PODCAST · arts
Publishing Disrupted
by Mick Silva and David Morris
Exploring the ways in which book publishing is changing and how writers can best meet the challenge. A conversation between two publishing veterans and friends, editor Mick Silva and publisher and literary agent David Morris. MickSilva.com / DavidRMorris.me
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25
Our Takeaways from the Festival of Faith and Writing, 2026
David and I discussed our impressions of the FFW writers conference this year where we had many conversations at the Lake Drive Books table about some of our favorite topics--and books.For some reason, none of the big 5 Christian publishers were there. Which is pretty interesting when you realize this is one of the bigger and better-known book conferences that included many well-known Christian authors. Come listen in as we bat around some theories and try to determine whether there's a similar reason the most popular faith-based publishers and mass culture are so monolithic and risk-averse.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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24
The Art of the Almost Said: Talking with Writer, Editor, & Poet Bob Hudson
We're joined in the library studio by our friend and publishing colleague Robert Hudson to talk about his boutique chapbook publishing and the soul of the indie press. Much has been made (and is still being made) about mainstream publishing, their dominance and supposed clout, and the validation of authors they offer. But listening to Bob, an insider who has always cultivated his little garden outside of it, it's clear there's much to be said for the thriving indie press and its indominable spirit. He shares some advice for writers, and we all discussed how we see the deconstruction movement feeding a resurgence in more authentic, and autonomous publishing. Come along.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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23
Can We Forget Platform, Please? Calling All Pathfinders and Waymakers, with Ivy Zeller
David and Mick are joined by fellow book editor and Hyponymous literary agent Ivy Zeller to discuss her refreshing response to the disrupted publishing landscape. What can we learn from zine culture? How specific can we get with audiences? How do representation and advocacy inform our publishing path? There was so much to discuss in this vibrant conversation! Please let us know how you responded to the topics and themes we covered.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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22
Embracing New Cultures, New Languages, & the New Ember Conference
Extending our theme of how to find new gatherings and community (when the old ones are no longer serving), Publisher David shares his recent experiences with a local German club, and at the progressive-Christian Ember Conference in Oakland, CA. If you're looking to connect with more diverse people, learn new things you never knew, or just seeking new ways to experience a wider world, this is a great conversation. Books and book people are, of course, fascinating and full of exciting, deep ideas. And we want to highlight the opportunities in local communities--especially at the new recent Ember Conference in Oakland, California--to invest in more welcoming and authentic relationships. If you're a reader, a writer, or just interested in a more "egalitarian" way to produce books, we hope you'll come along.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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21
Connections, Creativity, and Chicken Scratch, with PW Religion Writer Ann Byle
In this conversation with long-time journalist, author, and writing coach Ann Byle, she provided us with some industry analysis, career advice, and some opinionated takes on relevant themes, particularly getting creative in modern Christian publishing.The publishing landscape is definitely changing, so she shared the difference between vanity and custom publishing and noted that as part of her work covering Publishers Weekly’s religion section, custom-published books are earning more genuine respect in the marketplace.Connections are still king and take time, but with some "chicken scratch creativity," you can build a career that lasts.Ann Byle is at annbylewriter.comHer book is Chicken Scratch: Lessons on Living Creatively from a Flock of HensReligion Book Line newsletter is at PublishersWeekly.comPublishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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20
Where We're Coming From: Our Faith Disruptions
As snow falls outside the window in Grand Rapids we decided it was finally time to share how our personal faith journeys have been disrupted and how that's affected our deep engagement with the material we edit, represent, and publish.As former Christian publishing professionals, we once assented to certain beliefs. But we currently land in a very different place. And we know we’re not alone.Whether your faith disruption is minor or you've identified some religious trauma, we hope you'll feel welcome to explore this topic with us and recognize something of yourself in this growing community of misfits we work with and publish for. If you've stepped away from organized religion, the shift is personal and profound. But leaving one community shouldn't mean losing community entirely. Amidst our shifting identities (and judgment from others), writing and reading new books helps us more deeply appreciate unanswered questions and develop critical thinking.If you recognize the strength in a diversity of voices, perspectives, and experiences and want to go deeper together, we hope you'll come along.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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19
Craft, Community, and Reinvention: An Interview with Author and Coach Jeff Elkins
So glad to have author and writing coach Jeff Elkins on Publishing Disrupted!What do you do when the education or job you worked so hard for no longer fits the life you’re living?In this episode of Publishing Disrupted, Mick Silva and David Morris are joined by novelist, writing coach, and Dialogue Doctor founder Jeff Elkins for an honest conversation about vocation, disruption, and creative reinvention.Jeff’s story spans theological training, fifteen years as a successful pastor, an exit from church systems, and a gradual rebuilding of professional identity through writing, teaching, and community-building. Today, Jeff works in organizational training, runs a learning community for writers, and continues to publish fiction on his own terms.Together, we talk about:– Leaving professions that once gave meaning and identity– Writing as a practice of presence, not just production– How independent fiction publishing actually works in today’s marketplace– Why community may matter more than algorithmsThis episode isn’t just about publishing. It’s about passion, profession, and learning to build a creative life amid disruption.Listen now wherever you get your podcasts or over at publishingdisrupted.substack.com.Find Jeff Elkins at https://jeffelkinswriter.com/ and https://dialoguedoctor.com/Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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18
Year-End Wrap-Up, New Year Plans, and Our Favorite Books
What are we doing, where are we going, and will they have snacks there? David and I talked some about our aims for this podcast, and how we (still) don't want to try to boil things down to five takeaways, or share advice much. Mainly, we love exploring fresh takes, and sharing about humans we're excited about. Toward that end, we discussed whether there's room for "books that don't do anything," and an idea about how writers might be better served by embracing a writing life rather than worrying too much about SEO and book sales. We shared some ideas and wants for season two, and finished with a couple of our favorite books. Look forward to sharing more disruptiveness in the New Year!Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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17
Breaking Out of the %*$# Box
Warning! One unnamed host (who knows who he is) used some choice phrasing that may strip the grease stains out of your earbuds. Our genteel, refined listeners and sensitive types are advised to find a different episode.That said, this one got real. Très piquant! So, you know, don't listen with your kids in the car. And probably don't recommend it to Aunt Darla, who already thinks you're a heathen for watching R-rated movies. In fact, don't listen to it at all. There's nothing here you can't live without. Not a single takeaway of note. Really, we'd recommend something more, you know, edifying. But if you're not put off by such debased verbiage, or if you're just curious what "getting out of the box" means, or what even is the box and who's telling us what boxes we should be in now, and what's going on? Then you're probably going to have to listen. Just don't come whining to us later.For bolder, blunt writers and publishing types who feel beaten down, or who long for some honest truth, and/or a different kind of supportive, generous community, please enjoy freely. And please direct all hate mail to Aunt Darla.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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16
Author Marla Taviano on How to Build a Career on Frog and Toad Art, Five Years of Daily Posts, and the Spirit of Abundance
Author and poet Marla Taviano knows what it's like when publishing chews you up and spits you out. After four Christian books went out of print despite editors calling her writing "brilliant," she reinvented herself through indie publishing, daily content creation, and radical generosity.In this conversation, Marla shares how she followed Rachel Held Evans' blueprint of elevating marginalized writers, connecting young Black pastor Trey Ferguson with Lake Drive Books, and championing authors of color. She talks about five years of posting daily with minimal engagement before something finally shifted, her Frog and Toad poem art, and why there's no hack—just showing up every day because you love it.This episode is about abundance over scarcity, collaboration over competition, and trusting that generosity creates more than fear ever could.Enjoy the video of this episode here. Bio: Marla Taviano is into books, love, justice, globes, anti-racism, blue, gray, rainbows, and poems. She reads and writes for a living, wears her heart on her t-shirts, and is on a mission/quest/journey to live wholefarted (not a typo). She’s the author of unbelieve: poems on the journey to becoming a heretic, jaded: a poetic reckoning with white evangelical christian indoctrination, whole: poems on reclaiming the pieces of ourselves and creating something new, and other books. She lives in South Carolina with her four freaking awesome kids and two adorable cats. Find out more at marlataviano.com.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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15
A Better Publishing Model? Why Higher Royalties Matter More Than Advances
Publishing has been disrupted. There’s now a better way for the vast majority of authors. In this episode, David and I get into the biggest problems with traditional publishing: consolidatation, huge overhead, low royalties, and unearned advances. Much recent evidence bears out the fact that for the vast majority of newer and mid-level authors, big publishing is simply no longer built to serve them. Meanwhile, there's a better hybrid model that partners with authors' upfront investment to create organic, sustainable, and long-term sales, book after book. Listen in as I ask David about the significant benefits and strategic differences at Lake Drive Books.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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14
Highbrow and Lowbrow: Why Book Categories Don't Serve Avid Readers
For too long, publishing professionals, ourselves included, have been chasing the largest possible audiences. But in this episode we tried to take our experience and apply some finer lenses to focus on the far-more diverse independent market. We dug into some new research about book readers and their preferences, and discussed the common biases of highbrow and lowbrow book culture. While not immediately obvious, this distinction may offer more helpful way to understand why fiction is dominated by genres, and also why it's such a struggle to find books and book communities that transcend those familiar marketing categories. Links to the readings mentioned: "The Omnivore Dilemma," by Laura B. McGrath: substack.com/home/post/p-176741258"The Publishing Industry Has a Gambling Problem," by Tajja Isen: TheWalrus.ca/the-publishing-industry-has-a-gambling-problem/"Freedom Without Belonging: The American Spiritual Predicament," by David Morris: dvdmorris.substack.com/p/freedom-without-belonging-the-americanPublishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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13
Ink, Root, and Liberation: Rohadi Nagassar on the Power of Collective Creativity
In this, yet another episode of disruption from the bottom up, co-hosts Mick Silva and David Morris talk with author, creator, minister, and new literary agent Rohadi Nagassar about the shifting landscape of publishing and the rise of community-centered creativity. Rohadi discusses his Ink and Root Collective, a writing space for BIPOC authors emphasizing care and connection over commerce. The trio explores themes of decolonizing publishing, the challenges for marginalized authors post-2020, and the need for authentic community and sustainable models outside traditional, profit-driven systems. Together, they imagine a more liberative, people-centered future for writers and publishers.Find Rohadi Nagassar at www.rohadi.com and be sure to check out his books including his new one in May 2026, Whole and Human: Forty Meditations for Liberating Body and Spirit, at heraldpress.comPublishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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12
What (Really) Makes a Great Author Great?
Sit down and listen in as I ask David Morris, publisher and literary agent, what really makes great authors great. Beyond the usual list of necessary qualities like being a good writer with a great concept and a reasonably sized platform, what makes an author someone we want to work with long-term? And surprise! Our definition of "greatness" is a bit different, but let's get real: every creative person dreams of finding this kind of reciprocal cooperation, don't they? #1 is humility / teachability - receiving openly without defensivenessAiming for authenticity and connection over a quick winAnd seeking professional maturity through long-term relationshipsWe also discuss being "heart-led" over head-dominant, the types of authors we tend to avoid, and why a true partnership eats transactional relationships for breakfast. From our extensive experience working with authors to help produce both award-winning and bestselling books (though we don't love those nebulous terms), we've hit on some essential qualities any aspiring author should find useful to know...Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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11
The Joy of Discovery
Join the disruption discussion as we welcome two self-employed publishing colleagues to the show, agent Tom Dean, and ghostwriter/editor Andy Rogers. Some highlights of our conversation about why we love what we do: The "platform paradox" - authors with great books choosing to opt out of traditional publishingThe joy of hand-selling and direct reader connectionIndustry insights about corporate publishing culturePractical advice for authors navigating today's landscapeThe human stories that make these industry shifts meaningfulThe opportunities for authors have never been broader--or more confusing. But as our guests helped to prove, if you're an author hoping to gain experience and know-how about the industry today, hearing from multiple independent experts adds some insight and clarity that could very well prove essential. Come along!Tom Dean is at www.ADropofInk.pubAndy Rogers is at andyrogersbooks.comPublishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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10
What Does a "Bestselling Book" Mean Anymore?
In the shifting landscape of book publishing today, how helpful is the "bestselling book" stamp of approval? As authors face increasingly challenging obstacles to recognition (and sales), is bestseller status a shortcut to fame and fortune? Or is that prize even worth it? Come along as we discuss:New York Times list is not just based on most copies sold.USA Today lists 150 titles without discrimination of type or category.Amazon's velocity-based algorithm is too easy to game. BookScan sales data tracks legitimate sales but is unavailable for most authors.Bottom line: bestseller lists often reflect manufactured buzz rather than book quality or even highest sales. And many publishing professionals don't consider bestsellers to be the best books. So what are the alternatives to focusing on bestseller lists for authors?Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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9
Why Reading Is Fun (and Sexy)
In this wide-ranging conversation, Mick and David dive into their personal reading habits as men, as book-lovers, and as supporters of great independent publishing. They explore their current reads—from Austrian history and Michigan ghost ships to literary fiction and classics like The Little Prince—discussing how reading can serve as both intellectual pursuit and spiritual practice.They examine the stereotype that "men don't read" (spoiler: they definitely do), and share their preferences for physical books over screens, not just because it's "sexier" (according to a recent NYT headline), but because it takes us "out of ourselves" in ways that feel deeply meaningful. They also touch on the changing landscape of book publishing through the rise of independent voices on platforms like Substack and Tumblr, answering the challenge of finding thoughtful analysis in our chaotic political moment.Whether you're looking for reading recommendations, curious about the evolving book industry, or just want to eavesdrop on two literary professionals shooting the sh#t about their favorite escape from daily life, this episode offers plenty of food for thought—and a good reminder that reading is sexier than staring at a phone.Publishing Disrupted explores how the book world is changing and how writers can adapt to meet new challenges.Mick Silva is at micksilva.comDavid Morris is at DavidRMorris.comLake Drive Books is LakeDriveBooks.comNew episodes every other week. Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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8
The Mainstream Is Dead. Long Live Unique Tribes!
The publishing industry isn’t just changing—it’s completely fragmenting. In our latest episode, we talked about why two former Christian publishing professionals (Mick Silva and David Morris), have shifted so strongly toward a new model of authors aiming not for everyone, but for the readers that specifically fit them. Based on Kevin Kelly’s “1,000 True Fans“ concept, this episode, as usual, gave us plenty to discuss. Why a massive reach isn't necessary anymore to succeed as an author Why you need to be able to define your specific audience in a sentence How to start finding those "1000 true fans"Publisher and Literary Agent David Morris is at DavidRMorris.me Editor Mick Silva is at MickSilva.comSubscribe for more, and join the conversation at Substack: publishingdisrupted.substack.comPublishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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7
More Than a Book Deal: Cara Meredith on Faithful Writing in a Changing Industry
In this episode of Publishing Disrupted, co-hosts Mick Silva and David Morris sit down with their first-ever guest, author Cara Meredith, for an honest and layered conversation about life as a working writer navigating faith, publishing, and purpose.Cara is the author of the new book Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation, a memoir-meets-cultural-critique that examines how white evangelical institutions shaped—and in many cases harmed—a generation.Together, we unpack what it really means to pursue writing as vocation, the spiritual and professional toll of publishing in evangelical spaces, and what happens when a flagship evangelical outlet publishes a highly critical review. Cara also shares the practical realities of marketing your own book, building authentic author relationships, and sustaining creativity in the midst of competing demands.This is a rich, reflective, and inspiring conversation for writers, creatives, and anyone trying to live with integrity in the shifting landscape of faith and publishing.🧵 What We Talk About in This Episode:Cara’s new book: Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a GenerationHer “three-legged stool” approach to life and vocation as a writerNavigating the shift from evangelical to progressive publishingHow to build author relationships and leverage your networkDealing with criticism and reviews that misrepresent your workSetting boundaries, taking breaks, and staying groundedDisrupting the norms of religious publishing—for good🔗 Episode LinksCara Meredith’s website: https://www.carameredith.comBuy Cara’s book, Church Camp: Broadleaf Books – Church CampMick Silva's editing & coaching: https://www.micksilva.comDavid Morris' publishing and agenting: https://davidrmorris.meSubscribe for MoreLike what you’re hearing? Don’t miss future episodes. Follow us and join the conversation over on Substack: 👉 https://publishingdisrupted.substack.com/We explore how publishing is changing—and how writers can stay grounded and grow through the disruption.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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How to Develop Your Authentic Voice and Give Readers What They Want
