Reformed Brotherhood | Reformed Theology and Brotherly Love

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal walks through Jonah 1–2, focusing on the remarkable prayer Jonah offers from the belly of the great fish. Far from a simple morality tale, the Book of Jonah presents a complex, deeply theological portrait of a disobedient prophet who nonetheless clings to the Lord in his darkest moment. Tony explores the Hebrew literary features that shape how we read Jonah's prayer, the doctrine of divine sovereignty as it operates through human agency, and the rich typological connections between Jonah and the death and resurrection of Christ. Most importantly, the episode grounds Jonah's experience in the Westminster Confession's teaching on sanctification — offering genuine hope to believers who feel buried under besetting sin, assuring them that salvation, from beginning to end, belongs entirely to the Lord. Key Takeaways Jonah is not the hero of his own story — he functions more as an anti-hero whose failures actually make him a more useful and relatable example for ordinary believers. Divine sovereignty operates through, not apart from, human agency — the sailors freely threw Jonah overboard, and yet Jonah rightly says God cast him into the deep; both are simultaneously true. The sequence debate in Jonah 2 matters theologically — whether Jonah prayed before or after being swallowed affects how we read the book; reading it as a strict cause-and-effect sequence risks turning the gospel into a quid pro quo transaction with God. Jonah's "yet I will see your holy temple" is a confession of eschatological faith — in the midst of near-certain death, Jonah expresses confidence not merely in earthly rescue, but in his ultimate destiny as one of God's people. The deep is a Genesis image — Jonah's descent into the primordial waters deliberately echoes the formless void of Genesis 1 and the undoing of creation in the flood, placing his experience within the grand arc of biblical cosmology. Jonah is a prophetic type of Christ's death and resurrection — his three days in the belly of the fish, his descent into the pit, and his emergence onto dry land anticipate and foreshadow the resurrection, as Jesus himself confirms in Matthew 12. Sanctification is real but imperfect — drawing from Westminster Confession Chapter 13, Tony argues that the up-and-down nature of Jonah's spiritual life is not an aberration but a description of the normal Christian life, in which the flesh and spirit remain in perpetual war until glory. Key Concepts Eschatological Faith in the Pit One of the most striking moments in Jonah's prayer is his declaration in 2:4 — "Yet I shall again look upon your holy temple." Tony argues that this is not merely a hope of physical rescue and a return to Jerusalem. Jonah believed he was dying. The waters had closed in to take his life; he was being dragged into underwater trenches that the ancient Semitic mind associated with the very gates of Sheol. In this context, Jonah's declaration is better understood as eschatological faith — a confession that even if God takes his life in judgment, he will still see the Lord face to face in the heavenly temple. It mirrors Job's cry, "Yet in my flesh I shall see God," and anticipates the kind of faith that says, with the father in Mark 9, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief." Sovereignty and Human Agency Working Together Tony uses Jonah's descent as a teaching moment on the Reformed doctrine of concurrence — the truth that God's sovereign decree and human free will are not in competition but operate simultaneously on different levels. The sailors made a free, agonized decision to throw Jonah overboard; and yet Jonah rightly attributes his casting into the sea to God himself. Tony draws the parallel to Joseph's words to his brothers in Genesis 50: "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good." This is not a philosophical sleight of hand. It is the consistent testimony of Scripture that God governs all things — including the underwater currents that dragged Jonah to the ocean floor — without reducing human beings to puppets or eliminating their moral responsibility. Sanctification Is Real, Imperfect, and Guaranteed Perhaps the most pastorally significant thread of the episode is Tony's application of Westminster Confession Chapter 13 to Jonah's experience. Jonah makes genuine progress in faith — his prayer is theologically rich and demonstrates real trust in God — and yet he almost immediately slips back behind the curve, making vows the sailors had already made before him, and later in chapter 4, sulking over a dead plant. Tony refuses to read this as a failure of the text. Instead, it is the text faithfully portraying the reality of sanctification: real throughout the whole person, yet imperfect in this life, with an irreconcilable war between flesh and spirit. The hope is not that we will finally overcome that war on our own, but that through the continual supply of the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part will overcome. Salvation — including sanctification — belongs entirely to the Lord. Memorable Quotes Jonah is constantly behind the curve, but for this little moment, for this glimpse in the very center of the book, the pinnacle of the book is Jonah finally catching up to the sailors. All outside visible indicators said he was going to die and he was going to hell. Yet he trusted in the Lord that he would see his holy temple again. God redeems our life from the pit. From the very depths of hell itself, he snatched us like brands from the fire. Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it. For their evil has come up before me." But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish. So he paid the fare and went down into it, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of the Lord.  [00:01:24] Storm and Sailors [00:01:24] Tony Arsenal: But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up. Then the mariners were afraid, and each cried out to his god. And they hurled the cargo that was in the ship into the sea to lighten it for them. But Jonah had gone down into the inner part of the ship and had lain down and was fast asleep. So the captain came to him and said, "What do you mean, you sleeper? Arise, call out to your god. Perhaps the god will give us a thought that we may not perish." And they said to one another, "Come, let us cast lots, that we may know on whose account this evil has come upon us." So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah. Then they said to him, "Tell us on whose account this evil has come upon us. What is your occupation, and where do you come from? What is your country, and of what people are you?" And he said to them, "I am a Hebrew, and I fear the Lord, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land." Then the men were exceedingly afraid and said to him, "What is this that you have done?" For the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them. Then they said to him, "What shall we do to you that the sea may quiet down for us?" For the sea grew more and more tempestuous. [00:02:36] Cast Into Sea [00:02:36] Tony Arsenal: He said to them, "Pick me up and hurl me into the sea. Then the sea will quiet down for you. For I know it is because of me that this great tempest has come upon you." Nevertheless, the men rowed hard to get back to the dry land, but they could not, for the sea grew more and more tempestuous against them. Therefore they called out to the Lord, "O Lord, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood. For you, O Lord, has done as it pleased you." So they picked up Jonah and hurled him into the sea. And the sea ceased from its raging. Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows. [00:03:15] Fish and Prayer [00:03:15] Tony Arsenal: And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, saying, "I called out to the Lord out of my distress, and he answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. For you cast me into the dep-- into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me. All your waves and billows passed over me." Then he said, "I am driven away from your sight. Yet I shall look again upon your holy temple. The waters closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds were wrapped around my head." At the root of the mountain I went to the land, whose bars closed upon me forever. Yet you brought my life up from the pit, O Lord my God. When I-- when my life was fainting away, I remembered the Lord, and my prayer came to you into your holy temple. Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. But I, with a voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord.  [00:04:23] Jonah Not the Hero [00:04:23] Tony Arsenal: And the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land Jonah is an interesting book because, as I commented a year ago, Jonah is not necessarily the hero of the story. Uh, if anything, he is kind of the villain in, in some senses. But nevertheless, I think as we'll see today, Jonah still gives us a good example to follow in a sense, and that I think is really the centerpiece of this prayer, is that even as Jonah's going through all of this, his prayer is still remarkably filled with faithful sayings and trust in the Lord. We learned early on in Jonah that Jonah was a prophet during the time of the kings. Uh, he, uh, he seemed to have been a sort of a court temple. He was in the presence of the kings in Jerusalem itself, and he received a calling from the word of the Lord, and this phrase, "the word of the Lord," seems to imply a pre-incarnate, uh, visible manifestation of the second person of the Trinity. So we're not just talking about a, a disembodied voice. We're not just talking about some sort of sense or impression, but the word of the Lord itself, himself, came to give Jonah this mission, to give Jonah this task, to commission him as a prophet to Nineveh. And Jonah gets up and says, "No, thank you," and he goes the opposite direction. We see in that first section there the repeated phrase, "He goes to Tarshish. He boards a ship in Tarshish." The author here, who we, we think is Jonah, is hammering that he did not go where he was supposed to. He went the opposite direction. He went to Tarshish instead of Nineveh, which is 180 degrees the other direction from, uh, from Nineveh on the map. And he boards the, he boards the ship in order to flee the presence of the Lord. He pays, probably buys out the entire ship itself. He pays the fare for the whole ship, and the Lord hurls a great wave, uses the language of weapons. He hurls this storm like a spear. He weaponizes nature itself to correct and chastise and judge Jonah for his disobedience We get to verses seven through 17, and everyone on the boat is crying out to their chosen deity except Jonah. Jonah is asleep in the hold of the ship, oblivious to everything, totally dead to the world and dead to his Lord. The sailors begin to seek divine li- divine wisdom after they wake Jonah. He comes to the deck of the ship, and they cast lots to identify by divine, uh, revelation, sort of a strange practice in the Old Testament or the old, uh, world. Divine revelation that shows them Jonah is the source of this wickedness that is being wrought upon them, at least their impression of it. So they ask Jonah, "Who are you? Tell us who it is that has caused this great calamity." And he says emphatically, "A Hebrew am I." He identifies himself with God's people, and he says, "The Lord is my God, and he made the heaven and the earth and the sea." There's no small amount of irony, and it explains why the sailors are so afraid when he says that God created the heavens where the storm was. He created the sea where they were about to die, and he created the dry land where they were trying to get to. And so this one phrase that Jonah uses almost casually demonstrates that the Lord has total and utter sovereignty over what is going on, which is a theme that we'll see come back again and again through the book The sailors say, "Well, what do we do about this?" And Jonah says, "Throw me into the ocean, because I know that if you do so, then the storm will calm down and you will be saved." Whether he knew this because he's a prophet and it had been revealed to him, or whether he just was surmising that this was the case, we don't know. But the, uh, sailors are hesitant to do so, and we talked about how it was a little bit strange that these, uh, pagan sailors from cultures that d- had no qualms about human sacrifice were suddenly, uh, unwilling to throw Jonah over the sea a- as a, an appeasement offering to this Lord. And we came to the conclusion that they had been regenerated. They had come to faith in this God who created the heavens and the sea and the dry ground. And so they knew intrinsically that this was wrong, that there was a moral imperative not to do this. So they tried to row back to the land. They jettisoned all of their, uh, all of their goods, all of their cargo. They were making for land as best they could, and when it finally became clear that they couldn't do this, they sought the Lord's mercy in saying, essentially, "We don't understand how this is, but please don't put this man's blood on us, because you, Lord, have done as you please," right? The sovereignty of the Lord again comes to the forefront. They finally cast Jonah into the sea, and this is, this is important. They cast Jonah into the sea, and then they worship, they vow vows, and they vow to sacrifice. They offer sacrifices. They seek the Lord, they acknowledge his s- his sovereignty, and they worship him with what they have left. And then rounding out the chapter, the Lord appoints a great fish to come and swallow up Jonah. And we talked about how this, this swallowing of Jonah, although our popular children's books and VeggieTales and other stories we might read to our kids paints the fish often as the vehicle of judgment, it's actually a vehicle of deliverance for Jonah. There's this interesting grammatical feature that happens where in 1:17 the fish is masculine. The, the, the gender of the word is masculine, and then when we get to 2:1 it switches over to the feminine, almost as if to indicate that the whale was pregnant with Jonah, that Jonah was in the whale and was about to be reborn into the world in a new way And that brings us to our passage here today.  [00:10:21] Sequence Debate [00:10:21] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna read, uh, 1:17 even though that's a little bit outside of our scope. I'm gonna read it along with 2:1 to, to make the point here. It says, "The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the whale, of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish." When you look at the Hebrew text, 1:17 is actually verse 2:1 and 2:1 is then 2:2 and so on and so forth. In the original Hebrew mindset of how this book goes together, these two things were linked together, him being swallowed by the whale and being in the belly of the fish and then him praying was linked together in this sequence. There's a feature in the Hebrew that's called a vav consecutive. You don't need to remember that. Nobody is gonna care about that. But it's, it's a little grammatical feature where it adds this little character to the front of the verb and it indicates a sequence. It's the narrative storytelling. When you look at Genesis 1 it's, "And then God said, 'Let there be light,' and then there was light." It tells you the sequence of events. Sometimes it indicates that it is a strict sequence of events. This happened and then that finished and then the next thing happened and then that finished. And many of the commentators use this passage to justify a perspective of Jonah where Jonah is this rebellious, stubborn prophet who holds out his stubbornness until the very last minute. He's swallowed by the whale, he's getting digested by stomach acid and he sort of finally relents to the Lord and cries out for deliverance and the Lord acquiesces in response to his prayer. That's certainly a possible interpretation. There's lots of good reasons in the, the text here to think Jonah was kind of a chucklehead and was not paying too much attention to what the Lord had for him The other option is to see this as a way for the author of the text to situate this prayer in contrast to other prayers that are not necessarily talked about directly in this text. And I'm gonna take that later view here, and I think it's important. This makes good sense of the text, and we'll explain exactly why that is when we get to the next little section here. But it also protects us theologically if we understand it this way. Jonah is already a book, uh, as I've alluded to, that tends towards a sort of crass moralism or fabulism. We tend to read it as sort of an allegory of if you do the wrong thing, God punishes you, and when you finally do the right thing, He blesses you. And there's a certain level of common grace wisdom to that approach, right? The whole book of Proverbs is-- are these proverbial sayings that if you do this, then the God-- then God will do this. If you raise up your children in the way they will go, they will not depart when they are older. But we also learn in the Book of Job and the Book of Ecclesiastes that those proverbial sayings, although generally true, it's not a magic formula. And so we have this tendency to read Old Testament literature as though it was this sort of like equation, that God punishes us when we're bad. He, uh, He relents from His punishment when we say we're sorry, and we have to be careful about that. If we understand what I'm about to teach from the next section here, that this is not a strict sequence of events, that Jonah began praying before he was swallowed by the whale, and this is simply recording the prayer that was actually within the whale. It helps protect us from seeing Jonah in this sort of quid pro quo, this for that kind of thing. I think we should simply understand this as saying Jonah was in the water, he got swallowed by the whale, and then when he was in the whale, he prayed. It doesn't say anything about whether he was overly stubborn or whether his stubbornness held out. It simply tells us that he was in the pray-- in the whale when this prayer occurred [00:14:23] Sheol and Descent [00:14:23] Tony Arsenal: He says in verse two, he calls out to the Lord out of his distress. He, and God answers him. Out of the belly of Sheol, Jonah cries, and God hears his voice This here tells us that he began praying, right? He was in the water, he was in the deep. All of this descriptive language we're gonna see later on about how deep he was, how quickly the current took him. He was wrapped up in seaweed, his life was fading from him. It was in the midst of all of that that he cries out in his distress. It's a pretty distressing situation. And Jonah, like all of us would, like even most atheists would, cries out to the Lord, even just out of instinct. I think it's kind of crazy for us to think that this man who's now been cast overboard and is being swept to the bottom of the ocean is sure he's gonna die. Somehow, he overrides all of his instinct and his entire life teaching and refuses to pray to the Lord. It just doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense of what the text presents here Jonah was in the belly of Sheol. He was in the very, the very womb of Sheol. And there is this interesting contrast that he goes from the belly of Sheol into the belly of the whale. This phrase, the belly of Sheol, is probably roughly equivalent to our phrase about being at death's door, right? It, it may or may not come from some sort of Mesopotamian, um, mythology. It may be a phrase of sort of co-opted into Hebrew, kinda like our phrase at death's door is actually co-opted in from Greek mythology, where there were actually literal doors to the underworld, and people would go there and when they were about to die. Jonah's point is that this was not a small thing. When we watch VeggieTales, he gets thrown in the water, and, like, 13 seconds later, the, the whale comes up and takes him. Jonah was swept down into the water almost supernaturally quick. He was drawn down to the very bottom of the ocean. We talk about the miracle of him surviving in the whale, and it was miraculous for sure, but the miracle of him being swept to the bottom of the ocean and not being crushed by the weight of the water, by the pressure, is equally miraculous. It's no more difficult for God to do that than it is for Him to preserve him in the whale or to raise Jesus from the dead or to create everything from nothing He finally starts to catch up with the pagan sailors. A theme in Jonah is that everyone around Jonah who shouldn't know any better somehow gets to the right conclusion before he does, right? The sailors begin to worship the Lord. They recognize this is divine wrath while Jonah is still asleep in the hold. Later, we'll see that, uh, the, the Ninevites recognize God's mercy and grace and thank Him for it, and Jonah is still mad because the plant he was sitting on d- uh, dies, right? Jonah is constantly behind the curve, but for this little moment, for this glimpse in the very center of the book, the pinnacle of the book is Jonah finally catching up to the sailors. [00:17:34] Sovereignty Explained [00:17:34] Tony Arsenal: He recognizes that it was God who cast him into the depths. This teaches us something about the doctrine of sovereignty and how it relates to human freedom, right? We, we often ask the question, what, what causes rain? Well, you can answer that by saying tiny particles of dust collect water in the air, and once they have enough weight, they fall out of the sky 'cause the air can't hold them up anymore. That's true, and it's good, and that's what nature teaches us. It's also equally true that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, and those two things are not contradictory. So when Jonah says, "You cast me into the sea," he's recognizing, like Joseph does in the Book of Genesis, that what the sailors in this case meant for good but what the brothers meant for evil, God purposed and caused for good. What the sailors did by their own volition, their own free will, they exercised their own, uh, autonomy in the, the horizontal sense to cast Jonah into the sea, God also cast him into the sea As I said, the text here uses language that we may not catch in our English translations to indicate that it's not just the sea here that's the problem. God's sovereignty continues to affect and act on Jonah. The word that we read here as the, the water or the flood, other places refers to the current of a river. The, um, the Euphrates itself is sometimes referred to this, the large- sort of the largest river apart from the Nile that the Egyptian or the, um, Israelite mind would have is the Euphrates, right? This underwater river, this underwater current, the undertow sucks him to the bottom of the ocean. It's like if you're swimming at the beach at the ocean and you get caught in the undercurrent. There's not a lot you can do about it. Y- sometimes even the strongest swimmers can't overcome this, and Jonah in all of his Middle Eastern robes, all of this stuff, probably with all of his baggage, his, his own equipment, things he had on him, is caught in this undercurrent that sucks him to the bottom of the ocean. And it's not just below the surface of the water. He's dropped down into the heart of the sea, the very core. We're seeing this language of him being pulled to the depths. In, in chapter one he goes down, down, down, and now he's being drawn into the belly of the ocean, into the pit of Sheol, into the heart of the waters The picture here is that Jonah doesn't just get thrown in the water and sink. He is actively pulled down to the bottom. This is not just a judgment where perhaps he can swim to the top. Just as the mariners hopelessly tried to reach land, Jonah would've been hopelessly trying to swim against this. We don't actually have any indication he tried, but had he tried, there would've been no chance He goes on to say that the God's breakers and his waves roll him. This is the picture we see if you ever watch surfing competitions on the ocean, where a surfer will get hit by the wave and he just gets rolled over and rolled over and rolled over, and it can be incredibly dangerous. That's why they have like the little lifeguards on the jet skis that zip out there to get them. Because when you get caught in that breaker, you just get rolled over and rolled over and rolled over, and soon you lose track of which direction is up, and even if you did, you couldn't get out This process is not just the forces of nature doing what they do. This is, again, the Lord weaponizing the forces of nature to execute judgment on Jonah This tumultuous and supernatural rapid descent showed Jonah that this is not only the moment in which God wanted to take his life, but was actively casting him away from the g- from the presence of the Lord [00:21:47] Yet I Will See [00:21:47] Tony Arsenal: It says here, um, in verse four, Jonah says, "I am driven away from your sight If you do a word study on this, you start to see that Jonah is pulling language from the creation account. He's pulling language from the fall. He's pulling a lot of language from Genesis itself. He's also pulling from the Psalms, which are pulling from the Genesis account. This word driven away could also be tran- translated as banished. He's cast out of the presence of the Lord. Just as in Genesis 3, we read, "God drove the man out at the east of the Garden of Eden. He placed cherubim and flaming swords." He drove the man out. Genesis 4:14, Cain says, "You have driven me away from the ground." And in Jonah 1:3, we see that Jonah was trying to get away from the presence of the Lord. And I wonder if there was this moment where he goes, "Ooh, I guess I got what I was looking for." Now, the second half of Jonah f- 2:4 here does something a little bit weird, and it's hard to translate. I think we should be honest at times. Hebrew is a language that in some senses is mysterious to us at times. There are still parts of the Hebrew Bible that we're not always 100% sure of. This verse here could be translated... In, in Hebrew it's just a statement. It's, "I, um, I shall again see the holy temple, or your holy temple." How that fits into the text itself is tricky. Some read it as, uh, as a question. "How shall I see your holy temple?" It's actually a statement kind of reaffirming the doubt and the fear and the idea that God was banishing him Most translations translate it as sort of a contrast. He says, "I was driven away from your sight, yet I shall again look on your holy temple." The force of this is even though you're driving me away, even though you're casting me out of your presence, I have faith, I have confidence that I will again see your holy temple The question here, and this is where I think Jonah becomes our example It's certainly possible that Jonah was asserting his belief that he would be rescued from this calamity and he would make his way back to Jerusalem and he would return to the holy temple. I think that what he says in the rest of this, he's recounting what he was praying. What he was praying in this context is not that he would return to the temple. He was confident God was taking his life. He says in verse five, "The waters closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds were wrapped around my head." The other way that the phrase holy temple is used in the Old Testament is to refer to the place that God lives in heaven. Jonah was asserting faith that even though he was being cast out of the presence of the Lord in this life, even though he was being justly punished for his sin, even though he was about to enter the belly of Sheol and to enter the pit, the very abyss, that he would see God again in His holy temple. This is a statement of Jonah's belief in his own destiny as one of God's people, destined to be saved by faith in God. In this moment, Jonah trusts the Lord despite all of the appearances that God was out to get him It's not all that different than when we read in Mark chapter 9, where this father brings his, uh, demon-possessed child to Jesus, and Jesus says, "I can heal him." And he says, "If you can do anything, Lord," I'm paraphrasing here. He says, "If you can do it, please, Lord." And he says, "If? All things are possible for me." And the father desperately cries out, "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief." It's this raw, unfiltered statement of just the human condition on this side of glory, right? I believe in the Lord, but there's always that little part in the back of my head that isn't sure, because we're never going to be perfect. Now, I've said before, and, and this is becoming my new catchphrase, I think, I'm not here to rob you of your assurance of faith. Our, our confession, the Bible, this church, our Reform, broader Reform tradition, the assurance of faith of the Christian is the rightful possession inheritance of every person in this room who trusts the Lord. But it is a reality that at times that assurance is shaken. And if there's ever a time for your assurance to be shaken, it's when you're being dragged to the bottom of the ocean, right? One of the words in here, I don't have it-- I don't actually have it in my notes for some reason, but one of the note, words here, uh, s- about the roots of the mountain, I believe, in the next verse. It's not just that he was dragged to the bottom of the ocean. This word root of the mountain is like the word that's used to cut. He's not just being dragged to the bottom of the sea, he's being dragged to the bottom of a deep sea crevasse. He's literally being pulled into the pit, right? Many, uh, in the ancient Semitic world would have seen these underwater pits. They would have theorized or thought about these underwater crevasses as the actual entry into Sheol. And Jonah sees himself being drawn down into these things. Yet, he believes he will see the good presence of the Lord We read a similar statement, I won't, uh, I won't make us go there for time. We read a similar statement in Job. Job goes through this long speech about all the things that God has done to him, and at the very end of it, he says, "Yet I will see the Lord with my eyes, and he will stand up next to me on, on the earth." Right? Even though Job was going through this unimaginable grief, and we know that Job didn't deserve it in the strict sense, he still was saying, "I'm gonna be destroyed. God is shooting arrows at me," right? "His sword is in my side. He's targeting me. He's sending hornets after me." All of these terrible, vibrant images that he's using to show what God is doing to him, and yet he still trusts. I would say that he trusts that he would see the Lord in the flesh. This is not only Jonah's faith, it's a-- or Job's faith, it's a prophecy of Christ This is alien to our modern mindset. We've been talking about this in the Psalms. Weston's been leading us through the, the lament Psalms We often think that suffering and trials and difficulties are the opposite of blessing and favor. And we might recognize that in some sort of way that in God's economy, one thing leads to another. And again, there's an element of truth to that. James says, "Count it all joy when you face trials of every kind." He's not saying that the trials you're facing are in themselves joyful. You don't have to love when you get sick. You don't have to, you don't have to man up and put a smile on or s- pull yourself up by your bootstraps or whatever analogy you wanna use. It's okay to be sad when bad things happen. It's actually good, right? If we're to weep with those who weep, there's an element of sadness that must come with that, not to mention the one who's weeping is not chastised. But the idea that that only leads to this, that that's just one step in the chain, that's not really the mindset the Bible has. All across the Psalms, in the lament Psalms, all across the prophetic literature, the Book of Lamentations, Habakkuk has this long prayer at the end that's very similar, the entire Book of Job, suffering and sanctification, trials and joy and restoration, they're all sandwiched right there, and there is usually this statement in the middle of it that God will do what is right This is Jonah's example for us, and what an example it is. We'll talk in a little bit about all the ways that this whole scenario is typological of Christ. We'll, we'll get to that. But just for a minute in the middle of this book, Jonah is not such a bad guy. And it's because he still has all his faults that he can be this example for us [00:30:26] Genesis Deep Imagery [00:30:26] Tony Arsenal: As though it wasn't clear enough, Jonah in verse five says that the purpose of the waters closing over him was explicitly to take his life. He's now in the belly of the sea. He's being dragged down to the very roots of the mountain, to the very core of the earth in his mind. He, he thinks he's going to hell in the, the Hebrew mind. There's both this idea that God is dragging him to hell in a very real sense. The Hebrew mind, Sheol was a physical place that people went to, and we learn more about it and that becomes clarified as revelation is progressive, not contradictory, but as, as it's clarified But he uses this word deep, and this is where he's drawing again from Genesis. Genesis 1:2, he says, "The earth was without form and void. The darkness was over the face of the deep." The deep is this sort of like unformed chaotic water. It's what exists before God makes everything orderly and good. And in the fall, and especially in the flood in chapter seven, uh, chapter seven verse 11, the f- the flood itself is a sort of undoing of the order. God opens the floods from beneath, from the bottom of the earth, from the wellspring of the deep, as well as the chaotic waters from outside the firmament, and it all pours back in together and the entire world becomes again this deep, primordial, chaotic water And just as in Genesis God separates the land, in, in Genesis 7 or in Genesis 8, he separates out the land by drying it up, drying up the water. We also see that Jonah has this trust that he will return to the dry land. Again, he's the God of heaven and sea and dry earth. We could even read this phrase, depending on the context, as the abyss, which is this, a- again, is some borrowed language from Greek here that the Hebrews use. But it's this deep, watery, murky place th- full of shadows and darkness. Sounds familiar, I think, right? Christ says that those who are apart from him who refuse to obey will be cast into the outer darkness. This is the imagery that Jonah is seeing. All outside visible indicators was that he was gonna die and he was going to hell. Yet he trusted in the Lord that he would see his holy temple again Apart from God's gracious intervention, Jonah was right. So although God is the one that's bringing him to the depth, bringing him to the pit, dragging him down, using the very currents of the sea, weaponizing these underwater currents that only thousands of years later do we understand, and even then only this much, he also graciously rescues him from this by miraculously appointing a whale or a great fish who comes and swallows Jonah, takes him whole, and keeps him there in his own belly, keeps him there in her own womb when we get to chapter 2. In chapter six, or in verse six, Jonah makes this pivot. Again, he says he's brought to the very bottom of the sea, to the roots of the mountain, which is these deep underwater trenches. He conceptualizes himself now in this locked city behind bars. Again, this jail imagery, this pit imagery, it's all meant to evoke this idea of the final punishment of the wicked. This place of murky, gross water, this place of darkness and, uh, limitations of freedom, he's being taken there. This is the section here where people would actually argue that Jonah dies. He actually dies and is resurrected when he's swallowed by the whale. This comes from language where it says God does not prevent him from going to the pit. God actually draws him to the pit and then raises his life up from the pit. Now, I'm not convinced, um, that we should think that Jonah actually died. I don't, I don't think that the text fully supports that. But it certainly is using this imagery [00:34:45] Christ Typology [00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: This is where we get to some typology about Christ. This is where Jonah really shines as a prophet. Sometimes people wonder why the Book of Jonah is considered a prophetic book, and this along with it is part of that. Jonah, although the sign of Jonah in Matthew and in the other Gospels refers to the belly of the whale, that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so also Christ will be in the heart of the earth, the pit, for three days and three nights. When we're talking about typology, we can't get too tripped up on the details. We're not talking about strict allegory where this figure is that person and this signpost represents that thing. This isn't Pilgrim's Progress or Chronicles of Narnia, which is not allegory, but it's similar. Topology functions often on sort of these big picture concepts, right? Although there are some typological references that are super detailed, there are also some that are just sort of evocative The idea that Jonah died and was raised to life and sort of incubated in the earth, in- incubated in the whale and sort of reborn into the world, that certainly sounds a lot like a picture of the resurrection And I think we should see it that way. When Christ says that the sign of Jonah is roughly His resurrection, He is tying it to the three days and three nights, but He's not limiting to that Jonah comes to this pivot, and now he starts to reflect on the context of his deliverance. This whole s- this whole prayer should be seen sort of in the light of the thanksgiving psalms. There's a situation in which Jonah is in, and then God rescues him, and he begins to praise him for it. There's elements of lament, but it's really a thanksgiving psalm that he's drawing on here or that he's, he's writing In 2:7, Jonah is either dead or he's actively dying. I don't know about you, but if you've ever, uh, dove into a pool and got a little deeper than you thought you were, and you-- there's that, like, two seconds before you get to the top where you're sure the lights are going out and you've really only been underwater for, like, 45 seconds, but everything in you tells you if you don't get there, you're gonna die. Every instinct you have is to scramble for the surface. Think about how long it took Jonah to be dragged to the bottom of the ocean. Even at this accelerated pace, we're talking about a long time. And we have no reason to believe, and lots of reasons to think otherwise, Jonah was not preserved from the pain and the terror and the difficulty of feeling like you're drowning because he was drowning. He was without oxygen. His life was fading away. And it is in this context of him being on the brink of death, at death's door, in the belly of Sheol, being drawn into the very pit itself, that his prayer reaches the Lord in His holy temple. Right? This gives further evidence to the thought that Jonah is not talking about the temple in Jerusalem. There was, there was theology, and I, I think it's fine theology, that God lived in the temple in a special way. This is the reason that Daniel faces Jerusalem when he prays. There is a sense in the Old Testament that God's special place of presence is the temple in Jerusalem, and that the prayers of the people physically go to that place to be received by God. But Jonah doesn't know which direction the temple is. He's underwater. He's been tossed around by breakers. He has no sense of geography at this point He knows that his prayers are reaching the Lord in his heavenly temple. And they reach him in his heavenly temple just as his life is being lost in the pit. And it is from this moment that God raises him to life, or preserves his life, depending how you read it, and appoints the well to come reach him And some read this next verse as a little bit of a step back for Jonah, and it may be.  [00:39:02] Vows and Idols [00:39:02] Tony Arsenal: He reads, "Those who pay vain regard to i- regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. But I, with the voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. And what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord." Jonah didn't see the sailors on the ship vow their vows and offer their sacrifices. That happened after they threw him into the pit and the current sucked him under So we may read this with a little bit of a, "Thank God I'm not like that tax collector," kind of a lens. And there's probably some wisdom for us in that, to recognize that Jonah still hasn't quite gotten there. But it's also very common in the Old Testament to recognize that God treats His people differently because they are different. God brings people to a place of sanctification, and through that process of sanctification, they cease to worship vain idols. And it is absolutely true that those who worship vain idols forfeit their hope of steadfast love from the Lord. That's straight out of the Ten Commandments, right? He visits the iniquity of, specifically of idolatry. He visits the iniquity unto the children to the third and fourth generation. But for those who love the Lord, He loves them with a steadfast love unto thousands We can recognize in Jonah that although he had made great progress in faith, that he still wasn't there yet. And we can recognize that in him because we can recognize that in ourselves. Jonah is the example in this because he is not perfect, because he has not arrived, 'cause he doesn't do a 180 about-face and get everything right going forward We can read this in light of Jonah in chapter four, where he takes big steps back Or we can read this as the regular up and down progress of sanctification in the life of all believers everywhere It is also ironic again, we're back now to Jonah being a little bit behind the curve. He was sent to Nineveh to evangelize the heathens, some of the worst enemies that Israel was going to face, and he ignores that call. And he, instead of going to Nineveh, he goes to Tarshish. He goes the opposite direction, and he does something that would be unthinkable to most Israelites. He goes out on the open ocean. That's just insanity to someone living in the ancient world He should have recognized that the sailors were fearing the Lord when they refused to throw him overboard. I think we all have a sort of innate sense when someone's behavior suddenly changes, and I think most of us, and not in some sort of strange, kooky, charismatic sense, but I think most of us can sort of go, "I think I know why that is." Right, when you, when you see someone at work that suddenly stops lying about everything and stops backbiting and stops taking credit for other people's work, and then you find out a little while linger- longer that they've come to faith in Christ, if we're being honest, we're not all that surprised. But Jonah doesn't get it. Jonah here promises the same things that the sailors already did, so now we're again back behind the curve [00:42:37] Sanctification Confession [00:42:37] Tony Arsenal: To wrap this out, I, I wanna, um, I wanna ground this in something that I think is really vital for us to understand. As I said, Jonah is an example to us because he demonstrates the limited nature of sanctification, but he also demonstrates in a certain sense the fact that sanctification is real and has real effects. So this is a little out of the ordinary, but grab your Trinity Hymnal from the pew in front of you. If you happen to have a copy of the Confession, you could use that if you'd prefer. But open with me to page 927 I have, um, I've been, uh, broadly Reformed most of my Christian life and didn't realize it until I got to seminary. And since I discovered the Westminster Confession of Faith a decade ago, it's not new, uh, not new to me, um, I realized how valuable this resource was. This is essentially a search engine without the internet. And so I wanna just read a little bit out of chapter 13 here, which is our Confessions chapter on sanctification. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but the, the first, uh, the first section here essentially says that sanctification is real, and it happens throughout the whole person. We talk about total depravity, and there is a sense in which the Christian remains totally depraved after regeneration, in that there still is, there still is corruption within our entire being, uh, that is depraved. There's also an equal sense in which we can say we are totally sanctified in Christ because sanctification is throughout the whole man in which we are renewed after the image of God. So that's section one. And then section two says, "This sanctification is throughout," again, throughout the whole man, "in the whole man, yet imperfect in this life. There abiding still some remnant of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irre- irreconcilable war, the flesh left lusting after the spirit, and the spirit lusting after the flesh." Now, that may feel like just a crushing burden if you stop reading there, but it lines up with our experience, right? This is Paul in Romans 7, "The good things I wanna do, I do not, and the bad things that I, I kn- I do not want to do, I somehow do. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." We shouldn't read that as though somehow our spirits are purified entirely and our bodies are what's really causing us to sin. This is a picture of the spirit being, uh, our, our spiritual part of us. The part of us that's regenerated is willing, but the part of us that remains corrupt is our flesh And our confession goes on to say, "In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctification- sanctifying spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome." And so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is revolutionary in our broader evangelical world. The storybook Bible, Jonah did a bad thing and he gets punished, and he did a good thing and so he gets better, cannot understand this concept. This is why I think we have to be so careful when we choose what books to give to our little ones, right? I, I make jokes about VeggieTales. I loved VeggieTales when I was in VeggieTales age range. I probably would sit down and watch VeggieTales with Augie when he gets old enough. But we have to be so careful not to let those messages come to our children, or to ourselves for that matter, uninterpreted by the scriptures first and foremost, and our Reformed tradition that we all believe. Amen.  [00:46:49] Assurance in the Pit [00:46:49] Tony Arsenal: This is vital for us When all is said and done, salvation, whether we're talking about justification, sanctification, glorification, resurrection, all of the different stages and phases of our salvation, it is entirely of the Lord. And it's for this reason that Jonah says, "I, with a voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will pay." Salvation belongs to the Lord So this is the application of the sermon, loved ones. No matter how close to or actually into the pit itself we have fallen The, the chapter on assurance of faith, I won't go there, but the chapter in our confession on assurance of faith is very honest with us that our assurance will be shaken, and at times we may not feel as though we have any assurance at all But even when we have fallen that deep into the pit of despair, even when we feel as though we are in the very depths of hell No matter how much our spiritual or physical life is fainting away as we starve for spiritual breath, as we feel that impulse in us that recognizes we're moments away from losing the faith entirely. No matter how much the remnants of corruption in every part swirl around our heads like seaweed, how often do we feel wrapped up in sin? Whatever it is, I don't need to get specific 'cause I'm sure all of you are thinking of something in your head right now that has been swirling around you for years. Maybe it's months, maybe it's years. Maybe you've never felt, since coming to Christ, you've never felt like it wasn't wrapped up around you like seaweed. Besetting sin is something that we need to be serious about, and it's a good cause for us to think hard and deep about our status as Christians, and to go to our pastor and seek the elders' assistance in this. But besetting sin is not, is not a mark that excludes you from, from Christianity. Right? We're justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, by His grace alone. Not because we've overcome our besetting sin alone, right? That's not one of the five solas God redeems our life from the pit. From the very depths of hell itself, he snatched us like brands from the fire And though it is the case that we often are shaken, and at times God, just as he let Jonah, he let Jonah go to Tarshish. God had every ability to stop him from doing a stupid thing, and sometimes he does that, right? I'm sure there's plenty of times we can think about in our lives where we were heading towards sin and God just pulled a U-turn on us, and we are thankful for that. But there are times that he does not, and he lets us, he lets us do that. He lets us suffer the consequences, and he does that to chastise us and bring us back to him And even in the context of that, it is through this continual supply of the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, right?  [00:50:19] God Beautifies His Bride [00:50:19] Tony Arsenal: Christ was anointed by the Holy Spirit from the womb beyond measure. That's in the Book of John. There was never a time where Christ did not have the totality of the infinite sanctifying Spirit of the God, of God. We do not have the totality of the sanctifying Spirit of God. Now, we can get into a discussion after the service about divine simplicity and all the complexity of that, but the reality is that God sanctifies us more and more and more, and He does it by giving us the Spirit more and more. Might be more accurate to say He gives more of us to the Spirit. He gives us to the Spirit more and more. He gives us to Jesus more and more. We are Christ's inheritance. We are His bride. And just as the bride, as they're approaching the wedding, is made more and more beautiful, they start their, their beauty treatments weeks and months ahead of time, right? They're already making their hair appointments. They're already doing what they need to do to feel as beautiful as they can and to be as beautiful as they can on their wedding day. If that's the way we treat human weddings; guys do it too, just not as much. If that's the way we treat human weddings, how much more does God treat the heavenly wedding of His Son to His beloved bride? He's beautifying us, Church. Doesn't always feel like it. Doesn't always look like it, but He is. 

In episode 497 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring the Parable of the Talents to a close with one of the most theologically rich discussions in recent memory. Beginning in Matthew 25:24, they zero in on the one-talent servant — not merely as a cautionary tale about productivity, but as a profound case study in distorted theology. The servant's fatal error wasn't laziness alone; it was a fundamentally false picture of his master. That mischaracterization produced a craven, fearful inaction that the hosts argue maps directly onto the eschatological stakes of the parable. Drawing on Calvin, William Ames, and Reformed confessional commitments, Tony and Jesse make the case that right theology is never merely academic — it shapes the whole of life, and ultimately determines one's eschatological destiny. Key Takeaways The one-talent servant's core failure is theological, not behavioral — he constructs a false image of his master as harsh and exploitative, and that distorted theology governs everything that follows. False theology produces fatal inaction — the servant's fear is not godly fear but a craven dread rooted entirely in his mischaracterization of the master's character. The knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are inseparable — following Calvin's Institutes, the hosts argue that a right understanding of God as gracious and generous will produce active, trusting faithfulness, while a distorted view produces fearful, minimal compliance. The parable is fundamentally eschatological, not merely practical — interpreting the talents primarily as spiritual gifts or ministry opportunities misses the point; the parable is about who belongs to the master's kingdom and who does not. Character precedes action — the faithful servants do not become faithful by producing returns; they produce returns because they are faithful. The wicked servant buries his talent because he is wicked, not the other way around. William Ames understood the servant's sin as a violation of the ninth commandment — by burying his talent, the servant effectively bears false witness against God's own estimation of the gift, rejecting both the gift and the Giver. The "outer darkness" language is not out of place — it is the natural eschatological conclusion for someone who never genuinely knew or trusted the master, making the parable a picture of what it means to be outside the grace and presence of God entirely. Key Concepts False Theology as the Root of Inaction The most striking feature of the one-talent servant's account is not what he did — or failed to do — but what he believed. He tells his master, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed." Tony and Jesse point out that nothing in the parable supports this characterization. A master who entrusts his servants with what amounts to decades of wages — hundreds of years' worth of labor between three servants — is not a hard, exploitative figure. He is astonishingly generous and trusting. The servant has constructed a theological fiction, and that fiction becomes the prison of his own inaction. This is not a peripheral observation; it is the interpretive key to the entire parable. What we believe about God determines everything about how we live before Him. The Knowledge of God Shapes the Whole of Life Calvin famously opens the Institutes with the observation that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are so bound together that it is nearly impossible to determine which is logically prior. Jesse draws on this insight to show that the one-talent servant's self-understanding — timid, fearful, paralyzed — flows directly from his distorted image of God. A person who genuinely knows God as gracious, generous, and long-suffering will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding will retreat into fearful, minimalist compliance. This is not merely a first-century observation. It is a diagnostic tool for self-examination: the shape of our obedience reveals the shape of our theology. Reformed orthodoxy has always insisted that right doctrine is not academic — it is the engine of the Christian life. Character Precedes Action — The Anti-Works-Righteousness Reading One of the most important guardrails Tony and Jesse set up in this episode is against a subtle works-righteousness reading of the parable. It is tempting to hear the parable and conclude: do productive things for the kingdom, and you will be welcomed as a good and faithful servant. But the hosts argue that this inverts the logic of the text entirely. The faithful servants are not commended because they generated a return; they generated a return because they are faithful servants. The wicked servant buries his talent because he is wicked — his character drives his conduct, not the reverse. Justification and sanctification alike are received by faith in Christ alone, and no reading of this parable should suggest that our eschatological standing is secured by our productivity. The sheep act like sheep because they are sheep. That punchline, Tony notes, will carry them straight into the sheep and the goats passage next week. Memorable Quotes "Who is it that's not going to be saved in the last day? It's the people who don't recognize the master. The people who think that the master is a hard man who reaps where he has not sown and gathers where he has not scattered. Well, if we think that's who God is, we have a lot of trouble coming our way." — Tony Arsenal "A person who genuinely knows the living God as gracious, generous, long-suffering, with that kind of hesed kind of love — that person will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding is always going to retreat in this fearful, minimal kind of compliance." — Jesse Schwamb "The sheep act like sheep because they're sheep. They don't become sheep because they do sheep things. They do sheep things because they're sheep." — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Welcome to episode four hundred and ninety seven of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear Hey, brother  [00:00:42] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. We're back at it again. We're hanging out in Matthew's gospel, the 25th chapter, and it's time to, I think, close out the Parable of the Talents, where we've got two servants that double their master's money, and one who buries his in the ground like a Calvinist who's confused predestination with doing nothing. And of course, all of this irony is the faithful servants, they can't even take credit. The master supplied the capital, the ability, and apparently even the bull market. It's grace all the way down. But meanwhile, the one talent guy returns exactly what he was given and he gets absolutely wrecked, and we're gonna dig into that. Gonna dig into- ... that later.  [00:01:26] Affirm or Deny Segment [00:01:26] Jesse Schwamb: But before we do, it's what everybody's waiting for. It's that time in the podcast where we affirm with something that we really like or we recommend or we think is undervalued, or we deny against something that's exactly the opposite. Not worth it, no good, get it out of here. So Tony, are you affirming with or denying against?  [00:01:43] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying against something related to the World Cup. Um-  [00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Okay ...  [00:01:48] Tony Arsenal: I am not a purist, so please don't hear me as, like, elitist soccer dude who is resistant to any sort of changes, but, um, I didn't actually even know this was happening. Are you following the World Cup at all, Jesse? [00:02:01] Jesse Schwamb: I'm trying to. I'm not against it, I'm just finding myself- Yeah ... stuck in  [00:02:05] Tony Arsenal: trying to like- There, there's a lot going on.  [00:02:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah ... yeah, coordinate everything.  [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the things that they... And they're at weird times this year too- Yes ... at least so far they are.  [00:02:11] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:02:11] Hydration Breaks Rant [00:02:11] Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the things this year that I noticed that I didn't know was happening, and I hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it, is, uh, I, I guess I understand why they're doing it, but they've instituted what they're calling mandatory hydration breaks-  [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: Oh,  [00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: I've read about this uh, into the games. Yeah. And essentially what this has done is it's turned a game that used to be, uh, and has always been two 45-minute halves-  [00:02:38] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm ...  [00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: um, uh, with overage time, right? So, like, the, the ref will sometimes just, like, add a couple minutes. Usually it's, you know, three to five, maybe 10 minutes at the most to the end of the, the half. They've turned that from, uh, two 45-minute halves into now four, what is that? Like, 23-minute quarters, 22 and a half- Right ... minute quarters. Um, and they're not always quarters. They're not always evenly split. They sometimes do the hydration break early or later. Um, this is awful. It's just awful, right? One of the, one of the, um, maybe this is me being a little bit of a soccer purist. One of the things about soccer that makes it a challenging sport is the endurance of it.  [00:03:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: Right? And contrary to what I think most people think when they watch soccer, um, it's one of the few games, few professional games that doesn't have a ton of breaks- Right? There's not a lot of times where, where match play actually stops for any real amount of time. Um, and that's what stoppage time is. It's not intended to be something like football, where there often is time on the clock where the clock is still moving, but the game is not, like, actively progressing forward, right? Right. You have to do something special to stop the clock. In soccer, uh, at least historically, 45 minutes of play is 45 minutes of play. It's, it's 45 minutes of actual actionable play. And now, um, you know, they stop the game. The clock doesn't continue, but now the game stre- like, the, the game itself stretches longer 'cause they've introduced these additional breaks. So I'm denying, uh... This just sounds like s- I'm such a ghoul here. I'm denying mandatory hydration breaks, not because I want soccer players to get sunstroke. Uh, they get plenty of water. There's plenty of times they get to stop and get water. It's- And this is... We didn't have mandatory hydration breaks when the World Cup was in Qatar. Right. Right? And everybody, for the most part, was fine. Like, the players were all fine. There were no casualties on the field. I don't even recall, like, major medical problems on the field. We're in LA now. Yeah, it's warm, summer, but come on, guys. Like, let's, let's, let's be real. This is not, uh, this is not rec league. This is not, you know, U15 league play with, with kids. These are adult men who condition for a living. Like, this is their job, is to be conditioned and for their bodies to be in peak performance. So it's just... It just interrupts the game. I don't know. I'm, I'm being a little crotchety here, but I feel like I have a right to be 'cause this is my show, and I can do what I want to. That's absolutely true. So I'm denying hydration breaks, mandatory hydrat- hydration breaks, which change the game. And a commentator actually commented about that on, on the match the other day. Um, it changes the dynamic of the game. It changes the strategy of the game. Um, it changes the whole feel of the game, right from the strategy of how long you have to be able to go, right? This will change how- how footballers have to condition themselves, 'cause they're no longer having to condition themselves for two 45-minute halves. They're having to condition themselves for four 22-and-a-half minute quarters, um, which is not the same game as, as that. So anyway, we'll- it's yet to see, be seen if that has any real impact on the outcome of any games or anything like that. But it was annoying to me, so I'm denying mandatory hydration breaks. [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's great. We haven't had a good denial in a little while on this podcast. I think that's fantastic. I mean, not the break, but the denial itself. Plus, and I don't wanna be... You'll have to tell me if I'm speaking conspiratorial here, because most of my apparent World Cup and general sports news still comes from The Wall Street Journal, so that might be a weird place to get it. But- ... the, I became aware of this through an article that was lamenting the exact same thing. Yeah. It was just basically all the arguments that you said. Like, it's weird, and the game wasn't designed this way, and it's definitely like an interruption. It's definitely like an insertion.  [00:06:32] Ads and Soccer Purism [00:06:32] Jesse Schwamb: And then, of course, was all the stuff about, isn't this really about just allowing commercial break time, and it's more about that, and we're just conveniently saying that we need the hydration breaks. And what else would they, we have them do if we needed to force them to take a break but say, "You know what? Why don't you guys take a knee and get some water- Yeah ... while we show you some ads?" So I imagine that doesn't sit well with people either.  [00:06:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that that's the case. Again, I, I haven't even been able to watch a full, full World Cup match, so I don't, I don't know... I don't even know how long the hydration breaks are, to be honest with you. But yes, it's an interruption in play where they can cut to commercial. And whether that was why they put this in place or not, or whether they're just utilizing it, it's obnoxious. Like, part of the fun of watching soccer is that there is no commercial break for the first 45 minutes. Right. Um, that's just part of- Which is unusual in sports ... part of the joy of the game, is that it's a continual game with no real breaks. Um, even when, like, a player is injured because, you know, there's an injury on the field or something like that, um, even when that happens, they don't cut to commercial because there was no planned commercial. They don't have anything there. Right. So, um, it's changed, like, the way... Y- you know, even, even things like this is gonna change how uniforms are thought out, because sponsorship money through uniforms used to be the m- one of the main commercial-driving, like, sponsorships for, um, for the game. So I'm just annoyed by it. [00:07:53] More Rule Changes [00:07:53] Tony Arsenal: There's an- a couple other things that I'm annoyed by this year. They have this... It's kinda like that automatic up call checker thing we talked about. Right. They have this, like, um- They call it mistaken identity, uh, recheck. Basically where if a player is fouled or appears to be fouled, they can, someone can flag it and it will recheck it and, like, digitally the system tells them whether there was a foul or not. And like I said before when we were talking about this a little bit before, um, there is a real element in the game, or there has been a real element to the game historically, where the ump is almost like, or the ref is almost like a third player, and you have to be wise and play the ref. Um, you have to, you know, there's, there's an element of a little bit of, uh, espionage and subtle- Right you know, subterfuge here going on in the game that I think people outside the game who are just watching, they look and they think like, "Oh, yeah, that guy flopped." But there's a whole, like, art and there's a whole form to that, and there's real cost if you do it poorly. Um, and so, like, we've already had one instance where a yellow card was called on a player. Uh, the other player simulated the foul. Um, and so they reversed it and gave the other guy a yellow card, but they did that after the game. Um, which, which is a whole other thing. Like, you play a whole game, um I could talk about this all night. Like when you get, when you get a red card- ... you're, you're out for an entire game, not just- Right the rest of this game. You're out for an entire game. Your position is out for an entire game, so that might mean you start the next match down a player. Well, what does that mean if you are given a red card sort of posthumously after the match, right? Right. Like, you- it's changed the whole calculation because for the whole game, that player, uh, was playing as though he didn't have a yellow card. And that, maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, but he was playing the game as though he didn't have a yellow card, and then all of a sudden now he does. Um, he doesn't go... I don't think he goes into the next match starting with a yellow card. Um, a- and so I'm kind of like, "Well, what's the, what's the point?" But, um, you know, some of that plays into, like, if there's ties and ties, match, match point ties, then they start looking at who has penalties and stuff. But either way, it's annoying that they, they're introducing this. Like, we didn't need to have... Yes, there's probably a place for reviewing a, a bad ref's calls. Right. They've also added, like, automatic on offsides. There was a whole strategy and a whole part of the game of forcing a person offsides, of drawing a person offsides, being offsides without looking like you're offsides. Some people may look at that and go, "Well, that's cheating," but no, it's actually just part of the game. Right. Like, playing the ref and understanding that is part of the game. And now it's still part of the game, but it's part of the game in a different way, and that's... Maybe I am just being a purist, but I just, I don't like it. I don't like it. Give me back my beautiful game the way it's always been and get off my lawn, get off the turf, get off my pitch, whatever. Um, I'm denying the fact that the World Cup is not as it's always been. But also, like, we don't need this stuff. Like, the World Cup has been fine for how many years?  [00:11:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:11:03] Tony Arsenal: We don't need water breaks like this- W- i- you know, if it was like last World Cup, five players died from dehydration in the middle of the... Like, okay, like yeah, let's do some water breaks. But like, nobody died. Nobody even had major medical emergencies. I think a couple people had to come out of the game a little early 'cause they weren't well-hydrated. But like- Right ... run to the side, get a water bottle. Like, you can do that in the middle of a game. There's nothing- Yeah ... against the rules to stand by the sideline, drink when someone's doing a substitution or even in the middle of the game. I've seen that happen, where someone will sprint over to the sideline, they'll take a drink of water, and then they'll throw the cup back over. So anywho, we should move on. This could be my entire, my entire rant of, for a whole episode- Good ... against the weird changes in, in World Cup soccer, so.  [00:11:48] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I love it.  [00:11:49] Peacock Spanish Hack [00:11:49] Jesse Schwamb: My favorite hack, uh, for World Cup soccer so far this year, and this was given to me by a colleague, uh, and a brother, I think this is fantastic, is right now because my wife is convalescing, we have all the subscriptions temporarily to allow, like, the full healing process to take place. Watch whatever you want, wherever you want. Except for the World Cup, because the, uh... I- it was just, like, where you could actually get it in English was, like, crazy expensive, at least for me. So here's the thing, though. Somebody reminded me uh, that we have Peacock and that because of Telemundo, could just watch and stream the entire World Cup in Spanish. So guess what, loved ones? We're learning a lot more Spanish- I love it ... and we're watching the World Cup with the announcers on. I'm not turning off that, 'cause that's the best part. And, you know, I'm getting, like, 25% of what's being said, but it is awesome. And there's- Yeah ... a lot more energy and excitement. So if for some reason you have Peacock and you're saying, "Oh, I'm missing the World Cup," technically you don't have to. It's all there for you. That's amazing. Just you gotta embrace Spanish.  [00:12:46] Tony Arsenal: That's amazing. And yes, actually, it probably is more entertaining.  [00:12:49] Jesse Schwamb: It is.  [00:12:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, and you don't, you don't need to... You really don't need to understand what the commentator is- No I mean, like 90% of the time the commentator's like, "Oh, he's having a good year," and, uh- ... yeah, like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, he's looking real great. Do you see how his, uh, laces are laced up?" Like, they're just trying to fill time.  [00:13:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: So it doesn't really matter what they're saying. And when it does matter what they're saying, you'll get it just from the-  [00:13:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes [00:13:11] Tony Arsenal: just from what the announcer's voices are doing. So I'll have to check that out. Yeah, the, the matches are at weird times, at least so far. I think, I think that once we get out of group play, m- a lot of the matches shift to the East Coast, so there'll be, uh, a little bit more normal times.  [00:13:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:13:25] Tony Arsenal: But, like, the first, the first, uh, US match was at 9:00 Eastern Time, and then, like, the last one's at 10:00 Eastern Time. Yeah.  [00:13:32] Jesse Schwamb: So  [00:13:33] Tony Arsenal: late. Yeah, super late, and it's a, it's a three-hour match by the time you, you get done with halftime and everything. So yeah, it'll, it'll... It's, it's frustrating. Although historically, um, every time the men, the men's team has won their first match, they've gotten out of group play, and every time they've lost their fir- first match, they have not gotten out of group play. And we, we really, really won our first match. Yes. Yeah. So I think, I think we'll get out of group play. I think probably, depending on how the, the cards roll, um, we'll probably, we'll probably get through our first elimination round, maybe our second, but we're not gonna go much further than that. Um, even, even that would be a, a pretty good victory, so- Anyway, football is life, right? Danny Ross. Um, do, did you watch Ted last night? Yes,  [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: I have seen it. Yes.  [00:14:25] Tony Arsenal: That was good. Football is life. Um, that's me this time of year. Like, I wore a soccer jersey to work on Friday, and nobody could tell me I couldn't do that, and I didn't care. So- I  [00:14:33] Jesse Schwamb: love it ...  [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: uh, nobody even tried. Everybody, everybody's fine. Everybody loves soccer- How dare they ... and loves the World Cup, so. Yeah. That's the truth. Anywho, save me from this. I, I literally could talk about soccer all night. This is the one sport that I get like this. And the... Not even the one sport. The one sporting event that I get like this about is the World Cup. I love it. So you've gotta, you gotta stop me or I'm not gonna, not gonna stop. Let  [00:14:54] Jesse Schwamb: it out.  [00:14:54] Hydration Tabs Recommendation [00:14:54] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I would say, like, we could play that game with our affirmations and denials where it's, like, six degrees of separation, but we only need one. And this is gonna sound like it was planned, but it wasn't. Your denial, of course, as you've just well articulated, was about hydration breaks. Turns out my affirmation is actually about hydration. So-  [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: Jesse's affirming hydration breaks. We're about  [00:15:13] Jesse Schwamb: to fight. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm definitely not a- affirming hydration breaks, but this might be the kind of hydration they're having. I don't know, but it's the one I'm gonna recommend. So where I live, it is the summertime, and where I live, we get both the heat and the humidity, and that's the oppressive part, isn't it? It's where it feels like the inside of a dog's mouth. And so I actually just came back from a run, and my go-to hydration break for myself is, uh, Nuun, N-U-U-N. And here's the reason why, is I've had Gatorade, I've had all the... I've had Liquid IV, I've had all that stuff. Most of the time it's r- too sweet. Nuun is just these effervescent dissolvable tablets that you drop into water, and it creates this low sugar electrolyte drink. It has all, like, the normal stuff. It has sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, chloride, all that good stuff, but there's just one gram of sugar. And it's this convenient little tab. Like, you can just get this whole little roll of tabs. You can carry them with you if you're going hiking or you're camping or you're out and gonna do a run. You just drop them into a bottle of water or whatever size water you want. I usually go 32 ounces is the way I like it. They have all, all kinds of flavors. It's just the right thing. Like, it's... It is like the refreshing thing of water, but when you're like, "You know what? I wanna taste something that's not water." So Nuun is, like, the right thing. I may have referred to it before, so I'm sorry if I did. But I'm referring with you can order it on, like, Amazon or any kind of, I don't know, general kind of camping or sports-oriented store is probably gonna be there. But it's... For me, it's the right thing because I don't know about you, but I find most sports drinks, like, in general too sweet. Like, you, you start... You have one, and then if I get through it, I'm kind of like, "Ugh, now I feel like my mouth is, like, really just coated in sugar, and that's not what I wanted." Yeah. So this feels like you're, you're getting a little less sweetness, but you don't feel guilty afterwards like you've just consumed a bunch of sugar. I will admit, I drink one I guess it's like 12 ounce Gatorade every week, just one. And this is because there's a delightful and loving, like, 72-year-old woman in our congregation who brings, I believe it's her own, she invests this every week. She brings for the team that is doing the worship through music Gatorade, uh, because she thinks we need to be replenished. So really, we have a hydration break- ... right before the service. But she, it's so beautiful and so delightful, I will never refuse it, and I am also on often parched at the time. So-  [00:17:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:17:31] Jesse Schwamb: it does work out, so.  [00:17:31] Tony Arsenal: Jesse's worship team goes real hard. They need to hydrate in the middle. They do a mandatory hydration break in the middle of the- It's, yeah middle of the service.  [00:17:39] Jesse Schwamb: It's mandatory. Yes. We are strict.  [00:17:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's an, it's a good time for announcements and commercial breaks. Um, yeah. I, I think, uh, and you're... I don't know if you're gonna believe me when I say this. With all of the Nuun that passes its way around the family home when we're all here- Yeah at summertime, I've never had-  [00:17:57] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, really? ...  [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Nuun. Yeah. We never tried it. I think our go-to for, for sort of powdered energy drink or powdered, uh, sports drink is little Propel packets.  [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: Um- Oh,  [00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: that's not bad either. Propel's not bad. I like Propel. It's very sweet, but it, it doesn't- Yeah ... um, Propel- doesn't add sugar. I think that they've, they've got their formula where it's a sugar-free formula. Um, but it is very sweet. So sometimes I'll only do, like, a half a packet of Propel- Yeah ... which I know kind of, they, they argue that or they, like, advertise as, like, "It's the perfect balance of electro-" I don't know if it's the perfect balance of electrolytes, but- Um, but some is better than none probably. Yeah. And, uh, Propel is not better than Nuun apparently, so.  [00:18:36] Jesse Schwamb: I, I, I think Nuun is, like, top shelf electrolyte. And you can get it, like I said, in lots of flavors. One of the fun things is you can get it caffeinated or uncaffeinated. I mean, most, most of it is uncaffeinated. But if you're like you wanted to have some, they have a what they call Kona Cola, and it is cola-flavored and has caffeine. It's amazing, because it's, like, just slightly effervescent, a little bit bubbly. Not too much. It's still, like, refreshing, but if you like the cola flavor, which as you know is its own distinct combination of elements and spices, then it's right on. So- Yeah ... it's really nice. So there you go. Yeah. Nuun- I- And if you're gonna take a hydration break because you're being forced to while you're playing soccer, I highly suggest you choose Nuun. That's the way to go.  [00:19:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they're drinking. I think most of the time they're just drinking water.  [00:19:26] Jesse Schwamb: Probably.  [00:19:26] Tony Arsenal: So I, I don't... I mean, I, I think you're supposed to drink something with some electrolytes, so maybe they have some electrolyte-  [00:19:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah ...  [00:19:32] Tony Arsenal: water in it. I don't know.  [00:19:33] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. Probably.  [00:19:34] Join the Telegram Group [00:19:34] Jesse Schwamb: Here's the thing. If you wanna tell us what you like to drink or when you are, let's say, serving the Lord's people by participating in worship through music and you're forced to take a hydration break, as I am at times, then you need to go to t.me\reformedbrotherhood. Put that into your browser right now. Take a hydration break and put t.me\reformedbrotherhood into your browser and that will send you to a link for Telegram, which is just a little chat app in which we have a small corner of the world. It's brothers and sisters listening to the podcast, interacting, and it's about time, actually, we probably had some kinda taste test stuff-  [00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah with,  [00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: like, these kinda hydration drinks. There's so many of them now. Some of them are, like, purposely salty. Some of them are really sweet. Some have all these crazy and wild flavors. Some of them have all kinds of caffeine. So let us know what you like, but best way to do that- Please ... is join the Telegram group. [00:20:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And please do not, uh, do not make your church stop their service for a hydration break. Please don't do that. The only hydration break I wanna hear you talking about in your church service is a baptism. So please-  [00:20:38] Jesse Schwamb: I knew that's  [00:20:38] Tony Arsenal: where you were going ... do not interrupt the Lord's day for a hydration break. Just if you need water, just, like, step out of the room, take a drink of water, come back. Or if you're in a church that lets you have water in the sanctuary, like most do, just take a drink. That's true. You don't have to- Yeah ... stand up. You don't need to have- That's good ... anyone interpret. Just take a quick drink and then be quiet. Just  [00:20:54] Jesse Schwamb: go to the sidelines, maybe sub out- Mm-hmm ... with somebody else who can play bass, and take a quick drink.  [00:21:00] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Come back. Yeah. Or just dump the, dump the Propel powder straight in your mouth.  [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: I thought you were gonna say like have somebody come up, preferably like an elder, and just hose you down with a thing of Gatorade while you're, while you're  playing  [00:21:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, exactly. Just go up to the baptismal font, take a scoop of water, dump the Propel directly in the baptis- no, I'm just kidding. I shouldn't joke about that stuff. Yeah.  [00:21:19] Back to Matthew 25 [00:21:19] Tony Arsenal: Anyway, Jesse, I'm excited because although we are probably gonna round out this parable, we're not done with these parables because- Oh, yeah, that's  [00:21:28] Jesse Schwamb: right [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: although we're gonna finish this parable this week, we'll probably finish it and get started talking about, uh, the next, the little chunk of text, which is not a parable, but we can't really, uh, divorce it from these parables 'cause they're all telling, they're all making the same or a very similar point about what the kingdom of heaven will be like in relation to the end times- Mm-hmm in relation to the eschatological, um, outcome of all things. Uh, and, and Christ in his teaching, um, he kind of rounds out this teaching and finalizes what these parables mean by talking to us about the sheep and the goats. Um, which again, is not really formed like a parable, but, uh, but it has very similar structures. It has some similar elements to it. Um, but it, it's so integral to what these, all what this sort of like, uh, anthology of eschatological parables mean in all the discourse. We really have to cover that to, to cover the others fully. But tonight we're gonna finish our discussion about the parable of the talents, which I'm excited about because I think we're gonna, we're gonna round out on some stuff that, um, I, I hope you've heard, uh, is probably not as, um, prominent as it should be. Uh, and this, we talked about last time that this parable has been, uh, not necessarily applied properly in many popular- Right ... teachings. Uh, and so I'm, I'm sure you've heard not so great interpretations. Hopefully we're gonna give you an interpretation that's a little bit more accurate and faithful to what the Bible teaches. [00:23:00] Reading the Parable Text [00:23:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so we're gonna pick it up in verse 24 of Matthew 25, because you'll probably recall, and if you haven't it's because you need to go back and listen, that we talked about the first two of these servants and the return that they were able to garner on the investment which the Lord gave them when He went away. And then there's the third dude. So we're gonna pick it up there and go all the way to the end of this, which allow us to close it out. So beginning verse 24, "And the one also had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you'd be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, have what is yours.' But the master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave. You knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed; therefore you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have at least received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has more, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who does not have, even what he does not have,' excuse me, 'what he does have shall be taken away. And throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"  [00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:19] Textual Notes and Transition [00:24:19] Tony Arsenal: There, there's some, um, some textual things about this that I think, uh, we sh- should at least acknowledge. I don't know that we're gonna dig too deep into them. Um, it is very possible to, um, to read verse 30 Almost as an interpretive statement in itself rather than part of the, um, part of the parable itself. And, and so let me, let me see if I can, can parse that out. So if we read it as though it's part of the parable, then it is the s- the, the master in the parable who is saying, "And cast the worthless servant into the darkness; in the place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." I think that's the most natural reading, so I'll, I'll put my cards on the table that I think that we should read this as part of the parable itself. It's also possible linguistically and grammatically to sort of read this as an explanation, where Christ is now taking this principle of what has happened with the worthless servant, right? That even what he has will be taken away. And then, and then to sort of read this as a commentary that sort of, uh, like we saw before, um, kind of bridges this section with the next. So instead of reading, "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness," uh, as though it were part of the parable, that it was this master within the parable saying this, we can read this as Christ saying that this is what will happen to those who are worthless servants. And then that follows up with, in verse 31, kind of h- connecting to when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all nations. Right. Th- this next sort of, like, more explicit, non-parabolical, um, uh, eschatological teaching. I think that former one is more natural, but just because it's, it's present in a lot of the commentaries that this is there, I wanted to at least call that out. I don't know that it makes a ton of difference in terms of how we understand the parable, but I do think, you know, part of what it means for us to wrestle through this is not just to take a particular position on the text, but to discuss, like, some of these ambiguities that are present. Um, and, and sometimes, um Sometimes I think we need to be cautious and really think through, because, uh, let me, let me rephrase it this way. None of the teaching in the Bible is sort of uninterpreted, untranslated, raw teaching of Christ. All of this is coming to us from the apostles retelling it, and yes, inspired by the Holy Spirit, so all of it's God's Word. But it's not as though, um, it's not as though Christ was first speaking in Greek. That's the big thing. But there are some places in the New Testament, in the Gospels, where it's not always clear whether a passage is Christ speaking or the, uh, the Gospel writer interpreting what Christ is speaking. This is one of those places where there's a little bit of a question mark about that. Um, again, I think the most natural reading is to read this as part of the statement of the master within the parable, but I did wanna just comment on that before we moved on much further.  [00:27:31] Buried Talent Scandal [00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's helpful because I think we've gotta understand that end in light of how it's evolving. And we, we're starting with that stark contrast between the first two, which receive this great reward, which receive accolades and praise, and then you have this one talent servant's response is all about hiddenness. He just digs a hole, puts it in the ground, and hides it away. Which by the way, of course, we talked about this in the other parables, like in the ancient world, burying valuables was recognized as a form of safekeeping. I mean, I think even Josephus mentions that. We talk about the pearl of great price. There was something to be known for, well, I have this valuable thing. The best place for me to, the best place for me to put it so that it isn't compromised is in the ground, in a secret place. And there's like a surface level, I guess, reasonableness to that act. But what's interesting and where it comes in with that heat that you're kinda talking about, that ends up being in the end this grand statement of the eschatological, eschatological reality, is that the parable here with this one talent servant treats all that action as like complete catastrophic failure. And I, I think as much as I can understand it, it's because the master did not give him this talent to protect it from loss. He gave it to him for, to use it for gain And so the servant has mistaken the nature of that commission entirely. He substituted like the security-seeking for risk-taking faithfulness. And so I think that informs some of then what happens in these latter verses here, like when we get all the way down to 30. Because I think when we read that, we see the, like the redistribution as scandalous. But the scandal really is in this lack of actions. Like gifts exercised grow, but gifts buried, they just atrophy. So the one t- talent servant's talent is taken because he's, he's already been treated as n- as it was, was nothing. He's functionally like forfeited it by burying it. And so the transfer of the 10-talent servant is the formal confirmation of what his own choices had, had already produced. I think there is something there about like the eschatological reality, reality that will unfold in the judgment, which of course leads to, into the end of this chapter  [00:29:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right on that.  [00:29:39] Misreading The Master [00:29:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, what we see the problem with the one talent servant is not, um, not that he's not productive.  [00:29:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:29:49] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think that's, that's actually the symptom of the illness, not the illness itself. What we see with the, the one talent servant is that he misunderstands his task, as you're pointing out, but more foundationally, he misunderstands his master, right? And that, that's really the, the main point of the parable when we kinda get... You know, Christ, um, when He's telling a parable, He explains the parable. Sometimes He doesn't explain the parable at all. He just sorta drops the parable and then moves on. Other times He will give the interpretation itself, like directly. We saw that in the parable of the, uh, of the soils or the parable of the sower. Um, and, and other times the kind of like the main explanation of the parable is, is actually embedded in the parable. And I think for this parable, the main explanation is when the, the one talent servant, uh, comes forward and he, when he's explaining why he did what he did-  [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right [00:30:48] Tony Arsenal: he says, "Well, I knew you were a," uh, let me just find it for sure here. He says, um, "I knew that you were a..." I just lost it. My brain is totally lost here. You ever have that happen where you're trying to find a word- Yes ... on a text and you just can't? He says, "Master," in verse 24, he says, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. So I was afraid. I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours." There's a number of statements in here that just don't make any sense. Like, they're just... Like you said, a lot of these parables have kind of like a chump figure, where, like, he's sort of like the designated idiot of the parable. [00:31:31] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:31:32] Tony Arsenal: In this instance, there's so much wrong that it's almost hard to find something right. And, you know, he starts out, he says, "I knew you were a hard man." There's nothing in the parable, there's nothing that suggests that this is a hard man. There's nothing to suggest that. He, as we said last week, he trusts these servants with an almost unimaginable amount of wealth, right? He just leaves hundreds of years worth of wealth in the, in the, like... And it's not even like he's going off to war and he may never be coming back. He's just going on a journey.  [00:32:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:32:05] Tony Arsenal: He's just traveling for a little while, and he's like, "I'm gonna leave 100 years worth of labor with this guy and 40 years worth of labor with this guy and 20 years worth of labor with this guy." He, what, what, in what world is that a hard man who just blesses and trusts his servants with that amount of unimaginable wealth? But then he says, "I knew that you, uh, reaped where you did not sow and gathered where you scattered no seed." First of all, um, what kind of person accumulates this kind of wealth without reaping, uh, without the, like, a- apart from the principle of reaping and sowing and gathering and, and scattering? Like, he obviously is a very successful businessman. Um, the, the fact that this, uh, servant is couching this in agricultural terms, I think it's reasonable to think that this is a very successful landowner who has made good use of his land, has turned a profit Obviously he's reaping where he sows and he's gathering where he scattered or he wouldn't have this kind of money to throw around to leave with his servants in the first place. But the servant doesn't recognize that the fact that he was given one talent is in fact the master reaping or sowing and scattering the seed of these talents. So he's saying like, "Well, you reap where you have not sown," but the fact is like he was sown a full talent worth of resources and he, the, the master expected to reap what he had sown when he gets back. So this servant He's worthless and he's lazy, but he's also just kind of dumb in that he just doesn't- Right ... recognize the reality of what's going on. He has an incorrect understanding of who the master is. He thinks he's a hard man, when actually he's an incredibly trusting and generous master, right? The, the ESV masks this as servants. We're not talking about hired hands here. We're talking about slaves. Right. We're talking about h- probably about household slaves. This is doulos. These are the slaves that work in the fields, um, as opposed to, like, diakonos, which are the slaves that work in the house, right? These are, these are field servants. These are laborers that are indentured or are, are in servitude, and he gives them enough wages, enough labor, enough money, they could just take off and leave with it. They could buy their own freedom with this. Right. He trusts them with that. That's not a description of a hard man, a hard, lazy man who sows w- reaps where he doesn't sow and gathers where he doesn't scatter. So the primary issue here with this servant is not that he's lazy, although he is lazy. It's not that he's wicked. He is wicked. It's that he doesn't recognize who the master is. He doesn't understand who the master is and what is expected of him as a servant of that master, which I think, I think, as I've thought about this over the last week or so, I think that actually says everything about the eschatological import of this, right? Yes. Who is it that's not going to be saved in the last day?  [00:34:56] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:34:57] Tony Arsenal: It's the people who don't recognize the master. Right on. The people who think that the master is a hard man who reaps where he has not sown and gathers where he has not scattered. Well, if we think that's who God is, we have a lot of trouble coming our way. [00:35:10] Fearful False Theology [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that is the heart, right, of this dude's sin. It's a false theology of God that produces then this fearful inaction. Because, like you said, it's not just that he's been lazy. He has constructed this weird, distorted picture of his master, and then he allows that distortion to govern his behavior. So this, quote-unquote, "fear" is not like the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom, but it's this kind of craven dread that's rooted in a mischaracterization of the master's entire character. And one of the things that I think, among many, that's really great about the Reformed theological tradition is that it's always assisted, and I th- hopefully we along with it in our conversations, that, like, the right theology is not merely academic. It does shape the whole life, which is why, like, Calvin famously opens his institutes with this observation that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are bound together. So- Yeah ... a person who genuinely knows the living God as gracious, generous, long-suffering, with that kind of hesed kind of love, who is good- W- that person will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding is always, I think, going to retreat in this fearful, minimal kind of minimum champion-type compliance. It's the same thing, I think I always think about this for some reason, and mention it a lot probably, but it's the same thing with Joseph's brothers finding all their money back in the sacks-  [00:36:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:36:32] Jesse Schwamb: with their food. It's, like, in that instant moment, all they have is fear and dread. And it- for this guy, that's exactly what he has. But it doesn't start, like you're saying, merely because he realizes that he should have done more, or he's comparing his return with that of everybody else, or even that he's going back and taking a look at his own actions and finding them to be full of want or lack. In fact, he does a really good job, at least in his own mind, theologically justifying his behavior. So here, what he, the real crime, the real shame, the real sin is that somehow he views the master as harsh and demanding and exploitative. That's wild. But of course, that was the root of everything else, which I think does give us pause to reflect on our own lives, like I said, as we come to understanding how this parable reads us. [00:37:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:37:21] Red Letters And Commentary [00:37:21] Tony Arsenal: And, um- Part of the reason why I think it's important to understand what I was talking about earlier with, you know, the, the Gospels are an interesting sort of like composite document in that, yes, they contain the true sayings of Jesus, the true, true, um, words of Christ. But this is also, a- and I promise that this will loop back around, this is, um, this is important for us. The red letters are no more God's word than the black letters, right? Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is, like, the, the so-called words of Christ in scripture are not more inspired or more profitable than the words that are the commentary of the apostles. And I only say so-called, and I'll explain why I say that. As I said, like, Matthew is translating, uh, he- first of all, he's recalling what Christ has said. He's, he's probably not, um, sitting there with a, with a quill and a, you know, a piece of paper or a piece of parchment- Right ... transcribing what's, what Christ is saying as he goes. Right? He's, he was there. Matthew was there. He's recalling what Christ has said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He's making editorial decisions about what Christ taught in terms of like, what of Christ's teaching do I capture? What do I summarize? And I think there's ... It's important because every word is inspired, but also it's understandable. And what I mean here, and what, the reason I'm kind of belaboring that is I think there's an interesting thing that happens in verse 29. It says, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. And from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken." So this, this concept actually that, um, that verse 30 might be, uh, might actually be Matthew's commentary or even Christ's explanation of the parable, I think that actually, that actually expands to verse 29 in some of the commentators. So if we read it this way, and I think this, this may be valuable for us to at least ponder. If we read it this way, verse 27 is still the master in the parable space. It says, "Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has 10 talents." There's a way of understanding this text, uh, and it's grammatically acceptable. I think theologically it doesn't change a lot, but it's worth us at least considering this. There's a way of reading this text where that's the end of the parable, and then Christ is explaining the parable, or Ma- or even maybe Matthew is commenting on the parable. It says, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But to the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." Now, I think that, um, as I said, the most natural way to read this is that the parable proper ends with verse 30, that all of this is part of the parable, all of this is the master in the parable speaking. But I do think verses 29 and 30 take on a more explanatory, um, uh, explanatory role, and this is the main reason why. The, the one parable, one talent servant in the parable, he's not properly described as the one who has not, right? He had one talent. He was given one talent. Right. It's not as though he had zero talents. The one who has not, even what he has will be taken away, and the one who has, more will be given.  [00:41:01] Has And Has Not [00:41:01] Tony Arsenal: This is actually, I think, where we can go really sideways on this parable. I hear this parable often interpreted as sort of this understanding that, like, God has blessed His people with certain gifts, and we have to use our gifts in the kingdom to be productive, and people who use their gifts in productive fashion will be given more responsibility and more opportunities. People who don't use their gifts, whatever opportunities they have will be taken away from them. Now, I, I would argue that's probably true on a practical level, um, and that's just actually just true in general, right? Right. A person who has responsibility, th- think of, like, your working environment. M- you know, all, most of our listeners are not working in regular pastoral ministry. This is one of those areas where I think, actually, the corporate world is more representative of how things are. Um, in the corporate world, if you are given responsibility and you excel and use that responsibility well and you are a productive servant of your company that you work for, you're going to be given more responsibility, whether that's in the form of a promotion, which is the ideal circumstances, or whether that's just your responsibilities as assigned, a job description expanding without pay. Either way, if you do a good job, if you, if you take the sphere of influence, the sphere of responsibility that you're given and you do a good job and you shepherd that well and you steward that well, that sphere of influence, that sphere of responsibility will expand. Um- If you squander it and you sit in your office watching TikTok videos or listening to music and you don't use that, uh, responsibility well, that sphere of influence will shrink, and ultimately it will shrink until you no longer have a job, right? It works a little differently, I think, in, like, traditional pastoral roles, and I think there are some in our audience that, them, are in those roles that this may not fit. That's a good general principle. I don't think that's what this is teaching. Like, I don't think this, this parable is about, like, productive ministry opportunities. Right. And if it was, we wouldn't be talking about people who have none, have not, right? We would be talking about people who have less. We'd be talking about people who are given less responsibility. The person who has no responsibility is who's in view here. And that's why- Mm ... I think it actually, this is shifting, this ex- explanation, whether it's, uh, sort of like an explanation, an explanatory punchline to the parable that's part of the parable itself, or whether it's Jesus or Matthew commenting on the meaning of the parable. The difference between those two things is important for us to think about. It's not so important in terms of what the actual meaning is. Because the difference here is that what we've now done is we've shifted from the context of a financial grounded analogy in the parable to now a broader discussion about the fact that there are those who have, and there are those who have not. And the people who have will be given more, and the people who have not will be taken away from. And if we were talking strictly financially, then now we're, like, in, like, Occupy Wall Street, 1% kind of era. We're talking about salvation. We're talking about, um, we're talking about the fact that God gives salvation to some, and He does not give salvation to others. He gives grace to some, and He does not give grace to others. And to those who have grace, more grace will be given. To those who have not grace, more will be taken away. And the outcome of that- Is that the worthless servant who is the one who has not, the worthless servant will be cast into the outer darkness, right? This is a, an explanation of what it means to be a worthless servant who ultimately ends their time. Ends is not the right word. Who ultimately has the outcome of s- of outer darkness for all eternity. If this parable is just about how we use our giftings and our skills and our money for the kingdom, and we're expected to be productive and to, like, increase the kingdom through our tithing and through our, like our service, then this comment about, like, the outer darkness is really out of place. Unless, unless we earn our salvation by that. Which of course we know we don't.  [00:45:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Right.  [00:45:24] Wicked And Slothful Heart [00:45:24] Jesse Schwamb: Here's how I think everything you said is true, and the scripture actually bears this out because it was exactly where you're going with that, which is we're talking more about the identity. Like, what, what makes this servant or slave worthless? That's the critical question. And then if we understand that, it'll help inform how we then interpret this idea of sheeps and goats, which we'll get to in a whole other episode. But if you look at verses 26 and 27, where the master then responds to this slave calls him wicked and slothful, slothful, right? So that his, his basically lack of usefulness comes embedded or underneath those two terms. So one, obviously the wickedness here is moral. It's a failure to fulfill a covenantal obligation to the master, which we've been talking about. So again, it's not just about laziness. Like there's, there's so much more there. It's as if that's the entry point for the master to bring condemnation on him in two forms. One is that wickedness. The second is this idea of like slothfulness, which is dispen- I was gonna say dispensational, but what I meant to say is dispositional. So it's like, uh, like a subtle inertia of the will, and together they're describing a person, and I think this is a critical point. This is a person whose heart has never been genuinely aligned with the master's purposes. Now, when we understand it that way, I think, then everything that follows makes a lot more sense because it's not just about bad timing in the market. It's not just about being fearful that you're gonna lose money and you're risk-averse, so therefore you hid, hid everything. It's really this idea that this, this s- slave, this one talent slave, he was not on board, not vibing with, not aligned with, however you wanna say it, with the master's purposes from the very beginning. And there is maybe we might say like a minimum of faithfulness, even interest on the deposit that God requires. But the question of course is never am I doing what the five talent servant does, but it's always am I using what I have been given? And in this way, like are we finding ourselves aligned, that our hearts are leaning into, that we find ourselves tilting towards what God has for us, both understanding who He is and who we are in light of who He is. What I find interesting is I found some really unique commentary from the great puritan William Ames in his book Conscience, with the Power and Cases Thereof. That's a title that only a puritan could- ... forward, um, where he actually treats this failure. So getting again to the sense of like why is it so grievous? Like in other words, why does the action of this servant, which we've already kind of touched on, lead into basically a character attack on the servant, and why is the connection between those two things legitimate? What he basically says is that he treats the failure to use one's gifts as God has given as a violation of the ninth commandment, which is bearing false witness against God's own estimation of those gifts. So this slothful servant, by burying his talent, effectively says, "This is not worth using." That is like the thing that God has given me, who God is Himself, I reject fully and outright. So why would that person then not be cast into outer darkness in kind of keeping with both like the, the breadth and scope of this parable, but also essentially what it's teaching about who this last, you know, servant is? [00:48:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, as you say that, I think too, um- There's an element of this that is Because it ties to this servant's misunderstanding of the master, and then, a- and I think you're, you're bringing Calvin in here and, and sort of the idea that our knowledge of God and our kn- knowledge of self are so, like, intertwined that it- Right ... it's almost difficult to understand which comes first. Yes. Yes. Calvin concludes that the knowledge of God is logically prior, but he, he also acknowledges that, like, it's really tough to sort of like figure out which one is more logically prior. This servant starts from the understanding that the master is a wicked master, that he is an immoral, lazy master. I- and it's, it's ironic. It does- the text doesn't say this, but I think it's a reasonable extrapolation. Um, the, the wicked, slothful servant projects his own wickedness and his own slothfulness onto the master, right? He, he projects that the master is a wicked man, is a hard man, and also that he's lazy. He, he does- he reaps where he doesn't sow, he gathers where he doesn't scatter. And the action of the, of the, the character of the servant is not derived from his inaction. Right. It's his inaction that- Yes ... causes the, or it's his, his character- Character ... that drives his lack of action, right?  [00:50:12] Sheep Goats Identity [00:50:12] Tony Arsenal: The good and faithful servants, they're not, and this is where we're gonna come when we come next week. Like, this is where we're gonna go when we get to next week's. Just as maybe, like, I, I want you to listen next week, but you probably don't need to, 'cause I'm gonna give you the whole punchline here.  [00:50:27] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:50:27] Tony Arsenal: The sheep act like sheep because they're sheep.  [00:50:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:30] Tony Arsenal: They don't become sheep because they do sheep things. They do sheep things because they're sheep, and the goats do goat things because they're goats.  [00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:37] Tony Arsenal: The wicked, lazy servant does wicked, lazy servant things because he's a wicked lady- lazy servant, right? He buries the talent in the ground because he's a wicked, lazy servant. The good, faithful servants j- just do what good, faithful servants do. They, they make a return on the master's talents because that's what they do, right? And I think where we have to be really careful and where, uh, the other pitfall that this parable can bring us to, and I kinda referenced it a little bit earlier, is there can be sort of this subtle works righteousness that creeps in, that we can believe if we're really good and productive for the kingdom, then that's what will earn us the good and faithful servant commendation when we, we cross into glory. The reality is there are those who cross into glory and hear good and faithful servant, right? There are those who will hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master." And there are those who will not. They will have what little they have taken away from them, and they will be cast into the outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, right? That's not a statement on what we've earned. It's a statement on who we are.  [00:51:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:51:49] Tony Arsenal: So you can either be the faithful servant who trusts the character of the Lord, who doesn't think Him to be a hard man, who reaps where He doesn't sow and gathers where He doesn't scatter. You can trust the master, and in the act of trusting the master and knowing His character, you just do what good, faithful servants do. You work hard, you follow the servant, the master's lead, and you produce a return on what is there. Right? In, a- and we didn't talk about this too much. In effect, these servants are reflecting the nature of the master.  [00:52:23] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:52:23] Tony Arsenal: Because you don't get to the point where you can leave 100 years worth of wealth to one servant, and 40 years worth of wealth to another servant, and 20 years worth of wealth to another servant if you have not yourself been a productive, faithful person who knows how to reap and sow appropriately, right? [00:52:42] Gospel Joy Or Darkness [00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: That is the key to this parable, is that the faithful servants image their master, and the wicked lo- like, slothful servant images what he thinks his master is This is the gospel call in this passage, right? The f- the, the faithful servants trusted their master. They trusted he was good. They trusted that he, they would be rewarded when he returned if they did a good job. Now, he- they're not rewarded necessarily because they do a good job. I mean, I think the text kinda seems like that. Right. But, but, but He just says, "You, look, you guys are good, faithful servants." He doesn't give them, like, a share of the profits. They're not, like, stakeholders in this. He just says, "Enter into my joy." Right? What, what does that mean? I don't know. It means enter into the same joy that the master has.  [00:53:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:53:30] Tony Arsenal: The, what the slothful servant doesn't get, he doesn't get to participate in the joy of the master, right? What little he has is taken away from him. He's cast out of the presence of the master. He doesn't get to participate in that joy. This is a picture, loved ones, of what the gospel is, and more poignantly, it's a picture of what it means to be lost. It's a picture w- of what it means to be outside of the grace of God, to be outside of His kingdom, is that we, we just n- not only are we wicked and sloth, which is its own kind of punishment. We're wicked and slothful, and we don't get to participate in the joy of the master. Instead, we get this outer darkness outside of His presence. Right. We're gonna talk more about what that means, because Christ pivots to now this more still kind of analogical, but more explicit teaching on what that looks like and what it means to be a productive member of the kingdom, what it means to be a faithful servant, what it means to be a wise virgin, what it means to be the, the person who seeks the pearl of great price. Like, all of these parables we've talked about, He now in the Olivet Discourse in verses 31 and following, He's going to give us the payout of what that actually means. What does the faithful servant look like in our real world? We're not talking parables. We're not talking images. We're talking about what it actually looks like to be the faithful servant who will enjoy the, the presence and the joy of the master. That's what we're gonna get into next week. So-  [00:55:02] Between The Advents [00:55:02] Jesse Schwamb: And so it helps us to probably- So- ... end where we began, which was with a reminder that these parables are fundamentally about how to live between those two advents. Yeah. Christ has ascended. He's gone on a journey. He will return. The master's coming back And the church lives in this meantime, and this parable defines what the meantime requires. Active, proportional, courageous stewardship. And the Reformed tradition, following people like Augustine and the Magisterial Reformers, have always insisted, and I love this, that eschatology is not a distraction from ethics, but it's the ground of ethics itself. Yes. And so we serve faithfully- Yes and amen because the master is returning. And next time we're gonna get to what that all looks like when he does return, when he calls everyone to give an account. What are the theological outworkings of this entire parable after he's explained what it means to live between the advents?  [00:55:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and the, the last thing I'll say before we try to figure out how to transition this into some sort of way to say- That should be fun our tagline.  [00:56:04] No Works Righteousness [00:56:04] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's so important for us to understand This is not a way for us to earn righteousness, right? Right. This is not a way for us to merit our justification, and, and I think this is something where there is some disagreement in the Reformed world. I want to acknowledge that. This is not a way for us to become more sanctified, right? I don't become more sanctified because I do good works, right? Justification, sanctification are both dual benefits that we receive m- from the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ alone, right? I don't sanctify myself any more than I justify myself or any more than I'm gonna raise myself from the dead. There is a way to read this parable where even if you're couching it in frames of sanctification where somehow we're doing that to ourselves, the reality is the faithful servants do what they do because they're faithful- That's right not because that's what makes them faithful.  [00:56:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Exactly.  [00:57:00] Tony Arsenal: Right? And we're g- like I said, we're gonna pay that out a little bit more next week when we talk about the sheep and the goats, but it's important for us not to let that sit. Any interpretation of this passage that has us understanding our final eschatological destination or our final sort of, like, nature as servants of God in somehow referring to the way we've served really is not a Protestant and especially not a Reformed hermeneutic of this text. Right. At the end of the day, the wicked, slothful servant is that because that's what he is. His actions flow out of his nature, not the other way around. So I'm super excited. I mean, I think, as I said before, we're coming up to the end of Matthew. We're kind of finishing up the Matthean parables. Um, we're gonna dip into some of the more unique ones. If I'm being honest, like, we could end this series now because the parables in Matthew really form the backbone of Christ's parabolic ministry, his parabolic teaching. Right. The other parables that we see in the other gospels really are kind of like flavor text or like, I don't know, like, uh, deleted endings, deleted scenes if you wanna use like a movie term. They're additional commentary on the parables, the main parabolic teaching of Christ.  [00:58:20] Study Scripture Together [00:58:20] Tony Arsenal: Um, and, and I'm, I'm excited to get there, but this has been such an edifying, just like really like soul-quenching series for me because as I've said before, we, we haven't... I have not spent as much time working through these parables verse by verse and just really, like, thinking about them deeply as I would've liked to. So I've loved that we've really spent that time in this series. Maybe we're just gonna become like a Bible study podcast and I'm fine with that. Because like- I love it ... I love systematic theology, and that's really my wheelhouse. I love- Mm-hmm ... historical theology. I love talking about the Confessions. But there's been something so- Soul feeding, like soul quenching Yes, life-giving About just digesting God's Word together Right So I wanna echo Jesse's recommendation earlier. If you're looking for someone to come- somewhere to come chat about this stuff, t.me/reformedbrotherhood. It's a great place to bring up biblical questions or just to digest biblical texts together. But even more so, like Take the Bible, read it, grab a friend from church and just say, "Can we just, like, work through this together and talk about it?" [00:59:25] Jesse Schwamb: Mm. ' [00:59:25] Tony Arsenal: Cause nothing beats going through these slowly and just saying like, "Let's really think through what this text means."  [00:59:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:59:33] Tony Arsenal: And I just don't think we do that as much as we maybe should.  [00:59:36] Jesse Schwamb: I agree with you. And of course, like, because we're people that wanna be learned, because we are readers, because we wanna understand and gather knowledge, it sometimes causes us to quickly run to other resources, not exclusively, but sometimes outside of the Holy Spirit. So what you just said, I was really struck with the conviction of grab somebody and open up that time by just asking that the Holy Spirit, he would illuminate, captivate, open up these scriptures to you and to those with whom you're speaking, which is often how we pray for this conversation, that that's exactly what God would do. And so we hope that he's doing that. We hope there was something in here, and if there was anything good, all of that belongs to God. The mistakes are clearly ours. But we hope that you will take this conversation and pull it into your own life. I have to ask, when you were talking about what we're gonna talk about next week, did you actually say we're gonna, like, pay it forward? Did you... Was that, like, a pun that you were also using, or did that just happen?  [01:00:30] Tony Arsenal: No, I think it just happened. I don't think I meant to even say that. We'll just call that providence.  [01:00:34] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so... That was so good. I love that.  [01:00:37] Support And Sendoff [01:00:37] Jesse Schwamb: There's one other place you can go and hang out, and that is the podcast does have a website. Sometimes we don't talk about it, but that's because it's, like, the best-kept secret on the entire internet. I'm not being parabolic or hyperbolic at all. And if you go to reformedbrotherhood.com, what you're gonna do is find that all the episodes, all of them, are living right there. They're for you. They're just there hanging out, waiting for you to search them with keywords for something that we've probably talked about maybe eight or 10 years ago. It's all there. You can find it. So if it's been a while and you've thought, "You know what? I wonder if there's ever been a conversation about this," if you even just wanna play the game, pick a word and go in there- ... and see what pops up. You can go find all those. And what you'll also discover is that shockingly, they're all free. There's no cost- Yeah ... to those whatsoever. And that happens because so many loved ones join us in making sure that all the costs are covered. So my last commendation to you all is if you're thinking, "You know what? I've been listening for a little while," or maybe it's the first time, and you think, "I wanna make sure that this keeps going," we'd be so thankful if you wanna support the ministry in doing that. And you can just go to the website, and there's a little link. You'll find your way. But it is available to those who would say, "You know what? I'd like to make sure that this is available to everybody without cost, without price, with no money. Come and listen." And that's how it's always gonna be here. You'll notice there is no insertion for a weird purple mattress commercial. Nor will there ever be. I mean, unless they wanna give us a lot of money maybe, maybe we, maybe we would accept that. But no, we will not do that, Purple. We will never do that. You  [01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: could not give me enough money to endorse Purple Mattress- even though I'm sitting on a Purple Mattress and it's wicked comfortable. I get zero dollars for that.  [01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Zero. Zero. So I-  [01:02:21] Tony Arsenal: Unless they wanna give us some money. If somehow you are an executive at Purple and wanna give us some money, we will take your money.  [01:02:27] Jesse Schwamb: A- and listen, we will not bury it. We will, we will use it- as best we can, by God's grace, for His lovely and conquering, overwhelmingly filled with love kingdom. We will absolutely do that. And of course, we're gonna come to the real conclusion of all of this talk, all of this parable stuff next time. So even though Tony gave us, like, the reverse tease and the permission not to listen to that episode  [01:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Please listen. Please listen to that episode.  [01:02:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be good. I can say right now it's gonna be good because God is good.  [01:02:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I can say that God is good because we're the worst podcasters ever- That's true ... in terms of, like, our call to action is always the very last thing we do. Uh, we- we're always just, like, like, uh, the fact that anybody gives us any money is a, is a miracle- We break all the rules because nobody who is listening to this show is still logged in to our episode. So just to wrap it up, because I don't know where we're going, I don't know how to finish this. Take us home. I'm just gonna say, Jesse, until next time, honor everyone.  [01:03:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 

In Episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb open with a rich discussion on the theology of congregational singing — including the Trinity Psalter Hymnal, the Getty's Sing!, and why psalm-singing belongs at the heart of Christian worship. The main event, however, is the first installment of their study of the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14–30). Tony and Jesse argue that this parable is widely misread as a lesson in personal productivity or spiritual gift deployment, when in fact its center of gravity is entirely eschatological and theological: the wicked servant's failure is not financial incompetence — it is a catastrophic misunderstanding of who the master is, and therefore, who he himself is as a servant of that master. Key Takeaways The parable is eschatological, not motivational. Situated in Matthew 25 as the second of three eschatological parables in the Olivet Discourse, the Parable of the Talents answers the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's coming — not a general lesson about using your abilities for God. "Talents" refers to an enormous monetary sum, not personal giftedness. A single talent represented roughly 20 years of a laborer's wages. Even the least-endowed servant received an immense, unearned gift — which makes the wicked servant's inaction all the more indefensible. The wicked servant's problem is theological, not financial. He doesn't bury the talent out of ignorance or fear alone — he actively mischaracterizes the master as exploitative and unjust. His failure is a failure of theology: he does not know who his master is. The commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant" is the basic reward of every believer, not a tiered prize for the most productive. The five-talent and two-talent servants receive identical commendations, suggesting the measure is proportional faithfulness, not absolute output. Faithful stewardship is active, not passive. Both faithful servants are marked by immediacy and energetic engagement. The parable does not explain how they doubled their talents because the mechanics are not the point — their disposition of active, risk-taking faithfulness is. The parable resists works-righteousness readings. Whether one is Augustine or an anonymous deathbed convert, every justified believer enters into the same joy of the master. The parable is not a theology of graduated heavenly rewards but a distinction between those who understand their master and those who do not. The talents represent the stewardship of the Gospel and the Kingdom itself. The master entrusting his servants with his property is a picture of Christ entrusting the church with the message of salvation — ownership remains with the master, the servants are stewards, not proprietors. Key Concepts The Wicked Servant's Problem Is Who He Thinks the Master Is The most common misreading of this parable locates the wicked servant's failure in laziness or timidity — he was simply too afraid to act. But Tony Arsenal argues compellingly that the servant's own words expose something far more serious. He says, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow." This is not a confession of fear; it is an accusation. The servant has constructed a theology of his master as an exploitative, unjust overseer who doesn't deserve a return. What he catastrophically misses is that the very possession of 20 years' worth of wages — an unearned, unimaginable gift — is the master sowing into him. His refusal to act is, at its root, a refusal to acknowledge the master's generosity and authority. This is the parable's most penetrating theological edge. "Well Done" Is for Every Believer, Not Just the Most Productive One of the episode's most pastorally significant observations is Tony's argument that the commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant — enter into the joy of your master" is not reserved for spiritual high-achievers. Because the five-talent and two-talent servants receive word-for-word identical commendations despite wildly different absolute returns, the logical entailment is that the one-talent servant, had he been faithful, would have received the same words. This means the commendation is not calibrated to productivity — it is the basic inheritance of every believer who enters glory. The soul-winner and the deathbed convert, Augustine and the unknown faithful, all hear the same welcome. The parable is therefore not teaching a graduated hierarchy of heavenly reward, but a binary distinction: those who know their master and act accordingly, and those who do not. The Parable Cannot Be Detached from Its Eschatological Context Jesse Schwamb is careful to anchor the parable in its literary and theological context: this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25, all part of the Olivet Discourse, all delivered in direct response to the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's return and the end of the age. Detaching the Parable of the Talents from that frame — and reading it instead as a general productivity principle or a theology of spiritual gifts — drains it of what Jesse calls its "gravity." The master going away and returning after a long time is a direct image of the ascended Christ and his parousia. The servants' task during the interval is not self-improvement or career stewardship — it is watchful, active discipleship in the time between the first and second comings. Everything in the parable, including the staggering sums of money, is calibrated to that eschatological frame. Memorable Quotes The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was — and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable. — Tony Arsenal Well done, good and faithful servant — that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get. That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world... you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, 'I trust Jesus.' — Tony Arsenal God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. The two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received. — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right? That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, the most amazing person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, I trust Jesus." Right. And they've produced no converts, no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. Welcome to episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.  [00:01:21] Parable Teaser [00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: You know, the parables just keep coming for us, like we've said. And on this episode, to, just to tee it up, to whet everybody's appetites, we've got three servants, one absent master, an uncomfortable amount of money. What could go wrong? Yeah. As it turns out, quite a bit, especially if you're the kind of person who responds to divine generosity by finding the nearest shovel. So we're gonna get to all of that in this, what I call, this now sandwich of eschatological parables or teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25. So hopefully you're curious, hopefully you're stoked. But you can go put your thumb right in the scriptures there, because you're gonna meet us there very, very, very, very shortly. But first we got business. It's always the business we must do, the part of the podcast where we affirm with something or deny against something. And as always, I'm really curious what you have, and now I understand you have a list, or you're keeping a list. So- I do ... never again will there be something like that falls to the cutting room floor, brothers and sisters. Tony is always gonna have for us whatever was- ... what came to his brilliant mind as an affirmation or denial at any point, day or night.  [00:02:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, Jesse, do you ever have... I know the answer to this question is going to be yes- Yeah. That's good ... but I'm gonna ask it- All right ... mostly for rhetorical effect here. This is good podcasting.  [00:02:38] Psalm 67B Praise [00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: Do you have, do you have those situations where, like, the, the so- a song hits you, and it's just, like, the right combination of words, but also the right combination of, like, musicality?  [00:02:49] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Where it just, like, it just, it just feels- For sure like, right and good in every part of your being. So- All the time, yep ... I, I'm affirming, um, th- this is like the most Presbyterian thing ever. I'm affirming the, the arrangement in the Trinity, uh, psalter hymnal for Psalm 67B. Now, I'm not gonna try to sing it for you, but I wanna read the words, because obviously it's, it's a paraphrase of a psalm. So, like, that's the first thing. Like, people, like, calm down. Like, it's okay to sing paraphrases. It's okay to sing. No one is actually singing the Hebrew psalms. Right. Amen. So, like, just calm down a little bit. Amen. Uh, there is a place for us to dedicate specific focus to psalms and songs that are from the psalms, but that can be something like Better Is One Day. Like, that's a song from a psalm. Anyway, that's a whole different, that's a whole different thing. Yes, I'm affirming psalm singing. Uh, yes, I'm denying overly rigid understandings of what that is. But here's the words for Psalm 67, Setting B. That's important It's, "O God, show mercy to us and bless us with your grace and cause to shine upon us the brightness of your face, so that the whole world over may truly know your way and so that your salvation all nations see displayed. O God, let peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. Let nations come rejoicing and songs of gladness rise, raise." Then, um, stanza two, "For you will judge the peoples with perfect equity. To nations of the whole Earth a governor you'll be. O God, let the peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. The Earth has brought its bounty throughout its harvest days.  [00:04:24] Why Sing Psalms [00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Since God our God will bless us, yes, God will blessing send, that all the Earth may fear Him to its remotest end." Now, there are lots of really great, uh, theologically sound, edifying hymns and worship choruses, but there's just something about the Psalms, right? It's inspired- Um- ... it's perfect. Again, like I said, nobody is singing the actual Hebrew Psalms, or even, I shouldn't say nobody, most people are not singing, like, the Psalms from the ESV, right? These are almost all paraphrases. They're, they're translations. But there's just something about the Psalms that I have grown so much to appreciate since joining a Presbyterian church. That's not to say other traditions don't sing Psalms in their own right, and again, like, we would sing Better Is One Day and other songs that were based on Psalms. Um, even, like, real direct translations or real direct versions of Psalms, like Better Is One Day or Create In Me A Clean Heart, there's all sorts of them. But there's just something about singing the Psalms, and this particular musical setting, it's triumphant, but not in the, like, fanfare kind of triumphant. Do you know what I mean, Jesse? Like- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's a triumphant melody, and it has, like, really interesting rises and falls and... So I, I'm gonna probably try to put this at the end of the episode. So listen. Hopefully I'll get the whole thing. Let me just, let me just do this. Hold on a second. It's just gorgeous. It's just beautiful. So I, I, I don't know what it was this morning. Uh, it's, I wasn't, like, promo- particularly emotional. It didn't, like, make me cry. Yeah. But all of that's fine. Like, I've been brought to tears in worship before, and that's, that's all good and well. There was just something about it that resonated, and I was like, "This is just good." Like, this is just good music. It's good singing. Something about hearing, uh, the whole congregation singing together. Like, it was just beautiful. It was just a beautiful moment. So if you are not in a psalm-singing church, first of all, why aren't you in a psalm-singing church? Uh, no worship leader on Earth, no, no person who is worth... Uh, when I say worship leader, I mean the person who's responsible for leading musical worship. No one who's leading worshipful music, worshipful? Worship music, if you approach them and say, "I would like to sing more songs that are based on the Psalms," if they say, "We don't wanna sing Psalms here," then you just go somewhere else. Like, someone who tells you, like, "We don't wanna s- we don't wanna sing God's Word," that doesn't make any sense to me.  [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, now again, like, there's a way to do it. Sometimes musically they're challenging, especially if you're singing out of something like the hymnal. But again, there are plenty of really good modern style songs and hymn style songs that are either based on the Psalms or are paraphrases, very similar to what you get in the, in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal. Or most, most people who are leading in musical worship are competent enough to just sort of take the sheet music and figure out how to do it on guitar or figure out how to play it on piano. Um, they're not that difficult. So you will be edified if you do this. Your church will be edified. There's probably a lot of people out there responsible for musical worship that actually would really like to do this, and they're kind of probably, like, just waiting for that nudge, so you may even be benefiting them. But yeah, this, this psalm is beautiful. It's just a gorgeous arrangement, and it's, it's perfect, inspired words. Really was a, just a, a balm to my soul this morning.  [00:07:51] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. And o- of course, a lot of that is still happening, which is such a glorious gift to the church. The couple of times that I've had the privilege of writing music for my own church has been right from the scriptures, and for me recently that was, like, Ephesians 1 and Psalm 16. And that's mainly because, like, as a lyricist, I'm not that creative, and I'd rather go direct to the source. And all those end up being a paraphrase, like you said, anyway. Es- especially if you wanna get turn of phrase or if you wanna have a little bit of rhyming, which is always a beautiful thing. I love the Psalter, and my, my hot take on that is I sometimes find that I like, I don't wanna call them, like, the alternate, but, like, the other secondary arrangements-  Yeah and  lyrics better. I don't know why. I don't think that's purposeful, of course. It's probably just my taste. But I always find them to be, like, super fire. I, I don't know why. The, the B and C versions always kinda grab me, especially if... And here's another thing that I appreciate about the Psalter, as you know, is sometimes those B or C versions will be written in an alternate key or a minor key. Yeah. And that's even more awesome, because there's not a lot of, let's say, like, cla- I don't wanna say classic. Classic slash contemporary, uh, Christian music or wors- quote-unquote worship music that's written in minor keys. But it's good to lament, as we've talked about before. So- Yeah ... you're gonna get that full breath and scope in the Psalter there. [00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:09:07] Beyond Music Styles [00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: A- and, you know, maybe let me put in one more little plug here. Um- I am not one of those people that is gonna say that there's like a particular style of music that's more godly than another. I've heard people try to make arguments that there's like certain kinds of rhythms or certain kinds of like beats that are- Right either, either more godly or somehow demonic or less godly. Um, I think there might be an argument to be made that some styles of worship are not suited well for congregational singing, so they may not be appropriate for like a, a congregational worship service. Like, you're probably not gonna go in and do a lot of hip hop and have the congregation be able to like stick with you. Right. That doesn't mean that you can't worship God through that or that it somehow is less like intrinsically beautiful. But, um, there are a lot of Let me just put it this way. In modern contemporary Western Christianity, uh, there's a lot of songs that are basically just the same thing musically. You know, you'll find, um, if you go to, like, YouTube, and, and maybe, like, be careful, 'cause sometimes some of these are, they're funny but they're a little bit crass. But if you look up, like, a video about how, like, every song is Pachel Bell's Canon. Right. Right? Every song follows the same basic arrangement of chords, and this gets even more pronounced when you're talking about modern worship music or contemporary mu- worship music, because it's designed to be able to be very simple and very easily played. Um, a lot of times worship directors are not super classically trained. Um, you think of, like, the youth pastor with the guitar around the campfire. Like, those kinds of songs have to be easy, 'cause they're not, like, classically trained guitar players. They probably picked up a chord book and figured out how to play a couple easy songs like Jesus, Lover of My Soul and things like that. That's how I learned how to play guitar. That's the extent of my skills, so I'm not, I'm not banging on that person. Um, but there are a lot, there's a lot more to music. Um, there's a lot more to singing, and there's a lot more to choral music than, you know, GCDC kind of like worship courses. Uh, and singing something like the Psalter, or even just singing out of a good hymnal- Right will actually expand your musical horizons. And there's something to be said about the creativity of our God being reflected in the creativity of His people that I do think we miss out on when we are locked into really simplistic worship styles. Um, again, like, I interpret Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to mean, like, sing in the vernacular of the people. Um, and I, you know, that's a different episode. We can talk about that sometime. But th- that, that requires the songs to be singable, and I think sometimes, uh, sometimes some of the song- some of the Psalters, some of the songs in the Psalter hymnals, and sometimes hymnals in general, are very difficult to sing. And so I think a congregation, the people leading in music need to be thoughtful of that. But I think you would do well to, like, open your horizons a little bit to something a little bit more challenging and a little bit off the beaten path. Like, this melody, I don't know the chords behind it. It may not be anything crazy, but that, like, musicality and that, that sort of, like, melody is not a typical... And this might be why it resonated with me. It's not a typical kind of melody you're gonna find in contemporary music. Um, it's, it's very different. It's older. It's more classically styled. The, it's, it's meant to sort of bring you up to these crescendos in ways that modern music is not necessarily. So enough about that. I don't know a lot about music theory, so I might be totally wrong and, and- ... people might be rolling their eyes. But I, I do think that there's something to it. Like, a lot of the older hymns- utilize chord progressions and melodies and harmonies and things like that that we're just not used to. You're not gonna get that listening to, you know, even something like, like the more musical kind, uh, more technically proficient music like something like Bethel or Hillsong, which is at times musically very good. Uh, I don't know that I would recommend listening to it, but the music is actually, like, technically very good in some instances. Uh, even there you're not gonna find a lot of this stuff. So instead of going there for, like, really nice sounding musical worship, just go to something like the Trinity Psalter app. You know, for $10 on a- on your iPhone you can sing with it. Um, yeah, enough about that. I, I, I could talk about how great the Psalms are and how great psalm singing is for an entire episode. We should do that episode- We should ... when we're done with the parables, 'cause I know we've done a lot of episodes on, like, uh, on, on, like, the regulative principle and- Right I, I think we're still both in the same spot that, like- Right ... exclusive psalmody is probably not where we would land. Right. But I think I'm coming to the conviction that the psalms should have a much greater portion of our worship diet, uh- Hmm ... than they do in most churches. Um, and I really only came to that conviction when I was in a church where psalm singing was the norm. Uh, I know that we try to have at least one s- one canonical psalm for every single worship service. Usually there's multiple, but, um, even in a, a, a setting where we normally wouldn't be so focused on that, we still try to have at least one, and it's been a, a really huge edifying thing to my soul.  [00:14:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I absolutely love that. You'll find no complaint from me on that. I think that that's a good reminder for all of us.  [00:14:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:14:14] Book Sing Recommendation [00:14:14] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, what do you have?  [00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: Well, it's, we're not gonna stop this conversation, just so you know. Because we don't sync up on these things ever, but it just so happens that I'm affirming with a book that it's a really simple primer on congregational singing-  There you go that has  long been on my list and overdue to read, and I am coming in hot with a recommendation for this, and that is the book entitled Sing! How Worship Transforms Your Life, Family, and Church by Keith and Kristyn Getty. And really, it covers so many of the things that you already talked about. I, I think at the foremost, it's a reminder that God cares whether in what we sing, but he does not mind how well we sing. Yes. But it is, like, the, this... What's true is that our voices might not be of a professional standard, but they are of a confessional standard. Yeah. And so it is incumbent upon every Christian to sing. And if you need just, like, a little bit of inspiration, so to speak, or a reminder of why that's important, I highly commend this book to you. In fact, in the back they have what's called, like, these bonus tracks. It's like four or five separate chapters that they've written just to particular people in the church, pastors, laypeople, musicians, even the people that help produce the sound. I found that bit to be so lovely and pastoral. It, it's gentle, the tone is encouraging, but it is also strong, and I appreciate that. So a lot of it is some of the themes that we've just talked about, but my conviction grows all the time of just how important congregational singing is, and how everything you just said, the music, the liturgy that we bring forward- has to be of a deliberate kind to strengthen that exercise, to make it easy, so to speak. And that does come into practical things like if you look at the psalter, and I, I don't... I have it on my phone, but I don't know where my phone is, so I was gonna look at the one you were referencing. My guess is it's, it's in probably a key with a couple of sharps in it, because those are the ones that are easiest to sing. So even little things like that matter. What you hear on the radio often is, or radio? People still listen to the radio? What you hear, like, in, like, contemporary music, like, often is not necessarily for congregational singing just in its key, and, and that's okay. And so even in my own church, we transpose things to make it reasonable and approachable. But what I think was, like, the critical question put forward in this book that I absolutely loved as a great reminder was: how did the congregation sing? It's very interesting that they kind of bring forward this thesis that that's how you should be judging your music. How did the congregation sing? And I think if we started asking that, it might slightly tweak or maybe change altogether, to your point, the methods and the practices that we use when we undergo worship by way or through music. So this is really great. It's easily readable, and it's for everybody, and it, there's a chapter on family worship as well, how to bring singing into your home and music into your home all the time as an act of worship so that when you get to the Lord's Day, your kids are like, "Yeah, this is our jam." Uh, especially maybe even recognizing some of the pieces of music and be excited about that. So there was a lot that made me think about here. It's fantastic. And to your point, Tony, I would say the Gettys, especially in, like, "Christ Alone," some of the other things, this is probably the closest to what you're talking about, where they've taken and imported kind of the classical hymn structures-  [00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: but modernized a little bit just the language while without sacrificing any of the theological richness or the musicality that draws your ear to those beautiful rising and falling melodies, the swelling of the vocal there, without, like, distracting from anything that's going on there. It's not emotionalism- Yeah but it certainly is filled with the emotion of what it means to be a Christian and to sing in response as an act of praise to God.  [00:17:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:17:52] Family Worship Singing [00:17:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I can't underscore enough the importance of congregational singing. We, we've, we've actually talked about, about it in context of, like, how important it is for the men of the congregation to sing, which is something I, I really appreciate about my congregation, is, is the m- the men just go all out. Like, people are, like- Love it ... nobody is, nobody is ashamed of the fact that they squawk on a note that they're not used to or anything like that. And where this really pays out, um, at least in our congregation, but I'd, I'd be willing to bet if you go to any congregation where the, where the men particularly are passionate and active in musical worship, right? Um, I think where this plays out is you see the children very quickly picking up those songs and learning them and singing them. And the, the favorite part of my day, this is gon- any parent of toddlers is gonna be like, "What are you talking about?" Bedtime is one of my favorite times of day, not just because it means that, like, in a little while I'm gonna get a little peace and quiet. Like, that's part of it, too, but there are two songs that we sing almost every single night, and Augie leads them, which is really great. He always wants to start, and he always wants to sing, and it's the Doxology and the Gloria Patri. And these are songs that he has just picked up from being in the congregation, and, you know, I, I don't remember consciously teaching him any of these songs. And now, now Adeline, who is, uh, my two-year-old daughter, almost two, she's starting to pick those songs up, and she's starting to sing them, and she recognizes them, and she responds very differently to those songs than she does to other songs. Um, it's funny because I don't, I don't know where she got this. Neither my wife nor I are particularly, uh, charismatic, emotive people. Like, we don't raise our hands when we're singing, but she, she does. She, she, when we start singing- My girl ... the Gloria Patri or the Doxology, her hand is in the air, and she's looking at the sky, and she's waving her hands around. Yeah. And, um, she recognizes that those songs have a different place than a Miss Rachel song. She doesn't put her hands in the air and wave and look up at the ceiling when Miss Rachel comes on or when Baby Shark comes on. She knows those songs. She can sing those songs. Um, but she doesn't- Respond to those in the same way. And that is a direct result of the fact that congregational singing is an important thing in the life of our church and in the life of our family. And I think a book like Sing, I haven't read it, but I've heard very good things about it, and the, the Gettys are rock solid, like- Right ... theologically. Yes. Musically. They're, they're well within our Reformed tradition, at least broadly speaking. Um, and, and they have a, they have one of the strongest sort of theologies of praise music that you're gonna find. Mm-hmm. It's not quite like a liturgiology or something like that, but it's, it's, it's a theology of praise worship, praise and worship music. Right. Um, and that's not something that's super common, right? There's a lot of theology of liturgy. There's a lot of practical theology on liturgy. Um, the Gettys have developed a really unique kind of place in things in that they've really developed this idea that congregational singing has a specific theological import, and they've developed it in a way that's approachable. So yeah, I haven't read it and I sh- I probably should, but it, it sounds like a really great book. And, um, I c- just can't underscore it enough. And- Maybe this is my little plug. Like, uh, family worship is really tough, and it's not something I've mastered. Like, we don't, we, we don't have a regular rhythm. But what we do have is we have a consistent, uh, we consistently pray at night before bed, and we consistently sing one or both of those songs. And that by itself, like, the kids are learning and they are, they're absorbing that by osmosis. Um, they're picking up the phrasing, right? Augie can tell you who the three persons of the Trinity are, and that's partially 'cause we do catechism questions, but it's also partially, and I would actually argue probably more, because of the Trinitarian structure of those two songs. Right. He's picked up the language of the Father, the Spirit, and the Son from the Gloria Patri and from the doxology in ways that probably I wouldn't have been able to teach him otherwise. So yeah. Anyway, I, I just co-opted your affirmation. But, um, but yeah. I'm here for it. Congregational worship, family worship, singing, uh, to our Lord is commanded, and it's commanded for our good- Right and for his, his benefit and his blessing. Um, and so any book that is, is solid and will help you do that, I, I'm wholeheartedly behind.  [00:22:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is... All that is fire. This is fire.  [00:22:19] Reclaim Congregational Song [00:22:19] Jesse Schwamb: God designed our psyche for singing, and we're probably, uh, I would say contractually obligated since Reformed is in the name of the title of the podcast- to remind ourselves and everybody else that one of the things the Reformation did was reclaim the singing of God's word by his own people. Yes. Taking it out of that performatory space back into literally the voice boxes of the people who are sitting in worship together. So sometimes we might have to do that again. You know, there is a little bit, I think, of... There, there is in some places, not everywhere, this kind of tilting of that time of worship through music to be vouchsafed or relegated to those who are, uh, let's say, like, the most, like, talented in doing that, and somehow we participate merely by observing or by- Yeah just, uh, you know, being an audience spectator of that, and that's totally backwards. So I get it. The thing is- We're all singers. We may not all be very good singers, but we're all created to be singers nonetheless. This is what the Bible tells us. So we need to lean into that. We need to invest in that. Yeah. And so I, I like, of course, what you're doing with, uh, your kids because you're not only teaching them to sing, and this makes me so happy, but you're teaching them to love singing to the Lord. Yeah. And so that is, I think, what a lot of our congregations miss, is sometimes we do it, and I'm among them often, but grudgingly. And so to get to a place where we come excited that our reasonable response, our reasonable preparation on the Lord's day is to sing together, to hear that gospel message in melody in the ear of our... You know, the voice of our neighbor in our own ear is a wild thing. It's just, like, un- unheard of. And it's like, uh, we gotta stop, right? It's one of those things also that, like- ... we've, we've talked about how it's just kind of otherworldly. Not, not only in the sense that it gives us this really kind of foundational sense of God's, you know, kind of transcendence, of what it means to participate in the worship of someone who is transcendent because it is all these voices together, but also this is something that rarely happens in any other way, especially in the Western culture anymore. This coming together to express and to participate in something where we're all reading literally from the same sheet music is just an entirely different experience, increasingly relegated to this kind of experience. So we, we must protect it, not only because God says that we ought to, but also because, again, it is, it is our reasonable response. Yeah. And it is something, like you've just said, that brings Him glory and is certainly for our good. So, uh, this is the Singcast, so everybody- ... everybody get to it. You can make your own music. God has commanded us to sing. So the sooner we just understand, like, hey, it's, it's... You know. Uh, but... And the last thing I'll say is this is one of those things that's, like, practice too. A- and I get it. Like, you may say, like, "Listen, I can only hit two notes, and that's all I'm gonna hit no matter what the music is." Well, then belt the two notes, and also know that, like, the more you practice that kind of thing, honestly, the better that you'll get and the more comfortable that you'll become. The voice is an instrument like any other instrument that takes, like, a little bit of practice and a little bit of work. But even that can cause, I think, great benefits and build a little bit of confidence. But just the example of singing and doing it from a heart that is keen to worship God and that is filled with passion to respond to Him with gratitude and, you know, adoration is really the key thing. And so I, I'd rather have a entire group full of worshipers that are singing off-key but, like, with just resounding passion than to have this performance of just a handful of voices because they feel like they're the most capable to do it. Yeah. I think we'd, we'd rather have everybody else, and to hear the congregation mixed as one of those instruments. So sing. Yeah.  [00:26:05] Everyone Can Sing [00:26:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and y- you and I have made the point in the past, too, like- I, I don't think, uh, maybe I'm wrong. Uh, we are a top 50 healthcare podcast, so maybe some doctor- I'm sure you're correct ... is gonna... Right. Like, I don't think being tone deaf is actually a physical condition. Like- Mm. I, I mean, I, I mean, obviously, like, some people have hearing problems, and that means they have trouble singing. I hear what you're saying. But, like, the people who are like, "Well, I j- I just can't sing. I'm just not capable of that," uh, like, I think the, the physical conditions that would make you incapable of singing are not usually what people are talking about. Like- Right. Yeah ... you know, some people have, like, vocal fold disorders or they have hearing problems, and I guess maybe, like, if perfect pitch is a thing, which it, it is. Like, perfect pitch is a... I don't know what causes it, but some people are born with perfect pitch. I suppose in theory that means some people must be born with, like, the opposite of perfect pitch. But I think most people who say, like, "Well, I just, I'm just tone deaf. I can't carry a tone," that, that's probably not true. Like, it just means you need practice. Um, and some people's voices, like physically, their bodies are more, more designed by God to produce a pleasant sound than other people. But I, I think actually just about anybody with a little bit of practice, and mostly I think this is probably just the confidence to actually sing and a little bit of practice to learn how your body works, like how your voice works, um, could probably get to a point where singing is not only very relatively comfortable and easy, but it's something that is pleasant and is not overly challenging. This is actually something that I think we've lost in the church. We should... This, I mean, this is about to come the episode, but, um- ... something we've lost in the church when we have sort of changed from a true genuine congregational singing model, which was the norm- And I've heard people make arguments about the importance of hymnals, and I, I agree with those arguments, although I know some people have moved them into almost like a realm of, like, divine mandate- Right that you have to use hymnals because it trains people to teach. But we have lost something with both the sort of commercialization of worship music and the pro- like making it a professional thing, and we've lost congregational singing. The, the people in the church throughout history have learned to sing. Many of them have learned to read, learned the scriptures, learned theology, not in the seminary and not in the monastery, but in the pew as they sing God's word and as they sing- Right ... the great theological hymns of, of the church. There's so much you can learn through that process that I just think we've lost. And I think going back to something like a hymnal or the Trinity Psalter Hymnal or whatever, whatever standard music your church is gonna use, and I mean standard music. Like, whether this is a collection of worship choruses that has been curated for the church or it's a published hymnal or something like that, going back to something like that teaches the church how to sing. And I don't remember who wrote it, but the trellis and the vine, like the worship that we sing, I know Mike Horton makes this point. The worship that we sing is the tre- is the trellis that the vine of our wor- of our- Yes ... faith grows on, right? That's true. Like, what the, what the church lex credendi, lex orandi. Like, the church, what the church prays, the church believes. What the church sings, the church believes. So all of that to say, like, the, the importance of congregational singing can't be under-emphasized, and it's... I, I mean, I don't know that I would I don't know that most theologists say technically s- like, congregational singing is an element of worship, but praising the Lord through song certainly is. Yes. It's, it's evidence. Um, and, and so I think that's definitely something that the church has lost in general. Um, and I know there are churches... I- it's funny, when Ashley and I were between churches, uh, very briefly after, um, our previous church closed down, um, we went to a local sort of, like, high, high, uh, production, seeker-sensitive church, very Steven Furtick-esque, and we only lasted, like, 10 minutes in this, in this service. We went in and the production value was great, and the music sounded great, but we couldn't hear ourselves, we couldn't sing- Right ... and it was very performative, and we just left. We were only there for a few minutes, and we left. And I think that's something we've lost as we've sort of migrated worship to almost, like, a professional class. So yeah, bring it back to the pews. Bring it back to your- Bring it back ... bring it back to your house, bring it back to your kid's bedroom when you're tucking them in. Everywhere. Bring it back to the car on the way to work, in the bus. Right. Like, just let's everywhere we go, let's sing and worship the Lord. [00:30:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right.  [00:30:31] Train Your Voice [00:30:31] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, so as a final thing, let me compound your hot take and say that I agree with you, that I... And I think professionals would as well, and I'm gonna stand on a resource that I'm gonna recommend to everybody here in a second, that in fact the Getty say, "If you can speak, you can sing." And there are a f- a few conditions that would prevent you from doing that, of course. And even there, they wanna explore opportunities for you, for instance, signing, for instance, to ensure that you can participate in worship. Uh, the hot take is I do think that because the instrument that God has given us in the vocal cords is exactly that, that it can be trained, and that actually most people can sing. And if you're serious about that, if you think, "You know what? I'd like to be able to do that. How can I explore that?" Here's a book for you. It's called Set Your Voice Free by Roger Love. The full title is How to Get the Singing or Speaking Voice You Want. Roger Love is, like, this amazing behind-the-scenes vocal coach. He has coached, like, a ton of really talented recording artists, and this is his very contention in the book, is that everybody can sing. It's really about how much or little work you wanna put into it. And in fact, this book comes with, like, these exercises that you can listen to and then record yourself. And then he, from a distance basically, can give you some pointers based on allowing you to kinda evaluate what you hear in your own recording back. So if you really are the kind of person that's like, "Listen, I, I dare you. I cannot sing," I would challenge you, I would double dog dare you to get this book, Set Your Voice Free, and if you're really serious about wanting to try and see if it can make a difference, I, I think it can. And I've, I myself have enjoyed this book, gone back to it many times, use it in my own work and practice because I found it to be helpful. So there you go. Sing, sing, and sing again.  [00:32:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:07] Singing Apps and Practice [00:32:07] Tony Arsenal: And if you're not a reader, first of all, why are you listening to the podcast? But second of all, if for some reason you're not a reader I'm, I'm joking. I'm sure there are people that are listening to the podcast who are not readers. That was, like, a super smug thing to say. How dare you. I'm sorry about that. How dare you. Um, if for some reason you don't wanna read that book or you're not a reader, um, y- you can do something as simple as looking up Yousician on your Yousician, Y-O-U- Yeah ... S-I, like the word musician, but U instead of, like, Y-O-U instead of, uh, musician. Um, there are plenty of apps out there. I just, I mention Yousician just because I've used that on, like, a free trial basis with some guitar teaching, and it's a reputable source. They also have a vocal module. So, like, if you wanna learn to sing, there are plenty of resources out there who can help you train your voice. A- and it- Again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a vocal coach, I'm not a professional singer. I'm not even that great of a singer, and I, I probably could be a better singer if I wanted to devote the time to it. Um, it doesn't take much to, to be able- Right ... to become a competent singer. Um, I think most of us, you pick up one s- just like I learned guitar, you pick one or two songs that you really like and you wanna learn, and you learn to sing those songs, and then those skills will develop over time. So enough about that, Jesse. We've got, speaking of talents- ... we've got some talents to talk about. There it is. Boom, bazinga. Baza-bazom. I'm  [00:33:27] Jesse Schwamb: back. There it is. Yeah, so- I was excited  [00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: about that one ...  [00:33:32] Jesse Schwamb: that, that was really good. And, and we should just h- honor everyone. That's it.  [00:33:37] Tony Arsenal: That's it. Tip your waiters and waitresses, folks. It  [00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: was so good. We're here all week.  [00:33:41] Parable Context Setup [00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So we're in Matthew 25, uh, verses 14 through 28, and this is at least gonna be a two-parter for us. This goes by the name you might be familiar of, which is The Parable of the Talents. But before we get to it, just a quick reminder that we've been speaking about this parable, not like in a special way, but hopefully in the more contextual sense. So this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25. So the first was The 10 Virgins, which we went through. We're in The Talents, and then we're coming up to everybody's favorite, The Sheep and the Goats. All three are part of this Olivet Discourse, which is, of course, Jesus' final teaching block before his Passion. And I think it h- behooves us so that we do not get distracted from, like, the center of gravity of this thing, that this is delivered in response to the disciples' question about the sign of his coming and the age to come. Because I've heard so many, like, little talks, maybe homilies is more the right word, on this particular parable that lack gravity. So little gravity that basically NASA could train their astronauts in it. So we wanna stay away from that and I think get into, like, the, the proper context. So Tony, do you have it in front of you by any chance? And would  [00:34:50] Tony Arsenal: you- I do. I do, yeah. Yeah. Read it for us? I'll read it here.  [00:34:52] Reading the Parable [00:34:52] Tony Arsenal: So this is, uh, starting in, uh, Matthew 25 verse 14, and I'm gonna read down through, uh, the end of verse 30 here. So it, it reads here, "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted them, entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time, the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents. Here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, "Master, you delivered to me two talents. Here I have made two talents more." His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master." He also who had received one talent came forward, saying, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours." But his master answered him, "You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming, I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him who gave it, who give it to him who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. For, uh, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness in that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."  [00:36:56] Watchfulness and Stewardship [00:36:56] Jesse Schwamb: So it starts with that amazing connective, which we really spoke about in the last episode, in verse four- 14, starting with four. So it's tying, like we said, this parable directly to verse 13, which we know is in the, the parable of the ten virgins. But it's this idea of watchfulness. "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." So th- I think this is the point we really drove last time, that we really felt highly convicted about, that this parable is not like a detached economic lesson, but it's really like an expedition, exposition, not expedition- ... of what watchful discipleship actually looks like during the interval of the master's absence. Like, that's the whole setup here. So it's starting with this idea of like the master goes away, but here we have these slaves or these servants who are entrusted. And to me, again, that's like such a linchpin in this whole thing, 'cause it's, it's carrying the sense that of course, like, he's handing over stewardship. It's a deposit held on another's behal- I love this parable because it has some banking language in it. It's, it's a deposit held on another's behalf, and that's like the key covenant concept of the entire thing. Ownership remains with the master. The servants are stewards. They're not proprietors. And that language, I think, really anticipates, like, the entire New Testament theology of stewardship, which is developed by Paul. So like when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, "This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful." So like all of that, that's like just one verse for me. Like, that's an incredible setup.  [00:38:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:38:28] Common Misreadings [00:38:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, I think it bears saying, too, um, I wanna be careful how I say this because I don't wanna impugn, uh, poor motives or anything like that on, on the, the people that I'm about to speak to. And I say this a little bit tongue in cheek, but also I say this as someone who used to be deeply involved in youth ministry. There's kind of like a, a youth ministry, um- international version of the Bible, I guess, if you wanna put it that way, where, like, there are certain, certain passages and parables that s- for some reason seem really prone to misapplication- Sure in, in some context. And I would say, like, youth ministry is the one I have in mind. Like, um, one of them is, like, in Matthew 18 where it's like, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them." Like, that's a, that's a statement about God's, God's presence in the judgment of the church and excommunicating an un- like, a, an unrepentant, uh, person who identifies with Christ. And, and ironically here, maybe not ironically, but, like, casting them into the outer darkness of excommunication, which is representative of casting them out into the actual inner darkness of damnation. Right. Like, th- there's a, there's a misapplication of that, that like, well, you know, like, if only a couple people came to youth group tonight, like, it's still worth meeting because where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst of them. Um, this, this parable has a very similar kind of misapplication that is maybe a, a little bit less of a misapplication. Like, I think there is something to say in this parable about the fact that God entrusts us with abilities, talents, treasure, t- our time. Like, He's entrusted us with resources, and He does expect us to use those resources, uh, in a way that is honoring to Him and beneficial for the, for the gospel and for the kingdom. Um, that's true in a broad sense, but I don't think actually that this is what that... But, like, that's not what this passage- Mm ... is teaching. Right. I think I, I kinda joked last time, but, like, I've heard more than one sermon that draws the parallel between the word talent here and our talents in terms of, like, our spiritual gifts or our ability to play guitar or, like, to bounce a basketball and, like, thr- like, throw a free throw. Like, that's not the kinda talent we're talking about here. So I wanna, I wanna sorta, like, point that out just to sort of exclude that from the conversation. Yes, God gifts His people, and He expects His people to use those gifts for His glory and for their own benefit. Um, but that's not what this parable is talking about. This is a parable about the fact that God has entrusted the kingdom of heaven on Earth to His people.  [00:41:08] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:41:08] Tony Arsenal: And He expects His people to make use of that in a way that expands the kingdom and also in a way that does not... And this is, this is, I actually think, the main point of the parable. In a way that properly understands the nature of the king. The, the punchline or the main point of the parable here, it, just to sort of, like, I don't know, give away the ending or, like, unbury the lead, I don't know, whatever that is. The point of this parable- It's not that, like, it's a really good thing to double what God has resourced you with. The point of the parable, the reason that, just like the, um, just like it wasn't the virgins falling asleep in the last parable that was the problem because everybody fell asleep, in this instance, uh, the amount of money or the amount of return on investment that the servants produce is not the point of the parable. That's not the real difference between them. The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the, the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was- Right ... and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable, and I think, this is the last thing I'll say before I, I, I take a breath here. There's a lot of people that would look at this parable and might read some sort of works righteousness or, um, and this is more understandable and I think has a place within the Reformed tradition, although I don't necessarily hold this view. But would look at this as sort of like a theology which would, would argue that we receive some sort of enhanced rewards in heaven based on our faithfulness. There's plenty of good, faithful Reformed Bible teachers that would hold that position. I actually think whether or not that's true, this is still also not what this passage is getting at. [00:43:00] Jesse Schwamb: I, I totally agree with you there.  [00:43:02] Talents as Huge Wealth [00:43:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think one of the reasons that we know that is because we can look at some of these details and let the details speak to us about the magnitude in their representation, why they're given. So of course, whenever the scripture gives us detail, especially in a context like a parable, it can be helpful of cour- of course not to overanalyze them, but to respect their place in the context of the story, and that's why verse 15 I think is so important. So to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability, then he went away. Now, this, this varies slightly, but there's a lot of, I think, very common historicity here that points us to understanding, like, the talents as a unit of monetary weight, and there is some discrepancy about its exact weight. But what we can say for sure is this: that we're talking about, as I teased at the beginning, a huge sum of money. So in other words, like, this is a gift from God himself. It's a divine gift. Yeah. It's something that's not earned. It's something that's given and something that's entrusted. So in the first-century Roman world, a talent was roughly equivalent to, like, 6,000 denarii, depending on who you talk to, which would mean that a single talent represented approximately, like, 20 years on average of a laborer's wages. So the sums then here we're talking about are staggering even at the lowest one. So the five-talent servant is receiving essentially approximately equivalent of a century's wages, and the one-talent servant is receiving 20 years' worth. There's no such thing as a small gift in Christ's economy, I think is the point here, and even the least endowment is immense beyond our reckoning. Yeah. So the distribution also is deliberately unequal. It's five, one, two, and the text doesn't offer any apology for this inequality. The master distributes to each according to his ability, which as I say that, I realize that could probably be its own episode, that we could talk about what that even means. Yeah. But he is matching and entrusting to capacity, and that's not arbitrary. Of course, that's wise and personal, and even the Greek here for this idea of capacity or power suggests the master knows his servants intimately and calibrates the stewardship accordingly. But nonetheless, it proves the point you're making here, which is not just about, like, well, do you have some kind of innate ability that's above average that God has endowed you with here? That's not even what we're talking about. Again, the whole point of this is to answer the question eschatologically about what the end means and when the time is coming and what good discipleship looks like. And so in that way, we understand then these talents to be these divinely appointed and massively generous gifts of God, essentially, like you said, the stewarding of the gospel in the story of salvation itself unto his people, and then to make something of that, so to speak, by the power of the Holy Spirit that earns a return for the kingdom, that is all empowered by God, that is under the volition of the person, uh, the Christian who says, "As a disciple, it is my responsibility to steward these gifts." That is really what we're after. So we do kind of get in this place where when you take this and say, "Well, what are you doing with," let's say- your home, if you have a nice home, are you being hospitable enough? If you have, let's say, a good singing voice by talent, are you using that to make sure that you're on the, quote-unquote, "praise and worship team," is not, like, entirely wrong, but it's not right either- Yeah to use this passage- Yeah ... for that purpose. There's a bigger theme here. There is, there's a much stronger and widescale framework that God is drawing us to and examine, and it's about the stewardship of the church itself.  [00:46:30] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  [00:46:31] The Foolish Servant Exposed [00:46:31] Tony Arsenal: That's really key, and this is what struck me as, as you were speaking about that, is like we see in so many of the kinda like, uh, like the chump in the parable. Like, there's- Yeah ... a lot of these parables have like a chump- Right ... where like you're looking at and you're like, nothing about what you've decided to do makes any sense. We're talking about people who've been given, in the first case, 100 years worth of, worth of wages. Right. Right? Any one of these people, and again, we're talking about a timeframe where, like, you could just take that money and run and, like, nobody's gonna find you. There's no digital trail on any of this, right? If I stole, if I stole 100 years worth of labor from my manager or from my, my employer, they would find me, right? That's not the situation we're talking about. So even the chump who decided, "I'm not gonna do anything with this," he could've just take- taken off with the money and had 20 years worth of labor. Right. Just 20 years worth of wages. Right. This is a, this is a sum of money that makes all f- all three of these servants unimaginably wealthy instantly, right? The point of this is, in part, that the final servant has no idea the amazing blessing and responsibility that he's been given. And again, I come back to this. It's not because he is dumb or because he is, um, somehow less competent in a strict sense, right? It, it's so funny to me, like, we also gloss over the fact that, like, the guy who has five talents, he's got 100 years worth of money, 100 years worth of wages. Right. And he just goes and gets 100 more. Like- Right he just goes and trades and- Right ... comes up with 100 years worth of wages that he brings back. Like, that's, in itself is, like, phenomenally, amazingly outrageous. We ran into this too with the, um, the parable of the unmerciful servant, right? We've, we've got one guy who's got this unimaginable debt, like, like, thousands of years worth of, uh, worth of wages that he could never make up, and he thinks he's gonna somehow come up with it if you just give him enough time. It's kind of like the opposite here. This guy's got this unimaginable amount of instant wealth, and he just buries it in the ground. First of all, how much... We're also talking about an era where money was a physical, entirely physical.  [00:48:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:48:53] Tony Arsenal: There were no, there were no digital banks. Like- No zeros and ones most of our money exists as ones and zeros in a computer program right now. Right. Like, in reality, like- Right ... my money doesn't exist. We don't have, like, a physical gold standard anymore in America. Jesse could probably s- I'm probably making dumb things up right now. No, that's that's- Like, it used- Right on to be that, like, every dollar that the United States government printed had, like, a piece of gold sitting at Fort Knox- Yes ... uh, like backing it up, but we just don't have that anymore. Most of the money that exists in our system is entirely imaginary. It's an entirely, like, made-up digital currency way before, like, Bitcoin was a thing. That's not the case in this timeframe. This dude who buried 20 years worth of money in the ground, that's a significant amount of labor in and of itself- Right ... to even be able to do that. So we're not talking about, like... And I think this is the thing we miss when we, when we read the word talents, and one, when we obscure it and we, like, we misappropriate the word talent to mean, like, abilities, 'cause it, that's a convenient, like, illustration tool. We're talking about a huge sum of probably gold or silver that this dude just buries in the ground, and then, like, digs it up when the master comes back.  [00:50:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:01] Tony Arsenal: And I think, like- When we don't realize how much money this is, we miss the force of the master's like, "You stupid, dumb, wicked, slothful servant." Like, if you had even taken this money to the bank and done the least imaginable- Yes ... effort. Exactly. Like, if you had done anything at all, like how mu- how difficult, granted more difficult back in this age than it is now, but like if you had even done something as simple requiring as little labor as possible and just brought this to the bank and let them collect interest on it, we'd still be talking about a huge return. [00:50:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:50:36] Tony Arsenal: And he doesn't even do that, and that's, that's the point. There's the people who do, and they gloss over this. The parable totally glosses over the amazing effort and work that it must have taken to take 100 years worth of la- of wages and turn it into 200 years worth of wages. Right. Or to take 40 years worth of wages and turn it into 80 years worth of wages. That's an amazing, probably almost miraculous return on, on investment. Whatever they did is amazing, and the parable's like, "Yeah, they did that." They just took it to the traders and they brought back five more talents. Like, it's nothing. And then this idiot, and I say idiot in like the most like, like exegetically sound, idios, like, like foolish idiot person. [00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:51:20] Tony Arsenal: This idiot just buries it in the ground and doesn't even bother to bring it to the bank where he's gonna get some return on it. This is the picture of the fool who does not make use of the means of salvation. This is the picture of the fool who refuses to receive Christ as savior, who refuses to make use of the benefit and blessing of salvation that is available to all who will trust in Christ and turn to him. This is the same picture as the idiot virgins who didn't buy enough oil and just fell asleep when they knew that the bridegroom was coming, right? Right. It's not that they fell asleep, it's that they didn't do the most obvious, simple, straightforward thing, is like your whole role, your whole purpose in this thing is to have oil. The whole reason you exist, and we didn't even get into this when we talked about that parable. The whole reason that these 10 virgins exist is to escort the bridegroom to where the bride is waiting. That's the whole purpose of the virgins. In the, the sort of Middle Eastern, early first century wedding sort of situation, the bridegroom would come, and some people say that like this is the tradition where bridesmaids come from. I don't know if that's true or not, but like the bridegroom would come and the virgins would escort him to the place where the virgin was waiting, the virgin bride was waiting to, to sort of, for him to claim his bride and take her, and then they would have the wedding feast. The, the, the bride, the foolish virgins, they didn't have the most basic thing they needed to accomplish the role they were in. This is the same person, the same foolish idiot is the one who goes, "I'm not even gonna invest this in the bank. I'm not even gonna bring it to the bank and deposit it," which is, like, the least effort possible. Right. Instead, I'm just gonna dig a hole. I'm gonna throw it in the hole, not because I'm dumb, not because I'm incapable, but because I think that the master is wicked and evil and selfish, and that he's going to try to gather some return. This is actually, and this just came to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is actually a picture of the person who wants to say that God doesn't deserve a return on his investment. 'Cause he's not saying, um, "I didn't know what to do." He's saying, "Actually, I did this because I know that you reap where you don't sow." Right. He's doing this to sort of stick it to the master who thinks that he deserves something that he doesn't. That's the whole point of this. This, this idiot servant doesn't even understand his role as a servant, and that's the key here  [00:53:44] Faithfulness Proportional Reward [00:53:44] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, the five-talent servant is set apart because he's marked by this immediacy. He goes at once or straight away. There's no delay, no prolonged deliberation, no waiting for perfect conditions, and as you already noted, he does trade, which is in the Greek like work, labored. It is remarkable of course because all of the... Well, the ones that provide a return, both of these two servants, they get 100% return, but of course like to get 100% is a lot more absolute return for the 100th century labor than it is- for the 20th century labor. But the verb does still nonetheless for each of them connotes this like active, energetic engagement. It's not passive holding. And so the result is five talents more, however he got them. Like you said, it's 100% return, and the parable doesn't explain how that was achieved because I think the mechanics of the investment are not the point, like you're saying. It's what matters is the disposition of active, engaged, risk-taking faithfulness. And so in verse 17, you see that the, the servant with the two talents receives the same condemnation. He's endowed with less, but he achieves the same proportional faithfulness, which is interesting, right? And so his condem- his condemnation in verse 23 is identical to the five-talent servant. It's word for word actually, I think. I was just looking at this. Yeah. And so it's a deliberate literary and theological point. God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. I do think that's important. And the two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received. So even that disproportionate allocation still comes back in a proportional reward, and that is the way in which God measures out these particular servants, who again, we're, we're talking essentially about the man going away as Christ himself. And so this, I think demolishes like this temptation to compare somebody else or yourself to more gifted Christians as either an excuse for laziness or as grounds for pride. I, I think the critical point here as time eludes us is that faithfulness as we're seeing it start to unfold in this parable is active. It's, it's not passive And so that aligns so well with what we understand the Reformed tradition to teach, which is that God calls every believer to productive labor in their sphere of life, and faithfulness in that calling is itself worship. But again, we're not just speaking about kind of the, the lower level sense of how are you explicitly using every moment or piece of your day, but more this understanding of the Gospel message itself, which is the greatest kind of vouchsafing. There's one other thing that springs to my mind that I just find interesting here. It's not a complete parallel, but I do find it very interesting, and that is this is a problem that's very common in the world, the situation that's been set up here. The problem in finance, we call it the principal-agent problem, and this exists everywhere. It's where the principal is the one that actually is the one that owns the resources, but the agent is the one that's responsible for using them productively for the benefit- Yeah of the principal. And it's a problem because it's possible the agent has their own motives, and therefore will not comport with what is for the best interest of the principal. So if you own a share of Apple stock, that's fantastic because you're seeking to grow your investment in that. But the problem is that unless the managers of Apple also own shares of the company as well, they might be wanting to act in their own self-aggrandizement, either to just use the company's resources to create really expensive offices for themselves or to make sure they get paid well or to, I don't know, make sure they all have golden toilets in their restrooms. Whatever brings- ... them satisfaction and joy, which may not be the very thing that you want because it doesn't bring you return. It's interesting here that God could go about this in a number of different ways. He does draw us missionally into this idea of the kingdom, and again, he's coming against those who have been charged with that mission, explicitly the Pharisees, to say, "You are part of this missional kingdom which I've set into place." Now, of course, where this metaphor breaks down is God himself doesn't truly have a principal-agent problem because in his providence he's over all of those things. Nonetheless, the situation and the relationship still stands here. I'm not gonna say, as some have said, like, this is, like, a true partnership, like God needs us to do these things or he, he needs to gently woo us into somehow performing as good agents for the benefit of him as the principal. It's not like that at all. And yet still we have here an example of the relationship going wrong in the very way it still goes wrong today in other realms, which is- Yeah ... the agent is a fool, and you do not want- ... a fool as your agent if you are a principal.  [00:58:19] Works Righteousness Clarified [00:58:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, I think, um, this is what I'll, I'll say as we, we close out here, because I wanna make sure As I mentioned, I think this parable, particularly the way that it's often taught, lends itself almost to sort of like a, like a really, like, crass works righteousness, right? [00:58:36] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  [00:58:36] Tony Arsenal: A- and maybe not in the sense of, like, salvation. Um, and again, there are plenty of, uh, Reformed, like, w- well-meaning and I think exegetically sound Reformed teachers who will argue for some sort of gradation of rewards in, in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't fully understand that argument, and I, I don't think that I'm there, and I don't know how I would get there. Um, but I, I understand... I shouldn't say I don't understand the argument. I don't necessarily, like, embrace that argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand how people get to that from the scriptures. Right. I think this, this passage is sometimes used to justify that. Like, oh yeah, the guy who had five talents and he br- five more, like, he's, he's put over 10 talents, and the, like, the idiot fool who doesn't... Like, they take the one talent, they give it to the f- There's this, like, theology of, like If you're faithful over... And again, like, this is just the Bible. Like, he who's faithful over little is, is given much. Like, that's, that's a biblical principle. Like, if you're faithful to obey God and to be productive for the kingdom, God is gonna entrust you with more responsibility and more, more, I don't know, domain I guess is the way I would say it. Like, yes, that's a true principle. If you're effective, God is going to continue to use you in more effective ways. I, I actually don't think that's at all the point of this parable.  [00:59:59] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed.  [00:59:59] Tony Arsenal: Because what, what I know is true is the five-talent servant is given the same commendation as the two-talent servant. And so I think a logical, um, not an inference, a necessary outcome, a logical entailment is that if the one servant, uh, one-talent servant had done as the others had and returned a 100% investment- Right ... he would've also been given the same, uh, commendation.  [01:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Absolutely. Right?  [01:00:29] Tony Arsenal: The commendation, which I, I would say, and, and we'll get into this more next week, but the commendation here, this well, "Well done, good and faithful servant," that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right? That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, um, well, are the, the most, absolutely the most amazing stellar person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, "I, I trust Jesus." Right. And they've produced no converts, they've produced no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. That, that R.C. Sproul or Billy Graham or Augustine, right? Or Martin Luther or John Calvin, we all hear the same... And maybe I'm, I'm rounding about here, like we all receive the same reward. The reward is well done, good and faithful, enter into the joy of your master. That's the point of this parable, is there are two servants who received that joy of their master. Regardless of the actual total value of their return, they were faithful. The one who does not receive the joy of his master is the wicked and slothful servant, the one who does not make any return because he does not understand his role as a servant and the master's nature as the good master who entrusts his people for a purpose. Instead he goes, "Well, this master is just trying to profit off my labor, and how dare he? How dare he do that? How dare he reap where he did not sow?" Totally missing the fact that the fact he has 20 years' worth of money to do anything with is the master sowing into him. Right. That's the whole point of this parable. So we'll come back to it again because- Like we've said, this is, this is part of a series of parables that are talking about the faithfulness of believers and how that ties into the eschatology and the nature of the church, and the nature of salvation and the eternal king- like, the everlasting kingdom. All this is wrapped into this. And actually, the punchline, and maybe punchline's not the right word. That seems flippant and feels wrong, but, like, the, the final explanation of these parables is not a parable at all. So we're gonna deviate a little bit from our parable series. We're gonna talk about a text in the coming weeks, probably not entirely next week, but we're gonna talk about the sheep and the goats, which is not a parable in the sorta, like, truest sense, but it's the way that Christ sort of puts the, the exclamation point on these parables- Mm-hmm as He explains what it actually looks like in the final judgment for the people who are faithful and for the people who are not. And that's the point of these parables, is to draw these distinctions between the faithful servants, the faithful wise virgins, and the foolish idiot virgins, and the foolish idiot servants. Notice everybody is still a servant. Whether you're a, a- Right ... an enemy of God or whether you're, you're a friend of God, you're still a servant of God. You're just a matter of whether you're a foolish servant who gains no reward because you misunderstood the master, or whether you're the wise and faithful servant who enters into the joy of the master. [01:04:01] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. So we'll come back to and begin next time with a little refresher on this one talent servant and the digging in the ground, and what's all that about, and we haven't even answered those critical questions like what are the talents exactly? Yes. And what does all this mean, and where are we going with this? We'll get there.  [01:04:19] Wrap Up and Community Links [01:04:19] Jesse Schwamb: But if you want to hang out a little bit more, speaking of being active, if you wanna get actively involved as opposed to just being passively involved, like listening to our voices- ... then you know where you can find us. You've heard it before, and I don't know why you're there already, but I'm gonna say it again. Go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood in any one of your favorite browsers, and that link will take you to the Telegram app, which is just a messaging place. We have a little corner of the internet where we like to hang out and also talk about the episode. So that's gonna be your place to join into the conversation and share your own thoughts. In addition, if you've ever wondered why all of this is free, why there is no, as I've coined it, at least, Jericho paywall that you have to strike down to find all of these episodes, the reason is because though there are costs to putting this out there, there are so many brothers and sisters that give just a little bit, either one time or consistently, to make sure it goes into your ears. We are grateful, and if you thought, "You know what? I would like to be a part of that because there's been a blessing here that God has given me," then I would say thank you, and you should go to reformedbrotherhood.com, and you can find all of the information there on how to give.  [01:05:27] Tony Arsenal: It's true. I was gonna make a joke about how, like, we expect you to give us a return on your investment by joining the Telegram chat. Now that I've thought a little bit more about that, that feels like maybe not the right joke to make. Little weird. So.  [01:05:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [01:05:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but we do want you to join us. We think it's a lot of fun. We do. We really enjoy it. We also do want you to share this episode with someone. So, um, we've, we've been humbled in the past, um, maybe humiliated in the past, humbled in the past to find that people have used our episodes as starting points for Sunday school classes or discussions with their family or as a way to introduce the gospel to a coworker. I've heard all of those stories. I know of at least one person who found their church and has become a member of their church, uh, because they listen to the podcast. So we, um, we're not delusional. We don't think we're some, like, amazing, miraculous force for God's kingdom. Of course not. But we do recognize that God uses, uh, this silly little podcast in His own ways for His own purposes, and we would love it if you would partner with us. So I just wanna echo that. If, if you are a person who hears this podcast and is benefiting by it and you think, "I would really like to support that," please go to patreon.com/reformedbrother and consider that. Um, because we, we couldn't do this show the way that we do it without the support of the people who listen to it. Um, so please check it out. Join the Telegram chat. We would love to see you.  [01:06:48] Final Sign Off [01:06:48] Tony Arsenal: And Jesse, I can't wait until next week. I mean, I, I, like, can we just- ... like, turn off the episode, start recording the next one? That's what's  [01:06:55] Jesse Schwamb: gonna happen probably. I'm sitting  [01:06:56] Tony Arsenal: on the edge of my bed, literally on the edge of my bed. My wife's gonna be like, "Can I go to sleep?" And be like, "No." No. "We need to record the next episode right now." Not yet. That's, that's not gonna happen. But, uh, Jesse, until next time, when it does happen, honor everyone.  [01:07:09] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood 

In this follow-up to their discussion of the Parable of the Ten Virgins, Jesse and Tony make a critical discovery about Matthew 25:13 that fundamentally changes how we should read Christ's eschatological parables. The command to "watch therefore" isn't primarily about staying awake—it's about preparedness for Christ's return. This episode explores the grammatical and theological connections between the Parable of the Ten Virgins and the Parable of the Talents, revealing how Matthew 25:13 functions as a hinge verse that binds these parables into a unified teaching on eschatological readiness. The hosts demonstrate how modern chapter divisions and translation choices can sometimes obscure the organic flow of Christ's teaching, and why understanding these connections matters for Christian living today. Key Takeaways Matthew 25:13 is a hinge verse, not an endpoint. The Greek grammatical structure (using post-positive connectors "therefore" and "for") links verses 1-13 forward to the Parable of the Talents, not just backward to the Ten Virgins. Sleep wasn't the problem in the parable. Both the wise and foolish virgins fell asleep. The issue was preparedness—having oil ready before the bridegroom's arrival, not staying physically awake. "Watch" means preparedness, not wakefulness. The better translation of the Greek word emphasizes alert readiness and preparation rather than literal sleeplessness. The Parable of the Talents explains what preparedness looks like. Christ intentionally connected these parables to show that watchfulness manifests in faithful stewardship and fruitful living. Christ himself made these connections. This isn't just Matthew's editorial arrangement—Jesus deliberately taught these parables together as a unified discourse on eschatological readiness. Sanctifying grace is non-transferable. The wise virgins couldn't share their oil because saving grace and the Spirit's indwelling cannot be borrowed or transferred between people. Eschatological ignorance is divinely ordained. Not knowing the day or hour prevents us from delaying obedience until the last moment, which was precisely the foolish virgins' error. Key Concepts The Grammatical Evidence for Connection The discovery that transformed this discussion centers on how Greek post-positive particles function. Both "therefore" (οὖν) in verse 13 and "for" (γάρ) in verse 14 cannot grammatically stand as the first word in a Greek sentence—they must connect to what precedes them. This means verse 13 isn't simply concluding the parable of the virgins; it's simultaneously introducing the parable of the talents. English translations that insert paragraph breaks between these verses may inadvertently suggest a harder separation than exists in the original text. When Christ says "watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour, for it will be like a man going on a journey," He's creating a seamless logical progression: the reason for watchfulness is eschatological uncertainty, and the nature of that watchfulness is illustrated by what follows in the talents parable. Preparedness vs. Wakefulness in Translation Some English translations render Matthew 25:13 as "stay awake" or "keep alert," emphasizing the sleep imagery from the preceding parable. However, this creates a logical problem: if falling asleep was the sin, then both groups of virgins sinned, since the text explicitly states "they all became drowsy and slept" (v. 5). The better understanding recognizes that the Greek word (γρηγορέω) encompasses a broader semantic range including vigilance, preparedness, and readiness—not just physical wakefulness. The wise virgins weren't praised for staying awake; they were praised for having secured oil before the bridegroom's arrival. This preparedness enabled them to respond appropriately when the moment came, regardless of whether they had been sleeping. Translating with an emphasis on sleep therefore misses Christ's point and artificially seals verse 13 off from the explanation that follows. The Perseverance of the Saints in Action This parable sequence reveals an often-overlooked dimension of the doctrine of perseverance: believers must actually do the persevering. While the Holy Spirit enables, empowers, and ordains our perseverance, He doesn't persevere instead of us—He causes us to persevere. The wise virgins' preparedness wasn't passive; they actively obtained oil before it was needed. They prepared for both the bridegroom's arrival and the potential delay. This illustrates that Christian preparedness isn't anxious vigilance or frantic last-minute effort, but the steady, Spirit-enabled work of sanctification, growing in grace, abiding in Christ, and maintaining readiness over the long haul. The Parable of the Talents then unpacks what this looks like practically: faithful stewardship, productive kingdom work, and diligent use of what God has entrusted to us during the time of waiting. Memorable Quotes The difference between foolishness and wisdom in the first parable is not whether or not the virgins fell asleep. It's whether or not they were prepared for the eventual coming of the bridegroom. - Tony Arsenal When God's people take to see and request his eminent and transcendent power in the lives of somebody else through intercessory prayer, a special bond is created that is very real. - Jesse Schwamb Christ himself has strung these different parables together... Christ was the one who decided that the parable of the talents was a proper explainer for the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 495 of the Reformed to Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:00:14] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:00:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So sometimes the episodes just seem to write themselves, and I say that of course, tongue in cheek from my full providential register. But in the last episode, we went over with great detail, the parable of the 10 virgins, or the 10 bridesmaids found in Matthew 25. And I think we did all the things that we were supposed to do, like contractually. We made really good oil puns. We talked about Petras song, midnight Oil. We talked about 10 bridesmaids, five Ys, five foolish. They're all waiting for the bridegroom who is late because he operates on divine timing. The foolish five run out of oil and begged the five whys to share theirs. The five whys decline, because sanctifying grace is non-transferrable. This is not a potluck. We went through all of that stuff and then what happened is we turned off the microphones and somehow you and I started a, a new conversation about this thing still. And we thought there's more to say and we didn't even expect it. And incidentally, it all hinges on a single word. Yeah. So we're gonna come back to that on this episode because we couldn't help ourselves. And I say that because we couldn't help ourselves. We literally kept talking about this long after the episode had ended. So we wanted to bring it back and it's something new. I think that you and I were really pondering that's gonna be really, really, really good. Yeah. But the other thing that's really good is either affirming with something or denying against something that's the part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is underrated, really exceptional, that we wanna recommend or we deny against something that's just not that great. So Tony, what have you got for us today?  [00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna phrase this in a very particular way, of course, and then I'll explain why I'm phrasing it that way. I'm starting. Great. Um, I am affirming adult baptism upon a profession of faith, and I say it in that particular way. Sure, of course. Um, because I often hear, and I've heard, I mean, I've heard Presbyterian pastors say this, um, I've heard, heard it said that Presbyterians do cradle baptism too. And, uh, and sort of like, sometimes it's kind of in like a, I'm trying to like build a bridge with a, a cradle Baptist. Sure. Um, I actually object to that because the, the basis on which an adult is baptized in a Westminster covenant theology framework is different than the basis, uh, on which a believer is baptized under a traditional Baptist credo, Baptist position. Right. So I'm affirming adult. Profession of faith, baptism or adult baptism upon a profession of faith. Um, and the reason I'm saying that is because my wife and I had this opportunity this morning to go to another church to visit, uh, a friend of ours. It's actually a friend of our son's, which is crazy to say. He's four years old. A friend of our son's from school, his mother, um, who is a Christian, um, but had never been baptized, was being baptized at her church today. And so we got an opportunity to go to their church. It's a church we've been to before. It was not like a brand new church or any, like, super far away. It's a church we've been to before. Um, so we got to go to church and then we went over to the local sort of like swimming hole. Uh, like there's this little, uh, like recreational area called stores pond, I'm sure. Just I know you're familiar with it. Oh,  [00:03:38] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.  [00:03:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, and they did sort of like a testimony ceremony and, uh, all of the baptizes, I don't know if that's the right word, but all of those being baptized. Uh, I would normally call them catechumens, but I don't think that actually that applies here. But all of those being baptized, uh, got up and gave their testimony. There was eight people being baptized, which was fun to see. Um, of course all adults. This is a Baptist, um, a Baptist church that we were visiting. And then we walked over to the, over to the lake and they dunked him in there. And, uh, it was really great to see. And the reason that I'm affirming adult baptism upon a profession of faith, um, uh, is because it's really quite beautiful, right? I think we've, we just recently talked about this, um, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again at some point in the future, but we just recently talked about a baby baptism at my church that, uh, is beautiful in its own right for its own reasons, and it's got its own theological, uh, underpinnings and theological elegance to it. But there's also something just very beautiful about an adult who either has come to faith, um, and I don't, I don't know, um, this woman very well, like I, she's another mom at, um, at Agie school. And so our kids go to school together and so we interact with her periodically at like drop off and other times and they've been over to the house. I don't know her, well, I heard enough of her testimony today to know that she was kind of a nominal Christian. Uh, and they actually started going to church because in order to bring their son to the school that, um, they wanted to go to, which is, uh, the school that my son goes to, the school that your father teaches at, um. You have to have at least one parent needs to be a Christian, needs to be a regular attender, a regular member of a church. And so they, they joined a church, um, to be able to fulfill that requirement. And either, and, and again, I wasn't, I was watching the kids, um, including her son while she was doing this. So I was only kind of hearing with one ear. So either she was a nominal Christian and was kind of like renewing her faith or she was coming to faith for the first time. I'm not sure. But in either case, she had not been baptized previously that I know of. I didn't, I mean, I guess maybe she was baptized as a baby or something, I don't know. But, um, she was being baptized today upon a sort of a new profession of faith or renewal of faith, and it's just very sweet to see. The emotional investment that occurs when someone is recognizing that God's promise is being sealed on them. Right. And I don't know that, I don't know that a lot of traditional Baptist, and this is a pretty like plain Jane Evangelical church. I'm not sure that a lot of evangelicals would really recognize or use that language. But I also think there's an intuitiveness to it that like this is a sign that God gives us. It's gotta be a sign of something. Right. Um, it's not, this was a church that brought sort of broadly Calvinistic part, the baptism of house was actually adopted or adapted from, uh, a modification of question, one of the Heidelberg catechism. So I warned my Presbyterian heart, um. So they're in a context where like covenantal language is not foreign to them, even if it's not the primary structure that they're using. But it was just very sweet and kind and a, a really encouraging, uh, opportunity for the body of Christ to gather. Uh, it was a little bit chilly. It was raining actually, and people, anybody, like everybody was out there and, and in the rain, most people didn't have umbrellas. And you know, people's hair is wet and their clothes are getting wet and nobody cares. Nobody is bothered by it because there is some baptism going on. There's some, uh, some new birth in a roundabout sense and some yes, uh, some, some signification of that new birth in a very direct sense. So that's what I'm affirming today. Adult baptism upon a profession of faith, uh, with an asterisk in a covenantal mode. That's, that's my very specific, very technical affirmation today.  [00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: There's also something about that's just special. Again, it's not prescriptive, but there's something special about those open water baptisms too. Oh  [00:07:27] Tony Arsenal: yeah.  [00:07:28] Jesse Schwamb: I mean,  [00:07:29] Tony Arsenal: yeah, it was like super picturesque. It was like, I felt like I was on the Jordan with Town of Baptist, like the, like, it was like a, that classic like Baptist minister standing in the water, like it was very right. Very, uh, it looked staged, but I don't think it was, I think it just was actually this, that genuine scenario. [00:07:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's like a beautiful thing. Like we're saying, oh, we're not trying to get into the particulars. It's just to appreciate, I think all of those details. I myself was baptized by my father in a pond and it was glorious. That was, that was special. And there was something about the occasion and the environment as well that was special to me in that. But you're right, like in that Baptist mode, I, I think when it's like properly administered, when it's really appreciated and the theology is rich and richly exemplified in what's happening there to, it's hard not to be moved, I think in the Christian heart, not to be warned by seeing somebody go down into the water to come up into this representation of new life in Christ. I think regardless of your convictions on this, it's hard not to be moved by the power of the spirits.  [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:08:26] Jesse Schwamb: And the sign and seal being delivered to God's people. In a profound way. So whether you're a Pado or Cradle Baptist, I think it really is difficult not to be moved. And especially in an environment like that, you love to see it, right? I mean, this idea of of, um, being able to come to the Lord because he's called you and whatever season of life that is, and then to follow an obedience into baptism is a glorious thing that we should all celebrate. So I love this idea of people on a chilly day in New Hampshire standing in the rain saying, give us the baptism. Like let, let us see the Holy Spirits working through the lives of the people in our midst. Let, we wanna be a part of that. We wanna celebrate that we're here for that.  [00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It was just a, it was just a very, very sweet, like, I, like I said with, when we were talking about the, the baby baptism at my church, it's, there's just a, there's a sweetness to it. It's, yes. It's almost like, um, I've never been present for the birth of someone's child other than my own. Um, I've been at the hospital, uh, so meeting the family and the, the baby like very shortly after birth, but I've never been actually there. But there's something reminiscent to that, whether it's a baby being baptized or an adult being baptized where it's, it's just this sort of sweet moment of introduction to yes, this person with, um. To varying degrees depending on the theology, underlying baptism. But this person with a very real new identity that they have been given, yes, it's, it's, the old has gone, the new has come new creation in Christ. Um, whether, you know, I, I don't affirm baptism or regeneration, right? That's not a reformed position. But whether you have a, a position of some form of baptismal regeneration or baptismal efficacy, which is where kind of the, the reform tradition tends to fall, or even just, uh, I say just, I don't mean just in a peor sense, but like, even if, if what's going on is, is entirely a symbol that you know, is being applied to a person, there is a new sense of identity. There's a, there's a, a mark, a, a physical mark that it isn't persistent like circumcision, but it's a physical mark being applied, a visible mark being applied to, to the person claiming them as God's child. Um, and, and there's something very sweet and genuine. And, and to see, like, just to see, like I said, the, just the emotionality. And not a crass like emotionalism, but a genuine, heartfelt, emotional moment that someone is going through like a real, genuine emotion, um, is also not something we actually see that much in the world anymore, which is, it was nice to see. Anyway, I could, I could blather on about baptism and, and adult baptism and baby baptism and how great it is. Uh, God knew what he was doing and he, he gave us this beautiful symbol. So next time you have an opportunity to experience a adult baptism upon a profession of faith in a covenantal mode, uh, than you make sure you take advantage of that.  [00:11:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You know what it's like for me and certainly I, baptism is way more profound, uh, than this example I'm about to give. But there's something within me that feels similarly or appreciates in a similar way when you're participating or just viewing a wedding. Yeah. Isn't there? There's that new identity. There's the vows and the covenants being made and promises being given and that that's just like a really meaningful, profound thing. And then like, you know, a thousand times, a million times, that is to participate or to witness again, baptism. And in my own church, which is Cradle Baptist, the one I attend, baptism, I'll say it this way in like this most trite way again, is like a super big deal. And one of the things I really appreciate is when that person, after they've given their testimony and they've gone down into the water and they come back up, our congregation goes like wild. Like just wild in celebration. Yeah. And at first I was like, wow, this. This seems like too much. Guys, can we take, can we take it down now? Just the Lord's day after all. And then I was with you in the sense of like, really, it's like we, you and I have talked so much about like the, the way in which you're trying to sometimes manufacture or theologians try to bring in some sense of emotionalism to kind of convey some kind of like, really, so I can demonstrate that I have a heartfelt and genuine commitment and love for God and Christ and you know, we can leave that as it is right now. Here is a place where I think that celebration is like just wholly and totally appropriate.  [00:12:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: And so I love that there's genuine enthusiasm and excitement over those things. And you're genuinely gonna get that more in the kind of traditional Baptist mode of this thing. I'm just saying celebrate where you celebrate, you know, get in where you fit in. Yeah. And so I think that your admonishment to us and affirmation there is really good. Um, totally about that. And all the better if you can do it in a, on a rainy day in a pond in New Hampshire. That sounds like a glorious spot.  [00:13:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it was interesting. It was good. It was a good time. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight? [00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also gonna go affirmation, and I think we can file this one for me, under seeing the power of God in his, that power demonstrated in his transcendence and in his eminence. All our timing is gonna be off on this, but there's a certain compulsion I have to report back to everybody. And that reporting is really on my wife who did undergo some surgery this week. And I'm about to say a bunch of things medically so you can, I mean, there's nothing in here like grotesque, but I say that because somebody might be like, wow, you're seeing a lot of personal things. I have her permission to share all this. But of course some of you may remember, she spoke on the podcast, I dunno, like a half dozen episodes ago. Go back and listen to that. She talks about her medical journey, but she just had this big surgery. And here's the reason why I want to report back. I sense that when God's people take to see and request his eminent and transcendent power in the lives of somebody else through intercessory prayer, that like a special bond is created that is very real. So I think when somebody comes to their brothers and sisters and says. Would you pray for us? Would you pray for me? That's not just an act. I think of vulnerability. It's one of of truly seeking after what God desires for his people to help and to intercede for one another. And there's something special about that. And then equally special, and I think binding is when people say, yes, I will pray. And they make themselves committed to doing that. When that relationship is established, what I think is like mutual accountability, mutual yielding to one another, mutual submission. The lovely thing about that is I think there ought to be a reporting back. I really feel highly convicted about that because so many people, including those in the from Brotherhood hanging out in the Telegram, TT Me Reform Brotherhood, they have prayed for us. My church has prayed, my parents have prayed. You have prayed. So many people have prayed. And so my wife did go undergo an 11 hour surgery just two days ago. And uh, I can say that that surgery, the doctors, the three surgeons who are working as part of this interdisciplinary team, this multifactorial, multidisciplinary team, were able to accomplish everything that they wanted to do, which was a wild accomplishment. And it was more intense than they thought it was going to be. But I can say to you very, very clearly, very cogently that, uh, God was in the midst of all of these things in a mighty and powerful way. Now, I know people are prone to say that kind of thing. I'm saying it because it was all exceptionally real. Not only as I sat there waiting for the next updates in the waiting room, did I really sense a peace of God that I haven't felt before, even in all of my wife's previous surgeries, when this was the most uncertain, this was the biggest, the highest risk that was all real. But at the very end, and I'll, I'll spare a lot of the details, uh, but at the very, very end when the surgeon reported back to me all the things that they did, which included having to take out a portion of her bowel and stitch it back together again, because she had some endometriosis that had embedded itself in there and that was unknown to them. You can't see that stuff in an MRI and yet God ordained that the right surgeon, the right preparation would be in the room and ready to go if something like that occurred and it did. That she had a full hysterectomy, which we were praying that it would be lack laparoscopic because they were concerned they would not be able to do it that way. And God answered that prayer that she needed to have her ureter, the thing that connects your kidney to your bladder, that also was filled with endometriosis. It had to be resectioned and repaired. And it was that the end of all of this, what the main doctor kept saying to me was, we wanted to put your wife in a position where her anatomy would determine the outcome and that you would have all of the skilled persons in the room to provide the best care, the best expertise possible. And what he said to me at the end is, it's strange things just kept breaking her way. And I said, well, I can tell you why that is. That's because God was answering the prayers of so many people who are praying for her. And so I'm so thankful for everybody who's prayed. She's in a critical time of healing right now. Our prayers now are turning to just that God would solidify the work that he has already accomplished, that there'd be no complications, that all the things that they did, and they did a lot of things. The surgeon in fact said to me at the end, it's gonna feel like she got hit by a truck. And that's actually not a bad description of what we did to her. And so the next days are the ones where we're really pleading for God to do this kind of miraculous healing that he started by providing all the things that he's, he's already done. I, as a husband, cannot be more thankful, more grateful, without words for everybody who has prayed. Uh, for my parents, for you guys, Tony, for all of our friends who reached out for so many people, I've realized I have a part-time job now just answering text messages, uh, on behalf of my wife for those who desperately are loving her through prayer. And again, I think I'd affirmed before. I'll say this very quickly, about the elders praying over her. About what a sweet time that was. Not only did that happen, but uh, unbeknownst to me until a little bit later on in that day did I learn that a bunch of women in the church had taken it upon themselves to schedule an 11 hour block where there was gonna be somebody praying every hour for my wife. And, um. Man, if, if, if this is not what the family of God does for one another, I don't know what they do.  [00:18:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:18:35] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm so grateful. Thank you for everybody who has prayed. I also don't want to testify. That's the power of God and his eminence. And his transcendence is just unreal loved ones. It's unreal, it's otherworldly and he comes in power when his people pray. He does good work and it's very James one. There's a lot that even as I'm worried now about the outcome of this surgery and how it will play out, that I can still somehow truly count it all joy, because it is God who does these things in our lives to test and to prove out our faith and our love towards him, because he's in fact good. And I'm just testifying to that goodness in the midst of this difficulty. So wherever you are at. For whatever it's worth. And I think it's worth a lot. God is faithful. He will do the work that he began, and he will meet us when we need him, where we are at in his loving kindness because of his great mercy. So be encouraged by that. And again, my sincere gratitude.  [00:19:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't have much that I can add to that. I mean, I, I, I think, um, prayer is an undervalued commodity in the church.  [00:19:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:19:49] Tony Arsenal: And. As good and right as it is for us, uh, to pray when there's some big, um, big need like this. Um, and, and there's no, there's no, uh, dishonor or shame in asking for prayer in the big situations. I think sometimes too, like we forget that prayer is just as vital and just as important and just as powerful and just as meaningful and just as everything in the small things. Amen. Um, and, and I also think, you know, sometimes we, maybe this is just me, but like sometimes we go into, we go into a, a scenario like what you and your wife are going in and we sort of like prepare ourselves for. The hard providence to come. Like, I don't know if, if that's where you've been at, but I know when I'm facing things like this, um, I'm, I'm kind of like asking people to pray, expecting God to bring the hard providence.  [00:20:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:20:44] Tony Arsenal: Um, and maybe that's just a coping mechanism to sort of like get out in front of it in case he does. Um, but like that God, God doesn't, uh, how do I wanna say this? I don't think that God takes any particular joy in bringing the par, the hard providences. Mm-hmm. And I actually think he does take a particular joy in answering the prayers of his people unto good effect. Um, I think there's a particular joy that God brings when he, God has in his own divine accommodated, anthropo, pathic way, um, when he can make sure that everything just breaks the right way for his children. Right. In a really difficult, complex, long surgery. Um, and all of the butterfly effect elements of, of how all of those different things are gonna, you know, spread out. Right. I don't know if this surgeon's gonna come to faith because you attributed his success in this surgery to, you know, to, to God. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Um, but, but either way, there are a thousand, a million imperceptible little ways that God's providence flows out of these kinds of situations that we will never know. Um, and he, he takes great joy in answering the prayers of his people and. Yes, it's true that when God, when we ask God for bread, he does not give us a stone even when he gives us the hard providences, right? The hard providences are not a stone, but he likes to give us really good bread.  [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Amen.  [00:22:10] Tony Arsenal: And I think at times, um, we, we sort of almost doubt that he is able and willing and joyful to do so. So that's more, I think, more a reminder for me than it is for anyone else. 'cause I, I have a tendency to prep myself for the hard providences, um, before they come and, and pray to that effect that God would comfort me in the midst of whatever trials is coming. Um, maybe I need to show a little bit more faith in a good God who gives good gifts, um, to pray and thank him in advance for the good providence is the, the easier the soft providence is that he has in store for his people as well.  [00:22:46] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I think we all need that reminder from time to time and I, again, I like where you've taken that. It is a good reminder to pray for the people that you love around you all the time, or just ask. What's something that you would like some prayer for, especially maybe something that you can't pray for yourselves through this time? I can't tell you how many times somebody has asked to pray with me or for me, and they pray in ways that just astound me. I dunno if that makes sense. Yeah. Like just, I get off the phone and I think, well, that was spirit filled because I didn't know that I needed to hear those words. I didn't know exactly like what needed to be stitched together in terms of the requests that would really minister to my heart and provide me encouragement. But course the Lord knows, and even in prayer as you're saying, he's giving that good gift to each other.  [00:23:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: When we pray with one another, when we pray for one another, it's just a remarkable thing that I fail to understand and I definitely fail to appreciate. So in this season of being able to see it very clearly as if like the clouds. Parted and I could see some of this power of prayer and what God does in prayer, what God does to us in the prayer of others. I can't help but testify again. I feel it is my duty to do so, actually. So be encouraged, loved ones that this is a powerful weapon that God gives us. I think you and I have said before, Tony, maybe we can also partly this into like another reform. A brotherhood bumper sticker. I said another, like, we have bumper stickers. We don't, we definitely should. At some point  [00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: we do have at least one cross stitch pillow floating around out there  [00:24:20] Jesse Schwamb: somewhere. That's true. Yes. We need to get our hands on that. And maybe here's something else we could add to it, which is of course, when, when we work, we work, but when we pray, God works. And so I've just been reminded of that over and over and over again. The situation, like you said in the big times and the small times, what a blessing, what God is like this, who cares. Who again, is what I've been thinking about is how high and lifted and transcendent God is, so that like he's not moved in, uh, in a dis, like a passionate way by this nonsense of our world. He's steady and steadfast. You know, Isaiah 26, like our God is an everlasting rock, and yet he's eminent in sending his son to identify with the kind of pain even my wife is in right now. In her time of trial and struggle. He is there and yet separated and so powerful that he orchestrates all the details himself. I mean, what God is like this.  [00:25:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: So this is the one to whom we get to bend his ear, as it were, and we'll avail ourselves of that opportunity. Always. You're gonna have to stop it, Tony. Otherwise, I'm, this whole episode is just gonna be me talking about, which would not be bad, I suppose, but me talking about how good our God is, I suppose we can talk about that actually in the context of Matthew 25. [00:25:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. You better watch yourself before you wreck yourself. Is that how it goes? But I did that, that took a month off of podcasting. I forgot how to do transitions. Not that we were ever great at transitions. It's just slamming into gear  [00:25:43] Jesse Schwamb: now. That loved one's a segue that you, you don't even know about yet. You didn't even get it. So let me help you try to get it. 'cause I, I wanna do this quickly, but of course it's always the best part of our conversations where we can get to the scripture. Let me read just the first, uh, 13 verses Matthew 25, and I'm gonna read them from the version that I read on the last episode because part of the fun of this conversation that Tony I had had subsequently was, do you remember what you said to me, Tony, about, about the, this, I don't wanna say the word yet, but this word. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, what I remember is, um, feeling confused because I, I said, I thought this was like a Mandela effect kind of thing. Yes. We might have to, I'll explain briefly what that is in that I could have swore this word was in the, in the Bible. Like I was, it was so ingrained in my head that this was there. And then I'm trying to find it in my, my version that I'm bringing in. It's not there. And the obvious answer is it actually was there in the version that Jesse was reading and is there in many translations. Um, so we'll, we'll read the translation, uh, Jesse read, and then we'll talk about why not only why this is, uh, important in the light of our last conversation, but actually how it's important in light of what will likely now be the beginning of our conversation on the next parable, and in the next week or maybe two of, of the discussion of the parable of the talents here, or one of the parable and talents. [00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: So this is Matthew 25, beginning in verse one. Then the kingdom of heaven may be compared to 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the body groom. Now five of them were foolish and five are prudent. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now, while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout. Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him. Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the prudent, give us some of your oil for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered saying, no, there will not be enough for us. And you go to and instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves. And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. And later the other virgins also came saying, Lord, Lord, open for us. But he answered and said, truly, I say to you, I do not know you. Therefore, stay awake for you. Do not know the day nor the hour.  [00:28:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So the part of this, uh, passage that I was having, like a brain cramp on and couldn't figure out is actually verse 13 and, um. The reason this is important and ties in, and this is part of why Jesse and I after we sort of had like a second, the beginning of a second episode, following the last episode, um, wanted to come back, is that this, this verse in verse 13 actually makes, um, in effect it makes the second parable that we're gonna talk about the parable of the talent here. It actually makes that parable like an extension of the first one or maybe an explanation of the first one, or further clarification. I'm not sure. It, it links the two together in a way that's really significant. So we need to make sure we really understand. Verse 13, and I'm gonna read verse 13 in my translation to demonstrate kind of where I think the, the question starts and says, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. And what Jesse and I kind of like marveled at is, um, the word for watch, uh, it's actually the same word we get the name Gregory, for, uh, from, um, the, the idea of being wakeful or alert or not falling asleep. That's that's there in the word. Um, and, and I don't think it's a bad translation. I don't. I always, um, wanna be really hesitant to sort of like make an argument that you wanna like build an entire theological point on a translation or a mistranslation. I think those are really shaky arguments, and even more than that, I don't ever wanna make an argument that makes it so people feel like they can't trust their English bibles. So the, the difference between the version that Jesse read with, you know, statements of being awake or stay awake or be alert versus watch, or more generalized alertness language, which is I think probably a better, not, not that the other one's bad, but this is probably a better translation. And it's a translation decision that's trying to connect that verb back to something that was said about the virgins. Right, right. The, the virgins, um, and this is, this is where our conversation went, is actually the, the sort of like real time epiphany that Jesse and I had, maybe I just had Jesse new, the, the sort of like real time epiphany that both, both groups of virgins fell asleep. Right. And so being asleep is not the necessary, it's not the thing that makes the virgins foolish.  [00:30:35] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:30:36] Tony Arsenal: The, the translation, I think, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, not like a mind reader and I haven't read anything from the translation committees that explain that this is why they did it. But I'm, I'm, I think it's reasonable to think they translated in light of that wakefulness element of being alert because of the fact that the virgins fell asleep and they were sort of caught off guard when the bridegroom came. But the reason I think that's an over translation is exactly the dynamic we pointed out last week, falling asleep was not the problem,  [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:31:05] Tony Arsenal: What was, what was the problem was not being prepared. And so this concept of watch, therefore is more, I think is more about preparedness because of the fact that the parable is about preparedness, not about wakefulness. So when we wanna think about translations, yes, verse 13 comes after verses one through 12, but there's this little word therefore that connects this one with the next one, right? And so it's watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. If that was the end of, end of the book of Matthew, right, right there, then that therefore would be like, because of what I just said, watch for, you neither know the day nor the hour, you know, neither the day nor the hour. But then in verse 14, it starts with four. It will be like a man going on a journey who called his servant and entrusted them through his property. That word for, that's another connecting logic word. So it's watch therefore, so like, because of what I just said, be alert, watch, be wakeful, be mindful, be prepared for, you know, neither the day or the hour. Four, because it will be like a man going on a journey, right? The reason you have to watch is partially, or the reason you have to watch is that you will neither know the day nor the hour. And the reason you will neither know the day nor the hour is because it will be like a man who's going on a journey called his servants and entrusted them to his property, right? So these two parables are connected and we have to sort of like understand what that watch word means and how it relates to the previous parable to understand now what it is that the next parable is trying to say and how the two relate to each other.  [00:32:45] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right. It's like you said before, we talked about last time, it's not that sleep was the problem. That's not where the condemn nation comes in. It's merely that sleep revealed the lack of preparedness. Right. Like I suppose if you wanted to change it up, you could be like, and then they all played Uno for a while and the lambs were going strong and then suddenly the bride coon came out and it was like, okay, well it was the fact that all the lamps were still burning. Yeah. But as they were still burning and that time was passing and the bridegroom delayed, providentially, then it was only those imbued with that grace who already I prepared for that moment in time. Not that they were all playing Uno itself. So, which, which I know this is like my own translation, which is horrible, but. It is important if somebody thinks like we're overworking this.  [00:33:26] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:33:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's important, I think, because it, it's gonna set up the next stuff, which we're gonna get to, uh, I presume in the next episode. But this verse is, is like a, is like kind of like the keystone. It's, it constitutes like the entire moral conclusion of both this parable, but the other two that are just like it, that come before it in different ways. And of course it's like structurally parallel to a bunch of like mark and stuff that we may or may not get to. And then it echoes like the broader, all that discourse as well. So I was just looking up quickly, mark 13, in other words like where do we hear this same type of language? Where does it almost rhyme in our minds? And so if you go over just to mark 1333, and this is the parable of the fig tree. So we won't get into that there, but you'll see kind of like the same conclusion, the same, I kind of high and lifted point at the end. And this is where Jesus says, see to it, keep on the alert. For you do not know when the appointed time will come. So instead, really what we're getting at is there's all this language about watchfulness, like the, the present imperative in Greek. Keep on watching, be continuously a work, uh, alert, but it's not like watchfulness in this like anxious, vigilant, kind of nervous energy uncertainty, but it's the prepared readiness of one who has oil in the vessel and knows that the bridegroom is coming regardless of whether you fall asleep. [00:34:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, the, the way that, um, the way that English translations are broken up into paragraphs and into, with headings and editorial content and chapter divisions and verse divisions, um, those things are all helpful and they're all really useful and I'm glad they're there. Uh, they're not inspired though, right? They're not the word of God. The, the, for the little, the little super script 14 before the word four and the little super script 13 before the word watch. Is not, it's not inspired and neither is the little, at least in the version I'm looking at on logs Bible start, neither is the little paragraph break that separates these two. So we, we can equally read and again, like I haven't done a full Greek exo treatment of this and maybe I should to, to know whether there is actually some real specific grammatical reasons why we would break these. There probably is, but we could equally read it saying, but he answered truly I say to you, I do not know you watch therefore for, you know, neither the hour or the day nor the hour. For it will be like a man going on a journey who called his sermon or we could read it, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour for it will be like a man going on a journey. Right, right. We can, we can, the way that we read it, we can, we can clump verse 13 with what comes before it and sort of imply a full break or we can clump it with what comes after it and imply a full break before it. In reality, we shouldn't do either of those. Right. This is in, this is linked together in the, the Bible specifically to take these two parables. And pull them together. Right. Thematically, they're the same. They match, they, they have kind of this rhyming nature that like, there's, there's this theme of like, these people who have a specific task and they accomplish it to greater or lesser degree. And the ones who do it, right, the ones who do it well are rewarded in some sense because of their preparedness and their diligence. And again, I, I don't, um, I know that we can't overemphasize this because this is God's word, right? Right. The, the difference between foolishness and wisdom in the first parable is not whether or not the virgins fell asleep. It's, it's whether or not they were prepared for the eventual coming of the bridegroom, meaning that they had everything they need, not only to, um, and this is a, a real time realization I'm having here, not only to be ready when the bridegroom came, but to be prepared for the long haul until he came. Right. I think that's actually probably another big part of this pearl that we didn't even really talk about is that there's a, there's a, um. There's an implied statement here about the, the, um, perseverance of the saints in the fact that the saints have to persevere. Right? That's a corollary of the doctrine, of the perseverance of the saints, is that we actually have to do the persevering, right? Empowered by the spirit. Enabled by the spirit. Ordained by the spirit, of course, but that doesn't mean the spirit is the one who's persevering, right? Right. The spirit is not persevering for us. The spirit is causing us to persevere, but it's still us that he's causing to persevere. That's a major part of that. This next parable and, and we'll read, we'll read the parable here and then we'll get into some of the beginning part. I think this next parable here is really about like what does that perseverance look like? What does that diligence until the master comes, looks like. It's kind of like taking this, this period of time where the bride groom is delaying and the virgins all are becoming drowsy and sleeping. Well, what does that actually look like? What does it look like for the virgins who have gotten the oil ahead of time versus the virgins who waited and then had to go buy it? Well, the parable of the talents in this next passage shows us what it means to be prepared. And part of what it means to be prepared is to be diligently working to advance the kingdom of God diligently working to pursue and excel in righteousness, insofar as it depends on us, and insofar as we're empowered by the Holy Spirit. So these two, these two parables are linked together and um. Maybe we're falling into this trap a little bit, although I think because of the way we're kind of doing these, these passages in sort of organic fashion, rather than really insisting on sort of hermetically sealing off each parable, we have a tendency, I think to say like, this parable is this right? This parable is that. And we don't really ever talk about them unless you're in like a parables of Christ Seminary class or like you're reading a book on the parables of Christ. Um, if you're just sort of looking at popular teaching on parables or you're. Like a sermon series through the parables. I don't think you're gonna run into a lot that's gonna show these connections and relationships between the parables in the way that I think we're, I'm stumbling upon is maybe not right. But that's what it feels like. We're sort of like discovering in real time together that these parables are so organically linked to each other that we really can't seal them off from each other or we do some violence to the text.  [00:39:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. Yeah. And speaking of that whole life, whole preparedness, whole watchfulness, John Owen writes, in the mortification of sin, the whole of Christian living may be described as a preparation for eternity, mortifying sin, growing in grace, abiding in Christ, waiting for his appearing, which really strikes me as maybe a summary of like an umbrella of all of these parables of ones that we've just seen most recently and the ones that we're about to go into because. The ground for the watchfulness here is that like legitimate eschatological ignorance. This is like a deliberate, divinely ordained uncertainty. So of course, like knowing the precise moment would just tempt the flesh to delay until the last possible moment, which is precisely the error of the foolish virgins who assume that there was enough time to obtain the oil after that midnight cry. So all of this is happening right now. Like I, I do think this verse is just so critical now. It's like really a weird linchpin. It is like the capstone in a strange way of like the three parable sequence in the olive discourse, which we already talked about, the 10 virgins, the talents, and the sheep and the goats. Because it strikes me as you were speaking, Tony, what was coming to my mind is like each is almost escalating from, as it were, like a watchfulness to like a fruitfulness, to like a final judgment. And each of those are kind of building on each other. In other words, like there is a logical consistency and chronology to those things that Christ is leading us through. And the verse therefore doesn't stand alone. It's like this hinge between the eschatological warning of the virgin narrative and the productive stewardship demanded in the parable of the talents. And I think unless you see that here, it's like saying, listen, the watchful person does this. You know, why should you be watchful because of this example I've just given to you. So within that Oliver discourse, there's the exhortation to watchfulness, which occurs with that striking force. Stay awake, be ready, watch. And of course, I think we're just joining in all the reform exe and the pros who had this instinct of reading those with a unity. Yeah. The whole discourse is like the L, the Lord's own like pastoral Herman Hermeneutic, I guess on like Daniel nine or whatever. So like it is important, and I think it is maybe a bridge that, at least in my mind, I often didn't build or didn't seem necessarily because you're like, well this, this ends one. And the warning is to be watchful. And now here's something else. That's something interesting you should consider. Yeah. But really this is all one and the same, all, all. Maybe one like well like parable to rule all parables, like it's a single parable told in many sequential pieces.  [00:42:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Which is something we saw before, right? Yes. And maybe, maybe not to belabor the point and, and again taking, take this in the context of me saying I never want to try to make an argument that you must be able to read Greek in order to profit from the scriptures. [00:42:20] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  [00:42:20] Tony Arsenal: All of that said, it's very helpful to understand a little bit about how Greek works, even if you don't actually learn Greek. So for example, and here's, I promise you that this is not just me being nerdy about Greek. I'm looking at the ESV and verse 13 says, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. Right? So the, the command comes, uh, before the logical connector that sort of like, is explaining why, right? Because of, because of something. Right? When it's the thing that comes before, maybe it's the thing that comes after, usually it's probably before, but because of this thing, watch therefore for, you know, neither they or the hour, right? And then in verse 14 it says four. It will be like a man going on a journey. This is where I think understanding how Greek works a little bit is important. Both the word therefore and the word for. In Greek, which it's, it's therefore it's un OUN or omega upsilon new un and gar for four. Both of those are what's called post positive, and what that means is that it cannot be the first word in a sentence. So, um, verse 13 is translated very word order, literal watch. Therefore that ma matches the Greek very closely. Verse 14 is not right, right. Verse 14, if you translated it very literally would be like, uh, let's see. Would be. Just as for a man, and I get like, you can hear there, right there, why we don't translate it that way is 'cause it's really awkward, but it's just as for a man, uh, a man went on a journey or a man, um, going on a journey who called his servants. Right. The, the point of what I'm trying to say here though is that that subtle variation in the verb, the command coming first versus this post positive, logical connector coming first, that that sort of like gears your brain towards a certain conclusion. Right? Right. Watch, therefore we, we have a tendency to think like watch connects to the previous one. Right? This verb must connect us to the previous one, where the next one we see four being the beginning of a word, beginning of a sentence. We feel like that's the beginning of a new thought, right? This logical connector at the be very beginning of a sentence is like starting a new thought. The problem with that is, one, it doesn't actually match the Greek word order in both cases. Neither of these is the first word of the sentence, but let's just think of it in as a post positive and say that it should have been the first word of the sentence, but the Greek grammar won't allow it to be.  [00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:01] Tony Arsenal: That connector in both cases is linking us to the previous sentence, and that means both of these sentences are linking us to the previous sentence, meaning both segments of thought are linked to other together. Verse 14 is linked to verse 13, and verse 13 is linked to verse 12. There's no good grammatical reason that I can see with the 30 seconds of looking at it and the five semesters of Greek, right? Keep that in mind. I'm not an expert, but there's no good reason I see immediately from the Greek text, right? There are certain phrases and indicators in Greek that tell you like, this is a new segment of thought. I don't see those here. What I see is a very strong, strong, logical sequence of connection between 13 and 14, right? Therefore, watch for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. Well. Going back to our discussion about translating that in terms of sort of general watchfulness or preparedness or translating it in light of sleep. These are the things that are important for us to think about when we're reading English translations. 'cause this keys us off to what the, what the translators thought in terms of what belongs with what translators. Even though there's a paragraph break here in the ESV, the translation that says be awake or be, you know, uh, do not sleep like this language that's specifically connected to this, like not falling asleep aspect of watchfulness, they're signaling to you that this sentence belongs with the parable above it. Right. Almost exclusively. Right. Because there's nothing in the next parable that has anything to do with being awake or sleeping.  [00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:46:36] Tony Arsenal: Right. So, so by translating it as sleep language or do not sleep language, they're sealing it off from the parable that follows and they're kind of like making it this firm break in the text. That's not there in the Greek. That language is not there in the Greek. And it's, um, again, I think the sleep language, that's certainly a part of this word and it's, it's fine for us to interpret this word in light of the parable that came before it, as long as we're not letting that interpretation of it in light of the word that came before it seal it off from the next parable. And I, I worry that if we, if we think about it in terms of the sleepiness aspect of it, which again, there's already some contextual reasons why that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would, why would Christ command to the people that are listening to him be about not falling asleep when falling asleep was not the problem in the, in the bearable He's told. Right, right. But the problem was, was be prepared. And it actually may be, this is also maybe an overt translation. A better translation might be, be prepared, therefore, right. Be alert, be wakeful, be be mindful, be uh, be on top of things. Right. Be ready for anything. Might be a good way to look at this. Be ready for anything for you. Neither know the day nor the hour. Four. It will be like a man going on a journey and called his servants and entrusted them to his property. So he tells the parable of the virgins, which is, is all about being prepared for the sudden, unexpected coming of the Lord after a delay, after he tarries. And then he says, for it will be like a man going on a journey. Well, what will be like a man going on a journey? The coming of the Lord, the coming of the bridegroom, the coming of the one, the promised one from the previous parable, the bride groom. For that will be like a man going on a journey for the day on the hour, which you do not know. That will be like a man going on a journey, I think. Um, and this will be the last thing I say before I, I let you jump in and, and we're getting close to ending anyways here. I think that, um, these parables are so often, uh, this parable about the talents and the parallels. I mean, there's several different par uh, parables that have to do with this theory. This sort of like scenario of like a master is giving some, some funds to his servants, or a man going on a journey. He's giving some funds to his servants and he expects them to make a return. Right? That's a, there's multiple parables that tell that same basic principle. This one here. Is an eschatological one, but I think it gets clumped in with the others in sort of this idea. And it doesn't hurt that the word talents has a meaning in English, right? It gets clumped in with these sort of like way of teaching this that's like Christ has given you some special abilities and some gifts, you better use it for his glory. Or you're all done. That's not really at all what this is talking about, at least this version of it. You might be able to make an argument for some of the others that that is about kingdom fruitfulness and, and to much is given, much is expected, right? That's the output of those parables. This one is really, it's explicitly about being prepared for this sudden arrival of the bridegroom, uh, after he delays, after he tarries. So that's all I'll say for now on that. I just, this is. This is why we had to do another episode, right? Like, because we couldn't do all of this Last week we started and we were like, we gotta push pause, save something for next week. This is one of those like realtime discoveries, realtime uh, epiphanies that I'm just like, I cannot believe I didn't see this in the text before, but I'm so glad that we're doing this deep dive. This sort of like long running slow burns through these parables because these are the kinds of things we're able to see when we really slow down and take our time.  [00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's that good old like crockpot theology. I'm with you. There is like in the next par we'll see a kind of manifest fruitfulness that comes from a preparedness and if, if we divorce that we're gonna get to the end of the next parable. And I think what we'd find is that, wow, the master seems super harsh here. Why is he so ticked off that the people with whom he entrusted all of these resources didn't do anything with them? It just seems like he's overzealous in saying, well, you just wasted a lot of things until you see like that full emphasis that comes all the way through these other parables in terms of the reason why. Then I think it starts to make more sense. So I did have to look it up like you're right, that the NIV has therefore keep watch. The King James version also is using watch, therefore. So if that's the emphasis, in other words, if the thrust is you ought to be watchful and prepared in all of your life for all the things preparing for Christ, doing the things in the work of Christ. Now it makes sense that to go away again and to have this time of not knowing when the perusia happens and being unprepared and unfruitful because you were not watchful, because you did not do the things you ought to have done and be making yourself again aware and vigilant in that awareness, then there's a problem. And that's like gonna be, I think, the full thrust of what's gonna happen that we're gonna see next when we look into this parable. I think it's important to remember that this parable is not as it sometimes is presented like an allegorize timeless moral maxim that's divorced from its eschatological referring. Yeah, the 10 virgins are figures of those awaiting Christ perusia. The oil is not some kind like vague symbol of like good works in a ian sense, but I think it's best understood as the reality of saving grace and the spirits in dwelling, which cannot be borrowed or transferred. If all of that is true. Then how does that manifest in daily living? What does that look like? And then what does that lead to on the day of judgment? All of that is to come for us, but it actually starts in this verse here in verse 13, just with the simple, very direct, but e expressly articulated phrase, be watchful or be prepared. Maybe like a better incidentally, like contemporary treatment would be like, don't sleep on this. Like, I like the word sleep in that context. Yeah. Which of course, when somebody says that to you, they're not actually meaning like, don't fall asleep now. But make sure that you're paying attention to this thing. Get after this thing, go and grab this thing, get a hold of this very thing. Make it your priority. And I think really that is what is Christ is after here as he moves us from one example into another. That's almost, again, to me like the manifestation or the outworking 'cause because one might ask, and maybe this is like a good question, he was anticipating, you hear that story and we're just used to like things moving, or like you said, like discreet chunks of text, which we appropriate for ourselves. We take out, it's almost as they have little boxes on the shelf and we remove that box. We look at it, we study it, we turn over, we put it back, and it's a little compartment place. And instead you can imagine, uh, as I could, I think if you were hearing this in the context of conversation, of teaching in this way, that you might say like, so what? Like be prepared for what, how do we get prepared? What does preparedness look like? And so that's what's coming for us next.  [00:53:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think that's, um, important for this parable, um, there are some places in the scripture in the, uh, in the gospels where Christ's teaching and nothing specific comes to mind. So this is. Hypothetical, but I know there are actual places. I just can't think of anything right off the top of my head. There are some places where sort of like discrete chunks of Christ's teaching are juxtaposed next to other discreet chunks. Sure. That's an editorial decision by the gospel author. Right. Matthew makes a decision to put this story next to this story, and we might see in Luke actually, it's slightly different. A good, a good example would be like in the temptation narratives, um, the order of the Temptations is different I think between Matthew and Luke. Right. And there's, there's an editorial decision that's made there and there's a theological reason. I don't know off the top of my head what it is. I'm sure I studied it in, you know, like gospels class in seminary. Um, that's not what's happening here, right? These are not two discreet chunks of text. That Matthew has decided to put together, right? Right. Christ is the one that says, watch therefore for you. Neither know the day nor the hour for it will be like a man going on a journey. Christ is the one who has decided, and this is one chunk of teaching. There's, um, like the Sermon on the Mount, I guess is maybe the classic example. The, the fact is Jesus probably did not deliver that entire section of text in one sitting. Um, and in fact, actually it's, it's more likely that there was much more teaching going on in that like, section of text that that's not recorded. So Matthew has made an editorial decision to probably truncate Christ's actual teaching for a specific theological purpose, right? That's not what's going on here. Christ himself has strung these different parables together, and we know that because Christ is the one who, who is using. Um, granted Christ was probably speaking in Aramaic Matthews exercising some editorial discretion in what, what words he's using when he translates Christ's words into Greek from Right. Probably Aramaic. Um. But whatever he's saying, Christ is the one that was originating these, these logical connections, right? Arame has these same kind of logical connector words, and Matthew is choosing Greek words to translate them, but Christ himself, um. In his human mode of teaching his human nature. Right? Christ as the master teacher who has to think about discursively, has to think about what teaching he's going to give and in what order and how is he gonna connect them. Right? Not in the sense of like, the Holy Spirit is inspired, this text, so of course it comes together in an intentional way. But Christ, when he planned, or, or as he was spontaneously delivering this, you know, I'm not sure if like Christ sat down and like wrote out his sermons or thought out his sermons ahead of time. [00:56:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:56:35] Tony Arsenal: Um, Christ was the one who decided that the parable of the talents, uh, was a proper explainer for the parable of the, the fool wise and foolish virgins. Christ was the one who decided that, um, that because of what he said in verses one through 13 of Matthew 25, because of that. Uh, he, we need to be watchful and that, uh, because we need to be watchful or just as, uh, like the day or the hour, it will be like a man going under that was Christ's decision to put those together. Right. So I think we've talked about this almost like tangentially in another context that it, it's a little bit interesting. Um, I'm not personally a fan of like chronological Bible readings. I don't know if you and I have talked about this before, but like the Bible is inspired, right? Right. And God chose to put the cannon, uh, although I could be convinced that the, the canonical arrangement might be. Holy Spirit, something along the lines of inspired, right? There's certain elements that I think go together by providence. Um, but, but for sure within the text, the, the, within a given body of text, the final form of the text we have is an inspired arrangement, right? Um, that is just as true when we're talking about, uh, not wanting to do chronological Bible readings because it breaks up inspired texts. There's nothing immoral about that. I just don't like it. 'cause God chose for certain texts to be next to each other within the Book of Chronicles, for example. Or within the Psalms, for example. Um. That's the same dynamic that's going on here, right? This is not, um, not only within the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but within Christ's own human mind as he's planning and formulating this teaching and delivering it, versus one through 13 is inextricably linked with verses 14 and following. Um, and I know that we're, we're not even gonna have enough time to read verses 14 and following. 'cause that's kind of how we roll on this as we spend an hour talking about what we're gonna talk about before we actually talk about it.  [00:58:41] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:58:41] Tony Arsenal: right. But I think it was important for us to sort of like land that connection and really nail it because. Again, I will just speak for myself. The idea of reading these two parables together as a pair, as a, as a cohesive whole, as a single unit in Christ's teaching is totally new to me starting last week. Like this is a totally new  [00:59:05] Jesse Schwamb: I  [00:59:05] Tony Arsenal: agree. Way of looking at this. It probably shouldn't be  [00:59:08] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:59:08] Tony Arsenal: Um, like I said, most of the commentaries that you look at are gonna tell you that these two are connected. If, if they're worth their salt, um, because of this grammatical constructs and e even just be thematically, they make sense. But in the sort of cursory look that I've had and the various ways that I've been taught these parables in. This is not a slam on youth ministry. 'cause I love those who minister to our youth. And I think it's important, but especially in the context of youth ministry. I made a joke earlier about how the word talent sort of like directs us to a certain understanding of what this passage means, and we'll talk about that when we get there.  [00:59:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. I,  [00:59:44] Tony Arsenal: I think that's actually like really a dynamic that's a problem. And this sort of like, you better live your life for Jesus. Like, don't waste your retirement. Like that kind of like language, um, that often uses this parable as like a, you better be working hard for Jesus because when he comes back you wanna have those 10 cities when you get to heaven. Not just the five. Like that, that is a distortion at minimum. That's a distortion of what this parable is actually teaching, if not a downright like contradictory teaching. I think in some ways,  [01:00:19] Jesse Schwamb: right. I totally agree with you. I think the best way I can think about this now after we've had this conversation for an hour is lemme provide an old school example for anybody that's ever seen Wheel of Fortune. It occurred to me that they have this particular puzzle, which I had to look up 'cause I couldn't remember what it was called, but it's a phrase puzzle. It's made by stringing two phrases together that share a common word. Yeah. So one phrase is a word at the end, one at the beginning. So examples might be like, back to the future party or home sweet homework or break the ice cream or piece of cake walk. What strikes me now is verse 13 is this, that's the linchpins, the phrase. That phrase puzzle here, that brings together the parable of the divergence and the parable of the talents, and they share that middle part in joint connection so that there is a smooth transition from one to the other. So much so that you don't even realize, or probably shouldn't realize that they are different. But merely that's, it's not, it's more than a continuation, right? It is bringing together, again, an example of what it means to be aware that you need to be prepared, and then what it looks like that your preparedness has taken place. So I think at least today, what we've learned is that this verse again, of course, teaches clearly that Christ is coming and nobody knows when, and that the only then fitting response is a spirit sustained readiness expressed in every dimension of life. And so I think next week we're gonna get into an example of what that looks like.  [01:01:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jesse, this has been a phenomenal conversation today. I'm really edified. It has, you know, as we. You and I talked about last, last week before we, after we turned off the microphones, like it's been so edifying to me to just work my way through these parables slowly. Right? Um, I found the same thing when we worked through Mica and, and even, even when like working through the Scot's confession slowly. Like there's something about taking. A, a topic and, and of course like God's word is the supreme topic, but something about going through I'm, I'm stealing a book out or a, a play outta Matt Whitman's book here, actually. Like, I so appreciate the blessing in my life that working through these parables has been, and honestly, I don't think I would ever have slowed down enough in these kinds of parables apart from the fact that we're doing this on the podcast. And so I wanna say thank you to our podcast audience. Um,  [01:02:40] Jesse Schwamb: yes,  [01:02:41] Tony Arsenal: we've commented in the past and I think we mean it, but although, although we mean it, I'm not always a hundred percent. It's true. Um, we would probably be having these kinds of conversations or similar conversations without microphones. Like Jesse and I text with each other, we chat with each other regularly. I don't think we would sit down and work our way through the parables verse by verse, right. Over the course of years, probably. No. Um, you know, as, uh, if it wasn't for the podcast, so thank you to the people who listen to our show, who give us a good excuse to do this. Like Yeah. Amen. There's not a lot of people who can justify taking an hour or two hours outta their week to just sit down and talk about theology. Um, I know we all love, we all wish we could do that, and we all love when we have the sort of random opportunity to sit down with someone and just chat theology for a couple hours. But Jesse and I get to do that every week and it's been a huge blessing for more than 10 years now. We're coming up on 500 episodes. Um, it's been a huge blessing in my life. I know it's been a blessing in Jesse's life. My, our wives might not always say it this way, but I can tell you actually it's been a blessing in their lives. [01:03:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, for sure.  [01:03:48] Tony Arsenal: I know that there have been times that my wife has been benefited from, from not just things she's heard on the podcast. My, this is gonna sound so grandiose, and it's not meant to be like, my ability to lead as a husband and to love my wife is improved when God sanctifies me. And the podcast has been a source of sanctification Right on for my life. Right on. So thank you so much to everyone who puts their trust in us and literally lets us beam our thoughts directly into your brain every week. Uh, it's a huge blessing and an honor, and we take that very seriously. So I, and there's no, I'm gonna just like, there's no Patreon hook now. If you guys wanna donate, you know how to do that. This is just a genuine thank you for trusting us and for giving us the opportunity to do this work, this theology publicly together. It's a huge blessing in my life.  [01:04:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree. I'll listen. Loved ones. You don't have to take our word for it. You know what to do, honor everyone.  [01:04:44] Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood. 

