Dec 23, 1805.  His parents Lucy Mack Smith and Joseph Smith Senior.  They were the parents of 11 children (two of the children died soon after birth), of which Joseph was the 5th. We have all likely heard the story of Joseph Smith’s leg surgery.  Around the age of 8 Joseph contracted what he called Typhus Fever and a infection settled in the bone of his leg.  Several procedures were done by nearby physicians to relieve the pain and swelling but the infection continued to get worse and amputations seemed like the only recourse.  Through the tender mercies of God, the only physician capable of doing the procedure that cured young Joseph happened to be residing nearby.  a Doctor Nathan Smith who had been developing a new procedure to treat such bone afflictions was called upon and his procedure saved Joseph Smith’s leg and perhaps his life.  More can be read about the surgery HERE & HERE & HERE & HERE That said there are many other experiences in the life of Joseph that we as members discuss very little that likely had a much bigger impact on his life and future role as Prophet of this dispensation.  Let go over some of these. 1.) The extreme likely hood that Joseph Smith Sr. and some of his boys were Water Witchers and knew the craft of using a diving rod. Most readers of Church history will pick out that the Smith boys and their father were often called upon to dig wells.  We often never consider the gravity of this in a time long before the use of electronic equipment to reveal where various compunds and materials are underneath the earth.  To dig a well was hard work and took some time.  If one were to select the wrong place to dig, days would be wasted and energy spent in vain.  Hence it was crucial to know where that water was.  Those who dug wells in Joseph day often located water with the use of a diving rod. We have four witness in the historical sources who say that Joseph was taught by his father how to use a divining rod around the age of 11.   Oliver Cowdery also appeared to have this gift and Joseph dictated a revelation to Oliver that discusses Olivers use of a Water Witching Rod. Please see LDS official source HERE. Even today many farmers and well diggers still insist on using such a method to “divine” where water is located before digging. 2.) Joseph associated with “Scryers” in the palmyra area and becomes a scryer himself who expands beyond locating water. A Scryer is defined one who uses divination to discover hidden knowledge, item, or percieves future events; especially by means of a crystal ball.  Surprisingly there were several scryers in the palmyra area.  One of those was Luman Walters.  Luman was born around 1789.  Perhaps as early as 1818 and certainly by the early 1820’s he is residing in Ontario County, NY just a mere 22 miles away from the Smith family.   Multiple witnesses tell of Luman’s Walters treasure digs in an effort to locate buried treasure beneath the earth.  It is believed by Mormon Scholar D. Michael Quinn that Luman Walters served in a sort of mentor role to Joseph Smith when it came to scrying and “treasure digging” or searching for buried treasure beneath the earth and several historical sources speak to this.  Joseph associated with other scryers as well, such as Sally Chase, Jack Belcher, Hiram Page, Chauncey Hart, William Stafford, Joshua Stafford, Samuel T Lawerence, and others.  Some of these individuals eventually joined the LDS Church and some played prominent roles in it’s history. 3.) Joseph gets his first Seer Stone in 1819, before the First Vision Sally Chase who we have already mentioned was a scryer.  She had a green translucent seer stone and Joseph in an effort to find a seer stone for himself asked to use hers.  Looking into her green stone he was able to locate a seer stone 150 miles away buried near a tree. Going to the place perceived in his mind and proceeding to dig, Joseph located his first seer stone, A whitish opaque stone which he used to in his early days as a “seer” hence the term “seer stone”. 4.) Joseph gets his second seer stone in 1822 before his first visit from Moroni. Joseph came into possession of his second seer stone by locating it while digging a well with Willard Chase (Sally Chase’s brother).  Wilford Woodruff says Brigham Young shared with him and others how Joseph located this stone. “Preside[n]t Young also said that the seer stone which Joseph Smith first obtained He got in an Iron kettle 25 feet under ground. He saw it while looking in another seers stone which a person had. He went right to the spot & dug & found it” (Wilford Woodruff’s journal, 5:382-83). Willard Chase who was there also tells us In the year 1822, I was engaged in digging a well. I employed Alvin and Joseph Smith …. We discovered a singularly appearing stone …. Joseph put it into his hat, and then his face into the top of his hat.  After obtaining the stone, he began to publish abroad what wonders he could discover by looking in it …. I ordered the stone to be returned to me again. He had it in his possession about two years.  Some time in 1825, Hiram came to me, and wished to borrow the same stone …. I told him if he would pledge me his word and honor, that I should have it when called for, he might take it. Later in Life Willard also disputes who was the rightful owner of the stone In the fall of 1826, a friend called upon me and wished to see that stone …. On going to Smith’s, and asking him for the stone, he said, “you cannot have it;” I told him it belonged to me, repeated to him the promise he made me, at the time of obtaining the stone: upon which he faced me with a malignant look and said, “I don’t care who in the Devil it belongs to, you shall not have it.” As late as 1830 Willard was still making attempts to get the stone into his possession. It is this stone that is almost certainly the one Joseph used to translate most if not all of the Book of Mormon we have today. 5.)  Joseph Smith and his brothers became very involved in Treasure Digging The Smith family practiced various types of scrying.  Water Witching, or the location of water using a diving rod.  Helping friends and neighbors locate lost items by putting a seer stone into a hat and burying one’s face into the hat to help locate the lost item.  But at some point the Smiths and others in the neighborhood also are involved in “Treasure Hunting” or “Treasure Digging”.  The practice involved the belief that there were treasures such as Spanish gold that were buried underground.   These treasures were often believed to have been protected by guardian spirits and that the spirits could move the treasure if the rituals were not practiced exactly as they were proscribed.   Often Joseph was the scryer on these digs meaning that he was the one telling the group where the treasure was buried.  He did this by placing his seer stone in a hat and burying his face in the hat to exclude all light.  We have several historical accounts of those involved in these treasure digs in Palmyra reporting that as they were digging for the treasure Joseph would tell them the treasure was slipping further into the earth.  These rituals at times included the drawing of magic circles, likely animal sacrifices including dogs, and guardian spirits.  We have accounts of those involved saying that Joseph remarked that there were spirits protecting the treasure and one account even describes the guardian spirit as a “throat slit Spaniard”.  Emma Smith’s cousin Hiel and Joseph Lewis reported “He [Joe Smith] said that by a dream he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box, were some gold plates with curious engravings, which he must get and translate, and write a book; that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years; that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box, when he was knocked down; that he again attempted to remove the stone, and was again knocked down; this attempt was made the third time, and the third time he was knocked down. “Then he exclaimed, “Why can’t I get it?” or words to that effect; and then he saw a man standing over the spot, which to him appeared like a Spaniard, having a long beard coming down over his breast to about here, (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach) with his (the ghost’s) throat cut from ear to ear, and the blood streaming down, who told him that he could not get it alone; that another person whom he, Smith, would know at first sight, must come with him, and then he could get it. And when Smith saw Miss Emma Hale, he knew that she was the person, and that after they were married, she went with him to near the place, and stood with her back toward him, while he dug up the box, which he rolled up in his frock” (Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, 24, 30 Apr. 1879). 6.) There were several treasure dig sites including the hill Joseph called Cumorah where the plates were eventually revealed. While Joseph tried to downplay his treasure digging activities even going so far as to say when asked about it Was not Joseph Smith a money digger? Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it. (Joseph speaking in the third person) – Joseph Smith, Elders’ Journal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [Kirtland, Ohio] 2 no. 3 (July 1838), 43. Also reproduced in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 120; History of the Church 3:29; Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 271. Joseph seemed uncomfortable talking much about this part of his youth but the the depth and breadth of his being involved is much more than a few small endeavors. Dan Vogel a well respected scholar of Mormon history has written a detailed article detailing what we know about the various treasure digging sites.  