In this fifth episode, we get into another fundamental shift in the publishing world: book development. The old playbook of “authority from on high” is dead. Long live the authentic voice!There's the three elements of book proposals: platform (your ability to reach readers), concept (a current, but time-honored topic), and craft (your “method” and ability to deliver the goods). But the craft must now derive primarily from an authentic voice emerging from your personal process, rather than from presumed or external authority.Which helps explain why “for the Bible tells me so” doesn’t work so well anymore. Because basically this anti-traditional, anti-establishment culture wants a different kind of authority.So we then discussed how the three-act story structure can serve even nonfiction authors working to incorporate a more humble, vulnerable approach, and how the ending shouldn’t be neat and tidily resolved, but somewhat ambiguous and inclusive of complexity (i.e. authentic).Bottom line: readers want to see real life-change in their books these days. So come along and let's get into it!Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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5
Author Marketing Should Be Disruptive (or at least not suck)
Everyone knows the worst part about selling books is the selling part. That darned author-marketing! So in this episode, we break down a recent post by popular author-marketing guru, Dan Blank, and discuss the difference between being "intentional" and being *integrative*--replacing the agenda-driven drudgery with some creative fun while generating interest in your books.You really can find and craft your authentic voice in today's online world!Also, David has some takeaways from the Independent Booksellers Association conference, and gets a bit personal about my social media posts, as examples of creative marketing that doesn't feel coercive or forced (which was very kind! But I'm not selling books myself yet). Dan Blank's post on Substack: The Creative Shift by Dan Blank (How One Author Found Her Voice Online)And you can follow us too while you're at it: Mick Silva Editing and David R. MorrisAnd even on the Facebooks, if you like: Me and Dr. DavidPublishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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4
Navigating the New Publishing Maze
"Do I need an editor?" "Is my book any good?" "Do I need an agent?" These have been the common questions of hopeful writers for generations. But these days, looking to navigate the ever-shifting landscape of publishing is far more complex. In this conversation, we pull back the curtain on what really happens behind the scenes in book publishing, and offer some honest insight and guidance about what authors need to succeed, regardless of whether they're publishing conventionally or going independent.Whether you're pursuing traditional or independent publishing, in this episode we aimed to help answer the typical questions, and provide some of the education that separates future authors from the rest of the pack.Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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3
Do Big Profit-Driven Publishers Produce a Positive Predicament?
Even our AI assistant had trouble titling this one! But in this second episode, Mick and David picked up their discussion of the major factors disrupting modern publishing, hitting some highlights: Big mergers and their impact on book acquisitionsHow authors (and small publishers) can deal with truncated selling cycles Why publishing has become so much more dependent on author publicityand How personal stories (memoirs & author-centered nonfiction) are making a comebackWe close out with some hope that cultural conversations can take center stage in small grassroots publishing again, as the shifting landscape grows ever more diverse...come along!Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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2
Welcome to the Disruption
A new podcast from two "former book industry experts." Editor Mick Silva and publisher and literary agent David Morris cover all manner of things for professional authors trying to navigate the ever-changing publishing landscape. In this first episode, we introduce some bigger questions: Why books still matter Can you make money at "creative expression?"Is being "indy" better than being corporate? Can authors find more fun and less frustration?David also shared a bit about the biggest disruptor--digital publishing--and what it means for authors. Publishing Disrupted is at PublishingDisrupted.substack.comMick Silva is at MickSilvaEditing.substack.comDavid Morris is at dvdmorris.substack.com, LakeDriveBooks.com, and Hyponymous.com.
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ABOUT THIS SHOW
Exploring the ways in which book publishing is changing and how writers can best meet the challenge. A conversation between two publishing veterans and friends, editor Mick Silva and publisher and literary agent David Morris. MickSilva.com / DavidRMorris.me
HOSTED BY
Mick Silva and David Morris
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