Mormonism Live! Archives - Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup

What if the harm didn’t start with a crisis… but with what you were taught as a child? In this episode of Mormonism Live, we sit down with researcher and clinician Samuel Clemens, PhD, LCSW, to unpack his groundbreaking study on religious trauma among former Latter-day Saints—particularly those who identify as sexual minorities. This isn’t… Read More »The Hidden Cost of Mormon Belief: Conditioned From Childhood The post The Hidden Cost of Mormon Belief: Conditioned From Childhood appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Join Bill Reel and RFM as we cue up the most scintillating and awe-inspiring moments from the April 2026 General Conference! You are sure to have a good time! The post Apostles Say The Darndest Things! appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

One LDS couple shares their experience about how the LDS Church tries to prevent members from sharing uncomfortable truths with each other. Chapters 5:00 Guest introduction 15:00 The video that started it all 24:00 Voting opposed 44:00 Fast & Testimony Meeting 50:00 Canceling church 58:00 Chatbot and circular reasoning 59:30 Aftermath of the testimony meeting 1:02:30 The nightmare 1:05:00 Email from the Bishop 1:15:15 Stake President meets him in the parking lot 1:17:00 Another fast & testimony meeting 1:37:25 The Cops show up at the house 1:50:00 A Cowardly Letter from Kirton McConkie 2:03:45 The Texts 2:17:15 In Closing 2:26:00 Calls Episodes mentioned: The Rules of the Game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c4md93lOm8 Why Mormons Are So Fake: Radio Free Mormon: 079: Why Are Mormons So Fake – Radio Free Mormon LDS AI Chat: LDSBot.com ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! Mormon Discussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Shunning By Decree: Mormonism LIVE: 145 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Embark with “Mormonism Live” on a thought-provoking journey with its hosts Bill Reel and RFM in their podcast, “Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud?” as they investigate the LDS Church Truth claims, how those claims run into a wall of contradictions, and how the LDS Church simply moved the goalposts so as to make Mormonism indiscernible from a fraud. This podcast sheds light on the problematic issues that have cast shadows of doubt upon the LDS faithful as Bill Reel and RFM take you on a captivating exploration of the Church’s ever-evolving framing of these issues. Discover how, when faced with the doubts and faith crises of LDS believers, the Church and its apologists have skillfully retreated on each issue, artfully crafting new narratives that blur the line between truth and potential fraud. The podcast unravels Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church’s truth claims, examining the complex history that surrounds the foundational beliefs of the LDS faith. In “Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud?” you’ll gain a deeper understanding of the delicate balance between faith and skepticism within the LDS community. Join us as we navigate the intricate landscape of Mormonism, questioning the past while seeking to uncover the truth in the present. RESOURCES:  Mormon quotes about Adam God theory (mormonthink.com) The post Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud? [How You Can Know] ML:144 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Dr. John Lundwall explains how the Book of Mormon not only contains anachronisms, but is actually an anachronism itself. Chapters 08:00 John’s intro 10:10 Orality & Literacy 11:12 Entire presentation summarized in one slide 23:00 Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man 24:00 The Medium is the message 27:15 Printing Press as Medium 32:00 Oral and Literate Mediums 41:20 Oral Imprinting Press 52:30 Secondary Orality 57:15 Metal Plates: History or Ritual? 58:00 Literate thinking 1:00:00 Mythologizing History 1:04:30 Evolution of Religion 1:07:00 Evolution of the Word 1:20:00 Joseph Smith Assumes History is Literate 1:31:30 Nephite & Lamanite Civilizations are Fully Literate ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Does the Book of Mormon Refute Itself ?: ML: 143 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

In this episode, we delve deep into the controversial history of the LDS (Latter-day Saints) Church’s priesthood ban, shedding light on the untold truths and deceptions that shaped this discriminatory practice. From its mysterious origins to its lasting impact, we uncover a story that challenges the foundation of faith and reveals the complex interplay of faith, culture, and racism. RESOURCES: Lester Bush’s original Article – https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V08N01_13.pdf Lester Bush – https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=mormonhistory pg 229 https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=arrington_stwriting  Elder Oaks “Be One Celebration” – https://youtu.be/ZXrlHULMFcE  Bruce R McConkie “All Are Alike unto God” – https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/alike-unto-god/ Bruce R. McConkie April 1980 “The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/04/the-coming-tests-and-trials-and-glory?lang=eng Randy Bott – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_L._Bott Official Statement of the Church https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/race-church  Elder Holland – https://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html 2007  “The Mormons” Abraham 1: 21-22, 26-27 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/abr/1?lang=eng  Moses Chapter 7: 6-8 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/7?lang=eng  Joseph Smith “Messenger & Advocate – pg 289 https://archive.org/details/latterdaysaintsm01unse/page/n303/mode/2up   Brigham Young  address before the legislative assembly of the Territory of Utah on January 6, 1852 https://archive.org/details/CR100317B0001F0017/mode/2up https://www.theroot.com/do-most-whites-have-traces-of-african-dna-as-i-do-1790874465  https://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7431391/guess-where-white-americans-have-the-most-african-ancestry  Dr Lowry Nelson Correspondence – https://www.mormonstories.org/lowry-nelson/ Race and The Priesthood Gospel Topic Essay https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng  1969 First Presidency Letter – http://exhibits.usu.edu/files/original/aecf91ae5ab5e2af3892cd200971fd39.pdf Missed In Sunday School – https://missedinsunday.com/category/memes/race/  Brigham Young’s Prophecy – https://jod.mrm.org/2/136  Racist LDS Teacings – https://bib.irr.org/brigham-young-on-race-later-comments  ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Prophetic Racism – From Doctrine to Disavowed Theories | Mormonism Live 142 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Dismantling Brian Hales’ Book of Mormon Defense: ML: 141 In this episode, hosts RFM and Bill Reel team up with LDS scholar Dan Vogel to critically examine the arguments put forth by LDS apologist Brian Hales in defense of the Book of Mormon’s authenticity. They discuss Hales’ reasons and defenses of why the BOM can’t possibly be a work of fiction authored without God’s involvement. The conversation offers a scholarly exploration of the strengths and weaknesses of Hales’ defense, encouraging listeners to engage in thoughtful analysis of the Book of Mormon’s origins. RESOURCES: https://www.rickgrunder.com/parallels/mp193.pdf https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/paul-vs-moroni/ https://missedinsunday.com/memes/other/adamic-language/ https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/plagiarism-in-book-of-mormon/ https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/king-james-bible/ http://www.fullerconsideration.com/TempleNameOracle/ https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/mark-16/ ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ___________________ The post Dismantling Brian Hales’ Book of Mormon Defense: Mormonism LIVE: 141 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Brian Hales & The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book Review: ML: 140 We lost Dan due to storms affecting his internet connection, so join us next week for part 2! In this week’s episode, Mormon apologist Brian Hales enters the scene to deliver a 2-star review of “Charisma under Pressure,” the groundbreaking book by Mormon critic Dan Vogel. As the battle of perspectives unfolds, it becomes apparent that Brian’s review may not be all it seems, raising questions about intellectual honesty and genuine consideration. While giving us all pause to consider the believing mindset and church loyalty of its apologists while also considering the fine line between passionate belief and intentional misleading. Chapters 09:00 The Review 17:30 Brian Hales by the numbers 23:25 The first paragraph 28:00 Brian makes the caricatures 32:30 Second paragraph 34:15 God of the (dictation) gap 48:00 RFM on the revelations Joseph also got 50:00 BoM a “complex” book 1:08:45 Joseph’s Composition and Oratory skills 1:27:45 Bill goes over proof he is a liar 1:30:45 Caller: Brian, words aren’t miracles 1:39:20 NaNoWriMo 1:45:25 Caller: I wrote my 77,000 Master’s thesis as a mom of 5 in two months ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ___________________ The post Brian Hales & The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book Review Pt 1: ML: 140 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Step off the beaten path of Mormon history and venture into the realm of relics & artifacts that shed light on lesser-known aspects of the Mormon faith. Delve into the enigmatic history of handkerchiefs, coffin canes, along with other obscure artifacts that whisper compelling tales from the annals of Mormon History. Chapters: 13:00 Zelph Arrowhead 24:00ish Everything Joseph trips over ends up supremely significant 26:00 Masonic Apron 27:40 Joseph’s Red Silk Handkerchief 31:20 Joseph Smith Nauvoo Legion Attire 32:45 Joseph’s Pepperbox Pistol 34:30 Hyrum’s clothing at Martyrdom and the box the plates were stored in 37:10 Coffin Canes 54:00 David Whitmer Chest & Martin Harris Leather Wallet 54:45 John Taylor Watch 57:45 Mormon Gold Coins 59:00 They are substandard 01:03:10 Hyrum Smith’s Sunglasses 01:03:55 Book of Abraham Printing Plates 01:11:10 Oliver Cowdery’s Rod of Aaron 01:20:00 James Rafael update 01:26:50 Caller: Captain Moroni 01:32:30 Caller: Kate on Nauvoo pageant ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Obscure Mormon Artifacts: Mormonism Live: 139 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

RFM and Bill Reel are joined by Spencer who shares the latest from the Widows Mite Report (https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/) and share their latest reveal calling into question the perception that the Deseret Mutual Benefit Administration (DMBA) was at the same time Ensign Peak was being investigated, allegedly doing the same funny business as Ensign Peak was in not filing 13F forms disclosing investment assets. Spencer runs us through the data and informs us that an anonymous person has filed complaints with the SEC. He shows that Beneficial Life may have also been doing the same thing. We are informed that a familiar face was on the board of DMBA and we also learn about “Plan Z”. While the Church has considered the SEC escapade closed, it appears that these prophets may not have seen around corners. Widow’s Mite Report on the DMBA – https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/dmba/ LDS Charities Report showing Roger Clarke on the board – https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/ldsc/ SEC Report – https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf Church’s official Response to previous infraction – https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement Mormonism Live covering the SEC scandal – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81zb4ZQx6gM The post Mormon Corporate Corruption: Mormonism LIVE: 138 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Join us on a captivating episode as we explore the multifaceted life of Samuel Brannan, a charismatic leader who played a pivotal role in both in Mormonism and the California Gold Rush. We trace Brannan’s journey from his membership in Mormonism, to his leading a group of Mormon pioneers on the perilous voyage of the Brooklyn, and his transformation into a savvy businessman and perhaps California’s first millionaire. Learn about the voyage of the Brooklyn as we examine the motivations behind this perilous journey, tracing it back to the religious aspirations of the Mormon community at the time. Delve into the trials and triumphs faced by the passengers, the challenges of sea travel during that era, and the subsequent impact of the voyage on the development of Mormon settlements in California. We discuss Brannan and the Mormons arrival in California, and Brannan’s subsequent involvement in the booming industry around the California Gold Rush. Discover the complex legacy of Samuel Brannan, whose actions left an indelible mark on both religious and economic landscapes. This episode uncovers the unique intersection of faith, manifest destiny, and migration in American history. RESOURCES: Voyage of the Brooklyn Saints – Wikipedia Mormon pioneers – Wikipedia   History of Ship Brooklyn Celebrated in California (churchofjesuschrist.org)   Ship Brooklyn | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation   Quest to Find the Painting of the Ship Brooklyn (familysearch.org)   Brooklyn, California – Wikipedia   Ship Brooklyn • FamilySearch   https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/21/3/46/1959236/45228009.pdf    True Community: Latter-day Saints in San Bernardino, 1851–1857 (churchofjesuschrist.org)   John M. Horner – Wikipedia   Ship Brooklyn Historical Marker (hmdb.org)   California’s Pioneer Era 1846-1886 | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation   California Beginnings: 1846 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)   LDS Church in California | ChurchOfJesusChristWikia | Fandom   Mormon Pioneers 1846 ship Brooklyn (geni.com)   So. Cal. Settlers | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation   Brooklyn – Oakland – LocalWiki   California Beginnings: 1846 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)   The Mormon Battalion: Recent discoveries help unravel mysteries after 175 years – LDS Living   Samuel Brannan and the Gold Rush Historical Marker (hmdb.org)   Samuel Brannan – Wikipedia   Latter-day Scoundrel Sam Brannan (historynet.com)   Thomas Rhoads | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation   Clarksville | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation   The San Bernardino Colony: 1851–57 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)   When Mormons dominated Yerba Buena (sfgate.com)   New Hope | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation   WT-Guide-to-Mormon-Historical-Sites.pdf (museumoflocalhistory.org)   The Mormon Ship Brooklyn Sailing into 1800s San Francisco – The Maritime Heritage Project   Mormon Trails (churchofjesuschrist.org)   California Living History | Welcome…   California, Pioneer Settlements in – The Encyclopedia of Mormonism (byu.edu)   Picturing history: Sam Brannan and the Brooklyn – Deseret News   The Saga of the Brooklyn: 1845–46 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)   Samuel Brannan – Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion – MormonWiki   viewcontent.cgi (byu.edu)   PAGE ONE — S.F.’s Devilish Mormon Finally Gets His Due (sfgate.com)   Herald of the Gold Rush: Sam Brannan on JSTOR   Samuel “Sam” Brannan (1819-1889) – Find a Grave Memorial   https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dKtGvl-urzU/YLxqHGhBGtI/AAAAAAAAIlA/cXCAAxPk03ACy4EiMKdoXLc5zKpF2H3AACLcBGAsYHQ/s1950/Brannan%2Bcal.jpg  Samuel Brannan – The First Millionaire of the West | Econproph [U.S. Economic History] https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/9649/rec/3 https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/9668/rec/3 ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Mormon to Millionaire: Sam Brannan & the Brooklyn: Mormonism LIVE: 137 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