It appears that there may be approximately 18 sites, give or take.  Included is a photo listing the sites. At least one of these digs appears to have taken place on the hill called “Cumorah” by Joseph in 1825.  And these digs were extensive as the photo from the Mormon Hill dig that follows depicts 7.)  Joseph was to take someone with him to retrieve the plates and that person was not originally Emma. When Moroni spoke to Joseph, he informed him that he would need to bring someone with him to the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the plates.  Moroni even told him who that person was…. Joseph’s older brother Alvin.  The problem though is that Alvin’s dies before the date arrives.  Moroni again visits with Joseph and informs him that since Alvin has died the person he needs to bring is another Palmyra scryer Samuel T Lawrence.  But soon after Joseph changes his mind or is informed by Moroni that the actual right person to bring is Emma Hale. 8.) Many of Palmyra’s scryers were working against Joseph to try and get the plates from him On the night Joseph got the plates from the hill on September 21st 1827, Joseph Smith Sr. was sent to spy on Samuel Lawrence’s house until dark. Joseph recovers plates with Emma at midnight. Ten to twelve money diggers are working with Willard Chase. Chase sends for his own conjurer (Samuel Lawrence) to determine where the plates are hidden. Conjurers, including Sally Chase with her green glass and another diviner brought in from sixty miles away (Samuel Lawrence according to Lucy Mack Smith), tried to locate the plates by the stone. To elude Chase and Lawrence, Joseph moved the plates from the hearth to the cooper’s shop in the yard where Joseph Smith, Sr. carried on his trade. He buried the box under a floorboard and hid the plates themselves in a pile of flax in the shop loft. That night, Willard Chase and his sister, Sally Chase (with her green glass), came with their friends to search. They rummaged around outside but did not come in. Lucy learned later that Sally Chase told the men the plates were in the coopering shop. The next morning, the Smiths found the floor torn up and the box smashed. To their relief, the plates were safely buried in the flax.  – Richard L. Bushman,Rough Stone Rolling 9.) While the critics want to paint Joseph as a fraud, Joseph’s reputation as a successful scryer is evidence that something more was going on. One simply needs to ask how Joseph Smith met Emma Hale?  The fact is that that Emma lived in Harmony PA and Joseph residing in Palmyra was almost 300 miles away.  The reason these two meet is that Josiah Stowell hires Joseph to head up a treasure dig in Harmony PA and Joseph stays with the Hales while employed by Stowell.  So why does Josiah Stowell travel 300 miles to hire Joseph Smith?  Lucy Mack Smith, the Prophet’s mother says that Josiah Stowell came all the way from Pennsylvania to see her son on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye. Below are instances where there seems to be some credibility to Joseph’s ability as a “seer” In the first place, he told me of this stone, and proposed to bind it on his eyes, and run a race with me in the woods. A few days after this, I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him–I said, ‘Take your stone.’ I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat– the old white hat–and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin. – Martin Harris Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them. – Martin Harris Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did ‘possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it, but got a p— [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel’s house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel’s, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man’s head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner’s skill. – Josiah Stowel 10.) Joseph had at least three seer stones during his life and likely had others as well. He got his third known seer stone, a green stone, by Jack Belcher in Susquehanna Valley.  –  The Refiner’s Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844 page 151-152 In fact Brigham Young said Joseph had told him and others   “Every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make evil use of it.” (Brigham Young’s journal, as quoted in Latter-day Millennial Star, 26:118,119) Once one knows the history of Joseph youth one can see that Joseph family were very involved with the mystical and “frontier magic”.  These ideas and beliefs were full of parallels to Moroni and the gold plates and likely played strongly into Joseph’s framework and perspective.  Even later after he has the plates and is translating using the Urim & Thummim, he eventually abandons those divine instruments instead returning to the seer stone in the hat that he had used comfortably for years to complete his translation of the Book of Mormon.  We are left to to discern where Joseph Frontier Magic ends and his Prophethood begins.  For the faithful we should see that Hoseph’s childhood is much more complex than we had been taught, none the less it plays a huge role in our having the Book of Mormon as seen by Emma Hale Smith’s quote which I leave you with “In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us” – (Emma Bidamon Smith interview, 1879, available in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, Volume 1, p. 541)   Resources https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/27599/3/Parker_Stuart_AC_201103_PhD_thesis.pdf http://undergroundnotes.com/graphics7/Dialogue_V27N03_211.pdf exploringmormonism.com/palmyra-magic-timeline/ http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones http://fr.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luman_Walters   The post 228: A Nuanced View to Joseph Smith’s Youth appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This one was painful to do.  Yet if we are ever going to become Zion we need to be able to honestly look at ourselves in the mirror.  Do we have the traits of an unsafe group?  Do we have a safe space for folks to develop faith within?  Today I tackle what general warning signs of a potentially unsafe and unhealthy group looks like and where Mormonism falls definitively short.  We may be the Lord’s authorized Church but we also have a lot of work to do…. Luckily as Elder Uchtdorf has noted, this restoration still has a lot of work to do.     Resources: http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/Warning_signs_of_dysfunctional_cults.html http://s7.zetaboards.com/Haven_Forums/topic/1047617/1/ http://careynieuwhof.com/2016/03/6-signs-church-culture-toxic/ http://thomrainer.com/2015/06/anatomy-of-a-sick-church-10-symptoms-to-watch/ https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/64869/cultlike-behavior-geez-whoda-thunk?page=1&size=10 http://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html http://mycultlife.com/spiritual-abuse-2/definition-of-a-cult/   Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”. The group/leader is always right. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided. Ten signs of a safe group/leader. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.     The post 227: Warning Signs of an Unsafe Group appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

To the Orthodox Believer who still holds belief that Doctrine in our faith equals Truth.  Or the idea that when the prophet speaks or when all 15 top leaders are unified that we have certainty that God has spoken.   It may not be that simple.  Lets explore. I validate that Doctrine in the Church as a word has been unanimously used by our culture and even officially within our Church to mean absolute truth from God.  When we speak of the Doctrines of the Church we speak of the most serious guiding principles of our faith. The Church defines “Doctrine” in this way. Doctrine is the word of God as found in the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets and apostles. This seems simple enough but let’s explore the many ways Doctrine comes to us. 1.) Canonized Scripture Scripture is defined by the Church as Words, both written and spoken, by holy men of God when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. To go one step further canonized scripture is defined by the Church this way The authoritative collection of the sacred books used by the true believers in Christ. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the canonical books are called standard works. Many Latter-day Saints assume that all “canonized” Scripture is “The Word of God”.  Take a listen though to Brigham Young and how he defined scripture. I have heard some make the broad assertion that every word within the lids of the Bible was the word of God. I have said to them, “You have never read the Bible, have you?” “O, yes, and I believe every word in it is the word of God.” Well, I believe that the Bible contains the word of God, and the words of good men and the words of bad men; the words of good angels and the words of bad angels and words of the devil; and also the words uttered by the ass when he rebuked the prophet in his madness. I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances. Journal of Discourses 13:175 (May 29, 1870) Brigham seemed to hold a very nuanced view of canon and scripture.  