In this profound exploration of Matthew 25:1-13, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb unpack the parable of the ten virgins, revealing it as far more than a simple warning about preparedness. Moving beyond dispensational "rapture ready" interpretations, they demonstrate how this parable addresses the spiritual condition required for entrance into God's consummated kingdom. The discussion centers on the critical distinction between outward religious profession and genuine possession of the Holy Spirit's grace. With pastoral sensitivity and theological depth, the hosts examine the meaning of the oil, the significance of the midnight cry, and the urgency of both evangelism and personal examination. This episode challenges listeners to consider whether they possess not just the lamp of profession, but the oil of saving grace that alone sustains faith through the waiting period before Christ's return. Key Takeaways The oil represents saving grace, not perfect obedience - The critical distinction in the parable is not between those who stayed awake versus those who slept (all ten virgins fell asleep), but between those who possessed oil and those who didn't. The oil symbolizes the indwelling, regenerating, sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit—the grace that comes through effectual calling and genuine conversion. This parable warns against mere outward profession - All ten virgins carried lamps and waited for the bridegroom, representing outward religious activity and profession. The difference lay in the interior spiritual reality—whether that profession was accompanied by the transforming grace of the Holy Spirit or remained empty formalism. The "midnight cry" represents both personal death and Christ's return - Historically, Reformed expositors understood the midnight cry as either the actual cry of Christ's angels at His return or the voice of God in individual death. Each person's death functions as their personal midnight that irrevocably fixes their eternal state. Readiness is not about sinless perfection but possession of grace - The parable is not teaching a fearful "rapture ready" theology where Christians must be perfectly sinless when Christ returns. Rather, it teaches that readiness consists in possessing saving grace through faith in Christ, which sustains believers even when they "sleep" (fall into sin or spiritual drowsiness). There is urgency in the gospel call - The parable emphasizes that the opportunity for salvation has a deadline—"you know neither the day nor the hour." This creates urgency both for unbelievers to trust Christ and for believers to share the gospel, since no one knows when their personal "midnight" will arrive. Calvin's insight: you "buy" oil by receiving it freely through faith - Though the parable speaks of "buying" oil, Calvin notes this doesn't imply paying a price. Just as Isaiah invites people to buy wine and milk without money, we obtain the oil of grace not through merit or payment, but by receiving through faith what Christ freely offers. Key Concepts The Oil as Symbol of the Holy Spirit's Grace The oil in this parable has been consistently interpreted throughout church history as representing the grace of the Holy Spirit—specifically the indwelling, regenerating, and sanctifying presence that comes through genuine conversion. This interpretation aligns with Old Testament symbolism where anointing oil signified the Spirit's presence (as in "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit"). The crucial distinction Jesus makes is not about external religious activity (both groups had lamps and waited), but about internal spiritual reality. Just as a lamp cannot burn without oil, religious profession without the Spirit's grace has no sustaining power. This oil cannot be shared or borrowed; it must be personally possessed. The parable thus exposes the deadly danger of assuming that outward Christian activities—church attendance, biblical knowledge, moral behavior—constitute genuine Christianity when the transforming work of the Spirit is absent. All the Virgins Slept: Grace Overcomes Human Weakness One of the most important details often overlooked is that both the wise and foolish virgins fell asleep while waiting for the bridegroom. This demolishes any interpretation suggesting the parable is about maintaining perfect spiritual vigilance or sinless living. The wise virgins' readiness was not based on their superior wakefulness or moral stamina—they fell asleep just like the foolish ones. Their preparedness came from having secured the oil beforehand. This has profound theological implications: our salvation and readiness for Christ's return does not depend on our ability to maintain perfect spiritual alertness or sinless perfection. Even when believers "sleep"—when they fall into sin, experience spiritual dullness, or fail in vigilance—they remain prepared because they possess the oil of the Spirit's grace. The parable thus provides comfort alongside its warning: those who have truly received Christ need not live in constant fear that a moment of weakness will disqualify them when He returns. The Midnight Cry and Personal Eschatology The midnight cry in verse 6 functions on multiple levels theologically. Universally, it points to Christ's unexpected second coming at the end of history. But Reformed interpreters have also recognized its application to individual eschatology—each person's death serves as their personal "midnight cry" that ends all opportunity for preparation. This dual meaning creates urgency both for evangelism and self-examination. The parable warns that whether Christ returns globally or death comes individually, that moment will arrive unexpectedly ("at midnight," the hour of deepest sleep) and irrevocably fix one's eternal state. Once the door is shut, no amount of pleading ("Lord, Lord, open to us") can change one's condition. This underscores a biblical truth often denied in contemporary theology: there is no post-mortem opportunity for salvation, no remedial path after death. The time for obtaining oil is now, in this life, before the cry sounds. Memorable Quotes Every man's death to him is the coming of Christ. That's when our state is irrevocably fixed. And so there's an urgency here—an urgency of evangelism and self-examination because the midnight cry may come at any moment. The difference between the wise and the foolish virgins is not that one of them stays awake and one of them falls asleep. The difference between the wise and the foolish is that the ones that are wise are prepared for when the bridegroom comes, even though they fell asleep. The only way to be prepared for the end is to turn to Jesus. It's not about whether or not you've turned to Jesus and have become perfectly sinless. None of us are like that. It's about trusting Jesus. Full Episode Transcript Welcome to episode 494 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:10] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Looks like you and I need to get a midnight oil check. That's if you know, you know, that's what's coming up on this episode, and we're headed to Matthew 25 to do that oil check. We're still firmly in all of these beautiful parables that Jesus tells us, and this one goes by various names. You might know it as the parable of the 10 virgins, or if you're Petra. That classic Christian rock group who produced a song called Midnight Oil, which is absolutely a banger that that should be like the the theme song of this episode. If you haven't heard that song, go check out Midnight Oil by Petra and then come back and listen to us. Like, I wish we had the rights to that. We could just drop it in right here. But we're not that cool and we're not gonna edit that. So I'm gonna leave it up to you to craft your own version of this podcast with that great backing track. Have you heard that song?  [00:02:09] Tony Arsenal: I actually haven't. I, I came, uh, came into Christianity sort of at the tail end of Petra's Big Influence. So I know, I knew who Petra is. I've listened to a few of their songs, but they weren't mainstream by any sort, sort of, uh, stretch of the imagination when I was listening to Christian music. So  [00:02:28] Jesse Schwamb: this one's so good. It's so good. And it's right on point for our conversation today. So we're gonna get into all that stuff. The oil check, the midnight nature of it, the 10 virgins. What does it all mean? Of course, Tony and me, we have for you what I believe to be the definitive exegetical and hermeneutical reflection on the parable. So that's what you've come to expect from us and we're happy to deliver, but before we deliver on that, we got all the things we have to deliver to you, and that is affirming with or denying against something that's that point of course in the podcast or our conversation where we choose something they firm with that we think is. Undervalued, something we might recommend or conversely to deny against something that maybe is a little bit too overvalued or just not that great. So Tony, as is our customer, I say to you, sir, what are you doing? Are you affirming with something or are you denying against something?  [00:03:16] Denial Memory Blank [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying something. This is like denial. Ception is what's going on here. So, uh, first of all, thank you, Jesse for, uh, pitch hitting a solo episode at like, literally the last minute, last week. Um, I think we normally record at seven 30 on the Lord's Day, and I think I texted Jesse like 6 45 and was like, I just don't have it in the tank today. Can you do something? And he just hopped behind the mic. So that's a bonus affirmation there. But, uh, Jesse and I were, we're having a little bit of a pregame, uh, today, very much, you know, like five minutes of how you doing and are you ready to go? And, uh, I realized I, I had a really great affirmation last week, all ready to rock. I remember being super excited about it. I remember, uh, when I decided, or when we decided you were gonna do a solo episode thinking, I gotta make sure I remember this for next week. Right? And it has totally left my brain. It's gone. And, uh, it's, it's the worst feeling in the world when that happens. And I remember reading at some point, like, there's a biochemical reason why this happens and why it feels so weird. Like, it, it feels like you should be able to just dive into your mind and like search around enough and find it. And that's just not actually how your, how like your memory works. It's not, um. I think we think of memory as though it's like a big filing cabinet and you can just, like, you can just flip through the CAD catalog like long enough and find it. That's not how it works. Um, it's kind of like more organic network kind of stuff. But yeah, the, the, it's gone. It's just gone and I hate that feeling and it's gone. And that's what I'm denying is that feeling and losing your mind and feeling like you don't remember anything.  [00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: I'm totally with you because incidentally, as we talked, we discovered we both had that experience because I had something too. And it's not just that, well, you know, we try to set aside or do a little prep on the affirmations and denials because you know, we come across something great in life, or again, the opposite. And you think, I gotta remember this because I wanna talk about this with Tony. And the worst part of that is like twofold. One, it never is great to forget something that you had or you knew you knew at one time, but it's all the less satisfying when it was something that you're super excited about and you're like, this is gonna be great. And it's that thing that you've completely forgotten that's like double the worst. So I'm, I'm totally with you in this denial. [00:05:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's a really frustrating, terrible feeling. And there's not much you can do about it. And the, the secondary denial to that is it always comes back to you in the worst possible part of whatever conversation you're having. It's like you hem and hover it and you think about it and you, and I'm doing it right now. You, you sit here and you, you continue to try to talk thingy. It's gonna come, it's gonna come. Yes. It's gonna get here.  [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.  [00:06:00] Tony Arsenal: And then just when you finally have resigned yourself and, and the conversation moves on, that's when it comes back around. So I don't know if that's gonna happen or not, Jesse. If it does, I will try my best to ignore it, but I probably won't be able to. So No, I think you probably should get moving. So whatever it was the amazing affirmation, I don't remember. It can come back to us.  [00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: It can come back. Yeah. I'm hoping that it does. And when it does, you guys just tell us you got, just let it, let it rip. Like even if we're like right in the middle of some deep, heavy, robust, thick theology, I just wanna be like. I, I can't even imagine what your affirmation was. It must have been like something pretty, pretty good.  [00:06:33] Tony Arsenal: I don't know. I don't know. I, I'm sure it was something interesting. I don't even, I'm  [00:06:37] Jesse Schwamb: trying to draw it out of you now.  [00:06:38] Tony Arsenal: Course. I can't even like, think of the ballpark of what part of like, what, what the category even was. It's just totally, it's totally gone. Like it never happened. Yep. It's, it's totally, totally gone. So I keep on saying, and you would think with all of my talk of like note taking apps and how important it's to keep a journal and all the stuff we've talked about that I would finally get around to like just jotting down in Apple Notes what my affirmations are and I just never do it. So. Yeah,  [00:07:05] Jesse Schwamb: I have every intention, but then I think, well, this is the record of them and I'll have it available to me when it comes time. The talk that's, and sometimes it just goes away. Has it happened yet? I'm still trying to draw it out of you by talking.  [00:07:15] Tony Arsenal: No, I'm just gonna give up. It's just gone. It's gone. That's just gone.  [00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: That's, that's fair enough. Maybe. What do you  [00:07:21] Tony Arsenal: got for us, Jesse?  [00:07:22] Prayer and Anointing [00:07:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe I can just help push it along, as it were by my own. So I'm also affirming with something, lemme just read a couple verses from James chapter five. Is anyone Among You Sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and there to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will save the one who's sick and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, they'll be forgiven him. I had really just the profound opportunity and privilege today to participate in this because. My wife at the end of this week, uh, which will be a week past when this is, this airs, is about to go undergo that serious surgery, which she spoke about in an episode, I don't know, maybe several weeks ago. And, uh, my pastor asked if it would, if he'd like us and the elders, um, to come and to pray over my wife. And they did so after our service today. And it was just a really incredible thing. Even I'm still processing it. I don't really know. Like the words to say with what I can bring forward is just like words of gratitude and gratefulness for this kind of living out of the scriptures. What I can say is that the way in which he brought this forward and the elders prayed was just so incredibly loving and genteel and spirit-filled. And I think which is a manifestation of, of God's love for us in this moment as we prepare for this great thing to give us peace, peace, and to increase our faith and to do so by just following what the scriptures say here. So my affirmation is maybe twofold. One, it's for this particular experience, it's certainly for pastors, for elders who make it their objective to care for their flock and to do so under the rubric and the instruction of the scriptures. So I'm grateful, and if you have those kind of pastors and elders in your life, I hope that you'll be grateful to them for them as well, and that you might express that gratefulness. So this was a really incredible and, and lovely thing, and, uh, fills us with a kind of hope and encouragement. And if anything else was a reminder of the feel, there's something different going to experience like this armed fully with the promises of God and asking that he would be glorified, that our testimonies would be strong, and that of course, that he would bring healing through it. So I'm ever so grateful and affirming what this passage and this passage put into practice.  [00:09:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And if you are listening to this, when, uh, when it comes out or shortly after, probably not even shortly after, probably for a couple weeks after or months after, um, uh, Jesse's wife Jen did talk about the surgery and the condition she's been suffering under. So, uh, she's part of the Reformed Brotherhood family. She is, uh, just as important to the show, uh, as Jesse and I are in terms of the support that our wives give us and, and the space that we need to do this. So please do pray for Jen. Um, she'll be recovering when you hear this, if it's anywhere near the time that this comes out. Uh, it's a fairly large surgery with a, a, a moderately long recovery time. So please, uh, please do pray for her, uh, and, and make sure that you're lifting her up. Um, we are trusting the Lord for good things, uh, for her. Yes. And uh, we're confident that he, his will will be done 'cause it always is. But yeah, definitely pray for her. [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Thank you for saying that, Tony. I appreciate that as her husband and. We are encouraged that we've said this before, but this is where our theology matters, isn't it? It's in the times where we come before the Lord in faith and in full trust, because one, there's nowhere else to go. He has the words of life for us. He is our life, but also because. In his son, this beautiful gift of salvation whereby his son is the suffering servant. So he's well acquainted with all of this kind of thing. And so stands with us in every conceivable way to be both so incredibly transcendent and above the nonsense and the noise of our world with full power and sovereignty over all things. And at the same time, to be fully eminent. To be literally with us in all the ways. In all the things. And again, well acquainted with our condition, including the grief and the suffering, the anxiety, the all of this, which we experience as part and parcel of what it means to be human, who is like our God in this way. And so we do sense his great and uncommon care for us, and it would be dishonest of me even in the midst of these difficult and challenging things to say that he doesn't care for us. He has good and he loves us, and he's making a way, even though that way be hired. So we're sensing even from, I think, following that time of prayer, that whether we receive the bread of affliction. Uh, or the, the water of of agony that we hear God's voice behind us saying, this is the way, walk in it, and he's with us. So I hope that's encouragement maybe to others who are also going through their own things and who isn't going through something, right?  [00:12:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:12:18] Jesse Schwamb: So we all have this great promise in the gospel that God is for us, and I love that James here gives us some practical instruction to that end. [00:12:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:31] Support the Show [00:12:31] Tony Arsenal: Well, before we move into our topic for the evening, uh, the internet tells me that I'm supposed to do this at this point in the show rather than at the very end like we usually do. Well, let's do it. Um, we are a listener supported episode, not like PBS, uh, not like other things. Uh, maybe kind of a little bit like PBS Yeah, a little bit. Anyway, uh, we have a, a pretty dedicated group of Patreon supporters who, uh, donate a little bit and sometimes some people, a lot, a bit of their discretionary income, uh, to help make the show go. And we've said before, like, we are not interested in providing special content or special gear or swag every once in a while. I think we did it once and we've, we've got plans to do it again sometime in the future. We'll send out a thank you gift to those who are subscribing through Patreon. Um, but we are committed to producing the show and making everything that we put online and everything that we make available, available to everybody. And really the only reason that we can do that, especially in today's economy, is uh, because there are people who support the show. And so we always want to make sure that we're saying we're thank you to those people. Yes. Um, they are a part of this show. I don't know if we are not gonna do like executive producer credits, but they're as close to that as you can get. Since we don't do that, um, we really wouldn't be able to do the show, at least not the way that it is without that supporting group of people. So if that's something that you hear and you no, I kind of think that maybe I wanna be a part of that. We would love for you to go to patreon.com/reform tears. There's no special swag, there's no early releases or anything like that. Um, but we would love if you would partner with us. Um, this is a lowercase m ministry, and if you've listened to the show for a long time, you know what I mean by that. Uh, we, we do consider this to be a calling, something that God has given us and we, we understand there's a responsibility with it, but we also know that we can't do it alone. So if you're interested after you've fulfilled all your personal finance obligations, your obligation to your local church and your immediate area, if there's a little bit left over that you're looking to spend somewhere on something that is valuable, uh, please do consider going to patreon.com/form Brotherhood. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: And if you've been listening for a while and you've thought, you know what, I wonder who else is out there that's like me, that's listening to these guys on the internet. Guess what? You can actually meet some of those people. They have a little spot where they hang out. It's called Telegram. It's just a chat app, and we have our own little section of that app. If you just go to your favorite browser, whatever it is, you can choose and go to wherever you like, just go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood. And that link will take you into kind of a preview land where you can see the space where everybody's talking, and you can peruse some of the different channels, everything from uh, channels just for prayer, for a crusting, prayer to general conversation, talk about the episodes, talk about baptism, all kinds of things. It is, as we always say, one of the kindest, most charitable, most loving corners of the internet. Guaranteed. You can test us on that. So in fact, you should by going to t.me back slash reform Brotherhood, Tony, back to you. [00:15:36] Eschatology Shift [00:15:36] Tony Arsenal: Well, let's just slam it right into gear. We, we, we haven't figured out how to do transitions into or out of, uh, Patreon announcements, uh, or telegram announcements,  [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:15:46] Tony Arsenal: So this, I, maybe this is the awkward charm of the show, or maybe it's just the awkwardness of the show. It's just charm, Jesse,  [00:15:53] Jesse Schwamb: all charm. [00:15:53] Tony Arsenal: We need to talk about some things tonight. We need to talk about some oil. Yes. We need to talk about some lamps. Yes. We need talk about some bridegrooms.  [00:16:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:16:00] Tony Arsenal: It's the parable of the 10 virgins or the 10 lamps, or the parable of the oil flasks. Yes. There's lots of different things that it's called. Uh, it's what it isn't, it's not the parable of, uh, the 24 hour Jiffy Lube, which is what it made, what you made it sound like when you talked about the midnight oil check. Um,  [00:16:18] Jesse Schwamb: I  [00:16:18] Tony Arsenal: didn't even think about that. But yeah. This is, this is a good one. And I think we've, we've sort of. I've sort of observed that the parables do tend to clump around systematic theology themes, and they clump within the narrative of the gospel within Matthew itself around themes. So the last three parables that we talked about were all sort of like parables of judgment against the Pharisees and a, a lot of things like unconditional election and reparation were all baked into that pie. You know, we talked about with the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost, um, the lost, uh, brother. We talked about how that has a lot to do with like election. It has to do with salvation and what the gospel looks like in terms of justification in the father's initiative. And we're moving into a section of Matthew, um, where Jesus is starting to teach on the last days. And so the parables in this section start to move toward ha to have more of an eschatological bent. Yes. We talked a little bit about some of the eschatology and the parables when we, we went through the, um, through the, the. Um, my brain just left me. It happened again, Jesse. The, the denial thing, uh, when we talked about the parable of the tears and the wind field and the, the, the different kinds of soils back on track, there was an eschatological element to that. But we are in like straight up eschatology Yeah. In these, these sections now. That's right. So we're coming to the end of Matthew, uh, our plan right now and who knows what the Lord has for us. But the plan right now is once we finish Matthew, to go back and visit some of the parables that are present in the other gospels. And there's not too many of 'em, but that are present in the other gospels that aren't necessarily, uh, present in Matthew. So, like you said, there's not a ton of 'em. Uh, we do want to hit all of 'em. And if there's, if there's time, and I say if there's time as though we have some sort of time constraints, um, if there's time we probably will talk a little bit about some of the I am statements and some of the things in John. 'cause John doesn't do parables quite the same way in quite the same fashion, but he does have sort of some of this. Allegorical figurative language baked into some of his, um, some of his writings or some of the accounts of Jesus that he, he, um, captures that are probably worth talking about in the seam light. So right now we're, we're coming up quick on the end of the parables of Matthew. Um, there's not very many left and then we'll, we'll keep moving on. Uh, that said. We are, it's almost unbelievable to say this. We're going to be coming up to the end of the parable series sometime in the next, I dunno, six to 10 months. Uh, if you've got ideas for what you think the next series should be, start thinking about those now. Bring 'em to the telegram chat. Let's start percolating those ideas up, right? And, uh, like a good coffee maker. And we'll, uh, we'll brew some goodness. How many more parables? How many more, uh, metaphors can I throw in there? Puns, can I throw in there? But yeah, Jesse, let's get started. This is a good one.  [00:19:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that was a really, I think, fine introduction. I always enjoyed this parable because it has some really fun, dramatic elements, but I think I, I really haven't really appreciated all the eschatological underpinnings that you were just mentioning. And when you think about it as we're, I think we're gonna soon find here. That this is one of the most searching and solemn parables, actually, that Jesus uttered, and you start to get a sense for that as we've just kind of been hitting them, one after the other. As you said, this one belongs to the great olive discourse. It's delivered by Jesus to his disciples on the Mount of Olives just days before his crucifixion. It's in direct response to their questions about the destruction of Jerusalem and the sign of his condiment coming and the end of the age. So you're right. I think this carries like unmistakable eschatological weight because it's not merely this fable about preparedness in general, which sometimes is where we go. Yeah. But it's really more of like a precise theological warning about the spiritual condition required for entrance into the consummated kingdom of God at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  [00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,  [00:20:11] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's the full setup.  [00:20:12] Read Matthew 25 [00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've gotta go to the scriptures, right?  [00:20:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:16] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. It's time. You want me to read it? [00:20:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.  [00:20:18] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. Here we go. Matthew 25, beginning in verse one, then the kingdom of heaven may be compared to 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bride groom. Now, five of them were foolish and five were prudent for when the foolish took their lamps. They took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout. Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him. Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the prudent, give us some of your oil for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered saying, no, there will not be enough for us and for you too. Go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves. And while they're going away to make the purchase, that bridegroom came and those who already went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. And later the other versions came also saying, Lord, Lord, open for us. But he answered and said, truly, I say to you, I do not know you. Therefore, stay awake for you do not know the day nor the hour.  [00:21:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:21:29] Assurance Not Fear [00:21:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, this one's heavy. And I just wanna say, kind of coming into this, right, I think a lot of our audience, and I would, I would include myself in this, um, we, we came to sort of like an awareness of faith. And I, I don't say that in a sort of tongue in cheek fashion. What I mean, um. I'll, I'll just speak from my perspective, but I think it's probably one that resonates. I came to faith when I was a, you know, a relatively young teenager, 15 years old, and, um, when you first become a Christian, you're not aware of all the different theological debates or even all of the major implications of the Christian faith. And I think a lot of us and myself, uh, as, as sort of the example when we be started to become aware of the different conversations happening in different dynamics and some of the more, uh, maybe third or fourth tier doctrines that you learn when you're, um, sort of being catechized as a new Christian, uh, catechized in sort of an informal sense, eschatology is probably one of those ones that comes along fairly, fairly late in the game. And I recall, um, when I first became aware of the left behind books, right? And so I, I came to faith in a large Lutheran megachurch, uh, that wasn't really as Lutheran as you would think, cup being a large Lutheran megachurch. It was very dispensational. And I think there is a sense of dread and fear associated with rapture ready theology. And I don't, I don't think all dispensationalist that, um, believe in a, a literal rapture of the church either prior to or following or in the middle of the tribulation. I don't think all dispensationalist fall into this category. But there are definitely dispensationalist out there that would emphasize being rapture ready. And you know, you think of like the song, I wish We'd All Been Ready, you know, and, and this, this sort of existential fear that the Rapture's gonna come and I'm not gonna be ready and I'm gonna be left behind. Right. There's an, the entire book series is about people who thought that they were Christians who thought that they were justified and saved and then weren't. And, and I don't think the book gives all that much explanation other than sort of like a general sense of like, these are sort of nominal fake Christians that maybe some of them think they're saved and some of them don't. I know there were definitely characters in the book who really thought that they were followers of Jesus and then they didn't realize they weren't until they were not raptured with everyone else. The only reason I sort of launch into that progam is I think that the tendency in most circles because of the pervasive. Sort of all expansive influence of dispensationalism in the United States, and particularly sort of this like rapture ready, left behind theology that is a, a major thread within, um, American dispensationalism. There's a tendency to look at this almost exclusively in light of that sort of rapture ready fear that right the end is gonna come and I'm not gonna be ready and. I don't, I'm not a dispensationalist, I don't hold to a rapture in that sense. I don't think you do either. Jesse and I, I think there's an element of this that has that same flavor that we have to acknowledge, but I don't think we should read this in light of like, you think you're gonna be fine, but actually you're not. So you better get it together. I don't think that that's the point of the parable. Um, and I wanna say that upfront because it is easy to read a parable like this and to, to become extremely fearful to the point that it actually shakes whatever assurance you may have had. And I've said it before and, and I, I will say it again, it is not, I am not in the business of robbing the assurance away from Christians. The assurance of faith and the assurance of salvation is the rightful possession and inheritance of all those who are Christ. And so I have no, no desire to shake or rob you of your assurance. That's just not my jam. Um, so I wanted to get that out there. Like I don't think that this parable is here. To scare the daylights out of us and make us question whether or not we actually belong to the bridegroom. I actually think it's here for a different reason.  [00:25:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree.  [00:25:40] Watch and Be Ready [00:25:40] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think this may have more in common with like the tears in the wheat parable that we've spoken about before versus trying to promulgate a particular understanding of eschatology. There's no doubt that this is calibrated to the period preceding the perusia. At the same time, the parable is a reminder that describes like the visible professing church on earth as it moves toward that consummation. So this is why I think it is important for us to talk about, well, what do we mean by these 10 virgins? What do we mean about the lamps themselves? What is this saying generally about God's church? And again, him addressing the question of what does it mean for that church to be consummated in his kingdom?  [00:26:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to find the specific passage, but um. We also should not miss the verbal affinity here. Uh, at the end of the parable, when it says truly, I say to you, I do not know you. We should really read this in light of, um, the, um, the statements. You know, I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I was, you know, and you say, Lord, we did these things. He said, away from me. I never knew you. We really should read this parable. I think in light of that passage and that phrasing, I think that's, that's actually the punchline of this  [00:26:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:26:55] Tony Arsenal: Punchline. That's, that's the point. Parable is that last phrase, and then the, the extra parable, the outside of the parable, um, payoff or sort of like explanation that Christ gives is watch. Therefore, for you neither know the day nor the hour. The point is not, um, you may think you're a Christian. You may think you're, you're on top of things, but you actually, you might be totally wrong. And so you better get your stuff together. The point is what, what happens? Or the point is the same thing as I think it's the author of Hebrew is like, today is the day of salvation, right? Like, do not wait to turn to Christ. Do not wait. That's right to trust in Jesus. Do not wait to enter the kingdom of heaven until the last minute. Do not wait because you don't actually know when the end is coming. And I, I read this when I, when it's watch, therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. I read this less in light of, um. Like universal eschatology, uh, every single person that, that Jesus was speaking to in this original audience that he actually delivered this parable to, did not see that, like, did not see the last days. Right. Whatever the last days looks like. And I mean, like, yes, the last days is from the resurrection to the end of the age. So some of them saw those last days. But what I mean is none of these people saw the return of Christ, like the second return of Christ and that the last judgment. So he would, it would be sort of meaningless to be delivering this parable to those people. With only whatever the last things are with only the rapture in mind with only Right, exactly. The great judgment. None of that would make any sense. So I read this more in light of you never know when your day and hour is coming. Not, not necessarily like the day, like the day of the Lord, although that's true. Yes. There will be a generation on earth who the last day, the final judgment is also their last day in terms of their ordinary human life. But I think this is more of a general call to all of us, and especially to those, um, out there who are in the orbits of the church who are exposed to the gospel, um, and have not yet trusted Christ. [00:29:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:29:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is a call to turn to Jesus and to, uh, to, to come into the kingdom of heaven, to be prepared by coming into the kingdom of heaven here. That's, that's the main point of the peril that we have to land on.  [00:29:21] Bridegroom And Virgins [00:29:21] Jesse Schwamb: I agree with you, and I think all of the imagery here points in that direction. So even starting with this image of these 10 virgins, which of course you've been listening to us talk for long enough, or you've read through the Old Testament, you're gonna quickly, and I think cogently see that this is the Old Testament imagery of Israel as the bride or the covenant community. It's also of course, like the Greco Roman custom in which the bridesmaids attended the bride and accompanied the wedding procession when the bride groom arrived to claim his bride. So to your point, what I think is really interesting about this is that we're basically saying that this parable is not speaking of like strangers or enemies, but those who have made a profession of faith. And so even this like idea of the bridegroom who, who's without a question? Christ here, that's a self-identification that's rooted in like John chapter three, where even John the Baptist calls himself merely the friend of the bridegroom and a revelation where you are going already, where the marriage supper of the lamb consummate, consummate redemptive history. [00:30:19] Lamps And Oil Meaning [00:30:19] Jesse Schwamb: So once we get through the idea of we have those whom Jesus is speaking about, and even those who he's speaking to as those who have made some kind of profession, religious or otherwise, to me, where this hinges is in this idea of the lamps or these torches or or burning lamps, which I take to be like this outward profession. And so the question is you have all of them coming with these lamps. Lambs represent this external common to true or false professors alike. But I think to what you are driving at, it's whether within that profession there is a true and actual reliance on Christ himself for righteousness.  [00:30:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, oil, I think the oil is really key here too, right? Oil in the, uh, in the scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament. Um, but also in some places in the New Testament, oil is associated with the Holy Spirit.  [00:31:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes,  [00:31:11] Tony Arsenal: exactly right. So if, if we wanna sort of take the symbolism here, take, take the, the situation sort of as a mixture of, of different kinds of symbols. We have these folks that have all of the outward things necessary to be able to light the lamps. They have the lamps, the wicks are there. Um, they're, they're sort of ready to go. They're, they're ready and waiting for a time. Uh, but what they don't have is they don't have oil, they don't have the Holy Spirit. So yes, we, we need in some senses about false professors, but I do think it's broader than that.  [00:31:43] Salvation Has A Deadline [00:31:43] Tony Arsenal: I think this is, um, again, is a generalized parable about. The, the fact that the hour of salvation, the day of salvation, the opportunity to turn to God, the opportunity to come into God's kingdom is not an indefinite opportunity. It's not going to be out there as a possibility forever. There is a day and an hour and a minute for every single person where that opportunity is no longer available. And of course we're the reformed brotherhood, not the Armenian Brotherhood, right? We're the reformed brotherhood. So yes, God has ordained who will come and who will not. He's ordained the hour and the minute of those who will, and he's ordained that some will never come. But that all operates on God's God's level in God's knowledge. And that's not something we have access to know down here, right? Deuteronomy 29, 29, the sacred things belong to the Lord, but the things that are revealed belong to us and our children forever. And one of the things that's revealed is that God calls us to salvation. He calls us to repent and trust in Jesus. And here in this passage, he is cutting us to do that, to not delay doing that.  [00:32:53] Personal Evangelism Story [00:32:53] Tony Arsenal: I think there are a lot of people, um. I can actually think of a couple really specific examples in when I was in high school. Um, I was, I, I don't do as much personal evangelism as I I did when I was, uh, when I was in high school and younger. I, I don't know for sure what the reason is. Some of it's probably my own cowardice, but I think probably just that's normal, that as you grow and you kind of settle into different kinds of relationships, you have a different context. But I remember a, a friend of mine named Dave, I'm not gonna say his last name, I remember his last name, but I'm not gonna say it, but a friend of mine named David, um, who. All of us were coming to faith, like all, all of our friend group were coming to Faith. There was one of my friends, James was sort of like the first guy who, he was raised in a Christian home and he sort of came to faith in a very real faith, real way. And he sort of brought all of us along with him and sort of one by one we, we sort of like, it was like Domino's falling. And we all came to a genuine, true saving faith kind of all right in a row. And then there was Dave and Dave just didn't like he, he with us. He did all the things we were doing. And I remember having a conversation with him where I was like, what are you waiting for? Like, what's, what's the hold up here? And I didn't have any, again, I didn't have any framework for like what apologetics were, I wasn't trying to make an argument or any sort of like, um, any sort of like persuasion. It was just a real raw like we are all loving this. We're all, we're all so joyful and happy. The lives are changing and we. This is real, Dave, what, what are you waiting for? He never had a real answer. He, he didn't ever make an argument against the faith. He was very clear that he believed that God was real. He believed that God existed, that the sort of the facts of the gospel were true. Like he, he, um, to sort of put like theological language on it, um, he had, he had a ticia and a census, right? Right. He, he acknowledged he knew the true facts of the gospel and he acknowledged the reality that, that those facts were true. He just never actually took the step to trust in Jesus. And I don't know what happened to Dave. Uh, there's another friend of mine named Theo that very similar kind of situation. I don't know what happened to Dave and Theo. I have no idea whether they eventually came to faith or not, but, but it was like, you guys never know when the day in the hours. That's the kind of person that I think this is pointing to.  [00:35:15] Against Rapture Ready Fear [00:35:15] Tony Arsenal: Not necessarily the person within the church, um, who has made some sort of credible profession of faith, but thinks, but like, because like they haven't stopped swearing yet, or because they still have lustful thoughts once in a while. Like I think that's the rapture ready theology is like. You better not hope that like that's the day that a pretty girl walks by and you have a lutful thought. 'cause if Jesus comes back right after that, you're really in trouble. Like those are, those are actually, um, again, this is, this is a caricature of dispensationalism, but it's a caricature that I experienced. It's, it was people who were being characters of themselves. Right? This idea that, look, you better, you better not sin ever. You better not be asleep. And being asleep means sinning. You better not ever sin. Because if you happen to sin right before the rapture, then Jesus is gonna leave you behind. Right? You're not gonna fly up in the clouds if you're not perfectly rapture ready. And like, again, not all dispensationalist are like that. I actually think most dispensationalist these days would probably not fit into that category. Right? But when I was coming to faith in the late nineties and early two thousands, that was the real theology being presented. I don't think that's what this is. This is about a life orientation of preparedness. This is about an entire life. Yes. That is prepared for Christ's second coming or for the hour of our death. And that the only way to be prepared for that is to be happy in Christ, is to be blessed, blessed assurance, like to have your blessed assurance because Jesus is mine. Oh, what a, you know, oh, what a happy delight like that is. The only way to be ready for death, to be prepared for the end is to turn to Jesus. It's not about whether or not you've turned to Jesus and have become perfectly sinless. None of us are like that, right? It's not about, I just got done writing this series of articles on John Piper's affectional theology, affectional Justification, like it's not about perfectly treasuring Christ. There are gonna be times where your emotions do not sync up with what you actually believe. It's not about being perfectly obedient or wanting to be perfectly obedient. It's about trusting Jesus. And there's only one day an hour that that opportunity closes, and you never know when that is, when that day an hour is gonna be. [00:37:26] Wise Versus Foolish [00:37:26] Jesse Schwamb: We know that to be true in this particular parable because of what's written for us in verse two, how Jesus himself bifurcates and labels these two groups. He says five of them were foolish and five were wise. So Christ himself introduces the critical distinction, not of course, with reference to whatever the external practice is, because both of these groups are carrying lamps, both weight, both know the bridegroom is coming, but with an interior character judgment one is literally foolish, which is the same contrast that Christ employs actually in the parable of the two builders at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, where the wise man hears and does, while the foolish man hears, but does not translate hearing into obedient transformation. So I'm with you on this. The terms carry, I think, significant Old Testament fruit because in the all the wisdom literature, wisdom is synonymous with the fear of the Lord, that true knowledge of God, right? And that practical orientation, I think as you were saying, of one's entire life toward God. The fool is not like an intellectual simpleton, but it's a world spiritual category. It's one who lives as though God does not exist or God does not matter, or refuses in the light of incontrovertible evidence to come before God and to submit to him In this way. They are foolish or they are wise. And so again, I like what you're saying. It's not as if like they've just exhibited some kind of quick departure or they've fallen into temptation or sinfulness, but instead, rather, there's something way larger at stake here with respect to a spiritual category. And I think that's really what Jesus is after, as he's bringing these two groups apart from each other, explaining that essentially that they access the same things. They heard the same stuff, they had the same on the outward, at least the same priorities, but the true internal character, the interior character of who they were, was not compatible. These are not the the same kind of person.  [00:39:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:39:21] All Virgins Fall Asleep [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: And this is actually something, um, that I hadn't picked up on before. Right. I think we can get into these ruts when we're reading and understanding, uh, the scripture, especially really familiar passages like this. Um, probably like at some point in the past, someone has taught it to me in this way. I heard a sermon or I heard it at a youth group in a particular way, and I just never really went back. The, the wise virgins also fall asleep.  [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:39:46] Tony Arsenal: Like, like that, that's amazing to me, like Right. I've always heard this passage as though like, falling asleep is the equivalent of spiritual death.  [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:39:55] Tony Arsenal: But the reality is, in this passage, the difference between the wise and the foolish virgins is not that they, one of them stays awake and one of them falls asleep. One, the, the, the difference between the wise and the foolish is that the ones that are wise are prepared for when the bride root clump comes, even though they fell asleep and, and actually, uh, they're, they're shown to be even more wise because they all fell asleep. Yes. Right. If they hadn't fallen asleep, then the foolish ones probably would've had time to go get more. But the, the wise virgins in this, uh. And not only were they wise in terms of like they had the stuff they needed, they were ready to go, but so wise that in fact their wisdom overcame sort of this happenstance that they were in a state of, of preparedness being asleep when the comes is a state of Unpreparedness, but they have able to compensate for the ready in every other area. And I think this also kind of like mitigates away away from the idea of like the, um. The, the emphasis of the parable here, the readiness of the par of the virgins is not based on the wakefulness of the virgins, right? Yes. The virgins are ready because they have the supplies they need. Right. They're not Exactly, they're not exactly, they're not un 'cause they fell asleep. They're ready because they've, they've prepared by purchasing the supplies they need, by having the supplies they need when the breadroom comes. That's true. Whether they fall asleep or not. So I think like this whole parable needs to sort of like be reoriented in reference to the way a lot of us have, A lot of us have been taught and understood this parable. I was always taught that the, the foolish virgins were foolish because they fell asleep. Yeah, that's probably partially true in that it's foolish to fall asleep when you're waiting for something, but that can't be the only thing that makes them foolish. 'cause it doesn't make the other virgins foolish. [00:41:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly.  [00:41:52] Oil As Saving Grace [00:41:52] Jesse Schwamb: And that's why it's so interesting that Jesus basically doubles down or elaborates in verses three and four by saying for when the foolish took their lamps. They took no oil with them. Yeah, but the wises took flasks of oil with their lambs. I think it's actually, as you're, I think leading us into like the theological height of this whole thing, the foolish virgins took their lambs, but no oil. The wise took lambs and extra oil in vessels. And of course the lambs cannot burn without oil in the same way. I think what we're led to believe here is profession without grace has no sustaining power. So I know like throughout church history, this idea of the oil has been interpreted in various ways, in various forms. I think there's a lot of unification though on the point that the oil is more or less like a representation of the grace of the Holy Spirit. That like specific indwelling regenerating, sanctifying presence of the spirit imparted in effectual calling and genuine conversion. And that's why I think this has a lot in common with both like the tears and the wheat parable. But also what you've been saying about the time that is appointed onto a man to die, either for Christ to return or just for you and I to die. And so this understanding, I think is consistent with the Old Testament symbolic use of, like you said before, anointing oil is a sign of the spirit's presence. Not by might nor by power, but by my spirit. And so I'm seeing here like this oil is, I mean, is it going too far to say almost like a saving grace? It's, it's not common grace, it's not the gifts of the spirit, which the reprobate may possess, but I think we're, we're seeing here like that special sanctifying preserving grace, which is inseparable from true election and calling. [00:43:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think that's spot on. While you were talking, I was actually just looking up, uh, what Calvin has to say on this. I, I think it's funny because I constantly am saying things that I feel like I'm discovering for myself in real time. But if I actually just took the, a little bit of time to read some of our great sources a little more carefully, I would run into them. This is what he says. He says on, uh, verse five, he says, some interpret this slumbering in a bad sense as if believers along with others abandon themselves sloth. And they were, they were asleep amidst the vanities of the world. This is all together inconsistent with the intention of Christ as structure of the parable. [00:44:05] Slow Down And Read [00:44:05] Tony Arsenal: Like I think it's clear now here as we're working through this and this, and this is the main benefit, um, of taking time to just walk through the parables, any, any text of scripture, but the parables is what we're looking at. Taking time to just actually slow down and read them. I didn't intend to get to like a whole discussion about Bible reading plans, but the typical, I'm gonna read the Bible through, uh, the entire Bible in a year that typically has you reading three to five chapters a day is the average. That's probably too much if you want to be reading for understanding. And there is, there's definitely value. I've, I've commented in the past, there's huge value in reading large tracks of scripture all at the same time. Like if you wanna sit down over 10 chapters of Scripture day and you've got the time and the energy and the discipline to do it, then more power to you. But I think it's not realistic to think you're gonna sit down and read 10 chapters of scripture and have good comprehension and retention of the 10 chapters that you read. This is a really good example of that. If you sit down and you read three chapters, you're gonna be reading this, you're gonna be reading, uh, another parable. The parable of the talents you are gonna be reading. You know, the all of it discourse all at the same time, all in one sitting. Um, it's not until just now when I slowed down to really look at these passages, verse by verse individually and take an hour to discuss 13 verses with my brother-in-law in front of a microphone, right? Then I realized all of the virgins fall asleep. Like that's the kind of stuff that you really only, um, you only overcome. The assumed teaching that you heard when you were in high school, 15, you know, 15, 20 years ago at a summer camp. You really only overcome that when you slow down enough to read things and actually comprehend them. So that's not much of a commentary on the passage, but it is something that I'm learning as we do these parable studies. Just slow down, slow down and read them, read them multiple times, read it over and over again. Um, it is totally fine. The, this is the last, uh, Bible reading soapbox thing I'll say tonight. Um, I think like, because. Of the influence of like expository preaching and like wanting to read things in, in context, and all of those things are good. I think there is this tendency to think that if you sit down and just read a very short portion of scripture, that you're kind of automatically taking that out of context. I don't think that's the case. Like it's totally fine to sit down in the morning and go, you know what? I've got, I've got 10 minutes, I've got five minutes. I've got two minutes before the kids are up. I've got two minutes before the bus stop, you know, before the bus gets here. I'm standing at the bus stop. I've got 30 seconds before the coffee's done. It's totally fine to open your Bible app. And read two or three verses of scripture, that's a totally fine thing to do. It's totally fine because you've got 10 minutes before the kids got up. Oh, and by the way, you've gotta unload the dishwasher before they do. Totally fine to sit down and go, I've got time to read 13 verses of scripture today. So that's what I'm gonna get done. Um, and, and then just think about those things like meditate on those scriptures all day. I just think there's a lot of values to that and that's maybe that's my takeaway from this episode. I know like that's not a takeaway directly related to this passage. That's good. But I think we can oftentimes. Have and understand that isn't right because we've been taught it and we don't ever have the time or space in our life to like realize that what we were taught is maybe exactly right. This is like something so obvious on the surface of the text. It didn't even take any real thought. It just took slowing down and actually reading the words  [00:47:45] Jesse Schwamb: right. It's also a good reminder, like we said from the beginning, that our goal here shouldn't be to torture every detail, to like press it for some kind of allegorical significance.  [00:47:55] Tony Arsenal: Yes.  [00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: But to take it on the face and to understand in context what's being said. And by context I just mean the context of the story. Of the accounts of the drama that's unfolding. And it is pretty remarkable that all 10 virgins sleep, that maybe even as you start with the details might not be your impression that that was gonna be, was gonna be the difference here, but both the wises and the foolish alike fall asleep. So to me, the parable is not condemning sleep per se, but I think it's the absence of oil which the sleep merely reveals, right? That's the critical detail here. And so Jesus delivers that to us and that's why it's, I think, important to think about these, these variables about what the oil represents and the context in which they're tested with their preparedness. But it's not because like they had it almost times you get the impression, it's like what we're saying here is the wise had more stamina, that they were the ones that were just willing to tough it out, and they knew the bridegroom was coming. And so as a result of that, they decided that they were going to ensure that they stayed awake, even if they had the drink, a couple of extra cups of coffee, just to make sure that was the case. But really their sleepiness, which they both have to endure, is the very context in which proves that they do are not prepared by having sufficient oil, not that they're unprepared by having sufficient energy or stamina.  [00:49:18] Prepared Despite Fatigue [00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Well, with all.  [00:49:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, that's a good takeaway too, is, is we all, um, we all will succumb to temptation in this life,  [00:49:32] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:49:33] Tony Arsenal: Right. Every single one of us. And even if we think of sleeping in this negative sense, which I think we probably need to move away from it, even if we do, I think the point that you're making is really good, for instance, between the foolish and the wises is not their ability to stay awake. So I do think that, I do think there's a slightly negative connotation to drowsy and slept here. Like I think that, I think it's intended to show some level of fatigue. Fatigue, maybe not like a moral right, maybe not a moral, uh, negativity, but there's a fatigue. There's something that overcomes both wise and foolish virgins in this parable. Fatigue and drowsiness overcomes them and they sleep. And it's because the bridegroom was delayed, right? We wanna talk about eschatology, right? This is probably also more a commentary on the church as a whole. The church becomes drowsy and sleeps right, and then there's the foolish and the wise. The foolish are the ones who are not prepared even though they are drowsy and sleep. And then there's the wise who are foolish, or the wises who are prepared and are drowsy and sleep. But E, either way, if we think of drowsy and sleep, even in moral negative terms, right? All of us will succumb to temptation. All of us will succumb to sin in this life. I would even go so far as to say all of us sin in every moment of our life in that we never love God. Truly. Yes. With our full hearts and souls. You got that right soul the way that we're, we're commanded to. Right. Right. So all of us become drowsy and sleep. The difference is not in those who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and tape their eyelids open so that they don't fall asleep. Right. I don't, I don't know if you ever like had trouble staying awake in school, but I used to, like I used to sit at my desk with my pencil under my chin. Oh my Lord. So if I started to fall asleep, it would like jab me and I would wake up so I could stay awake in school. Oh. It's not about like gimmicks to stay awake.  [00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right, right.  [00:51:21] Tony Arsenal: It's about the fact that those of us who have trusted Christ. Have received the oil. Yes. So even when we sleep, yes. Even when we are drowsy, even when we are overcome by the fatigue that prevents us from, uh, from resisting sin. Right. Even when that happens, we still have the oil. We still have the grace of the Holy Spirit. We still have the empowering presence and the, the, the justifying reality of Christ's death For us, in my mind as I read this parable, that really is what it is, right? Get the oil, go get the stinking oil now, because you never know when the day or hour is coming. Mm-hmm. Whether that's the day or the hour that you fall asleep and you're not prepared, or whether that's the day or the hour that the bridegroom was, even if you're awake. That's the other element of this. Even if the virgins had stayed awake, they didn't have the oil.  [00:52:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:52:12] Tony Arsenal: So it it's not as though, it's not as though had they stayed awake, they would've had time to go get the oil and come back. They, they wake up right away. Like there's nothing in the parable that's like, oh, it took 'em a little while to get up. So that's why they didn't have time to get the oil. They, they didn't have time to get the oil. 'cause there wasn't time to get the oil  [00:52:31] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:52:32] Tony Arsenal: So the only way you're going to be properly prepared when the bridegroom comes is if you already have the oil and you're already ready to go. Regardless of whether you fall asleep or not.  [00:52:42] Gospel Call Get Oil [00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think, I think we have to kind of close this with like a gospel, a gospel call here. Like we don't do this very often on the show, and I think the vast majority of our show are professed, regenerate Christians. I don't, I don't know anyone who listens to the show that is outwardly not a Christian, but I think this is a time for us to say, listen, if you are hearing the sound of my voice, be diligent to make your calling an election. Sure. And that both takes the form of what Peter talks about, where he talks about growing in graces and walking in, walking in the qualities of holiness and righteousness that our, our, our in Christ. But it also takes the form of just trusting in Jesus.  [00:53:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:53:21] Tony Arsenal: Right. If you are a person who is not confident that you have trusted in Jesus. Then you, you need to do that. You need to go and do that. And, and if you don't know what that means, look, I'm just some dude on the internet. By the time you hear this, I'm already, I'm already like seven and a half days into the future from when you hear this, like, I'm already gone. The me that's talking to you doesn't even exist anymore. But the pastor down the road, or your friend who's a Christian who shared this show with you, that person exists right now in your life, right? So go talk to them, find out what the gospel is, and you, you take care of getting that oil and you don't delay,  [00:53:57] Jesse Schwamb: right? Oh, you're right.  [00:53:58] Midnight Cry Urgency [00:53:58] Jesse Schwamb: All of that sets up what we see in verse six, this idea of the midnight Cry, which is of course where Petro draws the title for its own song. But this idea that midnight is that darkest hour, it's the hour of deepest sleep and greatest surprise, it really does capture, at least in this parable, the unexpectedness of like that second coming. It's a theme that's central, I think, to a lot of Matthew and this cry is it's sudden, it's arresting, it wakes all of the virgins. None of them remained asleep after this time. And I think you summarized really well how even like historically reformed expositions understood that midnight cry. It could be. And I say equally as opportunistic with the idea that it's the actual cry of Christ's angels as a return or as I think what you're pressing us with right now, which is important, is it's the voice of God and death. Since for everybody, each individual death really functions as the personal midnight that ends the time of preparation. And so every man's death to him is the coming of Christ. That's when our state is irrevocably fixed. And so I think it's important for us to understand there's an urgency here. This is an urgency of evangelism and self-examination because the midnight cry may come at any moment. It could come in youth, the middle age and old age, and health and sickness and wellness. The question is not when it will come, but whether when it does, you will be found with oil in your vessel. And so you're right. Maybe that's the best place for us to end it is to to stop and say, you ought to consider that. We all ought to consider that. That is the message that's put before us. That's why this thing is so penetrating and solemn, even though it seems a kind of, just a dramatic account of, well, don't get caught being sleepy. That's not the point. It's literally. The, the bridegroom's own delay that sets up all of this and highlights again, what is actually a lacking. And that is the grace of God, the give the deliverance of, uh, faith to his children that results in that effectual calling. So your rights, and maybe I'll go back to my initial starting point, which was you better check your midnight oil.  [00:56:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.  [00:56:07] Calvin Buy By Faith [00:56:07] Tony Arsenal: Lemme close with these words from Calvin here on this, uh, this verse he's commenting on, uh. Around verse nine and he says, um, the word buy does not at all, imply that a price has been given as appears clearly from the passage in idea where the Lord, while he invites us to buy demands, no price, but informs us that he is wine and milk in abundance to be fortuitously bestowed. There is no other way of obtaining it, therefore, but to receive by faith what is offered to us. So the parable is saying to go and buy the oil, but the only way to buy the oil is to trust in Christ and receive the oil from him. There's no cost, there's no fee. There's no merit that you contribute that gives us this. Um, there's nothing that you do to earn, to, to buy the oil to, to obtain a. Well, Christ bestows it on you by faith. You simply have to receive it. And point of the parable, and I'll just close with this phrase, the point of the bear parable is that you do not know the day or the, so I think this is a great, uh, um, this is a great parable for us to meditate on, for us to ruminate on. Um, I know I'm gonna think about it, not because I, I fear, I'm fearful for my salvation, but I do think. Maybe this is something we can chat a little bit about next week, and, and actually maybe this is why these two are juxtaposed.  [00:57:34] Evangelism And Next Steps [00:57:34] Tony Arsenal: Um, maybe we need to think about a little bit of what this says for the Christian for evangelism, right? Yes. Um, if, if we do not know the day or the hour and, and there is this midnight call coming for people, then maybe we need to tell them, maybe we need to tell them that they do not know when the day or the hour is. So I think this is great and I'm excited to get into the next parable and I'm excited to keep moving. We've made this pivot into some of the eschatological parables of Christ, which is great. It's a, it's a different, sort of a different register of teaching than we've seen from him in, in the parable series so far, which is exciting. Uh, so I'm really stoked to keep going.  [00:58:08] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. And again, come hang out with us in the telegram chat in particular, and chat about this with us. I think that that's where so much good conversation happens. It's not, of course, the only place and nor should it be where we process this and live life together, but it is one place where we can do that and get to know other brothers and sisters. I, I think, Tony, you've often challenged me and our listeners by saying, take this episode and go have your own conversation with your spouses. Yeah. With your parents, with your loved ones. And now more than ever. I think maybe the setup for our next conversation is, how do we understand the urgency of evangelism in light of what we've learned here? Because this grace in this message is for the Christian. And in that way we find, I think, great assurance in this parable, while at the same time delivering the stack reality of that midnight hour in that cry coming. And again, our states being. Fixed at that moment where there's no more preparation that can take place. And there is so much right now that's being preached in churches across the world that will tell you that really you don't need to worry about this. That even what Christ is saying here is not entirely accurate. That somehow, even though it may be a pointed once for man to die, that after that point there is some remedial way back into salvation. And what we find here, what Christ is telling us is that is simply not true. It stands in direct opposition to what our Lord and Savior is teaching us here. And so that makes it, I think, all the more urgent to understand that there is an emergency in our world and that is that there are those perishing without Christ. And so we ought to make that a priority to deliver to them the gospel that we ourselves have often also received. And the one that God, through his calling and through the affectual work of the Holy Spirit, has made real and effectual to us.  [00:59:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:59:56] Wrap Up And Teaser [00:59:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, that's as good a place for us to push pause. We are done with this parable. We got through it in a week, which is pretty, uh, pretty miraculous. I think it happens. Um, but we're not done with the parables and we're not even really done with this teaching of Christ, because the next verse starts with four. So we know that it's a continuation of, uh, of what, uh, not for the number for FOR. What a teaser. What a teaser. We know this is a continuation of, of this teaching. So, Jesse, until then, until next time, honor everyone.  [01:00:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 

In this profound exploration of Matthew 22:1-14, we examine Jesus's parable of the wedding feast—one of the most theologically dense teachings in Scripture. This parable reveals the magnificent scope of God's gospel invitation extended to all humanity, the tragic reality of human rejection, and the sovereign grace that ensures God's purposes will not be thwarted. Through the imagery of a royal wedding banquet, Jesus addresses the religious leaders who challenged His authority while simultaneously unveiling timeless truths about salvation, election, and the nature of the Church. This episode unpacks the parable's layers of meaning, from the universal call of the gospel to the particular grace of election, equipping believers to understand both the urgency and the sovereignty of God's redemptive work. Key Takeaways The Universal Gospel Call Is Genuine and Urgent: God's invitation to salvation goes out indiscriminately to all people, regardless of ethnicity, social status, or moral condition. This external call is sincere, well-meant, and accompanied by genuine offers of grace. Human Rejection Is Willful and Culpable: The parable demonstrates that humanity's refusal of God's invitation is not due to insufficient information but to volitional rebellion. This rejection often progresses from indifference to active hostility against God and His messengers. God's Sovereign Purposes Cannot Be Frustrated: Despite widespread rejection, the wedding hall will be filled. God's redemptive plan includes the expansion of His covenant community beyond ethnic Israel to include Gentiles from every nation. The Wedding Garment Represents Imputed Righteousness: The garment required for the feast symbolizes the righteousness of Christ, received by faith alone, not earned through human effort. This illustrates the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. The Visible Church Contains Both Genuine and False Believers: The parable warns that not all who hear the gospel and enter the visible church possess true saving faith, distinguishing between the external call and the internal, effectual work of the Spirit. Eternal Punishment Is Real and Conscious: The parable's conclusion soberly affirms the doctrine of eternal, conscious punishment for those who reject Christ, depicted as "outer darkness" with "weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen": This foundational statement maintains the biblical tension between the universal external call of the gospel and the particular, effectual call of God that sovereignly draws the elect to salvation. Key Concepts The Nature of the Gospel Call: External and Effectual Reformed theology has carefully distinguished between two aspects of God's call. The external or general call is the sincere proclamation of the gospel to all without distinction, inviting everyone to faith and repentance. This call is genuine on God's part—He truly offers salvation to all who hear. However, due to total depravity, the natural person will not respond to this call on their own. The internal or effectual call is the sovereign, irresistible work of the Holy Spirit by which the elect are regenerated, have their wills renewed, and are infallibly brought to saving faith. This distinction preserves both human responsibility (we are culpable for rejecting a genuine offer) and divine sovereignty (God alone saves by His grace). The parable beautifully illustrates both realities: servants genuinely invite all they find on the highways, yet the King ultimately determines who is properly clothed for the feast. The Wedding Garment and Justification by Faith Alone The wedding garment represents one of the parable's most critical theological elements. In ancient Near Eastern culture, hosts often provided garments for wedding guests, making the lack of proper attire inexcusable. Theologically, this garment symbolizes the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers—a righteousness not produced by human effort but received through faith alone. This directly confronts any notion of works-righteousness or the idea that we can stand before God based on our own moral achievements, religious observances, or church membership. The man without the garment represents those who presume to approach God on the basis of their own righteousness rather than Christ's alien righteousness. His speechlessness before judgment illustrates that on the last day, no one will successfully argue their case on grounds of personal merit. This underscores the Reformation principle of sola gratia and sola fide—salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, clothing us in a righteousness that is entirely Christ's. The Tension Between Universal Call and Particular Election The parable's conclusion—"many are called, but few are chosen"—encapsulates one of theology's profound mysteries. This statement places two realities side by side without resolving the tension philosophically. The invitation truly goes to all (universal call), yet only some respond savingly (particular election). Reformed theology maintains this biblical tension rather than collapsing it in either direction. We don't limit the external call only to the elect (hyper-Calvinism), nor do we make the internal call dependent solely on human decision (Arminianism). Instead, we affirm that the gospel invitation is genuinely universal while the effectual drawing is sovereignly particular. This means Christians can proclaim unreservedly, "Christ has died for you" to any person, knowing the offer is sincere, while simultaneously trusting that God will infallibly save all His elect through that proclamation. Memorable Quotes "The most scandalous and tragic thing that could happen at a wedding or a wedding banquet is that nobody shows up. The guests don't come. Or in fact, not only do they not come, they don't want to come—they burn the invitations." "You don't bring anything to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary." "Many a man in this world will silence his own conscience with many a fair excuse. But in that day, there will be no excuse, no plea, no delay." - William Perkins Full Episode Transcript [00:00:58] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 493 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where we will talk about every single parable. Hey, brothers and sisters. So when was the last time that you were at a wedding? I think weddings are one of the most glorious of all kinds of human events and celebrations, and I think the solemness of the vows and the promises that are exchanged between a man and a woman in marriage in that ceremony, or maybe only equaled by the joy of those same vows and promises. And of course, the whole point of coming together to celebrate a, a wedding. Is to make that joy consummate and complete by having others participate in it. The seeing the union of a man and a woman become one, the excitement of that love expressed in promise and commitment. It's an incredible thing. And I was thinking about this recently because our wedding invitation is actually framed in, in our living room because one of the guests that we invited gave that to us as a really thoughtful gift. And so our wedding ceremony and the party that followed, and it was a. Amazing and awesome party, especially thanks to my in-laws and my parents who generously made sure that that was possible was an exceptional event that we still talk about all the time. Actually, you know, in my wedding when we had this grand kind of wedding banquet afterwards, we had a friend of ours who actually performed the song that we danced to on grand piano and sang for us, which is amazing. We had a DJ in one room and we had a live jazz band in another, and I specifically recall. That when we left late in the evening, my new wife and I, that there were still people on the dance floor having a good time. And I thought, this is the way it's supposed to be. I mean, this is a wedding. This is a wedding banquet. [00:02:58] Why No One Comes [00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: And so it also made me think recently, especially as we find ourselves in Matthew chapter 22, continuing to look at all these incredible parables that Jesus gives to us, that perhaps the most scandalous and tragic thing that could happen at a wedding or a wedding banquet is that nobody shows up. The guests don't come. Or in fact, like not only do they not come, they don't want to come, they burn the invitations. They wanna have nothing to do with the celebration or the ceremony itself. And so Jesus has been doing all of this teaching that we've been tracking, and he's been responding to these leaders in the Jewish community, the people we call the Pharisees and the scribes who have challenged his authority. And he's been progressing in the way that he's almost ratcheting up the language that he's using, the indictments that he's bringing to them. And now he's about to bring in weddings and specifically the wedding banquet. And that is where we're gonna find ourselves in a Matthew Chapter 22. Now, by the way, I should also mention that because my wife is super popular lady and super lovable. We had a pretty large wedding. I think we had over 200 guests, and so. Because my father-in-law is retired military, we were actually able to have our whole wedding banquet, our whole celebration and party on a local army base. But because of that, it meant that before you could actually get onto the base, all of our guests. Had to be searched. So it's nothing like, you know, basically just shaken down your wedding guests before they show up. So that also was super fun.  [00:04:32] Reading Matthew 22 [00:04:32] Jesse Schwamb: But let's go to the scriptures, everybody. So here's Matthew chapter 22. Uh, listen to this as we take a look at what Jesus has to say and why he brings in weddings. Actually, it might be helpful to say or to give you something, rather to listen to or listen for before you even hear me read the scriptures because. This parable of this wedding banquet, it is definitely one of the most theologically dense parables in the entire synaptic tradition. It is set like we've been saying within the final week of Jesus' ministry in Jerusalem, and it's embedded in the sequence of confrontational exchanges that he's having with the Jewish leadership because they have challenged his authority. And so as you listen to this being read, I want you to clue in, key in as they say to a couple of things. See if you can find the, like the Christological proclamation in this. There's a, a covenantal poll. I think there's some sociological instruction and there's an eschatological warning. All of this happens as is Jesus's jam in the short span of several verses where he illuminates all of these principles of the sovereign grace of God and the summons of the gospel. Total depravity and culpability of this, these rebellious people who refuse the call, the historical judgment of God upon the covenant breaking Israel. And then of course, the subsequent expansion of that covenant into the community include to include the Gentiles. All of this is happening. In this parable, and so I want you just to listen for that as we together read. Or in my case, I guess I just read, especially if you're driving, do not read the parable that begins in the first part of Matthew chapter 22. Here's the word of God. And Jesus answered and spoke to them again in parables saying The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and he sent out his slaves to call those who had been called to the wedding feast and they were unwilling to come again. He sent out other slaves saying, tell those who have been called. Behold. I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fon livestock are all butchered and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast. But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his farm, another to his business, and the rest seized the slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, the wedding is ready, but those who were called were not worthy. Go, therefore, to the main highways and as many as you find there, call to the wedding feast. And those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who is not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes? And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, bind him hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for many are called, but few are chosen.  [00:07:50] Parable Context [00:07:50] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. So what an incredible. Story, what an incredible foundation or rubric or context in which so many rich theological concepts and pastoral concepts, doctrinal concepts are given to us from Jesus. And you'll notice that of course, chronologically here, this parable is following the parable of the two sons and the parable of the wicked tenants. Those are the vine growers that we were talking about over the last several episodes. And this one rounds everything out. It forms like a triptych of rejection parables directed against these chief priests and the Pharisees who keep coming after Jesus and his authority. And Matthew signals this kind of escalating tension. The Jewish leaders are now explicitly seeking to arrest Jesus. And Jesus responds not by treating their, not by retreating, of course, but by intensifying his indictment in this parabolic form. And here's where we arrive in Matthew 22. It's interesting to me, of course, that this is the approach that Jesus takes. He has already conveyed these two great stories, and at the end of the last one, Tony and I spoke about how this was where at least Matthew explains to us very directly that the, the Pharisees and the scribes, they understood, they discerned that Jesus was speaking about them, and yet Jesus says, I'm not done yet. I've got one more. And this is the culmination of all the things that he's been saying. And it starts again in verse one with Jesus saying, and again, he spoke to them in a parable. You know, it signals that the parable itself is still a reply. Not to a verbal question at this immediate moment, but to this ongoing posture of rejection exhibited by the religious leaders. You notice that what Matthew says here is very, I think, theologically significant in light of where Jesus explains that the parables both reveal and they conceal their instruments of divine judgment upon heart and hearts, even as they illuminate those with ears to hear. This is why I think it's just so important that as Christians. Even as we study God's word, as we participate in it, so to speak, as we let it read us, that we come with this posture of prayer, that we desperately need God's Holy, holy, holy Spirit to illuminate for us what the scriptures say, to lead us into the paths of righteousness and judgment, which are present in the scriptures, so that we may understand them with these spirit-filled eyes, with a spirit enabled brain with ears that have been unstopped by the spirit. So these parables are the mode by which Christ simultaneously honors and judges his audience. He shows indirectly what it would've been of no use to state plainly. And so the parable form itself is really part of the message here. I think that's something hopefully you picked up as we've been processing them all together, that Jesus opponents cannot arrest what they cannot fully comprehend, yet their incomprehension is itself their condemnation, right? This is, this is the mystery. Of the gospel of what God does, where there is this outward and full unbiased external call, and yet there is something that is efficacious by the power of the Holy Spirit for those whom God has chosen and called to himself so reformed to eus. Are attentive to the authorial intent in historical situatedness of each thing that Jesus says. That's one of the things I think is great about the way in which we kind of have organized our theological perspective and these parables function as a prophetic oracle of judgment. And certainly that's like in an Old Testament accent. I mean, that's the Old Testament jam. It's an Old Testament lawsuit kind of John. It's like law and order. If law and order were Moses, were doing it right. So notice that again, as Tony and I've said so many times before, what I kind of always find so phenomenal about these parables is that often we think of parables as having the main object of being a noun of some kind. It's a person, it's a place. It's a thing that is sometimes the case, but more often than not, it's one of those nouns associated with a verb.  [00:11:59] Kingdom And The King [00:11:59] Jesse Schwamb: And so we get that in verse two. The kingdom of heaven may be compared to what? To a king who gave a wedding banquet for his son. And so it implies that the kingdom is being revealed and likened in a definitive act. We got verbs, loved ones. This is the classic. The ultimate, God does all the verbs because you're gonna hear her over and over again. God is going out. God is giving. God is seeking. God is going after, and these verbs are really the center of the parable itself. It's not just that it's the wedding banquet as maybe the title in your scripture gives you, but it's more about this giving of this event and it's preparing of this grand feast. And so the recurrence of this allegory seemed, I think, pretty straightforward to us. The the king is God, the Father, the Son is Christ, and the wedding banquet, which by the way in the Greek here is plural, is really emphasizing that it's a totality of an occasion. This is the Messianic feast. This is the eschatological consummation of the Covenant of Grace. And that image imagery draws like so deep from this Old Testament well and background of God as the husband and the bridegroom of Israel. Again, how lovely and amazing for Jesus and his thorough knowledge of the scriptures to draw in something that the audience would've been like, yes, I know what you're talking about. I'm totally down with that. And so the son's wedding is therefore not some kind of like incidental entertainment. It is the central event of all history, the installation of the Messianic king and the gathering of his bride. And of course, the people hearing this would've immediately gravitated toward that. I think they would've leaned in maybe even like smiled or smirked at one another, knowing that this was now all that veiled. What Christ was drawing on here was the classic presentation. Of the family of God represented in the children of Israel itself, being drawn back into consummate harmony with God the Father, where there was peace and unitedness, and a celebration of this fact that all things were now made and brought together, that God was restoring and bringing all those back to himself in his true and true kingdom that could not be thwarted. So the fact that the king gives the banquet, prepares it, sends servants, selects the guests, underscores this incredible modernistic character of salvation. I think it's impossible to miss here that God is literally doing all the verbs. The initiative at every point is divine. There's no hint here of synergism. The guests do not arrange their own invitations, literally. And so that's why in verse three, we see God, he sending out his servants. And of course that's a familiar theme. It should be to us. If you've been tracking with us the last several parables we've been speaking of because the servants represent the prophets of the Old Testament and subsequently the apostles and the ministers of the word. The invitation had already gone out to quote those who were invited. So it's this perfect passive parable in the Greek, it's, it's indicating a prior and standing invitation. This is the external or general call of the gospel going out through the preaching of the word. And notice that there is always a response. Even here, Jesus moves directly and quickly to here's what the response was. In other words, as the scripture has told us that God's word never goes out in returns void, there's always, as it were, a response here, that's illustrated for us very directly because the response is not so good.  [00:15:32] Invitation Refused [00:15:32] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is what would, this is horrible like wedding etiquette. They were not willing to come. And this verb I think is critical because it's volitional refusal. It's not mere ignorance. And reformed theology is insistent here against any kind of constellation that makes man's rejection of the gospel. A matter of insufficient information or circumstances we know better, right? We as people should know that we as Christians who have been changed, know that the natural man here is not natural, merely because he lacks the certain kind of information as if he could be restored or regenerated or reformed if we just knew more things. The will is in bondage to sin. And so as the Westminster Confession, faith says, man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation. This is classic Jonathan Edwards, like, you don't bring anything to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary. For some reason in my head, I said that with kind of a, a weird, almost like southern attitude, which I did not mean to convey. But the point is that this refusal is total, it's willing, it's culpable, it's damnable, it's precisely that, which makes it all the more grievous. The invitation is genuine, the refusal is genuine, and the guilt here is entirely real. So the invited in verse three, represent all of Israel. I, I would say like particularly the leaders here, Tony and I have been talking about the responsibility of these, these leaders in particular to, of course, lead Shepherd, grow these people in faith and a love toward God in a way that is toward freedom and now toward more conviction around extraneous rules or heavy burdens that they set up for them that they cannot perform. And so we have these leaders who had received the covenantal promises and the prophetic witness. I mean, that's like classic Romans nine. The rejection of the servants echoes the pattern of prophetic persecution throughout all of Israel's history. So this is sad stuff. It's a sad beginning to have this grand wedding feast prepared by this king for his son set in motion with the invitations already gone out. And essentially all of those who have been invited have Ally refused.  [00:17:49] Feast Is Ready [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: But what's so incredible about God and his loving kindness is still represented here in verse four. The king does not relent after the first refusal, which is remarkable. I mean, this is, again, going back to our proper understanding that we love because God first loved us. That love always leads to giving. And so therefore, God so loved the world that he gave his only son. And when did he give his son? At the fullness of time when we were still at enmity, when we were enemies with him still, he sent his son for us and he sends, therefore a second embassy with an even more urgent and elaborate message that he gives them. He puts into their mouth. And the feast, again, is not merely planned. It's prepared. It's ready. The oxen and fat and calves are images of this lavish like sacrificial celebration. Everything's all slaughtered. Everything is ready to go. Now, I don't know the last time you've been to like an epic feast. I do mean like epic over the top feast. I want you to look up something for me. When you have a chance, look up, just go to your browser of choice and type in shady maples smorgasbord. Now, I don't know if you know what a smorgasbord is, but it's like a, I guess it's like a buffet, but like if you took a buffet and multiply it by a million and then only serve like rich, decadent food and more food than you could possibly really imagine and close to where I live, there's a very famous Amish style. Buffet called Shady Maple Smoker Sport. Just go look it up. 'cause it's gonna be possible for you to describe, but all I can say to you is this isn't just like your standard buffet, it's not just like a potluck where it's like, Hey, we got ham. And, um, we've got some salads and, uh, we've got that, uh, what's that? That weird stuff. You can I, the ambrosia, like we, we've got your hydrox cookies for dessert. This is the last time I was there and uh, actually I was there with my parents and my wife and they treated us. And because this was at a part of my life where my gallbladder was trying to attack me and kill me, I remember just being so ill while I was there feeling so ill, and yet just being so disappointed and bummed out that I couldn't eat all this glorious food because there was filet mignon and lobsters. And shrimp and fish and ham like glazed ham and like carving stations. And then for desserts there was like custards and pies and ice cream and cookies and whoopee pies. And it was this over the top celebration of food. And you couldn't help but just feel like, wow, this thing that we're doing right now is like incredible. I've also, I don't think ever seen my father sample so many different desserts because it was special. This was a, a lavish and incredible celebration for us, and it was prepared, it was ready to go. And we find the same thing here. And so the second sending corresponds to this ministry of the Apostles and the early churches proclamation to Israel. The urgency of the messages come now. It reflects this eschatological pressure of the gospel. A good kind of pressure as if like there's a tea kettle on the stove and it's heating up, and now it's starting to whistle and then to boil over. The kingdom has arrived. Loved ones, the feast is set, delay is inexcusable, and, and so the language of readiness, I think is this glorious language of the gospel. The atonement has accomplished. Christ has been crucified, risen, and exalted, and the feast of salvation is prepared. And what I love is that the reformed tradition consistently insists on the sufficiency of Christ's work for all and the genuine freeness of that gospel offer. I like this is what I usually go back to, is that the cannons of dort affirm this in this way. This is the quote. The promise of the gospel is that whosoever believes in Christ, crucified shall not perish, but of everlasting life. This promise together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and proclaimed to all the nations. The invitation is genuine and urgent. The feast is truly ready. [00:22:01] Mission To All [00:22:01] Jesse Schwamb: The church that I attend is part of the Christian Missionary Alliance denomination, and one of the many things I love about my church is that outward and continual focus on this very thing. That the invitation is genuine. It is urgent, and the feast is truly ready, and it is for all peoples. This freeness to, as we talked about before, scatter the seed of the gospel message unreservedly and without bias to all, all in your sphere of influence. All nations, all people, all tongues, all tribe. And my church is very serious about this. In fact, one of the things our pastor loves to do is oftentimes when he's giving it this kind of proclamation, in fact, just this Lord's day, he was speaking from Matthew 28 and about the Great Commission and the essential nature of that great commission is every Christian's promise to participate in that. It is something you and I are commissioned for and we ought to regularly evaluate our, what our prayers look like. What our finances look like and what our time looks like with respect to whether we are taking seriously that commission, which God has given to us. And so in reminding us of that very fact, one of the things he'll often say from the pulpit is he'll ask out to the congregation, he'll say, what is our middle name? And everybody will respond, missionary. And, and while it's a little bit trite, it reminds us that as part of like the essential ethos in DNA of who we are as Christians, and in fact in this particular year. One of the themes that the whole Christian Missionary Alliance nomination has been focusing on is all of Jesus for All the World takes all of us. I love that all of Jesus for all the world takes all of us. And so we have embedded in this parable here, so much of this intentionality of the gospel, of going out for all people, making this, this message and this mission available. Going out and speaking and preaching and witnessing and testifying of how great God is and what he has done in setting and preparing this gospel message for all people. But in verse five, we find out that even still with all of this, they paid no attention. They went off one to his farm and another to his business. In other words, the word here suggests this kind of contemptuous indifference rather than this active hatred that that actually comes a little bit later. But worldly affairs, a farm, some converse. All this displaces the invitation. And these are not wicked activities, of course, in themselves. Their wickedness consists in their displacement of what is the ultimate. And that I think is actually like very penetrating diagnosis of the human condition. The great enemy of the gospel, at least it seems to me, is not always, as you talk to people, like some kind of dramatic philosophical rejection, some well articulated hatred toward God. It's instead like a quiet absorption in the ordinary pursuits of life. It's like what I think Augustine called being curved inward upon oneself. The world is a great enchant. It be witches our souls, it distracts us. There are so many things that can pull us away from not only meditating on this gospel message, but coming alongside and appreciating. In participating in that great commission. There's so many things to distract us. It's, it's not as if we need a list. I think if I asked each one of you or you asked me, what are some things that you find distracting that pull you away from time and prayer time, studying God's word, time spent with my wife, time spent serving in my local church. I'm not gonna be hard pressed to find those things to say to you. So this idea that we have, whether it's the farm or this business pursuit here, I suppose it could be representative to at least great earthly loves. You have the land, kind of a agrarian rooted life, and then there's trade mercantile and acquisitive life. I mean, maybe these just suggests that the rejection spans all of our social and economic classes, both within Israel at the time and for us today. And so we move both from like this kind of cold indifference, this we'll have other things to do. I'm, I'm just too busy. And, uh, how many times do we really convince ourselves that we can justify our busyness when we feel the pull of the spirit that there is a need? We feel the pull of the gospel message because there's the gospel pressure to ensure that we are speaking truth and love to those around us. That we ourselves are responding to this invitation with our wholeheartedness, our mind, soul, and spirit, everything that we are, and we convince ourselves. Well, I just, you know, I have a lot going on right now. God, there's just so much that I need to do.  [00:26:34] Indifference Turns Violent [00:26:34] Jesse Schwamb: Now we get to verse six and things shift a little bit. Verse six reads, while the rest sees the servants and treated them shamefully and killed them. Now, what's interesting to me is the indifference, kinda just that cold lackadaisical ness of verse five escalates somehow into violence. In verse six, some of them invited not only ignore the servants, but actively persecute them. And so here we have them, basically are being told they treated them outrageously, shamelessly, they killed them, and, and that's really the language of the entire prophetic tradition, the killing of the prophets. In fact, this Greek word here is ris. It's a word for arrogance. Honor, violating, assault, a sin against the honor of both the messenger and the one who sent him both. Like the one who is the emissary and the one who grants power or vouch saves authority to that emissary. And so to assault the king's servant is of course, to come against the king, and this is an act of high treason. It's against the sovereign God of the entire universe. I, I like here something that Calvin notes about this kind of inexcusable aggregation of aggravation of Israel's sin. He writes, they not only rejected the grace, which was offered to them, but added cruelty to their contempt. That's incredible. Right? That's exactly what we do. We reject God. It's, it's of course like not only just taking all the gifts he gives us and pretending as if they're under our own authority or. Have been the result of our own talents or abilities. But instead, when we do this, we add cruelty to all of our contempt. And the reformed doctrine, of course, of total depravity is not merely the claim that humans are bad. It's the claim that following humanity left to itself moves progressively from the indifference. That we saw in the previous verse, verse five, two, hostility toward the living God in his gospel messengers, which we see in verse six. In other words, unless God constrain us, loved ones, that is the natural end of man to move from this place where I do not care about God till I hate him, and then I hate all those who represent him, all those who speak on his behalf. [00:28:46] Judgment On The City [00:28:46] Jesse Schwamb: And so the king's response here, as you might imagine, is one of anger. He's angry. He sends his troops and he destroys the scriptures, say those are murderers, and he burns their city. I mean, the verse is almost certainly this kind of pro prophecy filled in its intent and its content. It's I think, probably a transparent reference to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies in 80, 70. And Matthew, even if we say he's writing after that event, or in like a conservative dating with prophetic anticipation, presents Christ as foreseeing and pronouncing the divine judgment upon the city. And this King's anger, of course, is not just, it's not anger that's looking for reciprocity. It's not just anger that's saying, this has made me upset and I'm responding viscerally and emotionally. It's not petulant rage. It is holy and righteous wrath of the sovereign whose grace has been despised and whose servants have been murdered. The destruction is complete. The murderers are destroyed, the city is burned to the ground, and there are foreign tradition kind of following. A covenantal hermeneutic, I think reads 80, 70 as this terminus of the old Covenant administration in many ways, and the judgment upon Nashville Israel for his rejection, for her rejection, rather of the Messiah, you know? While all of that is true, I think what this presents for us is a reminder of how serious our God's Holiness is. And that again, every time we sin, every time that we come against God and someone would challenge his authority as it were, either directly or indirectly, we put ourselves in the place of those who reject the gospel message. And in so doing, we ought to fall on our knees and ask for the kind of repentance that is necessary because we ourselves are putting our place, we're extending among. The murderers, and in this case, the, the message that Jesus has for those is only anger and again, is a righteous kind of anger. So one might imagine as we read in like the previous parables, that Jesus could have just entirely ended there. It almost sounds like we've drawn to a close.  [00:31:04] Invitation Rejected [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, there's a king. He has a wedding banquet for his son. He sent out last invitations. Nobody came. He goes to confronts the guests and not only do they say we're not interested, some of them are like, yeah, we burned all the invitations. And then the people that you sent to remind us, we killed those people. And it'll be right for the king to say. That's it. Everybody's done here. I'm shutting the whole thing down. And honestly, that could have happened in the garden. That could happen at the cross. Instead, we find something totally different. The parable goes on.  [00:31:33] Feast Still Happens [00:31:33] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, verse eight reads, then he said to his servants, the wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Notice loved ones that the feast does not get canceled. I mean, Christmas doesn't get canceled. It's just redirected. The king's purposes will not, cannot be frustrated, and this is a critical sociological and eschatological claim to me, at least. What we're seeing here is the refusal of the invited guests does not leave the wedding hall empty. Praise the Lord. It occasions the wider extension of the invitation.  [00:32:07] Gospel Offer Explained [00:32:07] Jesse Schwamb: And this idea of not worthy does not introduce a prior standard of merit by which the guests were found deficient. But instead, as you know, their unworthiness consists in their refusal To refuse the gospel is to demonstrate one's unworthiness of it. And so worthiness in this context is not some kinda like moral achievement, but it's a covenantal responsiveness. It's the openness of the creature to receive what the king graciously provides. It's why when we stand before God in the kind of judgment that we rightfully deserve, and he says something to the extent of, why should I let you into my heaven? Why should I let you enjoy eternal life with me? We should rightly say, because you promised. And because by the power of your Holy Spirit, through the faith you have given and instilled in me by this imputed righteousness, I can trust you at your promise. And so I think this verse is like so critical for understanding the well meant offer of the gospel. Again, we should together affirm that the gospel is offered to all without distinction, and that those who do not come are inexcusable. God does not will. The damnation of those who reject the gospel as a bare first intention, their damnation follows from their own culpable refusal.  [00:33:31] Mission To All Roads [00:33:31] Jesse Schwamb: And so the king says, listen guys, go out everywhere. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding piece. As many as you find. I don't know how you're envisioning. If you were listening to this story and you were like setting the actual scene, but I don't know, to me, I just find them, the, the servants or the slaves that they look at it one another and they're just like s go time and they just turn around and start going everywhere to all the places, uh, to anyone who will listen to all the like, stops that there were on the byways. All the highways, all the roads. They're just going through all the places. Wherever the road takes 'em, that's where they're going. And all along the way they're spreading this mission, this invitation, and the mission now. Is universal in scope. The main roads, literally the, the exits, the outlets of all these places. The thoroughfares, where the roads branch out of the city and the highways diverge in the countryside. This is representing, of course, like the ends of the earth, the places where any and all may be found. And the command here to as many as you find to go to those is of course, like a command of universal scope. It's for you and me, loved ones there. There's no prior qualification, rich or poor, Jewish, gentile, moral or immoral. This is the missio day, breaking through all ethnic and social boundaries, and in this loving way, in this pastoral way, it underpins the free and indiscriminate offer of the gospel. Again, like going back to the Westminster Confession and the shorter catechism, affirming this covenant of grace that is administered by the preaching of the word. And no matter where you work, like reform theology from like William Cur, David Bernard, like to the modern missionary movement, we're drawing from this mandate of precisely this kind of universal commission. You know, it's like Spurgeon, I think once said something effect of like, Christ has done more than give a general invitation. He has given an urgent, pressing, commanding invitation to all something like that. And I always remember that because when I think about what it means to step into this role of fulfilling the great commission of understanding what Jesus is saying here, it's not just as if we're saying, listen, the world is in a dire place. This is an emergency situation. And so for all of us in our sphere of influence. To bring forward this message of the indiscriminate offer of the gospel is to take God at his word and then to deliver that word to all of those, all the highways, all the byways, all the outplace, every tribe, Tong, nation. What a glorious thing that our God has given us and put us on mission in this way so that no matter who we meet, we know we might say Jesus loves you, that Jesus has died for you. This is, I think, one of the things that those who maybe are new to the reformed tradition and the theological perspective. Find a little bit interesting to parse out, or maybe sometimes if you've had conversations like I have people think that we're parsing the words too much, but there's something to be said for the death of Jesus being sufficient for all and efficacious for the elect, that we're not simply splitting words. There we're describing very discreetly, very cogently, very crisply. This indiscriminate gospel message while at the same time recognizing that it's God's sovereign choice and will to draw those whom he will to himself. And so in verse 10.  [00:36:54] Good And Bad Gathered [00:36:54] Jesse Schwamb: These servants go out to the roads and they gather all whom they found both good and bad. And so the wedding hall, guess what was filled with guests, because this is God's sovereign prerogative because he can do all these things because even those who have denied him does not remove him from power. That he does all the verbs and so the servants obey and the results are comprehensive. They gather in all of these, and Matthew's quick to say both the good and the bad, and I think like the good and the bad pairing is significant. I don't think this is necessarily meaning that there's the morally virtuous and the morally depraved, though that probably is included somewhere. But I think this, this more, this reflection that, once again, it's all kinds of people. For God's to love the world that whomsoever, all of those who believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life. The wedding hall is filled, it was filled, and it's filled by God's sovereign action through human instrumentality.  [00:37:53] Visible And Invisible Church [00:37:53] Jesse Schwamb: And there is, like I'd say, if you're tracking with this, you should notice that there is a, a kinda a tension here. It sits between verses 10 and 11, and it's going to resolve the banquet hall is full. But you'll notice that it's not all within, well, not everybody who's within it are truly saved. And we'll get to why that isn't just a second. But the filling of the hall through the universal gospel summons does produce a mixed company. We've already talked about the parable of the terrors in the wheat before, so this, this should be news if you've been listening to us for a little while, but it's precisely the condition of the visible church in this age. Again, I just think it's fantastic that when we go to the scriptures, one of the reasons we know it's true is because God tells us the truth about the way things are. And we know that this is the way that the church is today. We would call this the visible versus the invisible church. And of course there's a distinguishing between the visible church, which consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion from the invisible church, which is the totality of the elect, those who God has actually called to himself. So the hole is full. But not all in the hall are clothed. And this is fascinating how Jesus brings in this idea of dressing of not, I mean, not what you put on your salad, a smorgasbord, but like what you're actually wearing.  [00:39:07] Wedding Garment Meaning [00:39:07] Jesse Schwamb: So in verse 11, but the king came in to look at the guests and he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. So notice that the parable scene here kind of shifts dramatically all of a sudden because the king arrives suddenly. He's present. He was speaking, he was giving instructions, he was preparing, he was a character, kind of chilling in the background. But now there's this eschatological moment the king's coming to inspect. The guests corresponds to this final judgment, and what he finds is there's a man without a wedding garment. He's at the center, I think of this parables, theological climax. So what, what is this wedding garment? I would put it to you like, as you're thinking through this and maybe interpreting listening for yourself, what do you think the wedding garment is? And I would say like what most reformed interpreters have been unified on is that this really represents that imputed righteousness, the the righteousness of Christ that's credited to the believer and received by faith alone. And so by a wedding garment, I would understand this to mean the purity and the holiness of that transforms and regenerated life, which is required of all those who are brought inside the true and invisible church. And though he immediately qualifies this as like righteousness, that is inseparable from justification. It is not earned, but it is received. In fact, I think, uh, I have my Logos Bible software up as I'm talking to you, and I see that Matthew Henry comments on this by saying, the righteousness of Christ is the robe of righteousness, the garment of salvation in which true believers are closed. I mean. That's a great turn of phrase, brothers and sisters. I love this idea of what the scriptures tell us elsewhere of putting on these garments of praise or worship, the garments of Christ, of being exchanged out as it were, for what is dirty and unsuitable for something that suits the occasion that is given to you to wear by faith alone. And of course, this wedding garment is not a work that the guest has produced, but it's a garment provided, uh, presumably like the king's servants actually supplied it. Uh, I, I think that's like a detail implied by the ancient custom and the severity of the guest condemnation for lacking it. It's almost as if the king is saying. Uh, like you were, should have been provided. Why did you not put this on? Why did by faith you not accept this? And this underscores the so gratia and so fide. The righteousness by which we stand before God on the last day is not our own, but Christ, it's received through faith. And the man without the garment represents those who presume to stand before God on the basis of their own righteousness. Whether that's religious profession. Moral achievement, charitable giving, mere church membership rather. And instead of. That alien and beautiful righteousness of Christ. So the fact that this man is inside the hall, you know, he's come in through the general call confirms that the parable addresses not only those outside the church, but those within it who lack genuine saving faith. It's almost, to me, kind of like an intra ecclesial warning. It's, it's not merely a missional observation. I think that is for all of us. It's why Paul elsewhere says. Check test, confirm to see whether you yourselves are in this faith because it is by faith that we put on these wedding garments which are appropriate and suitable for this great eschatological Messianic wedding feast with the lamb. [00:42:48] Speechless Before Judgment [00:42:48] Jesse Schwamb: So in verse 12, the king says to him, friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment? And notice the man's response. I, I almost find this kind of funny because he just says, and he was speechless. Like there was, there was nothing for him, uh, to, to say it all. And of course, like this question that's posed here, this, how did you get in here without the winning government? It's not a real question, right? It's not a question of genuine puzzlement. It's the same way in which when we find God walking in the cool of the day, in the garden after the sin of Adam and E, where he says, Adam, where are you? It's not a genuine question of a quizzical nature. It's instead, this rhetorical structure is God questions through judgments. And when he says to Cain, where is Abel your brother, where is Abel, your brother? He's exposing and he's condemning. He's not merely inquiring. And so this man in response, sensing this condemnation, discerning this condemnation, this judgment that's been brought against him, I think this is why the Greek says he was muzzled. He was silenced, his mouth was shut up. He had no answer. Uh, it's not because the question was unfair. But because there was just no legitimate words that he could bring there, there was no argumentation. In other words, there's no poll mic. There was no great debate that he could have. In this moment. Every mouth will be stopped before God. I mean, that's like Romans three. The silence of the ungodly before the Divine Tribunal is a consistent biblical theme, and we find it here. Again, this is the eschatological end to those who are condemned. No one loved ones is gonna stand before God on the last day and successfully argue their case on the ground of personal merit. I love William Perkins on this topic. He was apparently really moved. I learned by this verse and by what he saw in the silence as a profound warning against false assurance. So he actually wrote many a man in this world. Silence is his own conscience. With many fair excuse. Do you hear that? I, I love that turn of phrase. So we're talking about silence. It's about being silence, but I love how he says it's very easy to, to silence, not yourself, not like somebody coming against you with debate, but your own conscience. So he writes, again, many a man in this world will silence his own conscience with many a fair excuse. But in that day, there will be no excuse, no plea, no delay. So that time of plea is now, it's in this life. It's by faith and repentance, which is why there's an urgency to this gospel message. And so the king.  [00:45:17] Outer Darkness Warning [00:45:17] Jesse Schwamb: In hearing this and knowing that this man has no excuse for his outer attire, he says to him, listen to the servants. Bind him hand and foot, cast him into outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The sentence is severe. It's total. Of the command is given to the servants and attendance maybe in this parable and parabolic form, likely the angelic executors of divine judgment and it is binding. It renders the condemned utterly helpless. It's a picture of total divine control over the destiny of the ate. He has cast into this outer darkness, outside the light and warmth of the banquet hall entirely. And I think it's incumbent upon us to take a second and to grieve the repercussions of what is being said here. That the death and destruction of the ATE should make us grieve. It should compel us to go out into the highways, the byways, and to share this message. Unreservedly. One of the ways we know really the full anguish of what this entails is this phrase, weeping and gnashing of teeth, actually occurs seven times in Matthew, and it functions as this refrain, this chorus, this common language of this eschatological condemnation, it combines interestingly in this wordplay here, both the anguish of grief with the rage of frustrated pride. It's a portrait, not of this just like regret, but continuing imp penitent, hostility against God and eternal punishment. And I think if Tony were here, he would agree with me that we have consistently affirmed the doctrine of eternal conscience punishment. You know, the Westminster Confession says, the wicked who know not God and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be cast into eternal torments. In other words, this outer darkness is not annihilation. The weeping and the gnashing continues. It implies an ongoing conscious existence. It's the image of a binding stands against the notion of this kind of postmortem repentance or universalism. The severity of that verse, I think, really must be allowed to stand in its canonical context without mitigation. The, the severity of this judgment ought to fill us with fear, not theological domestication. We, we shouldn't set this aside and be saying, well, this implies that there is nothing after that time. No, there continues to be only time with God in his presence, in eternal, consummate joy and harmony and peacefulness and celebration. Or there is literally. A weeping and a gnashing of teeth, an unresolved rage and anger where that is punished by God because he's absent where there's unmitigated pain and suffering because it is absent the presence and the mediation of God himself, who even now in this world, holds us back so that while we are sinful and we are not as bad as we could or ought to be because of his great kindness, all of us, even those. Who are not believers.  [00:48:37] Called Yet Chosen [00:48:37] Jesse Schwamb: And so because of that, it ends with these very famous in stock words in in verse 14, for many are called, but few are chosen. And that concluding aphorism is, I think, the theological linchpin of this entire thing. The contrast between this idea of called and chosen, you know, this is the vocabulary that is deliberately covenantal and elective, and we shouldn't shy away from that. Of course, it's referring to this external call, the universal proclamation of the gospel to all the hearers. The call is genuine, it's earnest, it's gentile, it's sufficient as an offer. It is the call that goes to all the highways, all who hear the gospel are truly called to repentance and faith. And for me, in my own journey of understanding what this means as God has allowed me to, that has been critical. This idea that this universal call means that it is sufficient as a call to repentance and faith for all those who hear it. And then it does become the responsibility of all those who hear it to respond to it. And so this idea then of this pairing then with the chosen and the elect is referring of course to those whom God has chosen from before the foundation of the world. The elect are those who not only receive the external call, but are effectually drawn by the eternal efficacious call of the Holy Spirit. We can look to Romans eight 30, those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified. And I say, because this is a Reformed Theological podcast, and this is what you came here for, I presume, brothers and sisters. Then it behooves us to at least mention again that the reformed tradition has classically distinguished between that external or general call, the sincere well meant proclamation of the gospel to all without distinction, inviting everybody to faith and repentance. That call is genuine on God's part and God's doing the verbs in that as well. And then again, we, we set that over in next two, the internal, what we call like effectual efficacious call. It's sovereign. It's irresistible work of the Holy Spirit by which the elect regenerated, have their will renewed and are infallibly brought to saving faith. All those whom God has predestined unto life and those only he's pleased in his appointed and accepted time to affectionately call by His word and his spirit out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. I was thinking recently of this idea of the narrow path and somewhere between like the scriptures there and pilgrim's progress, and paths and journeys. I had this image in my mind of the road on which we walk. And in this life, the natural man on that road encounters all these like intractable boulders, these things that cannot be traversed. These just great mountainous pieces of rock, which block the path. And so prevent us from at least accomplishing the thing that we would like. Like to live forever, to have peace with God, to be at peace with ourselves, to love our brothers and our sisters as much as we love ourselves to honor something that is greater than us. And those boulders are things like sin, death in the devil, which constantly invade us, which constantly thwart us, which constantly block us. And in Christ, what he has accomplished in salvation is not just, I think to remove those boulders, though that would've been good enough of course to just get them outta the way. Instead, it's as if he's taken them and he's crushed them, and now to the softest sand between our toes and we walk over them in victory by the power of his name through the Holy Spirit into eternal life. Into that grand wedding feast spoil, which we have been invited because he has done this because he loves us. And so verse 14 places these two realities side by side without resolving the tension. Philosophically, this is one of the great mysteries of theology. Uh, reformed theology does not collapse the distinction by limiting the external call to the elect alone as like maybe kind of a hyper Calvinist model, but it doesn't make the internal call dependent on a human decision. As like Armenian theology would instead, you know, the tension is, is biblical. This is here for us. It's here for us, because I believe that God wishes for us to submit our knowledge and our reasoning to him knowing that he is far and above us. And because this tension is biblical, it has to be maintained. The invitation is genuinely universal. The effectual drawing is sovereignly particular. How great is our God loved ones? There is no one like him. And so there's so much in this that I think we could spend all of the rest of our life thinking about, and that would be a noble, I was just thinking today that, um, you know, unless the Lord Terrys like, maybe this will be the last series me and Tony ever do, because there's so much that's rich and deep in these parables and there's so many of them, and the teaching of Christ is, is so complete of course, for us because it gives us everything that we need for life and salvation and godliness that. We find that the more that we look into them, the more that we ask the Holy Spirit to bathe us in a realization that comes from the spirit of God, the more that we will find. They challenge us. They encourage us. They equip us. So I'm thinking and praying for you all as I hope that you are for Tony and I as we continue to wrestle with these things as we continue to talk them out, because I'm asking God that he would equip us as we look at the teaching of his son in these parables with a firm understanding of the truth and equip us with his promises and with his encouragement so that. As he grows us in our faith, our faith for us would be like a thousand eyes and a thousand wings that we would find ourselves moving from glory to glory. Because we see in these parables the great work of God for us. What he has accomplished through his son and how he continues to be for us and the son who is given for us is with us. That we have his Holy Spirit within us and who discerns the mind of God, accept the spirits of God. So love us. Let's continue to get after what's being said in these parables here because there's so much for us here.  [00:55:14] Living The Commission [00:55:14] Jesse Schwamb: And might I add, just to tack onto the end, there's also so much for the world. I know that we're quick to say, or like colloquially Christians have said in the past like, Jesus is the answer, but you I think cannot necessarily fault the world for sometimes asking, well, what is the question? And unless we go forward with this proper understanding that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That all are in need of this savior and that this gospel message is for, in fact, for all people without reservation. Full stop. I guess I ask for you and I and Tony who's editing this episode, are we going out into the highways and byways? What is the proof of the pudding in the eating look like when we examine our lives, but with specifically our finances and our time and our prayer closet and our service? Aren't we in fact concerned with the great commission that is reflected here? Are we concerned with the emergence and urgent need of this gospel message, which is for all people because God so loved the world that he gave his only forgotten son. That whosoever shall believe in him will not per but have everlasting life.  [00:56:27] Community And Support [00:56:27] Jesse Schwamb: So come hang out with us. Come talk about this parable. You know where to go. But I'm gonna tell you anyway because that's what we do. If you go to your browser, type in T Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, that link will take you to an app called Telegram. Telegram is just a messaging app. It's like, I dunno, iMessages for Apple or whatever you Android people are using these days. And there's just a little community that we've sectioned off there. And it's a community of listeners to the Reform Brotherhood who are talking about all kinds of things. You, you wanna be in that group? It is. It is a great group. Don't, don't reject the invitation. Don't reject it. Just, just come. I know you're thinking, listen, I got land. I got commerce I gotta deal with. That's fine. Come, come and join us. So go to t.me/reform brotherhood. One last thing. I would be remiss if I didn't thank all of those who make sure that this podcast still goes out to all the highways and the byways of the internet. That there is no Jericho paywall around it because it does cost money to put out there all the subscriptions, all the distribution. It's surprising, but there are. Intense fees with a lot of that stuff, and so I wanna say thank you, thank you, thank you to those who have listened and said, you know what? I would like to make sure. That this continues to go on. I've been blessed just by the conversation. God has done something here because again, he does all the verbs. Tony and I do zero verbs, and so because of that, they've gone to patreon.com Reform Brotherhood, and they've just decided to give a little bit of the kindness of their heart and generosity to the Lord. So if you're thinking, you know what? I've been listening for a while, and I do appreciate that this just magically, as it were, pops up in my feed and I continue to listen to it. Would you please consider helping us? Uh, Tony and I and so many other listeners who give a little bit just to make sure that together we can keep this thing going strong. And again, you can just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood. There's also a website, uh, reform brother.com and all kinds of other fun stuff. But I will leave that to you. I, I didn't even bring it up. See, I'm just so glad that you mentioned it yourself 'cause it would've been awkward otherwise.  [00:58:31] Final Blessing [00:58:31] Jesse Schwamb: So loved ones. There are still so many more parables to go. They're all so good. So I hope that you all come back and join us next time as we continue to move through these parables. But until then, there's something that you should definitely do honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. 

In this profound exploration of Matthew 21:40-46, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb unpack the Parable of the Wicked Tenants and its devastating indictment of Israel's religious leadership. The hosts navigate the complex theological terrain of kingdom transfer, covenant faithfulness, and the identity of God's people across redemptive history. With careful attention to the text's original context and its implications for the church today, they examine how Christ presents himself as the rejected cornerstone—the one upon whom people either fall in repentance or are crushed in judgment. This episode offers rich insights into supersessionism, the remnant theology of Romans 11, and the practical call for Christians to examine whether they're submitting to Christ as the true cornerstone or attempting to usurp his rightful place. Key Takeaways The Self-Condemning Verdict: The chief priests and Pharisees unknowingly pronounce judgment upon themselves when they declare the wicked tenants deserve destruction, demonstrating how the natural conscience can discern God's justice even when blind to personal complicity. Kingdom Transfer as Covenant Transition: The "taking away" of the kingdom represents not the abandonment of God's elect remnant but the historical-redemptive transition from the typological Old Covenant administration to the New Covenant church gathered from all nations. The Cornerstone's Double Judgment: Christ as the cornerstone presents two modes of encounter—those who fall upon him in repentance are broken but healed; those upon whom he falls in final judgment are ground to powder with no remedy. Visible vs. Invisible Church Distinction: The visible identification of God's people shifted from the geopolitical nation of Israel to the universal church, while the invisible elect have always been saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah. Fear of Man vs. Fear of God: The Pharisees' restraint from seizing Jesus due to fear of the crowds (rather than fear of God) exemplifies how the wicked are dominated by human opinion rather than divine accountability. Infant Baptism and Covenant Community: The joyful inclusion of children in the visible covenant community through baptism reflects God's gracious promise sealed to those who contribute nothing to their own covenant status. Fruit-Bearing as Evidence: The "new tenants" are characterized not by works-righteousness but by evidential fruit—the genuine works that flow from "true and lively faith" worked by the Holy Spirit. Key Concepts The Irony of Self-Condemnation The theological and pastoral power of this parable reaches its climax when the religious leaders, failing to perceive themselves as the wicked tenants in Jesus's story, pronounce harsh judgment upon the hypothetical villains: "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end." This moment mirrors Nathan's confrontation of David after the Bathsheba affair, yet with a tragic difference—these leaders never experience David's repentance. Calvin observes that the natural conscience, even when blind to personal guilt, retains an "hidden impulse to identify with justice." The Pharisees demonstrate total depravity in high definition: they possess enough moral clarity to recognize egregious covenant-breaking in the abstract, yet remain entirely blind to their own embodiment of that very wickedness. This irony serves as both judgment and warning—we all possess an uncanny ability to see sin clearly everywhere except in the mirror. Kingdom Transfer: Covenant Continuity and Discontinuity The phrase "the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit" requires careful theological handling to avoid both replacement theology (in its pejorative sense) and dispensational fragmentation. The Reformed understanding maintains covenant continuity: there has always been one people of God, defined not ethnically but by faith in the Messiah. What changes is the visible administration of the covenant. Under the Old Covenant, the visible church was largely coterminous with ethnic Israel—a geopolitical reality with boundaries, a zip code, and national identity. Under the New Covenant, the visible church explodes these ethnic and geographic boundaries, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that "in your seed all nations will be blessed." This is not Plan B; it's the eschatological unveiling of what was always intended. The "breaking off of natural branches" (Romans 11) refers to covenant unfaithfulness resulting in exclusion from visible covenant privileges, while the faithful Jewish remnant—the apostles, early believers, and the ongoing elect from Israel—remain fully incorporated into the church. The vineyard hasn't been abandoned; it's been opened to "other tenants" who will render the proper fruit: Gentiles grafted in alongside believing Jews into the one olive tree of God's redemptive purposes. The Cornerstone: Salvation or Destruction Christ's invocation of Psalm 118:22—"the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone"—followed by his dual judgment ("whoever falls on this stone will be broken...on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust") presents two exhaustive options for relating to Jesus. The cornerstone in ancient construction was the foundational stone by which all other stones found their proper alignment and orientation. To fall upon this stone willingly—in repentance, faith, and self-abandonment—is painful. It shatters pride, self-righteousness, and autonomy. But this breaking leads to healing, to being properly "squared" and aligned with reality as God has constructed it. The alternative is catastrophic: to have the cornerstone fall upon you in final eschatological judgment is to experience irreversible, total destruction—being "ground to powder" with no possibility of remedy. The practical application is urgent: we must examine ourselves continually to ensure we're not attempting to be our own cornerstone, measuring righteousness by our own standards, aligning the universe to ourselves rather than submitting to Christ as the measure of all things. Memorable Quotes "There's never a time where that righteousness is removed or unapplied, but we are constantly faced with a choice as to whether we want to be the kind of people who render our fruit unto the Lord, as the faithful tenants when the unfaithful tenants are replaced. Or do we wanna be the people that reap wicked fruit and keep for ourselves?" — Tony Arsenal "The vineyard of God is still let out, the fruit is still demanded, the cornerstone is still laid. Blessed are they who receive him—and also get those babies into church." — Jesse Schwamb "This is not a wall you're gonna run through. Like you're gonna smash into this wall and it's gonna crush you. And if you are not properly assigning the cornerstone its place... the whole thing is gonna crush you." — Tony Arsenal Full Episode Transcript [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 492 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:14] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:19] Parable Recap [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Well, the time has finally come for us to close out our discussion in Matthew 21. This is the Parable of the Vine growers, and everybody should just go back and list everything we said so far, but I think here's how we could sum it up. Jesus's authority gets challenged and he sets a trap so beautiful that we should put it into a museum. He tells basically the religious bigwigs, this whole story where tenants speed up servants, they kill the air. They generally behave like it's an HOA literally run by the devil. And then he asks them this question, so what should the owner of the vineyard do And the chief priest. Chest puffed up. Basically shout out the answers to their own indictment. Smoke 'em. Give the vineyard to somebody who isn't garbage. Listen fellas, you just preached your own funeral. So in this we get to see this total depravity in 4K. Sovereign grace skips the credential gatekeepers and it lands on the tax collectors and the gentiles. They elect the vineyard, the self-righteous, get the rock. And we're gonna close out what all of that means, including probably not a small amount of talk about the kingdom being transferred, whatever that means, and maybe a little engrafting. Aah, Romans 11 style. It's all there for us. And that is what is coming up. [00:02:34] Affirmations Setup [00:02:34] Jesse Schwamb: Of course before we can do any of that, we can't even get there. Tony, before we do affirmations, denials, you and I both know it's our contractual obligation. It's what the people want all over the world. If we skip this, there will be some kind of riot revolt. So we gotta start there. Let's not get too excited yet. So I'm curious as always, are you affirming with something or you not against something for this episode?  [00:02:58] Tony Arsenal: I am, I'm affirming, uh, this is gonna be like people are gonna grow and roll their eyes a little bit.  [00:03:04] Infant Baptism Joy [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming infant baptism today. We had a lovely infant baptism at church, um, and a couple recently had a child. Um, there's been, this was a kind of a particularly, um, poignant baptism. Um, the, the mother was in the hospital for several weeks before the baby was born, um, with some medical challenges, so was in. In the hospital. In the hospital for like, I want to say probably four weeks, which is a long time. Um, they have several other children, which makes it even harder. Um, and then, uh, then the baby was in the hospital for quite some time. He came a little early and then had some other issues. Um, and so this family was out of church for quite some time dealing with these health issues, and we, we all miss them very much. So it was a very sweet moment. Um, and it's just a, a good reminder, right? And, and the way our church does it is, you know, the pastor, the family comes up, they do vows, they do the baptism, but he calls all the children forward and the children come and sit, uh, right in the front row and they watch this all happen. Um. Which is, is very sweet. And you know, I, I went up there with Augie, and Augie was sitting on my lap and he was very, he was like super locked into this, this whole thing, which is, uh, which was nice to see. So I'm affirming infant baptism. It's a beautiful, beautiful picture of the gospel. Um, it's, it's God's promise being sealed to someone who contributes nothing to, um, to that promise contributes nothing to, uh, their own, um, position in the church or status in the church. They contribute nothing. Um, in most cases they're not even aware of what's going on. So I know not all of our listeners are, uh, are covenant infant Baptists, uh, type people. Um, so yes, I get it. You disagree, but there is something just sweet and beautiful, uh, even I think even for people who aren't quite sold on infant baptism. Um, and I think even sometimes for people who are kind of opposed to infant baptism, I think we've commented in the PA past that there's kind of this impulse that I think all Christian parents have that their children should be. Treated in a certain way that's different than how a non-Christian family treats their children. Right. Um, so there is kind of this instinct that the, there's, whether it's a formal status or just sort of a, a way of thinking about things, there is this impulse that the children of believers are somehow set apart in different, and of course, the, the Presbyterian Covenant Baptist, um, position would, would formalize that through the rite of baptism, uh, at least in part. So I'm affirming infant baptism, both theologically, but also just experimentally today. Like it was just, it was just a balm to my soul to see this, um. And like I said, the congregation has been praying for a long time for the health, uh, and the, the welfare of this family, um, and been, you know, doing meal trains and all the stuff that churches do. But it was, it was a very sweet moment, um, to see the pastor scoop this little baby up in his arms and be able to sort of introduce him to the church as the newest covenant member of the congregation. Uh, it was just a very nice moment. [00:05:59] Baptism Dedication Common Ground [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right. We can all agree that there's something really beautiful about God growing his church, at least the visible church, through just the multiplicative effect of. People having children, there's something beautiful about that, and then welcoming them in an official way into your congregation, into your midst. Interestingly, in my church, there was a baby dedication today and I was also equally moved though like I would say the promises that were invoked during that time, the equipment's made are very different than what you might hear during kind of pedo infant baptism. You're right in that the spirit of this that is like a representation kind of bringing forward of the child to say he or she is part of us and we're making a commitment to raise them in admonition of the Lord is a really lovely thing. It's like a public recognition that God is providing a manifest blessing in our midst, and that he is growing and working out his church and he's doing it by just bringing new people into it who are being, who are the subjects of procreation. Creation itself, but procreation and how can you not be like, just excited about that. And, and also a little bit like it's also, and I'm not trying to denigrate any practice here, but also just on the face also super adorable. Like when you, when you see a pastor scoop up, like you said, a little child, whether that's to pray with them and dedication or to baptize them. Either way, it's super just like lovely and just pulls in your heartstrings. Yeah. In like this very spiritual way, not just in kind of an emotional kind of way.  [00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I don't, I think, um, when I think back, you know, Augie's, obviously you know this, but Augie was dedicated, um, Addie was not. Um, but when I think back to the vows we took, when we dedicated Augie, there are some differences, but there's also a lot that's not different like the sure close to like, raise up your child in the church and to like, pray for them and set a good example. And then, and then the sort of reciprocal vows that the congregation typically takes, that the congregation will do what they can to support the family as they, they raise this child and the Lord. Um, you know, even in, even in a lot of contexts, like in the Presbyterian church, I'm in like prayers that this, this child would come to know Jesus and would, would come to confess the faith for themselves and become a full, you know, full communicate member of the church. Like, those things are all present. So as much as I think, um. As much as I wanna acknowledge that infant baptism or, or covenant, I, I say covenant baptism versus, um, sort of like baptist theology writ, large credo Baptist theology, which is covenantal, but differently covenantal in most cases. Right. Um, even though that is a dividing line, and I think like it's a real dividing line. There's a real division that exists and that there's good theological historical reasons why those divisions exist. There still is so much that is the same. Um, in terms of how Baptists and, and Presbyterians or however formed, you know, PR Christians, um, re reflect on and think about their children. There's some differences, but in terms of like. We all want our children to come to know Jesus. We all want their first memory to be worshiping in the church and loving the Lord. We, we don't want them to ever remember a time where the name of Christ was not on their lips as their savior. Um, all those things are the same and even the, the way we promise before God and, and primarily before God, but before others, even the way we promise to nourish them in, in right doctrine and nourish them in good teaching and bring them into the church and, and set a faithful example. All of those things are the same. So I I I, I never want to diminish the fact that there are differences 'cause there are real differences and there are important differences. But I also think we often sort of like. I think because we've talked about this before, like Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians are so close that we have to bicker over the things that are different. It's like you're, it's like when you fight with your brother on whose side of the room it's on. Like you're so close that you have to find the little things to really bicker about and then you really, really bicker about them. And I think that kind of like describes the, the Presbyterian Baptist divide in a lot of ways. I know there's a lot of people that would say like, Lutherans are closer to Presbyterians and those people are just, I dunno, they're just wrong. Um, on, on, maybe on baptism, they're, they're not wrong. But in terms of general theological principles, like, you know, Westminster Confession, London Baptists, confession, like, it, it's 95% the same content. Sure. Um, and 95% like the same confession, not just the same like words, but the same meaning of the words. And, um, so yeah. Anyway, that's my affirmation. Infant baptism. It was a joy. I was happy to see it. Um, uh, we have a ton of little, little babies in the, the church. It's funny 'cause another, another, um. A couple announced today that they were expecting, and we've, we've had basically pregnant women in the church for, you know, obviously like at least nine months if someone is still pregnant. But like we've had, we've had this like rotation of, of women delivering babies for like, at least, probably, at least 16, 18 months of, of constantly having people who are, are expecting, which is really a great joy to see. So I, I love it. I love the church. I love the Presbyterian church. Um, and this was just another great example of, of the beauty of, uh, a robust confessionalism and a robust presbyterianism. [00:11:08] Jesse Schwamb: The way in which you said that made it sound like you're about to make like a grand historical statement. Like, we've had pregnant people in the church since the first century.  [00:11:18] Tony Arsenal: Well, I mean that's probably true, but  [00:11:19] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it definitely  [00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: true. Not, not our church. Our church has only been around, our particular church has only been around for like 10 years, so I'm sure there have been times during that period where there were not pregnant people  [00:11:29] Jesse Schwamb: pregnant. It just sounded like we were going all the way back as if like to, again emphasize and maybe this isn't, this is as fair statement, like how faithful God has been like from the beginning. There's always been. Pregnant lady Church. Look, look at how faithful God is.  [00:11:42] Mic Grabbing Babies [00:11:42] Jesse Schwamb: And, and this is true, I like to play this game when there is a baby dedication. I'm not sure what the sound system is like in your church, but often our, our pastors wear like the tiny little like Backstreet Boys style. It's probably outdated reference, but microphone that comes over the ear and to the mouth and it's very discreet. But the game I like to play is like once, once he takes the child for a time of dedication or specifically prayer, the, the goal is to see like how long before that baby goes for the mic. Because as soon as like a baby sees a mic right there, it's like, oh yeah, this is the best thing that's happened to me in my tiny little life.  [00:12:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's like an angler fish is really what it is. Yes. It's like that glowing bulb that just sits in front of its face and it's, the baby's just gotta grab it. [00:12:27] Jesse Schwamb: It's just too tempting. It's just too tempting. And I, and I love, you can tell like our pastors are really adept at being able to keep the prayer going and like discreetly maneuver the child, keep the child happy. It's, it's really an amazing thing. So altogether, I'm totally with you on so many levels. It's so good to see that happen in the church. And I'm with you on that. We gotta take joy in that For sure.  [00:12:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight?  [00:12:50] Book Breath Pick [00:12:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, something that's entirely unlike everything you just said. Certainly. Well, maybe, I guess there is a large spiritual component to this, but it's, I would say, for me, totally unexpected book recommendation and I came across this 'cause it was recommended to me and a while back, the keen or the listener who's been with us for a really long time, or a member that we talked about the book or why we sleep, this book became for me, like the equivalent of that in a totally different kind of topic or genre. It's called breath. The New Signs of a Lost Art by James Nestor and it explores how the way that humans breathe profoundly affects our health, our performance, our longevity. It's a book that is filled with both science and pseudoscience, which the author is really good at distinguishing and calling you to think about those things. But it's really totally changed how I understand like this little pattern in Habits of breathing. And it's a really interesting book of course. Like he draws from a lot of like religious influences, including of course the Judeo-Christian one. And I think that it even drew me back to understanding how God created us. And he did in a very specific way that text's giving some great description to the breadth that he gives us and how he gives us that breath. So if you're looking, I guess, for a little bit of a read, so that might surprise you about something that you might thought was automatic and simple in life and also that might. Be able to bring you some recommendations on how to better your health. Again, we're not doctors, but we are routinely considered among the top 50 healthcare podcasts. Then I would say this would be an interesting book for you to check out.  [00:14:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't read it, but it's been recommended to me and one of the, one of the takeaways, actually, I think it might have been my doctor, my my PCP who mentioned this to me is like, if you wanna improve your health drastically, like just make it a practice of breathing through your nose. Yes. Like something that simple and straightforward has pretty significant health impacts of like. Like the way that your brain processes breath when it comes through your nose, the way that like, there's more filtering that happens with breath, so the air that gets to your lungs is cleaner. There's just a lot of, um, I haven't read it. I've, I think I actually have it somewhere, but I have not read it yet. Um, I, I should, I should take a look at it. I, I've heard good things about it.  [00:15:01] Jesse Schwamb: At the very least, if you're a Christian, it'll cause you to marvel again. That's how beautifully complex God has made the human body and how it seems entirely impossible that anyone could even logically reasonably conclude that somehow we are just time plus matter, plus chance, and that all these things got worked out. I don't wanna spoil some of the punchline. A part of the book is about this. Breathe through your nose, which you might think was just kind of an innocuous decision. Breathe through your nose, breathe your mouth. How, how different could it be? They actually do an experiment where they plug their noses, the author and somebody else for, uh, several, like 10 days straight. And do all these these things under medical supervision to see what the impact is. And I'll leave you to read it so you can hear that. There's also something fascinating, absolutely fascinating about carbon dioxide and a study that's done where they actually have people inhale a little bit of carbon dioxide and what it does to the body. In other words, like the system that God has put into play to ensure that the body gets the kind of right amount of oxygen that it needs and how it functions when it's given the warning side of carbon dioxide, even when. Your lung capacity and your oxygen, your blood doesn't change. There's a fascinating section on that. So I didn't expect to be this interested in the book and generally I take a little time before I recommend a book. I finished this a couple weeks ago and I'm still thinking about it. So, and I'm trying to put some things into practice, including I try to do some running and for the longest time I just thought, well, when you run, like even at any like moderate speed, like you have to breathe through your mouth, this book challenges some of that. So lo and behold, I went out and started to try just a little bit to see if I could just breathe through my nose. It turns out it's totally possible, like all this time I just thought that was impossible, like God didn't make us that way, and it's actually improving how I feel when I run and the running that I'm able to do. So I am surprised, I, I'm shocked by all this, and it's just as simple as understanding breath. Who would've guessed.  [00:16:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, I've heard it's a great book. I, I, I. It never ceases to amaze that the, the more we look at the human body, the more we look at God's creation, the more we see the fingerprints of our creators. So not, not  [00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: Sounds like a great book. I can't recommend it from personal experience, uh, although I've heard very good things.  [00:17:12] Reading Matthew 21 [00:17:12] Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, I think we should probably just get into it because this is now week three of, uh, one week episode and, uh, we want to wanna dig in and we wanna wrap it up so we can move on to the next best thing out there, which is of course, the parables of Christ. [00:17:26] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get some. So I'm gonna read for us starting in verse 40 because if you've been tracking then you've already been with us through the first part of this parable, and it's notoriously or variously called parable the vine growers, or I kinda like the husband men, just because that's fun to say, and you don't get to drop husband men like very often. But vine dressers, vine growers, vine workers, it's all the same. But here's starting in verse 40. This is after Jesus has already explained the parable. He set it up for them and he's gonna bring for the indictment. So Jesus says, and therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to these vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and he will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you never read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord in his, marvelous in our eyes. Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they were guarding him to be a prophet.  [00:18:48] Irony Blind Leaders [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, that, that last little section here is just such, it's like dripping with such irony,  [00:18:53] Jesse Schwamb: so good  [00:18:54] Tony Arsenal: that like they, they are so blinded by their own, um, I dunno, ambition isn't, maybe isn't even the right word, but something in that, that neighborhood, they're so blinded by their desire to. Maintain their own status quo, their own uh, their own status. That they fear the crowds because the crowds hold them to be a prophet,  [00:19:15] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:19:16] Tony Arsenal: When in reality, like there is a prophet in their midst and much more than a prophet, uh, and they can't see it because of their own blindness. So I'm stoked to get into it. This is such, like we said, this is such a, like on the nose, paril, it's crazy. This is so much like, you know, Nathan's, you are the man kind of parable. Like yes, that's right, except there never is a, you are the man moment for them. They never get it, which is. Stunning. Like I, I, it just sort of is like, I don't even know what to make of that. [00:19:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There is like a wild blindness. I've been thinking about that a lot in our past conversations, but it culminates here. These chief priests and elders, I would say strangely, but I think that this is probably true of all of us, and maybe especially me, perhaps not yet, like perceiving themselves to be the vine growers here in view, they render this verdict of severe justice. It seems like you, you wanna say to them? Like, guys, guys, pull up, hold up a second. Yeah. Take a step back before you overreact here, because you're about to condemn yourselves and in the Greek here, this expression like, miserably destroy these wicked men. Or it gets like this double wretched in our translations. Mostly he will bring those wretches to a wretched end. It's this rhetorical intensification. It's incredible. And I, I think there's at least like two truths here. That come to my mind. One is, we've talked about before, but is in line with what you're saying, that the natural conscience, when not even aware of its own complicity, can still discern the justice of God's judgments. So here are these men who are so prone almost, I think what Calvin says elsewhere, like that we have this hidden impulse to identify with justice. Even when we can't see that we are the ones perpetrating something of injustice, still we can't help but cry out. We can't even help but identify it. And here they. Accurately identify it. And even though they're putting themselves exactly in the cross here, they cannot help but basically cry out that how egregious this behavior is of these vine growers that Jesus has basically, you know, created in this hypothetical environment, even still there, they're filled with rage and the rage gets turned on them. So the Pharisees here, of course, function as this unwitting witness to the righteousness of God's wrath against covenant breakers, even though they, they don't see it.  [00:21:29] Kingdom Transfer Talk [00:21:29] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, the second thing I think that comes to my mind, and maybe this is like more to the point, is that. The verse foreshadows this transfer of the kingdom from the Jewish nation to a new people that would bring forth its fruits, which I realize if I bring that up right now, that we've just committed to like six episodes just on that topic probably. But yeah, but like, we're gonna have to come to it because there's so much here. And the phrase of this, like, let out his vineyard unto other vine growers or husbandman, it does to me like anticipate this calling of the Gentiles and the formation of the Christian Church and in, in this way. It's not to me. The abandonment of the elect, remnant of Israel, but it is like the breaking off of the natural branches and then this engrafting of the wild olive shoots that come through like Allah, Romans 11. So it's, it's not like from one nation to another simply, but from like the carnal seed to a spiritual seed gathered out of all the nations, that that's wild. Right? I, I think that's all in view here. And it's like a kind of a crazy thing to say. It's certainly like a wild thing to say, no pun intended. And I imagine like, unexpected thing to say.  [00:22:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:22:40] Supersessionism Clarified [00:22:40] Tony Arsenal: Let's think about that a little bit because I think too, there's, there's almost an element of, um. Man, I'm gonna get a lot of flack for saying this. You're, there's almost like a legitimate replacement theology here, right? Like replacement theology. I got covenant theology, you know, reformed, um, reformed theology often gets slandered as, you know, supersessionism or replacement theology, uh, with this idea that like, it's, it's interest. Uh, you have to have dispensational presuppositions for that phrase to even make sense because like the reformed paradigm is that there is one people of God full stop. And yes, like the identity of the one people of God seems to sort of like morph from the Jewish national people to now like Jews and Gentiles and actually predominantly Gentiles in the scope of like the whole history of the church. But what I mean by this is like, there's a visible church in the Old Testament, in the old, under the old Covenant, and the visible church under the old covenant is the national people of, of Israel. Right. By and large. Right. Um, and there are, there are sort of like Gentile, um, Clingons, not like the Star Trek people, but like gentile, like attachments to that throughout the history of, of Old Testament, um, theology. Um. That visible, that visible identification of this is the people of God being the Jewish people. Uh, these are the people that are the vineyard, the, they're the, the owner or the tenants of the vineyard or the, the visible Jewish people of the geopolitical nation of Israel under the old covenant that does sort of like get superseded by the church in the church age, in the new covenant,  right?  [00:24:24] Tony Arsenal: But where, where Supersessionism or the accusation of Supersessionism goes wrong is that there is this distinction between the visible and invisible church. And that distinction is what prevents us from being like, sort of like true replacement theologians in the way that the, the dispensationalist wanna paint us. So I, I think you're right that there is a lot to say here about the fact that, um, and, and this is where it gets, um. We have to be careful systematically. Right. God, God doesn't have to pivot. He doesn't have like a plan B. It's not like the Gentiles are the plan B, but there is a sense in almost in which the way that this is presented, the way that it appears in the scriptures is actually, yeah, there is almost like this plan B, like there is the geopolitical ethnic people of, of Israel, the Jewish people under the old covenant. And, and they don't do what they're supposed to do. They don't follow the terms of their covenant. They don't accept the kingdom that is bequeathed to them under the terms of the old covenant. And they, they reject that kingdom because of a disobedience. And, and I think what Christ here is narrowing in on is it's not just disobedience, right? It's not sort of like, um, accidental ancillary disobedience. It's not generalized disobedience. It is this sort of like usurpation of God's rightful status as the ruler and king of the nation. That's right. The the people, the, the Pharisees. And the chief priests and the scribes and the Sadducees, they want to be the rulers of the nation. They want to, they, they seem to wanna take the place of God, at least as far as Christ is presenting it. In this, they wanna usurp the kingdom. They want to take the heirs, uh, rightful inheritance, and they want to claim it for themselves. That is not a generalized disobedience, it's a special t type of covenant unfaithfulness that causes God to causes and kind of air quotes that causes God to hand over the kingdom to another people. Right. Partially, I think, uh, we don't need to get into Romans, the Romans 11 stuff, but partially I think because that's actually the way that he's going to ultimately save the Jewish people, right, is by sort of making, making them jealous of the Gentiles. Like there's a, there's a real element of that, that the salvation of the Gentiles is actually for, in some sense is for or unto the salvation of the Jewish people or the, the faithful Jewish remnant that's all here. And, and you can't really get past that in this parable. Um, this is why I think a, a lot of dispensationalist, um, uh, some of the classic dispensational sources would actually see like this, this is not for the Jewish church. This, this is for the Gentiles. This is actually part of the parentheses, um. You know, and, and again, dispensationalist divide all that stuff up differently, but this is a really interesting section for us to talk about that we can't, we can't just gloss over that. [00:27:11] Jesse Schwamb: I certainly don't mean to imply that it's wild because it's unexpected. I think it's wild because interestingly, the Pharisees, the teachers here, they challenge Jesus authority and his response to that is to challenge their covenant faithfulness.  [00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:27:25] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not just if he turns it around, he uses this opportunity to explain what's going to happen to them as those who are, like you said, were supposed to be representative. And I think critically like the qualifying phrase. That that's using the text here, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. That's like really important because these new vine growers are characterized by their fruitfulness. So this is not like a doctrine of works righteousness, but it's evidential fruit. And that's why, and I had to look this up and the Westminster Confession confession, chapter 16, good works are quote the fruits and evidences of true and lively faith, which I love. I was trying to find that language true and lively faith. So the visible church under that new administration is identified by the fruits of repentance, faith, and obedience worked out by the Holy Spirit. Again, I think that's all that is in view here, that that's a lot to say. But you know, famously, like you've kind of intimated, when we go back to the Old Testament, even we find when the Israelites leave triumphantly from Egypt, that they're accompanied by those outside of Israel. We find that other characters like Grh who continually want to identify with a Yahweh whom God is saving and drawing onto himself and here is kind. Him, Jesus, at least representing as the son of God. That kind of cli climactic view. Speaking from the prophet register again saying, this is what I was saying to Abraham. I said, like from your seed, all these nations in this spiritual sense will be gathered out. So there'll be a single nation as it were in Christ. And even now, I'm telling you, I'm breaking down those boundaries. But I think to your point, importantly Tony, in part because you have failed in the covenant promises and you who were to represent and to heed and to lead, have fallen down. And so now you're gonna trip over this stone and it's going to crush you. And as a result of that, the vine, the vine growers will be, or the vineyard itself will be turned over to those who bear this true and lively fruit.  [00:29:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:29:23] Israel Failure Remnant [00:29:23] Tony Arsenal: There's an interesting, um. There's an interesting dynamic here that actually strikes me as kind of similar. It's a little bit more opaque, but similar to, uh, like Joseph in, uh, in Egypt, right when his brothers come and he says, you meant this for evil, but God meant it for good. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's an element of here, we've talked about the parables. That's sort of like systematic theology in story form. Um, there's a reality here that it's both true, that God always intended for the kingdom to be expansive and, and to expand beyond the nation of Israel. To be this universal, global lowercase c Catholic, universal church universal in the sense that it's not bound by any particular nation, by any particular geopolitical reality. Um. That's true, but it's also true that the reason, uh, on a sort of like horizontal level that that's true is that Israel failed. Right? It so God always intended for Israel to fail, yet Israel is responsible for the fact that they failed. Yes, that's right. Um, and, and, and again, we, we, we sort of commented on this before, like there are some in our broader reformed circles that turn this into a sort of antisemitism, like a sort of hatred for the Jewish people. And I don't think, I don't think that there's any warrant in scripture for that. In fact, I think scripture speaks strongly against that. Is that, um. Not necessarily because there's any particular unique special affection that God has for Israel, like, like the modern Jewish people, but, but that, like racism in general is prohibited by the Bible. But I think where we do need to be clear though, is that there is a real failure. It's a true, genuine failure on the part of the first century Jewish. Leaders and people, um, with a faithful remnant. Right? There was, um, we're, we're getting, you know, we're in the springtime and we've already had, uh, we've already had discussions about this. We've already done Easter, but like there is always conversations around Palm Sunday of like, are the crowds that are following Jesus into, into town screaming, you know, yelling, Hosanna? Is that the same crowds that are yelling crucify him a couple days later? Um, I tend to think like, no, like actually, like the people who are saying crucified, crucify Christ are probably like the Jews who live in Jerusalem or like the, primarily the religious leaders. There's a whole host of Jewish believers and kind of the hoy pallo, the, the people out in the country that absolutely follow Jesus. Like they follow him as the Messiah. They, they confess him in many cases. They convince him to be, um, they confess him to be God, to to be the savior, to be the, the figure from Daniel seven, the son of man. Um. There's a reality in which the Jewish remnant absolutely recognize Christ and they persist in the church, right? The earliest Christians were all Jews, and you know, there was a few Gentiles along the way, you know, and maybe not even Gentiles like Samaritans. I don't even know if you would call them gentiles. They're kind of this midway point, but in Jewish gentil. But there are people throughout Christ's ministry, right? Cornelius or not Cornelius, the Centurion recognizes that this is the son of God. Like there are people, the s Phoenician woman, there are people who are not part of Israel proper, who even in the, in the midst of Christ's ministry are recognizing him as God and as Messiah and as the savior of the world. But, but by and large, the earliest Christian movement was Jewish people. It was the faithful remnant of, of Israel who recognized that their Messiah had come. That is true. And at the same time. The, probably the majority, and especially the rulers and the leaders of the Israel, you know, the Jewish faith in the first century absolutely rejected him. And this is what I, this is what I think is wild, is I think sometimes we think that, um, the prophecies and the understanding of Christ and what the messiah, who the Messiah was to be and what to expect, we think of those as like super obscured and super hidden until Christ comes and then all of a sudden they're really obvious. Christ doesn't seem to treat them that way. Right? Right. He tells this parable and they rightly identify that, and this is a, this is such a thinly veiled parable. Like this is like, you killed the prophets. You're going to kill me. And there's going to be consequences. Like he practically says that outright. Um. He treats that as like they should obviously know this, right? The, have you never read in the scriptures, the stone, the builder rejected has become the cornerstone, right? This was the lord's doing. It is, and it is marvelous in their eyes that have you never read?  [00:34:06] Decree in Rejection [00:34:06] Tony Arsenal: That is a, that's a rhetorical question with the implied answer of, of course, you've read exactly like he's not, he's not teaching them something that he anticipated is new to them. He maybe is teaching them something that he anticipated they maybe you didn't recognize. But actually I think probably like, uh, there probably were many among them that were like, oh yeah, we are doing this. But then almost like we're powerless to stop themselves from moving forward in that.  [00:34:32] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:34:32] Tony Arsenal: Sort of like wicked plan. [00:34:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah. And I think we could extend that as well to say that this rejection of Christ by this Jewish leadership, which of course was a incredible failure, like you're saying, it wasn't an accident, it wasn't an unforeseen tragedy. So just like interestingly in Acts four in his sermon where Peter quotes from the same Old Testament passage about Christ being the cornerstone, you know, it was prophesied long before. And so the doctrine of God's eternal decree, I think finds v vivid illustration even here. This is all the Lord's doing. Yeah. And even the wicked rejection of the Messiah is serving this purpose, this sovereign purpose of God's great exaltation. And so it's fascinating, and we should marvel at the fact that, again, like God means what he says when he says like He uses what is weak to overcome that which is strong, or to embarrass the strong, he uses that which seems foolish. To make the wise themselves, the ones who are actually foolish in the same way.  [00:35:29] Cornerstone Unites Church [00:35:29] Jesse Schwamb: This very stone, which men in their malice cast aside on that day. God is in his wisdom setting as this chief cornerstone. And I love like that idea of this phrase, this head of the corner denoting that amazing preeminence of Christ, that Christ is not merely included in the building of the new Covenant church. He is its chief and constituent stone that joining together both like the Jew and the Gentile, finally into one structure. And that's really, I think to your point, that's the great mystery of the hidden ages from the past. That that's the thing which Christ is bringing to like this grand display, like out on the stage in the open, in front of everybody. He's drawing it up, he's calling it to account. And so in that way, the same Jesus that was rejected by men is in God's account of inestimable value. And that should be like, I think, familiar to most of us because like there a form tradition has always insisted that. The true theology always issues in doxology and the cross and exaltation of Christ are not merely these facts, which we give these intellectual ascent, but we, we confess them as mysteries which provoke us to adoration of who God is. It's the excellency of Christ expounding at length, like the wondrous conjunction of Christ's humiliation and his exaltation, which finds its pattern here, rejected by men, glorified by God.  [00:36:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:52] Works Covenant Failures [00:36:52] Tony Arsenal: And, and this is, um, we, we commented in our first, uh, episode on this par ball. This is not isolated to just the rulers of Israel at the time of Christ, right? This is in reality, kind of like a reflection of every failure of the covenant of works. In some sense, every failure to hold the covenant of works boils down to an attempt to make oneself, God. Right. This was Adam's failure in the garden. Um, Eve, Eve was the first person to eat the fruit, but Adam, Adam was responsible for that and he, he also ate the fruit and they, they did so in part because they thought it was useful to make them like God and, and in an illegitimate fashion. And they knew it was an illegitimate fashion. It's not as though Adam and Eve suddenly were like, maybe we can eat the fruit. Maybe like we actually are fine to do it. Like they knew it was still forbidden. Right. They did it anyways. And the Pharisees here, um, are in a real attempt. Um, they are trying to take the role of Messiah for the people. They're trying to be the savior of the people in sort of shepherding and guiding them into this like. Ultra legalistic Puritan, like puritanical in the worst sense, um, kind of approach to the law. Um, this is the, the story of Old Testament Israel, right? What is the first thing that the Israelites do? Um, at Mount Sinai? The first thing they do is try to fashion gods so that they have a tame God that they can control and that they can actually be God's over. So I think this is really key and, and this is where it becomes practical for us, is that. I think we always are faced with a choice, right? There's, there's obviously those who are Christ, who the son is set free. He's set free indeed, and they will never not be his people. Like you never become not justified. If you were justified, you always forever more are justified. Justified is a final. It's, it's the future judgment of God's people dragged and dropped into the present and applied. It's the righteousness of Christ applied. So there, there's never a time where that righteousness is like removed or unapplied, but we are constantly faced with a choice as to whether we want to be the kind of people who render our fruit unto the Lord, uh, as the faithful, the sort of the implied faithful tenants that are going to be brought forward when the, the unfaithful tenants are replaced. Or do we wanna be the people that reap wicked fruit and keep for ourselves? And I think that's, that's really the thing. Like we're either gonna rep. Fruit of wickedness, or we're gonna reap fruit of righteousness. And the only thing to do with fruit of righteousness is surrender it to the Lord. But we often are faced with that choice, like, are we gonna reap our own wicked fruit and keep it all to ourselves right, uh, to our own detriment? Or are we gonna go ahead and be the faithful tenants that give the Lord what he deserves?  [00:39:46] Kingdom Transfer Explained [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're seeing so much of the simplicity of God here that like you and I have said so many times before that his loving kindness, his long suffering ness is his righteousness, is his justice, is his wrath. And so I think it's helpful, again, to remind ourselves that we're, we are talking, or he specifically is speaking of the kingdom of God here. And again referring to this visible administration of the covenant of grace, not to the inward and invisible kingdom of saving grace, which as you just said, can never be lost from those who possess it, which by the way is a really important distinctive of reform theology. There are many that would disagree with that statement, and I think really much to their harm in, in disagreement with the scriptures themselves, this one in particular, but it is this external administration, the privileges, the ordinances, the oracles of God. That is being transferred from the Jewish nation as a corporate body to a new and broader people of God. And because I know that sounds very extreme, I did look up Calvin and his commentary on this and let me read what he says because this is interesting. I think even this could possibly mis be misunderstood. But here's Calvin who can say it better than I. He says, quote by these words, he means that God would deprive the Jews of the honor and the privilege of being his peculiar people and would call the Gentiles that out of them he might form a church end quote. And going back to what you said earlier, I'm with you. I, I. I mean, this is not, I think as some have wrongly concluded, like replacement theology in like a wooden sense. I, I see this still as like this historical redemptive transition from the typological administration of the old covenant to the eschatological fulfillment of the new. And the elect remnant of Israel is not cast off, but the national like typological privileges are being transferred to the Catholic church, gathered from all nations. And in that, I really do see this wonderful confluence of God's loving kindness, his, his fidelity to the promises that he's made and his wrath being manifested all at once. And somehow Jesus, of course, in complete perfection, can bring that all to bear in this tiny little story.  [00:41:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And and isn't it just like the master teacher to like, put all of this baked into this? I mean, that's right. We think of this as like a long parable, like I think,  [00:42:02] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: I think like it's, it's amazing how we think of parables as, you know, like this is a short one. A short one is a couple sentences, a long one is like a half a dozen sentences. Like, and of course like Christ is teaching broader than this. He's teaching more than this. Just, this is what's recorded by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is what Matthews preserved for us.  [00:42:22] Stone Breaks or Crushes [00:42:22] Tony Arsenal: But you're right, there's so much baked into this little parable and I think, um, there's something to be said about this idea of like. Not only do those who smash against the, the rock, the, the cornerstone, those who smash against the rock, like those who who fall on the rock are broken to pieces, but also the rock falls on others and smashes them to pieces. Right? And, and there's something to be said about the fact that, and I'm not exactly sure how I wanna articulate this, but it's only those who like recognize the proper place of the rock and don't either let it fall on them or don't smash themselves against it. You know, we always joke about like running through a wall. Like this is not a wall you're gonna run through. Like you're gonna smash into this wall and it's gonna crush you. And if you are, if you're not properly assigning the cornerstone it's placed, right? The cornerstone is, is the stone that's placed in the foundation of a building that all the other stones find their orientation and their proper alignment based on. [00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:43:26] Tony Arsenal: You might think of this sometimes. I've heard this articulated as like the, the arch stone. I think it's a little bit different than that. Um, but it, the, the idea is the same, right? Like there's a stone in an arch. If you think of like a classic Roman arch, you have these piles of stones until you put the final arch stone in. That, in that stone is what makes the arch stable. Until that point, either side can fall, but if you don't properly set that arch stone where it's supposed to be, then the whole thing is gonna crush you. It's gonna fall down on top of you at some point. I think this is a little different. This is the cornerstone of a, this is more like the cornerstone of a building. This is the stone that the rest of the building, building is oriented against and is aligned with. If you get that wrong, then you have a, you have like a crooked wall, a wall that's not set, that's not straight. It's not stable. What this is saying and what this, this prophecy right from, from Psalm one 10, I think I should probably look it up, but I haven't yet. But this prophecy that Christ is referring to this, this prophetic statement in the Psalms that he's assuming the audience is familiar with, right? I think that's a really important point. Like he's not only assuming that they're familiar with it, there's rhetorical force of kind of like, of course you understand this principle that there is a cornerstone coming. There is something or someone who is coming that all other things will be measured against. And if you're either in alignment with this, with this person who is coming or you're out of alignment with reality, this thing is understood by them. It just is so critical and I think like the, the, a lot of the parables don't have explanations built into them. Some of them do. We've talked about some of them. A lot of them don't, this one does, but it's kind of like a really surprising way to explain it. And there's so much, um, the more that I look at this, the more we talk about it, this really is so similar to David and Nathan, right? Right. When with the, the affair with Bathsheba, he is saying to the Pharisees, look, you're the man. Like, you're the one here. You're the guy. You guys are the wicked tenants that are gonna, you've killed the prophets. Right? Um, I'm losing my, my timeline a little bit, but John the Baptist either had been executed or would be executed shortly at this point, right? So like the, the most recent prophet either was already killed or, or Christ knew of course he was going to be killed. Um, he's saying, look, you guys are the ones that are doing this and you're going to kill me. Right. And this is obviously what the prophecy is, that you think you're going to come against the cornerstone, but in reality you're going to shatter yourself upon me. You think you're gonna come against me, I'm going to crush you. And rather than say, you know, as ba, you know, as David does, where he repents, he, he fasts and he, he refuses to eat. He's, he's in mourning over both the loss of his infant, but, but more so over his own sin, I think is the picture the text gives us. Um, he's mourning trying to uh, sort of like reverse God's decision, but there's a genuine repentance to it, right? That's where we get Psalm 51, like creating, clean me a clean heart, oh God, renew a right spirit in me. There's none of that for the Pharisees, there's none of that for the sadist of the chief priests. They just continue to smash themselves against this rock, not recognizing that it's actually the rock that is crushing them. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, it's a bit like, I'm gonna speak like a little maybe beyond my depth here, but there's a little bit of like that Nathan, like Strategem, and then this is where I'm outside my own experience. And then a little bit like maybe like WWE the rock in terms of like. If you want some come and get some, right? It's a little of both. And of course the passage ends very tragically, well ends humorously by them, you know, saying that at some point they were like, they understood in these parables, again, this is one of three of the same kind of topic of variety, but that Jesus was referring to them, which is funny. You wanna be like, yeah, it took a, took a long enough, I guess, guys, but you finally got it. But then that last sentence of like, they still sought to kill him. So to your point, even after all of this, there wasn't repentance. And we do get these, I think, two very distinct judgements that are depicted here, which you've already kinda led us into this first, like, whoever shall fall on the stone shall be broken. You know, to me, I think that's invoking this idea that in this life, there we are, we can be brought to brokenness through the gospel and to fall upon Christ. And repentance. And faith is to be broken in self, in pride and self-righteous. It's a breaking that does lead to healing. But this second judgment, you know the one, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder, grind him to dust, I mean. Man, think about what a vivid image that is. I mean, that's like the more terrible of the two. That that's like the, yeah. Final Es logical judgment of those who persist in unbelief and it, it admits there's like no remedy. So there are only two ways to relate to Christ. You either fall upon him willingly in faith and repentance, which is painful, but it is saving, you know, to have him fall upon us in judgment is final in damning, and so that's what Christ presents here. [00:48:48] Psalm 118 in Context [00:48:48] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's both of these things and you're right, it is brilliant that he goes to Psalm one 18 even that as a setup, because as you've kind of already said, I love to think, of course that's, can you manner the tone in which this was said to these scribes and Pharisees? Because of course the, the secondary indictment here is like, listen, you guys who like your great pride is that, you know, the scriptures really well. Have you read this part is familiar to you. Yeah. Can you tell me where that is? So like, we, we should go there just, just quickly. This is Psalm one 18 because I think that here again is, as I'm hearing it in context. There are some verses surrounding this that I think we might be surprised that they come right on the heels of this idea of the stone. So just a couple verses. In Psalm one 18 being in verse 22, the stone, which the builders rejected, has become the chief cornerstone. This is from Yahweh. It is marvelous in our eyes. Here's the verses that we might not recognize. Come right after it. This is the day which Yahweh has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. Oh, Yahweh, save. Oh, Yahweh, succeed. Blessed is the one who comes in the name of Yahweh. We have blessed you from the house of Yahweh. Yahweh is God, and he has given us light by the festival sacrifice with corns to the horns of the altar. You are my God, and I give thanks to you. You are my God, and I exalt you. Give thanks to Yahweh for his good, for his loving kindness endures forever. And so this idea that there's rejoicing in which day, I mean, usually we kinda say that it's like, well, it's a beautiful day out. It's the Lord's day. This is the day that Yahweh is like that. That's true. But also here in particular, it is this blessed day of Yahweh giving the stone, which the builders reject and which has become the chief cornerstone. And that stone is some will run headlong into and shipwreck their lives and others will be crushed underneath it. And guess what? This is the day which Yahweh has made and we're gonna rejoice and be glad in that.  [00:50:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:50:43] Mark's Angle on Fear [00:50:43] Tony Arsenal: The other thing I think, you know, we. Should, um, maybe not spend any time on, 'cause we're at like, out, like minute 50 of a 60 minute podcast. But just going to, to Mark's version of this parable real quick. Um, starting in verse, uh, this is chapter 12, verse 12. It says, and they were seeking to arrest him, but feared the people for, they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away. And the, the main difference here, the reason I'm reading this is Mark chooses a d. Concerning them. The verb is, or the preposition is Perry. So it's kind of like this idea that he was, he was sort of speaking around them. He was talking about them. Mark uses the, the preposition, proce, which is not, um, not against, in like the same, uh, direct sense. We might use the word against. That would be something like Kada. Um, but he's, he's speaking this parable towards them or to them, um, against them. He's, he's directing the parable at them. And this is, this is, we, we commented on this a little bit in the, the first episode here. Um, he is speaking to the crowds. But he's telling the parable about or against or concerning the Pharisees and the scribes, and they perceive this, right. The, the gospels here don't say that the crowds perceive this. Right. And I think that's key. Like the Pharisees basically look at this and say, uh, we better get this under control because he's talking about us. Right, right. Like, I'm just picturing Paul Washer's. I'm not trying to say Paul Washer is a Pharisee, although some people would probably make that connection. But like I'm, I'm just hearing Paul Washer's voice saying like, I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. He's speaking to the Pharisees here. And it's interesting because Matthew associates the, the, uh, Pharisees. Cowardice in acting against Christ, uh, because they fear the crowds and because the crowds believe Christ is a parable or is a prophet Mark associates. And again, both of these things are true, right? This is holy scripture. This is inspired, these are not contradictory accounts. This is facets of the same diamond. Mark associates this with, they fear the crowds. Um, because they had taken him. They, they understood that the parable was being spoken against them, right? So there's this element that the Pharisees are not only understanding that the, the parable is about them, they feared them because the crowds believe that Christ is a prophet and that prophet is speaking this parable against them, right? So like they're, they're recognizing full on that it's only a matter of time before the, the general population, the general people that are listening to Christ recognize that he's overturning. Not only the Pharisees, the entire geopolitical nation of Israel, he's overturning the ethnic based reality, the geopolitical based reality, that God's people have a zip code and that zip code is Jerusalem. That zip code is this little si, this little tract of land the size of like Vermont and New Hampshire in the Mediterranean, like off the Mediterranean Sea. He's overturning that. And the, the Pharisees, the educated people, the, the Sadducees, the chief priests, the rulers, they recognize it's only a matter of time before the people understand what Christ is doing. They, they follow him as a prophet and this is what he's prophesying. And rather than, rather than, um. You know, I think of like Nicodemus or Joseph Ram that are like part of this class of people that actually seem to get it rather than go, okay, he's doing it, he's doing the thing. We better get on board. They just continue to smash their heads against this wall.  [00:54:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes,  [00:54:52] Tony Arsenal: they just continue to bash themselves against the rock of ages and rather than learn, rather than submit to this, they shatter themselves and they crush themselves. [00:55:01] Submitting as Cornerstone [00:55:01] Tony Arsenal: And I guess this is where, I don't know, maybe this is like the Puritan turn in me, like I guess this is where I want to say like, how often are we smashing ourselves against Christ, right? Instead of submitting to him that I think if, if we want to take a, a practical turn here, that's really what we need to look at. Again, no one who is truly justified. No one who is truly. Uh, converted who, who has true faith and trust in Christ. I am not in the business of stealing away the insur, the assurance of Christians. That is not my thing. Assurance is the right and privilege and inheritance of every Christian full stop. Right  [00:55:35] Jesse Schwamb: on.  [00:55:35] Tony Arsenal: Right. It is of the essence of faith. It's just not so of the essence of faith that it can't be shaken. That's what the Westminster Confession teaches, right? But the reality is that we can continue to smash our heads against that rock. We can continue to, to look at the cornerstone and say like, ah, maybe I'm the cornerstone. Maybe I'm the measure of, of righteousness. Maybe I'm the one that measures whether or not God's law applies here. Eh, I don't know. Like Christ seems to say that if you're gonna set yourself up as the cornerstone, if you're gonna try to take the inheritance for your own, that's not gonna go well for you. And even as c, even as Christians who are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and have faith in Christ, and who ultimately will be saved from our own foolishness and folly, ah, we still, that still is not gonna go well for us if we are not gonna be able to submit to, to Christ as the cornerstone and the, the, the stone that aligns all things and makes all, every, all other things straight, all other things, regular, all other things, right? That, that's what the cornerstone does. So this is not only just a parable, but what would happen, uh, or I should say the parable is about what happens when this particular group of people tries to set themselves up as the cornerstone, the application and where Christ takes this application is like, I think it's broader than that. It is applied to this particular people. But when we look at it, we go, well man, I really don't want to be like those Pharisees when, when they do this.  [00:56:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:57:00] Fear of Man Exposed [00:57:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, practically speaking, I think those concluding verses, they definitely demonstrate again this profound sovereignty of God, at least the doctrine of God's providential restraint of evil. Until this sour was come, no man could lay a hand on Christ, and it was the fear of the people, which was the means by which God preserved his son until they appointed time of his sacrificial death. That's fascinating because the Pharisees were free agents in their wickedness. They were bound by sovereign decree until the father's hour arrived for his own son, and so I would say as well, maybe one of the profound things I've been thinking about that we can draw out of this for a practical application is that it seems to me demonstrated here and elsewhere that the fear of man, rather than the fear of God is shown to dominate. Wicked. That's always the way it is. Yeah. So this idea of not submitting ourselves to Christ, I think one of the ways that we can find that we can move ourselves by God's grace, by the power of the Holy Spirit into increasing levels of submission is to understand where our fear lies. If our fear is in God himself, we're trusting ourselves completely to him, then I think we know that we're more aligned. If we tend to find ourselves fearing man on various ways, which we're gonna be prone to do because we're sinful, I think that is a wake up call to understand that that is what dominates the perspective and the worldview and the purview of the wicked. In the same way. To go back to you bringing up Joseph again, this reminds me of, you know, when Joseph brothers, they go and visit him, they take the green back, and I, I, for some reason, I find this scene funny. I'm sure it's not funny, but they open up the sacks in the head of the sacks, they find all of their money returned, and I, I guess I would be the same way, but instead of like being like, well that is weird. That seems like a really innocent and weird mistake. How do they react? They're like I told you, it's because now what's being paid back to us is because we sold Joseph to slavery. Yeah. Like the wicked always looks over their shoulder. They're always fearful of man. And so the multitudes recognition of Jesus as a prophet while. Inadequate because of, certainly he's more than a prophet, is yet a witness to the testimony of the spirit working through the works in the words of Christ here. But that is not enough. Like we said before, the drawing that Jesus was doing was to the common people who hurt him gladly. It was to the sinners who recognize that he spoke with authority and who are willing to submit themselves because they perhaps were the ones that understood what it meant to be broken, that they needed healing and that they recognized that they were already broken, but that they wanted to come before the rock who could break them wide open, as it were, to do the complete and full restorative healing that only he could provide. And so, you're right, it is like the blessing and the promise and the right of God's children to call out to God in humility for this kind of healing. That only he can do. And by healing really, I mean like the giving of eternal life, the, the true saving of the inner man, that selfish part of ourselves, which wants to rebel just like the Pharisees, which is willing to condemn ourselves with that Nathan, like Strategem, and yet to refuse to see that it is in fact ourselves. Who are we speaking about? It is that kind of Christ and Savior that we need so that we can then get to Romans eight and say there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because he is the rock of ages, the cleft for me. So I, I agree with you. This is that we've said it before in other ways. This is the one wall you cannot run through. When you come up against this stone, you're not just gonna bounce off. You're gonna be pulverized, and you don't want this stone coming against you and crushing you and grinding you into powder, as it were in that final ESOL judgment. So the call, the clearing call, loved ones, as you've said, Tony, is to examine yourself to see whether or not you are into faith to test and see what you're doing with this one who has been laid as the cornerstone. [01:00:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [01:00:53] Wrap Up and Next Parable [01:00:53] Tony Arsenal: Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap it up. Uh, although we're not really wrapping it up, because next week when we come back in, we're gonna be talking about, uh, the parable of the wedding feast in, uh, chapter 22.  [01:01:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [01:01:07] Tony Arsenal: Which, uh, is in many ways the same parable with a slightly different angle. And, and I think this is, this is part of, like, I initially wanted to say, like, this is a, this is a softer version of the parable, but as you were speaking, I was kind of like glancing through it, kind of getting ready to jump in here. And it's not really all that much softer. It's a different angle, right. It's a different perspective on the same basic truth. So th this is just like Christ as the master teacher, right? He doesn't just leave the Pharisees with his one, uh. It's obviously not ambiguous what he's saying, but he gives them no excuse because he tells them the same basic parable three times in a row just to make sure that they get it just so that their condemnation is just, so we will put a pin in that and we will come back to that next week. And Jesse, this is such a great series that I've just really enjoyed working through. And you know, it's funny because when we talk offline, we're kind of like, why don't we just talk about the Bible more? Um, I love systematic theology. I love doing church history stuff. Me too. And I think those are all really, really important and valuable. But there's something very sweet and, and something about like the episodes planned themselves and write themselves and do themselves, like when we're just talking about the scriptures. So I've really enjoyed working through the parables. I've really enjoyed the feedback that we're getting. Um, I do some Google Analytics stuff on our podcast episodes. We don't use the. Uh, I'll toss our episode statistics into Google or into to Google Gemini and ask it to analyze it. This parable series has been easily our most, uh, our most downloaded and most, um, accessed series in all time. Um, when you look at the way that podcast statistics are calculated, there's a, there's a weird little thing that happens that coincides both with COVID, uh, and also with some changes in the ways podcast statistics are calculated, um, that everybody saw a huge drop in their statistics, um, around, you know, 20 22, 20 23. But when you account for that blip, this, this series has been well received, better. Received than any other, uh, content we've ever provided, which is saying a lot. 'cause we've had some really popular series, some really, uh, really widespread series. So this one has hit a nerve and I'm really, really, really feeling it. I'm really, really here for it.  [01:03:29] Community and Support [01:03:29] Tony Arsenal: So if Jesse, if other people are here and they're feeling it and they wanna let us know about that, how would they do that?  [01:03:35] Jesse Schwamb: Well, we know they're feeling it. So really what you need to do is come hang out with us. And the best way to do that is we have a little corner of the internet through an app called Telegram, where there's a bunch of listeners, brothers and sisters from all around the globe who are dialoguing with each other, with us, about the episodes, about all kinds of topics. So you've heard it enough from us. So we're just saying to you, why not now? Why not now? Why not you? So if you wanna come find that place, all you have to do is go to your favorite browser and go to t Me Reform Brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood. One more time. For those of you Baptist, in the back, in the pew still t me slash reform brotherhoodhood. [01:04:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and it's a great little place to come hang out, um, per constantly. Actually, I think one of the most. Busy. The most frequented channels in our group is the prayer request channel, which I love. Right on. Um, people are constantly bringing requests. People are genuinely praying for those requests, often typing out their prayers that they're praying for their brothers and sisters. Um, there's a. Section four charitable baptism discussions, which is actually a charitable discussion that's going on as an ongoing discussion's, a place for memes. There's a place like if you wanna taste an interesting food and take a video of your face when you do it, uh, you can do that. Um, so please do join us. And one last thing, you know, Jesse and I are. Veteran podcasters who do everything wrong. If you're still listening to this, then you're already a faithful listener and we're doing all of the stuff in the wrong order. That's right. Um, there is a small, relatively small group of people who make this podcast possible in a very real sense. Um, you know, there's not a ton of overhead to run a podcast, but there's some, and it's getting more because everything is getting more expensive. And there is a group of people who, um, who faithfully donate each month to allow us to continue podcasting. Um, we had. Some, you know, some technical issues. A while back we had to make a switch to a different, uh, different way for Jesse and I to connect. Uh, there's hosting fees that are getting more expensive If a microphone or a laptop breaks, we need to have funds to cover that. Uh, and so there's a group of people who, who contribute to allow us to be able to do that without having to tap into our personal finances, which is, is a huge blessing. I think we would probably still figure out how to make it work if we had to, but the fact that we don't is a huge blessing. So thank you to those who are contributing financially, and please do consider it if you, if that's something that, you know, you're listening to this and you're going, you know, I benefit from the podcast and I fulfilled my obligations to my local church and my family, and all my bills are paid, and I'd like to do something about it. What you can do is go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood. Uh, you can sign up to do a monthly, uh, donation of any amount. We don't have tears. We're not giving away any special swag at this time. Um, you're not gonna get special access to early podcasts or anything. There's lots of podcasts that do that, and that's great, but that's just not us. Um, but what we're doing is we're making sure that, uh, we're able to continue producing the podcast. If that's something you're interested in, go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood and uh, join the team.  [01:06:37] Final Gospel Warning [01:06:37] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in this whole conversation, and maybe to wrap up this entire parable? Well, it seems clear that the Lordship of Christ established in his threefold role, he's the rejected stone. He's the cornerstone, he's the consuming stone, and the call of the gospel is pressed home in this passage with double urgency. Either we fall upon Christ now and be saved through brokenness, or he will fall upon us then and grind us into everlasting powder. So there's no neutral ground. The vineyard of God is still let out, the fruit is still demanded, loved ones, the cornerstones still laid. Blessed are they who receive him and also get those babies into church.  [01:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Amen to that, Jesse. So until next time, until we come back and continue on this sort of parable trilogy, Jesse, honor everyone  [01:07:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got?  [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um.  [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna,  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild.  [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah,  [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.  [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging.  [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call.  [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?  [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood up and he's like, well, if we're gonna give X, why don't we just give 10 times X instead? And then actually, like the discussion was like, well, is, are we sure that 10 times X is even the right amount? Why don't we have this particular group meet over the lunch break and figure out whether that's the right number and then come back after lunch and we'll vote on it. And then they came back after lunch and it was actually a number that was even greater than 10 times X. So it was like this exercise in like. This very small proposal that was still imminently generous, right? The presbytery has no obligation to do this. There's no obligation from any of the presbyters to stand up and say like, we should. We should supplement this fund. They would've been well within their right, and no one would've looked, I think. I think some people would've been frustrated by it, but I don't think anyone would've looked sideways at it or thought it was sinful. If the presbytery just said like, we can't approve this call. You guys are gonna have to come back with it and we'll vote on it at the next presbytery. Like that would've been problematic. This, this kind of poor guy who's coming outta seminary, his call and his beginning of employment would've been delayed, but like. That would've been good and orderly, but instead they were like, one, we don't want this pulpit to stay empty longer. We don't wanna disadvantage this guy who's just getting done with seminary. We want him to get started. We don't wanna discourage him. So here's a small proposal, a very modest amount of money that we can put forward for this purpose. And then it was like, let's just keep seeing how much closer to a real full-time call we can get. And they finally came back and said like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this in a wise fashion. They structured it. So like the first year he gets more, the second year he gets a little bit less. The third year the church gets a little bit less with the idea that like each year the church should be adjusting their budget to compensate and get this guy to that with the, the hope that like with a full-time minister, they're able to grow their congregation to the point where they can support a full-time minister. So it was just this really cool, super encouraging exercise. And what I loved about it is the only real debate that was going on was about do we need to do more? There was no one being like, wait a second, why are we, why are we putting more money to this? The whole thing was like, is this actually enough to accomplish what we think God wants to do with this person's call? Because if, if God is truly calling this man to this, this particular church, and we believe that he is. Then what do we as a, as a people of God need to do to enable that call to look like what we actually believe calls to ministry are supposed to look like, which is a full-time call to ministry that is undistracted by the cares of the world. What do we need to do? The answer in this case was like, I think we need to put a sizable amount of money to it. Um, it's a, I mean, and again. I'm not gonna say it on the air. It was not a small chunk of change. Um, it was, it was a, it was a large amount of money that was devoted to this cause and that just goes to show how much this body values the importance of a full-time minister of the word, so. [00:16:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:16:51] OPC Love and Recommendation [00:16:51] Tony Arsenal: That's enough about that. I, I could gush about how proud I am to be a part of this body and how encouraged I am and how amazing it was and how awesome this, this guy, how, how much this guy must be thanking God for the providence and like, this is the last thing. I'll say this, this young man younger than me, I think he's graduating seminary. I saw him across the room. He looks like he's probably in his mid twenties, right? Young guy. He's got a wife doesn't have kids yet coming into this ministry, not only is he coming into this ministry, but as a Presbyterian minister, when he's installed as the minister of this church. He will be joining this body of presbyters as the, as his brothers like. He is not a member of the local church. He's a member of the presbytery, which is the regional church. So now he's coming into this fully supported by his brothers in the presbytery that he saw go to the mat to make sure he was properly taken care of, that the congregation was not unintentionally taking advantage of his labor, but also that he knows that all of these men are willing to do what they need to do to make sure that his ministry is successful and edifies the church like that is. Uh, I don't want to gush on Presbyterianism too much, but like that is Presbyterianism at peak form, right? This is the body of elders making sure that every church in the region, even the ones they're not directly ministering in, has what it needs to succeed and to honor God and to do what needs to happen. So I'm affirming the presbytery of New York and New England and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, I have been so blessed by knowing many of these presbyters. I've been so blessed by being a part of the congregation that I am. There are lots of really great churches and really great denominations out there. If you are looking for a church and there is an OPC congregation in your area, absolutely go check it out. I know it feels stuffy sometimes, and I will admit, like sometimes it feels a little bit overly traditional in terms of like just the vibe of the congregation,  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But press past that because I don't think, I don't think you will find, um. You may find lots of congregations that are as faithful. I don't think you're gonna find many that are more faithful than your average OPC congregation. So I could be wrong. I just, I just love the OPC. I just really, really love it. So that's my affirmation. What do you got for us, Jesse?  [00:19:18] Denial Catholic Confession Math [00:19:18] Jesse Schwamb: I think I got denial, which is maybe a little bit unusual for me. [00:19:21] Tony Arsenal: As long as you're not denying the OPCI think we're fine.  [00:19:23] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's, it's not, it is church related and I, I'll try to keep it short 'cause I think I can make this way longer than it, it probably should be, but lemme think how to phrase this. So, I don't know with a devil negative, I guess when I'm a denying against is maybe not enough confession by your own standard. So the, I'm gonna try to make this so brief. I, I just happened to be out with my wife this afternoon and we had to run errands. We got stuck in traffic and this gave me longer than usual to sit in front of our. Very local and very large Catholic church. So I happen to be looking at their sign. It's a very large congregation. I've been actually been in this one on a couple of occasions for funerals. So not only do I know its size and scope, but again, if you get, if you get on this road at the wrong time on the Lord's day, you're gonna be stuck for a long time because there are so many people that attend. I say that because I noticed on the sign that there were three times for mass on the Lord's Day. So that also says something about the number of people coming through. And then on the sign though, underneath it said for confessions, go to our website. Mm-hmm. So I was like, man, I gotta lick this up because I can't tell if they're telling me I can confess on the website or if it's go to the website for the times. And I said to my wife, only half jokingly, if I can confess online, I'm gonna confess something. So I went to, I went to the website and, and sure enough it was almost disappointingly. It was just the times.  [00:20:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:46] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I've found interesting, which just launched me into this like deep rabbit hole. There were three times for confession. Two of those times were just a half an hour, and the third time was an hour. So, uh, what I did was I went through, actually, I think what they had on there was, was three full hours a week. It was a little bit confusing, but I think it was three full hours. Now I think about it. So I went back, I just couldn't help myself, Tony. So I started to think, alright, let's say. I think it's fair to assume  [00:21:15] Tony Arsenal: math, Jesse is kicking in right now. Yes. You're gonna calculate how many minutes per, per person is what you're doing. I'm thinking, ah,  [00:21:22] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it's something like that. So what I thought was, I don't think it's, uh, I was gonna be conservative. I wanna be fair. I wanna be fair. So, and now we should say like, I think most people realize that the Catholic understanding of confession and the Protestant one is, is very different. The Catholic sacrament of confession is the right through which Catholics are gonna confess their sins to a priest receive absolution, and it's gonna restore the relationship with God in the church. And, and they're gonna believe that the priest acts as a person of Christ and is bound by the seal of confession and an absolute kind of obligation. Uh, of course never to reveal what was disclosed during that process. So, by the way, the website that I went to, lovely instructions. I mean, I was like, wow. I was reading it to my wife who was, uh, not familiar with this at all, and she was like, they can make you do stuff. And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, obviously like there's, there's a portion of this where there's contrition or penant penance. It could be a prayer, it could be act of charity, like all kinds of stuff. So I went back and I thought. I don't think it's unreasonable that there's 350 persons that would say, let's say an average, uh, that would wanna take part of confession. Now, let's say that they did that at, at least monthly, just once a month. And, and I don't know how people's conviction is on that, but I'm gonna say conservatively once a month. Let's say that, and I don't think this is unreasonable, Tony, but you tell me. Let's say you're, you're trucking, you're moving through confession. Let's say it's five minutes a piece. So we're up to 1,750 minutes, uh, per month. That's the demand on the priest because I was, I was looking at this time and I was thinking something is strange here to me, so. That was the demand then, and I'll spare you the other math, which could be very long and un uninteresting. I'm coming up with, you'd need 2.24, two and a quarter priests, which of course you can't have a quarter priests or a quarter person for any reason. So you'd hire, you'd hire three priests, which satisfy the demand if, and the major assumptions here, that is like everybody can't show up at the same time. Obviously, I'm assuming that like everybody has their own time, they're spreading it out. So everybody gets the confession, but it's just five minutes. And I, I have no idea. I mean, if you're a Luther, that's certainly not sufficient time.  [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:20] Jesse Schwamb: And you would need three priests. Now here's the thing that I just kind of backed into that, besides like three being like, okay, that, that's, you would need three priests just to satisfy this congregation. If they're confessing for five minutes, once per month. Uh, by the way, if you said, well, half the congregation is going to go weekly, uh, then you, you would double the number of priests you need to 5.98 or six. But here's, here's the bottom line for me. This is why the denial comes in about maybe not enough, is. If you were just to distill that down to like, if you could have one priest cover that time, that there's a demand for like 779.4 hours, or excuse me, minutes of confession, that priest would only be allocating approximately like seven and a half percent of their working hours, their work toward handling confession. This seems like not enough confession given the standards of confession in the Catholic church. And again, I know that I'm, I'm now allocating that to one priest and I just told everybody you need three. That's true. So if you had these three now, if you hired three just to meet the demand, that would only be about like three and a half or a little under three and a half percent of their combined time. So the denial is Catholics, I think, unless I'm way off in some of my assumptions here, you might not be confessing enough by your own standards because  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, that seems like not enough time.  [00:24:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Ritual Faithfulness Explained [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, um. I don't want to be too bombastic here, but I think,  [00:24:46] Jesse Schwamb: I think I already started this on this  [00:24:48] Tony Arsenal: path. Maybe this, maybe this isn't all that bombastic. Um, because this is so much about ritual and actually I say this is gonna sound really, we, we go, but trying to think from the Roman Catholic perspective, it's actually not, and I'll I'll tell you a brief story, uh, to explain it. Um, a lot of Roman Catholics are just going through the motions. [00:25:13] Jesse Schwamb: That's true.  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: But the point, the, the, the point of contention actually is that going through the motions is valuable for the Roman Catholic, right? So I, I knew this, uh, this young woman when I was in college who was a Roman Catholic, and we had many discussions about, about the differences between Protestantism and and Roman Catholicism. And what I came to understand is that going to mass for her. Itself was an act of faith. And so for the Roman Catholic, the concept of, of faith is different than the concept that Protestants operate under. So for the Roman Catholic who, um, goes to mass, even when they feel like they're, like, when they think they're just going through the motions, going through the motions is itself the act of faith. And that's because for most of Roman Catholics, most of Roman Catholicism, faith really equals faithfulness, right? So, so doing the act is the act of faithfulness. Doing the act is faith. Where for the Protestant, like faith is about belief and trust and knowledge. Like it's, it's an. Not entirely intellectual, but it's, it's an inward thing for the Roman Catholic faith is an out is primarily an outward thing. It's what you do, it's how you act. It's faith formed in love. It's faith formed in charity.  [00:26:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:26:37] Tony Arsenal: So I think most Roman Catholics going to obligatory confession first. I think once a month is probably like, probably more frequent than most Roman Catholics go to mass or go to confession. Um, I thought I read a stat that it was like every six months is, is pretty average and I think that's what's required by the church maybe even once a year is, is required by the church. Um, I think like most Roman Catholics go into the, the confessional booth and like father forgive me for I've sinned. It's been such and such a number of days since my last confession. Right. And they may bring up a couple particular things that they've done and, and then I think the priest commonly absolves them of all of their sins. Like, almost like in an omnibus fashion and then prescribes their acts of penance, which is it, it like, honestly, it's probably things they should already be doing as a faithful Catholic saying Hail Marys and doing our fathers and acts of charity and things like that. So I think your math is probably right. [00:27:39] Protestant Repentance Particular [00:27:39] Tony Arsenal: I think your, your theory that more confession is probably like, I'm gonna read this from, uh, the Westminster confession, just to, just to say it here, is, this is chapter 15, which is titled of Repentance Under Life. And this is, uh, this is section five or paragraph five. It says, men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but is every man's duty to endeavor, to repent of his particular sins, particularly. And I think that's just such a beautifully phrased sentence like. Not only is it like potent theologically, but like, it just, it just feels good, like in terms of like the English language to repent of your particular sins, particularly. And like the idea is yes, Protestant reform, Christians affirm a general repentance from sin, right? We repent of our sin before the father, uh, as a result of our, of our coming to faith in Christ. And as part of our sanctification, we mortify our sin and we, Viv we are vivified by the spirit and repentance falls in that ongoing sanctification process. And there is this general repentance of like, I repent of the fact that I'm a sinner and that I commit sins, but there is this element in the reformed faith of like, I should be confessing to God. And I think by extension, like we should be confessing to our fellow Christians, our particular sins, our individual sins, and we should be doing that on particular occasion. And I think like. The Luther style confession of like going into the confessor and confessing like every particular sin. Particularly I think most Roman Catholic priests would, priests. Priests would probably have the same reaction Tobits did where he was like, get outta here. Like, come on dude. Like just go live your life and like deal with it. I think that's probably the reaction most Catholic priests would have. But yeah, I think you're right. Like if we're really talking about like. Five, five minutes of confession once a month and that somehow having some sort of spiritual efficacy. I'm not sure I buy that math. Like I think you're, you're probably spot on.  [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:29:47] Confession Hours Oddities [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: I just was curious about how many priests would be required and then the allocation of the duties. By the way, you are right. So I, because I had to check on this, the, the fourth letter in council of 1215 does say that the church requires confession of any grave or mortal sins at least once a year. But the church, yeah, strongly encourages more frequent confession as a spiritual practice, even for, of course, like the venial or the less serious sins in their eyes. So yeah, my thought here was just that. I think it's actually undervalued by way of the math. Like the, as the kids say, the math just isn't math thing for me on this one. But I was more curious about, since this is one of the seven sacraments, even if you just said like, well, it should have at least one seven of the allocation. That's like, what? Like something like 14%. And so this is, um, almost half of that. I just found it a little bit, a little bit odd and yeah, I think you'd have to be, uh, so in other words, when I looked at the, basically, here's the bottom line. When I looked at the hours for confession one, there were weird times and uh, two, I was like, that doesn't seem like enough hours. Like, it was just more like that. Like how that's like saying like, Hey, the post office is open three hours a week, and by the way, one of those hours is from seven to eight o'clock on Friday. Like they had some hours. One hour just on Friday was like, I guess that's the way you wanna start your weekend is like, let's get all of this off my chest. Yeah. And, and do it. Right. And the last thing I'll say by the way, is you're correct. When you look at the instruction they give you, and this is common of course, toward the end, when they say like, here's how you like wrap up your part. Actually everybody should go read, go to the local, local Catholic church website and read the instructions. 'cause in some ways they're just interesting and kind of, um, I don't wanna say funny 'cause I'm not making fun. I'm just saying like, they have to give you instruction if you've never done it before. And so most of us are not really probably familiar with the process and they give you explicit instruction and toward the end it's like, here's how you kinda like hang up the call with the priest. And it's like you said, you know, these are my sins and all others, would you be willing to forgive? So you're right. Right. They just kinda wrap them all up because it's sins of omission, sense of commission, it's all to be together. But I, I wonder, you gotta think there's people in there that are like. The priests are like, okay, man, just yeah. Wrap, come on, wrap, wrap it up.  [00:31:55] Confession Timing Talk [00:31:55] Jesse Schwamb: And other people that come in are just like, you know, forgive me father. And uh, lastly to your point, when they give you instruction about how you should start, of course you're always to signify how long it's been since your last confession. Right. Confession. And they say parenthetically, like, reference the days, weeks, months, or years. So you're right. There are gonna be people that probably do it very frequently and probably people who do it infrequently still, I would say I just couldn't believe for a church this large, that there was just three hours a week.  [00:32:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: For everybody else.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:23] Vance and Papal Authority [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: This leads me to two very brief sub, uh, denials slash affirmations. Uh, I don't know if you saw this, um, this is not a political statement, right? I, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about the current administration and I think most of my feelings and thoughts would surprise. Everybody. But I thought it was hilarious because JD Vance, who is a Roman Catholic, uh, confessed Roman Catholic part of the Roman Catholic Church, uh, he ha I, I'm not sure if I'm affirming or denying this, there was this funny, uh, funny exchange. I think he was at doing like a, doing like a TPU, I don't know, speech. He was doing a speech at some conservative event and he said something like, I think that the Pope should be more careful when he makes theological statements. I'm wanna be like, do you understand what the pope is in your religion? That was one of my sub denials. Uh, I don't remember what the other one is, so it must not have been that important. It'll come back to me at the worst possible moment and I will try very hard not to interrupt our show for it, but I probably will fail.  [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:33:25] Reading Matthew 21 [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we, we gotta get to some scripture because. We're, we're doing this old school style where we take like half the time and just talk about affirmations. It's true in house. It's true. Which is great fun. But let's, let's get back to Matthew 21. And I, I know we did this last time, but I am gonna rock through the passage 'cause of course, that's the best part of any of our discussion, is actually hearing from, from the Holy Spirit through the scripture, uh, which he's given to us. So this is, uh, Matthew 21, starting in verse 33. And you're gonna hear the, the whole thing right here. Uh, this is Jesus speaking. Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it and built a tower and rented it out to vine growers and went on a journey. Now, when the high risk time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit, and the vine growers took his slaves and beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent another group of slaves larger than the first, and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them saying they will respect my son. But when the vine growers saw the sun, they said among themselves, this is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance, and they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you ever read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls in the stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they're regarding him to be a prophet. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:35:30] Pharisees Condemn Themselves [00:35:30] Tony Arsenal: This is like a super heavy parable. Right. And we talked a lot last week about how like the point of this parable is not necessarily to try to instruct the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Like it's not to instruct the people who were going to reject Christ, uh, the, the builders who would reject the cornerstone. It's really a parable to teach those. Who are observing this process happening. But I think it's, I, I think it's really interesting just listening to you read this and reading through it, and I guess this is a question I haven't asked and I, I need to study a little bit more. It's crazy to me in verse 41, um, Christ seems the, the, the, um, Matthew seems to say here, and maybe I need to do a little bit more Greek study, so bear with me and, and have grace if I'm wrong here. Matthew seems to say that like Christ asks the people he's speaking to, the Pharisees he's speaking to, what is he gonna do to these people? And the Pharisees answer, he's gonna put those wretches to a miserable death.  [00:36:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: Like the people listening to this parable understand the outcome, like they understand the. The consequence that the, the, the vineyard owner or the vineyard tenant tenants are facing based on their lack of faithfulness to the covenant. To me, that is like a really striking part of this parable. And, and it's not even like the parable proper, but like the striking element of the context of this is that nobody listening to this parable, including the Pharisees that this parable has basically spoken against, nobody fails to see the gravity of the consequence of rejecting God's emissary, like rejecting the Messiah. That to me is like a really, I dunno, paradigmatic. Portion of this that I think we need to grapple with. This is not an unclear, an unclear outcome. This is not, this is not masked or vague or OPA opaque. Like everybody understands, the people who reject the Messiah are going to face dire and eternal consequences for that act. [00:37:48] Jesse Schwamb: That does make this really interesting, doesn't it? Because it's not just entirely like Romans one adventures or even Romans two. It's that this is what Jesus does and he does it in a profound way that's not trickery like I think kinda like you're saying like the lead up to this isn't as if he's even leading the witness. He's making it very clear, all like the parameters of the story and the characters involved and what should be the proper judgment. And it's not as if like they start saying, they're like, oh, we shouldn't say anything more like we, we plead the fifth because it's gonna condemn ourselves. He draws his audience in to producing and pronouncing like their own sentence. It's very much like, I think I mentioned this last time, the prophet Nathan and David, isn't it? It's the exact same. Yeah. And the verdict is unanswerable, like even in its own terms. These other, like these other vine growers, prefigures of course like the inclusion of the Gentiles and the apostolic office. But I like that what Jesus does here, even before he gets to that point, is he extorts from them an acknowledgement of the punishment which awaited them. And so in this way there's like, I think the Puritans use this passage a lot actually to demonstrate that the natural conscience even of like the unregenerate, still bears witness to divine justice. That's Romans two. Like they, they can't get out from underneath it and Jesus isn't using any trickery on them to get them to say this thing. They are compelled in their own way, even being unregenerate to, like you said, even as they're rejecting the Messiah to recognize that punishment is due these characters in the story, even as they perceive at the end that they are those characters. [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Saying we'll receive the judgment.  [00:39:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:25] Usurpers Not Misguided [00:39:25] Tony Arsenal: And I think too, like, um, this is kind of one of those chicken or the egg scenarios, right? Like Christ is both recognizing the intention of their heart as well as prophesying. And, and not just prophesying, but like inception level prophesying the, the outcome of the intention of their heart. And so like, again, like we've, we spent a whole week kind of like leading into the parable and now we spent a whole week, we're gonna spend a whole week again kind of leading into the parable. This is such a deep parable, and that like Christ is not just laying bare. The fact that the, the people who were going to reject him were doing so out of this sort of like attempt and intention of usurping the kingdom of God for their own purposes. I think that brings a layer to this that we don't often appreciate in. Christ's interaction with the Pharisees. I think sometimes, and maybe this is because I just listened to an episode of where Matt Whitman on the 10 minute Bible hour talked about this. I think sometimes we actually have a tendency to sort of be sympathetic to the Pharisees where we think, you know, they were, they were just trying to obey God's law and they got a little sideways on it and you know, they were putting these boundaries in place, but they were doing it in this sort of like misguided attempt to protect the people. Christ actually here seems to contradict that in that the comparison he's making is not to a, a well-intentioned group of people who just get it wrong, but he's painting the Pharisees, the, the religious leaders, the Sadducees, the chief priests. He's painting them as these usurpers who recognize the proper authority of right. The master and his emissaries and ultimately of his son, they recognize this proper authority and rather than submitting to it and submitting to the covenant obligations that they, they already actually agreed to, instead of doing that, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own right. It's not just that they do the wrong thing, it's that they recognize the heir, which is Christ. They recognize this heir and they kill him to try to take his place. That is a really heavy element of this parable. Christ is not painting. Um, the, the, the Pharisees here, the, the religious leaders. He's not painting them as um, well-intentioned, but ultimately wrong, which is I think a lot of times, and I think there's reason to do this right. I'm not being overly critical and I've done this, I've actually done this myself, and I think there's some. Space for it. Like the Pharisees were wrong, but they were wrong, kind of in the right direction sometimes. Um, Christ is not really on board with that, at least in this parable. Right. This isn't about them thinking that the heir was a threat, and so killing the threat in, you know, inadvertently this is them absolutely seeing who the hair, who the heir is, and intentionally deciding to reject that heir and to murder him and to try to take his inheritance. Mm-hmm. That's an affront to not only the heir who they murder, but an affront to the owner of the vineyard himself, which of course in this parable is figured to be God the father primarily. But God in sort of general terms, like the whole Godhead, um, with Christ as the second Adam has, as his representative, as his heir. This is a really heavy parable and I think where this comes into play for us in our own Christian life is. Are there times where we. Sort of do the same thing in refusing to, maybe it's tie into your denial a little bit. Like refusing to acknowledge our own sinfulness, refusing to acknowledge the ways that God has provided for us. Um, do we at times look at what we have and lay claim to it as though it is our own inheritance that we've taken? Um, right. Do we kind of crucify the son of God anew in, in refusing to repent of our sins particularly? I dunno. I think those are some open questions for us to kind of explore as we dig into this a bit more. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: And that may relate as well to, well eventually at some point, I dunno, like 2040, get to like the parable of the talents. There's some similarity there with a little bit, right? You're saying? I think you're right.  [00:44:06] God Does All the Verbs [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: And where I think we can anchor some of that is in those first couple of verses. I'm really always impressed by really the number of action verbs that are packed within, like that just initial statement of Jesus explaining the situation. [00:44:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:44:19] Jesse Schwamb: So he sets it all up and he's saying there's a planting that goes on, this landowner puts up a wall, digs a wine press. Builds a tower and then RINs it. So there's all these like amazing things being done, all this action verb. And I, I think in part why he comes against the Pharisees so hard in the same way that we're looking at like the parable that, uh, the, uh, talents for instance of saying like, what did you do with that was entrusted to you was like this great treasure which Christ has entrusted or God has entrusted to his people, which is, is the gospel essentially is, is all a prophetic witness, is like the truth of who God is and his revelation of himself. And so I think. The first thing we gotta see in those verbs is that there's this emphasis that the vineyard was God's sovereign creation. You know, he plants it, he chose it, he established it. Israel didn't plant herself. She was planted. And that sovereign initiative is foundational, I think in, like you're saying, the parables indictment, because these vine growers, they don't possess anything that they did not receive. Right. You know, they did not find a vineyard already planted, but God himself made it from the wilderness that all his glory, all the glory might be his. So. I think it's helpful for us to observe that the church is always the planting of the Lord and that no congregation flourishes that is not first planted by God. And so there is a major offense here when those who are to care for it, who know, like you're saying, that they ought to care for it, who understand something about the hierarchy and the way it has been entrusted to them. Not to only break that covenant, but then seek to try to usurp the power in the roles of those whom they should be, quite frankly, in our own language, like under shepherds too. And so it starts with all, all those verbs. Like I think we could probably spend a. A lot of times just speaking about what does it mean? Why? Why is there all this explicit in particular language about the fact that there's a hedge and there's a press besides just these are part in piece mail or part and parcel of what it means to have a vineyard, apparently, but that they're all part of this narrative of God talking about how he protects and cares for his people and sets them in a place and chooses them and is particular about the construction and does so with great volition and authority and care and concern and creative ability. And then again, you have those who are meant there to do the very job that he's entrusted them with. And not only are they not doing that, and of course you're right. Jesus elsewhere, comes in, comes in hot, right, with a Pharisees saying like, listen, you set burdens on people's backs that you yourselves cannot lift. You're twice as in the hell as anybody else, and that's who you are. Yeah. It's not just hypocrisy, but you're literally setting people up to fail in this. So you can see how you're right. It's not just like, guys, I appreciate that. Like you wanted to set up some additional boundaries and maybe you took it a little bit too far. This parable is just scorched earth. It's, it's nuclear. Yeah.  [00:47:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:47:11] Scandalous Vineyard Setup [00:47:11] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, we are obviously gonna spend another week on this 'cause we still have not really addressed a single verse in this parable. I, I think like a lot of ink has been spilled on explaining sort of like the feal agricultural arrangements of this passage. What it represents. M my understanding is. A typical arrangement would be that a, a landowner would basically just lease out land and the tenants would be responsible for the planting, for the development. Right. And the, the, the landowner would essentially just collect a portion of whatever they produce. Right. This parable is actually taking this a step further. Exactly. That it's not as though the landowner just says like, all right, you can use this land. Right. And I own the land, so I get a portion of the pro, the profit. He's actually done all the work. Yes. And all that. The, all that the, the tenants need to do essentially is reap the harvest and then provide the portion of the harvest that belongs to the landowner, and so there is a greater investment. Of the landowner into this land than would be expected. We've commented in the past about how a lot of times the, the parables start on sort of a premise of shock. Like there's a, there's an element of the setup of the, of the parable where the audience would kind of like sit back and gasp or kind of be like, wait a second. Like that's not normal. Right. In the parable of the, the, um, lost son, it was the idea that like the son demanded his inheritance. And that wasn't the shocking part. The shocking part was that the father just granted it. Right. Or, um, the lost sheep, like the, there's actually a sort of a shocking element to the fact that like the, the land, the like sheep owner would just go get this other sheep. So we've, we've commented on there's kind of like. There's sort of like a scandalous setup. The scandalous setup in this is not that the land has been leased to tenants, right? It's that the land has been prepared for the tenants before it was leased out in the first place. And I think that's something we might miss if we read over this too quickly, is. The landowner has prepared everything for these, these tenants.  [00:49:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: So the, the, at the, the punchline of the parable where they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of, um, sovereignty and maybe a lowercase s in the, in the context of the parable, they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty and the rightful claim of the tenant or of the landowner on the, the profit of the land. And sort of like highlighter emphasized by the fact that they actually didn't do any of the work. There's a certain kind of like Amer, like American rugged individualism where we're kind of like, yeah, like if I planted all the crops, then it's kind of lame that this guy's coming in expecting to take a portion of it, right? Like, yeah, I guess he owns the land, so maybe he gets a little piece of it, but like, who does he think he is? All of that already is already short circuited. Like I. The, these tenants are not actually, um, portrayed as doing anything in this parable. That's right. Like they just lease the land. They, they, um, and leased is not really like the right. The right word, the, the Greek word is omi, which is like he gave over the land to them. Um, when we say leased, we have this idea that like the tenants pay to use the land and then like part of their contract is that whatever profits they reap, uh, off the land goes back to the, to the landowner. This is really more like the landowner graciously allowed them to live on this land, and the only payment he required was that they would eventually provide him part of the profit back. Like he's planted the land, he's put up the fence around it. He dug the wine press so that they could make a product out of it. He built the tower so it would be defended. Yes. And he gave it over to them essentially just to like live on until it was time for the harvest. And all he is asking for is basically like, alright, so this is my land. I've planted the vineyards, the profit is mine to have. And so when the time came for him to come claim that that's where they have now rejected him. Yes. That's where they've now said like, I know you did all the work and really graciously allowed us to live in this land, but we're gonna keep all of it for ourselves. That's the scandal of this. That's what I think like the original audience would've set up and like, wait a second here. Like, hold on. They didn't even plant the vineyards themselves. They didn't even build the tower themselves. That's really the force of this that I think we miss when we, when we overemphasize, trying to think through like what the original agricultural arrangements were. 'cause this is painted. Very different than what the original arrangements would've been typical for. Like this is a different scenario and I think intentionally so,  [00:52:09] Jesse Schwamb: and we need those words like rented, at least in English, to help us understand that it didn't belong to them. It wasn't a gift, right? It wasn't as if like it was just turned over in the sense that it belongs to you now do with it what you will. And it's very clear in the passage one, like you said, that the landowner does all those things. So it was a, you know, he completely set it up. I mean, this is just such a beautiful, I think, depiction of the hold of prophetic, you know, understanding of God's word here, but it's very clear that says the, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. So you're right. The scandal is that they're like, well, obviously. They need to give him his fruits, like  [00:52:48] Tony Arsenal: right.  [00:52:48] Jesse Schwamb: It was all set up before he left on this long journey. He then turned it over to them to care for, and that was really all that they were supposed to do. They had no role in this. And so it does like lead us in into this weird space where it's like, well, well what, what did the Pharisees think they were trying to do themselves? What does actually Jesus commenting on, on their own, like licit on their own initiative here, is he basically saying that not only are they not respecting his sovereignty, but they were trying to claim for themselves what only rightly belongs to God that even their position right. Society in culture as their representatives, God himself, they wanted to take that over for themselves, which he does bring that condemnation upon them in other parts of the scripture. So again, this is really hot. I think it's a, it's both heat and light, but there's no doubt that there's fire to this, right? Because it's a direct indictment that God the father set all of this up. You yourselves are on rented property, but guess what? Even the property that you've rented, I'm not exacting a tax from you as if like you have put forward and grown or supplied or created some kind of profitable outcome here. And I just want a piece of that. He's not even talking about tithing in that sense. What he's basically saying is, none of this belongs to you. Like how? Right? How dare you? None of this is yours. I set all of this up and in fact, because you've done so poor poorly at this, I'm gonna take it away from you and give it to those who actually produce fruit and guess what's gonna be the Gentiles? So it's, there's a wild. Amounts of condemnation packed into a very small story.  [00:54:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It really is.  [00:54:22] Tenants Add Nothing [00:54:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is nothing expected of these tenants. Right. There's no contract, like there's no terms, they, they really add nothing to the, the landowner's land, except I guess maybe they're the ones harvesting these, this fruit. Right. But even that's not explicit in the parable.  [00:54:43] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Right. Right. He, he does all just to steal your thunder, like he does all the verbs. Yes. All of the ves are done by the landowner.  [00:54:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Right  [00:54:51] Tony Arsenal: on. There is an implication that the, the tenants are somehow like the ones harvesting this, or they're the ones producing the wine, I guess, in the wine vat or the wine press. But at the end of the day. A normal tenant landowner agreement would be, I'm, you're, first of all, you're probably gonna pay me to use this land, right? You're paying me to use this land, and the way you pay me is you're gonna plant the, the gr the crop. You're gonna harvest it. You're gonna make the produce, and all I'm gonna do is let you live on this land. I'm gonna take the pro, like the profit, you're gonna pay me outta that profit. There is nothing asked or expected of these, these landowners, except to give the fruit that is already hit.  [00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly.  [00:55:37] Tony Arsenal: And, and that's where like, I think our Christian life, John Piper, I won't get into too much, but like John Piper is all in the news again for the same like finance, final salvation stuff that he's, he's been controversial for, for years. Right. And I think like this ties into that thi this is a, a direct parallel in many ways to the par, like the, the parable of the talents, which I'm, we we'll get into eventually is like. The, the landowner provides these talents or the, in this case, the land and the fruit. All of this is brought forth by his will and the fact that these, these worthless tenants do nothing and then still have the audacity to basically like refuse to. Provide back to this landowner what he has produced.  [00:56:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yes. That's  [00:56:26] Tony Arsenal: the key. That's, that's really the point of this parable.  [00:56:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.  [00:56:29] Tony Arsenal: Is somehow the Pharisees, and I think where the application of this is probably where we'll go next time, is like somehow the Pharisees have got in their mind that this thing that God has done in the people of Israel and is now doing in the Messiah, this ministry of the Messiah, in coming to claim the fruit, that somehow they have a right to lay claim to that and to withhold it from the Father. [00:56:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:56:54] Tony Arsenal: Even though they had nothing to do with anything that brought about, its, its, uh, its occurrence. Right. The Pharisees didn't create the nation of Israel. They didn't create the gospel. They didn't create the Messiah, and somehow they think that they can withhold the fruit of that ministry from the father and take like lay claim to it for themselves. And this is where I think. We have to trust the Holy Spirit and trust Jesus because there's really nothing in the gospels that explain what they were doing that sort of like showed them trying to like take over the Messiah's inheritance, right? But that's what this parable teaches, is that that's what they're being criticized for, that they were somehow trying to usurp the position of the Messiah. They were trying to become the mediators. They were trying to become the sons of God or the son of God who interceded from God for God's people. They were the ones that were gonna do that. They were the ones that were gonna accomplish that. So I think what'll be interesting next week is when we come, come back to this parable and sort of try to talk about like what does that actually teach us as believers 2000 years later, who aren't Pharisees. We're not trying to do that. What does this have to do with us? What does this have to say to us?  [00:58:07] Wrap Up and Next Week [00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think you're entirely right and I'm looking forward to, uh, well, we'll wrap it up officially.  [00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: Yes.  [00:58:13] Jesse Schwamb: In, in that next episode, it's gonna be  [00:58:15] Tony Arsenal: probably  [00:58:16] Jesse Schwamb: totally, probably, it's like a 70% chance, honestly. Loved ones,  [00:58:21] Tony Arsenal: 70%, 50. [00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There's definitely a meaningful material probability that that still won't be the last one once we get started, but we're gonna try. As always. I, I'm totally with you. I, I hope people take a little time to go read through this because I think the more we slow down and really try to set ourselves into the details and actually be particular about maybe envisioning the circumstances exactly as they're laid out for us and not as we sometimes try to fill out in our minds. I think maybe the biggest challenge that we've learned in this particular conversation is that verse 34, what is meant when the scripture says Now, when the harvest time approached. He that is the landowner sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. And I think what you've challenged here is this idea of, well, it doesn't say like he sent to go get them to harvest it. Right. Just saying like, listen, it's my fruit. Like let's do this thing. Like you knew I would show up. I've left you to, to care for all these things which I put into place. So here I am, I've sent my people to come and receive the fruit. And, uh, they can't do it. They refuse to do it. They won't do it. Uh, they kill everybody whom he sends, including his own son. And so, you're right, it's not even here. We gotta be careful about the actions and of presuming that they here, like the Pharisees were these people who were in charge somehow of even harvesting. There's, there's actually no mention of that except for it was just harvest time.  [00:59:40] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:59:40] Jesse Schwamb: And so it's even there, I think it's purposely ambiguous to remind us that God is doing all the things. I'm a little embarrassed that I missed the phrase. God does all the verbs when I was literally saying. The landowner does all these verbs.  [00:59:53] Tony Arsenal: It's okay.  [00:59:54] Jesse Schwamb: The first sentence I, I've, I've fallen down on you loved ones. I'm so sorry I missed it,  [00:59:58] Tony Arsenal: Jesse. It's okay because God does all the verbs  [01:00:02] Jesse Schwamb: is factually. That is factually correct, so we'll give this one. One more shot because at least there's so much for us. We could do a whole series just on this one, and I think if you're tracking with us, you're probably discovering that we also, sometimes in real time, as we really spend a little bit of effort kind of speaking about the particulars, find that these parables are more chock full than you think. There isn't just one idea. There's often many ideas coalescing around. Yeah. The central theme and the setup in the context is important. The word choice is important, and I am as well, just as you were saying, blown away by the way in which Jesus really evokes from the audience here, their own condemnation, their own judicial decree, which is, yeah, he's gonna take those wretches and kick 'em out. And they're saying it about themselves. This is what sin does, isn't it? This is what the natural man is like. Ken has to bow down to this great sovereign justice that comes from God while at the same time they think in their self-righteousness. They're proclaiming that in somebody else, and what they're really doing is they're putting it on their own head apart from God. We are all like that. All of us are like this. So glory beats a God who through the Holy Spirit, opens our eyes to receive and to understand the gospel, to be changed by, to be transformed by it because he does all the verbs. I'm so grateful that that's in fact what he does, that that God has planted us, that he's pull a wall around us, that he stick out this wine press for us, that he's built a tower to protect us and that he has grown the fruit in us because of all the things that he has done. [01:01:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, this is normally the part of the episode where we would do all of our announcements, uh, which just shows you we are not great podcasters. 'cause really we should do that at the beginning of, of the episode. Uh, but you know what, like if you wanna know what all of our announcements are, you're just gonna have to come back next week. 'cause we are out of time. We're not gonna do that. So I, I know that that's the most cliff of all cliffhangers is if you have listened this far and you want to hear about Oliver of our housekeeping assignment, an announcements and whatnot, you're just gonna have to come back next week and listen to it. Uh, because as much as my brain is telling me I should tell you all about it now, I'm not going to. So, Jesse, until next time when people join us for our housekeeping announcements, honor everyone.  [01:02:31] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 

In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got?  [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um.  [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna,  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild.  [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah,  [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.  [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging.  [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call.  [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?  [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood up and he's like, well, if we're gonna give X, why don't we just give 10 times X instead? And then actually, like the discussion was like, well, is, are we sure that 10 times X is even the right amount? Why don't we have this particular group meet over the lunch break and figure out whether that's the right number and then come back after lunch and we'll vote on it. And then they came back after lunch and it was actually a number that was even greater than 10 times X. So it was like this exercise in like. This very small proposal that was still imminently generous, right? The presbytery has no obligation to do this. There's no obligation from any of the presbyters to stand up and say like, we should. We should supplement this fund. They would've been well within their right, and no one would've looked, I think. I think some people would've been frustrated by it, but I don't think anyone would've looked sideways at it or thought it was sinful. If the presbytery just said like, we can't approve this call. You guys are gonna have to come back with it and we'll vote on it at the next presbytery. Like that would've been problematic. This, this kind of poor guy who's coming outta seminary, his call and his beginning of employment would've been delayed, but like. That would've been good and orderly, but instead they were like, one, we don't want this pulpit to stay empty longer. We don't wanna disadvantage this guy who's just getting done with seminary. We want him to get started. We don't wanna discourage him. So here's a small proposal, a very modest amount of money that we can put forward for this purpose. And then it was like, let's just keep seeing how much closer to a real full-time call we can get. And they finally came back and said like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this in a wise fashion. They structured it. So like the first year he gets more, the second year he gets a little bit less. The third year the church gets a little bit less with the idea that like each year the church should be adjusting their budget to compensate and get this guy to that with the, the hope that like with a full-time minister, they're able to grow their congregation to the point where they can support a full-time minister. So it was just this really cool, super encouraging exercise. And what I loved about it is the only real debate that was going on was about do we need to do more? There was no one being like, wait a second, why are we, why are we putting more money to this? The whole thing was like, is this actually enough to accomplish what we think God wants to do with this person's call? Because if, if God is truly calling this man to this, this particular church, and we believe that he is. Then what do we as a, as a people of God need to do to enable that call to look like what we actually believe calls to ministry are supposed to look like, which is a full-time call to ministry that is undistracted by the cares of the world. What do we need to do? The answer in this case was like, I think we need to put a sizable amount of money to it. Um, it's a, I mean, and again. I'm not gonna say it on the air. It was not a small chunk of change. Um, it was, it was a, it was a large amount of money that was devoted to this cause and that just goes to show how much this body values the importance of a full-time minister of the word, so. [00:16:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:16:51] OPC Love and Recommendation [00:16:51] Tony Arsenal: That's enough about that. I, I could gush about how proud I am to be a part of this body and how encouraged I am and how amazing it was and how awesome this, this guy, how, how much this guy must be thanking God for the providence and like, this is the last thing. I'll say this, this young man younger than me, I think he's graduating seminary. I saw him across the room. He looks like he's probably in his mid twenties, right? Young guy. He's got a wife doesn't have kids yet coming into this ministry, not only is he coming into this ministry, but as a Presbyterian minister, when he's installed as the minister of this church. He will be joining this body of presbyters as the, as his brothers like. He is not a member of the local church. He's a member of the presbytery, which is the regional church. So now he's coming into this fully supported by his brothers in the presbytery that he saw go to the mat to make sure he was properly taken care of, that the congregation was not unintentionally taking advantage of his labor, but also that he knows that all of these men are willing to do what they need to do to make sure that his ministry is successful and edifies the church like that is. Uh, I don't want to gush on Presbyterianism too much, but like that is Presbyterianism at peak form, right? This is the body of elders making sure that every church in the region, even the ones they're not directly ministering in, has what it needs to succeed and to honor God and to do what needs to happen. So I'm affirming the presbytery of New York and New England and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, I have been so blessed by knowing many of these presbyters. I've been so blessed by being a part of the congregation that I am. There are lots of really great churches and really great denominations out there. If you are looking for a church and there is an OPC congregation in your area, absolutely go check it out. I know it feels stuffy sometimes, and I will admit, like sometimes it feels a little bit overly traditional in terms of like just the vibe of the congregation,  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But press past that because I don't think, I don't think you will find, um. You may find lots of congregations that are as faithful. I don't think you're gonna find many that are more faithful than your average OPC congregation. So I could be wrong. I just, I just love the OPC. I just really, really love it. So that's my affirmation. What do you got for us, Jesse?  [00:19:18] Denial Catholic Confession Math [00:19:18] Jesse Schwamb: I think I got denial, which is maybe a little bit unusual for me. [00:19:21] Tony Arsenal: As long as you're not denying the OPCI think we're fine.  [00:19:23] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's, it's not, it is church related and I, I'll try to keep it short 'cause I think I can make this way longer than it, it probably should be, but lemme think how to phrase this. So, I don't know with a devil negative, I guess when I'm a denying against is maybe not enough confession by your own standard. So the, I'm gonna try to make this so brief. I, I just happened to be out with my wife this afternoon and we had to run errands. We got stuck in traffic and this gave me longer than usual to sit in front of our. Very local and very large Catholic church. So I happen to be looking at their sign. It's a very large congregation. I've been actually been in this one on a couple of occasions for funerals. So not only do I know its size and scope, but again, if you get, if you get on this road at the wrong time on the Lord's day, you're gonna be stuck for a long time because there are so many people that attend. I say that because I noticed on the sign that there were three times for mass on the Lord's Day. So that also says something about the number of people coming through. And then on the sign though, underneath it said for confessions, go to our website. Mm-hmm. So I was like, man, I gotta lick this up because I can't tell if they're telling me I can confess on the website or if it's go to the website for the times. And I said to my wife, only half jokingly, if I can confess online, I'm gonna confess something. So I went to, I went to the website and, and sure enough it was almost disappointingly. It was just the times.  [00:20:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:46] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I've found interesting, which just launched me into this like deep rabbit hole. There were three times for confession. Two of those times were just a half an hour, and the third time was an hour. So, uh, what I did was I went through, actually, I think what they had on there was, was three full hours a week. It was a little bit confusing, but I think it was three full hours. Now I think about it. So I went back, I just couldn't help myself, Tony. So I started to think, alright, let's say. I think it's fair to assume  [00:21:15] Tony Arsenal: math, Jesse is kicking in right now. Yes. You're gonna calculate how many minutes per, per person is what you're doing. I'm thinking, ah,  [00:21:22] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it's something like that. So what I thought was, I don't think it's, uh, I was gonna be conservative. I wanna be fair. I wanna be fair. So, and now we should say like, I think most people realize that the Catholic understanding of confession and the Protestant one is, is very different. The Catholic sacrament of confession is the right through which Catholics are gonna confess their sins to a priest receive absolution, and it's gonna restore the relationship with God in the church. And, and they're gonna believe that the priest acts as a person of Christ and is bound by the seal of confession and an absolute kind of obligation. Uh, of course never to reveal what was disclosed during that process. So, by the way, the website that I went to, lovely instructions. I mean, I was like, wow. I was reading it to my wife who was, uh, not familiar with this at all, and she was like, they can make you do stuff. And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, obviously like there's, there's a portion of this where there's contrition or penant penance. It could be a prayer, it could be act of charity, like all kinds of stuff. So I went back and I thought. I don't think it's unreasonable that there's 350 persons that would say, let's say an average, uh, that would wanna take part of confession. Now, let's say that they did that at, at least monthly, just once a month. And, and I don't know how people's conviction is on that, but I'm gonna say conservatively once a month. Let's say that, and I don't think this is unreasonable, Tony, but you tell me. Let's say you're, you're trucking, you're moving through confession. Let's say it's five minutes a piece. So we're up to 1,750 minutes, uh, per month. That's the demand on the priest because I was, I was looking at this time and I was thinking something is strange here to me, so. That was the demand then, and I'll spare you the other math, which could be very long and un uninteresting. I'm coming up with, you'd need 2.24, two and a quarter priests, which of course you can't have a quarter priests or a quarter person for any reason. So you'd hire, you'd hire three priests, which satisfy the demand if, and the major assumptions here, that is like everybody can't show up at the same time. Obviously, I'm assuming that like everybody has their own time, they're spreading it out. So everybody gets the confession, but it's just five minutes. And I, I have no idea. I mean, if you're a Luther, that's certainly not sufficient time.  [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:20] Jesse Schwamb: And you would need three priests. Now here's the thing that I just kind of backed into that, besides like three being like, okay, that, that's, you would need three priests just to satisfy this congregation. If they're confessing for five minutes, once per month. Uh, by the way, if you said, well, half the congregation is going to go weekly, uh, then you, you would double the number of priests you need to 5.98 or six. But here's, here's the bottom line for me. This is why the denial comes in about maybe not enough, is. If you were just to distill that down to like, if you could have one priest cover that time, that there's a demand for like 779.4 hours, or excuse me, minutes of confession, that priest would only be allocating approximately like seven and a half percent of their working hours, their work toward handling confession. This seems like not enough confession given the standards of confession in the Catholic church. And again, I know that I'm, I'm now allocating that to one priest and I just told everybody you need three. That's true. So if you had these three now, if you hired three just to meet the demand, that would only be about like three and a half or a little under three and a half percent of their combined time. So the denial is Catholics, I think, unless I'm way off in some of my assumptions here, you might not be confessing enough by your own standards because  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, that seems like not enough time.  [00:24:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Ritual Faithfulness Explained [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, um. I don't want to be too bombastic here, but I think,  [00:24:46] Jesse Schwamb: I think I already started this on this  [00:24:48] Tony Arsenal: path. Maybe this, maybe this isn't all that bombastic. Um, because this is so much about ritual and actually I say this is gonna sound really, we, we go, but trying to think from the Roman Catholic perspective, it's actually not, and I'll I'll tell you a brief story, uh, to explain it. Um, a lot of Roman Catholics are just going through the motions. [00:25:13] Jesse Schwamb: That's true.  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: But the point, the, the, the point of contention actually is that going through the motions is valuable for the Roman Catholic, right? So I, I knew this, uh, this young woman when I was in college who was a Roman Catholic, and we had many discussions about, about the differences between Protestantism and and Roman Catholicism. And what I came to understand is that going to mass for her. Itself was an act of faith. And so for the Roman Catholic, the concept of, of faith is different than the concept that Protestants operate under. So for the Roman Catholic who, um, goes to mass, even when they feel like they're, like, when they think they're just going through the motions, going through the motions is itself the act of faith. And that's because for most of Roman Catholics, most of Roman Catholicism, faith really equals faithfulness, right? So, so doing the act is the act of faithfulness. Doing the act is faith. Where for the Protestant, like faith is about belief and trust and knowledge. Like it's, it's an. Not entirely intellectual, but it's, it's an inward thing for the Roman Catholic faith is an out is primarily an outward thing. It's what you do, it's how you act. It's faith formed in love. It's faith formed in charity.  [00:26:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:26:37] Tony Arsenal: So I think most Roman Catholics going to obligatory confession first. I think once a month is probably like, probably more frequent than most Roman Catholics go to mass or go to confession. Um, I thought I read a stat that it was like every six months is, is pretty average and I think that's what's required by the church maybe even once a year is, is required by the church. Um, I think like most Roman Catholics go into the, the confessional booth and like father forgive me for I've sinned. It's been such and such a number of days since my last confession. Right. And they may bring up a couple particular things that they've done and, and then I think the priest commonly absolves them of all of their sins. Like, almost like in an omnibus fashion and then prescribes their acts of penance, which is it, it like, honestly, it's probably things they should already be doing as a faithful Catholic saying Hail Marys and doing our fathers and acts of charity and things like that. So I think your math is probably right. [00:27:39] Protestant Repentance Particular [00:27:39] Tony Arsenal: I think your, your theory that more confession is probably like, I'm gonna read this from, uh, the Westminster confession, just to, just to say it here, is, this is chapter 15, which is titled of Repentance Under Life. And this is, uh, this is section five or paragraph five. It says, men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but is every man's duty to endeavor, to repent of his particular sins, particularly. And I think that's just such a beautifully phrased sentence like. Not only is it like potent theologically, but like, it just, it just feels good, like in terms of like the English language to repent of your particular sins, particularly. And like the idea is yes, Protestant reform, Christians affirm a general repentance from sin, right? We repent of our sin before the father, uh, as a result of our, of our coming to faith in Christ. And as part of our sanctification, we mortify our sin and we, Viv we are vivified by the spirit and repentance falls in that ongoing sanctification process. And there is this general repentance of like, I repent of the fact that I'm a sinner and that I commit sins, but there is this element in the reformed faith of like, I should be confessing to God. And I think by extension, like we should be confessing to our fellow Christians, our particular sins, our individual sins, and we should be doing that on particular occasion. And I think like. The Luther style confession of like going into the confessor and confessing like every particular sin. Particularly I think most Roman Catholic priests would, priests. Priests would probably have the same reaction Tobits did where he was like, get outta here. Like, come on dude. Like just go live your life and like deal with it. I think that's probably the reaction most Catholic priests would have. But yeah, I think you're right. Like if we're really talking about like. Five, five minutes of confession once a month and that somehow having some sort of spiritual efficacy. I'm not sure I buy that math. Like I think you're, you're probably spot on.  [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:29:47] Confession Hours Oddities [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: I just was curious about how many priests would be required and then the allocation of the duties. By the way, you are right. So I, because I had to check on this, the, the fourth letter in council of 1215 does say that the church requires confession of any grave or mortal sins at least once a year. But the church, yeah, strongly encourages more frequent confession as a spiritual practice, even for, of course, like the venial or the less serious sins in their eyes. So yeah, my thought here was just that. I think it's actually undervalued by way of the math. Like the, as the kids say, the math just isn't math thing for me on this one. But I was more curious about, since this is one of the seven sacraments, even if you just said like, well, it should have at least one seven of the allocation. That's like, what? Like something like 14%. And so this is, um, almost half of that. I just found it a little bit, a little bit odd and yeah, I think you'd have to be, uh, so in other words, when I looked at the, basically, here's the bottom line. When I looked at the hours for confession one, there were weird times and uh, two, I was like, that doesn't seem like enough hours. Like, it was just more like that. Like how that's like saying like, Hey, the post office is open three hours a week, and by the way, one of those hours is from seven to eight o'clock on Friday. Like they had some hours. One hour just on Friday was like, I guess that's the way you wanna start your weekend is like, let's get all of this off my chest. Yeah. And, and do it. Right. And the last thing I'll say by the way, is you're correct. When you look at the instruction they give you, and this is common of course, toward the end, when they say like, here's how you like wrap up your part. Actually everybody should go read, go to the local, local Catholic church website and read the instructions. 'cause in some ways they're just interesting and kind of, um, I don't wanna say funny 'cause I'm not making fun. I'm just saying like, they have to give you instruction if you've never done it before. And so most of us are not really probably familiar with the process and they give you explicit instruction and toward the end it's like, here's how you kinda like hang up the call with the priest. And it's like you said, you know, these are my sins and all others, would you be willing to forgive? So you're right. Right. They just kinda wrap them all up because it's sins of omission, sense of commission, it's all to be together. But I, I wonder, you gotta think there's people in there that are like. The priests are like, okay, man, just yeah. Wrap, come on, wrap, wrap it up.  [00:31:55] Confession Timing Talk [00:31:55] Jesse Schwamb: And other people that come in are just like, you know, forgive me father. And uh, lastly to your point, when they give you instruction about how you should start, of course you're always to signify how long it's been since your last confession. Right. Confession. And they say parenthetically, like, reference the days, weeks, months, or years. So you're right. There are gonna be people that probably do it very frequently and probably people who do it infrequently still, I would say I just couldn't believe for a church this large, that there was just three hours a week.  [00:32:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: For everybody else.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:23] Vance and Papal Authority [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: This leads me to two very brief sub, uh, denials slash affirmations. Uh, I don't know if you saw this, um, this is not a political statement, right? I, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about the current administration and I think most of my feelings and thoughts would surprise. Everybody. But I thought it was hilarious because JD Vance, who is a Roman Catholic, uh, confessed Roman Catholic part of the Roman Catholic Church, uh, he ha I, I'm not sure if I'm affirming or denying this, there was this funny, uh, funny exchange. I think he was at doing like a, doing like a TPU, I don't know, speech. He was doing a speech at some conservative event and he said something like, I think that the Pope should be more careful when he makes theological statements. I'm wanna be like, do you understand what the pope is in your religion? That was one of my sub denials. Uh, I don't remember what the other one is, so it must not have been that important. It'll come back to me at the worst possible moment and I will try very hard not to interrupt our show for it, but I probably will fail.  [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:33:25] Reading Matthew 21 [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we, we gotta get to some scripture because. We're, we're doing this old school style where we take like half the time and just talk about affirmations. It's true in house. It's true. Which is great fun. But let's, let's get back to Matthew 21. And I, I know we did this last time, but I am gonna rock through the passage 'cause of course, that's the best part of any of our discussion, is actually hearing from, from the Holy Spirit through the scripture, uh, which he's given to us. So this is, uh, Matthew 21, starting in verse 33. And you're gonna hear the, the whole thing right here. Uh, this is Jesus speaking. Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it and built a tower and rented it out to vine growers and went on a journey. Now, when the high risk time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit, and the vine growers took his slaves and beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent another group of slaves larger than the first, and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them saying they will respect my son. But when the vine growers saw the sun, they said among themselves, this is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance, and they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you ever read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls in the stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they're regarding him to be a prophet. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:35:30] Pharisees Condemn Themselves [00:35:30] Tony Arsenal: This is like a super heavy parable. Right. And we talked a lot last week about how like the point of this parable is not necessarily to try to instruct the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Like it's not to instruct the people who were going to reject Christ, uh, the, the builders who would reject the cornerstone. It's really a parable to teach those. Who are observing this process happening. But I think it's, I, I think it's really interesting just listening to you read this and reading through it, and I guess this is a question I haven't asked and I, I need to study a little bit more. It's crazy to me in verse 41, um, Christ seems the, the, the, um, Matthew seems to say here, and maybe I need to do a little bit more Greek study, so bear with me and, and have grace if I'm wrong here. Matthew seems to say that like Christ asks the people he's speaking to, the Pharisees he's speaking to, what is he gonna do to these people? And the Pharisees answer, he's gonna put those wretches to a miserable death.  [00:36:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: Like the people listening to this parable understand the outcome, like they understand the. The consequence that the, the, the vineyard owner or the vineyard tenant tenants are facing based on their lack of faithfulness to the covenant. To me, that is like a really striking part of this parable. And, and it's not even like the parable proper, but like the striking element of the context of this is that nobody listening to this parable, including the Pharisees that this parable has basically spoken against, nobody fails to see the gravity of the consequence of rejecting God's emissary, like rejecting the Messiah. That to me is like a really, I dunno, paradigmatic. Portion of this that I think we need to grapple with. This is not an unclear, an unclear outcome. This is not, this is not masked or vague or OPA opaque. Like everybody understands, the people who reject the Messiah are going to face dire and eternal consequences for that act. [00:37:48] Jesse Schwamb: That does make this really interesting, doesn't it? Because it's not just entirely like Romans one adventures or even Romans two. It's that this is what Jesus does and he does it in a profound way that's not trickery like I think kinda like you're saying like the lead up to this isn't as if he's even leading the witness. He's making it very clear, all like the parameters of the story and the characters involved and what should be the proper judgment. And it's not as if like they start saying, they're like, oh, we shouldn't say anything more like we, we plead the fifth because it's gonna condemn ourselves. He draws his audience in to producing and pronouncing like their own sentence. It's very much like, I think I mentioned this last time, the prophet Nathan and David, isn't it? It's the exact same. Yeah. And the verdict is unanswerable, like even in its own terms. These other, like these other vine growers, prefigures of course like the inclusion of the Gentiles and the apostolic office. But I like that what Jesus does here, even before he gets to that point, is he extorts from them an acknowledgement of the punishment which awaited them. And so in this way there's like, I think the Puritans use this passage a lot actually to demonstrate that the natural conscience even of like the unregenerate, still bears witness to divine justice. That's Romans two. Like they, they can't get out from underneath it and Jesus isn't using any trickery on them to get them to say this thing. They are compelled in their own way, even being unregenerate to, like you said, even as they're rejecting the Messiah to recognize that punishment is due these characters in the story, even as they perceive at the end that they are those characters. [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Saying we'll receive the judgment.  [00:39:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:25] Usurpers Not Misguided [00:39:25] Tony Arsenal: And I think too, like, um, this is kind of one of those chicken or the egg scenarios, right? Like Christ is both recognizing the intention of their heart as well as prophesying. And, and not just prophesying, but like inception level prophesying the, the outcome of the intention of their heart. And so like, again, like we've, we spent a whole week kind of like leading into the parable and now we spent a whole week, we're gonna spend a whole week again kind of leading into the parable. This is such a deep parable, and that like Christ is not just laying bare. The fact that the, the people who were going to reject him were doing so out of this sort of like attempt and intention of usurping the kingdom of God for their own purposes. I think that brings a layer to this that we don't often appreciate in. Christ's interaction with the Pharisees. I think sometimes, and maybe this is because I just listened to an episode of where Matt Whitman on the 10 minute Bible hour talked about this. I think sometimes we actually have a tendency to sort of be sympathetic to the Pharisees where we think, you know, they were, they were just trying to obey God's law and they got a little sideways on it and you know, they were putting these boundaries in place, but they were doing it in this sort of like misguided attempt to protect the people. Christ actually here seems to contradict that in that the comparison he's making is not to a, a well-intentioned group of people who just get it wrong, but he's painting the Pharisees, the, the religious leaders, the Sadducees, the chief priests. He's painting them as these usurpers who recognize the proper authority of right. The master and his emissaries and ultimately of his son, they recognize this proper authority and rather than submitting to it and submitting to the covenant obligations that they, they already actually agreed to, instead of doing that, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own right. It's not just that they do the wrong thing, it's that they recognize the heir, which is Christ. They recognize this heir and they kill him to try to take his place. That is a really heavy element of this parable. Christ is not painting. Um, the, the, the Pharisees here, the, the religious leaders. He's not painting them as um, well-intentioned, but ultimately wrong, which is I think a lot of times, and I think there's reason to do this right. I'm not being overly critical and I've done this, I've actually done this myself, and I think there's some. Space for it. Like the Pharisees were wrong, but they were wrong, kind of in the right direction sometimes. Um, Christ is not really on board with that, at least in this parable. Right. This isn't about them thinking that the heir was a threat, and so killing the threat in, you know, inadvertently this is them absolutely seeing who the hair, who the heir is, and intentionally deciding to reject that heir and to murder him and to try to take his inheritance. Mm-hmm. That's an affront to not only the heir who they murder, but an affront to the owner of the vineyard himself, which of course in this parable is figured to be God the father primarily. But God in sort of general terms, like the whole Godhead, um, with Christ as the second Adam has, as his representative, as his heir. This is a really heavy parable and I think where this comes into play for us in our own Christian life is. Are there times where we. Sort of do the same thing in refusing to, maybe it's tie into your denial a little bit. Like refusing to acknowledge our own sinfulness, refusing to acknowledge the ways that God has provided for us. Um, do we at times look at what we have and lay claim to it as though it is our own inheritance that we've taken? Um, right. Do we kind of crucify the son of God anew in, in refusing to repent of our sins particularly? I dunno. I think those are some open questions for us to kind of explore as we dig into this a bit more. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: And that may relate as well to, well eventually at some point, I dunno, like 2040, get to like the parable of the talents. There's some similarity there with a little bit, right? You're saying? I think you're right.  [00:44:06] God Does All the Verbs [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: And where I think we can anchor some of that is in those first couple of verses. I'm really always impressed by really the number of action verbs that are packed within, like that just initial statement of Jesus explaining the situation. [00:44:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:44:19] Jesse Schwamb: So he sets it all up and he's saying there's a planting that goes on, this landowner puts up a wall, digs a wine press. Builds a tower and then RINs it. So there's all these like amazing things being done, all this action verb. And I, I think in part why he comes against the Pharisees so hard in the same way that we're looking at like the parable that, uh, the, uh, talents for instance of saying like, what did you do with that was entrusted to you was like this great treasure which Christ has entrusted or God has entrusted to his people, which is, is the gospel essentially is, is all a prophetic witness, is like the truth of who God is and his revelation of himself. And so I think. The first thing we gotta see in those verbs is that there's this emphasis that the vineyard was God's sovereign creation. You know, he plants it, he chose it, he established it. Israel didn't plant herself. She was planted. And that sovereign initiative is foundational, I think in, like you're saying, the parables indictment, because these vine growers, they don't possess anything that they did not receive. Right. You know, they did not find a vineyard already planted, but God himself made it from the wilderness that all his glory, all the glory might be his. So. I think it's helpful for us to observe that the church is always the planting of the Lord and that no congregation flourishes that is not first planted by God. And so there is a major offense here when those who are to care for it, who know, like you're saying, that they ought to care for it, who understand something about the hierarchy and the way it has been entrusted to them. Not to only break that covenant, but then seek to try to usurp the power in the roles of those whom they should be, quite frankly, in our own language, like under shepherds too. And so it starts with all, all those verbs. Like I think we could probably spend a. A lot of times just speaking about what does it mean? Why? Why is there all this explicit in particular language about the fact that there's a hedge and there's a press besides just these are part in piece mail or part and parcel of what it means to have a vineyard, apparently, but that they're all part of this narrative of God talking about how he protects and cares for his people and sets them in a place and chooses them and is particular about the construction and does so with great volition and authority and care and concern and creative ability. And then again, you have those who are meant there to do the very job that he's entrusted them with. And not only are they not doing that, and of course you're right. Jesus elsewhere, comes in, comes in hot, right, with a Pharisees saying like, listen, you set burdens on people's backs that you yourselves cannot lift. You're twice as in the hell as anybody else, and that's who you are. Yeah. It's not just hypocrisy, but you're literally setting people up to fail in this. So you can see how you're right. It's not just like, guys, I appreciate that. Like you wanted to set up some additional boundaries and maybe you took it a little bit too far. This parable is just scorched earth. It's, it's nuclear. Yeah.  [00:47:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:47:11] Scandalous Vineyard Setup [00:47:11] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, we are obviously gonna spend another week on this 'cause we still have not really addressed a single verse in this parable. I, I think like a lot of ink has been spilled on explaining sort of like the feal agricultural arrangements of this passage. What it represents. M my understanding is. A typical arrangement would be that a, a landowner would basically just lease out land and the tenants would be responsible for the planting, for the development. Right. And the, the, the landowner would essentially just collect a portion of whatever they produce. Right. This parable is actually taking this a step further. Exactly. That it's not as though the landowner just says like, all right, you can use this land. Right. And I own the land, so I get a portion of the pro, the profit. He's actually done all the work. Yes. And all that. The, all that the, the tenants need to do essentially is reap the harvest and then provide the portion of the harvest that belongs to the landowner, and so there is a greater investment. Of the landowner into this land than would be expected. We've commented in the past about how a lot of times the, the parables start on sort of a premise of shock. Like there's a, there's an element of the setup of the, of the parable where the audience would kind of like sit back and gasp or kind of be like, wait a second. Like that's not normal. Right. In the parable of the, the, um, lost son, it was the idea that like the son demanded his inheritance. And that wasn't the shocking part. The shocking part was that the father just granted it. Right. Or, um, the lost sheep, like the, there's actually a sort of a shocking element to the fact that like the, the land, the like sheep owner would just go get this other sheep. So we've, we've commented on there's kind of like. There's sort of like a scandalous setup. The scandalous setup in this is not that the land has been leased to tenants, right? It's that the land has been prepared for the tenants before it was leased out in the first place. And I think that's something we might miss if we read over this too quickly, is. The landowner has prepared everything for these, these tenants.  [00:49:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: So the, the, at the, the punchline of the parable where they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of, um, sovereignty and maybe a lowercase s in the, in the context of the parable, they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty and the rightful claim of the tenant or of the landowner on the, the profit of the land. And sort of like highlighter emphasized by the fact that they actually didn't do any of the work. There's a certain kind of like Amer, like American rugged individualism where we're kind of like, yeah, like if I planted all the crops, then it's kind of lame that this guy's coming in expecting to take a portion of it, right? Like, yeah, I guess he owns the land, so maybe he gets a little piece of it, but like, who does he think he is? All of that already is already short circuited. Like I. The, these tenants are not actually, um, portrayed as doing anything in this parable. That's right. Like they just lease the land. They, they, um, and leased is not really like the right. The right word, the, the Greek word is omi, which is like he gave over the land to them. Um, when we say leased, we have this idea that like the tenants pay to use the land and then like part of their contract is that whatever profits they reap, uh, off the land goes back to the, to the landowner. This is really more like the landowner graciously allowed them to live on this land, and the only payment he required was that they would eventually provide him part of the profit back. Like he's planted the land, he's put up the fence around it. He dug the wine press so that they could make a product out of it. He built the tower so it would be defended. Yes. And he gave it over to them essentially just to like live on until it was time for the harvest. And all he is asking for is basically like, alright, so this is my land. I've planted the vineyards, the profit is mine to have. And so when the time came for him to come claim that that's where they have now rejected him. Yes. That's where they've now said like, I know you did all the work and really graciously allowed us to live in this land, but we're gonna keep all of it for ourselves. That's the scandal of this. That's what I think like the original audience would've set up and like, wait a second here. Like, hold on. They didn't even plant the vineyards themselves. They didn't even build the tower themselves. That's really the force of this that I think we miss when we, when we overemphasize, trying to think through like what the original agricultural arrangements were. 'cause this is painted. Very different than what the original arrangements would've been typical for. Like this is a different scenario and I think intentionally so,  [00:52:09] Jesse Schwamb: and we need those words like rented, at least in English, to help us understand that it didn't belong to them. It wasn't a gift, right? It wasn't as if like it was just turned over in the sense that it belongs to you now do with it what you will. And it's very clear in the passage one, like you said, that the landowner does all those things. So it was a, you know, he completely set it up. I mean, this is just such a beautiful, I think, depiction of the hold of prophetic, you know, understanding of God's word here, but it's very clear that says the, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. So you're right. The scandal is that they're like, well, obviously. They need to give him his fruits, like  [00:52:48] Tony Arsenal: right.  [00:52:48] Jesse Schwamb: It was all set up before he left on this long journey. He then turned it over to them to care for, and that was really all that they were supposed to do. They had no role in this. And so it does like lead us in into this weird space where it's like, well, well what, what did the Pharisees think they were trying to do themselves? What does actually Jesus commenting on, on their own, like licit on their own initiative here, is he basically saying that not only are they not respecting his sovereignty, but they were trying to claim for themselves what only rightly belongs to God that even their position right. Society in culture as their representatives, God himself, they wanted to take that over for themselves, which he does bring that condemnation upon them in other parts of the scripture. So again, this is really hot. I think it's a, it's both heat and light, but there's no doubt that there's fire to this, right? Because it's a direct indictment that God the father set all of this up. You yourselves are on rented property, but guess what? Even the property that you've rented, I'm not exacting a tax from you as if like you have put forward and grown or supplied or created some kind of profitable outcome here. And I just want a piece of that. He's not even talking about tithing in that sense. What he's basically saying is, none of this belongs to you. Like how? Right? How dare you? None of this is yours. I set all of this up and in fact, because you've done so poor poorly at this, I'm gonna take it away from you and give it to those who actually produce fruit and guess what's gonna be the Gentiles? So it's, there's a wild. Amounts of condemnation packed into a very small story.  [00:54:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It really is.  [00:54:22] Tenants Add Nothing [00:54:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is nothing expected of these tenants. Right. There's no contract, like there's no terms, they, they really add nothing to the, the landowner's land, except I guess maybe they're the ones harvesting these, this fruit. Right. But even that's not explicit in the parable.  [00:54:43] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Right. Right. He, he does all just to steal your thunder, like he does all the verbs. Yes. All of the ves are done by the landowner.  [00:54:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Right  [00:54:51] Tony Arsenal: on. There is an implication that the, the tenants are somehow like the ones harvesting this, or they're the ones producing the wine, I guess, in the wine vat or the wine press. But at the end of the day. A normal tenant landowner agreement would be, I'm, you're, first of all, you're probably gonna pay me to use this land, right? You're paying me to use this land, and the way you pay me is you're gonna plant the, the gr the crop. You're gonna harvest it. You're gonna make the produce, and all I'm gonna do is let you live on this land. I'm gonna take the pro, like the profit, you're gonna pay me outta that profit. There is nothing asked or expected of these, these landowners, except to give the fruit that is already hit.  [00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly.  [00:55:37] Tony Arsenal: And, and that's where like, I think our Christian life, John Piper, I won't get into too much, but like John Piper is all in the news again for the same like finance, final salvation stuff that he's, he's been controversial for, for years. Right. And I think like this ties into that thi this is a, a direct parallel in many ways to the par, like the, the parable of the talents, which I'm, we we'll get into eventually is like. The, the landowner provides these talents or the, in this case, the land and the fruit. All of this is brought forth by his will and the fact that these, these worthless tenants do nothing and then still have the audacity to basically like refuse to. Provide back to this landowner what he has produced.  [00:56:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yes. That's  [00:56:26] Tony Arsenal: the key. That's, that's really the point of this parable.  [00:56:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.  [00:56:29] Tony Arsenal: Is somehow the Pharisees, and I think where the application of this is probably where we'll go next time, is like somehow the Pharisees have got in their mind that this thing that God has done in the people of Israel and is now doing in the Messiah, this ministry of the Messiah, in coming to claim the fruit, that somehow they have a right to lay claim to that and to withhold it from the Father. [00:56:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:56:54] Tony Arsenal: Even though they had nothing to do with anything that brought about, its, its, uh, its occurrence. Right. The Pharisees didn't create the nation of Israel. They didn't create the gospel. They didn't create the Messiah, and somehow they think that they can withhold the fruit of that ministry from the father and take like lay claim to it for themselves. And this is where I think. We have to trust the Holy Spirit and trust Jesus because there's really nothing in the gospels that explain what they were doing that sort of like showed them trying to like take over the Messiah's inheritance, right? But that's what this parable teaches, is that that's what they're being criticized for, that they were somehow trying to usurp the position of the Messiah. They were trying to become the mediators. They were trying to become the sons of God or the son of God who interceded from God for God's people. They were the ones that were gonna do that. They were the ones that were gonna accomplish that. So I think what'll be interesting next week is when we come, come back to this parable and sort of try to talk about like what does that actually teach us as believers 2000 years later, who aren't Pharisees. We're not trying to do that. What does this have to do with us? What does this have to say to us?  [00:58:07] Wrap Up and Next Week [00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think you're entirely right and I'm looking forward to, uh, well, we'll wrap it up officially.  [00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: Yes.  [00:58:13] Jesse Schwamb: In, in that next episode, it's gonna be  [00:58:15] Tony Arsenal: probably  [00:58:16] Jesse Schwamb: totally, probably, it's like a 70% chance, honestly. Loved ones,  [00:58:21] Tony Arsenal: 70%, 50. [00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There's definitely a meaningful material probability that that still won't be the last one once we get started, but we're gonna try. As always. I, I'm totally with you. I, I hope people take a little time to go read through this because I think the more we slow down and really try to set ourselves into the details and actually be particular about maybe envisioning the circumstances exactly as they're laid out for us and not as we sometimes try to fill out in our minds. I think maybe the biggest challenge that we've learned in this particular conversation is that verse 34, what is meant when the scripture says Now, when the harvest time approached. He that is the landowner sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. And I think what you've challenged here is this idea of, well, it doesn't say like he sent to go get them to harvest it. Right. Just saying like, listen, it's my fruit. Like let's do this thing. Like you knew I would show up. I've left you to, to care for all these things which I put into place. So here I am, I've sent my people to come and receive the fruit. And, uh, they can't do it. They refuse to do it. They won't do it. Uh, they kill everybody whom he sends, including his own son. And so, you're right, it's not even here. We gotta be careful about the actions and of presuming that they here, like the Pharisees were these people who were in charge somehow of even harvesting. There's, there's actually no mention of that except for it was just harvest time.  [00:59:40] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:59:40] Jesse Schwamb: And so it's even there, I think it's purposely ambiguous to remind us that God is doing all the things. I'm a little embarrassed that I missed the phrase. God does all the verbs when I was literally saying. The landowner does all these verbs.  [00:59:53] Tony Arsenal: It's okay.  [00:59:54] Jesse Schwamb: The first sentence I, I've, I've fallen down on you loved ones. I'm so sorry I missed it,  [00:59:58] Tony Arsenal: Jesse. It's okay because God does all the verbs  [01:00:02] Jesse Schwamb: is factually. That is factually correct, so we'll give this one. One more shot because at least there's so much for us. We could do a whole series just on this one, and I think if you're tracking with us, you're probably discovering that we also, sometimes in real time, as we really spend a little bit of effort kind of speaking about the particulars, find that these parables are more chock full than you think. There isn't just one idea. There's often many ideas coalescing around. Yeah. The central theme and the setup in the context is important. The word choice is important, and I am as well, just as you were saying, blown away by the way in which Jesus really evokes from the audience here, their own condemnation, their own judicial decree, which is, yeah, he's gonna take those wretches and kick 'em out. And they're saying it about themselves. This is what sin does, isn't it? This is what the natural man is like. Ken has to bow down to this great sovereign justice that comes from God while at the same time they think in their self-righteousness. They're proclaiming that in somebody else, and what they're really doing is they're putting it on their own head apart from God. We are all like that. All of us are like this. So glory beats a God who through the Holy Spirit, opens our eyes to receive and to understand the gospel, to be changed by, to be transformed by it because he does all the verbs. I'm so grateful that that's in fact what he does, that that God has planted us, that he's pull a wall around us, that he stick out this wine press for us, that he's built a tower to protect us and that he has grown the fruit in us because of all the things that he has done. [01:01:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, this is normally the part of the episode where we would do all of our announcements, uh, which just shows you we are not great podcasters. 'cause really we should do that at the beginning of, of the episode. Uh, but you know what, like if you wanna know what all of our announcements are, you're just gonna have to come back next week. 'cause we are out of time. We're not gonna do that. So I, I know that that's the most cliff of all cliffhangers is if you have listened this far and you want to hear about Oliver of our housekeeping assignment, an announcements and whatnot, you're just gonna have to come back next week and listen to it. Uh, because as much as my brain is telling me I should tell you all about it now, I'm not going to. So, Jesse, until next time when people join us for our housekeeping announcements, honor everyone.  [01:02:31] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 

In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse return to their parable series with an in-depth examination of the Laborers in the Vineyard from Matthew 20:1-16. This often-misunderstood parable confronts our natural inclination toward merit-based thinking and exposes the scandal of God's grace. The hosts unpack the covenantal language embedded in the text, particularly the workers' "grumbling"—a loaded term echoing Israel's wilderness rebellion. Through careful exegesis and theological reflection, they demonstrate how this parable dismantles religious entitlement while celebrating God's sovereign freedom to bestow mercy according to His purposes, not our calculations. The discussion offers fresh insights into grace, election, and the radical generosity that defines God's kingdom economy. Key Takeaways The parable operates on covenant logic, not economic fairness: The landowner's dealings with his workers reflect covenantal promise-keeping rather than marketplace transactions, establishing that God's relationship with His people is fundamentally gracious. "Grumbling" carries profound theological weight: The Greek word used for the workers' complaint is the same term in the Septuagint for Israel's wilderness rebellion—not mere dissatisfaction, but a covenantal accusation against God's faithfulness. Two types of workers represent two approaches to God: The first-hired workers who contracted for specific wages represent those relating to God through legal obligation and merit, while later workers who trusted the owner's promise represent faith-based relationship. The reversal of payment order is narratively essential: By paying the last workers first, the landowner deliberately exposes the merit-based assumptions of the first workers, forcing them to confront their entitlement. Grace doesn't negate justice—it transcends it: The landowner fulfills every contractual obligation while simultaneously exercising sovereign generosity beyond what is owed, demonstrating that mercy and justice coexist in God's character. The parable addresses the present kingdom, not just heaven: Because it includes grumbling and complaint, this parable describes life in God's kingdom now—the "already but not yet"—rather than the consummated state. Divine sovereignty in salvation is the theological climax: The landowner's declaration "Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?" directly addresses God's freedom in election and the scandal of unmerited grace. Key Ideas The Covenantal Nature of the Landowner's Dealings The parable's opening establishes a formal agreement between the landowner and the first workers: one denarius for a day's labor. This contractual arrangement is crucial for understanding what follows. Unlike marketplace haggling, this represents a covenant—the landowner binds himself to provide what he has promised. Tony emphasizes that even this initial contract is an act of condescension and grace, as the master had no obligation to employ anyone at all. As the day progresses, subsequent workers are hired with increasingly less formal agreements. By the third hour, the landowner promises only "whatever is right," and by the eleventh hour, no wage is even mentioned. These later workers enter the vineyard based entirely on the landowner's character and trustworthiness. This progression mirrors the movement from law to gospel—from contractual obligation to trusting promise. The theological implication is profound: those who relate to God based on His gracious word rather than calculated merit are actually in a more secure position than those who attempt to earn their standing through works. The Wilderness Echo: Grumbling as Covenant Violation The hosts make a critical exegetical observation about the Greek word for "grumbling" (γογγύζω) used in verse 11. This is not casual complaining but the identical term used throughout the Septuagint to describe Israel's covenant rebellion in the wilderness. When the workers grumble "upon receiving" their wages, they're not merely expressing disappointment about pay inequality—they're filing a covenant lawsuit against the master, accusing him of unfaithfulness. This connection to Numbers 16 and Exodus 16-17 is devastating. The Israelites' wilderness grumbling wasn't about logistics or comfort; it was fundamentally about doubting God's covenant fidelity. By employing this loaded terminology, Matthew signals that the first workers' complaint is nothing less than accusing God of covenant violation. The landowner's response ("Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?") is a covenant defense—he has fulfilled his obligations precisely. The workers' real offense is not miscalculation but begrudging God's freedom to show mercy beyond what is contractually required. The "Evil Eye" and Begrudging God's Grace The final rhetorical question—"Or do you begrudge my generosity?"—contains another Jewish idiom often lost in translation. The Greek literally reads, "Is your eye evil because I am good?" This "evil eye" imagery appears throughout Scripture as a metaphor for envy, stinginess, and resentment toward another's blessing. The landowner's question cuts to the heart: are you cursing me for being generous? This directly parallels Jonah's response to Nineveh's salvation. Jonah had just experienced miraculous deliverance through the great fish, yet when God showed identical mercy to the Ninevites, Jonah's response was essentially, "I knew you were gracious—that's why I ran!" The parable exposes the same perverse logic: those who have received covenant mercy begrudging that same mercy extended to others. For the Pharisees listening to Jesus, this was an indictment of their resentment toward tax collectors and sinners receiving the kingdom. For Christians today, it challenges any sense of spiritual superiority based on how long we've been in the kingdom or how much we've sacrificed. Memorable Quotes Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity? That 'or' is a logical connector—either I'm not allowed to do what I want with my belongings, which is ridiculous, or if I am allowed, then you must be mad at me for being generous. Those are the only options. — Tony Arsenal The grumbling in the Old Testament in this context is a covenantal accusation. These workers aren't just complaining about not getting what they thought they would—they're questioning the veracity of the covenant that was made. — Tony Arsenal Most of us are this eleventh-hour call. It's much better to be in the place of that younger brother who comes in and repents than to be the older brother who is stubborn and finds some reason to come before God with self-righteous grievances. — Jesse Schwamb Full Episode Transcript [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 488 of the Reformer Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  [00:01:13] Tony Arsenal: and I am still Tony, and this is the podcast where Tony comes back. Hey brother.  [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. The band is back together again, man. It's reunited and boy, do you feel it? It feels good, doesn't  [00:01:26] Tony Arsenal: it? I do, I do. I'm excited to come back. It was nice to take a break. [00:01:29] Jesse Schwamb: Good.  [00:01:29] Tony Arsenal: I, uh, I've been, you know, texted with you a couple times. Just it was, I did my best to sort of not think about the podcast because that's sort of defeats the purpose of taking a break from something if you spend a lot of time thinking about it. Um, so I'm back. I'm refreshed. I'm ready to go.  [00:01:44] Break and Work Chaos [00:01:44] Tony Arsenal: I appreciate the listeners' patience. Uh, it's been sort of a weird, crazy busy time at work. Uh, there's a lot going on. I, I lost like. 60% of my staff in the course of like three weeks. And, um, I'm still kind of in the thick of it, but we're coming out of it. So took a little bit of time to just make sure that I was having a, an appropriate space to de-stress from that and take care of my family and attend to worship. And, um, it was really a, a blessing to have that. Uh, sort of sabbatical. Ironically, the sabbatical wars were going on at the same time on Twitter, and Jesse is blissfully unaware of that 'cause he's not involved in in the Twitter. That's true. Um, but yeah, just took a little break and it's kinda like overblown it, to call it a sabbatical. Like this is a podcast, it's a hobby, but, but it was nice to have, uh, a little bit of extra time, you know, couple hours extra week, uh, uh, each week of extra time to just decompress and, uh, play with the kids and spend time with my wife and clean the house a little bit, which was good.  [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is always good to have a clean house. You look great. You seem refreshed. The voice sounds good, and I'm like, I don't know, in year seven or eight of my Twitter sabbatical, it's going great so far. I feel like I haven't missed a whole lot. The world still seems wild and I'm sure, or X, right? We gotta go X on this. It's  [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: always Twitter. It's always gonna be Twitter. I don't care what Elon Musk  says.  [00:02:56] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm listen. I'm totally fine with that.  [00:02:58] Back to Parables [00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: And I teased this in the last episode, but we can't be stopped. I mean, people should know this by now, we have an inexorable march through the parables of Jesus's true. That will not be stopped. We're always gonna come back until there are no more. And on this episode, we're gonna be hanging out in Matthew 20, talking about laborers in the Kingdom of Heaven.  [00:03:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I'm, I'm, I'm excited to get back into it. I'm excited to get back into the word together with everybody. I'm excited to clear whatever that was on in my throat out  [00:03:27] Jesse Schwamb: emotion,  [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: live on the air. Uh, but yeah, it'll be good. I'm, I'm stoked. I mean, I love this stuff and it's good to be back.  [00:03:32] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you had the rest. Now let's talk about labor. So speaking of labor, it's, it's time for you to work up here, Tony. Are you affirming with or denying against on this episode?  [00:03:42] Tony Arsenal: Uh, I'm affirming something and I'm hopeful, uh, that just a little behind the scenes activity here. Jesse recorded episode 487, like an hour and a half ago. I have not yet listened to it, so I don't know if you did an affirmation and I I did. If you did. I hope it's not the same one.  [00:03:58] Jesse Schwamb: I did not. You're  [00:03:59] Tony Arsenal: safe. Uh, good. So I'm safe.  [00:04:01] Artemis II Hype [00:04:01] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I'm affirming the Artemis two mission. Um, oh, nice. Have you been, I mean, I know you're not on Twitter, but I'm sure there's news elsewhere. Uh, this amazing mission around the moon, um, for astronaut, for astronauts, I think, um, the furthest man space travel, um, since the Apollo program. Um. Pretty intense, pretty amazing pictures, right? The camera technologies amazing. Increased exponentially, uh, since we were there last. Um, this is ostensibly in preparation for an actual moon landing, which who knows when that will be? Um, but as far as I've seen, the mission was a resounding success. There was no right. I think they had, they ran into a few little hiccups early on with some technical things, but nothing crazy. I have not heard. Um, I know they did touch down and they did reentry. Um, I've not heard anything one way or another, but I'm assuming since I have not heard terrible, tragic news that they made it through, did they do the reentry? I'm really, apparently I'm not actually paying as much attention to this as I thought I was. I saw a lot of information about reentry, but I guess, I don't know for sure when that happened or is happening.  [00:05:05] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, by this point, when people listen to it, it'll be old news anyway, right? So  [00:05:09] Tony Arsenal: For sure. Yeah. And either, either it went terribly wrong and I'm gonna feel awful, or it went fine and I'm gonna feel a little silly for. Throwing a caveat that it went terribly wrong out there. But, um, it's cool. It's, it's amazing. I mean, I, I commented to my wife the other day and she's kinda like, yeah, maybe we should like, spend that money on people who are on the planet. I was like, okay, I can, I can buy that wisdom. But, um, there's something very cool and very Genesis, uh, one, ask Genesis one and two, ask about flying out into space and taking dominion over Yeah, for sure. Over a, a little ball of rock, uh, you know, uh, 25,000 miles away or whatever it is. Um. And, you know, I'm like an engineering nerd. I, I don't know anything about engineering, but I love watching YouTube videos that explain stuff like this. And  [00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: me  [00:05:52] Tony Arsenal: too, all of the videos that have cropped up now about free return and how, like they're able to basically like do minimal burn on the thrusters to get into the right trajectory and then just like meet the moon in the place it's gonna be. And then the, you know, the moon's gravity captures it and whips it back around and then shoots it back towards Earth. And for the most part, they're able to do all of that with relatively minor, um, relatively minor energy output because they're just utilizing physics and gravity and math, um, to fly to the moon and come back. Yes. It's pretty crazy amazing. So, yeah. Amazing. And the photos of like the, the sort of like new versions of the Earthrise photos are really, really phenomenal. Um, they're crisp, they're clean, they're obviously like the best, the best actual pho photographic images we've had of the lunar surface. Um. And the, the far side of the lunar surface, which we get all sorts of like telescopic photos and things of this side of the lunar surface because it's tightly locked and is facing us at all times. We don't get a ton of really great photography of the far side of the moon, which is a big part of what this mission was, so,  [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:06:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. If you haven't seen the photos, I mean, they're out there, they're amazing. There will be even more available once we get back. You know, they, they're transmitting only the most stellar, amazing ones. Um, and, but they're taking, I'm sure thousands and thousands of photos and, um, so yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm affirming the Artemis two mission. Um. It's just amazing what, what people can do with common grace, you know? That's right. In insight into nature. Um, I don't know anything about the astronauts. I don't know anything about their religious faith or their spiritual life or anything like that. But, um, the people who design this, the people who fly it, they're just tapping into the truth that's present in God's creation. So good on them. Uh, either I'm glad they got home, wish they have a safe home coming, or something along those lines, I guess. I don't know.  [00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, you'll be happy to know that NASA is reporting that the four astronauts are an excellent condition after they landed in the Pacific Ocean. So  [00:07:47] Tony Arsenal: good.  [00:07:47] Jesse Schwamb: All, all appears to be well. And it says they have a giant SD card of pictures that's they've been taking. Yeah. And saving. I'm sure. They were just, they were just too big to send to over wifi.  [00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Like massive wideness. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they have a ton that they didn't send because you know Right. Data rates to the moon are pretty high. Yeah.  [00:08:05] Jesse Schwamb: Ex. Yeah.  [00:08:05] Tony Arsenal: This economy is crazy. So  [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. In this economy. Really In this economy. Yeah, exactly.  [00:08:11] Cosmic Worship Reflections [00:08:11] Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right. This is good. I haven't talked about this at all. It's hard not to get just stoked, even in the amateur way about the science, the technology, the physics of all this stuff, and then even the astronauts just being overwhelmed by what they're seeing. [00:08:24] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm.  [00:08:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to get pulled into that and think about the universe that God has created and find that there is something transcendent just, uh, by observing all of these things. Yeah. Like even casually, which I think shows, again, this is literally the, the heavens and the earth crying out for God, showing his immeasurable power and, you know, immortal nature. It's incredible that we can even see and be a part of some of these things. Just wild.  [00:08:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's crazy that they can get signals to the moon. I mean, I drive home from Dartmouth College and I go through half of the spot there, and I don't have a cell signal, but we can get images from the moon. Um, so yeah, it's great. It's great. Check it out if you haven't seen it. If you haven't heard about it, I don't know what you're doing. Uh, this is probably the largest major scientific advancement in our generation. Um, in terms of like big scale scientific enterprise projects. There's been a lot of really amazing technology that's been developed. But this is like the first big. Almost like risky kind of scientific,  [00:09:30] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:09:30] Tony Arsenal: I dunno. Gambit or I dunno, gamble that we've done in a long time. Big deal. I mean, big a lot. Deal of things. Deal. Nothing went wrong. Nothing ma major went wrong. Praise God that they all got back to the planet safely. Right. But, um, a lot of things could have gone wrong, uh, and they didn't. So check out the photos, check out the scientific data they're gonna get. I mean, I'm sure they've got all sorts of information about the way the, the, the space ship moved, all of that stuff. It's gonna be really interesting to see kind of how this all comes about.  [00:09:56] Jesse Schwamb: Get some worship on, right? Yeah. I mean this is what a one, a thing to be reminded about how big and how glorious God is. [00:10:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:10:01] Jesse Schwamb: And, and to realize, like you said, the risks of this exploration. And this is God again, creating all of this outta nothing. Why? Yeah. Just absolutely wild. Incredible.  [00:10:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for  [00:10:12] Jesse Schwamb: sure. Blown away.  [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. What about you, Jesse? What do you have for us?  [00:10:15] Bayes and Predictability [00:10:15] Jesse Schwamb: I got affirmation. It's equally nerdy, and actually this is as is always the case. This is why one of many reasons I miss you is it, it dovetails so nicely, so I'm affirming with a book. It's called Everything Is Predictable, how Esy and Statistics Explains the World. It's by a guy named Tom Chivers. I know this sounds super nerdy, but hear me out on this because Thomas Bayes, if you don't know this guy is first kind of like a wild and interesting guy, but this whole theory he put forward is super interesting. And this book is not like a mathematics book. It's like reads almost like a statistical thriller, which as it came outta my mouth, realized it was not maybe more ingratiating. I could have chosen better words than statistical thriller. But Thomas Bayes was alive in the 17 hundreds. And what's interesting to me at least about him, is he was an English statistician, who was a Presbyterian minister actually. He was a non-conformist and his, this whole theorem that he developed was actually published after his death. And the non-conformist part is super interesting. It's all in this book, even some of his different theological ideas. But because he was non-conformist, it basically meant like he couldn't learn. He was kicked out of all the English universities. He had to go to Scotland. Even all of that shaped how he came up with this particular theorem. But the gist of it is. Rather than treating like probabilities, as we think about it as this fixed frequency, you know, how many times does this thing occur? He argued and realized that it should represent a degree of belief and then you would update that belief rationally as new evidence comes in. And I know that sounds super quaint, but this is like what machine learning is based on medical diagnosis. A lot of like space travel is based on this in terms of understanding uncertainty and systems spam, all of that stuff. Here's an example, I think Tony, because we are, we have to carry forward with the top 50 medical podcast thing, right? We've got going on here. Lemme just give everybody an example of why you need this and why you automatically think this way. So. Statistics is really important, especially in medical testing. This was really prevalent in during COVID. So there's two ways that you can describe how a medical test performs you. You know this already, Tony, you're an expert. So one would be like sensitivity. So like how AIG  [00:12:19] Tony Arsenal: not an expert.  [00:12:20] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, you're definitely an expert in testing. Here we go. So one would be like sensitivity. How good is the test at catching people who are sick? So if you're sick, you, you want the test to identify that, that you're sick. That's sensitivity. So a test with a 99% sensitivity is gonna correctly identify 99 out of a hundred people who are truly sick. It always gonna miss one person. It's a false negative. The other half of that coin is something called specificity. So if sensitivity is all about catching the people who are sick, specificity is gonna say, how good is the test at clearing people who are not sick? And so a test with 99% specificity, you might have correctly guessed, is gonna identify or clear 99 out of a hundred healthy people. Now if you have a test. Both of those 99% sensitive and 99% specific, you might be thinking, that is the dream. That's exactly what I want. That that test is gonna be so precise and accurate. How could my intuition fail me? But this is the thing. It actually fails all the time, and here's why. Let's say that. You go out and you screen a group of people, a general population for a rare disease that affects one in a thousand people. One in a thousand people, rare disease. So if you screen 10,000 people from the general population, that means that truly only 10 of them are going to have the actual disease. I'm not gonna do all the math 'cause it'll, oh, this is already making for amazing podcasting. But here's the bottom line. That test, which sounds so good on the face, is going to identify 109 people as truly sick or truly having disease. But the problem is that only 10 of them actually have it. That means that only there's, it only has a success rate of 9%. There's only 9% chance you actually have the disease, but it's falsely identified. The short end of this is Bayes corrects that problem. He fixes it with his theorem so that we get to the right number of people. That's what's called like a base fallacy rate. It's not taking into account that really only 10 people should have this particular disease or this sickness. So I know that's sounds super nerdy, but so much of our lives are based on this. We have a prior belief or a prior set of things that we understand about the world. And then as evidence comes in, we refine that. That sounds so normal and normative, but it's revolutionary in this book actually. Bayes versus what's called like frequentist or frequent, um, probability is like hotly debated. People actually throw down over this theorem. So it's a really fun read. Go check out. Everything is predictable. Al Bayesian statistics explains our world. It really is for everybody. And then you can impress your friends with all the statistical pross you're gonna have when you're done reading it.  [00:14:56] Tony Arsenal: Like the medical administrator hat that I can't always take off is like, why would we screen 10,000 people? Are, are they all symptomatic? Are none of them symptomatic? But suppose it doesn't really  [00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: matter for the example. That's a great, so generally what happens here is, let's say it's like some kind of rare form of cancer, unless you use Bayesian statistics, what you'll find is you'll get these false positive rates. So these tests do use Bayesian statistics. It corrects, in other words, for this problem. So there might be a lot of people that are gonna screen for this because if you, you wanna know if you have it, but you don't wanna get it wrong and say that you do. So this ensures his approach ensures that you get it. Right. It's wild. Fascinating stuff.  [00:15:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I would think actually, you know, there's probably, there's other mechanisms as well where they would, where they would sort of screen out. People that shouldn't be tested or help identify false negatives, false positives. Um, but yeah, that's, that's interesting. I probably won't read that book, but it sounds like an interesting read. I just don't have a lot of room on my A TBR shelf.  [00:15:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, listen. That, that's fair.  [00:15:57] Goodreads DNF Update [00:15:57] Jesse Schwamb: By the way, here's like a, a side affirmation. I think you and I both share speaking like books and cataloging books. If you use Good Reads, good Reads. Right. Finally adding a list of the Do Not Did Not Finish book. That's fantastic. This, this might be an example for some people, so pick it up and even if you don't have a place for it, guess where you can put it on the did not finish list. Yeah. Good Reads.  [00:16:16] Tony Arsenal: That's finally, that's one of those like, like why didn't they add that 15 years ago? Kind of an updates and you get the email and they're like, we're so excited to introduce the did Not Finish thing. And we're like, yeah. Like of course. Like, duh. It's likes, like, we're proud to introduce that. Your keypad now has a zero on it.  [00:16:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right. So  [00:16:37] Tony Arsenal: yeah. I'm, I'm excited about the DNR, um, the DNF, um, I'm so excited. I can't even remember what it's called. Yeah. The shelf. But, uh, very, very useful. The DNR list  [00:16:47] Jesse Schwamb: is a diff it is a different list. Speaking of medical things, it's a different  [00:16:50] Tony Arsenal: list. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely a different thing. Usually it's not a list. It's a list of one in most cases.  [00:16:56] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly,  [00:16:57] Tony Arsenal: yeah. You can't put other people on your  [00:17:00] Jesse Schwamb: DNR  [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: This,  [00:17:00] Jesse Schwamb: I suppose. Yeah, I should clarify that. You can really, you can only really put yourself, or I suppose somebody for whom you have that kind of authority over on that list, but I was thinking that more from like a medical perspective, that somewhere there would be a database in which there might be a list of DNR. I don't know.  [00:17:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I'm not sure. Probably there was at some point, but I think with medical chart technology now, that's probably like a. A moot point. Yeah. They don't need to be able to like cross reference a master list anymore. They just look in the patient's electronic record. We're really like in the weeds here. You can tell it's been a while since I've, I've podcasted. I don't really remember how to do this.  [00:17:35] Jesse Schwamb: This is great.  [00:17:36] Segue to Matthew 20 [00:17:36] Jesse Schwamb: I think at this point we try to make some kind of awkward segue that is mildly successful. Again, probably has statistically like a 20 to 27% chance of being successful and really hitting the mark. Yeah. So do you have anything that's gonna move us into this?  [00:17:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I feel like you've been podcasting for the last several weeks without me and I've been working hard and now I'm kind of coming in as Johnny come lately and we're gonna get paid the same amount so. Even though you've worked harder for longer and I'm coming in late to the game here. [00:18:03] Jesse Schwamb: Oh man. Ple loved ones. Please tell me you got that. Please tell me you got all of that. That's, that's what you show up for here. Yeah, that was  [00:18:10] Tony Arsenal: a deep cut.  [00:18:11] Jesse Schwamb: That, that was beautiful. And I think leads us right into Matthew 20. So I think we've got at least 16 verses to get through here. Maybe again, if we're gonna keep a statistical theme here, something about engineering and math, all that stuff, we'll let everybody else pick the over under and whether or not we're gonna get through this and how many verses that's going to be. But at this point, we might as well begin.  [00:18:32] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah.  [00:18:33] Read the Parable [00:18:33] Tony Arsenal: I'll start by reading. Uh, we're here in Matthew chapter 20, the first 16 versus this is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and it reads. For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborer laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into the vineyard and going out about the third hour, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace. He said to them, you go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right, I will give you. So they went, going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the 11th hour, he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, why do you stand here idle all day? They said to him, because no one has hired us. And he said to them, you go into the vineyard too. And when the evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, call the laborers and pay them with their wages, beginning with the last up to the first. And when those hired about the 11th hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now, when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it, they grumbled at the master of the house saying, these last worked only one hour and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat. And he replied to one of them, friend, I'm doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me? For a denarius, take what belongs to you and go, I choose to give the last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you beg, do you begrudge my generosity? So the last will be first and the first will be last. Now I just wanna head this off. I did bite my tongue earlier and I probably am lisping and this is like a running gag. We thought that we'd resolved it. Uh, so if you hear me stumble over my words a little bit, it's just, it's just the struggle bus today.  [00:20:24] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, this is the, these are like the real things we have to deal with when the podcasting, like the real threats, the real injuries. I appreciate you like working through it. Like you just get back up and you walk it off with your tongue.  [00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, my, my, uh, my podcasting hiatus was actually just a recovery of the last time I bit my tongue. I just needed a couple weeks to, no, I'm just kidding.  [00:20:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we didn't wanna say.  [00:20:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:44] Kingdom Fairness and Grumbling [00:20:44] Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, this is a, this is a parable that follows right on the heels, um, of kind of everything we've been talking about. And I think as we go through these parables and we look at them and we, we sort of pick them up and we look at the different facets of them, we sort of compare them to each other. We kind of, we kind of place them in their context really. They all have basically the same theme, right? Like they're all kind of circulating around these same topics. In this parable, it's circulating around this idea that, um, the, the owner of the vineyard, the master of the vineyard, is allowed to pay the people he employs whatever he wants. And as long as the payment that is due to an individual is received by that individual, then what other people receive and how they receive it and how hard they've worked and how hard they didn't work. That's really not germane to whether or not the, the laborer received a fair wage, uh, in the first place. Right. So we're, we're circling around themes of kind of fairness of, uh, of sort of resentment, I think for resentment at the master's generosity, which has been a big theme in previous ones. So this will be good for us to expand on. There's always little nuggets and kernels of things that are different from other parables, and then it's interesting to always see the ways that they kind of line up and, and tell us similar things.  [00:21:57] Jesse Schwamb: And this parable is unique to Matthew. Yeah. And it does function as this exposition or expansion of what Jesus says in chapter 19 where it says, but many who are first will be last. And the last first, which is repeated with this lovely like inverted emphasis in, at the end of this as you just read. So it belongs to this like interesting cluster of teacher teachings on discipleship and reward nature of the kingdom of God. And we've, we've spoken a lot about that. I think I was just reminded of this as you were, you were. Reading this, I feel like I remember this from some teaching, like this parable is kind of like a unique chiasm that's anchored on the landowner, sovereign generosity, which you brought up. And then there's the complaints of the first hired, which is mirrored by the late comers vulnerability. And then the landowners, two speeches which divide everything, kind of provide sandwich and the like, the theological climax. It does start in that really familiar way, which we've gotten accustomed to thinking about that introductory formula of the kingdom of heaven is like, and it signals of course that what follows is not gonna be a lesson in economics, but it's gonna use all this economic language as theological disclosure for how God's kingdom operates. And it starts again, like you said, with this master of the house, which to me seems. Pretty clearly like a, a God figure himself. Yeah. It's, that's kind of like a reoccurring mathian image. I think. So we've got this vineyard, which of course has all this symbolism, steeply rooted in Israel's covenant imagination and evokes God's people and his redemptive labor among them. So, man, now that I'm saying this all loud, is this thing like super pregnant with all kinds of like imagery and meaning?  [00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's, it's always good to remember, although parables have kind of some parables, most parables have sort of distinct discreet, symbolic elements where like, this represents that this represents that almost in an allegorical form. And, and in some cases, like purely in allegorical form, where it's like pilgrim's progress where each, each individual, each entity, each location each represents some sort of symbolic value. But we have to remember that when, when it says the parable of the kingdom of heaven is like the master of the house, it's not just like the master of the house. Yes. Right. It's like this whole scenario. Yes. It's, it's like. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like everything that follows, it's like the entire, um, the entire paree here. That's what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. And one of the things that I think is striking about this is the kingdom of heaven is like some people complaining, like the people complaining about, some people are getting the same wage for less work. Um, that is part of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. So I think we sometimes think of, of. The kingdom of heaven in, um, in the parables, we think of it as though God is just saying, this is what heaven is like. Right? Jesus Just saying like, this is what heaven is like, but the kingdom of heaven, that language is broader than what we normally would say, uh, is. We're thinking of heaven, like in the, the spiritual abode where God lives and the angels live. Um, where, where the departed saints are waiting for the resurrection, the kingdom of heaven is, is also inclusive of the, the sort of like. Time now between the victory of Christ on the cross and the consummation of the kingdom and the last day, the kingdom of heaven is inclusive of that time period too. And so this parable sort of situates us. I think it situates us in that pre consummated state where we're talking about what it's like to be a part of the kingdom of heaven here and now in our fallen state, but still solidly in the kingdom of heaven. 'cause there's not gonna be any complaining or grumbling about God's justice in God's fairness once we're in the final resurrected state. Right? Sure. Nobody's gonna be looking back and be like, yeah, you were way too gracious for that guy. Nobody's gonna be playing the Jonah part when we're all resurrected and we're worshiping for, for all time going forward. So this parable, because there are elements of. Dissatisfaction or elements of grumbling or complaining similar to like the, the parable of the prodigal son. There's this sun figure, the, the older sun figure who like is just a bonehead and doesn't get it. Well, that can't be talking about the people who are in the resurrection kingdom in the final kingdom. It's gotta be talking about people who are still awaiting the resurrection of the body and who are still not yet. Uh, and even in, in that parable, the, the older son doesn't even seem to be a figure who's, who's regener. Maybe he does become regener at some point in the future, but he doesn't seem to be. In, even in God's kingdom, he doesn't seem to be, even among God's people, he's consistently placed outside of the field. You don't even know he exists until Nick halfway through the parable. This is similar in that there are these workers, they're receiving their wages and some of them are, are outwardly dissatisfied and grumbling against the master of the house. Um, so I think if we think about parables as describing heaven rather than the kingdom of heaven, we can lose sight of, of what's actually being said in a lot of them. [00:26:50] Contracts Versus Grace [00:26:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's really good stuff because it strikes me that there are like, strangely, two groups here mentioned, I, I find this really kind of fascinating. We, I think we should talk about this, like the first group has like the most formal agreement, it's almost a legal contract, right? Various was like a standard day laborers wage sufficient mostly for subsistence. And so that detail seems theologically loaded to me. These workers relate to the landowner on the basis of a contract and what is owed. And so their claim at the end of the day will be exactly that. They're owed something and they know it, and that sets up Then this contrast with a second group, which is mostly all about grace because by the time we get to that third hour, like. Approximately like 9:00 AM then we're beginning this pattern repeated at the sixth and the ninth hours. And crucially, for those workers who go out, go out and get recruited, there's no wage that's specified for them. Only the promise of like whatever is right. And so they enter the vineyard, not on the basis of a contract, but on the basis of like the owner's word and character. And that seems to be like more of a picture of trust and not, not calculation. Yeah. Separate than like the first group. And that marketplace, idleness, as I read this, doesn't imply like laziness because verse seven clarifies like they just had not been hired. Right? They were overworked, they were unemployed. They were marginalized. So it does set up, like you said, everything you just talked about, about the kind of this, I like that. Like the Jonah, the Jonah whiners or whatever, like yeah, they want to complain about this, right? There are, and there are two, two separate groups that have kind of been brought into the fold, not under different terms or pretenses, but differently. [00:28:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think too, bear's saying, um. Although there are elements of parables that are very, very directly applicable. Mm. We shouldn't read this as though every, every specific thing in the parable is not a parable. Right. Right. I think we can look at this and we can go, you know, you can read this in a way where, oh yeah, there's some people actually earn their, earn their wage, they earn ary. Right. It's a fair contract. And they work all day and he says, well, I'm gonna give you what's right, what you, what I owe you.  [00:28:45] God Owes Nothing [00:28:45] Tony Arsenal: The reality is God doesn't owe any of us anything. Right? Right. He owes us wrath and judgment and destruction. And so even, even the people who are the hard workers in the kingdom of God don't merit and never could merit, um, to, in a certain sense, in a strict sense and stick with me before you send your, your angry emails in a real strict sense. Even Adam couldn't merit. What was, well, it was guaranteed to him, according to the Covenant of Works, God had to condescend to make the covenant of works in order for Adam to have any sort of fruition of his blessedness. So there there's no natural obligation, strict obligation that God has to reward the work of his creatures because nothing they could do could ever be sufficient enough to obligate him. So the, the obligation of himself, and that's, this is where I do think this is strong, the fact that he obligates himself to these workers to give them their denarius after a hard day's work  [00:29:37] Jesse Schwamb: exactly  [00:29:37] Tony Arsenal: is itself. A covenantal, um, contractual, yes. But I actually read this as sort of a covenantal thing and the, the strange part is that the people don't recognize the sort of semi gracious covenantal nature of this. Yes.  [00:29:50] Grace In The Hiring [00:29:50] Tony Arsenal: I think, um, you know, there have been times when I, where I've been unemployed, um, not for very long. Now, I know some people face unemployment for a lot longer than I ever have, but I know there was times where I was, I was looking for work and someone would say to me like, Hey, you know, my, my, my lawn needs to be mowed. Could you come over and I'll, I'll give you 25 bucks to mow my lawn. It's a small lawn. Um. That's a gracious act in most cases. Right, right. Um, yes, I'm performing a task. Yes, they're paying me, but they didn't have to offer me that work. They didn't have to offer me that job, especially when it's something that like they could have accomplished themselves. They could have just done it themselves. Um, so I think there's an element of that here, that there's, there's a condescension of the master to these workers, to these laborers who are not part of his household. These are not, they're not slaves. These are not people who are part of his household, who are regular employees. These are people that he goes out into the market to, to find and to hire. And as we see some of, some of these mark, like the difference between the ones that are hired and the ones that are not hired until later in the day, the parable's not super clear about what it is. Just that they're not hired, it doesn't say the lazy ones were left there. The ones were exactly, that were ugly or had like limp legs or like just couldn't cut it. It just says like there was some that didn't get hired. Um, so there's a gracious element of this, and that makes the recognition at the end or the lack of recognition at the end by these full day laborers, the, the sort of like recognition, this, this entitled ness, um, that actually makes it all the worst. It's like the people who are outwardly attached to the covenant of grace. Um, I know all the Baptists in our, our group, their heads just exploded, but like are outwardly attached to the covenant of grace, um, who wanna somehow complain about like the graciousness of the covenant of grace that they're outwardly attached to it. It's just sort of like a form of, of theological and temporary insanity, I think. And that's what we see on full display here.  [00:31:40] Jesse Schwamb: It's definitely all grace. You're right that nobody's gonna get injustice right in this parable. And I think that's definitely exemplified the further out you go in this hiring order. [00:31:49] Eleventh Hour Mercy [00:31:49] Jesse Schwamb: So by the time you get to 5:00 PM which is pretty extraordinary, right? Only really like one hour remains before sense, right? It's the end of the working day.  [00:31:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:31:56] Jesse Schwamb: You can imagine like these guys who are being hired at the hour probably can contribute very little in the last hour of the day, right? But this owner goes out and hires them and no agreement is stated whatsoever. It's just pure grace. The landowner's question, why do you stand here idle all day? I think to your point, underlies their vulnerability. They were not idle by choice, presumably. And so I think we rightly here in this, like a foreshadowing of those who are called the late in redemptive history, Gentile sinners, the seemingly least qualified for kingdom membership. All of that I think is at play and it's all, it's getting this lovely setup of all these groups to help us understand what that kingdom is actually like.  [00:32:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:32:35] Reverse Payroll Setup [00:32:35] Tony Arsenal: And then we have this, um, this is where the sort of dramatic tension turns, right? The end of the day comes and, uh, the master calls the, the people that he brought last, right? He calls the people who'd only been there for an hour and he starts to go down the list of the people who, the people who were last, and the people who came in next. And the people who came in next, right? And the workers who had contracted at the beginning of the day. Um, they're watching this happen and they're kind of going, oh, this is gonna be good. Like, that guy's only been here for an hour and he got a denarius. You know, the logic is probably like, I'm gonna get 12 denarius, like I'm gonna go 12 days worth of work. Um, because I think there's an assumption on their part, um, that the master's fair that he is, he's providing an equitable wage. Um, of course the master is fair, but he's providing an equitable wage that's commensurate with the work delivered. A delivered, delivered, right? And that, that's the key to this parable.  [00:33:26] Merit Mindset Exposed [00:33:26] Tony Arsenal: I think the expectation that God. Helps those who help themselves. Right? God rewards those who put in the hard work. God. God provides blessing or salvation according to the merit provided by the one who's being saved. That perspective is what's on full display here. Yes. By the people who are, uh, the ones who contracted for the full day. They're not thinking about the covenant that they have with this person or the contract they have with this person. They're not thinking about the fact that they agreed to work for the day in order to earn a day's wage. They're thinking about how this actually is gonna work out great in their favor. They're looking at this as a strictly merit-based kind of a, a thing. And you would think that like when the, the one hour people come in, they get a denarius, and then the three hour people come in and they get a denarius. You'd think they would pick up on it at some point, but then in the course of the payroll, it doesn't seem that they do. They still get to the bottom of the list and think they're gonna get more compared to the other people who all got the same.  [00:34:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that display piece is critical to this. It is like complete setup. Like you can imagine he, the landowner calling everybody together at the end of the day and they're all standing around. Some of them are exhausted because they've again born all their work in the heat of the day on their backs. They're tired, they're dirty, maybe they're exhausted. And he starts in this reverse order. And by the way, we should note that there is something here that's beautiful in that the law, the landowner is law abiding because right evening payment is mandated in the Torah. So we see all this taking place as to fulfill the law in some ways. But the reversal of the order that last of first is like such deliberative and good narrative storytelling and staging, isn't it? 'cause it ensures that the first hired workers are going to witness the payment of those who work the least. And if without that order, if you just did it the other way around, the more a crisis of the parable disc like completely goes away.  [00:35:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So this execution of the payment at the owner's will, it just shows that he has. He's completely independent. His sovereignty belong. The sovereignty belongs to the master alone. And so this 11th hour workers receiving a full day's wage for one hour of work, that's like an act of sheer generosity. It's not proportional justice. And I think as reform, people, maybe all of us at some point have had this conversation about predestination and justice and mercy. And again, really I think putting a crowbar between this idea that nobody is receiving injustice, but some are receiving mercy and grace. And here these first hired workers seeing this form, like you said, this expectation that they're gonna receive more, like you said, where that came from. Yeah, it's just them, right? It's purely manufactured in their own reasoning. It's not anchored in the covenantal promise and certainly not witnessed in the grace that they should be receive, like perceiving as the payments get doled out, like sequentially moving in their reverse order toward those who have worked the longest. But their expectation reveals that they have fundamentally misread like the landowner's character. They're still operating in the register of a contract and not grace.  [00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And you know, I think to sort of lock this covenant covenantal frame and sort of like lack of recognition of the covenant into place too, when you look at the language of this parable, um, and especially kind of what it's following up on, it's coming on the heels of this interaction with this rich, rich young ruler who comes in and he thinks that he's gonna earn eternal life by keeping the commandments. Um, and, and he, he has this outward sense or this outward display of pty. He's calling Jesus good. He's saying he, you know, he keeps the commandments, Jesus doesn't even disagree with him actually, that he has connect. Yes. You know, I think it's implied that, well, of course you haven't, but he, he still is graciously trying to like, convince this guy, no, you actually need to abandon your self righteousness and, and pursue and follow me. Um. But this is a parable where like other people are listening, right? There's other witnesses. This isn't like the rich young ruler came to him in the middle of the night, like Nicodemus. This is something that's happened on PO on in the public. So we can anticipate that the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the scribes and the lawyers were all aware of this. They may have been there, but they were at least aware of this happening. And I think there's some language in here that is actually directed at those people.  [00:37:30] Grumbling As Accusation [00:37:30] Tony Arsenal: And, and here's where it comes in, is you get to verse, um, we'll start reading again at verse nine. It says, when those hired about the 11th hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now, when those hired first came, so we're referring to the people who are hired at the beginning of the day. Now, when those who were hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius and on receiving it, right? So this is as, this is, um, uh, just unbelievable as they're receiving the denarius on receiving it, they grumbled at the master of the house. Now, just the way that I read that and said the word grumbled tells you that that word is really important here. Yes. If you look at this Greek word. And you compare it to the, the word, the usage of this word in the, the, um, Sept. Yes. Which of course is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. This word most commonly appears in the wilderness wandering accounts. [00:38:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:38:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. And the, the primary sin of the Israelites during the wilderness wandering was grumbling against the Lord. And this grumbling against the Lord in that context is not just a general complaining, right. It's not just like a, a sort of like a, a general dissatisfaction or like murmuring. This isn't like water cooler frustration about your boss. The grumbling in the Old Testament in this context is a covenantal accusation, right. So this is tied to the, the accounts where Moses first is told to strike the rock, and he does so when the water comes out, and then second is told to speak to the rock, but he strikes it. I won't go into all the details, but the scene that's being, being displayed there is the people come, they accuse the Lord of abandoning them into the wilderness. And this scene where Moses is set up on the rock and he strikes the rock, that scene is a judicial scene. The people have filed a covenant accusation against the Lord, and in reality, it's the people who have been unfaithful. But the Lord standing in the place of the rock is the one who is struck, right? Jesus was the rock in the wilderness from which the water came. Paul says that in First Corinthians, right? So this language of grumbling in this is not just, they're not just complaining about the fact that they didn't get what they thought they were going to, they're questioning the veracity of the covenant that was made. So they're, they're still locked into this merit-based. This merit-based idea even more than it seemed at first, right? There's a logic to the idea that like, oh, if the, the master is actually paying a wage of one denarius for per hour, like there's a logic to that. But it's not just that they're saying, and this is, this explains the response of the master. It's not just that they're saying like, Hey, wait a second, like the wage rate that you're paying is not right. They're saying you have violated the terms of our covenant in the way that you have paid us. 'cause it's upon receiving it that they complain or they grumble and the master says more or less like, Hey. You agreed with me for one Denarius, I'm giving you what you've earned. I'm giving you what you agreed on. Why don't you take it and go. So the answer is not to try to justify why he is free to pay these other people more, or why he's free to pay these people a perceived less. The answer is, again, they're complaining against the covenant. He is bringing it back to the covenant saying, well, here's what the covenant relationship was. You work for the day. I give you Denarius. We're square here, we're on the same page. We've fulfilled our covenant obligations, and you've received your reward for that. So I, I think that's another thing we have to lock in here is this is not just a general idea of like unfairness that's being presented. This is not just a general idea that people are saying the master of the house is unfair. They're saying he's covenantal. Unfaithful. Right? That's a pretty big accusation.  [00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that is, thank you by the way, for completely stealing the whole tugen thing from me. Like I was just going hot to Tugen to find that reference. And now all I can do is add to it. So that is from at least one of those occasions, a number 16, and I just wanna read the verse. This is 16 six. So Moses and Aaron said to all the sons of Israel at evening, you will know that Yahweh has brought you outta the land of Egypt. And in the morning you will see the glory of Yahweh for he hears your grumblings against Yahweh. And what we are that you grumble against us. So I'm totally with you. This is not subtle. The workers first complaint here, the first workers' complaint is like theologically serious. Uh, I think that's what you're hitting us on. Like it charges the owner with injustice. Right. And as I read it, the grievance has like two layers or two parts, I would say. One is this comparative part, which is basically saying, you made us equal to them. Right? And the second be like a meritorious part, they have worked harder and in worse conditions. And that's why they say things like, it's, it's all inflammatory language, isn't it? Like the scorching heat emphasizes like the real bodily cost and their complaint. I think if we're honest, it's not irrational, but it's spiritually revealing at least because Right, they believe their greater effort, mayors greater reward and they resent that grace shown to others. So like you said, they're bringing forward a very serious grievance and it's, it's not just like, Hey, we think maybe could you give us a bonus? Right. But that is a matter of faithfulness. And in fact, like as I'm looking at this tugen here, shout out to logos Bible software. And I'm saying that that verb that we're talking about in Exodus 16 is in the imperfect tense. So this is, they kept on grumbling and it is like an an echo of Israel's murmuring in the wilderness, which I presume like Matthew certainly had intentionally used there or had that view in part casting these workers as the same types of those who relate to God through entitlement rather than gratitude. So it's like insults upon insult here, but it is to emphasize this fact that it's no small accusation, it's not subtle, it's meant to be in your face. They're coming in hot with this and they're making a big deal about it.  [00:43:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and again, I think like underscoring the covenantal nature of this is so key. And I think, you know, when we look at this, we really have to land that this is not just saying. Your wage structure is not right. 'cause and, and we gotta remember, they weren't there when the master went and made this bargain, or, you know, brought these other workers into the vineyard. They weren't there to hear what covenant or contract he did or didn't make. And as we've commented, they didn't, he didn't even make a covenant with them. He basically just said, I'm gonna put you to work and I'll pay you what's fair. I'll pay you what's right. Um, and they went, okay, you need the work and thank you. Like, I think, I think that's kind of like the, the scene here is they're standing there. They recognize they're not gonna get a wage for the day, especially these ones that he's coming in at the 11th hour, they're not gonna get a wage for the day. And as you said, these are subsistence workers. Right. These are people that if you don't get a wage, and this is the, the grounding of the Old Testament, um, the Old Testament command of, of paying at the end of the day is that if they don't get their wage, they're not gonna eat. They're not gonna have food, they're not gonna have the money they need to survive. Um, so he comes in and he basically says like. You don't have a job that's not gonna be good for you. I'll take care of you. I'll, I'll give you a job and I'll take care of you. And the ones who are complaining and grumbling, they have no line of sight to that process. That, that's right. They make a lot of assumptions about the, and this is, goes back to, um. The parable of the talents, which we haven't really talked about yet. The, the, there's a lot of assumptions about the nature of this master that the, the contracted or covenanted day laborers are making that don't turn out to be accurate. Right. They, they assume that he's working, as you've said, that he's working on this one-to-one, you know, quid pro quo. You do this, I do that kind of a, a methodology and he's actually operating on a basis of a much more. Basic, uh, grace principle. Uh, and again, even, even the principle of hiring these original workers and covenanting with them is gracious in the sense that he didn't have to hire them. Right. So, so all along the way they're, they're, it's like the epitome of looking a gift horse in the mouth.  [00:45:24] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:45:24] Tony Arsenal: They've been hired, and so yes, it is right for them to expect their, um, to expect their wage, whatever that wage might be. But they, they are misinterpreting the idea of what the wages are and how the wages are to be delivered. They're, they're applying, this is actually a lot like job's, friends, right? Their, their logic is not actually all that bad, but they have, they have missing parts of the picture that makes the logic. Apply differently in this particular situation. They think that this, this master works on a strict merit-based. You do X amount of work, you receive X amount of money. And this master is actually more functioning on this covenantal principle of, I'm gonna pay you what's right, regardless of what, what work you've done, which, what work is actually owed to you. And the master makes these, this agreement with these other workers to just say, go into the vineyard and then when the evening comes, I'll pay you. Right. Well, he intended to pay them what they needed to survive, regardless of how much work they provided. Right? So they're all, even though there's a formal contract to say these, this group works for the whole day and this group, you know, and, and they receive one day's labor, at the end of the day, he's graciously providing another day of survival for all of these people, for the work that they're, they're putting forward regardless of how much they actually contribute to his bottom line. [00:46:41] Owner Defends The Covenant [00:46:41] Jesse Schwamb: And we see that in verse 13, where the landowner gives his defense, you know, it says. He and he replied, friends, I'm doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for Denarius? Now the address, because now I'm deep in the Greek Tony. Here we go. So the address I'm seeing in, uh, again, shout out to Locus Bible software, it, this use of friend is not like the warm fellows, but like a more formal or distance term of address. It's used elsewhere in Matthew. But I think the point here is that the owner's first line of defense is this contractual point, which you're saying. I have not wronged you. He's kept his agreement precisely. No injustice has been done. And that's crucial. The owner doesn't re appreciate justice. He actually fulfills it. He obligates himself and he fulfills that obligation. And what the worker receives is exactly what was promised and exactly what is due. And so by the time he gets to verse 14 where he says, take what belongs to you, and go, I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you here. I think this is like the theological beating hide of this whole bad boy. Yeah.  [00:47:37] Jesse Schwamb: The landowner explicitly invokes his will, his sovereign freedom to do and to give as he pleases, which is exactly how God behaves. It's not a negation of justice, but this declaration of something beyond justice, it is grace. He exercises his freedom and generosity to those who had no claim, and the command, take what belongs to you and go is, is kind of like a world dismissal, like, like you were saying. Yeah. We're in the courtroom. He's like, I, I've ruled on this already. Like, bring Brian, bring your grievance. Here's my ruling. Take what you have and go. Their grumbling has revealed that they're not celebrating the kingdom. They're actually grieving it. So yeah, you know, I think original invocation of like Jonah is right on the money. It's basically like, are are you mad enough? Yeah, I'm mad enough to die. Like, how dare you give me, give me this great shade and then take it away from me. Yeah. And in some ways this is even worse because what they have been given has been that were promised to them, was given to them, and they get to retain and God says, go, or the landowner as God says, go now and take what is yours. Take what I've given to you graciously. But your point that like what supersedes that, the antecedent to all of that is still God's covenant keeping, covenant making promise, making, right? That sets the whole thing up. But I love this idea that, you know, I will choose, it's my desire, it's language of divine volition. And of course the reform theology, this single verb resonates with the entire doctrine of election. It's God's free, sovereign, and gracious will to bestow blessing without reference to merit, like praise his name.  [00:49:00] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And then we come to kind of the close of this parable, right? And this is, this really is like the punchline of the parable. Like not every punchline or not every parable has like a real specific, like punchy punchline, but when he says, am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity? Right? That or is a logical connector, right? It's he's saying like, these are the two logical options you have. Either I'm not allowed to do what I want with my belongings, which of course is a ridiculous thesis, right? He's clearly allowed to do what he wishes and they would want him to do that because what he's done is he's provided them with a job and giving, giving them the labor.  [00:49:40] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:49:40] Tony Arsenal: He says, or if I am allowed to do with what I want with my belongings. Then you must be mad at me for being generous.  [00:49:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:49:47] Tony Arsenal: Right. Those are the only options. And there's kind of a ridiculous, there's kind of, this is one of those like arguments to absurdity, right? Are you really this small and petty that you're gonna be mad at me for being generous to somebody? Right.  [00:50:00] Jonah And Begrudged Grace [00:50:00] Tony Arsenal: This, and this is, this is the Jonah effect. This is exactly what happens in Jonah, is Jonah, um, comes from this, I'm, I'm actually preaching in Jonah too here in a couple weeks. So I've been studying, um, Jonah's prayer in chapter two, and Jonah, Jonah is rescued by the whale, right? We, we think of the whale sometimes as the judgment that God sends, and there may be an element of that. But, but Jonah, Jonah views the whale as a vessel of salvation, right? He thanks the Lord for rescuing him from the deep of the ocean and from the, the bars of the earth and the mountains under the sea. And the, there's a lot of reasons textually to see not just Jonah's prayer, but in, in the actual narrative itself, that the, the whale is the way that God saves Jonah from drowning in the sea, not the way that he punishes. Right. And so he comes from this, this regenerative SVA salvation process, right? He comes outta the whale, he's been praying and praising God in the whale, and he's been thanking God for his salvation, for rescuing him from the deep. And then he gets to Nineveh and he proclaims this message, and then he goes right back to like, I knew you were gonna forgive those chumps. Right? And you can almost see God saying like, am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Am I not allowed to save all of these people and all of these cattle from destruction? Am I not allowed to do that? Or Jonah, do you begrudge my generosity with the implication of, do you begrudge the generosity that I showed you when I didn't let you sink to the bottom of the ocean and drown to death? Or do you begrudge the generosity that I showed you where the whale was a vehicle of salvation that brought you to safety rather than digesting you and killing you? Right? Right. And that, that's the same force I think that we have here at the end of this parable. He's looking at the people and, and there's an element of like. Put yourself in those shoes. It's almost, it's almost like a subtle retelling of the parable of the Unforgiven servant, right? Put yourself in the shoes of the people who needed a day's labor. Were not getting paid, were not being hired, and then all of a sudden, someone generously gives them the very survival that they need for the following day. You're gonna begrudge me. That kind of generosity. If you were that person, you certainly wouldn't do that. Then there's also the, like, you're gonna begrudge me. My generosity with the implication of like, the generosity of having hired you in the first place could have hired anybody else. Um, he's really this, it's really this rhetorical master move. And then again, then this is exactly what Jesus does. The people who are listening to him in many, many instances identify that the parable is told against them. They identify that the parable is actually a form of judgment against them. Right? I have to think that the Pharisees and the scribes, especially the Pharisees, um, and the Sadducees who only had the, only had the, um, the Pentateuch only recognized the Pentateuch. I had to think, I have to think. They're coming out of this, looking at it and going, he just called us the grumbling Israelites. Can you believe this guy?  [00:52:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:52:43] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. He did. Like, that's exactly what you are, you are the grumbling Israelites, and, and that's the force of this parable on the heels of this young man who walks away sad. I didn't look at the Greek yet, but walks away disturbed at the fact that he's not going to get the salvation he believes is, is guaranteed to him because of his love of obedience to the law. He's like, I have to do one more thing. I have to, I have to work one more work to get the salvation. I'm gonna walk away sad at that. Well, the answer is that he's begrudging the generosity of the Lord in providing salvation apart from his mar and apart from his works.  [00:53:18] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. By the way, just so like you said, Tony, we should giving it a warning so people don't like at us or send a bunch of random messages to our inbox, our form brotherhood.com. Uh, we know great fish whale. We're using that interchangeably. Everybody calm down. It's true. Just in case. Could have been a whale. Yeah,  [00:53:35] Tony Arsenal: I mean,  [00:53:36] Jesse Schwamb: one of, doesn't matter. One  [00:53:37] Tony Arsenal: of the, one of the gospels uses the word whale, so I think we're fine.  [00:53:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're, we're covering all bases there.  [00:53:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,  [00:53:42] Jesse Schwamb: I totally agree with you on that. [00:53:44] Last Will Be First [00:53:44] Jesse Schwamb: 'cause the climax of this is like something interesting I think in the orientation of the final statement. So this idea of the, the, so the first, so the last, see I already got it twisted. So the last will be first and the first last. It actually does reverse the formulation that we were just looking at in chapter 19 where Jesus says the first will be last and the last first man say that like six times best. [00:54:04] Tony Arsenal: I know it's tough.  [00:54:05] Jesse Schwamb: So it, but it doesn't complete, it does complete like this kind of a, I inclusio, I guess around the parable. The inversion I think is not merely like a social statement in light of what's unfolding in this drama, but it is so te logical. So those who approach God on the basis of this accumulated merit like you've been saying, or. Religious piety or even like, dare I say, covenant superiority or seniority. We'll find that those calculations are totally irrelevant in the kingdom economy. And those that receive the grace of God with empty hands, the gentile, the sinners, the 11th hour called if you want to, those are gonna stand fully on equal footing before this sovereign owner and the saying then resists any kind of triumphalism or celebrating over somebody else the last, or not exalted because of their lateness, but because of God's great grace, or the owner's great grace. And so I think that's the thing that we get to kind of settle in. Like you take a deep breath at the end of this because really most of us are this 11th hour call. And again, it's, it's like understanding and putting yourself in the place of the humble, the place who is the sinner, because you know, that's. Whom God has come and condescended to save in His loving kindness, like His has said, is for those people who recognize that they're exactly the kind of ones who need that. And so here we find it's much better, like you're saying, to be in the place in some ways of that younger brother who comes in repents than to be the older brother who is stubborn and find some reason, some justification to come before God with self-righteous grievances or what you believe to be self-righteous complaints in his kingdom and in his courtroom, because you do not wanna stand in that place. You know, even, even, I remember there are times like in Israel's history, when they're in the wilderness, where they come against Moses and Aaron, even for like their relationship with like foreign women, and they complain to God and God basically says, stop complaining about. My servants. You know, even there like you must be very careful, I guess. If you wanna come against God with what you think are your self or righteous grievances, you better not miss. Yeah. And so here now saying it's better for you to humble yourselves that he avenges this kind of behavior. He comes hard against those who are prideful, but instead the humble, he lifts up the humble, he comes and he rescues. Like I said, even in Jonah, what we find there is the whale. The great fish is God's formation of Jonah as a loving father who disciplines and chastises not as one who punishes. And so here too, we find some of that echo, that it's better to understand that we don't want to be among the complainers. What we want to be is among those who are willing to recognize and receive God's gracious provision for us. [00:56:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:56:34] Evil Eye And Final Sendoff [00:56:34] Tony Arsenal: And one last, one last little bit of nerdy Greek here that I think underscores this covenantal, um, covenantal aspect of this that we're talking about when he says to them, or do you begrudge my generosity? Um, if the, if the, um, video caught my perplexed look, it's, 'cause I was trying to figure out why the word I was related to this. Uh, the, the phrase here is actually, do you give me the evil eye for my generosity?  [00:57:01] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:57:01] Tony Arsenal: This is good. Good. And I think what it's getting at here is he's saying like, do you curse me?  [00:57:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:57:06] Tony Arsenal: Because of my generosity. So that does, that ties into this covenantal language. He's basically saying either I'm allowed to do what I want with what I, what it belongs to me. Or are you gonna curse me in a, probably in like a covenantal sense, are you gonna call down the covenantal curses because I was generous to somebody else.  [00:57:23] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:57:23] Tony Arsenal: And it's, it's in this way. That so is not, it's not, therefore it's a demonstrative. So it's in this way, in, in this way where those who are, um, those who receive God's generosity, recognize it. Um, and those who fail to recognize God's generosity are. Are dismissed because of it. It's in that way that the last will be first, right? Yes. The people who, who are sold out to the generosity of God and they trust him, and they, they, yes, they come and they work, right? But the, the response of a day laborer at the 11th hour when someone comes and says, look, I've still got work to do it. It's one of overjoyed response. It's not, it's not thinking they're gonna earn a lot of money. It's not thinking they're gonna, they just get to work and they're thankful and they trust that person. Uh, and, and that's what we see is salvation in the Christian faith is we turn to Christ. We recognize his generosity. We trust that he's going to, he's gonna do what's right. He's gonna take care of us. And in that way, the last will be first, those who are, are late to the party. Those who not necessarily like this isn't necessarily a parable with saying like. You know, like the people who have deathbed conversions are somehow the, the, the first, um, it, it's, it's not temporal in the sort of idea of like those who've been saved for the longest are represented by the day laborers and those who are sort of new converts are represented by the 11th hour people. It's saying those who are, are, um, those who abandoned themselves to the mercy and generosity of God, those people will be first in the kingdom of God. And those people who are so like, tied to and connected to and, and, um, sort of locked into this idea of covenant merit as the primary EE economy of how God operates, um, those people will be last. I'm not entirely sure, you know, like, this is still all operating within the Kingdom of Heaven, within this is what the kingdom of heaven on earth appears like. Um, so I think we, you know, I don't think we're gonna do another episode. I think we, we probably have covered this sufficiently, but it'd be interesting to sort of tease out like, what does that mean for the people who are in God's kingdom? And let's just say it like, sorry, perform Baptist, like in God's kingdom, um, who are not. Apparently not actually sold out to the grace of God here. Um, what does it mean for those people who are in God's kingdom and are now the last? Are they the last, the last in terms of the last who will still be saved? Are these the ones Paul talks about who are saved as though through fire? Or, or is there something else going on here? Um, I would love to hear people sort of theorize and think about that as they've listened to this. And Jesse, how could they do that if they wanted to talk to us about this little question I've dropped? [01:00:01] Jesse Schwamb: Man, that was like so smooth. So smooth. Yeah. Listen, people you already know, do I, I know I don't need to say it, but like I'm contractually ally by way of the podcast obligated to tell you. That there's a little corner of the internet in this messaging app that's called Telegram, where we all hang out. And by all of us, I mean all of us, except for you who's listening right now, that's not in it. Why are you not in it? So here are the instructions on how to find your way there. Go to your browser, type in t.me back slash reform brotherhood t me Back slash reform Brotherhood Do. Link will take you to that corner of the world. And you can see we have a bunch of channels set up where people are conversing from everything to just general topics, to the episode, to prayer requests, to food reviews, to just good plain Christian reform, theological fun. I said, it's just fun. So come hang out, go to t.me/reform brotherhood.  [01:00:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And for those of you who are sick of us promoting the Telegram channel, I'll just ask you, are we not allowed to do what we choose with our airtime or do you begrudge us our free podcast? [01:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Listen, do you have an evil eye? And, and do you said that so well, Tony. I love a good Jewish idiom. Like for instance, I love that when we read of God being long suffering, the text literally says he's long nosed.  [01:01:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [01:01:14] Jesse Schwamb: And here this idea of the evil eye is like this Jewish idiom, connoting like envy or stinginess or like, uh, miserliness or parsimonious. So because I, I just happen to look that up by Proverbs 28 22 says, A man with an evil eye hurries after wealth and does not know that want will come upon him. That's so good. Yeah. So don't, don't have the evil eye. Come hang out, come hang out with us.  [01:01:39] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I'm glad to be back. I feel like, uh, I'm back in the saddle or Yeah, you are. I dunno. Back, back in, I dunno. In the field. I dunno what the right analogy is.  [01:01:48] Jesse Schwamb: Backstreet's back.  [01:01:49] Tony Arsenal: I was backstreet's back. Yeah, I, I was trying to figure out whether I was gonna go with a Backstreet back joke or a slim shady joke. Um, in my mind they sort of merged together, like if I had good technical audio skills, I might make a sweet mashup of some really awesome out of date, like white boy semi hip hop or something like that. Uh, but I'm not gonna do that 'cause. If anything is worse than I think so. Well, slim Shady, it's me trying to synthesize slim Shady, so I'm not gonna do that. Uh, but I'm glad to be back and it is the real slim shady. I'm the real slim shady something, something. Um, but yeah, it's gonna be great. We're gonna keep going in the parables. We don't know how long it's gonna take. Uh, we didn't even know we were gonna do this parable tonight. We sat down let's, we were like, what are we talking about tonight? We're like, let's just keep going in the parables. So we're gonna keep at it. So stick with us. Um, pick up a good commentary, read ahead, pick up a good, you know, a good Bible translation and follow along with us. Uh, and join us in the telegram chat so we can kind of keep talking about this and having these conversations long after the episode ends.  [01:02:50] Jesse Schwamb: You got it. Well, listen, everybody's been hearing me say it, but man, are they gonna be glad to hear you say it? Honor everyone.  [01:02:56] Tony Arsenal: Love the brotherhood. 

In this compelling solo episode, Jesse Schwamb unpacks one of Scripture's most famous—and misunderstood—passages: Jesus' confrontation with the Pharisees and Herodians over paying taxes to Caesar. Far from being a simple political soundbite, Matthew 22:15-22 reveals Jesus' brilliant wisdom in dismantling false dilemmas and redirecting our focus to identity rather than ideology. Through careful exegesis, Jesse demonstrates how Christ's response cuts through political posturing to address the deeper question: Whose image do we bear? This episode serves as both a masterclass in biblical interpretation and a timely reminder that our ultimate allegiance belongs not to any earthly authority, but to the God whose image we carry. Perfect preparation for the podcast's upcoming journey through the parables of Jesus. Key Takeaways Jesus Cannot Be Cornered: The Pharisees and Herodians crafted what seemed like an inescapable trap, but Jesus transcends false dilemmas by reframing the question entirely, demonstrating His divine wisdom and authority. The Imago Dei Is Central: By asking "Whose image is this?" about the coin, Jesus points to the deeper question: Whose image is on you? We bear God's image, making our primary obligation to Him, not Caesar. Civil Authority Is Real but Bounded: Jesus affirms legitimate temporal authority ("render to Caesar") while establishing that all such authority is derivative and limited by God's ultimate sovereignty. Hypocrisy Is Exposed by Action: The Pharisees' immediate production of a Roman coin revealed they were already participants in the system they questioned, undermining their supposed concern for Jewish law. Amazement ≠ Transformation: The opponents "marveled" and left, demonstrating that intellectual defeat or astonishment at Jesus' teaching is not equivalent to spiritual conversion or surrender. Identity Precedes Politics: Before asking what we owe the government, we must ask what we owe God—the answer being ourselves, as those created in His image. The Breath of Divine Life: Our creation bears special intimacy—God breathed life into humanity, making us doubly unique as both image-bearers and recipients of His divine breath, foreshadowing spiritual regeneration. In-Depth Analysis The Imago Dei Is Central Jesus' response to the tax question brilliantly redirects attention from political obligation to theological identity. When He asks "Whose image is this?" about the denarius, He's employing the Greek word eikon—the same term used in the Septuagint translation of Genesis 1:27 for humanity being made in God's image. This isn't coincidental wordplay; it's deliberate theological teaching. The profound truth here is that while Caesar's image on a coin establishes his claim to that piece of metal, God's image stamped on humanity establishes His total claim on us. We are not our own; we were bought with a price far greater than any taxation. The coin metaphor works because it's a physical representation of ownership and authority—but our bodies and souls are the true "coinage" that belongs to God. This reframes every political question as ultimately subordinate to our identity as image-bearers, reminding us that our primary citizenship, allegiance, and obligation is heavenly, not earthly. Civil Authority Is Real but Bounded Jesus' statement "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" has often been misinterpreted as establishing a complete separation between sacred and secular realms. However, Reformed theology—particularly Calvin's interpretation—understands this passage as establishing legitimate but limited civil authority within God's sovereignty. Caesar's authority is real and should be respected; Christians are called to submit to governing authorities as Paul argues in Romans 13. However, this authority is derivative, not ultimate. Caesar operates within a sphere that God ordains and limits. There is no zone of existence that belongs exclusively to Caesar, outside God's jurisdiction. The state has legitimate claims on our obedience, our taxes, and our civic participation—but never on our worship, our ultimate allegiance, or our conscience when it contradicts God's law. This creates a framework for Christian citizenship that takes earthly government seriously while never granting it the totalizing authority that belongs to God alone. Amazement ≠ Transformation The conclusion of this encounter is sobering: the Pharisees and Herodians were "amazed" but unchanged. They marveled at Jesus' wisdom, were intellectually outmaneuvered, and had nothing more to say—yet they walked away to plot His crucifixion. This demonstrates a crucial truth for evangelism and apologetics: winning an argument is not the same as winning a soul. Intellectual defeat can coexist with spiritual hardness. Someone can acknowledge the brilliance of Jesus' teaching, be unable to counter His logic, and still refuse to surrender their life to Him. This reminds us that conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit, not merely the result of superior argumentation. Our task is faithful witness and clarity in presenting truth, but we must pray for the Spirit to do what only He can do—soften hearts, open eyes, and bring dead souls to life. Astonishment at Jesus must give way to submission to Jesus. Memorable Quotes "You can never corner Jesus. Of course, you can never catch him off guard. And while those seem like very just trite and straightforward explanations of who he is and what his character is like as the son of God, we should not go away from them too quickly because what we find here is the wisdom and the brilliance of God in providing teaching to cut to the hearts of what is actually in the question." "Caesar can have his coin, but he cannot have you. Not in any ultimate sense. You and I, loved ones, we belong to God." "Being out argued is not the same as being transformed. You can leave someone with nothing to say and still not reach the heart." Full Episode Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the trap. If Jesus says yes, pay the tax, he completely alienates the crowd of Jewish pilgrims who are beginning to believe that he might be the Messiah who will liberate Israel from Rome if he says. No, do not pay it. He could obviously be reported to the Roman authorities as a seditious rebel. Either answer loses. There's really no good way out of this. At least on the face. Either answer costs him something, his popularity or his freedom, and this is what we call a false dilemma. The Pharisees think that they've got him cornered. But here's the thing, loved ones they haven't. You can never corner Jesus. Of course, you can never catch him off guard. And while those seem like very just trite and straightforward explanations of who he is and what his character is like as the son of God, we should not. Go away from them too quickly because what we find here is the wisdom and the brilliance of God in providing teaching to cut to the hearts of what is actually in the question. And Jesus doesn't play this game. Welcome to episode 487 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for all those with the Imago Day. Hey, brothers and sisters, so let's talk taxes. Now you should know that the Reform Brotherhood is not that kind of podcast, but I suspect that you had one of two responses when you heard that topic. Either it piqued your interest or you thought, I'm just totally gonna skip this episode, and I get that. That's a polarizing topic. It's in part why I said it at the top, but I want us to chat a little bit today about a passage of the scripture where Jesus himself brings up taxes, but not in that way. In fact, he demonstrates some exceptional teaching, showing the wisdom of God in a very difficult and complex circumstance. And so we're gonna spend just a little bit of time hanging out in Matthew 22.  [00:02:17] Why Matthew 22 [00:02:17] Jesse Schwamb: Now, why are we doing this? Why this on this episode? Well, we're about to continue on the podcast, our inexorable march through all of the parables of Jesus as we go into the summer months. It's parable, summer loved ones, which I realize sounds like a horrible name for like a low budget drama. But in this case, Tony and I are about to reem embark or pick up our journey in the parables of Jesus. And what we find in Matthew 22 is this little exchange. It happens. And it actually is in the midst of a bunch of parables that are happening. It's in some ways a response to the parables that Jesus is bringing forward. And also, I just love this passage so much, and since we're doing one more solo episode, before we, we reunite and the band comes back together and we start talking about parables. I thought this is a great way for us to, again, consider the teachings of Jesus. In light of everything that he's saying and teaching in these really lovely stories. And so we find ourselves to think right in Matthew 22, which is a great place to be. So come hang out with me there. Grab a Bible, go stop your car right now and pull up on your phone the Matthew 22 so you can read along with me because this is something fantastic. It's one of the most famous passages actually in the gospels. And also at the same time, it's one of the most misused texts in the history of political theology. Because people on every side of almost every date about this topic, especially taxes since they're mentioned here, have reached for this passage, like it's some kind of Swiss Army knife. So I think the best thing that we can do. Our conversation right now is, let's slow down a little bit. Let's chill out. Let's get easy. Let's read it carefully and figure out what Jesus was actually doing here because it is, I promise you, far more interesting than just like a soundbite about taxes and the way that I beta you. At the top of this episode by saying, let's talk about taxes. [00:04:09] Setting the Scene [00:04:09] Jesse Schwamb: Now, before we get to this particular passage, here's a bit of scene setting, which I think is really important before we get to verse 15, which is where we're gonna pick up. Jesus has entered Jerusalem in the triumphal procession. He's cleansed the temple. He's cursed a fig tree, and he delivered three withering parables aimed directly at the religious establishment. We've got the parable of the two sons. The parable of the Wicked Tenants, the parable of the wedding banquet, which by the way, we're gonna get to all those bad boys. They will all have their own episodes because they're all brilliant and exceptional in each their own way, and they deserve for us to sit in them a little bit. But by the time we reach chapter 22, verse 15, I think at this point the Pharisees have heard enough. They are not stoked about the fact that Jesus is coming after them and coming in hot. And so the response is, let's set a trap. Let's now go back on the offensive. Let's give Jesus a test in front of everybody. So he's gonna be pinned down with something very difficult to explain or to answer. And so that's exactly where we find Matthew writing in 22 verse 15.  [00:05:15] Reading the Passage [00:05:15] Jesse Schwamb: Here's where we pick it up. Matthew writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Then the Pharisees went and took counsel together about how they might trap Jesus in what he said, and they sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians saying, teacher, we know that you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth and deferred a no one for you are not partial to any. Therefore, tell us what do you think? Is it lawful to give a tax to Caesar or not? But Jesus knowing their wickedness said, why are you testing me? You hypocrites, show me the coin used for the tax. And they brought him a denarius and he said to them, whose likeness in inscription is this? They said to him, Caesar's. Then he said to them, therefore rendered Caesar, the things that are Caesar's and to God, the things that are god's. And hearing this, they marveled and leaving him, they went away. What an incredible passage. I love this so much in part because we're about to see here this wisdom in the teaching of God through Jesus. It's both spicy. It comes with almost like a clenched fist. It strikes back, but it gets to the root of something that wasn't even part of the original question and unentangle the trap to such a degree that the end result is that. Everybody is left speechless and they just have to walk away.  [00:06:41] Enemies Unite [00:06:41] Jesse Schwamb: And it starts with this idea that the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. Matthew actually uses this interesting word here, this idea of they took counsel together. It's a formal deliberate scheme. In other words, they definitely talked about this. It's premeditated, it's not impulsive. It's a confrontation with design. And the Pharisees are doing opposition research. They want to. Trap him, tangle him up. The Greek is to snare or to trap in a net. So they're hunting. They're trying to snipe Jesus, and they're going to send in this least likely combination of collaborators, collaborators, to do this whole thing. It's worth noting here. These groups that we have in the passage, the Pharisees and the Herodians, these guys were natural enemies. The Pharisees were Jewish priests or purists who despised Roman rule, and the Herodians were political pragmatists who basically owed their power to Rome. And so these guys, you can imagine, they agreed on almost nothing except that Jesus needed to be stopped. And when your enemies join forces to come after you. I guess you know, you've been effective. We might think about the own, own, our own times in which we live and the kind of polarized way our societies tend to be bending and tilting right now. And to think what would it take for everybody to come together, unite on common hatred or disagreement about some kind of third element or party? What would it take for that to happen? And so here, there is. The sense in which both the Pharisees and the pros for all of their dislike toward each other, for all their philosophical and religious disagreements, for all of their political conniving against each other, they are completely united in this purpose. And they easily come together to say, Jesus, we must deal with, and it requires all of us, let us come together and reason against him finding a way that we can consolidate our effort and power to such a degree that we leverage one another to entrap him. So there's something here where I think they're demonstrating what the Psalms say that God, when the nation's rage against God, he laughs. He holds 'em in derision. And here's a perfect example of that. In a microcosmic kind of way, we find these two groups who really should never be with one another, finding common ground and unity to try to defeat. Jesus.  [00:08:56] Flattery as a Trap [00:08:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this delegation arrives and here is their approach to Jesus. They say, teacher, we know that you are true and you teach the way of God truthfully, and you don't care about anyone's opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances. This is some kind of magnificent flattery, and it actually, it's almost entirely true, which just makes this so ironic. There's a confession among the Herodians and the Pharisees, even as I tried to undermine Jesus, you know, that's what makes this so dangerous. They say you don't care about anyone's opinion. You're not swayed by appearances. They're essentially saying you can't be pressured. You'll answer honestly no matter what. And in saying so, they're trying to pressure Jesus, of course, into answering honestly. But it's like a rhetorical judo move. The compliment is the trap spring mechanism. Calvin, in this passage, likes to know that they address Jesus as teacher to feign respect while concealing this animosity, this ho hostility that they have towards him. They want him to be relaxed. Flattered off guard as if it's possible to take the son of God off guard, but notice what they're actually confessing in that flattery. Jesus is truthful. He teaches God's way accurately. He's not a respecter of persons. Every word they speak in false praise is true testimony about who he is, which makes their hypocrisy all the more damning. And this is the thing, for as much as anybody wants to try to blaspheme Jesus for as much as anybody wants to come at him with one particularly. Facet of his character. For instance, he's a good teacher or he seems to teach peace and love and truth and that, and that's it. They compliment him while at the same time confessing themselves short of the true confession of who he is. And so it's ironic to me that these guys. Who in their hearts are holding all of this malice toward Jesus. Say, well, you're not a respecter of persons because you th see things as they are and not merely as they appear to be, while all the time thinking that they're truthfully concealing the fact that they hate him and yet are flattering them with his, flattering him with their tongues. The absurdity of this is absolutely insane. And so I think if you're in this moment, you have to be appreciating. This sense of what is building here? How is Jesus going to respond? The trap has been set. They've tried to flatter him, and of course he's not buying it. But they start with this question. All of that's a set up to say here is like the real punchline. Tell us then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?  [00:11:36] The False Dilemma [00:11:36] Jesse Schwamb: Now, if you're like me, quite honestly, you might wish that Jesus answered this question differently. This is the trap, the trap. Snapshots on this single question or so they think, I mean, I, I truly believe they think they're being really smart here, that they've come to terms with maybe lots of ideas. I don't know what they did. Whatever the equivalent of using chat GPT was, they said, how can we entrap Jesus? They all got together. They devised a plan. I'm sure they had. Some kind of whiteboard where they're brainstorming ideas and some came up and said, no, that's not gonna work. And others came. I imagine they settled on this because they thought there was no way outta this. And in some ways it's actually a really brilliantly engineered dilemma. The tax in question here is the kenzos. This was the Roman poll tax. A denarius per head paid directly to Rome, and it was incredibly and deeply controversial. Some Jews viewed paying it as completely an act of collaboration with an occupying pagan power, and the zealots called it outright sin, and the HEROs thought it was perfectly fine. So here's the trap. If Jesus says yes, pay the tax, he completely alienates the crowd of Jewish pilgrims who are beginning to believe that he might be the Messiah who will liberate Israel from Rome if he says. No, do not pay it. He could obviously be reported to the Roman authorities as a seditious rebel. Either answer loses. There's really no good way out of this. At least on the face. Either answer costs him something, his popularity or his freedom, and this is what we call a false dilemma. The Pharisees think that they've got him cornered. But here's the thing, loved ones they haven't. You can never corner Jesus. Of course, you can never catch him off guard. And while those seem like very just trite and straightforward explanations of who he is and what his character is like as the son of God, we should not. Go away from them too quickly because what we find here is the wisdom and the brilliance of God in providing teaching to cut to the hearts of what is actually in the question. And Jesus doesn't play this game.  [00:13:40] Coin and Hypocrisy [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus aware of the malice says, why? Put me to the test. You hypocrites, show me the coin for the tax. He doesn't even pretend to take the question at face value. He immediately identifies what's happening. This is a test and you all are hypocrites. Now, for me, I think if you are in the seats or standing in the shoes or the sandals, I suppose, of the Herodians or the Pharisees. I would be like, if I were on the side, I would be like, pull up, pull up, get out, get out. He's onto us just just with Jesus directly coming at them and labeling them as hypocrites. I think that itself undoes all of this. They've been exposed from the very beginning and Jesus doesn't mess around. It's like him coming into the temple to cleanse the temple, and it's as if in his left hand, he has mercy in his right hand. He has that cord that whip. And the word that Matthew uses here for hypocrites is one that Jesus deploys with like surgical precision throughout his this gospel. A hypocrite is someone performing virtue they do not possess. And right away he identifies it. These men are performing concern for Jewish law while actually serving their own political agenda. And I love that the son of God in power does not put up with that at all. And then, and I think this is. Absolutely delightful. Jesus asked them for a coin of all the things he could have said or done. Here's where there is like a little bit of a kind of a parable feel to this. He asked for the physical object, the thing that they're talking about. He asks, and interestingly, he doesn't have one. He's the guest of Pilgrim, the one without a Roman Denarius in his pocket. But, and here's what's interesting. Loved ones, they produce one immediately for him, which means the people who are asking whether it's lawful to use Roman currency are already using Roman currency. Jesus hasn't even answered yet, and hypocrisy is already self-evident. I think that's a considerable fact. The, the instance that they're able to produce the coin promptly, I don't think is a minor detail. It implicates them. They're already participants in the Roman economic system, which. I would say it's not necessarily a bad thing. Their question about whether it's lawful to pay taxes to Caesar is somewhat undermined though by the fact that they're carrying Caesar's money in the temple precincts. In other words, the whole thing just smells a setup. And even Jesus asking for the coin is showing them and others around them that not is he onto them. Not only does he see through them, but he is undermining the complete argument that they're making, showing that the question that they need to have answered is actually not about taxes at all. It's about something much deeper he's about to answer or bring forward the question, rather, whose image is on you. [00:16:29] Whose Image [00:16:29] Jesse Schwamb: And he starts by holding up the coin and saying, whose image is on this? So they bring him a denarius and Jesus says to them, whose likeness and inscription. Is this now the denarius of Tiberius Caesar bore his portrait in the inscription. The inscription, generally historians say, said something like Tiberius Caesar, son of the Divine Augustus, and it was a claim of divinity stamped into everyday commerce. This is why so much of the Jews found it so offensive to participate because it felt as if in every transaction you were affirming in some way the divine authority of Caesar. It was a claim that was stamped on the coin and therefore represented in every kind of transaction that took place throughout the lamb. Every time a Roman coin changed hands, Rome's imperial theology was in some ways quietly proclaimed, and Jesus holds it up and he asks this obvious question. Whose face is on this thing, and the Greek word for likeness here, whose likeness is, this is the word for image. This is the word the SubT uses in Genesis one. When God makes humanity in his image, in the Imago day, Jesus is about to build an argument that depends on this resonance, whether his questioners hear it or not. Whose image is on the coin and whose image is on you. Those are two very different questions with two very different answers. And of course, they lead to this incredibly famous reply, one that's known by most people, but I think not understood by many. So they said, Caesar's Caesar's image is on this coin.  [00:18:12] Render to God [00:18:12] Jesse Schwamb: So Jesus says to them, therefore. Render to Caesar, the things that are Caesars and to God, the things that are God. I think of almost all the places in the scriptures. This might be Jesus at his most dazzling. I say that partly. Subjectively, because I'm captivated by this whole encounter. I'm captivated and drawn in by the son of God and his teaching here. I'm captivated by his ability to see through what's happening here, and I'm captivated by the truth that he delivers. But I think I'm not alone because objectively, when we get to the end of this, we find everybody else marveling. Notice that Jesus doesn't choose between the two horns of this dilemma. He reframes the entire question. He blows up the entire premise because even here, the choice of language is so incredible. The word render means to give back what is owed, to return, what belongs to someone. Sometimes we hear this as give, give to Caesars. What is Caesars? Just give it to him. This seems like a, a secular question you're asking me. So keep this secular nonsense out of what is this sacred life? But instead it's not just give it's give back, render as in this was already his to begin with. So give Caesar back. What has Caesar's image on it? The coin bears his image. The coin belongs to his realm, fine. But when that, but then comes this, this second half, this glorious truth, that's far better, and this is where the weight falls. Give to God, what has God's image on it. And what of course, bears the image of God, you and I, every human being made in the mago de bears the divine image. Caesar can have his coin, but he cannot have you. Not in any ultimate sense. You and I loved ones. We belong to God. And of course, from a reform perspective, this is the bedrock of what we mean when we speak of the Lordship of Christ over all of life. There's no zone of existence that is only Caesar's. Caesar operates within a sphere that God ordains and limits. The state has legitimate authority. Paul's gonna argue that in Romans 13, but the authority is derivative. It's not ultimate Caesar's domain is real, but bounded God's domain is total and unbounded. And so that's why. Calvin insists that Jesus never divides life neatly into sacred and secular. Rather, he is establishing that all of life is lived before God, and within that totality, there are legitimate temporal authorities to whom we owe appropriate submission. The coin goes to Caesar, but the person. The image bearer of God is owed entirely to the Lord.  [00:20:50] Imago Dei and New Life [00:20:50] Jesse Schwamb: I was thinking, again, reading through Genesis, just how beautiful the CR creation narrative is when it comes to mankind, that God is ex ne hill speaking things into existence. He's showing his great command over all things. The spirit hovering over the waters from the beginning. And here's God in this Trinitarian act, bringing into the existence, all the things that you and I know, all the things which are familiar to us that we still marvel at, but are part and parcel peace wise of the world in which we live. And I sometimes forget that when it comes to that day, when God creates man, that he forms him and then he takes a breath and he breathes. The specialty of that type of creation that you and I are derivative and contingent beings, but we're way separate than all of creation because God has breathed his very breath of life into us. And in that way, it's not just that he set us up and said, let me design mankind to be like me, which he does. Let us make mankind in our own image that Trinity says in the scriptures, but also that consummation of life. Comes from the very breadth of God himself. And in that way we find that human beings are doubly special. I would say that one, that God has formed us to be like him to exhibit many of his qualities, but two, that life itself didn't come just from merely speaking, but there's an intimacy. More or less loved ones. He put his lips on ours and breathed into us so that we might be alive. And of course, the scripture itself tells us that the second life, the abundant life, salvation itself is very much like that. In the same way, Jesus didn't come to make bad people good. It came to make dead people alive. And so we need that breath of life again. And when we are surrendered to him, when he comes and arrests our hearts, when he does that incredible surgery of cutting us and removing that heart of stone and replacing it, one with flesh, we are made alive in Christ so that we gain more in Jesus than what we lost in Adam. [00:22:50] Amazed Not Changed [00:22:50] Jesse Schwamb: So what is everybody's response when Jesus explains all of this? Well, I love what the scripture says when they heard it. They marveled and they left him and went away. They marveled the Greek here is, is the word actually for enthusiasm. They were amazed and astonished. It's not actually polite appreciation. This is like draw drop of people who came to spring a trap and watched it spring BRAC on them. There was no follow up question. I love this, don't you? That this is so complete, so succinct, so confronting, so condemning, so damning that they had nothing, they, they left. Imagine maybe they looked at each other with that look of like, does anybody else have anything else they wanna say? 'cause if not, I just want to get outta here right now and notice what Matthew doesn't say. He doesn't say that they repented, he doesn't say that they believed they were astonished. And they left. They walked away. And this is one of those sobering realities of the gospels. Jesus could silence his opponents without converting them. Intellectual defeat is not the same thing as spiritual surrender. The Pharisees went away to a pla to a. Construct a plan essentially of crucifixion of how to kill him. And being out argued is not the same as being transformed. I think for us in evangelism and apologetics, it's a good reminder that winning the argument is not the goal. Clarity is a gift and faithful witness matters, but conversion is the work of the spirit. You can leave someone with nothing to say and still not reach the heart, and this should move us to pray accordingly. So I'm amazed by this teaching because it draws us back to this understanding that what the Pharisees meant to use for entrapment to in the temporal space. To divide Jesus, to make him basically say something that he did not want to say, to put him in a place he did not want to be. Instead, he uses the convey the greatest message of all, and that is we are God's children. And ironically, the ones who are professing to be God's children had missed the point altogether because what they really needed to ask was, whose image is on you? And as a result of that, what ought you to render that is to give back to God, and that is ourselves.  [00:25:00] Takeaways and Application [00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: So here's some things I would say that we can take away from Matthew 22. A few things I think worth holding onto as you and I go about our weeks first, Jesus can't be cornered. And I, I understand that that's like obvious to say, but don't you love that about the God man? Like every intent to trap him. In this chapter and throughout the gospels now and forevermore results in his opponents looking worse than when they started. And this is how we know that we can trust Jesus, that we can trust his power, that he is for us, that his enemies will ultimately be subdued, that they will be humiliated and made low, that he is the one who cannot be caught in his words because his words are truth. I love that the scripture just tells us the truth about reality, and so we come back to it time and time again because we find it both. Warm, comfortable blankets in which we might cuddle up as it were and find ourselves comforted by God. But also it does have a sharp edge that like a knife cuts against us sometimes to remind us that we serve a holy God and that we are sinful people. It never shrinks away from the truth when that hard edge of the law must be brandished against us, and it also at the same time, never ceases to apply the bomb of the gospel to our lives where we need healing and restoration and comfort. Here's the second thing in my mind, this question, this big question, is it lawful? And what a question by the way, right? Like, you know, you could couch this in lots of different ways. Should we pay taxes? That's kind of how we think about it. But this idea of like, no, no, no. Is it lawful? Which law are we talking about? The law of God or the law of the land Even that is left for this kind of subjective reasoning to entrap. This was a question though about politics. And Jesus answered with a question about identity. I love that. Whose image is this? That is always the deeper question in my mind. And before you ask what you owe the government, we ought to ask what do we owe God? And remember that you yourself are what you owe him because you bear his image. So we start from this place where we don't get it twisted like we do in Romans one, when we're outside of God. That is, we don't wanna change the truth of God for Allah here. We need to remember that Presuppositional, all that we are, all that we have, all that we've been given, all of this is God's. And so in that contingent sense, we are merely pouring back to him that which is already due, his name and his praise. And so that's the place where we start. Third, I think there is a legitimate but bounded role for civil authority in Christian understanding of the world. That's something Tony and I have talked about before. You can go back into the Reform Brotherhood catalog, which by the way exists in reform brotherhood.com. You can find all of the 400 deficits back there. There's a search function, so you can just type in a word and at this point I'm guaranteed some episode will come up. We've talked about this before. How we're not theocrats, we're we're pilgrims. Who hold our earthly citizenship loosely and our heavenly citizenship with everything that we've got. So there is a role in our land for civil authority. Paul, again will argue this very cogently in Romans 13. At the same time, we don't wanna get it twisted. We don't want to have too much focus on that. And too little focus on the fact that our heavenly citizenship is what truly defines us because of who we are. And finally. Amazement is not enough. The Pharisees were amazed and walked away unchanged. We can't just be impressed by Jesus. We must be His. And to remind you, even I think as we engage in the parables that are ahead of us and the teaching that is behind us here in this episode, that it's not just to marvel and say, wow, isn't Jesus. Good because he is, and he is really great with his teaching. He's really great at perceiving all of this. But more than that, he's Lord and Savior of all. He's guiding us not into just like better rhetoric and how to defeat like Pulic argumentation. He's drawing us into the very heart of God, into love for him and for service for one another. And it starts with who we are and how much of our society right now. Has gotten all of this confused such that a lot of our problems is because we do not realize who we are. We are trying to change who we are, change the rules of who God has made us to be, and in this way we shipwreck our lives. And so Jesus calls us back with this simple question, whose image is this? And in that question, our loved ones, I would encourage you all to meditate, to metabolize it, to set yourselves to it. Because the task of answering that question is the task of understanding who God is and who we are in light of who God is. So there you go. Uh, just a little bit of teaching from Jesus that I think is so helpful for us, especially as we move into more parables that he's about to expand. As we go through, I don't know how many that we have left, but there's a lot of 'em, so you're gonna want to continue to hang out with us, I think, because we're gonna go through these, talk about them, process them together, pull in some exegetical chops at the same time, make sure that we're trying to apply these things, because that's the whole point here. There's so much here. I think that could be said. But I'm gonna leave the application to you. So take your time meditating and thinking through this lovely teaching.  [00:30:08] Join the Community [00:30:08] Jesse Schwamb: If you wanna come hang out and do some of this together, which, why would you not wanna do that? We are super fun people. That's what everybody says. Come and join us in the Telegram chat. You've heard me say before, telegram is just a messaging app, and we have a small corner of that app that's a private group of listeners from all around the world who are just hanging out together. We're talking about the episodes, we're talking about life together. We're sharing prayer requests. We're. Tasting things and recording videos of how delicious or not those things are. So if you're curious now about how you can join, it's super easy. Just go to any browser and type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood. One more time. Everybody in the back. It's t. It's in telegram.me back slash reform brotherhood and then you'll find a link which will take you right to the place where we are all conversing together.  [00:31:00] Closing Blessing [00:31:00] Jesse Schwamb: So that's it on this episode. Come hang out. We're about to jump back into the parables. The band will be back together. It's everything that you wanted and more and, and I hope that you'll come and hang out again. But until you do, you should definitely honor everyone and love the brotherhood. 

In this deeply personal and theologically rich episode, Jesse welcomes his wife Jenn to discuss suffering, steadfastness, and God's sovereign purposes in pain. Jenn shares her ongoing journey with endometriosis—a chronic illness that has led to multiple surgeries, emergency procedures, and ongoing medical challenges. Through candid conversation, they explore how suffering is never condemnation for believers but rather a refining tool in God's hands. This episode moves beyond abstract theological discussion to demonstrate how Reformed doctrine meets real life, offering profound encouragement for anyone walking through prolonged trials. Jenn's testimony reveals how moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset transforms suffering into an opportunity to comfort others and glorify God, even when answers remain unclear. Key Takeaways Suffering is governed by God's sovereign providence, not random chance - While endometriosis and its complications might appear as medical "bad luck," believers understand that God ordains our circumstances for our sanctification and His glory. God uses suffering to move us from victims to stewards - The transformation from asking "why me?" to "how can I serve others through this?" represents spiritual maturity and reflects God's comfort given to us so we might comfort others (2 Corinthians 1:3-4). Theology must work in ordinary life or it doesn't work at all - Abstract doctrinal knowledge means nothing if it cannot sustain us through hospital stays, chronic pain, and medical setbacks. God never promised to remove suffering, but to be present in it - The Christian life is not characterized by the absence of hardship but by God's sustaining presence through trials, enabling endurance we cannot manufacture ourselves. Honest lament is biblical and appropriate - Following David's example in the Psalms, believers can cry out to God with raw questions about suffering without fear of condemnation. Suffering creates unique opportunities for gospel witness - Non-believing friends and coworkers notice supernatural peace in the midst of trials, opening doors for conversations about the hope we have in Christ. Accepting our circumstances from God enables us to ask Him to use them - Surrender precedes service; once we accept our suffering as from God's hand, we can pray for Him to redeem it for His purposes and others' good. Key Takeaways Moving From Victim to Steward One of the most transformative insights Jenn shares is the concept of moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset in suffering. This shift doesn't minimize the reality or severity of pain—Jenn's experience with emergency surgeries, a temporary colostomy, and now a nephrostomy tube is genuinely difficult. Rather, this perspective acknowledges that God can be trusted even when circumstances feel overwhelming. The concept of stewardship typically applies to blessings—time, talents, resources—but Jenn extends it to suffering itself. If we truly believe Romans 8:28, that all things work together for good for those who love God, then even our most painful experiences become something to steward faithfully. This means asking God not just "why?" but "how can you use this?" It means looking for opportunities to comfort others with the comfort we've received from God (2 Corinthians 1:4). Jenn's ability to help others facing colostomies or endometriosis demonstrates this stewardship in action—her suffering became preparation for ministry to others facing similar trials. The Sovereignty of God Anchors Us in Suffering Throughout the conversation, Jenn repeatedly returns to God's character and sovereignty as the foundation for enduring prolonged suffering. When doctors told Jesse that only two resections out of thousands had failed—and his wife's was one of them—the natural response would be to feel victimized by terrible odds. Instead, understanding God's sovereignty reframes even statistical anomalies as part of His purposeful plan. This doesn't mean suffering is easy or that pain doesn't hurt, but it does mean suffering is never meaningless or outside God's control. Jenn's starting point in processing each new medical challenge is not her emotions or even her physical pain, but God's trustworthy character. This theological foundation—that God is good, sovereign, and has purposes we cannot always see—functions as a filter through which every diagnosis, setback, and difficult day must pass. Without this anchor, suffering becomes unbearable randomness. With it, suffering becomes a crucible for sanctification, an opportunity to experience God's sustaining grace, and a platform for displaying His glory to a watching world. Suffering Creates Gospel Opportunities One of the unexpected fruits of Jenn's journey with chronic illness has been the opening of conversations about faith with non-believing friends and coworkers. When people observe someone handling devastating diagnoses and repeated medical setbacks with genuine (though not perfect) peace, they notice. Jenn recounts multiple instances of people saying, "I don't know how you're handling this so well," which creates natural opportunities to point to the source of that peace—not personal strength, but God's sustaining presence. This aligns with 1 Peter 3:15's instruction to always be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have. For believers, suffering is never wasted because it demonstrates to a skeptical world that Christian faith is not merely theoretical or confined to good times. The gospel proves its power most clearly when it enables believers to endure what should be unbearable. Jenn's testimony shows that effective evangelism often flows not from having all the answers but from displaying authentic dependence on God through difficulty, which prompts questions from those who lack that anchor in their own suffering. Memorable Quotes "I don't always have to do the fighting. I don't have to fight this stuff. The Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it." — Jenn Schwamb "God never said that this was gonna be easy... I often think, well, why wouldn't it happen to me? Like, why wouldn't it happen to any of us?" — Jenn Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 484 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:00:52] Jenn Schwamb: I'm Jen.  [00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this is the podcast where two Become one. Hey sister.  [00:00:57] Jenn Schwamb: Hey brother. That's so weird. Did not like that at all.  [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Well, listen, before we get into it, and we're gonna get into a great conversation on this episode about suffering and steadfastness and encouragement, and we're gonna talk about it like you have never heard it talked about on the Reform Brotherhood podcast before. And that's in part or in whole because we got a special guest, the most specialist guest in my view, that we have ever had on this podcast. Why don't you tell us who you are?  [00:01:28] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm Jen, your wife.  [00:01:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, you are. And we figured it was about time after 10 long years, and it took 484 episodes to get Jen to come onto the podcast. Listen, this is one of the great marriages of all time. That's what people are saying, not me. Other people are saying that about us.  [00:01:51] Jenn Schwamb: I don't think so.  [00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: And they're absolutely saying it. And it's finally time that we had you on the podcast, and I am super excited. On a scale of like nine to 10, how excited are you to finally do this? [00:02:01] Jenn Schwamb: I'm terrified. I'm so uncomfortable already. This is so weird. This  [00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: is fantastic. Everybody we're sitting in now, our makeshift Kitchen studio, two microphones at the kitchen table across from each other, just doing what the Reform Brotherhood Podcast does, talking about God. And that's what we intend to do today. But of course, before we get to the topic at hand, you know. Or actually maybe you don't know. You know a little bit about affirmations and denials, but even, even before we get there, there's an important thing we gotta talk about, and that is how many podcast episodes of the Reformed Brotherhood would you have said you have listened to? [00:02:38] Jenn Schwamb: I am pretty sure zero, maybe half. Maybe half of one. Because I do remember, I remember when you and Tony had the idea for the podcast, and I remember you guys starting to record episodes early on, and I feel like I'm certain, I tried to listen to it, but very quickly. So  [00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: kind  [00:02:58] Jenn Schwamb: very quickly was like, Nope, not for me. [00:03:00] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we understand we are not everybody else's jammed, so this is why it makes good sense then to start this episode with a quiz about their reformed brotherhood. Oh no. Wow. For you to answer. So I have five questions here for you. And these are all questions about the Reformed Brotherhood, which I think many of these you'll be able to answer just by way of, I don't think  [00:03:19] Jenn Schwamb: so. [00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: Osmosis all. Are you ready? It's gonna be great. Get excited. Question one. How did the Reform Brotherhood podcast officially begin? Was it a,  [00:03:30] Jenn Schwamb: oh, that's multiple choice.  Okay.  [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: Tony accidentally purchased two microphones instead of one and wanted somebody to talk to.  [00:03:36] Jenn Schwamb: Nope.  [00:03:36] Jesse Schwamb: Was it B? I didn't think there were enough Reform Theological podcasts in the world. [00:03:42] Jenn Schwamb: No.  [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Was it C You and my sister went shopping and left Tony and I at a brewery, or was it Dee Tony found someone who was wrong on the internet?  [00:03:52] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I mean, it could be Dee as well, but it was C because we were at Trobe's Brewery when Ashley and Tony were visiting us here, and I don't know how it came up, but you and Tony, well, maybe it came up while Ashley and I were shopping. [00:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:04:06] Jenn Schwamb: I couldn't remember if you guys talked about it and then we were like, we're outta here. Or if we had already left and then you, when we came back, you guys were like, guess what? We're gonna start a podcast.  [00:04:15] Jesse Schwamb: We need a sound effect. You absolutely got that correct. Okay. And. I think it officially began once you left us. This is what happens, I'm sure. Okay. When you leave us alone,  [00:04:23] Jenn Schwamb: we all noted,  [00:04:24] Jesse Schwamb: we started a podcast and then at a  [00:04:25] Jenn Schwamb: brewery,  [00:04:26] Jesse Schwamb: 10 years later, here we are sitting across the table from each other recording an episode. Alright, question two. Okay. It's a little bit more difficult.  [00:04:33] Jenn Schwamb: Oh no,  [00:04:34] Jesse Schwamb: but I'm confident in you. Which of the following is not a catchphrase of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast? Is it A, that makes me want to run through a wall. B, Calvinism has the Riz C God does all the verbs. Or, D, salvation is like a cake. Now remember, you're looking for the one that is not,  [00:04:57] Jenn Schwamb: first of all, the fact that you're telling me that. You guys say multiples, like there's more than one of, there's the one that you don't say don't. That's concerning to me. I'm hoping. I'm hoping it's the one where you said Riz. 'cause you and Tony shouldn't be saying Riz.  [00:05:12] Jesse Schwamb: It is not your final answer.  [00:05:13] Jenn Schwamb: Yes.  [00:05:13] Jesse Schwamb: B Calvinism has, you are correct.  [00:05:15] Jenn Schwamb: Okay. Yeah. Good. You guys  [00:05:16] Jesse Schwamb: can't be saying that. Said that in my life.  [00:05:17] Jenn Schwamb: You can't be saying that.  [00:05:18] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that you're absolutely right. Thanks. Phew. Thanks for calling us out in this hypothetical world that I've created. Alright, question three. This is more difficult still. R Scott Clark is a reformed theologian, theologian pastor, professor and writer who is often mentioned on the podcast. What does the R in his name stand for? Is it a Randy b Rufuss? C Reginald D. Nobody knows. What does the R in R Scar Clark stand for?  [00:05:51] Jenn Schwamb: I've never heard of that person.  [00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: If you had to guess Randy Rufuss, Regina Reginald, or nobody know  [00:05:57] Jenn Schwamb: I Reginald, but I'm gonna go with nobody knows. 'cause I don't know.  [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: You are right on both accounts. Okay. I would've taken both. So the great joke we have is we call him Reginald, but nobody actually knows. So  [00:06:06] Jenn Schwamb: like, actually nobody knows. Like the internet doesn't know.  [00:06:08] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. I don't think so.  [00:06:10] Jenn Schwamb: Chachi? Bt doesn't know.  [00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: I don't think  [00:06:11] Jenn Schwamb: so. Oh, impressive Art. Scott something.  [00:06:14] Jesse Schwamb: Clark.  [00:06:15] Jenn Schwamb: Clark,  [00:06:15] Jesse Schwamb: yeah. So really you just cleaned up on that question by getting both. Is he  [00:06:18] Jenn Schwamb: alive  [00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: of the potential? Yes, very much so.  [00:06:20] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, I feel like somebody could find out what the art stands for. [00:06:24] Jesse Schwamb: The whole fun now is the secretive nature of this whole thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's a lovely mystery like the Trinity, but certainly not as profound. Alright, question four, only two more left. And you are batting a thousand right now. Phew. You're better at this than I think you thought you were gonna be. I had every confidence. Alright, question four. The podcast was once famously nominated for an award.  [00:06:45] Jenn Schwamb: No,  [00:06:46] Jesse Schwamb: what was that? Thank you for the confidence. What was that award? Was it a top 50? Healthcare Podcasts? B. The top PO 10 podcasts with hosts who look similar. C, top 100 Theo Theology podcasts that won't stop making episodes or D Top 25 podcasts about the weather. Which of these did the Reform Brotherhood actually receive a nomination for?  [00:07:14] Jenn Schwamb: Oh my God.  [00:07:15] Jesse Schwamb: Was it Healthcare? The one were the  [00:07:17] Jenn Schwamb: same one, like they're still making episodes.  [00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: Final answer.  [00:07:20] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so close. So the great joke is, at one point in time we were nominated as a top 50 healthcare podcast, like nominated in quotation marks. [00:07:29] Jenn Schwamb: That sounds vaguely familiar. Now that. But I don't remember why.  [00:07:32] Jesse Schwamb: Apparently affirmations, denials had put us into a category of healthcare at one point. So,  [00:07:37] Jenn Schwamb: oh, it's like therapy or something.  [00:07:38] Jesse Schwamb: We'll get there. Yeah, something like that. Alright, final question. And at this point, three for four is a really strong showing. I'm very impressed. Here is the last question. Perhaps the hardest of them all. Question five, who speaks the most on the Reformed Brotherhood podcast? Is it a Tony?  [00:07:59] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Or just Tony? Based on what I can hear through the floor of our, of our house. I, I am aware of when you're speaking and I'm guessing it's Tony,  [00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: we're gonna go with a Tony. [00:08:11] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.  [00:08:12] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody knows. Everybody knows. We love Tony. We miss him on this episode, but not as much as I enjoy having my wife with us.  [00:08:19] Affirmations and Denials Comfort Picks [00:08:19] Jesse Schwamb: So let's move in then to affirmations and denials before we get to the topic at hand. You know the drill, and if you're listening for the first time, we do these things called affirmations and denials because we're coming alongside the reformed tradition where it would come and say, I affirm with these principles, or deny against these things. And we've taken that to use in our own conversations as, here's some things we really, really like, or here's some things that are really not that great. So, Jen, I ask you on this episode, are you affirming with or or denying against something?  [00:08:49] Jenn Schwamb: Affirming.  [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: What are you affirming  [00:08:50] Jenn Schwamb: with? Oh, I have to go first. [00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, you're the best.  [00:08:53] Jenn Schwamb: I don't even know how you guys do them. 'cause I've never listened and I don't think you had affirmations and denials when you first started.  [00:08:59] Jesse Schwamb: No. This, that was, who  [00:09:00] Jenn Schwamb: knows when that started. There's one episode that I maybe listened  [00:09:02] Jesse Schwamb: to. Yeah, that's a great question.  [00:09:03] Jenn Schwamb: Um, well welcome. I decided I was gonna affirm because it was the first thing that came to my mind when you told me I was gonna have to do something. Uh, and I don't know, maybe you've affirmed it before, but it is the brand of clothing re, which I am decked out in right now. Specifically their joggers and their hoodie sweatshirt.  [00:09:20] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. But you gotta tell the people like why you like this. There's so much you call them, they're,  [00:09:24] Jenn Schwamb: oh, well, what I call, and not just me, but my friends and my car. I've never heard  [00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: anybody else say this.  [00:09:29] Jenn Schwamb: These, these specific sweatpants, which are the VUI performance joggers. Uh, we call them butter pants because they feel like butter. They're really soft, they're really comfortable. I will say the brand is not particularly cheap. They're a little on the pricey side. I do not normally spend this amount of money on clothing. I shop at thrift stores, but when it comes to my athleisure, I like to be comfortable. And so these are my favorite. I'm wearing right now, the performance joggers and a hoodie, and I'm never been more comfortable.  [00:10:04] Jesse Schwamb: And we really should be sponsored by Vori at this point.  [00:10:06] Jenn Schwamb: That'd be great.  [00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: That's a, I mean, that would be great for  [00:10:09] Jenn Schwamb: what if you got a sponsorship for Vori after the one episode that I was on. [00:10:14] Jesse Schwamb: This is gonna be the definitive Vori episode. I also do, I have a pair of these? Did you get me a pair of pants?  [00:10:20] Jenn Schwamb: Uh, I got you a pair of pants once you tried 'em on. And we were both like, no. Oh, that's a good, that was not a good choice.  [00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It was a fit though.  [00:10:26] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Not a good choice for you.  [00:10:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:10:29] Jenn Schwamb: That particular swim, they were comfortable. You have. Something  [00:10:34] Jesse Schwamb: nobody knows.  [00:10:36] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, there's, oh, maybe you don't.  [00:10:37] Jesse Schwamb: No,  [00:10:37] Jenn Schwamb: I got your rabbit stuff. That's true. You like to wear the rabbit brand. Also affirming that very good brand  [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Of athleisure. So you're looking for something that's super comfortable and if whatever reason you've ever thought to yourself. These pants are slightly more rough than I would like. Is there something that would feel like somebody put butter on my legs, then there's good news.  [00:10:56] Jenn Schwamb: Mm-hmm.  [00:10:56] Jesse Schwamb: That's a really strong affirmation.  [00:10:57] Jenn Schwamb: They're out there.  [00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I think that's great. Alright, so I'm gonna also affirm with on this episode, and it's has to do with you 'cause it's something you just brought home and I'm enjoying now. I did just buy that right before we started coughing. We, we, the background is we've had a little sickness in our household, A little flu, a little cold action, which we were pretty good in convalescing from. And then all of a sudden we decided, why don't we set up some microphones? And both of us had never wanted to cough more in our entire lives. [00:11:24] Jenn Schwamb: I never wanted to cough more than right this second.  [00:11:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. That's how it goes. It's like when something funny happens in church and you've gotta keep it together. Same principle play here. So, but you brought home and I'm enjoying this non-alcoholic beer, which has been my jam recently. I'm really just enjoying. Having the treat of beer but without the alcohol, which is nice. And this is a brand I haven't had before, Bero, BERO,  [00:11:47] Jenn Schwamb: I think that's how you say it.  [00:11:48] Jesse Schwamb: And I am trying the double tasty West Coast style IPA because it's fun and it's, it's actually delicious. So I think it used to be that when you had non-alcoholic beer, you knew you were having it because it tasted funky. Just bad.  [00:12:05] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:12:05] Jesse Schwamb: I dunno why I'm asking you, but  [00:12:06] Jenn Schwamb: I know you're looking at me like, you know when you've had all that non-alcoholic beer  [00:12:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:12:10] Jenn Schwamb: For so many years.  [00:12:11] Jesse Schwamb: For as much alcoholic beer as you've had as episodes, you've listened to the podcast.  [00:12:14] Jenn Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: What did you think? But this is fantastic and I've had a couple recently and they're just so good. I wouldn't be able to tell. So it's really nice.  [00:12:21] Jenn Schwamb: It looks like a beer.  [00:12:22] Jesse Schwamb: It does. It has like the head of a beer. It has a little bit of that lacing on the side of the glass. But also more than anything, I wanna cough so bad right now, so this is like  [00:12:31] Jenn Schwamb: delicious. Do you wanna tell people why I think that beer to buy or do we not wanna say that? And by beer, I mean non-alcoholic beer.  [00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Is there a secret?  [00:12:37] Jenn Schwamb: Because Tom Holland's affiliated with it somehow and he's Spider-Man that, and I love a Marvel movie. I movie know. That's how I found out about it. He talked about it like on a late night show or something, and he, I don't know if he created it, if he's a partner in it, if he, I don't know, he's sober. And one, it was looking for good. I remember him talking about looking for good non-alcoholic beer. It didn't feel like there were many out there. So he had some sort of involvement in that  [00:13:00] Jesse Schwamb: and thought so he just made it himself.  [00:13:01] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know. I just knew he's affiliated and I hadn't seen it anywhere. And then this morning I saw it, so I had to get it. [00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's really good. I feel a little tingly this, these are all kinds of jokes Tony would love right now. Ugh.  [00:13:13] Jenn Schwamb: I can't wait for Tony to listen to this.  [00:13:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, neither can.  [00:13:16] Suffering and Endometriosis Journey [00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be a joy for everybody and I think it really will be because I've, you and I have talked about doing a podcast for quite some time, having it on the podcast, not this type podcast. That's true. All we have had all kinds of ideas. But when it came time for me to think about people that I would like to talk to in this season of the podcast, honestly, you were the first one that came to my mind. And in part that's because we've got some stuff going on in our lives and you in particular, and for a while you've been on a journey of sorts. And I think that the one thing that Tony and I try to bring into all our conversations is that. If the, if your theology doesn't work in the course of normal life, then it just doesn't work. So it doesn't matter how much we know and how much we process, what we can even recapitulate or regurgitate in terms of profound theories and philosophies and big words, if it is not the kind of thing that draws us close to our Lord Jesus Christ, that enables us to serve him, to love others more and to have the kind of firm faith that he desires for us in this life as we live it abundantly in the way that he's given it to us, then what does it matter? And you have a profound amount of theology in your life and in practice, and that's something I very much admire. And so we chose this topic because we thought it'd be super fun for everybody. Let's talk about suffering and let's talk about steadfastness. And we've talked so much in the past, and this is what makes it special. We talked so much in the past about how suffering exists because of the fall, but it's govern governed by, governed by God's sovereign providence. And for believers, suffering is never a condemnation. You and I've talked about that quite a bit. Because Christ has made a way through all of that. He's paid for that fully on the cross. The mortgage in our soul has been paid in full. We talked about that actually in the last episode. Instead, though God doesn't remove this suffering, he uses it to sanctify, to harmful, to refine, to preserve his people. And that steadfastness is the grace enabled endurance of faith through trial, sustained by the word, through the prayer, through ordinary means. All the things that are part and parcel that you hear people say in reform theology. But really only matter when we impound them in our journey and we are anchored in them by the promise that after suffering comes glory. And so in all of that, Julia thought about you. So I think maybe a good place to start is maybe talk a little bit about your journey. Why? Why you're even one that I want to talk to you about this topic.  [00:15:38] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I don't know why you wanna talk to me about this topic. You've certainly heard enough of it. Um. I guess I don't know where to start. So I guess I'll start with the end, which is I, uh, suffer from a chronic illness called endometriosis. Um, specifically I deal with, um, an aggressive form called deep infiltrating endometriosis, which means that mine likes to infiltrate all sorts of organs that it does not belong in. Um, it's an illness that affects women, uh, it affects a lot of women. I was actually just telling Jesse that I just discovered this morning, I think on Facebook, that it's Endometriosis Awareness Month. Who knew? And that it said something on there about, you know, one in 10 women suffer from endometriosis. Wow. Which was shocking to me because, you know, think of 10 women. You know, at least one of them is probably dealing with this. So I have endometriosis, have had it for a long time. Um, it's very painful. Um, it's very awful. There's a lot that goes into that and I'm not really sure where to start in that story. Um,  [00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: and this is something that, like you said, you've discovered a little while ago was gonna be part of your life. And we should say that this is why we're one of the top 50 healthcare podcasts or you're about to be  [00:16:59] Jenn Schwamb: now. [00:17:00] Jesse Schwamb: So on this episode, there is gonna be a little bit of medical talk, I think. So just take that as a fair warning on the conversation. Why don't you explain a little bit like, can we call it Endo? I know that kind of like Yeah, we  [00:17:10] Jenn Schwamb: can call it endo  [00:17:10] Jesse Schwamb: makes it sound cool, but it's not cool. Not cool, but like basically just generally what it is. [00:17:16] Jenn Schwamb: So what it is essentially is, I was gonna say I don't, dude, I'm guessing most of your audience is dudes.  [00:17:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get ready guys,  [00:17:24] Jenn Schwamb: um, about to say the word uterus a bunch of times. So buckle up. Um, essentially endometriosis is uterine like tissue. That is outside of the uterus. And so it causes all sorts of problems because it gets inflamed, it causes bloating, and it responds, um, in a variety of ways. That's very frustrating and awful for some women. Um, it's mostly impacts them during their menstrual cycle. For other women, it impacts them every day of their life. All the time. They're in pain constantly. We discovered that I had it, I'm trying to think, probably 16, 17 years ago, um, as a result of, um, Jesse forcing me to go to the emergency room after he found me, I think crying on the floor of our house, um, and telling him, no, it's normal. It's just cramps. This is just cramps. This is what girls go through. Spoiler alert is not just cramps and that's not normal amount of pain to be in. So we discovered it then, uh, after a trip to the hospital and discovering that I was littered with fibroids, um, and then had surgery for that, which is where we uncovered the endo. Um, 'cause often endo is diagnosed via like a laparoscopic surgery. It's not, it doesn't show up on MRIs or other imaging, right? So the way to confirm that you have it is via like an exploratory surgery. Uh, so that's when we found out that I had endo, but it made a lot of things make sense because I had been dealing with what I just thought was just really painful cramps for probably most of my, I dunno, teen years into adulthood. Um, had never heard of Endo before. As far as I know, nobody in my family also experienced it. So it is common if, if it's in your family, like you might also have it, but not for me. Yeah.  [00:19:12] Jesse Schwamb: So let's talk about then, 'cause this is all important in getting to this point of how this has impacted you and how this, how you understand theology and your servanthood in this and you're bearing up underneath this. But maybe you want to just say briefly, after finding out that that's part of your life, what are some things you've been through because of this?  [00:19:30] Jenn Schwamb: So when we found out about it because of the fibroids, I had had surgery months, I think probably after that to have the fibroids removed and some endo excision, uh, or ablation at the time. 'cause I didn't know the importance of excision then, um, to have it removed and felt a lot better for a little while, maybe for a couple of years. Um, and then have experienced all sorts of things, um, as a result of endo largely besides the pain and all of that stuff. Um, I don't know if Jesse's talked about it on the podcast before, but one of the main things with endometriosis is very common for people to suffer from infertility as a result of endometriosis, which has definitely been our story. Um, but on top of that, I've had. I don't even know so many surgeries. Yep. Um, I've had some surgeries that didn't go the way that we thought they would go and things that we didn't even know were possible. Right. Um, so probably, I guess it was eight years ago now, nine years ago, in 2018, I had had a surgery to remove more fibroids and to remove endometriosis. And what I remember about that surgery was that I think it was supposed to be four hours long. So when I woke up, it was supposed to be noon. And I, that was what I remember going to sleep and thinking when I wake up it'll be like lunchtime. And I remember waking up and the surgeon sitting next to me, which was unusual, and I remember her saying, Jennifer, it's five 30 or something like that. Right. And I just remember thinking, that's not. Right, right. What happened? Um, and a lot of things had happened that I found out within the hours after that. And essentially in that surgery, they had determined, they had come to Jesse and asked if they could move me into open surgery from the laparoscopic to get better access to it. In the open surgery, discovered that the endo had infiltrated, like I said, uh, my colon, uh, they needed to bring in another surgeon to do a resection of my colon, all with Jesse's permission. So he's just like in the waiting room saying like, I guess, go ahead.  [00:21:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:21:30] Jenn Schwamb: Do what you need to do. Right. Um, so when I woke up from that surgery, essentially I found out that it had infiltrated my colon and that they had done a resection. They had taken about six inches, I think of my colon out, put it back together. So all was well we thought. Um, and then while I was in the hospital recovering from that, I was in the hospital. I think it was like day seven I was being discharged. I remember vividly you tying my shoes. Yes. That's the part I remember. I had just gotten dressed. Jessie had just tied my shoes. We had just signed the discharge paperwork and I remember saying, I don't feel really good. And Jessie said, get back in the bed. And I said, no, no, no. I'm just nervous about going home. Uh, I think that's why I don't feel good. And then everything after that was a blur because the next thing I remember is that I was in the bed, that there were a lot of people around me. I remember people covering me with bags of ice.  [00:22:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:22:22] Jenn Schwamb: Um, and I don't remember a whole lot after that, but the short version of that long story is that I ended up having another emergency surgery, turned out my resection had not taken. I was leaking, going septic. Um, and so I had to go into emergency surgery and came out of that surgery with a lovely colostomy bag  [00:22:41] Jesse Schwamb: Mm. [00:22:41] Jenn Schwamb: That Jessie had to tell me about. Mm-hmm. He had to live That's right. To deliver that news. I forgot  [00:22:45] Jesse Schwamb: about that. Um, so that was a whole traumatic and just dramatic situation, wasn't it? I remember when the doctors were putting all that ice on you and you were spiking like an incredible fever. I remember calling everybody I knew just to ask that they would pray and. That's another example I think that's we'll get to is God being good to us in that journey in very difficult times, always showing up even when everything felt like it was, it was falling apart. And so you went in for a surgery that was supposed to be outpatient, right? As wild as that was supposed to go home. Remember that home? Yeah. Then it took an extra, like five hours. Then it was possible that, uh, what happened basically is that that resection didn't fuse properly through nobody's fault. In fact, the doctor who did that surgery, who since did my gallbladder surgery Yeah. This past year.  [00:23:35] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, that's right. Same guy.  [00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: He was such a kind doctor. Really? God brought us to him and he was so beside himself with grief over that it didn't work. And I remember when I spoke with him. And he come out after that second surgery and said, I'm so sorry, but, but she's gonna have to have a temporary colostomy. And he was just devastated by having to have done that, even though he, we all knew it was a possibility. And so I said to him, well, well, how many of these have you done? He said, thou, I've done thousands of these. And the resections, I said, how many of them have had a problem where it didn't take? And he said, including this one. I said, yes. He said two. So, I mean, talk about how, how do you think about something like that when. Everything around you is like telling you, well, this is just really bad luck, or you've just been really given, you've drawn the really short straw. But instead, you know, our perspective is, is very, very different than that. And, and I wanna get to that, but now you're kind of up against something else, right? There's more things on the horizon. Yeah.  [00:24:33] Jenn Schwamb: Now we're, now we're back to it. Um, so it had the colostomy, like Jesse said, it was temporary, had it for five months, had another surgery five months later to have it reversed. It all went well. It was great. Um, I had a few years, a number of years there where I was feeling pretty good. Um, last few years could tell things were ramping up again. Maybe not doing so hot. But to be honest, um, I was really putting off any sort of surgery conversation. 'cause the last one wasn't great. Right. So really didn't, wasn't eager to do it again. Um, but recently, um, I had been having a lot of pain in my back and my like right. Right hand side of my back, particularly during my cycle. And I just would tell Jesse, oh, it's just normal endo stuff. It just comes with a territory, right? It's what you, what you gotta deal with. Um, and then, um, back in October, that pain that normally I could kind of get to go away with a bunch of medication and some icy hot patches would not go away. Uh, it just would not relent. And I was texting some of my medical professional friends and they were like, you should just go to the hospital just to make sure that it's not something more serious. Um, so went through that whole process, went to the er. Um, turns out, um, the, my endo that likes to infiltrate things has now infiltrated my ureter and was blocking my ureter, which was causing my kidney to be swollen and angry, which was what was causing the pain. Um, when I was in the hospital for that, they kept me, did a procedure, I forget what it was called, but essentially tried their best to remove  [00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: the blockage.  [00:26:04] Jenn Schwamb: The blockage. They didn't know it was endo. I knew it was endo. Right. Um. They removed it, put in a stent. Um, I had the stent for about a month, all while still in a lot of pain, still communicating with the doctor that something doesn't feel right, I think something's wrong. Um, went back to the ER about a month later. Turns out stent had failed. So now I have this lovely thing called a nephrostomy tube that is in my back. It's a tube that is directly into my kidney. Um, comes outta my kidney, outta my back, and is attached to a bag that is strapped to my leg. And that's, I have basically a, what I call a urine water balloon attached to my leg all over the time. [00:26:46] Jesse Schwamb: Go. So another catchphrase  [00:26:47] Jenn Schwamb: for the  [00:26:47] Jesse Schwamb: podcast.  [00:26:48] Jenn Schwamb: So, um. It's, I'm, I've gotten to experience, I feel like, uh, the gamut of, I've had the colostomy bag and now I have the nephrostomy bag. Uh, this should be temporary. That's the hope and the plan. I'll have this until I have surgery again, which is scheduled for in May. Um, at which point I will have a total hysterectomy and a bunch of other things and a repair of my ureter. They'll have to kind of do what they did with my colon. They'll have to do a resection of my ureter, take out that portion where the endo is, reimplant it in my bladder, possibly move my bladder up. I don't know. It's very whole, they, it's a lot of things. It's  [00:27:26] Jesse Schwamb: be a whole  [00:27:26] Jenn Schwamb: zoning out. When the urology, urologist was telling me, 'cause I just was like, I don't know what you're talking about.  [00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be a party in that or loved ones. That's, that's what we keep saying.  [00:27:35] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.  [00:27:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's what's ahead. So I should stop there and say, I pray for Jen. Pray for us if you would, that is coming up in a couple months. If you're listening to this, it's, and it's before may, we definitely cover your prayers. This is the big one.  [00:27:48] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah,  [00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: right. This is the big one.  [00:27:50] Jenn Schwamb: This is the one.  [00:27:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's a lot  [00:27:51] Jenn Schwamb: we didn't wanna have.  [00:27:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And it's difficult and it's hard. And you're probably hearing from us like this is real stuff. And that's why I was so grateful that Jen would be willing to talk about this, because I think there are people that need to hear this, need to hear, there's encouragement in this, that there's others who are experiencing this type of thing. But I think the best place to start is something that you and I have talked about a little bit before, which is how, how, maybe that's the best place. Just how I think, especially for teens. I  [00:28:19] Jenn Schwamb: don't know.  [00:28:19] Jesse Schwamb: It's difficult to understand, but you've been through a lot of things, and I know that you've experienced the depth of some of those things, especially after that first surgery with the colostomy. But what has, what has God brought you through? Like what is it that when it is hard that you, you find yourself going to God for?  [00:28:42] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, so. It's hard. I don't wanna say it's hard to talk about 'cause it's not only, it's hard to talk about. I'm an open book. I'll tell anybody anything. I just don't often talk about this. I don't bring it up because I also feel like when you get me talking about it, I think it's, I'm very tempted to say it's not a big deal. It's really not that big of a deal, right? When other people are like, no, it isn't a big deal. I'm like, there's really not. 'cause I think about like so many women or men that go through such just way worse things. And there are a lot of women, particularly with endometriosis, that are in pain every single day. And very, I'm very fortunate that that is not always the case for me. I'm not in pain all of the time.  [00:29:21] Colostomy Learning Curve [00:29:21] Jenn Schwamb: Um, but to your point, when I was dealing with the colostomy in particular, that was a really, really hard time. It's amazing what time does 'cause over time, I look back at that and go, oh, it wasn't so bad. And you're like, remember it was really bad. It was 10, but you know, as time goes on, you're like, no, it was okay. It was all right. Um, but I do remember. Having a really, really, really hard time with it. I remember journaling a lot. That's how Jesse knows I'm really going through something is if he sees my journal out, he's like, oh no. Uh oh. Um, because that is often how I'll, like when I'm going through something really tough, I'll journal my prayers. I'll write to God in the journal when I'm thinking. And I just was really struggling with that. 'cause spoiler colostomy is rough. Yes, it was hard to learn. It was a big learning curve. And they just send you home with a bunch of stuff,  [00:30:12] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:30:12] Jenn Schwamb: And a lot of instruction, and you're just reeling and you're like, I don't understand how this works. And I have to eventually go back to work and I have to have this, and what do I do? And what if something leaks? Like it was just, it was a lot to deal with, even though I knew it was temporary. So I remember in those times just journaling a lot, praying a lot, asking God to. Make it clear why? I just kept asking, I think I was asking why, like why do I have to have the colostomy  [00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:30:37] Jenn Schwamb: There has to be a reason. I know there's a reason. Could you tell me the reason? I would like to know the reason. I'm waiting to hear the reason, you know, like I just remember being like, what is it you're, I know you're looking at it. I know you can see right the path ahead. Um, and I remember reading a book at the time. I wish I could remember the name of the book 'cause I would love to tell you, I don't remember what it was. I do know it wasn't about suffering.  [00:31:03] Jesse Schwamb: Was it by ars Scott Clark?  [00:31:04] Jenn Schwamb: No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Also, I'm sure Jesse's never talked about this on the podcast, but it is shocking that I was reading a book because not really a big reader. [00:31:14] From Victim to Steward [00:31:14] Jenn Schwamb: Um, but I was reading something and I remember one of the quotes in the book was something along the lines about, it was about like accepting your circumstances from God, knowing that like God could be trusted and that he knows best and has your, you know. Best in mind and kind of getting to that acceptance of your circumstances and then moving from that acceptance, like, if you can get to the acceptance of your circumstances, you can then ask God to use those circumstances to glorify him. And if you can get to that point, then you're mo it was something about like moving from victim to steward. Mm-hmm. That's the part that really stuck with me,  [00:31:54] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:31:54] Jenn Schwamb: Was that movement from not no longer being a victim and being a steward. And I just remember asking God to help me be a good steward of the situation. I don't like feeling like a victim. That's partly why I don't like talking about the stuff, is I don't want people to feel bad for me.  [00:32:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:32:10] Jenn Schwamb: Don't feel bad for me. It's fine.  [00:32:13] Jesse Schwamb: I feel great for you.  [00:32:13] Jenn Schwamb: Good. Great. I don't want people to feel bad. Um, and I, I don't wanna feel like a victim. I'm not. I just, I don't, you know. And so I remember asking God just, could you help me be a good steward? Like, what, what would that look like? And I remember asking God that like he would just gimme opportunities to talk to other people maybe that have to eventually have colostomies. I didn't know if I ever would. Spoiler. I did get to, which was crazy. Um, and I mean, during those times too, I had a lot of family and friends that would reach out and share passages and verses. I was just thinking, I've had people I remember very distinctly too, during that time, my sister, uh, Stephanie sending me a text. It was like shortly after I was home, and I don't remember the exact reference. It was somewhere in Exodus and it was the, it was, uh, the Lord will fight for you. You need only remain silent. You need only be silent or still, or something like that.  [00:33:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:33:05] Jenn Schwamb: And I remember the time being like, why would she send me that? Like, I don't even know how that fits. What, come on Steph, come, what, what does this mean? But then I remember really kind of sitting with it and thinking about it. And I've had friends in my recent circumstance send me that same thing. Wow. Out of nowhere. Also named Steph.  [00:33:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:33:22] Jenn Schwamb: A friend named Steph Wow. Has sent me that passage and just kind of, you know, thinking about that, that I don't. I don't always have to do the fighting. I don't have to, I don't have to do it. I don't have to fight this stuff. I just, the Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I, I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it.  [00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So how has, like some of this stuff, maybe everything you've been through, but something in particular changed how you view God or how has going through those things changed your relationship with him because you've been through some stuff together. 'cause I'm, I'm with you. We, we look at the scriptures and we see this amazing example from David who is saying to God all the time, why and how long and what are you doing? So we know like we're standing on, in like the shadow of those who great heroes of the faith have come before us and understand that God can hold up to our questions and our time about suffering. I feel like it's maybe the most honest thing we can do is to just cry out. And no doubt you were doing a lot of that. I remember that. So having cried out to God, maybe move from victim and steward, how has that changed your relationship with him? How you view him?  [00:34:29] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm trying to think of how I wanna like, say that. I mean, if anything, I think it really, in those hard times, in the continued hard times, it certainly makes me rely on God more, have more conversations with him, have be more candid. I'm a little bit more like candid in my approach to God and how I talk to him, whether that's in my journal or verbally or out loud or while I'm driving. Um, because he can take it, right? He can. I don't have to be like, pretty please or say things a certain way. I can just say, what is happening? Why are you, why is this happening to me? Um, but again, that's another reason that's hard for me to talk about because I often think, well, why wouldn't it happen to me? Like, why wouldn't it happen to any of us? Like, God never said that this was gonna be easy.  [00:35:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. That. So that's really interesting and I, I've thought about that too, is why, why flip it that way?  [00:35:21] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know. It just, I, it just, I, I think that's why I'm just like, of course, like I'm. I guess maybe I'm just less surprised. That sounds really terrible to say.  [00:35:32] Jesse Schwamb: I know. Yeah.  [00:35:33] Jenn Schwamb: It sounds really pretentious. Be like, of course it's happening to me.  [00:35:36] Jesse Schwamb: No, no, no, no. I, I think, I think what, as we've talked about it, what we're reflecting on is that the world is broken. Like you and I have often joke that like endo is the most foolproof, that our bodies are totally depraved. That like sin is in our world because like it cells that should hang out in one part of the body going wherever they want, unruly and unchecked and causing massive pain and disruption to everything else. And I don't think anybody could look at that situation and say, this is not how it's supposed to be. Like, every doctor we've ever talked to has been like, it shouldn't be like this. And we wanna say, we're always like, yeah, we know.  [00:36:11] Jenn Schwamb: That's true. That's like the overarching phrase I feel like that I've dealt with my, a lot of my adult life is it's not supposed to be this way.  [00:36:17] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:36:18] Jenn Schwamb: Because it's not  [00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: right. [00:36:19] Jenn Schwamb: It isn't supposed to be this way. Um, and I, it has opened up a lot of. Uh, conversations for me with my friends, with loved ones, with coworkers, because I can kind of start at that point and be like, yeah, this sucks. And it's not supposed to be this way. This isn't how our bodies were supposed to be. Um, you know, there's, there is brokenness. There is suffering. And that, you know, people that know that we are believers, I think often can, sometimes from the outside think that, you know, life is easy and we've got it all together and 'cause, you know, things can look more peaceful. And it's like, no, it doesn't always go that way. And I think you and I often talk about, I don't, I can't imagine going through this without God. Like, how do, how do people do that?  [00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  [00:37:03] Jenn Schwamb: How's that even possible?  [00:37:04] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  [00:37:05] Jenn Schwamb: How do you explain anything,  [00:37:08] Jesse Schwamb: right? How, how do you even process it?  [00:37:09] Jenn Schwamb: How do you process it? How do you know where to go? How do you have hope that things will improve or if not improve, that there's a reason for it, that God is doing something. In your life for you, for others? I don't, I don't know how people do it.  [00:37:25] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. It, it seems hopeless, and in fact it probably is because suffering is such a deeply personal, intense process, and I think it's particularly difficult when it feels like it doesn't go away. Right. When it's like day after day after day, and you've certainly been in a lot of those circumstances, is there something that sticks out for you that helped move you from that victim mindset to the stored mindset? [00:37:52] Comfort Others Through Suffering [00:37:52] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I think probably just God has given me some opportunities to be there for other people in very similar circumstances, which then helps me with that stewardship mindset of like, oh, okay, like I can help other people through this. Um, I remember asking that God would just give me, you know, help me to be a good steward of the situation. I didn't know what that meant, um, what it meant. Uh, most immediately after the colostomy surgery was that at some point after my reversal, I had met a woman through, I think running through a running group. And then she had joined a bible study that I was leading at the time. And then while in that Bible study, she had discovered that she had, like, I think it was a relatively early stage of colon cancer and that she was gonna have to have surgery and that she was gonna have to have a colostomy. And, um, this woman who I did not know that well, I was now getting to know really well, right? And was visiting her in the hospital and was, I don't wanna say excited, but I was, I was happy that I was gonna get to like, share what I had learned. 'cause I had learned so much about a colostomy and colostomy bag in my experience. And I just wanted to be able to make it easier for somebody else and say like, here, this is what you're gonna need. This is how this works. This is what you can expect. This is normal. This is not normal. Here's the best supplies to buy. Here's where you should buy them from. Right? Um, because it was nobody's fault, but I didn't have that. Nobody was doing that for me. We were just figuring it out. And so I've been able to do that more recently at work. Um, somebody's grandmother was going through some stuff and she needed to have a colostomy bag. And I think this colleague mentioned it to me and I was like, funny you should mention that. I've also had a colostomy bag. Let me tell you what I know. Um, I was not just going around work talking about Colostomies. It had come up in conversation. Um, and so while I've not interacted with her grandmother, I was able to tell her a lot of information that she was able to pass on to her grandmother and her mom. Um, and so, um, yeah, just being able to talk to other people that are going through it. I'm in a number of Endo Facebook groups and things like that, um, where girls are often putting, you know, asking for advice. I don't typically give advice, but I might like DM somebody directly and just say, you know, I don't give medical advice, but I might give product advice. Here's, here's, I went through something similar. Here's the brand I thought was most successful for me. Not a doctor.  [00:40:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, we've said that too though. But again, it's our 50 healthcare podcast. One of the things that I admire about how God has led you in those times is that emphasis on moving into service. I think you said it best, like the idea, it's a steward, something that God has given us. We generally reserve that kind of words for like the blessings. And I think you and I have talked about this, you kind of said it in some of what you were talking about, where we're not quick to just be like, let's call everything a blessing, because like especially sometimes when it hits us, we don't feel that way and I'm not sure it's, it's helpful to try to run right into that space, but God often lovingly and gently moves us into that space so that we can be a blessing to others. I wanna read from second Corinthians and uh, the first chapter, this is Paul writing to the church in Corinth. Right off the top he writes, Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God and Timothy, our brother to the Church of God, which is at Corinth. With all the saints who are throughout Achaia grace to you in priests peace from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. And hearing you say that, I immediately, my mind jumps there. And in fact, like I know, like if we're in any group setting, like we're hanging out with other people and like the colostomy word comes up, I know your ears are gonna be like, I know I'm gonna hear your voicemail. I  [00:41:49] Jenn Schwamb: don't know how that's coming up,  [00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: but did you say colostomy? And I think it's because like you have, I've seen you taking this theology of comfort, that receiving comfort from God, even if that's comfort in this really tremendously horrible experience. And it's not like whistling in the dark or trying to turn it around or make it better than it actually is. It's that the joy of going through it is the joy of being able to comfort somebody else. That's, that's what I see. How would you describe it?  [00:42:19] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know how to describe it. I just, I don't know. I have this just overwhelming feeling of, through all of that. I just, I mean, I just wanna help other people. I just want to make other people's experience better. And I remember seeing a, a tweet when Twitter was a thing somebody had written about, um, you know, if you want, if you want God to use him, or if you want God to use, you don't tell him how.  [00:42:47] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm.  [00:42:48] Jenn Schwamb: And I remember, like, that also often is in my head where I'm just like, you know, asking God, just do whatever you want. I, I'm not gonna tell you how, I don't get to tell you how.  [00:42:56] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's  [00:42:56] Jenn Schwamb: right. But just use me, use my circumstances. Bring up colostomy in conversation so that I can talk about it or now nephrostomy.  [00:43:07] Jesse Schwamb: Right, and that's happened too, right? Since you've had this process, I know there's been others that you've talked to about that. [00:43:12] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:43:13] Jesse Schwamb: And it's interesting because I do think use this not as like a platform, it's like every conversation you have ends up in this place, the conversation we're having right now. Now, to be  [00:43:22] Jenn Schwamb: clear, it does not.  [00:43:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. However, I have seen powerfully the way in which this example and your testimony has provided an amazing influence on our friends who are not believers. How, how has this been something that has helped you talk about what it means to be a Christian?  [00:43:51] Jenn Schwamb: Um, it's hard. I'm, I'm trying to think of how to talk about that, because that's often. Uh, not how I think about it. I, you know, I don't, I'm not thinking about it as, you know, this situation gives me a way to talk to these people about,  [00:44:09] Jesse Schwamb: uh, or that gospel proclamation text. [00:44:10] Jenn Schwamb: It's just, I don't just, I don't know. It just happens. Like, it's just part of  [00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm with you.  [00:44:14] Jenn Schwamb: You know, the conversation. Um, the people that I know, that I work with, that I'm friends with, uh, know us, know us well, know our feelings, know our relationship with God. Um, and so, you know, I I, it has open conversations where people will ask me or say things to me, which are hard for me to hear because I don't understand it, but they'll say like, I don't know how you're dealing with this. You're so peaceful. You're, you're handling it so well. Right? And I think you're crazy. I'm not handling this well at all. This is terrible. I hate this. But, and that's why I don't like talking about it because I'm just like, Ugh, this is not. I'm not handling this well. Um, so that will open a door where I'm often like, well, if it seems like I'm handling this well, let me tell you why that is, because there's a reason for the hope that I have. And there's, you know, I know that, that God has a plan for all of this. Even if I don't understand it or can't see the end, um, I know that he's doing a work in me for me. Um, and, you know, can also share about, you know, just by being a Christian doesn't mean that life will be easy and that it will be without suffering. [00:45:23] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:24] Jenn Schwamb: Um, because that's, I think a lot of people just think that that's the case. Those Christians have it all together, right? Their life is so easy,  [00:45:33] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:45:34] Jenn Schwamb: They don't go through anything hard.  [00:45:35] Jesse Schwamb: Some do come hang out, and the Lord say everybody, yep. You'll see it's, it's the real deal because like you said, God doesn't promise to spare us from these things, and that's what makes this whole conversation about suffering like it turned on its head. Because as we said at the open, all this stuff doesn't get removed. God is redeeming these things. He's implanted us in these things. He's doing something for us. Like what you said, he's with us. I mean, what great encouragement, again, that is not available to the unbeliever,  [00:46:00] Jenn Schwamb: right?  [00:46:00] Jesse Schwamb: So the person who just thinks the world is a dead and ugly place, without reason, without recourse, but instead, one of the things that really hit me with what you were saying was it sounds like you're starting with not the pain you experienced first. Not even like the emotions you experienced first, but you're talking about the character and the sovereignty of God first. That everything gets filtered through that. It's like the sve in which you try to pass through everything. Because when it feels helpless, if we not start with the root of character of God first, then everything is gonna be lost. It's gonna be like suffering's gonna feel like it's, it's random. That it's without purpose, that it's meaningless, that it's for our destruction that's meant to, to. Bring us down instead of to lift us up under the power of God. And I see that in the example. I think that's what people are, are coming to you and saying, because it shouldn't look, can I say it this way? Like it shouldn't look this easy what you're doing. And I know it's not easy and, and you're not like putting on heirs to somehow make it seem like it's something that's not. However, like when you get up to go to work on a day, that's hard. I know it's because you're receiving power from God to do the things which he's called you to do because you've processed it in this way. Is that fair?  [00:47:10] Jenn Schwamb: I guess it guys, it makes me even uncomfortable to hear Jesse say that because I'm just like, I don't think that I'm doing anything special or spectacular or amazing because I'm not like, I just am like, I'm just. Doing the thing. Life is hard sometimes and it's a lot harder for a lot of other people, and so  [00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: that's true. [00:47:35] Jenn Schwamb: But, but  [00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: it's one of those things where I'll use the catchphrase, like God does all the verbs. I think that's, that's what I hear you're saying too, is that you have to move forward, but you're doing that because you believe God has called you to Tuesday meetings and to being with your friends and to being at church and to serving in women's ministry and to leading bible studies, and that he will provide a way for you to do that even in the midst of things that seem pretty horrible. [00:47:59] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:48:00] Jesse Schwamb: In that, in that, in the midst of all that horribleness that God is still doing like a work that's greater than that stuff  [00:48:07] Jenn Schwamb: that bigger. Yeah. He's always given me you, but I can only speak on my, my own behalf. He's always given me the strength to do the thing if I step out to do the thing. Right On. Um, even on those days that are hard and that I'm feeling really bad physically, uh. I know enough, I've been through enough with God to know if I just, if I just keep going, he's gonna gimme the strength, he will. Mm-hmm. It'll be fine. I'll be okay. And so far, I always have been, you know, and so even as we go into this surgery that neither one of us is looking forward to. Right. Uh, probably Jesse's dreading it more than I am. Uh, we both also know that, like, on the other side of it, like he's gonna see us through it all. We, there's no doubt in my mind. That's right. That's right. Like, I know that, but I also know it was gonna be hard. It's, it's probably not gonna be easy. It's probably not gonna be pain-free, but it will be good and it will be. Amen. Better. And that's real faith. We'll get to talk about it with people. Yes. Maybe more than they would like to do about it. You probably all are sick of hearing about it by now. I don't know how long we've been talking about Endo, but it's hours probably too long.  [00:49:21] Jesse Schwamb: Four hours. Longest episode ever. So I think that's a good place to, to kind of wrap up our conversation. And I wanted to give you the opportunity. You've, you've already mentioned this a couple times, you know, that you, you have a heart that's sensitive to people going through things. I think just like Paul writes to the Corinthians here, if you've been through some stuff, you want to be with the people who are going through that stuff. You have a heart that gravitates. Mm-hmm. It just moves, it tilts, it goes in that direction. And so for people listening, and I think there're gonna be people listening that are gonna really resonate with this, or they're gonna send it to somebody who's going through exactly what you're talking about. [00:49:57] Final Advice and Wrap Up [00:49:57] Jesse Schwamb: What's like the one thing you'd want them to know?  [00:50:01] Jenn Schwamb: Oh gosh.  [00:50:02] Jesse Schwamb: I know it's tough, but it's my podcast so I get to ask the questions. [00:50:09] Jenn Schwamb: I mean, oh, that's hard. 'cause there's a lot of things I wanna say. Oh, you  [00:50:12] Jesse Schwamb: can tell. You could say punch. We got  [00:50:14] Jenn Schwamb: all  [00:50:14] Jesse Schwamb: the world. Go ahead.  [00:50:15] Jenn Schwamb: I mean, the one thing that I'd want them to know, which we already talked about is that. God sees them and is with them in this situation. They are not alone. Even if they feel like they are alone or that nobody understands what they're going through, God does. But the other thing I want them to know specifically, I don't know how many women listen to your podcast.  [00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: All right sisters, here you go.  [00:50:38] Jenn Schwamb: But, uh, on the just medical side of things, if you are in any amount of pain during your cycle or outside of your cycle connected to your cycle, that is keeping you from going to work or doing your daily activities or just keeping you from living life, that is not normal. And I thought it was normal for years because doctors just tell us as women is fine. You're fine. Cramps hurt. That's, they shouldn't hurt that much. That's not normal,  [00:51:11] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:51:11] Jenn Schwamb: Um, and you should talk to somebody. You should talk to your doctor and you should keep talking to your doctors until you get. To see the right one that will figure out what's going on. That's the thing that I like to talk to women particularly about the most because we tend to explain our own symptoms away because we're just used to that. Right. And going, it's fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine when it's not. So I just want people to know that it's okay to say this hurts a lot, and I don't think it's normal. [00:51:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I remember we've talked a lot about, for both of us, like pain and experience and we sometimes wanna say, well, somebody probably has it worse, and that'll always be true.  [00:51:53] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.  [00:51:54] Jesse Schwamb: But one of the things that you've taught me very well is that God does see our pain, whatever it is, like whatever level it is. Mm-hmm. That's, that's how big and loving he is. And I remember we used to have, it came in like a placard at some point, like a stock card. It says something like, your pain matters here, or Your pain is relevant here. And I think that that this idea that that's exactly how God sees us, he loves us so deeply and so desperately. All things he would talk about as we've gone through all these parables that he comes for us to be with us in our greatest hour of need. And not only that, but he already did that in our great hour of need, which is when we needed salvation. So when in Isaiah 53 we, we read that Jesus the Messiah is the one who's well acquainted with suffering, who just knows what it's like, and then it's gonna carry and bear our burdens. That for me has like made all the difference. Even as you and I kind of walk through some of this together, I was thinking of, of this journey that we've been on when our pastor, well, I'll give him an attribution for this 'cause he said this in the sermon last week, pastor Steve Wiggins, he said something to the effect of your greatest spiritual breakthrough, the one that you desperately want, the one that's ahead of you. That breakthrough is going to come only when you understand and realize that Jesus has everything for your current and present need. That he is all in all. But he's all in all for you right now in the thing that. Feels like it's so intractable, so difficult, so beyond you. Only when you come to him and submit and surrender yourself to him and say, you are everything that you I need for all in all right now, in this particular instance that really, that breakthrough is beyond that place. And I guess we just had a lot of breakthroughs. So times like there's, there's been different levels of kind of coming into that realization. Um, we didn't talk about that quote. I did. I don't know how, how it strike  [00:53:49] Jenn Schwamb: you. I don know what you're talking about. The, the card or something that you were talking about. [00:53:54] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. It showed up like in the mail or something like maybe as part of like mm-hmm. But how, how does that strike you in terms of has this, has this process brought you spiritual breakthrough in at various times?  [00:54:07] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, I think so. I think certainly at various times, I mean, yeah. Where again, I feel like I'm just repeating myself and saying the same thing in maybe slightly different ways. [00:54:18] Jesse Schwamb: That's what Tony and I do. It's about jam.  [00:54:18] Jenn Schwamb: Is that what I'm missing on the podcast most is you guys just saying the same thing over and over again?  [00:54:22] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  [00:54:22] Jenn Schwamb: Um, you know, it's just taught me that, um, I guess it's just like, I'm trying to think of how I wanna say it. Just, I've learned, I feel like the same thing over and over again where it's like you, you forget because you start to feel better, right? And then you don't feel good again, and you're like, oh, that's right. You know, and that you just, it's been a good reminder to have that, those conversations with God about, like, he gets it. I'm not talking to somebody that does not understand what suffering is, what that feels like, how hard things are, um, that he gets it and that he. Only wants what is good for me, even when it, the thing I'm dealing with doesn't feel like it's good for me.  [00:55:06] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:55:07] Jenn Schwamb: But I know that it is because he's allowing it. [00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:55:11] Jenn Schwamb: So it has to be  [00:55:12] Jesse Schwamb: that preaches. Amen. I don't think there's any other better place to stop than there. Thanks for being willing to talk about this. I know it's a strange thing. It's a hard thing, but I, I think there's so many people that we blessed and encouraged by what you've shared, and I think that we're just gonna have to have you as a regular guest on the podcast. Now we don't talk about that. Don't think people want talk about this stuff.  [00:55:35] Jenn Schwamb: Sorry, everybody, that this was the first, my first appearance. 10 years. Let's talk about endometriosis.  [00:55:42] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned on this episode of the Reform Brotherhood? Well, we've learned that Endo is definitely proof that the fall is real and that sin is in the world and in our bodies. But I think you've also taught us. That there is so much within all of our suffering that God gives to us, to steward, and I really love that idea of picking up our stewardship and not just saving our stewardship for our blessings, but perhaps more so if Romans 8 28 is for real. I mean, if we actually believe that in our places of most profound disappointment and pain and discomfort, that all things, all the things, everything and all the things to repeat myself, work for good, for those who are called according to God's purpose and love him, then why should we not say that we should steward all the things as well. So thanks, Jen.  [00:56:40] Jenn Schwamb: You're welcome  [00:56:40] Jesse Schwamb: for coming on this podcast,  Jesse.  [00:56:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're just gonna back up the mics and go about our day as if this ever  [00:56:46] Jenn Schwamb: happens. If nothing happens. This is super weird. Write in about what you want, Jesse and I have talk about next that isn't so serious  [00:56:54] Jesse Schwamb: and he just totally took over the podcast right there. [00:56:56] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:56:57] Jesse Schwamb: That was pretty well done. I love it. You're, you're a professional already, so you heard it from Jen. Loved ones. If you'd like to have her back on, you know how to find us. The best way to find us is to go to T Me slash Reform Brotherhood. That is a link that you can put into any browser, t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood. It will take you to a Telegram Link. Telegram is a messaging app. You use Telegram?  [00:57:19] Jenn Schwamb: I do use Telegram.  [00:57:20] Jesse Schwamb: Are you in the Reform Brotherhood Telegram group?  [00:57:22] Jenn Schwamb: No, I'm not. I think I only recently learned that you had one and I was like, why?  [00:57:29] Jesse Schwamb: What?  [00:57:30] Jenn Schwamb: Who's in that?  [00:57:31] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I'm so glad you asked. It's like you're setting me out. Why? Because it's an amazing little corner of the internet where people who are listening to the podcast and love the Lord Jesus Christ come together to interact, to hang out. To share information with each other, to share memes, and there's like taste tests happening in there. I mean, you're missing out all kinds of stuff. [00:57:48] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, well, I do love a taste  [00:57:49] Jesse Schwamb: test. Yes,  [00:57:50] Jenn Schwamb: we do those at work.  [00:57:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:57:51] Jenn Schwamb: Often. But I'm not joining your group.  [00:57:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, you do need to say that.  [00:57:56] Jenn Schwamb: Sorry,  [00:57:57] Jesse Schwamb: while we're recording,  [00:57:57] Jenn Schwamb: I mean, I'll definitely join it. Just send Jesse your telegram questions.  [00:58:04] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I'm happy to access the go between  [00:58:05] Jenn Schwamb: for me if you want to do. Taste has something  [00:58:08] Jesse Schwamb: in addition. I want to say thank you. I know Jen does too, for everybody who listens, who gives financial aid to make the podcast possible. That's why this little makeshift kitchen recording studio happened and why we could get Jen on and why her voice sounds so MOUs and so good. It's because people give a little bit to make sure that a lot happens so that it gets posted and published and processed and all that good stuff. It does cost money to keep it going, and thank you so much for joining us. If you want to join in on that, you can just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood. So that's it. I'm gonna put you on the spot one last time. Is there any, any famous last words you wanna say? For what? About anything? Oh, this is your chance? Oh, no. After all this time, is there anything, is there a message you wanna give to Tony?  [00:58:53] Jenn Schwamb: Is there a message I wanna give to  [00:58:54] Jesse Schwamb: Tony? Tony, he's, hes gonna specifically,  [00:58:56] Jenn Schwamb: he's gonna,  [00:58:56] Jesse Schwamb: he's gonna process this.  [00:58:57] Jenn Schwamb: No, I don't have a message that I wanna give to Tony. I'll give a message to your entire audience, which is, you all should give Jesse a hard time about the number of classic movies that he has not seen. This  [00:59:07] Jesse Schwamb: seems  [00:59:07] Jenn Schwamb: like, 'cause that has been a topic of conversation recently. So why don't you light up his telegram with asking him why he hasn't seen movies like Forrest Gump  [00:59:18] Jesse Schwamb: Never  [00:59:18] Jenn Schwamb: Seen Or The Mighty Ducks.  [00:59:19] Jesse Schwamb: Never  [00:59:20] Jenn Schwamb: Well, or the Ghost. Well, you've seen Mighty Ducks now because I made you watch it.  [00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:59:23] Jenn Schwamb: And can we  [00:59:23] Jesse Schwamb: just talk about how. I or  [00:59:25] Jenn Schwamb: Ghostbusters  [00:59:26] Jesse Schwamb: didn't realize, I've never seen it. Ha. I did not enjoy the My Ducks as much because the sheer number of penalties that are not called  [00:59:34] Jenn Schwamb: by the rest during That's true. Jesse. The entire movie while I was making him watch, it was just telling me about why that couldn't happen. That would never happen. That's not allowed. And I was actually waiting for Keenan Thompson to show up because I thought he was in the Mighty Ducks, but he was in D two, which we then also watched. I was just waiting for Keenan.  [00:59:51] Jesse Schwamb: Not to mention it's just nonsensical. I don't understand how it went from like it's such a  [00:59:55] Jenn Schwamb: good movie. [00:59:55] Jesse Schwamb: No, but it went from Peewee hockey to like the national, like you teen battling  [01:00:00] Jenn Schwamb: Iceland.  [01:00:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. And then I, I didn't see the third one. Did you watch it? One?  [01:00:04] Jenn Schwamb: We didn't watch it yet. Should we watch that after this it yet? Yeah. I have to watch that. It's on the Disney Plus watch list. And you haven't seen Sandlot? No. It's a baseball movie.  [01:00:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But  [01:00:15] Jenn Schwamb: there's a whole list of movies listeners that Jazzy Hass not seen. And I don't know why  [01:00:19] Jesse Schwamb: I've seen all the Star Wars movies. Do we need to, we  [01:00:22] Jenn Schwamb: haven't seen all those  [01:00:22] Jesse Schwamb: Explore the Rings.  [01:00:23] Jenn Schwamb: Yep. Nobody cares about  [01:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: about those. Do you need, see, have you seen Lord of the Rings  [01:00:26] Jenn Schwamb: a long time ago? [01:00:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Now this is just turning into a conversation.  [01:00:30] Jenn Schwamb: This is just, we don't need, is this the podcast you all want? Is this what you're waiting for? I'm just saying write into Telegram about the movies that Jesse should definitely see and he'll let you know whether he's seen them and I'll make 'em watch them. [01:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Well, you'd have to join the Telegram to know.  [01:00:46] Jenn Schwamb: No, well, all Tony will tell me.  [01:00:49] Jesse Schwamb: That is, that is true. Well, I'm so glad we finally got to this point because after, this is the encouragement, apparently everybody was looking forward. At least I was. So, I'm so glad you finally joined us. Let's not go another 10 years though, without, well,  [01:01:05] Jenn Schwamb: we'll see. [01:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Without having gone the really,  [01:01:07] Jenn Schwamb: oh, we'll see what I don't, I think people are gonna listen to this and be like, please don't have her back ever again.  [01:01:12] Jesse Schwamb: Well, on that note, honor everyone  [01:01:15] Jenn Schwamb: love the brotherhood or sisterhood. 

In this powerful solo episode, Jesse Schwamb brings Matthew 18 to a close by unpacking Jesus's parable of the unforgiving servant. As Tony Arsenal begins a well-deserved sabbatical after a decade of faithful podcasting, Jesse explores the radical nature of kingdom forgiveness and its role as evidence—not grounds—of our justification. Drawing on Reformed theology and Puritan wisdom, he demonstrates how the immeasurable debt we owed God should revolutionize how we forgive others. This episode challenges listeners to examine their hearts for harbored bitterness and calls them to embrace forgiveness as the family likeness of those adopted by grace. A must-listen for anyone wrestling with the difficult work of forgiving from the heart. Key Takeaways Forgiveness is evidence of salvation, not its grounds - We do not forgive to become forgiven; we forgive because we have been forgiven. This distinction is essential to Reformed theology and prevents works-righteousness. The parable contrasts debts to highlight gospel logic - The servant owed 10,000 talents (an unpayable sum representing our sin debt to God) versus 100 denarii (representing offenses against us). This jarring contrast is intentional and reveals the absurdity of unforgiveness. Unforgiveness is wickedness, not mere hypocrisy - Jesus calls the unforgiving servant "wicked," not just inconsistent. Refusing to forgive denies the logic of grace and demonstrates an unchanged heart. Sin is never purely private in its effects - Even personal unforgiveness damages the community of faith. The watching servants' grief shows how sin bleeds into fellowship and requires righteous intervention. True forgiveness must come "from the heart" - Jesus elevates the law beyond external compliance. Heart religion, not mere strategy or politeness, is the standard of kingdom forgiveness. Forgiveness as "resisting revenge" - Thomas Watson's definition helps us understand that forgiveness means actively fighting against revenge, seeking the offender's good, and praying for them. Regular self-examination prevents spiritual danger - We should daily audit our hearts, asking "Who am I refusing to forgive?" as part of ordinary Christian piety and confession. Key Concepts Forgiveness as Evidence, Not Grounds The Reformed tradition carefully distinguishes between the grounds of our justification (Christ's righteousness alone) and the evidence of genuine faith (good works, including forgiveness). Jesse emphasizes that Matthew 18 does not teach that we earn God's forgiveness by forgiving others—that would be works-righteousness. Instead, a forgiving spirit is the inevitable fruit of having truly received mercy. As Westminster Larger Catechism 194 teaches, we cannot satisfy our sin debt; forgiveness comes through Christ's satisfaction applied by faith. When the Holy Spirit regenerates a heart and opens our eyes to the magnitude of what we've been forgiven, that heart naturally extends forgiveness to others. The warning at the end of the parable isn't threatening to unjustify the justified, but revealing that persistent, unrepentant unforgiveness indicates a heart that never truly embraced mercy in the first place. The Radical Disproportion Reveals Gospel Logic The numbers in Jesus's parable aren't arbitrary—they're shocking. Ten thousand talents was an astronomical sum, roughly equivalent to 200,000 years of wages for a common laborer. It was literally unpayable. By contrast, 100 denarii was about four months' wages—significant but manageable. This jarring disproportion forces us to see our sin debt to God versus others' debts to us in proper perspective. Jesse notes that this is "the logic of grace"—grace received creates a new "ought." The servant's wickedness isn't just in being ungrateful; it's in fundamentally misunderstanding what happened to him. He treated his forgiveness as a transaction cleared rather than as a display of astonishing, undeserved mercy. When we truly grasp the immeasurable nature of our forgiveness in Christ, human offenses shrink. Nothing softens resentment like fresh astonishment at mercy. Forgiveness and Community Toxicity Jesse makes the important observation that the fellow servants in the parable grieve and report the unforgiving servant's actions to the king. This isn't tattling—it's recognizing that unforgiveness damages the entire fellowship. Sin between believers is never purely private in its effects. It bleeds into relationships, worship, witness, and unity. The Reformed understanding of the church as a covenant community means we're interconnected; one member's unrepentant sin affects the whole body. This is why church discipline exists and why Matthew 18 begins with instructions for confronting sin. The community of faith should be marked by astonished mercy, and when one member harbors bitterness or refuses reconciliation, it introduces toxicity that grieves the Spirit and hinders the church's mission. Forgiveness, then, isn't just personal virtue—it's essential to the health and witness of Christ's body. Memorable Quotes "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. It's not even one thing, it's this whole process... it's about this whole process of a king who wished to settle these accounts with his slaves." "Forgiveness from the heart is a spirit-wrought mark of those who are truly pardoned. This is exactly the kind of evidence, not ground—it's evidence of reasoning that the Reformed tradition uses." "The King's free pardon creates a people who forgive from the heart. We don't have to manufacture it. We don't have to pull ourselves up by our spiritual bootstraps and try to be the kind of forgiving people that we think we ought to be. We are the beneficiaries of a King who has pardoned us."

In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb continue their journey through Matthew 18 by examining the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant. Building on their previous discussion of church discipline and reconciliation, the hosts explore how this parable reveals the shocking nature of divine forgiveness and what it means to live as forgiven people in the kingdom of God. Through careful exegesis and systematic theological reflection, they unpack the staggering contrast between the infinite debt we owe God and our comparatively minor grievances against one another. This conversation challenges listeners to examine whether their approach to forgiveness reflects genuine heart transformation or merely external compliance, ultimately pointing to the free justification that comes through Christ alone. Key Takeaways Context is crucial for understanding parables - The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant cannot be properly understood apart from the preceding discourse on church discipline, humility, and pursuing the straying in Matthew 18. The 10,000 talents represents an infinite, unpayable debt - This astronomical sum (equivalent to 200,000 years of wages) symbolizes the magnitude of our sin debt before God—a liability so vast it can never be repaid through human effort. The servant asks for time, not mercy - This reveals the natural human instinct to seek self-salvation through legalistic means rather than recognizing our complete inability to satisfy divine justice. God's forgiveness doesn't diminish Him - Unlike human forgiveness which requires absorbing a cost, God's infinite resources mean He can freely forgive without being harmed or changed by our sin. Kingdom forgiveness is habitual, not sporadic - Jesus' answer of "seventy-seven times" establishes that citizens of God's kingdom are characterized by a settled posture of forgiveness, not calculated limits. The unforgiving servant represents the unregenerate heart - His response to being forgiven reveals he never truly received or understood the king's mercy, demonstrating that forgiven people naturally become forgiving people. We don't forgive to be forgiven; we forgive because we've been forgiven - This parable illustrates the Protestant understanding of the "practical syllogism"—holy living evidences salvation but doesn't earn it. Key Themes The Impossibility of Self-Salvation The servant's request for "more time" to repay his debt exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of both the magnitude of his obligation and the nature of salvation. When the servant says "I will pay you everything," he demonstrates a staggering level of self-delusion—he genuinely believes he can somehow accumulate 200,000 years worth of wages. This mirrors the natural human tendency toward works-righteousness, where we imagine that with the right formula, enough time, or sufficient effort, we can restore ourselves to God's favor. Like Martin Luther's desperate bargaining on the road to Erfurt ("Save me and I'll become a monk"), fallen humanity consistently underestimates the severity of sin and overestimates our capacity for moral restoration. The parable exposes this thinking as not merely mistaken but absurd—revealing that our spiritual insolvency is so complete that only divine intervention through free justification can address it. God's Ability to Absorb the Cost of Forgiveness A critical theological insight from this parable concerns God's capacity to forgive without being diminished. The king's ability to casually dismiss such an enormous debt reveals his extraordinary wealth—he possesses resources so abundant that forgiving this impossible sum doesn't threaten his solvency. This maps directly onto the doctrine of divine impassibility and God's self-sufficiency. When we sin against God, we don't injure Him or reduce His glory; therefore, His forgiveness doesn't require Him to recover something He's lost. This stands in stark contrast to Roman Catholic theology, which requires meritorious exchange and suggests God somehow benefits from our good works. The Reformed understanding, illustrated perfectly in this parable, is that God forgives from a position of infinite sufficiency—His mercy flows from abundance, not need. As Isaiah 55 teaches, His thoughts and ways are higher than ours precisely because this kind of lavish, free forgiveness is so otherworldly that we can barely comprehend it. The Fruit Test of Genuine Conversion The shocking reversal at the parable's conclusion—where the forgiven servant brutally demands repayment of a tiny debt—reveals that his initial pleading was not genuine repentance but self-preservation. His actions expose that he never truly received or understood the king's mercy, making him a picture of the unregenerate heart. This serves as a sobering warning that external religious behavior can mask an unchanged heart. The parable teaches that forgiven people naturally become forgiving people—not perfectly, but characteristically. This reflects the Reformed doctrine of the "practical syllogism," where we increase our assurance of salvation by examining the fruit of sanctification in our lives. Habitual unwillingness to extend forgiveness, especially when we claim to have received divine forgiveness, calls into question whether we've genuinely experienced God's transforming grace. The kingdom of heaven creates a community built on "astonished mercy"—people so overwhelmed by what they've been forgiven that extending forgiveness to others becomes their settled disposition. Memorable Quotes "It is good to waste a little time every day... just appreciate and stop for a second, even if it's in like just this mundane task." - Jesse Schwamb "Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing... but being a forgiving person is not how you become a forgiven person. It's what it looks like to be a forgiven person." - Tony Arsenal "The servant asks for time, not mercy... and that's the logic of self-salvation: Give me a little space, let me know what I have to do, give me more time and I'll fix it." - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what I find interesting is something that you just brought up and I think we should tease out, which is there's a flawed plea and this diluted promise, I say that because the servant, asks for time and not mercy. Which I think is a helpful distinction. And then he tries to promise what he cannot perform. So that's like the logic of self salvation, which is, give me a little space. Let me know what I have to do. Give me more time and I'll fix it. And I think the critical observation is the servant's words expose that. I don't think he understands the nature of his debt. He underestimates what he owes. He asks for the wrong thing, that's exactly what we do. We wanna know how we can fix it instead of understanding that it's unfixable, that only God himself can again be just and justifier through his son.  [00:01:01] Welcome and Matthew 18 Setup [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 482 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:09] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:14] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So it turns out, not surprisingly, that Jesus is giving us an absolute masterclass in Matthew 18, and I think everybody, if they're just jumping in now, like you gotta go back and listen to some of these other episodes because I think we jumped into Matthew 18 thinking. We talk a little bit about this community life discourse that Jesus brings to us. He talks about humility in the first six verses. Then he gets into the seriousness of sin, the pursuing, the straying, the church discipline reconciliation. That's where it gets that famous passage about wherever two or three gathered, and we promised we wouldn't go there, and then we exactly went there in that last episode together. And then. Then I think there's still more left. There's this culmination where Peter asks a question, and it's not random. It's this natural follow up to everything that Jesus has said in this little partition that's Matthew 18, the call to gain your brother through patient pursuit and restoration, and it all comes to a head. So I say all of that. It is true pro gamina because. I think we've gotta appreciate that. That's where we're going in this conversation, but we're going there for a reason because the path has already been laid out for us. It's not just an isolated parable that we're getting to on this particular episode. It's really embedded in all of this stuff. Yeah, there's all this drama, there's all this dialogue, there's all this subtext, and Jesus is gonna give us a parallel to round it or parable to round it all out.  [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:02:42] Parables Need Context [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: I think what I'm learning as we work our way through these, um, and I've commented on this before, that I love when we start on these series because it feels like we have, you know, we have like some preliminary conversations when we're figuring out what we wanna do and we have like an idea roughly of where we think we're gonna go. And then I always end up learning or latching onto something, or a theme kind of organically develops either. Like explicitly on this, on the podcast are just sort of in my mind as, as I'm preparing and what I'm. Impressed by, and I think this is one of those things like I always had in the back of my head when I would think about the parables. Um, but what's really coming to the forefront, especially in these last couple episodes, is how much these parables exist in context.  [00:03:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:03:29] Tony Arsenal: I think a lot of times parables get taught as like these sort of timeless, abstract, allegorical. Teaching truths that stand on their own completely absent from anything else. And there's obviously, there's certain elements of each parable that is rooted in a timeless truth and can, can stand on its own. But more so these parables are all coming. Christ is teaching the people in front of him something. Through the parable that's related to the context they're in. So I'm excited, um, to keep exploring that through the rest of the parable series. But then especially, I think it's gonna be great. I think this conversation's gonna be great tonight because it really is gonna open up. I think a lot of what we were seeing in the last one carries on into this, uh, into this parable in ways that I hadn't anticipated. So it's gonna be good.  [00:04:14] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna. It's gonna be real good. Yeah.  [00:04:16] The One With Unforgiving Servant [00:04:16] Jesse Schwamb: I realized that maybe we missed an opportunity with this whole series. I was recalling that famously, sometimes titles have really focused on, again, like what, what explicitly was going on in a particular like small conversation or episode. So, for instance, I think I liked Sherlock Holmes. It was always like the adventure of Sherlock Holmes and the Scarlet Thread, or the hundred Oscar bills. Right? And then also maybe equally famously. Not quite with the same prestige that sitcom series friends titled everything. Like the one with the  [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: one with, yeah.  [00:04:46] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. So if you're wanna use that as your rubric for today, then this is the one with the unforgiving servant. So that's what we're gonna be getting to in Matthew 18. Yes. Is 18 starting in verse 21? You can go hang out there just ahead of us, because for a second we gotta talk.  [00:05:02] Affirmation Pour Over Coffee [00:05:02] Jesse Schwamb: Affirmations. Denials, we didn't forget. We never forget.  [00:05:06] Tony Arsenal: We never forget.  [00:05:06] Jesse Schwamb: We never forget. So, Tony, are you affirming or denying against,  [00:05:10] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. It's a, a pretty straightforward, uh, let's do it. Affirmation. Um, I, uh, feel like maybe I'm way behind the, the curve or the timeline. I don't know. Like, I'm way late to the show here. Um, I just recently, uh, like today it arrived from Amazon and I made my first cup. Of like traditional pour over coffee. Oh, nice. Um, which, you know, I, I was a drip coffee person for a while before like Keurigs were a thing. And then we've had a Keurig for many years and we're trying to save some money and, and cut some costs. Um, and Keurigs are nice. They're super convenient and there was certainly a season in life where that convenience was, was. I suppose I couldn't say it was a necessary convenience. 'cause then it's not a convenience, but it was a convenience that was worth the financial output that it took. Um, you know, when you've got kids and you're all of a sudden you're up at like three in the morning to not have to stumble around and wash a filter out and all that junk, but. But we're not in that phase right now. We're trying to save a little bit of money. So we kind of said like, should we do a drip coffee or should we just go pour over? I did my first pour over and I like immediately could tell the difference in the flavor and the way that the, the coffee tasted. Um, takes longer. But there's kind of a, there's sort of like a,  [00:06:25] Jesse Schwamb: there's a joy in that.  [00:06:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, there's like a joy and like a zen moment. I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning when I wake up of like actually like. Starting. One of the things I've heard about Drip, about pour over coffee is there's almost like a ritual element to it. Yes. Of brewing your coffee and getting it right and taking the time to do it. So I'm just affirming, uh, pour over coffee. Uh, we got like a relatively inexpensive, I think it was like a $30, $35 kit on Amazon that has everything you need. It's got like a metal filter. Um, so you don't have to buy filter paper, I guess the metal filters. Yes. Have more of the oil makes its way into the coffee. So it has like a, a richer flavor than when you use the paper. I don't, I'm kind of not a coffee snob. I don't, I wouldn't be able to tell a difference probably, but, um, but yeah, so I'm affirming pour over coffee. It was delicious. Uh, I made way too much of it. Uh, it's gonna take a little while to figure out like what the proportions are and stuff, but that's kind of the fun of him, right? Yes. Like you have to figure out your own particular kit.  [00:07:22] Jesse Schwamb: It is, it seems to me like, and we have pour for coffee as well. Actually, I just made something the other day and was thinking about how bespoke a process it is and how if you go online or use the AI as super fun for this and you ask it like the best recipe, everybody's got their high conviction. Yeah. On how much coffee. The proportions of coffee and water, the temperature, the swirling, I dunno if you have a gooseneck kettle for this whole purpose. It is a super fun process, but it was striking me that I think like what's Samsung and Google phones are to the mobile world. So also is Pourer coffee because it's like this pilot, customized, do what you want. Kind of process. And I have an iPhone and I love it. There's nothing wrong with that, and that's maybe like the Curee or the Nespresso or whatever you have, but there is something fun about being able to customize the entire process. Yeah. And basically do whatever you want. I also, it's funny you bring this up because I was just reading something about Japanese, it ceremonies, I don't know. The internet happened to me and I got in this rabbit hole and. They were talking about how it's a process and how like Americans struggle with that because they sense that they're like, I, I want the drink. I don't care about the ritual. And this person was saying it is good to waste a little time every day. [00:08:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:08:38] Jesse Schwamb: And I think what they meant by that is exactly what you're saying is like just do appreciate and stop for a second, even if it's in like just this mundane task. To appreciate that it takes a little time. It's okay to wait and to let there be a kind of meditation and for us, like a more productive one while you're doing this thing. Yeah. Pour of a coffee is a great way to do that. I mean, it takes like, what, like maybe three when I do it, like three minutes. 'cause I have a timer. I said and we, I tried. I try to let it bloom. There's also, blooming is fun. Like how many things do you get to let bloom?  [00:09:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:09:05] Jesse Schwamb: Like there's a whole process. It's, but it's fun. You're right.  [00:09:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and you know, like. You buy a pour over coffee kit and like you, when you look on Amazon, like there are some that are very utilitarian looking. Yes. Like they're very almost industrial. Um, most of them look like you're brewing a magic potion. Like it's a, it's like a glass, like beaker and it has, the one we have has like a cork collar, so you can grab it and not burn your hands. It's like tied with a leather strip and it's like. It's kind of fun to have this and like you do, like you have to pour it a certain way and Right. I'm sure the coffee would taste fine if I just dumped the water in and didn't care about it. But, um, there is a whole process and I, I think, I think you're right. I like that phrase, like it's, it's a good thing to waste a little bit of time, and whether that's on like this or whether it's on a hobby that you're doing or even just like. Even if you have a Keurig, right? Even if you have a Keurig, just stand there and wait for it. Right? Like it's hard to do that, especially with as busy as our lives are. And I know for me it's often at like four 30 in the morning and I'm like, I've got, if on a good day, I have an hour and a half before the kids get up and I gotta make every minute count. But I think there's something in that idea that like. The, the minutes of waiting and just being peaceful and, and just sort of stopping those minutes count too. Like we agreed. We need to get away from thinking about those minutes as though they don't count. So yes. Um, affirming pour over coffee. It was delicious. The process is fun. Um, again, I feel like. I mean, I'm 43 years old. I feel like I, I probably should have done this at some point earlier in my life. Um, I texted my wife with a picture of it. She was out, um, she was out doing some shopping while I was brewing the first cup, and I texted her, I think, I think we're hipsters now. I'm not sure.  [00:10:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. That's like classic on the hipster card. You gotta, and it's not just that, it's, you show it and it's like you, then you have the debate about how you make yours. Yeah. Like once you do the ratio of gram's water to coffee.  [00:11:06] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I just, I just did whatever Google Gemini told me to do. I think it was like seven and a half  [00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: if you want. Have a fun, fun time. And again, we're speaking about time and it's lack of our lack of ability to really harness it really, because there's so much going on. But please. Next time we have a second go on YouTube and search for this because there's so many amazing, some of them are really good, uh, but everybody has their own recipe and I keep trying different ones and seeing what they taste like. And my palate is probably not refined enough to differentiate between most of them. [00:11:37] Tony Arsenal: I feel like, uh, if you think theology fights are wild, that this is probably a whole different frontier. Yes. Of, of not that, Theo, this is gonna sound weird, but like, of just dumb things to fight over. Right? Theology is not a dumb thing to fight over. Like it's important for us to sometimes even do a little bit of combat over a, a theological error or something like that. But this is probably a whole different level of like, yeah, it's fine. However you want your copy to taste. It's totally fine. Yeah. There's no moral element involved in how you brew your, your pour over coffee, but I bet you there are people out there who would say, I'm wrong, so.  [00:12:09] Jesse Schwamb: That's, and that's why this is the food equivalent of genealogies. [00:12:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's, that's great.  [00:12:15] Affirmation Generous Guitar Gift [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?  [00:12:18] Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna keep it positive. Go affirmation as well and keep it light. I hope. Let me explain the situation briefly and then you'll just know the affirmation at the end 'cause it's more fun that way. Uh, I was at a practice for. Worship music this past week and blessed again just by our church and the number of lovely musicians that we have. And actually, one of the things I do appreciate is that we're always trying to work ourselves out of a job, and that is we're trying to, especially recruit younger people into playing. We have people of all skill sets and abilities who are. Like really volitional about setting their hearts right on worship through music. And really the instrumentation comes alongside of that. And oftentimes it's secondary to that, of course. And so we have a couple of college students that are joining us while they're studying locally. And one of them in particular is, is playing guitar. And she plays quite well, but she's growing into that role of playing and it's a whole different challenge to play in this capacity. And so we, because we have a lot of people with a lot of instruments and experience, one of the other guitarists who is an older gentleman who is very experienced, he took on, he, this is also fantastic by the way. He took up playing the bass because we just need a bass. I mean, he was a guy who was like, I play guitar exceptionally well. I see there's a need. I don't know how to play bass. I could probably learn. I don't own a bass, but I'm gonna make all that happen. And he is just fantastic. And so it turns out that because this young woman, she had a nice guitar or reasonable guitar, beginner guitar. It was having some problems with our sound system, so. On Thursday, he brought another guitar for her to play and she didn't know he was gonna do that. And so he brought this very nice guitar, like multiple. I don't wanna get into exactly pricing, at least from what I discerned, but if you know, you know, it's a breed love guitar. So this is, this is a very nice guitar. So he said, I just want you to be able to play it like, and have something to play here that, and see what you think and how it sounds in the system. So she played it. And I know he was just taking such great joy in seeing that, um, you know, we mixed it properly. It has EQ on it. So we set the whole thing up and she's like, wow, it feels very nice. Like, I really appreciate playing it. So at the end of course, he turns to her and says like, how, what do you think? How does it sound? How do you, how does it feel? And she said, it feels really nice. And he says to her, take it home. It's yours. [00:14:28] Tony Arsenal: Wow.  [00:14:29] Jesse Schwamb: And you know, he says to her, I know that you love to worship the Lord in music. Use this to do that and to lead yourself in others. And so the affirmation is. I don't know how often we get to just be witnesses to some kind of great private generosity. And the only reason I was, I was witness to it is because I, in the arrangement, on the stage we were practicing, I was just between the two of them. So I felt like a little awkward, like this whole moment was happening and I was like just trying to awkwardly like moonwalk my way back out of that. So like they could just have this moment, but instead I got to witness it. So I. I don't know what it would look like for each of us to do something like that. Not that necessarily the size of the gift in this case, but the thoughtfulness of it was exceptional. It was just a beauty to behold the family of God supporting and loving one another in a way, and this was no doubt. A sacrifice for him. I just couldn't, I said to him afterwards, I was like, that was incredible. And uh, you know, he of course is very humble about the whole thing and was wanting to support musicians, but it's more than that. Of course, this was about gifting someone a tool to help them lead and to worship God more passionately. And I just have been thinking about that ever since. Like, well, how can I do that for others? What, what are some spaces where I can do that, where it doesn't necessarily cost maybe even anything except my. Unwillingness to seek that out. So  [00:15:49] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: if you see it, acknowledge it and hopefully we get to see it from time to time, but maybe we can be also the people that do it.  [00:15:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, that, that kind of gift, the value, like the monetary value is almost not relevant. [00:16:01] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:16:01] Tony Arsenal: And like a guitar, this is gonna be super like woo woo, but like. Anyone who plays guitar and has owned a guitar knows that like a guitar is kind of like a personal thing. Yes. You can have the most generic beater, like hundred dollar Epiphone acoustic guitar, and that's still your guitar. And to just give that away to someone is actually kind of like a, it's sort of like a weird, intimate feeling. Um, and I think there are probably lots of things like that where we have a tool that is part of our craft, part of our trade, whatever it might be. Um, you know, like maybe you're a carpenter and you've just got your favorite. Here's, here's a dumb example. I, I started working at the hospital as a scheduling secretary in February of 2015, so I'm, I'm just past 11 years now, and there was this stapler at my desk when I first started. And, uh, I've kept that stapler with me through, through 11 years in like several different job transitions in several different departments. It's the only thing that I've brought with me, and it's funny because I used to share an office with a nurse. And I went on vacation. When I came back, um, she had swapped my stapler for another stapler of the exact same model stapler, like it was an identical stapler. And I could tell the difference in the waiting and the feel of the stapler. Um, like that, that kind of thing. Although, like I struggled to think how I might gift that stapler to someone in, in the same meaningful fashion, but like right. There are trade, there are tools of your trade and tools of your craft that you use to serve the Lord in particular ways. And I think a musical instrument is like an obvious example, but maybe you're a carpenter and you have a favorite hammer that just, it feels right in your hand, it's the right weight, it's the right size, um, and someone else needs a good hammer. Like I think there are ways. Similar kinds of things that could happen. And that's a really lovely, thoughtful gift. And it's a way that you can honor the Lord. Yes. Like it's not, it's not just being nice. It's a way that you can sort of pass on that blessing that God has given you in that, in that physical implement to someone else to make use of it. Um, and I can tell you I've been the recipient of similar kinds of gifts. [00:18:09] Jesse Schwamb: Me too.  [00:18:10] Tony Arsenal: I don't have anyone that's given me like a guitar. But, um, there's been times where I've, I've, uh, like I have a set of commentaries that was gifted to me by someone who, they were well loved, well used commentaries, and they were just at a point in their, their academic career that they just weren't using them anymore. And they gifted them to me. And I'll tell you like. I have never read through those in, in their entirety, but every time that I go to reference them, there's a warm spot in my heart when I think about what these commentaries have contributed to the kingdom in terms of that person's ministry. And then now my ministry, my my preaching Pul supply ministry, this podcast. Um, so that's a special gift. That's a cool story. And I think. Your exhortation is great for us to think about ways we can, we can do that. I suppose there's some ways we've done that as a podcast. Like we've helped other podcast start. True. We've, I mean there's been equipment that we've grown out of, that we've passed on to other people who are getting started. Um, you know, so I think there's lots of ways we can think about how that works and how we do.  [00:19:09] Jesse Schwamb: And we ourselves, of course, are ongoing beneficiaries of that kind of love.  [00:19:13] Patreon and Audio Update [00:19:13] Jesse Schwamb: And this sounds like it's a plug that I intended, but I didn't when I started the whole affirmation. And that is we have people that give to the podcast through patreon.com. [00:19:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:19:22] Jesse Schwamb: So after they've satisfied all of their other responsibilities, they have decided, you know what? The podcast, the conversations have blessed me in some way, and I wanna make sure that they keep going. And so. There's a place where people are giving even just little gifts, either one time or regularly. And it does keep things going, like, uh, this is all practical. Now. For instance, many of our listeners noticed that somehow you developed a lisp over like the last Yeah. Two episodes, which it turns out Tony is healthy and well, his like. Speech is fantastic. I I hear it. I've always heard it in this clear, crisp mo voice kind of way. And it turns out we tried to go with a cheaper solution that will remain unnamed.  [00:20:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:01] Jesse Schwamb: Um, and it turns out, for whatever reason, it, it  [00:20:06] Tony Arsenal: just wasn't gonna cut it. It  [00:20:07] Jesse Schwamb: just didn't work. And so we were trying to save a little bit there. But I'm so grateful for those who, who along with us, help us to cover these costs so that we could return to a solution that costs money. [00:20:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:18] Jesse Schwamb: But is actually better for sound quality and less distracting for people that want to listen to us talk. So that all happens because many have gone to patreon.com, back slash reform brotherhood and said, I'd like to contribute. So I see that generosity and I wanna say thank you.  [00:20:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:20:35] Reading the Parable [00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, we should probably get into the parable tonight.  [00:20:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, let's get into it.  [00:20:39] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna camp out tonight. Uh, we're we last, not last week because, uh, last week I was, uh, preaching and so, uh, you were, uh, the sermon from the, the church I was preaching, I was put into the feed, but the week before that. We were camping out in the first half of Matthew 18. We were talking about the parable of the lost sheep and how it is positioned differently in Matthew than it is in its parallel in Luke, and that that positioning in that context sort of shades the meaning and and changes how we think about what the parable means. We're gonna finish out the second half of chapter 18 here with the Parable of the Unforgiving Servants. And what I, what I think we're gonna find is actually like, in, in a similar way to how the Parable of the lost sheep and the Parable of the Lost Coin and the Parable of the Lost Sun all sort of stack up to be sort of like a mega parable. This parable continues the same themes, um, and in many ways is, is like an. A next level question on the theme that Christ is teaching regarding, uh, people, you know, coming to the faith, people who sin against each other, and how we should think about church discipline. This parable really kind of continues that line of thought, so I'll go ahead and start reading here in verse 21. We will go ahead and just read out to the very end of the, uh, end of the chapter here. So starting in verse 21, it says, then Peter came up and said to him, Lord, how often will my brother sin against me? And I forgive him as many as seven times. Jesus said to him, I do not say to you seven times, but 77 times. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wishes to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him 10,000 talents. Since he could not pay his master, ordered him to be sold with his wife and children and all that he had and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him half patience with me, and I'll pay you everything out of pity for him. The master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when the same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him and hundreds inari and seizing him. He began to choke him, saying, pay what you owe. So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, have patience with me and I will pay you. He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, you wicked servant. I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me and should not. You have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you. It is anger. His master delivered him to the jailer until he should pay all his debt. So also my Heavenly Father will do to every one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. [00:23:34] Peter's Forgiveness Question [00:23:34] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe I'm the only one, but Peter is my spirit animal. He just is because like, it's not just that the question he starts with is like brutally honest, but I find out brutally practical. Yeah, I know there's a lot been said about Peter. He, he gets a lot of shade about this idea of him trying to set like, what's this generous limit? How often should I forgive? But in some ways isn't the this, like the thing, if I were there, I'd be like, I'm thinking this too, which is, yeah, about how far, Lord, you know, how much, where, where do I be? When do I become the doormat? And so I have a sense, I think even in my own life, still don't want to quantify mercy. Actually, I know this to be the case. I could think of a situation in particular. Where I was just talking about with my wife, where I was essentially doing this same thing. And in reform terms, I think like this is of course like the sinful heart's instinct to convert obedience into some kind of manageable policy, and that's where I'm like, yeah, I hear this. Because if. Even quote unquote, like advanced disciples often want righteousness by measurement. Yeah. It's easier. It appeals to our human nature rather than righteousness by likeness to the father. And so it makes sense to me that after all this talk about discipline and about going after your brother, that I think honestly the logical thing is to say yes, but how far right? And that's like the whole setup for this thing.  [00:24:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there is a certain logic to. Peter's question, right? Yes. I I think you're right. Like we, we sort of bag on Peter to be like, what a dummy. Like, and, and I, I don't love, um, I don't love sort of the extrapolation that people make where they like, sort of like add that crisis, like exasperated by the apostles, right? There are certainly places in the scripture where it, it just straight out says like, crisis. It, it basically says like, crisis frustrated with his apostles and, and he expresses like. I was reading the other day where they're like, who brought him, who brought him bread to eat? Like, and, and or the one where they're like, beware the ye the yeast of the, uh, of the Pharisees. And they're like, oh, we forgot the bread. And he's like, I wasn't talking about bread you guys. Like, I don't, I don't actually get the sense that that's what's going on here. Like, I think this is a rational, logical question that Peter asks, right. Um, in many ways.  [00:25:50] Kingdom Forgiveness and Repentance [00:25:50] Tony Arsenal: He's actually like catching the drift of what Christ is getting at because the, the prevailing thought in, in sort of like the ancient world, forgiveness was not really something you offered, like there was offense and then the offense had to be repaid and Christ is presenting this sort of radical new way where like all that needs to happen for the offense to be resolved is actually just repentance. Like, it, it was not the norm. Peter isn't quite getting as far as Christ is pushing him yet, but he's not asking a dumb, selfish, stupid question. And I think we, we tend to sort of position Peter here as though he is, and I think the radical nature of this is that Christ answer is as many times it's, it's, he puts a number on it, but it's this number that has this symbolic value of like as many times as he repents. And I think when you go back to the church discipline passage that we just came out of. The, the question basically is like, how many times am I gonna get to step one before I can just skip to step two? And the answer is, as long as there is genuine repentance, reconciliation should move forward. Right? Um, now again, like. There are a lot of situations where rec, and I know the prevailing way of talking about this is like forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing, and they're, they're not. Um, but I also don't think reconciliation always means full restoration of a relationship as though nothing happened. And, and so I think this, this teaching that Christ is going into here. Is not only designed to sort of like answer Peter's question, but providentially, it actually continues to extend the lesson of the last parable that you continue to seek your brother and you continue to forgive them and rejoice over that forgiveness and over that rest restoration as long as repentance continues to occur. Um, now we don't need to get into it. But there are certainly times where a person might outwardly say like they're repentant of their sins and their behavior demonstrates they're not. That's not the scenario that Christ is addressing here when he is encouraging Peter to forgive 77 times. Right? He's not saying, just like you said, he's not saying you become a doormat and you just accept. For, and you accept repentance on face value despite evidence. To the contrary, he's saying that when there is genuine repentance, there is no limit to the number of times that you should forgive a person.  [00:28:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right on. It's not like Jesus is mouthing forgiveness here. Yeah, it's more of this emphasis, like you've said already, that gospel is creating a people who forgive habitually, not sporadically. And so forgiveness becomes, I think we said this before, like a settled posture because the believers live from this kind of idea. Settle the mercy. And so Jesus ties, and this is wild again, incredible, limitless. Forgiveness to the nature of the kingdom,  [00:28:43] Tony Arsenal: right?  [00:28:44] Jesse Schwamb: So the parable is not mainly about some kind of interpersonal etiquette here. It's about what it means to live under God's reign and in God's household. And that should be a demonstrative focus and emphasis in how we go about our lives because. What's practically applicable to all of us is that people are gonna hurt us. The same people will continue to hurt us, and we'll come back and seek some kinda reparation. We'll seek forgiveness. And Jesus says, like you said, extend it. There's this idea that there's this. Kind of almost in this like a comment upon the Lord's Prayer in that fifth petition. Like we ask forgiveness as we forgive, right? So then there's not like behavioral or modification here.  [00:29:21] Forgiven People Forgive [00:29:21] Jesse Schwamb: We're trying to perform in such a way, well, if we forgive, then we will be forgiven, and we get that twist. It's all the other way around in reverse, which is because of course we've been forgiven, therefore we ought to forgive freely, liberally, unreservedly, not sporadically, but all the time, every way, any way you can, right? So that's what leads then to this, all this hyperbole about. Debt, which again I love as an expression of what it means to incur sin, to be under the weight of sin, to be in, you know, rebellion against God. And so I love that that's where Jesus moves because like presumably there could have this, could have gone lots of different ways. There are lots of different metaphors. This is just one of several places where debt comes in the picture. And I know, I know it's your jam as well. Like I know that you love this in terms of how this like drama unfolds next. [00:30:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, this is a, this is a, um, I kind of alluded it to a last time, I won't get into specifics, but there's been a, a number of situations in my life, um, and Jesse knows which situation I'm, I'm thinking of most specifically, but a number of times that I've been in situations where, um, e either I see another person who is refusing, who, who claims the name of Christ, but is absolutely refusing to. To extend forgiveness except on sort of like really specific elaborate conditions.  [00:30:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:30:43] Tony Arsenal: Um, I, I am not entirely set on the fact that forgiveness can't have any sort of condition in terms of what, what is expected to demonstrate that repentance is genuine. I think there are times where, um, especially if sin is an ongoing, you know, a person's sins against you in the same way, many times I think it's fine to say like, well, repentance in this situation looks like a right. If a person is constantly talking about you behind your back and is gossiping about you, then repentance at a minimum is stopping that sin, right? For sure. At, at i, I would say in that situation, it might even look like that person needs to go. Take some steps to restore your good name in the, you know, in the people that they've slandered you against or slandered you with. [00:31:30] Kingdom Life and Debts [00:31:30] Tony Arsenal: Um, but the, the main point of this, and the reason I bring it up, is that this parable is, um, uh. It's connected to the previous parable with this church discipline passage in the middle. In that what we see here is a picture of, of the unforgiving servant is not just the unforgiving servant, he's the unforgiving servant. [00:31:55] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:31:55] Tony Arsenal: And I think that's really key is that this. This parable, right? We always want to pay attention to what the parable is compared to. And so this is the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wishes to settle accounts with a sermon. So yes, it's true that this tells us about what a. Forgiveness and reconciliation and what being forgiven and what that does if all of that's true and it's presented here, but this parable is really telling us what life in the kingdom of God looks like.  [00:32:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right on.  [00:32:27] Tony Arsenal: And what it looks like is not holding, not holding debts against someone in light of the fact that God has not held our debts against us and. I think you have to be careful when you teach this passage because it can very quickly become you earning forgiveness by being forgiving. Um, and it's actually like the, the exact opposite. Forgive being a forgiving person is not how you become a forgiven person. It's what it looks like to be a forgiven person. This is the classic Protestant kind of like, um, what's it called? The my brain is losing me. Uh, the practical syllogism, right?  [00:33:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:33:09] Tony Arsenal: You, you know, you're forgiven by the fact that you live, you're living a life of holiness. But it's not that, that life of holiness is somehow generating your forgiveness or causing it. It's, it's the opposite. The life of forgiveness, the life of being forgiven is driving this gracious disposition that should mark every Christian. So I think as we unpack this a little bit, we get through this. That's what we have to remember. Yes, there are practical on the street concrete things that we should do in light of this teaching, but ultimately this is teaching us about what it looks like to live as a forgiven person in the kingdom of heaven, not just some general principle of what it means to understand forgiveness or something like that. [00:33:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yeah. It's bearing that fruit. Again, this is all about the community hermeneutic, the community of the family of God, represented in the kingdom of God, and that's what.  [00:34:01] Sin as Infinite Liability [00:34:01] Jesse Schwamb: Propels us into this idea in verse 24, these 10,000 talents, this incredible debt, which is of course really hyperbole. Just pick the number that is impossible for repayment in your mind. It's meant to feel infinite, and it's a picture of our guilt before God's justice. And I mentioned this before, but I think this bears repeating. It's a real liability. Right. What we have here in this picture is not sin merely as mistake. We we're quick to talk about sin as missing the mark, and this is true of course. Sometimes though, with that, we can get the sense that the missing of the mark is kind of innocuous. It happens and it's suboptimal, and your life would be better otherwise, and it does wrong and hurt God, and we can embrace all those things without realizing that all of this missing the mark is creating a real liability. God has a claim over and above us for restitution of that because that's what his justice demands. And so here we have this explicit identification of sin as debt. It highlights this inevitable reckoning like you can debt, you have to deal with, you have to deal with it in some way or another. And  [00:35:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:35:05] Jesse Schwamb: so too, here we have these two different servants and they both have this irreconcilable debt, this real liability that's represented in the form of this king having a claim over them. [00:35:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think, um, you know, we've commented in the rest of the parables that there, the, one of the beauties, the beautiful things about a lot of these parables is there's so much systematic theology actually baked into them.  [00:35:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:35:30] Tony Arsenal: And one of the things, I don't think, um, because of the way translations work and because the translations are not, um, they're translating the words and not necessarily the concepts in direct ways, in, in this context, in this situation. Um. This is a picture of the, the sin debt that we have, but we lose the sight of the magnitude of it, right? So a talent was 20 years worth of wages for a worker in, in this era. Now that's 10,000 of those. So like the idea that you could spend 10,000 times 20 years worth of wages. Like, that's unreal. Like that's crazy. That's unreal. Um, I can't even imagine what that would look like to spend and to, to somehow go into debt 10,000 times, 20 years worth of wages. Um, and that's the point is that it's, it's painting this picture. I think sometimes we, this parable is taught and the comparison is primarily between the 10,000 talents, which is this, uh, like. Unimaginable vast quantity of money versus a hundred denari, which is not a small debt, but it's an imaginable debt. It's an understandable debt. That's the contrast most people, most people make when they're teaching this passage, but before you even get there. We've talked about how the parables sometimes have this element of like shock where like the, the, the people listening would be listening and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden there's something in the parable that's like, whoa, wait, a, like, slow down a second here. Like the idea that the younger son could ask for his inheritance and then the father would just give it to him. That's a shock element that would make the, the audience sit up and go. Something is a little different here. The shock element here is 20, it's, it's 20 times. 10,000 years worth of wages,  [00:37:27] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:37:27] Tony Arsenal: So there's so many elements of that. Like, first of all, how do you spend that much money? Second of all, who lets you go that far into debt? Right? And how did you even do it? Third, how did this king have, even a king ha wouldn't have that vast quantity of wealth. Um, this would be like all of a sudden, uh, like. Elon Musk has let me spend his entire, his entire net worth, and I've gone into debt in that. Um, it's this unimaginable situation, and this is a picture of the sin debt that we incur when we have sinned against God. And so the gravity of our sin. Is on full display here. The debt that we've incurred against the Holy God is not just, uh, it's not just a debt that we can't repay. It's a debt that is un repayable. This is supposed to be a picture of an infinite death. Yes. Or infinite debt. Right. There's, there's no real way, like the, the, the ancient world didn't really talk about infinite or infinity in the same way that we do. Like mathematically, that wasn't a common concept. This is supposed to be a picture of a debt that is so vast and so large that it is, it is beyond. Like beyond rational numbering.  [00:38:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:38:43] Tony Arsenal: That is the picture of the debt that we owe God when we are still in the midst of our sin. And so this, this person comes. There's a certain kind of like audacity that would, should actually be offensive to the king when he says like, I will pay everything. You're gonna pay everything. You're gonna pay 10,000 times, 20 years worth of wages.  [00:39:02] Jesse Schwamb: Right,  [00:39:03] Tony Arsenal: right. Like, yeah. Right,  [00:39:04] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:39:04] Tony Arsenal: That's, that's the audacity of this servant. Um, he wouldn't have been able to believe he was gonna do that. He's coming, throwing himself, hopefully, throwing himself on the mercy of this. Uh, king that something could be done to allow him to, to change his estate. It's not all that different than what we talked about with the son. In the parable of the, uh, lost son, where he is coming back to his father, he's expecting his request to be made. One of the servants is going to be granted with a positive, favorable answer. Right? But his concept of what he even. Could imagine to ask for is like too small. It's too, too narrow in scope, and it, it's not presuming on his, on God's mercy or the father's mercy, it's actually like undercutting what the, the father or in this case, the king is capable of in terms of mercy, which I think is something we miss a lot of times with this par. [00:39:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we certainly see that the servant's inabilities is total, or at least we're meant to see that. And of course that aligns with all the things you and I regularly talk about, the human inability to satisfy divine justice by works. That's what's on display here in this idea of the kingdom. And the scene, to me at least, is like courtroom economic. There's justice, which requires satisfaction. There's insolvency and judgment, and it happens beautifully in the context of this relationship where there's, there's debt, there's money, there's a claim over one. That must be satisfied. And while you were speaking, what really struck me is it's the king's right to claim it. And he does. Right? Right. He, he brings it forward and says like, here's the debt. I'm just reporting back to you the real liability that is before you. So how are we gonna settle this bad boy?  [00:40:42] Time Not Mercy [00:40:42] Jesse Schwamb: And what I find interesting is something that you just brought up and I think we should tease out, which is there's a, a flawed plea and this diluted promise, well, maybe I'm being right. Not very generous. You tell me. I say that because the servant, and I think this is what like test this loved ones. I think this is what the natural man does. What the servant does, he asks for time and not mercy. Yeah, which I think is a helpful distinction. And then he tries to promise what he cannot perform. So that's like the logic I think, of self salvation, which is, give me a little space. Let me know what I have to do. Give me more time and I'll fix it. And I think the critical observation is the servant's words expose that. I don't think he understands the nature of his debt. He underestimates what he owes. He asks for the wrong thing, right. That's exactly what we do. We wanna know how we can fix it instead of understanding that it's unfixable, that only God himself can again be just and justifier through his son. And so we have this amazingly, like off the reservation, missing the whole point adventures in Romans one, where instead the natural man is prone to like, well, give me the legalism that I need to make restitution on my own. And it's just impossible. So we're gonna see that that moves us, like you said, into compassion, into Mercy. But it absolutely floors me that this person says instead like, well, if you could just give me a little bit more time. I mean, I think there's like panic in that response. I think there's self-promotion in that response. I think there's wanting to, if this can be true in some way, well intentionally wanting to make it right, but to do so on their own. And it's just an adventure in missing the point.  [00:42:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think, um. What we learn, you know, spoiler alert. I guess what we learn by the end of this, uh, parable is that this unforgiving servant, uh, represents the un unregenerate person. Yes. Right. It's, it's, it's the person who never actually received the forgiveness that was extended to them. And I think we. We think that that punchline only comes at the end where the king throws him back into prison at the end and, and forces him to, to pay or, or keeps him in prison until the debt is paid, which of course, the, the underlying text is that the debt is never paid. Um, but really this is actually the beginning of that, of that implication.  [00:43:01] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  [00:43:01] Tony Arsenal: Right? He, he doesn't ask for forgiveness. He doesn't believe that the king is going to forgive him entirely. Um, he, he comes and he thinks he's going to pay off this unimaginable debt. Um, and again, there's a certain absurdity to these parables that is intentional. It's part of the teaching mechanism. Um, but he comes and he says, exactly as you're saying, gimme some time to pay this off. He doesn't, he doesn't think he's not gonna be able to do it. Right. I don't think he, um. I don't think he comes thinking he's gonna somehow trick the king by asking for time and then he's gonna like flee to another land, right? Like there's no implication of that. He thinks. By all indications, he thinks with a little bit more time, he's actually gonna scrape together 10,000 times, 20 years worth of labor. Right. He thinks that's gonna happen. And that is like when we come to the way that this is like the kingdom of heaven is when we, when we come to God saying like, just gimme a little time. Or gimme a little space or tell me what I need to do and I'll make it right. Um, you know, you think of like Luther on the road to, to wherever he was going. Like, um, you know, if, if, if you save me, I'll become a monk. Right. You know, Saint Anne's save me. I'll become a monk. Like we, we think that if we can just. Get the formula right, that somehow we're gonna be able to, to restore ourselves into God's graces. And so this is a picture of the Unregenerate man trying to flee the wrath of God somehow out coming out from underneath it by their own labor. And I. Again, like the absurdity of the, the, the servant's thought process here is exactly, uh, the absurdity of the person who thinks they're gonna somehow make up for their sin, debt against the holy God. It just is, it's just not real. And it's, it's a level of delusion that can only come, you know? Yes. Sin and our fallen estate comes with a certain kind of insanity that comes with it. Yes,  [00:44:55] Jesse Schwamb: that's right.  [00:44:55] Tony Arsenal: That we, we are. We're not human, but we're sort of corrupted subhuman. And our rationality, our ability to understand spiritual things is totally just, it's totally damaged. Um, so we couldn't even get to the right answer even if we wanted to.  [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so I think maybe one of the first.  [00:45:14] Pardon Not Payment Plan [00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: Several of the gasps from those listening would be in verse 27, where the king has this compassion on them. He exacts a pardon, but not a payment plan.  [00:45:23] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:45:24] Jesse Schwamb: And it really is an act of sheer mercy. Of course, it's rooted in the king's compassion. And I would say like in the categories again that we talk about, it resembles this concept of free justification. God's acquitting, the guilty by grace and not by installments. And again, I, I had to look it up because I knew it was somewhere, but I couldn't find it off the top of my head. But this connects to like the Westminster Larger catechism, which was the fifth petition. And I love this language. We're confessing that we cannot satisfy the dead and we ask God to acquit us through the obedience and satisfaction of Christ applied by faith. Right. That is phenomenally good news. In some ways, this is, I don't wanna say this is a problem for God, it's not, this is what he delights to do, but I hope people can hear me on this in that it's a problem in the sense that. If God is a compassionate God, if this king is truly compassionate, then he has to take care of this in some way, right? Like it is, it is a concern. It is legitimate quantity. If this is a real liability that must be dealt with. It's a bit like saying, there is this old saying in banking where something like if you owe the bank a hundred thousand dollars, that's your problem. If you own the bank, a hundred million problems, that's the bank's problem.  Yeah.  [00:46:30] Jesse Schwamb: And so here there's this massive weight. That must be dealt with. It can't just be like swept under the rug. So even behind this compassion, we know that the rest of scripture enumerates how that compassion takes place. It is free justification at the cost of God's one and only son applied to us again by faith as the confession gives us that language. And so this is. Shocking. Even that is shocking. And I think to your point, Tony, it's shocking because I do believe, like you're saying, that the audience would've picked up on this guy being off the mark and is saying, well, he's somehow getting granted. He asked for more time. That's ridiculous. Yeah. And he is gonna be given forgiveness instead. And so what's, what's going on? And I wanna point out, this led me to think about. Isaiah 55, and I'm embarrassed that I often read Isaiah 55 completely divorced from the context in which these very famous words appear, which is, this is the whole, my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways. My ways declares Yahweh, whereas the heavens are higher, higher than the earth. So are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts? And for somebody like me, I was like, I always appreciated like, listen, God is of course abundantly my intellectual superior in every conceivable way. I mean. Talk about an understatement, but he's just so brilliant. He works all things out for his glory, that the, the majesty and the creativeness of the world in which he spoke into existence proves that he's genius. And here's maybe everybody, you're ahead of me on this, but here's where that passage. Here's like the antecedent verses right before that. This is Isaiah 55, beginning verse six. Seek Yahweh. While he may be found, call upon him while he's near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return to Yahweh and he will have compassion on him. And to our God, he will abundantly pardon for my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways. My ways declares Yahweh, for as the heavens are higher than the earth. So are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts? The higher than your thoughts. So in other words. How do we know that God is like this, that his thoughts are heart? Because the sheer act of this kind of forgiveness is so otherworldly that we cannot comprehend it, that God is saying the proof of the pudding is in the eating here. Here's how you know I'm so different than you, and the way I think, and the way I act and the way that I know things is because this kind of forgiveness, which I offer to my people is so extraordinary and unbelievable. That you will not even be able to comprehend the essential first principle of what they mean, which is why we have to receive the instruction as it's set forth before us in this parable.  [00:49:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:49:08] God Can Absorb the Cost [00:49:08] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, um, we'll have to come back. We're not anywhere near finished with this. We're at the end of the time here, but talking one of, one of the things, um, that I think, you know, that, that passage in Isaiah, but this passage too, um. You cannot forgive a debt unless you have the. Capital to have that not sink you. Right.  [00:49:31] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: So if, if, you know, like that's part of why like banks and, you know, like the hospital like that I work at anywhere that is collecting fees and bills. Like they, they can't allow someone to go so far into debt that they will never recuperate. That. That's like, that's where it's like bad debt comes in like at some point. You just let it go and you just stop giving them money. But you don't, you can't get the money back, but you can't forgive a debt if you don't have the resources to survive forgiving that debt. Right. And I think where this plays into in term, again, this is like another systematic theology point that comes outta this parable. This king is apparently so fabulously wealthy and so fabulously, uh, rich in resources that he can just say, yeah. 10,000 times, 20 years worth of an, of an average labor. Like, don't worry about it. It's no big deal like that is, that has to be a king who is so fabulously wealthy, unimaginably so that that is not gonna hurt him. And this is where the, like the omnipotence and the, uh, the impassability of God becomes so important is that we have a God who is, is able to forgive us. Right? I don't have the passage right in front of me, but. There's a passage in job where it's basically like, if, if I was to, to do something righteous, what benefits is that to God? And if I was to sin against God, what does that hurt him? Right? Right. And like when we sin against God, it angers him. Um, there's not a change in his disposition. Uh, there, there, there might be a, a change in our experience of God. Um, because, you know, God in the presence of wrath is ex, I guess, is experienced differently than God. Or God in the presence of sin is experienced differently than God, absent sin. Um, so when we're forgiven, we're experiencing, we're still experiencing God. Um, God is still oriented towards us, but he's oriented towards us graciously versus oriented towards us, non graciously. That's not a change in God. That's a change in our status, a change that God renders in us. By applying Christ to us and Christ's benefits to us, but when we sin against God, it doesn't hurt him. It doesn't change him. It doesn't somehow make him less and, and that's a glorious thing. Because if it did somehow make him less right. Um, I'm a big fan of Anselm and I'm a big fan of ran of um, uh, satisfaction theory, right? 'cause that led into penal substitution theory. And I think there's a lot of truth to satisfaction atonement theory. Um, one thing that I think we have to be really cautious of with that is this idea that somehow God's. Honor, like is impugned and that he has to respond in a particular way, otherwise it somehow degrades his character and some wouldn't go that far. But I think it's an implication of his, his theology is that's really a problem, right? That can be problematic because if God is somehow changed or harmed or injured by our sin, then then forgiving us. Becomes a problem because there has to be some sort of restoration to his being. And that would now put, you know, put a weird dynamic on the, the atonement that isn't, isn't biblical. So just like in this parable, the, the king can forgive the servant, sort of almost like. Almost casually, right? Like right. The servant doesn't even ask him to forgive the debt. And he is like, oh, don't worry about it. Like, I don't mean to be flippant about it, but like there is this element of like, it's almost a non-issue for this king to just say like, your debt is erased. I'm not, I'm not concerned about that. Um, he sees the. Outward disposition of this servant of Des apparently desiring to be able to pay this debt off and, and committing to what it takes. And he takes that step of mercy that wasn't even being asked of, but that's not possible if the king is somehow, uh, in a position of injury because of this debt. Right. Um, he, he really doesn't seem to care about the debt. He, he just lets it go. And we have to, we have to then map that up to what God is like and what the kingdom of heaven is like. The kingdom of heaven. Um, it doesn't hurt God to forgive us. It doesn't hurt God or change the kingdom of heaven. It doesn't cause a diminishment in the kingdom of heaven for him to freely forgive our sins. I mean, we could get into it, but like that, that's like totally flies in the face of Roman Catholic theology entirely,  [00:53:57] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:53:57] Tony Arsenal: Where like there has to be this, this exchange between the sinner and God, a meritorious exchange on some level in order for forgiveness to happen well. That only works if God is somehow benefiting or gaining from your, your, um, your good works. He's accepting it in some way that actually benefits him. Now, that may be like a, a relational benefit or something like that, but it's still benefiting him. This parable seems to just fly in the face of that.  [00:54:25] Jesse Schwamb: It does, and we see justice is still at play here because we get at least some sense of what, like the equality of this debt, what it equals, what it costs. Because we're told that when he comes before the king, the king says that he's commanded to be sold along with his wife and children and all that he had. So we know at least like that that would've been, in other words, this debt equals enslavement. That would be the only other way to even hope. To have some kind of restitution for, right. Even that would be woefully insufficient. You're right. And so we still get a sense here, but that, that we're talking about livelihood, belongings, the persons themselves not being worth enough to really repay, but that is what would be required. Even just to begin that it's true that the minimum wages of sin is death and that's what the least of which our payment should be. And so you're right that here we have one coming with all of the solvency that's required is not, not hurt by having to expend this, but must do. So I think that's like the subtext is behind there. It's not explicitly said, but it's clear like you're saying, Tony, that that's what's required of the one forgiving the debt. It isn't just like, oh well. Well, maybe you'll do better next time.  [00:55:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:55:37] Jesse Schwamb: But instead says, no, this again, if it's a real liability that stands, it doesn't just go away in its own. You can't just snap it out of existence. I think that was a Thanos reference that I didn't Look at me. Look at me. He  [00:55:49] Tony Arsenal: only gets rid of half of your debt. [00:55:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, look at me. Yeah. I guess that's a joke. Jokes on you. Um, yeah. Uh, only half by the way. I know what you saying. That reminded me one time of somebody ribbing me after I'd run a half marathon. I was like, oh yeah, I ran the half marathon. And they're like, well, that's great. What other things do you only do halfway? Um, and so, you know, like I, you're right with this, like at most this would kind of get you like maybe halfway and that's like being generous. And so here the greatest is generosity.  [00:56:17] Next Gasp and Wrap Up [00:56:17] Jesse Schwamb: And the shock that we're gonna see next is, first there's the gasp at, you know, maybe even Peter asking out loud, how many times do I have to forgive him? And then there's this gasp at here's this incredible sized debt. And like you said, how did one accrue that? Yeah. How did that go on for so long? It's just impossible. And then the gasp of maybe him saying like, just gimme more time and I'm gonna make it happen. And then the gasp of this forgiveness, and there's a bigger gasp that's coming, I think next, which is, yeah. Just from one shocked expression to the next, but I think we gotta call it there.  [00:56:50] Tony Arsenal: We do. Yeah. I, I'm, I'm looking forward to this too, because this is basically, uh, this parable is the parable of the lost son. In a different register. Like it's, it's the same basic dynamic, but the characters are flipped around a little bit, which is really, I think is really interesting and fascinating and, and fun to tease out. So we'll, uh, we'll put a pin in that now. Uh, I'm super, super stoked to continue this. Like I said, this is a, this chapter, um, chapter 18 of Matthew has been really sort of. Out Sizely formative in my life and my thought process about the nature of the church. So it's, it's fun for me and meaningful for me to kind of tease out some of these specifics and come to it and learn some new things. I think this is the beauty of the scriptures, right? When we sit down and we're serious and we take time to think through these things. God is faithful to always. That's right. Continue teaching us, right? Every day is a school day, but when you sit down and study the scriptures, if you let the scripture study you, you're gonna come away with it with, at a minimum, a deeper understanding of what you already had. But I think most of the time when we're serious, we actually come away having learned something, maybe not entirely new, but something different than what we expected.  [00:58:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So since every day's a school day, what have we learned on this episode? Well, I think we've learned that this parable is teaching us that the Kingdom of Heaven is a community built on astonished mercy. And the king's free parting creates a people who forgive from the hearts. And like you said, that means that that is the fruit of righteousness in our life. By the blood of Christ applied to us through the Holy Spirit, and that means we don't forgive to be forgiven. We are forgiving people because we have already been forgiven in the best and the greatest of all possible ways. Getting rid of that debt that was so large, we couldn't hope to get out from underneath it. I think we've also learned, Tony, that you finally have become a hipster, and I'm so happy that you've arrived with the rest of us. And I hope we've inspired other people to go out and pour water over their own coffee. It's delicious.  [00:58:55] Tony Arsenal: That might be the only actual hipster thing. Right now I'm wearing a, a zip up sweater that is, uh, is from when I was in seminary like 15 years ago. I still, I still own and wear clothes. Uh, that are like decades old. Uh, this is gonna like fall off my body at some point, but I am never getting rid of it, so, yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked to keep going. Uh, please come back and join us next week. We'll be finishing out the parable. Uh, we'll, we'll talk through, you know. The difference between 20,000 years worth of debt or 200,000 years worth of debt, I'm not even good enough at math to figure that on the fly versus like a hundred days of debt. Uh, it's, it's a totally different register, uh, and it just continues to add to the absurdity of this thing. So until we do that, until next time, Jesse, honor everyone.  [00:59:46] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 

In this profound exploration of Philippians 1:27–2:11, Tony Arsenal unpacks Paul's urgent call to gospel-centered unity in the face of both external persecution and internal division. Preaching to Christ Community Church in Plainfield, NH, Arsenal demonstrates how the Philippian church's brewing conflict between two prominent women threatened their witness and weakened their defensive posture against genuine opposition. The sermon's theological centerpiece—the Christ hymn of Philippians 2:5-11—is presented not primarily as a doctrinal treatise on the incarnation, but as the supreme pattern for Christian humility and sacrificial service. Arsenal challenges believers to assess their own conflicts, embrace sober self-esteem that esteems others higher, and embody the mind of Christ who emptied himself, becoming obedient even to death on a cross for our sake. Key Takeaways Unity is a Command, Not a Suggestion: Paul commands the Philippians to "think the same thing" and be "of one mind"—language far stronger than mere harmony or getting along. This unity encompasses doctrinal agreement, practical cooperation, and relational reconciliation, all essential for presenting a united front against opposition to the gospel. Internal Division Undermines Gospel Witness: The conflict between Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3) was not peripheral but central to Paul's concern. When believers are divided by petty squabbles or unresolved conflicts, they distract from the gospel message and allow the true enemies of the faith to gain ground without resistance. Humility Means Esteeming Others Higher: Biblical humility is not self-degradation or denying the gifts God has given you. Rather, it's having a sober, honest assessment of yourself while deliberately choosing to recognize and celebrate the giftings in others as more significant than your own accomplishments. Christ's Humiliation is Our Pattern: The incarnation and Christ's entire earthly life—from conception through crucifixion—constituted a sustained act of humiliation and obedient suffering. This was not merely God accommodating himself to our understanding, but the incarnate Son actually experiencing weakness, pain, persecution, and death as our example and substitute. Suffering for Christ is a Gift: Paul presents suffering for the sake of Christ not as evidence of weak faith or divine abandonment, but as a privilege granted by God. This suffering serves as a sign both of the eventual destruction of God's enemies and the certain salvation of his people. Practical Unity Requires Concrete Action: Unity is not achieved through vague commitments to "love God and love others" but through specific, agreed-upon practices—how the church handles requests for help, who makes decisions, how conflicts are resolved, and whether members are working toward the same vision. Reconciliation Cannot Wait: Jesus prioritizes reconciliation with an offended brother or sister even over worship at the altar. If you know someone has something against you—or if you're the one harboring offense—make it right this week, because coming to worship while unreconciled places you in opposition to God himself. Key Concepts The Military Metaphor of Standing Side by Side Paul's instruction to "strive side by side" (Philippians 1:27) deliberately evokes the image of ancient military formations, particularly the phalanx used by Greek and Roman soldiers. In this formation, soldiers would stand shoulder to shoulder with large shields overlapping, creating an nearly impenetrable defensive wall. The strength of the phalanx wasn't in individual prowess but in unified cohesion—when soldiers stood together, pressure from enemies actually reinforced rather than weakened their defense. Paul applies this tactical reality to the church: Christians facing opposition must present such a united front that external pressure only strengthens rather than fractures their fellowship. This requires not just agreement in principle but actual coordination of thought, spirit, and action. When believers are divided—bickering over personal preferences, nursing interpersonal grievances, or pursuing selfish ambition—they break formation, leaving gaps through which spiritual enemies can attack. The Philippian church, facing real persecution in a Roman colony, needed to grasp that their internal conflicts were tactical vulnerabilities that could prove fatal to their witness. The Incarnation as Sustained Humiliation The traditional Reformed understanding of Christ's "humiliation" encompasses his entire earthly existence from conception to burial, not merely his passion and crucifixion. Arsenal emphasizes that when Philippians 2:6-8 describes Christ "emptying himself" and "humbling himself," Paul has the whole trajectory of incarnate life in view. From the moment the eternal Son took on human nature in Mary's womb—experiencing the compression of birth, the skinned knees of childhood, the weariness of labor, the sting of rejection from family and friends, and ultimately the agony of crucifixion—every moment constituted an act of voluntary humiliation. This was not playacting; Christ genuinely experienced human weakness, limitation, suffering, and mortality. He "learned obedience through what he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8), meaning the incarnate Son actually underwent a process of human development and moral formation, though without sin. This comprehensive view of Christ's humiliation serves Paul's ethical argument: if the eternal Son of God willingly embraced such comprehensive lowliness for the sake of others, how much more should believers embrace inconvenience, discomfort, and self-sacrifice for the good of fellow Christians and the advancement of the gospel? Sober Self-Esteem vs. False Humility Arsenal challenges a common misunderstanding of Christian humility—the notion that godliness requires constant self-deprecation and denial of one's gifts and abilities. He argues that such "worm theology" actually dishonors God by refusing to acknowledge the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification and the gifts distributed by the Spirit for the body's edification. True humility, as Paul describes it in Philippians 2:3-4, consists of having an honest, accurate assessment of yourself—recognizing your genuine gifts, calling, training, and spiritual progress—while simultaneously making the deliberate choice to recognize and celebrate others' gifts as more significant than your own. This is not a zero-sum calculation where acknowledging others requires diminishing yourself. Rather, it's an abundance mentality: "I'm genuinely good at X because God has gifted me, and I thank him for that; but when I see someone else gifted in Y, I'm even more excited about their contribution than my own." This perspective prevents both false humility (which can mask pride) and competitive jealousy (which destroys unity). It creates the conditions for genuine collaboration where believers work "side by side" without jockeying for position or recognition. Memorable Quotes "We certainly face real pressures to conform to the patterns of this world rather than to the pattern of Christ—that is the real enemy that Paul is encouraging and commanding the Philippians and therefore us to stand against. And we cannot do that if we don't have a united front." "Our salvation, both as individual Christians and also as the church as a whole, corporately, it actually brings about the destruction of our enemies. In the last day, when Christ makes all things right, he's not just taking the saints to heaven and then putting all of the wicked off in some other place. He descends with the voice of an archangel, he slaughters all of his enemies, and through that destruction of his enemies, he saves those who are his." "God is not calling us to think of ourselves as trash. He made us in his image. He's called us for his glory. He's empowered us by His Holy Spirit and we insult him when we don't acknowledge the gifts that he's given us. But what he is commanding us to do is to see the giftings in other people and to esteem those as higher than our own." Full Transcript [The complete, unedited transcript of the episode is provided above in the source material.]

In this episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore one of Scripture's most fascinating puzzles: the parable of the lost sheep appears in both Luke 15 and Matthew 18, yet teaches dramatically different lessons depending on its context. In Luke, it defends Christ's mission to seek the lost and exposes Pharisaic self-righteousness. In Matthew, it becomes a pastoral manual for church discipline, humility, and restoration. This conversation challenges the common assumption that parables have only one meaning and demonstrates how the same story can illuminate multiple theological truths. The hosts unpack the scandalous grace woven throughout both accounts while wrestling with practical implications for church life, confrontation, and the celebration of repentance within the covenant community. Key Takeaways Context transforms meaning: The parable of the lost sheep appears in both Luke 15 and Matthew 18 with similar wording but vastly different applications—proving that parables can have multiple valid meanings depending on their literary and theological context. Matthew 18's audience is internal: Unlike Luke 15, which addresses outsiders and critics, Matthew 18 speaks to disciples about life within the kingdom community—focusing on humility, care for "little ones," and the church's responsibility toward vulnerable or straying members. The parable sets up church discipline: In Matthew 18, the lost sheep parable (vv. 12-14) directly precedes and theologically grounds the church discipline passage (vv. 15-20), teaching that confrontation should be motivated by pastoral rescue, not punitive justice. "Little ones" matter to the Father: The phrase "little ones" refers to children, new believers, and those vulnerable within the church—Christ warns sternly against despising them and insists it is not the Father's will that any should perish (v. 14). Restoration is the goal, not excommunication: Verse 15's language of "gaining your brother" frames confrontation as recovery. Even final excommunication (v. 17) should be carried out with ongoing hope for repentance and return, not with triumphalism or relief. Christ's presence empowers difficult work: The promise that "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them" (v. 20) is not a general prayer meeting verse—it's a specific assurance of Christ's authorizing presence during the judicial and painful work of church discipline. Divine intention shapes church posture: The statement "it is not the will of my Father...that one of these little ones should perish" (v. 14) must color every step of the discipline process, ensuring the church never loses sight of God's restorative heart. Explanatory Paragraphs Context Transforms Meaning One of the most significant insights from this episode is the recognition that the parable of the lost sheep serves distinct theological purposes in Luke 15 and Matthew 18. In Luke, Jesus tells the parable to Pharisees and scribes who criticize Him for welcoming sinners—the lost sheep represents those outside the covenant community whom Christ seeks. In Matthew, however, Jesus addresses His disciples within the context of kingdom life, and the lost sheep represents a believer who has wandered from the fold. This contextual shift demonstrates that parables are not rigid allegories with single meanings but flexible teaching tools that illuminate different facets of divine truth. The hosts argue that this reality should free interpreters from overly narrow readings and encourage careful attention to literary setting, audience, and surrounding discourse when seeking to understand Jesus' teaching. The Parable Sets Up Church Discipline In Matthew 18, the parable of the lost sheep (vv. 12-14) is not an isolated story but a theological foundation for the church discipline instructions that immediately follow (vv. 15-20). By emphasizing the shepherd's joy in recovering the one lost sheep and stating that it is not God's will for any "little one" to perish, Jesus prepares His disciples to approach confrontation with a restorative rather than punitive mindset. The language of "gaining your brother" (v. 15) echoes the recovery theme of the parable—confrontation is rescue, not victory. This connection is often missed because English Bible headings create visual breaks between verses 14 and 15, obscuring their flow. When read together without interruption, the passage reveals that every step of church discipline—from private conversation to final excommunication—must be undertaken with the Father's heart, which longs for the wanderer's return rather than their expulsion. Christ's Presence Empowers Difficult Work The promise in Matthew 18:20—"where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them"—is frequently misapplied as a general encouragement for small prayer groups or house churches. While Christ's omnipresence certainly validates such gatherings, the primary context of this verse is judicial and ecclesiastical. The "two or three" echoes the Old Testament requirement for multiple witnesses in matters requiring serious judgment (Deuteronomy 19:15), and the phrase appears at the climax of Jesus' teaching on church discipline. Christ is promising His authorizing presence specifically during the church's most difficult and painful work: confronting sin, evaluating repentance, and when necessary, declaring someone outside the visible church. This is both sobering and comforting—sobering because it reminds us that church discipline carries divine weight, and comforting because Christ does not leave His church alone in this weighty task but stands in the midst of the assembly, confirming its righteous judgments and sustaining its members through heartbreak. Memorable Quotes "This almost proves the idea that parables have one meaning just isn't really real...a single parable with the same words can have multiple, at the very least, can have multiple gradations of meaning." — Tony Arsenal "The scandal here is that it's not God's will that any one of these little ones should be lost. And that sometimes, I think, in the midst of great conflict feels scandalous." — Jesse Schwamb "Gaining your brother frames confrontation as rescue...discipline begins maybe actually all the way through as pastoral care. It's not public shaming." — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [The complete, unedited transcript of the episode would be included here for reference and accessibility.]

In a theological landscape that often softens sin into "brokenness," Episode 480 re-establishes the biblical category of sin as debt. Jesse Schwamb takes us into the house of Simon the Pharisee to analyze the Parable of the Two Debtors. The central argument is forensic: sin creates an objective liability against God's justice that no amount of human currency—tears, works, or religious heritage—can satisfy. We explore the critical distinction between the cause of justification (God's free grace) and the evidence of justification (love and repentance). This episode dismantles the self-righteous math of the Pharisee and points us to the only currency God accepts: the finished work of Christ. Key Takeaways Sin is Objective Debt: Sin is not merely a relational slight; it is a quantifiable liability on God's ledger that demands clearing. Universal Insolvency: Whether you owe 50 denarii (the moralist) or 500 denarii (the open sinner), the result is the same: total inability to pay. God Names the Claim: The debtor does not get to negotiate the terms of repayment; only the Creditor determines the acceptable currency. Love is Fruit, Not Root: The sinful woman's love was the evidence that she had been forgiven, not the payment to purchase forgiveness. The Danger of Horizontal Math: Simon's error was comparing his debt to the woman's, rather than comparing his assets to God's standard. Justification by Grace: Forgiveness is a free cancellation of the debt, based entirely on the benevolence of the Moneylender (God). Key Concepts The Definition of Money and Grace To understand Luke 7, we must understand money. Money is a system of credit accounts and their clearing. When we apply this to theology, we realize that "religious effort" is a currency that God does not accept. We are like travelers trying to pay a US debt with Zimbabwean dollars. The Gospel is the news that Christ has entered the market with the only currency that satisfies the Father—His own righteousness—and has cleared the accounts of those who are spiritually bankrupt. The Pharisee's Calculation Error Simon the Pharisee wasn't condemned because he wasn't a sinner; he was condemned because he thought his debt was manageable. He believed he had "surplus righteousness." This is the deadly error of legalism. By assuming he owed little, he loved little. He treated Jesus as a guest to be evaluated rather than a Savior to be worshipped. A low view of our own sin inevitably leads to a low view of Christ's glory. Evangelical Obedience The woman in the passage demonstrates what Reformed theologians call "evangelical obedience"—obedience that flows from faith and gratitude, not from a desire to earn merit. Her tears did not wash away her sins; the blood of Christ did that. Her tears were the overflow of a heart that realized the mortgage had been burned. We must never confuse the fruit of salvation with the root of salvation. Quotes Tears don't cancel the ledger. Christ does that. Tears are what debtors do when Mercy lands. Grace received produces love expressed. A creditor doesn't need to be convinced you did harm. The ledger already stands. Transcript [00:01:10] Welcome to The Reformed Brotherhood + Teasing the Parable [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 480 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for those with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, how great is it that we have these incredible teachings of Jesus? Can we talk about that for a second? Tony and I have loved hanging out in these parables with you all, and Tony will be back next week. Don't you worry. But in the meantime, I've got another parable for us to consider, and I figured we would just get. Straight to the points, but I have to let you in in a little secret first, and that is not even Tony knows until he hears this, which parable I've selected for us to chat about. And I knew that there might come a time where I would be able to sneak in with this parable because I love. This parable, and I love it because it's so beautiful in communicating the full breadth and scope of the gospel of God's grace and his mercy for all of his children. And it just makes sense to me, and part of the reason why it makes so much sense to me is. The topic which is embedded in this is something that more or less I've kind of built my career around, and so it just resonates with me. It makes complete sense. I understand it inside and out. I feel a connection to what Jesus is saying here very predominantly because the topic at hand means so much to me, and I've seen it play out in the world over and over and over again. So if that wasn't enough buildup and you're not ready, I have no idea what will get you prepared, but we're going to go hang out in Luke chapter seven, and before I even give you a hint as to what this amazing, the really brief parable is, it does take a little bit of setup, but rather than me doing the setup. What do you say if we just go to the scriptures? Let's just let God's word set up the environment in which this parable is gonna unfold. And like a good movie or a good narrative, even as you hear this, you might be pulled in the direction of the topic that you know is coming. And so I say to you, wait for it. Wait for it is coming.  [00:03:20] Luke 7 Setup: Simon's Dinner & the "Sinful Woman" Arrives [00:03:20] Jesse Schwamb: So this is Luke's book, his gospel chapter seven, beginning in verse 36. Now one of the Pharisees was asking Jesus to eat with him, and Jesus entered the Pharisees house and reclined at the table. And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner, and when she learned that he was reclining at the table in the Pharisees house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume. And standing behind him at his feet crying. She began to wet his feet with her tears, and she kept wiping them with her hair over her head and kissing his feet and anointing them with perfume. Now, in the Pharisee, who had invited him, saw this, he said to himself saying, if this man were, he would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching him, that she is a sinner. Let's stop there for a second. So this incredible dinner party that Jesus attends and here is this woman. Well, all we're told is that she's a woman who's identified as a sinner. Clearly moved by the presence of Jesus clearly wanting to worship him in a very particular way. By the way, loved ones. Can we address the fact that this goes back to something Tony and I have been talking about, I dunno, for like seven episodes now, which is coming outta Luke chapter 15. This idea that sinners, the marginalized, the outcasts, the down and out, they were drawn to Jesus. Something about him, his presence, the power of his teaching drew them in, but in a way that invited vulnerability, this kind of overwhelming response to who he was. And what his mission was. And so here maybe is like any other occurrence that happened in Jesus' day, maybe like a million other accounts that are not recorded in the scriptures. But here's one for us to appreciate that. Here's this woman coming, and her response is to weep before him, and then with these tears, to use them to wash his feet and to anoint him with this precious perfume. Now, there's a lot of people at this dinner party. At least we're led to believe. There's many, and there's one Pharisee in particular whose home this was. It was Simon. And so out of this particular little vignette, there's so much we could probably talk about. But of course what we see here is that the Pharisee who invited him, Simon, he sees this going on. He does not address it verbally, but he has his own opinions, he's got thoughts and he's thinking them. And so out of all of that, then there's a pause. And I, I would imagine that if we were to find ourselves in that situation, maybe we'd be feeling the tension of this. It would be awkward, I think. And so here we have Jesus coming in and giving them this account, this parable, and I wanna read the parable in its entirety. It's very, very short, but it gives us a full sense of both. Like what's happening here? It's both what's happening, what's not happening, what's being. Presented plain for us to see what's below the surface that Jesus is going to reveal, which is both a reflection on Simon and a reflection on us as well. [00:06:18] The Two Debtors Parable (Read in Full) [00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picking up in, in verse 40, and Jesus answered and said to him, Simon, I owe something to say to you. And he replied, say it, teacher a money lender had two debtors, one owned 500 in RI and the other 50. When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more? Simon answered and said, I suppose the one who he graciously forgave more, and he said to him, you have judged correctly and turning toward the woman. He said to Simon, do you see this woman? I entered your house? You gave me no water from my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with perfume. For this reason, I say to you her sins, which are many have been forgiven for. She loved much, but he who is forgiven, little loves little. Then he said to her, your sins have been forgiven, and those were reclining at the table. With him began to say to themselves, who is this man who even forgives sins? And he said to the woman, your faith has saved you. Go in peace.  [00:07:42] What This Scene Teaches: Sin, Forgiveness, Love as Fruit [00:07:42] Jesse Schwamb: What a beautiful, tiny, deep, amazing instruction from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So in this just short 10 verses here, it's we're sitting inside. This dinner at Simon, the Pharisees house, and a woman known publicly only as a sinner, has shown some striking love toward Jesus, and Jesus explains her actions. Then through this mini parable of debt, two debtors, one creditor, neither can pay. Both are freely forgiven. Love flows. Then from that forgiveness. And so there's a lot within the reform theological spectrum here that helps us to really understand. I think the essential principles of what's going on here, and I just wanna hit on some of those and chat with you about those and hopefully encourage you in those as I'm trying to encourage myself. First, we get some sense about what sin really is like. We get a sense of the inability to cope with sin. We get the free forgiveness that's grounded in Christ, in Christ alone, and we get this idea of love and repentance as the fruit or the evidence, not the cause of justification. Now to set this whole thing up. [00:08:50] Why Talk About Money? Defining Money as Credit & Clearing [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: I do think it's so important for us to talk about money for a second, not money, like we're gonna have a budget talk, not what you spend on groceries or your vacation, not even what you do in terms of planning for your retirement or what you give to the church in way of tithe than offering none of that. I'm actually more interested to talk to you about money itself. One of the things I love to ask people. Especially when I was teaching students in money and finance is the question, what is money? And I bet you if you and I were hanging out across the kitchen table and I asked you, what is money? I'm guessing you would go in one or two directions. Either you would gimme examples of money, types of money. You might talk about the US dollar or the Zimbabwean dollar, or the Euro or the Yuan. That would be correct in a way, but really that's just symptomatic of money because that's just an example or a type of some money that you might use. And of course those definitions are not ubiquitous because if I take my US dollars and I go travel to see our Scott brothers and sisters, more than likely that money. That currency, those dollars will not be accepted in kind. There'd have to be some kind of translation because they're not acceptable in that parts of the world. That's true of most types of money. Or you might go to talking about precious metals and the price of gold or silver and how somehow these seem to be above and beyond the different types of currency or paper, currency in our communities and around our world. And of course, you'd be right as an example of a type of money, but. Gold itself, if you press on it, is not just money, it's describing as some kind of definition of what money is. The second direction you might take is you might describe for me all the things that money is like its attributes. Well, it must be accepted generally as a form of currency. It might must be used to discharge debt or to pay taxes, or it must have a store of value and be able to be used as a medium of exchange. And you would be correct about all of those things as well because. Probably, whether you know it or not, you're an expert in money because you have to use it in some way to transact in this lifetime. But even those are again, just attributes. It's not what money is in its essential first principle. So this is not like an economics lecture, I promise, but I think it is something that Jesus is actually truly drawing us to, and that is the best definition of money I can give, is money is a system of credit accounts and their clearing. It's a whole system of credit accounts and their clearing. So think of it like this, every time you need something from somebody else. Anytime you wanna buy something or you wanna sell something, what's happening there is somebody is creating a claim. So let's say that I go to the grocery store and I fill up the cart with all kinds of fruits and vegetables and meats, and I'm at the counter to check out. What I've just done is said that I have all of these things I would like to take from the grocery store, and now the grocery store has some kind of claim because they're handing them over to me and I need a way to settle that claim. And the way that I settle that claim is using money. It is the method that allows us to settle those transactions. And in my particular instance, it's going to be the US dollar, or maybe it's just ones and zeros electronically, of course representing US dollars. But in this case, the way I settle it is with money and a particular type of money. But, and I want you to keep this in mind 'cause we're gonna come back to it. This is my whole setup for this whole thing. The reason why this is important is because you have to have the type of money. That will settle the debt or settle the creditor. You have to have the thing itself that the creditor demands so that you can be a hundred percent released from the claim that they have on you. If you do not have exactly a. The type of money that they desire, then the debt will not be released. The creditor will not be satisfied. You will not go free, and that it's so critically important.  [00:12:52] Sin as Objective Debt: God Names the Claim [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: I think it's just like this really plain backdrop to what's happening here When Jesus addresses Simon with this whole parable. So he starts this whole idea by saying to Simon that he is something to say to him, which I think in a way is profound anyway, because Simon invites him to speak. But Jesus here is taking the initiative. Simon is the host. He socially, as it were, above this sinful woman. But Jesus becomes the true examiner of the heart in this parable. What we have is. Christ's word interrupts self-justifying narratives, and clearly there was a self-justifying narrative going on in Simon's head. We know this because we're privy to his thoughts in the text here. The gospel does not wait here for the Pharisee to figure it out, the gospel lovingly correct. Always goes in, always initiates, always intervenes as Christ intercedes. And here, before any accounting happens, Jesus sets the terms. God is the one who names the debt, not the debtor. And this really is probably the beating hearts, the center of gravity of this whole exchange. I love that Jesus goes to this parable. Of a money lender, a money lender who had two debtors, one owned, 500, one owned 50. Now of course, I would argue that really, you can put this in any currency, you can translate into modern terms, you can adjust it for inflation. It doesn't really matter. What we have here is one relatively small debt, another debt 10 times the size. So one small, one large, and that's the juxtaposition. That's the whole setup here. And I would submit to you something super important that Jesus does here, which flies in the face of a lot of kind of just general wishy-washy evangelicalism that teaches us somehow that sin is just not doing it quite right, or is just a little brokenness, or is just in some way just slightly suboptimal or missing the mark. It is those things, but it is not the entirety of those things because what's clear here is that Jesus frames sin as debt. In other words, it's an objective liability. A liability is just simply something of value that you owe to somebody else. And I am going to presume that almost everybody within an earshot of my voice here all over the world has at some point incurred debt. And I think there's, there's lots of great and productive reasons to incur debt. Debt itself is not pejorative. That would be a whole nother podcast. We could talk about. Maybe Tony and I sometime, but. What is true is that debt is an objective liability. The amounts differ, but both are genuinely in the red here. And what's critical about this is that because debt is this objective reality, whenever you enter into an arrangement of debt, let's say that you borrow some money to purchase a car or home or simply to make some kind of purchase in your life, that's unsecured debt. In all of those cases, the. The one lending you the money, the creditor now has a claim on you. What's important to understand here is that this kind of thing changes it. It provides way more color and contrast to really the effects of what sin is and what sin does in its natural accountability. And so in this way we have this nuance that there are differences in outward sin and its social consequences. That is for sure that's how life works, but all sin is ultimately against God and makes us debtors to divine justice. That is now God has a claim against us. And this shouldn't make sense because unless we are able to satisfy that claim, all have that claim against them all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And as a result of this, it's not just that we somehow have lived a way that is just slightly off the mark and suboptimal, but instead that we've heaped up or accumulated for ourselves an objective liability, which is truly. Owed to God and because it is truly owed him, he's the one who can only truly satisfy it. This is why the scripture speak of God as being both just and justifier. That is a just creditor ensures that the debt is paid before it is released, and the one who is justifier is the one who pays that debt to ensure it will be released. God does both of these things through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Praise be to his name. So here we have a really true understanding. Of what sin is. There's no mincing of words here. There's a ubiquity in all of our worlds about money lending and borrowing, and Christ leans into that heavily. We know for a fact that the ancient Mesopotamians learned how to calculate interests before they figured out to put wheels on car. And so this idea of lending and borrowing and indebtedness, this whole concept has an ancient pedigree, and Jesus leans into this. And so we have this really lovely and timeless example of drawing in the spiritual state into the very physical or financial state to help us understand truly what it means when we incur sin. Sin is not easily discharged, and just like debt, it stands over us, has a claim on us, and we need somebody to satisfy that claim on our behalf. By the way, this gets me back to this reoccurring theme of we need the right currency, we need the right money, as it were to satisfy this debt only that which is acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Our Lord, by the power of the Holy Spirit is what will be acceptable in payment in full for this kind of debt. And so that's again, this whole setup, it's the spiritual realm being immediately kind of dragged into this corporal reality of the balance sheet, assets and liabilities, things of value that we owe to someone else. [00:18:50] Unable to Repay: Free Cancellation, Justification by Grace [00:18:50] Jesse Schwamb: Notice in Luke verse 42, that the reason why it's important to understand the full ferocity, the ferocious of sin and the weight of the debt that it incurs upon us, is that it cannot be repaid no matter what. So look at both of these borrowers. Neither could repay. Neither could repay. So think about that for a second. It doesn't even matter how much they owed. Both were way beyond their ability. It's not merely they didn't want to, but they didn't have the resources in the spiritual state. In other words, there was no surplus righteousness to pay God back and the creditor's action here is free cancellation grace, not a negotiated settlement, but free cancellation. So whether it was 50 or 500, it was irrelevant to the fact that these borrowers just like you and I, have nothing within our means, our wherewithal to actually satisfy the this cosmic debt that we have rightfully incurred against God. And so you should be hearing this align so closely with justification By Grace, God doesn't forgive because we eventually scraped together payment. He forgives because he's gracious and in the full biblical picture because Christ pays and bears that penalty. So this isn't, we have somehow, as you've heard, sometimes in kinda very again, wishy-washy, evangelical ways that we've somehow come forward at the right time. To receive from God some kind of gift or that we've somehow elevated ourself to the place of the deserving poor, or that we come with our own extended arms, empty, but outstretched so that we might receive something from God, in part because we make ourselves present before him, not loved ones. It's far better than that. It's not being able to pay and Christ saying, come and buy. Not being able to put food on the table and him saying, come and eat. It's him saying, you who are thirsty, come and drink from the fountain of life freely and unreservedly. Not because you have some way deserved it, because in fact you desperately do not. And because God has made a way in Christ a way that we could not make for ourselves, he's paid a debt that we just could not repay. It doesn't matter what it is that you think is outstanding against you. The fact of the matter is you cannot repay it. And so of course, that's why Paul writes in Ephesians, it's by grace through faith and not by works that you've been set free in the love of the Kingdom of Christ, that all of these things have been given to you by God because he loves you and because he's made a way for you. You may remember that when Tony and I spent some time in the Lord's Prayer. That we really settled, we sunk down into what we thought was the best translation of that portion where we come to forgiving debts and forgiving debtors, and we settled on that one because we feel it's the most accurate representation of the actual language there in the text. But two, because that language also comports with all this other teaching of Jesus, this teaching that. Emphasizes the debt nature of sin, and that when we think about the fact that we in fact have a giant loan or a lease or an outstanding obligation, something that has been that our souls ourselves in a way have been mortgaged. And we need a freedom that breaks that mortgage, that wants to take that paper and to satisfy the payment and then to throw it into the fire so that it's gone and no more upon us. That because of all of that, it's appropriate for us to pray that we be forgiven our debts, and that, that we, when we understand that there's been a great debt upon us, that we are willing to look at others and forgive our debtors as well. And so you'll see that in, I'd say it looks like verse 43 here, Simon answers. Jesus question appropriately. Jesus basically pegs him with this very simple, straightforward, and probably really only one answer question, which is, which one do you think loved the creditor more? Which of these borrowers was more ecstatic, which appreciated what had been done more? And of course he says, well, the one with the larger debt, that that seems absolutely obvious. And Jesus essentially here gets Simon to pronounce judgment and then turns that judgment into a mirror. This is brilliantly what Jesus often does with these parables, and to be honest, loved ones. I think he still is doing that today with us. Even those of us who are familiar with these parables, they're always being turned into a mirror so that when we look into the, the text we see ourselves, but like maybe whatever the opposite of like the picture of the Dorian Gray is like, well, maybe it's the same as the picture. You know, this idea that we're seeing the ugliness of ourselves in the beauty of Christ as he's presenting the gospel in this passage. And the issue of course here is not whether you and I or Simon can do math. It's whether Simon will accept the implication and you and I as well, that we are a debtor who cannot repay. That. That's just the reality of the situation.  [00:23:44] The Mirror Turns: Simon's Little Love vs Her Overflowing Gratitude [00:23:44] Jesse Schwamb: And so Jesus turns then, and this is remarkable, he turns toward the woman and he compares her actions with Simon's lack of hospitality, speaking to Simon while he stares intently at the woman. I mean, the drama unfolding in this quick small little passage is exceptional. It's extraordinary. And unlike some of the. Other teachings that we've already looked at here, there is something where Jesus is teaching and acting at the same time. That is the scripture is giving us some direct indication of his movements, of his direction, of his attentional focus. And here there's an attentional focus on the woman while he speaks to Simon the Pharisee. And first what we find is Jesus dignifies the woman by addressing Simon about her while looking at her. He makes the sinner central and the respectable man answerable. That's wild. And there's an angle here that still leads us back to debt, which is Simon behaves like someone who thinks that he is little debt. So he offers little love and the woman behaves like someone who knows she's been rescued from insolvency, and so she pours out gratitude. And then there's a whole host, a little list here, a litany of things that Jesus essentially accuses Simon of directly and pulls them back into this proper understanding of the outpouring of affection. That is a fruit of justification exemplified in the woman's behavior. For instance, Simon gave no kiss, and yet here's this woman. She has not stopped kissing Jesus' feet and then wiping her feet, washing his feet with her tears.  [00:25:19] Grace Received, Love Expressed (Not Earned) [00:25:19] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, in that culture, Simon withheld this ordinary honor and the woman lavish is extraordinary affection. You know, we would often call this an reformed theology, evangelical obedience. It's the kind that flows from faith and gratitude, not a plan to earn acceptance. And this is tough for us, loved ones because we want to conflate these two. It's easy to conflate these two, and we're well-meaning sometimes when we do that. But we have to be careful in understanding that there is an appropriate response of loving worship to one who has set you free. While at the same time understanding that that loving worship never should spill over and, and into any kind of self-proclaimed pride or meritorious earning. And this woman apparently does this so exceptionally well that Jesus calls it out, that all of this is flowing from her faith and her gratitude. Jesus says, Simon didn't anoint his head with oil and she anoints his feet with perfume again. Notice some really interesting juxtaposition in terms of the top and the bottom of the body here. Here's this woman's costly act, underscoring a pattern, grace received, produces love expressed. I love thinking of it that way. Grace, perceived, excuse me, grace received produces love expressed.  [00:26:39] Sin as Crushing Debt: Why It Must Be Paid [00:26:39] Jesse Schwamb: That is the point that Jesus is driving to here, that if we understand the gospel and the gospel tells us that there is a law. That we have transgressed and that this law has accumulated in all of this debt that we cannot pay. And so the weight of this means not just that, oh, it's, it's so hard to have debt in our lives. Oh, it's so annoying and inconvenient. No, instead it's oppressive. This debt itself, this grand burden is over our heads, pushing down on our necks, weighting us down in every way, and especially in the spiritual realm. And because of this, we would be without hope, unless there was one who could come and release us from this debt. And the releasing of this debt has to be, again, an A currency acceptable to the debtor, and it has to actually be paid. There's no wiping away. There's no just amnesty for the sake of absolve. Instead, it must be satisfied. And the woman here has received this kind of extraordinary grace has acknowledged, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, through opened eyes and unstopped ears and a clean heart, has been able to understand the severity of the situation. And then this produces in her love expressed, which again is not the means of her justification, but certainly is one of the fruit of it. And Jesus explains then the reason for her response.  [00:27:58] Forgiveness First: Clearing Up Luke 7's Logic [00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: The reason why Grace received produces love expressed is because she and her many sins have been forgiven. Hence, her love is great, love the one forgiven, little forgives little. I think sometimes that verse is often misunderstood as if. Her love caused her forgiveness. But again, we want to hear clearly from Jesus on this. The logic he gives is forgiveness, leading to love. Love is evidence or fruits. And so her love is the sign that forgiveness has already been granted and is truly possessed, not the purchase price. And Simon's Lovelessness exposes a heart still clinging to self-righteousness, acting like a small debtor who doesn't even need mercy, like one who doesn't understand that they will never, ever be able to repay the thing that is over them. You know, I love that John Val is often quoted along the lines of something like this. Those forgiven much will love much. And in his writing to me, he captures so much of this moral psychology of grace and I think there is a psychology of grace here. There is a reasonable response. That moves us by the power of the Holy Spirit, from deep within this renewal of the man, such that we express our love to God in all kinds of ways. I think especially in our age, on the Lord's day, in acts of singing through worship and meditation, through worship, and listening through worship and application, through worship, all of these means in particular as our expression of what it means to have been received, having received grace, producing a loving response. [00:29:36] "Your Sins Are Forgiven": Jesus' Divine Authority [00:29:36] Jesse Schwamb: I love that all of this ends as it draws to a close. Jesus speaks these incredible words. He tells her that her sins are forgiven. You know, notice here that Christ speaks an authoritative verdict. This is justifying speech. It's God's court declaration. It's not some like mere the therapeutic. Like reassurance here. It's not like whistling in the dark. It's Jesus himself saying This woman has been forgiven. Blessed is the one whose sins are forgiven. And of course, like so many other times in Jesus' ministry, and I have to imagine by the way, loved ones that this question got asked all the time, and not just on the occasion in which it was a court of us in scripture, but the other guests ask the right question and that question is. Who is this? Who even forgives sins, and that is the right question. Only God can forgive sins against God. Jesus is implicitly claiming divine authority. Now, we finally arrived. This is God's currency. This is the currency or the money, so to speak, that is desperately needed, the only one acceptable to discharge the debt, the cosmic treason that has been done against God himself. So because of that, here's Jesus making the claim that the way that you are led out, the way that you are set free is through me. So even here in the course of just this confronting Simon speaking about sin, he's also providing the way he's saying, I am this way, I am this truth. I am this life. Come through me. [00:31:14] Jesus the Greater Moses: The Gospel as Exodus [00:31:14] Jesse Schwamb: What I find amazing about this is in the beginning. With Adam and Eve, they transgress God's law. And from that day in all days forth, we have been building this massive sin, debt that we cannot repay. And part of the, the repercussions of that debt were for Adam and Eve to be driven to be Exodus as it were, out of the garden. And ever since then, the grand narrative of the redemptive history of God's people has been an exodus instead. Not out of what is idyllic, not out of perfection, but instead. Out of sin, out of bondage, out of sin and death and the devil and the deaths that we have incurred. And so here we have Jesus representing. He is the, the new and better Moses, he is the exodus, so to speak, who comes and grabs us by the hand almost as in the same way that the angelic representations in the story of la. And Sonor grabbed his hand to pull him, maybe even kicking him, screaming. Out of that sinful place, into the glorious light, into safety and security out from underneath this grand debt that we cannot repay. I think of Jesus's acal meeting with Moses and Elijah on the mounts of transfiguration. That's also in Luke, right? And Luke tells us that they spoke of his deceased, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. And the word deceased there literally means Exodus. In Jesus, God would affect an infinitely greater deliverance than he had under Moses. And then interestingly, we see that even in all the way back in Psalm 23, you know David, he's writing as a rescue sinner who has been brought out. Brought to the Heavenly Shepherd, into the security and freedom of a sheep hold in love ones I submit to you. That is what Jesus is after here. He's after it in your life and he's after in mind that there is death, and he wants to take us out from underneath that debt by paying it off that he is the rescuer, the one who is just and justifier that he's the greater Moses, and that he leads us into Exodus. So we are transferred into the kingdom of a light. And that kingdom of light is also a kingdom of lightness in the sense that what was once a burden on our back, like it was for Pilgrim, has now been taken off. And so we are free. In that freedom, in that financial freedom, in that spiritual freedom as it were, to use both of the sides of this metaphor. What we find is our response is appropriately one of worship, that we weep and we cry for who we were, that we rejoice for who God is, and that we come proudly into His kingdom because of what he has done. And this changes us. It messes us up. You know, I think we've said before that. The joy of the Christian life of Christian lives is that the transformation process that God undertakes in each of us is very different, and some honestly are more dramatic than others. But what I think is always dramatic is one, the scripture tells us that it is a miracle. That even one would be saved. So hardhearted are we, and again, so great this debt against us that when God intervenes all get what they deserve. But some get mercy. And if we have been the ones who have received mercy, how joyful ought we to be toward the one who has granted it to us? And so here we have Christ, the the one who delivers, the one who leads out, the one who pays off, the one who pays it all.  [00:34:45] Behold the Cross: What Sin Costs, What Love Pays [00:34:45] Jesse Schwamb: I think what's clear is that the cross gives us this sense when we look upon it of just how deep and dark and heavy sin is, and that there is no easy way out of it. That what we find is that sin constantly wants to drag us down. It constantly wants to take us farther than we wanted to go, and it certainly costs us way more than we were willing to pay. So I think if we come and we behold the wood, if we behold the nails, if we look on this crown pressed into the brow that knew no guilt or disobedience, if we, not in our mind's eye, but by faith, behold, the hands that open, the blind eyes now being opened by iron. If we see the feet. Walked toward the hurting, now fixed in place for the healing of the world. If we look at the thirst of the one who is living water and the hunger of the one who is the bread of life, we ought to see the one who here, even in this passage, is just and justifier, and he invites us to say with him, come witness the death of death in the death of Jesus Christ. That is the glorious mission, right? As as, um, Horatio Spafford said, my sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought. My sin not in part, but the whole is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Oh my soul of ones. This is the beauty of, I think of what Jesus is, is teaching here. It's the lamb. It's the one promise on the mountain provided in place of Isaac. It's the Passover marked with Crimson death passing over doors that were covered. Here's the suffering. Servant despised and rejected a man of sorrows. Who here is one who is truly well acquainted with grief? When we see Jesus lifted up, lifted up on the cross, lifted up between heaven and earth. Here the instrument of exalted torment but also unexpected triumph, the perfect God man, lifted up between earth and heaven, lifted up in shame so that we might be lifted up in grace, lifted up in cursing. We might be lifted up in blessing lifted up in Forsakenness so that we might be lifted up in divine communion with God the father lifted up to be stared at as he presents himself here, so that we could finally see what sin costs and what love pays. That is everything that he's teaching us in this passage, and I hope that you are as encouraged about this as I am because. When I think about the gospel framed in this way with the full severity of its repercussions, thinking about sin as debt objectively as a liability, that must be satisfied. My heart is instantly warmed, and I think the warming of that is not because this manufactured some kind of sentimentality around this, but there is something about this that's so resonant to me that in my professional career, in my business, I'm intimately familiar with, with debt and understanding how to manage it, but also the dangers of it. And what a liability it truly is. And so when I hear that sin not just is like this, but is this way, it makes complete sense to me and I see that this is really the, the true way that we ought to understand, I think the gospel message.  [00:38:18] Key Takeaways: Debt, Currency, and Canceling the Ledger [00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what we should remember. Debt highlights objective guilt. I think I've said that a bunch of times and I just feel like it's, it bears repeating one last time. Sin is not only damage, it is consequences, but it's also a liability. A creditor doesn't need to be convinced you did harm. The ledger already stands and the ledger against us is not on our side. Loved ones. We are deeply in the red, and it really doesn't matter what the balance is because we just cannot repay. So it's really about our lack of ability, our inability, the no, we have no capability to pay this, and so it doesn't matter. We find ourselves in a place of hopelessness no matter what, and this debt highlights that inability none of these particular borrowers could repay. It's devastating to moral pride. We lean on this in our reform theological perspective. Even our best works can't erase guilt or generate merit sufficient to square the accounts. It's impossible. It's impossible with two ways, and this is some, I think really like the beautiful nuance of what Jesus after here in the one way that we are enabled to do this. Is because we just actually cannot earn enough. So in other words, the debt is too big. So think of the biggest number in your head that you could possibly think of, and that's at least minimally the outstanding debt. But then think about this. You don't even have the right currency. So you might find that you spend your entire lifetime working to the bone. It's like finding out that you have a million dollar loan or lien against you, and you work hard all your life, 50, 60, 70 years. And finally, on your deathbed, you've assembled enough cash with all of your savings to put toward and finally satisfy. So you might die in peace with this $1 million free and clear from your account, and you turn over the money and the creditor says, what is this currency? I won't accept this. I can't accept this. How debilitating. So it's not even the size of the debt. It's also that we don't have, we cannot earn the right currency. Only. God. God. I think this debt also highlights grace as cancellation. Forgiveness is not God pretending the debt doesn't exist. It is God releasing the debtor. This is him in triumph, being the greater Moses who walks us out through the waters outside of the city into the glorious light and the broader New Testament explains how God can do that justly. The charge is dealt with through Christ. You can go check out Colossians two. Read the whole thing of Love it. It's fantastic. I think lastly, this debt explains love, as shall we say, like a downstream effect. People love a little when they imagine that they have little needs and people love much when they were spiritually bankrupt and then freely pardoned freely in that it didn't cost you and I anything, but of course it cost our Lord and Savior everything, and so. In this way, our hopes to frame the fact that our love should be an outpouring of gratitude, uh, for the grace that God has given us through Jesus Christ.  [00:41:28] Putting It Into Practice: Don't Compare Debts, Watch for "Simon Symptoms" [00:41:28] Jesse Schwamb: Here's some things I would say that we should all walk away with to help us then both process what we've talked about here, and also put some of this into action. First thing would be, don't measure your need by comparing debts horizontally. That's a fool's errand, whether 50 or 500. The point is we cannot pay. And this levels the Pharisee and the prostitute alike. That is like Tony talked about elsewhere in the previous Luke 15, where we're talking about the PR prodigal of the father, the prodigal of the two lost sons. How there's like a great insult against the Pharisee there. And here's the insult, it's also a little bit cutting to us, and again, that the Pharisee and the prostitute are alike. Can't repay. It Doesn't matter what debt you think you have in the corporal sense, or again in this horizontal means, but you cannot repay it. And so therefore, guess what? We're all like, we need to let forgiveness lead and we need to let love follow. If you reverse that order like I'll love so I can be forgiven. You crush assurance and you turn the gospel into wages and that's again exactly I think what Jesus is against in this. He's making that very clear. The, the beauty of the gospel is this receiving that Christ has done all these things that we, uh, find ourselves by his arresting, by again, his intervening by his coming forward. He does all this on our behalf. You've heard me say before, I always like take that old phrase, what would Jesus do? That question that was on everybody's bracelets and everybody's minds and what, two decades ago? And turn that answer into what would Jesus do? Everything And it's already done. We need to watch for Simon symptoms. That's my clever way of saying this, like low love, high judgment. A chilly heart toward Christ often signals a warm heart towards self justification. And so we wanna be about the kind of people that are closely king, clinging to Jesus Christ as all of our hope and stay that the strength for today and hope for tomorrow comes from what Christ has already accomplished on our behalf. And therefore, there is a dutiful and meaningful and appropriate response for us. But that response again, is not obedience for merit. It is obedience out of warm heartedness for our savior. And for a sincere repentance because a sincere repentance is not payment. It's agreement with God about the debt. Tears, don't cancel the ledger. Christ does that. Tears are what debtors do when Mercy lands, and I think in some way the challenge here is that have we really meditated on the life of this woman and then more personally on our own experiences on what it means to be saved? Well, I'm not asking you to get yourself worked up into an emotional state, but what I am asking all of us to do is. Have we spent enough time recently meditating on what it means that Christ has set us free, that we are incredible debtors, and that Christ in our own ledger in this way hasn't just wiped out the debt, but he's filled up the account with righteousness. And so we can exchange these horrible soiled garments for garments of praise. Now, have we thought about that recently? The call here is to be reminded. That sincere repentance is an agreement with God about the debt, and in that agreement we're sensing that weight. There should be a response.  [00:44:42] Final Charge + Community & Support (Telegram / Patreon) [00:44:42] Jesse Schwamb: So I leave it to you loved ones, you've heard it here, or at least you've heard me talk for a little while about this parable. And maybe one day, maybe there'll be an episode one day about Tony's perspective on this, which I can't imagine will be too much different. But again, I saw my opportunity, loved ones. I said, oh, I'm gonna sneak in hard on this one because this one is particularly meaningful and special to me, and I hope that even though it involved a little bit of economics and maybe a lot of finance, that it didn't lose its resonance with you. I think this is the great weight of the way in which Jesus teaches that he's not just using practical means. But he's using these things to give greater weight and flesh, as it were, to these concepts of a spiritual nature that sometimes feel ephemeral. Instead, he wants them to sink in heaviness upon us. And I wanna be clear that. This whole parable is both law and gospel. It is the weightiness and the sharp edge knife of the law which cuts against us. And Jesus throwing his weight around literally at this dinner party and in this parable, and you and I should feel that weight. It should knock us around a little bit. And then. And then comes the reminder that there is good news and that good news, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that he has made a way that the debt that was incurred against us, that we ourselves added to, that we continue to want to try to borrow against, that Jesus has, in fact paid that debt in full and that he's done so in the currency of his own flesh and blood and his own passive and active obedience so that it may be paid in full. It's true what the hymn says. Jesus paid it all, all to him. I owe. So I hope loved ones that you'll be encouraged with that message that it is both law and gospel, but it ends in this high and elevated state, which is we have been made together alive with Christ for his own sake, for his glory, and for our good. So now that you know that go out into the world and live that way, meditate on that, enjoy that. Talk about it with a family member or a brother and sister, or you can talk about it with us. You didn't think that we'd get this far without me even a plug for telegram, did you? So if you. Haven't listened to us before, or if this is your 480th time, I say welcome and also come hang, hang out with us online. You can do that by going to your browser and putting in there. T me slash reformed brotherhood. T. Dummy slash reformed brotherhood, and that will take you to a little app called Telegram, which is just a messaging app. And we have a closed community in there, which you can preview and then become a part of. And there's lots of lovely brothers, sisters from all over the world interacting, talking about the conversations we're having here, sharing prayer requests, sharing memes, talking about life tasting foods on video. It's really. Absolutely delightful, and I know you want to be a part of it, so come hang out. It's one other thing you can do. If at any point you felt like this podcast, the conversations have been a blessing to you, may I ask a favor, something at least for you to consider, and that is there are all kinds of expenses to make sure that this thing keeps going on. Keeps going strong. And there are brothers and sisters who after they've satisfied their financial obligations, have said, I want to give a little bit to that. So if you've been blessed, I'm what I can I boldly ask that you might consider that it's so many people giving so many tiny little gifts because all of these things compound for God's glory in the kingdom. And if you're interested in giving to us one time or reoccurring, here's a website for you to check out. It's patreon.com. Reform Brotherhood, P-A-T-R-E-O n.com, reform slash reform brotherhood. Go check that out. Alright, that's it. Loved ones, you know what to do. Until next time, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. 

In this profound exploration of Luke 15, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb complete their examination of the Parable of the Prodigal Son by focusing on the often-overlooked central figure: the father. Rather than a sentimental character, the father serves as a revelatory figure who demonstrates God's nature toward returning prodigals and resentful religious people alike. This episode challenges common misinterpretations of the parable, particularly regarding the father's running to meet his son, and explores how the parable simultaneously confronts both antinomianism and legalism. The hosts demonstrate how the father's love—not the son's repentance—is the driving force of redemption, offering vital insights into God's character and the nature of grace that should transform how we understand salvation and our relationship with the Heavenly Father. Key Takeaways The Father is the Keystone: The father, not the sons, is the central, load-bearing character of the parable, revealing God's character and serving as the foundation for understanding the entire narrative. Divine Initiative Precedes Human Response: The father's compassion and action are described before the son completes his confession, demonstrating that God's mercy initiates reconciliation rather than being triggered by repentance. The Father's "Running" Represents Condescension, Not Embarrassment: Contrary to popular interpretations, the father's running should be understood as divine condescension—God crossing the distance sin creates—rather than undignified self-abasement. God's Love Drives the Plan of Redemption: The parable corrects the theological error of pitting the Son against the Father, showing instead that the Father's love is the motivating force behind salvation (John 3:16). The Parable Confronts Two Errors Simultaneously: Jesus addresses both the younger son's rebellion (antinomianism) and the older son's self-righteousness (legalism), showing that both require the same gracious response from the Father. Wrath is God's "Alien Work": The father shows no wrath in the parable, illustrating that while God's wrath against sin is real, it is not his primary disposition—love and grace are central to his nature. The Insanity of Not Rejoicing: The shocking element of the parable isn't the father's celebration but the older brother's refusal to join it, directly confronting the Pharisees' attitude toward sinners being welcomed into God's kingdom. Key Concepts The Father's Compassion and the Nature of Grace The parable reveals that the father's compassion is active before any condition is met by the returning son. When the text says "while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion," we witness divine initiative in action. This sequence matters tremendously for our understanding of grace. The son had prepared a speech—a negotiation for hired servant status—but the father's embrace interrupts the transaction. Grace is not extracted from God by human improvement or the quality of our repentance; it flows from God's own character and will. This theological reality guards against both presumption and despair. We cannot presume upon grace as though sin doesn't matter—the father clearly identifies the son's condition as "death" and "lostness." Yet neither can we despair that our repentance might be insufficient to move God—his love precedes and enables our return. As Ephesians 1:4-6 declares, God chose us "before the foundation of the world...according to the pleasure of His goodwill." The father's running illustrates what was true before time began: God's saving disposition originates in himself, not in us. Condescension versus Decorum: Rethinking the Father's Run Much scholarship has emphasized the supposed shame of a patriarch running, suggesting this represents God's willingness to be embarrassed for our sake. However, this interpretation may miss the mark. The running should be understood as condescension—God stooping to save—rather than a violation of decorum. Throughout Scripture, God is described as "bearing Israel up as a man carries his son" (Deuteronomy 1:31) and having compassion that "grows warm" (Hosea 11:8). These are images of condescension: the infinite God making himself accessible to finite creatures. The distinction matters because it shapes how we understand God's character. If the father's running is primarily about embarrassment, the focus remains on cost to dignity. But if it's about condescension, the focus shifts to the nature of love that bridges distance. Any parent who has seen a long-lost child return understands this instinct—you don't calculate dignity; you simply run. The father's action isn't surprising or unusual given the circumstances; what's shocking is the older brother's refusal to share in the joy. This interpretation better fits the parable's context and Jesus's purpose in telling it to the Pharisees. The Father's Love as the Engine of Redemption Perhaps the most crucial theological correction this parable offers concerns the relationship between the Father and the Son in the economy of salvation. Some theological circles wrongly pit "the wrathful Father" against "the loving Son," as though Jesus came to change the Father's mind about sinners. This parable demolishes that error. The father's love is the initiating force of the entire narrative. Before the son returns, the father is disposed to welcome him. Before the older son rejects the celebration, the father goes out to plead with him. This reflects the biblical pattern consistently: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (John 3:16)—the Father's love gives the Son. The covenant of redemption originates in the Father's love for the elect. The incarnation, atonement, and application of redemption all flow from the Father's initiative. Wrath, while real and righteous, is God's "alien work"—not foreign to him, but not his primary disposition either. The father in the parable displays nothing but gracious intention toward both sons, never manipulated into love, never coerced into mercy, but freely extending restoration because it flows from who he is. Memorable Quotes The love of God the Father is the motivating factor that drives the whole plan of redemption...So it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love. - Tony Arsenal The father in this archway is the keystone. He's the load-bearing character in this whole parable. He's not just a sentimental figure, he's a revelatory figure. He shows us what God is like toward returning prodigals and toward resentful older brothers. - Jesse Schwamb The point that the parable is making is that the love of this father drives him to exert himself and close that distance...There is never a point in the parable where there's anything shown by the father except for love for his people. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: In a lot of theological circles, this takes the form of pitting the son against the father, like God, the Son against God, the Father the son placated the father. Because the father was wrathful and angry, so Jesus had to come down and die and now the Father can love us. The reality is the love of God the father, is the motivating factor that drives the plan of redemption, and that's the same love of the Son and the same love of the spirit. In the most famous verse in the Bible, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that's God the Father  So it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love [00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 479 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:00] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:06] Discussing the Parable of the Lost Son [00:01:06] Jesse Schwamb: We've been famously in the parable of the Lost Son or The Lost Sons. Or the father. Everybody knows this. And today on this episode, we're at least gonna close out our conversation about Luke Chapter 15. And I think everybody should just imagine that this parable is like a grand stone archway that's being constructed in such a way that it has to bear its own weight. And the father in this archway is the keystone. He's the load-bearing character in this whole parable. He's not just like a sentimental figure, he's a revelatory figure. He shows us what God is like toward returning prodigals and toward resentful older brothers. And Jesus uses this to fire up our understanding of the kingdom and the gospel, and also to fire up the scribes and the Sadducees. So we're talking about the Father on this episode, and he's rightfully the culminating character here. He's the keystone. So we're gonna get to arch building, keytones load bearing stuff, all the engineering that you wanted us to talk about in this parable. First we, we gotta do that thing. We just gotta do it, Tony. [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we do.  [00:02:17] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:17] Jesse Schwamb: It's affirmations and denial. So are you, and your excitement is palpable. Are you affirming or are you denying against,  [00:02:24] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying something tonight? It's a little bit heavy.  [00:02:26] Political Discourse and Christian Perspective [00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: Um, we haven't, and, and we don't typically wade into political discourse or what's going on in politics. Um, that's just not really our, our lane. And that's not that there's anything wrong with shows that do, or that there's anything wrong with Christians who want to be involved in political discourse. It's just not really our thing. But, um, you know, I, I grew up in Minneapolis and I have family still in Minneapolis and I was texting with my sister the other day who, um, lives and works right in downtown Minneapolis. And so I think, I think what I'm denying is not necessarily anything related directly to ICE or to the political positions. Um, what I see online. Is that there is a. Bifurcation. There are, there seems to be, and I think this is probably just the, like the nature of online discourse. So I don't think this is necessarily the way it is in the real world, but what I see online is there seems to be sort of progressive leaning Christians who are totally anti-ice. This is the worst thing ever. Um, you know, nobody who's being arrested and deported deserves it and all of the ice people here, but that's one perspective. And then what I tend to see on the other side is ice is like God's righteous warriors and everyone who they scoop up it deserves it no matter what. And they can do no wrong. And, uh. I am not making a commentary. Um, if you want to ask me directly in, in privately what I think about it, I, I'm happy to have a conversation. I'm not doing that right now. Um, I have no commentary on the legality of the, the deportations or the legality of the way they're conducting arrests. That's just, I'm just not interested in talking about that on, on a podcast. But what I do think is challenging and what I think we need to think about as Christians is there is a real.  [00:04:24] Reflecting on Suffering and Compassion [00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Human cost associated with what's going on, and there are lives, um, that are affected and there are people who are scared. I, I think where this really hit me is I just texted my sister to, you know, to tell her that I was praying for her and, and get sort of a general check-in. And she shared with me, and I'm sure that this is not unique to her context. She shared with me that she has, uh, colleagues at, uh, her place of employment, um, who are, are American citizens born in the us, born to citizens. Like there's no question about their citizenship. Um, and they are afraid to leave their home and afraid to go to work. Again, I'm not making any commentary on whether there's illegal things going on. I'm not even making any commentary on whether or not, um, I think it's reasonable for them to be afraid. Um, the fact of the matter is they are afraid to to leave their homes, and some of those people are probably afraid to leave their homes because they feel like ice is going to harass them. Other people are probably afraid to leave their homes because there's a lot of violence and a lot of, uh, unrest going on. But in, in either case, uh, I think we as Christians should look at this and see that there are a lot of hurting people who need Jesus. And there are a lot of people who are scared and there's a lot of people who are suffering real concrete arm all across the whole spectrum of this situations. So as Christians, I think we should be praying that God's will would be done and God does not delight in suffering for, you know, for suffering sake. He doesn't delight in people being hurt or harmed or even emotionally scarred. Um. You know, we have sometimes this picture of God who's so abstract that those things he, that they don't bother him. And that's true from like a strictly theological sense, but we also have to reconcile what the scripture says and what it, what the picture it paints. Um, at the very least, God, uh, reveals himself under the language of grieving, uh, injustice and grieving misery and grieving sorrow and suffering. So we should be a people that reflects that. Uh, although there are times when those things are necessary, both in the life of a Christian and then also as a result of sin in, we, we shouldn't be reveling in it and, and being excited about the fact that this is happening. So I, I might get some heat for this and I guess I don't really care all that much. Um, but I think this polarized like. Every person who's scooped up by ice is, is a terrible, awful criminal. And it doesn't really matter what their story is. And then anyone who's scooped up by ice is just a total victim. And it doesn't really matter what their story is like neither of those polls are true for most of the situations, um, to, you know, the story probably drift towards one side or another, and they're not all like right in the middle. But, um, the, the truth is that the world and life is complex and we shouldn't treat it as though it's, it's simple. It really is not, in most cases,  [00:07:30] Jesse Schwamb: it's a good reminder that there are places that are not here. That there are people, as you said, that are experiencing a different kind of suffering and your rights. Of course, if we're to be the kind of people that even ourselves are taking on our lips that we want to follow our Lord Jesus Christ, then the example that he gives for us is to think about, to identify with. To come alongside in prayer for those that are suffering. I think also for prayer for Christians in those communities to be strong and to exemplify the love of Christ in ways that they can. And so of course, I immediately go to Isaiah 53, and that's also about really the ubiquity of suffering in our world, but this massive desire on the part of God in an unreserved way to identify with that kind of suffering. So in verse four, the famous verses, surely our griefs, he himself bore what? A statement, right? Yeah. Like the grief that we're talking about now, that we're not alone. The grief of those who in the midst of this kind of traumatic, uh, sorrow and our sorrows, he carried. We ourselves steamed him, stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastising for our peace fell upon him, and by his wounds, we are healed. All of us, like sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way, but Yahweh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him. And who doesn't have iniquity? All of us do. So this reminder that we serve a God who can parse out and understand the suffering the best, who is both just and justifier, and what is left to us then is to submit to him, to worship him, to pray that in that great grief, that our world experiences, that he himself would draw close as he has already promised to do, and that his spirit would come with both comforts and conviction to bring all his children onto himself, even in difficult situations like this. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.  [00:09:25] Affirmations and Denials Continued [00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Well, on that note, Jesse, are you affirming or denying something? There's no good transition there.  [00:09:30] Jesse Schwamb: No, it, it's heavy. I hear you. And the problem is partly in our culture right now is you can't, I understand your all, all, both of our desires right now to be measured in what we say because maybe we have opinions, maybe we don't. But the bottom line is I'm not sure that opinions even help that much in this type of situation because the complexities involved here. And all I think that's left to say is just that it's hard. And I wish there was more I could do. I, I wish this kind of thing wasn't happening. And I, I understand too. I'm not naive enough to think that's not just happening here, but all over the world, these kind of things take place at any given day. And if, if we are so fortunate not to have to contend with them, then we are just very fortunate and we all take that as blessing. It doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility to pray and to, I think in some ways try to identify with that suffering if only through our prayers, reminding ourselves that, like you said, we all need to save, we all do. All of us, you and me and all those involved in this, it's absolutely necessary. It's part of what we're talking about tonight, right? We're saying like, Lord God as father, come. Come in your mercy, come quickly, come and heal. Come and restore. Come and make right. Come and judge, come in comfort. That's what we're asking the father to do. So it's, it's heavy, but we need those kind of affirmations and denials from time to time. So I,  [00:10:43] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: I appreciate you being willing to bring that into the chat.  [00:10:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: You want my affirmation into Yeah.  [00:10:51] Tony Arsenal: I feel like I can't, I, I mean, I'll be honest, like I, I think people might be surprised at my overall perspective on this. And again, I'm not gonna get into it here, and, and I really am being honest when I say, like, if you wanna reach out to me privately, I'm, I'm not shy about my perspective on this. I'm happy to share it, but I think it's just heavy. And I felt the same way about this during the George Floyd riots. You know, like I grew up in Minneapolis and. It's been a long time since I've been super familiar with Minneapolis, but, and I, like, I grew up on, on the east side of the cities, which is the St. Paul side. So even, even saying I grew up in Minneapolis is not super accurate, but there are times when I look at the news coverage and I can see I, I recognize the landmarks, I recognize, um, the street layout, and I go, I know what street that is. And there's something, there's something heavier about watching this kind of news coverage and this kind of event when this is the place you grew up. And when, when there are people there that you know, that aren't just names, that they're people with a history, that you're part of their history and they're part of your history, right? There's something heavy about that. And I think what's been impressed on me and maybe why I am, why I am reflective on this is. Even if those people are not a part of our history, they're part of someone's history. Right. They're, they're of  course,  that that person you saw, and, and I'll just say it like again, I'm not making commentary on the rightness or the wrongness or the justified ness or not justified of, uh, the most recent ice involved shooting. Um, but that person had a family like that, that person that was killed was an image bearer and had a family, and he had perspectives and he had opinions, and he was a person who, um. Death is terrible. Like all of those things are true regardless of whether he made a good decision to go out that day or a foolish decision to go out that day, whether he was antagonizing ice or whether he wasn't like whatever the situation was, it's still true that he had a family who is mourning him, um, and he was an image bearer, and now that's done. Like he's, I mean, he's still an image bearer, but like now he's gone and his, his life on earth and his history here is over. And that's a tragedy, like no matter how we slice it, that's a tragedy. And I guess I'm just really sick of people acting as though, and, and I think most people are doing this for. Political posturing reasons. I think people who wanna paint this as though it's good versus evil and that there's only simple answers in this, they're doing it because it suits a political narrative. And I'm not even making a commentary on whether or not that's good or, or wise or bad. Like I, that that's not even the point. But that's a lot of what's driving this. And I, I think as Christians we can be and should be political. I think we should be involved in politics in so far that God calls us to. There's nothing wrong with that. But we, we don't have the liberty to do politics the way the world does politics. If we're gonna be involved in political action, whether that's formally by seeking office or whether that's informally by. Making commentary. We still have to be Christians while we do it. We still have to, we still have to follow God's law while we do it. And that includes both the sixth Commandment and the ninth commandment. All of those things are true. And I guess I'm just really frustrated seeing some Christians or some people who call themselves Christians. I, the only reason I say that is not to necessarily call their salvation into question. It's people who are identifying as Christians. I just have no knowledge of, it's just random screen names on Twitter. Some of them are probably bots, right? But there are people who identify, who are identifying themselves as Christians who are. Acting as though the death of an image bearer is not a tragedy. And, and I, I can't think of a situation even when a hardened criminal is, is executed, even when justice is served by the death of an individual, it's still a tragedy and like a cosmic sense. That's not how it was supposed to be. It's not God's design for humans to perish and to, to, you know, to cease to be like, that's, that's just not the way it's supposed to be. So it's heavy. I do want you to save me and get us out of this. Hopefully you've got some light, fun affirmation to get us back on track, but I've just, just been weighing on me and, and I feel like, I feel like sometimes we do have a platform and we have a responsibility to use it to, to make some statements to, to force us to grapple with these things. I mean, I not like, it's a huge platform. We have like four or 500 regular listeners. It's not like we have a big reach, but we have a reach and we think, I think that has means we have a responsibility too.  [00:15:52] Jesse Schwamb: Also, this is how you and I talk, isn't it?  [00:15:54] Tony Arsenal: It's true. That's also true.  [00:15:56] Jesse Schwamb: This, and we're being true to the fact that we talk about the things that come up, that grieve us, that hurt us, that help us to process our faith and also our struggles in the midst of that faith. [00:16:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:16:08] Jesse Schwamb: To make sure that we're honoring the Lord Jesus Christ in like difficult times and difficult circumstances of which again, by some, in almost all relative comparison, it's not that difficult for us, for you and I except that we have to contend with these things. Everybody should. So I think when you bring it forward, you remind us of that. And I, for one, I'm grateful. So in that spirit, I don't know how my. Affirmation or denial could be heavier than that. Like we would, this would take a really weird turn. If I had one that was like, well, hold on, because I wade into so, and part of maybe its lightness is I'm gonna just break the rules. I'm gonna do an affirmation in denial, which used to be the old school method, but the affirmation is like, dry by, you rarely notice it happens. So I'm just gonna drop it real quickly. So I've spoken before about two great series by author Brandon Sanderson, who writes amazing fictions in the fantasy genre. Uh, those two are miss Born in Stormlight Archive. So in case you know him as an author and you've been living under a rock, I just wanna say in passing that Apple TV just picked up, uh, some rights to those two series and they're gonna be making movies and, uh, television series. And I high host because it's Apple and apparently Sanderson is also going to write, produce, and consult and approve and all this stuff. So it's gonna be good. So if you're not into reading. But you've heard me talk about them before. You can just wait and if you are into reading, get super stoked. 'cause you're gonna see people like, you know, VIN and Ellen in person. Apparently it's gonna be great. So that's news in passing. Nothing else. Say  [00:17:36] Tony Arsenal: Vin and Ellen. Like Vin Diesel and Ellen DeGeneres are starring in  [00:17:40] Jesse Schwamb: this show? No, no. Being the character in Ellen. Ellen,  [00:17:45] Tony Arsenal: you're on like a first name basis with Vin and Ellen.  [00:17:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I mean, if you read, I mean, if you know, you know, if you know, you know, so you have time to read, read, miss, board, read Storm, like archive. It's actually, there's a lot of books, but, but I'm super stoked that this is gonna happen. So that was just a, that's the drive by I, I gotta leave it there. We're gonna, I've already drawn like just sped past the house, so here's the real denial. I'm also going denial. It is lighter than yours, Tony, but I think that you'll agree with me, but I'm not entirely sure. So we're gonna find out.  [00:18:13] Cold Weather and Personal Preferences [00:18:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I think the best way I can summarize this denial is like the dislike or vitriol, that's too strong a word, but I'm denying against the, what I think is too much dislike against. The cold weather. So, so hear me out on this in lots of places of the world right now, it's cold, it's super cold, it's colder than average for many people. And I get that that can be uncomfortable. But there's something for me where I've always found the cold to be kind of life giving. It makes you feel alive. Like you go outside, uh, to take out the trash on a cold night, you breathe in that air and yeah, maybe it burns your lungs a little bit. You look up at the clear sky. There's something about a beauty of the cold that I don't find the same in winter. Also, you can't get comfy in the, or in the summer, rather, you can't get comfy in the summer. It just doesn't happen. So like even now in my makeshift bedroom studio, it's a nice 61 degrees. I got a sweatshirt on, like I, and I know what the temperature is in the room you're at. It's definitely  [00:19:13] Tony Arsenal: older than 61 degrees probably.  [00:19:15] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's around that temp probably. So I, I know that it's like easy. I think it's just like easy to pick on the cold. But I think they, you know, of course there's something that people say about like, the fire is purifying. I don't know. I always kind of think that way about the cold. It's, it's special. And I think there's something about leaning in and appreciating it, both like the joy then and, uh, appreciating the blessing of having someplace warm to be, but also this amazing juxtaposition of just being out in temperatures that cuts you a little bit, ah, I don't know. There's something about that. I don't get that with the, the heat, but What's that? You, have I gone too far? Am I not?  [00:19:52] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. No, I think there's a sweet spot. Like, I think, I think there's a such thing as too cold. Um, you know, I think, uh,  [00:20:01] Jesse Schwamb: what, what's too cold? Fahrenheit style. Sorry. We, we can, we'll, we'll do the conversion of Celsius.  [00:20:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I'm not gonna do the conversion of Celsius. This is a America. Um, I think probably like. 15 to 20 degrees is the sweet spot. I think if you get much colder than that for me. Oh, that's, I  [00:20:19] Jesse Schwamb: thought you'd say  [00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I think if you get much colder than that, for me it, it becomes, and maybe this is 'cause I have kids and so like, it, it becomes a whole different game to try to get kids into the car when it's, it's colder than 15 degrees. Um, you can get a, you know, you can get away with like rushing the kid out to the car and just wrapping the jacket around them. Something people who don't have toddlers don't realize is you can't put your toddler in the car seat in a winter jacket. So like, it gets to be cumbersome.  [00:20:49] Jesse Schwamb: Gotta do costume change. [00:20:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like if it gets much colder than that, then the joy of being outside, I guess my, my threshold and maybe. It probably isn't a, like an a specific temperature, but when I take the dog out at night, if I feel like I have to put a jacket on to do that, that's when it's too cold. And, but I agree with you in principle that there's something refreshing about standing outside when it's crisp and cold. Not just cool, but cold. Something about the, the, uh, the alertness of your nerves and like there's something that just like wakes you up in a really nice way, um, that you don't get in the heat. I feel like in. Converse heat. So like, I think maybe the equivalent of 15 degrees, if I was talking about when it's too hot, would be like 90, 95 degrees would feel the same, like, would be on the same end, end of the spectrum. You don't walk out and go, ah, it's 95. Like, you walk out and you feel oppressed. You feel like it's heavy on your shoulders. It drains you of your life. Um, I feel like it's cold. There's a sweet spot. There is no sweet spot where like, it, it gets so hot that you feel great about it. So I think, I feel you in pr in principle. I'm, I'm not sure, I guess maybe you have a, maybe there's a sweet spot for you two. Like I don't think you're, we're not talking like negative 60 degrees air temperature or something like that, but yeah, I think I'm with you.  [00:22:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, but I, but I am, I think talking about a little bit of like cold face slapping, if you know what I mean. Yeah. I mean there's, there's something famously about the heats. Where you, once you get out in it, there's not much you can do if it is oppressive. Right. So, you know, if you're going out, you're exercising or just out and about. It's not like you can like strip down entirely and even then you might not be comfortable. Right. Obviously where the cold is a little bit different. Hopefully you can prepare yourself. You can put a more clothes. I, I'm with you. I don't know what that temperature would be for me, but it's just funny around here. It's every, every kind of interaction ends with a stay warm out there. Will you? Yeah. Like, I guess we do that in the heat as well, but I'm, sometimes I'm like, no, it's, it's okay to feel what you feel and it's nice to have, uh, the seasons of cold. I don't know if I would like living in a place where it didn't get at least a little bit once in a while, shockingly cold because there's so beautiful about that shock. So I think 15 is fine. I'm with you. That's maybe the right for all of our like continental listeners, those out in the rest of the world that's negative nine degrees Celsius. So, you know, take that for what you will. But it's, it's okay. I guess I'm saying it's okay. We can, we can just be like, you know what, it's cold, but it might be good for us. Does that make sense? Yeah.  [00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: I think on a, a totally different temperature related bit here, I think we should stop saying, uh, that it is 20 degrees and instead we should be, we should say, every time it's 12 degrees below the temperature at which saline freezes at sea level or whatever the, whatever the weird calculation is that makes 32 degrees freezing instead of zero degrees. I joke about like this being America, but like the Fahrenheit scale is cr is whacked out and it's wild, crazy. It makes no sense. It's wild. It, it makes sense in the laboratory setting that it was created in, but like, it just doesn't make any sense from like a, just a logical human beings think this way. Um, perspective. Um, but I think I'm with you. I think, I guess maybe where I'm, where my head is at is like. When it's like negative 10 degrees, and I'm not talking about windchill actually, I think negative 10 degrees air temperature when there's no wind is probably not all that uncomfortable. Like, really? Right. Like I  agree.  I feel like I would not feel totally uncomfortable just walking out to the mail. Like I wouldn't put a jacket on to run out to the mailbox and grab the mail if it was 10 degrees below zero and there was no wind. Um, but whatever it is, like when you're at a low temperature and then you come back up a little bit, your body's like, ah, like you can tolerate that. I feel like when it's 105 degrees and then it drops to 95 degrees, there's not that same effect where you're like,  [00:24:48] Jesse Schwamb: yes.  [00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah. Like,  [00:24:50] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:24:50] Tony Arsenal: That, that, my favorite part of the season, this is like super nerdy total, like Northerner Yankee talk. My favorite part of the season is that first like. We had it in January this year, but like that first period of time where it pops back up into the mid twenties mm-hmm. And everybody is like wearing shorts and a t-shirt for like two days. Yeah.  Right.  Um, or like people are driving all with their windows rolled down on their car because it like, or that's like when you open your house to get all the like winter stale air out. Um, that's my favorite part of the season. Maybe that's what, maybe that's what I'm talking about with you, but I think I'm with you. I think the cold is refreshing in a really kind of organic way. It wakes you up in a good way.  [00:25:30] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think maybe it's okay and maybe we need it. And I've thought about that a lot. Isn't it strange, but also endearing that the way that we feel, the temperature, the way that we actually experience it, is relative to the season. Yeah. Because you know, you might have, like, if it was like 61, 62 in your house and like the dead of August, you'd be like, man. So refreshing. But in winter you're prone to say, Ooh, there's a little nip in the air, you know? And it's like, what? Same temperature. It's just that like you're oriented, all of your experience is oriented right now to your seasonal reality and circumstances. So I think I love temperature change. So I'm, I, and I also would say maybe it's just growing up in New England, I much prefer the cold than the heat. I mean,  [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:26:10] Jesse Schwamb: oppressive heat where it feels like you're inside a dog's mouth to me is in no way preferable or has hegemony over going outside in the the minus 10. So,  [00:26:21] Tony Arsenal: yeah, I  [00:26:22] Jesse Schwamb: agree. Enjoy it. Loved ones. Wherever you're at it, just enjoy it.  [00:26:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I also think, um, it's funny how you talk about temperature being relative or exp experience of temperature being relative because, you know, we're, it's winter we're trying to save money. Like fuel oils is crazy expensive in New England and  Right. Um, all of the fuel oil in this area comes from Canada. So there's all the tariff stuff going on. And so I'm trying to keep my, you know, trying to keep our thermostat down. And so I have it set to like 63 at night, which is lower than I, I think I would've set it in the past. And I remember like the other day, I was up in the middle of the night with one of the kids and I was like, oh man, it's so cold in here. And I looked at the, the thermostat and I was like, wait a second. Like, I set my air conditioner to 63 in the summer,  right.  And I keep my room that, like, I keep our bedroom that cool, right? It's a small bedroom. We have a nice air conditioner, so we keep that a room that cool. But in the winter that feels cold and I'm trying to turn up the heat. There's, there's something theological there too. Something about not being satisfied. Maybe there's like a, there's a, an argument. For dissatisfaction, like CS Lewis style, there's an argument that because we can never be comfortable with the temperature, there must therefore be a heaven where temperatures is perfect or something like that. [00:27:35] Jesse Schwamb: I actually that's, that's pretty good. That's better than I always could come up with. I was gonna go the direction of like the rare jewel cont contentment, like, there  [00:27:42] Tony Arsenal: you go.  [00:27:42] Jesse Schwamb: Puritan style. Obviously that's the best segment We're gonna get into our conclusion of yes, chapter 15 and this rice baked parable of lostness. [00:27:54] Returning to the Parable of the Lost Son [00:27:54] Jesse Schwamb: And we're, we're gonna talk about the father, so I'm just gonna take us right there. Ready? Everybody. We're speeding ahead. We're just gonna go right to verse 18 because I think it's good for us to put in our ears again just the end of this parable so we can see and hear this interaction of the father with his two sons. And I'm gonna advance us to the point where the first son has gone away. He squandered all his living, he comes to himself and so then he has this little conversation while he's, uh, you know, presumably with the pigs looking at the pods that they eat, that he wishes he could as well. He says, I'll rise up and go to my father and I'll say to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired. So he rose up and he came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us eat and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he's been found and then began to celebrate. Now, his older son was in the field and when he came and approached the house, he heard music at dancing and summoning one of the servants. He began inquiring what these things could be, and he said to him, your brother has come and your father has killed the fatten calf because he has received him back safe in sound. But he became angry and was not wanting to go in, and his father came out and began pleading with him. He answered and said to his father, look, for so many years I've been serving you and never have I neglected a command of yours. And yet never have you given me a young goat so that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fat and calf for him. And he said to him, child, you are always with me. And all that is mine is yours. But what we had to celebrate and rejoice for this brother of yours was dead and is alive and was lost and has been found. [00:29:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think it's important, you know, we're kind of gonna jump in here and really focus on the father and we made, we made the point last week that this. This parable really probably is about the older son. Like the punchline of this parable is about the older son because it's a parable that's told in response to the Pharisees to shame them for acting like the older brother. So even though the, the rest of the parable exists that the main point of the parable is probably found in. This lack of rejoicing over the lost brother who was, uh, found. And that lines up with the main point of the other two parables in this sort of triplet of parables is the rejoicing element, right? There's the, there's the, the shepherd who rejoices when he finds his lost sheep, the angels in heaven that rejoice, you know, they're not part of the parable, but it's explained that the angels will rejoice. And then this woman who rejoices over her lost coin and invites all her friends over to do the same. Um, the flip side of this, yes, the parable has a lot to say about how. The father rejoices how he throws this big feast, but the, the, the punchline of this parable is that the older son refused to come in. And so it's, it's painting this picture of like, there's these two parables where the only logical answer is to rejoice, and then there's this parable where it seems like, yeah, the only logical answer is to rejoice. And then there's this totally irrational, insane reaction of the, the older brother to not rejoice, but all of that said. That only functions like that. Punchline only works if you also understand the setup. I don't know if you've ever had this, this happen, Jesse, where you're, you're trying to tell a story that has kind of a funny punchline or you're, you're telling a sort of a narrative joke and either you miss something in the setup or the, the person doesn't get something in the setup and so the joke just doesn't land, or the story just doesn't have the, the impact it's supposed to. And I think like that's kind of where we're at on this is, yes, we've talked about the punchline and that is the punchline, but we can't fully understand the impact. The insanity of the older brother's response.  [00:32:12] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:32:12] Tony Arsenal: Um, if we don't understand the, just the grace that the father shows both to the younger son, which we've talked a lot about, and to the older son, which we've also talked a lot about, but understanding the nature of the father beyond just like his response, I think is, is really vital. And that's where we're gonna go tonight.  [00:32:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I think that's really good setup. It, there's this posture of the father, this watchful mercy, which is for both of his children, for the son, that's away. Also for the son that's at home, he notices them both, one coming, one missing. And so I find it interesting that, like you said, the father's compassion is described even before the first son finishes his rehearsed confession. And it's clear that we're seeing that God's mercy is, is not hired by repentance.  [00:32:56] The Father's Compassion and Divine Initiative [00:32:56] Jesse Schwamb: Repentance is like this appointed pathway by which mercy is received and it's extended to both of the children in a way. And so in the first, the father's seeing and running really portrays clearly for us that divine initiative, not that the son is contributing some kind of merit, but that the father's already disposed to welcome. The returning sinner, and he is already disposed to welcome his angry older son into the fray. It's almost a warning as if to say, you know, similar maybe to what Cain receives, like sin is crouching at the door, a desires to master over you. Don't go this way. Don't do this thing. Come and enjoy, come and celebrate. But you're right, the whole setup is in the father's posture. And then of course, like coheres with that wider biblical portrait of God's fatherly compassion, that he's a father that shows compassion to his children, that the ones he loves, he shows, or the ones that love him. Rather, he shows grace and blessing and mercy to a thousand generations while only punishing the next several contiguous generations that he's a loved us with an everlasting kind of lavish love. So there's this emphasis right from the beginning, which I think is setting up that punchline that the father's compassion is free. It's prior, it's rooted in God's character, not in the sinner's performance here and, and they're both sinners. That's clear. So you're right. It, it's almost like maybe we should see it coming. Yeah, maybe they should have seen it coming. But that is all necessary to get to the end result where you get the like, you know, big kind of gotcha moment.  [00:34:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think too, um. We rightfully look at the response of the father to the younger son's return, um, as sort of like the locust classicist of the father's character here, right. The, the, the seminal moment in this, this interaction. But we, we, um, and we're even doing this tonight, right? We started at verse 18, but we start to see glimpses of the father's character earlier in the parable.  [00:34:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: Right? Of course.  [00:34:45] The Parable's Punchline: The Older Son's Response [00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: So first of all, the parable is, is, um, the punchline of the parable is about the older son and the older son's response. But the parable starts out saying there was a man. The man is not one of the sons. There was a man who had two sons.  [00:34:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:34:59] Tony Arsenal: So this is a parable that starts by describing this father as one who had two sons.  [00:35:04] The Father's Grace and the Younger Son's Request [00:35:04] Tony Arsenal: And then we see in the response of the father to this, this younger son's request already, there's an act of grace. Right. And you know, we've kind of made this comment that there's, this is sort of like a, a lesson in systematic theology, um, in soteriology baked into this parable. But like the fact that the father doesn't reject the son's request to divide up the inheritance early. Um, I I, I've read a lot of commentaries on this that would say like the request of the son was so audacious and disrespectful, that like in Israel, it would've been appropriate for this father to bring him up basically on like capital charges and have him executed, right? Like, like Leviticus style and. I don't know whether that's all true or not. Like there's a lot of speculation that has to happen with those kinds of cultural, um, extrapolations. But in either case, this father would've been well within his rights. Um, and again, like we've, we've made the point, like this isn't necessarily a lesson in great parenting. Um, but the father would've been well within his rights to laugh the sun out of his room and be like, of course I'm not dividing up your inheritance. Like, I'm still living, I still need this to live on. Uh, but he doesn't, he grants the request and, and this is a little bit of speculation, I think, but what motivation would there be to grant this request other than loving his son and not wanting to have this relational disruption? Right. This father.  [00:36:36] The Cost of the Younger Son's Departure [00:36:36] Tony Arsenal: Starts off this parable by granting this son's request at, at great cost to himself, right? We've, we've mentioned it in the inheritance laws. Um, the older son gets two thirds of the estate, and so the younger son or the older son gets a double portion. So if we assume that there are only two sons, which it says he had two sons, we, we don't have any reason to think there's more in view, then the younger son is leaving with a full third of this, of this man's estate, um, and has to be a third of the estate that he can take with him. So whatever he's granted in this request to, to give him his property, he's taking all, you know, at least a third of this man's liquid assets, probably more than a third of his liquid assets. Um, with him, that's a huge, huge amount of, uh, of your own personal, uh, assets that go with you that he, and he just does it. He just does it. And I think this paints a picture for us of.  [00:37:36] Theological Implications of the Father's Actions [00:37:36] Tony Arsenal: Again, we have to be theologically careful. God does not suffer loss when we depart from him. Right? It doesn't affect God in a, in a absolute proper sense when sinners, you know, are, are distant from him. Um, but there is a reality that this father in the parable grants his son's request a foolish request, right? And I think he probably understood it was a foolish request. He grants him this request at great cost to himself. And how often do we depart from our father at great, great cost? I'm doing air quotes. If you're not watching this on the video, A great cost to our Heavenly Father in that we now breach communion with him. Or if we're not, if we're not, uh, regener Christians and we persist in our sin, like the, his image is marred. His image is marred in creation. Uh, he, his glory is not proclaimed by an image bearer that still has the same chief end that all the rest of us do, which is to glorify God and, and enjoy him forever. There's a, there's a, um, an accommodated language analog loss that the father suffers when that happens. That's a picture of what's going on in this parable as well.  [00:38:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that that's absolutely right on. I mean, there's, there's like, you're, you're drawing us something back to this. Juxtaposition between this kind of open, gratuitous rebellion of the first son without like us appropriate appreciating the more like subtle rebellion that's equally sinful of the second. [00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And  [00:39:14] Jesse Schwamb: that's a problem. And, and that's really what's God is addressing in here. He c he comes for both. The father comes for both in his own way.  [00:39:22] The Father's Love and the Running Controversy [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Can we, since we're talking about the father, can we talk about a pet peeve of mine? I have with some interpretation of this? Yeah. And you can tell me whether you agree, disagree. Okay. So  [00:39:30] Tony Arsenal: it's peeve all the pets.  [00:39:31] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's so, it's, it's um, it's about the running. Yeah. There's a lot written about the running and I think a lot of it is good. Some of it might be like going too far, but I understand. Let's just put out there, we can all agree that in that culture, a dignified patriarch running is like socially beneath him. I get all that right. What I find though interesting is I see a difference here in how we describe it. There's some, I think that would describe that as like undignified, right? I, I don't see it this way. It's not like David's style. Like, I'll become even more undignified than this. I will, you know, tie up my robe and I'll go running and I'll embarrass myself or my son. What I think we ought to understand, or at least is I'm interpreting it, is a difference between like condescension and not decorum. So in this parable, uh, I don't think this is embarrassment. It is a condescending love. It's God's willingness to cross the distance that our sin has created and that that fits. We know that I think we should pull in all the, all the Old Testament where God is, we're repeatedly describing as kind of like stooping to save. Whether that's he's boring Israel up as a man, carries his son, or God's compassion grows warm like from Hosea. But I don't see this as in decorum. I see it as condescension and I, I think that's worth mentioning. [00:40:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I think, I think whether it's this or. There are other parables where this happens, where like people extrapolate, and I guess maybe I did this just now just a little bit, so I'm not like bashing on people too much, but I think we can make way too much out of a, out of a, um, somewhat speculative point. Sure. Like, like I, like I said, like, do we know for sure that this, uh, this request to divide the inheritance would've been a capital offense,  right?  I, I, I don't think so. Do we have a record of a child asking to have their inheritance early and then being put to I, I don't think so. None of the commentaries that I've read point to an actual account of that happening. And I think this is probably like the same thing. Like, yeah, I guess like the head of a family and like, yes. All of the commentaries that I've read that make this point talk about how like you'd have to gird your loins and like  [00:41:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.  [00:41:43] Tony Arsenal: Like you, there's almost like a level of exposure, of course that happens when you have to do that, like,  [00:41:47] Jesse Schwamb: right. [00:41:48] Tony Arsenal: Okay. But I, I think I'm with you that even if that's in play here, it's not, it's not really a point that the parable is making.  Right.  The point that the parable is making is that the love of this father drives him to exert himself and close that distance. Whether that's a condescension, like we might talk about it theologically, um, or whether it is a sort of like a self self-abasement or a self-effacement. Um, I don't know, but I also don't know that it matters that much. That's not really the point. And I think, um. When I think about this as a dad, um, this makes so much sense to me too. Like my, um, my kid does something that is obnoxious and is so frustrating and I'm so angry. And then sometimes he looks at me and he goes, daddy, I'm sorry. And it's all gone. Like, it's all gone in a second. Like, it, it really is most of the time. Like, and there is something about this that I have such, I guess, let me put it this way. I have such a tough time thinking that being a dad has emotionally changed so much in the last 2000 years that the, the, the, um. Natural instincts of fatherhood that God gives us are so different now that any father would not run to their child who is returning like this man. I think when he says at, when it's said at the end that your brother who was dead is now alive, like I don't think that that is an exaggeration.  [00:43:28] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:43:29] Tony Arsenal: I think the assumption made in this family, in the context of this parable is that when this son left, they were never gonna see him again because this was a foolish decision. Right. They knew what he was gonna do with the money. They knew he was gonna run out of the money. And in the, in the ancient world, when you're in a far country and you've got no money. You don't have a lot of prospects, even the men in the world, you know, all, all that's made about like the social difficulties of, uh, widowed and orphaned women in the ancient world. Like yeah. But like a, a single dude out in some far country in the middle of a famine with no family support structure is gonna starve to death.  Right. So  I think, I think when I see this interpretations that make this running movement towards the sun to be somehow unexpected or unusual or something along those lines, um, they don't resonate with me. [00:44:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, me neither.  [00:44:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't know that they really have ever have resonated with me, but. They just don't resonate with me. And I think this sort of like he com he committed this action. That's sort of semi shameful.  [00:44:38] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:44:38] Tony Arsenal: Right. That's almost like, right. I just don't, I just don't buy it. That doesn't seem like the shocking part of the parables usually have kind of a shocking element to them. This does not seem like the shocking element to me.  [00:44:49] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. And if we take this and say, well he's done something really embarrassing and that's what shows the love. 'cause he's. He's so degraded himself. Then what are we really saying about God? If he's meant to be even in an emblematic way, a representation of God, like that's problematic. I think though I'm with you in tracking with what you're saying though I don't have children myself. I'm just considering if you could put yourself in the place of that father, or just imagine yourself, like you're out carrying groceries in one day and at the end of your driveway you see a person you never thought you'd see again, or a friend you haven't seen in so long, or somebody in broken relationship that you really thought you'd never see. I, I'm guessing what would happen is. You would just turn on your heels, get on your getaway sticks and you would run toward them. You, you went in that moment think like, uh, this is gonna be embarrassing, but the embarrassment is worth it. You would just go, you drop the groceries, you'd let the milk sit there, you would just take off. [00:45:44] The Father's Unconditional Love and Reconciliation [00:45:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and that's what shows this love. It is like a condescension to just move and to go because like you said, to your point, if he anticipated that his son might have been gone from this world, then I'm not sure if he was sitting by the window every day just kind of melancholy looking out, you know, with his hand resting on or his head resting on his, his hand, but still was probably doing something and turned and saw him and just went, and that was it. And it was a reaction born out of the purest kind of love and condescension that would just go. I think then that's what flows into this whole response of like the kiss and the reconciliation before negotiation. You know, the son expects to bargain. Just make me like one of your Hy servants. But the fathers embrace, like interrupts the whole process. And of course he just keeps showing us that this reconciliation for both the older and the younger son, it's not a wage for both of them. It's not a wage, it's a gift. And the father, what I find really interesting in both of their cases, he doesn't deny the sin like you're saying. He says, this son of mine was dead, which I think is both literal and figurative. [00:46:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:46:44] Jesse Schwamb: The sense that he was, he was like cast outside. He, he was outside of himself, outside of the family, outside of the kingdom. But what he does deny is the son's proposed status. Downgrade. Yeah. You know, grace always restores sonship and so I, I think the parable here is resisting like two errors at once that you and I have talked about a lot, which would be kind of this like weird, like lukewarm omi and sentimental sentimentality. Like sin doesn't matter, right. People like do what you want. It's all good. The father calls it death and lostness. Yeah. And  [00:47:15] Tony Arsenal: you  [00:47:15] Jesse Schwamb: kind of compare that against like legalism, like, well you have to earn your way back. It's good enough to, you know, have grace and mercy, but you have to do something to, to accept it. You have to elevate yourself to the place deserving poor. You have to come forward with empty hands. The father restores before the son can even offer terms.  [00:47:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:47:32] Jesse Schwamb: So in both ways, the father is going out in one way. There's damage that's already been done through the youngest son, but in the other way I see it for the oldest son, the father's basically saying, don't do this, please don't do this. And what I think is the most telling in that way. Is at the very end of this chapter in the we, the last phrase that we have, the father says, but we had to celebrate and rejoice not, but I not, but like me and the family, like he pulls him in inclusively already and says, you ought to be celebrating. Which of course is that? Like we rock hard, sharp witted, like fiery tongue that's coming against the scribes in the Pharisees. But the father is condescending. He's not embarrassed by any of this.  [00:48:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:48:15] Jesse Schwamb: He's, he's condescending and proud, I think, to show his love. And again, I think any of one of us would get on our getaway sticks and run. And like you're saying, that is just the shadow, that's the argument from the lesser to the greater. So how much more, again, do we see this father pushing us against antinomian behavior and also against legalism? It's all right there for us.  [00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:48:34] The Parable's Broader Theological Context [00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: And you know what, I think too, maybe to just put a, an exclamation point on this whole little train of thought we have here. Um, the father is not like. I think these, these interpretations that have this running out and embracing him to be some really unexpected, unusual semis shameful act. Mm-hmm. I think they just miss some of like the immediate context. Right. So the father arises, uh, well, the son was still a long way off. His father saw and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed to him. The son said, father, I have sinned against you before heaven and earth, and I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. The father said to his servants. Right. They didn't walk back to the village. They didn't walk back to the house. The, the picture is that like the servants ran right after the father, like right. Everybody recognizes that this son is back and is alive when, when the, the son, the older son is coming in from the field. It's not the father that he asks what happened? The, the servant says, your brothers come home. He's been received back safe and, and sound. Everybody is celebrating. And it's not just that the servants are happy to have a free meal and, and a, you know, a better, some, some dancing and some wine like everybody is celebrating. And so this idea that like the celebration, the running to the embracing element of this is somehow unusual. That totally contradicts the fact that the, the older son's, um, the older son's response is the only, is like, that's the insane response in the parable,  [00:50:08] Jesse Schwamb: right? Preach.  [00:50:08] Tony Arsenal: Right. The, the, the sane expected response that everybody has is overjoyed. Um, just, uh, elation that this, this lost son has come home except this boneheaded older brother who refuses to come in and celebrate. So I think that, and, you know, we could even talk about the context of the father, like the fathers created this household with, with also with these servants where they're excited, they're happy, right? And like, let's not put too fine a point on it. If these are slaves, which we have no reason to think, they're not like slavery was a reality in the ancient world. These are slaves. Their livelihood and their existence depends on the, the livelihood and existence of this, this father of this landowner, he gives away a third of it. Their, their meals are getting leaner too. So they have every reason to be frustrated and angry with this older son as well, but they're not how, how amazing of a context of a family, of a household has this father created where even the servants who are there. Are rejoicing over the return of this son. Right? The one person who doesn't rejoice, the one person who we're, we should be surprised is not excited, is the older son. And I think that in itself says a lot about this father and the other. The other point I wanted to make is there is an element, um, of. Almost like the older son's response. You know, I just talked about how that's the insane response. It's almost like the father is surprised by it, right? And he goes out and he's like, what do you mean you're not exci? Like he's, he is, he's shock, sort of shocked that this son is not willing to come in and, and rejoice. And it, it's almost like it catches him off guard when his, his older son says, you've never even given me a young goat,  right? Because he's like, what are you talking about? Everything I have is yours. Like, it, like it doesn't even register with him that he had to offer that a, a young goat like you, it's almost like you didn't even even have to ask. Like you didn't even have to ask, it's already yours. You wanted a young goat to have a party with your friends, like, the flock is yours. Just take the young goat. There's this sense of, of sadness and surprise and. Um, betrayal almost in the words of the father of, I'm always with you. You are always with me, and all that's mine is yours. What do you mean you're not going to celebrate? Because all that's mine is yours, including this son who's come back. He's also yours, and you're not willing to celebrate. So I think there's so much in this parable about God's nature too. We often, um. We often treat God as though he sort of grudgingly saved us. And I think in a lot of theological circles, this takes, takes the form of kind of like pitting the son against the father, like the, the God, the Son against God, the Father in, in the idea that like. The son placated the father. And so like, because the father was wrathful and angry, and so Jesus had to come down and die and, and now the Father can love us. The reality is that the, the love of the Father, the love of God the father, um, is the motivating factor that, that drives the plan of redemption, right? And that's the same love of the Son and the same love of the spirit. But in, in the most famous verse in the Bible, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that's God the Father it's talking about,  right?  So it's, it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love for, for the elect. Um, it's not as though he was some frustrated, angry deity and his son somehow got the better of him and placated him. And that's exactly what we see in this parable. There is never a point in the parable where there's anything shown by the father except for love for his people. Including the servants. I mean, in a, in a real sense, the celebration is not like, all right, servants, get outta here. I'm gonna have a fatted calf with my son who's come back.  Right.  The celebration is for the whole household. So this tells us so much about God's nature. Once that old, old quote, the par the puritans say is, you know, wrath is God's alien work. Yes. Right. It's, it's not to say that wrath is somehow outside of God or it, it's, it's contrary to God, but it, it is his alien work. It's his work, but it's work that is sort of opposed to his natural inclination. I mean, that's a really risky way to talk about it, but it's sort of like. It's alien to God in a sense because it's alien to God's intention for the world, right? God's intention was, and again, it's so hard to even talk about this stuff, so I'm just gonna say people, we got 480 episodes of us, you  know,  us being really precise technical theology of, of impassability and inseparable operations. Like just right. Hear this in that context, it, it is God's intention. It was God's intention, right? It was not the way it was supposed to be that Adam fell. God knew it was gonna happen. It was part of his decree, it as part of his plan, but it also was not the way it was supposed to be. And I know those two statements are co decree, but I think you guys understand what I'm getting at because humans fell and that was not the way they were intended to be. God's wrath towards sin, which was never intended, is alien to his. Sort of inclinations. Again, it's really hard to talk about this stuff.  No,  but the father in this parable has no wrath to speak of, right? Like that's the, that's the crazy part about this parable. He has no wrath to speak of. He shows no wrath to the older son. He shows no wrath to the younger son. He has nothing but gracious disposition and an intention to redeem and rescue his children. And that's amazing,  [00:55:59] Jesse Schwamb: right? It's not like wrath is foreign to God. I agree with you. I think what you said I think was fine because this is something we hold intention it, but we're all saying that it is like alien to his primary disposition. It's not foreign to him. So like you said, the father is going out everywhere. It's all act of volitional love. He goes out to the younger, goes out to the elder. And in the, you know, former, the father's purpose is not only to just restore the prodigals, but also to unmasks the elder brothers slavery to wages, status, resentment. And it's a good reminder for all of us that legalism is now obedience. Right? It's a different kind of lostness. But the great encouragement is in both of those lostness, is that Jesus comes running, he comes out, he comes to restore. He comes in mercy first. Just say, come it back into the kingdom. And that lostness of self-righteousness and distance from the father's heart is equally saveable. Though it might look like it's some kind of respectable rebellion. It's not. And the point here, I, I think again, like when he gets to Jesus telling the story again, we gotta remember He's telling it when he says like, we had to celebrate. I wonder if he's looking in the eyes of the scribes of Pharisees because he basically, like we, all of us had to celebrate. Are you not celebrating? Now, all I can think of is like gladiator when he is like, are you not entertained? Do you know what I mean? Like, are you, are we not celebrating, you know, what's happening here in the kingdom of God where sinners are being restored, where the down and out, the downtrodden and the marginalized and the priors are coming back in and finding relief and restoration and redemption. Are we not celebrating? I think that's like the high calling, the exalted finale of this whole part of Luke 15. And there is an emphasis, especially in reform theology, which is right. Everything you just said. God's saving disposition is grounded in God's own will and love. It's not extracted some from kind of like human improvement or point of view or perspective, and that matters for Luke 15 because the parable can always be misread as God loves you once you come back. Right. The father's running corrects this. He's going out to the elder son corrects us in this. Let me just read from Ephesians chapter one starting at verse four. Just as God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be wholly and blameless before him in love by predestining us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, to himself according to the pleasure of His goodwill, to the praise and the glory of His grace, which he graciously bestowed on us in the beloved. That's it.  [00:58:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't think there's anything better to say than that. This is, um. It's funny, we could continue. I mean, we make this joke all the time, but it's not even a joke here. Like, we could continue to talk about this parable for many more weeks.  [00:58:51] Upcoming Discussions and Series Continuation [00:58:51] Tony Arsenal: We're not going to, I know like some people get a little bit of, uh, fatigue when we're going really deep diving in this, and I get that. Um, but, but there's so much here to unpack. So we are gonna keep marching through the parables. We're not totally done with this little trio of parables. Because if, if you remember, I don't even remember when it was, if you remember way back, like four months ago, three months ago, we were working our way through Matthew. We hadn't even got out of the first chapter of parables in Matthew,  right  when we had to jump over to Luke because of the way that it, it worked out. But Matthew uses these parables, not the parable of the, of the, um, father son, you know, whatever. Not this parable, but the parable of the lost sheep and the coins he uses. For a different reason. So we're gonna come back to those a little bit. We're gonna talk about that a little bit next week. Um, and, and then we're gonna keep plugging along so you're not so far into this series that if you missed, if this is your first episode and you want to go back and catch up, um, you can do that. There's not a huge, huge, huge amount of episodes, um, you know, set aside a work week worth of hours to, to go and listen to it. Um, you can trim that down if you can listen to a couple, couple times speed. Um, but we got a long way to go, so jump in with us. Grab your commentaries Next week we're gonna be back in Matthew 13, I think it was. Um, we're gonna be talking about the lost, the lost sheep and the lost coin and why it is that Matthew positions it differently than Luke does. So I'm excited about that. This is actually something that's been bubbling up in my head for a long time, so I'm excited to get it out. Then we're gonna keep plugging along in the parables. We're gonna keep going primarily in Matthew, but we'll jump in in other places when it's appropriate. Uh, and we're gonna keep going until we finish 'em all. It's like, it's like the Pokemon version of podcasting. You gotta catch 'em all and, and it's the parables instead of, you know, little Pokemon creatures. [01:00:49] Jesse Schwamb: Catch 'em all. I'm not trying to be that guy honest, but just in case people are attracted with us. 'cause we, we don't want the commentary. It's Matthew 18. This will be. 18, I mean, the eight and the three look pretty close. So I, I think they're right on. Remember everybody's, I, I'm just picturing now like this is a game show. You know, like game shows sometimes have that like al like there's a question up some point in the game show. I think everybody's gonna remember that. The question like, does it parallel? So we're gonna be going to not just like one version of this, but the different versions and the reason why I think we've been like pretty dutiful trying to set up what we think is like a groundwork by deliberately choosing one of the gospels to like kind of center us. And then we're gonna be going around that because Matthew 18, while it is the same parallel like you and I were just talking about before we started recording, it does have some different perspective for us to take away from it. Yes. And so this is the beauty. We really can't get to the fun of the parallelism. Like it's, it's no fun or it's not quite as good or effective to like do them side by side in real time. It's much better I think for us to sink in. A process and then to say like, okay, we just went through a lot of the great beautiful details here. What is this other version of the same thing? Tell us, or what are we picking up that even in, in its like perspective or approach that was slightly different from the first version that we looked at. Yeah, that's the whole joy. So don't, don't like skip the next one. It's not gonna be the same conversation. It's actually gonna be a remarkably different conversation. And speaking of conversation.  [01:02:12] Join the Conversation and Community [01:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Tony people want to get in touch with you or they wanna get in touch with me if they wanna talk about what's going around in the world or converse us about the, the theology that we're speaking of here. If you're new to reform theology and you think, you know, I might have to talk to somebody about that, uh, that we're not experts and not your pastor, what you should do is what, how can you find us?  [01:02:30] Tony Arsenal: You can join our telegram chat. Uh, we have a little corner of the internet that we've carved out. Uh, there's lots of great Christians in there, reform brothers and sisters, so it's not even just like, come talk to Jesse and Tony. There's a whole group of people that love the Lord and love reform theology. Uh, you can go to, uh, t.me, the letter t.me/reformed brotherhood, and that will point you either to download a little app to use, or if you already have Telegram, which is the messaging app we use, it'll jump you right in there. Um, there's lots of prayer requests going on. Um, conversations about books, people are reading. Um, you know, today there was a conversation about whether or not the first, uh, the things leading up to the eating of the forbidden fruit were, were actually thin, or whether they were some other category of, uh, sort of like moral neglect. Um, which was, is an interesting, you know, sort of theological conversation. Um, but most of all, like it's just a place for us to, to. Fellowship with each other. It's not a replacement for your church. It can never be a replacement for your church, but it is a place where you can have some good, genuine, um, fellowship and some good fun times with other people who love the Lord.  [01:03:41] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. So come hang out with us and if you don't, you can always come back here because as until the Lord comes, if he tarries another week, we will be back here talking about Matthew 18 and lostness all over again because there's some new stuff in there for us to explore and enjoy. So until next time, if you got it, go out in the cold. And while you're there, honor everyone,  [01:04:05] Tony Arsenal: love that brotherhood. 

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse continue their deep dive into the Parable of the Prodigal Son by examining the often-overlooked character of the elder brother. While the younger son's rebellion is obvious, the elder brother's self-righteous moralism represents a more subtle—and perhaps more dangerous—form of lostness. Through careful exegesis of Luke 15:25-32, the hosts explore how religious performance, resentment of grace, and merit-based thinking can keep us far from the Father's heart even while we remain close to the Father's house. This conversation challenges listeners to examine their own hearts for traces of elder brother theology and calls us to celebrate the scandalous grace that restores sinners to sonship. Key Takeaways Two ways to be lost: The parable presents both flagrant rebellion (the younger son) and respectable self-righteousness (the elder son) as forms of spiritual lostness that require God's grace. The elder brother's geographic and spiritual position: Though physically near the house and faithful in service, the elder brother was spiritually distant from the father's heart, unable to celebrate grace extended to others. Moralism as a subtle distance: Self-righteous religion can be more deceptive than open rebellion because it appears virtuous while actually rejecting the father's character and values. The father pursues both sons: God's gracious pursuit extends not only to the openly rebellious but also to the self-righteous, demonstrating that election and grace are sovereign gifts, not earned rewards. The unresolved ending: The parable intentionally leaves the elder brother's response unstated, creating narrative tension that challenges the original audience (Pharisees and scribes) and modern readers to examine their own response to grace. Adoption as the frame of obedience: True Christian obedience flows from sonship and inheritance ("all that I have is yours"), not from a wage-earning, transactional relationship with God. Resentment reveals our theology: When we find ourselves unable to celebrate the restoration of repentant sinners, we expose our own need for repentance—not from scandal, but from envy and pride. Key Concepts The Elder Brother's Subtle Lostness The genius of Jesus' parable is that it exposes a form of lostness that religious people rarely recognize in themselves. The elder brother never left home, never squandered his inheritance, and never violated explicit commands. Yet his response to his brother's restoration reveals a heart fundamentally opposed to the father's character. His complaint—"I have served you all these years and never disobeyed your command"—demonstrates that he viewed his relationship with the father transactionally, as an employer-employee arrangement rather than a father-son bond. This is the essence of legalism: performing religious duties while remaining distant from God's heart. The tragedy is that the elder brother stood within reach of everything the father had to offer yet experienced none of the joy, fellowship, or security of sonship. This form of lostness is particularly dangerous because it wears the mask of righteousness and often goes undetected until grace is extended to someone we deem less deserving. The Father's Gracious Pursuit of the Self-Righteous Just as the father ran to meet the returning younger son, he also went out to plead with the elder brother to come into the feast. This detail is theologically significant: God pursues both the openly rebellious and the self-righteous with the same gracious initiative. The father's response to the elder brother's complaint is not harsh correction but tender invitation: "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours." This reveals that the problem was never scarcity or the father's favoritism—the elder brother had always possessed full access to the father's resources and affection. The barrier was entirely on the son's side: his inability to receive sonship as a gift rather than a wage. This mirrors the historical situation of the Pharisees and scribes who grumbled at Jesus for receiving sinners. They stood adjacent to the kingdom, surrounded by the promises and covenant blessings of God, yet remained outside because they could not accept grace as the principle of God's dealing with humanity. The invitation still stood, but it required them to abandon their merit-based system and enter the feast as recipients of unearned favor. The Unresolved Ending and Its Challenge to Us Luke deliberately leaves the parable unfinished—we never learn whether the elder brother eventually joined the celebration. This narrative technique places the reader in the position of the elder brother, forcing us to answer for ourselves: will we enter the feast or remain outside in bitter resentment? For the original audience of Pharisees and scribes, this unresolved ending was a direct challenge to their response to Jesus' ministry. Would they continue to grumble at God's grace toward tax collectors and sinners, or would they recognize their own need and join the celebration? For contemporary readers, the question remains equally pressing. When we hear of a notorious sinner coming to faith, do we genuinely rejoice, or do we scrutinize their repentance with suspicion? When churches extend membership to those with broken pasts, do we celebrate restoration or quietly question whether they deserve a place at the table? The parable's open ending is not a literary flaw but a pastoral strategy: it refuses to let us remain passive observers and demands that we examine whether we harbor elder brother theology in our own hearts. Memorable Quotes The father's household is a place where grace produces joy, not just merely relief. The elder brother hears the joy before he sees it. That's often how resentment works, isn't it? We're alerted to the happiness of others and somehow there's this visceral response of wanting to be resentful toward that joy, toward that unmerited favor. — Jesse Schwamb There is a way to be near the house, church adjacent, religiously active, yet to be really far from the father's heart. The elder brother is not portrayed as an atheist, but as a moralist. And moralism can be a more subtle distance than open rebellion. — Jesse Schwamb God doesn't keep sinners from repenting. The reprobate are not prohibited or prevented by God from coming to faith. They're being kept out by their own stubborn refusal to come in. That's where this punchline hits so hard. — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:00:56] Parables and God's Word [00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words. And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak. So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son. We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God. Spoiler. We can and we'll,  [00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome? Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against?  [00:02:31] Tony's Nerdy Hobby: Dungeons and Dragons [00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths. [00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I  [00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think,  [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it.  [00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game. The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show. Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game. Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live. So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in.  [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we  [00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it. Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks. Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free. Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model. Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders. I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going. So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it.  [00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there. Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it.  [00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time. Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do. Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity. I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it. If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that. And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like. I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play. But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh,  [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow.  [00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long. So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it.  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now. Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades?  [00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story. Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right. And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right? Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but  [00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.  [00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think. [00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there. A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together.  [00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere. Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things. One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta nowhere. I was like, what if I sort of act as though I'm suspicious of this merchant now because why are we getting attacked all the time? And so I, I typed in sort of like a little. A mini role play of me accusing this guy. And it was something like, Randall, we get, we're getting attacked a lot for a simple merchant, Randall merchant. What happens if I cast a tech magic? What am I gonna find? And he's like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. I know I don't know anything. And then I cast a tech magic and it shifted. I mean, I don't know where the campaign was gonna go before that, but it shifted the whole thing now where the person who gave him the package he was carrying had betrayed him. It was, so that happens in real life too in these games, real life in these games. That happens in real, in-person sessions too, where a player or a group of players may just decide instead of talking to the contact person that is supposed to give them the clue to find the dungeon they're supposed to go to, instead they ambush them and murder them in gold blood. And now the, the dungeon master has to figure out, how do I get them back to this dungeon when this is the only person that was supposed to know where it is? So it, it does end up really stretching your thinking skills and sort of your improvisational skills. There's an element of, um, you know, like chance with the dice, um, I guess like the dice falls in the lot, but the lot is in the handle. Or like, obviously that's all ordained as well too, but there is this element of chance where even the DM doesn't get to determine everything. Um, if, if I say I want to, I want to try to sneak into this room, but I'm a giant barbarian who has, you know, is wearing like chain mail, there's still a chance I could do it, but the dice roll determines that. It's not like the, the GM just says you can't do that. Um, so it's, it's a, I, I like it. I'm, I'm really looking forward to trying to, getting into it. It is hard to start a group and to get going and, um, there's a part of me that's a little bit. Gun shy of maybe like getting too invested with a group of non-Christians for something like this. 'cause it can get a little weird sometimes. But I think that, I think that'll work out. It'll be fun. I know there's actually some people in our telegram chat. Bing, bing, bing segue. There we go. There's some people in our telegram chat actually, that we're already planning to do a campaign. Um, so we might even do like a virtual reform brotherhood, Dungeons and Dragons group. So that might be a new sub channel in the telegram at some point.  [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. You could jump right in. Go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood.  [00:14:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming since I just spent the last 15 minutes gushing about my nerdy hobby?  [00:14:23] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, that was great. Can I, can I just say two things? One is, so you're basically saying it's a bit like, like a troll shows up and everybody's like, yes. And yeah. So I love that idea. Second thing, which is follow up question, very brief. What kind of merchant was Randall.  [00:14:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, he was a spice trader actually.  [00:14:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I don't trust that.  [00:14:43] Tony Arsenal: And, and silk, silk and spices.  [00:14:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's double, that's too strict.  [00:14:47] Tony Arsenal: He was actually good guy in the, in the story that developed out of this campaign. He actually became part of my family and like, like, like got adopted into the family because he lost everything on his own. Randy we're  [00:15:00] Jesse Schwamb: talking about Randy.  [00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Randy Randall with one L. Yeah. The AI was very specific about  that.  [00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: There's, there's nothing about this guy I trust. I, is this still ongoing? Because I think he's just trying to make his way deeper in,  [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: uh, no, no. It, I'll, I'll wait for next week to tell you how much, even more nerdy this thing gets. But there's a whole thing that ha there was a whole thing out of this That's a tease. Tease. There was a, there was a horse and the horse died and there was lots of tears and there was a wedding and a baby. It was, it's all sorts of stuff going on in this campaign. [00:15:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I'm sure. Randy was somewhere near that horse when it happened. Right?  [00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: It was his horse.  [00:15:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. That's  [00:15:35] Tony Arsenal: exactly, he didn't, he didn't kill the horse. He had no power to knock down the bridge The horse was standing on.  [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, next week, I'm pretty sure that's what we're gonna learn is that it was all him. [00:15:45] Tony Arsenal: Alright, Jesse, save us from this. Save us from this, please. Uh,  [00:15:49] Jesse Schwamb: no.  What  [00:15:50] Tony Arsenal: you affirming, this is  [00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: great.  [00:15:50] Jesse's Affirmation: Church Community [00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's possible that there is a crossover between yours and mine if we consider. That the church is like playing a d and d game in the dungeon Masters Christ, and the campaigns, the gospel. So I was thinking maybe is it possible, uh, maybe this is just the, the theology of the cross, but that sometimes, like you need the denial to get to the affirmation. Have we talked about that kind of truth? Yeah,  [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. So here's a little bit of that. I'll be very, very brief and I'm using this not as like just one thing that happened today, but what I know is for sure happening all over the world. And I mean that very literally, not just figuratively when it comes to the body of Christ, the local church. So it snowed here overnight. This was, this is the Lord's Day. We're hanging out in the Lord's Day, which is always a beautiful day to talk about God. And overnight it snowed. The snow stopped relatively late in the morning around the time that everybody would be saying, Hey, it's time to go and worship the Lord. So for those in my area, I got up, we did the whole clearing off the Kai thing. I went to church and I was there a little bit early for a practice for music. And when I pulled in, there weren't many there yet, but the whole parking lot unplowed. So there's like three inches of snow, unplowed parking lot. So I guess the denial is like the plow people decided like, not this time I, I don't think so. They understood they were contracted with the church, but my understanding is that when one of the deacons called, they were like, Ooh, yeah, we're like 35 minutes away right now, so that's gonna be a problem. So when I pulled in, here's what I was. Like surprise to find, but in a totally unexpected way, even though I understand what a surprise is. And that is that, uh, that first the elders and the deacons, everybody was just decided we're going to shovel an entire parking lot. And at some point big, I was a little bit early there, but at some point then this massive text change just started with everybody, which was, Hey, when you come to church, bring your shovel. And I, I will tell you like when I got out of the car. I was so like somebody was immediately running to clear a path with me. One of those like snow pushers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like one, those beastly kind of like blade things.  [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Those things are, those things are the best.  [00:17:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You just run. And so you have never met a group of people that was more happy to shovel an entire large asphalt area, which normally shouldn't even be required. And. It just struck me, even in hindsight now thinking about it, it was this lovely confluence of people serving each other and serving God. It was as if they got up that morning and said, do you know what would be the best thing in the world for me to do is to shovel. And so everybody was coming out. Everybody was shoveling it. It was to protect everyone and to allow one into elaborate, one access. It was just incredible. And so I started this because the affirmation is, I know this happens in, in all of our churches, every God fearing God, loving God serving church, something like this is happening, I think on almost every Lord's day or maybe every day of the week in various capacities. And I just think this is God's people coming together because everybody, I think when we sat down for the message was exhausted, but. But there was so much joy in doing this. I think what you normally would find to be a mundane and annoying task, and the fact that it wasn't just, it was redeemed as if like we, we found a greater purpose in it. But that's, everyone saw this as a way to love each other and to love God, and it became unexpected worship in the parking lot. That's really what it was, and it was fantastic. I really almost hope that we just get rid of the plow company and just do it this way from now on. Yeah, so I'm affirming, recognize people, recognize brothers and sisters that your, your church is doing this stuff all the time and, and be a part of it. Jump in with the kinda stuff because I love how it brings forward the gospel.  [00:19:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. It's a great, uh, a great example of the body of Christ being, what the body of Christ is and just pulling together to get it done. Um, which, you know, we do on a spiritual level, I think, more often than a physical level these days. Right, right. But, um, that's great. I'm sitting here going three inches of snow. I would've just pulled into the lot and then pulled out of the lot. But New Hampshire, it hits different in New Hampshire. Like we all d have snow tires and four wheel drive.  [00:20:02] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's enough snow where it was like pretty wet and heavy that it, if, you know, you pack that stuff down, it gets slick. You can't see the people, like you can't have your elderly people just flying in, coming in hot and then trying to get outta the vehicle, like making their way into church.  [00:20:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:15] Jesse Schwamb: So there was, there was a lot more of that. But I think again, you would, one of the options would've been like, Hey, why don't we shovel out some sp spaces for the, for those who need it, for, you know, those who need to have access in a way that's a little bit less encumbered. Oh, no, no. These people are like, I see your challenge and I am going to shovel the entire parking lots.  [00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It used to happen once in a while, uh, at the last church, uh, at, um, your dad's church. We would, where the plow would just not come on a Sunday morning or, or more often than not. Um, you know, what happens a lot of times is the plows don't want to come more than once. Right. If they don't have to. Or sometimes they won't come if they think it's gonna melt because they don't want to deal with, uh, with like customers who are mad that you plowed and that it all melts. But either way, once in a while. The plow wouldn't come or it wouldn't come in time. And what we would do is instead of trying to shovel an entire driveway thing, we would just went, the first couple people who would get there, the young guys in the church, there was only a couple of us, but the younger guys in the church would just, we would just be making trips, helping people into the, yeah. Helping people into the building. So, um, it was a pretty, you know, it was a small church, so it was like six trips and we'd have everybody in, but um, we just kind of, that was the way we pulled together. Um, yeah, that's a great, it's a great story. I love, I love stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Whether it's, whether it's, you know, plowing a, a parking lot with shovels instead of a plow, or it's just watching, um, watching the tables and the chairs from the fellowship, you know, all just like disappear because everybody's just, uh, picks up after themselves and cleans and stuff. That's, that's like the most concrete example of the body of Christ doing what the body of Christ does. Um, it's always nice, you know, we always hear jokes about like, who can carry the most, the most chairs,  [00:22:04] Jesse Schwamb: most  [00:22:04] Tony Arsenal: chairs. Uh, I think it's true. Like a lot of times I think like I could do like seven or eight sometimes. [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, you, that's, so, one more thing I wanna say. I, I wanted to tell you this privately, Tony, 'cause it just cracked me up 'cause I, you'll appreciate this. But now I'm realizing I think the brothers and sisters who listened to us talk for any length of time and in the context of this conversation, but the church will appreciate this too. On my way out, I, I happened because I was there early and the snow was crazy. I parked way further out, way on the edge of the lot to just allow for greater access because of all the shoveling that was happening. And by the way, I really hope there were a ton of visitors this morning because they were like, wow, this, this church is wild. They love to shovel their own lot and they're the happiest people doing it. Some sweaty person just ushered me in while they were casting snow. Like,  [00:22:47] Tony Arsenal: is this some new version of snake handling? You shovel your own lot and your impervious to back injuries.  [00:22:53] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. So I was walking out and as I walked past, uh, there was a, uh, two young gentlemen who were congregating by this very large lifted pickup truck, which I don't have much experience with, but it looked super cool and it was started, it was warming up, and they were just like casually, like in the way that only like people with large beards wearing flannel and Carhartt kind of do, like casually leaning against the truck, talking in a way that you're like, wow, these guys are rugged. And they sound, they're super cool, and they're probably like in their twenties. And all I hear as I pass by is one guy going, yeah, well, I mean that's, I was, I said to them too, but I said, listen, I'd rather go to a church with God-fearing women than anywhere else.  [00:23:36] Tony Arsenal: Nice.  [00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: I was just like, yep. On the prowl and I love it. And they're not wrong. This is the place to be.  [00:23:42] Tony Arsenal: It is.  [00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is the place to be. Yeah. So all kinds of, all kinds of good things I think going on in that in the house of the Lord and where wherever you're at, I would say be happy and be joyful and look for those things and participate in, like you said, whether it's physical or not, but as soon as you said like the, our young men, our youth somehow have this competition of when we need to like pack up the sanctuary. How many chairs can I take at one time? Yeah. It's like the classic and it just happens. Nobody says like, okay, everybody line up. We're about to embark on the competition now. Like the strong man usher competition. It's just like, it just happens and  [00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: it's  [00:24:17] Jesse Schwamb: incredible.  [00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: I mean, peacocks fan out their tail feathers. Young Christian guys fan out. All of the table chairs, chairs they can carry. It's uh, it's a real phenomena. So I feel like if you watch after a men's gathering, everybody is like carrying one chair at a time because they don't wanna hurt their backs and their arms. Oh, that's  [00:24:36] Jesse Schwamb: true. That's  [00:24:37] Tony Arsenal: what I do. Yeah. But it's when the women are around, that's when you see guys carrying like 19 chairs. Yeah. Putting themselves in the hospital.  [00:24:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I, listen, it comes for all of us. Like I, you know, I'm certainly not young anymore by almost any definition, but even when I'm in the mix, I'm like, oh, I see you guys. You wanna play this game? Mm-hmm. Let's do this. And then, you know, I'm stacking chairs until I hurt myself. So it's great. That's, that is what we do for each other. It's  [00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: just, I hurt my neck getting outta bed the other day. So it happens. It's real.  [00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: The struggle. Yeah, the struggle is real.  [00:25:07] The Parable of the Lost Son [00:25:07] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of struggle, speaking of family issues, speaking of all kinds of drama, let's get into Luke 15 and let me read just, I would say the first part of this parable, which as we've agreed to talk about, if we can even get this far, it's just the younger son. [00:25:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:25:25] Jesse Schwamb: And again, don't worry, we're gonna get to all of it, but let me read beginning in, uh, verse 11 here. This is Luke chapter 15. Come follow along as you will accept if you're operating heavy machinery. And Jesus said, A man had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me. So he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country. And there he squandered his estate living recklessly. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country and it began to be impoverished. So he went and hired himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. So he went and as he was desiring to be fed with the pods that the swine were eating because no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger. I'll rise up and go to my father, and I'll say to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. So he rose up, came to his father, but while he was still a long way off. His father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him. And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us celebrate. For the son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he has been found and they began to celebrate.  [00:27:09] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a, um, such a, I don't know, like pivotal seminal parable in the Ministry of Christ. Um, it's one of those parables and we, we mentioned this briefly last week that even most. It, it hasn't passed out of the cultural zeitgeist yet. A lot of biblical teaching has, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of things that used to be common knowledge where, where you could make a reference to something in the Bible and people would just get it. Um, even if they weren't Christian or weren't believers, they would still know what you were talking about. There's a lot of things in the Bible that have passed out of that cultural memory. The, the parable of the prodigal son, lost son, however you wanna phrase it, um, that's not one of them. Right. So I think it's really important for us, um, and especially since it is such a beautiful picture of the gospel and it has so many different theological touch points, it's really incumbent on us to spend time thinking about this because I would be willing to bet that if you weave. Elements of this parable into your conversations with nonbelievers that you are praying for and, and, you know, witnessing to and sharing the gospel with, if you weave this in there, you're gonna help like plant some seeds that when it comes time to try to harvest, are gonna pay dividends. Right. So I think it's a really, it's a really great thing that we're gonna be able to spend, you know, a couple weeks really just digging into this. [00:28:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and to define the beginning, maybe from the end, just slightly here, I like what you said about this cultural acknowledgement of this. I think one of the correctives we can provide, which is clear in the story, is in the general cultural sense. We speak of this prodigal as something that just returns comes back, was lost, but now is found. And often maybe there is this component of, in the familial relationship, it's as if they've been restored. Here we're gonna of course find that this coming to one senses is in fact the work of God. That there is, again, a little bit of denial that has to bring forward the affirmation here that is the return. And so again, from the beginning here, we're just talking about the younger son. We have more than youthful ambition.  [00:29:19] The Essence of Idolatry and Sin [00:29:19] Jesse Schwamb: This heart of, give me the stuff now, like so many have said before, is really to say. Give me the gifts and not you, which is, I think, a common fault of all Christians. We think, for instance of heaven, and we think of all the blessings that come with it, but not necessarily of the joy of just being with our savior, being with Christ. And I think there's something here right from the beginning, there's a little bit of this betrayal in showing idolatry, the ugliness of treating God's gifts as if there's something owed. And then this idea that of course. He receives these things and imme more or less immediately sometime after he goes and takes these things and squanderers them. And sin and idolatry, I think tends to accelerate in this way. The distance from the father becomes distance from wisdom. We are pulled away from that, which is good. The father here being in his presence and being under his care and his wisdom and in his fear of influence and concern, desiring then to say, I don't want you just give me the gifts that you allegedly owe me. And then you see how quickly like sin does everything you, we always say like, sin always costs more than you want to pay. And it always takes you further than you want to go. And that's exactly what we see here. Like encapsulated in an actual story of relationship and distance.  [00:30:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um. It's interesting to me.  [00:30:39] The Greek Words for Property [00:30:39] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, I'm a big fan of saying you don't need to study Greek to understand your Bible, but I'm also a big fan of saying understanding a little bit of Greek is really helpful. And one of the things that I think is really intriguing, and I haven't quite parsed out exactly what I think this means, but the word property in this parable, it actually is two different Greek words that is translated as property, at least in the ESV. And neither one of them really fit. What our normal understanding of property would be. And there are Greek words that refer to like all of your material possessions, but it says, father, give me the share of property. And he uses the word usia, which those of us who have heard anything about the trinity, which is all of us, um, know that that word means something about existence. It's the core essence of a person. So it says, father, give me the share of usia that is coming to me. And then it says, and he divided his bias, his, his life between them. Then it says, not many days later, the younger son gathered all that he had took a journey into the far country. There he squandered his usia again. So this, this parable, Christ is not using the ordinary words to refer to material, uh, material accumulation and property like. I think probably, you know, Christ isn't like randomly using these words. So there probably is an element that these were somehow figuratively used of one's life possessions. But the fact that he's using them in these particular ways, I think is significant. [00:32:10] The Prodigal Son's Misconception [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: And so the, the, the younger son here, and I don't even like calling this the prodigal sun parable because the word prodigal doesn't like the equivalent word in Greek doesn't appear in this passage. And prodigal doesn't mean like the lost in returned, like prodigal is a word that means like the one who spends lavishly, right? So we call him the prodigal son because he went and he squandered all of his stuff and he spent all of his money. So it doesn't even really describe the main feature or the main point of why this, this parable is here. It's just sort of like a random adjective that gets attached to it. But all of that aside, um. This parable starts off not just about wasting our property, like wasting our things, but it's a parable that even within the very embedded language of the parable itself is talking about squandering our very life, our very essence, our very existence is squandered and wasted as we depart from the Father. Right? And this is so like, um, it's almost so on the head, on the on the nose that it's almost a little like, really Jesus. Like this is, this is so like, slap you in the face kind of stuff. This is right outta like Romans, uh, Romans one, like they did not give thanks to God. They did not show gratitude to God or acknowledge him as God. This is what's happening in this parable. The son doesn't go to his father and say, father, I love you. I'm so happy to stay with you. I'm so happy to be here. He, he basically says like. Give me your very life essence, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go spend it on prostitutes. I'm gonna go waste your life, father, I'm gonna waste your life, your existence, your bias. I'm gonna go take that and I'm gonna squander it on reckless living. And I guess we don't know for sure. He, it doesn't say he spends it on prostitutes. That's something his brother says later and assumes he did. So I, I don't know that we do that. But either way, I'm gonna take what's yours, your very life, your very essence. And also that my life, my essence, the gift you've given me as my father, you've given me my life. In addition now to your life or a portion of your life. And I'm gonna go squander that on reckless living, right? Like, how much of a picture of sin is that, that we, we take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living. That that's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here.  [00:34:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that, that's a great point because it's, it would be one thing to rebel over disobedience, another thing to use the very life essence that you've been given for destructive, self-destructive purposes. And then to use that very energy, which is not yours to begin with, but has been imbued in yours, external, all of these things. And then to use that very thing as the force of your rebellion. So it's double insult all the way around. I'm with you in the use of Greek there. Thank you. Locus Bio software. Not a sponsor of the podcast, but could be. And I think that's why sometimes in translations you get the word like a state because it's like the closest thing we can have to understanding that it's property earned through someone's life more or less. Yeah. And then is passed down, but as representative, not just of like, here's like 20 bucks of cash, but something that I spent all of me trying to earn and. And to your point, also emphasizing in the same way that this son felt it was owed him. So it's like really bad all around and I think we would really be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't think that there's like a little bit of Paul washer saying in this, like I'm talking about you though. So like just be like, look at how disrespectful the sun is. Yeah. Haven't we all done this? To God and bringing up the idea of prodigal being, so that, that is like the amazing juxtaposition, isn't it? Like Prodigal is, is spent recklessly, parsimonious would be like to, to save recklessly, so to speak. And then you have the love the father demonstrates coming against all of that in the same way with like a totally different kind of force. So.  [00:36:02] The Famine and Realization [00:36:02] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting, and I think this is like set up in exactly what you said, is that when you get to verse 14 and this famine comes, it's showing us, I think that like providence exposes what Sin conceals.  [00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:36:16] Jesse Schwamb: And want arrives. Not just because like the money ran out, but because again, like these idols, what he's replaced the father with, they don't satisfy. And repentance then often begins when God shows the emptiness of light apart life apart from him. That's like the affirmation being born out of the denial. And so I think that this also is evolving for us, this idea that God is going to use hardship, not as mere punishment, but as mercy that wakes us up and that the son here is being woken up, but not, of course, it's not as if he goes into the land, like you said, starts to spend, is like, whoa, hold on a second. This seems like a bad idea. It's not until all of that sin ever, like the worship of false things collapses under its own weight before it, which is like the precursor of the antecedent, I think, to this grand repentance or this waking up.  [00:37:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also think it's, um.  [00:37:08] The Depths of Desperation [00:37:08] Tony Arsenal: A feature of this that I haven't reflected on too deeply, but is, is worth thinking about is the famine that's described here only occurs in this far country that he's in. [00:37:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:37:17] Tony Arsenal: Right. So even that's right. And this is like a multitude of foolish decisions. This is compounding foolish decisions that don't, don't make any sense. Like they don't really actually make any sense. Um. There's not a logic to this, this lost son's decision making. He takes the property. Okay. I guess maybe like you could be anxious to get your inheritance, but then like he takes it to a far country. Like there's no reason for him to do that. If at any point through this sort of insane process he had stopped short, he would not have been in the situation he was in. Yes. And that, I love that phrase, that providence, you know, reveals, I don't know exactly how you said it, but like providence reveals what our sin can bring to us. Like he first see sins against his father by sort of like demanding, demanding his inheritance early. Then he takes it and he leaves his country for no reason. He goes to this far country, then he spends everything and then the famine arises. Right? And the famine arises in this other country.  [00:38:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:38:13] Tony Arsenal: And that's, I think that is still again, like a picture of sin. Like we. We don't just, we don't just take what the father has and, and like spend it like that would be bad enough if we weren't grateful for what we have and what we've been given, and we just waste it. But on top of that, now we also have taken ourselves to a far country. Like we've gone away from the good, the good land of the Lord, as those who are not regenerate. We've gone away from the, the Lord into this far country. And it's not until we start to have this famine that we recognize what we've done. And again, this is, this is where I think we get a picture. There's so many theological, like points in this parable particular that it almost feels a little bit like a, like a. Parable that's intended to teach some systematic theology about for sure, the oral salus, which I think there's probably a lot of like biblical theology people that are ready to just crawl through the screen and strangle me for saying that. But this is such a glorious picture of, of regeneration too. [00:39:16] The Journey Back to the Father [00:39:16] Tony Arsenal: Like he comes to himself, there's nothing, there's nothing in the story that's like, oh, and the servant that he was, the other servant he was talking to mentioned that the famine, like there's nothing here that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself. He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources, and has takes care of his, of his servants on top of how he takes care of his sons. That is a picture of regeneration. There's no, yeah. Logical, like I'm thinking my way into it, he just one day realizes how much, how many of my father's servants have more than enough bread. Right. But I'm perishing here in this, this foolish other country with nothing. Right. I can't even, and the, the pods that the pigs ate, we can even, we can get into the pods a little bit here, but like. He wants to eat the pods. The pods that he's giving the pigs are not something that's even edible to humans. He's that destitute, that he's willing to eat these pods that are like, this is the leftover stuff that you throw to the pigs because no, no, nobody and nothing else can actually eat it. And that's the state he's in at the very bottom, in the very end of himself where he realizes my father is good and he loves me, and even if I can never be his son again, surely he'll take care of me. I mentioned it last week, like he wasn't going back thinking that this was gonna be a failing proposition. He went back because he knew or he, he was confident that his father was going to be able to take care of him and would accept him back. Right. Otherwise, what would be the point of going back? It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, um, a mission he expected to fail at. He expected there to be a positive outcome or he wouldn't have done it. Like, it wouldn't make any sense to try that if there wasn't the hope of some sort of realistic option.  [00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: And I think his confidence in that option, as you were saying, is in this way where he's constructed a transaction. Yeah. That he's gonna go back and say, if you'll just take me out as a slave, I know you have slaves, I will work for you. Right. Therefore, I feel confident that you'll accept me under those terms because I'll humble myself. And why would you not want to remunerate? Me for the work that I put forward. So you're right, like it's, it's strange that he basically comes to this, I think, sense that slavery exists in his life and who would he rather be the slave of,  [00:41:38] Tony Arsenal: right? [00:41:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so he says, listen, I'm gonna come to the father and give him this offer. And I'm very confident that given that offer and his behavior, what I know about how he treats his other slaves, that he will hire me back because there's work to do. And therefore, as a result of the work I put forward, he will take care of me. How much of like contemporary theology is being preached in that very way right now?  [00:41:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:41:59] Jesse Schwamb: And that's really like why the minimum wages of sin is all of this stuff. It's death. It's the consequences that we're speaking about here. By the way, the idea about famine is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that. It is interesting, again, that sin casts him out into this foreign place where the famine occurs. And that famine is the beginning of his realization of the true destruction, really how far he's devolved and degraded in his person and in his relationships and in his current states. And then of course, the Bible is replete with references and God moving through famine. And whereas in Genesis, we have a local famine, essentially casting Joseph brothers into a foreign land to be freed and to be saved.  [00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: Right.  [00:42:40] Jesse Schwamb: We have the exact opposite, which is really kind of interesting. Yeah. So we probably should talk about, you know, verse 15 and the, and the pig stuff. I mean, I think the obvious statement here is that. It would be scandalous, like a Jewish hero would certainly feel the shame of the pigs. They represent UNC cleanliness and social humiliation. I'm interested again, in, in this idea, like you've started us on that the freedom that this younger brother sought for becomes slavery. It's kind of bondage of the wills style. Yeah. Stuff. There's like an, an attentiveness in the story to the degrading reversal in his condition. And it is interesting that we get there finally, like the bottom of the pit maybe, or the barrel is like you said, the pods, which it's a bit like looking at Tide pods and being like, these are delicious. I wish I could just eat these. So I, I think your point isn't lost. Like it's not just that like he looked at something gross and was so his stomach was grumbling so much that he might find something in there that he would find palatable. It, it's more than that. It's like this is just total nonsense. It, this is Romans one. [00:43:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these pods, like, these aren't, um, you know, I guess I, I don't know exactly what these are. I'm sure somebody has done all of the historical linguistic studies, but the Greek word is related to the, the word for keratin. So like the, the same, the same root word. And we have to be careful not to define a Greek word based on how we use it. That's a reverse etymology fallacy. Like dunamis doesn't mean dynamite, it's the other direction. But the Greek word is used in other places, in Greek literature to describe like the horns of rhinoc, like,  [00:44:21] Jesse Schwamb: right,  [00:44:21] Tony Arsenal: this, these aren't like. These aren't pea pods. I've heard this described like these are like little vegetable pods. No, this is like they're throwing pieces of bone to the pigs.  [00:44:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:44:31] Tony Arsenal: And the pigs, the pigs can manage it. And this is what this also like, reinforces how destitute and how deep the famine is. Like this isn't as though, like this is the normal food you give to pigs. Like usually you feed pigs, like you feed pigs, like the extra scraps from your table and like other kinds of like agricultural waste. These are, these are like chunks of bony keratin that are being fed to the pigs. So that's how terrible the famine is that not even the pigs are able to get food.  [00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:45:00] Tony Arsenal: They're given things that are basically inedible, but the pigs can manage it. And this, this kid is so hungry, he's so destitute that he says, man, I wish I could chew on those bony, those bony pods that I'm feeding them because that's how hungry and starved I am. You get the picture that this, um. This lost son is actually probably not just metaphorically on the brink of death, but he's in real risk of starvation, real risk of death that he, he can't even steal. He can't even steal from the pigs what they're eating, right? Like he can't even, he can't even glean off of what the pigs are eating just to stay alive. He, he's literally in a position where he has no hope of actually rescuing himself. The only thing that he can do, and this is the realization he has, the only thing he can do is throw himself back on the mercy of his father.  [00:45:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:45:50] Tony Arsenal: right. And, and hope, again, I think hope with confidence, but hope that his father will show mercy on him and his, his conception. I wanna be careful in this parable not to, I, I think there's something to what you're getting at or kinda what you're hinting at, that like his conception of mercy is. Not the full picture of the gospel. Yes. His conception of mercy is that he's going to be able to go and work and be rewarded for his laborers in a way that he can survive. And the gospel is so much broader and so much bigger than that. But at the same time, I think it's, it's actually also a confident hope, a faith-filled hope that his father's mercy is going to rescue him, is going to save him. So it is this picture of what we do. And, and I think, I think sometimes, um, I want to be careful how we say this 'cause I don't wanna, I don't want to get a bunch of angry emails and letters, but I think sometimes we, um, we make salvation too much of a theology test. And there's probably people that are like, Tony, did you really just say that? I think there are people who trust in the Lord Jesus thinking that that means something akin to what. This lost son thinks  [00:47:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:47:03] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. They trust. They trust that Jesus is merciful and, and I'm not necessarily thinking of Roman Catholics. I'm not thinking of Roman Catholic theology for sure. I do think there are a fair number of Roman Catholic individuals that fall into this category where they trust Jesus to save them. Right. They just don't fully understand exactly what Jesus means, what that means for them to be saved. They think that Christ is a savior who will provide a way for them to be saved by His grace that requires them to contribute something to it. Arminians fall into that category. Right. I actually think, and I, I think there's gonna be if, if there's, if the one Lutheran who listens to our show hears this is gonna be mad, but I actually think Lutheran theology kind of falls into this in a sort of negative fashion in that you have to not resist grace in order to be saved. So I think. That is something we should grapple with is that there are people who fit into that category, but this is still a faith-filled, hope-filled confidence in the mercy of the father in this parable that he's even willing to make the journey back. Right? This isn't like right, he walks from his house down the street or from the other side of town. He's wandering back from a far country. He, he went into a far country. He has to come back from a far country. And yes, the father greets him from afar and sees him from afar. But we're not talking about like from a far country. Like he sees him coming down the road, it, he has to travel to him, and this is a picture of. The hope and the faith that we have to have to return to God, to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ, trusting that he has our best interest in mind, that he has died for us, and that it is for us. Right? There's the, the knowledge of what Christ has done, and then there's the ascent to the truth of it. And then the final part of faith is the confidence or the, the faith in trust in the fact that, that is for me as well, right? This, this is a picture of that right here. I, I don't know why we thought we were gonna get through the whole thing in one week, Jesse. We're gonna spend at least two weeks on this lost son, or at least part of the second week here. But he, this is, this is also like a picture of faith. This is why I say this as like a systematic theology lesson on soteriology all packed into here. Because not only do we have, like what is repentance and or what does regeneration look like? It's coming to himself. What does repentance look like? Yes. Turning from your sins and coming back. What is, what is the orde solis? Well, there's a whole, there's a whole thing in here. What is the definition of faith? Well, he knows that his father is good. That he has more than enough food for his servants. He, uh, is willing to acknowledge the truth of that, and he's willing to trust in that, in that he's willing to walk back from a far country in order to lay claim to that or to try to lay claim to it. That's a picture of faith right there, just in all three parts. Right. It's, it's really quite amazing how, how in depth this parable goes on this stuff,  [00:49:54] Jesse Schwamb: right? Yeah. It's wild to note that as he comes to himself, he's still working. Yeah, in that far off country. So this shows again that sin is this cruel master. He hits the bottom, he wants the animal food, but he's still unfed. And this is all the while again, he has some kind of arrangement where he is trying to work his way out of that and he sees the desperation. And so I'm with you, you know, before coming to Christ, A person really, I think must come to themselves and that really is like to say they need to have a sober self-knowledge under God, right? Yeah. Which is, as we said before, like all this talk about, well Jesus is the answer. We better be sure what the question is. And that question is who am I before God? And this is why, of course, you have to have the law and gospel, or you have to have the the bad news before you can have the good news. And really, there's all of this bad news that's delivered here and this repentance, like you've been saying, it's not just mere regret, we know this. It's a turning, it's a reorientation back to the father. He says, I will arise and go to my father. So yeah, also it demonstrates to me. When we do come to ourselves when there's a sober self-knowledge under God, there is a true working out of salvation that necessarily requires and results in some kind of action, right? And that is the mortification of sin that is moving toward God again, under his power and direction of the Holy Spirit. But still there is some kind of movement on our part. And so that I think is what leads then in verse 19, as you're saying, the son and I do love this 'cause I think this goes right back to like the true hope that he has, even though it might be slightly corrupted or slightly washed out because it's not like the full, bright colors of the gospel in its entirety. But he doesn't deny that he's the son. He just ows that he's his worthiness. And so there's like a tender conscience somewhere in there concluding like I must, we can say like, well, I must not really be truly God's own, or God would never take me as I am. And so what we have here, I think is this lesson reminder of God, the difference between identity and harmony with God. That harmony often gets disrupted because of our own sin, but this son here recognizes that he is still the son. And so I think he, he knows his father, like you're saying. I think he hopes for the best, but what he wants to put forward is, can I just come and be a slave in your house? Which incidentally is what he will become, but under better pretenses of saying, well, you will maintain you sonship because of some kind of meritorious earning, which is where we're all tempted to go because it feels better. It feels more safe than trusting and embracing and receiving the fathers recklessly spend thrift love, which actually is the thing that keeps us in the identity of being a son or a daughter of God. So you're right, there's so much that's happening. Underneath there that, I mean, I'm sure some Puritan has written about that in probably 50,000 words. [00:52:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:52:36] Jesse Schwamb: But there's so much there because I'm with you. I think there is a great hope because of understanding his identity, and yet he knows the harmony is disrupted to such a degree that what he also trusts in is that worst case scenario, I would rather be a slave for my father than I would rather be a slave to sin. And I think only until you come to that place, only when you understand that you are a slave to something, into someone, that you actually start to ask, well, how good is my master? That there is a coming to yourself, which leads to repentance and God uses in his grand providence, all kinds of past, all kinds of undertakings, all kinds of campaigns, if you will, to bring us to that place. But he must bring us to that place before we can have true repentance.  [00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:53:20] The Father's Unconditional Mercy [00:53:20] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it more, but just because I, I don't feel great about, uh. Sort of throwing out the law in some ways and not finishing with the gospel.  [00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get to the gospel.  [00:53:31] Tony Arsenal: The, the father's correction of this is again, like this is the systematic theology correction. The son comes and he says, or he's planning on saying, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. When we get to the father. The father cuts him off as I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.  [00:53:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.  [00:53:49] Tony Arsenal: So he doesn't, he doesn't let him get to the point of, of proposing the meritorious salvation that he thought he was going to get. He, he lets him acknowledge, right? He, the father, lets him acknowledge that he's no longer worthy of being his son, and then essentially says, but that doesn't matter because I am worthy of being your father, and I will make you my son again. That that's what he does. He brings the robe, he brings the sandal, he brings the ring, he restores and elevates him to a position of sonship that he didn't even before he left, didn't fully have. We'll talk about that and we'll talk about it again. He, he doesn't come home and come back to being the second son. He comes back home. And this is part of why the older son is so annoyed, is he's actually elevated to the place of the firstborn.  [00:54:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: By, by begin being given all these symbols of inheritance. And, and this is, you know, this is the other thing, and maybe we'll talk about this more when we get to the, get to what the father gives him. But in Jewish custom and in the Jewish law, the second born son would get, would get one third of the estate. And so he comes back and one third of, I mean, who knows? We don't know how long this trip is. We don't know how long he's been gone. We don't know how, um, how much the estate has been rebuilt. Obviously, the father is still working. It's not as though like his estate is just like stagnant and neutral, but when he comes back, a third of the estate has been wiped out by his reckless living. When he comes back, he's  basically  given all the symbols to say  that  he's now guaranteed to have  the,  the two thirds.  [00:55:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:55:23] Tony Arsenal: So he comes back to this position,  into this estate  where the father elevates him  back to and  above his previous station  of sonship.  That is the gospel of Jesus Christ  right there. [00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: That's double imputation baked into the pie.  Amen. It's not,  it's not just that. He goes, well.  Yeah,  you spent all this stuff, but I guess  like we can,  we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back.  You can  start at zero,  I guess.  Zero is a servant in my house.  Go ahead and  work your way back up if you can. Right. He comes back and the father says like, well, I've been working hard. I mean, I'm kind of like importing this into the text a little bit, but I've been working hard to rebuild the estate while you were gone. You took a third of it and I've been working hard and now I'm granting you at the, at a minimum, like I'm granting you back what you took away, what you squandered. I'm giving it back to you. I'm restoring you, not just to neutral. I'm restoring you to this place of positive, favorable, gracious, loving communion with me, such that I'm gonna celebrate, I'm gonna give you the best things. I'm gonna kill the animal, and we're gonna have the best feasts, we're gonna have the most fun, we're gonna celebrate because you're alive. You're back, and you're alive. Right. That's an element that I had never even thought of in this. You know, the, the father is not supposed to be pictured in this parable as omniscient, right? He has to see the son coming back. I, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm my kid's only almost four years old, but I know a lot of people who have teenagers that they go out and like, they don't come back for days at a time. And that's a terrifying thing for a parent. Now imagine if he was off in a far country and you don't have phones, you don't have a cell phone, you can't track him on your iPhone. This, this father is, so, he probably had counted his son as dead right there. There probably wasn't another conclusion to make that when he disappears like that, this is a, this is a real return and a real resurrection in a sense, in this parable that we, we should not overlook, right? I think we think about the, the phrasing at the end there that your brother was lost and now he's fine. He was, he was dead and now he's alive. We think of that as like poetic or metaphorical or, or, or some sort of like hyperbolic statement. But in a very real sense in this instance, this son really did come back to life for this family and he was brought back to life and restored back to life by the grace of the father in in restoring him to this place of sonship. [00:57:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. That initial interaction, that requesting, that demanding is like a severing of the relationship. Yeah. It's basically saying, I wish to go away and to disconnect with you completely as if you were dead and I was a different person.  [00:58:00] Concluding Thoughts and Reflections [00:58:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so I think a great place to end, like you said, is let's be reminded that God's mercy is not reluctant, like God's mercy comes in hot. The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness. Praise God that his mercies are new every day. And here there are mercies for this son Yeah. By the way, before we end, I have to ask Tony, what flavor is the double imputation pie? Is that like a, is it a fruit pie or is that like a more of a cold, like custard based pie?  [00:58:42] Tony Arsenal: Well, you know, we do have a precedent on this podcast of talking about Exactly. Salvation.  [00:58:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:58:46] Tony Arsenal: Being the pie or the cake, right? So the cake is salvation. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's sweet and delicious. Maybe it's like a meat pie. Maybe it's like a good, like minced meat pie with all the, like, are you  [00:58:57] Jesse Schwamb: going  [00:58:57] Tony Arsenal: savory? Good protein? Yeah. Maybe it's a savory pie. Okay. I don't know.  [00:59:00] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.  [00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: I've never had a savory pie.  [00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I like, I, you know how you say that? I haven't either, but I would love like, what's it like steak and kidney? Isn't that like a famous.  [00:59:09] Tony Arsenal: That sounds awful.  [00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Well, isn't that like a, listen, do we have any brothers, sisters who are listening in in any of like the, yeah, the United Kingdom. Where are you guys at? Yeah, Daniel is a steak and kidney. Daniel, you  [00:59:19] Tony Arsenal: tell us. Daniel Steak and kidney a real thing.  [00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we need to know.  [00:59:24] Tony Arsenal: Okay.  [00:59:24] Jesse Schwamb: Is it good? Is it delicious? Would you describe it as a pie of double imputation again, steak, kidney? I'm thinking,  [00:59:34] Tony Arsenal: I don't even  [00:59:34] Jesse Schwamb: know. Tony's not, not convinced. So look at his face is like, we need to end this episode right  [00:59:39] Tony Arsenal: now. Yeah. Well, Jesse, I know how to end the episode. It's funny, it's funny. People, I'm glad people picked up on the little joke from last week, although it wasn't really a joke.  [00:59:49] Jesse Schwamb: No.  [00:59:50] Tony Arsenal: And I still have this recurring nightmare than we're gonna forget how to end the podcast. But last week we were trying a, a slightly different recording setup. [00:59:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:59:57] Tony Arsenal: And somehow, maybe this is our AI overlords playing some sort of joke on us. Somehow, right after talking about how we were gonna blow the ending, the system magically muted Jesse's microphone. I could see his hands. They were nowhere near the keyboard. There's no possible way  [01:00:13] Jesse Schwamb: in the air.  [01:00:14] Tony Arsenal: Just absolutely. The, the, the phone was like, or the recording software was like, not today boys. So we're on a different platform this time. Hopefully it won't do it.  [01:00:25] Jesse Schwamb: We're about to find out.  [01:00:27] Tony Arsenal: We will. When I say until next time, Jesse Honor. Everyone  [01:00:33] Jesse Schwamb: just kidding. Everybody  [01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: love the brotherhood. 

What happens when a son demands his father's life essence, squanders it in a far country, and returns expecting servanthood? In this theologically rich episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conduct a detailed exegetical study of Luke 15:11-24, revealing how the Parable of the Lost Son illustrates the core doctrines of regeneration, repentance, and double imputation. Through careful attention to the Greek text and systematic theology, the hosts demonstrate how this familiar parable captures the entire ordo salutis—the order of salvation. From the son's rebellion and spiritual death to his miraculous "coming to himself" and the father's extravagant restoration, this episode unpacks the gospel embedded in one of Scripture's most beloved stories, showing how God's mercy isn't reluctant but runs to meet repentant sinners. Key Takeaways The Son's Demand Reveals the Essence of Idolatry - When the younger son asks for his inheritance, he's not just requesting property but demanding his father's very life essence (Greek: ousia and bios), demonstrating how sin is fundamentally about wanting God's gifts without God Himself. Providence Exposes What Sin Conceals - The famine that strikes only in the far country reveals a theological pattern: hardship is not merely punishment but God's mercy waking us to the emptiness of life apart from Him. "Coming to Himself" Pictures Regeneration - The son's sudden realization about his father's goodness isn't the result of logical reasoning but represents the supernatural work of regeneration—coming to spiritual life and self-awareness under God. The Son's Planned Speech Reveals Works-Righteousness - The son's intention to ask for servanthood rather than sonship mirrors how many approach God, seeking to earn their standing through labor rather than trusting in grace alone. The Father's Response Demonstrates Double Imputation - By restoring the son not just to his former position but elevating him with robe, ring, and sandals, the father illustrates the gospel: our sins are removed and Christ's righteousness is credited to us. The Depths of Depravity Are Pictured in the Pig Pods - The "pods" (Greek: related to keratin) that the son desires are not edible vegetation but bone-like material, illustrating humanity's complete spiritual destitution apart from God. This Parable Contains a Complete Systematic Theology of Salvation - Luke 15:11-24 presents regeneration, repentance, faith (knowledge, assent, and trust), justification, and adoption in narrative form, making it one of Scripture's most comprehensive soteriological lessons. Key Concepts The Essence of Idolatry: Demanding God's Gifts Without God The Greek words used in this parable are theologically significant. When the son asks for "the share of property," Luke uses ousia (verse 12)—a word meaning "essence" or "being," familiar to students of Trinitarian theology. Later, the text says the father divided his bios (life) between them. As Tony Arsenal notes, these aren't the ordinary Greek words for material possessions. This linguistic choice reveals that the son isn't just asking for money—he's demanding his father's very life essence while rejecting the father himself. This captures the core nature of sin and idolatry: we want God's blessings, provisions, and gifts while spurning relationship with Him. We desire heaven's benefits without heaven's God. We want meaning, purpose, love, and satisfaction—all gifts that flow from the Father—but we want them on our terms, in our timing, apart from submission to His lordship. The parable's opening immediately confronts us with the audacity of our own hearts, which daily make the same demand: "Give me what I want, and then leave me alone." Every act of sin is fundamentally this request: the demand for God's good gifts while rejecting the Giver. Providence Exposes What Sin Conceals: The Mercy of Hardship Verse 14 marks a turning point: "When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished." Jesse Schwamb's observation is crucial: "Providence exposes what sin conceals." The famine doesn't occur everywhere—only in the far country where the son has fled. This isn't random; it's part of the parable's theological architecture. Sin promises freedom, pleasure, and satisfaction, but these promises are lies that only hardship exposes. The son believed his father's house was restrictive and that true life existed elsewhere. Only when famine struck did the deception become clear. God often uses difficulty not as mere punishment but as mercy—a severe mercy that strips away sin's facade and reveals its bankruptcy. The son needed to hit bottom, to desire even the inedible pods fed to pigs, before he could "come to himself." This pattern appears throughout Scripture and Christian experience. God allows us to taste the bitter fruit of our choices, not because He delights in our suffering, but because He loves us too much to leave us comfortable in our delusions. Hardship becomes the catalyst for repentance, the circumstance that makes us reconsider what we've rejected. As C.S. Lewis wrote, "Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." The famine was God's megaphone to this lost son. The Father's Response: Double Imputation in Narrative Form When the father sees his son returning, he doesn't wait for the full confession. He doesn't require a probationary period of servanthood. He doesn't negotiate terms. Instead, he runs—a shocking image in ancient Middle Eastern culture where patriarchs maintained dignity—and embraces his son before any words are spoken. Then come the symbols: the best robe, a ring, and sandals. These aren't random acts of generosity; they're covenant symbols of restored sonship and, remarkably, symbols of the firstborn's inheritance. The second-born son, who was entitled to one-third of the estate (which he'd already squandered), is now given the symbols that mark him as having the firstborn's two-thirds inheritance. He's elevated beyond his original position. This is the gospel of double imputation in parable form. In justification, God doesn't merely forgive our sins (removing our debt); He credits us with Christ's perfect righteousness (giving us Christ's inheritance). We don't return to spiritual neutrality; we're adopted as sons and daughters, made co-heirs with Christ, given "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:3). The father's response to the lost son illustrates what Paul teaches in Romans 5:1-2: we have not just peace with God but access into grace and the hope of glory. We're not merely forgiven servants—we're beloved children clothed in our Elder Brother's righteousness, welcomed into the family feast. Memorable Quotes This son felt it was owed to him. Haven't we all done this to God? We take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living. That's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here. - Tony Arsenal He comes to himself. There's nothing in the story that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself. He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources. That is a picture of regeneration. - Tony Arsenal God's mercy is not reluctant. God's mercy comes in hot. The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness his mercies are new every day. - Jesse Schwamb Full Episode Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: When he comes back, he's given all the symbols to say he's now guaranteed to have the two thirds. So he comes back to this position, where the father elevates him above his previous station That is the gospel of Jesus Christ that's double imputation baked into the pie. It's not just that. He goes, well. you spent all this stuff, but I guess we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back. start at zero, Zero is a servant in my house. work your way back up if you can.  [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:00:56] Parables and God's Word [00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words. And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak. So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son. We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God. Spoiler. We can and we'll,  [00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome? Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against?  [00:02:31] Tony's Nerdy Hobby: Dungeons and Dragons [00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths. [00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I  [00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think,  [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it.  [00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game. The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show. Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game. Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live. So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in.  [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we  [00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it. Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks. Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free. Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model. Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders. I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going. So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it.  [00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there. Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it.  [00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time. Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do. Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity. I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it. If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that. And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like. I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play. But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh,  [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow.  [00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long. So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it.  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now. Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades?  [00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story. Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right. And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right? Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but  [00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.  [00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think. [00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there. A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together.  [00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere. Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things. One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta nowhere. I was like, what if I sort of act as though I'm suspicious of this merchant now because why are we getting attacked all the time? And so I, I typed in sort of like a little. A mini role play of me accusing this guy. And it was something like, Randall, we get, we're getting attacked a lot for a simple merchant, Randall merchant. What happens if I cast a tech magic? What am I gonna find? And he's like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. I know I don't know anything. And then I cast a tech magic and it shifted. I mean, I don't know where the campaign was gonna go before that, but it shifted the whole thing now where the person who gave him the package he was carrying had betrayed him. It was, so that happens in real life too in these games, real life in these games. That happens in real, in-person sessions too, where a player or a group of players may just decide instead of talking to the contact person that is supposed to give them the clue to find the dungeon they're supposed to go to, instead they ambush them and murder them in gold blood. And now the, the dungeon master has to figure out, how do I get them back to this dungeon when this is the only person that was supposed to know where it is? So it, it does end up really stretching your thinking skills and sort of your improvisational skills. There's an element of, um, you know, like chance with the dice, um, I guess like the dice falls in the lot, but the lot is in the handle. Or like, obviously that's all ordained as well too, but there is this element of chance where even the DM doesn't get to determine everything. Um, if, if I say I want to, I want to try to sneak into this room, but I'm a giant barbarian who has, you know, is wearing like chain mail, there's still a chance I could do it, but the dice roll determines that. It's not like the, the GM just says you can't do that. Um, so it's, it's a, I, I like it. I'm, I'm really looking forward to trying to, getting into it. It is hard to start a group and to get going and, um, there's a part of me that's a little bit. Gun shy of maybe like getting too invested with a group of non-Christians for something like this. 'cause it can get a little weird sometimes. But I think that, I think that'll work out. It'll be fun. I know there's actually some people in our telegram chat. Bing, bing, bing segue. There we go. There's some people in our telegram chat actually, that we're already planning to do a campaign. Um, so we might even do like a virtual reform brotherhood, Dungeons and Dragons group. So that might be a new sub channel in the telegram at some point.  [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. You could jump right in. Go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood.  [00:14:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming since I just spent the last 15 minutes gushing about my nerdy hobby?  [00:14:23] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, that was great. Can I, can I just say two things? One is, so you're basically saying it's a bit like, like a troll shows up and everybody's like, yes. And yeah. So I love that idea. Second thing, which is follow up question, very brief. What kind of merchant was Randall.  [00:14:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, he was a spice trader actually.  [00:14:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I don't trust that.  [00:14:43] Tony Arsenal: And, and silk, silk and spices.  [00:14:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's double, that's too strict.  [00:14:47] Tony Arsenal: He was actually good guy in the, in the story that developed out of this campaign. He actually became part of my family and like, like, like got adopted into the family because he lost everything on his own. Randy we're  [00:15:00] Jesse Schwamb: talking about Randy.  [00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Randy Randall with one L. Yeah. The AI was very specific about  that.  [00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: There's, there's nothing about this guy I trust. I, is this still ongoing? Because I think he's just trying to make his way deeper in,  [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: uh, no, no. It, I'll, I'll wait for next week to tell you how much, even more nerdy this thing gets. But there's a whole thing that ha there was a whole thing out of this That's a tease. Tease. There was a, there was a horse and the horse died and there was lots of tears and there was a wedding and a baby. It was, it's all sorts of stuff going on in this campaign. [00:15:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I'm sure. Randy was somewhere near that horse when it happened. Right?  [00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: It was his horse.  [00:15:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. That's  [00:15:35] Tony Arsenal: exactly, he didn't, he didn't kill the horse. He had no power to knock down the bridge The horse was standing on.  [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, next week, I'm pretty sure that's what we're gonna learn is that it was all him. [00:15:45] Tony Arsenal: Alright, Jesse, save us from this. Save us from this, please. Uh,  [00:15:49] Jesse Schwamb: no.  What  [00:15:50] Tony Arsenal: you affirming, this is  [00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: great.  [00:15:50] Jesse's Affirmation: Church Community [00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's possible that there is a crossover between yours and mine if we consider. That the church is like playing a d and d game in the dungeon Masters Christ, and the campaigns, the gospel. So I was thinking maybe is it possible, uh, maybe this is just the, the theology of the cross, but that sometimes, like you need the denial to get to the affirmation. Have we talked about that kind of truth? Yeah,  [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: yeah,  [00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. So here's a little bit of that. I'll be very, very brief and I'm using this not as like just one thing that happened today, but what I know is for sure happening all over the world. And I mean that very literally, not just figuratively when it comes to the body of Christ, the local church. So it snowed here overnight. This was, this is the Lord's Day. We're hanging out in the Lord's Day, which is always a beautiful day to talk about God. And overnight it snowed. The snow stopped relatively late in the morning around the time that everybody would be saying, Hey, it's time to go and worship the Lord. So for those in my area, I got up, we did the whole clearing off the Kai thing. I went to church and I was there a little bit early for a practice for music. And when I pulled in, there weren't many there yet, but the whole parking lot unplowed. So there's like three inches of snow, unplowed parking lot. So I guess the denial is like the plow people decided like, not this time I, I don't think so. They understood they were contracted with the church, but my understanding is that when one of the deacons called, they were like, Ooh, yeah, we're like 35 minutes away right now, so that's gonna be a problem. So when I pulled in, here's what I was. Like surprise to find, but in a totally unexpected way, even though I understand what a surprise is. And that is that, uh, that first the elders and the deacons, everybody was just decided we're going to shovel an entire parking lot. And at some point big, I was a little bit early there, but at some point then this massive text change just started with everybody, which was, Hey, when you come to church, bring your shovel. And I, I will tell you like when I got out of the car. I was so like somebody was immediately running to clear a path with me. One of those like snow pushers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like one, those beastly kind of like blade things.  [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Those things are, those things are the best.  [00:17:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You just run. And so you have never met a group of people that was more happy to shovel an entire large asphalt area, which normally shouldn't even be required. And. It just struck me, even in hindsight now thinking about it, it was this lovely confluence of people serving each other and serving God. It was as if they got up that morning and said, do you know what would be the best thing in the world for me to do is to shovel. And so everybody was coming out. Everybody was shoveling it. It was to protect everyone and to allow one into elaborate, one access. It was just incredible. And so I started this because the affirmation is, I know this happens in, in all of our churches, every God fearing God, loving God serving church, something like this is happening, I think on almost every Lord's day or maybe every day of the week in various capacities. And I just think this is God's people coming together because everybody, I think when we sat down for the message was exhausted, but. But there was so much joy in doing this. I think what you normally would find to be a mundane and annoying task, and the fact that it wasn't just, it was redeemed as if like we, we found a greater purpose in it. But that's, everyone saw this as a way to love each other and to love God, and it became unexpected worship in the parking lot. That's really what it was, and it was fantastic. I really almost hope that we just get rid of the plow company and just do it this way from now on. Yeah, so I'm affirming, recognize people, recognize brothers and sisters that your, your church is doing this stuff all the time and, and be a part of it. Jump in with the kinda stuff because I love how it brings forward the gospel.  [00:19:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. It's a great, uh, a great example of the body of Christ being, what the body of Christ is and just pulling together to get it done. Um, which, you know, we do on a spiritual level, I think, more often than a physical level these days. Right, right. But, um, that's great. I'm sitting here going three inches of snow. I would've just pulled into the lot and then pulled out of the lot. But New Hampshire, it hits different in New Hampshire. Like we all d have snow tires and four wheel drive.  [00:20:02] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's enough snow where it was like pretty wet and heavy that it, if, you know, you pack that stuff down, it gets slick. You can't see the people, like you can't have your elderly people just flying in, coming in hot and then trying to get outta the vehicle, like making their way into church.  [00:20:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:15] Jesse Schwamb: So there was, there was a lot more of that. But I think again, you would, one of the options would've been like, Hey, why don't we shovel out some sp spaces for the, for those who need it, for, you know, those who need to have access in a way that's a little bit less encumbered. Oh, no, no. These people are like, I see your challenge and I am going to shovel the entire parking lots.  [00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It used to happen once in a while, uh, at the last church, uh, at, um, your dad's church. We would, where the plow would just not come on a Sunday morning or, or more often than not. Um, you know, what happens a lot of times is the plows don't want to come more than once. Right. If they don't have to. Or sometimes they won't come if they think it's gonna melt because they don't want to deal with, uh, with like customers who are mad that you plowed and that it all melts. But either way, once in a while. The plow wouldn't come or it wouldn't come in time. And what we would do is instead of trying to shovel an entire driveway thing, we would just went, the first couple people who would get there, the young guys in the church, there was only a couple of us, but the younger guys in the church would just, we would just be making trips, helping people into the, yeah. Helping people into the building. So, um, it was a pretty, you know, it was a small church, so it was like six trips and we'd have everybody in, but um, we just kind of, that was the way we pulled together. Um, yeah, that's a great, it's a great story. I love, I love stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Whether it's, whether it's, you know, plowing a, a parking lot with shovels instead of a plow, or it's just watching, um, watching the tables and the chairs from the fellowship, you know, all just like disappear because everybody's just, uh, picks up after themselves and cleans and stuff. That's, that's like the most concrete example of the body of Christ doing what the body of Christ does. Um, it's always nice, you know, we always hear jokes about like, who can carry the most, the most chairs,  [00:22:04] Jesse Schwamb: most  [00:22:04] Tony Arsenal: chairs. Uh, I think it's true. Like a lot of times I think like I could do like seven or eight sometimes. [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, you, that's, so, one more thing I wanna say. I, I wanted to tell you this privately, Tony, 'cause it just cracked me up 'cause I, you'll appreciate this. But now I'm realizing I think the brothers and sisters who listened to us talk for any length of time and in the context of this conversation, but the church will appreciate this too. On my way out, I, I happened because I was there early and the snow was crazy. I parked way further out, way on the edge of the lot to just allow for greater access because of all the shoveling that was happening. And by the way, I really hope there were a ton of visitors this morning because they were like, wow, this, this church is wild. They love to shovel their own lot and they're the happiest people doing it. Some sweaty person just ushered me in while they were casting snow. Like,  [00:22:47] Tony Arsenal: is this some new version of snake handling? You shovel your own lot and your impervious to back injuries.  [00:22:53] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. So I was walking out and as I walked past, uh, there was a, uh, two young gentlemen who were congregating by this very large lifted pickup truck, which I don't have much experience with, but it looked super cool and it was started, it was warming up, and they were just like casually, like in the way that only like people with large beards wearing flannel and Carhartt kind of do, like casually leaning against the truck, talking in a way that you're like, wow, these guys are rugged. And they sound, they're super cool, and they're probably like in their twenties. And all I hear as I pass by is one guy going, yeah, well, I mean that's, I was, I said to them too, but I said, listen, I'd rather go to a church with God-fearing women than anywhere else.  [00:23:36] Tony Arsenal: Nice.  [00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: I was just like, yep. On the prowl and I love it. And they're not wrong. This is the place to be.  [00:23:42] Tony Arsenal: It is.  [00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is the place to be. Yeah. So all kinds of, all kinds of good things I think going on in that in the house of the Lord and where wherever you're at, I would say be happy and be joyful and look for those things and participate in, like you said, whether it's physical or not, but as soon as you said like the, our young men, our youth somehow have this competition of when we need to like pack up the sanctuary. How many chairs can I take at one time? Yeah. It's like the classic and it just happens. Nobody says like, okay, everybody line up. We're about to embark on the competition now. Like the strong man usher competition. It's just like, it just happens and  [00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: it's  [00:24:17] Jesse Schwamb: incredible.  [00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: I mean, peacocks fan out their tail feathers. Young Christian guys fan out. All of the table chairs, chairs they can carry. It's uh, it's a real phenomena. So I feel like if you watch after a men's gathering, everybody is like carrying one chair at a time because they don't wanna hurt their backs and their arms. Oh, that's  [00:24:36] Jesse Schwamb: true. That's  [00:24:37] Tony Arsenal: what I do. Yeah. But it's when the women are around, that's when you see guys carrying like 19 chairs. Yeah. Putting themselves in the hospital.  [00:24:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I, listen, it comes for all of us. Like I, you know, I'm certainly not young anymore by almost any definition, but even when I'm in the mix, I'm like, oh, I see you guys. You wanna play this game? Mm-hmm. Let's do this. And then, you know, I'm stacking chairs until I hurt myself. So it's great. That's, that is what we do for each other. It's  [00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: just, I hurt my neck getting outta bed the other day. So it happens. It's real.  [00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: The struggle. Yeah, the struggle is real.  [00:25:07] The Parable of the Lost Son [00:25:07] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of struggle, speaking of family issues, speaking of all kinds of drama, let's get into Luke 15 and let me read just, I would say the first part of this parable, which as we've agreed to talk about, if we can even get this far, it's just the younger son. [00:25:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:25:25] Jesse Schwamb: And again, don't worry, we're gonna get to all of it, but let me read beginning in, uh, verse 11 here. This is Luke chapter 15. Come follow along as you will accept if you're operating heavy machinery. And Jesus said, A man had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me. So he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country. And there he squandered his estate living recklessly. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country and it began to be impoverished. So he went and hired himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. So he went and as he was desiring to be fed with the pods that the swine were eating because no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger. I'll rise up and go to my father, and I'll say to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. So he rose up, came to his father, but while he was still a long way off. His father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him. And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us celebrate. For the son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he has been found and they began to celebrate.  [00:27:09] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a, um, such a, I don't know, like pivotal seminal parable in the Ministry of Christ. Um, it's one of those parables and we, we mentioned this briefly last week that even most. It, it hasn't passed out of the cultural zeitgeist yet. A lot of biblical teaching has, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of things that used to be common knowledge where, where you could make a reference to something in the Bible and people would just get it. Um, even if they weren't Christian or weren't believers, they would still know what you were talking about. There's a lot of things in the Bible that have passed out of that cultural memory. The, the parable of the prodigal son, lost son, however you wanna phrase it, um, that's not one of them. Right. So I think it's really important for us, um, and especially since it is such a beautiful picture of the gospel and it has so many different theological touch points, it's really incumbent on us to spend time thinking about this because I would be willing to bet that if you weave. Elements of this parable into your conversations with nonbelievers that you are praying for and, and, you know, witnessing to and sharing the gospel with, if you weave this in there, you're gonna help like plant some seeds that when it comes time to try to harvest, are gonna pay dividends. Right. So I think it's a really, it's a really great thing that we're gonna be able to spend, you know, a couple weeks really just digging into this. [00:28:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and to define the beginning, maybe from the end, just slightly here, I like what you said about this cultural acknowledgement of this. I think one of the correctives we can provide, which is clear in the story, is in the general cultural sense. We speak of this prodigal as something that just returns comes back, was lost, but now is found. And often maybe there is this component of, in the familial relationship, it's as if they've been restored. Here we're gonna of course find that this coming to one senses is in fact the work of God. That there is, again, a little bit of denial that has to bring forward the affirmation here that is the return. And so again, from the beginning here, we're just talking about the younger son. We have more than youthful ambition.  [00:29:19] The Essence of Idolatry and Sin [00:29:19] Jesse Schwamb: This heart of, give me the stuff now, like so many have said before, is really to say. Give me the gifts and not you, which is, I think, a common fault of all Christians. We think, for instance of heaven, and we think of all the blessings that come with it, but not necessarily of the joy of just being with our savior, being with Christ. And I think there's something here right from the beginning, there's a little bit of this betrayal in showing idolatry, the ugliness of treating God's gifts as if there's something owed. And then this idea that of course. He receives these things and imme more or less immediately sometime after he goes and takes these things and squanderers them. And sin and idolatry, I think tends to accelerate in this way. The distance from the father becomes distance from wisdom. We are pulled away from that, which is good. The father here being in his presence and being under his care and his wisdom and in his fear of influence and concern, desiring then to say, I don't want you just give me the gifts that you allegedly owe me. And then you see how quickly like sin does everything you, we always say like, sin always costs more than you want to pay. And it always takes you further than you want to go. And that's exactly what we see here. Like encapsulated in an actual story of relationship and distance.  [00:30:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um. It's interesting to me.  [00:30:39] The Greek Words for Property [00:30:39] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, I'm a big fan of saying you don't need to study Greek to understand your Bible, but I'm also a big fan of saying understanding a little bit of Greek is really helpful. And one of the things that I think is really intriguing, and I haven't quite parsed out exactly what I think this means, but the word property in this parable, it actually is two different Greek words that is translated as property, at least in the ESV. And neither one of them really fit. What our normal understanding of property would be. And there are Greek words that refer to like all of your material possessions, but it says, father, give me the share of property. And he uses the word usia, which those of us who have heard anything about the trinity, which is all of us, um, know that that word means something about existence. It's the core essence of a person. So it says, father, give me the share of usia that is coming to me. And then it says, and he divided his bias, his, his life between them. Then it says, not many days later, the younger son gathered all that he had took a journey into the far country. There he squandered his usia again. So this, this parable, Christ is not using the ordinary words to refer to material, uh, material accumulation and property like. I think probably, you know, Christ isn't like randomly using these words. So there probably is an element that these were somehow figuratively used of one's life possessions. But the fact that he's using them in these particular ways, I think is significant. [00:32:10] The Prodigal Son's Misconception [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: And so the, the, the younger son here, and I don't even like calling this the prodigal sun parable because the word prodigal doesn't like the equivalent word in Greek doesn't appear in this passage. And prodigal doesn't mean like the lost in returned, like prodigal is a word that means like the one who spends lavishly, right? So we call him the prodigal son because he went and he squandered all of his stuff and he spent all of his money. So it doesn't even really describe the main feature or the main point of why this, this parable is here. It's just sort of like a random adjective that gets attached to it. But all of that aside, um. This parable starts off not just about wasting our property, like wasting our things, but it's a parable that even within the very embedded language of the parable itself is talking about squandering our very life, our very essence, our very existence is squandered and wasted as we depart from the Father. Right? And this is so like, um, it's almost so on the head, on the on the nose that it's almost a little like, really Jesus. Like this is, this is so like, slap you in the face kind of stuff. This is right outta like Romans, uh, Romans one, like they did not give thanks to God. They did not show gratitude to God or acknowledge him as God. This is what's happening in this parable. The son doesn't go to his father and say, father, I love you. I'm so happy to stay with you. I'm so happy to be here. He, he basically says like. Give me your very life essence, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go spend it on prostitutes. I'm gonna go waste your life, father, I'm gonna waste your life, your existence, your bias. I'm gonna go take that and I'm gonna squander it on reckless living. And I guess we don't know for sure. He, it doesn't say he spends it on prostitutes. That's something his brother says later and assumes he did. So I, I don't know that we do that. But either way, I'm gonna take what's yours, your very life, your very essence. And also that my life, my essence, the gift you've given me as my father, you've given me my life. In addition now to your life or a portion of your life. And I'm gonna go squander that on reckless living, right? Like, how much of a picture of sin is that, that we, we take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living. That that's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here.  [00:34:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that, that's a great point because it's, it would be one thing to rebel over disobedience, another thing to use the very life essence that you've been given for destructive, self-destructive purposes. And then to use that very energy, which is not yours to begin with, but has been imbued in yours, external, all of these things. And then to use that very thing as the force of your rebellion. So it's double insult all the way around. I'm with you in the use of Greek there. Thank you. Locus Bio software. Not a sponsor of the podcast, but could be. And I think that's why sometimes in translations you get the word like a state because it's like the closest thing we can have to understanding that it's property earned through someone's life more or less. Yeah. And then is passed down, but as representative, not just of like, here's like 20 bucks of cash, but something that I spent all of me trying to earn and. And to your point, also emphasizing in the same way that this son felt it was owed him. So it's like really bad all around and I think we would really be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't think that there's like a little bit of Paul washer saying in this, like I'm talking about you though. So like just be like, look at how disrespectful the sun is. Yeah. Haven't we all done this? To God and bringing up the idea of prodigal being, so that, that is like the amazing juxtaposition, isn't it? Like Prodigal is, is spent recklessly, parsimonious would be like to, to save recklessly, so to speak. And then you have the love the father demonstrates coming against all of that in the same way with like a totally different kind of force. So.  [00:36:02] The Famine and Realization [00:36:02] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting, and I think this is like set up in exactly what you said, is that when you get to verse 14 and this famine comes, it's showing us, I think that like providence exposes what Sin conceals.  [00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:36:16] Jesse Schwamb: And want arrives. Not just because like the money ran out, but because again, like these idols, what he's replaced the father with, they don't satisfy. And repentance then often begins when God shows the emptiness of light apart life apart from him. That's like the affirmation being born out of the denial. And so I think that this also is evolving for us, this idea that God is going to use hardship, not as mere punishment, but as mercy that wakes us up and that the son here is being woken up, but not, of course, it's not as if he goes into the land, like you said, starts to spend, is like, whoa, hold on a second. This seems like a bad idea. It's not until all of that sin ever, like the worship of false things collapses under its own weight before it, which is like the precursor of the antecedent, I think, to this grand repentance or this waking up.  [00:37:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also think it's, um.  [00:37:08] The Depths of Desperation [00:37:08] Tony Arsenal: A feature of this that I haven't reflected on too deeply, but is, is worth thinking about is the famine that's described here only occurs in this far country that he's in. [00:37:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:37:17] Tony Arsenal: Right. So even that's right. And this is like a multitude of foolish decisions. This is compounding foolish decisions that don't, don't make any sense. Like they don't really actually make any sense. Um. There's not a logic to this, this lost son's decision making. He takes the property. Okay. I guess maybe like you could be anxious to get your inheritance, but then like he takes it to a far country. Like there's no reason for him to do that. If at any point through this sort of insane process he had stopped short, he would not have been in the situation he was in. Yes. And that, I love that phrase, that providence, you know, reveals, I don't know exactly how you said it, but like providence reveals what our sin can bring to us. Like he first see sins against his father by sort of like demanding, demanding his inheritance early. Then he takes it and he leaves his country for no reason. He goes to this far country, then he spends everything and then the famine arises. Right? And the famine arises in this other country.  [00:38:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:38:13] Tony Arsenal: And that's, I think that is still again, like a picture of sin. Like we. We don't just, we don't just take what the father has and, and like spend it like that would be bad enough if we weren't grateful for what we have and what we've been given, and we just waste it. But on top of that, now we also have taken ourselves to a far country. Like we've gone away from the good, the good land of the Lord, as those who are not regenerate. We've gone away from the, the Lord into this far country. And it's not until we start to have this famine that we recognize what we've done. And again, this is, this is where I think we get a picture. There's so many theological, like points in this parable particular that it almost feels a little bit like a, like a. Parable that's intended to teach some systematic theology about for sure, the oral salus, which I think there's probably a lot of like biblical theology people that are ready to just crawl through the screen and strangle me for saying that. But this is such a glorious picture of, of regeneration too. [00:39:16] The Journey Back to the Father [00:39:16] Tony Arsenal: Like he comes to himself, there's nothing, there's nothing in the story that's like, oh, and the servant that he was, the other servant he was talking to mentioned that the famine, like there's nothing here that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself. He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources, and has takes care of his, of his servants on top of how he takes care of his sons. That is a picture of regeneration. There's no, yeah. Logical, like I'm thinking my way into it, he just one day realizes how much, how many of my father's servants have more than enough bread. Right. But I'm perishing here in this, this foolish other country with nothing. Right. I can't even, and the, the pods that the pigs ate, we can even, we can get into the pods a little bit here, but like. He wants to eat the pods. The pods that he's giving the pigs are not something that's even edible to humans. He's that destitute, that he's willing to eat these pods that are like, this is the leftover stuff that you throw to the pigs because no, no, nobody and nothing else can actually eat it. And that's the state he's in at the very bottom, in the very end of himself where he realizes my father is good and he loves me, and even if I can never be his son again, surely he'll take care of me. I mentioned it last week, like he wasn't going back thinking that this was gonna be a failing proposition. He went back because he knew or he, he was confident that his father was going to be able to take care of him and would accept him back. Right. Otherwise, what would be the point of going back? It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, um, a mission he expected to fail at. He expected there to be a positive outcome or he wouldn't have done it. Like, it wouldn't make any sense to try that if there wasn't the hope of some sort of realistic option.  [00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: And I think his confidence in that option, as you were saying, is in this way where he's constructed a transaction. Yeah. That he's gonna go back and say, if you'll just take me out as a slave, I know you have slaves, I will work for you. Right. Therefore, I feel confident that you'll accept me under those terms because I'll humble myself. And why would you not want to remunerate? Me for the work that I put forward. So you're right, like it's, it's strange that he basically comes to this, I think, sense that slavery exists in his life and who would he rather be the slave of,  [00:41:38] Tony Arsenal: right? [00:41:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so he says, listen, I'm gonna come to the father and give him this offer. And I'm very confident that given that offer and his behavior, what I know about how he treats his other slaves, that he will hire me back because there's work to do. And therefore, as a result of the work I put forward, he will take care of me. How much of like contemporary theology is being preached in that very way right now?  [00:41:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:41:59] Jesse Schwamb: And that's really like why the minimum wages of sin is all of this stuff. It's death. It's the consequences that we're speaking about here. By the way, the idea about famine is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that. It is interesting, again, that sin casts him out into this foreign place where the famine occurs. And that famine is the beginning of his realization of the true destruction, really how far he's devolved and degraded in his person and in his relationships and in his current states. And then of course, the Bible is replete with references and God moving through famine. And whereas in Genesis, we have a local famine, essentially casting Joseph brothers into a foreign land to be freed and to be saved.  [00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: Right.  [00:42:40] Jesse Schwamb: We have the exact opposite, which is really kind of interesting. Yeah. So we probably should talk about, you know, verse 15 and the, and the pig stuff. I mean, I think the obvious statement here is that. It would be scandalous, like a Jewish hero would certainly feel the shame of the pigs. They represent UNC cleanliness and social humiliation. I'm interested again, in, in this idea, like you've started us on that the freedom that this younger brother sought for becomes slavery. It's kind of bondage of the wills style. Yeah. Stuff. There's like an, an attentiveness in the story to the degrading reversal in his condition. And it is interesting that we get there finally, like the bottom of the pit maybe, or the barrel is like you said, the pods, which it's a bit like looking at Tide pods and being like, these are delicious. I wish I could just eat these. So I, I think your point isn't lost. Like it's not just that like he looked at something gross and was so his stomach was grumbling so much that he might find something in there that he would find palatable. It, it's more than that. It's like this is just total nonsense. It, this is Romans one. [00:43:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these pods, like, these aren't, um, you know, I guess I, I don't know exactly what these are. I'm sure somebody has done all of the historical linguistic studies, but the Greek word is related to the, the word for keratin. So like the, the same, the same root word. And we have to be careful not to define a Greek word based on how we use it. That's a reverse etymology fallacy. Like dunamis doesn't mean dynamite, it's the other direction. But the Greek word is used in other places, in Greek literature to describe like the horns of rhinoc, like,  [00:44:21] Jesse Schwamb: right,  [00:44:21] Tony Arsenal: this, these aren't like. These aren't pea pods. I've heard this described like these are like little vegetable pods. No, this is like they're throwing pieces of bone to the pigs.  [00:44:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:44:31] Tony Arsenal: And the pigs, the pigs can manage it. And this is what this also like, reinforces how destitute and how deep the famine is. Like this isn't as though, like this is the normal food you give to pigs. Like usually you feed pigs, like you feed pigs, like the extra scraps from your table and like other kinds of like agricultural waste. These are, these are like chunks of bony keratin that are being fed to the pigs. So that's how terrible the famine is that not even the pigs are able to get food.  [00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:45:00] Tony Arsenal: They're given things that are basically inedible, but the pigs can manage it. And this, this kid is so hungry, he's so destitute that he says, man, I wish I could chew on those bony, those bony pods that I'm feeding them because that's how hungry and starved I am. You get the picture that this, um. This lost son is actually probably not just metaphorically on the brink of death, but he's in real risk of starvation, real risk of death that he, he can't even steal. He can't even steal from the pigs what they're eating, right? Like he can't even, he can't even glean off of what the pigs are eating just to stay alive. He, he's literally in a position where he has no hope of actually rescuing himself. The only thing that he can do, and this is the realization he has, the only thing he can do is throw himself back on the mercy of his father.  [00:45:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:45:50] Tony Arsenal: right. And, and hope, again, I think hope with confidence, but hope that his father will show mercy on him and his, his conception. I wanna be careful in this parable not to, I, I think there's something to what you're getting at or kinda what you're hinting at, that like his conception of mercy is. Not the full picture of the gospel. Yes. His conception of mercy is that he's going to be able to go and work and be rewarded for his laborers in a way that he can survive. And the gospel is so much broader and so much bigger than that. But at the same time, I think it's, it's actually also a confident hope, a faith-filled hope that his father's mercy is going to rescue him, is going to save him. So it is this picture of what we do. And, and I think, I think sometimes, um, I want to be careful how we say this 'cause I don't wanna, I don't want to get a bunch of angry emails and letters, but I think sometimes we, um, we make salvation too much of a theology test. And there's probably people that are like, Tony, did you really just say that? I think there are people who trust in the Lord Jesus thinking that that means something akin to what. This lost son thinks  [00:47:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:47:03] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. They trust. They trust that Jesus is merciful and, and I'm not necessarily thinking of Roman Catholics. I'm not thinking of Roman Catholic theology for sure. I do think there are a fair number of Roman Catholic individuals that fall into this category where they trust Jesus to save them. Right. They just don't fully understand exactly what Jesus means, what that means for them to be saved. They think that Christ is a savior who will provide a way for them to be saved by His grace that requires them to contribute something to it. Arminians fall into that category. Right. I actually think, and I, I think there's gonna be if, if there's, if the one Lutheran who listens to our show hears this is gonna be mad, but I actually think Lutheran theology kind of falls into this in a sort of negative fashion in that you have to not resist grace in order to be saved. So I think. That is something we should grapple with is that there are people who fit into that category, but this is still a faith-filled, hope-filled confidence in the mercy of the father in this parable that he's even willing to make the journey back. Right? This isn't like right, he walks from his house down the street or from the other side of town. He's wandering back from a far country. He, he went into a far country. He has to come back from a far country. And yes, the father greets him from afar and sees him from afar. But we're not talking about like from a far country. Like he sees him coming down the road, it, he has to travel to him, and this is a picture of. The hope and the faith that we have to have to return to God, to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ, trusting that he has our best interest in mind, that he has died for us, and that it is for us. Right? There's the, the knowledge of what Christ has done, and then there's the ascent to the truth of it. And then the final part of faith is the confidence or the, the faith in trust in the fact that, that is for me as well, right? This, this is a picture of that right here. I, I don't know why we thought we were gonna get through the whole thing in one week, Jesse. We're gonna spend at least two weeks on this lost son, or at least part of the second week here. But he, this is, this is also like a picture of faith. This is why I say this as like a systematic theology lesson on soteriology all packed into here. Because not only do we have, like what is repentance and or what does regeneration look like? It's coming to himself. What does repentance look like? Yes. Turning from your sins and coming back. What is, what is the orde solis? Well, there's a whole, there's a whole thing in here. What is the definition of faith? Well, he knows that his father is good. That he has more than enough food for his servants. He, uh, is willing to acknowledge the truth of that, and he's willing to trust in that, in that he's willing to walk back from a far country in order to lay claim to that or to try to lay claim to it. That's a picture of faith right there, just in all three parts. Right. It's, it's really quite amazing how, how in depth this parable goes on this stuff,  [00:49:54] Jesse Schwamb: right? Yeah. It's wild to note that as he comes to himself, he's still working. Yeah, in that far off country. So this shows again that sin is this cruel master. He hits the bottom, he wants the animal food, but he's still unfed. And this is all the while again, he has some kind of arrangement where he is trying to work his way out of that and he sees the desperation. And so I'm with you, you know, before coming to Christ, A person really, I think must come to themselves and that really is like to say they need to have a sober self-knowledge under God, right? Yeah. Which is, as we said before, like all this talk about, well Jesus is the answer. We better be sure what the question is. And that question is who am I before God? And this is why, of course, you have to have the law and gospel, or you have to have the the bad news before you can have the good news. And really, there's all of this bad news that's delivered here and this repentance, like you've been saying, it's not just mere regret, we know this. It's a turning, it's a reorientation back to the father. He says, I will arise and go to my father. So yeah, also it demonstrates to me. When we do come to ourselves when there's a sober self-knowledge under God, there is a true working out of salvation that necessarily requires and results in some kind of action, right? And that is the mortification of sin that is moving toward God again, under his power and direction of the Holy Spirit. But still there is some kind of movement on our part. And so that I think is what leads then in verse 19, as you're saying, the son and I do love this 'cause I think this goes right back to like the true hope that he has, even though it might be slightly corrupted or slightly washed out because it's not like the full, bright colors of the gospel in its entirety. But he doesn't deny that he's the son. He just ows that he's his worthiness. And so there's like a tender conscience somewhere in there concluding like I must, we can say like, well, I must not really be truly God's own, or God would never take me as I am. And so what we have here, I think is this lesson reminder of God, the difference between identity and harmony with God. That harmony often gets disrupted because of our own sin, but this son here recognizes that he is still the son. And so I think he, he knows his father, like you're saying. I think he hopes for the best, but what he wants to put forward is, can I just come and be a slave in your house? Which incidentally is what he will become, but under better pretenses of saying, well, you will maintain you sonship because of some kind of meritorious earning, which is where we're all tempted to go because it feels better. It feels more safe than trusting and embracing and receiving the fathers recklessly spend thrift love, which actually is the thing that keeps us in the identity of being a son or a daughter of God. So you're right, there's so much that's happening. Underneath there that, I mean, I'm sure some Puritan has written about that in probably 50,000 words. [00:52:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:52:36] Jesse Schwamb: But there's so much there because I'm with you. I think there is a great hope because of understanding his identity, and yet he knows the harmony is disrupted to such a degree that what he also trusts in is that worst case scenario, I would rather be a slave for my father than I would rather be a slave to sin. And I think only until you come to that place, only when you understand that you are a slave to something, into someone, that you actually start to ask, well, how good is my master? That there is a coming to yourself, which leads to repentance and God uses in his grand providence, all kinds of past, all kinds of undertakings, all kinds of campaigns, if you will, to bring us to that place. But he must bring us to that place before we can have true repentance.  [00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:53:20] The Father's Unconditional Mercy [00:53:20] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it more, but just because I, I don't feel great about, uh. Sort of throwing out the law in some ways and not finishing with the gospel.  [00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get to the gospel.  [00:53:31] Tony Arsenal: The, the father's correction of this is again, like this is the systematic theology correction. The son comes and he says, or he's planning on saying, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. When we get to the father. The father cuts him off as I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.  [00:53:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.  [00:53:49] Tony Arsenal: So he doesn't, he doesn't let him get to the point of, of proposing the meritorious salvation that he thought he was going to get. He, he lets him acknowledge, right? He, the father, lets him acknowledge that he's no longer worthy of being his son, and then essentially says, but that doesn't matter because I am worthy of being your father, and I will make you my son again. That that's what he does. He brings the robe, he brings the sandal, he brings the ring, he restores and elevates him to a position of sonship that he didn't even before he left, didn't fully have. We'll talk about that and we'll talk about it again. He, he doesn't come home and come back to being the second son. He comes back home. And this is part of why the older son is so annoyed, is he's actually elevated to the place of the firstborn.  [00:54:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: By, by begin being given all these symbols of inheritance. And, and this is, you know, this is the other thing, and maybe we'll talk about this more when we get to the, get to what the father gives him. But in Jewish custom and in the Jewish law, the second born son would get, would get one third of the estate. And so he comes back and one third of, I mean, who knows? We don't know how long this trip is. We don't know how long he's been gone. We don't know how, um, how much the estate has been rebuilt. Obviously, the father is still working. It's not as though like his estate is just like stagnant and neutral, but when he comes back, a third of the estate has been wiped out by his reckless living. When he comes back, he's  basically  given all the symbols to say  that  he's now guaranteed to have  the,  the two thirds.  [00:55:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:55:23] Tony Arsenal: So he comes back to this position,  into this estate  where the father elevates him  back to and  above his previous station  of sonship.  That is the gospel of Jesus Christ  right there. [00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: That's double imputation baked into the pie.  Amen. It's not,  it's not just that. He goes, well.  Yeah,  you spent all this stuff, but I guess  like we can,  we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back.  You can  start at zero,  I guess.  Zero is a servant in my house.  Go ahead and  work your way back up if you can. Right. He comes back and the father says like, well, I've been working hard. I mean, I'm kind of like importing this into the text a little bit, but I've been working hard to rebuild the estate while you were gone. You took a third of it and I've been working hard and now I'm granting you at the, at a minimum, like I'm granting you back what you took away, what you squandered. I'm giving it back to you. I'm restoring you, not just to neutral. I'm restoring you to this place of positive, favorable, gracious, loving communion with me, such that I'm gonna celebrate, I'm gonna give you the best things. I'm gonna kill the animal, and we're gonna have the best feasts, we're gonna have the most fun, we're gonna celebrate because you're alive. You're back, and you're alive. Right. That's an element that I had never even thought of in this. You know, the, the father is not supposed to be pictured in this parable as omniscient, right? He has to see the son coming back. I, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm my kid's only almost four years old, but I know a lot of people who have teenagers that they go out and like, they don't come back for days at a time. And that's a terrifying thing for a parent. Now imagine if he was off in a far country and you don't have phones, you don't have a cell phone, you can't track him on your iPhone. This, this father is, so, he probably had counted his son as dead right there. There probably wasn't another conclusion to make that when he disappears like that, this is a, this is a real return and a real resurrection in a sense, in this parable that we, we should not overlook, right? I think we think about the, the phrasing at the end there that your brother was lost and now he's fine. He was, he was dead and now he's alive. We think of that as like poetic or metaphorical or, or, or some sort of like hyperbolic statement. But in a very real sense in this instance, this son really did come back to life for this family and he was brought back to life and restored back to life by the grace of the father in in restoring him to this place of sonship. [00:57:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. That initial interaction, that requesting, that demanding is like a severing of the relationship. Yeah. It's basically saying, I wish to go away and to disconnect with you completely as if you were dead and I was a different person.  [00:58:00] Concluding Thoughts and Reflections [00:58:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so I think a great place to end, like you said, is let's be reminded that God's mercy is not reluctant, like God's mercy comes in hot. The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness. Praise God that his mercies are new every day. And here there are mercies for this son Yeah. By the way, before we end, I have to ask Tony, what flavor is the double imputation pie? Is that like a, is it a fruit pie or is that like a more of a cold, like custard based pie?  [00:58:42] Tony Arsenal: Well, you know, we do have a precedent on this podcast of talking about Exactly. Salvation.  [00:58:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:58:46] Tony Arsenal: Being the pie or the cake, right? So the cake is salvation. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's sweet and delicious. Maybe it's like a meat pie. Maybe it's like a good, like minced meat pie with all the, like, are you  [00:58:57] Jesse Schwamb: going  [00:58:57] Tony Arsenal: savory? Good protein? Yeah. Maybe it's a savory pie. Okay. I don't know.  [00:59:00] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.  [00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: I've never had a savory pie.  [00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I like, I, you know how you say that? I haven't either, but I would love like, what's it like steak and kidney? Isn't that like a famous.  [00:59:09] Tony Arsenal: That sounds awful.  [00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Well, isn't that like a, listen, do we have any brothers, sisters who are listening in in any of like the, yeah, the United Kingdom. Where are you guys at? Yeah, Daniel is a steak and kidney. Daniel, you  [00:59:19] Tony Arsenal: tell us. Daniel Steak and kidney a real thing.  [00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we need to know.  [00:59:24] Tony Arsenal: Okay.  [00:59:24] Jesse Schwamb: Is it good? Is it delicious? Would you describe it as a pie of double imputation again, steak, kidney? I'm thinking,  [00:59:34] Tony Arsenal: I don't even  [00:59:34] Jesse Schwamb: know. Tony's not, not convinced. So look at his face is like, we need to end this episode right  [00:59:39] Tony Arsenal: now. Yeah. Well, Jesse, I know how to end the episode. It's funny, it's funny. People, I'm glad people picked up on the little joke from last week, although it wasn't really a joke.  [00:59:49] Jesse Schwamb: No.  [00:59:50] Tony Arsenal: And I still have this recurring nightmare than we're gonna forget how to end the podcast. But last week we were trying a, a slightly different recording setup. [00:59:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:59:57] Tony Arsenal: And somehow, maybe this is our AI overlords playing some sort of joke on us. Somehow, right after talking about how we were gonna blow the ending, the system magically muted Jesse's microphone. I could see his hands. They were nowhere near the keyboard. There's no possible way  [01:00:13] Jesse Schwamb: in the air.  [01:00:14] Tony Arsenal: Just absolutely. The, the, the phone was like, or the recording software was like, not today boys. So we're on a different platform this time. Hopefully it won't do it.  [01:00:25] Jesse Schwamb: We're about to find out.  [01:00:27] Tony Arsenal: We will. When I say until next time, Jesse Honor. Everyone  [01:00:33] Jesse Schwamb: just kidding. Everybody  [01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: love the brotherhood. 

What if the most famous parable in Scripture isn't primarily about the prodigal son at all? In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin an in-depth exploration of Luke 15:11-32, arguing that this beloved parable is fundamentally about the Father's lavish, shocking grace rather than the son's waywardness. The hosts unpack how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's character as one who not only forgives repentant sinners but elevates them to the status of beloved children and heirs—a grace so radical it scandalizes our human sensibilities. They also examine the often-overlooked older brother as a picture of "gospel complainers" who struggle to rejoice in God's mercy. This episode sets the foundation for a multi-part series that promises to reveal new depths in one of the Bible's most profound stories. Key Takeaways The parable's central focus is the Father, not the sons. While commonly called "The Parable of the Prodigal Son," the story's main point is to reveal the gracious, generous character of God who eagerly forgives and restores sinners. God's salvation elevates us beyond mere forgiveness. The returning son isn't simply pardoned—he's clothed in the best robe, given a ring, and celebrated with a feast. Similarly, salvation doesn't just remove our guilt; it grants us adoption as God's children and heirs. The parable addresses both repentant sinners and "gospel complainers." The younger son represents those who have come to themselves and returned to the Father, while the older brother represents those who resent God's grace toward the undeserving. Christian salvation is unique among world religions. Unlike other religious systems that offer moral improvement or merger with the divine, Christianity offers actual adoption into God's family—a relationship of love and inheritance. The scandal of grace should shock us. The father's response to the returning son is deliberately shocking and countercultural, revealing a love so lavish it transcends human logic and fairness. Repentance involves recognizing the Father's gracious disposition. The son "came to himself" not merely by acknowledging his foolishness, but by remembering his father's character and trusting in his mercy. This parable contains multiple theological lessons. Rather than having a single point, this rich story teaches us about God's nature, the process of repentance, the reality of regeneration, the joy of restoration, and the danger of self-righteousness. Key Concepts The Father as the True Center of the Parable Throughout church history, interpreters have often focused on the journey of the younger son—his rebellion, his descent into poverty, his moment of realization, and his return home. However, Tony and Jesse argue compellingly that this emphasis misses the parable's primary purpose. Jesus tells this story in response to the Pharisees' complaint that he welcomes sinners and eats with them. The parable's answer isn't primarily about how sinners should behave, but about who God is—a Father who runs to meet returning sinners, who interrupts their prepared speeches of repentance with immediate restoration, who celebrates extravagantly rather than reluctantly. Every detail—the best robe, the ring, the fatted calf, the music and dancing—points to a God whose grace overflows beyond what we could ask or imagine. When we shift our focus from the son's unworthiness to the Father's overwhelming generosity, the gospel comes into sharper focus. Salvation as Elevation, Not Mere Restoration One of the most striking insights in this episode is the observation that the younger son returns expecting at best to be treated as a hired servant, but instead receives treatment that appears to elevate him even beyond his original status as a son. The father doesn't simply restore him to his previous position; he clothes him in the best robe, places a ring on his finger (a symbol of authority), puts shoes on his feet (distinguishing him from barefoot servants), and throws a celebration with the fatted calf (reserved for the most special occasions). This, Tony and Jesse argue, is a picture of what God's salvation accomplishes. We don't simply receive forgiveness that neutralizes our debt; we receive adoption that makes us heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. First John 1:9 doesn't merely promise forgiveness of sins, but cleansing from all unrighteousness—the removal of our guilt and the imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is the scandal of the gospel: God doesn't merely pardon rebels; he makes them sons and daughters. The Older Brother and the Danger of Gospel Complaining The parable's second half introduces the older brother, whose response to his father's grace reveals a different kind of lostness. His complaint seems, on the surface, entirely reasonable: he has been faithful and obedient, yet never received such celebration, while his wasteful brother returns and is honored. Yet his anger reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of grace. He sees his relationship with the father in transactional terms—work deserves reward, and his brother's work deserves punishment. He cannot rejoice in mercy shown to another because he doesn't recognize his own need for mercy. The hosts connect this to the Pharisees who complained about Jesus welcoming sinners, and to the persistent temptation among believers to resent God's grace toward those we deem less deserving. The older brother's position outside the celebration—in the "outer darkness" of the parable—serves as a sobering warning about the possibility of being near to the Father's house while remaining far from the Father's heart. Memorable Quotes This parable has something to tell us about the nature of the Father, the nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, to forgive his son. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. — Tony Arsenal No human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel... You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think. — Jesse Schwamb He could have redeemed us from destruction and brought us out of that, but he's chosen not only to redeem us from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his heirs, as his inheritors. — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 476. Of the Reformed Brotherhood, I'm Jesse. [00:00:55] Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that Tony is actually on. Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. [00:01:03] Tony Arsenal: lives, I'm alive. Yes. It's, [00:01:07] Jesse Schwamb: As, as I said, the rumors of your demise were greatly exaggerated and here you are. [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: just barely. Yeah. I mean, the words your brother who was once lost has now been found, have double meaning on this episode. [00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. You're leading us right into this topic, which we've teased and teased and teased to extreme lengths, but finally, brothers and sisters, I think today on this episode we're gonna talk a little bit about the Parable of the Lost Son. After all of that, I think it was good buildup, but it's time. [00:01:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's worth the buildup. This is one of the, uh, one of the like, big daddy parables. I mean, all the parables are profitable and useful, of course. But, uh, as far as like the, the, the major parables, this is, I don't know if this is probably the most major parable or the, it's certainly the most famous. It's right up there with the Good Samaritan. So I'm, I'm stoked. I've been like wrestling and chewing on this parable for like a month now. [00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: I know. How about it? We're finally here. There's so much to talk about. I don't wanna bury the lead. We're gonna get there. It, there's just. There's so much ex escalation, like so much evolution, evolution, evolution and escalation of this idea of like, it's three parables in one and really it's one parable in three parts, and we're, you're going from the sheep to the coin to a person now, and then there's this like, you can complain about the gospel. All that's happening within this, I mean, there's, we could just do a, a podcast or an episode of the podcast. You could do a whole podcast just on the setup, but we're not gonna do that.  [00:02:43] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Well, we'll probably do part of that, but the other thing I'm sure that people have missed are affirmations, denials. And they're back. It's 2026. We've got 'em. You want 'em? So as I've been want to do, Tony, my brother, are you affirming with, are you denying against. [00:02:58] Book Review: Strength of the Few [00:02:58] Tony Arsenal: I am going to affirm this is a very recent popcorn, coconut oil affirmation. Uh, both of us have been reading, um, James Linton's newest entry in the hierarchy [00:03:10] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's right. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: and both of us have now finished it. And I do have to [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yep. [00:03:14] Tony Arsenal: um. The book was better than I thought it was gonna be, and I had pretty high expectations going into it. so if you haven't had a chance to check out the hierarchy, I know it, I think it's either gonna be a trilogy or a Quad trilogy. I've read that there's a plan for three books, maybe four books. Um, if you haven't checked it out despite our several recommendations, please do. It was. It was amazing book and kept you confused in all the right ways until, until suddenly you weren't so confused, which was like a really, it was like the opposite feeling as the first book, which was you thought you knew what was going on the entire time, and then all of a sudden it was just a totally different situation. This I. I kind of felt like I sort of understood what was going on. And then in maybe like the last, I don't know, five pages, everything got upended again. Um, so yeah, it, it was very good. Uh, it's eminently appropriate. Um, there's no sex. There's. Sort of veiled swearing, but it's, it's sort of like fantasy world. Different words, swearing. Um, it can be a little bit, um, violent at some points, but he does a good job of not making it overly graphic. Um, and there are some graphic things that happen, but he does a good job of not describing them overly graphically. So, um, I don't know that I would like read it to your kids at bedtime, but it's a. It's a good book and it's worth, it's, it's a little bit of a slog. I mean, it was a long book, but it's worth the [00:04:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:04:46] Tony Arsenal: you put into it. Um, I don't know when the next book's gonna come out. Probably a year and a half, maybe two years. Um, seems to be the pace. So you got time to go back and read Will of the Mini, which is the first one, uh, strength of the Few, which is the second one. And the forthcoming volume I've heard is called the Justice of One. I don't [00:05:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:05:04] Tony Arsenal: if there's a fourth volume, what it's gonna be called. Um, but yeah, check it out. It was super good. It was super, super satisfying. Um, it was shocking in all the right ways. Surprising in all the right ways, but also sort of predictable in some of the right ways. There were some things that happened that. Felt right, and like they're expected and they should have happened, and then they did happen. Um, I I, I get really frustrated with books when you really feel like it's supposed to go some way and then it just doesn't, like something fits and it doesn't happen. So yeah. Strength of the Few by James Islington. I'm gonna try to pick up his other trilogy, I think it's called the Lactus Trilogy, um, just to get a feel for it. And I've heard rumors that, uh, James Islington is actually a reformed Christian, so we are gonna try to hunt him down if anyone happens to have contact information for James is LinkedIn please. Uh, please send it my way 'cause I would love to book him for the show and see if we could get him, uh, get him visiting. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: We got 20, 26 goals. We got those squad goals. Actually, what's a really good way for people to get you? Let's say somebody has the contact information, they're listening and they're saying, we. I do with this hot little ticket that's in my hands. How could they get that information to us in a really fun way? [00:06:17] Engaging with the Audience [00:06:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we have a Telegram channel. Telegram is just this little messaging app. Uh, you just go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood. Uh, you can use it on any browser or any mobile device. You can access Telegram. If you go to your browser and point it to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, it will take you either to download the app or if you already have the app, it'll jump you straight into the, uh, into the conversation. Uh, there's several different channels or a little. Categories in there. Um, you know, anything from memes to, um, like a book reading club to prayer requests, um, there's a lot going on in there and it really is just a friendly place. There's about a hundred people in there, so it's not gonna blow up your phone all the time. Um, but if you have a question or you want to chat things or you happen to have James Linton's email address and you wanna share it with me, that is the place to do it. t.me/reform brotherhood. [00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: This is a great book. Like you said, the storytelling is epic's. Super fun. It keeps you guessing. In fact, you almost can't even guess at certain points. You've just gotta come along for the ride. And one of the things I also appreciate about James Islington is he's pretty responsive. So he has a website and he posts regular updates. So I'm looking at an update that was dated December 2nd. He talks about the justice of one. He says he's got it up to 150,000 words in draft form, but he also is saying that he's going to release like a shorter sci-fi novel this year. So that man is just cranking books. [00:07:40] Tony Arsenal: He [00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: He's just out there crushing it. [00:07:43] Tony Arsenal: of [00:07:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's, you just stole that. That's exactly what I was gonna say. He's the Sin Sinclair Ferguson of fantasy authorship. So he's doing his thing. But I love that he keeps touch kind of with his readership and he provides these little tidbits to just say like, I'm out here and I'm work. 'cause isn't there you, you and I have talked about this before. There's almost nothing less satisfying than a really good series that you either start reading or you think is gonna be complete and at some point like it drops off and you have no idea what happened to the author. It's, it's hard. I mean, it's a small thing in the world of course, but there's nothing more satisfying than knowing that you're gonna get this whole series. And I kind of like the breaks in between 'cause it allows you to kind of track and digest. And I've already like looked up videos. Maybe you've done the same thing, reading all this stuff about people's theories about what's going on. 'cause it's that good that like you wanna get. Other people together and talk about, it's that kind of book. [00:08:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and Jesse and I have swapped theories about what's going to happen. I think we more or less independently came up with basically [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:08:44] Tony Arsenal: theory. Um, [00:08:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:08:46] Tony Arsenal: sure some of the nuances are different, but I would love it if, if, uh, someone in our telegram chat or other people have read, read this book. To hear what your thoughts are about what's gonna happen in the next book and what the kind of the next resolutions. I can't even, like, there's no way I can even tilt my hand about what my theory might be without spoiling like all of the best surprises in the whole book. So I think that's enough. Uh, fanboying over strength of the few. For now, for now. Um, but do check it out. Strength of the few. James Islington. Um, I got it on Kindle. It was, it was easy enough to read on a eReader. Sometimes books aren't formatted well for eBooks. This, the formatting's good. The, the pacing is good. Um, just check it out. You, you won't be sorry. Probably if, if you like science fiction, fantasy kind of books, you won't be sorry that you invested the time in this. [00:09:39] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed. Yeah. Good. That is a good strong starting affirmation. [00:09:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight? [00:09:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna do an affirmation as well, and I'm just gonna fan boy with two authors and I'm coming in 'cause you, you actually asked me about this for some opinion on it and I'm willing to give some, even though it's too early in the year, I suppose, but I. I have really grown to appreciate some really good quote unquote devotional reads. You know, something that gives you a little bit to process and digest every day. And I was gifted walking in Faith 365 days with John Calvin, which is edited by Joel Beaky. So you got a powerhouse there, and it turns out. Not shockingly, it's good and I'm just loving, again, the ability to have like snippets of really good writing that don't overwhelm you in the volume so you can really slow down and chew on them a bit. And additionally, one of the things I really like about this particular volume is that it's in. Technical order, so it moves you through the scriptures as if like you were perhaps just reading through one book of the Bible and it's taking these like little pieces and snippets along the way. So of course it's in Genesis, we're early in the year as you and I are talking, and so it's just moving you through. I'm just at Jacob and Esau and just drawing out some really lovely distinctions, some theological truths from a little piece of scripture, some commentary on that. Then some kind of additional Bible reading paired along with that for you to take in the process as well. It's just. Good, Joe Bke is great. I mean, what can we say about Calvin? [00:11:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So it's really a lovely pairing and he is curated it very nicely. And again, I love that it's kind of moving through the scriptures in a way that's familiar to us, just in terms of the order of the scriptures themselves, at least that they've been ordered for us. So if you're looking for something, it's not too late. I mean, I suppose you could just pick this up and do it whenever you wanted, but still early in the year. So I don't know. Wherever books are sold, I'm sure you can find it. Walking in faith. 3, 6, 5 days with John Calvin, who doesn't wanna spend that much time with John Calvin. Everybody does. So go well. Most everybody does. Go. Go and check it out. [00:11:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that curation aspect is really important because anyone, I mean, and people should and do this and it's fine and, and edifying, like you can, you can pick up a like year through the institute's like [00:11:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:11:53] Tony Arsenal: plan. Um, but some of the institute's, like, it's just not, not theologically bad, but it's just not good writing. Like there are parts of the institutes that are just really. Dull and dry and hard to get through. So a good book like this that's gonna curate and I'm assuming if he's going through the scriptures, they're pulling from his commentaries and other works. Do, um. [00:12:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:12:16] Tony Arsenal: It's important because even the best writers have bad parts of their writing, either because the writing is bad or because sometimes the material they're covering is dry and something like a biblical commentary, like you're gonna cover the genealogies. And that's probably not the most compelling commentary to read is what John Calvin thinks about the, the. You know, six chapters at the beginning of First Kings or, uh, first Chronicles, although I don't think he did a [00:12:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:12:45] Tony Arsenal: on First Chronicles, but. The point stands that having someone who is knowledgeable and has s slugged their way through all of that to curate and to arrange it and to give it thematic cohesion, uh, is really helpful. I would love to see more books like that. Like, like, let's Beaky, can you do one for like a brothel and. And Bob Inc. Can you [00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a good idea. [00:13:08] Tony Arsenal: go through all of the major reformed, uh, writers and create this resource for us? Please, if you have Joel Bey's email also go to the telegram chat and, uh, and let us know. Uh, it's probably not unrealistic that someone in our Telegram chat actually does have Joel Bey's email. Um, and I would be willing to bet that you could probably just find Joel Bee's email on like the Pure Term Reform Seminary website. He's probably not too hard to get hold of. [00:13:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, but that's, that's not the one we're talking about. We, we want the burn it to the ground email. We want the Yahoo or the a OL address. We want that personal one. [00:13:44] Tony Arsenal: it's like j Bke Puritan [email protected]. [00:13:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's the one we want. We. Listen, Dr. Pki, we know that you have that email. Just just, just give it to us. Just give it to us. Join our Telegram group. It'll be amazing. And then just give it to us and then you can come and you can talk to us and we will give you all these amazing ideas like you've just done for free. I like that. Think about like if there was like a volume set of these and then you could just have them at your disposal. You might like take one year and go through broccoli. You might go through Calvin. How awesome would that be? Like you just cycle through them just in perpetuity, alongside like your general reading or study of the scriptures. I, I love it because it's like a, it's like a theological, oh, this could be a horrible comparison, but it's kinda like a theological dessert. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not saying it's, it's full of empty calories. I'm saying it's a rich, it's delicious. It's a great like night cap of your worship, as it were. And. It is the best to have somebody who's gone through it and said, Hey, here's something really worthwhile that you should hear from Calvin every day on a particular part of the scriptures. And that's just how it, it's like it's the greatest hits, so you're just getting them. It's like they just, they're bangers. They don't stop. They just keep hitting you hard every day. So I love your idea of like, can we just get more of that from everybody [00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, I have a feeling we're gonna need all the time we can get for this [00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: the time? [00:15:08] Tony Arsenal: So rather than trying to segue our in our way into some clever transition, why don't [00:15:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:14] Tony Arsenal: why don't we just get at it? [00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: We, we should get a, and I have a feeling that maybe some of the brothers sisters said that we're gonna need some of the time, but what you actually said was, we need all the time. And that is factually correct. [00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: the times. Yeah, we're gonna [00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:15:28] Tony Arsenal: episodes for this one. I think I'll call it now. [00:15:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's, that is absolutely true. So there is a choice ahead of us though. And that is, and I, this is where I'm at. I dunno where you're at. We're having the meeting as we actually record the conversation.  [00:15:41] Reading the Parable of the Lost Son [00:15:41] Jesse Schwamb: I'm thinking, why don't we just read this whole thing to start with, just to set it up. We're certainly not gonna get through everything and I think even, we probably have some things we'd like to say in this set up itself. But, uh, what, say you, let's just read the whole thing. [00:15:53] Tony Arsenal: do it. Do you want me to read? [00:15:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, go ahead. [00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: I'm reading from the ESV and I'm reading out of Luke chapter 15, starting in verse 11. And he said he being Jesus. He said there was a man who had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of property that is coming to me. He divided his property between them. Not many days later, the young son gathered all he had took a journey into the far country and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything severe famine arose in the country and he began to be in need. he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country who sent him into the field to feed his pigs. And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger. I will arise and go to my father. And I'll say to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and earth before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. And he arose and came to his father, but while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his servants, bring quickly the best robe and put it on him and bring a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet, and bring the fatted calf and kill it and let us eat and celebrate for this. My son was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found, and they began to celebrate. Now, his older son was in the field and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, your brother has come and your father has killed the fatted calf because he received him back safe and sound. But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and and treated him, but he answered his father. Look, these many years I've served you, I've never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fatted calf for him. And he said to him, son, you are always with me, and all that is mine. Is yours. Was fitting to celebrate and be glad for this. Your brother was dead and is alive. He was lost and is found. [00:18:25] Discussion on the Parable's Themes [00:18:25] Jesse Schwamb: So glad those dulce tones are back. It's so easy to really get caught up in this. I mean, just listening to you give it to us, deliver it to us. It's so easy to, to get embedded in this story and to feel something about what's going, especially the end. I was just really struck by that older brother saying very directly like, you know, listen, you didn't gimme anything and this fool over here squatted everything with prostitutes, and now you've come back and you've welcomed him and celebrated him. I mean, there, there's so much here. That is the beauty of this like three in one parable format, isn't it? We get the first two, which I think are really, like we talked about, designed to impress us upon us with this love of God. It's an activity which seeks out the sinner, which takes like infinite trouble in order to find him, rescue him. And then there's this joy that's shown by God and all the host of heaven when even just the one is saved. And we've said again that we gotta remember the setup here. All that message is coming against this great accusation, which of course the Pharisees mean to be pejorative. But what is a true flection of our savior, of his loving and kindness that he welcomes? He makes himself approachable by the least in society. The ones who had rejected religion once, for which like religion was not gonna do anything anymore. They're outside of it. That was for good men, and these were decidedly not good men. And so then there's this. Like I said before, I guess what was the word I used? Evolution, which I think is like an elaboration and an elevation of this whole storyline. And now we're going from sheep and coins to this idea that God is stressing his activity alone, that he goes in this, there's this reaction condition of the sinner. And so the parable, I think here, at least to my mind, and I wanna hear what you have to say even as we start, which is that impresses upon us again, this aspect of this other like side matter. Nobody should be so foolish to think that we should be automatically saved by God's love, even as the sheep and the last coin were found. And so the great outstanding point is still the same, but it's application. It seems to me, even, again, just hearing you say this to us is made more direct and more personal, and so we really need to get well, what is that additional direct and personal message? What, what is the thing that we need to look at here and understand that connects us to the other two parts, being peace wise. Of this whole formulaic approach to salvation from God's view, but also is much more different and much more direct. [00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the sort of like intensification of these parables, know, maybe not, it's not like a progressive intensification, but we go from, we go from kind of like a herd animal that's wandered away. Has somewhat of an agency, but like does nothing to bring itself back. We go from that to a coin, which is totally inanimate and it is [00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right? [00:21:11] Tony Arsenal: and, and now we have this like fully orbed, fully fleshed out picture of salvation that fills in some of the gaps, right? I think if you just had the first two parables and you were using those, it gives this impression that we are entirely. Inert, I won't say passive. 'cause we are passive in our justification. We receive justification from external to us, and we don't contribute anything to the effecting of our justification. But we're not inert even in our justification. We're not inert, we're not just sitting there. Um, we, we respond in faith to God's regeneration and calling and justification comes to us through that faith. So this parable really does. Give us a bigger picture because it's not as though the son is dead in a ditch somewhere and the father comes and finds him like the son does and come back. So it's, it's now not just a picture of. The redemption that God, you know, brings to his people and the redemption that Christ purchases, that the Holy Spirit applies to his people. It's also now a picture of what repentance looks like, and it's a picture of what recalcitrant looks like. It's a picture of what it looks like to refuse to trust the grace of God and to rejoice in the grace of God. We have a, all of those pictures are all there and it, it really is a. A pretty complex, it's a complex flavor profile. I, I feel like maybe it's because distilling theology's back and I was listening to it the other day, but it, it, it really is this complex picture of really a lot of elements of soteriology that I don't know that I picked up on, you know, in my casual study of this parable and, you know, and up until now, really kind of deep diving it. [00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm with, I'm with you, and there's like a lovely kind of book ending here, or there's maybe like a huge punchline. That's a better way to say it because even as we start at the beginning, of course, with. Two sons, which is a wonderful way to begin this. I mean, that's just like pregnant and poignant with so much meaning. So much like anticipation, because what's gonna happen, what are the two sons they seem to be, even from the beginning at odds or even as you're thinking of the younger you have in your mind. Well, I was told there was two, so they must come into play. They. I love that because there is this enjoin or this kind of attack where the Pharisees are kind of even made to be like the elder brother and 'cause they're not joining in in heaven's joy. And the punchline comes later and of course it's still in response. The very last thing is still in response to the fact that you can say something totally true about Jesus Amina as an accusation and they're gospel complainers and the Bible's actually full of gospel complainers. I sometimes worry and, and as we were. Setting up to talk about this. I was thinking what are the ways that like the modern ways, even the reform circles that we have or complain about grace and. I always think of Jonah and think, I would never be Jonah, but of course, like you get to the end of Jonah's legacy really. And the way that we know him at the end is he's just angry because of God's mercy. And it's almost laughable because at the end of Jonah four, when Jonah's sitting out looking on Nineveh and there's been this grand repentance, and then, you know. Yahweh essentially says to him, do you have a good reason to be angry? And he's like, yes, because I knew you'd be merciful. And then God instill his mercy to Jonah in particular, of course, in the heat of the day, gives a plant to grow beside him and give him shade. And then God brings in his. True providence and control over all things, a scorching east wind and it strikes down that plant. And then Jonah loses his shade and he's angry again. And this is why I chuckle, 'cause it's almost laughable. God says to Jonah, listen, do you have a good reason? He says the same question, do you have a good reason to be angry about the plant? And of course Jonah's response is, yeah, I'm angry enough to die. And it's just like, isn't that our proclivity? And so like even all of this story is to. Challenge the idea that the gospel, I think if we're, if we're honest with ourselves, is sometimes gonna come cause us to complain about this incredible grace, this amazing grace. That's what makes it so amazing. So the whole star story from start to finish puts us in both of the characters, doesn't it? I mean, I know that's a very common interpretation, but it's probably worth, I think, not forgetting that to the, from the beginning, from the end here. That the punchline is that. The Pharisees are being accused to be the elder brothers and we along with them at times, but that it's easy to complain about the gospel, even if you're totally down with, we're presumably gonna get to all the other parables about the workers, for instance, and their pay and all that good stuff. But we're gonna see this theme over and over and over again that the gospel truly is radical. I think for me, the way it summarized the whole thing is that we're seeing like the recklessly spend, thrift love of God. I think I've said before in our conversations elsewhere that like there's so much in here that's not. Not like good earthly human advice. This is probably not good, like in total, like parenting advice, for instance, in every situation it, it is showing though the incredible breadth and scope of God's love. And still, like you said, Tony, I like this. We should go onto this, this elaboration of this point where. I think for many people like myself, one of my favorite parts in this is, and he came to himself, but that coming to himself isn't, he came to himself by himself, but that he came to himself under the realization of the father, that he ought to go back and to humble himself before him. And you're right. There is this confluence of those two things. Maybe it's Erie is a better word in which they're coming together in harmony. They're not opposed to one another. We're not saying that he somehow earned himself the right and still, like he just got smart enough and therefore said, if I just go back to the father and I plead mercy, that maybe I'll have some opportunity to come back into the household. You know, still is all God's work, but we're seeing the work of God in the sinner in this place, in the thing that was lost, which we don't see in the other two parables or the other two parts that proceeded. [00:27:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, this is one of those parables too, where. If you look at a parable and say, it can only have one point, which I know is, is a common interpretive lens that a lot of people look through parables, look at parables through.  [00:27:36] Understanding the Parable's Multiple Messages [00:27:38] Tony Arsenal: Um, if you look at this and say, well, it can only have one point that I think you're really selling yourself short. 'cause this, this parable has something to tell us about. The nature of the Father, right? The nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, right, to forgive his son. it tells us about us. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. Um, even, even. In the sons, the, the lost sons or the the prodigal sons, even in his, So maybe we should, we should just talk through it a little bit.  [00:28:23] The Son's Return and Father's Grace [00:28:28] Tony Arsenal: The son turns, when he comes to himself, he doesn't think he's gonna go back and become a son again. Right. He doesn't, he doesn't think he's going to achieve full forgiveness and restoration, but even his minimalistic understanding of what his father. Could, and, and I think it's reasonable to say like, likely will, he's going home because he anticipates that it will be successful, right? It's a, it's a [00:28:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:28:54] Tony Arsenal: effort, but he's not, he's not thinking he's gonna get like thrown out again. He's thinking that when he goes home and he pleads with his father to become a higher, become a hired servant in his house, that the father's going to accept that proposition. So even in that. That still would be a gracious response.  [00:29:14] Cultural Context and Commentary Insights [00:29:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, I've read lots of commentaries on this over the years, and most of them make the point that the disrespect. Shown to the father by this son, um, would've been a justification for stoning under the mosaic economy. so he, he, uh, is going back to someone who has the right to. Take his life, and he's anticipating that he won't. Right? So even that is a recognition of the graciousness of this father. And then he gets there and the graciousness of the father overflows beyond his wildest imaginations, right? He comes back and, and. I have to think, especially since the other son isn't like, oh yeah, we wear the best robes and the best rings and we have feasts all the time. This is not normal. It's not like this is just restoration. Back to the original state of sun sonship, he's now elevated in his sonship. He comes back and he's wearing the best robe. He's given the best ring. He has shoes on his feet. He is, there's a party. The fatted calf is being killed. He's, he's advanced to a higher level of celebration and fellowship than he was. [00:30:24] The Parable's Broader Theological Implications [00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So this parable has so many different facets to it that tell us about ourselves, tells us about our salvation, tells us about God, tells us about the reprobates, which is. We talked about this in some of the other parables, like there's a judgment element to this. The son who refuses to celebrate the the lost coming home remains in the outer darkness. He sits outside the party. He doesn't enjoy the fellowship of everyone who's, who's. over the restoration of this one. He is in the outer darkness. He is in where the goats are, where, you know, he's, he's out away from the fellowship of God's people in the parable. So, we'll, we'll unpack all of this in more depth as we work our way through the, you know, we'll work way, our way through the parable itself. But there is so much here to unpack it just really is such a rich, beautiful tapestry of. Of theological insight and wisdom, and Jesus is just this master storyteller, right? This is [00:31:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:31:27] Tony Arsenal: that he's, he's come up with that weaves all of these themes in. Of course, I mean, of course he's a master storyteller. He's God, but as even as a [00:31:35] Jesse Schwamb: Right, [00:31:35] Tony Arsenal: he's, he's able to weave all these themes together in a way that is surprising, but also not really surprising. Like this [00:31:44] Jesse Schwamb: right, [00:31:45] Tony Arsenal: the way you would want this story to unfold. Like it's a comfortable, um. It's not shocking in the wrong way. Like, you don't look at it, you're not being surprised by, it's not like a, there's no twist to this. If anything, the twist is that the older brother is kind of a bonehead. Right?  [00:32:04] The Scandalous Nature of God's Love [00:32:05] Tony Arsenal: So, so I'm, I'm just really thankful that this is in the Bible. It's such a beautiful thing and it is so well known, even outside of Christian circles. People understand and know this story. It can be a really good touch point for the gospel. 'cause when you talk about the prodigal son. clicks for people. They may not know [00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm. [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: but they're familiar with that language. They know it's something from the Bible and you can use it to really explain the grace of God, the restoration of sinners. So I'm stoked to keep going on this one, [00:32:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and that's why we need multiple conversations because I think that we're trying to start it in the right spot, which we, we gotta talk about the big things first. Like we, we, we, I know we wanna run and go and talk about all the details and people are probably like. Talk about the, like you said, the covenant between father and son and talk. We'll get there, I promise. But I think we need to sit for a second and just think about the, just the grand arc. This, this whole, the whole of what's being communicated here is tremendous and it is captivating and you're rights like God has in his per nation made this to be the kind of thing that, uh. Like, I like what you said, it captivates us in a weird way. It's not like storytelling to which we are drawn because we could conceive of it, but because it's so inconceivable and yet in that ability to like not fully comprehend the depth of this, it's the kind of forgiveness and restoration that we all sense we needed want. [00:33:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: And of course we're still, you and I are still talking at the beginning of the year here, and one of the. Like, I think incredible themes that jumps out to me on this is truly like the possibility of a new start, a real new beginning for all. Even those who are most desperate, there's no case can be worse than this prodigal son. Yet even he gets to start again. And like you've just said, and I think this is a critical point, he's not starting from a place of. Restored weakness or some kind of subcategory in the hierarchy of the family. He's actually been elevated back up and there's like a true resurrection or restoration here. One might, one might even say like he's had a glorious fall because it's been restored to such a degree where he knows the father's love in a truly profound, in really intimate kind of way that he would not have experienced if he had stayed in the father's household. And so even I think at the beginning with this, him coming forward and asking for the inheritance. Maybe we're getting a little bit of that flavor of Romans one that God turning over that he's working and seeking out that which is idolatrous. He thinks that is the kind of thing that will either satisfy or fulfill him. He quickly finds it to be knots, that kind of thing. And then he touches bottom. I mean, he goes all the way down so low that I'm not sure he could possibly descend any further, and we'll get to these details. Of course, in his culture and his family in this foreign country, he's with husks and pigs. He's Penns friendless. He's hopeless. He's for alone. He's totally desolate and dejected, but even he gets a fresh start even he is called to make a new beginning, and the father, like you said, runs to him in that new beginning. [00:34:59] The Transformative Power of God's Love [00:34:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's the blessed gospel. Loved ones like that's the blessed hope. That's, that's the new thing that we're always longing for, that we find if we could just have that kind of restoration, especially when we fall, which we will continue to fall, we'll continue to sin. What a difference the coming of Jesus makes. And all of that. It says Jesus saying himself again, like he is the messenger and he's the message. And he's saying, here I am. I, uh, here I am declaring freedom for the captives, like true restoration, true rehabilitation, true regeneration. And all of that's happening in the context of this story. And I'm with you. Like, I don't wanna move too quickly into the details, which are cool and fun and support all of that without us kind of trying to process what that even means. [00:35:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and this is a big one, so buckle up everyone like this is gonna be obviously. We're 30, 30 ish minutes in 30, almost 40 minutes into this episode. Uh, we haven't even, we haven't even started working our way through the text directly. [00:35:57] Jesse Schwamb: True. [00:35:58] Tony Arsenal: gonna be here for at least a couple weeks. So make sure you pick up a good commentary, make sure you pick up some good resources, read through this, really, really like, meditate on it and marinate on it. And I think, you know, this parable has so much to teach us. It really is worth devoting the time to it. 'cause you know, I was thinking about it the other day. It's funny because like the older brother, almost like his annoyance actually makes sense to me. Not, not in the like gospel complainer sense that I think is like the point of the parable, but just on the surface of it, like he's not being unreasonable and, [00:36:35] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. [00:36:36] Tony Arsenal: tell us something. Not only about our own dispositions, but that is not the, um. not the shocking part of the story, right? The shocking part of the story is that the father is gracious abundantly, above and beyond, not only to the younger son, but also to the older son. Gracious. He's gracious to the servants. I mean, ev, everyone in this parable across the board is benefiting from the beneficence of. father in this parable, the servants, the sons, everyone is benefiting from him. And I, I think that is the part of the parable that we often miss. And this is one of my little bugaboos, like this is, this is my version of broken for you. Um, [00:37:23] Jesse Schwamb: Hit me [00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: we, we call this the parable of the prodigal son. [00:37:28] Jesse Schwamb: right. [00:37:29] Tony Arsenal: the parable is not about the sons, like they're there. And of course, as I said, like the parable has something to teach us about the figures that these sons represent. The, the, the, the theological truths that come to bear in the character and the. The story arcs of these sons as part of the parable. But the main focus of this parable, the main point is to teach us about the grace and the goodness and the generosity and the love of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Father and the Holy Spirit. And if we, if we start to shift our gaze in the parable, we, we get too bogged down in trying to parse out every little element of each.  [00:38:14] Salvation and Adoption as God's Children [00:38:15] Tony Arsenal: and the servants and what do the pods represent and who, what are the pigs and who are the foreign, where's the foreign land and what, what historically, what's with the, in like when we get there? All of those things are good and well, and, and we'll talk about most of those things I think over the coming weeks. But if we miss the point of the parable that this is about the gracious. Love and forgiveness that is ours in Christ and the nature of the God who extends that forgiveness to us and the way that that forgiveness is obtained and, and applied to us. Um, we, we lose a lot. We miss out on a lot. So that, I think that's why we're looping on it so much in this first episode here, is we have to nail what the parable broadly is about before we can invest time in the others, or we're gonna miss the point entirely. Okay. [00:38:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's right on it. This is like truly scandalous. I mean, again, Jesus is clearly addressing the fact that in some ways, like you're saying, I think you can see how the Pharisees have a right to complain, or at least they think they have a right to complain in the same way the older brother does. Like I've been here all along. I've done what you've asked for me, and you know, this fool over here again, went and just squandered everything. But now he's come back and he's celebrating him like he's the hero and. It's this idea, idea again that I, I, I guess it goes back to, I'm thinking of like one John, right? Where John says something like, behold, what manner of love the father has lavished on us, like these verbs. These just almost, it sounds like, I think in a normal conversation, I don't know. I dunno how often we're using the word lavish, but you probably are being hyperbolic, but that John is not there. He's not trying to emphasize like, well, I just can't get to how big God's love. It is big enough. I need you to really understand it. So I'm gonna go well above and beyond and use some kind of like really grandiose language here. But he says lavish. He's talking about this full magnitude of how God feels in his disposition towards us that is so scandalous and everywhere there's just scandal in the Bible, like at the top. Now I'm thinking this of this connection, just having read from John Calvin about Jacob and he saw and just how scandalous it is that God chooses Jacob, who's the deceiver, who's like just as a duplicitous life, who like for the sake can't get out of his own way actually. And here is God a blessing and saving and covenanting with him. And so when God looks upon a sinner to save him, he regards him as loss in the need of being found sovereignly and effectually. And he does this out of his. His own goodwill and by his own prerogative. Not of course, because there's anything in that man that warrants or deserves that salvation. And here you're just seeing that over and over again. It's you. I can understand if you're part of a family and you have siblings as a brother getting upset at that kind of situation, it would be natural, wouldn't it? To be like, are you kidding me right now? And so I think that's why the father of the parable says that my son was. Dead. I mean, he was gone. He was lost. Completely helpless. And by nature, that's exactly where we are. Of course, we're dead. We're cut off from the source of life, God himself. We're lost with respect to God and we're lost from the perspective of God. And all of that's that's happening here. And I think, I can't imagine. What it was like to sit in the telling of this and feel the tension of the parties involved in those who are listening, because I think there were a lot of feelings about what was going on and being said here. And mainly that was because I would sum it up as the, with the question, uh. Are you kidding me? Or how dare you? Like this is crazy what you're talking about, the kind of love you're saying the father has is crazy in the sense that there is no earthly logic where we would be bent towards saying that seems completely undeserved. And I think the point is, you're exactly right. And no matter where you look at it, you might try to point to your own life or someone else's, or look at the little idiosyncrasies. Idiosyncrasies of how we behave and think, well no, there should be some justice here. And that that's exactly right. Jesus has born on that justice being just and justifier through God himself. And in that way we get to have God's love lavishly spent on us. And when we think about how lavish that is, it should trip our minds. Like it should kind of short circuit all of our processing because it is not natural. It is truly supernatural. And that's why I'm with you. Like we really have to, I think, take some time to like go over that over and over and over again. It's like singing the chorus of some kind of psalm or piece of worship music where you probably need to sing it 7, 8, 15 times in that repetition before it really starts to sink in. And I'm not sure it's even sunk it to me. [00:42:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, [00:42:51] Jesse Schwamb: Half of the way, and that's why I'm, I'm just saying it over and over again. This is the incredible love of God toward us and it is completely scandalous. It should be shocking if we're not finding it shocking. We, we probably need to evaluate more. I know. I need to evaluate more because it should be more shocking to me. [00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: yeah, yeah. I think, um, I'm not a huge fan of. Theological hypothetical, like counterfactuals. And what I mean by that is we can sometimes, we can sometimes talk about like, well, what God could have done or, or whatever. I don't love [00:43:27] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:43:28] Tony Arsenal: of doing theology, but sometimes it's useful and I think, um. I think that we often forget that salvation, like theoretically could have been different.  [00:43:40] The Unique Nature of Christian Salvation [00:43:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, I could conceive of a situation where God saves his people from destruction, but doesn't, doesn't elevate them to the place of his [00:43:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:43:51] Tony Arsenal: his sons, [00:43:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:43:52] Tony Arsenal: um. didn't have to do that. So E, even beyond the fact that he didn't have to save anyone, he wasn't obligated to save or redeem or store anyone. He could have saved us. I mean, we talk about this in like he didn't have to make food taste good, right? He didn't have [00:44:08] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: sunsets beautiful. He did that for our benefit. He did that for our joy, and he delights in us taking joy in those things. The same sort of dynamic is true of salvation. He could have. He could have redeemed us from, and, and maybe this isn't the way to think about it, and I, I don't want to be too firm on this, but salvation could have been less amazing than it is, I think. Um, and we, we still would need to be infinitely, eternally grateful for it. But, but it could be less. Enjoyable. Less delightful, less delectable. Right? But it isn't, he's chosen not only to redeem us from, from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his, as his heirs, as his, as his inheritors, right? So. In the same sense that this son comes back and is not just welcomed back as a servant or restored to the position of the second son in some ways, and this is why the anger and sort of the anger might not even be the right word. The annoyed, the annoyedness of the son, the, the older son some ways. The younger son comes back and is actually elevated to the place of the firstborn son. [00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:45:29] Tony Arsenal: that is a picture of salvation that is so foreign to other religions, so foreign to any other religious system that has a concept of restoration and reconciliation with the divine. Um, that's not the way it works. They, you don't become, you don't become, um, the family of. Allah, right? You don't become somehow like united to the ta, like to the Tao. Like that's just not the way any of it works in any other religions, and even in some of the Christian sects, when you talk about Jehovah's Witness and Mormons, and one is Pentecostals, they don't have a fully formed understanding of what it means to come and become God's children. Right? As a Mormon, you don't become God's child, you become God. Right. It's not about being united in faith and love and harmony with, with the father, son, and the spirit. It's about elev being elevated to a place where you're in your own divinity now. So this, this parable really does serve to orient us and reorient us, correct our misunderstandings about what salvation is in a really simple, straightforward fashion that is both expected. I think when I think, and this is, this is maybe the last thing I'll say before we, we wrap it up, is when I think about the really good dads that I know, right? The really, really good dads and moms too, but just, we'll just keep this with dads. When I think about the really good dads, they're the ones that just pick up their kid when they fall or don't, don't, um. Accept the apology. Uh, along with the discipline. They're the ones that actually elevate and restore and they, they bring their children to. A higher level, right? We're talking horizontally, of course, but a higher level through that disobedience that all, all children do, right? They don't just discipline their child, but through the discipline that is required because of the disobedience, they actually advance their child, they advance their child to a new place of fellowship and of wholeness. That that is. Really quite remarkable. And that is what the father in this parable does. He, he, this isn't just like a parable about, I mean, I think, like you said earlier, like in some ways this is actually probably really bad parenting advice, right? If your bonehead kid comes and says, gimme my inheritance, like doing it is probably not the best choice, right? And, and then when he comes back like, just acting as though nothing happened, like, that's not good discipline, but that's [00:48:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right, [00:48:22] Tony Arsenal: the parable. Right. The [00:48:23] Jesse Schwamb: exactly. [00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: the character and the love of this father. So I'm excited to, to get into the specifics and the details as we go along. Um, I really think it's gonna be edifying and beneficial and, and I just love that we're in this long series where we're just over the scriptures together. [00:48:41] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. I think that, again, I'm drawn to one John in two ways thinking about what you just said, which was so critical. One is going back to First John three again, I just wanna say, because I'm not sure if I read the full verse now, I think about it, but. It ties in exactly what you're saying. The point being that God's love leads to change of identity. It leads to relationship and covenant, not just amnesty. [00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:49:04] Jesse Schwamb: So when John says, see where great love, and I do love that, you know, behold, check this out. See where great love the father has given us. Where. What does it result in that we should be called God's children and we are. I love that he has to add, add that at the end to emphasize like, trust me on this, like because of God's love. It's this giving of this love that recklessly spend. Thrift love that amazing grace isn't just the kind of warm and fuzzy philosophy. It isn't just hopefulness. Or some kind of ideology that ought to make you feel good as if somebody's thinking of you. But instead, it changes you. It elevates you. It puts you in relationship identity that cannot be compromised because God himself holds it for you. And so his love leads to being called his child, and you are. And he goes on to say, the reason the world does not know us is that I didn't know him. Dear friends, we are God's children now and what we'll be has not yet been revealed. And I think that's echoed then further on in the book, in that famous verse about what it means when we do come to ourselves by the power of the Holy Spirit for John one, nine, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. Except that's more than that, right? To your point, Tony, like the, I think this verse proves your exact point. It could have just ended there, right? Like John could have been like, that would've been enough, wouldn't it? That like we have sinned. We are cosmically treasonous against God. We are owed his wrath. We cannot stand in his presence. Our molecules themselves will be torn asunder when our sinfulness comes into any contact with his pure majesty and holiness. And so the verse should probably be in that kind of world if we confess our sins. He's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. That would be saying you no longer get the punishment, but it's far better than that, isn't it? If we confess our sins, he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is the righteous and faithful God imparts his own righteousness to us by removing our own unrighteousness, not just in removing the consequences from the punishment explicitly of sin, but to give us the rewards of rightful obedience, which his son undertook in living. And dying and rising for our benefit because he is for us. That is some amazing news and that is crazy scandalous. [00:51:25] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:51:26] Jesse Schwamb: There is a prayer in the valley of vision that begins with no human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel, and I love that. Because it's absolutely true. You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think. Even when we push our minds to their farthest creative end, we just couldn't come up with this. It's that good. It's that amazing. It's that wild. And we all need that wild because we are wild people that are so far apart from God. So I'm with you how amazing it is that we can only really get to, I think, fully processing that in the course of this story. I think even direct teaching would be good, but maybe not as good as what we get here. And so it draws us in, it compels us, it hems us into a plot, and then it kind of reads us or spits us back out as we are digested, I suppose, by the truth that's here. So there's so much for us to talk about, and I think there's so many good things to come, but we had to start here. We had to do it. I'm sure people were just like throwing their phones. Yelling at their earbuds. Like get, get to the details. Talk about, like you said, talk about the country, talk about the, what it meant that he was with the pigs. We'll get there. [00:52:50] Tony Arsenal: We will, we will.  [00:52:52] Encouragement and Call to Action [00:53:06] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I think that's a good place for us to push pause for the evening. Uh, if you have been blessed by this episode and you're still listening to us, um, we would love it if you would share this with someone else. We spend $0 on advertising. I doubt we will ever spend more than $0 on advertising. Um, this podcast only grows and only spreads. I suppose like some people stumble on it randomly, but for the most part, people come upon the podcast because somebody recommended it. So if you found this conversation helpful, if you have been blessed by it, pick one or two or three friends that you think could, uh, could be drawn closer to the gospel. 'cause that's really what we're trying to do here, and that's really what this parable does, is to draw us closer to God through the gospel, um, and send them the link. Just you're listening to this on your phone, probably, it's probably an Apple phone, statistically speaking. Just hit that share button and send it to their text message and, uh, ask them to listen and then have a conversation with it. That is the single best thing you could do besides praying for us, uh, to [00:54:00] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:54:01] Tony Arsenal: and to bless us, is to share this content with someone else. [00:54:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And hopefully you'll, like you said, Tony, I love this idea of sharing it and then talking about it. Debate amongst yourselves, with your friends, with your family. Get into the scripture yourselves and enjoy it. It, this is here for us. It's here to encourage us to strengthen us and to, I think now, I can't remember the word that I used at the top, but I wanted to coin that. I can't remember what it was. Was it Ella? Evolution? Yeah. And then take evolution into your own sphere of influence. And spread that around a little bit because I think that's like a strange Portman too, that I didn't mean to come up with. That's like doubled. It's got like, I've just, I've combined three words probably in that It's like a Uck in word, do you know what I mean? Like it's, it's just within, its, [00:54:44] Tony Arsenal: inside a word. [00:54:46] Jesse Schwamb: yes. I'd like to think that's because one, it was super brilliant, but I didn't mean for it to happen, but two, because like no single word would do. So I had to like. Bring that. Bring that, bring that together. So listen, make up your own words. Come hang out with us in the telegram chat. We really mean that. It's a new year and so if you've been listening to us, to us for any length of time, and this is the part of the podcast where you tune out 'cause you get tired of us saying you should join the Telegram chat. Don't tune it out this time. Maybe if you join, I'll stop saying it next time. So just come hang out. [00:55:13] Tony Arsenal: Probably [00:55:15] Jesse Schwamb: It's not gonna happen. We'll talk about it forever. [00:55:20] Tony Arsenal: We will. Jesse, I have this had this recurring nightmare over this last month. That I've been away from the podcast, that I would forget how to podcast and the, the way that it always manifests, I'm no joke. Like I had nightmares about this. [00:55:35] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, [00:55:36] Tony Arsenal: is that I would forget how to do the closing line. [00:55:39] Jesse Schwamb: that's fair. [00:55:40] Tony Arsenal: like super nervous right now. I don't know if you can tell. I feel like super nervous. [00:55:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we all heard that pause there. That was normally where we're like, there'd be the step in, and I will confess to you in the time that I got to just hang out with everybody and do it solo, when I knew that time was coming, I was always nervous because you always carry at least half of it. And so I honestly struggled sometimes with the how does it start? So I mean. Do you want to count it down? Like what, what would make you feel comfortable? What what can I do is like your, your emotional support co-host here to help you with a close [00:56:13] Tony Arsenal: like what you could do is honor everyone. 

What does it mean to be truly free from sin as a Christian? In this compelling New Year's episode, Jesse Schwamb explores John Owen's powerful 17th-century treatise on Romans 6:12, unpacking the crucial distinction between sin's presence and sin's dominion in the believer's life. Drawing from Owen's pastoral wisdom, this episode challenges listeners to examine whether sin merely dwells within them or actively rules over them. Through practical diagnostic questions and theological clarity, Jesse demonstrates how union with Christ breaks sin's reign while acknowledging the ongoing battle believers face. This episode offers both encouragement for the weary and a battle plan for those ready to wage war against remaining corruption through the ordinary means of grace. Key Takeaways Sin's presence versus sin's power: Christians experience sin remaining in them, but it no longer reigns over them—sin is present but dethroned, active but not sovereign. Dominion means rule and mastery: Sin's dominion isn't about occasional temptation or influence, but about who calls the shots, sets direction, and gets obeyed in your life. Resistance proves grace is reigning: The very fact that believers fight against sin demonstrates that sin has lost its dominion—tyrants don't get resisted by loyal subjects. Union with Christ breaks sin's rule: Freedom from sin's dominion comes not through self-improvement or behavioral modification, but through being joined to Christ in His death and resurrection. Grace changes your master, not just your status: The gospel doesn't merely pardon rebels; it transfers them into a new kingdom under a new king with a new governing principle. Diagnostic questions reveal sin's reign: Key indicators include whether you make peace with sin or wage war against it, whether you hide sin to protect it or expose it to kill it, and whether you justify or confess it. Ordinary means sustain the battle: Victory over sin comes through God's appointed channels—the Word, prayer, sacraments, and fellowship—not through spiritual shortcuts or hacks. Key Concepts The Distinction Between Sin's Presence and Sin's Power One of John Owen's most pastoral insights is his careful distinction between sin dwelling in believers versus sin reigning over believers. This isn't mere semantics—it's the difference between a defeated enemy occupying territory and an enemy holding sovereign control. Owen helps us understand that indwelling sin operates like a guerrilla force: active, disruptive, and often humiliating, but critically, no longer sovereign unless we surrender the throne. For believers struggling with recurring temptations or habitual sins, this distinction offers both comfort and challenge. The comfort comes in recognizing that the presence of internal conflict with sin is often evidence that grace has moved in and started an eviction process. The challenge lies in honest self-examination: Are there areas of life where we've made a covenant with sin, carved out corners where sin calls the shots? Owen's pastoral wisdom recognizes that you can have religious habits, theological vocabulary, and church involvement while sin remains the practical king in specific domains of life. How Union with Christ Breaks Sin's Dominion The Reformed doctrine of union with Christ provides the theological foundation for understanding how sin's dominion is actually broken. Owen emphasizes that Christianity is not primarily behavioral modification but entrance into a whole new reality. When believers are joined to Christ in His death and resurrection, that union fundamentally changes everything—not just legal status before God, but actual power dynamics in daily life. This means grace doesn't merely cancel your debt or pardon your rebellion; it changes your master entirely. A new dominion has been installed, a new king now rules, operating by a new principle through the Spirit. This is why Paul's language in Romans 6 isn't just about forgiveness but about transfer of kingdoms. The Christian life isn't a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement—it's warfare under a victorious King who has already raised the flag on the battlefield. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect; you're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. The Ordinary Means of Grace as Weapons in the Battle Owen is allergic to spiritual shortcuts and secret hacks for holiness. Instead, he consistently points believers to what Reformed theology calls the "ordinary means of grace"—those simple, God-appointed channels through which the Spirit works to apply Christ's victory to our daily lives. These include the Word of God (not merely read but received with faith and applied with honesty), prayer (as dependence rather than performance), the sacraments (as visible grace strengthening faith), and fellowship with accountability (because lone sheep Christianity is essentially wolf delivery). The hard truth Owen presses into our modern habits is that a neglected Bible and a prayerless life don't create mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness—they create predictable weakness. Grace reigns in lives where Christ is trusted, and Christ is trusted where Christ is attended to through these ordinary means. Owen would say that the Christian who doesn't pray against temptations they know they'll face is not truly repentant when they pray against them after they've occurred. This isn't legalism but recognition that spiritual warfare requires using the weapons Christ has actually provided. Memorable Quotes The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare, yes, but it's warfare under a victorious King. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it? Full Episode Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: as you fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out. Take heart, Christian, you're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion. It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year, [00:01:05] Introduction and New Year's Greetings [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse and this is the podcast with the same old truth for a brand new year. Hey, brothers and sisters, happy New Year. It's 2026 and it turns out the Band Smash Mouth was correct when they said the years just keep on coming. And on this episode, we've got a little bit of a New Year's treat for you. But before we do that, let me explain a couple things. Let me bring you into the Reform Brotherhood realm. Give you a little peek behind the curtain because. We've received the questions, we've heard the rumors. What is going on? Where was everybody? And where is Tony?  [00:01:47] Where is Tony? [00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Don't worry, I have answers for you. So first, we took a little bit of a hiatus, just a couple of weeks for the holidays at the turn of the year here. And during that time I did in fact see Tony with my own eyes. He does exist. Some have asked, has Jesse taken over the Reform Brotherhood podcast? Is there just one host? Now, is Tony in some kind of theological witness protection program because he's debated too many people online? I'm happy to tell you that Tony is alive and well. He's doing just fine. But as I mentioned previously, his family's been going through all kinds of sickness, particularly his wife, who is my sister. She's had some intractable upper respiratory infection stuff going on, so please pray for her. He's been dutifully taking care of the family and her, and that's just meant that sometimes the podcast has to take a little bit of a backseat, so he is coming back. He is alive and well. In fact, if you still want to interact with him, the best way to do that, as you've heard me say before, is you can actually, believe it or not, hang out with us. In the interweb sphere, and you can do that by going to T Me, lemme say that again. T Me Reform Brotherhood. It's been a while. Loved Ones T Me Reform Brotherhood. And there you'll find a little chat group that takes place in the telegram. Chat. So come hang out. There he is. There he is alive and well. And we'll be back before you know it. And that's why this whole episode is not just a castaway, it's a little bit of a New Year's treat. [00:03:19] New Year's Reflections and Resolutions [00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: And I say that because I think all of us at this time of year, whether we want to admit it or not, we do think a little bit about the fresh beginning, the new start, and. First, can we just say that what the world looks for in the calendar is what Christ gives to us in the every day? What a blessing that we have a God who gives us mercies, and those mercies are new every day. That's the best of all things, to have something new. And again, I think of Revelation 21, which by the way, when I was with Tony, I just heard my father, who's an amazing pastor, preached so well on Revelation 21. What he called the other side of Christmas. Speaking of this all how new heaven, new Earth, Christ, making all things new. And one of those things that hit me again in that sermon was that Christ is making all things new now. All new things, right? Amen. So that means that we get to be beneficiaries. Of the changing power of Christ, what a joy it is to have fresh beginnings, to have a new start without being made all over again. And so this time of year naturally draws our mind to those things again, some of us make resolutions, some of us don't. Whatever your preference and your priority is, that's fine by me. I think this gives us a chance to be reminded that at the beginning of something new, at the start or turnover of something different, it does orient our minds to thinking. What can I change? What can I process in a new and maybe more prolific or profound way? And so it just so happens that I want to make this New Year's treat for you, dear listener, brother or sister, because I happen to just come across a book that I've just finished reading in this new year. That I think sets us up perfectly with this in mind. [00:04:56] Introducing John Owen's Book [00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: If one of our goals just generally is to be more Christ-like, not for the sake of just emulating Christ per se, but because we see in him all that is elegant and beautiful and righteous and worthy, and so we want to partake in that kind of life and a very, very real way, and it just so happens well. Nothing, just so happens providentially. What happened is that I came across, as I was looking through the stack of unread books, the things that I wanted to read, one just happened to catch my eye, and it was by John Owen. And it's a book about being free from the dominion of sin, and I picked it up thinking, I don't know, I'd read a lot about this idea of what it means to have sin and grace in your life and that this would be another great treatise on how to explore those concepts. But what I found was, I think something so much deeper that was a treat already for me in this new year, and I think that's setting me up for how to process and frame and to think going forward in this new year. This is a phenomenal book. It's really not that long, so you can go read it yourselves, but the treat maybe might just be that you don't have to read it. Let me bring forward some of the themes for us to consider, because I think this is a great way to start the year. In fact, I have read that the 19th century Scottish professor, John Duncan, would assign this book to a student. So as he was training particularly for ministry, and when he would assign this book to them for reading, he would say. Gentlemen, prepare yourselves for the knife. I mean, what an opening, what an opening gambit for somebody who's recommending a book to you or acquiring that you read a book. And like Owen's stuff, I think that this is true. It's the kind of book that doesn't pull any punches. I mean, this whole book is written on a single verse from Romans 12, uh, Romans chapter six, verse 12, and the verse reads, let not sin, therefore reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions. And what basically Owen unpacks from that is he draws back to this idea of what it means to be not under the law, but now under grace. Now you guys probably know if you know anything about. John Owen, he was a Puritan hanging out in the 17th century and he wrote like he got paid by the Semicolon and this book called Free From Sins Dominion. It, you know, it sounds like a victory lap, doesn't it? For the Christian, and this is what I wanna get into, this is where some of the treat lies. It sounds like we're saying, I'm free, I'm done, I'm out. And Owen is there with his knife. He's there lovingly and firmly and repeatedly to say yes. But also, no, not, no in. There's no freedom, but no, as in you don't understand what kind of freedom this is. That's why it's so critical to think about this. So I thought let's hang out for a couple minutes. Let's walk through some of these ideas. This is all Owen. It's all stuff I've been processing. I'm hoping that it'll be something that sets you up for the new year, helps you think a little bit about what goals you might have. And by the way, I don't think it's a bad idea to set some goals for yourself as long as you're not legalistic, but you come into this with a renewed passion to serve the Lord Jesus. In 2026 in big and faith reaching ways. I think all of that calls us to kind of communal response in living out the theology that we espouse or the things that we pack into our mind. We're all gonna track probably this year, or many of us do if we're nerdy like you are Me, the things that we listen to and the things that we read. But what about the end of the year? Like the content and the spiritual depth of our lives. If we could measure that, if we could actually think back on it and meditate on what have we done, what have we tried to process, what have we tried to live out? I don't think it's a bad idea to say to yourself, if I'm going to think about that this time next year, what will I have to think about, if anything? So I think Owen really sets us up here with this big idea.  [00:08:39] Understanding Sin's Dominion [00:08:39] Jesse Schwamb: And the big idea is this, sin still lives in believers, but it no longer rules believers. Sin still lives in believers, but it does not rule there anymore. It remains a presence, but it's not a king. It still barks but doesn't own the house. And if you're thinking, well, great, so why does it feel like sin has a mortgage on my soul? Owen has answers for us. And those are questions that equally, almost every day I think about. And the beauty is he's not gentle about it, but he's deeply pastoral. He's like a doctor who tells you the truth while he also hands you the medicine. And that's one of the things I really like about this book. So let's talk about this idea of dominion. Why even throw that in the title Dominion's, kind of an old tiny word of power and control, and I dunno how often you use dominion like in your vocabulary, just casually when you're talking to people. But he starts off by essentially telling us what he means by this. Actually, more importantly, like what scripture means about sins, dominion, it's rain. It's talking about rule mastery governing power. Dominion means sin, calls the shots, sets the direction, issues the order, and gets obeyed. And so. After all that's set up, the question that we get that's diagnostic is, and I pose this to you, is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you because it's not the same thing. I think believers with various senses of conscience and sensitivity to these, these things will process that differently. And you should try to understand is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you? And I might add not just in charge writ large, but are there areas of your life where you've courted off, sectioned off where sin is in charge, where it is calling all the shots? A believer may feel sin painfully. I mean, I think there are times by God's grace that I do, and I'm sure there are times when you as well feel that way. Sin may harass. Attempt interrupt and disturb, but. The scripture insists that that's different than sin reigning. In other words, the believers fight with sin is now proof of sins dominion, actually, it's often proof sin has lost dominion, and I think this should be great encouragement to us. Lemme say it like a different way, tyrants. Don't usually get resisted by loyal subjects, and the resistance itself tells you something has changed. If you are rebellious against sin, then this shows something about your power to one, perceive it to be an enemy, even if it's present you're in the war, but also that there is power that you've received. Externally to recognize and then to fight against that sin, and no one knows that. The tender conscience is going to panic here because that's what tender conscience always do. Tony and I talked about that. If you're tender, you hear sin and your soul immediately opens 12 tabs entitled, what have I Not Saved? And we've joked about how this is kind of one of those things, especially in reformed circles, where we are so quick and insistent to show the depravity of sin, to emphasize the point, and then to bring the law to exemplify that point that sometimes this, especially among the sheep, those who are saved, those called in Christ, they become discouraged. And whether it's any of the Puritan writers who emphasize that without coming alongside and presenting the gospel side by side, or even more contemporary examples, you know, you've heard Tony and I joke about, you know, all these preachers who will really come down too hard almost on God's own people. And this is where it's so important that we understand that yes, the bad news is absolutely necessary. I mean, first of all, the bad news is truth, and that is that we are totally depraved, not as depraved as we can or should be, but depraved in every. Part of our own lives such that sin is prolific and ubiquitous and therefore taints all things That is literally a death sentence. And this is why the good news is good, because it's good news about bad news and that is that where that bad news is present. Here comes Christ as this second or the last Adam. So as in one. One man's sin all died in one man's sacrifice and righteousness all will live. Those who repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. That is the good news. So Owen slows down and he says, look at the category. Dominion is not the same as influence, not the same as temptation, not the same as indwelling corruption. Dominion is a throne, and sin may still throw stones at the palace, but if Christ is king, then sin isn't. I think you heard me say on one of the more recent episodes. That we all are slave to something or someone. So the question isn't who is your master, but what is your master like? And that's really what Paul is after in Romans. And what Owen kind of picks up here is his question is one of dominion. Woo. Who is set up on that throne? Two kingdoms, two masters. There's just one human heart. And so the frame is that we are living always under a ruler. Ruler, or I think like some of the more. Literal translation of the scripture will insert the word slave there instead of servant. To really emphasize this point that you're either under sins reign or you're under grace's reign, this is one of those things in life that's truly binary. You're either under sins reign or under Grace's reign. And here's the major reform note that Tony of I have. Really just some of our conversations have gravitated towards. You don't slowly graduate out of sins dominion by self-improvement. You don't level up into freedom like it's spiritual Mario car, you know. The whole point of Paul bringing forward this contrast is that freedom comes through a change of lordship. Sin is not just a list of bad actions, it's a power, it's a master, it's a dominion. And grace is also a reign, not mere leniency. It's not like the opposite or it's not like some cosmic boys will be boys, but it's a ruling power through Christ. And so the heart question becomes who rules you and who rules me? In all areas of our life, I think the Christian will be quick to say, well, Christ does reign. I think what Paul is drilling out here is more specifically, but who reigns in your finances? Who reigns in your sexuality? Who reigns in how you spend your time? Who reigns in how you serve others? Who reigns in your disposition? Who reigns in how you take care of your family? Owen is totally allergic to superficial religion. It's one of the things I really like about him. You can have religious habits and still live under sins, dominion. You can have theological vocabulary, strong opinions, even church involvement, and still sin is the practical king. And so we're really after, in this new year, at least, I want to be, what is the practical rule in dominion that supersedes everything in my life? And again, even the areas that I find difficult or that are tough where, who is ruling in those areas? Because the dominion of sin isn't measured by whether you have a conscience, but it's measured by whether you submit to sin as a governing authority. And I think the challenge here for us isn't, again, just are we submitting everywhere to. As a governing authority, but are there places where we do carve out purposefully running headlong into planning where we allow sin to call the shots, where we, even if after the fact we, we have and expressed some remorse over those things, but in one point in this book, Owen says something so succinctly, it really just hit me upside the head and it was that he said something the extent of. The Christian that does not pray against the temptation that they know they will face is not truly repentant when they pray against it after it has occurred. That was the knife, brothers and sisters. 'cause I was like, amen. That's right on. And that's I think what Paul is drawing us to here, that the real reign and rule of Christ is one of power. And if we so desire it, if. Pray and ask or quest, the Holy Spirit move us from glory into glory. Even in these places where we find sin intractable, then we should want to wage war by the power of Christ. And there is real power to do away with sin, not entirely, but to face up against these temptations with strength so that our spiritual character, our spiritual resolve, our spiritual depth, authenticity, and abundant life is not ruined, destroyed, or hampered. And so sin reigns. Of course for all of us in the old self, the, the old management Owen describes what it looks like when sin rules. He says it does so with the precision of someone who has watched his own heart long enough to be unimpressed. And so see here's, here's what he gives as some practical tips and I give to you. [00:17:02] Practical Tips for Recognizing Sin's Dominion [00:17:02] Jesse Schwamb: I'm just passing them along for this new year to get a sense for whether sin is raining or not. Here's, here's a couple things. One is that the will is bent towards sin as the preferred path, and that is there. Maybe there are parts in your life where there are mine, where that's where you want to go, and you know you probably shouldn't, but that's where you want to go. The mind excuses sin, rationalizes sin or defends sin. I think we all have those characteristics in our lives. We say, well, I, I'll get to that eventually, or there'll be a better time for me to really confront that kind of sin. And so we make excuses or we just say, this is how it is, or this is how I was made, or this is my personality. Another way in which sin reigns, or we can discern that it's raining. Is the affection love sin? Maybe not openly, but functionally. Or that the person yields as a pattern, not merely as a stumble. That is that we've cut ourselves into a groove of doing these things and at some point we just fall on our desire to actually move ourselves or pray that Christ would move us out of those things. And so in Sin Dominion, a person may feel occasional regret, but the overall direction is sin gets its way. And I think if we're all honest. I think Owen is calling us to again, look at all areas of our life where we know that there are pathways in which we run headlong in that sinful way, and that we allow sin to get hiss own way. And I think Owen is careful. Sin doesn't need you to enjoy every sin. I think sin, if we're like personifying, it is happy if you just obey. I mean, sin can rule through fear, habit, appetite, reputation, secret, compromise, whatever keeps you under its thumb, but it will attempt to keep you under its thumb. Thumb. So you can think of it this way. Sin doesn't need you to throw a parade for it. Sin just needs you to keep paying tribute. And I, when I thought about this, I thought that is so correct and this is why it is so dangerous. Why does so compromising, why it costs so much because. Not only is it powerful in its rule and dominion, but that rule and dominion is one of just conscious and ongoing destruction. It's emptiness in the committing of the sin. Even if you thought it would bring you even some kind of temporary relief, while often knowing in the act or while you're pursuing it, that's gonna leave you empty and destroyed. And that's all it does. So this dangerous loop, I mean, you can imagine this is reading. This made me just think. How much mercy we ought to have for those who are around us, who are blinded by sin as we once were, who are living in darkness, which of course, why the Bible speaks of these themes of Christ coming in light to bring forward the illuminating presence of God's love and the purifying power of His forgiveness in his mercy, because the opposite of that is stumbling around living in darkness. And so I love that Owen. Owen and Paul of course, pulls us into this direction of saying, here is how sin loses its dominion. Then if all those things are true and they can be true, and I think even like little corners of our living spaces, then how does SIM sin lose that dominion?  [00:20:17] Breaking Sin's Dominion through Union with Christ [00:20:17] Jesse Schwamb: And the answer is, union with Christ, this blessed union with Christ that we get, I mean the best of all New Year's treats when we come into the family of Christ, when he saves us, when we reach out to him with repentance and forgiveness, and he restores us into a new and living hope. And here's the anchor sins, dominion. Is broken through that union. It's broken through that gospel. It's broken through all of the good work of Jesus Christ applied onto your behalf and to mine, not through vibes, of course, not through trying hider not through a streak counter. You know, it's not as if we come forward and somehow elevate ourselves to the place of the deserving poor and bring our empty hands and say, I'm now ready to receive our gift. I think all of us know better than that. When we recognize how sinful and corrupt even we are in the saved state. That is that we still feel that battle that Paul talks about wanting to do these things and not being able to do the very things that I want to do, but the believer. Is joined to Christ in his death and resurrection, and that union changes everything. I mean, think about that for a second. Joined in his death and his resurrection, like now, both of those things true. You are so tightly coupled and interwoven to those things that cannot be dissolved or separated. And of course that should change everything. If we recognize the weight of that one, it does change our both status, our identity, and it changes our harmony with Christ. So Owen, I think wants us to see in his writing here that Christianity is not primarily, of course, behavioral modification. It's a whole new reality. That's why, you know, Paul can write, listen, I'm a new creation in Christ, brand new again. He's making all things new. He's making all things new. He's making you new. He's making me new. It's like the Oprah style. You get new and you get you, and you are getting new when Christ is doing his work. And when is Christ doing his work? Always in his children. So Christ of course, didn't merely come to forgive sins guilt. He also came to break sins rule, and this is like the joy of living in 2026 when we know we have a victorious savior and that that victory applies to us in the here and now as well as when we'll be glorified. And that matters because some of us only think of salvation like this. Jesus forgives me. God won't punish me, and that's fantastic. I mean, maybe we might go as far to say Jesus forgives me, and so now I have the God's blessing. But it's even more and bigger than that. It's all true. But what Paul is saying here is that's not the whole story. Grace doesn't just pirate in rebels. Grace transfers rebels into a new kingdom.  [00:22:51] Grace Changes Your Master [00:22:51] Jesse Schwamb: Grace doesn't merely cancel your debt, it changes your master. So when the New Testament says you're not under sin, but under grace, here's what Owen hears and he's articulating. A new dominion has been installed. A new king now rules with a new principle by the spirit through faith according to Christ. [00:23:09] Why Do We Still Sin? [00:23:09] Jesse Schwamb: Now of course, there is a, but I still sin. There's presence versus the power in this, and that's where Owen anticipates the question that every honest, Christian, Christian asks, and I'm sure you have to, and that is okay. Level with me though, practically speaking. If I'm free from Sins Dominion, why do I still sin? And I love that. One of the great things about puritanical writing is that they love to set this up where they actually create their own objections and put them into the book. So you're, you're reading something, a treatise from some Puritan, and all of a sudden you'll find in the main argument, here's an opposition. And you might think, I, I wasn't even thinking about that yet, but now I am. And so I think if you didn't think about it yet, you should be asking yourself, well, if I'm really free. From Sin Dominion as you're promulgating, as you're saying in this little treat of the new year, then why in this new year in 2020 6:00 AM I gonna sin? And I guarantee you, you will sin. And so why? I mean, it's already been. Four days. So for me, there's been a lot of since happened and a lot of grace and forgiveness. So Owen's answer is, uh, comforting and bracing. So, strap in. Here's what he says. He says, you sin because sin remains in you, but it no longer reigns over you. It's there, but it does not reign over you. You'll may be thinking like this, that's just semantics. Uh, why that doesn't help me at all. Hang in there. I think this is like the meat of what Owen gives us in this new year now, even though he wrote in the 17th century to really give us, to hold onto by the power of the spirit to make changes that are spirit empowered and to move forward with victory and grace. Understanding that all of that victory, all of that battle belongs to the Lord. So indwelling sin is like a gorilla force. It's active, it's disruptive, and it's often humiliating, but it's not sovereign unless you surrender the throne. I wanna say that again. It is this gorilla force. It is this thing that's trying to act and disrupt and to humiliate you and to bring destruction, but it is not sovereign unless you surrender. [00:25:11] Owen's Practical Test for Sin [00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: And here's a practical test that Owen actually gives us in the book. It's not to torment us, I think, but it's a test to help clarify. And I've been thinking about this and I think you should too. Here's a couple questions. When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it? Do you justify or do you confess it? And do you plan it, cherish it, defend it, or do you grieve it and fight it? Aren't those good? I mean, stop now and go back like 15 seconds and listen to those again if you need to, and you might, or write those down. Put those in like a little journal as I have and put those before you this year as you evaluate. Are you surrendering the throne, so to speak on these things? Do you cherish sin? Do you make peace with it? Do you justify it or do you make war on it? Do you expose it and bring it into the light? Do you confess it and do you fight against it? You know, Owen's Pastoral brilliance is that he doesn't say believers never fall. He says, believers don't settle. And since Dominion is less about some kind of single act and more about a settled arrangement, a covenant with sin and of course with a covenant in Christ is that bigger, better, glorious covenant, the one that restores us, give us abundant life and fulfills us. And if we replace it within any place, a covenant of sin, what we get is not just the, the opposite of that. But we get sheer destruction. We get darkness, we get blackness. If you're constantly negotiating terms with sin, okay, sin, you can have this corner of my life and I'll keep the rest. Then I think what Paul and Owen would, Owen would say to us here is you're playing with chains. You're literally, we are allowing ourselves to be bound, even if it's in some small way, and to be bound in any ways to be bound overall if you're fighting, even if it's often clumsy like me, often tired, sometimes failing your warfare is probably evidence of grace's reign. That power of God in your life to bring forward real change for the battle. And this is what we've, Tony and I talk about all the time.  [00:27:23] Ordinary Means of Grace [00:27:23] Jesse Schwamb: It's this very ordinary means of grace. In other words, like God delights to provide this kind of supply and resource to you, and it's his best way. He doesn't point you to some secret hacks. There's no, you know, like list of like 20 things you can do in 2026 or probably should have said 26 things you can do in 2026, um, to be. A better follower of Jesus Christ. Instead, he points you to the Spirit working through God's appointed channels, these ordinary means of grace. What are those things again? This is old truth. For a new year, we know that grace reigns through the word of God. Not merely read, but received, heard with faith, applied with honesty, especially on the Lord's day. Prayer, not as performance, but as dependence, both public and private. The sacraments, the ordinances as God's visible grace to strengthen faith, and then fellowship and accountability because lone sheep Christianity is basically wolf delivery, right? These things. I think we sometimes set aside in the search for the hacks, the things on YouTube that catch our eye, that say, wouldn't it be an easy way to get outsized and leveraged improvement in my life if I could just do these things? And God says, no, no, no. What I've given to you is these means of grace. And guess what? They're simple but profound. They're ordinary, but extraordinary in their effect. And they're the word prayer, sacrament, sacraments, and fellowship and accountability. So. Loved ones. We cannot get lost in the sauce on this. These are the things that God gives us. We ought to lean into those things, trust them. And entrust ourselves to them because Paul is not saying that those things are gonna save you, nor are Owen. He's saying this is how the king's power is experienced in the life of the citizen. And these two mark, the fact that grace reigns and has dominion over our life rather than sin. If you want freedom from sins, daily tyranny, don't just glare at your sin and make speeches. You know, use the weapons Christ gives because of the hard truth. Owen would gladly press, I think, into our modern habits, and it's this, a neglected bible and a prayerless life do not create, quote unquote, mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness. They create predictable weakness, and that's a really hard truth because I know that we're all busy. But this idea of spending time, meditating, praying. Crying out to God that these things prevent. In some ways this predictable weakness and the grace reigns in the life where Christ is trusted, and we need these ordinary means to trust ourselves more to Christ, and Christ is trusted. Where Christ is attended to. And so our attending to Christ happens in these ordinary means. Aren't you glad they're ordinary means? Because if they're, if we had to attend to Christ in extraordinary means, we couldn't even accomplish that. And so the aim then is not gonna be some kinda sinless perfection, but real liberation. I mean, here's the good stuff. Owen's aim in this treatise is not to make you pretend that you're fine. And I love that because we, we shouldn't, my wife likes to say, I'm fine. It's all fine, everything's fine. And I, I sometimes challenge her and I say, you know, it's okay. That's not fine because there are many things that are just not fine. We do not have to try to manufacture and sing songs of joy at the grave of Lazarus. You know, Christ's aim in this is to open our eyes to our own depravity, our own contingency, and then to rely on him completely and fully as the savior that he is. The savior that he was when he lived in perfect past of obedience and also died. And so what we have from him is this promise that he will take care of us in the current state, and that current state draws us closer and closer to him if we recognize it by the power of the Holy Spirit.  [00:31:21] Freedom from Sin's Dominion [00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: And so Paul's aim is to help you and me live like someone who has been actually set free. And I think here's what freedom from sins domain means. It means things like we can say no from the heart, not merely from embarrassment. That as we look at sin and we can look on our savior who is crucified and we can say from the heart, I refuse to participate in that. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit. It grieves God the Father. It grieves God the son. It means that we can confess sin without collapsing in despair. It means that we can hold these two tensions in reality that we are simultaneously sinner and saint. It can't be 2026 without a little bit of Luther. It means that we can recognize that we are in a great amount of. Full depravity under sins weight without falling in, collapsing into ourselves into complete de depression and despair. It means that we can fight sin without trying to earn God's love. That God's love itself solidifying us. And identity as his children means that he does give us every supply in dire time of need to fight sin without fearing that we are somehow losing his love in the fight. But that because he loves us, he's with the fight. In fact, he's the one that underwrites our battle, that equips us with the armor that sends us out with the weapons, knowing that we are in a state of depravity, and that yet he has changed our identity and reset our course, and now equipped us to fight the battle which we find ourselves in as he's with us. It means that we can pursue holiness. Because we've been adopted and not just because we're trying to audition for God or that we're trying again to earn his favor by merit, it means that the holiness that we seek after now we don't have to worry about some part of our mind is, am I doing this? Because it'll somehow ingratiate God towards me a little bit more, or maybe today if I'm really good, or if I spend 45 minutes in prayer or two minutes in prayer or 10 minutes in the Bible, that I'll have a better day or God will appreciate me more. He will draw closer to me. Now Owen says, listen, you can pursue holiness when you're under the reign of grace because you've already been adopted and so therefore there's no more performance necessary. There's no more worrying about, there's more guilt about why you do it. There's no more thinking about it in any kinda legalistic terms. Throw all of that out because you're not auditioning anymore. You're already in the family. I think Owen would absolutely say, if you belong to Christ, your life cannot be a comfortable home for sin. And if you feel in some ways as I do that there are parts of your life where sin is very comfortable, and maybe even before it gets to the door and rings the bell that you're already opening and welcoming it in, then we ought to just pray. Pray desperately to God that he would make our lives such that they would not be a comfortable home for sin. If he has to break us, if he has to crush us, if he has to cut us, if he has to take us over the anvil as it were of his grace, and strike us with the hammer of the law so that he could mold us in the gospel into some kind of beautiful and useful instrument for his glory, that in 2026 loved ones, we ought to pray that way. And I know that's. Not an easy way to pray. It is a way though that promises that grace will reign and have dominion over our lives. It's not because God is petty, it's not because grace is fragile, but because a new reign has begun.  [00:35:02] Final Encouragement and Gratitude [00:35:02] Jesse Schwamb: So here's some final encouragement I think that. Owen gives us in this writing on this, what does it mean to be free from sins Dominion? Here's what I think he would say is we can't deny the battle. Paul doesn't, and Owen doesn't. He dignifies it. Both of those men do. They tell you that the struggle is real. But they refuse to let you call defeat normal Christianity. Uh, maybe there's no such thing as normal Christianity. 'cause Christianity by itself is something so otherworldly, something so inconceivable. We at once recognize that the bad news, that sin is prolific, it's destructive. Is hurtful, is so unkind is everywhere, and it hurts us. It hurts the believer and the unbeliever alike. And then this idea, this almost breathtaking, inconceivable idea that God himself loved his creation so much that he would send his own son to come and to bring restoration. That Revelation 21 style, all things new is. Wild. Of course it's otherworldly because it doesn't make any sense if you're in Christ. The good news is for this year and all others, sin is not your king. Uh, maybe some people like need to hear that again, or maybe there's somebody in the back, you didn't hear it the first time. If you're in Christ, sin is not your king. That doesn't mean that you'll never feel temptation. It doesn't mean that you'll never have ugly moments. You wish you could erase. It doesn't even mean sanctification is quick, neat, or Instagramable, but it does mean this since Dominion has been broken. Grace now reigns. Christ is a ruler and the spirit is at work in you and me. So we don't wanna interpret the presence of conflict as the absence of grace. Now sometimes conflict is the very evidence that Grace has moved in and started an eviction. That if you are a rebel against sin, then Grace is ruling and has dominion in your life. And as you fight, as I fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out. So take heart, Christian, take heart. Dear ones, take heart, loved ones. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion. It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year, at least. Something for you and me to think about as we go into 2026. There's so much more. That we could say there is so much that we could talk about in terms of law and gospel and grace and antinomianism. But I think the most important thing for us to remember is that Christ's grip on us is unbreakable, and that grip ushers us into and sustains us in this dominion of grace. And at the same time when I think Paul and Owen would challenge us with. Is that we need to remember that while Christ rules overall, we ought to examine ourselves and find those places where we do not allow him, or we restrict his rule in movement or we fight against him instead of fighting against the sin. Which he's empowered us to tackle. Again, this doesn't mean that we'll be perfect, it means that we will continue on sinning, but I hope what you've gotten from Owen and what you've read here from Paul is this idea of the tender-hearted Christian that is. Resilient because of Christ that even in every fall there is a lot of resurrection, and that when we do stumble, that we get back up. We seek repentance quickly. We keep short accounts with God. We move forward by his love and his power so that there is increasing levels of defeat, of sin, of mortification, of sin according to another work by John Owens in all of those things. I hope that we'll be reminded that in this year ahead there is victory for you and there is victory for me. So that's the treat loved ones. We'll be back with your regularly scheduled, dual hosted programming very, very, very, very soon. Again, the rumors of Tony's demise have been greatly exaggerated and he will be back to join us. But before we get to the very, very close, there's a couple of things I wanna put before you as the new year begins. First, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you to everybody. Thank you to people who listen. Thank you, people who will come and hang out in the telegram chat, which by the way, you can get to by going to t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood. Thank you for those. Who pray for us. Thank you for those who send notes of encouragement. Thank you for the feedback and thank you for your participation because this was really meant to be a conversation that Tony and I started 10 years ago that really we thought we'd love to have other people join in on. And by God's grace and his design and great providence, they have in a ways that have been like totally unexpected. The Telegram Chat, for instance, is a way where brothers and sisters from all over the world are hanging out and just loving. Talking about processing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And man, is that a super delight. So do hope maybe in 2026 you'll make it your own resolution to just come poke around in there and coming out with us. I would love to meet you. So come say hello. The last thing I wanna say thank you for is all of those who give financially to make sure the podcast. Still happens, to be honest with you. It's surprisingly expensive to do the podcast. And so whether it's like the hosting fees or the processing stuff, or just publishing the episodes, making them arrive wherever they arrive so that you can have them in the moment that you expect them to show up is costly. And so at some point people started to ask, lovely Brothers, sisters said, you know what? I can't give a lot, but could I give a little something to make sure that it just keeps happening so that it moves forward? And so if you're in that place this year and you've thought, you know what? I would love to just give one unit of whatever currency it is and where you live in the world, we would be so happy and humbled for you to do that because that's what so many have done. And all those little things add up. So if you are thinking, you know what, God has blessed in this podcast, and if he has, we certainly know it's not because of me, and it's not because of Tony. It's because God is good and His word does what His word does. It goes out and never returns void. And we hope that we're just constantly speaking and processing, metabolizing, chewing on that word. And just bring it before you in conversation, because I know I can speak for Tony. We just love to talk about Jesus. We love God because he first loved us. I'm still constantly, every day amazed, even in this fourth day of the new year that God loves me and that he's for me, that he's with me in this year. It's an incredible thing, and so if you feel that way too and are wanting to connect or give to something toward that end, we love for you to do that. Uh, here's the logistics. If you wanna do that, just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and you could give a one time or reoccurring gift. You could do that in 2026 and a. I wanna say for all those who do that, and by the way, there have been brothers and sisters that have given to this podcast. So you can hear it every week, every time it shows up that have given four years to make that happen. And man, does that undo me because that is such a gift to God's people just allowing us to continue to speak his name and to put it out into the interwebs unapologetically. And so that there are no Jericho paywalls that need to be torn down. There's no weird ads in the middle of this. There's no annoying bumpers at the beginning of the end. It's just us being able to talk about Jesus, and I love that. Lastly, I say to you, brothers and sisters come along with me and Tony this year. We've got so many things we want to talk about. The list of parables that we're gonna continue to process together and go through is so big. I just never really have gotten a full appreciation. For all these amazing things that Jesus is teaching in the parables and how many of them there are, and even the ones that are like on the margin, where people are like, well, it could be a parable, it could not. And we're just like, we're doing 'em all. We're doing 'em all. So I think that's gonna be most of our 2026, but I think we're going to really, really enjoy it together. So we'll be back at that very, very soon. I wish you the best, most profitable, productive, and spiritually filled, abundant year ahead of you. I pray for all of you that I'll be the best one yet, and it will be the best one because you will take seriously. What Owen and what Paul has challenged us with here, and that is that we ought to ensure that grace has dominion over our lives. So get in there. Get in the battle. Get in the struggle. Embrace those ordinary means. Know that God is for you, and that he's freed you from sins dominion. And until we talk about something else next time, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. 

In episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood, host Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological question: "Is God humble?" Through a careful examination of Philippians 2 and the narrative of Pharaoh in Exodus, Jesse unpacks how Christ's incarnation represents the ultimate act of divine humility. This episode reveals how Jesus—fully God and fully man—humbled himself through obedience to the point of death on a cross. As we approach the Christmas season, this timely reflection helps us understand that Christ's humility isn't just a theological concept but the very foundation of our salvation and the magnetic force that draws sinners to him. Jesse connects this humility to Jesus' parables about seeking the lost, showing that God's love manifests through the paradox of the exalted one becoming lowly. Key Takeaways Humility is fundamentally a creaturely virtue that acknowledges God as Lord and responds in obedience. Christ's incarnation wasn't a subtraction of divinity but an addition of humanity, allowing him to humble himself. Divine humility is displayed in Jesus becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:8). Pride, the opposite of humility, is actively opposed by God throughout Scripture. Christ's humility is what draws sinners to him, as seen in the parables of the lost coin, sheep, and son. True humility embraces our limitations as creatures and recognizes God's rightful authority. Jesus learned obedience through suffering, becoming the perfect high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses. The Paradox of Divine Humility Christ's humility represents one of the most astonishing paradoxes in Scripture. As Jesse explains, humility is properly understood as a creaturely virtue—it acknowledges God as Lord and obeys as a servant. For the eternal Son to humble himself, he first had to take on human nature. The incarnation wasn't God ceasing to be God but rather God adding humanity to himself. The divine Son emptied himself "not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world." This emptying makes possible Christ's perfect obedience. Since humility means acknowledging God as Lord and obeying as a servant, the Son took "the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." This allowed Jesus to demonstrate a servant heart with equal passion for God's holiness and his people's purity. Unlike our inconsistent obedience, Jesus' obedience was "an all the way kind of obedience" that persisted through suffering to death on a cross. The Magnetic Draw of Christ's Humility One of the most profound insights from the episode is how Christ's humility functions as a magnetic force drawing sinners to him. Jesse notes that in the parables, tax collectors and sinners were drawn not to the Pharisees' teaching but to Jesus himself. They came "almost magnetically" to be in his presence and hear his words. Why would this be? The answer lies in recognizing that "we all have a master" and "we are all bound to something." The critical question becomes: "How good and kind is your master?" Christ's humility reveals him to be the perfect master—one who does not lord his authority over us but uses it to serve us, even to the point of death. This servant-hearted humility draws people because it demonstrates love in action. When Jesus humbles himself to seek the lost, he reveals that the gospel isn't about making "naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him." Memorable Quotes "To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant. In order to do so, then the Son had to take this form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." "Christ's obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else." "To humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather is pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity. To humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made." Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so. Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people. Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where all of mankind is on the naughty list. Hey, brothers and sisters, I am solo hosting once again on this episode, but I don't want you to worry. Tony will be back. Tony is alive and well. He is out in the wild doing his thing. Actually, this is probably the time of year where Tony and I bring forward that annual or perennial denial. You know, the one, it's sy against the frailty, weakness, contingency of humankind. And most often manifested in this time of year in sickness. So I don't know where you live in the world, but in my part of the world, everybody's getting it and everything is going around. The sickness is everywhere. And even if you're bobbing and weaving, if you're laying low, if you're trying to keep your head down, it just seems somehow. To snipe you. And so it sniped Tony last week and this week. Now it is his family and so he's doing what we shall do for another. He's caring for those in his own regard that are sick and unwell. And so that means it's just me on this particular episode, but not to fear. We've got lots of great things to talk about. [00:02:12] The Question: Is God Humble? [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, the whole purpose of this episode is going to be talking about this question is God humble and. This, if you think it's just a one-off episode. It's actually born out of this continued series that we're doing where we're going through the parables. And again, we've been talking a lot about lostness and finding things and Christ coming and seeking, saving those things that were very lost. And so as I continue to process this with Tony, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is this question is God. Humble and what does that even have to do with any of these wild parables that we've been talking about? You know the ones too, especially if you've been listening along and hopefully you have go back, check those bad boys out. We've been talking about the lost coin, the lost Sheep, and we have yet to get to because we're just teasing this for you. We, we keep telling you it's coming, but that's just to build like this amazing anticipation for the parable of the lost son or the prodigal son. It's coming, and part of that, again, for me is wrapped up in this question, is God humble? So let's talk about that a little bit. [00:03:13] Humility in Scripture [00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's interesting to me that throughout the scriptures, we find across both all the New Testament, that God gives us this imperative to seek humility or to put on humility, or to have a humble mind, as Peter says. And it's something that is so ubiquitous that we kind of just flies by us. Of course. Like we would get the sense that it would be ridiculous to be like. I am so good at being humble that that in itself is oxymoronic. And yet we also know that we don't want to advertise, that we're trying to seek after humility. 'cause it seems like that's the very thing that we're trying to avoid in proclaiming or promulgating our pride and that kind of thing. But it's not just that, of course, God is seeking his children to be humble, but I think one of the most condemning things the scripture says to us about how God behaves. Toward people is that he opposes the proud. So the opposite of being humble, and we'll get to that in a second. We had to define what that means, but let's just take for a second that the opposite of that might be being prideful. It is fascinating that it's not just God is indifferent toward pride, that he does everything in his volition to push against it. And of course, because nothing can thwart the outstretched in mighty arm of God, that means that he wins inevitably against all that is pride prideful. And so he opposes it. And this is what. We should realize is that really the eschatological judgment, the fact that there is both heaven and hell reward and eternal punishment. This is a reflection of God opposing the proud that in the final state, the one who says, I want nothing to do with God because I can take care of it myself, is the one that God must oppose pose because he always. Opposes that which is prideful, and so it makes sense. Then if he opposes the proud, if that is in a way, an enemy that he will ultimately defeat, it cannot stand up against him that shouldn't. That in that path is both destruction that is internally derived and chosen, but also destruction that comes externally because it will be defeated. Then the best thing that God's people could be is to be humble. And so the question I think then persists, can God be humble? Is God. Humble. One of the things that is clear in scripture, again, this is the testimony of the entire arc of the salvific story of God and his recu of his people. Um, the coming and drawing close giving of himself so that he might draw people onto himself. Is that the testimony of humility is both positive and negative in the scriptures. So we could look at examples of those who humbled themselves. That's what the scripture says, like Josiah, Hezekiah, Rebo, Ahab, Vanessa, and then there, of course, you could probably think of as just as many negative examples who did not. What comes to my mind, of course, is Pharaoh. Or am Amen or Zetia. So what becomes clear though is when you look at those examples that the humbling first belongs to the hand of God. That even here, once again, God's doing all the verbs. That's exactly what he does. And so this idea of even like humbling yourself. Has like a precursor, there's an antecedent. And is God doing some kind of great work to allow for this humbling to even take place? He initiates the humbling of his creatures. And once he has, then the question confronts us, uh, which is, are we going to receive it? How will we bear up underneath it? Will we submit ourselves to it because God has allowed us, or has humbled ourselves first so that we don't respond in kind. So in response to his humbling hand. Will we kick against him? Or as the, you know, king James version says, will we kick against the gods or are we going to come and humble ourselves before God? So this idea, I think of humbling ourselves isn't just like you wake up one day and you say, no, it'd be really fantastic. Is my life would be better if I was just humble. I, I hear that God opposed to the proud, I don't wanna get. Lost in that. I don't wanna get wrapped in that. I would rather, instead I just become more humble. Even the ability to humble oneself first comes from this humbling hand of God, which is of course the greatest gift. And so of course Peter writes, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I mean, that's where I'm drawing this from and. That is the first descent of humility. The first coming down is a word that God would do that for us, will put us in a place that we might be humbled. And then the creature has somewhat in his turn kind of imperfect language, but somehow in his response that God is humbling me. Will I embrace it? Will I humble myself? So given that background, I think you know exactly where I'm about to go in the scripture, and that is. The pretty, I would say, epic passage of humility, which is Philippians two. It's one of the most striking assertions in all of scriptures. That Christ himself, Jesus the Savior, the one who is truly God and truly man, he humbled himself and God himself truly divine, truly human, and the person of his son, he humbles himself. And I think that is worth the slow meditation and a little bit of marveling again, as we consider that in light of. All that happens in these parables about lostness and ness is coming from in some way this first humility. And I think that's just so critical because it's not just context, it's the air in which we breathe and operate and understand who we are and who we are in Christ. And so I think before like we even assume. I wanna assume like too much about like this idea of humility and then getting it ultimately to this question is God humble, which you may think I just answered by reading Philippians two eight, but in fact I think it's even more complex and more beautiful and more deeply layered than all of that. I think it's worth for a second, just thinking about this idea of like, what is humility? [00:08:35] Pharaoh's Pride vs. Humility [00:08:35] Jesse Schwamb: And as far as I can tell, really the first mention of humility outright, like outright mention explicit notation in the scriptures comes in that showdown between Egypt's Pharaoh and Yahweh mediated through Moses and. And I picked this because it's really instructive for getting a sense of how the Bible, how the scripture, the Holy Spirit is apprehending this word and driving it into the context so that we might learn from it, so that later on we're told that we ought to exhibit humility, put on humility that we understand it in the way that God has taught it to us. And so you'll remember. Probably that Moses dared to appear before Pharaoh. He is an Exodus five, and he speaks on Yahweh's behalf, and it's that famous sentence, that famous imperative, let my people go to, which Pharaoh replies in my paraphrase, listen, I don't know who Yahweh is. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't listen to his voice. I don't acknowledge him, and therefore you can't go. It's just not gonna happen. What is incredible about this. What I think is like really illustrative for our lives is that Pharaoh swollen in pride here, and again, God's gonna pose him swollen with all of this. Pride has, it's not that he hasn't thought through what he's saying here, it's just that he's made an incredible miscalculation. He actually did a little mathematics here as the creature, and he decides that. As a creature in relation to the creator God that he does not need to obey. In other words, he does not acknowledge or recognize or know this God, and because he doesn't know any of those things about Yahweh, then he's well within his reason to come to the conclusion that he does not need to obey and therefore he refuses. The reason why I think that's so critical and a little bit wild is that is exactly what the natural man is prone to do to make this miscalculation built on even some kind of reasonable logic, so to speak. That says, well, because I don't understand it, because I don't see it, because I can't acknowledge it because I've never heard it. Therefore, it cannot exist. It doesn't exist. It's not worthy of being obeyed. It's a bit like saying, just because I've never seen fire, that's not hot. And so it's crazy here that in the midst of all of that, we could say Pharaoh has made this enormous miscalculation. And so what he's going to do is he's going to essentially oppose God. He refuses to obey, and then of course, Exodus 10 as we move. This story describes this call to humility, and it is a call to humility, which when I was thinking back through this, I was like, this is wild. Because we tend to think this story as like submission and beating down and humility might not be the principle word. That comes to our mind when we think about how Har Pharaoh has to ultimately respond. But after seven plagues on the cusp of the eighth plague, God speaks to Pharaoh, and again, he's listen. He says to him, how long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? So fascinating because we have this. Humbling, mighty hand of God, the outstretched work of God, his hand and arm going out into the world of his creation and putting Pharaoh in a particular place and position. And the piercing question in this context of this extended powerful encounter gives us this glimpse into the heart of humility, which I think is this humility recognizes and obeys the one who is truly. God. So there's not just an intellectual scent, but an experiential knowledge that comes from the revelation of who God is that is under his purview granted to his people, and that then causes us to acknowledge and obey the one who's truly Lord. It's exact opposite of affairs response, which again says, I don't know that voice. I've never heard it. Who is Yahweh? And instead it's replaced with a humility that acknowledges that God is Lord of all, that Jesus Christ is one only son, and that his Holy Spirit is with and indwells his people and that he is truly Lord. So humility entails this kind of right view, I think of self. Because Pharaoh Miscalculates, but the humble person makes the right calculus, the one who is created by God and accountable to God, which requires the right view of God as creator and this authority in relation to all his creatures. And so humility then is of course, like not a preoccupation with self or one's, even one's own lowness only in so much as it's in relation to what we just mentioned. That's a right view of self. It's an agreement with God. Of course confession coming alongside agreeing with God, but it's a mindful and conscious understanding of who God is and his highness, his holiness, that he's high and lifted up, and then the self in respect to his position. You know, that's one of the things that I think always strikes me about humility is that it's this idea and this acknowledgement that God is high and lifted up. And so while we don't come too hard on ourselves merely because we want to create a pity party, it's a recognition that. Aside from the mediator work of Christ to to stand in the presence of God would to be literally torn asunder by the molecule because his holiness cannot be, or rather, I would say our sinfulness cannot be in this presence of the one who is perfect in majesty and in righteousness, in intellect, and in in comprehension and creativity. We cannot exist in that space apart from this mediated work of Christ the beautiful. Be editorial, like benevolent distance, so to speak, that Christ creates so that we might come into the presence of God, as Hebrew says, running as it were, coming in, not haphazardly, but purposefully into the throne room of God because. And his holiness. He's a way to, he's made a way for him to be just and justifier. That is incredible. Loved ones. It's beautiful. And that is all. Again, I think just underneath this parable, it's starting with this sense of humility has brought all of this into play, and it's a critical part of God's design and plan. There's a condescension, but I think even here, underneath that condescension is something about humility. That is worth discussing. And there is, the question again, is God humble. So put it another way. Humility, I think embraces the reality that you and I. We're not God. You know, pride led to humanity's fall when Adam and Eve desired to be like God, which is contrary to his command and humility would have obeyed his command, which is what we'll see when we come to Christ and especially Christ's work. So. [00:15:06] Christ's Humility and Obedience [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: It strikes me then, and this is why I threw out this question, is like, is God humble? It's kind of a setup, I'll be honest, because all of I said so far, if you are keeping score at home, you probably should be drawing out then that I'm essentially saying that humility is a creaturely virtue. Actually, it's not just me. A lot of people have said that, a lot of the old ones. I postulate that, that when we think about humility explicitly and in a narrow context, that's a creaturely virtue. It's a posture of. All of who we are, our soul, our body, our life, our activities, our families, our possessions. It's acknowledgement in those things and embracing that the goodness of God and that he is the one who controls and commands all things, all of our destiny, which means. This question is God humble? It is kind of like linguistically and theologically tricky, like not for the sake of creating a tricky question for like a part of the game, but the the answer is in a sense, no, but not because God, I think is the opposite of what we'd consider humble. He's not arrogant, he's not prideful. Rather, humility is a creaturely virtue and he's God. So we need to be again, in this appropriate separation of our state and who God is, recognizing that those are two very different things. All of this though, I think, contributes to moving us in a direction of understanding, well, what does this mean then? For Jesus Christ, the God man, the one who humbled himself. You've probably been screaming the entire time. Will you get to that? What about that? And I think that is the critical question that is behind everything that we're reading about. In these parables. In other words, why is Jesus this way? What has brought him into this particular place to say these particular things to these people? We talked last time about how one of the things that's remarkable is that all of these sinners, like the down out, the broken, the marginalized, the pariahs, they were all drawn to Jesus teaching, not even drawn. I mean, there's distinction not drawn to the Fara teaching, to the rules of the law, but drawn to Jesus, almost magnetically coming to him. Compelled as it were, to be in his presence, to hear the things he was saying. Captivate, I mean, can you imagine yourself there? Not necessarily there in that environment, but captivated again by the teachings of Jesus, how good they are, how true they are, how incredible they are. And so I think it's possible for us to marvel then at that remarkable word then from the impossible, Paul, when he says that Christ humbled himself in Philippians two, eight. And no, I think that that confirms our definition above of humanity, uh, of. Humility rather as being something in humanity, of being a, a creaturely virtue in that the eternal son first became a man. That's what Paul says in verse seven, and then humbled himself in verse eight. And I'm gonna submit to you that this is really the one of the most epic parts of the gospel that. This is the only way we can get this kind of humility, this humbling of God is if first he comes to undertake the creaturely virtue so that then he himself or become rather, lemme say it this way, I'm getting too excited, loved ones. It's rather that we first must have God become a creature, so to speak, not emptying himself as we'll. Talk about. Of, of his godness, but instead taking on this flesh so that he might humble himself be to be like his children who must be humbled and in fact will ultimately be humbled in the ES eschaton no matter what they believe. And so the verb Paul uses to capture the action of the incarnation is, is not humbled here first, but it's this idea of emptied. So again, Philippians two is verse six and seven. Paul writes, being in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of man. And so this movement. [00:18:59] The Incarnation and Humility [00:18:59] Jesse Schwamb: From heaven to earth, which if you're listening to this in more or less real or New York time, as we're coming into the season of the calendar where we celebrate the incarnation, again, I've been thinking so much about this beautiful gift of the incarnation, and I've been thinking about that in light of Jesus coming to seek and to save the lost and this real heart to hearts kind of way where he's speaking the truth to the people who need to hear it most, and they're drawn magnetically to him, into his teaching. And so that movement. From Heaven to earth is an emptying. It's the divine son emptying himself, not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world. I think a lot, honestly, especially this time of year, I think a lot about strange things like Jesus has fingernails and blood vessels and eyeballs and hair and toes. And shins and knee bones, you know, all of these things. Because to me it's this incomprehensible reality that God loves me so much that he would send his only son to be a creature, but in a way that was limited to the same creatureliness that I have. And then would forever, in a way, in his glorified state, identify still with that creature. And only in that process could he come and humble himself. I mean, that's incredible. I mean. Could not have grasped like the divine privilege of not being subjected to the rules and realities of creation. But instead, he empties himself by taking our humanity. He was emptying not by subtraction of identity, but by addition of humanity. This is the taking, the taking on, and this allows him then to become obedient and in that obedience, that passive and act of obedience. What we find is that Christ is able to say these very things that are exemplified in the parables, that this is the height of God, and he says, it is in your midst. The kingdom of God is here and I am the kingdom, and it's all because he has come in such a way. To empty himself again, where that was not a subtraction of divinity, but addition of humanity. It is an amazing and glorious truth. It's the thing upon which like turns all of salvation and all of the world that God would do this and do it so completely that again, it's finalized, it's complete, it's already done. So first, Jesus became a man. And then as a man came the ly virtue, he humbled himself. And Paul confirms what we learned about humility. In the negative example, I think in Pharaoh of Pharaoh in Nexus 10 and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [00:21:49] Christ's Obedience to Death [00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so. Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people. And those two things come together and coalesce in the gospel because we know that righteousness and holiness is completely vouched, safe to God. It's under his purview and his control, and it comes to his people when he draws close. That's how it was in the Old Testament, and that's how it was in the New Testament. And so as Christ in human form is coming and drawing near to his people, he's preaching this good news message that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood will have salvation and eternal life in him So intimately wrapped up that again, he hasn't just come. In the Christmas season to make naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him, and therefore, because he's the indestructible life, your life and mine cannot be destroyed either. I. So it is this amazing mark of the fullness of humanity and identification with us that he didn't just come on special terms. You know, I often think it's not like God on a deck chair laid out looking down as a creation separate as he were, as it were, just observing and kind of more or less interjecting here and there. It wasn't Jesus coming at. Arms length, distance. It wasn't God snatching him up when the frustrations of our limits or the pains of our world fell him. He had the full human experience. He was all in fully human and body mind. Hearts will and surroundings. Fully human in our finitude and all of this frustrations that we share that are just part of our lives, fully human in. Vulnerability to the worst of the civil world can work. Clearly that's manifested in his ign Ammonious death. Nor was he at the bottom spared the very essence of being human. He was accountable to God. Even there, that humility is incredible, that he himself learned, undertook, became obedient so that he would be accountable to God a father. Hebrews five celebrates this. Exactly. I love this set of words. Although Jesus was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered and being made perfect. He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. And if he is our first brother, then the calling that we have is to do exactly the same, to come before him, to obey him and to see him as the one who is high and lift it up. But that self humbling, that humiliation doesn't just stop with obedience. And that's why the apostle keeps going. It says to the point of death, how far did it take him? How far did he go? How far was he willing to go? Volitionally all the way. To the point of death. And Christ obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else. You know, of course, even in the garden when he's praying and the disciples are with the in your shot and he asked that the cup might pass, we might reasonably ask what other option was there. And so here even Christ says. Even to the point of death, forsaking all other things, real obedience endures in obedience, which is a really difficult thing. And so I'm grateful because my obedience is peace wise, it is part and parcel, it is weak, it is feeble. And instead we have Christ who is transferred all of his righteousness into our account. And all of that righteousness is because of real obedience that he undertook, endured in obedience. And so Christ did not begin obedience and then surrender disobedience once the greatest threats loomed even in the garden. There he again. He is coming before the father and he is continuing to obey. He's humbled. So I think God does indeed command our humility and one of the ways that he can command that it, well, there's many ways. First and foremost, by fiat, he's God and his character demands it. The second way is that, again, coming back to these parables. Finally, and lastly, we see that Christ is exhibiting great humility in the message that he's bringing forward and all of this, that he comes forward to save and all of the seeking that he undertakes, he conspires with God in humility to bring his children. Into the fold. There was no other way without this incredible humility of Christ, this humility that shows us that it's not denigrating of humanity, but it's God's image shining in its fullness. That this is the very thing he comes to restore and to humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather it is. Pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity to humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made. And Christ exemplifies that very thing. And I submit to you loved ones. It's that very humility. This is what I buried the lead on last week. It's that very humility that draws the sinner. Because we all have a master. We are all slaves to something, which I know is really unpopular to say, but hear me out. We are all stuck on something. We are all bound into something. It's just like we say with worship, it's not whether we not, we choose to worship. It's what we worship and we are what we worship. All those things are true. All those cliches stand and if they're true, then the opposite is true and that is that we're all bound to something. The question is how good and kind is your master. The thing in which you are bound to the thing which you choose to serve and submit to how life giving is that thing. And the humility of Christ clarifies that not all of our hum lings are owning to our own sin that Christ had. None, none. Yet he humbled himself. Sometimes repentance is the first step in self humbling. Other times it's not. Our self humbling may often come in response to our exposure to sin, but even in Christ sinless as he was. He heeded the father's call to humble himself. And so I think for us, as we think about what it means then to go and study these parables, we first even need to humble our understanding, our cognizance, our reasoning, our logic, that the scripture as given by God as his very word to us, stand so far above us. That while we study it and we interrogate it, that we dare not stand in opposition to it because it is the high and lofty command of God for us because he's good and his love endures forever. So I hope that as we continue to build into this next step of looking at this final lost parable, that we can all continue to just appreciate and boast in the God man who in his humility, makes the gospel possible, and that in his humility shows. A greater sense of what it means to have the abundant life. And we have to take Jesus at his word, loved ones when he says like He's come, not just to give life, but to give it in abundance that that is a real quantity, and that the humility of Christ in his life and death and resurrection testifies to one of God's clearest and most memorable promises in all of scripture. That again, he humbles the proud and he exalts the humble. So it was with Christ. He humbled himself and God has highly exalted him. I remember reading John Owen writing about. Justification and Christ's time of suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and his preparation for the cross and inevitably his, his forsaking, his forsakenness on that cross and how Jesus himself entrusted his justification to God the Father, which I think is a. A, a conception that will make your mind do a somersault. I mean, think about it long enough that even Jesus himself in learning obedience and taking upon himself the full measure of what it was to sit under the law and then to obey it perfectly, was still going to his death, knowing that he was gonna be the greatest sinner who ever lived yet was gonna be the one without sin, having committed any, that he himself was entrusting all of that he had accomplished and who he was. To God the father, to justify him and his resurrection on the third day loved ones is proof positive that he is the savior. That we all long for that in our sickness right now, as in our world, as all these things groan, as they all say, in some way, maratha, Lord, come quickly, that we are acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the one. Who in his complete humility satisfied the law of God to such degree that he was justified before God the father, and raised TriNet on the third day as proof positive that he is in fact the Savior, the chosen one, the Messiah, the first brother, the firstborn among the dead, the serpent crusher. The one who will come and redeem all of his people. So I hope there's something in there for you that's an encouragement that lifts up as if they were even possible to do more than they already are. That lifts up these parables that we've been talking about, that it's not just, of course, that Jesus on this mission because. He's full of love. His love predated all of this. Now, this is why we keep coming back to, uh, all Christians at all times, in all heirs. John three 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Now whosoever should believe in him. Now, all the believing ones should have eternal life, and that eternal life is purchased by the blood of Christ and through his humility, but also it is a, a stark reminder that love always leads to giving. And here we have God the father, giving his son Unreservedly for us, becoming Creature Lee, so that he might undertake the humility of the creature. And in so doing fully, not just, I would say identify with who we are, but become like us in every a. Way yet without sin, which is why can we rejoice that even now in the sound of my voice or yours, wherever you are, there is Jesus Christ in Heavenly Rumble. Before the God the Father interceding perfectly as this incredible representative, as the scriptures are, he says, as this best of all, the high priests, the perfect one. Who is ushering us in to bend the ear, as it were of God because of what he's accomplished on our behalf. Man, that is good news. And if it's not good news and you don't think it is, you better check your pulse. Check it right now. [00:33:20] Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser [00:33:20] Jesse Schwamb: So you need to come back. And listen to the next episode because we are, I mean, I think assuming everybody's healthy, Lord willing, we're gonna talk about the Prodigal Son and really wrap up this culmination of the lost parables. But of course, you know that I'm contractually obligated to say to you all. That you don't have to just wait to interact until the next podcast. You can come hang out with us, and I gotta say it again for all the people in the back. The way that you do that is this little app called Telegram. You might be using Telegram already to message with your friends and your family. If so, you might not have known that. There's also a little group within Telegram for the Reform Brotherhood. Everybody who listens, everybody wants to hang out and talk about theology or life share prayer requests. It's all happening right there, and I promise you, you will not be disappointed if you come check it out. So you're probably saying enough already. Tell me how to do that. Alright, here's what you do. Get a piece of paper, stop the car, put down the backhoe for a second, and listen up. You go to your favorite browser and you type in t me slash reform brotherhood. T. Me Reform Brotherhood. Come hang out with us. Come talk about the episode, and until then, everybody stay. Well keep your head down. Don't list sick sickness night people. But remember, even if it does, you have this great high priest who endured obedience, in obedience to bring you abundant life, to identify with you, to resonate with you, to give you the love of God, and to finally conquer sin, death, and the devil. I say loved ones, so until next time, you know what to do. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological underpinnings of Jesus' parables in Luke 15. With co-host Tony Arsenal absent due to illness, Jesse takes listeners through the "deleted scenes" – insights and reflections that often occur off-mic – about the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin. These stories reveal God's relentless pursuit of sinners and set the stage for the upcoming discussion of the Prodigal Son parable. Jesse unpacks how these parables demonstrate not just God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active seeking of them – a grace that doesn't merely find us willing but makes us willing. This episode serves as a theological bridge, slowing listeners down to fully appreciate the scandal of God's love before diving into Jesus' most famous parable. Key Takeaways Context Matters: The parables of Luke 15 are Jesus' response to the Pharisees' grumbling about Him receiving sinners and eating with them. This historical context reveals the radical nature of Christ's ministry compared to the religious establishment. Grace Makes Us Willing: Drawing from Thomas Watson's quote, Jesse explains that God's grace doesn't find us willing to repent but actually creates that willingness in us – a foundational concept in Reformed theology. The Initiative of God: In all three parables, God is portrayed as the active seeker. The shepherd searches for the sheep, the woman sweeps for the coin, demonstrating that salvation begins with God's initiative, not ours. The Scandalous Love of Jesus: Christ's approach to sinners appeared scandalous to religious leaders because it violated their understanding of who deserved God's attention. Christ's Sympathetic Identification: Jesus doesn't just save us from a distance but enters into our suffering, identifying with us in our pain while remaining sinless. Heaven's Joy Over Salvation: The parables reveal God's extraordinary joy over each individual sinner who is saved, showing that the entire cost of redemption would be worth it even for just one person. From Death to Life: Drawing from Colossians 2, Jesse emphasizes that Jesus didn't come to make bad people good but to make dead people alive, canceling our certificate of debt through His cross. The Scandal of Divine Initiative The religious establishment of Jesus' day operated on the principle that religion was for "good people" – those who could maintain moral standards and ritual purity. When tax collectors and sinners were drawn to Jesus, the Pharisees were scandalized not just by Jesus' association with them, but by the possibility that these "hopeless cases" might be included in God's kingdom. This context sets up the revolutionary nature of Jesus' parables. As Jesse explains, "Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help pariahs in that way, and so it did no good then to command the good people to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities." What makes Christianity utterly unique is that it begins not with human initiative but with divine pursuit. God in Christ actively seeks those who are lost, not waiting for them to clean themselves up or take the first step. This complete reversal of religious expectations demonstrates why these parables were and remain so radical. Grace That Transforms Our Unwillingness The Reformed theological principle that Jesse highlights through Thomas Watson's quote – "Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing" – strikes at the heart of human pride and misconception about salvation. Left to ourselves, we don't merely lack the ability to come to God; we actively resist Him. Jesse elaborates: "How good of God that He would send His Son unto us while we were yet His enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against Him." The wonder of grace is not just that God forgives when we repent, but that He creates the very repentance within us. This is why the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to find the one – the sheep doesn't find its own way home. This is the beating heart of Reformed soteriology: salvation is entirely of the Lord, from first to last, which makes it secure and gives all glory to God alone. Memorable Quotes "God seeking us is the foundation of seeking Him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes us willing. That is the Reformed theology." "He's not this like sinless Superman. What I mean by that is... it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us. But the beauty of these parables is... Christ puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save is brought into our lives." "Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How good is that sentence?" Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: It reminds me of this quote from. Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes. Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him. Welcome to episode 473 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for Lost Sheep and Lost Coins. Hey, brothers and sisters, you're listening to another episode of The Reformed Brotherhoodhood, but you've probably already noticed. That we are missing my co-host and my brother Tony, who regrettably was taken up ill this week, and so in his convalescence, I'm coming at you with a solo episode and what are you probably asking is worth listening to in the solo episode? Well, I have a proposal for you. So often what happens is when Tony and I sit down. And we record a beautiful, robust conversation, the definitive kind of talk on some topic. We shut off the microphone. And then of course he and I continue to talk to one another. And what often happens is somehow, like a second or a third episode basically starts because we go back to what we were talking about before and we have some kind of new insight or something new that we wanted to say that didn't make it into the episode. [00:01:56] Deleted Scenes and Parables Overview [00:01:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this episode is gonna be about some of those deleted scenes if you were, were like the things that. We talked about, but didn't make it into some of our recent conversations about the parables, these three parables of the Lost Sheep, the lost coin, and now The Lost Son. Now I know what you're thinking, and I made a promise to Tony. We're not gonna get to the Prodigal son on this episode. That is something he and I are looking forward to discussing with one another and with you. So that will be next week. But on this little episode, I thought it was best to slow down just for a second and to give you, again, some of those things we've been talking about as we've been thinking about lostness, and to set that up as a precursor to wet your appetite just a little bit for this biggest of all of the parables, maybe the most well-known parable in the entire universe. The parable of the prodigal son, which again, is coming for you, but not on this one. Don't even get me started. How dare you. Now, normally if this were a traditional episode, you would hear that ous segue from me that goes something like this. Hey Tony, are you affirming with or denying again, something on this episode? And because it's just me, it'd be super weird to do something atenol with just myself. [00:03:17] Affirmations and Community Engagement [00:03:17] Jesse Schwamb: I figured it is high time for me to give you a particular affirmation, so here's what I'm gonna do. I am affirming with you like you brother and sister listening. I truly am affirming with you because as the year draws to close, I was thinking just again, how grateful I am for everybody who hangs out, everybody who listens, everybody who gives to the reformed brotherhood, because we all do it together. Nothing happens by accident. Nothing shows up in your podcast feed without somebody taking care of the attendant costs, without people lending their voices, without conversation around it. And if you're wondering, well, who are these other people? Because I thought it was just you too. There are brothers and sisters from all over the world who are looking to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ, wanting to process theology and wanting to do so in a way that makes us better and more obedient toward our loving savior. And in serving those around us. And the good news is you also can just connect with us and with them. And the best way to do that, as we've said so many times before, but I'm gonna say it one more time for everybody in the back, is you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just a messaging app, and we've carved out just a little corner of that app so that people that are listening to the podcast can come hang out and talk about. Whatever you want. So the way to do that is go to any browser, pick your favorite one, and just type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood, and that link will get you there. You can also do another thing. You can go to reform brotherhood.com. The podcast does have a website, believe it or not, and on that website, reform brotherhood.com live, all of the other episodes we have ever recorded. And so you can search those by topic about what's going on in them. You can find all kinds of different things to listen to. You'll also find a link there if in fact you would like to also support the podcast. So we are so grateful for so many brothers and sisters. Who have decided, you know what? I've been blessed by the conversations by the community, and I wanna make sure that it remains that way free of charge to everyone. And they're the ones along with us that are shouldering that burden, and I'm so grateful. So you can find a link there if in fact you are so inclined to give so. Brothers and sisters, I'm affirming with you it's time that I did that, and I'm so grateful for all of you. And again, the purpose of this little episode is to spend a little bit of time getting ready, getting after it. [00:05:42] The Parables' Context and Significance [00:05:42] Jesse Schwamb: For this, the biggest of all, the granddaddy of all the parables, the parable of the prodigal son and I, as I was thinking about this episode, it occurred to me it's a bit like, I don't know where you live. Where I live, there are these signs on the road that can script the speed at which you can travel on those roads at least legally. Right, and I was thinking about this as I was driving the other day, that I have a road with a speed limit. Say it's 50 miles an hour, but there is a bend in this road. And on that bend as I approach it, there's another sign of a different color that's more suggestive and it's a lower speed limit. It's as if to say, listen, I know you can travel at 50, but what might be wise right now is to slow it down so that you don't veer off the road because. As you take this turn, what's best practice, what's most safe for you is to slow down for a second. And I was kind of thinking about that as we were going into these parables. We wanna get to the parable of the prodigal sun. It's dramatic, it's dynamic. There's all kinds of lovely details in it. It's exciting. We've got people now finally, whereas we had intimate objects in agriculture, now we're getting to human family dynamics and interrelations and all this activity. And it's good. We should wanna get there, but I'm kind of feeling like it's a bit like that sign that says, you know what? We might wanna slow down for a second before you turn into this parable. Why don't you take this curve at a slightly slower speed? And so hence this little tiny episode to bring to you again, some of those deleted scenes. Some of the things that Tony, I've been talking about that never have quite made it into all of the recordings, because they probably happened before afterwards and the recording button had already been disabled. So. Let me give you the thing that I think, Tony, I've been talking about a lot and we've definitely been thinking about, and that is again, going back to like, why did these parables even come up? Like was it Jesus volition just to start talking about this stuff? Why is it that there are three versions of it? Why are they kind of escalating and growing in magnitude? There's clearly a crescendo coming. Hopefully you're hearing it. Like it's picking up, the pace is moving, the volume is increasing, and the stakes are getting higher and higher and higher. So what gives why all of this? And I think we gotta go back to Luke 15. Of course. We gotta look at just that first verse because to me. [00:08:00] The Heart of Reformed Theology [00:08:00] Jesse Schwamb: In Luke 15, this is some of like the best comfort food of the gospel, don't you think? I mean, in this, it's like the warmest, richest passage, almost all the gospels in terms of the presentation of this really good news. And you know, these stories aren't just sentimental tales. They actually reveal the beating heart of reform, theology, the beating, passionate love. And heart of Christ for his people. This truth that God is the one who seeks, saves, and rejoices over sinners. And so we gotta start in context because it's precisely because of that beating heart, that initiative, that volition, that Christ brings all of this up, but he brings it up in response to something that's happening. And that's where we get in verse one. Now, the tax collectors and sinners we're all drawing near to him. I think sometimes we run, at least I do way too past. Fast past that verse, the tax collectors and the sinners we're all drawing near to him. It should be the kind of thing like talk about things that make you go, Hmm, why? Why are we getting that now? That specific indicator here that they're drawing near. And then not only that it's being told to us, but of course what was it about Christ that drew these people? Because traditionally there, there was a lot of religion happening in Jesus' day. In some ways something special and different is happening here, that while the religion was not drawing these people, that the, the superstructures there, the participants, the leaders were not drawing this crowd by design. Instead, they're drawn to Jesus. There's something not just in the teaching but who he is, and Luke tells us tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him. He goes on to say, and the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. As a result of this, Jesus tells then these three parables. It's almost like Jesus essentially saying to the Pharisees, listen, you're accusing me of receiving sinners. Yes, you are exactly right, but I want you to know why. What a beautiful thing for him to explain and then to explain it in these thrice kind of implications and stories and metaphors. It's a beautiful thing. It reminds me of this quote from. Period in Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes. Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him. And it's an incredible thing. It's far better, not that grace finds us willing, but that grace makes us willing, that grace compels us because we do not even know what's the best for ourselves. And so here again, Jesus tells us these three parables, these three stories to convey this incredible point. And that is that there is surely hope for all. God's love extends even to these sinners. That the glorious truth, that glorious truth shines out in all of these parables, and it's meant to be impressed upon us in like increasing degree that God's amazing love is both in its scope and its reach, and especially contrast. The ideas of then these. Pharisees and the scribes on this subject, he comes at them hard with these series of events and these stories. Tony, I've been talking about that a lot. Like we just can't get beyond that. I can't even, I wish I could comprehend it in a more deep way. You know, the first two parables are, it's dying to impress upon us that the love of God. Is this activity. It is effort and fire and reach and going after and passion and love, and it seeks out the sinner and it takes like infinite trouble in order to find him and rescue him. It's willing to pursue all to love, all, to take up the cost of all, and then to show the joy of God and all the hosts of heaven when even just one. Soul is saved. So it's not even this massive effort undertaking, which weighs the benefits and the costs and says, well, it's gonna be worth it in the end because the dividends earned from making this investment will be far greater than the investment itself. And what God does in Christ is he sends his son not. Reservedly, not like arms reach, so he could snatch him back up when harm beel him, but he gives him so unreservedly in passive and active obedience so that the sinner might be saved. Even just one and one, just one is saved. All of heaven rejoices there. There is a full consummate expression of happiness and completeness and joy of just one. Being saved and brought into God's kingdom. In other words, if that entire cost were for just one, God would still be willing to bear it. Jesus would still come in his active and past obedience to accomplish that very thing. And it's all of this that's moving us, of course, to the parable of the prodigal son, but I cannot even get there. Don't, don't even try to get me to go there. I know you're all doing it. So there is this great and incredible outstanding point. [00:13:20] The Scandalous Love of Jesus [00:13:20] Jesse Schwamb: It's something else that Tony had been talking about is that there's a simplicity, of course in all of these accounts, but there's also like this great complexity, especially because of this context. And I think as well what we've been really. Settling on in our conversations outside of the podcast is just how scandalous this makes Jesus seem and appear like that Jesus does appear or he should appear to us like too good to be true, too loving, too kind, too recklessly spend thrift. And again, that's what we're gonna find in the next parable, but that that is for real and it doesn't make him weak. It might be an expression of meekness, a power under control, but it shows that the humility of God in Christ is really beyond our ability to comprehend in reach that is so thorough and so full, and so rich and so warm that Christ is, as it were, experiencing a great, great joy. In the sinner coming and being saved, and him identifying with the sinner to such a degree and going out and finding what was lost to bring it back in. That this act of even when we come to him in repentance over and over again, we do not exhaust him because so great is his love for us. That he's coming to save continually and always, that he doesn't have to save over and over again. There's no additional sacrifice that's necessary, but that, that sacrifice is so great, so grand, so complete that it continues to bring us back into the fold to save us as it were. Over and over again to restore us onto fellowship with him to restore the harmony of our relationship while never having to rescind or to rebuild again the initial identity that we have in Christ that was accomplished on the cross, but that this just seems too good to be true. It just seems so miraculous that my own sin. As it continues to compound day after day, that is like continue to do the things I don't wanna do, as Paul said. But the very things I don't wanna do, those are the things that I do. It seems like this. At some point God would just become thoroughly exhausted with, and that's not the case. And these parables prove that to us over and over. And over again. So this very context and setting of these parables shows. I think all of this like perfectly, and Tony and I have just been conversing about that a lot. We keep going back to it. Maybe we're a little bit afraid that if we keep talking about it, you're gonna be like, you already said that, say something different. But we can't help. We're really come back to this and. Again, I'm drawn to this line that these sinners, the publicans, if you're totally down with the King James version that they drew near unto him, they came to him. There was something about him that they were almost like compelled or constrained as, as Paul says, like God's love compels us or constraints us. That they themselves were feeling that almost this magnetism toward Christ to want to be in his presence toward what, hear what he has to say, and what a beautiful setup that they're being drawn into him. He's eating with them. He's doing this. Most intimate thing, spending time with the me, my shoulders, with 'em, and of course the Pharisees, the scribes, the religious leaders, they see this and it's recorded that they're grumbling. They're complaining, right, man, what an adventure in missing the point. But that's there for us. I really think to pick up here as we try to understand what these parables mean, again, it's not just like the teaching. The teaching is so good, it's so rich and juicy and, and full of so many things for us to consume and to understand and to meditate on and to metabolize. As well that we can just quickly mix Miss, like this incredible perspective of like the context of which it took place, like the literal environment and the circumstances of life, which in some ways were the progenitor, or at least were the very thing, the fertile soil, which gave Christ the opportunity to plant. Then these seeds of the story and what I'm raised by is they felt that. I think these sinners felt that there was a chance even for them, that like in these man's teachings, there was a new and fresh hope, and even the Pharisees and the scribes saw precisely that thing. I think that's why, that's why they're complaining, and they had regarded these sinners as being so utterly and entirely behind, beyond hope and redemption. I mean, that was really the Orthodox view. It was to say like, listen, they're so hopeless that they were to be entirely ignored. Religion was for good people. It had nothing to do with bad people. You know, unfortunately, that's so much I think of how people view even Christianity today, that this is a club for people who have it mostly together or wanna have it together or think that they can get it together. Religion is for the good people and it should have nothing to do with the bad people. And it certainly had nothing to. To give these sinners just in the in, in our own day. Religion, by and in of itself, has nothing to give anybody, certainly nothing to give those who are hurt. Who are feeling hopeless, who are down and out, who are the abused, who have been written off, who are marginalized, who are pariahs, who feel that the guilt is overwhelming in their lives, who have all of these regrets. Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help you oriah in that way, and so it did no good then. To command the good people, to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities. Religion, even in Jesus day, didn't offer that. And so you can see then that the Pharisees of the scribes were annoyed by our Lord's teaching. Anyone who saw any hope for this public or sinner must to them be entirely wrong and a blasphemer, because that's not who religion was for. And yet the sinner here. I mean, can you only imagine loved one like the sinner here in seeing Jesus? And being with Jesus, and they were drawn to him by understanding that there was some kind of new and fresh hope for them. And that's what's delivered in these parables to us. That how scandalous love of God is, is that from the jump, those who are with him recognize the scandal and said, this is so otherworldly that it seems like. This could be for me. And that is exactly why Jesus came, right? He came to seek and to save those who are lost. The point is was not how he could be received back, but whether he could be received back at all, whether he deserved anything at all. And so the sinner coming and saying that, is it possible that even for me. There is hope that even for me, there could be restoration with God. That for all the things which I already know, that I'm far from God, that I see him as the one who has these incredible and high in standards that I have transgressed, is it possible that there is hope for me? You know, just this morning on our Lord's day, because that's time of year, one of the songs that we sang was Joy to the World, and I was thinking even as we were preparing to sing that what, what other people conceive of that? Him. You know, we might rightly ask, is there any joy in our world today? Is there any hope? Is there any peace? And the answer is, yes, there is. It's in Jesus. You know that he is the answer. But we sometimes need to start saying, what is the question? And the question is, who can come before God? What can I do to be saved? That is the question. And these sinners at least understood that. They're drawn to Jesus, they're drawn to come before him. And so this stands out to me. It's something that we've been talking about a lot, this possibility of a new start, a new beginning for all, even for the most desperate, the ones that were so far off that they recognized that they couldn't probably even turn around. You know, sometimes like we colloquial say, listen, all you have to do is turn around and we use that language because we're tying it with this idea of repentance, you know, to turn. Toward God to to forsake that which is our natural selves by the power of the Holy Spirit and to come back into the family of Christ. And I think that is good, but I think the sinner also recognizes that the only prayer that we have is that Jesus have mercy on me. Have mercy on me that that's the right place to start. And I see in this, this idea, of course that's clearly articulated by our savior, that God is doing all the things that we are so lost. We're like that lost sheep that's just gone astray. That we desperately need help because we can't find our way back. I'm not sure we can even barely turn around. And I think if. What Thomas Watson is saying is correct. Then the beauty of Grace is that it does make us willing because I, for one, would go kicking and screaming all the way. But the fact that it makes us willing, it makes us come to our senses, which I have a feeling is something we will explore in a future, future episode, but that God is setting forward all of that initiative, you know. I like that John Rowan, John Owen also writes the sheep strays and knows not how to return, but Christ the good shepherd will lose none of his flock, but fetch them home. I love this idea. That's from his expedition on Hebrews. Actually, it's not even about this particular passage. The sheep does not seek the shepherd. The shepherd seeks the sheep. So even in this narrative, we see all these beautiful elements that. You know, Tony, I talked about before this total depravity, but it's just a narrative form that there's no one that seeks after God. And so what we find is that God is bringing forward election, choosing his own. He's bringing about definitive atonement, he's saving his own, and then there's a sexual calling he's bringing to himself his own. It's like the Westminster Larry Catechism says in. Uh, 59 Christ, by his intercession answers the demands of those for whom he has died and for them only. And all of this then brings about this like great and incredible rejoicing in heaven. I think, not just because it's like, it's great to find lost things, but it's also great to see that God has done the very thing that he said he was going to do, that he's the one that's, that he's the author and perfecter of salvation. And so God delights. In the work of redemption. So this is like the thing that I think is incredibly scandalous. [00:23:01] Christ's Compassion and Solidarity [00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: This is the thing that Tony and I have talked a lot about, like privately, and that is how much Jesus has compassion and the ability, the true ability to sympathize. And that in these I, I think like underneath. All of these little parables and stories. The only reason there is an action of love. That love always leads to giving. Love always leads to going. Finding love always leads to drawing in that the only reason that is happening is because of this incredible ability of Christ to sympathize with us. You know, the burden of these verses, the anchor of these verses is Christ sheer an amazing solidarity with all of his people. All our natural intuitions tell us that Jesus is with us on our side present helping. When life is going well. It's easy to see that. It seems very clear, but in this text, we're finding that those who are drawn are the ones whose life are decidedly not going great, not doing that well. And so the opposite is being. Presented for us in this kinda stark relief. It's in our weakness that Jesus sympathizes with us. It's in our pain and our own destructive behaviors that he comes, not because he himself has experienced any sin, but because he is a savior whose heart is wide open to go after and to embrace those who are in that state, which seems incredible. Scandalous, like in our pain, Jesus is pained in our suffering. He feels the suffering as his own, even though it isn't. He's not this like invincible divinity. Well, lemme say it this way. It's not that his invincible divinity is threatened, but in the sense that his heart is feelingly drawn into our distress. Is that a word? Feelingly, like that. He literally wants to, he feels himself into our distress and, and in that doing so his joy is increased because he's identifying with his children because he is coming close to them because he is going after them. His love leads to that kind of feeling ness, so it's. It is not only that Jesus can reveal, relieve us and reveal, I suppose, but relieve us from our troubles like a doctor prescribing medicine. It's also that before any relief comes before, like a day of restoration comes before like that day of the shackles falling off before that time when the breakthrough happens, he's with us in our troubles like a doctor who has endured the same disease. That's what's wild. That's what makes all of this so different than any other religious worldview, than any other kind of conscription of how to think about the world and any other philosophy. And he's a sinless man, but he's not this like sinless Superman. And what I mean by that is I think some of you heard, if you've listened for any length of time, you know that there's this song. That is a children's song. That is something like Jesus is my superhero, and I always bristle that a little bit because it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us that we want all of this power. Of course we want this. Alien power to come and to restore our lives, to intercede, to do the thing that we cannot do for ourselves. But the beauty of these parables is the thing that we cannot do for ourselves is still the thing that Christ puts, puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save. Is brought into our lives. He comes and saves us because he knows us. And to know us is to become like us. And to become like us is to be humiliated, to come and to humble himself and to condescend to such degree that he is again, like this doctor who can heal. But before any of that comes, he's with us in the troubles. This is Emmanuel, this is God with us, that he is the one that comes and stands shoulder to shoulder with us in that pain that feels and empathizes and comes and ministers to us in that pain, and takes great joy in doing so. And in fact, his joy, as it were, is enlarged in doing that. [00:27:09] The Joy of Salvation [00:27:09] Jesse Schwamb: Our tendency, I think, is to feel intuitively that the more difficult life gets, the more that we're alone. We sink further into pain, we sink further into felt isolation, and these passages correct us. Our pain never outstrips what he himself shares in. That is what's remarkable. That is what drives and fuels, I think, in a way, this passionate heart of Christ towards us and then results in this kind of unbelievable, really loved ones. Incredible, outstanding, inconceivable good news that Christ has saved us, that he would come and in the midst of our great ugliness and sinfulness and unkindness and selfishness, that he would not only identify with that and say, you who are broken, I delight. To repair you, but that we receive then not just a restoration, but then all of the benefits that Christ himself has earned that are due him for his obedience. These also get credited to us. I think it's impossible for me not to conclude this little conversation that we're having without going to Colossians chapter two, which again, I've said this before, but as somebody who's worked in finance and banking, all of my adult life. Actually, I dunno why I would say it that way, because you really can't, shouldn't be working in finance or banking as a child. But for all of my life I just find this language so resonant. And if you're a person that's borrowed money for any length of time or maybe basically just worked in the world and had to endure, if that's your word, or interact with finance than you are probably gonna resonate with this. This too. But this is. An expression of what God has done for us in Christ. And I wanna begin reading in verse 13. And you being dead in your transgressions. Oh, man. Uh, sorry, I, I hate to do this. I often don't like to do this, but you're just gonna get my commentary, the Jesse commentary in between these in, in the midst of these verses because I, I should probably best practice to read the whole thing for y'all. But I just, I am dumbfounded. I keep getting dumbstruck by these words and thinking about these in light of, uh, the incarnation and of Christ coming and these parables that he's teaching us that are just showing like as if he's just opening up his heart to us, and I can't, but help but stop and pause and say, are, are you hearing this too? And you being dead in your transgressions. This is so horrible, isn't it? Like who wants this to be true of them? But this is, this is my story and your story that we were dead and it's not a who done it mystery. You know what killed us? Our transgressions, yours and mines our own work. That the minimum wage of sin is death and that your transgressions killed you and that you were in that state. You were in that state actually from the beginning, from the time that you were born. You were dead and you were dead in your transgressions. That is super bad. I mean, that's the understatement of this entire conversation. It, it's horrible. Uh, I can't think of anything worse. It's true of all us. So is it possible that it could get worse? It does actually. And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, that is like you were not just, it would be worse enough that of course, like you the Law of Christ, but you love to do it. That was your jam in your flesh. The flesh that you wanted to embrace, the selfishness that was who you are, apart from Christ, which the Bible tells us is the opposite of being circumcised brought into the family. You were far away as far away as possible. You were so far out of the government that you were uncircumcised. That's who you were. You were dead. You were dead because of your transgressions, and then you were so far outside of the family of God, there was no hope for you. In your own self, there's nothing you could do to make a way. There was nothing that you could do to write yourself. You were dead in your transgressions, uncircumcision of your flesh. Sit on that for a second, and you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions. So again, this is. Incredible. Not just that you would be forgiven, but that you'd be made alive in Christ. There's this falsity out there somewhere. Again, this is what religion teaches you, teaches us that Jesus came to make bad people good. I mean, that's really what the Pharisees were after in their own lives. There was their promulgating a system in which what religion does is it's for good people and at best what it can do is make maybe some bad people. Good. But if you're too bad, it's not for you. It's too bad. It's unfortunate, but it's not your thing. It won't work. But what the scripture tells us, what these parables press us with is not that Jesus came to make bad people good, but he came to make dead people alive. And so what we have here is a clear indication of that, that even in the midst of your, your horrible state, that that state, that it seemed hopeless, that here Jesus God, through Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven all of our transgressions. Then here's the, here's the amazing part as if like, we didn't understand that, and I think like you and Paul here saying like, this should be clear, but I'm gonna double down on this. I'm gonna use some language that should be abundantly clear to you just how bad things were and then how much freedom you should feel, what your lightness, what the, the bounce in your steps should be like because you were once dead uncircumcised. Now you've been made alive and you've been having everything graciously forgiven in Christ. Here, here's what it's like having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How? How good is that sentence? Christ in his death canceled out the. Certificate of debt. Again, something that was codified against us. So other words, it was documented. These were not just, and they weren't just this little statement that said like, it's really bad for you. You owe something. There's something that's been heaped up against you. But they were decrees against us. They were hostile to us. They were literally the thing that was going to kill us for all and separate us from Christ. That thing, that certificate, he has taken it. Out out of the way, having nailed it to the cross, having disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made public display of them having triumphed over them. So it's this incredible sense that not only has Christ. Taking the certificate, cast it aside, paid for it in full. But then above and beyond that, he's disarmed the rulers and authorities. He's made a public display of them. He's triumphed over sin, death, and the devil in such a demonstrative and public way to show that he's the ruler of all the world. That he's the promise maker and he's the promise keeper, that he's just, and that he's justifier. And so Paul says to us, then Christian. How ought you to live? How ought you to behave? Is this not the best news that you could possibly hear? So all of that, I think is literally just the smallest backdrop to leading us into this final parable, this escalation really, of course, the three parables in one about the prodigal son and. I would admonish you to think on that. This little extra pause that we've had here I think is good because I need to at least to remember that this is what's leading us for Jesus to say, to start with a story that says A man had two sons. You know, after we've talked about sheep. We talked about coins and then he goes, and a man had two sons. What a beautiful like beginning what? What incredible language, what brilliance, all of this to show us his true heart for us. And I think it's always worthwhile to stop and to pause for a second. And to consider that heart as we make ourselves ready to receive this final and amazing parable. [00:35:13] Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser [00:35:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I hope that you will continue to hang out with us, that you yourself will not take my word for it or Tony's word for it, but you yourself, go to Luke 15 read. It takes maybe. I dunno, 45 seconds to read all three of these and to spend some time thinking about what it is that Christ has done for us. That we're the lost sheep, we're the lost coin. We're also this lost son, son, daughter, that this was all of our stories. At some point, we can't escape the fact that this really is our biography and. It hits close to home because we find that when we examine ourselves that we are the ones that were lost in our transgressions and dead. That we are the ones that were un circumcised, but God has made us alive together with Christ. I mean, read, read Colossians two and read Ephesians one, and what you're gonna find is we have every reason to rejoice, and these stories should compel us into. A life of constant rejoicing for what Christ has done for us. That's the reason for every season. It's the reason for the Christian life, and certainly so much of what we find reflected in reform theology proper. So you know what to do. Come hang out with us on the Telegram chat, continue to process with us alongside of us in conversation with us, these incredible parables, because I do believe there's so much here. We'll, we're never going to plumb the depths of these, and this is just our feeble attempt. To get us in the right place as we make that final hair point turn into this, that we slow down just a little bit and consider what great thing that Christ has done for us and what God, the Father and the Holy Spirit has wrought in our lives by way of this incredible salvation. So you know what to do. Come back next week and we'll get after the parable. Of the prodigal. But until you do that, until we chat again and Tony rejoins us safe and strong, and Lord willing, as great as ever, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Coin emphasizes that God actively and diligently searches for those who belong to Him, sparing no effort to recover what is rightfully His. Jesus uses three sequential parables in Luke 15 to progressively reveal different aspects of God's heart toward sinners, with escalating emphasis on divine joy. The coin represents something of significant value that already belonged to the woman, illustrating that God's elect belong to Him even before their redemption. Unlike finding something new, the joy depicted is specifically about recovering something that was already yours but had been lost, highlighting God's eternal claim on His people. The spiritual inability of the sinner is represented by the coin's passivity - it cannot find its own way back and must be sought out by its owner. Angels rejoice over salvation not independently but because they share in God's delight at the effectiveness of His saving power. The parable challenges believers to recover their joy in salvation and to share it with others, much like the woman who called her neighbors to celebrate with her. Expanded Insights God's Determined Pursuit of What Already Belongs to Him The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose. The Divine Joy in Recovering Sinners One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk. Memorable Quotes "Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb "The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb "These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesus and the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and. Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it. Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it. In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So [00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it. [00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan. Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is [00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me. [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous. [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. [00:02:51] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance, [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners. Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group. And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn. There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there. [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True. Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready. [00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else. Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something. [00:04:13] AI and Problem Solving [00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions. True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem. And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more. So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted. So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest. So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar. If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule. And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions. And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell. The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary. Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this. [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way. Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history. So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction. And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right. It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out. And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of. So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um. Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances. But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it. Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes. Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai. And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee. So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see. We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least. [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken. [00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye. [00:13:05] Christmas Hymns and Music Recommendations [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here? [00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it? [00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too. [00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think [00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question. [00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and. That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local. Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody. I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel. So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption. That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness. Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill. All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come. And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today. Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit. Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them. We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption. [00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes, [00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's [00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online. I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh. I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all? [00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably. [00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um. The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that [00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different. Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually. Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes, [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true [00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the. Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times. It was very, very good. [00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it. You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude. It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated. So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior. So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal? We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does. [00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time. Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but [00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though. [00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me [00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best? Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in? [00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like. [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand. [00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point. We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to? Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time. [00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15. [00:22:12] Discussion on the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them. And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive. Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight. Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. [00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like. Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners. He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right. This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not. Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it. And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what? 50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose. So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right? She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth. Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a [00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I [00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase. I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it? And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it. [00:27:44] Understanding the Parable's Context [00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us. [00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation. [00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we? [00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind. Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this. Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could. Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage. [00:28:57] The Significance of the Lost Coin [00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad. The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one. So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before. It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love. Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money. And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends. There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way. And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner. He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context. [00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:23] Theological Implications of God's People [00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son. Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people. As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past. Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen. He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right? There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great. Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right? But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new. These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl. This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation. But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them. [00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. [00:34:53] God's Relentless Pursuit of Sinners [00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people. The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people. Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost. And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life. But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us. And these parables really speak against that [00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true. And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance. I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right? There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit. [00:38:12] Rejoicing in Salvation [00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished. And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself. [00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God. Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that. Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about. We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over. Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him. That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things. But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving. Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting. Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep. And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing. [00:42:43] The Joy of Redemption [00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing. That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing. The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable. [00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So, [00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him. [00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is. And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners. [00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance. If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us. [00:44:41] Applying the Parable to Our Lives [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them. And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy. [00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process. And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose. Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him. So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine. I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying. Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us. I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin. They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run. After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you. [00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy. Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will. Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing. I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it. And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in [00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right. [00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy. And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy. She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption. She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it. Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work. Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened. I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of. In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody. Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation. [00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so. Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy. In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation. And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin, which so easily entangles us, let us run that with endurance, the race that I set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who, for the joy, the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God for consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary, fainting in heart. [00:54:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, it's always good for us to end on scripture, so I won't try to add to that. [00:54:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's the summary. That's what we learned. Yeah. [00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: That's the summary, Jesse. Um, I'm so stoked to keep going on this series. Um, I, I think we're gonna have to probably take at least a couple weeks on the Parable of Prodigal Son because there's so much to it. It's, it's a longer, uh, parable. So we'll come back next week. Um, take a little time, read through, uh, Luke 15, grab a decent commentary and, and do your homework so you can come into this conversation with us, ready to sort of soak in and marinate in God's word. And, and you know, this is one of those, um, one of those parables that I think that all of these parables, but like particularly this is one of those parables that I think we should tell other people what we're learning on this one. I think there's always a place for us to share what we're learning, but it feels, it feels to me like this is something that is pertinent to Christians writ large. There is this sort of malaise and sense. Of a lack of joy that I think is really, yeah, there's almost like a spiritual depression in the church, and I don't use that term lightly like I have, I have friends and family members who suffer from clinical depression. It's no joke. And there is a sort of like spiritual depression that settled in on the church in a lot of ways. We live in a pretty depressing time. And, and I think that church is affected by that. We could all use a dose of joy and we just happen to be going into, I'll even say it, even though it's not my normal practice, like we're going into Christmas. Like it's the season of joy. Right? Right. Tis the season to be jolly like, right. There's a, there's a joyfulness in. In Christ that should be coming out of us, and we need to spread that, that needs to be contagious to others. So if you've found this episode, um, helpful in driving you towards that, please do consider sharing it with a friend, right? Whether you, whether you use it, word of mouth, you send a link through your, through a text message, whatever, please tell someone because, not because Jesse and I are something special, like we're just two guys who wanna talk about the Bible and we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we're not. Always a hundred percent sure which of those is which, but this is God's word. And if, if sharing a link to this podcast drives someone to take a look at Luke chapter 15 and, and be able to be drawn by the Holy Spirit to that scripture, then, then that's great. So please consider sharing this episode with a friend. And if this episode has been helpful for you too, we don't usually ask for this, but um, please go to whatever podcast app you're using and if there's the ability to leave a rating, please do that. Um, it doesn't change the algorithm. It doesn't make it so like we appear higher in the search engines or anything, but people do really do a lot of times look at the ratings of a podcast if they're deciding if they want to invest time in it. Right. Especially if they look at an episode, it's 59 minutes long. They're like, Ooh, do I really want to burn 59 minutes of my life on this? Oh yeah, you do. A lot of times the way they've. Figure that out is if they look at the ratings and the ratings say yes, this is a great show. So please take a few minutes. If you can go give us a, a rating on, um, on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you happen to be, we would really appreciate it and we would love for you to be able to share this episode with someone who might need to hear it. [00:57:34] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's play a little game as we close. So as you've said, we've been through the parable Lost Sheep. We've been through the parable of the Lost Chama and now the granddaddy, the big one is coming up, the whole culmination of this whole series and sets of parables that Jesus is delivering and he's emphasizing and emphasizing and building momentum and it's the big one. So Tony, I ask you for our coverage over or under two and a half episodes to do it. I dunno, is that the right line? [00:58:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think at least two we might, we might stretch into a third, especially since we probably need to come back and talk about how Matthew covers this same subject a little differently. So I'll, I'll say at least two and a half, uh, and maybe the second half of that third one will be coming back to Matthew. [00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: So basically three, like, uh, yeah, you're over, which I think is probably the right call to make. So even there. We agreed. I, I felt like if I said three, that's like too many. You need a better line than that. You know? You gotta do it on the halves too, because then that forces an actual decision, which we really didn't make anyway. 'cause we basically just said two and a half. [00:58:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Two and a half. Yeah. Well, Jesse, without further ado, let's, the sooner we get done with this, the sooner we can get onto the next. That's not actually how time works either, but it's just a good way to close the podcast. So it, if you're listening though, it's true. It it is. It does. If you're listening, especially if you're listening. Nevermind. I'm gonna stop now. Until next time, Jesse, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In episode 471 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal begin a multi-part series on Jesus's parables of lost things in Luke 15. This first installment focuses on the Parable of the Lost Sheep, exploring how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's disposition toward sinners. The hosts examine the contextual significance of this teaching as Jesus's response to the Pharisees' criticism of his fellowship with tax collectors and sinners. Through careful analysis of the text, they unpack how this parable not only rebukes religious self-righteousness but also reveals the active, seeking love of Christ for His own. The discussion highlights the profound theological truth that God's joy is made complete in the restoration of His lost children. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Sheep demonstrates Christ's heart for sinners, showing that seeking the lost is not exceptional behavior but the expected norm for those who understand God's character. Jesus positions this parable as a direct response to the Pharisees' criticism, turning their accusation ("he eats with sinners") into an affirmation of His mission and identity. The lost sheep represents those who belong to Christ but have gone astray; the shepherd's pursuit illustrates Christ's commitment to recover all whom the Father has given Him. God's rejoicing over one repentant sinner reveals a profound theological truth: divine joy increases in the act of showing mercy and restoring the lost. The shepherd's willingness to leave the 99 to find the one reflects not recklessness but the infinite value God places on each of His children. Regular worship practices, including family worship and congregational singing, reflect the same disposition of praise that heaven displays when sinners return to God. The parable serves not only as a comfort to sinners but as a challenge to believers to adopt God's heart toward the lost rather than the judgmental attitude of the Pharisees. Understanding the Shepherd's Heart The central focus of the Parable of the Lost Sheep is not simply God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active pursuit of them. As Tony Arsenal points out, Jesus presents the shepherd's search not as an extraordinary act of sacrifice, but as the obvious and expected response: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the one that is lost?" Jesus frames this as the normal behavior that any shepherd would exhibit, making the Pharisees' lack of concern for "lost sheep" appear not just uncompassionate but utterly irrational. This reveals a profound truth about God's character: He is not passively waiting for sinners to find their way back to Him; He is actively seeking them out. As Jesse Schwamb emphasizes, "Christ's love is an active, working love." The shepherd does not merely hope the sheep will return; he goes after it until he finds it. This reflects God's covenant commitment to His people—those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world. The parable thus powerfully illustrates the doctrines of divine election and effectual calling within a deeply personal and relational framework. The Divine Joy in Restoration Perhaps the most striking element of this parable is the emphasis on the shepherd's joy upon finding his lost sheep. This isn't merely relief at recovering lost property, but profound celebration that calls for community participation: "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost." Jesse highlights Thomas Goodwin's profound insight that "Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged by his showing grace and mercy." This suggests something remarkable about God's relationship with His people—that in some mysterious way, God's joy is made more complete in the act of showing mercy and restoring sinners. The hosts point out that this doesn't imply any deficiency in God, but rather reveals the relational nature of His love. When Jesus states that "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance," He's indicating that divine celebration isn't prompted merely by moral perfection but by restoration and reconciliation. This understanding transforms how we approach God when we've strayed. As Jesse notes, "Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or renewed pardon." Our repentance doesn't merely avoid punishment; it actually brings joy to the heart of God. This is a profound comfort for believers struggling with sin and failure, assuring us that our return is met not with divine disappointment but with heavenly celebration. Memorable Quotes "This parable of the lost sheep gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children. It's really an exceptional and special window into God's design, his loving compassion for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us, for his children who are lost." - Jesse Schwamb "He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy." - Jesse Schwamb "Christ's love is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, wailing for his lost sheep, so our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitying sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice." - Jesse Schwamb Host Information Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal are the hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood, a podcast that explores Reformed theology and its application to the Christian life. With a blend of theological depth and practical insight, they examine Scripture through the lens of historic Reformed doctrine, offering accessible teaching for believers seeking to grow in their understanding of the faith. Resources Mentioned Scripture: Luke 15:1-7, Matthew 18, John 10 Worship Resource: Sing The Worship Initiative (sing.theworshipinitiative.com) Theological Reference: Thomas Goodwin's writings on Christ's joy in redemption Brad Kafer and Michael Lewis, The Theocast Tragedy, episode 75, with guest Jeremy Marshall, November 16, 2025, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-reclamation-podcast/id1747221237?i=1000736883898. Joshua Lewis and Michael Rowntree, The Theocast Split: Examining Christian Unity and Theological Differences, November 11, 2025, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-remnant-radios-podcast/id1392545186?i=1000736293538. Daniel Vincent, Fallout of Theocast, November 15, 2025, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-particular-baptist-podcast/id1512601040?i=1000736872315. Tony Arsenal, "A Refutation of Reformed Fringe," Reformed Arsenal, November 2025, https://reformedarsenal.com/category/a-refutation-of-reformed-fringe/. Tony Arsenal, "The Quest For Illegitimate Religious Gnosis: How 'Fringe' Theology Deforms Christology," Heidelblog, November 24, 2025, https://heidelblog.net/2025/11/the-quest-for-illegitimate-religious-gnosis-how-fringe-theology-deforms-christology/. Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design. His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, Welcome to episode 471 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:56] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. You know, it seems like sometimes we could just summarize the teaching of Jesus like this. You get a parable and you get a parable, and you get a parable, and we've already, by looking at some of these parables, gotten to see what the kingdom of God means. The kingdom of God is Jesus coming in His power. It's here, but also not yet. The kingdom of God is the judgment of God. The kingdom of God is a blessing of God. The kingdom of God is the treasure of God. And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design. His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, and I think we'll probably have some maybe like semi hot takes, maybe some like mid hot takes as the young kids say. [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Mid hot takes. [00:02:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:02:08] Tony Arsenal: So like [00:02:09] Jesse Schwamb: lukewarm takes, well my thought is like, what is a hot take that's not heretical? Do you know what I mean? So it's gotta be, yeah, [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: there you go. [00:02:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like, listen, we want to be orthodox in our approach here, but I think we gotta, we gotta chew these up a little bit. Like we gotta digest them, we gotta move them around in our gut and really take everything that we've, we thought we knew about these, we just heard and they've been written on cards or postcards or crocheted into, I guess you're not crocheting bible verses, but like cross stitching Bible verses on pillows and really go deep because I think there's so much here for us, and if this were like for, for everybody that wants to say that, sometimes we take a little bit too long with our series. Again, I do have a question, simple question for all of those people. And that question is how dare you? And the second thing I would say is, you're lucky that you're not listening to a Puritan podcast. Maybe you never would, like at the Puritans in a podcast, the series would never end. They'd start with like a single verse and be like, we're gonna do two episodes on this. And then they'd be getting to the like, you know, 4 71 and they still wouldn't have left like the, the first five words. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. We move a little bit faster than that. Pace. Not much. Yeah. Way, [00:03:15] Jesse Schwamb: listen, way faster. By like Puritan standards, we are cruising. Like we're, we're just like NASCAR going through these parables. And to that end, I'll try to keep us moving though. I've already delayed us already because we're, we're late for affirmations. [00:03:30] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:30] Jesse Schwamb: Denials. The time is ripe. It is Now. The fields are gleaning with affirmations and denials. So let's, let's bring them in. Tony, are you denying against, are you affirming with something? [00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: It's a little bit of both, I guess. Um, do it. [00:03:44] Controversial Theology Discussion [00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: A little while ago, uh, it was maybe back in September, I did an episode on, uh, some theology that was being propagated by a podcast called Reformed Fringe. Um, it was a solo episode, so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. The affirmation here comes in, in, uh, the form of a show called, I think it's called The Reclamation Cast. Um, there are a series of podcasts that have addressed some of the same issues. For those who haven't been following it, which I would assume is probably most of you, the issue is kind of blown up online. Um, Theo Cast, which was a pretty big a, a really big podcast in the, uh, sort of reformed ish, particular Baptist world. Um, they actually split because of this. And so John Moffitt was one of the hosts. Justin Perdue was the other. And then John was also on this show called Reform Fringe with Doug Van Dorn. So I'm affirming some of these other podcasts that have covered the same issue, and I would encourage you to seek them out and listen to them. I can can pull some links together for the show notes today. Um, more or less the, the issue that I identified, um, is beyond just sort of what's known as Divine Counsel Theology, which was made, made, really made popular by, um, Michael Heiser. I don't know that he would, we could say that he was necessarily like the. Architect or inventor of that. I'm sure there are people who've had similar thoughts before that, but he's really the main name. Um, he's passed on now, but, um, Doug Van Dorn was a, uh, he's a Baptist pastor outta Col, uh, Colorado, who took his views and actually sort of like cranked him up and particularly. Uh, troubling is the way he handles, um, the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Um, I won't go into all of the details, but he wants to argue and he has argued in writing actually, and he, he published the paper first in 2015, and then again in 2024, he published it again, uh, with very minimal changes and nothing substantial. It was really kind of contextual stuff. Um, he actually argues that in the Old Testament, when we see the angel of the Lord, it's not just, not just God appearing as an angel, it's God actually becoming an angel. And in his paper, at least, he argues, um, more or less that this is a sort of hypostatic union. It's not just a temporary taking on of some sort of like outward appearance. Um, it's an actual, uh, uh, assumption of properties into the person of the sun. And the whole reason he makes this argument, which is why it's a little disingenuine, that now he's saying that's not what his argument was. He makes this argument in order to make it so the angel of the Lord can genuinely suffer, experience passions, change his mind, um, enter into covenant, come to know new knowledge, like there's all sorts of things that he wants the angel of the Lord to be able to actually do, not just accommodated, but actually. Experience. Um, and he does that by having the angel of the Lord be an appropriation of angelic properties into the person of the sun, what we would call a hypostatic union. And in his paper, he actually says like, I would want to use all of the same language of, uh, of this union as I do of the incarnation. He intentionally uses the words image and form kind of drawing from Philippians two. So the, the affirmation comes in and there are other podcasts that have identified this. So it's not just me. I would encourage people to go find them. Where the denial comes in is, um, there have been many people, including myself, who have attempted to engage with Doug Van Dorn, like publicly, directly, um, through private messaging. There are many people who've tried to reach out to him, and he has just sort of waved all of them away. Which is one thing, if like you just say like, I don't really care to interact with you. I don't really care to have this discussion. But then he is also presenting the situation as though he, he is totally open to having these conversations and nobody is trying to reach out to him. So I would encourage everyone, you're all reasonable people, search the scriptures, read what he has to say. The paper that he wrote is called Passing the Impassable pa or impassable Impasse, which is hard to say, but it's a very clever title. Um, and it was, it actually was written, I don't know a lot about this controversy and maybe I need to do a little bit more research. It was actually written during a time where, um, the particular Baptist conventions that were out out west where experiencing a lot of internal controversy regarding impassability, and this was his proposal for how, how biblically you can still maintain the divine attributes of changeness and impassability all these things, uh, without compromising the real, the real passable, um, appearance that we see of the, of God in the Bible. So. I don't wanna belabor the point. This is not the point of the show. We, I already did a whole episode on this. I've published, I wrote many blog articles. There's a lot that I've, I've put out on this. Um, so check it out, look at it. Wait for yourself. Um, the only reason I've been, this has come up in our telegram chat. People have encountered this theology. Um, one, one guy was asking about it, 'cause I think like his mom or his aunt or someone close to him had, has been sort of reading Michael Heider's work. Michael Heiser was very instrumental at logos. He was on staff at Logos for quite a while. So a lot of their, um, more speculative theological articles that you might find on their website are written by him. Um, he was a, one of the main people behind the sort of proprietary translation that, um, Laro uses the Lham, um, English Bible. So. It's not a neutral point. Pretty significant theological consequences if, uh, if our reading of what Doug is saying is correct. Um, and there doesn't seem to be any real openness to discussing that. He has to be fair, he has published a series of affirmations and denials, um, affirming his a his orthodoxy saying he affirms the change changeness of the son. He denies that there was a hypothetic union. So that's encouraging. It's great to see that when it comes down to it. He's willing to make affirmations, uh, of orthodox things and to deny unorthodox things, but it doesn't really help the situation when those things and those affirmations, denials are still at very least difficult to reconcile with what he wrote. I think in point of fact, they're actually contradictory to what he wrote. So the, the proper course of action would be for him to say, well, no, that's not what I meant. Or, or, yes, I wrote that, but that's not what I believe. Um, rather than to just try say, trying to say like, well, you all got it wrong. There's a lot of people reading these papers looking at it going, Ooh, it sure seems like the sun took on an angelic nature, even if that was temporary. That's, that's got some pretty weird consequences for your theology. And one of the shows I was listening to made this point that I thought was interesting and a little scary is this is like an utterly new theology. Um, no one that I've talked to who is aware of this, who studied these issues. Is aware of anyone ever saying anywhere that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was some sort of like assumption of actual angelic properties into the person of the sun. Almost everywhere that you read. It's either a manifestation view where the sun is kind of appearing as an angel, um, but it's not actually becoming an angel. It's, it's sort of taking on created medium, uh, in order to reveal himself or an instrumental view, which would be something like there's an angel that is used instrumentally by the Lord, and so we can say that it the angel of the Lord is the Lord in an instrumental sense, kind of like saying like if I pick up a hammer. Use that hammer for as long as I'm using that hammer. The hammer is actually sort of an extension of me. I'm moving it, I'm motivating it, I'm controlling it, it's connected to me, and then I put it down when I'm finished. Those are kind of the two main views that people, people would argue in the Old Testament, if they want to even say that the angel of the Lord is a Christoph, it would either be this manifestation view or this instrumental view, this sort of weird novel assumption of properties view. I'm, I've never encountered anything like that and I've studied this, this, this particular issue at some length. So check out the other episodes, I'll pull together some links, uh, of ones that have done it, both that have been, uh, critical of Doug's position. And also there was one, um, on remnant radio, which I never heard of, but, um, that was acknowledging that there are some question marks, but sort of saying like, this really is an overblown controversy. Um, and then I'll link to Doug's podcast too, so you can listen to his own words and, and sort of think through it yourself. [00:11:51] Jesse Schwamb: Some point I have this volition, you know, places, organizations, groups might have like FAQs, frequently asked questions. I have this idea to put together for us, like a frequently discussed topic. This would be one of them. We've talked, or we co we've come back to this idea of like the molecule way, the messenger of the Lord many times. Yeah. In part because I think there's a good and natural curiosity among many when you're reading the scriptures and you see that's the angel of the Lord and you're trying to discern, is it Christoph? And in some cases it seems more clear than others. For instance, the Maia appearing to, you know, Joshua, or, you know, there's, there's all kinds of instances in the scripture that draw us into this sense of like, well, who is it that is being represented here? And the funny thing about this though, and I agree with you, that like makes it. Puts it in like, I would say contradistinction to like just kind of innocently wanting to understand is that there's a lot of theological gymnastics happening here, like a lot and two, it seems to me that he's kind of trying to create a problem to find a solution on this one. Yeah. And so it should give everybody that sense that we always talk about where like the red light goes off, the flags get thrown up, that when you hear that, you're just like, well, something is not right about that. And the thing that's not right about it is one, it doesn't subscribe to, like you're saying, any kind of historical orthodoxy. And two, it's just funky for funky sake. It's, there's really a lot that's happening there to get to some kind of end, and it's better to know what that end is. I'm glad you brought that up. So I think you can, everybody who's listening can weigh, like, if you. Don't wanna weigh into that, or you don't really need to solve the problem that's being created here, then don't bother with it altogether. Yeah. Uh, it's just not worth your time. But people, this is the hide thing. Like when, when we are challenged to be discerning people, when we are challenged to take scriptures at face value, there is always a tendency for us sometimes to go too deep, to get too wild with it, to try to turn around and bend it to, to answer all in every single question. And even the reform tradition doesn't attempt to do that. So here, there is something that's beautiful about these certain mysteries of God and to take him at his face, to trust him in his word, we should seek, seek out many things. Some things are just not worth seeking out. So, you know, the Internet's gonna internet and people are gonna, people and theologians are gonna theologize. And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not that productive. [00:14:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think to be as charitable as I possibly can be, I think, um, Doug is, has identified a legitimate. Question about the Old Testament, right? Right. The, the Bible appears when we read about God in the Old Testament. He appears to do things like change his mind, suffer yes. Grieve experience passions. Right. Um, and, and so that's a real, um, question that needs to be answered as you read the Old Testament. Um, and the two options of course, or the two primary options of course, are either that God actually suffers, he actually experiences those things, in which case he wouldn't be a changeless God. Um, he wouldn't be a perfect God because there's these, these modes of change within God. The other option would be that there's some sort of appearance of suffering or appearance of, of change or passions that is not actual, it's not real in the sense that he's not God's lying. It's not that God's lying to us, of course not. But that these are appearances for our sake. We would say that's, we call that the doctrine of accommodation. Right. Um. What Doug tries to do is actually exactly what the church did in trying to understand how it could be that the second person of the Trinity suffered. Uh, why, why we can genuinely say that God suffered. Um, we can say that and that the answer was the hypothetic union, and this is where it really kind of like jumped into full relief for me is Doug has the same answer for the Old Testament, but instead of an incarnation of humanity, I don't know what you would call it, an, an evangelization or a, something like that, um, he would probably call like a, some somatization. Um, he uses the difference between Soma and sars as though that somehow answers the question. He says it's not a, an incarnation into sarks. It's a, an assumption of properties in da Soma. But in either case, like his answer is the same answer. That the way that the angel of the Lord suffers in the Old Testament is not according to his divine nature. It's according to these angelic properties that are assumed into his person well. Okay, so like you get the same conclusion. There needs to be some explanation now of like, well, why is it a hypostatic union when it's the human nature, but it's not a hypostatic union when it's the angelic nature or angelic properties. Um, and I think the, the real answer is that when Doug wrote those papers, he just didn't realize those implications. Um, Doug is a sharp guy, like, don't get me wrong, he's a smart guy. Um, I think he's got a pretty good grip on Hebrew and, and a lot of this too is, um. Not to make this more of an episode than it is, but, um, this Divine Council worldview at first feels like not that big of a deal when you, when you read about it the first time. Um, or when you read sort of like popular treatments of it. Um, the real problem is that this divine council worldview, um, which I'm not gonna define again, you can look, I'll pull the radio episode or the other podcast episodes, but this divine council worldview becomes like the controlling meta narrative for the entire scripture for these guys. And so if, if the son is to be the sort of lead Elohim on this divine council besides Yahweh himself, then he has to become an angel. He has to become a one of the sons of God in order to do this. Sort of almost ignoring the fact that like he already was the son of God. Like, it, it just becomes, um, this controlling meta-narrative. And if all that this, all that this divine council worldview is saying is like, yes, there's a class of creatures. Um, that are spiritual in nature and the Bible uses the word Elohim to describe them and also uses the word Elohim to describe the one true God who's in an entirely different class. And it just happens to use the same, the same word to describe those two classes. Okay. Like I would find a different way to say that that's maybe not as risky and confusing, but that would be fine. But this goes so much farther than than that. And now it has all these weird implications. He actually did a five, five-part sermon series at his church where his argument is essentially that like this. This overarching narrative of the Sons of God and, and the 70 sons of God. Um, that that's actually the story that explains how salvation functions and what we're being saved to is we're not being swept into the life of the Trinity, which is kind of the classic Christian view, the classic orthodox view that because, because of who the son is by nature, in reference to the father, when we're adopted, we gain that same relationship with the father and the son and the spirit. Um, he's, he's wanting to say, it's actually more like, no, we, we we're sort of brought onto this divine council as, as creator representatives of the cosmos. So it's, it, there's a lot to, it's, um, again, I, I don't want people just to take my word for it. I'm gonna provide as many receipts as I can, um, in the, the, um, show notes. Um, but yeah, it's, it's weird and it, it's unnecessary and [00:18:57] Jesse Schwamb: that's right. [00:18:58] Tony Arsenal: It made a lot of sense to me when Michael Heiser went down these routes, because his whole program was, he had a, a podcast called The Naked Bible, and the whole idea was like he interprets the Bible apart from any prior interpretations, which of course we know is not possible. But that was sort of his plan was he's. It wasn't necessarily anti cre, anti-real or anticon confessional. He just thought you needed to and could come to the Bible without any sort of pre interpretive, uh, positions. Um, so it made a lot of sense to me when he was like, well, yeah, this isn't the way that the historic tradition isn't understood this, but that doesn't matter. But then you have someone like Doug Van Dorn come around who claims to be a 1689 Confessional Baptist. This is like radically foreign to that system of doctrine. So it's just a weird situation. It's kind of an abandonment of the pattern of sound words that handed down to us, the ages. Um, and it does have all these weird implications, and I'm not hearing loud and clear. I am not saying Doug Van Dorn is not a Christian. Um, I do think that the implications of what he's teaching are heretical. Um, but we've made the distinction before that like, just because you teach something heretical doesn't mean you're a heretic. Um, that's a, that's a formal proclamation that the church officially makes not some dude on the internet with a podcast. But the, the implications of his teaching are quite dangerous. So. Check it out. Read it with caution and with discernment, um, and with, you know, a good systematic theology that can help kind of correct you in your hands. And the creeds and the confessions. But dude, check it out. You, you're reasonable people. Look at the scriptures yourself and make your own decisions. I don't expect anybody to ever just take my word for any of this stuff. [00:20:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right. Or like you said, don't bother with. Yeah. Or don't bother. Just read the confessions. Unaware of it. Yeah. That's also, okay. Stick to the, the, hopefully the good local preaching and teaching that you're receiving and just hang out there. Yeah. And that's also okay. The internet is a super strange and weird place. Yeah. And that includes even among well intentions. Theology, sometimes it just gets weird. And this is one of those examples. [00:20:51] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. I often tell people that my, my goal in any sort of public teaching or podcasting or blogging or when I'm preaching, uh, my goal is to be as like vanilla reformed as I possibly can. Like that's what I'm saying. There, there are times where like some of the stuff that I be, like, I, I'm not like straight down the middle on every single thing. There are things that I would, you know, like my view on, um, state relations with church like that, that's not exactly run of the mill vanilla presbyterianism. Um, so there are definitely things where I'm, I'm sort of a little off center on, um, but I try to be like right down the middle of the vanilla, vanilla aisle here with maybe a little bit of chocolate sauce here and there. But it's, it's pretty, uh, my reform theology is pretty boring and I'm fine with that. I love [00:21:35] Jesse Schwamb: it. I love it. It's okay to be boring, isn't it? Like boring? It's is for the most part, right. On the money. Because often when we do take our views and we polarize them to some degree, we know that there's a greater probability propensity for the errors to lie there if you're always hanging out there. Yeah. But especially in this, again, you've said all the right things it, it's just one of those things. But it's a good mark for all of us to understand that when we move so far away from orthodoxy that we're just kind of out on the pier by ourselves and you're looking around, you ought to ask what happened that you're out there so far. [00:22:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, save us from this train of thought. What are you affirming or denying today? [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: I hope I have something that's exactly the opposite. As you know, Tony, not all affirmations especially are created equal because sometimes we throw one out there and it's, it's good. We think it's great. Maybe not for everybody. It doesn't resonate. It doesn't hit. This is not one of those, this is for everybody. [00:22:24] The Importance of Daily Worship [00:22:24] Jesse Schwamb: I'm coming in with a hot, strong affirmation, and that is one of the things you and I have promulgated for so long is the beauty, the necessity, the responsibility, and the joy of regular daily worship, and that can look. Lots of ways, but I think you and I have tried in our own lives and we've spoken a lot about the high conviction that we have that that kinda worship should be participatory and it can involve reading the scriptures, praying, singing this spills over into convictions about family worship, leading our families, and that kinda experience, even if it's just a little bit every day and even if it's, we give it our best efforts, this is not like a kind of legalistic approach. And so I just came across something that I think I've been testing for a while that I think is faab fabulous for everybody, could be helpful to you in daily worship. And I'm just gonna give you the website first and explain what it is. Secondly, so the website is sing the worship initiative.com. That's sing dot the worship initiative.com. You can find it if it's easier. Just search the Worship initiative. What this is, is it is. Once you sign up for this, you'll actually get a text. It's a daily text, and that text will be a link in a browser every day. So it's not a podcast, but it comes through a browser every day. It is a time of, I would say, I'll use the word colloquially, it's a time of devotional with singing led by Shane and Shane and some of their other musicians and their friends. And this is glorious. It's no more than 15 minutes, and it's purposely orchestrated to lead you or whoever's listening with you in singing, including in the app or rather in the browser. They will give you the words for the songs that they're gonna sing that day. And one, Shannon and Shane are fantastic musicians. You wanna listen to this with a good speaker or set of, uh, earbuds because, uh, the music is great and it's very stripped down. It's just, it's just piano and a little bit guitar generally. Uh, but the speaking of the theological pieces of what's in these songs is fantastic. And this just past week, they've done songs like Crown Hit with Many Crowns. Um, in Christ Alone, he will hold me fast, he will hold me fast, is an incredible piece of music and a piece of worship. So I'm just enjoying, they are using rich deeply theological songs to speak rich, deep theological truths, and then to invite you into a time of singing, like along with them. It's as if like they were just in your living room or in their kitchen and said, Hey, you got 15 minutes, especially start the day. Why don't we gather around this table and why don't we worship together? So I haven't found something quite like this where it's like an invitation to participate, both by being active listeners into what they're saying, but by also singing together. So I. Can only come at this with a really hot affirmation because I'm being blessed by it. And this rhythm of somebody like leading you daily into song, I'm finding to be so incredibly valuable. Of course, like we can find song in lots of places. We may lead ourselves, we may rely on the radio or a playlist to do that, but this kind of unique blend of a time that's being set apart, that's organized around a theme and then brings music into that as a form of meditation and worship is pretty singular. So check out, sing the worship edition of.com and especially if you're a fan of Shane and Shane, you're gonna slide right into this and feel very blessed because they're talented musicians and what they're bringing, I think is a, is a rich theological practice of actual worship, not just devotionals of some kind, but like actual participatory worship of, of in spirit and truth. [00:25:53] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just signed up for this while you're talking. It took about a minute. It's super easy. So, um, and I'm sure that they have a way to opt out. If you start it and you hate it and you want to just stop getting text messages, I'm sure you can just respond, stop. Um, so there's really nothing to lose. There's no gimmick. They don't ask for a credit card, anything like that. Um, and I, I'm with you, like I love me some Shane and Shane music, and I do like some Shane and Shane music, um, that, that like takes me way back. Those, there are a lot of singers who've been at this for a long time. Yes, Shane and Shane was like. A really like popular band when I was in like, like upper high school. Oh yeah. So like, we're talking about a multi-decade career, long career doing mostly worship music, like they're performers, but they have entire, they have entire, many entire, um, albums that are psalms, um, entire albums that are worship choruses or what you might think of as chorus singing. Um, so yeah, I think this is great. And I'm always looking for new ways to integrate worship into my life. So this could be something as simple as like, maybe you're not gonna be able to sing out loud, but you could listen to this on the bus on the way home. Or you could put in your air, your ear pods, uh, when you're, you know, doing the dishes and instead of just listening to another podcast. I recognize the irony of saying that on a podcast that you may be listening to while you're doing the dishes, but instead of just listening to another podcast, you spend a little bit of time thinking about meditating on God's word. So that's great. I think that's an awesome, awesome information. A little [00:27:20] Jesse Schwamb: bit like very casual liturgy, but you're right, they've been around for a while and this, the content that they're producing here strikes me as like very mature. Yeah, both like in, of course, like the music they're doing and how they're singing, they're singing parts, but also just what they're speaking into. It's not just like kind of a, let's let tell you how this song impacted my life. They're, they're pulling from the scriptures and they're praying through. They're giving you a moment to stop and pause and pray yourself. There's a lot that's, that's built in there. And can I give like one other challenge? [00:27:47] Encouragement for Family Worship [00:27:47] Jesse Schwamb: This, this came to me as well this week and I know we've had some conversation in the telegram chat about like family worship, leading our families in worship about somehow how do we model that? How do we bring that together? And music often being a part of that. And I think that it's especially important for families to hear their. Their fathers and their husbands sing, no matter what your voice sounds like. Can I give a, a challenge? I think might sound crazy. This might be a hot, hot take. And so you can bring me back down instead of a mid hot take. If it, yeah, if it's a little bit too hot. But I was reading an article, and this is really from that article, and it, it did challenge me. And the article basically challenged this and said, listen, most people are actually far more musical than they understand themselves to be. And that might just not be in the instrumentation of the voice, but in other ways. And so the challenge was if you're a, a husband, a father, maybe you have some proclivity of music, maybe you have none. The challenge was basically, why don't you consider. Learning a musical instrument to lead your family in worship. And, and the challenge was basically like, pick up a guitar and, uh, see if you can eke out a couple of chords. Work through that just for the sole purpose of if nothing else, but saying like, I want to participate in something differently in my home. And maybe that's getting a keyboard and just, just trying it there. If I can play the guitar, anybody truly I think can play the guitar. It's, it's not really that difficult. I just found this captivating that this guy laid down the gauntlet and said, maybe you ought to consider doing that if only to be a model of worship in your own home throughout, throughout the week. And I just thought, you know what? That's something we're thinking about. I think all of us have something there. And that might be for some, like, maybe it means strengthening your personal prayer closet. So like your example in time of, of corporate worship of your family is stronger. Maybe it means your study of the scriptures, not just of course for like pure devotional life, but to instruct or to practice that scripture for your family. So I, I take this point of, it's not just about the music, but it could be if you're, if you're looking and saying like, man, I wish that we had some music. Um, you, you possibly could be the music. And it's just something to think about. [00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'll say this. Uh, it's not that hard to play guitar, but Jesse is actually quite a talented guitar player, so even though he's right, it's not that difficult. Uh, Jesse is, uh, is much better than he's letting on. But yeah, I mean, most modern worship songs, um, you can get by, you might have to like find a version online of it in this key, and you might not be able to sing it in this key, but like GC, D and E Minor. Yeah, that's right. We'll get you, we will get you basically every major worship song that you're used to singing. And those are all very easy chords to play. Yes. Um, there are difficult chords and some, some worship songs are more difficult or the, the tone is more difficult. Um, but even, even something like that, or get a keyboard and just do, you know, you can just pluck out notes, right? You can write on the notes what the, what the name of the notes are and just pluck out notes so people can sing with it. Um, there are lots of ways you can do, get a kazoo. You could lead music, you could lead your, that's your family in worship with a kazoo, um, or get the Trinity Salter hymnal app. Like, it's, yes, there are many ways that you could incorporate music in your family devotions and your personal devotions that, um, are not that challenging and, uh, really do add a lot. Now, I know there are some, there are probably a few people in our, our listening audience that are acapella only people. And I respect that perspective and, and I understand where it comes from. But, um, even then, like this might also be a little bit of a hot take. I'm not an excellent singer. I'm not a terrible singer, but, um, I could be a better singer if I practiced a little bit. And with the, with the ease of finding things like YouTube vocal coaches and right, just like vocal lessons and techniques and practice. Cool. Like, you could very easily improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing, right? And that's only gonna help you to lead your family. I'll even throw this in there. Um. I'm in a congregation with lots and lots and lots of young families. There are five pregnant couples in our church right now. Wow. And our church, our church is probably only about 70 people on an average Sunday. So five pregnant, uh, couples is a pretty high percentage. Um, what I will tell you is that when the congregation is singing, we have lots of men who sing and they sing loud. But when the children are looking around at who is singing, they're not looking at the women, they're looking at the men. Right. Um, and you know, we're not, we are not like a hyper-masculinity podcast. We're not, you know, this isn't Michael Foster's show, this isn't the Art of Manhood. Um, but we've been pretty consistent. Like, men lead the way. That's the way the Bible has, that's way God's created it. And that's the way the Bible teaches it. And if you're in the church. You are commanded to sing. It's not an option. [00:32:28] The Importance of Singing in Church [00:32:28] Tony Arsenal: But what I will tell you is that, um, singing loud and singing confidently and singing clearly and helping the congregation to sing by being able to project your voice and sing competently, uh, it does a lot for your church. Yes. So it's never gonna be the wrong decision to improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing. So I think that's great. I think the whole thing is great. You can learn to sing by listening to Shane and Shane and singing with them, and you can Yes. Invest a little bit of time and maybe a little bit of money in, in like an online vocal. I mean, you can get something like Musician or something like that that has guitar, but also you can do vocal training through that. There's lots of resources out there to do that. So yes, I guess that's the challenge this week. Like, let's all get out there and improve our singing voices a little bit and, and see if we can, can do this together. [00:33:14] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. I, I don't wanna belabor the points. [00:33:16] Encouragement to Learn Musical Instruments [00:33:16] Jesse Schwamb: I only bring it up because there might be somebody out there that's thinking, you know, I'd like to do more of that. And I say to you, well, why not you? It's okay. Like you could just go and explore and try get or borrow a relatively inexpensive guitar. And like you said, you don't need to learn to read music to do that. You're just kind of learning some shapes and they correspond to certain letters in the alphabet. And in no time at all, you could be the person that's strumming out, eking out some chords and you're doing that at home. And that might be a great blessing. It might change your life. It might change the trajectory of how you serve in the church. And you might find that God has equipped you to do those things. Yeah. And wouldn't it be lovely just to try some of those things out? So whatever, whatever they are, it's certainly worth trying and, and music is a big part of, I know like your life. Mine and it is someday. Tony, we have to do the sing episode. I don't know that we've actually done that one, right? We just talk about what it like, is it a command that we sing and why I think we've [00:34:08] Tony Arsenal: done that. I think we did have, we, it's early on in the episode on our views. Might have changed a little bit. So we maybe should um, we should loop back to, I'm sure we talked about 'em when we were going through Colossians as well. [00:34:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think we did. I just dunno if we did, like, we're, we're just gonna set a whole hour aside and for us, that's definitely not an hour, but, and just talk about this in particular and like what, why do we sing and what, why does guy command this? And then why our voice is different and why do some people feel this, you know, sense of like why don't have a good voice and you know, we, you always hear people say like, well make a joyful noise. And I think sometimes that falls flax. You're kinda like, yeah, but you don't know the noise I'm making you. That's kind of the response you hear. So some someday we'll come back to it, but I'm gonna make a prophetic announcement that there is no way we're going get through this one parable. No already. So. [00:34:55] Introduction to the Parable of the Lost Sheep [00:34:55] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody strap in because we'll do probably a part one. And if you're curious about where we're going, we're moving just away from Matthew for now, we're gonna be hanging out in Luke 15. We've got a trio of parables about lost things. And again, I think this is gonna be very common to many people. So I encourage you as best you can, as we read these to always start our conversation, try to strip away what you've heard before and let's just listen to the scripture. [00:35:20] Reading and Analyzing the Parable [00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: So we're gonna start in Luke chapter 15 in verse one. I'm not even gonna give you the name of the parable because you will quickly discern which one it is. So this is the Luke chapter 15, beginning of verse one. Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Jesus to listen to him, and both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. So he told them this parable saying. What man among you, if he has 100 sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the 99 in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it. And when he is found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I found my lost sheep. I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repentance than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance. [00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And yeah, this, this will definitely be a multi-part episode. And, and part of that is we just spent a half an hour talking about affirmations and denials. I think we probably should have a podcast called Belaboring The Point, which is just us talking about other random stuff. Fair. [00:36:33] Comparing the Parable in Luke and Matthew [00:36:33] Tony Arsenal: But, um, the other part is that this parable is, um, slightly different in Luke as it is in Matthew. [00:36:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:36:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, and also it's positioning in the narrative and what comes immediately following it is different. And I think that's worth unpacking a little bit as we talk about it this week, next week and, and probably maybe even into a third week. Um, but the, the parable here on, on one level, like most parables is super, super straightforward, right? Like right. This is God's di, this is God's demeanor, and his disposition is that he seeks that which is lost, um, which is good news for us because all of us are lost. There's only lost people until God finds them. Right. Um, and find again, of course, is an accommodated way of saying it's not like God has to go out searching for us. He knows where we are and he knows how to find us. Um. But this is also a different format for a parable, right? He's, he's not saying the kingdom of heaven is like this. The parable is what man of you having a hundred sheep? Like the parable is a question Yes. Posed to the audience, and it, it is in the context here, and this is where, this is where looking at the parallels between different, different gospels and how it's presented and even the different variations here shows you, on one level it shows you that Jesus taught these parables in multiple different contexts and different occasions. Right? In this occasion, it's he's sitting down, he's with the tax collectors and the sinners. They're grumbling. They're saying, this man eats with sinners. And receives them in, um, in Matthew, it's slightly different, right? He's in a different context and sit in a different teaching context. So the way that we understand that is that Christ taught these parables multiple places. And so we should pay attention to the variation, not just because there's variation for variation's sake, but the way that they're positioned tells us something. So when he's telling the account in Luke, it's told as a corrective to the tax collectors and the um. Right on the Pharisees, um, who are, sorry. It's a, it's a corrective to the Pharisees and the scribes who are grumbling about the tax collectors and the sinners drawing near to Christ. And so he speaks to the Pharisees and to the scribes and is like, well, which one of you wouldn't go seek out their lost sheep? Like, it's this question that just lays bare. They're really sinful. Ridiculous Jonah. I just invented that. Like Jonah I perspective that like, oh, exactly how dare God go after how dare Christ eat with sinners and tax collectors? And he says, well, if you love something. If you love your sheep, you're going to go after your sheep. [00:39:03] The Deeper Meaning of the Parable [00:39:03] Tony Arsenal: You're not going to just abandon, uh, this sheep to its own devices, even though there is, and again, this is a, a comedy way of talking about like, even though there's some risk associated with going after the one sheep, because you do have to leave the 99, he still is saying like, this is the character. This is my character speaking as grace. This is my character. This is the character of my father. And there's this implication of like, and it's obviously not the character of you. So I think this is a, this is a really great parable to sort of highlight that feature of parables when they're repeated across different, um, gospels. We have to pay attention, not just to the words of the parables themselves, but what the teaching is in response to what the teaching like proceeds. We'll see when we look at Matthew, there's a very, there's a, a different. Flavor to the parable because of what he's going to be leading into in the teaching. So I love this stuff. This has been such a great series to sort of like work through this because you, you really start to get these fine details. [00:39:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This parable of the lost sheep is I think on the face straightforward, like you said. But it is actually complex. It's complex in the argumentation and the posturing Jesus takes here, like you said, he's binding the pharisee. This is condemning question of like which one of you, like you said. So there's that, which is slightly different element than we've seen or covered so far. There's also the context, like you said, in which it happens and I think we need to think specifically about. Who is this lost? Who are the 99? Who are the ones that Jesus is really trying to draw in with conviction, but also, again, what is he saying about himself? And it's way more, of course, like we're gonna say, well, this is again, that default, that heart posture. Even those things are more cliche than we mean them to be. Yeah. And we need to spend some time, I think, on all of these elements. And it starts with, at least in Luke, we get this really lovely context about when the teaching unfolds. And even that is worth just setting down some roots for for just a second. Because what I find interesting here is I think there's a principle at play that we see where. Everything that everything gives. Jesus glory, all the things give him glory, even when his enemies come before him and seek to label him. It's not as if Jesus appropriates that label, repurposes, it turns it for good. The very label, the things that they try to do to discredit him, to essentially disparage him, are the very things that make him who he is and show his loving and kindness to his people. And I think we'll come back to this like this, this sheep this, these are his children. So these words that it starts with, that were evidently spoken with surprise and scorn, certainly not with pleasure and admiration. These ignorant guides of the Jews could not understand a religious preacher having anything to do with what they perceive to be wicked people. Yeah. And yet their words worked for good. I mean, this is exactly like the theology of the cross. The very saying, which was meant for reproach, was adopted by Jesus as a true description of his ministry. It is true. He's the one who comes and sits and subs and communes and touches the sinners, the ugly, the unclean, the pariahs. It led to his speaking three of these particular parables in Luke in rapid succession. For him to emphasize that he's taken all of what was literally true that the scribes of Pharisees said, and to emphasize that he is indeed the one who received sinners. It's not like he's just like saying, well, lemme put that on and wear that as a badge. He's saying. You do not understand God if you think that God does not receive sinners, to pardon them, to sanctify them, to make them fit for heaven. It's his special office to do so. And this, I think therein lies this really dip deep and rich beauty of the gospel, that that's the end that he truly came into the world. [00:42:47] Christ's Joy in Finding the Lost [00:42:47] Jesse Schwamb: He came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. He came to the world to safe sinners, what he was upon Earth. He's now at the right hand of God and will be for all eternity. And he's emphatically the sinner's friend. And without this reproach from the Pharisees, like we don't get this particular teaching and what they intended again, to be used to really discredit God, to say, look, how can this be the son of God? What we get then for all of eternity is some understanding of Christ. And even here now with his word, we have this sense like, listen, do we feel bad? Do we feel wicked and guilty and deserving of God's wrath? Is there some remembrance of our past lives, the bitterness of sin to us? Is there some kind of recollection of our conduct for which we're ashamed? Then we are the very people who ought to apply to Christ. And Christ demonstrates that here, that his love is an act of love. Just as we are pleading nothing good of our own and making no useless delay, we come because of this teaching to Christ and will receive graciously his part in freely. He gives us eternal life. He's the one who sinners. I'm so thankful for this parable because it sets up very clearly who Jesus is, and this is where we can say he is for us. So let us not be lost for lack of applying to him that we may be saved. This text gives us the direct inroad to apply for that kind of healing and favor of God. [00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I love, um, there is such a, um, subtle sort of SmackDown that Jesus does. Like, yeah. I, I think, um, just speaking on a purely human level for a second, like Jesus is such a master re tion. Like he is so handy and capable to just dismantle and smack down people who, and I obviously, I don't mean that in like a sinful way. Like he just puts down the argument. He just gets it done with, and even the way this is phrased, right, they come, they're grumbling, this man receives sinners and meets with them. So he told them this par ball, what, what man of you having a hundred sheep, if he lost one of them, doesn't leave the 99 in the open country and go after the one that is lost, right? So he's saying like, he jumps in right away, like. This is just the obvious answer. This is just the obvious state, like who would not go after their sheep. I think we hear this, and again, I'm not an expert on like first century sheep herding practices, right? But like we think of it, I look at it, I'm like, actually, like that seems like a really bad investment. Like it would be really bad idea to go after the one sheep and leave your 99 in the open country. That seems like a silly answer. That's my error. That's me being wrong because he's saying that as the obvious answer. Right? I think we sometimes, um, I've heard, I've heard sermons that preach this, that make it almost like this is a super reckless. You know, abandonment. Like he's so enamored with us that he leaves the 99 and he goes after the one, and he's taking such a huge risk. But the way that this is presented, this is the obvious thing that anyone in their right mind would do if they lost a sheet. Right? For sure. Right? It's not an unusual response. Yes. There's an element of risk to that, and I think that's, that's part of the parable, right? There's a, there's a riskiness that he's adding to it because, um. Again, we wanna be careful how we say this. Um, God's love is not reckless in the sense that we would normally think about reckless, but it's reckless in the sense that it, it es assumes sort of ordinary conventions of safety. Right? Right. That's not really what's at play here. Like the, the fact is Christ presents the scenario where you, you go after one lost sheep and leave your 99 in the open country or in Matthew, it's on the mountains. Like that's the normal expected course here, such that if you are the person who won't do that, then you are the one that's out of the ordinary. But then he goes on to say, and this is where, where I think he's just such a master, he's such a master at setting a logical trap. Here he says, um. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I have found my sheep that was lost. And again, this is the expected answer. This is not some unusual situation where like people are like, oh man, he like, he had a party 'cause he found a sheep. That's strange. This is what, what would be expected, right? This would be the normal response. But then he says, just so I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance. He is able, in the course of like. 30 words, like this is a short, short response. He's able to show them that their response to, to sinners is totally out of the ordinary. Like it's a, it's sort of an insane response. Um, he positions going after the one sheep and leaving the 99 as the sane response and leaving the, you know, leaving the one to be lost, leaving the sinners and tax collectors to be lost. That's the insane response. Right. That's the one that like, nobody would do that though. Why would anybody do that? But then he goes to show like, but that's exactly what you're doing. [00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Right. And he [00:47:56] Tony Arsenal: says, what you should be doing is rejoicing with me for, I found my lost, she. Right. He shifts. He shifts. He's now the man in the parable saying, um, not just, uh, not just rejoice or not just I'm rejoicing, but he's summoning them to rejoice with him over the salvation of these lost sinners. And that is the normal expected response. And then he, he shows like there will be this rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents more so than if there was a, but, and we should address this too. He's not saying that there is a such thing as a righteous person who needs no repentance. Right? He's saying like, even if there were 99 righteous people who need to know repentance, even if that was somehow the case, there would be more joy. There is more joy, there will be more joy over the sinner who repents than over a hun 99 people who didn't need to be saved. Right? He makes the sin, the, the, um, Pharisees and the scribes look like total chumps and totally like. Totally self-absorbed and turned inwards on themselves in this tiny little master stroke that you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even think that that was part of the point. If it wasn't for the fact that it was positioned right after verse 15, one and two. You just wouldn't get that from this parable. That there is this sort of like rhetorical SmackDown going on that I think is, is important for us to, to latch onto a little bit here. [00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, why is our podcast not three hours? Because there's so much I want to say, so. I'm totally with you. I like what you brought up about this recklessness of God, and I'm with you. We shouldn't define that in the same way. Maybe we can modify it. I might say like His love is recklessly spend thrift. That is, we see when Paul says like God has lavished his love on us, like these big verbs that they are real. Yeah. It's not just hyper rip hyperbole or just like flowery language. And I think as you're speaking, what really occurred to me, what really kind of came through with what you're saying is, okay, what is this cost? Why is he so particular to go after this one? And I think it's because it's, he's looking for his sheep. So these are his children. Yes. It's not just, I think Christ is out in the world because he will find his children. He will find the one who is. His own. So he is looking for his own sheep. One of his, one of his fold. So like the sheep I might find in the world is the one that God has been seeking to save, even one of whom knows his name. That's like John 10, right? So one of, I think our problem is understanding this parable has to do with the when of our salvation. You know, we generally think it's at the time that, you know, we believe. The people are those given to God before the foundation of the world. And God sees us as his people before we were ever born, even before the world began. And when we believe it is just our Lord finding us as his last sheep and we're returned to the fold. So he always goes after that one. So we'll learn more. Like you said, when we look at Matthew's account about who are those other 90 nines. So we can set that aside, I suppose, for now. But it really is a matter of our status before Adam, before the fall, and then after Adam, after the fall, while all men fell with Adam. So also did God's people, which he had chosen before time began. And so this idea of going after the one is bringing back into the fold that who is his child though, who he has made a promise, a covenantal promise to bring into the kingdom of heaven. I was thinking as well of this amazing quote and like, what that all means about God's love for us, which again, is just more than like, isn't it nice that when you are out in the world somewhere like God came to find you? Yeah, that's fantastic. But I think it's even more than that. Like this is where I think we really need to dive into what it means that he's going after his sheep. It's, uh, Thomas Goodwin wrote this once about, uh, Christ's joy. He wrote this, Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged. By his showing grace and mercy in pardoning relieving and comforting his members here on earth. And what I hear in that is something that I think is wild. In other words, Jesus, I don't think, doesn't just want us to draw on his grace and mercy because it just vindicates atoning work. Because like if Vindicates that he is an act shepherd, his love is active, he's out there in the field, he's going after his own, he's like you said, he's laying them on our on his shoulders and then he comes back and rejoices. He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, that Goodwin is basically saying here that Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy. That is when he finds us, when he comes and celebrates that there's been restoration, that that celebration is real and that it forgives him and brings him great joy. What kind of love is that? [00:52:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:52:49] Jesse Schwamb: That that is so dedicated to seeking his children out. That his joy is made greater as it were, in a sense, by him very much doing that, and by us repenting and coming before him, such that Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or for renewed. Pardon? Or we find ourselves outside of the fold when we're distressed, when we have needs, when we're empty. I think this is the whole point of this parable. He comes to rescue us. He comes to heal over and over and over again because we are his children and he always goes and finds his own sheep. [00:53:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:53:28] Conclusion and Community Engagement [00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, well, as we said, this'll be a, uh, at least two part, probably three or four part episode. Yeah. Um, because it's so good. There's so much here and so good. You know, as we kind of alluded to when we were, we sort of introed this, this parable along with the, in Luke at least, along with the following one, and the one after that really are one set of teaching. Um, we are gonna jump into, into Matthew and how Matthew positions the parable a little bit differently. And I say that to say Christ positions the parable differently within his teaching. Um, but the variations are important and this is why, this is why God's word is so great, right? Yes. We could have just had like one version of this, one instance that this teaching was delivered, but God saw fit to preserve multiple, multiple applications of this one parable. And this also tells us that like. The people who wanna say that a parable only has one point. Um, I think maybe like the Bible itself is against you on that because this parable is ba more or less the same in Matthew in terms of the actual words. There's some minor variations, but there nothing substan substantively different in the words, but where it comes in the context of the teaching gives it a very different flavor. Not a different meaning entirely, but a very different flavor. So I'm excited to, to keep going on this. Um, we'll go through, we'll talk about the coin, we'll talk about the lost son, uh, the lost sons, the para prodigal, God. I mean that one has a thousand different ways to label it. Um, but I'm really stoked about this series so we don't have to spend a lot of time like landing the plane here 'cause we're not even gonna really land the plane. We're just gonna keep going. So we're cruising at 20,000 [00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: feet easy. [00:55:11] Tony Arsenal: So we would love it if you'd join us in our Telegram channel. We mentioned it earlier, but you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, that is just a little corner of the internet that we've sliced out. It's a little chat program that you can run on your phone or in a browser. Um, lots of different conversations happening at any given point, uh, but all of them are God centered. All of them Mar God glorifying, and it really is just a genuine, friendly place to be. There's not, uh, there's, there's been very little fighting or conflict. There's been almost nobody besides bots that get kicked outta the channel. Um, it's a very low key, very low chill, low risk environment. Low chill, uh, low chill. It's not low chill. It's high chill, high chill, uber chill. It's the uber chill, [00:55:53] Jesse Schwamb: uber chill. Um, [00:55:54] Tony Arsenal: but you can check it out. T Me slash reform brotherhood. We'd love to have you jump in the conversation. Um, you know, find some new food to taste and take a video of it, uh, of yourself. Or, you know, if you need prayer, there's a, there's a place for that. If you want some memes, there's a place for that. But check it out. [00:56:10] Jesse Schwamb: Normally, this is where I'd say, here's what we learned in this conversation, but since it's gonna be ongoing instead, I'm just gonna end with a little question for you, Tony. I'll ask it to you first and then I'll give you my answer and that, and I'll challenge everybody to answer this themselves. I think it'll help shape how we're just thought, think about what we just heard and also the couple weeks ahead. But, um, what's one time that you lost something and were overjoyed that you found it? So for me, and this I think generally. It's often small things. I remember this time I was going out for a run. My wife was shopping. Now I don't do this anymore, so don't anybody get ideas about this. But I used to, don't do this anymore. I used to take my keys 'cause I didn't wanna run with them, like, you know, banging around in my pants while I was running. I used to take them and put them under this like, medium-sized rock that was like right outside in the bushes by my, my house. And so I did that. I went for a run and I came back and I saw my wife Sky was here. And so I just went into the house. I guess I just realized I could go in the door, wasn't gonna be locked anymore. And then of course the next day I went to go to work and like lost my mind. I, I just couldn't remember where the keys were searched everywhere, like tore up everything. Made lots of accusations of myself and everybody else about whether to move the keys. Maybe you've had this experience, maybe it's just me that needs to be more sanctified. And so I remember when finally like it occurred to me like, oh. If they're outside, I went and grabbed them, you know, you turn over that rock and there they are in all their glory. They've never moved. They were there from the beginning. And I remember this vividly. My wife already like long left for work and I called her and I was like, I found the keys. I found the keys. I'm so happy. And she was just like, okay. It's just like, are you good now? I was like, yeah. And for her it was like, that's no real news to me. Like, okay, great. Like you lost them. I'm glad that you fought them. But it did exemplify for me that really in the finding of something that joy is made, consummate, incomplete in the rejoicing over it with somebody else. Yeah. [00:58:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Um, so let's say you can you think of like a time where like you lost something at big or small and then you were just overjoyed to find it? [00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: The only thing I can think of, um, we have this little Noah's arc kit, um, for, for the kids. And this was before Adeline, uh, came around. Um, and we lost the little Noah figure. We couldn't find it for a really, really long time. This is Noah. And, um, this was back when we were living in the parsonage. Augie was, uh, up jumping on the couch and he wanted to put the cushions down onto the floor in order to jump off the couch onto the floor. And when he pulled the cushion back, the little Noah figure was there and I was so excited to find it. And I was like, Augie, we found Mr. Noah. We found Mr. And the funny part is that. And I know why you're laughing so much. The funny part is that this was also being converted to text to speech somehow, and it got sent out to our entire family group chat. Um, so everybody got a good laugh outta that, but there was, and he was so excited. Uh, he doesn't even know who Mr. Noah is at this point, but he was excited that we found something. Um, and you know, there, there is also an element too that like sometimes something is lost and it changes the nature of things. Like for sure that Noah's arc kit was no longer Noah's a, it was just some animals on a boat. That's true. Until we found Mr. Noah and put it all back together. Um, so that's probably the, the example of that comes to mind for me. I'm sure there's a better one floating around in here somewhere, but I, I'm pretty sleep deprived right now, so. May not come to the surface too easily. [00:59:28] Jesse Schwamb: You, I, I really think it's the smaller things in particular that prove the point. It's an argument from the lesser to the greater. So in that vein, now it's your turn. So go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood. Hang out in the telegram chat. And I have no doubt this will be part of, uh, this week's discussion from the episode is tell us something that, tell us the story. 'cause you, we know you got one where you lost something that was yours. It was precious to you, no matter how valuable it was economically speaking, and you found it and you were overjoyed. And I think we got to tap into a little bit of that sensibility as we think about the weeks that are ahead for us. [01:00:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [01:00:04] Jesse Schwamb: But more than anything, I think we gotta remember from our conversation tonight that Christ love. Is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, the wailing is lost sheep and, and we're gonna see the same kind of behavior in the other peril, the parables that follow. So our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitting sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice. Let that be your encouragement this week. [01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to end the show. So, Jesse, until next week, honor everyone. [01:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Jesus's parable of the dragnet from Matthew 13:47-50. They examine how this often-overlooked parable reveals profound truths about God's kingdom, final judgment, and the ultimate separation of the righteous from the wicked. The hosts explore the rich Old Testament connections, particularly to Habakkuk, and demonstrate how this parable complements the parable of the wheat and tares while emphasizing the judgment aspect of God's kingdom. Through careful textual analysis and theological reflection, they remind listeners that God's sovereignty extends over both salvation and judgment, challenging believers to live faithfully in light of the coming sorting. Key Takeaways The kingdom of Heaven encompasses both salvation for the righteous and judgment for the wicked - it's not merely about blessing but also includes God's sovereign rule over all outcomes. The dragnet imagery teaches that no one will escape God's judgment - everyone will be gathered and sorted, with no possibility of evasion. Hell is not the "absence of God" but rather experiencing God's presence without His grace - the unmediated wrath of God upon sinners. Jesus's use of fishing and "clean/unclean" imagery connects to Old Testament purity laws, reinforcing the idea that only those cleansed by Christ will be kept. While the parable of the wheat and tares focuses on present patience, the dragnet emphasizes the future judgment and final separation. Old Testament connections, particularly from Habakkuk and Ezekiel, show how God has consistently used "net" imagery to describe His sovereign judgment. Careful meditation on Scripture, especially Jesus's parables, reveals profound theological truths that casual reading might miss. Expanded Explanations The Kingdom Encompasses Both Salvation and Judgment The hosts identify a paradigm-shifting perspective in this parable: the kingdom of Heaven includes not just the blessing of the righteous but also the judgment of the wicked. Tony notes that Christians often think of God's kingdom only in terms of the elect enjoying fellowship with God, but this parable reveals that God's sovereignty and kingship extend to His judgment as well. The dragnet gathers everything in its path - both the "good" and "bad" fish - demonstrating that all people will be brought under Christ's authority for evaluation. This understanding challenges the common notion that hell is somehow outside God's domain. Rather, even the punishment of the wicked falls under God's sovereign reign. This more comprehensive view of God's kingdom reminds believers that God's authority is absolute and extends to every corner of creation and every spiritual reality. The Inescapable Net of God's Judgment Jesse highlights how the specific term "dragnet" (as translated in the LSB) carries significant theological weight. Unlike a typical fishing net cast from a single location, a dragnet was stretched between two boats and systematically pulled toward shore, catching everything in its path. This imagery powerfully communicates that no one will escape God's judgment - the net catches all kinds of fish indiscriminately. The hosts connect this to Old Testament passages, particularly in Habakkuk, where God's judgment is described as a net that captures entire nations. This emphasis on the comprehensive nature of judgment confronts our culture's belief that individuals might somehow avoid accountability before God. The parable teaches that all people will face judgment, with the difference being not whether they are caught in the net, but how they are categorized once caught. For believers, this underscores the necessity of being found "in Christ" when the sorting occurs. Memorable Quotes "Either way, you can't escape the net. This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net." - Jesse Schwamb "Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? Unmediated... It's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners. That's what hell is." - Tony Arsenal "We gotta sit down at the table, take our time... Have the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time... We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture." - Jesse Schwamb Resources Mentioned Matthew 13:47-50 - The Parable of the Dragnet Habakkuk 1:14-17 - Old Testament "net" imagery Ezekiel 32:1-3 - God's judgment as a net Deuteronomy 14 - Clean and unclean animals The Legacy Standard Bible (LSB) - Recommended Bible translation "The Will of the Many" by James Islington "The Strength of the Few" by James Islington Reformed Brotherhood Telegram Channel - t.me/ReformBrotherhood Full Transcript [Full transcript available on our website]

In this thought-provoking episode, Tony and Jesse delve into Jesus's twin parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl of great price from Matthew 13:44-46. They explore the profound economic metaphor Jesus uses to illustrate the incomparable value of the Kingdom of Heaven. Through careful examination of both parables, they discuss what it means to "count the cost" of following Christ while simultaneously recognizing that no earthly sacrifice can compare to the infinite worth of gaining Christ. The conversation moves between practical application—considering how believers assess value in their spiritual lives—and deeper theological reflections on Christ's perfect sacrifice that makes our entrance into the Kingdom possible in the first place. Key Takeaways The Kingdom of Heaven has such surpassing value that sacrificing everything to obtain it is considered a joyful exchange, not a loss. Both parables show different paths to discovering the Kingdom (unexpected finding vs. intentional seeking), but identical responses: selling everything to obtain the treasure. The parables are not primarily commanding material poverty, but rather illustrating the "sold-outness" required in pursuing the Kingdom of God. Counting the cost of discipleship is not only permissible but necessary to fully appreciate the value of what we gain in Christ. The ultimate treasure we receive in salvation is not merely benefits like eternal life, but God Himself—union with Christ and fellowship with the Trinity. Christ Himself is the one who ultimately fulfills these parables perfectly, giving everything to purchase us as His treasure. The irresistible draw of the Kingdom illustrates how God's grace works in the heart of believers, compelling joyful surrender. Exploring the Incomparable Value of the Kingdom The economic metaphor Jesus employs in these parables is striking—both the hidden treasure and the pearl are deemed so valuable that the discoverers "sell all they have" to obtain them. As Tony and Jesse point out, this transaction reveals something profound about how we should view the Kingdom of Heaven. It's not simply that the Kingdom is valuable; it's that its value so far exceeds anything else we possess that the comparison becomes almost absurd. As Tony notes, "For sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine... there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how worthwhile it is." This perspective transforms how we understand sacrifice in the Christian life. When opportunities or comforts are foregone because of our faith, we're not simply losing something—we're experiencing the reality that we've chosen something infinitely more valuable. The parables teach us to view these moments not with regret but with a clearer vision of the treasure we've received in Christ. The Ultimate Prize: God Himself Perhaps the most powerful insight from the discussion is the realization that the ultimate treasure of salvation is not the benefits we receive, but God Himself. As Tony eloquently states: "All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God... we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that." This perspective reshapes how we understand the value proposition of the gospel. It's not merely that we receive eternal life, freedom from suffering, or other benefits—though these are real. The pearl of great price is relationship with God Himself. This helps explain why both men in the parables respond with such dramatic, all-encompassing sacrifice. When we truly grasp what's being offered, nothing seems too great a price to pay. Memorable Quotes "What we get in salvation ultimately is we get God. We get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that." — Tony Arsenal "I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value... it's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We'll just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it." — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us. And we, we become a part of that. We get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that. [00:00:47] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 469 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Discussing the Value of the Kingdom of Heaven [00:01:00] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, we're back at it again with a whole new, or let's say different parable from our Lord and Savior Jesus. And we've been talking about how really these parables give us this view of the face of heaven through these earthly glasses. And I am pretty interested in our conversation about what's coming up because sometimes we don't like to put too fine a points to our, our point of question to our faith. And in this case, we're gonna get to ask the question, what is it all worth, this kingdom of heaven, this rule and reign of Christ? What is it all about? Who are the beneficiaries of it? And what is it all actually worth? There's a little bit of economics in this, so we're gonna get there. And while we talk and do a little affirming or denying, you should just go ahead write to just skip, go. Do not collect $200 or maybe. Pass, go and collect $200. I dunno. But just go to Matthew chapter 13 and hang out there for just a second. Affirmations and Denials [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: But first, I'm always curious to know whenever we talk, are you gonna affirm with something or are you gonna die against something? We've been on a string of lots of affirmations, but I'd like to think that's just because we're fun, loving, optimistic people. But there was a day where we had to do both. And now that I only have to choose one, I do find myself gravitating almost naturally toward the affirming width. But I leave it to you, Tony, are you affirming with or denying against? [00:02:22] Tony Arsenal: I, unfortunately am denying tonight. Technical Issues with Apple Podcasts [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: So you and I already talked about it a little bit, but uh, I'm denying Apple Podcast Connect. Oh yes. So, uh, I. Obviously, like if you're affected by this, you're not hearing the episode 'cause it's not updating for you. But, uh, if you happen to be using Apple to listen to the podcast and for some reason you're listening somewhere else, maybe you realize that the podcast has not been updating for several weeks. And so you went to a different podcast catcher. Um, apple just decided for some reason that none of our feeds were gonna update. No good reason. So I've got a ticket out to Apple and hopefully we'll get it fixed. Uh, if you do know someone who listens to the show and they use Apple, please tell them to subscribe to something else or to, uh, go to the website. You can get all of the, all of the episodes on our website. You could go to Spotify, you could do something like, uh, overcast or PocketCasts. Um, it really is just Apple. It's, it's the actual account that we use to, uh, to access. Apple's Directory is not pulling new episodes and it's not pulling new episodes on another show that I run as well. So, uh, it's not just this show, it's not our RSS feed. These things happen. It'll, you know, you'll get four or five episodes all at one time. When it, when it corrects itself, usually they're pretty quick. I put in a ticket like late on Friday afternoon, so I didn't expect them to get to it on, uh, Saturday or Sunday. So hopefully by the time you're hearing this, uh, it's resolved. I would hope so, because that means it would be about a week from today. Um, so hopefully they'll have a resolve. But yeah, it's just th thorns and thistles. This is our own, our own, uh, manifestation of the curse here in this little labor that we do. It's, it's thorns and thistles right now, but no big deal. Just, uh, catch up when you can. And, uh, yeah, so denying Apple Podcasts now, really, it's, it's a great service and this is a, a little glitch. It's, it's just a little frustrating. [00:04:20] Jesse Schwamb: The sweat of our brow. Yes. Here it is. We're just toiling over getting Apple to please release our episodes. Well, it'll be your happy day if you use Apple Podcasts and then get a bunch of them all at once. That's fantastic. It's like the gift that is over in abundance. Supporting The Reformed Brotherhood [00:04:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is a good reminder that you just said, Tony, that everybody should go, just take some time. Head on over to our form brotherhood.com. You can find all the other 400 some odd episodes living over there. And while you're over there and you're perusing or searching by topic to see what we've talked about before, you're probably gonna think to yourself, this is so incredible. How is this compendium, this omnibus of all these episodes just hanging out here free of cost? And I'm so glad you're thinking about that because there are so many lovely brothers and sisters who have decided just to give a little bit to make sure that all that stuff gets hosted for free for you Yeah. And for us, so that anybody can go and explore it and find content that we hope will be edifying. So if that's something you're interested in, maybe you've been listening for a while and thought, you know what? I would like to give a little bit one time or reoccurring, we would love to, for you to join us in that mission. You can go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and there's all the information for you to give if that's something that you feel you would like to do, and we would be grateful for you to do it. [00:05:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have a group of people who support the show. They make it possible for your, uh, your ear holes to be filled with our voices. And, uh, but again, you know, the costs are going up all around and, and we would, uh, certainly love to have people partner with us. Um, we've committed to making show that the, making sure that the show is free and available. Um, it's never our intention to put anything behind a paywall or to, to barrier and in that way, but we can only do that if there's people who are supporting the show and making, making sure that we've got the funding that we need to, to keep going. So, thank you to everybody who gives, thank you to anyone who's considering it, uh, and thanking anybody who decides to, uh, jump on board with that. [00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. We're appreciative who we really are. [00:06:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today? Exploring Open Webcam DB [00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is what I've kind of done before, but I think I've found a new place for it. I just am continually impressed and fall in love with how great and big and lovely God's world is. So I love these types of sites that give you insight into this great big world, even if it's in unexpected places or maybe in strange places. So I'm affirming with a website called Open webcam db.com. Open webcam db.com. And it's exactly like what it sounds like. It's a database that has something like 2000 live cameras streaming daily from over 50 countries, all searchable by a category. So you can find natural landscapes, airports, construction sites, and one of my recent favorites, honestly, and this is. It's so strange, but kind of awesome is this warehouse, it's called Chinese Robotic Warehouse Buzz, and it's just robots moving pallets around or like stacks of all of these items. It's mesmerizing. But I would encourage you go to open webcam db.com, search for like your stage or your country. You'll find so many amazing things. So I've sat and just watched, you know, between tasks or when you know you just need a break or you're just curious about the world. Like I look, I watched the Krakow Maine Market Square quite a bit because it's. Beautiful and brilliant, and to think about the people moving to and fro and what they're doing, what their lives are like. There's some great scenes from San Francisco Bay. There is a bird feeder in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania that I often watch. So of course, like go out as we've said, and live and breathe and be in your own communities. And as well, if you're looking at scratch that itch of just seeing all these different places, all the different things that are happening in God's created world, I can firmly and unreservedly recommend open webcam db.com for that. [00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Nice, nice, uh, little known fact at one point, Dartmouth Hitchcock, which is the hospital that I worked for, had to block a penguin cam, uh, because it was causing such a productivity drain combined with an actual measurable decrease in internet bandwidth at the hospital. 'cause so many people were watching this little penguin cam at some zoo in Boston. I think it probably was. Yeah, I, I love this kind of stuff. I think this kind of stuff is great. Uh, I use, uh, Dartmouth College has a, like a live one that I use all the time, especially when we're trying to figure out what the weather's gonna do. You can see it on the camera. Uh, we, we often will, you know, see, especially as we get closer to the season when we're talking about traveling to the beach and whatnot, uh, often look at the ocean grove. Oh, that's right. Uh, pier cam. So yeah, check it out. Uh, sounds like a fun time. Do not share it with too many of your friends at work. Or it may crash the network and Yeah. But [00:08:53] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, for [00:08:54] Tony Arsenal: sure. That was a funny email that they had to send out. I remember that [00:08:57] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. Use, use the penguin cam responsibly. I just did a quick search. There are four different penguin cams. Uh, three of them are in the United States, one is in New Zealand, and you better believe I'm gonna be checking those bad boys out. Yes. I didn't even think about. The penguin feature here and penguins are an amazing animal. Like we could stop right now and just shift our topic to penguins if you want to. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. ' [00:09:16] Jesse Schwamb: cause there's so much there. And the spiritual truths are so broad and deep, but I just think penguins are kind of undervalued. Birds. Everybody should go check them out. [00:09:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're pretty cool. [00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Um, I'm like, I will watch any Penguin documentary and just be astounded by Penguin. Like, whether they're Emperor Penguins or South African Penguin, wherever. I just think they're phenomenal and hilarious and seem to be living the dream. And he doesn't want a little bit of that. [00:09:46] Tony Arsenal: You just gotta get Morgan Freeman to do the voiceover in any documentary or, or nature documentary is better with Morgan Freeman doing the voiceover. [00:09:55] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I all, this might be a deep cut real quick, but I just learned this, and I'm guessing some of our listening brothers and sisters probably already know this. Maybe you do too, Tony. So, Benedict Cumberbatch, do you know where I'm going with this? Yep, [00:10:06] Tony Arsenal: yep. Pen wing. [00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I didn't. I cannot say that word or stumbles over its pronunciation. He did some kind of big documentary in which Penguins played at least some part. Yeah. And they were in an interview. They were giving him such a hard time because they played his reading of it like within the same kind of five minutes. And his, the word just kept degenerating in his mouth every time he said it. So it became like almost undistinguishable from the actual word. And it's like initial pronunciation. It was so hilarious. Apparently it's a big joke on the internet and I just didn't know it. [00:10:38] Tony Arsenal: Especially for someone like Bent Cumberbatch who just is, uh, like he's a world-class voice actor. [00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And like a super smart ude guy and he just can't say the word penguin and penguin. Yeah. [00:10:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. He said, you got everybody go look it up. 'cause it is super hilarious. And now it's kind of gotten stuck in my head. But um, again, this suddenly became like the All Penguin episode all of a sudden. [00:11:01] Tony Arsenal: I mean like, he can pronounce his own last name just fine, but the word penguin escapes him. I like to call 'em blueberry crumble bottom or whatever. Crumble bunch. [00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, see that's the good stuff right there. That's what everybody we know. This is what you all tune in for. This is what you're missing when Apple Podcast doesn't send everything out on time. Yeah. You're welcome. [00:11:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. The Parable of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl [00:11:23] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, why don't we, why don't we get into it? Because you know it, it's interesting. Let's [00:11:27] Jesse Schwamb: get into it. [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, it's interesting because when you, you know, you kind of, we, we sort of do the little lead to the episode and I, I suddenly realized that I think I've been interpreting this parable very differently than maybe you have or other people. Great. Do, uh, because I, I think I, I think I might have a different take on it. Let, let's do it. Yeah. So let's get into it. Uh, do you have the, the text in friend you wanna read? Uh, why don't we just do 44 all the way through 46? We'll do both parables in one reading. We'll come back and talk about it. [00:11:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Sorry, everybody. So here's a two for one for you. Beginning in where we're in verse 44 of Matthew chapter 13. This is Jesus speaking. The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field again. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. Interpreting the Parables [00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: I think maybe this is the, like the beauty of parables, uh, when Christ doesn't give us a interpretation. I, I think we're, we're, we're not free to like make up whatever we want, but these kinds of teaching tools are useful because the fact that there can be multiple interpretations actually is, is probably intentional. [00:12:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:12:43] Tony Arsenal: So it's funny because I think when you intro the episode here, it sounds like you're going to the kingdom of Heaven being a treasure hidden in a field, being something that we should sell everything we have and go after. And when I read this, I read it as the kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden a field. And the man who is Jesus goes and sells all that. He has. He gives all that he has and buys the field. So, and I, I think this is one of those ones where like. Probably both of those things are in play. Sure. But it's interesting 'cause I've never, I've never really read this and thought about myself as the person who buys the field. [00:13:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Interesting. [00:13:20] Tony Arsenal: I've probably heard sermons or read devotionals where people have said that and it just never clicked. And it didn't register until just now. And you were, when you were, uh, introing the parable that maybe you are the, maybe your way of introing your, your interpretation. Maybe that's the dominant one. So I, I looked at a couple quick, um, commentaries while you were speaking and I didn't get a chance to do my commentary reading before the episode. It seems like I'm the weird one. So, but it's interesting, um, 'cause again, I think that's the, kind of the beauty of parables is that sometimes the, the, um. Ambiguity of what the possible meaning could be, probably plays into the, the, um, teaching technique itself. [00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I, I think that's fair. I totally can take and understand what your perspective is on this. What I find interesting is that these, we've got these two abutting each other, like the cheek to cheek parallel approach here, and in doing so, there seems to be like kind of an interesting comparison between the two. Actors in this. And I think we should get into that. Like why in one case Jesus is talking about a person who finds this in a field, which by the way, I think the, the thing that jumps out to me first about that person is this person doesn't actually own the field at first. Right. That the treasure is in. So that is interesting. I'm totally with you. But then the second one, so in the first one there's kinda almost like this sense, and I don't wanna like push this too far, but that this person who finds this treasure does so very unexpectedly, perhaps like he's even the hired hand and of course not the one who owns the field. [00:14:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:14:49] Jesse Schwamb: And in the second case, we have somebody who almost is volitionally looking for this thing of great value, but finds the one thing above all the other things that they're used to looking for that clearly has the greatest and most. You know, essential worth and therefore the end is always the same in both of 'em. They give everything they have. They're willing for forsake all other things with great joy, recognizing the great value that's in front of them. I think there is a place to understand that as Christ acting in those ways. I think there's also interesting, again, this comparison between these two people. So I'm seeing this as we've got these varied beneficiaries of the kingdom. They both come to this place of the incomparable value of the kingdom, but then there's also like this expulsive power of the kingdom. All, all of that's, I think in there, and again, these are really, really, really brilliant, I think, because the more that you spend time meditating on these, the layers just kind of come and they fall away and you start to really consider, well, why again is Jesus using these two different characters? Why is he using this kinda different sense of things of, of worth what the people are actually after? I think all of it's in play. You're totally right. [00:15:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. The Cost and Value of the Kingdom of Heaven [00:15:55] Tony Arsenal: So I think, you know, when we think about the kingdom of heaven, when we think about these perils, we made this point last week, we shouldn't, um, we shouldn't restrict, we have to be careful not to restrict the comparison to just like the first noun that comes up, [00:16:08] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:16:08] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure, it, it is like a treasure, but it's like a treasure that's hidden in a field. Yes. And it's not just like a treasure that's hidden in a field, it's a treasure that's hidden in a field which a man found and covered up. Right? So, so like we have to look at that whole sequence. And I think, I think, um, you know, obviously like the, the interpretation that we are the, we're the man who finds the kingdom of heaven and we, you know, we go and buy the field. Um, that, that obviously makes perfect sense now that I'm looking at a few different commentaries. It seems to be the predominant way that this gets interpreted. And we, we look at it and we say, what, well, what does this mean for like our Christian life? Like. What does it mean? Do we have to, do we have to give everything away? Do we have to sell everything we have? Is that the point of the parable? I think some people make that the point of the parable. Um, I'm not convinced that that actually is the point of the parable. Um, because it, you know, it, it, it just, there's lots in the scripture that, that, uh, doesn't seem to require that Christians automatically like, give away everything they have. Um, maybe that's your calling. Maybe it is something that God's calling you to do to sort of, um, divest yourself of your, your belongings, either to sort of fight materialism or greed or, or just because like you're gonna need to have that fluidity and liquidity to your assets 'cause you're gonna need to move around or whatever it is. But I don't think we look at this parable and have like a, like a, a command for a life of poverty or something like that. Right. Um, really this is more about the. Utter sold outness of the Christian to pursue and seek the kingdom of God. [00:17:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right. [00:17:49] Tony Arsenal: And and I think that that's the same in both, even though the way that the person in the parables comes a, comes across the kingdom or they come across this, this thing of great value or thing of great price, that they find their response in both parables is the same. And to me, that that actually tells me that that's more the point of these parables. Um, or, or maybe we shouldn't even think of these as two parables, right? Some of the introductory language that we see in when we transition from one parable to another, we don't really see that here. Uh, and if, if we're gonna follow that, actually we would be going to the next parable would also kind of fall into this. But he says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure. And then in 45 he says, again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. We're gonna run into something like this later on when we get to like the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of lost coins. Where there are these distinct parables, but they're kind of stacked on top of each other in order to make a specific point. All of the parables that are sort of in these parable stacks are making the same point. And so I think it's not so much about like, how do we find the Kingdom of Heaven or how do we come upon the kingdom of heaven? It's more about what do we do once we've come upon it? Once we've thrown it's, that's the point of the parable that we need to unpack. [00:19:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And I would add to that, like who is it that is the beneficiary of this kingdom? We have two different, very different individuals, which I, again, I think, we'll, we'll talk a little bit about, but I'm totally with you. I, I think it's, it's easier, it's almost too narrow and too easy to say. Well, this is really just about like physical ma or about wealth. Like in some way the, what we're being taught here is that you have to get rid of everything of value in exchange for this. In some ways, that almost feels too transactional, doesn't it? As if like what, what we need to do is really buy the kingdom. We express our seriousness about this kingdom or the rule and reign of God by somehow just giving up everything that we own as if to prove that we're really worthy of receiving that kingdom that we prayed enough. Right. That we've done enough, even though that we're contrite enough. Yeah. And all that stands like in direct opposition to the mercy and grace, which God gives to us through his son by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring us into this kingdom. So we know it can't really be about that. And so that leads me back again to just like the lovely details here. And like you've already said in the first case, here's what really strikes me is. For probably most of us in the West, this idea of treasure is novel and maybe romantic. There's a adventure and an energy to it. Because we've all heard stories about this, whether it's like, I don't know, pirates of the Caribbean or the county Mount Cristo. Like there's something about treasure finding some kind of, or national treasure. Sorry, that just came to my mind. Like I couldn't go any further without mentioning Nick Cage. So you know, like there's something there that pulls us in that finding this thing almost unexpectedly in a hidden place of immense worth and value is, has a real draw to it. But I imagine that in Palestine being like a war torn region in Jesus' day, in the way people might store goods of great value in the fields they own. And then of course the owner may never be able to achieve for lots of reasons, including death. And then somebody might stumble upon it. And as I understand the, the laws there, of course, if you were to stumble upon something. I was in somebody else's property and and on earth that thing take it out of the ground. In this case, you would be by law required to bring that back to the person who owned the field. So there's something interesting here that this first person, probably the more meager and humble of the two with they at least respected, like their socioeconomic status is let's, we could presume maybe going about their normal work. They find this unexpectedly in the field and it's immediately recognized to be something of great value that it is to stop and to, again, there's like a measuring that happens behind the scenes. This person at least is measuring of all the things that I own, all things I could possibly own. The better thing for me to do is to consolidate all the rest of my wealth. And this case, again, it's not the message of the story to do this, it's the exemplification of what's happening here. This person is so sold out to ensure that they acquire this great treasure that they stumbled upon, that they will take literally everything else of value that they own to exchange it for this very thing. So I'm totally with you because I think the predominant message here is not like take all your wealth and make sure that you give it to the church or that it goes to ministry or to missions. That may all be well and good and it may all be the kind of calling that you receive. However, I think the principle message here is the kingdom of God is so valuable that losing everything on earth, but getting the kingdom is a happy trade off. Like that's actually a really, really good deal. And so having the omnipotent saving reign of Christ in our lives is so valuable that if, if we lose everything in order to have it, it would be a joyful sacrifice. [00:22:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, I think there is a level of. Encouragement in Sacrifice and Joy in the Kingdom [00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: Sacrifice that happens for every Christian and. I mean, I, I know there's a lot of people who they, uh, come to faith as young children and we've kind of talked about that as like, that's that testimony that, you know, I think everybody really wants is like they wish they never had a time that they didn't know Jesus and Right. I don't know any parent that I've ever spoken to, and I'm certainly not any different here that doesn't want that testimony for Jesus, but, or for, for their kids in their relationship with Jesus. But. I think most people who come to faith at some point in their life when they're able to remember it, like they, they have a conscious memory of their conversion experience. There is this sort of sense of sacrifice and e even a sort of a sense of loss. Um, I think there, there are times where, and, and you know, I think maybe, um, even people who've always been in the faith, um, they probably can resonate with this. I think there are times when we might look at how our lives could have been different or could be different if we weren't in the faith. Um, and, and sometimes there's a sort of wistfulness to that. Like being a Christian can sometimes be difficult right On, um, you know, maybe you miss a promotion opportunity because you're not willing to work on the Lord's day or because you're not willing to do something unethical. Like you, you miss out on some sort of advancement and you think, well, if I could just, you know, if I could have just gotten past that, like my life would be much different. And what this parable teaches us is. That's an understandable, like that's an understandable emotion or response. Um, and there is this weighing of the cost. And in the parable here, he, like you said, there's this calculation that goes on in the background. He finds this treasure, he makes the calculation that to have this treasure is worth. Everything it's worth everything he has. He sells everything he has, and he buys the field in order to get the treasure right. And, and there's some interesting textual dynamics going on through this chapter. We've talked about how the parables kind of like the imagery across the parables in chapter 13 here of Matthew, they kind of flip certain figures around and almost, it's almost intentional because he is getting the treasure and the treasure. The kingdom of heaven here is like the treasure, but he's also getting the field right. And the kingdom of heaven is, is the field in other parables. Um, but this, this calculation that happens, um. I don't know, maybe my heart is just sensitive to this right now. I, I, I, I feel like a lot of times we look at that sort of wis wistful second glance at what could have been if we were not Christians, and we automatically feel like that's gotta be a sinful impulse. Like, how could I ever even consider what life might have been? Like this parable implies that that's the thing we actually have to do. You have to know and consider what it is you've sacrificed or will be sacrificing in order to make this transaction happen. You can't just blanketly say like, oh, of course. You know, you've gotta, you've gotta count the cost, as it were, and then you have to actually make the purchase. So I think we should look at this as a source of encouragement. Um, like I said, I'm not sure why. I feel like maybe there's, maybe there's just a, a. I dunno, I'm feeling a little weird and charismatic right now. I feel like this is something that I definitely need to be saying, like, I feel like someone needs to hear this. Maybe it's just me that needs to hear this. And that's, I'm tricking myself by thinking of someone else. But we are able, as Christians, I think God permits us and in some sense, maybe even expects and commands us to recognize what we have given to be Christians in order that we might realize how much we have gained with that transaction. It's not just this like remorse or regret, um, for the sake of remorse or regret. It's to be able to see how good and how beautiful and how worth it is the kingdom of God, uh, to, to, to claim that. [00:26:23] Jesse Schwamb: I like that there is a great discipline and a great joy in remembering worth and worthiness. So there's gonna be times, like you said, when it's hard and if you look back, look back at the ministry of Jesus, I've often thought that he's like a poor evangelizer from like modern standards. Yeah. Because often people come to him and say things like. I, I wanna be part of the kingdom of God. Well, what do I need to do to enter the kingdom of God? And here you have like a seemingly a willing convert. And he always says things like this, like, you gotta go count the cost. Yeah. Like is, is this worth it to you? Like you have to deny yourself, you have to hate your own father and your mother, and your wife and children, and brothers and sisters, even your own life. Otherwise you cannot be my disciple. And in this kind of language, it's clear that Jesus is saying you fail often. And maybe this goes back like you're saying, Tony, it's like the parable of the soil that you fail to really take into account what it means to follow with full fidelity, to commit yourself in a fully unencumbered way. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to consider that? And as human beings, we're just not good often at counting costs. We're not good at thinking about opportunity costs. And it's interesting here that we're called out to say, even if you've already purchased the field as so to speak, that as if you've been saved by Christ, to continue to remember how good it is to be in the kingdom of God. And that the joy. Of knowing as like the Heidelberg Catechism says in the first question that all things are subservient to our salvation. Yeah. That incredible worth of, that should be a source of encouragement in times of great trial and tribulation, no matter how big or small, so that this joy that this person has when they go and sells everything he has and he buys this field, you know those details, like you're saying, do press us. It really comes to us with this idea that we should be able to see plainly why having Christ is more valuable than all other things. If the omnipotence all wise, God is ruling, ruling over all things for our joy, then everything must be working for our good, no matter how painful and in the end, God is gonna triumph over all evil and all pain. So this kingdom is a real treasure. Like it is a, it is a real. A real quantity in our life and our wellbeing and in our spiritual consistency, that'll ought demand some reflection of how valuable it truly is. And then knowing that in our minds, that like influencing our behavior, our other thought patterns, and then our actual feelings about stuff. So that when, like you said, we're passed over, we're looked over, we're ridiculed for something, we go back and we count it all joy to be worthy of being part of God's kingdom, knowing that it was because of the entrance and acceptability and the identity in that kingdom that we experience. Those things, those hardships begin with. [00:29:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, um, I don't want us to miss out on the fact that even as the parable may be encouraging or forcing us to think about. The cost. It, it really is trying to emphasize the great value of the kingdom. Right? Right. We, like I said, we, we don't just count the cost. In order to count the cost for its own sake. We count the cost in order to understand the great blessing that is ours in Christ. Right. All I, I count all that I have as a loss compared to the greatness of Christ Jesus. And, um, I think we just don't often do that. I, I, I think as Christians, that's probably a thought that is in our head more as young Christians, especially if we come to the faith in, in a time in our life where we're aware of things like that. We think about things like that. Reflecting on the Cost of Faith [00:29:59] Tony Arsenal: You know, I was 15 when I first came to faith and, um, I, I don't think I was in a frame of mind as a 15-year-old boy to think about, like. The cost of what I was doing, right? It's not like I was a particularly popular kid. I didn't have a, you know, I didn't, I wasn't unpopular, but it wasn't like I lost a ton of friends when I became a Christian. I didn't really lose anything that was measurable. Um, but I do think that, as, you know, someone now in my forties, looking back at, you know, 15, 20, 25 years of, of Christian life, it's easy to see that things could have been different on a sort of temporal scale. Like my, my life could probably be more comfortable in terms of wealth or opportunities or other things that might, uh, aren't, aren't even bad things necessarily. There is a sense of sacrifice. But again, God has brought us into this kingdom and he's given us parables like this and given us the ability to recognize. That we do have a cost, that there is a cost to be counted in order that we might now look at it and praise him for how great and glorious and valuable the gift that he's given us is. Understanding the Parable of the Pearl [00:31:08] Tony Arsenal: And so I think, you know, I think that's the same basic meaning of this second, second half of the same parable. I guess the, the pearl of great price or the pearl of great value. But it's not exactly the same, right? It's not like Christ is just repeating the same ver, you know, parable with, with different words for variation. Um, every word is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching correction, reproof, and training and righteousness. And I had a, I had a prophet in, uh, in Bible college who would say like, difference means difference. And he was often talking about like minute things, like the difference, um, or why, why is this word used instead of that word? This word would've worked. And, and the author chose that one. There's a reason for that. Difference means difference, but. Christ here chooses to, to tell the parable a second time, um, in a slightly different way. Uh, and Matthew chooses to record these in the same sense next to each other in slightly different ways. So what, what do we, what do we wanna pull out of this second parable that's different and what do we think it's telling us that's a little bit different than the first version Y? [00:32:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's a great question. Diverse Approaches to the Kingdom of Heaven [00:32:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, I love this idea because not until really, I was thinking about it this week when I read through them, was I really, again, drawn to the differences between these two main characters. Interestingly, I think in both, and we can make the case that the, the treasure, the kingdom of heaven here represented in both this pearl or in this literal treasure is in a way hidden. Certainly the first man is not necessarily looking for, it's still revealed to him, but the second in a way. And on the other hand, he knew this guy knows treasure. He's been seeking it with diligence in vigor, or at least like this is what he does for a living in his vocational career. He's out there trading pearls, presumably, and he knows something about them and how to evaluate them effectively. And so it's his business and he's dedicated himself to finding them. And apparently he's seen plenty of them over the years. But then all of a sudden, and this is wild, the beautiful, all of a sudden, clearly the search comes to like an abrupt end because he finds this one of immeasurable value, so much beauty exceeding and value exceeding all the other ones. And he doesn't need to search anymore. He just finds the one pearl that he can retire on a pearl with more than everything else. Or anything else that he's ever possessed and he gets it again. He does. And this brings him into symbol two with the first man. He does the same thing, then liquidate everything else and go after this one. Great pearl. So to me, and I'm curious your perspective on this, I'm not necessarily promulgating that. Well, the first one is not a seeker and the second one is like a seeker of of God things. Right? There is though, like you said, a difference in their approach and what they're after. And so I think what we can take from this, at the very least, is that there is diversity in these beneficiaries of the kingdom of God that's covering everybody. And just by these two kind of bookended or polar examples, that's what Jesus draws us to. But I would turn the question back to you. What do you think about this second guy? What do you think about the fact that his business is searching after these things? What? What do we take away from that? [00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. The Ultimate Value of the Kingdom [00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: And you know, the thing that drop that jumps out to me immediately in the first parable, the kingdom of heaven is, is like the treasure hidden in the field, [00:34:16] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:34:16] Tony Arsenal: In the second one, the kingdom of heaven is the merchant who's searching, [00:34:20] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:34:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. The kingdom of heaven is like the merchant in search of fine pearls who finds one. That's right. And so I think that they kind of are like, almost like mirror images of each other, right? One of them is about the treasure and what it takes to come upon it and then obtain it. The second is about the person who is coming upon the treasure and, and finding it. And then what it takes again to obtain that treasure. And I think, I think you're right, there is an element here that. Um, in this second parable, the person who is seeking for this treasure is one he's seeking for the treasure, right? Right. You get the image in this, in this first parable that the dude just kind of stumbles upon it. Um, I've heard this Todd as like, it's actually more like a guy who's just walking through a field rather than like a person working the field. And I'm not sure that matters that much, but there is this sense in the first parable that the guy kind of stumbles upon it. He wasn't looking, it wasn't what he was trying to do, but you're right in the second one, the kingdom of heaven, and this is where I, this is where I think I need to think more about it, is what does it mean for the kingdom of heaven to be like a merchant searching for fine pearls right [00:35:23] Jesse Schwamb: on. [00:35:23] Tony Arsenal: Rather than the pearls being the kingdom of heaven, which is what we see in the first bearable. Um, and I don't know the answer to that question. I think I need to, need to think about it and study it a little bit more. But I do like this distinction that in, in the first case, it's sort of a happy accident. And in the second case, this is, this is the life, this man's life work. He finds he's, he's in search of fine pearls. I'm not sure I know exactly what he's trying to do with the fine pearls. It seems like it implies that he's a pearl merchant or a pearl trader, but then he finds this pearl. He doesn't seek to sell it. He buys it. Right. [00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:36:00] Tony Arsenal: And, and the, the, the fact that the parable stops with him buying it sort of implies that like. He actually is not going to sell it. He's just gonna keep this pearl. Now before the, the pearls, the, the source of the value of the pearls was kind of in the, the financial gain that selling or trading them could bring. But now he suddenly finds this pearl that is so valuable. It's so great, it's so beautiful. Everything he was working to obtain before all of the money he's gathered by finding and selling pearls in the previous like mode of living. He now gets rid of all of that just to purchase this one pearl and presumably to keep it. And I think that again, is kind of a, kind of a, um, statement on our Christian life is that we, we probably have all sorts of things that we've been doing our whole life and we are seeking to, to move forward in our life. And the kingdom of heaven is kind of the ultimate goal of all of that, for those who are in Christ, for those who are called according to his purpose. The purpose is not just to accumulate wealth. It's not even necessarily, uh, in and of itself to like grow in righteousness. It's to be transformed to the, uh, to the image of God's glory son, for the purpose of making him great, making his name renowned. Right. When we look at that passage in Romans that have kind alluded to, he's, he would transform into the image of Christ so that he might be the first born among many brothers. The Incomparable Worth of Salvation [00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: Ultimately, our, our sanctification and glorification is about making Jesus great and glorified, um, to give him glory, to have our glorification reflect his already intrinsic glory and the gift that he gives us, and I think that's kind of, kind of in play here, is that. Uh, we might have all sorts of goals in our life. We might have goals in our Christian life, um, that are good things that we should strive for, but at the end of the day, all of those things only serve to bring us to the kingdom of heaven, which is this pearl of great price that we, we purchase, we buy it and we just kind of hang onto it. It is its own treasure and it's, it's not about what this, this treasure can bring to us, right? Which is what the fine pearls were before they were about what the merchant can find and sell. It's, it's now about just obtaining the pearl and enjoying that pearl. Um, which I think is a little bit different than, than, um, what I would've thought of with the par before. [00:38:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think, I think you're actually onto something with the distinction because I think of. So much of my career has been spent in financial services among people who are buyers and sellers of things. They're traders. And the way I read this was very similar to what you were saying to me. What resonated was if this gentleman or this person is. Trading, collecting these pearls. Presumably they have appreciation for the beauty of the pearl itself. So there is like something innate that draws them to this particular thing. And with that experience and with that knowledge and with that, that appreciation of that beauty. I think when they see this other pearl, it moves from, well, why would I ever sell that? I've seen everything. This is the most beautiful pearl I've ever laid my eyes on. And now I want to keep it for me. I want to have it in my possession. I want to cherish it and not just keep it in the inventory and then turn around and sell it for markup, presumably, because there is no nothing that would be of greater value to this person. 'cause they just sold everything else that they had. So they, it's appreciation for the pearl itself. It's going after that finding and seeking that great beauty. And then that led me right into Philippians chapter four, where Paul writes the church in Philippi, beginning of verse eight. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever's honorable, whatever's just whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's commendable. If there's any excellence, if there. Anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Practice these things and the god of peace will be with you. So this idea, like you and I, Tony, have talked about like the world has great wisdom, it has great knowledge, it has things that can lead us by way of common grace into certain amounts of peace. But the pearl of great price, the seeking after the going after all these great things is to find the gospel, to be given the gospel it revealed to you. And then say everything else I count as a loss. Everything else is worthless compared to this thing. And if you're a person that can appreciate even just by turn of mind or God's influence in your life, you know, knowledge and wisdom, and you're seeking after that, which is the ultimate expression and representation of those things, and then you find you come upon this pearl of great price, the gospel wisdom and the beauty of God represented in his son Jesus Christ. And you say, this is it. I, I know enough to know, again, by the regeneration that comes through the spirit, this is the real deal. Then I think the message still stands. We come through two different directions into the same final culminating point, which is there is a condition for having this kingdom of God, for having the king on your side as your friend, but the condition isn't like wealth or power or negotiating or intelligence or even good trading behavior or going out and finding the right thing. The condition is that we prize the kingdom more than anything else we own. The point of selling everything in these parables is to simply show where our hearts are at. And so I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value. Actually, it's true for everything that we. We presumably spend our time or our money on cost only matters in the absence of value. And I think like you and I could do a fun little experiment where I don't know, you ever talking to somebody about something and you're paying a cost to have that service delivered to you and you're, and you're just like totally worth it, like I would do totally worth it. Like, yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting here. It's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We're just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it, that that's what we'll be saying for all of eternity as we worship him. [00:41:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think even more than saying, totally worth it. I think when we are given our new eyes to see, and we no longer see through a da a glass dimly, we're gonna recognize saying that it was worth, it is is like it's a pale, like it's a faulty answer to begin with because the, for sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine. And in our, you know, locked in little meat brains that we have now, we're kind of com we're just comparing it to. You know, like what, what we could have had or what we, what we've given up. Um, it, it's gonna be an incomparable comparison. Like there's no, there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how, how worthwhile it is. And, you know, we've, we've made a point of it, like the, the blessing of salvation and, and really like what it is that we're getting, uh, in, in the. You know, the Christian understanding of salvation, it's not, it's not an eternal destiny. It's not bigger mansions in heaven. It's not freedom from death. All of those things come with it. All of those things are attending gifts. That's right. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us. And we, we become a part of that. Uh, not, not in the, you know, like. Eastern Orthodox deification sense, although I think there's a proper way we can talk about deification. Um, but we get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that. There's nothing that we could ever point to. Um, it's funny, my, my wife and I, um, this is a little corny, but, um, we'll often say to, to each other instead of saying, I love you more than anything, we'll say, I love you more than everything. Right. And, and it's, it's a way to say like. You could take all that there is in the world, everything that I have that I could possibly consider and sum up the value. And I love my wife more than that. I love my children more than that. So it's not that I love them more than any one thing, it's that I love them more than everything combined. And this is even greater than that, right? We, we will look back at our lives and if, if it's even in our mind, if we even can, can comprehend anymore. The idea of thinking about what it costs us to obtain this pearl of great value, which is the kingdom of heaven, which is just another way to say, is just fellowship with the God of the universe. Um, we'll look at it and say no matter what it was. No matter what it could have been, I would give everything I, I love God more than everything. Right. Right. There's nothing that could ever possibly be considered that even comes close to what we gain in, in Christ Jesus, in union with, with God. And I think that's the point of this, like I think the guy who, um. Christ's Perfect Sacrifice and Our Response [00:44:58] Tony Arsenal: I think about what it would take for me to even like to sell everything, like the concept of selling everything I own. I'm not even sure how I would do that, to be honest with you. Like, I don't even know the mechanism for that kind of thing. But the idea that there's anything that could be valuable enough that I would just sell every piece of human property that I have, there's probably nothing like that in this world. Like, there probably isn't. And to, to take that comparison and then basically say like, that's just what the kingdom of God is like. 'cause that's the other thing I think we miss about parables is you, you only make a comparison when you can't describe something, um, analytically, right? There's the difference between analogically and analytically Ana lot analytically means we're able to actually quantify and explain it kind of in strict terms, right? I can, I can say that, um, uh, a heavy object ways, X number of grams or it, you know, or, um. Pounds or whatever. I can, I can measure that and make an analytical statement, or I can make an analogy, an analogy that is comparative. Uh, but by definition, or almost by by nature of the thing, when you make that comparison, you're kind of saying like, not only is it like this, but it's actually it, like it's more like this than I can even describe. Right? So when we're talking about the kingdom of Heaven here, and we say it's, it's like, it's like a man who goes, he finds a treasure and then he sells everything. He has to get that treasure. It's infinitely more like that than it actually can be described. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling on that a little bit. Maybe trying to describe something that can't be described is, is hard to do. [00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's, that's, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's very difficult to do. I'm actually totally with you on this. I think I understand clearly what you mean, this idea that no matter how hard we actually try to value it, we'll be incapable of doing so. Yes. And at best, it almost seems like this is a strange command in a way because it's, it's asking us to do in some ways a thing that is impossible for us to do. However, I think what you're saying is it doesn't mean that we shouldn't turn our minds toward that. We're a bit like people who, I don't know if this show is still on PBS, but like, do you know that show, remember that show The Antiques Road Show? Yeah. Where people would like come, they'd ran ransack their homes or their garages with these old antique items and they bring them to this road show where there'd be experts who would value them. And inevitably we'll be like those people who come with what we think is like a. A thousand dollars clock that we got at a garage sale thinking, wouldn't it be great? I know this is valuable. It's probably a thousand dollars. It'll be, look at the return, tenfold return, I'll get on this item, and then instead finding that it's worth $10 million when it's appraised. Yeah, I assume it'll be just like that in the Beautific vision that even maybe for all of eternity will be growing in our appreciation for just how valuable this great salvation is. And yet at the same time, I think what this should encourage us to do is to pray things like God make us real in seeing and savoring Christ in his saving work above all the other things. Yeah. So that, as you said in your example, we would cherish him above everything, above all things that you have that right place in our hearts or that we be inclined to undertake that posture, which says, God, though I cannot understand it in full. Would you help me to see that? Encouragement in Our Spiritual Journey [00:48:08] Jesse Schwamb: And I wanna just say like, as a word of encouragement, maybe I'm speaking more to myself here so everybody else can disregard this if you like, but I think sometimes there can be a little bit of intimidation then when you hear these things and say like, ah, I'm just not, I just dunno if I love God enough, like I wanna love him, or I want to want to love him more. And I think even that posture is appropriate. Yeah. Sometimes there, oftentimes in my personal life, I'll pray something like, God, help me to know how much you love me and would you give me the strength to love you back? So that even that awareness, that energy, that volition, that vitality, that, that heat, all of that, that fire itself is kindled by the Holy Spirit. It's not like we need to like try to again manufacture here. Because the point of these, these stories is not again, that we just find the means to do a transactional exchange here, but that instead we really just sit in the full promises of God. And of course to that, I would say we always need to go back to, to something like Romans eight. I mean, I know that we should, like you said, Tony, the. The standard description we give for the Bible is the one that gives itself, which is that all of it, all of it's is carried along by the Holy Spirit. All of it is God breathe. All of it is useful for something. And yet, of course, I say somewhat tongue in cheek that, you know, if I have 10 minutes to live, I'm probably not gonna the s descriptions of reading a genealogy, I'm going straight from Roman and say, Romans say, I think it's just like the pinnacle of the scriptures. And so just a couple of verses at the end there, because I think this is, this is leading us into what is this great treasure? What is the kingdom of God? Why do we value it so much? What is the saving power? And uh, these verses, I mean, always just entirely get me ready to run through a wall. So this is the end of, of Romans eight beginning verse 35. Who shall separate us from the law of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword as it is written for your sake. We are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. No. In all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us for I'm sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from a love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord. [00:50:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good word. And I, I, I like what you're saying too, is, is I think we, we can. There's this paradoxical thing that happens when the scriptures is trying to encourage us to do something, is we often like to get our, in our own way. And, and actually that becomes a source of discouragement for us. The Bible calls us to something and we know we can't live up to it. And that's actually like part and parcel of, of reform theology to recognize that this is law, like the, the, the, the, you know, maybe not in like the strict sense, like when we talk about dividing the scripture into law and gospel, um. It may not be that this particular passage would fall under that rubric of law normally, but this idea that we need to count the cost and that we need to be treasuring Christ more and more, and then when we feel like I'm just not getting it. I'm just not there. Like, I don't, I don't treasure Christ as much as I so should. Um, that Yeah, that's right. Nobody does. Nobody can, like, that's, that's kind of the point of this, and that's why it's law is it's, it shouldn't drive you in Christ. It should not drive you to despair. Right. It should not drive you to discouragement. It should drive you to gratitude that God saved you anyways. That, that this pearl of great value is still yours even though you can't possibly deserve it. Um, you know, we're, we're a little bit different than the, the merchant and the man who finds the treasure in the field in that we can't sell everything we have and obtain it like they have the ability to do that in the, in the parables. Right. Um, we, we don't, and we never will. And so rather than let that drive you to being discouraged that like you're just not getting. I recognize God is of infinite value and we are finite creatures. So we, we could, uh, value God perfectly. Like whatever that means, and I don't even know what that means, but we could value and cherish and love God perfectly as far as our capacities are concerned, and it still would not be enough to sufficiently merit God's favor for us. Like as much as we can, even in, even in eternity. As much as we can value and worship and love and praise Jesus, he is worth infinitely more than we could ever give, even when we do it perfectly. And this is, this is why you know Christ coming to die, to live on our behalf, to die in our place. Why that's necessary is because only this is a, maybe a different take on it. We, I think we talk a lot about how, um. Only God could, could carry, bear the wrath of God and not be destroyed. Right. Right. Only God could, um, could stand up under his own wrath, could stand up under the wrath of God and bear that punishment and not be destroyed. And so therefore, um, Christ had to be not just a man, but had to be God. But on the flip side. And God requires perfect perpetual obedience, which involves loving the Lord your God, perfectly with your whole heart at all times. Right? Only God can do that too. So it's not just that God. It's not just that God is bearing wrath perfectly and infinitely on our behalf, on the cross, but Jesus is also loving God perfectly and infinitely and truly worth, truly worthing. Him. Wor worship is, the word comes from worth. It's about attributing wor worth to God, only Christ, because he is, God could do that sufficiently and perfectly and infinitely. So he's doing that on our behalf too, right? He's praying and interceding on our behalf. He's standing in God's presence worshiping him in heaven on our behalf. [00:53:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:53:54] Tony Arsenal: That is what this parable should drive us to. That's right. Is to recognize that yes, the kingdom of heaven is this pearl of great price that we could, we could never sell enough and and be able to buy, but someone did. Someone couldn't. And I think maybe this is where, where, and we didn't talk about it and that's fine. But I think this is where my understanding of these came from a little bit is I've always read these to say that it's, it's Christ who is like the man who finds a treasure in a field and gives all that he has and buys that field. Right? And I guess that kind of lines up with the way that the field has been portrayed in the rest of the chapter. And maybe that's where I got it from. I don't know. Right. Um, I don't think I've ever read it. 'cause now that I've looked at a couple commentaries, none of them make this connection. So I, I guess I want to be, I want to proceed with a little fear and trepidation. If you're the only person who's ever seen in church history, then, then go slowly and carefully. Um, but, but the same thing is, is Christ is searching. Christ is searching in a sense for, for fine pearls, right? Sure. He says like, when the son of man returns to earth, will he find, will he find the faithful? Right? There is this element of, of God is seeking his people and when he finds them, he gives everything he has to purchase them. That's right. Right. And, and so we need to look at these as a source of encouragement to point us to Jesus, who ultimately is the one who's obtained the, obtained the treasure and obtained the pearl for us, and has given us the kingdom of heaven. Who he himself is, in a sense, is the kingdom of heaven. Um, you know, we don't get a kingdom apart from the king who rules over it. That's right. So to say that we inherit the kingdom of heaven is, is to say that we become co-heirs of the kingdom, which is Christ by Right. He gives that to us by grace. [00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: I keep trying not to say it, but it just keeps happening. It's another classic example of God does all the verbs, isn't it? Yeah. It's, [00:55:42] Tony Arsenal: it is. [00:55:42] Jesse Schwamb: We could speak for another couple hours then about how beautifully that fits in with the passive and active obedience of Christ, which you just described, and I, I, I'm with you. I think there's something in that parallel that's very. Very similar to let's say, like how he should appropriate or, or kind of approach like Psalm one, like who is this righteous man? [00:55:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, [00:55:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is Christ. And so the only way that we're getting, the only way that we even can give up enough is because Christ has already given it up in our stead and then welcomes us in so that again, we don't have to empty out our account, so to speak. That even like the indicative and the imperative comes together in Christ so that what he commands, he wills in our lives. And I know time alludes us. I, I think I would be like remiss if I didn't mention how, to me as well, how. I was totally just struck by how I'll use this word because reform people will know it and you can stand, stand on your chairs and throw your hats into the air. When I say it is that, notice how irresistibly both of these characters are drawn to this treasure. [00:56:41] Tony Arsenal: Yes. [00:56:41] Jesse Schwamb: That when God illuminates it for them, it's, it's a foregone conclusion that they will do those things. I think that should be of great encouragement to us, because again, it's not like, well, how do I know if I find the pearl of great price or God opens up my, how do I know that I've done enough? That is a fool's errand. You will never do enough. What we know though is that they, each of these were drawn irresistibly to do what God required because God had already accomplished it on their, in their stead and on their behalf. Yeah. And so we see sovereign grace, this justification union with Christ, like you said, and true discipleship, the believers joyful surrender of all else. Is the fruit of a transformed heart. And I believe, like you're saying, Tony, it's not reasonable to expect that a child while truly being transformed, regenerated by God accepting the gospel. That is a real quantity. And as we grow in our lives through this idea of progressive sanctification, we come I think, to increasing levels of surrender and realization, which is all part of what it means to nly grow maturity as a Christian. And that is also normal too. And as we do that, we should have increasing, I think, measures of joy in our life to lay these things down, to cast the crowns before Christ and say, this always belonged to you, but not, not to begrudgingly, but with great joy seeing that it is always in every way worth it. Yeah. So I think by God's grace, the elect are gonna recognize Christ as the greatest treasure and willingly forsake all to follow him even. I mean, I'm, I'm a. Poster child for this. Even if we do a kicking and screaming that God works on us, puts us over the anvil at times and works on us in increasing levels of surrender, he's still doing that out of love and that is still a testimony that he's accomplishing the great work that he began, even if that started as you being a child and receiving this great gospel message in Word. [00:58:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Conclusion and Final Thoughts [00:58:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, as you mentioned, time eludes us and, uh, I, I think this is just a great place to stop. Um, we're coming back next week. We're gonna come back talking about the parable of the net, uh, which is, uh, again, is kind of linked to this parable, but is a very sharp turn to a different direction, I think. Um, so there's, there may be some, some affinities here, but, um, we're gonna come back next week. We are gonna be in the parables for a long time. Brothers and sisters, like this is gonna be a long haul. Um, maybe not as long as our systematic theology series, which was like multiple years long. Um, but it's not gonna be a short one, but it's great because I love it. I just love it. It's so, it's so much fun to look at these parables. Um, you heard tonight. Even just working through this together. This is one thing that, um, that I hear Matt Whitman say on 10 minute Bible hour lot. He will comment regularly and he'll sort of thank his listeners that him doing the show, him producing the podcast, has forced him to look at the scriptures and to sort of be forced to learn about them. And I feel the same way about this kind of series. Like I get it working through the parables. It's such a joy and I don't know that I would've done it otherwise. So, um, if, if you are not already reading through these with us, if you're not spending some time taking a look at commentaries, please do consider devoting a little bit of time each week to taking, taking a, a, a look at these parables. Grab a good study bible or a good commentary. You can get Calvin's commentaries on free or on online for free. You Matthew Henry online for free. Both of those are super good commentaries and just work through these slowly and think through them and think about how they apply to your life. Like I know that going into my week, I'm, I'm set up now to be able to look at. What it has cost me to be a Christian. And instead of looking at it with this sort of wistful, sideways eyes of like, what could have been, I can look at it and say like, it doesn't matter what could have been because look at what I've got. Look at what I get because of the kingdom of God. Look at who I get. Uh, I get God, and that's enough. It's more than enough. It could never be, not enough. Um, so brothers and sisters, I, I'm so thankful that we're working through this. I'm so, so, um, humbled that God has brought us to a place where he's given us our, the scriptures. He's called us to study it. And thank you to everybody who supports the show, you know, not just financially, but supports us by encouraging us in the Telegram chat, uh, which we haven't mentioned. You go to t me slash for brotherhood. If you wanna join a really nice, fun online discussion group. Um, people who encourage us there. I get emails and text message once in a while from people who listen to the show. Um, thank you for coming alongside of us and for, for giving us this opportunity to study the scriptures together with you. It really is a joy and I, I am so thankful to be able to do it. [01:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in our little conversation today? Well, it seems clear that the scripture's giving us two really unique examples, differences of the Kingdom of God, and searching it out and finding its surpassing worth. But what's clear is that it's greater than everything anything else in life. And when God opens a person's eyes through regeneration, they recognize it's supreme value and gladly give up all to gain Christ and His kingdom. I think we've also learned that penguin videos can be dangerous. They have real productivity, uh, consequences, and that itself is something that we ought to value. So again, enjoy your penguins responsibly, and I would argue maybe, maybe not do it at work. Don't just do your work at work and then when you're on your free time, enjoy those penguins, [01:01:56] Tony Arsenal: penguin. Penguin, do you enjoy the Benedict Cumberbatch? Can't say Penguin video that you are gonna look up immediately after this. [01:02:05] Jesse Schwamb: We know you're gonna look it up. 'cause if you haven't seen it, it's, it is actually hilarious. [01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: It, it definitely is. Yeah. I, yeah. I don't know what else to say about that, Jesse. Except, until next time, honor everyone. [01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this illuminating episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Jesus' parables of the mustard seed and leaven found in Matthew 13. These seemingly simple parables reveal profound truths about God's kingdom—how it begins imperceptibly, grows irresistibly, and transforms completely. The hosts delve into what these parables teach us about God's sovereign work in both our individual spiritual lives and the broader advance of His kingdom in the world. Believers can find hope in understanding that God intentionally works through what appears weak and insignificant to accomplish His purposes. This episode offers practical encouragement for Christians who may feel discouraged by the apparent smallness of their faith or ministry impact. Key Takeaways The kingdom of heaven begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but grows powerfully through God's sovereign work. The mustard seed illustrates the kingdom's visible expansion (extensive growth), while the leaven highlights its internal transformative influence (intensive growth). Both parables emphasize that God's kingdom often appears to "disappear" initially but produces outsized results through His work, not our own. These parables provide encouragement for times when the church feels weak or our personal faith feels insufficient—God's power is made perfect in weakness. God's kingdom transforms both outwardly (extensive growth illustrated by the mustard seed) and inwardly (intensive growth shown by the leaven). Cultural transformation happens most effectively through ordinary Christian faithfulness rather than flashy or provocative engagement. Christians should not despise small beginnings, recognizing that faithfulness rather than visibility is the true measure of fruitfulness. Understanding Kingdom Growth: From Imperceptible to Unstoppable The parables of the mustard seed and leaven powerfully illustrate the paradoxical nature of God's kingdom. In both cases, something tiny and seemingly insignificant produces results far beyond what anyone would expect. As Tony noted in the discussion, what's critical is understanding the full comparison Jesus makes—the kingdom isn't simply like a seed or leaven in isolation, but like the entire process of planting and growth. Both parables involve something that initially "disappears" from sight (the seed buried in soil, the leaven mixed into dough) before producing its effect. This reflects the upside-down nature of God's kingdom work, where what appears weak becomes the channel of divine power. For first-century Jewish listeners expecting a triumphant, militaristic Messiah, Jesus' description of the kingdom as beginning small would have seemed offensive or disappointing. Yet this is precisely God's pattern—beginning with what appears weak to demonstrate His sovereign power. This same pattern is evident in the incarnation itself, where God's kingdom arrived not through military conquest but through a humble birth and ultimately through the cross. Finding Hope When Faith Feels Small One of the most practical applications from these parables is the encouragement they offer when we feel our faith is insufficient or when the church appears weak. As Jesse noted, "God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that He is, He's always working." The kingdom of God advances not through human strength or visibility but through God's sovereign work. These parables remind us that spiritual growth often happens imperceptibly—like bread rising or a seed growing. We may go through seasons where our spiritual life feels dry or stagnant, yet God continues His sanctifying work. Just as a baker must be patient while bread rises, we must trust the invisible work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the church. When we feel discouraged by apparent lack of progress, these parables assure us that God's kingdom—both in our hearts and in the world—is advancing according to His perfect timing and plan. As Tony explained, "The fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power...in actuality that smallness is its power." God deliberately works through weakness to display His glory, making these parables powerful reminders for believers in any era who may feel their impact is too small to matter. Memorable Quotes "We shouldn't despise small beginnings. Let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel... Faithfulness and not visibility—that's the measure of fruitfulness." — Jesse Schwamb "The Kingdom of Heaven is at work not only in our midst as a corporate body, but in each of us as well. God's grace and His special providence and His spirit of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. He is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see outward progress or not." — Tony Arsenal "What cultural transformation looks like is a man who gets married and loves his wife well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church... We transform culture by being honest, having integrity, by working hard... without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades." — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 468 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother, you and I have said it over and over again. One of the incredible truths that the Bible conveys about the kingdom of God is that it's inaugurated in weakness. It's hidden. It advances irresistibly by the sovereign work of God through the Word and the Spirit. It transforms both individuals and nations until Christ's reign is fully revealed in glory. And so as we're about to talk about parables today, I can't help but think if that's one of the central positions of the Bible, and I think we both say it is how would you communicate that? And here we find Jesus, the son of God, our great savior, you know where he goes. He goes, mustard seeds and yeast. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And if you're just joining us maybe for the first time or you're jumping into this little series, which is to say, we do know tiny series, this long series on parables, you, I go back to the last episode, which is kind of a two-parter because Tony and I tried this experiment where we basically each separately recorded our own thoughts and conversation, almost an inner monologue as we digested each of those parables, both the one of the mustard seed and then the leaven sequentially and separately. And now we're coming together in this episode to kind of talk about it together and to see what we thought of the individual work and to bring it all together in this grand conversation about the kingdom of God that's inaugurated and weakness and hiddenness. [00:02:31] Affirmations and Denials Explained Jesse Schwamb: So that's this episode, but it wouldn't be a episode without a little affirming. And a little denying it seems, 22, we should this, every now and again we pause to say why we do the affirmations and denials. Why, why do we do this? What, what is this whole thing? Why are we bringing it into our little conversation every time? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, it, it, at its core, it's kind of like a recommendation or an anti recommendation segment. We take something that we like or we don't like and we spend a little bit of time talking about it. Usually it ends up taking a little bit of a theological bent just 'cause that's who we are and that's what we do. And we use the language of affirmations and denials, uh, because that's classic, like reformed confessional language. Right? If you look at something like the, um. I dunno, like the Chicago statement on Biblical and Errancy, which was primarily written by RC sprawl, um, it usually has a, a statement, uh, of doctrine in the form of things that we affirm and things that we deny. Um, or you look at someone like Turin, a lot of times in his, uh, institutes of elected theology. He'll have something like, we affirm this with the Lutherans, or we affirm that or de deny that against the papus or something like that. So it's just a, a little bit of a fun gimmick that we've added on top of this to sort of give it a little bit of its own reformed flavor, uh, onto something that's otherwise somewhat, um, Baal or, or I don't know, sort of vanilla. So we like it. It's a good chance for us to chat, kind of timestamps the episode with where we are in time. And usually, usually, like I said, we end up with something sort of theological out of it. 'cause that's, that's just the nature of us and that's, that's the way it goes. That's, and that's what happens, like when we're talking about stuff we. Like when we're together at Christmas or at the beach, like things take that theological shift because that's just who, who we are, and that's what we're thinking about. Jesse Schwamb: By the way, that sounds like a new CBS drama coming this fall. The nature of us. Tony Arsenal: The nature of us? Yeah. Or like a, like a hallmark channel. Jesse Schwamb: It does, uh, Tony Arsenal: it's like a a, I'm picturing like the, the big city girl who moves out to take a job as a journalist in like Yosemite and falls in love with the park ranger and it's called The Nature of Us. Jesse Schwamb: The nature of us Yes. Coming this fall to CBS 9:00 PM on Thursdays. Yeah. I love it. Well, this is our homage to that great theological tradition of the affirming with, or the denying against. So what do you got this week? Are you affirming with something or you denying against something? [00:04:55] No Quarters November Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. This is a little cheeky. I'm not gonna throw too much, much, uh, too much explanation. Uh, along with it. I'm affirming something. I'm calling no quarters, November. So, you know, normally I'm very careful to use quarters. I'm very careful to make sure that I'm, I'm saving them and using them appropriately. And for the month of November, I'm just not gonna use any quarters. So there'll be no 25 cent pieces in my banking inventory for the month. Oh. So I'm, I'm making a little bit of fun. Of course. Obviously no, quarter November is a tradition that Doug Wilson does, where he just is even more of a jerk than he usually is. Um, and he, he paints it in language that, like, normally I'm very careful and I qualify everything and I have all sorts of nuance. But in November, I'm just gonna be a bull in a China shop, um, as though he's not already just a bull in a China shop 95% of the time. So I'm affirming no corridors. November maybe. No corners November. Everything should be rounded. Jesse Schwamb: That's good too. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. No, no. Quatro November. Like we don't do anything in Spanish. No fours in Spanish. I don't know. Okay. I'm just making fun of that. I'm just making fun of the whole thing. It's such a silly, dumb enterprise. There's nothing I can do except to make fun of it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's fair. That's basically the response it deserves. This time, we, we brought it up for several years going, it's such a strange thing. [00:06:13] Critique of Doug Wilson's Approach Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to see this thing as complete liberty to be sinful and then to acknowledge that. Yeah. As if somehow that gives you, reinforces that liberty that you're taking it, it's so strange. It's as if like, this is what is necessary and probably we'll get to this actually, but this is what is necessary for like the gospel or the kingdom of God to go forward is that kind of attitude at times. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say this, I do always look forward every year to seeing what he sets on fire. 'cause the, the videos are pretty great. I'm not gonna lie. Like the video quality is, is certainly compelling. Um, and you could say it's lit is another little punny way to get at it. Uh, I, I haven't seen it this year. I mean, that's, we're recording this on November 1st, so I'm sure that it's out. Uh, I just haven't seen it yet. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of, kind of ridiculous, uh, that anyone believes that Doug Wilson is restraining himself or engaging in lots of fine distinctions and nuance. You know, like the rest of the year and November is the time that he really like holds back, uh, or really doesn't hold back. That's, that's just a silly, it's just a silly gimmick. It's a silly, like, I dunno, it's a gimmick and it's dumb and so I'm gonna make fun of it 'cause that's what it deserves. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. You know, I was thinking recently because as you said, the counter just rolled over. And generally this time of year I end up always watching that documentary that Ligonier put together on Martin Luther, which is quite good. And I think it does, has a fair treatment of him, including the fact that he was so bombastic and that he was very caustic with his language. And I think they treat that fairly by saying, oh, that some of the same things that we admire in somebody can be some of the very same things which pull them into sinful behavior. And there's no excuse for that. And, and, and if that's true for him, then it's true for all of us, of course. And it's definitely true for Luther. So I think this idea, we need to be guarding our tongues all the time and to just make up some excuse to say, I'm not gonna do that. And in some way implying that there's some kind of hidden. Piety in that is what I think is just so disturbing. And I think most of us see through that for what exactly it is. It's clickbaits. It's this idea of trying to draw attention by being bombastic and literally setting things on fire. Like the video where he sets the boat on fire is crazy because all I can think of is like, so if you judge me, one more thing on this, Tony, 'cause I, I, when you said that, I thought about this video, the boat video implicitly, and I've thought about this a lot since then. There's a clip of him, he sets the boat on fire and it's kind of like him sitting on the boat that is engulfed in flames looking out into the sea, so, so calmly as if it's like an embodiment of that mean this is fine, everything is fine, this is fine. Right? Yeah. And all I can think of is that was great for probably like the two seconds that somebody filmed that, but guess what happened immediately after that? Somebody rescued you by putting out the fire on the boat. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: It's just like insanity to presume that, encapsulating that single moment and somehow conveying that he is a great champion, pioneer advocate of things of the gospel by essentially coming in and disrupting and being caustic and that him setting thing on fire makes everything better is a mockery, because that's not even exactly how that shoot took place. Yeah. So I, I just really struggle with that, with the perspective he is trying to bring forward. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I'm dubious whether or not there was actually any fire involved. Well, that's, I think 95% of it is probably camera magic, which is fine. Like, I don't know. That's fine. Like, I don't want Doug Wilson to burn up. That's, that wouldn't be cool either. But, um, yeah, I mean, like the fruit of the spirit is love, joy piece patience, kindness, good as gentleness, setting things on fire and being a jerk in November, apparently. And I, I just don't, I, I've never fully understood the argument. Um, and this is coming from someone who can be sarcastic and can go over the top and go too far. And, and I recognize that about myself. I've just never understood the argument that like, it's okay to be a jerk sometimes. Or, or not even just, okay. It's necessary to be a jerk sometimes. Exactly. Um, there's a difference between boldness and being a jerk. And, you know, I think, um, the people who, who know me well are gonna like fall off their chairs. I say this like, Michael Foster is actually someone who I think. Does the boldness with a little bit of an edge. I think he actually does it really well. And just like all of us, I, you know, he, he probably goes over the line, uh, on occasion. Um, and, and, but I think he does the, I'm just going to be direct and straightforward and bold. And sometimes that might offend you because sometimes the truth is offensive. Um, I think he does that well. I think where we go sideways is when we try to couch everything in sort of this offensive posture, right? Where, where even the things that shouldn't be offensive, uh, somehow need to be made offensive. It, it's just, it's dumb. It's just, um, and I'm, I'm not saying we should be nice just for the sake of being nice. I think sometimes being nice is. When I say nice, I mean like saccharin sweet, like, like overly uh, I don't know, like sappy sweets. Like we don't have to be that. And uh, there are times where it's not even appropriate to be that. Um, but that's different than just, you know, it's almost like the same error in the wrong direction, right? To be, just to be a jerk all the time. Sometimes our words and our behavior and our actions have to have a hard edge. And sometimes that's going to offend people because sometimes the truth, especially the gospel truth is offensive. Um, but when what you're known for is being a jerk and being rude and just being offensive for the sake of being offensive. Um, right. And, and I'll even say this, and this will be the last thing I say. 'cause I didn't, I, I really intend this just to be like a, a jokey joke. No quarters, November. I'm not gonna spend any quarters. Um, I don't know why I was foolish enough to think we weren't gonna get into it, but, um. When your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk. Even if that isn't true, it tells you that something is wrong with the way you're doing things. Right. Because I think there are times where, and I'll say this to be charitable, there are times where Doug Wilson says something with a little bit of an edge, and people make way too big of a deal out of it. Like they, they go over the top and try to condemn it, and they, they make everything like the worst possible offense. And sometimes, sometimes it's, it's just not. Um, and there are even times where Doug says things that are winsome and they're helpful and, um, but, but when your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk, or that you are inflammatory just to get a reaction, um, there's something wrong with your approach. And then to top it off, when you claim that for November, like you explicitly claim that identity as though that's not already kind of your shtick the rest of the year. Um, and just, it's just. Frustrating and dumb and you know, this is the guy that like, is like planting a church in DC and is like going on cnn. It's just really frustrating to see that sort of the worst that the reformed world has to offer in terms of the way we interact with people sometimes is getting the most attention. So, right. Anyway, don't, don't be a pirate. N November is still my way. I celebrate and, uh, yeah, that's, that's that. Jesse Schwamb: That's well said. Again, all things we're thinking about because we all have tendency to be that person from time to time. So I think it's important for us to be reminded that the gospel doesn't belong to us. So that means like that sharp edge, that conviction belongs to Christ, not to our personalities. So if it's tilted toward our personalities, even toward our communication style, then it means that we are acting in sin. And so it's hard for us to see that sometimes. So it does take somebody to say, whoa. Back it down a little bit there and you may need to process. Well, I'm trying to communicate and convey this particular truth. Well, again, the objective that we had before us is always to do so in love and salt and light. So I agree with you that there is a way to be forthright and direct in a way that still communicates like loving compassion and concern for somebody. And so if really what you're trying to do is the equivalent of some kinda spiritual CPR, we'll know that you, you don't have to be a jerk while you're doing it. You don't have to cause the kind of destruction that's unnecessary in the process. Even though CPR is a traumatic and you know, can be a painful event by it's necessary nature, we administer it in such a way that makes sure that we are, we have fidelity to the essential process itself, to the essential truths that's worth standing up for. Yeah, it's not a worth being a jerk. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:37] Practical Application of Parables Tony Arsenal: Jesse, let's, let's move along. What are you affirming or denying tonight Jesse Schwamb: and now for something much lighter? So, my, my affirmation I share at the risk of it being like so narrow that maybe nobody will actually want to use this, but I actually had you in mind. Tony, I've been sitting on this one for a little while 'cause I've been testing it. And so we're, we're just gonna run like an actual quick experiment 'cause I. I'm guessing you will find this affirmation useful and will come along with me and it and might even use it, but you and I are not always like representative of all the people in the world. I say that definitely tongue in cheek. So we're a little bit nerdy. We love our podcasts and so occasionally, I don't know if this happens to you, I'm guessing it does, but I want to capture like a moment that I heard while podcast is playing on my phone. Maybe somebody says something really interesting, it's great quotes, or it's mathematical nature and I wanna go back and process it. And so generally what I do is I, I don't know, I stop it. I try to go back and listen to it real quick if I can, or maybe I can't because running, driving, all that stuff. So. When I hear something now that I want to keep, I just cry out to my phone. I have an, I have an iPhone, so I say, Siri, you could do this with Google. Take a screenshot. What happens is the phone captures an image of my podcast app with a timestamp showing of course what's being played. Then I forward this image, this is the crazy affirmation part. When it's time to be alive, I forward this image to a certain email address and I get back the text transcript of the previous 90 seconds, which I can then either look at or file into my notes. What is this email address sent it to you. Well, here's the website so you can go check it out for yourself though. Website is actually called Podcast Magic App, and there's just three easy steps there, and this will explain to you how you actually get that image back to you in the format of a transcript. And the weird thing about this is it's, it's basically free, although if you use it a lot, they ask for like a one-time donation of $20, which you know me, I love. A one time fee. So I've been using this a lot recently, which is why I've been sitting on it, but it is super helpful for those of you who are out there listening to stuff. They're like, oh, I like that. I need to get that back. And of course, like you'll never get it back. So if you can create this method that I've done where you can train your phone to take a snapshot picture of what's on the screen, then you can send it to Podcast Magic at Sublime app, and they will literally send you a transcript of the previous 90 seconds no matter what it is. Tony Arsenal: That is pretty sweet. I'll have to check that out. Um, I don't listen to as many podcasts as I used to. How dare you? I just, the I know. It's, it's crazy. Where do we even do it Feels like heresy to say that on a podcast that I'm recording. Yes. Um, Jesse Schwamb: we've lost half the audience. Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Well, yeah. Well, the other half will come next. Um, no, I, I, I just don't have as much time as I used to. I, I live closer to work than I used to and um, I'm down to, we're down to one car now, so, um, your mother is graciously giving me a ride to work. Um, 'cause she, she drives right past our house on the, the way and right past my work on the way to her work. Um, but yeah, so I guess I say that to say like, the podcast that I do listen to are the ones that I really wanna make sure I'm, I am, uh, processing and consuming and, uh, making sure that I'm kinda like locking into the content. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Tony Arsenal: So this might be helpful for that when I do hear something and I do think, like, it's hard because I use matter, which is great, and you can forward a podcast to matter and it generates a whole transcript of the entire episode, which is great. Um, but I don't often go back and, you know, a lot of times, like I'll go through my matter, uh, queue and it'll be like three weeks after I listened to a podcast episode, I be like, why did I put this in here? Right? I get that. I don't wanna listen to the entire 60 minute episode again to try to remember what that special thing was. So I just end up archiving it. So this might be a good middle ground to kind of say like, I might set, I might still send it to matter to get the whole transcript, but then I can use this service to just capture where in the transcript actually was I looking for? Um. It's interesting. I'll have to look at it too, because you can, you can send, uh, through Apple Podcast, the Apple Podcast app and through most podcast apps, I think. Right? You can send the episode with the timestamp attached to it. Yes. So I wonder if you could just send that, that link. Okay. Instead of the screenshot. Um, you know, usually I'm, I'm not. Uh, I don't usually, I'm not driving anymore, so usually when I'm listening to a podcast I have, my hands are on my phone so I could actually send it. So yeah, I'll have to check that out. That's a good recommendation. Jesse Schwamb: Again, it's kind of nuanced, but listen, loved ones, you know what you get with us, you're gonna get some, it could be equally affirmation, denial that Doug involves Doug Wilson, and then some random little thing that's gonna help you transcribe podcasts you listen to, because life is so hard that we need to be able to instantly get the last 90 seconds of something we listen to so that we can put it into our note taping at note taking app and put it into our common notebook and keep it. Yeah, there you go. Tony Arsenal: There's a lot of apps. There was actually a, a fair number of apps that came out a while ago that were, they were trying to accomplish this. Where you could, as you were listening to the podcast, in that app, you could basically say, highlight that and it would, it would highlight whatever sentence you were on. But the problem is like by the time you say highlight that you're already onto the next sentence, you now you're going back trying to do it again. And I didn't find any of that worked really seamlessly. It was a lot of extra friction. So this might be kind of a good frictionless or less friction way to do it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm totally with you. [00:20:08] The Kingdom of Heaven Parables Jesse Schwamb: I mean, speaking of like things that cause friction, there's no doubt that sometimes in Jesus' teaching on the parables that he himself brings the heat, he brings a little friction in his communication. And since you and I basically did go through each of these parables, we don't have do that again on this conversation. In fact, what I'm looking forward to is kind of us coming together and coalescing our conversation about these things, the themes that we both felt that we heard and uncovered in the course of talking through them. But I think as well ending with so what? So what is some real good shoe leather style, practical application of these ideas of understanding the kingdom of God to be like this mustard seed and like this lemon. So why don't I start by just reading. Again, these couple of verses, which we're gonna take right out of Matthew chapter 13. Of course, there are parallel passages in the other gospels as well, and I'd point you to those if you wanna be well-rounded, which you should be. And so we're gonna start in verse 31 of chapter 13. It's just a handful of verse verses. Here's what Matthew writes. Jesus puts another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It's the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. He told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Alright? Yeah. So Tony, what do you think? Tony Arsenal: Uh, I mean, these are so like, straightforward. It was almost, it, it felt almost silly trying to like explain them. Yeah. One of the things that, that did strike me, that I think is worth commenting too, um, just as a, a general reminder for parables, we have to be careful to remember what the parable is saying, right? So I, I often hear, um. The smallness of the mustard seed emphasized. Mm-hmm. And I think your, your commentary, you did a good job of kind of pointing out that like there's a development in this parable like it, right? It's a progression and there's an eschatology to it, both in terms of the, the parable itself, but also it comments on the eschatology of the kingdom of heaven. But it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. It's the kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sewed in his field. Right? It's that whole clause that is the, the kingdom of heaven is like likewise, the kingdom of heaven is not just like leave, it's like leave that a woman took in hidden in three measures of flour till all was leavened. So when we're looking at these parables. Or when we're looking at really any parable, it's important to make sure that we get the second half of the, the comparison, right? What are we comparing the kingdom of heaven to? You know, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a sower who sowed seeds among, you know, in three types of four types of soil. This kingdom of Heaven is like, this is like that. We don't wanna miss part of the parable because we latch on to just like the first noun, and that follows the word like, um, but I think these are great, these are great little, um, parables that in some ways are almost like, uh, compliments or ex explanations of the other parables that we're looking at too. They, they explain to us something more about what the Kingdom of Heaven is using similar kinds of analogies that help us flesh out the parables that are surrounding them. So the Kingdom of Heaven. You know, again, we always want to caution against kind of like overinterpreting, the parables, but the, the parable of the sower is talking about the seed that is sewn into the field, right? And then there's the parable of the wheat and the tears, and there's seed again. And we, we might have a tendency to sort of miss the nature of the kingdom in a certain sort of dynamic. This fleshes this out. So we might think of like the parable of the sowers, like we don't know what, what proportion is of good soil, you know, good soil versus bad. We know that there's three types of soils that are bad soils or unproductive soils and one type, but we don't know like how much of the soil is, um, like what percentage of the field is that. Similarly, like we don't know what percentage of the field was wheat and what was weeds. This is kind of reminding us that the, the kingdom of heaven is not found primarily in the, um, the expansiveness of it. Right. It's not, it's not initially going to look like much. It's going to initially start out very small. Right. And in some ways, like in both of these, it appears to disappear entirely. Right? You sow a grain of mustard seed. I don't, I've never seen a mustard seed, so, but it's very small. Obviously you sow that into the ground. You're not gonna find it again, you're not gonna come back a week later and dig up that seed and figure out where you sewed it. Um, similarly, like you put a, you put a very small amount of yeast or lemon into a three measures of flour. You're not gonna be able to go in even probably, even with a microscope. You know, I suppose if you had infinite amount of time, you could pick a every single grain of flour, but you're not gonna be able to like go find that lemon. It's not gonna be obvious to the eye anymore, or even obvious to the careful searcher anymore. So that's what the kingdom of heaven is like in both of these. It's this very small, unassuming thing that is hidden away. Uh, it is not outwardly visible. It is not outwardly magnificent. It is not outwardly even effective. It disappears for all intents and purposes. And then it does this amazing thing. And that's where I really think these, these two parables kind of find their unity is this small, unassuming thing. That seems ineffectual actually is like abundantly effectual in ways that we don't even think about and can't even comprehend. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yeah. I would say almost it's as if it's like, well, it's certainly intentionally, but almost like offensively imperceptible. And I think that's the friction that Jesus brings with him to the original audience when he explains it this way. So again, from the top, when we said this idea that the kingdom of God is imperceptible, it's hidden, it grows, it conquers, it brings eschatological resolution. And I'm just thinking again, in the minds of the hearers, what they would've been processing. I think you're spot on. I liked your treatment of that by focusing us to the fact that there is verb and noun and they go together. We often get stuck on the nouns, but this, that verb content means that all of this, of course, is by the superintendent will of God. It's volitional. His choice is to do it this way. It is again, where the curse becomes the blessing, where it's the theology of the cross or theology of glory, where it is what is small and imp, perceptible and normal by extraordinary means becomes that which conquers all things. And so I can. Picture, at least in my mind, because I'm a person and would, would wanna understand something of the kingdom of God. And if I were in a place, a place of oppression physically and spiritually living in darkness, to have this one who claims to be Messiah come and talk about the inauguration of this kingdom. My mind, of course, would immediately go to, well, God's kingdom must be greater than any other kingdom I could see on this earth. And I see it on the earth that the sun rises. And cast light across provinces and countries and territories in a grand way. And then we have this kingdom of God, which, you know, theory, the, the sun should never set on it and the sun should never be able to shine, but on a corner of it. And it doesn't have provinces or countries, it doesn't even have continence, but it has, it encapsulates worlds. And it doesn't stretch from like shore to shore or sea to shining sea, but from sun to sun or star to star from the heavens to the earth, its extent couldn't be surveyed. Its inhabitants couldn't be numbered. Its beginning, could never be calculated because from Tard past, it had no bounds. And so I'm just thinking of all these things and then like you said, Jesus says, let me tell you what it's really like. It's like somebody throwing a tiny seed into a garden. Or it's like a woman just making bread and she puts yeast into it. These seem like not just opposites, but almost offensive, I think, in the way that they portray this kingdom that's supposed to be of great power and sovereign growth, but it comes in perceptibly and how perfect, because the one who's delivering this message is the one who comes imperceptibly, the person of Christ preaching the gospel and the hearts of believers. But that grows into a vast and global proportion, and that of course, that aligns exactly with so many things you and I have talked about in process before. These doctrines are providence and sovereign grace, that God ordains the means that is the seed and ensures the outcome, which is the tree. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, um, you know, I don't, I don't know of any affinity with mustard seed in like the Old Testament law, but there's, there's a sort of a reversal of expectation here too, because although Levin is not always associated with like impurity, um, I think most Jewish listeners would immediately have a negative connotation with Levin for sure. Right? So when, when all of a sudden he's comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to leaven it, it becomes sort of this, um, the reason Levin is so pernicious and the reason that in the Old Testament law, you know, they're, they're, they're not just not making their bread with leave for the, for the Passover. They have to like sweep out their whole house. They have to empty all their stores out. They have to clear everything out. And that's not just because like. In, in, in Old Testament, sort of like metaphors, leaven does get associated with sin, right? Uh, and that gets carried on into the New Testament, but just the actual physical properties of leaven is like, if there's any little bit of it left on the shelf or even in the air, like even on your hands, it's can spoil the whole batch. It can cause the entire batch to go a different direction than you want it to. And in a certain way, like the Kingdom of Heaven is like that, right? Um. [00:30:21] The Resilience of God's Kingdom Tony Arsenal: You hear about, um, you hear about situations where it seems like the presence of God's people and the, the kingdom of God is just, it's just eradicated. And then you find out that there's actually like a small group of believers who somehow survived and then like Christianity is thriving again like 50 years later. Um, you can't just wipe out the kingdom of heaven because it is like leaven and any small remaining remnant of it is going to work its way back through the entire batch in a way that is, uh, mysterious and is somewhat unpredictable and is certainly going to surprise people who are not expecting it to be there. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:31:04] Understanding Theological Concepts Jesse Schwamb: One of the things I really picked up in your treatment of that, that kind of drew me in in a special way was, you know, we think of some theological terms. We have really, I think, strong. Rubric for processing them, and especially like their multifaceted nature. So for instance, when we think about sanctification, we often talk about positional and progressive. And those are really helpful ways to understand a concept that brings us into modeling where it's finite and precise to a degree that allows us to understand it and comprehend it with a greater degree of confidence. And knowing it's many parts, because it is many parted. [00:31:36] The Parable of the Leaven Jesse Schwamb: And I was thinking as you were talking about the leaven, how the kingdom of heaven here that is inaugurated by Christ, that comes by the power of the Holy Spirit is growth and always deny that. But what you drew out for me was I think we're definitely seeing in that this idea of the intensive growth and then of course in the. Parable of the mustard seed. It's more extensive growth and they're both important. So they're in consummate harmony. It's not just like one recapitulating the other. And what that made me think about was even as you were speaking now, this really interesting difference, you know, the woman is taking this, again, talking about the verb, there's two nouns here actually. There's like the, the proper pronoun of the woman there is the act which she's doing, which she's taking the leaven and working it as it were like into the flower. I just did like a weird motion here on the camera if you're watching on uh, YouTube. Sorry about that. [00:32:28] Practical Lessons from Bread Making Jesse Schwamb: Almost like I was giving CPR, but she's working it into this meal or this flower and the working it from within outwards and that working itself like changes the whole substance from the center to the surface of this meal. Now I was thinking about this 'cause you noted something about bed bread. Bread baking in yours. And I did actually just a couple weeks ago, make some bread and the recipe I was using came with this like huge warning. Some of the recipes are like this, where when you're using some kinda lemon, most of the time we're using yeast. You have to not only be careful, of course, about how much yeast you put in because you put in too much, it's gonna blow the whole thing up. You're gonna have serious problems. You're not gonna make the bread anymore, you're gonna make a bomb, so to speak, and it's gonna be horrible. You're not gonna want to eat it. But the second thing is the order in which you add the ingredients, or in this recipe in particular, had very explicit instructions for when you're creating the dry ingredients. When you have the flour, make a little well with your finger and delicately place. All of the yeast in there so that when you bring the dough together, when you start to shape it, you do it in a particular way that from the inside out changes the whole thing so that there's a thorough mixing. Because the beauty of this intensive change is that. As you know Tony, like there's so many things right now in my kitchen that are fermenting and I talked about before, fermenting the process of leavening something is a process of complete change. It's taking something that was before and making it something very different. But of course it retains some of the essential characteristics, but at the same time is a completely different thing. And so it's through a corresponding change that man goes to whom the spirit of God communicates His grace. It's hidden in the heart and chain begin, change begins there. You know, the outward reformation is not preparing a way for inward regeneration. It's the other way around that regeneration, that reformation on the outside springs from a regeneration that's on the inside, growing out of it as a tree grows from a seed as a stream flows from the spring or as leave, comes and takes over the entire lump of dough. [00:34:26] The Power of Small Beginnings Jesse Schwamb: It's amazing. This is how God works it. We again, on the one side we see the kingdom of heaven. That is like the manifestations of his rule in rain coming, like that seed being sown and growing into this mighty tree. It brings shade. The birds come nest in it. And that may be a reference Allah to like Ezekiel or Daniel, the Gentiles themselves. There's that inclusion. And then to be paired with this lovely sense that, you know what else, anywhere else, the power of the kingdom of heaven is made. Manifest is in every heart in life of the believer. And so the Christian has way more in religion in their outer expression than they do anybody else. Because the inner person, the identity has been changed. Now you and I, you and I harp all the time on this idea that we, we don't need some kind of, you know, restoration. We need regeneration. We don't need to be reformed merely on the outside by way of behaviors or clever life hacks. We need desperately to be changed from the inside out because otherwise we. Where it's just, I don't know, draping a dead cold statue with clothing, or all we're doing is trying to create for ourselves a pew in the house of God. What we really need is to be like this bread that is fully loving, that grows and rises into this delicious offering before the world and before God. Because if you were to cut into this outwardly looking freshly baked bread and find that as soon as you got through that delicious, hard, crispy crust on the outside, that in the inside all it was, was filled with like unprocessed, raw flour, you would of course say, that's not bread. I don't know what that is. But that's not bred. What a great blessing that the promise that God gives to us is that the kingdom of God is not like that. It lies in the heart by the power of God. And if it's not there, it's not anywhere. And that though the Christian May at times exhibit, as we've talked about before, some kinda hypocrisy, they are not essentially hypocrites. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is leavening us by the power of the Holy Spirit. That gospel message is constantly per permeating that yeast through all of who we are, so that it continues to change us. So that while the natural man still remains, we are in fact a new creation in Christ. So to start with, you know, bread and or not bread to end with bread, but to start with flour and water and yeast and salts, and to be transformed and changed is the intensive power of the growth of the gospel, which is with us all our lives, until we have that beautific vision. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, to kind of take a, a pivot maybe to the practical, I think this is, this is not the point of the parable necessarily 'cause the parable. I think there's a lot that these parables have to say to us about like, personal, individual growth, but they really are about the growth of the kingdom or the, the, maybe necessarily the growth of the kingdom. I think that's there too. But really like the nature of the kingdom as this sort of like, hidden, hidden thing that then grows and creates big results. [00:37:34] Encouragement in Times of Darkness Tony Arsenal: I, I think this is a, this is a parable that should encourage us. Like absolutely for sure we should look to this and, and be encouraged because. It is not the case. Um, I know there are lots of people who wanna act as though like this is the worst time anyone has ever lived in, and everything is the worst as it's ever been. It's, this is not even close to the worst time that the church has ever existed in, um, there are, it's funny, um, we'll give a little plug. Some of our listeners have started their own new show called Over Theologizing, and, um, it, it was, it was funny listening to the second episode they had, um. Pete Smith was on there and they were saying, like, they were talking about like, how do you feel about the nature of the church? And Pete was like, it's fine. Like it's great out here. Like there's lots of churches, lots good. Like I, I think that there are pockets in our, in our world, um, particularly, you know, my, my former reference is Western World and in the United States and in some senses in, in Europe, um, there are certainly pockets of places where it's very dark and very difficult to be a Christian, but by and large it's not all that challenging. Like, we're not being actively persecuted. They're not feeding us to the lions. They're not stealing our businesses. They're not, um, murdering us. You know, like I said, there are exceptions. And even in the United States, there are places where things are moving that direction. But there are also times when the church is going to feel dark and small and, and like it's failing and, and like it's, it's weak. And we can look at these parables and say, the fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power that does not rob the kingdom of heaven of its power. It in, in actuality that smallness is its power, right? Leave is so powerful of an ingredient in bread because you need so little of it, right? Because that it, you can use such a small quantity of lemon to create such a, a huge result in bread. That's the very nature of it. And it, its efficacy is in that smallness. And you know, I think the mustard seed is probably similar in that you, you don't need to have, um. Huge reaping of, of mustard seed in order to produce the, the crop that is necessary, the trees that are necessary to, to grow that. So when we look around us and we see the kingdom of heaven feeling and maybe actually even being very small in our midst, we should still be encouraged because it doesn't take a lot of leave to make the bread rise, so to speak. And it doesn't take a lot. And, and again, like of course it's not our power that's doing it, that's where maybe sort of like the second takeaway, the baker doesn't make the bread rise by his own like force of will, right? He does it by putting in this, this agent, you know, this ingredient that works in a sort of miraculous, mysterious way. It's obviously not actually miraculous. It's a very natural process. But I think for most of history. So that was a process that probably was not well understood, right? We, we, people didn't fully understand why Bread did what it did when you used lemon. They just knew that it did. And I think that's a good takeaway for us as well, is we can't always predict how the kingdom of heaven is gonna develop or is gonna operate in our midst. Um, sometimes it's gonna work in ways that seem to make a lot of sense, otherwise it's gonna seem like it's not doing anything. Um, and then all of a sudden it does. And that's, that's kind of where we're at. Jesse Schwamb: I like that. That's what a great reminder. Again, we all often come under this theme that God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that he is, he's always working and even we've just come again on the calendar at least to celebrate something of the Reformation and its anniversary. Uh. What again, proof positive that God's kingdom will not fail. That even in the places where I thought the gospel was lost or was darkens, even in Israel's past in history, God always brings it forward. It cannot, it will not die. [00:41:26] Faithfulness Over Visibility Jesse Schwamb: So I wanna tack onto that by way of, I think some practical encouragement for ministry or for all believers. And that is, let's not despise small beginnings. Like let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel. This is from um, Zacharia chapter four, beginning of verse eight. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, the hands of the rebel have laid the foundation of this house. His hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. For whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zabel. So I love this encouragement that is for all Christians. That's one. Again, God is doing all the verbs like just. For one last time for everybody in the back. God does all the verbs. Yeah, and in so doing, because he is doing all the verbs, he may, but he chooses to start with small things because again, he is always showing and exemplifying his glory and he does this in these normative ways. It's a beautiful expression of how majestic and powerful he is. So let's embrace those things with be encouraged by them. The gospel may appear weak or slow in bearing fruit, yet God guarantees its eventual triumph. God guarantees that he's already stamped it. It's faithfulness and not visibility. That's the measure of fruitfulness. So if you're feeling encouraged in whatever it is that you're doing in ministry, the formal or otherwise, I would say to you. Look to that faithfulness, continue to get up and do it, continue to labor at it, continue to seek strength through the Holy Spirit, and know that the measure of his fruitfulness will come, but maybe in a future time, but it will come because this is what God does. It's God doing all the work. He's the one, he's essentially the characters needs of these parables, sowing the seed, working in lemon. Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think, you know, like I said, the, the parables are not necessarily about individual personal growth. Um, but I, I think the principle that is here applies to that as well is I think oftentimes we feel like, um. I'll speak for myself. There are have been many times in my walk as a Christian, um, where it just feels like nothing's happening. Right? Right. Like, you just feel like it's dry and like you, you're, you know, you're, you're not like you're falling into some great sin or like you've walking away from the faith, but it just feels sort of dry and stale and like God isn't doing anything. And, um, I've only ever tried to bake bread once and it was a, it was just a terrible, terrible failure. But, um, I think one of the things that I've. I've read about people who bake bread is that there is a level of patience that has to come with it, right? Because oftentimes it seems like the bread isn't rising. It seems like the, the lemon is not doing what it's supposed to do until it does. Right? And like, if you take the bread out of the oven every couple of minutes to check and see if it's rising, it's never going to rise. It's never going to do what it's supposed to do. And, um, you know, I think that is kind of like the Christian life in microcosm too, is we, we have these spiritual disciplines that we do. We pray, we read the scriptures, we attend faithfully to the Lord's Day service. And oftentimes it doesn't feel like that's doing anything right. But it is. The Kingdom of Heaven is at work in not only in our midst as a corporate body, but the kingdom of heaven is at work in each of us as well. That's right. God's, God's grace and his, uh, special providence and his spirit of, of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. Um, he is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see, um, outward progress or not. If the spirit dwells within us, he is necessarily making us holy and necessarily sanctifying us. Um, and and so I want us to all think about that as we, we kind of wrap up a little bit here, is we shouldn't be. I, I don't wanna say we shouldn't be discouraged, um, because it's easy to get discouraged and I don't want people to feel like I'm like, you should never be discouraged. Like sometimes the world is discouraging and it's frustrating, and it's okay to feel that, but we should be able to be encouraged by this parable. When we look at it and we remember like, this is just. This is just the parable form of Paul saying like, God glories by using the weak to demonstrate his strength. Exactly right. He, he is, his power is shown in, in using the weak and frail things of this life and this world to accomplish his purposes. And so when we are weak, when we are feeling as though we are failing as Christians, we should be able to look at this and say, well, this is what the kingdom of heaven is like. It's like a tiny mustard seed, a tiny mustard seed of faith that grows into a large tree. It's, it's like this little little spark of leave that God puts in us and it's hidden in us and it leavens the whole loaf. And that's us, right? And that's the church, that's the kingdom. It's the world. Um, God is at work and he is doing it in ways that we would not ordinarily see. Even the person who has this sort of like explosive Christian growth. That's not usually sustained. I think most people when they first come to faith, especially if they come to faith, you know, as a teenager or a young adult, um, they come to faith and they have this like explosive period of growth where they're like really passionate about it and on fire. And then that, that passion just kind of like Peters out and you kind of get into like the, the day in, day out of Christianity, um, which is not, it's not flashy. It's not sexy, it's not super exciting. It's very boring in a lot of ways, like right, it's, it's basic bread, it's basic water. It's hearing a, a person speak and it's, it's reading words on a page. But when the Holy Spirit uses those things, he uses them faithfully to finish the work that he started. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The spirit's work of leavening, it continues quietly, but it powerfully, yeah. And we shouldn't despise that quietness or that smallness that I think is altogether a gift of God. And again, we're talking about the one who embodies the perfect will of God, who came and condescended to his creation was like us in every eight, where every way without sin. This is the one who became, I think as Paul writes in Galatians, a curse for us. And so again, this blessedness arises out of, again, what I think is this offensive means. And if that is the model that Christ gives to us, we ourselves shouldn't despise that kinda small beginning or even despise the sacrifices we're often called to make. Or those again, I would say like offensively and auspicious kinds of beginnings. All of that is peace wise, what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And there's a beauty in that. And I would say, I want to add to what you said, Tony, 'cause I think it was right on, is this idea that's easy to be discouraged is. It doesn't require any explanation. I, I, I'm totally with you. If you were to pick up any, or go to any kind of website and just look at the headlines for their news reporting, you're going to find plenty of reasons to be discouraged and to feel melancholy. And yet at the same time when I think we, you and I talk about these things, what I'm prone to consider is what Paul writes elsewhere to the church in Corinth, where he says in two Corinthians chapter 10, we destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. Being ready to punish every disobedience when you're disobey, when you're obedience is complete. And so what I think that applies to us in this particular case is understanding that this is the promise of God. Like you're saying, you and I are saying. Discouragement happens. And yet the truth is that small inauspicious beginnings in the kingdom of heaven always result in outsized gains that God never ceases to work. That he's always with us, that he's always for us. Then we do have to take captive those thoughts that lead us into kind of a disproportionate melancholy that pull us away or distract us from this truth of God, the knowledge of God, which is that he is super intending, his sovereign will completely over every molecule in the universe because this is what the Kingdom of Heaven does. And so that gives us, I think as I said last week, hope and evangelism we're storming those gates of hell we're coming for you like because there is a triumphalism in Christ that will be manifested in the final day. It's the reformed understanding of the here but not quite yet. [00:49:57] Cultural Engagement as Christians Jesse Schwamb: And like the last place that Le that leads me to like some practical, I think application is, and I wanna be careful with this, so I'm curious for your opinion. It's cultural engagement. You know, if we're thinking about this, leave permeating this dough, this tiny seed growing to overtake the garden, then I think believers should labor to continue to bring biblical truth into every sphere. So your family, your vocation, arts, politics, everything under Christ's lordship. I think sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be. As we've talked about the top of the show, really outspoken in a provocative kind of way. I think sometimes, again, that same quiet though, consistent work that the Holy Spirit does that's powerful in leavening us is the same thing that we can do with just our attitudes at work or our attitudes in our family, or our willingness to serve or our kind words. Of course, it does require us to preach the gospel using words. It also means that the power of the leaven is that quiet power. It doesn't jump outta the bread. It doesn't boast, but it is present. So maybe I'm saying Christians, let's be present, and leavening means to be present with the attitude and the mind of Christ. What? What do you think? Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's right on, you know, um, it, it's not quite a parable, but Christ, Christ commands his people to be like salt and light and true. Um, and, and by saying that the kingdom of heaven is like leaven, you know, like a, a measure of leaven that was hidden away in three measures. Um, he's also commanding us to be like leaven, right? And he is commanding us to be like the, the mustard seed because that is what we are. And I think, um, we shouldn't think that we can cloister off or sequester off the kingdom of heaven from the rest of culture and create like, um, I'm not quite, uh, I'm not quite to the point where I'm, I'm a transformational in the sort of like Tim Keller sense, but I do think that. We, and I don't like this word, but I'm not sure of a better, a better way to say it, but like, we like to set up these little Christian ghettos where like we, we isolate ourselves culturally into these little subcultures and these little sort of cordoned off areas of culture. Um, where we, we actually then strive to look just like the culture that's around us, right? Right. We subsection off Christian music and although it's, you know, typically it's like a decade behind the curve in terms of what music is good, we're really just doing the same music as the rest of the world. We just baptize it with Christian language. Like, I remember my, my youth pastor in high school rewrote the song closing time to Be Quiet Time. And like that was like, that was like the most Christian thing he could do at the time, was rewrite the lyrics to a song. But like, that's, that's absolutely not what cultural transformation looks like. Right. Well, cultural transformation, and maybe I'm channeling a little bit of, of Michael Foster here, what cultural transformation looks like. Is is a man who gets married and loves his wife, well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church, right? Like that's, that's cultural transformation. And in our culture, like that is a very counter-cultural way to do things. It's actually very counter-cultural. There have been times when that's not particularly countercultural and there probably will be times again where it is. And actually it seems like our broader American culture is moving away from the sort of like two kids, two kids and a dog is a, is a bygone era fantasy. And now it's like two single people living in a house together with a dog. Um, you know, and, and that's not to say that that's the only way to be, to transform culture, right? That's just one example of sort of the most mundane, natural thing is actually the way that we do it. Um. We transform culture by, um, by being honest, having integrity, yes. By, um, working hard, right? Yes. Going to work, doing your job well, uh, without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades, um, and just doing a good job because that's what God commands us to do when he tells us to honor our employers and to be good, faithful bond servants in the Lord. Um, that is also very, uh, that also will transform culture. Um, you know, I think we think of cultural transformation and we, I think we immediately go to, for better or worse, we go to like the Doug Wilsons of the world and we go like, that guy's engaging the culture. Well, yeah, I guess in a certain sense he is. Um, or we, or we go to. The Tim Keller's of the world where they are, they're engaging culture in a different way. But I think for most of us, for most Christians, our cultural engagement is very nor like very normal and very boring. It's living a very ordinary, quiet life. Um, you know, what does Paul say? Work quiet life. Mind your own business. Work with your hands, right? Like, don't be a busy body. Um, like that's, that's actually the way that culture is transformed. And that makes perfect sense. We will have to come back and do another episode on this sometimes, but like, that makes perfect sense. When you think about how God created Adam and what he was supposed to do to transform and cult, cultivate, right? The word cultivate and culture come from the same roots to transform and cultivate the entire world. What was he supposed to do? Plant a garden, tame the animals, right? You know, bake babies. Like, it's, it's not, um, it's not. Rocket science, it's not that difficult. And again, we are all called to different elements of that. And God providentially places us in situations and in, in life, you know, life circumstances, we're not all gonna be able to fulfill every element of that. But that's where this, that's where this becomes sort of the domain of the church, right? The church does all of these things in the culture, and I don't mean the church as institution. I mean like the people who are the church. They do all of these things in very ordinary, normal ways, and that will, that will transform the culture. Um, right. You, you show me a. And this is not, you know, by God's common grace, there are lots of really nice people out there who are more or less honest and have integrity and work hard at their jobs. So it's not as that, that's a uniquely Christian thing. But you show me a, a, a person who is known to be a Christian and works hard as honest is straightforward, is kind, is charitable, is self-sacrificial in, in all arenas of their life. Um, people will notice that and they will see it as different and they will associate it with Christianity. They will associate it with Jesus Christ. And that is really powerful. Jesse Schwamb: Agreed. Yeah. I think there's something in that for us to really take away with and, and try to apply. [00:56:58] Final Reflections and Encouragement Jesse Schwamb: And I want to this week, you know, do you remember back to the days of COVID and its most T stages, and we had all of this technology, all these conversations about contact tracing. Yeah. And I was just thinking about that. What if we tried that just as a thought experiment with considering ourselves as the leaven in the world that God has put us in. So if you were to go through your day and think about all the people we've interacted with, all the experiences you've had, the text messages, the emails, the conversations, the interactions on the road and at the supermarkets and at daycare, if you consider all those things, and then instead in each of those ways in whatever the interaction is, am I bringing forward the God's kingdom in my interactions? I think what you'd find is that we have this tremendous opportunity to use what is normative. And by the way, this is what God does, right? Like the yeast is. Is empowered by God, but it's simple in, its like first principles that make it react, but God is doing the reaction in the same way, like you've said, Tony, God has called us to, is to live small lives in many ways. So I think wrapping it all the way back to the beginning, how many people, even in our, let's say, our own sphere of influence, I'm talking like at your place of work, in your office, in your home, or at your churches, and again at the grocery store, how many of those people care what Doug Wilson is saying? Care what he's doing. Yeah. Even know who he is. Yeah. They know you or they're getting to interact with you. And so they're interacting with me and with Tony. And it's our responsibility as God empowers us to be that true salt and light. And if we did a little contact tracing, I, my guess would be, we'd be surprised if we were treating it like we were concerned that we were communicating some kind of sickness and we really made particular effort to go back through and trace all of our contacts that we would find that we interact and do a lot and that is our opportunity. Yeah. And that is the small and quiet working of the Holy Spirit in those things. What if we were praying that God would use those opportunities to, one, be a model, that kind of Christian behavior that you're talking about, Tony, the kind of fruit of the spirit and to beyond that, to use that by God's divine appointing to have opportunity to speak directly and forthrightly and lovingly the gospel message. Like what if that's how we were praying? So yeah. Will you join me in praying that way this week? 'cause I, I'm, I'm gonna be praying that for myself and for my wife, for my church, these. Little parables have really pushed me, I feel in that direction that there's so much here for us, because we should get pumped up by this. We shouldn't be discouraged by this. And instead we should see like, well, if this is how God handles his kingdom, like what else can he do in the world? And the answer is all the things, everything. And he will do it. He will bring it to completion. So what's funny is, strangely, mustard seed and yeast, and I haven't said this in a while, so I'm gonna say it now, have got me in this place where I wanna run through a wall. I wouldn't have expected that that's where it started. But doesn't it make sense that that's where it ends? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jesse, that's a good way for us to wrap this up. Um, next time we'll be getting into some more parables, a little hidden treasure, a little bit of pearls of great value. We'll see how, how many episodes it takes us to get through those two parables. Um, but Jesse, this is such a fun, um, and I think really a really transformative series for us. Like, I think, I think. What you just said is spot on. Like, I would not have expected these two really micro parables, right? It's like five verses. I would not have expected these to have this much driving force for like Christian living. Um, you know, all of scripture is God breathe. All of it is profitable for, for teaching correction, reproof training, and righteousness. But it feels like this one would not have been in my top 10. But now that we've talked about it, it's like, yeah, like let's get out there. Yeah. Let's be leaven, let's be mustard seeds. So I think that's great if you wanna get after it together with other like-minded brothers and sisters who are, are on this same, um, sort of journey with us. I'll just use all the postmodern language. They're taking the same pathway with us. They're, they're on the same journey. Um, you can go to t.me/reform brotherhood that'll take you in your browser or on your phone, or it'll take you to a little app called Telegram and it'll jump you straight into our little slice of the internet that we have. Uh, it's a great little group. Um, there's maybe a couple hundred people in there. There's not a ton. Um, you know, maybe like 30 really active people and a bunch of people who are lurkers and that's just fine. Um, but there's a place for prayer requests, which are faithfully prayed for. Um, people will a, will absolutely pray for you. Um, it's one of the few places that I've been online where when you ask for prayer, you, not only do you trust that people are doing it, but they actually like type out their prayers for sure to show you what they're praying, which is great. Um, there's lots of great channels for memes and there's a baptism discussion. It's specifically called charitable baptism discussion, and it actually is like, it really does. Uh, we really do try hard to maintain a level of charity and to decorum and love for our each other. Um, so please do join us t.me/reform. Brother, we would love to hear your thoughts on this parable. We'd love to hear, especially like what. What kinds of things are you doing this week differently because of what we talked about today, right? Like how has this actually made a difference in how you're walking out your Christian faith? Jesse Schwamb: Right? I love it. So what have we learned about these two parables and maybe in this conversation in particular? Well, one, we've learned it's really best not to set your boat on fire. Just don't do it. If you have a boat, I feel like you're blessed enough, possibly, although I, I don't know how a boat, would they say the best two days of a boat or the day you buy it and the day you sell it, not the day you set it on fire. That's not a good day. We've also learned that these parables of the mustard seed in lemon, they teach us that the kingdom of heaven, God's kingdom, it begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but it always grows powerfully and inevitably through sovereign work. And the mustard seed illustrates that the kingdom's visible expansion is present. It's here, not yet. While the 11 highlights this internal transformative influence, and there's something there for all of us to take away and apply. It's not just head knowledge. Loved one. We gotta get that meditation. Yeah, we gotta bring it inside. We gotta process it by the holy power of the Holy Spirit, and as the Puritans would say, warm ourselves by the fire of meditation. So now it's up to you to do that as Tony and I will endeavor to do it this week until we come and talk to you or talk at you next week. But while you're doing that, here's what I would say. Honor everyone. Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal explores Jesus' parable of the leaven from Matthew 13:33, revealing profound insights about the nature of God's kingdom on earth. This short but powerful parable illustrates how the kingdom of heaven operates not through outward glory or conquest, but as a hidden, transformative influence throughout the world. Tony examines how this parable connects thematically with other parables in Matthew 13, showing that believers are called to be like leaven - seemingly small and hidden, yet profoundly impacting the entire "loaf" of society. This teaching offers a refreshing perspective on how Christians can understand their role in the world and how God's redemptive purposes work through His people. Key Takeaways The kingdom of heaven operates not through outward glory but as a hidden, transformative influence in the world Just as leaven permeates an entire batch of dough, Christians are called to influence the whole world around them The parable of leaven shares thematic connections with the parables of the sower and the wheat and tares in Matthew 13 God preserves the world (the "whole loaf") because of His redemptive purposes for those within it The seemingly small presence of believers in the world has a disproportionate impact, similar to how a small amount of leaven affects a large amount of flour Common grace benefits both believers and unbelievers as part of God's redemptive plan The church may not always appear dominant in society, but its influence continues to work invisibly and powerfully Understanding the Parable of Leaven The parable in Matthew 13:33 is deceptively simple: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour till it was all leavened." Tony notes that just as leaven is often the same color as flour but with a different texture, and just as a small amount can affect an entire batch, the kingdom of heaven may seem small and unassuming in the world, yet its influence permeates everything around it. This parable teaches us that God's kingdom doesn't operate through visible conquest or outward glory. Rather, it works quietly from within, transforming the whole of society as believers live out their faith in various contexts - whether at work, with family, or in other relationships. The impact of the kingdom, like leaven, is not always immediately visible but ultimately transforms everything it touches. The Kingdom's Hidden Presence This parable helps us understand that while the church may not always be the dominant visible institution in the world, its influence continues to work powerfully. Tony explains how this connects with the parable of the wheat and tares, where both grow together until the harvest. Similarly, the kingdom of heaven is present within the world, often hidden from plain sight but still exerting tremendous influence. This perspective counters triumphalistic views that expect Christianity to always visibly dominate culture, while also rejecting defeatist attitudes that minimize the church's impact. Instead, it offers a balanced understanding that even when believers are in the minority, they serve as God's means of leavening the whole of society with kingdom values and influence. Memorable Quotes "We should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests, accoutrements or accolades." "As we go into our workday, as we interact with our family, whether that's our immediate family, our wives or children, our parents, or it's our extended family, some of whom may not even know Christ, as we interact with our fellow Christians in the church or online, as we interact with unbelievers online, we are to be like leaven that is hidden in the flower and our presence in the flower, our presence in the world actually leavens the whole world." "If it were not for God's intent and desire to save a remnant from fallen humanity, if it was not for the covenant of redemption in which the father, son and the spirit pacted together to redeem a people for their very own, God would've had no reason not to just destroy the whole thing and start over. But because he has seen fit to redeem out of the fallen whole, a portion, he is leavening the whole with that portion." Full Transcript we should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests accoutrements or accolades. [00:00:21] Introduction and Experiment Setup Welcome back to episode 467 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Tony and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, if you are joining us for this second part of, uh, episode 467, any of you have not listened to Jesse's contribution, then you are like me. I also have not listened to Jesse's contribution yet, but, uh, you should go back and listen because, uh, we're doing a fun little experiment this week, Jesse and I. Our schedules didn't quite line up, so we thought we would do something interesting. [00:01:03] Exploring the Parables of Christ Uh, we've been working through the parables of Christ, which has been an absolute joy, and we come to these two sort of little micro parables that, um, commentators and editors often clump together. And Justin and I thought it would be a fun experiment for us each two separately talk about, uh, one of the parables. Uh, and then next week, uh, we're gonna come back together and we will probably talk through all of it after we've had some chances to, uh, process and marinate in it a little bit. We thought it'd be fun to see kind of how the two episodes gel together or don't gel together, uh, when uh, we have not talked about it and did not record together. So I'm gonna go ahead and kick off. I don't know if Jesse did affirmations or denials. I don't know what Jesse did. I, all I know is he recorded an episode and I'm sure that it's amazing. Uh, but I'm just gonna go ahead and kick off right into the, uh, the. Uh, reading here. So we're looking at Matthew chapter 13. Uh, we've spent our entire time in this series so far in Matthew chapter 13, and I'm gonna pick it up at verse 33. It reads here, he told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Now this is a short parable. Uh, it's, it's pretty straightforward. And this episode will be a little bit shorter. I don't know how long Jesse went. I mean, I, I guess I kind of have an idea 'cause I edited the, uh, episode, but I dunno how long you went. So I'm gonna keep this short and sweet and we're gonna talk more about all of this next week. So I just wanna share a few observations with you first. I think it's important for us to sort of recognize that. Matthew as the inspired, uh, writer of this, uh, gospel and in some ways, uh, as an inspired compiler and editor of Christ's public Ministry. Right. He's writing the gospel, but he's also a witness to the events. He is probably, um, ordering things in particular ways to make a theological point. Christ probably also taught this same message multiple times in multiple venues, so there's nothing shady or a historical going on. Um, but Matthew is. Putting together these, uh, counts and particularly these parables, which probably were all given at the same time. Um, Christ probably deliver them all at the same time as well. And there's some good reasons in the text to think that. But these parables all fall within the context of each other. So when we talked about the parable of, uh, the soils, um, or the parable of the sower, we, we recognize, um, that the kingdom of heaven is not as obvious as we would think, right? The sower sows the seed, um, he sows it promiscuously a across various different kinds of soils, fully knowing that some of it will not be receptive. And then of course, we saw the outcome. And then when we looked at the parable of the weed, weed, uh, wheat and the tears, uh, we see that, you know, the, the good sower recognizes that the wheat and the weed will grow up next to each other, and that at the end of all things, he will separate those things and will, you know, destroy the wicked and will reward the righteous. And an interesting feature of this chapter is that Christ often tells a parable, and then there's either some commentary, or in this case today, there's actually additional parables in sort of inserted, and then Christ gives the, uh, interpretation of the parable. So the, the parable of the mustard seed immediately follows in the parable of the 11, kind of considering those together. Immediately follows the parable of, uh, the explanation, or no, sorry, the parable of, um, the weed and the weeds. And so he gives us this parable right in the middle there. Then he gives us a little explanation and a second, you know, explanation of why he speaks in parables. And then he goes on to interpret and. There's a, a technique that was often used in ancient text, in ancient documents called an iuso, where they would start an account. Uh, they would start sort of a literary segment with, um, a phrase or a concept. Then they would explain, you know, they would give all their explanation and then they would close that same section with a similar theme or a similar, um, kind of, um, concept. We see this in Luke, right? We see at the beginning of Luke. There's a statement that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. Then we see the, um, the account of Jesus in the temple. And then we see again at the end of that, it says again, he grew in wisdom and stature. And so Luke, there is telling us that we should read that whole section, that whole area as a, a single unit. And the theme of that unit is Jesus growing in, um, wisdom and stature. A similar thing is happening here. So we have the, the parable of the sower. We have some commentary, then we have the interpretation of the parable of sower. Then we have the parable of the wheat and the tears, and then we have this in the middle, the parable of the weed of the, um, mustard seed and the lemon. And then we have the explanation or the interpretation of the parable of the wheat and the tears. So we should see this parable as part of that literary unit. That's, that's what Matthew is doing here. So we have to interpret it in light of that. [00:06:17] The Kingdom of Heaven and Its Implications And so what do we see in the first, uh, parable that we talked about? Well, we see that the kingdom of heaven is, uh, is sort of hidden within the world. We see that God sows or the, the good sower sows his seed. The master of the household sows his good seed into the world. The field is the world and it starts to grow, and then the enemy comes and he sows his seed into the world, and that starts to grow. And until the end of things, um, the good weeds, the good wheat is sort of hidden among the weeds just as the weed is hidden among the good wheat, the, the parable of the mustard seed, um, Jesse, I'm sure explain. We'll find out. Um, explain that the, the mustard seed is small. And so when it's planted into the garden, it becomes kind of hidden and it's an unexpected, um, influence on the, the rest of the garden. Not only does it grow, but it becomes, uh, it becomes a central feature of the garden. Uh, it gives shade to things. It, you know, birds come and live in it. Um. It becomes a central feature in an unexpected way. And the Parable of 11 is, in my opinion, is really just a restatement in some ways of the parable of, uh, the wheat and the tears. It says the kingdom of heaven is like 11 that the woman took and hid. In three measures of flour till it was all lemon. So Jesse could tell you more about baking bread than I could. Uh, he, he probably would've been better to give you this parable and, and if we did any sort of planning at all, we would've thought about that, but. Lemon is often, um, the same color as flour. Um, it's a different texture as flour, but it takes just a very small amount of it in a large portion of flour or bread dough or whatever you're putting into to then permeate and affect the whole thing. So you might have, you might have a pound of flour. Um, or in this case, three measures of flour, which I, I don't know off the top of my head how much that is. Um, my logos Bible software is, is not helping me all that much here. But you may have a, a large quantity of flour, say a pound of flour, you might put just a few, um, a few grams into that flour, and once you've mixed it all up. Even though that lemon, uh, that lemon is, is at a much lower ratio than the flour, it still affects the entire, the entire outcome and the entire loaf of that, uh, bread that you're making. So, in one sense, what Christ is saying is that the kingdom of heaven, uh, it's it's small. It's, it's unassuming. It is hidden in this broader bunch, just like the wheat is in the good field. Um, it's hidden in the good field in that when you first, you first sow it, you don't see it. And as it starts to grow alongside the weeds, it's hidden among the weeds just as the weeds are hidden among the weeds because you can't tell the difference. In this case, the lemon is, is hidden among the measures of flower, and that's what the kingdom of heaven is like. And so we should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests or outward, um, accoutrements or accolades. Um, it certainly should be visible, right? Christ also says that, uh, the kingdom of heaven is like a city on a hill, and we'll get to that when we get to that, or we'll talk about that at some point. But it's not as though this parable is saying The kingdom of heaven should be invisible. But it's not, um, it's not going to be the dominant outward force in the world, just as the wheat in the first parable we talk, or in the second parable we talked about is not gonna be outwardly, uh, visible and apparent. Um, but it's still present in the world and it's still. Part of the reason that the master retains the field instead of just burning it over. If, um, if we saw that an entire loaf was ruined, we'd throw it away. But because the leaven is present in the loaf or it's present in the three measures, it, it permeates that. And the second thing that I think that we should think about, uh, and this will be where I close here, is the kingdom of heaven is, um, is not an, an inert force in the world. Even though it's not going to be outwardly dominant, dominant, it's not going to be the primary, uh, visible institution in the world. Um, it, it certainly has been at points if, if you equate the. The visible church with the Kingdom of Heaven, which our tradition certainly does to a certain extent, but regardless of how present or hidden it, it visually appears and how apparent it is, it still is leavening the whole loaf. So when we read passages like God so loved the world, we don't have to do exegetical gymnastics to try to say, well, God so loved part of the world, or the world only means the elect. We can say without, you know, crossing our fingers or talking outta both sides of our mouth, that God loved the world, the whole world, but part of the reason he loved the whole world is because. One, he created it. But his love for the world in that passage and his sending of the sun is a particular love for the whole world. On the account of all of those who would believe so the, the, the parable here, just like the parable of the weeds. Or maybe as an extension of the parable of the wheat and the tears is teaching us that Christians, particularly the sons of the Kingdom, to use the language from the, the parable of the wheat, the sons of the Kingdom of God are hidden among the world. And just as we are commanded to be salt and light earlier in the gospel, here we are to leaven the whole world. So as we go into our workday, honestly, I'm sitting in my office at work recording this episode right now 'cause it's the most quiet place I can get. Um. As we go into our workday, as we interact with our family, whether that's our immediate family, our wives or children, our parents, or it's our extended family, some of whom may not even know Christ as we interact with our, our fellow Christians in the church or on online. As we interact with unbelievers online, we are to be like leaven that is hidden in the flower and our presence in the flower. Our presence in the world actually leavens the whole world if it were not for God's intent and desire to save a remnant from fallen humanity. It was not for the covenant of redemption in which the father, son and the spirit, uh, pacted together to redeem a people for their very own. If it were not for that, God would've had no reason, would have no reason not to just destroy the whole thing and start over. But because he has seen fit to redeem. Out of the fallen hole, a portion he is leavening the hole with that portion. So I'm obviously not arguing for some kind of universal salvation, but the the common grace that the fact that the rain falls on the just and the unjust or the fact that we all have air to breathe and there's food to eat and that. Uh, evil is restrained, uh, to a certain extent and, and that, um, the good things in life are preserved and that even, even the unbelievers can experience good and pleasurable things like marriage and good food and drink and, and other, um, common grace pleasures that God has provided. All of that is on account of, and because of his desire to redeem the whole, to have a kingdom of God on Earth. So I'm gonna leave you there and it'll be an interesting, fun experiment once these, uh, two dueling episodes come out to, to compare notes and to see how close Jesse and I. Are in interpreting these and where we overlap and where we may even disagree. And we will come back next week and see, uh, where we go when we start to discuss the two together. So thank you for bearing with us with this sort of interesting, unorthodox experiment. I hope that you've enjoyed this, and until next time, honor everyone. Love that brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores Jesus' parable of the mustard seed from Matthew 13. The seemingly insignificant mustard seed grows into a mighty tree, providing a profound metaphor for God's kingdom—beginning in humble, ordinary ways yet expanding to glorious fulfillment. Jesse unpacks how this parable challenges our expectations of power and glory, revealing that God intentionally works through what appears small and insignificant to manifest His mighty power. This episode offers a meditation on God's kingdom, which operates contrary to human expectations, growing unstoppably between Christ's first and second comings despite opposition, and ultimately providing shelter for all nations. Key Takeaways The kingdom of God begins with something small and seemingly insignificant (a mustard seed) yet grows to become greater than all garden plants Jesus deliberately uses ordinary, humble elements to describe God's kingdom, contrasting with human expectations of power and glory The theology of the cross consistently looks to normal, ordinary means rather than what people perceive as great and powerful There is significant growth of God's kingdom between Christ's first advent and His eventual return God's kingdom cannot be stopped by opposition; attempts to destroy it actually facilitate its growth Biblical meditation on Jesus' parables is essential for deeper understanding and application The parable connects to Old Testament imagery (particularly in Daniel and Ezekiel) where trees represent kingdoms The Theology of Ordinary Means The parable of the mustard seed demonstrates what Jesse refers to as "the theology of the cross" versus "the theology of glory." God consistently chooses to work through what appears weak, small, and insignificant rather than through impressive displays of worldly power. As Jesse explains, "The theology of Cross is always looking to these normal, ordinary insignificant things. It's God's stacking the deck against himself to show his great power that he works not... in the circumstance of what people perceive to be great and powerful, but the exact opposite." This approach reveals God's sovereignty—He needs no human advantage, political power, or military might to accomplish His purposes. The kingdom that began with Jesus' seemingly humble first advent will culminate in His glorious return, showing that God's power is made perfect in weakness. The Unstoppable Growth of God's Kingdom One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it portrays the inevitability of the kingdom's growth. Just as a mustard seed inevitably grows into a tree according to its nature, God's kingdom advances despite opposition. Jesse notes how throughout history, attempts to destroy Christianity have always failed: "History is replete with those... who have tried in their own way to silence God, to destroy the scriptures or to somehow eradicate Christianity. And of course, history will be filled up with all of their failures." Even the martyrdom of Stephen in the early church, which seemed like a defeat, actually caused the gospel to spread beyond Jerusalem as believers were scattered. This illustrates Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail against his church" (Matthew 16:18). The kingdom continues to grow by God's power until its final consummation when Christ returns. Memorable Quotes "The humble inauguration was not a mistake. This is planned by God and it is for his great purpose. It shows His great power, his love for his people, and the ordinary way in which he brings about all of these things." - Jesse Schwamb "This unassuming seed, which God plants, continues to grow by his power, his volition, his sustenance, until it takes over all things." - Jesse Schwamb "The one who took on flesh and was born in a humble state will return in splendor and judgment to consummate this kingdom." - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript the theology of Cross is always looking to these. Normal, ordinary insignificant things. It's, God's stacking the deck against himself to show his great power that he works not with great po, not in the circumstance of what people perceive us to be. Great and powerful, but the exact opposite. Welcome to episode 467 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters. Well, we're back at it again. [00:00:48] Exploring the Kingdom of God Through Parables On this episode, we're talking about seeds and leave. In what other ways would Jesus describe the kingdom of God? And we're gonna get to all of that, but in a slightly different format. Something special for everybody on this episode. It may have noticed that. Right at the top. Tony is missing, but fear not. He's still here. We're doing something different on this episode and that is we're gonna speak about the kingdom of God as Jesus describes it in parable form with the mustard seed and the leave. And so what we decided to do is I'm gonna give a quick little primer, my thoughts, my observations. On the mustard soup parable, and then Tony will be right behind me to talk about the leaven. And then in the next episode, we're coming together and we're gonna see how all of our different explanations kind of come, came together and coalesced around single themes. So this is a fun little game where you're gonna hear from. You're gonna hear from Tony, and we're gonna see how all of this comes together in the end, because neither of us is having the conversation in real time, but I'm sure that we're gonna have a lot of the similar things to say and it'll be a fun little game of seeing how all of this comes together. So if you wanna play along. And you definitely should come hang out with us in Matthew chapter 13. [00:02:04] The Mustard Seed Parable So we've gone through a couple parables already and the beauty of looking at these parables, of course, one of the many beauties, I guess I should say, is that we're getting some direct teaching from Jesus, which is always great, and we're getting it directly about the Kingdom of God. The God perspective on salvation. Clear, concise, in parable form. And so we found ourselves looking at fields, looking at planting, looking at weeds, looking at tears, looking at wheats. And now after all of that, we're coming back. To in some ways, at least for me, a familiar form. And that is we're back to seeds again. And this time it's a particular type of seed. It's the mustard seed, and Tony's gonna handle something new, a total change in direction, a totally different comparison. He's gonna get into lemon and bread making and all that kinda good stuff. But in either case, what we're finding is Jesus is specifically coming to us once again. With these finely tuned stories to help explain to us the kingdom of God. And of course, like this is clear because in all of Jesus' teaching, the kingdom of God holds this like high and lifted up this prominent position. It gets hegemony in all the other topics. And as he goes about his earthly ministry, wherever gospel you look, you're gonna find that he's proclaiming his coming to earth and that this coming meant that the kingdom of God was at hand. Now, I can only imagine, and you ought to as well, that if you were in that time, if you were listening to Jesus. What an incredible thing that would be that you're trying to understand and really discern what the he means about this kingdom of God. And perhaps like you, I would have my own perceptions of what that was, and if he's inaugurating it, I'm waiting for that thing to happen. And a kingdom is a powerful representation of ownership. Power in hierarchy in a place that's clearly manifested. And so as Jesus is in the midst of all these hears, these disciples that are gathering around the throngs of people that are trying to understand what he has to say. If he's coming and saying, I am here to inaugurate the kingdom of God, then my first question would be. Where is it? Tell us what it's gonna look like. Show me what you mean when you say that the kingdom of God is here, that you're ushering it in. And so how strange and unusual then for Jesus to say something like the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, or the kingdom of God is like lemon in bread. So it seems altogether fitting that Jesus would want to and would have to explain what exactly he means. It's a little bit though mysterious that he uses these elements. To bring about that kind of explanation. I find that endlessly fascinating. [00:04:32] Meditation on Jesus' Teachings Speaking of which, I think one of the reasons why Tony and I are discovering that we're loving these parables so much is that it forces us to do something that sometimes is Modern Christians we're honestly just not that good at it, not skilled and often not practiced because our lives are filled with many things. And we prefer not to do this, and that is to actually meditate on what he's saying, to actually like turn it over in our minds to think about it. Like personally, practically, seriously, and earnestly to understand how the truth of God's words should look in life. And it just dawned on me this week that really the parable forces us into that rubric, whether we want to or not, because the whole purpose is to take what he's saying and to dwell on it to such degree that we receive something of the promises that are therein. By chewing on them. And it's just too easy to read the scriptures, of course, and to take with you as you pass by those words, something of a little bit of the knowledge that's contained within something about the phraseology or about the facts of it. But really what God's after here is this idea that we would spend time meditating on the words of Jesus, so that we might truly understand what he means by the kingdom of God. And then we might take that kingdom into our own realm, as it were, into our own sphere of influence to manifest it. And to worship him through it and to be obedient in it. Be not because of works on the righteousness, of course, but because we already have been saved by a great savior for this kingdom. And now we know something about what it's actually like by way of these beautiful metaphors. And of course, like the metaphors, even if they're straightforward. As we're about to find in this one, still force us into them to really say, well, what? What does it mean? We're gonna talk about seeds and mustard plants, and where else we find trees in the scriptures. Without meditation, we lose so much of this without meditation. Truths are maybe devoured, but they're never digested. I like what the great Puritan Watson wrote. He said, it's better to meditate on one sermon than to hear. Five sermons. Many complain that they do not profit from sermons. This may be the chief reason, because they do not chew the cud. They do not meditate on what they have heard. And I think one of the great goals that Tony have in this series is that even as we're thinking about this before we have conversation with each other and present it all to you, that we really wanna spend time truly meditating on it, thinking practically, deeply for a long period of time. On what is being said here, what Jesus means by it, that it is for us, that it is a gift that he gives to us. And so I really totally resonate with what Watson is saying here, that when a Christian enters into meditation through the scriptures, that they receive healing, they receive power from God, that receive insights and wisdom, that receive his comforts, that receive his direction for life, and that all of that is, or most of that. Rather is lost if we move too quickly by it. We tend to gather a lot of knowledge, but maybe not a lot of the wisdom that's contained in there. So even if this sounds simple, this little parable that's before us, it's just a couple of verses. Loved ones that there is so much in it for us to understand and to chew on. I don't think we can expect to get all the understanding in one go and that's okay. We keep coming back to it. Certainly. I'm not gonna cover it all here. This is definitely not going to be, though. You might expect it, the definitive episode. On the parable of the mustard seed in the lemon. It can't be really, and that's because there's just so much for us to understand here and to receive from God. So that is the longest intro ever. So let me cut it there and let's just go right to the scripture, which of course is the best part of this podcast. Always. So this is Matthew chapter 13, beginning in verse 31, just a couple of verses. Jesus put another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed than a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree. So that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. Lovely. Right. It's wild because it's such quick language there. It's so brief and already I wanted to go further, but I would be into Tony's verses, which he's gonna hit with us in just a second for. But it's really compact statement of just a couple of things. One, can we just agree that I love the way that this particular little passage begins? It just starts by saying, Jesus put another parable before them. What beautiful language that he's really throwing before his disciples placing for them to evaluate again, to meditate on these beautiful words of his that express what the kingdom of heaven is like. It's of course, well within God's purview. To not have given us any kind of direct revelation here, or direct expression or even metaphorical or comparative expression of his kingdom. How kind that he does this. And then I think there is something for us to study in this, again, to chew the cut, as Watson would say, on what it means for us to think about heaven as this grain of mustard seed and that a man took it. And he sewed it in his field. It's very small, yet it grew larger than all of the other garden plants that would probably be in that field. It became a tree, and then as a result of that, the birds of the air come and make its nest in its branches. So you can see that there's all this interesting, logical pro progression throughout this passage. And we're talking about really just two verses, really, just that many sentences. It's really exceptional thing, you know. [00:09:52] The Growth of God's Kingdom I find it interesting that this illustration progresses this idea of the kingdom of God between its inauguration and consummation. There's something built in there, and like I said, I think it's realistic to assume that so many who are hearing these words we're really, truly trying to understand. Where was this kingdom, Jesus, that you're bringing in as the Son of David, show us this kingdom and its power and my own expectation. I still don't mean to put this on. Those who would've been there would've been that this kingdom would've come in power. I was waiting for it to be manifested with this sense that it would be very clear that Jesus was in. That all things, all realities both here and now in spiritual principalities will be clearly under his foot. We were looking for, we want to see the serpent crusher, the head crusher the better. David, the one that comes inlays Goliath Finally. Where is that pump and where is that power? And interestingly, Jesus says, no, actually, it's more like a mustard seed. And of course, I mean, you don't need to know much about seeds, but if you haven't looked up a mustard seed at this point, you definitely should because it's very tiny. That's obviously implied from the text, but it is very tiny, like crazy tiny, like almost so tiny that when I look at a mustard seed, whether you're like, you're looking at your. From your like spice rack or you go and Google one, it almost seems inconceivable that any size plant could come forth from that very, very tiny seed. It's so mundane and insignificant that the idea that Jesus would say, this is what this glorious kingdom of God is like, is almost mind boggling. Like even now it's mind boggling. And if it's not, it's because you have not looked at a mustard seed. Go check that bad boy out. It's so small. And so of course like Mustard would've been a common agricultural product that grew quite prolifically in that particular area. You know, the variety of mustard seed growth in PA in Palestine is probably similar, I imagine to like maybe most of like the northern hemisphere. There's various. Kind of varieties, of course of mustard seed. What I've learned since trying to chew on this text, and they grow in very all kinds of varieties, but this idea that this small seed can become something that you put in your garden, that grows to such a great extent that it dwarfs all of the other things. And of course it starts. In the most, I don't wanna say humble, that's like, that's almost too much. The most insignificant way is incredible. So the fact that, again, we have, I think in this something that Tony and I have come back to quite often, and that is the difference between the theology of glory and the theology of the cross. That the theology of Cross is always looking to these. Normal, ordinary means these insignificant things. It's, as we've said before, God's stacking the deck constantly against himself to show his great power that he works not with great po, not in the circumstance of what people perceive us to be. Great and powerful, but the exact opposite. And I think not just as the Bible communicates, not just to display his mighty power, but also to shore forth his great glory that he needs no other thing. And because he needs no other thing, he doesn't need things to go right for him. He doesn't need the right political leaders to be involved. He does not need armies. He does not need kingdoms. He inaugurates his own. And his own is so great and so powerful that it became, it can begin in the most insignificant way because the power is not itself in the planting of that thing, but in the thing that makes it grow. And so here we have this clean and clear delineation when it comes to trees that God, again, is doing the planting and this tree is gonna grow to such a great extent that dwarfs all the others besides it. And that not just that, it becomes a resting place. It becomes a living place, a place that provides shelter. And so. It's, that is a common theme that we find, like throughout all of the scriptures. In fact, I, I often think like God has a thing for, for a couple of different items. One is tense. God loves tense, loves sojourning jam. Then the third would be trees. I mean, look throughout the scripture and see where God is either using trees directly or using, this becomes like a grand metaphor explanation for so many of other great spiritual and theological principles. That's whether we go back all the way to the beginning in the guided and we see the tree of good evil, tree of knowledge of good and evil. Tree of Life rather. In addition to that, then we have all these other references, especially in the Old Testament, but I mean, whether it's Abraham and he's souring and he's, we're getting way points by way of trees, for instance, or whether we are in the New Testament and we're talking about fig trees. There are all these references to trees. They're embedded and impounded in the lifeblood of God's work and the story that he's telling, the grand narrative of salvation of his people. [00:14:35] Historical and Biblical Context And nowhere is this, I'd say more true than in places in the Old Testament, especially when we're speaking about like the book of Daniel Daniel, chapter four. So for instance, if you go back there, you're gonna find that this description here in some ways. Has it. I think parallel is probably not strong enough a word. There's like this direct connection between what God talks about and through the power of the Holy Spirit in the book of Daniel and what he Jesus' son is saying here. And in that book we see the descriptions harkening back to King Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon. He had a dream about a tree that had grown so large that the birds of the air rested in it. However, that tree was chopped down an instant. And Daniel's interpretation revealed that all the kingdoms a man will collapse, even this mighty nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. But God's kingdom that Jesus draws a parallel here to here is different. Although the inauguration of his kingdom was unimpressive, it's going to grow until it reaches final glorious form, until the birds of the heavens common nest and its branches, which by the way, is basically exactly out of Ezekiel 36, 31, chapter six. All the birds of the heavens made their nest in its bows under its branches. All the beasts of the field gave birth to the young and under its shadow, lived all the great nations. So lest is hearers miss this message here. You know, Jesus is saying very clearly, listen, there is growth of God's kingdom. Between his first and second advents and in them, Jesus showing the manner in which he's ushering in this kingdom of God and need not sow any doubts concerning the power and legitimacy of his Messianic office and of this kingdom that he's bringing in. The humble inauguration was not a mistake. You know, this is planned by God and it is for his great purpose. It shows. His great power, his love for his people, and the ordinary way in which he brings about all of these things. And we can see this in fact, some. One of the great blessings is that we sit in this place where we can interrogate, examine, have these parables read us, and we see that since Jesus uttered these parables, the mustard seed has in fact taken root and blossomed, you know? Those who oppose Jesus and his followers after his ascension tried to squelch this infant church to chop down this tree. I love, you've heard me say before, loved ones. I love this description of job that we get from the scriptures, that even in our, let's say, the most miserable times, even when it seems like all hope has been cut off from us. Even if it seems though it's never the case, even if it seems that we've been forgotten or forsaken, the scripture tells us of job. There's hope for job, like a cut down tree. There again, we have a tree and this, this idea that even though it was removed, it, new life springs forth from it again. New unassuming life, the kind of life that can only come from the creator, the one who restores all things, redeems, all things, loves his children, and for whom. We find the exact truth manifested in from Romans 8 28, that for those who love God and are called according to his purpose, all things, all things, all things work for good. And so this infant church, while in its time it was trying to be. There was so many attempts to crush it, to destroy it, that it went far beyond Jerusalem. All the attempts to do this were exactly futile. In fact, the more that God's enemies came both in the present day and in the previous day, the more they come where their AEs and try to chop at this tree, the more the tree grows. You know, a really wild example of this in the first century is the martyrdom of of Stephen, which I think is illustrative to this end because it precipitated a dispersion that carried the gospel beyond Jerusalem, into Judea, into Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, literally. That's Acts eight. You know, the history of the church is truly the fulfillment of Jesus' promise right here in this text that not even the gates of hell would prevail against his church. That's from Matthew 1618, and I know I've said before, but man, does it bear repeating. That gates don't attack anybody. Gates don't go out to battle. It's so for the Christian here, for what Jesus is saying, it's not that we have to worry that the gates of hell are coming after us, but that the normative position of the church is to grow in such a powerful and unassuming and mysterious way that even these gates, which will try to defend against the light, will not overcome it. And so because of that, we find that. It now houses the birds of heaven, that it feeds the nations that is lifeblood and it provides fruit for all who are there? The kingdom that Jesus inaugurated awaits his return for its full and final consummation. And so in the interim, we walk by faith and not by sight. We're citizens of that kingdom and we know it cannot be shaken. We know it's growing. You know, this is one of the things that I find incredible. I think you could have chosen. Any number of course of metaphors to explain what God's kingdom is like, and sometimes we choose our own and that's fun. We're trying to explain it in a particular way or maybe to express some kind of nuance of that kingdom. But my bet is that we would not use the words that Jesus has given us here if it were left to us to try to explain it without any kind of great insight. And again, the reason why is because this is too humble. It's too unassuming. It doesn't seem like it contains within enough power, but that's because we have in this, again, this super intending will of God that he's so great, so majestic, that his thoughts are so incredibly deep that even what we have to do here is let our consciousness and reason bow down to who God is and to what he says his kingdom is like, because he always. Brings it forth in every generation. He always brings it forth and it cannot be stopped. And of course, history is replete with those both individual leaders and cultures, movements and political heroes who have tried in their own way to silence God, to destroy the scriptures or to somehow eradicate Christianity. And of course, history will be filled up with all of their failures because this unassuming seed, which God plants. Continues to grow by his power, his volition, his sustenance, until it takes over all things. And in that final consummation, it absolutely will loved ones. And so we find, I think so much encouragement in that when Christ returns to consummate the kingdom of God, no one will be able to deny its glory then. And while many of us now where we look for that glory, we obtain that glory by faith and not by sight. And in the same way here that Jesus challenges us to say, look, this is how it works. And wow, do I wanna speak so much about the 11, but I've gotta save that for Tony. You know, the one who took on flesh and was born in a humble state will return in splendor and judgment to consummate this kingdom. And so in some ways this is a warning. That what started as this humble means of Jesus in the first advent coming speaking peace to his people that will will ultimately be bookended with this kind of final judgment that reflects his full unvarnished glory. And then finally. Finally the dwelling place of God will be with man. And in that way, the birds of heaven will nest in this tree, in this lovely coming together of a new heaven and a new earth of God with his people and us finally having that beautific vision of Jesus. So there's so much here. I think that's. We can spend a little bit of time chewing on, even if we just mull over in our mind, what does it mean again? That this kingdom of heaven is like, like a grain of a mustard seed, that it gets sewn. That's the small must of seeds, but that when it's grown, it's larger than all the garden plants, and then it becomes a tree. And because it is a tree and is this great and glorious tree, all the birds of the air come and make its nests and its branches. What are the birds? What are the, what are the nests? What are these branches? And of course, I think. There's so much there for all of us to really consider as we continue to ponder what it means for us to really follow the Lord Jesus Christ closely. So that is your little quick. Conversation about the mustard seed and the leaven. [00:23:00] Conclusion and Community Engagement Now, before I turn everybody over to Tony, I wanna remind you that you all probably have thoughts on this, and as you meditate on it, you'll certainly have thoughts on it. And the best place to come and hang out and share some of those thoughts is by joining our Telegram Chat Telegram. It's just a messaging app and we have a little. A little closed off corner of that world for you to come and hang out and meet and interact with other lovely brothers and sisters who are hanging out, listening to the podcast and hopefully doing a little meditating of their own. So the way that you find that, it's super easy. If you don't know by now, then you gotta know. You just go to T or t, me slash reform Brotherhood t me slash reform brotherhood, and that will take you a link to there. So loved ones. Go think about this Kingdom of heaven. It's like the grain of a mustard seed, but you know what else? It's also like the in bread. And for that, I'm gonna turn you over to.

In this profound episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve deeply into the Parable of the Tares (Matthew 13:24-30), exploring its implications for Christian assurance. Building on their previous discussion, they examine how this parable speaks to the mixed nature of the visible church, the sovereignty of Christ over His kingdom, and most significantly, the doctrine of assurance. Through careful theological reflection, the hosts unpack how true believers can find solid ground for assurance not in their own works or fruit-checking, but in the promises of Christ and the testimony of the Holy Spirit. This episode offers both encouragement for those struggling with doubts and a sobering challenge to those resting in false assurance. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Tares teaches that the visible church will be mixed until the final judgment, containing both true believers (wheat) and false professors (tares) who may appear outwardly similar. True assurance is not based primarily on good works but on the promises of Christ, the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit, and the evidences of grace in our lives. False assurance is a real danger, as many who think they belong to Christ will discover at the final judgment that they never truly knew Him. The Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 18) provides a helpful framework for understanding biblical assurance as the proper possession of every Christian. Christ's role as the divine Master of the house (the world) and Lord of the angels is subtly yet powerfully affirmed in this parable, grounding our assurance in His sovereignty. Good works are the fruit of assurance, not its cause—when we are secure in our salvation, we are freed to serve Christ joyfully rather than anxiously trying to earn assurance. The final judgment will bring perfect clarity, revealing what was hidden and separating the wheat from the tares with divine precision that humans cannot achieve now. The Doctrine of Assurance: Reformed Understanding The Reformed tradition has always emphasized that believers can and should have assurance of their salvation—a conviction recovered during the Reformation in contrast to Rome's teaching. As Tony noted when reading from the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 18), this assurance is "not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation." This assurance rests on three pillars: the promises of God in Scripture, the inward evidence of grace, and the testimony of the Holy Spirit witnessing with our spirit. What makes this understanding particularly comforting is that it shifts the foundation of assurance away from our performance to God's faithfulness. While self-examination has its place, the Reformed understanding recognizes that looking too intensely at our own hearts and works can lead either to despair or to false confidence. Instead, we're directed to look primarily to Christ and His finished work, finding in Him the anchor for our souls. The Problem of False Assurance One of the most sobering aspects of the Parable of the Tares is its implicit warning about false assurance. Just as the tares resemble wheat until maturity reveals their true nature, many professing Christians may outwardly appear to belong to Christ while inwardly remaining unregenerate. As Jesse observed, "The tares typically live under false assurance. They may attend church, confess belief, appear righteous, yet their hearts are unregenerate. Their faith is maybe historical, it's not saving, it could be intellectual, but it's not spiritual." This echoes Jesus' warning in Matthew 7 that many will say to Him, "Lord, Lord," but will hear the devastating response, "I never knew you." The parable teaches us that this self-deception is not always conscious hypocrisy but often the result of spiritual blindness. As Jesse noted, referencing Romans 1, Ephesians 4, and 1 Corinthians 2, the unregenerate are "not merely ignorant, they're blinded... to the spiritual truth by nature and by Satan." This understanding should prompt humble self-examination while simultaneously driving us to depend not on our own discernment but on Christ's perfect knowledge and saving work. Memorable Quotes "Assurance is the believer's arc where he sits Noah alike quiets and still in the midst of all distractions and destructions, commotions and confusions." - Thomas Brooks, quoted by Jesse Schwamb "When we are confessing, repenting, seeking like our status in Christ because of Christ, then we have confidence that we are in fact part of the children of God. When everything is stripped away from us and all we're crying out is only and completely and solely and unequivocally Jesus Christ, then I think we have great reason to understand that we should be confident in our assurance." - Jesse Schwamb "The sacrifice and the service that a husband performs for his wife, whom he loves and trusts and is committed to and knows that she's faithful and committed to him, that is not causing that faithfulness. It's not causing that trust and that love. It is the outcome and the outflow of it." - Tony Arsenal on how good works flow from assurance rather than cause it Resources Mentioned Scripture: Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1, Ephesians 4, 1 Corinthians 2, 2 Timothy 3:5 Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 18 "Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation" Thomas Brooks: "Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices" YouTube Channel: My Wild Backyard Khan Academy: Educational resource recommended during "Affirmations and Denials" segment Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 466 of the Reform the Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. We're going back to the farm again. Can't stop. Won't stop. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. [00:01:02] Discussion on the Parable of the Tears Tony Arsenal: The last week's discussion was interesting and I think, um, it's gonna be nice to sort of round it out and talk about some things you might not think about, uh, when you first read this parable. So I'm, I'm pretty excited. Jesse Schwamb: Oh, what a tease that is. So if you're wondering what Tony's talking about, we're hanging out. In Matthew 13, we are just really enjoying these teachings of Jesus. And they are shocking and they're challenging, and they're encouraging, and they're awesome, of course. And so we're gonna be finishing out the Parable of the Tears and you need to go back and listen to the previous conversation. This, this is all set up because we have some unfinished business. We didn't talk about the eschatological implications. We have this really big this, this matza ball hanging over us. So to speak, which was the, do the TAs in this parable even know that they are tarry, that they are the TAs? And so in this parable, the disciples learn that the kingdom itself, God's kingdom, the kingdom that Jesus is enumerating and explaining and bringing into being, they are learning that it's gonna be mixed in character. So that's correcting this expectation that the kingdom would be perfectly pure and would have, would evolve righteous rule over all of the unrighteous world. And so it's a little bit shocking that Jesus says, listen, they're gonna be. Tears within the wheats that is in the world, the seed that God himself, the sun has planted and that they're gonna exist side by side for a long time. And so we, they have to wait patiently and give ourselves to building up the wheats as the sons of the kingdom and be careful in their judgment, not to harm those who are believers. We covered a lot of that last week, but left so much unsaid we couldn't even fit it in. This is gonna be jam packed, so I'm gonna stop giving the tees instead start moving us into affirmations and denials. [00:02:45] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: It's of course that time in our conversation where we either affirm with something really like or we think is undervalued or we deny against something that we don't really like or is a little overvalued. So as I usually say to you, Tony, what have you got for us? [00:03:00] YouTube Channel Recommendation: My Wild Backyard Tony Arsenal: I am affirming a YouTube channel. Um, I, I think the algorithm goes through these cycles where it wants me to learn about bugs and things because I get Okay, like videos about bugs. And so I'm, I'm interested. There's been this, uh, channel that's been coming up on my algorithm lately called My Wild Backyard, and it, it's a guy, he's like an entomologist. He seems like a, a like a legit academic, but what he does is he basically goes through and he talks about different bugs, creepy crawlies, looks at like snakes, all that kinds of stuff. It seems like his wheelhouse is the stuff that can kill you or hurt you pretty bad. Nice. But, um, it's interesting and it's. It's good educational content. It's, you know, it's not sensationalized, it's not, uh, it's not dramatized. Um, it's very real. There's occasionally an instance where he, he's not, sometimes he will intentionally get bit or stung by an, uh, by an animal to show you what it does. So he can experience and explain what he's experiencing. And sometimes he just accidentally gets bit or stung. And so those are some of the most interesting ones. So like, for example, just looking at his, his channel, his most recent, um, his most recent video is called The most venomous Desert Creatures in the US ranked the one previous was. The world's most terrifying arachni isn't a spider. And then previous to that was what happens if a giant centipede bites you? So it's interesting stuff. If you are one of those people that likes bugs and likes creepy crawlies and things, um, this is definitely the channel for you if you're not one of those people. I actually think this probably is the channel for you too. 'cause it kind of demystifies a lot of this stuff. Um. You know, for example, he, he will commonly point out that, um, spiders don't wanna bite you and they just wanna leave you alone. And, and as long as you leave them alone, even, even something like a black widow, which people are terrified of, and I think, right, rightfully so. I mean, they can be scary. Those can be scary bites. He'll, he'll handle those, no problem. And as long as he's not like putting downward pressure on them, uh, they have no interest in biting, they really just want to get away. So even seeing that kind of stuff, I think can help demystify and, and sort of, uh, make it a little bit easier. So my Wild Backyard, he can find it on YouTube. Um, he's safe for kids. He's not, he's not cussing even. I mean, I think occasionally when he gets bit on accident, you might, you know, you might have a beep here or there, but, um, he's not, he's not regularly swearing or things like that. And he does a pretty good job of adding that stuff out. Jesse Schwamb: What a great title for that, isn't it? This, yeah. Confluence of your backyard. That space that seems domesticated is also stealing its own. Right. Wild. And there's a be Yeah. Both those things coming together. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting stuff and it's really good. I mean, it's really compelling videography. He does a good job of taking good photos. You'll see insects that you usually won't see, or spiders you usually won't see. Um, so yeah, it's cool. Check it out. [00:05:51] Discussion on Spiders and Creepy Crawlies Jesse Schwamb: What are you, uh, yeah, I myself would like to become more comfortable with the arachni variety. If only be, I mean, I don't know. It's, it's a weird creature, so my instinct is to be like, kill them all. And then if I can't find them and I know they're around, then we just burn everything that we own. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: They just can't sink into the ground fast enough. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. There's something about the way they move, like their, their bodies don't move the way you would anticipate them to. Right. And it freaks, it just weirds out human sensibilities, so. Right. Jesse Schwamb: They're also like, I find them to be very surprising. Often. It's not kind of a, a very like, kind of measured welcome into your life. It's like you just go to get in the shower and there's a giant spider. Yeah. Oh yeah. Although I guess that spider, he's, he or she's probably like, whoa, where'd you come from? You know, like, yeah. He's like, I was just taking a Tony Arsenal: shower. You know what's interesting? Um, I saw another video was on a different channel, um, like common jumping spiders. Yeah. Which there are like hundreds of species of common jumping spiders. Jesse Schwamb: True. Tony Arsenal: Um, but spiders and jumping spiders specifically, actually you can form almost like a pet bond with, so like the, that jumping spider that like lives in your house and sees you every day. He, he probably knows who you are and is like, comfortable with you. And they've done studies that like you can actually domesticate jumping spiders, so they're not as foreign and alien as you might think. Although they certainly do look a little bit strange and weird. And the way their bodies move is almost designed to weird out people like it just the skinness, like the way their legs skitter and move it, it just is, it's, it triggers something very primal in us to That's wild. Be weirded out by it. Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: It's wild. I love it. That's a good, a affirmation. I'm definitely gonna check that out. I, any, anything? I really want to know what the, what like the terrifying arachni is. That's not a spider. Tony Arsenal: It's a, well, it's called a camel spider, but it's not really a spider. Oh, Jesse Schwamb: I know what you're talking about. That is kind of terrifying. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They, they actually don't have any venom. Um, yeah. Check out the video. I mean, it, it was a good video. Um, but yeah, they're freaky looking and, um, but even that, like he was handling it No problem. Yeah. Like it wasn't, it wasn't aggressive with him once Wow. Once it figured out it wasn't, he wasn't trying to hurt him and, and that it couldn't eat him. Um, it, it just sort of like hung out until he let it go. So Jesse Schwamb: yeah, just be careful if you watch it one before bed or while in bed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Probably not right before bed. Yeah. You'll, you'll get the creepy crawlies all night. Jesse Schwamb: I love it. But there's something somewhat. Like invigorating about that isn't there? Like it's, it's kind of a natural, just like kind of holy respect for the world that God has created, that they're these features that are so different, so wild, so interesting and a little bit frightening, but in the sense that we just draw off from them because they're so different than what we are. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: And you know, again, there's places you would be happy to see them, but maybe your bathtub or like shooting out, like, you know, like where you live, the jumping spiders are legit and they will just pop out on you, you know? Yeah. You're just doing your own thing and then all of a sudden they're popping out. I think part of that is just that what, what gets me is like them just, you know, like I remember in my basement here, once one popped out from a rafter and then I was holding, happened to be holding up broom. My instinct just naturally was to hit it. I hit it with the broom and it went across the room and fell on an empty box and sounded like a silver dollar had hit the box. Like it was just a massive, I mean, again, like, it's like fish stories, like it's a massive spider. It was a big spider. Yeah. But you just don't expect to, to see that kind of thing. Or maybe, maybe I should, but anything that moves in that way, and again, like centipedes, man, forget it. We have those too, like in our basement. Like the long ones. Oh yeah. Yeah. That thing will come like squiggling down the wall at you, like eye level and you just wanna run up the stairs screaming like a little girl. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, you do run up the stairs screaming like a little girl. It's not that you want to, it's that usually you do. I don't mean like you specifically, although probably you specifically. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There's, yeah, you just react. Well, j Jesse enough freaking out. I mean, we're getting close to Halloween, so I suppose it's appropriate, but, uh, enough of that. What are you affirming or denying today? Jesse Schwamb: Once again, without like any coordination, mine is not unlike yours. I know you and I, we talk about the world in which we live, which God has created, and this lovely command, this ammunition to take dominion over that. And one of the things I appreciate about our conversations is I think you and I often have maybe not like a novel. Kinda perspective on that, but one that I don't hear talked about often and that is this idea of taking dominion over what it is possible to know and to appropriate, and then to apply onto wisdom. [00:10:27] Affirmation: Khan Academy Jesse Schwamb: And so my information is in that realm. It's another form of taking ownership of what's in the wild of knowledge that you can possess. And again, equal parts. What an amazing time to be alive. So I'm affirming with the website, Khan Academy, which I'm sure many are familiar with. And this website offers like. Thousands of hours. Uh, and materials of free instructional videos, practice exercises, quizzes, all these like really bespoke, personalized learning modules you can create for topics like math, science, computing, economics, history, art. I think it goes like even starting at like. Elementary age all the way up into like early college can help you study for things like the SAT, the LSAT AP courses, and I was revisiting it. I have an open account with them that I keep in love and I go back to it from time to time. And I was working on some stuff where I wanted to rehearse some knowledge in like the calculus space, do some things by hand, which I haven't done. And I was just like, I'm blown away at how good this stuff is. And it's all for free. I mean, you should donate if you. You get something from this because it's a nonprofit, but the fact that there are these amazing instructional videos out there that can help us get a better understanding of either things we already know and we can rehearse the knowledge or to learn something brand new essentially for free. But somebody's done all the hard work to curate a pedagogy for you. Honestly, this is incredible. So if you haven't looked at that website in a long time or maybe ever, and you might be thinking, what, what do I really wanna learn? Lemme tell you. There's a lot of interesting stuff there and it's so approachable and it's such a good website for teaching. And if you have children in particular, even if you're looking for help, either helping them with their own coursework or maybe to have like kind of a tutor on the side, this is so good. So I can't say enough good things recently about Khan Academy 'cause it's been so helpful to me and super fun to like just sit and have your own paced study and in the private and comfort of your own home or your desk at work or wherever it is that you need to learn it. To be able to have somebody teach you some things, to do a little practice exercises, and then to go on to the world and to apply the things you've learned. Ah, it's so good. Tony Arsenal: Nice. Yeah, I've, I've never done anything with Khan Academy. I'll have to check it out. There's, um, there's some skills of needing to brush up on, uh, at work that I am probably not gonna be able to find in my normal channels, so I'll have to see if there is anything going on there. Um, but yeah, that's, that's good stuff. And it's free. Love freestyle. It's, and of course, like Jesse Schwamb: things like this are legion. So whatever it is, whatever your discipline or your field of study or work is, there's probably something out there and, uh, might, I humbly maybe encourage you to, if you use something like that and it's funded by donations, it's worth giving, I think, because again, it's just an amazing opportunity to take dominion over the knowledge that God has placed into the world and then to use it for something. I mean, I suppose even if all it is is you just wanna learn more about, like for me, I, I find like the subjects of, of math and science, like just endlessly fascinating and like the computing section I was looking at, I, I don't know much about like programming per se, but there is such a beauty. Like these underlying principles, like the, the organization of the world and the first level principles of like physics for instance, are just like baffling in the most glorious kind of way. How they all come together. So having somebody like teach you at a very like simplistic level, but allow you to grasp those concepts makes you just appreciate it leads me to doxology a lot when I see these things. So in a weird way, it ends up becoming maybe not a weird way and the right way. It becomes worship as often as I'm sitting at my desk and working through like a practice problem on like, you know, partial differential equation or, or derivatives is what I was working on today. And ah, it's just so good. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one. I, it's not be super nerdy, but you, are you ever like at your desk studying something? And it might not be like theological per se, but you just have a moment where you're overcome with some kind of worship. Do you know what I'm talking about? Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, this we're the nerdiest people on the planet, but let's Jesse Schwamb: do it. Um, Tony Arsenal: when I find a really fun, interesting. Uh, Excel formula and I can get it to work right. Uh, and it, and then it just like everything unlocks. Like, I feel like I've unlocked all the knowledge in the universe. Um, but yeah, I hear you like the, the Excel thing is, is interesting to me because, like, math is just the description. Like it's just the fabric of reality is just the way we describe reality. But the fact that we can do basically just take math and do all these amazing things with it, uh, in a spreadsheet is really, uh, drives me to praise. Like I said, that's super nerdy, but it is. Oh, you're speaking my language. Jesse Schwamb: I, we have never understood each other better than just this moment right now. We, we had some real talk and, uh, a real moment. Tony Arsenal: Yes. Welcome to the Reformed math cast. Jesse Schwamb: We're so glad that you're here. Tony Arsenal: Yes. We're not gonna do any one plus one plus one equals one kinds of heretical math in, up in here. Jesse Schwamb: No. Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I have a feeling that, excuse me. Wow. Jesse Schwamb: We don't edit anything out. Listen, I'm choked up too. It's it, listen, love ones just so emotional. The moment Tony and I are having it. We're gonna try our best right now to pivot to go into this text, but it's, it's tough because we were just really having something, something special. You got, you got to see there. But thank you for trying to Tony Arsenal: cover for me for that big cough. Jesse Schwamb: This is like presuppositional editing. You know, we don't actually do anything in post. It's not ex anti editing. It's, it's literally presuppositional. [00:15:52] Theological Discussion on Assurance Jesse Schwamb: But to that end, we are in Matthew 13. This is the main course. This is the reason why we're here. There's lots of reasons to worship, and one of them is to come before and admire and love our God who has given us his specific revelation and this incredible teaching of his son. And that's why we're hanging out in Matthew 13. So let me read, because we have just a couple of really sentences here, this really short parable and that way it'll catch us up and then we can just launch right back into we're, we're basically like, we're already in the rocket. Like we're in the stratosphere. We're, we're taking it all the way now. So this is Matthew chapter 13. Come hang out here. It's in the 24th verse. And this is what we find written for us. This is the word of the Lord. He put another parable before them saying. The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the weeds and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also, and the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds? He said to them, an enemy has done this. So the servant said to him, then, do you want us to go and gather them? But he said, no less than gathering the weeds, you root up the weed along with them. Let both grow until the harvest. And at harvest time, I will tell the reapers, gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but to gather the wheat into my barn. Tony Arsenal: That's good stuff. That's good stuff. Um, you know, we, we covered most of. I don't know, what do you wanna call it? The first order reading of the parable last week. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Tony Arsenal: On one level, the parable, uh, as Christ explains it, uh, a little bit down further in the chapter is extremely straightforward. It's almost out, it's almost an allegory. Each, each element of the parable has a, a, a figure that it's representing. And the main purpose of the story is that the world and specifically the church, um, is going to be a mixed body until the last days, until the end of time. And so there's, there's the Sons of God or the Sons of the Kingdom, uh, and then there's the sons of the evil one. And we talked a lot about how. These two figures in the parable, the, the, the weeds or the tears? Um, tears is a better word because it's a specific kind of, uh, specific kind of weed that looks very much like wheat at its immature stages. Right. And you can't actually discern the difference readily, uh, until the weed and the wheat has grown up next to each other. Um, and so, so part of the parable is that. The, the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the enemy, or the sons of the evil one, they don't look all that different in their early stages. And it's not until the sort of end culmination of their lives and the end culmination of things that they're able to be discerned and then therefore, um, the, the sons of the devil are, are reaped and they go off to their eternal judgment and the sons of the kingdom are, uh, are harvested and they go off to their eternal reward. What we wanted to talk about, and part of the reason that we split this into two episodes. Is that we sort of found ourselves spiraling or spiraling around a question about, uh, sort of about assurance, right? And false assurance, true assurance. And there is an eschatological element to this parable that I, I think we probably should at least touch on as we we go through it. Um, but I wanted to just read, um, it's been a little while since we've read the Westminster Confession on the show. So I wanted to read a little bit from the Westminster Confession. Um, this is from chapter 18, which is called of assurance of grace and salvation. This is sort of the answer to Jesse's question. Do the, do the tears know their tears or, or could they possibly think that their wheat? So this is, uh, section one of chapter eight. It says, although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presuppositions or presumptions of being in favor with God in the state of salvation. Which hope of their shall perish yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed. And so we, in the reform tradition at least, which is where we find ourselves in the reform tradition, um, we would affirm that people can. Deceive themselves into believing that they're in proper relation with God. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Tony Arsenal: And so it's not the case that, uh, that the weeds always know they're weeds or think they're weeds. It's not even the case. And this was part of the parable. It's not even the case that the weeds can be easily distinguished even by themselves from, uh, from the weeds. So there is this call, uh, and this is a biblical call. There's a call to seek out assurance and to lay claim to it. That I think is, is worth talking about. But it's not as straightforward as simple proposition as like, yeah, I'm confident. Like it's not just like, right, it's not just mustering up confidence. There's more to it than that. So that's what I wanted to start with, with this parable is just maybe talking through that assurance. 'cause I, I would hate for us to go through this parable. And sort of leave people with maybe you're a weed and you don't know it. 'cause that's not right. That's not the biblical picture of assurance. Um, that's the, that's the Roman Catholic picture of assurance that like, yeah, there's no such thing as assurance and people might not realize, but assurance of salvation is actually one of the, one of the primary things that was recovered particularly by the Reformed in the Reformation. Um, and so I think we, we often sort of overlook it as maybe a secondary thing. Um, but it really is a significant doctrine, a significant feature of reformed theology. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I'm glad you said that because it is a, is a clear reminder. It's a clearing call as the performers put forth that it is. Under like the purview of the Christian to be able to claim the assurance by the blood of Christ in the application of the Holy Spirit in a way that's like fully orbed and fully stopped. So you can contrast that with, and really what was coming outta Catholicism or Rome at the time. And I was just speaking with a dear brother this past week who. Grew up in the Catholic church and he was recounting how his entire religious experience, even his entire relationship, if we can call it that in a kind of colloquial sense with God, was built around this sense of deep-seated guilt and lack of true performance, such that like assurance always seemed like this really vague concept that was never really fully manifested in anything that he did. Even while the church was saying, if you do these things, if you perform this way, if you ensure that you're taking care of your immortal sins and that you're seeking confession for all the venial stuff as well, that somehow you'll be made right, or sufficiently right. But if not, don't worry about it. There's always purgatory, but there'd be some earning that you'd have to accomplish there. Everywhere along the way. He just felt beaten down. So contrasting that with what we have here. I don't believe, as you're saying, Tony, that's Jesus' intention here to somehow beat up the sheep. I, I think it is, to correct something of what's being said about the world in which we live, but it's at the same time to say that there are some that are the TAs is to say there are some that are the children of God, right? That there are some that are fully crisply, clearly identified and securely resting in that identity without any kind of nervous or anxious energy that it might fall out of that state with God that, that in fact their identity is secure. And as I've been thinking about this this week, I, I'm totally with you because I think part of this just falls, the warning here is there's a little bit of the adventures in Romans one here that's waiting for us, that I like what you said about this idea of, of self deception and maybe like a. Subpart to this question would be, are the, are the terrors always nefarious in their lack of understanding? So we might say there's some that are purposely disruptive, that the enemy himself is, is promulgating or trying to bring forward his destruction, his chaos by way of these tears. But are, are there even a subgroup or another group, uh, co-terminus group or, you know, one in the same hierarchy where there's just a lot of self deception? I, I think that's probably where I fall in terms of just trying to explain that. Yes, I think it was present here is a real quantity, a real identity where they're self-deceived. Imagining themselves to be part of God's people, yet lacking that true saving faith. And this just, I'm gonna go in a couple places where I think everybody would expect in the scriptures, if we go to like Ephesians four, they're darkened and they're understanding alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them. And one Corinthians, when Paul writes, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, and he's not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned. And then the book that follows the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. And of course then like everything in Romans one, so I bring all that up because E, even at the end, we're gonna get there, the Es, this eschatological reality when you know God is separating out the sheep and the goats. Still, we find this kind of same trope happening there. But the unregenerate, what I'm reading from this. Importantly is that the unregenerate, they're not merely ignorant, they're blinded, as we all were on point to the spiritual truth. Yeah. By nature and by Satan. That that is also his jam. He loves to blind, to lie, to kill, steal, and destroy. So thus, even if they're outwardly belonging to the church, they're outwardly belonging to the world. They're outwardly belonging to some kind of profession. They cannot perceive the reality of their lost condition apart from divine illumination. Who can, that might be stating the obvious, but I think that's like what we're getting after here. I I, I don't know if there's like any kind of like conspiracy here. It's simply that that is the natural state of affairs. So why wouldn't we expect that to be reflected again in the world and that side by side, we're gonna find that shoulder to shoulder. We are, there are the children of God, and there are those that remain blind and ignorant to the truth. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, it, again, I, I, um, I don't know why I'm surprised. Uh, I certainly shouldn't be surprised. Um. But Matthew is like a masterful storyteller Yeah. Here, right. He's a masterful, um, editor and narrator. Um, and he's, he's put together here, of course, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Um, and, and there's some good reason to think in the text we're not gonna get too, in the nitty gritty here, there's some good reason to think in the text that Christ actually delivered these parables as a set as well. So it's not just, it's not just Matthew coating these, although it could be. Um, but it, it seems like these were all delivered probably as like a common set of parables. And the reason I say that is because when we start to look at this parable and the one we previously went through, the parable of the soils, um, or the parable of the sower. Um, what we see is the answer to your question of why do some people, you know, why are some people deceived? Well, yes, there is secondary causation. The devil deceives them. They blind themselves. They, you know, suppress the, the, the truth and right unrighteousness. But on a, on a primary causation level, um, God is the one who is identi, is, is identifying who will be the sons of the, you know, devil and the sons of the kingdom. Mm-hmm. This is another, and yet another example of election is that the, the good sower sowed good seed, and the good seed was the elect and the enemy. Although in God's sovereignty, God is the one who determines this. The enemy is the one who sows the reprobate. Right? So all, all men. Star, and this is, I, I guess I didn't really intend to go here, but this is good evidence in my mind for, um, infra laps, Arianism versus super laps. Arianism, right infra laps, arianism or sub lapse. Arianism would say that God decrees, uh, to permit the fall and then he decrees to redeem some out of the fall, right? Logically speaking, not temporally speaking. Super laps. Arianism, which is the minority. It's the smaller portion of, of the historic tradition, although modern times, I think it's a little bit louder and a little bit more vocal, but super relapses. Arianism would argue that God, um, decrees. Sort of the, the decree of election and reprobation is logically prior to the decree of the fall. And so in, in that former or in the super laps area model, the fall becomes a means by which the reprobate are justly condemned. Not, um, not the cause of their condemnation, but a way to sort of justify the fact that they will be separated from God, right? Because of their reprobate. [00:28:36] Exploring the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares Tony Arsenal: I know that there's, there's probably some super lab streams that would nuance that differently and some that are probably just screaming straw man, uh, in a coffee shop somewhere and, and people are thinking you're crazy. Um, but by and large, that's actually a rel, a relatively accepted, um, explanation of it. There are certainly potential problems with, uh, sub, sub lapse agonism as well. But in this, in this parable, what we see is the people who are, um, who are elect, are sowed into the field and the people who are reprobate are also sowed into the field. And so God saves the people who are sewed into the field that are, they elect, he saves them out of this now mixed world by waiting and allowing them to grow up next to the reprobate, um, in sort of this mixed world setting. And then he redeems them out of that. Um, and, and, and so we have to sort of remember. Although it is a pretty strict, sort of allegorical type of parable, it's still a parable. So we shouldn't, we shouldn't always draw like direct one-to-one comparisons here. It's making a theological point, but, um, but it's important for us to re remember that, that it is ultimately, it is God who determines who is the elected and who is not. But it's, it's our sin. It's the devil deceiving us. It's the secondary causes that are responsible for the sons of the devil, right? It, the, the men come to the, to the sower and say, who is done this? He says it was an enemy. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right. Tony Arsenal: He doesn't say like, well, actually I put the seed there and so, you know, I'm, I, it's not an equal distribution. He's not sowing good seed and bad seed. He sows the good seed and the devil sows the bad seed. [00:30:24] Theological Implications and Assurance Tony Arsenal: Um, and, and that's a, I think that's an important theological point to make. And as far as assurance goes. We, we can't depend on our ability to perceive or sort of like discern election in a raw sense, right? We have to observe certain kinds of realities around us. Um, and, and primarily we have to depend on the mercy and, and saving faith that God gives us. That's right. Um, you know, our, our assurance of faith does not primarily come from fruit checking. Um, we have to do that. It's important, we're commanded to do it, and it serves as an important secondary evidence. But a, a, a person who wants to find assurance. Of salvation should first and foremost look to the promises of Christ and then depend on them. Um, and, and so that's, I think all of that's kind of wrapped up into this parable. It's, it's, it's amazing to me that we're only like two parables in, and we're already, you know, we're already talking about super lapse arianism and sub lapse arianism, and it's, it's amazing. I, I love this. I'm loving this series so far, and we're barely scratching the surface. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's all there. I think you're right to call that out. It strikes me, like, as you were speaking, it really just hit me higher that I think you're right. Really the foundation on this, like the hidden foundation is assurance and it's that assurance which splits the groups, or at least divides them, or it gives us, again, like the distinct, kind, discrete compartments or components of each of them. So. Again, I think it's help saying, 'cause we wanna be encouraging. That's, that's our whole point here is when the Apostle Peter says, be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choosing of you. That herein we have the scripture saying to us, time and time again, be sure of what God has done in your life. Be confident in that very thing. And so if assurance is, as we're saying, that's the argument hypothesis we're making. That's the critical thing here. [00:32:11] False Assurance and True Faith Jesse Schwamb: Then the division between the children of God and the children of the devil is false versus true assurance. So the tears, I think what we're saying here, basically they typically live under false asserts. They may attend church, confess, belief, appear righteous, yet their hearts are unregenerate. Their faith is maybe historical. It's not saving, it could be intellectual, but it's not spiritual. And of course, like just a few chapters before this, we hope those famous verses where Jesus himself drops the bomb and says, listen, many of you, he's talking to the people, the, the disciples around him, the crowds that we're gathering and thronging all about. He says, many of you're gonna say to me, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy your name? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: And then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me. These are not people who knew they were false, they thought they belonged to Christ. Their shock on judgment day is gonna reveal this profound self-deception. And that self-deception is wrapped up in a false type of assurance, a false righteousness. So I think one of the things that we can really come to terms with and grab a hold of is the fact that when we are. Confessing, repenting seeking like our status in Christ because of Christ. Then we have confidence that we are in fact part of the children of God. When everything is stripped away from us and all we're crying out is only and completely and solely and unequivocally, Jesus Christ, then I think we have great reason to understand that we should be confident in our assurance. [00:33:38] Historical Perspectives on Assurance Jesse Schwamb: You know, I was reading this week from Thomas Brooks and did incidentally come across this, a quote, an assurance and reminded me of this passage, and here's what he writes. You know, of course he's writing in like 16 hundreds, like mid 16 hundreds. It's wild, of course, but we shouldn't be surprised that what you're about to hear sounds like it could have been written today for us. In this conversation, but, uh, he writes, assurance is the believer's arc where he sits Noah alike quiets and still in the midst of all distractions and destructions, commotions and confusions. However, most Christians live between fears and hopes and hang, as it were, between heaven and hell. Sometimes they hope that their state is good. At other times they fear that their state is bad. Now they hope that all is well and that it shall go well. Well with them forever. Then they fear that they shall perish by the hand of such corruption or by the prevalency of such and such temptation. They're like a ship and a storm tossed here and there, and. I think that he's right about that. And I think the challenge there is to get away from that. I love where it starts, where he says, what wonderful turn of phrase assurance is the believer's arc or Noah, like, you know, we're sitting and the commotion, the destructions, the commotion, the confusions of all the world. That's why to get this right, to be encouraged by this passage, to be challenged by it is so critical because we're all looking for that arc. We all want to know that God has in fact arrested us so completely that no matter what befalls us, that everything, as we talked about before, all of our, all of the world, in fact is subservient to our salvation. But that's a real thing that cannot be snatched away from us because God has ordained it and intended it, built it, created it, and brought it to pass. And so I think that's all like in this passage, it's all the thing that's being called us to. So. I, I don't want us to get like too hung up. It's a good question, I think to ask and answer like we were trying to talk about here, but you're right. If we focus too much just on the like, let's gaff for these tears. Who are they? Like let's people's, like Readers Digest in People's magazine these tears. Like who are they? Do we have a list of them? Who do we think they are? How could it be me? Is it really me? Am I, am I anxious about that? Really what we should be saying is following what Peter calls us to do that is to be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and his choosing. So even there like our emphasis and focus, isn't it like you're saying Tony about like, let me do some fruit inventory. I got like a lot of good bananas. I got a lot of ripe pears. Like, look at the tree. This, this is good. Even there, the emphasis is to turn our eyes on Jesus, as it were, and to make certain about his work, his calling and his choosing of us. And I think when we do that, we're falling down in worship and in yielding and submission to him, rightfully acknowledging that the righteousness of Christ is the one that is always in every way alien to us and imputed. And that is what makes us sons and daughters of God, that good seed sown by Jesus himself. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna read, I wanna um, round out a few more paragraphs here out of the Westminster confession because I do think, you know, when we even talk about assurance, we're not even always all saying the exact same thing. And I think that's important because when we talk about assurance of faith, we need to be understanding that this is the rightful, not only the rightful possession of all Christians, but it's the rightful responsibility of all Christians to seek it. So here's, here's section two of that same chapter. It says, this certainty referring to assurance. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a, a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the spirit of adoption, witnessing with our hearts that we are the children of God, which spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption. So. One of the, the things that I think is, is important here is people read this and say the inward evidences of those graces unto which these promises are made. They read that and they think that it's referring to like good work and like spiritual renewal, but it's, it's not, it's the inward evidence of those graces unto which of the promises are made. So it's this inner, inner renewal. It's the spirit testifying to our spirit. And then, um, chapter, uh, section three here, it says. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it, yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given of God. He may without extraordinary revelation there, right there is response to Roman Catholicism in the right use of ordinary means at attain there unto. And therefore, it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence, to make his calling and election. Sure. And thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and in joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience. The proper fruits of this assurance so far is it from inclining men to looseness? Right. [00:38:53] The Role of Good Works in Assurance Tony Arsenal: So we often hear and and I, I think there are good, um, there are good reformed Christians that put. The emphasis of assurance on, or they, they put an overemphasis, in my opinion, on how good works function within our assurance. Right. They, they often will ask us to look to our good fruit as sort of, not the grounding, but as a strong evidence. But at least in terms of the confession here, the cheerfulness in the duties of obedience is the fruit of assurance. Jesse Schwamb: That's right. Not Tony Arsenal: the cause or grounding of assurance. So rather than, this is what this last line says. It says so far, is it from inclining? Mental looseness assurance should drive us to obedience and fruitfulness in Christ. And so yes, it is in a certain sense an evidence because if that fruitfulness and obedience is absent from our lives, there's a good reason for us to question whether this infallible assurance is present in our lives. But the assurance is what drives us to this obedience. Um. You know, like, I think you could use the analogy of like a married couple. A married couple who is very secure in their relationship and in their, uh, love for one another and their faithfulness to each other is more likely to cheerfully serve and submit to each other and to respect each other and to sacrifice for each other than a couple that's maybe not so sure that the other person has their best interest in mind. That's or maybe isn't so sure that this thing is gonna work out. I think that's the same thing, like the sacrifice and the service that a husband, uh, performs for his wife, whom he loves and trusts and is committed to and knows that she's faithful and committed to him. That is not causing that faithfulness. It's not causing that trust and that love. It is the outcome and the outflow of it. It's good evidence that that love exists, but it's not caused by it. And assurance here is the same kind of dynamic assurance is not. We can't assure ourselves of our salvation by doing good works. No matter how many good works you do, there are lots and lots of people who are not saved and who will not be saved, who do perfectly good works in appearance. Right. They have the, the outward appearance of godliness, but lack its power. Right, right. Out of right outta Paul, writing to Timothy there. Yes. So that's, that's important for us as we continue to parse all this out, is yes, the fruit is present. Yes. The wheat is to, is discernible from the tears by its final, fruitful status. Right? It grows up to be grain, which is fruitful rather than weeds and tears, which are only good to be burned, but it is not the fruit that causes it to be wheat. It's wheat that causes the fruit to grow. If, if it wasn't wheat, it wouldn't grow fruit, not because the fruit makes it grain, but because it is in fact wheat to start with. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that's right on. So I think like by summation we're kind of saying. At least the answer to this question. You know, do the tears know that they're tears? Yes and no. Some do, some don't. I think, yes, there are some that are gonna be consciously hypocritical, willfully rejecting Christ while pretending for worldly gain. I think that's, that's certainly plain to see. And at the same time, do the tears know the tears? Sometimes? No. There's self deceived under spiritual blindness and they have some kind of false assurance. And this idea of, again, coming in repentance before God and seeking humbly to submit to him is I think one of those signs of that kind of true assurance, not a false assurance. And you already stole where I was thinking of Tony by going to Second Timothy again. Thomas Brooks in precious remedies against Saint's device is one of like the best. Books ever. I know that he's really outspoken. He loves to harp on the fact that one of Satan's most effective snares is to make men and women content with a form of godliness without its power. Yeah. And that's often what we're talking about here, I think, is that Satan loves to fish in the shallow waters a profession. And really that can happen in any kind of church or religious culture, that there is this shallowness where that loves religious appearance, prayer, knowledge fellowship, but not the Christ behind them. And so whether we're looking to somebody like Brooks or Jonathan Edwards and we're trying to parse out what are our true affections, not in a way again, that somehow leans well, I feel enough, then somehow that justifies, not inwardly, but again, definitely trying to understand our conviction for conversion tears. For repentance that. Really what we're after is not like just the blessings of Christ, but Christ himself, which I think really leads us to this eschatological perspective then to round all everything out because you know, we talked about before, there's an old phrase, it's like everywhere. A lot of people talk in heaven. Not everybody's going there. And so this idea of like, people will talk about be so great to be there and it's sometimes this, the heaven that they speak of is like absent Christ, you know, as if like, if Christ wasn't there, at least in their perspective, it still wouldn't be half bad. And so I think that does lead us to understand what is this in gathering? What is this? You know, bringing everything into the barn and burning everything else up. And like you just said, if at the beginning you cannot tell the injurious weed aside from that beautiful kernel of wheat that's coming up, but if in the end you can see what's happening in the end, then that brings us all to consummation. What does it mean in this parable? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:44:19] Eschatological Judgment and Assurance Tony Arsenal: And, and I think this actually sort of forces us to grapple a little bit with, with another sort of persnickety feature of this parable that, that I think, I think personally sometimes gets overlooked is we are very quick to talk about this parable to be about the church. And it is. Right. And, and there's reasons to talk like that. But when Christ explains the parable, he doesn't say the field is the church. He says the field is the world. Right. And so we have to, we have to, we have to do a little bit of, um. We have to do a little bit of hermeneutics to understand that this is also speaking of the church, right? It's not as though the church is some hermetically sealed off body that the dynamics of the world and the, the weed and the tears like that, that doesn't happen in the church. But when we talk about the end of the age here, he says the son of man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom. All causes of sin in all lawbreakers. Right? So, so the, the final eschatological judgment, it's all encompassing. And I dunno, maybe I'm, maybe I'm becoming a little bit post mill with this, um, the, the world is already the Kingdom of Christ. Right? Right. That's right. It, it's not, it's not just the church on earth that is the kingdom of Christ. And so when we talk about this eschatological reaping, um, what we see is, is very straightforward. There are those who are, uh, who belong to Christ, who were sown by him into the world, who were, uh, were tended by him, who were protected by him, who he intended to harvest from the very beginning, right? The good sower sows good seed into the field, and that good seed is and necessarily will be wheat. It's not as though, um, it's not as though, and again, this is one of those ways where like the parables sometimes, uh, are telling a little bit of a different story. Even though they're sharing some themes in the first parable, in the parable of the sower, he sows the same seed into the world. But the seed in that first parable is not the, is not the person receiving the seed. The seed is the one is the word of God. Yes. And so the word of God is sewn promiscuously, even to those who will be hard soil and who will be rocky soil and have thorns. The word of God is, is sewn to all of those people. Across the whole world in this parable. The seed that is the good seed that is sown is and always was going to be weed that was, or wheat, which was going to grow into fruitfulness and be gathered into the barn. Right? That was a foregone conclusion. The, the, when the sower decided to sow seed, all of that said he is the one who did that. He's the one that chose that. He's the one that will bring us to completion, right? And then also the ones that are not of his kingdom, the sons of the devil, they will also be reaped at the end. Actually we'll be reaped before the, you know, they'll be reaped and gathered and, and tossed into the furnace before the sons of the kingdom are gathered together. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Tony Arsenal: So it, again, this is a parable and even though this is Christ's explanation of the parable, I don't think that Christ was intending to give us like a strict timeline. Right. I don't think he was encouraging us to draw a chart and try to map out where this all happens in order. Um, I do think it's relevant that, that, at least in the explanation of this parable, I mentioned it last week, that, that the rap, the rapture is actually the wicked being raptured. They're the ones that are gathered and taken out of the world and cast into the fiery furnace before the, before the righteous are gathered together and, and brought into Christ Barn. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's a great unmasking that's happening here in this final stage. I mean, that's critically the point. I think there's a lot of stuff we could talk about open handedly and kind of hypothesize or theorize what it means. But what is plain, I think, is that there's this unmasking, this unveiling of the reality of the light of Christ's perfect judgment. But that judgment is for both parties Here it is coming and what was hidden beneath outward religion or more, a facade is gonna be revealed with eternal clarity. That's just the reality. It is coming. So in some ways it pairs. I think at least well in this, well purposely of course in this teaching because Jesus is saying, hold on, like we talked about last time. Do this is not for you to judge. You are ill-equipped. You are not skilled enough to discern this. And therefore though, you wanna go in hot and get spicy and try to throw out all the weeds. Wait for the right time. Wait for the one like you're saying, Tony has from all of eternity past intended for it to be this way. Super intending his will over all things in the casting of the seed. And as we say, Philippians, of course, finishing that good work, which was started, he will finish. It is God's two finish again. And so he says, listen, that day is coming. There's gonna be a great unmasking. Uh, get ready for it. And the scriptures bear witness to that in so many other ways. So. There's such a journey in these like handful of verses, isn't there? I mean, it's really wild. The things that not like we come up with or we read into the text, but as we sit in it a little bit, as we just spend even a cursory amount of time letting it pour over us, that we find there's like a conviction in a weight in these things that are beyond just the story and beyond just even like the illustrations themselves. What we find is, again, it's as if Jesus himself in his brilliance, of course, through the power of the Holy Spirit, is illuminating the mind in the spirit to open up our conception, understanding of the kingdom of God by bringing it to us through his perspective in our own terms, of course, which is both our language and like the context of the world in which we live, and that simple example of farming and seed. And again, even just that there are these interest weeds that look like wheat. I went on this like rabbit hole this week and did a lot of research on like tears and Yeah, like especially people in like the Midwest United States who like know a lot more about agriculture than I do have a lot to say about this. It's not just like we shouldn't be surprised like. Isn't it incredible that like there are actually weeds out there that look like, yeah, it's a brilliance of just knowing that this teaching is so finely tuned. Like we can even just talk about that. Like the world is finely tuned. This teaching is so finely tuned to these grant theological principles that we can at one point be children and appropriate them enough and assume them into our own intellectual capacity so that we can trust in them. And yet even as like adults with like, let's say like the greatest gift of intellectual capacity, still find that we cannot get to the bottom of them because they're so deep. They draw us into these really, really grand vistas or really like extremely deep cold theological waters. And I just find. That I am in awe then of what Jesus is saying here because there's a truth for us in assurance that we ought to clinging to. And there's also like stuff that we should come back to. We shouldn't just stop it here and put it out of our minds until the next time we, we want to just be stimulated by something that's interesting or that we want to just grab somebody and shake them cage style, cage two style and say like, look at this great thing that I just learned about this, this particular parable. But instead, there's so much here for us to meditate on. And in that, I think rather than the Christian finding fear in this parable, what they should find is great comfort. We should be Noah alike sitting in the ark saying, it is well with my soul. And our reason for that is because we know God has cast a seed through his son Jesus Christ. And to be a child, a child of God is the greatest thing in all the universe. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I, I think that, um, transitions nicely to, uh, I'll make this point quick because we're coming up on time here. Um. [00:52:04] Christ's Divinity and Sovereignty Tony Arsenal: The other little subtle thing that Christ does here in this parable is he, he absolutely asserts his divinity and sovereignty overall creation. Jesse Schwamb: That's right. Yep. Tony Arsenal: Right. It, it's almost like a throw. There's a couple little like lines that are almost throwaway lines, right in the, the first, the beginning of the parable here. Um, the parable itself, uh, he says, um, the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed into a field. And then he says, um, the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, right? And then when he interprets the parable, he says, well, the, the servants are, the field is the world, right? So he's the master of the world, and the servants are the angels. So he's the master of the angels. And then if, if there was any doubt left in your mind. Says in verse 41, the son of man will send his angels. That's right. And they will gather out of his kingdom, which is the world, all the causes of sin and all lawbreakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. Right? So we have this, this robust picture that there is election. The the good sower sows good seed into the world, and the good seed will necessarily grow into wheat and will be preserved and protected and ultimately harvest Well, why can we have assurance that that will be the case? Well, because the master of the house is the son of man who is the Lord of the universe and the creator of all things. And his angels do his will. That's right. So, so the whole thing is all wrapped up. Why can we have assurance? Because God is a good God and Christ is a good savior, and the savior of the world is the creator of the universe, right? If any of those facts were not true. Then we couldn't have assurance. If God wasn't good, then maybe he's lying. If Christ wasn't the savior of the world or the God of the universe, the creator of the universe, then he wasn't worthy to be the one who saves. All of this is wrapped up in the parables, and this is what's so exciting about the parables. In most of the instances that we look up, especially of the sort of longer parables, these kinds of dynamics are there where it's not just a simple story making a simple point, it is making one primary point. Usually there's one primary point that a, that a parable is making. But in order to make that primary point, there's all these supporting points and supporting things that have to be the case. If the, if the good sower was not the master of the house and a, a competent, uh, a competent landowner who knew the difference between wheat and weeds, even at the early stage, right? His, his servants go and go, what happened? What's with all of these weeds? They can tell the difference somehow, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: He's immediately able to go, well, this was an enemy. Jesse Schwamb: That's right. Tony Arsenal: And while they're bumbling around going, should we go rip it all up and start over? He is like, no, no, no, no. Just wait until, wait until it all grows up together. And when that happens, the Reapers will come and they'll take care of it and they'll do it in my direction, right? Because he's competent, he's the savior, he's the creator, he's the good master, he is the good sower. Um, we can be confident that not only is our assurance provided for us, our salvation is provided for us, but it's provided for us and secured for us both our assurance and our salvation itself because of who Christ is and what he's done. And the fact that he is the, the ruler and the creator and the sovereign overall things. [00:55:21] Final Thoughts and Community Engagement Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in this conversation? Well, it seems clear that Jesus in this parable is calling believers to a patient faith, humble self-examination, but also to assurance, yes, a rock solid assurance, knowing that the wheat, those truly united to Christ by grace will never be uprooted and are surely going to be gathered into his eternal kingdom. I think we've also learned that if you're looking for love in your life, you're looking for an inexpensive pet, the jumping spider is really where you wanna be. So the next time you see one, don't be so quick to just grab your shoe, instead name it, claim it, and start to take dominion over it. Tony Arsenal: I don't know where to go from there. Are you gonna name it? Joel Olsteen The Jumping Spider. Joel The Jumping Spider. Jesse Schwamb: There we go. We listen. We've started so many trends in our 466 episodes, it seems. Why should we stop now? Why should we stop that? We shouldn't stop now. Honestly, if you wanna join us in all of this trend setting, and I can tell you, listen, if there's something I hear about the Refer Brothered podcast, it's that we are trendsetters. That's really the number one feedback we get. So why don't you join us in that? You've heard us say it before, but we will not stop inviting you to come hang out with us in our little corner of the internet that's in our own little chat group, and you can get there by going to T Me Reform Brotherhood. You know it loved ones. I know you've heard it, so this is your chance. There's no better time than now, except before. You know, it's like they say like, when's the best time to plant a tree like 50 years ago or today? So if you haven't joined yet, you should join now by going to t.me. Access Foreign Brotherhood. Do you take through chat and there's all kinds of brothers and sisters and they're there hanging out processing with us and a lot of great conversation about this particular series because there's so much great stuff to talk about. Like someday I'd like to think like, we'll do this stuff, Tony. Like we never get to, we'll just do a whole series, which will be like probably a decade long and we'll just call it like all the deleted scenes, like the things that we wanted to say or like, 'cause I know you and I that we don't plan for like an actual outline of the episodes. We are, we are so good at this podcasting thing now that I can tell when we are both self editing because like the time is coming to an end. Yeah. Or we just know that like. We could talk about this parable for like another four episodes, honestly. Mm-hmm. I think you and I could just go there, but we know, listen, it's time to move on. Someday we'll do those episodes. But you know what a great place for that to happen is in the Telegram chat. Like, come hang out there, talk about all the stuff that you wanted to hear and didn't hear, and we can talk about all the stuff we wish we could say, but the time alluded us, it's a great place to come hang out. So I've gotta tell you that's that's a place you want to be on the internet. Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's true. And one last thing, if you're, if you're still listening to this, then you're among the most loyal people who listen through all the announcements. Uh, what you could do that would really help us out actually is go to iTunes, or I guess you can do it on Spotify. Uh, leave a review. Um, the reviews don't change how easily people find us in the algorithm, although reviews are searchable, so people will occasionally find it through like Google or something like that. True. But what it does do is if people do stumble upon the show and they're trying to figure out if they want to commit time to listening to it, they look at the reviews. I look at reviews when I'm gonna listen to a new show. Um, I look at reviews when I'm buying a new product. Um, so what we would really appreciate it, I think our most recent review is from like two years ago. Jesse Schwamb: Oh, wow. People been out there. So Tony Arsenal: if you're, if you are listening to the sound of my voice right now and you've, it. Into 58 minutes and through all of the announcements, uh, please go. I would assume if you're still listening that you think this show is worth five stars. Please go give us an honest five star review. Leave a comment explaining what you like about the show, maybe something you've learned. Uh, and we would also love it if you would just share the episode with a friend. Find someone that you know that you think would benefit from this. Uh, maybe their wheat, maybe their tears. Who knows, the Lord knows. But share the episode with them. Uh, it gives 'em something to think about. Uh, and we would really appreciate that Jesse Schwamb: more parables coming at you next time. We got so many on top there, all stacked up. Yep. And we're just going to keep getting after them. So again, what a blessing to be able to jump into the teachings of Jesus. And already, I think if anybody was surprised that we've only done, we've done two, right? Yep. Two in like four episodes. Is that what It's five Tony Arsenal: episodes? Jesse Schwamb: Five episodes. I underestimate it still. And the whole point I was gonna make as a joke was. Did Was anybody surprised that we're taking? Tony Arsenal: Apparently you were. Jesse Schwamb: And I still couldn't even get Yeah. I inadvertently surprised myself. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Little funny story. And then we will, we'll log off. Uh, you know, I use, I use artificial intelligence to help me write some of the show notes just because that's like the most tedious, boring part of any podcast producer's world is trying to write show notes. And I had to work really hard to convince the AI that I use, that we weren't doing a series on the Parable of the sower, that we were doing a series on the parables, uh, just because we did a, we did a, apparently a three part series on the Parable of the Sower, and it was convinced we were doing a two part series on the Parable of the, the Tears. So it, it just goes to show like, you can, you can do a lot, you can talk a lot. And, um, you know, I think these are gonna be great episodes. I've already learned a ton. Me too. So I'm excited, Jesse. And until next time, honor everyone. Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In episode 465 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore Jesus's parable of the wheat and tares (weeds) from Matthew 13. This thought-provoking discussion examines Christ's startling teaching that good and evil will always coexist within the visible church until the end of time. The brothers carefully unpack the theological implications of Jesus's command not to separate wheat from weeds prematurely, challenging our natural tendency to judge others while offering wisdom about God's sovereign plan for final judgment. This episode wrestles with difficult questions about church purity, assurance of salvation, and how believers should approach the reality of false professors within Christ's church—providing biblical guidance for faithfully enduring in a mixed communion. Key Takeaways The Coexistence of True and False Believers: Jesus teaches that the visible church will always contain a mixture of genuine believers and false professors until the final judgment. The Danger of Premature Judgment: Christ explicitly warns against attempting to completely purify the church before the harvest (end of age) because doing so would damage the wheat (true believers). Proper Biblical Interpretation: Unlike some parables, Jesus provides a detailed allegorical explanation of this parable—the sower is Christ, the field is the world, the good seed represents believers, and the weeds are the sons of the evil one. The Challenge of Discernment: One of the most difficult theological pills to swallow is that it's often impossible to perfectly distinguish between true and false believers. Final Judgment as God's Prerogative: The separation of wheat from weeds is reserved for the angels at the end of the age, not for current church leaders or members. The Reality of False Assurance: Some professing Christians may have false assurance of salvation while genuinely believing they are saved. The Importance of Theological Integrity: Public theologians and pastors have a moral responsibility to be transparent about their theological convictions and changes in their beliefs. Deeper Explanations The Difficult Reality of a Mixed Church Jesus's teaching in the parable of the wheat and weeds directly challenges our natural desire for a perfectly pure church. By instructing the servants not to pull up the weeds lest they damage the wheat, Christ is establishing an important ecclesiological principle that will hold true until His return. This means that no matter how rigorously we apply church discipline or how carefully we examine profession of faith, we will never achieve a perfectly pure communion this side of eternity. The visible church—which can be understood as those who profess faith and are baptized—will always include both true and false believers. This reality should cultivate humility in how we approach church membership and discipline. Jesus isn't suggesting that all attempts at church purity are wrong (as other Scripture passages clearly call for church discipline), but rather that perfect purification is impossible and attempts at achieving it will inevitably damage true believers. This teaching directly refutes movements throughout church history (like Donatism) that have sought absolute purity in the visible church. The Problem of Discernment and Assurance One of the most challenging aspects of this parable is Christ's implicit teaching that true and false professors can appear nearly identical, especially in their early development. Like tares growing alongside wheat, false believers can profess orthodox doctrine, participate in church life, and exhibit what appears to be spiritual fruit. This creates profound implications for how we understand assurance of salvation. As Tony notes, while "assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian," there's also the sobering reality of false assurance. Some may sincerely believe they are saved when they are not, raising difficult questions about self-examination and spiritual discernment. This doesn't mean believers should live in perpetual doubt, but rather that we should approach assurance with both confidence in God's promises and healthy self-examination. True assurance must be grounded in the finished work of Christ rather than merely in our experiences or behaviors, while false assurance often lacks this proper foundation. The brothers wisely note that final judgment belongs to God alone, who perfectly knows who belongs to Him. Memorable Quotes "The visible church is set before us as a mixed body. Maybe everybody else's churches, but certainly not my church, like the one that I actually go to on the Lord's day. So it seems like there might be this shocking statement possibly that he has for us, whether you're Episcopalian or Presbyterian or independent or Baptist or Christian life assembly, whatever it is, that no matter what we do to purify the church, our churches, we're never gonna succeed in obtaining a perfectly pure communion." - Jesse Schwamb "I think that's what I find shocking. It is like a massive statement of reality that is at equal points totally sensible. And other times we would think, 'well, surely not in the church Lord, like of all the places, like aren't we talking about a kind of purity of your people?' ...and what I think he's striking at, which I do find a little bit wild, is that Jesus is essentially saying, at least to my ear, anything we try to do, even the purest preaching of the gospel, is not gonna prevent this in every age of the church." - Jesse Schwamb "I'm affirming that assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 465 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Guess what? It looks like you and I are taking another trip back to the farm on this episode. Tony Arsenal: Yes. For a couple episodes. Jesse Schwamb: For a couple episodes. Yeah. [00:01:01] Exploring Jesus' Parables in Matthew 13 Jesse Schwamb: Because what, Jesus will not stop leading us there. We're looking at his teachings, specifically the parables, and we're gonna be looking in Matthew chapter 13, where it seems like, is it possible that Jesus, once again has something very shocking for us to hear? That is for all the ages. 'cause it seems like he might actually be saying, Tony, that good and evil will always be found together in the professing church until the end of the world. Like in other words, that the visible church is set before a mixed body. I mean. Maybe everybody else chose churches, but certainly not my church, like the one that I actually go to on the Lord's day. So it seems like there might be this shocking statement possibly that he has for us, whether you're Episcopalian or Presbyterian or independent or Baptist or Christian life assembly, whatever it is, that no matter what we do to purify the church, our churches, we're never gonna succeed in obtaining a perfectly pure communion. Could that possibly be what Jesus is saying to us? I don't know what we're gonna find out. Tony Arsenal: We are. We are gonna find out. Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be definitive. And if now that makes sense. If you don't even know why we're looking at Jesus' teachings, you could do us a favor even before you go any further. And that is just head on over in your favor, interwebs browser to or reform brotherhood.com, and you can find out all of the other episodes, all 464 that are living out there. There's all kinds of good stuff, at least we think so, or at least entertaining stuff for you to listen to. And when you're done with all of that in a year or two, then we'll pick it up right back here where we're about to go with some affirmations or some denials. [00:02:39] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: So Tony, before we figure out what Jesus has for us in Matthew 13, in the parable of the weeds, or the tears, or the tears in the weed, what gets all of that? Are you affirming with, are you denying against, Tony Arsenal: I am denying. First of all, I'm denying whatever this thing is that's going on with my throat. Sorry for the rest of the episode, everyone. Um, I'm denying something that I, I think it is. How do I want to phrase this? Um, maybe I'll call it theological integrity, and maybe that's too strong of a word, but maybe not. So the listener who's been with us for a little while will remember that a while back. Um, you know, we've, we've talked about Matthew Barrett and he was a Baptist, uh, who's heavily involved in sort of the theology, proper controversies. He wrote Simply Trinity, which is just a fantastic book. He was a teacher or a professor at Midwestern, um, Baptist Theological Seminary. And he recently, um, uh, converted is not the right word. I hate calling it a conversion when you go from one faithful Bible tradition to another. But he recently, um, changed his perspective and joined the Anglican Church. And at the time I kind of, you know, I kind of talked about it as like, it's a little bit disappointing, like the reasons he cited. [00:03:57] Theological Integrity and Public Disclosure Tony Arsenal: Where I'm bringing this into a matter of sort of theological integrity. And it's not, it's not just Matthew Barrett. Um, there's other elements of things going on that I'll, I'll point to too is it's often the case when someone who is in some form of professional theological work or professional vocational ministry, that as they start to change perspectives, um, there comes to be like an inflection point where they should notify whoever it is that they are accountable to in that job or vocation, uh, uh, and then do the right thing and step down. Right? And so with Matthew Barrett, um. He continued to teach systematic theology at a Baptist Theological Seminary, which has a faith statement which he was obligated to affirm and hold in good faith. He continued to teach there for quite some time, if, you know, when he, when he published the timeline and he's the one that put all the timelines out there. So it's not like people had to go digging for this. Um, he continued to teach under contract and under that, that faith statement, um, for quite some time after his positions changed. I remember in college, um, sim very similar situation, one of my professors, um, and I went to a Baptist college. It was a General Baptist college. Um, one of my professors became Roman Catholic and for quite some time he continued to teach without telling anyone that he had converted to Roman Catholicism. Um. And I think that there's a, there's a, a level of integrity that public theologians need to have. Um, and it, it really makes it difficult when something like this happens to be able to say that this is not a moral failing or some sort of failure. Um, you know, James White has jumped on the bandwagon very quickly to say, of course we told you that this was the way it was gonna lead. That if you affirm the great tradition, you know, he was very quick to say like, this is the road to Rome. And I think in his mind, um, Canterbury is just sort of one, one stop on that trip. Um, it becomes very hard after the fact to not have this color and tarnish all of your work before. 'cause it starts to be questions like, well, when, when did you start to hold these views? Were you writing, were you, were you publicizing Baptist theology when you no longer believed it to be the truth? Were you teaching theology students that this is what the Bible teaches when you no longer thought that to be true? Um. Were you secretly attending Anglican services and even teaching and, and helping deliver the service when you were, you know, still outwardly affirming a Baptist faith statement. And the reason I, I'll point out one other thing, 'cause I don't want this to be entirely about Matthew Barrett, but there's a big, uh, hub glue going on in the PCA right now. Um, a guy named Michael Foster, who some of our audience will probably be familiar with, um, he and I have had our desktops in the past, but I think he and I have come to a little bit of a, of a uneasy truce on certain things. He, uh, went to work compiling a, a list and there's some problems with the data, like it's, it's not clean data, so take it for what it's worth. But he compiled a list of. Every publicly available church website in the PCA. So something like 1800 websites or something like that. Huge numbers. And he went and looked at all of the staff and leadership directories, and he cataloged all the churches that had some sort of office or some sort of position that appeared to have a, a woman leading in a way that the Bible restricts. And that more importantly, and starting to say it this way, but more importantly, that the PCA itself restricts. So we're not talking about him going to random church websites and making assessments of their polity. We're talking about a, a denomination that has stated standards for who can bear office and it's not women. Um. So he compiled this and people in the PCA are coming out of the woodwork to basically defend the practice of having shepherdess and deacons. There was one that he cataloged where, um, the website actually said, uh, that was the pastor's wife and the title was Pastor of Women. Um, and then as soon as it became public that this was the case, they very quickly went in and changed the title to Shepherd of Women or Shepherdess of Women or something like that. So it's, it's really the same phenomena, not commenting, you know, I think we've been clear where we stand on the ordination of female officers and things like that, but not that all that withstanding, um, when you are going to be a part of a body that has a stated perspective on something and then just decide not to follow it, the right thing to do the, the upstanding morally. Uh, in full of integrity move would be to simply go to another denomination where your views align more closely. PCA churches, it's not super easy, but it's not impossible to leave the PCA as an entire congregation and then go somewhere like the EPC, which is the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, which still on the spectrum of things is still relatively conservative, but is in general is in favor of, uh, female officers, elders, and diegans. So I, I think, you know, and you see this with podcasters, there was the big, there was a big fu and Les became a Presbyterian, and then when Tanner became a Presbyterian on the pub, I think it is, um, incumbent on people who do any form of public theology and that that would include me and Jesse when our views change. There comes a point where we need to disclose that, be honest about it, um, and not try to pretend that we continue to hold a view that we don't be just because it's convenient or because it might be super inconvenient to make a change. I don't even want to pretend to imagine the pressures, uh, that someone like Matthew Barrett would face. I mean, you're talking about losing your entire livelihood. I, I understand that from an intellectual perspective, how difficult that must be, but in some ways, like that kind of comes with the territory. Same thing with a pastor. You have a Baptist pastor or a Presbyterian pastor. It can go both ways, I think. I'm more familiar with Baptist becoming Presbyterians. I don't, I don't see as many going the other direction. But you have a, a Baptist pastor who comes to pay to Baptist convictions and then continues to minister in their church for, I've, I've seen cases where they continue to minister for years, um, because they don't, they don't have the ability to now just go get a job in a Presbyterian context because there's all sorts of, um, training and certification and ordination process that needs to happen. Um, so they just continue ministering where they are, even though they no longer believe the church's state of, you know, state of faith statement. So that's a lot to say. Like, let your yes be yes and your no be no, and when we really all boil it down. So I think that's enough of that. It, it just sort of got in my craw this week and I couldn't really stop thinking about it. 'cause it's been very frustrating. And now there are stories coming out of. Doctoral students that, um, that Barrett was teaching who have now also become Anglican. Um, so, you know, there starts to be questions of like, was he actively pros? I mean, this is like Jacob Arminius did this stuff and, and like the reform tradition would look down on it, where he was in secret in like sort of small group private settings. He was teaching convictions very different than the uni. I'm talking about Arminius now. Not necessarily Barrett. He was teaching convictions very different than the, the stated theology of the university he taught for, and then in public he was sort of towing the line. You have to ask the question and it is just a question. There's been no confirmation that I'm aware of, but you have to ask the question if that was what was going on with Barrett, was he teaching Baptist theology publicly and then meeting with, with PhD students privately and, and sort of convincing them of Anglican theology. I don't know. I'm not speculating on that, but I think it, the situation definitely right, brings that question to mind. It forces us to ask it. Um, and had he. Been transparent about his theological shifts sooner than that may not be a, a question we have to ask. Um, the situation may not be all that different, but we wouldn't have to ask the question. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, disclosure is important in lots of places in life and we shouldn't think that theological dis disclosure, especially like you're saying among our teachers, among our pastors, it is a critical thing. It's helpful for people to know when perspectives have changed, especially when they're looking to their leaders who are exhibiting trust and care over their discipleship or their education to express that difference. If there's been a mark, change it. It's worth it. Disclose, I'm guessing you don't have to over disclose, but that we're talking about a critical, we're talking about like subversive anglicanism, allegedly. Yeah. Then. It would be more than helpful to know that that is now shaping not just perspective, but of course like major doctrine, major understanding. Yeah. And then of course by necessary conviction and extension, everything that's being promulgated or proclamation in the public sphere from that person is likely now been permeated by that. And we'd expect so. Right. If convictions change, and especially like you're talking about, we're just talking about moving from, especially among like Bible believing traditions, just raise the hand and say loved ones, uh, this is my firm conviction now. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I think if someone walks up to you and says, do you think that we should baptize babies? And you're like, yeah, I think so. Then you probably shouldn't be teaching at a Baptist seminary anymore. Like, seems like a reasonable standard. And that seems to be what happened, at least for some period of time. Um, you know, and, and it, that's not to say like, I think, I think there are instances where the church, a given church or um, or a university or seminary or, or whatever the situation might be, can be gracious and recognize like, yeah, people's perspectives change and maybe we can find a way for you to continue to finish out the semester or, you know, we can bridge you for a little while until you can find a new, a new job. Um, you know, we'll, we'll only have you teach certain courses or we'll have a guest lecturer come in when you have to cover this subject that is at variance and like, we'll make sure we're all clear about it, but it doesn't seem like any of that happened. And that's, um, that's no bueno. So anyway, Jesse. What are you affirming and or denying Tonight? [00:13:43] Music Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm just gonna go with something brief. I suppose this is an affirmation of me. I'm saying that like somewhat tongue in cheek, but maybe it's, wait, I'll rephrase. It's because this will be more humble. I'm affirming getting it right, even more than I thought. So I'm just gonna come back to the well and dip it into something that I mentioned on the last episode. So the keen listener, the up-to-date listener might remember. And if you're not up to date, uh, just let this be fresh for you. It'll, and I, it's gonna be correct because now I have posts, you know, I'm on the other side of it. I've clear hindsight. I am affirming with the album Keep It Quiet by Gray Haven, which I affirmed last week, but it came out on the same day that the episode released. And since you and I don't really like record in real time and release it like exactly as it's happening, I only did that with some, a little bit of reservation because I only heard they only released three songs in the album. And I thought I was overwhelmed that they were, they were so good that I was ready to jump in and loved ones. Oh, it, it turns out. I was so correct and it was, it's even better than I thought. So go check it out. It's Grey, GRE, YH, and they are, this is the warning, just because I have to give it out there and then I'll balance it with something else for something for everybody here today. So, gr Haven is music that's post hardcore and metal core. You're getting two cores for the price of one, if that is your jam. It has strong maleic sensibilities. It's very emotional, it's very experimental. But this new album, which is called, um, again, keep It Quiet, is like just a work of arts. It real like the guitar work is intricate haunting, lovely, and it's bold, like very intentional in its structure and very el loose in its construction. It's got hook driven melodies and it's got both heart and soft. It really is truly a work of art. So if you're trying to, to put it in your minds, like what other bands are like this? I would compare them to bands like, every Time I Die, Norma Jean, let Live Hail the Sun. If you just heard those as combinations of words that don't mean anything to you, that's also okay. No worries. But if you're looking for something different, if you're looking for something that's maybe gonna challenge your ear a little bit, but is like orchestral and has all of these metal core post hardcore, melodic, textured movements, there's no wasted notes in this album. It's really tremendous. If that's not your thing. I get, that's not everybody's thing. Here's something else I think would be equally challenging to the ear in a different way. And that is, I'm going back to one other album to balance things out here, and that's an album that was released in 2019 by Mark Barlow, who I think is like just. So underrated. For some reason, like people have slept on Mike Barlow. I have no idea why he put together an album with Isla Vista Worship called Soul Hymns, and it's like a distinct soul and r and b album of praise with like these really lovely like falsetto, harmonies. It's got these minimalistic instrumentation, warm keys, groove oriented percussion, like again, like these false soul driven melodies. It's contemplative. It's got a groove to it. This is also equally a beautiful album for a totally different reason. So I think I've given two very book-ended, very different affirmations, but I think there's something for everybody. So my challenge to your loved ones is you gotta pick one or the other. Actually, you could do both, but either go to Gray Havens, keep it quiet, or go to Mike Bellow's Soul hymns. I do not think you will be disappointed. There's something for everybody on this one. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, it was funny because as you were saying the names of those bands, I literally was thinking like Jesse could be speaking Swahili and I wouldn't know the difference. And then you, you, you know me well, yeah. Uh, I haven't listened to Gray Haven. Uh, I probably will give it a couple minutes 'cause that's how it usually goes with songs that meet that description. Uh, I can always tell that the music that Jesse recommends is good from a technical perspective, but I never really, I never really vibe with it. So that's okay. But I mean, lots of people who listen to our show do so check that out. If, if you ever. Want a good recommendation for music. Jesse is the pers so much so that he can recommend amazing music before it's even available and be a hundred percent correct, apparently. That's right. So Jesse Schwamb: affirm with me everybody, because turns out I was right. Uh, it was easy to be correct when of course I had all of that fair sightedness by being able to listen to those. Yeah, those couple of songs, it, this is a kind of album. Both of these, both of these albums. When I heard them, I reacted audibly out loud. There are parts of both of 'em where I actually said, oh wow. Or yeah, like there's just good stuff in there. And the older you get, if you're a music fan, even if you're not, if you don't listen to a lot of music, you know when that hook gets you. You know when that turn of melody or phrase really like hits you just, right. Everybody has that. Where the beat drops in a way. You're just like, yes, gimme, you make a face like you get into it. I definitely had that experience with both of these albums and because. I've listened to a lot of music because I love listening to music. It's increasingly rare where I get surprised where, you know, like sometimes stuff is just like popular music is popular for a reason and it's good because it's popular and it follows generally some kind of like well established roots. But with these albums, it's always so nice when somebody does something that is totally unexpected. And in these, I heard things that I did not expect at all. And it's so good to be surprised in a way that's like, why have I never heard that before? That is amazing. And both of these bands did it for me, so I know I'm like really hyping them up, but they're worth it. They're, they're totally worth it. Good music is always worth it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I think that is a good recommendation. I will check those out because, you know, you're a good brother. I usually do, and I trust your judgment even though it, you'll like the second one. Yes. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: You'll like the second one. Second one is like, just filled with praise and worship. And like, if, if you're trying to think, like say, here's how I'd couch the proper atmosphere for Mark Barlow's soul hymns you're having, you know, it's, it's a cold and chilly. A tal evening, the wind is blowing outside. You can hear the crisp leaves moving around on the pavement and the sun has gone down. The kids are in bed, the dinner dishes are piled up in the sink. But you think to yourselves, not tonight. I don't think so, and you just want that toneage to put on. You want that music as you dim the lights and you sit there to just hang out with each other and take a breath. You don't just want some kind of nice r and b moving music. You don't want just relaxing vibes. You want worshipful spirit filled vibes that propel your conversation and your intimacy, not just into the marital realm, but into worship and harmony with the triune God. If you're looking for that album, because that situation is before you, then sol hymns is the music you're looking for. Tony Arsenal: See, I'm gonna get the, I'm gonna get the recommendations backwards and I'm gonna sit down with my wife with a nice like evening cup of decaf tea and I'm gonna turn the music on. Yes, it's gonna be like, yes. That was me screaming into the microphone. That was not good for my voice. Well, the good news is it's gonna, it's gonna wake the kids up. That's, I'm gonna sleep on the couch. That's, it's gonna be bad. That's, Jesse Schwamb: honestly, that's also a good evening. It's just a different kind of evening. It's true. So it's just keep it separated again, uh, by way of your denial slash affirmation. Tony disclosure, I'm just giving you proper disclosure. Everybody know your music KYM, so that way when you have the setting that you want, you can match it with the music that you need. So it's true. Speaking of things that are always worth it. [00:21:30] Parable of the Weeds Jesse Schwamb: I think the Bible's gotta be one of those things. Tony Arsenal: It's true. Jesse Schwamb: And this is like the loosest of all segues because it's like the Sunday school segue into any topic that involves the scriptures. We're gonna be in Matthew 13, and how about we do this? So this is one of these parables and in my lovely ESV translation of the scriptures, the, we're just gonna go with the heading, which says the parable of the weeds. You may have something different and I wanna speak to that just briefly, but how do we do this, Tony? I'll hit us up with the parable and then it just so happens that this is one of the parables in the scripture that comes with an interpretation from our savior. It's true. How about you hit us up with the interpretation, which is in the same chapter if you're tracking with us, it's just a couple verses way. Does that sound good? Tony Arsenal: Let's do it. Jesse Schwamb: Okay. Here is the parable of the weeds. Jesus puts another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sewed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sewed weeds among the weeds and went away. So when the plants came up and bork rain, then the weeds also appeared, and the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds? He said to them, an enemy has done this. So the servant said to him, then, do you want us to go and gather them? Then he said, no. Lest in gathering the weeds, you root up the wheat along with them, but let them grow together until the harvest and at harvest time, I will tell the reapers, gather the weeds first, and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn. Tony Arsenal: Alright, so then jumping down. To verse 36. We're still in Matthew 13, he says, then he left the crowds and went into the house and his disciples came to him saying, explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field. He answered, the one who sows the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angel. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age, the son of man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom, all that, all causes of sin in all lawbreakers and throw them into the fiery furnace. It is that in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. He who has ears let him hear. Jesse Schwamb: So let me start with just like a little bit of language here, which I've always loved in this passage because where else in like the contemporary context, do you get the word tear? Yeah. Aside if you're like using a scale, and that's a totally different definition. I like this. I like the word tear. It force, it forces to understand that what's common to our ear, why that's being used, it often is translated weed. Here's just like my, my little like linguistic addition to the front end of our discussion and is the reason I like it is because here does have a specific definition. If like you were to look this up in almost any dictionary, what you're gonna find is it's like a particular type of weed. It's actually like an injurious weed that is indistinguishable in its infant form from the outgrowing of green. So I like that because of course that is exactly why. Then there's all this explanation of why then to not touch anything in the beginning because one, it causes damage to it looks like everybody else. I just thought I'd put that out there as we begin our discussion. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah. You know, I, um, I am a homeowner and I don't own the land that I'm on, but I'm responsible for the land that I'm on. And we have this really gnarly weed problem. There's this, uh, sort of floor growing, uh, carpeting weed called, uh, I think it's called like a carpeting knob, head weed or something like that. Some really descriptive thing. And I went out there the other day and there's really nothing you can do about this other than to rip it up. But I went out there the other day to start to pull some of it up and it totally wrecks the yard. Like it totally pulls up the grass, it destroys the sod. And when you're done, this is why it's kind of nice that I don't have, I'm not responsible for the land as I'm not gonna have to pay to resod the land. But when you're done pulling up this weed, you have to resod the whole place. You have to regrow all the grass because it, first, it takes over for the grass, and then when you rip it up, it rips the roots of the grass up as well. And so this parable, um, on one level is immediately obvious, like what the problem is, right? The situation is such. That the good, uh, the good sower, right? He's a good sower. He knows what he's doing. He understands that simply ripping up the weeds. Even if you could distinguish them right, there's this element that like at an early stage, they would be very difficult, if not impossible to distinguish from, uh, from wheat. Even if you could distinguish them, you still wouldn't be able to pull up the weeds and not do damage to the grain. And so we, we have this sort of like, um, conflict if you wanna follow like literary standards, right? We have this conflict and as we come to sort of the climax of this, of this plot is when all of a sudden we see that, that the problem needs a resolution and there is a resolution, but it's not necessarily what we would think it would be. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's what I find shocking. It is like a massive statement of reality that is that like equal points or equal times totally sensible. And other times we would think, well why surely not in the church Lord, like of all the places, like aren't we talking about a kind of purity of your people, the very people that you're assembling together, the chief of which is Christ and the apostles being the building stones and Christ of course being the cornerstone. And I, I think that's what I find and I wonder the people hearing this, if they thought like, well, surely Lord, that not be the case like you are bringing in and ushering in this new kingdom. Isn't this new kingdom gonna be one of absolute purity? And, and what I think he's striking at, which I do find a little bit wild, is that Jesus essentially saying, at least to my ear, anything we try to do, even like the purest preaching of the gospel, is not gonna prevent this in every age of the church. The same state of the things that's existed in that is in the time of the early fathers. In the first century, and the church as it stands right now in the land and the time of the reformers, and of course with the best ministers at this hour right now and on your next Lord's day, and everyone after that, there is always and ever will be a visible church or a religious assembly in which the members are not all wheat. Yeah. And then I like what you're saying. It's this idea that. There's a great harm that's gonna come about if you try to lift them up because you cannot tell. So, and this is what's hard, I think this does influence like how we interact with people online. Certainly how we interact with people in our own congregations, but we are going to have no clear convicted proofs. We might only have like probable symptoms if we're really trying to judge and weigh out to discern the weeds from the weeds, which at most can only give us some kind of conjectural knowledge of another state. And that is gonna sometimes preemptively judge cause us to judge others in a way that basically there's a warning against here. It, it's, it's not the right time. And ba I think mainly from the outside where I find like this parable coming together, if there's like maybe a weird Venn diagram of the way Christians read this and the way unbelievers hear this, the overlap between them is for me, often this idea of like hypocrisy and you know. When people tell me that the church is full of hypocrites, either like Christian or non-Christian, but typically that's a, a, you know, statement that comes from the non-Christian tongue. When people say that the church is full of hypocrites, I do with a little bit of snark, say it's definitely not full of hypocrites. There are always room for more in the church and, and there's like a distinction of course between the fact that there is hypocrisy in the Christian or whether the Christian is in fact or that person is a hypocrite. So like when I look through the scriptures, we see like Pharaoh confessing, we see Herod practicing, we see Judas preaching Christ Alexander venturing his life for Paul. Yeah, we see David condemning in another, what he himself practiced and like hezeki glorifying and riches Peter. Doing all kinds of peter stuff that he does, and even all the disciples forsaken Christ, an hour of trouble and danger. So all that to say, it goes back to this like lack of clear, convicted proofs that I think Jesus is bringing forward here, but only probable symptoms. And I'm still processing, of course, like the practicality of what you're saying, Tony, that in some ways it seems like abundantly clear and sensible that you should, you're, you're gonna have a problem distinguishing. But our human nature wants to go toward distinguishing and then toward uprooting sometimes. And the warning here is do not uproot at the improper time. And in fact, it's not even yours to uproot because God will send in the laborers to do that at the time of, of harvest. And so there will be weeds found among the wheat. It's just like full stop statement. And at the same time it's warning, do not go after them now. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm sure this, um, I, I'm sure this will spill over into a second conversation, but we, I think we have to talk a little bit about the interpretation here before we, before we even like talk more about the parable itself, because if you're not careful, um, and, and. I need to do a little bit more study on this, but it, it's interesting because Matthew almost seems to want you to sort of blend these parables together a little bit. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Tony Arsenal: Right. These, these, there's three, um, there's three, maybe four if you count the parable of the treasure in the field. But there's three agricultural parables that have to do with sowing seed of one, of, one way or another. And in each one the seed is something different. And I, it almost seems to me. And then on top of that, the parables are like interwoven within each other. So like right smack in the middle of this, we have the parable. Uh, is given. Then the next parable of the mustard seed, which we're gonna talk about in a future episode, is given, and then the explanation of this parable of the tears is given. Um, and so we have to talk a little bit about it and sort of establish what the seed is, because we just spent three weeks talking about the seed in the par of the sower. Um, or the parable of the, of the soils. And in that parable, the seed was the word of God in this parable. And this is where I think sometimes, um, and again, this is like the doctrine of election in parable form, right? Yes. I think sometimes we read this and we, we misstep because the seed is not, uh, is not the word of God in this. The seed is the believers. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Tony Arsenal: Right. So the good seed is sewn into, uh, into the field, which, you know, I think maybe there'll be some, we, we can save this for, for next week. But a little sneak peek is, it's not always clear exactly what the field is. Right. And I think we often, we often talk about the field as though it's the church that doesn't necessarily align a hundred percent with how Christ explains the parable. So we'll have to, we'll have to talk through that a little bit. I affirm that it is the church in, in a, a broad sense. Um, but, but the, the way that Christ explains it slightly different, but the, the seed is sewn into the world. The sons of the kingdom of heaven are sowed into the, into the world. And then the seed of the enemy, the bad seed, is the sons of the devil that's also sewn into the world. And so these two seeds grow up next to each other. If we think about the seed here as though it's the word of God, rather than the, the actual believers and unbelievers that elect in the ate, we're gonna make some missteps on how we understand this because we're not talking about, um, the, the seed being, you know, doctrine being sewn into the world. And some of it grows up good and some of it grows up bad or good doctrine and bad doctrine. We're talking about the believers themselves. Sorry, Jesse is mocking my rapid attempt to mute before I cough, which I, I did. That was pretty good. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that was, that was pretty good. Listen, this is real. Podcasting is how it goes. Yeah, I'm with you. Thank you for pulling out that distinction. 'cause it is critical. We, we have some overlap of course, with Jesus being really ascribed as the farmer, the son of man, right. He's sowing this good seed, but not the word. It's believers or the sons of the kingdom. And it is into his field, which is the world. Part of that world of course, is necessarily the church, right? But while everybody's sleeping, this enemy, the devil, he comes, he sows weeds or unbelievers, the sons of the evil one among this weed, they grow, go up together. And of course, like if I were servants in this household, I'd ask the same thing, which was like, should we get the gloves out? Yeah. Just pull those bad boys out. Like and, and so again, that's why I find it very so somewhat shocking that. It's not just, you could see like Jesus saying something like, don't worry about it now because listen, at the end of all time when the harvest comes, uh, I'm gonna take care of it. Like it's just not worth it to go out now. Right. That's not entirely The reason he gives, the reason is lest they uproot the wheat by mistake. So this is showing that the servants who are coming before Jesus in the parable, in this teaching here to really volitionally and with great fidelity and good obedience to him to want to please him to do his will. He there, he's basically saying, you are not qualified to undertake this kind of horticulture because you're just not either skilled enough or discerning enough to be able to do it right. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um. Maybe just a word of meth methodology too. Um, this parable also flies in the face of all of the, like, parables are not allegories, kind of kind of people. Um, and this is, we talked about this in our introductory episode. You have to take each parable for what it's worth, this parable very much is explained like a traditional allegory, right? Right. [00:35:39] Understanding the Parable's Symbols Tony Arsenal: It's got, it's got several different elements and Christ goes through and the first thing he does is tell you what each element represents, right? The sower is the son of man, the field is the word. The good seed is the sons of the kingdom of the weed. It's like, he's like clicking down all of the symbols and then he explains how all of it works together and like a good, all like a good allegory. Once you understand what each element and each symbol is, the rest of it actually is very self-explanatory, right? When you understand who's what in the parable. The outcome and the sort of the punchline writes itself as it were. And I think this is one of those parables that we would do. [00:36:18] Challenging Our Sensibilities Tony Arsenal: I think we would do well to sort of let marinate a little bit because it does challenge a lot of our sensibilities of what, um, what is real in the world, what is real in terms of our interaction with the world, right? What's real in terms of the role of unbelievers in the life of a Christian, um, whether we can identify who is or isn't an unbeliever. Um, I think we, you know, I, I'm not one of those people that's like, we should assume everyone's a Christian. And I'm certainly not one of those people who's like, we should assume nobody is a Christian. But I think there are a lot of times where we have figures either in public or people in our lives. Like personal acquaintances that have some sort of outward appearance. And, and that's like the key here that that distinction between weeds is a, is not a great translation as you said. Right. Because right. That distinction between wheat and weeds, to go to my analogy, like it's very clear what is grass and what is this like carpeting, knob weed. Like there's no, there's no doubt in my mind, which is the weed and which is the grass. Um, that's not what we're talking about here. And so it does, it does say here, I mean, it implies here that it's not going to be easy to distinguish the difference between exactly. The, a son of the kingdom and a son of the evil one. And I think that's a, that's a. A theological pill that is very difficult to swallow. Yes. [00:37:43] Personal Reflections on Identifying Christians Tony Arsenal: Because a lot of us, um, and this goes back to like what I, what we were saying in the last, the last parable, A lot of us were reared in our Christian faith on sort of this idea that like, you can check your fruit or you can check other people's fruits and you can determine, you can easily identify who's a Christian and who's not. I remember when I was in high school, you know, I got, I was converted when, when I was 15 and, um, I got to high school and it felt very easy to me to be able to identify the people who were play acting Christianity and the people who were real Christians. That felt like the most natural thing in the world to me. Um, it, it's an interesting story, but one of the people that I was absolutely sure was not a Christian. That he was just doing kinda civic Christianity. He was in confirmation 'cause his parents wanted him to. Um, and I had good reason to believe that at the time he was very worldly. He, he, um, did not seem to be serious about his faith at all. There was good reason to make the assessment that I did. And then I ran into him on Facebook like 15 years later and he's a pastor at the Lutheran Church and he's, you know, he loves the Lord Jesus Christ. And he would not explain it as though he had a later conversion story. It's not as though he would say like, well yeah, in high school I pretended to be a Christian. And then, you know, I got through college and uh, I really became like I got converted. He would, would grow this, or he would explain this as slow, steady growth from an immature state that knew the facts of the gospel and in a certain sense trusted that Jesus was his savior and didn't fully understand the ramifications of that. I mean, who did at 15 years old? Mm-hmm. Um. And, and that it was a slow, steady growth to the place that he's in now. [00:39:21] The Difficulty of Distinguishing Believers Tony Arsenal: So I, I think we should take seriously, and maybe this is the takeaway for this week at least, and we can, we can talk about it more, is we should take seriously the fact that the Sons of the Kingdom and the Sons of the evil one in this parable are not only inseparable without doing damage, but in many ways they are not easily distinguishable. Jesse Schwamb: Right. On. Tony Arsenal: Um, and that, that's a baked into the parable. And I think we do spend a fair amount of time and I, I'll. I'll throw myself on on this. You know, this, we, I'm not just saying we, um, we as a genuine statement, like I have participated in this. I'm sure that I still do participate in this sometimes intentionally. Other times, uh, subconsciously we spend a fair amount of time probably in our Christian lives trying to figure out who is a Christian who's not. And it's not as though that is entirely illegitimate, right? The, the, as much as we kind of poke at the, the, um, workers in this who sort of are kind of chumps, right? They're sort of like the idiots in this. They, they don't seem to know how this happened. They propose a course of action that then the master's like, no, no, that's not, that's not gonna work. They can tell the difference, right? They can see that some are weeds and some are are weeds, and they're asking, well, what do we do about it? But at the same time he is saying like, you're not really competent to tell the difference, Jesse Schwamb: right? On Tony Arsenal: a good, uh, a good. Competent farmer could probably go out and take all the weeds out. Just like a really good, I dunno, landscape technician, I'm not sure what you would call it. I'm sure someone could come into my yard and if I paid them enough money they could probably fix this knobby grass, weed, whatever it is. Um, infestation. They could probably fix it without damaging the lawn. Like there are probably people that could do it. I am not that competent person and the workers in this are not that competent person. And I would say by and large in our Christian life, we are not that competent person to be able to identify who is and who isn't, um, a Christian who is or isn't a son of the kingdom versus a son of the devil. Jesse Schwamb: And there's sometimes like we just get history reprised, or it's like, again, the same thing microwaved over and served to you three or four times as leftovers. So it's also gonna remember like any as extension that like any attempt to like purify the church perfectly, and this has happened like donatism in the fourth century I think, or even like now, certain sectarian movements are completely misguided. Yeah. And Jesus already puts that out ahead of us here. It's almost like, do not worry what God is doing because God again is, is doing all the verbs. So here's a question I think we should discuss as we, we move toward like the top of the hour. And I think this is interesting. I don't know if you'll think it's interesting. I, I kind of have an answer, but I, I'll post it here first. [00:42:01] Visible vs. Invisible Church Jesse Schwamb: So the setup like you've just given us is two things. One, we got the visible church, we talk about the visible church. I think a lot across our conversations. Yeah. And we might summarize it, saying it's like the community of all who profess faith, maybe even the community of all who are baptized. Right. Possibly. Yeah. And it's going to include then necessarily as Jesus describes it here, true and false believers. So that's one group. Then we've got this invisible church, which as you said is the elect. Those who are known perfectly to God. So the good seed is those elect true believers. The weeds, then the weeds to me, or the tears, even better, they sound a lot like that. Second and third soils that we talked about previously to some, to some degree. I'm not, I'm not gonna lump them all in because we talked about receiving the word and it taking root, all that stuff, but to some degree, and also probably like a soil one. But here's, here's the way I would define them up and against or in contradistinction to the elector believers. They're the reprobate. They're false professors or they're children of the evil one. Now here's the question, Doni, Alex, I, I think this is very interesting. I'm trying to build this up for like more dramatic effect. 'cause now I'm worried it's not that good. The question is, I'm going to presume that this good seed, the elect, true to believers, the confidence of perseverance of the saints, the justification in sanctification of God's children is in fact though we at some points have our own doubts, it is made fully aware and known to the good seed. That is, we should have, as you and I have talked about before, the confidence that God has in fact saved his elect. So the question that on the other side is for the ta, do the tears always know that they are the tears? Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, um, I've said this before and I, I mean it, and I think it takes probably more. More discussion than we have time for tonight. And and that's fine because we can do as many episodes on this as we want to. 'cause this is our show and you can't stop us actually. Jesse Schwamb: Correct. [00:43:56] Assurance of Faith and False Assurance Tony Arsenal: Um, I've said before that assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian. Jesse Schwamb: Amen. Tony Arsenal: Right. So I, I am not one to say that the technical terminology is that assurance is not of the essence of faith. Um, I think we have to be really careful when we say that it's not, but we have to be equally careful when we say that it is. Because if we say that assurance is of the essence of faith, then what that means is someone who doesn't have assurance, doesn't have faith. Um, the reason I say that we can say that is because there's a sense that that's true, right? If you don't believe you're saved, then you don't believe you're saved and you don't trust that you're saved. But that doesn't mean that you always have full awareness of that confidence. And, you know, I think, um, I think. I think you're, you're right that, um, it may not always be, let me put it this way. I, I think that we have to consider the entire life of a Christian when we're, when we're making that analysis. And in a certain sense, like, I'm not even sure we should be making that analysis. That's kind of the point of the, the, um, the parable here, or at least one of the points. But, um, when that analysis is made, we'll, we'll channel a little bit of RC sprawl. It's not as funny when he's actually, uh, gone. I don't really mean channel RC sprawl. We will, uh, speak in the tradition of RC sprawl, um, in the final analysis, whatever that means. Whenever that is. You have to consider the whole life of a Christian, the whole life of a believer. And so there may be times in the life of a believer where they don't possess that full assurance of faith or that that full assurance is weak or that it seems to be absent. But when we look at the entire life of a believer, um, is it a life that overall is marked by a confident trust, that they are in fact children of God? Um, that a confident, uh, a confident embracing of what the spirit testifies to their spirit, to, to borrow language from Romans, I think in, in the life of a true elect Christian, um, that with the perseverance of the saints, uh, with the persistence of the saints and the preservation of the saints, um, I think that yes, those who are finally saved, those who are saved unto salvation, if you wanna phrase it that way. They finish the race, they claim the prize. Um, that assurance will be their possession in their life as a Christian. Jesse Schwamb: Right on. Tony Arsenal: All of that to say, I think there are, are, there's a good case to be made for the fact that there is also people who have false assurance, right? And this is where it takes a lot more, you know, finagling and jockeying and theological explanation of how can we know we have true assurance versus false assurance. You know, it's kinda like that question, like, does an insane person know they're insane? Well, does a false, does someone with false assurance know that their assurance is false? I don't think, I don't think so. Otherwise, it wouldn't be false assurance. Um, if they knew it wasn't real assurance, then they wouldn't have any kind of assurance. So I, I think I agree with you at least where, where I think you're going is that we do have to, we do have to make some judgements. We have to look at our own life, right? Um, there is an element of fruitfulness in this parable, right? We'll talk about that. I, I think we'll get into that next week. But it's not as though this is entirely disconnected from the parable of the soils. Both of them have a very similar kind of. End point. [00:47:20] Final Judgment and Eschatology Tony Arsenal: At the end of all things, at the end of the harvest, when the end of the age comes, and the reapers, the angels are sent, what they're gathering up are fruitful Christians, right in the parable, he sends out the, it's funny be, I love my dispensational brothers and sisters, but in this parable, like the rapture is the rapture of the unbelievers, right? The angels go out and reap the unbelievers first. The, the weeds are bundled up and thrown into the fire, and then the, the fruitful wheat is gathered into the barns. Um, there is this delineation between the fruitless weeds and the fruitful wheat or the, the grain that has borne, you know, borne fruit. That is part of what the, the outward. Elements of this parable are, so we should talk about that more, of what is this trying to get at in terms of not just the difference between weeds and wheat and how that maps up to those who are in Christ versus those who are not in Christ, but also like what is this telling us about the, the end of the age eschatology. All of that's baked in here and we haven't even scratched the surface of that Jesse Schwamb: yet. Yeah, we, we, I, and we just can't, even on this episode, probably, you're right, we're gonna have to go to two so that, I guess it's like a teaser for the next one. I'm told they're with you. It's interesting. I've been thinking about that, that question a lot. And I do like what you're saying. You know, at the end here, it's almost as if Christ is saying at the time of harvest, things become more plain, more evident In the beginning. The chutes are gonna look really, really similar, and you're gonna go in and you're gonna think you're guessing properly or using your best judgment, and you're gonna get it wrong in the end when he sends out those who are harvesting. I liken this passage here in the explanation as you read to us starting in verse 36, how there's this comparison of heat and light. And so there is the heat and light of the fiery furnace into which, as you said, all of those who are the children of the enemy will be gathered up and burned. And then there's that contrast with in verse 43, then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. So there is like a reward that comes from the bearing of the fruit and that made evidence by a different type of heat and light. So I do struggle with this question because. It's easy to answer in some ways if we're defining the weeds in pirate or the tears in pirates as false professors typically. Let's say false professors of a nefarious kind, then it seems pretty plain that somebody, right, that the enemy has implanted certain people to stir up trouble with the intention to stir up trouble that is in fact their jam. Or they know that even if they're putting on heirs, that they're in fact play acting that the hypocrisy is purposeful and that it is part of like the missional efforts that they're doing to disrupt what God is doing in the world. So I might think of somebody like when we go, when we're looking in, um, Exodus, and we find that at least to some degree, all of Pharaoh's magicians can replicate everything that Moses is doing. Moses doing that by the power of God. But the magicians are so good and whatever means they're using, but they know, I presume they know they're not, they're not using Yahweh, they're not drawing their power or their influence from Yahweh. Tony Arsenal: Right? Jesse Schwamb: But it's so convincing to the people that Pharaoh is like, eh. Obviously I've seen that before because we just, we just did that here. Come back with your next trick until God flexes his mighty muscles in a really profound way, which cannot be replicated. And at some point there's a harvest that happens there. There's a separation between the two, those who are truly professing, the power that comes from God, the one true God, and those that are just replicating the cheap copy, the one that's just pure trickery and smoke and mirrors. So. That's an easy category. I'm with you. And I'm not saying that this is an invitation to bring the kind of judgment here that we've just spoken against. I'm not condoning this. What I do find interesting though is if the enemy is crafty, is it possible that they're always going to be forms of terror in the world that do feel that they have very strong conviction and belief about biblical things? Maybe there's, there's strong hobby horses or there are misguided directions here that pull us apart, that become distractions. Or maybe it's just even attitudes, uh, things that can be divisive, disruptive, derogatory that again, pull us away. For making the plain things, the main things and the main things, the plain things, which in some ways draws us back to like the whole purpose of you and I talking every week, which is we wanna get back to what the scripture teaches. We wanna follow the our Lord Jesus Christ very, very closely. I'm gonna clinging to the hymn of his rob as we walk through life so that we do not fall to those kind of false convictions. So I'm not, please hear me, loved ones. I'm not trying to call into question your faith as Tony just said. I am saying that there, this is kind of scary, just like we talked about. There are elements of the parables of the, of the soil that were equally scary. And so it's just in some ways to say, we gotta keep our heads not theological, swivel. We, we gotta be about the Lord's business, and we gotta be about understanding through prayer and study and communion with him, what it is that he wants to teach us in the purest way, knowing that the church itself and the world, of course, is never going to be entirely pure. At the same time, it is our responsibility to, as you already said, test for ourselves to understand what is that true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Because some tears are going to be maybe easy to identify and with without, you know, throwing too much shade or. I was gonna say spilling the TI don't think that works here, but I'm not young anymore, so I'm trying to use or or put on blast. Yeah. I'm looking at you Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Like it's, it's easier there to be like, yeah, right, this is wrong. It is a false profession, but we've just gotta be careful even in our own hobby, horses not deviates into ground. I think that doesn't preclude us from being children of the light and children of the kingdom, but can still be disruptive or uh, you know, just distracting. But either way, yeah. I think what's scary to me about this is exactly what you said, Tony, is, is could it be that there are people that are very sincere about the Christian faith, but are sincerely wrong? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: And what does that mean for God's elected purpose? What does that mean for our understanding of how to interact in our churches in the world? Does that make sense? Tony Arsenal: It does. And I'm not sure whether you were trying to set up the, what might be the first genuine reformed brotherhood cliffhanger, but you did. Because we're on minute 54 of a 60 minute podcast, and, uh, there's no way we're gonna get into that and not go for another 60 minutes. So, Jesse, I, I'm, I'm glad that we are taking our time. Um, I know that sometimes it's easy when you put out a schedule or you put out a sort of projected content calendar to feel like you have to stick to it. But I wanna give these parables, the time they deserve and the effort and the, uh, the, uh, study and the discussion that they deserve. And I think the questions you're posing here at the end of this episode are really, really important. And they are questions that this parable forces us to ask. Right, right. It's not as though we're just using this as a launching pad. Um. If the workers can't tell the difference between the, the seed and the, or the, the weeds and the weeds, it's reasonable to think that the weeds themselves may not be able to tell the difference. Right? The sons of the evil one, um, are probably not in this parable, are probably not the people like in the back, like doing fake devil horns, right? And like, you know, like there's, there's probably more going on that we need to unpack and, and we'll do that next week. Jesse Schwamb: I love it. So we've got some good stuff coming then, because we've gotta, this is like, do you ever remember when you were in, uh, you know, doing your undergraduate postgraduate work, you'd get like a topic or an assignment or a paper and you'd be super stoked about it and you start reaching it, be like, okay, researching it. And you'd be like, all right, I've got some good topics here. And then you get into it, you're like, oh, but I'm gonna have to talk about this. And Oh, like before I could talk, I'm gonna have to explain this. Sometimes when we get into these, as you and I have been talking, that's what it feels like. We're like, we can wrap this up. Right. And not, because we're like trying to put it into like these really fine bite sized, you know, little sound bite, discrete chunks. But I did think, yeah, we should be able to do this. And then the more you and I talked, the more I was thinking, wow, Tony Arsenal: yeah, Jesse Schwamb: there is so much for us here. Like I'm, it's just opening up into these grand vistas and we've gotta stop and do a 360 view. We gotta like take out the phone. We can't just snap a quick couple stills. We gotta take a video and do that whole panoramic thing on the iPhone and it takes time. You gotta go gently. Yeah. With the phone. You do too fast. Just like a blur. You end up with like. The same person on both sides, you know, it's, it's gonna be weird. So next episode, we're definitely gonna have to hit this stuff. We already talked about the enemy, Satan, but here's what we're gonna have to get into the harvest. We got some final judgment action. The reapers, we got angels executing God's justice. And then there's the barn. Yes. Which is probably the consummate of kingdom and new creation. So Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:56:08] Engaging with the Community Jesse Schwamb: there is, there is so much left, but because we've always scratched the surface, Tony, if people have their own thoughts on this and they might be thinking, I only wish I could tell Tony and Jesse my perspective on this. There's, there's gotta be a way. Have we made a way? Tony Arsenal: Is that even possible? I feel like there's a way. If I can just, so if you go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood, um, I'm guessing if you've made it this far into the episode, you're still listening. You're probably already in the Telegram chat. But if you're that random person who listens to the ends of podcasts, uh, even though it's just announcements, if you want to, uh, come have that conversation, we would love to have you. Uh, telegram is just a chat service. It's a, it's a pretty straightforward. Text messaging app with some extra features. Um, we have a corner of the internet that we've carved out that for the most part is, uh, kind and friendly. Um, people are are genuine and because we fill sort of a little niche and we all are sort of weirdos in the same way, it's pretty easy to spot when like a bot comes in there and we get those outta there pretty quick. Um, but we, we care about each other. We pray for each other and we talk through theology and we share funny videos of us tasting new foods that are gross and weird. Um, so come check us out, t me slash your for Brotherhood. If you don't have Telegram, that will guide you to how to install it on whatever device you'd like. Um, and it at pretty much every device that you can get apps on, you can get Telegram on. Um, if you do have Telegram, it'll jump you right into the channel and you can look around before you join and then you can join. And we would love to have you. And as long as you're gonna be contributing to the friendly part of the internet that we're trying to build, um, then you'll fit right in. Jesse Schwamb: And it's been so much great conversation. Maybe what we should do is I'm just gonna drop into part of the telegram chat and call out somebody so that way you know, that we're, we're always in the mix ourselves, but that it's just fun to see these are brothers and sisters, men and women from all over the globe. I mean, we can say that confidently because we know people often disclose where they're listening to us. But I'm just gonna call it Brother Wesley who has dropped in this week and has had some spurt, some great conversation, and he did it in a particular way because not only can you type your messages and who, I mean, it's the world in the land of text messages, who doesn't love that? But in Telegram, you can also leave a voice message, so you can actually have your own voice in the Telegram chat for people to listen to and then to respond. And like for instance, Tony and I are recording right now, and somehow I can see that Tony's typing in the telegram. He, I mean, that's how good it is. Loved ones, we're not even done yet talking. Tony's already in the telegram, so go to t me slash reform brotherhood. Over to you, Tony. Tony Arsenal: If you, you're too fast. I, uh, I had to throw a little gif up there. Nobody's gonna know what it's about until they listen to it, and that's great. I love it. So, yeah, please join us. Um, we usually have a bunch of other announcements, but we'll skip that for now. Um, we are really excited about this, uh, this series that we're on. Um, I, I mentioned it before, like, there's something so great about just getting together with someone, you, um, someone you care about and just talking about the Bible. And that's really what this podcast is about. Jesse and I have these kinds of conversations when we are in the same place, whether we're at the beach or we're at, you know, together at Christmas time, or chatting on our own private telegram chats or phone calls or whatever. And these are just conversations that are great to have and it's, it's always good to sit and chat about the Bible. So please do, um, pick up a decent commentary. Please read ahead. Uh, we're gonna be still in the parable of the TAs next week, um, for sure next week and maybe even the week after that. Who knows? Only the Lord knows. Um, Jesse, and until we get there. Oh, you, oh, I could see you're jumping in. Jesse Schwamb: No, I was just, uh, well, okay. Can I give, like, we didn't talk about this, but can I give like a preemptory like survey thing? Tony Arsenal: Yes, do it. Jesse Schwamb: You just, you just remind me of something if you made it this far. Congratulations. You're of the elect. No, I'm just kidding. Um, so you reminded me that we are together at certain times of the year. One of those times is coming up. We're coming up to like celebrating in that new year, the really the 10th anniversary, which is so incredible and hard to believe. I was thinking about that today. It feels like maybe max five years, but somehow I know a decade has gone by and we just won't stop talking. So, because you and I are gonna be together at the end of the year, we're recording this, we're sitting in October right now. I wanna give everybody some time to think about this. We always talk about when we're together doing something special, something different. And so let's throw it out to the listeners and we'll maybe keep this in front of you. What would that be? So like, I'm gonna throw all of our family, our combined family under the bus, Tony, and just volunteer them if there's enough strong interest from the listening loved ones. So what would you like to hear slash see? That could be, we could do some tastings. We've talked about that. Whether it's like neck wafers. Other kinds of candy, kimchi. We got all kinds of stuff there in the mix. Maybe you would like to hear from our resident pastor, who is my father, Tony's father-in-law, uh, the venerable Reverend, Dr. Kevin Schwam, or my mother. Or maybe you'd like to hear we, we floated this before, but that's that elusive, the reformed brotherhood wives tell all episode where we don't even, we're not even on that episode. It's true. And, and they just talk. Assuming we can convince our wives to do that, but I bet we could if there was interest. So here's your chance to jump in a telegram chats and just let us know and, and we'll keep bringing up what did I miss, Tony? What would be other things that we've said over the years that I know would be different and fun that we could really only do or do really well when we're actually sitting in the same place? Tony Arsenal: I don't know. You kinda put me on the spot. I don't know. I'll think about it a little bit. You know, the only, the only member of our family, uh, and this isn't even really true, but the only member of our family who has not made an actual appearance on the podcast is your wife. Yeah. I mean, aside from one time, one time I text messaged her and told her to walk in the room and yell Ysi and walk outta the room, and she did it. And that's the only appearance of the elusive Jessie's wife on the podcast. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's that's true. But, uh, our wives have never really done a podcast together. Right. That's Tony Arsenal: true. That's true. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I mean, well, if she's never been on this show and, and to some degree your children haven't really been on, but like they've been present and they've been on the camera a couple times 'cause they're adorable. That's Tony Arsenal: true. Yeah. Sometimes gie makes a little bit of noise when he's on. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, sometimes. I mean, he's, he's chatty. He could just carry a whole, I mean, the listener doesn't know that's, uh, you and your wife actually are corded. Like this'll be, it's secretive. Uh, but there was like a, Tony Arsenal: what was it called? Um, he, he likes to do podcasts now. He says, uh, let's record a podcast. And I go, alright, let's open the podcast. He goes, hi, everybody. This is the GIE show. Yes, that's, and he is like, let's talk about how I fell down at the library today and Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: He's good. He's natural. It's amazing. I'm not, Jesse Schwamb: I'm not gonna lie to you guys. It was better than 75% of the podcast that I listened to you, like I'm talking both production and content. And the kid was definitely natural when impressed me. Tony, and I know we're well over time, but now we're, now we're really advertising for other podcasts that'll be in the network, like the Auggie show. It's fantastic. And had me on the edge of my seat. 'cause I was like, what did happen at the library? It's interview style, which was delightful. But you said, what do you want the people, uh, your wife who was doing the first episode with him, it's wild. We can talk like this, of the Auggie show. Said like, what do you want the people to know? And he's just in the background going, podcast. Podcast. Yeah. I didn't even know he knew that word, but like the annunciation of that particular word was like so good and strong. I was like, you are your father son. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, it's because it's, well, we'll wrap this up. I promise, as soon as I say this, I'll, I'll say the thing and we'll end the show, uh, because, uh. This is like a sub affirmation. It'll have to be a real, like a formal affirmation at some point. Um, the listener knows that for a while I was recording outside. Now it's like, like 58 degrees, like 40, 55 degrees by the time I'd be recording. So, um, your mother, my mother-in-law has been gracious enough to let me use a spare room at her house. So every, every Saturday night, I have to tell I'm gonna go. I have to go. I'm not gonna be here for bedtime. And he, he always goes, well, what, where, where are you going? I say, well, I have to go record a podcast with Uncle Jesse. So now he started saying like, I wanna record a podcast with Uncle Jesse. And I'm Uncle Jesse wants to record a podcast with you kids. So it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Jesse Schwamb: I love it. So everybody be thinking of what kind of fun things we can do together. What, what you like to, like to hear. Honestly, you've heard a lot of us. And maybe there's something in particular, but it's always fun. We could actually be together and we're gonna have all this family together. And so if you want a little bit more insights or you're just tired of hearing, Tony and I talk. That's okay. We got some other people that you might be interested in hearing. It's a, it's a pretty strong network. Alright, that's enough from both of us. We hope that you will come back next week because there's so much more to say as there has been for the past decade. But until that time arrives or if the Lord comes before then let's honor everyone. Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their three-part exploration of the Parable of the Sower, focusing on the final two soils. They examine the sobering reality of the thorny soil—where cares of the world and deceitfulness of riches choke out genuine faith—before unpacking the nature of the good soil that bears fruit. The discussion weaves together important theological concepts including divine regeneration, the dangers of idolatry, and what true fruitfulness in the Christian life looks like. Rather than causing believers to anxiously question their salvation, this episode offers encouraging clarity about God's sovereign work in preparing hearts to receive His Word and produce lasting spiritual fruit. Key Takeaways The thorny soil represents the most deceptive and dangerous condition where the gospel message appears to take root but is ultimately choked out by worldly concerns and deceitfulness of riches. Fruitfulness is evidence of salvation, not its cause. The good soil bears fruit because God has prepared it, not the other way around. God's judgment can work through our idols by allowing them to choke out His Word in our lives when we prioritize them above Him. The parable isn't teaching that Christians must produce a specific quantity of fruit (30, 60, or 100-fold), but rather that genuine faith will inevitably produce some fruit. The "indicative precedes the imperative" in Christian life—our identity in Christ (good soil) produces the fruit of good works, not the reverse. Division of devotion is impossible in the Christian life—we cannot simultaneously serve God and anything else as our highest priority. Divine regeneration is necessary for anyone to hear and understand the Word savingly—the good soil is prepared by God Himself. The Danger of the Thorny Soil The thorny soil represents perhaps the most unsettling and deceptive condition in the Parable of the Sower. Unlike the path (where the seed never takes root) or the rocky soil (where it quickly withers), the seed among thorns actually establishes roots and begins to grow before being choked out. This makes it particularly frightening to contemplate—it represents those who receive the gospel with apparent sincerity and show initial growth, but ultimately prove fruitless because worldly concerns and material desires claim their ultimate devotion. As Tony points out, "This is talking about someone who is not chosen by God. He is not the elect of God. Otherwise, the riches would not have choked out the word, but it is a divine act of judgment." The thorny soil shows us how God can use our own idols—whether wealth, career, family, or even good causes—as instruments of judgment when we elevate them to a place of supreme importance in our lives. When we attempt to serve two masters, we inevitably end up serving only one, and it will not be God. The Nature of Good Soil and True Fruitfulness The good soil in the parable represents those whom God has specially prepared to receive His Word. The hosts emphasize that the soil doesn't prepare itself—this is entirely God's work of regeneration. Just as a field left to itself doesn't naturally become productive farmland, no heart naturally receives the gospel without divine intervention. Importantly, the parable doesn't teach that Christians must produce a specific quantity of fruit. Whether 30, 60, or 100-fold, the point is that genuine faith produces fruit—period. As Tony explains, "This is not a call to look at your fruit and try to figure out how much you have and if you have enough of it. The point of the parable is not, your only good soil if you produce at least 30 fold. That's overinterpreting the parable." This understanding brings freedom from anxious self-examination about whether we're "fruitful enough" and instead focuses on the fundamental reality that those whom God has regenerated will bear the fruit of Christlikeness in their lives. Memorable Quotes "I tend to think, as I've gotten older, but also just I think as I've learned more experientially about theology and about the faith... I don't think you can be serious enough about Jesus Christ." — Tony Arsenal "It's not that the fruit makes the tree good. The good tree makes the good fruit... The indicative here is the good soil. The indicative is what God has done in preparing the soil." — Tony Arsenal "The struggle is real, but it's a battle that I think is worth fighting... We've gotta do better and it's worth trying." — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb" Welcome to episode 464 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. The band is back. Tony Arsenal: It is. It's, and we're gonna be Jesse Schwamb: digging through a little dirt and sifting some soil. Today on this episode. Sounded like a threat. We're gonna be digging up some dirt. I realized once it came outta my mouth, it sounded like we were, what? What did the kids say? Like, spilling the tea. Spilling the tea. It sounded like we were gonna talk about something scandalous. Actually, maybe it is. It's a little bit scandalous. Yeah, it's not, not scandalous. Not Tony Arsenal: that kind of scandalous. Yeah. This is not that kind of podcast. Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's true. If you were tuning in thinking it was that podcast, whatever that is, it's not what you're thinking. True. It's something far better. [00:01:21] Setting the Theme: Parable of the Sower Jesse Schwamb: In fact, one of the things that it seems like we're always talking about is how the Bible makes it clear that those who make a genuine profession of faith will continue in that confession of faith. And that's really the theme on which we're about today. We're gonna be wrapping up this whole parable of the sower or the soils. We started with the first two soils, then took a quick excursion where we went back and kinda looked at some of those things happening in the first two soils all over again. And now we're gonna close it out. So we're, we're gonna get down and dirty, not in the way that you're thinking. More, more in like a, a Matthew 13 kind of way. All right. So yes, come meet us there. Roll up your sleeves if you wanna get your hands in the soil, that's where we're gonna be hanging out. But of course, before we do that, before we get into any kinda gardening, any kinda horticulture, any kinda seed throwing, let's first do a little affirming width or denying against. So, Tony, I missed you last week. It was, it's always, it's never the same. Yeah. And I was always thinking, man, I need a Tony right now. So, hit us with, are you affirming with something or are you denying against something? [00:02:24] Affirmations and Denials: Roman Catholicism Tony Arsenal: I, I'm coming in hot with a denial today. Jesse Schwamb: I, I thought you might be, I suspected, Tony Arsenal: yeah. So I was on, uh, Twitter or I suppose they call it X Now. That's never gonna stick in my mind. Uh, and I came across a little meme, and I don't know if it's because the pope. Is like crazy, like did this weird ice blessing thing or if it's just the algorithm. But I've been getting a ton of like Roman Catholic stuff on my, my Is a Feed. Okay. I don't even know what they call it anymore. Uh, has been coming across my screen on, on X and I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a disclaimer here. What I'm about to describe is a meme that has a two, a second commandment violation in it. There's no way for me to describe the meme without describing the meme. So if, if you don't want to hear it, then just fast forward, hit the little, like 15 second forward button twice on your keyboard. I, I don't feel convicted that I'm sending by describing this to you, but if you do, I understand that conviction. So feel free to skip ahead. So the meme is a picture, it's a little cartoon, it's a picture of Mary, and there's a, a, I think it's supposed to be a toddler, although it wasn't really drawn like a toddler. There's a, a small child sort of standing behind her, grabbing her sleeve going, mom, mom, mom, obviously this is supposed to be, uh, Christ. And the caption says the first Hail Mary, right? And, and so I'm denying, first of all, like I'm denying that this meme exists because of course we shouldn't be making images of Jesus and, and. It's flippant and all those things. Um, on on top of that, this is an encapsulation of what the Roman Catholic Church actually believes about the relationship between Christ and Mary is that Mary is essentially in charge of Christ even now. This is why the Roman Catholic Church would argue that you go to Mary to get salvation because she then gets it to, gets it for you from Jesus. And so the meme is blasphemous like. To the nth degree on a couple different levels. Of course, it's blasphemous in that it is perpetuating a false, uh, a false understanding of the relationship between Christ and Mary, where Christ, uh, I think, I think the most technical Roman Catholic theologians would probably say like Christ as a man, although I'm not sure how they sustain that, because they actually would, would argue that, you know, they would, they would argue that the reason that, uh, Mary can give you salvation is because she can ask it of Christ. And Christ is obligated to, um, grant her request and obey her, um, her directions and commands. Um, but then of course, like it also just reveals. Um, at least in this particular instance, it reveals that there is a certain form of reverence and a certain, certain form of regard that is typically reserved for Mary. And there was no qualms in this case of basically making Jesus look like a whiny toddler. Um, you know, again, I affirm the full humanity of Christ. Uh, toddlers are not necessarily sinning when they have a temper tantrum that it's a brain development thing. It's, it's not necessarily sinful. So I think Jesus cried as a baby. He probably had tough time dealing with emotions as a, as a toddler, just like all toddlers do. But to sort of make this into, uh, make, to make Jesus the punchline of the joke as like the whiny toddler yelling, mom, mom, mom, um, you know, and Mary's got like a wide eyes, like a frustrated mother. Uh, it, it just, everything about it rubbed me the wrong way. So I'm denying, I guess, the Roman Catholic. Veneration of Mary in like the most core sense, but just also that veneration of Mary has necessarily denigrated Christ from his proper role. That that's it. That's the denial. Jesse Schwamb: That was full, that was chock full of all kinds of good stuff. I'm with you. We've had a long tradition, I think you and I have as we've grown. I think it matured into some degree of really just coming against all kinds of representations in this way, like all kind of kitschy niche, like jokes of this kind of manner. Even if there's like seemingly well intentioned or they're just poking a little bit of fun, whether that's like the, the encapsulation of those like precious moments style figurines where Right. This is time where it's like the sacred bowing to the secular and it's, you know, or sorry, the other way around. Yeah. The secular bowing, the sacred where you have, you know, Santa Claus bowing before the manger. It's weird. Or whether you have like that t-shirt that is an image of Jesus. Goal on soccer says Jesus saves. Yeah. You know, this is way worse than that, but it's in this weird realm of wanting to like poke and have a little bit of fun and be cute about spiritual matters. Yeah, and you're right, certainly has like an entry point or a root and things like that. Sometimes, like we we're not even. I think sometimes the people putting those things out aren't even understanding themselves. But it causes like all kinds of problems with like this idea of Mary, for instance, as a emrex, which are, in some ways you're talking about this weird cooperation and, and even if it's insubordinate way with a Christ redemptive work, her free consent in baring him as a son and then the spiritual union with him and suffering on the cross. And probably many people, if there posting it be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not at all what I intended. But really it draws all of that in. It's so problematic. And so, yeah, for the person that's looking at that and then actually does some research and wants to understand what could be implied in this, you're gonna find all kinds of really horrible stuff that leads you astray. And then for those that just look at it and say, well, isn't that funny? That's also equally a problem because Yep. It's not a matter to be trifled with or to be a punchline of a joke. Some things are just not I, I'm with you. You know, we've talked about. Whether or not in that old Christmas hymn, like not a, not a sound, he makes no crying. He makes, whether that's doism or not. And we've said that so much time in cheek, but it illustrates this point that Jesus identifies with us critically and fully in our humanity, yet with without sin, he doesn't cease to be the son of God in his coming down and condescending to be like us, to be with us. That's all critically important, but the minute that we denigrate that by these, this kind of imagery or this kind of joke making is really the place where you fall really. We just fly really fire field of what the Bible teaches. It's good to have this warning. Yeah. It's good to have the, I think you're, you're calling us like the alarm bells in our mind and, and that's good. Whether it's like blatant that we see it and we can critically identify it in front of us or whether like we're just prone to make the joke or to participate it. Yeah, because we think, uh, it's, it's edgy and that's okay. It's just not. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:54] The Importance of Reverence Tony Arsenal: I tend to think, um, and I've, I've come more this direction as I've, as I've gotten older, uh, but also just I think as I've learned more experientially about theology and about the faith, um, you know, I think you come outta seminary with a head full of knowledge and not a lot of experiential religion. And as I've had more experiential religion in my life, I don't think you can be serious enough about Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's fair. And so I think anytime that you are trying to say like, well, don't take it so seriously. Like, what do you mean don't take the God of the universe so seriously? Don't take the savior of the world and the, the one who died for my sin. So seriously. I, I just think there are probably people out there that would be like, quit being such a like scrooge about this. Why can't, you just can't just take a joke. And I think if I'm gonna err on the side of either being too serious about. The one who died in my place and not risking, uh, denigrating him or reducing him to the butt of a joke or, uh, or err on the side of, you know, being funny. Like, I think I'm gonna take the safe option and just say like, God says not to blaspheme his name and not to make light of, and take vain the things that he uses to reveal himself. And certainly. Jesus is the supreme revelation of God and is God himself. That's right. So we should not ever take that lightly or vainly. So, and again, like it's funny that you say like, people who are looking at this, you bring in concepts of the trics might be like, whoa, that's not what I meant. I, I think actually the thoughtful, well, well-informed Roman Catholic, that's exactly what they meant. And that's also why, uh, we're getting to that time of year where that Mary, the constellation of Eve, um, painting is about to start circulating and everybody's about to start fighting online like that, that image of Mary looking down at Eve's belly or you know, Eve looking down at, at Mary's belly. And it's very beautiful and very touching and very emotional. Um, oh, and also like Mary is standing on a snake's head, right? Like, it, it's Roman Catholic theology baked into the, baked into the pie. Right. And you can't get it out of there. So I, I think that's important to, to remember and just in general, like we should just. There's no place for that in reformed theology. There's no really no place for that in Protestant theology. Um, I suppose you can make an argument that, um, other Protestant traditions do hold Mary in a higher regard than reformed theology does. I, I would dispute that because I think when we put her in a place that she shouldn't be, we're actually putting her in a lower regard. Um, so that's enough about that. Again, that's, that's the denial. It shouldn't surprise anybody that I'm, I'm an anti papus, uh, not an anti papist. I'm anti papus tree. I like papus. Papus tend to be nice people. There you go. Um, and, and I want them to, to know Jesus truly and fully, but uh, their theology's junk. I'm not afraid to say it. That's good. All I've got to say about that Jesse Schwamb: big swing and a miss. Yes. And I should probably say, Les, anybody think we're moving in this direction? I wanna clarify something. I think you'd agree with me on this, Tony, that we're certainly not implying, nor I think would it, we would actually believe if pressed on this, that Jesus himself didn't have a sense of humor. That's not really what we're saying here. I think this is more about the fact that Jesus deserves our, like every ounce, every modicum of respect, adoration and worship that we give him. He deserves it all and more. So it's interesting to me when you look at the span, like kinda the swath of word religions and philosophies. I, and maybe we talked about this before and I don't want to get us like on, off, off, on some kinda weird excursions. It's interesting to me how in some of those views. They hold their prophets or they hold their religious figures in higher regard, and the world respects that. I think one of the ways we see that Christianity is in fact real, that it is separate and distinct from all those things, that it is the absolute truth is that we would expect that if the first commands in particular are focused on us, honoring God, worshiping him rightly, holding him in a nce and highend lifted place, then the enemy would do everything possible to undermine that in every conceivable medium, in every conceivable way. Yeah, and that's exactly what we find with Jesus, both his name and his image. I, I just find that very interesting that why is it that cultures around the world, if you want to take someone's name in vain, it is predominantly the name of Jesus, right. And so I, I just think there's like a massive attack that, that the enemy leverages against humanity, against Christians, against culture to say denigrate Jesus. Anything that you can do to put him down in some kind of way to make him the brother joke, small or large, to use his name in a way that's opposite the way it's ought to be intended. And everywhere we fine. That's exactly what's happening. And in a way that's like, to my mind, I haven't done like a formal survey. You tell me like disproportionate to any other name, any other expression, any other like profiting or profiling like a religious leader or worldview to use in some kind of negative or like horrible way? Tony Arsenal: I, I can't think of another, I actually can't think of another example of that in, at least in the West, um, I, I, you know, people would joke around and be like, buy Odin's beard, but like that's obviously a joke. Yes. Um, it's obviously people who are trying to. Mock the mockery of Jesus like there, yes. And in, in itself, that's actually an attempt again to demonstrate how foolish they think Jesus is by comparing them to the obviously false, ridiculous idea that Odin is existing. So I, I think, yeah, I think you're right. I, I, I don't think I know of a serious actual usage of another religious figure's name that is comparable to the way that people bla him our Lord. So again, it's, you can't take Jesus seriously enough. Uh, you can never take him too seriously. And, uh, we, we should always err on the side of reverence when we're talking about God. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I love that. It's such a good reminder. You're right for all seasons, but especially the ones we're about to enter into, and I think you're right. You'll never be disappointed. I don't think I'll ever look back and say I'm, I really regret that I took as hard stance on that, like in my family, how I interact with my children and my spouse, how I use the know Jesus. I will say, and I'm taking us away again, but I, I want to point out something because you, you've brought up a conviction in my own life recently, and that is like, even we've talked about this in the episode before, but more so for me recently, like substitutionary words I use. Yeah. And, and they are like in our culture, accepted. So let me give an example just real quick, and that is like saying, you know, people might say, oh my gosh. Uh, I'll often say like, oh my word, or I'll, I'll say like, holy cow, or something like that. I've really been convicted recently that in this same vein, that the, there are words that, and representations and substitutes that just should not be made. You should just strike 'em from your language altogether. And that's increasingly my conviction. And it's, it's very much in this vein is, is let yes be yes, and let my worship be completely devoted in my mouth. Be pure in the way that I speak. So that like, 'cause even something like as simple as you think, you're, you're saying, oh my word, and you're substituting, that might sound innocent, but what is the word we're talking about? Like, we of all people should be able to say, like, what am I saying Tony Arsenal: here? Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: So it's just, there's, the struggle is, is real, but it, this is a battle that I think is worth fighting. And if people say, why don't you say certain things? Or because it's, it's, we did a whole episode where it's like, for Christians. Don't do substitutes. If you're gonna do substitute, you might as just say the thing. Yeah. 'cause people are interpreting that anyway, as you're just doing like a poor man's use. Right. Of taking the Lord's name in vain or, or some kinda derivative. And you may be very intentional about that because you don't want to, and so you're, I'm with you. Loved one, so Yeah. I'm with you in that. I just think it's, we've gotta do better and it's worth, it's worth trying, I don't know, make up your own phrase that's that's not related or. Fiddlesticks. Yeah, but see, Tony Arsenal: like this, this, and this is where we don't have to rehash it. 'cause this is where we landed on the, the episode when we talked about this is, it actually doesn't matter what phrase you're saying or if it is etymologically related to, you know, a mint oath is where you, you would be saying a, a straight out, blasphemous phrase, but you substitute, um, you substitute words in. But at the end of the day, if you're just making up a phrase so that you don't say men's oath or so that you don't actually say blasphemy, like it's still the same thing in your heart. And like it's inescapable. And I think this is the last thing I'll say because this is not the episode and it doesn't need to be the episode. Um. Uh, Marcus Aurelius in meditation says something that is, is pretty profound. But I also think something is really, uh, that's really useful for Christians in our particular flavor of theology, um, especially for like moral, ethical things, is that we should be strict on ourselves and gracious with other people. And I think, you know, I, I have the same conviction you do about men's oaths, and it's very, very difficult. And it is not just a matter of taming your tongue, it's a matter of taming your heart. And that is impossible, um, this side of glory. But there are other people who aren't gonna have the same convictions and Right. Um, and I'm not talking about like straight out sin there, there's a, there's a category of a well-intentioned sin where someone is still sinning, but they're doing it with a desire not to be sinning. And we all do those things. We all have those things in different areas. And I think when we encounter those things, I think this is one of those things where, just like you said, someone might say. Oh my goodness. Or oh my word, or, oh my gosh. They might say that thing in the attempt not to take the Lord's name in vain. Right. Meaning to say, I wanna hold God's name in reverence so I'm not gonna use it flippantly. Those are not the exact same sins. They're not the exact same thing. And I think we have to have some grace for people. 'cause we can't do any better ourselves. I agree. Like I said, even if we come up with a nonsense phrase, we're just replacing one men's oath with another that's not at etymologically connected to the original phrase. So I think that's a good reminder. Take God seriously. Um, I, Jesus, I'm sure Jesus had and has a sense of humor. Um, I'm sure he was probably a pretty funny, probably is a pretty funny, charming guy. Um, you know, but, um, but he also demonstrates in the scriptures, he had a very, he was a very serious person. Yes. Um, we're gonna see as we go through the parables, actually, there are lots of places that are pretty funny. They're, they're humorous, they're funny examples. Um, you know, so anyways, I think that's enough about that. We don't need to make this the whole episode. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:19:29] Running the Race: Physical and Spiritual Endurance Jesse Schwamb: I'll, I'll try to keep this tight since I extended us so long on that really good, uh, denial. Two quick affirmations. So I know I said quick, but I'm gonna do two, but I promise it'll be really fast. Okay, so here's the, the first one, given our schedule, now, this makes me seem like I'm clairvoyant or appreciate at least, and that is I'm going to affirm with a brand new album that will drop the same day you're hearing this episode. So you should just go to wherever, device, whatever subscription service or whatever. CD or vinyl store you get your music from. Tony Arsenal: Nobody listens to CDs anymore. Justin, Jesse Schwamb: assuming those, they're coming back, they're printing those bad boys CDs. Yes. Tony Arsenal: That's dumb. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Still, at least vinyls have some sort of like, I'm derailing this here, but at least vinyls are like tactile and like analog CDs are just, I guess like on a technical level there's, they're also analog, but still, yeah, it's like the digital, Jesse Schwamb: you know, every, everything becomes nostalgic as you get older. Right. So you can now buy CD players. Anyway, I was actually just looking at the recent, I still have a whole like thing, like a hole. Stack Tower of cd. Anyway, wherever you get your music, we're, we're just gonna go everywhere tonight. Unashamedly, wherever you get your music, go get this album. It's by Gray Haven. It's their second album or third album. I can't remember now because I'm thinking about CDs and it's called Keep It Quiet. It's gonna come out on October 10th. You're gonna want it. Here's the, the interesting thing for me is I've only heard three songs because that's all that's, that's released again, this, you couldn't do this when it was just CDs. So you get these three songs from the album. They're so good that I can repre, I can recommend this like unreservedly. So just, just go get that. The second thing ends in this kind of, I would say, crosses over somewhat to what we were just talking about in the denial. And that is, uh, this weekend in my household, for many people, I love, one thing always happens and that is there's this local running festival. Where you choose a duration of time, it's what's called an ultra event and you just basically run into your legs, fall off for the time runs out. And I'm just so proud of I, I couldn't do it this year because of some health stuff which I was disappointed about. I am so proud though of so many people I know and love who did this. One is my wife who put in 28 miles today, and then also my good friend and brother Nate. He was, he's long been after this elusive and running what's called 50 kilometers, which is a little over 31 miles and he got it today and I'm just so happy for both of them. It, it's, if you've run like around the block or I don't know, a hundred miles, it doesn't matter. Running is hard. This is why people still show up to like cheer on runners because they recognize that if it were easy, everybody would do it. It's just hard. And of course I always think back to the Apostle Paul using that particular metaphor to describe the Christian life, and I agree because we were just talking about like, Hey. Fighting sin or you know, really coming in. Participation as a Holy Spirit leads us to, with our own volition, our effort, devoting ourselves to working out our salvation as Christ works within us. To work out that salvation, that is like a long slog. People speak to me. I've heard people talk about like this victorious Christian life, and I know what they mean. Yes, in the end it's victorious, but I don't know. Sometimes it feels like it's just one battle off the next, or it's the same battle. It's a bit like running where you're literally forcing yourself to say one foot in front of the other by the power of got one foot in front of the other, and then the race ends. You put in your 50 K, you finish the 5K, you finish the one mile run, and you think to yourself. Man, there's joy in finishing, you know, and finishing well, like not giving up, keeping after doing that thing. So I'm proud of them and it's an encouragement to me about like that being the Christian life. So wherever, whatever you're running these days, loved ones, whatever, wherever you are in that race, like maybe it's the marathon and you feel like you're in mile 24 and it's all uphill and you just wanna give up, do not give up. Like lean into God, trust in God, ask for the power of the Holy Spirit again and again to fill you up so that we can all finish that race really, really strong and really, really well. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm gonna ruin your spiritual metaphor here and just say like, and. I think if you told me I had to run 30 miles, I could probably run directly to the hospital and just die. Like if you, if you got behind me with a, like a knife and said, if you run a mile, I'll stop chasing you. I don't think I could make it at this point. Yeah. So to hear that, to hear that your wife ran 30 miles or uh, or 28 miles you said, right? Yes. 28. Um, or that, that your friend ran 30 miles. That's. That's crazy. That's impressive. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I a problem. It's also maybe like an encouragement for somebody who needs it right now. Do the hard thing. Yeah, and that might be a physical thing. Maybe it's like you're studying for a test and you know you need the discipline to like really buckle down and get on schedule. Like do it loved one, like trust in God, seek his help and his support. Maybe it is like your training for some event. I have no idea. Like do the do the hard thing, like it's controlled suffering and there is like a beauty in that. There is a spirituality that forces us to realize how contingent we are and then to come before God. I'm not saying you have to go and run your own ultra marathon. That might be a little bit wild. But I do have a special respect for anybody who puts in some like crazy hard work. Honestly. You know what that is? Basically. It's also like raising children, isn't it? I mean, you know best like Yeah. Sometimes that's the marathon is you do that every. Day. And it's both physical and spiritual and emotional. Mental like, and you don't give up. You trust in God and you do not get up, give up like even when maybe you don't get up. But when you are on the ground, yeah, and you still have the parent, you're still parenting. So for what it's worth, keep doing the hide thing. Keep trusting in God for that. Tony Arsenal: It's true. [00:25:01] Diving into the Parable: The Last Two Soils Tony Arsenal: Jesse, should we talk about some soil? Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I've been waiting to get into the soil. I thought you would, you would never ask if you would just stop delaying us and turning us onto all these side, side topics. So I, I think everybody, hopefully if you were tracking with us. You know, we're hanging out in Matthew 13. I'm, I'm gonna refer you to that passage and I think what we should go over is we want to hit like these last two. And so just as like a quick refresher on like where we've been. So Jesus gives this amazing parable. He's speaking about salvation from like a God perspective, from his perspective, and he uses his farmer who's sowing seeds in his field. He's walking on the field, he's scattering the seeds and they four, they fall in four different places. The first is the hard path where the birds eat it. The second is the rocky ground where it springs up immediately because it's, the soil's nice and warm. There's probably like a bed of limestone underneath it, but because that bed is there, it's soon scorched by the sun because it can't develop any deep roots. We talked about those. Go listen to us. Super good. As far as I'm concerned, it was definitive. Let's talk about the last two, because these really are. Well, the last one essentially is, is like the punchline of the whole thing. This, this is the big reveal. It's the finale. And so we've got the penultimate seed, which is the one that falls among the thorns where again, it grows up, but then is quickly choked out by the stronger weeds. But then lastly, Jesus of course, ends with this good soil where it not only sprouts, but it bears this fruit that's 30, 60, even a hundred times its original offering, or a hundred times itself. So let's get into these last two. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So I'm just gonna read, um, starting here in verse uh, chapter 13 verse seven, just so we have the word in front of us. It says here, other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grains. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let 'em hear. And then I'm gonna skip down here. It says in verse 22, it says, as for what was sewn among thorns, this is Christ interpreting the parable to his disciples. It says, as for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word. We could probably, uh, just a little bit of commentary. We could probably, uh, translate that word hears as receives, right? This is, this is not just someone that the, the words bounce out their eardrums. This is someone who has some sort of reception of the words. All of these are someone who has some sort of reception except the very first kind it says, as for those, uh, as for what was sown among ths, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word. As it proves unfruitful, as for what was sewn on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred fold in another 60 and in another 30. So Christ interprets the parable to us. So on one level, like we, we probably don't need to talk about much, but Jesse Schwamb: end of episode. Tony Arsenal: Yep, end episode. But we got another 30 minutes to go and I'm sure that we will make good use of it. So, you know, the first two soils. The, the first soil, nothing happens, right? It, the, the seed doesn't even take root. The second soil, the seed takes root and begins to sprout, but it, it gets burned out by the sun and it never, it never, uh, actually blooms or fruits, right? Uh, the third soil, it, it takes root and it grows and it sprouts. But because of the thorns, and the thorns are the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of the world because of those things, it never bears fruit. And, and in my mind, and you can tell me if you agree with me, Jesse, like those, that's the scary one for me. Like, I think the, the, the other two, I think, um. You know, there gets to be a certain point in the Christian life where, you know, you're not the first soil, right? Because you've got, at least you, you've got at least some sort of roots. You could be relatively confident that you're not the second soil because you have some sort of staying power. Um, and then you start to think about like, well, am I the third fruit? Am I the right or am I the third seed? The soil, the, the unfruitful soil? Um, and then of course we all want to be the final fruit and or the final soil. And what I think is so interesting about this is the final soil, it's not, um, there are a lot of different ways you can understand this. You know, a hundred fold, 60 fold, 30 fold. [00:29:27] Understanding Fruitfulness in Faith Tony Arsenal: I think what's really stands out to me is like, it's not the amount of fruit that is necessarily the important part of that. And I think saying there is these different levels of fruitfulness. It. It's almost as though Christ is saying it bore some fruit and some fruit was enough. Right, right. This is not a call to like try to analyze, did I bear enough fruit? It's a call to say the one who bears fruit will persist until the end, even if it's just a little bit of fruit. It might be a little bit, it might be a lot. Um, but the one that bears fruit will persist. What do you think? Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I totally agree with you. [00:30:03] The Terrifying Reality of Spiritual Battles Jesse Schwamb: This is the terrifying one. Because there is this emphasis, first off, that the roots are settled down, that they actually go to some extent deep, like it can support a plant that is in some ways, like at least in adolescence, but it's growing up. What I find that's like the most terrifying thing about this is it's almost like this in my mind. Uh, I'm not critiquing like the perfection of this parable. I find that this language, this really dramatic verb set here is almost like better suited to like another metaphor, another environment. It's brilliant that the parable in this example of using like farming and the sowing the seed, that it actually is wide enough to encapsulate all four of these different soils. But when you get verbs like choking out, like the, the way the thing goes to my mind is like, it's almost like, Hey, you've heard and received the word. You've been trained up. You're ready to go. You made it. Into the ring, but guess what? Now you gotta fight somebody. Yeah. And they're gonna come and choke you out. Yeah. Like they're gonna knock you out. They're gonna take you out of the game. [00:31:01] The Dangers of Idolatry and Worldly Distractions Jesse Schwamb: And so this actually does, I think, go back to the very place where we started, which is that the Christian life in some way is, is a battle. And that what's being, at least propagated here is that without having a severe loyalty to the gospel, to the Lord Jesus Christ, that you will get choked out by something else, by anything else, by everything else. This is Jesus, you know, saying in, in Matthew chapter six, no one can serve two masters. And this is like so dramatic. Think about this. No one can serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or he'll be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Now, this seems to me like directly parallel here, and I think even that language, you might find Christians to say, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. Like, I can, I can do all these things. I can really have a, a, a love for like the physical things and appreciate the finer things in life and really, you know, feel okay and have some support and confidence in my bank account and still love Jesus here. Now again, I don't wanna play that too fast and loose or too finely tuned. But the point is that I think we, we have to be on guard here. And that the one who truly receives this gospel is the one who forsakes all things for the sake of Christ, for his glory, for our good. So, I'm with you because this is the terrifying one. It's, it's the one that should cause you to say, what, what camp am I actually in here? Yeah. How do I understand the severity of what Jesus is speaking about here? Because. If what he's saying is true, then distraction to like earthly matters, to lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh to money and possession and wealth, that these things can choke us out and choke out the gospel message. And we have to, I think, at least be honest in understanding that that's a possibility. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, Christ is so gracious to us to give us this interpretation, right? Mm-hmm. There, there are lots of, there are lots of parables that the Holy Spirit, either Christ never interpreted them to the people who heard them, which is certainly a possibility. Um, or I think in, in many cases probably he did and just wasn't recorded for us. But this is a, this is a clearing call. And, and as the sort of like. We've talked about how this parable is sort of like the Rosetta Stone of all the parables, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: Right. It's, it's the theology of parables and what parables are for, and what parables do in a parable is that there are some people who hear the same, they hear the same thing, they hear the same gospel. Um, in, in some ways, at least on a, a temporal, horizontal level, they appear to react and, and receive the gospel in the same way, uh, at least at first. And then they allow their allegiance and they allow their desires and their concerns to take a priority over, over God. Right. I, I'm, I'm working on some, um, some revitalation revitalization of my blogging activities, and so I've been beginning to work through like the beginning parts of the catechism. The, the Westminster larger catechism. And you know, if God is our chief end, if, if enjoying God and Glor or glorifying God and enjoying him forever is our chief end, nothing else can be our chief end. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right. Tony Arsenal: And so the second we allow something else to be our chief end or to try to even, even if we try to say like, well, money or fame or riches or my family or my job, or anything, like, that's a, that's an equally chief end. We've already lost the plot. Right. And this is, you know, this is what Christ is talking about when he says you, you know, you, you cannot serve God and money you cannot serve God. And wealth is that if you allow wealth to become your God, then you've lost the true God. Right. Plain and simple. Like that's all there is to it. [00:34:45] The Role of Divine Judgment Tony Arsenal: And so when, when Christ here says that the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke out the word and it proves unfruitful it, it's actually, um. I would say it's actually an act of divine judgment that the riches have done this to you, right? It's not that they are in themselves, uh, negative or evil or in themselves corrupted or somehow dirty or anything like that. But if you have, if you have allowed them to become. Your God, then God will use those very things to choke out the word. He will use those very things to displace the power of the gospel in your life. Uh, and this, this is, it almost feels weird to be talking in this way because we talk about how the gospel is, you know, we talk about like effectual calling and irresistible grace, and those, those all have their particular meanings. Um, but that's talking about like God's work in, in the elect. This is talking about someone who is not chosen by God. He is not the elect of God. Otherwise, the, the, the riches would not have choked out the word, but it is a divine act of judgment. It's like in Romans one where, you know, there's this list of all these, uh, sinful things that God is enumerating in Romans when Paul's enumerating in Romans one, and then it says, and he turned them over to their passions. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Tony Arsenal: Right. We tend to think of the passions primarily, you know, passions in that case's, talking about sexual passions, you know, illegitimate sexual desires and passions. Um. We think of those things as the sin itself, and it, it is, but it's also the thing that God uses to judge us for that very same sin. He allows us into this death spiral of increasing sinfulness. That in itself is what destroys us, and this is what's going on, is the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of the world, right? It's not as though caring about your family or caring about your finances, or caring about being a good neighbor or taking care of the environment, anything that you might wanna do, that's a good and noble and admirable thing, right? It's totally fine to think that recycling is a thing we should do. It's not fine to think that recycling is somehow a, a responsibility that's on par with church attendance, right? Or worshiping the Lord or serving your community. Serving your community of faith. Um. You know, praising Jesus prayer, all of the, you know, attending to the means of grace. Um, if we allow those things to supplant God as the rightful ruler of our heart, then he will use those very same things as the, the means of our condemnation and judgment. And that is what proves it unfaithful, is that it becomes. In itself, it becomes the fruit, the, the, the deceitfulness of riches becomes the fruit. It replaces the fruit itself. So again, I think this is, this is a really sober warning, but how gracious is Christ to give this to his disciples and to give this to us right up at the front of all of the teachings on parables. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think you're right about that. It's, it's an overconcern that results ultimately in idolatry. And this is just old-fashioned idolatry here. That's the warning. It's, and I think we should be clear and honest that this is always a temptation of God's people. Right. I'm with you. It's this desire to move what is a right concern into an over concern, either resulting in anxiety or then idolizing something in your life such that it becomes your source of comfort and strength. And what we have here is that the third soil never comes up to the full standard of New Testament Christianity. There's no fruit that's being brought to perfection here. And I like what you're saying. I think this supports like my theory about what it means when we say like the, the. Scripture that goes out. The message God's word never returns void here. The return that, like the, the echo that comes back is in the form here of judgment. It just merely reveals that this is our default condition apart from God. Now, the reason why I wanna be honest about this is because I think this is hard. It's hard to think about. It's hard to understand that, well, how can anybody bear fruit when this temptation to focus on other things? That is, to have this grand secret that destroys and chokes out is just a condition of being in the world and being concerned about the world and having cares of the world who doesn't have those current concerns and cares. The good news is the disciples ask that question of our Lord and Savior directly. You know when, when he's, Jesus said, listen, it's way easier for a Campbell to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for our rich men to be saved, and the disciples say what all of us should say. And what I'm grateful that they did say, and that was who then can be saved. And God, of course, Jesus gives that amazing line, which is with God, all things are possible. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about here, right? And it's inevitably leading us that with God, all things are possible. That's the bridge here that we're gonna traverse into quickly like this fourth soil. It is possible with God and apart from God, we're adventures in Romans one, we're getting this kinda judgment. But all that to say, I like where you kinda started us idolatry is. The real threat, loved ones, like it's the real, it's not just about like competing in priorities. It's not syncretism, it's not right having something in a parallel track. It's that God wants all of us in that when he is not everything, the other thing is gonna choke out the gospel. There will not be fruit. So if we think that we can somehow have divided minds, split personalities when it comes to our devotion, we're definitely fooling ourselves. And the judgment is right here in the text force. Yeah. So I think this is like, there is, like you're saying in some ways as we move through these soils. We see like kinda increasing, you know, maybe reception. You know, we might say that the third soil is, is understanding, giving a scent to this message. In their judgment they approve of it, their conscious might be affected by it, their affections are in favor of it. Maybe they even maybe acknowledge that all is right and there's a goodness and wordiness to it, but they stop short because they cannot abstain from all the things which the gospel condemns. That is like this dual mindedness in what it means to be devoted and in, in the focus of their worship, in the thing that they actually set their mind and their talents and their abilities upon in a closed handed, not open-handed way, but a closed handed way. And so in some ways might say, well, it's getting better. In a way it almost seems like it's getting worse because as you said, there is like this double judgment of saying like there was a receiving of it setting down of the root. But all of that root, that setting down, that actually growing up with the plant was to demonstrate God's great judgment in that he is should have acy over all things including, and especially our devotion to him. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:41:15] The Importance of Good Soil Tony Arsenal: And, and I think the, the last, you know, as we kind of round out the time a little bit here, I think this is such an interpretive key passage for really the rest of the New Testament. Um, I mean the whole Bible, but the New Testament especially, and, and I don't think people recognize how critical this is. So just we've already talked about, like, this ties into, um, you can talk about this in terms of like preaching methodology, right? Right. It has something to say about the fact that when Christ pictures himself, uh, or, or when Christ, um, embeds himself into the parable. And when we get to verse 24, in the next parable, we'll see that this good man who is sowing the seeds is, is Christ. He is the one who sows the seeds. Um. We pattern ourselves after him. He, he doesn't just put the seed of the word on the soil that he knows it's going to grow. Right. So there's that, this is, you know, the whole doctrine of election baked into this parable. It's also the doctrine of the, uh, the indicative preceding the imperative. Yes. Right. When we get to the good soil, it's not, it's not that. The fact that the plant, uh, fruits that makes the soil good, it's the good soil right Jesse Schwamb: on Tony Arsenal: that makes the plant fruitful. It's the good soil that brings forth the fruits, not the fruit that brings forth the good soil. And, and this is the same as when Christ, you know, and other parables will talk about it, but he, when he talks about how, um, from a good tree comes forth, good fruit, and from what, from a wicked tree comes forth wicked fruit, it's not that the, the fruit makes the tree good. The good tree makes the good fruit. And I think this is, this is a key. Thing that we need to understand is the indicative here is the good soil, right? The, the indicative is what God has done in preparing the soil. There's an implication in this text. The soil doesn't become good on its own, right? Right. A a a field left to itself is not going to be going to be able to support agricultural produce, right? If you go out into a field, you may find lots of things growing, but what you're not going to find is a plant that yields of, of, you know, a harvest of a hundred fold. You're never gonna find that. Um, you might find some wildflowers, you might find some wild strawberries. You're not gonna live off of what just naturally grows in a, a, you know, an acre of land for any sustained amount of time, you're gonna pick it clean pretty quickly. So there's an implication in this, that the part of the reason that the soil is good is because it's been prepared. Okay? Because it has been tilled, although we talked about how oftentimes they would till the ground after the soil. But there's a, there's a difference between the land that is prepared for the seed and the land that is not prepared for the seed. And all of the land, apart from the good soil, is in a sense land that is not prepared for the seed, right? The land that has thorns on it is not prepared for the seeds. The land that is shallow and has bedrock immediately under it is not prepared for the seed. And the pathway is not prepared for the seed, but the soil that is good soil that not only receives the word, right? We, we talked about how you could translate, here's the word, is receives the word. It's actually like a reception of the word and understands it. Right in the New Testament, it is consistently articulated that those who are able to understand the word in, in a salvific sense can only do so because the Lord enables them to, whether we're talking about John three, where it says, no one can see the kingdom of Heaven apart from the spirit, right? Or we're talking about the more explicit passages where. You know, spiritual things. We, we, we share spiritual things, interpreted as spiritual people or, um, you know, uh, that the, the supernatural cannot be comprehended by the natural. It's across the whole New Testament. It is God who makes it. So not only is the word heard, but it understood it is comprehended, is spiritually appropriated. That is what we're talking about here. That is the prepared soil is the soil that can hear the word and can spiritually apprehend it. And that soil, that person, that believer who has been tilled up by God, who has been prepared in advance, not in the like, preparatory grace sense, we're not talking about like preparation, but who has been given ears to hear, right? There's a reason that that's at the end of the parable, the one who has been given ears to hear. And understand. He is the one who bears fruit and yield and, you know, a hundred fold, 60 fold, 30 fold. And again, I don't think that, this isn't saying like there's these different measurements. It's, it's saying the yield itself is not the measurement. The fact that there is a yield no matter what the measurement is, whether it's 30, which is probably a somewhat, uh, somewhat modest yield, or 60, which would probably be like a bumper crop or a hundred fold, which is like an unimaginable yield, whatever it is. If there's a yield, if there is fruit, there is fruit. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I notice that it's not, I, of course, I'm always thinking of numbers, especially when I see them pop up in the scriptures like this. I love some good multiplications of product, you know, stuff know it's not one-to-one. Even at that quote unquote lower yield, God is doing something in a multiplicative effect through normal means, in his ordinary ways that produce almo like a supernatural event, supernatural outcome or, and I mean that in like a supernatural outcome. [00:46:56] Encouragement for Believers Jesse Schwamb: And so I think that we can end with this. I'm hoping people are hearing that this is encouragement and, and maybe we should kind of draw it there because I've heard some people say that this parable refers to like three different categories of quote unquote save people. Yeah. And only the last category receives the heavenly reward, although the three of the four soils are saved. And I think like you're saying, you've drawn a good distinction for us. It's clear that the middle two soils do not hear. They do not receive truly and and understand. And we are talking about the gospel here. So I hope people are not saying or hearing, especially after what we just talked about in that third soil. This is not a, I don't know why you're clapping, I'm talking about you situation. Yeah. This is really to be a great encouragement. And I say that because sometimes. Even as we study these things, we take ourselves too seriously. Like I know that we wanna study, we wanna learn, we want to get to all the nuance theology on this. We wanna learn the right terms. But when we come to this final soil with everything you just said, which was really great admonishment that again, God is doing all the work, God is preparing that soil. God is doing this great regeneration in our lives. That's really what we're talking about here. Then what we're really saying is the forest soil. Are those who just simply receive Christ's truth into like the bottom of their hearts in the essence of their believing, and they believe it implicitly and they obey it thoroughly. It is like really a childlike faith that just recognizes because the Holy Spirit has illuminated the mind and given the heart the ability to receive it and just says. I know the truth when I see it and God has given me this ability to say, this is in fact the truth and I'll stand in it as simple as that. So what it doesn't mean is that of course everything is perfect for us or that everything is, is easy like we've been saying, but it just means we're gonna have like a uniform, plain and unmistakable results in the hearts and in the life because God has allowed us to receive this because of the great prep work that he's done. So that means even though we're gonna be sinners still, that that sin is like really hated in our lives, that we mourn over it, that we resist it as best we can, and that we renounce it. We are quick to come before God. And as Spirit said, keep short accounts. I think that's critical. It's again, it's better like running that race. It doesn't mean that we, we don't stumble that we trip, we get bloody knees, but that by the power of God we stand up again. And through his strength in the in the spirit, we keep our legs moving. I think it means things like we're going to trust Christ at his. And even though that's hard, we're gonna ask him then, Lord, would you help me? Whatever unbelief I have, of course, I believe, would you help my unbelief? Yeah. So that Christ is truly loved, he's trusted, and we follow him, we obey him. And that, as we've talked about a lot on this podcast, that we have some interest, some volitional proclivity toward holiness that shows itself in our lives, in humility, in spiritual mindness, in the fruit, not fruits, but fruit of the spirit. So we're patient, we're meek, we're kind. We seek charitable charity. I think all of these things are just peace wise, what it means to be in the forest soil, and it doesn't necessarily mean that we're the smartest person in the room when it comes to all of this theology. I think what it really calls us to is to trust God in his character for who he is and for who he says he is. And that the ability to do that, as you're saying, Tony isn't dependent on our getting enough knowledge or the knowledge is important because of course we cannot worship God properly without knowing him. But I'm gonna go all the way back to the start of this episode, and I think you said it best, which is what is our experiential faith like? And I think that is what God is calling us to here, and that experiential faith is the one that just acknowledges and receives this word of God and trust in it so deeply that it begins to know God so thoroughly because it has no other choice but to trust him in every moment of life to. Perform to exhibit and to make good on his promises in a way that moves us beyond just knowing what the scripture says by rear and rote ascent to the principles, but instead is not just a relationship with God, but is trusting in him as a child with trust in a parent who takes care of them. And God's basically saying, whom I save? I never, never deliver up the baby to be left on the doorstep. And here, I think in this parable, we find proof positive that that's exactly what God does, that he loves us. I was thinking today as we were preparing in my mind for this conversation, somehow I was just going back to First John. And I don't know, is it chapter three or chapter two? I can't remember. Somebody will call me out on it. But where? Where John says, see what love God has lavished on us, that we would be called children of God. Like see, come and see. See what love God has lavished on us and it's this, in fact, it's this love that calls us to like this. The simplest of responses here, it's not that complicated. It's challenging at times, but it's not that complicated. And that is to receive this word and then to trust in that word fully, knowing that it's God who gives us the faith to begin with and therefore it's God who beginning that good work in us will see it through to completion. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I like what you're saying here and I think you know, a bear's saying, um, because there are some quarters of. I'll, I'll do the quote unquote thing. Um, there are some quarters of quote unquote reformed Christianity. Um, and the reason I'm doing the quote unquote thing is 'cause I don't actually think that this represents reformed Christianity. Who, who would sort of minimize the call to hard work as a Christian. Right? They would, they would, they would almost degrade it to the point where a, a Christian who, who works hard and tries to get after it for holiness is somehow actually less holy than the one who. Doesn't, and that that's not a, that's not a biblical Christianity or a reformed Christianity that I recognize. I I've never seen that in the scripture. I've never seen that anywhere in the reformed confessions. Um, I've never seen any reliable, reformed thinker, um, who has articulated that we should be lazy or that we shouldn't work hard. Right. And there's a difference between saying we should work hard and get after it in regards to holiness. Um, and saying that the, the working hard is what produces the fruit or that the working hard and getting after it is what creates the holiness. That that's not at all what we're saying. What we're saying is that God creates the holiness Yeah. And he expects us to work hard out of that holiness. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Right Tony Arsenal: on. Right. He expects us to work hard because that's the kind of people that we are now. Right. He's made us into a new creation. He's made us into a new creature in Christ, and he has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in them. And he expects us to walk in them. Um, and, and he chastises us when we don't. He never lets us go. He never condemns us. He never brings final judgment upon us. Um, he, he may bring temporal judgment upon us. There are times that we are chastised and we face, uh, face divine consequences if we are not obedient to his word. But he never, he never ceases to be our heavenly Father. He never ceases. We don't ever become unjustified or even unsanctified. We're always still called according to his purposes. Um, and I think that that's where I would leave it here is that this is what it is to be good soil and. This is not a call. Um, again, to be maybe to close with a little bit of an encouraging word. This is not a call to look at your fruit and try to figure out how much you have and if you have enough of it. The point of the parable, um, i I is not, uh, your only good soil if you produce at least 30 fold. Right. I don't even know what that would translate to. Right. That's overinterpreting the parable. That's a danger we get into with all of these when we start to start to say things, you know, like you're talking about with sort of like second blessing Christianity and stuff, where, well, if you got the 30 fold or the 60 fold, then I guess like maybe you'll make it through the fire. You're, you're the, you're the person who's saved through fire in, in second in first Corinthians, right? But you really wanna bear fruit. You really want to get the reward in heaven. You really wanna have the big mansion, then you gotta be the a hundred fold Christian. That's just not the point of the parable. It's not, um, the point of the parable is that the good soil is prepared by the one who sows the seeds and the one who sows the seeds does so wisely. And the good soil does what good soil does, and it bears fruit. That's the point of the parable. And if we start to go outside of and beyond that point of that parable, that's where we start to lose the plot. When we over-interpret or we, we try to find these side stories or side points that really just are not, they're just really not there. Um, so Christian, I would, I would really encourage you, it is worth looking and seeing, am I bearing fruit? Am I the soil that's bearing fruit? But you know, the fruit is not, um, is. Even necessarily the good works we do, that is certainly a kind of fruit. But when we talk about fruit, we're talking about are you the kind of person that looks like Jesus, right? Are you loving that? Are you kind? Are you patient? Are you, you know, are you self controlled, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control against such things? There is no law, right? We're talking about the fruit of the spirit. We're talking about the Christian virtues of faith, hope and love are those things. What mark your life? Then obviously you're a good soil, right? Not those things are not what have made you good soil. Those things are in your life because you are the good soil who's received and understood the word, and it has produced those fruits. Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in this whole parable? Well, it seems clear that the parable of the sower is teaching us that the gospel call goes out to everyone, but only those whom God regenerates that good soil like we've been talking about, will receive it savingly and bear fruit, and we ought to spend some time trying to at least assess. I think this is good to try to understand in what camp do we fall here. It's a parable that, as we said, highlights all kinds of amazing things about who God is, his. Ability of sovereign grace to direct the course of all things. The necessity of fruit is evidence of true faith and the assurance that God's word never returns void among his elect. And I think it's also been made clear, at least in our conversation with me and you today, Tony, that um, we're all runners at least spiritually, and it's probably a marathon or an alter race. And so as you're saying that we need to be about the business of God, not because it's that business that somehow Meritoriously elevates us to a place of good standing with God, but it's more because he's equipped us for that run. And then he says, you're ready. You have my power and my strength. I've trained you up the, the same power that right. Rose Christ, my son from the dead is alive and well in you. And now move your legs, get going. And so we need to do all of those things. Uh, we've also learned that we can somehow keep the affirmations Nile to less than 30 minutes, even when I do my best to pull us off track. Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah. Jesse, uh, you know, I'm, I'm super excited to get into the rest of the parables. I don't think they're all gonna take three weeks. I hope they don't all take three weeks, or we should just rename this, the reformed parable. Brotherhood or something like that. Um, but we, we wanna go as quickly as we need to go, but take as much time as we need to take. And I don't, I don't know what the schedule's gonna be because I think sometimes with these parables, you start to get into 'em and you start to peel it back and you start to realize there's more to what you, there's more there than what you thought. And just like the rest of scripture, and maybe perhaps even more than the rest of scripture, um, the parables have this way of reading us, of sort of standing over us in judgment and bare, like laying us bare. Mm-hmm. And so we wanna let them do that work. We wanna let them do that. So. [00:58:25] Join the Reformed Brotherhood Community Tony Arsenal: Another place that you can, can help process this. If you are reading through the parables with us, or if you're listening to them and you wanna have more conversation. We have a little, uh, telegram chat, which is just a little chat app, uh, our own little corner of the internet where we talk about memes and we try new foods and we take videos of ourselves and we, you know, we do all sorts of stuff. Uh, there was a long conversation, uh, yesterday about whether it was deceitful for a restaurant to include, uh, to calculate the recommended tip based on the post-sale tax amount. So there's all sorts of conversations happening going on there. Um, but it's a fun place. People are charitable, they're gracious. If you've got a need for prayer, people will pray for you. They will check up on you. If you need someone to help you fix your air conditioner, there's usually someone there that's willing to help. Uh, you can go there by going to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood. You can do that from any browser, and it will either bring you into the group if you already have Telegram or I'll prompt you to download Telegram. Uh, it's an open group so you can look around, you can see if what I'm saying about it being a kind place and a charitable place is true before you join. Uh, but I do hope that you will join us. Lots of good conversation happening in there. Uh, really it's just a great place for people who are a part of this reformed brotherhood, um, experiment that we've been on for the last, almost, almost 10 years. That's crazy. It's coming up to, to really gather and just talk about this and to get after holiness together. I mean, that's really what it's about. Jesse Schwamb: Double digits. Loved ones. It's happening technically next year, I guess at the end of this year. But I'm with you. There's a bunch of channels there and I've loved, we have a whole channel and just like talking about the episode, people are just jumping in there with their own observations. Great conversation about what you and I are talking about, expanding it out. I think that that's super awesome. I do love that. The way that you sold this though was let's talk about how we calculate tax like that. That's always in tips, like that's always a real crowd pleaser. If you were looking for some esoteric math about how you are gonna calculate the tip, either gross or net, then this is your place and there's so much. If you think that's good, then I can confidently say, oh, you're gonna love it. 'cause there's a whole lot of Tony Arsenal: other more fun stuff than that. Yes, there is. Well, Jesse, this has been a great conversation. I'm super excited as we move forward on this. Uh, you know, it's, it's gonna be a good time. So if you are not subscribed to the show, somehow you're listening to this, you're not subscribed, you can go ahead to, you know, apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you happen to be listening to this. Uh, and click on that subscribe button. Uh, if you're on watching on YouTube, I guess some people will be watching on YouTube, I suppose I'm supposed to say, like, hit the reminder bell and smash that like button or something like that. Uh, but Jesse, I, I, I sound like an idiot. I'm not gonna try that again. But Jesse, until next time, honor everyone. Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound depths of Jesus' Parable of the Sower from Matthew 13. While this parable might seem unassuming compared to others, Jesse reveals how it serves as the "granddaddy" of all parables—offering a God's-eye view of salvation through the ordinary imagery of farming. The episode examines why different people respond differently to the same gospel message, and challenges listeners to consider what kind of soil their own hearts represent. Through historical context and theological reflection, Jesse unpacks how this parable prepares believers for the mixed responses they'll encounter when sharing the gospel and reminds us that the efficacy of salvation depends not on the sower's skill, but on God's sovereign work in preparing hearts to receive His Word. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Sower provides a framework for understanding the various responses to the gospel message, serving as preparation for disciples who would face both acceptance and rejection. Jesus' parables, particularly the Sower, demonstrate how God uses ordinary, mundane things to express profound spiritual truths about His kingdom. The efficacy of salvation doesn't depend on the skill of the sower but on God's sovereign work in preparing the soil of human hearts. God's Word never returns void but always comes back "full" of either acceptance or rejection—it accomplishes exactly what God intends. Historical context matters: Jesus' audience had high expectations for a Messiah who would establish an earthly kingdom, but Jesus was revealing a different kind of kingdom. The Parable of the Sower shows that the kingdom of God isn't received equally by all—some receive it with joy while others reject it outright. Having "ears to hear" is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit, not merely intellectual understanding but spiritual receptivity. The Word That Never Returns Void The power of God's Word stands at the center of the Parable of the Sower. Jesse highlights Isaiah 55, where God declares that His word "shall not return empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose." Unlike human words that often fall flat, God's Word always achieves its intended effect. This doesn't mean universal salvation, but rather that God's purposes are never thwarted. When the gospel is proclaimed, it always returns to God "full" of something—either acceptance or rejection. The parable illustrates this reality by showing the various responses to the same seed. This should encourage believers in evangelism: we are simply called to faithfully sow the seed, while God determines the harvest according to His sovereign purposes. Our success is not measured by conversions but by faithfulness in proclamation. Kingdom Expectations vs. Kingdom Reality The historical context of Jesus' ministry reveals a profound disconnect between what people expected from the Messiah and what Jesus actually delivered. Jesse explains how the Jewish people anticipated a conquering king who would overthrow Roman oppression and establish a visible earthly kingdom. Instead, Jesus announced a kingdom that begins in the heart, dividing even families according to their response to Him. The Parable of the Sower anticipates this mixed response, preparing disciples for both acceptance and rejection. This teaches modern believers an important lesson: the gospel will not be universally embraced, even when perfectly presented. Some hearts are like paths, others rocky ground, others thorny soil. Yet we continue sowing because God has appointed some to be good soil—hearts prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive the Word and bear fruit. This reality should both humble us and embolden our witness. Quotes "The power of this message is in the message itself, but the medium by which it is delivered... it does pierce the heart. It does pierce through bone and marrow. It does divide because it always returns full of either acceptance or full of rebellion and denial." - Jesse Schwamb "We find ourselves humbled. We find ourselves rushing in, coming into the kingdom, fighting to come into it because God has impassioned us with that same zeal that has accomplished this very thing. He implants it in our hearts, in our minds, in our guts, so that we would come before him and worship him." - Jesse Schwamb "Consider what it means that this good news... that God's word is his deed. This is why... it's such a blessing to live in this period of time where we have such easy access for most of us to the word of God, and that we ought to be zealous about getting that word out to all people because behind it and within it and around it is the full power of the Holy Spirit." - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript Welcome to episode 463 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for those with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, so I am just one half. Of the Reform Brotherhood squad. Tony, of course, wanted to join us on this episode, but it sometimes happens in life. Our schedules were a little bit crazy this week, and God gave us responsibilities that put us in opposite directions for part of the time. And so that means that today on this episode, I thought. You and I, we could just hang out and Tony will be back to join us in the next episode. [00:01:20] Solo Episode and Parable Series Overview But for now, this is one of those solo or formed brotherhood episodes. And if you have been tracking with us, we just started this great and amazing journey on going through all the parables that our Lord and Savior gives to us in teaching us about the kingdom of God and its power. And we just started by talking about the parable of the sower, in fact. In the last episode, we just covered basically the first two soils, the first half of that amazing little story, and I thought it would be really, really great to camp out in that for just a little bit more because even though Tony's not here, the podcast goes on and we, Tony and I never really. Thinking about these things and when we start a series in particular, we always find that we just gotta keep going back on it in our minds ruminating on what we said and what God was teaching us and the conversations like all good conversations that draw your mind back to the things that you talked about, which I should say maybe before I begin in earnest, that is also my denial, which is saying things like, let's camp out in this text now to be. Sure. There's no wrong reason why, or there's no bad reason to say words like that. It's just when I hear myself say them, I think about all the things that Christians say, like saying like, we should camp out in this text, or Let's sit in it for a while. And I think maybe it's because I'm just not into camping or maybe because I think most of the time when you use the phrase like, sit in, it's not. A happy or blessed or joyful thing that you're describing. So I always find that funny, and yet here I am saying it because I just couldn't think of anything better to say except, you know what? We should pause and maybe ruminate a little bit more. On all of this good stuff that's in Matthew chapter 13, where Jesus gives us the parable of the sower, so you can join me in sharing which little Christian phrases maybe you think you hear, we say too much or just become rote or part and parcel what it means to talk. The best way for you to do that is do me a. Go to your favorite internet device and in the browser, type T me slash reform brotherhood, that will just take you that little link to a part of the internet using an app called Telegram where a bunch of brothers and sisters who listen to the podcast are chatting about the podcast, their live sharing prayer requests, and there's even a place for you to share, Hey, what are the things that Christians say that you think. Why do we say that? Why are we always talking about hedges of protection? Why are we always talking about camping out in a text? So that's a place that you can come hang out. So go to t.me/reform brotherhood. [00:03:56] Deep Dive into the Parable of the Sower But enough of that, let's talk a little bit more about this incredible parable that our Lord and Savior gives us in Matthew chapter 13. It's so, so short in fact that I figured. The best parts of any conversation about the Bible is just hearing from God in his word. So let me read just those couple of verses. It's just eight verses beginning in Matthew chapter 13, the parable of the sower. That same day, Jesus went out from the house and sat beside the sea and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying a sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched. And since they had no roots, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seed fell on good soil and produced grain. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears let him hear. [00:05:09] Personal Reflections on the Parable I have to say that of all the parables, and we mentioned in the previous episode that this one is kind of the granddaddy of them all. It's a god's eye view on salvation told in this lovely kind of encased way about horticulture and farming and growing plants. But to be totally transparent, I never really got into this parable. It was never really my favorite one. Like of all the things that Jesus says, of all the creative and wonderful terms of phrase, this one for me always just seemed to be lacking That stuff. You know, it doesn't have really strong characters. It's about a sower, seed and soil, and compared to some other things that seems kind of unassuming and. Not very exciting, quite honestly, to me, and it's not as exciting, I think, as stories about, I don't know, losing something of value and then suddenly finding it and rejoicing and having the characters, feeling yourself in those characters as they go about experiencing all the emotions. That Jesus expresses and keyed in these lovely little riddles called parables. And so for this one, it's always been a little bit kind of like a, okay. It's interesting and the point seems fairly straightforward and it just doesn't captivate me as the others. And I've been thinking about about that, how even in this, it just seems like a really normal, mundane, kind of pedestrian expression of a life in that time. And it's all wrapped up in gardening. And throwing seeds into the ground, not even having control of their outcome. And then in this way, though, expressing and explaining this grand narrative and arc of salvation from God's perspective. So it is, again, another lesson in God using ordinary, normal, almost seemingly mundane things to express his power, to express our lack of control and to show so that he does. Did I just say so to, so that he does all things and certainly we get so much of that in this parable, and so it made me think this week after Tony and I talked about it a little bit. Just how it raises a question in this really normative, kind of unassuming, almost boring, if I can say way, this really profound question, which is, will we be this fruitful, fertile soil? Will we be fruitful followers? Of Jesus Christ. And it doesn't just raise this question, I suppose it also gives us some hope, but it also does so with a warning. It is a maybe a little bit of law and gospel even embedded in these simple means of, again, talking about what it means to plant something and to entrust the planting, the acy of the growth there to the soil and the seed, and there's hope. There's warning and there's so much of that that's in this context of the parable, and that's what's led me to wanna talk to you all a little bit about that as we kinda process together more of what this means. [00:08:00] Historical Context and Expectations of the Messiah I was thinking that when Jesus began his ministry, when he's coming forward, he's really announcing the arrival of the kingdom of God. And it's helpful, I think, to meditate as a second on how profound that is, that he comes again, not just as the message, but the messenger and the medium of that message. I was just kinda ruminating on the fact that. Everybody had high expectations. There was no one, I think, with kind of a low opinion of what was about to happen or of what the Messiah was going to bring or what he was going to do. And here you have like explicitly Jesus' hearers, their ancestors would've been taken into exile and captivity because they had broken the covenant with God. And the prophets had made this case for God's punishment because of their idolatry and their injustice. But that message, and you get this especially in in books like Isaiah. Where there's this mixture that's bittersweet. There is not only an exclusive message of woe for the people, but there is at the same time up against sick, almost running parallel. This promise of a day when God, by his own effort in Zeal, would bring about a restoration where he'd set up visibly an earthly reign through his anointed Wanda Messiah. And so I can only imagine if I could. Even partially put myself in the place of these people who are hearing this particular parable, that there is all this sense that we have strayed from God, that we're covenant breakers, but that he has promised to make a way and that his own zeal will very much accomplish this, but it will be visible and earthly, not just spiritual in the sense that we believe these things and we internalize them in the sense for our being, and therefore we speak about them in these kind of grandiose and ephemeral terms. But more than that, that God was going to come and set up an earthly reign, purely manifested in the world in which we live and breathe and have our being. And so two things would happen. Israel's oppressors would be defeated. And God would institute a pure worship and a reestablished pure worship. And so I can't help but think maybe there was some of this expectation. They're, they're seeing this Messiah, this Jesus, the one who speaks with a different kind of authority, come into their midst. And there I think all these things are somewhere in their minds as their processing. Maybe they should be in ours as well. And so there's this portrait that's being painted here of the prophet saying there's gonna be. Restoration and this image of a seed being sown. And then of course you have these metaphors that Jesus is employing in his own time. Very reminiscent of passages like in Isaiah 55, where you find the prophet saying, for as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there, but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater. So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth. It shall not return empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose and I shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. What an amazing, glorious promise of God that there is no suboptimal nature. In his expression of who he is and what he's accomplished, that the very thing that he intends to do, he always does, and this word comes back. I think what really strikes me about this passage in particular is the fact that it does not return to God empty. I mean, think about what that means. It's strange in a way. That. In other words, it's full of something. And here I think it's full of response. It's full of anticipation. It's full of this. Like what? What has gone out is now received by the individual and then returns with either acceptance or denial, very much in the same way that we're about to receive it in this parable before us. And in fact, even our ability to understand the parable. This if you have ears, he has ears. Let him hear that itself is an expression. So in other words. The power of this message is again, in the message itself, but the medium by which it is delivered, it does pierce the heart. It does pierce through bone and marrow. It does divide because it always returns full of either acceptance or full of rebellion and denial. And so when we think about the people of Israel. They exactly in that way. They return from exile under Ezra Nehemiah. But even those returns, even those improvements or some of that remediation seems to me like to come short of expectations. You know, Ezra rebuilt the temple, but it paled in comparison to Solomon's original, in fact. If we go to Ezra chapter three, there's like so much honesty as the people are seeing this rebuilt temple. Their response is, is like tragic in a way. So this is Ezra chapter three, beginning verse 12. But many of the priests and Levites and heads of fathers houses, old men. Who had seen the first house as the temple of God wept with a loud voice when they saw the foundation of this house being laid, though many shouted aloud for joy so that the people cannot distinguish the sound of the joyful from the sound of people's weeping for the people shouted with a great shout and the sound was heard far away, even in just the setting up the foundation, the base layer. There are those saying this is. This is not like it used to be. Even this is just far piles in comparison and falls very far short of the original. And of course you have Nehemiah's rebuilt wall around Jerusalem. Couldn't even ensure the holiness of God's people. And so everything up to that point. All of it was still just a shadow. It was like a big, giant disappointment, a blemish as it were, on God's people. Even as there was an attempt to restore, there was still this longing from the inside to have the real McCoy to everything made right to have the true Messiah come, not the one that was the type. Not the thing that was the shadow, not the the poor replacement or the analog, but the real thing. And so you have in response to this, you know, some of God's people move into the wilderness and pursue holy living. Some accommodated to Roman occupation like the Sadducees, some retreated into kind of individual individualistic piety or rule keeping like the Pharisees. And then there's all kinds of accounts of God's people in rebellion. Like Simon, the Zealots. There were some who even located themselves under the legitimate, yet Roman endorsed leadership of Herod, you know the Herodians. So you have all of these people you can imagine literally in the same audience. Jesus pushes back and he begins to teach them. And he starts by talking about horticulture. He starts by saying, A sower goes out and he throws all this kind of seed. And it's not difficult to imagine that all of the seed, all the soil, everything is represented in what he's saying right there. And then it's not a story as if like, well, you take this away and try to process it in such a way that you might come to terms with it later on. It's happening in the here and now. Even what he's saying. Even the message that he's communicating is being man made manifest right there in their midst, and it's not returning a void to him. The one who wrote it to begin with is the one who's speaking it, and it's having its desired effect, even as we read it now, and it reads us today. [00:15:13] Jesus' Ministry and the Kingdom of God And so it's amazing that it's on this stage that Jesus steps out and he stands, especially in the synagogue when he reads from the Isaiah scroll. And he announces that the true jubilee has now arrived and it's arrived in him. You know, by the way, what's interesting there is we have, we have no real reason to think that Israel ever really practiced Jubilee as it was outlined in the scriptures. So we have this beautiful instruction for a reset, a pure reset, and one that is liberty and freedom in so many ways, but especially demonstrated in this economic reality. And Jesus commences his public ministry proclaiming the good new. News that the kingdom of God has arrived. I feel like we have to go there, right? Because this is just so good. So in MOOC chapter four, Jesus stands up. He asks for the scroll, and this is what he reads. Loved ones. These are fantastic words. I mean, hear them from the mouth of our Savior. Again, Jesus reads this, the spirits of the Lord is upon me. Because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. It's such incredibly strong and powerful news. We're getting this sense that there are those who are poor that need. To hear that something will be different. That they are her, that they're seen that all of the straining in life and all of their labor is not in vain, but here is one who's come to rescue them and that those who have been set in prison, those who are chained and under duress and find themselves locked up. That here he has come to proclaim liberty to the captives, and then for those that cannot see, that have lost their way entirely, that are groping in the dark, here is one that's coming to recover the sight. Hear that word, not to give it brand new, but to restore that which was originally present to begin with. Imagine the horror of having your sights and then having it taken away that. Knowing that there was something there that was beautiful in your midst, something that was precious to you, and now to have that restored, in fact, like Blind by de MEUs the Greek, there is more when God says, or Jesus rather, says, what do you want me to do for you? The Greek is very clear, just says, sight again, sight again. And I think we like our ancestors and Israel here before us. We ought to be always clamoring and crying. Then I tell God like, son of David sight again. Would you help me to see truly not as the world appears to be, but we spiritual eyes, to know the truth, to understand how much you love me, and would you gimme the strength to love you? Me back love you back by way of giving, yes, this sight. And then for all those who are downtrodden. Where, wherever, and whatever that means, physically, emotionally, spiritually, that here's the one who has come to, again, set you at liberty and then to say, do you know what this time is? This is the time of the Lord's favor. Why? Because the son of man is here and where the son of man is. There is freedom and restoration. There is a new king over all things. There's one who super intends over all of the earth. Who has been given control over all things and has come to win literally the day for those who are rebellious before God, for those who have sinned, who are covenant breakers, who are gospel abusers, while we were at yet enmity with God at the right time, Jesus and his son for us. And so we find that it's like the pretext, it's the context for all of this, and especially this parable. And of course, rather than. Everybody listening to what Jesus has to say here and just being one over being filled with some kind of winsome logic of what's being said here, of being thoroughly convinced. We know that of course it's not just a matter of evidence, but unless the Holy Spirit comes the same spirit, which is upon Jesus, the sin of God, to change us, to open our ears, that we do not hear these things, we don't hear them as we ought to. We do not give them heed. We do not internalize them, and we cannot understand them. And so because of that, rather than of course meeting with universal acceptance, Jesus, of course, he encounters a host of reactions. Some opposed him. The crowds sometimes were way more motivated, like people in our day by novelty or curiosity or by presume rewards or blessings. You can imagine this is what makes, of course, something like the Blat and grab, its kind of gospel, the prosperity of some of our modern evangelical expression, so incredibly dangerous. Because of course people will say, well, if I can get that blessing, of course I want Jesus. Or if I'm gonna be made, well, yes, I'll, I'll find, I'll take Jesus. If I'm gonna get wealth and riches and a 401k, that's gonna suit my every need. Well sure I'll take Jesus. And of course, the blessing, the reward of getting Jesus is getting the son of God, getting the one who restores us first and predominantly. With God the father himself, that all of those blessings are already ours in the spiritual realm because of Jesus. In fact, we've, we've already been placed with him in the heavenly realms. That is the reward. And so sometimes the gods were a little bit more motivated by, this guy's given us bread before. Let's see if there's gonna be another buffet, rather than he says We ought to eat and drink his flesh. That in that is eternal life, and so we get distracted. And so sometimes novelty and curiosity just win the day. And then of course, on the other hand. Some of the most unlikely unseemly, most sinful were responding with incredible joy and embracing Jesus and his announcement. Tenaciously like voraciously, the ones who were humble, who knew that they needed a savior, they needed a reconciliation that was alien and outside of themselves. Something powerful that could defeat even the sin that was within them and bring about a pure and unbridled atonement, unreserved in its ability to clean. These were the ones who were saying, come, Lord Jesus, these were the ones crying out, saying, have mercy on me, son of David. And we like them. Ought to follow that example. And so throughout Matthew's Gospel and Luke's gospel. There's a mixed response throughout the entire ministry of Jesus. And again, what's unique about this parable, I think, is that Jesus comes setting the stage for that unique response. All of those different kind of options and how people will perceive him, how they respond to him, what they will say to him. And so whether as you go through the narratives in the gospels, you look to. The Samaritan Leopard or the blind beggar, or the Chief tax Collector, or the impoverished widow, all of these were those who were forcing their way into the kingdom in response during the good news. There's really something I think that's beautiful about that, that God allows for us to force our way as it were. When we are convicted of this kingdom, that he is the kingdom and that he brings it to us. That we come headlong, rushing in, falling over ourselves to get into that kingdom by the power of the Holy Spirit. And that's why I think, why, why Luke writes in chapter 16 of his gospel. The law in the prophets were until John. Since then, the good news of the kingdom of God is preached and everyone forces his way into it. What a amazing and lovely thing that God allows us. Which is the truth, to force our way into that. So these were the ones who proved to be the fertile soil for the word of the kingdom, not the ones who chose the places of honor or the privilege, or we saw Jesus one of many important priorities to be managed. What we have here is the ones who forced their way in. These were the ones who proved to be the fertile soil, and I'm not gonna steal. Any of our thunder, because Tony and I are gonna talk about that in the next episode. But I bring that up merely to say there's so much that's rich here. When we think about are we as Christians fruitful and fertile? In our following, after the Lord Jesus Christ. And that's Matthew's great theme of reversal, like beginning in the birth narratives of Jesus and continuing through the very end of his gospel count. Even like in his final parable, Jesus forced the confrontation with his opponents by declaring that God would give the kingdom to those who had produce a harvest for God in honor. His son. That's the truth. And so he was more than simply this messenger in these cleverly created stories announcing the arrival of God's reign. He was the one who brought the kingdom. And actually, in fact, Jesus embodies the kingdom because he was the king, not only of Israel, but the royal son of God who would rule the nations. And because of that. He did represent a threat to overthrow to some just as much as he was meant as a salvation and a blessing to others. He is divisive. In fact, what's interesting is if you track Jesus standing up in the temple. And he comes forward and reads from Isaiah. It's interesting where he stops reading. This is really before kind of the, all the language about the second coming back, him really coming not to bring just salvation, but to bring retribution, to bring justice and punishment for those who are God's enemies. And so really this first coming. Jesus is all about this. It's it's all about having the message of God go out in that return void. It's returning full of the response of God's people, full of the response of God's enemies and therefore. This parable, an ex explanation to his inner circle would be understood as an accounting for the surprising range of responses. And even more than I think like an ex explanation, like explicitly it would be this kind of preparation. This kind of, again, setting a table or opening up a pathway for this hard road that lay ahead for those who would remain true to Jesus. These would be the ones who would serve the ultimate purpose of God's great act of sowing in his son to produce a great harvest. And of course. That is partly what lies the hope for us. I mean, I think I said last time we spoke about this, what I appreciate about this teaching is not only that it doesn't pull any punches, but it's just so. Real, it's so resonant because Jesus already gives us some of the breadth and scope or the continuum of the responses so that when we go out and we should so unreservedly that that is by proclaiming Jesus as the king who has come as the kingdom already ushered in as here, but not yet. When we do this, we can expect already that there'll be various responses. So one for us, it takes away the surprise. The second is it does prepare us. That these things might in fact happen. And three, it gives us a sense that, again, the efficacy of salvation. And we're getting, by the way, this view of salvation from, from God isn't again dependent on the skillset of the sower. Instead, it is God's prerogative. It's always God's prerogative. And here as loved ones, you've heard me say again, I must invoke the phrase, we have God doing all the verbs, right? He's the one walking in the field. He's the one reaching in into the seed bag, as it were. He's the one casting it liberally across the ground. He's the one making it grow. All of this is what God is doing. The preparation of the soil, the casting of the seed, the being present in. Farmland. All of this is what God is doing now. We emulate that by design. So now the call is to do what Jesus has done here in Mala for us, and that is that we also go out into the world and we proclaim this good news because what is unequivocally true is that the good news of Jesus Christ. Is for all people. Now, this does not mean that all people will accept it. That is abundantly clear in the message that Jesus gives to us. It does not prevent though us or him from casting it out to all people. We see that really, really. Vividly. Some will be given ears to hear. We ought to pray that our neighbors, our children, those in our churches and our communities, our politicians, we ought to be praying that all would be given ears to hear, and the seed of God's word will accomplish exactly what God intends and Jesus' word, a proclamation announcing the good news of the kingdom of God. We see vividly the point that God's word is. Deed that this word that he spoke speaks is his action. It's not simply that God says what he will do, but that his very act of speaking is the means by which he does that very thing. When we hear God speak to us, it is proof that we are alive. Not only do like dead men tell no tales, I think I've just inadvertently like quoted from Disney's. Um. Pirates movie, but they hear no tells as well. You know, you have been born again, not a perishable seed, but of imperishable through the living and abiding word of God. Incredible. Isn't it? Loved ones like it's incredible this story that to me on the beginning seems like so kind of. Boring and not particularly catchy and maybe not as interesting as some of the others contained within. This is literally all the words of life in the seed that we've seen thrown and in. It is like the continuum we find, not that it emulates the Old Testament, or that it somehow compliments New Testament, but within all within this parable is all of the scriptures and all of the full plan of God and all of his great love for us. That again, while we were at his enemies, he came and on this path, as he walks among the field, he casts the seed. To all, and he, by his power, gives to some these ears to hear. We find ourselves humbled. We find ourselves rushing in coming into the kingdom, fighting to come into it because God has impassioned us with that same zeal that has accomplished this very thing. He implants it in our hearts, in our minds, in our guts, so that we would come before him and worship him, fall down and find. The one who is our savior, who ushers in the visible kingdom of God, the one that is not built merely on political theories, on good rules. The kind of gospel that didn't come to make bad people good, but came to make dead people alive again. And I think that that is the absolute. Untouchable, unfathomable, almost completely un understandable, if you will, truth of this particular parable. I think this is why the Westminster confession describes the word of God, and particularly the preaching of the word as a means of grace. The word is powerful in itself by the spirits of God. I had to quote the Westminster, of course, at least in honor of Tony, so. [00:30:02] Call to Action and Final Thoughts That's my little challenge to you on this short little episode. It's just you and me and I'm saying to you loved ones. Consider this parable again. Consider how palpable this parable is. Consider what God has for us in it. Consider this soils. And then think about what it means that this good news, we see this within it, this vivid point again, that God's word is his deed. And so this is why though we do not create any kind of legalistic, conscription, or prescription around something like daily Bible study. Why? It's such a blessing to live in this period of time where we have such easy access for most of us to the word of God, and that we ought to be zealous about getting that word out to all people because, because behind it and within it and around it is the full power of the Holy Spirit that is always going out into the world and returning full with response and that when God. Speaks his word. He's always accomplishing his act in that very deed. And so it should be a blessing. We should be compelled to find ourselves in it as much as often as we can because what we're finding there is the power of God for us, in us speaking, administering to us to produce in us a great harvest. That's the promise it's coming, and we're gonna get there in the next. Episode, but what I'll leave you with is just those first two soils thinking about if you have ears to hear, if you have been made alive together with Christ, then consider that there was a time when you are one of the other soils and God who's being rich in mercy has rescued you. Not because of work done in righteousness, not because you've come forward and. Elevate your place to the, to elevate your state to the place of deserving poor. Not because like you came forward with, with empty hands and somehow convinced God that you are worthy enough, or sorry enough or contrite enough. But because of his great mercy, and it's that mercy, I think that compels us to say things to Jesus like Son of David Sight again. Son of David, have mercy on me, son of David. You are the real arrival of the Kingdom of God and your word bears testimony and your Holy Spirit has in a great work in my life. And to that end, I want to follow you and I want to ensure that this word that you've given to me is given to all people. So there's work to do, loved ones. And there's a lot there to process. I hope that you will take some time. Think about this in your own way, and as you are processing this as God is speaking to you, as you are joining together with loved ones from literally all over the world who are hanging out and listening to Tony and I chat about this stuff, that again, you would share your own voice, the best way to do that. Why do you make me beg you? Come join the Telegram chat. You'll have a great time. It's super fun. T me slash Reform Brotherhood. I would also be remiss if I didn't on behalf of myself and Tony, thank everyone who does hang out there, everyone who sent us the email, everyone who shares prayer requests or has prayed for us, and as well everyone who makes sure that this podcast. Is free of charge. It comes with its own expenses. It's not free to produce. And so we're so thankful that those who've said, listen, I've been blessed by the podcast, or It's just been important or special to me. God has done something in it. Or God has renewed a different kind of desire and passion to talk about the things of God or to encourage me in my life. I'm so happy if other things have happened. By the way, it's not because of Tony or me. It's because God is good to us. I mean, can I get an amen? I see that hand. In the back, God is good to Tony and me and we're just so thankful that we get to do this. And so if you'd like to join in supporting financially. Every little gift helps. You can go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood patreon.com, reform Brotherhood, and there you can find a way to give one time or reoccurring all of those gifts together. Make sure that there's no payrolls on this bad boy that you're not gonna get any super weird ads in the middle of it. You're just gonna get us talking. We want to em, I would say be emblematic of what we've talked about here, which is. Freely we've received freely want to give. And for those who join and say, I wanna make that possible so that no one has to be compelled to pay for this kind of thing, I love that we are here for that every day of the week and twice on the Lord's day. So next episode, Tony and I are gonna continue in this parable. We're probably, you know, gonna get together. We'll set up our tents, we'll just camp out here for a little bit. So until we get the tents out, we get the s'mores. And we start camping. Honor everyone love the brotherhood.

In this insightful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin their series on Jesus's parables by examining the Parable of the Sower (or Soils). This foundational teaching from Christ reveals why some hearts receive the gospel message while others reject it. The hosts unpack the four soil types Jesus describes, exploring what each represents spiritually and how these patterns continue to manifest today. They emphasize that while the parable reveals different responses to the gospel, it also provides comfort for believers engaged in evangelism, reminding us that outcomes ultimately depend not on the sower's skill but on the condition of the soil—a condition that only God can prepare. This episode offers both theological depth and practical encouragement for Christians seeking to understand the various responses to the gospel message in their own ministry contexts. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Sower serves as a hermeneutical key for understanding all of Jesus's parables, as it directly addresses why Jesus taught in parables and provides the interpretive framework for understanding their purpose. The parable reveals four types of responses to the gospel (represented by the four soils), but only one that leads to genuine salvation and fruit-bearing. The focus of the parable is not on the sower's skill or the seed's quality but on the condition of the soil—emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation while encouraging continued evangelism. The "rocky ground" hearers represent those who initially receive the gospel with joy but have no root system to sustain them when trials come, often resulting in what we might call "deconstruction" today. Christians should expect varied responses to gospel proclamation and not be discouraged when the seed appears to be wasted on unresponsive hearts, as this pattern was predicted by Jesus himself. The parable provides a warning against shallow faith while encouraging believers to develop deep spiritual roots that can withstand persecution and trials. Genuine conversion is ultimately evidenced by fruit-bearing, not merely by initial enthusiasm or religious affiliation. Understanding the Soils The Parable of the Sower presents four distinct soil types, each representing different responses to the gospel message. The first soil—the path—represents hearts where the gospel makes no impact whatsoever; the seed simply bounces off and is quickly snatched away by Satan. This illustrates not merely outward rejection of the gospel, but also intellectual non-comprehension. As Tony explains, this doesn't necessarily mean active hostility toward the gospel but could simply be indifference: "It may not be someone who has like a closed fist, 'I hate the gospel, I hate everything about God,' but for some reason they're just not [interested]." This parallels Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him." The rocky soil represents those who initially receive the gospel with enthusiasm but lack depth. Their faith appears genuine at first but quickly withers under pressure or persecution. This phenomenon is particularly evident in what we often call "deconstruction" today—where someone who appeared genuinely converted falls away when their faith is tested. As Jesse notes, "I think what I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind...what's the length of time here? Is it possible that somebody could be in this place...which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end?" The parable reminds us that immediate joy at receiving the gospel is not necessarily evidence of saving faith, and it calls us to examine whether our own faith has sufficient depth to withstand trials. The Comfort of Realistic Expectations One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it calibrates our expectations about evangelism and gospel ministry. Jesus teaches that when the gospel is proclaimed, we should expect varied responses—including outright rejection—not because of any failure in the message or messenger, but because of the condition of human hearts. This provides tremendous comfort for believers engaged in evangelistic efforts who might otherwise be discouraged by apparent failure. Tony highlights this point: "This parable is not about the skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed...The point of the parable...is that it has to do with the soil itself." This understanding frees us from the pressure of thinking we must somehow perfect our evangelistic technique or presentation, while also removing the false guilt that can come when people reject the message we share. Furthermore, the parable encourages continued, generous sowing of the gospel seed. As Tony observes, "We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this seed everywhere that he can." This reminds us that our responsibility is faithful proclamation, while the results remain in God's sovereign hands. Memorable Quotes "The Parable of the Sower teaches really that the gospel call goes out to all... but only those who God regenerates, that good soil, are gonna receive it savingly and will bear fruit." - Jesse Schwamb "Just because our experience of Christianity and our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that it felt real and genuine and rooted for [those who later fell away]... There's a caution there for us." - Tony Arsenal "The exhortation built into this is that we need to seek that root. We don't get to determine what kind of soil we are on an ultimate level—that's God's election and his secret providence. But on a horizontal level, in our experience of things, we have agency, we make decisions. We seek to be rooted or unrooted in the gospel." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:36] Introduction and Greetings Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 462 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of Good Soil. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Well, will you look at us? Look at us. It's finally and officially begun. And that is this conversation. [00:01:00] Kickoff to the Parable Series Jesse Schwamb: This episode is really the kickoff, well, the first parable that we're going through together, starting a long conversation that I think is gonna bear much fruit, if you will. Yes. Maybe 30, maybe 60, maybe a hundred times. Lord willing. It's gonna be great. And we're starting off with a doozy. Yes. Actually, maybe this is like the granddaddy of all the parables because we're gonna hear Jesus tell us something about the word of God and how it's received among different hearers. And this is so fantastic. It's the only place to begin because this is truly some eternally contemporary words. Yeah, it's, this is the parable that's continually verified under our own eyes. Wherever the word of God is preached or expounded and people are assembled to hear it, the sayings of our Lord in this parable are found to be true. It describes what goes on as a general rule in our congregations in the world. Anytime the word of God goes out, what a place to begin. So we're gonna get there. It's gonna be great, don't you worry, dear listener. [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: But of course, before we do that, it's our tradition, our word that's spoken is always something in affirmation with something or in denial against something. So I say to you, as I always do, Tony. What do you have for us on this episode? Uh, an affirmation or denial. Tony Arsenal: This is an affirmation. I'll try to keep it nice and short and tight. Uh, I am affirming everything that comes with the fall. It's the air's getting crisp. The season, the, the pumpkin. Yeah. Not, not the fall. With the, let's, let's, let's clarify. I'm affirming everything that comes with autumn. So, uh, the air's crisp, the pumpkin spice is flowing, the leaves are starting to come down. Although, as a New Englander, I feel like I might be a little disappointed this year they're saying that it might not be as vibrant because we've been under a bit of a drought. But, uh, I, I'm all for all of it. Sweaters, gimme like a nice cozy scarf to put on and like a, I don't know, like a stocking cap. Gimme some flannel. I'm just ready to rock and roll. I'm, I'm, I'm done with summer and I'm ready for fall and yeah, that's, that's the whole thing. That's the affirmation. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:03:09] Autumnal Delights and Debates Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. It's speaking of like eternally or seasonally contemporary. That is so good. Plus I would say like the fall or autumn. The best adjectives, doesn't it? Yes. Like including like the word ottum. Yes. Like, that's just a great word that we, we do not use enough of. So this season, loved ones dropping a tum in there because Yes. It's just such a good word. Tony Arsenal: And I, I know people hate on the pumpkin spice and uh, there was a rev, I think I've said this before, it's re revolutionized my understanding because I used to get so mad because I was like, this doesn't even taste like pumpkin. It's not pumpkin flavored items, it's pumpkin spiced. Flavored items. So it's the, the spice you would use in pumpkin pie is the spice that they're talking about. So people complain that you're just putting nutmeg in things. And to that, I say yes, that's the point. You just start adding nutmeg or pumpkin spice or cloves or all spice or whatever it might be. The point is we're using the same spices that you would use for making a pumpkin pie or some other sort of fall. Delicious fall. Pumpy squashy, goodness. Jesse Schwamb: You got that right. This is a classic case of don't hate the player. Hate the game. Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. And if you don't like it, if you don't like pumpkin spice, then just don't talk to me at all. I'm just kidding. Still get pumpkin spice. Like you can go to Starbucks and get the same, same coffee you always get. You don't have to get pumpkin spice, you don't have to drink pumpkin beer, you don't have to do any of that. The all the stuff is, all the normal stuff is still available. They don't tell you you can't have it. Nobody is opening your mouth and pouring it down your throat. So just calm down, order your normal drip coffee and move on with your life. Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of polarizing autumnal type things, I don't know if we've talked about probably, we have talked about this and I've just forgotten. Where do you land on the whole. Cotton, uh, sorry. Candy corn, not cotton candy, but candy corn. Tony Arsenal: I, I feel like we have talked about this and my perspectives may have changed over the years. I'm not a big fan of candy corn, but I will eat it until I vomit. If you put it in front, I think is the, is the consensus that if there's a bowl of it in front of me, the first thing that I will do is I will break off two little white tips of the ca uh, candy corn and stick them on my fangs and pretend to be vampire. Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. Tony Arsenal: And then I will eat the remainder of the pound and a half of candy that's in front of me until I throw up. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I know there's some difference between like candy, corn and like the little pumpkin confectionary ones. Yeah. Some people prefer those over others. And then this is not even to talk about the whole debate between when it comes to Reese's Peanut butter cups and Oh yeah. The pumpkin variety of those and No, all that stuff. Tony Arsenal: No. Mm. Jesse Schwamb: No. To those? Tony Arsenal: No, to those. The, the shaped, the shaped, uh, Reese's Peanut butter objects, I suppose they're not cups at that point. Uh, they use a different kind of peanut butter. I dunno if you know that, but they use a different peanut butter. So they, they actually do taste different than the actual didn't know that says peanut butter cups. Um, it's either a different kind of peanut butter or a different kind of chocolate. But one of the primary substances, uh, not in the Aristotelian sense, uh, one of the primary substances is different. And so it does actually taste different. It's not as good. And then the balance between the chocolate and the peanut butter is off. It's, it's not good. I'm a, I'm a peanut butter cup. Uh, I like to say aficionado, but I think probably snob would be a better. A better term for it. Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you'll, you like what you like by the way, only on this podcast, only, I think among long-term listeners, would it be necessary to clarify that you do not mean substance in there was six alien sense. Tony Arsenal: That's true. That's, that's definitely true. Well, Jesse, that is where we are. Enough about my, uh, fall. Uh, food preferences. What are you affirming and or denying? Tonight, [00:07:02] Musical Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna also come along with you on it with the affirmation, and maybe while you're drinking that PSL or you're searching for that candy, corn, you might like, want something to put into your ears that isn't us, that's a little bit more melodic. And so I'm affirming with the, this time and age in which it is all about curation. That's often a lovely thing. I use Spotify for all of my music consumption, and they just fed me like a really interesting playlist that I would never have thought of as a category, but I've really been enjoying, it's called Math Rock. And I saw, and I thought I'm, I'm usually kinda like dubious of the Spotify playlist because like they're kind of out there for me generally. But I thought to myself, well, this is an interesting port man too. Like, I like math. I like rock, and the description was complex rhythms and mesmerizing loops. So I thought, I like complex rhythms. I like loops that continue and mesmerize, so the check it out for yourself. If you're looking for something that's like, it's enough to be interesting while you're working on something, but not too interesting. So that distracts you. This is apparently the jam. So yeah, it's like just really interesting rock oriented, mostly instrumental music that is like. Really motivating, but again, not interesting enough to really distract you from the task at hand if that's not your thing. The other thing I would recommend, I know you'll join me in this, Tony, is that poor Bishop Hooper released a new album this week. It's called The Serpent and the Seed, and this one has a ton of tracks on it, like 18 or so, and it, it as well is a unique mix of both instrumental, really lovely, beautiful pieces and then some that carry more vocal and melodic stuff that's kind of their customary jam. Both of 'em are great. They both do have kind of an an autumnal vibe, if I'm honest. Now I'm thinking about it. It's really the perfect compliment to whatever it is that you're consuming that has that pumpkin spice in it. So math, rock, the serpent and the seed. There you go. Tony Arsenal: I'm trying to synthesize. I mean, math and rock are like two of Jesse's favorite things. So I'm trying to synthesize what it would be like to scream the quadratic equation at someone with some sort of like slightly off cadence, dissonant guitar rift underneath. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: I feel like there's a Me Without You album out there somewhere that that's exactly what it is. But Jesse Schwamb: yeah, probably there should Tony Arsenal: be at least. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there, there absolutely should be. And I'm with you. I'm willing to work on that album. That's a great idea. Like just, it's just an album of mathematical equations and like the deep mysteries of life, you know, listen, math is beautiful. Numbers are stories. There's, there's so much there. Yeah. You had me at Quadratic, so I, I think we've, we've given people a lot to enjoy in this fall season. It's true. Tony Arsenal: I, I. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation to save my entire life at this point. Uh, I took introduction to logic when I got to college 'cause I couldn't remember how to multiply fractions on the entrance exam. That's fair. So that's fair. So that was, that's my experience with math. But right Jesse Schwamb: now the internet wants to keep serving me videos about, you've seen like all these tests, like these entrance exams for like Harvard or like the Ivy Leagues, other Ivy Leagues, and it is all these random things, you know, like we're solving for like two variables, terminally, and there is some kinda like expon explanation to it. Um. Yeah, I guess that's what I've become and I watch 'em all. They honestly get me every time. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not gonna watch that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna watch that. So it just happens. It's great. Tony Arsenal: I love it. Meanwhile, meanwhile, YouTube is desperately trying to get me to watch Season six and Cobra High. And it's very quickly gonna be succeeding. I think the next time Netflix has a, has a promotion where I can get a cheap month or something like that, I will definitely be binging Cobra Kai. So I feel like our YouTube algorithms are very different. Jesse Schwamb: Very different. Yeah. Very different. Certainly in, um, there is a commonality of, of the mysteries of the world and. [00:11:06] Introduction to the Parable of the Sower Jesse Schwamb: In some way, that's what we're talking about in this entire series. And yeah, if for some reason you didn't hear a conversation from two weeks ago where we really set the table, I think for what a parable is, why Jesus uses parables. As far as I remember, you correct if I'm wrong, it was the definitive conversation about why the parable is not just peace wise in Jesus' teaching, but really why it's the centerpiece. Yeah, we talked about that at great length. So now we're really ready to go. If you didn't hear that, I highly recommend you go back and hear that. 'cause there's so much. I realize as we, we looked at this parable of the sower or better like the parable of the soils, that we could do a whole series on just this bad boy. Such not just like wide interpretation, but wide application. So much for us to really chew on and then to really come back to and chew the could. So we're gonna have to be probably every time a little bit self-editing and brief. So if you're just yelling at your device, why aren't you talking about this thing? There's a great place for you to yell into or maybe just calmly and very politely suggest rather than the void, you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just an app for, it's kind of a conversational tool and platform, and if you're looking for it and I know that you are, don't, why would you even fool yourself? It's, you can find it by going to T Me Reform Brotherhood. There's a whole channel, there's a bunch of channels there, a bunch of little conversations that we have compartmentalize. There's one just to talk about the episode. So as we go through this, my encouragement to everybody is track with us, get your scriptures out. Come along with us in the actual journey of processing this. Do spend some time processing it with us. And then when there is inevitably that thing, they're like, why didn't you talk about this? You know, a great place to converse with others and us about that would be in the Telegram Chat. So T Me Reform Brotherhood. So enough of that, let's get to it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's some, um, there's some logic that would say we should have just rather than doing an Introduction to Parables episode, we should have just done the parable, because this parable does really follow, it really does form like an introduction to all of Christ's parabolic teachings. And, you know, it's, no, it's no, um, mystery either in God's providence or just in Matthew as being a, a, you know, somewhat genius level composer of, of a work of literature in putting this parable first, because you're absolutely right at the top of the show that this parable really is. Almost like the hermeneutical key for all of the parables. Not just for in terms of like understanding the parables, it doesn't do that so much. But in understanding the purpose of the parables and more importantly, explicitly in the middle of this, Christ explains why he teaches in parables. So we covered that a lot last time, so we're not gonna, we're gonna skip over that middle section 'cause we don't need to rehash that. But this really is the granddaddy of all the parables. It it is, um. It is Christ's teaching on why he uses parables in action. It's the application of his own theology, of parables, if you want to call it that. Uh, in principle. And he is gracious enough that in this very first parable, he actually gives us the interpretation, right, which is, is not entirely unique, um, in, in the gospels, but it is not always the norm. There are a fair number of parables where Christ just drops the parable and leaves it there, um, for both his immediate listeners to figure out and then also for us to figure out. We're not given the inspired interpretation, but this one we are given the inspired interpretation. And Jesse, I had to laugh because, um. Just as you get really, really upset and worked, worked up about when people say Christ's body broken for you. Uh, it just drives me nuts when people call this the parable of the soils. 'cause Christ gives it a name, right? So, so we'll talk about that too. And I, I'm, I'm mostly playing, like, I'm not gonna jump through the screen at you or anything like that, but that's the, one of the other unique features of this parable is that it's given it's, it's given a name. Um, and that's part of the interpretation is that in most cases, parables have a primary figure or a primary point that's being made. And if you get that primary point wrong or that primary figure wrong, um, you tend to get the rest of the parable wrong. In this case, Christ graciously tells us who the parable is about or what the parable is about, and then later on when we get to the, the next parable or a couple parables down, um, he actually tells us more about the parable through some other teaching as well. [00:15:38] Reading and Analyzing the Parable Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, do you have that text in front of us? Do you wanna go ahead and read that first chunk? That's the parable itself. Jesse Schwamb: I do, let's do it by the way. Uh, maybe somebody should keep track. Here's a fun little game of how many times we say parable or parabolic. And of course, whenever I hear parabolic, I always think, of course there is like something of great hyperbole or allegory, but I often think of, uh, parabola, which to your point, Tony, I think you're just doing this for my sake now, and I love, this is an exponent oriented equation. Of course, it's a like a canonical section, which can only be creative mathematically by pronunciation again. So thank you for that. I thought you just did that for me, so Tony Arsenal: I have no idea what you just said. You might as well have been speaking like Hindu. Jesse Schwamb: It's fantastic. Well, let's, let's get to the actual, the best word, the word of life. And this is from Matthew chapter 13. Beginning just at the start of the chapter. That same day, Jesus went out of his, uh, house and sat beside the sea and, and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying. A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprung up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched. And since they had no roots, they were it away. Other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let him hear. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So on a surface level here, the, the parable is straightforward, right? We have a very straightforward picture, which is, is common for most of the parables, that it's not some sort of unusual, crazy out there situation that's being described. It's a common scenario from everyday life, uh, that doesn't tend to have sort of like. Mythological legendary kinds of characteristics. We have a simple farmer who is out sowing his seeds. Um, some of the commentaries we'll point out, and I don't, I dunno how accurate this is or isn't, but I, I saw it in, in a couple different commentaries. So I'm inclined to, to believe it that our model of farming, uh, in sort of a western world or, or maybe not western world, but in a more, I dunno, technologically advanced world, is to teal the ground till the ground first, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: And then to scatter seed. And it was much more common in the ancient world to actually scatter the seed kind of, uh, promiscuously and then till the ground. Um, I don't know the reasons for that. I'm not a horticulturist, but, um. The, the, one of the critiques that I've heard, and it's funny when people try to critique Jesus is 'cause they're always proven wrong, but one of the critiques I've heard is like, no farmer whatever would ever do this. Like, no, no sower would ever just throw seed on the ground, but this actually is the way they would've done farming. So he's, he's taking an everyday scenario that everyone would've been familiar with. Right. Nobody would've been like, oh yeah, that doesn't make any sense. They would've just said, oh yeah, of course you just throw the seed on the ground and then you come back around later and you do what you need to do. So it, it was really a scenario where some of the seed would've fallen on the path. And we're not talking about like a road next to the farm, but a lot of times the, the field had sort of, um. They're probably called like convenience trails is what they're called now. But people would travel through the, through the paths, and so there would be an area that's already walked, walked on that's a little bit easier to traverse. And eventually that area would turn into a pathway. So it was, it was kind of turned into sort of like hard clay turf that you couldn't get the seed into anyways. And then there would've been areas where, um, there was rocks under the surface. Most of our fields that our farm fields have been tilled and prepared and have been worked over, that the stones had been removed. But it wasn't always like that in the ancient world. And then you would've had areas where there was, uh, there was other vegetation, thorns, weeds, other kinds of plants that would've made, made it difficult for the crop to sprout and to bear fruit. So we have a very common scenario. There's nothing surprising about this. There's nothing out of the ordinary. It's just a simple farming metaphor that Christ employs here. Jesse Schwamb: And in some ways that's very consistent of course, because we have these very ordinary, normal things that God is using as a means of explanation for something that is very extraordinary, very supernatural. So we have the natural coming into play, not just as a representation, but to really demonstrates, illustrates and impound both in structure and form. This idea of what it means for the gospel to be communicated. And I'm with you, my understanding is in most ancient world. Those, those fields, we tend to think of them as fields and often the reference that way were like more like these narrow strips of land separated by these paths and you have this farmer casting the seed like very liberally. And not only that, but I think what's interesting right on the face. Is we see that there are basically four potential outcomes here and only one of those outcomes, 'cause we're already understanding this to mean the sowing of the sea, which is the word of life, which is the gospel message. Only one of those outcomes results in kingdom growth. There's a ratio of three to one. There's three times as many poor outcomes. In other words, there's all of these various ways in which we find that the seed is not rejected or does not result in the intended fruit. But there is just one path, one narrow kind of way in which it does result, and then it results in kind of various outcomes in terms of like the magnitude of the fruit or the plants that result from this planting. But as a result of that. I think what's really interesting to me right on the face is that we're seeing, like you said, there is a sower. He's casting the seed deliberately, he's coming on the path and he's just throwing it out. And in that narrow strip of land, there are all these different soils. And so right away we see if you're, if you're a farmer, you're understanding something about, it's not about the skill of the farmer in the casting of the seed. It's not even about the, the skill of the seed to grow. It's about the soil itself. And so again, we have this as three times as many potentially poor outcomes as there are for the one that results in this grand harvest. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And the one thing about this that might be, might have been, and, and again, some of the commentators are, are split on this, but might have been a sort of unexpected, um, element. And, and this is something we do see with, uh, with the parables, is there's usually some sort of, um. Unexpected or dramatic or turn of events kind of element, usually towards the end of a parable that would make, would, should be a subversion of expectations. Right? Right. And so the, in this instance, um, a yield of 30 times or, or 60 times or a hundred times, all of those yields would be crazy high yields. Um, you know, I, I, I think there are some plants, some of the commentators will make, make a point that there are some plants where like a 30. A 30 yield is normal. Um, but a 30 or a 60 or a hundred times yield of a crop is, is not the expectation. And so I think in, in a scenario like this, the reader or the listener is prepped by the fact that there are three, uh, negative outcomes and only one favorable outcome. To assume that the crop yield is not going to be great. Right? And then the reality is the crops that do sprout the crops that land on the good soil or the seed that lands on the good soil. Not only is it productive, it's so productive that it actually outpaces and kind of compensates for the lack of productivity or the lack of fruitfulness of the other three. So it's, it's three different, uh, it's four possible outcomes and then three levels of fruitfulness. And so this parable does sort of cause the listener or the hearer to think about, um, and start, you know, from the very outset, think about what does, what does it mean that the seed landed on the path and was stolen away by the birds? What does it mean that it sprouted quickly and uh, but didn't have roots and so it withered away in the sun? And what does it mean that, you know, it sprouted among thorns and so it couldn't bear fruit. And then I think the implied, um, the implied question that's being forced here because the parable does start out, you know, saying there was the sower, the sower, um. Sowed this seed out. He doesn't introduce this the same way he normally, he normally does or commonly does, right? Jesus often will start the peril ball by saying something like, the kingdom of God is like, right? Or you know this. This is like that. This, he just starts out saying like, a sower was out in the, in the field sowing seed. So the, the listener is not primed to know what the comparison is necessarily, but I think part of that is that now they're forced to ask what is the comparison? And I don't think it's much of a stretch. And again, this is why parables are so kind of paradoxical is it's not a difficult, when we get to the interpretation, it's not difficult to see the interpretation. Right, right. It's, it's easy to understand that the parable here, the metaphor is, is different reactions of, of some sort to. To a given thing, right? It's, it's different reactions to an investment of some sort. There's an investment of seed and in some instances it just doesn't take, in other instances, it takes and it doesn't sprout, and in other instances it sprouts, but it never fruits. So when we get to the interpretation, Jesus is gonna give us the clarity of what that investment is, and then who are, or what are the outcomes and what do they mean? In, in our, you know, in our thought process of what the kingdom of God is like. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so let's do it then. [00:25:44] Understanding the Soils Jesse Schwamb: 'cause what we've got here is we basically have, each soil is representing some type of here. So we've got four heres but only one true believer. So it's probably behooves us to go through all of them and really kind of chat through. And maybe what we can do is try to bring some of our own practical application to each of these. I've been really meditating and pondering that, trying to think if this is practical for us, then how can we understand how each of these are being manifest all around us? And of course the intention here is not to like name people that we think fall into each of these four little groups, but more so to think about how we might understand people who do fall into each of these groups. And that is to say that. Each one of these, well, the, the first three rather, that these ones in which they're, the soil is in some degree suboptimal. I, I don't know that it means that it's always that way, for instance. So we might think of people that fall into those categories, but the Lord may be moving or working in them to move them into that fourth category. And of course, he's done that with ourselves, so we know that that's exactly how he operates. Um, and it's, I think it's good for us to remember that. I think there's a lot that's scary about this first soil, this idea that. The seed just bounces. So we get no uptake whatsoever in this one. But the other ones, at least you get a little satisfaction that there's some kind of reception. There is a receipt of that word. And the reason why I find this one to be so troubling is because these who hear it in the first case, they don't understand and they don't esteem it. And Christ is very clear to say that the seed itself doesn't sit there long. It bounces. So there's a, there is a literal hardness. That's reflected in that clay soil or that path, which is down trotted. And it's hard because of perhaps this constant lack of belief, this constant and unrepentant hearts or lifestyle, but it would be enough if it just kinda bounced off and sat there. But the fact that it's snatched away that the birds come and take it away, that Satan himself has an active and powerful role in influencing all of those who are hearing this word. And I think that hardness of heart may not just be manifest in, say, like an unrepentant lifestyle or this kind of clench fist against God on the inside, which is of course true of the natural man. But more than that, that anything that would take us away from true belief. So that is even any kind of our religious system or belief, any kind of philosophy, any kind of other worldview I think is in mind here because we know the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And so. What he's doing in that sometimes happens first and foremost in the mind, manifested in the heart and then in our behaviors. So if he's stealing away this word by replacing it with something that is false, that is not true, that destroys, that pulls us away and moves us away, then this is very scary. He has a real power, which we talked about. I don't know, like maybe six or so episodes ago. It's worth listening to, I think. And so what I find here that is really traumatizing upfront is the involvement in particular of the sinful man under his own mean estate. That is, that it's clear that the natural man cannot conceive of the things of God without regeneration, and Jesus makes it abundantly clear. He's, he's basically saying what Paul says later on in First Corinthians when he writes, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, does not accept them. So again, there's no agreement. There's no, even an intellectual ascent does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are folly to him and he's not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one for who is understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him. But we have the mind of Christ, so there is no mind of Christ, which is, it's a horrible way to live life. And so in that space we have both the natural man, his total depravity, unable to pull himself up by his theological bootstraps or philosophical bootstraps or his intellectual emotional bootstraps to even discern what the way in which the world really actually is. And then in in, I say in addition to that, we have the devil himself waging war and attacking by pulling away that seed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I have a little bit of a different take on this and I think this is what I am looking forward to in this series. Is there, there is gonna be. [00:30:01] Understanding the Parable of the Sower Tony Arsenal: Different, uh, different understandings that probably all fall and are all compatible, but all fall within a acceptable range of understanding. Here, you know, I, in, in reading some of the commentaries, Calvin makes the point that all four of these different types of seed represent people who in some sense are open to the gospel. They're, they're open to, he, he makes the point that this is not talking about the, the person who like refuses to hear the gospel at all, who like won't even come into the church. This is a person predominantly who is, is exposed to the word in some sense, probably in view as someone who's among the people of God who's in the, in the, in the physical body of the people of God who's among Christians or among those hearing the word. And for whatever reason, the, the, the seed doesn't, uh, it doesn't even get into the soil. Right, and he compares, Christ compares, um, this not to somebody who is hardhearted, but to someone who doesn't understand, right? That there's an intellectual element to this, right? You think of, um, you know, you think of somebody who hears the scripture and probably understands outwardly what it means, but doesn't ever comprehend it internally. They don't ever really, they don't ever really let it penetrate into their, into their hearts. Um, so it's been sewn into their hearts, but it doesn't actually take root in their hearts in any other sense. [00:31:38] The Role of the Soil in Receiving the Word Tony Arsenal: And this is what's a little bit different from, from the other ones that we're gonna see in all of the other cases. The seed takes root, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: It actually penetrates the ground and begins to grow. Um, it, this is a seed that never even makes it that far. And so it may not be someone who has like a, who necessarily has like a closed fist. I hate the gospel. I hate everything about God, but for some reason they're just not. And when we say for some reason I'm talking, obviously I'm talking la you know, horizontally. Um, we know that the reason that they don't have an open heart is 'cause the Holy Spirit is not open to their heart. But for whatever earthly temporal reason, the word just doesn't penetrate. It bounces off of them. It just doesn't get there. Not necessarily because they're outwardly hostile to it. They just maybe are not interested in it. And so this is where I think that. Along with the evil one, snatching it away. That's actually like one in the same thing. Is, is part of what I think this is getting at is that the, the, the only reason that the, um, that Satan can snatch away the word from their heart or what has been sewn into their heart is because their heart has not received it. And so it's that sort of dual function and, and maybe it's kind of like, almost like, uh, in Exodus, you know, God hardening the heart and then Pharaoh hardening the heart and those two things are happening, you know, by means of concurs that God is doing it in a divine sense. I almost feel like this is an instance where kind of like the, the census or, or with job where Satan is the one who is doing it, but it's ultimately attributed to God as well. It's the hardening of the heart, but it's also the hardness of heart. Um, all of those things are playing a dynamic, but ultimately the point here is that there are those who the word is preached to. [00:33:30] The Sower's Responsibility and the Soil's Condition Tony Arsenal: Um, you know, we will find out in, in a little bit later, like, the sower is Christ in, in these parables here. It's not, it's not generally the sowing of the word. It's Christ who is sowing the word. It's the son who is sowing, uh, the seed of the word. And we can think about that either during his own ministry. This certainly was, um, was true of his own ministry on Earth, that there were some who just did not receive the word and they just, it just bounced off of them. But then also as the son sows the seed through his people, down through the church age, through history, whether it's in the Lord's Day service or personal, witnessing, personal, you know, um, evangelism, it's still God who is sowing the seed. It's still the Lord who is the sower of the seed. But even in that context, there are still some who just don't receive it. So I think what you said earlier is really, is really spot on. This parable is not about. The skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed. Right. And I think sometimes people read this and they, they look at it as though it is actually the sewer's fault. What a dumb sower. He sowed it on the path. Of course it's not gonna take root. That's not the point of the parable at all. The point of the parable, and we learn it just right, this very first one, is that it has to do with the, the soil itself. Which is why, you know, I, I kind of joke about calling it the parable of the soils, and that's a fine way to refer to it. And most of these parables could have multiple different, you know, accurate titles as well. But the point of the parable, or the main point of the parable is that the soil itself is what determines the outcome. Again, you know, we, we don't need to get into all the theological details of how the soil becomes, what the soil is. This show has the word reformed in the title. You can figure out that we're gonna say, well, God is the one that prepares the soil. And that also just fits with the, with the a parable here, right? The good soil is only good because it's been tilled and prepared by the sower ahead of time, right? So I think that's, that's spot on. And, and you know, as I think about the people I know in my life, um, it's very easy to get discouraged when you try to so seed to, to follow through on the metaphor when you try to so seed and it feels like it bounces off. But we shouldn't be surprised at that. We shouldn't be surprised when someone is just not interested because Christ in his very first parable tells us there are people out there like that. That doesn't mean you don't sow the seed, it doesn't mean you don't continue to spread the seed the way that the sower does. And the reason for that is that some of it is going to take, take root, some of it is going to take root and bear fruit and you are not in charge and you don't control which one does which. We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this, so this seed everywhere that he can. [00:36:26] The Reality of Hardheartedness Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there is something there that I think is comfortable about this hardness of the soil, because I think sometimes we underestimate that the normative position of man is to be antagonistic toward God. That's not to say like we're talking about in their every action they take, they're going to refuse to hear the gospel or they're going to fight vehemently or out outwardly against it. But it's true that everywhere we find the scriptures, whether it's this other metaphor about God, again, doing this great surgery, of taking out this height of stone, which is of course hardheartedness or whether we go to like Romans three, where Paul says that there's no one who understands, there's no one who seeks God. So we understand that the default position is, one, nobody's seeking after God. Two, that God is too threatening to us. He threatens ourself. He threatens our ego, he threatens our own way. He threatens our contingency, all of which we try to fight against, like to our own dismay. And you know, basically. You know, it's willing, suspension of disbelief. But it's interesting and I think comforting here that what he's saying is, is exactly what you've just said, which is do not he, he'd almost say like loved ones. Do not be surprised when you find that people are just not that interested. They're just not into the gospel. Because your default position is to be a gospel abuser. To be a covenant breaker. And so because of that, there's just a natural hardness. And that hardness, I think he has to draw out. He has to say it's gonna bounce and Satan's gonna snatch it away because it would be, it's too easy to look at those who are just like vehemently opposed to the gospel that wanna debate. You wanna shut you down, wanna yell at you, wanna put signs in your face, wanna spit on you. That's too easy to be like, well, of course. Those people are not gonna receive it. But what about the quiet people who just don't care? Or, yeah. What about the people who are too caught up in their way of life or their simple behaviors or their patterns, or again, just what? What about those? What about the Mormons? When they come to your door and you can speak into your blue in the face about what Paul says, like the gospel plus anything is anathema, and they're just kinda like, yes. Yeah. Totally. That's fine. Totally down with that. And you're like, yeah, but you're doing, you're doing that very thing. This is great comfort to know that even those situations where you're not at war explicitly with somebody, that it's still comforting to know that this is going to happen. And also I think it's a great reminder that apart from God, apart from that changing of the soil, as you said, Tony, we would be those same people. That's in fact where we start. I, I don't say that. Like there's a progression here. We find in the, from moving from one to four. There is though something like you've said, where it's just interesting that Jesus shows us the very kind of shades of this. And I think, again, we gotta get out of our head like the, the temporality of this or like, well, what length of time are we talking about? Like when we get to the second one, which we should move on to. And there is some sprouting of the seed. Like how much time are we talking about? Like if it's two weeks, are they in camp two, if it's three weeks, are they moved out of that into some other, one of the other schools? Uh, I think it's just to show us that there are really, again, four hearers, one believer, and we can see clearly what the one believer looks like. It's a little bit more difficult to maybe sometimes discern what the other three look like, but it gives us hope and encouragement and basically just a sense of like, this is the way the world works. To know pres positionally, that when we go out, and like you said, I love this already, this is a major theme, is speak the gospel to all people. I mean, in this way, the gospel is for all people. Because Jesus' saying, do not cast the seed here. Go and look at that narrow path and find out, try to keep it off the, the hard ground. Do not let the devil snatch it up. It just says, throw and seed, throw and seed. And so we have to keep doing that stuff. [00:40:10] The Challenge of Shallow Roots Jesse Schwamb: So let's get to number two. What, what? Yeah. What say? Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Let me read it here. This is in verse, uh, 20 and 21. Here. It says, as for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. And when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the world, immediately he falls away. So thi this is the person who, um, who has some sort of outward conversion experience, right? It's a person who receives the word, he receives it with joy, um, and appears to sprout, right? This is seed that has taken hold and has, uh, you know, the, the, and we, we can see that it has taken hold. So it's not just some hidden seed that has roots and never breaks the surface. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a plant that has made its way into the soil. It has taken roots of some sort. Um, but the roots are shallow. The roots never actually get, uh, deep enough to, to be able to survive the sun, right. In the, the original parable, it's, it's baked by the sun. And, you know, this is, um, I think what what we're gonna see is maybe to sort of preface your question, and I think probably this is gonna be one of those two parter episodes, even though we planned it to be one parter episode. Um, I think what we're gonna see here is that you can't actually know whether someone is. The hard rocks is the rocks or the thorns. Right? Un until, until all is said and done. Right. Right. And that's part of what's difficult is you, you want to look at a parable like this, and this is where I think maybe this is a good sort of like caution against overinterpreting, the parables, right? Christ is not trying to give us a rubric to identify who is what. Jesse Schwamb: Right. He's Tony Arsenal: not trying to give us like a litmus test to say like, that person is the hard soil. That person is the rocks. That person is the thorns. And you know, this reminds me, I, I recall, I, I dunno how many years ago, it was a couple years ago when Kanye West was going through his like Jesus phase, right? And he, everyone was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that Kanye is a Christian and he's writing this album called Jesus. Jesus Saves. And, and I, I just remember saying at the time, like, guys, there's a parable of the soils here. Like we should be. Um, we should be joyful that it, it appears that this seed is taking root, but there are lots of different outcomes when the seed takes root. And it's funny because I, I don't, I don't remember what episode this was and please don't go look it up 'cause that's a waste of everyone's time. But I remember when that conversation happened and I don't know whether there was an affirmation or a denial or what context came up in, but I remember contrasting him to Justin Bieber. And it's ironic, right, because I actually just read on Twitter today. Let me see if I can find the post during the next time you're talking. Justin Bieber posted this really amazing, theologically astute, mature kind of statement on Twitter today. And I think at the time, if you had asked me, um, is Kanye more likely to be the good soil or Justin Bieber to be the good soil, I would've said Kanye. Right? Just because he's, he was older, he is a little bit more established in himself. Um. Justin Bieber was still very young. He was, he was sort of like all over the place personality wise. He seemed to be changing radically. And it just goes to show like, you can't tell. And, and I'm not even saying right now like, this is, this is where it gets difficult. I'm not even saying right now, Justin Bieber is good soil, although I did right. Retweet his quote and did hashtag good soil. Almost aspirationally, right? But we can take a look at someone's life in retrospect and say, this person is bearing fruit, or this person is not bearing fruit. And, and that's really where this particular, um, type of soil goes. It's not so much the fruit, it's the sprout. And I think when we look at a situation like Kanye and, and. There's hopefully still a lot of life left for Kanye, and that means there's still hope for a con, a genuine conversion and bearing fruit that keeps with repentance that does not appear to be what had happened at the time. Right? He's gone totally off the rails at this point. So we pray for that. We hope, we hope for better things for him. Um, but. At the time, Kanye was, is he, he's going by Y now. I don't even know what to call him anymore. But Kanye was a sprout that grew up with great joy quickly. And what we found through time is that it appears that he, when he was, although maybe he fits better into the second, this next category that we'll have to push off till next week, I think. But either way, like he appeared to have sprouted, he appeared to have taken root and ultimately did not actually bear fruit. And that's the defining feature of these first three ones. It's not so much about what happens with the seed. Does it get in the ground? Does it not get in the grow? Does it sprouts, does it not sprout? It's ultimately about the fruitfulness, right? The final, the final phase of the parable, the final, um, the final type of soil is the one that produces fruit. So we'll get to that in detail, but that's what we need to think about. And again, like I said, it's not as though crisis saying like, all right, here's this checklist of ways to determine whether someone's conversion is correct, is true or not. Because we can't know that until after the fact and well after the fact. We also can't know that it's valid until after the fact. What I think this parable, broadly speaking, gets at is that we have to look at every situation and realize that there are these different possible outcomes. And although I don't know that this is explicitly part of the parable, it also sort of points us to the fact that like, because it's not a foregone conclusion about what's gonna happen, maybe there's also something we can do about it. Right? Right. Maybe when we realize someone might be on the rocky soil. Whether we, we have some reason to believe that or we just want to get out in front of that possibility, maybe there's still room to actually get in there and, and move the seed to a different soil, I guess might be a better way to use the metaphor is to, to just take the seed somewhere else or to till the soil, to get the rocks out of the soil. Although this is not talking about like rocks in the soil. It's talking about a layer, probably a layer of bedrock. Like Yes, exactly. Just under the surface. Jesse Schwamb: Right? So Tony Arsenal: there is an immutability about these, these different categories of, of people, and again, this is where like overinterpreting, the parable can get to be problematic, but we, we see that there are these categories, we can't necessarily know which one of these categories a person is in when they have some sort of outward expression of faith where they've received. I think we can tell the difference between that first category. Someone who just has not received the, the gospel at all, has not received the word of God at all, right? Like it's just bounced off of him. It's made no impact. I think we can see that that's a relatively straightforward, um, situation for us to assess. And of course we can't see someone's heart, but it's, it's usually pretty outwardly, readily available to us that they just have not received the word in any means. Right. When we get to these second two categories, that's not the case. We're talking about two different categories of people who have received the word and it has begun to sprout. It has begun, it actually has sprouted, not just begun to sprout, but it's sprouted. Um, I just think we need to be really careful to sort of not place someone in an immutable category until after we've seen what's gonna happen. Yes. Really across their whole life. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:47:41] The Importance of Deep Roots in Faith Jesse Schwamb: I'm glad you brought that up because we really have to remember that in the last three instances, you cannot tell from the soil what the outcome will be. So it is a little bit, I'm with you, kind of a misnomer in the translation. This idea of like rocky soil. Yeah. If it were truly like rocky soil, the way that probably most of us in the Western think of it like soil mixed with gravel, right? They're probably, the sewer would be like, why would I throw it on there like that? That doesn't make any sense. Certainly again, if you're looking for that, that really fertile, well tilled ground, the one that looks promising, you wouldn't do that. So more than likely, I'm with you. We're talking about like a hired limestone layer that would've been like a few inches below, and as the sun would come down, my understanding is of course, like that limestone would heat up. It'd be like the perfect warm environment for like a seed to immediately like spring up with some hope. And that's exactly I think what Jesus is after here. It's this idea that the seed springs up immediately. People receive the message with joy. There's been no root or development to deeper moist soil though, because it doesn't exist. It gets blocked out. But inci incidentally, like the heat of that rock bed actually is the thing that causes it to germinate and produce at least a sprout really, really quickly. But as soon as like any kind of other heat comes upon it, because it cannot not grow deeper because it cannot set the roots, because it cannot get enough water from deep down, then it's going to be quick to die. I think we see this all the time. Maybe we even see this to some degree, not exclusively and in the same kind of magnitude in our own lives. But you know, we may listen to a sermon with pleasure while the impression produced in us is like only temporary, short-lived. You know, our hearts can be like that stony ground. Sometimes it may yield like a plentiful cop clap of warm feelings and like good resolutions and good vibes. How often do we hear that language? But all this time, there may be no deeply rooted work in our souls. And that first like cold blast of oppression or temptation may cause like all of that to go away. What I see interpret it from this particular group and, and this the one that follows it very much the same is like a conversion to religion. So here where this is where I firmly, like, I think we have a class, and this might trigger some people, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We have a class for this to me is deconstructionism. Yeah. And I think what I've, I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind is that. I'm not sure that we have to be so concerned in this, this metaphor or this great parable about like what's the length of time here? So for instance, is it possible that somebody could be in this place where there is this hard layer of rock, which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end. Yeah, where somebody has heard the gospel message has come into the life of the church and finds that this is generally a pleasant way to believe and to live and to express these ideals until maybe they have a strong voice somewhere or they're confronted with the fact that this, their message now is not very tolerant. And so as soon as there comes against them, this push that maybe what you're saying is too exclusive, that all of a sudden there really is a manifestation that there's no real root there. Yeah, there was no conversion. There was a conversion to religious principle and ideas and insomuch as those things didn't push too much against whatever objectives they had. Not even like going after what happens in the the third instance here with all the pleasures of life and all the temptations of the flesh, but just that there is some challenge. To what they believe and that it would be continually lived out in their actual lives, meaningful enough that it would impact behavior, change their mind, and continue to make them outspoken about the thing in which they're setting their roots into that if those things would cause the death of. That sprouts, then to me, that's where we find deconstruction isn't falling. And so in that case, again, it's comforting because it's not a matter of actual conversion as it were. It's not a matter of actual regeneration that hasn't actually occurred. There's plenty of reasons to come alongside and to give the gospel some kind of favor or to give it some kind of acquiescence because it's good on its own. There are lots of things that are good about it, but the rootedness in that is not merely in the outward manifestations of all the benefits of the gospel. It is getting Christ, as we've said. Yeah. And if we're not abiding in Christ, then we will necessarily die. In fact, Christ says elsewhere when he speaks to himself that even every bad branch that does not bear fruit, the father prunes and throws away. And so here we find that happening. It's, this is traumatic, it is dramatic, but this is where I think we see oftentimes Christians really get unnerved and sometimes it really, I think, rocks them when they see people who've had, like you said, Tony, like some professional faith. And I remember us talking about Kanye, and I remember us saying like, I think you and I were cautiously optimistic. We said like, this is fantastic. God does this very thing where he transforms people. And then we see in the long term, in the long run, the manifestation of that transformation, not in just merely as sinner's prayer or some expression of knowing something about the gospel intellectually, but the living it out so that the plant itself grows up in Christ to know of his great love, and then to share and abide in that love where it bears fruit. And so here I find this again, to be just very comforting because I think we see this a lot and our nerves, a lot of Christians, but I think Christ is giving an example here to say, do not be a unnerved by this. [00:53:10] Encouragement for Sowers and Believers Tony Arsenal: Yeah, maybe one last thought and then we, we can push pause until next week when we come back to this parable. Is. I think it's, there's two words in this, um, this little, these two verses here that really stick out to me. There's the, the word immediately, right? Yes. He immediately receives it with joy. That word is repeated later on when he immediately falls away. So there is a, um, there's a, a sense of suddenness to this, to this kind of, I'm using quotation marks if you're not watching the YouTube to this quotation or this, um, conversion experience, right? I think we all know people who have kind of the slow burn conversion experience, right? That's not to say that those people may not be, um, on hard soil or rocky soil. Right. But the, the person that we're talking about in that crisis talking about is the person who hears the word and has every appearance of an outward, radical, outward conversion of joy. And then joy is the second word that that shows up here. One of the things that drives me crazy, you know, maybe just to, to riff off the, the deconstruction, um, narrative a little bit is it drives me crazy when some sort of, um, high profile Christian falls away from the faith or deconstructs or falls, you know, into deep sin and then abandons the faith or has a tragedy happened in their life and whatever reason they abandon the faith. There's this tendency particularly among, I, I think sort of. I don't know if like, there still are young restless reform Christians out there, but I think it's still a valid descriptor. Kind of like the, I'm trying not to be pejorative, but sort of like the surface level tulip is what I call them, like the five point Calvinists who like heard an RC sprawl sermon one time and think that they are like the def, they're the definition of Calvinism. There's this tendency among that demographic that when somebody falls away from the faith to act as though everything about their experience of Christianity was somehow like an act like it was a, it was a, it was a play they were putting on, they were deceiving everybody. Right. That's that's not real. It's not the, it's not the way that it actually works and, and. I think the, um, the flip side and the caution for us in that is that just because our experience of Christianity and our, our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that like it felt real and genuine and rooted for Derek Webb or for name, name your key, you know, Joshua Harris, name your big profile deconstruction person of the day. Um, there's a caution there for us and I think that's the caution here in this, um, in this, I dunno, part of the parable is. Just as this is saying, the reason that the person falls away immediately is because there is no root in them yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately falls away, right? The cause of this is because there is no route that can withstand the tribulation, the exhortation baked into this, baked maybe isn't the right word given the context, but the exhortation built into this is that we need to seek that route. Right. We don't get to determine what kind of soil we are on a ultimate level. That's God's election and his, his secret providence. But on a horizontal level, right? In our experience of things, we have agency, we make decisions. We seek to be rooted or unrooted in the gospel, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna close it with this because we've got three minutes left of a 60 minute podcast and two par two portions of the parable. We're never gonna get through. And we want to give, give it the time that it deserves. But this, this part of the parable should leave us with a sense not of fear, right? I'm not here to steal your assurance, Christian, like that's not my jam. That's not what we do here. But your assurance can only come if you're properly rooted in the promises of the gospel. Our good works. Those are valid evidences that we should consider and they, we will get, you know, as we get later on, like. Good works. The, the fruitfulness of the crop is what determines, ultimately determines its its status. Whether it was on good soil or not is proven by its fruitfulness. But when we're seeking assurance, it's be, and when we have assurance, it's because we're rooted in, in the rock, ironically, like we're rooted in Christ. And so this, this portion of the parable should drive us to that. When you ask yourself, am I the soil on the rocky ground? I hope there's an answer in there. I don't wanna be, and the answer is so, so get your roots. Go, go deep really deeply, invest your roots into the soil that is Christ. So I, I think that's a good place for us to stop. I, I know, Jesse, you're, you're furiously looking something up and I'll let you finish, but that, that was kind of the last thought I had on that before we move on to the, to the next one, next week. Jesse Schwamb: No, I just got like already excited for, for next week. Yeah. I, I think there's already so much here for us to really just, it's probably a good stop time to pause. Because the parable of the sower teaches really that that gospel call goes out to all. I think it's important for us to keep, continue to press upon that as you have already, but only those who God regenerates, that good soil are gonna receive it savingly and will bear fruit. And I think everywhere here, God is just giving us, it's just a lesson of like, this is the way that the world actually is. That that's comforting to me, that as you go out and you speak this word unreservedly, to all whom God gives you a sphere of influence, that you should know that these experience, you're gonna have each of these experiences likely. And that's okay. And also, I liked what you said, Tony, I think there's great encouragement here that it might be the soil for a time. But it also gives us like unique categories, including the one that you just enumerated for us, that there are gonna be those who have like these genuine expression of like the Christian ethos of an excitement for the gospel in some way. And yet I can't help but think of one John two 19 where John writes, they went out from us. I mean, that's wild to think about. They went out from them, but they were not of us for, if they had been of us, they would've continued with us. That's everything that's right in that section of the parable, isn't it? Like that's beautiful. It's, you can tell John was paying attention, like you said, like there's an immediate springing up. They were with us, they went out with us. But then this idea that like they can persist for a while in that state. But then like you said, it's interesting, they're bookended by an immediate conversion, but then like an immediate falling away. How many times have we heard a deconstruction story where it's just like that, where somebody says like, even if it's in childhood, they were converted in childhood, they persisted for a period of time and then something like this, they'll say something like, that's like, and then, you know, I just woke up one day and I, I realized it was all false. Yeah, like immediacy of like persisting and then there's this falling away. John King used to write, but they went out that it might be complain. They are all, not of us, but you have been anointed by the holy one and you all have knowledge. Yeah, so this is, I think so instructive to us. Like how kind of God to teach us in these ways and there is so much good stuff ahead. Part of me is sad that we couldn't get through the whole thing because that just means Tony. Like how, I mean, I guess if this is the podcast now, yeah. If we need to do this until like we die or the Lord comes, if he tarries, then I guess we'll just do parables. Yep. Until the end. Tony Arsenal: We could do a lot worse than that. Jesse Schwamb: We, we definitely could. Do, we have Tony Arsenal: done a lot worse than that probably. [01:01:01] Join the Conversation Jesse Schwamb: Listen, if you listen for any length of time, you, you know, there's wild stuff out there. You've been on the journey with us. So again, I just wanna invite everybody to come be a part of that journey. Like really, seriously, this is my sincere invitation to you all to come hang out with us by going to t.me/reform brotherhood. It's not just, we get no benefit from that except to say like, we want to interact with brothers and sisters who are tracking with this, processing with us, having great conversation about this stuff. So come hang out. And I think more than ever. This conversation about parables is like the prime time to get involved. You've ever been on the fence about, like, I always hear the podcast, Justin and Tony always say this, I always just skip by it mentally. Like, don't take it down when you're outta the car. When you're done mowing the lawn. When you're done washing the dishes, grab your phone and come join us because we, we seriously want to hear your voice and because there's so much to be said here about what we're talking about these parables, we would love for you to talk about it with us, right. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a great group. It's a lot of fun, lots of good encouragement, lots of good prayer. Um, and, and Jesse, just to not belabor the point, we are gonna come back next week. We're gonna go through the next two. Uh, we're just gonna keep going and, and maybe, we'll, some weeks we might get through two parables 'cause they're short or because they, they line up with each other, they match. Sometimes we're gonna take two or three weeks on a parable. So, um, this is a great time to get in on the series. If you have someone you know that, that is looking for a new podcast, um, it's a good time to start the show because you don't have to deal with an entire backlog and back categories of things. You can just start fresh with this parable series. So please do recommend the show. Please do come check us out in Telegram. And Jesse, until next time, honor everyone. Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal tackles the concerning theological trend of "Divine Council Theology" and its recent resurgence within Reformed circles. He offers a critical analysis of Michael Heiser's influential work and its problematic popularization by Reformed figures like Doug Van Dorn and John Moffitt. Tony demonstrates how redefining the biblical term "Elohim" to include both God and created spiritual beings in the same ontological category fundamentally undermines the creator-creature distinction essential to Christian orthodoxy. Through careful examination of systematic theological categories, communicable and incommunicable attributes, and implications for Christology, he reveals why this seemingly academic redefinition poses serious threats to biblical monotheism and classical Reformed theology. Key Takeaways Divine Council Theology, popularized by Michael Heiser and now being promoted within Reformed circles, attempts to redefine "Elohim" as a functional category that includes both God and created spiritual beings. This theological trend commits an etymological fallacy by redefining the predominant usage of "Elohim" (which refers to the God of Israel in ~2,300 of 2,600 occurrences) based on minority usages. The approach dangerously blurs the fundamental creator-creature distinction that is essential to Christian monotheism and orthodox theology. Proponents incorrectly classify divine power as a communicable attribute rather than recognizing omnipotence as an incommunicable attribute that cannot be shared with creatures. The theological system makes problematic analogies to the incarnation, showing a confused understanding of the hypostatic union and potentially opening the door to Arian implications. This theology represents a concerning return to concepts the early church fathers fought against when confronting pagan Greek thought, rather than a retrieval of biblical teaching. Departing from the "pattern of sound words" handed down through church history in favor of novel interpretations should raise significant warning flags. Key Concepts The Creator-Creature Distinction The most fundamental division in Christian theology is not between spiritual and material beings, but between the uncreated Creator and everything else that exists. Divine Council Theology dangerously undermines this distinction by placing God and created spiritual beings in the same category of "Elohim." While proponents acknowledge God as the uncreated Creator, they nevertheless insist on categorizing Him alongside angels, demons, and other spiritual entities based on shared attributes of power or function. This categorization system parallels pagan worldviews more than biblical theology, where God exists in a class of one. By defining "Elohim" as a functional category related to spiritual power rather than an ontological one, this approach inadvertently returns to a hierarchical view of spiritual beings with God merely at the "top of the totem pole" rather than in an entirely separate and unique category of existence. This framework subtly but significantly undermines biblical monotheism by suggesting God shares a fundamental nature with His creatures. Communicable vs. Incommunicable Attributes Divine Council Theology mishandles the traditional theological distinction between God's communicable and incommunicable attributes. In classical Reformed theology, communicable attributes (like love or wisdom) can be shared with creatures in a limited, analogical way, while incommunicable attributes (like omnipotence, eternality, or divine simplicity) belong exclusively to God and cannot be shared without making the creature into God. Proponents of Divine Council Theology erroneously suggest that the power denoted by "Elohim" is a communicable attribute that God shares with spiritual beings, rather than recognizing omnipotence as properly incommunicable. This misclassification creates theological incoherence: if God could truly share His omnipotence with creatures, those creatures would effectively become equal to God in power, creating the logical impossibility of multiple omnipotent beings. This confusion of categories demonstrates how this theological system fails to maintain proper distinctions that are essential for preserving the uniqueness and transcendence of God in Christian theology. Memorable Quotes "Christianity and biblical Judaism—the primary distinction is not between spiritual and matter... The primary distinction when we're talking about the most absolute line is the distinction between the uncreated creator and his creation." "Rather than rely on the safe time-tested words and concepts that have been proven and validated, and attacked and defended and have been victorious for hundreds and thousands of years... Moffitt and Van Dorn think it is smarter and safer to depart from the pattern of sound words rather than to keep the pattern of sound words because they think that they are able to look at the Bible the way basically no one ever has in the 2000 years of the church and find something they haven't." "These teachings are pagan. This is talking about returning to a world populated by spiritual beings, and God is kind of just on the highest part of the totem pole... We're just returning to something that the early church fought hard to get rid of when they came out of their pagan culture." Resources Mentioned Reformed Arsenal article series on Divine Council Theology Full Transcript [00:00:24] Introduction and Episode Setup Tony Arsenal: Welcome to episode 461 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I am Tony, and today it's just me. Hey, brothers and sisters. We had a little bit of a scheduling conflict this week, so Jesse is taking the week off and uh, it gives me an opportunity to talk about something that I've been doing a little bit of research on. [00:00:47] Affirmations and Denials Tony Arsenal: Hopefully the listener has noticed that Jesse and I have been trying to keep our affirmations and denials a little bit tighter so we can get into the meat of the episode a little bit quicker. But occasionally we do run into a denial, usually a denial, but we run into a denial that, uh, we often say this could be an episode of its own. And so today is one of those episodes. So I'm not gonna give you my normal affirmation or denial. I'm just gonna jump into it. Now this is gonna be a little bit off the cuff. I've been doing some research, so I may not have as much of the receipts as the kids say, um, as I normally would. But I am writing a series of articles on this issue [email protected]. I'll make sure to put the link to the first article in the show notes. All of the receipts are there, all of the timestamps for the podcast episodes that I'll be. Discussing your critiquing. Are there citations for research work that I'm doing? All that stuff is there. So if you're interested in digging into the meet and you're the kind of guy who, or girl who likes to nerd out in the footnotes, then head over to uh reformed arsenal.com. You'll find the series pretty quick. [00:01:56] Introduction to Divine Counsel Theology Tony Arsenal: What I wanted to talk about today, and I'm glad we have kind of a whole episode, uh, to talk about it, is a movement, uh, that has some foothold in reformed theology. Uh, it's not new, uh, it didn't start in reformed theology, but for some reason, uh, those who are within our orbits tend to be a little bit enamored by this kind of theology. I'm not exactly sure why. [00:02:19] Michael Heiser's Influence Tony Arsenal: This theology is often called Divine Counsel Theology, and it was really, um, you know, it's not entirely new even with, with this figure, but it was really made popular and sort of, um, spread about and made accessible by the late Michael Heiser. Um, part of this is because he was just a very winsome, uh, guy. He took. Sort of highfalutin academic concepts and was able to bring them down to, uh, to an understandable level, including things like ancient near Eastern context, biblical, you know, ex of Jesus Hebrew language, other ancient near Eastern languages, which of course, that's that kind of stuff is what this podcast is all about, taking difficult, sometimes technical concepts. Talking about them, translating them into kind of the language that everybody else speaks. So that project was fine. The issue is the direction that he goes with a lot of the theology. So Michael Heiser writes a book called Unseen Realms, which is seen as kind of a retrieval of the supernatural mindset and worldview of the Bible. Uh, there's a lot to be commended about that, uh, enterprise, about that intention. I do agree with part of what he has to say when he says that we've lost a lot of the supernatural context of the Bible. Um, but I think where he goes with it is a direction that we really ought not go and we'll dig into it. [00:03:43] Critique of Reformed Fringe Podcast Tony Arsenal: The reason this is coming up now is because recently there's been a series of articles and podcasts put out by a show called The Reformed Fringe. Uh, some if you're in the Telegram chat, which you can join at, uh, t Me slash Reformed Brotherhood. You've already seen some of this stuff. We've already talked about it a little bit. But the Reformed Fringe is a podcast that sort of tries to fill a space that's something like Haunted Cosmos, which we've talked about before. Um, fills sort of looking at the weird fringe kind of things in the world. Ghosts, paranormal activity, trying to explain it through a biblical, uh, lens or worldview. Again, that's a commendable. Effort. There are strange things that happen in our world that are not easily explainable or at all explainable by natural, uh, naturalistic means. And so coming to those things with the Bible as our, uh, rubric to instruct us on how the world works is a commendable thing. But again, this project, which is by and large, um, and we'll get into maybe, but by and large is just an extension of, um, Heiser's project really goes in directions that cause all sorts of problems down the road. So the podcast is, uh, run by a guy named Doug Van Dorn, who most of the audience probably hasn't heard of. I have had run-ins with Doug over the years. Um, the last time I ran into him actually was revolving around similar kinds of issues that I'm gonna be calling out today. Um, and it, it ended up with him kind of having to depart from the reform pub, uh, maybe to put it a little bit politely and, um. You know, he has, he has taken, he's theology, which was not explicitly reformed. Heiser was not a reformed guy. He had no claims to be a Calvinist in many ways. Uh, he was sort of anticon confessional in, in that he opposed not the idea of a faith statement, but he sort of purported to come to the Bible with no biases, with no tradition. He wanted to approach what he called the Naked Bible. That was actually the name of his podcast before he died a few years ago. And so what Doug Van Dorn is, has done who, uh, Doug is a claims to be a 1689 Reformed Baptist. He's a pastor in Colorado, I believe. Um, he has tried to take this divine counsel theology and bring it into the reformed world. So he comes at it with a, a slightly different angle, but for the most part, his conclusions are the same. And in many cases he just straight up steals ER's work and doesn't cite it, doesn't do much to, uh, articulate that this is not his original research. Um, so he's taken that and he's trying to bring it into the reformed world. And Heiser himself was actually quite influential when I was a, an admin in the reform pub. We would run into lots of, lots of young reformed guys. Who were really enamored with this and they really saw, he's project as sort of a return to a pure form of exo Jesus that really got at what the Hebrew was saying. And it tickled, I think, kind of an intellectual, uh, an intellectual itch that a lot of those guys had combined with sort of this desire for the new and novel, um, which is in itself can be pretty dangerous. To sort of make things a little bit more pressing, Heiser has teamed up with John Moffitt, who many of our listeners may know. Uh, he's one of the co-hosts and founders of the podcast, Theo Cast, uh, which otherwise is a perfectly fine podcast. Um, he's also a 1680 or claims to be a 1689 Reform Baptist. He's a pastor. Um, their podcast is sort of what you would get if you had, uh, and I don't mean this to be pejorative, although maybe it is a little pejorative. Theo cast is what you would get if you took r Scott Clark. Uh, you made it much less intellectual and careful, and then made it Baptist. And what I mean by that is Scott's whole project. In large part is to recover and to emphasize the law gospel distinction. Theo cast has taken that and sort of cranked it up to 11. Uh, and they have um, they have sort of moved away from a lot of the classical reform distinctions of the law itself, so they don't full on deny the third use of the law. But in practice they would say that, um, good works is no kind of evidence whatsoever for your, um, for your faith. It's no kind of evidence of your, your salvation, which of course are confessions themselves. Um, say that there is a kind of evidential value to assessing our good works within certain reason and con. So the show is otherwise orthodox. You know, I I, I recall hearing episodes where they were refuting things like EFS, um, but because of that, Moffitt brings with him sort of an air of credibility and an error in orthodoxy that, um, the show itself probably hasn't merited. If Doug just recorded, pushed, play and put it on the. I don't think there would've been too much, uh, too much of a following. He would've probably, you know, grabbed a couple people who heard it and thought it was interesting. But because Moffitt has such a following on Theo cast, he brings with him a large audience, and that makes it particularly dangerous because his name attached to it makes it more widespread. It makes it feel like it's safer. And so I think a lot of people, uh, assume that what he's saying is orthodox and good. And I think what we'll find out is, is that it's not. So I think that's enough ProGo. [00:09:10] Elohim and Its Implications Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna go ahead and, and jump into explaining kind of what the theology that we're talking about is and, and what the problems are. So this all started kicked off, uh, with a series of podcast episodes and the first episode, and again, I don't have the specific titles here. I'll put a bibliography in the show notes on this one just so you have links to all the relevant episodes. Um, this all kind of kicked off with a podcast episode called something like The History of the Word God, or something like that. And, um, basically what Moffitt and Van Dorn want to do is they wanna look at the word Elohim in the Bible, which of course is a plural noun. Uh, in Hebrew, the, the suffix, just like in English, we might add an S or an ES, um, to a word to make it plural. Or in Greek, it's usually, if it's a masculine, uh, noun, it's, it's an oi or an omicron iota that sort of always sound at the end. Um, or when we, we talk about Latin, you have, you have like, um, you add the I at the end, so we say octopi instead of octopuses or something like that. Cacti instead of cactus. Although both of those are kind of pig Latins, um, in, in Hebrew for, uh, for masculine nouns. The suffix that you add to make it plural, is that eam sound. It's a, it's an Im if you transliterate in English. So the word Elohim is a plural of the original noun El which is a proper name for a eury deity. But it came to just be the singular word for, for God. Um, and, and in non-biblical language, we would say in a God. Um, and we do see in English, there are in, in Hebrew, in the Bible, there are places where we see the singular of this. It's kind of an older form, so it doesn't show up as much. Um, but by and large when we see the word Elohim in the Bible. Something like, uh, outta 2,600 references or more than 2,600 references in the Bible. Um, the word Elohim is associated with a single, a singular noun, and it only refers to the God of Israel. What Moffitt and Van Dorn want to do is they want to take this word and they wanna define it based on the abnormal. Uh, use of it. So the vast minority, minority of cases in the Old Testament, the word Elohim refers to the gods or to a non, like what we might say is lower G God, either like the God, Baal, or some sort of collective reference to the gods, the gods of the nation, or something like that. They wanna take the fact that there is this variation in the way the word is used and sort of radically redefine how the Bible uses it. And this, this is what I call and what a lot of people would call an etymological fallacy. So what they're doing is, instead of, uh, looking at the word and defining it based on how it's used in an, in an overwhelming fashion, they're looking at sort of the etymology of the word. And then they're using the fact that there are, uh, some pretty Dr. Dramatically minority cases where the word is used in a different way and they wanna redefine it and say, in, in all or most cases in the Bible actually. This is what the word means. So they look at the word L, which from its root has something to do probably with the, with the word for power or something like that. Um, they wanna look at it. And, you know, if you read someone like Vos in Reformed dogmatics in his volume one, he talks about how when we see the name Elohim for God, it denotes or, or refers to his sort of power, his omnipotence, which is all good and fine, just like we would say Yahweh. Uh, as a proper name refers to God sort of in his covenant role. It's his covenant name, his, his intimate, familial name that he shares, uh, with his people or he reveals to his people. Elohim is a more abstract name and it refers to God's power. Usually we see it in relation to his cre creation. So in Genesis one, um, when it's God created, it's Elohim created, which is also important and relevant for, for later. So what they wanna do is they want to say that Elohim actually. What Act Elohim actually means is it's a reference to a class of beings, spiritual beings, and that that it means sort of any spiritual being that has some type of supernatural power or enhanced power, some sort of spiritual power. They do this by saying that the noun is not an ontological noun, it's actually like a noun of function. Um, so like we would say a, a good example in English would be a painter that's a noun of function. It's a title of function. It any person could be called a painter if they engage in the verbal action of painting. And so what they're saying is that any being that engages in the action of having power. Is, uh, is an Elohim. And so that would include, in narrating at least, it would include angels, demons. Uh, I, you know, I don't know that they've said this explicitly, but I, I think Heiser would've included things like ghosts, disembodied spirits, um, humans in sort of the intermediary state might be considered Elohim humans in the, in the, um, this. Life are called Elohim, uh, in some instances. So, so this is where the Divine Council theology comes from, and that comes from Psalm 82, I think, where there's this council of Elohim that, that Yahweh seems to be speaking to and deliberating with. Or you look at Joe, where the sons of God come and they sort of pulled court in God's heavenly presence. So he would say those are examples where the, the collected Elohim. God being one of the Elohim are somehow gathered in this heavenly divine counsel. Now what this does is just devastating to Christian theology is it takes God who exists in a class of one. The, the, the God of the universe is, is the only uncreated entity in all of of the world. And so when we start to talk, and this is ironic, when we start to talk about the ways to divide up the world, the ancient world, the, the pagan world tended to divide the world between, um. Between spiritual and material. So think of g Gnostics where matter was bad and spirit was good. Or even think of something like, um, the Greek pantheons, the Greek, um, Greek religion, like ancient Greek mythology. You have sort of the spirits and the spiritual world and the gods inhabit a spiritual, have a spiritual existence for the most part. And then you have the physical world where kind of people live, uh, at least while they're alive. Christianity and, and Judaism, at least Biblical Judaism. On the other hand, the, the primary distinction is not between spiritual and matter. There is of course that distinction. There are humans, which are spiritual and material. There are animals which are entirely material, and then there are angels which are entirely spiritual. And so we would say that God is spiritual. So that is a distinction in the world. But the primary distinction when we're talking about the most absolute line is the distinction between the, the uncreated creator and his creation. So what Moffitt, Moffitt and Van Dorn do is instead of observing that biblical distinction, which really all of Christian theology and Christian monotheism rests on, they wanna say that instead, the distinction is between the. Um, is between the Elohim as the sort of spiritual beings and then sort of everything else of the created world, and so they wouldn't deny that God, that Yahweh is. The uncreated creator of all things, but they would say he's an uncreated Elohim and that there is a class of created Elohim. So I don't, I don't think you have to go too far down this road to see what this does. It puts God on the same level as his creatures in at least one way. Um, and I think we'll find out later, uh, as we talk through this, actually it does it in a couple ways that are really, uh, really can be problematic as we go. And so, uh, just let me be clear if all that, if all that Moffitt and Van Dorn were saying, if, if all they said was, um, we can use the word Elohim to describe any creature. Or God that doesn't have a body. Elohim is a synonym for the word spirit. Um, that wouldn't be the wisest way to speak, I don't think. It wouldn't be the, the most, um, felicitous or safe way to talk about the distinction. But it wouldn't be controversial. There'd be nothing wrong with that. It'd just be using a different word. It'd be like if I said, well, instead of the word spirit, I'm gonna use the word bibly bop, you know? So we have. We have God who is bibly bop, and we have the angels who is bibly bop, and humans are biblio bop. And also material, again, not the safest way to talk. There's no reason to use that alternative language when the Bible gives us perfectly legitimate language. Um, but it wouldn't be a problem. But Moffit and Van Dorn go. Way past this and maybe they don't realize it. I've asked them on Twitter, I asked them to clarify. I didn't get a response. So if they are hearing this, which maybe they will, maybe they won't. If they're hearing this, I would really love to get some clarification on some of these questions because I would love nothing more than to be able to say that this was all a big misunderstanding and that actually all they're saying is that there is this spiritual existence. That, um, we can put all things that are spirit without a body or spirit with a body. We can put all those in the same category and call that category Elohim. Again, I don't think that's safe, but if that's all they were doing, that would be fine. But we see in their episodes, and I'm gonna try to grab some quotes, um, from, from some of the articles I've written. But again, go read the articles because this goes way more in depth. It's got timestamps of it. It's got links to their episodes. Don't take my word for it. Go listen to their. Words and, and check, you know, check my math on this. But what they do is they actually start to, in, in an attempt to justify why it's okay to put God in the same category as his creatures. Um, and in at least one way, they start to make some weird statements that have a lot of systematic theology, um, implications that are, are just really, really risky. So, for example, one of the ways that they try to kind of explain this, I'm gonna pull, pull the article that I wrote up here. So, great podcasting. [00:19:34] Communicable vs. Incommunicable Attributes Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the ways they start to try to do this is again, they, they wanna say they use this distinction between incommunicable and communicable attributes, right? So in, in Christian theology, classically speaking, a communicable attribute of God is an attribute that he shares or could share with. A creature and primarily we're talking, you know, we're talking about attributes that he shares with his image bearers. So something like, um, love. Love is a communicable attribute. Our love is different than God's love, but when we say love, we're talking about the same basic category of things God loves differently than we do. But love and in a human sense, and love in a, in a divine sense, are still talking about the same thing. There's a point of contact there. Um, an incommunicable attribute would be something like, um, something like eternity. Right. Eternity is not just an extended infinite sequence of time. If it was, he could share that with us. Um, but eternity or infinity is an entirely different way of existing than a creature could ever, could ever exist in divine Simplicity is another example. Um, God could not make humans simple because simplicity entails all sorts of things like infinity. Um, eternality. Um, you know, omnipresence, omni, potent, all of these things are entailed by simplicity. So God could not make a creature infinite because in order for it to be infinite, it would have to be God. Uh, God could not make a creature simple, uh, in the, in the sense of no composition of parts. Uh, because that would mean that that creature is actually God and has no composer. So, so those would be the classic, uh, incommunicable attributes and omnipotence. Is considered, although it's a little bit weird, it sort of crosses the line in some ways. But omnipotence is considered. An incommunicable attribute. God cannot share his omnipotence with a creature because you can't have two omnipotence. Um, if you have two omnipotence, then those two omnipotence cancel each other out in some sense. If God, and, and, and he has a will, God wills one thing, and then I as a creature, if he shared his omnipotence with me, somehow willed a different thing, then we would no longer be, neither of us would be omnipotent. Where this goes sideways with Moffitt and Vandorn is rather than respect omnipotence as a an incommunicable attribute, they say that the attribute or the word Elohim denotes power or might, and that is a communicable attribute. So God does give us a certain level of power. He allows us a certain level of agency. He grants that to us. Again, I'm not even sure that we would call that an an. A communicable attribute. Um, but in a sense, I guess it is. And so they say here, um, Elohim does not mean omnipotent. It means power. It's not an incommunicable attribute. It's a communicable attribute that all kinds of entities could possess. So they're saying that the word, um, the word Elohim, uh, in the Bible denotes that a. A, an entity possesses a certain kind of power or acts in a certain role of executing a certain kind of power. And that doesn't mean omnipotence. It means it means potence. It means some sort of power. And so that that wielding power attribute that. Uh, being a, being that wields power, that attribute, whatever we want to call it, however we want to phrase it, that is a communicable attribute that God shares. He communicates that attribute to all other beings in the class of Elohim. Now, let's just back that up for a second. Um, this still would mean that God has to be the creator and they don't deny that, but it would still mean that God, prior to creation. Was an Elohim in a category of one, and then somehow he created a class and because he's extended. This attribute of wielding power, say power wielder, to try to make it actually more of an attribute. He's extended this attribute of power wielder to uncreate or to created angels, demons, human spirits, whatever other spiritual entities there might be. They would bring in things like principalities, powers, they have a whole, in other, other contexts, they'll talk about this whole different bifurcation of types of spiritual beings that I think is a little speculative, but not a big deal. He extends this power wielder attribute to these created categories. And instead of this now creating a separate category of power wields who are not God, it now is uh, he expands this category of one to now include all sorts of other things, which again, as you can, you can imagine, just runs into problems. And so the, again, this, this word Elohim appears over 2,600 times, and of these instances, 230 of them refer to the God of Israel. So the idea that that. This word is not used specifically as a reference to the God of Israel, or should not be thought of as uniquely titling or almost exclusively titling God. The God of Israel just doesn't really match the data, but it's also just really poor Exogenic method. So rather than take the predominant usage and look at the context. Understanding that the predominant usage is the predominant usage. Instead, we're gonna go back and say, well, these, these minority, these 300 or so cases outside, and not even all 300 of them are used the same way, but these 300 or so cases of them not referring to the God of Israel, we're gonna use that to redefine the word. Its entirety. It's just poor. It's just poor scholarship. It's overly speculative. Um, I haven't read much of. He's work on this in the primary sources. Um, I, I would venture a guess that Heiser makes a much more robust argument than this. And this is part of the problem. When you take an already speculative, already dangerous theology and you try to pop popularize it when you just don't have the same chops that he did, uh, you end up really making some crass, simplistic arguments that just make you look a little silly. To think we can take 200 or 2,600 instances and redefine 2 20, 300 of them. By the way, it's used 300 of the times Just doesn't make any sense. So it again, if, if all we are saying is that God is spiritual and angels are spiritual and so there is some point of affinity between the two, then that would be okay. That wouldn't be a problem. Again, there's some risk in using the word Elohim in that. Sort of placeholder, but, um, that would be a semantic discussion. What they're doing is far, far deeper and far more problematic than that. [00:26:30] Systematic Theology Concerns Tony Arsenal: And so the, the other thing they do, um, that I think is really dangerous, and I don't have all of the, I haven't finished this article yet, so I don't have all of the timestamps in front of me to, to, to get there, is in attempting to justify this Moffitt, uh, in, in one of the other episodes, he turns to the incarnation as a sort of model. And so he'll say that, you know, the son of God is divine, but he's also human. And the fact that he's human, uh, doesn't therefore mean he's not also uniquely the uncreated creator. I would assume everyone hearing this who listens to this show, uh, which has done many, many episodes on Christology, it's one of our pet projects, is just throwing their listening device across the room because what Moffitt seems to miss entirely is that Christ is not, the sun is not in the category of human. Uh, sort of in a simple sense, Christ is in the category of human because he assumes to himself a second created nature. So what, what the, the analogy he's trying to draw is if the sun can be human without ceasing to be the unique one, uncreated God, then so also can, the whole trinity, I guess, can also be Elohim without ceasing to be the one uncreated God. He even goes so far as to say that there is Uncreated Elohim, and then there is created Elohim, and they're all in the category of Elohim, but because there's this commonality, we should still consider that class. And he draws that distinction or he draws the implication that. Um, there's somehow uncreated humanity in Christ, which is a whole different ball of worms that we won't get into. But in, in drawing this analogy, he sort of shows that he really doesn't understand the hypostatic union. He doesn't understand the incarnation, or if he does, he's really making a poor comparison because in the hypostatic union it's not as though the son, uh, as divinity, the son, as the one uncreated. God simply adds to himself in a raw sense and merges. Uh, he doesn't become part of the category of human without taking on a second nature. And then now we are even getting into some inconsistencies. Is human an ontological category or is that a category of function? Are there other categories of function, uh, other creatures in existence that the category of function human might fit? So I think you can see that this just is not a self consistent. Um, a self-consistent system and it leads to all these weird implications. Um, you know, and then they'll even go on to talk about how the Son is the angel of the Lord. I'm not gonna get into a lot of it here, and I agree with that thesis that the, when we see the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, in the vast majority of cases, we're probably seeing a pre-incarnate appearance of, um, of the second person of the Trinity. They go so far as to say that this is actually a sort of. Incarnation or a sort of hypostatic union of the Elohim nature. So they, they, they draw this distinction, or they draw this parallel between created Elohim and Uncreated Elohim, and they, they argue again, I think implicitly, but in some instances it's almost, it's almost explicit that the son in, in being the angel of the Lord, takes on the uncreated or takes on the created Elohim nature. It's, it's really, um, it's really problematic. So now we have the son who is, uh, sort of hypostatic united to the unc, to the created Elohim nature, and then also is hypostatic united to the human nature. Um, it, it really just gets messy and it confuses categories in a way that is not helpful. And if I'm just being frank, a lot of the younger reformed guys. And when I say younger, I'm talking, maybe I'm projecting back to when I was a younger reform guy, um, I'm talking about people in their mid twenties to maybe early thirties, right? The, the people who were maybe the second or third generation of the young restless reform guys, they didn't necessarily learn, uh, ref young restless reform theology directly from RC Sproul. You know, they weren't the first generation. Um, and, and maybe their pastors weren't the first generation, but, but maybe their pastors were the second generation and now they're learning it from their pastors. So you might think of 'em as like the third generation, to be frank, they don't usually have a great grasp on some of these systematic theology categories as part of why. Jesse and I do this podcast, and part of why we cover the same topic over and over again, part of why we're gonna go through this parable series. But when we're done, we're probably gonna go back and start over with systematic theology. We're gonna go back, we're gonna go through another confession. That's why we spent, we spent like six years going through systematic theology. And almost immediately went back to the Scott's confession and did most of it all over again because these truths need to be taught again and again and again. This is part of what Jude is talking about when he says, we have to contend for the faith. It's not just fighting with people online. It's not just polemics or apologetics. It is reteaching and handing down the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Again, and this is perhaps, and this is the last point I'll make. This is perhaps the most. Telling a reason we should be weary and suspicious of this theology. Paul, in, uh, one of the letters to Timothy, second Timothy, maybe he says, follow the pattern of the sound words that you heard from me. He's not talking about the scriptures. He doesn't say follow the sound words that I'm writing to you. He's referring to a body of doctrine sometimes. The Bible calls it the faith, right? Jude says to contend for the faith. There's this body of doctrine that is the teaching of the apostles, and it is encapsulated in this sort of set pattern of words. Erin A is called it the rule of faith or the regular fide, right? This is where we get things like the Nicean Creed or the Hanian Creed. Why we have creeds and confessions is because we don't need to reinvent the wheel and rather than rely on the safe time-tested words and concepts that have been proven and validated, and attacked and defended and, and um, have been victorious for hundreds and thousands of years, rather than rely on those. Moffitt and Van Doran think it is smarter and safer to depart from the pattern of sound words rather than to keep the pattern of sound words because they think that they are able to look at the Bible the way basically no one ever has in the 2000 years of the church and find something they haven't. I don't wanna be too bombastic. Um, I don't, I don't know either of them. Well, um, from what I can tell, what I've heard of their professions of faith, uh, they're, they're Christian believers. They love the Lord and are very confused. But these teachings are pagan. This is, we're talking about returning to a world of, of populated by spiritual beings. And God is kind of just on the highest part of the totem pole, and maybe there's a firm line between his place on the totem pole and the, the next level down. Maybe there is, um, gets a little bit less firm of a line when we're talking about Jesus, right? So there's some potential Arian implications there that the son, uh, is not the highest deity he is. He's like the father in some ways, but he, you know, in his sort of original form is like creatures in other ways. Um, we're just returning to something that the early church fought hard to get rid of when they came out of their pagan culture. When we started to see Greeks convert to Christianity, they had to figure out how do we come out of our polytheistic culture, and this is where we get the best defenses of monotheism. Jewish Christians didn't have to argue for monotheism because all the Jewish Christians already were monotheists in a biblical sense. The Greek Christians had to fight this stuff. Justin Martyr had to fight this stuff. Athanasius and the Cappadocian fathers had to fight this stuff constantly pushing back against the background Greek culture. And Moffitt and Van Dorn wanna point to that and say, see, really, they're just Greeks in disguise and in the reality is Athanasius and the cap oceans, were fighting against the theology that is making a resurgence in this divine council theory. [00:34:55] Conclusion and Call to Action Tony Arsenal: So I think that's enough for now. Please. Again, I'm writing a long series on this. I don't know how long it's gonna take. I think it's gonna be probably 10 or 13, 10 to 13 articles. It's, it's gonna be a pretty extensive project. But go read them. Go look at them, listen to their episodes, read their articles, and then you compare that to the word of God, has what I said made more sense or does what they make more sense. So I'll leave you with that. The dog is losing her mind. And uh, with that honor, everyone love the brotherhood.

