No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is our unabridged interview with the Hillbilly Thomists. As we practice the good life with a bit of rest we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Lee’s summer staff pick—The Hillbilly Thomistis: Bourbon, Bluegrass, and The Bible. There aren’t many Billboard-charting bluegrass bands made up entirely of Catholic Dominican Friars, who play their shows clad in white tunics and rosaries. In fact, there is precisely one such band: the Hillbilly Thomists. “A Thomist is someone who follows the thought and theological teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas,” they explain. “We combine it with a little bit of humor about our human condition.” In this episode, they talk about their theology and vocation, as well as how they manage life on the road as priests who have taken a vow of poverty. Plus, they give live performances of some of their finest songs. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with the Hillbilly Thomists⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does our fascination with true crime say about us? This week, Lee and Savannah tackle listener questions. First up, they talk about the upcoming JonBenét Ramsey Netflix series, the line between justice and entertainment, and whether stories about evil can actually shape us for good.  Speaking of shaping us, how does city planning around data centers form our community and character? What about Israel's conquest narratives in the Old Testament and what they mean for modern conversations about colonialism? Pack your swimtrunks, folks, because we're diving beneath the headlines in this episode! Things we mentioned in this episode: The Calamity Club by Kathryn Stockett The Help by Kathryn Stockett Doris Day: Her Own Story by Doris Day Holler: A Poet Among Patriots by Danielle Chapman Danielle Chapman on No Small Endeavor Shipwrecked Nightmare at Sea on Netflix Why Women Find Watching True Crime Comforting by Jessica Grose for the NY Times The Problem of War in the Old Testament by Peter C. Craigie Is Social Media a Calling? The Subtext Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As we practice the good life with a bit of rest we asked four of our team members to choose one of their favorite episodes and explain why. Lee’s summer staff pick—The Hillbilly Thomistis: Bourbon, Bluegrass, and The Bible. There aren’t many Billboard-charting bluegrass bands made up entirely of Catholic Dominican Friars, who play their shows clad in white tunics and rosaries. In fact, there is precisely one such band: the Hillbilly Thomists. “A Thomist is someone who follows the thought and theological teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas,” they explain. “We combine it with a little bit of humor about our human condition.” In this episode, they talk about their theology and vocation, as well as how they manage life on the road as priests who have taken a vow of poverty. Plus, they give live performances of some of their finest songs. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with the Hillbilly Thomists⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Danielle Chapman. There is a fear that keeps most of us from looking too hard at where we come from: that we will turn over the wrong rock and find something we cannot carry. In the South, a holler is the tangled place on the riverbank you are told not to go. It is also a primal yell, and, as it happens, the sound Marines make.  Danielle Chapman is a poet, a lecturer at Yale, and the author of the memoir Holler: A Poet Among Patriots. She was raised largely by her grandfather, a four-star general and former Commandant of the Marine Corps, after her father drowned off the coast of Okinawa when she was three. She spent twelve years turning what began as a political critique of her past into something considerably more uncomfortable—a true telling that treats all involved as complex human beings. Key Ideas A Single Story Is Too Reductive The moment you decide someone's worst act is the whole truth about them, you've stopped being able to see anything else that's true. Be Curious Before You Judge Asking one more question is harder and more honest than settling for a verdict. Understanding Isn't the Same as Excusing Making sense of why someone did wrong doesn't require letting them off the hook for it. Facts Complicate Ideology The more you actually learn about a person or a history, the harder it gets to hold a tidy, one-sided verdict on either. Silence Is Inherited Too What a family doesn't say about its grief and its guilt gets passed down as surely as what it does say. Darkness Doesn't Get the Last Word Grace and atrocity can occupy the same family history without one canceling out the other. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Danielle Chapman Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can I just say something? No, really! What are the boundaries of free speech these days? The conversation continues between Lee, Savannah, and Jacob Mchangama, Founder and Executive Director of The Future of Free Speech. Whether you're a free speech absolutist, a skeptic, or somewhere in between, this episode will challenge your assumptions about the topic. Stay tuned for Lee and Savannah's debrief at the end of the episode!  And remember, if you want to keep engaging with the conversation in person, you're invited to The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit, Oct. 2-3, 2026.  Things we mentioned in this episode: The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026 Follow Jacob! Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/jmchangama) | X (https://x.com/JMchangama) | Instagram (https://instagram.com/JMchangama) Follow The Future of Free Speech! Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/futurefreespeech) | X (https://twitter.com/SpeechFuture) | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/futurefreespeech/) Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There is a fear that keeps most of us from looking too hard at where we come from: that we will turn over the wrong rock and find something we cannot carry. In the South, a holler is the tangled place on the riverbank you are told not to go. It is also a primal yell, and, as it happens, the sound Marines make.  Danielle Chapman is a poet, a lecturer at Yale, and the author of the memoir ⁠Holler: A Poet Among Patriots⁠. She was raised largely by her grandfather, a four-star general and former Commandant of the Marine Corps, after her father drowned off the coast of Okinawa when she was three. She spent twelve years turning what began as a political critique of her past into something considerably more uncomfortable—a true telling that treats all involved as complex human beings. Key Ideas A Single Story Is Too Reductive The moment you decide someone's worst act is the whole truth about them, you've stopped being able to see anything else that's true. Be Curious Before You Judge Asking one more question is harder and more honest than settling for a verdict. Understanding Isn't the Same as Excusing Making sense of why someone did wrong doesn't require letting them off the hook for it. Facts Complicate Ideology The more you actually learn about a person or a history, the harder it gets to hold a tidy, one-sided verdict on either. Silence Is Inherited Too What a family doesn't say about its grief and its guilt gets passed down as surely as what it does say. Darkness Doesn't Get the Last Word Grace and atrocity can occupy the same family history without one canceling out the other. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Danielle Chapman⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Annie Jacobsen. Wouldn't you rather not know how the world ends? Nine nations hold nuclear weapons, and every one of them is watched, counted, and deterred. A biological weapon needs no nation, no missile, and no submarine. The delivery system is a pair of lungs, and the barrier to entry is a working knowledge of biology and a computer. That asymmetry is why the journalist who wrote the definitive account of how the world ends in seventy-two minutes has spent the last two years on something that frightens her more. Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist and New York Times bestselling author who has spent more than fifteen years reporting on classified military and intelligence programs, reconstructing worst-case scenarios from the testimony of the people who built them. Her new book,⁠ Biological War: A Scenario⁠, follows⁠ Nuclear War: A Scenario⁠. She calls us to courage by reminding us that you cannot fix what you cannot face. Key Ideas Six Minutes to Decide What the nuclear chain of command actually looks like once a missile is airborne, and why the clock is the least of the problems. The Delivery System Is a Pair of Lungs Why a biological weapon needs no missile, no submarine, and almost no barrier to entry, and why that changes everything about who has to worry. What the Pandemic Actually Cost Us Jacobsen's argument that the most lasting damage of COVID was never counted in cases, and that we are still paying it. The Pope's Quiet Backchannel A story she learned at the Vatican about how the world once stepped back from the brink, and why almost no one was allowed to know. Old Men in Their Nineties What decades of interviewing soldiers near the end of their lives taught her about how a human being changes. Solution, Solution, Solution Her answer to the reader who finishes the book, decides the worst case is inevitable, and gives up. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie Jacobsen⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Most people who share misinformation already suspect it is false.  This is a short preview of Lee's conversation with philosopher Christian B. Miller, from Books You Should Know, our quarterly series on NSE+. His new book, The Honesty Crisis, skips the easy target of lying public figures to ask a harder question: what kind of people do we become when deception gets cheap, convenient, and almost impossible to catch? The full conversation is available now on NSE+, along with ad-free episodes, bonus content, and exclusive series.  Giveaway! Every NSE+ member is entered to win one of five copies of Christian's book, plus one of five signed copies of Lee's book Scandalous Witness. Every member is eligible, whether you joined three years ago or you join tonight. Entries close August 19th. JOIN NSE+ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nikki Minaj thanked Elon Musk for saving free speech, so naturally, Lee and Savannah had to phone a friend to learn more about what is going on. Jacob Mchangama, Founder and Executive Director of The Future of Free Speech sat down with The Subtext to discuss everything from social media and censorship to hate speech, political polarization, and the First Amendment. They examine the real costs of protecting speech we disagree with and why history suggests those costs may still be worth paying. Want to keep learning more? Well, you're in luck because Jacob's organization is hosting a summit in Nashville, TN this fall: The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026. Things we mentioned in this episode: Letters from a Stoic by Lucius Annaeus Seneca Europe Since Napoleon by David Thomson The Agency on Paramount+ Meditations by Marcus Aurelius Enchiridion by Gil Epictetus The Courage to be Disliked by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga M*A*S*H* on Hulu The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026 Follow Jacob! Facebook | X | Instagram Follow The Future of Free Speech! Facebook | X | Instagram Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wouldn't you rather not know how the world ends? Nine nations hold nuclear weapons, and every one of them is watched, counted, and deterred. A biological weapon needs no nation, no missile, and no submarine. The delivery system is a pair of lungs, and the barrier to entry is a working knowledge of biology and a computer. That asymmetry is why the journalist who wrote the definitive account of how the world ends in seventy-two minutes has spent the last two years on something that frightens her more. Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist and New York Times bestselling author who has spent more than fifteen years reporting on classified military and intelligence programs, reconstructing worst-case scenarios from the testimony of the people who built them. Her new book, Biological War: A Scenario, follows Nuclear War: A Scenario. She calls us to courage by reminding us that you cannot fix what you cannot face. Key Ideas Six Minutes to Decide What the nuclear chain of command actually looks like once a missile is airborne, and why the clock is the least of the problems. The Delivery System Is a Pair of Lungs Why a biological weapon needs no missile, no submarine, and almost no barrier to entry, and why that changes everything about who has to worry. What the Pandemic Actually Cost Us Jacobsen's argument that the most lasting damage of COVID was never counted in cases, and that we are still paying it. The Pope's Quiet Backchannel A story she learned at the Vatican about how the world once stepped back from the brink, and why almost no one was allowed to know. Old Men in Their Nineties What decades of interviewing soldiers near the end of their lives taught her about how a human being changes. Solution, Solution, Solution Her answer to the reader who finishes the book, decides the worst case is inevitable, and gives up. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie Jacobsen Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Malcolm Guite. A frightened knight, cornered in a castle he doesn't understand, grabs a spear he was warned not to touch and drives it into the king. And because the king and the land are one, the whole country goes barren. The rivers empty, the crops fail, nothing can be born. It's called the Dolorous Stroke, and poet Malcolm Guite first heard it at eight years old from his mother. When he protested that the knight didn't know what he was doing, that no world could work this way, his mother answered him: “I'm telling you this story because you need to know that you live in just such a world.” But there's a second half. The same spear that wounded the king is the only thing that can heal him. Guite is a poet, Anglican priest, life fellow of Girton College, Cambridge, and the frontman of a rhythm-and-blues band. His latest work is Merlin's Isle: An Arthuriad, a four-volume epic retelling of the Arthurian legends in ballad form, beginning with Galahad and the Grail. He's convinced these old stories are older and wiser than we are, that they know something we've spent a few centuries forgetting.  Key Ideas The Dolorous Stroke One rash act, one seized spear, and a whole land laid waste. The medieval image Guite thinks describes exactly where we are now. The Spear That Wounds Also Heals The strange logic at the heart of the Grail story, and why the cure has to come through the very thing that caused the wound. You Live in Just Such a World What Guite's mother told an eight-year-old about a world that can be undone by one frightened person, in the shadow of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Boy Who Read the Poem At sixteen, homesick and depressed, Guite reads Keats and walks out certain something had happened that brain chemistry could never fully explain. The Immense Relief of Being a Creature What happens when you stop having to be the be-all and end-all of everything, and why that turns out to be freedom rather than loss. Vulnerable Means Woundable The Latin root that reframes depression, love, and the whole shape of a good life. Love doesn't tower over. It comes down on the level with you. The Wasteland We're In Now How a barren medieval kingdom became, for Guite, a picture of disenchantment, ecological ruin, and a culture that's lost the thread of its own story. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Malcolm Guite Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when a retired theology professor walks into a party full of deconstructing twenty-somethings? It sounds like the start of a joke. But really. How do we show up for ourselves and the people we love when doubt and deconstruction enter the chat? This week on The Subtext, Lee and Savannah discuss one of the more defining conversations of modern faith: deconstruction. Whether you're asking big questions yourself or walking alongside someone who is, this episode is an invitation to keep showing up with curiosity, compassion, and hope. Things we mentioned in this episode: Of Grammatology by Jacques Derrida Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light: The Private Writings of the Saint of Calcutta ⁠40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS:⁠⁠ ⁠Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A frightened knight, cornered in a castle he doesn't understand, grabs a spear he was warned not to touch and drives it into the king. And because the king and the land are one, the whole country goes barren. The rivers empty, the crops fail, nothing can be born. It's called the Dolorous Stroke, and poet Malcolm Guite first heard it at eight years old from his mother. When he protested that the knight didn't know what he was doing, that no world could work this way, his mother answered him: “I'm telling you this story because you need to know that you live in just such a world.” But there's a second half. The same spear that wounded the king is the only thing that can heal him. Guite is a poet, Anglican priest, life fellow of Girton College, Cambridge, and the frontman of a rhythm-and-blues band. His latest work is Merlin's Isle: An Arthuriad, a four-volume epic retelling of the Arthurian legends in ballad form, beginning with Galahad and the Grail. He's convinced these old stories are older and wiser than we are, that they know something we've spent a few centuries forgetting.  Key Ideas The Dolorous Stroke One rash act, one seized spear, and a whole land laid waste. The medieval image Guite thinks describes exactly where we are now. The Spear That Wounds Also Heals The strange logic at the heart of the Grail story, and why the cure has to come through the very thing that caused the wound. You Live in Just Such a World What Guite's mother told an eight-year-old about a world that can be undone by one frightened person, in the shadow of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Boy Who Read the Poem At sixteen, homesick and depressed, Guite reads Keats and walks out certain something had happened that brain chemistry could never fully explain. The Immense Relief of Being a Creature What happens when you stop having to be the be-all and end-all of everything, and why that turns out to be freedom rather than loss. Vulnerable Means Woundable The Latin root that reframes depression, love, and the whole shape of a good life. Love doesn't tower over. It comes down on the level with you. The Wasteland We're In Now How a barren medieval kingdom became, for Guite, a picture of disenchantment, ecological ruin, and a culture that's lost the thread of its own story. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Malcolm Guite⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with W. Lee Warren. Can you change your brain? The anxious tendencies, the recurring grief, the patterns of rumination? Our guest today says you can. Dr. W. Lee Warren is a neurosurgeon and Iraq War veteran who performed 200 brain surgeries in a tent hospital during the war, came home carrying PTSD he wouldn't name for years, and later lost his 19-year-old son to murder. His book, The Life-Changing Art of Self-Brain Surgery, argues that the mind can reshape the very brain it thinks through, and that no grief, trauma, or lifelong pattern gets the final word on who you become. KEY IDEAS Feelings as barometer, not navigation: Why an alarming share of what you feel isn't tracking anything that's actually happening, and the small practice that changes how you respond to it. The 90% problem: Most of what you thought about today, you also thought yesterday, and that quiet repetition is busy building the exact brain you're convinced you're stuck with. Grief that refines instead of defines: What a father learns about resilience when the worst thing that ever happened to him threatens to become his whole identity. The fear you inherited but never earned: How trauma can travel three generations down a family line, and the study suggesting it can also be undone in one. Doing the hard thing on purpose: The small, unglamorous brain circuit that willpower actually runs on, and why making the bed can matter more than it sounds. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with W. Lee Warren Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do capitalism and hookup culture have in common? This week, Lee and Savannah unpack the viral Empire State Building skywalker stunt, exploring whether power is inherently corrupting. Lord of the Rings has finally entered the chat!  They break down a fascinating view on hookup culture, exploring how capitalism, attachment, purity culture, and our understanding of freedom all shape the way we think about sex and relationships. Things we mentioned in this episode: Do you really have a shirt from your town? Then Lee will wear it! Mail it to us: P.O. Box 50652, Nashville, TN 37205 Follow Lee on Substack! Skywalkers: A Love Story on Netflix The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien  The Republic by Plato Colton Barnaby's video on hookup culture Being Consumed by William T. Cavanaugh 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can you change your brain? The anxious tendencies, the recurring grief, the patterns of rumination? Our guest today says you can. Dr. W. Lee Warren is a neurosurgeon and Iraq War veteran who performed 200 brain surgeries in a tent hospital during the war, came home carrying PTSD he wouldn't name for years, and later lost his 19-year-old son to murder. His book, ⁠The Life-Changing Art of Self-Brain Surgery⁠, argues that the mind can reshape the very brain it thinks through, and that no grief, trauma, or lifelong pattern gets the final word on who you become. KEY IDEAS Feelings as barometer, not navigation: Why an alarming share of what you feel isn't tracking anything that's actually happening, and the small practice that changes how you respond to it. The 90% problem: Most of what you thought about today, you also thought yesterday, and that quiet repetition is busy building the exact brain you're convinced you're stuck with. Grief that refines instead of defines: What a father learns about resilience when the worst thing that ever happened to him threatens to become his whole identity. The fear you inherited but never earned: How trauma can travel three generations down a family line, and the study suggesting it can also be undone in one. Doing the hard thing on purpose: The small, unglamorous brain circuit that willpower actually runs on, and why making the bed can matter more than it sounds. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with W. Lee Warren⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Curtis Chang. What if our institutions, even the broken ones, are worth saving? Curtis Chang doesn't think you can understand American politics right now unless you understand one thing, and it isn't what you'd expect. It isn't policy or party. It's fear: an anxiety about future loss that “both” sides are quietly managing, with liberals afraid of having religion imposed on their lives and conservatives afraid of losing a tradition they love. Chang, the founder of ⁠Good Faith⁠ and co-author of The After Party with David French and Russell Moore, has spent his life as a bridge person, ever since he arrived from Taiwan at age three. Here, he and Lee trace that fear all the way down to our institutions, which Curtis argues are not systems to build up or tear down, but people, and therefore worth repairing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Curtis Chang⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Elon Musk became the world’s first trillionaire! If that doesn’t make you want to talk about money, nothing will. The world just got its first trillionaire in Elon Musk. While Lee and Savannah aren’t trillionaires, they’ve got their own stories