That in essence found within it is the “word” of God but that the words are not necessarily the “words” of God.  That not all the ideas, stories, and wording can be described as the “mind and will of God”. Joseph Smith seemed to hit on this as well for example when he suggested that the Song of Solomon were not inspired writings.  Yet consider this….  The Song of Solomon is canonized scripture.  That is not debated.  It is part of our canon and has been accepted by the saints as such.  In essence one is not debating whether it is scripture but rather whether it contains the word of God.  It should also be added as a paradox that While Joseph taught that the “Song of Solomon is not inspired writing Joseph also used wording from the Song of Solomon three times within his revelations In light of this we could go further in recognizing that from member to member in our faith there will be differences in whether one takes certain stories as literal, figurative, allegorical, or simply as the words of men.  Even Leaders have disagreed on such concepts.  Take for instance these quotes from several leaders suggesting many aspects of the Creation, Garden, and Fall are likely figurative. 2.) The Prophet While we believe that the Prophets can communicate with God, the question is how to recognize when that is happening and what our expectations should be of how often this happens. Many Latter-day Saints suggest that when The Prophet declares information was received from God it can be trusted to be such. Except consider the following examples Brigham young taught several ideas as God revealed Doctrine that we now disavow as false.  One of these was regarding Adam, the first mortal, as actually being Elohim or Heavenly Father. Brigham taught this repeatedly and in official venues such as General Conference as can be seen by the following quotes HERE  and   HERE   and   HERE.  In terms of where he got the idea is debated but the key is Brigham declared publicly to the saints that it had come from God by revelation.  For example the following quote. “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me – namely that Adam is our father and God – I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. – Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, v. 22, no. 308, June 8, 1873 President Young didn’t care how many members disagreed because he felt secure that this “Doctrine” had come from God. The trouble is that President Kimball runs counter to President Youngs teaching when he stated the following. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine. – Spencer W. Kimball, “Our Own Liahona,” Ensign (November 1976) There are several instances of this occurring on one scale or another but suffice it to say that even when Prophets claim to have received “Doctrine” from God, it is not always the case.  It may be helpful to keep in mind that Joseph Smith said “A Prophet is only a Prophet when acting as such”. Elder Christofferson clarified this point when he said At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such. But it should also be noted that when multiple leaders state on multiple occasions some teaching we still have instances of said teaching being incorrect. 3.) When all 15 top leaders are unified This goes one step further than #2 and essentially is based on the premise that while the Prophet might declare and institute false doctrine, that when all 15 top men are unified on a matter, it can be trusted to be the word of God.  this seems to be reinforced by Elder Neil L. Anderson when he said the following. A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find. But this concept also is problematic. Consider the following example.  Starting with Brigham Young, people with black skin were banned from Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple.  Our leaders officially pronounced theories surrounding this policy. For example Mark E Peterson taught. ” If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection. He will get a place in the celestial glory.” But among these teachings were some that were very official.  These included that people with black skin had the “Curse of Cain”, that they were less valiant in the pre-mortal life, and that inter-racial marriage is sin.  In the 1940 we have two documented instances where the Church states that such teachings are “official” Doctrines of the the faith.  The first is a written correspondence between a Dr. Lowry Nelson and the First Presidency where George Albert Smith and his counselors declare to Dr. Nelson the following this is contrary to the very fundamentals of God’s dealings with Israel dating from the time of His promise to Abraham regarding Abraham’s seed and their position vis-a-vis God Himself. Indeed, some of God’s children were assigned to superior positions before the world was formed.” – (First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson, 17 July 1947) “Your position seems to lose sight of the revelations of the Lord touching the preexistence of our spirits, the rebellion in heaven, and the doctrines that our birth into this life and the advantages under which we my be born, have a relationship in the life heretofore.” – (First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson, 17 July 1947) “From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel.” – (First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson, 17 July 1947) Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and White races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient patriarchs till now. God’s rule for Israel, His Chosen People, has been endogamous” – (First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson, 17 July 1947) “We are not unmindful of the fact that there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this area, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.” – (First Presidency letter to Lowry Nelson, 17 July 1947) We also have a 1949 First Presidency letter which states The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes. As we can see, to have the top 15 men, all prophets, seers, and revelators, united on some teaching or belief does not necessarily make it truth or “True Doctrine”.  Hopefully you will see that it is messy and that arriving at truth simply by believing another person or group of people regardless of their authority has the risk of being wrong. This leads to another point.  We often in our manuals, lessons, and talks repeat a teaching that originated with Wilford Woodruff and Heber J Grant.  The quote is as follows. “I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.) This quote is problematic.  If we take it to mean that the Prophet will never teach “False Doctrine” and never lead many of the saints to believe and implement said false teachings into their lives, we have already shown above that such occurs.  So what can it mean to lead astray?  This is a tough question that must be approached carefully.  One thought would be that while the prophet may err and may lead the Church down a false path on various ideas, that he can never be permitted to corrupt the saving ordinances and cause the Priesthood to retreat back into the “wilderness”.  Regardless of how one reframes such an interpretation we must step outside of the cultural interpretations we have used to frame such things.   Even Elder Bruce R McConkie admits that the Lord permits the Prophet to introduce and to disseminate false doctrine throughout the Church when he said Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine…. Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel….. I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality…. Another oft used quote is from Marion G Romney in general Conference repeating a story from his youth “I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.) since we already have covered the complexity of “being lead astray” the issue here is whether one will be blessed for following the prophet even if one feels he is wrong.  The quote could be interpreted to mean follow the Prophet and the Church generally, even if one dissents and does not follow a specific issue.  I personally can hold that space and it still leaves the statement to be true in a much more nuanced way.  In asking the question of whether we should follow a leader on specific instances we feel them to be wrong we should consider the following quotes. “Standard Works judge teachings of all men.  It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them.  Let us have this matter clear. we have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.  You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.  every man who writes is responsible, not the church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the church is duty bound to reject it.  If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the lord, then it should be accepted.  –  Joseph Fielding Smith Mormon Church’s president, Spencer W. Kimball stated when referring to the quote about following even when wrong that he was concerned and that it possibly would lead to “an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality” Consider this quote in the Church’s official Periodical which seems to teach the exact opposite of the quote being discussed. “The questions is sometimes asked, to what extent is obedience to those who hold the Priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely or blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should ot claima rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly” – 13 Nov 1852 Milennial Star I finish this article with the Lord’s own words found in D&C in the very first section.  The Lord seems to be setting the tone for what to expect from our leaders and to permit them room to be very flawed at times. D&C 1: 17-28 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets— The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh— But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; That faith also might increase in the earth; That mine everlasting covenant might be established; That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers. Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed; And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time. God seems to be saying that our leaders are human just like you and me.  they are weak, they will error, and they will sin, they will at times teach us false doctrines.  But as we all move forward in faith we as a Church might from them receive the word of God every once in a while or from time to time.         The post 226: Nuanced Approach to Doctrine appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