In this introductory episode to their new series on the Parables of Jesus, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound theological significance of Christ's parables. Far from being mere teaching tools to simplify complex ideas, parables serve a dual purpose in God's redemptive plan: revealing spiritual truth to those with "ears to hear" while concealing these same truths from those without spiritual illumination. This episode lays the groundwork for understanding how parables function as divine teaching devices that embody core Reformed doctrines like election and illumination. As the hosts prepare to journey through all the parables in the Gospels, they invite listeners to consider the blessing of being granted spiritual understanding and the privilege of receiving the "secrets of the kingdom" through Christ's distinctive teaching method. Key Takeaways Parables are more than illustrations—they are comparisons that reveal kingdom truths to those with spiritual ears to hear while concealing truth from those without spiritual illumination. Jesus intentionally taught in parables not to simplify his teaching but partly to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy about those who hear but do not understand, confirming the spiritual condition of his hearers. The ability to understand parables is itself evidence of God's sovereign grace and election, as Jesus states in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." Parables vary in form and function—some are clearly allegorical while others make a single point, requiring each to be approached on its own terms. Proper interpretation requires context—understanding both the original audience and the question or situation that prompted Jesus to use a particular parable. Parables function like Nathan's confrontation of David—they draw hearers in through narrative before revealing uncomfortable truths about themselves. Studying parables requires spiritual humility—recognizing that our understanding comes not from intellectual capacity but from the Spirit's illumination. Understanding Parables as Revelation, Not Just Illustration The hosts emphasize that parables are fundamentally different from mere illustrations or fables. While modern readers often assume Jesus used parables to simplify complex spiritual truths, the opposite is frequently true. As Tony explains, "A parable fundamentally is a comparison between two things... The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside." This distinction is crucial because it changes how we approach interpretation. Rather than breaking down each element as an allegorical component, we should first understand what reality Jesus is comparing the parable to. The parables function as a form of divine revelation—showing us kingdom realities through narrative comparison, but only those with spiritual insight can truly grasp their meaning. This is why Jesus quotes Isaiah and explains that he speaks in parables partly because "seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). The Doctrine of Election Embedded in Parabolic Teaching Perhaps the most profound insight from this episode is how the very form of Jesus' teaching—not just its content—embodies the doctrine of election. Jesse notes that "every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election," because they reveal spiritual truth to some while concealing it from others. This isn't arbitrary but reflects spiritual realities. The hosts connect this to Jesus' words in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." This blessing comes not from intellectual capacity or moral superiority but from God's sovereign grace. Tony describes this as "the blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." The parables thus become a "microcosm" of Reformed doctrines like election, regeneration, and illumination. When believers understand Jesus' parables, they're experiencing the practical outworking of these doctrines in real time. Memorable Quotes "The parables are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit." - Tony Arsenal "Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him... And so this is like, I love the way that he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense." - Jesse Schwamb "But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. There's a blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." - Tony Arsenal About the Hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb are the regular hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, where they explore Reformed theology and its application to Christian living. With a conversational style that balances depth and accessibility, they seek to make complex theological concepts understandable without sacrificing nuance or biblical fidelity. Transcript [00:00:45] Introduction and New Series Announcement [00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 460 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. New series Time, new series. Time for the next seven years that, that's probably correct. It's gonna be a long one. New beginnings are so great, aren't they? And it is. [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: We've been hopefully this, well, it's definitely gonna live up to all the hype that we've been presenting about this. It's gonna be good. Everybody's gonna love it. And like I said, it's a topic we haven't done before. It's certainly not in this format. [00:01:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, just, um, as a side note, if you are a listener, which you must be, if you're hearing this, uh, this is a great time to introduce someone to the podcast. [00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: True. Uh, one, because this series is gonna be lit as the kids say, and, uh, it's a new series, so you don't have to have any background. You don't have to have any previous knowledge of the show or of who these two weird guys are to jump in and we're gonna. [00:01:53] Tony Arsenal: Talk about the Bible, which is amazing and awesome. And who doesn't love to talk about the Bible. [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's correct. That's what makes these so good. That's how I know, and I could say confidently that this is gonna be all the hype and more. All right, so before we get to affirmations and denials, all the good ProGo, that's part and parcel of our normal episode content. [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Do you want to tell everybody what we're gonna be talking about? [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm excited. [00:02:17] Introducing the Parables Series [00:02:17] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna work our way through, and this is why I say it's gonna take seven years. We are gonna work our way through all of the parables. Parables, [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: the [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: gospels and just so, um, the Gospel of John doesn't feel left out. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna talk through some of the I am statements and some of that stuff when we get to John. 'cause John doesn't have a lot of parables. Uh, so we're gonna spend time in the synoptic gospels. We're gonna just walk through the parables one by one. We're taking an episode, sometimes maybe two, sometimes 10, depending on how long the parable is and how deep we get into it. [00:02:47] Tony Arsenal: We're just gonna work our way through. We're gonna take our time. We're gonna enjoy it. So again, this is a great time to start. It's kinda the ground floor on this and you thing. This could really be its own podcast all by itself, right? Uh, so invite a friend, invite some whole bunch of friends. Start a Sunday school class listening to this. [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: No, don't do that. But people have done that before. But, uh, grab your bibles, get a decent commentary to help prep for the next episode, and, uh, let's, let's do it. I'm super excited. [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: When I say para, you say Abel Para, is that how it works? Para? Yeah. I don't know. You can't really divide it. Pairable. If you jam it together, yes. [00:03:24] Jesse Schwamb: You get some of that. You can say, when I say pair, you say Abel p [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: Abel. [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: And you can expect a lot more of that in this series. But before we get into all this good juicy stuff about parables, and by the way, this is like an introductory episode, that doesn't mean that you can just skip it, doesn't mean it's not gonna be good. We gotta set some things up. We wanna talk about parables general generally, but before we have that good general conversation, let's get into our own tradition, which is either affirming with something or denying against something. [00:03:54] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:54] Jesse Schwamb: And so, Tony, what do you got for all of us? [00:03:58] Tony Arsenal: Mine is kind of a, an ecclesial, ecclesiastical denial. Mm-hmm. Um, this is sort of niche, but I feel like our audience may have heard about it. And there's this dust up that I, I noticed online, uh, really just this last week. Um, it's kind of a specific thing. There is a church, uh, I'm not sure where the church is. [00:04:18] Tony Arsenal: It's a PCA church, I believe it's called Mosaic. The pastor of the church, the teaching elder, one of the teaching elders just announced that he was, uh, leaving his ministry to, uh, join the Roman Catholic Church, which, yes, there's its own denial built into that. We are good old Protestant reformed folks, and I personally would, would stick with the original Westminster on the, the Pope being antichrist. [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: But, um, that's not the denial. The denial is that in this particular church. For some unknown reason. Uh, the pastor who has now since a announced that he was leaving to, uh, to convert to Roman Catholicism, continued to preach the sermon and then administered the Lord's supper, even though he in the eyes, I think of most. [00:05:08] Tony Arsenal: Reformed folk and certainly historically in the eyes of the reformed position was basically apostate, uh, right in front of the congregation's eyes. Now, I don't know that I would necessarily put it that strongly. I think there are plenty of genuine born again Christians who find themselves in, in the Roman Catholic, uh, church. [00:05:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but to allow someone who is one resigning the ministry right in front of your eyes. Um, and then resigning to basically leave for another tradition that, that the PCA would not recognize, would not share ecclesiastical, uh, credentials with or accept their ordination or any of those things. Um, to then just allow him to admit, you know, to administer the Lord's Supper, I think is just a drastic miscarriage of, uh, ecclesiastical justice. [00:05:54] Tony Arsenal: I dunno if that's the right word. So I'm just denying this like. It shows that on a couple things like this, this. Church this session, who obviously knew this was coming. Um, this session does either, does not take seriously the differences between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology, particularly reformed theology, or they don't take seriously the, the gravity of the Lord's supper and who should and shouldn't be administering it. [00:06:22] Tony Arsenal: They can't take both of those things seriously and have a fully or biblical position on it. So there's a good opportunity for us to think through our ecclesiology, to think through our sacrament and how this applies. It just really doesn't sit well and it's not sitting well with a lot of people online, obviously. [00:06:37] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I'm sure there'll be all sorts of, like letters of concern sent to presbytery and, and all that stuff, and, and it'll all shake out in the wash eventually, but just, it just wasn't good. Just doesn't sit right. [00:06:48] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me of all the denominations. I'm not saying this pejoratively. I just think it is kind of interesting and funny to me that the Presbyterians love a letter writing campaign. [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Like that's kind of the jam, the love, a good letter writing campaign. [00:07:00] Tony Arsenal: It's true, although it's, it's actually functional in Presbyterianism because That's right. That's how you voice your concern. It's not a, not a, a rage letter into the void. It actually goes somewhere and gets recorded and has to be addressed at presbytery if you have standing. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: So there's, there's a good reason to do that, and I'm sure that that will be done. I'm sure there are many. Probably ministers in the PCA who are aware of this, who are either actually considering filing charges or um, or writing such letters of complaints. And there's all sorts of mechanisms in the PCA to, to adjudicate and resolve and to investigate these kinds of things. [00:07:37] Jesse Schwamb: And I'd like to, if you're, if you're a true Presbyterian and, and in this instance, I'm not making light of this instance, but this instance are others, you. Feel compelled by a strong conviction to write such a letter that really you should do it with a quill, an ink. Like that's the ultimate way. I think handwritten with like a nice fountain pen. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: There's not, yeah. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, that is a weighty letter right there. Like it's cut to Paul being like, I write this postscript in my own hand with these big letters. Yeah, it's like, you know, some original Presbyterian letter writing right there. [00:08:07] Tony Arsenal: And then you gotta seal it with wax with your signe ring. [00:08:10] Tony Arsenal: So, and send it by a carrier, by a messenger series of me messengers. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Think if you receive any letter in the mail, handwritten to you. Like for real, somebody painstakingly going through in script like spencerian script, you know, if you're using English characters writing up and then sealing that bad boy with wax, you're gonna be like, this is important. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, this, even if it's just like, Hey, what's up? Yeah, you're gonna be like, look at this incredible, weighty document I've received. [00:08:36] Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's very true. I love it. Well, that's all I have to say about that to channel a little Forrest Gump there. Uh, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also going to deny against, so this denial is like classic. [00:08:49] Jesse Schwamb: It's routine, but I got a different spin on it this time, so I'm denying against. The full corruption of sin, how it appears everywhere, how even unbelievers speak of it, almost unwittingly, but very commonly with great acceptance. And the particularity of this denial comes in the form of allergies, which you and I are talking about a lot of times. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: But I was just thinking about this week because I had to do some allergy testing, which is a, a super fun experience. But it just got me think again, like very plainly about what allergies are. And how an allergy occurs when your immune system, like the part of your body responsible for protecting your body that God has made when your immune system mistakes like a non-harmful substance like pollen or a food or some kind of animal dander for a threat, and then reacts by producing these antibodies like primarily the immunoglobulin E. [00:09:36] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what strikes me as so funny about this in a, in a way that we must laugh. Because of our, our parents, our first parents who made a horrible decision and we like them, would make the same decision every day and twice in the Lord's day. And that is that this seems like, of course, such a clear sign of the corruption of sin impounded in our created order because it seems a really distasteful and suboptimal for human beings to have this kind of response to pollen. [00:10:03] Jesse Schwamb: When they were intended to work and care in a garden. So obviously I think we can say, Hey, like the fact that allergies exist and that it's your body making a mistake. [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's like the ultimate, like cellular level of the ubiquity of sin. And so as I was speaking with my doctor and going through the, the testing, it's just so funny how like we all talk about this. [00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, yeah, it's, it's a really over-indexed reaction. It doesn't make any sense. It's not the way the world is supposed to be, but nobody's saying how is the world supposed to be? Do you know what I mean? Like, but we just take it for granted that that kind of inflammation that comes from like your dog or like these particles in the air of plants, just trying to do a plant stew and reproduce and pollinate that, that could cause like really dramatic and debilitating. [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: Responses is just exceptional to me, and I think it's exceptional and exceptional to all of us because at some deep level we recognize that, as Paul says, like the earth, the entire world is groaning. It's groaning for that eschatological release and redemption that can only come from Christ. And our runny noses in our hay fever all prove that to some degree. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So denying against allergies, but denying against as well that ubiquity of corruption and sin in our world. [00:11:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just have this image in my head of Adam and Eve, you know, they're expelled outta the garden and they, they're working the ground. And then Adam sneezes. Yes. And Eve is like, did your head just explode? [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: And he's like, I don't know. That would've been a, probably a pretty terrifying experience actually. [00:11:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's that's true. So imagine like you and I have talked about this before, because you have young children, adorable. Young children, and we've talked about like the first of everything, like when you're a child, you get sick for the first time, or you get the flu or you vomit for the first time. [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: Like you have no idea what's going on in your body, but imagine that. But being an adult. [00:11:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, where you can process what's going on, but don't have a framework for it. [00:11:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. So like [00:11:54] Tony Arsenal: that's like, that's like my worst nightmare I think. [00:11:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's like, to your point, 'cause there, there are a lot of experiences you have as an adults, even health wise that are still super strange and weird. [00:12:01] Jesse Schwamb: But [00:12:02] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:12:02] Jesse Schwamb: you have some rubric for them, but that's kind of exactly what I was thinking. What if this toiling over your labor is partly because it's horrible now because you have itchy, watery eyes or you get hives. Yeah. And before you were like, I could just lay in the grass and be totally fine. And now I can't even walk by ragweed without getting a headache or having some kind of weird fatigue. [00:12:23] Jesse Schwamb: Like I have to believe that that was, that part of this transition was all of these things. Like, now your body's gonna overreact to stuff where I, I, God put us in a place where that wouldn't be the case at all. [00:12:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Sometimes I think about like the first. Time that Adam was like sore or like hurt himself. [00:12:42] Tony Arsenal: True. Like the, just the, just the terror and fear that must have come with it. And sin is serious stuff. Like it's serious effects and sad, sad, sad stuff. But yeah, allergies are the worst. I, uh, I suffered really badly with, uh, seasonal allergies. When I was a a kid I had to do allergy shots and everything and it's makes no sense. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: There's no rhyme or reason to it, and your allergies change. So like you could be going your whole life, being able to eat strawberries and then all of a sudden you can't. Right? And it's, and you don't know until it happens. So [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: what's up with that? [00:13:15] Tony Arsenal: No good. [00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: What's up with that? So again, imagine that little experience is a microcosmic example of what happens to Adam and Eve. [00:13:24] Jesse Schwamb: You know, like all these things change. Like you're, you're right. Suddenly your body isn't the same. It's not just because you're growing older, but because guess what? Sins everywhere. And guess what, where sin is, even in the midst of who you are as physically constructed and the environment in which you live, all, all totally change. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: So that, that's enough of my rants on allergies. I know the, I know the loved ones out there hear me. It's also remarkable to me that almost everybody has an allergy of some kind. It's very, it's very rare if you don't have any allergies whatsoever. And probably those times when you think you're sick and you don't have allergies could be that you actually have them. [00:13:57] Jesse Schwamb: So it's just wild. Wild. [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Agreed. Agreed. [00:14:03] Theological Discussion on Parables [00:14:03] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, without further ado, I'm not, I, maybe we should have further ado, but let's get into it. Let's talk about some parable stuff. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, let's do it again. When I say pair, you say able pair. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Able. [00:14:20] Jesse Schwamb: When I say [00:14:21] Tony Arsenal: para you say bowl. [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I was trying to go with before. [00:14:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's a little bit more, yeah, but you gotta like cross over like we both gotta say like that middle syllable kind of. Otherwise it's, it sounds like I'm just saying bowl. And [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: yeah, there's no good way to chant that. Yeah, we're work. This is why Jesse and I are not cheerleaders. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: We're, we're work shopping everybody. [00:14:40] Jesse Schwamb: But I agree with you. Enough of us talking about affirmations, the denials in this case, the double double denial. Let's talk about parables. So the beauty of this whole series is there's gonna be so much great stuff to talk about, and I think this is a decent topic for us to cover because. Really, if you think about it, the parables of Jesus have captivated people for the entirety of the scriptures. [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: As long, as long as they were recorded and have been read and processed and studied together. And, uh, you know, there's stuff I'm sure that we will just gloss over. We don't need to get into in terms of like, is it pure allegory? Is it always allegory? Is it, there's lots of interpretation here. I think this is gonna be our way of processing together and moving through some of these and speaking them out and trying to learn principally. [00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Predominantly what they're teaching us. But I say all that because characters like the prodigal son, like Good Samaritan, Pharisees, and tax collector, those actually have become well known even outside the church. [00:15:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: then sometimes inside the church there's over familiarity with all of these, and that leads to its own kind of misunderstanding. [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: So, and I think as well. I'm hoping that myself, you and our listeners will be able to hear them in a new way, and maybe if we can try to do this without again, being parabolic, is that we can kind of recreate some of the trauma. In these stories. 'cause Jesus is, is pressing upon very certain things and there's certainly a lot of trauma that his original audiences would've taken away from what he was saying here. [00:16:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Even just starting with what is a parable and why is Jesus telling them? So I presume that's actually the best place for us to begin is what's the deal with the parables and why is this? Is this Jesus preferred way of teaching about the kingdom of God. [00:16:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, you know, it bears saying too that like not all the parables are alike. [00:16:35] Tony Arsenal: Like true. We can't, this is why I'm excited about this series. You know, it's always good to talk through the bible and, and or to talk through systematic theology, but what really excites me is when we do a series like this, kind of like the Scott's Confession series, like it gives us a reason. To think through a lot of different disciplines and flex like exercise and stretch and flex a lot of different kinds of intellectual muscles. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: So there's gonna be some exegetical work we have to do. There's gonna be some hermeneutical work we're gonna have to do, probably have to do some historical work about how the parables have been interpreted in different ways. Yes, and and I think, so, I think it's important to say like, not every parable is exactly the same. [00:17:14] Tony Arsenal: And this is where I think like when you read, sometimes you read books about the, the parables of Christ. Like you, you'll hear one guy say. Well, a parable is not an allegory. Then you'll hear another guy say like, well, parables might have allegorical elements to it. Right. Now if one guy say like, well, a parable has one main point, and you'll have another guy say like, well, no, actually, like parables can have multiple points and multiple shades of meaning. [00:17:37] Tony Arsenal: And I think the answer to why you have this variance in the commentaries is 'cause sometimes the parables are alleg. [00:17:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And [00:17:44] Tony Arsenal: sometimes they're not allegorical. Sometimes they have one main point. Sometimes there's multiple points. So I think it's important for us to just acknowledge like we're gonna have to come to each parable, um, on its own and on its own terms. [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: But there are some general principles that I think we can talk about what parables are. So parables in general are. Figurative stories or figurative accounts that are used to illustrate, I think primarily used to illustrate a single main point. And there may be some subpoints, but they, they're generally intended to, uh, to illustrate something by way of a, of a narrative, a fictional narrative that, uh, helps the reader. [00:18:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, or the hearer is just, it's also important that these were primarily heard, these are heard parables, so there are even times where the phrasing of the language is important in the parable. Um, they're helping the, the hearer to understand spiritual truth. And this is where I think it's it's key, is that this is not just. [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: When we're talking about the parables of Christ, right? There's people tell parables, there's all sorts of different teachers that have used parables. Um, I, I do parables on the show from time to time where I'll tell like a little made up story about a, you know, a situation. I'll say like, pretend, you know, let's imagine you have this guy and he's doing this thing that's a form of a parable when I'm using. [00:19:08] Tony Arsenal: I'm not, it's not like a makeup made up story. It's not asaps fables. We're not talking about like talking foxes and hens and stuff, but it's illustrating a point. But the parables of Christ are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit. [00:19:29] Tony Arsenal: And I just wanna read this. Uh, this is just God's providence, um, in action. I, um, I've fallen behind on my reading in The Daily Dad, which is a Ryan Holiday book. This was the reading that came up today, even though it's not the correct reading for the day. Uh, it's, it's for September 2nd. We're recording this on September, uh, sixth. [00:19:48] Tony Arsenal: Uh, and the title is, this is How You Teach Them. And the first line says, if the Bible has any indication, Jesus rarely seemed to come out and say what he meant. He preferred instead to employ parables and stories and little anecdotes that make you think. He tells stories of the servants and the talents. [00:20:03] Tony Arsenal: He tells stories of the prodigal son and the Good Samaritan. Turns out it's pretty effective to get a point across and make it stick. What what we're gonna learn. Actually that Jesus tells these stories in parables, in part to teach those who have spiritual ears to hear, but in part to mask the truth That's right. [00:20:24] Tony Arsenal: From those who don't have spiritual ears to hear, oh, online [00:20:26] Jesse Schwamb: holiday. [00:20:27] Tony Arsenal: So it's not as simple as like Jesus, using illustration to help make something complicated, clearer, right? Yes. But also, no. So I'm super excited to kind of get into this stuff and talk through it and to, to really dig into the parables themselves. [00:20:42] Tony Arsenal: It's just gonna be a really good exercise at sort of sitting at the feet of our master in his really, his preferred mode of teaching. Um, you know, other than the sermon on the Mount. There's not a lot of like long form, straightforward, didactic teaching like that most of Christ's teaching as recorded in the gospels, comes in the form of these parables in one way or another. [00:21:03] Tony Arsenal: Right. And that's pretty exciting to me. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And there's so many more parables I think, than we often understand there to be, or at least then that we see in like the headings are Bible, which of course have been put there by our own construction. So anytime you get that. Nice short, metaphorical narrative is really Jesus speaking in a kind of parable form, and I think you're right on. [00:21:25] Jesse Schwamb: For me, it's always highlighting some kind of aspect of the kingdom of God. And I'd say there is generally a hierarchy. There doesn't have to be like a single point, like you said. There could be other points around that. But if you get into this place where like everything has some kind of allegory representation, then the parable seems to die of the death of like a million paper cuts, right? [00:21:40] Jesse Schwamb: Because you're trying to figure out all the things and if you have to represent something, everything he says with some kind of. Heavy spiritual principle gets kind of weird very quickly. But in each of these, as you said, what's common in my understanding is it's presenting like a series of events involving like a small number of characters. [00:21:57] Jesse Schwamb: It is bite-sized and sometimes those are people or plants or even like inanimate objects. So like the, yeah, like you said, the breadth and scope of how Jesus uses the metaphor is brilliant teaching, and it's even more brilliant when you get to that level, like you're saying, where it's meant both to illuminate. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: To obfuscate. That is like, to me, the parable is a manifestation of election because it's clear that Jesus is using this. Those who have the ears to hear are the ones whom the Holy Spirit has unstopped, has opened the eyes, has illuminated the hearts and the mind to such a degree that can receive these, and that now these words are resonant. [00:22:32] Jesse Schwamb: So like what a blessing that we can understand them, that God has essentially. Use this parabolic teaching in such a way to bring forward his concept of election in the minds and the hearts of those who are his children. And it's kind of a way, this is kind of like the secret Christian handshake. It's the speakeasy of salvation. [00:22:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's coming into the fold because God has invited you in and given you. The knowledge and ability of which to really understand these things. And so most of these little characters seemed realistic and resonant in Jesus' world, and that's why sometimes we do need a little bit of studying and understanding the proper context for all those things. [00:23:12] Jesse Schwamb: I would say as well, like at least one element in those parables is a push. It's in, it's kind of taking it and hyping it up. It's pushing the boundaries of what's plausible, and so you'll find that all of this is made again to illuminate some principle of the kingdom of God. And we should probably go to the thing that you intimated, because when you read that quote from, from Ryan Holiday, I was like, yes, my man. [00:23:34] Jesse Schwamb: Like he's on the right track. Right? There's something about what he's saying that is partially correct, but like you said, a lot of times people mistake the fact that, well, Jesus. Is using this language and these metaphors, these similes, he speaks in parables because they were the best way to get like these uneducated people to understand him. [00:23:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right? But it's actually the exact opposite. And we know this because of perhaps the most famous dialogue and expression and explanation of parables, which comes to us in Matthew 13, 10 through 17, where Jesus explains to his disciples exactly why he uses this mode of teaching. And what he says is. This is why I speak to them of parables because seeing they do not see and hearing, they do not hear they nor do they understand. [00:24:24] Jesse Schwamb: So, so that's perplexing. We should probably camp there for just a second and talk about that. Right, and, and like really unpack like, what is Jesus after here? Then if, like, before we get into like, what do all these things mean, it's almost like saying. We need to understand why they're even set before us and why these in some ways are like a kind of a small stumbling block to others, but then this great stone of appreciation and one to stand on for for others. [00:24:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think you know, before we, before we cover that, which I think is a good next spot. A parable is not just an illustration. Like I think that's where a lot of people go a little bit sideways, is they think that this is effectively, like it's a fable. It's like a made up story primarily to like illustrate a point right. [00:25:09] Tony Arsenal: Or an allegory where you know, you're taking individual components and they represent something else. A parable fundamentally is a, is a, a comparison between two things, right? The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside, and so the idea is like you're, you're taking. The reality that you're trying to articulate and you're setting up this parable next to it and you're comparing them to it. [00:25:33] Tony Arsenal: And so I like to use the word simile, like that's why Christ says like the kingdom of God is like this. Yes. It's not like I'm gonna explain the kingdom of God to you by using this made up story. Right on. It's I'm gonna compare the kingdom of God to this thing or this story that I'm having, and so we should be. [00:25:49] Tony Arsenal: Rather than trying to like find the principles of the parable, we should be looking at it and going, how does this parable reflect? Or how is this a, um, how is this an explanation? Not in the, like, I, I'm struggling to even explain this here. It's not that the cer, the parable is just illustrating a principle. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: It's that the kingdom of God is one thing and the parable reveals that same one thing by way of comparison. Yes. So like. Uh, we'll get into the specifics, obviously, but when the, when the, um, lawyer says, who is my neighbor? Well, it's not just like, well, let's look at the Good Samaritan. And the Good Samaritan represents this, and the Levite represents this, and the priest represents this. [00:26:32] Tony Arsenal: It's a good neighbor, is this thing. It's this story. Compared to whatever you have in your mind of what a good neighbor is. And we're gonna bounce those things up against each other, and that's gonna somehow show us what the, what the reality is. And that's why I think to get back to where we were, that's why I think sometimes the parables actually obscure the truth. [00:26:53] Tony Arsenal: Because if we're not comparing the parable to the reality of something, then we're gonna get the parable wrong. So if we think that, um, the Good Samaritan. Is a parable about social justice and we're, we're looking at it to try to understand how do we treat, you know, the, the poor people in Africa who don't have food or the war torn refugees, you know, coming out of Ukraine. [00:27:19] Tony Arsenal: If we're looking at it primarily as like, I need to learn to be a good neighbor to those who are destitute. Uh, we're not comparing it against what Jesus was comparing it against, right? So, so we have to understand, we have to start in a lot of cases with the question that the parable is a response to, which oftentimes the parable is a response to a question or it's a, it's a principle that's being, um, compare it against if we get that first step wrong, uh, or if we start with our own presuppositions, which is why. [00:27:50] Tony Arsenal: Partially why I think Christ is saying like, the only those who have ears to hear. Like if you don't have a spiritual presupposition, I, I mean that, that might not be the right word, but like if you're not starting from the place of spiritual illumination, not in the weird gnostic sense, but in the, the. [00:28:07] Tony Arsenal: Genuinely Christian illumination of the Holy Spirit and inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. If you're not starting from that perspective, you almost can't get the parables right. So that's why we see like the opponents of Christ in the Bible, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, constantly. They're constantly confused and they're getting it wrong. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: And, and even sometimes the disciples, they have to go and ask sometimes too, what is this parable? Wow, that's right. What is, what does this mean? So it's never as simple as, as what's directly on the surface, but it's also not usually as complicated as we would make it be if we were trying to over-interpret the parable, which I think is another risk. [00:28:44] Jesse Schwamb: That's the genius, isn't it? Is that I I like what you're saying. It's that spiritual predisposition that allows us to receive the word and, and when we receive that word, it is a simple word. It's not as if like, we have to elevate ourselves in place of this high learning or education or philosophizing, and that's the beauty of it. [00:29:03] Jesse Schwamb: So it is, again, God's setting apart for himself A, a people a teaching. So. But I think this is, it is a little bit perplexing at first, like that statement from Jesus because it's a bit like somebody coming to you, like your place of work or anywhere else in your family life and asking you explicitly for instruction and, and then you saying something like, listen, I, I'm gonna show you, but you're not gonna be able to see it. [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And you're gonna, I'm gonna tell you, but you're not gonna be able to hear it, and I'm gonna explain it to you, but you're not gonna be able to understand. And you're like, okay. So yeah, what's the point of you talking to me then? So it's clear, like you said that Jesus. Is teaching that the secrets, and that's really, really what these are. [00:29:37] The Secrets of the Kingdom of God [00:29:37] Jesse Schwamb: It's brilliant and beautiful that Jesus would, that the, the son of God and God himself would tell us the secrets of his kingdom. But that again, first of all by saying it's a secret, means it's, it's for somebody to guard and to hold knowledge closely and that it is protected. So he says, teaching like the secrets of the kingdom of God are unknowable through mere human reasoning and intuition. [00:29:56] Jesse Schwamb: Interestingly here though, Jesus is also saying that. He's, it's not like he's saying no one can ever understand the parables, right, or that he intends to hide their truth from all people. [00:30:07] Understanding Parables and God's Sovereign Grace [00:30:07] Jesse Schwamb: Instead, he just explains that in order to highlight God's sovereign grace, God in his mercy has enlightened some to whom it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. [00:30:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's verse 11. So. All of us as his children who have been illuminated can understand the truth of God's kingdom. That is wild and and that is amazing. So that this knowledge goes out and just like we talk about the scripture going out and never returning void, here's a prime example of that very thing that there is a condemnation and not being able to understand. [00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: That condemnation comes not because you're not intelligent enough, but because as you said, you do not have that predisposition. You do not have that changed heart into the ability to understand these things. [00:30:47] Doctrine of Election and Spiritual Insight [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: This is what leads me here to say like every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election. [00:30:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, because all people are outside the kingdom until they enter the Lord's teaching. How do we enter the Lord's teaching by being given ears to hear. How are we understanding that? We have been given ears to hear when these parables speak to us in the spiritual reality as well as in just like you said, like this general kind of like in the way that I presume Ryan Holiday means it. [00:31:12] Jesse Schwamb: The, this is like, he might be exemplifying the fact that these stories. Are a really great form of the ability to communicate complex information or to make you think. [00:31:21] The Power and Purpose of Parables [00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: So when Jesus says something like The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, wow, we, you and I will probably spend like two episodes just unpacking that, or we could spend a lot more, that's beautiful that that's how his teaching takes place. [00:31:34] Jesse Schwamb: But of course it's, it's so much. More than that, that those in whom the teaching is effective on a salvation somehow understand it, and their understanding of it becomes first because Christ is implanted within them. Salvation. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:48] Parables as More Than Simple Teaching Tools [00:31:48] Tony Arsenal: I think people, and this is what I think like Ryan Holiday's statement reflects, is people think of the parables as a simple teaching tool to break down a complicated subject. [00:32:00] Tony Arsenal: Yes. And so, like if I was trying to explain podcasting to a, like a five-year-old, I would say something like, well, you know. You know how your teacher teaches you during class while a podcast is like if your teacher lived on the internet and you could access your teacher anytime. Like, that might be a weird explanation, but like that's taking a very complicated thing about recording and and RSS feeds and you know, all of these different elements that go into what podcasting is and breaking it down to a simple sub that is not what a parable is. [00:32:30] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. A parable is not. Just breaking a simple subject down and illustrating it by way of like a, a clever comparison. Um, you know, it's not like someone trying to explain the doctrine of, of the Trinity by using clever analogies or something like that. Even if that were reasonable and impossible. [00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's not like that a parable. I like what you're saying about it being kind of like a mini doctrine of election. It's also a mini doctrine of the Bible. Yes. Right. It, it's right on. [00:33:00] The Doctrine of Illumination [00:33:00] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's the doctrine of revelation. In. Preached form in the Ministry of Christ, right? As Christians, we have this text and we affirm that at the same time, uh, what can be known of it and what is necessary for salvation can be known. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: By ordinary means like Bart Iman, an avowed atheist who I, I think like all atheists, whether they recognize it or not, hates God. He can read the Bible and understand that what it means is that if you trust Jesus, you'll be saved. You don't need special spiritual insight to understand that that is what the Bible teaches, where the special spiritual. [00:33:42] Tony Arsenal: Insight might not be the right word, but the special spiritual appropriation is that the spirit enables you to receive that unto your salvation. Right? To put your trust in. The reality of that, and we call that doctrine, the doctrine of illumination. And so in, in the sense of parables in Christ's ministry, and this is, this is if you, you know, like what do I always say is just read a little bit more, um, the portion Jesse read it leads way into this prophecy or in this comment, Christ. [00:34:10] Tony Arsenal: Saying he teaches in parable in order to fulfill this prophecy of Isaiah. Basically that like those who are, uh, ate and are apart from God and are resistant to God, these parables there are there in order to confirm that they are. And then it says in verse 16, and this is, this is. [00:34:27] The Blessing of Spiritual Understanding [00:34:27] Tony Arsenal: It always seems like the series that we do ends up with like a theme verse, and this is probably the one verse 16 here, Matthew 1316 says, but blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. [00:34:40] Tony Arsenal: And so like there's a blessing. In our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and re receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation. That is the doctrine of of election. It's also the doctrine of regeneration, the doctrine of sanctification, the doctrine. [00:35:03] Tony Arsenal: I mean, there's all of these different classic reformed doctrines that the parables really are these mic this microcosm of that. Almost like applied in the Ministry of Christ. Right. Which I, I, you know, I've, I've never really thought of it in depth in that way before, but it's absolutely true and it's super exciting to be able to sort of embark on this, uh, on this series journey with, with this group. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: I think it's gonna be so good to just dig into these and really, really hear the gospel preached to ourselves through these parables. That's what I'm looking forward to. [00:35:38] Jesse Schwamb: And we're used to being very. Close with the idea that like the message contains the doctrine, the message contains the power. Here we're saying, I think it's both. [00:35:47] Jesse Schwamb: And the mode of that message also contains, the doctrine also contains the power. And I like where you're going with this because I think what we should be reminding ourselves. Is what a blessing it is to have this kind of information conferred to us. [00:36:01] The Role of Parables in Revealing and Concealing Truth [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: That again, God has taken, what is the secrets that is his to disclose and his to keep and his to hold, and he's made it available to his children. [00:36:08] Jesse Schwamb: And part of that is for, as you said, like the strengthening of our own faith. It's also for condemnation. So notice that. The hiding of the kingdom through parables is not a consequence of the teaching itself. Again, this goes back to like the mode being as equally important here as the message itself that Christ's teaching is not too difficult to comprehend as an intellectual matter. [00:36:27] Jesse Schwamb: The thing is, like even today, many unbelievers read the gospels and they technically understand what Jesus means in his teaching, especially these parables. The problem is. I would say like moral hardness. It's that lack of spiritual predilection or predisposition. They know what Jesus teaches, but they do not believe. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: And so the challenge before us is as all scripture reading, that we would go before the Holy Spirit and say, holy Spirit, help me to believe. Help me to understand what to believe. And it so doing, do the work of God, which is to believe in him and to believe in His son Jesus Christ and what he's accomplished. [00:37:02] Jesse Schwamb: So the parables are not like creating. Fresh unbelief and sinners instead, like they're confirming the opposition that's already present and apart from Grace, unregenerate perversely use our Lord's teaching to increase their resistance. That's how it's set up. That's how it works. That's why to be on the inside, as it were, not again, because like we've done the right handshake or met all the right standards, but because of the blood of Christ means that the disciples, the first disciples and all the disciples who will follow after them on the other hand. [00:37:33] The Complexity and Nuances of Parables [00:37:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've been granted these eyes to see, and ears to hear Jesus. And then we've been given the secrets of the kingdom. I mean, that's literally what we've been given. And God's mercy has been extended to the disciples who like many in the crowds, once ignorantly and stubbornly rejected God and us just like them as well in both accounts. [00:37:49] Jesse Schwamb: So this is, I think we need to settle on that. You're right, throughout this series, what a blessing. It's not meant to be a great labor or an effort for the child of God. Instead, it's meant to be a way of exploring these fe. Fantastic truths of who God is and what he's done in such a way that draw us in. [00:38:07] Jesse Schwamb: So that whether we're analyzing again, like the the lost coin or the lost sheep, or. Any number of these amazing parables, you'll notice that they draw us in because they don't give us answers in the explicit sense that we're used to. Like didactically instead. Yeah. They cause us to consider, as you've already said, Tony, like what does it mean to be lost? [00:38:26] Jesse Schwamb: What does it mean that the father comes running for this prodigal son? What does it mean that the older brother has a beef with the whole situation? What does it mean when Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed? How much do we know about mustard seeds? And why would he say that? Again, this is a kind of interesting teaching, but that illumination in the midst of it being, I don't wanna say ambiguous, but open-ended to a degree means that the Holy Spirit must come in and give us that kind of grand knowledge. [00:38:55] Jesse Schwamb: But more than that, believe upon what Jesus is saying. I think that's the critical thing, is somebody will say, well, aren't the teaching simple and therefore easy to understand. In a sense, yes. Like factually yes, but in a much greater sense. Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful that he quotes Isaiah there because in that original context, you the, you know, you have God delivering a message through Isaiah. [00:39:17] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. The people are very clear. Like, we just don't believe you're a prophet of God. And like what you're saying is ridiculous, right? And we just don't wanna hear you. This is very different than that. This is, Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him, not necessarily hear, but all, all who are hear Him, I guess rather, but not necessarily all who are listening with those spiritual ears. [00:39:33] Jesse Schwamb: And so this is like, I love the way that he, he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here. Because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense. [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, I'm going to be speaking to you in code and half of you have the key for all the code because the Holy Spirit is your cipher and half of you don't. And you're gonna, you're gonna listen to the same thing, but you will hear very different things. [00:40:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think is, is interesting to ponder on this, um. [00:40:12] The Importance of Context in Interpreting Parables [00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: God always accommodates his revelation to his people. And the parables are, are, are like the. Accommodated accommodation. Yeah. Like God accommodates himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. And in some ways this is, this is, um, the human ministry of Christ is him accommodating himself to those. [00:40:38] Tony Arsenal: What I mean is in the human ministry of the Son, the parables are a way of the son accommodating himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. So there, there are instances. Where the parable is said, and it is, uh, it's seems to be more or less understood by everybody. Nobody asks the question about like, what does this mean? [00:40:57] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then there are instances where the parable is said, and even the apostles are, or the disciples are like, what does this parable mean? And then there's some interesting ones where like. Christ's enemies understand the parable and, and can understand that the parable is told against them. About them. [00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So there, there's all these different nuances to why Christ used these parables, how simple they were, how complicated they were. Yes. And again, I think that underscores what I said at the top of the show here. It's like you can't treat every parable exactly the same. And that's where you run into trouble. [00:41:28] Tony Arsenal: Like if you're, if you're coming at them, like they're all just simple allegory. Again, like some of them have allegorical elements. I think it's fair to look at the, the prodigal son or the, the prodigal father, however you want to title that. And remember, the titles are not, generally, the titles are not, um, baked into the text itself. [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: I think it's fair to come to that and look at and go, okay, well, who's the father in this? Who's the son? You know, what does it mean that the older son is this? Is, is there relevance to the fact that there's a party and that the, you know, the older, older, uh, son is not a part of it? There's, there's some legitimacy to that. [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: And when we look at Christ's own explanation of some of his parables, he uses those kinds, right? The, the good seed is this, the, the seed that fell on the, the side of the road is this, right? The seed that got choked out by the, the, um, thorns is this, but then there are others where it doesn't make sense to pull it apart, element by element. [00:42:21] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other thing is there are some things that we're gonna look at that are, um. We're gonna treat as parables that the text doesn't call a parable. And then there are some that you might even look at that sometimes the text calls a parable that we might not even think of as a normal parable, right? [00:42:38] Tony Arsenal: So there's lots of elements. This is gonna be really fun to just dig stuff in and, and sort of pick it, like pull it apart and look at its component parts and constituent parts. Um, so I really do mean it if you, if you're the kind of person who has never picked up a Bible commentary. This would be a good time to, to start because these can get difficult. [00:42:59] Tony Arsenal: They can get complicated. You want to have a trusted guide, and Jesse and I are gonna do our, our work and our research on this. Um, but you want someone who's more of a trusted guide than us. This is gonna be the one time that I might actually say Calvin's commentaries are not the most helpful. And the reason for that is not because Calvin's not clear on this stuff. [00:43:17] Tony Arsenal: Calvin Calvin's commentaries on the gospel is, is a harmony of the gospels, right? So sometimes it's tricky when you're reading it to try to find like a specific, uh, passage in Matthew because you're, you, everything's interwoven. So something like Matthew Henry, um, or something like, um, Matthew Poole. Uh, might be helpful if you're willing to spend a little bit of money. [00:43:38] Tony Arsenal: The ESV expository commentary that I've referenced before is a good option. Um, but try to find something that's approachable and usable that is reasonable for you to work through the commentary alongside of us, because you are gonna want to spend time reading these on your own, and you're gonna want to, like I said, you're gonna want to have a trust guide with you. [00:43:55] Tony Arsenal: Even just a good study bible, something like. The Reformation Study Bible or something along those lines would help you work your way through these parables, and I think it's valuable to do that. [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: Something you just said sparked this idea in me that the power, or one of the powers maybe of good fiction is that it grabs your attention. [00:44:15] The Impact of Parables on Listeners [00:44:15] Jesse Schwamb: It like brings you into the plot maybe even more than just what I said before about it being resonant, that it actually pulls you into the storyline and it makes you think that it's about other people until it's too late. Yeah. And Jesus has a way of doing this that really only maybe the parable can allow. [00:44:30] Jesse Schwamb: So like in other words, by the time you realize. A parable is like metaphorical, or even in a limited case, it's allegorical form you've already identified with one or more of the characters and you're caught in the trap. So what comes to my mind there is like the one Old Testament narrative, virtually identical, informed to those Jesus told is Nathan's parable of the You lamb. [00:44:52] Jesse Schwamb: So that's in like second Samuel 12, and I was just looking this up as you were, as you were speaking. So in this potentially life and death move for the prophet Nathan confronts King David. Over his adultery with, or depending on how you see it, rape of Bathsheba, and then his subsequent murder of her husband Uriah, by sending him to the front lines of battle. [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: So he's killed. And so in this parable that Nathan tells Uriah is like the poor man. Bathsheba is like the Yu a and the rich man obviously represents David. If you, you know what I'm talking about, go back and look at second Samuel 12. And so what's interesting is once David is hooked into that story, he cannot deny that his behavior was unjust as that of the rich man in the story who takes this UAM for himself and he, which he openly. [00:45:38] Jesse Schwamb: Then David openly condemns of course, like the amazing climax of this. And as the reader who has. Of course, like omniscient knowledge in the story, you know, the plot of things, right? You're, you're already crying out, like you're throwing something, you know, across the room saying like, how can you not see this about you? [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: And of course the climax comes in when Nathan points the finger at David and declares, you are the man. And that's kind of what. The parables due to us. Yes. They're not always like the same in accusatory toward us, but they do call us out. This is where, again, when we talk about like the scripture reading us, the parable is particularly good at that because sometimes we tend to identify, you know, again, with like one of the particular characters whom we probably shouldn't identify with, or like you said, the parable, the sower. [00:46:22] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't the Christian always quick to be like, I am the virtual grounds? Yeah. You still have to ask like, you know, there is not like a Paul washer way of doing this, but there is like a way of saying like, checking yourself before you wreck yourself there. And so when Jesus's parables have lost some of that shock value in today's world, we maybe need to contemporize them a little bit. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I, and I think we'll talk about that as we go through it. We're not rewriting them for any reason that that would be completely inappropriate. Think about this though. Like the Jew robbed and left for dead. And you know the story of the Grace Samaritan may need to become like the white evangelical man who is helped by like the black Muslim woman after the senior pastor and the worship leader from the local reformed church passed by like that. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: That might be the frame, which we should put it to try to understand it whenever we face a hostile audience that this indirect rhetoric of compelling stories may help at least some people hear God's world more favorably, and I think that's why you get both like a soft. And a sharp edge with these stories. [00:47:20] Jesse Schwamb: But it's the ability to, to kind of come in on the sneak attack. It's to make you feel welcomed in and to identify with somebody. And then sometimes to find that you're identifying entirely with a character whom Jesus is gonna say, listen, don't be this way, or This is what the kingdom of God is, is not like this. [00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: Or again, to give you shock value, not for the sake of telling like a good tale that somehow has a twist where it's like everybody was actually. All Dead at the end. Another movie, by the way, I have not seen, but I just know that that's like, I'll never see that movie because, can we say it that the spoiler is, is out on that, right? [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: Are we, what are we talking about? What movie are we talking about? [00:47:56] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I don't, I don't wanna say it. I didn't [00:47:57] Tony Arsenal: even get it from your description. Oh. [00:47:59] Jesse Schwamb: Like that, that movie where like, he was dead the whole time. [00:48:02] Tony Arsenal: Oh, this, that, that, that movie came out like 30 years ago, Jesse. Oh, seriously? [00:48:06] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. All right. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: So Six Sense. [00:48:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That movie came out a long time ago. [00:48:10] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not like the parables are the sixth sense, and it's like, let me get you like a really cool twist. Right. Or like hook at the end. I, and I think in part it is to disarm you and to draw you in in such a way that we might honestly consider what's happening there. [00:48:22] Jesse Schwamb: And that's how it reads us. [00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's a good point. And, and. It bears saying there are all sorts of parables all throughout the Bible. It's not just Jesus that teaches these, and they do have this similar effect that they, they draw you in. Um, oftentimes you identify it preliminarily, you identify with the wrong person, and it's not until you. [00:48:45] Tony Arsenal: Or you don't identify with anyone when you should. Right. Right. And it's not until the sort of punchline or I think that account with Nathan is so spot on because it's the same kind of thing. David did not have ears to hear. [00:48:58] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Until he had That's good point. Ears [00:49:00] Tony Arsenal: to hear. [00:49:00] Jesse Schwamb: Good point. [00:49:01] Tony Arsenal: And he heard the point of the parable. [00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: He understood the point of the parable and he didn't understand that the parable was about him, right? It's like the ultimate, I don't know why you're clapping David, I'm talking about you moment. Um, I'm just have this picture of Paul washer in like a biblical era robe. Um, so I think that's a enough progam to the series. [00:49:20] Preparing for the Series on Parables [00:49:20] Tony Arsenal: We're super excited we're, we'll cover some of these principles again, because again, different parables have to be interpreted different ways, and some of these principles apply to one and don't to others, and so we'll, we'll tease that out when we get there next week. We're gonna just jump right in. [00:49:34] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna get started with, I think, um, I actually think, you know, in the, the providence of, of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and then obviously the providence of God in Christ's ministry, the, the parable that kind of like frames all of the other parables, right? Is the parable of the sower In many ways, the parable of the sower is this doctrine we're talking about in parable form, right? [00:49:57] Tony Arsenal: It's that some people have ears to hear and they receive the parable. Some people don't. So we'll tease all that out. And you know what some of these parables have? Parallels in other gospels. Um, we may not cover all of the parallels. We may say the, you know, the, the sower, the parable of the sower doesn't have much nuance. [00:50:18] Tony Arsenal: And I'm just using this as an example 'cause I haven't really gotten there yet. But we may say like, yeah, well the parable in the sower in Matthew, there's not much in Mark's account or Luke's account that gives us a shade of meaning and it's not worth doing its own episode Sometimes I think we're gonna see that actually. [00:50:33] Tony Arsenal: The different variations and the different um. Shades of meaning that are are given in other accounts is worth spending one episode on. Sometimes we're gonna go through a parable. It's gonna be one episode. Sometimes we're gonna have to camp out on a parable for many episodes 'cause it's just that dense theologically and textually. [00:50:51] Tony Arsenal: So make sure you're tuning in. Make sure you've got your Bible and your commentary handy. [00:50:56] Engaging with the Reformed Brotherhood Community [00:50:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, jump into the telegram chat. If you're, if you're not a part of the Telegram chat t me slash reform brotherhood. Tell us what you think. Tell us when we get it wrong. Tell us when we get it right. Um, share with us how this series is helping you. [00:51:09] Tony Arsenal: How, how what you need from us, what we can do to better help you understand the scripture. Um, we really, really want this series to be something that's useful for you. I know it's gonna be useful for me and Jesse and we would do the show even Right on if nobody listen to it. That's right. Because we both get such spiritual benefit out of these, these. [00:51:26] Tony Arsenal: The prep and the discussion, um, but tell us what's useful to you as well. We really want to hear that. [00:51:32] Jesse Schwamb: Right. That's right on. I'm glad you said that because I was thinking we should give the listener, if they have ears to hear a little heads up on, because we've got four gospels, three predominantly, which you're gonna find some glorious repetition that we're going to hit some of the things, same things from slightly different perspectives 'cause God has given us that to do. [00:51:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right. So we'll be looking at a parable, but we might also be asking at times, but does it parallel? So we'll also be asking that from time to time and that might feel like, are we take, why are we taking so much time and going? Because it's all there in the scriptures. Loved ones like to sit in this and you all know by now that like our style is the crockpot. [00:52:08] Jesse Schwamb: It's low and slow. So we are going to hang out at a speed that allows us, I think, to really steep in all of what God is giving us to learn here. And so the best way you can hang out with us, and I hope you will hang out with us. Is take the advice Tony just gave you. It's good advice and that is just go to t me slash reform brotherhood that will kick you over to a link in the Telegram app, which is basically a giant group chat and we have our own little court and to off part of the world, I guess it's the own little reform brotherhood speakeasy, except like there's no secret knock. [00:52:41] Jesse Schwamb: You can just come in and then interact. There's a bunch of different channels there, or discussion threads. One of them is reserved just for episodes. So if you hear something and you have a question or you wanna see what everybody else is thinking about that or talking about, because what I love about it is that it's mostly people having their own conversations. [00:52:57] Jesse Schwamb: Just like you and I are having a conversation right now. It's other voices being brought in. So don't just take our word for it, like, come, come in and hang out. I got stuck there because don't take our word for it. Isn't that like an old LaVar Burton quote from like reading Rainbow. [00:53:13] Tony Arsenal: Uh, do you know Reading Rainbow? [00:53:15] Tony Arsenal: I do know Reading Rainbow. That doesn't seem right. Take a look. Maybe it is. It's in a book. Yeah, take a look. It's in a book. It's a book. It's, it's reading. Reading Rainbow. [00:53:23] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was good. I thought it was like, you know, don't take my word for it. Anyway, all that to say, come hang out. And if you have this burning question, like how is it that this podcast just shows up all the time, weekly. [00:53:37] Jesse Schwamb: How is it that it's free of charge? When doesn't it seem like, wow, this is just so good. The segues are so cunning, the, the banter is so beautiful, like surely this must be, or her, surely I should be paying for this. Well, guess what? No, you're never gonna pay for it because there are brothers and sisters who give to the podcast to make sure that it continues to go out into the world. [00:54:00] Jesse Schwamb: And to sound okay and allows us, as we give towards it, to make sure that it's free for you. So if you're feeling like you'd like to do something about that, honestly, if you've been listening for a while and you thought, you know what? I have a little bit. I would love to give one time or a small amount regularly. [00:54:15] Jesse Schwamb: We are so grateful for those who give because truly that's what keeps it going and going online instead of just Tony and I talking over the phone about this, this stuff, which, which we would do and we would [00:54:25] Tony Arsenal: do. [00:54:26] Jesse Schwamb: Well. So if you're interested in that, uh, you can do us all a favor and go to patreon.comReform Brotherhood, and there's all kinds of information there on how to give last, very last. [00:54:39] Jesse Schwamb: If you are just listening to us for the first time. Or maybe you've just joined the Reformed Brotherhood, you got into Telegram Chat and you're like, there are other episodes. There are other episodes, and if you can't find them in your podcasting app, a really great way to go and search one down to track down a particular topic. [00:54:56] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, love one. There's, there's 459 over that many hours. Of us just talking online about all kinds of topics. We've probably talked about something related to the question you have or the thing you're just thinking about, or maybe you're just like, what do these two weird guys have to say about this? [00:55:11] Jesse Schwamb: Just go to reform brotherhood.com. All of the episodes are living out there. They're waiting for you. They, they want you to listen to them and just interact. You could take a whole year and more just listening to a single episode a day. You still wouldn't be caught up yet to where we are right now, so that, that's a challenge. [00:55:26] Jesse Schwamb: Some have been with us that long, Tony. [00:55:27] Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's true there. There have been people that have listened to more than 460 hours of us, which is. Wow. I'm not sure it's an honor. I guess like, I'd like to thank the academy, uh, and all of the people who made this possible. But yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy. [00:55:47] Tony Arsenal: There's a lot of our voices out there on the internet and there are a lot of people who've been with us from the beginning. So if you do wanna check it out, uh, you can go to reform brotherhood.com. There's an episode, um, there's an episodes tab. Uh, you can search for a topic. You can just scroll through until you see a, a subject that, uh, catches your fancy. [00:56:06] Tony Arsenal: And you can listen to it there on the website. The best way to listen to the show is to subscribe through your favorite podcast app, something like Apple Podcasts or Podcast Pod catcher Podbean. Pretty much any app you find on your app store that has the word pod in it is gonna be able to get our show, uh, and that that would be great if you would subscribe. [00:56:24] Tony Arsenal: It does a, it makes a big difference. Uh, in terms of you being able to get the show on time and know that it's coming, uh, please do check it out and subscribe and leave a rating. If you are on a podcast platform that has a rating option, we would love to hear what you think. Uh, we do read all those ratings and we take the feedback seriously. [00:56:41] Tony Arsenal: Uh, we would really appreciate that. [00:56:44] Conclusion and Encouragement for Listeners [00:56:44] Jesse Schwamb: What have we learned on this episode? I think we've learned something about, or come to appreciate maybe in a renewed way, the power of the narrative. How the teaching that Jesus brings us in the parables have so much pregnant meaning both in the message and the mode in which they're delivered to us, they ra in are enshrined in all of this great theological content. [00:57:04] Jesse Schwamb: And there's gonna be so much then for us too. Eat and feast on because they're, for us, they're a blessing for God's people. And a secret message, as it were for those who have the spiritual predilection and the spiritual predisposition that is for those who have been regenerate. So more than just like, can I get more knowledge? [00:57:26] Jesse Schwamb: I think as you encouraged us early on in this episode, Tony, they are a blessing for us to renew and strengthen our faith, to give us great encouragement, to draw us closer to Jesus, to love God more and better and to appreciate and enjoy him. So you're got a warning, love ones strap in block up 'cause we've got a lots of parables ahead. [00:57:49] Jesse Schwamb: And you know how it goes when I say para, you say [00:57:53] Tony Arsenal: ball. Well, on that note, Jesse, we'll have to, we'll have to workshop that a, anybody out there's got better rhythm than me and Jesse can figure that out. That'd be great. Uh, on that note, Jesse, I'm super stoked. I'm really excited. The sooner that we get this episode done, the sooner our episode can start for the next one. [00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: So until then, Jesse, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

n this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb dives into a theological exploration of work as an extension of Christian calling that extends far beyond paid employment. Building upon their previous discussion about vocational choices for Christians, Jesse addresses the question: "Does a Christian's work ever cease?" Through careful examination of Ephesians 2:8-10 and other passages, he argues that while the nature of our work may change through different seasons of life—including retirement, caregiving, or illness—God has prepared good works for believers to walk in throughout their entire earthly journey. The episode offers both theological foundations and practical guidance on how Christians can approach all forms of labor as worship, finding purpose and meaning in every season of life. Key Takeaways Good works are not the basis of salvation but its goal—Christians are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), not by works, yet they are saved for good works that God has prepared in advance (Ephesians 2:10). The Christian's work never ceases but changes form—Whether in paid employment, retirement, caregiving, or even during illness, God has prepared meaningful work for believers in every season of life. All work has spiritual value when done unto the Lord—The Reformed tradition elevates all forms of work, not just paid employment, as having potential to glorify God. Prayer is a significant and valuable form of work—Even those who cannot engage in physical labor can participate in the vital spiritual work of intercessory prayer. Good works offer multiple benefits to believers—According to the Westminster Confession, good works manifest gratitude to God, bolster assurance of faith, encourage other Christians, adorn Christian doctrine, silence critics, and glorify God. Christian workers should be distinctively different—Believers can stand out in the workplace by being fair and committed, genuinely caring for others, demonstrating generosity, remaining calm under pressure, and being authentic about their faith. Finding our identity in Christ transforms our approach to work—When we place our ultimate treasure in heaven rather than earthly gain, we can approach our labors with greater peace, purpose, and freedom from anxiety. Elaboration on Key Points The Christian's Work Never Ceases but Changes Form Jesse challenges the modern Western notion that work is merely a season of life that eventually ends with retirement. Instead, he presents a more ancient and biblical perspective: that work never ceases but merely takes different forms throughout our lives. Using Paul's metaphor of "walking" in the good works God has prepared (Ephesians 2:10), Jesse explains that our journey continues throughout life, with the landscape changing as we move through different seasons. Whether we're in paid employment, caring for loved ones, serving in retirement, or confined to a bed during illness, God has prepared meaningful work for us to do. Even those who are physically limited can engage in the vital work of intercessory prayer, which Jesse describes as "the kind of work that is so glorious... that while it exhausts us, it exhausts us in a way that brings us the greatest kind of sleep or refreshment." This perspective eliminates the anxiety many Christians feel about the purpose of their later years and affirms the ongoing value of their contributions to God's kingdom regardless of their physical capacity or economic productivity. Good Works Offer Multiple Benefits to Believers Drawing from the Westminster Confession of Faith, Jesse outlines six significant benefits of good works in the Christian life. First, good works manifest our gratitude to God for the gift of His Son—they become tangible expressions of thankfulness for salvation. Second, they bolster assurance of faith by providing evidence of God's work in our lives. Third, good works encourage other Christians toward greater acts of Christ-centered love, as we witness the transforming power of the gospel in one another. Fourth, they adorn the doctrine of God our Savior, making abstract theological truths visible and attractive to others. Fifth, good works silence critics who devalue biblical Christianity by demonstrating its positive impact. Finally, they glorify God by displaying His transformative work of love in our lives. These benefits apply to all forms of work—paid or unpaid—and give eternal significance to even the most mundane tasks when done unto the Lord. As Jesse emphasizes, "There are no mundane things. There are no small works... There are just these small things that come alongside with the great work that God has done already in our lives." Memorable Quotes "Good works aren't bad when they're seen as the goal of salvation, not its ground. The goal, because it's worthwhile to want to worship God and to obey him by doing good works." "Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together in everything that we do." "When we are performing this work for God, he assures our faith. He refreshes us in it. He exhausts us in the best possible way so that we might love him more, cherish him more, encourage one another more, and really come to understand his character more forthrightly."   Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together and everything that we do. [00:00:32] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 459 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where the tulip never wilts. Hey, brothers and sisters. [00:00:48] Recap of Previous Episode [00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: So in this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, this solo episode, I'm gonna wrap up a conversation that Tony and I just had in the last episode and set us up, wet Your Appetite for a whole brand new series. [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's gonna be starting in the next episode. So you find yourself bookended by two really great things. One, a great conversation we just had about the Christian and work. Are there jobs that really Christians shouldn't have? Because it takes us away from what it means to serve the Lord vocationally, as strange as that sounds. [00:01:22] Jesse Schwamb: So if you didn't hear that, you're gonna wanna go check that out before you listen to me, wrap all of us up right now. In fact, here's what you should do. Stop everything you're doing, unless it's operating a vehicle or a backhoe. Power those things down. Get off the side of the road, then go to reformed brotherhood.com and you can find all of the episodes living out there that we've ever recorded, including the one from last week, and I believe will be greatly blessed by hanging out with some of those conversations. [00:01:49] Jesse Schwamb: So go and do that first. [00:01:51] The Christian's Work and Retirement [00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: On this episode, I'm gonna talk a little bit as a follow up about. Does the Christian's work ever cease? Is there a time, because we just spoke about vocational work and work for which we're remunerated, where once that goes away, what happens next? Is it a different kind of work? [00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: Is it no work? Should we be the kind of people that are trying to pursue an end to that remunerated work as quick as possible? Is that okay? What happens if we can't be compensated for our work anymore? What happens? We're gonna reason from the scriptures a little bit more about work, our calling and all of that by way of vocation. [00:02:26] Jesse Schwamb: And part of this conversation has actually come from a larger conversation. So one of the greatest and best things about this podcast, something I wanna boast in right now, because it has nothing to do with Tony or me, and that is. There are lots of people listening, brothers and sisters from all over the world who gathered together and debrief. [00:02:47] Jesse Schwamb: Talk about the episodes, hang out and talk about life, share funny stories, share prayer requests, support one another. And you can do that by joining our little group on a messaging app called Telegram. So in fact, here's the second thing you should do. If you go to T Me Reform Brotherhood one more time, T Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, slap that bad boy in your favorite browser, and that'll give you a link to our little corner of this messaging app. [00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: And there's a channel within that app just to talk about. The various episodes as a way of interacting with all of us, and as a result of the episode that we recorded last about this idea of vocational work and calling, how does that all come together? Brother Joshua posed an excellent question, which is in part the reason for the conversation I'm about to have with you all, and that is what happens. [00:03:33] Jesse Schwamb: When we retire, or what happens when we desire to set aside sufficient resources if we can, so that we can get to that place as soon as possible. What then what about work or what if we have to care for a sick, sick, loved one? Or what if we have to come and take responsibility for our family in a different or unique way that takes us away from work where we're not being paid for things in the same way anymore? [00:03:52] Jesse Schwamb: What happens then? So we are going to get to all of that on this little brief little episode that's gonna sit in between the end of our conversation on work and the beginning of our brand new series, which, you know, you want me to tell you what it is, but I'm not gonna do it. It's just not gonna happen on this episode. [00:04:09] Jesse Schwamb: So you're just gonna have to sit in that anticipation waiting. Waiting for it to come next week, but for now, let's talk a little bit more about work. [00:04:17] Good Works and Salvation [00:04:17] Jesse Schwamb: And let me start with a, a phrase that's like so obvious, but you can say it with me if you want, because we have to agree on this. At least that good works aren't bad. [00:04:27] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, good works aren't bad. They're good. By definition it seems like self-reinforcing. And as Christians, we should want to do those good works. Now, I haven't said what the good works are, haven't even explained really. Although we, Tony and I talked about this before, how they really fit into that pattern and that normative behavior of the Christian life. [00:04:44] Jesse Schwamb: But can we just agree that if the Bible is saying there are good works for us to do, then they must be good. And they must be there for a purpose. They must be there for a reason and we can't debate that. Just because we're not saved according to our works doesn't mean that we shouldn't be concerned about pursuing a life of joyful obedience to God's word. [00:05:01] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is why Jesus like emphatically states in the gospel. If you love me, you'll keep my commandments in obedience. However frail it is. However much we stumble, however feeble we are in actually executing it is our evidence. Our love for God and for his son Jesus Christ. So far from undermining the gospel of grace, good works are the perfect compliment to the gospel, and this is why good works are good. [00:05:29] Jesse Schwamb: So to be clear, good works are bad when they're seen as the basis of salvation. And I think if you've been with us for any length of time or you're familiar with the reform. Theological movement. If you've been steeped in the scriptures, you're gonna find that kind of compulsion, that pull that says like, well, I understand that when I use my good works as a means of somehow Meritoriously earning my salvation, they cease to be good. [00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: This is why, of course, Jonathan Edwards called Good works of this nature, only glittering sin because they're, they have no power to redeem. They have no power to save. They have no power to. Transition yourself into some kind of a righteous sense or rubric. It's impossible. They will not do that. They do not serve that purpose. [00:06:12] Jesse Schwamb: A person is not saved by works, but by God's grace through faith in Christ. [00:06:17] The Role of Good Works in Christian Life [00:06:17] Jesse Schwamb: So this is the time where we have to love ones. Go to Ephesians chapter two. It's impossible for me to continue without at least sharing this good news. If you need to hear this again, and this may be a well rehearsed verse or a well rehearsed writing from the Apostle Paul to you, but I ask that you hear it again. [00:06:32] Jesse Schwamb: If you can with these ears that are unstopped, that are almost fresh with excitement for this really good news, this is what Paul writes to the church and Ephesus for. By grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works so that no one may boast. [00:06:51] Jesse Schwamb: For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. I mean, there's so much there that is. Lovely and refreshing. And freeing. It's not works righteousness, it's not meritorious. Salvation is clearly not of our own doing. It's not the result of these works, even the faith through which we receive salvation is a gracious, gracious gift from God. [00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: So what a just burden taken off of our shoulders. The mantle has been removed from us. To somehow even equate or think that, well, if I have a good day and I've done a lot for God, he must love me more. I must be more ingratiated towards him, even if I have the sense that. I feel closer to him. Hopefully that closeness is the sense of joy and obedience. [00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: And now where we get the sense that, well, because I've done something for God, he ought to do something for me or me more favorably disposed towards me. All of that is nonsense and that way just. Total foolishness and madness lies. Instead, when we turn that into our rejoicing first for the faith itself by which we receive from God, that grants us access to this great salvation. [00:08:02] Jesse Schwamb: When we see that as a gift first, then all of this other mongering for responsibility and trying to placate through the things that we can do and having this sense of guilt in our minds about what we should have done or what we did not accomplish, or even if in our own obedience toward Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, we've fallen short. [00:08:20] Jesse Schwamb: We can still find there is this gift for us and the gift of salvation is ours in Christ through faith, not by works. It's very, very clear in what Paul writes to the church here as fallen creatures, even our best efforts are completely laced with sin. This also is, by the way, a really great kindness of God that we can never really be contrite enough in our coming before him and, and even in our humility, we probably can never be humble enough. [00:08:47] Jesse Schwamb: So the fact that God accepts because of Christ us into the family of God without having to put upon us this burden that you must be sorry enough for your sin, or you're not repentant enough, you haven't expressed the severe and necessary amount of contrition to really placate and understand that you have cosmically committed treason against the all powerful God of the universe. [00:09:13] Jesse Schwamb: Who could stand underneath that kind of weight. And the answer is no one, but by the grace of God through Jesus. So it's amazing. That when we start to think about work, what we find is that God is first doing all of the work in us, and we see that the first work is not our work, but his work, the secondary work, this means of obedience, of showing, our gratitude of expressing praise and worship. [00:09:37] Jesse Schwamb: Must, I think, necessarily be manifest in work that is labor of some kind, because God has first expressed himself in that kind of labor. And second, he's given it to us to do as an experience into his very being and his character, but also in service to him and to those who are around us. I promise I'm getting to all of this good stuff about what does this practically mean, but all this I think is so necessary for us. [00:10:02] Jesse Schwamb: To really set the proper understanding for what it means to have good work to do and to do this work. So these good works provide no basis for boasting because they're utterly worthless to save. They have worth in other ways, but it just turns out they're worthless In this way. It's a bit like if you take your, take your, whatever your domestic currency is, whatever the currency you, you transact in, I live and hang out in the United States, so my currency is the US dollar. [00:10:24] Jesse Schwamb: If I take a bunch of dollars with me and I go travel almost anywhere else in the world. There's a small chance they'll be accepted. And I realize I've picked the wrong currency for this metaphor at this point, but if I let, let's say, let's just pick a different one. Let's say that you live in Zimbabwe or you just happen to have a bunch of Zimbabwean dollars hanging out in your pocket. [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I'm sure some of you do, and you take that currency and you come to the United States and you wanna go buy something, those dollars will not work. They just won't work. Nobody will accept them. They're worthless. They're without value. Now, do they have value? In a certain sense, of course they do. In that domestic currency, in that homeland they do. [00:10:59] Jesse Schwamb: And in the same way, though, of course, slightly different here, our works are these expression of. Obedience of love for God. But the minute we try to exchange them for salvation, what we're gonna find is God says that's worthless here. And it again, is a fool's errand to build your entire life on some kinda system or belief that says, what I'm doing is earning these dollars, making these good works, performing these things. [00:11:22] Jesse Schwamb: So I'll have gathered to myself all of this currency, which I'm then going to use to buy my salvation now, I think even in my own ears, that sounds ridiculous to say, and yet so many of us. Get caught up in that. And if we don't get caught up in whole, we sometimes get caught up in it peace wise, because again, we have a sense that, well, if I've been a particularly good Christian today, doesn't that mean that God is more happy with me? [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: And Paul says, no, you have been saved as a gift of God. It is his gracious act that through faith you have been given salvation, and that faith was not of your own. That itself as well was a gift. It's gift upon gift upon gift. And so even the work itself is shaped. By the sense that all that God gives us and him doing all the verbs is his gifting. [00:12:09] Jesse Schwamb: So good works are gonna provide no basis for boasting because they are worthless to save. And the only foundation for salvation is Christ, we're saved by his works, not ours. If you're looking for that good, that first, that perfect work, the thing that you could latch onto, the thing that you would say this, I'm gonna hang my hat. [00:12:27] Jesse Schwamb: And all of my life on the work that you're looking for is not the one that you can accomplish. It is the one that Jesus has already done on your behalf. So that's why I always think when I see those W wait, they're not as prevalent anymore I suppose. But do you remember a time loved ones when like the ubiquity of the WAJD bracelet and I always thought about the question, what would Jesus do? [00:12:49] Jesse Schwamb: And to me, the answer I give now somewhat tongue in cheek is everything and it's already been done. And so that is really the promise. The great blessing of the gospel that now we are saved for works and boy does that preposition make a difference. Like we should be underlining that, like putting that gilded gold in our Bibles like we are saved now for God works good, works are not bad then when they're seen as the goal of salvation, not its ground. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: I wanna say that again because I think that might sound a little bit funny to some, but I've long really come to cherish this idea that it is the goal but not the ground. The goal, because it's worthwhile to want to worship God. And to obey him by doing good works. And Paul gives us an avenue in which to travel and to understand this and to reason it from the scripture so that we can be confident that that's exactly what God intends for us. [00:13:37] Jesse Schwamb: And so again, while these good works aren't meritorious salvation, they are a necessary component of Christian faith. And the first important thing that we ought to mention here. Is that when we think about work, it's not that like the reform tradition, that that theological perspective has somehow elevated work for remuneration. [00:13:55] Jesse Schwamb: I, I don't think that entirely was the whole emphasis of talking about vocation in that kind of theological sphere. That is, we have a bunch of Christians and they have to do work to survive, and some of them are cobblers and of them are cooks and some of them are cleaners. And so what we really need to do here is make sure that people understand that whatever you're getting paid for God has made you to do. [00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: And that is not a great thing. That's all true, but the goal wasn't just to elevate that style or type of work that is the work for which you get compensated. It was to elevate all work, all work of every kind, all labor of every kind, because God is big enough that every bit of labor paid or unpaid in direct service for somebody. [00:14:34] Jesse Schwamb: Fortunately, there is no compensation or in service to someone for which there is that all of that work. It does give God glory if we mean it to. And so this is why they do all things. Whatever you do, whether you eat or whether you drink, all of even these tiny things roll up into this argument from the lesser to the greater all of work is for God's glory. [00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: And so to tip my hat a little bit here, then I think an answer to, to Brother Joshua's question, and in a nice compliment to what Tony and I were talking about last week, there is no end to the Christian's work. There's just different types of work. Oh, we'll get to that. I'm a little bit ahead of myself here. [00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: But of course we find in Ephesians two, it's important to understand this because there's so much of the dynamic of good works in the Christian life that are being explained there. And of course we learn that good works are the result and not the cause of being new creations, and they're testifying to the fact that we have been redeemed. [00:15:24] Jesse Schwamb: So our lives might reflect craftsmanship and character of God. So amazing, isn't it? That God has given work, that work is not a four letter word, that labor is good labor of all kinds. Is good because it's reflecting the craftsmanship in character of God in unique ways. That is like apart from doing work from this work which God has called us to, from traveling in it through our lives and participating in all kinds of different work, that there's something that would be missing in our exemplifying, the craftsmanship in character of God. [00:15:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so we see that apart from Christ. We can do nothing that pleases God, but in Christ. And here's a great promise. We are created to perform God honoring acts of obedience in Christ. We can be confident that God accepts our weak and wobbly efforts. You know, Paul further goes on to talk about good works, a result of God's pattern for the Christian life. [00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: We don't need to wonder what God requires from us. He's told us in his word, good works are deeds done in conformity to God's word. Now the beauty of that is. That we have this pattern for the Christian life in which Paul is saying, and I think this is really helpful for our conversation, that all of the things that God has given us to do, he's already prepared. [00:16:39] Jesse Schwamb: He's already me and plus it. He's already set the table for us. He's already put all the things in place. He's already organized all the details. And he says that because he's done that we are now free to walk in them. And I interpret that walk as this idea, which I think is very particular to the way that Paul is writing here. [00:16:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a word of encouragement that is speaking of more of a marathon and rather a sprint. So of course, like a lot of times in the West, we think of our work as a season of life in which we're doing something in service for a company and for others, creating value, which is good. All of these things can be in service to God, of course, especially when they're in honoring. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: With a full counsel of the scriptures and that when we do those things, that time will end and then we start to think about what work do have left. Whereas really, of course, a more ancient way of thinking about work was that it never ceased. It was of different kinds, and we know it was of different kinds because of this idea of walking that is like you never says stop the walk. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: It never says take a break. It says you're gonna continue throughout your life in this metaphor of. Your journey of life being a walk, and as that walk changes, as the landscape undulates, as you move and transverse over different geographies on this walk in this metaphor, there's no doubt that the work will be different. [00:17:50] Jesse Schwamb: And there may be a season when you no longer have to work and be compensated, but it doesn't mean, of course, that the work ends. In fact, the work is still there. It's a different kind. And we don't want it to go away, in fact, and we don't want it to feel, uh, like it should be a, a lesser thing because it's not because we've been given in this verse the sense that this is the pattern that's been given to us. [00:18:12] Jesse Schwamb: It's the value of walking the pathway of obedience. And Paul makes it manifold. In fact, the Westminster Confession of Faith, which I'm 17 minutes in and you can mark your clock. That's the first time I mentioned it. I've gotten there already. Loved ones. Don't worry, we're always gonna bring in a confession. [00:18:27] Encouragement and Assurance Through Good Works [00:18:27] Jesse Schwamb: And on this week, it's the confession of faith from the Westminster states that there are at least six benefits of good work. So here these out, this is just my quick rundown of what the Westminster puts forward thinking about these good works and when you hear these benefits. Think about them in the broadest way. [00:18:41] Jesse Schwamb: That is like, think about how these benefits apply to all kinds of work, not just like your nine to five, but like of course your family society and the church and your work there is needed both because it is an exemplification of obedience to Christ, but also because it is accomplishing good and creating value. [00:18:58] Jesse Schwamb: So the first is that good works manifest our gratitude to God for the gift of his son. Now think about this. If that's true, that this in a concrete way. No matter what, we're able to do that we, if we're doing these good works, we're showing gratitude to God. Why would we ever want those good works to go away? [00:19:14] Jesse Schwamb: Why do we wanna break that pattern? We don't want to. And again, this gives a, a high level, a high calling to all the things that we can do, both like again, in our paid work and then thereafter. Or even if we, we never have paid work that all of these things, there's something for us to do here and it manifests our gratitude to God and the gift of his son. [00:19:32] Jesse Schwamb: The second thing is good work's, bolster assurances of faith. So it is the Christian who in obedience to Christ has a compulsion is as Paul would say elsewhere, hemmed in by the love of God to work towards a specific end in love and service toward others. That is a good work. And when we're doing that good work, there's a mutual kind of reinforcement that occurs that as we humble ourselves before God and that we work to. [00:19:57] Jesse Schwamb: Or to obey him and that we walk in the good works that he has prepared for us, that we find that we are sure that God is who he is, that his character and craftsmanship is, is in fact manifest in us and demonstrated by us. And in this way as we worship him, we find that our faith grows. Especially perhaps when we're called to do things that are difficult or we're called to participate in work, especially in the church, that requires some kind of leap of faith and we're in so doing where we must trust God forthrightly. [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: We find that doing those good works bolster our assurance of faith. Number three. Good works are a means of encouraging other Christians toward greater acts of Christ-centered love. There's so much in Hebrews chapter 10 that we could talk about there. This is an incredible idea that when we work towards obeying God laboring on his behalf in all of the spheres of life, to which he has given us to participate in that Christians receive this as a. [00:20:55] Jesse Schwamb: Form of encouragement. You know, think about how you've seen the testifying work of somebody else in your church, in their patience, in their kind behavior. You know, we often speak about a person who is graceful, and by that of course, we mean there's a beauty to their outer movement, as it were. That's maybe they're a graceful dancer. [00:21:11] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe they're a grace or a baseball player, but you'll find that you can apply this word in so many ways whenever you are trying to really show that somebody in their outward movements does things particularly well, or just with ease or in a way that conveys a certain kind of beauty. When we say that somebody is gracious, what we essentially mean is that there's a beauty to their inner movement that is, that the exemplification of who they are in Christ is so firmly rooted in solid, that the way they behave in situations and circumstances clearly shows. [00:21:43] Jesse Schwamb: That there's something different about the way that they process the world and in the way that they work. And when we see that we are prone to be encouraged to see that God is real, that he does intervene and interact in situations that he does, in fact still do the most miraculous thing ever, which is take the sinner, take the gospel abuser, take the unregenerate, and perform that surgical movement. [00:22:05] Jesse Schwamb: Where that heart of stone is replaced with one of flesh, it's the greatest miracle in the entire universe. And so when we're seeing that work exemplified, we're allowing ourselves to participate in encouraging our brothers and sisters. Fourth good works are concrete avenues for adorning the doctrine of God, our savior in life, in ministry. [00:22:25] Jesse Schwamb: So again, it's uniting this idea of who we are, that we say we are, who we are in our transformation regeneration, marrying that up with work. And this is, again, why a. All of this reform of theology elevates work to this place of saying, whatever you do, you can do it to the glory of God and you ought to, you ought to be thinking that way because this is the way God intended all the things that we do to be done. [00:22:47] Jesse Schwamb: So idea of like when Paul says, like, pray without ceasing, be constantly in the Lord. I think in some ways what he's saying is. When you shift your mindset to recognize that there are no mundane things to do because God has prepared all those things ahead of time, they're, they're mundane, maybe in their smallness, in our own like really myopic kind of human natural man perspective. [00:23:06] Jesse Schwamb: They are certainly not mundane with respect to the power of love that may be communicated in them with the encouragement that flows out of them, and with the expression of gratitude for God, our savior and his son. All of those things are high and lifted up worthy of exaltation and call worthy of all of our efforts. [00:23:23] Jesse Schwamb: And so there we find that there are really no mundane things. There are no small works as it were. There are just these small things that come alongside with the great work that God has done already in our lives and our expression of that first work that he has done. So Fifth Good Works, silence critics who devalue the goodness of biblical Christianity. [00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: You know, there's a lot here that we could talk about. Jesus was so outspoken about what it meant for his followers to adorn themselves to be in Christ, and in so doing, they were gonna be these lights set on a, like a city on a hill for all to see. And sometimes as Christians, we get a little, eh, strange about this kind of thing, don't we? [00:24:01] Jesse Schwamb: Because we, we wanna be careful that we need to be humble. You know, we, we want to make sure that as we're serving God, that we are not boasting in that in any kind of way, and yet there is something here where we ought to be giving and testifying to why we do certain things. I've been thinking about this a lot because I think it's one thing for us to say, well, we wanna live in such a manner. [00:24:21] Jesse Schwamb: We wanna do our work in such a manner, whatever that is, so others know there's something different and, and this is noble and honorable. I think what's even better is to let them know why it's different. Sometimes you shouldn't wait for somebody to ask. You know, if it's clear that you're doing something and you wanna express why we're doing it, say, I'm, I'm doing this 'cause Jesus loves me, he's changed me, and Jesus loves you. [00:24:39] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is okay to say loved ones. And I think in doing that, making that connection clear, what it's gonna do is it's going to make sure that those who would say like the, the Bible is antiquated out wounded document. It's a document that's filled with strife. It's a document that pits won't people against one another. [00:24:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's a document that is not progressive enough. What they'll find instead is. When our good works, our truly good works are accompanied by a verbal testimony of why we do these works in obedience to God for, because of his great love for us. It will discredit those who would say all of those things. It turns away a. [00:25:14] Jesse Schwamb: All of the critics would say that the Bible is, is not relevant, that Christians are too, uh, bigoted, that we are the kind of people that are too hypocritical. Instead, when we acknowledge that we are far from perfect, but that we have a perfect savior when we talk about our weak faith, but that our, the faith that we have is not in its size, but in the size of the savior. [00:25:34] Jesse Schwamb: When we can say all these things alongside of our efforts to be obedient. Being humble, asking for forgiveness, seeking repentance from those whom we hurt, that in this way, we are again doing all of the things that are the theology of the cross, that even in our small weaknesses, even in our great failures, what we find is God does more than just to fill in the gaps He overflows with through the power of His Holy Spirit into a powerful testimony into the lives of others with whom we interact, and especially in the things that we do. [00:26:05] Jesse Schwamb: So six. And lastly, this is from the Westminster. These benefits of good works. Last Good works glorify God by displaying his work of love in our lives. I think we often forget about this. That God has given us work because he loves us. Of course, God is always working. There's something beautiful about the fact that God is ever present in our lives working in our hearts. [00:26:29] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes of course, as the, the older reformers have said, he lays us over the Anil, as it were, and he hammers on us, and those are painful times. And other times he's really polishing up our sharp edges or sanding off those places where we need a little bit of attention. But everywhere he's working in us and what a blessing that he never stops, isn't it that he comes to us constantly because he loves us. [00:26:51] Jesse Schwamb: He refuses to leave us in a state that is less than the abundant life. Now we know that we will never accomplish that, this side of glory. But what a benefit that God never gives up on us. That he continues to show his great love for us in how he attentively comes into our lives to hone us in this progressive sanctification, whereby his work doesn't stop. [00:27:13] The Unending Nature of Work [00:27:13] Jesse Schwamb: And so because his work doesn't stop. Neither does ours. So the beauty of this is for anybody else, for us, for brother Joshua, for those who are thinking about, you know, what if I, I want to maybe try to set aside more resources now so I can stop my work of re of compensation to do other things, I would say. [00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: Well, Godspeed by, by the power of God, I, I hope that happens for you. And what about those who would say, well, my work is gonna have to be caring for a loved one who's ill? I would say that is great and good work. What about those for who are retiring now or thinking about retirement? What's left? Tons. Of good work. [00:27:48] Jesse Schwamb: I think we know this. Now, what about for those who are in the final stages of their life, those who are not ambulatory, maybe those who are weak, maybe those who are ill themselves. There is still good work because the work that God gives us is not the heavy kind that causes our bodies or our minds to be crushed in despair, to have to till the ground as it were in such a way that it leaves us lacking replenishment instead, even for those. [00:28:16] Jesse Schwamb: Who are saying, what is my place when my body is wasting away? [00:28:21] The Value of Prayer in Our Work [00:28:21] Jesse Schwamb: When I'm having a, a season of sickness and I feel like there's nothing I can do, there is so much that the church needs from you in particular, especially your work in prayer. And again, I think we've been outspoken. Prayer is absolutely a work. [00:28:34] Jesse Schwamb: If you don't believe me, just. Try to pray. So just being able to participate in something like that, which is in many ways maybe the greatest calling. I, I always think about this phrase, when we work, we work, when we pray, God works. And so just the act of saying I'm gonna devote myself in prayer, in intercessory prayer for my church, for my community, for my family, is a kind of work that is unparalleled. [00:28:58] Jesse Schwamb: And so if that's the work that God has given you to walk in right now. Then would you please do it? Because it is the season to which he's called you because he's with you on that journey. And Paul says, wherever you go, wherever you are walking, God has already prepared before you get to the next stop sign, before you get to the next wave point, before you get to the next pin drop. [00:29:17] Jesse Schwamb: God has already prepared for you good works, and you're mealing to walk in them. [00:29:22] Finding Joy and Refreshment in Labor [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And so the work of prayer by itself is the kind of work that is so glorious, like all the work of Christ that we find refreshment and it changes. There's a theme here, like all of our work changes because when we are doing it onto the Lord, we're doing it with him in mind when we're understanding that this is our obligation, but also our greatest privilege, that while it exhausts us. [00:29:41] Jesse Schwamb: It exhausts us in a way that brings us the greatest kind of sleep or refreshment. Does that make sense? We ever had like a really great day at work where, you know, I, I worked hard and I did work worth doing, and in that I felt that there was a sweetness. In fact, Ecclesiastes five 12 says, sweet is the sleep of a laborer, whether he eats little or much, but the full stomach of the rich man will not let him sleep. [00:30:05] Jesse Schwamb: This idea that. Why as we work, as we labor for God, that he does restore us, he gives us joy and satisfaction in that work. And again, there's this, all this mutual reinforcement, this kind of self-fulfilling and reinforcing idea that. When we are performing this work for God, he assures our faith. He refreshes us in it. [00:30:24] Jesse Schwamb: He exhausts us in the best possible way so that we might love him more, cherish him more, encourage one another more, and to really come and understand his character more forthrightly. [00:30:34] Living Quietly and Minding Your Affairs [00:30:34] Jesse Schwamb: I like what Paul says in one Thessalonians chapter four, aspire to live quietly and to mind your own affairs. I mean, that's. [00:30:42] Jesse Schwamb: Good advice for all of us, mind your own affairs and to work with your hands as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one. So we talked before about what it means, that really in our work, we ought to care for those who we love. We ought to make sure that we can provide for them, but there will also be seasons. [00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: One, there will be others who need to provide for us. And so in so doing, again, we're honoring God by walking in this path that he has given us, uh, to do. I like this. There's a couple of other great verses I think that are helpful for us to really think about what it means to have good work to do and to understand that good work. [00:31:17] The Blessing of Giving [00:31:17] Jesse Schwamb: Here's from Acts chapter 20. Paul says, in all things I've shown you that by working hard in this way, we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus. How He himself said, it is more blessed to give than to receive. So think about that there. There is an expression right there about work and what is this working hard. [00:31:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's to help the weak and to remember the words of Lord Jesus Christ. It is more blessed to give, to receive than to receive. Love always leads to giving for God. So love the world that he. Gave, and I think part of this good work that God calls us to is just giving. And so like right now, you may be in a season where you are giving of your labor in return for compensation, for that labor, but presumably there will, and there should come a time when you'll be giving it and you'll not be receiving that. [00:32:00] Jesse Schwamb: But it doesn't lessen the work. It doesn't take it away. It doesn't mean that it's not necessary anymore. We ought to continue to pursue that because love always leads to giving. Now I want to just finish our short little time together today as we've reasoned, hopefully. [00:32:15] Practical Ways to Exemplify Christian Values at Work [00:32:15] Jesse Schwamb: In a profound way from the scriptures helping us to be encouraged in this work by just a couple of things that if you are thinking in the sense of what can I do right now in my work of all kinds to exemplify and to be driven by unique view of humanity and a love rooted in the wisdom of the cross to stand out, what, what can we do as Christians, practically speaking. [00:32:37] Jesse Schwamb: To take everything that Paul has just given us here, appreciating this beautiful pattern that work is just gonna be part of our lives forever. And by the way, loved ones I, I have a strong conviction that in the new heavens and new Earth, that work will still be present there in a fully orbed and fully expressed, fully realized way that it's not capable today because of everything being mined by sin. [00:32:59] Jesse Schwamb: But then we're gonna find that this is just like an amm bush. It's the taste that. The thing that's coming for us, the appetizer of how work is gonna be fully satisfying, fully encouraging, fully joyful, and a full expression of how God has made us to do things. One of those things again are laboring in prayer, laboring on the construction site, laboring on a desk, laboring in the education and the teaching and ammunition of children. [00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: All of these things are just really, really good. So what are a couple of things that we can do? Well, here's some things that that come to my mind. The first is that I think Christians can be known as the most care fairing and committed kind of people. So. Think about it this way, driven by the father's love and his acceptance of us through Jesus, we can be the kind of people that are known as fair, caring, and committed to others. [00:33:52] Jesse Schwamb: Since we know the depths of our own sin and the magnitude of God's grace to us, we can be ready to forgive and reconcile with others, and we should be quick to do so if we're doing that in their work environments. Whatever that environment is, there's no doubt this is gonna draw some fair amount of attention. [00:34:07] Jesse Schwamb: We may actually, and this is gonna sound a little bit wild. We may even have opportunities to take risks for the benefit of others. Now imagine it this way. Let's say that everybody has somebody to whom they're responsible and almost everybody else has somebody who's responsible to them. So think of it this way, if you are leading any kind of group of people, formerly or informally, you may have a unique opportunity to take risks on the behalf of those people. [00:34:30] Jesse Schwamb: Now, that may be may mean advocating for them. It could mean yielding to them, even if you have a hierarchical position that's above them. But more than anything, it could mean that you actually take a risk to take responsibility at times. So it's possible that let's say you're a leading a team and you're a place of work, and one of the people who is responsible to you, that is one of the people who reports to you, makes a mistake. [00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Let's say that the person that you are responsible to, your boss finds out about this. There's lots of ways you could go about this. Now, you may feel that you want to be easy just to say, well, this wasn't me. It was their fault. But consider how a Christian might approach this in love. It's possible that it may be entirely appropriate for that leader to take responsibility for the mistake, not taking blame for it, but taking responsibility for it as an act and expression of what it means to be fair, caring, and committed to others. [00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: And now this may mean that if you were that person, you might lose a little bit of cloud to the organization. You might use a little bit of reputation or ability to maneuver within the organization, but there could be a very powerful, could be testimony in your ability to risk yourself for others in a way that I believe, again, is walking in this path of good works and that you are reasonable people. [00:35:41] Jesse Schwamb: You can sort out, I think in a situation like that. What kind of responsibility you might have, but I think it's important for us to consider that we may have that kind of responsibility and that to be known as fair, caring and committed to others. To advocate for them to again, forgive and to reconcile, and then sometimes to take risks of opportunity for the benefit of others is something that is unique to the Christian. [00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: I think we at least agree on that, that kind of response to a s. We'll be wholeheartedly unique. [00:36:06] Generosity and Kingdom Living [00:36:06] Jesse Schwamb: I think we also need to be known as generous and depending on the context and opportunity, generosity at work can be expressed in so many different ways. Managers can be generous with their advice, their access, their investment in people. [00:36:17] Jesse Schwamb: All of us can be generous with our time, our money sharing our resources. Sacrificially. If you're a small business owner, and this is gonna sound wild, but let's, let's talk about kingdom living for a second. Loved ones like I presumably you're listening to this because we're not just satisfied with the small things. [00:36:31] Jesse Schwamb: We wanna think big in what it means. For the gospel to go out, for Jesus to be known. And so in this context of being generous, maybe it means if you're a small business owner, that you're willing to take less personal profit to benefit your neighbors or your customers or your employees. You know, I think of this company called a Go. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: Which is a wooden toy company and it's, it was founded by a couple of Christians and driven by their Christian faith. They intentionally take smaller profit margins to benefit the people of Honduras where the wood is sourced and to create an employee savings program for them. I mean, that what a remarkable thing what, what a counter-cultural expression of what it means to be doing good. [00:37:08] Jesse Schwamb: Work. And so we can also grow and show our generosity to our colleagues by loving them outside work. You know, cooking a meal, preparing a meal for them when they have a child or attending a funeral if they lose a loved one, grabbing dinner with them if they're struggling, joining their club sports team, attending their wedding. [00:37:23] Jesse Schwamb: You know, generosity during, after work hours is a testimony of love. It shows that you see them as a whole person, not merely as like a productive asset or just a colleague. So I think we should push back a little bit on being generous and maybe sometimes I, I wanna say this. Gently because we are a benefit ourselves in this podcast of this, but not just with your money, especially with your time and maybe with like your attentional focus, maybe with your prayer time. [00:37:47] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe with your labor, in your prayer closet, that of all the things you could focus on, how often are we praying for our colleagues, like really praying that they would come to see the gospel in us, that we would be courageous in expressing that gospel and that God would arrest their hearts, which snatch them up and bring them into his kingdom so that all of our workplaces would be filled, uh, with Christians, that they would be everywhere. [00:38:08] Jesse Schwamb: Doing all kinds of things in som, much as God calls us to those things in submission to him, an expression of who he is and in obedience to what he's done for us. Here's another thing. I think this is a big one. It's one that I struggle with in my own life. [00:38:23] The Importance of Calmness and Authenticity [00:38:23] Jesse Schwamb: So I think another place, another way in which we can really stand out as Christians in our good work is to be known as calm. [00:38:30] Jesse Schwamb: Poised in the face of difficulty, failure or struggle. This might be the most telling way to judge if a person is drawing on the resources of the gospel and the development of their character. And this goes back to this idea of like, what does the a voracious person mean? It's, it's somebody who has like that inner. [00:38:47] Jesse Schwamb: Beauty expression of inner inner beauty. You know, how do we act when our boss passes over us for a promotion? How do we act if we fail to get that bonus we expected or, or if like a colleague is placed on a team we want to be on, how do we respond to those things really reveals where we placed our hope and identity. [00:39:03] Jesse Schwamb: And that can be a whole nother. Podcast. But if it's true that we have rooted ourselves, grounded ourselves, securely in Christ, then that is the supreme treasure that we have, and then everything else should be like, oh, that's no big deal. It's not to say that we're not gonna have big emotions, but even as we experience those big emotions, part of what it means to be humble is to come before God and say, God, I'm feeling this way. [00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: And I'm a contingent being and I'm upset about this. Would you help me to reveal your gospel in this situation? And what a blessing in our progressive sanctification where God moves us into that space so that what becomes normative is when everybody else is losing their minds, when everybody else is gossiping, when everybody else is complaining. [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: What everybody else is pushing back here is the Christian who is resolute in firm and is speaking words of life. Encouragement into their workplace or those whom they're doing their work, who is speaking the gospel to them, who is calm and is poised and is ready to lead in such a way that brings value to everybody, helps 'em to find the true security in the situation and is not willing to compromise by participating in a meaningless backtalk. [00:40:12] Jesse Schwamb: That is an incredible testimony, and there's no doubt it's gonna cause us to stand out. There is something about this placing value that I think is important to mention. And I think I mentioned this before, but Tony's not here and I'm just talking. And so my experience, my professional career is all in the realm of finance. [00:40:30] Jesse Schwamb: So I've gotta use this because I think about this a lot and it's certainly relevant to us thinking about where is our value. [00:40:38] The Concept of True Treasure [00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: I find it so interesting. That in the sermon on the mound. And when Jesus is speaking about treasures, he doesn't completely say that we should forsake treasures. Have you ever thought about that? [00:40:50] Jesse Schwamb: So instead of saying, you know, listen, don't worry about the treasure, just focus on me. Don't try to go after things. Just focus on me. And somebody says, listen. Listen, listen. You're going after the wrong treasure. So don't go after treasure where you know a moth or Russ is gonna destroy it or where like you're gonna be worried. [00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: A thief is gonna break in and steal it. All those things are not just temporal, they can be taken from you. In fact, they, they will be taken from you. This is the wild part to me. He says instead, rather than do that, here's what you should do. Seek after the treasure that's in heaven. In other words, the proclivity to want to grab hold of valuable things and to keep them close to you, that is not bad in and of itself. [00:41:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's that you are focusing on the wrong thing that you want to grab and hold close. Seek after those treasures in heaven. And I can tell you why. This just shows the brilliancy with which Jesus knows us because he has created us loved ones, and in our fallen state, he's so kind to condescend to be like us, yet of course, without sin. [00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: And in that he expresses a great knowledge of who we are and how we are. So. There's a very famous study done, actually very many versions of this study done, and what they'll do, and you can play along, I know I've done this before, but as you're sitting there listening to my voice play along with the scenario that I'm about to give you, and you can answer for yourself what you would do in this situation. [00:42:11] Jesse Schwamb: There's no right or wrong answer. So here's the situation. Researchers gave per people two options. They said, you, I can either give you a thousand dollars for sure, or. Or we can play a game. We'll flip a coin. If the coin is heads, you get $2,000, but if the coin comes up, tails, you get nothing. So the choices were you could have a sure thousand dollars or you could risk it. [00:42:39] Jesse Schwamb: And with a coin flip, a fair coin flip, you could get either $2,000 or zero. Now I'll pause. What would you prefer if you're like most people? You would take the sure $1,000 because you'd rather have for sure a thousand dollars in your pocket than giving up the gamble. Even though you could get twice as much the gamble of $2,000 or zero, who wants to walk away with zero when somebody's like, I'll give you a thousand dollars for certain. [00:43:06] Jesse Schwamb: Most people would prefer the certainty. Now those who are like keen have a turn of mind for mathematics are gonna realize that on average, those two options are exactly the same. So whether you get a thousand dollars. For certain, you got the a thousand dollars on the other option, half the time you'll get zero. [00:43:23] Jesse Schwamb: Half the time you'll get a $2,000. If you average those out, that's sequel to a thousand dollars over the long term. So there's something interesting there too, isn't it? See how our minds are working that we prefer, we are loss averse. In other words, we do not like loss. In fact, there's a very famous. [00:43:39] Jesse Schwamb: Theorem about this that says the pain of losing a dollar is twice as great as the pain of gaining one. And this is why it's so hard. If you have a retirement account, you have investments somewhere. When you look at your accounts and the numbers are down, you feel particularly awful. And when they're up, you feel good, but not that great. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is the idea of. Being a loss averse. Now, here's the other thing that these researchers did. They flipped the whole scenario, and I'm gonna give you one more thing to think about. So rather than talking about gains, they said these people, okay, here's your choice, and you have to choose one of these. [00:44:09] Jesse Schwamb: Either you can take a sure loss of a thousand dollars, or you can take a gamble. And you can take a, we'll flip a coin and if it comes up heads, you'll lose $2,000. But if it comes up tails, you will lose zero. So again, here are the two options, but now we're talking about losses. You either have to take a loss of a thousand dollars for certain, or you could take the gamble, flip a fail fair coin, and you could lose $2,000 or you might lose nothing if it comes up tails. [00:44:42] Jesse Schwamb: Now what would you do? Now if you're like most people, what these researchers found is people gravitated toward taking the risk. That is, they chose the option when they said, let me flip the coin, because at least if I flip the coin, there's a chance I might not lose anything. I know I might lose $2,000, but I would rather take the risk of losing 2000, but have the opportunity to lose nothing than take the sure loss of a thousand dollars. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what's crazy about all this. Here's what it teaches us, is we make the wrong choices all the time. You know, technically speaking, when it comes to gains, we should prefer the risk, the risk of zero, because you started out with zero, so you're not better. You're not worse off by having zero, and if you win, you get $2,000. [00:45:22] Jesse Schwamb: But when it comes to the loss, we should take the sure loss of a thousand dollars because we might end up having a loss of $2,000. We tend to behave poorly given the situations. This is an example of loss aversion and risk aversion, and Jesus knows this. That's the brilliance of it, of course, because he says, I know that your hearts will be troubled by losing your treasure. [00:45:45] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the thing. It's not the treasure that's bad, it's that you're putting your faith, you're going after the wrong thing. So loved ones. When we find ourselves rooted in Christ, when we find our identity right there in him, when we are sure that all that we have is in the heavenly realms and therefore everything else can float and fl away, then we find ourselves able to be the kind of people in our workplaces where we're calm, poised in the face of difficulty failure, or all kinds of challenges. [00:46:14] Jesse Schwamb: One more thing I would encourage you with, and that is just be known as authentic and integrated. This goes back to something Tony and I have really challenged ourselves with so much, and that is some Christians aren't very open about their faith at work and others talk about it all the time, but act and speak in ways that marginalize nonbelievers. [00:46:30] Jesse Schwamb: We should, of course, be really wise about how we share the reason for the hope that we're, we have when we're at work. But staying silent isn't an option. If we wanna be authentic people, we have to bring our whole selves to work. I think this is where we all, at times could use a little work. I, I've barely been encouraged by brothers and sisters who are far better at this than I, where. [00:46:50] Jesse Schwamb: They're really good at explaining why they do something, and perhaps they've been building a relationship with non-believers, serving them, working with them. And, but when the right opportunity approaches when the moment arrives, they're right there with their explanation. They're quick to say, it's because Jesus loves me. [00:47:06] Jesse Schwamb: They're quick to talk about the transforming power of the gospel. And it's not in a way that's overbearing. It's not in a way that seems disingenuous or somehow like they're, they're shoehorning in some kind of, you know, bully pulpit testimony. Instead, it's a natural expression. Because they were ready and willing and brave. [00:47:22] Jesse Schwamb: To do that. So we've got to be known as authentic and integrated, and that integration is just as important as the authenticity. What, what is the good, what is the point of doing many of these good works if there is not a commensurate explanation or expression of why we are doing them, because. Plenty of people who are non-believers also do good work. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: This is part of the common grace that God has given to all of our world and to the entire universe writ large. So in that being said, sometimes we just need to say, this is why I'm doing it. And it's possible that probably people are sometimes thinking, I have no idea why this person is doing this, but I'm not gonna ask them. [00:47:57] Jesse Schwamb: 'cause that's super weird. So by us stepping forward and saying, listen, I love you, God is good to me, uh, there there's a God over the universe who saved me. I was in this pit of despair and he's taken me out of that pit. My work, the things I do, I do now for him. I do it not just because I wanna provide for my family, but because I love God. [00:48:16] Jesse Schwamb: I want to be obedient in worshiping him, and part of how I worship him is doing my work this particular way. That's why you see me. Work like this. What a beautiful thing. Loved ones. [00:48:25] Final Thoughts and Encouragement [00:48:25] Jesse Schwamb: So there's so much I think for us to think about here. I could go on and on, and at this point, this is no longer a short episode. [00:48:32] Jesse Schwamb: You've gotten almost 50 minutes of me just talking. So I want to thank some people for good works right now. And that is. For those of you who have joined in the Telegram chat and are hanging out. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And there's so much good conversation going on there. Again, I gotta plug it. [00:48:48] Jesse Schwamb: If you haven't, if you're not in there, you're really missing out on this experience. It's not just hearing Tony and I talk. It's coming alongside and being integrated with all kinds of other brothers and sisters. So do yourself and us a favor and go to T Me Rhyme, see t me slash reform brotherhood and come hang out with us in addition. [00:49:10] Jesse Schwamb: I'm so grateful for all those who contribute to the podcast financially to make sure that just keeps going. If you've ever wondered like, how is this all free, and there's a website where I can go surf the back [email protected] and it just shows up in my podcast feed, and it doesn't sound like they're in a tin can somewhere or in a hurricane recording this. [00:49:28] Jesse Schwamb: How does all of that happened? It happens because there's so many lovely brothers and sisters who's come alongside and said. Yeah, you know what? After all my responsibilities, I have a little bit left over and I wanna make sure that this thing just continues to keep going. And so I say to you, thank you so much. [00:49:43] Jesse Schwamb: If you would like to be a part of that and I challenge you, come join us in giving toward the podcast, Tony and I do. And there's somebody I love, our brothers and sisters who do as well. That's what makes this happen. You can go to patreon.com, reformed brotherhood, so we've got all kinds of good stuff coming up. [00:49:59] Jesse Schwamb: I love the fall season, autumn in the Western hemisphere here, because it feels like a reset in many ways. Like the kids go back to school, the weather changes depending on where you are, the leaves fall to the ground. It feels like there's all of this, that kind of glorious newness that's happening. [00:50:14] Jesse Schwamb: There's death and there's revival, there's new life. And so also for us on the podcast, because we've got a great. Great series coming up and while I am sworn contractually to secrecy on what that topic is, especially 'cause Tony's not here, he would never want me to disclose it without him present because we've been excited as we've been brainstorming it together. [00:50:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've never talked about these things. What we're the series we've done, we've never done before. It's possible. We may have talked around and referenced some we're about to have a conversation on, but it's gonna be great and you're gonna wanna hang out. So keep doing the good work, loved ones, keep walking in the path of righteousness. [00:50:50] Jesse Schwamb: Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together and everything that we do. So keep doing that stuff and we'll hang out again very, very soon. But until we do that, do this. [00:51:12] Jesse Schwamb: Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the complex relationship between Christian vocation and professional ambition. Moving beyond the obvious prohibition of inherently sinful professions, they examine whether certain legitimate careers might still be inappropriate for Christians if they compromise our responsibilities to family and church. The hosts challenge the common assumption that Christians should seek maximum worldly influence, suggesting instead that faithfulness in our threefold calling—to work, family, and church—should guide our vocational choices. Drawing on Reformed theology's rich understanding of vocation, they offer practical wisdom for believers navigating career decisions and workplace responsibilities while maintaining spiritual priorities in a culture that often glorifies professional success at any cost. Key Takeaways Vocation is threefold: A proper understanding of Christian vocation includes responsibilities to our work, our families, and our church—not just our careers. Lord's Day conflicts: Professions that regularly prevent church attendance and Lord's Day observance may be inappropriate for Christians, regardless of their potential for influence or impact. Family obligations: Scripture teaches that Christians who neglect family responsibilities are "worse than unbelievers" (1 Tim. 5:8), suggesting that careers demanding excessive time away from family may be problematic. Christian influence vs. gospel proclamation: We must distinguish between transforming culture through worldly influence versus the actual proclamation of the gospel, which can happen at any level of employment. Sacrifice is expected: Following Christ often requires sacrificing career advancement, prestige, or financial gain to fulfill our primary callings. Priority check: When considering job opportunities, Christians should evaluate church options in a new location with the same care they give to schools, housing, and other community factors. God calls us to faithfulness: Our primary calling is to faithfulness in our responsibilities, not necessarily to positions of maximum influence or cultural power. Balancing the Threefold Calling The hosts challenge the idea that Christians should prioritize career advancement and influence above all else. They argue that vocation in the Reformed tradition encompasses more than just our paid work—it includes our responsibilities to family and church as well. This means that even if a career opportunity seems beneficial for "kingdom influence," we must evaluate whether it allows us to fulfill our other God-given duties. Tony points out that while some professions clearly contradict Christian ethics, others may subtly undermine our ability to be faithful in all areas of life. A high-powered executive role might provide platforms for influence but could require such time commitments that family relationships suffer or regular Lord's Day worship becomes impossible. As Jesse observes, "vocation is fundamentally God's doing," not simply about finding personal fulfillment or maximizing impact. This framework helps believers evaluate career choices more holistically. The Question of Christian Influence A central question emerges throughout the episode: Should Christians pursue positions of maximum influence to advance kingdom values? While this idea sounds appealing, the hosts suggest it often masks a "theology of glory" rather than embracing the "theology of the cross." Jesse notes that "God doesn't call us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is faithfulness." They distinguish between the transformative power of the gospel—which can be proclaimed regardless of position—and other ways of transforming culture through worldly influence. Tony explains that "whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same." This perspective challenges Christians to reconsider whether pursuing leadership positions always aligns with God's calling, especially when such roles might compromise other spiritual obligations. The hosts argue that faithfulness in ordinary circumstances, not exceptional influence, should be our primary aim. Quotes "Would it be great if the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. But if the trade-off is that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, that's not worth it." - Tony Arsenal "I do think we have to sit back and ask, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential... I think there is a real temptation to somehow say like, what we need to do is to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things here will be better." - Jesse Schwamb "I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family, or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day... than it is on something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level." - Tony Arsenal Practical Applications The hosts suggest several practical considerations for Christians evaluating career opportunities: Will this job regularly prevent Lord's Day worship? Does it require sacrificing time with family beyond what's reasonable? Could you negotiate Sabbath observance with potential employers? When relocating, evaluate church options with the same care given to schools and housing Consider whether a lower-paying job that allows faithfulness in all areas might be better than a higher-paying one that doesn't Full Transcript [00:00:00] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 458 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:16] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where even your work is unto the glory of God. Hey brother. Hey [00:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: brother. You know that's right. It [00:00:26] Tony Arsenal: is. That's why I said it. [00:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it was. That's a great way to open. We, I think from time to time come back to the topic of work and we've got a great, I think, conversation in the queue for this particular episode. [00:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Now it's gonna sound maybe on the face. Right off the top here. Familiar. So of course, like we've talked before, how scripture makes it clear that Christians are to be salt and light in the world. And we've talked, I think, at length about, well, how exactly do we carry out that? And though we know that we're not saved by our good works. [00:00:57] Jesse Schwamb: Again, the Bible teaches very clearly that God expects good works from Christians, that that is in fact what he saves us to do. Again, we're not saved by those good works, but the question I think still remains, and we're gonna come to it in this conversation about what exactly does he want us to do and where does he want us to do it. [00:01:13] Jesse Schwamb: So in other words, we know that according to scripture, God providentially, governs and cares for his entire creation. So how does that play out in human society given the reality of sin? So we're gonna get to topics like. Well, should Christians be in every line of work? Is that the ideal? Are there jobs or positions or responsibilities that seemingly may not be obvious that Christians really shouldn't be a part of? [00:01:37] Jesse Schwamb: Because it takes them too far afield, maybe from the responsibilities that God gives us holistically to think of our calling is and our families and our churches in our work. So it's a bit more nuanced play of a conversation we had before, but hopefully something that's gonna have all kinds of practicality wrapped around it. [00:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So that's what's coming. [00:01:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I think this is gonna be a good conversation and I think I, I think this is one of those topics where like there's a lot of different angles to come at it from, right? We talk about vocation and work, and we've had those conversations before, and I think other shows and other venues have had that conversation before. [00:02:15] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that I've encountered a conversation really to this like angle of it. So I'm looking forward to this. [00:02:23] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. It's gonna be great. And of course, before we get to all that goodness, all that greatness, which I'm sure is about to transpire shortly and will be of course the definitive conversation, the one to end all to, I guess both to your point, bring it into the world. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Then to shut it down because we'll have accomplished both ends in just a single hour. [00:02:41] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:41] Jesse Schwamb: Before we get to that, let's do some affirming or denying. This is the part of our conversation where you and I always pick one thing either that we're affirming with and kind of the tradition of the reformed faith, where we take something that's undervalued or something that excites us, we think has great merit or worth, and we put out into the world and say, we're standing behind this thing, or conversely, we deny against it in that same kind of tradition by saying, this thing is overvalued, not worth it. [00:03:05] Jesse Schwamb: Not our jam. So in our tradition, I ask you are you affirming with something or are you not against something? [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something specific that will lead to something general. So, okay. [00:03:16] Exploring AI in Learning [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I've been playing around with Google Gemini, which is Google's AI platform. [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: And uh, I've been using it in a sort of interesting way. So Google has, uh, Gemini has these things called gems, which are basically like predefined personalities or predefined. I dunno, like instructions. So they have one gem that is a learning guide where basically you can give it a topic and it will, it will deliver mini lectures, give you quizzes, you can prompt it. [00:03:46] Tony Arsenal: So like I can paste in, um, you know, I can take in Lagos, I can paste a copy of the Bible, like a chapter of the Bible into the learning guide. It'll summarize it, it'll ask me questions. It'll basically gimme many lectures on it. Um, that's the specific thing. This is such a cool technology. And in my mind, this is really where AI is strong, is that you can take large sections of text and it will summarize it and synthesize it into a very usable format. [00:04:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, so what I've been doing, like I said, is I'll read, I'll read a, a chunk of text from whatever it is I'm reading, and then I'll copy and paste that entire chunk of text if it's an electronic text into the learning. Learning guide module and ask it to act as like a seminary lecturer and quiz me on the content. [00:04:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, which really helps to solidify the content I'm reading rather than just passing my eyes over it. I'm actually, um, processing it and retaining it more. I think you could probably do something similar with just about any AI platform if you had the right kind of prompt, which is where the general one comes in. [00:04:50] Tony Arsenal: And I would encourage you, listener to think a little bit about how you might utilize this, because I think we all read lots and lots of things. Our, our, um, particular audience tends to be a little bookish, and so I'm sure we're all reading things as we go, but I'm not sure we're always processing things in the most effective way. [00:05:07] Tony Arsenal: So think a little bit about like how you might use something like chat, GPT, which is available for free, or Claude, which is available for free to do this kind of like. Almost like simulated classroom lecture. Um, and I know there are some questions about ai. Like I, I heard an argument that ai, when you're generating content is, is a sort of form of sophisticated, uh, plagiarism, which I'm not sure I buy it, but I understand the argument. [00:05:33] Tony Arsenal: This is something very different where you're really just using the, using the AI to synthesize and summarize text and sort of spit it back to you in a new format. Um, you're not trying to generate anything new. You're not trying to create anything. That you're gonna publish or anything like that. It's really just a, a form of synthesis. [00:05:49] Tony Arsenal: So I've really found this to be super beneficial. Um, I'm having a really great time at it. I'm, I'm using it for language studies, so I'm reading through mount's basics, biblical Greek. And I'll copy and paste the whole chapter in, ask it to act as a lecturer, and it will walk me through the chapter. It'll stop to do quizzes. [00:06:08] Tony Arsenal: It'll drill me on vocab as I'm going. And then when, when I up, the instruction I get is, don't move forward until you are convinced that I've mastered the content. And so when I get something wrong, it goes back and makes me redo it. So it continues to iterate until it's, until the AI has. Synthesize that I have mastered the content, and then it asks me to provide the next chapter. [00:06:30] Tony Arsenal: So it's a cool technology. It's a, it's a sort of novel use for the technology. Um, again, Google has built in modules that do this, but I think you could probably use chat, GPT or Claude or Orrock or whatever AI model you're using to accomplish the same goal. [00:06:45] Jesse Schwamb: There's no doubt that AI is great for like building study notes, helping you create space, repetition, all those like little hacks that we have long talked about. [00:06:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this provides it to you in a really bespoke course customized way, but it gets you involved. I'm with you if you wanna do this the old fashioned way. I'll go back to something I I've affirmed with before and that's this very famous book originally authored in the 1940s called How to Read a Book by Mor Mortimer, j Adler, and that is an exercise. [00:07:13] Jesse Schwamb: Helping you do some of that stuff in real time as well. Yeah, so I think there'd be a lovely compliment to say you're reading actively and then you get to test immediately that active reading by way of using ai. So even before, like, maybe even just jumping to like, well, let me read it, but I'm, I'm gonna trust that AI's gonna really kind of supplement me or fill in the gaps and just gimme what I need to know. [00:07:33] Jesse Schwamb: Trying to do that in real time. Pausing in your reading. Again, kind of studying as you go along, thinking out loud through what you've just read and then saying, alright, now test me is a great way to, 'cause who wants to like read stuff unless you can remember this stuff and then unless you can apply it, right? [00:07:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So it's such a joy to be able to read things and then to remember. And if you haven't had that experience yet, I like your affirmation. I think this is a great way to test it out. [00:07:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, just to maybe flesh this out. So I, I asked it to, and I'm, I'm doing this sort of as an experiment just to see how it works, but also just 'cause it's, it's useful. [00:08:06] Tony Arsenal: I asked it to act as a seminary lecturer and I copied and paste the entire first chapter of the Westminster Confession. And rather than split it up by section and actually combined paragraphs that were. Um, related to each other. So it combined the list of Bible, uh, books, and then the chapter on apocrypha and gave me some like lectures. [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: But here's what it said about, um, about chapter 10. It says, paragraph 10, declares the supreme judge can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking scripture. This is the ultimate outworking of sola Scripture, means that every other authority is lesser authority that must submit to the judgment of the word of God. [00:08:42] Tony Arsenal: This includes decrees of church counsels. Opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, private spirits. It goes on for a little while longer. Then it says, I will give you a brief final quiz covering the whole of chapter one, and it asks questions like A historian makes the following claim. The Bible only has authority. [00:08:59] Tony Arsenal: It does because influential councils in the early church, like the Council of Carthage officially voted on which books would be included in the cannon. The church therefore gave the Bible its authority drawing from your knowledge of paragraphs three, uh, three, four, and five. Provide a two-part critique of the historian statement. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Which then I had to type it out. It critiqued, um, it analyzed my answer. Um, I happened to get that question right. I did at one point think maybe this is actually just like finding a way to say everything that I say is right. So I purposely put a wrong answer in and it did identify that the answer was wrong, and then it made me go back and revisit that content. [00:09:35] Tony Arsenal: So it's very, it's a very cool use case. I'm glad that Google kind of built this in. They have all sorts of other gems. If you have, if you have a way to get access to Google Gemini, um. It's not the best AI for everything, but it's got, it's pretty versatile. It's got a lot of utility, so check it out. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that sounds great. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Again, there's all kinds of fun things I think we could be using AI for to help us be better learners or to really enjoy our interaction with data and information more. Yeah. It is a really great way to conversationally help you to learn something, and that's what makes it so much better. It stands way far apart from, again, just leading, just reading or just creating flashcards or even just, just creating study notes, but that back and forth to test you on something, even if it's just like casual knowledge that you can really want to internalize. [00:10:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I found that to be super valuable. Again, like, man, if you're a learner, if you're a reader, if you're a human being, what an amazing time to live in the world where data is so prevalent, but it's increasingly being brought into a place where we can put our arms around it in a way in which we're trying to really understand it. [00:10:38] Jesse Schwamb: You know, I think about how we used to search for something, I mean. Used to like this that like, that wasn't like last year. You know what I mean? Like we just go on to our, your favorite search engine. Type in a topic or maybe type in even a specific question. And at best you'd have to sort through this litany, this plethora, this morass of all these links about articles that may pertain to what you asked. [00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Or maybe they pertain to it generally, but not really specifically. Yeah. The specificity with which you can have a conversational interaction that engenders knowledge is wild. I mean, I really think that is like the huge play of ai. Just lean into it and enjoy it. [00:11:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:11:16] Nasal Spray Affirmation [00:11:16] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going a totally different direction. It's an affirmation, but I'm taking it from my ears, nose, nose, and throat doctor who affirmed this to me, so I might be totally late on this. There are very few things that I can say like somebody's recommended to me or affirm. It's been like absolute game changer, like just drop dead from the first moment I used it or employed the thing that it just changed everything. [00:11:38] Jesse Schwamb: This is one of those things. Which maybe I've just already oversold, but the affirmation is with something called it's, it's spelled X-L-E-A-R, I think it's still pronounced clear, but it's called literally phonetically XL nasal spray, and it's a. This doesn't sound very exciting, but bear with me everybody. [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a natural, non-addictive saline nasal spray featuring Zi Atol as its primary active ingredient. So if you're not familiar with Zi Atol, which I wasn't until I went to my ENT by the way I've seen for many years and only just recommended this to me. So I had some words 'cause I was working, where's this been all my life. [00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: But Zito is a naturally occurring alcohol sugar. It's found in like many fruits and vegetables, and it can be commercially produced from like birch wine or corn fiber. It looks and tastes similar to like table sugar, but it contains fewer calories, so it can be used and is often used as like a sweetener in sugar-free foods like chewing gum, mint candies, jam, stuff like that. [00:12:35] Jesse Schwamb: Here's one of the strange side effects. That they notice though about Zi atol, and that is it totally, uh, cleanses, moisturizes and soos nasal passages. And it gives you all kinds of relief from like common congestion stuff like colds, allergies, low humidity, humidity, science, pressure, stuff like that. What it does is it actually breaks down or lubricates your inner nasal passages, including like flushing out the mucus. like it works actually with your body. So what's amazing is it's, it's really great for, it's kinda like a soap for the nose. It clears up bacteria, pollens, dander, molds, like all kinds of irritants. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: It also studies have shown blocks, adhesion of other pathogens like bacterial, fungal, viral to the mucosal tissues, helping the body to wash them away. So [00:13:23] Jesse Schwamb: this thing is absolutely. Wild. And I can say for certain that if you're the kind of person like me, where let's say like you're, you're hitting the Flonase hard at different seasons because you got those seasonal allergies because of the fall and because sin is real. I'm with you. That dries out your nose. [00:13:42] Jesse Schwamb: This thing is like a, a sauna or a spa for your nose, and then it literally like clears everything out. It's almost magical. I, I'm serious. It's so fantastic. So if you've been looking for something to really help with that and it, again, it's safe. There's no drug in it. It's not addictive, so you can use it all the time. [00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: It's just saline and zi etol. It is phenomenal. So go get yourself, do yourself a favor. Do, do your, do your nose and your sinuses a solid and, and get the solids outta them by using. X clear. I feel like a bat just flew by your face or like a giant bird. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, that sounds like a really great thing to check out. [00:14:22] Tony Arsenal: Is this clear stuff? Um, I have had struggles with like sinus infections over the last couple years, so I'm gonna check this out when it gets to allergy season in the fall year. [00:14:32] Hummingbird Moth Encounter [00:14:32] Tony Arsenal: But yes, uh, one of the rare, uh, moths that I've learned lives near my house is called a, uh, what's it called? Uh. It commonly, it's called like a hummingbird moth. [00:14:44] Tony Arsenal: Have you heard of these things? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I've never seen them before, but the reason they're called hummingbird moths is 'cause they look like hummingbirds, but they're actually moths and I right now. Hopefully this will change eventually, but. It will have to, 'cause it gets cold here. Um, I'm recording outside and a hummingbird moth literally just flew between my computer and my face. [00:15:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, I wasn't talking at the time so you wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, which is too bad. Uh, but yeah, Jesse saw me freak out a little bit, which is uh, which is fine. [00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: It happened the [00:15:16] Tony Arsenal: first time I saw one. I was like, is that a huge bee? No, it's just a hummingbird broth. [00:15:21] Jesse Schwamb: Somebody, everybody should look them up though, because they're kind of wild looking. [00:15:25] Jesse Schwamb: Like if you've seen it in real life, they have that hummingbird pose where the body, body is kind of laid back and the wings are going crazy. Like they literally do hover like that. Yeah. And they're, they're almost that big. The one that tried to attack you there was pretty large. [00:15:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They don't, um, they, they. [00:15:41] Tony Arsenal: Move a little different than hummingbirds, which is why the first time that I saw one, I thought it was a bee. Um, because when they, when they land on a flower, they crawl inside the flower the same way that a, like a bee or a bumblebee will, um, they don't hover outside the flower like a hummingbird, but they do. [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: They, their body is, I mean, their body is probably an, an inch and a half long like a hummingbird. Um, and it's thick like a hummingbird. They don't look like moths at all. So I'm not sure they must be part of the Moth family, I guess. Um, I'm trying to remember. It's. They have like a specific name, I wanna say Scarab, but that's not right. [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: But it's something like that is the, the technical name of it. They're like a scarab moth or something like that. But [00:16:20] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, I've just come up. It's a wild name. [00:16:22] Tony Arsenal: This is your top 50 Entomology, uh, podcast apparently. As well as the top 50 health cath. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, com combine the two tonight, so yeah, I'm gonna check that out in the, the spring or in the fall here, Jesse. [00:16:34] Tony Arsenal: My, my allergies always go a little bit crazy when we get to September. Yeah. With all the, like leaves falling down and crumbling up and stuff, it just gets in the air, so I'll just, I'll spray some artificial sugar. It's not artificial. I'll spray some pseudo sugar in my nose and see what happens. [00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It does have the added benefit that because it is a naturally occurring. [00:16:53] Jesse Schwamb: Sugar, like it's a type of sugar alcohol that if it drips down the back of your throat, all you get is a little like, mm, sweet. [00:17:03] Tony Arsenal: I wanna know who the first guy who was like, let me put some of this fake sugar in my nose and see what happens was it's, [00:17:09] Jesse Schwamb: I'm telling you, it, it's better than any actual, like, prescribed nasal spray I've ever taken. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: You can get it like just at your g it. Yeah. Or you can get it on Amazon. I, I will, I forgot about it for a while. I, maybe I use it daily now it's become my go-to. But I mean, I don't wanna make this weird or gross, but it's the kind of thing like if you wake up in the morning and you're stuffy and you, it feels like somebody parked like a bus way up in your sinus cavity. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And you're like, I can't even blow my nose. There's nothing there where, where's all this stuff? There's nothing there. If you use this, when I use this within two, two, I'd say like seven minutes, I can just. Drop a huge load of mucus right outta my face and you feel like a million bucks. I don't know how to describe it. [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's like better than like a sinus rinse or a netty pot. I know this sounds wild, like I'm way too excited about this stuff, but that clear spray is wild. And what I especially love is that it's all natural, that I'm not doing any harm to my nose or my face by using it. And that it, I just feel better afterwards because it's like moisturized everything. [00:18:08] Jesse Schwamb: So, and there's, there's, the debate is I think ongoing. There's a lot apparently, because I went down the rabbit trail and looked at all these scholarly studies and peer-reviewed journal papers, all this stuff. There's a lot, I guess, uh, still somewhat in debate about like its ability to really help prevent certain things like COVID, any kind of like nasal airborne kind of like, yeah, because it helps to flush and it prevents literally bacteria from sticking, uh, inside your nasal passages. [00:18:34] Jesse Schwamb: So that could be a benefit. I can't say anything about that. I'm not a doctor. What, [00:18:40] Tony Arsenal: what I would love is, uh, if you are a listener who has seasonal allergies or whatever, uh, if you would join our telegram chat at t.me/reform brotherhood. Well done. We have what's normally a tastings channel, which is like people get like new foods they wanna check out, or a beer they like or whatever, and they'll, uh, they'll do a little tasting and a review. [00:19:04] Tony Arsenal: I would love if some people would join the channel and do some, some clear, clear. We'll go clear, uh, a tasting of this nasal spray. Yeah, please don't show us. 'cause that's disgusting. Right. But, uh, let us know. Let us know what you think of it. I think that'd be great. So that's t me slash Reform Brotherhood. [00:19:21] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. Come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. I see we've had some people join that group this week, so I see you out there, brother Sean. Crushing it, getting in the mix. Welcome everybody. Come again. Spend a little time in there. And there's, I love that the channel for like the conversation about our episodes is. [00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: Hot. It's going strong. I love that. And we gave the call last week. You should listen to last week's episode when we were really speaking about, uh, God's faithfulness and a challenge of how we seek after piety, under the care and the direction, the kind direction and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit. [00:19:55] Jesse Schwamb: So many good things were said there. I really loved reading all those. And it probably goes without saying, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. You and I read everything that pops in there. Yeah. For the most part. I mean, sometimes I look at it and there's 150 messages, right? And um, it got wild. But I go back through and always, always read those. [00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: But I especially love like the conversation when we invite people to say, like, now it's, we'd love to hear from you. And so I think that's gonna be a large part of what we talk about. On this episode as well. [00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesse, why don't you lead us in here. This was the topic you brought up. I think it's a great one. [00:20:25] Tony Arsenal: I'd love to to dive into it here. [00:20:27] Christian Vocation and Work [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: I think one of the things that Christians always have to come to terms with at some point, every generation has to, but every person as well is, so where is my role as Christ child in something we might generally call like Christian activism? By which I mean like, of course, like Christians. [00:20:44] Jesse Schwamb: Attempt to improve or influence society through time, especially in our work. And as I was thinking about this recently, I think one of the hard things we have to measure out is well. Are there different places where we would, there's certainly jobs where we say Christians shouldn't hold that position because it contravenes God's law directly. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: But what about these kind of, as we've talked about before, this threefold responsibility that we have in our callings, which you can go back to our previous catalog, which is all in the reform brotherhood.com, by the way. Listen to where we talked about this idea of like the vocation that happens in our work, in our households, in our church, and is it possible that in the work sphere that there are jobs that like Christians just shouldn't hold because it takes them too far away from their responsibilities in the other two spheres, which there are equally parts of their vocation, or if we want to put like a really fine point in it, and I don't really mean to derail the conversation with this question, but this would be exemplifying kind of what we're after here, which was like, should Christians be involved and. [00:21:47] Jesse Schwamb: In politics, are there other jobs like that where we'd say, listen, we, we tr we trust God in his sovereign superintendent will that he's always doing his good work. And you and I have talked at length about what it means to be living in the, under the normal principle of God using ordinary, normal means to do great and extraordinary things. [00:22:06] Jesse Schwamb: So how does all of that fit with our work? Are there lines to be drawn or. Does it not really matter? [00:22:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think for the sake of our conversation, we can just sort of take some professions off the table. Right? Of course, there are some professions of course, and calling them professions is probably even, probably even a misnomer. [00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: But there are some ways to earn money that are just intrinsically sinful that are outside of the scope of the conversation, right? You can't, uh, there's no argument for a Christian to become like. An assassin or like a drug dealer or a prostitute, like, there's no, there's no valid argument or discussion to be had around those. [00:22:45] Tony Arsenal: So we can just exclude those entirely. But I think for, for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about professions that do not involve, intrinsically involve sin, um, and, and may or may not have, um. Prudential reasons why they are not the best idea. Right. So I, I'm thinking like, the one that came to mind when you asked this was like, and it's funny because I, um, I mentioned the topic to my wife and, you know, she kind of joked, I was like, well, yeah, like Christians can't be. [00:23:15] Tony Arsenal: Can't like be porn stars, like that's not something you can do as a Christian. But then, then I, she said, well, what, what other professions would it be? I said, well, like, like a professional football player, right? And like the question is like, can a Christian be a professional football player? I think instinctively, right? [00:23:29] Tony Arsenal: We all say yes. But, but is that actually true? Right. And, and I would, I would make the argument that no, like a Christian can't be a professional football player or really, really any kind of professional sports, um, figure because it, it necessarily takes you away from the gathered fellowship of Christians on the Lord's day on far too often a basis. [00:23:47] Tony Arsenal: Right? I don't think you can make a good prudential argument to say like, well. It's fine for a Christian to be absent from the lord's uh, Lord's Day worship in his congregation of membership, you know, 60% of the time. Like, I just don't think you can make that argument. So I think in a lot of these cases, the immediate instinctive answer is yes. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: Uh. Christians can be part of any profession, and there's a certain, there's a certain way that that's true, but when we actually start to look at the way some professions actually play out, we have to analyze that a lot deeper. And this is actually not all that different than our conversation last week. [00:24:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. Involving like a. Pop culture and like media consumption is we have to look at what is actually, what the actual cost is. Uh, opportunity cost, I guess if we want to use like economic terms, what the actual opportunity cost is here of a particular profession in respect of. Our obligations and our commitments as a Christian and our obligation to the law of God, our obligation to our Christian brothers and sisters, all of that. [00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: So I think this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to get into it. Um, but I do think it's one that we should think through a little bit more than just sort of like our gut reaction. Like we, of course, Christians can be involved in any profession. [00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: Let me add to that. 'cause that's perfect. That's exactly, you're not on the same page as usual. [00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's exactly where my mind was going. And what makes like this such a rich opportunity to really explore what the scripture has to say about this particular topic? I think you're right on that we need to weigh out, which we often just kind of glance over. What are the other responsibilities by taking on a particular line of work or job. [00:25:20] Jesse Schwamb: Does that necessarily mean that we must sacrifice and preclude these other areas? We should have direct or more intimate involvement because that is also part of vocation. Part of that, like we've talked about at length before, is responsibility in the Lord's day. So we might set that up as one particular test. [00:25:36] Jesse Schwamb: To that end, another one might be exactly what you were saying. So here's like the opposite of like the professional footballer or American football or whatever. Pick your, pick your sports. What about like high level? High responsibility, let's say leadership positions like in all kinds of areas of industry that would require the man or the woman to, let's say, like be on call continually, or maybe to sacrifice long hours at that job as part and parcel of what's required to do it effectively. [00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: And that might mean that necessarily like not being very connected with family or having to be away from their family a lot of the time. I think what we often come to is this idea that, wouldn't it be great if Christians were just everywhere and were infiltrating all the things all the time at all the levels. [00:26:21] Jesse Schwamb: I think the question here that's under the surface is, is that what God assigns in a life of vocation? And maybe it's, it's of course more nuance than that and it could be for the person. Again, I wanna be clear that, like we said before, vocation is a very specific and narrow term in that we're talking about an actual calling being called out for a particular purpose. [00:26:42] Jesse Schwamb: And if we're using that in the right way, then it's possible that with the exception of some things like the Lord's Day, the other thing I just talked about, season of life. And your particular commitments or entanglements, they might be different from person to person. Therefore, allow for a direct call that God gives to a particular purpose at a particular time. [00:27:01] Jesse Schwamb: I think what I'm really kind of weighing out here is if we understand how the reformers viewed all of this. We have to come to this conclusion that God assigns us a life and then God calls us to that life. And that really is what vocation is all about. And notice in that there's nothing that's said about choosing a vocation or finding your true vocation or being fulfilled even in your vocation. [00:27:24] Jesse Schwamb: We may experience a struggle with all of that, but vocation is fundamentally God's doing. So what is. God doing in our society. And as you said, are there roles that he's, in a way not calling, let's say like the, the quintessential or the normative, I don't wanna say average 'cause that implies the weird thing, but Right. [00:27:44] Jesse Schwamb: Kind of Christian too. And I think. We've gotta, we've gotta wrestle with that because you're right. Like we too often just run to, we need Christians in all the places now let's get them everywhere. Doing all the things. Yeah. And that might be good from our perspective, because Christians should be the best workers as we said that we should. [00:28:01] Jesse Schwamb: The most kind. There is the salt in lights everywhere. However, it takes a Christian to do all those things. And can a Christian in certain roles have great fidelity to the threefold? [00:28:13] Exploring the Theology of Work and the Lord's Day [00:28:13] Jesse Schwamb: Calling and vocation of life while upholding certain jobs and responsibilities. [00:28:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think that may be like a little bit of progam is, is warranted here too. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: Like there, you know, there's the, the, the conversation at the top of like, some, some professions are just out of bounds. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, a pretty robust theology. And I think a lot of this is gonna center around. Uh, maybe just for simplicity's sake and for the fact that we have 30 minutes left of a conversation that probably could be multiple hours, um, there's a pretty robust apparatus in reform theology that is designed to help Christians understand whether or not, um. [00:28:57] Tony Arsenal: A particular activity is acceptable on the Lord's day. And we've, we've had conversations in the past about like, if, if all of your theology of the Lord's Day is about what you can and can't do, then you're missing the point entirely. [00:29:11] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:29:11] Tony Arsenal: But there is an element of what you can and can't do in terms of understanding the Lord's day. [00:29:16] Tony Arsenal: Right. We're, we're not supposed to engage in worldly recreation or employment on the Lord's day. So we have to talk about what that means. And so I think. [00:29:24] Works of Necessity and Charity on the Lord's Day [00:29:24] Tony Arsenal: I think to start with, like there's categories, like works of necessity, works of charity, um, that, or, or like works of ministry, which would, would sort of be a third category that's not necessarily, um, not necessarily enumerated in many of the sources, but it's assumed that like pastors who are working on the Lord's day are not, they're not violating the Sabbath by doing the work on the Sabbath. [00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Um, I think we have to have those categories. 'cause I think that helps us inform too, like. If you are the CEO of a major retailer, does that mean you have to work on Sunday, right? Well, probably it does. Like, it probably means that on a regular basis you're gonna be checking emails on your phone, you're gonna be taking phone calls. [00:30:05] Tony Arsenal: You've got, you might have partners in markets overseas where it, it's Sunday morning for you, but it's Monday afternoon or you know, Monday morning for them or something like that. Um. I think that the industry you're in largely is going to drive whether that's an acceptable or, or an appropriate role for you. [00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So I could see a situation where you could make the argument that being the CEO of a of a major medical center, right. Where the work that's being done at the medical center falls easily within that sort of definition of, uh, works of necessity. A nurse who is working in the emergency room or a police officer or a firefighter or somebody who is fixing the power, like in our society, right? [00:30:47] Tony Arsenal: Electricity is, is not an option for most people. It's not a, it's not a luxury for most people. So those, those professions. It's acceptable to work on the Lord's Day when it's a work of necessity, and so the higher level leadership positions that make those possible and constrain them also, I think. Would fall under that same work of necessity. [00:31:06] Tony Arsenal: If the CEO of my hospital, I don't know if she's a Christian or not. I, I'm, I'm not speculating on that, but if, if the CEO of my hospital was a Christian or is a Christian and she has to take an important phone call on Sunday morning and miss the Lord's day because if she doesn't take care of that, the hospital's not gonna function correctly and people may not have emergency services. [00:31:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that's a violation of the south principle. If the same scenario is happening and it's the CEO of Best Buy and they need to take a phone call, otherwise people won't be able to buy widgets on Sunday afternoon, that's a different calculation. So I think like right off the bat, we have to start having those conversations about what's the nature of the work, what's the, what's the tell loss of the work or the end aim of the work. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: That's really important as well. [00:31:48] Balancing Professional Responsibilities and Christian Obligations [00:31:48] Jesse Schwamb: So it sounds like though what we're saying, both of us in a way, is that if you run that test, so to speak, like you go through that algorithm and you come out with this idea that you know, it's, you're saying your industry is more like Best Buy and less like your local hospital, then there might be significant and maybe insurmountable roadblocks to taking that position Should be as a c. [00:32:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I mean, that's kinda what we're saying. [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, like this is a real world application I think for a lot of people. I remember when I was in college, um, I had the opportunity to take a promotion. I worked at Best Buy. I, I'm not using Best Buy as an example for any specific reason, but I worked at Best Buy. [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: I worked in the Geek Squad area and I had the opportunity to take a promotion. Um, and the sort of the strings that came with the promotion is that I was expected to be available to work on Sundays. I didn't have a super robust doctrine of the Lord's Day at the time. Like I wasn't super theologically versed on Sabbath theology and stuff. [00:32:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, but it just didn't sit right with me. And so initially I didn't take the, I didn't take the, um, promotion because I didn't feel comfortable saying at the time, it was mostly about like, I'm not gonna miss the church service. I didn't feel comfortable saying I need to be available. And that might mean I Ms. [00:32:57] Tony Arsenal: Church to, to be able to take this shift. Um, eventually the management adapted and said, well, we'll just figure out something else. We really want you to take the position, but that's the kind of question we have to ask. And then that same question, as you move up in an organization, it expands and you're more likely to need to be drawn away from Lord State worship or just general. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: Obligations on the Lord's Day. [00:33:20] Personal Experiences and Real-World Applications [00:33:20] Tony Arsenal: And I don't wanna make this entirely about the Lord's Day 'cause there are other obligations that Christians have and it probably will be interesting to get to those. But I think, um, the, the other thing maybe that I wanna push back on a little bit too is I. I, I've never been a CEO. [00:33:34] Tony Arsenal: I probably never will be a CEO. You're far closer to a CEO than I ever will be. But I think a lot of times we assume those positions have no flexibility. Right. But in reality, some of those people are absolutely able to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take Sunday, and just not. Yes, I'm not gonna do work on Sunday. [00:33:52] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna delegate that. You know? And then this is a whole other question. I'm gonna delegate that to someone else. Well, there's a whole different question that comes with that, but saying like, I'm just not going to do work on Sunday is actually within the options for a lot of positions. So that's the other question is when we take a position, do we have the option to set aside the Lord's Day? [00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: Even if we might acknowledge that occasionally, that's not gonna work out. There are oftentimes in all of our lives that we're drawn away from being able to fulfill our ordinary obligation of the Lord's Day, and I don't think that that's intrinsically sinful. If on a rare occasion you're not able to attend the Lord's Day worship or something like that. [00:34:29] Tony Arsenal: So I think those are questions we have to ask. Then what? What kind of other Christian obligations do we have? And this is hypothetical, but you're welcome to answer if you've got one in mind. Like what other kinds of Christian obligations do we have that any particular vocation or particular job might make difficult or impossible to fulfill? [00:34:47] Tony Arsenal: I think those are questions we have to ask. [00:34:49] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. And that's actually more where my mind goes because again, we've talked before and for some Christians it's easier to identify the stuff that certainly explicitly contravenes the Lord's Day. And I think it's more difficult to say like we, again, I think we talked before about that threefold responsibility and the vocation that is to like work that is like our industry, so to speak, and then to our household, then to our church. [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So the church often does. Again, in a very finely pointed way, connect very tightly with the Lord. Say what about that household stuff? Yeah. So what about these jobs that would just make you too busy? And I think like what's interesting to your point is I agree. Like I think part of this conversation is just a thoughtful assessment of what the job entails, and then even as like maybe you're taking a job or considering a job. [00:35:33] Jesse Schwamb: Having a conversation with your potential employer about what opportunity is there for flexibility given like certain convictions that you have? All of that could fall into place neatly and I think would still be within the bounds of yes, but I think part of this is if it's truly a calling that we, we have to be praying through it and assessing whether God is calling us through that. [00:35:50] Jesse Schwamb: Part of that is passing it through the sin of what the scriptures require in each of those threefold vocational responsibilities. So sometimes I hear there is like a pushback or counter, this argument says, but wouldn't it be better? [00:36:01] The Role of Christians in Leadership Positions [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: Wouldn't it be fantastic if you get a Christian as an opportunity to be a CEO? [00:36:05] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't it better for them to be a CEO and to be in that role, even if they're crazy busy, even if they're sacrificing so much for their family, for their household or for the church because they simply, they're gonna be a Christian and think of the role model and the emphasis and the impact they can have. [00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: And to that, I would say we gotta be really careful with that loved ones because God, I don't think God's calling us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is, is faithfulness. Invocation, invocation pulls us back into those three responsibilities, and we know the way in which God prefers to work His jam is these ordinary means, these natural ways of in the normative work of our lives and faithfulness showing that his power is demonstrated in this weakness. [00:36:44] Jesse Schwamb: Somehow we're back to the theology of. Glory and theology of cross. But you know, it's interesting to me that there are no calls like in the entire scriptures, of course, to withdraw into like a private ghetto or to take back the realms of cultural and political activity. And so I think we have to be really careful about even how we kind of pull that into then how. [00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: Our jobs that like, shouldn't it be my goal as a Christian to get as most influence as possible? And I think I wanna push back on that and say like, you know, the, the church, the Christian exists within the world as a community of word and sacrament. But it doesn't always have to seek influence in larger society. [00:37:19] Jesse Schwamb: It can. It can. And when God provides the opportunity by way of clear calling, I think internal and external that is appropriate. However, often that calling is gonna come at a much more normative level, I think. And, and I do not believe that we are somehow compromising or sub-optimizing the work that God does in the world merely because we might have a Christian that says, I don't know if it's right for me to be in this leadership role, and therefore a unbeliever is going to vault above that person's speaker or take that role on that somehow. [00:37:51] Jesse Schwamb: Again, God's superintendent will, or his strong arm is, is somehow pulled aback from what he wants to do that we need like more Christian plumbing in the world. I do kind of bristle that idea a little bit. Specifically because I wonder if sometimes we go outside of that calling. [00:38:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think, I think there's, um, it, it does all come back to theology, the cross theology of glory. [00:38:17] Tony Arsenal: And I'm glad that, that, that conversation happened before this. 'cause I think there's good framework there. I, I think, um, we, we as Christians can often confuse. The transformative power of the gospel with other ways of transforming culture. Yeah, that's good. Right. So, um, it is totally, um, I wanna be careful how I phrase this. [00:38:42] Tony Arsenal: I'm not post mill, I'm probably never gonna be post mill, but I'm okay with a kind of post mill theology that says that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as people become Christians, the culture will. Change along with that. And the gospel has a transformative power in that it changes individuals and individuals make up, make up the broader society. [00:39:05] Tony Arsenal: And so the society itself changes. Where I struggle with some flavors of postal theology, and this is where I think the theology of glory comes in, is there are some kinds of postal theology I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um, like Doug Wilson, they just, uh, opened A-C-R-A-C church in Washington, DC specifically with the goal of gaining influence with politicians. [00:39:26] Tony Arsenal: Right. I might be misconstruing that a little bit 'cause I haven't read all of it, but that's, that's the impression that I'm getting from some of their promotional material. I, I think we can, we can look at it and say the gospel can change culture as the gospel. And so where that. [00:39:43] Sacrifices and Priorities in Christian Vocation [00:39:43] Tony Arsenal: Levels of playing field is that whether you are, and this is where I think a genuine Protestant reform theology of vocation comes in, whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same. [00:39:58] Tony Arsenal: And you might have more people's ear as the CEO than you do as the janitor. Although I would maybe question that knowing how many people janitors interact with at the hospital, um, you may have more people's ears in a higher level position, but the message that you're proclaiming, the influence that you're wielding or you're using, I don't know what you wanna say. [00:40:18] Tony Arsenal: It's not different because it's still just the gospel. [00:40:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's good. [00:40:21] Tony Arsenal: Um. Where I think we can get confused is when we look at it and say, but we have these other opportunities to transfer, transform the culture by, um, for example, I, I'm the supervisor in my patient relations department. I'm making changes to the, to the policy and the way that we as a sort of service recovery resolution group, the way that we interact with patients, I'm making changes to that. [00:40:46] Tony Arsenal: I think those changes are consistent with the law of God as revealed in the light of nature, and I'm. I'm informed of those things and my whole outlook and ethos is shaped by the scriptures, but. I don't see the transformation of the way we interact with patients as somehow propagating the gospel, right? [00:41:05] Tony Arsenal: So we can, we can make transformation and make society better, right? If you're a politician, you can, you can legislate things that make society more outwardly in conformity with the law of God or more pleasant and more prosperous, and more flourishing, and those are all fine and well, but that's not. [00:41:21] Tony Arsenal: Building the kingdom of God in, in a strict sense. Right? And so I think what we're getting at is our, would it be great if, if, you know, the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. Sure of That'd be nice, of course. And yeah, they could probably do a lot of good things and they could probably shape the way that that business runs and they could probably, um, have more opportunities to share the gospel. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: They could probably shape their business into a vehicle that, that moves forward. Missions, all those things are great, but. If the trade off is that that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, right? That's not worth it. And I think we, we look at this and we might be able to identify certain. [00:42:00] Tony Arsenal: Obvious ways that we would say, no, it's not worth it. Right? If a CEO, uh, the CEO of a major retailer has to give way to all of the, um, transgender LGBT sexual, you know, identity politics has to give way to that in order to survive as CEO, I think we would all look at that and go, yeah, it's probably a hard sacrifice, but that's a sacrifice we would expect a genuine Christian to make at that level. [00:42:25] Tony Arsenal: Where we might not look at it is saying, well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you don't properly care for your family, then you're worse than an unbeliever. That's right. And so that CEO that is at the office for 70 hours a week and is never home, um, and their kids don't, you know, their kids don't have an opportunity to know their father or their mother because their. [00:42:44] Tony Arsenal: Constantly jet setting around the world. I don't know that we would as readily identify that as a sacrifice. I would actually argue that, that the Bible is probably clearer about that being a problem than it is about identity politics or other sort of, of social issues that, that, uh, a business person might have to. [00:43:04] Tony Arsenal: Hold their nose a little bit and, and, you know, sign off on a commercial or something that they don't necessarily want to, I'm not advocating that they should do that, but I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family. [00:43:20] Tony Arsenal: Or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day, um, or, or something like that. I think the Bible is clearer about that than it is on. Something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that, that might, might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level. [00:43:35] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think this is a, it's an interesting question that we probably don't think about it from the right angle most of the time. [00:43:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's just too easy to consider this in light of if we can get more responsibility, that should always be a good thing. And I think that proclivity is, is fine and maybe even noble, but sometimes I think we do get it twisted where we get this sense that we are trying to make the world into something moral like the church. [00:43:57] Jesse Schwamb: And if we could do that in our jobs and get the most influence in that greatest sphere of impact. We should always take on those additional responsibilities. And I do think we have to sit back and ask and say, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential. [00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: There's a lot of brilliant, God has made all kinds of brilliant people. Many of them are his children, and as a result of that, we might say like we should always again be trying to move up. And this is not to say that we shouldn't take great initiative, that we shouldn't want to try to do more and be more productive. [00:44:27] Jesse Schwamb: You and I have always been outspoken about that kind of thing, but I think there is a real temptation. To somehow say like, what we need to do is like to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things will, like, whether we wanna admit it or not, that things here will be better. [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: And I, I don't know all the time that what we're saying is what you just said, which was that what we're really concerned with is that the gospel get proclaimed more forthrightly. More loudly, more specifically, more cogently in all places. But that if we just had good examples of moral behavior and good character, yes, those things are profitable in and of their own ways, but there's also a lot of common grace we see God bring about good leaders who are not a Christian at high level to do that kind of thing. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes I do wonder, just depending on the job, quite honestly, whether it's really possible for Christian to be successful in that job. [00:45:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: As like the world or the industry or the company has defined it. I'm not sure that's the case, so I don't wanna put like too high a line on this. I think we're trying to just drop a bomb in some ways and say, I'm not gonna make it overly prescriptive and say like, as a Christian, you can't be a CEO. [00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: Move on. That's not true at all. Of course, again, here are hopefully what we said about the particulars of that wrestling through it and again. Really sensing where there's an actual call on your life that God has given for that role in a particular time. But I do think we ought to question where there's always and everywhere appropriate for any Christian to take on, quite frankly, any job. [00:45:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so I'm with you. Sometimes it's super easy when I first start out in banking, when I was looking for my second banking job. I had a great interview. It was a very nice company. The bank actually doesn't exist anymore, but, uh, one of the things, one of their big, like, kind of gimmicks was they were open seven days a week. [00:46:09] Jesse Schwamb: And so I said to them, well. I attend church on Sundays. That's my day of rest and my high conviction on that. And I said, is there any flexibility with that? And they said, Nope. You would still have to be on the schedule. And though they very graciously offered me the job, I was thankfully in a place where I, I turned that down. [00:46:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Actually I didn't have a job at the time, but I turned it down trusting. That God would provide. And this wasn't my great act of faith on my part. It was more of just, I think what you were saying, Tony, growing in our conviction that those things really do matter. Yes. And that it's sometimes just too easy to kind of push them aside and say, I, I know it's gonna be really stressful. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I know it might take much more of my time than I want to give. I know I might be at home a lot less. I know I might have less like attentional fortitude and space to think about my spouse or my children, but it's gonna be worth it because. I'll be able to like have this big influence. I do think sometimes madness lies that way. [00:47:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Certainly a great deal of foolishness. This is just hopefully a call for all of us as God's children to, to think through that. I don't wanna discourage anybody from taking on bigger and bolder things for the kingdom of God. I think we all have to think about what it is that we're. Promulgating or proclaiming when we talk about the Kingdom of God coming and whether or not we're just trying to make the world a better place, so to speak. [00:47:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. By bringing our like quote unquote Christian influence into a setting where really that influence is now particularly strong and what it's actually compromising is the vocation that we're meant to undertake. [00:47:37] Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions [00:47:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Are you ready to, for me to drop two bombs? Just, just straight up. You got, [00:47:41] Jesse Schwamb: you got two of them. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: Let's do it. I, I've [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: got 13 minutes or less left on this episode. There go. So I actually got into a pretty big, uh, like a pretty big dust up with someone way back in the day when I was in the reform hub over actually this topic. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier in the evening. Um, we are using like CEOs as like kind of the proxy for this, but there's all sorts of jobs where, um, your, your job may be admirable and it may be. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: Right. Even something that's sort of quote unquote necessary for society. But I got into a big dust up with someone who was an overroad trucker, right? And they were constantly, um, posting in the pub at, at back in the day. They were constantly posting how discouraged they were and, and how difficult their faith was and how much of a challenge it was to just remain faithful as a Christian. [00:48:27] Tony Arsenal: And I. Originally, I kind of naively and, and I think innocently said like, well, you know, like, have you talked to your pastor about this? And the person said like, well, I don't have a regular church because I'm always on the road. And I said like, well, there's your problem. Like there's the first step is like, figure out your local church thing. [00:48:43] Tony Arsenal: He said, well, I can't do that. And I said like, well then maybe you need to find a different profession if you're not able to attend church on a regular basis. And I wasn't even saying like. A hundred percent. I, I wasn't even like arguing Sabbath observance. I was just saying like, if you can't be in church on Sunday on, and I wasn't even saying like a church, like, if you can't be in any church on Sunday, then you need to find something else. [00:49:04] Tony Arsenal: And he got super, super mad. And when it, when we finally got down to like, what the issue was, he was saying like, well, I can't find another job that pays as well. Uh, I'm really sorry, but like, sometimes Christians have to sacrifice. Like sometimes you're not gonna get the best paying job because you can't, you can't. [00:49:21] Tony Arsenal: Have every week, like we could probably get better jobs if we were available on Sundays, just in, in the world we live in. So I think that's the first thing. It's like sometimes. You're gonna have to make sacrifices and it, it feels dumb to even have to say this. Like sometimes you're gonna have to make sacrifices to be a Christian. [00:49:39] Tony Arsenal: Like taking up your cross does not always mean you're being persecuted. Sometimes it means like you're not gonna be able to eat out as often because you don't have a job that pays as well because you're not able to work on Sunday. Right? Sometimes you have to live in a smaller house because you're doing something to make sure you've got proper budget or because you're giving more money to the church. [00:49:55] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Than is, is, you know. Normal for a patient, a person to do. Um, so that's the first bomb is like, sometimes you just have to suck it up and be a grownup and say like, this just isn't gonna be the right thing. And, and I might have to make a hard choice. And I think a lot of times these questions boil down to people not wanting to make the hard choice, not wanting to sacrifice their influence, their budget, their favorite, um, position, their prestige, whatever it might be. [00:50:22] Tony Arsenal: They just don't wanna give that up. And so they don't ask the question. And, and if they do. They justify ways to. Ignore the obvious answer, and, and this is why this was so offensive to this person, is because it was absolutely obvious to me that not only, not only one was his spiritual malaise and his spiritual depression directly caused by the fact that he was, uh. [00:50:47] Tony Arsenal: It was not in the church on the Lord's day basically, ever. But I had the gall to suggest that maybe he couldn't choose that profession because, because Christians are required to regularly participate in the Lord's Day service. So that's the first bomb. It's like if you're asking this question and you are like, oh man, I just can't, I just can't pass up this opportunity. [00:51:08] Tony Arsenal: I know that. I know that it means I'm only gonna see my kid like one day a week. 'cause I'm gonna be in a different market for the rest of the time. That's. Like, get over yourself. Like just get over yourself. That's just not what God calls Christians to do. God does not call Christians to be absentee parents, be absentee fathers or mothers or husbands or wives. [00:51:28] Tony Arsenal: That's just not within the scope of God's possible range for a Christian. It just isn't. And this is the second bomb, and it's related to that. There are actually a lot of quote unquote Christian vocations that do this to us. Right? One of my main criticisms. William Lane Craig, or other figures like him is, yes, William Lane. [00:51:49] Tony Arsenal: Craig's theology is just a total train wreck, but more problematic than that. More problematic than his bad theology. And I would say probably the cause of his bad theology is that his vocation, at least for a long time, his vocation was taking him away from being in the Lord's Day service for many, many weeks outta the year. [00:52:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, his, his activity as like a traveling debate or apologist. I, and I'm not making this statement about James White, but sometimes I look at the schedule that James White puts out for how often he is on the road in traveling, and I wonder how can you be an elder in the church and be gone from the church as often as he is now? [00:52:24] Tony Arsenal: Again, I don't know his schedule exhaustively, I'm just using that as a kind of gut level reaction. Um, I had a conversation with someone who was talking about being like a traveling missionary, and I was like, okay, so like, yeah. What does that look like to be in the Lord's in in the Lord's day? And he's like, well, I just won't be like, my ministry is, is gonna have to be sufficient for that. [00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: I was like, I, yeah, that's not the model of missions that the Bible presents. It doesn't present you as some lone ranger of Christians. So I think this question. Expands beyond just the influence question expands beyond just the, um, being a good parent question. It really is about like, what are your spiritual priorities? [00:53:01] Tony Arsenal: What do you think you're accomplishing with this, and how is it that it that comports or doesn't comport with basic Christian responsibilities? [00:53:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And neither of us is saying that those are easy questions to ask or easy decisions to make. They all involve or could involve at times, like major life changes, right? [00:53:20] Jesse Schwamb: I'm totally sensitive to that. I do think though, what God calls us to with these things make it all the while worth it in the end, and it is worthwhile kind of having, not just this discussion maybe with your friends, family, spouses, but just thinking through your own line of work. Where is it like when you think about. [00:53:36] Jesse Schwamb: At least in my organization, we have this annual process of thinking through what we've done, where we want to go, really, what our development wants to look like. And I was convicted recently. What do, how does that apply? Do I ever think about that in my, not just like spiritual, but my, my vocational development as a child of God? [00:53:52] Jesse Schwamb: What am I doing Well. What do I think I'm really falling down on? Where do I need God's help? Because I always need God's help in helping me to stay firm in that vocation that he's given me. And to reignite maybe, as it were, some of those initial fires and passions and loves that it gave me, in each of those three areas, we, I think should probably take stock of that more often. [00:54:12] Jesse Schwamb: And yeah, I'm gonna propose, Tony, if it's okay with you, I say. In our next conversation as we move ever closer to our whole new series, we're almost there, but why don't we talk next time we get together about ways? Then if we're saying like, Hey, listen, maybe your standing out at work has less to do with how, as a Christian with how high you can climb that ladder, or how much responsibility you have, or how large your voices, or even how respected you are. [00:54:37] Jesse Schwamb: But what if it's just about how you stand out in any kind of, in all the work that you're actually doing? How about we talk about that next time? [00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I think that'd be great. And maybe I'll close, um, maybe I'll close this week to wet everyone's appetite or, or I dunno. Maybe make everybody angry. I'm not sure which this will do. [00:54:53] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, um, I think a helpful heuristic question for this topic would be to think about when you are considering, let's say you get a job offer in a new town. You, you've been looking for jobs, you've been looking for work, and you get an offer and it's, it's the perfect offer and you investigate it. [00:55:12] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, let's say you're a parent and the, the town has good schools, the town has, you know, affordable housing. There's lots of opportunity. It's a thriving community. Lots of fun things to do. I know so many people that I've encountered online who. Take that job and then finding a local church as an afterthought. [00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: So [00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: how many of us, and I'll put myself in this, um, category, I've never had to face this question. Um, I've always, I've always, it's just always worked out that I've never had to face this question. How many of us. Would look and see and make a decision about whether to take that job based on whether there is a good Bible believing church that I can integrate myself into in a reasonable distance. [00:55:57] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that that is on the list of most people's questions, and I think it becomes an afterthought once they get to the region. They've moved in, they've started their new job, then they start to look for a church. I don't know anybody. I don't know anybody who asks when they're doing their job interview. [00:56:13] Tony Arsenal: I think a lot of people ask like, well, what are the schools like around here? What's housing like? I think if you're smart, if you're, if you're thinking through it, you ask those questions during your interview, you ask people in the interview like, how's the schools? How is the housing? What's the community like? [00:56:27] Tony Arsenal: Those are normal questions to ask. I don't think, I don't think most of us are gonna say like, can you tell me about the local churches? Can you gimme some information about what there are for local churches around here? That in my mind is like a microcosm of the question we're trying to ask here is, are we willing to put our Christian responsibility and obligations as the priority in relation to our profession and our vocation? [00:56:56] Tony Arsenal: I, I'm not sure a lot of us have thought through this wisely, so I'm glad we're gonna keep talking about this a little bit next week. I think it's a, a good conversation for us to have and I'm super excited to get into the next, uh, series. Oh, that's gonna be good Next week. Next week will be our last grab bank episode for quite some time. [00:57:12] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna talk about this. Um, but if you got a topic you really, really want us to talk about. It's not unheard of for Jesse and I to scrap affirmations and denials and take a little bit of time to talk through a listener question or to do a sort of a mini episode before we get into the main episode. [00:57:28] Tony Arsenal: So do join the telegram channel t me slash for brotherhood. There still is a topics channel. Uh, we would love for you to come, contribute your thoughts about what it is you'd like to hear us chat about. Um, and I, I'm just excited to keep going with this conversation. [00:57:40] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. And when that whole series is done, you know, like five or six years, the one that's coming up, it'll live where all the other episodes live. [00:57:48] Jesse Schwamb: And that is if you go to reform brotherhood.com, you can find all 400 and now 58 episodes living over there. We've referenced so many of the conversations we had already, and they're all searchable by the way, so you can go out and if you haven't heard them or you're going on a road trip, or you just like to hear more of our voices in more places, then there's a lot of great things to listen to out there. [00:58:12] Jesse Schwamb: And my bet is once you go out there and you check out the website, which is beautiful, you see all that great content that's out there, all these hours of conversation, which we hope are edifying to you encouraging, challenging, and hopefully get you to have some of your own conversations with others. [00:58:26] Jesse Schwamb: You're gonna be prone to think this one thing, which is how is it possible? Now all of this is just out on the interwebs for free. That is a great question and I'm glad you asked it so I didn't have to bring it up myself because that would've been way awkward. It's possible because there are brothers and sisters that after they have satisfied all of their giving responsibilities, taking care of their families, giving to their churches, both in their time and their other resources that they said, you know what? [00:58:50] Jesse Schwamb: I'd like to give a little bit toward the Reform Brotherhood podcast. If you're feeling like you've been blessed and you wanna do that. We have so many that give a little bit, and all of that goes a long way. And so if you're interested in hearing more about that, just go to patreon.com/reformed brotherhood patreon.com, four brotherhood, and that's where you tear down the Jericho Pay walls. [00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Everything that goes and is donated there goes right to the podcast to cover all of the fees to make sure that it keeps showing up free, that all of that content, which. When I think about Tony, that is so much content. I know, I know that is posted online now and just available to the world is remains free of charge without any kind of other subscription. [00:59:31] Jesse Schwamb: So freely we have received freely we wanna give and we're so thankful. I really am, from the bottom of my hearts thankful that everybody that gets into Telegram and participates, everybody that through patreon.com, back slash form Brotherhood gives everybody that's involved makes this happen. Yeah. It's not just you and me, of course. [00:59:48] Jesse Schwamb: It's all of us. Together. So we would love for you to join in that mission in giving, if that's something that you're able to do. [00:59:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, thanks for bringing this topic up. I'm super stoked for next week, and until next week, honor everyone. [01:00:03] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive deep into the intersection of pop culture, entertainment, and the Christian life. They explore how Christians can engage with leisure and media in a way that glorifies God, applying biblical principles like those found in 1 Corinthians 10:31 and Ecclesiastes 3. The hosts emphasize the importance of balancing Christian liberty and holiness, while also recognizing the practical role of rest and recreation in human flourishing. Through personal anecdotes and theological insights, they provide listeners with a framework for discerning entertainment choices, encouraging believers to enjoy God's good gifts without compromising their faith. Key Takeaways: Entertainment is a Gift from God: Leisure and entertainment, when approached rightly, are part of God's common grace meant to refresh and restore us. Biblical Principles for Consumption: 1 Corinthians 10:31 reminds Christians that all activities, including entertainment, should glorify God. If an activity cannot do so, it may be unlawful. Christian Liberty and Prudence: Decisions about pop culture often fall under the domain of Christian liberty, constrained by wisdom and prudence rather than legalistic rules. The Importance of Rest: Rest is not just about recharging for productivity; it is a God-given means of worship and human flourishing in its own right. Guarding Against Sinful Influences: Christians should be cautious of consuming media that promotes sin, as it can subtly shape their worldview and lead them astray. Personal Convictions and Context Matter: What is permissible for one believer may not be wise or beneficial for another, depending on individual struggles and contexts. Recreation Should Point Back to God: Whether through beauty, creativity, or storytelling, entertainment can lead Christians to worship God when consumed with discernment. Entertainment as a Gift from God Tony and Jesse emphasize that entertainment, when properly enjoyed, is a part of God's common grace. This means that activities like watching a movie, playing a video game, or reading a novel are not inherently sinful but can serve as vehicles for rest and refreshment. Drawing from Ecclesiastes 3, they highlight that God has ordained seasons for both work and rest. True rest, they argue, is not about escaping responsibilities but about enjoying God's gifts in ways that glorify Him and restore our energy to serve others. When approached with discernment, even "secular" forms of entertainment can reflect God's creativity and goodness. Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment The hosts discuss how 1 Corinthians 10:31 provides a litmus test for media consumption: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This principle challenges believers to ask whether their entertainment choices align with God's glory. For example, content that promotes or glamorizes sin—whether through violence, sexual immorality, or blasphemy—should give Christians pause. However, they also note that some depictions of sin in fiction can serve a redemptive purpose, such as illustrating the consequences of sin or the beauty of redemption. The key is to thoughtfully evaluate whether the media being consumed inclines the heart toward holiness or pulls it away from God. Christian Liberty and Prudence Tony and Jesse stress the importance of Christian liberty in deciding on entertainment choices, while cautioning against legalism. They explain that Christian liberty does not mean a license to sin but rather the freedom to make God-honoring decisions in areas where Scripture does not provide explicit commands. Prudence and wisdom must guide these decisions. For instance, a particular TV show or game may be permissible for one believer but harmful for another, depending on their personal struggles or circumstances. This underscores the need for self-awareness and reliance on the Holy Spirit to discern what is spiritually beneficial. Quotes: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. If we cannot glorify God in an activity, it's likely unlawful for us as Christians." – Jesse Schwamb "Recreation is not just about recharging for productivity; it has its own value in glorifying God and enjoying His good gifts." – Tony Arsenal "Every story worth telling reflects, in some way, the greatest story ever told: redemption through Christ." – Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript: [00:00:30] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:30] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 457 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:37] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where sound doctrine meets brotherly love. Hey brother. [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So we're in a whole series of little one-off conversations, all kinds of things that just pop into our head, or we've had on a list somewhere that we thought, you know what? [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Someday we should talk about that. And I think we've got another great. Conversation coming up on this episode, we're gonna get into a little bit about how Christians should interact with and consume pop culture maybe, and especially things like entertainment. And I know that there are gonna be people out there thinking, wow, these guys are gonna do what reform people always do. [00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: They're just gonna come out into their lawn, they're gonna shake their fists angrily at the sky, they're gonna yell at the birds. It might not be that way, loved ones, but you're gonna have to wait. We're gonna talk about it. It's gonna be good. We're gonna get after it. We all do it. Everybody loves a bit of a to consume pop culture. [00:01:31] Jesse Schwamb: Is it possible it might be somewhat of a gift that God has given us? Who knows? Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but we'll get to that. But first, let's affirm with or denying against something in the world. So what have you got for us on this episode, Tony? [00:01:45] Tony's Frustrating Customer Service Experience [00:01:45] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna keep mine super short. It was a frustrating customer service experience, uh, that I had today. [00:01:52] Tony Arsenal: In general, I, I have, uh, Comcast or Xfinity Internet in general. I'm actually very pleased. Their service. Um, I, I actually find them to be responsive. Um, I've managed to get a decent price. I don't have Comcast television, so that's probably part of it. Um, but I, my cable modem. Slash router, which I've had, I don't know, probably for like eight years. [00:02:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, it finally died, so I bit the bullet and bought a brand new one. And those man, those things have gotten expensive and um, you know, it's supposed to be a super easy installation. You plug it in, you do the little thing on the app and it didn't work. So I had to connect with customer service through the app, and. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: It seemed like everything was going fine. And then all of a sudden I get a link in my text message and the lady who's chatting with me on the thing says, well just, just scroll down and click on where it says accept and then hit okay. And I was like, that seems sketchy. So I read it and she was, she had sent me a link to change my internet service. [00:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Uh, she was giving me a 90, an $80 promotional price for the first year. Uh, but then it went up to $140 after the first year. Wow. So I went back to the chat app and I said, I'm sorry, I, I must have miscommunicated something. I don't need to change my service. I just need to activate my modem. She said, oh, no, no, you're not changing your service. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: And I said, no, I, I definitely am. She goes, let me explain this to you. And she went through and tried, like, she went through and she's like, your speed is this and you're paying this. And I said, and I said, with all due respect, I'm not stupid. I can see that you're trying to change my service and I'm just not interested. [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: And I had to fight with her for like 10 minutes before I finally said, just activate my modem, please. I'm not interested. Full stop. So I, I guess I'm just denying. I get, I get it. Like, you gotta try to upsell. I used to be in sales. I don't have any problem with you trying to upsell. I, I don't even necessarily have a problem with you trying to be clever and like, you know, intentional about how you upsell. [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Like there are ways that you can do that without being deceptive. This was just deceptive. So I'm not denying Comcast. I'm pleased with my service. I'm denying this particular person and this really just underhanded tactic. It was really, really upsetting. I mean, [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: there is nothing like good customer service, right? [00:04:04] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the converse of that is what a blessing it is, and it's kind of a lesson to all of us and how we treat one another. That is whether we're providing the service or we ourselves are consuming it. It is just such a blessing. It's like so easy and so light when you get somebody who really wants to help you. [00:04:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And. You know, I would not have changed my service, but I can imagine that somebody who was looking and was interested, if she had just said straightforwardly, like your internet that you have is far slower than the modem that you're, you're installing, right? Um, we can get you a faster internet speed and give you a, a large discount for the first year. [00:04:42] Tony Arsenal: Are you interested in that? I think a good portion of people would just say yes. Even if they didn't think it through, they would just say, oh yeah, sure. Faster speed, less money. They, they wouldn't think it through. That's not deceptive. If you present an option, honestly, to a consumer and they take it and they didn't understand the terms, that's not deception. [00:04:58] Tony Arsenal: That's on them as the consumer for not thinking through what they're purchasing. This was just straight out, like, don't read it, just click on it, it's fine. Totally underhanded, deceptive. Um, and, and you know, I work in. Sort of a kind of customer service and I just can't imagine ever doing something that shady and calling it customer service. [00:05:15] Tony Arsenal: I was, I was very disappointed. [00:05:17] Jesse Schwamb: But I mean, everybody has customers, right? Yeah. Everybody has somebody they're responsible to, and everybody has people to whom they should be responsible in the kind of care. Whatever you provide to somebody, whether it's your family, it's in your church, it's in your job, so, right. [00:05:30] Jesse Schwamb: I like that. It's a good reminder because again, there's nothing like walking away from experience and being like, wow, that was so easy, or that person was so good to help me. Yeah. Or like they really got me to the end that I was looking for and they did it and I felt better afterwards than I did before I called. [00:05:43] Jesse Schwamb: That should be like our goal, like what does great look like in every interaction that we can have with somebody. [00:05:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:05:52] Jesse's Affirmation: The Plana App for Plant Care [00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going back to the app. Well, and by that was a really weird saying of just, I'm gonna affirm with another app. So I really love a good house plant, but I'm no good at the house plants. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: I really like the way they look. It's a lot of pressure with house plans. Maybe people feel this way. Maybe you've not purchased a house plant or been like, I can't be that person. So here's something that I can confirm with for you. Loved one, it's a app called Plana. It's a Swedish plant care app, and it's designed to help both like novice people like me and I guess really experienced plant owners keep their house and garden plants healthy, which I know sounds super boring, but hear me out on this. [00:06:27] Jesse Schwamb: This is what's cool about this. It offers smart, personalized care reminders for things like watering, fertilizing, misting, repotting, and it has all these things where if you, there's paid subscription for this as well, which I do not have, but I looked at all the options. There's some super cool things like you can use your phone to sense where your plan is sitting, how much light it's getting to really tell you, is this the right spot for my plant? [00:06:49] Jesse Schwamb: Because you know, like some plants are like, we need partial sunlight and partial shade and afternoon sun and direct sun, and you need to water me, but not too much and not so often, but just the right amount. It's a lot of pressure. So it's got all these fun features in it, including like an AI doctor. So you can take a look or a picture of your plant rather, and not only will it describe what plants you have, of course, but it will help you say like, Hey, this thing is not healthy. [00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what you should do. So the plant app is, might be your foray into feeling more confident about having some greenery in your house. [00:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, I could kill a plastic plant. I could kill like a fake plant, uh, without trying, uh, but I might check this out. You, you've seen my, my home. You've been here? [00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Um, my, my house is, it's a, a mobile home and so it's, it's just one long line and it's situated like almost directly east, west. So I get direct sunlight over the top of the house pretty much the entire day. And we have really beautiful, um. Violet cone plants and some other like lilies on one end of the house, um, that the previous owner planted. [00:07:46] Tony Arsenal: They're very beautiful, but um, they just get baked in the sun and there's gotta be something that can be done to sort of help them through this. Maybe it's more water or something like that. So maybe I'll check this out and see if that can help. 'cause they're not, they're not doing great. Um, they, they didn't bloom very well this year. [00:08:00] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm wondering if it might be, I dunno, it's been kind of dry, um, this part of the year, more than usual, so I'll check that out. That sounds like a good recommendation. There's a couple of different apps. This one sounds good. [00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, there's certainly a lot of stuff that you can get free in it. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, they want to upsell you like you just talked about. They're, no, no, they're no Comcast, but they definitely would like you to purchase all their other features, and I bet for the right person, it's totally worth it. But I feel so much more confident now. Mainly just the watering. If you surprised how like much pressure. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, like aloe plants and also I'm learning the names of my plants finally, which makes me feel more connected. This, this is, listen, this is like the app to help you take dominion in your house over house plants, which sounds like the lowest form of taking dominion, but honestly still shows how complex and complicated life can be and how God has made everything in this really wonderful way. [00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm feeling more empowered to love my plants and to hopefully keep them growing. I was gonna say for generations, but I doubt that I'll be passing on links, plants for generations, but hopefully getting just lots more greenery into our living spaces, which is always super fun. [00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I would like to have more plants, but I just, with between toddlers and dogs and my ability to kill anything green that is in my home, uh, I don't think it would be good. [00:09:19] Tony Arsenal: That's your, your sister who is My wife does a good job with plants, but even the, yeah, she does, even, even that the plants die just because they're around me. I'm not sure what it is. I have like a, I hear it, listen, an aura of some sort that just kills plants. [00:09:32] Discussing Christians and Pop Culture [00:09:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's difficult sometimes to grow in soil, which is, I, one of the things I presume Christians often feel like when they're in the culture and when, mm-hmm. [00:09:41] Jesse Schwamb: Do. Do you like that segue? We're so good with this. I do. And when you are consuming, let me say pop culture, or you find yourself in a place where you want entertainment and you want to rest, and I think if you're a Christian for any length of time, you start to ask yourself, okay, so what's my place in all of this? [00:09:59] Jesse Schwamb: And what's interesting when I thought about this topic, which you graciously put forward for us, was that I think several times we've mentioned kind of cultural things often in the affirmation and denial section. Yeah. Where we've. Maybe come hard alongside something and said, this seems good. And other times we've definitely said, this seems very, very bad. [00:10:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But we've never really had just a pretty honest conversation about, okay, so how does the Christian discern, what is the Christian's role in making that discernment? And how can we, like our house plants grow and flourish in that kind of environment to such a degree that we are actually bearing fruit by the power of the Holy Spirit. [00:10:36] Jesse Schwamb: And yet, of course, separate. From that culture in which we still find ourselves. [00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it bears saying, um, much of popular culture, media, whatever it might be, a lot of it is going to be a matter of Christian prudence and liberty. And I think it's important to say that because I think, you know, we'll talk about, we'll probably talk about like principles we use to try to determine whether we, you know, individually or, or whatever. [00:11:04] Tony Arsenal: We're going to watch something or listen to something, but. The, the Bible doesn't say like thou shalt, and I'm gonna say this example, and it's a little bit ironic because this is actually a show that I think is pretty black and white. But it, it's not like the Bible says, thou shalt not watch Game of Thrones. [00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. Um. Right. Like thou shalt not. Listen to, I don't know who the kids are listening to. Britney Spears like tells you when The last time I listened to popular music was, is Britney Spears is the name on my mind. But like thou shalt not listen to, I dunno, Paramore, I don't know name. Name your pop culture band. [00:11:37] Tony Arsenal: The Bible doesn't give us explicit instructions about specific bands. Movies, shows, insert, pop, you know, novels, whatever it might be. It does give us some wisdom principles. And then of course, there's God's moral law, uh, but even God's moral law does not. Necessarily apply directly to every pop culture choice we might make. [00:12:04] Tony Arsenal: So I'm sure Jesse and I don't have identical opinions. I'm gonna guess that our thoughts are probably pretty close just because, you know, we're influenced by the same people and we, we are running in the same broader theological circles, but they're probably not identical. There are probably things that Jesse would watch that I'd go, oh, I don't know if that's such a great thing for me. [00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: And there's probably things I would feel comfortable with that Jesse might say, eh, I'm not so sure about that. This is usually a matter of Christian liberty constrained by Christian prudence and wisdom. So before we get into any of the nitty gritty or any specific talk of anything particular, I wanna get that out there because yes, we have to be wise, we have to. [00:12:44] Tony Arsenal: Apply God's law, but we are not able to bind other people's conscience and you are not able to bind other people's conscience based on your own particular opinion about something or your own interpretation of how the Bible is to be applied to a particular decision. Um. You know, again, you can speak into a situation. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: You, especially if you have a relationship with someone, you can say, Hey, I don't think this is healthy. I don't think this is in conformity with God's law, but at the end of the day, that is between that Christian and God as to whether or not they are applying God's law appropriately and, and in to an extent, and to a great extent between them and their elders. [00:13:21] Tony Arsenal: Right? The elders have a, a different role of authority in a, in a Christian's life than other Christians do. And [00:13:27] Jesse Schwamb: it might be worth saying as we begin that we're kind of talking about this, I think in part because we all feel that pull to consume pop culture, and what I kind of teased at the beginning is this idea, is it possible that, I think we're really speaking about consuming that in a kind of a way of entertainment of like rest and relaxation. [00:13:45] Jesse Schwamb: Principally there. There are other reasons I think as well, and that might be to edify, to educate, but I think principally when we feel this compulsion to say, well, I like you, just give great examples. Listen to music, watch a sporting event, watch tv, read something fiction or nonfiction. I think what we're after there is this idea that we want to rest and that understanding that entertainment is a part of the rest that God intends for us to enjoy from our labors is by itself, full stop, a legitimate thing. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: So the question is. A little bit more nuanced. Where is that line? You already gave, I think a pretty good example of something that you and I would agree on would say that that's a bridge to fight across. Don't watch that thing, right? Yeah, do something else. But the question is how did we get to that place in making that judgment? [00:14:28] Jesse Schwamb: And is there a place in there where we would say, well, the Bible is an explicit about, let's say certain medium or even like specific things within that medium that it is outspoken enough that we ought to say. No, we will not do that. So I think this is what we're after in part, is this proper use of entertainment involving, of course, analyzing worldviews, appreciating elements of beauty and creativity, acknowledging reflections of truth. [00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: But that also that in some way, all of this is God's gift to us. That while the Bible does not give us a great deal of explicit statements about how believers are to view entertainment, there is much we can draw out to scripture by way of good and necessary consequence to borrow language from somewhere else. [00:15:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:15:11] Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment Choices [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: And I also think too, like this is a question that often is presented as very simple and very like cut and dry, but it can be a lot more complicated than you think. And here's an example, and we don't have to get into this particular example, but let's do it. You know, I think a lot of times people, um, will take the example of blasphemy. [00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: Right, and a show that is, or a, a video game, whatever it is, content that is intentionally blaspheming, God is something that at a bare minimum, Christians should be very wary of participating in and consuming just because it, it's something that openly dishonors God is probably not something Christians should be eager to participate in or to consume, but. [00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, there, there are instances where a, a show or a, a video game or a book contains a fictionalized blast swimming of God that actually may serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. So if you think of like, um. Think of a, a book or a a movie where there is a character who is a non-Christian, and over the course of the book, they are shown to be blaspheming God, and then they experience a conversion. [00:16:24] Tony Arsenal: And the purpose of the, the purpose of the book is to glorify God through this conversion redemption story. That it character in that fictionalized universe is blasphemy God within that universe, right? Or within that fictionalized story. But the purpose of that blasphemy is actually to serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. [00:16:46] Tony Arsenal: So that's not to say that automatically anything like that gets a pass, right? That can be done well, that can be done poorly. That can be done in a way that actually glorifies God. It can be done in a way that doesn't actually hit the mark. But it's not as simple as to say, this character in this show. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: Engaged in blasphemy. Therefore, we should never consume that show. We have to do some actual thinking and some actual analysis of what's going on in order to. Understand whether or not it actually is violating God's law. Now there are probably some things, um, you know, like graphic sex scenes. There's really no reason, um, for Christians to feel drawn to shows that contain that. [00:17:25] Tony Arsenal: Again, this is, this is, um, I, I, at this point in my life and I, in earlier periods in my life, I might have been more black and white on this. I am not here to tell you what you can and can't watch. That's not my role. I'm not the Holy Spirit. I'm not your pastor. I'm not any of the persons or people who have an obligation to tell you what is or isn't, right? [00:17:46] Tony Arsenal: Like I'm not that person. But I cannot think of personally a reason why a Christian would, would need to, or should ever participate in like enjoying a show that contains graphic sex scenes. Um. The people making those have to sin in order to make those scenes right. So there are, there are things we should consider. [00:18:12] Tony Arsenal: Are kind of always off board, right? It's always off board to do physical harm to somebody in the service of making a movie, right? So if you have a movie where people are, are actively trying to hurt each other in order to produce the film, I'm not sure that we should participate in that. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I knew that was going on in a film. [00:18:28] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I don't, you know, again, other Christians might, and we can have a conversation about that, but we have to think about those things. Do the actors. Do the people who are creating the content, do they have to sin in order to create it? If that, if the answer is yes, we as Christians, I think should be extremely, extremely wary of, of even watching or consuming those things. [00:18:49] Tony Arsenal: So those are the kinds of questions and situations that I think need to be list like thought about as we approach pop culture. But I also think, Jesse, you know, you made the point to that. Popular culture, entertainment broadly is a gift from God for us to enjoy. Right? And it's okay to enjoy it. It's okay for us to participate in that. [00:19:09] Tony Arsenal: You know, we're not, we're not the people who are gonna say to you like, well, you know, every minute you spend, uh, reading, I don't know, uh, reading will of the many, every minute you spend reading Will of the many you could spend witnessing to people, right? So therefore, you should never read Will of the many or The Hobbit or whatever it might be. [00:19:27] Tony Arsenal: Um, but we should think carefully about what we consume, how much of it we consume, when we consume it, all those are questions that the Christian needs to ask themselves. [00:19:35] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think the broad test here is actually not that difficult to comprehend. It's probably more that we sometimes hesitate to apply it because we're afraid of what it might mean for the stuff that we're consuming. [00:19:46] Jesse Schwamb: So again, like ceasing from our work in order to rest holds us together like that, that is something that God gives us as a pattern relaxation that we should take joy in. It must be the right amounts of lawful entertainment or consumption of all of this stuff in pop culture, but it is there. I think like even God gives it our own cultures as a means for us to find that kind of rest and to find some comradery and solidarity even with those in whom we interact and live with. [00:20:13] Jesse Schwamb: I think all of that's fine. Like you've said, it gets a little tricky when we start thinking about, well, where is that appropriate line? What is our conviction? But I think part of the problem with that is that we might not be seeking out conviction for ourselves. We not be asking because we hate to find that there is conviction in things that we're watching because there's gonna be a lot of things'. [00:20:31] Jesse Schwamb: That society's gonna be preoccupied with for entertainment for its own sake. And again, it's an indicator that everybody, men and women, even children, are seeking rest from the burden of their work and that rest is okay. Even that itself, like you're saying, Tony, it's interesting. I think so much we're gonna come back to is this idea of it. [00:20:47] Jesse Schwamb: Is, are we redeeming what we're doing in this process? Are we being not just thoughtful about discerning, adjudicating, or interrogating what we're watching and listening and reading, but as we do it, are we thoughtful people? Are we seeing the themes even in those joyous things that we find as entertainment that draw us back to the goodness of God that explains something about the world he's created or his own character finding? [00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, that in every story is just a reflection of the greatest story ever told. Like, yeah, all of those themes, all the things we are drawn to that we gravitate towards. That move us. All of those things still come from God. And so therefore, even our entertainment can serve this purpose of not just alleviating our minds and bodies from the burden of ongoing labor in a fallen world, but can also draw, draw us back to God's common grace and his particular grace for his people who are always sinners. [00:21:34] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the the first test. I think it's the most simple one. And everybody's gonna throw their listening devices at the wall because it's the one that's the most straightforward. It's the one you might've been thinking you're gonna get to eventually, and let's just get it out of the way. I don't say that because it's not worthwhile. [00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: I say it because it's exactly the kind of worthwhile test that we should apply, and it applies perfectly in every situation. And that's the Apostle Paul setting out in one Corinthians 10 31. Here it is. This is like. You know, top 20 reform verses whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. [00:22:07] Jesse Schwamb: So the beauty of this is I think just first pass, first blush, top of the house. If we cannot engage in an entertaining activity in such a way as to glorify God, then it's just unlawful. And by way of contrast, if you can, then we're justified in viewing it as a gift of God's common grace. I, I just throw it out there to start with. [00:22:26] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that it's not that we found that this particular test has been tried and left wanting, but rather we haven't tried it very well. Oftentimes. Yeah. At least for my own sake. And instead we say, well, the Bible just isn't clear. But if you're, watch your point, Tony. If you're watching something that is gratuitous in any way, and you stop and say. [00:22:44] Jesse Schwamb: Am I glorifying God in the consumption of this? I think it's really difficult to make a strong argument that in some way you are actively, not just passively and saying like, well, it's okay and there's gonna be a redeeming story plot in here somewhere, I hope. But are we actively, whenever, whenever we're doing or we're consuming these things, are we actually glorifying God? [00:23:02] Jesse Schwamb: Is God glorified in. What's happening with my mind, my thoughts, my body, my eyes, my conversations, how this shapes me, how this changes my worldview. If we have to answer that God is not glorified there, then to my view, it's unlawful. And I think also in the eyes of the Apostle Paul. [00:23:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:23:20] Personal Convictions and Christian Liberty [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think something that is important to, um. [00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: Comment on and think about when we sort of apply that test, that test really has more to do with what's going on in our heart. Yes. When we are consuming any particular part, you know, any particular media than it necessarily has to do with the media itself. I think there are some things, um, that. Just cannot be consumed to the glory of God. [00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: Right? You can't watch pornography to the glory of God, like you just can't do it. Um, you can't, you can't watch people murder each other for, you know, to the glory of God. But the vast majority of things that are out there, um, the, the, the question you're asking is not primarily grounded in the content itself. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's grounded in. What the content does to us and in us and how we process it. And I think that's why I, you know, I always wanna say for most things, this goes back to Christian Liberty and. Christian Liberty is not a license to sin. It's, it's a freedom to, um, to obey, right? It's a freedom and it's a range of possibilities to obey God in different ways, in different situations, rather than some tightly constrained, tightly restricted behavioral code, right? [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: There is a law. God gives us a law. We talked about this at length when we did the 10 commandment series. He gives us a law, but this law is a set of 10 principles for godly living. Not a, an exhaustive list of do this, don't do that. Right? So the seventh commandment, you know, for media. Is this inclining my mind towards chastity and purity of thought, right? [00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: For those of us who are married, is this likely to, um, create a barrier in my relationship with my wife, or is this likely to enhance the relationship I have with my wife? Is this. Particular thing I'm doing, this video game that I play, is this likely to draw my attention away from my children when they need me? [00:25:19] Tony Arsenal: Or is it something that I have that is likely to increase my ability to pay attention to my children? Or am I able to properly balance the demands that my children have and the needs my children have while I still play this video game, just as an example. So we can still use those 10 principles to help guide us, but the way that those. [00:25:38] Tony Arsenal: The way that the law is applied to these questions and how it is, is gonna be unique, I think almost, almost across the board for things. It's gonna be unique to each individual, right? One person may be able to, yeah, like my big thing and I like, okay, I'm just gonna put this out there. I'm just gonna lay myself bare here. [00:25:55] Tony Arsenal: If I could say that I have one actual real addiction in life, it's probably World of Warcraft, and I know that sounds probably really silly, but even me saying and saying the phrase World of Warcraft, in my mind I'm like, could I figure out a way that I could go back in and play that game? Like they call it World of Warcraft for a reason. [00:26:14] Tony Arsenal: It is super addictive and it's very easy to fall back into it. I'm sure there are people out there who can perfectly just fine, could manage their life of having children and a wife and a job and, you know, service to the church and still play World of Warcraft for a couple hours a week or, or an hour every night and still be just fine. [00:26:33] Tony Arsenal: I cannot do that. If I subscribe to World of Warcraft, it will imbalance my life such that something that God is calling me to, that I know God is calling me to, is going to be pushed out of the way for that. So for me. I cannot fulfill my obligations and participate in that particular element of pop culture. [00:26:52] Tony Arsenal: And I think there's probably something like that for most of us. Again, someone else may be able to do that just fine. There are probably many people who can do that just fine. That's a problem in my own heart. And the way I address that is by saying, this is just not healthy for me, so I'm not gonna do it. [00:27:05] Tony Arsenal: And whether that's a TV show or a a book series. I know people who won't read certain books because they get so immersed in it and it sort of like shapes their worldview in really unhealthy ways. They just won't pick up a particular set of novels or a particular book series. Um, you know, I've told this story that I, I don't remember where I was flying. [00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Um, it wasn't. I must have been flying to Minnesota. That's the only place I've traveled by air for quite a long time. Um, I stopped in the, the bookstore, the, you know, the, the souvenir store, whatever. And I forgot a, I forgot a book at home of all the people to forget a book. And I was like, you know, there's this big hub lu about Game of Thrones and you know, maybe the book is better than the show. [00:27:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, you know, I can control what I'm imagining and it's easier for me to skip over parts and nobody is having to make graphic sex scenes. Even if they're sort of portrayed in the book. I can maybe do this. I got like. A chapter and a half into the book and was like, I can't, this is not healthy for me. [00:27:57] Tony Arsenal: It's not helpful. It doesn't glorify God. It's not true. It's not noble, it's not honorable, it's not worthy of praise. Right. I'm just gonna, and I just threw the book away. I spent like $15 on a book and then I just threw it in the garbage. Um, and I don't say that to like prop myself up as some bastion of self control. [00:28:10] Tony Arsenal: That's just in that moment I made the right decision. But there are things like that, that you are gonna have to look at your own self to say, I cannot participate in this, even if someone else might be able to. I personally cannot. And I think that's really the more the question we need to ask then. Are there universal principles that say, I can't do A, B, or C? [00:28:30] Tony Arsenal: It's really about my heart in the moment and how my heart is affected by a given thing. [00:28:36] Jesse Schwamb: Much like the 10 Commandments. This whole conversation in the scriptural, I think admonishment here is very much about freeing us up to enjoy freedom, to have joy in these things. It's not about just saying, well, here's a list of things that you can't do. [00:28:51] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't that unfortunate? Everybody else can do them, but you can't enjoy them. Instead, Scott saying like you're talking about Tony, no put to death all these evil, selfish things that are in your life that actually destruct. And instead, enjoy entertainment and pop culture in such a way that not only glorifies him, but does truly refresh you so that you're not drawn back into patterns of selfish behavior or sinful thinking, or all kinds of, you know, sexual frivolity that's going to lead your mind and your body and your heart astray or into places that you'll end up getting hurt. [00:29:25] Jesse Schwamb: I think. The beauty of this is it just provides us with a way to think and discern about the stuff that we're consuming so that we're ensured. Then it's fulfilling the right purpose that God has for in our lives, and that's freeing. When you get to a place where the scripture says like, here's the way walking it, then you know that you can walk confidently and you can enjoy that very thing. [00:29:46] Jesse Schwamb: One great example, I think that sit on both sides, we can talk about in some ways how there's like a, a lack of, or like kinda a, a moral perspective with certain types of medium of expression. One of those I think famously is, is music. Luther famously said, musical performance is principle among the entertainment that God has graciously given us to enjoy in life. [00:30:06] Jesse Schwamb: And yet who hasn't been part of either music that has been absolutely refreshing, absolutely life-giving, absolutely calming and beautiful in the same way that like David played before King Saul when he was distressed. And maybe you've had this experience where there's some kind of soothing melody that was just a bomb to your soul and your condition in that state. [00:30:25] Jesse Schwamb: And then also. On the other side, who hasn't listened even to some really catchy music that's been filled with like sexual perversion, misogyny, violence themes that at the end of it, you may have enjoyed the beat, but it's, it's just left you kind of feeling gross. And disgusted. Yeah. Even with yourself for enjoying it. [00:30:45] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that's what we're after here is like to be freed up to enjoy this kind of entertainment in a way that it is truly the gift that God has given rather than something that enslaves us. And I'm gonna argue that it often does. Not because it's just addictive, though. [00:30:59] The Influence of Entertainment on Our Lives [00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: It can be, but because it does actually influence us deeply and, and I think one thing is clear is that all the things we're talking about here that's present in entertainment, and I'm talking all the way back to things like athletic performance, all of this beauty and creativity, art expressed both in film literature and in music, that all of those things God has given us for our good and for his glory. [00:31:22] Jesse Schwamb: So he wants us to enjoy them. But sin is of course gonna take all those things and pervert them and twist them in such a way that they no longer become life-giving or become life taking. The problem is they take life incrementally and on the margin. Yeah. And so that you rarely feel that that's going on. [00:31:37] Jesse Schwamb: You rarely sense the divide of the chasm that's creating in your thought patterns, in the way that you interact with people, even the way that you interact with God until, not that it's too late, but that's, you wake up and you think, my goodness, how far have I gone from what I think this is really intended to be in my life? [00:31:52] Jesse Schwamb: Then maybe addiction does crop up in such a place that you're like this. This has gone too far. But I think, again, like many things in life, when God says no, what he's saying is, do not hurt yourself. I know better. I want you to enjoy these things. So I see this as like our opportunity to like empower to come with the scriptures, bearing full weights on what we consume, not because we need more laundry lists of things to avoid, but because we need direction on what is best to sink our entertainment time and resources into. [00:32:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I, I think that's a good, um, that's a good, maybe a next test right? [00:32:25] Balancing Time and Entertainment Choices [00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: Is we only have a finite amount of time. We, we, and, and I'm not even just talking about like in general, we have a, I'm, I'm talking about like we have a finite amount of discretionary time. We all have commitments, we have jobs, we have families, we have church commitments, we have friends that we wanna maintain relationships with. [00:32:43] Tony Arsenal: The amount of time we have to just like sit down and consume pop culture is limited no matter, no matter who you are. Some people have more, some people have less. Um, we can consume. Ev, every time we say yes to one thing, we're saying no to another thing, right? There is, um, there is popular culture or content out there that absolutely is encouraging, right? [00:33:05] Tony Arsenal: And absolutely is going to enhance your life, and it's going to enhance your piety and your devotion to God, right? And I'm not just talking about like Christian content. There's decent Christian content out there. There's decent Christian films, there's decent Christian music, there's decent Christian fiction writing. [00:33:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there's probably even decent Christian video games, although I haven't run into them, I'm sure they're out there. Um. But that's not even what I'm talking about. [00:33:30] Finding Value in Non-Christian Content [00:33:30] Tony Arsenal: There there are, there are non quote, non-Christian, um, right there. There's General grace. Common grace works out there that will, they'll, they'll make you smarter. [00:33:41] Tony Arsenal: It will make you healthier. It'll help you enhance your life. It'll help you enjoy your world more. It'll help you enjoy and see the beauty in God's creation. More I've, I've commented, um. At length, and this isn't necessarily pop culture, although it kind of bridges the gap a little bit. I've commented at length on how beneficial in my life, Ryan holiday's, writings have been. [00:33:58] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. That's what he doesn't get everything right. There are some things he gets very wrong, um, but. I, I read, um, Ryan Holiday's, stoic. Stoic Works, and I wouldn't say he's a scholar of stoicism. He's more like a modern day stoic philosopher. I read his works and I benefit from him. It makes my life better. [00:34:17] Tony Arsenal: It makes my devotion to God better. It makes my piety better. It makes me a better husband and a better father, and a better employee just in general. It makes me a better person. Not because Ryan Holiday is some special thing, but because he seems to have tapped into common grace principles that other writers haven't, I have a choice. [00:34:33] Tony Arsenal: You know? Do I wanna read that or do I wanna read some? Um, and don't get me wrong, I enjoy manga, but like, do I wanna read some. Meaningless, pointless manga that is just the same story over and over again with different animation. You know, some people might find that the reading the manga is the right thing for them and that enhances their life. [00:34:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? But for me, I've had to make that calculation. I only have so much time. I only have so much time to read. Um, and, and this is might be a shock to people. There are times where I'll have the decision between reading a theology book and. Being caught up on my reading in Daily Stoic, I most often will take time to read the Daily Stoic instead of reading something. [00:35:10] Tony Arsenal: For example, I'm way behind on Daily Devotion or Daily Doctrine by Kevin De Young Way Behind, but I'm not behind on, on Daily Dad or daily Stoic from Ryan Holiday. That's not because one, one thing is better than the other necessarily, but what I need in my life and what God is calling me to. The writings by di by Ryan Holiday right now are more effective in a, in accomplishing those tasks and into shaping me into who I believe God wants me to be. [00:35:37] Tony Arsenal: So that's the other question we have to ask is what? [00:35:40] The Importance of Rest and Leisure [00:35:40] Tony Arsenal: What is the most beneficial thing for us at the moment? It could be some sort of mindless cotton, candy entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that. This isn't, this isn't me saying like find, this isn't like hustle culture for pop culture. Like sometimes you just need to veg out and do something that doesn't require any brain power, and that's what God is, is giving you as a gift for your rest and your re recuperation. [00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes it's a hard hitting. Heavy theology. Sometimes you need to sit down and read some Bob Ink again, not that that's pop culture, but I think the broader principle applies. Maybe you need to sit down and read some Turin, or maybe you need to like scroll Instagram for a little while and watch funny cat videos, right? [00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are good things. They're all gifts from God in the proper proportions and at the proper time, and that's why this can be such a complicated question is because we have to have a good, robust. Honest reflection of who we are and what we need in order to make these, these decisions. Um, and it really is about what do we need in the moment? [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: What is God calling us to? What is the wise thing to do right now, the wise thing to consume right now? Um, and, and I think that's a good test. Is this the most effective thing and accomplishing in my life what needs to be accomplished, right? That could be all sorts of goals, but is this the most effective thing to accomplish that at my life right now? [00:36:57] Tony Arsenal: If so, and it's not sinful, and then have at it enjoy. You know, I think those are the kinds of questions we need to ask, and I don't think we often ask that. I think we are often passive. And neutral in decisions about what we're gonna watch for pop culture. We're driven by what is the most popular thing on Netflix? [00:37:15] Tony Arsenal: What does the algorithm recommend for us? Or what is being talked about at work? Or what do I have on hand? What do I have easy access to? Um, I think we need to be more active and intentional in our decisions on this towards those ends. [00:37:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And there's no accounting for taste, right? I mean, part, part of time we get caught up in that, so we'll just say, well, maybe what I'm experiencing, because I'm a Christian, I'm trying to process this, has to do more about like particular medium or the taste or the type of genre or something. [00:37:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'd encourage us to not get too caught up in that. I think what you're saying is really, really helpful. The idea here I think is more about embracing the fact that we don't have to be productive all the time. And that we don't have to be, and I use this with great love like puritanical in the sense that, you know, well, if Jonathan Edwards didn't laugh and the Lord sakes that was inappropriate, then I shouldn't either. [00:38:05] Jesse Schwamb: And by virtue of that fact, then I should really have this incredible puritanical work ethic where even when I'm at home or every second that I have, I should be reading something. And if I'm gonna read something, it should be productive. Or if I'm watch tv, it should be something kinda documentary. I need to learn and fill my mind and make use and redeem every second of that time. [00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: What if part of that redemption. Is enjoying entertainment for the way that God intended it to be, and that when he makes beauty and creativity and artistic expression, and again, we're presuming that this is the right amount of a lawful entertainment, that all of those things are for their own enjoyment because they point back to the creator. [00:38:40] Jesse Schwamb: Just by themselves. Like there doesn't have to be an ulterior motive. You don't have to justify it. You don't even have to feel guilty about it. That in fact, because we're contingent beings and therefore we have limited energy supply and unlimited amount of time and space, that all those things com continue to propel us towards some kind of desire for a lawful entertainment that leads us into rest. [00:39:02] Jesse Schwamb: Even as you're saying Tony, if that's rest for 10 or 15 minutes before, it's the next thing to feel this compulsion instead. To have to again quote unquote redeem. That time by being super productive is I think a fool's errand because we are as much made to work as we are made to rest. And in that rest, I think sometimes we actually find for some of us an easier time identifying and worshiping God in that risk. [00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: Because in our work, we are busy in our work and we often get caught up in our work thinking all of our work is all of us. And so we rest and we find enjoyment in something. We take a walk, we listen to a beautiful piece of music. We spend some times just conversing about nothing with friends. We sit outside and enjoy beverages together that something happens sometimes in that space. [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're in the pause of that in the fact that there is beauty that seemingly is without productive purpose, even though I'd argue there is one. It's just hidden behind it and we fail to see it. We are drawn to the fact drawn to say, God, are you not good? For all of your gifts. And of course he's good in our gifts of work. [00:40:02] Jesse Schwamb: He's also good in our, our gifts of rest. But he's given us this gift as a form of entertainment in our own pop culture for us really to enjoy. But you're right, if we get it twisted such that we consume too much of it, or if we misapply that, I think we're just gonna live a less abundant life. So again, like the task here is not, don't do any entertainment. [00:40:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get all, get away from all the entertainments. Like what? Like your point, Tony, I, and I've heard Christian say this, I think there can be a brow beating here where it's like, well, couldn't you have used that time more productive? Like they had a couple more minutes, like maybe you really should have prayed harder or. [00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe you should have read that other chapter in the Bible. Maybe you should gone back through your genealogies again and read those because you know that you don't read those particularly well. Or maybe you should have studied this thing or that thing. And instead is there a kind of worship that truly gives itself over to resting in God in the form of appreciating entertainment as he's created it for us to give us that kind of rest? [00:40:59] Jesse Schwamb: I would say yes. It's just that we often don't talk about it and sometimes we do talk about it. It's hard to bring it up 'cause you're gonna. You're gonna feel guilty. Like, can you imagine somebody saying to you, you know what? I'm just finding so much rest these days in this, uh, little game on my phone that I get to play. [00:41:15] Jesse Schwamb: You would be like, you, you might, if you're, if you're like, you know that person, well, you might be like, that's weird. I guarantee though, if that happened to me, I'd walk away and then when I was with my wife later, I'd be like, let me tell you what this weird thing this person said. You know what I mean? [00:41:27] Jesse Schwamb: But what, what, yeah. We need to think more like that. Not as a liberty to forsake or abdicate responsibility, but instead to actually be well rested for the responsibility in the task, the good works that God has created for us. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:42] Personal Experiences with Entertainment [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: And maybe here's like a concrete example is, um. You know, I, um, I work at a local hospital and my job is relatively intense. [00:41:53] Tony Arsenal: Um, in terms of emotional investment, I'm a patient relations supervisor, so I, I'm in charge of the department that hears all of the complaints from patients, which means we often hear some really frustrating stories about people's healthcare, and it can be very emotionally draining. And so I also, um, I also ride the bus home now. [00:42:15] Tony Arsenal: My, my vehicle is broken right now. Hopefully we're gonna get fixed soon, but I ride the bus home and for the first couple, I don't know, for the first week that I was riding the bus, I was like, I gotta use this time. I gotta read something. I gotta make sure I'm doing that right. And what I've learned actually is if I just take the 45 minutes that I'm on the bus and waiting for the bus and I just sort of zone out and play Pokemon Go. [00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: By the time I get home, I'm ready to engage with my kids better. I'm ready to engage with my wife better. I'm less likely to feel, uh, just drained and tired because I'm actually letting my brain sort of reset and I'm building that buffer. So something as simple as like. Playing a relatively mindless game on my phone for a half hour, 45 minutes while I ride the bus and wait for the bus, um, helps me to fulfill my obligations as a father and a husband in a more present way. [00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: Again, like if you wanna ride the bus and you wanna read a fiction, or you wanna do theology, like that's on you, that's your decision to make. But. I know people who would say to me, um, you really should be using that time for something more productive than playing Pokemon Go. And, and yeah, maybe like, maybe there are times that I should be more productive and maybe there are times that other people should be less productive. [00:43:32] Tony Arsenal: Like I think that's kind of what we're getting at here is. Productivity or spiritual growth or pi, like those categories are, each of those are good categories. Like productivity is not a bad thing. Um, personal devotion is certainly not a bad thing. [00:43:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:43:47] Tony Arsenal: But it's not the only thing. And we also, I think we act as though our lives can be this sort of like perfect integrated balance when really like we have to be able to sort of recognize that. [00:44:02] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes doing nothing has its own utility. Like that feels like a weird thing to say, but I I, I'm with you here and, and maybe this is kind of how we bring the episode down to an end is I do think. There is this, obviously the Sabbath principle, the rest principle. Um, but God also gives us rest in these other small ways. [00:44:25] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes not so small, but small ways in the rest of our life. And I don't think that we should bear any shame or guilt or feel like we're less Christian because we take advantage of or make use of those. Those sort of like smaller opportunities to rest and you know, recreation is recreation. Like that's, that's that etymology is not a false etymology. [00:44:49] Tony Arsenal: That's where the word comes from. And it's because we often need to do these sort of leisurely things in order to be able to then go back and put forward the effort that we need. And the other thing just, I feel like we're tying. Leisure to the ability to produce in a way that may actually also be unhealthy. [00:45:09] Tony Arsenal: Leisure is not necessarily the ends, the means to being able to be productive. Right? Leisure serves its own purpose. It has its own use, its own way to glorify God. Yes, it does enable us often to be able to come back and put our nose to the grindstone, but we shouldn't just think about it as like, well, this is just, this is just my recharge period. [00:45:30] Tony Arsenal: We don't think about sleep that way. I don't think we think about sleep in, in a fashion of saying like, well, I've gotta sleep so that I can just get up and go to work the next day. And productive. I think we recognize that our bodies need to rest and there's a blessing and a joy in being able to close our eyes and sort of drift off and have dreams and rest, and that our body recuperates itself, I think we should think of leisure in a similar sense, and recreation and pop culture all kind of play into that. [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right on. I mean, it's one of those things where we're certainly not saying that there isn't rest in prayer and in daily worship and consuming and studying the scriptures, there's certainly a rest in all those activities too. In some ways, I think we're presuming that we are trying to incorporate a balance into our lives, and that part of that balance is just rest for its own sake. [00:46:12] Jesse Schwamb: The enjoyment of that and when you're truly, I think, enjoying that rest, whatever it is, one we do not long feel guilty because we have processed. And pass everything to the sve of the scriptures and say, this is glorifying to God is for my goodness, for his glory. So therefore there's no, as it were like condemnation for me in this because I have a clear conscience about it. [00:46:31] Jesse Schwamb: And then in addition to that, it does provide us with perhaps, again, that lovely contrast between working hard and then having. Some period of which we are abstaining from that work and from that labor. And in so doing we find different ways to please and to worship God. We find that we see his character reflected in different ways. [00:46:49] Jesse Schwamb: And so in that way too, it reminds us that we are, like I said before, like completely contingent, we get tired, we get exhausted. Like there's only so much the mind can do and so much it can handle. And so by. Willingly accepting and leaning into that, not again, in a way that takes us away. We use as liberty to say, well, I, you know, I really should spend some time before the Lord in prayer. [00:47:10] Jesse Schwamb: I really should spend some time in, in daily particular worship, but you know what? I really need to rest instead. Like of, of course, that itself, we should be convicted about, uh, because then we're using entertainment such a way to distract us. Suppose this. Way from God rather than toward him. But the Bible is so clear, like you're saying, Tony, that there's all these seasons in life and the more I think about those seasons, the more I wonder if we tend to treat them too discreetly. [00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: And in these two, like, kind of like prolonged periods, what if a season is for an hour? What if a season is for a day? What if a season is for five minutes? So famously, of course, when we have the teacher writing. Ecclesiastes chapter three, some of these famous words, I think we just fail to take them to heart. [00:47:51] Jesse Schwamb: Listen to this beautiful contrast, and I think it really fits in with what we're saying here about the, the ability to rightly consume entertainment and pop culture in such a way that it is glorifying to God and our understanding of it in our application of how it gives us true rest. So it writes things like this. [00:48:09] Jesse Schwamb: There's a time to kill and the time to heal. A time to break down, a time to build up, a time to weep, and a time to laugh, A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing a time to seek and a time to lose. [00:48:26] Jesse Schwamb: A time to keep, and a time to cast away. A time to tear. A time to sow, a time to keep silence and a time to speak, a time to love, and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. So it's very clear that God has given us, I think all of these wonderful things to enjoy as part of his character, as demonstrations of the fact that he is a God who is loving and love always leads to giving. [00:48:51] Jesse Schwamb: And so he gives us beauty in arts. In music, in literature, in screen, and of course then we should recognize because those are things from God and we ought to that. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Heavenly Father who is above that. It is the prerogative of the devil to twist and bend those things in such a way that we feel to see them as God's gifts and said, see them as our rightful consumption. [00:49:12] Jesse Schwamb: Such a way that enslaves. Changes our mindset, pulls us farther away from God. So I think part of it's just going into everything with the pun intended, with eyes wide open. So hopefully some of these tests have been helpful. I think people probably have, because like you said, Tony, there's a lot of Christian liberty here and maybe some point. [00:49:29] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I was gonna ask you like what's I, I'm not gonna ask you this because I know you're gonna ask it back to me, but like what would be maybe something you consume that others might be able. Ooh. Um, but I don't want you to ask that back to me. We could do that. We could do that if you want to. [00:49:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah, let's, let's do that in a future episode. [00:49:43] Tony Arsenal: I think that'd be fun. Well, we'll [00:49:44] Jesse Schwamb: save that for another time. So everybody keeps listening. [00:49:46] Encouraging Community Engagement [00:49:46] Jesse Schwamb: But I think one of the things that we should be encouraging our listeners to do, the people who are part of the reform brotherhoodhood, is come hang out online. In this place called Telegram, which is just a chat messaging app and we have a little corner, a protected corner of the world. [00:50:00] Jesse Schwamb: There is a group of people who are like-minded listening to our conversations and participating in their own. And the way they participate with us is you can message in the app, they've got a bunch of channels of different topics, so you can get there by going to t.me/reform brotherhood. I bring this up now, not just to advertise as usual. [00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Because we want you to come be a part of this, but I would love to hear from others because we have a channel in there that's just about the conversations we're having on the podcast. Come share some of the practical things that you use, the tests that you have, the conversations that you bring forward to help you discern what kind of pop culture you're consuming. [00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Don't just take our word for it. Let's hear what the Holy Spirit. How he is leading you in this process that every Christian really must engage in. So coming out, that's t me Reformed Brotherhood. [00:50:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I'll, I'll throw my 2 cents on there too. Is this, this really is the most friendly corner of the Christian internet. [00:50:58] Tony Arsenal: Um. That's not to cascade on other, other venues and other things, but my experience with this group of people is that it's the most low key, chill and genuine group of Christians online that I've ever encountered. And so I, I think like in some places you couldn't have that conversation honestly, because the second you say, I watched this show, or I've read this book and I enjoy it, somebody is jumping down your throat to tell you that you're terrible and awful and, and. [00:51:25] Tony Arsenal: I've been that person. Like, don't, don't get me wrong, like I've been that guy online. Who tells you that you're the worst person in the world because you, I don't know. Because you watch the office. I wouldn't say the office 'cause I love the office, but like, I've been that guy, that guy doesn't exist in our, our telegram chat. [00:51:41] Tony Arsenal: Right? Like you, you are not gonna have people who are gonna be jumping on your throat, but also. People there are, are honest and they're straightforward and they're gonna back up what they say with biblical reasoning. If they think that the thing you're watching is not a healthy thing, then they're gonna tell you and they're gonna share with you why they think it is. [00:51:55] Tony Arsenal: But they're gonna do it in a way that is charitable and honest and respectful. And at the end of the day, a lot of times there's disagreements and we just say, you know what? It's not worth it to have. Strife among the brethren here. So we're just gonna let this conversation fade away until another day, right? [00:52:10] Tony Arsenal: So do check it out. T me slash Reform Brotherhood. Um, I really think it's great. It's encouraging the, I, I, I say it every single time we bring this up. There is an active prayer channel where you can share your prayer requests, and not only will people pray for you, but it is not uncommon for people to type out the prayer that they're praying for you in that chat, so you know what they're praying, which is something I've never experienced online. [00:52:34] Tony Arsenal: So I think it's a great place to be. I think it's a really, really fun. Group to be a part of. And it's encouraging, it's edifying. Um, and again, it's a great place to have some, just some fun conversations. There's a meme group, there's topic discussions. We are gonna be coming up on a new series in September here. [00:52:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, I don't think we're quite ready to say what it is. You have to keep you coming back for something, but we're gonna be coming up on a new series in September, but we have a couple more episodes that are sort of grab bag episodes. So this next series is gonna be a long one, I think. Think, I think we're probably talking about like probably like eight, nine months, if not more. [00:53:08] Tony Arsenal: It's gonna be a long one. So if you've got a topic that you would like us to talk about on the show, here's your chance, here's your chance. Come into the the Telegram chat, look for the topics, topic suggestions, channel. Make your suggestion. There's a good chance we'll take it because we would rather talk about the things you wanna talk about than whatever random topic we come up with. [00:53:26] Tony Arsenal: So please do check it out. T me slash for brother. We would love to hear what you're thinking. [00:53:30] Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans [00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's close it out this way. And you, you already gave us one Tony, so you're under no obligation to give a second, but I would love it if you, if you had one, and I can answer first if you want to. But here's the question I think we should end with is what's one thing, one form of pop culture entertainment that you are lawfully enjoying right now that's bringing you rest? [00:53:47] Jesse Schwamb: So you talked about Pokemon Go. Do you want a second to think? And I'll give you mine. [00:53:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, why don't you go first and I'll come up with one. [00:53:54] Jesse Schwamb: So the thing that I'm enjoying is I really do find that the older I get and let, listen, I was gonna give you a, a big explanation of why I enjoy this. And in the spirit of what we just talked about, I'm not gonna do that because I'm just enjoying this and I believe it's, it's something that God has given me that I'm, I'm really finding Reston. [00:54:08] Jesse Schwamb: I've just been reading the Brandon, uh, Sanderson Missed Born series. I mean, the second book, the storytelling is awesome. Honestly, I mean, maybe one of the reasons I'm drawn to it is I'm finding, of course, all of these themes in there about redemption and sacrifice. And again, these things lead us, I think back to God the Father, when the Holy Spirit has illuminated us such that we have been regenerated and we see those things most clearly, but it's just incredible. [00:54:37] Jesse Schwamb: Storytelling and I'm finding that it's one of those books where this is not like affirming width, it's just I'm telling you about my rest. It's one of those books. I think you've probably had this experience, Tony, where like you pick it up and you read, and time just kind of like goes by and then you look up and you're like, oh my goodness, I've been sitting here for an hour and I'm just like. [00:54:55] Jesse Schwamb: Just two weeks ago, I sat outside reading the part, big part of the first book, actually finished a large section of it that I didn't intend to finish when I sat down and I was just sitting outside and I closed it and the ending was so good. And you ever have like a good fiction book, you close it and you just think, huh. [00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: You sit there for a little while and you think, and I found it was one of the most restful hours that I've had, I'll be honest, in a long time. So I'm just enjoying that kind of reading and it's good. I don't, I mean, I have a clean conscience about it. Don't worry about any of any nonsense, any of that story. [00:55:27] Jesse Schwamb: It just goes storytelling. But somebody could easily, with great legalism come along and be like, how dare you? Yeah. You, you're reading fiction. You're reading fantasy fiction. There's some magic. Yeah, exactly. Magic and [00:55:38] Tony Arsenal: killing. [00:55:38] Jesse Schwamb: What is this? Get get this outta here. So I, I say that, uh, unashamedly that I'm really enjoying the Miss Born series. [00:55:45] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. What about you? [00:55:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, my wife and I just started a new series and I'll, I'll be honest, like looking at some of the trailers, we may get to a point, um, depending on how. Some of the trailers are, or we say we can't continue watching this, but we just started a new series called Chiefs of War. Have you heard about this series, Jason? [00:56:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It's Jason Momoa. It's a historical drama of the history of the unification of the Hawaiian Islands. Um, and it is very much rooted in history, but also, um, also legend and, um, it is deeply, deeply. Authentic is the way that I've heard it described. So Jason Momoa is, uh, of Hawaiian descent and, um, he has been sort of working on this project for like a decade. [00:56:30] Tony Arsenal: Um, so it's, it's, uh. Pretty violent. It's a, it's a historical drama around, um, tribal warfare in a culture that was pretty brutal. Um, but it's, it's very enjoyable. It's very well done. The cinematography is beautiful. The, the camera work is absolutely gorgeous. The soundscape is gorgeous. Um. They're using authentic, uh, and I don't know how you figure this out, I'm not a linguist, but they're using authentic, sort of archaic Hawaiian dialect, which is really, really beautiful to listen to. [00:57:01] Tony Arsenal: If you really, like, you could just close your eyes and listen to, it's a really beautiful language, so, um, I'm really enjoying it. Again, we've only watched a, a little bit of the, you know, we watched the first episode a little bit of the second. Um, some of the trailers look like there might be some spicy scenes that. [00:57:14] Tony Arsenal: Aren't so great. Um, and maybe once we get to them we're, we might decide like, we've invested this time, but it's not gonna be something that benefits us. Right. And maybe we'll be able to get past it. Who knows? Maybe, maybe we'll be fine with it. Maybe the, maybe the trailers are all there is. So I've really been enjoying it. [00:57:30] Tony Arsenal: Um. My wife and I tend to take every Friday evening, um, as our kind of TV date night. Um, because the other nights of the week we're trying to get stuff done and read and, and study and do our thing. Um, but yeah, it's been very good. Um, I'm also watching the Lord of the Rings series or the, the Rings of Power, um, trying to finish season two. [00:57:50] Tony Arsenal: It's kind of a slow slog. It's not, there's nothing like overtly, I dunno, sultry in it, but it's not super. Compelling. I'm one of those people that, like, once I've started a series, I really need to feel like I, I can finish it. It's hard for me to stop a series. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think those are the two big ones that I'm watching right now that I just kind of like take a little bit of time. [00:58:10] Tony Arsenal: I watch the Rings of Power Show like 15 to 20 minutes of time on my, during my lunch break. I don't really get a lunch break 'cause I'm a salaried person. But like when I'm eating my lunch at work, I'll. I'll put that on my laptop and watch 15 or 20 minutes at a time and then shut it off. So it'll take me like 150 years to get through the second season, but, but it's enjoyable. [00:58:29] Tony Arsenal: That's what I've been watching. [00:58:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There it goes. See, by the way, that brings an interesting point, which we can't even get into right now, but you know what is also underrated? Is the tiny little legitimate breaks at work. Yeah. Where you actually do something completely different. Like you said, like read something that's just for fun, like truly for fun, not that you're trying to bone up on a study on, or it's related or not. [00:58:49] Jesse Schwamb: Just like catch up your emails or watch a video or go to YouTube and watch something of your, for your favorite again. Yeah. Law subscriptions definitely underrated. You take a little bit of that time. It can be so. Refreshing. And then again, I think that once we, we have that time and we're rejuvenated or we're changed in it to some degree, it does cause us to worship God in a different way. [00:59:09] Jesse Schwamb: It draws our attention back to him as the one who gives all things as the giver of life, giver of energy, giver of renewed minds, and renewed states. Like all of that happens in the course of rest. So you've heard it from us, loved ones, but we'd love to hear from you again. You gotta come hang out with us. [00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: T Me backs us from brotherhood. Jump in the chat. Tell us how you are resting and how you decide to consume all of this lovely entertainment and pop culture that God has given us. [00:59:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, I think that's as good of a place for us to wrap it up tonight. Uh, I appreciate this conversation. I think it's a, it's a good conversation for us to have. [00:59:44] Tony Arsenal: We are very excited to get into our next series. But again, there are is a couple weeks here, uh, where we still have some grab egg episodes. So this is your chance and Jesse. Until next time, honor everyone. [00:59:56] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the profound significance of sharing personal testimonies as a way to reflect on God's providence and glorify His work in our lives. Through their own faith journeys—Tony's teenage conversion and Jesse's early life in a faithful Christian household—they explore the transformative power of the gospel and the beauty of childlike faith. Along the way, they discuss how testimonies encourage others, strengthen the church, and remind us of God's unchanging faithfulness across every stage of life. Whether you're reflecting on your own story of grace or seeking ways to minister to others, this episode offers practical insights and encouragement to live out the gospel in word and deed. Key Takeaways Testimonies Reveal God's Faithfulness: Sharing personal stories of how God has worked in our lives reminds us and others of His providence and sovereignty. The Gospel and Testimonies Are Distinct: While testimonies are powerful, they are not the gospel itself but a witness to how the gospel has transformed individual lives. The Role of Childlike Faith: Faith does not require deep knowledge or sophistication; even a child can grasp the gospel's profound truth and respond in faith. The Importance of Remembering: Reflecting on God's past faithfulness strengthens our trust in His future promises, especially during challenging seasons. Ministering to the Next Generation: Teaching children the gospel and nurturing their faith lays a foundation for lifelong discipleship and spiritual growth. Testimonies Create Shared Connections: Sharing faith stories fosters community and builds relational "ruts" that guide others toward faith in Christ. Encouragement to Share Regularly: Believers should be proactive in sharing their testimonies with others as an act of worship and witness. Testimonies Reveal God's Faithfulness Tony and Jesse emphasize that testimonies serve as a powerful reminder of God's providential hand in the lives of His people. Looking back on our spiritual journeys allows us to see the intricate ways God has orchestrated events for His glory and our good. As Tony reflects, even the smallest moments of conviction, growth, or change are evidence of God's unchanging faithfulness. Sharing these stories not only strengthens our faith but also encourages others by showing them that God remains active and present in the lives of His people. The Role of Childlike Faith Jesse highlights the beauty of childlike faith, noting that faith does not require theological sophistication but a simple trust in Jesus. He recounts the profound blessing of growing up in a Christian home where faith was modeled daily. This early exposure to the gospel, combined with the work of the Holy Spirit, laid a foundation for lifelong spiritual growth. Jesse's story reminds us that God's grace works powerfully in the lives of children, and nurturing their faith is a vital responsibility of parents, teachers, and the church. Ministering to the Next Generation The hosts passionately discuss the importance of ministering to children, emphasizing the eternal impact of teaching them the gospel. Jesse points to the compounding blessings of early faith, while Tony reflects on how small seeds of spiritual truth planted in childhood can grow into lifelong faithfulness. They call on parents, teachers, and church members to pray for and invest in the next generation, trusting that God can use even simple acts of faithfulness to draw children to Himself. Quotes "There was never a time I did not know the name of Jesus. That is such an underrated blessing and gift." – Jesse Schwamb "Testimonies are not the gospel, but they are a witness to the gospel's power in our lives." – Tony Arsenal "Faith is something so simple. It's a small faith that can lay hold of a great and big Savior." – Jesse Schwamb

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb takes listeners on a deep theological journey into the distinction between law and gospel. Drawing from Martin Luther's theological insights, Jesse explores how these two words from God—the law and the gospel—reveal His righteousness and intersect with Christian living. He reflects on the ways the law exposes sin and reveals the justice of God, while the gospel offers the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. This timely discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding how God's law and gospel work in harmony to declare His glory and transform lives. Jesse unpacks the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory, highlighting how the gospel is scandalously counterintuitive, displaying God's power through weakness and Christ's ultimate act of obedience—His death on the cross. Through thought-provoking metaphors and personal reflections, he illustrates how the law's demands drive us to despair but ultimately point us to the gospel, where we find redemption and freedom in Christ. The episode also delves into the transformative power of the gospel, contrasting it with the law's inability to save. Jesse encourages listeners to consider how the gospel empowers obedience, not as a means of earning righteousness, but as a response to the righteousness imputed to us by Christ. This episode is rich in theological depth and practical application, providing a framework for understanding God's justice, mercy, and love.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony dive deep into Martin Luther's contrasting theological concepts: the Theology of Glory and the Theology of the Cross. Beginning with a reflection on how the Theology of Glory prioritizes human strength, reason, and achievement, they explore how this perspective can mislead Christians into seeking God through displays of power and visible success. Instead, they emphasize that Luther's Theology of the Cross reveals God's power most profoundly in weakness, suffering, and humility. The conversation highlights how the Theology of Glory often leads to arrogance, misplaced priorities, and a misunderstanding of God's nature and work in the world. Drawing from Scripture, the hosts demonstrate how the Gospel flips the world's values upside down, showing that true Christian power lies in self-sacrifice, service, and dependence on Christ. They also discuss contemporary examples of how the Theology of Glory manifests in modern Christian movements, including megachurch culture, prosperity theology, and even personal pride within small church leadership. Jesse and Tony challenge listeners to examine their own lives and ministries in light of the Theology of the Cross. They encourage believers to adopt an attitude of humility, servanthood, and dependence on God's grace, rather than striving for worldly success or recognition. This episode is a timely reminder that the Christian life is not about glory as the world defines it, but about finding strength in weakness and victory in the cross of Christ. Key Points: Theology of Glory vs. Theology of the Cross: Luther's framework contrasts human-centered religion, which seeks God in power and success, with the Gospel's revelation of God through weakness and suffering. Modern Examples of the Theology of Glory: Prosperity theology, megachurch culture, and some expressions of Christian nationalism illustrate how this mindset persists today. The Power of Humility and Weakness: The Theology of the Cross calls Christians to embrace servanthood and suffering as reflections of Christ's work on the cross. Scriptural Foundations: The hosts reference key Scriptures, such as Philippians 2 and Luke 10, to show how God's kingdom operates differently from human expectations. Practical Applications: Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own lives and avoid the pitfalls of pride and self-reliance, instead embracing a Christ-centered approach to faith and ministry. Questions for Reflection: How does the Theology of Glory manifest in your own life or church context? In what ways does the Theology of the Cross challenge your understanding of power and success? How can you cultivate humility and servanthood in your daily walk with Christ? Are there areas in your life where you tend to rely on human wisdom or strength instead of God's grace? How does understanding God's power in weakness bring comfort and transformation to your faith? Citations: John Calvin, Commentary on the Gospel According to John, trans. William Pringle, vol. 1 (Bellingham: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 1:329–330.

In this episode of Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into Martin Luther's concept of the Theology of the Cross, a foundational idea in Reformation theology. Rooted in the Heidelberg Disputation of 1518, this theological framework challenges believers to see God's power and purpose in human suffering and weakness. The hosts explore how the cross is the ultimate revelation of God's nature, subverting traditional human expectations of power and glory. The discussion highlights the stark contrast between the Theology of the Cross and what Luther termed the Theology of Glory. The former calls Christians to understand God's work through suffering and apparent defeat, as exemplified in Christ's crucifixion. Jesse and Tony argue that this paradigm is not only essential for understanding the gospel but also deeply relevant to the modern Christian experience, especially in a culture increasingly drawn to triumphalism and worldly notions of success. This episode is a call to reflect on how suffering shapes the Christian life. The hosts explore how trials and hardships are not merely obstacles but divinely ordained means of sanctification. They underscore the importance of embracing weakness as a pathway to experiencing God's strength and grace, offering both theological depth and practical encouragement for listeners facing difficulties. Key Points: The Theology of the Cross Explained: Luther's concept emphasizes that God's power is revealed through weakness, and His blessings often come disguised as suffering. The cross is central to understanding this paradoxical truth. Relevance for Modern Christians: The episode critiques contemporary triumphalism and discusses how cultural notions of power and success can distort biblical theology. The Theology of the Cross serves as a corrective, calling believers to embrace humility and dependence on God. Suffering as a Means of Sanctification: Jesse and Tony explore how trials are not signs of God's absence but opportunities for spiritual growth and deeper communion with Christ, who himself suffered for humanity. Luther's Historical Context: The discussion provides background on the Heidelberg Disputation and how it laid the groundwork for Protestant theology, emphasizing the importance of distinguishing between human merit and divine grace. Questions for Reflection: How does the Theology of the Cross challenge your understanding of God's power and blessings? In what ways have you seen God use suffering in your life to draw you closer to Him? How can Christians balance engagement with cultural and political movements while maintaining a biblical perspective on weakness and humility? What practical steps can you take to embrace suffering as a means of sanctification without minimizing its difficulty?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the crucial Christian discipline of self-examination. Grounding their discussion in Scriptures like Psalm 139:23-24 and 2 Corinthians 13:5, they explore what it means to test and examine oneself in the faith. They emphasize that self-examination is not about undermining assurance but rather about deepening a believer's trust in Christ while fostering spiritual growth and humility. The conversation highlights the necessity of prayer as the starting point for self-examination. Jesse and Tony remind listeners that asking God to search and reveal the state of one's heart is an act of worship and dependence. They also discuss the difference between examining oneself scholastically (assessing knowledge of the faith) and testing oneself by comparing one's life against the standard of Christ. Both are vital to a vibrant and gospel-centered Christian life. Listeners are encouraged to embrace self-examination as a regular and joyful practice that leads to assurance and maturity in Christ. Far from being an exercise in despair, self-examination is presented as a means to greater dependence on the finished work of Christ and a deeper appreciation of the Holy Spirit's role in illuminating sin and pointing believers to their Savior. Key Points: The Biblical Call to Self-Examination The discussion begins with an exploration of Psalm 139 and 2 Corinthians 13:5, where Scripture commands believers to examine their hearts and test their faith. This practice is necessary for spiritual growth and assurance in Christ. Self-Examination as a Spiritual Discipline Jesse and Tony underscore the importance of self-examination as a regular practice, not just for addressing sin but also for recognizing God's work in one's life. They emphasize starting this process with prayer, asking God to reveal both sin and righteousness. The Role of the Holy Spirit in Self-Examination The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in guiding believers through the process of self-examination. He convicts of sin, assures of righteousness, and leads believers to deeper dependence on Christ. Balancing Conviction and Assurance The hosts caution against the danger of turning self-examination into morbid introspection. Instead, they encourage listeners to see it as a hopeful practice that strengthens faith and magnifies Christ's finished work. Questions for Reflection: How often do you take time to examine your heart and motives before God? What role does prayer play in your self-examination process? Are there areas in your life where you see Christ working but haven't taken time to reflect on and thank Him for? How can you balance conviction of sin with assurance in Christ during self-reflection? What Scriptures encourage you to test and examine your faith?