In this episode of Mormonism LIVE we delve into the original research of this little known episode in Church history involving the Theatre, Temple Endowments, and a Ouija board Message leading to baptisms. RESOURCES: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ARFAX-zs-C36Wgs3GYcCO8kPpis1MnWA/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ucVVdrjBDAJwiIns-po2_EXM7d9u_R01/view?pli=1 ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P OurPlatforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ___________________ The post Ouija Board Baptisms: Mormonism LIVE!: 136 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Join us as we explore the intriguing viewpoints of Professor Thomas Wayment and podcaster Rick Bennett, who present perspectives that deviate from past LDS theology regarding the King James Bible (KJV) and the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). We analyze their claims, examining the ways in which their perspectives challenge traditional understandings of these revered texts within the context of Latter-Day Saint belief. Through this exploration, we uncover the complex interplay between scholarship, personal interpretations, and the evolving landscape of Mormon theology. Synopsis of the JST Issue The Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible has held a significant place within the beliefs and teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Until the present moment, the JST was commonly understood as an effort by Joseph Smith to restore the Bible to its original form, with the belief that Smith received divine guidance and inspiration during the translation process. In recent years, there have been discussions among scholars and within some segments of the LDS community regarding the nature and purpose of the JST. Most scholars and critics have argued that the JST does not align with modern biblical scholarship or textual criticism, challenging the notion of it being a restoration of the original Bible. As a result of these scholarly discussions and changing perspectives, Scholars and even unofficial LDS Church Channels are shifting their perspective to downplaying and reducing the JST to a flawed Bible commentary rather than a true restoration to its ancient form via revelation. Quotes that Show how the JST was previously defined Book Of Mormon 1st Nephi 13: 26-36“26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. 27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. 28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. 29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. 30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren. 31 Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren. 32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. 33 Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment. 34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. 35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb. 36 And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation. More than once, the Book of Mormon text indicated that “many plain and precious parts” of the Bible had been lost. In the summer of 1830, just a few short months after the Book of Mormon was published, Joseph Smith began a new translation of the Bible intended to restore some of those plain and precious parts. This effort defied the prevailing opinion of the day that the Bible contained the inerrant word of God as contained in the revered text of the King James Version…But the translation also had a significant influence on the Church in the way it shaped the content of the Doctrine and Covenants. More than half of the current Doctrine and Covenants consists of revelations received during the three-year period in which Joseph Smith labored over the Bible translation. Many revelations were received as direct answers to questions Joseph was inspired to ask as his understanding of the gospel expanded during the effort to restore plain and precious parts of the Bible. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/revelations-in-context/joseph-smiths-bible-translation?lang=eng “Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term “Heaven,” as intended for the Saints’ eternal home must include more kingdoms than one.” – Joseph SmithHistory of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I, 245 https://byustudies.byu.edu/?post_type=online_chapters&p=74762 “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” – Joseph Smith (TPJS, p. 327) This is substantially beyond the usual meaning of “translation“. When he said the Bible was not translated correctly, he not only was referring to the difficulties of rendering the Bible into another language but he was also observing that the manuscripts containing the text of the Bible have suffered at the hands of editors, copyists, and revisionists through centuries of transmission. Thus, the available texts of the Bible are neither as complete nor as accurate as when first written. When he began his work in 1830, Joseph Smith did not have a knowledge of biblical languages. His translation was not done in the usual manner of a scholar, but was a revelatory experience using only an English text. He did not leave a description of the translating process, but it appears that he would read from the KJV and dictate revisions to a scribe.– Encyclopedia of Mormonismhttps://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Joseph_Smith_Translation_of_the_Bible_(JST) May I be pardoned if I say that negative attitudes and feelings about the Joseph Smith Translation are simply part of the devil’s program to keep the word of truth from the children of men. – Bruce R. McConkie – BYU Religious Studies Center, 1985 Of course the revealed changes made by Joseph Smith are true—as much so as anything in the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants. Of course we have adequate and authentic original sources showing the changes—as much so as are the sources for the Book of Mormon or the revelations. Of course we should use the Joseph Smith Translation in our study and teaching. Since when do any of us have the right to place bounds on the Almighty and say we will believe these revelations but not those? – Bruce R McConkie “I believe that as a divinely called translator and restorer, Joseph Smith also (1) restored that which was once recorded but later removed intentionally; or perhaps even (2) reconstituted that which occurred or was said anciently but never recorded by the ancient arbiters. To doubt either the Prophet’s intentions or abilities with regards to the Bible is to open the door unnecessarily to other questions relative to the books in the canon of scripture, Joseph the translator of the Book of Mormon and the recipient of the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants was the same man called and empowered as a translator of the Bible.” – Robert Millet “The plain and precious missing parts (of the bible) have not yet been made known through manuscripts and scholars, but are available only through the Book of Mormon, the Joseph Smith Translation, and modern revelation through the instrumentality of a prophet.” – Robert Millet “…as the angel pointed out to Nephi, that the Bible has not come to us in its original completeness, and some things are lost from it we should take special note, however, that not only do the scriptures speak of a loss, they also promise a return, a restoration of the lost material because it is so vital to salvation.” – Robert Mathews Book of Mormon Institute Manual From Joseph Smith: “I completed the TRANSLATION and review of the New Testament, on the 2nd of July, 1833, and sealed it up; no more to be opened till it arrived in Zion” (History of the Church, vol. 1, p.324). “We this day finished the TRANSLATION of the SCRIPTURES, for which we return gratitude to our Heavenly Father …” (History of the Church, vol. 1, p.368; letter dated July 2, 1833, signed by Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and F. G. Williams). From the Mormon god: “Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to TRANSLATE again; And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of TRANSLATION until it be finished.”(Doctrine & Covenants, 73:3-4) “… I have commanded you to organize yourselves, even to shinelah [print] my words, the fulness of my SCRIPTURES …” (Doctrine & Covenants, 104:58) “…. the second lot … shall be dedicated unto me for the building of a house unto me, for the work of the printing of the TRANSLATION of my SCRIPTURES … “ (Doctine & Covenants 94:10) “…. let him [William Law] from henceforth hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph,… and publish the new TRANSLATION of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth” (Doctrine & Covenants 124:89) CONCLUSION: The Joseph Smith Translation was considered to be BOTH a translation and scripture (that is the Bible) by Joseph Smith and his collaborators. RESOURCES: https://youtu.be/L6kkhSHX4Ok https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/king-james-bible-400-years  https://rsc.byu.edu/king-james-bible-restoration/latter-day-saint-edition-king-james-bible  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_King_James_Bible  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/08/news-of-the-church/first-presidency-statement-on-the-king-james-version-of-the-bible?lang=eng  https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Joseph_Smith_Translation_of_the_Bible_(JST)  https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/why-the-king-james-version-from-the-common-to-the-official-bible-of-mormonism/  https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Bible https://rsc.byu.edu/sites/default/files/pub_content/pdf/38%20The%20King%20James%20Translation%20of%20the%20New%20Testament.pdf  https://youtu.be/LyhV-E79ccc?t=158  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyhV-E79ccc&t=410s https://rsc.byu.edu/book/joseph-smith-translation https://rsc.byu.edu/how-new-testament-came-be/adding-taking-away-without-cause-matthew-522 https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-translation/doctrinal-restoration  https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V22N02_21.pdf  https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V36N01_171.pdf  The clips from this show were used from The Gospel Tangents Podcast Episode titled“Thomas Wayment Responds to Adam Clarke Controversy (1 of 2)” https://gospeltangents.com/2023/05/thomas-wayment-adam-clarke/ ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/ mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ___________________ The post KJV & JST – The Devaluing of Mormon Scripture and Translation: ML: 135 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Mormon Polygamy Nightmare: Mormonism Live: 134 Nightmares are scary and some nightmares are real. In this gripping episode of Mormonism LIVE, we delve into the extraordinary journey of a woman who lived within a Mormon polygamous relationship. Through an intimate and eye-opening interview, she shares her harrowing experiences, the challenges she faced, and the inspiring story of her escape from the clutches of polygamy As the conversation unfolds, listeners are transported into the center of a polygamous family that is shrouded in secrecy and patriarchal dominance. We delve into the origins of her involvement in the polygamous relationship, exploring how religious beliefs were exploited to justify the practice and perpetuate control over women. Tune in to this riveting episode and join us on an emotional and enlightening journey as we unveil the shadows that hide behind closed doors, empower survivors, and shed light on the resilience of the human spirit. Chapters: 03:15 Meet “Abby” 04:15 The hunt for a straight, single man leads to…Mormonism? 11:30 “the Lord wants us in Las Vegas” 14:30 Becoming bored with Mormonism 28:25 Hunting for new wives 34:15 “What is going through your head?” 37:00 Abby’s husband “earns” his 2nd anointing but Abby refuses 42:00 Trying to bring home Filipina wife 45:15 Cancer diagnosis & death 57:30 21 minutes and 23 seconds () 01:02:00 Abby finally starts looks 01:03:00 Mormonism LIVE is the final straw 01:06:05 Lessons learned 01:21:15 Live calls Mormonism LIVE & the Occult: https://youtube.com/live/ULG2Uk3ggDg ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Mormon Polygamy Nightmare: ML: 134 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

DISCLAIMER: Our Guest, Comedian Ben Brown has a comedy that falls into pg13 including sexual references and crude language The Mormonism Live crew takes a much needed break for June 21st being joined by upcoming “Mormon” comedian Ben Brown known as “The Fresh King Benjamin”. Ben’s humor deeply connects to his own journey in and deconstruction of fundamentalist Mormonism and the episode is sure to be an enjoyable entertaining evening. Ben’s Stand Up: https://youtu.be/XBx5g6FOEaM Ben’s Insta:https://www.instagram.com/thefreshkingbenjamin/ Ben’s Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thefreshkingbenjamin Ben’s website: https://www.thefreshkingbenjamin.com/ Support Ben’s charity for families leaving polygamy: https://cherishfamilies.org/get-involved/donate.html Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: [email protected] #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The post Mormonism Live: 133: The Fresh King Benjamin ( @thefreshkingbenjamin ) appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Dan Vogel sits down with RFM & Bill not only to talk about his new book “Charisma under Pressure: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1831–1839” but to also flesh out some of the incredible ideas in his recent YouTube video “Joseph Smith, the Necromancer”.RESOURCES:Twilit Grotto — Esoteric Archives – esotericarchives.com/Old Bountiful Museum – World of Urban Legends – worldofurbanlegends.com/old-bountiful-museum/Oracles and Talismans, Forgery and Pansophia: Joseph Smith. Jr. as a Renaissance Magus – General Discussions – Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board – mormondialogue.org/topic/69738-oracles-and-talismans-forgery-and-pansophia-joseph-smith-jr-as-a-renaissance-magus/Wilford C. Wood – Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion – MormonWiki – mormonwiki.com/Wilford_C._WoodA-Man-of-Vision-and-Determination-A-Photographic-Essay-and-Tribute-to-Wilford-C.-Wood.pdf (ensignpeakfoundation.org) – ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/A-Man-of-Vision-and-Determination-A-Photographic-Essay-and-Tribute-to-Wilford-C.-Wood.pdfStory behind Joseph and Hyrum Death Masks – Joseph Smith Jr and Emma Hale Smith Historical Society – josephsmithjr.org/joseph-and-hyrum-death-masks/Framing a 17th Century Work on Parchment – Bark Frameworks – The post Mormon Magic Parchments: Mormonism LIVE: 132 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

There is a raging debate within Mormon circles where those folks who are determined to maintain belief in the Prophet Joseph Smith but who abhor polygamy and the Church as ran by Brigham Young and after have found ways to dismiss the standard evidence that Mormonism’s founder was a polygamist. They interpret the evidence as made up by Brigham Young and those around him in an effort to draw Joseph Smith into a practice he never participated in. Stories of fabricating history, backdating prophesy, and discrediting witnesses. On this week’s episode Bill & RFM with a few friends take a look at the evidence and to see if one has compelling reasons to believe Joseph Smith was, in fact, a polygamist! MAIN CONCLUSIONS DRAWN FROM REASON 1.) Clayton Journal Entries can be shown to be reliable 2.) D&C 132 is shown to be reliable as the text of the revelation that Smith received 3.) There is substantial Evidence that imposes that Smith originated and perpetuated Polygamy 4.) Hyrum Smith read the revelation in a High Council Meeting and Joseph and Hyrum tried to excuse the revelation away in the Nauvoo City Council but not a the way that allows Polygamy deniers to impose a narrative of “Eternity Only Sealings” or “Dynastic Sealings”. Hence they must confront why Hyrum and Joseph don’t respond using the narrative they have created. 5.) That any attempt to explain Joseph’s practice as “eternal only” and not time is irrational in light of Hyrum and Joseph’s attempt to walk back the doctrine/revelation of plural marriage by explaining it was in regards to former times and had nothing to do with the present. In other words Dynastic Sealings or relationships in the hereafter that are not binding or sexual in this life is not going to strike fear and anger and rebelliousness in Emma, along with pushback and resentment in Marks, Cowles, and Soby and can be explained without embarrassment. But when Joseph and Hyrum tip their hand by making the excuse that this revelation is about former times and not the present, we can rationally conclude this wasn’t eternal only or dynastic relationships that lacked sex or marriage in this life.(While we didn’t show it, Orange Wight’s autobiography also imposes that Smith had Flora Woodworth as a wife and he was notified that because of such, she was taken. Hence this wasn’t a eternity only relationship.) If you want to see the documents and the notes about what these documents show. Check out the three part Reddit Posts on the topic.. Part 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144aaam/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/ Part 2: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144ahjo/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/ Part 3: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144aqlr/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/ RESOURCES: https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/year-of-polygamy/episode-94-polygamy-controversies-joseph-fought-polygamy/ https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/year-of-polygamy/episode-139-joseph-didnt-fight-polygamy-part-one/ https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/uncategorized/episode-139-joseph-didnt-fight-polygamy-part-two/  https://sunstone.org/e41-brigham-young-and-the-chamber-of-secrets/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZQwyhhFczU   https://www.jstor.org/stable/24243807 This link has the url’s for the Land Deeds of Joseph’s plural wives https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/y90sbz/joseph_smith_acted_unethically_giving_away_church/  https://archive.org/details/history-of-the-saints-1842-john-c-bennett/page/n9/mode/2up?view=theater  – John C Bennett History of the Saints http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100526.pdf Nauvoo Expositor Joseph F. Smith Affidavits – http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JS0361.doc https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/MMD/id/59430/rec/1 – Clayton Diary https://archive.org/details/WilliamClaytonJournal/page/n13/mode/2up – Clayton  page 106 search for plural https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-oliver-cowdery-21-january-1838/1 Cowdery to his brother https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/281385.William_Clayton  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng  https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/281385.William_Clayton  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/915fc5f1-4f65-4131-800a-4eaee3604f3c/37a65922-1a7e-4e6c-9e5b-fa5104b53cbe?view=browse  – affidavits  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUtmzt3fJc&t=1193s&pp=ygUQaGFwcGluZXNzIGxldHRlcg%3D%3D  – Happiness Letter Examination https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200169   – “Illicit Intercourse,” Plural Marriage, and the Nauvoo Stake High Council, 1840-1844 Gary James Bergera https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-12-july-1843-dc-132/1#historical-intro – Kingsbury 132 Revelation https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/187/oa_monograph/chapter/201655/pdf  – Junius and Joseph https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200716 – The Changing RLDS Response to Mormon Polygamy: A Preliminary Analysis Richard P. Howard https://www.jstor.org/stable/40193596 – Buckeye’s Laments: Two Early Insider Exposés of Mormon Polygamy and Their Authorship Gary James Bergera  https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Joseph-Smith%E2%80%99s-Plural-Wives-after-the-Martyrdom.pdf  https://www.reluctantpolygamist.com/reluctant-polygamist/revealing-the-doctrine-1843-1844/20-revealing-the-revelation/#_edn11  http://boap.org/LDS/Nauvoo-Neighbor/1844/6-19-1844.pdf  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/7226d36f-b3a5-4c0e-9d0c-33d87d46ffb4/0/3?lang=eng  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/be940fbd-8fff-410f-b022-bb18d2d8f63c/0/0?lang=eng  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/c6746061-f36c-46ed-8961-03f8c2369d5d/0/85?lang=eng  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e8b138df-18a0-46d8-be8a-0b06292a0795/0/0?lang=eng  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e7896b07-224e-4dd8-8790-b7f995838c46/0/13  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/a51f8c5d-45c3-47c5-aad4-be3f363dfca9/0/0?lang=eng  https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-2-10-march-1843-14-july-1843/263#x921FC028-A4C0-44AF-B35A-EFF029AA3868  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/50c87119-ed1d-4492-b6ff-f60b3e1ac976/0/0?lang=eng  https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Lucy-Walker-Marriage-Document.pdf  https://lifecanbesilly.blogspot.com/2018/09/martha-brotherton-affidavit-polygamy.html  https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/5e60e513-bfaa-4619-908c-4c4ac7b8b6b7/0/0?lang=eng  https://myallredfamily.com/front-page/what-states/utah/family-histories/james-allred-by-j-terry-walker/  https://familypedia.fandom.com/wiki/David_Fullmer_(1803-1879) http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/HCoray.html. https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/polygamy-proposals  The post The Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Polygamist: ML: 131 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

A former seminary teacher got the opportunity to present lots of his questions to the Church Historian recently. Wait till you hear what happened! RESOURCES: Transcript – http://radiofreemormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/ELDER-BALLARD-BLOWS-UP-THE-CHURCH-TRANSCRIPT.pdf Episode – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/11/radio-free-mormon-021-elder-ballard-blows-church/ https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/prophets-and-fallibility/ https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/the-mormon-truth-crisis/ https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/the-mormon-paradox/ Joe’s Document “In Defense of Doubt” – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/In-Defense-of-Doubt-Final.pdf Elder McKay’s Letter back to him – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Elder-McKays-Letter.pdf   The post Seminary Teacher Schools Church Historian: Mormonism Live: 130 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

In this video we delve into the history behind how the LDS Church came to have its name and how its official name has changed from its inception to today. And along the way we learn about the use and meaning of the word Mormon as well as how the Church went from “Latter Day Saints” to Latter-day Saints” and you won’t believe how much went into a hyphen and a lower case letter d. RESOURCES: https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up – 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saints https://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ – History of The Church noting the 1834 Name change https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=eng https://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2up https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note The post Mormonism Live: 129: How The Mormon Church Got Its Name appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

This past week 60 Minutes the CBS TV Journalism Show covered the event of the Church having its finances exposed by whistleblower David Nielson. We take a look at what was said…. and what wasn’t in this weeks episode of Mormonism LIVE! “David Nielsen is a former investment manager for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who became a whistleblower regarding the church’s finances and tax-exempt status. Nielsen accused the church of hoarding billions of dollars it has not paid taxes on and asked the IRS to strip the church of its tax-exempt status. Nielsen argued that the church owes billions in taxes, and he wants a cut of that as part of a reward offered by the IRS for reporting tax-related offenses.” RESOURCES: (2038) Mormon whistleblower: Church’s investment firm masquerades as charity | 60 Minutes – YouTube 60 Minutes – Bishop defends the Church’s investment fund | Facebook (60 Minutes Overtime) The Perpetual Education Fund (churchofjesuschrist.org) The Perpetual Education Fund (churchofjesuschrist.org) (Gordon Hinckley’s talk) Structure of the Corporation of The President / Bishopric (Actual LDS “Church”) | Exploring Mormonism (LDS HOLDINGS) A look at the LDS Church’s legal legacy as a corporation  (The Merging of the two corporations) https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/60minutes/ The post Gone In 60 Minutes: Mormonism Live: 128 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

The story of Joseph Smith and Henry Caswall (Caswell) and the Greek Psalter incident is a historical event that took place in 1842 in Nauvoo Ill.. During his visit to Nauvoo, Illinois, where the Mormon Church was headquartered at the time, Caswall met with Joseph Smith. Caswall showed The Prophet a ancient document which Caswall knew to be a “Greek Psalter” or book of Psalms in the Greek language. Caswall claimed that Smith insisted the Psalter was actually a Dictionary for Egyptian Hieroglyphics book was a translation of an ancient record that he had received through divine revelation. Caswall declared that it was nothing more than an ancient Greek Psalter. As RFM and Bill dig into this story they discover that that Mormonism fares worse than we first thought and the problems reach as high as Jacob’s Ladder. Don’t forget to like and subscribe EXMOSHIRTS – https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions MAILING LIST SIGNUP FORM – http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P RESOURCES: http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1840s/1842Cas1.htm http://www.mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v4n23.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Psalter_Incident https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/BOMP/id/3750 https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/byusq/vol35/iss4/8/ https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3085&context=byusq https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_misidentify_a_Greek_%22psalter%22_as_a_containing_%22reformed_Egyptian%22_hieroglyphics%3F The Greek Psalter Incident https://lifeafter.org/greek-psalter-incident/ https://rsc.byu.edu/approaching-antiquity-joseph-smith-ancient-world/joseph-smiths-awareness-greek-latin https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The_Greek_Psalter_Incident http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/il/sign1843.htm#1118 https://web.archive.org/web/20130701182744/ http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display/pdf.php?table=review&id=513 http://www.truthandgrace.com/The_city_of_the_Mormons.pdf https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-breathing-for-horos-a-between-238-and-circa-153-bc/1 https://archive.org/details/cityofmormonsort01casw/page/20/mode/2up https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-the-dead-for-nefer-ir-nebu-circa-300-100-bc/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-breathing-for-horos-a-between-238-and-circa-153-bc/1 https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/details-photo/the-weighing-of-souls-chapter-125-of-the-book-of-the-dead-detail-of-the-papyrus-of-tasnakht-egyptian-civilisation-late-period/DAE-11127820 The post The Greek Psalter Incident – Another Tale of Translation: Mormonism LIVE: 127 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

RFM and Bill sit down with Jim Bennett to discuss his recent appearances on “Midnight Mormons” and take a look at all the rhetoric around violence in Mormonism including the musket talk by Elder Holland but with an updated and focused discussion around whether such a talk is fueling the very violent threats and rhetoric that critics of Holland’s talk have suggested could be the outgrowth of the “Musket” talk and the lack of the LDS Church in official channels condemning such rhetoric. RESOURCES:207: Nephi’s Faith Transition – Mormon Discussions Podcasts – Full Lineup (mormondiscussionpodcast.org)Radio Free Mormon: 18: Make Way For Dodos – Radio Free MormonThe Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTubeThe Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTubeThe Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTubeThe Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTubeThe Trial of Guatemax! – YouTubeRadio Free Mormon VS Midnight Mormons – The Debate – YouTubeThe Trial of Guatemax! – YouTubeThe Trial of Guatemax! – YouTubeThe Trial of Guatemax! – YouTube The post Mormons & Muskets with Jim Bennett: Mormonism Live: 126 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