to tell about money. This episode is an open conversation about what we’ve learned about money, what we’d do differently, and how Christians can think about money better. Things we mentioned in this episode: Anne-Laure Le Cunff (tiny experiments) on No Small Endeavor Unconditional on Apple TV Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe podcast Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if our institutions, even the broken ones, are worth saving? Curtis Chang doesn't think you can understand American politics right now unless you understand one thing, and it isn't what you'd expect. It isn't policy or party. It's fear: an anxiety about future loss that “both” sides are quietly managing, with liberals afraid of having religion imposed on their lives and conservatives afraid of losing a tradition they love. Chang, the founder of Good Faith and co-author of The After Party with David French and Russell Moore, has spent his life as a bridge person, ever since he arrived from Taiwan at age three. Here, he and Lee trace that fear all the way down to our institutions, which Curtis argues are not systems to build up or tear down, but people, and therefore worth repairing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Curtis Chang Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with James Kimmel, Jr. There's a grievance that keeps coming back to you: in the shower, in traffic, at two in the morning. You replay it, win the argument again and settle the score again. It feels like justice, but it never quite satisfies.  James Kimmel Jr. spent decades trying to understand that pull. At seventeen, he came within seconds of committing a mass shooting, then drove away and devoted his life to the question of why he had wanted it so badly.  Now on the faculty of Yale's medical school, he makes a startling, evidence-backed claim: revenge is a literal addiction. A grievance activates the pain network in your brain, and your brain reaches for the dopamine hit of payback. It's why mass shooters are "grievance collectors," and why social media, in his words, has become a grievance transmission machine. But there's a second half to the story. Forgiveness, he argues, is a wonder drug we're already hardwired to take, one that stops the pain rather than masking it and asks nothing of the person who wronged you. Lee is invited to try it on the spot during the interview, and you can hear what happens. Listen as they discuss James’ new book, ⁠The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction - and How to Overcome It⁠. Name the Grievance Revenge often begins with real pain, and recognizing that pain is the first step toward freedom. Understand Your Brain Kimmel explains how grievance activates the brain’s pain network and makes retaliation feel rewarding. Resist Revenge Culture From social media to entertainment, our culture often trains us to nurse grievances and seek payback. Forgive Without Excusing Forgiveness does not require pardon, reconciliation, or staying in unsafe relationships; it can be an internal act of healing. Practice Letting Go Imagining forgiveness, even briefly, can interrupt pain and open space for better choices. Heal the Common Good Kimmel suggests that forgiveness is not only personal medicine but a social good that can help communities flourish. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with James Kimmel, Jr.⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can creativity transform the darkness of your past? Lee sits down with Grammy-nominated songwriter Thomm Jutz to discuss his grandfather's suicide, apparently after he was unable to come to terms with the fact that he'd been a Nazi, a friend lost to alcoholism, and Carl Jung's aid in his life, all while sharing songs he's written that helped heal his own inherited darkness. This episode is a preview of a longer conversation. The full discussion is available in the NSE+ community. 👉 ⁠Join NSE+ HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean when a “clean” and “family friendly” comedian supports the UFC Freedom 250 fight, rubbing shoulders with unethical and greedy billionaires?  This isn’t really about Nate Bargatze. It's about all of us and the selective moral lines we draw. This week on The Subtext, Lee and Savannah wrestle with questions of public witness, private relationships, power, and consistency, looking to Jesus' encounters with both the oppressed and the powerful. In a world where every public act seems to communicate something, how do we live with integrity while practicing a morality that refuses to leave anyone behind? Things we mentioned in this episode: Scandalous Witness by Lee C. Camp Who Is My Enemy? by Lee C. Camp Mere Discipleship by Lee C. Camp Missing Me by Ayana Lage Biological War: A Scenario by Annie Jacobsen (episode out on No Small Endeavor July 27th!) Savannah's Substack article: "The toothless, selective moralism of a Nate Bargatze Christianity"  Musa al-Gharbi on No Small Endeavor Brother to a Dragonfly by Will Campbell The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James Cone Loretta Ross on No Small Endeavor 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's a grievance that keeps coming back to you: in the shower, in traffic, at two in the morning. You replay it, win the argument again and settle the score again. It feels like justice, but it never quite satisfies.  James Kimmel Jr. spent decades trying to understand that pull. At seventeen, he came within seconds of committing a mass shooting, then drove away and devoted his life to the question of why he had wanted it so badly.  Now on the faculty of Yale's medical school, he makes a startling, evidence-backed claim: revenge is a literal addiction. A grievance activates the pain network in your brain, and your brain reaches for the dopamine hit of payback. It's why mass shooters are "grievance collectors," and why social media, in his words, has become a grievance transmission machine. But there's a second half to the story. Forgiveness, he argues, is a wonder drug we're already hardwired to take, one that stops the pain rather than masking it and asks nothing of the person who wronged you. Lee is invited to try it on the spot during the interview, and you can hear what happens. Listen as they discuss James’ new book, The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction - and How to Overcome It. Name the Grievance Revenge often begins with real pain, and recognizing that pain is the first step toward freedom. Understand Your Brain Kimmel explains how grievance activates the brain’s pain network and makes retaliation feel rewarding. Resist Revenge Culture From social media to entertainment, our culture often trains us to nurse grievances and seek payback. Forgive Without Excusing Forgiveness does not require pardon, reconciliation, or staying in unsafe relationships; it can be an internal act of healing. Practice Letting Go Imagining forgiveness, even briefly, can interrupt pain and open space for better choices. Heal the Common Good Kimmel suggests that forgiveness is not only personal medicine but a social good that can help communities flourish. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with James Kimmel, Jr. Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Lee C. Camp. In a rare role reversal, No Small Endeavor host Lee C. Camp takes the guest seat as theologian and journalist Russell Moore interviews him about his book, releasing in paperback July 2nd, Scandalous Witness: A Little Political Manifesto for Christians.  