For the Orthodox Believer who holds that everyone needs to join Mormonism in order to be be exalted by God, It is not that simple.  Let’s explore. We often refer to our Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as “The Only True and Living Church with Which the Lord is Well Pleased” We also speak at great Length about being the only place God has Authorized its children to “hold” Priesthood and to administer saving ordinances.  Below are some ways God has given us to see these things. 1.) Church – And how God defines that word. D&C 10 has God saying several things – one of which is Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. There is this idea that no matter what God promises, whosoever is in his Church shall inherit his kingdom or exaltation….. hmmm.  Do we currently believe all members of the Earthly institution called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will inherit God’s kingdom?  Is there another way that God defines Church that we are missing?  Consider just a few verses later God says Behold, this is my doctrine, whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Now consider that.  Also consider that this revelation was given before out Church was organized in 1830, before there even was a earthly institution.  God seems to be defining Church another way…. That in essence who ever is making positive changes in their life and pressing forward towards a more Christlike life is of his Church. 2.) That God wishes for us, as member missionaries, to convert all nonmembers to his earthly organized Church in order to save them and bring them into his plan and set them on the path. Otherwise what is all this Missionary work about right? Except that members of the Church only make up “point two percent” of the current world population.  And this doesn’t even take into account that 65% of that “point two percent” that are inactive members.  Or that when one considers all who have lived, are living, and will live versus all the members of the Church there has been makes the number even exponentially smaller than that.  If one need be Mormon the plan is actually very ineffective at the surface.  I know what your thinking…. Yeah but we do work for the dead and so we provide a way for all those folks.  I hear you and I validate that.  But I am asking a different sort of question that progressive Mormons like myself dare to ask.  Does being a member of the LDS faith in mortality increase my chance of receiving exaltation?  Think about that.  Are my non member friends and family at a spiritual disadvantage because they are not in the Church?  As you let that question just sit there lets see a quote from Elder Orson F. Whitney regarding non-members. Perhaps the Lord needs such men on the outside of his Church, to help it along. They are among its auxiliaries, and can do more good for the cause where the Lord has placed them, than anywhere else. Consider that.  That God may consider non-members as auxiliary members of his Church.  That they do more good for administering his plan outside the Church than in.  He continues Hence, some are drawn into the fold and receive a testimony of the Truth; while others remain unconverted—for the present; the beauties and glories of the gospel being veiled temporarily from their view, for a wise purpose. The Lord will open their eyes in his own due time. That their not being placed into the Church is for a Wise Purpose of God’s and that he will in his own due time open their eyes to the fullness of the gospel.  This brings in another point. 3.) The Church is his official organization that is called to carry out his plan right?  This is where those who are called and authorized to do his work are found correct? Elder Orson F Whitney also said God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of his great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous, for any one people. Consider that.  God is not just using our Church to carry out his work.  What is his work? For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This work is to vast, too arduous.  why?  The only explanation is that God is working to bring every single child of his home and The earthly institution is too small and too ineffective to accomplish it on its own.  But hasn’t God already told us that? The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. In this way are not inspired men like Mohammed and Confucius “Called” and “Authorized” to carry out God’s work. Don’t we already in our faith make the assertion that men like the reformers such as Luther, Tyndale, Wesley and others were called and authorized by God to carry out parts of his plan?  Don’t we already assert that Christopher Columbus and the George Washington and a whole host of others were “called” and “authorized” by God to carry out parts of his plan? Elder Whitney finished by saying Again I say, the Lord’s Work has need of auxiliaries outside as well as inside, to help it along. And I argue he is absolutely right. So why can’t a Latter-day Saint hold the belief that Pope Francis, the Catholic leader, is “called” and “Authorized” by God to be assisting this work?   And Once we come to grips that Mormon theology permits individuals who are “called” and Authorized” and “inspired” to be moving God’s work forward we are left with a very inclusive, expansive view of Mormonism. 4.) But we as members of the Church have the Priesthood and the Saving ordinances by which all must enter, right? Yes and No.  We have the only earthly institution in this dispensation that has “offices” within the priesthood.  But are we the only people using Priesthood on the earth?  Elder Oaks already has acknowledged that our sisters have “Priesthood Power” and “Priesthood Authority” when he stated. We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their Church callings, but what other authority can it be? that the Relief Society “[has] been given power and authority to do a great many things. The work which they do is done by divine authority.”… Thus, it is truly said that Relief Society is not just a class for women but something they belong to—a divinely established appendage to the priesthood. Isn’t that what Priesthood is?  The POWER and AUTHORITY of God given to his children to carry out his work. We have already discussed how many outside the Church were “Authorized” by God to carry out parts of his plan.  In other words we have already acknowledged the Church teaches these mean had “Authority” from God.  Now the Question is if they operated under God’s power.  Take Christopher Columbus for example.  Here is what Nephi says about him And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. And then consider what our faith teaches about how Columbus felt  The Lord was well disposed to my desire, and He bestowed upon me courage and understanding; knowledge of seafaring He gave me in abundance. …Our Lord unlocked my mind, sent me upon the sea, and gave me fire for the deed. Those who heard of my [enterprise] called it foolish, mocked me, and laughed. But who can doubt but that the Holy Ghost inspired me? Was he not operating with God’s power?  We can ask the same about others.  When God blesses those in other faiths to be healed in their acts of faith, for example a Catholic Guatemalan Mother Praying for her sick child calling down the powers of Heaven…. is that not Priesthood Power?  When Martin Luther and John Wesley and William Tyndale worked to reform their faith and make room for the restoration were they not in effect operating under Priesthood Power to do what they did? So yes, we as an organization have been blessed to be delegated by God to be guardians and administrators of the sacred and saving ordinances and have been blessed with offices within the Priesthood to administer those ordinances but consider this.  Every person who has taken on a mortal tabernacle on this earth receives those ordinances and every male receives a priesthood office.  Think about that every ordinance required will be given to every single son and daughter of God.  And While Priesthood offices to males seem exclusive to males in the Church, every male who has ever lived will receive a priesthood office.   Baptism may be the gate but all who have ever and will ever live pass through that gate.  When one ponders on the straight and narrow path I am left wondering if that path began in the premortal life.  That the only way we can step off the path for a time or forever is to stop trying and to personally choose to move away from God.  That as long as we are facing him and willing to be better and trying to be better that we, as in all of God’s children, are on the path. I hope as you ponder these thoughts you will see that God is working to bring all of his children home.  His gospel is not exclusionary.  Rather it is inclusive.  He is working both within the Church but also through many other people, organizations, and faiths to influence his children and to encourage them onward.  That God has provided a way for all of his children to come home.  God is working directly in the lives, of not .2% of his children, but 100% of his children equally manifesting his Power, Inspiration, Encouragement, Mercy, and Grace. Lastly may I revisit the question asked at the beginning.  If my chance at salvation is not increased by being a member of the Church in mortality then why the push to join and to remain in the Church?  I simply look at this questions from the perspective of a loving Father.  In the lives of my children, I want them to be happy, I want them to be supported by others.  I want them to be challenged and have opportunities to grow.  I also want, when those challenges get to difficult, for them to have others around them who care for them and think of them as brothers and sisters and who they can depend on to strengthen their feeble knees and Lift their hands when they are hanging down.  I can think of no organization on earth that does this as a whole better than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  For that reason I am honored to stand with the Saints and to serve them and be served.  I am honored to be a Mormon and ride out this mortal journey within this Church. The post 225: A Nuanced View of The Church and God’s Plan appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I talk a little about Eastern Philosophy and discussion of the Eastern Principle of “The Way”.  We Americanize Jesus and we Mormonize Jesus but we fail to Easternize him and understand him in the context of his culture.  When we do this we better understand what he is asking of us and why a flawed church is necessary.  Today I talk to those who have stepped away from the Church or are considering doing so.  I validate your pain, your tension, your frustration, and your disillusion but simply want to push back a little and ask if this is part of the “Narrow Path” that so few find. The post 224: Stepping off the Narrow Way appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Included here is the PDF Transcript of my July 2016 Sunstone Presentation: Handshakes and Drawn Swords.  The audio may be added at a future point.   PDF of the Presentation The post Sunstone Presentation July 2016: Handshakes & Drawn Swords appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down and explain why I maintain faith in Jesus Christ.  I share my grapple with the historical Jesus and why logically and spiritually I throw in with Jesus.  I hope this is helpful in your journey to lead with faith. youtube.com/watch?v=QeY8lndPsdE The post 223: Throwing In With Jesus appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Mormon Philosopher Adam Miller.  It’s his third time on the program and we talk about his newest book “Future Mormon”.  We talk about various aspects of the book which he wrote to his children and to future members of the Church.  What will the future of Mormonism look like?  Time will tell but till then we can hope in the next generation of Mormons’ ability to rise above the flaws of the present and carry us to a better Mormonism. You can purchase the two books mentioned in the podcast here: Future Mormon Nothing New Under The Sun The post 222: Adam Miller Future Mormon appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

  I sit down with Chris and Clay again and this time we are dissecting the First Vision and all that surrounds it.  We talk about the four First Hand accounts and their discrepancies as well as similarities.  We explore the historical context of each account, who the audience is, what factors into why Joseph perhaps shapes each account the way he does.  We talk about the valid reasons to see contradictions and why some lose faith but we also “lead with faith” showing that their are valid and serious ways to tackle this issue that actually build faith in Joseph and in the sincerity of his “First Vision”.   https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/history-circa-summer-1832#!/paperSummary/history-circa-summer-1832&p=1 http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/significance_1stvision_allen.pdf http://www.jamesjudithmcconkie.com/uploads/sites/2/3/8/0/8/38081735/dialogue_larson_another_look_at_joseph_smith’s_first_vision_(2).pdf http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2012/02/The_First_Vision.pdf http://889af4bde363a9603c4b-678500d623ddb25493e7806da7642fe7.r43.cf2.rackcdn.com/Hodges-%20Joseph%20Smith’s%20First%20Vision%20Accounts.pdf http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_first_vision.shtml http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/FirstVision-RelTolerance.pdf https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/064-22-29.pdf https://beggarsbread.org/2013/04/01/a-documented-history-of-joseph-smiths-first-vision/ https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/approaching-the-first-vision-saga/ The post 221: First Vision – The Founding Event Of The Restoration appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Patrick Mason, LDS scholar and author of the new book “Planted”.  We talk about doubt, the struggle that a faith transition is.  We talk about the messiness of issues and what is needed for us to better support our struggling brothers and sisters.  Patrick takes on all questions and pulls no punches.  This is as honest and authentic as anyone I have had on the podcast.  If you do nothing else, purchase planted and read chapter 1 and give it to those whose support you need.   From the first Chapter he deals empathetically and honestly with both the doubter and the person who loves and supports them.  What an amazing interview….. I hope you like it.   Purchase the Book Purchase the book ‘Planted’   Info on Patrick Mason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Q._Mason http://www.cgu.edu/pages/9241.asp http://claremontmormonstudies.org/chair/   Resources http://religionnews.com/2016/01/15/staying-mormon-planted-with-patrick-mason/ Planted: An Interview with Patrick Mason https://www.ldsliving.com/Surviving-a-Faith-Crisis-with-the-Help-of-Church-Members/s/80563 http://mi.byu.edu/planted-now-available/   The post 220: Patrick Mason – Planted appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with LDS Author Gerald Smith.  He has written the book “Schooling The Prophet”.   Often among scholars is the discussion of just how little Joseph uses The Book of Mormon in his sermons, his theology, and in the restoration movement generally.  Jerry helps us see that the Book of Mormon played a much larger role than generally thought.  He helps us see that within our Doctrine, Rituals, Priesthood, and in our theology there is evidence that the Book of Mormon played an important role. The post 219: Jerry Smith – Schooling Joseph appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This is the audio from a Gospel Essentials Class I taught on “Prophets”.  This lesson gives some insight into how to approach a nuanced lesson in a faithful way that also hits on the reality of the messiness of such topics. I hope you enjoy. It should be noted in my ward the Gospel Essentials class does not have investigators or recent converts.  If the class had those I would have approached the lesson much more basic. The post 218: Nuanced Lesson on Prophets appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we begin a series that examines Stages of Faith from the perspective of other Religious denominations and their religious leaders.  I tried to find every audio discussion of “Faith Transitions” based in some way on a Fowler “Faith Stage Theory”.  Heads up some of these religious leaders are still biased and imposing their conclusion on what this journey looks like but I still think you will find value and validation in hearing about “Faith development” and the insights that each episode will add. Stages of Faith Faith development, like other kinds of human development, follows a pretty well-known developmental path. Everyone’s on a journey of faith somewhere, from non-faith to more seasoned or mature faith. In this message, Dr. Henry Cloud talks about being able to identify where you or people you love are in that journey, so we can understand what the tasks are for each step and so we don’t misunderstand ourselves, others, or God. http://www.willowcreek.org/   The post 217: Stages of Faith Series 4: Willow Creek appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Guest host Suzette Smith sits down today to interview Rachel Hunt Steenblik about Heavenly Mother, The LDS Gospel Topics Essay on Mother in Heaven, and Mormon Feminism in general.  This is a great discussion that embraces that Mormonism has so much potential to expand in various directions including conversation of the feminine divine. https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Mother_in_Heaven http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2014/04/Kevin-Barney-MotherInHeaven.pdf http://religionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/06/Heavenly-Mother-Handout.pdf https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V41N04_133.pdf http://nathanrichardson.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2011/04/Nathan-Richardson-Heavenly-Mother-references.pdf https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/issues/133.pdf https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/081-49-51.pdf   The post 216: Heavenly Mother appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