When the Phrase “Ongoing Restoration” showed up around 2020 Critics paused as this seemed to be the Church saying something different as if the Church now wanted the restoration to be much earlier in its stage of development than had been intimated in the past. So Bill & RFM take long look over Mormonism’s history to see what has been said and what it might mean. RESOURCES: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/01/26/mormon-land-how-lds/ https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/latter-day-saint-prophet-wife-apostle-share-insights-global-ministry?lang=eng#churchofjesuschrist https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/04/the-ongoing-restoration?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/10/the-gathering-of-scattered-israel?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/11/truth-restored?lang=eng https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SUNDAY-INTERVIEW-Musings-of-the-Main-Mormon-2846138.php https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-ldzfaB33n8oXeI00ttom_i6WUTGeFPD?usp=share_linkhttps://speeches.byu.edu/talks/gary-e-stevenson/the-ongoing-restoration/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKH4vU1EiB4 The post Mormonism Live: 125: Gospel Fully Restored or Just The Beginning Of An Ongoing Restoration? appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

In this week’s edition, RFM and Bill sit down with Dan McClellan, former scripture translation supervisor for the LDS Church. Dan received his bachelor’s degree from Brigham Young University in ancient Near Eastern studies, where he focused on Biblical Hebrew and minored in Classical Greek. He completed a master of studies in Jewish studies at the University of Oxford in July of 2010 and a master of arts in biblical studies at Trinity Western University just outside of Vancouver, BC. His areas of specialization are Second Temple Judaism, early Israelite religion, and textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible. RESOURCES: https://rsc.byu.edu/author/mcclellan-daniel-o https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan?lang=endanielomcclellan.com/ https://hcommons.org/members/maklelan/ https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-20-no-2-2019/far-it-translated-correctly-bible-translation-church The post Biblical Scholarship with Dan McClellan: Mormonism LIVE: 124 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Years ago Jonathan Streeter wrote a blog post titled “Fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick!” that was deeply influential on Bill. So tonight we bring Streeter into the studio to discuss Wood Tools vs Steel Tools and tom recognize when wood tools are being used. RESOURCES: https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/fix-your-faith-crisis-with-this-one-weird-trick/ https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/08/premium-fix-faith-crisis-one-weird-trick-wood-vs-steel-tools/ https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/ The post Mormonism LIVE: 123: Wood Tools vs Steel Tools w/ Jonathan Streeter appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

This General Conference had lots of interesting twists and turns that have now had time to ruminate in the minds of RFM and Bill Reel. And this weeks episode involves a dive into the Mormon phenomena known as the April 2023 General Conference of the LDS Church. RESOURCES OF TALKS DISCUSSED: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYdM8WyYM – Elder Ahmad S. Corbitt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYXk_7uLbU – Elder Vern R. Stanfill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jTa8FG7A8 – Elder Allen D. Haynie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9freQw16qY – Elder Carl B. Cook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLplozLahP4 – Elder Gerrit W. Gong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQwObipvTJc – Elder D. Todd Christofferson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSmP5tnSevI – Elder Neil L. Andersen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQghSMOOYz4 – President Russell M. Nelson The post Mormonism LIVE: 122: GenCon CXCIII appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Joseph Smith’s First Vision ushered in the restoration of the Gospel. It had Heavenly Father and His Son coming through the Heavens to visit the young boy in the spring of 1820. This vision leads to the founding of Mormonism. But what is not as well known is that in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s, everyone and their brother was having visions and many of them appear to be very similar to Joseph Smith’s. So in this week’s episode Bill and RFM do a comparative analysis on those other Visions to see what can be gleaned and its no small thing what they find. RESOURCES: https://web.archive.org/web/20180710083455/https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/theophany-mine/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening https://archive.org/details/lifecon00smit/page/n13/mode/2up http://www.mormonstudiespodcast.org/joseph-smith-elias-smith-and-wilford-poulson/ https://archive.org/details/TheReligiousExperienceOfNorrisStearns http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech6.htm https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/16 https://www.watchman.org/articles/mormonism/piecing-together-the-first-vision/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vision https://rsc.byu.edu/exploring-first-vision/significance-joseph-smiths-first-vision-mormon-thought https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-first-vision https://mit.irr.org/joseph-smiths-changing-first-vision-accounts https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/joseph-smith/first-vision/ https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-prognostication-of-asa-wild/ http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/SChamberlain.html https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-visionary-world-of-joseph-smith/ http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/first-vision-plagiarized.html https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83032054/1831-02-01/ed-1/seq-5/ https://archive.org/details/SketchOfExperiencesOfSolomonChamberlin/mode/2up?view=theater&q=apo http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/SChamberlain.html https://hdl.huntington.org/digital/collection/p16003coll15/id/40132 https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/first-vision/ https://youtu.be/WB3iwEX8WhY?t=1306 https://rsc.byu.edu/exploring-first-vision/earliest-documented-accounts-joseph-smiths-first-vision https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/2041501 The post Mormonism LIVE: 121: Joseph Smith’s First Vision in Context: A Comparative Analysis appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Tonight RFM and Bill take a look at how both Top Church Leadership and local leaders extend pressure for dissenting voices to be silent. The episode will include individual stories along with the general instruction by top leaders to diminish dissenting voices and at times to altogether silence them. RESOURCES: Oaks “Its Wrong to Criticize Leaders” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxyiHLg59ks Oaks “Questions Are Honored, Opposition is Not” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPeIgjZ0EQg&t=746s Ballard – “Women don’t talk too much” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQ4h6tGbnE Bruce R McConkie – Echo what I Say or be Silent – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/mcconkie-to-eugene-england/ The post Mormonism LIVE: 120: Silencing Dissent – Mormon Style appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Many are going through great lengths to justify the massive hoards of wealth the Church has accumulated on the backs of its believers, even going as far as to use scripture. But do these scriptures REALLY justify the accumulation of wealth as the Church and its members would have you believe? The post Mormonism LIVE: 118: How Mormons Twist Scripture to Worship Wealth w/ David Bokovoy appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

In this week’s episode we discuss the recent news of the Temple Changes and just how far the original Endowment has been altered. And the Second half of the show will involve the recent legal settlement with the LDS Church and it’s Ensign Peak Advisors and culminating with RFM’s lightbulb moment sensing that the Landscape of Mormonism has changed and his novel idea around such. Temple Changes Resources: https://religionnews.com/2023/02/10/more-jesus-less-touching-14-changes-to-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/02/09/lds-temple-ceremonies-change/ https://www.mrm.org/revised-lds-temple-endowment-ceremony-now-includes-more-pictures-of-jesus SEC Alleged Fraud RESOURCES: SEC Report – https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf SEC Press statement – https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35 Church Response – https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement https://bycommonconsent.com/2023/02/21/the-church-the-investment-advisor-and-the-sec/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/27/heres-deeper-look-how-lds/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/27/heres-deeper-look-how-lds/ RFM’s Lawsuit Idea  https://youtu.be/hgUwpXSNlXM The post Mormonism LIVE: 117: Changes To The Temple & The Ethics of Ensign Peak Advisors appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

On June 27th 1844, Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, was martyred at Carthage Jail by a mob. Or at least that is how the generally accepted story goes. In the last 8 months, Justin Griffin (Director & Producer) and Steve Sorensen (Film Maker), have shared their research that maybe things are not what we have been told. They present their experts, their research, and their conclusions that it was in fact John Taylor and Willard Richards that in fact murdered their own prophet in cold blood. RFM and Bill take a look at their research and the testimony of their experts to see what can be seen with a critical eye. Is this research true? Was Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith killed by their friends? RESOURCES: https://whokilledjosephsmith.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@jgriffWKJS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXfTw01ogPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJddLojI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEyXihepN4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU9lfZu-q-c&t=10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY3LJWrqvW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3961&context=byusq https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/john-taylor-martyrdom-account/1 The post Mormonism LIVE: 116: Who Really Killed Joseph Smith? appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

On this week’s episode we sit down with Brent Bokovoy, Writer and Director of the upcoming film “Ronald’s Little Factory”, and we discuss all the twists and turns in Mormon Cinema including your favorites, along with movies you have likely forgotten, as well as one’s you never heard of. We finish out the episode discussing the upcoming film “Ronald’s Little Factory”. Boyd K Packer would have been proud! RESOURCES: Ronald’s Little Factory Trailer 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcsMBJ6kk6w Ronald’s Little Factory – The Why behind the Film – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhFnlp9qjc4 EARLY MORMON CINEMA * A Mormon Maid * A Victim Of The Mormons * Brigham Young LDS PRODUCED CINEMA * Johny Lingo * The Pump *  Legacy * The Testaments MODERN MORMON CINEMA * Virginia * God’s Army *  Brigham City * States of Grace * The Singles Ward * The RM * Baptists At The Barbecue * Sons Of Provo * The Home Teachers * Mobsters And Mormons * The Book of Mormon Movie * The Other Side of Heaven * The Best Two Years * Saints And Soldiers * Once I Was A Beehive POST MORMON CINEMA * Plan 10 From Outer Space * Orgazmo * South Park Episode * The Book Of Mormon Musical * Latter Days * Trapped By The Mormons * Big Love * Angels In America * September Dawn * The Book Of Zombie * Electrick Children * The Falls * Missionary * Room 104 SHORT FILMS * Bad Mormons * Killer Missionaries * The Touch Of The Master’s Hand DOCUMENTARIES * 8 The Mormon Proposition * Believer * Tabloid RECENT * Murder Among The Mormons * Keep Sweet And Obey * Under The Banner Of Heaven * Sins of Our Mother *  Mormon No More * Abducted In Plain Sight * A Friend of the Family The post Mormonism LIVE: 115: Mormon Cinema appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

RFM and Bill review the recent set of Documents and other items sent by Florida Law Enforcement in RFM as part of a Freedom of Information Request.  It is best to watch this on YouTube where the documents can be observed. ***TRIGGER WARNING***This episode will contain details of an alleged Homicide of a child. Please skip this episode if needed and please keep kids away from this episode. The post Mormonism LIVE: 114: The Derek Cordon Homicide Investigation appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

The Salt Lake Tribune recently published a book review on the book “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints” published by the Maxwell Institute. Both the book and the Tribune article make note that what Latter-day Saints believed about early Christianity and the Great Apostasy may not only “overly simplistic, if not (a) completely false narrative”. But where did Latter-day Saints get these beliefs? How did Mormonism define the Great Apostasy? And more importantly if we redefine the very reasons for what a Restoration is and why it was needed, might we be undercutting the restoration itself? Maxwell Institute Book available – Ancient Christians Available Now – Neal A. Maxwell Institute (byu.edu) 1832 First Vision Account contradicting SLTRIB Claim that B. H. Roberts was the first promoted the apostasy narrative – History, circa Summer 1832, Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org) 1838 First Vision account also contains significant apostasy narrative pieces History, circa June 1839–circa 1841 [Draft 2], Page 3 (josephsmithpapers.org)  The Great Apostasy by: James Talmage published 1909 by the Deseret News – Which lays out in significant ways “The Great Apostasy” – The great apostasy : considered in the light of scriptural and secular history : Talmage, James Edward, 1862-1933 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive The Church url for their pamphlet on the Great Apostasy – The Great Apostasy (churchofjesuschrist.org) While The Church is reducing the Great Apostasy to only Priesthood and Keys – They clearly have attached Doctrine, Church organization and Offices, consistency of Saving Rituals as well as imposing that Christ set up an actual Church as key components of  “The Great Apostasy” – Talks where some of those concepts are spoken Example 1  Example 2 Example 3 The Church teaches that part of the Great Apostasy is that rather than leading via revelation that the early Christian Church instead traqnsitioned over to “Long Conferences” and “Erudite Councils” “depending upon their own brilliant minds” (See Manual Image Below) –  and yet Elder Eyring admits that such is the very way this Church is led – Henry B. Eyring: “Forget Harvard and Stanford. We’re in another kind of thing here.” – YouTube LDS Church Shifting to More Pageantry and Colorful Presentation to satisfy everyone (which in their manual they claim is a sign of the Great Apostasy)   Example 1   Example 2  Example 3 The Modern Church creating a narrative of an ongoing restoration and that such has only begun to obfuscate that they are moving and shifting in every way they had previously labeled in the early Church as signs of Apostasy  (Please note how is one to discern that all shifts and changes ithin the modern Church are “Auhtorized” and all shifts and changes in the Ancient Church are “Unauthorized” 1.) Distorting the and changing the Church organization and offices (Modern Church has changed the calling of Seventies, disbanded the General Patriarch, and created and then laterdisbanded the High Priests Group 2.) Silence between the Heavens and the Earth 3.) Vast numbers who had professed membership and many who had been officers in the ministry deserted the church; while a few were stimulated to greater zeal under the scourge of persecution. 4.) Internal dissension, schism and disruption, whereby an absolute apostasy of the Church from the way and word of God was brought about” 5.) The corrupting (Changing) of the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ by admixture with so-called philosophic systems. (Corrupting is subjective) 6.) Unauthorized (Subjective) additions to the prescribed rites and rituals of the church and the introduction of vital alterations in essential ordinances. 7.) Unauthorized (Subjective) changes in church organization and government 8.) “If the savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., i doubt whether he would have recognized the Christian church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.”  VERSUS ” If Joseph Smith came back to earth  today, i doubt whether he would have recognized the LDS Church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.” 9.) The power of godliness was no longer present in the Christian church.   (Is that power recognizable within the LDS Church ?) 10.) The laws were changed (Notice all the laws that have changed in the LDS Church EXAMPLES: The doing away of “Free Agency” and D&C say a Disciplinary Court requires 12 high priests but the Modern Church says not necessary) 11.) The ordinances were changed (Notice the changes to the Endowment) 12.) The everlasting covenant was broken that the lord Jesus Christ gave to his people in those days. (Notice what happened to the New and Everlasting Covenant within Mormonism AKA Polygamy) 13.) The superimposing of a man-made structure upon and over the divine program. 14.) Many men with no pretense nor claim to revelation, speaking without divine authority or revelation, depending only upon their own brilliant minds, but representing as they claim the congregations of the Christians. 15.) In long conference and erudite councils, sought the creation process to make a God which all could accept. 16.) The brilliant minds with their philosophies, knowing much about the Christian traditions and the pagan philosophies, would combine all elements to please everybody. 17.) They replaced the simple ways and program of the Christ with spectacular rituals, colorful display, impressive pageantry, and limitless pomposity, and called it Christianity. 18.) They had replaced the glorious, divine plan of exaltation of Christ with an elaborate, colorful, man-made system. they seemed to have little idea of totally dethroning the Christ, nor terminating the life of God, as in our own day, but they put together an incomprehensible God idea” It also should be noted that the LDS Church imposes that Christ organized his Church, and set forth the offices of the Church and that whenever the Gospel has been on the Earth it has been taught and administered by the Church.  Also note that even believing Faithful Scholars within the Church indicate that Jesus and his disciples remained Jews within the Jewish faith and synagogue. The post Mormonism LIVE: 113: What Ever Happened To The Great Apostasy? appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Recently Bill did a solo episode away from Mormonism LIVE walking members into the historical analysis of the initial Doctrine of tithing as 10% of one’s Surplus or Interest to help believers sense they had an option backed by historical documentation that allowed them to save themselves Thousands of Dollars a year while remaining faithful. After that episode a listener sent Bill and RFM an image of a vintage Church Handbook of Instruction that got their wheels turning and this week’s episode seeks to to delve into a historical analysis of how Surplus or Interest became Gross. And YES, You will be disgusted. Here is the pdf presentation of the outline – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Tithing-Whats-In-A-Word.pdf The Introduction of Tithing to the Saints and “What is in a word” D&C 119 VS 1-4 (Given in 1838) – This law was imposed by God as a “Standing Law Forever” and came after the Law of Consecration had failed. Strange that Heavenly Father seems unable to see that this “Standing Law Forever” was about to be anything but consistent and eternal. Tithing has always meant a tenth. History of tithing in the world generally But a tenth of what? is the crux Verse 1 – Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands It seems the original commandment required ALL Surplus property be given to the Church upon entry into the faith. Verse 4 – Intimates that once one has entered the faith giving all their surplus property, they there after “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually” INTEREST = #3 “Regard to private profit” #4 “Any surplus advantage” What does Surplus mean = “What is above and beyond after the necessities are taken care of” “that which remains when use is satisfied” What does all this mean The law of tithing when taken on face value without any manipulation of the words seems to mean “When one enters the Church they are to hand over all Surplus property (any property above and beyond what is a necessity of life), and to then pay 1/10th of their “interest” or “surplus advantage” annually It also says that this shall be a standing law forever hence meaning it is DOCTRINE and can’t be changed (Without additional revelation). “Settled; established, either by law or by custom, etc.; continually existing; permanent; not temporary” Since it is the Church who is about to muddy the waters the question is being begged if “Interest” means something other than how the word is literally why wasn’t God more clear? Examples of how it was interpreted in early Church history JST Genesis 14:39 vs the original verse Genesis 14:20 that Joseph seems to be modifying (between June 1830 and July 1833) Original – “And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.” Joseph Smith’s Adaptation – “Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.” Joseph seems to be modifying this narrative about Melchizedek so as to have it conform with D&C 119’s reasonable interpretation of tithing as 1/10 of surplus. What he adds should be assumed to be altering the meaning otherwise why adapt it at all. Bishop Partridge “If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and 1/10 of the interest will of course be $6.— thus you see the plan.” Bishop Edward Partridge letter to Newel K. Whitney, July 24, 1838 Bishop Partridge, the first Bishop in the Church is instructing Newel K Whitney (I believe the second bishop in the Church) on the definition of tithing and his responsibility to collect it Bishop Partridge seems to be interpreting tithing literally based on the verse “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest (increase) annually” and is suggesting that one pay 10% of the interest earned on one’s net worth invested at 6% Lastly Steven Harper seems to agree when he says “Bishop Partridge understood “one tenth of all their interest” annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year” Millennial Star 1847 (Orson Hyde Editor) – “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” – quotes comes post end of consecration and after law of tithing is revealed This seems to deeply agree with the very interpretations we laid out by simply being reasonable with the definitions of words a.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing before feeding your family b.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing gets you out of poverty c.) It seems to disagree with paying the tithing of the income you want to have d.) It seems to disagree with Net Blessings or Gross Blessings Lorenzo Snow 1899 in Saint George – (Church source ) ““I pray that every man, woman, and child [who has means] shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.” When net or gross are used everyone has means with almost no exception. Lorenzo Snow’s words mesh extremely well with that 1847 Millennial Star section. Though we see for the First Time Income is substituted for Interest. This seems to be the place where later statements define interest as income. This is apparently the place where later leaders claim “interest” to understood as income. The Modern Church while using the Income for Interest Substitution always withholds “Who has means” every time Snow is requoted in Church Materials, seemingly to deceive members from making a decision based on the full quote. (Ballard hiding Things Audio Bite). This is dishonest, gaslighting, manipulation, and once one grasps the pressure local leaders feel to impose 10% of gross it is also coercion. You can’t have one without the other. It’s where they get their “understanding” The Doctrine of Tithing as it was interpreted by Various Church Handbooks of Instruction (And the Official Letter in 1970) 1913 Handbook 1923 handbook 1944 Handbook 1960 handbook 1963 handbook THIS 1963 HANDBOOK IS WHEN TITHING IS EXPLICITLY DEFINED AS ON GROSS INCOME. ONLY TO BE TAKEN BACK OUT THE FOLLOWING HANDBOOK. 1968 handbook a. Notice the apparent pushback or reconsideration and hence retreat away from being explicit about gross. This is a partial wondering about any legal liability due to their being explicit and contradicting past definitions 1970 First Presidency Letter “We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – this is Bullshit. THE 1899 CONFERENCE TALK BY SNOW SEEMS TO BE THE PLACE THEY PULL FROM TO REDEFINE INTEREST AS INCOME 1976 Handbook Closeup 1983 Handbook 1989 Handbook Conclusion Knowing what these words mean, knowing how they were interpreted, knowing how they were implemented and carried out imposes that Church members grasp this all meant Interest literally. It meant surplus literally. It meant Increase literally….. And then suddenly somewhere, somehow all of these words are changed to mean “Income” out of thin air. RFM–IT IS NOTEWORTHY THAT THE CHANGE FROM “INTEREST” TO “INCOME” WAS DONE BY LORENZO SNOW IN THE CONTEXT OF RAISING MORE MONEY TO GET THE CHURCH OUT OF DEBT. PERHAPS THIS WAS THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE; IN ORDER TO RAISE MORE MONEY. And until an official voice (Church leader or LDS Newsroom) can explain to the Church membership where Surplus or interest earned became Gross or even Net “Income” every Church member should refuse to play by rules that have been made up in order to create the wealthy Church we have today. Why the bait and switch in meaning from Interest meaning surplus to Interest meaning Gross or Net Income?, why the bait and switch in word substitution and vocabulary going from the word Interest to the word income? Why the obfuscation of “Who Has Means”, and why not actually follow the very rule they pretend exists and allow “every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”? We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – Again bullshit RESOURCES: https://www.britannica.com/topic/tithe https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng The post Mormonism LIVE: 112: Tithing – What’s In A Word appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

The running narrative within Mormonism is that Joseph Smith was an uneducated backwoods farm boy and that his lack of sophistication leaves the the Restoration as a miracle that no country bumpkin could have pulled off. But what happens when, with critical thinking skills, we take a look at the the Education he did have or had potential access to. Was Joseph Smith uneducated? Was he a middle school dropout as a surface level reading intimates? And what do we see when we look at the education of those around Joseph Smith and specifically within his family?CORRECTIONS [ There were two errors in the video presentation for this episode. #1 Randall Bell conflated incorrectly that Joseph’s uncle, John Smith (July 16, 1781 – May 23, 1854) was same John Smith (December 21, 1752 – April 30, 1809) who played a prominent role in the early history of Dartmouth. #2 The letter put up on the screen of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdrey, is in the handwriting of Frederick G Williams.] RESOURCES: Dartmouth Arminianism And Its Impact on Hyrum Smith And the Smith Family – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/book_of_mormon/translation/Dartmouth-Arminianism-Behrens-2006-JWH.pdf PDF Reassessing Joseph Smith Jr.’s Formal Education William Davis Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (2016) 49 (4): 1–58. – https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/49/4/1/1284352/dialjmormthou.49.4.0001.pdf Randall Bell’s PDF Presentation – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Randy-Bell-Dartmouth.pdf Joseph Smith’s Pre-1830 Education – https://mormonr.org/qnas/MggWf/joseph_smiths_pre_1830_education List of Books Joseph Smith owned – https://user.xmission.com/~research/about/books.htm Treasures and a Trash Heap: An Early Reference to the Joseph Smith Family in Palmyra (Page 201 of the document) – https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=mormonhistory William Davis wrote an article “reassessing Joseph Smith Jr’s Formal Education” and notes that when one tallies up all the evidence including the final term with Stowell’s son in Bainbridge such “increases the overall estimated time that Joseph spent in formal education to the equivalent of approximately seven full school years —a notable increase to that proposed in previous historical representations, and one that will require the careful evaluation of future historians” reddit discussion around the Dartmouth Connection – https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/92e2sl/similarities_between_dartmouth_professor_john/ Adam Clarke’s Book on Tobacco – https://archive.org/details/b30351108#:~:text=A%20dissertation%20on%20the%20use%20and%20abuse%20of,among%20religious%20people….%20by%20Clarke%2C%20Adam%2C%20approximately%201762-1832 History of Moor’s Indian Charity School – https://archives-manuscripts.dartmouth.edu/agents/corporate_entities/786 The post Mormonism LIVE: 111: Joseph Smith’s Secret Education – The Dartmouth Connection appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Bill & RFM take a look at the Life of Francis Gladden Bishop, another Latter-day Saint who claimed to be the rightful heir to Joseph Smith after the martyrdom as part of the Mormon Succession Crisis. RESOURCES: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/license-for-gladden-bishop-14-april-1840-extract/1 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145852385/francis-gladden-bishop https://atom3.lib.byu.edu/mormonbib/11107/. https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/francis-gladden-bishop-1809 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladden_Bishop, https://wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/subjects/francis-gladden-bishop https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/bc-jsp/content/jsp/images/1168/1168_ms155_3_05_001_med.jpg https://archive.org/details/addresstosonsdau01bish https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/215, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/bc-jsp/content/jsp/images/1168/1168_ms155_3_05_001_med.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/Ensign-Shepherd-Remembrance-Classic-Reprint/dp/1333273819/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VOHXKME6OJK6&keywords=%22francis+gladden+bishop%22&qid=1672953250&sprefix=francis+gladden+bishop+%2Caps%2C128&sr=8-1 https://smile.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AFrancis+Gladden+Bishop&s=relevancerank&text=Francis+Gladden+Bishop&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-francis-gladden-bishop-26-september-1843/1 https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JS0428.pdf The post Mormonism LIVE: 110: Francis Gladden Bishop – Succession Crisis, Orgies, & Sacred Relics appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Bill and RFM take a deep look at how sex and sexuality were presented within the LDS Church over the last 200 years. What was taboo and sin and to what degree did Leaders impose what could and could not go on the Bedroom. RAPE & VIRTUE A.) BOM teaching – Moroni 9:9 implemented into Gospel Principles (David O McKay, Heber J Grant, Spencer W Kimball) Restated by Marion G Romney Then by Mark E Petersen (soundbite) And then the Church seems to distance itself from the teaching …. Sort of Still in scriptures No documented way for believers to grasp they are distancing themselves from it. Elizabeth Smart – led to the distancing Neil Anderson ( video is here )  Doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Q of the 12.   I would challenge believers to show me where I can find any teaching that has been held up and taught by all 15 of the top leadership.  That list would be so small that there should be no barrier to listing them because if 14 men taught it and one didn’t by this standard it is not Doctrine (Remember God is not a God of Confusion) So I am left to assume Neil meant that so long as it is taught generally among the Leaders? Was this teaching in its day taught generally among the leaders?  YES It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. Was this hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk?  NO It (That Virtue and chastity can be taken from you by an abusive act committed against you and that one is better off dead than having lost their virtue) was taught  By President, Prophet, seer and Revelator David O McKay By President, Prophet, seer and Revelator Heber J Grant Marion G Romney Counselor in the First Presidency  (Prophet Seer and Revelator) By President, Prophet, seer, and Revelator Spencer W Kimball By Apostle Mark E Petersen (Prophet Seer and Revelator) In the past correlated curriculum in Gospel Principles In the Book of Mormon one of the standard works This is the very reason for which old white men claiming to be moral authorities simply aren’t.  Because not only do they collectively struggle to grasp what healthy morality is and seem to collectively follow each other down the path of perpetuating abusive and unhealthy ideas, but because they also can’t define doctrine in any way that is actually useful to the Church.  ORAL SEX AS AN UNHOLY AND UNNATURAL ACT A.) Unholy & Unnatural Act THE OLD DEFINITION OF CHASTITY (Old Handbook 21.4.5 Chastity and Fidelity)  “The Lord’s law of chastity is abstinence from sexual relations outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage. Sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife. Adultery, fornication, homosexual or lesbian relations, and every other unholy, unnatural, or impure practice are sinful. Members who violate the Lord’s law of chastity or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline.” THE NEW DEFINITION OF CHASTITY  – The Lord’s law of chastity is: Abstinence from sexual relations outside of a legal marriage between a man and a woman. Fidelity within marriage. Not in Gospel Principles either But Still on the Church’s site in other forms Teachings of President Kimball Guide to the Scriptures Intimacy in Marriage President Kimball seemingly contradicting himself as he is the one who took up this cause B.) Oral Sexcapades Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency naming it in official letter Retracting it in a second letter BIRTH CONTROL  (I want to be extremely brief here.  I am going to present these quotes in passing) A.) PAST TEACHINGS . . . there is a certain class of Latter-day Saints that have come to think as the gentile world does—that it is not stylish, not nice to have large families; and therefore we find, much to our sorrow, that in some instances steps are being taken “to prevent these spirits being tabernacled by them. .. . Apostle Abraham O. Woodruff, 1900 Speaking about Birth Control and Abortion Joseph F Smith said “Possibly no greater sin could be committed by the people who have embraced this Gospel than to prevent or to destroy life in the manner indicated.” The Church statistical report for 1901 (possibly the earliest reporting a Church birth rate). “There is something wrong,” reported the Juvenile Instructor, “either with ourselves or with our statistics—possibly with both; but we trust it is with the statistics, as that is the lesser evil.” Not only had the marriage rate declined, but “our average birth rate, if we can believe our statistical reports, is far too low. It is below that of the nations of modern Christendom to whose birth rate we have been able to obtain access. Ours, as reported, is a little over thirty-five per annum in each thousand souls.”54 The reaction to this discovery was predictable. A charge was given to review the statistics and to keep more accurate records, and markedly increased attention was given in Church discourses and publications to the obligation to have large families. Throughout the remainder of the decade, the Saints were enjoined to “be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth,” and to abandon the “tendency to postpone the responsibilities [of marriage] until middle life.” Bachelorhood and “wilfully motherless wives” came under particular attack, while the mothers of large families were singled out for special recognition.The mothers of Zion (or the statisticians) responded to the call. Within a decade, the Church could announce a birthrate of 38 per thousand, up ten percent. Although not as high as desired, there was still room for considerable pride that this was “the highest birth-rate in the world, as far as available statistics show.”56 (By comparison, the national rate was nearly ten per thousand lower. At these rates, a representative Mormon mother would average nearly five children, while her non-Mormon counterpart would be closer to 31/2. Joseph Fielding Smith – “. . . those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord, and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world . . . are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they. . . “ Joseph F Smith “. . . I regret, I think it is a crying evil, that there should exist a sentiment or a feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. I think that is a crime whenever it occurs, where husband and wife are in possession of health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity. I believe that where people undertake to curtail or prevent the birth of their children that they are going to reap disappointment by and by. I have no hesitancy in saying that I believe this is one of the greatest crimes in the world today, this evil practice. . . .” David O McKay – “The viewpoint of the Church,” he wrote on another occasion, “.. . is that the use of artificial preventatives is strictly out of line, as long as the health of the wife is not seriously impaired by childbearing.” 1976 Handbook of Instruction (as one who is aware that the old handbooks exist out there on the internet, I am confident that Birth Control was not discussed in the handbook earlier and the position was softened in later editions)(Spencer Kimball President) – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/BirthControl1976.png   (Close Up) Bruce R McConkie – Mormon Doctrine – “”Those who practice birth control—the regulation of births in a family by the employment of artificial means or contraceptives to prevent conception—are running counter to the foreordained plan of the Almighty. They are in rebellion against God and are guilty of gross wickedness.”   Give the Church a compliment here.  Express that on this issue they have been moderately healthy and outside of some really early quotes and the 1976 Handbook anomaly they have been moderate and credit should be given to Bruce R McConkie and Mormon Doctrine for the proliferation of the unhealthy view that associated Birth Control with wickedness and somewhat unredeemable forgiveness   B.) CURRENT TEACHINGS The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife. Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God.   INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE (Black African Descent Only) AS SIN A.) Early Teachings against Inter-racial Marriage Brigham Young 1852 Speech on Slavery “Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will summons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction,–we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.” –   Is this a false Prophesy or Was the Priesthood taken from the Church?   In light of “Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng “If they [the couple and child] were far away from the Gentiles [non-Mormons] they wo[ul]d all have to be killed[.] [W]hen they mingle seed it is death to all. If a black man & white woman come to you & demand baptism can you deny them? [T]he law is their seed shall not be amalg[a]mated. Mulattoes are like mules[,] they can’t have the children, but if they will be Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God’s Heaven’s sake they may have a place in the Temple.” “In the priesthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the priesthood upon themselves but the entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an unguarded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoneing for the sin. Would this be to curse them? no it would be a blessing to them. -it would do them good that they might be saved with their Bren. A man would shuder should they here us take about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them, allthough the true principles of it are not understood.”   B.) People were punished for inter-racial marriage up to the 1960’s Under Wilford Woordruff – “In the late 1800s at least two white members were denied church ordinances after they had married a black person. In 1895, a white woman was denied a temple sealing to her white husband because she had previously married a black man, even though she had divorced him.[60]: 78–79  First Presidency member George Q. Cannon argued that allowing her access to the temple would not be fair to her two daughters, whom she’d had with her former husband.[61]: 78 [60]: 37 [62] Another white man was denied the priesthood in 1897 because he had married a black woman, though, then senior apostle Lorenzo Snow stated that the man would be eligible if he divorced his wife and married a white woman.[60]: 79, 83  Additionally, Cannon recorded in his journal having stated in 1881 that when it came to the important question of interracial marriage, Mormons believed against “intermarriage with inferior races, particularly the negro.” [1966], President McKay addressed a similar issue regarding a woman who had been to the temple and subsequently married a black man. The woman was told by her local Church leader ‘that no further Temple visits would be allowed her, and that[,] because of her marriage to a Negro[,] her Temple endowments are ineffective.’ McKay overruled the invalidation of her endowments but did prevent her from visiting the temple again. – DOCUMENTATION 1  & DOCUMENTATION 2 C.) Inter-racial Marriage still recommended against Lesson 31 (aarronic Priesthood Manual)  – Choosing an Eternal Companion – “We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).” ETERNAL MARRIAGE STUDENT MANUAL PDF Page 180 but strangely removed from Page 199 where the quote is only partially repeated “We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast. Because of this, we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question.” Weird Topic with nothing of substance   (Quote haven’t hidden anything)   MASTURBATION A.) Boyd K Packer “To Young Men Only” B.) Spencer W. Kimball – Use Mormon Think to show the litany of quotes C.) Mark E Petersen – Weirdest correlated talk ever in the Church “First counselor George A. Smith tells the Salt Lake School of the Prophets about “the evil of Masturbation”  /  (September) Branch presidents at the Missionary Training Center receive a 21-point handout to help “both male and female” missionaries avoid masturbation. Point 19: “In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.” In a May 1995 article about masturbation, the national magazine ‘Details’ publishes seventeen of these recommendations and identifies Apostle Mark E. Petersen as the suthor of ‘Steps in Overcoming Masturbation: A Guide To Self-Control.’ In 1996, a spokesman at LDS headquarters denies that Elder Petersen authored this document and denies it was ever officially distributed.” First I just have to say, any youth given this talk to curb their “self abuse” of their “little factory” was almost assuredly thinking more often about masturbation after reading this and inevitably touching themself more not less. #13 – Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.  Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon, firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases.  In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep. D.) Stance has softened in recent years AND I EXPECT SUCH TO CONTINUE Ensign – “How, When, and Why: Talking to Your Children about Sexuality” “It is important for parents to find a balance between helping children understand the why behind God’s commandment that sexual behavior occur within a marriage relationship, while also not reacting with disgust or anger when children engage in self-touching or youth admit to masturbating.” Most recent Handbook says Masturbation not grounds for formal discipline TEACHINGS ON SEX GENERALLY A.) President Joseph F. Smith stated – [T]he Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has formulated no special rules governing the associations of married people. . . . [A]s to their mutual conduct in the marital relation, so far as sexual intercourse is concerned, they are left entirely free. – Joseph F. Smith To Frank S. Bellings, FEB. 17, 1905. B.) President Joseph Fielding Smith stated when asked a similar question by an anonymous female member “The Brethren feel that the question which you raise is such as should be answered by you and your husband and in accordance with your own convictions. The Church has never believed it necessary to issue instructions pertaining to intimate relations between husband and wife.” – Joseph Anderson – Secretary to the 1st Presidency to L.A. Mar 23 1971  C.) Others Statements- “[S]exual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.” D.) “Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love within marriage.” ________________________ RFM ADDITION–I THINK THE CHURCH’S OBSESSION (DARE I CALL IT THAT?) WITH VIRTUE AND CHASTITY HAS LED TO THE STRANGE SITUATION OF THE CHURCH USING GREAT WORKS OF ART TO ILLUSTRATE CHRISTIAN-RELATED THEMES, BUT MODIFYING THEM TO MAKE THEM ACCEPTABLE TO THE STRICT RULES OF THE LAW OF CHASTITY. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12/30/gordon-monson-when-lds-church/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12/29/latter-day-saints-alter-nativity/ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11588083/Mormon-Church-condemned-photoshopping-painting-Virgin-Mary-cover-bust-shoulders.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490 NOTE–IT IS THE LAST ARTICLE LINKED ABOVE FROM THE DAILY MAIL THAT SHOWS THE PRIOR MODIFICATIONS.   RESOURCES: https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/1982_Temple_Recommend_Adjustments_Oral_Sex.jpg   https://radiowest.kuer.org/current-events/2021-04-22/the-sexual-history-of-the-lds-church https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/12/HealthyLDSSexuality-Mormon-Discussion-Podcast.pdf  https://eternalintimacy.weebly.com/whats-allowed-after-marriage.html  https://www.mormonmatters.org/prophetic-counsel-about-sex-within-marriage-a-brief-history/  https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/LDS-First-Presidency-Oral-Sex-Letter.jpg  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2012/10/trial-of-your-faith?lang=eng https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mormon-sex-religion_n_6669892  https://www.ranker.com/list/facts-about-mormon-intimacy/lindsayweglarz https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/birth-control?lang=eng&cid=14503511667      https://archive.org/details/reliefsocietymag03reli/page/n403/mode/2up?view=theater&q=birth+control     https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N02_14.pdf     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_and_Mormonism#Birth_control_and_abortion    https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Birth%20Control%20Family%20Size.htm  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_chastity  https://www.danielaburgess.com/blog/2019/11/20/oral-sex  https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N02_14.pdf   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_on_masturbation_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints  http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm  https://www.mrm.org/topicsdocuments-speechesbrigham-youngs-1852-speech-slavery   http://www.connellodonovan.com/black_white_marriage.html https://rationalfaiths.com/blacks-and-the-priesthood-revisted/ https://ia903006.us.archive.org/29/items/LowryNelson1stPresidencyExchange/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf  https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wordpress.com/exploring-the-divinity-of-the-ban/  The post Mormonism LIVE: 109: The LDS “Mormon” Church’s Teachings on Sex appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

RFM and Bill take a deeper look at the “Book of Mormon” and compare what we know about it with what we know about other books to see if it is as un unique as believers claim it to be and we even get Mormon Scholar, Brian Hales opinion on the matter. This past week on Mormonism LIVE we covered “Automatic Writing” in the episode, Mormonism LIVE: 108: Is The Book of Mormon Unique? A Great Article to read that delves into this in regards to its connection to Mormonism is here – https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/050-16-26.pdf Here are the connections between Smith’s “Translation” of the Book of Mormon and the data behind automatic writing. 1.) Some of the Authors within “Automatic Writing” seemed to have a serious lack of education 2.) Their writings contained details that indicated antiquity that the author couldn’t of known ( [O]ne time while he [Joseph] was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered ‘Yes,’ he replied ‘Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.”) 3.) Able to discern things about the foreign lands and times that had a degree of accuracy to them. 4.) many “Automatic Writing” examples contained significantly less anachronisms than the book of Mormon 5.) “Automatic Writing” authors used a peep stone or crystal 6.) “Automatic Writing” authors moved away from a peep stone which they needed at first to being able to translate without one. 7.) Many of the significant “Automatic Writing” productions were Christian themed 8.) Some contained the voice of Christ 9.) Many were done by dictation 10.) At Least one stated its purpose was to answer three big questions “Where did we come from”, “Why are we here”, and “Where are we going”? 11.) Many of these productions were significantly longer than the “Book of Mormon”. 12.) many proposed to claim they were being given by voices of ancient people from antiquity 13.) several “Automatic Writing” authors were able to stop and take breaks and pick up exactly where they left off without being reminded where they were. ( According to Emma, when she and Joseph were interrupted during his translating, Joseph would later resume on the very sentence from which he had left off ) 14.) numerous others found the “”Automatic Writing” to be believable 15.) numerous people found the “automatic writing” productions to be of a high quality of writing. For example Jane Eyre is believed to have been written this way. 16.) numerous others found some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions to be inspiring and worth basing one’s lived spirituality on. 17.) some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions were written to a world audience with revealed knowledge important to Salvation 18.) some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions seemed to pass the tests of appearing to be from antiquity and contained little to no contemporary material. (compare to the amount of 19th Century material in the Book of Mormon). 19.) much of the “Automatic Writing” productions claim to be channeling a divine source. (Gift and Power of God) 20.) Many “Automatic Writing” productions seemed to be beyond the competency of the person performing the “Automatic Writing”. 21.) some “Automatic Writing” productions were not only done by dictation but also had many words spelled out specifically 22.) many “Automatic Writing” productions contained really deep gems that were thought provoking. Poems, and passages that seem inspiring generally. 23.) reading “Automatic Writing” productions caused awe and wonder in their readers. (they essentially felt the spirit reading them) 24.) many “Automatic Writing” productions get a ton of things onto paper quickly such as 5000 words in a single evening ( Starting on April 7th, 1829, Joseph Smith began translating the Book of Mormon. He completed his translation on July 1st of that year—just 90 days! That makes for an average of about 8 pages per day. )   Hence Joseph Smith as an “Automatic Writer” makes incredible sense and has significant overlap and suggests that the Translation of the Book of Mormon is both NOT Unique, and NOT even that good compared to other examples of “Automatic Writing” such as these * The Sorry Tale – https://archive.org/details/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/page/n6/mode/2up * The Urantia Text – https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online * The Course in Miracles – https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/A_Course_in_Miracles_Text.pdf * Jane Eyre – https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1260/1260-h/1260-h.htm RESOURCES: https://archive.org/details/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/page/78/mode/2up https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1542&context=jbms#:~:text=Some%20critics%20of%20the%20Book,claimed%20communi%2D%20cations%20with%20spirits https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V52N02_1.pdf https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/050-16-26.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/A_Course_in_Miracles_Text.pdf https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/glastonbury-abbey.htm https://gospeltangents.com/2021/10/automatic-writing-bill-davis/ – This is the the source for the three minute clip with Brian Hales talking about automatic writing. This segment is from an interview by Rick Bennett on his video podcast “Gospel Tangents” on the episode titled “Automatic Writing/Bill Davis’s Visions of Seer Stone” The post Mormonism LIVE: 108: Is The Book of Mormon Unique? appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Sheri Dew recently gave a Devotional Talk titled “Prophets Can See Around Corners” at BYU Hawaii on Nov 1st 2022. Bill and RFM take a deep look into this talk to see if what sort of apologetic tricks and absurd claims Sheri Dew makes this time around. Make some hot chocolate, grab a slice of fruitcake, and sit down by the fire, because Reel and RFM are going to fill your stockings with some Christmas Tidings and Apologetic Fallacies and Yuletide Cheer. RESOURCES: Sheri Dew’s Talk – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqFKbnzuF-M Gordon B Hinkley’s 1998 Priesthood Talk – https://youtu.be/J2mcY_SkZSI President Nelson Not Knowing about Covid Coming – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/11nelson?lang=eng President Nelson’s Stated Impetus vbehind the #HearHim – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/the-story-behind-my-global-prayer-of-gratitude?lang=eng The post Mormonism LIVE: 107: Sheri Dew You Know – A Not So Christmas Special appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

This week we explore DezNat or a loosely connected group of folks who claim to be Deseret Nationals. We explore their violent rhetoric and their problematic ideology and we even have a former DezNat follower to help us add context to this story. #DezNat RESOURCES: Wiki DezNat – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DezNat DezNat Twitter – https://twitter.com/DeseretNation DezNat Exposed – https://exposedeznat.noblogs.org/ DezNat Exposed Twitter – https://twitter.com/exposedeznat REFERENCES IN THE SHOW: The Corbridge Manuever Part 1 – https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/03/radio-free-mormon-057-the-corbridge-manuever-part-1/ The Corbridge Manuever Part 2 – https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/03/radio-free-mormon-058-the-corbridge-manuever-part-2/ Wrong Roads – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/05/extra-radio-free-mormon-wrong-roads/ Nancy Rigdon & The Happiness Letter – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUtmzt3fJc     The post Mormonism LIVE: 106: DezNat Exposed appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Since 1830 Mormonism has, as likely a part of it’s persecution complex, used violent rhetoric and has taught its members to use violent means. That rhetoric either leads to further violence or at least creates safer spaces for violence to occur. Today we look into Mormonism Past and Present to expose a history wide pattern of Mormon Leaders Encouraging Violence. RESOURCES: Boyd K Packer “To Young Men Only” – https://archive.org/details/ToYoungMenOnly/page/n15/mode/2up?view=theaterWiki Temple Penalties – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_(Mormonism)#The_Nauvoo_endowment_and_FreemasonryChurch acknowledge Joseph Smith Approved the Danites – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=engOath of Vengence – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeanceJournal of Discourses Brigham Young encouraging Murdering adulterers & “Blood Atonement” – https://www.josephsmithfoundation.org/journalofdiscourses/speakers/brigham-young/instructions-to-the-bishops-men-judged-according-to-their-knowledge-organization-of-the-spirit-and-body-thought-and-labor-to-be/Wilford Woodruff Journal Where Brigham Approves of the “Mountain Meadows Massacre” – https://wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/documents/d3d712e1-2719-4efa-8d2d-b2dfda74f9fb/page/7f604d11-2494-4a3b-9497-35b60e0149b0The Bishop Warren Snow castration story – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Castration-2.pngMarion G Romney suggesting it better for one to come home in a casket rather than lose one’s virtue – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1981/09/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=engMark E Peterson repeating Romney’s sentiments – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/12/SacrificeYourLife.mp3Elder Holland suggesting defenders of the faith pick up muskets and aim them at those who oppose the Church – https://youtu.be/tg36L1989Ss?t=1223Year of Polygamy Podcast “Culture of Violence” – https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Quinn-The-Culture-of-Violence-In-Joseph-Smiths-Mormonism-w-notes.pdf The post Mormonism LIVE: 105: When Mormon Leaders Encourage Violence appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

What happens when a Member of the LDS Church stands opposed in a sustaining vote of Church leaders, follows the process the Church has laid out around “common consent”, and shows conclusively that current LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have lied to the members. Well, you are about to find out, because Nemo does just that. RESOURCES: President Nelson lying about his flight – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz4iQk1M9l4 Elder Ballard’s being dishonest about hiding things – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/11/radio-free-mormon-021-elder-ballard-blows-church/ 1832 First Vision Account – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGSKhHQttrs Elder Oaks Electroshock Hoax – https://youtu.be/0m5qRse2K5M Elder Holland lying on repeated occasions including prop 8 – https://youtu.be/QyFsy2zQf04 Adam God – https://youtu.be/neaa9rw9ySs Gaslighting from LDS Leadership including Ballard on not knowing where inviting to be baptized at the 1st discussion came from – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TVGzjEd5GE Additional Lies How Leaders repeatedly compromise themselves – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxidgOPpAxM Past Leaders lying repeatedly over polygamy – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VZFzK4jBZE OTHER RESOURCES Common Council – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Council_of_the_Church The post Mormonism LIVE: 104: Captain Nemo VS The LDS Church appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

As a follow-up to episode 101 on the Third Convention, Thomas Murphy joins us to add clarity and context to all the ground we covered and to add details that make this story even more interesting. RESOURCES: The First Part – Video Version – https://youtu.be/Gmjk3Kht0S8 Slide Show used by Prof Murphy in this episode – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/Third-Convention_-Other-Stories.pdf Thomas W Murphy | Edmonds Community College – Academia.edu Reinventing Mormonism: Guatemala as Harbinger of the Future? – Dialogue Journal Zapotec Natural History | UAPress (arizona.edu) (PDF) ‘Stronger than Ever’: Remnants of the Third Convention. | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu (PDF) Fifty Years of United Order in Mexico | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu (PDF) From Racist Stereotype to Ethnic Identity: Instrumental Uses of Mormon Racial Doctrine | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu (PDF) Other Mormon Histories: Lamanite Subjectivity in Mexico. | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu (PDF) Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu (PDF) Decolonization on the Salish Sea: A Tribal Journey back to Mormon Studies | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu The Spiritual Evolution of Margarito Bautista – Elisa Eastwood Pulido – Oxford University Press (oup.com) Dr Elisa Pulido discusses Margarito Baustista, Nahua Mormon, with Dr Thomas Murphy – YouTube The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Mexico | SpringerLink Unboxing the Fernando R. and Enriqueta Gomez Mormon Mexican History Collection (Exhibit Extended!) – The Claremont Colleges Library NEH Summer Institutes Program – Claremont Mormon Studies (cgu.edu) Conferences – Mormon Studies – The University of Utah (PDF) An Insufficient Canon: Popol Wuj, Book of Mormon, and Other Neophyte Scriptures | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu The post Mormonism LIVE: 103: Thomas Murphy on the Third Convention appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

What is the greatest problem in the LDS Church? That question is at the heart of this week’s episode. Jim Bennett is our guest this week on Mormonism LIVE, as we explore this question and some of the territory surrounding it. The post Mormonism LIVE: 102: The Greatest Problem In The LDS Church appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

Apostasy is something the LDS Church show serious concern over. And why shouldn’t they knowing James Strang, Lorin C. Wooley, Denver Snuffer, Julie Rowe all have led Splinter Factions of one sort or another that have had influence over segments of Latter-day Saints. The idea that a few voices or even a single voice can sway large groups of people into disaffection has the Brethren always on guard. But often the heart of the issue is the lack of listening on the part of the Leaders themselves who can in fact be their own worst enemy. We dive into one such story where LDS Leadership and those they call to preside often become their very own stumbling block as we discuss “The Third Convention”. Mormonism LIVE: 101: The Third Convention (Mention Plagiarism) Rey Lucero Pratt   Born October 11 1878 PRATT’S PARENTS Pratt was born in Salt Lake City, Utah Territory, the fourth child of Helaman Pratt and Emmeline Victoria Billingsley Pratt.   When Rey was nine, the Pratts moved to Mexico to help settle Colonia Dublán, a Mormon colony in the northern state of Chihuahua. His father was settling in Mexico to escape being prosecuted by the United States federal government for practicing polygamy (Note to the audience that Helaman is a polygamist and has more than one wife). Rey grew up in Mexico, learning to appreciate its history and people.  Somewhere along the way he and at least some of his siblings became mexican citizens  REY PRATT & ORSON F WHITNEY & Hyrum Harris Apostle Orson F. Whitney set Pratt apart as a missionary on 4 October 1906. On 1 November, Pratt arrived by train in Mexico City and reported to the mission home. He served for nearly a year under mission president Hyrum S. Harris, during which time he presided over the Toluca conference for seven months. Then, on 25 August 1907, Harris announced that Pratt would replace him as president of the Mexican Mission. Pratt was set apart by Harris on 29 September and the Pratts moved to Mexico City shortly thereafter.  Pratt started as president of the Mexican mission in 1907.  Church membership in Mexico more than doubled during Pratt’s first six years as mission president. By 1911, over a thousand church members lived in the Mexican Mission.  THE CRISTERO REBELLION [ Cristero Rebellion, a peasant uprising from 1926 to 1929, pushed Mexico to the brink of political chaos. The Cristeros generally saw the conflict as a religious war against the anticlericalism of the Mexican government. This anticlericalism originated in northern Mexico, where North American-style entrepreneurs, Protestant converts, and ambitious politicians built a movement to transform their traditionally Catholic nation into a center of secular economic expansion. The movement’s leading proponent, Plutarco Elías Calles (president of Mexico, 1924–1928), placed rigid regulations on the church, including required registration of priests and the closing of church schools. The church responded with a strike—the cessation of religious services—which caused a panic among the faithful. In Jalisco and the surrounding states of central Mexico, this panic sparked a peasant rebellion. Government claims that the rebels were superstitious tools of scheming priests were largely propaganda. Only about 45 of the 3,600 priests in Mexico supported the rebellion. The Cristeros were indigenous and mestizo peasants whose motives for rebellion were mixed. Most acted to defend their faith against an expansive secular state, while others seized the opportunity to demand more extensive land reform] – https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/cristero-rebellion  The Cristero rebellion of 1926 had disrupted the religious atmosphere in Mexico for nine years and forced all foreign clergy out of Mexico. (The rebellion was instigated as a response to an executive decree by Mexican President Plutarco Elías Calles to strictly enforce Article 130 of the Constitution, a decision known as Calles Law. Calles sought to eliminate the power of the Catholic Church in Mexico, its affiliated organizations and to suppress popular religiosity.)  However, Mexico’s political climate gradually worsened. Porfirio Diaz, Mexico’s longtime dictator, lost control of the government and revolution ensued. Shortly after serious fighting began in Mexico City in 1913, the church’s First Presidency authorized the Pratts and the American missionaries to return to the United States. The Pratts moved to Salt Lake City in September 1913. Two years later, the First Presidency again instructed the Pratts to move, this time to Manassa, Colorado, and establish missionary work among Mexicans in the United States. After five years, in November 1918, church leaders moved the mission headquarters to El Paso, Texas, making it closer to the center of the vast mission territory. In March 1921, Pratt reopened missionary work in Mexico with eight missionaries. In November, jurisdiction of the Juárez Stake in Chihuahua was transferred to the Mexican Mission. This made Pratt president of all the church’s Spanish-speaking organizations. He continued to expand the mission, opening up work in southern California in 1924 and establishing a Los Angeles branch.  What this means for the Mormons is that their connection to Salt Lake is partially severed.  The mexican Saints have no direct liaison to Salt Lake outside of mail and they must lead themselves inside the country.  Rey Pratt the sort of local (As he had lived in Mexico off and on since he was 9 and had Mexican Citizenship)  serving as the Mission President is the highest ranking leader they will have direct contact with for a almost a decade.  And Rey seems to be well respected and manages keeping the Church there on track and growing. LOCAL LEADERSHIP MAP Rey L. Pratt was a much loved mission president. When Pratt was assigned in 1924 to help open the Church’s mission in Argentina, (next Slide 7) he appointed Isaias Juarez to preside over the central Mexican District, with Abel Paez and Bernabe Parra as his counselors. These three men maintained stability and confidence in the small branches in Mexico. The branches survived their isolation from Salt Lake City and some even flourished. But much of the Church members and leader’s stability depended on Rey Pratt’s guidance and direction.  Pratt was also responsible for creating a new translation of the Book of Mormon into Spanish; he also translated many of the hymns of the church into Spanish. EY PRATT (Death) Disaster struck on April 14, 1931 following an operation for an intestinal rupture (appendicitis) and Rey L. Pratt died in Salt Lake City.  Antoine Ridgeway Ivins Antoine Ridgeway Ivins was appointed to replace Rey Pratt. Ivins showed no interest in his new appointment. For nearly a year he never paid a visit to Mexico nor did he communicate with the leaders or members there. The Mexican Saints get together (The first Convention) and request the Church do something about the lack of leadership they are getting from Salt Lake and wished for a native born leader.  The fact that they received no support nor a response to their petition for a native born mission leader increased the chasm. (He wasn’t lazy, just didn’t prioritize the Mexican Saints) Antoine Ivins and Melvin J Ballard Finally in the spring of 1932, nearly a year after his appointment as Mexican mission president, Antoine R. Ivins traveled with Elder Melvin J. Ballard to Mexico to meet with the petitioning Mexican Mormons (I believe this trip was in response to what is now understood as the 2nd Convention). IVINS AND JUAREZ Ivins approached the situation aggressively. He reprimanded the members for their assertiveness in sending a petition to Salt Lake City. President Antoine Ivins returned to the United States and left them alone once again. A silent arrangement between President Ivins and President Isaias Juarez continued through the end of Ivins term in 1934. Harold Wilcken Pratt The Cristero rebellion of 1926 had disrupted the religious atmosphere in Mexico for nine years and forced all foreign clergy out of Mexico. The ensuing isolation of the Mexican Mormon leaders from Church headquarters in Salt Lake City resulted in an understandable independence among them. Twice during Ivins serving as Mission President, the Mexican Saints had petitioned Church Headquarters to call a Mexican Citizen as Mission President  Seeing they have a mess on their hands the Church releases Antoine Ivins in 1934 and calls Rey Pratt’s half brother Harold Wilcken Pratt as the new Mexican Mission President.   While Pratt had lived stateside most of his life he was born in Mexico July 16th 1899 and had served a mission in Mexico 1921-1923.  Besides that he is Rey Pratt’s half brother.  With that mustache what could go wrong?  Harold Wilcken Pratt [son of Helaman Pratt and Bertha Wilcken Pratt] was called to preside over the Mexican mission on January 1934 as clergy had recently been re-admitted into Mexico by the Mexican government. He presided for two and a half years from El Paso while he simultaneously continued to serve as counselor in the Juarez Stake Presidency.] Harold Pratt along with Abel Paez and Margarito Bautista (Valencia) The Mexican Saints independence away from Salt Lake’s Church Leadership and having a defunct Mission President in Ivins who failed to connect the local Saints to SLC’s Church Leadership, along with strong feelings of nationalism and ethnic pride persuaded several local leaders in and around Mexico City, to organize.  Soon after news of Harold W. Pratt’s appointment reached Mexico City, Abel Páez, first counselor in the Mexican district presidency, was at work. Spurred on by his uncle, Margarito Bautista (Valencia), he summoned the Saints to a crisis conference now called the Third Convention.  Who is Margarito Bautista Born in Mexico 1878 June 10, he converted to the Church Nov 10th 1901 in what he describes as a very spiritual experience.  He has his conversion show up Stateside in the Improvement Era.  Margarito Bautista was one of the most articulate members of the Church in Mexico. Bautista, a member for many years, was an experienced leader in the Church and was an ordained high priest. He had known and admired Rey L. Pratt.   Bautista was an uncommonly literate man and a gifted orator who had worked to educate himself, studying English and living for many years in Salt Lake City, where he taught the Spanish-American branch’s Gospel Doctrine class in Sunday School. He had observed Church government over a number of years and had done ordinance work in the Salt Lake Temple. Like many temple workers, Bautista had become an expert genealogist.  After 1934 he was back in Mexico helping the Mexican Saints trace their ancestry.  Bautista took to heart many Book of Mormon prophecies that speak of the rise of the Lamanites. An avid scriptorian, he agreed with Rey L. Pratt and numerous other leaders that Mexican history was inseparable from Lamanite history and that Book of Mormon promises were inseparable from both.   Rey Pratt had often expressed this theology to the Mexican Saints, many of whom took great pride in their mighty Lamanite ancestors. Bautista, stimulated by Rey Pratt’s sentiments, decided to write a book correlating Book of Mormon teachings with the Old Testament.   Pratt, who was anxious to see more literature become available to the Mexican members, encouraged Bautista.  Even after Pratt’s death, Bautista persisted, completing his manuscript in 1934.   Isaias Juarez (District President) who was part of the first two Conventions is apprehensive about the preparations for this 3rd Convention “Sensing his people’s mood, Isaias Juárez, president of the mission’s Mexican district, was alarmed by their preparations for the Third Convention. He could see the implications perhaps better than anyone, having struggled through nine years and many storms to lead the mission. Juárez had learned to read the pulse of the Mexican Saints accurately. He knew this would be no simple petition; quite a few Mexican Mormons were determined to settle for nothing less than a Mexican leader, however unusual even odd, such a demand was for Mormons, whose authorities are always appointed from above, never “selected” by the congregation. Juárez also sensed accurately the mood of the authorities in Salt Lake City, he knew there would be no Mexican mission president forthcoming. The church, he reasoned, would not succumb to pressure politics, and he foresaw an unfortunate and inevitable clash.” Juarez comes up against Paez Isaias Juarez siding with the Church tried to dissuade Abel Paez out of confronting the Brethren in Salt Lake.  Juárez was no passive fence-sitter. Having taken a position against the Third Convention, he then tried to soothe and persuade the Mexican Saints. Finally he issued a circular letter explaining that the meeting was unauthorized and out of order and that those who participated in it would be considered rebellious and therefore run the risk of excommunication. He contacted Harold Pratt posthaste and tried to sensitize him to the impending trouble and its roots. He met repeatedly with Abel Paez, trying to dissuade him. Paez waffling  Juarez at first convinced Paez to call of his confrontation with Salt Lake but Paez returned to his position after speaking to Margarito Bautista The Third Convention The Third Convention convened on 26 April 1936. An observer was sent to take notes for Presidents Juárez and Pratt who did not attend. The Conventionists quickly decided that the Salt Lake City leaders had misunderstood their previous requests. Even though Harold Pratt had come from the Mormon colonies and was a Mexican citizen, he was not one by blood and race and certainly not one culturally. The Saints’ new petition was intended to convey their desire for a president who was Mexican by blood and spirit (de raza y sangre). Reasoning that the church’s General Authorities might not be aware of qualified Mexican members, the Third Convention decided to nominate a candidate. They considered several men, including Narciso Sandoval and Margarito Bautista. In the end, however, the convention settled on Abel Páez. They did not intend to demand Páez’s appointment but rather to clearly inform the Salt Lake City authorities that qualified Mexicans were available. After making their main decision, the Conventionists strengthened their petition in two ways. 1st wanting their leaders to recognize their intense seriousness, they agreed to gather signatures for the petition. 2nd, the Conventionists authorized a commission composed of Abel Páez, Narciso Sandoval, and Enrique González to travel to Salt Lake City and personally present the petition and supporting documents to the Mormon church’s General Authorities. Its business concluded, the Third Convention then adjourned.” Observer reports back When the Observer reported back to Harold Pratt and Isaias Juarez that Paez had gone through with the convention and relayed the outcome, Isaias Juárez wept hearing that his counselor of many years had betrayed him.  “Harold Pratt realized that the Mexican brethren would soon implement their decisions. Seeking to prevent that, Pratt immediately contacted Abel Páez. They set a meeting for 30 April, the Thursday following the convention.” The Meeting On the appointed day Abel Páez met with Pratt, Juárez, and Bernabé Parra, the second counselor in the district presidency. After a long discussion, the men agreed on four points: 1st, Páez would terminate the Third Convention’s activities, including the gathering of signatures for the petition. Moreover, Páez would thereafter take no unilateral action on any matter without the district presidency’s consent, a hallowed leadership practice within the Mormon faith. 2nd, to show their unity and harmony, the four leaders- Páez, Juárez, Parra, and Pratt, would together visit all the local branches. Third, each would send a separate report of the Third Convention to the First Presidency of the Church. Fourth, all would prepare to visit Salt Lake City soon to discuss the Mexicans’ feelings and desires with the General Authorities. The upcoming October general conference was set as a tentative date for the trip. Bur Pratt and Juarez Broke their Agreement Páez was to be disappointed. As the district presidency visited the various branches, Pratt and Juárez seemed to equivocate on their position. Pratt said that he alone would take the petition to Salt Lake City at conference time. Then, instead of assuring church members that Third Convention desires would be enacted through regular church channels, Juárez and Pratt made it increasingly clear that both the convention’s procedures and its goals were out of order. They suggested that Páez and his colleagues were wolves among the Lord’s sheep and warned all members against listening to them. Mainline Mexican Mormons, approximately two-thirds of the membership, had made their anti-Third-Convention opinions known to Juárez and Parra, and no doubt Pratt had received communications on the issue from Salt Lake City. In any case, Conventionists were incensed. They wondered how Páez could believe that Pratt would do anything but present the Third Convention’s case negatively.  With Pratt and Juarez having broke the agreement and called out Paez and others as being in apostasy, Paez had no choice but to feel tricked and betrayed.  Also Harold Pratt seemed to lose what little trust he had left with a significant number of the Mexican Saints. Paez felt he had little choice but to move forward with the original Third Convention’s ruling The Aftermath Almost One Third of the Mexican Saints disaffect.   Salt Lake in turn moved forward with Pratt as the Mission President and 2000 of the mexican saints remained with the mainline faith in spite of many of them sharing frustration with Pratt and the Church generally.  The Third Conventionists maintained belief in Salt Lake’s Leadership and continued at least early on practicing Mainline orthodox Mormonism.  But simply waited on Salt Lake to meet their demands.  J Reuben Clark Letter In November of 1936 the First Presidency formally responded. J. Reuben Clark, Jr.,a member of the First Presidency and former U.S. Ambassador to Mexico prepared a carefully written letter to be read in all the congregations. Within, Clark declared that the people who signed the convention’s petition were entirely out of order; that the mission president was not the representative of the members to the president of the church but of the president to the people, and that this representative should therefore be acquainted with all the church procedures in order to prevent disorder and disruption; that none of the church’s missions were presided over by any other than men from the bosom of the church; that if the president of the church ever felt so inspired he would appoint one of their number to preside over them; that Mexicans had an unusual number of their own people in responsible positions anyway; that the Mexicans were not exclusively (among Mormons) of the blood of Israel, and that both Mexicans and North American Mormons were from the same family (that of Joseph); that all of the Book of Mormon’s promises applied as well to one people as to another, and so on for fourteen typescript pages.  But this doesn’t seem to fix the issue Salt Lake Tries Again though seemingly being tone deaf The First Presidency themselves learned quite soon that the letter had solved nothing. No doubt somewhat exasperated by this time, the authorities decided to send Antoine R. Ivins to Mexico one more time to attempt a reconciliation. Although Ivins was considered the church’s frontline expert on Mexico, his previous trips there had been largely unsuccessful because, as he perceived, the Mexican Mormons did not respect his authority (And Because he was an absent Leader). So Apostle George F. Richards, one of the senior members of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, was appointed to accompany Ivins.  What Could Go Wrong? Outcome of that Visit Apostle George F Richards  & Antoine R. Ivins never address the people and are put back on a train fearing they will be arrested by Mexican Officials.   LDS Leaders misunderstood the 3rd Convention as imposing Paez be called rather than showing there were several worthy Mexican Nationals who potentially could be called and hence had a tone of distrust and misunderstanding and magnified the situation.   The Church begin Disciplinary measures.  On 6, 7, and 8 May 1937, courts were convened in San Pedro Mártir and the sentences handed down. Andres C. Gonzalez Jr. wrote that eight Conventionist leaders were excommunicated for rebellion (having worked against the mission authorities), insubordination (having completely disobeyed the orders of mission authorities), and apostasy (having failed to recognize the Mormon church’s authority).   A Serious divide ensued between those loyal to the mainline Church and the third Conventionists.  Distrust and bad mouthing persisted and eventually deep separation between the two groups followed.  Hence an apostasy of ⅓ of the Mexican Saints What Happened to the Third Conventionists They organized Sunday Schools, conducted sacrament meetings, established “Mutual Improvement Associations” (MIA, the church’s youth organization), and functioned very much like a normal Mormon congregation. Like the mainline church, they blessed infants, baptized children, and ordained men to the priesthood.   Conventionist men and women were sent out as missionaries to “preach the word” to all who would listen.   Constructed at least six new meetinghouses and, in accordance with Mormon custom, dedicated them to the Lord.   Produced some religious literature, for example; a magazine entitled El Sendero Lamanita (The Lamanite Path), which contained articles such as “How the Gospel Came to Mexico” and “The Blessed Gentiles about which the Scriptures Speak,” and reports of various convention conferences and activities Efforts to bring them back into the fold Finally the Church sees its hardline approach doesn’t work.  And under George Albert Smith’s presidency the effort to love these saints and to show kindness and to interact with them in healthy ways begins to make headway Arwell Pierce Arwell Pierce was a month short of being sixty years old when he entered Mexico as mission president.  Given his age, some wondered if he would be up to the task of holding the Church together in Mexico, a challenge that had taxed a series of mission presidents beyond their capabilities. Actually, Pierce’s age may have worked in his favor; the problems in Mexico called for someone with patience, wisdom, insight, and compassion—characteristics frequently associated with maturity and possessed in good measure by President Pierce.  Pierce’s assigned task was to bring Third Conventionists back to the fold. President David O. McKay had told him that “we don’t have a divided mission; we have a big family quarrel,” adding that “you are the Abraham Lincoln who must save this union.”  Arwell Pierce observed that their reasons for apostasy were certainly not doctrinal, and yet Conventionists were outside the community of the Church. Studying the situation, he wondered how brotherhood could have decayed so completely. During the five years since the schism, the issues had become clouded, remembrances diffused or altered, and passions changed. Slowly and painstakingly, he put all his diplomatic skills to the task. Realizing that feelings had been hurt, he set out to heal those wounds. Although the Conventionist’s initial response was antagonism,that soon changed—first to respect and later to admiration, in part because Pierce met every travail with kindness and understanding. Pierce began by attending Third Convention meetings and conferences. Slowly and carefully, he introduced himself and built friendships with Third Convention members and leaders. He even tried to assist the Convention in its own programs, inviting its members to the mission home to pass on information from Salt Lake City, giving advice when asked, and distributing recently translated Church literature. And he talked with Abel Páez and his wife, also Othón Espinoza, Apolonio Arzate, Julio García, and even Margarito Bautista, all of whom had been principal leaders in the Third Convention. Always ready to listen and to understand, he extended personal hospitality and acceptance unconditionally. After weighing all that he had heard, Pierce concluded that the Third Convention problem could have been handled better. Given the circumstances, he even thought that some of the Convention’s complaints were justified. Although having an ethnic Mexican mission president was the Third Conventionists’ primary concern, they also wanted a building program for chapels, access to Church literature, and an opportunity for their young people to go on missions—all privileges that members in the U.S. had. They also wanted an educational system for their children like the system that the Anglo members had established in northern Mexico. Pierce realized that he did not object to the Conventionists’ goals, although one could legitimately wonder how programs to achieve them could possibly have been funded in the 1930s. On the other hand, he saw how the Third Conventionists’ methods for achieving their goals had brought them trouble. Pierce did not approve of the Third Convention’s rebellion and withdrawal from the Church. Because of his willingness to listen, however, disagreeing people, for the first time in nearly a decade, were discussing the issues rather than shouting about them. In the meantime, the Conventionists had generally maintained doctrinal integrity, had done a lot of proselyting in central Mexico, and had promoted much interest in the Book of Mormon. Given all of these factors, reunification was possible and desirable. So Pierce listened, argued, lectured, sympathized, persuaded, and worked long hours. He often told them “the brethren are willing to give you everything you want, but not the way you want it.”  The Conventionists recognized him as a friend, its leaders even asking him to speak in Convention conferences. He did so, carefully honoring their confidence in the initial stages by avoiding sensitive issues, speaking instead on “neutral” subjects such as prayer. The Third Conventionists began to visit mainline Church meetings, and Pierce characteristically asked them to sit near the front whereas in years past, when Conventionists had visited a mainline branch, the seats would empty of mainline members as quickly as the Conventionists sat down. Finally, Páez began to soften and warm up to Pierce and started to think with cautious enthusiasm about reunification. They return to the fold Eventually 1200 Third Conventionists returned under George Albert Smith’s Leadership in 1946  Several members of the Third Convention were temporarily excommunicated by the LDS Church during the period in which it was active, although most of these were changed to the lesser punishment of disfellowshipment by President George Albert Smith in 1946, signaling a compromise. Rapprochement continued with President Smith’s visit to Mexico that year, resulting in most Third Conventionists returning to the fellowship of the LDS Church. One last loose end SIX NEW MEETING HOUSES? Though scholars had believed the Third Convention movement had died out by the 1970s and ’80s, anthropologist Thomas W. Murphy located an active Third Conventionist community in Ozumba, Mexico in 1996. The group was situated in Colonia Industrial, founded in 1947 as the community of Margarito Bautista, a prominent Third Conventionist. As of 2011, there are 800 people living in Colonia Industrial, and all are members of a church officially named “El Reino de Dios en su Plenitud” (The Kingdom of God in its Fullness), though adherents preferred to call themselves “Mormons.” The group practiced plural marriage and communal principles of the law of consecration, and seemed to be moderately affluent. They were affiliated with the Apostolic United Brethren Mormon fundamentalist church, and saw Owen Allred as a prophet.   Another Third Conventionist group about 300 strong, also rediscovered by Murphy in 1997, exists in San Gabriel Ometotztla, Puebla. It is called La Iglesia de los Santos de la Plenitud de los Tiempos (The Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Fullness of Times).   SLIDE SHOW for this Episode – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/The-Third-Convention.pdf   RESOURCES: https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/global-histories/mexico/stories-of-faith/mx-03-a-division-in-the-church?lang=eng https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Convention https://web.archive.org/web/20080907191615/http://www.orsonprattbrown.com/MexicanMission/third-convention.html https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=130069006013112011119070120069002031034018053020030049097003103125124101002069088122020018034045018032097090109029113124110079044016056009084006119098002029102121123003034034024027067003069086126073078079091000110096123064119084011086021080095079125006&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_Mexico https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1972/09/mormons-in-mexico-the-first-96-years?lang=eng  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarito_Bautista https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_family_histories/helaman-pratt/photos-bertha.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey_Pratt  https://mx.laiglesiadejesucristo.org/historia-de-la-iglesia-en-mexico/pioneros/narciso-sandoval http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cristero-2.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4OgI2xuItQ https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-was-the-cristero-war.html  http://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_family_histories/helaman-pratt/joseph-pratt.html https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/margarito-bautista-1878?lang=eng http://labola.com.mx/la-bola-3/zapata-donde-se-unen-los-colores/  https://www.jstor.org/stable/43040563#metadata_info_tab_contents https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/a-shepherd-to-mexicos-saints-arwell-l-pierce-and-the-third-convention/  https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/collection/cms/search/searchterm/Fernando%20R.%20and%20Enriqueta%20Gomez%20Mormon%20Mexican%20History%20Collection/field/event/mode/exact/conn/and The post Mormonism LIVE: 101: The Third Convention appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

To celebrate our 100th episode, we invite all of you to join us as we take a look back at the past 99 episodes and share which have been most meaningful and which are our favorites and we will be taking calls from you our listeners and letting you share with us which ones meant the most to you! The post Mormonism LIVE: 100: 100th Episode Super Show appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

On this week’s episode we take a deeper look at the 1826 trial in Bainbridge, NY. We examine what led to the trial, what witnesses claimed, what we know about the trial proceedings, how Smith and Stowell got introduced to each other, and a few other interesting facts along the way that make this such an interesting episode in Church history. This outline was used in preparation for Mormonism LIVE: 099 : The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith, The Glass Looker – https://youtu.be/A2JxyoOtNlM On this week’s episode we take a deeper look at the 1826 trial in Bainbridge, NY. We examine what led to the trial, what witnesses claimed, what we know about the trial proceedings, how Smith and Stowell got introduced to each other, and a few other interesting facts along the way that make this such an interesting episode in Church history. A.) SET THE STAGE Spring of 1825, Joseph Smith is at Simpson (Simeon in some records) Stowell’s home in palmyra when Simpson’s father Josiah Stowell visits him and Joseph Smith uses his seer ability, presumably the stone in the hat and proceeds to amaze those in attendance with a couple of “Remote Viewing” performances such as describing Josiah’s house and outhouses correctly while all of them are at palmyra and Stowell’s property for which presumably Joseph Smith had never seen, is located in Bainbridge NY Josiah Stowell, so amazed at the Prophet’s ability, hires him to both work the farm and to lead treasure digs near Stowell’s property in NY (SLIDE 1) Several Members of Stowell’s family, Joseph Smith Jr. and Sr., Isaac Hale and other members of the Hale family and a few others make a “mining” agreement on Nov 1st 1825 (SLIDE 2 & 3) and the Church agrees it is Authentic Joseph Smith is living on Stowell’s property for about half a year working the farm and doing these treasure digs but they are finding absolutely nothing and these digs are failing at every turn. Members of Stowell’s family along with others in the community perceive that Stowell is being taken advantage of and on March 20th 1826 Joseph Smith is brought before the court on charges of being a “disorderly person and an imposter” The trial is first printed in Fraser Magazine February 1873 Edition and then reprinted again in the Utah Christian Advocate January 1886 Edition (SLIDE 4 & 5) Frasers Magazine 12 July 1873 http://www.fullerconsideration.com/images/frasersmagazine08unkngoog_0243-0244.jpg (Document page 229 [pdf 248]) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-docket-entry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 B.) Where does the author in Fraser’s Magazine locate this trial record? In Bainbridge? Nope. From enemies? Nope. Rather from an old lady in Salt Lake City who kept records of Joseph Smith’s altercations with the Law. (SLIDE 6) It gets worse though because the Utah Christian Advocate says this was taken directly from the record books of a bainbridge justice of the peace by a daughter or niece (suspicion since he doesn’t know) who tore the record out of the books and the author claims he verified. (SLIDE 6) C.) Capt’n Kidd W.D Purple is in 1877 in the Chenango Union is giving us info about these treasure Digging activities and implies that Stowell is looking for Capt’n Kidd’s treasure. Notice the implication that Stowell knows the story of Capt’n Kidd – hence we should expect that Joseph is informed about said stories too. Not appropriate to start with the assumption he may not have known them. More rational to start with he did. (SLIDE 7) According to J. H. Kennedy, Joseph “made confession” that the autobiography of Captain Kidd “made a deep impression upon him.” Kennedy does not say in what context Smith made this “confession.” Palmyra native Philetus B. Spear recalled in an 1873 interview that as a boy Joseph “had for a library a copy of the ‘Arabian Nights,’ stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels.”89 Pomeroy Tucker also mentions Joseph’s youthful fascination with Captain Kidd, Stephen Burroughs the counterfeiter, and others, noting that such stories “presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions.”90 Ellen E. Dickinson similarly wrote: It is said that Joseph at an early age could read, but not write; and when quite young committed these lines to memory from the story of Captain Kidd, the notorious pirate, which seemed to give him great pleasure: “My name was Robert Kidd, As I sailed, as I sailed; And most wickedly I did As I sailed, as I sailed.”91 D.) The Proceedings themselves Living w/ Stowell (5 Months) most of the time and a small part of time out looking for mines. But mostly farm work and going to school Some quotes indicate that Smith used treasure digging as a way to get out of farm work while still bringing in the needed income. Had been employed to work at the farm part time E.) Joseph Smith claims he is in Bainbridge “spending a small time looking for mines but mostly working for Stowell on the farming and “Going to School” He is 20/21 during the time of these digs. What school would a frontier adult go to that he could be speaking of? College/university? Trade School? F.) He mentions his seer stone and his seeing ability. Work had slowed down because this line of work was bad for his eyes. They were sore He was turning down most work But with stowell he found some “oar” (ore) that looked like gold But its not gold…. So why is such promising? They would find a tail feather though not the buried treasure that was supposed to be with it. (Could the foretold item have been planted by Smith before or during the dig? Does this not best explain what is happening?) He describes Stowell’s house and outhouse from Palmyra while staying at “Simpson Stowell’s” (Is this a relative of Josiah? Sources claim this is Josiah’s son) Could Stowell’s son have described Josiah’s property at an earlier time? Could Joseph have had enough info to make an educated guess? (This is how psychics work) G.) Testimony of Others Horace Stowell testified Arad Stowell Testified Pretends to read a book with his back turned to the book, with the book open lying upon a white cloth, while using the stone This seems significant as if it points to a photographic memory and that as far as an outside observer could tell, he is doing the same sort of “translation work” as he did with the Book of Mormon Rather than exclude all light he instead places his stone near a candle Several seem disgusted as the fraud was so noticeable that they said it was palpable (almost a physical knowledge that he was a frauding them) McMaster said Joseph claimed if he held his stone to the sun or candle (excluding light hurt his eyes so he declined to use the hat and instead choosing instead the Sun (or a candle) Johnathon Thompson – Joseph told them where a trunk was buried and they dug 5’ and (someone or the group) heard the shovel hit what sounded like a plank or board. “Two indians had buried the chest” – Lamanites. Joseph’s tales already have “Indians” involved. These indians fought and one killed the other and buried him in the hole “to Guard It”. Isn’t Moroni a guardian Spirit of the same sort? (SLIDE 11 then back to 12) Below is a second hand report of how Joseph Smith Sr. described his son’s interaction with Moroni He believes without seeing a chest that he certainly must of hit it (most rational explanation in his mind for the sound) in spite of it sinking into the earth but as outsiders can we see how irrational that perspective is. That a sound can provide one a conclusion in spite of needing magic in order to not see what should have been there and visible? The trunk stayed at distance, just out of reach to touch or to be seen. Isn’t that convenient “Salt might be found in bainbridge” Stolen items, ancient treasures, salt deposits Thompson believes JS can discern with his stone and hat “Witness lost some money and Joseph was able to describe the man Witness thought had taken it.” H.) Court Costs The costs themselves Court Charges: (Is this all in cents?) Court found defendant guilty Cost warrant – 19 cents Complaint upon Oath – 25.7 Witnesses – 87.5 Recognizince – 25 Mitimus – 19 Recognizince for Witness – 75 Subpoena – 18 TOTAL? $2.68 (verified by the docket commentary on such in next section) IF THIS PROCEEDING IS TRUE, LDS APOLOGISTS STATE IT WOULD BE THE MOST DAMNING EVIDENCE AGAINST MORMONISM The Mormon writer Francis W. Kirkham just could not allow himself to believe that the 1826 court record was authentic. He, in fact, felt that if the transcript were authentic it would disprove Mormonism: “A careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence…. had he [Joseph Smith] made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church. (A New Witness For Christ In America, vol. 1, pages 385-387) “If a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person — unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality — if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him…. How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been the superstitious fraud which ‘the pages from a book’ declared he confessed to be?” (Ibid., p. 486-487) The noted Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley published a book in which this statement appeared: “…if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith.” (The Myth Makers, 1961, page 142) On the same page we read that such a court record would be “the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered.” Because he could see the serious implications of the matter, Dr. Nibley tried in every way possible to destroy the idea that the court record was an authentic document. I.) Additional Documentation Neeley’s Fee Bill – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-circa-9-november-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 (SLIDE 13) Why this is important – Because once we find the additional documentation that verifies $2.68 as the total, we add credibility to the trial proceeding retelling (SLIDE 14) 2nd Fee Bill – Philip M. De Zeng https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 (SLIDE 15) J.) Surrounding Statements that shape our perception Oliver Cowdery claims Joseph was acquitted at the 1826 trial “Oliver Cowdery, who did not attend the hearing (he met Joseph Smith about three years later), mentioned the most likely result in light of missing documentation, that Joseph was acquitted of being a disorderly person.” (SLIDE 16) Cowdery may be confusing an 1830 trial that he took part in where Joseph actually was acquitted though the Church’s footnote makes sense to me. Should Cowdery’s non first hand telling be considered strong enough evidence to dismiss the alleged court proceeding? no Defer to RFM The first 1830 Trial – Court Case before Justice of the Peace Joseph Chamberlin, South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York: Constable Ebenezer Hatch arrested Joseph Smith on June 30, 1830, held him over night, and brought him before Justice Joseph P. Chamberlin on a charge of being a disorderly person. Abram Willard Benton, the man who filed the disorderly person complaint against Smith in 1830, also wrote an account of this 1830 trial.8 Benton also relates Stowell’s testimony: (https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm) Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive anybody else. (SLIDE 17) “Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain place which he mentioned? Yes. Did he tell you, you could find it by digging? Yes. Did you dig? Yes. Did you find any money? No. Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you? NO, the money was there, but we did not get quite to it! How do you know it was there? Smith said it was. ( A. W. Benton, “Mormonites,” Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, p. 120, as reprinted in Francis W. Kirkham, A New Witness for Christ in America*, (Brigham Young University, 1959) II:467-468)* This is called circular reasoning and it is exemplified by Kerry Muhlstein (soundbite) “It is reported, and probably true, that he commenced his juggling by stealing and hiding property belonging to his neighbors, and when inquiry was made, he would look in his stone, (his gift and power) and tell where it was.” Remember the Miners hill episode where in the “Mormon Cave” were found various animal remains and debris or items. (I think every instance of claims that Joseph Smith found lost property through a seer stone should note the most rational explanation is something other than the supernatural or magic.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4qiP2hZtcA Compare to the feather story – Could Joseph have hid the feather before or during the dig? How’s that not the most rational answer especially in light of not finding the treasure that went with it. SECOND 1830 TRIAL(actual newspaper article) – https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm (easier to read transcript) Church description “that he had been acquainted with Smith, the prisoner, for several years; that prisoner pretended to look in a certain glass, or stone, and said he could tell where stolen goods were, and could discover mines of gold and silver under ground (THOUGH NONE EVER FOUND); made some pretence at telling fortunes, but he, witness, never knew of prisoner’s finding any thing by his pretended art.” Harris Stowell “hid a bag of grain in his barn, told Smith he had lost a bag of grain, and wished prisoner to find it; prisoner looked in his glass in vain, for he could not find it; prisoner, after using all his art for a number of days, offered to give witness’ brother fifty cents (so his brother told witness,) to find where the grain was, and tell him, prisoner, unbeknown to witness, so that Smith, the prisoner, might have the credit of finding the grain.” – https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm Again we have Joseph Smith allegedly using deception to to give off the impression that he can find lost items. Could not Joseph Smith have employed a similar tactic to have Simpson Stowell describe his father’s property so that Smith could later imply supernatural ability in describing Josiah Stowell’s farm? The 2 1830 Trials (Only important as Cowdery said Smith was acquitted and likely was misremembering the 1830 rather than 1826 https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm K.) Other Interesting data points Ronald Jackson, a believing member forged a reprint of Wesley Walters discovery of the 1826 court docket http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm. Why does Jackson feel the need to do this? Because he believes the original is damning to Mormonism. CONCLUSION: Witness testimony implies that Joseph never found any treasure and that while many believed him to have real power, it was them accepting such on his word with either no results OR the belief on others that he had deceptively created the appearance of supernatural ability Setting up the deception so that objects could be hidden and then discovered later under alleged magic Through stealing property and then locating it for the victim Placing items in places to be found later Bribing individuals to give him information that he could then “reveal” to others later (feather but not the accompanying treasure, stolen items, bribing a person’s family to tell him where their loved one hid the thing When the rubber met the road and Joseph had any ample opportunity to actually locate something of value, he came up empty every single time. RESOURCES: http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=GP-T26 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng https://www.shields-research.org/General/LDS_Leaders/1stPres/Joseph_Smith/1826_Trial_Walters.htm https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/joseph-smith-and-the-1826-trial-new-evidence-and-new-difficulties/ https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1504&context=byusq https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-circa-9-november-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-docket-entry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/220141943.pdf https://www.jstor.org/stable/45225965#metadata_info_tab_contents https://watermark.silverchair.com/45227184.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAArowggK2BgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKnMIICowIBADCCApwGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMUJ6sRlPRmWN-EOEsAgEQgIICbdN47lit91anjntjBGUirES28IfmW249Mm-oEc8iXOiv-KT6ryM16M0YSHmj1vHN8Gs1h78CZnAg_3SwoPAA_MN5WDxWWN3WZ2S9TYVhhgbciCC6-VrApRswCYJLnhapCnHNEw6e-MUOPyF6LwbkwWG3VVMcWtO73IRWV8zy89aeTsy13t_uJZlJoT0pmIXhsM6rE5KULGjqEKAW97gaAW9NMJhWNBvS3ayJGcCEfimJ7GqN4FGZjItkOLzK0a49Sqg5oBHDvxi2L5l5KE3LSDwDGlU0Ux2hayjmJw1mUpiW0b-KUT8FuDmxxiPGQCGpWnghWKOf3kQaZs8CqVBFTMakXSaBplrw-kJMyEF7Lt7hDxOHdMx0L4lplEujRkQSAPbd299bOgKy3PCDWstnbGckbLLXW_2P2g17dhd4WQFLGpedntbWdTMinZHY4hfHxCF2qCLjFH54aSGGTe286zslE7Uv4AHZJco0LGO15tkDsju2wplN4hRmRe9YCLKBtJY6SMWwOuquJ1cuzMuKUVeL6bcowdP4cb9foLRLXT4PdEeBjilU9pd3MJDNeLLDWgYHwVSdHEfa5ZPBususc1DXIZgJGwhF9zkT3gNgIkCQrUlZGugMJKgbCp-k5sdLSDrhpsPzek8Mz3ss6KqMQY3wRvoDMx9oT5OT-NMG9qKYKws-xvmYzgc6ufxmQsV3IAOd0DlBeylpJgQyDqQr0r5GGDK2R2W5BMFBseh4hPxEBDn_OX204I_VzxkyMxCRVf20p06j2Apu6h8henels8KeYM66zinNRVB33i4Zv7FW0L4hoWRZHkzEqGKTcQ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-1-agreement-of-josiah-stowell-and-others-1-november-1825/1 http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/48 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letters_by_Oliver_Cowdery_To_W.W._Phelps_on_the_Rise_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints/Letter_VIII https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/107 https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2287&context=byusq The post Mormonism LIVE: 099: The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith The Glass Looker appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

In this Episode Bill and RFM will go into a story few members know about in regards to the Prophet Joseph Smith and one of his young plural wives. It involves some re-gifting, a land deal, and Harsh Measures T-Shirt Contest Voting takes place here – https://forms.gle/MzBroWzRvk7EFEpQ9 A.) Lucien Woodworth born April 3rd 1799 becomes a close associate of Joseph Smith around the year 1841 a.) Appointed aide-de-camp in Nauvoo Legion, May 1841 b.) Member of Nauvoo Masonic Lodge c.) Admitted to Council of Fifty, 11 Mar. 1844 d.) Traveled to Texas to negotiate with Sam Houston for possible Latter-day Saint settlement, 1844. e.) Sent by JS to deliver letter explaining Latter-day Saint difficulties to Illinois governor Thomas Ford, 22 June 1844. Married Phebe Watrous in 1825 and had at least 3 children (seen in 1850 Census) The oldest of those children is Flora Ann Woodworth born June 12, 1826 according to one genealogy site and November 14, 1826 according to Brian Hales B.) The Interactions between The Woodworth family and the Smiths generally March 31, 1843 ~ Friday On the 31 friday I spent the afternoon at Mr Lucian Woodworth’s in company with Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde, a Br Chase with our wives we had a feast of a fat turkey & had a good time (Before her Sealing to JS most likely) – C.) Strange Interactions with potential suitor nineteen-year-old Orange Wight (Son of Lyman Wight) pursued Flora Ann and is interrupted and offered a ride by Joseph Smith He wrote, “[Having just returned from a mission] I concluded to lo[o]k about and try to pick up one or more of the young Ladies before they were all Gone, so I commenced keeping company with Flora Woodworth… [We were walking near Joseph’s home when he (JS) rode up in a carriage and invited us to take a ride] D.) William Clayton records multiple visits by the Prophet to see young Flora Ann Woodworth March 31, 1843 ~ Friday On the 31 friday I spent the afternoon at Mr Lucian Woodworth’s in company with Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde, a Br Chase with our wives we had a feast of a fat turkey & had a good time (Before her Sealing to JS most likely) May 2nd: “Joseph rode out today with Flora W.”  June 1st: “Evening Joseph rode in the carriage with Flora.”  August 26th: “Hyrum and I rode up to my house and Joseph met Mrs. Wdth and F[lora] and conversed some time.”  August 28th: “President Joseph met Ms Wdth at my house.”  August 29th: “A.M. at the Temple. President Joseph at my house with Miss Wdth.” E.) Joseph Smith seems to be in the picture a lot but this is because 16 year old Flora Ann has by the Spring of 1843 become a plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith 1.) In the spring of 1843 Joseph Smith was sealed to 16 year old Flora Ann Woodworth According to Brian Hales “A March 4, 1843, entry in the Prophet’s diary appears to have been written “Woodworth,” which is crossed out and is difficult to discern. The name “Woodworth” appears interlineally above in shorthand, so it is possible they were sealed that day.” Those visits by Smith to Flora recorded by Clayton – they have already been sealed/married by then 2.) That story w/ Orange Wight…  here is the rest of the story “I was walking along the street with Flora near the Prophet’s residence when he, Joseph, drove, up in his carriage, stopped and spoke to I and Flora and asked us to get in the carriage and ride with him. He opened the door for us and when we were seated opposite to him he told the driver to drive on. We went to the [Nauvoo] temple lot and many other places during the afternoon and then he drove to the Woodworth house and we got out and went in. After we got in the house Sister Woodworth took me in another room and told me that Flora was one of Joseph’s wives. I was aware or believed that Eliza R. Snow and the two Partridge girls were his wives but was not informed about Flora. But now Sister Woodworth gave me all the information necessary, so I knew Joseph believed and practiced polygamy…Now as a matter of corse I at once—after giving her Flora/ a mild lecture left her and looked for a companion in other places, and where I could be more sure. I was now called on a mission to go up the river 5 or 6 hundred miles to make lumber for the Nauvoo house and Temple.” Mild Lecture Joseph gets him out of town sending him on a mission 500 to 600 miles away…. F.)  The Gift Giving of a Gold Watch Emma somehow becomes aware that Flora Woodworth has on her person a Gold watch which she comprehends is the Gold Watch of her Husband and the Prophet Joseph Smith (RFM to give most rational explanation).  We know this because William Clayton records the following “President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with E[mma] yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him and called while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F[lora]. He reproved her for her evil treatment.” No record exists of the exact date of the marriage or the gift-giving of the watch (According to Hales) The story implies that Joseph didn’t knowwhen dropping off emma at the woodworths that a conflict would ensue over the watch.  The Smith’s and Woodworths hung out a lot it seems so it likely it all seemed normal when he dropped Emma off RFM – when did Emma discover Flora had JS watch? Joseph seems to only figure out that he has been caught when he returns to pick Emma up and she is in the middle of a confrontation with Flora demanding the watch back How embarrassing for Emma Joseph seems to have a history of giving Gold watches to his plural wives The Prophet may have given a gold watch to several of his plural wives. Mary Ann Barzee Boice remembered that she was “acquainted with Eliza R. Snow Smith, his [Joseph Smith’s] wife and saw his gold watch which she carries.” Mary Ann Boice in John Boice and Mary Ann (Barzee) Boice “Record,” MS 8883, Microfilm of manuscript, 174. link to an image of the gold watch Joseph Smith gave to Eliza R. Snow  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eliza_R_Snow_pocket_watch_given_by_Joseph_Smith.jpeg G.) According to Clayton the argument that started when Smith showed up on the scene to find Emma in a confrontation with Flora continued on the carriage ride home and once the Smith’s got back to their home.  George D. Smith, ed., An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1995), 119. “President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with E[mma] yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him and called while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F[lora]. He reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home she abused him much and also when he got home. He had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but finally succeeded.” What are Harsh Measures in this context that could stop “the abuse” by Emma? This speaks volumes about how Emma might feel in this situation was disregarded.  How she isn’t seen as having a right to her hurt and anger. It addresses the quote from last week where Bednar suggests these women pursued Joseph for a sealing when the reality is that He pursued them.  It also runs counter to Bednar’s imposing these were adoptions and not marriages and certainly not sexual.  (Gold watch, Orange Wight, Emma’s being caught off guard)  We should spend a few minutes sorting this out) This instance demonstrates the brethren are either naive and ignorant and speak out of turn on such things or they intentionally play on the naivete and ignorance of members or a combination of both. Oh and what happened to the watch you ask – Seymour B. Young recalled in 1912 that Emma destroyed the watch: “The name of the Prophet’s plural wives [included] … Flora Woodward [sic] to whom he is said to have given a gold locket or watch which was stamped under foot by Emma.” – Seymour B. Young, Journal, April 2, 1912, CHL, restricted; excerpt copied in D. Michael Quinn Papers—Addition—Uncat WA MS 244 (Accession:19990209–c), Box 1—Card file—Topic: Polygamy, Joseph Smith’s Or is that what happened? – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLLtMuXtEPI Time Stamp 1.18.30 for a story about Joseph’s Gold Watch.   H.) Coincidence or Women scorned Flora apparently had a serious life event the very next day after the confrontation. The marriage index of Hancock County records Flora Ann marrying Carlos Gove, a non-member, the very next day after her confrontation with Emma. – Marriage of Flora Woodworth to Carlos Gove, August 23, 1843, in Marriage index of Hancock County, Ill., 1829–1849, Tri-County Genealogical Society, comp. (Augusta, Ilinois: Tri-County Genealogical Society, 1983), 19.  Helen Mar Kimball recalled a different chain of events: “A young man boarding at her father’s after the death of Joseph not a member of the Church had sought her hand, in time won her heart, and in a reckless moment she was induced to accept his offer and they eloped to Carthage, accompanied by a young lady friend, and were there married by a Justice of the Peace.” Helen Mar Whitney, “Travels Beyond the Mississippi,” Woman’s Exponent (November 1, 1884), 87; italics mine. This marriage is not listed in Lyndon Cook, Nauvoo Deaths and Marriages, 1839–1845 (Orem, Utah: Grandin Book Co., 1994), undoubtedly because his marriage records are extracted from Church publications and records. According to Hales – “The level of friendship between Gove and Flora prior to their legal marriage is unknown, but it is probable that Emma encouraged the nuptial” – and his evidence for that is “Emily Partridge recalled that Emma: “once proposed to a young man to ask Eliza [Partridge, Emily’s sister] to take a ride with him.” Emily Dow Partridge Young, “Incidents in the early life of Emily Dow partridge,” MS d 2845, fd 1, typescript in possession of the author.”   I.) And as I was digging into this story…… I found a couple more things Land Deed between Lucien Woodworth and Joseph Smith Mention the transfer of money into the hand of Joseph Smith of $250 Note that I am not saying there is anything odd about this Land deed But It is odd when juxtaposed against this Land Deed directly to Flora Ann Woodworth The Land Deed itself between Joseph and Flora Notice the date of May 13th 1843 is just two months after the “march 4th” possible sealing date between Flora and Joseph Notice it appears to be part of the same lot Notice the amount of $1000 Which 16 year old girl has $1000 Did actual money change hands or was Flora given land valued at $1000 as a inheritance for her marriage? My hunch is nothing was paid but the wording is a formality for a gift. Other Land Deals Land Deed to Sarah Ann Whitney – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-sarah-ann-whitney-6-september-1842/1 But then, of course, there was Sarah herself. Only seventeen years old at the time, and by all accounts well liked by her peers, this was an event that would change the course for her whole life. Even while she was initiated into the Mormon church’s inner circle, and linked forever to the faith’s prophet, she must have known that she risked alienation from everyday life. Could she survive as the secret wife of an already much-married man? There had to be compensation. Six weeks after the secret sealing, and two weeks after Smith’s request for a clandestine meeting, Smith deeded to Sarah a lot of land only one block from his own. It was rare for a woman to own land in Nauvoo, especially a woman as young as Sarah; indeed, it was so rare that whoever filled out the deed had to strike out “his” and write in “hers” to match the inheritor’s gender. FOOTNOTE 1 – While the land deed states that the property cost one thousand dollars, a figure slightly higher than most plots sold that year, it is very unlikely that Sarah herself paid that amount. It is possible that Sarah’s parents provided the money, or that Smith merely covered it himself but desired not to leave a paper” trail.https://benjaminepark.com/2017/10/16/sarah-ann-whitney-blessing/ Joseph Kingsbury (sham) marriage to Sarah Ann Whitney https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/marriage-certificate-for-joseph-kingsbury-and-sarah-ann-whitney-29-april-1843/1 Emma Smith Land Deed – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-emma-smith-and-others-12-july-1843/1  $10,000 Patty Bartlett Sessions – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-patty-bartlett-sessions-9-august-1843/1 Mary Elizabeth Rollings Lightner – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-mary-elizabeth-rollins-lightner-5-july-1843/1 Helen Mar Kimball – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-helen-mar-kimball-7-june-1843/1 Sylvia Sessions Lyon – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-sylvia-sessions-lyon-5-june-1843/1 Sarah Scott Mulholland – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-sarah-scott-mulholland-13-may-1843/1 Four years later [1843], Sarah is thought to have married Joseph Smith in a union concealed by her October 25, 1843, civil marriage to Alexander Mullinder –a ceremony performed by Apostle John Taylor.  On February 3, 1846, Sarah was sealed to Mulholland, Heber C. Kimball acting as proxy for her deceased first husband.  There are two reasons for concluding that Sarah was joined to Joseph for time and eternity.  First, in her 1846 sealing ceremony, she was identified as Sarah Smith, indicating a prior marriage to Joseph.  [NO FOOTNOTE OR REFERENCE.]  Second, in a biography of Heber Kimball, family tradition lists her among “the wives of the prophet” whom Kimball adopted as his own, 1844-46  –   George D. Smith, Nauvoo Polygamy: “… but we called it celestial marriage”, Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2008, 218. Sarah Scott, who had married James Mulholland (1810–39) in early1839, wed Alexander Mullinder/Mullander (born ca. 1810) civilly on October 25, 1843, with Apostle John Taylor performing the ceremony. Mulholland was probably a “front” husband to conceal Sarah’s plural marriage to Smith—much the same arrangement by whichSmith had authorized Joseph Kingsbury and Sarah Whitney’s “prete[n]ded marriage” on April 29, 1843. Scott was sealed to Mulholland for eternity and to Heber Kimball, not Mullinder, for time on February 3, 1846, in the Nauvoo Temple. The record of that ceremony identifies her explicitly as “Sarah Smith,” implying an earlier sealing to Joseph Smith – Gary J. Bergera, “Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought38, no. 2 (Fall 2005): 31 Elizabeth Buchannan Coolidge (Plural Wife)- https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-elizabeth-buchannan-coolidge-30-march-1843/1 Elizabeth Davis Durfee – (Brian Hales) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-elizabeth-davis-durfee-10-march-1843/1 Partridge Sisters – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-eliza-partridge-and-others-10-february-1843/1 Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-marinda-nancy-johnson-hyde-10-february-1843/1 Hyrum Smith’s Plural Wives Lydia Dibble Granger – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-lydia-dibble-granger-15-march-1843/1 Mary Fielding Smith – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-mary-fielding-smith-15-march-1843/1 J.) Other Interesting facts Flora’s marriage/sealing to Joseph happened right around the same time to Lucy Walker and Helen Mar Kimball  Speak again to Bednar’s imposition on JS’s Polygamy Joseph Smith, May 1844: “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.”  JOSEPH SMITH’S WIVES as of May 1844: Emma Hale, Louisa Beaman, Mrs. Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs), Mrs. Presendia Lathrop Huntington (Buell), Agnes Moulton Coolbrith (Smith), Mrs. Lucinda Pendleton (Morgan Harris), Mrs. Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner), Mrs. Sylvia Porter Sessions (Lyon), Mrs. Patty Bartlett (Sessions), Mrs. Sarah M. Kingsley (Howe Cleveland), Mrs. Elizabeth Davis (G. Brackenbury Durfee), Mrs. Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde), Delcena Diadamia Johnson (Sherman), Eliza Roxcy Snow, Mrs. Sarah Rapson (Poulterer), Sarah Ann Whitney, Martha McBride (Knight), Mrs. Ruth Daggett Vose (Sayers), Flora Ann Woodworth, Emily Dow Partridge, Eliza Maria Partridge, Almera Woodward Johnson, Lucy Walker, Sarah Lawrence, Maria Lawrence, Helen Mar Kimball, Mrs. Elvira Anna Cowles (Holmes), Rhoda Richards, Hannah S. Ells, Mary Ann Frost (Stearns Pratt), Olive Grey Frost, Nancy Maria Winchester, Desdemona Catlin Wadworth Fullmer, Melissa Lott, Sarah Scott (Mulholland), Mrs. Phebe Watrous (Woodworth), Mary Huston, Fanny Young (Carr Murray). (George D. Smith, Nauvoo Polygamy [2008]). Here are the wives of Joseph Smith who were under the age of 20: Fanny Alger (16); Sarah Ann Whitney (17); Flora Ann Woodworth (16); Lucy Walker (17); Sara Lawrence (17): Helen Mar Kimball (14); Nancy Winchester (14) K.) Sad Ending 1850 Census record of Flora – middle of the page That same year Flora was staying in Kanesville Iowa Never making it to Utah, Flora passed away in Kanesville, Iowa around 1850.  Helen Mar wrote, “I never saw her again as she died at that place, leaving two or three children.”  Flora would have been in her mid-twenties at the time.   RESOURCES: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-flora-ann-woodworth-13-may-1843/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-flora-ann-woodworth-13-may-1843/2 https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,58572 https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2muz15/some_of_my_issues_with_the_nauvoo_polygamy_essay/ https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/flora-ann-woodworth/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/flora-ann-woodworth-gove http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/19-FloraAnnWoodworth.htm https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/flora-ann-woodworth-24-1g3l7rw https://josephsmithfoundation.org/flora-ann-woodworth/ https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/flora-ann-woodworth/ https://s3.amazonaws.com/researchties-uploads-553de69e5551e9.40089907/18/32385-LR%203102%2027_f0004_00014.JPG http://nauvoo.byu.edu/ViewExtract.aspx?Record=1850Pop&ID=15928 http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/jsplural.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqcPHvVKaiU https://www.mormonmugs.shop/collections/flora-ann-woodworth-collection https://www.mixcloud.com/josephsmithspolygamy/bio-13-flora-ann-woodworth/ https://shemwellfamily.com/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I26226&ged=Shemwell https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/flora-ann-woodworth/ https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80764619/flora-ann-gove https://www.ldscleardoctrine.com/Doctrine-and-Covenants/Joseph-Smiths-Personal-Practice-of-Plural-Marriage.php https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Historical_Record/Is1LAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA224&printsec=frontcover http://www.withoutend.org/emmas-awareness-response-brian-hales-jmh-letter-editor/ This list the plural marriages around the same time  (should be an interesting read) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/lucien-woodworth (Father) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-lucien-woodworth-and-others-31-may-1843/1 (Deed to parents) May 1, 1843 Nauvoo, Illinois Joseph Smith paid Lucien Woodworth, general contractor, monies toward the building of the Nauvoo House. Sources: History of the Church,(link is external) Joseph Smith, 5:366, 372 March 31, 1843 ~ Friday On the 31 friday I spent the afternoon at Mr Lucian Woodworth’s in company with Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde, a Br Chase with our wives we had a feast of a fat turkey & had a good time http://www.joylogan.com/LDS/Parallel/1843/21Feb43.html Some book on Clayton’s recording plural marriage https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org/history/orange-l-wight/ https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1978-B39-The-Feuding-Gunsmiths-Of-Denver.pdf  https://mdpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2022/10/1843-Land-Plot.png https://benjaminepark.com/2017/10/16/sarah-ann-whitney-blessing/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers/documents The post Mormonism LIVE: 098: Gold Gifts, Deeds, & Harsh Measures appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.

A listener was able to have a candid chat with Elder Bednar recently and agreed to share with us how it went! This is part 2 of that conversation. Join us live! The post Mormonism LIVE: 097: A Chat w/ Elder Bednar Part 2 appeared first on Mormon Discussions Podcasts - Full Lineup.