Rather than offering a defense of Christian power in America, Lee reckons honestly with the ways Christians have often been bad neighbors, especially when faith has been reduced to “values” extracted from the story of Jesus and used to control others. Together, Lee and Russell explore how Christian witness might still serve the common good through humility, prudence, and the imaginative power of art. In a divided and weary public life, this episode asks what it would mean for Christians, and all people seeking the good life, to trade domination for service, despair for action, and ideology for the patient work of human flourishing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Lee C. Camp Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The paperback edition of Lee's book just dropped, and Savannah's got questions! Savannah and Lee are celebrating the paperback release of Scandalous Witness by working through the book’s big ideas: why Christianity is not a religion but a politic, liberalism, Romans 13, the dream of a Christian America, and, perhaps most important, why Lee can’t stand the word "countercultural.” Use code WITNESS40 for 40% off the paperback, and don't forget to enter the giveaway on Instagram. Things we mentioned in this episode: 40% OFF SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Use code WITNESS40. Code is good for 40% off the paperback of Scandalous Witness. Only valid when ordering on Eerdmans.com, only valid for USA shipping addresses. Code is good until end of 2026. ENTER TO WIN A FREE COPY: Follow @thesubtextshow and tag a friend to enter! Giveaway closes on Tuesday, July 7th, 2026 at 11:59pm CT.  ORDER SCANDALOUS WITNESS: Amazon | Barnes & Nobel | Bookshop.org | Eerdmans Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a rare role reversal, No Small Endeavor host Lee C. Camp takes the guest seat as theologian and journalist Russell Moore interviews him about his book, releasing in paperback July 2nd, Scandalous Witness: A Little Political Manifesto for Christians.  Rather than offering a defense of Christian power in America, Lee reckons honestly with the ways Christians have often been bad neighbors, especially when faith has been reduced to “values” extracted from the story of Jesus and used to control others. Together, Lee and Russell explore how Christian witness might still serve the common good through humility, prudence, and the imaginative power of art. In a divided and weary public life, this episode asks what it would mean for Christians, and all people seeking the good life, to trade domination for service, despair for action, and ideology for the patient work of human flourishing. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Lee C. Camp⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Allison Russell. How does someone turn a childhood marked by danger and loss into a life full of music, courage, and joy? Allison Russell’s life has been marked by trauma, survival, and a persistent return to beauty. After leaving an abusive home as a teenager and finding refuge in the streets and music of Montreal, she slowly discovered that art could become more than escape.  It could become a way to tell the truth and stay alive. In this conversation, Russell reflects on the making of her breakthrough album Outside Child, the ancestral stories shaping her upcoming memoir, and the hard-won practices of forgiveness, motherhood, and community that help her keep choosing joy.  Key ideas in this episode: Choose Joy Anyway Russell describes joy not as denial, but as a daily practice that can coexist with grief, trauma, and uncertainty. Transform Pain Through Art Music becomes a refuge, a release, and a way of metabolizing suffering into something that can help others heal. Recover Your Lineage Russell’s search for her biological father and Black family history reveals how ancestry can deepen identity, resilience, and belonging. Break Cycles of Harm Forgiveness, for Russell, is not excusing abuse but refusing to let vengeance determine the shape of her life. Practice Radical Belonging Her work in harm reduction and housing equality taught her that every person deserves safety, dignity, and loving kindness. Return to the Body Walking, running, yoga, nature, and music help Russell stay grounded while doing the difficult inner work of memoir and memory. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Allison Russell Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/NSE⁠! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’re doing a temperature check of different cultural artifacts, including the UFC Freedom 250 fight, open theism, the gift of anger, and skinny culture. This week on The Subtext, Savannah and Lee do a full cultural temperature check. They react to the UFC Freedom 250 chaos (yes, including that post-fight interview), dig into a listener’s question about Open Theism and whether God actually knows how the story ends, explore why anger gets genderized, and wade into the online debate around ultra-thin bodies and who gets to say something. It's theology, body politics, and combat sports…all in one episode! Just another day for us. Things we mentioned in this episode: The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul Please Use AI by Shawn Smucker Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke Suzanne Stabile on No Small Endeavor Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does someone turn a childhood marked by danger and loss into a life full of music, courage, and joy? Allison Russell’s life has been marked by trauma, survival, and a persistent return to beauty. After leaving an abusive home as a teenager and finding refuge in the streets and music of Montreal, she slowly discovered that art could become more than escape.  It could become a way to tell the truth and stay alive. In this conversation, Russell reflects on the making of her breakthrough album Outside Child, the ancestral stories shaping her upcoming memoir, and the hard-won practices of forgiveness, motherhood, and community that help her keep choosing joy.  Key ideas in this episode: Choose Joy Anyway Russell describes joy not as denial, but as a daily practice that can coexist with grief, trauma, and uncertainty. Transform Pain Through Art Music becomes a refuge, a release, and a way of metabolizing suffering into something that can help others heal. Recover Your Lineage Russell’s search for her biological father and Black family history reveals how ancestry can deepen identity, resilience, and belonging. Break Cycles of Harm Forgiveness, for Russell, is not excusing abuse but refusing to let vengeance determine the shape of her life. Practice Radical Belonging Her work in harm reduction and housing equality taught her that every person deserves safety, dignity, and loving kindness. Return to the Body Walking, running, yoga, nature, and music help Russell stay grounded while doing the difficult inner work of memoir and memory. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Allison Russell⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Hiya: Receive 50% off your first order on any of their products. Visit hiyahealth.com/NSE! The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Marisa Renee Lee. How do we learn to live with grief when healing takes longer than we hoped? Author and advocate Marisa Renee Lee learned about grief early, watching her mother move through years of illness before losing her to cancer. Years later, after becoming a mother herself and developing long COVID, Marisa found herself facing a new kind of uncertainty. One that reshaped her body, her work, and her understanding of hope. In this conversation, she reflects on grief, chronic illness, faith, joy, and the healing that becomes possible when we stop pretending we can carry everything alone. Key ideas in this episode: Choose Realistic Hope Hope does not have to mean pretending everything will be fine; it can mean committing to the next faithful action toward a better place. Make Space to Heal Marisa challenges a productivity-driven culture by reminding us that grief, illness, and uncertainty require time, attention, and real support. Ask for Help Healing becomes possible when we name our limits honestly and let other people carry pieces of the burden with us. Let Joy Do Its Work Laughter, beauty, concerts, television, family stories, and small daily pleasures can create room for the brain and body to process pain. Honor the Body’s Grief Loss is not just emotional; grief can affect the brain, weaken the immune system, and make ordinary tasks feel impossible. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Renee Lee⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the world feels like it's ending, some people buy bunkers, some people move to Argentina, some people stop reading the news entirely. How should Christians behave in the face of existential dread? Paradise got renewed for a third season, and we're using it as an excuse to ask a question we've all been quietly avoiding: how do you cope when the threat is real? In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into a Hulu thriller about who gets saved when civilization collapses, Annie Jacobsen's minute-by-minute account of nuclear war, a billionaire building escape routes out of the country he helped shape, and one man in Ohio who decided the only sane response was to stop paying attention entirely. What do we do with existential dread? For those of us with faith, what are we actually supposed to do with it? Things we mentioned in this episode: Kevin Morby Nuclear War: A Scenario by Annie Jacobsen Paradise on Hulu The Truman Show Allison Russell on No Small Endeavor Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do we learn to live with grief when healing takes longer than we hoped? Author and advocate Marisa Renee Lee learned about grief early, watching her mother move through years of illness before losing her to cancer. Years later, after becoming a mother herself and developing long COVID, Marisa found herself facing a new kind of uncertainty. One that reshaped her body, her work, and her understanding of hope. In this conversation, she reflects on grief, chronic illness, faith, joy, and the healing that becomes possible when we stop pretending we can carry everything alone. Key ideas in this episode: Choose Realistic Hope Hope does not have to mean pretending everything will be fine; it can mean committing to the next faithful action toward a better place. Make Space to Heal Marisa challenges a productivity-driven culture by reminding us that grief, illness, and uncertainty require time, attention, and real support. Ask for Help Healing becomes possible when we name our limits honestly and let other people carry pieces of the burden with us. Let Joy Do Its Work Laughter, beauty, concerts, television, family stories, and small daily pleasures can create room for the brain and body to process pain. Honor the Body’s Grief Loss is not just emotional; grief can affect the brain, weaken the immune system, and make ordinary tasks feel impossible. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Renee Lee⁠⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Hunter Prosper. What happens when caring for others costs you the ability to feel? During the COVID pandemic, Hunter spent his days caring for critically ill patients in the ICU. Over time, the emotional weight became overwhelming. He found himself pulling away not only from patients, but from friends, family, and even his own emotions. Then one day, desperate to reconnect with the world, he walked outside and struck up a conversation with a stranger. That simple interaction eventually became the viral project Stories From A Stranger, a series built around honest conversations with ordinary people about love, fear, meaning, loss, and what it means to be human. Key Ideas Silence Can Heal Hunter explains why meaningful listening often requires resisting the urge to interrupt, fix, or fill the silence. Connection Requires Vulnerability After COVID burnout left him emotionally numb, Hunter discovered that healing meant risking closeness again instead of avoiding it. Every Person Wants To Be Seen From ICU patients to strangers in the park, Hunter’s work reveals how deeply people long to feel heard and understood. Shared Emotions Unite Us While our stories differ, Hunter argues that emotions like grief, anxiety, love, and hope connect every human being. Authenticity Builds Confidence Hunter reflects on how embracing vulnerability — rather than performing strength — made him more grounded and secure in himself. Conversation Can Restore Humanity Through thousands of interviews, Hunter has learned that authentic conversation can transform loneliness into community and fear into compassion. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hunter Prosper⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When a cage fight lands on the White House lawn, it's worth asking… what exactly are we celebrating? On June 14, 2026 (Flag Day, Trump's 80th birthday, and the eve of America's 250th anniversary) the White House South Lawn will host something it never has before: a UFC cage fight. We're going beneath the spectacle to ask what it actually means when the symbols we use to celebrate a nation reveal something uncomfortable about who that nation has become. Things we mentioned in this episode: Nuclear War: A Scenario by Annie Jacobsen Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman Kin by Tayari Jones Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when caring for others costs you the ability to feel? During the COVID pandemic, Hunter spent his days caring for critically ill patients in the ICU. Over time, the emotional weight became overwhelming. He found himself pulling away not only from patients, but from friends, family, and even his own emotions. Then one day, desperate to reconnect with the world, he walked outside and struck up a conversation with a stranger. That simple interaction eventually became the viral project Stories From A Stranger, a series built around honest conversations with ordinary people about love, fear, meaning, loss, and what it means to be human. Key Ideas Silence Can Heal Hunter explains why meaningful listening often requires resisting the urge to interrupt, fix, or fill the silence. Connection Requires Vulnerability After COVID burnout left him emotionally numb, Hunter discovered that healing meant risking closeness again instead of avoiding it. Every Person Wants To Be Seen From ICU patients to strangers in the park, Hunter’s work reveals how deeply people long to feel heard and understood. Shared Emotions Unite Us While our stories differ, Hunter argues that emotions like grief, anxiety, love, and hope connect every human being. Authenticity Builds Confidence Hunter reflects on how embracing vulnerability — rather than performing strength — made him more grounded and secure in himself. Conversation Can Restore Humanity Through thousands of interviews, Hunter has learned that authentic conversation can transform loneliness into community and fear into compassion. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hunter Prosper⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Norman Wirzba. How does the pursuit of independence distort our understanding of the good life? Before Norman Wirzba became a theologian, philosopher, and public intellectual, he was a farm boy in Southern Alberta, waking before sunrise to tend to the land and animals in his care, and he says that these early experiences working with the natural world taught him one essential lesson: life does not exist on our terms. Now a professor at Duke University working at the intersection of theology, philosophy, and agrarian studies, Norman argues that modern culture has trapped us in an illusion of self-reliance, when the key to a good life may simply require a deeper understanding of our place in what he calls the meshwork world.  Key Ideas: See Beyond Self-Sufficiency Norman challenges the modern myth of the isolated individual and invites us to recognize how deeply our lives depend upon others. Let Care Shape Your Life Farming taught Norman that flourishing begins with patience, attentiveness, and responsibility toward living things. Rediscover the Sacred Ordinary Everyday realities, from baking a pie to tending animals, become windows into gratitude, beauty, and shared human creativity. Resist the Culture of Control The pursuit of frictionless living and technological mastery can erode our capacity for compassion, humility, and wonder. Practice Rest Rest is not just about stopping work, but making time to cherish one another. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Norman Wirzba⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We have a substitute teacher on today's episode! Lee is out of town, so Savannah called upon All the Buried Women co-host Beth Allison Barr to step in. The trad wife dream might look beautiful on camera, but what if you actually have to live it? What happens when a woman who sells the fantasy of "traditional" womanhood wakes up and has to actually live it? Using Yesteryear as a jumping-off point, Savannah sits down with historian and author Beth Allison Barr to dissect the trad wife movement, what it promises, what it erases, and what women actually lost before they had the legal right to say no. Things we mentioned in this episode: All the Buried Women podcast For All Mankind on Apple TV A Rome of One's Own by Emma Southon Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman The Five by Hallie Rubenhold Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Norman Wirzba. How does the pursuit of independence distort our understanding of the good life? Before Norman Wirzba became a theologian, philosopher, and public intellectual, he was a farm boy in Southern Alberta, waking before sunrise to tend to the land and animals in his care, and he says that these early experiences working with the natural world taught him one essential lesson: life does not exist on our terms. Now a professor at Duke University working at the intersection of theology, philosophy, and agrarian studies, Norman argues that modern culture has trapped us in an illusion of self-reliance, when the key to a good life may simply require a deeper understanding of our place in what he calls the meshwork world.  Key Ideas: See Beyond Self-Sufficiency Norman challenges the modern myth of the isolated individual and invites us to recognize how deeply our lives depend upon others. Let Care Shape Your Life Farming taught Norman that flourishing begins with patience, attentiveness, and responsibility toward living things. Rediscover the Sacred Ordinary Everyday realities, from baking a pie to tending animals, become windows into gratitude, beauty, and shared human creativity. Resist the Culture of Control The pursuit of frictionless living and technological mastery can erode our capacity for compassion, humility, and wonder. Practice Rest Rest is not just about stopping work, but making time to cherish one another. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Norman Wirzba The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit IGottaAsk.com to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Joe Vukov. What if AI’s greatest revelation isn’t about technology at all — but about us? Philosopher Joe Vukov joins Lee C. Camp for a conversation about artificial intelligence, human dignity, and the spiritual dangers hidden beneath our technological optimism. Drawing from philosophy, theology, neuroscience, and Catholic social thought, Vukov argues that AI exposes how modern culture has already reduced human beings to data processors, forgetting the importance of bodies, relationships, and rooted human presence. To hear more on this topic from Joe, along with other scholars and experts in the technology space, listen to our two-part series: The Human Cost of AI Part 1 - Money, Sex, and Tools ⁠https://pod.link/1513178238/episode/NjgzOWVkY2MtMmQzOC0xMWYxLTkzOTYtY2Y0MDMzMjMyMTVh?view=apps&sort=popularity⁠ Part 2 - What Is It All For? ⁠https://pod.link/1513178238/episode/MWE5OGRlOWEtMzJjNy0xMWYxLTlhNzEtYWI0YzMzZDZjOWI2?view=apps&sort=popularity⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for part one of our AI series⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You asked, we answered. From how Savannah and Lee became friends to whether Jesus is God (no big deal), this episode covers the questions YOU asked. We get into faith and doubt, how to stay hopeful when the world feels chaotic, what it looks like to do ministry well right now, and the books that have shaped us most spiritually.  Things we mentioned in this episode: Mere Christianity by CS Lewis New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton Markings by Dag Hammarskjöld The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence The Politics of Jesus by John Howard Yoder In Good Company: The Church as Polis by Stanley Hauerwas Bonus: Stanley Hauerwas on No Small Endeavor Brother to a Dragonfly by Will D. Campbell Who Will Be A Witness byDrew G.I. Hart The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James Cone Acts: A Theological Commentary on the Bible by Willie James Jennings Emilie Maureen Townes books A More Christlike Word by Bradley Jersak Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God by Brian Zahnd Telling Secrets by Frederick Buechner Mighty Poplar Stephen Wilson Jr. The Human Cost of AI Part 1 - No Small Endeavor The Human Cost of AI Part 2 - No Small Endeavor The Friendship Recession - The Subtext Your Favorite Musician Isn't Real - The Subtext How the Story Ends by Savannah Locke Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today we're sharing something a little different: a conversation Lee recently had as a guest on the With & For podcast with Dr. Pam King. Pam is a developmental psychologist, Executive Director of the Thrive Center for Human Development at Fuller Seminary, and an ordained Presbyterian minister. Like Lee, she has spent much of her career exploring how faith, spirituality, and virtue can help people live with purpose, love, and meaning. Their conversation centers on the classical cardinal virtues, what Lee calls the "hinge virtues": prudence, justice, courage, and temperance. Lee unpacks how these ancient philosophical ideas can be broken down into concrete daily habits and practices, including the story of a student whose work with the virtues led her to jump out of an airplane and rebuild her relationship with her mother. Pam and Lee also get personal, talking honestly about the work of moving through shame and why healthy vulnerability is essential to our closest relationships. We're grateful to Dr. Pam King and the With & For team for letting us share this episode with you. If it resonates, go follow ⁠With & For⁠ wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Linley Dixon. What does it mean to live a good life in a world increasingly disconnected from the land that sustains it?  Before Linley Dixon became co-director of the Real Organic Project, she spent years in academia studying plant pathology and soil microorganisms, peering through microscopes at the unseen relationships beneath our feet. But a passion for organic farming and the well-being of workers and the planet led her into her current role as an activist in a farmer-led movement working to restore integrity to the practice of Organic Farming. Linley offers us a vision of human flourishing rooted not in speed, efficiency, or endless consumption, but in patience, stewardship, and radical generosity. She explains why healthy soil lies at the heart of authentic organic farming, why the word “radical” is actually a botanical term, and why she believes true change begins when ordinary people are willing to tell difficult truths. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Linley Dixon ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