In today’s episode two women Annikka and Charlene who are the believing spouses in a marriage where one side has serious doubts and went through a serious faith transition.  They share their thoughts and stories on what it means to be the believing spouse in a what becomes a mixed-faith marriage, the difficulties that arise, and how to support one another within them. The post 215: Supporting Spouses Of Those Who Doubt appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Alex Koritz.  We talk about his archaeologist general authority Grandfather, Mormon Archaeology, his Faith Journey, and his stint as the host of a Mormon Archaeology podcast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_R._Hunter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Holy_Stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Lunas_Decalogue_Stone The post 214: Alex Koritz: Faith Journey and Mormon Archeology appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we begin a series that examines Stages of Faith from the perspective of other Religious denominations and their religious leaders.  I tried to find every audio discussion of “Faith Transitions” based in some way on a Fowler “Faith Stage Theory”.  Heads up some of these religious leaders are still biased and imposing their conclusion on what this journey looks like but I still think you will find value and validation in hearing about “Faith development” and the insights that each episode will add. this episode – Paul D. Anderson – Stages of Faith (& Doubt) Grace Valley Fellowship [email protected] 610-935-7960 www.gvfonline.org   The post 213: Stages of Faith Series 3: Grace Valley appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today’s episode deals with Stewardship.  This word is very strictly defined in Mormonism and it is used to draw lots of lines in the sand separating the faithful from the unfaithful, the righteous from the unrighteous.  Yet While leaders have drawn very direct lines, we look today to see if scripture upholds such definitive lines.   I hope you enjoy! The post 212: Rethinking Stewardship appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

The Book of Mormon is a fraud you say?  Joseph Made it up or stole the ideas from someone else?  If only it were that simple.  Today I sit down with two friends, Chris and Clay.  We talk about ways in which to corroborate a fraudulent narrative of the Book of Mormon.  Who could have been involved and how the narrative would have to flow based on who is in on it and who is being duped along with what it should look like if Joseph is truly plagiarizing sources to create a fictional work.  Is “The Book of Mormon” a fake?  Maybe… that conclusion certainly is reasonable.  Yet, as we explore in today’s episode, to create a coherent historical narrative that explains the ins and outs of how such a hoax could be pulled off seems to have just as many issues if not more than simply believing in the divine nature of the book.  The witnesses, Emma, Rigdon, Spaulding, View of the Hebrews, Late War, Savant, Genius, Photographic memory, and everything in between is explored in just over an hour……..  Is there room for faith?……  the choice was always yours! The post 211: Fraudulent Narrative of the Book of Mormon appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we begin a series that examines Stages of Faith from the perspective of other Religious denominations and their religious leaders.  I tried to find every audio discussion of “Faith Transitions” based in some way on a Fowler “Faith Stage Theory”.  Heads up some of these religious leaders are still biased and imposing their conclusion on what this journey looks like but I still think you will find value and validation in hearing about “Faith development” and the insights that each episode will add. In Part we visit a sermon from the Covenant Church and Pastor Mike Hayes’ teaching on the book of Romans; Pastor John shares with us the 4 stages of faith that Abraham exhibited that set belief as what considered him righteous. The post 210: Stages of Faith Series 2: Covenant Church appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This is the Sacrament talk I delivered on April 24, 2016 in my home ward.  I tried to show that testimony is more than knowing and in all its forms it should be honored.  I end bearing my testimony to show this nuance in action. Outline of the Talk In our faith we value our testimonies.  We value them so much that we set aside 1 week a month as sacred time to express those testimonies. How do we define a testimony and what is an acceptable testimony to have? concede up front that I am limited by the weakness of my own language as D&C 1 points out God speaks to us in the weakness of our own language What is a testimony? (Older Definition) A testimony is a spiritual witness given by the Holy Ghost. The foundation of a testimony is the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves His children; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God who was called to restore the gospel; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior’s true Church on the earth; and that the Church is led by a living prophet today. vs (newer Definition) A Testimony Is a Conviction, Knowledge, or Belief in a Truth “Pure testimony” (Alma 4:19) begins with pure belief. Your testimony is a spiritual witness of what you believe or know to be true (see D&C 80:4). When you share your testimony, the purest and most powerful parts will come from words like know, believe, and testify.  Even if you don’t know right now if everything about the Church is true, Heavenly Father will bless you and help you learn as long as you have a righteous desire to know and you sincerely try to learn. Notice how much softer more inclusive the newer definition is knowing – D&C 46 – to some it is given to know that Jesus is the christ There are many examples of those who know through out the scriptures.  To know is a gift from God.  Knowing is certainty and it is to have overwhelming evidence to back up faith – Hebrews 11:1, alma 32 is to hope in things that are true but of which the evidence is unseen alma begins to preach about the value of faith vs knowing and he begins to speculate that Faith is actually greater than knowing “blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.”…..  is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.” Belief – 26 ¶And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Hope – Hope is to continue on in spite of worry and concern pressing against such. Romans 8:24 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Romans 5:5 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Christ seems to honor those who take a ” leap of faith” without knowing.  For those who don’t know and “only believe” Christ seems to be saying that such is praiseworthy and is to be honored. some go from feeling they have a “knowing” testimony to one of these other types and others start at hope and find themselves one day knowing.  our faith journies are individual and each stage is a gift from God not to be cast aside by ourselves or mocked by others whether one’s testimony is knowing, or faith, or belief, or perhaps hope it should be honored as a gift from god and we should spend little time gauging which is superior. A 14-year-old boy recently said to me a little hesitantly, “Brother Holland, I can’t say yet that I know the Church is true, but I believe it is.” I hugged that boy until his eyes bulged out. I told him with all the fervor of my soul that belief is a precious word, an even more precious act, and he need never apologize for “only believing.” I told him that Christ Himself said, “Be not afraid, only believe,”  –  There are many in our faith who don’t know.  I add my heartfelt assurance to that of Elder hollands.  Belief is precious.  And Hope is precious too If you cannot muster faith right now, begin with hope.  If you cannot say you know God is there, you can hope that He is. You can desire to believe.  That is enough to start. some quotes within our faith have taught where there is faith there can be no doubt.  May I offer the thought that for some of us doubt is the other side of the coin of faith.  to have faith is to move forward towards Christ in spite of doubt.  In spite of troubling thoughts, worries, and questions. While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? 36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. Testimony displaying all 4 in in application KNOW The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true in that applying its principles bear fruit in my life and the lives of others with an almost certainty in God as a loving heavenly father FAITH In the Lord Jesus Christ.  I do not know if he was historical or not but I can witness that I have been changed by his grace and cleansed by his mercy. in his atonement in the Book of Mormon as scripture in that applying its principles have and continue to bless my life BELIEVE in the restoration HOPE the Church is true that joseph smith was a prophet that families are together forever And I try to live my life true to my knowledge, faith, beliefs, and hope ITNOJCA The post 209: Sacrament Talk April 2016 Testimonies appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we begin a series that examines Stages of Faith from the perspective of other Religious denominations and their religious leaders.  I tried to find every audio discussion of “Faith Transitions” based in some way on a Fowler “Faith Stage Theory”.  Heads up some of these religious leaders are still biased and imposing their conclusion on what this journey looks like but I still think you will find value and validation in hearing about “Faith development” and the insights that each episode will add. Today we start out with a brilliant one.  This is from the radio program “Revolutionary Spirituality” Marj Johnston is the Assistant Pastor at Westminster Congregational United Church of Christ in Spokane, Wa. In a return visit to the program, we will be discussing James Fowler’s book – Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning. This show originally aired on 11/16/09. Contact Information –www.westminsterucc.org or (509)-624-1366. The post 208: Stages of Faith Series 1: Revolutionary Spirituality appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we jump back into the Book of Mormon, right to the beginning….. with Nephi.  We use his story to demonstrate that even men of God shift in their faith and beliefs, scriptural characters are not stagnant, the story is not always what we think it is, and most importantly the scriptures truly do point to Christ and his Grace & Mercy. The post 207: Nephi’s Faith Transition appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we talk about the quote from Conference from Elder Oaks Some of this opposition even comes from Church members. Some who use personal reasoning or wisdom to resist prophetic direction give themselves a label borrowed from elected bodies—“the loyal opposition.” However appropriate for a democracy, there is no warrant for this concept in the government of God’s kingdom, where questions are honored but opposition is not (see Matthew 26:24). We dissect why I believe Loyal Opposition is Theologically, Historically, Doctrinally, and Logically part of God’s Kingdom. For those who listen to this episode and see me as critical.  Please take my episode as a question to be honored.  How can we brush aside Loyal opposition when it is so deeply rooted in our Church and no one is truly honoring our questions?   The post 206: Loyal Opposition appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we had hoped to start a 3 part series on tithing.  In this first part we focus on validating 12 reasons why SURPLUS is the most valid interpretation of “What income should I pay 10% on?” (Surplus, Net, or Gross).  We had planned to do two more parts where in part two we defend NET and in part three defend GROSS but that was cut short.  Please Stay till the very end to see why this had to be cut short.  Below are resources as you prayerfully make your own decision on what is a Fair and Honest Tithe!!!!  As for me, I have been paying on surplus for 2 years now and that decision came after much prayer and discussion with my Father in Heaven.  I am not imposing my interpretation on others, in fact I feel that it is very possible for God to give others a different answer then he gave me.  This is why I value the First Presidency when they taught “No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/lds-tithing-in-a-word/ http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/01/tithing-and-the-poor/ https://mormonsundayschool.org/044-tithes-and-fasting-doctrine-covenants-and-church-history/ http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/2010/12/lds-history-summary.html https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2007/10/28/the-law-of-tithing-part-three/   1.) “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor) – quotes comes post end of consecration and after law of tithing is revealed 2.) section 119 refers to surplus 3.) Encyclopedia of Mormonism on tithing as it refers to section 119 as the Lord’s new law of tithing and not consecration and speaks directly of surplus. 4.) JST of Genesis 14 – “Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.” JST Genesis 14:39. (Emphasis added.) 5.) The actual words Lorenzo Snow used when he went to St. George to deliver his address on tithing – (“Gen Conf. 1899) “I pray that every man, woman, and child [who has means] shall pay one tenth of their income astithing.” – When net or gross are used everyone has means with almost no exception 6.) The church’s Doctrine – “For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income.No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – while not supporting surplus as the right conclusion it certainly doesn’t exclude it. It also begs the question why the Church officially chooses not to define tithing beyond this if Surplus is a pernicious lie. 7.) the handbook – “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all theirinterest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970;see also D&C 119:4) same as number 6 8.) “The Lord’s Tenth, Pamphlet, 1968” THE TITHE AS A RENTAL As the matter presents itself to my mind, it is as though there had been a contract made between myself and the Lord, and that in effect He had said to me: “You have need of many things in this world — food, clothing, and shelter for your family and yourself, the common comforts of life, and the things that shall be conducive to refinement, to development, to righteous enjoyment. You desire material possessions to use for the assistance of others, and thereby gain greater blessings for yourself and yours. Now, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase in substance and possessions; you will have your losses, as well as your gains; you will have your periods of trouble as well as your times of peace. Some years, will be years of plenty unto you, and others will be years of scarcity, And, now, instead of doing as mortal landlords do — require you to contract with them to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be — you shall pay me not in advance, but when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then you can afford to pay me a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then you shall pay me less; and should it be that you are reduced to the utmost penury so that/you have nothing coming in, you will pay me nothing.” Talmadge can be seen as defending all three and while some may see Gross as the conclusion here I post it anyway as there are phrases used that seem to indicate other options such as net or surplus as well as Talmadge first speaks of one’s needs and then speaks of not paying in advance but only once one knows whether one has an abundance or a scarcity. (which contradicts some modern leaders) I admit #8 is the weakest of the quotes but share it here for others to read 9.) “In more recent times the Church has not called upon the members to give all their SURPLUS property to the Church, but it has been the requirement according to the covenant, that they PAY THE TENTH.” (Emphases added. Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 3: 120.). Without adding tenth of Gross, any person listening to this originally or reading it is left to assume tenth of one’s surplus. (the original law was to give one tenth of one’s surplus properties and then a tenth of one’s surplus ever after… it seems most reasonable that as the Church got into better financial shape it simply removed the first part of one’s surplus properties when one entered and members were now only required to pay the tenth (which was surplus based on D&C 119 10.) Heb 7:4 – “Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.” 11.) the 1970 FP letter. It is a bit of a sleight of hand. The Lord never mentions the word “income” in the revelation(119), but only surplus and interest. “Income” is mans addition. The FP letter should read, “For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood by us without any formal revelation as income. 12.) In discussing consecration, the Lord defines surplus as giving “more then is necessary for their support” (D&C 42:33). This was always curious to me. If tithing is a lesser law, why does it demand more of your money (if using the gross or net model) than does consecration (surplus). It seems like if consecration is the goal, surplus, and tithing is a lesser law, tithing should be 10% of surplus, not gross or net, which could be much more than a persons surplus. 13.) There is also the famous three words removed from the Lorenzo Snow quote in the church manual, “who has means” “I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing.” 14.) In a Letter from Heber C. Kimball to his wife Vilate and subsequently reprinted in Elders’ Journal (Oct 1837) pp.4-7 detailing the early work and organisation of the church in the Lanchashire area, 1837: Preston, Lancashire, England, September 2, 1837 My Dear Companion [Vilate Kimball], “….We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel. There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.” Heber is suggesting those priests who are skimming off the top are practicing priestcraft. 15.) In “A Companion to your Study of the Doctrine & Covenants” written by Ludlow, 1978, in the section marked 119 you will read the following: “I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop” Let us consider for a moment this word ‘SURPLUS.’ What does it mean when applied to a man and his property? SURPLUS CANNOT MEAN THAT WHICH IS INDISPENSABLY NECESSARY FOR ANY GIVEN PURPOSE, BUT WHAT REMAINS AFTER SUPPLYING WHAT IS NEEDED FOR THAT PURPOSE. Is not the first and most necessary use of a man’s property that he feed, clothe and provide a home for himself and family! . . . WAS NOT ‘SURPLUS PROPERTY,’ THAT WHICH WAS OVER AND ABOVE A COMFORTABLE AND NECESSARY SUBSTANCE? In the light of what had transpired and of subsequent events, what else could it mean? CAN WE TAKE ANY OTHER VIEW OF IT WHEN WE CONSIDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH IT WAS GIVEN IN FAR WEST, IN JULY, 1838? “I have been unable in studying this subject to find any other definition of the term ‘SURPLUS,’ as used in this revelation, than the one I have just given. I find that it was so understood and recorded by the Bishops and people in those days, AS WELL AS BY THE PROPHET JOSEPH HIMSELF, WHO WAS UNQUESTIONABLY THE ABLEST AND BEST EXPONENT OF THIS REVELATION.” (Emphasis added, Franklin D. Richards, Nov. 6, 1882. JD 23:313.) 16.) President David O. McKay has this explanation of D&C 119: The law of tithing as now understood and practiced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was given by revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith in response to a prayer in which the Prophet sought the Lord to know “how much he required of the properties of the people for a tithing.” The Lord answered saying, the “beginning” of tithing consisted first of “all the surplus property,” and named the specific purposes for which this “surplus property” should be used. “After that” tithing consists “of one-tenth of all the interest annually; and this,” he continued, “shall be a standing law unto them forever.” (See D. & C. 119.) reference should actually be “David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, p.197.”   17.) “If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6.— thus you see the plan.” Bishop Partridge   18.) Howard W. Hunter Burton, ed., We Believe, Tithing The law is simply stated as “one-tenth of all their interest.” Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law “forever” as has been in the past. CR1964Apr:35 The post 205: Tithing Part 1- Surplus appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we start a new series hosted by Alex Koritz former podcast host for “Mormon Archaeology”.  Today he discusses the Michigan Relics.  Alex discusses their discovery, the debate over their authenticity, and the impact this item has had in both within archaeology generally and specifically within Mormonism.  We are so excited to have Alex take us through this series and hope you enjoy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_relics http://michiganrelics.com/ http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/science/2009/07/12/light.html http://chadstuemke.com/michigan-relics/ http://archive.archaeology.org/0405/reviews/michigan.html The post 204: The Michigan Artifacts with Alex Koritz appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we talk about an episode few in the Church know about… the life and Disciplinary trial of former Apostle John W. Taylor. Brother Taylor continued polygamy after the 1890 manifesto and even after the 1904 second manifesto and today we talk about his trial searching for insights into this episode in Church history of “Curious Workmanship” https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/MF0193.pdf http://www.mormonwiki.com/John_W._Taylor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Taylor_(Mormon) http://www.gapages.com/taylojw1.htm Correlation: An Uncorrelated History (Part 4 — John W. Taylor, Excommunicated) The post 203: The Life and Trial of John W. Taylor appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I read from my favorite “Faith Stage Theory” books and end by talking about what to look for in a “safe” person.  These books are so helpful that I would recommend them to anyone going through a faith transition.. Faith Shift by Kathy Escobar The Critical Journey by Janet Hagberg and Robert Guelich Faith Beyond Belief by Margaret Placentra Johnston Navigating a Mormon Faith Crisis by Thoma Wirthlin McConkie Searching For Sunday by Rachel Held Evans The post 202: The Language of Transition appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we sit down with LDS author Robert Reynolds.  He has written the book “Unstuck” – How The Savior Frees Us From Our Favorite Sins .  We talk about letting go of trying to “work our way to heaven” and instead focus on reliance on Christ and his grace.  We talk about willingness to be on the path and how to maintain this grace centered connection. Purchase the Book here Deseret News Article on Robert and the book Unstuck   The post 201: Robert Reynolds: Unstuck appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I wanted to reach out to the listener in the dark part of their faith transition.  I wanted to share with you things I have found helpful and things I think you would benefit from thinking about.  I hope these are helpful and welcome your feedback.  God bless you and may the Lord warm your shoulders.   The post 200: Finding Your Truth in your Transition appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I wrestle with the recent commentary of Elder Bednar on Homosexuality. I am sorry if I am too harsh or if my criticisms are unfair. I welcome anyone in Church authority to sit down with me and others and work through the data and questions that are out there that no one in leadership is addressing. These are begging to be asked. The Church’s answers and commentary are insufficient on this issue and it feels that the real questions begging to be asked are being ignored or changed. The post 199: Are There Homosexuals in Heaven appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I share my perspective on various elements of my testimony…… Joseph Smith, Prophets, Scripture, Truth, Temples, Priesthood, Ordinances, as well as God and Christ and then I finish bearing my testimony as it stands today. The post 198: My Testimony appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I join Seth Bryant, Community of Christ Pastor and Seventy, to talk about Faithful Listening.  We talk today about how to communicate to those who either hold different perspectives within the same faith or a completely different faith altogether.   What is helpful and what isn’t.  Thanks for listening.     The post 197: Talking Faithfully: Seth Bryant & Bill Reel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Daniel Parkinson MD to discuss the biology of Homosexuality.  Daniel is a psychiatrist and is well informed on the biological research on homosexuality.  Today we talk about what happens during the development of the fetus that leads to atypical results.  We also visit the outward biological signs that show us that being gay is not a choice and almost assuredly is decided by the time the birth of the child occurs.  I am hopeful this will be an episode that you as listeners will feel comfortable sharing with your parents, friends, siblings, and church leaders. http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/ https://www.genderspectrum.org/ https://mormonsandgays.org http://ldswalkwithyou.org/ Please download the Family Acceptance Project booklet that we written specifically for LDS members. They require an email for one follow-up survey, and that is the only time they will contact you. http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/family-education-booklet-lds   The post 196: The Biology of Homosexuality appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we sit down with Kathy Escobar author of Faith Shift.  We talk about the disassembling of faith and all the emotion that comes with it.  She asks about my story and we tie it to various chapters of the book.  I can’t say enough about this book and its contents.  It felt like a dear friend.  It offered me and can offer you a mentoring resource through your faith transition.   The post 195: Kathy Escobar appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

On Sunday January 24th I will have given a sacrament talk on the subject of the atonement.  I have released an audio rehearsal of that talk the night before giving it.  This is tied and hence repeats much of what is said in the premium episode “Nephi’s Faith Transition” but also covers other ground.  I hope you enjoy and can feel my testimony of Christ come through!  May the Lord warm your shoulders!!! The post 194: Trust in the Dual Power of The Atonement appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we sit down and discuss the word CHURCH.  How is it used in Christian scripture?  How is it used in Restoration scripture?  Is it possible we have misunderstood this word?  Today I make the argument that we have.  That this is one more point we may have overstated and overreached.  While we seem to shout from the rooftops a narrow view of Mormonism, I hope we each begin to grasp the expansiveness and inclusiveness actually found in LDS Doctrine.  Thanks for listening. The post 192: The Collective Church appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

As part of our Perspectives Series, we sat down with LDS author Nanacy Phippen Browne.  She makes her way through the gauntlet of what is a prophet, what does the “Church is True” mean as well as her thoughts on the Book of Mormon, Scripture in general, and her take on issues like the LGBT issue. The post 191: Perspectives: Nancy Phippen Browne appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.