NSE Present CBC's Understood. What happens when a human becomes intimately enmeshed with a chatbot? From people who’ve married their bots or who grieve their loved ones with the help of AI, host Victoria Hetherington (author of The Friend Machine) dives into the stories of the people who have invited these digital avatars into their hearts, minds, and even beds. And asks what do we gain and what do we stand to lose? Our intimacy, our resilience, even our grasp on reality? Understood takes you deep inside the seismic shifts reshaping our world right now. From online porn and crypto chaos to the rise of tech oligarchs, deepfake AI, and the broken promises of the internet — we explore the stories that define our digital age with hosts and characters embedded in the heart of the action.  More episodes of Artificial Intimacy are available here: https://link.mgln.ai/UAIxNSE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dr. Erin Calipari thinks we're getting a lot wrong about addiction, so she and her lab are working to change that by conducting research that could save lives and destigmatize unhelpful narratives. In this episode, we dig into The Pitt's portrayal of high-functioning addiction and what it gets right that most TV gets wrong.  We sit down with Dr. Erin Calipari to unpack what addiction actually is at the molecular level, and why so much of what society believes about it is not just wrong, but harmful. From the brain's hijacked learning systems to the gender-specific realities of addiction, Dr. Calipari breaks down the gap between cutting-edge science and the policies, stigmas, and drug wars shaping real lives. Things we mentioned in this episode: Follow Erin! Euphoria on HBO Slow Horses on Apple TV Flight of Passage by Rinker Buck Down the Drain by Julia Fox The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu The Pitt on HBO Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean to live a good life in a world increasingly disconnected from the land that sustains it?  Before Linley Dixon became co-director of the Real Organic Project, she spent years in academia studying plant pathology and soil microorganisms, peering through microscopes at the unseen relationships beneath our feet. But a passion for organic farming and the well-being of workers and the planet led her into her current role as an activist in a farmer-led movement working to restore integrity to the practice of Organic Farming. Linley offers us a vision of human flourishing rooted not in speed, efficiency, or endless consumption, but in patience, stewardship, and radical generosity. She explains why healthy soil lies at the heart of authentic organic farming, why the word “radical” is actually a botanical term, and why she believes true change begins when ordinary people are willing to tell difficult truths. ⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Linley Dixon⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Tish Harrison Warren. What if burnout isn’t failure, but an invitation to become more fully human? Back in 2023, Anglican priest and author Tish Harrison Warren hit a wall. She was exhausted by her work  on faith and public discourse at the New York Times, and discouraged by the constant controversy that came hand in hand with writing about religion in a public forum. So she left. What followed was a 2 year exploration of burnout in modern culture, and her most recent book: What Grows in Weary Lands. In it, she explores the wisdom of early Christian teaching, and the many ways that embracing limits, difficulty, and the “arduous good” can lead to deeper meaning and authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: -Embrace the Arduous Good: The most meaningful parts of life (relationships, faith, vocation,) are often difficult, and their difficulty is part of their inherent value. -Grow Roots Through Limits: Depth comes not from endless options but from accepting constraints and staying present long enough for roots to form. -Practice Faith as Craft: Like any meaningful discipline, faith is shaped through daily habits and persistence. -Walk Toward the Desert: Seasons of burnout and spiritual dryness are not failures but invitations to deeper growth and transformation. -Choose the Local Act of Love: Real flourishing happens in embodied, everyday acts of care, not abstract ideals or grand ambition. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tish Harrison Warren ⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when the Bible becomes a stage prop for national identity instead of a text that interrogates it? This episode explores “America Reads the Bible,” a high-profile event where political leaders, actors, and influencers recited Scripture from the nation’s capital, and, drawing on Bonhoeffer’s warning about reading the Bible for ourselves instead of against ourselves, Savannah and Lee examine how the same text is used to fuel both nationalism and its critique, alongside debates like Tennessee’s Ten Commandments bill. Things we mentioned in this episode: Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Wright Brothers by David McCullough Flight of Passage: A Memoir by Rinker Buck The Congruent Life by C.E. Jarnagin Running Point on Netflix Slow Horses on Apple TV Eboo Patel on No Small Endeavor AJ Levine on No Small Endeavor Live Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if burnout isn’t failure, but an invitation to become more fully human? Back in 2023, Anglican priest and author Tish Harrison Warren hit a wall. She was exhausted by her work  on faith and public discourse at the New York Times, and discouraged by the constant controversy that came hand in hand with writing about religion in a public forum. So she left. What followed was a 2 year exploration of burnout in modern culture, and her most recent book: ⁠What Grows in Weary Lands⁠. In it, she explores the wisdom of early Christian teaching, and the many ways that embracing limits, difficulty, and the “arduous good” can lead to deeper meaning and authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: -Embrace the Arduous Good: The most meaningful parts of life (relationships, faith, vocation,) are often difficult, and their difficulty is part of their inherent value. -Grow Roots Through Limits: Depth comes not from endless options but from accepting constraints and staying present long enough for roots to form. -Practice Faith as Craft: Like any meaningful discipline, faith is shaped through daily habits and persistence. -Walk Toward the Desert: Seasons of burnout and spiritual dryness are not failures but invitations to deeper growth and transformation. -Choose the Local Act of Love: Real flourishing happens in embodied, everyday acts of care, not abstract ideals or grand ambition. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tish Harrison Warren⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Nicholas Ma. What if the goal of disagreement isn’t to win, but to stay in relationship? After producing the smash hit documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor,” on the life of Fred Rogers, filmmaker Nicholas Ma had one lingering question: Where is the kindness and acceptance that Mr. Rogers embodied in today’s divided world? He found the answer in his latest documentary, Leap of Faith, which follows 12 pastors as they navigate the deep theological and cultural challenges that divide them. Nicholas discusses the process of making the film, the unlikely friendships that developed, and the quiet power of sitting with another person’s pain. Key Ideas: -Love Beyond Understanding True friendship grows when we learn to love the parts in others that we cannot understand. -Stay Present in Pain Transformation often begins not by fixing or debating, but by sitting with another’s pain and bearing witness together. -Choose Relationship Over Certainty Clinging to certainty can make our worldview fragile, while embracing the unknown creates space for growth, faith, and connection. -Endure the Process of Change Meaningful change requires time; like any deep human process, it cannot be rushed without losing its depth. -Practice Proximate Care Human flourishing begins locally—by loving our neighbors well and cultivating communities of care where we are. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Nicholas Ma⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Noah Kahan’s The Great Divide is a brutally honest soundtrack to growing up, drifting away, and figuring out how to make peace with the place you come from. This episode dives into The Great Divide, the latest record from Noah Kahan, and unpacks its themes of home, relationships, love, and friendship. In it, they explore their own connections to their hometowns, Wendell Berry’s hot take about automobiles, and Kahan’s own eschatology (that he may or may not know about). Things we mentioned in this episode: The Great Divide album by Noah Kahan The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon Alabama I Am Bound by Walker Burroughs Out of Your Car, Off Your Horse by Wendell Berry Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth Center Church by Tim Keller Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices