Unboxing It with Lara and Rowan

There is a fine line between “I can’t change” and “I don’t want to change”. We talk about that difference, and the times when it might be worth exploring whether or not change is something you actually want to make. If it is, what mindset shifts can you make to create it? Transcript(please note, these are not edited for accuracy so might be wonky)Rowan: I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that.[00:00:39] Lara: Welcome to Unboxing It. I’m Lara.[00:00:41] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.[00:00:43] Lara: And we are gonna talk a little bit about who we are and whether or not we should just accept who we are in every given moment, or whether or not there’s room to spend some time thinking about it.[00:00:58] Rowan: It’s a more complicated issue than people realize it is.[00:01:02] Lara: It is.And I think that it comes down to, you know, there’s parts of us that say, “Well, that’s just who I am,” and that means you are digging your heels in and trying to demonstrate that you are empowered and not letting other people change you. And the other side of it is that I think when people say, “That’s just who I am,” it’s because they feel like it’s the opposite of being empowered.It’s where I see people saying, like, “That’s just how it goes.” And, certainly as I just said that, I was like, “Oh, that’s what I do with feeling sick. That’s just who I am, I feel sick.” But there are things that you can do. There are ways that you can look into things. There are times when doing a little reflection means that you could change things.And once you’ve done that reflection and you come up with the end result where you’re back to the same place, “Yes, that is who I am.” I think the reason this conversation is important is the difference between, “That’s just how it is,” and, “I’ve spent time thinking about this, and I have figured out that this is how it is.”And it’s such a small difference ... Like, it’s a small difference when you say it, but it’s a big difference when you think about what went into deciding and embodying and figuring out what works for you as a human being.[00:02:30] Rowan: I have so many examples of this in my personal life, but we can talk about it in a bigger context right now, a more general context.When you kept saying it like that, when you kept going like, “ That’s just who I am,” it made me think of a dad. You know? Like a stubborn middle-aged dad- Yeah ... who’s just like, “No. I, you know, I don’t do that. That’s just who I am. I don’t do that stuff.” and that is, I think we all know a dad like that.We all know a man like that. And we know some women like that. We know a lot of people like that in general. But,I know so many men like that, especially older men, who just say, “Oh, that’s just who I am. I’m not gonna change.” And it’s almost a defiance thing. Like, I think in that particular case- It feels really tied into something else that I was talking about earlier this week on Threads.I think it was yesterday. There was a, man who was talking about how he tried to be vulnerable online, and he deleted the post because he was told by a lot of people, “Women have it worse. Women have it worse.” And so he just, he’s like, “Look, if we wanna change things, we have to leave room for men to be able to be vulnerable, too.”And this led to a much deeper conversation where he got a lot of support, including from me, because I said, “Look, I’m the same person. But I lived as a woman for over 40 years, and I was allowed to express my feelings. I was allowed to grow. I was allowed to be vulnerable. I was allowed to do those things.And then now that the world sees me as a man, Like, same person, same emotions, same everything, same level of vulnerability, and I am often encouraged to keep it to myself.” And I think when we think about a man in that context, but maybe just a lot of people in general,it’s people who have tried to explore things maybe in the past, maybe a long time ago.Maybe when they were kids. Maybe they tried to make a change, and they were shut down. They were shut down really fast. society really loves to keep people in boxes. We’ve talked about this a lot. And so how much of this is learned behavior, and how much of this is maybe fear of pushing back against that learned behavior?[00:04:46] Lara: Yeah. I think it’s probably a lot of them, or all of them. perhaps throughout your life you’ve struggled to have emotional conversations, and it went badly when you tried to. I mean, this is the example you just gave. But,, that gets reinforced to the point where you think it’s not worth trying anymore.And I don’t know that everybody thinks... I don’t even know that this makes sense, but I think that there are times when people are like, “There’s no point.” Right? “So it’s not that I’m not willing to look into it. there’s no point. I’ve tried. This has been hard my whole life.I can’t change it.” And-[00:05:26] Rowan: Mm ...[00:05:26] Lara: maybe, maybe there’s some truth to that, but there’s also the idea that you can look at something in a different way, right? It’s not, that you don’t just have to try harder You don’t have to just push harder. You don’t have to be stricter. You have to think about things and unpack it.You have to ask yourself some questions. You have to ask yourself what you’re willing to do to change it. You have to ask yourself if you believe that an alternative, ending or way of being is possible. because if you don’t believe it’s possible, it’s not gonna happen.[00:06:04] Rowan: Yeah. and also I think we need to really examine the why, right? I think genuinely when we look at changing ourselves as human beings and whether or not it is worth putting the work into making that change, maybe we are pushing against beliefs, maybe we are pushing against,intrinsic behaviors we’ve had for a really long time.Maybe we’re pushing against fear. There has to be a strong reason to do that. So whenever I’m looking at making changes in my own life, I often ask myself, “ Is what I’m doing right now, is the way I’m living right now, is the way I’m behaving right now, is that working for me?” If it’s working for me, then there’s really no reason to examine it.But if it’s not working for me, no matter how difficult it might be for me to make that change, I still have to do it. I still have to at least try to do it. Because I go back to my transness, and I know I do that a lot, but it is a very... I think trans people have a special place in society in which we do something that is very difficult to do, and that a lot of people don’t understand, and we do it anyway because we really need to.we have to. And so that’s why I keep going back to that as an example in a lot of our episodes. But I, in a lot of ways, had it made as a woman, if you will, right? I was a very successful woman in my own right. was a mother. I was a wife. I literally was, like, you know, the keynote speaker multiple times at women’s events, International Women’s Day.I was, and this will only matter to Canadians, but I was a Chatelaine Woman of the Year. I was a 2020 Woman of Influence, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, as far as women go,I was doing really well at womaning. But I was miserable I was absolutely miserable. It was like a suit that never fit me. And transitioning, especially as a public figure, especially with other trans people already in my family, bringing on the whole idea of it being a contagion or something somehow-perpetuating that kind of stereotype,, that misinformation that can really harm our community. I mean, for so many reasons, being middle-aged. I mean, It was extremely challenging to do this. But I also knew that what I was doing before and who I was before wasn’t working.It just wasn’t who I was. And so that I use as an example simply because it is an extreme example, in some ways, of The way that I’m living or who I am right now just isn’t working for me. And so at that point, do I just keep going, “Well, that’s just who I am”? Because you know what? I tried the self-acceptance thing.I tried to just be like, “Well, I’m a woman.” I mean, gosh, I could not get more woman than I was, if you really wanna look at it that way. It didn’t work. So when we are examining the idea of making changes, if it is a really difficult change, it doesn’t mean necessarily that it can’t be done. It just means that we need enough motivation to do it.[00:09:24] Lara: And potentially support. So certainly as a coach, and my work as a business coach, I always leaned a little bit more to mindset and,you know, not quite life coach-y, but, it felt like that with some people, right? Because one of the things that I could often see were mindsets and ways of being that weren’t just about, well, if you just do this thing, change your pricing, and everything will be better.It’s like some of it is you don’t believe it, and that, ... maybe you need to look at that. Some of it is around confidence. I mean, mindset impacts every little, tiny inch of our lives, right? Like, it’s everywhere. And being certain that something can’t change when the result of that thing is ultimately making you unhappy is just giving in, in my opinion, right?so if you are ultimately unhappy because of something that you think is just how you are, then to me it’s worth saying, “ Well- Can we unpack that and figure out what we can do instead? And it doesn’t always mean transitioning, right? It can mean- ... just a little bit of introspection and a little bit of...So a good one for me is what if, right? So what if this bad thing happens? What if this bad thing happens? What if this bad thing happens? And... I know it’s annoying when you’re in that mode of what if, terrible, terrible, terrible. If somebody’s like, “But what if it all works out?” Is understandably annoying.But also, if you can start to, like, even consider a little bit of what if it worked out, even if it goes along with your what if it doesn’t work out, but just, like, it’s still there as an option, that starts to change your brain. It starts to change everything about what you believe is worth trying and doing.And so sometimes it’s just considering, I’m not saying you have to believe it, I’m saying consider one alternative and try that on. Ask yourself to keep considering alternatives and see what happens. it can be as small as that. What if this is a good idea instead of something that’s going to mean something bad?And if right away you come to the conclusion that no, it is not a good idea, then that’s okay. But if there’s an option for it to be something that works, let yourself, feel that just a little bit.[00:12:02] Rowan: I like that. it’s like planting the seed and you don’t have to do anything with it just yet. You’ve planted the seed.And just allowing yourself to entertain the thought that maybe some level of change could happen is huge. And I feel like I went off on a tangent about transness, and I could already hear 2018 Twitter getting big mad at me.because ... And this is why I always, bring this up, because I do think it’s important. we do have to at least bring the idea of privilege into any conversation like this. Some people, if we go to, say all the way to transition, it’s simply not safe for them to transition, so they don’t have that option, right?There are a lot of things that can get in our way. And also I think that sometimes we can tell ourselves that there are too many obstacles in our way- As a way of not even entertaining it. So I think both can be true. I think privilege and the obstacles that some people face are very, very real and sometimes make something impossible.That’s true. And also, and I’m use myself again, sometimes we tell ourselves stories about where we’re at. Like, I remember telling myself a story for years that I could never make anything of myself because I only have a high school education.And as I’ve mentioned a million times on this podcast, I tried to go to school as a teenager, and I had a lot of obstacles, including some housing insecurity that made it very difficult for me to go to school and graduate. So I didn’t. I went back much later at 37. I graduated at 38 years old with a high school diploma.I do not have any more education than that. And for years, what I struggled with was that I could never be, I’m gonna use air quotes ‘cause this means different things to different people, successful because I didn’t have anything beyond high school. I could never be anything I wanted to be because I don’t have the education.And if you’re looking at, like, I could never be a doctor, or I could never be a lawyer, yeah, that’s true. I could never be an engineer. Truth. That’s... You actually have to go get a degree for those things. But I limited myself for such a long time. I told myself that over and over and over. the idea of even trying felt pointless.And I didn’t have that education privilege. I really didn’t. I didn’t have the money to go to school. I didn’t have the means to go to school. I had three kids at that time. Money was very tight. There was no way, in a lot of ways, that I could go to school. and that’s a story I told.But I actually did manage to become quite successful in ways that matter to me and in some ways that I thought would matter to me and then ended up not really mattering, but I digress. I have a really amazing life now. I have a life that is extremely fulfilling. I have achieved all the things I’ve always dreamed about achieving, true story, and I only have a high school education.So what changed? What changed was I stopped telling myself that I could never do anything that I set my mind to because I didn’t have enough education. So I, again, I think both things can be true at the same time.[00:15:26] Lara: And there’s just endless examples like this, right? It’s, “I’m not smart enough.” Well- Maybe you’re not smart in certain ways because not all of us are equally smart in all ways.Maybe you are taking some kind of measure of your intelligence that was not the best way to measure your intelligence and just deciding that that’s true forevermore. But no matter what, everybody has different strengths in different areas. And if you say, “Well, I struggle with this kind of thing,” and then instead we say, “Okay, so what do you not struggle with, and how can we use that to your advantage?”And if we can pinpoint that thing that feels easier for you, and move with it, then suddenly you can see opportunities you couldn’t see before. But if you’re stuck in, “I can’t do it, I can’t do it, I can’t do it,” then you’re right, you can’t do it. But if you’re willing to stop and consider other options.So an example might be if you say, “Well, I’m not a good writer,” which I’ve talked to a lot of people who’ve told me they’re not a good writer, but they’re great on video or they’re great with their hands. And those things are very important also, so lean into that and don’t tell yourself you can’t do anything because you believe that you need to be a good writer in order to be successful at anything.And I do think that’s how some people feel, right? Like, if I was going to be somebody who could be successful, I need to be like this, like this, like this, like this, whatever the list that they’ve created is. And if they don’t believe that they can be those things, then that blocks them off from success versus let’s look at, a different path, a different door, a different measure of success, and suddenly all kinds of new possibilities pop up.[00:17:20] Rowan: It really is about utilizing what you have. again, there is that nuance. There is that nuance where you have, maybe somebody isn’t a strong writer, and - they don’t have that natural ability to throw words onto paper. and there are a million people who are actually very good at writing who, don’t realize they’re good at writing so there’s that too.But if you don’t, try to figure out how to grow, and growing’s going to look different for all of us. Like, I can accept... I have an anxiety disorder, and, Lara, you were instrumental at reminding me early last year that I should really go back on my meds, right? Because I was not in a good place, and I did go back on my meds, and I take them every day, and I am in a much, much better situation because of it, so thank you.and I will always have an anxiety disorder. I know that because I have had it my entire life, since I was too young to even know what a panic attack was. I’ve always had an anxiety disorder. it’s just, that is the way my brain works, and so it is, in its own way... I don’t know if I’d go as far as to classify it as a disability, but it certainly does , get in front of a lot of things that I try to do sometimes.But I’ve stopped telling myself that I can’t do things because I have an anxiety disorder, and that’s something I did for a long time, and now I’m like, “No, you know what? I can take bigger risks even with an anxiety disorder.” What I need, though, is to find ways to manage it, and I need to work on a lot of cognitive behavioral techniques and that sort of thing so that I can manage the stress when it comes up.and so that has allowed me to move forward in my life in a way that I couldn’t when I kept telling myself, “I’m too anxious for that. I’m too anxious for that. I’m too anxious for that.” That being said, if I don’t really need to do something, like for example, going into a really loud bar environment, it completely overwhelms me most of the time.it’s just too much. Too much for my brain, too much for my anxiety. I really don’t enjoy myself, right? And I could push through, but why would I push through? there’s no need to do that unless I absolutely have to, and I don’t absolutely have to, so I just choose not to do that.But if I needed to do that for some reason, I think I would have the incentive to try and figure out how to manage that better. So it really is, for me, all about accepting who I am, and making some allowances for that, but also not using who I am as a reason not to grow in the areas that I feel I need to grow.[00:20:08] Lara: Yeah. I think the that’s just who I am part becomes like a defensive roadblock, and what we’re looking for is to ask ourselves what we want and to figure out how, and maybe if, but how it’s possible. And this comes up in lots of ways. I like to- Try to find ways to push out of my comfort zone because I find that that helps me grow.So even if we go back to the example, I’m sure I’ve talked about this on the show before, but I did a stand-up comedy course, and I had a lot of anxiety and stress in multiple parts of that experience because it was really uncomfortable. And I powered through because I wanted to have done it. If I didn’t want that experience, for example, I do not want to bungee jump.[00:20:59] Rowan: Right.[00:21:01] Lara: Same.Could I? Probably I could do it, but I really don’t want to. Therefore, pushing through the discomfort is not an incentive for me. And so whenever you say things like, “I wish I could, but I can’t,” then instead it’s more about, “I wish I could. Can I?” And that’s it. Mm-hmm. That’s the little change in what I think this conversation is important about.It’s not that you have to suddenly change things. It’s not that if you’re like, “That’s just who I am,” you have to change it all. But it is, “ Do you want to change it? Why do you wanna change it? How could it change? Are you sure that you can’t change it a little bit, even if it’s not how somebody else would expect you to change it?”But the point is that you have the ability to ask yourself what you want, decide what’s worth the effort, and do some thinking so that you’re not just stuck in, “This is what I thought it was once, 20 years ago, and therefore, that’s what it is forever.”[00:22:10] Rowan: There’s this... First of all, first of all, that was really deep.Like, could I, right? - that’s huge. - That is the key. As opposed to just completely blocking it out, it was just allowing yourself that permission to explore it, that’s huge.I forgot the other thing I was going to say, because that is just what happens when I, uh, you know- That’s[00:22:30] Lara: just who[00:22:30] Rowan: you are.Uh,yeah. That’s just who I am. Okay, I figured it out. I wanted to talk about the science behind this because I think some of this has happened because - we’ve known for a long time, because it’s very obvious, that when you’re young, you’re constantly learning. You look at a baby, and the baby grows, and the baby’s learning.And then suddenly it’s a toddler, and they’re learning new words, and then they, running. And this goes on and on, and you even watch it through, like, adolescence. And then by about 25, in most brains, the frontal lobe stops developing, and we have considered for a very long time that then people are fully formed.And so the story, the science told for a very long time is that is who we are. And we’ve talked about nature versus nurture, and there’s been a lot of back and forth about that, and whether or not we just come out the way we are, or are we made that way through experience or a little bit of both? But what has been more recent that a lot of neuroscientists are now talking about is neuroplasticity, which basically means our brains are still able to develop new neural pathways throughout our entire lives, and that is so cool.Learning that was a big part of how I learned that I could change some of my behaviors that I thought were very stuck, that they were rigid, that my brain had stopped developing. This is where I was, and then suddenly, I’m introduced, through YouTube videos by neuroscientists, to the concept of neuroplasticity.And I really encourage people to look this up. If you really think, “This is who I am and I can’t change. I can never change this,” that might be true of some things. Certainly, there are some things. Some people just have a bit more of a sense of humor. Some people are a little more laid back. Some people are a little more, forgetful.Or, like, there are certainly some things in our lives that, are not, necessarily going to change, easily at least. but neuroplasticity allows us to develop new mindsets. It allows us to develop new behaviors, and so it is never too late. I’m a very different person approaching 50 than I was even five years ago, and it’s not just because I transitioned.It’s because I allowed myself to grow. I took risks that I never thought I would take. I was like, “Ah, I’m in love. You know what I’m gonna do? Leave my cozy little Ottawa suburb that I have been in forever, where my entire family lives, and I have all these people I know, and, you know, I’m really well-connected in the city.I’m gonna pick up and move to Toronto,” which I never, ever thought I would do, always said I would never even consider. “ And I’m gonna do it for love, and I’m gonna see what happens.” And doing that was transformative. Suddenly- I am living a completely different life that suits me so much better. But the level of calm in my body, huge.it’s been a game changer. and , just the way I think about the world, I’ve had quite a, I don’t wanna call it a spiritual awakening, but I guess in a way, just how I see the world, how I see the universe, how I see other people, how I... Just everything has changed dramatically. So I do think sometimes that when we know we can grow, when we know we can change something, when we know there’s at least a hope that something can change, it really does help us because people are growing all the time.I,personally believe, and everybody’s different, but I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that. So yeah, going past your comfort zone, even just a little bit, even with just that thought that you were saying, Lara,of, could I?, that can open the door to so many things.[00:26:53] Lara: Yeah. I have a little list of things that I thought of while you were talking, so I’m gonna just run through some of them.[00:26:59] Rowan: While, I was, like, on my, . Large ramble. I am a man with a podcast, you know, so I mean, y-Isn’t that the whole point, that I just want everyone to listen to me?[00:27:07] Lara: Well, and the whole point for me is that I love when my brain gets excited and thinks of all the things, so this is perfect. But , the- I think the neuroplasticity thing is huge, e- especially if you’re, our age or older, Gen X or older.We were definitely taught you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and that was really something that everybody believed was true. And then when science was like, “Actually, neuroplasticity means you can learn things all the time,” it’s just a good reminder. If you think, “I didn’t learn that, I’m now, and I can’t do it,” like, yes, you can.You can try new things. You can do new things. You can still grow and just push through things and find new ways of being. So, I think that’s such a good reminder. I was thinking of another example as we were talking about the kinds of things that people believe. It’s one I hear a lot of because of the art that I do, is like, “I’m just not a creative person.”And I don’t generally believe people when they say that because they are creative in some way, and they can find the creative endeavor that is right for them. And that’s again, that slight shift. I’m not creative. Okay. But what if you try a couple of different things and see if you like it? And that’s where if you hate it, don’t keep doing it.If you’re surprised and you want to try to, find more of those skills, then do it, right? And I think that’s ultimately what I hoped people would get out of this conversation. It’s not that we think you have to change. It’s that what my biggest hope is that you don’t think you can’t when you want to.It’s okay to want something different than you have now. It’s okay to change your mind about what you wanted before and decide that you want something new now. It’s okay to want to push into ways of being that are completely different than you used to have. If none of those things appeal to you, like maybe this conversation isn’t for you.But the point is you don’t have to feel like you’re stuck and nothing can change if you don’t want to. that’s the thing that I really hoped people would take away from this. If that’s not what you want, if you hoped that something could be different, but it feels like it couldn’t, this is when looking at it a little bit more and asking yourself a few questions could be a really interesting and worthwhile exercise.[00:29:40] Rowan: What I like to do is I like to ask myself, “Am I content?”And for a long time, I wasn’t content. There were a number of things I wanted to change. Today when I ask myself, “Am I content with who I am?” Yes, I’m very content. There’s a couple little things that I’m working on, of course. I’m always working.You know, some insecurities and, I tend to be a little defensive, which is sort of related to insecurity. So like I’m working on those things, for sure. But overall, I’m very content with who I am and where I am, so I don’t really need to change anything. If I say that’s just who I am, that’s just who I am right now.That’s okay. And you know what? If that ever stops working for me, then maybe I start to question it a little bit more. so yeah, if you are content in your life, if things are going well for you, if you are happy with who you are and how you navigate the world, great. then this conversation was not needed.If you are somebody who has resisted, personal growth or change of any kind- Because you think it’s not possible, maybe this conversation is for you- ... to at least explore it. So yeah, I think it’s a really healthy conversation to have. And if the conversation made you uncomfortable, sit with that for a little bit.Because when something has made me uncomfortable, it’s usually because deep down I need to explore it a little bit more.[00:31:07] Lara: And it’s that whole piece of, like, you can look into it without throwing yourself into a panic attack, right? we’re just stepping into little questions and ways of thinking about things that can be different to see how they feel.That’s it. It’s just a little bit of exploration.[00:31:25] Rowan: A little bit of exploration, not testosterone and top surgery. Although maybe. I mean, who knows?[00:31:31] Lara: Well, I’m just saying that’s not step one.[00:31:35] Rowan: No, it’s not step one. That’s like step 27. That’s like, it’s way down the line.[00:31:42] Lara: And just taking the time to consider things does not mean that you are now committed through to step 84, right?Like, that’s, again, part of this, is you can keep figuring things out and keep figuring out what’s best for you. And, like, let’s just see what happens.[00:31:58] Rowan: My favorite thing that I’ve seen some people do is they go, “ Okay. Yeah, I could see how that might be something I wanna look at, but I’m not gonna look at it right now, but I acknowledge the need to look at it, and I’m gonna look at it later.”That’s cool. Good for you. Maybe, you know, you don’t have the bandwidth right now, but you know it’s something you wanna look at. I commend you, right? As opposed to just r- rushing right in when maybe you’re not ready to rush right in. So yeah, it is totally okay to take everything like that at your own pace.[00:32:31] Lara: Yeah. it’s that empowered piece, right? It’s not that life is happening to you. It’s not that you don’t have control. It’s just that you do have enough control to say, “Maybe one day, but not right now.” And so keep just stretching into things. Keep asking questions. Keep questioning when you feel stuck to figure out what alternatives could exist.And that’s what I hope people take away from today.[00:32:58] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. This was such a cool conversation, and it’s got me thinking all kinds of ways. if you have anything to say about this, if you are excited we talked about this, uncomfortable we talked about this, big mad that we talked about this, feel free to drop us a line.You can send us a message, via email. You can write something on our Substack. We love to hear from you. Feel free to hit the subscribe button, download all of our latest episodes. And, if you are somebody who has something to say, if you think that we have missed something important and you are someone who is knowledgeable in that area, let us know.Maybe we can have you on for an episode.[00:33:44] Lara: Love it. I will also say, if you enjoy the show, we would love some more reviews on Apple Music, Spotify, all the places. So just remember that. We appreciate your time and effort with leaving us ratings and reviews. And I think that’s it for this time. We will see you all again in two weeks.Have a great, have a great life. Have a great life. I don’t know.[00:34:10] Rowan: Have a great life.[00:34:12] Lara: But, like, not in a mean way. I mean it. I mean it. It’s a sincere-[00:34:15] Rowan: Have a wonderful- We’re just gonna leave this in. we’re leaving that one in. That’s like... Like, , this is just, complete honesty. I, I love it.let’s just blooper this thing. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. We’ll see you next time. This is a public episode. 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Rowan here, and I have a confession: I love Coldplay. In fact, they’re my favourite band. How do you feel about that?The reaction I get when I tell people varies, but I’m often met with negativity. “I can’t stand their music.” “They’re so overplayed.” “There are tons of indie bands that are way better, you know.”I’m one of those people who likes something popular that is often ridiculed by others. Think of the Twilight fans, Hunger Games stans, or the Swifties (and if you’re Canadian, Nickelback will come to mind, too.) But it’s not just popular things that get that kind of negativity. As humans, we’re quick to dismiss just about anything that doesn’t intrigue or excite us.When you don’t like something that someone else likes, do you tell them? And more importantly: If you do, why do you tell them? Where does that come from?This week, Lara and I talk about yucking other people’s yums and why this is so pervasive in our culture. We remind each other that we don’t all experience the same things the same way, and share some different phrasing we can all use so that we aren’t making someone else feel bad.*Let us know what you think about the judgment we hold for other people’s likes. And now I’m off to listen to Parachutes.(*Exception: Financially supporting JK Rowling. We get into that, too.) Transcript[00:00:00] Lara: you cannot like it, that’s fine, but I will not accept that.You say nobody should like this. Just because you don’t like it.[00:00:33] Rowan: Welcome to this week’s episode of Unboxing It. My name is Rowan.[00:00:36] Lara: And I’m Lara.[00:00:37] Rowan: and this week we’re covering a topic that we have chatted about ourselves just for funsies, and thought we should make this an actual.Episode and that is the concept of, and you’ve all heard this before, probably don’t yuck other people’s. Yum. What does that mean to you, Lara?[00:00:57] Lara: It means that just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad , or it doesn’t mean somebody else isn’t allowed to like something.[00:01:08] Rowan: Right, right. And then if you take that a step further, you can take that into the kink world, because that’s where I first heard of it. just from the outskirts,as a queer person listening in, when people are describing things like kinks and fetishes, and they’ll say, don’t yuck someone else’s, yum.It just means like everyone’s into different things. Something that you might really, like, somebody else might not really like or vice versa, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong or bad. So you can take that from like the fetish side of things all the way to what we have discussed. you know, books that have been really popular, for example?[00:01:48] Lara: Yeah. No, it’s all kinds of things. obviously it can be used everywhere. Kink, not where I’ve heard of it first, which is fine, but I think you know, , it really comes down to, I think in times past it was quite normalized to think that your way is the right way and that telling everybody that, Was a good idea, right? So, nope, we don’t do it like that. We don’t dress like that. You don’t wear white after Labor Day. Like ? Why is that something that I know as a rule? Because who cares what color you wear when but somehow that was like something people would say, enough that I’ve heard it and people would insist this is how you do things.This is how you dress at certain times. This is how you don’t dress. This is how you, Do your hair. there’s a million things where people are like, this is the correct way and therefore it is fine for me to say that your way if it is not that way, is wrong.[00:02:49] Rowan: I first got introduced to this concept, probably a lot earlier than that, back in, elementary school. I remember that people were wearing Converse or, converse all stars back in the eighties. I couldn’t afford Converse. My parents got me Panthers. It was the Zellers version. And if you’re Canadian, you know exactly what I’m talking about when I say the Zellers version of something.Unless you’re a really young Canadian, in which case. I’m sorry you did not get to experience the amazingness. That was Zellers.. but more so when I got into music and it was almost like you had to pick a lane when it came to music. So you had, I was a head banger as we called them in the day.I liked all the,metal bands, everything from, you know, mega death to the hairbands, like Motley Crewe, that sort of thing. And. That was my yum. And somebody else who was really into pop might have been like. That’s awful. I hate that stuff. No, you have to like this stuff.My music’s the best. and then people who say liked rock would say, ah, pop, it’s all fabricated. It’s synth. It’s,just, recorded one track at a time. or these metal bands, they go in and they all play together, which wasn’t necessarily true, but that’s what we believed. And youwould have this, back and forth of, mine is the best, no, yours is the best.And. We see that now, but almost in a different way too. I remember when speaking of kinks, 50 Shades of Gray came out. I think a lot of us of a certain era of a certain age, remember when that book came out and I never read it. I never read it specifically, not because I had an issue at the time with the content, although there’s been much discussion about the content these days and it’s been really analyzed in different ways and made a lot of people think.But at the time it wasn’t because it was, offensive to me somehow. It was more that a friend of mine whose opinion I really respect. Asked me, have you read this book yet? And I said, no. And she said, don’t read it. it’s terribly written. It’s gonna, as a writer, it’s going to drive you crazy.You’re not gonna be able to handle it. And I will admit that first of all, I do not consider myself a fantastic writer. other people have said that they think I’m a good writer. Thank you. I don’t think I’m terrible. I just don’t think I’m like way up there like a lot of people whose writing I really respect.But I wouldn’t say I’m a bad writer either. But again, that’s debatable. I have an issue with. Poorly edited books more than anything. I think a lot of writers,you know, we write our drafts and then we send them to the editor and then the editor sends them back. And if we’re lucky, we have a really good editor who can kind ofpoint out where we can maybe not repeat the same words or phrases all the time.Maybe we can switch things up, use a different word here, use a, different way of describing this there. And. I find sometimes, and this is what she was telling me with this particular book, she said the thing that would drive me crazy was that it repeated itself a lot. There wasn’t a lot of originality in the wording, and so it would be really hard to get into the story.If you take that, you kind of transpose it into a lot of other things. You have people who have said the same thing about Twilight. You’ve had people who said the same things about, I mean, I could just go on, there’s a lot of books - Shopaholic series. a lot of these books that have been huge for some groups of people have also been completely mocked, ridiculed, and dismissed by others.And there’s definitely a psychological phenomenon going on there.[00:06:33] Lara: Yeah, a bunch of the ones that you mentioned, 50 Shades is one, Twilight is another one. I’ve heard it about Hunger Games. Lots and lots of books get this. It’s not well written, criticism in a way that suggests to me they think you should never read or like that book.It’s not even well written. And I would like to say. Then why have millions and millions of people read the books? Loved the books, shared the books, told other people to read the books, right? I think part of it is that it’s a compelling story to many people and whether or not it is exceptionally well written.It obviously didn’t take away from the story that people are loving. Right. Could it have been written better or more grammatically correct, or edited better? All of those things? Sure. But people still liked it, which tells me that it was good regardless. You know?I guess it depends what. Definition of good you’re using, but if people liked it, then stop acting like they shouldn’t like it because it wasn’t written a certain way.I also think the way that I read. I don’t know that I skim everything, but I do skim sections. I skip sections. If I’m like, just take me to the next dialogue, or like,I’ll just take like the feeling of a paragraph instead of reading it carefully. So I’m very happy with the book, There’s no issue that I have with the writing, and when people are like, this is written so poorly, how could you have read it?I’m like, oh. Okay. I think I’m much better now. I don’t really care if people say that now, but there was a time where I’d be like, oh, it makes you feel like, oh, I shouldn’t have liked it. Or maybe I’m not good enough in English to know when something’s badly written. Right? Like there’s a lot that comes with people saying it’s badly written, you should never read it.It’s different to say as somebody who I know really appreciates, literature of a certain kind, I don’t think you will enjoy this book, which is very different than don’t read it. It’s terrible in every way. And it just really gets me when people act like a book that is as popular as Twilight or 50 shades is just being slammed constantly.just don’t read it. Then[00:08:57] Rowan: as a species, we really enjoy being morally superior. I do know this psychological reasoning and I had to research it for, funny enough, my last book and shaming others for something has. A survival element to it. So hear me out. When we all used to live back in cave days and you had a small group of people you relied on for everything, say 15, 20 people, you’re all living together.If one of those people wasn’t doing what the rest of them were doing, if one of those people was not pulling their weight or whatever it might be, you had to figure out either. How to get them to change their ways or how to get them to leave your group, because otherwise everything would probably fall apart and you wouldn’t live very long.So the theory from anthropologists, from what I understand, is that our bodies learned to give us those little hits of dopamine when we would. Publicly gang up on someone.And it makes a lot of sense in those days for survival reasons, it doesn’t make a lot of sense.It doesn’t translate well to our modern culture. And we see that, for example, in all those pile-ons on the internet. Like, you see someone have a bad take or what you think is a bad take, and then you see that 300 people have already told this person all the things you were going to tell them, right?Like you were going to say they were wrong for all of these reasons, you still do it anyway. You still pile on. That’s why it’s a pile on, and it’s because. Usually you’re getting a little reward. Your reward center is sending you something. And I think that translates to even things like books, movies, music, clothing, anything that makes you right in some area and somebody else wrong in that same area.So the other phenomenon that I think happens here is that. The more popular something is, the more eyes are on it. The more scrutiny it gets, the more analysis it gets, the more people have opinions on it, the more people get tired of hearing about it. Maybe the more they might, in some cases, feel morally superior if they never.read it. Never watched it. Never subscribed to it, because. That’s not for them. And then you get kind of that, hipster phenomenon there, right? Where like, I liked it before, it was cool. Or, you know, that artist was great until, they got too big. Or you see it all over the place and it is worth having a look at because a lot of it can come down to our own insecurities like I used to be.That person a hundred percent. I was that person. I will own that. I’m not proud of it, but it would be a disservice to say that I wasn’t that guy. I wasn’t identifying as a guy then, but I wasn’t that person. But it was because deep down, I was really insecure. I was insecure about certain things.So if I could latch onto something that made me feel better, for example, saying, Ugh. I never read 50 Shades. I hear it was badly written or, , I watched Twilight. It was ridiculous. I would never watch it. Why do you like that so much? Or whatever it might be, right? Like I think that gave me that little dopamine hit of.I am somehow better than you. And we see that over and over in a lot of these conversations. Like there’s one thing to have an opinion and go, ah, it wasn’t really for me. you know, , why didn’t you like it? Oh, I just, didn’t like these elements. But you know, like, Hey, to each their own. That’s very different than what is wrong with you for that being your favorite thing.[00:13:04] Lara: Yes, exactly, because it’s fine for you to not like it, but I don’t think it’s fine for you to tell me that. Me liking it makes me somebody who doesn’t understand what a good book is, right? Like those are very different things, and I do think part of it is a confidence thing. I think part of it is, if.I don’t like something other people like, well then what’s wrong with me? Right? There’s so many things that come up and make us feel uncomfortable, but we all get to like different things for different reasons and for sure, this is something I’ve said a million times on this podcast already, but.Everywhere else, we are all different. We all process things differently. We all have different emotions, we have different backgrounds. that sounds really obvious when I say it, but it’s not obvious to many people when they don’t think about it and they just assume everybody thinks like them.They assume everybody. Would want the same things as them, and therefore they put out information in a way that suggests that you should do something different if you want to be correct because they’ve figured out what’s correct for them.[00:14:18] Rowan: I am going to throw a caveat in here. It’s a big one, so get ready. I take a strong stand. Against people supporting Harry Potter.[00:14:30] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:14:31] Rowan: I think that if you are for trans people, if you are for trans rights, you cannot at the same time support a franchise where the billionaire behind that franchise is using that money openly and proudly to squash trans rights around the world.[00:14:55] Lara: Yes, and I think that’s such a different conversation, right? There’s the part where, I mean, I suppose if people are like, well, my yum are racist, transphobic people. Then I guess I don’t think you should have that. Yum,[00:15:09] Rowan: I’m gonna yuck that one.[00:15:10] Lara: Yeah, yuck. I need to yuck it too. But I think that there’s a difference between we just have a difference of opinion and when somebody is supporting somebody who, I think is terrible, that’s different.JK Rowling is for sure, one for me. Chick-fil-A, which is coming to my neighborhood soon is one for me. There’s another one. there was a book that I read as part of a book club maybe 20 years ago called Enders Game, and it’s by Orson Scott Card. I looked it up to make sure, and I used to tell people like, if you wanna read a science fiction book, I really like this one.But then I found out he’s anti-gay, anti-gay marriage. Like he’s Throws all his money into, supporting causes. . I mean if, is that how you say that? His causes anti-gay anyway. He gives them a lot of money. His[00:15:58] Rowan: causes anti-gay?[00:16:00] Lara: Well, I don’t know.Well, I’ll never see him in my coffee shop, No, but like I don’t tell people about that book anymore. I don’t. Read it. Like I reread books sometimes I’ll be like, I’m not reading that. Like it’s, there’s no financial, impact for him if I don’t reread a book I already own. But like for me, I’m not doing it. I’m not gonna reread Harry Potter again, even though I own all the books.[00:16:25] Lara: end of story. I just, I’m not willing to support or pretend that. The person who created this isn’t terrible, and that’s that, how do you separate the art from the artist conversation? Because it’s certainly a hot topic and people feel different ways about it. But to me, most of the time, if I found out somebody’s terrible, I don’t want to have anything to do with that thing, no matter how much I liked it in the beginning.End of story.[00:16:55] Rowan: Yeah. look, I know a lot of people who grew up on Harry Potter. My kids, among them, one of my kids is trans, so that sucks. not that they’re trans. It sucks that they all grew up on those books and then had to find out that she really doesn’t like people, like one of them and myself.it’s one thing to say, ah, Hogwarts really shaped me. Like that whole world really was a big part of my childhood, and there’s still a part of me that thinks about it sometimes and remembers when I dressed up as. Hermione for Halloween or whatever. Like,I get that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.I’m not saying you should erase all your memories and always remember that this woman is a terrible person that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is time that you purchase anything that is Harry Potter related, you are , directly supporting someone. Who wants to eradicate my rights.[00:17:58] Lara: Yep.[00:17:59] Rowan: And that is a direct attack. on me, so to speak. Like I understand that the person doing it might not be hateful. in fact, I’m sure that most of the time they’re not. Sometimes it’s ignorance. Although, to be honest at this point I feel like it’s almost willful ignorance not to understand what she’s doing because she’s very open about it.She makes it most of her personality right now, you just have to go see for yourself. go to x, go have a look at what she says. Right. It’s very open. but yeah I think that there’s a difference between your reading a book or a series. I might not necessarily like. And you are supporting someone through their work who is trying and succeeding, I might add in causing great harm to others.and I know,there’s a difference between doing it and not being aware of it. And doing it even once you’re aware of it because you’re like, she’s already rich. What’s one more, purchase going to matter at this point? Well, it matters. It matters because it continues to get her licensing somewhere.So you mentioned Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A is another one that is very anti LGBT. The owners are very prominently anti LGBT and so supporting them directly. Goes to funding things that harm LGBT people, hobby Lobby in the US. there is definitely for me, a big disconnect.That is when I’ll yuck someone’s yum. But what I’m actually yucking or your ethics at that point. Sure. It’s not that you like something, I don’t care if you like Harry Potter or not. I am at that point disappointed by your choices because your choices are telling me who you are as a person, which is someone who is not safe for me to be around.[00:19:49] Lara: Yeah, you can love a Chick-fil-A chicken sandwich taste wise and still not buy it because you don’t wanna support people who are doing bad things. Like I think those are different. You know, one of my examples of. Don’t yuck. Someone’s yum. Is I once held this workshop and I had workbook. I had purchased and it was very like big hippie kind of looking women drawings all over.It was really bright colors. And I had somebody at my workshop who could not stop talking about how ugly it was and how who would ever want something like this and why would you ever buy this? And I was like, first of all, I bought it. Second of all. why don’t you try, this is not to my taste, because you cannot like it, that’s fine, but I will not accept that.You say nobody should like this. Just because you don’t like it. And it’s not to my taste. It’s something that I think that was the first day I said it, but like I have said it so much and it makes me happy. Every time I hear one of my children say, oh, this is not to my taste, because yeah, don’t tell me it’s gross if you didn’t like dinner.But you can say, this is not to my taste, and that is fine. Go ahead. But I like it, that’s why I made it. So be quiet.[00:21:12] Rowan: Yeah, I just don’t really have the energy to deal with people who go out of the way to hurt someone else’s feelings because they think their opinion is more important than somebody else’s thing that they really like.Like my response, if somebody says something like, Do you like my shirt? Not that I get asked that very much, but I just, you know, do you like my shirt? My response will honestly be, you know what? It’s not something I would personally wear, but. I can see really love it, and that makes it look great on you.You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. Because I mean, that’s true. Like I think if somebody really loves something and is proud of it,it brings them joy. why would you go outta your way to hurt their feelings? it’s just not front of mind for me, and it’s not even in my periphery.It’s just not something I want to do. But again. I used to do it, and I used to do it because my feelings of insecurity, my deep down need to feel like I wasn’t worthless, I wish it was exaggerating, but there was a lot going on inside of me before I figured myself out. But that really deep need to feel like I wasn’t awful, that usurped.My kindness sometimes. My kindness now I think is front and center, but also I’m much more confident. the nice thing about working in a coffee shop all day. Is I see a variety of people come in and everyone is so unique, especially when you work in the queer village, like everybody is so unique and brings their own flavor of life in there.And it is really opened my eyes to. How beautiful that is. I already loved diversity. I love it even more now, and I love that I can walk into a bookstore and there are thousands and thousands of books on the shelves, and that each one of them is written for someone. Each one of them is gonna be something that somebody picks up and goes.That’s what I love, like. I love Bigfoot, love Cryptids, but especially Bigfoot’s, my guy. Bigfoot’s my guy a hundred percent. He is real. Don’t care what any of you say. No, don’t care about your science. I did my own research. Bigfoot’s the real deal. Thank you. and sometimes people laugh at me because I love Bigfoot so much.I’ve got stickers all over my laptop. I have a couple shirts, like I love the dude. It’s great. And that I, can I tell you why? No, I could not tell you why. I just know that the idea that there might be some weird creature out there that people have seen, but we’ve never been able to prove and you know, did they really see it?Or was it a bear or, it brings me so much joy. So if I’m gonna be that guy that likes Bigfoot and Dreams about going to a Bigfoot conference but is really scared because a lot of them are in places where they vote for people that would not be, super friendly to me. and so I probably will never go if I can be that guy.Why can’t. You, whoever you might be. Like the Hunger Games, which by the way, I also really liked and read so rapidly on my, I think it was like my 40th birthday. God, I love that series, but I understand that it’s not for everybody. I don’t know, like I just don’t understand why we can’t just all have our things.[00:24:35] Lara: Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t necessarily want. To have other people feel badly when they say they don’t like something, but they don’t realize what their words can do to make other people feel. Sometimes they’re trying to be funny. It’s just a joke. I’m just trying to be funny. I was like, okay, but your joke is not nice.So know that. certainly I used to love to go on a whole bit about how I didn’t like certain kinds of things. But now I say something different. So if you said to me, Lara, I am going on a two week canoe camping trip, I might now say I love that for you because never do I ever want to do that.[00:25:23] Rowan: I love that for you.[00:25:27] Lara: I love that for you. Same with people who wanna walk the Camino oh, I love that for you.Clearly when I say that, I am saying it because I am saying that is not to my taste.[00:25:40] Rowan: I’m gonna be paying attention to that when we talk.[00:25:44] Lara: Yeah, you watch out,[00:25:47] Rowan: it’s great.[00:25:48] Lara: But I love that for you and I truly do. Like, if that is something you like, go do it. Just because I don’t wanna do it doesn’t mean it’s bad. And so I do think some of the way that we communicate. it’s just always been that way. So we’ve never noticed that some of the things we say or some of the ways we react aren’t the nicest.And if we think about it a little bit, we can likemake small tweaks that mean that we are not yucking someone’s yum in a way that is very. I don’t wanna say careless, but like they’re not even noticing they’re doing it. They’re not like intentionally being like, you are stupid for liking that.They’re just like talking without noticing that what they’re doing could make somebody else feel shitty about what they’re saying they like. And I think that it’s a simple thing to change and to start noticing and to realize is worth changing.[00:26:46] Rowan: I think this is where neurodivergents are changing the game, and so thank you to all my neuros spicy friends because special interests Are being talked about more and more. A lot of autistic people will tell you they have special interests and of course the. Stereotypical one would be trains, but there are so many, right?I have a friend who loves like urban planning, that is their thing. They love urban planning. They watch videos on urban planning and they don’t wanna do it as a job. They’re just fascinated by it. Right? to the point where I’ve met so many people like this, that I’m like, it’d be really cool to have a special interest event.At my coffee shop. Like just in the evening. where everybody can present their special interests for like 15 minutes. Everybody gets like a 15 minute window. And I think that’s so cool. And it’s the complete opposite, like the complete 180. Of yucking someone else’s.Yum. because what you’re doing is you’re giving them space to share what brings them joy and you’re learning something at the same time. Maybe you’re learning that, hey, whatever that thing that was that you thought was boring or not so good or whatever might actually be kind to cool, even if it’s not your thing, like you’re actively celebrating.Other people’s interests. That is amazing and we all need to do more of it.[00:28:13] Lara: Have you heard of these PowerPoint parties people are having now?[00:28:16] Rowan: Yeah, that’s where I got the idea from.[00:28:19] Lara: I, think it’s amazing. I love the idea, right? Everybody make a PowerPoint on your favorite thing and talk about it for 10 minutes.I’ve seen them doing it with explain your job ‘cause none of us really understand what you do. what a great thing to say. You know things I don’t know, And I would like to learn from you instead of feeling bad because you don’t know everything. Or like, there’s just so many ways that we can flip the script to being like, this is a good thing.And yeah, I really hope people just realize from this conversation, or maybe they already did and we’re just reinforcing it, that it’s fine for people to like different things than you. In fact it’s good.[00:29:01] Rowan: It’s good.Beautiful words. And the last words of this episode, I think we are going to leave it there. We would love to know what you think about this entire topic. Do you think that we are yucking people’s yum too much? As a general rule, do you think that there are good reasons for it? What did you think about the idea of not supporting problematic artists?I would love to know. I know Lara would love to know. So drop us a line, send us an email, comment on our substack. Subscribe to us anywhere you get your podcast, and we will see you next time. Thanks for joining us.[00:29:39] Lara: Thanks. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

The first Heated Rivalry Episode became our most downloaded podcast episode ever - and we know we left you hanging when we only got through 3 of Lara’s 8 topics in the first episode (she had so many notes!)Lace up those skates, because we’re back for a second episode on this megahit of a show. Today we dig into themes like consent, bi representation, and parasocial relationships.Have any other topics you’d like to us to cover? Drop us an email or let us know in the comments. And don’t forget to subscribe on Substack or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Our audience is growing and we’d love to have you join us! Transcript[00:00:00] Rowan: we need to show some grace.To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.And I’m Rowan.[00:00:38] Lara: And we are back for more Heated Rivalry, which as everyone who has been listening to the show since the beginning of 2026 knows is something I’m all right with.[00:00:50] Rowan: It’s something I’m all right with too. I mean, I wasn’t going to do two episodes on this, but I love the show since you forced me to watch it.[00:00:59] Lara: Which you’re not the only one. I have, we won’t say forced. We will say strongly encouraged to watch the show because I think it’s great. So we did episode one. It’s one of our most listened to most downloaded episodes ever. We clearly have some people who were just out there, searching for Heated Rivalry content, and I am.Thrilled to have you here and hope that you continue to enjoy the takes that we have on our topics.[00:01:28] Rowan: And like, full disclosure, I have let Lara lead this thing, so I once again do not even know what these topics are that we’re talking about today. I said. Surprise me. just lay it on me and,get my full, unfiltered reaction to whatever it is we’re talking about today.[00:01:48] Lara: Yes. So one of the things that I think I heard most from the first episode we did of Heated Rivalry content was that I announced that I had eight points I wanted to cover during our chat. And we got through three and people are like, what are the other five? So you get to hear, more of those five today and we’ll see how many we can cover this time.[00:02:12] Rowan: I’m hoping for all five, but I don’t think we’re gonna get there. I have a feeling that we’re going to have lots to talk about. So, you know, at worst, what we do, a third episode, I’m all right with that.[00:02:23] Lara: And a lot of these topics, as we did in the first one, we’re using Heated Rivalry as a point of context to talk about topics that I think were important to talk about.But then that becomes a little bit more than a conversation just about the show, right? this isn’t just, let’s pick apart . This show or this book, it’s, these are topics that come up and I’m so glad they came up and this is why, and this is, maybe how they did it, but this is why we need to keep talking about that topic because I think it’s important.So yeah, we may or may not get through them all. I also know, we’ve gotten feedback from people. They’re like, Hey, talk more about queer joy. Talk more about, So many different parts we talked about last time, we could go deeper. So who knows what the future will bring. this is not a Heated Rivalry podcast, but you know, if it’s my special interest this year, it’s gonna come up a lot.[00:03:20] Rowan: And boy has it come up a lot.[00:03:23] Lara: Listen, I try not to make it be all I talk about, but it’s relevant. It is relevant to what we do here. So let’s just bring the things I love together.[00:03:35] Rowan: Perfect. Let’s do it.[00:03:36] Lara: So the next point on my list was about consent.[00:03:42] Rowan: Mm.[00:03:43] Lara: In this show they do such a beautiful job of modeling consent, so it’s not like this conversation where it’s like, consent is important.Do you give consent sign on this line? But I think that as people who grew up in the nineties. Consent was not something we talked about. In fact, I feel like the way that I was taught to deal with relationships was to expect to have my feelings, not always taken into consideration to expect people to try to maybe, bulldoze over my consent and to try to figure out how to make sure.That I knew how to set boundaries and say no, and it was my job to know to say no loudly versus the conversations around consent that have come up since then where we talk about the fact that we have the right to say no to anything that is happening to our bodies. And I think that we need to talk about that more.And in the show. Ilya in particular is very good at consistently asking for consent. Like, is this okay? Do you want to do this? Do you like this? Right? they’re not like these heavy questions. It’s just these little check-ins to make sure that moving forward makes sense. And I think modeling that is not something I’ve seen very much.If we can model that and have everybody take that into consideration in life, it’s just gonna be better for people.[00:05:23] Rowan: I think a lot when we talk about consent of that picture from the end of World War ii, and we all know this picture where there is a soldier who’s leaning a woman over and kissing her, and a lot of stories were created around that photo. But my understanding, and I’ve yet to fact check this, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that they did not know each other.That he basically just grabbed her and kissed her, and a photo was taken and this became iconic. And for women especially, and those of us like me, a trans man who were socialized. As girls and women as we were growing up, this was sort of expected that if a man liked you, he would eventually just lean over and kiss you and touch you and yeah.It was your responsibility to tell him no. He would keep going. Until you tell him no. And you had to be very clear about that no. And I first of all, love this new model of asking people if they would like to be kissed. I really don’t like. When older people, and I say older people like me, I really don’t like when older people go, that’s not sexy.It can’t possibly be sexy. And so I applaud Heated Rivalry for having these very erotic, very sexy scenes where consent is a part of it because you are brought right into that scene. It is hot, it is heavy, and consent just in some way just makes it even hotter like It is fantastic how it’s done. I also like that it’s between two men.I like That consent is practiced between two men because a lot of times when we see stories about consent, whether it is asked for and received or not, it is. Around a straight couple. It’ll be a man and a woman, and the man is asking for consent or should be asking for consent, or the woman is pushing him away because he did not have consent.And so this was very cool to see this modeled. I really hope that it changes the conversation around it.[00:07:51] Lara: Yeah. And in the second sexual scene, there is a section where, again, Ilya asks for something Shane isn’t comfortable. Basically says, not this time, and the response is, okay, next time.Right? So it was a very good demonstration of asking. Getting an answer and accepting the answer and moving on. And again, that’s what we need to model. It’s okay to say no. That doesn’t mean everything is terrible, and now the moment is lost. It just means maybe whatever that thing was, we’re not gonna do it today.And I’m okay with that.[00:08:29] Rowan: Yeah, we’re not gonna do it today. Maybe we’re not gonna do whatever. Everybody likes different things.[00:08:33] Lara:[00:08:34] Rowan: It is such a. I wanna use the term wholesome because I think in that moment, even though these, again, these are sex scenes and they’re pretty graphic sex scenes.even in those moments, , there’s this pureness, this real sweetness around consent. Like, it’s like, I’m really into you. I really want you, but I really wanna check in and make sure you’re okay with it. And I don’t know, it just made me really happy as someone who grew up, in the eighties and the nineties, where this was just not a thing.we’re really seeing it now. I mean, obviously we knew things like rape were a thing. we absolutely knew that was wrong, although there were some blurred lines around that too.[00:09:17] Lara: Yeah.[00:09:17] Rowan: but. Seeing that, I don’t know. I just think the youth are okay. The youth are gonna be okay. Gives me a lot of hope for the future.[00:09:26] Lara: Yeah, and I think that something I did with my kids that I think I’m hoping will change some of the conversation and I remember, some of the feedback about something as small as this, which I’ll tell you what it is in a minute, was like, it’s not such a big deal. Why are you making it a big deal?But I think again, it’s. Knowing that you don’t have to accept something that doesn’t feel good to you. So for me, tickling was a big thing, right? So when I was little, there was the whole, somebody would tickle you till you were basically begging for mercy and hoped that begging for mercy would mean that they stopped.[00:10:00] Rowan: Yeah.[00:10:01] Lara: Which. Probably it would, but also maybe it wouldn’t because it was really funny to them. And so,ha ha ha. But to me, and I always said this to my kids. If you don’t want something, say, I do not consent. , You know, I’ve heard kids roughhousing in my house and been like, say I do not consent.And then,I’m just like reinforcing it all the time. I do not consent and, I’ll come in and back you up to the end of the world if you say, I do not want that. We’re done. There’s no ifs, ands, or, but even if you’re playing, even if you’re joking, even if whatever, if they say, I do not want that, we do not do it.And I just don’t think back to the tickling example. no, no, stop. Stop is definitely things people said. About being tickled, but you had to do this whole, like, I’m begging for mercy for you to stop. I don’t know if you experienced this as much, but it’s certainly something I had. and it would be like grandparents or like, itwasn’t just, anybody like, it was really just how I remember people being like, they will tickle you till you throw up, unless you beg them to stop.[00:11:14] Rowan: Yeah, , that did happen to me as well. It was very common. And the other thing that was common that we’re now changing the conversation around is things like, oh, go give your aunt a kiss. She wants a kiss. go. Give your grandpa a hug. He wants a hug. No, no go. You’re gonna make him sad.Go hug your grandpa. Like when you really think about that, what message is that sending that. Somebody else has more control over your body and what you do with it than you do like It sets a very dangerous precedent that this adult can have what they want from me because they want it. And so I was never like that with my children.I always said like, do you want to go give your cousin a hug? No. Okay. Do you wanna wave goodbye then? Alright. Okay. Let’s wave goodbye. There’s always that, when I meet little kids in my coffee shop, and, we share a moment like we, maybe I show them where the books are or like, I’m walking them around.We have a little fairy door in there and I show them the fairy whatever, you know, whatever it is. We have a nice little connection at the end. I say like, , it was really nice to meet you. Do you like to give high fives? Can I have a high five? You know, and ifthey shake their heads, no. I’m like, that’s okay.Thank you so much for coming in. Right. They need to learn. They have control over their own bodies. They can make that decision. It is really creepy to me when I think about. Making young people give hugs, making young people give or accept kisses, making young people sit on someone’s lap when they don’t want to.Right? there’s a lot of stuff that we have done that has perpetuated this anti consent model, and from a very young age it sends all the wrong messages. So yeah, it is really nice to see that. not only are we modeling consent in a lot of shows and movies now, but. The world is so anti LGBT, a lot of the world is right now.And where are we seeing these really healthy relationships? We’re watching it on Heated Rivalry. We’re watching these two people ask and receive and choosing not to give consent whenever they don’t feel comfortable. So not only are we seeing queer joy, we’re seeing healthy relationship models.[00:13:40] Lara: Yeah.And there’s one other section that I wanted to take note of, which is, there’s a part where, again, Ilya asks Shane have you ever done this? And Shane hadn’t. And Ilya says, you’re scared. And Shane gets very defensive, right? Like, I’m not scared. And he says, no, it’s okay. Right? And again. That’s part of a really good conversation just because somebody said something.Just because you’re scared, you know whether or not that means you’re not gonna do it. Whether or not it means you are gonna do it, whether or not it just means more of a conversation. It’s a conversation. It’s okay for you to feel how you feel. That’s not a problem. I hear you. I see you. Let’s figure out what comes next.Not, ugh.[00:14:28] Rowan: Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I was in those situations sometimes, right? chose not to give consent to take things further. And in those situations it was , with men, with boys at the time. Yeah. Like teenage boys, you know, ‘cause we were young. and they would take it so personally.Like, oh, what? What? Like, we just had such a nice day, like I was really into you, or whatever it might be. Right. And and we need to teach everyone, but especially our sons not to behave that way. I think that’s getting better too. But when you see Ilya just Really accept that it is all right, that Shane doesn’t want to do something and dig deeper about what his fears might be.It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful and especially contrasted with his very. Rough exterior. You know, hehe’s a little gruff. He’s very direct. trying to find the right words for it. But, you know, , he’s stoic. He doesn’t show a lot of emotion for a lot of the show.And so to see those gentler moments, I think models a healthy masculinity.[00:15:52] Lara: I agree. Which leads me to my next point around the actors. So Connor Storrie and Hudson Williams are the actors who play Ilya and Shane. And I think that, this is not about the show, but it is about the show that these two men are really good examples of healthy masculinity like they are.Comfortable being friends and still being affectionate with each other. They are just examples of men that are not what we’ve often seen, and I think that they’re emotionally open, they’re physically open, and teaching men, teaching people that that’s okay. Is another nice. Example, it’s another good modeling that is out there, and I have found that to be very interesting to watch.I know not everybody who watches the show, watches all the edits and the extra interviews and so on, but, I have, and it’s been amazing to watch. I really find it fascinating including that they are setting really strong boundaries. Based on their fame and saying this is what I’m okay with and this is what I’m not okay with and this is how I’m gonna deal with it.And they’re not being, aggressive in any way, but they are being themselves and not changing who they are and taking care of themselves.[00:17:20] Rowan: So to your first pointin case. You’ve never heard us before and do not know what I do for a living. I currently own a coffee shop and I’m there, all day, every day, most days. it’s in the heart of the gay village, the queer village here in Toronto. And so a lot of queer people come in and what I love, one of the things that I love.Is that when two men or male presenting people come in, I often can’t tell if they are a couple or if they’re friends because a lot of queer men and queer masculine people. Just show affection to each other without all those toxic masculinity behaviors where like, you can’t reach over and hold his hand.If he’s going through something, you can’t like rub his. Shoulder, his arm if he’s ha like there’s a warmth to the relationship and so it’s none of my business what the relationship is, but I just, sometimes they share with me how they know each other.Sometimes they’re friends. Sometimes they’re partners, they’re just, it’s various things, but it’s lovely. It’s lovely. And yeah, and seeing that , in the interviews between the two actors, I can guarantee I have not watched as many as you have, Lara. But, but it is really nice to see.and as for the boundary setting. Somebody gave me advice really early on when I was first, starting to appear in media when I was first writing a book. , you know, , , when a lot of eyes were on me and my family and they said, you are in control of your own story. You get to tell as much or as little of it as you’d like.That’s your story, your narrative, and I’ve held onto that the entire time. So sometimes people will come in, you know, to the shop or just run into me on the street or come to an event that I’m at or whatever, and they’ll say. I feel like I know you. I get that a lot actually. I feel like I know you is something that most people will say on this.I say like, it’s 75% of the people that meet me for the first time because I do share a lot of things about myself.[00:19:37] Rowan: But there are things I don’t share at all that are very private to me, that are private to my family, that are sacred that I hold onto. So they do know parts of me.That’s true. And who I am is very present in what I bring to the table. I would say I’m a pretty authentic person, but I love that more and more celebrities, people far more famous than I am. Like, I’m like maybe at best of micro celeb, right? Like people who have worldwide fame are doing so without.Giving away the parts of themselves that they don’t want to, for the sake of fame, for getting an article published that wouldn’t get published, that they didn’t reveal this about themselves or that about themselves. They’re just like, no, I’m not doing that. And they’re putting their job first. I’m an actor.You can know a little bit about me, but you’re not gonna know everything about me because. I need to have a private life. I need to have boundaries. So it goes back to the whole consent thing again, right? It’s all about those boundaries and about choosing what it is that you want to bring forward and what it is you want to keep to yourself, whether it is your body, information about yourself, whatever.So, again, I can’t imagine. Rocketing to fame at a young age, the way these two actors have? just from being not very well known, still working other jobs, you know, working actors, very much like working other things. and going from that to being two of the most famous people in the world.And I think they’re handling it at least from the outside very well.[00:21:19] Lara: Yeah, and I think. It used to be that the expectation was famous, people couldn’t have privacy. I know, Chappell Roan is a good example of somebody who was like, I am not okay with how some of the fans are behaving with me. And a lot of people were like, why are you so ungrateful?And I think. That it’s so important to understand. These are human beings. They do not need to give you anything. You are not entitled to anything. And I don’t think the folks listening to this podcast are probably thinking they are, but I just think, again, it’s another good reminder that people get to decide what they’re okay with.And. We accept what they decide even if we don’t always love it. You know Connor Storrie has pretty much taken off his social media presence. So unless it is some kind of a brand deal or an official announcement, he’s not doing it anymore. Do I wish he was still putting out what he was putting out before?Yeah, it would be fun to watch, but that’s not up to me. End of story.[00:22:25] Rowan: he has to preserve his wellbeing in all of this.[00:22:29] Lara: Yeah.[00:22:29] Rowan: we have seen what happens when celebrities get overwhelmed with the expectations that are placed upon them. and we’ve lost a lot of people, quite young who had a very difficult time handling that.And I don’t mean handling, Going to work as an actor or singing, or performing in some way. I mean, all of the other things. Having not a lick of privacy, having everything about your life tracked, having people obsessed with you. And I’ve always wondered why we do that, right? Because I can really deeply appreciate somebody’s, Work. Somebody’s talent, somebody’s music, somebody’s acting skills, and I can just leave it there. I’ve always been able to just leave it there and go, yeah, I really like that. but without naming anybody. We had a very famous person come into the shop recently,very, very, very famous, and we acted like we didn’t even know this person, and we just served them their food and they sat down and they did their thing for a little bit all by themselves, and every single other person in our shop left them alone too, by the way.And I think they had a really nice time because they came back the next day and did it again. And then they left. Right. And I will never disclose who that person was and I would never, even if they came in, ask them for a selfie or anything else. I love. That they chose this space to come in, and I love that they were able to feel safe for a little while and away from whatever it was that they were doing and leave.I think that’s amazing. Like, everyone deserves that. Celebrities get very, very, very little of it.[00:24:23] Lara: Yeah. It’s the whole parasocial relationship, which can mean that people feel entitled. It can also be things like, you know, oh, I’m worrying. I’m worrying about them. because like this is so much for them to take on.But then again, it’s not like I don’t know them. It is not my responsibility to go out there and try to protect them. Like,I think people take on these relationships that don’t exist and it starts to feel like a relationship that does exist and that’s dangerous, and that’s why. there are some very famous people, like you said, who are no longer with us.We’ve seen it with some of the boy bands, with people who’ve fallen into addiction and not made it right. Like , there has been a death in the last couple years. That was a really big one. and I think that part of that is not being able to handle the fame, not being able to handle the pressure, not being able to handle.people giving you drugs and the party culture and not being able to handle all of it until life just isn’t, like, just being rich and famous is not a great life. If all these other things are pressuring you and making you feel like crap and you’re, constantly being tempted by things like, it’s a lot.[00:25:35] Rowan: I had my own very small version of that where I got well known in my specific field for the specific work I do, and everyone wanted to talk to me and I had Hundreds of thousands of followers across social media platforms, and I was booked solid for engagements. I had a number one bestselling book, and I was like, okay, yeah, I made it.Look at me. I did it. Wow. And I felt so empty because everyone tells you that, that. Is what success should be.Society teaches you that if you get to this level of whatever it is, success, stardom, et cetera, it will somehow fix what’s inside of you.Right? But I wasn’t content enough in where I was with myself and so.You start to realize that in that space, everybody just wants something from you and you can’t trust anyone because some people are genuinely great and some people just want to use you. It is a very lonely place to be. So I think from my very limited standpoint on that, that we need to show some grace.To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Now, I say this and some people who make the trip in to Understory to say hi to me are gonna be like, oh, Rowan doesn’t wanna talk to me. No, no, no. I love that though.If I didn’t love that, I wouldn’t have a coffee shop where you can just come in and talk to me. Yeah, that’s totally different. and, sometimes people want a picture and that’s cool too. Look, I think that’s lovely , you know, but I’m talking about the people who. We’re in a TV show or a movie or something and never get a moment’s piece, They can’t go to the grocery store, they can’t go have dinner, they can’t go to the park with their dog or their kid. they just never get a moment. That’s different. I do think that just remembering the humanity in absolutely everyone. I say this all the time, I’m gonna say it until people are sick of it.Remembering the humanity in everyone is crucial.[00:28:04] Lara: Yeah, absolutely. All right. will do at least one more. So I’ve talked about, representation. In the first episode, we talked about the representation that I saw of like good humans, right? And we had a few examples with the parents and the allies. But the other one that I really thought, or the other ones that I thought were really.Good in this show is, and some of them are named and some of them are not named. So for example, Ilya is bisexual, and I think bisexual representation is important and we can dig further into that. Shane is autistic. This never comes up in the show, but if you’re watching and you think, wow, some of these quirks seem a bit.Spectrum. It has been confirmed by the author and Hudson played it that way. Jacob Tierney agreed with it, like it was absolutely a decision that they accepted and played into it. Shane is on the spectrum, and there’s also one of the actors who is trans. In the show. So these are, again, more representations I think are important.Like the more we see it, the more we see somebody who has some of these traits that we might’ve thought of as kind of quirky, but we normalize it. So the autism stuff, I think it’s good. I think talking about bisexuality, because there’s a lot of people who feel like bisexuality. Isn’t a thing, right? So either, if it’s a man who says they’re bisexual, they’re secretly actually gay, or if it’s a woman saying they’re bisexual, it’s actually just like a phase, right?Like people really like to pretend it’s not possible for somebody to be bisexual. And the more we talk about it and the more people are like, no, I’m bi, I think. that’s a good thing. So those were a few of the examples that I thought were really good to see there. Again,[00:30:07] Rowan: well representation.Hello, I’m bisexual. So there we go. , More of that for everyone. I loved that they didn’t discuss Ilya’s sexuality until a lot later in the show. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but it just came up in a conversation and he mentions it and that’s it. And then it just, , in relation to Shane’s sexuality and then it’s kind of done.[00:30:34] Lara: say it’s interesting because in the books, Ilya is in all of the books and there are times where he’ll meet somebody and they’re like, oh, I’m bisexual. He’s bisexual. Me too, right? it’s I’m so happy other people are talking about this. It’s a thing, right? Look at me.I am telling you I am bi. and it’s not like he’s super open about it, but it comes up and you can see. there’s almost like a,a feeling in it. Like, I don’t get to see this very much because people don’t talk about being bi. Yay. Good for you for saying it. Like, there’s that, that comes up in some of the other books.So I I know that’s not in the show, but it does come up in the books, which I think is good.[00:31:10] Rowan: Yeah, I love that. I love that one of the things that has frustrated me more recently is every pride season I see discourse on the internet about, you know, no straights at Pride, no straight couples at Pride. I’m like, first of all, everyone should be able to come to Pride also. You have straight couples, first of all, that are, say a trans man and a trans woman, what they shouldn’t be at Pride.Or you’ll have a seemingly straight couple walking down the street, but they’re both bisexual or one of them is bi , or pan and they just happen to be together. Just happens to be, a hetero relationship. I think. Bi-erasure is very painful to a lot of bisexual people. It is mocked.Even within the community, sometimes it is still seen, even within the community, sometimes as being less than, or someone who just hasn’t fully come out yet. Someone who is just, yeah, was just going through a phase, just having a little fun before they settle down in the burbs and have a bunch of kids and it’s ugly, right?It’s like when we already have so much hate lobbed at us. It doesn’t need to be coming from inside the house. So I’m glad that there was bi representation. I’m glad that they played it well. I’m glad to see that autism was represented. I think that’s really nice in the sense that it wasn’t a whole story arc that he’s autistic.It’s just. Part of who he is. And, Harrison Brown, who is the trans man, Harrison and I, go back a little bit. We did a talk together, a year or two ago , and that’s where I met him for the first time. But Harrison is fantastic and I just love that, he was just like another hockey player, like they just decided.we’re gonna put a trans dude as a hockey player. that’s amazing. and I actually know until I watched the show and I was like, Hey, I know this person. Oh, that’s so fun. Right. and those subtle inclusions where it’s. There just happens to be another guy in the locker room, right?Just another hockey player. Having these conversations, those subtle acts of inclusion are just as important as the more overt acts of inclusion. Those subtle acts of, I think just noticing that somebody is maybe behaving in a way that is more neurodivergent, but it’s not overtly spoken of.Just, I think, allows for more acceptance of, neurodivergent, I don’t wanna say behaviors, I think that might not be the right word, like things that happen, like maybe some of the, , extra overwhelm, whatever is going on. creates more acceptance of society in general and I just, I think it’s great.I think they did such a good job.[00:34:09] Lara: Yeah. one of the examples in the very first episode that you see a quirk is when Shane folds his clothes as he’s getting undressed. So he is getting undressed and he like folds his pants and puts them down and folds his shirt and puts it down instead of just like getting undressed.And the response from Ilya is to like. Grin and like, that’s a funny little quirk you’ve got, but not in a, like, what are you doing? Like, oh, that’s a funny thing that you’re doing. It’s cute and I love it. Like it’s the response That it feels like you get and yeah, it’s just, Being very much these are my safe foods. I don’t eat this, I do this. there’s some like rigidity, around food. And again, it’s just like a little bit in there. And I think having that representation in all three of those examples I gave you without it being overt is important. It’s just normal.[00:35:02] Rowan: yeah, it’s a spectrum too, right?[00:35:05] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:35:05] Rowan: Like, I have a child who, is autistic and I did the same test myself, that the psychologist gave my child and I scored, definitely way too low. To be autistic, but there were some things about me that were higher up.Food texture, being one of them. Food textures are so bad for me. Some of them like, don’t even get me started on mushrooms or, noise because of my synesthesia. so really noisy environments can be very exhausting for me. So things like that. And yeah, so it creates this acceptance for everybody.Who is a little neurodivergent? I just, I’m making lots of smiley faces right now because it just really became a show about inclusion in so many more ways than these two hockey rivals who to be into each other.[00:36:03] Lara: Yeah, for sure. I think there’s just one last one that I think we’ll cover because it kind of associates with that , it, it’s the validating of feelings, right?So we talked about that a little bit already, but there’s, you know, like a couple crash outs, right? so in the very last episode again I mean, we’ve talked about the fact that there are some spoilers as we’re talking, but in the very last episode, there’s a scene where Shane is crashing out.Like, oh my God, this is my nightmare. This is the scariest thing I’ve ever dealt with, and I. Apparently when that scene was being filmed, Hudson who plays Shane, played it in a way that Jacob Tierney, who was the director, was like, that’s a bit much like you seem to be going over the top with this, but I’m gonna let you like, get through it and whatnot.And then later when it was being edited, people were like, this is really good, right? this is how some people will crash out. Maybe not everybody would crash out in such a like. This is the end of the world kind of way. But some will. so number one, yeah, like that is a way some people react. So we’ve seen that, right?Like a big crash out. But then the response is like, yeah, this is scary. So there’s a line I love, because Shane says, I’m so scared and Ilya says. Yes, it’s scary, but you’re brave. And Shane says, shut up. First of all, the shut up was so relatable to me because if somebody told me I was brave, I would be like, shut up.Don’t try to make me feel better. Don’t tell me I’m brave. That is not helpful. But Ilya’s like, no, you’re brave. And just hugs him. And that is a way to just support somebody, validate them and help them regulate their emotions in a time when they’re not able to do it themselves. And it was just another good modeling.It’s not, the only time it happens, but it’s like, Hey, you’re freaking out. It’s okay. I’m here. You’re not alone. Feel my energy bringing you back down. We’re okay here, and I really loved to see that.[00:38:13] Rowan: This warms my Gen X heart, because a lot of us were basically just taught to stuff our feelings down.That we need to suck it up. how many times were you told to suck it up? Because I was told a ton.[00:38:26] Lara: Yeah. Suck it up. Or just it’s not a big deal. Right. It’s the whole, you’re okay. You’re okay. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. Like, you’re fine.Versus. You’re scared and that’s okay. And we can get through it and we will be all right. But not because I’m telling you, you shouldn’t be scared, but because I’m telling you it’s okay that you’re scared.[00:38:47] Rowan: Yeah. one is very much about like, don’t cry, don’t cry.don’t freak out, don’t do that. And the other is. Yes, of course you’re going to cry right now. Of course you’re freaking out right now. That’s understandable. And we’re gonna get through it. it’s the behavior, the support that we see between these two characters is really, I think I’ve used this term lovely like 50 times in this recording, but it is lovely, lovely is the right term.beautiful. it’s healing in a way to see, again, not only queer representation to that level, but queer representation that is healthy. It’s great.[00:39:31] Lara: Yeah, and you know, acknowledging the fact that it wasn’t always healthy. These folks had a, nine year situationship with a lot of miscommunication.But seeing some of that turn around, seeing some of these examples of how you can deal with things in a really great way, I think it was just, it was different, right? Like, I just think what I liked about this show is that it was real. Kinds of scenarios I’ve encountered. Maybe I wasn’t in exactly that encountered, but I’ve been scared.I’ve been angry when somebody tried to make me feel better. I’ve been, really grateful of somebody supporting me. Like, all of these things are true things that happen and people are complicated and people have feelings that they’re allowed to have. And all of that just being represented I think was really great.[00:40:20] Rowan: It was really great.[00:40:21] Lara: So we’ve mostly covered, there’s a couple more points that we haven’t covered. One of them is around hockey culture, which I don’t really feel like I have a lot to say anyway. But I do think it was good that it was covered. I think that if somebody else was gonna have a conversation to talk about that more in depth, it would be great.I just think that. That was one of them. But mostly we’ve covered my points and I think I could talk about this forever as everybody now gets, but I think it’s in that sphere of I love that we can have these conversations. It’s not just a Heated Rivalry. let’s pick it apart for the sake of. A fandom, but I think that there were some really good topics in there.So I hope people enjoyed this conversation. If there’s more people wanna talk about, let us know. I think, again, it’s not a podcast about Heated Rivalry, so we’re not gonna talk about it in every episode, but there is room to keep talking about stuff, and if anybody like the author or the director, or any of the actors wants to come on our show.Please let us know because you are invited.[00:41:29] Rowan: Yeah, and if you come to my coffee shop, I’ll just act like I don’t know you[00:41:33] Lara: unless you, say that you want to be acknowledged. So just make sure you say hi.[00:41:37] Rowan: yeah, give consent. If you give consent, we’ll take a selfie and I’ll tell you that I adore you and that Lara’s hopping in the car and driving here right now.Can you please hang out for five hours? But[00:41:48] Lara: yeah, I’ll be right there.[00:41:49] Rowan: yeah. It’s fine. It’s fine. truly this has been great and I am very much looking forward to our next episode, which will not be about Heated Rivalry, but I’m sure this is gonna come back up.[00:42:02] Lara: Yeah. Because there’s gonna be a season two.[00:42:05] Rowan: I have heard rumors that they might film parts of season two. Right around where I work,[00:42:13] Lara: and they might film some of season two in Ottawa.[00:42:17] Rowan: Ooh, okay.Mm-hmm.Okay. Well.I know someone who’s gonna be scouting out locations. It’s not me. I’m too busy serving coffee[00:42:27] Lara: maybe. I also don’t like to leave my house a ton, so it may just be that I still look at it online.But again, if anybody’s listening and you need a 50-year-old lady who is an ally as an extra, please feel free to reach out.[00:42:40] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. We’ll see you next time.[00:42:45] Lara: All right. Thank you, and please do come and give us your feedback on our substack. We wanna hear what you think. We’ll see you in two weeks. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

If you’ve read a lot of social media bios, you’re probably aware of how many labels we use to describe ourselves: “Ashley R. Millennial. Mom. Texan. Democrat. Introvert. Nurse. Crafter. Chronically ill.”Humans like to place everything in neat little boxes, and we often use labels to do so. It helps our brains sort out what is like us and what is different from us. It allows us to form bonds over similarities with others and (hopefully) approach differences with curiosity. Discovering and claiming labels for ourselves can feel like recognition, acceptance, and connection. But is using labels always good? Do we put too much emphasis on them? Can they sometimes keep us stuck once we’ve claimed one?Lara and Rowan dig deep into their thoughts on self-labelling and the nuances behind doing so. We’d love to know your thoughts on using them, too(And don’t worry: we’ll be back with more discussion on Heated Rivalry soon. Thanks for making it one of our most popular episodes to date!)Transcript[00:00:00] Rowan: The normalization happens, and the beginning of that is the recognition, the labeling, and the owning of that.Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Rowan.[00:00:33] Lara: And I’m Lara.[00:00:34] Rowan: And today on my one day off this week, we are gonna talk about something that has got us both thinking, and that is. The idea of labels, labeling ourselves, labeling others, and the pros and cons of that. Should we label ourselves? Should we place labels on things like.Sexuality or on identity or on gender, on, spirituality, on anything. There’s so many different ways that we label ourselves and sometimes we label others. Does it help? Does it hinder?[00:01:13] Lara: Yeah, there’s a lot to dig into and I think the conversation is, gonna be interesting because I think that.I’m of two minds and I think a lot of people are of two minds, and the reasons to be pro label have changed historically speaking, I think. and so yeah, let’s talk about it.[00:01:34] Rowan: I think owning a coffee shop, it’s been open for five weeks now. It has meant that I have met more people in the last five weeks than I have probably met in the last five years.And I don’t think I’m exaggerating here.[00:01:48] Lara: I believe it.[00:01:48] Rowan: We have, a hundred plus people coming through the door every single day, even on the quieter days, so I am meeting various people from various walks of life and I think if you were to ask a lot of people like, tell me about you.They would answer with some descriptors, which can be labels, right? if you were to ask me. Rowan, who are you? I would say things like, I am a 49-year-old, so I’m like a middle aged trans man. I am a dad. I am a coffee shop owner. I’m an author. I am both, indigenous and also a settler.I’m of mixed descent. and I could go down this list of things that would make me who I am, and then you have other people who would say. why do you need any of those labels? Like for example, if you’re trans, why do you say you’re trans? It’s funny ‘cause I don’t walk around telling everybody I’m trans.I don’t go, hi, I am a trans man. Right? Yeah. Like, I’m not,walking up to people, Hi sir. How are you today? Oh, I’m good., I’m a trans man named Rowan. that’s not what I’m doing, but. Being trans is part of who I am, and when it comes up in conversation, if it matters to some extent, I will mention it and the idea around that.It is a positive one. It raises awareness for trans people. it raises the visibility. it allows people to learn that they can interact and chat with a trans person without it being weird, without, othering us. You know, if you learn mid-conversation that I’m trans, maybe your ideas, perhaps some negative ones would.Wash away or be challenged at least because now you realize you’re talking to an actual live trans person. And guess what? I’m not this awful monster that the media sometimes makes us out to be. And on a personal level. Discovering I was trans and owning that and doing the things that I needed to do in my life and in my body to feel better about myself, to feel whole, to feel happy.That came from first identifying my transness. So I’m just using that specific example. but there are many examples like that. I wonder what you think about the label stuff, Lara. Like,if people were to ask you, so tell me about you. how would you tell them about yourself?[00:04:18] Lara: Yeah, I mean, and I have a lot. I’ve talked, you know, mom, wife, business owner, coach, neurodivergent, so that last one, neurodivergent is one. That I think a lot of people wonder why I would specifically mention, and for many of the reasons you just mentioned, I talk about it because I think when more people talk about it, the more normalized it gets and the less words like neurodivergent, autistic, ADHD, dyslexic, right?The less those words become something that people think, oh, I’m so sorry. About when you can show a side that isn’t that, so that’s where I think, one of the reasons people say don’t label things is because they think that if you’re going to label somebody that’s gonna put you in this like problem box, this oh no, this.Now, you know, are you trying to make people feel sorry for you? Or people are going to feel sorry for you, or people are gonna think you’re less than in some way. Right. I do think that. People think labels can do that. So if you put a label on somebody, teachers are going to not treat you the same, right?there’s all these different things that can happen from a label and therefore people say, don’t label. That’s just making things harder. The flip side is that a label can help you feel seen so if we’re worried that the label is gonna make somebody feel less than, that’s because society has made anybody with that label feel less than.And if we can change the narrative, if we can change what that means to people by owning it, talking about it, and seeing ourselves in a different light, then it can be a positive. So I. Really appreciated and I’ll just keep using the ADHD one, having that label. Because then when I learned what it meant to have ADHD and I recognized myself in it, I stopped feeling so much shame about some of the things I thought were just because I was lazy.I just thought it was because I, was not good at being a person. And when we think, okay, this is part of my brain’s makeup and there are ways to work with that, it. Just changed how I saw myself. And so labels can help you feel seen. They can help you find community. They can help you figure out how to make things better.If in an ideal world, we got to a place where we weren’t putting people into, buckets of. Less than. and it was just like we accept everybody for who they are, and we’re all gonna help everybody optimize their lives for who they are. Then maybe we don’t need labels, but that’s not the case. And so sometimes labels are just really comforting and I think it’s good to explore options like that.[00:07:05] Rowan: Yeah, I think there’s this idea that. A lot of people are adopting labels for attention.You see that a lot with the older crowd, and I put myself in the older crowd, category, but a lot of people my age, a lot of people older than me will say, oh, these young people, they just want every label under the sun.And you’ll look at somebody’s, bio on some social media site, and it’ll say. like even mine does this, right? It’s like, so and so author, human rights advocate, speaker, dad, coffee shop owner, like, trans, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, oh, you’re just trying to assign all these labels.But it’s interesting because first of all, labels. On the plus side are very much like you said, a positive when you’re trying to find yourself, because it helps those pieces fit together. I also think that we only challenge some labels, which is really interesting. I say, I’m a dad now. First of all, people will challenge that I’m a dad because I’m trans, but let’s just say that I wasn’t trans and I say I’m a dad.Nobody’s gonna challenge that I have kids. If I say I’m a coffee shop owner, I’m a small business owner, nobody’s gonna challenge that because you know,they don’t care. They’re like, oh, yeah. So that’s what you do. This is your family, so this is your family structure.You’re a father. Got it. Okay. , What do you do for a living? Oh, you do this? Okay, fine. Oh, why do you have to have pansexual in there? Why do you have to have trans in there? Why do you have to label yourself like that? Nobody cares about that, Rowan. Why do you have to do that? So it is interesting that only some labels tend to make people uncomfortable.[00:08:47] Lara: Yeah. I think whenever it gets to anything around gender, sexuality. Brains, right?[00:08:56] Rowan: Mm. Brains. Yeah.[00:08:58] Lara: Then it gets questioned. but when it comes to societally accepted roles, like worker, spouse, right? Then you’re like, yes, you are doing the thing that we want you to do. You are fitting into our norms.Excellent. Use that label.[00:09:16] Rowan: Exactly. You little worker, be you. Good job.[00:09:21] Lara: Yes. Good, good. Have Job. Be married, have children. Excellent. We love it.[00:09:27] Rowan: Pay taxes.[00:09:29] Lara: Exactly. But yeah, once we stray from the norm of what we want to be. So this is big quotes. so what society thinks we should be? So if we’re straying from anything other than the thing that we should be trying to funnel ourselves into this like ideal, then you shouldn’t want to loudly proclaim that as a good thing because now you’re like encouraging other people to not be the norm.Like we need, I mean we, this is the whole society does like us to be a certain way as a whole because it. Favors those at the top.[00:10:06] Rowan: Exactly. Yeah. The minute you say anything like, oh, I’m somebody who lives with a trauma disorder, people like, why are you bringing that up? why would you say that?First of all,I’m gonna say most people are not walking around going, hi, I have a trauma disorder or something that, hi, I am clinically depressed or something. You know, like people aren’t walking around like just introducing themselves this way. But you say that I’m somebody who lives with anxiety.I’m somebody who lives with depression or whatever. And it’ll either be like, wow, thanks for oversharing, or. It’ll be , you’re just making it out to be bigger than it is. You don’t have to stick a label on it. Everybody has a hard time sometimes,[00:10:46] Lara: but that’s the point. Everybody has a hard time sometimes doesn’t need to mean, so have a hard time.So life is hard. End of story. what if everybody has a hard time sometimes means let’s figure out how to make it less hard. Let’s figure out how to have you feel supported in the things that feel difficult in the way that works for you. And when we don’t talk about it, we don’t know that other people are struggling with the same thing.We think we are the only ones at home feeling terrible about something. So when we talk About it. When we have people who are willing to talk about it, when people use these labels, we suddenly think, oh, okay, maybe I’m not the only one. And I think the reason that you see so many people using labels right now is because people have started talking about things and then people are recognizing themselves in that.So, again, we’ll use the two that we’ve already talked about in terms of ADHD or neurodivergence, and transness.[00:11:51] Rowan: Yep.[00:11:51] Lara: Being trans, there’s a. Why are there so many people who are now saying, I’m trans, I’m neurodivergent. Because suddenly people have the language, they have the knowledge. They can see themselves in something.They can understand why something that has felt difficult and hard, their whole lives can actually be explained. And then they feel like that’s me. Life doesn’t feel so hard when I know that.[00:12:21] Rowan: Yeah, it goes back as well to what you were saying about community having a label and wearing that label, let’s just say online for an example, or just knowing and maybe going to a support group or going to whatever.What this does is it allows you to find other people who understand. And before we had words like neurodivergent, these were just like the quirky folk, you know? Mm-hmm.weirdos. And I’m using air quotes here ‘cause I don’t feel that way about anybody who’s neurodivergent, but. I know that there were some kids in my classes in elementary who were very likely on the spectrum, or who couldn’t sit still and couldn’t focus, and they were like the problem kids.And that label of being the weird one or being the problem, the problematic one, to me, those labels are far more harmful. Growing up with them than, having the label of ADHD or having the label of autistic, neurodivergent , in general and. I have met so many people in the last few years, and especially in the last five weeks, let me tell you, queerness and neurodivergence.there’s a whole Venn diagram there. and that’s actually been shown in studies. that’s not me making that up or just observing it, but I do observe it and there is something to it, but. I have met so many people who just can very comfortably say, oh, that’s my ADHD acting up again.Or,oh, this is my autistic special interest. Right? And everybody kinda chuckles and everybody knows what that is now. and it’s not a bad thing. So now somebody who has ADHD, they’re not bad. And how their brain works. Isn’t bad, it’s just the way their brain is and maybe they have some supports to help them through the day.But don’t we all, I wear glasses so I can see better. I have an astigmatism, you know, and also I’m old, so I need reading glasses now. Like we all have things that help. Through the day. and nobody cares about my glasses. And I would’ve been able to, well, that’s not true. Back in the eighties, if I wore glasses in school, it would’ve been a nightmare.but now people can wear glasses, right? So that’s what happens. The normalization happens, and the beginning of that is the recognition, the labeling, and the owning of that. So all of those are really positive. And there can be some negatives to labeling. One of the things that I have experienced myself is the way that labels can confine you.for example, and this is,well documented. I’ve written two books. My first one’s called Love Lives Here, A Story of Thriving in a Transgender family. That book is still read around the world. I still get royalties for it six years later. , it still does relatively well as a memoir, nonfiction.And also in that book, my child comes out as a trans girl. And that was because back in when they came out, I had to think about that for a minute. non-binary was not discussed like . There were people who were non-binary and maybe in like queer circles to an extent, non-binary, or maybe in some respects not always androgyny, like that kind of thing was talked about.But if you were just a person, especially a young person looking for information at the time to describe how you were feeling in your body. gender transness was very binary. you were either, I’m using air quotes again, born a boy, you know, assigned male at birth, but felt like a girl knew you were a girl inside or the other way around.and that was it. So my kid comes out and, was assigned male at birth and. Knew that they were not a boy, and that became much more apparent as puberty started to settle in. As puberty started to ramp up, they’re like, no, no, no, no, no. This is wrong. I know I’m not in this direction. So they, Looked it up, they, snuck onto the internet, did a bunch of research, and realized actually, I must be a trans girl ‘cause I know I’m not a boy. So they came out to us as a girl and then. really wanted us to tell that story. That’s a whole other thing I can get into about privacy and would we do it again and everything else.But we did, and it had positive ripples around the world. So, I mean, no regrets on any of our parts, truly. But then they were known as a, a girl and later on realized, oh. There’s something else. there’s the idea of gender that is not fixed, that is not a binary gender. so I still know I’m not a guy.I know that, but I don’t think I’m really a girl either. So everything stayed the same. Truly everything about them, they know some pronouns switched. They went to they them, but it took them a while to come out. Because at that point they’re like, I already. I already identified as a trans girl, and everybody knows me that way now.Like what do I do? and I think that what’s really nice, what I’m seeing in younger people today is that they have more options. So I know a lot of young trans people who have said, Hey, I think this is my gender. And later on they’re like, yeah, you know what? Actually I think I’m kind of more over here.And that’s totally cool. And there’s so much that can be done, to move through. And myself, I identified as non-binary first,I say I kind of like walked through the non-binary field to get over to man land and so I kind of did the opposite of my child, but by that point.We knew that non-binary was a thing that you could explore that, and that led me to where I am today. but I do think that labels can be very restrictive. sometimes they can make you feel like, well, I’ve established myself as this. I’ve said I’m this, but I don’t know if I’m, that now I don’t know what to do because I think I’m starting to feel like this.And it can be anything. It doesn’t have to be gender. It can also be sexuality, it can be religion, it can be all kinds of different things where we. we evolve as human beings and I don’t want anyone to take what I’m saying by the way, and go, see, that’s why you don’t let trans kids be trans because let me tell you, I really need to put a giant asterisk on that.I think it’s really important that I say this as somebody who has worked with families of trans people and is trans myself and has a trans kid that is way more harmful. Then letting your kid come out to you and figure out who they are. Nothing about transness, especially in young people, is rushed this idea that they just suddenly go on blockers and suddenly get hormones and suddenly get surgeries in libraries or schools or whatever they’re on about these days.None of that is true. It is a slow, careful, Informed process. It takes a long time, and I do not know. I’ve worked with many, many, many, many families over the years. I do not know a single family where the kid was like, I’m trans, and went all the way to, I’m now on hormones. I’m now, getting to the age where I’m older when I’m 18, 19 and I’m looking at surgery, I went, Nope, nevermind.I was wrong about the entire thing. That does happen. It is extremely rare, like I wanna put that in big, bold letters. It is extremely uncommon. Those examples are the same examples that are used over and over and over. What I will say is that sometimes a kid comes out and goes, I think I’d like these pronouns.No, wait. I’ve thought about it and I think I’d like these pronouns. I’m gonna try this name on. No wait. , I think I’m gonna try this name on. Okay. I think I’m gonna go on blockers. K blockers feel good, a couple years later. Okay. I think I’m ready for hormones. Okay.And you know what, now I think I’ve had enough changes in that direction. Sometimes that happens and I think I want to go off hormones now. I really like where I am, or I think I wanna lower dose, so I really wanna make that clear. That’s not what we’re talking about today, but because these things are so.unknown. They’re a big mystery to a lot of people that needed to be said. So we can go back to labels now, but that had to go in there.[00:21:08] Lara: Yeah. I think a couple of things. One is, a label, because you decide that’s your label, you don’t need to tattoo it on your body, right? Like it can be something that you’re trying on because self-discovery is not.Something that happens all of a sudden, you don’t suddenly figure out in one moment everything you didn’t know about yourself before. Like it is a process you’re going to need to see if something feels right for more than a minute, you’re going to need to. Explore things, and like you said, there are people who just want to transition partway.They just want to make their voice a little bit deeper, but not a lot deeper. They just wanna feel more comfortable in their own skin. And you can change your mind, you can learn more. You can. Just keep evolving and be who you are when you are. And I think, again, like this whole, like you’re not tattooing a label on yourself is to me, a really important thing to say because maybe something is gonna change.Maybe, let’s say the label is chronically ill, but then you get better. things can change. That doesn’t mean that the thing you said before was untrue, and it doesn’t mean that we can’t learn more. Certainly every year I learn more about myself. And the more I learn about myself, the more other things shift a little bit, right?The more I accept who I am, the more I find like the next layer starts to come out in a different way, and I feel like a different person. So some of the labels, some of the ways that I put myself out into the world have changed significantly. Right? And I mean, I think some of that can be true of anybody.By the time, you know, you get to be 50, 60, 70, there are different lifetimes within that lifetime. And I know that who I was at 17 and who I was at 25 and even who I was at 30, like I am unrecognizable from that person.[00:23:27] Rowan: Me too.[00:23:30] Lara: Yeah. Yes. But I think it’s important to acknowledge that like maybe not everybody changes as significantly, but a lot of people do. Right? Over the course of their life, they change, and for me, the more that I have spent time learning who I am. And trying to figure out who I want to be and then nurturing that part of me, the more different I have become.And I suppose some people could just spend their whole lives being essentially the same, but like, gosh, I have been so many versions of me and I am happy for that.[00:24:09] Rowan: I think people who, stay. As one version of themselves, , their entire life are fighting against change.[00:24:18] Lara: Maybe[00:24:19] Rowan: I think that we all change to some extent.I’m not just talking about physical change. ‘cause obviously that’s true, but I think our life experiences shape us. So sometimes though, people tell us a story very early on about who we’re supposed to be. Then we clinging to that story and push back against anything that might have us. Question that story.it’s not that some things can’t stay true your entire life. There are certainly some things about me, even me who, if you know me and Lara, you do know me,I have gone through so many things and I have changed in so many ways, but there are some things about me that are static, and that’s okay.I’m all right with that. But the majority of who I am. Just like the cells in my body. They say something like, every seven years you’re an entirely new body because your cells change. They die and new ones grow. I think that’s the same for every part of us, that there are things about us that just. have to change over time, but I know maybe I’m just speaking from my own experience and if somebody is no, truly, I am very comfortable with who I am and I have thought about this and I have never changed from the time I was 20 years old.All right, good on you. But I really do think that. from my own experience, I told myself very early on, this is who I’m supposed to be. ‘cause society’s told me this. I’m supposed to be a girl who grows into a woman who marries a boy, and we’re supposed to buy a little house and we’re supposed to have children, and that’s supposed to be the basis of my life.I did all those things, by the way, except the man I married turned out not to be a man, but I did buy a little house and I did have a bunch of children, and I turned out not to be a woman, but I did all those things and , I don’t regret them. I love my kids and I’m glad I did that stuff, but. I fought for so long to convince myself that is the life that would make me happy.And anything outside of that life in the city I was living in near the people that I had known my whole life in the home I, owned in, that safety. that was what was supposed to make me happy more than anything because I had it. I had the thing that people dream of having. That was only part of what I needed in my life and the other things I had to grow outta my comfort zone and go do other things.So, I don’t know. I do think we grow and change all throughout our lives, and maybe not as drastically as I did. Certainly most people do not grow and change, quite as much as I have in terms of, being virtually unrecognizable, in a lot of ways. but I think labels and stories that involve labels, the things the media tells us, the things our parents tell us, the things the church tells us, the things that society tells us and school tells us and work tells us.I think that can really keep us stuck.[00:27:33] Lara: Yeah. And I think some of us are more prone to change. Right. So for me, I. Was looking for change in a lot of parts of my life. I get bored. I don’t wanna do the same job forever. I don’t wanna stay in the same place forever. So I am looking for things to change in my life so that I can keep feeling good, so I can keep feeling excited about life, so I can keep wanting to do it.So that means that I’m probably a bit more prone than some others to look. For change, to look for what’s new, to try to figure out what’s next. Some people will not have that desire. Some people will have the desire to not change so much that they won’t look into different things. But ultimately, I think what our point here is, that knowing yourself and loving yourself and figuring out who you are is a good thing.And if a label helps you do that. That’s a good thing and I think that we need to not look outwardly at people and be like, you have that label. That’s what you are forever and I will be upset if you change again. Right. it’s about just knowing that the more people learn, the more people want to understand themselves, the more they may use a label for now or forever and like.You don’t need to hold them to that in some kind of like rigid way, but believe people when they tell you who they are,[00:28:59] Rowan: and also don’t push labels on people. As a general rule, there are some labels that I think, make sense, you know, certainly. But I like it when people tell me who they are, right? If they want to tell me.This is who I am. This is how I identify. And I don’t just mean gender, I just mean in any way. Then that’s it. And if they don’t wanna put labels on themselves, that’s fine. there are a lot of people, for example, in my community who are just using queer, which is an all encompassing term, that it’s an umbrella term for, any kind of variance in sexuality, like sexual orientation or gender.It’s lovely. and if people wanna just keep it at that fine. and that gives them the ability to move around and grow and change and try new things and see what works for them and maybe how they. Identify or who they’re attracted to now is different than a few years ago, and because they just use the term queer, they don’t have to explain that to anybody. in indigenous cultures, the term two-spirit is used sometimes, and that is the same kind of thing where you get this, blended term for sexual orientation for gender identity.And it’s actually a very lovely term and that again allows for somebody to say, I’m two-spirited. and that can mean all these different things and maybe they don’t need to go any further than that. So if somebody wants to be as specific or as unspecific, is it unspecific or nonspecific?[00:30:41] Lara: I don’t know.[00:30:43] Rowan: I don’t know either. This is what happens when you work 12 hour days, but like, if somebody wants to be as specific or as non-specific as they’d like, that’s up to them. And I don’t need to pressure them to narrow down exactly how they wanna label themselves. There are people who. are autistic who,have ADHD who never bring it up and who don’t really consider it a big part of their lives.I know trans people who have been, on hormones or whatever they’ve needed to do for so long, and , it just never comes up. It’s just not a big thing for them. It’s just this little part of who they are, right? so everybody’s different. And I think we just need to let people do that.But the point of this is to say, take the pressure off of yourself and take the pressure off of others and just let people be.[00:31:40] Lara: Absolutely. So labels use them or don’t use them, but stop. Getting people all worked up about them.[00:31:48] Rowan: Yeah. It doesn’t have to be a religion either way. Truly like you can just take a breath If you want to use them, use them.If somebody else doesn’t want to use them, then they don’t have to. If somebody wants to use 20 labels to describe themselves. No big deal. That’s okay. And they might change those 20 labels in five months. And that’s all right too. Like honestly, I just think that we have bigger problems in the world than making a really big deal out of how somebody chooses to describe their own life.It’s not necessary.[00:32:19] Lara: Yeah. And even if somebody has labels, you don’t need to know what they are. They don’t need to disclose them to you like. We are not required to tell everybody everything about ourselves. So don’t worry about it.[00:32:32] Rowan: Just don’t worry about it. I wish people could see your face when you said that and like your hand movement, you’re like, don’t worry about it.Like, chill dude. Feel like that turtle in Finding Nemo. Like it was really amazing.[00:32:44] Lara: Very, California.[00:32:49] Rowan: Well, I think that about covers labels. I’m gonna stick a label on this and call it done. Well, that was a really bad joke. Oh my God, Rowan,I need to go back to bed and have a nap, but I have to go buy pants. So let us know what you think about labels. Did we get something wrong? In your opinion, do you think there’s more to discuss here?drop us a note. Visit our substack. Leave us a review. And, we’ll see you next time. Thanks for joining us.[00:33:16] Lara: Thanks for being here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Heated Rivalry is a show that has taken over the world since it came out in November. This show, which was only planned as a Canadian release, took off in a way nobody could have imagined, and has many people (including Lara) fixated - some might even say obsessed.In this episode, we dig into some of the topics in the show that we think make the show compelling, but also that we think are really important for the world to be discussing. We talk about the romance genre, good role modelling, This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

If you’ve ever heard someone complain about how lazy this generation is, lament about how there’s no work ethic anymore, or question why people work hard enough to create the life they want, then you will relate hard to this week’s episode. It’s time for us to tackle the myth that hard work always equals success; not that putting in effort is a bad thing, but that much more can be required to make a dream come true. We know people who work harder than most folks just so they can keep a roof over their heads and their families fed—not to build a fortune. We also know that working tirelessly isn’t always required to achieve success.LinksMillenials are the first generation to earn less than their parentsHouse of ElRowan’s new coffee shop!Lara’s mail club!Transcript(Please note these are not edited carefully for accuracy)[00:00:00] Lara: for those people who feel so strongly that. If all the people whining about not having success just worked harder, they would be successful. What we’re saying is if, that’s how you feel, maybe a little reframe is in order, Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.[00:00:40] Rowan: And I’m Rowan[00:00:41] Lara: and we are here on the very first time we’re recording when Rowan has opened his coffee shop. Yay![00:00:50] Rowan: Yay! I actually right before I said, and I’m Rowan was yawning.[00:00:55] Lara: Yes. Yes. So the last time we recorded, we still, were saying we hope by the time you hear this, the coffee shop will be open, but now it is open.It’s been open for almost three weeks and I just wanna celebrate for Rowan because you’re loving it.[00:01:12] Rowan: I am absolutely loving it. Yeah. Dani and I are enamored with this new life that we’ve started. It is. Everything I dreamed of and more and I mean, we’re still in the honeymoon phase in a way because it’s brand new.People are still discovering it, still coming in and saying like, oh wow, it’s such a beautiful space. I love it here. I love your coffee, or whatever it might be, but also it has been. An absolute ride in other ways. We already had a pipe burst in the ceiling and we were there all night. Dani was there all night.Thank you Dani. And I was there all day. The next day while she slept, we’ve had, an electrician blow the lights in the front, and I’m not talking trip a breaker, I’m talking installing a carbon monoxide detector and blowing the lights. In a dining area full of people with a big pow and a big spark fest, then all of my, customers sitting in the dark, having a chuckle over this for an hour while it was fixed.I mean, there’s been a lot of things, right? Hauling out the garbage at nine o’clock at night because I forgot it was garbage night. I had to go back in my pajamas to do it. I mean, it’s just, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it’s also been wonderful, like 20 days. 20 days of doing the thing that I wanted to do my entire life.I’ve always wanted, since I was a teenager, to. Own a coffee shop, and I own a coffee shop now, and it is absolutely amazing. although this is my, literally my first day off in 20 days, and I’ve been working at least 12 hours straight every single day. So I’m tired, but I’m happy[00:02:56] Lara: I love it. I have seen a lot of online chatter.I’m sad I haven’t been able to go in yet because I live, you know, a little bit far away.[00:03:06] Rowan: A little bit, little[00:03:07] Lara: bit, a little bit.[00:03:08] Rowan: Only four hours. What’s wrong with you?[00:03:10] Lara: I know, I know. Which means I’m close enough to get there. Sooner than later, but I’m seeing so much chatter online about how much people love it already.And I’m just thrilled for you. So everybody who’s listening who’s in Toronto should go check out Under Story, which is at the address. Rowan will now say.[00:03:30] Rowan: It’s at 5 0 5 Church Street at, the corner of church in Wellesley. It’s the little spot right next to the pizza, pizza and it has a giant lit up understory sign, so you can’t miss it.[00:03:42] Lara: So go check it out. And if you can’t get there soon, because like me, you’re not near there, go check it out online because it’s awesome and I am very proud of both you and Dani, and thrilled for you.[00:03:53] Rowan: Thank you. Thank you. And I think that it got me thinking about this week’s topic, which I texted you about earlier and said, I think I really wanna dig into this because.I am working really hard right now, and I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever worked harder in my life and I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve raised children. I wrote two books. , You know, I’ve traveled to speak, I’ve done all these different kinds of things, book tours, and, , worked in a school and I, cleaned homes, and all of those things have been in their own ways, tiring.Now I am very tired because I am working these really, really long hours and there are very few breaks. But I have been thinking a lot about the privilege surrounding, and people are probably sick of me saying privilege on this podcast, but I’m gonna say it because it keeps coming up and it makes me mad that so, okay, sorry.I’ll recenter myself now. My brain’s a little tired. I’ve been thinking about the fact that Dani and I would not have been able to do this and open this shop if we had not had. Some stability. First. We had some savings we could pull from that really helped. We had the ability to write a good business plan and to pitch it well, because Dani and I are both presenters by trade.She from advertising me in the DEI human rights spaces. And so we were able to pitch this to the bank and the federal government and secure a loan for ourselves to make this happen. That is why we have the privilege of opening a coffee shop and supporting ourselves in this way, even if it means that we’re still working really long hours so we can afford to hire people.And I see online all of the time, people who go, well. If you just worked harder, if you just worked hard like I did, you could own a house. If you just worked hard enough, you could go to school like I did and get two degrees and then get a good job. If you just worked harder, you could, you know, say in the us, pay your medical bills.Like, it’s just, this idea that comes from privilege in my opinion. 99% of the time that if you just work hard enough, you can live your dream. Whatever that dream is, where you are financially stable, successful in some way, home ownership, business ownership, whatever it might be, and. You know, I’m doing it right now, and I’m telling you, that’s just not true.Not everybody can just work their way into their dream life. , You know, I’m not saying that hard work doesn’t pay off. I do think that hard work does pay off if I didn’t work this hard. I would not have a coffee shop right now. But at the same time, if I didn’t have the means in the first place to secure the financing, I also wouldn’t have a coffee shop.And there’s no way to work hard enough for that to happen for some people. So I just, I really wanna swear at these people sometimes, and I don’t swear at them, but I really wanna swear at them. It makes me really, really mad.[00:07:00] Lara: Yeah. A lot of this I think, is. The American Dream, we’re Canadian. But the American dream is, I think something that the whole world has seen most of their lives as if you work hard, you can make your dreams come true.And certainly, some people have worked hard and made their dreams come true. I also think it used to be easier. In some ways for that to happen. We don’t need to dig into that too much, but I do think it used to be easier. And now we are applying the same, quote unquote rules of if you work really hard, you can change your life.When the world is no longer set up to do that. We have come into an age where. It is very difficult to get ahead. I believe this is the first generation that isn’t making more than their parents. maybe millennials, I’m not sure. But I know that like it always used to be that kids made more than their parents and we, it’s like we hit a cap like now with inflation, how much everything costs.It’s no longer simply a matter of if you’re responsible with your income, you’re gonna have enough to have savings to do all the big, magical things that will make sure that your life is good. it’s just no longer true.[00:08:18] Rowan: We still think we’re living in 1955, where, you know, you would see these iconic pictures, either stills or movies or whatever.And you had these families with, a nice car, maybe two, a house, two kids, you know, and then they also maybe had a cottage. Now, if you have a cottage, it’s probably been passed down in your family. Very few people. Are just buying a cottage these days. and if they’re buying a cottage, they often don’t own property outside of that cottage, so maybe renting in the city or something, like, it’s a very different time.You know, you have people who are working way harder than me. They’re working two, three jobs and they’re still barely making it because rent is so expensive. their mortgage has increased, or, you know, food is astronomical, and I don’t need to say all that. But , the other thing is I watch a really interesting finance expert, which I’ll make sure we put in the show notes called House of El.And she does like banking, but she also, studies analytics essentially. She’s, really quite something. I believe she was saying the other day and I, I could be slightly off with these numbers, but I don’t think I’m far off. If I am slightly off that stocks are doing really well in the us things are doing well, so why are people struggling so hard?And it’s something like the top 10% of earners in the US. Are doing 50% of the purchasing right now, and the other 90% are doing the other 50%. So that’s why even though it looks like the economy is good and you see it on paper, it looks good. It actually isn’t for the average person. So for somebody. I’m imagining when people say this type of thing to each other online, you’ve got somebody in the top 70, 80, 90% who has the home, who has a stable job, who has insurance, who has all these things.Talking down to people who don’t have those things as if they can get there. If they just put in the elbow grease, I can’t stand it.[00:10:33] Lara: Because they want to feel like they made this happen. There was no luck or privilege involved. They really wanna believe that they were fully responsible for their success.And I mean, I understand where that feeling would come from, but we need to acknowledge that not everybody comes from the same place. Like I do know some people who definitely in our age do have two homes like not everybody. Is in a situation where they can’t do that anymore. I think it’s just a little harder to go from poor to not poor.I think it’s harder to just see the path forward. That’s not to say it never happens, but hard work alone won’t get you from having nothing to having everything, and therefore people acting judgy. About people not having is just, it’s not, it’s not fair. It’s not fair. Like you’re not, acknowledging the truth because if the stock market is doing well and you have no investments, that is not helpful.[00:11:41] Rowan: Right, exactly. If you have investments, great. You can sell some of your stock, buy a new car, go on vacation, whatever you want. Or you just sort of are holding this stock portfolio with all these imaginary dollars in it going, if I were to sell today, I would be worth a lot of money.But I also think there’s something else that’s happening, and I think it’s that deep down. People who are doing well are deeply terrified of not doing well. I think a lot of us have that survival inside of us, right? You do have some people who are like, I will always do well no matter what, because I am, so good at business and I’ve got myself set up really well.And that may be the case for some people. And for some people they may be telling themselves that too, and that’s not the case. But I digress. I do think that there are some people who look at those who are struggling. Subconsciously don’t ever wanna admit to themselves. That could be me. I’m a couple of paychecks away from that.Or I am a stock market crash away from that. Or I am one job cut away from that. You know, , and so it’s so much easier to make up a story. That if I just work hard enough, everything will be okay because so far that has been true. That has been true for you. You did work hard.Maybe you did work yourself up from nothing. Maybe you had nothing before and you have something now and you think that’s it. I’ve arrived and if I just keep doing this thing, nobody could ever touch me like. Friends. That is not how it works. I have by all measures right now, a very successful coffee shop.I really do. The numbers are good. Things are good. People are showing up, most importantly to me. The community loves it, and that just brings me so much joy. I’m very happy at my job and I’m happy seeing these other people happy. That is the most important metric to me. But just going back to numbers, because that is sort of what we’re talking about right now.If a whole bunch of people were to lose their jobs. Then they’re not coming to my coffee shop anymore, which means I’m not making money anymore, which means I might have to close. I’m very aware of this. Does it keep me up at night? No, because I can’t control that. All I can do is control what is happening in my day-to-day life to an extent, and that’s it, right?So I don’t worry about all those what ifs. I don’t have the time, and it would serve me no purpose, but. I am not going to sit here and go see everyone, see kids. I just had to work hard enough. I had to work hard enough and that’s how I got here. No, no. I did work really hard and I got here and we talked about some of the things that helped that, right?Some investments I made some investments my partner made and the things that allowed us to do that, but I am really. A few months away from losing everything. Just like a lot of people. And I’m not going to sit here and look down at others just because I’m in a good place right now.That would be extremely egotistical and extremely unrealistic.[00:14:39] Lara: Yeah. so I guess I think what the point is we’re trying to make is for those people who feel so strongly that. If all the people whining about not having success just worked harder, they would be successful. What we’re saying is if, that’s how you feel, maybe a little reframe is in order, right?A little bit of it’s not as simple as that. It just isn’t. It just isn’t. And to think that younger generations just don’t work hard and that’s why they don’t have the things that you did by their age. Is simply not true. And again, if that’s how you’re feeling, spend a little time asking yourself. Is that true?[00:15:23] Rowan: I think it just comes down to, empathy and empathy really just is trying to understand what somebody else is going through. Not just seeing it through your own lens, right? So it’s really about looking at someone else’s situation and recognizing they’re their own person with their own set of circumstances, who grew up in their own family, in their own, say, place in the world, whatever it might be.And I think most of us are really trying our best, like just up the road from the coffee shop, there’s a park, and that park is well known, for , drug selling, drug use. And as a result we get. A lot of people who walk by and occasionally come in who are struggling with substance use disorders, crack crystal, meth, et cetera, andthere’s no part of me. And I see it sometimes, and I hear people talk about drug users and I’m, not talking about drug users like, you know, people who smoke pot. I’m talking about people are using hard drugs like that. And where there is an addiction issue, I see and hear a lot of judgment around that.But all of these people are people who have struggled deeply, A lot of them are dealing with mental health issues. They did not have access to help for, did not have the means to get that help. The resources were not there. they can’t afford their medications or they’re not being monitored because there aren’t enough doctors, et cetera, et cetera.And or they’re dealing with significant trauma, but they’ve never had the means, the support for that. Or they’re dealing with housing insecurity or they’re dealing with food insecurity. They have no one to support them. They don’t have families necessarily who care for them. I mean, these are human beings.They didn’t just suddenly become people who are using drugs every day. And, they’re people who. Were children who grew up, who went to school, who had families, who had lives, who had friends, and something happened along the way where it became a part of their story that they are now very addicted to substances.I’m sure that was never the intent, it’s just what happened. And They have many more rungs on the ladder to climb. And frankly, for the, most part, always did have many more rungs on the ladder to climb, to make it up to where a lot of us are today. I was down there for a while.I went to rehab at 14. I lived in shelters when I was a teenager. I was on social assistance. you know, I lived that life and I knew a lot of people like that. I made it out of that life. And I will never forget the people that I met who never did make it out of that life. And I think that’s why when I hear someone say, people just need to work harder, I think that’s the same type of person who will often judge people who are in a more challenging situation.And. I really wish that we all could just put ourselves in somebody else’s shoes for, just a little while and learn like, I think libraries sometimes they have those,human book nights, if you will, right where you can almost like borrow a human and sit down with them and they tell you all about themselves and you learn something.Gosh, I wish that was almost mandatory for some people so they could see that not everyone lives the same life they do and not everyone has the same access to what they have.[00:18:57] Lara: Yeah. All of this is making me think about something that I talk about a lot, which is that we’re all different, right?, We’re not all starting from the same baseline, and I think people forget that. So when we talk about privilege, it could be. Financial privilege could be all kinds of things, right? Like you came from more money, you came from a more educated background that then therefore puts you into a more education.There’s all kinds of things that can be privileged. And as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the other privileges, like being someone who has a non-addictive body. So I was thinking just this past week So one of my kids had all four wisdom teeth out. They had a lot of pain. They were prescribed, I don’t know, hydrocodone, something like that, which is one of those things where they’re like, watch out, you can get addicted to it.And they took it and it did nothing. And I said, oh honey, you’re just like me. It does nothing. Right. I have had a lot of pain in my life and they prescribe what I like. When I first was prescribed, essentially hydrocodone, any, some kind of, you know, narcotics for pain, I was really angry ‘cause I thought the doctor just gave me something weak because nothing happened and Advil worked better.And so my kid had the same thing happen. So I said to them. Well, the one bright side is we’re never gonna get addicted to this stuff.[00:20:26] Rowan: Right, exactly.[00:20:28] Lara: Because whatever it is that people, you know, gives them that really great high and that they love, like, doesn’t happen. So that’s not gonna happen to me.there are a lot of people who have the privilege of a body that works really well that is. Comfortable and wants to do exercise. So for everybody who thinks like, oh, if everybody just like did what I do, they would also feel great. And I’d be like, no buddy. We’re not starting from the same place you are assuming that if I just got myself together and did what you do, you know, you’d see, you’d see, you’d feel better.And I am promising you guys that it is. At least 100 times harder for me to do that thing that they’re doing than it is for them. That’s not to say I can never do it, but like let’s acknowledge that it’s a hundred times harder.[00:21:21] Rowan: Yeah. You know, I think, you know, like I’ve, been complaining a lot on this podcast, but along the lines of what you just talked about, I’d, I’d like to offer a solution.I think that rather than, say if everybody just worked harder, they could get to where I am. I think that’s often said out of frustration too, because somebody’s looking at other people, they’re like, oh, they’re just getting handouts. They’re just getting handouts because you know, they don’t wanna work.I have this great idea. What if those of us who have been successful, who are successful in whatever metric you want to use for that, what if we mentored those, who are looking at. Their own success, their own path to success. A lot of people do mentor, but I am really talking about, you know, there’s the Boys and Girls Club, for example.That is a great way to get involved and help kids who you know, have big dreams and wanna do something with their lives. Right? And if you’re doing it, gosh, you could be such a good. Person to help them with that. But like there are smaller ways too. Like I’ve actually sat down probably three times now since I opened the coffee shop with patrons who are.wanting to write their own memoirs or they’re in the process of writing a memoir or they’re thinking about writing a memoir. Well, I’ve written two memoirs and both of them got on bestseller lists, so I guess I, it’s probably safe to say that I know a thing or two about writing memoir, and I have this ability now to support other people in that dream and maybe.They don’t have access to somebody other than me right now who could teach them. And I, I’ve been thinking about hosting a memoir writing seminar. Where, you know, people could just come in, buy a coffee, buy a glass of wine, whatever, and we could sit and chat about what it looks like to write a memoir, to plan one out, et cetera, et cetera.Because even last night we hosted our first writer’s group. So they come in every Tuesday now and they. Stay until close. I stay open late and they stay for about three hours and they write and they take breaks and they chat and then they write some more. And I introduced myself to the group and some of them knew me and a lot of them did not know me.And I explained, you know, my writing background and I said, what means a lot to me is that I once, when I was first starting out. Went into coffee shops and wrote my first book. I wrote my first piece for The Globe and Mail. I wrote all these different things in coffee shops, and now I own a coffee shop where other people are coming to write, and I said, no matter what.You are writing. I’m so excited about this. And who knows? Maybe the next person who gets published is sitting right here tonight writing that story in my coffee shop. That means the world to me. Right? So it’s like that is a way that I can support other people who are up and coming. So I just think there’s all these ways that we can get involved rather than just complain or pass judgment.[00:24:34] Lara: Yeah. And I think some of the people listening are gonna be like, yeah, well, I. don’t think that, I haven’t been thinking that, right. I’m not trying to tell everybody to just work harder. either way, it’s a good reminder that there are ways that we can help that don’t have to be huge, right? We don’t have to be able to donate thousands of dollars to make a difference.We can donate a bit of our time, we can donate our time one-on-one without taking on a long-term volunteer role. Like there are so many things that we can do. And so the flip side of the. statement, if you work hard, you’ll find success is that it takes hard work to find success.And I think that talking a little bit about that is worthwhile too, because hard work is good. Like, I’m not saying never work hard, folks, like that’s not what I’m saying, but I am saying that sometimes we work harder than we need to to try to find success. Then we don’t give ourselves room to find the easier ways that things could happen.And if you’re go, go, go, push, push, push, push, push, push. I need to do more. I need to do more. The only way that this will work is if I do more. And then you get exhausted. You crash out. You burn out. That’s not better than looking for, are there things I could do here that are easier? Are there things that I could do here that.Will save me time so I don’t have to work as much. And when you ask yourself those questions, you can often find ways to simplify things. But if you think working hard is what is required, you’re not gonna look for those opportunities.[00:26:08] Rowan: Yeah, and influencers are not helping that right now. They’re, I’ve been watching a lot of people like these reaction videos on YouTube to the influencers.They tend to mostly be men who are like, I get up at 4:40 AM and I, go for a run and then I meditate, and then I answer my emails, and then I have a shower, and then I eat this. Super complicated breakfast, and then he gets to work at like 7:30 AM and he works until 7:00 PM and I’m just like, bro, this is not realistic.It’s not sustainable. It’s not sustainable for anybody. And. You’re teaching all of these young people that this is the only way to be successful and that frankly the only metric for success is to have this life that is very financially. fruitful. Right. because he’ll get into his nice car after he leaves this beautiful condo and he has this like, gorgeous model girlfriend who is probably an actor, but Okay.Like, is part of this whole thing that he’s trying to sell. it’s sad because I think that what then we learn is that. If we find an easier way to do something, a little hack that makes something easier for us to be successful, we somehow think it’s wrong and that it’s like dirty, dirty, bad for us to actually use it.and then the only people paying the price for that are us and maybe our loved ones who see us less. Right. It’s unfortunate.[00:27:42] Lara: Yeah. The pictures people paint are unrealistic. It made me think as you were talking, Gilmore Girls was one of my favorite shows ever. Loved Gilmore Girls. And one of the funny things that would often happen when we were watching, in the earlier years, there’s this period where Rory, who is the daughter, goes to a private school that’s like an hour away.You know, it was an early start ish school and every morning they seem to have gone and done something and then gone for breakfast and then she catch the bus and she take an hour to school and then it’s 8:00 AM and I’m like, what time are they waking up 3:00 AM like, this is not, the timeline is flawed.[00:28:25] Rowan: It’s true.[00:28:26] Lara: and that’s some of the stuff, right? We see people talk about everything. I’ve heard other people say that, oh, I did a morning routine. ‘cause people say You should have a morning routine. And if I did my morning routine every morning, it would take two and a half hours. I don’t have two and a half hours.they’re making it sound like if I just took 15 minutes this morning routine, which is the things they say you should do, it would take two and a half hours. We don’t have that. And so when people present. Things as realistic when they’re not realistic. That just reinforces the fact that we think we’re failing at something, that we’re not working hard enough, that we should be working harder.Why aren’t we pushing through the difficult? Because other people can do it when really, like I said, the pictures they’re painting are incorrect. They’re not. Giving us something that can be successful. So when you stop and you look at it and you think, what is realistic? What will work for me? What is actually a worthwhile use of my time right now?Then you can start to find ways. That are not going to, you know, make you feel terrible all the time because you’re not living up to any expectations that you’ve set for yourself. Because they were unrealistic to begin with.[00:29:36] Rowan: Exactly. Oh, life is all about balance. It’s all about balance. And. Really, I think of the older I get, the more I realize I’ve been hard on myself, for most of my life.Setting these really unrealistic standards, holding myself to them, and then often trying to hold other people to them. So I also think that sometimes when somebody is feeling like if other people just worked as hard as I work, then they will be successful.They might not be super happy where they are either, you know? Like we’ve been told that if we have certain things, if we achieve certain goals, then that will make us happy. And I don’t know why we all bought into it, but a lot of us did.[00:30:30] Lara: Brainwashing[00:30:32] Rowan: brainwashing marketing. it’s a beautiful thing.and it’s sad how many people I’ve met who are very financially successful and really unhappy because, see, they’re unhappy by the way that they treat other people. I’ve had. 99.99999%. Wonderful interactions with my customers. Truly so kind. So many people, many more people than I expected.One person walked in, you know, suit, tie, lots of money. At least wanted to present. Like they had a lot of money. I don’t know. I don’t know their bank account. And was really rude and he was like talking down to me, you know, like I was the lowly person making his coffee and I am not an insecure person these days, so I had.No desire to prove him wrong. I don’t care. He doesn’t need to know I’m the owner. He doesn’t need to know what I’ve done in the past. I don’t need to put him in his place, so to speak, or whatever. , It doesn’t matter to me. but all I could think about is I actually just felt sorry for him.Because if he’s treating me this way and I, you know, I’m about his age and I’m not like some young kid who’s making minimum wage at a coffee shop , like if he’s treating me like that. He’s probably treating everybody who he does not consider his equal like that or worse.And that to me just screams misery. It screams like I got here. Look at me. I did it. I’m better than you see because I’m here and you’re not here. I’m here and you are there. And if you just worked hard like me, you could have this perfect thing that I have. And no bro, you’re not happy. You’re not happy because if you were happy, you wouldn’t be treating people like that.So I actually just feel sorry for people now who, think that because I think that they’ve boxed themselves into a belief system that isn’t even working for them, that they are still trying to convince themselves and everyone else around them that it is the best thing ever.Yeah.[00:32:38] Lara: Freeing ourselves from that, whether it be freeing ourselves from the idea that we did it all right and other people suck, or freeing ourselves up from the fact that we suck ‘cause we didn’t get it all. Whatever it is, that’s what this podcast is all about, right? We wanna just keep looking at the way society has told us what’s true.And say, but is it? And I think this is a good one to remember is it doesn’t have to be one way. We all do things differently and we can all get places differently. So just remember that.[00:33:13] Rowan: Yeah. And I, don’t want. To have these conversations and have somebody who’s trying to make a dream happen, think, well, you know what, Rowan’s, right?I’ll never be able to because of X, Y, Z. I certainly have had some privilege in my life, but I have also had a lot of hardship. That hardship is well documented. I mentioned it occasionally. I’ve got a couple books about some of it, and there’s a lot of it I’ve never even talked about, but believe me, it was really tough.And I got here. So I’m also a believer that we can achieve our dreams. It’s just some of us have to take a different route and some of us have to realign our expectations a little bit. , and that’s okay too. But I don’t want you to give up. On what it is you’re trying to achieve, like That is not what I’m saying.Like I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just not saying that it is necessarily as easy as a lot of people want you to believe. It’s because. That’s unfair. It’s unfair. I don’t wanna sit here and go just because I did the thing I always wanted to do, then it, should be super easy for you to do.It wasn’t even easy for me to do. Right. And I’m almost 50. I wanted to do this back. I tried to open a coffee shop when I was 18 years old. And I wasn’t able to do it right, but I had to work a lot longer to get there. And I did get there, but I just think that there’s this gray area in between.Everybody can do everything. They just have to work hard enough and, nobody can do anything because they don’t have enough privilege. Like there’s certainly this in-between space, but let’s just show ourselves and each other some grace and help each other get. Where they wanna be, because that’s a really great feeling too, when you can help somebody else get a step closer to their goals.That’s wonderful. And , that’s just part of the human experience.[00:35:15] Lara: Yeah, a lot is possible. Keep dreaming your dreams, keep working towards them. And then remember all the other things we said today too.[00:35:24] Rowan: Be kind to yourselves and be kind to each other. I think that’s it. And with that, I actually have to go back to work now.So this has been really fun. I have to go help Dani close the shop because we’re going to a concert tonight, so that’s fun too.[00:35:39] Lara: Yes, well have fun at your concert and everybody else. We’ll see you in two weeks.[00:35:43] Rowan: Take care everybody. Thanks for joining us. And don’t forget to like, and don’t forget to subscribe.I think that’s a YouTube thing, but also you could do it on our substack.[00:35:53] Lara: You sure can. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Times are tough and things can feel really bleak. In this episode we dig into how we’re feeling and how we can move forward and look for joy, even when we know so much bad is happening.And some bonus joy - Rowan’s coffee shop is officially open! If you’re in the Toronto area, make sure to check it out. They’re at 505 Church Street.https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1Dp3tDHYmk/LinksRowan’s new coffee shop!Lara’s mail club!Transcript[00:00:00] Lara: I am here for the fight, but I’m here to remember what I’m fighting for, and that means whenever I can, letting some of that in to remind me what it feels like and why it’s so important and why everybody deserves it. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Rowan.And I’m Lara.[00:00:39] Rowan: And if I sound a little tired today. It’s because I am, not only because I am opening up a coffee shop and at the time of recording am in the final stretch, like we are in the last few days of absolute chaos, as we get everything together to do this, my partner, Dani and I and our, team of contractors and designers and everybody else involved.But, in case you haven’t noticed, the world is pretty terrifying right now. There is a lot going on again at the time of recording, and I don’t think it’s really going to matter when you listen to this. At the time of recording, it’s mid-January and some really bad stuff just went down and is still going down in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and Iran is in the midst of a revolution and there are still wars, other wars going on in the world, other things going on in the world.And. A lot of us, I think, are feeling exhausted just from that. I don’t wanna say just, but what I mean by that is on top of all the other life stuff going on, work, family, illnesses, you know, job losses, like anything else, mental health stuff, whatever else is going on in somebody’s world. on top of that is this heavy layer of worry.And I think just anxiety. I don’t know. Lara, what do you think?[00:02:17] Lara: Yeah, it’s so heavy. There’s anxiety, there’s worry, there’s honestly a bit of despair.[00:02:24] Rowan: Hmm.[00:02:25] Lara: That. This is what the world looks like right now. And it, can be all consuming, but it can also be something that makes it hard to feel the good stuff, right?Like this is one of the reasons we wanted to have this conversation is when everything is this heavy. How do you still let in the joy? How do you still feel like it’s okay to be happy and to do things that feel good when so many things are terrible? And It is a tricky thing to navigate, but I think it’s also an important conversation to have because if we all fall into the depths of despair and can’t.Operate anymore. That’s not gonna be better either.[00:03:10] Rowan: Right? It makes me think of something that I read by Dr. Brene Brown, who I think most people know who she is, but if you don’t, she is a shame and resilience researcher. She’s, share some pretty good stuff and, picks a lot of brains , on these things.She studies what it takes to be resilient. She studies how shame is the opposite of resilience. How shame really depreciates humans and stops learning and stops us from feeling worthwhile and strong. But one of the things that she said at one point, and I’m not quoting directly here ‘cause I don’t have any of her books at the ready, but she said that.We all try to numb ourselves against the bad feelings. So, maybe if I am thinking of how scary the world is, well I don’t want to be scared, so I’ll distract myself. I’ll numb myself. Maybe I’m numbing myself with things that a lot of us use to numb our ourselves tv. Like any kind of technology, playing video games.Maybe I’m eating too much, or I’m drinking a little too much, or I’m doing drugs, or whatever it might be. Say that I, might be doing to numb the pain. That also numbs my ability to feel things like happiness and joy. So everything becomes dull when you put the armor on as she puts it to shield yourself from what feels bad.You also shield yourself from what feels good. And I will say that I think that’s true for me right now because I think there’s two things going on in my mind. One is for sure. As a trans person living an hour away from the US border who works in human rights and sees all the atrocities that are happening and have been happening for a while to my community and to other marginalized communities, but definitely it’s increased.In loudness and intensity lately, I have had to turn some of those feelings off as much as I can. Right? Like I am not letting myself, I think, get quite as afraid as I could. And I’m using whatever I can, like I’m not drinking too much or doing too many drugs or whatever. But, what I’m saying is like I’m definitely doing things to distract myself and not pay as much attention.But also I’m not getting as excited about opening a business, for example, as I would be normally. It’s like there’s a part of me that goes, I think I should be happier about this. I think I should be more excited about this. Like, I know that I should be more of this. And I wouldn’t say it’s depression or anything like that.I don’t think that’s what’s going on. But. I do think it’s that numbing. So I think that’s one thing. And the other piece is psychologically it is much harder for me to want to get excited about something going on in my life that would bring me a lot of joy, knowing there’s so much fear and desperation and despair going on in the world.It’s like, what right do I have? To be happy when everything seems to be falling apart. Do you know what I mean?[00:06:30] Lara: I have whole bunch of thoughts, so, I’ll try to hit a couple of them.[00:06:35] Rowan: I’ll strap in.[00:06:36] Lara: Yeah. One of them is that, and I’ve seen this with myself, I’ve seen it with lots of people when things feel really hard.But you know other people have it even harder. It can be really difficult to acknowledge your own hard, you’re like, who am I to think this thing is hard when over here people are dying , over here People are starving and yeah, I mean, it’s true that that’s a harder, hard. But it doesn’t take away from what’s still hard for you.And if you don’t let yourself believe it’s hard and you try to ignore it, and you try to pretend it’s not going on, and you try to just push through without helping yourself in a position that feels really hard, you’re likely. To just feel worse and worse and worse and worse. Like we can’t measure our hards and be like, I don’t deserve to feel bad about this because other people have it harder.I think that’s important to remember. It doesn’t diminish that we understand how terrible and harder it is for other folks, but it just means that we don’t. Tell ourselves we’re not allowed to feel things just because other people have even worse situations.So that’s one thing I was thinking and now I don’t remember what the other ones were, so we should just keep going from there and it’ll all come back to me, I’m sure.[00:07:56] Rowan: That is the way that I think a lot of us are feeling right now. we had a health inspector in yesterday and he was asking what days of the week we’re open and what hours we’re open.I was getting my days of the week mixed up. I was saying Thursday when I meant to say Tuesday, and then Dani and I went for lunch and the server asked if we wanted water or coffee. And we both ordered water. And then he said, would you like cream or milk with that? And I looked at him and I said, with my water.He said, you asked for coffee.I’m like, I did? And Dani said, yeah, you asked for coffee. Yeah. So, this is how worn out my mind is now, again, I have a lot going on in my own life, but with that extra layer on top of it where I never just get to shut off anymore, that depletes me.It just completely fries my brain and my body. And I know a lot of people like that, and they keep telling themselves that. They should be fine because at least they’re not in Minneapolis right now. At least they’re not in, just pick the place where there’s some kind of conflict going on where people are in a lot of trouble, where people are fighting for their lives or people are being, disappeared off the street, whatever it might be.And they think, well, you know, what do I have to complain about? I’m in Canada, for example, and. I don’t want to minimize what’s going on in far, far, more dangerous places right now, because again, I know how bad that is. I’m keeping up with it as much as I can. But that doesn’t mean that we’re living with no worry.I think that in Canada right now. Every week or so we’re hearing the leader of the free world, just, I don’t know if that fits anymore. talking about how he wants us to be a state, he wants to take us over and, you know, then Greenland’s right next door and that’s getting pretty serious and then like.Just the other day in Toronto, there was a Canada first rally that was all about, you know, anti-immigration and, along with that, like that isn’t bad enough. You know, anti L-G-B-T-Q anti, you know, I was on the bus on my way back home to record this podcast and I almost had to step in because this man started yelling at a woman because she didn’t understand , what he was asking her.And it was actually quite hard to understand what he was asking. And then when she didn’t understand, he called her an Asian slur.[00:10:40] Lara: Ugh.[00:10:40] Rowan: And then he sat there and cranked up a bunch of alt-right videos so the whole bus could hear his shitty takes on things reflected in YouTube videoswe did what we could to get her away from him without escalating the situation. But these types of things are happening everywhere and. When we don’t let ourselves feel those things, and I’m guilty of that to some extent right now, they just pile on. They don’t just magically go away because you’re not dealing with them right now because you just go, Nope, not gonna feel that, that doesn’t leave the body.It stays in the body and it compounds. It just, kind of sits there until we release it. Right. So, I am, concerned. That a lot of us are taking on these emotions, not processing them either because we don’t want to or because we feel like we don’t have the right to feel them. And that’s going to really catch up to a lot of us soon, it’s going to get worse.This is gonna be a long haul thing. This isn’t gonna go away overnight. I think for a while people are going, well, when it comes to the stuff in the US you know, the midterms, the midterms will take care of it. Well, we don’t know that. there are so many other factors and we know that, the administration is not following the rules when it comes to Congress, taking things to the house, taking things to the courts, listening to the courts, et cetera.So we don’t know, and I think that we really need to be honest with ourselves and maybe stop living in denial that the world has drastically changed and there’s a grief there. There’s a fear there that we now have to factor into our lives on a daily basis.[00:12:31] Lara: Yeah. There’s so much going on. So much is changing.I don’t think we can ever go back and just accepting and grieving that what we thought would be is really not, and that we don’t know what will be is scary.[00:12:48] Rowan: Yeah.[00:12:49] Lara: So there’s two sides of it that I think we need to keep remembering. One is they want us to be scared, right? Everybody who is not on our side, right?Like the folks that are changing things in a way that I really disagree with, they want us to be scared and they do not want us to have joy. They do not want that. And so in that way, refusing to let them scare us to the point of not having joy anymore is letting them win. So if you’re looking for like a spin on, right, like Joy is fighting back and it’s important to remember that fighting back doesn’t look one waythe other part is we can’t be all the things right? Like I’m not in Minnesota, I can’t go out. And do the things. There are people out there playing loud instruments and drums and trumpets all night long outside of hotels to try to keep ice agents awake. Like people are doing things in very different ways.But I’ve been seeing stuff where, like, the silliness of it, I don’t know if you’ve seen protests where people are like wearing the big inflatable costumes and running around with signs. Like they’re like the ridiculousness of it. Takes away some of the charge, right? Like be scared, everything is bad.You are terrible. Why are you, fighting with us when you should just be listening to us. And then they’re dancing around in a frog costume being like, right. There are a lot of different ways to fight back. And we can’t be all the things. We can’t do all the things. And it’s really difficult for some people, and by some people, I mean me too, to think that I can’t do all the things.It’s simply not possible in all aspects of life. Like I know that in so many different aspects of life, I can’t do all of the things. And just because I’m not doing all the things that I see as good, doesn’t mean the things I’m doing aren’t good. And we fight back in the ways that we know how and we can, I think both you and I, a lot of the fight we’ve already started.And been doing for years is to try to keep talking about inclusivity, is to try to keep teaching people that some of the things they’re afraid of aren’t so scary. And I think humanizing and telling stories and just slowly helping people see things in a different way has its value. Also, if I was in Minnesota, I would probably be.Outside on the streets, I’m not. and I could be doing more, but again, we only have so much capacity. And to your point, I don’t think as much as I wish, I don’t think this is ending soon. And if we all burn out now, you know, we need people to take the next shift.[00:15:48] Rowan: Mm, that’s deep. Yeah, you’re right.[00:15:50] Lara: And then you are creating a space, right?So it’s not open yet, but it’s going to be open soon and you’re creating a safe space that is, again, it’s fighting back and creating a space with joy and safety and inclusion is fighting back. Fighting back doesn’t always need to look like screaming and anger. It is changing minds. It’s helping people who are scared.It’s making sure people know where we stand, and that’s certainly one, thing for me, right? Like I’ve been trying to, for years speak up even if as a business owner, people are like, no, no, we don’t talk about politics. I was like, I need people to know where I stand. I need people to know where I stand.I’m going to talk about it. It doesn’t mean that I have to break down and not do anything anymore, but I’m gonna keep talking about it and that is fighting back. So, yeah, that’s a whole bunch of things, but I think making sure that we remember joy and fun and silliness and safety is all part of. How we keep moving forward, because without those things, I think they do win.[00:17:01] Rowan: Yeah. There was something that made the rounds on TikTok recently, and I’m going to end up misquoting it. I’m gonna feel like a bad gay, but it’s in relation to the AIDS crisis back in the eighties and there was a saying. That went something along the lines of, we bury our dead during the day and we go dancing at night, and, it was more profound than that.But essentially it meant that we recognize that people are dying in our community and we also recognize. That we can’t constantly live in grief and that we need to get our energy back to fight another day. And so we have to dance and we have to love and we have to sing and, I think those things are true.[00:17:54] Lara: I went and found it. Hang on.[00:17:55] Rowan: Oh yes, go ahead.[00:17:57] Lara: During the darkest days of the AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning. We protested in the afternoon and we danced all night. The dance kept us in the fight because it was the dance we were fighting for. It didn’t look like we were going to win then, and we did.Doesn’t feel like we’re gonna win now, but we could keep fighting, keep dancing. That was Dan Savage.[00:18:17] Rowan: There we go. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s the truth of it I was pretty young when that was all happening, so , I knew people who had lived through it, but I hadn’t really experienced it myself.but I, it’s something that I think is very true. You know, gay culture. There is a lot of partying in gay culture, but a lot of it, I think, is to balance out the awfulness of having to live through things like, you know, police raids and brutality and being seen as illegal and immoral, and then having to deal with illnesses that nobody wants to really look at, and they kind of think you deserve.Right. So I see that and I see. How important that is now, which leads me to this topic that I bring up all the time. Probably people are sick of me talking about it, but I am actually going to push back on it a little bit today. It’s the topic of privilege, and this happened a lot in the early Twitter days where somebody would, during a tough time.Or even not during a historically tough time, but maybe it was a tough time for somebody responding to this person. So the person would maybe go like, oh, you know, I took the day off and I went for a hike and I came home and I read a book or I made a piece of art, or whatever it was, and the response would be.Must be really nice to have all that privilege to be able to take that time off. Do you know what I did today? I had to do this. Do you know what other people had to do? There are people suffering in the world right now, and this is so tone deaf that you said that you took this time. Like we don’t, all get to do that.Some of us, when we take time off work, if we’re even lucky enough to have a job. You know, Some of us, when we take time off work, we don’t get paid for that, and it would just be some version of this on repeat over and over and over. That’s the shame part of the whole, Dr. Brene Brown thing. But, how is that helpful, first of all, and we all deserve that.Whether or not we all get it is different, but we all deserve to have that time off. So I will be the first person to bring up privilege. I’ll be the first person to bring up privilege. I’ll be the first person to point it out in myself that I have a lot of it. And there are other areas where I don’t have much of it, but overall, I’m a fairly privileged individual.I also think that. I beat myself over the head with that for a long time and would not allow myself to take needed breaks when self-care with the concept of self-care, the terminology, self-care first came on the scene. It was. Well embraced. People are like, yeah, self care, like taking care of yourself.This is wonderful. Like this is what we should all be doing, and then it became a thing that we said only privileged people could do. And is there some truth to that? Yeah, absolutely. The more privilege you have, probably the more opportunity you have to take care of yourself. I don’t think there’s an argument there.If I’m working three jobs and I’m a single parent, I probably don’t have the means to go to the gym or you know, much time for leisurely reading or the opportunity to take a spa day. Very often. No, of course not. So I do think there’s some truth there, but I also think that. Self-care has kind of been, given a bad name because there are many ways to get self-care and you know, it was things like right before I did this podcast, I went to YouTube, which was free as long as you have internet of some kind.And I did a five minute meditation at my desk in between an extremely busy day of running around for my business and recording this podcast because all I have is five minutes, and I was like, I gotta center myself. It cost me nothing but five minutes of my time and it helped centered me and I’m here.That’s self-care. But I really wish we could talk about self-care in a different way sometimes because it, it’s a lot what you said, Lara, where. We need to take shifts. We need to switch off and give each other rest. Some of us are in a good position to do a lot right now.Some of us are not. And then the ones who are doing a lot right now, will probably need to step back and other people need to be ready and willing to take their place. Right. this to me is a lot like. Self-care is just maintenance. It is mental, physical, emotional, sometimes spiritual maintenance.It’s like you can’t keep driving a car if you don’t give it an oil change, if you don’t take it to the mechanic from time to time, if you don’t fill the tank up, right, you can’t keep driving the car. Well, it’s the same with a body. You can’t keep using this body, this mind, these words, everything without taking care of it.So self-care sounds a little bougie, right? But really, self-care is just maintenance and it’s something that we all have to do to some extent. So, I think I need to start using the term maintenance because every time I think the term self care, I start thinking of. These elegant, relaxing days to myself, which is just not what I get, and it’s not what I necessarily need.I need those five minute breaks. I need that good night’s sleep. I need that time off my screens to read a book. I need that nap sometimes after work. That to me is self-care, a walk with my dog, a coffee, that’s self-care. And all of that is very needed right now. We shouldn’t deny ourselves. That opportunity.[00:24:15] Lara: I wanna come back to that Dan Savage quote, because the thing that stood out to me, the most of it was the dance kept us in the fight because it was the dance we were fighting for.[00:24:25] Rowan: Yeah.[00:24:26] Lara: And that’s part of what this is. What we are fighting for is the ability to still have joy. What we’re fighting for is the ability to have freedom.It is the ability to be ourselves. It is the ability to be there for one another and to protect one another. Right? So we need to keep remembering. What it is we’re fighting for. And part of that is the good. That’s why we need the good. And I agree. You know, I think self-care started to feel like go to the spa.And that’s not what it is. It’s really just finding the ways that you can take care of yourself. It’s. put the oxygen mask on yourself before you can help everybody else in the plane. Right. If you don’t take care of yourself enough to be able to fight the fight, then that’s not helpful either.[00:25:23] Rowan: Yeah, self-care for me it’s, taking my HRT every day. It’s taking my blood pressure medication and my anti-anxiety meds. My SSRIs, it is finding some kind of workout and maybe that workout because I’m so busy is that I’m walking from one place to another and I get my heart rate up a bit. Right? It’s making sure that at the end of the day, I just unwind and watch even half an hour of TV just to relax, like all of those things.And I am really big on joy. It’s one of the things that is the most important to me, being able to demonstrate queer joy, trans joy. I think doing that is what I provide to the world. It’s a little harder these days because things are a little harder these days. But I still try to do it because sharing those genuine moments of happiness, those are reminders for other people.They’re glimmers of hope for other people. And it also helps me, I’m more inclined to notice them and to remember how important they were when I share them again. one of the things that I have encountered in my 10 plus years of activism is I have met a handful of activists who don’t ever seem happy.They just seem angry all the time. Now, please don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot to be angry about. There is, but. I feel a little bad for them. I do because it’s like, what are you fighting for if you’re just miserable all the time? What is it that you are getting out of this? If you’re just angry and you just hate the world and you hate people, and I’m not exaggerating this, like I really have had conversations like this with some other activists of various stripes and.I know that this work can be really hard and now suddenly a lot of us are in it who’ve never been in it before. You know, you have, , white moms who are out protesting every single weekend, or, standing outside their schools in the US a whole group of them with neighbors, little old ladies, , so that.If ICE pulls up and starts looking for families, they have a much harder time finding them. Right? So, like, I know that activism can be really scary and it can be really frustrating. You can feel like you’re not getting anywhere and it can make you a little bitter. So I really thinkhaving these moments of joy in prioritizing, seeking them out is important to maintain that balance[00:28:03] Lara: because the dance is what we’re fighting for,[00:28:05] Rowan: because the dance is what we’re fighting for.[00:28:06] Lara: it’s struck me so much, I’m gonna just keep saying it.[00:28:09] Rowan: Yeah.[00:28:09] Lara: But that is what we’re fighting for. And don’t let them. Take it all away from you. I am going. I really, so first I wanna say, I was really gonna try to not talk about this today, but I’m gonna do it anyway.[00:28:26] Rowan: I think I know what you’re about to say.[00:28:27] Lara: Absolutely. Because it’s 90% of my, personality so far this year.So let’s talk a moment about Heated Rivalry.One of the reasons that I think that it has taken off so much is because we need joy, and this show is queer joy. It has a happy ending, which you know, isn’t always the case in representations of queerness.Has a happy ending. But also one of the things I think I’ve heard, I don’t know entirely, but I feel like possibly one of the reasons that it’s taken off so much like globally is because we all do need an escape.So for your like, oh, I still take myself, you know, 30 minutes once in a while to watch tv. I’ve watched many more. Amounts of time than 30 minutes, but it is, it’s a safe space to go when other things feel hard and sometimes we need that right there is that, that level of escapism, that level of. I need to believe in something good.I need to believe in something happy, and I need to remind myself of that. And when I look over here, that’s what I see and that’s what I want in the world. So maybe it’s not the dance I’m fighting for. It is queer television. I don’t know. Um. So I’m just trying to justify the amount of time that I’m watching this show, but it doesn’t really matter.I think ultimately these examples of joy, these examples of how you can lift yourself back up again, how you can think maybe nothing has been like massively solved, but I’m filling my tank back up with hope. That’s a lot of what people are doing and some people are going to be angry and they’re going to tell you off for it, but I think that they’re wrong.I think they’re wrong and. I don’t say that often, right? Like I’m not like adamant a lot, but we get to choose how we can take care of ourselves, and I think it’s good to believe that you can have an impact. I think it’s good to believe that you’re able to make change. I think it’s good to think about how you can help, and even if that’s, you know.Volunteering at the furniture bank like it doesn’t need to be. I’m going to drive to where these folks are and be like the first ones in front of the conflict. We need helpers everywhere, and you can figure out your way in every moment. And then just keep acknowledging your capacity, because like I said, we can’t be everything all the time.[00:31:13] Rowan: And it also means accepting help.[00:31:17] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:31:17] Rowan: Because sometimes the ones that worry the most about others are also the ones who are. Deeply struggling in some other way. My mom has always said to me, the poorest people tend to be the kindest. And I think that there’s some truth to that in the sense that people who have struggled know what struggle feels like.And so a lot of the people that we see out protesting generally tend to be people who. Maybe don’t have a lot of money and maybe. Have family members who have been disappeared by ICE or maybe are queer people or parents of queer people I can kind of go on.People who are disabled, people who are just already dealing with a lot and are like, i’ve got nothing more to lose. Like I’m out here and that’s why it’s so important that we’re seeing many more types of people with more privilege out there as well. But check in on your neighbors. Check in on your fellow activists, check in on your friends, but also let people check in on you.Because if you are somebody who is taking a lot of this in, who is really feeling this, it’s impacting you. And so let people take care of you too. Maybe you have someone who’s like, you know what? I’d really just like to come over and cook for you. Let them come over and cook for you. Or, hey. could I come over and clean your house?Like, do you need a night off from the kids? Maybe you need to go see your doctor. Maybe you need an extra meeting with your therapist, I mean, there’s, so many ways to accept some help and get filled back up a little bit. It also can be really hard, especially because a lot of this is happening in the winter right now, in our hemisphere anyway,it’s dark, it’s gray, it’s cold, and it can be hard to wanna go out and see people. But just going out can do a lot of good. I make myself go for walks almost every day, even if it’s with the dog for 10 minutes because it’s really good for my mental health to get a break from the house, but.We’re seeing our friends a lot less than we used to. And that’s been a thing since the pandemic. People are not going out as much. Maybe make a point of going out. It doesn’t have to cost a lot either. It can cost very little. It can even be free to just go take a walk with somebody or, meet people at the library for a free group or something like that.But get out. Get out and remember. What it is you’re fighting for, what this is really all about, this life of ours, right? This life that you’re creating, this community that you live in. The wholeness, the one of all of us. I think just getting that feeling back can give us something to fight for.[00:34:02] Lara: I agree. It’s okay to feel joy and to do things that we enjoy and that we all get to do that. And stay on top of what’s going on. Right? Like, it’s a balanced thing. You need to understand how much you can handle without falling down to the point where you’re not gonna be able to step up when it’s your turn.And so when we can figure out that balance, I mean, and of course it’s not gonna be easy. Of course there’s going to be times that that’s gonna feel wrong. Of course, there’s gonna be times where somebody’s gonna tell you you’re being frivolous, but I still think remembering what we’re fighting for and that we’re fighting are both true.Right. I am here for the fight, but I’m here to remember what I’m fighting for, and that means whenever I can, letting some of that in to remind me what it feels like and why it’s so important and why everybody deserves it. it’s not a simple time, like no matter what, we’re not saying.Just to be happy. It’s fine, right? Like,[00:35:09] Rowan: yeah. That’s all it is. Everybody , just be happy.[00:35:12] Lara: It’s fine.[00:35:13] Rowan: It’s fine,[00:35:14] Lara: but there is room to still find joy and happiness. There is room for many things at once and when we think. It has to all be one thing. It just blocks us from so much of what we need.[00:35:30] Rowan: What brings you joy right now,[00:35:32] Lara: Rowen, It’s Heated Rivalry.[00:35:35] Rowan: Okay. Gimme something else though.Aha. Hmm.[00:35:40] Lara: Unfortunately. It is mostly Heated Rivalry, but Heated Rivalry in many formats. So I’ve enjoyed the TV shows, I’ve enjoyed the books. I’ve enjoyed the, internet memes and write-ups and media about it, and I’m just trying to allow myself to be okay with that because a lot of the things that generally do give me more joy are feeling harder right now.So art has always been a big one for me. The only new piece of art I’ve been able to make in the last month was a piece of fan art for Heated Rivalry. Like I’m just letting it be true. Like there is certainly some embarrassment about my attachment to this fiction because like,, it’s not only like, I don’t think I felt like this since I was a teenager.I’m not entirely sure I have ever felt like this and. It’s strange and it’s very inexplicable, but a lot of the things that usually help me are feeling more difficult, so I’m not. Going to deprive myself of the thing that feels good. I’m still doing other things. I just started up my line dancing lessons again.[00:36:46] Rowan: Oh cool.[00:36:47] Lara: Went out and did the line dancing and it was fun.so remembering that, and will put it back to you in terms of what brings you joy, but. As you are opening a coffee shop, I wanna remind you that no matter what the stress of opening a coffee shop would mute a little bit of the joy until you get to the place where you’re actually opening.Like the excitement can be muted by the stress of things, and that doesn’t mean it’s not still there. And it doesn’t mean it’s not gonna come but you’re doing something that’s part of the fight with this coffee shop. And acknowledging that we all have different rules and we all fight in different ways, and embracing that I think is important.[00:37:29] Rowan: Yeah. I think for me, when I’m having a hard day, live walking distance from the shop, I mean, it’s a bit of a hike. It’s not super close, but I could definitely walk it and I will be walking it most days. I will go over there, even if it’s at nine o’clock at night. I’ll just go in, unlock it, turn on the lights.I don’t have all the lights yet. Some of the lights aren’t installed yet, but there’s at least some light, and I’ll just run my hands over the countertops and check out the espresso machine and just remember what it’s all for. So it’s the same kind of thing as going dancing. If I just look at just the stress at the coffee shop and all of the heartache that it is, it’s so much money.It’s so much time. I am making a million decisions a day it feels like. And there’s all this backtracking and there’s permit. Anyway, I can just go on and on. It’s, it’s a, it’s a lot. So being able to go in there by myself. Kind of look around and go, yeah, yeah. It’s happeningit might be hard. It might be taking longer than expected, but it is actually happening and it is a life changing thing that we’re doing right now that. Is about as close to joy as I can get right now. That, and I watch a lot of YouTube videos that make me laugh. things like people testing out weird gadgets or people ordering.AI stuff off the internet to see what it actually looks like, which it’s always terrible by the way. Don’t order things that are AI on the internet. They never look right when you get them. so I think that’s the type of stuff that’s just keeping me going right now.Can I read a book right now? No. Can I focus on anything? Not really. So that’s what I do. And the other thing I’m doing is like, actively. I think like a lot of people, it’s just second nature for me to just click on my social media apps without even realizing that I’m clicking on them till they’re open.I don’t know if you do that, but I definitely am somebody who’s done that for a long time, and now I’m starting to learn to pause with my thumb over them or whatever it is, and go, hang on. It’s not gonna make me happy. If I open that right now and I see what’s in, my feed. Is that actually going to bring me joy?The answer by the way is 99% no. So I don’t open it. And that in itself is a form of self-care.[00:39:55] Lara: So by the time this episode drops, the coffee shops should be open.[00:39:59] Rowan: God, we hope so.[00:40:03] Lara: And I think, you know, you’ll have more space for more joy when you’re in a different place. And I think, again, reminding everybody that there are seasons, there are times when things are harder and we need to remember that they don’t need to stay that way.It can be hard right now and you can still remember it won’t be hard all the time forever. Find your people and your community and the things that can bring you joy, because that’s what we all need to lean on the most right now.[00:40:34] Rowan: I think we should leave it there. Thank you so much for listening, and if you have any thoughts or feelings about what we said today, please get in touch.Let us know. Leave us a comment on substack. Send us an email, subscribe. Please subscribe. We love our subscribers, and, you’ll get these podcasts as soon as they drop, like as soon as they drop, you’re gonna get an email to let you know that it’s up. we are now at every two weeks and we’re doing that for the time being because, as we’ve mentioned about 5,000 times this episode.I’m opening a coffee shop, so I don’t really have a lot of podcasting time at the moment. And Lara has a mail club that’s MAIL as she likes to point out. Not MALE. Makes me a little sad as I could be in the Male Club, you know. if you wanna learn more about that, we’re gonna put that in the show notes and you can go check it out because what brings you more joy?Getting a real life letter, a little surprise in the mail.[00:41:36] Lara: The moments don’t all need to be huge, but let’s embrace them. Thanks everybody. We’ll see you soon.[00:41:41] Rowan: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Once upon a time, the internet seemed like it might finally do what nothing else in human history had been able to achieve: create a level playing field for all of humanity.With countless voices sharing ideas, social media, in particular, had the potential to elevate us all to a better, more connected human experience.But today, we get spammed by bots, mocked by trolls, and spend hours doomscrolling. Disinformation campaigns rule the internet, algorithms feed us rage, and voices are censored for political and monetary gain. As a result, people are reporting feeling lonelier, anxiety and depression rates have climbed, and we’re more divided than ever.Lara and Rowan saw the birth of earlier platforms like Myspace and Facebook. They jumped in with both feet on several of them over the years, joining and building communities while encouraging everyone they knew to get online. But these days, they’re asking themselves what a lot of folks are: Is it time to get off social media?LinksRowan’s new coffee shop!Lara’s mail club!Transcript(Transcripts have not been edited for accuracy :) [00:00:00] Rowan: we’ve created these. Technologies that could be fantastic if we could just grow a little as a species to catch up to where we are intellectually Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.And I’m Rowan.[00:00:39] Lara: And this is the first podcast that we’re recording in 2026.[00:00:44] Rowan: It’s true ‘cause the last podcast we recorded in late 2025 because we wanted to have something for the new year for you. You’re welcome.[00:00:52] Lara: That’s right and we are coming into this new year. We have a lot going on.Rowan is getting his coffee shop ready. I am watching, Heated Rivalry on repeat. We have different things going on, but you know, both. Both important.[00:01:12] Rowan: Yeah. Both equally busy.[00:01:13] Lara: Equally busy, equally important. We’re not talking about it.,[00:01:17] Rowan: Hey, equally gay when we think about it.[00:01:19] Lara: Equally gay,[00:01:20] Rowan: they’re both pretty queer, so there’s that.[00:01:21] Lara: Yeah,definitely equally queer. so that’s where we’ve been at coming into 2026, but also we are ready to still create some podcasts for you. And today the topic is one that I proposed and I thought would be really interesting because Rowan and I are both people who have been online. For longer than the average person.We were very early adopters to the online world. We were both doing the BBS thing, which is bulletin board system, which was when we would dial with our modems from one computer directly into somebody else’s computer, and I don’t think we need to try to explain why that was. Fun thing to do, but just know that it happened and we both did it before we knew one another.So we were very early adopters to this digital world, and we’ve come to a point where right now Rowan is opening a coffee shop and really starting to focus on being in person and not necessarily online all the time. And I’m also thinking a lot about. Pulling back from digital for a variety of reasons that I think we can talk about today.I’m not sure that was a great introduction, other than we’re gonna talk about the internet and how we feel about it.[00:02:42] Rowan: Yeah, because I thinksociety. Really pushed the internet on us. It was really big. I mean, obviously there were all the fear-mongering things about, oh, there’s all these predators online, which honestly is true. And you know, there are all these ax murderers, which is a little less true, but, occasionally, it was gonna be this really frightening place for young people but overall, the message that we got, and frankly I think that we both subscribed to and pushed ourselves, was that it was a pretty cool place that you could meet lots of people you could. Find others who are interested in a lot of the same things you were.It could connect you to the world, so it could make you happier, it could make you more social, it could make you more educated. It could help you get your news and fact check things. The world was your oyster with, a dial up modem and then eventually a dedicated high speed modem.But at the time, a dial up modem, what is really hard to reconcile as somebody who spent so long. Loving the internet and all it could do for me and all that I saw it doing for others. And in fact, I built a career on the internet. I would not be an author today if I didn’t have a blog, and that blog got me enough.Readership and enough of a platform to tell a story that I was approached by a publisher to write a book. I mean you know, I would not have the speaking engagements that I’ve had and just all of the, good things that have come my way, if not for the internet. So it is really hard to look at what it’s become today.What it is devolving into in so many ways because it’s, it’s sad. It’s like something that was really healthy and full of promise has gotten very sick and is dying.[00:04:42] Lara: Yeah. I think I was somebody who felt like I was spending a lot of time convincing people. The internet was good that because so many people were like, well, you can’t make real friendships and you can’t make good connections, and it’s antisocial to be on your computer all the time.And I was like. Okay. But also you can make really great connections. I have made so many incredible friends, Rowan, if I hadn’t been online, you and I wouldn’t be friends. Like I have made so many amazing friends, and so I was on the side of like, I’m going to show you that this is a good thing. I met my husband online.I mean, I was trying to think about this before this episode. How many people did I date that I didn’t meet online? And I was like, if I didn’t meet them online, then probably they were introduced to me by somebody I met online, mostly very online. So I’ve just met so many people and so.It does suck to have been somebody who was like, just let me explain to you that this is good. To suddenly be like, I’m not sure it’s good anymore. I’m not sure. I’m not gonna go away, but I am like, I think I need to take a couple steps back.[00:05:56] Rowan: Yeah. I feel the same way. I used to.Know that everybody that I talked to online was a real person. Now, they might not be a nice person, but they were real.[00:06:06] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:06:07] Rowan: And now I don’t know that anymore because some places are 40, 50% estimated to be bots. They are specifically created to engage in certain ways that benefit. Certain political views, certain governments, certain, ideas and, you know, I used to be able to believe pictures because yes, Photoshop existed, but you could usually tell when something was photoshopped and now it’s getting to the point where you can hardly tell that something.Has been AI generated and it’s just gonna get better. It’s getting better and better. And I just watched a video on YouTube the other day where this person who is an AI expert was saying the scary thing is that when you ask some of these tools, is this AI, is this image, AI? Is this video AI? They’re pretty good at detecting if they are.If they were generated by that tool originally.If they were generated by a different AI tool, they may not pick up on them being AI, and in fact, they often don’t, which means you really will never know most of the time. And so you have AI Taking over conversations, AI stirring the pot, creating rage bait for people to argue about.You have AI creating things, videos, things that used to be fun. Somebody would catch this adorable moment with a baby or a dog, or, you know, something really spectacular happening. And now it’s like. Do we even know if that actually happened? It probably didn’t. it’s taken a lot of joy out of things so that’s just one facet of the internet that has really started to turn me away because if my entire reason for being there.At least in a social capacity was meeting people and talking to people and making friends reaching people, educating them. As I do my work, there’s very little incentive to do that anymore because I don’t know who or what I’m talking to.[00:08:21] Lara: Yeah, it’s the , okay, yeah, I could have created something on Photoshop before and maybe you wouldn’t have been able to tell, but generally if I did that.I’d be telling you that I did it on Photoshop. Whereas now all these people using bots and AI, they’re trying to trick people. Which number one makes me upset because I want to believe that inherently people are not trying to trick me, and it turns out I’m wrong. There are people that do wanna trick but also, yeah, it’s taking out. A lot of the authenticity. It’s taking out a lot of the things that I used to spend so much time telling people,made the internet good. It’s disappearing and it makes me sad.[00:09:04] Rowan: There’s also influencer culture. And there’s a big backlash against that now. in my opinion, for good reason. I’ve never loved influencer culture, I’m not anti influencer by any means. I think it’s really cool when you can make a living online, but the culture in general has really become this culture of, curated perfection and sort of the extreme version of that.Is, you know, the sort of the fashionistas who go on these, $5,000 shopping sprees and then come home and say like, help me pick out the best handbag under the four designer handbags I bought today. What’s gonna go best with my outfit? I think for a while that was interesting to people.But now as People are struggling more financially in a way that they weren’t before or as much, it’s becoming harder to relate to this curated perfection, and a lot of people have expressed frustration that.They don’t know if an influencer really likes something or if they’re just being paid to say it because they got paid enough to say that they like this place. And so it used to be that you know, oh, we’re gonna go check out that new restaurant because our favorite influencer showed up and really likes it.But now it’s more like, do they really like it? And then there’s also reports of. Influencers, you know, and this hasn’t happened a lot. I’ve only seen a couple. I was watching a video specifically on this when I was thinking a lot about internet stuff, so this is pretty recent, but there was a video that I saw where.An influencer made comments about how she received really poor service and was mistreated by staff, and the restaurant actually responded and said, we have video footage, because we just have cameras up and what you’re saying didn’t happen. Here is the video footage of you and the situations, and so.It’s just again, what’s real and what isn’t anymore. So I think those are parts of the issue and another big issue, especially when it comes to social media, but this trickles down to even YouTube and a lot of other things that we’re seeing. Even the news that, browser window might wanna show you it’s all curated by algorithms now.So the news that I see might not be the news that you see and my user feed. Like when I log into, threads or Instagram or Facebook or whatever it might be, my TikTok, it’s going to look different than yours. So we’re getting different content and. There are voices. A lot of people have been saying this.There are certain voices that are being all but silenced. They’re putting out content and they’re not getting any traction and. There tend to be similarities in the types of people. So you’re seeing a lot of trans voices, for example. I don’t feel like I’m encountering that personally, but there are people who I would say have more followers than I do, tend to have a lot more engagement than I do.Suddenly on some of these platforms are really struggling to get engagement. And they can’t figure out why, because they haven’t done anything different. And then it’s like a switch went off. So algorithms are influencing. What people see. I have had people say to me, oh my God, Rowan, I haven’t seen a picture of you in months.I’m on here every day, but I haven’t seen you in months, and I just saw this picture of you. Wow, you look great, and this person follows me. And so you’re not even seeing the people you want to see anymore. Like Instagram has become this place where. I don’t see my friends anymore. I just see a bunch of ads and a bunch of big accounts and a bunch of reels, and I’m not seeing nearly as many people.And that was the whole reason I went on there. That’s why I’ve kept my follower accounts so small is so I can specifically follow the people that I care about. So for all these reasons, I feel like the internet has just degraded and degraded and eroded and become this place that is just not very.Fun or usable anymore?[00:13:15] Lara: Yeah, my Facebook is mostly ads or recommended things that I don’t really wanna see, and very little from my friends, and that’s very different, right? Like I was on Facebook before any of my friends, well, I guess one friend was there first. That’s how I found out about it, but I would’ve been.2007. That makes sense. I’m gonna say 2007,[00:13:40] Rowan: that’s about when I joined too. Yeah.[00:13:42] Lara: So it’s changed a lot. Twitter, I was really active 2008 to 13 I think. I left much earlier than most people, but we’ve seen these things change.While the algorithm sometimes plays in my favor, and I’m sorry for all of 2026, maybe forever, I’m just gonna keep bringing up Heated Rivalry, but it has done a great job at feeding me so much content on Heated Rivalry, like well done algorithm, but usually I don’t think that. It’s a great thing, but it does, it does, it learns you, right?So I really like art. I mostly see art when I’m on Instagram. So in some ways it does a good job at understanding you and giving you content that you’re interested in. But the really dangerous stuff is when it only shows you. Stuff from within your bubble. And then that’s why you know when elections go a certain way.And I think everybody I know agrees with me, but clearly that’s not true because the election went a completely other different way. And they also think everybody agrees with them. Like, we’re getting segmented, we’re getting put into these little containers, we’re not hearing from each other anymore. And.It’s just, I don’t know, it’s not good.[00:15:08] Rowan: Even if we go to real people, like sort of continuing that thought, there are still a lot of real people online and I engage with many, so I appreciate that, but. One of the things that has happened for a long time, pretty much since the internet became the internet, but it’s gotten worse and worse, is the erosion of nuance and grace.We don’t tend to look at things with nuance anymore. It’s either black or it’s white. It’s either good or it’s bad. And people are either good or they’re bad. And mistakes are either mistakes that are the worst thing you could ever do and you’re a terrible, terrible person and you’ll be shamed forever.Or they’re not mistakes at all. I think that this is because we have been put into these silos, these echo chambers and. A lot of things are discussed without allowance for nuance, without allowance for,well, I guess a good example of that would beif somebody says, Ireally like the color yellow. It’s a very nice color. And I think yellow makes everybody happy. Somebody else jumps in and says, well, you didn’t consider the people who’ve been in an emergency situation and yellow has been a color of, you know, what about colorblind people?And I know that’s a silly example, but you see this all the time, right? Like This happens. All the time. The, you forgot about this and you didn’t think of that and do better. it’s not constructive conversation. It’s just tearing each other down and this sort of self righteousness that is so, so common.When I wrote my second book, I actually researched that phenomenon because I really wanted to know what is it that gets people like that? And I read a couple studies about how that type of self-righteousness, it, it ignites all the happy hormones. It gives you this nice reward and it’s hypothesized by anthropologists that.When we were, say, living in caves and we were members of a group that needed each other for survival, if one person was sort of acting out of turn and not pulling their weight or stealing food or whatever. Everybody jumping on them and shaming them so they wouldn’t do it again, was a survival thing.And if they kept doing it, they would, you know, kick them out or worse, but I mean, we were rewarded for that because that’s what kept us alive. And our instincts knew that, unfortunately, it doesn’t translate very well to online spaces because we’re still animals.We still have these same behaviors. And these same reward systems. And now when somebody says something we find offensive or forgot about this or. Said something that we’re taking outta context maybe, or maybe we’re not. It doesn’t matter whether we’re right or wrong, but this idea of piling on and just being one of the many, many voices that has now told this person that they’re garbage and they should get off the internet and go walk into the sea that triggers the same reward system.So we’ve created these. Technologies that could be fantastic if we could just grow a little as a species to catch up to where we are intellectually and why we’re creating all this technology. So I just think it’s like we’re not it emotionally and instinctively, I guess, mature enough to handle the stuff that we are creating and putting in front of ourselves.[00:19:05] Lara: Yeah. And - Yes, and[00:19:08] Rowan: Yes, and![00:19:10] Lara: I saw another video. I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense that since we’re talking about the internet and how we’re impacted by it, we keep being like, and then I saw a video or I researched this thing, but it was a video and it was Bernie Sanders and some other man were being asked a question by somebody in the audience.And the audience person, first of all said, well, have you ever seen Wall-E? Which is a movie that I think he misunderstood because he was like, technology can make life easier for us and technology can mean that we don’t have to do some of the, work that doesn’t matter, right?Like it’s gonna make life better. And I was like, that is not what that movie’s about. Okay, let’s put that aside for a moment and say, yes. I think technology was always dreamed of as a thing that would make the world better. It would make it easier for people. It would mean that, if jobs were taken over by technology, that would mean that there would be less burden on the rest of people so that everybody could have an easier life. Not.Now I’ve lost my job and I’m gonna go live on the streets while a robot does my job. Like that is not the ideal of what I feel like a lot of people thought technology could do for the world. And the point, I think it was Bernie Sanders who said was, do you think that these. Few billionaires who are in charge of so much of the internet and AI and where we’re going ultimately want to create an equitable, helpful society.Do you think that that’s what the people who are in charge want and. The answer is no, probably not. And therein lies the problem because is it possible that technology could do a lot of good for the world? Yeah, I think it could, but it can also do a lot of bad. And right now, that’s what I’m seeing more than anything because it’s being led by people who.Want control, not to just make the world a better place for everybody.[00:21:12] Rowan: That leads perfectly into a post I wrote last night, which is what you texted me about this morning. I think I’m gonna read it in its entirety, if that’s okay.So I said our coffee shop opens later this month, and I’ve been thinking about what it means on a deeper level since we first dreamed it up. What I’m most excited about is that I feel like we’re creating something real in a world where it’s becoming harder to figure out what is.Between AI, deep fakes, algorithm suppression, bots and rage farms, our online experiences are being constantly manipulated. It’s becoming more important than ever to reconnect in person, as human beings to be real together. I’m a younger Gen X, and while I didn’t grow up online, my adult life was largely shaped by it.The internet was a huge part of how I met friends in my late teens and beyond. I loved the internet. I loved what it gave us a place to meet folks we never would’ve met otherwise. I still love that today, but I also see what it’s done to us, how it’s harmed us. We say awful things to each other. We’d never say in person.We forgo grace and nuance in lieu of, offense and righteous indignation. Because we can’t read body language or tone in text or because we only see 30 seconds of someone’s life in video format, we’re quicker to take something out of context or jump to conclusions. We forget who we’re judging.Insulting, or condemning is a real human being. We forget their humanity because it’s so easy to do. all of this only helps those at the top who are hoarding the power and the money. Large companies who own our social media love when we fight. They love our outrage, our drama. They love our desperation and our doom scrolling.They love the dopamine hits we get when we open the apps again and again and again because it consumes us. We forget to read books, we forget to go outside. We forget to see our friends. They get our attention and they get richer off of it. And no, I’m not saying we shouldn’t be online. I’m online right now because I was when I was writing this, but I’ve also done all these things I’m describing and sometimes when I’m not careful, I fall back into it.For a long time, I’ve wondered what we can do to fix what’s happening, how to repair the cracks in humanity and come back together as people because we need to, if we’re gonna turn this tide on what’s happening to us, they want us distracted. The big companies, the right wing politicians, they need us to be.I know I can’t fix all the problems, but a small thing I bring to the table is understanding the power of human connection. I love people and I love the magic that happens when we come together in a room. We form strong bonds, we create big things. We experience deep joy, and in those moments we can do anything.That’s what building out this coffee shop is, to me, it’s a gathering space for humans to be human in. It seems so simple, but we need more of that. We are in the fight of our lives, my friends. The global threats we’re facing affect us all. We’ll still need our online spaces to socialize and organize, but I predict offline spaces will be just as vital in the next few years.A lot of folks are already disconnecting more frequently, joining local grassroots organizations, reading books, learning instruments, crafting, playing board games, and reconnecting with the world through their own neighborhoods. I’m excited to play a small part.[00:24:40] Lara: and I think that the coffee shop and creating this space is gonna be so good for people, You know, when I brought up this topic, it was just to highlight that this shift is happening, that people like you and I, who were early adopters who loved the internet, are now maybe early adopting, letting it go a little bit I can’t imagine not being online. There are people all over the world that I don’t know how I would stay connected to otherwise.But also, you know, there are these little moments you’re opening a coffee shop. I am creating a mail club where I am sending in the mail. A paper tangible thing to people , and I’m encouraging people to then send postcards to other people because I think there’s something about that tactile analog piece that we maybe got a little too far away from.Like it’s one thing to do it less. But I feel like we’re, doing it almost not at all, right? Like all the newspapers are gone and almost nobody reads magazines. And if you go to your mailbox, it’s usually just flyers and maybe bills. But even those come electronically most of the time now. And I think that having something a little bit more personal anda little more tactile.It is something that we need.[00:26:01] Rowan: Yeah. I think what the internet brought people was this idea of big, so you could create digital art and it could be shared all over the world, but if you create a piece of art, a picture could be shared. I guess that’s true. I mean, I’ve, I’ve certainly shared my art. With the world via taking a photo of it.But when I paint it’s very local, you know? And you know, it’s like you could be a local celebrity, but you could also be known all over the world without ever having been cast for a movie part or been put on the national news. So. It gave people this opportunity and it still does to make it really big, to make things that touch people all over the world, and I would argue that that is lovely and I’m all for it.And alsothere’s nothing wrong with things being smaller. There’s nothing wrong with. directly affecting the people in your city or your town. There’s nothing wrong with having a little art gallery that people come and visit. There’s nothing wrong with. Having your poetry shared on the walls of your local library.Right. I think that there’s something really beautiful about that. I think that we have gone so far the other way that we’ve almost convinced ourselves that leaving this space that has all this potential for growth is somehow bad. And I say leaving. I’m not leaving. I’m still gonna be online, but I’m gonna be online less.I mean, I’m gonna be really busy. I’m already really busy and we haven’t even opened yet, so I’m not gonna really have a lot of time to be online. A lot of what I’m going to share sort of day-to-day. Parts of my life where I am serving coffee. I’m opening up in the morning. I am getting things ready for an event.I’m talking about how excited I am to have hit a milestone at our coffee shop, but. The real work, having gone from being known internationally for the work that I’ve done and traveling to various parts of the world to do human rights work, to talk, to speak, to sign books, going from that to a little coffee shop in downtown Toronto, might at one point in my life, have felt like a step backwards.we go back to success and what is success and, you know, something we talk about sometimes, right? What is success? And one might argue that, you know, once you have awards and all these, various achievements for what you’ve done internationally, what I’m doing would be somehow stepping back from something great.I don’t think it’s that at all these days. I am so excited to do this. I think I’m creating something that is really needed in the world, and that’s what I’ve always tried to do. Is it, original, open a cafe? No, absolutely not. But is it? Important to create gathering spaces. third spaces for people, especially at a time when people are scared and craving connection, and there’s this loneliness epidemic.I mean, I’m not talking about the men’s loneliness epidemic. I’m talking about people feeling really lonely even though we’re. So presumably connected online, all these people are feeling really lonely. We’ve cut our socializing significantly. , Young people have stopped, partying as much. They’re going out to party and, and I don’t just talk with alcohol and what have you.I’m just talking about going out to have these big social gatherings. They’ve cut that by 50% in the last few years. I, I think. People are lonely and do I think that it’s important to create these spaces where folks can gather? Absolutely. Absolutely. So I’m really excited about that. And there will be an online piece to it, but it’s not the whole picture anymore for me, and I’m good with it.[00:30:11] Lara: I think that the internet gave us the opportunity to go bigger, like you said. And it really did do that, right? It really did give opportunities for people who never would’ve had an audience to find an audience, for people to not have, to always have a publisher to get a book out. Like there’s a lot of things that were really great. But the bigger is better has become. Just ridiculous. Like how big does everything have to be? Why does it have to be so big? Why do we always need to be chasing the next amount of money and the next level up, up, up, up, up. And you know, I think capitalism is, answer because that’s what we’ve been taught to think.But I don’t think we always need to be going bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And so coming more local and thinking about smaller kinds of initiatives is a little counterculture. It’s a little breaking down societal expectations, and that’s why I think it’s so good that we’re talking about it, that we need to just keep reminding people it’s okay that we don’t always have to go bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.We don’t have to feel like failures if we weren’t the biggest, most successful person. Successful. In quotes. There’s a lot that is good. There’s a lot that can be a success in the connections that we make and in the. Ways that we feel just good within our smaller lives, and to me that’s a shift. It took me a while to get there, but I notice it constantly Now.I don’t need to go bigger to bedoing life well, but it’s still hard.To not have that in the back of your brain telling you, well, you should be making more money. Well, you should have a bigger audience. Well, whatever it is. But I think these smaller steps away, and again, it’s not a complete step away, but just acknowledging that even, and I’m gonna say that.Since the pandemic, it’s gotten harder and harder for me to want to go out, right? So I understand that. Like to me, I’m like, well, I could just order in. Well, I could just call somebody like going out feels like a lot. And so I am trying to make sure that I still make the effort to go out and do things in person.Because it’s important, and while it’s fantastic that I can also spend an hour on the phone chatting with my friend in Portugal without it costing $5,000 in long distance fees, I also wanna make sure that I know where I am and how to stay connected, and that I’m not always thinking about online.[00:32:58] Rowan: Well, a lot of people are really worried right now, too. they’re worried about the world and the things that are happening. you know, what’s the guy in the White House gonna do next? is there going to be some kind of chaos erupting around me? And I, I don’t lie awake at night worrying about our direct situation here. But I do think that when it comes to any emergency preparedness or any type of, organizing that needs to happen in a crisis or anything, knowing your neighbors is number one. And everybody will tell you that knowing your neighbors. Knowing your local community people, knowing your local resources, those are very important and just for day-to-day things.And I think I really learned this Moving to Toronto because I live in a very urban neighborhood now, and I can walk to pretty much anything I need. There’s something really great about getting to know everybody. At your local bank, you know, actually going into banks sometimes. I know that’s a luxury.I’m going to. Really not like that. I can’t bank locally soon that I’m gonna have to do everything online ‘cause I’m gonna be so busy. But, but I mean, like, you know, going to my local hardware store, going to chat with my pharmacist, going out into the world, sitting in my local coffee shop, which is not my coffee shop.It’s another one that’s up the road for me. you know, just getting to know my baristas, like all of those things are. Not only good for something extreme like an emergency, but they’re also just really good in terms of mental health. and feeling connected. Because when everything is done from home all the time, we’re missing certain things.we’re missing a lot of body language. If mostly what we do is talk by text. we’re missing just the very real. Human feelings that happen when you’re in a room with other human beings. I think also getting outside of your house helps you get outside of your head. I was just talking to someone today who’s having a really rough time with the way the world is, and what I said to them was, go for a walk more.Because when they actually directly asked me for advice, like, what do I do when I feel like that? And I said, I go outside. I put my shoes on and I go outside and I go for a walk, especially when it’s the last thing I want to do, especially when all I want to do is stay home. I make myself go, and every single time, no matter how I’m feeling, no matter how bad it is.Even if I don’t feel a hundred percent better at the end of it, I still feel better than I did before because I get out, I get to see reality. I’m looking at the trees, I get to see a cute dog. There’s some kids playing in the park. You know, I, I get to wave to one of my neighbors and say hello for a minute.Like those types of interactions, talking, the cashier, et cetera, those things. Fill me up and ground me in a way that nothing online ever does. As much as I can list a lot of things that I get online, those specific things I just mentioned are not those. So, I think it’s really important that we get out and we connect and get to know the people in our, community.[00:36:18] Lara: I’ll also say that I don’t always feel better when I do those things, but. I am learning that the long-term benefit exists, right? So if you are a person who is like me, who’s like the stupid walk for my stupid mental health didn’t even make me feel better, so why am I gonna do it again?Some people, it’s not going to be immediate. And I think that I just wanna remind people of that because sometimes I’ll feel like, well, why do you all feel better? I don’t feel better. Stop telling me. I’ll feel better. But there is value in doing it a little bit anyway. And understanding.That there’s a longer term value. There’s one other thing I wanted to share because I think we’ll probably wrap up soon, which is at Christmas I gave a family gift and my family opened it up and they’re like, what is this? I was like, paper maps And they’re like, why, why did you give us paper maps?And I was like, listen, I’m not saying. The apocalypse is coming, but I do know that multiple times in the last five years, we have lost all telephone, internet power, like in a way that. I’d never seen before in a way that I’d never been disconnected as much. Right. Like before, if your power went out and your internet went out, well, your phone still worked.But then one day my phone didn’t work either, and I was like, we need to have these on hand just in case. And you need to know how to read a map just in case. And that’s it. it’s not that I’m saying I’m not gonna use Waze anymore to have it tell me where to go, but I am gonna make sure that there is some kind of backup that my kids know how to read a map, because we just need a little bit of both.[00:38:06] Rowan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s like I just went on about how much I hate AI because as a general rule, the way that it is being used in society right now, I do hate it, but. I don’t actually hate AI as a tool. I think it’s okay to, utilize AI in healthy ways and in mindful ways because it is so damaging to the environment.like to sort of take, again, this is nuance. It’s nuance kids. This is, This is what I was talking about. You don’t have to be all the way over here. All the way over here, right? Like a lot of my stances are, seemingly anti-capitalist. And I was saying to you earlier, Lara, like, I’m not I am anti late stage capitalism though. Wow. Like it is pretty f*****g awful. But. I think that there is a beautiful, happy medium where we don’t have to abandon all technology, but we also pick up more of the older stuff that we used to have. Like how many of us have lost our ability to read a book? We cannot sit and read a book anymore because these 30-second videos have destroyed.Our ability to sit down and focus on anything that is longer than 300 words. And when I realized it about myself and I started to realize, I’m like, I am a writer. I am an author who cannot sit down and read a book very often. I got mad. I got mad at what technology had done to my brain, and I made myself start to be able to sit down and read a book.It was really hard at first. And some days when I’m stressed, it’s still not easy. And okay, , this is where I was on Twitter for too long. ‘cause now I’m like, oh. And also I recognize that people have DHD and also I recognize that people have learning disabilities. Like I’m trying to like make this big list in my head so no one gets mad at me.But like, seriously what I’m saying is like somebody who maybe is not struggling with those things, is not dealing with those things in their lives. Who used to be able to read books all the time and now finds that they can’t read books. there’s a lot of studies out there showing that the internet has destroyed our ability to focus.So I channel that anger back into making myself read books, and I read paper books. I actually almost only read paper books and I love it. I love that tactile feeling. And also, if I can nerd out for just a second, I wrote an entire article a few years ago on this. Paper books. Allow us the tactile function of paper and actually running our fingers over it and flipping the pages.It helps commit. What we’re reading to long-term memory is actually very beneficial. Now, if you can only read books digitally or you prefer it and it works for you, fantastic. Do it that way. But I wanted to say for my fellow book nerds who get told they’re destroying trees, okay, yeah. We kind of are destroying trees, so, you know, we have to be mindful of that.But paper books, they’re good for you.[00:41:12] Lara: Yes. I don’t like reading paper books because I drop them on my face a lot because I read lying down.[00:41:19] Rowan: Oh, imagine hardcover. Oh, you don’t have to imagine you’ve done that, haven’t you? As you’ve fallen asleep and you drop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I even take them into the bath and I’m like, what are you doing, Rowan?Don’t do it. Don’t do it. You’re so silly. I haven’t actually ruined, oh no. I ruined one book in the bath. But anyway, I digress.[00:41:37] Lara: But I do like writing. This is right, like I think it’s really important for me not to just type everything. I handwrite a lot of things, especially if I’m doing any kind of thinking work, especially if I’m struggling like I handwrite.And there are also studies that show that the connection between your handwriting of something versus typing is different for your brain and how you input information.[00:41:59] Rowan: Wow. All the things we were not aware of when we were first introduced to the worldwide web[00:42:06] Lara: as we called it then.[00:42:08] Rowan: I know I just aged us.This has been such a good conversation. I guess my takeaway from this is, that it’s okay to push back. Against making online your entire thing without having to give it up entirely,[00:42:25] Lara: and to notice the little moments where you can step away from it, right where you can decide. Maybe I’m going to take things out of a group chat and I’m gonna invite all my friends over for a drink.I’m gonna invite them all to Rowan’s coffee shop. Right? But whatever it is, it’s, let’s, remember to do this. And I think in this world, things just keep getting more and more overwhelming. And it’s easier and easier to not do the thing and. While I am a big believer that sometimes you don’t need to do all the things people say, I think it’s a good reminder to check in with yourself and say, maybe I want a little bit more of this analog life.[00:43:06] Rowan: and anytime we are implementing.A new skill in our lives or something that we’re trying, or maybe we’re going back to after years and years of not doing it. It can feel a little weird, a little uncomfortable at first, but just like anything else, like you’re trying out a new exercise or we gotta give it a little bit. So it might be hard.To spend a little more time offline. A lot of us forget that our brains love it. Those alerts, when they started to put those notifications in, that was specifically done because psychologically our brain loves that. It’s like that little dopamine hit over and over. Every time you get a like on something, every time that little red, number pops up, whatever it is.It might not feel great at first to distance yourself from that, but it’s like anything else. Like I quit smoking when I was much, much, much, much younger, and I remember when I turned the corner and smoking no longer felt enticing in any way. It just felt like, this is gross. Why did I ever do that? And I’m so grateful that happened, but I had to stick it out to that point. It took a long time and I think breaking any habit, and let’s face it, a lot of us these days, we go online and we start to doom scroll, and if we were to stop ourselves for just a second and go. And I, I’ve been doing this lately, that’s why I’m saying this.Stop ourselves for just a second and go, is this making me happy? Like this is my downtime, is what I’m reading right now, making me happy. And I do a body scan, I check in with myself, and it doesn’t, most of the time when I’m reading is not, or what I’m seeing is not making me happy. So I put it down, and I put it away and I do something else.So if we could just be honest with ourselves and be gentle with ourselves, I think many of us could benefit with a bit of a cleanse here.[00:45:06] Lara: So think about it. Is there a local coffee shop that you can. Come and check out. By the time this episode comes out, Rowans might be open.So if you’re in Toronto, you can go sit in a coffee shop. do you wanna read a paper book? Do you wanna get a letter in the mail from me every month with little fun things? Do you want to just invite your friends out and do something instead of the group chat? Just think about it one step at a time.That’s all I think we’re thinking.[00:45:35] Rowan: And take care of yourselves out there. It is tough right now. I know it’s really tough right now. , and if you’re struggling, I hope that you’re able to reach out and talk to somebody and if you’re not feeling so good, I hope that you take excellent care of yourselves and, be safe.[00:45:50] Lara: Thank you for being here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

It’s a new year, and we’re kicking it off by digging in a bit further to who we are. And we both learned some new things about each other in the process!We talked about our newest projects - Rowan’s cafe opens soon, and Lara’s mail club has launched!We talked about regrets, hope, taking risks, and even stand-up comedy.Want to know anything more about us? Comment and we’ll use some of those questions in upcoming episodes!LinksRowan’s new coffee shop!Lara’s mail club!Check out the show transcripts on our substack at unboxingit.substack.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

What a year.The above was written without an exclamation mark on purpose because that year was 2025.There was a lot of change in the world—much of it, um, not so good—and I think it’s safe to say a lot of us are looking forward to these 365 days being in the rearview mirror. But also, this was the year we launched Unboxing It! And that deserves at least two sentences with exclamations! This little podcast grew from a “what if we did this?” into “OMG we’re actually doing this!” It was like watching our audio baby take its first steps. We’ve had over thirty heartfelt conversations on personal growth, societal issues, and breaking free of expectations. We’ve had several guests lend their wisdom (thank you!), and plenty of feedback from you, the listeners, that we’ve tried to fold into the shaping of this passion project.In this final week of December, your intrepid hosts Lara and Rowan look back on this year of podcasting. Why did we start this thing in the first place? What were our favourite episodes - and yours? Have any of our views changed on these topics since first tackling them? And most importantly, what’s next?Oh, and this is important, too: Because Rowan (that’s me) will be opening a coffee shop and wine bar in January 2026 and Lara has some new projects on the go too, we’ll be moving from a weekly episode to every two weeks while the dust settles. We love our podcast, but we also need to honour where life take us and guard against burnout.Thank you for an incredible year. We can’t wait to show you what’s coming in 2026!With love and gratitude,Rowan and LaraLinksEpisode 1 on FatnessEpisode 12 Arrogance vs ConfidenceEpisode 21 Should you have kids?Episode 23 On Being LateEpisode 27 Aging Against ConformityTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: This feels better if I’m more true to myself, more aligned with myself, that feels better, not just in the transition way, but in so many other ways that I just wanna help other people maybe get there sooner than I did.[00:00:39] Lara: Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.[00:00:41] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.[00:00:42] Lara: And this is episode 35.[00:00:46] Rowan: 35[00:00:48] Lara: 35. That’s a lot of episodes.[00:00:50] Rowan: That’s my age.[00:00:51] Lara: Yeah,maybe[00:00:53] Rowan: that’s my age. Plus 14, I guess. But who’s counting?[00:00:58] Lara: It’s too late. We’ve told everybody we’re almost 50 a million times in those 35 episodes.[00:01:02] Rowan: Yeah, it’s true. It’s true.The cat’s outta the bag.[00:01:05] Lara: Cat’s out of the bag. But we wanted to spend this episode talking a little bit about. Those 35 episodes. This is the last episode of 2025. So it’s that time of year where you do a little bit of reflection, bit of, what’s coming next. And it seemed like the perfect time to do that for the podcast too.[00:01:25] Rowan: and we have so many topics that we’ve covered like somany.[00:01:31] Lara: Yes, we have talked about a lot, including a few about aging, but everything from confidence and arrogance and people pleasing and fatness and and and so many, and I’ve really loved it. this is not my first podcast. I have had. Quite a few years of podcasting and I always struggled to ever listen to the episodes after they were recorded.And every week I look forward to listening to our conversation in its entirety and just kind of, well first of all, I get to do this a lot. Mm-hmm. I still agree with myself. can be fun for me. But I think the conversations are interesting. I’ve gotten feedback from other people that it has them thinking.I have gotten feedback from people that they’re maybe driving and they’re like. Asking questions out loud back to us. I wish I could hear them because it’s getting people thinking about things they don’t always agree, and that’s okay too. But it has people thinking about a lot of topics that I think are worth thinking about.And so to me, that alone means that thisproject has been a great success.[00:02:50] Rowan: I am proud of what we’ve done so far. One of the things I do want to talk about is how we got started. Like, what, was it that. Got us saying to each other, you know what we should do? We should have a podcast.Because I think a lot of people talk about whether they’re joking or not. You have a lot of people talking about like, well, you should have a podcast, or I should have a podcast. think The running jokes since I transitioned was, well, Rowan, you know, as a man you should have a podcast, cuz don’t all men have podcasts?We actually came up with this just based on our friendship and the conversations that we have,[00:03:27] Lara: Yeah.Andour previous work, right? Both of us have done a lot of work around helping. Other people feel comfortable being who they are, and whether it’s been your books or my book or the advocacy work you do, whether it’s in queer spaces or not, the crux of so much of what we like to talk about is to help people understand themselves better and be comfortable with themselves and.We naturally, when we’re having conversations talk about that stuff, so why not talk aboutit.while other people can also benefit from the fascinatingly interesting things we say.[00:04:09] Rowan: Yes, that’s how I would describe us. Fascinatingly. Interesting.[00:04:14] Lara: We are, hopefully people agree with that, but I do think.I mean, I think we’re interesting. That’s what I think.[00:04:22] Rowan: Well, I think that there’s a lot of life experience between us. And some of it is the same and some of it is vastly different.And that lends to some insight, some wisdom, and just also I think a certain level at middle age of , I’m gonna say fed upness, like I’ve just had enough of trying to buy in to society in ways that don’t work for and I was somebody who was very, very big into rules when I was younger. If I just follow these societal rules, my life will be just fine and. That was not the case. In fact, I had to break a lot of those rules and go against the grain and push for a more authentic way of living. That has led to freedom and a more profound happiness contentment, if you will. and I think I just got to the point where I was like, this feels better if I’m more true to myself, more aligned with myself, that feels better, not just in the transition way, but in so many other that I just wanna help other people maybe get there sooner than I did, because ultimately I think for real happiness, we all have to arrive at the place where we are truest to ourselves. And still kind and loving and willing to grow. Some of us get there later, and if we’re lucky, some of us get there a lot sooner. So that was a reason for me to want to do this podcast.[00:06:06] Lara: I think some of the things for you and I, where we have started figuring it out, came partially more out of necessity than others.Which became a gift, even if it didn’t always feel great at the time, but because you’re kind of pushed into new areas, you learn more. have to also be open to it. But I do think a lot of other people, and, and that’s part of my motivation, have just never really thought about certain things. They’ve never really considered certain things.They’ve never decided not to be open to a different way of thinking. They just never knew a different way of thinking was possible. And until we talk about things, I don’t think. People do know things, right? It can be the simplest thing, but if you don’t know that that’s a thing, you’re not gonna start doing it.And so having conversations storytelling, all of that. I think that’s so important, and I hope that’s what people are taking awayfrom the podcast.[00:07:01] Rowan: Exactly. when you thinkof, say our first. Episode, like we just jumped right in. We’re like, let’s talk about being fat. Let’s just go right there, because we are both larger people and we both have experiences with feeling all right with that and not feeling all right with that and watching struggle and struggling ourselves.How do you feel about that first idea and have your thoughts on it changed at all?[00:07:33] Lara: I don’t think my thoughts have changed. What I immediately thought when you said, our first episode was on fatness was, I don’t think we’ve done enough on body image. Maybe we need to be talking about that some more.I think it’s such a huge one, and how we see ourselves and how we feel in our bodies is huge.Sorry, I got stuck on a huge being another word for being really fat and then that was not what I meant, but that’s in my head.[00:08:02] Rowan: It’s amazing.[00:08:04] Lara: Anyhow, I think that it was a really great place to start, right? Because it was a bit of a vulnerable thing for both of us potentially, to talk about, because we could relate to how it, impacted us our whole lives. But then that’s how we continued talking about things, whether it’s about, things being fairor you and I talk a lot about how it’s impacted us and what I hope people understand is we do that so that you can see the topic in a way that seems human and then understandable more than just as like this general philosophy topic. I want you to know preachy thing[00:08:43] Rowan: There are so manyways to approach a topic to feel about that topic.And some are far more personal than others. Like, everybody has some kind of relation to something like fatness because you either have more weight on your body or you don’t, or you perceive your body a certain way as maybe being bigger than it is, or smaller than it is, or, it ties into fitness.It ties into, relationships. It ties into. All different kinds of things. It’s a very complex issue. Unfortunately, I wish it wasn’t. I wish that we could just meet ourselves where we’re at because there is nothing more attractive. About a person than confidence in my opinion. And then confidence is what can make your whole life better.And I’m not talking about ego, we’ve talked about that too, ego and arrogance and confidence. But I’m talking about just owning the space that you take up, being comfortable with who you are. still saving space for others, obviously, I will say. About fatness specifically. I still feel very much the same as I did before about my body and that I am a larger person and that I’m okay with that.But I will definitely admit that since having top surgery, I feel so much more at home in my body.So you wanna talk about self-image? My relation to my larger body is healthier than it has ever been because I don’t feel at war with it at all. There are not parts on my body that I really wish weren’t there, and it has more masculine appearance and that.Makes me feel so much better about my belly and about everything else. Right. So it got even better. I think that’s sometimes what people miss abouttransness is that, it hasa lot of. Similar characteristics. Body dysphoria has a lot of similar characteristics to poor body image. It’s not quite the same, but it really comes down to this delicate balance for me.Between changing what I can and knowing that that feels right, because of course the argument could be made that like, well, if you got comfortable with your belly, why couldn’t you get comfortable with your breasts? But they’re very different things in some ways too. But having no breasts anymore.Which I still put my hands over my chest several times a day. Like eight and a half weeks in now I’m doing it right now ‘cause I just sometimes just still can’t believe that my chest feels right. I think just having. That even though it’s not, you know, does it look like Thor’s chest?No, of course it doesn’t. It looks like a bigger guy’s chest. but I’m so happy with it. So, yeah, all of this stuff about self-worth and we should do more on self-worth and just about self-love and what it really means to love yourself. What it really means to, feel right and the importance of it.Because the amount of energy that we expend on not feeling at home in ourselves, however that is it just takes away from so much. So that’s a very convoluted way of saying that. I feel even better now than I did during episode one because of gender affirming care. And it has helped me love my body in a way I did not think possible.[00:12:27] Lara: I love that. That’s true. I love that For you, I think it’s an interesting topic to dig more into and we had somebody even suggested as a topic, and we haven’t covered it yet, because I think it’s such a big topic to figure out how to handle right, is how to love yourself more, and knowing that I am.Not somebody who would ever dismiss gender affirming care. I feel like I have to put a caveat in before the next thing I say, which is I have a lot of envy at the idea of feeling good in my body, right? Like, I’m so happy for you. I think it’s amazing that you’re feeling better in your body, that it feels more correct.I envy that and I don’t know what will need to happen for that to be true forme.[00:13:15] Rowan: Yeah, And I think you represent a lot of people in a statement like that. I know many people who are even much older than we are. I know many people who are younger and would arguably have bodies that are enviable themselves, you know, oh, like I kill for that metabolism.You know, like, oh, what do you mean you don’t have to work out and you look like that? That’s amazing. Or whatever it might be. Whatever it might be. . But they also don’t feel good and so I think it comes down to it being a lot more about the work we do inside than whatever is going on outside.So, yeah, that is a topic. To explore for sure. A lot of it is mindset. Some of it is trauma, some of it is mental health. Some of it is physical health. I mean, it just can go on and on. But I would like to see us unpack that a bit more because even though I’ve done a lot of work on that overall, and I can very confidently say I love myself, I don’t hate the way I look.I don’t hate the way I feel except for my knees lately. Like, come on knees. Like, give me a break. , Oh wait, we already talked about that too. I was gonna say that’s just aging. But now we know, that that is not always aging. that’s a fascinating topic as well.I think the guests that we’ve had on have. Enlightened me so much that conversation, about aging and how to look at the body holistically and how we don’t have to subscribe to this idea that aging means pain or immobility. It was, was so transformational for me. what did you take away from that and other conversations that we had?Like what were some of the big takeaways for you when it came to our guests this year?[00:15:15] Lara: Well, I definitely wanted to bring up that I love the discussions we have with our guests, right? Whether it was Marie, we talked about, education with Stephanie and we talked with Misty, who is another author. We’ve talked with a bunch of people and I think. Having these conversations where you just keep getting other people’s perspectives on things, right?Where you keep understanding it from more and more directions where you can learn from other people’s knowledge. Julie, who we also talk to about aging is somebody who I’m constantly learning more from in terms of. What I might have been taught unconsciously, how society teaches us and reinforces negative messages, how we can start changing that conversation and for us to keep talking about this stuff.It’s always helping me. Understand a little bit more, relate to myself a little bit more, figure out how to talk to other people about things, how to support other people. Like I don’t think any of us should be attempting to figure all this out alone. And the more conversationswe can have with the more people, the better.[00:16:27] Rowan: You said something in therethat made me think of another topic that I want to touch on next year, and that is the societal belief that once you get to a certain age, you don’t matter anymore. You’re no longer relevant. I know we’ve talked about it a little bit here and there, but I found myself while we were thinking about, , all the things we’ve done on aging and the fact that we talk about how we’re almost 50 and, all these different things, that there’s almost a level of embarrassment or shame.That’s just this little undercurrent in me, and I know it’s not coming from me not me directly is what I’m trying to say. I’ve always looked at people who are older than me and thought, wow, you have so much life experience that’s really cool. Like you’ve lived twice as long as I have. That’s, very hard to find these days.Somebody who’s lived twice as long as me, you’d have to be at least 98 at this point. they exist. But I think there’s also this idea, and I saw this happen on queer TikTok, for example, not too long ago where there was this sentiment going around that if you were over 30, you really were irrelevant.At this point, you should just shut up 30 years old, you know, there were like 17 to 22 year olds basically going like, no, if you’re not young like us, , you have nothing valid to say. Right. So I do think that there needs to be more discussion about this because. It also happens on the other side where you have people going, well, you’re so young, you have nothing of value to say you haven’t lived yet.And that’s not true either. So, maybe this episode is really just a brainstorming session on other things we wanna talk about, but it is, a valid criticism of how society works. I think there’s room at the table for everybody, right.I think aging has been a fantastic topic. One of the topics we got a little bit of pushback on, and by a little bit of pushback. I mean, we got one comment, but it was valid. we discussed having children and, being childless by choice, and think you responded to that comment, so I’m gonna let you speak on it a little bit.Yeah. I think that the feedback was maybe as people with children, you shouldn’t speak for people who. Don’t have children or who don’t want children, and I think that’s a valid thing in all places. I also think that we very much wanted to make it clear we were trying to give our perspective on what we might say to somebody who’s thinking about having kids and how we know that when we grew up having kids was.Presented as the thing you would definitely do unless for some reason like nobody wanted to marry you.Yeah. Like if you were a successful adult, you were going to get married. And you were going to have children, and if you didn’t do those things, there was this idea that there was something wrong with your life.So yeah, we were trying to present in a different way. And also I think we were saying that, you know, there were a ton of podcasts and videos and essays and even books from people who chose not to have children. And them saying, this is why I did it and this is why it works for me. And this is what I would say to somebody who’s weighing those options.And there are also some people with children who will put a lot of pressure on others. To do exactly what they did and have children for maybe some of the reasons we said maybe for religious reasons, cultural reasons, all these different things we were trying to talk about how it’s really okay not to have kids, because having kids can be very challenging and it does change your life.Not that we don’t love our kids or regret our choices, but trying to give a very realistic view. Of what that looked like.[00:20:40] Lara: And I think that episode actually might have spoken even more to a different segment of people than we first thought it would be for. Right? So whether it’s for people who are either feeling like they maybe don’t wanna have children but feel like that’s not really accepted, or they didn’t have children like that sort of side.But I also got some feedback from people with children who appreciated. Our candid discussion about the fact that it isn’t always easy, that it is hard, and that that isn’t a thing that people talk about very much. And so it can feel like, well, I’m the only one struggling. Everybody else seems to have it easy, but when we have candid discussions about topics people don’t talk a lot about, it can help all kinds of people in different ways.[00:21:25] Rowan: We’re recording this just before Christmas, like about four days before, and my week is half opening a coffee shop because I’m getting the keys in a couple weeks. So it is just mayhem and also. Between my partner and I, we have five adult children and four of them are coming for the holidays and one is recovering from surgery.So she is not coming for the holidays, but I’ve got grocery lists running through my head. I have gotta go pick two of them up from their place , and that’s outta town and there’s a puppy. A puppy’s coming, right? Like, it’s like all these different things , and so it doesn’t end.Having children isn’t just like, well, they’re 18 now. Like they’re, all of them are adults and we’re still doing this, you know, crazy holiday, like whatever. And this is just, the holidays of course gonna be the busiest time, but my life is. Always, I’m always taking into consideration five extra people.I love those five extra people. They are the best humans in the world. Also, my brain. Is as full as my heart. my heart feels great about it, and my brain is just a little chaos monkey right now. So anyway, I’m glad that we could add that perspective. and I understand if it was taken wrong, or if somebody had their own views on it.But I don’t regret doing that episode. I think it’s awesome that the suggestion was made that we should talk to. Some people who are childless by choice. We actually did at one point, we talked to Julie, who, chose not to have kids, and she talked about how aging looks different when you don’t follow the script, which was a fantastic conversation.I’d love to have more of these. I wanna have more perspectives like this. If there’s anything that I wanna see more for us in the future, it’s diversity. I wanna see more people from completely different backgrounds come on our show, and I want to give them this space to discuss their experiences and educate those of us who have not lived those experiences, that’s a big 2026 goal for me.[00:23:44] Lara: Yeah, I think that would be wonderful. I would also say that one of the things. I certainly worried about ahead of time, and that did happen a little bit on one episode and I may not have even told you, was that if we put our opinions out there, people are gonna tell us we’re wrong. And there was the episode on, being late.And how that’s something that I struggle with. And had at least one person, I think two people when I posted. it might have been on TikTok, it was on social media, it wasn’t on our post who said no, like it’s super rude. Being late is rude. in this day and age, just get a calendar kind of responses and.That’s the kind of thing that would’ve crushed me in the past because I was like, I knew it, I’m terrible. fortunately I was just like, and you are. Why we are having this discussion. Like, End of story. The fact that you can’t see the other point of view, because a lot of the people who respond that way do it in a very matter of fact way.Right? Like you were wrong. End of story versus understanding that different people operate in different ways and that we need to take different things into consideration and that different solutions work for different people. And that’s why we’re having these conversations so that you can know that there are different kinds of brains that you can know that when somebody’s doing something, they’re not willfully trying to be a jerk.They might just really struggle with it, even though you don’t struggle with that thing. And so. I guess the two sides of that were, one, I didn’t get crushed when somebody told me I was wrong, which is good, but also that this is why we’re having these discussions.[00:25:26] Rowan: Okay, so first of all,just want to very. Emphatically commend you for that kind of growth. Because as somebody who gets a lot of criticism online, it can be really hard, and there are some things where they hit harder because there may be a kernel of truth in them. To me, I may. Kind of believe that already about myself, and then somebody says it and it just pokes the wound.Right? It just hits that really sensitive spot. So, good job. The other thing is I think there’s a way to give feedback that is not awful. And if only people could do that more often. For example, let’s say I heard that conversation. And I run a tight ship of an office and I need people there on time, what will be more helpful in my opinion, would be to say, you know, I work in a medical office and it can be really difficult when people come in late for these reasons.So I just wanted to provide the other side of that because while I understand you’re struggling, I think perhaps I’d also like you to understand that it really hurts me too when you show up late that. Would be a very different thing than well just get a calendar loser. You know what I mean?in this day and age, there’s just no excuse to be late anymore. , And I’m not saying anyone called you a loser, but what I’m trying to say is that like, that’s the difference between a discussion and a judgment. If you’re judging someone, you already think you’re right, and no matter what they say or do, doesn’t matter.But if you’re. Trying to get them to see your point as well, and you’re at the same time trying to understand where they’re coming from. That is a healthy discussion and I would love to see in general, not just with our podcast, but like in general all over the place, much more of that in the new year.[00:27:27] Lara: Yes. I agree emphatically. I did want to also take a moment to acknowledge, we have these conversations and then my lovely husband Eric edits. These podcasts and we haven’t really talked about that, but he spends a lot of time going through these, cleaning them up, taking out, the things we might have stumbled over.And I really appreciate it. And not only do I really appreciate it, but I have had multiple people tell me that they find our podcast easy to listen to, which I think is a lot to do with the editing. So I just wanna take a moment to acknowledge him and all the hard work he does. And we know he’s listening.[00:28:14] Rowan: That’s true. also wanna take a moment, I’m just gonna call my audio husband from now on, but Eric, thank you. And, I’m sure that there are a lot of people listening who would thank you as well. It is really difficult work. I have a child who works as an audio engineer and does a lot of.Audio books, the various levels of editing that go into those, and it’s meticulous and it takes skill, and I am very grateful that Eric puts in the work to make this a reality for us. So thank you.[00:28:49] Lara: Well, I think then we should look a little bit forward into 2026. We’ve done 35 episodes. What do we see coming next other than the fact that we’ve come up with some new topics right here today?I think we should say a little bit about what 2026 is gonna look like. Especially keeping in mind Rowan is about to open a coffee shop,[00:29:11] Rowan: right? So I am getting the keys to a coffee shop in about two weeks, and it has been built from the ground up, so. I need to say that when we first came up with this idea for this podcast and when we started to record this podcast, even.There was no coffee shop in the works. This all came about because my partner dani, lost her job. And then a project that was very near and dear to me that I was working on that was DEI focused, was scrapped. In large part, I think because of the anti DEI climate of 2025. So we were in this position where we didn’t know what to do next, and then it very quickly pivoted into let’s do the thing we always dreamed about.So that thing has been months in the making and in early 2026, like January. We’re opening. I can’t believe it. It’s weird to say. It’s weird to say that on record, like we are opening in January, so. I’m gonna be pretty busy. And, we’re not staffing it full of, amazing people yet because we can’t afford to until we figure out what our revenue’s gonna look like, which means I’m working seven days a week, which means I’m gonna have less time for podcasting.And so we’ve made the decision that at least for now, for the first little bit of 2026, we’re gonna go to every two weeks.[00:30:42] Lara: Yeah, it is, quite a bit of work and both of us have other things that are pulling us in some directions, but we love it too much to give it up. We hope all of you love it enough to keep listening and to keep telling people about it.But for a little bit, we’ll go to every other week and then maybe some of you, will have time to catch up on some of the 35 episodes you haven’t gotten to yet.[00:31:04] Rowan: That’s right. I mean, and, this is not a plug, this is just a statement. We have some amazing paid subscribers right now and we’re very grateful for them.If we get more paid subscribers, then we’ll be generating. An income from this, like a real income that will allow for us to create more time for it. And so that’s usually how podcasting works, right? You sort of start at the bottom. Think there’s a guy from Toronto who sang about that at one pointand, you work your way up. This is really a passion project for us, though. I mean, in my opinion. I would keep doing this regardless, but I do have to do it a little less right now because I have to make. Some money. I really need to make some money next year. I have to prioritize that.But also I’m so excited to be building some community here in Toronto and creating a space that’s welcoming and safe for people. So that’s, something that, in my heart of hearts, at some point I am gonna be able to find some fantastic staff that will run it at least half the time for us, and I will have much more time to podcast and do all these other fun things I really like to do.[00:32:10] Lara: like the manly man You are with your podcast. That’s right. That’s right. I mean, am I even a man without a podcast? Ooh, I’m not sure.I dunno. So I think that I wanna just end by celebrating the amazing 2025 success. Of having launched this podcast and being able to have so many great discussions. Thank you to all of you who have been listening.Thank you to all of you who have supported us becoming, a paid subscriber. Thank you to everybody who shared this with other folks. We appreciate you. We can’t wait to keep having these discussions with you in 2026. And there’s lots of room for us to keep talking about lots of things because society is, still throwing all kinds of expectations at us that we are ready to shut down.[00:33:01] Rowan: I love it. You’re such a rebel. Thank you to everybody for being here with us, and I’m really looking forward to a fantastic 2026 with you.[00:33:13] Lara: Happy New Year.[00:33:14] Rowan: Happy New Year. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Hey everyone, Lara here! As someone who is not trans, I know the feeling of wanting to understand more about the trans experience, but also knowing it can be hard to know where to start, or even what questions to ask! Not to mention, the messages we’re getting online and in the news are loud, scary, and full of untruths.We were thrilled to have Erica Vogel join us on the show this week to discuss some of the misconceptions we hear about trans folks. But more than that, I think it’s an opportunity for so many of us to listen to and learn from trans voices.I believe that we all should be able to be our authentic selves, and that the world should support us in being just that. We could have chatted with Erica for hours because, as you’ll hear, she is a delight :)Erica’s bioErica Vogel is the author of Advice from Your Trans Aunty, and the occasionally published political comic Ungovernable. Erica is currently writing her second book under the working title Saving Ourselves: A roadmap for sustainable LGBTQIA progressShe has spent the majority of her life solving a wide variety of trials and tribulations as both a closeted and out transgender woman. Drawing from her experiences, her education, and her interactions with thousands of transgender people, she provides a point of view focused on personal agency as a transgender individual. Described as resilient, authentic, and fearless, she meets people where they are with grace and warmth. Erica is queer, a wife, a parent, and a member of a family with strong LGBTQIA roots. She is a frequent public speaker on trans affairs in and out of workplaces across the United States.Links:Erica’s websiteFollow her on Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, LinkedIn This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Stop me if you’ve heard this one.Your friend arrives home from work and enters a clean, organized house. She takes out fresh ingredients from the fridge and begins to prepare a homecooked meal. She then takes a picture of the finished creation in her still-tidy and organized kitchen to post on Instagram.You see it as you’re doom scrolling on the couch after work, waiting for pizza to arrive, and glance over at your disastrous apartment. Why can’t you be as put together as she is? What’s wrong with you?If this is relatable, welcome to the club. For those of us who live with executive dysfunction, chronic illness, disability or mental health, societal expectations of a perfect home, an excellent fitness regime, or peak work performance can bring about deep feelings of shame. And worse, these ideals are impossible to avoid; they’re depicted in movies, commercials, and on curated social media feeds. And if we try to bypass them, to take shortcuts to make our lives easier, that can feel like personal failure.But what if we gave ourselves and each other more grace? On this episode of Unboxing It, we tackle the concept of taking “the easy way” and make a case for it sometimes being “the only way that works.” And you know what? That’s a win. LinksEpisode 1 - On FatnessLink to Rowan’s coffee shop merch: Store — UnderstoryTranscript[00:00:00] Lara: Good enough is fine a lot of the time. And when the option is not done or good enough, good enough is definitely better than not done. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.[00:00:33] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.[00:00:34] Lara: And today we’re gonna talk about something that impacts me directly, that I’ve written about in my book. Really, it’s at the crux of my whole book, which is called It’s Not Lazy, which you know, there’s a lot of ways to talk about this, but it really is.About how it’s not a bad thing to take the easy way, the shortcut way when things are hard.[00:00:57] Rowan: Hmm.[00:00:58] Lara: And I think that as a society, that is not something that we’re taught to do. We’re taught to do things correctly. We’re taught there is a correct way to do things. We’re told that if we don’t do things the correct way, we’re lazy.And that puts so much pressure on a person to feel like they’re able to do life correctly. And oftentimes people don’t feel like they measure up. I have ADHD, so I have executive functioning issues. I don’t know, executive functioning. Difficulty sometimes where it’s hard to do things that I think are easy for other people and it’s taken me a long time to be okay with that and find ways that work for me because of that.[00:01:40] Rowan: Because you have ADHD and.Despite the fact that I definitely don’t want to mansplain your own book to you, I believe your book is called You’re Not Lazy.[00:01:51] Lara: You’re right. It is[00:01:56] Rowan: Which I think is actually hilarious because this is how we’re starting things and it just further perhaps proves the point that things like ADHD really do affect people’s brains.I don’t have ADHD myself, but for a while, for a good while, I, and the professionals that I worked with thought I did.It turned out I had a trauma disorder and that trauma disorder, because it had never been treated, which was, well, I actually had two, complex PTSD and sort of the more classic PTSD altogether. And as a result of that, an anxiety disorder, which I still have, but because the trauma. the anxiety it caused were not under control.My brain behaved very much like somebody with ADHD, I ticked all the boxes and so I can empathize very much in my own way. It is a lot easier for me to structure my day, to clean something up, to make a plan and remember the plan, and to do a lot of the things that I used to get overwhelmed by for years and years, pretty much my whole life until these issues were addressed for me.So I think this is an important thing to talk about because the shame that that creates when you. Constantly feel like you’re letting yourself down or you’re letting the people around you down because you’re not doing things the way that society tells you you are supposed to do them. To be a functioning human being in itself creates further issues and barriers to getting those things done.[00:03:43] Lara: Definitely, and I think. as you mentioned, there are other reasons that this might happen. So ADHD is one. There are things that seem very similar to ADHD. There’s chronic illness.[00:03:55] Rowan: I think autism and other sort of neuro divergent, things that people deal with, that people live with, can get in the way in various ways to doing things.The way that, I’m going to use air quotes, the average person. Would do them.[00:04:10] Lara: Yeah. Or even just having a really busy life. Imagine having, three or four kids and a full-time job and, maybe a parent that needs support or a spouse that’s away a lot. or you’re a single parent.Like, there’s so many things where it’s just too much to also do all the things exactly. Correctly. So. The point with all of this set up is that there are easier ways to do things, but they’re not always the cheapest. They’re not always the, most aesthetically pleasing there’s a lot of little things that might make it so that somebody else would say, just do it like this.And I have learned through a lot of work on myself to accept certain things and to know that it’s okay to do things differently. And I say that all while also knowing that I struggle to have people come to my house because I know it’s not necessarily going to be tidy enough for me to feel comfortable by the time they get there.But there’s a lot of little things that I think people don’t necessarily allow themselves to choose because they think they shouldn’t have to do it that way.[00:05:21] Rowan: So I think a good example of that would be something like food prep, cooking.We are taught that cooking at home is the healthiest and it is truly the most. Financially sound thing to do for the majority of us because ingredients are cheaper than prepared products overall, unless we’re talking about like really heavily processed things like, frozen pizza and that sort of thing.That can often be cheaper than buying the ingredients and making a pizza yourself. But other than that, making meals at home is sort of the standard. except that a lot of people, for various reasons, have a very difficult time making meals every single night or three times a day or whatever it might be that they feel is required of them.And so one of the. Solutions to that for a lot of people is, well, I’ll just get takeout. And we know that there can be issues with that. I mean, it, it’s expensive. It’s usually not that good for you, and if it is good for you, it’s even more expensive. Usually you’re gonna be paying a lot more, but there’s all this in between, right?There are things that you can do, like everything from. I’m gonna batch cook once a week, and then we’re just going to eat that. one thing, I’ll go in the fridge, I’ll put the other thing in the freezer. I’ll take the thing out of the freezer when the thing in the fridge runs out. Like there are things like that that can be done.There’s also meal kits. They can be expensive. But they’re not as expensive as takeout usually, and they tend to be better for you. So there’s, different ways to do it. Right.[00:06:58] Lara: We did meal kits for a while. And while they are more expensive than if you are organized enough to buy all of your ingredients on sale and use all of your ingredients before they go bad, that’s cheaper.But in the long run, it was barely more expensive, if at all, for us to do the meal kits because we only got exactly the amount we needed. We felt. Compelled to make them because we had ordered them and there was very little food waste. Whereas it’s really easy in my household to have food waste, Things disappear into the back of the fridge, into the bottom of the fridge. We have five people living in this house and the fridge is usually full and then things get lost or. You just don’t feel like making that thing. This is a thing for me a big time, which is just because on Sunday I thought I to eat that this week doesn’t mean I’m gonna want it.[00:08:00] Rowan: Or have the energy necessarily to cook it. And that’s the other thing that people struggle with. Do I love the idea of a big Sunday dinner if we’re using that as an example? Yeah, of course I do. Do I always have the energy to make one? No. And then what? Well, I’ve got all these ingredients in the fridge and now I’m not gonna make it.And then by the time I get to next week, we’ll either have to put, say the roast I was going to make in the freezer, and then remember to take it out. In time that it thaws so that I can make the meal the following week, or it just gets lost forever. it is definitely for some people easier to do meal kits.I’ve never done them, but I know plenty of people who have, and I have no issues with it, but. I do also know some people who are like, well, that’s just lazy. Like you don’t need to do that. They’re just trying to sell you a product that you don’t need. And I see that with a lot of other things too, like kitchen gadgets, where my first reaction to maybe a kitchen gadget that I don’t need is, this is useless and a waste of money and a waste of, plastic resources, whatever it might be.But there can be somebody else with a disability who really needs that jar opener or really needs that particular type of storage and this is the issue that we deal with where society seems to decide what is okay and what is not okay for everybody’s life. And then those of us who don’t do those things, who don’t measure up, if you will, and do the things correctly.I hope we all know what I’m using air quotes now because I definitely say it differently. We then often carry the shame, like I’m somehow a failure because I’m not able to keep my houses clean, or I’m not able to cook for myself as often, or I end up being late to my appointments. So there’s that aspect.And then there’s the other side of it. And this is where Nuance comes in. And I do wanna touch on this a little bit and I’d love to get your thoughts on this, Lara, because. While I completely understand from a personal standpoint and just from the people I know and love around me, that we all end up having limitations.And those limitations some of them are very set, they’re very fixed, and we cannot go beyond that. How do we not get to the point where we go, I can never improve upon this ever. And then never challenge ourselves to do better versus I have to get to this gold standard of doing things.You know what I mean? Like, I don’t think I worded that properly, but what I mean by that is I’m always going to be like this. It can never change. Or it has to change. There is no choice and it has to be at this level. Like certainly there is something in between for a lot of people because what I see sometimes is we either push ourselves way too hard to do what is frankly probably impossible for us.And then there are also people who never push themselves at all and. They use whatever their beliefs are about their own limitations as a stopping point, which is very negatively, affecting their lives, so. Where is the in-between there? Is there an in-between?[00:11:32] Lara: Yeah. It’s a really good question.So I do think that some people who are always striving for perfection end up. Really pushing themselves all the time and it becomes like a compulsive, like I need to do, I need to do, I need to do, and in some ways that might actually get them to do more of the stuff. But it’s probably very difficult.And so that’s potentially a side of things I don’t know about.[00:11:58] Rowan: Well, I, as somebody who did that for a long time, it really can negatively affect your mental health, especially if it is truly something that you will never be able to achieve.[00:12:08] Lara: Yeah. and I agree, part of this is. For many of us to give ourselves some grace and decide what is the easier way to do things.Whether it’s because you’re pushing yourself so hard, it’s killing you, or whether you have tried, but feel like you’re never gonna get it right and you feel sad about it, and then you get depressed about it and then you need to deal with it. But it’s gotten so bad that you’re. Feeling stressed out about dealing with it, right?Like it becomes a snowball. And then there are some folks who are just like, I can’t do that. End of story. and then they don’t really try to do things differently. So there’s a lot of different areas for it. But what I think is important is for the people who either are overwhelmed or they don’t think they can.Do whatever is to find the easiest ways to do things. So an example for me is, and again this is going to sound probably preposterous to somebody who just wouldn’t struggle with this, but it can be really good to have an open garbage can or an open recycling bin right out in front of you to throw things into.know that when we did our renovation, we have a bunch of recycling bins in the hallway and our designer definitely wanted to enclose them, right? Put this into like a cabinet, we’re gonna hide it away. And I said, I understand that would be aesthetically pleasing. However, if we put it into a bin and that would require us to pull it open and put something inside of it, We aren’t going to do it. And that is where the lazy thing comes in, right? Because if you don’t a difficult time doing that, it just sounds lazy to you that somebody else wouldn’t. But for some of us, myself included,it’s like theidea of doing the thing disappears when it’s not super visible. So it’s not, I am so tired, I cannot open the bin.It’s like once, it’s not like so easy and in my face, I forget that thing exists, and so I just leave it on the counter.It’s not willfully lazy, quote unquote. It is just like that thing, flit out of my head as a possibility. Do I wish that wasn’t true? A hundred percent. I would like my brain to be like, Hey Lara, why don’t you open up that drawer and put that thing away?But it doesn’t really easily do that. And the idea that for some folks, once something is put away, it’s like it doesn’t exist anymore, which is how things get lost in your fridge, right? Even though it obviously does right, is why we have open kitchen cabinets all the time.I really wanted there to be some kind of gadget that would automatically close kitchen cabinets after a certain amount of time. But when we had our reno done, they said that wasn’t really a thing, or at least it would be too expensive because I will walk into my kitchen on a regular basis and like.Seven different doors are open. So I just walk around going clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, closing them all. But I know that I’m just as likely to have left it open because just leaving things open. It’s not willfully being a jerk. It’s just like I took my thing. I didn’t think anything beyond that.And so we need to play with what works for people. And if certain things don’t work, we figure out what does work. So if it’s a food box, get a food box. If it’s an open recycling bin, it’s an open recycling bin. Another example I was thinking of is that I like to have cleaning products in every bathroom because if I wanna clean my bathroom, I usually do it on impulse.And I don’t want to go find the cleaning products. And if I have to go downstairs to find the cleaning products, it is relatively likely that between my bathroom and getting the products, I will have gotten distracted and decide to do something else instead. And so while it is not necessarily. The cheapest thing or because we don’t have the space to keep them closed up, like the nicest looking things.To have some products in every bathroom is one of our hacks to make sure that we can still clean the thing without losing steam before we get to the cleaning products.[00:16:30] Rowan: Yeah, we actually do that in our house too. We, have four bathrooms in the house, so I realized over time very difficult to get people to clean the bathrooms if it’s not really simple to do.But that’s even me because if I’m in cleaning mode, I might go, okay, I’m gonna tackle this bathroom, but then I run downstairs to the kitchen, say, to get all the products and I’m like. Oh gosh. There’s all this stuff on the counter that I need to put away. So then I start to do that, and the next thing you know, I’ve completely forgotten the upstairs bathroom.It’s just, so far from my mind. I wanna dig a little deeper into what happens over time. If you constantly feel like a failure because you are not doing things. Again, air quote time properly. You’re not cooking meals the way your mother thinks that you should cook meals. You are not exercising the way your doctor says you should be exercising.you’re not getting to your appointments 10 minutes early. Like you keep trying to what is happening over time and. Do you think that there are some mindset shifts, some things that we can tell ourselves to help with that?[00:17:46] Lara: Well, it definitely decreases our self-worth over time, right?The more that you think you messed up and to be clear, it doesn’t always require somebody to come in and tell you you messed up. It can just be yourself thinking, I am not good enough. I know I’m not doing this as well as I should. And so you start to just believe it, The more either you tell yourself or somebody else tells you that you’re not good enough at something, the more you believe that that is true.And so in terms of what to do about it, think part of it is to realize. most people may not be doing it as perfectly as you think they are, that even when you are doing things, you may feel like you’re not doing enough and then you beat yourself up. So you may start to, blow it out of proportion.So a good example for me is recently I was really getting upset about how messy something was, and other members of my family were like, yeah, it’s kind of messy. I think that what you think is happening is significantly worse than what is actually happening. And so it’s nice that I have people who can remind me of that, but it also requires me to actively decide that that’s true and be willing to accept it and internalize it and try tocut myself a break.So. I thinkthat knowing things don’t have to be perfect knowing, not everybody’s house is spick and span clean and like, I clearly think this what I’m about to say next, because I’m trying to make myself feel better. But, you know, some of the people whose houses are like perfect, like maybe they’re obsessively cleaning in a, compulsive way that’s not healthy either.[00:19:22] Rowan: Right, exactly. Because that’s the other side of that spectrum, right? Where you have people who maybe have a very difficult time cleaning and people who spend all their time cleaning. And from having been on both sides of that, I will say, we’ve talked a lot about the messy. Let’s talk a lot about the hyper clean.That was for me, unchecked anxiety and OCD, me trying to just escape from other things. Just like if I play too many video games or I look at my phone too much or whatever it might be, right? It’s like I don’t wanna sit in my thoughts, so I am going to. Pull all the furniture out once a week and clean underneath it, like that actually needs to be done.You know, as often as I was doing it, so. I do think we are all different. it is a spectrum and we’re all going to have different levels of capability. We’re also gonna have different levels of tolerance for things like mess. So I want to give lots of space to that and we keep talking about mess, but you know, it is a lot of different things.One thing that I said on Threads last night, because it really occurred to me, and it’s funny because it kind of ties into this conversation, I really wish that when I was younger, somebody had told me.Most of us have no idea what we’re doing. And, that we’re just figuring it out constantly until we die. there’s this concept that, you know, oh, that person has their s**t together. Right? Well, that’s the version of themselves that you are seeing. You are not seeing all the other things.I knew a lot of people who lived what appeared to be a very Stepford existence, right? Like the Stepford wives just very put together. because I lived as a woman for a long time. I had a lot of women friends and I knew some who, you know, thin, beautiful, went to the gym, ate really well, had handsome husbands, had very well-behaved children, had beautiful homes that were decorated and clean and, you know what happened time and time again.The minute you looked under the hood, the minute that you became friends and they started to open up. you started to realize, wow, they’ve got problems too. Their problems look different than mine. Maybe mine are more on display. Maybe they’re more obvious, but they also have issues. Maybe their marriage isn’t as perfect as it is.Maybe they have an eating disorder. Maybe they have, OCD. Maybe they. Are berating themselves constantly for not being perfect enough and are trying really, really hard to be perfect. Everything from their career, to their home, to their family, to their marriage, to their bodies, right? So that person that seems to have it all together probably doesn’t, and the people who I find have it most together.Are the ones who are really honest with themselves and the world wherever they are in that moment. Whether they’re, taking really good care of their nutrition or not. Whether their homes are sparkling, clean or messy, whether they have lots of friends or they’re struggling socially, whatever it might be, they are.Meeting themselves where they’re at. And they’re also challenging themselves, not in an unhealthy way, but that’s the other thing where I always want to honor where people are at. And also know just from a personal place. And please, if somebody disagrees with me, feel free to let me know. I do believe that life is about growth.I firmly believe that. We have to grow as people because over time we develop new skills and wisdom and perspective and experience and that I never wanna stay stuck in one place. like I’ve been exercising for over a decade now. I am constantly challenging myself to new exercise. However, I also know.I can’t run. If I run, I’m really gonna hurt my knees and my hips because I have issues there. So that’s my limitation. But I am able to do exercise in other ways that work for me, and I keep pushing that a little bit. Like today I did jumping jacks because I was like, I haven’t done jumping jacks in forever.Let’s see if I can do them. It actually wasn’t a terrible idea, but if I had gone another 30 seconds, it would’ve been because I’m almost 50. But it was cool, right? Because I was able to push myself. So I think it’s cool to try new things and to never give up on yourself. I think that’s the big thing.Don’t give up on yourself. But also don’t expect perfection. I’m never going to be a thin person. I know I’m never gonna be a thin person. I’m totally okay with that. So how I live my life When it comes to nutrition, when it comes to exercise, I’m not aiming to look like an Adonis. Like that’s not, you know, I’m not trying to be Atlas here.This is not, my goal. I never will be super muscular, really fit, but I can still exercise, in ways that work for me, I can still eat well and also indulge and not feel bad about it. So I guess that’s what I’m trying to say is like. I love myself enough to not berate myself for not achieving a goal that somebody else has achieved, but I will keep setting goals for myself and be really proud when I meet them.[00:25:08] Lara: Yeah, I think it’s about not giving up. It’s about. Not measuring yourself up against other people, but figuring out what works for you. And this is where the judgment piece is real, right? It’s not entirely imagined that people are judging certain people, and it tends to be, the judgment comes on one side of the spectrum, right?Not very many people are shaming people. And I don’t think anybody should be shamed to be clear, for being too thin or, the whole, the early bird gets the worm means that if you sleep in, you’re doing it wrong. People who get up early are the ones who do it correctly, even though you could be getting just as much done, but later in the day, like, why do we think that is worse than the other one?Like, there’s no good reason for it. So remembering that there are people. Who will say that your way of doing things is wrong without acknowledging the other side of things that is also kind of problematic and really, really believing that that is true can help you stop being so hard on yourself and allow you to think, okay.Is what I’m doing working for me. If it’s working for me, I’m just gonna keep doing, if it’s not working for me, what can I do that will work? And I think that more people who are willing to share when things have been difficult, there are certainly people online who have been sharing like, look, my house is outta control messy, but this is how I clean it up.So there’s a book that I thought of while you were talking called How to Keep House While Drowning by KC Davis.And I think she’s a really good one, right? She’s like, being messy is not a moral failing, and here are some things you can do that will help make it easier for you to recover when things aren’t working.And so. It allows you not to be like, I suck, I suck, I suck, I suck. Why don’t I just do it right? Why do I let it get like this? You’re like, okay, if it gets like this, this is what I do. This is how I deal with it. This is what I do next. I am okay. And that can take so much pressure off because the shame piece, the I’m not good enough, I’m never gonna get it right piece so heavy and it’s unfairly.Put on some people and not others.[00:27:23] Rowan: Yeah, absolutely. you rarely get someone looked down upon for going to the gym every day.You do get looked down upon if you are a larger person and you don’t go to the gym every day. Right. And so I talk a lot. Well, not a lot. I talk sometimes mm-hmm.Online about being a fit person because I am a fit person. you know, my doctor has said that I have higher blood pressure that I am medicated for and otherwise I have a resting heart rate that’s about 60 and I. Work out a lot, almost every day. And I am mindful of what I eat and I feel fantastic and I have lots of energy.I also weigh about 215 pounds. So I will have people say, well, you’re not fit. You are morbidly obese. And what you’re doing isn’t working. And if you were really healthy, you’d be a lot smaller than that. And I used to carry so much shame about that, and then I one day decided I was just gonna stop.You know? I think that was my mindset shift. I don’t know when it hit, but eventually I was just like, no, you don’t get to tell me how to feel. this is my life. It’s my body. I know exactly how much effort I’m putting into things. I know what my limitations are. I know that my life is too busy for me to be constantly training and constantly watching every calorie and macronutrient and micronutrient that goes into my mouth and that I have.All these other aspects of my life as well, and this is where I am the happiest and most successful and still able to maintain everything else in my life, and that idea can be applied to everything. How clean or messy your house is, your ratio of making meals versus ordering out the types of jobs.We do in an economy where you can pick what job you do, there’s all these different things, whether you rent or own, if that is a choice for you. And for some of us it is not. I am a renter. I think there’s all of these different things that, people who rent are often seen as lesser to people who own property. And I know a lot of people, so I used to own property. I’ve owned three homes and now I rent are there downsides to renting? Absolutely there are. You know what some of the good sides are when things break in the house. I’m not staying up all night running numbers on how much it’s gonna cost me or whether my insurance is gonna cover it or anything else.That’s my landlord’s problem. Right. That’s one of the upsides. Or if I decide that I just want to pick up and move when my lease is up, or now I month to month, I can just do that and go live somewhere else and try , another neighborhood. I don’t have to worry about putting my house on the market.So I think it is a perspective shift. I love when people have me over and their houses are not super tidy. I love that. And also I have gone over to several people’s places, people that I’m close to and when I can see, when they tell me that they are struggling with how, you know, maybe they’re struggling with their mental health.They’re feeling really overwhelmed. Maybe they’re dealing with illness or someone in their life is or whatever, and they’re having a really hard time keeping up with things. I used to clean homes for a living and I also love it and I also love to organize. So guess who spends the day cleaning up? It is one of my favorite things to do and there’s no judgment there.So if we can all just shift our perspectives a little bit to stop. looking at things like HGTV as the standard for everything and looking at influencers who look like they have their lives together, or even the people down the block who look like they have their lives together and remember that nobody has their life together.Not really. That would be so helpful for all of us.[00:31:40] Lara: And look for the easy ways, right? Even if it’s not in your head the best way or the cheapest way, what is the way that you’re going to actually do the thing and allow yourself to do that? It can mean that some of the things you feel bad about can change.And it doesn’t need to be perfect for you to stop feeling bad about it, like it really doesn’t. So allow yourself to find the easier ways to accept them as just as good or good enough. Good enough is fine a lot of the time. And when the option is not done or good enough, good enough is definitely better than not done.[00:32:20] Rowan: And be as kind to yourself as you would be to someone you love who is struggling with something. Because I think we often forget that I can be very forgiving of somebody else’s struggles. we’ve talked about this before, if I have a friend who’s chronically late, but I am much, much harder.On myself if I am late all the time, and so I just think that gentleness is the way forward. Gentleness and love is the way forward as it is with pretty much everything. But it has to start with us. So if we can just be kind to ourselves and give ourselves a break and opt out. Some of these societal expectations that are drilled into our heads that are not helping us live our best lives.The ripple effect of doing that for yourself can be immense. Yeah.[00:33:17] Lara: I also, I’ll come back to the You are Not lazy idea.[00:33:22] Rowan: The name of your book,[00:33:23] Lara: the name of my book, which is also true that some things it’s not lazy and we are not lazy. Also true. Anytime you think either you are being lazy or somebody else is being lazy, if that word pops into your head, ask yourself what probably is actually going on?Are they overwhelmed? Are they feeling frozen? Are they trying to deal with something else? Are they simply just not engaged? Right? Like lazy itself is not really thing. So what is the underlying thing? So anytime you catch yourself telling yourself you’re lazy or somebody else is being lazy, I want you to see if you can think about what actually is the underlying thing and.It just helps you have such a different perspective on yourself and other people.[00:34:09] Rowan: I love that. I love that. Lazy is not a thing it’s often overwhelm or a need to rest or something else happening, but it’s not a moral failing ever. It’s never a moral failing.[00:34:26] Lara: This has been a good conversation and I do think.We’ll link to our very first episode on fatness because that was our very first one, so we’ll definitely link to that. If you’re new to the show, you should have a listen.[00:34:36] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. I have really loved chatting about this.[00:34:40] Lara: Me too. I can talk about it anytime.Everybody have a great week and we will be back soon. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Oh, do we have a big feelings about this week’s topic.In 2024, Cambridge Dictionary named “manifest” their Word of the Year, and with good reason. The idea of manifesting your dream life has risen from an obscure idea to a cultural movement, taking over board rooms and living rooms alike.But is it a useful tool, or are we being sold snake oil?Manifestation isn’t a new concept. Its roots are firmly planted in the ancient world, including civilizations in Greece, Egypt and India. Today, some social media influencers claim their lives have changed largely by willing those changes into existence—thinking positively and using the “law of attraction,” for example. Some of the more spiritual influencers go even further, believing they switched timelines and/or universes to make this happen. And a quick online search will provide a list of “Manifestation Coaches” who provide services such as “frequency tune-ups” and “energetic calibration.”With backgrounds in life and business coaching, Lara and Rowan have mixed feelings about the idea of manifestation, and tackle its cultural renaissance in this week’s episode. Is it really as magical as people claim? Is it just a money grab to hook folks desperate for change? Or is there a more nuanced and practical approach to manifesting a life we love?As always, we’d love to hear your thoughts on this one. Leave us a comment or get in touch. And, as always, thanks for listening!Links:Link to Rowan’s coffee shop merch: Store — Understory Transcript:Please note, these are auto-generated and not carefully edited so there are likely errors.[00:00:00] Lara: when you believe in things, when you assume they’re gonna happen, when you are confident that they’re gonna work out. You see opportunities in front of you.[00:00:32] Rowan: Hello and welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.[00:00:37] Lara: And I’m Lara.[00:00:38] Rowan: And we are talking about something today that kind of gets under my skin. I feel like half the people are gonna turn this off as soon as I say this because either they’re gonna be like, I don’t want to talk about this at all. Or they’re gonna be like, I don’t want you disparaging this word, but I’m just gonna say it.I wanna talk about manifestation. The idea that you can manifest like will into existence a beautiful life or a successful career, or a great relationship or whatever it might be. It is something that a lot of people have been talking about over the last decade or so. Manifested, manifested, manifested. I have issues with it.Lara. I do.[00:01:21] Lara: Yeah, it’s a complicated word. I think that like many words, it is nuanced. It is got a lot of extremes in the way that people see it. Some people hate it, some people love it. Some people believe in it. Some people think it’s hooey[00:01:39] Rowan: full of woowoo, if you will.[00:01:40] Lara: Yeah. Full of woowoo. And I think that I am a little bit somewhere in the middle for a mix of reasons that I look forward to getting into.[00:01:50] Rowan: Yeah. And I wanna say I’m not against the idea. There’s a lot of stories that are told around it and circumstances that I see in the people’s lives who firmly believe in this, that need to be challenged a little bit, in my opinion. And so. I wanna start with that, that I, have an open mind when it comes to this stuff.I think it might be important to talk about our own experiences with the idea of manifestation, we first heard about it, what we thought about it. Has that changed? What about you?[00:02:26] Lara: I feel like I’ve been in the world of coaching, which has a lot of people who might bring that up a little bit more than in other areas, so I’ve definitely been quite, exposed to it.I think that’s probably where, I don’t even know where I first started hearing about it, but it’s gotten louder and louder as messaging over the last while for sure.[00:02:50] Rowan: Yeah. I think the idea of it, even if manifesting wasn’t quite how it was put, was when Oprah started talking about the secret.Remember thebook, the Secret and a lot of the secret is essentially about manifestation.That you have to believe it, you have to really embody it. You have to welcome it into your life. And if you don’t do that, it’s not gonna happen. But if you do do that. It will happen. , I read the Secret ages ago, so I know I’m missing some of the context here, but that was the idea. I used to watch Oprah on repeat, honestly, I watched her almost every day, and so when she was really big into this, this is when I first heard about it, but I remember thinking.Even back then, I was somebody who had become a parent very young. I had lived on the street, I had been on social assistance. I had gone to food banks. I had been to rehab. I had had a lot of really terrible things happen to me when I was younger and I was now in a place where. I certainly wasn’t wealthy, but I was more comfortable, you know, I was able to buy a home quite young.I think we were like the last generation to be able to do that. I bought a home at 22 with my ex, and we could pay our bills and. Some of that I think was the belief that I was not going to be stuck there my whole life. That there was a way out and keeping that hope alive, certainly to rise above those circumstances, if you will.But that was just a tiny fraction that I think allowed me to. Not lose hope entirely. But a lot of it was also just circumstances. My partner, was in high tech and high tech was booming. So she was able to get a job that paid our bills and we were able to very quickly go from living well below the poverty line to above the poverty line.And that was great, but a lot of that was just her skillset. We bought a home because we got really lucky there and we were able to buy a home right before the.com boom. And when houses exploded in Ottawa, where I used to live and where you currently live. And that home would’ve been unaffordable to us even a couple of years later.So I think hope and believing that. Things are possible is great, but there are other things like privilege that come into this. And I know I bring up privilege a lot and people are probably sick of me talking about it, but it is a really important thing to acknowledge. It’s not a thing to feel guilty over.but it is a thing to recognize. And I do think that a lot of the people who preach the idea of manifestation equally in success are people who are in situations that weren’t super challenging to begin with. Like having a solid foundation, having money in the bank, or having a partner who can support your dreams if you’re starting a small business, or having parents who can help you with childcare if you’re trying to get something off the ground or going back to school.I mean, there’s lots of ways where there shows up , you know, , having, lighter skin, having English as a first language can be really beneficial in many parts of the world. I mean, being able bodied, et cetera, et cetera. Lots of ways where who you are, not just how your thinking can help achieve success.[00:06:21] Lara: Yeah, so I think we should always be reminding people about privilege. I imagine quite a few of the people who listen to this podcast we might be preaching to the choir, but maybe not with everybody. And, I think that. Understanding privilege and acknowledging it is important. And it’s not about guilt.It’s not about having done something wrong. It’s just about acknowledging the fact that we’re not all starting from the same place and that makes a difference. It just does. And with manifestation. I think you’re right that there’s a lot of privilege involved, but I do think it’s also a lot of mindset, right?It is this word that is presented as sort of this spiritual kind of woowoo thing. But I do think that it is concretely also about our own mindset, and that is not woowoo. That’s just. Our brains, and we can jump more into that. But I do think it encompasses a lot of different things. And some of it is this idea of manifestation as like I can, achieve something that I never could have if I hadn’t gone through this process versus manifestation as a way of.Really figuring out what needs to happen in order to achieve your goals. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s not necessarily that I had a magic wand that I waved around and now I have millions of dollars. It’s about, okay, if I wanna manifest this in my life, what do I need to do to make it happen? And to figure out what that process is and to know that.You need to be a part of that. It’s not simply throwing it up into the air and seeing what comes back at you. while you were first talking, I wanted to figure out what is the actual definition of manifestation?The dictionary doesn’t say anything like what I thought it was going to. So manifestation an event action or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.Like, okay, , and the symptom or sign of an ailment, a characteristic manifestation of Lyme disease. Like, so some of this, like by the definition that I’m seeing online. It’s kind of like, okay, when something happens that shows something that you thought would ha like, I mean, I don’t even know. Like it’s justkind of like, yeah, this is that thing.[00:08:44] Rowan: Huh. That’s interesting.[00:08:47] Lara: I mean, I think how it’s being used is if you have a theory of what is to happen. It can be manifestedby wanting it, but the actual wordmanifestation doesn’t seem to have any of the magical out of nowhereness that people seem to think when they talk about it now.[00:09:05] Rowan: I mean, obviously that example when they said Lyme disease, it manifests in the body this way.Yes, of course. that’s still in use. But manifesting a goal into existence, a dream into existence, a lifestyle into existence, that very much seems to have a spiritual component for a lot of people. And look. I’m a very spiritual person. I don’t talk about it much, but I firmly believe that there’s something greater than the life that I am living right now.I don’t think this is the first time I’ve lived a life and I don’t think it’s going to be the last time I live a life. I think reincarnation is quite plausible. I’m fascinated by near death experiences. I think there’s a whole lot we don’t know that may or may not be explained later, and so. You’re not gonna catch me going.I don’t believe anything that science can’t prove. and in fact, there is an element of science that would support the idea of manifestation. They have shown that when people are undergoing cancer treatments, if they have a positive belief that they’re going to get through it, they tend to recover better.Like they tend to do better. Symptomatically when they’re going through things like chemo and radiation, they tend to have fewer bad days overall. I don’t know if it actually affects the outcomes, but it certainly does affect how they get through it. You also have a lot of science behind placebo drugs and how if you tell somebody that you are giving them is not a sugar pill, it is in fact something that’s going to make them better.Quite often the placebo will do just as well. And I think every once in a while, even better than the drug itself, because the power of belief for whatever reason, does have some effect on us. The brain is a very powerful thing and the brain controls the nervous system and that goes throughout our entire body.So yes, I am in full agreement that having an attitude of frankly getting out of your own way. And helping yourself achieve something. Can absolutely happen, but I don’t think that just thinking it’s going to happen somehow magically rearranges the universe. Because if you get into it, and I’ve gotten into it, like I said, pretty spiritual person.YouTube will take me down these paths sometimes, and I’m fascinated by them. And one of the things that I saw one day was that if you just manifest something. You’ll jump timelines and suddenly you’ll be in a different timeline where these things will come true. Now, do I think that there’s a possibility that there are multiple timelines?Sure. I mean, why not? Do I think that if I just believe. That I’m going to have millions of dollars. I will suddenly jump timelines into one where I come into millions of dollars. No, I don’t believe that. And maybe years down the road when we figure out, you know, different types of science. That will be proven wrong.Be like, yeah, Rowan was wrong this whole time. They’ll dig me outta the archives and play this and go see that guy. He was totally wrong about this. Like, okay, fine. But there can be a form of manipulation. I find when people use manifesting, they’re often trying to sell you something.Trying to sell you their services or a book that they’ve written or something that. They want you to believe that if you just think this way, you’re gonna get the life of your dreams. And if that were the case, wouldn’t so many more people have the life of their dreams. I would argue that there are even a lot of people who seem to have a dreamy life.Who are not happy in it. just, from the outside it looks really good. So, I don’t know. This is where I think that nuance comes in, but also where I get really, really frustrated with that side of things.[00:13:07] Lara: I think the dangerous part when it comes to discussions about manifestations. Is that people can get in trouble, right?They can do things because they put their full belief in the fact that certain outcomes are going to arrive for them, and then they maybe dig themselves into holes. They spend money they shouldn’t spend, they don’t take actions they should take. People are reinforcing these behaviors that are detrimental to them in the long run.Like I think that’s where some of the danger with manifestation comes in. I do think that strong belief that something is possible leads to confidence, leads to being able to achieve certain things, and I think that. A lot of people don’t really believe in themselves. They don’t really have confidence in themselves.So they could say, that they want something, but they don’t really believe it. And that’s where I think this, the secret manifestation, like I think that’s where things can work, is the more you truly believe something is possible, the more likely you are to. Do the things that need to happen to achieve that goal, the more likely you are to convey to the world that you are the kind of person that that thing would happen for all of the blocks just fall into place.Because you really seem confident enough for it. And when you timidly tell people something they may not feel very confident in you, it might not turn out. And I think that’s really important. I have had a lot of belief in my life that certain things are possible, and the more I believe in it, the more likely it is to happen.That being said. There are a limited amount of things that I feel that confident about, right.[00:14:56] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. I’ll use my own life as an example here again, but, um, yeah,[00:15:03] Lara: strange. We’ve never done that before.[00:15:06] Rowan: Rowan talk about himself, when does that ever happen? The guy who wrote two memoirs?Okay. Um, I’ve let it be known many times. my partner Dani and I are opening a cafe, and that has been a huge leap of faith. Because we have taken this big, big risk. We took on a big loan, like all of these things to make this happen. It is really hard, really stressful.I was just telling you before we started recording how tired I am right now. We’re not even open yet. We’re in the build phase right now, but. I have had full belief in this project since I first brought it up to her. It was the day after she lost her job. She was let go from her job, end of March of this year.And I gave her a day to kind of just feel terrible. I think it was the day after that, you know, I said, you know, that dream we’ve always had of opening a coffee shop, I think we should do it. And I’m so glad she went for it, but. It’s one thing to want something. It’s another thing.To put the work in to make it happen. And there is a ton of work that goes into opening a brick and mortar business more than I ever realized before. And you have to be up for every challenge. And you have to expect unexpected things all the time. Example, later we are going for a walkthrough of the space as they are in the middle of demolishing it and rebuilding it because they found some.Quote unquote surprises That they wanna show us, right? So like, this is just how it is. And I could have just never taken this plunge. We could have just gone and, you know, got other jobs and,in a way played it safe. If you wanna call it that, I don’t know if it would’ve been safe.The economy’s weird. I mean, there’s lots of things you could talk about here, but I think risking everything to open up a business is not the safe option. But that confidence that I had in this idea, the confidence I have in Dani, the confidence I have in myself to make this work. The confidence she has and the years of experience that we have cultivated over time that have all gone into this, I think is gonna make it a success.I wouldn’t call that manifesting in the spiritual sense, but I do think there has been a component of spirituality because I regularly check in with myself and I go, Hey, uh, gut feelings, how are we doing today? And every time I ask. My gut just says, yeah, Rowan, you’re on the right path right now.This is what you’re supposed to be doing and everything’s gonna be okay. And that reassures me. So is it manifestation? I don’t know. What do you think?[00:17:47] Lara: Well, that’s where I think it’s just a word that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. And while some spirituality, some unknowns of the universe may be coming into play, it’s mostly about.You, right. It’s not like I’m gonna manifest winning the lottery. I’m gonna manifest that. I am going to have a career. I’m gonna open a coffee shop. It’s gonna be successful. But then you’re gonna take the steps needed to do that. You’re not just like, let’s see how this happens.[00:18:17] Rowan: Can you imagine[00:18:18] Lara: like there’s a lot of steps involved and there’s a lot of opportunities, so this is another part where I think our brains can play tricks on us, and the more pessimistic we are, the more anxious we are.The more we don’t believe something can happen, the more likely we aren’t able to see. The opportunities. And that’s true. I mean, not just opportunities. You know, the more anxious you are, the less likely you are to be able to find something when you’re looking for it. You know, like when you’re frantically running around your house trying to find something and you just cannot see it anywhere.But then somebody else might come in or you’ve calmed down a little bit and it’s like, oh, it was literally sitting on the table by the front door.[00:19:05] Rowan: Yep.[00:19:05] Lara: And it is this state of panic or anxiety or like I said, not believing something is possible that can have your brain not see things that are in front of you.So when you believe in things, when you assume they’re gonna happen, when you are confident that they’re gonna work out. You see opportunities in front of you. You see how this little thing that isn’t exactly what you would’ve wanted, but that might lead you to something else has appeared. And so you’re like, oh, I’m gonna do that because that’s related to what I want.And you take opportunities, you say yes to more things, you go out and talk to more people. And that translates into things working out. And if you shut everything down and you feel really scared all the time, it’s harder to then move forward. So that’s where I think mindset is such a huge part of this.And if the word manifestation is the thing that’s gonna help you find the confidence to take the action you want to create the life you want, do it, use it, have it. I love it. I just think that it is this mix of, don’t assume the universe is about to hand you everything you wanted on a platterbecause you wrote it down.It does. Involve a bit morethan that. So, I wrote a bit about manifestation in my book, but it really is about believing in yourself. It’s the more you believe in yourself, the more likely you are to have things work out. And I’ve seen that in my own life and I’ve seen it with people that I work with.The more unsure and scared you are, the less likely something is to work. And that’s not magic. That’s how that impacts what you do and how you do it.[00:20:50] Rowan: I think the other thing that can really impact it, speaking from experience is going through life with a victim mentality.And that kind of negativity where you know, if you’ve decided, I am the victim of my circumstances and I will never get ahead.And I will never be able to achieve my dreams and the world is stacked against me. That is pretty much a guarantee that you’re never gonna move forward. And again, I’m not saying privilege doesn’t play a factor. I would be the last person to say that. But what I am saying is, you know, I didn’t have a high school education growing up.I lived below the poverty line. I used to panhandle. I Was pregnant at 19. For people who don’t know, I’m a trans man. So before I transitioned, I gave birth to three children and adopted a fourth. And, all of these things were stacked against me.I watched people I went to school with, go on to get, a bachelor’s and then a master’s and some of them even PhDs, and go get these high-end jobs and do really well. and I remember thinking to myself, I was really fortunate to have a partner who did well in tech because without her.Where would I be? I would be living paycheck to paycheck, if I even had a paycheck. So I definitely am not saying that circumstances don’t play a role, but I also think as somebody who used to have a really big victim mentality when I was growing up into my early twenties, that that heavily skewed me.Against being able to have any kind of a life that I wanted, it is really easy to write yourself off completely, and I just don’t wanna see people do that. So if we look at manifestation as a mindset shift, I think we can also, if we wanna bring a little bit of spirituality into it, but also a little bit of science.There’s also an energy component there, right? Like we are energetic beings, we know that we’re made of energy, and our energy goes back to the earth when we die. and it gets recycled. And we know that that’s just a universal truth. Like energy is energy, but . I also think that the energy that I put out in the world is something that will often get reflected back to me.I try to be a really kind person. Uh, try to be really kind. Sounds like I’m not actually kind, even when I’m having a bad day, I try never to take that out on anybody, right? I don’t scowl at people. I smile and ask, the server, how their day is. Like, I talk to the checkout clerk. always try to do these things because I think thatcirculating that positive energy does some good for everyone, including myself. So yeah, I think that if you believe in yourself and you really want something, the energy that you put out into the world is going to make it easier for that to happen. Recognizing opportunities. Yes, but also creating the connections that you need to make that happen.The genuine connections, right. Of other people. Those, friendships or,business connections or whatever it might be that lead you to a better place. So, yeah. I’m all for the idea that we can make things happen just realistically.[00:24:24] Lara: I think the victim mentality is a huge one because thenyou’re not empowered. It’s hard to do much, and so when we shift away from believing life is happening to you and start to believe that you can create things, that you have the ability to make all kinds of things happen, that helps you. Decide what action you can take that will help you get there.And I think we’re very much on the same page here in terms of what manifestation can ultimately be. And we don’t want anybody to think, well, like Don’t do the journaling and don’t do the manifesting, like do it because that’s where you can figure out what you want and how you can do it, and how it will happen, and how you have the ability to make it happen.And that’s where I think the magic comes from.[00:25:16] Rowan: So what do you want people to know about manifestation? Like, are we poo-pooing it? Are we embracing it?What’s your big takeaway here?[00:25:25] Lara: I want people to know that dreaming big is worthwhile. I think I want people to know that there are so many things that you’re capable of doing and of having and of creating, and it is absolutely worth believing in that. And. That the more you figure out how you have a role in creating that once you believe in it, the more likely those things are to happen, and that absolutely is manifesting something.It’s just making sure we don’t get stuck in some of the ideas that I’ve seen that really leave it up to. The universe to deliver things that aren’t really a thing. Most people get delivered.[00:26:16] Rowan:Yeah. I think what I want people to know is that there two things here. There are the things we can control, which are very limited. And there are the things we can’t control. There are situations in our control, like how I approach situations, how well I research a dream, how much I plan.Maybe I’m able to take courses on whatever it is I want to do. Maybe I do a lot of journaling and really flesh out my dreams, and there are things we can’t necessarily control. If I have to work three jobs to be able to pay my rent gives me a lot less time, to create that dream if I don’t have savings.I might not be able to do what I wanna do right now, and that might take a little longer. so going into everything with hope and passion for a project, because the more that we believe in something, I think is something that you said, the more we believe in it, the more dedicated we are to make it happen.And I don’t want anyone to think, well, that’s it. I can never do this thing that I want to do. I think a lot of the successes that we’ve seen in the world, big ideas come to life whereby people who refuse to take no for an answer. They’re like, no, if I have to work really hard, if I have to start this business in my garage, if I have to move back home with my parents, if I have to sell my car, if I have to.Eat ramen. If I, you know, whatever it is to make this happen, I’m gonna make it happen. if my friends think I am crazy for doing this, I’m gonna do it anyway. ‘cause I really believe in this dream and I think that’s actually beautiful and I love to hear success stories like that. So I just don’t want people to throw their hands up and go, it’s okay.The universe will provide everything for me or if I buy this program from someone, they’ll teach me how to manifest something with little to no effort. I don’t want to see that because I think sometimes people are being taken advantage of. So the term manifest and the idea of manifestation, they’re not bad.I think they just need a little bit of refinement and a little bit more reality sometimes.[00:28:38] Lara: And we’re all. Capable of a lot of things and big things and of continuing to grow as people and to have things in life that you never thought would happen. Like all of that is possible. Certainly, like you said, circumstances and reality are part of it.That doesn’t mean you can’t figure out what are the right steps to do. There’s a lot of things you can do that aren’t gonna help you, and there are a lot of things you can do that will help you. And so it’s just a little bit about being intentional. I really think confidence is a huge one wonderful things can happen.But I agree there are people out there who want to charge you $25,000 to teach you how to do it, and that is probably not the ideal way to go.[00:29:22] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. You know, though this conversation has helped me feel better about the term, I think I’ve shifted my own mindset.With us talking about this and been like, okay, when I think about manifesting, I’m going to think about it.In a way that feels better to me, that feels more realistic. And I hope that if there was anybody else that was listening today. They also take that away. I hope that you did, and maybe you’re really mad at me for bringing up that manifestation is not pure magic. That’s okay too. Uh, you tell me.I will not be offended. Believe me. All you have to do is go to my Threads account and read some of the things that people say to me when I don’t ask them for feedback, and you’ll see that I can handle just about anything that comes my way. But I am gonna try and manifest some more positive interactions.[00:30:20] Lara: Yeah, and I think we should all manifest some wonderful things for 2026. I do not really love the idea of New Year’s resolutions, but I do love the idea of spending time with yourself, thinking about what you want, why you want it. And what you’re gonna do to get there and I do think this is the time of year that a lot of people find even the time to do that after the big holiday stuff has happened.And just like with September or whenever school starts where you are like, I find there’s that renewed energy. We have that in January. And so manifest the heck outta 2026 everybody.[00:30:58] Rowan: Absolutely. And please manifest. No more big surprises for Rowan and his coffee shop, please, and thank you. If you have that magic power, could you please send some my way because I would really like everything else to go off without a hitch.Like, just completely fine. Now. Anyway, that’s, my personal manifestation is begging listeners to help.[00:31:26] Lara: Yes, and Rowan has links to merch for his new coffee shop, and that helps by supporting him in his dream. So by putting that out there and me sharing that with you, maybe you go and support his coffee shop, and that helps make all of it more doable.See, oh, it’s a little bit of, here’s my magic wand and here’s the action we’re gonna take. That can actually help.[00:31:49] Rowan: Wow. I didn’t never even thought about that. I didn’t even think to pl ug the merch. that’s, really nice of you. Thank you. See, sometimes the universe provides and they provide in a really awesome co-host.Thank you so much for joining us today. Please let us know what you thought of this episode. We love to hear from you and we hope that you’ll stick around. To engage with us some more and listen some more.[00:32:11] Lara: Thank you for being here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

“Don’t share how much credit card debt you have.”“Never tell anyone how much you make.”“Don’t tell a soul what you paid for that.”“Never discuss how much you charge per hour.”Most of us were taught never to discuss money in polite company. It’s considered braggy to tell others about our financial successes and a failure to admit how much debt we carry. Lost you job? Don’t tell anyone if you want to save your pride. And certainly never discuss raises with your coworkers.If “money makes the world go ‘round” then why is it such a taboo topic? On this episode of Unboxing it, Lara and Rowan challenge the idea that finances should be kept personal and share the ways this belief harms most of us while benefiting those at the top. LinksLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscriptPlease note that these were autogenerated and not edited for accuracy.[00:00:00] Rowan: We have people who work three different jobs and can’t afford rent. So I mean, yeah. It is not, this whole idea of hard work will be a reward. You just have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and that’s b******t. It just is. That is not true. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.And I am Rowan,[00:00:43] Lara: and today we’re gonna talk about a hot topic and it’s money because when it comes to money, there are so many ways that we can feel. Weird, or we can feel like something’s not working, or we can feel like we need to keep things really hush hush. There’s so many things about money, whether it’s scarcity and fear that you don’t have any, whether it’s, you know, belief that abundance is something you already have or that you want it to come to you.Like there’s so many different things that we can talk about when it comes to money, and most of the time we don’t. Talk about it. We just feel like it has to be like, we don’t talk about money. So that’s what we’re gonna talk about today.[00:01:31] Rowan: It’s funny because I’m the one who suggested this topic. Lara is, much better at leading this discussion than I am, and I’ll get into that a little bit.But even though I suggested it as soon as you said. We’re gonna talk about money. I made a face and a noise, like it was this uncomfortable, like, ugh. You know? And, that’s because that is what I have been taught. Money is a taboo subject. You just don’t discuss it because you might offend someone. You might come across as vain, or you might come across as a failure.And everything in between. Somebody might think you place too much importance on it. Somebody might think that you don’t place enough. It is a very, very tricky topic, but not talking about it also hurts us. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation, even though I made the eugh face.[00:02:30] Lara: Yeah, I think, even, one of the reasons that we think we’re not supposed to talk about it is because we were told we’re not supposed to talk about it. Like, not necessarily that anybody explained why. Right. You’re just like, you’re not supposed to talk about that.[00:02:42] Rowan: Yeah. I’m trying to think of what the exact reason was, and I think the idea that I got when I was growing up was, if you talk about it.Normally you would only wanna talk about it if things are going well for you financially, and when you share that, it could come across as bragging and make somebody else feel bad for not having as much as you. I think that’s sort of the general idea that I got, even though it wasn’t explicitly said like that.[00:03:16] Lara: Yeah, I think there’s a bit of that. And the other one for me that I think really surrounds it is you don’t want people knowing your business.[00:03:23] Rowan: Yeah, yeah. You don’t want people knowing your business. The other thing I’m gonna go back to my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, they were wonderful people.They both grew up really poor, in their respective families of origin, and when they got together, they were also very poor. My understanding was, they were poor for a while. , I think they bought their first home when they were in their fifties, which, you know, back then is, surprising.A lot of people, if they were going to buy a home, bought it much sooner than that, to look at them outwardly. Even in those old photos from before I was born, you would never know that they didn’t have anything you would never know. And my grandmother, who I absolutely adored and was very, very close to.Was also really big on appearance. Her whole thing was class and money are two separate things. So you can have class, you can be a classy person and not be a rich person, and I appreciate that. First of all, I think that’s actually a kind of a good lesson, but I think the undertone of that was. You should always look like you have money and you should talk, like you have money, you should speak, like you have money, you should behave like you have money.Your table manner should be like, you come from money. And so if you talk about how much money you actually make in that situation, well then you’re gonna give it away and people are going to realize you’re poor. You definitely don’t want that. So I think that was the other side of the coin that I learned, you know, just in passing.Having spent a lot of time with my grandparents,[00:05:03] Lara: yeah, there’s a lot of shame around not having money. And so, I mean, that’s where the whole keeping up with the Joneses sort of thing came from. Right? You have to make sure that people think you’re doing okay, that you would never want somebody to think you weren’t doing well because that is shameful.so this is where I wanna put in the little. Caveat. We are not money mindset experts. There are many money mindset experts out there. I have worked with money mindset experts. I think they’re great. We are not that, but we have some experience and we’re just gonna talk about it. But I just wanted to make that clear from the get go.we know we’re not money mindset experts.[00:05:43] Rowan: I am definitely not a money mindset expert. I think now is a great time to share what just happened to me yesterday. Which led to this conversation and we can kind of go from there. I do a lot of meditation and yesterday I decided to challenge myself and do a meditation that I found the least comfortable or interesting.So I found one on abundance and it was specifically about financial abundance, and my first thought was gross. Gross. that’s my own story that I’m telling myself, right? That trying to attract any kind of financial success is bad. So let’s remember that going forward. And this particular meditation was about half an hour long, and it really has, you kind of go into this place where you’re talking to your inner child, you greet your inner child, and you talk to them about what they have been taught about money and the stories they tell themselves around it.This half hour meditation did not last half an hour. Within about 10 minutes, I was sobbing on the couch, completely surprised by it. I might add, I had no idea how painful it would be to think about how I view money in relation to myself and to think about how my younger self. Learned about money and what that meant for him.It was transformative. I still don’t know exactly how, but I do know how trauma works. I wrote a whole book on it, and I know that in these situations you hit a trigger, you hit a trauma point, and there’s a release as you let go. Of that old wound, that old trauma that was stuck in there. And then make no mistake, that was a trauma that was stuck in there that had to do with money around scarcity, around not being enough about not ever deserving to make a decent amount of money.there were all these different things that were going on. I know that over time, because I did that, my brain is going to rewire, hopefully in a much healthier way, which is good because I’m about to open a business and I, certainly am going to need to have a healthy mindset around making money. I’m going to need to make.Money to not only pay myself and my partner, but also our staff and keep the lights on. It’s very, very important that I have a healthy mindset around it, which is part of why I challenged myself and did the thing that made me feel, ugh. But I am left with so many questions around. How society got so mixed up when it comes to money and the whole nuanced conversation around it.Because I’m the first person to say, I don’t think we should have billionaires. I think billionaires are a really big red flag. When it comes to an unhealthy capitalist society, and I also think capitalism can be really harmful, and I think that, you know, I want to see people have a basic income, like I believe in all of these things.And at the same time, I live in a capitalist society and I need to make money, and I would like to be able to do that without feeling terrible about myself. So it’s all very complex.[00:09:24] Lara: It is extremely I think it’s like calling it late stage capitalism, right? Like we are at this place where things are kind of breaking down, in my opinion.Maybe I’ll back up a little bit. So I’ve been a coach for, 15 years. I’ve been a business coach for almost 10. And in the coaching world, there was a lot of push. For coaches to dream big you know, you wanna have your six figure business, but within a few years it became your seven figure business.Like you need to have your seven figure business. How are you gonna have your seven figure business? You need to dream big, you need to go for,, all that’s possible. And I really struggled with it. I was like, I don’t wanna have a seven figure business part of it. Could be that it felt like a seven figure business would be overwhelming.Too much work than I had the capacity for.And part of it is just like, I don’t think I need that.I don’t want that. And again, right, like the justifications are many. It could be, well, if you have a seven figure business, then you can hire people, you can put more money back into the economy, blah, blah, blah. It just didn’t feel good to me anymore.And as a result, focusing on money so much is something that a business coach is Mostly meant to be doing, and I was like less and less interested in doing that, which is why I’m stepping back a little bit from business coaching. I am still happy to coach folks who are looking to feel aligned.They’re looking to find their opportunities, they’re looking to figure out that they can make money, and That’s the difference, right? When we talk about. The different levels of money, mindset and how people feel comfortable or they don’t feel comfortable. I mostly end up coaching folks who struggle to believe that they can make a good income, but they’re not looking for seven figures.They’re looking to make a good and decent and comfortable amount of money, and they struggle to take the steps needed. To get there. I love helping people get through the money mindset bits that are not feeling comfortable, charging enough, not feeling comfortable earning money. But when it comes to like, how can I make as much money as possible?Bigger, bigger, bigger that’s not where I like to go. but I think that a lot of our society, the capitalist society has taught us that our value comes from how much we earn. And so. If we don’t earn money, we feel badly. And that’s certainly somewhere that I have been in different stages in my career.in my head, in my heart also, I feel like I know I could earn more money than I do, but I choose to do different things, whether it’s supporting my family, whether it’s passion projects, so on and so forth. But then am I letting down? And I don’t know who I think I’m letting down in this scenario that I’m not earning my earning potential.I’m letting myself down. again, coming back to shame, right? Like, it’ll come and it’ll sort of creep in on me and I’ll feel terrible about myself because I know I could be earning more money than I am. So why aren’t I? And it takes a lot of work. That I’m still working on to be okay with the choices I’ve made and to understand that my situation is based on choice.That being said, there’s a lot of people who are in situations not based on choice I’m not saying that that one does deserve to be shameful, but I’m just saying walking through all the different mindsets we have and figuring out why we’re feeling stuck, or why we’re feeling bad, or why we’re feeling good.There’s work there to talk about it and to understand what’s going on.[00:12:56] Rowan: Yeah,I do think inequality can really weigh on some of us when it comes to making money. I am a bit of an anomaly in that when I was a teenager. I lived in shelters for a time and I couch surfed and I, collected social assistance and I went to food banks and I panhandled.I also didn’t get a high school education until I was in my thirties. I mean, it just kind of goes on from there, right? So statistically, I should not be where I am today. Not that I’m saying that I’m doing really, really well, I would say that I am doing a lot better than expected and there’s a bit of survivor’s guilt that comes with that. I think that plays in knowing that a lot of the people that I knew back.In those days are either not alive anymore or are still in really rough situations.And that there was privilege and, some good fortune in my life to be able to not be in that situation anymore. And that’s taught me, I think two things. One is that guilt of, well, I’m already doing better than.I really should be, should in air quotes here. And so why would I wanna do better than that? And the other thing is I know what it’s like not to have anything, and I’m terrified of losing what I already have. So if I build things up even more than I am right now, if I become. More financially stable.If I have a successful, thriving business, you know, whatever it might be, that I could lose it all. And if I lose it all, just the idea of thatis terrifying because I know what that feels like. Yeah.[00:14:52] Lara: Again, we’re coming back from all these different levels, and directions that people come from.I also. think that universal basic income is something that we should have, right? I think that that would be a really good thing for our society,and I think that if everybody was a bit more openabout money, we would understand it works better. There are some people who never want to look at their money because looking at it is the scariest part, right?Mm-hmm. So whether they’re, racking up huge amounts of debt and they never wanna look at it, or they’re fine, but they never wanna look at it because no matter what direction they’re coming at. They think it’s gonna be terrible if they look at it. So they don’t wanna look at it. And I have talked to people who, when they looked at the numbers, everything was okay, but they had lived in this, feeling of fear for years that things weren’t okay and therefore they couldn’t look too closely at it, or their anxiety would go even higher.But actually. Understanding the numbers, looking at the numbers, being clear on what’s true helps you figure out how to move forward. And, hiding from it is never the right choice. I don’t think[00:16:07] Rowan: we hide it from ourselves because we’re so busy also hiding it from everybody else. There is starting to be some workplace transparency.When it comes to salaries, which I think is really healthy because I don’t think that one person. Should be earning significantly more than another person for doing the exact same job, unless there is a damn fine reason for that. And a lot of times there isn’t. It’s just what the person negotiated at the beginning and then their raises throughout and that sort of thing, and we’re all encouraged in the workplace.Do not talk about how much you make with your coworkers, which frankly only benefits the people at the top who are. Administrating these salaries who are deciding what these salaries are and who are collecting their bonuses at the end of the year and that sort of thing. Right. I think it’s really important that people talk about it.I also think it’s really important that we talk about debt, that we don’t try to hide debt because you see people. Who live in these big beautiful houses and drive really nice vehicles and go on beautiful vacations and, it’s easy to ask yourself, why don’t I have that? how are they doing so much better than me?Sometimes they’re not. Sometimes they are barely paying their credit card or line of credit interest, let alone anything else but. Because they see everybody else doing it in their bubble. They think to themselves, well, I have to live like that too. Otherwise, I am failing myself. I’m failing my partner, I’m failing my kids.I’m just failing at life. Clearly., If my neighbors can afford that. I should be able to afford it too. If my friends who are the same age as me can afford that, I should be able to afford it too. And nobody stops to think to themselves or very few of us anyway.Maybe they can’t afford it. Maybe we’re all just doing this. And who does that benefit? The banks, the credit card companies. That’s who it benefits. It does not benefit us at the end of the day.[00:18:20] Lara: fake it till you make it is not ideal when it comes to money.[00:18:23] Rowan: No! I think even though we’re not, money mindset coaches, I think we can very clearly state that is not a good approach.[00:18:31] Lara: But I will say that I think there are some people who teach mindset who say. That you should do that kind of stuff so that you embody that person that would make that money and then you will earn that money. I have heard that messaging and I think it’s not ideal.[00:18:49] Rowan: That seems dangerous to me. I, I think that there’s a difference between you do actually have the money to go out and have a few more experiences every month.Maybe you should do that versus. You should rack up a bunch of debt so that you can feel like you are an earner. And then the rest will follow. I don’t know. I think that this is falling into manifestation territory and while I do think that energy is a real thing and that you know, if you’re a really positive person, you tend to have more positive interactions and you know that if you believe in yourself, you’re more likely to achieve goals and all those things.But I also don’t think that. Money just magically appears because you want it to appear. there is such a thing as self-sabotage, and I do think myself, I have done that. I think that there are times where I have had opportunities to make money it has made me so uncomfortable because I didn’t wanna be that person who is thinking about making all kinds of money.So I turned it down. I didn’t do it, and I, can think of, a few times in my life where I probably walked away from thousands and thousands of dollars because I felt like I didn’t deserve it or shouldn’t be that person, whatever that person is. but I also know that I am not somebody who can just go get a six figure job because I do not have the qualifications for nearly all six figure jobs.So that’s not a thing I can suddenly do, just because I’m thinking that I deserve it.[00:20:29] Lara: Yeah. It is so complex and the biggest message that I hope comes from this is talking about money opens up our knowledge, right? If you don’t know what’s true, if you don’t know what’s actually going on with people, if you don’t know how much things cost, like when you have so many things that you just don’t know because nobody talks about it, then of course people.Get a little bit confused. Of course, people make up their own stories and that’s why I think talking about it makes a lot of sense. I think to your point, that it should be more open, howmuch people make. I think it’s always tricky when things are negotiable, right? So one of the most.Anxiety ridden things for me about cars is that apparently, depending how hard I push and argue, I can pay less for my car. I don’t really want to do that, but I don’t know how much is reasonable. I don’t wanna be unreasonable. I don’t wanna pay more than I need to. I don’t wanna have a fight, like there’s so many, I don’t want to.I also get angsty about tipping to be. Fairbecause it’s not clear.and so to me, I would like to buy a car where you give me the most reasonable price and I pay you that amount. but the same is true with jobs, right? And I understand that there’s a range dependent on experience and so on. But if you offer me a job and you tell me the salary is.I don’t know, $85,000. that’s my starting place for this imaginary job.[00:22:09] Rowan: Nice job. I like it.[00:22:10] Lara: But the range is like 85 to 120, let’s say.And you say, here, would you like $85,000? Likethere’s part of me that would be like, yes, thank you. And then. I don’t wanna seem greedy or pushy or create some kind of conflict that might make them not want me anymore to then ask for more money. But one of the reasons that people make different amounts for the same job is because some people ask for more and then they get it, and some people don’t ask for more, so they don’t get it.And I think it’s tricky. I think that’s just a tricky thing.we can ask for more. I think we can also do it probably without arguing,but it can be uncomfortable. I have a story that might be interesting here, which is we had, one of our cars written off after an accident. And I had looked up how much I thought the car was worth,so that I would have a sense of that. And then when the insurance adjuster called me and said, okay, so we’re gonna be able to give you thismuch, and it was more than I thought it was gonna be. And so I had two choices, I could say, oh wow, thank you. OrI could say what I thought I was gonna say in the beginning when I thought they were gonna low ball me.And say,oh, that’s good. is there any chance you could go higher? And the woman said, no, no, we can’t. And I said, okay. She’s like, it’s based on, a formula. I said, okay. And she said, just hang on a second. I have to check something. And she came back and gave me an extra thousand dollars.[00:23:42] Rowan: Wow.[00:23:44] Lara: . So some of it. It’s just likeabout asking It doesn’t need to always be like this battle that we’re going into, some kind of, major fight in order to get more. It can just be like, so what else could you offer me? And like, you end up having an interesting and different conversation.The more we can talk about it, the more we can say, can you go higher than that? The more you say, well, I was hoping for this amount. The more likely it is to happen, but if you don’t ask, people will give you the lower amount.[00:24:14] Rowan: Yeah, it’s true. I do think that negotiation is hard for a lot of us.I think it’s also, especially hard for people assigned female at birth who were taught. you know, just be nice. Don’t rock the boat. Be a people pleaser, right? That comes into there. I also think when it comes to negotiating things like new job salaries, there is a level of fear that goes into that of scarcity and also of imposter syndrome.Like, oh, well you want me for this job, me? You wanna offer me this much? Oh no, I better not ask for more because like this is already too good to be true. If I ask for more, then you might realize you’ve made a mistake and I might never get another job offer like this again. That is a really tough thing to work through when that has been.The bulk of your life you know, putting that fear first. It’s one of the things that I’ve been working on really hard over the last few months is asking myself when I wanna make a decision, if I have anxiety in my body when I’m doing it, I like to ask myself, what is leading this decision? Is it logic?Is it. hope. Is it anger? Is it fear? And let me tell you, when I feel like that 99% of the time it is in fact fear that is trying to lead the charge. And fear and money in a capitalist society are attached at the hip. For most of us, I really envy people who seem to have no issue. Asking for more. No issue with turning down a job because like, of course I’m gonna get another job.Yeah, no, no problem. Or they lose their job and they’re like, it’s fine. I’ll just take some time off for me, when I lose a job, I’m immediately hitting the pavement. Like that day, if you will, the proverbial pavement. It’s all online now, but it’s like, I’ve gotta find something else. Oh, I’ve gotta find next plan.I gotta go to my plan B. Right? There’s never this pause of. It’s gonna be all right. Just take a few days, figure it out, and then get back out there. Something’s gonna find you. You are going to find it. That is the approach that I’m trying to take with money, even when opening this business because everything on paper looks like it’s going to be great.And the amount of fear I will experience if I start to think about it too much. What if people don’t wanna buy coffee from us? What if somebody comes in and leaves a bad review? What if the weather’s really bad? , And all of these different variables run through my head, but what it really comes down to is.I am afraid of success because success, Rowan, as a financially successful person, because I’m successful in a lot of ways on paper, I know that already, like, you know, I have bestselling books, I have awards, I have things that can prove that. But Rowan, as a financially successful person, somehow equates to.Rowan as a bad person, like Yikes.[00:27:38] Lara: Yeah.No matter which way we look at it, it doesn’t work,right? So either we aren’t making enough money and therefore we aren’t, a value to society, or you’re making too much money and now you’re greedy or you just can’t see yourself doing it. I think fear of success is something most people don’t really realize is a thing, but.There are a lot of people who get stuck in either like, that would make me a bad person. I have actively heard that. Right. Once somebody makes over a certain amount of money, they turn into an a*****e.[00:28:12] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. Like why? Why is it Scrooge and Scrooge do that to us? I[00:28:17] Lara: . I don’t know. But maybe it’s people who don’t want to be an a*****e who stopped trying to get there.But the people who don’t mind. Keep going. I don’t know.[00:28:26] Rowan: Well, I do think there’s something about prioritizing money and success and wealth in general above all else. That is a bit of a red flag for me because I think sometimes it’s a lack of balance, right? Where like people are, maybe prioritizing something.That is very superficial and not seeming to care, like at the expense of relationships, at the expense of empathy, at the expense of other people. And forgetting that we’re a community and that we’re supposed to lift each other up and help each other. So I think that is where, when I see that excess wealth, I really, really don’t like it as a general rule.but Because I don’t like that. I think the mindset shift I have to make is I’m never gonna be like that. That’s not ever going to be me. I look at Billie Eilish who just donated what, like $11 million to feed people and encouraged. Other millionaires to do the same and has said like, I think billionaires shouldn’t exist.Right? But like you could solve world hunger if you wanted to. Like you could do it right now, and you’re just hoarding all this money.[00:29:36] Rowan: So I think there is a way to be a financially successful person and also still be a generous and kind person. It’s just a matter of switching that in my own head about myself.[00:29:47] Lara: The other part, and I think this is probably an entirely different conversation, is how hard work is revered and how that’s what’s gonna make you more money. And so there’s definitely, for me, as somebody who has ADHD, as somebody who has chronic fatigue. I was like, I would never be able to handle that. Like I cannot do as much work as is required to make certain amounts of money.Therefore, I don’t want that level of success because it’ll just kill me. and so again, it’s this whole Blend because there’s a lot of millionaires and billionaires who don’t need to work that much. Like it’s not just that, the amount of money you make and the amount of time that goes into it are not attached in any kind of concrete way.And so again, it mixes us all up.[00:30:34] Rowan: We have people who work three different jobs and can’t afford rent. So I mean, yeah. It is not, this whole idea of hard work will be a reward. You just have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and that’s b******t. It just is. That is not true.I mean, yes, clearly, if I just sat in this room and did nothing all day, I would not earn any money. That would be bad. That is true. But, I also don’t think that what amount of energy I put out to earn money is going to equate with massive success. There are so many other elements that play into that.A lot of these people that we see, some of them are completely self-made. That’s true. A lot of them are not, a lot of them had at least middle class parents went to really good schools, uh, are white and, you know, able-bodied and often male and just kind of, maybe came up with a good idea or made the right investment and everything sort of took off from there.But you have other people who. Have been working just as hard, if not harder, who are not in that position and never will be. So we need to stop telling ourselves b******t about money and about how if we just work harder. I really, really resent when people my age and older, because that’s normally where you’re hearing it from.Not always, but a lot of times it’s older people who had some level of financial success, who look down on people who are buying matcha lattes, you know, every couple of days and going, well, you know, this is why you can’t afford a house. That’s not why they can’t afford a house. Can’t afford a house because homes are.Extremely unaffordable for most people now. So, yeah, don’t wanna go off on a rant because I think I’m speaking for a lot of people here, but I really think some more honesty about how money gets made. What it means to have money and what it doesn’t mean to have money does not make you a better person.In no way, shape or form does financial success make somebody a better human being? It makes them often a more comfortable human being. That’s about it.[00:32:54] Lara: Yeah, so let’s keep talking about it. I think that’s the conclusion here. I’d love to hear if anybody has any stories that they would wanna share, if there’s any other angle they would wanna dig in to on this.If you are a money mindset coach and you want to talk to us, let’s talk about money some more, because I think it’s important and. Like we talked about today, it can be anything. We’re not saying you need to want more, you need to want less, you need to work harder, you need to work less. Like it’s, all of those things are potentially what’s going on.It’s so different for each person. So some of it is just talking it through and understanding. You don’t need to try to measure yourself up against other people.[00:33:35] Rowan: Absolutely. It’s been a really good conversation for me. I think it’s gonna help my brain further process. Everything that happened yesterday and you know, construction just started on our cafe and I now am in a time crunch to get to a point of feeling.Really good about making money, and I know I’m gonna get there because that’s my new goal and this is the next stage of growth for me. I really hope that telling this story and us both sharing little bits of our lives and our perspectives on this has helped somebody else as well. I really would love to hear if something resonated with you.And especially if something didn’t too, there’s something that we got wrong. According to you, you should let us know that too. I really think life is about learning, so let us know what you learned and what you didn’t.[00:34:31] Lara: Thanks for joining us and we’ll see you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

“Politics and religion: the two things we don’t discuss in polite society.”If you’re like us, this has been drilled into your head for a lifetime. And as many family members and friends begin to gather for the holidays, a large number will purposely avoid discussing either of these hot button topics for fear of starting conflict. Who wants an argument with Uncle Rick? It’s best to just stick to sports, right?But there’s a big problem: NOT talking about politics (or religion, as the two are often intertwined these days) with those in our lives has created an even larger divide, sowed misinformation, and led us to the frightening place we are today. Look at the memes, the comments, the virtual shouting matches we see on social media every day. This is what happens when we go to our respective silos and never really talk in person about what matters to us with the people who matter to us.Want another reason to believe it’s time to ditch this tired societal rule? By keeping everyone in their respective corners, the powers that be—and yes, there are plenty of them to point fingers at no matter where you fall on the political spectrum—are able to maintain a certain level of control over our society. They don’t want us talking to each other.But don’t take our word for it; this has been happening throughout history. Today is merely another moment where the same playbook is repeating itself.On this episode, Rowan and Lara share why they believe these taboo topics—especially politics—need to see the light of day. Rowan, in particular, has some pretty big feelings about it as a trans man. The more we communicate, and the more we strive to understand one another and our common struggles, the better off we’ll all be. How do you feel about discussing hot topics with those you love? We want to hear about it! Drop us a line or leave us a comment.And as always, thanks for listening.LinksLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscript(These were autogenerated and have not been edited)[00:00:00] Lara: this is why conversations are good, but also difficult that I imagine they feel just as strongly that they’re correct as I feel that I’m correct. And it would be a big conversation to have people meet more in the middle.[00:00:37] Rowan: Hey, welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.[00:00:41] Lara: And I’m Lara.[00:00:42] Rowan: And it is episode 30, Lara,[00:00:45] Lara: which blows my mind. it was a big deal when we got to episode eight. but we still have things to talk about.[00:00:52] Rowan: I’m amazed by us. We actually chat usually for like a full hour before we record these.So this is us after we get all of our small talk outta the way, which is saying something.[00:01:04] Lara: Yeah. And a little bit of the, you know, we are gonna pull our thoughts together instead of just like randomly talking without any forethought. So there is a little bit of forethought to what we say.[00:01:18] Rowan: Yeah. Unless we have a guest and that’s pre-planned, we know somebody’s coming on to talk about something specific.We often spend that hour catching up and then deciding what feels right for us to talk about quite often, like we have this little list and we’re like, yeah, we had this idea and this idea, and we bounce this idea off each other. What do you really feel like talking about? And I have a topic that is really top of mind for me right now.I think it’s going to ruffle some feathers and, and that’s okay. I am willing for you to come at me about this episode and about my feelings on it because I think this idea really needs to be challenged for some very important reasons societally and also personally, and that is, there is this idea that in polite society.We should not discuss politics with friends and family because we might disagree on them, and I take issue with this. I’m going to get into why I take issue with this. There are some really big feelings for me about this, so I’m going to try and be very measured and polite.[00:02:36] Lara: But also, ‘cause I think this is what part of this comes down to, is you don’t always need to be measured and polite when you’re talking about things that you care about.And I think that the desire to keep everybody feeling okay and calm and steady, means that some big conversations never get to happen. That should happen.[00:02:58] Rowan: It’s often the elephant in the room. And I think right now when we are seeing these huge political shifts, we’re in Canada and I am almost 50 years old.I have watched a lot of changes over the years, but one thing I did not think that I would ever see in my lifetime in North America. Was the rise of fascism. And as a human rights advocate, I am stating there is no question that what is happening right now in America is fascism.Fascism is taking over. It is a playbook that was seen in many other places most recently, I would say. We know a lot about World War II Germany, pre-World War II Germany, and that’s now being played out, you know, an hour from me, in another country. It’s really hard to witness. I think a lot of us feel that way in Canada and.Yet, even in Canada as well as a lot of other countries, we are seeing right-wing political parties, not just being small C Conservative anymore, but being big C Conservative.And. Using the same playbook, the same talking points, the same everything to try and gain a foothold here. And what appears to be, in my opinion, and in a lot of people’s opinions, do the same thing in Canada as much as they can.So. I have a real problem. I mean, I always have, but now I really have a problem with the idea of having to censor myself and for others having to censor themselves around friends, around family who might be thinking of voting that way or who do vote that way, who subscribe to those beliefs, or giving into this type of pre fascism propaganda.Being told that I have to not talk about it, tone it down. This can have devastating consequences because we’re seeing that unfold south of the border here in Canada. We’re seeing that unfold in the us So I don’t think now is the time as we go into the holiday season, this is not the holiday dinner.Where you keep your mouth shut about that stuff.[00:05:27] Lara: Yeah. I mean, I think this also speaks to the fact thatwe have these bubbles, right? So there are times when I think there’s no chance that something can happen, right? There’s no chance a certain political party is going to be voted in in your province again.Um, because my bubble. Would never[00:05:48] Rowan: Yep.[00:05:49] Lara: But if also we are not talking to people who are not of the same mindset, we have no idea just how differently we speak. Years ago, and this is going back, a decade I’ve been a business owner for 18 years now. And certainly the idea of never bringing politics or anything super controversial into your business was like, you never talk about that stuff because you don’t want to have any customers go away.And as a business coach for years, I’ve said, actually I am perfectly fine with putting my values out there and what I think, because I don’t really wanna work with people who don’t. Feel that way, right? If they are so unaligned with me, it’s fine if they go away. And my end goal is never just make as much money as I can.I wanna have a good working relationship with people. and as a result, I have s previously other people would’ve said, don’t ever say that as a business owner. And I’ve been totally okay with that.[00:06:56] Rowan: We met at a business conference no. Wait, I think we met at a blogging thing, didn’t we?[00:07:02] Lara: I first learned of you. I don’t think we met that day. I just became a fan at that blogging event. So when you recall meeting me is probably more accurate because like I said, I was just reading your blog. Before that, so I knew you more than you knew me.[00:07:20] Rowan: Well, now I know you pretty well.And I’m glad I do. But we, , met, met, I think, and really connected at a business conference. And then I remember when you approached me and said, Hey Rowan, I think that what you do, you always say you don’t wanna make money at it, but If you wanna do it full time and be able to feed your family.Did you know it’s okay to make money supporting other people and educating people? And maybe we should talk about it. And I remember we went out for lunch and you were the person who convinced me that I could do this for a living. And I’m very grateful for that. But also, your. Beliefs, your openness, your sense of inclusion, your commitment to diversity, all of those things were what drew me to you.So you being open about who you are and what you’re all about, you’re right. It, certainly attracted the right clients because I became your client before I became your friend.[00:08:18] Lara: and a couple of things you said there. One is the whole. Extremes of how people feel about things, right?So if I care about this, I shouldn’t make money. I only wanna make money seem to be the extremes. And I’m like, why don’t we find like a nice little middle ground where you don’t just care about money, but you also, uh, make enough money to live? Like what about that?And yeah, I had an aha a few months ago, I used to always say, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Simon Sinek and Find Your Why I was like, my why it’s community. Mine is community. Which you know, isn’t untrue. But also I realized a few months ago that my real why is helping people find spaces where they feel safe. And I don’t know where that came from, but I am always inclined to talk about how we need to help more people feel safe.And I don’t think some of the people who get really upset and angry are feeling unsafe. They’re just like angry, right? Like the people I wanna help are the ones who feel like nobody’s on their side, who feel like nobody understands who they are, who feel like they’re different somehow. And then that means they can never be part of things.And therefore I don’t see how I could ever be anything other than very left-leaning,and I’m willing to talk about it.[00:09:44] Rowan: And that is where the problemlies because I think to me. Right now I’m not talking. Historically, there are people who have voted conservative many, many years ago, and I think that was a different thing than it is now.When somebody tells me that they are staunchly a conservative voter, it scares me. It actually gives me fear in my gut. And the reason for that is because the federal Conservative party here, as well as the Republicans in the US and a lot of other conservative leaning politicians around the world right now are targeting people who are not like them.So I am both, white. I have family from the uk. I’m also indigenous, but I present very white. So I don’t deal with any racism and I can’t speak to that. But I can speak to being transgender and right now people are using my community to. Incite fear and anger and disgust in their voter base.they tell lies about us. They use a ton of misinformation, disinformation. I will say the difference between disinformation and misinformation, ‘cause you’ve probably heard both, is that disinformation knows it’s a lie and it is created. To tell a narrative it’s, used for propaganda misinformation is when you learn that disinformation or get something wrong that is proper information and you share that, not knowing that that is wrong.So what I hear from a lot of people is misinformation. That they got from disinformation campaigns put out by politicians who are usually right-leaning. So it is no longer about things like small business or property taxes or industry or smaller government, like that’s not what conservative means to me anymore.What it means is. That you wanna get rid of people like me and you wanna get rid of people who have brown skin or black skin, or you want to get rid of immigrants, you want to take away women’s rights. Like that is the messaging. That is occurring. So it’s not so much, oh, my uncle votes conservative and my dad votes liberal or something like that.Right. And they just don’t talk about it because they’re just gonna have a debate about taxes. No, no, no. This now has become, somebody wants to take away the rights of a whole bunch of people and. Another party does not want to do that. And human rights to me, because we are human beings, should always be top of mind.[00:12:49] Lara: Yeah. I completely agree with that and I think it has gotten to be so much more than how much money do we spend on what? although some of that money is on spending on things like. Welfare, like how much money do we put in to help with housing and how much do we think people need to take care of themselves?Which is where, to me it comes back to values versus anything else. And I I have a really hard time understanding people thinking. But that’s my money when the alternative is people suffering I can hear it like, I’m saying it? And it sounds very biased in some ways, right? Like, I’m like staunchly here, but I still think it’s true.But It’s a tricky thing to do and , I think having conversations about it is important. I think that some of the things that people are scared of is because they don’t know about it. They don’t have any kind of humanization to it. If you have never met somebody who is trans. It might feel like, uh, I don’t know.Right? Like, I don’t want it to feel like that, but like society has kind of created a situation where we have been taught to think of it that way. And that’s why I think the work that you’ve done has been so important because we’re, talking about people. We’re not talking about something weird.We’re talking about human beings who are just.Being themselves and I think there are so many different variations of being yourself, but ultimately I want everybody to be able to just be themselves. And I am feeling emotional talking about this. Like I can’t understand. Not being okay with that.But I also think, and this isn’tpolitics, I don’t know, it’s all meshed up together now, isn’t it?[00:14:42] Rowan: It is. That’s the problem.[00:14:44] Lara: It’s that I think, I don’t know. I think that some of this is about control. There are people who are out there trying to control, and there are some people who really and truly believe that.It is better for society and for specific human beings to do things the way that we’ve been told it’s supposed to be like they truly think. It’s not that I’m trying to just be in control and not lose my power, like I think it’s better for you to just be what we told you to be.[00:15:16] Rowan: Yeah.[00:15:17] Lara: And I don’t agree with that either, but like I do think some people are coming at it from a place of like, I think this is right.Like, I’m not trying to be mean, I’m not trying to be this, I’m just, I’m pretty sure this is right. And recognize, and this is why conversations are good, but also difficult that I imagine they feel just as strongly that they’re correct as I feel that I’m correct. And it would be a big conversation to have people meet more in the middle.[00:15:46] Rowan: Definitely social media has created larger divides. It’s put us into these silos. You talked about bubbles earlier, and it’s true. We have these social bubbles. Social media has made it worse though, because now we have.these echo chambers where I know, for example, a bunch of trans people who do a lot of what I do and they go online and they share their lives and they try to humanize us as you know, the humans. We are having this more unique or less common, I should say, experience. And that there’s nothing to fear and there’s nothing weird about it.It’s just who we are, and they’re open to questions and they’re really fantastic. some of them do a way better job than I do at reaching a whole bunch of people. The problem is that. A lot of the people that we are all reaching are people who think exactly like us anyway. Because the algorithms have it set up where you are going to see what it is that you engage with.And so in my case, when people respond to me, it tends to be people who either think exactly like me anyway. Maybe they’re more like you, where they’re not trans themselves. They wanna learn, but they have an open heart and mind, and they’re willing to take the plunge and learn some more. Or you also have.People who get that content because they engage with it hatefully all the time.Some of them are bots for sure. We know that the internet is currently overrun with bots, and the bots are created to sow discord and further that divide. Again, that’s not me saying it. You can go look at the science behind it.They are designed. There’s some that are built to the right. There’s some that are built to the left, and they are created to make it so that we don’t talk to each other. All we do is throw insults at each other. So that is why it is so important that we’re able to have these conversations in person.First of all, if you have a conversation in person. With somebody who may not agree with you, you’re far less likely to have a screaming match and call each other names about it. You’re far more likely to look at the human in front of you, who you probably have an established relationship with, who you might even love as a human being, as a member of your family, as somebody you went to high school with, whoever it might be.And you can have that conversation with them and they’ll be like. That’s Rowan. I know Rowan. I know Rowan’s not a bad person. I know Rowan doesn’t think I’m a bad person. We just see things differently and maybe because I like Rowan and I respect him, I will be more inclined to listen to him. I’m gonna keep an open mind.and then for me be like, oh Larry, I don’t know. I’m just making somebody up right now. Larry seems like maybe the guy who I would think would maybe be small C Conservative who’s voted conservatives his whole life. You know, maybe he runs a farm and he really cares about farmers’ rights, which I do too, by the way.So now he gets to see that we care about farmers’ rights and he doesn’t have an issue with L-G-B-T-Q people. He really doesn’t. And he loves his daughters and he wants them to grow up safe and happy and , everything else. But he votes in this way because this matters to him. And maybe I say, Hey, Larry, but because you’re voting for this particular party.They also wanna take away my rights and these are the rights they want to take away. And Larry goes, oh my God, I didn’t even see that in the platform. What, what do you mean? Right. And now Larry learned something. I also learned that people who vote conservative , aren’t all out to get me through that conversation.He actually just had no idea. This is why we need to be talking to each other and not being told it is impolite.[00:19:46] Lara: Yes. And I think some of it can be done nicely.I don’t know what the right word is, right? Like we’re not talking about , I am going to be in a room and I’m gonna start shouting at you that you’re a bigot and you’re hate.Like it’s not necessarily about that. , Again, you can humanize issues very calmly with storytelling. I hope that I am open to hearing other points, like I think I am. I try to be open to hearing other people’s points of views. I’m not. Necessarily going to agree with you, but I wanna hear, right?Like I wanna hear a little bit more from other people, and I know for a fact that I have helped other people understand things that they just didn’t understand before because I started talking about it and then they started asking questions. I would say, even from your first book, Rowan, I had many conversations where people were like, but what about this?Does this mean that? And it’s like, please ask me. Like I don’t want you to go up to a trans person and like batter them with all these questions that they’ve heard a million times. And I don’t necessarily know all the answers, but I have learned enough and read enough to get you partway there. And I think that that has helped people just as a general understanding.Of what it means to be more inclusive and to not judge people for making different decisions than they do. I think some of the conversations have been around, it’s okay if you don’t understand. You don’t need to understand other people all the time. You just need to know that it’s okay to not understand people and just when they tell you something about themselves.You just say, okay, I believe you.I don’t need to understand it. I can’t understand what it feels like to be somebody completely different than I am. Like I can’t embody that and be like, aha, now I understand it. I don’t need to because I just know. That who I am feels very true.And if I told you and you said, nah, I wouldn’t like that either.[00:21:56] Rowan: Exactly, I had a friend, this is way back about 10 years or so, there was an election. I was going to vote for a more left-leaning party and she was gonna vote for the one at the time, right-leaning party. And I said to her, and we are having breakfast, we had breakfast every week together.lovely person. Very, very supportive of my family, my family that has trans people in it. Very supportive of queer people in general and. I said to her, you know, voting for that party means a vote against my family. , You’re voting against our rights. Because they very clearly have shown that they do not support our rights and have villainized this a fair bit.And she said, I understand what you’re saying and I don’t wanna do that. At the same time, I’m looking at the tax platforms for both of these parties, and these were the only two parties that had stood a chance to win in our immediate area at the time. And she said, my family has a small business and it is really struggling right now, and the party that I’m voting for.Has better tax incentives. They’re not going to up the tax on us. They’re gonna give us a bit of a break. This is what they’re promising. And that might be the only way that I can leave a legacy for my children.And you know, this is where nuance comes in, right? Because she didn’t have a bad bone in her body really.I still think that, and I’m going with , this is a deliberate use of words. I still think that human rights trump tax breaks.But I also understood the fear that she was dealing with and she did end up voting in that way. And I ended up voting in my way. And, you know, the outcome was what it was.It hurt. To know that that’s what she put first. But also at the same time, I understood where she was financially and what she was dealing with. And this is the thing, right, because she’s a human being at that point. She’s not this person behind a keyboard. This stranger, I don’t know who’s championing party that.I am afraid of, she is a person making a decision that she feels is the best one for her family. So I am not here to say that everyone who doesn’t vote like me is wrong. I’m not close-minded enough for that. I won’t do that. I will not say that everybody who votes a certain way that is not like me is somehow evil and doesn’t care about.People who are marginalized. I don’t necessarily think that’s true. I think there are some people, certainly, right, we’ve seen it, who really don’t care about anybody who isn’t exactly like them. But I do think that fear plays a big part. Here’s the other thing though. I wanna talk about privilege, and I know some people are going to roll their eyes, but privilege is a very real thing.Like I said earlier, my father was indigenous anishinabe, and my mother is of UK descent. I. Was born with the palest skin you’ve ever seen in your life to the point where his family was like, are you sure this is his baby? Mm-hmm. Yes, I’m his baby.Butit’s a whole funny story around that.but yeah, I mean that’s the way genetics go sometimes, and I do not walk around ever having to experience racism in my life. That is a privilege. It does not mean my life isn’t hard in other ways. I’m trans., I lived on the streets when I was younger. I dealt with addiction.Like I’ve had all kinds of things. I didn’t get a high school diploma until my late thirties. So many ways that I dealt with, a harder hand and other ways where I was quite privileged. I think that when somebody says it’s impolite to talk about politics. That comes from privilege, my friends. It does. Because your existence, in most of those cases, I can’t say all of those cases, but I don’t know everyone’s story. But in most cases of people that I’ve seen, and I lived in, very white suburbia for a long time. what I’ve seen is that the people who say that tend to have the least fear of their rights being taken away by politicians.I need you to know that every single time. My province goes to the polls, my country goes to the polls, or I watch another country that we tend to mirror politically, go to the polls. I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I am anxious as all get out because the rights of myself, of my child, who was non-binary.Of other people I care about who are black or brown, who are disabled, who are women, you know, who are children, whatever it might be. Anyone who’s kind of on the margins. Our rights are often on the table, every single election, whether you realize it or not, whether you have read that in the platform or not, whether you have watched all of their interviews.Because let me tell you, I watch everything closely. I listen to the sound bites, and I also listen to the whole interviews, and I read the interviews and I read the platforms. But if you don’t have to do that, and it’s just as easy as you go, oh, I really like so and so, and they’ve been running in our area for years.So I just keep voting for them, not realizing that their political party that they’re affiliated with has gone further and further and further down the road of anti-human rights or whatever it might be. God, that’s privilege. I envy you. But I also really wish you could see it, and when I bring up privilege, I tend to get slammed so hard again.People think that when I say someone is privileged, they’ve never had hardship in their lives. That is not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is you have had enough privilege in your life that you don’t have to be afraid every election.[00:28:13] Lara: Yeah. I have a lot of privilege. and I try to acknowledge it often, and I agree.There are a lot of people who don’t want to hear that because it makes them feel like, am I supposed to feel bad about that? I was like, well, it’s not about feeling bad about it, it’s about acknowledging that you’re coming from a different place. It’s about understanding that your experience is not everybody’s experience.So we’re coming right back around to, we’re all different. And a lot of people don’t like to think that we’re all different. They want to sort of have this one way. We’re all supposed to be this way. We’re all equal. Everything’s the same. The only thing different might be how hard I work. Oh, yeah. yeah, it’s tough.I think. Ultimately the whole, I don’t want to talk about it, is sometimes out fear. There’s certainly, some people coming back to social media that I’ve not gotten rid of, who I know are not in the same camp as me, and I’m trying to not make my bubble smaller and sort of be aware of other points of view, but I don’t often.Jump into it. ‘cause I don’t wanna like have a big fight. Like I don’t want to, but sometimes I do. And I think it’s important , to sort of understand where other people are coming from or at least see it, right? Like,, I don’t understand. I don’t understand why a lot of Canadians with small businesses think that it’s our government’s fault that it’s really hard.To ship to the US right now. Like it is not our government’s fault. The tariffs were not us. And I don’t think that it was just a matter of some simple conversation from the Canadian government that would’ve made that go away. Like, I don’t know what you think is happening that you’re blaming our government for this, but I’m trying to see where people are coming from.And I understand that for a lot of the people saying that it’s because. Their income has been slashed and they’re scared. I still don’t understand why they’re laying the blame where it goes. But I think having conversations help us at least understand that some people are going in a certain direction because of fear, not because of anger, not because ofhate, and also.I think just like you were sayingbefore, in the end, which thing trumps what and why? And having conversations about that and understanding where you’re coming from is important. So having the conversations helps us understand other people. It helps us maybe understand beyond the propaganda where other people areactually coming from.I don’t know if it’s gonna change anything, but I don’t think we should hide from it because what’s happening is too big and important to ignore.[00:30:56] Rowan: They don’t want us talking to each other again. This is not me pulling that out of thin air. If you look at the creation of these bots and the way algorithms work on social media, who controls that social media, what their very open now political affiliations are, et cetera. You arrive, I think, very logically at the idea that.Keeping us in two wildly separate camps is the way it is. Very much when we talk about it’s not polite to talk about politics, the add-on to that is, and religion, right? Like this is always what people talk about. But again, I am not bashing religion. I’m a very, spiritual person myself.I’m not of any particular faith, but I did grow up Catholic. My family is Catholic, and so I do not take an issue at all with individual faiths, whatsoever. A lot of organized religion over time, and if you talk to historians and people who’ve studied religion, they will tell you this.A lot of the changes that were done, a lot of the dogma that is, instilled by religious organizations has been about control and one of those ways to keep control. Keep your flock, if you will, doing this exact thing. Keep that flock over there. Doing that exact thing, is to make it so that your religion is the only religion.It’s the only one that matters. It’s the only right one. And that other people’s religions, are bad, evil, sinful, whatever it might be, right? I mean, that’s sort of the way it’s always worked. That’s why so many wars have been steeped in religion. Talking to each other, having people have conversations about their own faiths or lack thereof, whatever it might be.In kind and accepting and respectful ways, understanding that someone else’s beliefs are just as important to them as my own. We get to learn about each other. That way we get to understand each other. So this idea that you should not talk about religion. I mean there are sometimes workplace laws and guidelines, and I’m not talking about that right now.I’m talking about social settings and family settings. I think. If you’re Catholic, the more you talk to someone who’s Muslim, you start to realize that Muslims aren’t evil or vice versa, right? But when it’s like, oh no, we don’t talk about religion, we don’t discuss that stuff, then you never get to learn that somebody else is just as happy where they are as you are with where you are.And that there are far more similarities in a lot of these religions than there are differences Again. We all need to be talking to each other about the things we have been told not to talk to each other about. I think this is key to healing society.[00:33:49] Lara: I think that’s my biggest takeaway from this conversation is remembering they don’t want us talking to each other, so if there’s anything to take away, it is we need to talk to each other[00:34:01] Rowan: and that also.Means to me, if you are someone who does not think the way we do, and you wanna say, Hey, you two got this wrong. Let me tell you why I vote the way I do. Let me tell you why I do things the way I do. We’d actually love to hear from you, like I am really open to having conversations with people, and if you wanna come on and have a conversation with us, I’m not a debater, I’m not gonna debate somebody.I don’t think that’s a productive use of my time and energy, but I would love to talk to you. And see where you’re coming from. I think this is a really healthy thing. And no, we will not be entertaining any bigotry, just so we are very clear. Bigotry is off the table of any kind. But if you wanna say, Hey, this is why I do what I do and this is why I feel the way I feel.Absolutely. Drop us a line, send us a comment, tell us you wanna chat with us, we’ll chat[00:34:57] Lara: please. Do we have, uh.At least another 30 episodes to keep making. Right.[00:35:02] Rowan: I cannot believe we made it to 30. I’m so proud of us, my friend.[00:35:07] Lara: I know. It’s awesome. Thank you for joining us today.[00:35:10] Rowan: Yeah. And please get in touch and let us know what you think of this episode.Do us a favor too. If you are listening to this on a podcasting app of some kind, go and rate us. It really helps us a lot and it lets us know how we’re doing.[00:35:23] Lara: And tell all your friends about us,[00:35:25] Rowan: tell all your friends, and have a really, really wonderful day.[00:35:29] Lara: Thank you. This is a public episode. 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Inside of us there are two wolves: One of them is trying to dominate the entire pack and the other stopped howling because they think they’re being too loud.Society loves to keep us in check with the idea that we’re either “too much” of a good thing or not enough of it. We’re too fat or too thin. Too loud or too quiet. Refusing to age gracefully or running from our inevitable demise by using Botox.Why does it do this? Because breeding insecurity in the average person creates insecurity, and that insecurity carries with it a level of control. If we feel bad about ourselves, we’re more likely to spend money on something that promises to fix it. If we stay quiet, we’re less likely to push back on authority. If we think we’ll never be good enough, there’s a vast array of self-help initiatives and self-medicating distractions to keep us focused on. But what if we were just allowed to… be? Wouldn’t that be a game-changer? In this episode of Unboxing It, Lara and Rowan talk about all the ways in which we’re taught (and even manipulated into) believing the truest version of ourselves isn’t just right. And don’t even get Rowan started on the “perfect teeth” trend.We hope you enjoy this one! Drop us a line, leave us a comment, and let us know.LinksUnboxing It Episode 12 Confidence vs ArroganceLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscript(Please note this are autogenerated and not edited)00:00:00] Lara: you need this to be enough.Oh, why do you want that? Don’t you feel okay with yourself? You should really get this. Like, it’s a constant push pull, push, pull that makes it really hard to ever feel okay with yourself.Welcome back to unboxing It. I’m Lara.[00:00:40] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.[00:00:42] Lara: And today first of all, right off the bat, I’m gonna say I’m feeling like a lot of big feelings today, so we’re gonna see how that comes out. In terms of our conversation,[00:00:52] Rowan: We spent, 45 minutes. Talking about big feelings before we hit record on this, so I think it’s gonna be a spicy one.I’m excited.[00:01:01] Lara: I just have big opinions today. But we’re gonna talk a little bit about that feeling of not feeling like you’re enough, but also maybe sometimes worrying that you’re being too much, where that comes from, why we worry about it so much. And then potentially we can talk about what to do about it at first, let’s see where we go.[00:01:22] Rowan: Yeah. And who decided it anyway, that’s the other thing that I want to touch on. Like who decides if we’re too much or we’re not enough? What’s that based on? So yeah. Let’s dig into that one.[00:01:32] Lara: Yeah. I think there are so many things we can talk about when it comes to this, but a lot of it is societal expectations of what we’re supposed to be.And the fact that some of those expectations are very vague, like we don’t actually know specifically always what they are, which means that we never know if we’re actually doing well or doing badly, which means we can worry about both.[00:01:59] Rowan: Lucky us.[00:02:00] Lara: Woo.[00:02:03] Rowan: It is true. I have spent so much of my life, especially when I was younger, but even still today, sometimes when I meet new people, when I share something or when people ask me what I do for a living, there’s always this juggling act that’s going on in my head where it’s like, did I overshare?Did I brag? Maybe , did it come across as braggy when I talk about, , the accomplishments I’ve had in my life, or did I say something really awkward and now everyone’s judging me? it just is this social contract that I don’t think any of us really signed up for, but we’re in it and very, very few people don’t.Subscribe to that contract. Don’t follow that contract. And often when they don’t follow it, there’s judgment associated with that and we all know it. So we’re all a little careful about what we say and do.[00:03:02] Lara: Yeah, there’s the basics of what we might have grown up hearing that you shouldn’t be this or you shouldn’t be that.And again, a lot of those things are just made up and they don’t need to be true. I think the idea of. Not being vain of not thinking too much of yourself is particularly Canadian, and I know I’ve heard it. I’ve seen it my whole life. Oh, don’t tell her she’s too pretty. She’s gonna get a big head.Like you don’t want her thinking she’s too great. And then it’s backed up throughout life with people who are like, oh, did you see her? She thinks she’s hot. S**t.[00:03:37] Rowan: Exactly. That. Or the complete opposite where it’s like. Why don’t you love yourself? You should find yourself attractive.But don’t talk about that. You find yourself attractive. Never admit that to anybody, but Definitely feel it, but don’t walk around like you know that you are. , Or like, oh, you’re successful. Don’t talk about being successful. Talk about being successful because it helps other people.No, no, no. Not like that. . Well, now you’re a jerk because you just made people feel bad that you have this level of success that they don’t. It is. I mean, yes. there are people who are absolute braggarts and we’ve all met them. And they drive us all crazy because their entire identity is attached to how much money they make or how attractive they are or whatever.Right? But we’re talking, I think more about You can’t find yourself good looking because if you find yourself good looking, that’s too much. You can’t have. A home you’re proud of? Because if you brag about your home, or I should say, if you talk about your home, that can be seen as bragging.There’s all these different things, but then there’s also the other side of it where we’re constantly told to be more confident, to be proud of ourselves. So, like, what is, this happy medium? Because I’m not sure I entirely know what it is.[00:04:58] Lara: I don’t think it exists. I think we’ve been pushed in both directions so hard that there is no just Okay.Because the just Okay. Would make life a little too simple. And everybody needs everybody. again mentioned, I’m a bit on a today, right? But society, the people out there want us working hard. They don’t want us thinking we have enough, but. They also wanna make sure you’re not so depressed.You like don’t do anything. we need you to work, we need you to want more. We need you to think there’s possibility. Oh no, you haven’t achieved it yet. Simmer down, keep trying. because there is no, just yeah, you’ve achieved it. Like, I really don’t think there is. We had an episode already about arrogance versus confidence and I think, that’s an important topic, and I think we dug into confidence a bit there. Like we are not taught to be confident, but we are told to be confident and just doesn’t work in your brain. How are you supposed to not be confident and confident at the same time?What are you talking about?[00:05:59] Rowan: Well, I think one of the reasons why. We are told we must be confident but not taught. It is because if we are taught to actually be confident. We would question a lot of what is pushed upon us. I’m gonna give an example of this that’s going to show my age, but I remember when teeth whitening became a thing,There was a time where suddenly if you had any teeth that were not bleached white. It was practically overnight that this concept came out that in order to have a nice smile, your teeth had to be pristine white, this unnatural shade of white that nobody has, like babies don’t even have that shade of white.But that’s what we were taught, and suddenly everyone’s rushing out for tooth whitening toothpaste. special whitening services at the dentist. you know, whitening strips. It just went on and on and on and I wasn’t able to do that. And I remember it actually affected my confidence. I have a bridge that is set in my mouth at the front of my mouth, at the top from a car accident I had years ago, and it is the most natural shade.Of white teeth that you can get. And I say natural shade because my teeth. Are naturally the lightest shade they can be without going in that super white direction. And suddenly that wasn’t enough. That was dirty, that was yellow, that was brown, that was gross. And it was a status symbol to have something lighter.And now we’re seeing a reversal of that years later, like 20 years later or something. We are seeing people in Hollywood especially sort of rebel against this idea. So it, even comes down to tooth spacing where having these. Perfect rows of teeth were a big thing. Now they’re looking for actors who have imperfect teeth because it makes them more interesting.It makes them more authentic looking. This is starting to happen. all of that to say if I had been truly confident. And not just told, I should feel confident if I had been taught to be confident in myself. I would’ve looked at that tooth whitening stuff and been like, eh, I don’t need it.my teeth are fine the way they are. I’m now confident enough to think that I’ve been thinking that for a while, but back then I wasn’t. And if I had had any means to do it without completely replacing my teeth. I probably would’ve gone and done it. That industry has made a ton of money over the years for absolutely no reason, just because they were able to convince a bunch of people that they weren’t attractive enough unless they had their teeth whiter.It’s wild to me. So that’s where I’m getting this idea that keeping us in this sweet spot of not feeling good enough. Once we start to feel better, pushing us back down is the way for society to keep humming if that society is capitalist.[00:09:11] Lara: I agree. We could even expand on the teeth thing like how many people get braces just because their teeth aren’t perfectly straight.Like to me, braces are, if your teeth are really like problematic, but some people it’s pushed on them if their teeth are not exactly perfect or the rise of veneers, , and if you really like that and you want that, that’s okay. It’s the whole, yeah. both sides of this, where it’s like you need this to be enough.Oh, why do you want that? Don’t you feel okay with yourself? You should really get this. Like, it’s a constant push pull, push, pull that makes it really hard to ever feel okay with yourself.[00:09:52] Rowan: Well, I mean, I say all of that about the teeth. As someone who just had gender affirming surgery, I just had top surgery, which for a trans man is usually a mastectomy.So I had a mastectomy. I had nipple graft. I love the way my chest looks now. I’m so, so happy. It was worth the expense because I had to pay for part of it. It’s been worth the recovery. I’m like three weeks in now. I feel great. So no, I’m not saying in any way that if you are unhappy with something about yourself, you shouldn’t change it.If you know that’s going to help you feel better because this has changed my life. But what I am saying is that just like the diet industry and just like. Creating these little worker bees that are going to, follow this path along to retirement because they’re being taught like you have to be successful and in order to be successful, you must follow these steps and rise through these ranks and achieve these financial milestones.Or are you really enough? Like all of that is. A creation, it’s a manipulation and, and I’m not trying to sound like a, a conspiracy theorist, but when you pull it right back to who we are, we’re just animals really. Right? We’re just intelligent ish, depending on what choices we’re making, but we’re intelligent animals.A lot of this has just been fabricated to. Create societies and people who will do certain things, spend money certain ways, spend time certain ways for a specific purpose. And so keeping us down is a way for that power over us to continue.[00:11:35] Lara: Yes, and that’s where. This pulls into work. It pulls into looks, it pulls into personality, it pulls into everything.And that’s why it’s so hard to ever feel like you’re enough and to worry that you’re too much at the same time. Like that’s why I thought this was such an interesting topic because, there are days where I. I think, oh, I’m certainly not enough. I haven’t done enough. I’m not trying hard enough. I don’t put in enough effort with my friends, even though I love them and I care about them, I don’t put in enough effort.And then like within the same day, I’m like, oh my God, am I annoying that person by checking in with them too much or talking to them too much? I’ve sent all these messages. I don’t know if they wanna hear from me that much. There’s no. Winning because we’re battered with all these, this is what it means to be a good friend.This is what it means to be a bad friend, but it’s never like black and white.[00:12:30] Rowan: Yeah. This shows so much in parenting too, you don’t have to be a parent to see this. All you have to do is go online and you will see that parents who do it this way. Are wrong and parents who do it the complete opposite way are also wrong.Right. And when my kids were younger, I remember, babies who were left to cry it out, sort of that sleep training thing that was still really popular. It’s less popular now. I didn’t do it but I remember the. Constant battle between those who sleep trained and those who did not, and both of them pointing fingers at each other about what terrible parents they were and how their children were gonna grow up damaged somehow.It’s now been 20 something years since a lot of that happened. My eldest is 28 and he is very much a baby who co-slept, in our room until he could walk, and then was moved into his own room and he’s very much on par with all of his other peers who were sleep trained, right?Like it didn’t really make as big of a difference as people thought, but. The more that those things happen, those debates, the more it fuels, insecurity and the more insecurity people feel about who they are or what they’re doing, and especially, how it’s affecting the people around them. The more that they’re going to go to any lengths they can to change that.Is that buying a parenting book that somebody is selling? Is that, pulling extra hours at the office so they can get that promotion? Is that. Getting that box of hair dye because you started to see some grays in your hair and oh my goodness, you can’t look like you’re aging, Or is it reading a book about how to socialize? Because you always think you’re so awkward when maybe a lot of people don’t think you’re awkward, but you have convinced yourself that you are. I think that happens a lot too. So. I just wish there was a little more room for authenticity and figuring it out without all that judgment placed on ourselves and judgment placed on us by society.[00:14:49] Lara: I think that comes down to the whole, there’s a right way and there’s a wrong way mentality, which I, don’t think that makes sense. We’re different. Different people like different things. Different people want to interact with people in different ways. We need all kinds of people to have an interesting world, right?Like we want an interesting world. We do not want everybody to be the same. And yet the how should you be if I want to think that you’re doing well, puts everybody in a, this is how you all have to be the same kind of situation, and it’s okay. If you do things differently than other people, it’s okay if you don’t want what other people want.It’s okay to have different kinds of friendships with different amounts of interaction and still think that they’re great friendships.[00:15:44] Rowan: Yeah, I think about. Dating. I don’t, I’m not dating. I have a partner, but I have a lot of friends who have gotten divorced who are now dating , for the first time in forever.And there’s all these rules and of course there should be rules around consent and that sort of thing. A hundred percent, don’t be creepy. And I’m sure you’ve seen this as well, but there’s this whole thing where it’s like, okay, I went on a date with this person.Okay, well, don’t text them. Don’t text them. You don’t text, right? Don’t reach out. Give it at least three days or whatever it might be. And it’s like, it just feels so inauthentic to me. Now, maybe that’s how some people work, but who came up with this rule, right?If I’m interested in somebody, I for sure want them to see who I am as a person right from the start. And if I am somebody who’s going to text you the day after our date to say, Hey, I had a really good time. I’d love to see you again. Or like, tell an inside joke that came up that night or whatever.Like, that’s just who I am as a person. I’m gonna showcase that. I think it’s weird that, that we have such strict rules around these things because what is the alternative that we all play by the exact same rule book and then show them much later the type of person that we are. What’s the point of that?[00:17:06] Lara: And I think it’s like mixing things up. I’ve heard that, you know, you gotta wait a few days rule forever because you don’t wanna seem too needy. You don’t wanna seem too keen.[00:17:17] Rowan: Yeah,[00:17:17] Lara: okay, but what if you just seem like you really like that person? Like that’s what that could be like. I’m messaging you right away because I like you, not because.I need you to fill a hole in my heart that has been empty forever, and as soon as I talk to you again, you’re gonna be my whole world. And now you’re gonna have so much responsibility for my happiness.[00:17:41] Rowan: Wow. I can totally see that happening though. that would be clear.[00:17:47] Lara: I mean, you can, that’s not the onlything that can happen, like it could just be like, Hey, I really like you. I’d like to see you again.[00:17:54] Rowan: Yeah. I don’t understand why it’s bad to talk to somebody that you really like after you had. A date with them where you both seem to really enjoy yourself as far as you’re concerned, and maybe they tell you otherwise when you text them, no problem.But it just seems like a form of manipulation, right? Like, oh, gotta play hard to get, now that I’m in Guy World, because I was in Girl World for a long time and I sawlike the,women’s dating advice. Well now the social media algorithms see me as a guy.So they’ve got me with all of the alpha male guys who are giving all their dating advice, which is really funny because I don’t know how many of them actually are dating, like how many of them actually have a successful relationship, but they are. Apparently making bank off of telling you what to do and what not to do.[00:18:45] Rowan: I’m reading this. And I’m like, do you really think that’s gonna work for women? Do you really think that a woman is going to be happy that you didn’t text her for a week after you had a date with her? And then you just show up, you’re like, Hey, what’s up? Yeah, you wanna go grab a bite sometime?Next month.[00:19:05] Lara: But then again, that’s where people are waking up. And there’s issues though I think it’s in Korea, where the government is desperate for women to. Consider getting married and having children because they’re all like, you know what, I’m out.[00:19:19] Rowan: Exactly. Honestly, who can blame them?Because there’s this whole , pull towards toxic masculinity. All these young guys are like, yeah, I’m gonna be this, really successful guy who puts work first. And I’m gonna have really nice clothes and a nice watch and a great pad, and I’m gonna have women on the side.It’s like, dude, you are not the catch you think you are. But this is where we get sucked into this idea of. I’m not enough, so I have to be these things. ‘cause you can see it in this sort of toxic alpha male culture. You can see that these men are really struggling with feeling confident.And why do I say that? Because it took me a really long time to feel confident. But I do now through and through, I feel I’m a very confident person and I don’t. Believe any of the BS that they’re telling me, even though I am like this shorter, older, chubby dude. I feel really comfortable and I don’t make a ton of money, and I’m all right with that too.I’m really confident in my own accomplishments, in the way I look, in the way I feel, and especially in the way I treat others. and yes, there are definitely times where I go, Ooh, yeah, did I overshare? Oh, I think I had like three beers and I overshared there, that definitely does happen.and I said that right at the beginning. It is a thing that happens, but overall, I’m confident enough. Not to have to feel like I have to prove myself successful or enough for somebody else and not, feel the need to downplay anything that I am for somebody else because their reactions to who I am that’s coming from them.that’s what I wish everyone could realize. You know, people are like, oh, you know, I go out and I try to meet friends or, I feel so awkward. I feel like people are judging me. Well, first of all, they’re probably not judging you nearly as much as you think they are. I think that’s number one.And also. There’s a whole group for you out there somewhere. There are people out there who are going to just think you are the best person when they meet you. That’s my person. That’s my person. I want you in my circle. I want you in my life, Just as you are. Which is amazing. But you have toown who you are, I think first to find them.[00:21:48] Lara: Yes. And if these people. Who are judging you aren’t your people. That’s okay because they’re not your people. When we try, and this is certainly a thing, we try and want everybody to like us, if I don’t feel like everybody likes me, it feels like I’ve done something wrong, but there is not a single way I can be that will make everybody happy, but I can sure spend most of my life trying anyway,and it’s. Tiring. It’s exhausting and it’s how you can end up feeling like too much and not enough in the same five minutes.[00:22:22] Rowan: Yeah. I had somebody ask me once, on threads to everyone, how did you grow your audience and like, what special tips would you give others? And people are giving all this advice.I really thought about it. I have over 50,000 followers on threads now, and when I was on Twitter back in the day, I used to have over a hundred thousand, and my answer is I did nothing. I literally just showed up as myself. I show up as myself. I post things that are authentic to me. I do not have a schedule for posting.I do not Time posts. Everything I post comes from the heart, and I try not to be a jerk. When I make a mistake, I own it. That’s it. That is the entire thing, and people don’t like to hear that because they want this magic formula. The magic formula is I’m just myself and I don’t think I’m anyone special.Again, I’m not downplaying who I am. I am just myself, just like everybody else’s themselves. And I think when you show up as yourself and you keep showing up and you interact and you connect with other humans, whether that is online, whether that is offline, whether that is in the workplace, whether that is at school, whether it is at your local coffee shop, wherever it is.You show up as yourself. You bring your whole self to the table. You will find people who really like that.[00:23:51] Lara: And that is something, right? Like you’re like, I did nothing. But you did do something. Whether you were able to do it naturally without effort or not. What you did was you created a space where it was okay to be yourself.You were relatable, you shared stories that made people feel understood. And that is something, right? That is something. That’s important. That is something that people want and it’s something that other people don’t feel safe to do because they think they need a persona. They think that they need, some kind of very special schedule for anybody to see them and find them.But really at the heart of it is the heart of who we are and being able to connect with people.[00:24:40] Rowan: Well, and I also think the difference is, I think I could have tried, I think I could try and I could get many more followers than I have, but followers have never really been that important to me. What matters to me is building community.That’s at the heart of everything I do, from the books that I’ve written to the coffee shop I’m opening. Like everything that I do is really just about community creating safety.I think the biggest thing, it’s not the number of people you know, or the number of people who follow you or whatever it might be. So we could relate this to social media or we could relate this to just real world experience. Whatever it is, it’s not the quantity, it is the quality. My friends in real life, they’re really good friends and I keep them close and I love and my followers online.These are people that engage a lot and I engage with them as well. And we have a back and forth and we have, I mean, you can argue it’s a parasocial relationship because it is a parasocial relationship, but it is also a meaningful. Relationship to me, I really value having that community. It means a lot.And so it really is about knowing who you are, accepting who you are, because I’m my own little quirky self, just like everybody else is. Then just running with it. Like, just run with that s**t. just be it. And I’ve said things like this before and I’ve had people say, well, you know, you could say that Rowan, because you’re very personable and charismatic, or whatever they might say, right?But I used to be a shy little wallflower because I really didn’t like myself. And the more that I realized that I was worth liking. The more I was able to express who I am. So what you’re seeing now is just a work in progress. It wasn’t always like this. I cared so deeply what other people thought of me.I wanted everybody to like me. I worked really, really hard and it would devastate me if I had a room full of people. You know, say I was at a family gathering and. There were eight people there that I got along with really well, and there was one family member who had always been kind of awful to me. I would hyperfocus on that family member just like, please, please, just like me.Please. I’ll do anything. I will move mountains for you. Now, that family member would not be someone I talk to because why would I give them my time and energy if all I’m gonna get in return is negativity? So, yeah, I mean, people can change. You can grow.[00:27:14] Lara: And just another example of how we’re all different.I also was a massive wallflower, afraid of my own shadow, but my strategy was to try to be as invisible as possible. I didn’t want anybody to have a chance, not to like me. So I I wasn’t trying to win them over. I was hoping they never saw me. So they didn’t have a chance to realize they didn’t like me.I also have managed to just slowly but surely change that narrative and find my confidence. And I think some of the way that I see myself is so interesting because in some ways I think that I am different, quirky And then the other side of the coin is I’m like, I’m just like. Super normal, regular, and boring, nothing, that would make me stand out.But all of that together is like just understanding we don’t need to live up to all these expectations. And I don’t know if I know exactly what the takeaway is from this episode other than to allow yourself to not. Always try to measure up to things. If you find yourself being like, I’m not good enough, I’m not like that person to remember, it’s okay to not be like that person.If you want to take the minute to acknowledge people in your life and be like, I’m so happy we’re friends. I saw some kind of video or meme recently that was Basically getting, any kind of acknowledgement that we are friends can make my heart so happy. Even though like, I know we’re friends, but like you do still like me even though like there’s no reason for you not to still like me, but there’s that part of us that gets I want that validation.I want people to remind me I’m not being too much. If I message, I’m happy that we’re friends.[00:29:02] Rowan: You’re not being too much. If you message and I’m happy we’re friends.[00:29:06] Lara: Excellent. Thank you.[00:29:08] Rowan: I’ll remind you from time to time. Even if I don’t get back to you, by the way, that is never because I am ignoring you.It is often because I’m just overwhelmed.[00:29:20] Lara: Right. It’s not, she’s so annoying. don’t have the bandwidth right now to look at my phone or to engage with people in any kind of way that feels good. And so when we start to realize how differently we’re all operating in the world, when we start to realize that we don’t need to be a specific way, I think it helps us feel a little more grounded.All with the caveat that I still feel not enough and too much regularly.[00:29:48] Rowan: That in itself is a thing that we can just own. It’s kind of like the way that I tamed my anxiety. I didn’t get rid of all of my anxiety. There’s still, as someone with an anxiety disorder. I, first of all, I take medication, but also, I a m never going to fully get away from the way that my brain is wired.So what I’ve done instead, and I’ve talked about this before, is I’ve just accepted that it’s part of my life. So now anxiety and fear are allowed to be here when they show up, but they’re not allowed to drive. They can sit in the passenger seat or in the backseat and they can tell me how anxious they are or how afraid they are.That’s okay, but. They’re not governing my life anymore in the way that they were. And that can be the same for that little nagging feeling of, am I being too much? Am I not being enough? Am I successful enough? Am I beautiful enough? Am I bragging too much? It’s okay to question. And it’s okay to have those feelings because we are human.And also we’ve been conditioned into a lot of them see teeth whitening, but. It is also okay to say you can be here, but you’re not going to govern everything I do. That’s all.[00:31:06] Lara: Yeah, that’s all. I think we need to keep reminding ourselves it is a practice of reminding ourselves that we’re okay as the person that we are, and that we’re gonna just keep doing our best to find the right footholds in the world.Where we are most appreciated for who we are, and that’s all we need to start doing.[00:31:26] Rowan: That’s the whole story.[00:31:28] Lara: Thank you for joining us today. Please subscribe to us on substack, share this with all your friends. Help us get out there and have more people know about the podcast. And if you have any topics you’d like to hear us talk about, please let us know.[00:31:43] Rowan: Hey, and shoot us a review if you’d like to, if you’re listening to this on one of the podcast apps, reviews really help us, and I think the more we get, the more our podcast gets featured and that’s really nice too.[00:31:58] Lara: Absolutely. Thank you everybody for joining us today, and we’ll see next week.[00:32:02] Rowan: Have a good one. This is a public episode. 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Let us be clear: We love boundaries. Used when needed, they’re a healthy part of living a good life.But, as with all good things, the pendulum might have swung too far in that direction. A recent article that caught Rowan’s eye in Stylist magazine begs the question: Can setting too many boundaries make us lonelier? And if so, where’s the healthy medium?On today’s episode of Unboxing It, Lara and Rowan—two authors and coaches who teach others about boundaries—tackle this tricky topic. Because, while setting limits is a good thing to do, setting too many could impede personal and relationship growth. And we don’t want that. Have some thoughts on what we had to say? Drop us a line or leave us a comment. We love to hear from you! But don’t be rude (that’s a boundary).LinksStylist article (behind a paywall unfortunately)Unboxing It episode on Being LateLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscript(please not, these have not been edited for accuracy))[00:00:00] Rowan: it’s very easy for our brains to come up with excuses not to push ourselves to do things sometimes, and the way to justify that sometimes can be, well, it’s a boundary for me, and that’s what we have to get really real with ourselves. Is this a boundary? And is it really serving me? ‘ Hey there. Welcome to this episode of Unboxing It. My name is Rowan[00:00:51] Lara: and I’m Lara.[00:00:53] Rowan: And today. Wow. We’ve got one that I’ve been wanting to talk about this for a while. I saw an article in Stylist Magazine. Now we will, of course, post this article, but it is behind a paywall. I have Apple News and it came up on Apple News, but I love the name of it.It says, sorry I can’t come to your party. I’ve got boundaries.[00:01:16] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:01:19] Rowan: And after that it says We proudly prioritize self-care over commitments to others, but is an overzealous approach to boundaries only making us lonelier stylist goes behind the lines and it just goes from there. But I think that covers what we wanna talk about today, which is we are both people who have helped other people.Figure out what healthy boundaries are and create those and hold them when needed. And there’s another side to that. Like there is like anything like too much of a good thing maybe, or you know, is there too much of a good thing when it comes to boundaries? What do you think, Lara?[00:02:03] Lara: Well, I think sometimes part of it is .Boundaries aren’t what we think they are. Right. We might say like, oh, this is a boundary, but really it’s just you shutting down what is happening in life. I think there’s a balance in figuring out. What is a boundary? What is what you want your life to look like? What is what you want your life goals to be?And putting those together and understanding that none of them live alone in a silo like they have to be interconnected for it to work properly. we are not setting boundaries that are then gonna mean nothing else in our life works. We need them to work together.And I think that’s part of what’s. Not always working for people. I mean, including myself.[00:02:49] Rowan: I saw a young, Gen Z influencer talk about this again this morning and I was like, yes, this is absolutely what we need to be talking about because the young people are starting to talk about this. I think our generation was really good at teaching our kids and the younger people in general.That we let ourselves be walked over too much. We people pleased too much. as a general rule, we did not prioritize ourselves, our rest, our peace enough, and that you shouldn’t do that because it’s gonna lead to burnout and resentment and all these other things.I am a hundred percent in favor of. Figuring out what works for you, but it’s been taken to an extreme and confounded with other things mixed in with other things. And it is now harming friendships it’s now harming relationships. It is now. Preventing relationships even from getting started sometimes, because people will say, these are my boundaries.My boundary is that if I don’t feel like going out, I’m not gonna go out. my boundary is if somebody doesn’t meet these 15 qualities on a first date, I’m not gonna have another date with them. you know, or Somebody’s friend will do something that hurts their feelings one time, and then all the other friends will be like, you need to break up with that friend.you know, that’s crossing your boundaries. You need to just walk away. And so there’s no room for growth in that friendship. It just doesn’t get another chance. And so I saw this Gen Z person. Talk about how lonely they had become because they had subscribed to this boundaries and myself above all philosophy at the expense of their social life, the romantic life, and.I felt really bad for them. I’m glad they’re figuring it out. They’re still really young, right? So like a young person can figure this stuff out and go, okay, what changes do I need to make? But what exactly did we do? I, I feel as somebody who has really talked a lot about boundaries, I feel bad about that.[00:05:08] Lara: I think a lot of it that we really wanted everybody to know, whether it’s our kids or each other or our parents, like we’re telling everybody, you don’t get to tell me how I need to live my life. That’s where the, beginning is, right. You don’t get to tell me how to live my life.You don’t get to tell me how to feel. You don’t get to tell me who I can be friends with. Like, it’s a lot of that’s enough. Stop trying to boss my life around. And I think that’s true. I think we need more of that. We need to notice when things aren’t what we want and what we’ve been told to want.And we need to not just say yes to everything because we don’t wanna rock the boat. We don’t need to do things that we’re not interested in, just because that’s a good career. Like I think all of that is still true.[00:05:57] Rowan: Yeah.[00:05:58] Lara: But the side that becomes too much, the side that creates loneliness is, if you don’t like it, don’t do it.And I think that there are times where we need to do things that we don’t like or that we don’t feel like doing or that are uncomfortable. I think a lot of the growth that has helped me get to where I am in my life required. Me to get uncomfortable, I needed to say, I’m gonna come out of my little bubble and do something that I’m not super comfortable with because it’s gonna help me grow into the next version of myself.But if I was like, I don’t like that, I’m not doing it. Every time I got uncomfortable, every time I was like, eh, I don’t like it. There’s a lot of things I wouldn’t have experienced.[00:06:41] Rowan: Yeah. And I think that where that line is is different for every person.But I went to see an osteopath for the first time last week, and I’ve been having this hip pain for a long time, and she’s like, yeah, you have bursitis.explain to me what the bursa is and how it gets inflamed and, that it doesn’t respond well to stretching. Bursus do not like to be stretched very much. And so I said, well, I do stretching though. I like to do yoga and there’s a lot of good reasons for me to stretch. She was like, absolutely, but don’t do it if it hurts.Like you. Don’t lean into a deep stretch if you feel this flaring up, you have to stop. You push it a little bit and then you stop. I think that’s a really good analogy for. Things that make us uncomfortable. I can’t speak for everybody. I’m like you though.If I did not push myself in those moments of discomfort, I would not grow as a person. I am a much better person because I have made myself uncomfortable. I have found myself uncomfortable and said, I’m gonna do it anyway. Now, that does not mean. Something dangerous, it does not mean something that is going to harm me.Right? And this is where nuance is very important. I think it’s really easy in these discussions to forget nuance and unfortunately that is just a problem in general these days. You just have to look at the way our world is. And you can see that a lot of people are not living in nuance land. They’re living way over here.They’re living way over there, and it’s very black and white and there is no gray that is hurting us, and it hurts us in discomfort too. It is such a wonderful thing to be able to tell our kids or the younger generations or our friends or whoever it might be. You know, listen to your gut. If something’s making you really uncomfortable, it’s okay to say no.Yeah, absolutely it is. But like you were saying, there are life goals as well, and if my life goal, one of them is I don’t wanna be lonely. let’s say I am a kid on campus and it’s my first time on campus and I am very uncomfortable with the idea of like going to the rec room and hanging out with people and meeting new people there.Like the idea just fills me with anxiety. But if my life goal is I wanna make some friends and I want to have a good, positive experience here. Then stopping and going, well, that’s my boundary. I’m uncomfortable, so I’m just gonna stay in my dorm room is not gonna serve me long term. It might make me feel better in the moment, but long term is gonna make me lonelier.And that’s what we’re finding in a lot of these studies that are coming out on loneliness is that form of rigidity, social rigidity is deeply impacting people. When it comes to feeling alone and disconnected in the world.[00:09:45] Lara: Yeah, and Think it’s gotten worse since COVID, but I don’t like going out very much. I used to be, when I was in my twenties, I was going out all the time. I loved going out. and the older I got, the less I wanted to do it, and now I. Honestly, it becomes like this little dream I like to have about my little like hut in the middle of the woods where nobody ever talks to me again.Right. Like, there’s just like moments where that, doesn’t that sound lovely? I know it wouldn’t sound lovely to everybody, but to me there are moments right now where I was like, just nobody ever talked to me again.[00:10:18] Rowan: No, I get it. I get it.[00:10:19] Lara: and so I find it harder to go out. The older I get the, harder I find transitions like, just the act of getting ready to go out and then going out is the hardest hurdle for me.And so if I gave into that, if I was just like, I don’t like it, I don’t wanna do it, I’m not gonna do it, I’m just gonna spend more time at home, I would be a lot lonelier and I am actively making an effort to do it anyway. A lot of the time, right, like I’ve been signing up to things, I’ve got my line dancing class tonight.Do I feel like going line dancing right now? Like, not even a tiny little bit, but. Am I gonna be happy that I went? Yes. If I keep going to this thing, and I hate it every time, I’m not gonna keep going. But do I let just the amount of, like, I don’t really wanna go, mean don’t do what you don’t wanna do, Lara, and then stop.No. It’s a balance between figuring out what truly is uncomfortable. So I like your analogy with the stretching because if there’s a pull, you’re okay If it hurts. Something’s wrong, and I think that that’s, one of the things that we can look for. Like what is it like? It’s like, ugh, ugh, I don’t really like it.That’s more of a pull if you’re like, I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. That’s pain.[00:11:36] Rowan: Let’s talk for a moment too about the idea of toxic relationships, because I think. This term is getting thrown around a lot right now. Now I believe that there are plenty of relationships that would be classified as toxic.I have certainly. Contributed to those relationships and experienced those relationships. And the only way for that relationship to stop hurting me was for it to end. Right. And I’m not just talking romantic relationships, I’m talking about friendships and sometimes family relationships. but I think we’ve gone from.You should put up with this person because they’ve been your best friend forever. Or you should put up with this person because it’s your mother, or it’s your father, or it’s your brother or whoever. , We’ve gone from, well, of course you would never walk away because this is a loved one.So you just figure out ways to deal with it and try and make it work to the best of, your ability to. You know, you really don’t need to be there anymore. You could just leave if you wanted to, and if it’s making you unhappy, you should walk and. I think sometimes that is absolutely the case, especially and always if it is very abusive.Like there’s no question. An abusive relationship is an abusive relationship and it is harmful. And if there is no ability to work through that, especially if it is making it very dangerous for you, you should not be there. And I will say that to anyone. I’ll scream it from the rooftops, if a relationship is chronically harming you, even if it doesn’t.qualify as abusive and no matter what you do, it’s not getting better. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, setting those boundaries or walking away entirely, that is the way to do things. But I have also seen situations where. Somebody says, yeah, I have a friend who just flakes out on me a lot. And, that’s just really toxic.It’s really toxic that, they don’t show up on time. It’s really toxic that, they break plans at the last minute and, so I’m just not gonna be their friend anymore. And I think if we do that. know there’s gonna be people who are gonna come at me and be like, well, you know, you have to do that sometimes.Okay, that’s cool. But I guess what I’m trying to say is, at what point is it toxic versus at what point do we go? Well. you know, nobody’s going to be perfect. And, what I’m trying to say is I worry that if something isn’t perfect, and that is our reason for not pursuing it. We will in fact continue to be lonely and that is heartbreaking.[00:14:28] Lara: Yeah. Well, you first brought up this topic, or you mentioned it when we did the episode on being late, and I think that that’s the perfect example with, some people being I won’t accept somebody being late, it’s not respectful, shutting them down. Is it toxic? Like all of those kinds of things. That’s one of those example with are you actually experiencing something terrible where somebody’s being really awful to you and that you need to cut them out? Or is it something different and maybe we reconsider what’s happening.And I think it is figuring out. The nuance, it is figuring out like what is worth holding strong for and what isn’t really that big of a deal. Again, knowing everybody’s, whatever that is, not big of a deal is different. But if we come back to that stylist article, which I haven’t read because it is behind a paywall for me, What reasons would there be to not go to a party? Because boundaries, and I think there are some valid ones, right? So if you’re like, I have been out every night this week. I am feeling really, really worn out. I know people would like me to be there, but like, I can’t do it again. I’m tapped out.And I have decided in my life that when I feel like this, I need to say no to things. . I think that’s a valid reason to not go to a party, but I imagine that’s not the only reason people are using when they’re saying, I have boundaries.[00:16:01] Rowan: I can think of another good reason, you know, maybe if there was somebody there, like, an ex or, an ex friend or you knew somebody was going to be there.and it was going to make the whole night just really awful. There are two ways to go about that. One is, I’m gonna step away from that and not go tonight. Maybe it’s really fresh, maybe you’re just not mentally up to it, right? I mean, there’s lots of reasons for that, and certainly, you know, no judgment.And then the other thing might be, you know what? I don’t wanna have to avoid this person the rest of my life, so I’m gonna push myself. Through that uncomfortableness. Right? And just go anyway and do it. But also it’s okay to have some boundaries around what constitutes saying yes to a night out.I know for me, I have boundaries around social media use. I have a list and I know these are the reasons I’m going to be on social media and anything else is not serving me. And adds nothing to my life. And so I’m not gonna do that. And that’s because I’ve already played that game for years and years where I did those things and I learned that those things just exhaust me and stress me out.So, because I’ve done that enough and I’ve known that like I’m not gonna grow from this. you know, if I just reply to troll comments, if I go seeking out drama, if I spend too much time online, if I’m seeking validation online, like those sorts of things just don’t serve me.I’ve done them enough to know that there’s no amount of growing or anything positive I’m gonna get out of it, so I’m not gonna do it. I think the same can be applied sometimes where it’s like. You know, if you have really bad knees, hiking’s not gonna be for you probably, right?So even if people that you like are gonna go hiking, even if it’s a great way to meet new people, maybe that’s not your scene and that’s okay. Or if there’s a group of people that go to this thing that you’re really interested in and you really don’t, vibe with them. Like you just don’t, no matter what, they’re just really not your people.And you’ve tried that. I think it’s okay to skip that one. Or you really like your friend, but you know that their group of friends that doesn’t involve you, you just really don’t like them at all. I think that’s okay. Like it’s okay to have some things, but I think what this article’s trying to say is that it’s very easy for our brains to come up.With excuses not to push ourselves to do things sometimes, and the way to justify that sometimes can be, well, it’s a boundary for me, and that’s what we have to get really real with ourselves. Is this a boundary? And is it really serving me? ‘cause a boundary’s supposed to protect us. So not just in the short term, like Yeah, no, I just don’t really feel like getting out my pajamas.Okay. sometimes, okay, that’s all right. But if we’re doing that a lot, like a lot, a lot, in the long term, people are inviting us out a lot less, and we’re really starting to feel closed off from the world. Is that boundary as we call it, is that really helping us? So that’s where that nuance is, and it’s going to be different for everybody.[00:19:20] Lara: Yeah, we’ve got the push and pull, right? Like we’ve got what makes us uncomfortable, what we don’t wanna do. I think a boundary generally is something that is pre-thought out, right? So it’s not like in the moment I don’t want to do something, somebody pushes me and I’m like, this is a boundary I’m putting up.Like, maybe. But most of the time it’s something that you’ve thought about and you’re like, this is a really big deal in my life, and so I need to create this boundary. And. I do think it gets overused as a result, and I do think that we need to do a little bit of reflection on what we want. So not only is it, you know, where I was saying we need to get a bit uncomfortable, but we need to be willing to get uncomfortable to grow.but what do you want out of life? If you’re looking to have a great group of friends?Is the boundary never going out, or is it like I need to look in different places because the people I’m friends with are not really the ones I like. Again, that’s not a boundary. That’s like, turns out you don’t like the people you know, and you need to do something different to find people you do like.Right? Like that’s not a boundary. It’s a different thing.[00:20:28] Rowan: Yeah.[00:20:29] Lara: So how do we. Decide. I mean, some of it is, it’s part of this feeling of what do I want? Taking time to think about it. So as coaches, I think that’s a lot of what we’re actually doing. People don’t come to me, generally speaking, with the goal of setting boundaries.The goal is to feel better about something. The goal is to. Whether it’s business or life, feel better about how things are going and to look through what it is that they want to achieve. Are they looking for more ease? Are they looking for more connection? Are they looking to make more money? Whatever it is that they’re doing?When you have a sense of where you’re trying to go, then you can start to figure out what you need to do and you can start to figure out what you don’t want to do to get there and what your rules and. Guidelines are gonna be to get there, and that’s where I think this comes in, right? It’s not just about don’t let people tell you what to do.It’s about. Being really intentional with your life. And I think that that’s one of the best words that covers so many things when I talk to people is be intentional. Don’t let life happen to you. Don’t let the world tell you how you need to live life, but be intentional about what you want and you don’t want, and then start to work on figuring out what you need to do to get there.[00:21:55] Rowan: Yeah. And I know a lot of people are saying how lonely they are and that’s why all these studies are coming up, right? Because there is a lot of talk about how we are more connected than we ever have been in the sense that I can text you, Lara, four and a half hours away and you can text me back and , we can have these podcasts and go online and like there’s all these different ways where we can talk to people, but.We’re not necessarily engaging in meaningful ways out in the world. I also think that one of the things I’d really like to remind people is. Nobody’s perfect.[00:22:36] Lara: What?[00:22:37] Rowan: Yeah, I know. I know. Even me, even, honestly, especially me, the amount of people when I had my health scare a few weeks ago, gosh, it hasn’t even been a few weeks, but It’s been like two I think since I found out. I don’t in fact have cancer, which is fantastic, but I was really shut down for a good month there and people would text me or email me and I was dropping balls everywhere. I was hardly able to respond to anyone. It took all of my energy just to get through a day while I was waiting to find out just how my life was gonna go and.I’m so glad that nobody got upset with me because I know that that could have come across in various ways of people. Rowan doesn’t care about me. Rowan’s being disrespectful. Rowan doesn’t wanna do anything. Rowan has moved on with his life because I didn’t tell a lot of people what was going on.I didn’t wanna have to explain the unknown to everybody. I wanted to wait for answers and then figure out what to do from there. And if anybody got upset with me, who cares about me? Nobody showed it. And I’m so grateful, and that’s a lesson that I’m taking. Along with me into the future. I mean, I kind of knew that already.I’ve always given people a lot of grace when it comes to not getting back to me about something or, ghosting me for a while or whatever, because I’ve realized that we all have lives and that everybody’s life is complex in its own way and stressful in its own way. And if. People expected perfection from me.If one of their boundaries that they said boundaries and air quotes perhaps, or boundaries, real boundaries. And that’s entirely up to individuals. But if one of theirs was, people need to get back to me within 24 hours, you know, or whatever it might be. I would’ve lost a lot of friends, you know, , and not because I was trying to be toxic, right?Or trying to be disrespectful, however you wanna phrase that. But really just because I was struggling so, so hard, so just remember when we are reading this onslaught of messaging around. Your friends should treat you this way, and people who care about you will always treat you this way. there is nuance in that too.And yeah, nobody should treat you terribly. That’s unacceptable. people should not be going outta the way to hurt other people. And obviously we do have to set some boundaries to protect ourselves, but I have seen a lot of articles like that where it’s like, Does your friend take forever to get back to you?Are they really a friend? You know, that sort of thing. And it, doesn’t mean they don’t care about you. It usually doesn’t mean that, it usually means that they’re going through something and instead of getting upset with them, it might be good to say, Hey, I haven’t heard from you in a while.Are you doing okay? I’m worried about you.[00:25:40] Lara: Yeah. I think another way to talk about boundaries in this. Conversation is what is a non-negotiable for you? And I think that there are a few things that are non-negotiable for me. I can’t make everything non, non-negotiable. Like if I said it’s non-negotiable about everything to people, like first of all, nobody would want to be friends with me ‘cause that sucks.[00:26:03] Rowan: Yep.[00:26:03] Lara: But also that doesn’t give me wiggle room. It doesn’t give me the ability to figure out what’s going on. And I think there should be some things that are really, important to you and that you’ve figured out what those are, and they are non-negotiable. And sometimes we just need to go with the flow.Sometimes there are things that we don’t love that we do. As long as it doesn’t hurt, like I don’t want anybody thinking I’m suggesting go be miserable because that’s how you grow. no. Right? Like we’re not talking about being miserable. We’re talking about the little things that, does that matter as much as you’re saying it does, or will letting some of this sign of slide, letting some of this run its course is going to help you get to the next step of what you want in life.But then you need to know where you’re trying to go, right? Like that’s part of goal setting as a business coach. That part of my life as a business owner and helping other businesses figure out their goals. It’s not something people do well because people set goals that are really, in my opinion, not goals.They’re just like actions they wanna do. To me, a goal is about thinking about what is meaningful to you? What is like the overall meaningful outcome that you want? And I think we should be doing that business or no business to figure out what we are trying to achieve in our lives.[00:27:27] Rowan: When I’m setting a boundary, I like to ask myself why I am setting it, because the answer will tell me whether or not I should look at that further.So if, for example, my boundary is I will not tolerate people yelling at me. I will not engage in that conversation. If they start to yell, I will walk away. Well, that’s directly related to the trauma that I’ve experienced in my own life, and a massive feeling of unsafety like just not feeling safe is unsafe.A word. It’s word now,[00:28:02] Lara: why not?[00:28:03] Rowan: Sure, sure. But like a feeling of not being safe and a feeling of the conversation devolving to a point where we can’t have a conversation at all because tempers are too flared. And so that’s when I will end that conversation and resume it possibly, depending on what kind of relationship it is, if it’s a stranger encounter or if it’s somebody that I am, in a relationship with,I will come back to that at a later time when we are more level headed. But if my boundary is something like, again, I’ll go back to this example ‘cause I used it before. If my friend doesn’t text me back within 24 hours, they’re not my friend. What is that about? And maybe somebody has a really good reason and that’s important to them, and that is non-negotiable.And I’m not gonna tell you what should or shouldn’t be for me, if that were my thing, it would be directly related to my fear of abandonment. Because I have been abandoned before in that sense. I’ve had people just up and leave. you know, my own father left when I was, very young and I never got to know him.And , it sort of sets the stage for feeling unwanted. So at that point, if I know that that’s actually what’s going on, then I’m making. What’s happening inside me about someone else. And so maybe at that point, two things. One, I have a conversation with people I love and say, Hey, by the way, if you can get back to me more quickly, that’s fantastic.because it helps me to know, because I have a certain attachment style or whatever that I’m, you know, gonna feel safer and it’s gonna help us in our relationship, so great. But also it allows me to do a bit of work on me and go, what’s actually going on is I don’t wanna feel alone and I don’t wanna feel like somebody doesn’t care about me.So I. Maybe there’s some other ways that I can nurture myself and work on myself, , and so it really is , that why component is so important when it comes to those boundaries. For me, it is everything. If it is about safety, then that boundary is non-negotiable. Always, always, always, always.If it is not about safety, that boundary may not. Need to be as rigid as it is.[00:30:25] Lara: Yeah. we first brought this topic up during the, episode about lateness, and I happen to have today, the day that we’re recording this, just listen to that episode, so it’s very fresh for me. But one of the things that came up was this whole, it’s not actually about you.So when somebody’s late, it’s not really that they’re trying to just be disrespectful to you. There’s times where it’s just not about you. There’s something else going on, and I think this is what we’re saying, right? Not everything that somebody does that sucks is disrespectful it’s not about you.[00:30:58] Rowan: Yeah,[00:30:59] Lara: It might suck, but it’s not necessarily specifically them trying to do something to you or not caring about you, and starting to think about that and knowing the distinctions can really help.[00:31:12] Rowan: These are all things that I wish I had known in my twenties especially.When I burned so many bridges and I did it because, you know, at the time. When I ended some friendships, I really thought that it was all them, right? They were doing this and I went to, drug and alcohol rehab when I was 14.And so I grew up quite literally in self-help culture, which is not a bad thing. I learned a lot about myself, but. I think I also went to the extreme of this victim mentality where when people did things, I did make it about me. So if somebody didn’t get back to me, and when I said that about that fear of abandonment, like I don’t have that issue now, but I did, and texting wasn’t really a thing back then.It wasn’t something that I engaged in anyway. It happened, but it wasn’t very common yet. But just, people not calling me or somebody forgetting my birthday , I remember just getting so hurt by that and making it all about me and.I don’t think my expectations were necessarily fair a lot of the time. Sometimes I did have a friendship or some kind of relationship that really wasn’t healthy, and it wasn’t healthy in part because of me, but a lot of it was their behaviors and I had to let those go. But there were other times where I think that if I could go back and have a conversation with my younger self, I’d be like, Hey.Give a little more grace because this person is figuring their s**t out too. You are, and they are. And so expecting perfection from somebody else when you yourself are not a perfect person, that’s a recipe for disaster. It’s unfair.[00:33:11] Lara: Yeah, for sure. I think that ultimately, what I’m. Taking from this conversation, or what I’m hoping people take is that we need to remember that life is always changing, that we need to think about what works for us.We don’t need to get stuck in. Ruts. We don’t need to get stuck in, I said this once, so I have to stick to it for the rest of my life. that we remember that not everything that happens is about us, or that people mean badly when they do things. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. And so it’s just about taking the time to say, if I’m not happy, is there anything I can do to change?Not. Why does everybody suck in my life? Keep continuing to suck, but like what can I do to position myself in a way that I can go towards a goal I really want in a way that’s going to work for me?[00:34:09] Rowan: The world right now is a very dark place for a lot of people. And I know I’m struggling with it, and I am one of the more positive people I know every day I have to.Remind myself like, okay, you can get outta bed and find these moments of joy and try and bring these moments of joy to other people. And, I’m largely successful in that. But with a world this difficult already, it is really important not to make it harder on ourselves and not to allow that darkness to creep in too much, not allow that loneliness and the heaviness.Of what’s going on. Keep us from that forward momentum. Keep us from going out and meeting new people, keeping us from trying new things. I know from firsthand experience, I am a trans man in 2025, a visible trans man in 2025. I know how hard it is to just leave the house sometimes, but. If I just stayed home all the time because this was my safe place, I wouldn’t get all the positive experiences.I wouldn’t have met all the people that I meet. I wouldn’t be able to experience the joy. Like just walking down the street yesterday, my partner and I went to a farmer’s market and I said, stop. Look at these roses right here in somebody’s yard, like right by the sidewalk. I bet they smell beautiful, and we literally.Two trans people stopped and smelled the roses.And it was worth every second we took to do that. So I just don’t want to see anybody stop living because it all feels like too much. So push yourselves a little bit if you can. And when you can’t, that’s okay too. Cocoon. Cocoon. And have grace for the people in your lives because they’re all going through it in their own ways.Whether they’re telling you or not. Everybody’s going through stuff right now. So if we could all just remember to be kind to ourselves and to each other. It makes such a big difference. Wow. I feel like a youth pastor right now. I’m, that’s me. You’re a trans guy, youth pastor. But seriously, just remember , These are the times when we grow in adversity. So, yeah, push yourself a little bit[00:36:35] Lara: and if you are feeling lonely, think about the places that do feel good and think about how you can make sure you go there and you take the time, even when you’re uncomfortable to move forward there and come to the comments and tell us, what it is that you may be struggling with or what it is that has worked for you because we want to hear.[00:36:56] Rowan: And what is the name of my church if I’m a youth pastor? Like, feel free to give me one ‘cause I, I can’t come up with one off the top of my head.[00:37:05] Lara: Let’s hear it.[00:37:06] Rowan: Thanks for joining us today. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

For some of us, getting older follows a specific pattern that includes marriage, children, career advancement, and retirement. But what if some or all of those things don’t happen? What does aging look like then?This week, Lara and Rowan sit down with Julie Broczkowski, a psychotherapist who, in many respects, has defied the standard approach to getting older. After listening to some of our previous podcast chats about aging, Julie had some things to say. We’re glad she said them, and we think you will be, too. There is no one way to age. Isn’t that the best news?Who is Julie?Julie Broczkowski is an introvert, a cat person, and psychotherapist (which is her third career) and she loves to read and walk in the woods. She describes herself as “non-standard in many different directions”, which has definitely affected how she perceives aging. When we said on the first aging podcast that we might do more, she immediately messaged us, volunteering to talk about it.LinksJulie’s websiteJulie on InstagramUnboxing It episode on FairnessUnboxing It episode on adultingTranscript(please note that these are not carefully edited and may have some errors)[00:00:00] Julie: it is hard to step off because when people have these really strong expectations of how you’re gonna be. it can feel really hard and you fear that rejection, you fear that rejection so much. But I think the more marginalized we become, the more different we are than people on the track, the more we’re able to see the wider picture. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.[00:00:47] Rowan: And I’m Rowan,and as previously promised, we are going to talk some more about aging, which other than like how cool I think brains are is obviously my new favorite topic. How getting older isn’t so bad. Maybe just to comfort myself, but that’s okay.I’m with you on that one.[00:01:07] Lara: Right?[00:01:08] Rowan: Yeah, I’m getting older too.[00:01:09] Lara: Well, we’re doing it together. And I also would say that it’s one of the things that I hear back from other people about like, oh, I have something to say about that. I have something to add to this conversation because I think it’s such a big topic.And we all have feelings about it. And I think we’re starting to understand that we don’t need to have some of the feelings we used to have. So when we did our very first episode about aging, I think we said, Hey, we wanna do this more. If anybody has thoughts, let us know. And my friend Julie, who is on the podcast with us today, and I’m gonna formally introduce her in a minute, almost immediately, was like, I have things to say.And I was like, and I wanna hear them. Julie and I have been friends for longer than I ever can remember, 15 years maybe. We met on Twitter back in the day when I enjoyed Twitter, and we became real life friends. She only lived like a. 10 minute walk from me at the time, which is one of the beautiful things about the internet.You can make real life friends, and she is somebody who I have learned a lot from over the years because she’s opened my eyes to new ways of thinking in so many different areas. And so I’m always excited to hear her point of view and to just talk to her. So welcome, Julie. I’m so glad you’re here.[00:02:33] Julie: So glad to be here.[00:02:34] Lara: I will now do the formal reading, the bio part so everybody can find out a bit more about you. Julie Broczkowski is an introvert, a cat person, and psychotherapist, which is her third career, she loves to read and walk in the woods. She describes herself as non-standard in many different directions, which has definitely affected how she perceives aging.[00:02:56] Lara: welcome Julie. I’m so glad to have you here. You did immediately talk to me about wanting to say more. And I think it’s because you’ve had a lot of experiences and thoughts about this topic. What was the thing that first made you think, oh, let’s talk about this.[00:03:15] Julie: Well, it was sort of that non-standard thing because when you guys had talked about aging, had sort of gone through all the milestones that I would say average or.I guess typical people go through and I had not gone through a lot of them, so while it resonated with me in some ways, in a lot of ways it didn’t. So I kind of wanted to talk about those differences and those people on the margins of the social contract of aging and the ways that it is maybe more in control.By us than we think it’s that we don’t necessarily have to go through all those milestones[00:03:55] Lara: I love that because I think that there are a lot of people, including me, who sort of just trucked along doing a lot of the things in the order we were supposed to do them, and then I kind of got off the path.But there are a lot of people who. Don’t do that all along. And there are people who I think might wish they could have done things differently but didn’t think they could. And so having the conversation from all the different directions and just opening up people’s eyes to what is possible and what you can actually do.I think there’s the, you can do that thing that comes up sometimes for people andyou don’t know what you don’t know[00:04:32] Julie: exactly.Yeah, I think that a lot of these milestones that we hit, getting married, having kids empty nest, having grandchildren, you know, all those things sort of define how a lot of people choose to live their lives.I’m married now, I have to act like this. I’m a mom now, or a dad now I have to act like this. I can’t do these things anymore. I have to grow up. But I also can’t do the things ahead of time. You know, if you’re in your twenties and you’re knitting, it’s like, oh, I’m in my grandma ears. This is such a grandma thing to do. It’s like, no, you’re someone in your twenties. You’re doing it. It’s a twenties thing to do. That’s how I feel. ‘cause I mean, I did get married, I got married actually a lot younger than a lot of my peers. And there are things in that , that differentiated me from them.I grew up in a small place. When I moved to the city, I had already been married for a few years and all of my peers in the city were not. I got married when I was 24. My peers were getting married when they were 29, 30, that kind of thing. And something as simple as geography can change the way that we moved through these things.[00:05:42] Julie: I didn’t have kids so I didn’t go through that young mom stage. And then the empty nest stage and then the grandparent stage, you know, these are all things that just kind of, went by on the other track for me. Where they are so fundamental to how people think of themselves, how people define themselves, and how people choose to act.Like I say, you know, once you get to be a mom, you can’t, do X... I don’t know, post thirst traps on the internet, just as an example. You know, there’s things like that. So, there’s all these things that I didn’t necessarily feel the pressure of. and the other thing is that for the past 10 years I’ve been going to university part-time and full-time.I did two degrees. And so most of the people that I have spent time with over the last 10 years have been younger than me, including most of the professors and oftentimes significantly younger than me, like 30 or more years younger than me. And we were peers. So I learned all the lingo, I know all the internet memes, you know, I’m constantly explaining these to people my age.what on earth is that? It’s like, oh, oh, I know, yeah. It’s just the, idea that you can place yourself in different areas along the spectrum. You don’t have to follow the track.[00:07:02] Rowan: I think anytime we disruptthe norm, if you will, it can really throw us into this sort of identity crisis for some of us.for me, my ex and I had a baby when I was 20 years old. and suddenly I’m a new parent. At 20 to this child, I’m still a child in a lot of ways, and now I’m looking after a child. And if you had taken us back, you know. A hundred years, 200 years, that’d be very normal to have a child at that age there’s a reason that 20 year olds can go party all night and then get up for work the next day because they have the stamina to also be up all night with a newborn and still function and feed themselves and their families the next day.So, had that component, but it also was really strange because none of my friends had children. A lot of the people who had children were significantly older than me and then couldn’t really relate to me because I was so young. We bought our first house when I was 22 years old, and now we’re living in a new sub development with all these people who are.10 years older than us, probably at the youngest, a lot of them. And so we didn’t really know our neighbors very well. And so the minute that you put yourself in that situation where I’m not doing the thing that other people my age are doing, whether that’s significantly younger or significantly older, it really does throw off that social contract.And then you have to. Find out what that means to you and how to make it work.[00:08:43] Julie: Yeah, you definitely get some static from the people who are on the track, and I think, especially from the people who are on the track and are not super happy on the track, you know.[00:08:53] Rowan: Well, let’s go into that a little bit.what do you mean by that?[00:08:56] Julie: I think that there are people who don’t think a lot about these things and just do what they feel like they’re supposed to do. What everyone their age is doing, what other people expect them to do.I mean, that’s another big thing is that we put these expectations on people of what they should be acting like. And my favorite absolutely non-important example of this is once I turned 40, I started getting so many scarves as gifts. I don’t wear scarves, but apparently that’s the appropriate gift for a 40-year-old lady.[00:09:36] Lara: I’m really glad nobody thought that about me ‘cause I also do not wear scarves.[00:09:40] Rowan: Oh, I got a lot of scarves too, around that age before transition. People got me so many scarves. Now they get me ties, which, I mean, I like ties, but how often am I gonna wear one? So I have a closet full of ties. I have like 30 ties.I wear one like once a year.[00:09:58] Julie: So yeah. So there’s this expectation that we should follow along and. I think a lot of people just do that without thinking about what they really want. So I think a lot of people walk around not thinking about what they really want. They think about what’s easiest, what’s expected of them, what’s acceptable.they just do the thing that seems easiest at the moment, but then you get into it and you marry the person that you happen to be dating when you’re 26 years old. Who is maybe not the person that you really want to marry, but all your friends are getting married and people are saying, oh, when are you getting married?And you’re dating this person and they’re perfectly nice and there’s no reason why you shouldn’t marry them. Like no big red flags. So you marry them and you do the thing that all your friends do, and then you find out that it’s like, yeah, maybe I don’t wanna live with this person for the next 60 years of my life.Then it’s a failure, you know, again, viewed by society. But society made you do it in the first place because you didn’t listen to yourself. And I think the people who end up in that situation are often the people that push back against those of us who don’t follow the track the most because they want us on the track.Because if we chose to get off the track. They could have too, and they didn’t.[00:11:21] Lara: Yeah. If I had to do it this way, why don’t you have to do it this way? That’s not fair. If I had to go into the office every day, why do you get to work from home? Go to the office? Like, there’s so many examples of that.[00:11:36] Julie: Yeah.and when those are people that you love and you care about and , you care about their acceptance. It’s not always the easiest calculation to make. And you know, I have empathy for it, but it’s also,in some ways they did it the easy way and I did it the hard way.‘cause, I mean, in the end it turned out I could not have children. But I knew when I was eight years old, I did not wanna have children. and I never changed my mind. You know, that was 45 years ago. I still haven’t changed my mind. And the static, you know, one of the best things about being in my fifties that nobody asks me that anymore.When I was in my thirties, that was like the first question, do you have kids? No. When are you gonna have some?[00:12:21] Rowan: They would just go right out and ask you when are you going to have some?[00:12:25] Julie: , Maybe not quite that bluntly, but I mean, I know a lot of people, English isn’t their first language and sometimes they just come out with things like that.But yeah, some people would be like, oh, I bet your parents would make really great grandparents things like that.[00:12:39] Rowan: Oh my God.Wow. Wow. , But people do that for everything. Like, before my middle child transitioned, and before we adopted our daughter who we adopted, when she was a teenager, we had what the world saw and like what I thought was three boys.And even after one boy, but especially after two or three, the amount of people who would say to me, are you gonna try for a girl? Are you trying for a girl? Oh, I bet you would love a daughter, wouldn’t you? Right. It was the weirdest thing to me because it’s like. Do you not think? I’m just grateful to have kids.Like I wanted kids. Now I have kids. I don’t care what their gender is, but, this is the social contract. And when people have one boy and one girl, people go, oh, that’s the perfect family. Why? Why is that the perfect family? So yeah, this is the standard that we all hold each other to.And I have heard from other friends who are childless largely by choice and some who simply cannot have children and wanted them, that have to endure this type of questioning that you’ve had to endure. It must be really. Challenging to feel. I don’t wanna presume how you have felt.Some of my friends have described as feeling like they have to get defensive about it, and, and there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to have children or not having children.[00:14:06] Julie: Yeah. And some people can get really pushy with it. Like, I had a friend of my husband’s when, all his friends except for one, have kids.And so, you know, we’re all together at a barbecue or whatever, and I’m, playing with the babies, and they’re like, oh, Julie, you’re so good with the babies. And I’m like, this is 20 minutes and I haven’t even changed a diaper and I got nine hours of sleep last night. So this is not the evidence you think it is.but yeah, it did get wearing and did get defensive about it sometimes and in the end, for medical reasons, I had a hysterectomy when I was 33 and it became a lot easier after that. ‘cause as soon as you say that, everybody feels sorry for you and they shut up and they don’t push it, which still didn’t sit right with me.But it was easier than fighting with, my parents’ friends from 40 years ago, you know, that they went to high school with, or whoever was being pushy about it at that moment,So as soon as I said that, they’re like, oh, okay. You know, I’m not gonna be pushy about this.She can’t help it, which is not true, but it was easier because that is one of the allowable exits off the track.[00:15:14] Lara: Which comes to that non-standard piece that we’re talking about. It’s whenever we decide or desire something nonstandard, there’s probably gonna be some pushback and that comes in so many different stages of life.It comes in so many different ages of life, and we all get to decide what we want, when we want it. And like, that’s it.[00:15:37] Julie: That’s a big,blasphemous statement to some people.[00:15:40] Lara: It is,[00:15:41] Julie: you know, that really, they can’t deal.And I think, Lara, you’re right when you said that they feel like, well, I had to do that. What do you mean I didn’t have to do that? as a psychologist, I will say that. People admitting that they were wrong is one of the hardest things people will do. So much mental gymnastics to not admit that they made a mistake.And , having a child is not necessarily a mistake, but it’s also not something that they would have. Chosen in their heart of hearts without all this societal pressure, so it becomes easier to double down and triple down. You know that joke about where the parent says, it’s like, oh, having kids is so rough.You should definitely do it.It reminds me of that thing where it’s like, this smells terrible here. You smell it.[00:16:33] Lara: And while it’s a slight tangent, from aging, sort of, I think just the discussion about the children question is a good one.We did an episode not that long ago , Rowan and I gave our 2 cents about whether or not it’s fine to not want children, but as two people with children, knew we wanted to at some point have a conversation, and this isn’t a whole episode, but with people, who didn’t have children, because that is a different perspective.But I think understanding, like, yeah, I didn’t wanna have children. That’s it. I didn’t wanna have children, and people don’t need to try to convince people that they’re going to regret it if they don’t. And so I’m glad we touched on that a little bit.[00:17:13] Julie: Yeah. And. Like I said, the first time I really had the conscious thought that I did not wanna have children, I was seven or eight years old, is when my mother was pregnant with my brother, and[00:17:23] Lara: That looks terrible![00:17:25] Julie: Yes. I had zero interest. Like, I did not care. And everybody else was like, oh, you’re gonna get a little brother, and I’m like, mm-hmm.And you know, it seemed awful. Like I can remember that he was born in March and we went skating that winter and my mom couldn’t go skating ‘cause she was like seven, eight months pregnant. And I thought that was so sad for her. It’s like all these things that pregnant people can’t do. And I mean, my own birth.Was a horror story. My mother was in labor with me for like 54 hours or something and it’s like, no, like I always had like this physical revulsion against pregnancy, like zero interest and that still continues. I still think it’s really weird. I don’t like touching pregnant people’s bellies.That seems terrible to me. Youknow, I, no,[00:18:18] Rowan: And that’s okay.[00:18:20] Julie: Yeah. feeling that way. I should absolutely not be a person who has children.[00:18:25] Rowan: Right. Exactly. And I mean, like, when I was younger, I think because our first baby was an oops baby. Now, of course we had options, but we decided, my ex and I together, that we wanted to have this baby.And I have no regrets about that. He’s a fantastic human being. and we went on to have more children, which is what I wanted as well. And it was really hard. We had a really hard time as parents in some ways, but also we’ve. Produce these amazing humans, and I’m so proud and I love watching them grow up.So it’s all good. But there was a time in my life where I got defensive. When I saw people who were very proudly childless by choice, and it was very easy for me to label people, selfish, you know, very easy for me to label people, as lazy , you know, as immature. And that was in my twenties, right?Because I was really trying to justify my own decisions to myself and I didn’t feel secure in them, and so. It was much easier to project that on someone like you, Julie, rather than look inward and really examine my own feelings about that. That takes some maturity. That took me a little while, and I think I read something recently that said only about 10% of people are truly self-aware, and, you would know this more than I would, so please correct me if I’m wrong, and that out of that only a certain percentage of people will actually go.choose to work on themselves, and push outta that comfort zone. So it’s like, it took me a long time to get there, but I think age, no matter how you arrive, whether you have children or not. Bringing it back to age now, ‘cause we’ve talked about kids a lot, but I think aging. With it brings to me, I felt, has brought me a great deal of wisdom and I look back on where I was before and I go, Eugh.But you know, like, oh wow, I had some growing to do. I know I’m gonna look back on where I am now in five years ago. Ooh, yeah, I had some growing to do, right? Because it has been consistently that way my entire life. I don’t think that you need to. Have gone through the typical steps that society lays out for you in order to grow as a person.And in fact, I would say that if you subscribed to certain ways of living that you didn’t really want deep down. It can leave you quite stuck and then you wouldn’t grow in a way that maybe if you had just allowed yourself to be who you are and step off the treadmill if you will, and walk on the grass beside it.That would facilitate that growth?[00:21:11] Julie: Yeah. I think sometimes people think that they have to go all the way back to where they made the choice. And of course time is linear and ever moving forward. So we can really never go back to where we made that choice and they don’t feel like they can just step off.And it is hard to step off because when people have these really strong expectations of how you’re gonna be. it can feel really hard and you fear that rejection, you fear that rejection so much. But I think the more marginalized we become, the more different we are than people on the track, the more we’re able to see the wider picture.‘ cause when you’re on the track, all you can see is the track. Especially when most people are on it with you, but as soon as you step off the track, you get to see all the way around and you become more open, like you said, Rowan, about being more open to people who don’t have children and why they might not, as you become more aware of people who are in that situation who have chosen that situation.And see them as equivalents rather than, somebody different than you. You can imagine, maybe there was, an alternate dimension where I didn’t have children. This is a possibility. Seeing the possibilities is a big part of it, and I think the more marginalized you become.The more possibilities you see. And it’s just sort of like a snowball.[00:22:37] Lara: I’m curious from your experience, ‘cause you’ve got this interesting experience, having decided to go back to school and then suddenly hanging out with all these young folks, including the professors.Do you see it changing? Like so we’re all around ish the same age? you know, we came up. Gen X. And I think that does inform a lot of things for us. Do you see differences in those who are younger in terms of them not feeling as attached to the rules of society and how things are changing?[00:23:07] Julie: Yeah, I think so.And I think you folks had talked about that in your podcast on adulting, is that sometimes the opportunities simply aren’t there. But I think society has kind of shifted that buying your first house is not necessarily the milestone that it used to be. And same with having kids getting a real job, instead of doing two or three different things or, working five years at one company and moving to another company.And I mean, it’s just. The way that things are shifting. I think back to like comparing my parents who were, very early boomers and Gen X and then the kids now is that, my parents, each went to one year of post-secondary education. They went back to their tiny little town and immediately got jobs They kept those same careers for the rest of their lives. My mom was a teacher. She was even offered, would you like to teach grade one or grade five? Like there wasn’t even much of a competition. And then, you know, when I was that age, I was still like four years from finishing school.Then when I did graduate, it took me like a year and a half to find a job and I had to move to a big city. But, you know, I had a job that I could have kept for a long time. I could have worked in that field for a while. And then the kids today are like totally expecting to have two jobs or a side hustle or, Work, freelance Or, you know, start their own businesses. There’s just a lot more options, but it’s a lot harder to have that stability that even we had and then that definitely our parents had. So I think those kinds of things have changed where the aging markers are. I mean, my mom got married when she was 19 and I got married when I was 24. And the kids now are like, not even getting married.I don’t think it’s ever static and I think sometimes the people on the track feel like it is.Again, if I had to go through this, you have to go through this too. Why aren’t you going through the same thing that I’m going through? I saw something about this, I can’t even remember where that we don’t just want to feel like we are able to get what we want. We also want to feel normal.[00:25:19] Rowan: Ooh, wow. Yeah.[00:25:22] Julie: I think, that’s why as we see. things changing politically. It’s these people who not only want what they want, they want what they want for everyone. And it’s because they wanna feel normal. And I think in past times societies were a lot more homogenous.You know, back when we had four channels. Everybody watched the same tv, everybody went to the same movies. all this kind of stuff you know, everything seemed very similar and so you could feel really normal. And now there’s, furry cons and 17 streaming services and nobody at work can talk about your show ‘cause nobody’s watching it and you don’t feel normal anymore.[00:26:03] Lara: And I think, fitting in has always been a big one, and it’s, the distinction I like to talk about is we don’t always need to fit in. I don’t want to fit in anymore, even though it’s what I tried to do forever. I want to find places where I belong. And fitting in is just trying to shove yourself into normal.And belonging is finding the people that get you for who you are[00:26:25] Julie: and that youresonate with.[00:26:26] Lara: Yeah. And I think it’s harder for some of the older generation to remember that it’s not the same for the younger generation. Right. Like, I did it Okay, but it’s not the same now. Yeah. Or, I wanted that.I’m like, well, did you, or did you never even ask yourself if you wanted that, and you just, you know, chugged along. And so yeah, it’s changing it, and I hope that some of it is circumstantial for the younger generation that they can’t just easily do the thing, but I’m hoping that there’s also some of it that’s really about saying like, I don’t want that,and that’s okay.[00:27:00] Julie: Yeah. I mean, and don’t get me wrong, I did a lot of things not on the track, but I was a homeowner with a yard for 20 years. I never used my yard. The only time I ever went out into it was to mow it, to appease the, homeowners society. And when I finally figured that out, I was in my late forties, but I sold my house and bought an apartment and I’ve lived in apartments ever since.Even though I was really strong on some things, I still fell prey to that, you have to get a house. You can’t just live in an apartment for the rest of your life. That wasn’t a conscious thing and nobody ever said that to me, but that was definitely an expectation.And then I stepped off the track.[00:27:45] Rowan: I know a couple of things about stepping off the track too.[00:27:48] Julie: You do![00:27:50] Rowan: I went from owning a home at 22. To selling my home at 47. My last home bought three of them. Right. one after the other, not all at the same time. And now I rent. And is there insecurity in renting?Absolutely. There’s insecurity in renting. Right? Your landlord can come and say, Hey, we’re not gonna renew your lease for this reason, or whatever it might be. The rent is going up. My rent has gone up every year. Right? on the other hand. I live in an old Victorian house that is absolutely way more beautiful than anything I’ve ever lived in because the architecture is fantastic and if anything goes wrong with it, it’s not my problem.And he is great at fixing things. So I also get to live exactly where I want to live, which is very central Toronto. I can walk to everything and. That is the trade off. And a lot of people would think at my age, I’m almost 50, that that would be a huge step backwards. But I see it as a win. That’s a win for me.I’m actually not tied down to anything. Well, now I’m gonna be opening a business. But other than that, I can move around, I can choose. If this is too big for me, I can choose very, very easily and with a very specific timeline to move to something smaller or move to a different part of town and experience that.So I think my next question for you is, let’s say somebody thinks to themselves, okay, I’m listening here and I’m gonna be honest with myself. The things that I’ve been doing up until now are not really what I wanted to do. and there are some things I can’t change. Like maybe when I think about, maybe if I’m really honest with myself, I didn’t wanna settle down and have a family, but I do have a family now, right?and now I’m getting older. What are some of the things that you think people could do as steps to unpack this feeling of, let’s say, regret? Because there might be some regret, and discontent and think about how they could build the last part of their life in a way that’s more authentic to them.[00:30:10] Julie: Well, one of my favorite psychological techniques is imagining that two things can be true at the same time. So you can enjoy your life, not regret anything, but also want to change. Wanting to make a change does not equal. You made a mistake. Wanting to make a change does not equal. You are wrong. you know, you’re stupid.You made a wrong choice. You can be a valid human beingwho didn’t make a mistake and still want things to change. And you can change extremely smallthings. I mean,you can change where you get your coffee. Like, if you wanna become a person who, patronizes local coffee shops instead of the big Bucks coffee shop.[00:30:56] Rowan: Thank you for that, by the way. As somebody who’s opening a coffee shop,[00:31:00] Julie: You know, you don’t have to make a big announcement. You don’t have to come out about it. You can just start choosing to do that. And if you wanna be a person who. Has friends over.Yeah. I wish my friends would invite me over be that person, you know, and have two friends over. It doesn’t have to be a big elaborate party. It can be a very small thing. Have two friends over for coffee for an hour in one small part of your house, so you don’t have to clean up the whole thing. you know, you can, like I said, it took me 10 years.To get to the point where I had all my qualifications to become a psychotherapist, and I started with one psychology, psychology 1 0 1. Basically. I took that online before the pandemic, and then we had some medical stuff happened. I had to stop for a year, but then I started again and you can make these small changes.Wanting to make a change doesn’t mean that what you’re moving away from was a mistake. It could just mean that it’s over. It could just mean that things are different now. it’s like using the wrong tool for a job. Yeah, that screwdriver came in really handy when you were taking off the outlet covers, but now that you’re painting.That screwdriver is a really terrible paintbrush. So, it’s not like you made a mistake picking up that screwdriver that was useful to you at the time, but you can change without what you’re moving away from having been a mistake.[00:32:25] Lara: I think that’s really important , and I know I’ve caught myself in this before, when you’re like, I wanna make a change.It feels like it has to happen immediately. within a few days you’re like, why isn’t it done yet? But change doesn’t have to be this, like ripping off the bandaid. I’m, burning down my life. Let’s change everything in a minute. It can be just a little bit moving forward, just trying things, seeing if you like them because maybe you won’t, maybe you think you will.Don’t burn down the whole thing before you try it out. Like there’s all kinds of little ways that you can do things. And again, no matter how old you are, you don’t have to, Stay stuck in this is what somebody who’s 40 can do to change. This is what somebody who’s 50 can do to change. And I see it in all kinds of different ways, including some people who wanna retire early and people are like, but why?Like, what do you mean but why? Right? Like we get to just talk about things. Some of the first steps are just putting it out there that you might want the thing. You don’t have to do anything other than start saying, Hey. This is a thing I think I might want.[00:33:36] Julie: The very first thing I do anytime I think I might wanna do a thing and this is the beauty of social media, I start following appropriate social mediacontentand you know, sometimes I follow it and I’m like, Nope, I think I’m done with this now.And then I just unfollow those people. And then other times it like, gives me the confidence. It’s like, Hey, these people are putting it out there and I can do this too., Like right now , I have signed myself up for a resin art class. And so I’ve immediately started following all the Instagram resin people.And, I’m still really excited about what’s happening in November. because that exposure can change the way we think. You know, just exposing ourselves to, different things that we may wanna try and first of all, it doesn’t have to be perfect before you decide to tell anybody or do anything.And it also doesn’t have to be, like you were saying, Lara, about burning your life down. Like if you’re, thinking you’re really sick of your spouse. Like, maybe take a week vacation on your own instead of asking for a divorce. Like, just put your feet in the water a little bit before you jump in the deep end because you know, maybe you’re just really irritated today.[00:34:43] Rowan: Yeah, and I mean, there’s some responsibilities that we can’t just Nope. Out of entirely. No. Right. Like if you have children, you have children and Even if your children are adults, you’re still their parent. So , you’ve made a decision whether or not you feel it was the right.Decision or not is entirely up to you, but you made the decision and this is your family. So, there’s certainly some attachment that has to remain. So burning things all down isn’t always the best course of action, but certainly as somebody who, is now, living life as a man when I didn’t for most of my life, is no longer in a marriage where I was in that marriage for 32 years and my children are all adults.My children. Are still a big part of my life other than that, my life looks entirely different than it did three, four years ago. It is completely different. It is suited to who I am today, far more than it was, and I am looking forward to. The last few years, whatever that is. ‘cause we don’t know how long we have of my life living it in a truth that I wasn’t able to live before.But I don’t regret. The last 40 something years of my life. I really don’t, I think I learned a lot. I think that I grew a lot as a person. I think I cultivated so much love in my life that is now staying with me, throughout this phase of it. And I am, very happy with that. So weirdly enough, even though I did things by the book in so many ways for such a long time, I think I’m actually a pretty good example of somebody who can switch things up later in a way that feels better and isn’t causing a lot of hurt and disruption and pain to the peoplearound me.[00:36:40] Julie: Yeah,that you’re stepping off the track was very mindful. nothing blew up. You made that choice.[00:36:46] Rowan: Well, there’s a sense of responsibility, I mean, that’s what I’m talking about where it’s like. I also had to be mindful of the people around me.And how my decisions might affect them. And, I again, don’t regret having children. I would’ve wanted children no matter what. I think I would’ve preferred to be a dad right from the start. But that is not how things. Started, technically, I guess I was always a dad, but I mean, like I went through the whole pregnancy and birth and everything else, which wasn’t the most comfortable, but also resulted in these beautiful people.So I’m very, very happy about that. But yeah, certainly you can. Reevaluate the decisions you’ve made and go, yeah. You know, if I was born in a different time, if I had access to social media and I could have seen that trans men exist, if I knew back then that trans people could transition and also have families, wow, my life would’ve been so much different.But it wasn’t because I was born in that time. When you do certain things and very few of us were stepping off that track in places where I could see them. So I think now it’s really important remind people they have those options.[00:38:04] Julie: Exactly. That’s why representation is so important, is because you start seeing things and they start feeling more real, and they start feeling more real for you.And that there’s that joke where the algorithm knows we’re queer before we do.[00:38:20] Rowan: Yep.[00:38:21] Julie: because we are drawn to certain things and we look for this representation wherever we can find it. So that’s why representation matters is because, you know, having known that we may have made different choices.It’s okay that we didn’t, ‘cause we did the best we could with what we knew, but that doesn’t mean the choices we made were incorrect.[00:38:39] Lara: And so hopefully people listening see a bit of representation here of not having to do with the traditional, conventional way that there are options, that there are people who are.Choosing to go back to school later in life, or choosing to embrace granny crafts in a young age, whatever it is, right? there are so many options out there, and even if you haven’t witnessed somebody doing it, you can probably find somebody doing it if there’s an idea in your head. But also just being opening to hearing people’s stories.Bring things to light that you never thought you could consider. And I think that that’s one of the reasons I love doing this podcast, and I love the power of storytelling is there are definitely things in my life that would have been different when I was younger, if I had ever seen somebody explain to me that I could have.Something different until you know that it exists, how are you supposed to want it some of the time, and this is, everything about us personally and, getting to tap into what we desire and who we are and being true to that, but also in terms of age, it’s not too late.To do things, and I think that’s something that comes up. Well, now it’s too late. I would’ve loved to, but now it’s too late. And so knowing that there’s all these different options and being able to take them into consideration and figuring out how it can be a yes and two things at once situation, how it can be a little bit at a time situation.All of these things are what I’m hoping people take away from this conversation. Julie, I don’t know if you have any final thoughts that you wanna leave people with?[00:40:25] Julie: One of the things that is hardest on us psychologically is not being true to ourselves. So even imagining how hard it is to kind of go against the grain and it feels like it’s easier, it’s not easier. Both things are hard, but being true to yourself always gives you the best chance of ending up where you want.Of having the people around you that you want. Because if you’re pretending to be somebody else, you might have people around you who are invested in that person, not the real you.So then what do you do? You play that part forever. That is so hard on people. Psychologically it is so hard.and, you know, we’re talking about, people who are trans. That’s one of the reasons why when trans people are not affirmed. Their pronouns are not affirmed. Their transition is not affirmed, but they have so much higher suicide rate and that’s just a very specific example, but that’s what it is, is that not being true to yourself is so, so hard on you psychologically.So even if you feel like you’re choosing the easyway, you’re not, both things are hard. Yeah.We can do hard things.[00:41:36] Rowan: We can do hard things. Julie, thank you so much for joining us today. You have been fantastic.[00:41:43] Julie: It was wonderful to see you both.[00:41:45] Lara: I mean, you know, I always love talking to you and I always find there’s so many insightful things that I learned from you, so thank you.[00:41:53] Julie: So happy to be here. I’m glad I asked and I’m glad you let me talk. I had some thoughts.[00:41:58] Lara: Excellent. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Rowan here. I just had top surgery five days ago, so this will be a short post.But it felt like the right time to discuss bravery last week before I underwent this life-changing, gender affirming surgery. (It’s effectively a double mastectomy, which is nothing to scoff at.)Even big surgeries aside, as a trans person, I get called “brave” almost daily. But is it really brave to just, well, exist? Does it qualify if I don’t have much of a choice in the matter?Is it courageous for Lara to talk so openly about having ADHD? Is it living with neurodivergence itself that people are impressed by, or her willingness to be vulnerable about it?What does it mean to be brave, and why do we applaud it?In this candid conversation, Lara and I share our views surrounding bravery, and whether or not we feel our actions or those of others warrant that title. It’s a little more nuanced than you might think.Aaaaand that’s all I have in me. Time to go rest up again. If you have any thoughts about bravery, please comment and let us know. Learning from each other is one of the coolest parts about being human, and we’re sure you have something to teach us.Thanks for sticking with us!LinksEpisode on confidence and arroganceEpisode on how our brains are differentEpisode when we talked about Rowan’s health scare This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

“I just look at a heavy box and my throw my back out for a week” is the common joke among older people. It seems the more the years pile on, the more the pain does. We’re told that aging guarantees discomfort and a loss of mobility. But what if this was, at least, somewhat avoidable? What if chronic pain isn’t something we should assume is inevitable?This week, physiotherapist Marie Shinmoto joins the Unboxing It Team to dissect pain and stiffness in a way that absolutely blew our minds. We learn how old injuries can stick around for years until we release them, how physical and emotional trauma manifest in the body, and how a holistic view of health can make all the difference in the world—and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.You won’t want to miss Marie’s brilliant insights. We’re glad we didn’t. Do you have questions for Marie, or would you like to hear more discussions like this one? Drop us an email or leave us a comment. We’d love to hear from you!LinksMarie’s websiteBlog posts by Marie:The long-lasting effects of c-sectionCheck your alignmentDealing with old nagging injuries for goodLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on Youtube This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Remember when you were a kid and you thought people in their 20s were so grown up and put together? And people in their 40s? Positively ancient. Then, you grew up. And now, if you’re like a lot of people, you’re probably wondering when you’re going to feel as adult as you once believed everyone else felt.On this episode of Unboxing It, Lara and Rowan tackle that feeling and dig deep into what it means to “adult.” Is it really just a number, or is there more to it than that? Do we ever truly feel like grownups, or will we forever be a little lost and wishing we had a real adult around?One thing’s for sure: At almost 50, Rowan still loves being immature sometimes. Recently, he bought his partner a the weird black and white creature at a thrift store that they both now hide around the house for each other. Here it is giving a cat a piggyback ride (which is funny because we don’t know if it’s a pig or a cat itself. Maybe a cow?)LinksLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscriptPlease note these have not been edited and may have some errors[00:00:00] Lara: it’s not so much about what are the rules and when do you get there, and what are you supposed to do? It’s when am I gonna feel like I have my life together?When am I gonna feel like I’ve figured it all out?[00:00:36] Rowan: Hey there. Welcome to unboxing it I’m Rowan.[00:00:39] Lara: And I’m Lara.[00:00:40] Rowan: And we have interesting topic today. I don’t even know where this is going to go, do you?[00:00:46] Lara: A little bit, but not entirely.[00:00:48] Rowan: It is going to be a tiptoe through the mine field of. What does it really mean to be an adult in this day and age,[00:01:00] Lara: and when will I feel like one[00:01:02] Rowan: and when will I feel like one, which I can relate to heavily as I run my fingers through my silver hair and stretch out my sore lower back?Yesterday I posted on threads that I felt like such an adult because I made an appointment with my dentist after putting it off for like two years. I made an appointment with a specialist. After putting that off for a while, I deep cleaned the kitchen. you know, I did all these different things.I met with the bank I filled out all these questionnaires for said specialists and dentists, and I was like, look at me. I’m such a grownup. All I need to do is remember to bring reusable bags to the store and like, that’s it. I should get a trophy. Or a cookie. I prefer a cookie, honestly.[00:01:54] Lara: There’s so much to adulting, and I think the reason it’s such an interesting conversation is because I know I do a lot of adult things, right? Like, I know I have a house, I have a mortgage, I have children. Like I understand these are adult things. Whenever I’m like, I don’t feel like an adult.What I think it is is. When I was little and I looked at the adults around me, they definitely knew everything. They definitely knew how to handle every situation. They definitely felt confident in all their life choices. And so it’s hard to like actually separate that feeling like an adult would feel like that, from what I feel like.But like they didn’t know that stuff either.[00:02:39] Rowan: Yeah, I had the same impression of adults when I was younger. First of all, I really thought that every adult was so old. My parents had me very young, so my mom was 19 when I was born. And all of her friends. I remember when I was three, four, or five, I’m looking at her friends, my dad’s friends.I’m like, wow, that guy has a beard. Right? Like they were all in their twenties. All of them were in their twenties, but they seemed so old. And you know, we’ve talked about this in a previous episode. We talked about how people. Aged differently. Back when we were young, we’re both Gen X, we talked about the Golden Girls and how the Golden girls look so much older than they would look today probably.We talked about Archie Bunker and all in the family and how everybody looked older there , so I get that. But I think also the other thing that has really changed in our society, the two of us did that thing of. I grew up and I got married and I had children, and I purchased a home and I got my driver’s license and all these things that sort of stereotypical hallmarks of adulthood.But there are a lot of people who are not doing those things these days, whether by choice or out of necessity, they can’t. Home ownership seems very far removed from a lot of the younger generation right now, and it’s really unfortunate. A lot of people aren’t moving out of their. Parents’ homes until later, or they’re moving back in with their parents because they can’t afford the rent.People are not getting the same types of jobs anymore. Where you go in, you get a salary job and you get private health insurance and you get a pension. Like those things are not happening at the same rate. A lot of people are not having children for a variety of reasons, and the list goes on and on.So, on top of, you know, you look at you, Lara, and you’re saying, I did a lot of those stereotypical things that would make someone think, oh, that’s it. I’m an adult now. And you still don’t feel nearly as put together as you think you should. Is what I’m getting from this, I can only imagine that that might feel just as much so, and maybe even more to people who don’t have that little checklist of those stereotypical things that adults are supposed to, and I’m using air quotes here, have,[00:05:10] Lara: yeah, there’s a lot of parts to that.And one of them, I really think the big thing for me is just like, not even. That I don’t know what to do, but like who let me be in charge of that. Right? Like why, just based on a certain level of age, are we allowed to make these decisions? And then other people get to make decisions and I wish sometimes they wouldn’t get to make those decisions.Right? Especially just based on age. And it’s because. There is some weight that comes with being an adult, right? Like there is a lot that falls on your shoulders, whether it’s trying to figure out how to buy a house or pay the rent, or that you have to figure out what to do if you can’t, because it’s not an automatic situation that you’re gonna be taken care of once you’re over the age of 18.So. All of that put together is just , I think being an adult , and when we talked about this topic, it was kind of tongue in cheek in this whole like, what does adulting mean? Right? But it really does come down to, I think, how hard it can feel to feel like a responsible person who’s doing the right things and doing them the right way.And I think the difference between our parents’ generation and us is, other than the fact that things have progressively gotten more difficult when it comes to wealth and jobs and homes, is that we and more and more with each generation are less inclined to just put on the uniform of getting older.Right? So. I didn’t cut my hair into a short haircut at 40 ‘cause I’m old and I didn’t start wearing, polyester blouses. Do you know what I mean? Like the fancy clothes. My parents wore to work every day, right? I, as much as possible was like, how do I wear jeans and t-shirts for the rest of my life?So we’re not putting on the automatic uniform of I am older, I look older, I look like an adult. This is what I have to do because this is what we have to do at this age, I think.[00:07:11] Rowan: I think people are also making a lot more room for playthan they used to well into adulthood. like in Toronto, there’s a number of.Gaming cafes and they can either be board game cafes or arcades that are also a cafe slash bar. And they’re filled with people who are my age and older. A lot of times, like you’re, yes, you’re getting the younger people as well, but what I’m saying is it’s filled with adults and adults who maybe. In older generations might not have continued to do the same activities that they did when they were younger.You have adults who are 40 years old who are still going to, a lot of cons and doing cosplay and just really living up their lives. I love the amount of senior. Level, you know, , senior aged women. Gosh, I feel like no matter how I say that, it’s gonna sound offensive sometimes older ladies perhaps who have wild hair, right?Because honestly, like I say this as somebody again, with no pigmentation in my hair anymore. Wow, can it catch a color? And you’ve got purples and pinks and blues and all these different colors, and you have this woman who’s maybe 80 years old, who just steps out of a salon, is like, I went purple today.I was like, yeah, go. You right. So it is really nice to see people not kind of going, well, I’m over a certain age, let’s pack it in and go knitting. And again, there’s nothing wrong with knitting. I also know really young people who knit my stepdaughter knits. She’s an avid knitter and crochet, and she’s quite young.But I’m saying like, you know, that’s this. Stereotypical older person thing, and it’s one of those things that people didn’t do when they were younger and then did do as they got older. Now you’re seeing it across all ages. Just like when you go into some kind of con and you see people who are 10 years old and you see people who are 70 years old.It’s amazing. So. In that way, I think we’re getting to experience more joy and perhaps not feeling as forced into a role, like you said, wearing the outfit, but maybe in other ways that we felt like we needed to before.[00:09:41] Lara: Yeah. I think that it’s fantastic that we’re no longer sticking to those rules of what hobbies can you have at what age?Certainly I’ve seen, as somebody who’s really into fiber arts. I’ve seen all kinds of, videos that are like embracing my granny phase, in my twenties or whatnot. But I think that. We don’t have to be any one thing at any one age, and that’s what’s opening up. You don’t have to be only into, I don’t know, partying or music or, I don’t even know how to be a 20-year-old either, or wait until you are in your forties, fifties, sixties to start knitting embroidering and all of that. And so yeah, I think we’re having a lot more fun. I was trying to think as you were talking, what are the hobbies that were still acceptable as you got older? And the only ones I could think of that would maybe qualify as fun, that have always been okay as you’ve gotten older.Are, Golf and bowling.[00:10:40] Rowan: Yeah. Maybe a dart league.[00:10:42] Lara: Oh, darts. Yep.[00:10:43] Rowan: Yeah. Darts were okay too. I think my dad did a dart league for a while. But I mean, I like darts. That’s cool. it was like you were sort of pigeonholed into specific things. And if you did play. Say board games, they were very specific board games as far as I remember, and please correct me if there are some people who are older than us who are listening to this podcast and they’re like, you have got it all wrong.Send us a note. Seriously, in my personal experience. My parents in their twenties got together with people and they played Trivial Pursuit and occasionally risk. That was it. And oh, cards. They played cards. That was another big thing. But the fact that there are now establishments that make money from people going in to play board games shows that.You’re appealing to a wide range of ages now, so it isn’t just specific ages anymore. Also, I’m seeing that Gen Z up until recently at least, was drinking a lot less than we ever did and going to bed earlier. That was the other thing that I learned that Gen Z likes to get a good night’s sleep. I’m like.Yes. Wow. It was not cool to get a good night’s sleep when we were young, but now, unless they have to stay up and work on an assignment or do something at their job that requires a lot of work, like they’re not staying up super late. They’re also setting a lot of boundaries around work that we didn’t do and saying like, I will not come in on the weekend.I need my weekends off. I will not answer email after a certain hour. So they’re like, in a way they’re learning to adult sooner and hats off to them. But I hope you’re also having fun. ‘cause my goodness, then your energy’s gonna go, your energy’s can just a word of caution. Your energy’s going to get sapped as you get older, and it won’t be a choice anymore.It’s just gonna be like, oh yeah, I have to go to bed at a certain time and I have to get a certain amount of sleep, or I’m not gonna be able to function anymore. So getting older finds you whether you like it or not.[00:12:57] Lara: Mm-hmm. I think what’s interesting about this conversation is the idea of starting with what does it mean to be an adult, as in to me it was like what confidence levels, what abilities, what decision making, all of that.But also there are a lot of things that. We didn’t really think we were supposed to do anymore. Right. So that’s what you’re saying is we’re kind of mixing it all up. ‘Cause I am an almost 50-year-old who had a really big onesie phase. Like I was the one who would like bring onesies to every event and I would be like, put on this shark onesie.Bring back a little bit of fun and whimsy into your life because it’s not the kind of thing people do anymore after a certain point. , Yeah, you’re gonna go to a Halloween party, you’re gonna get dressed up once a year. That’s the thing. It’s okay. It’s for a dress up party, but then that’s it.You don’t walk around wearing a tiara because it makes you happy, but like, why not?[00:13:55] Rowan: Right. Exactly. We, We’ve made a lot of rules around it. Why not? Indeed I, I’m gonna admit something. And this is something that I’ve been examining myself, but when I see somebody my age dress in an outfit that somebody would wear in high school, for example.I get a little weirded out and I don’t like that about me. I think it has been so ingrained in me that as we get older, you know, like, not that we shouldn’t have a sense of fashion, I definitely. Love style and not that we shouldn’t wear say things that would be deemed more revealing or anything like that.Like I think that , everyone should dress how they’re comfortable. And my comfort level based on, you know, what somebody else is wearing is honestly irrelevant. The only person that’s relevant to is me because I need to look at it.But yeah, it is a thing, and I remember this, I remember when my child came out as trans I took them out, they were assigned male at birth. And they wanted to shop in the girls’ department. And this is years and years ago now it’s like 11 years ago or something. So I took them to the now defunct Canadian target rip target.I missed target.[00:15:06] Lara: That was a very shortlived Canadian target.[00:15:08] Rowan: Very shortlived. Yeah, very shortlived. Go look that up if you haven’t seen it. Wow. They use that now , in classes on how to not do business. But anyway, I digress. But I took them. To target, to look for clothes. And they were so excited.They were having the greatest time of their life just going through everything. I wrote about this in my first book. I felt sick to my stomach and I had to sit with it and go, what is that? Why am I having such a hard time? And it was because I had been taught through media and conversations I had overheard and jokes I had heard that.If somebody who’s assigned male at birth wants to dress in women’s clothing that’s a fetish that’s sexual. and The idea of my child doing it, therefore felt very deeply wrong. Now, I’m bringing this up. First of all. I don’t feel that way anymore because I was able to identify it and work through it.But I will say that I think it’s kind of the same energy as I was saying, if I see, I don’t know, somebody wearing something very sequency that came out of I’m gonna be very Canadian here an Ardene or something, right? Where you have like this little sequins miniskirt or something that I would assume maybe a 15 or 16-year-old would wear, and I see it on somebody who’s 50.I’ll be like, oh, what’s going on there? And then I have to check myself, right? And go, no, no, what’s going on with you? And I really, really do think that when we see something that is out of what we consider normal, like the norm, it can trigger these reactions inside of us no matter how open-minded we try to be.And I see that with a lot of things. People with kids. Who get weirded out by the idea of somebody not wanting children. it’s becoming less of a thing now. But a few years ago, that was still a big thing. You’re like, what? You don’t want children? What do you mean? Right? Mm-hmm. Or people not wanting to go get a, I’m gonna use air quotes again, real job.Because they really like their job at the skate shop. They just enjoy it. Or they really like being a barista, or they really like whatever it is, and it’s like, well, you’re too old for that job. Says who? Who says you’re too old for that job, right? Does an adult mean you have to give up everything you enjoy?Is that being an adult? Because if that is the case, you can’t wear what you wanna wear and you can’t work in the fields you wanna work in and you can’t continue to be creative and you can’t continue to have a good time. What’s the point[00:17:43] Lara: Then I don’t want to be an adult.[00:17:45] Rowan: Yeah, I’m checking outta that.Nevermind.[00:17:47] Lara: And I think a lot of what we were taught, and I imagine, although please come and correct me if I’m wrong again to our listeners, that a lot of our listeners are probably in a sort of similar age ranges to us. Like they’re not 20, but hey, please come and talk to us if you are. They grew up in a time where there were also a lot of rules, right?So many rules that you didn’t even notice, that you were being taught around what is appropriate for a person of a certain age to do what kind of behavior is appropriate. Because as soon as you start to do certain things, there was a lot of judgment. Like, oh, this person, they think they’re still 20.Or they like what they wore when they were 20.Right, exactly. Like did when they were 20. And so this is about noticing when we have that judgment come up, when we see people, because we will, there are , all kinds of thoughts that I still have in all kinds of different directions no matter what I’m seeing.And I’ll feel like an old thought come up and I’ll be like, whoa. Not cool Lara. I’m glad nobody else heard that. And then I check myself and then like, I think that that’s the first thing we need to do is we need to notice when we see something and judgment comes up, and then ask ourselves like, why do we care?Why does it matter? Why did we think it mattered? What did people think was the problem with it? And that deconstructs the whole idea, unless it letsus realize like it’s just not a big deal.[00:19:25] Rowan: , We can look at adulthood in a number of different ways. I mean, obviously in Canada, in many parts of the world, 18 years old is what is considered legally an adult. We’re not questioning what is legally an adult. We’re maybe more questioning what adulting actually is, because when we were younger, we had these ideas of what it was, and then we became adults ourselves and realized, huh, I’m not nearly as put together as I thought I was.I am perhaps not as confident in some cases as I thought I might be. And my life looks very different than I expected. It might look as an adult. I’m just giving examples. I think that being an adult means that we have to find that balance between having that fun, that joie de vivre, and also being responsible.Because I do think responsibility is something that people can forget sometimes.I know of people who have grown up and gotten married and had families, and then one day one of them decides, you know what, I don’t want this anymore. And they just check out and it’s like, oh, I wanna have more fun in my life.This isn’t fun. I need to be doing something different. And you know what, that’s fine if your relationship doesn’t work out. If you’re like, no, I need something different out of life. But being an adult also means taking responsibility for your actions. I do think that is a big part of adulthood. if you did decide to have children, be responsible for them, that doesn’t mean.Go to bed at nine o’clock, never leave the house, don’t have any hobbies, stay in a miserable relationship, like none of those things. But it might mean make sure they are still a big part of your life, even if that is challenging because you did decide to do that. there’s a reality check that has to come with adulthood.And it may not be around children, it could be around other things, but. Having to strike that balance between being true to yourself and making sure that you live a life that suits you, while also remembering that you’re not the only person who matters. That to me might be adulthood.[00:21:41] Lara: Yeah. And as you’re talking, really, if you’re over 18, you’re an adult, but you may not be a responsible adult, and that’s. Probably what most of us should be striving for is responsible adult, not just adult, Because I think there’s certainly a bunch of irresponsible adults out there, for sure.My goal would not to be one of them, so it is just a matter of. Distinguishing, like, what is it that you wanna do? And being an adult does it mean you’re responsible for things? You’re responsible for yourself? But I’m sure there’s some adults who are not responsible for themselves.Other people are responsible for them. So it’s not just the word adult. And I think when this topic came up, it was more around that feeling that , I wish I had. Because it’s not so much about what are the rules and when do you get there, and what are you supposed to do? It’s when am I gonna feel like I have my life together?When am I gonna feel like I’ve figured it all out? And I think it’s simply unlikely that most adults feel like they’ve figured that out. because I’m like, I still feel like, well, I don’t. know how old, I think I still feel like anymore, but I used to be like, you know, like I still feel like I’m young.I don’t feel any different. But then when I think about the things that I did and the decisions that I made and what I would do now it’s like, oh, I do see a distinct difference between how I make decisions and what I might think of as a responsible decision versus an irresponsible decision. It is easier for me at this age to make what would be considered a responsible decision.[00:23:23] Rowan: Yeah, that’s wisdom, right? Mm-hmm. We live and learn. I think if you don’t, look, I’m gonna speak for myself ‘cause I, I don’t wanna offend anyone. I, I think I’m probably already offended everybody with my older lady’s comment. But I think that for me. If I don’t look back at my life from three, four years ago and think about something that I did and kinda go, Ooh, wouldn’t do that the same now, wouldn’t react the same, or wouldn’t have made the same decision or wouldn’t have thought that or, or whatever it might be, then have I really grown?So to me, life, not just adulthood is all about learning and growing from my mistakes. Choosing to put love first and kindness first whenever I can, and facing challenges with the mindset that I will learn. There’s a gift, there’s a little nugget in there that I can excavate, so I do think that comes with age.I also think that when you were saying. when am I going to feel like I have my life together?The older I get, the less I feel like I’m ever going to have my life together. I think I had this idea that I would later, and I have lived too much now to go, oh yeah, I still am going to have no idea what I’m doing.In fact, I am more certain now that I have no clue what I’m doing. Than I was when I was 20 years old. And at 20 years old, I was in a very different situation, but I was filled with confidence some ways and lacked a lot of confidence in other ways. But now I feel like I am more confident in myself in the way that I know that, yeah, I don’t have it all together.I’m never going to have it all together. And I’m gonna be just fine no matter what. That’s totally okay.[00:25:17] Lara: Yeah. I think I wanna focus on the wisdom that I’ve collected over the years. I like, when you said that word, I was like, yes. And I do, I want to be more wise than just quote unquote adult. I would love to be wise.And we continue to grow. ‘Cause I think we’re mostly all trying to grow, so we’re never gonna get to the end destination, right? Like I feel like in life we think, oh, when I get to this place, it’s going to be amazing. But we don’t get to the end.Once we get to that place, if we achieve it, then we have new goals, we have new things that we wanna achieve. We’re not. Done. We’re not like, boop, that’s it. Now I’m just gonna repeat my life the same way every day for the rest of my life. , We’re gonna keep growing, we’re gonna keep changing, we’re gonna keep figuring things out.And I think that we can learn so much from how the younger generations are adulting and we can stop putting so much pressure on ourselves to try to. Be this responsible, always having it together person that we thought we would be once we reached a certain age,[00:26:25] Rowan: and us doing that will also help the younger generation.Because they will look at us and go, oh, okay. It’s really nice to see. That nobody knows what they’re doing actually, that there’s comfort in that. It takes the pressure off of them as they get older to feel like, well, it really looked like everybody my parents’ age knew what they were doing. But if their parents are like, Hey, we’re all just doing the best we can.All of us are just doing the best we can and we all make mistakes. And adults are human beings too, and we are fallible. The more we do that. The easier the world gets for everybody. It’s the same reason I believe in being very visible as a trans person because the more that I show people that this diversity is just out there, it just exists.That I didn’t choose. This is something that I just was, and that’s okay. And here’s my life and that then. Allows other people contrary to popular belief, it doesn’t turn anybody trans. But, but I mean, Lara, we’ve talked so much. You’d be trans by now, honestly. Yeah. Look at that. I know.Imagine, imagine and you’re decidedly not so apparently I have to try harder. But all it does is it creates. This window into a reality that exists rather than me trying to make it something that’s not, you and I both came up as parents in like the heyday of the Mummy blog.And we’ve talked about this before, but it should be said again back in that era of the. Early two thousands, you know, it was very much anybody who was putting their life out there as a parent was putting it out there. Well, I don’t wanna say everybody. There were a couple of exceptions, but overall, the people who were putting their lives out there on display and going, look, this is me, this is my family.This is a day in the life of our family and parenting. It was very curated. It was very much like, look how put together I am. Look how perfect my children are. Look how much I do for them and with them, and all the love that they receive, and all the love that I get, and basically all of the best parts of parenting that are this little fraction.Of what actually goes on as a parent, and we all know it, those of us who are parents, but I think it set people up to become parents themselves and possibly get shocked at how difficult it actually is and that it is not that all the time we have to create a more realistic. Version of life, and as adults, especially adults who’ve been adults for a while, being able to say, I don’t have my s**t together and I’m never going to have it together, and I have never had it together no matter how hard I tried.That’s not depressing. That’s releasing someone from societal expectations, which I think is a huge service.[00:29:38] Lara: Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, like I was saying, the uniform of being an adult included, how you wore your hair and what you actually wore. But I think it also required you to always put your best foot forward and always make sure everybody saw the best side possible.So we didn’t, I don’t think our parents did. I don’t know that I did in the beginning. Really come out and say the hard things. Whereas I really try now with my kids to say, you know what? Right now I am dysregulated. Like if you want to have a good conversation, you should wait just a little bit ‘cause now’s not the time where it’s gonna go how you want.But to be honest about that stuff, to say sometimes this is difficult. Sometimes I don’t like this thing in my life, and I don’t think talking about that was common. And so I do think it’s really good. It’s just like changing how we talk about life[00:30:36] Rowan: my partner and I are opening a business and it is the most responsible thing I think I’ve ever done in my life, possibly beyond parenting in terms of.How bureaucratic it is, how many meetings there are, how much I have to adult, how much I have to work with numbers. And I hate working with numbers. And this is funny because I just realized this as we were talking, I was out with my son and his girlfriend in the small town where he’s going to school right now, and I went to.A secondhand shop. Like a thrift shop. And I found this weird, almost paper mache type creature for $4. Kind of looks like a cat, kinda looks like a pig, kinda looks like a cow. And it is small and creepy and funny. So I bought it and I gave it to my partner Dani, and she was like, ugh. Right. So I started putting it in places where it would be very obvious to her, like she would open her drawer and it would be there, or she would wake up and turn over and it would be there on the pillow next to her.And then she started taking it and , we’ve never talked about this. She would take it and then she would put it somewhere where I would find it, and then I would just take it and put it somewhere where she would find it. We just go back and forth like this and we have not said a word to each other about doing this.I noticed there was something in my light on my desk just now and I’m about to reach my hand in and I guarantee you Yep. In my light is this weird little creature and[00:32:10] Lara: we’ll put a photo of that into the, show notes.[00:32:13] Rowan: Oh yeah. It deserves an entire photo spread. As far as I’m concerned.This thing should be in vogue. It is delightful and weird. If that doesn’t sum up adulting, we have five kids Between us, we are starting a business. We’ve been under all this stress and we’re doing these really big things and we still make that time to do something ridiculous for each other back and forth and to laugh.Like this is the funniest thing that it was sitting in my light. I haven’t found it for days. And there it was. This is, we’re talking. I think that that is exactly the level of adulting that I want to do because if I just did. The boring things and tried to convince myself that I was totally capable of everything and never out of my depth and the most confident man alive., I would be doing myself a disservice, but if I can find a weird cow, cat, pig. Thing and hide it in my partner’s t-shirt drawer, and she can hide it back. That, perfect to me. that’s it. , I’ve won adulting.[00:33:20] Lara: Woo, we’ve solved it. Right? , The question is, what does it mean to be an adult?It means stop thinking. You can get everything together and start thinking you can have fun. And just be yourself[00:33:34] Rowan: and for goodness sakes. So just take a moment to recognize that life is actually very short. And also the older you get, the more you realize that life can be a lot shorter than you expected.We lose people, things change, circumstances change. So try to find those moments to experience that pure. Unfiltered unbridled joy. And if you can do that, it’s like you’re a kid again. And that’s the most wonderful feeling.[00:34:03] Lara: This has been a good conversation.[00:34:05] Rowan: It has. I don’t know if I feel more grown up since having this conversation.How do you feel?[00:34:11] Lara: I mean, I think that really what we figured out is I’m not going to, so we’re all good.[00:34:18] Rowan: Yeah, you’re fine. You’re fine. You just stay messy. Just stay messy. It’s okay. We’re all messy. Thank you so much for joining us today. This is a public episode. 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A common idea about those who are regularly late to scheduled events of any kind—think appointments, meetings, work shifts, or coffee dates—is that they’re being disrespectful of other people’s time and energy. We have some thoughts on that.I (Lara) am chronically 5-10 minutes late. Rowan is chronically early (Hello, anxiety!). But we both believe the same thing when it comes to lateness: it’s generally not about disrespect for others.There’s so much more that comes into play when someone keeps others waiting: Do they struggle with time management? Are they time-blind? Chronically overwhelmed? Is being late not as a big a deal in their culture?We talk about all of these things in this week’s episode of Unboxing It. We’d love to know your thoughts on chronic lateness from either side of the equation. Feel free to leave us a comment or send us an email!LinksEpisode 17: On the differences in all of our brainsLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscript(please note these transcripts have not been edited for accuracy)[00:00:00] Lara: When you think, why isn’t this person doing it? I know it’s hard, but you can just do it anyway. take an instant and be like, could it be a different hard, could it be that what I’m experiencing and what’s happening for me is not the same as what’s happening for them?Welcome back to unboxing It. I’m Lara.[00:00:41] Rowan: And I’m Rowan.[00:00:43] Lara: And today we’re gonna start off with me talking a little bit about me again and saying I am often a little bit late. I would say chronically like five to 10 minutes late, and I feel so guiltyabout it and maybe shameful about it all the time.This has been something that hasbeen compounded by, and maybe you’ve heard this kind of messaging online, people who are late are disrespectful. If somebody isn’t right on time, that means they don’t think that I am worth being on time for, I don’t know. I’ve seen a lot of messages like that. Have you seen messages like that?[00:01:21] Rowan: I actually got into it with a friend a few years ago and like, we’re still friends, everything’s cool, but she posted an article on Facebook that was very much along these lines that if somebody is late, they don’t care about you. They only care about themselves. They’re self-absorbed. They’re,immature.I mean, it was a whole opinion piece. This whole op-ed on how terrible people who are. Chronically late are as human beings. And I disagreed. I 100% disagreed. I am usually on time. In fact, I’m not even usually on time. I’m usually early because I’m so worried about being late.I’m the person who walks around the block a few times before going to the house or like. Parks in the parking lot and waits 15 minutes because I wanted to make sure I didn’t get stuck in traffic, right? But I don’t think I’m more respectful than you who is five to 10 minutes late. I think that I am just very concerned with being late because it stresses me out when I am.[00:02:32] Lara: I am concerned with being late. I’m also concerned about being early because if you come to me early, I’m usually not ready. So I was like, never be early. Like people seem to think early is good, but if you be early, if you be early, I don’t know that that’s a way to say things.[00:02:48] Rowan: If you be early...[00:02:52] Lara: then I am like, oh no, I’m not ready.Oh, no, I haven’t finished cleaning my house. Right? So . I have given myself a situation where I have exactly one minute to not upset anybody.[00:03:03] Rowan: Oh no. I showed up on time to a party once and it was when we were first getting to know some friends of ours, who are a gay couple and I got there I think at like, maybe five minutes after they said, yeah, people can start showing up around this time. Or , maybe 10 minutes. , It wasn’t like right on the nose, but it was around that time. ‘cause you know, we had other things we had to do afterwards and they were like, oh, you’re here already.I was like, yeah, said, you know, seven o’clock or whatever. It’s like 10 after seven. yeah, no, no. We met gay time. So gay time apparently means you show up an hour or so after? I don’t know. I mean, I think it depends. It depends on the gays involved. But yeah, after that I learned that when they say this time, they mean significantly after that time.But if you wait too long, they’ll text you to see where you are. So, I mean, it’s just, It’s just stressful no matter what you do.[00:04:06] Lara: Exactly I think that the reason was like, let’s talk about being late, but it’s about more than even just being late. It’s about all of the things that people tell us if we don’t do them correctly.We’re not being a good friend. If we don’t do them correctly. We’re not being respectful and like. There’s so many things that you cannot get, right. or at least that’s how it feels like to me, right? another one that makes me really stressed a lot is tipping. It’s like, is it too much? Is it not enough?Do I have to do it? Do I not have to do it? Like there’s, all these things that we get told. If we don’t do them correctly, then we are not being a good person. And a lot of the time, I don’t think I’m being a bad person. I’m just not very good at planning my time. I have executive dysfunction when it comes to what I call, time optimism.Some other people call a time blindness. I’m like, I am very optimistic about how long it will take me to do a thing generally in an unrealistic way. Right. So if I’m like, it will take me 30 minutes to get there, then I will. Leave 30 minutes. Before I have to be there forgetting anything about anything extra, getting into the car, getting ready to get into the car, the fact that there could be some traffic, that there could be something unexpected.You need to find parking, you need to walk from wherever you parked to the place. These are all things that are above the 30 minutes, but I was like 30 minutes. I looked it up. I shall be on time, and then I leave exactly 30 minutes. before, which was not enough time.[00:05:42] Rowan: My partner does that, and I’m like, do you know where we live?We live in Central Toronto. It does not matter whether you are driving or taking public transit. There are so many variables that you just can’t possibly know. I have been on the subway and it just, stopped and the power went out and it’s not moving now, but the doors aren’t open, so you’re just waiting and you have no cell service because you are underground.It’s like, or you know, a car decides to stop on the streetcar line and it doesn’t move, and nobody knows where the driver is. or, you know, the constant construction that is going on and you’re driving. I mean, it’s just no matter what you do. It’s not going to take the exact length of time that it says it’s going to take, but I am overzealous.I’m like, I gotta leave. If it says half an hour, I have to be out the door an hour early, and then I’m like, I’m walking around and I’m like, what do I do now? My appointment’s not for another 20 minutes. Okay. I guess I grab a coffee. Well, I guess I’ll grab a breakfast now.I’ve just spent $15 to be early.[00:06:58] Lara: Right? But. If you’re me and you’re early, you’re like, I guess I’m going to get a coffee. I guess I’m gonna go do this, right? So I’m super, super early, so then I go do something in order to fill the time, and then I lose track of time and then I’m late anyway, like,and I just thought that it was a good topic because. I know that there are people out there who either just have believed this or who have heard this, and therefore taken it in that people who are late are disrespectful. And I wanted to say, I don’t mean any disrespect. I’m trying really hard, but I’m really bad at this sometimes.But it is so much a thing that I am naturally not. Nearly as late as I used to be, right? Like I am good at sort of compensating for some of the things that I used to forget to do, but it’s still like a running joke. If I’m somewhere like really early, I’m like, you know, I love being early. And everybody’s like, ha ha ha.Because even though I’m early, way more often than I used to be, it’s still this thing that I’ve taken on, that I’m always late and therefore. The internal voice, if I don’t check it, is like, you don’t really respect people because if you did, you’d have this figured out. And I think that part of it is remembering I am not not caring about you.Like there are certainly people who are hours and hours late, and they’re just like, Hey, here I am. And you’d be like, you’re not even gonna say sorry that you’re like an hour late. And that’s. Maybe not great, but it’s certainly not where I’m coming from. Like not only am I only five to 10 minutes late, but I’m profusely apologetic about it.And then the other side, for those people who are really late, I think a lot of that can be cultural, right? It’s like, I’m late but I’m not really late. ‘cause like who’s on time? And everybody is what you feel. But like in a lot of places, culturally, people are late all the time.You’re not meant to show up on time. So it is just another one of those things where it’s so hard to get things right and we’ve created this situation where everybody gets really up in arms and angry Calling people out or thinking that they’re being disrespectful when youcan’t get something that is so difficult to get Right.I’m just gonna say it for the people[00:09:10] Rowan: who, and you’re gonna get mad at me, not you, Lara, but[00:09:14] Lara: they’re gonna get mad.[00:09:14] Rowan: They’re gonna get mad at me for saying this, but I’m gonna say it.It’s not always about you. And, I know that sucks to hear because at the same time, what have we been taught and what do I in fact teach in the books that I write and the coaching that I do and that sort of thing, that our time and energy is very valuable.It really is. My time and energy is,valuable and I don’t get it back. So I get it if somebody is chronically late, that that might impede on my schedule and it might impede on my ability to do other things. And that might be frustrating. And maybe I do need to say something about it if it happens over and over and it is really getting in the way of other things.But. I’m not taking it personally that somebody else is having a hard time showing up on time. Yes. That can still negatively affect me. It can, and again, if it is happening all the time and I have got a tight schedule and it’s really important this person show up on time, then maybe I have to set some boundaries around that for sure.But. It’s not that the person is going out of their way to disrespect me. I’m not taking it as an insult. I’m just looking at it and going, my schedule is as such, and there’s either room to maneuver in that schedule or there isn’t. And if there isn’t, then it is a problem and we need to talk about it.But if there is. It’s not a big deal. And regardless, I’m not thinking that that person is being awful to me. Like, stop making it all about you. I have a son with ADHD. He chronically forgets things. He’s also so sweet and wonderful and he’s not a bad person. He just has ADHD, and it makes him forget things sometimes.And he works on it. He’s always working on it. But do I take it personally when he forgets something? No, I don’t. Does it get annoying sometimes? Yeah, it does, but it’s not the end of the world and it’s not really about me.[00:11:28] Lara: Yeah. Do you know How often when I leave my house to go somewhere that I have to come back in at least two or three times because I forgot something I should have brought with me.Like oh, I’m driving far. I’m just in the car. I should have brought something to drink. I gonna run back inside and get something to drink. Oh, you know what? I forgot to pee. I gotta run back inside. Oh, I’m on my way to deliver something and I got into the car.I have everything I need to get there, but I don’t have the thing.[00:11:55] Rowan: You forgot the thing.[00:11:56] Lara: Forgot the thing. And so, again, remember when I was saying if I’m giving myself exactly the amount of time that it takes, even if I’m starting to think, no, Lara, you should give yourself five to 10 extra minutes, but I’m not remembering to account for the fact that I’m probably gonna need 20 minutes because I’m gonna drive down the street and be like, oh, crap.And turn around and come back. Like my family is very used to being like, oh, what’d you forget? Now when I come back in three times. Trying toleave.there is nobody who wishes that I was more organized and less frazzled than I am than me. This is not a way of being that I enjoy.I have more and more strategies that help me as I get older, not. Make as many mistakes, for example, another one that slows me down is where the heck are my keys? I tried to have a place at my front door where I’m supposed to hang my keys. I don’t always put them there. if I put something down and I don’t really pay attention to where I put it down.I’m not gonna remember where I put it down. And every once in a while I pick somewhere really, really weird to put something down. And so now I have, do you know what a tile is? it’s like a little gadgety thing that I have in my wallet. I have one and I have one on my keys that I can trigger from my phone and has a little chirping alarm that I can follow around the house to find my things because.I lose them and like they’re in somewhere weird. And so thank God I have that. I also went to the bother of making sure that all of our vehicles, are the kind that unlock as long as you have the keys somewhere on your person. So I often leave my keys in my bag. I don’t have to find them. I don’t have to move them.I just know that if they’re in my bag, my car will unlock and my car will start. These are some little strategies I have to try to make things a little bit easier for myself. All that to say, I’m constantly looking for these tricks, hacks, things that’ll make my life easier because I understand about myself that it’s difficult for me to do it otherwise.But again, my whole point was trust me, I hate it. I am trying really hard to figure out how not to be late.[00:14:02] Rowan: I am, I’m listening to you and I am envisioning my partner this weekend and her purse. So her favorite purse is just this black purse. It has nothing flashy on it, so it doesn’t really stand out.And all weekend As we’re going in and out of the house, she’s like, where’s my purse? I don’t know where my purse is. I have no idea where it is. And I kept finding it and it was in these places. Like she put it down next to the exercise bike.Well, what color is the exercise bike? Black.So she’s like, I looked all over the bedroom and I can’t find it anywhere. Oh my God. Did I forget it at the restaurant last night?And I’m like. I’ll go upstairs and look. So I go upstairs and look I scanned and it was there, but it was hard to see.So now I wanna get one of those tiles for her. I think this would be an excellent gift I used to be like this. And , again, I wanna say that every brain is different and we all can learn tips and tricks, and for some of us, they work better than for other people. I am very good at putting my stuff in the same two or three locations in the house.Every time. So it’s very easy for me to find them again. with a few times where like I left my wallet in a pair of pants and threw them in the hamper, like that sort of thing. But normally I’m very good at taking everything out, putting them down in the same spot all the time. my bags, same thing.I have a backpack. It’s in one of two locations in the house all the time. So, I’m just a creature of habit that way, but. I don’t think I am better because of that. I mean, there are other things where say my partner who puts things all over the place and again, as I just said, loses them, she is the most digitally organized person I’ve ever met.She has all of her photos with all of the people in them, tagged. She has files in appropriate folders. My stuff is spread out over two or three devices. It is absolutely. Awful to try and find anything. I never know where it is. I get overwhelmed when I look at a form, so like we are all different.When I ask her if she knows where that digital thing is that I can’t find and she has to stop what she’s doing and looking for it, I mean, I feel a little bad because. I wish I was better at this, but then I stare at my screen and it gets completely overwhelming and I can’t do it. I just, I, it’s too much for me.So, I’m not trying to be disrespectful of her time by asking her for this. It’s just, it’s the same thing as, you know. she’s kind of like you. We go in and outta the house two or three times while she forgets things and has to run back in. , She’s not being disrespectful to me or anyone else.That’s just who she is. And we are all of a certain age, you and me and her, where we’re all kind of 50 ish. And, while you can teach an old dog new tricks, and I am certainly learning plenty of them myself as I get older, neuroplasticity does exist and we can rewire our brains to think.Better or create new habits and unlearn old habits. We are also kind of, we have a threshold in which we can learn those things and we can get better, but we may never get to the point where we see somebody else get to. Like, I’m never gonna be as organized digitally as my partner is. and, she’s probably never going to remember.Where her things are as easily as I do. And that’s just the way it is.[00:17:39] Lara: Yeah, and it’s not just because you can’t teach an old dog new tricks kind of idea. It is because some of us our brains aren’t structured that way. So for me, one of the things that I learned from one of my kids when they had an ADHD assessment was that they had really low working memory.And that’s when I realized that. When I asked them to go get their lunchbox and they were going to do something else, they weren’t just being an ass. They like literally did not remember that I had asked them. So that’s the working memory is the, where did I put down my keys? And I once lost my phone.This was many years ago, like a decade ago. I feel now. I lost my phone for like a week because I put it on a high shelf in a bowl. And I think I did that. So my kids couldn’t see it in that moment. Do you know what I mean? Like what the reasoning was for that. I don’t really know. ‘cause like it was a very odd choice.I had never put anything in that bowl before. Certainly not my phone. And then my phone died while it was in there, so we couldn’t find it.Some people would never think to do that. Do you know what I mean? Like First of all, I did that. Second of all, I forgot that I did that. but some people would never have that situation because their brain is just like, I put the thing in its place because that’s what feels good. And I know that’s where it goes.And some people never think of that, right? It’s not like I’m like, you know what? I’m gonna do not put it in its place. I’m not gonna remember that it has a place and I’m gonna put it somewhere that, in that moment makes sense tome and very potentially forget that I did it.So it’s not that I just didn’t learn organizational skills. It’s that they never really made sense to me or they never felt like what I wanted to be doing. And so when I’m not doing it, it’s not because, well, you learned it and you just decided that was the right thing to do, and I decided it was the wrong thing to do.It’s that it made sense to you and your brain, so you kept doing it and it didn’t make sense to me in my brain, so I didn’t keep doing it. This comes back to my whole thing is we always think other people are like us, and if they just did things that weren’t even that hard, everything would be better.But you’re using yourself as the baseline and that simply isn’t the case. Like we’re all starting from different places. And I’m not saying like worse or better, I’m just saying different.[00:20:03] Rowan: Different , and we’ve talked about this, we did a whole Neuro Divergence podcast episode a few weeks ago, but we need all different kinds of brains in the human.Experience to be able to evolve. If we all thought exactly the same way, if we all had the same strengths and the same weaknesses, we would never get anywhere. We would’ve died out ages ago. Why are we the humanoid species that survived? There are a lot of theories. one of them is we learn to use tools and one of them is we learn to work together more.also I would say our diversity has been our strength and I don’t think I’m alone in that. I think a lot of anthropologists would say that as well. Just the idea that we recognize that not everybody has to be the same as us, and in fact. Them not being the same as us is our salvation. It can be annoying sometimes, and also we are still animals.And we’re seeing right now politically for example, that there are a lot of people out there who insist. That everybody be exactly the same as them, lead the exact same life, identify the same way, be attracted to the same kinds of people, want the same kinds of things, and that is not realistic in the same way that expecting that every single person is going to look at.A bowl and go, that’s where I need to put my keys and my wallet every day. You know, it’s like we all think differently. SoI think it’s the same issue. It’s just coming out in a different way and dare I say, a far less dangerous way. If you are like, I am mad that somebody’s late all the time because they’re disrespecting me.I think I would prefer that to a lot of the other sentiments going around right now. But yeah. Still is worth, discussing. And itone of our gifts is that we’re very self-aware and one of the things that we need to survive is that we’re a little self-absorbed.We have to be thinking about ourselves a lot, but it can be a fault. It can go so far that we start to think, like you were saying. Everybody has to think like me. Everybody is just like me. And so if you are doing this thing poorly that I do, well, it’s because you just don’t wanna do it and you’re not trying enough and how dare youit’s a dangerous way of thinking. It really is.[00:22:46] Lara: and I would add to that. Even if something feels kind of difficult for you. ‘cause I’ll hear that. Like, do you think it’s easy for me to get to places on time all the time?Um, okay. I don’t know. First of all, maybe, maybe it’s easy for you, but just because something’s hard for you doesn’t mean that the hard somebody else is having is the same hard, right?So do you think it’s easy for me to get up at 5:00 AM and go for a run? I imagine not because you keep doing itversus[00:23:19] Rowan: um, no. Judging by the evidence.[00:23:22] Lara: Right. But they’re like, well, I don’t always want to do it. I was like, okay, this is where we need to be clear. that hard is not the same as my hard, my hard would be, My brain can’t form sentences, let alone get out of bed.Or you might be like, I don’t really feel like it this morning. And I’m like, my body won’t move in a way that doesn’t hurt to walk, let alone run. the difference in what feels difficult to you and you just did it anyway. And what. I might be experiencing aren’t necessarily the same, and I’m not saying anything other than remember that.When you think, why isn’t this person doing it? I know it’s hard, but you can just do it anyway. take an instant and be like, could it be a different hard, could it be that what I’m experiencing and what’s happening for me is not the same as what’s happening for them? And the other thing I’ll hear is like, I just don’t understand why blah, blah, blah, blah.And I wanna remind people they don’t need to understand. They just need to believe that somebody else might be having a different experience and they’re not just lazy and they’re not Being disrespectful and they’re not being a bad friend, something else is likely going on. Again, there are exceptions, but I just wanna remind people to consider the fact that sometimes it’s not about you, and it’s not about how they feel about you, it’s just about how they move through life and how difficult or easy things are that day.[00:25:02] Rowan: Another thing that I thinkfalls in line with this isyou’ll have somebody that you texted and they haven’t gotten back to you yet.It’s been a day or two, and then you see them post on social media, and it can be very easy to think. That that person doesn’t care about you or is disrespecting you? it’s me. I am the person that has 25 texts sometimes and has not replied to them, but can post to thousands of people on social media and.There’s a reason for that and it’s because my threshold in terms of being able to connect with people is the window’s much smaller. At that point, I’m probably feeling really anxious and overwhelmed, and the idea of having a back and forth conversation with you in text is too much for me right now. And my brain kind of shuts that part off and completely forgets about it and just puts it over here.And not because I don’t value those people and love those people dearly, but because I just can’t. And then I go over to social media. Well, for one, social media is part of my job. So staying visible is one of the things that I have to do. So some of that is work, but sometimes let’s just take that away.Sometimes the person is just posting on social media. And that’s because I think they can post it and then just leave it alone or post it and have very minimal interaction. There’s a lot of reasons. Ithink again, sometimes when we see someone’s actions.There are some very overtly hurtful things that , people can say, and people can do.And if we’ve had conversations with people about how those things are hurtful and they’re not getting it, I can see having to set some boundaries around those things and maybe even not have that person as much a part of your life anymore or whatever it is that you need to do, but. I also think it’s really important to remember, like you were saying, that everyone’s going through their own stuff all of us are going through things that other people can’t see.I actually make it a practice because I live, like I said, very central Toronto, very downtown ish, and there’s a lot of people. And it’s this beautiful, diverse community. People come from all over the world and, have very different lives, and everyone’s kind of, different ages different, cultural backgrounds and different jobs.And so I make it a point to go out for a walk when I’m feeling really stuck in my head and I have to practice it. I have to actually do this with these thoughts in mind. I make a point of people watching when I’m out and remembering that all of these people have those very different lives, grew up in different experiences, different family dynamics, and come from different places and that and that everybody has their own worries.Everybody has their own joys. Everybody has their own habits. Everybody has their own brain. That works a certain way, and it helps me shift that baseline from insisting that everybody think and act like me to. I am just one of billions of people and we are all very, very unique and to be gentle, to practice that kindness and that understanding,[00:28:37] Lara: and I think it’s a good example that you made because when we talk about.How different we all are. You’ve said you don’t lose your stuff constantly ‘cause you put your stuff away in the right place. You’re pretty good at getting out the door on time or early. I’m pretty good at responding to messages. In fact, I sometimes worry people think that I don’t do anything except sit and wait for their messages because I reply so quickly.[00:29:02] Lara: but that is, easy for me to do that. It is easy for me to like pull away from things. ‘cause like kind of like to be constantly changing activities, so I’m pretty good at noticing when messages come in. I like to reply quickly. it is not heavy or difficult for me, and I think that’s key.It is not heavy or difficult for me. It is sometimes heavy or difficult for you. It is heavy and difficult for me to remember to put things away in the same place every time like I try, but it always requires an extra amount of effort that other people don’t require. I read something once that said people with ADHD actually almost never.Establish habits, right? People are like, oh, it takes this many times to establish a habit. Sorry, I said that really mockingly. But,[00:29:50] Rowan: but I mean, if somebody’s insisting that that’s how long it takes and you know, that’s not true. I mean, that’s fair,[00:29:56] Lara: There are people where you’re like, well just make it a habit.There are people who actively have to convince themselves to brush their teeth every morning. Convince themselves to get in the shower. And other people are like, I just got in the shower and didn’t even think about it. Right? And it’s the same thing for me. I have to be like, whoa, put your keys on the hook.And other people walk in and they just put their keys on the hook without thinking about it because it’s become a habit. Not everybody establishes habits in the same way. Not everybody finds ease for things in the same way, and so whether it’s about being late or not, I think that Ultimately, what I wanted people to hopefully hear when I suggested this topic was,well, number one, we’re not trying to be disrespectful.Number two, we still want. To be good friends. Number three,it’s not necessarily what you think is happening that’s happening, like that’s what I want, people to realize. there’s just so many different ways of thinking and being and doing and living and operating. And when we put these rules out into society, never be late or.It’s disrespectful, And I have a laundry list of other ones like that. Allyou’redoing is putting. More pressure and stress on people and that sucks. I think there are times when you can be like, this is a non-negotiable, right? You can say to people, it is extraordinarily important that you be on time for this, and whether you specifically state that it’s a non-negotiable or not, but if you specifically say it’s really, really important that you be on time for this.Particular thing that’s probably gonna help that person be on time.[00:31:31] Rowan: Yeah.[00:31:32] Lara: But if you ask them to do that every single time, then it’s not extraordinarily important. You just kind of would prefer that. And you need to understand that other people also are operating and living in different ways and they would prefer other things.[00:31:46] Rowan: Well, I thinkit’s like,you know, you have the people who are sort of chronically late for things, but their siblings getting married and they know they have to be there at a certain time and they are. And what I would like to say in that time isn’t like, it’s not a ha gotcha. See, you can be on time for things that is more of a.I recognize how extraordinarily difficult it must have been for you, and you still stepped up to do it this time because you understood how important it was. Like, I don’t think that that should ever be used as a See, you can do it, it is much more about wow, I really recognize that you care and that you cared enough to probably exhaust yourself to get here on time.This time. Yeah. Like I can respond to everyone’s text messages right away. It takes a lot outta me when I’m going through some stuff. To be able to do that. ‘cause I just don’t have the spoons, frankly. Right. It doesn’t mean that I don’t love these people. I can do it. And believe me, if I have 20 text messages from people, like, Hey, what’s up?you know, , just thinking about you. And I haven’t gotten back to those people, but somebody reaches out to me and they’re in a crisis. I will reach right back out immediately. No matter what I’m going through, it wears me out. Of course it does. I don’t really have a lot in me to do that.But again, it comes back to the wedding thing, right? It’s like, if it’s really important, I’m going to put that extra effort in. But I also think that, if you are saying to somebody, it’s really important that you’re here on time, this time.Ask yourself, is it really important that this person is on time for a specific reason or is it really just important because you feel disrespected when it’s not happening? And if you’re feeling disrespected, is there a good reason you’re feeling disrespected? Or is that because you were told you’re supposed to feel disrespected?Because that’s the messaging. I wanna do a whole follow up on this. First of all, I wanna know what people think. About this topic, like do you agree with what we said here? Are you completely upset by what we said here? Do you think that we’re completely off base? Absolutely tell us, because I think different perspectives are important in these conversations.But I do wanna have a follow up to this that I think we should get on soon, because we’ve talked a lot about boundary setting. Before, and that’s really important to us as human beings and as coaches and as parents and boundaries are critical. But I recently saw an article that was saying that all of this boundary setting is making us pretty lonely because we’re taking it to an extreme.So I do think that should be a follow-up discussion for us.[00:34:44] Lara: Yeah, I think that’ll be great. So yes, everybody, please let us know what you think. Come into the comments, share with us, that’s what we do every week. We talk about the things that we wanna dig into, and I can’t wait to do more on the boundary setting too.[00:34:57] Rowan: Thanks for joining us this week. We really appreciate you.[00:35:00] Lara:Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Content warning: This episode discusses cancer and health anxiety. We know these can be challenging and deeply personal topics for some. Please take care.Rowan here. I wanted to record this episode while I was in the thick of facing one of my biggest fears: that I might have cancer.If you’ve ever had a biopsy, you know that worry. Add in a lifelong struggle with illness anxiety (what used to be known as “hypochondria”) and a huge upset to my life at a time when things were already stressful, and I was drowning in fear of the unknown.But it doesn’t have to be a health scare. Uncertainty of any kind can send some of us spiraling. In those moments, we’ll often tell ourselves that if we can just get through [stressor] or know for certain about [stressor], that we’ll be able to relax.But what if we could find calm within the storm and not have to wait until after it passes?Lara and I discuss tips and tricks on how to do this, and the lessons we’ve learned having to spend time with our fear in uncertain times. Believe me, I’ve learned a lot this time around.Sending love and support to everyone going through their own uncertainties in this wildly uncertain times.P.S.: if you hang out until the end, there’s an update on my health.Links: Episode on FairnessEpisode on Unexpected ChangeLara makes art - follow her on InstagramRowan is opening a coffee shop - follow it on YoutubeTranscriptThe full transcript is available on Substack - come on over and check it out by click on the transcript button at the top of the post. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Let’s start with this: We love our kids. We really do. But does that mean we think everyone should want to raise children?Parenting is the biggest commitment a human being can make. After all, nothing changes your life more than adding another one to it—and one you’re responsible for, no less. It’s not a decision that should be taken lightly, but the messages in society strongly lean towards growing a family. Those who don’t often get labelled “selfish” and “immature.”A lot of the conversations on remaining childless come from folks without kids, and those perspectives are valuable. But we wanted to add our two cents to the mix. With eight kids and decades of highs and lows in raising them between us, we think you might want to hear our perspectives, too.Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara also shares a lot of her art on Instagram.Transcript(please note, transcripts are not edited for accuracy or spelling)[00:00:00] Rowan: I would be lying if I said that every single moment of parenthood has been a wonderful experience and magical, and that I would sing. Its praises to anyone who asks because. I won't, don't regret any of my choices.[00:00:42] Lara: Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara.[00:00:44] Rowan: AndI'm Rowan[00:00:46] Lara: and I am gonna start off by just talking about the fact that I am a mother of three teenagers and I think that the only thing that I ever really knew about myself is that I wanted to have children. That is where I'm gonna start.[00:01:02] Rowan: Oh, there's a big but coming.[00:01:06] Lara: But, and this is what we're gonna talk about today, I don't think that being a parent is the end all and be all, and that society should keep trying to tell everybody that they should want to have kids. And so that's what we're gonna talk about today.[00:01:22] Rowan: I'm really excited about this topic because we're seeing that a lot.We're Canadian and we're seeing this idea of the traditional family, and I'm using air quotes here because traditional family, depending on where you live in the world, looks very different. But the traditional westernized idea of a family that is coming up again and again and again south of the border where.The idea of a man marrying a woman and then having children, the whole point of this is to procreate and bring children into the world and carry on the next generation for whatever reason. Sometimes political, sometimes religious, whatever it is. Sometimes just because this is just what the media has taught us from the beginning.This is coming up more and more and more. So I have five children. I'm a trans man. I gave birth to three children. Adopted one when she was a teenager, and my partner also has a child. So between us we have five. So I have always wanted to be a parent that is something just like you, Lara, that is something that I've always dreamed of.The idea of having kids fill me with joy. The idea of a life without children. Made me really sad. I had polycystic ovarian syndrome and had a difficult time conceiving and that broke my heart. And you know, we had pregnancy losses and all, kinds of things and, I am very happy I had children.But, but it's not for everyone. And I would be lying if I said that every single moment of parenthood has been a wonderful experience and magical, and that I would sing. Its praises to anyone who asks because. I won't, don't regret any of my choices. I love my children and they're amazing. They're all adults now.All of our kids are 18 and up. They are fantastic human beings, all five of them. I'm so proud of them. And also truly, and know everyone says this, but I really mean it from the bottom of my heart, and I've done a lot of difficult things. Raising kids is the hardest thing I have ever done.[00:03:49] Lara: Yep.Period.[00:03:51] Rowan: You should see Lara's face right now. It says a lot more than that Yep.[00:03:57] Lara: Yeah,I think that. One of the reasons I think this topic is so interesting is that for years, and you know, admittedly I haven't been in spaces as often where I hear this as much anymore, but I think it's still around, which is this idea of people who say they don't want to have children, and then other people saying, you'll regret that.Oh, you'll see when you're older, you're gonna change your mind. Oh, no, no, no. It's the best thing you could ever do. And I think that while it can be amazing. That if somebody does not want children, they should not have children because I wanted children more than anything, which meant that I was all in, right?Like I am all in on whatever it takes to do the thing. And I struggled really hard quite a lot of the time. And so imagine if you didn't really wanna do the thing in the first place, how miserable you'd belike, eugh.[00:04:53] Rowan: I'm going to admit something here.I got pregnant at 19. And we were like, okay, well I guess we're doing this. We decided we're gonna do this. We're gonna have this baby. He's now 28 years old. He's a wonderful human being. He's so kind and thoughtful and smart, and I could just go on and on about him. I love this kid.He's just a amazing, so truly a great decision. But also I became a parent at 20 years old and. I felt a lot of judgment because a lot of people are not parents at that age, and a lot of times when parents are that age, there is an assumption of who we are as people. And it's not a good assumption.It's never a good assumption. And so I walked around very worried about what other people thought of my choices, and I would get comments, and they would hit extra hard. If anyone had any criticisms of my parenting, it hit me extra hard back then because. It just felt like it was reinforcing the idea that I was going to be a terrible parent and I doubled down.I decided that I was going to be the best damn parent you have ever seen in your entire life, which is impossible, by the way. What a standard to live up to. There's no such thing, and also I became staunch. In my belief that everybody should have children. And that had nothing to do with anybody else.But when we talk about the person who you say to them, I never wanna have children, and. Their first thought is, oh, you're really gonna regret that when you're older. What a mistake that's going to be. I used to think that way, but it had nothing to do with the other people. It had everything to do with trying to justify my own choices and my own insecurities around those choices to myself, and I think that's what happens sometimes now, sometimes somebody is just so enamored with being a parent.But they can't imagine not being a parent. And I get that right, I understand because that love is so strong and those highs are so high, and sometimes we forget that those lows are so, so low too. It's quite the rollercoaster, but I do think that there are people who feel like once they have children.This should be the greatest thing they've ever done, and they should be really happy about it pretty much all the time. And when it doesn't live up to that standard, they get like me and they go, well, I have to justify it to myself. It has to be the best thing ever. So I'm gonna. have to believe that and then force that on everybody else.I swear , that's what I did. I'm not saying everyone does that truly, I wanna really say that, but I do think there's an element of that in society.[00:08:00] Lara: Yeah, there are different facets to that. One being like we need to justify it to ourselves. One is that we don't even let ourselves consider anything different.So we've talked about this. When it comes to other things, education, career, right? It comes up, but there's like a path that society has said you're supposed to go on. And if you followed the path without. Asking yourself if you wanted it, but because you were supposed to, then you don't want to consider that you shouldn't have done that and therefore you are never gonna consider that a different path is the right one to be on.Like, we should all go through it. So there's the one where it's just huge blinders to even. Just like how you're doing, right? It's just like, this is how you do it, this is how you do it, this is how you do it. And then there I think is the part where I'm sure it comes up like, I did it. If I had to do it, why don't you have to do it?And that comes through in again, work. It's like people who I think insist that the only way that effective workers can do their job is by being in the office. I think there just has to be a part of it like I had to go to the office every day.[00:09:11] Rowan: Yeah, yeah, that's right.[00:09:13] Lara: you are just gonna not have to do that?That's not fair. so I think that there's all those kinds of things like it's. Just simply so taught that the next step after, getting yourself settled, quote unquote, and like, it's a whole deeper, bigger discussion now with the fact that it's really hard to have enough money to be settled now, but that once you're there, you should be having children because that is your job to repopulate the world or whatnot, and it's clearly important.To governments and such, like, I'm always like, why don't we just have less people? I don't think we need more people, but in order for the economy to keep going, capitalism, I don't know. , There's clearly reasons that make people scared when suddenly people are having less children. Whereas I was like, Hey, maybe less people would be easier to manage, but I don't know.Yeah. The government wants us to repopulate the earth. I don't understand why.[00:10:11] Rowan: Exactly. Exactly.This comes downto the same energy that I get from some cisgender people when they talk about transgender people and say that we don't exist. This can't possibly be a real thing. we have to be mentally ill , to think that we are not the gender we were assigned at birth, et cetera. And it's the same energy that a lot of gay people have to face when they tell people they're gay.And they're like, well, no, you mean I, that's weird. I'm not gay. So you can't be gay. I'm not trans. So you can't be trans. I want kids. You can't not want kids. You can't not feel different from me because. This is the norm, this is the baseline. So anything outside of that is wrong.And we do ourselves a disservice as human beings when we expect conformity. Conformity in any way, frankly. I mean, obviously we need to have some rules and regulations to keep society functioning, but this idea that everybody has to want the same things, live the same life experience, the same.Contentment from that. Life is counterintuitive because as humans, the way that we innovate and grow and survive as a species is by having different brains, different bodies, different wants, different needs. If we all did the exact same thing and felt the exact same way about it, I think we would just be ants.And you know, ants are cool, but we're not ants. This should be the quote for this podcast.[00:11:53] Lara: We're not ants.[00:11:54] Rowan: Ants are cool, but we're not ants. Sometimes I think I need to drink more coffee before we start these.[00:12:02] Lara: Or maybe you just are fun and all of these things are interesting and great to say no matter what,[00:12:09] Rowan: this is why I do a podcast with you.'cause you stroke my ego. Thank you. Appreciate that.[00:12:13] Lara: My pleasure.I think it always comes back around to this, but there's that whole, why is school the way it is? why are we given so many rules like it is. Easier and better for us to have been taught to live life a certain way, to not try to be too individualistic, to not try to go off wherever we wanna go.And so we're conditioned to think things are supposed to be a certain way. And it's just like when I talk about there's no one way to do a thing, there's no one way that a brain is right. We did our brain episode because we're all so different, but so much of what we're taught. Is everybody is the same, so everybody should be on the same path, and it's like a little production line kind of situation.And so when we stop believing that one path. Is the best path idea. That can mean a difference in our career. It can mean a difference in where we wanna live, what kind of house we wanna live in, what kind of family structure we wanna have, whether or not we want to have children.I don't know if I've said this before on the podcast, but like the idea of the lost bigger community , that we have our families in very siloed situations now, I think is part of the problem and the idea of having, I don't know what to call it. Other than, I'm gonna call it a community.my husband likes to tease me that I'm like, ready to start a commune / cult. But I think that having a place where people can come together in community and share the load of things would be better. And our society is not set up that way. Like it's not the way life is, right? Like people would be like, what are you doing? That's not how we do life. It would require a lot of shifting of norms and doing things that people wouldn't expect in order to create a community like that. And so when a society teaches us to be a certain way, it's so that there aren't all these outliers.They're like, just, just, just be good. Be ants. Like we want you to be,[00:14:10] Rowan: Be ants![00:14:11] Lara: We may not be ants, but they kind of want us to be. And so when we're like, actually we're not ants. What do we want? It is, something that some people are not gonna want us to do. And so we haven't been taught to do it naturally and all of that to say, whether I'm talking about your career, your housing, Where you live or whether or not you wanna have children, like all of these things come up and you get to stop and say, what would suit me best? And then you get to trust yourself. Right? The people who come back and say you're gonna regret it later are trying to make you not trust yourself. Like, I don't want kids.Oh, but what if I do regret it later? But like so many people I know when they're like, I don't want kids. Like, I have no question marks around that. But people are still trying to make them doubt themselves.[00:14:58] Rowan: Yeah. And yet, quite often it does not happen in reverse unless you are maybe talking to a whole bunch of friends who are childless by choice and you say, I want to have a baby.And then at that point, you might get some pushback and you might not. But for the most part, when somebody says. I want to have children. It is never questioned, In society because of course you wanna have children. Of course you do. It is the same thing as straight. People never have to come out as straight, right?Because of course you're straight. That's the default. The default is straight. So you have to come out as something else, right? You know? You don't have to come out as straight and I think that we do a disservice when. We expect everyone else to be just like us, and we also sometimes do a disservice to our own children in expecting that everyone else has children.I'm gonna give you a couple of anecdotal examples. I know a teacher and she is honestly one of the best teachers she taught two of my children. One of the best teachers my children have ever had. She does not have children, and I have never asked her, 'cause none of my business, whether she just chose not to have children or she couldn't have children.Regardless. What she has told me before is one of the gifts of not having children of her own. Is she dedicates all of her energy into the children She teaches, right? So she gets to go home and recoup. So she spends all day in a classroom. She's helping lots of kids. Some of those kids have, various needs that, need extra attention and care, and she's able to give it all because when she goes home, her only responsibility is her cat.And everything else in her life is she watches the shows she wants to watch, she goes on the vacation, she wants to take, she sees the friends, she wants to see, and she doesn't have that extra responsibility of then having to go home and take care of other children.Now, I also know a lot of really wonderful teachers who have children, so I'm not saying that that's like the key to being a great teacher, but in her words. That is what she's able to do in her opinion, a little bit better than if she had children. I also know, my partner and I have a friend who is a, woman who has been adamant from day one.She never wanted children. She also has lots of money. She comes from money. She has made a lot of money, and she lives the life that she wants to live. She also has a nephew who she spoils rotten and she has taken him on tours of Europe and she has had him over to her house to do all kinds of cool things.And she's always there for him as he gets older and he needs an adult to talk to who isn't his parents. and she's able to give something different than his parents give him. That compliments what they're doing. If she had her own children, she probably wouldn't be able to give as much.And she has made the decision in her life like she loves kids. She just doesn't want any of her own. And I think that's also the fallacy that a lot of us believe that if you don't want children, it's because you don't like them. That's not true a lot of the time. Maybe you don't relate to them super well.In some cases. I've seen that and I have seen that a handful of people have been like, I don't like kids. Which frankly for me is a big red flag. If somebody does not like someone based on the age of that, someone. Across the board, like I don't think it's good to make generalizations about an entire age group of people, you know, or to just write them all off as like, you know, not worth your time.But. Most of the people I know who don't have kids, get along with kids quite well, have children in their lives to one extent or another. They just don't want to take on the responsibility of caring for them 24 7, which is fair, good on you. And it gives them the time and the space to be around kids in a way that works for them.And often that works really well for the children.[00:19:24] Lara: Yes. You've said a lot of things and I wanna try to come back to a couple of them. One, I wanna talk about the whole, I don't like kids thing because I think that can be a combination of things. One is I don't know what to do with them. Right? Yeah. So it's not necessarily, I don't like kids 'cause they're.Terrible. They're like, they make me uncomfortable. And I do not know how to relate. And I think that's okay too.[00:19:50] Rowan: Yeah, totally fair I think it's the idea of like, I don't like children. You know, when someone's like, Ugh, I hate kids. That kind of thing really turns me off because I'm like,I don't hate any group of people.[00:20:02] Lara: And I bet that most of them-[00:20:03] Rowan: White supremacists.[00:20:05] Lara: What's that?[00:20:06] Rowan: White supremacists. I hate white supremacists. Okay. Anyway, other than that though,[00:20:11] Lara: me too. That one. yeah. I just think that so many people when they say, I don't like this or I hate this, a lot of it actually comes from discomfort and not knowing how to deal with things.And I get that. Quickly. I was gonna say about the teacher thing. I would spend time thinking like how? How could somebody have kids at home and then go and deal with kids all day and then go home and have kids at home and then go deal with kids all day? I've always thought like, oh, that would be so hard.But that's probably 'cause I found parenting hard in a lot of ways in terms of, it taking away from my energy and working and doing other things was what gave me the energy to go back to it. So I'm sure that for me, that's where that came from. So I might say, how could you ever want that?But that's me again, projecting my feelings and my own capacity on other people.[00:21:01] Rowan: I mean for sure, but also as somebody who ran a daycare outta my home and also worked at a school, both in the daycare and in the classroom for a good while. It is exhausting. 'cause then you go home and then you have to deal with your own kids and, help them with their homework or pick them up from daycare or whatever it is you're doing.And like, they're tired and they're hungry and you just did this all day long. it is a different feeling. It is really tiring and I know tons of people who do it. Like having worked in the school system, I know a lot of. Teachers who are also parents and a lot of assistants and a lot of different people who, take care of kids during the day while raising their own hats off to you.Because I didn't do it as a career for a really long time and I felt pretty burned out at the end of it. So, mad, mad respect to you.[00:21:53] Lara: Totally. Another thing that you said was, and I don't know if she didn't have children by choice or not, and it's none of my business and I think that that's an important piece here, right?Number one, don't ask people about whether or not they're gonna have children all the time. There's probably a lot of people you've encountered who don't have children and they have been trying and it is going to be crushing to them to be reminded that they don't have children. So that's.one thing, but also think about what insisting, having children being like the most wonderful thing you can do in your life would do to somebody who desperately wanted children and can't have them. It really isn't the only way to have a good life. You can have a great life without having children again.I love my children. I'm so happy that I have them. Everything is great about that, but certainly I don't think I would've had a terrible life without them.[00:22:46] Rowan: Yeah, exactly, exactly. again, just more stories from my past, but I mentioned earlier I had polycystic ovarian syndrome and it made conceiving much harder. And I was on, this is where I'm gonna age myself, a web board.A web board, by the way, called Soul Sisters, but sisters spelt. CYST, ERS, obviously,[00:23:08] Lara: Right, obviously,[00:23:10] Rowan: obviously. and more than once, I would say five or six times, easily, and I think I'm being very conservative here. There were people, women were the people who are on this board for the most part. Who had been trying to conceive because of their own fertility issues for a very long time.Some of them eight, 10 years, and their wish came true. They were finally able to have a baby, and it didn't live up to the hype. Because for that decade say they had been telling themselves a story about what parenthood was going to be like, if they could just get pregnant and have a child, then everything would be great and I would.See pictures come in about, you know, the baby shower and the clothes they purchased for this baby and the beautiful room. and some of them had professionally decorated because they had a lot of money to do this. You know, they had been trying for a long time. They were both full-time professionals and they had everything going for them except they couldn't have a child.And then they finally are able to have a child and, I mean, that is amazing. Or they maybe adopted a child, but most of 'em were finally able to conceive. And then the depression set in. Now I had postpartum depression, so you can really get depressed from a hormone drop.But what I was seeing over time, at least for the first little while until they were able to adjust to the reality of having a baby was that parenthood was a lot harder and a bit of a letdown for them because they had romanticized it for so long, and this is. What I really want people to, understand, and I think we're doing a better job of this now, you and I, Lara, , we were bloggers at the time of like the mommy blog.And the mommy blogs, as a general rule, were blogs that. Highlighted only the best of parenting there. There were very, very few, I would say, the Bloggess being one of them. and dare I say my own blog at the time, 'cause I was very honest about how hard parenting was, but there were very few blogs out there.That actually talked about how challenging parenthood could be. So you would just see these highlight reels of, these are the crafts we made, and this is the museum that we went to, and this is the beautiful vacation we took. And you're not seeing the meltdowns, mom crying in the bathroom after she finally gets her child to sleep.You're not seeing, you know. The kid throwing up on the plane, you're not seeing any of that stuff. You're only seeing how wonderful it is. So this is what these moms who were trying to conceive were witnessing and what they thought, I think from looking inward, what they thought they were getting. I really think we need to be, and we are starting to get there, thankfully, that there's definitely a rise in this, but we need to be much more honest about how hard it is.It is truly, like I said, the hardest thing I've ever done. There were challenges. I was not expecting, and it's not over. As soon as they turn 18, as soon as they're adults, they still need you. So you are forever carrying that responsibility to one extent or another throughout their lives. This is a lifelong commitment.If you do it, make sure you really wanna do it.[00:26:40] Lara: Make sure you really wanna do it. Yeah. Don't do it if you don't. Really wanna do it. And I think you're right. There's a lot of things we never talked about, even like in pregnancy. So you'd hear about like, there's morning sickness and then labor hurts, but like, what about all the people who struggled with so many things throughout pregnancy?And I, I remember being pregnant, be like, nobody ever told me this was true. Nobody told me this would happen. And then with. Babies, like you hear about the sleepless nights and you hear about the trouble with teething. Toilet training and then that's it. But there's like a lot of other things, guys.There's a lot of other things[00:27:18] Rowan: and there's so much focus on the first like five years of a child's life, forgetting that. Honestly, I think the hardest part, those teenage years are really tough. But also I would say like between 18 and 25 is really hard because they're adults .You technically have no control anymore.and they're still figuring themselves out. And the world is not set up to support them right now. So there's a lot of, I need some help with the rent or, I don't know what to do for school because AI is taking all the jobs or there's all these things that happen.I can't afford food. Relationship breakups, but relationships that were like two or three years long and they're a big deal to break up. I mean, all these things are happening. Mental health struggles. maybe some other medical struggles, but you don't have any control over that anymore because they're adults.And it is a lot of responsibility. And again, if my children are listening, but don't worry, they never listen to my stuff. They don't care what I do. They don't, I'm just, I'm just their old dad. They don't care. but I love. Being a dad, it's awesome. there's some things that I have gained and we should talk about that too, for sure.But there's some, insights, some wisdom that I have gained from parenthood that I'm not sure I would've gained any other way. but it is such a challenge too. And if you are not all in on it, don't do it.[00:28:45] Lara: Yeah, I think as we're talking, I, I had a little bit being like, I need to say it again, but we really love our children.Um, but we really love our children. Right.[00:28:53] Rowan: By the way,[00:28:54] Lara: by the way, but I think it's important to just talk about it. My kids throughout their lives have heard me say, I changed my mind. They're like, what? I was like, I don't want children.[00:29:07] Rowan: I'm sending you back.[00:29:08] Lara: And they know I'm kidding and they feel loved , and it's all good.But like that is like a truth of a moment where you're just like, I don't wanna do this right now. And I think it's important to know that, and I wanna acknowledge that because I think that so many people who didn't have children by choice or who didn't have children by not choice have. been just hammered their whole lives with how much they've lost and how bad of a decision there was.I was telling you before we just hit record, that there had been a famous person who I'd recently seen and I went and looked it up and it's Chappell Roan who said she didn't wanna have children because everybody she knew who had children were not happy. And I can even see how I wouldn't have seemed all that happy a lot of the time.Right. Like It's challenging in a lot of ways. It's not, going to museums. Well, even if it is going to museums. Right? We went to museums and then the kids don't like the snacks you brought or they don't all wanna go to the same place and I remember leaving the mall once with.Probably they were not quite 2-year-old twins having meltdowns, and I had one over my left shoulder and one under my right arm, and they were both screaming as I walked through the mall to get back to my car.[00:30:22] Rowan: And you're like, everyone thinks I'm the worst parent ever right now. You know, they're not thinking you're the worst parent.They are sympathizing. They're looking at that going, oh, that poor mother, that poor mother.[00:30:32] Lara: Oh yeah. I've been there,[00:30:34] Rowan: but at the time, I remember having to throw one over my shoulder and walk out of a Walmart as they were screaming. and he's just pounding my back. He's just so upset. He's so beyond, and I'm like, I look like I'm abducting this child right now. I look like I am taking him away from his parents. And it is just, I'm like, who's gonna come and stop me? weirdly nobody came and stop me,[00:30:55] Lara: because they've all been there, the chances are much higher that this is a kid having a meltdown, than anything else but.Yeah, I think it's just very layered and I hope that the idea of this conversation was really just to say, Hey, there's not one way to do life. You don't have to do things the way other people did. You're not missing out. If you go a different route, I mean, if anything, I'm missing out on being able to travel the world at the, drop of a hat. I'm missing out on some things.[00:31:24] Rowan: Oh, I'm missing out on retirement savings.That's what I'm missing out on by the way.[00:31:29] Lara: Yeah,[00:31:30] Rowan: yeah. How am I gonna retire? I feel like with five kids, one of them's gotta be rich.[00:31:35] Lara: fingers crossed.[00:31:39] Rowan: I do wanna touch before we end on. Some of the gifts that we've received from parenthood. 'cause I don't want people to think like, wow, these two just got on and complained the whole time. I don't feel negative about having children. I just feel, like it needs a realistic view. But for myself, I will say I learned a love that I did not think was possible.It is such a profound. Love right to the core. Like no question I would stand in front of a train for any of my children. Like that's , not even up for debate. I learned to put someone before myself, which I wasn't able to do before. And I know we've talked a lot about people pleasing, and we've talked a lot about putting yourself first, and those things are really important.I always put my needs first because I have to, it's like putting that whole oxygen mask on yourself first before the person next to you on a plane, we've all been taught that, so my needs have always come before anything else, but my child's needs have now come before my wants. And having that push me to be less self-centered than I was, I think has been really good. And that's not the only way to learn this. I'm not saying that people who don't have kids are all self-centered. That's not the lesson here. What I'm saying is, as a dad. I have grown by leaps and bounds because that unconditional love has pushed me outside of my comfort zone time and time again, and I think has made me a better person, and I'm really grateful for that.I had a moment a few weeks ago. Both my sons ended up for a variety of reasons. I won't get into both of them. Ended up. Couch surfing at our place for a few weeks, in between places that they were living and in between school semesters and that sort of thing, and having them here. And my other child, my non-binary child who does live with us, with their partner, having them all there.And then my sons had their partners over and they were all just kind of hanging out together. I saw. The comradery that they all have. I saw the nostalgia that they shared. I saw the love that they showed their partners and the really healthy relationships that they're building. I saw them talk about their future and all the hopes and dreams they have.I just felt so complete. Like that to me was a moment that I will take to my deathbed one day and hopefully remember as I go on to wherever we go next, because that level of fulfillment that weirdly to say as a dad, but as a dad who's trans, as someone who grew these little beings inside of me and gave them the nourishment that they needed for the first few months of life and watched them grow up into these amazing young adults who are all so different and so remarkable.I am proud in a way. I could never be proud of myself. I'm proud in a way. I could never be proud of anyone else. They are just the most amazing people, and that is the gift that parenting gave me.[00:35:04] Lara: Yeah. There's a lot of moments of delight and pride in seeing these children turn into.Functional adults, right? Like the, or like having these personalities and just seeing how they grow and they change and how different they are and how they're not like you, but they teach you about what it means to be not like you. Like I have learned. So much from my children and even from the struggles we've had, I have learned to understand the world more.A lot of the things that I talk about in this podcast, in my book, in my work, comes from things I took the time to understand better when first sort of. Prompted by some of the things that happened with my kids. There's a lot of good stuff. We love our kids, guys.[00:35:53] Rowan: Guys. Really, really okay. Especially , the people who are listening who are related to us.We love our children. No, but. There are a number of podcasts if you search this topic, about whether or not you should have children, and a lot of those podcasts are by people who are childless by choice, and I think that's a fantastic. Viewpoint to take. Right? You do need people who've never had kids to say, Hey, you should really consider whether or not you want to have children.And did you know there are options? You don't hear it as often from people who have, between us eight children, right? We have eight kids between us.clearly you can see how much we adore them. And also I think the perspective. Coming from the other side of it. Now, especially, you know, , in my case, where my children are all adults, it is good to hear from people who've had children that know if you don't want children, that does not mean you're going to regret that choice later.That there are many ways to be in a child's life without having a child yourself. And honestly, can I just say as somebody who fostered and then adopted a child from the foster care system, that there are many paths to parenthood later in life. Should you want to look at that idea again? You don't have to have a child yourself.There are other ways to be present in a child's life. In a live in situation too, you can foster, you can adopt, you can be a mentor to children. There's so many options out there, so no, please don't listen to this idea that finding someone, getting married, making babies equals the only good life you can have.As somebody who did that exact thing, and I'm happy I did. I also know a ton of people who didn't do that, who are my age. I'm almost 50 or older, who are just as happy and maybe even happier than me. I don't know. It's hard to measure that, but certainly just as happy as me and made different choices.[00:38:07] Lara: Yeah.If you have a perspective on this topic that you wanna share with us, please . Come to our substack, send us an email. We wanna hear more and more ideas and different points of view. We love that we're getting to the point where we've now had follow up topics, like we're gonna talk some more about this stuff.So come and talk to us and thank you for joining us today.[00:38:30] Rowan: Thank you so much. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

This episode is a milestone one - our twentieth! This little podcast we dreamed up last Spring has been a joy to create, and we so appreciate everyone who has subscribed and supported us along with all of you who’ve called it fancy things like “thought-provoking.” We want to keep this up, so if you haven’t already, please subscribe here on Substack, via your podcast apps, leave a review in one of the places you listen, and share with your friends. Every little bit helps us grow and keep bringing these to you. Today’s episode is about life in the online space. Why do people share online? What’s considered an overshare? Are chronic selfies a sign of a raging narcissist? Both of us have been online since the 90s, so we have a lot of experience figuring out what we’re comfortable with, what we want to share, why we share it, and what we’ve done that no longer works for us (and there’s a lot of that!). If you have any thoughts or anything to add - we’d love to hear in the comments!LinksWhat is a BBSTranscript(Transcripts are not edited for accuracy and may have some errors)[00:00:00] Lara: For those who feel comfortable sharing their stories, there are people out there who are receiving those stories and suddenly feeling like somebody gets me, somebody is willing to talk about something I didn't understand or that scared me and I didn't even know I needed that.But thank you. Hey there.[00:00:43] Rowan: Welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.[00:00:47] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:48] Rowan: And Lara. This is episode 20, number 20.[00:00:53] Lara: Crazy Town.[00:00:55] Rowan: I can't believe we've done 20 episodes.[00:00:57] Lara: Yeah, but also I knew we would have lots to talk about.[00:01:02] Rowan: I think what people don't know is that. We always set a time to record and then we spend 45 minutes to an hour just chatting before we actually record.[00:01:14] Lara: Yeah. And we've had people we've recorded,as a guest and they're like, oh, I see why you do this. It's almost like therapy included with the podcast episode. And I agree there's a lot of that. Being able to just talk through things, share things, connect with people.[00:01:30] Rowan: Yeah. And actually this ties into what we are talking about today because we often decide what we're going to talk about in that hour before we record.We'll come up with a list of ideas and we text each other back and forth, like, oh, I just thought of this. And then, you know, Lara will add it to a list. And then I'll say, okay, what do you wanna talk about today? And she'll read off the list of things and then we'll pick one that just kind of resonates with us that day.The idea that we have this whole chat session before we actually record is very similar to the topic that we had in mind, which is social media there are a lot of beliefs around the use of social media. So for example, if you are on social media, everything you're presenting is extremely curated.It may be fake, you know, you may just be posting a lot of fake things. Or there's the concept of oversharing. You're sharing too much with the world. You're being too open, or the idea that. If you do put yourself out there, it is always because you're very self-centered and perhaps, you know, narcissistic.And this goes back to what I was talking about a minute ago where we have this, , maybe half hour to hour long conversation before we record this podcast because not everything we say to each other privately is going to go out to the public.However, everything that we present to the public is still, in my opinion, very authentic. We just don't share everything, right?[00:03:01] Lara: Mm-hmm. And. I think that almost becomes a double edged sword. So there people are like, why don't you share everything? And then other people like. You share too much, like there's no winning in some ways, but I think that understanding that being on social media can be a really good way to connect with people, to build community, to find people who understand who you are, to feel understood, and you can do that without sacrificing privacy, without sacrificing.everything that is quote unquote real in the world, which can't possibly be found online. And finding that balance is something that I think you and I have been doing for a long time. Like we have been online for longer than most people I know. I've been online. For a really long time, and I often joke like before most people knew the internet existed, I was chatting with people online.[00:04:02] Rowan: Yeah. Well, I think we're the first generation that, you know, this was introduced to us at a young enough age that we could adopt it into our daily lives. So before the internet, there were dialup modems that connected to other people's dialup modems, and you would have bulletin board systems or BBSs.My partner and I ran one of those back in the day when I was a teenager.[00:04:32] Lara: What was it called?[00:04:33] Rowan: It was called Cyber Pigs. Not for any pervy reasons. I can't remember why we called it that. We were just young and came up with like, we thought it was like an edgy name or something.I don't know. I can't remember now. Anyway, it was actually quite popular and people would dial up from all over to join our BBS. We had people calling from the states, there were long distance charges, long distance charges apply, right? Like that was a thing.But, so we did that and then we opened another one. That one was called. Mary Lou's Complex and again. Ask me why? I don't know. It just sounded cool. It was like the grunge era, doesn't that sound like a band name or something?[00:05:11] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:05:12] Rowan: Yeah. And then we started dialing up into, I think it was, in Ottawa, Carleton University's, internet, I can't remember what it was called, but it was like, that's where you could go out onto the web.So. I have been using the internet for a very long time, for a multitude of reasons, and I'm not alone, but we weren't given any courses on how to behave online social media was invented in our era. We had MySpace, then we had Facebook, and then went on from there.We had to learn what the rules are. We had to make the rules for that. Right.[00:05:45] Lara: Yeah. I also spent a lot of time on BBSs. I did not have my own. but in the nineties I did some sketch things with, you know, talking to people online, meeting people from online enough that I knew.That some things are not a good thing to do and some things are okay to do, and so certainly I've been learning for a long time what it is that feels correct for me when I'm putting myself into online spaces,[00:06:15] Rowan: And what does work for you? What, have you garnered in your, gosh, how long have we been online now?Over like what, 30 years? Longer than 30 years, so, wow, wow, wow. But what is it that you have figured out about your self and where that line is for you between being present online and oversharing?[00:06:38] Lara: So I share a lot about myself. So the biggest thing that I think I have decided for myself is that if it's about me and I in any given moment, feel comfortable talking about it.Then it's okay. But if it involves other people, if it brings other people into the story less so when my kids were little, I started a blog and I would talk about my kids online all the time in the context of we did this craft, we went to this museum. Right? So it wasn't like, let's talk about their behavior.But as they've gotten older, once they, hit even prepubescent, like I stopped talking about them as much, right? So, because now I really wanna respect anything that they have to say. So for me, even posting photos online, I still do have them, but I always ask their permission first, right? Like, that's a lot of how I feel about it.I know what I'm okay with. Yes or no. Do I feel comfortable putting that out into the world and always remembering. If I'm with other people, if they're in a story, I need to be aware of that and make sure they're okay with it before I post anything.[00:07:49] Rowan: I'm very mindful of that too, and I, I wasn't always, I was careful with my kids.I also had a parenting blog. And I was at home with the kids, so I talked about the kids a lot when they were very, very young. I posted pictures and I think that that is true of a lot of parents of our age. We weren't really considering the ramifications yet, most of us of posting.Pictures of our young children and the fact that those would get archived and they would stay there forever. And that's their privacy. So I've learned now, and I learned a good while ago not to do that. I did write a book and a blog about my child being trans. That was really because my child wanted me to do that, my child, very much, because when they came out as trans, when they figured out they were trans before they even came out.They couldn't find any really happy or, supportive stories from families where these kids were able to come out and live a good life. And they really wanted, since I already had the platform for us to be that. But we also had a lot of talks about privacy and about how you can't put the genie back in the bottle.So once you are out there, you're out there and it's there forever I think even now I would do things a little differently than I did back then. So we, we learn. We learn and we grow. But I'm really big about. Not posting any photos of them anymore, not really talking about them much anymore, because I want them to have their lives.I also have a fairly large platform, and not everybody who follows me as a trans. Activist is somebody who's a fan, if you will.So I really want to protect the people around me. Everything that I do post, no matter who it is, whether it's a friend, whether it's my partner, whether it's you know, anybody, I always ask their permission for that reason too, because I don't want that photo.To get picked up and posted in the depths of the internet that you and I don't go to where I know posts like that are, and pictures like that are shared and have people go, oh, who is that person? We should figure out who they are and, oh, what's that building? I wonder if that's close to one of their homes.And these are the things that happen, right, that doxing does happen. So it is a matter of being very. Mindful, but I do it for security reasons as well.[00:10:22] Lara: Yeah. So when there's risk like that, it certainly brings up the idea of why do you share things at all.and I think that's part of what we definitely wanted to cover today because I think as much as a lot of people think there's a dark side, why are you sharing all this stuff, we shouldn't be online. so much or sharing photos means that you weren't present in the moment. Like there's so many things that people believe about what it. Means to be somebody who shares a lot of your life online. Oh, you're just one of those influencers who's trying to capitalize on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.It's a lot of stuff. So what is the benefit? Like why? I mean, I know why I do it, and I think we both are gonna connect on some of this, but like, what's the bright side? What's the good side? Why is it anything more than just you like to talk about yourself a lot, huh?[00:11:11] Rowan: So right before I hopped on our Zoom call, I got a message request on Instagram, and yesterday I had shared that at the end of this month, right now, this month being September, I will be getting top surgery, which is a gender affirming surgery where my breasts will be removed. think of a mastectomy, and you know, sort of contoured and shaped to look and feel more like the chest. I think that I should have as a trans man and. I got a lot of really wonderful messages and I got a lot of really horrible messages, but I did get this one message from somebody, who said,I just wanna thank you for beingso open about your transition.It gives me hope that I can have a life as a trans person too, because this person is younger and. Right now, does not have access to the care that I have and does not live in a safe area and feels very hopeless much of the time. So for them to see that you can grow older as a trans person, I just turned 49.And that you can be loved and that you can love, and that you can have a career, and that you can follow your dreams, and that you can get access to care and that all those things can happen even if it takes a little while. That is one of the things that keeps them going. And if that were the only message I receive like that, I mean, I would still matter very much, but it's not, I hear from people almost every day.That my presence online, the work that I do, just sort of being visible helps them either learn how to be kinder to trans people and other people who are not like them. Helps them learn what misinformation looks like so they hear all these awful things about trans people. Then they see a trans person just out there living, smiling, being happy, celebrating his birthday, whatever's going on.And that flies in the face of these lies that they're being told about us. or it helps people figure themselves out. Or to see that if they have figured themselves out and they feel a lot like me to see that maybe there is some more hope for them out there and that there's a life waiting for them.So this is why I do it, and I get a lot of pushback for it. I get a disgusting amount of hate. And, I'd like to say I'm used to it. I don't think you ever get used to getting that kind of hate, but I have grown accustomed to knowing it's going to show up because whenever you push the narrative forward, whenever you make people uncomfortable, there is a pushback, but I don't do it.because I'm vain, I don't do it because I'm a narcissist. I get accused of those things all the time. It actually makes me very uncomfortable to be in the spotlight. Not so uncomfortable that I won't do it, but I certainly don't get off on it. do it because I know it's helping and my entire. Job on this earth, as far as I'm concerned, is just to leave the world a little better than when I entered it in some way.In some way. That I can do that and this is one of the ways I can do that. So that is the reason why I do it.[00:14:41] Lara: , And certainly your work over the last many years is a lot of how I learned about things I just didn't know about. Right. So there's a lot we don't know because we don't know it Simply until we have an opportunity to learn about it, we don't know it.That is one of those statements I make That sounds really obvious when I say it, but if you don't think, well, I just didn't know that before. but I'm really glad I know it now. Then being able to learn from people who are willing to share their stories is really important.Whether it's because I am learning to understand. People I didn't really understand at all, whether it's learning enough to help me feel like I understand myself better. There's so many parts to that. And without stories, without people who are willing and comfortable, because not everybody is comfortable.Like , I don't think, I'm pretty sure you don't think. Everybody needs to go online and share all their stories, like that's not what we're saying. But for those who feel comfortable sharing their stories, there are people out there who are receiving those stories and suddenly feeling like somebody gets me, somebody is willing to talk about something I didn't understand or that scared me and I didn't even know I needed that.But thank you.[00:16:05] Rowan: Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I havelearned more from people's stories than I have learned from pretty much anything else. And I think that's because somebody's personal anecdote, somebody's personal journey doesn't just educate, but it also opens up those empathy centers in the brain. It gives us a reason to want to learn the thing.So if some random person just posted a bunch of facts about trans people, and I hate to go back to trans people over and over, but we are the topic of a lot of, political debate right now and medical debate and everything else. I mean, we've just been scapegoated over and over, by a number of political parties and organizations, and so because I live it, I think it's important to speak to what I know.I think that if somebody were just to provide these facts about trans people. Why would you even wanna read them? If you think you already understand trans people, you think you already understand that we're, you know, I get called mentally ill a lot. I am in fact mentally ill by the way, but I have C-P-T-S-D and anxiety being trans is not a mental illness.but, you know, I get called mentally ill and that I need, I need to go get help and not the type of help I'm getting right now. And there's all these ideas about us. So what if you already. Think that you know everything. Why would you want to read a bunch of facts that fly in the face, the facts you think you already know, but hearing somebody's story and.And seeing their emotion as they're telling it. If you're watching a video or you know, feeling those words that can tap into the empathy center and empathy gives us a reason to want to do the work, to want to learn. That's why. Stories are so, so powerful. That's why in a lot of indigenous cultures storytelling is such an important learning tool.It's because it gives that emotional base to want to learn the thing.[00:18:16] Lara: Yeah. So there's the empathy part and then there's the connection part. And I think it can be true for the same person. Right? And they can get both. But I think that. The stories that I tell and mine are not as about being transgender because I'm not, you know, that's not the topic I talk about, but I talk about a lot of things like my ADHD, like my endometriosis, right?So being, somebody who has a different brain, being somebody who's had a lot of pain, being somebody who had to have a hysterectomy in her early forties, like these are all things that personally happened to me. And that I feel comfortable sharing. So I have had people tell me, I'm so brave for talking about things like my ADHD or my endometriosis, and what I think is it didn't require any bravery.For whatever reason, those things felt easy to talk about. Those things, talking about them, if anything. Released me from shame, not made me feel shameful. There are other things, and this goes back to like I don't share everything about myself online, that it would require a ton of bravery or something to talk about online.Like I don't feel comfortable. It would not be easy. I don't want to, and therefore I don't. Right. But those ones. Feel like, yeah, I think it's beneficial for people to understand this more. So why don't I talk about it? Why don't I share it? And whether that means somebody else understands a little bit more about their partner or their kid, their parent, and they have more empathy for them, or whether they're like, huh, I wonder if maybe I also insert whatever I was talking about.And it's because until somebody suggests that it's something that might be true. You might never have thought about it. And so if somebody's telling a story you think is interesting, and whether you're just like, I think this is interesting, and then it brings out like, oh, I just have so much more understanding for other people, or, huh, I have a little more understanding for myself.That is why I share stories online. I'm not out there being like, you know, I just need everybody to know everything about me. , that's not a thing. I truly hope that when I share stories, it helps other people feel better in their own skin or in their own life, and that's why I do it.[00:20:48] Rowan: The nice thing about the internet is that it's created thisability to find other people like you much more easily. you know, I live in a big city today. I live in Toronto, and guaranteed I can find a handful of people that I would be able to relate to and talk to about certain things, and they would be interested in those things too.But in smaller places, small towns and, , for very, very particular things. I don't know, rare genetic disorders, that sort of thing. It has been such a, godsend, if you will, for a lot of people to be able to put something out there and have someone else go, Hey, yeah, me too. I also feel this way.I also have this, I also struggle with this. I also wanna learn more about this, and we create these little communities as a result. I think that is such a gift to be able to have that. I don't pretend that anything that I. Share online is a hundred percent original in that I'm certainly not the only trans person.I'm certainly not the only trans man. I'm certainly not the only trans man in my late forties. , I mean, I think there are a lot of people doing what I do, but there are also a lot of people. So, you know, we all have our little pockets where we reach other humans. And yes, like you said, it's all about connection.Everything. Even this podcast is about connection.[00:22:18] Lara: Yeah.[00:22:19] Rowan: Like , why are we doing this? We're not living high on the hog from this - is that even a saying, is high on the hog a saying?[00:22:25] Lara: I think it is, but one of the things about me is I use idioms wrong all the time. So like, we're not gonna...[00:22:33] Rowan: I think high on the hog means that you're making a lot of money off of something, which we most, certainly are not. No, this is a labor of love, like 100% a labor of love. but I think what keeps us going on this podcast is the exact same thing that keeps me going online is getting those people saying, thank you so much.That episode meant a lot to me. what you said here stuck with me all day and I really thought about it. Or, you know, , whatever it might be. I think we're such a lonely society. They keep talking about how we're so lonely right now, and I can see that. I can see that a lot of people feel very lonely and disconnected.[00:23:18] Lara: And shameful.[00:23:19] Rowan: So, connection and the ability to share in experiences together brings us closer.[00:23:28] Lara: Yeah, becausepeople do sit alone at home feeling like they're the only ones struggling, suffering, feeling bad about themselves. Everybody else has it all together, and I think that really a lot of this is to be seen, to be understood, to learn from other people, and to not think we're the only ones who are struggling.I think that there's so many. Different positives. I know that for myself, I have learned from people that without the online connection and the people who were willing to share before me, I wouldn't know as much as I know in order for me to be able to start sharing it with other people. a quick example is that when I first got my endometriosis diagnosis, which is when, the tissue that you find inside of the uterus is found outside of the uterus, can cause a lot of pain and a lot of people don't realize it can be.As far as up in your brain and down your legs, like it is quite significant, and a lot of people don't really a lot about it. When I first got my diagnosis, one of the first things I did is I went on my personal Facebook and I said, anybody who knows about endometriosis, can you tell me stuff?And I got a lot of answers. So first of all. I found out just how many people I knew had endometriosis , and I didn't know that until that moment. Secondly, I found resources I would not have found, I don't think, if I hadn't asked, if I hadn't found those resources, I don't think I would've made the medical decisions I did, which I believe are what meant that I got the best care.So. It was really important that I asked online. It was really important that people were willing to share with me. It was really important that I found the resources, I found from the people who were willing to share, and that I believe is what helped me get better as fast as I did.[00:25:24] Rowan: Wow, that's amazing.you hear so many stories like that too. So many stories of people. Putting something out there that maybe isn't a hundred percent comfortable for them either. And hearing from other people and going, oh yeah, that happened to me and here's what I did. Or, I'm going through that too. If you need to talk to somebody and suddenly you have a whole community behind you.So there are so many reasons why people share bits of their lives online. I think there's another side to it. I do think there can be oversharing.[00:25:54] Lara: Yeah.[00:25:55] Rowan: and I think that that line is different for everyone, but generally when we overshare, we kind of feel like we've overshared. I think that handful of times where I have crossed a line where it hasn't just let me feel a little vulnerable because I shared something that maybe was a bit tough for me, but maybe was.Something I posted out of frustration that I wouldn't normally say or whatever it might be. I have very quickly been able to go back to that and go, Ooh, should I have said that? Maybe I should delete that, or maybe I should edit that, or whatever it might be. So I do think that can happen. An example for me, I've seen.I don't know if they're staged or not, but like on TikTok, I've seen people recording arguments with their partners just because it, at least to me, so that they can get. Commenters on their side to be like, oh, she shouldn't have done that, or he shouldn't be saying that, and I'm not talking about they're recording abusive things.I'm talking about they're confronting their partner on something and filming it for the whole world. And I don't know if that is at all the same thing that we're talking about in terms of demonstrating living with a condition or asking people for help or something, that seems like a different thing entirely.[00:27:19] Lara: Definitely. And I think that comes back to the whole, we wanna be respectful of other people. Like a lot of the stuff that I think can be too much is when you are disclosing orWhen you are bringing in other people telling their stories or trying to be like, I wanna say that they're wrong, or I wanna mock them, or wow, look at the, car accident, gawking at it. That's the kind of stuff I don't think we need to share online.But everything else, if it's a personal story and they wanna share it. It's okay if you are not interested. So that comes back to like, nobody cares because there are all kinds of people who like to tell you, nobody cares. just because you don't care doesn't mean somebody else doesn't care. And if you don't care, pass on by, .[00:28:07] Rowan: I've never understood the point of that. Like so again yesterday talking about getting top surgery. I had a handful of people. Of course, this always happens. Comment on my going viral post about it on threads going, nobody cares . Who are you anyway? And why should I care? I was like, you cared enough to stop what you were doing.Go into the comment section and leave a comment, which actually tells me you do care. but I actually don't care if you don't care, because that just means that this post out of billions probably of posts that are out there in the world isn't for you. It's for a select group of people where, where they find that they get something out of it.So I don't actually mind if somebody doesn't care. I really do question the motives behind writing, stuff like that, because that happens all the time. Now, some of that's going to be bots, like definitely there are engagement bots, rage farming bots. Those things we know exist and I have encountered my fair share.But some of them really seem like genuine people. Who will just stop what they're doing to question why you're even sharing that in the first place because they personally don't care. But that also goes back to this idea that I've brought up on the podcast before where what people think of what you are sharing.Has a lot more to do with them than it does you, unless you're posting something that's extremely harmful and offensive and people are calling you on it most of the time. Everybody's comment, good, bad, happy, angry, whatever is coming from their own biases, their own life experiences, how they are interpreting what you are putting out into the world.They're putting their own lens on it. So when I post a selfie, for example, inevitably somebody will say, Ugh, you're such a narcissist, or something along those lines, right? And it's like. Do you really think that everybody who posts a picture of themselves is a narcissist? Like what does that say about you?Because a lot of times I see people posting pictures of themselves and I think, I love that you felt really good in this picture and you wanted to share it with the world. I think that's amazing and I wish everybody had that kind of confidence. I think that kind of confidence can build up your life in such a big way.So that's where I'm coming from. Right. So I think that really needs to be stated. So if you do put something personal out there in the world because you're trying to help other people, you want to connect with other people, you're trying to get help for it, whatever it is, and you get comments like that, please, please, please remember that has everything to do with the person commenting and nothing to do with you.[00:31:06] Lara: And if you have thought. Why are they sharing that? You may not have gone out of your way to tell the person you didn't care, but if you ever wondered why are they sharing that again, know that that probably just isn't for you, or it's making you a little uncomfortable and you can be curious about why.[00:31:26] Rowan: Being curious about being uncomfortable is so hard for a lot of us. It's something that I've been diving into quite a bit with my own anxiety issues where I'm like, I'm really anxious right now. You know what? I'm gonna actually sit with that anxiety for a little bit. I'm not gonna try and push it away.I tell myself I'm being silly. No, no, no. I'm gonna bring it. I'm gonna invite it in. And I try to do the same thing when I am uncomfortable. When somebody posts something, shares something that just, ooh in the gut, I just don't feel good about it. It just makes me kind of eww, a lot of times it is. Well, every time, pretty much, it has everything to do with me because maybe I wouldn't share something like that.Maybe I would be worried that I would get judged if I said that, or whatever it might be. Or maybe that experience is so outside of my own experience that I can't imagine it happening, and I'm upset about something in it. So I really like to sit with that. I like that. Be curious.Curiosity can do so much.[00:32:31] Lara: Yeah.The other thing I think that can come up for people is if you feel some kind of shame, I would never share that it makes you uncomfortable that somebody else felt comfortable with it, that somebody's talked about it without it being shameful. And so that's another thing to just be curious about.[00:32:50] Rowan: Yeah. And my goodness, if you are able to be curious about it and possibly work on releasing some of that shame, even if you don't share it yourself, but you're able to recognize that you have shame inside, and let some of that go. Whew. Game changer. Game changer.[00:33:08] Lara: Yeah. So as much as a lot of what I share is about helping other people feel seen, I also wanna say I have gotten so much out of it because people tell me that they feel seen, and that just means that I'm meeting more people who relate to me, who that makes me feel even more like I've found people who I belong with.Right? So. I certainly am not saying that I do this for no personal gain of my own, like, it feels good to help and to connect and to find people, but I also don't just do it because I like talking about myself all the time.[00:33:44] Rowan: Exactly, exactly. Oh, this has been a really good conversation. I like to explore.How we've changed as people over the years, and also how our use of the internet and social media has changed because things are evolving so quickly. I remember a time when you couldn't even watch a video online, and now a lot of the internet is just going straight to video. We're talking a lot about how social media posts and the art of writing a post.Is being moved largely to videos now. I don't know how I feel about that as a writer because I do love to write,[00:34:23] Lara: But we're alsopodcasting right now, which is another version of that.[00:34:27] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. It's a good point.It's all communication really. But I want people to.Be curious using your words here, Lara. I want people to be curious about sharing online and why they do it or don't do it, and how they feel around other people doing it or not doing it.[00:34:49] Lara: There is a lot to be curious about and that is why we keep doing this podcast because we are curious about so many things, and I love that these topics keep coming to us from either listeners who mention new things, conversations we have with each other or with guests.Like there's just so much to be curious about and to unpack and to. Ask ourselves if change can happen to make us all feel just a little bit better in our own skin, which I think is Rowan, you and I, what we most want people to do is to feel okay in their own skin.[00:35:25] Rowan: It's a gamechanger. Thank you so much for joining us today.Please visit our sub stack, like and subscribe to our podcast and, let us know what you think of our topics. Please let us know if you have new topics you'd like us to cover. We do our best to get to every single one.[00:35:47]Lara: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Much of society thinks of retirement as the end of something important. And maybe that’s true. But what if it’s just the beginning of something… better? In this episode, Lara and Rowan chat with their longtime friend Dani Donders, who retired at age 55 (yes, we’re also envious) after a long career in the Canadian federal government and is now pursuing new creative ventures. Not only is she writing books and reading tarot cards, but she also teaches other women how to explore and embrace their creative side later in life through workshops.No matter where you are in life, this chat will give you food for thought. Age is just a number, and it shouldn’t stop us from living.LinksDani’s website - https://curiouscrone.ca/Curious Crone on YoutubeCurious Crone on InstagramA blog post by Dani inspired by one of our podcast episodesHow to find Dani’s book on rock wrappingWant more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara also shares a lot of her art on Instagram.Transcript(transcripts are not carefully edited and probably have some errors)[00:00:00] Dani: I call it the permission to try. People need permission to try new things, which is kind of crazy. Like how do we get to the point where you need permission? Is it okay if I mix the red paint and the blue paint?Well, yeah. It's your art. Welcome back to unboxing It. I'm Lara.[00:00:39] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.[00:00:41] Lara: And we are thrilled because we have a guest with us today and it's somebody that Rowan and I have both known for a long time and like a coming on decades, from the online space and who we think is the perfect person to bring a topic backup. So we've talked about aging once.We're gonna talk about it again. We're gonna talk a little bit about what it means in terms of career. What you do next, and I think it's gonna be a little bit of trying to disrupt the whole getting older means life is ending conversation. So welcome to the show, Dani Donders.[00:01:22] Dani: Oh my goodness. It is not an understatement for me to say this is a huge honor to be here with you guys.So thank you.[00:01:29] Lara: We are so thrilled to have you. I'm going to read an introduction of who Dani is for all of you, and then we're gonna jump into this conversation. So Dani Donders believes there is magic in storytelling and curiosity and creative expression, and in connecting with other humans now retired from a long career in government, Dani has dedicated her crone years to rekindling the spark of creative play in herself and in others.She hosts kitchen table workshops where friends can come together in an afternoon or evening of creative exploration. She does tarot card readings for events and parties. She continues to explore photography and creative print processes. She wrote a book on the creative art of rock wrapping.Dani also loves to share stories of her ongoing creative adventures and words, photos and videos across her small but mighty online empire, at curiouscrone.ca.Welcome, Dani.[00:02:25] Dani: You went with the long version. Thank you, Lara. It is genuinely a pleasure to be here.[00:02:30] Lara: Dani does so many things. But like in a way that I do them, so I'm excited.Right. I love meeting other people who naturally and instinctively do lots of things just because it's easy and it's fun and I find some people look at me like, what are you doing? But I know Dani doesn't.[00:02:47] Dani: All the things, that's what we're doing because everything is so interesting. And how can you just do one interesting thing when all the interesting things are out there?So yeah.[00:02:57] Lara: I hear you.[00:02:58] Rowan: This really flies in the face of the idea that I think a lot of media still perpetuates, and a lot of people still believe, oddly enough, in this economy that. Retirement means kind of just slowly fading out of life, right? Like you're, supposed to, I think in this idea that we have of, I'm gonna use the American dream, but I think it translates to a lot of different cultures that, you know, you go to school, you choose what you wanna do in school, which leads you to a job.You work a job, and then you retire from that job at a certain age, and then you. I don't know, maybe you go on a cruise or,you go golfing or , , I don't know, you basket weave or something. But that's pretty much it. And then perhaps, you live with your children or you go into, a retirement home of some kind, and then you fade away.So like that is not how you plan the, I don't even know what this era of your, I mean, did you call it the crone years? 'cause I kind of love that.[00:04:04] Dani: Yeah. And you know, the whole reason, like I created the Curious Crone Empire, because I wanted to pull together all the different things that I was passionate about.And I called it Curious Crone in particular because like, it's not. Necessarily fun aging and seeing in the media and, in the public sphere what aging, like you said, all the stereotypes around it. I remember when I turned 50 and my middle kid who's a young adult, was so amused by the fact that all of his.Friends, parents were like, oh no, I'm, you know, I'm turning 49 for the sixth time and here's my mom who says I'm 50 and I love being 50. And did I tell you I'm 50 and 50 is awesome and I can't wait to be 51? 'cause I love being 50 so much. So that's, to me, what embracing the crone years is about is like, okay, there's no denying it.I can't see the screen clearly. I forgot to put my hearing aids in and my feet hurt. Okay. But also my heart is so full and I'm so full of excitement every day because of all the cool things that I can do now. So that's what embracing the crone years is about to me, is that, yeah, there's a lot of stereotypes about aging right now.and I'm kind of aiming to break all of them.[00:05:20] Lara: Life's not done. Just because you're getting older and just because maybe you're done, the career you started when you were in your twenties, you get to keep evolving. You get to keep trying things I. Often say, I would love to be retired, but like not in a, now I don't do anything way in a, now what can I do next?Kind of way.[00:05:42] Dani: Yes, exactly that. Exactly that. Just because, you know, the thing is behind you, whether it worked or whether it didn't work or whatever. That doesn't mean that all this excitement is not ahead of you. And so I guess that's a sort of a glass half full attitude. But looking forward, all I see is the potential for more adventures.[00:06:01] Rowan: So the idea of retirement is leaving a specific type of career behind for you, then perhaps rather than, I am not going to do anything that pays me money ever again.[00:06:15] Dani: So you know when you were like nine and it was five minutes to four on a Friday afternoon, and you were sitting in your school chair and watching the clock tick and tick and tick.I just hit that four o'clock mark and exploded out of my chair. I've been sitting patiently in my chair for so long. The school day was 35 years long, but nowit's the weekend. Let's roll baby.[00:06:40] Rowan: That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. And I mean, retirement looks different for different people. Right. one of the things when we wanted to do this episode that I brought up was, I think.It would be wrong of us. Not to mention that retirement is looking different for younger people these days. A lot of people are not able, like they're not sure how they're going to retire. And that retirement might mean I don't work full-time anymore. Now I work part-time or, you know, I have to move in with my children or whatever it might be that comes down the road.so. I think this isn't so much about retirement as it is perhaps about entering new life stages as we get older. However, that looks for some of us it's retirement. For some of us, it's just switching gears in a different way. But how would you describe the mindset that you have every morning now when you wake up and you think about what you're going to do for the day?[00:07:40] Dani: So, It's been almost exactly six months since I retired, and the first month, every day was abject terror, and I was looking through the, you know, how old am I? I was just about to say, I was looking through the want ads. Okay. I didn't actually have a newspaper. Slide section. That's just the language we have left over.Right? But now, I mean, even before I retired, I went , to my director. I worked for the government and I said I changed my mind. I've made a horrible mistake because I was worried about not. having enough money and, it just so happened that I retired as a certain president, took, office and the world economy, did a big wobble and societal norms, did a big wobble and everything.And my boss at the time said, yeah, no. due to government cutbacks, your position doesn't exist after your announced retirement date. So. You're on your way out, sweetheart, whether you want to be or not, because I had had that vision that I would go back and I would work as a consultant and all sorts of other things.So like I said, the first two months was pure panic, and then a bunch of other bumps happened. and so I had little small crisis I had to deal with. It's only been over the course of the summer that it's really been like waking up on vacation every day, but. Summer, it feels like summer vacation.The next couple of weeks is gonna be the really interesting time because , my husband's a teacher, so he goes back to school and my kids are in school, so the next month or two is gonna be the really interesting time when everybody else is not on vacation anymore, but I'm still on vacation.[00:09:07] Lara: think our view of retirement is being done right? , it's thinking I had a job. Now I theoretically saved up all the money that I need for the rest of my life, and now I am done my working years. But that's also not where you are. You right from the start had every intention of still doing different things that made money, right?Like doing your tarot parties , and exploring things that you wanted to do in different ways.[00:09:34] Dani: Well, that's it., I've said all along , I was 55 when I retired, so I knew that I would have capacity to work. and it's deeply ingrained in us that if we have the capacity to work, then we should work.So even though I had my pension coming in, it was less than my salary. So my goal for myself was to work enough that I was gonna make up that difference between my pension and my salary. So that's what I started out doing. But the fun thing is that I'm working. For the thrill of things that make me happy.So it is doing tarot parties and it's leading workshops and I wrote a book and it worked. And so, yeah, it's a matter of instead of, you know, working for the man, finding ways to make money that don't feel like work.[00:10:20] Rowan: That's the dream. That is the dream. , I wish that we could do that from day one.I wish we could all do that from day one, right? Where it's like, whatever you wanna do, go and do it. that idea of like, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. Which by the way, I will say as someone who loves what he does, isn't actually true. But there are still some really hard days.But it is truly a gift. If you can love what you do, tell us about your book because we are all authors here. , all of us have written, nonfiction books, actually. They're[00:10:52] Dani: Very different books though.[00:10:53] Rowan: Yeah, right. Yours is very different from mine, which is very different from Lara's.So like, tell us about yours.[00:10:58] Dani: Yeah. So I wrote a book about how to wrap rocks and 95% of your listeners. What,[00:11:06] Rowan: right? Yeah. I, yes.[00:11:07] Dani: No. So, it is an art form that I stumbled across about a year, year and a half ago, and it's just about taking rocks that you find in nature and adding things like wrap leather cords , and charms.And, when I started doing it, I couldn't find any instructions, so. Some, I wrote a blog post and then, because I'm an old school blogger, I was looking at my metrics one day and I'm like, oh really? People are really interested in this blog post that I wrote. No, really, people are really interested. Like that's the only thing that I wrote about that people are interested in.So, I started making some more content about it and the content was really popular and I'm like, okay, well I am gonna write the book that I couldn't find when I first started doing this. And it's been super well received. So it's a downloadable PDF, because I wanted to make it accessible and affordable and people keep whining that it's not a book.So I've been trying to figure out ways to make an actual book out of it,[00:12:01] Lara: which is great. But also some people might want a paper book and they just don't get it 'cause that's not how life works. And they don't get to make you do things unless you want to. I will say though, that I think what's great about the rock wrapping is so many people.Love rocks. I say this, having been to the Maritimes last year with a couple of teenagers who I think brought home 30 pounds of rocks in my van, and it's a good thing we drove because like at every beach they're like, look at all the rocks We found their pockets were[00:12:32] Dani: full. And then what do you do with them now?With me, you can , turn them into art that sits on the mantle beast and clutters that up instead of in a drawer somewhere. Yeah.[00:12:42] Rowan: Perfect. I think that's a great idea. Like first of all, pro beautiful clutter. Very much bit of a maximalist over here, but I do think that, this is where I think age and wisdom come in, because if I were to ask you, Dani, would you have taken on the job, the work.The time and the confidence needed to write a book in your twenties, would you have done it?[00:13:11] Dani: Gosh, no. And the funny thing is, that's what I wanted to do. You know, I wanted to be journalist and a writer when I was a little kid, but doing something like that to think that I would have the expertise to write a how to book, a craft book to teach people things, that wasn't on my radar five years ago.So, yeah. Evolution is a cool thing.[00:13:30] Lara: you get to do so many fun things and I think that that's the beauty of thinking. I don't have to do things the way I did before I get to explore the new things. I get to try things that maybe when I was in my twenties, I would've felt weird or self-conscious about.not that you need to feel weird or self-conscious about it, but like is tarot having gone into something like that was like a whole different, like pivot into something different and trying it just 'cause it interested you. Right.[00:13:58] Dani: Yeah, and I mean that one was a tough one because there are some serious.Attitudes and ideas out there already. People think the rock wrapping thing is just always Dani's cute, weird things. Okay, just let her be. but the tarot thing, people have some pretty strong feelings about that. And it's funny, as a professional tarot reader, now I have had people who didn't want to hire me.Because I was not woo spiritual enough for them, I, I, don't channel spirits. I don't claim to be a medium. I don't think that I am channeling the voices of the past. I'm a storyteller. And so tarot to me is about storytelling. So I was not woowoo enough for them. But then I had other people who wouldn't hire me because I was too woowoo.Because the people in their family objected to the idea of having a tarot reader at their event. So. For me, either one of those criticisms five or 10 years ago, I would've taken deeply personally because I wasn't enough of this. I wasn't enough of that. But now I just find it amusing that I have become this person who has the confidence to really, really love tarot. I really love the storytelling and the connection with other people, but I was so self-conscious when I started talking about it initially because of all these perceptions that are out there. So I think it's a big thing to evolve into somebody who is able to say, okay, yes, there are these conceptions, maybe misconceptions, certainly opinions, and.I can still be brave and like the things I like out loud because they make me happy.[00:15:31] Rowan: Isn't it wonderful when we get to the age where we realize we don't have to be everything for everybody and that that's impossible and to just not even try, like I, I thought that was the most freeing thing for me because as somebody who has a larger online presence.I get a lot of demands from people to be like this or be like that, and that used to hurt so much. don't even know the amount of hours that I lost sleep, how much time I spent in therapy, just. Running these thoughts through my head, like, how can I meet this expectation and how can I meet this expectation and how do I not compromise myself, but also be enough for everybody?And then one day it just hit me. I just got old enough and I think I did enough work on myself where I was just like, huh. I don't have to. I really don't because there are billions of people on this planet. So if I'm not what you're looking for, that's okay. Somebody else will be. So it's okay for me to like what I like and do what I do as long as I'm not harming people, right.If I'm not deliberately being terrible, but like I'm allowed to be myself and. You know, my truth. And so are you, so if tarot is something that speaks to you, fantastic. Little known fact. I do my own tarot readings every few days. Just, you know, do I know if they work? No. Do I have any strong spiritual belief about them?No. Do I think they're really cool and they can tell a story just like you? Yeah, absolutely. So I like to do it. It's like another little thing to think on in my day. So people look at these things all differently[00:17:04] Lara: and you were curious and you were brave, and you went out and talked about it. And while there are some people who may not think you're woowoo enough, or some people who think you're too woowoo, I think there's also some people who think that your level of tarot is just right.[00:17:21] Rowan: You are woo woo enough.[00:17:23] Dani: I'm woo woo. And that's okay. My favorite thing is when I'm doing, tarot for, a public event and there's a lot of people who have had exposure to tarot. I happened to be just last weekend. and , they get needled into doing their first.Sitting for their first, tarot reading, because their friends have been giving them a hard time about it, twisting their arm. And I was kind of half protesting, you know, we don't bully people into getting tarot readings. That's, not okay. But to have somebody sit down who is initially skeptical and have them understand where I'm coming from, I'm not predicting a future.I just, I wanna tell you a little story. And there insights there that they were quite surprised by. Specificity that I was able to talk about that kind of made them sit back in their chair. I love those moments because that means that somebody had a preconceived notion and I forced their blinders open just a little bit.And I love that.[00:18:14] Rowan: sometimes, that's how growth happens in general, right? It speaks to stepping out of your comfort zone. And to me that's literally stepping outta my comfort zone is the only way that I grow as a human being.[00:18:26] Dani: I think that's another thing I really wanted to do with the curiosity workshops that I, foster, is that we are so tentative to.Try things when we're not gonna be good at them, or to try them without guardrails and you know, step by step instructions and everything. And I think that people should just be braver about even doing small things, like picking up a piece of fabric and putting some stitches on it. Like you don't have to be really good, you just have to want to do a thing to try something new.And if at the end of whatever crafting evening you. Are not gonna be like me and decide it's a lifelong thing that you need to add to your ongoing repertoire, which happens every time I try a new craft. Maybe you try it and you just, at the end of the day, you made a thing and the pretty thing sits on your mantle and that's it.You never do it again. But now you know, at least you tried.[00:19:16] Lara: I keep, saying to people that. I'm always trying to figure out whether a new craft of some kind is gonna be a one night stand or a new love affair for life. and a lot of them are just one night stands, like, I just want to try it once and off we go.And I think you and I have a lot in common when it comes to being there's a thing, I'm just gonna try it and see how it goes. And there's a lot of people. That that would make really uncomfortable and therefore having somebody like you be able to walk them through it, like, I wanna try it, but I don't know what to do and can somebody tell me what to do.So creating these curiosity workshops helps people try the things they might've been nervous to try otherwise.[00:19:55] Dani: I call it the permission to try. People need permission to try new things, which is kind of crazy. Like how do we get to the point where you need permission? Is it okay if I mix the red paint and the blue paint?Well, yeah. It's your art. I'm speaking about paint and I don't do anything with it to do with paint, so I'm, I'm outta my lane, but yeah, exactly that. Permission to try. Why do we need that?[00:20:18] Lara: Because we've been taught perfection is required and failure is terrible. therefore, if you try something and think, well that wasn't good, then clearly you are a terrible artist.You suck. Why did you ever try this?[00:20:32] Dani: Yep. That whole fear of failure thing. Oh yeah. But you and I, Lara too, have that ability. to look at something and say, oh yeah, I could do that. I could do that. There's no reason why I can't do that. And then we just sit down and do it.[00:20:45] Lara: Yeah.It's like the audacity. You have to think you can do something that you shouldn't be able to do. But the bonus is that because I'm like, sure, I could do that. It means I get to try things and I also think I'm much more comfortable at failure than a lot of people because I've tried things thinking it would go well and it didn't.Like I'm used to trying things that don't work out.[00:21:08] Rowan: This is where, I do say I am a painter and that's my hobby. It's one of my hobbies, when I have time for hobbies, which I don't have a lot of time for them these days, but. I was in the store looking for artwork for our new home, and everything I looked at was expensive and I was like, I don't know why this is so expensive.I could do that. And my partner kinda laughed. I'm like, no, no, I really think I could do something like that. How do I know that? I don't know, but I'm gonna try. So I went and got the material and I just made art. And now. The thing that is on our walls at home more than anything else happens to be my artwork because I can make it go with any room in the house.Am I the best artist in the world? No, but I said I'm not a terrible artist either, and I really enjoy it.[00:21:57] Lara: Your pieces are beautiful.[00:21:59] Rowan: Oh. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I think that people get really stuck and I think we get more and more stuck. Some of us, not all of us, because I know we're gonna get some listeners who are like, oh no, I feel so free at my age.And , that is wonderful. But I think for some people there's this idea that, expansion of self. Ends at a certain age and that age , is different for everybody. But there's this idea idea of like you're old and set in your ways, oh, this person's not gonna change because they're old.And as it turns out. Science disproved that, that we have this beautiful ability in our brain called neuroplasticity. And neuroplasticity allows us to form new pathways at any age, and that includes creative pathways. Anything we want to do, we can try to do. Virtually any age. That's everything from learning to paint when you're older to you know, learning new ways to deal with anxiety.I mean, all of those different things can happen. We just have to work at it. So when you host these workshops, Dani, do you find that people come in feeling a bit timid or are they really excited?[00:23:13] Dani: this is the other reason why I like these workshops. there are two different possible scenarios.You're sitting around a table and everybody has a glass of wine and you're sitting and you're looking at each other, and there is conversation there is talking, but. You give those same people something to do with their hands, and there's an alchemy that happens. You can better connect with the people around you because your hands are busy because you're both making the same mistake because she chose the blue one and you chose the red one and it's why I think we used to have in the olden days things like sewing bees and quilters bees and things like that, because.When your hands are busy, there's something in your brain that just loosens up a little bit. And so I think as somebody who often crafts on my own, I truly believe exactly what you're talking about, those neural pathways and how creativity is a muscle to be exercised. But there's an extra special sauce when you're sitting around a table with some of your besties.And the conversations that I'm privy to have been really interesting because people just drop their guards and they're really enjoying what they're doing with their hands because their soul is a little bit more closer to the surface. And, you know, here's the woo woo again. but I, think that's true.And so. Seeing people lose that tentativeness of, oh, is it okay if I put the string here? Is it okay if I try it backwards? Of course, it's okay. So I find that my sort of style of facilitation isn't didactic. It isn't. You will take this and you will make this, and you cannot use glue. You cannot tie a knot.Here, it's more like. So this is how I would do it. This is how I found its easiest, but I'd love to see you riff on it. I'd love to see you immediately be better than me. I'd love to see you improve upon this design, because I think that that's all people need is you give them a pile of stuff and you say, here's some ideas.Here's some guidelines. Go. And people just, like I said, their soul are closer to the surface. , Their guard drops and it's magic.[00:25:10] Lara: I think it's really important to have people, who sort of lead by example in being able to try and do new things, right?So you talk about all these new things that you've done and they're not just creative. You've got, you're kayaking, which you started,Yeah. Kick sled, there's all these things that you've tried, but there's a lot of people who get so stuck in the every day and what they do and what they're supposed to do and what they have going on and managing everything that they don't think, okay, I'm gonna go out and look for something new.And so I imagine a lot of people might say to you, oh, I wish I could do something like that.[00:25:48] Dani: Yeah, people do say that to me about, I wish I had your energy, or I wish I had your creativity. And it's pure curiosity. That's all it is. All of these things all come back from curiosity. I wonder what will happen if I wonder what's around that corner.I wonder if they'd like kayaking. I wonder how I can go out into the forest and not walk because my knees hurt all the time. Oh, this kick sled thing that my friend Annie had, that looks pretty zoomy. yeah, so it's curiosity without inhibitions. Maybe that's it.[00:26:19] Lara: And telling people there's no reason they can't also try new things.Right? And maybe it is kick sledding and maybe it is rock wrapping, but maybe by the end of them considering this, they're now ready to try something else completely different. Gardening, cooking. All the other things youcould do.[00:26:37] Rowan: How are you different today than you wer 15, 20 years ago.[00:26:43] Dani: Confidence, yourself self-confidence. I believe in myself. I did not. I was taught in an early relationship not to believe in myself, and it took me a long time to build that up. So, yeah. Confidence andcuriosity.[00:26:57] Lara: How did you gain confidence?[00:26:59] Dani: Geez,Lara. That's a hard one. You know what? I know the answer to this one, and you guys are gonna laugh.It's a thousand percent. Fake it till you make it. I built an online persona who was confident and funny and I don't know, vivacious, and I grew into her in real life.[00:27:18] Lara: I imagine there's a certain feedback, right? The more you do something, people think you are something. The positive response you get to the things that you do, the more comfortable you feel to keep doing it.I know for me a lot of the stories that I've told, the things that I talk about. If I hadn't gotten the response, which was, thank you for telling me this. It's helping me do X, Y, Z, I wouldn't have then continued talking about it all the time. But you try things, you say things, you see how it impacts the world.That's for me is how I started gaining more confidence to keep doing that and to keep trying things.[00:27:54] Rowan: Yeah, it's very much, again, we go back to those neural pathways. and for me it, it's a lot like the exposure therapy that I'm doing right now for the type of anxiety that I have, and it's really the only way to deal with the type of anxiety that I have in an effective way.I mean there, I guess there are other ways, but this is the most effective and it is about. Faking it till you make it. Like it's same kind of thing where you expose yourself to something that is going to trigger that anxiety that you know is going to set it off, and then you sit with that anxiety until it decreases and you do that enough times that you train your brain.That the more that when you are faced with. This trigger. Again, it doesn't affect you the same way anymore or it affects you a lot less. I think confidence that is a perfect way in some ways , to build that confidence is just figuring out what you would look like if you were more confident and then getting to know that person and behaving in that way until eventually your brain's like.Yeah, as it turns out, I am pretty confident.[00:29:00] Dani: It's funny, I, came back from a really successful tarot event a couple days ago, and it was just one of those, everything was fire, that day. Not the dog in the room on fire, the, the good fire. and I thought to myself, I would like to go back to 14-year-old me and say, listen, honey.When you get to be an old lady, you are gonna be a person whose biggest asset is charisma and the way you interact with people, and the people will tell you that, you make them feel good about themselves and you'll just have a natural ability to work with people and to realize that, I mean, like you, Rowan, I was badly bullied in school and, it took me a long time to get past that and the idea that the thing.Even growing up, people have always been a mystery to me. I'm probably on some sort of neurodivergent scale because relationships have, you know, friendships have always been complicated and the idea that I've evolved into a person through that fake it till you make it. Who is able to take.Charisma and channel it, and not just make money from it, but to be self validated by it and through the storytelling, make other people feel good. That's where I, I get the big feedback is when other people are happy through like a tarot story or whatever. yeah, so it's, really amazing when you can do like almost a 360 a lot like you have too, Rowan, that, you know, you've come a long way in your journey from.Being powerless to being powerful, to being somebody who can beam that power onto other people and lift them up with it too. So there's that word power again, but it's a powerful journey[00:30:32] Rowan: it is, it is a powerful journey. I think , we were talking before we started recording about how you've gone in this very new and exciting direction.Not that you're not the same person 'cause you said you very much are the same person, but you're trying, many new things right now. And I'm in a phase of my life where I have shifted into. Opening a cafe and wine bar and what that looks like and the ways that I can use my own creativity and my own, charisma, if you will, though the way I connect with people.I love connecting with people, so it's a perfect fit for me. But I also said. I really got close to opening a coffee shop in my twenties. I was very young, like early twenties, and it just financially was not a good time. I had a great business plan. I had some private funding, but the bank would not lend money because it was just like, we're just not investing in restaurant style places right now.Sorry. And I was very disheartened at the time and saw it as a failure, and now coming back to it at almost 50 in opening a shop. I'm so glad that didn't happen back then. But I was able to take a lot of the ideas from back then and bring them into now with much more competence, many more connections, more means.Sort of everything altogether. And a fantastic business slash romantic partner who is coming on this journey with me. And all of the amazing skills that she brings to this. So I think that like, it's okay to wait until later. To do things. I know there's this idea of people like you only have today.You only have today, and that is true. I mean, I don't know how long I'm gonna live. Do I have 30 more years? Do I have 30 more days? 30 more minutes? I have no idea, but I do know that. It feels right to do some things now that I wasn't prepared for before, and that's okay. It's all right to go into a new phase.I don't have to do the same thing that I have always done just because it's what I know and in fact, it's very liberating to be able to do something that is newer and bolder at this stage.[00:32:41] Dani: I think that, that. Also talks to something we spoke about before, a little bit about how I'm 56 now, and not that long ago, 56 would've been, oh, well, nice knowing your granny.Go sit on your rocking chair. And, , maybe that would've been what some people wanted. You know, sit on the rocking chair. And there are worse ways to go than just sitting on the rocking chair and knitting and crocheting until you get eaten by the world's most giant blanket. but. To have that the idea of no day, but today, but also why not today?You know, it's like they talk about when you think about going back to school, we talked about this too. I am where I am today because I flunked outta university in first year, and then I continued my job in retail and then by happenstance, at the age of 20, I got a job with the government that was supposed to be temporary.35 years, so maybe exceeded the definition of temporary a little bit. but then I went back to school and I started university when I was 22 or 23. I went nights for five or six years, and I remember being 22 and going back to school with a bunch of 18 year olds and thinking, oh my God, I'm so old with sweet, sweet supper child.So old at 22, and I graduated at 30 and I thought, oh, you know, it's gonna take me forever and. At the time, it certainly seemed like it did, but if I hadn't gone back to school, I still would've been 30 at the end of six years. I just would've been 30 without a degree. And so, I really think that for anybody who is our age, younger, older, whatever, if they're thinking about that, be brave enough to imagine the possibility of, what if I went back to school?What if I. Tried something new for the first time. What if I did a 180 and imagined a different set of realities? For me,the capacity is there.[00:34:31] Lara: I think it's important to remember it's not too late to do anything at any age, and I think maybe traditionally we were. Kind of taught whether it was overtly or just like the underlying message was there, that by a certain age you're past your expiration date, right?Like, oh, it's too late now. Like you said, Rowan, you can't teach a old dog new tricks is a saying, but I think. It doesn't matter. I am not done changing. I'm not done trying new things. I'm not done wondering what's next, and I don't think I ever will be done. But there's a lot of people who haven't lived life quite as.All over the places I have who might have a harder time thinking that they can veer off a path, right? How can I do something different when I've been doing this for 30 years? That would make no sense. And you know what? You don't always have to make sense.[00:35:27] Dani: Another thing that we haven't really talked about is capacity.Congruent with, , retiring from the government. My kids are mostly grown up now. They all still happen to be living with me, but in their late teens and early twenties, they don't need me as much as they did before. So I think that's another key time in a lot of humans who are our age, is that it is a time of reinvention because for so long, raising the kids and keeping the family on track and all that stuff, we were up to our eyeballs in it andthere was no capacity for anything else. So I think the reason why I exploded in a million different directions was to. Still that void that was left behind. And for me, it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. But you know, I was all in on raising these kids and every minute was about living life with them and building experiences and memories and all that stuff that I'm so glad we did.But my 17-year-old isn't that excited about building experiences and memories anymore. And the 23-year-old, even less so. So yeah, that's the other kind of magic thing that happens at this point in our life, whether you're retired or not, you do find that there's that capacity to ask yourself what's next.[00:36:36] Rowan: And I think for a lot of parents, especially for parents who really prioritized being around the kids as much as possible, it is a big shift when they suddenly don't really need you as much anymore. you know,[00:36:51] Dani: but they need you in a different way.[00:36:53] Rowan: Right. They need you in a different way. That is definitely true.and I apologize to our childless, listeners 'cause we go back to children a lot on this show. But I also wanna say that there are a lot of things like whether you are a parent or not, relating to that as somebody who was part of a family and then, you know, grew up or somebody who's watching a niece or a nephew or somebody do the same thing, right?We all sort of have children in our lives. But whatever that is, whether it is children or a really busy career or a lot of schooling, or you're going to school as well as working or whatever it might be, and then suddenly there's all this time available that sounds like. A thing that somebody will immediately embrace like, wow, this is great.I suddenly have all this time, but sometimes it is just a void for a while. That's why a lot of parents go through that empty nest syndrome where now they think, well, what's next? What do I do? Who are you? This person sitting across from me who I used to know and then got. So busy having all these children now I hardly know you anymore and who am I?Because I don't even know me anymore. So , I think that there is some truth to that, that whatever it is, that has exited our lives, it does create an opportunity for something that fits our livestoday.[00:38:14] Lara: I feel like we could keep talking and talking and talking, and I'm trying not to open up all new conversations because I think because the topic is so deep and rich.[00:38:28] Dani: And multi-faceted.[00:38:28] Lara: There's just so many ways in which we need to keep talking about what it means to age, what it means to.Go into different phases of our lives and not feel like anything is ending, but we're just continuing to be. And so I am very grateful, Dani, that you were able to join us to talk a little bit about some of the ways that you've done it, and I hope a lot of people are just getting a little bit of ideas and inspirations on how they can continue to explore and not feel tied to any one way of creating their journey.[00:39:04] Rowan: And definitely, you know, one of the things I'm taking away from this conversation is. Approaching life with more curiosity because I think that that has served you very well, Dani, and it's something that I don't do as much as an anxious person, where I tend to, you know, take a big step back sometimes, like a scaredy cat, like literally my cat who is terrified of everything and sort of peek around the corner and goesI don't know, is it safe? , Do I put a paw out now? I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna step back, right? And I think that's not what you do. You're like, let's do the new thing, and you just dive in. I have so much respect for that. And so that is what I am taking away, and I really hope people listening are taking their own lessons away because you have a lot to offer.I am so grateful that you joined us.[00:39:47] Dani: Thereare two questions you can ask. What if and why not? Why not do your first podcast? It's terrifying. But your friends are really awesome, so you should do it.[00:39:58] Lara: And you did a great job.[00:40:00] Rowan: You did a fantastic job.[00:40:01] Dani: We survived. Thank you so much, my friends.[00:40:05] Lara: Thank you for being here.Everybody. , We will put links to all of Dani's places in the show notes, but you can also go visit her at curiouscrone.ca.Thank you again. Thank you.[00:40:16] Rowan: Thanks, Dani. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

“If I was a good person, I would—”“If you cared about me, you would—”“As adults, we should—”“In the workplace, we need to—”Um, says who?Like it or not, enumerable expectations are built into the fabric of society. What we expect of ourselves and others plays a profound role in shaping our relationship to the world and those around us. But who came up with these social rules, anyway? And why do we follow them? Are they fair? Do the expectations we’ve come to believe in improve our lives or do they create unnecessary anxiety, resentment or disappointment? In this week’s episode, we dig into why we have these sets of rules and guidelines, which ones to keep and which ones we might want joyfully yeet into the sun.If we missed some big ones, let us know! We’d love to do a follow-up episode. (Complaining about expectations is one of Rowan’s favourite activities on account of getting old.)Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.TranscriptLara: I think there's the part where. We think about what expectations have been put on us and how we want to deal with it and what we can and can't change in the moment.But the other part is what expectations have you put on other people and how is that impacting their lives? And how is it impacting your life? Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara.[00:00:43] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.[00:00:44] Lara: And today we're gonna talk about a thing that I decided to make a good topic when listening to somebody else's podcast. and you know, I don't even remember what they said in the podcast, but what I really got out of it is that people have a lot of expectations about their life.What it's gonna look like, what people are supposed to do, what would make you a good parent? What would make you a good friend? Like there's a lot of things that people have decided are very much the right thing to do, and now. That is just the expectation, and I think expectations can be good, but a lot of time they can be really a good way to set yourself up for disappointment and frustration, and also to set yourself up to go down paths that you don't need to go down.I would agree as somebody who held myself to what I thought were the expectations of society. Placed upon me to the point where it was like, I know I'm not a girl. But society tells me that I'm a girl, so I guess I have to be a girl. Okay. And now I have to, have to fall in love with and marry a man.And okay, what does that mean? I guess I have to find a man that I can be attracted to. 'cause I wasn't attracted to men.Mm-hmm.[00:02:08] Rowan: And it just kind of went on from there. Right. And so, spent a long time in my life trying to align. What I was doing with what I thought everybody else wanted and and that's an incredibly destructive thing.Unhelpful and doesn't really serve a purpose other than to perhaps make other people more comfortable.[00:02:33] Lara: Yes. I mean, this comes around to the whole. Thing that I believe, which is a lot of what we are taught to expect and to want and how we're supposed to do life is really designed to make some people happy and content right?Like when we follow the rules and do what they want, they have the life and society they want, and we never really spent any time thinking about what we wanted and choosing for ourselves.[00:03:02] Rowan: I think it goes back to childhood where, you know, even really early, like, and I don't wanna get stuck on like gender or sexual orientation.Like there's so many expectations that we place on ourselves and others all, all throughout society. But a really easy one for me is. You know, when I had my son, my first son, and I would bring him around, and even when he was a baby, people were like, there'd be another baby.I would say a little girl around. I was like, oh, do you have a little girlfriend? Do you have a girlfriend? You know, or like, he'd come home from school and, you know, somebody, you know, a neighbor , would see him and, you know, might say something like, oh, any girls that you like, you know, so the expectation was.He is supposed to enter a relationship with a girl. He's supposed to find girls attractive. It's like drilled into him from a really early age. As it turns out, he does find girls attractive, but what if he didn't? And that was the expectation. You know, , and he's being told that that is something that he's supposed to feel that he's supposed to do, right?Like, oh, do you have a little girlfriend? Oh, maybe you'll get married one day. You know? And it's like, so now the expectation is you find a girl and then you get married to her, and it just goes on from there. Like, when are you having children? When, not if. Do you want children or anything along those lines?When are you two planning on having kids? It just grows out. , It's this constant assumption that we all want a specific life.[00:04:38] Lara: Yeah. And that they talk to your baby and they're like, if it's a girl, like she's so pretty. She's so beautiful. And if they're a little boy, they'll be like, oh, he's so strong.Like, just like there's so many things and some of us don't even realize we're doing it. I think a lot of people don't realize like that they haven't thought this through. It's just like what things are supposed to be, and I really think challenging that is important because. Not everybody needs to do the same thing.Not everybody needs to want the same thing. Another example is my daughter who's in high school, who has said to me multiple times, I don't know why. Starting in like grade seven, they're like, what do you wanna do for your whole life? how am I supposed to know what I wanna do for my whole life right now?And I agree wholeheartedly, but I know for a fact that there are a lot of other parents out there being like, well, you should be a lawyer. If you wanna be successful, you should be a doctor, right? There are a lot of people who set really high expectations for their children of what success is, and they'll be really disappointed if their children don't live up to that.And then the children take that on as if it's their own without ever having really considered what they really want.[00:05:55] Rowan: My stepdaughter was applying for a very prestigious. Program at one of the top universities here in Canada. And she went with her mom to go to the interview. 'cause there's a whole interview process to get in.And her mom, my partner was just like, if you want this, I support you and I'm gonna drive you to the interview and we'll also have lunch and I'm gonna cheer you on the whole way. And they met a handful of other families and it did not feel that way. My partner said it was very much, like the parents were putting a lot of pressure on this child to get into this program because it would mean being very successful probably in that particular field going forward.So my stepdaughter did get in, which is really cool. And then she did this really amazing thing. She decided all on her own that she wasn't gonna go to that program. She decided to take another program. At another university that offered more of a university experience. The one that she was going to was going to be a satellite program, so it was not in a big city, it was in a small town.only university students would be the ones in her direct programs. You've got maybe 150, 200 young people in this program and there's not really a lot to do. There are no clubs to join, that sort of thing. So she was like, that sounds miserable. I don't wanna do that. I wanna have the university experience.I'm gonna go to this program instead. Big campus. My friend is going, you know, we'll be roommates. And there was no disappointment in my partner's face when she heard this. She was so proud of her daughter for making a choice that worked for her. And I thought, how difficult would it be if we accepted just on the expectations alone when it comes to parenting, if we accepted that our children are not meant to be mini versions of our hopes and dreams.They're not meant to fulfill our hopes and dreams for them. Their job is to fulfill the hopes and dreams that they want. And our job is to help them get there.[00:08:14] Lara: Mm-hmm.And to help them learn to figure out what that is, because I think a lot of people don't even know how to connect to what they want.Like I really believe that to be true. I want to learn more. In fact, at some point about how to help people figure that out. I am very lucky. I. Quite easily know what I want, do you know what I mean? Like I know most of the time anyway, what I want. It's not something that I have to go searching for.I might need to go searching for whether it's the right choice. I may need to go searching for how to do it, but I have a lot of, ability to just come up with what I want and all of that. A lot of people don't even know how to do that, and so I think teaching them beyond just.Your skills say that you would make an excellent librarian. Right? Which is what like these tests do. I feel like when I was in high school, people would do these tests to be like, what careers would you be good at? And so many of the jobs that people would get where ones you don't know anybody who does that.what is this? Right? You don't need to. Simply answer a questionnaire and suddenly be told what you can be. What I think we all need to do more of is learn how to ask ourselves questions about what we think we're good at and what we like to do and what that could mean. I'm about to go on this whole tangent, hang on a second.and how that can mean. We want a certain thing, but also like who I was in high school and who I am now are unrecognizable to me. Like the differences, what I would have wanted then and what I want now, so different. Which is why I keep pivoting my career all over the place and again, maybe that's not true for everybody, but there's a lot of people like why would you know, at 14 years old.What it is that you are going to want to do as a career, as an adult you're not fully formed yet, Why would you know? And then that sets people up for going into post-secondary spending like 12 years getting the degree to get to the place that they wanted to get to because that's what they decided when they were 14.And then you feel like you can't not do that because you just spent 12 years doing it.[00:10:30] Rowan: Yeah, exactly.Let's talkabout why we subscribe to these expectations in the first place, because I think some people are able to go, yeah, okay, I can see that I'm doing things that maybe I don't really wanna be doing.Or I am expecting things of people that maybe I shouldn't, but why? Why is that a thing that we do? And I think it really comes down to social contracts.Right.So social contracts sort of help keep a society cohesive. And so if we all agree on certain rules, then the idea is we can all live within those rules more or less harmoniously.[00:11:24] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:11:25] Rowan: But it goes deeper than that because it's also about interpersonal relationships, right? Like what do you think as a coach, some of the obstacles are when it comes to define. The expectations that people have of you?[00:11:41] Lara: Oh gosh. People are scared. I mean,understandably, it's scary to go outside of what you have been told your whole life is what you're supposed to want. right off the bat. I work mostly with small business owners and right off the bat, small business owners have already gone off the path of what most people consider, to be the way we're supposed to do and get a career. But it's a constant, what should I do?What am I supposed to do? And it's really hard to break away and think it's okay if I just. Do it the way I want to do it. It's okay if I'm not doing things the way other people would've done it, but I'm doing it the way I want to do it. And I think all of it comes around to perfectionism and sort of the idea that what we've been told is the ideal must be right.It's like we're taking it on faith that what society has told us is the perfect life. Is the perfect life. Therefore we should want it, whether it's, you know, a spouse and children and a house and a car and, whatever it is. That that is what we should want because clearly somebody, it's like, well, they must have done the research.They've looked into this, they know this is the right and best thing, but , oh, it's not because, and this is gonna, , lead back into some of our past episodes. everybody's different. Not everybody wants the same thing. Not everybody cares about the same things. It's shocking, right?[00:13:13] Rowan: You see this a lot in, faith-based communities, and I'm not here to bash faith-based communities. I think they can be really wonderful and uplifting and supportive depending on the, belief, the community around it, et cetera. But I was raised Catholic. And in my Catholic upbringing, the expectations were very, very clear.You are straight. You follow certain guidelines when it comes to the gender you were assigned at birth. You definitely want children. You should have children. And if you don't have children, it's because you can't have children, and then you should be going out of your way to find a way to have children like adopting them, for example, it was very, very clear what the guidelines were.And I think that those rules, those expectations, they work really well for some people. Some people really want that life. And I wasn't mad about getting married and having children. I wanted to get married and have children, not necessarily the way that I did, but I could find happiness there. and I certainly.Love my kids, and I'm so glad that I had them I always wanted , to be a parent. I specifically wanted to be a dad. but I also think that there was a sadness because I had it all in some ways. I bought a home. I was married at 20 with a child. Bought a home at 22,, had my tidy little house in the suburbs with my little gardens and, you know, and, raised my kids.And there was a part of it that always felt wrong. I was like, I have everything. Everything's right here. So what is it that's missing? And what was missing was I was playing a role in society, the role of a woman. That did not fit me, and I knew, and this is why I buried it so deep down, even from myself, most of the time whenever it came up, I'd push it back down.and the other issue of course, is that at the time you know, I thought I was married to a man. And so,there was a lack of attraction there in that sense. And I knew that this life would be perfect for me if only there were some changes to who I was and to who I was married to. But the idea of stepping outside of that was terrifying because what would that mean? I mean, it would mean that we weren't going to church at that point. . Like I don't consider myself Catholic today. and so we weren't raising our children , in a faith-based, situation, but.I have family who are Catholic. I have friends who are deeply religious. I had, you know, all these things. So it was like what does that mean if we do change things around? What if I came out, like if I came out, what would that do? And then what would that do to my children?And then would my children have friends? Like I just kept following it down, , are my children's friends' parents, would they be okay with that? And it just kept going. And so I think sometimes. We get stuck so deeply in the fear, like you were saying, that fear of stepping outside of the box.Because the risk is real. The risk is, and it's, higher for some people than it is for others. If you live in a big city and your circle's largely accepting, you can make some changes and they're probably gonna be okay with it. But then, there are other areas where it's like everybody kind of does the same thing.And the minute that you don't, wow, do you stick out and you don't necessarily stick out in a good way. And then what? Then your whole life becomes. Worrying about what other people are thinking, what they're saying, whether or not you're going to feel safe, where you live, and that, those are the big things, obviously.I mean that, like coming out for example, that's, it shouldn't be a big thing, but it is a big thing. , In this day and age still, you know, but even changing careers, if you are an engineer, but you want to be a sculptor. The idea, you're like, I think I wanna do this full time.Your engineering friends are probably going to think you're crazy, right? . You know, because why would you leave a good job, say like a six figure job to go be a sculptor? So I think there's a lot of these times when we don't take the leap because we're so, so deeply afraid.[00:17:40] Lara: Yeah, and afraid of two parts. So let's take the sculptor for example. If I decide I wanna go be a sculptor, number one, other people will be like, what? But you like went to school for all those years. Why are you destroying an amazing career for something that's, not going to be? Very good, or it's going to be hard, like , you're making a weird choice that I don't like.Right. You people are gonna think that. There's also the piece where you're like, I'm gonna make so much less money, probably, at least in the beginning. And is that a smart choice? Right? There's so many things that come up. So I wanna back up because I think this comes back to a couple of different things.One, I think we've all been taught to try to fit in. More than we've been taught to find places we belong. And so when you're trying to fit in, you're trying to be what you think people want you to be and trying to fit in is not what I think people should be doing. It's what I thought. People should be doing for a very long time.It's what I was trying to do for a very long time to try to fit in so that you feel accepted and so like you feel like you've done the right thing, but trying to belong means that you're just gonna go find the right people where you feel good. And those arevery different things, but that's not what we're taught to do.The other piece is, when you're talking aboutthose societal expectations. Our go-to reaction is to fix ourselves so that we can want that. Right? So what do I have to do to fix myself so that I can get on board with the right thing?[00:19:18] Rowan: Right? Like it's something that you are like, like it's a fault on your end for not wanting it.It's like there's something broken inside of you for not wanting that thing.[00:19:27] Lara: Exactly. And it's because. Deciding to do something different could blow up a lot of your life. it's just so multifaceted, right? So, one, am I gonna blow up my life? Am I gonna wreck everybody else's life by trying to be who I wanna be?Or by doing things differently or by challenging the world? Or do I wanna just fit in, be quiet, and just try to do my best at life? And so it feels. Like something scary and dangerous and maybe selfish to decide that you wanna change the way the world works, which is not really what you're doing, but it could be what it feels like.[00:20:06] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. And I also wanna say that there is, an ambiguity to this a little bit too. So I don't know a lot of people. Who are living the dream life that they wanted to live. Exactly.[00:20:23] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:20:24] Rowan: There are people who are following their dreams. Maybe it takes a little longer. I'm opening a coffee shop, for example, and now I get to, grow beard where I didn't get to grow a beard before.So I mean, like, , you know, things are happening for me in the right direction, which is wonderful, butI also think that there. Can be an acceptance that life is never going to look exactly like you dreamed it to be.So you can have the expectation of following your dreams or,living more authentically. While also accepting that some parts maybe you can't change.Maybe you've already made decisions. Maybe you can't leave your job right now. Or maybe, I don't know. I'm just trying to think of like different things, but like, maybe you don't live exactly where you wanna live because it's just not possible to live there.But I think that you can find joy in that too. So it's, okay to change what you can change and maybe not change everything. I don't wanna give this impression because I think there's a privilege to that, to be able to say oh yeah, you can just blow everything up if you want to. And it's totally fine.Not for everyone. Not for everyone, right? Some people, if they come out, if they quit their job, it can put them in a very dire situation. So I think it's all right to say, in an ideal world, we would all be able to blow those expectations out of the water and just go, yeah, whatever, screw it.but , for some of us, maybe it's just little baby steps. Maybe there's just little smaller things we can do that are more in line with. Where we wanna go, or maybe the plan is longer. Maybe there's a five year plan, a 10 year plan to get to where we want to be. I know somebody, for example, who is , a trans woman, and she did not feel she could come out before she retired.She knew for years and years and years that she was a woman, but also knew that in her company. At the time, there were no protections for trans people in the country at her company. It was not a very tolerant place, and that if she wanted to be able to pay off her mortgage, she wanted to be able to retire comfortably.She needed to keep doing that. Is that a choice I would make? I don't know. Do I understand that's a choice that she felt she needed to make? Absolutely. And when she did retire, she retired early. When she did retire, she had the security to come out as herself and transition the way that she wanted to transition and be financially secure for the rest of her life.So she played the expectation game for a while and now she gets to live as herself. You know, , again, there's an ambiguity.[00:23:14] Lara: Yeah. So I think there's the part where. We think about what expectations have been put on us and how we want to deal with it and what we can and can't change in the moment.But the other part is what expectations have you put on other people and how is that impacting their lives? And how is it impacting your life? Because if you expect somebody else to lead a certain kind of life, for you to be able to have the life you want, like that's number one. Too much pressure for a person, but also if that person, whatever expectation you might have, does anything different and like, it's just like now you are terrified or maybe you're not terrified until it happens.'cause you were so sure it was gonna happen. , Now I'm not gonna have the life I wanted. 'cause I wanted to be a grandparent because I wanted to. I can't think of another example off the top of my head, but I am remembering now that the reason I made this suggestion was during that podcast, it was somebody who had very, very distinct expectations for how their child was going to do academically in school, right?Like, I need you to have good grades. and even when they were talking about it, they were accepting that maybe their kid wouldn't have good grades, but in a way. And I don't think that they realized this, but what I was getting was in a way that was like, I have to accept that this kid is not going to be as successful as I thought, and I am learning to be okay with that.Versus the only wayfor a kid to be successful is to have high grades.[00:24:49] Rowan: Yeah.and that's fear talking, right? I'm sure. Maybe you have seen people who did not get high grades or maybe you yourself did not get high grades and you're not. Succeeding or those people are not succeeding the way that you interpret success.So maybe they're not making a lot of money. Maybe they're really struggling in various areas of their lives. Maybe , you don't have a plan for retirement, whatever it might be. So in the parent's mind. You know, my child must be a straight A student, must get really good grades. They can get into a really good school so that they can get a really good degree.So they can get a really good job. Right. I'm just trying to set them up for success and. That might not be the child that you have. I have two children who did not finish high school. I've talked about this before . Who are both successful in their own rights. One of them ended up going to college as a mature student.One of them is following a music career right now, and they're both doing quite well. It's just not in the way that perhaps is the norm. Right. I think. The other thing that I've seen, and I actually subscribed to this for a while too, before one of my children came out as trans, I thought I had three boys.Also at the time was identifying as a woman. So I subscribed the whole hashtag boy, mom, mom of boys thing, right? And like, you see this happen over and over where? parents will take on the identity of their children. Now, if you're not a parent, you're listening to this, keep listening because this doesn't just apply to parents.This is an expectation. that parents of adult children have as well, right? this, idea that like if I have a child of a certain gender, I will have these experiences with that child. So there's this idea of like, oh, I have a son. He's gonna play lots of sports. None of the children I, I, thought were my three boys.Are sporty, including the two who are actually boys. They don't like sports, none of them. I didn't actually have that expectation, but what I'm saying is that a lot of people would or the idea that, you know, I, I remember when I found out that the last child that I gave birth to was a boy, and the other two I still thought were boys.A family member found out and she gave me this big hug and told me how sorry she was[00:27:24] Lara: Aw.[00:27:25] Rowan: Yeah, , she was very sorry for me that I would never have a daughter because having daughters is wonderful and I thought, what about having daughters is wonderful? Specifically, like what specifically do you have with all daughters?Because I don't think that's true either, right? This idea that your daughter will get married one day and you will go dress shopping with her, or that you will be there when she inevitably gives birth to your grandchild or whatever it might be, you don't know what path that child is going to take. Just like all three of the children who I assumed were my sons one, it turns out, is not a son.Took wildly different paths in life. All of their lives look incredibly different than the life that, you know, in my head, I thought they were going to lead based on their gender.[00:28:19] Lara: And just probably just based on what it is that kids are supposed to do and whatever generation you live in, right?Like there are certain expectations that I think are changing right now. So maybe the millennials, younger millennials having children might have a. Totally different expectation of what their kids should be like, but the expectations that you are going, and I don't wanna just focus on parenting, but like, I think that it changes by generation.And I think that it also impacts your expectations of what a good employee is, your expectations of what a good friend is. The expectations that are out there for a lot of. Employees is that if they really care about their job, they would put in more than was asked of them. Now you're working hard, like you're bringing your work home, you're impressive.And therefore, that's what you think you should do. And therefore you're going to convince yourself that that's what you'd like to do because you're a dedicated, hardworking person and that's who you wanna be. I'm not saying nobody actually wants any of the things that the expectations are tied to.All I'm saying is there is an opportunity for all of us to ask ourselves, do we have expectations for ourselves and for other people that are simply part of the societal expectations. We never really spent time thinking about.[00:29:42] Rowan: I also think that if you look at various cultures around the world today.There are some similarities in expectations, and there are some big differences in expectations. an expectation here in North America for most families is that we do not have multi-generational living. Our parents live separately from us. Our children will grow up and live separately from us.Right. That's always the way , that we were taught. Things are supposed to be, but then you go to some other cultures. Where it is the expectation that your parents will continue to live with you and now you'll support them instead of them supporting you because they're getting older and they will help you with the children as much as they can.And you all live in one home.Right. And that's the expectation. So, if you look throughout just history, the expectations of. People and families and everything have changed right down to, it used to be that families all slept in the same bed and now children sleep in their own rooms.Right? And, and not even usually rooms that they share completely separate rooms. Everybody gets their own space, so it's okay to question expectations. The only reason a lot of these things changed is because. We questioned the expectation, various people asked if these things really worked for them or the people around them, and then gradually those changes were made to the point where the societal expectation became the new thing.So. They don't have to be rigid. We don't have to be rigid in our thinking. Here it is. Okay. And actually very human and healthy to push back against expectations that are not working. That is how we grow as individuals and it's how we grow as societies.[00:31:41] Lara: If anybody listening has any people or tools that they've found that really help people explore what it is that they want and whether or not they wanna change anything, please come and share those with us.I would love to hear about it because I think, , it's definitely still a work in progress for me. It's a work in progress for figuring myself out and for the supporting that I do of other people. But I do think what's key is it's okay. To not do what's always been thought was the right thing to do.And it's okay to sort of mess with things. And I think that if we don't have people who do that, like we need people who are going to, sometimes it's innovate, sometimes it's, you know, disruptors, but we need that in the world. It's not a bad thingto not go with the status quo.[00:32:32] Rowan: Agreed.[00:32:32] Lara: I think that this is a really good discussion about expectations. I think thatWe can have expectations, but just don't assume. What you've always thought is the right thing to think and let yourself challenge your beliefs and think about different options[00:32:48] Rowan: and have really honest conversations with the people you care about.About what they want. What do they want for their lives? What do their lives actually look like? Is the person who isn't replying to your text, for two or three days because they don't care about you? Or is it because they have a lot going on right now? Or is it because that is way down the priority list for them right now because they're using less screen time?I mean, who knows, right? So I think having these expectations. Set us up for disappointment can be changed with some healthy communication sometimes.[00:33:26] Lara: Agreed. Alright, this is a good topic. Again, please comment, share your ideas. The more I get feedback from people. The more I'm happy, which is, you know, that's just for me.But also it helps us come up with more topics. Come subscribe to our substack and thank you. Thank you to all of those who have become paid subscribers, because that really does help us be able to do more of this.[00:33:50] Rowan: It sure does. Thank you so much. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Growing up, we were largely taught there was a “normal” way of thinking, and that anything outside of that was weird and rare. In this week’s episode, we’re pushing back on that outdated narrative. From the way we see colour to the way we feel when music plays, everyone’s brain has unique qualities - so why does society push us to think and see the world the same way as everyone else?Lara discusses having aphantasia (the inability to form or use visuals in one’s head) and Rowan has a form of synesthesia (where the stimulation of one sense involuntarily ignites another). And the more we’ve talked to others about the way our brains work, the more we’ve realized everyone has a quirk or two in their own grey matter, whether they’ve been aware of it or not.It’s a fascinating topic, and we’d love to hear how you think your brain is different from other people’s. Drop us a line and let us know!(Also: Curious to know if you have aphantasia? This chart will help you figure it out. Rowan is a 1. Lara is a 5.)Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Links:Lara wrote an article about her Aphantasia for the Aphantasia Network.Episode 10: Education doesn't always have to look the sameTranscript(Please note, these are not carefully edited and there may be some errors)[00:00:00] Lara: When you understand that other people's brains are processing information differently, then you can at least think, oh.This person is thinking differently, not this person is being obtuse, not this person is trying to be confrontational, not this person is just being silly. Hi everybody. Welcome back to unboxing it. I'm Lara.[00:00:44] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.[00:00:46] Lara: And today we are gonna talk about something that I think is fascinating. If you gave me the chance to talk about this, most of the time, I would gladly take it because I think it's so interesting and so fascinating and I just love. The human experience , in talking about it this way.[00:01:07] Rowan: We're all dying to know what it is.[00:01:09] Lara: I know, right?it is really about brains and how they're all different. And I think that we grew up thinking that most of us are the same. Right. That in general, the way we think, the way we see the world, the way we process things, that they are the same for most of us.[00:01:31] Rowan: Yeah, that there's like a normal[00:01:34] Lara: and that even that we think we know what that normal is like. Just like, oh, everybody is like this, and number one, it's not true. Brains are different in so many different ways, and when we accept that. And we believe that we can stop feeling like we aren't measuring up to this normal that we believe we're supposed to be.[00:02:00] Rowan: Yeah. This idea that having a brain that doesn't work like other people's brains in some capacity is somehow a flaw Is unfortunate and. In some cases when brains work differently, that can be a real strength.[00:02:20] Lara: It can, I totally agree. And I think, you know, this becomes a bigger conversation that we're having more and more in recent years because.There are more and more people who are being diagnosed with ADHD and autism. Both of those are a spectrum. So now you have people who range all through the spectrum talking about their experiences and not trying. To be okay all the time, but instead saying, Hey, this is actually how I think instead of believing, you have to force yourself into what you think is normal.And so there's all these conversations happening and I love that because I think it's important.[00:02:59] Rowan: I think it can be really validating for people to receive a diagnosis, especially in adulthood because a lot of us were. Different in some capacity when we were younger and often being different in that way meant that we struggled to fit in maybe socially or to do well academically in the conventional school system, which we have talked about at length already in another episode, we have.Made it so that if you are different, if your brain is different, that means that life has to accommodate that difference. And I actually do very strongly believe in accommodations. I do believe that. But the reason why I think, and this is I think a greater discussion, I'd love to hear other people's views on this, but I Am neurodivergent myself. I know a lot of neurodivergent people and neurodivergent simply means that your brain doesn't work in a neurotypical way, if you will. That baseline normal, and I'm using air quotes here, I think the reason why. We have to be accommodated as neurodivergent people as much as we do is because society operates in this way where everybody's brain is supposed to work the same way.So it just comes back to that messaging and if we accept it that there are these. Differences and that these differences are a part of life, a part of humanity, a part of evolution, perhaps. I mean, I don't know. I'm not a specialist in this, but, that these differences have always existed.Then they could be treated as just part of society. There may be quieter spaces available for people with sensory overload, people who get, you know, overloaded very easily, and there could be. Brighter spaces for people who need that stimulation. It would just be more part of society instead of, oh, you are different.Stay home, or, oh, you're different. We have to treat you a certain way and sort of leave you out of society.[00:05:09] Lara: Yeah. and I know some people feel frustrated that. Some folks, I'm gonna talk about ADHD 'cause that's my personal experience that people will say, oh, ADHD is a superpower.They're like, no, it's not. It's a disability. And I think, it's a bit of both, right?[00:05:24] Rowan: Yeah.[00:05:25] Lara: And it's understanding that I am not suggesting that having ADHD. Is not a big deal. Like there are so many things that I struggle with, but a lot of what folks with ADHD struggle with, not all but a lot, is being able to fit into a world that wasn't designed for ADHD brains, right?Like when, we go back to like what the school system looks like, sitting in a classroom all day, sitting at a desk all day, like all of these things. Aren't designed for that kind of brain. Now, again, we talked about this in the education episode, like I wish that there was a way to easily help people in each kindof brain to have their best experience., In an ideal world. Teachers would be able to accommodate all the different kinds of brains, but it's really difficult in the system that we have now.This is an entirely deeper conversation. Like again, talking about brains and the way that they're different is something that I love to do. But I also think that for most people, and this is why I thought this might be an interesting episode, and I'm hoping people find it interesting, is that they don't really have a clear.Understanding of how brains are different. Like what does that mean? Right? It's just like, you know what I see as blue? I don't think there's any way that people can prove that you don't see purple, right? Like, because if I say the sky is blue and you know, if all of what I see is blue. And there's no other way to describe it other than blue. And then you see it as orange. Like, , we don't know.[00:07:05] Rowan: No, we don't. And also they've shown that there are people who can see. More diversity in color than others. I mean, we know we have colorblind people.Yes, but also there are people who can see many more shades of blue than others. apparently I'm one of them. I don't know though, how would I prove that? I don't know. But how would I explain to you what I see and then my partner. Can see even more colors than I can. And funny enough, she went into design, right?So that kind of speaks to her strengths. But we are all so different and it is really hard to operate on this baseline of everybody should be this way. when the amount of differences it, it goes beyond. Colors. We can see it goes beyond ADHD, it goes beyond autism. You know, I have something called synesthesia.Mm-hmm. And I just looked it up because I know it's not super common, but it's common enough. It's estimated three to 13% of the population has synesthesia. And what that is, is when you experience something with one sense, you. Experience it with another sense as well. It's just the way your brain is wired.So for example, I know I have one form of synesthesia and I don't know what the other one is called, but I know I have that too. Both of them are around sound and then visualization. So one of them is ticker tapes synesthesia, when somebody is speaking, including me, I see every single word.That they speak, when the TV is on and I don't have captions on, 'cause captions will take that away for me. 'cause it's like my brain's like, oh good, I don't have to work. It's already right there. I see everything they speak. If somebody is speaking in a language I don't understand, my brain tries to cobble together words, not English words, but just tries to cobble together the sounds that it is hearing.when somebody speaks more loudly. The words are bigger and the color of the words may change, more quietly, same thing. And then people tend to have different fonts. sometimes those fonts repeat, but somebody might have a font that looks more rounded and somebody might have a font that looks more severe.And so all of this plays out in my head. All the time. And then on top of that, I see colors and shapes. When I hear music and I see all of my sounds, so like a horn, a jet. I actually see those and when they're really loud, it is blinding. Like it can actually stop my vision just for a split second.it is like, I can't see, That's just something that honestly have just always had. I'm assuming I couldn't spell words when I was a baby, but for as long as I remember, I have had this form of synesthesia and I didn't even know that I had it until I was in my forties. And I started to talk to somebody one day and I'm like, you know when people speak and you see all their words?And they were like, what? And I, right. And I was like, no. Like, you know that thing where you, like, you see, you see everybody's words right in your head when they talk. And they're like, no, I never see people towards, what are you talking about? That is when I started to investigate it and I realized, ah, this is how my brain is wired.That's really cool. So that's just one of the ways that people can be different.[00:10:29] Lara: I want to know. Before I keep talking about other things,do Ihave a font and what is it?[00:10:36] Rowan: You have a really nice sort of retro font and Yeah, and it's like sort of a burnt orange.[00:10:43] Lara: Hmm.[00:10:45] Rowan: Yeah, it's round. It's pleasant. It's a very, , soothing.It's one of my favorite fonts, actually. So That makes sense. You're one of my favorite people.[00:10:52] Lara: Aw, I like it. Okay. yeah, I was like, we cannot continue until I know what my font looks like,so thank you. So the reason that this was a particularly fun topic for us is because Rowan has synesthesia and I have aphantasia. And so if you have never heard of aphantasia, it is something that they say, three to 5% of people have it. I am skeptical and we'll talk about that more, but it is the inability to visualize.And certain forms of aphantasia are also from what I've heard, that some people can bring up sounds in their brains. They can bring up smells, like all of that. So some people just, can't visualize. But like, I cannot visualize pictures. I cannot bring up smells, I cannot bring up sounds.I remember one of the things that was a clue for me was that. Somewhere I heard something say like, oh, one of the first things that you start to lose is the sound of your loved one's voices. Like in your memory, if you haven't been with them for a long time, like you start to forget what their voices sound like.And I was like, did we know that in the beginning? Like Is that something that, that I would have to lose? That I could just pull up the sound of their voices in my head. and that was a clue. That was one of my clues.[00:12:13] Rowan: Wow. So, this begs the question, for example, when you think of me .Can you see my face,[00:12:21] Lara: no.[00:12:21] Rowan: Can't see my face.You can't hear my voice.[00:12:24] Lara: No.[00:12:25] Rowan: So how do you remember me? This is a genuine question. I'm sorry. That's probably really ignorant, but truly, how do you recall me? Because when I think of you, I think of your face, your voice, your laughter, I can think of you, right?[00:12:36] Lara: I'm so glad you asked this because this is one of the questions I get asked sometimes and I'm like. What happens when you remember somebody like is it like a cacophony of like pictures and sounds in your head? I'm like, I just know who you are. and again, like there's no language that will properly explain.I just think of you because if you think, and it involves pictures and sounds and laughter and I say, I think, and you're like, but think of what I'm like. Of you? Like, I can't, like how do I explain something that just happens and I, don't understand even how to describe it. Is it like, I'm not like thinking of a list of words, like that's not what I'm thinking.I just know things.[00:13:21] Rowan: You sound very wise, sounds very wise. I just know things. Okay.[00:13:29] Lara: But like, I've had people say that, like, how do you remember things? And I was like, honestly, this is a genuine question. Every time you try to remember something or think of it or like you're doing a test when you're in school, whatever itis.Is it visual?[00:13:44] Rowan: Sometimes. Sometimes it is.Yeah, a lot of times,so, you know, my partner and I are opening this coffee shop and so I was doing my food safety certification. All my customers will be happy to know that I am food safety certified. But when I was doing my final exam, it was a closed book exam and the question came up and I actually visualized the part of the video or the part of the site that I read or whatever, the textbook that showed me that answer.That was part of what I did sometimes to remember things. Yeah.[00:14:23] Lara: Which to me sounds like a photographic memory, which I've heard of all the time and knew some people had this incredible talent.[00:14:30] Rowan: I don't,[00:14:31] Lara: right? Like all the ways that we think and process are different. Some people have an internal monologue.I certainly have an internal monologue, right? Like if I let it, it's just like chatter in my brain. I'm like. Am I talking to myself? Not exactly, but sort of, right? Like there is an internal monologue going on. Some people have no internal monologue. I was like, if you have no internal monologue, how do you think?Like, do you know what I mean? Like to me it's like, there, there, how can that possibly be? Like when I'm thinking about writing something, when I think about doing a speech, I'm writing it in my head first, which to me is my internal monologue thinking. And then. I've done half the work just thinking it through.Whereas some people, I think they're just like, they get in front of a page and they start typing and then they find out what they thought after they wrote it down.[00:15:17] Rowan: Yeah,no, I definitely have an internal monologue as well, and I'm, well, we both are, but I'm an author and so words are my thing, and when putting words on paper that's my thing.But I think. In that eternal monologue, eternal it. It is eternal. Sometimes it never stops. It's that internal monologue happens constantly. Okay, but I have to go back to something 'cause I have a real question for you. So. You're very open about this. You're an artist and your art is visual.You do visual art, which I love you do. and you can talk more about that for sure. I am sure people would be really interested to know, but. How do you do visual art when you can't visualize? Again, I don't want anyone to get angry at me. I'm not asking these questions in a judgmental way. I'm really trying to learn how that would work.So for me, I'm an abstract painter, so I get in front of the canvas and I, start to envision what it is I want to do, and I start to create it. Now, it always looks different than what I envision, but even if I were. were trying to recall like a plant or something, I would just think of the plant and I would maybe try to draw it or paint it or whatever, unless it's right in front of me if I wanted something really realistic.But like how do you do that?[00:16:35] Lara: So first of all, I know several artists who have aphantasia, like it's not uncommon. Just out the gate, I wanna say that. The other thing is, there used to be a part of me that was like. Why can't I just pull things out of my brain and create art with them? Like I should have it all imagined in my brain.I use a lot of reference images and I have ideas of what I want to create, but I don't see it ahead of time. I just have concepts. And again, I think that. Some of my feelings at the beginning were like I can't be a good artist 'cause I can't just out of nothing create something. However, if you think about any artist over time, like they go out and they see things and like , they'll have people posing, they'll have, you know,, their, Bowl of fruit and they're looking at it, right? Like they don't need to like look at it once, remember, and then recreate it.[00:17:28] Rowan: Yeah.[00:17:29] Lara: So for me, like I said, I have a lot of images and a lot of times it's just like experimentation and we're gonna see what happens. Or there are certain things like.Understanding values, understanding shading, right? Like there are concepts that you learn and then you're like, okay, I believe this needs to look like this. However, I'm gonna go back to what does this look like? Let me look at this photograph. Let me think about how the shading is gonna work. I don't try to remember it.I use tools to be correctly informed.[00:17:59] Rowan: That's cool. No, I mean, that makes absolute sense and certainly, a lot of the greatest paintings of our time were plein air paintings. Right. They were people who went out and painted the world that they saw and the people that they saw. So certainly, I don't wanna discount that as art 'cause it's absolutely very much art.It's more, I think for me, the way that I create. It's very much in my head. And so I was curious if, you just started working on something and. I don't know, not imagined it clearly, because I know not able to bring that up to conjure that image, but yeah, like what, tools were you using to do that?So that's really neat. , And I like that there are so many artists that have aphantasia.[00:18:45] Lara: Yeah. and just another thing is a lot of my art, some of it's abstract, most of it isn't, A lot of it is based on photographs. Of places and things that I want to have near me because I like them.like, I am an avid photo taker, and when I go on a trip, like I post my photos every day on Facebook, people are like, why are you so into that? And this is a pet peeve of mine that people are like, put down the camera and just enjoy the place.If I don't take pictures when I'm there, I never get to experience it again.[00:19:17] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. My goodness. That is a really important thing for people to remember. Not everybody, again, thinks the same way we do. And you wanna have those memories. I mean, I like to take photos too, but I do have the ability to recall things, although I have historically had a really bad memory.And that's the other thing. The other thing about me. And I've realized this is just part of who I am. Maybe it's the way my brain works. Maybe it is shaped by trauma. When I was younger, I have no idea why this is, but I can watch a movie and then forget everything about that movie to the point where my partner swears we've watched that movie before.And I will swear that we did not, I don't remember it. And then maybe halfway in or a third of the way in, there's one scene or something that comes up and I'm like, oh, this sounds vaguely familiar. Oh yeah, I have seen this before. But like, she on the other hand can tell you everything about virtually every movie she's ever seen and who is in it and who directed it and everything else.I'm the complete opposite. I always have been, or I think I'd be worried.[00:20:32] Lara: I have a friend like that. She remembers everybody. She remembers all the plot lines or most of them. you can count on her to remember things. I also don't remember a lot of things. I also, will often be able to tell you I read that book and I liked it, but if you asked me what it was about or who was in it, I don't know.Like I just, I know I liked it.[00:20:49] Rowan: Yeah, I'm also terrible with names, so it's like, especially character names, so I can watch an entire series through. I just finished watching Untamed on Netflix, which I loved. It's a good. Series, you know, like a who done it sort of, takes place in Yosemite National Park.The characters are good, really enjoyed it. actually filmed in British Columbia, of course, but, it is a fantastic thing. Now ask me what the main character's name was. I just finished it two days ago. The first six episodes. Nope. No idea. Ask me who anybody's name was in it. No idea at all.Couldn't tell you. I can describe what they looked like. I can describe their mannerisms. I can tell you what they did, probably at this stage. I'll forget later, but I can tell you a lot about that. But their names, even though I watched it with subtitles to give my brain a break, so I saw their names over and over and over.Can't recall them at all.Noidea.[00:21:47] Lara: Same, same. I'm watching a show rightnow. What is it called? Nine Perfect Strangers, and Ican't tell you. Almost any of their names. I'm still in the middle of it, but it doesn't matter. Like I know approximately who they are.[00:22:01] Rowan: They're strangers.You're not gonna know their names[00:22:03] Lara: exactly.But to that point, again, talking about different ways that people think, I know some people who have face blindness, which is basically they're not gonna remember your face. So they've met you, they liked you, they had a conversation with you. But if it wasn't like somebody who became like a big part of their life, the next time they meet them, they're not going to recognize that face.You would think that with Aphantasia, maybe I have that problem. Not at all. Like I couldn't describe that person to you when they're not with me very well, I'll get to that in a minute. But if I meet them again, I've had people where I'm like, oh, I met you once 10 years ago at a party.You were wearing a red shirt and you told me about your brother, Joe. And they'll be like, that's creepy. Like, I have gotten to the point where I generally will not tell somebody who I only just vaguely met that I remember so much about them because it creeps people out. But like, I have all that knowledge in my head.I could not have described that person to you when they were not there. But as soon as I see them, the information is in my brain somewhere. It's just stored differently. It's stored in a different way.[00:23:12] Rowan: That's so cool.[00:23:14] Lara: The other thing that's sort of related is I remember, you know, when I was younger and you'd be like, oh, I met this guy, he was super cute, and they'd be like, what did he look like?I was like a guy, I think he was taller than me. He had brown hair.Like worst person in the world to have to do one of those, like crime, identifying. Picture things.[00:23:37] Rowan: Oh yeah, you'd be terrible at that.[00:23:39] Lara: But I mean, and I think this would take 10 years. It wouldn't work. But like I could, as, somebody drew somebody or somebody gave me like a bank of photos, I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. But I can't tell you any details just off the top of my head. Like, I am not positive. I could do that well for my children.Like I know what they look like in my head. Butnot in a, like, , Yeah, I just don't have the words,like I don't know how to say anything other than like face, like, do you know what I mean?[00:24:09] Rowan: face?[00:24:10] Lara: Yeah. They all have faces.[00:24:13] Rowan: all, my children have faces, mother of the year,[00:24:20] Lara: but like, how to describe like their nose or their mouth like.[00:24:25] Rowan: Yeah,I mean, you know, I think we should just be grateful that we live in a time when photos exist.[00:24:33] Lara: I am.[00:24:33] Rowan: And that plentiful amount of photos exist too. Like people are taking 'em of themselves all the time. So there are plenty of pictures. You don't have to worry about that. That's good. That's good.[00:24:43] Lara: So I'm thinking like I get easily overwhelmed, in loud places.Like I could never study in like a bar or like, I remember in university people like, oh, we're gonna go to the pub and we're gonna study. I'd be like, how do you even think in a place like that? I like complete quiet when I have to think something through. no music, no background noise.You know, people are like, oh, try these, you know,binaural beats,[00:25:12] Rowan: .Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just got two ads for that this morning. What does that tell you?[00:25:17] Lara: There you go. And like, I'm glad it works for some people, but like, I need quiet and I wonder if it's like, I do have an internal monologue, but like, I don't have.All this extra sensory input that I feel like anybody with synesthesia would have where it's like being, and this shows you how I feel, the differences and it's why I am sure you feel the opposite. You're like, how do you remember things? I'm like, how do you think when you're being bombarded with sounds and smells and like.To me, you're just gonna be battered with it.[00:25:54] Rowan: Yeah. There are two things. One is I've had to train my brain over time and I think my, no, I think my brain has trained itself. I don't wanna take any credit for that. I think that over time, just exposure to life has made it so that I've had to manage when I used to come to Toronto for business.I remember thinking to myself as I lived in the suburbs of Ottawa at the time, much, much quieter. I could never live here. I could never live in Toronto. It is so loud. It is so busy. There's sirens all the time. There's people yelling, there's horns. I mean, it's just, you know, construction. It's so loud and my brain won't be able to handle it.And now that I live here. Very quickly, actually. My brain was like, Nope, you're good. You're okay. Now, I do get overwhelmed by noise. I definitely do, and I get overwhelmed by a lot of people. So if I am, and I really like people, I wanna say that I enjoy going to parties. I enjoy interacting with people.I enjoy giving talks. I enjoy all of those things, but I need a break after because there are so many noises, so many conversations, so much laughter, so much input, and that is really tiring for my poor brain. So it needs to go away to a quiet spot after and rest. So I do that. I do that, but.Living in Toronto, I can go for hours now and while I start to notice it wearing me down over time and I'm like, hoo it's getting tiring? My brain's getting kind of tired. I can last so much longer than I used to. So there is something to be said for acknowledging our limits.And also building a bit of resilience. I think both of those things can happen at the same time, I know who I am. I know some things aren't going to change, and also I know the place that I live in. I know the society that I live in. I know that that's not going to change. And so I adapt a bit and I don't want this to come across as.Everyone should mask their neurodivergence and suck it up and deal with life. That is not at all what I'm saying. I'm speaking for myself, and I'm saying that in my particular case, my life would be a lot harder if I didn't teach myself some ways of coping with the world too.[00:28:22] Lara: I think that there's learning how to adapt and that there is also acknowledging that something isn't working, that you don't have to mask, but sometimes you do wanna adapt so that something is easier. But I think the reason that I think these conversations are so important is, number one, to realize somebody else isn't thinking the same way as you are, can mean.So much less miscommunication, right? Mm-hmm. The amount of times where you're like, why don't you just blah, blah, blah, right? Or I don't understand why this person wouldn't this thing. I don't know why you're getting so overwhelmed. It's just people talking like whatever it is. When you understand that other people's brains are processing information differently, then you can at least think, oh.This person is thinking differently, not this person is being obtuse, not this person is trying to be confrontational, not this person is just being silly. Like whatever thought you might have about people when they're doing something differently than you, I think it is very common to feel like what is your problem?And when you think, oh, they're processing this information differently. So I'll give you another example, which was, I don't know if you've ever heard of human design, but it's a bit new agey, let's call it that. it's based on your birthday and your birth time. But one of the things that it said about me, which I was like, oh, that is correct, is when I make decisions, I have a gut yes or no feeling about what I want.I may have some fears around it. I may question. The feeling, but I know what I ultimately would prefer, even if I have to talk through it. And so that is how I make most decisions. I would get so frustrated when I would talk to somebody, present them all the facts of a situation, and they'd be like, I have to think about it.I'd be like, like, what are you doing? Just like sitting there asking yourself, do I wanna do this? Do I wanna do this? Like, what are you doing? And when I understood that the processing was different, some people, just needed to sit in their body for a little while. Sometimes they need to feel the emotions of it and run themselves through the emotions of what they think they're gonna feel like and what that means to them.And they don't have a gut yes or no. When I realized that it stopped being. What are you doing? And being like, totally get it. Why don't we pick a time in a day, in two days to come back to it and see if you have any follow up questions and then we can go from there. But in the beginning it was like what?Like what is happening?[00:31:02] Rowan: Yeah. And also if we operate, some people operate on a more logical level. Some people operate on a more emotional level. Some people are pretty balanced in that area. But. I can get frustrated when I'm a pretty emotional guy, but when I'm presenting somebody facts, these are research facts.These are provable facts. These are things that, you know, and working in trans advocacy is an example of this, right? Where I will provide somebody with counter arguments to the points that they're making, I mean, the points that they're making are not based in reality at all. And the counterpoints that I'm providing are a hundred percent fact checkable.And here are the sources and here's everything else. And these are not bad people. I'm not trying to say these are, like bigoted people that I'm talking to, but just say somebody has an idea about trans kids or something, for example, and they're saying things that just aren't true.And I say, okay, so here are the actual facts about that and here's where you can find out more. And here are the studies that prove that. And well, I'm gonna need to think about that for a little bit. I'm still not sure, and I can get very frustrated because. I won't get frustrated in their face, but internally I'll get frustrated because I'm like, this is logic.I am providing you with actual logical proof to the contrary of what you have believed. And if somebody does that for me and provides me with those things, and I can look at them and go, huh? Oh, okay, you are right. the earth is in fact round, right? And here are the satellite images and you know, I have to remember that some people are driven by different things than I am.And quite often people do come around, but you do have to give some people time. There are people that take time to process and there are people who are more emotional than they are. Factual, more logical thinkers, and they have to let go of some feelings that came with the beliefs they used to have, or whatever it is to embrace the education that has just been given to them.[00:33:06] Lara: And just understanding that somebody isn't being contrary, they're not saying it's gonna take me some time to. Be a reasonable person. Like, you know what I mean? Like that's not what they're saying. Like they're just like, , let me process it. It's not how I think. So I have to take a leap of faith and believe that it's simply different for other people.But if you never even entertained the idea, then how are you gonna know? So let's come back to the aphantasia for a minute, which I said, you know, I think three to 5% they say of people, and I think it's higher because the amount of people. That I have explained what aphantasia is and how I figured out that I have it and they're like fascinating.And then like by the end of the conversation or by the next week, they're like, I think I have aphantasia. Because if you never considered that other people we re literally visualizing something. When they said like, picture this in your head. You're like, okay, I'm thinking of it. They're like, no, no, no.Other people see it. Other people see it, and they never considered that that was an option. Then how are they supposed to. Know that something is different, and so that's why I think it's so important to have this sense. I'm gonna drop into the chat a link to a page that has, wait. Actually, don't click on it yet.First I would like to ask you to picture in your head an apple.[00:34:34] Rowan: Got it?[00:34:35] Lara: Okay. Now click on the link that I sent you and you'll see if you scroll down a little bit. That there's like a one through five option of what did you see?[00:34:46] Rowan: Oh, I saw one for sure. I saw one.[00:34:48] Lara: I'll put a link to this in the, show notes, but it's like a, like, almost like a photograph.I would even say, some of my family members have said like, that is not, even enough. Like they see it's almost like a video, right? Like, it's like a movable object that like Yeah.[00:35:03] Rowan: Yeah, so if you look at this, it says self-check. What can you visualize? So image one is what I picture when I see an apple.It's very similar to what you would see if an apple was, sitting in front of you on the counter. And image two is. Just sort of the contours of the apple. It's really just, like the colors and shape of the apple. So the red apple, the brown stem, and a green leaf. And image three is like the outline of an apple.It's filled in, but the entire thing is red, but there's no distinction between the stem and the leaf. In terms of color, it's all red. And then four is just simply an outline of an apple, and then five. Which is labeled aphantasia has nothing. So you cannot picture an apple at all?[00:35:52] Lara: No.[00:35:53] Rowan: Wow.[00:35:53] Lara: And I know what what an apple is. I can tell you an apple is kind of like a roundish shape, but like I can describe it to you better than I could describe those people. who I was asked what they looked like because it's less detail. I can, yeah. Like it's red. They have a face.but I know what an apple looks like. I don't feel like I'm missing anybody by not being able to pull up a picture of it in my head, but like what do you see when you close your eyes and you're thinking of something? I'm like the back of myeyelids.[00:36:23] Rowan: Huh? Wow. Does that make sleep easier?[00:36:26] Lara: Okay, so again, I could talk about this forever.I do dream there are visuals in my dreams. It's a different part of the brain apparently, that controls that, which means that every once in a while as I'm falling asleep and not quite asleep. I find the images will pop up and I'll be like, is this what it's like for them?[00:36:49] Rowan: It is . That's probably what it's like for us,[00:36:52] Lara: probablyBut again, the point here is you need to know that something exists for you to wonder if that applies to you.[00:37:00] Rowan: I think neuroscience is, , we are just unlocking parts of the brain that we have not been able to unlock before.There's going to be so much more of this coming up. And I think that's why compassion for others is important , and self-compassion is important. you know, , and also perhaps rewriting. Some of this, and I don't wanna put this on everybody, everybody can look at how their brains work the way that they want to look at it. but also rewriting some of the script, perhaps in some cases where it's like, there's something wrong with me because I think like this, there's something wrong with me because my brain works like this. there may be nothing wrong with you. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong.So. That societal view of everyone needs to operate this way, or there's a problem that has to change.[00:37:56] Lara: Yeah. Ithink that that's the key thing here, right? Is we have different options, different people come to conclusions in different ways. We are not. Broken. If we don't do things the way somebody told us to, there's nothing wrong if we need to process things differently.I learn so much better by doing than by just having somebody tell me what I'm going to be doing. Like I just need my hands in there as soon as possible. Other people wanna know all of the instructions before they start because that helps them understand what they're going to be doing. So the big thing here as we gave these examples of how you and I are different is that I hope people.Start to realize that sometimes when people are doing things differently, it's just genuinely because they are different. Not because again, they're trying to be difficult or. They don't understand the common things, right? Like I think that once we understand that that's true, it does allow for so much more compassion and empathy and not that we need empathy.Although sometimes when people don't think the way that the normal is, there's more challenges for them. So we can have empathy for that. But just understanding that we're in different places, thinking different things, thinking in different ways, and that most people are thinking differently, not just like the occasional outlier.Most people are thinking in different ways, processing in different ways. It gives us room to be patient and t o be able to explain a little bit more when somebody doesn't understand something or to ask additional questions when you're not sure why somebody is saying what they're saying, because the assumption is no longer that you would be obviously thinking this thing.Like it could be so many things and when you know that it just helpsmake life less frustrating, in my opinion.[00:39:49] Rowan: Love it. Good talk. I learned so much about your braintoday.[00:39:53] Lara: I know. Aren't brains fascinating?[00:39:55] Rowan: They're cool.[00:39:56] Lara: If there are more interesting brains and different ways of thinking, come and tell us.Like we'd love to talk more of. I mean, I don't know about you, Rowan. I would love to talk more about all the different brains. Come and tell us and just remember to understand we are not all the same. And that's not a bad thing.[00:40:14] Rowan: Thanks for joining us today. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Ever feel like a failure? It’s not your fault. As so often happens, society has taken something empowering and turned it into something toxic.Life often feels really heavy and like we have to do too much or risk not being enough. Over the years, the positive belief that “you can do anything you set your mind to” has morphed into the burden of “you HAVE to do everything or risk personal failure.” This belief can lead to lower self-esteem, anxiety, depression and burnout.In the episode of Unboxing It, we talk about division of labour, how women are still responsible for most of the domestic labour (ugh), how men are also being pushed to always do more - and there’s a little bit about Indian food in there too for good measure.Links and resources related to this episode:Research article : Couples’ Perceptions of the Division of Household and Child Care Tasks: Are there Differences between Sociodemographic Groups?Episode 10: Education doesn’t always have to look the sameEpisode 4: Resting isn’t lazyMeet the Tiffin Lady Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Transcript[00:00:00] Lara: Doing everything is exhausting, doing everything when you said burnout before, because stopped taking care of ourselves. We're just taking care of everything else and everyone else, and that's not really a happy life for most people. Hey, welcome to another episode of Unboxing It. I am Rowan.And I'm Lara.[00:00:43] Rowan: And we have got a really interesting topic, I think today. This, came off the wall in your office, right, Lara?[00:00:53] Lara: That's right. I've got a big list of topics that we've been collecting so that we can keep, having these weekly conversations that everybody gets to listen to.[00:01:02] Rowan: Yeah, my problem is that I will come up with one and if I don't text you about it right away, I forget about it, I completely just goes in one side of my brain and like out the other side of my brain. Is that, is that a thing? I think that's must be in one ear and out the other, but you know what I mean?[00:01:17] Lara: It works all the ways.[00:01:18] Rowan: So our topic this time is. When do we go from, you can do anything. You can be anything that you want to be. You can do anything you want to do to, you have to do everything and you have to be good at it.[00:01:39] Lara: And. You can do anything was new. I think when we were kids, like that wasn't a thing.Our parents and the generations before were even told you can do anything. They're like you, need to get a job and support your family and. Stop dreaming. Big life isn't like that. And then we started telling people they could do whatever they wanted, which I think in some ways was great. But also in some ways has led us down this path that we're gonna talk about with the need to do everything.[00:02:10] Rowan: Yeah, I think back in the day I love saying back in the day, and every time I say back in the day, I'm older than the last time I said it, which makes me so happy. we're Gen X. So like, you know, back in the, boomer years or back further, you know, you had people who were told, yeah, your purpose is you are going to grow up and you're going to help on the farm, and then you're going to take over that farm, for example.That was the case. In agriculture for a really long time. The expectation was you would probably do what your parents do, and in other situations it was you're going to do what your family expects of you. So it would be, you know, you're gonna go become a doctor, you're gonna go be a teacher, and then women were further limited.You're going to stay home and raise children, or you're going to get very limited schooling. And so this is why things really started to change over time when feminism became more prominent. Women especially we're then told You can be anything you want to be, but. I think the problem has been you can be anything you want to be, but you still have to be all those other things too.[00:03:19] Lara: Yeah. So now we opened up. Beyond teacher, nurse, and secretary.[00:03:26] Rowan: Yes. Teacher, nurse, secretary, mother is what women were allowed to do.[00:03:30] Lara: Yeah,[00:03:30] Rowan: that was pretty much it. Oh, phone operator sometimes that sort of secretary[00:03:34] Lara: There you go, phone operator.[00:03:35] Rowan: Yeah.[00:03:35] Lara: And so now you can be anything you wanna be, and if you think back to the way things used to be, but this is even before we experienced, I think it's like the men.Went to work. You wanna be a company man, right? Like the goal is to work somewhere till you get your gold watch. 'cause you spent 30, 40, 50 years working there and then you retire. And , the men, theoretically didn't need to worry much about how the home ran. And then women started.Going out and doing more things and getting more degrees and having the same kinds of jobs as men, and then who is gonna take care of the home and the kids, and the cleaning and the extracurriculars and allthe things.[00:04:22] Rowan: Yeah. And I think. the answer to that is still women for a large part of society on top of having a job.But I have seen that in the younger and younger generations, younger millennials and that sort of thing. We'll find some studies and put them in the show notes, but you are seeing more of a division of labor, but that's very new because in our lives, and I will say this as a trans man who's transitioned later in life.So I did live that life of a woman with children for years and years. I had to have a job. And I also, not that my partner wasn't supportive or not that, you know, she didn't help out kind of help that she was a she, I think, but not that she didn't help out, but , because I worked from home, also did a ton of other stuff in the home, right?I did a lot of cooking, I did a lot of cleaning and. In an ideal situation, I think you would either divvy up that labor as perfectly as you can, or. You would hire out to do some of that stuff because you're busy and your time is valuable. So when you are not working, you want to be spending time with your kids or you wanna be, if you don't have kids, and even if you do have kids, you want to be doing some extracurricular activities to make you happy.You want to be maybe making art or watching movies or going out or whatever. But when you are working a full-time job. Then working other jobs on top of it, like childcare, like cleaning and cooking and shopping and everything else you have to do. And that growing list of things that keep stacking up because you're too busy to get them done.That is very overwhelming and can lead to things like burnout.[00:06:13] Lara: Yeah, because even when it was more divided and women were taking care of more things while they were at home. If we also look back historically at what it was that they were doing, like we have a lot of stories about, you know, they kicked their kids out in the morning and said, don't come back.Still nighttime, like it's not like they were as hands-on as we're now expected to be. So on top of the fact that we're taking on all these other roles, the societal expectation of how involved you are with your children and how much you need to do to make sure that they're well rounded human beings and how many activities they need to be in.And then you need to do attachment parenting. And you need to, you need to, you need to, you need to. the expectations of what parenting looks like has increased, so we've just increased the need to do more in every part of your life without like, where's this extra time and capacity supposed to come from?[00:07:14] Rowan: And this is not just limited to women. Now that I've transitioned the social media algorithms have recognized that I am a man. So they are just pumping me full. Of male influencer content, which I have a really hard time watching most of it, but curiosity gets the better of me sometimes, and I will watch some of it just to see what it's all about.It is just as toxic on the other side, if not more sometimes, and one of the things that I have found is ridiculous. So rather than putting. Emphasis on, you also have to be a great parent. For example, you also have to make sure that you cook nice meals. No, no, no, no. For men, it's more you gotta get up early.It's rise and grind time, brother. Right? So it's like you gotta get up, you have to work out right away. You have to eat really, really clean. You have to have a really chiseled body. Take all these supplements, you know, you're lifting weights and you're running pretty much every day.and that is all before work. You know, you gotta meditate. You gotta do your stoicism. That's a really big thing with the younger guys right now, is this whole stoicism philosophy that's really made a comeback recently. but not necessarily the good parts of stoicism. 'cause I'm not, not opposed,[00:08:37] Lara: Tell me more. What do you mean? I'm not on guy TikTok.[00:08:42] Rowan: So stoicism it's, you know, you've heard the term being stoic.[00:08:45] Lara: Yeah.[00:08:46] Rowan: Right. So, Stoicism is a really, really old philosophy. There's a lot of really old philosophers, people you would know who, you know, back in, ancient Greece time, ancient, , Roman times, where, they talked a lot about.Being more logical, taking your emotions out of things, thinking logically and so there's nothing wrong with that as long as it does help to remove some emotion from a situation so that you can look at it logically, but it is being taken. To this extent of, well, like a lot of things, , this, toxicity where you shouldn't have any feelings in anything. You should be really, really strong all the time. And so it's perpetuating this, toxic masculinity that we're seeing where men should not have feelings. Men need to be the providers, men need to earn lots of money. And so this is what's coming, you know, it's no longer good enough.To have a job that pays you an okay amount. Have a partner that you're happy with, that you get along with well, who you love, , you know, maybe have children if that's what you want, and, to take care of yourself in ways that work for you. No, no, no. Now. You have to be an alpha male in charge of everything, master of your house.And I'm using that term deliberately because that is a term that often comes up very dominant, very,very in charge. And everyone in your house listens to you. it's a really gross. View , on masculinity that is resurging. So it is taking that idea that you have to be everything rather than be what works for you and accept that you can't do everything or be everything or be super fit or you know, whatever it might be.[00:10:31] Lara: Yeah, I'm sure. I was just thinking if people could see my face as you're describing this, like it is very much like, ugh agh[00:10:39] Rowan: Yeah, it's gross. It is really gross. Like just coming from the other side of things too, and looking in, I can understand why men are feeling so much pressure right now. And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, because you're also not allowed to show your feelings at the same time.You can't be emotional 'cause that's weak. You can't cry. It's like we're going back to, you can't cry because it's weak, and I am happy to have people call me on this and say, that's not entirely what it's about. Like please feel free to get in touch and let us know what you think of all of this stuff because I am very new to it.But from the experience of somebody who has lived. As a woman, and I have a lot of women friends still. I have some male friends as well. It screams run away. This is really bad. It just doesn't feel right at all.[00:11:32] Lara: So, I mean, basically what we're saying is every single human being is being set up for failure and.Having to do more than we should have the capacity to do and to always feel like we're not enough and we have to work harder and harder and do more and more and more. And that sucks.[00:11:52] Rowan: Yeah, that's what we're saying. I am noticing it I keep wondering like what started it? And I have some theories. I mean, for one, number one, capitalism, right?The more you can make people feel bad about themselves, the more that you can sell them things that you can promise will make them feel better. I think that is at the heart of a lot of these things. If you are, I'm gonna go back to the, Alpha man who is trying to get up at three 30 in the morning and get himself ready for life.If you can't sustain getting up at three thirty when you're going to bed at 11 o'clock, 'cause you're working a job and a half and you have a life outside of that. Eventually you're gonna be looking for shortcuts, and what is one of the things that an influencer can sell you? Well, they can sell you maybe a very quick breakfast, a powdered breakfast or something that you can throw in, make a smoothie or whatever, and it takes you no time at all, and that means you have half an hour that you can sleep longer.That's just one example of a lot of the ways that I think capitalism plays into this, but I think the other thing that started happening. Is we go back to school and we have done, an entire education episode that I think people should listen to. It's really a good episode that talks a lot about the faults in more conventional schooling in Western culture.But this one thing has always gotten to me and it is that, you know, a child goes to school and they come home with a report card. Their parents look over their report card and there are some things a child does well in and some things that the child does not do well in. That's normal. we're all like that.We all have strengths and we all have, I don't wanna call 'em weaknesses, but things we're not quite as strong at, perhaps.And yet in the school system. , you know, the parents will now go in, and talk to the teacher. Maybe the teacher requests, a meeting or something and it's like, well let's talk about Jacob's poor math marks.Like he's really struggling in math. He only has, a 62 in math, which is still a pass, for example, but it's on the lower end. how do we get that grade up? you know, oh, Susan's not very good in gym. Well, how do we get her to be more athletic?And we are already setting the bar to be really high for our children to excel at everything right from the start. So how does that not then become, I have to do everything later?[00:14:27] Lara: I have to do everything and I have to be really, really good at everything.[00:14:31] Rowan: Yeah.[00:14:32] Lara: Because there's a difference, right?Like there's some things that I can do that maybe I'm not great at, but if I have to be really good at everything in order to measure up, that's a lot of stress.[00:14:43] Rowan: One of the. Interviews that I watched a few years ago. It was, it was at least 10 or 15 years ago, they were having this discussion because it was becoming more of an issue.I think it was a CTV documentary, CTV being a network here in Canada. And they interviewed one of the media personalities who was an anchor. I believe I can't remember who it was now, but it was, one of the main sort of women anchors of the news.And she said, I'll never forget this. She said, women are taught that we can have everything so we can have a career and we can have family, and we can have all these other things. And that is true, but we can't necessarily have them all at once.So she had figured that out. She had figured out that in order to have a very successful career as an anchor where you have to be in the office all the time, you are working really long hours.You are constantly on your mind. You're getting emails, you're getting calls about things even when you're at home. That means that you may not be able to be a very hands-on parent. So she had learned that probably the hard way, I would assume, and that if she wanted to be a more hands-on parent, she had to take a step back from that very demanding role.But that is something that. Women are encouraged to do sometimes and sometimes not encouraged, but it's more socially acceptable for women to do that. Can you think of a time when a man has actually done that?[00:16:19] Lara: I mean, heard stories, Do I know somebody? No.[00:16:24] Rowan: No. I don't know anyone either, right?I don't know a single man who is like, , I know it does happen. Yeah. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I would say I know several women who've done this. I personally know several women who took a step back in their career. Who put the brakes on it. Who did not accept the next promotion, who did not do the next thing because their children were young and they wanted to be there for their children.I don't personally know any men who've done that, I don't think.[00:16:51] Lara: Yeah. And in fact, it's something I did both when my children were little and as my children are teenagers, which is probably a whole other conversation. we can have at some point about, if we wanna go into children. But the teen years take an awful lot of energy as well.It's not just the little ages, but certainly it's something that I did. I remember when I was pregnant with my first and my family doctor said something to the effect of. Families where at least one parent is working part-time are the ones who seem to be doing well. And when families have two parents that work full-time, it's too much.And I remember being a little bit like, I don't know, taken aback or grumbly or like, that's not true. But like have to say in retrospect, I agree. Like I don't know how some of my friends with. Two full-time working parents throughout the entire, life of their children's manage. And I think it's partially because I struggle with fatigue.So maybe I have less energy than some people to do things. But overall, I think there's a lot more going on and. Doing everything is exhausting, doing everything when you said burnout before, because stopped taking care of ourselves. We're just taking care of everything else and everyone else, and that's not really a happy life for most people.[00:18:13] Rowan: I. Have often thought that as well. So I've been really privileged to be able to work. When I did work full-time, I was working full-time from home when my children were little, which is its own set of challenges. Yeah, for sure. Also. I was the only one who would take a sick day, right? Because my spouse was working outside the home.There were more demands in terms of meetings and meeting deadlines usually than my work. So it made sense. But yeah, like whenever the kids were sick, whenever there was, you know, my children two varying degrees, had some mental health challenges when they were younger, which as I. Said on previous episodes, I have an anxiety disorder, so the apple does not fall far from the tree.. Right. I mean, these things are genetic. We know that. So, you know, my children also struggled in their own ways and someone had to be there for them as well. And that speaks a lot to the teen years. You were just Discussing there, where, there are some challenges that crop up.So It is a real challenge to have this idea that you're supposed to perform at a certain level in all of these different ways. It's a challenge when you are trying to build a career, but you can only give so much. But my friends who did work full-time, both of them, some of them did really well, like really, really well, but they also had Family support a lot of times. They had grandparents who would step in or they had, siblings who would step in, or they had, maybe like older children who could go home with the younger children after work. there was, quite often there's that extra support and that is another thing that we have really in Western culture.Poo-pooed. Is this idea of the multi-generational living situation or the multi-generational support system. When our parents get older, we don't tend to move them in with us, and they don't tend to live with us. Before that either. And we tend to put them in a retirement facilityright. And sometimes you need to do that. Like I think there's a lot of reasons to do that, especially if you have someone you know has some cognitive issues or whatever. There's Everyone's at a different place, so I'm not saying that with judgment, but I'm saying that we don't. Have that established thing that I hear a lot about in other cultures where you have these multi-generational households or you live right next to your parents or you live next door to your sister or whatever it might be, where you can get that extra support because the idea truly of two people with children working outside the home full time.Factoring in commuting, factoring in extracurricular activities, that the children might have afterwards factoring in sick days, factoring in doctor's appointments. that is going to test your resilience in a way that most people don't realize until they're in it.[00:21:14] Lara: Yeah. Living in community, I think I wish there was more of that.I think that. Sharing some of the work, right? Like, I would love and my husband makes jokes about me talking about commune that I would love to live in, but like the idea of having people close by to help with like communal , cooking or other things I think there's such opportunity to start thinking about not living in these silos anymore.Not always just doing everything alone. This is definitely a theme through a lot of our episodes about, hard work is better. I don't need to ask for help. I can do it by myself. Comes up in a lot of how we live our lives. We're doing it all by ourselves a lot of the time. The other piece is, are we going for what we want or are we following the path of successSociety has told us makes sense for us. We need to want the bigger house, the promotion to be, the executive if we can. We need to want, certain cars we need to want. A certain looking life, and a lot of people don't stop and say, Hey, do I want that? And this is something I talk about in my book, you're Not lazy because people don't ask themselves, do I want a really simple life and therefore I'm going to do things a different way because it feels like that's not choosing a simple life, it feels like failing at success.[00:22:47] Rowan: The other thing I think it's being talked about more now and I think it's important that we talk about it, is do you want children? Or is that an expectation that somebody else placed on you, your parents or the movies you watched growing up or just societal expectations, you know, your church or, whatever it might be.Right? Like there's this idea that we're all supposed to grow up, find somebody, fall in love, get married and have babies, and that is not the path. That a lot of people want to take. And as somebody with five children between me and my partner, I love my children. They are just the baseline of my joy.They are just the most amazing people in the whole world. But I wanted children. I actively chose to have them. I remember because I got pregnant at 19 with my first one. And my partner at the time and I had a big discussion about whether or not we were going to have this baby and we did choose to have the baby.When I made that decision, I made it knowing I had other options and I was very grateful to have those other options and every child that I had, I had three children adopted one and one is my stepchild. And every single child that I've brought into my life, I have made the conscious decision to do so.And it is also equally okay to not want to have children and to want a life that is different than that. And in fact, I will just say between Lara and myself, we have enough children that some of you, we've replaced some of you. So it's, it's okay. We've already done the work for you and you don't have to.And you're welcome. And if you would like to say thank you, you go right ahead and drop us a line.[00:24:35] Lara: It's true you know, I've always hated the idea that people say if you don't have children, you'll regret it later. I really, really, really, really wanted children and still found it exceptionally difficult at a lot of parts of time.So, yeah. You don't have to always go for the same cookie cutter looking life. That being said, society wants you to have children because they're afraid of not having enough people to replace the population or to. Make money to fill up the pension plans. Like, the renewal of the population.I'm like, why don't we just have less people? But the powers that be don't like that idea at all.[00:25:15] Rowan: Yeah. We're so overpopulated as it is. Also, there's this little thing that is not so popular these days called immigration and there are a lot of people who would love to come to. Countries and become citizens and work help pay those taxes and fill up those pensions, right?Like it is not our personal responsibility. To do everything. So if career is really important to you, if social outings are really important to you, if travel is really important to you, and the idea of having a child, or many children in my case, would impede that to the point where it just seems, you know.Like it just won't fit. That's okay. And good on you. And also as somebody who adopted a teenager, should you ever feel later in life, you're like, well, , I'm 45 and like, I don't want a baby but I, I would like to maybe experience that, you know, you can adopt an older child and it can be a really wonderful, fulfilling experience.And again. Cookie cutter. It's not where it's at for everybody. That's all right. And if it lowers your stress level and you get to be happier in this one beautiful life, you have Bravo.[00:26:28] Lara: Mm-hmm.Because as much as. The whole world seems to be telling you you have to do everything. You don't have to do everything.There are things that you can just choose to not do, right? You can choose to have a different looking life. You can choose to not prioritize all of the things all of the time, and society may not always make it easy to do that. Like there's certainly a lot of stuff going on, including. The need to make more money because oflike there's, so many things, right? Like understandably, with the cost of things, people have to work more. Yeah. But we get to s top and ask ourselves what we want and make sure. Again, so much of this is making sure we're not doing things because we think we should, because we think we have to, and asking ourselves if we want to, asking ourselves what the ways are that we can make life easier.How can we work with other people to make life easier? I really think that focusing on the fact that you just have to do it and it's gonna be hard, but hard is, good. Makes us unhappy, and if we can just find the little ways to find some ease and to find choice that we really want, then it's worth doing.[00:27:44] Rowan: Look, I love cooking, so for me, coming home after a long day and making myself something yummy to eat is a joy. But for a lot of people. That idea is just exhausting, right?[00:28:00] Lara: torture. Wecall that sheer torture. The idea of it is what I going to say, it might feel like to some people,[00:28:09] Rowan: right?And I'm like, oh, cutting up vegetables, you know, some onions. I mean, ironic 'cause I'm allergic to raw onion, but all of this creating this beautiful experience. I love that. So that's not an area that I'm probably going to. pay someone else to do like, but maybe for you, Lara, like you, if you could, maybe you would.Hire somebody else to batch, cook a bunch of meals for you. Like there are people who hate cleaning their home and they're like, you know what, I get this one weekend. I work all week. I'm tired when I come home, I don't have time to clean. And then Saturday morning I wake up and my place is a mess, and then I have to clean and then I can't go out and do the things I want to do, and I just want a day off.And they will hire someone that is where they will put their extra little bit of money. They'll hire someone to come in, every week or two and clean their house. Right? Like I think that mentality, I never subscribed to that when I was at home with the kids. 'cause I was like, well, I should have time to do all of this.I should be able to do all of our grocery shopping. And all of our cooking and all of our cleaning and all of the laundry and all of the yard work and this and this, and it's like, no. 'cause I just burned myself out right now. Not everybody has the funds to, pay someone else to do some of that stuff.But if you do, and the only reason you are not doing it is because you tell yourself you should be able to do it all. Do yourself a favor and figure out what it is you really don't wanna do and see if you can get someone else to do it for you.[00:29:44] Lara: have you seen the Tiffin lady on TikTok? Do you know what I'm talking about when I say that?[00:29:48] Rowan: No, no, no. I have no idea.[00:29:49] Lara: So there is a lady who lives in India in Goa, who gets a Tiffin service. So what a Tiffin service is is. You know those stack well, you may not know, but there's these stacked metal, lunch boxes.[00:30:03] Rowan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:30:04] Lara: So it's like different layers and then it's kind of clipped together.So that's the Tiffin box. And in India it's not uncommon to have a Tiffin service where whether it's every day of the week or several days of the week, they have their Tiffin meal delivered to their house So this lady has been posting her daily tiffins on TikTok, and I am like. Can't wait every day to watch what she gets as she opens it up.So there's a couple of reasons that I'm telling you this. Number one, she's apparently been getting a lot of comments about, like, so you don't cook, maybe you should cook. Like, why are you like just outsourcing all of this? But like, the cost in India for that service is like, $5 a day or something for her and her partner to eat.In my opinion, if that were available to me in my neighborhood, I would be doing it for every meal all of the time. Like, I am certainly happy to have somebody else cook me amazing food that I don't have to make, and all I need to do is wash out the containers and give them back to you. Like, absolutely, why are people trying to shame her for hiring out that service instead of doing it herself?[00:31:15] Rowan: Yeah, the judgment when you do decide to say no to something and outsource, can be immense. I say this as somebody who used to judge, because I did know some other stay-at-home parents who paid someone to come and clean, at the time, I, again, remember I had my first baby at 20 years old, so I walked into this parenting thing where I was like.I've gotta be the best parent there is because everyone's going to judge me because I'm so young. So I have to be really, really, really good at it. And I went excessively on the opposite side, so I insisted on cleaning everything myself, even when occasionally we did have money for someone else to do it.So the idea of someone else hiring out for that outsourcing that. . I judged very harshly because I would've judged myself. So a lot of times when people are judging for those things, it's because. They have an internal battle going on.[00:32:14] Lara: Absolutely.[00:32:14] Rowan: Or maybe they really love cooking and they just don't understand why you wouldn't do it.Or not. Everyone's good at cooking either, and that's okay. Like I can walk around my house and go, okay, I want to get this, I can make something outta this, this, this. Okay, great. And just whip something up. But that's a skill that I just happen to have that not everybody has. And the other thing is when you talk about cost, just staying on this food thing for a minute.We waste so much food as a society. So when you have a fridge full of fresh food that you bought with the intention to cook it all and eat it all, and half of it goes bad, it would probably be more affordable to have a tiffin lady.[00:32:57] Lara: I agree. And I will say that I Googled and I found a Tiffin service in Ottawa.It doesn't get delivered to my house. I have to go pick it up. So it's not quite as convenient. and apparently even though there are Tiffin services in Ottawa, they're not very well used. So it's not common, but like I was like, this is amazing. I am gonna have Indian food in my fridge most of the time.And I'm so happy for it.[00:33:25] Rowan: Did you Google that while we were talking?[00:33:28] Lara: No, no.[00:33:28] Rowan: Oh,you did it before. Oh, okay. Okay. I was like wow, you did it fast.[00:33:32] Lara: No, no. I have been going and picking up these Tiffins, the last couple of weeks. So I'm going like once a week, maybe twice a week to pick something up.and I have multiple people in my family who really enjoy Indian food. And so it's been lovely and I have done other things like this from like, I used to do the boxes where you cook the food, that was one way that I didn't waste food because for whatever reason, if we received it that way, we made it and then there wasn't all these extra ingredients that would go bad.Otherwise I do. I get stuff that goes bad all the time. And that is not better.[00:34:08] Rowan: Yeah. I think it's really cool that you're doing that and I think people will have this question and I almost asked it and then I decided not to ask it. I was going to ask, what are you gonna do with all your spare time when you're not cooking?because immediately in a capitalist society I'm like, oh, that's so that you can spend more time working or cleaning or whatever. But no. No, it is also totally cool and okay to outsource something and use that time to rest and do something you want to do. Lemme say that again. Lemme say that again.It is okay. In fact, it is more than okay to take that time to rest and do something you want to do[00:34:53] Lara: because resting isn't lazy.[00:34:55] Rowan: Resting isn't lazy. You're really big on that, and I love you for it because you will remind me of that. I think at least once or twice a month.[00:35:07] Lara: Yeah.[00:35:07] Rowan: Yeah, and I mean, I might get to the point where, you know, I'm opening this, coffee shop and wine bar with my partner and we are going to be swamped because we're not hiring right away. We're gonna hire a few weeks or months in, right? So we're gonna be working seven days a week. The, wine bar part won't be open every evening.So we're gonna, have some days when we're home in the evening, but we're gonna be exhausted. And as much as we both love to cook. That is probably not going to be something we're gonna wanna do very often For a while. We're gonna be really, really tired and at that point I might be looking for my own Tiffin lady.[00:35:44] Lara: I think you should. I think you should.[00:35:46] Rowan: Yeah. 'cause I love Indian food too, and my wife, as soon as you said it, I'm like, that's what I need to do after this, episode. I need to go and get some Indian food,[00:35:54] Lara: Google tiffin service.[00:35:57] Rowan: Mm.[00:35:57] Lara: My understanding is that they're easier to find than most people think.Just 'cause we haven't heard of them doesn't mean they aren't there. But again, this is all the same thing. It's all around. You don't have to do everything. You get to choose what your priorities are. At a certain time in your life. And if right now it's work and that's good with you, but then you're going to say, you know what, I'm gonna hire out for food.If you're going to do it in different ways, because you can't afford to hire it out, but like, just think about what your options are without thinking. You have to do everything to measure up.[00:36:31] Rowan: Stop comparing yourself to others too, . we've said this before, but it needs repeating. I think over and over and over.Most of the time when we are comparing ourselves, we are comparing ourselves to whether we know people in real life or not, or comparing ourselves to what we see them share online. Because most of our social interactions right now are on the internet, on social media apps, and that is a curated version.No matter how honest the person is, no matter what's going on in their lives, there are things they're not talking about. They are sharing highlights. They might be good highlights, they might be bad highlights, but they're sharing highlights of their lives and you're missing all of the in-between. So somebody might be like, you know, stayed up all night and, you know, batch cooked, all my meals for the next week, which is a great idea, by the way, if you have the energy and inclination to do it.And then you start thinking, well, you know, this person has a really demanding job and they have children and they have a dog and they have, you know, a parent with dementia and they still managed. To stay up and do all this batch cooking, or they still manage to get to the gym every day or whatever it might be.You might not be, and in fact, I would argue, are probably not seeing the level of overwhelm that person is experiencing and is just doing their best to try and manage it. So. you are seeing, maybe let's go with the gym thing. You're seeing someone who goes to the gym every day because they really want to be fit and , they wanna show off their toned body or whatever it might be.What you might not be seeing is that that is how they're managing their anxiety, or that is the one little bit of time that they're carving out for themselves every day and they just wanna fall apart. Or they cry in the parking lot like you don't know. So. Don't assume that everybody else is doing better than you are, and you have to keep stepping up.[00:38:25] Lara: Also, remember that. Just because you see different people doing different things doesn't mean you need to do all the things. So if you see somebody going to the gym every single day and you see somebody else doing batch cooking or cooking from scratch all the day, and somebody else taking their kids to five different activities in a week and somebody else going on, you know, great vacations, we have a tendency to think that we should do all of those things.And like that's not. Possible you know, or it's not easy in a way that would make most people happy, right? So we're not saying, oh, okay, well, , the reason that I'm not going to the gym every day is because I'm cooking from scratch all the time, and I'm doing this other thing. You think I need to now measure up to all of these things.And so it's really about understanding your capacity, asking yourself what's important to you, what your priorities are, and just knowing. Everything isn't the goal.[00:39:21] Rowan: Great advice. this has been a really good discussion and a reminder to me that I don't have to run the seven errands I have on my list today.Maybe I can do three of them. And rest.[00:39:35] Lara: Perfect, because Resting isn't lazy.[00:39:40] Rowan: Thanks for joining us today and don't forget to send us your comments, send us your questions. We love to hear from you. We really, really do. It's great to see so many people are subscribing and downloading this podcast. It's really starting to take off and whatever we can do to make this a pleasurable and meaningful.Few minutes of your time every week is what, oh, that sounds like people pleasing. But listen, whatever we can do within our boundaries to make that a wonderful experience for you, we want to know. So thank you.[00:40:16] Lara: Have a great week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

I (Lara here today) was recently talking to a friend about how it often feels like everyone has life more together than we do. That everyone is happier, less stressed, and hitting goal after goal. The truth of the matter is that we are never seeing the full picture, that a lot more people are out there struggling than you think. That’s why I think conversations like the one Rowan and I had in today’s episode are so important. We want you to remember that you’re not alone, you deserve to get help and support, and that asking for help is NOT weak.Related episodes People PleasingSaying noWant more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Transcripts(please note: we do not carefully edit these transcripts and there might be errors)00:00:00] Lara: we don't need to do what was always done just because that was what was always done.We get to stop and say, Hey, you know what would be better? Taking care of ourselves, you know, what would be better? Taking advantage of things when it comes to like the world of medicine, Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara.[00:00:38] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.[00:00:40] Lara: And today we're gonna start off with a little bit of a discussion about how we always have a discussion before we start recording. So we get on a call and theoretically we're gonna start recording and then it takes at least half an hour 'cause we have things to say.[00:00:56] Rowan: Yeah, at least, we're always catching up first.[00:00:58] Lara: And we decide from our list of topics what we're gonna talk about. And so today we picked our topic and I said, Hey Rowan, do you want to introduce the topic?[00:01:11] Rowan: And I said, uh, yeah. Okay.[00:01:15] Lara: Yeah. And then I said, Hey, did you say yes when you meant no?[00:01:21] Rowan: AndI said, uh, yeah, I did.[00:01:25] Lara: Yeah, you did. And uh, gosh, what I do like is that I now have started noticing when I do that and when other people do it, and I appreciate when people call me out on it. So hopefully you appreciate it when I called you out on it.[00:01:41] Rowan: Oh yeah, I did because like I didn't want to intro this topic and, once we say what the topic is and why it's relevant right now, I think people will understand.But yeah, I just, I'm not in a place to take lead on it this week.[00:01:56] Lara: Yeah. But we so often say yes because we think somebody wants us to do a thing. It's got a bit of a people pleasing. Nature to it, or I should do it. And so yeah, we thought we'd mention that because it's a little bit of a thing. I hope everybody starts to notice.Like you don't have to say yes just because somebody asked you to do something. In fact, I would say the other person doesn't even always expect you to say yes, but sometimes you think they do and therefore you have to say yes. And so taking a little bit of that away and just being like. No.[00:02:32] Rowan: I like the way you said it too.No,no, no, no. Right. There's this idea, these habits are so ingrained in us, right? These people pleasing habits. And there's this idea that's like, well, I don't wanna let you down and I was running through my head. I'm like, how many have I introduced versus, how many have you introduced the topic of it?Like, oh, okay. I'll just, yeah. Just say yes, yes, yes, I will do it. Yes. And it's nice. I think it shows honestly, not experts in a lot of the topics that we're talking about. And even if we were experts also often become experts in a topic because they have lived experience in that topic.I know a lot about people pleasing, and I will tell you that most of the time I am quite good at setting boundaries these days, but I do fall into that. What if I let somebody down mentality and I did today. So yeah. Thank you for calling me out on[00:03:33] Lara: that. No problem. Uh. We all do it. I think we all do it.So it's just a good reminder. You don't have to say yes all the time. And I think again, that the expectation isn't even always that somebody needs you to say yes when they ask you a question, but I think most of the time people believe it is. And I often like to remind people like it was just a question.[00:03:56] Rowan: That's right. It is just a question.[00:03:58] Lara: so hi. I'm gonna introduce the topic today, not Rowan. and we're gonna talk about the difference between mental health and physical health and the kinds of help you can get with those, whether it's medication, I think it also follows through to other kinds of therapies you might get, but that they don't always feel the same and it can feel harder.To ask for help to go get help, to start receiving help when it's on the side of mental health[00:04:28] Rowan: in a very big way.[00:04:31] Lara: So we're gonna talk about that a little bit because Rowan and I both believe that. In a like logic in our heads kind of way that it shouldn't be different and that we should all go and ask for the kind of help we need when we need it, and we deserve it.And there's nothing to worry about. But in the sort of heart of the matter, in the sort of deep recesses of our brains of the matter, it can feel different and it can mean that we behave. Differently than what we would logically say to our friend in that kind of a situation.[00:05:03] Rowan: I'm gonna take you on a little story journey.Last week I called Lara. Mm-hmm. And, you invited me to call you while you were driving running errands and I was saying I'm really not. Okay. I'm having a really hard time right now, so I'm going through a lot of stressors that I won't get into, but there's a ton. I have mentioned that I'm opening a business.There's a whole bunch of other stuff going on in my life too, and I had had a discussion. With my doctor a month or two ago about starting back on my anti-anxiety meds. I have generalized anxiety disorder. I also have health anxiety disorder, also known as illness anxiety disorder, also known as hypochondria.That was his former term. Basically, the fear that there's something wrong with me health wise all the time, and when stress gets really, really. Bad in my life, my brain will obsess. Very much on physical health issues, whether real or imagined, and blow them up and make them into these really big things where it's like, oh, I'm dying, right?Mm-hmm. Like, oh, my stomach hurts. It is stomach cancer. Oh, I have a headache. I have a brain tumor. Like all of these, it, it can never be something simple. It's always something that's really, really. Bad. Mm-hmm. And I will just,spiral. I'll spiral for days and days and days.It's a horrible affliction, honestly. And I know having talked to other people who have it, it can feel very much like a prison in your head. So why didn't I start those meds right away? I will get into that in a little while, but I will say that when I talked to you, Lara,[00:06:49] Lara: mm-hmm.[00:06:49] Rowan: That conversation was what convinced me.I think when I was like crying to you on the phone. I really wasn't well, and you are so kind and gentle, and you gave me the advice that I would've given to my friend. I would've told you in that same situation, it is okay to go back on those meds and you don't need to struggle like this. And that ultimately led me to today where thankfully this particular med I tend to take to really well.And within a few days I start to feel better. And so it's been about a week now and I do already feel a lot calmer and a lot happier. So I wanted to talk about this today. Because I think I'm not alone. In fact, I know I'm not alone because I shared this quite candidly online, on my social media feeds and the amount of people who reached out either privately or commented and said, thank you.I decided to go back on my meds too after reading this, or I've had a similar thing happen, or I'm really wrestling with this. There were so many, I can't keep track. So this is a problem. We are not taking our mental health. I don't wanna say as seriously, but we're not taking care of ourselves as a society mental health wise as much as we deal with other physical ailments.[00:08:07] Lara: I think that what it comes down to, and I don't know if it's a moral failing, we're afraid of, but like there's something about our mental health where we believe, unlike physically, that we have the control to change it. Right? So it's okay, I'm gonna work through it. It's okay. I don't need this because if I just insert list of things, I'll have it under control.I won't need it. And I will say that during our conversation. You are the one who said. That meds could be the solution, right? Like I didn't say, Hey Rowan, why don't you take meds? Right? Like, because like that's not, yeah, right? when I asked you what you thought would probably help the most, you went directly to probably taking my meds, but acknowledging that there was a really big resistance to doing that.And I think that's the part, it's the resistance. why do we resist it? What is it that we feel? Is the block because there are a lot of other medications that if our doctor suggested we take them, we would do it. I think blood pressure is one we've talked about. That being said, I do know people who are like, I need to exercise more.I need to change my diet. I have to stay off blood pressure medication as much as possible. So I do think it goes, in different ways for different kinds of, I don't know if ailment is the right word. But there is resistance to certain things, even when we really believe we need that thing.[00:09:32] Rowan: Yeah. I think a lot of it for mental health anyway, comes down to this idea of being strong versus being weak.[00:09:42] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:09:43] Rowan: And if you need help to feel better emotionally. Then you are not strong enough. That is at the heart of a lot of this stuff. And when we were growing up, so a lot of the older generations too, these types of drugs were not.Available. SSRIs have been around, for example, and that's the SSRIs are a common group of drugs that are used to treat things like depression and anxiety. Most people, I would say that are on, medication still today are taking SSRIs, but there are a whole bunch of different family groups out there. but even SSRIs, which are some of the older ones, the first time I was ever introduced to them was the nineties.And, it was one of the earlier ones and it had stronger side effects, and it left me. Within a few months not feeling so great on them, and I ended up going off them, which I think was a decision I shouldn't have made back then. But unlike my blood pressure medication, so when I found out I have high blood pressure, About a year or so ago, my doctor sent me home to try a few diet modifications. I already exercised a lot. I did everything by the book. I cut back salt. I cut back. Processed food, I exercised even more. I meditated. I did all these different things and I went back in and my blood pressure was slightly lower.Not within safe levels. Mm-hmm. And he said, Rowan, I think this is where we talk about medication. And I was like, okay, I have done everything I can genetically. I am just predisposed to high blood pressure, like millions and millions of other people. I will take these meds. He said, Rowan, you'll be on these meds probably for the rest of your life.And I said, yep, that's okay. And I just started taking them and that was that. And then my blood pressure went down and I don't really think about it. I just take a little pill every day. Very different situation with a diagnosed anxiety disorder.[00:11:44] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:11:45] Rowan: Where I have gone off these meds, which work really well for me, by the way, several times I think I've gone off them three times and every time.Things get worse. you know, I was fine this time. I talked to my doctor, talked to my therapist a few months ago, and they were like, yeah, this seems like a good time. Things are pretty stable. I said, great. I'm gonna stop taking them. Stop taking them. Still felt great. And then. The proverbial s**t hit the fan and my life blew up in all these different ways.It was a lot of stress, and so maybe for someone without an anxiety disorder, they still could have pushed through that with all the things I was doing. Therapy, meditation, exercise, diet. sleep, I mean, I had it all covered, supplements, everything. Not me. I was a mess. I just started to spiral and every week was worse than the last week and I still wouldn't go back on my meds, and it really took getting so bad that I started to think, I don't want to be here anymore.This is torture in my brain. That's when I realized I had to go back on them, and I'm not proud of this. Because I am actually a mental health advocate, I really, really push for people to feel good and not feel shame around medication and not feel like they are less than for having to take this medication.But I also still got all of that messaging and it is all in my head, and when I'm not, well, I don't think straight, which makes it even worse.[00:13:18] Lara: I think it's really important for us to have this conversation because there comes a time where people, in your audience, 'cause you have a fairly large audience, I have an audience as well, and they start to get a picture that we have everything under control.Life is great, everything is, rainbows and unicorns and the thing is. things still come up even when you figured stuff out. Like it's a good idea to be on medication as an example, and then, you know, we can talk ourselves into, but maybe it's not a good thing. Maybe I shouldn't be on it.Maybe I shouldn't go back on it. Like we can come back to the same kind of stuff. and just because we know a thing. Doesn't mean we feel a thing, doesn't mean that our brains let us remember a thing in the moment of crisis. And so talking about this I think is really important so that people don't think, oh, am I in this situation again? Why do I suck for like not understanding the thing that I already figured out before? And it's because we cycle through things and that's totally normal.[00:14:20] Rowan: Yeah, it's hard for me to admit this stuff out loud sometimes I have a hard time talking about health anxiety, for example, because I know logically it doesn't make sense.I know logically if I get a pain in my body, I just have a pain in my body probably. And then if something is really wrong, I'm gonna know because I'm gonna have a lot of symptoms that point in that direction usually. So. To think to myself, oh, I woke up with a slight headache. That must be a brain tumor and get scared about it all day long.That doesn't make sense. And I a logical person. I really am. So you know, when you're not well, when your brain is not well, it's going to tell you stories and. It can be really hard to open up about that. Like I know after this I'm going to have what Dr. Brene Brown calls a vulnerability hangover.Mm-hmm.Because I have just shared a whole bunch of things that I fear will have people judge me at the same time. I also really know how important it is to hear these stories, because sometimes you need to hear from someone that. Maybe up until now you think has it more together than you realized and is also struggling.All those times in the last few months that I have been open on social media about opening a business and how excited I am, all of that is true and about, you know, being in a partnership and being in love and how excited I am, all of that is true. But also every single day I was struggling and don't believe in curating my life online to look perfect and I don't think that it's going to help, someone else who needs to see that vulnerability.[00:16:08] Lara: Yeah. I think that, you know, a lot of the time, a lot of the advice I even see about like sharing your story online is you don't really wanna share. The mess when you're in the middle of the mess. Like you can share it in some stages, but not all of it, right? Like, and not all of it needs to be public. Not all of it is even about you, right?Like we have stuff that's going on. So, for me, I've been on medication a few times over the years and the very first time I went on medication, I was about, 35. And to that point, I had had some sort of really low periods, but it felt kind of like a badge of honor that I had never had to go on meds.I had survived without the meds until that point, which, in retrospect, I don't know why that was the case. but then it was when my twins were toddlers, so I think they were about like two and a half They. Still didn't sleep very well. the thing with twins that makes it more than twice as hard is that like they can go in two different directions.It's not like you're looking at two kids and managing them like in the same place. Like if they go in two different directions and you're one person. you're like, I don't know what to do right now. Right? Like I only have one me. And so I was getting more and more and more stressed out and there was a day where I had like, I was basically lying on the floor crying and I called my emergency people and my husband and some family and I was like, somebody needs to come home.I am not okay. And it was in that moment I decided I need to talk to my doctor, and I got on meds and things got better. But it took like a really big crash out for me to be willing to do that. And it's because there is that part that feels like, oh no, I shouldn't need this. I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine.It's okay. I'm fine. And that is where this whole like, it's okay to ask for help. And I know that the times in my life where I've gone on medication, there have been external things that made life harder. Toddler twins was really difficult. I still also had a 5-year-old and that's what pushed me over to too much.And then I went back on medication, last year I guess, because again, I have a whole bunch of stuff going on in my family. Right. A whole bunch of external factors that made it so that I wasn't. Doing okay anymore. And so I was like, okay, it's time to go back on medication. And knowing that that's true, right?Like it, it really helps me to remember like, okay, this is not. Just why am I not okay? Like, all these things are happening. It's like just a little too much on me. I can't do it by myself. But my resistance to medication is, and you mentioned it a little bit, I have it, in a slightly different way, which is I get a lot of side effects from almost every medication, so I know that now I am taking on side effects.I don't have a med I can go back to and. Consistently be like, once I get through these side effects, I'll be okay. Like there's always some kind of crap. It's like trying some new medication. So that is a part for me, and I think a lot of people deal with the side effects with medications, and I wish it was simpler for people to figure out which one would work for them, but I think that the external parts when it really is difficult because something's going on, not that you can't need them without that, Helped me be okay with it. And I think we just need to acknowledge sometimes things are just a bit too much, and that's because we're human beings.[00:19:34] Rowan: sometimes things are a bit too much, and that's part of the reason I went back on meds and as you just spoke to a little bit there, sometimes we have brains that have an imbalance.And have always had an imbalance. I am quite sure that I have had an anxiety disorder since I was a child, but I was born in 1976, so we were not diagnosing children with anxiety disorders back then. No, not usually. Not unless something was really, really extreme. I kept a lot of this to myself. I wrote in my last book, one sunny afternoon that I used to have.I didn't know they were panic attacks. I had no idea. But I used to have these panic attacks from the age of maybe four or five years old. And it was like the whole world would recede into this little tunnel. I'd get this tunnel vision and sometimes I would forget who I was and where I was.I would completely dissociate, but I never told anyone 'cause it was so scary, I didn't wanna talk about it. So if I've had this my entire life. And it has manifested in various ways. I've had OCD like behaviors in my twenties and thirties. I had health anxiety in my thirties and forties. Like it's always manifested in these different ways.My brain just doesn't function well without something to help it process that serotonin. Right. And that's not a shameful thing. There are people who are born with heart defects. There are people who develop type one diabetes, you know, juvenile diabetes when they're eight years old.I mean, there's all these different things that happen, but for whatever reason, we are still to this day telling ourselves that that means. That we should just tough it out , and you have a lot of influencers right now, and I'm seeing them, a lot of health influencers who are saying things like, if you just do all these things, you can go right off your medication and you'll be fine.And that is a very dangerous thing to be saying to people as opposed to saying. Yes. There are some situations where if you do things outside of medication, you don't need medication. that is true. It's kind of like diabetes management. There are people not with type one, to my understanding, I'm not, a doctor doesn't wanna say this.Mm-hmm.you know, right off the bat. But there are people who, maybe have type two diabetes who are able to manage it without. Insulin, regular insulin, right? That does happen sometimes, but not always. And if you need insulin, that's not a failure. And it is the same. Same thing with any kind of mental health med.I think the other thing that I've noticed is older generations, belittling younger generations, millennials, gen Z, For being too soft. I don't know if you've seen that, Lara, but that has happened a lot where like, oh, they can't handle anything. Well, I think we should touch on that a little bit because I don't think that they can't handle anything.I think that they just know that they don't have to struggle.[00:22:34] Lara: Yeah. They actually are in touch with their feelings. And some of the things when the older generation, say the younger one is too soft, is simply that they have boundaries and they don't wanna do more than they're capable of doing.And that's not the same thing.[00:22:53] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. That. Like, you're hearing about how younger millennials are really reshaping the workforce right now because they're refusing to work over time for free. Mm-hmm. They're refusing to answer emails at 11:00 PM they're refusing to go in on weekends unless they absolutely have to.As they should, because life is about balance, and just because we all did that, because that was what you had to do, doesn't mean that they should be doing that. Like I think we've learned that that type of stuff leads to burnout. That type of stuff leads to depression and anxiety and all kinds of problems, so they're not too soft.For setting those boundaries or for knowing when things get rough that they can go to their doctor and get some prescription help for that. They are just not wanting to suffer the way that we suffered. When you don't need to suffer like that,[00:23:51] Lara: there's the whole, live to work or work to live. And I think, The older we are, the more we were trying to want to work hard all the time to want to hustle. like I would find myself years ago checking my email on vacation and being like, I would never want to not check it on vacation. It's not that I can't, do the thing I really want to do because somebody's telling me to.I want to do it and. If you talk yourself into believing that that's what you want and that's the right thing, then it feels foreign to you when you see people not doing it. But a lot of younger people are saying like, I don't live to work. Right? Like, it's not my, goal to be alive so I can work. I wanna work so I have enough money to live.Refreshing. Different way to think about it and like, I love, this is the second time in this show. I didn't mention it the first time yet, but that I've thought about how people like to talk about the old ways and how great they were. Before we had all these medications or you know.When people really understood the value of hard work, but like we have come far enough in our society where we have the privilege of having medications, we have the privilege of seeing that we don't have to work the fields. Every day, all day in order to do certain things. Like there's certain things that are different and we don't need to do what was always done just because that was what was always done.We get to stop and say, Hey, you know what would be better? Taking care of ourselves, you know, what would be better? Taking advantage of things when it comes to like the world of medicine, the amount of times I've heard people going like, just eat an all natural. unprocessed diet and you'll be fine.I was like, no, I would've been dead at like six if I had been born hundreds of years ago, like from not having antibiotics, like I got a lot of infections as a kid, right? Like there's certain things where we need to acknowledge medication has helped us, vaccines have helped us. Having access to care has helped us So I've gone into a couple of different directions here, but I'm just gonna let you talk now 'cause I've swirled myself around a bunch of things. Oh[00:26:05] Rowan: no. But they're all, important things. I know someone, in sort of that health sphere, having been a part of it. Self, by the way, years and years ago, is gonna listen to this podcast and be like, these two are being sponsored by Big Pharma.Right. Like, I mean, I know that's going to happen. As, somebody who is trans. I've been accused of getting big pharma bucks for somehow talking about being trans. it's wild. It's a wild, wild way of thinking. We are not being sponsored by anybody. No, no, no. Ido think on the flip side of setting all those boundaries, something that I really, really, really wanna speak to as a person who's lived almost 50 years now, is that the world.Itself is incredibly stressful in a way that it hasn't been in my lifetime. There are a lot of. Big stressors right now. There's the environment, there's the cost of living. There is a housing crisis that is hitting all kinds of countries around the world, including ours in Canada. There are hostile governments, I don't need to name them, I don't think, but there's one just south of us that is making life very, very scary and unpredictable for a lot of people, even if you don't live in that country.[00:27:23] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:27:24] Rowan: We just never know from day to day what's going to happen. Right. So. On top of everything else going on, in our personal lives, there is a baseline anxiety and overwhelm that a lot of us are experiencing, and we might have made that our new normal. Right now, it's like, okay, because humans are adaptable, we go, oh, so this is where we're at.Okay. I, I can make peace with that. All right, well, I'll just, I still have to live. I still have to go to work. You know, I still have to do this, but like. It is not a good time to be. Okay. In your head, and if you are okay in your head right now, I'm really happy for you. Mm-hmm. Like I'm truly, truly happy for you.Most of the people I talk to in my circles are not doing okay, and a lot of people have. Gone back on meds or stepped up their meds or started therapy because, you know, we've talked a lot about meds, but there are all different kinds of ways to take care of your mental health. I'm a big fan of all of them.I also have a wonderful therapist who I see from time to time still. I do think there are definitely some ways to manage, but we are in a. I don't wanna say it's a crisis, but it feels kind of like a crisis, doesn't it? There's a lot happening right now. The world is changing in a way that is so fast and so unpredictable.So if you are not okay, if you are not okay right now, it is understandable. That's what I want to say.[00:28:51] Lara: Yeah. There's a lot going on. I think the last couple of decades been particularly good. there have certainly been really bad ones many times in the history of human beings, but the last few decades have not been some of them.And now we're getting back into some of the stuff that I think a lot of us thought we would never get back to. A lot of us were like, that's done, we're done with that kind of stuff. And now it's like. What do you mean? It can just happen again? What do you mean it can get bad again? Like, this is not a thing that we ever entertained, right?Like, it's not like we were trying to be in denial. Like we never entertained the idea. Like it was never something that ever came up. What if everything falls apart again? I was like more inclined to think, I mean, I'm sort of joking, but maybe not, but like the whole, you know, apocalyptic like.Aliens invading, who knows, right? Like, but you're like, oh, something with the environment, something going wrong that way, like is more likely than what's happening right now. Like this never was something that I considered and. Now we're here and it's stressful. Of course it's stressful. and like I hate the argument, like it's not even happening to you.Yes, it's happening to the entire world. There is nobody on the earth that isn't somehow impacted by the change in the actual environmental climate and political climate. Were all impacted in some way.[00:30:18] Rowan: Yeah. Every single person, whether you turn the news on or not, well, I turn the news on why I sound really old now.I don't even turn the news on. I read the news, or I watch the news on an app, but like, regardless, I, I'm not turning the news on anymore, but like whether or not you're paying attention. Or not. This is permeating everybody's life to some extent. It is stressful. It might be our new normal right now, and there's a certain level of acceptance I think that we have to have that there are things beyond our control.most of us in the world are not in a position as an individual. To change what's happening. We can all work together and that's a whole other episode. As an activist, I could go into that, but as a human being, just trying to survive in this day and age, there isn't a whole lot I can do.So I do what I can. Also accept that it is a very stressful time and I check in on a lot of my friends. This is what I've been doing. I've been checking in on people. How are you, how are you doing? And you know, I've gotten a lot of, I'm not okay. And I really appreciate that you checked in right now and we'll have a chat because it's hard.It's really hard. I am really glad that I went on my medication again. I think that's going to be the boost that I need to get through this really stressful period of time in my life. But I'm also planning on staying on it indefinitely now. I think I have tried a few times to wean myself off when things have been better, only to find that.It's not better long term. I have a very busy life. There's a lot of people in my life. There's a lot of things that go on. My job itself, as an activist is a very stressful one at times. And it's all right that I just stay on these now until whenever, you know, maybe forever.[00:32:14] Lara: Yeah. And it doesn't make you a lesser person.It doesn't make you a weaker person. Knowing like everything down to the fact that you and I had a conversation and you were willing to say, I'm not okay. Right? Like all of these things are some steps that people struggle with. So that's what I really hope. Again, like whenever most of these conversations.I hope that having the conversation talking about these things lets people understand and that it normalizes a little bit more how common it is, how different people are feeling that it's not always easy and that it's okay to ask for help. Right, that you don't have to do things alone. That you are not a better person or a more impressive person if you figured out how to feel better without asking for help.And I really believe, that asking for help is just a great way to sort of hack life, right? Like. Use the people and the resources around you to make life easier. Don't feel like you have to do it alone, like it's not weak. I think it's smart.[00:33:23] Rowan: I think it is too. I think that actually shows a lot of strength to be able to say, I'm gonna try and internalize this as I say it.Okay. So like mm-hmm. This is something I would say to anyone listening, and I would mean it with my whole chest, by the way, everything I'm saying, if I said it to you. I would mean it. I don't always internalize it. It is a strength of character. It is a strength, is a resilience to be able to understand that we are not.Fully independent human beings and that we exist in a society for a reason. We are communal and there are people that we can go to to get help with certain things that we ourselves cannot fix. So me going to my doctor and getting that medication, me reaching out to my lovely co-host and. Saying I'm not okay and I need to go back on my medication and talking that through, that was a strength that shows incredible resilience and frankly, one day hopefully I'll be very proud of myself for doing it.[00:34:31] Lara: Mm-hmm. I'm very proud of you and I hope that anybody else, if you have somebody that you can reach out to, if you're feeling not okay, please do it. People love to help. People love to help when they can. Use your resources, use your people. Don't feel like you have to do everything by yourself ' cause you're amazing and nothing takes away from that.[00:34:56] Rowan: I just wanna end it there because that was beautiful[00:34:59] Lara: and let's end it there. Thank you everyone.[00:35:02] Rowan: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Pals, we’re stoked to bring you this interview with the incredible activist and stellar human Stevie Bees! If you don’t know who they are, you’re going to enjoy getting to know them (we have links to their various sites in the show notes). Stevie joins us to talk about pushing back against the gender binary and being true to oneself. We also discuss allyship and what it means to show up for people. What happens if we make a mistake? And on the other side of things, what happens when we expect perfection from our allies?It’s a wholesome, informative, friendly conversation we hope you’ll love as much as we did. AND Stevie said they’d be happy to join us for another episode, so if you have questions or topics you’d like us to delve into, let us know.Links to StevieStevie’s websiteStevie’s link treeStevie’s FacebookStevie’s Facebook GroupWant more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Transcript(please note, we do not edit these carefully so there could be some errors)00:00:00] Stevie: autism is a spectrum. Sexuality is a spectrum. gender is a spectrum. Allyship is a spectrum too.And as long as we are going the same direction, they're safe for you as long as people are.Still committed to learning, and growing from that. Welcome to another episode of Unboxing It. I am Rowan.[00:00:44] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:45] Rowan: And we have a guest today.[00:00:46] Stevie: I'm Stevie.[00:00:48] Rowan: Yes, Stevie. Yes. We're so excited to have Stevie. We've been talking about having you on our show since like day one, I think. So thank you so much for being here today. I think it's gonna be a great conversation.So, I am going to tell you a little bit about Stevie, but mostly I want them to tell you about themself because I think, that is way more interesting. But Stevie Brocksom is an active community member, artist, author, queer and trans activist. A gender doula and oh boy, I cannot wait to get to what a gender doula is.I think that's gonna be fascinating for people. They see clients in the community to support them with social, legal, and medical transition. there's a lot that you do. Stevie, I wanna ask you so much about, so many things you do, you make. Shirts, you make stickers, you help the community. you have a scholarship program.you do so much. But most importantly here it says, Stevie is passionate about equity for transgender people in all marginalized communities, especially with regards to reproductive justice. And when you're not busy with your advocacy work, you can be found doing art or spending time with your kiddos and husband.So welcome, Stevie.[00:02:05] Stevie: Thank you. It's always interesting to hear when someone else reads it off. 'cause it's like, oh yeah, I do a lot of stuff.[00:02:12] Rowan: You are a very busy human being.[00:02:14] Stevie: Uh, you don't even knowthe half of it.[00:02:19] Rowan: So let's start with. A little bit about why we wanted to have you on. I'm just gonna touch on that. We can come back to it after. But one of the things that we do on this podcast, the front and center thing that we do on this podcast is we try really hard to challenge societal norms and expectations because a lot of us mean, all of us really in.Various cultures around the world, but right now we're talking about, you know, Western culture. We grow up with these ideas, these imprints of who we're supposed to be and how we are supposed to behave. And somehow this is supposed to be what leads us to contentment and success. And as we know, that is not always the case.as somebody with a non-binary child and as somebody who for a while. When I realized I was not cisgender, did identify as non-binary before I figured out that I'm just a stinky boy on the inside. I think non-binary people are of particular importance when it comes to understanding gender constructs.So I thought of anyone I know, Stevie, you would be the best suited to talk to us about this, but. Before we get into that, I wanna know a little bit about you. Like what are some of your favorite things to do in life?[00:03:37] Stevie: wow. Okay. my favorite things to do, honestly, I just follow my kids' lead.I've got two kiddos, one just turned seven and the other one's four. And, they don't have those societal norms ingrained yet, so I just follow their lead all of us are grownups trying to figure out what our inner child is doing to heal and things like that. So, like I said, I just, follow their lead.I wanna see where they're going, what they're doing. they're challenging their own gender norms and it's fascinating to watch when you don't have someone of an oppressive view of the world who's like, you know, steering you. so I've got one kiddo that. Half the days as a girl and half the days as a boy and is always wearing a tiara or a tutu and you know, like I just let them be because, you know, they're figuring it out.my favorite things to do though, like as a human, like, I don't know. I like to follow the dopamine. That's what all A DHD people do, right? Like.[00:04:37] Lara: It changes all the time, right? Yeah. Like you can't have just one thing. Whatever happens to excite me that day, Rowan,[00:04:44] Stevie: there's like a zillion hyper fixations shoved under this desk.I've got like embroidery, I've got stamp making, I've got watercolor, which I am never good at, but always enjoy doing. There's always something. I have like a zillion journals that have like two pages filled out and you know, who doesn't?[00:05:03] Lara: I don't know. Now I think maybe we're the same person now.[00:05:05] Stevie: Right?[00:05:07] Rowan: That's amazing. you've given your children the freedom to just figure out who they are, which in my opinion is a gift because a lot of us were. Told who we were and sometimes that fit and sometimes that didn't fit. I would argue most of the time it doesn't fit. It might fit in terms of gender or gender role for the person, but it might not fit in other ways.You know, you have people who are sort of really pushed to go to university and they want to do a trade. You have, people who are, really pushed to do sports and want to do art, right? Like there's all these different ways that parents try to interject and instill this sense of identity.And for you growing up, were you told you were a certain way and if so, like how did that affect you?[00:05:58] Stevie: I wasn't told. It was never spoken, but there was expectations and. I hate expectations. because like you get yourself set on something and you know when it doesn't go a certain way, there's like actually an entire like cycle of grief that you go through when something doesn't go to expectations.It's actually something that I really struggle with as someone who's autistic and has the PDA profile, I get something stuck in my head and, when anything goes off the track. There's like a whole period where I'm like thrown off. And, I think that's what happened as a kid for me because like there was expectations of me, you know, everybody saw that I was doing really well in school.Like I was your classic autistic afab, masking through life. Doing well in school and you know, social but didn't really fit kind of thing. I see you nodding because like, I know everybody's had this experience or like, not everybody, but there's a bunch of us where. These are the expectations of you.And you think you're gonna go off to university and do something like nursing or teaching or something like that. And then, you find a point where you're like, ah, screw the expectations. I'm gonna do whatever the heck I wanna do. , I always say f**k the expectations. 'cause it turns out that didn't do any of those things. I am not a teacher. I didn't go into nursing.I didn't even go to university. I went to college. and I think that, those people that had those expectations of me went through their own grieving process. and really struggle, especially like when I came out as a non-binary person. you know, I was always told growing up that like, we're gonna love you no matter what.We will always be there for you. And I think that they were prepared for me to be gay or lesbian. They were prepared for that. They weren't prepared for trans. And even if I had come out completely as a trans man and completely transitioned, they probably would've been comfortable with that too.They could have learned to adapt to that. But non-binary, where it's such an uncomfortable topic for most people. 'cause you don't know what to expect. It's very hard to have expectations of a non-binary person. They can't see a future, they can't figure out, like, there's no puzzle piece where we fit exactly in.And that's the entire point. and it makes a lot of people really uncomfortable because there's no way to predict what's next and that's uncomfy.[00:08:27] Lara: I think that that's the whole, I don't understand piece, right? Like you hear that a lot.I don't understand. Insert whatever. And yeah, I agree. There are certainly things I don't understand. One of the things I've tried to get comfortable with is that I don't always need to understand, which is difficult. I think we were taught, we should be able to understand. We were taught things are supposed to be.Black and white, very binary. And so when things are like, Hmm, here we're gonna introduce all these new shades of gray, you don't understand. People are like, I don't know.[00:09:02] Stevie: think that's why so many of us are on like the neurodivergent spectrum is because like we don't see things as black and white.We don't fit societal norms. And so it's so much easier for us to be non-binary because we don't need to. Fit the mold that society has already created. There isn't a space specifically for non-binary people or autistic people. There isn't any space for us. and so here we are, millennials carving it out for ourselves and it's making people uncomfortable.It's challenging them. To think outside the lines. And I think there are a lot of like, you know, baby boomer generation who are really, really struggling with something that they haven't grown up with, they haven't, consistently had any representation or visibility. And now all of a sudden, Seemingly we're everywhere because we're carving out that space for ourselves, and it's making a lot of people really uncomfortable. And I see it, I feel the pushback because we're essentially trailblazing. we've been here forever, but we've never had that space to, color outside the lines.Right.[00:10:07] Rowan: Oh, and Stevie, you, . Are certainly putting yourself out there. I say this as somebody who puts myself out there, but , you certainly are helping to trailblaze here and one of the things that you have done is, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but in your work you have become a lot more visible than you ever expected.[00:10:31] Stevie: Yes, that's very true. I did not expect to grow to the point where I am. I get a little bit, of a high off of it. Unfortunately, like, as you know, that person chasing the dopamine. I do really struggle with the balance of self-sacrifice versus visibility. I think that's something that I'm probably always going to struggle with.It's something that I've accepted of myself and I happen to have a really good circle of people around me that are helping me walk that line. so I'm grateful for that, but definitely I did not expect to, go viral at times or, um.Be as visible as I am. I can't even go to the grocery store anymore without people being like, oh my God, you're that Stevie Bees guy from the internet. Like,[00:11:15] Rowan: yeah, yeah.[00:11:16] Stevie: Sometimes it's not that it's a bad thing. I'm super, super glad that. There is someone that's doing it. I don't always wish it was me.I wish there were more of us. but I also completely understand when I get the pushback that I get and when I take things off the chin, the way that I do, why more people don't do it.[00:11:37] Rowan: Yeah, it's exhausting. as somebody who's been doing it for a while, it is an exhausting thing. the dopamine high is over for me, my friend at this point.I do it because I know that it has an impact and that I bring something unique and just like you bring something unique, right? Bring a certain, type of. Story about transness and about self-acceptance and about, resilience to the table and that it resonates and it helps so that other people don't have to do it.But it is hard enough, I think. In today's world, in the year 2025, to be a transgender person, let alone a visible transgender person, and. You woke up one morning to find out that your really wonderful shirts, by the way, because you make amazing shirts. I'm a proud owner of one of those shirts, and Lara is as well.But you woke up one morning to find out somebody quite well known was wearing that shirt, didn't you?[00:12:40] Stevie: Yeah. So I did do that on purpose. I didn't expect that it would happen, for a while. I sold shirts just like in my close circle of people. and initially they weren't even supposed to be shirts.I made them a social media graphics because I've been on social media for a long time. and someone I was close to at the time asked for it on a shirt. And I have the capability of doing that. So I did. And when that person wore it on social media and tagged me more people wanted them, I wasn't prepared to start a business.I had a job. I was quite happy and comfortable with where I was at the time. And, I felt like I was contributing. In a good way to society. And then all of a sudden everybody wanted this shirt. So my husband and I cobbled together a website and I think we had three shirts initially. We had the, you'll have to go through me.you can't erase us and protect trans kids. those were the three initial shirts. And then pretty soon after that we also added gender affirming care saves lives. 'cause we're like, you know what? There's some pretty confronting. Statements here. We wanna give people the comfort to show their support without being as confronting.so we had this like, makeshift website. It wasn't super great. My husband does do web design, but we had to do it quickly, because people wanted it. And, we didn't have the luxury of like waiting until like everybody was. Ready. Like I didn't have that at the time. Now, like I can make people wait like two months for something if I wanted to, but at that time I, didn't wanna lose the relevance.so, we made this website and it went viral kind of locally, which. Comfy felt good, felt nice, and was enough for me. this is like around the time that TikTok was starting to grow and take off, and I noticed that a lot of these TikTok influencers had their, PO boxes in their bio.And so I started sending shirts to these PO boxes. I never included notes. I never included like who it was from. I never wanted people to, I didn't want them to do any research on it is like, if you believe in the message, you're gonna wear it. If you don't, I already know how this is gonna go.and people started wearing them and. That was really cool. and then, you know, virality happened again where like these influencers were wearing these shirts and none of them know where they're coming from, which was like the best part for me because like, I didn't want, that kind of attention.I just wanted the attention to be on the visibility of the message. and then, two years of doing this with like just sending them anonymously to influencers. I was like, okay, we're gonna try bigger fish. We're gonna try this. I have sent them to like, probably a hundred different celebrities.I've spent a lot of my own money and putting them out there and doing this. it is a tax write off, but you know, I have to make sure that I'm comfy before I can do a round of them. and I knew that David Tennant had done something like that before where he wore a pin and it went viral.so I was like, okay, we're gonna try David Tennant. I got one in each design. and I put them all in a box. And this time I decided, you know what, we're gonna put a note in. ' cause I think that that is going to give us the best shot. I had several friends, write fan mail. We included everything in this box.We included, some of our stickers, we included one of each design. We included a hoodie, and we sent it off to his PO box. And then I forgot about it. I didn't expect anything else to happen. 'cause like, that's how I've been operating forever. You just send it off and you just don't hold onto hope at all because, if you do, you get let down a lot.And then I woke up one morning to a whole bunch of orders and I didn't know where they were coming from. And then I started getting messages from people going like, look, and you know, like the rest is history. We had a silly amount of orders. it didn't stop for about two weeks. and I wasn't really able to process a lot for, quite some time.And I think it was like two weeks worth of orders where we did like $50,000 in sales, which was nuts. and it was at a time when I was already donating $5 per shirt to the Greyson Jones Memorial Scholarship. ' Cause like we had enough visibility that we were still able to you know, I was still doing the scholarship myself.I was usually able to find like one semester at a time.[00:17:06] Rowan: sorry, can you tell us a little bit about that scholarship?[00:17:09] Stevie: Yeah, for sure. So segue over here. Greyson Jones, was a trans activist here in Ontario. he went out,east for school,and, He's just like one of the first trans people that was like in my circle that I could ask questions, I could go to, I could talk to.and we kind of lost touch. And then one day I woke up and saw that he was gone. and after talking with his family, I found out that, it was a result of, I don't know how much I can say. it was an overdose. We're not sure if it was intentional or not. He was in a lot of pain because of a botched hysterectomy.And yeah, I just, I didn't want the person that gave me as much hope as I had to just be another name on a list, another candle. I was like, this person is important, and more people should know about him and what he does. It was about a year, like that was the first year that I attended a Trans Day of Remembrance, and I came forward and I got to speak his name and, and led a candle for Greyson. And about a year after that I was like, there's gotta be something. Like I mentioned him in posts often, but I wanna do something. and I already had my not-for-profit. And I approached them and said like, I wanna do a scholarship.I can fundraise it. I will do it all myself. I don't need your support. It's great if I have it, but I don't need it. I will do this all myself. and I had all of their support to go ahead with it. I reached out to Greyson's family and they said like, that sounds amazing. Yes. Please tell us what we can do.And the first, like two or three semesters, I funded it myself. So, over the summer I donate $5 per t-shirt sold on my website to very godparents. and so I was able to fund like a thousand dollars at a time here and there for a semester. we would sometimes get community donors, but like never enough that it was like a whole scholarship.But any who? when we went viral, I was already donating $5 per shirt, and because of the ridiculous number, I was able to donate $10,000 in that two weeks. so Greyson Jones is set up for a couple years now, and we've also had more visibility and more community donations since then. and now we have, I had a meeting this week, with a grant program, who is going to support, so I'm, really stoked.I'm really happy for his family. I really hope that Greyson, sees and knows what's going on, in his name. And I hope that he's proud because every recipient. Is chosen based on characteristics that Greyson emanated in his life. so yeah, that's a project that's really important to me. and yeah, so we went viral because of David Tennant, which was amazing.we haven't really quite had the visibility like that since then. We do have influencers who, do give us a big wave every once in a while, and we're super grateful and can ride that wave until the next one. business has never really slowed down since then. it ebbs and flows, but there's never a lull to a point where I'm like worried, which , has been.Very, like, I'm blessed.[00:20:25] Lara: I love that. I think it's great. And I will say I have the, you'll have to go through me shirt. that is the first shirt, that my husband and I have matching. You know how some people do matching couple outfits? We don't do that. But that has the first one where we did matching couple outfits, and I don't think that there is any.Shirt. No, I know that there's no shirt in like my life that so many of the people that I know also have, like I, when I posted a photo of my husband and I wearing it when we got it. the amount of people who I already know who are like, I have that shirt, I have that shirt, I have that shirt.[00:20:59] Stevie: that's so cool.[00:20:59] Lara: Was really great. Like, it really resonates with a lot of people and I'm sure it's partially you know, My bubble is particularly, prone to resonating with that message. But I think it's really great. Like I certainly have never seen any other shirt be as well known and like have people be like, I'm gonna wear that shirt.So I think it's fantastic.[00:21:24] Rowan: Stevie talk for a minute, if you don't mind, about the importance of allyship for trans people, for non-binary people. you know, when people wear a shirt like that or anything else? I know we've talked specifically about your shirts, but there are a lot of ways people can show up.As an ally, what does that mean right now? how do you do it? And what does it mean when someone in our community sees that allyship?[00:21:53] Stevie: It's everything. right now the world is a really scary place and it's designed for us to feel alone. you know, these. Billionaire conglomerates are sitting in their offices and figuring out how to make you feel more alone so that you shop online more so that you, buy AI technology for someone to talk to or, you know, there's, there's so many ways that they're designing society for you to feel lonely we all know that lonely is a scary thought. there are people in our community and outside our community who have dark thoughts, suicidal thoughts, and when you feel alone and you feel like nobody gives a s**t about you. And I mean, everybody in the trans community can feel that at any point. It happens often when the lawmakers are passing laws that take away your validity.You feel alone. And the only way to break that cycle, the only way to push back is to show up as a community. And I have been particularly good at building communities for a long time. actually since I've had kids, like I started with mom groups. I created my own mom group where people could show up and like messy buns and sweatpants and nobody gave a crap if your kid was wearing pants or not.Like I wanted to create those safe spaces where people. Could feel less alone. I mean, we had like mom groups in the area, but they're like, mommy and me jogging and, it's for like privileged moms who can afford to go and spend $600 on a stroller bootcamp or whatever. Like there are so many of us who are struggling and there isn't anything for us.so creating those safe spaces Has always been something that I've been good at. And the only thing that I can think of that makes me good at that is that I just show up authentically. I don't give a s**t. I'm not polished, I'm not perfect. I don't ever wanna be perfect. If anybody ever sees me being perfect, like call somebody, I'm not perfect.I've been taken over by aliens. If I start showing up as perfect. I want other people to know that, you know, perfection isn't even, like, it's not a real thing. being polished online isn't real. it's fake. and I think that a lot of people appreciated that authenticity, that unpolished make mistakes be messy.own it when you screw up. Show humility. I get humbled like every day. but I'm not afraid of that and I think that is what draws people in. I would[00:24:33] Lara: love to share a story though, because I think Please do. First of all, it's really, Important. I think for people who are cis-het to hear like it means a lot, right? There's a certain part where you're like, am I just making a stink? What am I doing? Like, what is the, purpose of me wearing a shirt like this? And you know that there are people who are going to be like, why do you have to do that?Right? Like[00:24:55] Stevie: make the stink.[00:24:56] Lara: So my story is few weeks ago I wore the shirt and we stopped at a gas station slash Tim Hortons in a pretty rural area. And there was a part of me as I went into the, gas station that thought, am I inviting somebody to actually have to go through me?Like, here we go. I'm inviting violence. Like there was that small piece of me that was like, oh, did, I mean this? But I pushed that aside and I went inside and then I ordered a coffee. And as I was about to leave somebody who was in the back, so they work at the Tim Horton's in this rural area.Somebody came out to say, you know, excuse me, I just wanna let you know I really like your shirt. And so like, I got chills, right? Like, you know that for somebody to do that it meant something. I don't know if they were trans, like I have no idea. But it meant something and I think that.Even if that only happens on occasion, the fact that somebody said something means that how many more people saw it and it meant something and they didn't say something has to be huge. And I have other friends who have the shirt who will say things like, I was at Blues Fest and somebody came up to me and said, I love your shirt.Like people are responding to it. And so just being reminded. That it does make a difference. Like, it's not just like, oh, like why do you have to say that? Nobody cares. people care. They care. And being told that over, you know, having that message repeated so that we really believe it, it makes a difference, is huge.And like that one moment, I've told this story so many times since then because I think it was so important to understand that just wearing a shirt, which you know, obviously is something, but it's not huge. Impacted somebody enough for them to want to respond to it. And that made it so like, I'm gonna wear that shirt even more than I did before.[00:26:50] Stevie: Those stories are why I keep pushing because there are so many times when I'm like, okay, I'm self-sacrificing enough. I need to pull back a little bit. But hearing another one, like there are so many stories just like that one. Or there are people within the community that find each other because of the shirts, or they both wear them at an airport and like one of them is like on a connecting flight or whatever, and they're like, oh crap, I know where you're from.like that's the coolest part of what I do is, , hearing the stories like that, but also seeing that people feel represented, that people know that there's someone that they can be like. Hey, I really need to pee. Can you just stand outside the door? Like anybody wearing this shirt would absolutely say yes,[00:27:32] Lara: You betcha[00:27:33] Rowan: That's right. That's right. and I think you said something a little earlier on that I wanted to touch on as well. We went through an unfortunate time on the internet where I think a lot of us expected perfection from our allies. I mean, and perfection meant different things to different people.Sometimes it was like, don't say anything because then you're talking over say trans people. no. If you don't say anything, then you're not speaking up enough. And that also makes you a bad ally. I mean, there's all these different, you know, I was like, oh, you got this one thing wrong. You said this word wrong.You're a terrible person. You're transphobic. And I think that that has scared. A lot of people in terms of perfection, like I don't think there is a perfect ally because there can't be because people are imperfect. Right?[00:28:28] Stevie: Absolutely. I completely agree. I think that this is a lot of the reason why our community is always infighting and always fractured.It's because we all have different levels of brain salad and we all have different levels of like. Autism and, neurodivergence. And we also have different levels of progressive, new people fresh outta the closet who are not quite comfortable with who they are yet are not quite comfortable with other people speaking.about them like directly or indirectly. and I noticed I did this, there was an entire year after I came out where I pushed everyone away from me because I was like, you're either a hundred percent with me or not at all.[00:29:10] Rowan: Right[00:29:11] Stevie: And I alienated so many people that I was like, if you're not willing to.Be supportive the way that I need you to be supportive. It must mean that you're not safe for me. And that's not true. You know, autism is a spectrum. Sexuality is a spectrum. gender is a spectrum. Allyship is a spectrum too.And as long as we are going the same direction, they're safe for you as long as people are.Still committed to learning, still committed to f*****g up and, growing from that. They're not bad people. You don't know what you don't know. and we always tell people, don't expect labor from trans people. Well, somebody's gotta do the labor or you know, like these allies are not gonna learn on their own.They don't know where to look. They don't know how to look. They don't know what they don't know. And so somebody's gotta do the labor, somebody's gotta do the work. and as long as those people show up authentically and are willing to make mistakes and be corrected, then they're an ally. Allyship is always going to be a spectrum. There are people who are like fresh out of leaving the mega cult or like, all right, I'm gonna be a recovering bigot. They're not gonna know anything, but you know that they're going to try. And as long as they're trying, who gives a s**t where they are on the spectrum, you gotta make space for them too.if we expect perfection of every single person, we're alienating people who are fighting for us. We are alienating people who are on our side and would stand at the bathroom door for us. Just because they're not perfect or because they don't say the right thing a hundred percent of the time, doesn't mean they're not your ally or your safe space.If they're, you know, doubling down or, not willing to hear that feedback. Then you gotta have a, a tougher conversation. You gotta talk about boundaries. You gotta talk about like what are your expectations of this person as a safe space? But as long as they're moving towards the same direction that you are, stop alienating your people because they're not perfect.I did this for a whole year and like, I almost lost my parents. Um. Who, by the way, are not perfect, but they are moving the right direction and so I have to make space for them. I have to hold space and be comfortable with them not being perfect. I also have to be comfortable with, you know, they are uncomfortable.I am not a comfortable person to be around. I do that on purpose. I don't fit anybody's expectations. I am very aware that I make people uncomfortable and I have to be okay with challenging them to, you know, be uncomfortable. I have to be okay with letting people sit with their discomfort and coming around.It's taken a long time for me to get to where I am. and I think it's why I am the person that I am and why I teach safe space, because I understand that not everybody is going to get there You know, nobody has the same starting point, they're all moving the same direction.But you know, it doesn't matter where you start, as long as the finish line is the same for everybody.[00:32:18] Rowan: I love that. I think that is also true for trans people. Some of us come out really early. Some of us know from a really young age and don't come out till later. Some of us don't know from a really young age and come out later.some of us never come out at all, even if we do know, some of us come out and decide, Nope, this is too much for me. And. Decide to go back to living the way they were before, to some extent. And I'm curious about your role as a gender doula. So, going back to my past, I was working way back in the day towards becoming a lactation consultant.And I ended up taking a different path. I went into writing, but for a while I worked as a postpartum doula. So you have a birth doula, and I think most people know what a birth doula is. Somebody who supports you through the birthing process. You have a postpartum doula that's somebody who supports you after the birth, maybe with breastfeeding or , chest feeding, other types of things that you might need at that time.I know someone who is a death doula who helps usher people in and support their families at the end of their life, what is a gender doula?[00:33:27] Stevie: So. I am not the first person to call myself a gender doula. There was someone before me who I followed for a long time and thought, you know what?I can't think of a better word. So I'm also going to call myself a gender doula. I was also a birth and postpartum doula first.[00:33:45] Rowan: A-ha, there we go. Yeah. So you get it.[00:33:48] Stevie: So a doula is not a medical professional. We are a support person who works with your medical professional and also with your own team that knows you.So when I was a being a birth doula, I would tell people that like, listen, your partner knows you. I know birth, we work as a team. We're good together. I'm also not a medical professional, so like I am not going to be doing cervical checks or listening to baby's heartbeat. Like that's not my role either.I don't do anything medical and I can't give medical advice. What we do is provide education so that people can make informed choices for their, care or their birth, or the care of their infant postpartum. and so it's the exact same thing except for with transition. so I support people.I'm not a medical professional. I don't give medical advice I'm not insured for that. And nobody will insure a gender doula anyway, because we're just making it up as we go, but I can give you education so that you can make informed choices. I can make notes for you.I'm not a therapist either, but I do have motivational interviewing so I can like, give you a sounding board. Most importantly, what I do is like, what do you need? How do you need someone to show up for you right now? do you need someone to listen while you cry and figure out what your gender is?Do you need someone to sit with you through the grueling 10 pages of changing your name? Do you need someone to figure out, how to navigate the system? As somebody who. really struggled to get my mastectomy because my family doctor was not affirming and wouldn't give me a gender dysphoria diagnosis.So then all of a sudden I'm in the position of like, all right, well I know that I need a mastectomy, so like, what am I going to do? What hoops am I gonna jump through to get this for myself? and sometimes you need someone who understands the healthcare system enough to be able to jump through those hoops with you.I can give you like all of the research and all of the things you know from wpath. I can give you textbooks, I can tell you about what surgeries are available. A lot of people don't even know what the options are when you're transitioning. Like they don't know what, hormone replacement therapy.Like for me, I went on testosterone for a very short time. Long enough to drop my voice long enough to do a few things that I wanted , to affirm my gender, but I didn't wanna be on it long term. A lot of people don't know that that's an option. there are people that don't know that when you have a hysterectomy that you can keep one of your ovaries so that you don't have to be on HRT forever.There are a lot of things that people don't know or understand, and it's not mainstream to know these things. So my job is to just the bug in your ear that is like, okay, what do you need from me? I will show out for you. You need help research, you need help. doing that 10 pages of, name change, I did my name change three different times.'cause I screwed it up so many times like. it's also crazy overwhelming to see a 10 page document. Like it took me a year to do my name change because I printed off 10 pages and went, oh my God, I can't do this.[00:36:46] Rowan: Me too. Right. It took, took two attempts to go through it. I needed help to go through it, and I'm not bad with forms exactly.So difficult in the province of Ontario to get your name changed. It is a nightmare. when you were like, do you need help with this? Do you need help? In my head I'm like, yes, I would've needed help with that so I love that this is a service that you provide for people.[00:37:09] Stevie: Yeah.I don't charge, because I don't think that our community is in any position to be able to pay for that kind of help. I. Take donations if people want to pay, most of the time I'll just tell them to make a donation to the Greyson Jones Memorial Scholarship or buy a t-shirt. a lot of that has been twisted.So there are systems navigators in Ontario where I don't charge money, but if someone wants to make a contribution in some way, I will say, you can purchase a t-shirt. And so it's been twisted so that people say like, you have to buy my merch to get my service. That's not true. it never will be true. I very often pay for people's name changes because they can't afford it themselves.and I'm in a position to be able to do so.[00:37:55] Lara: I a hundred percent understand where you're coming from.I also know that there are some people who like to be contrary about everything, so that always is gonna exist. But as you're talking, one of the things that I kept thinking was, do you offer this service to the parents of. Trans kids because, I can think of a few people that I know who could use that kind of support, right?Like, because whether it's yourself or you're trying to support somebody else, that whole like, I don't know how to get through this form thing. It's real for an awful lot of people, no matter[00:38:27] Stevie: I would call this afternoon with a parent whose kid just came out, they're 16 and they don't know how to start.[00:38:33] Lara: I love it.[00:38:34] Stevie: That's, like almost 99% of what I do is sit with parents of trans teens and just like walk them through the process. I can give you like book recommendations. I've also worked with, a lot of brands online that while they're good brands, and they pay their people a living wage, which makes their products a little bit inaccessible for most people.So things like binders and gaffes and you know, I've reached out to those brands one-on-one and they're small enough that they have a good customer service. and So I've worked out where I'm an affiliate with most of those brands and can give discount codes to my clients, to make those things more accessible.I also have my own binder bank, where, there are people that just, can't get their hands on a binder, and that is the difference between. Going to school and not going to school. There are so many things that trans people need that society doesn't account for, and so I've made it my job to understand those needs and navigate it with them.[00:39:35] Lara: I think that is so important because I really do believe a lot of parents want to be supportive, but don't know what to do. Right? Like you've just. Put me in a position where I am like, ah, like, okay, but like what? And so to know where people can go and get that kind of support is fantastic. I think, you know, it's amazing.I think we could probably do whole other episode asking more questions. I have a million of them because I think that's where we're at, is this is. New for most people, we know trans people have always existed, but we haven't been talking about it. We haven't had the information available to have learned from.And so, although we don't always have to understand, the more we do understand, the better prepared we are to support people. And like you said, somebody has to talk about it. Like we can't just be like, figure it out. Because then they're definitely gonna get it wrong.[00:40:35] Rowan: Yeah. Stevie, we're going to have to have you back.There's no question. We are gonna have to have another conversation with you because you are phenomenal. I consider you a friend and I'm so grateful to have you in my circle, but I think the world just needs to hear more from you because you're just a really loving, kind. Human being and, you know, regardless of gender, which is what people really need to understand.And in fact, maybe perhaps because you have embraced who you are so authentically that you're able to give to others, where can people find you you know, until we have you back.[00:41:10] Stevie: so if people are looking to, interact with me. Facebook is it? if you want to like, interact, be part of my community, look for Stevie Bees on Facebook.I don't have a check mark 'cause I'm not giving any more money to Facebook. I do have a private group where like all you have to do is request to be added. but it's a lot of parents looking for support. I also have a link tree in my bio on Facebook with links to like other podcasts that I've done.I have like book lists and stuff that you can look at there. I have some TikTok videos that are linked there. I do have a, website, www.steviesafespaces.com. that's also linked in my link tree, so if you don't remember it, that's totally cool. I am on Instagram, I am on TikTok, but if you're looking to interact with me, majority of my stuff is on Facebook.That's where I go.[00:42:00] Lara: And we'll put all of those links on our substack, so if people wanna go and find it there, we'll put those all in one place for people to go and find you.[00:42:09] Rowan: Stevie, thank you so much for joining us today. We just adore you.[00:42:13] Stevie: Thanks for having me. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Lara just turned 49 and has been thinking a lot about how 50 is right around the corner. In this conversation, we dig into people’s perceptions of aging and the fact that Lara doesn’t dye her hair (which is weird because have you seen her hair? Not a grey in sight!)We also talked about Pamela Anderson and Justine Bateman, and how they are bucking beauty standards for older women. Do you remember how “older” people looked on Archie Bunker and the Golden Girls? In some ways, people look younger at 50 now because of how they dress and wear their hair, but also potentially because we really are aging more slowly now.Just for fun, we did a bit of research on some of the shows we watched growing up that featured older people. While the Golden Girls were all meant to be in their 50s, most of the actors were in their early 60s (the exception was Rue McClanahan, who was 51). Carroll O’Connor was 46 when he started in his role as Archie Bunker (how?!)Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Transcripts(we do not carefully edit these so there may be errors)[00:00:00] Rowan: have traded. A lot of insecurity in the past for more confidence.As I've gotten older and I have traded a lot of what I thought were really important things like youthfulness for wisdom. And I wouldn't trade it back at this point.[00:00:43] Lara: Hi everyone. Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara.[00:00:46] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.[00:00:48] Lara: And we are back for another episode. And this week we are talking about something that directly relates to my most recent life event, which was that it was my birthday recently and I turned 49, which means I'm going to be 50 soon.[00:01:06] Rowan: Ooh, that's a big one.I'm turning 49 in about a month and a half, so yeah, it's creeping up there.[00:01:16] Lara: I know. And because we're so similar in age, which I always sort of keep in the back of my mind, like we're very similar in age, so we're coming on all these things at approximately the same time, and I think.That it's a really good topic to dig into for a number of reasons. So age and ageism, and how do we feel about getting older and how do we just sort of feel about all of it? So I will say that the only birthday that I had where I was like, Ugh, I feel old. And not accomplished enough for this age.Right? Like I think that that was really at the root of what my problem with turning that age was. It was 25.[00:02:02] Rowan: Sorry. I apologize to everyone about to turn 25 who might be listening to this. I was like, Rowan, you're rude. Why'd you just laugh?[00:02:09] Lara: I know. And like certainly the older you get, the more somebody being like, I'm so old, and you're like.Dude, you're 34. Like, come on. But then I am positive that 80 year olds think I am silly for suggesting I'm old, right? Like, that's okay. But at 25, my parents were married and had been married for several years. And I was born when my mom was 25. And you know, they were doing their masters and their PhD, one of each, and I was like, here I am.I have no partner. I'm still in school, but like, I wasn't doing a master's or PhD. And I moved out of my parents' house right before I turned 25 essentially, because I was like, I can't be living at home at 25. That is, not okay. So all that to say 25 was the one where I felt a little bit of that angst that I think people talk about with age.I didn't feel it at 30, I didn't feel it at 40, and I'm not particularly feeling it at 50 in terms of I don't wanna go there or I don't wanna admit it, but I have other feelings about it.[00:03:20] Rowan: Curious. I'm curious to know what your other feelings about it are.[00:03:23] Lara: So. I think that for every decade, so 30, 40, and I'm hoping 50, I became more confident.I had more self-assurance, I felt more comfortable in my skin. there's just a little bit more, I don't care what other people think, like that has come with age and you know, some work, self-work. And so to me. If that's the trend, my fifties should be even better than my forties and like I am, I'm there for it.That's fine. I have no issues with it. But I do catch myself still in that, you know, the ageism thing where like, we don't want to get old, we don't like, maybe I'm getting older in numbers, but I don't seem old. I don't look old. I'm not old in nature, all of that. I still don't wanna be quote unquote old, even if I'm fine with the number.And so i'm trying to unpack that, right, because for me, I catch myself in certain things. For example, I don't know if this happens to you, might have happened to you more before or maybe not, but like, I'll be like, it's my birthday and somebody will be like, happy 29th birthday. And I'm like,[00:04:39] Rowan: oh. I don't understand that[00:04:40] Lara: because you don't wanna ever be thought of as older than 30, like, God forbid, and I'm like, , no. We can say I'm, I'm 49, that's fine. But the idea that we shouldn't be getting older, especially women, I think, right? That we want to remain young. and looking young and thought of as young. I think that's still there. And the things that I catch myself in is looking older, right? So, I'm like, oh, does my skin look older?Do I, need to do something about that? Right? Like, I'll catch myself like sort of pulling my skin back and being like, what about Botox? What are the things you could do that might make your skin look younger? And it's a little bit how I feel about, you know, body image, where it's like nice to accept who you are.Is it okay to want something different? Like, this is where I get all snarly and when I proposed this topic, I was saying maybe this is just part one and there's somebody else who wants to come in and talk to us about this. Because I think there is so much to unpack between. How we feel about getting older, how we feel about looking older, and how we just navigate all that so we're not being ageist, but we're also allowing ourselvesto be who we wanna be, who.There's a scene in the Barbie movie. I think one of the most profound scenes, and I'm assuming most people have seen Barbie now, but if you haven't, you really should because it talks a lot about societal expectations, talks a lot about the patriarchy. There's a lot of things going on, but I think my favorite moment.In the movie is early on where Barbie, standard Barbie played by Margo Ro Margo Robbie, what's her name? Margot. Robbie. Robbie? Yeah. Margot Robbie. Wow. See I am old. Um, who's phenomenal. She travels to the real world, and she's sitting on a bench. Next to her is this older woman who's probably, you know, in her late seventies to eighties.And you know, she has wrinkles and gray hair and she's just sitting there smiling, you know, just at peace, just content. And Barbie looks over at her and locks eyes with her, and Barbie says to her, you are beautiful. And the woman looks back at her and says, I know.Hmm.[00:07:01] Rowan: It's such a lovely moment because Barbie is supposed to embody that youthfulness no matter what a Barbie does, no matter who she is.She's always gorgeous and young and fit. And you know, this has always been the idea of Barbie. And so for. Barbie and an actress rather who, embodies a lot of those things as well, to have that moment where she looks over at somebody who is significantly older and goes, wow.You're, you're gorgeous. You're, you're just stunning. and seeing the beauty in that, , that is something that we really lack in Western society. I mean, even I, I will say, I'm gonna speak to the, you know, the whole living, life, on, both sides. The gender spectrum, if you will, where I. Lived as a woman for a long time and now I'm living as a man.There is so much more allowance for me. To age. it is now seen as, I'm now distinguished. I'm not old. I don't have gray hair. I'm a silver fox. I, that's not something I assign to myself. That's something that people have said about me, you know, and, I get compared to people like George Clooney, I don't look anything like George Clooney, but you know, like, that kind of distinguished gentleman because men in Hollywood and in society.Are allowed to age, but don't worry, because now the beauty industry has clued into that and they are just running with, you know, trying to make men as insecure as they have made women about our looks like they are trying so hard to get us to feel terrible about our skin, terrible about Wrinkles terrible about our hair or lack of hair or whatever it might be, right? Terrible about our bodies and it's all about protein and the gym So it is happening and it has been happening for a while, but I think I'm seeing the results of that more and more. But it is nowhere near still what women are dealing with.[00:09:09] Lara: Yeah. Women. Are just hammered with everything where it has to do with what you look like and how young you look, and how beautiful you look, and how thin you look their whole lives. And so part of it, again, with body image is what have we been taught is attractive. So this Barbie scene is nobody implanted the idea.That it would be bad to look the way a senior would look. And therefore she saw it and was like, wow, beautiful. But we have been taught you don't wanna be that.[00:09:42] Rowan: Right.[00:09:43] Lara: And so that is, again, it's where I get all snarly about this because there's the part of me that's like, I know that and they're beautiful and there's no reason that we shouldn't be okay with getting older.But then. Accepting it for myself isn't always easy, so I know that when people sort of ask you, you know, what's something that you really like about yourself or you know, whatever it is. One of the things that I often bring up is the fact that we just mentioned we're about the same age. I don't dye my hair.[00:10:15] Rowan: Oh wow. I did not know that.[00:10:17] Lara: Yeah,[00:10:18] Rowan: because you have no gray in your hair at all.[00:10:20] Lara: I have no gray.[00:10:21] Rowan: None.[00:10:21] Lara: Yeah. So this is not because I dye my hair. This is naturally, I do not dye my hair. I am not going gray. At almost 50 there is an occasional gray hair, but nothing more than that. And so should that be a point of pride or does it not matter?Of course. It doesn't matter In fact. I am trying very hard to embrace them. So if there is a gray hair, I'm like, oh look, I've got sparkle in my hair. I don't pull it out. None of that. That being said, if I tell somebody to embrace their gray because it's beautiful, they're like, um, I think you should shut up. You don't know what you're talking about. I was like, you know what? Fair point.[00:11:01] Rowan: that is a good point,[00:11:02] Lara: right?[00:11:03] Rowan: I can tell them. so I used to dye my hair all the time before I transitioned and once I got my hair cut short, I was like, you know what?Gonna let it grow out and see what it looks like. And I love it. I love the color, I love the salt and pepper. I think it looks great and I know that, you know, my face is changing , and that there's a different set of expectations for me now because the world sees me largely as a man, but.I really wish I could go back and have a conversation with myself 10, 15 years ago and be like, you don't have to dye your hair all the time. You really don't like, you will look really great even if you don't dye your hair. My family goes gray very early on my mother's side. you know, I have, my brothers started having gray in their hair when they were, you know, 28 - 30 years old. My 18-year-old son has a little bit of gray hair. Not a lot, but you can see it poking through a little bit here and there in his hair. Probably a lot like yours, right? Where there's like the odd sort of white hair. Mm-hmm. And, it's just the way that it is and I think some of this old is bad, has to do with some of the unfortunate things that do happen when you're older.One of them is, you know, inevitably death. So I think, you know, let's just get that outta the way. we all die at some point and a lot of us live, thankfully, a good long life before we do. But also up until that point, there is this sort of gradual breakdown of the body. Ask me how I know my partner who is 50 years old, she said.Rowan, you're not having a great day today. I'm gonna take you on a little walk. Put some good shoes on. I love to walk. I really do. And so I was like, okay, this is fantastic. I thought a little walk might be, you know, five, seven K was not expecting it would be 14 kilometers.And did we bring water? No. Did we bring snacks? No. Was I a grumpy little man at the end of it. You bet. I was. And the next day. I was in so much pain. My back hurt, my hips hurt, my feet hurt. And these are things that never used to happen to me when I was younger, and that is just one of the inevitabilities of aging.So I don't want to be someone who says. Oh, there's nothing to worry about. Aging is great. There are some downsides. Virtually all of them are physical and in some cases, some of them can be cognitive, but we also get something really cool. We get wisdom. You don't just have wisdom. Wisdom is acquired. In my opinion, wisdom is something that you get from lived experience.Now, I'm not saying every older person is wise. You have to have experienced things, and you have to be self-aware enough to go, what can I learn from this experience? I mean, that's the other part of, attaining wisdom. But I have traded. A lot of insecurity in the past for more confidence.As I've gotten older and I have traded a lot of what I thought were really important things like youthfulness for wisdom. And I wouldn't trade it back at this point. I really like the life experience that I have. I think it has helped me be more centered. It's helped me be kinder. And the other thing is it has helped me realize I don't know everything.'cause I think when we're younger, we really, not all of us, I don't wanna generalize, but most people I know will say the same thing. I really thought I knew everything. You know, I thought like I got to an age, I don't know, maybe 30. And I was like, I know everything there is to know, like. I'm a grownup now.I know everything. No, I didn't. I still don't know everything, but that's the best part is now I'm on the cusp of 50 years old and I know I don't know everything and that makes me a lot wiser and calmer.[00:15:10] Lara: I have three teenagers right now, and so I am experiencing the, I know what I'm talking about, kind of attitude.From them and there's equal parts frustration because it's so annoying, especially when I know that they're wrong and like, oh, I remember being like this. I remember being like this.[00:15:34] Rowan: Yes. And I mean, it is still really good. And that's the other thing I think older people need to remember. We still need to listen to younger people.Sometimes younger people will know more about a topic than we do, and us assuming that we know everything is a bad move, like just based on age I am So ignorant in some ways that maybe an 18-year-old or a 15-year-old won't be. And it can really help me to get that perspective. So I don't wanna say like they know nothing and I know , and no matter what they say they're wrong.That's not true. But there is something really freeing. When you finally realize you don't have all the answers, you don't have all this control you thought you had. You don't need to know everything and you can just go, yeah, this is what I'm bringing to the table right here. And I'm open to learning, but I don't know everything.It's cool[00:16:29] Lara: and I do wonder if that's kind of new. So I feel like getting older is different than it used to be. There was an event that I went to, I mean, let's say it was seven or eight years ago, and I think I was 43 and I went to this event, and most of the people there were in their early thirties, and so one of the best examples of this too, so it was in a summer camp, but it was after summer camp was over and it was all adults and they had this big lodge and it was breakfast and we came in and there's like this big stone fireplace and there was all these pieces of furniture that were built out of logs. And I said, Ooh, this is very friendly, giant.And not a single person I was sitting with had any idea what I was talking about. And then I said, oh, I guess you guys are too young. And they were like, well, how old are you? And I was like, 43. They're like, no, no. I thought you were the same age as us. I thought you were 30, whatever. I was like, okay, first of all, there's the part of me that was a little tickled that they thought I was so much younger, right?Because we've all been trained to not want to look old. I very much felt after thinking about it for a while, I was like, I think it's because I dress in like hoodies and I brought a whole bunch of onesies to this camp, so I was like, you know, prancing around the camp, dressed in like a lemur onesie.And I was like, here, do you wanna be a unicorn? Do you wanna be a carrot? And so I think. Part of the reason they didn't think I was quote unquote old was because I wasn't acting the way that they think old acts. And certainly when I was little, people in their fifties, you know, all the ladies were starting to cut their hair short.Maybe they're getting perms there was like almost like a uniform to being older. And I mean, I obviously, I can't go back and ask them how they felt about it. Like they just embraced that that was the time in their life when they were older. Did they just think they had to? I don't know. But I feel like Gen X is doing one thing differently, which is just like I can keep wearing hoodies and I don't have to wear blouses all the time now.I can still have fun. And maybe. Maybe I'm saying this and it's actually just, I am the one who will still bring the onesie to the party. Not all the 50 year olds. But I do think some of it is about how you present yourself and your attitude and that what people think is young, not actually anything else around the number.[00:19:01] Rowan: I think there's some truth to that. I know people our age who. Like to be in bed at nine o'clock and get up at 5 30, 6 o'clock so that they can do, you know, yoga and work a nine to five job. And you know, sometimes go to a party once every six months And then I know people our age.Who do drugs almost every night. 'cause they think it's fun and they go to music festivals and they still date a lot of people , and it's a totally different life. I. I like that there's room for both of those things and everything in between now. So it's not, this is what you're supposed to do, and that's, that, that's all you have.I mean, if you look at the Golden Girls, I've never fact checked this, but correct me if I'm wrong, anyone who's listening, I believe the Golden Girls were supposed to be in their forties to fifties, and they. To me all seem like they were in their sixties or older. If you just look at the Golden Girls from today's perspective, like how are they dressed?How are they? Well, you know, , they definitely had a lot of fun and it was a great, I love that show. Such a good show. But they challenged aging. It was a show that certainly challenged aging, but they did still have a certain appearance, all of them that was indicative of the generation they were a part of.And it was exactly what you were talking about where they all, had their hair cut short and they all dressed in blouses and so, yeah, I do think that there is something to be said about Gen X disrupting that.[00:20:48] Lara: Yeah, I've seen some of these photoshopped pictures of the Golden Girls and they're like, if we just put modern haircuts on them, they wouldn't look nearly that old.Like some of it was very much how they dressed, how they did their hair, and I don't think they were quite in their forties or anything. but I think all the actresses were in their early fifties to mid fifties, and a lot younger than most of us thought they were because. partially, I think when they did the Golden Girls, they weren't trying to make them look old., That was what was age appropriate, even if you were wanting to act young at the time. And that's it. and then there's the piece where I think it's true that probably because of nutrition and sunscreen and so on. We aren't aging as quickly. Right? Like truly and completely. If you look at people, not just based on their hairstyles and their outfit, but based on their skin and based on their health, maybe they were old, younger than we are gonna be old.[00:21:49] Rowan: Yeah.[00:21:49] Lara: If old is sort of. Getting a bit more decrepit fast, just like your skin. And you know, there's so many shows where I've seen that. Like did you know, and I'm not gonna get the age right, but let's say it's Archie Bunker was only like 48. And you're like, what?[00:22:05] Rowan: Yeah. That's a really good point.And also I think when we're younger, we tend to look at people who are older and see them as much older than they really are.[00:22:16] Lara: For sure. I think both are true. I think that I'm gonna put some, photos in the show notes. We'll put the golden girls, . If I can find one of those photoshopped pictures of them with the younger haircuts and Archie Bunker, like I've seen so many of these things, maybe I'll put them in the show notes and people can, chime in on what they think because I think it's a little bit of both.Right. Certainly, you know, I remember my first day of kindergarten I got lost. And somebody helped me find the kindergarten room and they were probably in grade five, and I thought that they were like a grownup. Do you know what I mean? Like,[00:22:49] Rowan: it's true.[00:22:50] Lara: It's all relative, for sure. and you know, I play this game a lot with myself now, where I'm like, how old were my friend's parents when I met them or when I was this age?And I'm like, I am older. Then these parents were, when I was a kid, and they were so old, Rowan, they were so old.[00:23:11] Rowan: I remember when, my partner and I back, when we were teenagers, realized we were going to have a baby. We decided, we had a conversation. We're like, okay, we're gonna have this baby.This baby is now 28 years old, by the way. So, we called our parents and both of our mothers practically passed out, I think from shock, and they could not get over that. They were going to be grandmothers at 40 years old. And I remember getting off the phone after we told the second one and I was like, I don't get it.What's the big deal? They're so old.[00:23:49] Lara: I know.[00:23:49] Rowan: I was 19, so to me that was double over, double my age, so, so I did not get it. Of course, 40 is grandma age, right? I am now. 48 years old, and thankfully none of my children have decided I should be a grandfather yet. So.[00:24:09] Lara: But they could have. They're certainly old enough as you have demonstrated.[00:24:13] Rowan: Oh, I know, I know. I mean, I really, I'm ready to be a grandpa now. Like you can go right ahead, but . I remember getting to 40 and I was like, but I'm still so young. Oh, I get it now. I understand why that was so weird for them. I mean, they had more time with their grandkids too.which is fantastic. But yeah, , that is not old. 40 is not old. It just seems old when you're half that age.[00:24:37] Lara: For sure.So, yeah, I think ultimately, some of these topics we've talked about on other episodes, like I have an opinion, like this is what I hope you take away from, and this one I'm more like, I hope somebody can give me.Some insight, that will help me wrap my head around how to equally embrace aging, but not feel like I need to just accept everything without changing it. Right? Like it's like this, like where do you land? How do you get to choose what's right? Angela? Anderson. No, what's her name?The Baywatch lady?[00:25:12] Rowan: Pamela.[00:25:12] Lara: Pamela Anderson,[00:25:14] Rowan: the Baywatch lady...Tell people you're Gen X without telling them you're Gen X. Go.[00:25:23] Lara: I don't know if you've seen her recently, but she has stopped wearing makeup.Yeah,she looks older without makeup on.[00:25:31] Rowan: Yeah. If people don't know Pam Anderson from before, she was like the blonde bombshell of the nineties. Just imagined like a real life Barbie basically.And that was Pamela Anderson. she has now decided, you know, I'm, I'm done with that. I feel like it doesn't represent who I really am. I don't wanna put words in her mouth, but that seems to be the interpretation I'm getting from some of the things that she's said. She just really wants to embrace getting older and loving herself for who she is.And I think she looks fantastic. She really does. She looks great and she looks older. Yes. And that's okay.[00:26:12] Lara: And does she look older or does she just look like somebody who's not wearing makeup, and We're so used to people wearing makeup? because you know what makeup does? I don't know if you know this.It changes how we look[00:26:26] Rowan: Really..[00:26:26] Lara: Yeah. and I very rarely wear makeup. And so, you know, I like it when I do occasionally wear it because then I'm like, look at the transformation. Like, but that as a result, I think. ' cause I don't wear makeup on a regular basis. I probably do look older or I don't know, do I look older?Do I, I just look different than I would if I did wear makeup. And so, we are used to people in the public eye being very much made up. And so it's a little bit like, oh wow. You know, another one who has done that is, Justine Bateman. Do you remember Justine Bateman? Family ties?[00:27:04] Rowan: Yeah, wasn't she Alex P Keaton's sister[00:27:07] Lara: Mallory.[00:27:08] Rowan: Mallory, that's right. Yeah.[00:27:10] Lara: Yeah. And so she also doesn't wear makeup She's just like, no, I'm embracing aging. And again, part of it isn't that there's anything wrong with how they look, it's just that we're not used to it because everybody's like makeup, makeup.Dye your hair, capitalism, capitalism,[00:27:27] Rowan: facelift, facelift, facelift, and I'm not anti any of this. I think everyone needs to do what they. Feel is right for them. If it makes you feel better and more confident and you're walking, a little bit taller, that's wonderful. Do whatever it is that you need to do as a trans person.I am not going to tell somebody don't do physical things like physical alterations because you don't need to, because obviously I'm doing them. But I will say that. It is okay if that isn't something you want to do, not to do it I think where we're at is there's this shock and awe around it where people go, what?She's not wearing makeup. And it is like, yeah, she's not wearing makeup. Yes, she's on the red carpet and she's not wearing makeup. Imagine. Imagine just being. Comfortable with who you are and what stage you're at in life and just going with it. I think that's amazing and we need to see more of it.[00:28:29] Lara: Yeah, and if you really like the makeup or if you like to wear a carrot onesie when you're almost 50, like that's okay too.[00:28:37] Rowan: And if you can't walk 14 kilometers without wanting to fall down and throw a tantrum like a toddler, because your back hurts, that's okay too. Sorry I had to throw that in there because I, honestly, honestly, , I woke up today. I'm finally not sore. Like I was like, oh, wow. I can use my back again.[00:28:56] Lara: Yes.And you know, , I feel like I'm gonna say this like 50 times in this episode. I just turned 49. I'm almost 50. But I decided many years ago that because I've had a lot of health issues most of my life, I was like, I'm solving this, I'm solving that. You know, all kinds of things happened.I was like, by the time I'm 50, I'm gonna be in the best physical health of my life, and that is now. 51 weeks away, and I'm nowhere near the physical shape of my life. And so, I decided to take on this project this year where it's 50 in 50. I'm gonna do 50 things once a week. I'm going to talk about it.And sometimes it's just a recipe, but sometimes it's like trying some new exercise because I do think it's possible by the time I turn 50, in 51 weeks that I could feel better than I do now. Like I don't have to be. That's it. I give up. I'm old. I'm gonna go sit in my recliner for the rest of my life. And so it's just like the balance between it's okay to get old, what do I wanna do so I don't feel old?How do I take care of myself? What makes me feel good? There's so many pieces to it. And, I think that, because apparently, as much as I'm obsessed with turning 50 and trying to not be obsessed with turning 50, or trying to not be obsessed with. Getting old. This will likely come up again in the next year as we both get closer to that 50 milestone.And I think it'll be an interesting journey I mean, I don't know if it's gonna be interesting for everybody else listening, but it's gonna be interesting for me to keep talking about,[00:30:29] Rowan: I think you are setting a good example of embracing where you're at in life and still wanting to grow and make changes and better your life too.'cause there's an acceptance, but there's something we can't change. We cannot change time moving forward. None of us have that power. So we are all going to, if we're fortunate. We're all going to age and live a nice long life, right? Mm-hmm. Some of us don't get to do that, and so one of my best friends, my very best friend from the time I was three years old, passed away a couple years ago from cancer and it broke my heart.And I think about her all the time. And whenever I am, you know, lamenting how old I'm getting, I think of Emmy. And I think about how I bet, you know, her family really wishes that she were still here to get older because I certainly still wish she were here to get older. Yeah. And so I'm trying to. Take that with me, you know, and so yes, I am getting older.There's nothing I can do about that. And also I can continue to grow as a person. I can continue to nourish myself well to, exercise, to meditate, to do all the things that I do to live my best older life.[00:31:48] Lara: Yeah, I think we can do all of those things. I, Know that this week's substack is gonna have a lot of images.I've made a list of all the images I plan to stick in there. So if anybody wants to come and check it out, unboxing it.substack.com, come check it out. Come sign up and add your name to the list so that you get updated for all our episodes. It's interesting. This aging thing is interesting. There's so much more to talk about, but thank you for starting the conversation and digging into it with me today, Rowan.[00:32:20] Rowan: It has been a pleasure my getting older and still wonderful friend.[00:32:26] Lara: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

What’s the difference between arrogance and confidence? As it turns out, they couldn’t be more different.We have feelings on this topic - BIG feelings. And we’re not holding back.In this episode, we dive into what society teaches many of us about being proud of ourselves (but not too proud), how self-esteem (or a lack thereof) sets the stage, and on the importance of practicing saying “thank you” when receiving compliments (even if we feel bad about accepting them.)What do you think we can do to encourage more confidence in ourselves and each other? We’d love to hear your thoughts.Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.TranscriptPlease note, we don’t carefully review these transcripts so there may be some errors.[00:00:00] Rowan: Why do you think we look at somebody posting pictures of themselves, and we think that is an arrogant, narcissistic person and not like, oh, hey, good for that guy. He looks good today. he's smiling, he is happy and enjoying his life.I'm happy for him, . Hey there, another week, another topic. I'm Rowan.And I'm Laraand you're with us on unboxing It. And this week we have got a doozy. i'm really excited to talk about this because I feel like I have a lot of experience with it and it is the difference between arrogance and confidence.It's a big one, right?[00:01:03] Lara: It is, and it's something I talk to a lot of people about as well, and I have a lot of feelings and opinions about, so we're gonna have fun with it.[00:01:10] Rowan: So. I have been online and you have been online for a very long time. Longer than I think either of us wanna admit, and probably more frequently than either of us would like to admit at one point or another. And one of the things that I have noticed is there have been trends. There have been trends around things like. Is it cool to take selfies or is it not cool to take selfies? How much should you talk about yourself? And, what do all these things say about you as a person? And those are just online examples, but we all know that there are some people out there who show off a lot.There are other people who maybe are a little quieter and. Still have no problem talking about themselves. And I think there's a difference between what we perceive as arrogance and what is actually arrogance and what we perceive as confidence and what is actually confidence in your opinion, Lara, what do you think the main difference is?And then I'm gonna give my own,[00:02:17] Lara: well, I think it's more complicated than that. So I'm gonna back it up a little bit. Ooh. And then we'll go beyond that. I do think that arrogance and confidence get mixed up. A lot. And I think that like so many other things we talk about, there is a difference between what we say they are and then how people behave when it comes to those things.So if people say it's really important to be confident, but then they see somebody talking about what they do well, they're like, you are being arrogant. And you're like, actually I think that person's being confident. So part of the. I don't know if it's a problem, but it is a challenge. Is that what people say you're doing?can be sort of turned into something bad because it makes them uncomfortable because people wish, like they're jealous, I think to some extent, right? Like I wish I could tell people I was great, but I'm not. Right. Or like, some of the things we've been told to stay small, and I think Canadians have this even more.Apparently Canadians and Australians are sort of in the same boat. But the whole tall poppy syndrome, I don't know if you've heard that. Like you're not supposed to stand out. If you stand out, you're being I don't know if the word bad, but you're being arrogant.You're being something that we don't like.[00:03:37] Rowan: You're showing off.[00:03:38] Lara: Yeah. Right. But showing off shouldn't show off, which means that we stop allowing ourselves to think we're good at things like we have been taught to not think we're good at things. So to me, confidence is believing that you're good at something, believing that you're able to do something, being, proud of what you're doing. Arrogance is probably like, you're not really good at it, but you're like walking around telling everybody you are like, there's like this, bigger, I'm trying to make people believe something that's not true, versus I simply own that I'm good at something and it's okay for me to talk about it sometimes.[00:04:17] Rowan: Hmm hmm. That's a good perspective for sure. I went really deep into it for my last book, one sunny Afternoon. I'm not gonna pull the book out and search for it right now, but I think that would've required some planning, which I did not do. The amount of times we just hop on a call and go, okay, what are we talking about today?And we just go, which is what we plan to do in its own way because it's authentic, right? We have these, like, fresh conversations, but I do not find, arrogance to, first of all, I don't find it to be an attractive quality, and I have noticed that I'm able to tell the difference now. That is because I was someone who had very little to no confidence for a good part of his life, and masked by being arrogant in places where I felt I could be arrogant.So I feel like I'm coming to this with a little bit of. Personal knowledge and in my experience, the difference between confidence and arrogance is this, confidence is innate. It's just something you feel. It is something that does not require competition. It is all within myself. I feel good because I am me.I know that I am an okay person because I am me. I know that what I bring to the table is unique and is very much in line with who am, and I don't need to compare myself to everyone else in order to feel that way. Arrogance requires comparison, arrogance and insecurity are one and the same.And most people who are arrogant, not always, I think you can make some cases, and I'm sure psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers would come back and say like, no, there are some cases where that's not true. I agree, but I think for a lot of people. Arrogance requires a deep, deep insecurity. When I was feeling arrogant, it's 'cause I didn't like myself, and what I had to do was compare myself to everyone around me.So sometimes that would make me feel worse about myself, but sometimes it would make me. Feel better if I had more. I'm just using examples. These are not necessarily real examples, but if my body was somehow what I considered better than somebody else's, or if I made more money than somebody else, or if my children were better behaved than somebody else's, it always requires comparison to others.But you don't need that with confidence. Confidence is just there. It is like a centering of self.[00:06:54] Lara: Yeah, think that's really a big one because thinking you're better than somebody. If we go to the body one, I think of all the people who spend so much time telling people how bad their bodies are, like, who cares what other people's bodies look like?Why do you need to say yours is better versus feeling good about your body, right? Like, to me, confident, I have a great body, whatever it looks like, and. I'm happy with it and I love it. And arrogance is, well, if you just did what I did and if you could just be like me and if you could stop being lazy, then you would be better off too.You didn't do it, but I did. Right? Like. the comparison thing is huge. And I was, the word bluster comes out, right? Like, you're just like, I need to loudly proclaim that this is true and that I am right, and that I am better versus just like. Accepting that you're who you are, that you're good at something, and being willing to talk about it, but not needing to be like, here ye here ye please know that I'm better than all of you.[00:07:58] Rowan: Exactly. Exactly. One of the examples that I could give that is true to life for me before I came out as a man and started living my life as a man, I lived my life as a woman, and I also lived my life as a mom. That did not make me the most comfortable, but that was like really, really, really subconscious.I just knew that the whole experience felt really awkward not having kids. I love my kids. I'm so glad I had children, but being in like the mommy world, never ever felt right. And on top of that, I became a parent very young. I was 20 when my first child was born. He's now 28 years old. Yes, you can do the math.I'm getting up there and. I felt so out of place because in my mind, if I had a child, I was supposed to be more settled. I was supposed to have, you know, more financial stability than that. I was supposed to maybe own a home. I had this whole story built up in my head around the things that I was supposed to have, and here I was, this teenager, essentially, I was barely out of my teenage years with this child next to no money, struggling every day.And it became my whole identity. So I ended up getting married. We bought a house when I was 22. I had my own car by the time I was 25. We had two new cars in the driveway. Had another child at 26 and another at 30, and somewhere in there. I started to feel like I had made it, if you will, and I would look sometimes, and I'm so embarrassed by this, I'm still very embarrassed by this, although I forgive myself because I know where that has come from.But I'm gonna say it because I think this is still happening in different ways all over the place, and especially sort of like in the mommy circles, but. I would look at other people, say, I don't know, people maybe I went to high school with, or people that I saw down the street or whatever who were the same age as me who were struggling more than me, and I felt superior.Isn't that awful? you know, I'm somebody who lived on the street when I was a teenager, and here I was feeling superior, like I had made it, and I held my head up very high, and I was still nice to everybody, but in my head I was like, look at me. Look at me and how, successful I am in this role.And it was because the entire thing felt wrong and deep, deep, deep inside. I felt like a fraud. I was highly insecure, and you don't have to be a trans guy trying to live as a woman and a mother to feel that way. There are lots of people who come into money or come into fame or come into success of one kind or another, who deep down think to themselves, I don't deserve this.Everything's gonna fall apart in a heartbeat. That imposter syndrome is real and they're so scared of it. We, 'cause I was like, that are so scared of it, of this house of cards that we've built, so to speak, that we try to hold ourselves up at the top with our noses up in the air as much as possible. And a lot of people.Who might be listening to this right now are not going to like to hear that because it's gonna feel like I'm calling them out, and if it does feel like I'm calling you out, I'm probably calling you out.[00:11:21] Lara: I think so much of this comes from the fact that we are not supposed to be confident, but we are supposed to be confident, right?[00:11:30] Rowan: Yes. Yes.[00:11:32] Lara: We're taught both things at the same time. Therefore, I shouldn't think I'm too good at this, but I should want to be so good at this. And so like, you're constantly battling, am I good at this? I'm not good enough. Other people think I'm not good. I need them to think I'm good. I can't make it seem like I think I'm good.Like there's such a like snarl of. Emotions and ways we're supposed to feel. And certainly, you know, it's like that whole comparison issue where we're always thinking we're not measuring up to something while we're trying to be everything. So if we talk about parenting for a minute, right, like I certainly felt like I.Wasn't good enough as a parent in some ways, and really good as a parent in other ways. And then I'll have conversations with people and their perception of me as a parent and I'll be like, wow, you think something so different than I think, right? So as an example, I. Have never had like a ton of energy.I have never been the parent who's like, I'm gonna sign my kids up for a million activities. We're gonna sign them up for hockey and we're gonna have them in soccer. And there's like, you have multiple kids and you're constantly driving people around to different activities and like, that's okay because that's what it means to be a parent.And that's what it means to make sure that your children are having a good. Experience and I was like, I cannot, I used to joke when my kids were little, so I have three that each one could have one activity for one third of the year. Like I can handle one activity at a time.[00:13:10] Rowan: I did the same. By the way, I just want you to know samesies.Yeah. When you have that many children, you can't be like, yeah, you can all be in three different things or nobody sleeps or eats,[00:13:21] Lara: but some people do. Some people do that. They spend their whole life driving kids around and feeling like that's what it means to be a good parent. And whether they are or not, they put on a happy face.Like they love to do it I just didn't have that in me. However, once or twice a year we would go on a trip and I would very publicly post about it. I have a blog called Kids in the Capital, which I've had for 15 years now. And so activities that we did, I would always write about them because I had a blog about it.And so people would see these things that I was doing, and then I had people come up to me and be like, I can't believe how much you do. I was like, you. Have two kids in competitive hockey. What are you talking about? Like I'm doing things every once in a while and then posting about it and you have somehow made that into I am doing stuff all of the time.I wish I wasn't so lazy because I don't do anything for my kids. And I was like, holy cow, that is not what's happening at all. Like I. Do very little compared to you, but you see something and it feels like I should be doing that, and I see something and I think, oh, I should be doing that. I should be packing these like super fancy snacks when I go to the park for my kids instead of throwing them a bear paw.so the whole like, I should be good at everything. I'm not good at everything if somebody is doing something that sounds good. I should be doing that regardless of what else I'm already doing. Like all of these things and how we're supposed to be like superheroes and do everything means that we're setting ourselves up as I think is designed by society to be honest, to not think we've done enough.We've never done enough. We're never good enough.It's deflating. And so whether we then step into like, I need to tell you about what I'm good at, so that I feel better about myself, or we just sit around feeling bad about ourselves. None of that is, Hey, look at what I'm doing well and how great that is. I'm doing okay.[00:15:19] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. I think that.Arrogance really comes out of that exact thing where people are taught. And we go to school, for example, and we're taught, you know, oh yeah, your grades are great. Oh, except science. Your science grade is not what's, what's wrong? Why? Why aren't you doing well inside? Oh, your, music grade. Mm. What's going on there?Why is your music grade so low? Right? Like, so there's this. Expectation placed on us, like you said, where we have to be good at literally everything we do. We have to have everything figured out, and then we have to, I think, convince ourselves. And by convincing perhaps the people around us that we've made the right choices, that we've done the right things, that we are good enough, that we are successful enough, that we are happy enough you know, and you'll see this on social media you know, obviously a blog.You are recording what is significant to the blog, but you see this all over social media. Go on Instagram, you go anywhere. And it's this curated spectacle of someone's life. The vacations they've taken, all of the wins, their nice dates, all of their nice pictures as a family or whatever that looks like to them.Pictures of their dog, pictures of, something they just bought a car, a house, a boat, like whatever it might be, right? And you look at that and go, wow, that is a perfect life. Why is my life not like that? I have to somehow convince myself that I'm good enough and that my life is good enough and I have to do that too.That being said, forgive me for going off on a rant here, but getting closer to the microphone because this is something I have been dealing with for an eternity it feels like, but especially since I came out as trans. There is this idea we need to talk about selfies for a minute, and I'm gonna explain why.Because there's this idea as trans people now I'm gonna back that up. There are a lot of anti-trans people out there. We know that.[00:17:22] Lara: Yeah.[00:17:23] Rowan: And there are specifically a lot of stories told in those circles around trans people being so deeply unhappy. We post selfie after selfie, after selfie or talk about ourselves, incessantly or whatever, and they also frame it around.They use the term narcissist a lot, which again, second rant, calling someone a narcissist is just, so overused. There are people with narcissistic personality disorder. There is also narcissism that shows up in. Pretty much everyone's personality to some degree or another because it is a sliding scale, But the amount of times that I have outright been accused just me, and I'm one trans person of being a narcissist by, you know, the definition of narcissistic personality disorder is. Hundreds of times, at least. At least, because I dare post pictures of myself where I feel I look good and I want to show people that I am happy and comfortable in my skin.Now I do it sometimes 'cause I just like the way the picture looks and I'm like, this is a good picture. I wanna show people who've been following me my journey. Like, Hey, look at my facial hair that's growing in. Hey, I got a new haircut. Like whatever. A lot of times why I do it is because there are a whole bunch of people watching who have not come out yet who've not taken that step, who are scared.And I'm an older trans person. I'm in my forties, and so I, being able to see that is very helpful for them. I just got a message yesterday from somebody on Instagram who was like, I want you to know that. I am hoping to start my transition next year. I'm not quite ready to come out yet, but I follow you because you gimme so much hope.This happens all the time. But the idea for a lot of people is that I post these things because I am completely full of myself. What it really comes down to is. I feel really good these days and I love the way I look. not perfect. Could I wave a magic wand and change some things a hundred percent, but do I feel more confident and comfortable in my skin?Absolutely. Why do you think we look at somebody posting pictures of themselves, and we think that is an arrogant, narcissistic person and not like, oh, hey, good for that guy. He looks good today. he's smiling, he is happy and enjoying his life. I'm happy for him, or I don't really care. I'm just going to scroll on and not comment some horrible thing on his picture.[00:20:08] Lara: Yeah. I think some of the times it's because it's making them uncomfortable or it f eels like they're being called out. I would never do that. And I need to make myself feel good about the fact that I would never do that, instead of worrying that maybe there's a reason I'm too scared to do that. That's one way.I mean, another one is like I know that you threw a big birthday party. Not that long ago.[00:20:34] Rowan: Yeah.[00:20:35] Lara: And I think that it could be like, okay, you just informed everybody that you did this big party, and then I didn't do a big party for somebody I love and now I feel badly. Should I have done that?Oh, why do you have to go be bragging about how good you are at being able to do a party for somebody? And that is really not about you. That was entirely a me. Response. I didn't actually feel this way, but I've felt it about other things, right? Other things I've seen, right? Like people doing things again for their kids.'cause I have a lot of stuff when it comes to parenting. Like I think I'm a really good parent in one way, and then in this way I, I'm worried that I didn't do enough. I didn't do enough. So if somebody did something big, like a big birthday party for their kids, and I was like, oh, how about I get you a dinner out?I didn't buy a cake even because like , there was cake at the restaurant and I'm like, I love you. You know, I didn't go all out. Do I feel badly now? 'cause I see other people doing like the balloons on the door and like this whole thing, like a lead up for their birthday for weeks. And sometimes when I see people post things that seem really great, it feels like.You're telling me I suck for not having done that too, and that is not what they're doing. That is an entirely a me response. But that's sometimes what it feels like. Right? So when you see people getting really angry about people doing things, that's what I wonder. I'm like, what are you so insecure about right now that makes it feel like you need to get angry at that person for feeling good about something?[00:22:04] Rowan: Yeah, I think there's that for sure because I have felt that myself as well in various situations. I think the other thing is, you know, you want to talk narcissistic, and again, I'm not calling anyone a narcissist, but you wanna talk about being like really self-centered. There can be this idea of like, whoa.I have no desire to share my life online like that. None. I'm perfectly happy not doing that. So if you are doing that, there must be something wrong with you because you don't think the way that I think, and you are not doing the things that I do. And could you go deeper and go, maybe I think that there's a problem with me.Yeah. That could be the case sometimes, but I also think sometimes it's just like, well, this is the way you should be. This is the way I am, so why aren't you like that? And I get those comments a lot too. This sort of like bewilderment of like, well, why do you need to do that? what is broken inside of you?I'm concerned that, by the way, folks is called Concern trolling. Don't do that. Don't hide behind concern if you're just using judgment. But that is a thing that people do where it's like, well, I need to know what's wrong with you. What's really going on? You must be so unhappy to be doing that all the time.I can see the sadness in your eyes. Like, no, you can't. I felt on top of the world when I took that picture, my friend. There's no sadness in my eyes. This is joy, but you are seeing it. And that is the other thing is like the more that we can realize. All of us, myself included, the more we can realize that most of the issues that we have with other people, not all of the issues.There's some serious issues, some real hurt and damage that people cause, but outside of that, most of the issues that we seem to have with other people. Are coming from ourselves. It is really a reflection of how we see ourselves, how we see the world, what our own experiences are, what our own hurts and traumas are, what all of it all comes back to this little person inside me.Something happened to them at some point, and I am now reacting in this way because of that. Or I have lived a life like this. what you are doing is so outside of that life that I thought is like the normal life, right? That I can't relate to it and in fact find it threatening or disgusting in some way, but that has nothing to do with the other person.You see, for example, there's, you know, cross-dressing, and there's cross-dressing. Men, men who, you know, gender non-conforming men who love to wear dresses. And every time I see that I'm like, that is so cool. I love your dress. Like I'm thinking to myself. Right? But you have other people who go.That's so wrong. You're just trying to get attention by doing that. It's like, no. Maybe he's just genuinely happy to be wearing something he feels good in and we should just let him do that. It is never about the other person in that case, that is always about ourselves.[00:25:04] Lara: Yeah. This whole thing opens up a bigger conversation about lots of things. 'cause there's so many people who think they're doing the right thing. They've been taught to do a thing, they're doing the right thing. If you are not doing that thing, like you're supposed to do this.I wasn't allowed to do anything different. Why are you allowed to do something different? You shouldn't be. It's wrong, right? Like it's very black and white. I have been told, I know it's prescribed end of story, but I think knowing that. Practicing knowing that you are getting feedback from people that are saying like, it really helps me to see you.I know that I've had the same thing with people who have come to me because I talk about my A DHD because I talk about my endometriosis, right? Like those are two big topics I've talked about online a lot, and the amount of private messages I've gotten from people, like people who are saying, I was afraid to get a hysterectomy.Until you started talking about this, and now I'm booked in for one, that's a huge thing. Like you're saying to me that just because I talked about it, you suddenly were able to sort of wrap your head around it. Other people might be like, why are you talking about that? Nobody cares. Like, okay, well maybe you didn't care.[00:26:22] Rowan: Yeah. Well, I think they care enough to say something. 'cause I get that a lot too. Like, nobody cares how you feel today. Nobody cares what you look like. Nobody cares that you're trans. Right. Or whatever it might be. And it's like, well, I don't know. I feel like you definitely cared enough to stop in to tell me how much you didn't care.[00:26:41] Lara: Yeah. It's making you uncomfortable for some reason. And you might wanna look at that.[00:26:45] Rowan: Yeah. that's a gift of, getting older, right? Is realizing how much of it is somebody else's issue.[00:26:51] Lara: Mm-hmm. And being able to have these conversations, because I think that unless you are willing to sort of unpack it and look at it, you're gonna have some, like people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties who have never considered anything other than what they've always thought.But I think that there is the alternative where we get to have conversations like this. This is why I want to do things like this podcast, because I think until we have these conversations, until people hear that there is the possibility of thinking differently until people think, oh, I never thought about it that way, then they're not going to think about it differently.But if they're willing to say like, oh, what's a different point of view? What does that mean? I think that being able to talk about my A DHD without shame was really significant to some people. They're like, oh, you don't even feel bad about this. I'm like, not at all. I don't feel bad about it. There are a lot of things in my life I feel bad about.but a diagnosis of A DHD was not one of them. And so if they see somebody talking about it without it. Being a problem like that helps them. Like I am not being like, let me tell you how amazing I am because I have a DHD. I'm just like talking about a thing. And again, it makes some people uncomfortable.They say nobody cares, but they do. Like, they're uncomfortable. That's what's coming up. They're like, why are you talking about this? It's making me uncomfortable. Whether it's because, you know, talking about periods is supposed to make them feel gross or. They're supposed to feel bad about having a neurodivergence, whatever it is.Normalizing things like talking about things that are different, makes people uncomfortable when they think they're not supposed to. When they think they're not allowed to, when they I've been taught this is wrong, so stop it.[00:28:38] Rowan: Yeah, just again, it all comes down to insecurity, which again can breed arrogance.Judgment and arrogance are definitely cousins. They tend to hang out together a lot. because in order to be arrogant, again, you have to also be judgmental because arrogance is about comparison. So if I have a certain body, for example, and I am arrogant about that body, that is because I am looking at everybody else's body and going.Ha ha, suckers. You don't have my body because I'm better than you. I'm superior. Confidence also does not, ever mean that you think you are superior to other people. You might recognize your skills. You might recognize maybe your looks, you might recognize your success in some way and you might say, yes, I possess talents or abilities or whatever it is or something about being, genetics, whatever, right?That have allowed me to stand tall in some ways. But the other thing about confidence is, and this is something I had to work at as well so in, 2020. I had, you know, people talk about getting canceled. I essentially got canceled, if you will, on the Bird app. Okay. And it was a very hostile time.It was a hostile time for a lot of people. It was, you know, it was the pandemic. Everyone was stuck at home. Everybody was really stressed, people were laid off work. And I think a lot of people spent. Way too much time online. And during that time, some of my work, one of my books and who I am as a person and how I conduct myself in work you know, and the success that I had was all called into question, which I mean, can happen.And that's fine as a public figure of sorts. I'm used to that. But it snowballed very quickly into this, horrific onslaught of personal attacks and just went on and on for days and days and days and days, and I almost didn't make it out of that alive. I ended up gonna the hospital and getting a P-T-S-D diagnosis.So that was really not fun. What I learned from all that, I learned a lot of things, but one of the things that's very relevant to this is before that I was at. I would argue that , the top of my career, I had a number one bestselling book. it was a runaway success for the genre that it was. I had so many awards, honestly, that I had a hard time finding spots for them in my tiny little closet office.I had so many speaking engagements and podcasts and all these things lined up that I had to say no to a bunch of them. I mean, I was at the top of my game and. Then suddenly I was not. All of that fell. All of it crashed and burned. It didn't really crash and burn my career ended up being fine.Things ended up being fine, but at the time, the validation that I was getting out of all of those things, out of other people telling me that I was enough and other people. Picking me up and showing me that I was successful and giving me shiny plaques to put on my wall and that sort of thing.All of those recognitions I realized, could very easily be stripped from me because, I mean, look what just happened. . I lost the confidence and the trust of all these people because all these rumors and ideas about me started to circulate.That's when I realized that I was not confident in who I was in my career or as a person, because if I was confident, not that that wouldn't have hurt, I think that that would've hurt even the most confident person. The things that were said and done in that time were really, really awful, but it hit me extra hard.Because I wouldn't say I was arrogant. I didn't feel arrogant in that space, but I would say I certainly didn't feel confident in that space. And all of that was validation. What people thought about me and everything else was all validation, and I realized that true confidence would be I lose everything and I still love myself.I could have everything taken away from me, and I would still not think I was a terrible person. I might think, oh, I have some lessons to learn, or I made some mistakes, or the world was very unfair, or whatever, and this is hard and I'm sad, or I'm angry, but I still wouldn't hate myself.And in that time I hated myself because other people hated me. They really seemed to hate me, and I really took that on. So confidence is a lifesaver because I think if I had more of it, I wouldn't have ended up so close to not being alive anymore.[00:33:18] Lara: Yeah. And I do think confidence can be learned. Yes. I think some people are taught to be confident from the get go.I think some people are taught to not be confident from the get go and trying to figure out how to build confidence when you've never had it is challenging. If we go back to our selfies for a minute, which I think was an exercise for me, I took selfies a fair amount for a while. And it was an exercise in feeling more confident in who I am and what I looked like in putting myself out there and taking up space.All of those things. It was an exercise in that and I. Would ask people to take selfies with me. And some people would be like, oh no, I don't like selfies. I find selfies very vain. I find selfies, this and that. And I would have conversations with people and it was very fun when I could change their mind and then have them take a selfie with me because.When I said, listen, this is my way of trying to love myself more. This is my way of believing that I deserve to take up space. And I really think you need to reconsider the idea that anybody who is trying to put themselves out there is just doing it because they think they're the best thing ever.I can guarantee you that's not the case. Some people might just, I don't know, do that. I think most of them are doing it for a whole slew of reasons, but very few of them are doing it for the reason you've decided it means. And taking photos of myself helped me just be more comfortable with me, let alone love me more, just more comfortable with myself.And when you state it that way. People are like, oh, I never thought of it that way. I was like, I know. I didn't figure you had, because not a bad person. Like, let's just talk about what it means, because a lot of people will be like, oh, everybody's taking photos. The duck face was a big thing back then, I think.I'm like, why are people doing this? I was like, well, how about we do it too? How about we do it too? And that's it. Like I just think it was a way for me to gain more confidence. I think we can practice. I think things get easier. I used to. never think that I could be on video or do podcasts, and now I feel quite good about it, but it took practice, it took me doing it.And if we recognize that some of the things we see people doing are them just getting more comfortable with themselves, it's just them working on their confidence and that we wanna cheer them on for trying the things and doing the things and being themselves. Like that's something to cheer on, not be like, oh, why you doing that?[00:35:54] Rowan: I think that the more that we recognize as well, if somebody is being arrogant, that usually that is coming from a place of deep insecurity.[00:36:05] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:36:05] Rowan: It is much easier to just let that go. Right. Like I remember. Early on in the Facebook days when, you know, we would find our high school friends and we would all add each other.There was this one girl I went to high school with and all she did on her Facebook was talk about her new car and her nice house and how good she looked in a bikini and her husband like it was really overtly arrogant and not just like, here's a nice picture, you know, or Here's a new car I bought today.It was like, I'm doing so well that I can get this, like that was pretty much verbatim and I remember thinking about that and my first thought was, I feel like. A failure because I don't have all the things that she has at the same age. But then my next thought as I started to sit with it was, she must be really hurting inside.And I think I knew that because I was playing my own arrogance game in a different way. It was never with money, but it was, you know, with other things. Or at least not money like that. 'cause I never had money like that. But, you know, home ownership and that sort of thing. I definitely did that, but I just thought to myself like, she's, really struggling inside right now, I think.And so I never said anything. I never judged her for it. I just more felt sad for her that her life, probably her insides felt so empty that she had to. Try to feed that insecurity with other people's validation and envy. The more we can do that, the more we can see what's probably going on.When somebody is doing that, the more we can be there for them if and when they inevitably. Realize that they're not happy and that they don't like themselves and start to build themselves up from scratch. As a person who did that, I'm very, very grateful that the people around me showed me as much grace as they did, because I'm a far better person today than I was before, in part because I had all that support.[00:38:13] Lara: Yeah, and I think it's important to remember. None of us is perfect and like for the most part, again, I know this isn't true across the board, for the most part, people aren't trying to be bad people for the most part. We all have stuff that makes it hard to feel good all the time, and whether we really do feel good or we're pretending to feel good, like all of this is.Works in progress and I think I want more people to feel confident and I think the way to get there is to practice owning what they're good at. to practice even noticing what's gone well. Like something I do as a coach is I often ask people to start by telling me something that's gone well. The amount of people who don't know how to do that.Is really astounding to me, right? Like just like something that went well, something that you did that you're proud of, and they can do it for other people, but it's really hard for a lot of people to do it for themselves because I don't think we've been taught to do that. And so noticing what we're good at, again, I think confidence is something we look for and that we're taught to not have.And so. It requires us to practice saying like, you know what? This is something I'm really good at, I'm really good at. And the one that I usually tell people I'm really good at is I'm really good at hearing more than what people say. So I can feel like I'm translating English to English, right? So two people are talking to each other, completely misunderstanding each other, and I'll be like, what this person is saying is this, and this person is saying this.And they're both like, oh. Oh, okay. I'm really good at that. I confidently can tell you I am good at that, but it took practice by thinking of what I felt I was good at by starting to tell people what I thought I was good at. By saying it repeatedly, by owning it, it took time. And if you never allow yourself to go looking for what it is that you think you can say.I can confidently tell you I'm good at you. Just don't allow yourself to see it. You can't start feeling confident if you pretend that nothing's going on.[00:40:19] Rowan: Yeah, I'm really good at being good looking.[00:40:22] Lara: Of course you are.[00:40:24] Rowan: I kid. I kid, I kid, I kid. No, it is. Just had to throw that one out there.[00:40:30] Lara: But I can tell you what I think you are very good at.[00:40:33] Rowan: Ooh, I would love to hear it.[00:40:35] Lara: Yeah, you're very good at telling stories that make people understand things that they didn't understand before. Like an easy, relatable read that makes people feel seen and heard. And I'll go back, , I'm sure I mentioned this on a previous episode, but the very first time that I.Met you saw, you heard you speak, you talked about this whole in the grocery store buying bear paws and being judged by somebody. And I was like, I mentioned it earlier, right? I'm not packing the fancy snacks and so therefore, oh no, maybe I'm not good, right? And hearing a story where somebody's like, that's simply not true.Made me feel, seen and heard, and the amount of times that I've seen you tell stories so that people understand things in a way that feels easy. Like I hope you feel confident in your ability to do that.[00:41:22] Rowan: Thank you. I actually do. I recognize that in myself. I used to see it as a deficit though. So this is a lesson in confidence building.I have mentioned this before, but I graduated high school at 38 because when I was a teenager I was moving around so much from shelter to friends, couch to spare bedroom to all these different places and I just didn't finish. And then, as I mentioned on this episode, I had a baby. I got pregnant at 19 and I dropped out of high school at that point.'cause I had gone back to have this baby. So I went back at 38. I finished, and then I never went back to any kind of higher learning. And for a long time I thought to myself, Ugh, I'm not educated. I'm not an educated person. I was now entering this space of activism. My child had come out as trans.I was learning a lot about that. I ended up learning about myself in the process there too. And then I don't know what my messaging really started to take off. I started, talking about the experience of being a parent, of a trans person, of being a partner to a trans person, and like what that all looked like.And for whatever reason, that resonated really, really well with a lot of people outside of the L-G-B-T-Q community I had to take a look at that and realize that the reason was because I wasn't using a lot of big words. Put simply, I was putting it simply. I was just going, yeah, this is just me.This is how I talk now. This is gonna be how I write. I'm going to just tell you what this is like in very relatable language. You do not have to attend a university course to understand the words I'm going to use. If I do use a term that is trickier, I will identify that.Fairly quickly and explain it in simple terms. You don't have to do that work and we can get to the business of how do we treat human beings better. So yeah, I did learn that and once I figured out that it was not a problem, that I didn't go to school. It actually worked well.'cause I would've gone into those circles that I would've gone into academia and I know I would've started using bigger and bigger words. And there's no problem with that. I use academic language, I learn with it all the time. But the way that I now. Share that information is in a way that I think is accessible.So, yeah, we all have our strengths, right? It's so easy to look at what we haven't done and what we're not good at. And when somebody gives us a compliment or something to go, oh, well, you know, I mean, thanks, but then list off five other things that you don't feel good about to try and bring yourself back down.Don't do that. Don't do that. First of all, learn to say thank you to everybody's compliments. When they compliment you, say thank you and smile. That's a really hard thing.[00:44:24] Lara: It is a really hard say, and I'll say I had to work on that for a long time, and I admit that in the beginning my thank yous didn't sound particularly confident and be like, thank you.Right? I'm practicing saying thank you. I feel wildly uncomfortable about it, but thank you. But it did get easier.[00:44:42] Rowan: It does get easier. I know I had a friend who was very strong-willed and she's like, Rowan, when I give you a compliment. You're going to say thank you.So she actually taught me to do it. I was a little scared of her. She's like, okay, alright, fine. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And then I just, but over time I was like, oh, thank you, thank you. You know, and I think like going to book signings and stuff too, and like hearing from person after person about what my work means.You start to have to say, I mean, I don't always feel it. Maybe I'm having a bad day or something, but I still say thank you. But really what it comes down to is just. It's okay to feel good about things to be proud of. Things that you have accomplished, things that you like about yourself.It's okay to say, I like my eyes. Sure. You had nothing to do with your eyes. That's all genetics, right? I mean, unless you got some Botox or something and you know, you do you, it is absolutely okay to like things about yourself and not apologize for it.[00:45:42] Lara: It is. I think acknowledging it takes practice.Acknowledging that there are steps to it, letting yourself start to consider it. All of those things are steps into confidence. Another thing that I sometimes say when somebody compliments me, and I don't fully believe it, is I receive that.[00:46:03] Rowan: I love that.[00:46:04] Lara: I'm not gonnaargue with you. But I do hear you. I receive it.[00:46:08] Rowan: I receive that. I'm gonna try that sometime. That's, fantastic. This has been a really good conversation. I think we're both really passionate about this topic. We've both been on the other side of it and are working towards the more confident side of things.I feel very confident now wrapping this up. What about you?Me too. I think this was a really good episode and I hope people enjoy it and tell us so.Yeah, tell us what you think. One thing that really helps us is we have a substack an unboxing substack. If you went and subscribed to that substack.We would really appreciate it. You also get sort of some primary access to certain things. You can comment on stuff more. You can give us ideas. You get access to our newsletter. I mean, there's so many different ways to show up. It helps us continue to build this podcast, be able to do it all the time, be able to bring you our confident, more confident than we used to be, at least happy, happier than we used to be, at least selves.[00:47:10]Lara: Absolutely. I love it. I think this is good. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

As Rowan and Lara know all too well, life isn’t always fair. We wish it was, but since it isn’t, we tackled ways we can make the best of situations that don’t feel just. We mostly did this with butter tart and cupboard door examples, though we didn’t always see eye to eye on some key points in said examples (don’t get Rowan started on the importance of the butter tart unless you want a debate on your hands).Let us know in the comments if you have anything to add to the conversation (about fairness OR butter tarts. Just… remember how sensitive Rowan is).Things we referenced in the episodeEpisode on Unexpected ChangeDoo Doo’s BakeryWant more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.TranscriptPlease note : we don’t edit these automatically generated transcripts carefully so there may be some errors. 00:00:00] Rowan: A lot of life is things that happen to us. And a lot of what kind of joy and happiness and connection and peace that we find is how we choose to deal with those things. . Thanksfor joining us on this week's episode of Unboxing It. I'm Rowan.[00:00:41] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:42] Rowan: And today we're talking about a topic that it's a thing that I say all the time and I have to check myself, but fairness, and you know when something happens and you go. That's not fair. Mm-hmm. That's not fair.Right?[00:00:58] Lara: Yeah, it's not fair. It's a big feeling that can be really crushing or just like veer you off when you feel it.[00:01:10] Rowan: It's that sense of injustice for me. And I think in part, like, I wanna talk about why we chose this topic. We chose it because there's this idea when we're growing up, I think that life should be fair.That everything should be balanced. You know, and, I wanna preface this by saying I'm a human rights advocate, so I am all about equity. I want to see people have the same opportunities as other people, no matter who they are, where they come from. And I will continue to always fight for that, but in my own life.I can feel a sense of injustice, like it is nobody's business. I do not like injustice when I feel that something isn't fair. I haven't been given a fair shake. I've been dealt a worse hand than somebody else. I can stew in that for days sometimes. I don't know about you,Lara.[00:02:12] Lara: Yeah, I think it's really easy to get into this really angry place where it's not fair, how come I have to deal with this and you don't have to deal with this? why am I dealt this hand? And it's difficult to get through it when you feel like that. That's one of those things that brings up resentmentsomething that I think just poisons everything. Whenever you're in a moment of resentment, I think something needs to be fixed, which is, you know, all part and parcel of this conversation. What does it mean when something isn't fair? What do you do when something isn't fair? Do you have to accept that life isn't fair and just like let everybody rumble over you?Or are there solutions, like what is the solution? So I think that's what we're gonna get to dig into because. There's lots of ways to look at this. There's lots of ways to think about this. There's a lot of ways to feel about this and I never think there's just one way through. So we're gonna talk about the different parts, the different strategies, the different ways to internalize all of this.[00:03:17] Rowan: Where do you think the idea, like did you get your sense of fairness? Do you think It's taught to us by our parents. Do you think it's taught to us by school or the media? What do you think?[00:03:29] Lara: Probably all of the above, right? again, just like all kinds of things, what we're taught in the words and then what we see in action are not always the same, right?So like everything needs to be fair. There's law, there's judges, there's rules. And so we talk about it and I think this is probably one of the ways that we get all messed up about it, is we talk about it as in everything should be fair. Everything has a way of being. Everything has rules and rights and wrongs.And then because in life that actually isn't true, right? Like there's so many gray areas, there's so much wiggle room on all of the sides that what we were told doesn't play out in real life. And so it feels like we're making a mistake. It feels like something isn't working when really. It was never meant to be that black and white.[00:04:23] Rowan: Ooh.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think morals, we're taught morals, right? The difference between right and wrong, and I. I was raised Catholic, so that was drilled into me this idea. I mean like, look what Eve did with the Apple while she broke that rule. Well, obviously they should be cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffer.Right? and that sort of permeates a lot of my thoughts around fairness. So, Again, I, want to say that privilege is a real thing and that there are people born into or find themselves in situations that are unjust. Like they don't get, the same starting point as someone else. Like I have very, very fair skin and I do not have to deal with racism, for example. And if somebody has to deal with racism that is truly unjust, that's not fair. And the fact that they can't, I. Have the same opportunities sometimes, or not have them as easily as I can because of the color of their skin is not right.but I think what I wanna talk about more than that, because we have to keep fighting for equity. I, I truly believe that I. What I wanna talk about more is like when things happen to us personally, like a job loss or an illness or a breakup, or you know, just something that happens to us that maybe isn't happening to other people around us and maybe is, nothing to do with any decisions that we have made.Any choices, any actions that can feel. Hugely unfair and I wanna explore how to deal with that.[00:06:06] Lara: Yeah. So first, again, I think you and I are very much on the same page when it comes to privilege and understanding that there are things that should be improved in this world, but when it comes to what we have control over and how we can navigate certain conversations, I think it is a really big.Important conversation and knowing that what feels unfair to us probably doesn't feel unfair to somebody else is also important, right? Like what feels fair and unfair might not be that black and white thing. So being able to think through what we're feeling, what other people are feeling, what the stories we're telling are around it, and how to navigate that is part of this.[00:06:47] Rowan: I would love to know,like, can you think off the top of your head of an example of something that maybe might feel unfair to me, but feels perfectly fine for you?, Not us specifically, obviously, but like what do you have an idea of like what that might feel like? I do, I have one that I can share.And that is, I have somebody who. Talked to me recently about his job loss, and he said, you know, I lost my job and I've lost my job before. And I felt that was very unfair. And he lost his job. And he was like, well, that's just the way business is sometimes. and people downsize.And honestly, I wasn't very happy there anyway. And so it just created an opportunity for me. And he sort of went on about that, right. But I was like, wow. Like you didn't have even a moment of being angry and he is like, no, I was more like relieved than anything. So that, I think it just depends on how you look at things sometimes, maybe.[00:07:43] Lara: Yeah. I mean, that's a really interesting one because part of the reaction to the same situation was based on how. You felt going into it, right? So if you're like, I didn't really like this job anyway, what a relief that I don't have to quit. I don't have to tell people that I quit a perfectly good job with nothing lined up after because it wasn't my fault because they downsized me, right?Like it becomes this freedom giving situation, whereas to somebody else who wanted to stay in that job, it does not feel like that at all. And. Is that a fair or unfair thing, or is it just a how you react to a thing that happened to you and you know, is it fair if you were downsized because honestly the company was in, a lot of financial trouble and they truly needed to downsize?Or if they downsized, you just downsized, quote unquote, as an excuse to get rid of somebody that they just. Didn't want around anymore. And you know that, right? Like there are differences other than just straight they downsized. That would help make you feel fair or unfair. But I also think a lot of peopletend to lean one way or the other, like when things happen, it's unfair, or when things happen. I guess we figure out what comes next, right? Like there are different ways that people tend to feel and think in a common way. Does that make sense?[00:09:10] Rowan: Oh, it makes total sense. I mean, I know I started this by saying that when I feel something's unfair, I can stew in it for days.And, that is still true to some extent. I can have these situations where I'm like, oh, it's not fair. It's not right, and I'm really angry about it, and I can stay there for a while that resentment can build and that's something that I am working on as a human being. But there also have been plenty of times in my life where I have had something unfair or what I might feel is unfair happen to me and.I recognize fairly quickly that this is something that has pushed me outta my comfort zone. That's why I'm upset about it, and that it can be, if I leverage it properly, an opportunity for personal growth. And that includes the illnesses that I have because I live with some chronic illnesses I know that chronic illnesses suck.Honestly, it's not fun to have them. If I could wave a magic wand, I certainly would get rid of them. It's not like I want to keep them around, but I have them. So now that I have them and there's nothing I can do about it, and yeah, it's not fair that I have them, I also can look at it as, what can I learn from this?What can I learn about myself? How can I challenge myself? How can I take steps to make my life better while living with this illness? And I think that is how I manage a lot of those things that happened to me that frankly would've knocked me down a few years ago and I would've not have known how to get back up.Well, it sounds like a Chumba, Womba song, but here we're. Gen X humor, everybody.[00:10:50] Lara: There you go. And, and as you were talking, the thing I was thinking about too, that I feel most often that I get stuck in it not being fair is also health, right? Like illnesses. It's like it's not fair that I have been dealt the hand that I've been dealt.It's not fair that some of my family members have been dealt the hand that they've been dealt. Like it's not fair, but also like that's not a thing anybody can change. like it isn't fair, but also nobody specifically did this to us. Like it's not a person who was like, you know what? And that they can change it.And so based on what's true, even if it's sucks, what do I want to feel? Do I wanna be angry about it or do I wanna figure out what to do In this case so that I don't feel angry about it.[00:11:40] Rowan: Yeah. At the end of the day, do I want to harm myself further living with anger, living unhappily,and the answer to me is, no, no. I want to move through those feelings. I wanna acknowledge those feelings. And I think no matter how much work we do on ourselves, there's not a second where I would say to people, oh yeah, immediately when something happens to me that is awful.I go, oh, this is a great growth opportunity. No. Now that comes after my very, very human feelings, my very immediate reaction of, no, this isn't right. I'm so upset that this is happening. Then after that, once I allow those feelings, and I will sometimes just consciously say to myself, let the feeling move through you.Don't hold it back. Don't try to talk yourself out of it. Literally let it go through your body and out of your body, because if I don't do that, it gets stuck in my body. And again, with chronic illness, that's not something that's good because stress could exacerbate a lot of that, right? So I have to let those feelings out and then I can pick up the pieces after everything and start working through things again.[00:12:58] Lara: I think we talked about this in our episode about unexpected change because I know somebody mentioned this whole it's okay to feel the feelings came up then too, and I think that that is huge, that letting yourself feel the feelings that it's okay to be upset, that it's okay to be sad, that you don't need to pretend you're fine all of the time.Hugely a part of this. Let yourself have emotions. The more you let yourself have the emotions and let them be okay and let yourself sort of resolve them, the less you're going to have that stewing mentality, right? Like, I'm not saying, okay, feel the feelings and keep them in forever. You deserve to get to do that you know, let yourself feel them and then. I believe mindset, beliefs are hugely important and if we understand that so much can be easier for us because mindset and how we step throughwhat our life is,if we have a bad mindset, it's harder. Like, do you know what I mean? Like all things being exactly the same.If we can figure out what we have control over and take action based on what we have control over, we can make a situation better without somebody else having to realize they were wrong without somebody else having to apologize, right? without somebody else, whoever it is having to do anything.There are some things that just based on how we feel and think about things can make our lives easier.[00:14:31] Rowan: Yeah, One of the things I had tolearn and really acknowledge and it's not a nice thing, but life isn't fair. And I'm not saying that like my grandpa would say it, right?Well just suck it up because life isn't fair, but truly. Truly, really, life isn't fair. The first mindset shift for me is acknowledging that life isn't fair and not to expect it to be fair. I can still fight for equity, I can still fight for people's rights. I can still fight to get what I feel I deserve in life for sure.But as a general rule, if you just watch a Nature documentary and you will see it, clear as day. Life is not set up to be fair. It is set up to be challenging. For whatever reason, whether you call that, divinity or whether it's just the universe created this chaotic planet that we live on.Life is about struggle. In part, it's also about joy and happiness and all those things, but those things we tend to create ourselves. A lot of life is things that happen to us. And a lot of what kind of joy and happiness and connection and peace that we find is how we choose to deal with those things.[00:15:46] Lara: Yeah, I think that one of the biggest differences can also be if you think life is happening to you, I think I might have said this in a different podcast too. Is life happening to you or are you happening to life? And soyou don't have control if it's happening to you.You have more control if you're like, I am happening to it.So just that small difference of not feeling like you have any ability to control a situation, to thinking you do have ability, even if it's just to be like, I'm not gonna let this ruin my day, or I'm not gonna let it ruin my year. Right? Like, it's okay if it ruined my day, but we're not gonna let it ruin.Everything else moving forward and deciding what you wanna do about that. Okay, so here's a silly example, but it is one of the ones I feel like happens in our house about what's not fair. So let's say I bought a pack of six Butter Tarts.[00:16:37] Rowan: I love Butter Tarts. So go on.[00:16:40] Lara: There's five people in my family, but one person doesn't like butter Tarts, so that's okay.So now there's.Six butter tarts and four people, whogets a second one?[00:16:49] Rowan: Well, that's the no, you, you send them to me. Obviously you send me the extras, but, but if you can't do that, who does get the extra?[00:16:58] Lara: And so we have a tendency to have things like, okay, so within a certain timeframe, if you want another one ask, we'll split it.If you were one of the four people and by day three you didn't even eat your first one, I think you're out.[00:17:12] Rowan: Right? Yeah. That's the role we had in our big family too. It is. Growing up it was like that. And with my own family of six, it was like that same thing.[00:17:20] Lara: Right? But the feeling is it's not fair that I didn't get mine.I was like, well, it's not fair that you left it on the counter taunting us.[00:17:28] Rowan: Right. Agreed.[00:17:30] Lara: And so what is the solution? The solution could be that if you know you really want it, that you're gonna take it out of the box, you're gonna put it in a container, you'll put your name on it, and you're gonna say, this one's mine. I have set it aside. It's for me. I don't wanna eat it right now, but I know I want it.If you just assume that we're gonna sit there and look at it for days and days and days without finally giving into the temptation of eating it because you don't seem to want it. I think that's on you.[00:17:55] Rowan: First of all, I don't understand anyone who can look at a butter tarp for three days and not eat it, but, you know,[00:18:01] Lara: fair enough.[00:18:01] Rowan: You, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's true, right? Like it's about taking that action no matter what I you have to take some action. It's also really, about knowing what you can control and what you can't control. So I might not be able to control. That I, you know, am sick with something.But I can control what I do about that. You know, do I follow my doctor's advice, yes or no? Do I take supplements? Yes or no? I find moments of happiness and joy and actually seek those out? Whenever I feel I need to, yes or no, do I find ways to live in ways, you know, that suit me where I'm at today, yes or no?Those are all things that I have control over and they make the situation feel less unjust, right? It makes me feel like I am still living with the situation that I have been presented with the things that I can't control.[00:18:59] Lara: Yeah. And if you believe that some of the things are happening to you, we're gonna go back to the butter Tarts for a minute, but if you believe that the fact that somebody ate the Butter Tart that was supposed to be yours was really disrespectful and really rude and unkind,[00:19:15] Rowan: I mean it is, but go on..[00:19:15] Lara: You're gonna be like, angry and full of like, like this? And you think they really wanted it, and they figured I didn't. And both of those scenarios could happen, right? With nothing being different. The person who didn't get a Butter Tart could feel really angry and resentful and feel like other people were being unfair to them.Or they could be like, oh, I guess I didn't get one. maybe next time I'm gonna say, you know what, last time I didn't get any, I'm gonna get an extra one. Whether or not that works out in the Battle of the Butter Tarts is another conversation. But you like, that's a thing you could say in response.[00:19:55] Rowan: Exactly. you're bringing up a really sensitive topic for me.[00:19:58] Lara: The Butter Tarts. I know. I'm sorry.[00:20:00] Rowan: I mean, that would be a situation that challenged me. There's this place, , about an hour. I'm, I'm going off on a journey now. There's this place about an hour from Toronto East called Dodos Bakery.Shout out Dodos Bakery. It's in the middle of nowhere, and you pull up and they have truly the best butter tars I've ever had. But you don't even have to take my word for it, because there is literally a wall. Of awards like medals, medal after medal after, pin, after trophy. I mean, it's so impressive because of Butter Tarts are freaking amazing.They're so good. If somebody ate my butter Tart because I didn't eat it for a day or two, my dooo butter tart. there would be war in my house. There would be war. Because I'd be like, no, you should all know that I love Butter Tarts and how dare you not check in with me. there, there are just, there are just some things you can't control my friend and that might be one of them.[00:20:59] Lara: Yeah. Again, I wanna be like, did you buy the Butter Tarts? If you bought the Butter Tarts? Then people should understand that they are mostly your butter tarts.[00:21:08] Rowan: This, this is actually an episode on Butter Tarts. It's not,[00:21:11] Lara: It's an episode on butter tarts..[00:21:13] Rowan: It's actually just about butter. Oh. What is a butter tart for people who are not Canadian?Okay. Think. Pecan pie or a sugar pie or something along those lines. Butter tarts. They're a Canadian staple. They're very sweet. They're made with like maple syrup and butter, and they have a nice little crust and they're delicious. Yeah, definitely look them up.They're yummy, yummy, yummy. And sometimes they have things like pecans and sometimes they have raisins, and there's a lot of debate about that. But that is a whole different episode.[00:21:42] Lara: Yeah, because it isn't actually an episode about Butter Tarts. It's just a really you know, what I liked about the Butter Tart example is it really isn't super consequential, right?So if we think about life and fairness, okay, I'm sorry Rowan's face, for those who can't see it disagrees that butter tarts, not that consequential.[00:22:01] Rowan: Very consequential,[00:22:04] Lara: but it's not like a high stakes. Situation, right? Like losing a job. But we still can get really upset about it. And when we talk through like the littler things and what it means to us and how we feel about it and why we feel that way, because some of it, when it's not fair takes on.That's what the whole stories we tell the meaning now is, you don't respect me. You think you're more important than me, or you don't even think about me. And so that is a really big meaning you're putting on, you ate my Butter Tart.[00:22:37] Rowan: Yep.[00:22:38] Lara: And sometimes you can think about it with these small examples because when you think about the big examples, the feelings, imagine, right?If you feel that way about somebody eating your butter tart, if you're talking about something. Way more consequential in your life. It's gonna be even more filled with emotions and harder to sort of see the other side.[00:22:57] Rowan: Well, we kind of, you know, I had a roommate at one point who, wouldn't do the dishes.not always. Sometimes they would do the dishes, but most of the time I would be doing the dishes and. It was very easy for a while for me to look at that as, this person doesn't care. This person just doesn't care if it's messy. This person doesn't respect me.I have made it clear that this is really important to me, that I can't be doing this all the time. That we have to share that. You know? And I kind of went on about, and I created this whole story in my head about how this person, I think towards the end of it, it was like they get up, they throw their dishes on the counter.And they kinda go, eh, who gives a crap? And then they just like, you know, and it's like, because they just don't care at all. But I don't wanna speak too much for this person, but like, they had other things going on. There were a lot of other things going on, mental health things you know, and neurodivergence and, things that sort of made it so that they were not looking at chores in the house in the same way that I was. It had nothing to do with how they saw me, how much they respected me or didn't how much they cared about our home or didn't. It had everything to do with where, they were in life. And was it fair that I had to clean up more than they did?No, it wasn't fair. In a very fair situation, we'd be doing half and half, but it wasn't because they were trying to get away with something and they were carrying a very big load in their own life. And it was, you know, honestly, once I realize that so much easier, just go, oh, you know what? They're not able to get to it today.I'll do it. I think it can be very easy when things don't feel fair to fall into a victim mentality.[00:24:49] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:24:50] Rowan: When we tell ourselves all those stories, all the things you were saying, all the things I was just saying, , that's a victim mentality. Right. To stay stuck in it is a victim mentality and approaching life from that.Standpoint from a lot of experience is one of the worst things you can do because it doesn't make anything more fair. It just makesyou feel a whole lot worse.[00:25:13] Lara: And I agree with everything right down to, you know, somebody not even realizing they're doing something. But knowing that somebody might receive it as a very intentional slight, right.So I told you that it's important for me to do the dishes, and if you don't do them, it feels disrespectful. And the other person being like, I didn't do the dishes right. Like, as clear as Oh.. so one of the things I remember I was very lucky. I had a roommate for a couple of years and we didn't.Have a lot of conflict. But I remember one day she was like, why do you leave all of the cabinet doors open all the time?And I was like, I do. Right? Like it wasn't like intentionallybeing like, how about I make this kitchen look silly with all of the cabinet doors open so you can see inside and then just being in the way.It's like for me, I opened it, I took the thing, and then like I was done and no part of me remembered to close it. And I know that other people feel this way. And it's so funny now every time I walk into my kitchen and every single cabinet door is open, because I know it was probably multiple of my family members came into multiple cabinets.None of them remembered to close the cabinet doors. And it was, it's such a big thing that I know happens in my family that when we had our big renovation, I said, are there self-closing cabinets? And she said, no. Very disappointed.[00:26:35] Rowan: And you know what? My partner does that too. Ialways know when she's been in the kitchen, because there is at least.One cabinet or one drawer that's left open. And I also go around the house and turn off lights after she's been in a room. The other day I asked her to turn off the light in the bathroom. Our bathroom has multiple lights. There's like a light for around the vanity. There's a light above the bathtub and there's a light in the shower.And she said, no problem. I'll turn off the lights when I'm done. So I left afterwards and I, went downstairs and said, I'm very proud of you. You turned off the lights. The vanity lights. You did however, leave on the light above the bathtub, the light in the shower.That's okay. Because you thought to yourself, I don't want Rowan to have to run around and turn off all the lights. You forgot a couple, but I really appreciate that you did that. I could have turned around and been like. You left the lights on again. You know, like, it's such a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it's just an example of like, I saw that and I went, she really did try, you know, like she really did try and I appreciate that she made the effort, even if I had to still go and turn off the lights after,[00:27:53] Lara: because I think a lot of the time, probably not all of the time, but a lot of the time, the thing that.Doesn't feel fair is also about feeling disrespectful, right? Like, that person doesn't respect me enough to do this thing. And if that's not actually the case, right? Like it just, it lets you take some of the gasoline out of the fire when you think, okay. Yeah, this isn't fair, but what can we do? And so, and the other is the what can we do, right?I mean, the perfect solution would've been those self-closing cupboards that I said I wanted, right? Yes. Like what can we do? Like, have them all close themselves, right? Like every 20 minutes if there's still open, like close 'em. Fantastic. It could be that, you know, splitting chores in a way where it's, , you know what, I'll do all the dishes, but can you do all the garbage?And in that situation, maybe the other person doesn't mind doing the garbage. It's easy for them to do it. You don't mind doing the dishes. They hate doing it. Like, what is the solution that you can find where it doesn't have to be, you know, that, image, you probably have seen it where the imagery is like a fence and you're looking over at, let's say a baseball game and everybody has a like one foot step stool to look over the fence. But one of you is five feet tall. One of you is six feet tall, and one of you is seven feet tall. Very tall people.[00:29:14] Rowan: That's Bigfoot at that point, by the way.[00:29:16] Lara: But there are seven feet tall people, foot tall people.[00:29:18] Rowan: I suppose it's true.[00:29:19] Lara: But standing on the step stool is not gonna do the same thing if the fence is six and a half feet tall and you stood on a one foot step stool,[00:29:30] Rowan: right. And[00:29:31] Lara: you're five foot tall.So it's not all about just doing what's equaland what's fair isn't always just what's equal.[00:29:41] Rowan: That's right. That's right.[00:29:42] Lara: And so. When you think about it and when you think like, how do I adjust for a person, if I feel like it's not fair that something is happening, can we adjust it so that it works for both of us? Most of the time people aren't trying to be shitty to you. Like I know sometimes they are, but most of the time it's not intentionally shitty.It's, well, this is what works for me.[00:30:07] Rowan: That's right. A lot of the feelings that come aboutwhen it comes to fairness have to do with the story we're telling ourselves. So what can really help me on top of, you know, before I'm able to calm down enough to come up with solutions, and you have some very good solutions there.What helps me is. Asking myself, what do I know is true about this situation and what am I making up right? So what I know is true, for example, in the case of the roommate, is the dishes are not being done equally. I am doing most of the dishes. Everything else is something that I'm telling myself that is a story.now, I could also say, and my roommate is home a lot more than I am, and still the dishes are not being done. That part might also be true. I have also talked to my roommate and things have not gotten better. Also true, but any feelings, any assumptions that I'm making about why the dishes aren't being done.That's all made up or how that reflects upon me and how this person sees me also made up, right? So I have to remove all of the emotion and just look at the facts. And if I look at the facts, it takes the edge off. And then I can start finding out why. Now, why isn't this happening? Why not? What I've made up in my head, I'm not gonna go to the person and go, and you just don't care enough to do this, right?Because that's, I don't know that. I'll use another example. So as a bigger person, and we talked about this on our fatness episode, but as a larger person. I was taught for a long time by society, by medical professionals, pretty much that anything that happens that is bad in my body is because I'm a bigger person.Mm-hmm.So, you know, I broke out in a rash recently, this like really awful rash all over my arms and my first thought was it's because I'm not taking care of myself. Right. that's not helpful. Like that's not gonna help me, right? So I have to be able to step back and go, no.What's actually going on? All I know is I broke out in this rash. Is it because of something I'm doing? I don't know. Is it because of something I'm not doing? I don't know. And it turned out it was an infection that really had nothing to do with me, but for like three or four days, I had convinced myself this was somehow my fault and I had to fix it.And finally my partner was like, can you just go to the doctor and stop being a stubborn man? Like, just go to the doctor. The doctor's like, here's some antibiotics. And then it went away, right? But that's the story of this. Stories are so powerful, and that's an example of how I suffered for another several days because I assumed it was me and I could somehow fix the problem by treating my body better.So when we're talking about. How to look at a situation, whether it is fairness or anything else. It's really important to take the story element out.[00:33:16] Lara: Yeah, the story is huge and , let's say what you think is happening is even true. we're gonna talk about dishes some more.Podcast episode about Butter Tart and dishes. And I once was talking to somebody who really wanted their partner to do more of the dishes and she said when they do the dishes, they like clank around and they seem really hostile. And so then I end up taking back over and I was like, well, what if you just decide that they really like doing dishes aggressively?And leave them alone to do it how they want,the responsibility of them doing the dishes and being happy about it, like Right. Versus doing the dishes because you asked them to. Right. Like, that's two different asks and it, they don't have to enjoy it for it to be fair that they did it.[00:34:06] Rowan: Yeah. That's the other thing, like, don't make other people's emotions your responsibility.Obviously we don't wanna hurt anybody, right? Like, I don't wanna go outta my way to make someone feel bad, but people don't have to like the work that they do around the house either. I don't exactly like the work I do around the house. but I do it. So I think that's a really good point.you're just smart. Except for the butter tart thing. 'cause I, I do still, I disagree with you there, that that's a very serious injustice. When somebody does eat the butter tarts that are supposed to be yours. But I digress. fairness. life is not fair. ButI think if I've takenanything out of this episode,it's to r emind myself when I feel that things are unfair,take a step back and takemy own advice andyours and reallypay attention to the story I'm telling myself around the perceived injustice, andalso feel my feelings and then do what I can about it.[00:35:13] Lara: Yeah, I think that's great. This has been a good conversation.I would like to invite people to come into the comments on our substack and tell us if you have anything to add to it. Something that I have very much enjoyed since we launched the podcast is all the people who come to me and tell me. I was listening to this episode and I was thinking this, and I have this thought and I had this counterpoint, and so I love that the podcast is getting people thinking.And I wanna keep hearing from more people what it is that it's getting them thinking. 'cause I think that will be fodder for more episodes and follow up episodes.[00:35:47] Rowan: Absolutely. I would love to do an episode where we get people's thoughts on other episodes their ideas, their takes on things, and talk about those because we don't know everything.We're just two people.[00:36:00] Lara: With lotsof thoughts![00:36:01] Rowan: We have lots of thoughts. You have even more thoughts, so please do share them with us, and thank you for joining us on this episode. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Lara here. Rowan and I have had interesting educational journeys - both for ourselves and for our children. That made interviewing Stephanie Sewell to talk about education and how it doesn’t need to look one specific way to have value something we had to unbox.During this interview (our second interview ever!) we talk about why school can feel hard for students (and why it might have felt hard for us), why school isn’t as important as we often make it out to be and how nontraditional education can look. Rowan and I both talk a bit about what school was like for us and how choosing a different path has helped us be more successful adults. We hope you enjoy the episode and would love if you shared any questions or your own experiences in the comments!A bit about Stephanie: As an alternative education consultant and mentor, Stephanie Sewell works with families and educational institutions who are seeking guidance and support. To create alternative educational paths for children and teens. Stephanie's approach is rooted in wellbeing and puts a strong focus on mental health. Her special areas of expertise are self-directed learning in both school learning centers and home settings.Stephanie believes that each young person deserves and is capable of co-creating an educational path that works for them.Transcript(please note, we do not carefully edit these transcripts so there might be errors)[00:00:00] Lara: Hey everyone. Lara here.Today's episode is all about education and we do talk a fair amount about what education could look like for your kids, but we also hope that what you take from this conversation helps you think maybe differently about education in general or maybe a little bit about how your own education, went. We look forward to hearing what you think.Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara. And I'm Rowan. And we are back this week to talk about something that is near and dear to both Rowan and I's Heart, which is around talking about education and how it doesn't always need to look the same. And we have our second. Ever guest, and this is somebody who has personally helped me and my family navigate a world where we took some different steps through what people think of when it comes to conventional education.And I am really looking forward to this conversation. So let me start by introducing our guest and then we'll jump right in. As an alternative education consultant and mentor, Stephanie Sewell works with families and education institutions who are seeking guidance and support. To create alternative educational paths for children and teens. Stephanie's approach is rooted in wellbeing and puts a strong focus on mental health, her special areas of expertise are are self-directed learning in both school learning center and home settings.Stephanie believes that each young person deserves and is capable of co-creating an educational path that works for them.Welcome, Stephanie. I'm really excited to talk with you about this subject that I think is really important and interesting and that I don't think a lot of people have had the opportunity to really think about because.School is just thought of as school. And I know Rowan, you were instrumental in helping me when one of my kids was really struggling. And that is actually how I came to meet Stephanie. And that was like, I don't know, eight years ago. Like it's all coming together. So, let's talk a bit about this because like I said, Rowan and I both.I've experienced not taking traditional paths and I think it's, just an important conversation.[00:02:42] Stephanie: I'm super glad to be here 'cause I think it is a really important conversation and One of the most difficult things to deal with when school's not working for your kid or when you've been homeschooling and suddenly that's not working.One of the most difficult things to deal with is the fear that you as a parent are messing up because it's so important to us, of course, that we do the best for our kids, and education is really important, and we're used to education needing to look like the conventional school route or the conventional school at home kind of route.And so when. That's not going well. It's really, really concerning for a parent, and it can be a real situation of crisis.[00:03:23] Rowan: And let's talk about the idea of conventional education and how, you know, one of the things that we try to do on this podcast actually, the, entire basis for this podcast is to look at what are considered societal norms, societal rules, What happens when they're not working for us and in fact can be harmful? can you talk a little bit about, the conventional school system and, how that doesn't work for everybody?[00:03:51] Stephanie: Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to a relative about the work that I do recently, and he said, but why is this such an issue now?Like, 40 years ago. This wasn't a thing. Lara, did you wanna jump in?[00:04:03] Lara: Oh, I just, I mean like there are so many things where people are like, oh, how come this is all of a sudden a problem? Like it was already a problem. We just never talked about it. It was always a problem. There were just people like dropping out of school.There were just people having a terrible, terrible time, and we decided that they should just get out of our sight and we could ignore that they were there. But it was always happening. So I just, every time I hear people say, why is this all of a sudden so different? I'm like, oh, come on.[00:04:34] Stephanie: Yes.And,[00:04:36] Lara: and[00:04:36] Stephanie: I think you're absolutely right, and I think that it is a more frequent problem now for a few reasons. One of them. As you know, we have these fun little things that everybody has we have cell phones and Kids have cell phones, but kids have access to technology from very young ages. It depends how it plays out in different families, but the concept of technology playing a role in our lives happens at a very young age.Yet schools haven't changed that much since 20 years ago. When. People didn't all have phones in their back pockets. And from 20 years ago to like 120 years ago, there was also pretty much no significant change. So the school system is a place that has looked very similar for a long time, and yet most of the rest of our lives has changed dramatically.And particularly dramatically in the last 20 or so years. So the way I think this plays out for kids is that a lot of what they do in school doesn't have meaning or relevance to them. You know, we're asking kids to memorize dates and write essays and using AI is cheating and all of this stuff that they're doing in school.Is so different to what the reality is outside of school, that this disconnect creates a lot of angst, frankly. it's like you're living one life and then leave the school property and you live another life. I'm not for a second blaming schools here because the rate of change of the last years is probably unprecedented and.You know, nobody knows how to, do this, but I think that's a lot of what's going on for a lot of kids. You know, and one of the reactions in schools has been to try to, get back to basics and get a little bit more strict. And, you know, if they feel that kids are sort of talking back a little bit more, standing up for themselves more, one of the reactions is to t down on that.And so that. Environment for some kids quickly, becomes unsupportable and you know, they're dealing with high levels of anxiety or trauma from things that are said or, ways of being. so it has become more impossible for some kids to go to school. They're trying to just suck it up and make it work.And, you know, when families come to me, it's, often been after several years of. Really, really trying to make school work and the schools are working so hard to find ways for kids to be able to leave the classroom to go to a special person for a little while or take some time off, you know, once a week or, there's so many ways that we're all trying to make it work.But I think ultimately there's this disconnect that if we can realize that and start working within that or acknowledging that, then it's going to help.[00:07:22] Rowan: Yeah, and I wanna say like I, many years ago used to work in the conventional school system in Quebec and I was the special person that would come spend time with the kids and, you know, take them out of the classroom, maybe do some reading with them, or take a little walk with them or take them to a room where they could just cool down for a little bit.'cause they were overstimulated. Schools really are trying with limited budgets, limited ability to hire staff. a huge amount of what we call here IEPs, individualized education plans, which frankly, I think that should be everybody Everybody learns differently, so we should all have an individualized education plan.But when you are a teacher with say, 27, 28 kids in the class. And 70% of them have IEPs that that's not uncommon. and you, by law. You have to meet the requirements of all of these different IEPs, all of these different needs of all of these young people, that that's a recipe for burnout.And it's a recipe for just a systemic failure because I don't think anyone is equipped to do that.[00:08:28] Stephanie: And it's something that parents will often say to me is. My, kid has an IEP and they're supposed to have these, you know, five things, which would actually really help, but the school's not providing it.How do we make the school provide it? And, often as you say, the school is doing the absolute best they can with the situation that they have. And it's just simply not possible sometimes.[00:08:51] Lara: I really think that part of the problem is systemic, right? Like the whole school system. I don't have a solution.I think the whole thing needs to be rethought to figure out how to actually support students. But one of the things that I really wanted to get into on this episode that is just the first step of this is to acknowledge that if you struggled, if your kid is struggling, that's not 'cause you have to fix something.There are some ways that just don't work for everybody. It is. Absolutely understandable that school and education in general is difficult for some people. And so while I had a kid who had a really hard time with school, so did I. So did my sister. And so we are looking 40 years ago, like I can remember from like my first and second grade.Report cards being like, would do better if attended more often. cause I didn't like to be there and I really have understood as I've gotten older why that is right, that I don't learn well when I'm in certain situations. I certainly don't learn well when somebody is just talking at me for long periods of time and I don't have the same sort of internal.Need or desire to do things the way that maybe people tell you to do them. So there's like so many different pieces that come together that can make learning difficult, that can make being in a classroom difficult. And so, like I said, the biggest thing that I'm hoping as we talk about this, people realize is it's not some kind of failure on their part if they struggled.It's not a failure on their part if their kid is struggling. It's just that sometimes we need to think about different options and there are differentoptions.[00:10:39] Stephanie: Yeah. That's one of the key things and I've often said, you've probably heard me say it before, Lara, that you know, one of my dreams is that when kids get to be like four or five years old, and it's that like you're starting kindergarten, that we would one day be in a society where it's like, oh, are you planning to start kindergarten or will you be continuing.Your life as it is right now and homeschooling or home-based learning or whatever you want to call it. At that point, if we could have this notion entrenched in our society that school is one option and not school is another option. And they're both good options. They're just different options,[00:11:14] Lara: which for some people is not gonna compute, right?Yes. Like the idea that not school could be an option is just gonna seem so incredibly foreign. And impossible for[00:11:26] Stephanie: sure. Yeah.[00:11:27] Rowan: I do think, you know, when it comes to being able to homeschool children, or to find other, learning situations that don't involve sending them to school all day.You do run into a matter of privilege for some people, for sure, right? Like you have to have the ability to stay home. Maybe you have a job that is flexible or one of you doesn't need to work, or one of you only works part-time, then that's assuming that there are two parents there, right? so I do think we need to acknowledge that.and I say that as somebody who homeschooled, my children at various points, right? I was able, it was tight, it was really difficult to do financially, but we were still able to do it.[00:12:06] Stephanie: that's why I brought up the impossible, element because it can absolutely feel impossible. And that's often where I start with a client where that's, where our need is.Our first need is for conversation because there are so many different ways to think. the current education's not working. What are some solutions we can try? It doesn't have to be like school or not school. There's everything in between. So, for example, it might be that for a child to know that they stay home one day every week, it doesn't have to be like, oh mom, I really don't want to go today.But it's like, no, it's Monday. You stay home. taking a little bit of the pressure off. Something as simple as that can make all the difference for some kids. You know, we were used to thinking about gap years or sabbaticals for adults. We can think about them for younger kids as well. What does it look like to just take a year off?You know, crazy thought, but it's possible. And then when you start to get into, well, who's going to homeschool this child or look after this child, that's when we look at, well, where do you live and what's around? Do you have grandparents around? You know, if it's a younger child who needs to be cared for, sometimes there's a daycare, like a home-based daycare in the neighborhood, and they're more than happy to have a seven or 8-year-old join in a couple of days a week.you know, if that seven or 8-year-old is somebody who enjoys some of those activities and like helping with the little kids, like there's so many creative ideas to answer the care need that we can often find a solution. And then from there, 'cause you know, Lara said in the introduction, like.I always start with mental health. 'cause if you've got a kid who's anxious and stressed and terrified or whatever it is that they're experiencing at school, they're not learning, they're not being educated because they, just can't. So if we can acknowledge that as a first step, like, how can we help you to be feeling safe and well.Your mental, emotional health, then the education piece comes later. we can get into that in a moment, but yeah, there are many, many ways of looking after the caring for a younger child. And then when you're looking at a teenager who might not need to be cared for that child, just knowing that they have some time at home alone, that in itself might be the thing that turns it around for them.Maybe they just need a bit of time, like not always on the go and not always people around. And so again, it's looking at it through a new filter, a new set of filters. And that's what I try to help people do because we're not used to looking through those lenses.[00:14:38] Rowan: One of my children had a really difficult time falling asleep at night.He has a DHD and he could not do mornings at school. And so we worked it out with the school where he would come in a little later. And so maybe he, you know, whatever he missed that day, the teacher would just email him and he could try and get it done later. And I think like we, we do need to think about the mental health component because it is the most important part of all of this, for various reasons.Out of my four children. Three of them struggled in that conventional school system, one because they were queer and bullied. And another one because, she has a lot of learning. Disabilities. And I don't like to use the term learning disability because I actually think she learns very well, just not within that system.and then one, because he has a DHD and they have all taken their own paths. Only one of them graduated from high school out of the three of them. And, that has not stopped any of them from moving on with their lives.Two of them are college grads, one is in music and doing well. what I like to tell parents from this side of things, from way on the other side now where all my children are adults. They're gonna be okay. they're gonna be okay. But you have to support their mental health more than anything else.The primary thing is to support them, and as you said, Stephanie, help them feel safe. Because if they don't have that safety, if your kid is going to school and being bullied every day and nothing is stopping, or they're just feeling terrible every time they're there, what does it matter that they're sitting through math class?They're not absorbing any of it.[00:16:21] Stephanie: And on the contrary, they may be learning to hate math more and more and more. That may be what they're learning and to feel incompetent in math because their marks are terrible. But actually those marks might have been completely different under different circumstances.[00:16:36] Rowan: Exactly.[00:16:37] Stephanie: One of the biggest pieces for me as well, is the notion of collaborating. when we have a baby, we are fully responsible for that little beings. Mental, emotional and physical health. There's a lot on us By the time they're, you know, 20, 25, hopefully they're fairly independent and, you know, we're there to ask advice and to help out every now and then.So at some point along the way, control responsibility starts to get transferred bit by bit or suddenly. And so when our kids start having trouble in school or, you know, it's not going well for them. Parents, you know, we go into this like, how are we gonna solve this? How are we gonna solve this? I'm gonna meet with it.We go into like uber action mode because that's what we feel we need to do, right? It's, and we want to do that. We want to solve it for our child. When we see that our child is suffering, we want to alleviate that suffering. Sometimes what can happen through all of our best. Desires to help is that the child actually gets a bit left out of that process.And so that's one thing that I always encourage people to think about is remember to ask your kid what they think a solution might be. You know, if you could wave a magic wand, how would you want your education to look right now? How would you want your life to look right now? What would you want to get rid of?And just bringing that voice into the conversation really helps not only because you can start to collaborate on solutions, but also because you remove the defensive energy, the argument, you know, your children who wake up in the morning and the first thing they think about is, ugh, you know, my parents are gonna be expecting me to go to school.I know I can't go to school. Like, that's their first reality every morning. Is that feeling of gearing yourself up for a fight? And if we can alleviate that again, it's, one action. That can make a huge difference. And suddenly you've stepped away from the situation you thought you were in and you're in a collaborative, okay, it's not working.What are we going to do? And it can be completely different as a result of that kind of thinking.[00:18:37] Lara: We're touching on a lot of the topics we've already talked about on this podcast and some I'm hoping we'll talk about in the future, right? But we're talking about perfectionism, we're talking about asking for help.It's all of the things where. We have been taught as a society that the ideal situation is for your kid to do as well as possible, as quickly as possible to prove that you did a good job with your kids and that , nobody should need help doing it. Like all of these things are so much pressure and a lot of them aren't true.Like why do kids need to just. Blast through you know, kindergarten to grade 11 without pausing or grade 12. there's so many things they don't need to always get great grades as somebody with two PhDs for parents. and I'm very lucky because my parents are very learned, but they did not Feel that they had to impose that on me. There was a certain amount of that I imposed on myself because of their education, but I really feel, you know, when I was a kid, I remember you, you needed a university degree to think you would get a good job, and now you need like two, like a degree and a diploma or two degrees, like it's The pressure to get more and more and more just gets higher. And I mean, it's probably an entirely different conversation, but I think it's less and less important to get all those pieces of paper just to do well in life in certain situations that not true, but like we need to rethink all of that. Again, I could talk about this for three years, like there's so many parts of it.But if we can let go of the need for it to always be great for every student to always get, a's you know, I remember when I was a kid, there was a lot of like, I'll pay you this many dollars if you get an A, this one, if you get an A minus. And like, it's always about trying to get the highest grades to be rewarded for success.And that's the only way it can look. And if we can let go of so many of those rules about what success is. We can start to adapt things so that they work for lots of people.[00:20:41] Stephanie: Yes. I'm gonna jump in on two of the things that you said or more, I'll try to stop after that so I don't talk at you. I had a great conversation with a teen that I mentor the other day about the notion of always do your best.We see it on walls in elementary schools, right? Always do your best and. in all the years I've been thinking differently about education, I'd never really thought about that phrase. And of course, as adults we know and we get to know, we're allowed to know that it doesn't make sense to always do your best.Like there are times when it makes sense just to do it quickly so that something else can be prioritized. That's the whole notion of what are you going to prioritize. It's okay to have like a super simple supper for your family. Some nights so that you guys can snuggle up on the sofa and read a book together.You might be able to produce a 12 course Uber healthy meal, but you don't always have to do your best because you think about prioritizing. We really lack that notion in schools. I believe if we introduced prioritizing into how kids engage with school, it would completely, shift things.So that's one thing. so my, I guess we haven't said yet, like, I have two kids. They're 20 and 23 at the moment. The eldest homeschooled for most of his elementary and high school and is now in university, by the way, sidebar. You can go to university without a high school diploma. but one of the things that he and I have talked about a lot is how do you prioritize your efforts in a university context?You know, you've got your courses that you're taking for your degree, like your core degree courses and others that are electives. You know, he actually had situation which. I don't think he'll mind me saying where he was doing an elective during the summer term, and, you know, he had chosen to do it, it was fine.But the exam was set for a weekend that some of his friends were going away for something that was a really, really special weekend and he was gonna miss it because of this exam. So he calculated what his mark was going into the exam and realized that he had already passed the course by like 2%.So he didn't do the exam. And that's a really interesting example, right? Like this notion of you just don't show up and exam and you get zero. Like, we don't have that notion in our, usual way of talking about school. We don't talk about priorities like that. But he has zero regrets that mark doesn't matter.That weekend was really special and really worth it for him. So that's an example of how I think we can take a lot of pressure that kids feel in school away by helping them start to prioritize. For example, in Quebec, you start gathering credits for your diploma in grade 10 and 11.That's where all your credits come from. So your marks up until that point. Only matter in so much as if you want to go into the science stream, you need to have certain marks to get into it. But other than that, your marks don't matter really. But it's, a hugely difficult thing to think my marks don't matter.Like it's, counter to every element of school. So anyway, that was one thing. And then the idea as well, going back to. this need to have so many degrees and can you live life without having those degrees? Yes, absolutely. There's lots of paths you can take through life that don't require degrees, and what I find is that when somebody owns their learning, when somebody's used to thinking about their learning as belonging to them, is being able to make choices like prioritizing and all of that, if they decide to go and get a degree.That degree is an easier process for them because they know they've chosen to do it. They're not just doing it 'cause that's where they're supposed to be. They know that they can make decisions like not writing an exam in order to go away for the weekend. They own it and so it makes sense. And so it has less of a mental health load.Or if it does start to get overwhelming, they know that they can make choices to alleviate that suffering, that difficulty.[00:24:34] Lara: So I have a psychology degree that I got from Carleton that I did fairly slowly. And my major changed like four times through that process because I was just like, university comes next.And then I was like, uh, English, um, history, uh, like, I don't know, right? Like it didn't. Really care. And so I graduated. I have that degree and I like to tell everybody I had a really solid C average on that degree. and then I went and taught English in Korea for a year. And while I was there I was doing some research and I discovered there was a program at Algonquin called Public Relations.And I remember reading about it and thinking like, that sounds really interesting. And I went back to school, and then I was on the honor roll throughout because I had chosen and I cared and was really interested. And I wasn't the first time around just because it was, you know, quote unquote time to go to university.I hadn't bought in and that showed in how well I did. And once I had bought in, that also showed. And so just to know that, that. I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready at 18 and I was ready at[00:25:46] Rowan: Yeah,And like for myself,I had a very difficult time in school by about age 12.the bullying for me was really, really bad and every day felt like hell, honestly. So I had a really hard time going. I was expelled from school for lack of attendance when I was 14 and then I was allowed back into the system later. And was trying to take it seriously, but then I ended up unhoused and I was living on people's sofas.I was living in shelters and stairwells, and it makes it really hard to go to school. And then I had a baby at 20 years old, we had our first child, and so I just never went back. Finally around 37 years old, you know, after having three kids. At that time, we hadn't adopted our, fourth yet. I thought to myself, you know, it'd be really great if I just went back to high school and finished it,I wanna walk the stage. I wanna wear a cap and gown, I wanna get a diploma. I wanna do all of those things. And so I did, I mean, I took all my courses. I did, online, but it was through a local high school and they had an actual graduation. It was an adult high school, and I, won the English award, which is actually up in my office.Like that is the award that I am the proudest of. And then people kept asking me, what's next? What's next? What's next? I'm like, what do you mean? What's next? No, I just wanna do that. For me, it was a personal thing. I just wanted to finish because I had tried so hard and not managed to do it. I never went to university.I never went to college, and I love the idea of higher education, but it just wasn't in the cards for me. I still went on to write two bestselling books and I have a shelf full of awards I've done just fine. And I don't say that to brag. I say that because if there's anyone listening who feels like maybe they need to follow this more conventional path to success, or their children need to do that, you don't need to do it.I mean, if you wanna be a lawyer, yes you have to. You have to go to law school. If you wanna be a doctor, you have to go to medical school. But. We don't all have that goal in mind, and you can still forge your own path and have a fantastic career and feel very successful without it.[00:27:59] Stephanie: Absolutely. And I think sometimes it's a question of knowing, having a sense of where you wanna go and then working backwards.Like, my daughter wants to be a lawyer, so she's. Knows that she's doing her undergrad now and she's gonna go to law school and she's working to get experience in the summer. And there you go. For people who don't know where they wanna go, what the end goal is honoring your. Wellbeing and following the things like Lara said, like that program looked really interesting.Or is it like working in a cafe like the one Rowan's going to open? working in a cafe feels really good to me 'cause I have so many conversations every day and I get to meet people and I understand, like I get to see all these cool things that people do. Like maybe that's serving you right now and helping create, An ability to trust in that. I think that's the biggest thing, right? It's like, yeah, you know, you might be having fun doing music, but like at a certain point you have to go to university and I. And we say that as parents or as members of society with all of the best intentions, because we know that, I think it's still that if you want a job in the government, you're supposed to have an undergrad degree.[00:29:07] Rowan: Yes.[00:29:07] Stephanie: Not positive.[00:29:08] Rowan: Yeah. For the most part.[00:29:08] Stephanie: Yeah. But I also know that there, you know, there's always a backdoor, there's always creativity. but that's the thing. So you want your kid to have that possibility, but. If we can have as our first step validating and acknowledging just following the things that make you shine, because that's how you're going to find your path.[00:29:26] Rowan: I really wish that, I had known this when I was younger. I think Gen X, which I'm gonna assume we're all in Gen X here, the three of us, but I think We were the last generation to be taught that. If you do all of these things, if you go to school, if you go to elementary school, then you go to high school and then you go and get a degree, you are guaranteed this financially successful life.You have to do it all this way and like, and we were also taught like what do you wanna be when you grow up? What do you wanna be when you grow up? Right? And making that thing part of our identity. I want to be a lawyer, right? And so I have to be. And then you, you, you do it, you do the thing, you go to school, you get your law degree, you start working in law.I was like, well, that's what I chose. I'm gonna be a lawyer until I retire, what we were not taught, but a lot of us have figured out, and I think what a lot of younger generations are figuring out now is it's okay to change your mind. Like we grow as people constantly. So maybe high school wasn't for me when I was a teenager.Maybe it was for me in my thirties. Clearly it was, I rocked that Shakespeare, but like I remember when I wanted to be a, veterinarian. All I wanted to be my entire life as a veterinarian. I'm not a veterinarian now. That's all right. There were three or four or five things that I thought I wanted to do, tried them out or didn't try them out.Realize that's not where I wanted to be, and kept going. So can we normalize the idea that we are not stuck in the decisions that we make and we should not put that on our children either?[00:31:04] Lara: Yes. I like that very much, but my daughter who just finished grade 10, and partially I think because of the conversations we have at home would be like, mom.I don't know why. They keep thinking we're supposed to know what we wanna be for the rest of our lives. I'm 15 years old, I don't know yet. And I was like, and nor should you have to know yet. Right? But I know that that's not the conversation everybody else is having and it's certainly not what the schools are still saying.Like, you need to figure this out. You need to find the right career pathway. Anyway. I think it's good to think about what you like, but I think it's so important to remember. That you don't need to figure it all out at 15. Like I didn't know anything about myself. At 15. The person that I am now at almost 50 doesn't look remotely like the person I was at 25, let alone 15.[00:31:57] Rowan: We're building confidence. We're building, decision making skills. We're building critical thinking skills. We're building all of those things when we're younger. I think as adults, our job is not to first of all, my job as a parent, has never been to make my children live out a set of goals and ideals that I have for them.My job as a parent is to learn who my child is and support them in becoming the best version of themselves and like , that can look completely different than the story I told myself when our child was first born. That's okay. And I think that is a big disconnect with parents with, but, but, but my sister has two boys and they are super studious and one of them is becoming a rocket scientist and yeah, those are her children and that's who they are.Presumably those are not the children or that is not the child that you are raising and that's okay too for your child to take a different path.[00:32:59] Lara: And I think it's really important to remember that most people when they are trying to outline what the best course forward is for their children are doing it with the best of intentions.Like they really and truly believe that that is what needs to happen. To have supported a child into adulthood and to have them lead a good life. Like their intentions are very good. I also think yes, and that. Not everybody needs the same thing. Not everyone takes the same path. Not everyone has the same dreams and desires, and that is also okay.And that's Stephanie. Why I've so appreciated your insight and help over the years because truly Stephanie helped me help my kid. Stephanie directly helped my kid. See what was possible and what was different when things were starting to feel impossible. And that's what we need sometimes is somebody who can say, I don't know what to do anymore.And somebody else can be like, let me help you figure out what else exists.[00:34:03] Stephanie: Yeah. It's huge because even when people are going to psychologists or school social workers, . Most experts in this field. Know that the best place to be is school. And it's important for us to start spreading the knowledge that the best place for some kids might be school and the best place for other kids might not be school or some combination so that the people who are helping the families can provide them with real options and themselves, be familiar with those options.I'm gonna go quickly back over three things that. I just took notes on as you were talking, both of you.[00:34:36] Rowan: So organized[00:34:38] Stephanie: No. A DHD. I need to write it down so that I remember. The idea of if you're following, like trying to figure out what you wanna do and you're trying different things and you're following your dream and all of that stuff, we're used to feeling held by the school system.What grade are you in? When are you going to graduate? What degree do you have? If we're not going to be held by that, what are we going to be held by? We need to be held by something. So that sense of like, I'm on a gap year. It holds you. I'm a self-directed learner. Like if somebody's a homeschooler, what grade are you in?Who's your teacher? Like, it's still the same kind of schoollike questions. So you know, that's often something I work with, , with teens or even with kids. It's like, okay, if you're not gonna be at school, what are you going to say? When people ask you what grade are you in? Or what school do you go to?What holds you so that you know where you are? And so that you can confidently respond when somebody else asks you. 'cause otherwise, every time somebody asks you, what grade are you in, are you doing math? Like it just, it like chips away at your confidence. And so having a phrase for yourself and knowing what holds you is important.And that also ties into the notion of, okay, well so and so's kids are doctors and lawyers and all of that. It's that like keeping up with the Joneses type of. Notion. So again, if we can inside our heads know that that doctor might be so stressed out, they might be burning out that teacher who went into teaching, 'cause they love helping children, might be going home every day saying, I don't know how much longer I can do it.'cause I, I'm just trying to manage, like, I can't engage with my kids 'cause. You know, whatever the things we talked about earlier is not what I thought it would be. So remembering that as a parent, when you feel like other people's families are perfect, and then again, what's holding your kids and your family can help you ground in that moment.There's this video, a TED Talk, which you've probably both seen by Logan Laplante. I think he probably did it like. Seven years ago now. I've been recommending it forever. was about 12 years old at the time and he's a hack schooler. He's like super, it's, it is such a great video for kids to watch as well 'cause he expresses it all so well.But one of the things he says is he asked his little brother what he wanted to be when he grows up and his little brother said, dude, I just wanna be happy. And I think, again, like that sounds irresponsible if, if we, as parents say, I just want my kids to be happy. Like we're supposed to be a bit more responsible and practical than that, but we can have that.So I wanna equip them when they're a kid with tools and the ability to move through life, checking in with what they're doing and how it's impacting their wellbeing. That's kind of what that means. I want them to be happy. Okay.[00:37:21] Rowan: Wow. No, absolutely. And I think it's great that, you are such a beacon of light in the education system and teaching people that there are different ways to do things and.You also have a child who's becoming a lawyer who's doing this very, like, you know, conventional route in this sense anyway at, at this stage. But when you empower your children from a young age, they themselves, learn that autonomy, that personal responsibility, they don't have to look to everybody else.To tell them what to do. And that is what I've seen from a lot of, homeschoolers and a lot of, you know, I, I don't even know what the terms are anymore. There's like un learners or unschoolers. there's a bunch of these different terms, but essentially letting your children lead their education and lead with curiosity and lead with confidence.And, I, , I think that serves 'em so much through life in a way that we don't acknowledge enough.[00:38:25] Stephanie: Yeah. And I think as you're saying, we can help them to lead in that way and they might lead themselves into school. Right. I. So you might have a kid sitting in a grade 10 classroom who is absolutely a self-directed learner as opposed to the kid sitting next to them who is there because they think they have to be there.So we can acknowledge that even when we start to come at this, parenting from this place of collaboration and asking questions like, is school the right spot for you right now? That doesn't necessarily mean that we're advocating or supporting our kids to not be in school. We're supporting them to have this kind of ownership that you're talking about, Rowan.[00:38:59] Rowan: Ah, makes me happy.[00:39:01] Lara: There is one last thing I wanna put out there, which is, and I only know the Ontario school system, but there are actually alternative schools. There are alternative programs that exist and from experience, the school boards don't tell you about them super readily, so. If your kid is struggling, it's worth seeing and digging and asking around whether there's a Facebook group for parents in your area or whatever it is, but dig a little bit.Push the school administrators a little bit because there are more things out there than you might realize and letting your kid try a different kind of program like the alternative high schools. Here where I live have made a huge difference for so many teens I know, but they don't readily tell people, Hey, why don't you go in there?So just go looking. Find people like Stephanie who can help you, consider different options because they do exist without it. Meaning that you just have to give up and hope everything works out later.[00:40:06] Stephanie: It's such a good point. And one of the things I know you and I have talked about, Lara, with regard to those, the alternative high schools, is the goal that the school board had in creating the high school might be different than the benefit than your child is getting in being there.So that's part of this creative thinking. It's like ? You know, what are the options? How might my kid engage with that, even if it's not what. They're intending or expecting from the organizational perspective, it could still really help my child. then one of the things, I just had a client the other day and she had been talking about trying to find a private school and how they were all far, far out of her family's price range.So look under learning centers and. Things like that. the three of us met originally through Compass Center for Self-Directed Learning in Ottawa, which has since closed, but there's a new center called Dandelion Cafe and Student Achievement Center, which is different than Compass, but provides a similar home for kids who aren't going to school, who want a consistent, friend group or, you know, place to go for a few days a week.It's amazing the work that they're doing right there. But then like if you were looking for. Private schools in Ottawa. I'm not sure whether Google would bring dandelion up. So that's, that's one of the things as well, is talk to people to find out what are the phrases you can use if you're searching for different types of learning environments.You know, sometimes, like there's another one that's great for kids, in Ottawa called Blue Whale and I think it comes up if you look for learning co-op. So there's getting creative with all those probably AI can help you figure out all of that stuff.[00:41:40] Rowan: I find the homeschooling community is often really tapped into that as well.[00:41:43] Stephanie: Exactly,yeah.[00:41:44] Rowan: Where like younger children, when they're very little, might mostly learn at home or sort of, in a neighborhood setting with other parents. and then once they get older, are looking for something where they can actually assert their independence a little more and go somewhere.So that's where Compass really came in handy for our child, and where a lot of these places would come in handy. my own child who went to Compass and was homeschooled for, I'd say about a third of their conventional education years, never ended up graduating high school, but went to college as a mature student.Graduated at the top of their class. This kid that we couldn't even get to school who we fought tooth and nail for far too long. Frankly, a great detriment to them,and us getting them into school every single day. who would underperform by their own words, not mine, because they just weren't happy.ended up going to college, graduated, and now work in their chosen field. So I mean, this is where we give children a space to breathe and figure things out and find out what makes them happy and what helps them get motivated and address any of those underlying, mental health or any other types of issues that they have, they can really thrive.And mine has certainly done that.[00:43:03] Stephanie: And one of the things I really point out to parents is if your kid needs to do that, if they need to step aside from the conventional ways of doing things, how wonderful that they get to do it while you're providing them with food, a roof over their head and a loving, supportive, safe adult when they're going through that kind of thing at 18 or 20 or 25 not living at home anymore, it can be much more difficult.So there's benefit to this kind of process happening younger.[00:43:30] Lara: And we've talked a lot about children, but also a little bit about ourselves, and I do hope that if anybody listening has struggled with their own relationship with their education, Rowan and I both did things a little bit differently.Rowan and I both struggled at different times, but also. Have careers and have done well. And so if the inner child needs a little bit of compassion about how they feel about how good they are at school or how well they did in the past, just remembering it's okay to do things differently and to do things your own way and to learn in different ways than other people.Totally cool.[00:44:10] Stephanie: And sometimes from my experience, doing extremely well in school. Has its own costs because it took me a long time to be able to decide to do something for somebody. Like other than like I was always used to doing my best all the time. I would burn out. I was doing things for the teachers all the time.Never for me. It took me a long, long time to recover from school and to discover who I was, even though I was an a plus honor roll student all the way through. and again, it's, I'm not this, it's not to say that the school system is terrible. It's not. It's to say that it's so important that we own ourselves, that our mental health, our emotional health, our physical health, and the more we as parents and adults can help kids have that as part of their childhood learning, the better theyare stepping into their adult years.[00:45:04] Rowan: Wow. Yeah.[00:45:05] Lara: I think that we could keep talking about so many different aspects of this. So we may have future podcasts that dig into more of these, areas. If you have any of your personal stories, you wanna come and share them on our substack. Please do. We wanna hear from you. We wanna know what you would like to know more about.And Stephanie, thank you so much for being here and talking to us about something that both of us really think is an important thing to talk about.[00:45:34] Stephanie: You're welcome. It was a really great conversation. Thank you both for jumping in and getting into it all. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes life gives us opportunities to challenge our fears, and sometimes we (well, Lara), seek out those opportunities on purpose. Did you know she performed standup comedy and joined an improv group just so she could challenge her fear of embarrassment? As we find out in this week’s episode of Unboxing It, the woman is full of surprises—and lessons.Here’s the thing: If we always play it safe, we won’t grow. And as Lara and Rowan both know, growth will find you in the most challenging moments. In this episode, we talk about when and how to stare down our fears, what we can learn from doing so, and why we think everyone should do more of it. In a world that often encourages us to keep our head down play by the rules, it can be good to throw out the rulebook, take a deep breath, and look up at the crowd full of people waiting for you to make them laugh.(Just writing that last bit made me anxious, and I speak for a living. - Rowan)Want to hear Lara’s standup set? It’s on Youtube (and only about 4 minutes long)Past podcasts that relate to what we talked about today:PerfectionismAsking for HelpWant more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Transcript(please note, we do not edit the transcript for accuracy, so this is entirely what a robot thinks we said)[00:00:00] Lara: I can move towards that thing that is important to me, even though I'm scared. It's okay if I'm scared. I don't need to just tell myself to stop being scared. Like, be scared.Do it scared, right? That is part of it. Like do it scared.[00:00:39] Rowan: Hey there. Welcome to this week's episode of Unboxing It. I'm Rowan.[00:00:45] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:46] Rowan: And what's really cool is I don't know, you are maybe are watching this on a video. You might be listening to this just in your ears, but we are in the same room together right now,[00:00:55] Lara: which is not something that has happened very much ever, but definitely not recently.[00:01:02] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. It's been, we, we were thinking close to two years since we've been in a space together and the last time Lara came to one of my book signings in Ottawa and like that. Other than that, I can't remember the last time we were in the same place together.[00:01:15] Lara: Your previous book signing.[00:01:16] Rowan: Oh, well here we are.Here we are. We are in my office. In Toronto, we are sharing a microphone because for the life of me, I could not figure out how to set up two today. It just felt too complicated. So we're gonna try and not talk over each other so that we get a decent audio and we can send this out to you. Today we are doing, a podcast on, or I should say today we are unboxing doing the things that scare you.[00:01:48] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:01:48] Rowan: Yeah.[00:01:49] Lara: I think it's so important to get uncomfortable sometimes to do things that scare you because that's how you kind of grow into the next step of you and the more you just stay doing the things you always do. I mean, it's just kind of stagnant. I mean, I think some people probably are fine there, but if you're like, I just wish something in my life was.Something else. The ways to start figuring what that is and to start finding new ways of being is to be a little bit uncomfortable.[00:02:24] Rowan: I try to meditate every day and I have a mantra that I repeat to myself when I start the meditation, and lately it has been. Do the things that scare you.[00:02:35] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:02:36] Rowan: Do the things that scare you over and over and over.And I see this as a really anxious guy. Like I, I have an anxiety disorder. I honestly, like I was just telling you that I have broken out in, a rash from what is probably a lot of stress right now, doing the things that scare me. But I also know, like you said, that if I do not push the boundaries of what I'm comfortable with and get into the next phase, into the next zone, if you will, I will not ever grow as a human being.I will also not be able to achieve the things that I wanna achieve right now.[00:03:15] Lara: So I'm curious, what was it that made you decide that that should be the mantra? Like what made you think I need to remind myself? To do the things that scare me.[00:03:26] Rowan: I think that I have often looked at life through a lens of fairness and that honestly is an entire podcast.[00:03:36] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:03:37] Rowan: Topic in and of itself. That whole idea of, you know, oh, life's not fair. It's not fair. That wasn't fair. And whenever I. Get scared. you know, we've talked about things like change before. We've talked about, you know, a lot of different things and whenever I get into that phase of like, you know, oh, life threw me a curve ball, or, oh, if I want to achieve this, I have to move to the next step.I can sometimes start to play the, it's not fair and this shouldn't be happening, and why me and this sort of victim mentality can take over if I'm not careful.[00:04:11] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:04:11] Rowan: And so I started to switch my mindset and think to myself, no, this is actually a really good thing. I have the opportunity to take on fear.That is a way for me to take control of my life when life feels largely uncontrollable. So if I challenge myself, if I say no, I'm going to do this thing that is scary. Look at me. I get to do this scary thing. As opposed to, oh no, why is this happening that's huge for me.[00:04:42] Lara: And you said something that's really important.Which is the, I get to, so I don't think you should go do scary things that you don't want to do, right? Like I don't want to bungee jump. It scares me and I don't want to, so like that is not a thing that I'm gonna push myself to do.[00:05:01] Rowan: I guess if bungee jumping had something at the end that, you know, like, I can only eat at this amazing steakhouse I've wanted to eat at my entire life, if I bungee jump first.That might be a reason to do it. I don't know.[00:05:15] Lara: Maybe[00:05:16] Rowan: I like steak. I like steak, so I mean, I was just trying to think of something that might get me to even that though, I don't, I don't like steak enough. No, you're right. Like I have no desire to jump out of a plane. Right. That has never been a thing for me.But I have had a desire to, open a coffee shop, so that is something that I'm doing, even though it is absolutely terrifying. It's daunting, but I'm doing the thing that scares me.[00:05:39] Lara: And so that's why I think it's so important to get to the point where you know what it is that you want, and even if it scares you, that's when you start thinking about it, right?So we're not just looking for scary things. We're thinking about what it is that we want and how we get there. And I know from living a life where I've done this a lot that can really change how you are, how I used to be was terrified of public speaking. I was terrified of a lot of things that I am not scared of now, but that's shown me the way that I got not scared of it was by doing it.And so I know from a lot of experience that. Pushing into things that scare you can mean that over time you get to a different place where it's not scary, where you just, then you need a new thing that scares you to keep growing.[00:06:34] Rowan: Okay. But, and I think this is an important thing, let's talk about, say the end goal is, I want to get good at public speaking.I wanna be comfortable in front of an audience.[00:06:44] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:06:44] Rowan: But the idea of I'm gonna go out into a crowd of 2000 people and speak. That might be just way too overwhelming for someone. Right? So there has to be maybe, an in-between, maybe some steps that people can take.[00:06:57] Lara: Yeah. So there's something that most of us, as coaches have learned to talk about, which is that we all have a comfort zone, right?That's where we sit, which is cozy. It's nice. It's safe. And most of us are scared to leave the comfort zone. There is also something called the panic zone. I have also experienced a lot of that. That's when you like jump into something all the way and it's terrifying and you just wanna shut down and it's like nothing about it is great, but there is something in between called the Growth Zone.Some people call it different things, but I call it the growth zone. And it is that place where. It's uncomfortable, but you're not in panic, and that means that you can handle it. You can do the thing. So you don't want to start by getting on a stage in front of 2000 people when you've never done it, but maybe you wanna join Toastmasters.Maybe you want to go to a local event where you're all sitting at a table and you just share something, right? Like that is public speaking. There are certainly. 30 years ago, me would not have wanted to do any kind of show and tell at a table of people, let alone stand up on a stage. And so when you say like, I'm going to practice.I'm going to take this small step. It's going to be a bit uncomfortable, but I'm not gonna freak out, and then I'm gonna see how I feel. So that's how I think you get there, right? You don't need to start with the big thing. Start by allowing yourself to figure out. How to get more comfortable with different things.[00:08:32] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, , we were talking about this before we started recording. I was like, I think you need to introduce the growth zone, all those different zones, because I don't know what to call them. I think I'm gonna call it like the uncomfortable zone or something.[00:08:45] Lara: Yeah. The uncomfortable zone comes before the lying on the floor crying zone.[00:08:50] Rowan: Yeah, I've done that. I've been in that zone a lot actually. that's a common zone for me. Don't be like me. I've gotten better. I've gotten better, but, I like to tell the story about how I stood on stage in Vancouver in front of 18,000 people.young people, which to me is so intimidating. I think it just brings back all those horrific high school moments for me. But I was in front of 18,000 young people and I was scared, but I was not nearly as nervous as you might think I would be. And I think that's because as we're talking about growth zones, I always knew that I wanted to be able to speak in front of large crowds, but I also knew that I didn't have the confidence for it.So my first real foray into speaking in front of people was, peers and, and Lara, you might remember Blog out loud.[00:09:43] Lara: Blog out Loud is where I first met Rowan.[00:09:48] Rowan: Yeah.[00:09:48] Lara: First heard of Rowan. and the blog post you read out loud stuck with me Always. But you did a great job.[00:09:57] Rowan: Was it the one where I'm in the grocery store shopping, or was it the rotisserie chicken Costco one?[00:10:03] Lara: No, it was in the grocery store and it was about bear paws.[00:10:06] Rowan: Oh, yeah. The bear paws and the judgy mom. That's right, that's right. Yeah. But that was my first, I remember I was approached to speak at this event. And I was nervous, but I thought to myself, I'm like, Hey, these are just other bloggers. There's just gonna be a room full of people who write things and we're all gonna sort of one by one get up and share our, stories, our blog posts.That really resonated with other people or resonated with us. And I met so many people that night. So it pushed me out of my comfort zone, but did not launch me into, you're going to go to an arena. And talk to a bunch of prepubescent children, who are gonna be like, what is this old person doing on the stage?So I think like , that was a really nice workup for me. But that's, even as a trans person, I will say, even transition that's something that can be very needed, but also very scary. and being able to do it in steps and test the waters and see where you're at. Like pushing myself outta my comfort zone.I was like, oh, okay. I'm gonna get a haircut. alright, that feels really good. Okay, now I'm going to change my, you know, my clothing. That, that feels really good too. Okay. You know, but contrary to popular belief, I'm not going to my doctor in the next week. I'm getting surgeries.Like, I mean, this takes years, right? It takes a really long time to get there. I'm not like leaving with a hormone prescription on day one. There's a lot that goes into these things. But those steps, are definitely, have always been outside of my comfort zone. Then feel like the most wonderful thing and help me figure myself out more.And then I get to the next phase and I get to the next phase and at some point I'm like, okay, I've grown all I need to grow in this area. I'm kind of getting close to there now, but it has been a good three, four years in the making.[00:12:01] Lara: I mean, and this makes me think whether it's something as big as transitioning or wanting to.Facilitate a meeting at your work and you've never done it before, right? Like, it can be all the things, but what I think the risk is, is that you think you need to go all in right away because that's the only way to prove that you're serious, that you actually want it, that, you're capable of it. Like all of these things that you decide, it means you have to go all the way in right away.And that is the fastest way to the panic zone. and you don't need to push yourself that hard, that fast to do things like we need to give ourselves some grace and allow ourselves to ease into things so that they do feel good. 'cause we're not inviting people to go be miserable. We're saying, Hey, you really wanna think, let's figure out how to make it work for.[00:12:58] Rowan: Can we also just touch on perfectionism? Mm-hmm. In all of this, right? I think that that speaks to what you were saying too, that idea that, you know. If I'm going to do this thing that I want to do, it has to be perfect, which immediately can stop us as we've talked about before, from doing the thing, from even starting to do the thing, but taking these little baby steps and moving forward slowly and building those skills is what's needed.Like. Even as author, I did not one day just wake up and write a bestselling book. Like that's not, how it worked. There was a lot that went into crafting my voice over time. There was, you know, it wasn't just like. All of a sudden I go from not writing to, I'm going to write these, 90,000, a hundred thousand words.It, was, you know, oh, I'm going to start by writing, you know, little short stories at home. I'm going to, oh, maybe I'm going to pitch my local, whatever, website, whatever, like journalistic, venture. About publishing a piece, right? Like, I'm gonna, and I just sort of worked my way up slowly, slowly, slowly.And if I look at my writing from, you know, 5, 10, 15 years ago, it's not where it's at today. It couldn't have been because I needed to grow more. But I wouldn't have grown ever if I had said, oh no, no, I can't write. I wanna write a book, but I'll never be able to write a book.[00:14:27] Lara: Yeah, it definitely comes to the perfectionism piece.It's the. If I'm not perfect, what's the point in doing it? But it makes me think of, so I've had a podcast before. I ran for like five years prior to 2020. And when I first started that podcast, I had a script that I read. And do you know what it sounded like? It sounded like I was reading a script.[00:14:52] Rowan: Yep.[00:14:53] Lara: That's what it sounded like. And people liked it. But they liked it more when I got more comfortable and just sort of talked. And so it's not to say that it wasn't good before then. That's something I talk about a lot, coaching clients all kinds of times, right? Just because something isn't the best it can ever be, doesn't mean that it's not good over here.So when you start and you say, look, I wanna start a podcast, maybe you wanna start a podcast, go ahead and script it. Go ahead and read it. You did it. Like that's your first step. Put it out and maybe you don't, you know, make it a permanent podcast. Maybe you record a video and you post it online. I don't know what you're gonna do.Right. But it's okay to start there and then get better. Like we're meant to get better at things.[00:15:38] Rowan: Yeah. I know the old adage practice makes perfect. It does not, there's no such thing as perfect, but it does. Practice makes better.[00:15:46] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:15:47] Rowan: Practice makes better for virtually everybody. No question.[00:15:50] Lara: But you don't have to practice by yourself in your basement until you think you're good enough.Like you can come out into the world and share your gifts and your things before it'sperfect,quote unquote.[00:16:04] Rowan: Yeah. also you don't have to do scary things alone. Like, I think that's the other idea, right? It's like, oh, if I wanna do this, okay, I have to do this all by myself. No, no, no. That's why there are things like writing circles and, you know, groups where people want to learn to publicly speak.you touched on one of them, right? Like Toastmasters, that sort of thing. you know, you did improv.[00:16:27] Lara: I did do improv. I did improv because. I am really scared of being embarrassed. Like embarrassment is like the, I get that secondhand embarrassment, like watching tv. Like, I will leave the room if I think somebody's about to do something that I think is embarrassing.And I walk out the room and somebody's like, oh, do you want me to pause? I was like, absolutely not. I would like to not watch this part because I cannot handle it being embarrassed. It's just, it just freaks me out. So. Improv requires people to do a lot of things that I knew I would feel embarrassed doing, right?Like being in character and making funny noises and whatever it is. However, improv also has a philosophy called Yes and do you know? Yes. And[00:17:15] Rowan: I think you should explain it anyway.[00:17:16] Lara: I will. Yes. And is basically, you always accept what the other person said. And then you can build on it. Right? So if I said, so you have a donkey, right?And you'd be like, no.[00:17:31] Rowan: Oops. That'd be terrible improv.[00:17:33] Lara: That's right. So you'd be like, oh yes, of course I do. And then what are you gonna do with it? But like, and we're thinking about getting rid of him 'cause it doesn't really work in the city. Like whatever it is you wanna do, but you always start with Yes.So. That philosophy, I think is a really good one. And notice myself in every situation in my life with my spouse, with my kids. If they say something, I'd be like, yes. And also I wonder if you should consider, I am not negating what you're saying, but that philosophy, the yes and philosophy of improv.Made me believe that the people who I would be with, even if I was embarrassed, would not be judging me and they would be supportive. So I thought improv was a really good space for me to practice being embarrassed.[00:18:25] Rowan: That is amazing. And look, when I talk to people and they find out I'm trans or you know, a lot of times they're like, oh, that's so great.You're so brave. You're so brave. I'm like, no, I'm not brave. People who do improv, brave, and like on top of that you also did standup comedy and like as a professional public speaker who has done more speaking than he can count. The idea of going up and doing standup absolutely terrifies me. So you are a legend.[00:19:00] Lara: Well, thank you. but it was, again, it was a very intentional, like, I know that this is gonna make me uncomfortable, but I wanted to stretch into it. I want it to be like, let's, do it. The other thing that I wanna talk about is that. I know that when I get uncomfortable, I get kind of grouchy and potentially unpleasant.And I think it's important to know that because I now consider that part of the process. So imagine I'm about to go on stage for, my standup comedy set and we're all in the green room, and I basically said to everybody like. I don't think you should talk to me right now. Like after we're done, I will be great.But until then, it's just better to not talk to me because I am exceptionally angry at past Lara right now for signing me up for this course. I am not in a happy place however, I really wanted to do it. So getting through that, knowing it was part of my. It's just always happens, right? Like right at the hardest part.I get really unhappy about it, but because I've wanted to do it, I'm really pleased with myself when I'm done, I think, and I've gotten a lot of good feedback about my standup that it went quite well. It's about five minutes. and then everybody's like, oh, are you gonna do more of this? And I was like, absolutely not.Check mark. I've done it. I'm finished. I wouldn't wanna be a standup comic. Hats off to people who want to, but I was really pleased with the fact that I did it and that it was just another one of those ways where I went into something that was completely different and I was able to show myself that I could do it.[00:20:43] Rowan: You're so cool.[00:20:44] Lara: I know.[00:20:48] Rowan: I mean, all of my stuff is like, oh. A big life thing is occurring. I need to grow and push myself to new heights. very little of it has been, hmm, you know what? I think I just want to try going out in front of an audience and telling jokes and seeing what happens. and then like, okay, I did that.Now done, like, I'm fascinated. By your ability to purposely take things on? Like I think the only thing I can relate to in my life that's similar to that is exercise. I definitely wanted to get healthier. I wanted to feel better in my body. and I wanna preface that by saying it's not about weight, it's not about anything else.It really is just. Honestly, my back kept hurting. It kept getting thrown out all the time, and I was tired of, it was like, I'm in my thirties, like, what am I gonna be like in my fifties if I don't take care of this? So I went to physiotherapy and my physiotherapist is like, Hey, you know, one things you can do is you can strengthen your core muscles and you can strengthen your back muscles, and then you're less likely to throw them out.And I did not start by, I'm going to go, you know, deadlift X number of, I mean that was never it, but the idea of being a larger body person going to, at the time a gym. Now I work out at home 'cause I, I've worked at long enough that I know how to do it here. But like going into a gym, in my mind a gym was full of young fit people who were going to look at me and go.What is he doing here? Ew. You know, that's really what I thought and that no classes would be designed for me and no equipment would be designed for me. And I, had all these mental blocks to get over, but, you know, I went, I went and I did the tour and I started really small and it was scary every time.I went in for a little while. And then that stopped being scary. And I was like, cool, now I'm at the gym and I know how to, you know, work the equipment, use the treadmill, lift some weights. Fantastic. And then it was like, okay, but now I wanna take it to the next level. So now what do I wanna do? Well now I'm gonna do a strength training class.Now I'm doing that. Oh, now I'm gonna work with the trainer. Now I'm doing that. And I have continued to challenge myself every week in the fitness department for over 10 years. And I'm really proud of myself for that. I think, you know where I am now. I used to say, oh, I'm not a cardio guy. I'm not a weights guy.There's no way I could do this. No, I can't do that. I'm just not very good at exercise and now I am one of the fittest people I know.[00:23:25] Lara: That's awesome. And I think that that's exactly what we're looking for here is for ask yourself what is something I want, but I'm a little bit. Afraid I can't do, or I feel really intimidated by, right?It could be like, you wanna learn how to be a better cook? It could be like so many different things and then it could be, well, I don't want to go take a class, because what if everybody thinks, wow, I can't believe this person is that bad at cooking. But it doesn't always need to be taking a class either.It could be like, I don't want to make a meal and then eat it and feel embarrassed that I didn't like it. Like all of the things that you think that make you feel uncomfortable are valid. So that's the first thing, right? I think we like to talk ourselves out of thinking. We're supposed to feel that, right?Like, I shouldn't feel embarrassed by that, therefore I should just go do that thing. It's really difficult to deal with if you say, well, I get really embarrassed when this happens, or, I am worried I'm gonna get embarrassed if this happens. Regardless of whether or not you should feel that way, just acknowledge that that's how you feel, and then ask yourself what's one step towards Facing that fear and that's all that doing things that scares you needs to be. And a hundred percent like going to the gym is very intimidating for me. There are a lot of things that are easy for some people and not for others. So it doesn't matter if it's easy for somebody else that you know or even if it used to be easy for you, if something is making you feel uncomfortable, but you really want to get there again.I don't want a bungee jump, so we are not taking the baby steps towards that goal. But like even doing this podcast is another thing, right? I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do something different. Right. Most of my other work has been in the business coaching sphere, and this is not just business coaching. I think some of it applies to people with businesses, but it's certainly not that.So I'm venturing into something different.[00:25:29] Rowan: Mm-hmm.[00:25:30] Lara: There can be some nerves, right? And it's okay. Like acknowledge that, know that it's gonna be uncomfortable. Know that you might get a little bit grouchy as you're facing some of the fears, but then ask yourself if you want to do it anyway. And don't try to push yourself to the 2000 person crowd right from the start.[00:25:49] Rowan: Right, exactly. And, also I think. When we go back to the idea of fear, some fear is it comes from just instincts, of course. Like some people have a fear of heights or snakes or spiders or something like that. For sure.[00:26:02] Lara: Bridges. Bridges. I have a fear of bridges.[00:26:04] Rowan: Bridges. That's fair too. but some fears come from something that happened to us when we were kids that has shaped our belief around that thing or that experience or that feeling.For the rest of our lives, and I consider it when I challenge my fears, an act of, in a way, I guess re-parenting, if you will. It's about acknowledging that little scared person inside of me and going, Hey. I know you're really afraid right now. I know that this is a scary thing for you. I'm gonna teach you that it's not actually as scary as you might think.I'm gonna teach you that we can overcome this fear together because I am older now and wiser and more capable, and I know how to do things in a way that can start to tell a different story. So I really do consider it an act of healing when I challenge my fears.[00:26:57] Lara: Yeah. I think that's a good reminder and I think again, we're coming back around to like, I feel like some of the examples of what I was sharing, of what I did that scared me were like kind of small, and not, you know, like transitioning is a big, big thing, but a lot of this is about really.Trusting that you can do the things that you want to do, even if they're scary, even if it takes 20,000 baby steps, but you're like, I can move towards that thing that is important to me, even though I'm scared. It's okay if I'm scared. I don't need to just tell myself to stop being scared. Like, be scared.Do it scared, right? That is part of it. Like do it scared. I also think, you know, people use the word brave for a lot of things. I have shared quite a lot, in the last five years or so about my journey with endometriosis, my journey with A DHD, and people are always telling me that it's really brave of me to share that.And I don't think it is because I didn't find it difficult. I was like, I'm just gonna tell people this. For whatever reason it was really easy. I didn't carry any shame around it. I was just like, let me tell you some things. But there are certainly other things like improv and standup comedy that I do think were brave because I was scared when I did it, and I did it.Scared.[00:28:24] Rowan: Hmm. Well, yeah, it puts bravery in a different context because really I go back to, I used to read my kids, the Franklin Books, Franklin The Turtle.[00:28:33] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:28:34] Rowan: Very, very Canadian if, if, you know, you know. But, beautifully illustrated children's books that just basically tell stories using these, animals that live in the forest but have human experiences.And Franklin had to have surgery one day and you know, everybody kept telling him he was really brave. And then he's talking to the doctor and he said, I don't feel brave. I feel scared. and she said, well, Franklin, that's exactly what bravery is. It's about being scared and doing it anyway.[00:29:02] Lara: It really is. Brave is not just being tough, right?Like brave is doing the things that are scary. And so if you don't think it's scary, I don't think it's brave.[00:29:12] Rowan: Hmm. I like that. I like that. Wow. It's cool having you in the same room.[00:29:18] Lara: I know. It's fun.[00:29:19] Rowan: You could just move into the office and you want to deal with kids or like a spouse or anything.Like, you could just, I, I have a dog so you can hang out with the dog.[00:29:27] Lara: I can just use your dog.[00:29:28] Rowan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could feed you snacks. I'll just throw some snacks in from time to time.[00:29:33] Lara: I mean it, it does sound a bit tempting.[00:29:38] Rowan: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Unboxing It in person.[00:29:44] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:29:44] Rowan: We'reso happy that you joined us,[00:29:46] Lara: and if you have done things that scared you or there are things that you want to do that scare you, tell us. Come to our Substack comment, engage with us. We want to have these conversations with you.We wanna hear about it.[00:29:59] Rowan: We get excited every time we get a substack comment. Every time.[00:30:02] Lara: Every time.[00:30:03] Rowan: All right. Cheers, everybody. Have a good one.[00:30:05] Lara: Thanks. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Layoffs. Breakups. Illness. No matter how diligently we plan out our lives, unexpected change comes for us all in some form or another. It can feel like a giant kick in the teeth, too. But these unexpected twists can often come with some unexpected gifts. This week’s episode of Unboxing It covers all kinds of advice and insight on how to navigate change. And it couldn’t come at a better time, because as a result of some big unexpected life changes, Rowan is opening a queer lil’ coffee shop with his partner Dani!Listen to our podcast episode (obviously) but if you want to support Rowan’s new venture, you can also watch the coffee shop announcement video, subscribe to their Youtube channel, follow their socials, and even buy some merch.Unexpected change isn’t always welcome, but it often comes with some big opportunities for growth—or early mornings pulling espresso shots. Or both.Want more of Lara and Rowan?Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.Transcript (please note, we do not edit the transcript for accuracy so this is entirely what a robot thinks we said)Hey, Rowan here. Just a note that we recorded this podcast a few weeks ago when I was at the beginning of doing something really scary and dealing with some big unexpected changes. If you follow me on social media, you know that we've made some announcements by now and are moving forward with this, but I don't think it hurts to go back and see what it feels like right at the start of dealing with those big changes.Enjoy.[00:00:48] Rowan: we are unboxing , quite the it today. Something that is near and dear to my heart and probably the hearts of many people, navigating sudden change. Not, not just, change, right? Like change is just part of life and sometimes we plan that change and even that might veer off in a direction we don't anticipate.But sudden change is a different kind of beast. I don't know. What do you think about that?[00:01:20] Lara: Absolutely. we struggle with change a lot of the time. But there's a very different way of dealing with it when you know it's coming or when you chose for it's coming, versus it just suddenly appearing out of nowhere.And that is something that also happens, but it is that unexpected sudden. Hey, guess what you get to deal with? That is really tricky for a lot of people to know how to handle it.[00:01:52] Rowan: What types of sudden change come to mind in your own life? If I just say what was a very big surprise in your, decades of life so far?What's the first thing that comes up?[00:02:04] Lara: It's funny because I think that I am the sudden change to a lot of other people. Like I'm the one who comes up with like, I'm going to change everything for everybody ready. You're[00:02:14] Rowan: a chaos gremlin.[00:02:15] Lara: I'm chaos gremlin of like, not just my immediate family, but like my extended family. I'm trying to think of something that wasn't, because if it was my idea, I knew it was coming.[00:02:27] Rowan: you might have only known for five minutes knowing you though.[00:02:30] Lara: True. But then that doesn't feel sudden, does it? yeah. I think that a lot of it is just like, you know when something happens, that you don't know. Even if it was like suddenly realizing that I had a DHD suddenly understanding and accepting that I.Was sick. Right. So that would be one when I got sick very suddenly. that's not true. I was sick. I just dealt with it. I very suddenly became incapacitated.[00:03:03] Rowan: right.[00:03:04] Lara: And so dealing with being somebody who can't do what they want to do was tough for me. Right. Like accepting that kind of change. Like who am I and what's going on?But there's other examples and, I'm not sure that because I, I thrive in change, right? So this is, what makes it trickier because for some people, the way they feel when they encounter what I encounter, I'm like, yeah, awesome. Let's do it. And somebody else is like, my world just fell apart, right?And so. The same thing can feel like multiple things to people, which is why I feel like I'm not coming up with any good examples to share with you for my life.[00:03:41] Rowan: Wow.I can name like 12 different things, although I say 12, I don't know if I can name 12, but I think the first big sudden change for me was that so I'm the eldest of four.I was eight years old when my sister was born. They were second marriage children. 10 when my brother was born and when I was 12, my mom got pregnant a fourth time. The baby that she was carrying, who has grown up to be my amazing youngest brother, she found out, had down syndrome.That was a life changing thing for the whole family. I look back now, I can look back. He's in his mid thirties now, right? So I can, look at it now and go, that was a tumultuous time because there were so many unknowns and there was a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty.And now, him being in our lives is, seriously one of the best things that's ever happened to my family. There's no doubt. Mike has taught us, what unconditional love looks like. He has taught us what true kindness looks like. He has taught us what.being human at the core is, and he's taught us patience and he taught us just all these different things that I just, you know, he taught me advocacy because I watched my mom advocate for him so I can go back and I can go. Mike joining our family was a gift. It really, you know, he is, he is a gift.He's amazing. But we all had identities that were tied to the existence that we knew before he was born. And I think that can be the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around when change is thrusted upon you rather than you seeking it out. So, you know, from my parents, there was this idea that,Yeah, my mom stayed home, but she could always go back to work if she wanted to. Right. But when Mike was born, there were a lot of medical complications and he's doing much better today, but he still deals with a lot of medical stuff and suddenly my mom and dad's life especially looked like, oh, we have a lot more caretaking to do and it's going to go longer than we anticipated when we first decided to have children.He still lives at home. He's in his mid thirties. Right. So I look at that stuff and how it shapes us. when I found out that my child was trans, for example, one of our children is trans and they came out 11 years ago and. I remember thinking, oh, wow, like my role has changed.I used to think I was a parent to three boys. I was mistaken. I actually have two boys and I have a child who is not a boy. Right? and so when I look at it that way, for me, the sudden change is more about accepting that my worldview and the plans that I had are not the reality anymore. And learning to be okay with that.[00:06:35] Lara: Yeah. And again, some of it is, I think, my perception of what big change was. 'cause certainly I've had big moments, I found out at my 12 week ultrasound of my second pregnancy that I was having twins. Yeah, right.[00:06:52] Rowan: Yeah.[00:06:52] Lara: But I also was like. I kind of wondered if I was having twins before, right? Like, there's so many things, but I still didn't really think it was happening until, that day with the ultrasound tech, who clearly, I will just tell you, a lot of people have clearly not taken that news well because when she told us we were having twins, it was said very much like this.Congratulations. You are having twins like put down very scared.[00:07:25] Rowan: Oh. I mean, that is a big change. You're planning for one child, you find out you're having two at once. Yeah. That's a lot.[00:07:33] Lara: It is a lot. And I tell people all the time, twins is way more than twice as hard as one baby.[00:07:41] Rowan: Oh, I believe that. I believe that.Yeah. I mean, I complain, as a trans guy, prior to transition, I gave birth three times and all three of my children were over 10 pounds at birth. And so the joke has always been, I essentially gave birth to twins, but I'm like, no, because you know what? There's only one baby to feed after that.Yes, okay. Yes, they're hungry all the time because they're 10 pounds. But at the same time, it's a whole new world. And this is the thing. We can think ahead and try and plan for everything, but there, really is no way to know when life is going to slap you upside the head with something.[00:08:19] Lara: Not only that, just like how you're going to react to something, you could go through change that you fully chose and it wasn't sudden at all, but like you get to the other side and it's much harder than you thought it was going to be, or you don't like it the way you thought you were going to like it.That is all possible. And so as somebody who. Is happy to live in change. This is not a problem for me, but for other people, this is a big problem, right? Like I'm not trying to scare people into being like, actually guys, it turns out nothing is ever sure. You never know what's gonna happen. It could all go wrong all the time.Like that is not what I'm trying to do here. But at the same time, there's a little bit of, we don't know what's coming and so how do we. Still just live a life that works and be true to ourselves and follow our values and know who the people are that we can rely on and understand how to create a support system so that regardless of what happens, we know how to have the right sort of protection around us to be okay.[00:09:30] Rowan: Great. Can you teach me how to do that? Yeah, because here's the thing. I have an anxiety disorder and so, you know, people often say it like this, you know, depression is living in the past, anxiety is living in the future, and anxiety for me. It is all about what if, what if, what if, what if? Oh, let's catastrophize this.what if, oh, you know I, I run the gamut of anxiety issues. And so change no, historically has not been comfortable for me. But the nice thing about approaching 50, so I've been doing this for a while now, and I have been through, probably, I would argue more change than the average person.And more unplanned change than the average person. I've learned to make peace with it and even embrace it at this point, because it's about now when change hits and it does, and I'm gonna get into some recent change in a little bit, I'm able to go, okay, well, I've made it through every other situation where things have turned upside down.I've come out better and, better equipped, wiser, stronger, definitely more resilient. And so that has helped me weather a lot of this. now when it hits, it's less, it's less terrifying, I guess, that it used to be. I don't know. I, I know you don't have the same relationship with it, but I wonder what your thoughts are on, wisdom and age and change.[00:11:00] Lara: And I have thoughts. I wanna get into that, but I also wanted to say first, the very first time I ever heard you speak, it might have been the very first time you did a formal talk, was all about like how uncomfortable with change you were.[00:11:14] Rowan: Is it really? Oh my goodness. That must have been years ago.[00:11:17] Lara: I was a very long time ago.Because, yeah, I think that this would've been when like the idea of doing a talk in front of a group of people would've been scary to you because that was new.[00:11:30] Rowan: Oh, it sure was. It sure was.[00:11:33] Lara: and you have gone through many a change Rowan.[00:11:36] Rowan: What do you mean?[00:11:43] Lara: I think that we learn what we're Capable of, right? Like the more we do things, the more we learn what we're capable of. And therefore the older we get, the more likely it is that we have experienced things that forced us to confront what we're capable of and we move on and we get better and we get more comfortable with it.And things do get easier the more we understand what we're capable of, who we are. And how life just kind of works. And so I do think the older we get, the easier it gets and I'm also approaching 50 and I'm not remotely uncomfortable about that because every decade. I've hit has been better than the last, right?Like, I'm more comfortable in my skin. I am more confident as a person. I don't care as much what other people think. Like I think that with age that comes, it's not automatic. You do need to do some work to get there, but it does get there if you're willing to like look inside and try to figure out who you are.If you don't try to look at how you feel or how things are going, right? If you're like, I'm putting my head in the sand and never thinking about how hard things are, I don't know that things will get easier.If you're willing to look at things to confront, some things to be introspective, I think the older you get, the easier things get.[00:13:10] Rowan: Yeah. I also think that the people who I've met who had a plan growing up and that plan came to fruition and they went through their lives with very little upheaval. Let's just say, you know, like I, I, do know somebody who, knew what she wanted to do when she went to school, went to school for it, knew she wanted to get married and have a child.Did that, then got got her dream job. and then she lost her dream job She didn't know how to deal with it. It was really, really hard for her to be laid off. , It was the first big unexpected thing that had ever happened to her before. And she made it through.Of course she did. But I would say, and I think she would probably say it was a lot harder for her than if she had had those experiences earlier where something had not gone the way she had planned. And I'm not wishing for that for everybody. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying that if you are somebody who has had a lot of this type of stuff,You do kind of get used to it. You do kind of get used to, oh, okay. Yeah, I had this idea. That's not happening. All right. So I have to go over here and I have to do it this way, maybe, Okay. We're gonna try over here. Okay. This is an opportunity and that is actually what I've started to look at things, as when they happen unexpectedly.So I'm gonna get into something that is really personal and just wanna stay upfront. Usually I take some notes before we record these things. So I have talking points. I did not make a single note for this, and I think it's because it's really personal and really timely for me right now. In fact, I'm the one who asked that we discuss this.So, going back about three years, I would say I was at the height of my career. As an advocate, as a speaker, as an author. you know, I had, traveled parts of the world to give talks. I had gone on speaking tours. I had multiple awards. I mean, you just, you sort of name it.And like, my life as a former high school dropout, you know, street kid had really sort of. Turned the corner and I had raised this beautiful family and I had this great career that I was very proud of because I was helping people and I wasn't making big bucks, but I was helping to put food on the table and make car payments and all those other things, right?And, then all of the sort of anti woke, anti DEI, dare I say, MAGA type behaviors. Really came into focus. And they grew and grew and grew, and my work largely started to dry up because nobody wants to hire a trans person. Not that nobody wants, There are some places for sure that nobody wants to hire a trans person, period.But what I'm saying is in my particular role, nobody wanted to hire me anymore. I made $12,000 last year. That's a very vulnerable thing for me to admit because it is way less than I have made in the past few years, and I looked at that number when I filed my taxes and I said, I don't think this is working anymore.I can't control how politics have changed. I can't control that. Companies are currently shying away. From working with people like me who really are just spreading a message of love and acceptance, I'm not lecturing, I'm not trying to tell people who to be or who not to be. I'm just telling my story and that used to resonate in a big way, and it's not now.And I've talked to other trans people and queer people in the DEI space and they have said very much the same thing. It's just, it's really hard out there right now. So that was all happening at the same time as I was trying to get a TV show off the ground and worked really hard with a production company.But guess what? As much as the feedback was very, very positive from networks, they loved the idea of the show that I wanted to create. It just isn't the right time politically for that as well. So my hopes were dashed there too, because I really wanted to bring some queer joy into the world with that particular show.And that all happened, sort of the filing of the taxes , and the show at the same time as my partner lost her job. She'd been working in her industry for 25 years and she got laid off in a restructuring. Same week, so really hard week, lots of change. And I turned to her and I said, well, first of all, I let her have a day.I let her have a day where she was feeling terrible. Then I also took a day where I was feeling terrible. Then we came back to the drawing board and I said, you know, we keep talking about when we retire and how we'd like to open a coffee shop like a space. That is comfortable and nice and maybe turns into a wine bar at night, or, I mean, who knows, right?But something lovely. We always thought we'd do that later. What if we did it now? What if we did it right now? What if we pooled every resource we can think of? And we just took the leap. We did the research, we talked at the right people, we did the right trainings, but we did it. We actually did it. And so we turned this really difficult, scary thing.Into an opportunity and we just closed it on a lease for a coffee shop in Toronto. That is also going to be a space for queer people a safe, happy, comfortable space where you feel at home. So I'm still able to continue the work that I've been doing, but do it out of this.coffee shop, this cafe that is mine. So I say this because, it's terrifying as all changes. It's really scary. and I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing it anyway and I'm so excited to be taking these sudden, unexpected kicks. to the shins and turning them into something beautiful.And I think that is really what I wanna get across today, is that sudden change is scary for most of us. Maybe not for you, but for most of us, I would say it's very scary. And also it can be the catalyst that changes your whole life for the better.[00:19:17] Lara: Mm-hmm. One of the things that I've heard multiple times is that being scared and nervous and being excited are very similar, feelings in your body.Mm-hmm. Like the way that your body brings that up can feel very similar. But with a little bit of like, how am I taking it? Right? So there's like that feeling. I don't know if you've heard people say this, but probably like, oh, I'm real nerve-cited about this,[00:19:41] Rowan: right? Like, yeah, yeah, exactly[00:19:43] Lara: of course I'm scared, but like I'm also really excited and so I want to focus on excited and figure out how to deal with the nervous, scared part. But if you only are like, this feeling is a bad feeling, this feeling is a thing that we don't like, bad, things are coming, then that's how it's gonna feel.And just as we're talking, I'm like, you know, it's so funny because I hate being scared, right? Like, I won't watch a scary movie. I have such difficulty with that. But I think. For me, change. It might make me nervous, but it doesn't make me scared in the same kind of way. And it is. Some of this is mindset, right?Like if you expect things are gonna work out, if you expect that you have the right people around you to help you, then. The more likely that is to happen. So you were asking earlier, like, how do you make that happen when I said, have the right people around you. Right. And some of that is being really intentional and thinking about the people you have around you.I have a friend, Jenny Mitchell, who brought up this concept to me of having like. Your personal board of directors, right? Mm-hmm. Like who, if you needed to sit down and like, make a decision about something, the way a board makes a decision, who would you have in the room with you and do you have people in your life like that?And knowing who they are, whether it's your spouse, your friend, your kid, your mentor, like there could be so many different kinds of people. But knowing that you have figured out that there are people in your life that can be, that for you, can help you weather so many things, and as you're talking about this space that you're going to be opening, that's going to be, first of all, you creating that for other people, right?That you have created a space where they can find those people. Who would be on their board of directors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it's also just creating a community of peers that probably is going to bring even more of those kinds of people in your life that you would put on your board.[00:21:48] Rowan: Yeah. I think that's the thing, like my whole life I think is about connection.I spent a lot of time when I was younger, feeling very isolated. I didn't have a lot of friends. I certainly didn't have friends at school. I. And, ever since I've wanted to not only not feel alone, but make sure that other people don't feel alone in my presence. I want everybody to feel welcome and safe and seen and accepted, and that is sort of the gift of all those things that happened before, because now I can bring them in to this space that I'm creating.I'm so glad, and I can't believe I'm saying this. I had such a big cry this morning. There's, another bit of vulnerability for you, but I sobbed like a baby this morning, and it was because I really took stock of all of the things that I needed to let go. This idea that. Things will turn around anytime now and I'll start getting calls again for gigs that maybe there's another network door that we haven't knocked on, whatever it might be.Maybe somebody's gonna get in touch with me about consulting. I had to let go of all of that to throw myself into this new project and there is a loss again, when we talk about identity, I was very strongly attached to this identity I had as a very public facing trans advocate, and it was because I could see the change that it was creating.It wasn't about fame, it wasn't about, attention. It was never about any of those things. It was always about just creating that change. And so the idea of losing all of that made me feel. Like, well, I guess the message I was telling myself rather, was that I could no longer create that change if I didn't have it.But that's not actually true because now I'm going to be creating change maybe on a micro scale, but every single day. That I am here in the coffee shop, that I am serving wine to people at night who just wanna relax. That I am just, greeting regulars who come in that I'm making room for maybe support groups or queer book clubs or poetry nights or whatever it might be.I'm helping. To create that connection. Anyway, I'm making that change and I'm helping other people make that change. So I had to say goodbye to what was, to embrace what is, and the change, I think is going to be for the better, not just for me, but maybe for other people who are gonna end up really needing that space.[00:24:29] Lara: Yeah. And as soon as you said losing, I was like, you're not losing. because to me obviously I am not personally experiencing it and therefore I understand that it's different, right? Like I understand the feeling of losing something and that it feels true in every way when you're going through it.And like that it is true for you in that moment. And so I'm not taking away that, you're losing[00:24:53] Rowan: Sure.[00:24:54] Lara: , Some of it, but at the same time. What I see from where I'm sitting is that you are going to be creating a new platform to be able to make a change. That if somebody comes to you at any given time and says, we would like to pay you to come and speak, you can still do that.[00:25:13] Rowan: Yep.[00:25:14] Lara: That we do a podcast and you're affecting and impacting people. In that way. Yeah. So are you losing it or does it look different? And, you know, it's semantics, but that's what all of this conversation is about. It is down to how do I look at something, and even if it's the same thing I'm looking at, if I see it slightly differently, if I call it something different, if I understand it to be something that doesn't make me feel as sad, but it's still the same thing, like I'm very much against toxic positivity or trying to pretend everything is okay all of the time. Like that is not my jam.[00:25:51] Rowan: Mm-hmm.[00:25:52] Lara: But I do think that there are opportunities to figure out what's working and how it can keep working in a real world, and how you can view things in a way that feel.Okay. And I don't always think everything's gonna be wonderful, but I have a really strong belief that things will be okay for me. And I think that's where the anxiety piece is different, right? Like, I'm gonna be okay. Am I gonna be great? We'll see, I don't know, but I will be okay.And that strong belief within me, I think carries me through scary things.[00:26:28] Rowan: It's the key to resilience. Honestly. If you look at work from resilience researchers like Dr. Brene Brown, for example, they will tell you that having that core belief about yourself that you can get through anything, just knowing that.Is what is going to see through the people who have that are the most likely to be successful overall and success is measured many different ways. So I'm not necessarily talking financially or romantically or whatever it is, right? But I'm just saying that overall they tend to land on their feet.They tend to land on their feet. And I wrote, in my second book, one sunny afternoon, I wrote a chapter called Victimized, not a victim, that I think is relevant here. When I, I'll tell this story 'cause it's actually really funny. I went in to see a doctor and it was a weird situation. This doctor was recommended to me by a friend.I was pretty sure I had postpartum depression. I was like 21 years old and it had been a few months and I was just feeling really bad. And my, friend said, you need to go see this doctor. He's a little weird, but he's great. And the nice thing about him is he's a family doctor who also does counseling.Okay. Red flag number one. But again, I'm 21 years old. And also if this doctor who takes my health insurance is going to provide me with counseling for free. Awesome. I'll take it. So I go see this, this, this weird little man. He's a weird little man. And I see him in his actual doctor's office.And then he takes me into this back counseling room. And so first off, he's like, yeah, you're depressed for sure, and we're gonna need to , start you on some medication, but we should also do counseling. And so he's asking me about my life. Now, up until that point, I had lived in shelters. I had been in rehab, I had had all these things happen to me.I mean, it was one thing after the next. And I had told myself this story. That I was, all of the things that had happened to me. So he takes out one sheet of paper and he says, tell me the things that have happened to you. Tell me about your life. And I laughed.I was like, oh, you're gonna need more than one page. He's like, alright. So he takes out this pad of paper. And sure enough, it's like three or four pages of just this happened and then this happened to me, and then this person did that to me and then I ended up like this and isn't my life so hard? And it's really tough.And he looks at it afterwards. He goes, okay. Wow, Rowan. Yeah, I, I can see that a lot has happened to you. That's a lot to deal with for someone so young. And then bro rips the papers off of the pad, rumples them up. Right in front of me, throws them at the wall behind him and says, but that's all in the past.Do you know what one of your biggest problems is? You're a victim, Rowan. You play the part of a victim. He's like, yes, all these terrible things happen to you, but they are not you. so here's the first thing I want you to do. Red flag number three or four or five at this point, but okay. He says, I want you to go home and write out, I am not a victim 1000 times like lines on a chalkboard.Like Bart Simpson, right? But in a notebook I want you to bring it back to me next week. And if you can't do that, we're not proceeding. I was so mad. I stomped out of his office, but I'm also, again, I'm 21 years old. I don't know what therapy looks like. So I go home and I start writing a, I am not a victim, over and over and over.And, you know, by about Line 600, I really started to get it that I am in fact not a victim. And I went back and like my mindset had completely shifted. I was like, yeah, you know what? You're right, doctor, whoever, I am not a victim. I was victimized. He's like, exactly. Now you can get better. So no, I am not in any way, on any level advocating what this weird little doctor did to me.Like not at all. I do not think this is proper therapy, but I will say the message got across and that has helped me so much when all of these things happen. Right. That being said, I also think that when you're navigating sudden change. Or change of any kind that is not comfortable, that involves, letting go of something or whatever it might be.We also need to make room for our feelings. Like my good cry today. I can be really excited about what's down the road and even what's happening right now, but I still have to let go of and deal with what happened before.[00:30:53] Lara: It's okay to have feelings this is something I learned to do in my forties, Rowan, which is cry like honest to God, I suppressed most of my feelings for a really big part of my life.Mm-hmm. And I can remember when I was talking myself into not suppressing them in, right? So like there's this feeling when you're about to cry where, I don't know if you know this, but feelings happen in your body, not in your head. I didn't, I didn't know that for a really long time.[00:31:24] Rowan: Wow.[00:31:24] Lara: But I know that feeling of I'm gonna cry. Right. And it kind of feels like, for me anyway, it comes like from the middle of my chest and it's gonna come up and then I'm going to start to cry and I am able to vary most of the time. Stop that right before it gets anywhere. Like you're like, Nope, not feeling that.And so as I started to learn that feeling your feelings is a good idea, I would have to like talk myself through it, right? Like I felt it coming. And it's like, don't stop it. Don't stop it. Don't stop it. It's okay. And then cry.So when you said you had a good cry was like excellent. it is not in our best interest to bottle in all our feelings. I remember going on stress leave, I think it was almost 18 years ago. And when I went to the doctor, I was like I'm like vibrating inside of my chest and I can't turn my head.That was like a lot of me not feeling my feelings until my body said, well, I guess we're gonna have to try something else.[00:32:27] Rowan: Yeah, yeah. Our nervous systems need that release. We need to let go of that stress and crying is honestly one of the healthiest ways we can deal with that. Other ways to do it, you know, in specific moments, can be like.Putting some music on and dancing around or having a shower or there's all these other ways we can release. But I've done all those in the last, two, three weeks since we've been really planning all this stuff out. I needed that cry. I needed that release. it was like the closing of a chapter.It was the last little bit before acceptance. I'm gonna just cry this out. You know, my partner came in and gave me a pep talk and held me and literally wiped my tears away. And, okay. Rowan, don't cry again. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Rowan. Oh wait, no.I'm supposed to let myself cry. That's right. We were just having this conversation.[00:33:21] Lara: It's tricky in the middle of a podcast though. I understand that[00:33:24] Rowan: nobody needs to hear me blow my nose right now. but really, like, it was just this really important moment and I feel like I was able to turn the page.Accept that my life is going in this direction now and this direction is something I'm really, really looking forward to, but would've never happened, or at least not have happened in the way that it's happening and certainly in the timeframe that it's happening in, if all the bad stuff that we didn't plan for hadn't happened.[00:33:54] Lara: There's so many things I wanna say, and I don't know where to start with all of that. One of them is just that, and I come back to this a lot. It's a lot of what's in my book, right? Is this whole, what were we taught to be that is unnecessary? And one of them is to be strong. And how many times have you even maybe done yourself, had like one of your kids start to cry and you're like, don't cry.Don't cry. You're okay. You're okay. But like, maybe they're not okay right away, and that's okay also, letting people feel their feelings is not something that we've been taught to do. What we were taught to do all our lives was to just get through it, right? Like it's not like don't wallow in your feelings, but that translates into don't have feelings.And that's not actually a thing that's good for us. We have feelings. They're not all positive. So if we allow ourselves to feel your feelings, then when you're going through change, that's difficult, you're not feeling like things are falling apart because you're having big feelings. Does that make sense?just because things feel hard doesn't mean they're breaking apart. It's just feeling yucky right now. It's just like angsty or upsetting or I don't know what, but like just because things feel bad doesn't mean we're done. Life is blown up. gonna live in our van down by the river.[00:35:20] Rowan: Oh, the van down by the river.you know, if I may, as a trans person, I think that, I call them transitional feelings, right? Because they are those really big feelings, and that's a transitional feeling can happen in any unexpected moment, right? That includes. If your partner, you know your boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever it is, proposes to you.Or you propose to someone and they say yes, and you're over the moon elated. I mean, it's just the best day of your whole life and you're so excited and you can't wait to tell everybody. And that feeling is so strong, but it's not going to last. It's not meant to last. It's wonderful and it feels great.And then it passes because we move into the next phase of our life where now we're engaged to somebody and now we're maybe planning a wedding or figuring out when we're gonna move in together or whatever it might be. It's the same thing like moving from perhaps a floundering situation.Into taking a risk, you know, like I'm doing right now and pouring my life savings into a coffee shop. going there, there had to be that transitional moment where I was letting all the feelings out and that's, I think that's so good. I. I'm sad. I learned to cry in rehab when I was 14 years old.Like, that's what I really, you know, apparently you can do that instead of drink. That's what I learned by the way. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah.Yeah. Cool. Really good to know that early. but that has allowed me to embrace crying for a long time. Although I will say men, if you are listening. It is harder to cry with testosterone in your system.It is harder to get there, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it. I do know that that barricade is there. there's a hurdle, an extra hurdle I have to get over now for my feelings to permeate my eyeballs, but I feel so much better when it happens. So please, pleasemake room to cry.[00:37:24] Lara: Yeah. Feelings are not a bad thing, and I think that that's where so much of this comes from. Like, it's okay to be scared. It's okay to be uncomfortable. It's okay to be sad. And so if the sudden thing happens to you and all of those feelings are there. That's not because you are weak. It's not because you've done something wrong.It's not because life and the whole world is falling apart, even though it feels like that sometimes. Like legitimately, I fully recognize that, but I think it's harder when we don't allow ourselves to do that if we haven't given ourselves permission. To feel our feelings. Then on top of everything else we're going through, we are now beating ourselves up for not being strong and capable and the kind of person who can deal with these things.And I don't wanna pretend that I don't struggle with things, right? Like, trust me, I struggle with a whole lot of things. I'm not, saying that I deal with all change without any, blips at all. But I do think that allowing ourselves to just feel and not think that we have to be a certain way, whether they're not, living up to some kind of ideal or something like that, gives us room to say, what's next gives us room for what do I want?again, acknowledging privilege of not feeling like that means I'm gonna lose. My home and all of that kind of thing. But I do think that there's something to be said for, alright, then what?[00:38:53] Rowan: Yeah. Then what? Yeah, and when you, talk to a lot of really successful people and again, I don't wanna equate success with money.I wanna equate success with people able to live a life that is as authentic to them as possible. I think that to me is the measure of success. a lot of them have gone through a whole lot to get there. They didn't just grow up, say, you know what I wanna do? I wanna open a skateboard shop by the ocean, and teach kids how to skateboard and build their own boards or whatever it might be.Usually. They had to go through loss to get there. And what we see as sudden change often also includes loss, unfortunately. But it does, it could be loss of a career, loss of a loved one, loss of perhaps,mobility. and I, can't really speak to that one personally, but I know some people that that has happened to right where , they suddenly can't.use their bodies in the same way or whatever it might be, but they go through this type of loss, some kind of loss, and feel lost themselves for a bit before they pivot, before they figure out that they can go in a different direction. so listening to their stories when we're going through change and it feels really scary, can provide.sort of a lighthouse effect where we feel like we're in a storm and over in the distance there is that light. And that's what I'm hoping to do too, is sort of be that lighthouse for somebody down the road when they're like, oh wow. I just feel so lost because everything has changed and I don't know what to do now and I feel rudderless.you know, I felt rudderless too, and I actually have for a while now. And now I hope. In two years or something, when somebody comes into my shop and maybe shares that kind of stuff with me, I can say, yeah, I've been there, I've been there, and now I'm here. And I wouldn't change a thing.again, we didn't have notes for this, but I personally feel like I got through everything that I wanted to say and I felt I needed to say, but I really wanted to do this episode because. I wanna empower somebody else who might be going through those changes, both as somebody who has been through some and gotten through the other side, a better person, and somebody who is currently in the middle of one of the scariest things he's ever done after all those other scary things, and really wants to believe and has to believe that that unexpected change is leading to something better.[00:41:24] Lara: Yeah. remembering that we're not meant to do things alone is also a big one, right? So when we ask for help, when we talk to people and try to learn from them, it's not because we weren't good enough to do it alone, it's because that's the better way of doing things, in my opinion, right? Use your community, talk to people.It's really hard to have a clear picture of what's true. When you are in the middle of panic, you need other people to be able to reflect back to you what's actually true in certain moments and that's what I, hope that people get the most out of this, is that there is hope and that there's understanding that when things feel difficult, it's not because they're doing something wrong.Andthe whole, then what? Like look for that.[00:42:13] Rowan: Hmm. you're like a podcast mom. I'm like, it's okay, champ. I'm podcast dad. But you're podcast mom. when you say these things, I really hope we do some video at some point so people can watch my face as you are sharing this really powerful, insightful, and yet sweet, because you're the one saying it.lesson, and this little bit of guidance and I'm like, I need you. Thank you. Thank you podcast mom. I needed that. I really needed that today. I appreciate you.[00:42:45] Lara: I will take it. I like podcast mom. I take it,[00:42:48] Rowan: it's your new title. Put it on your business cards.[00:42:50] Lara: Excellent.[00:42:52] Rowan: Thank you for joining us today.If you like what you hear, please give us a follow, give us a review, subscribe to us, follow us on our substack, anything you wanna do to show support for this, lovely little show of ours. We love doing it. Every week[00:43:09] Lara: we do. Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Lara is speaking at a conference this week on a topic we immediately knew would be a good one for us to Unbox - Saying No. Non. Nej. Tidak. Hapana. It’s a word in just about every language because it’s a crucial one. (Rowan wanted to list about 40 more of them because he’s a language nerd. He would like to point out his self-restraint here.)Yet, despite its importance, the word “no” can come with a flurry of feelings both for the person who hears it and the one who says it. In this episode, we’re focusing on the latter. Why is saying “no” so difficult for some of us? What lessons did society teach us that make it harder? And what, if anything, can we do to make it easier? Is there a mindset shift that needs to happen? Does we get better at it over time?These are the thoughts we carry with us into this episode, and we hope something we said here helps make this small but powerful word a simpler one to use.No.Cha.Ora.Jo.(We’d better wrap this up before Rowan gets carried away again.)Transcript (please note, we don’t edit these so there could be some errors in the transcription)[00:00:00] Rowan: There are actually billions of people on the planet.you don't have to be the one to say yes to everything. it's that simple and I wish I had always known it was that simple, Because I didn't, I really thought for some reason that if I didn't do certain things, the sky would fall. Welcome back to unboxing it. I'm Lara.And I'm Rowan,[00:00:45] Lara: and we are going to talk about something today that I wanted to bring up. I am going to be speaking about this topic at a conference soon, and it is something that I know a lot of people struggle with and are honestly kind of afraid of, and it is the idea of figuring out how to say no.[00:01:05] Rowan: No, look, I just did it. Alright. Thanks for joining us today.[00:01:11] Lara: Um, yeah. Done just like this? No,[00:01:14] Rowan: no. Yeah. You can say it a bunch of way. You go nah or nope, nope. Is an option. Yep. I digress. I'm just, I'm just teasing. I actually have a really hard time saying no sometimes, so I'm looking forward to this episode.[00:01:26] Lara: Yeah, it's something that we struggle with. You know, I'm speaking at a conference where it's about specifically in the workplace. and so it can come up in lots of different ways where we feel like we should be agreeable, we should say yes, we should. And you know, should is not my favorite word. do what we can for people when they ask us to.However, doing everything all of the time for everybody, regardless of whether or not we have capacity is not good for anybody.[00:02:00] Rowan: You know what really gets me is that there are people who are just inherently good at saying no to things. I've met them, I've asked them for things, and they've said no.[00:02:11] Lara: Yeah,[00:02:11] Rowan: and I'm never really upset that they said no. I think just as somebody who's had to learn how to do it and doesn't always do it incredibly well, I'm more just in awe of them. And I think, you know, what is it? Is it upbringing? Were you just born like that? you know, or did you actually learn it?But it's so seamlessly a part of your life now that it doesn't seem like you're trying, it's just like rolls off the tongue.[00:02:40] Lara: It's probably all of those things depending on the person. And I think the more confident we are in why we're saying no, in the fact that we are not obligated to do things that don't work for us, the easier it gets to start saying it.And with so many of these things that we talk about, it's not easy at the beginning,[00:03:00] Lara: but it does get easier.[00:03:02] Rowan: it does get easier from experience. It really does. But let's start at the beginning, like why do you think some people have a hard time saying, no,[00:03:11] Lara: we're meant to be agreeable.That's how we've been told to be right. This goes back to all the societal expectations we have. We're meant to be agreeable. We're meant to try to be helpful as much as possible. we're meant to be selfless and saying no might feel selfish.[00:03:29] Rowan: Ooh, that word.[00:03:30] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:03:31] Rowan: Nobody likes that word. Nobody likes to align themselves with the idea of being selfish.Right.[00:03:38] Lara: Which is what Saying no can feel like. If somebody asks you for something, and again, like I work with a lot of people, in their businesses who struggle with saying no. And some of it is they no longer have the capacity to do it all, and they really want to help, right? Somebody's asking them for something and they want to be able to do it.So how do you say no when it makes you feel like they need this help and I can do it. it feels so difficult and misaligned to say no, but again, we cannot do everything for everyone. It is simply not possible.[00:04:17] Rowan: So maybe also a bit of guilt or even shame, like if I don't help this person, if I don't do this thing that I know I technically can do if I don't do it.then I'm not a very good person. What does that say about me as a person, right?[00:04:33] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:04:34] Rowan: I also think there's definitely, a gender imbalance here where women and people who were raised as girls and women tend to be taught extra. That saying no is bad. And that the whole people pleasing element comes into it as well, right?We want people to like us. I say, we as, for people who may not have listened to our other episodes, I am a transgender man and I spent over 40 years, on the other side of things. So I come at this with a fair amount of experience, too personal experience, but we are taught that. We're gonna get ahead in life if people like us, right?And that we're going to have a happier life if people like us. So saying, no flies in the face of that from a logical sense. And I think it takes a while to unlearn that. you talk to people who are in their, you know, maybe thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. Especially when you get to midlife, there's that idea of having your villain era.Mm-hmm. Your villain era being very much about me and setting boundaries and learning to focus, you know, put myself front and center But up until then, we're running ourselves ragged a lot of the time, just saying yes to everything.[00:06:05] Lara: The fact that anybody like, so I haven't heard this whole villain era thing, but I am not surprised that people say that.But just in that name, you're basically, or whoever came up with this or the joke of it, because again, it's, you know, clearly meant to be the joke of it, right? Is that when you say no and you have boundaries, you're being a villain and you're being selfish, but like, no. Oh, you just[00:06:29] Rowan: said it.[00:06:30] Lara: I did.[00:06:32] Rowan: Good job villain.[00:06:33] Lara: I know like to me it's like it really is around the confidence piece. It's understanding that I have the right to decide what's right for me. I get to choose what makes sense. I don't have to do anything for you. Unless I want to, and that unless I take care of me, I'm not gonna be able to help anybody.This whole idea of, you know, if I don't take care of me, if I don't have boundaries, if I keep saying yes to everything, I'm gonna burn out and be able to help nobody.[00:07:13] Rowan: Burnout is really serious. Like we use the term very flippantly, right? But burnout, as someone who has gone through it, uh, I think at least three times now, diagnosed burnout.It is an all encompassing exhaustion.[00:07:30] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:07:31] Rowan: And it isn't just mental, it's physical and the recovery time from it. Is a lot longer than you probably think it is. If you've never had burnout. It isn't just, oh, I'm getting worn down at my job, or, oh, I'm getting really worn down. you know, caretaking or whatever it might be likeyou've gone beyond that now because you've taken so much on, for whatever reason, whether because you've had no choice or you've had a choice, but you've continued to prioritize others over yourself either way. It doesn't matter. It's not a blame game, but you get to the point where it is just, you cannot go a step further.Every day feels like, the end of a marathon, every single day feels like dread. The idea of taking one more thing on is so overwhelming that it's practically paralyzing it is a terrible, terrible situation if you have not gone through burnout. Do yourself a favor and do that preventative stuff to make sure that you don't, and that includes learning to set, oh, here's a big word, right?Boundaries.[00:08:38] Lara: Boundaries,[00:08:39] Rowan: boundaries.[00:08:41] Lara: Boundaries are difficult to start implementing when you haven't done it before, but I truly believe they're good for everybody. That saying no to people or saying. No, at this point, or I can't do more than this, like whatever the boundary is, it's good for other people to either take some things on themselves that might be good for them.It can be good for them to just have a better understanding of what's true and real for other people. Like it really isn't just about being non-compliant. It isn't about being. Contrary. It isn't about refusal. It's about making sure that things are working for people.[00:09:23] Rowan: yeah, an incredibly healthy thing.There is a mindset shift because I think if you're not used to setting boundaries in for years, I had no idea how to set a boundary. The idea of setting them does feel contrary. It does feel like suddenly I am going to be a jerk to everybody. Suddenly I am going to be,a very unwelcome face amongst friends and family and colleagues because I am prioritizing my needs over the needs of others where necessary.But it isn't like that. I'm going to say that. Yes. When you first start setting boundaries, there can be some people because they're not used to you setting boundaries where this new behavior comes up on your part. And there might be some pushback. There might be some pushback because they're like, whoa, what's this, what's Rowan doing now?you always do this for me? When I ask what do you mean you're not gonna do that? What do you mean you don't wanna go out tonight? What do you mean you can't get that report in on Tuesday and it has to be on Thursday? So whatever it is, they don't know.And so there may be some pushback. It is about having good communication. It is about being able to state what the boundary is and first of all, it's about knowing why you're setting the boundary. What is it that is important here, where you need to set a boundary and how you're going to set the boundary, how you're going to deal with any pushback.If somebody does push back against that boundary. What the consequences will be if that boundary is not respected. That I think is the hardest part for a lot of people. Don't you think that that idea of, what am I going to do if somebody crosses that boundary?[00:11:09] Lara: Mm-hmm. is difficult, and I remember the first time I heard somebody say, boundaries aren't something that other people cross.It's something that you need to hold, right? So remembering that a boundary is something that you're responsible for and you're gonna decide to what level you're gonna hold that boundary, right? Like prefiguring that out and knowing that it's your responsibility. You don't just tell somebody one day.don't ever cross this boundary, whatever it is. I don't want you to call me after 4:00 PM I don't know why. That's my example. But if I don't want you to call me after 4:00 PM and you call me at 7:00 PM and I answer the phone and I say, why did you call me after 4:00 PM I told you I don't like that, versus I don't answer the call after 4:00 PM Right?Like, some of it is about really holding. What you say to be true so that people believe you. Because if you say one thing and then behave differently, people aren't going to believe you, so they are going to keep trying to get you to do stuff.[00:12:07] Rowan: Yeah. I think, abusive relationships aside,[00:12:10] Lara: yes,[00:12:11] Rowan: we do teach people how to treat us.That's just a fact, right? If I have a group of people in my life and I let that group of people. Make fun of me all the time. I let them leave me out of things all the time. You know, I let them place me at the bottom, whatever it might be all the time. At some point that's on me.Like if I recognize that this is happening and if I recognize, say that me saying things, maybe I try and set some boundaries. Maybe I try and that's not working. At some point, it becomes my responsibility to walk away.[00:12:47] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:12:47] Rowan: You know, if I'm in a really toxic work environment now, again, I always feel like I have to, this is, this comes from being on Twitter for a million years before I finally left Twitter, where you say something and I was like, but you forgot about this, and you forgot about that.So I feel like I need to preface this. Some people do not have the luxury of leaving a job for another job. But let's say we're not in a terrible economic situation. If I continue to work in a toxic work environment and nothing is working right, at some point it's on me to find something else, right?Like I think that part of saying no is taking your power back. Part of setting a boundary is taking your power back and sometimes part of realizing that saying no. Setting boundaries is not working and needing to move on is also taking your power back.[00:13:39] Lara: Mm-hmm.And that's a really great segue because.Some of the times when people say no, especially in the workplace, it's because they're afraid that by saying no, it's going to cost them something. Is it going to cost them their reputation with their boss? Is it going to cost them their entire job? Is it going to cost them? You know, the promotion that they want, like all of that is a huge fear.Like, I cannot say no, or else everything will fall apart. Like, it's not just that I, don't wanna be selfish if I say, no, everything will break. I can't do it. And that's a real fear people have, and I understand where it comes from.[00:14:20] Rowan: it is, I think in the workplace, I think in caretaking situations too.I stayed home with my kids for a long time. I worked from home, but my focus was primarily on my kids. And because I was home, I got asked to do a ton of stuff, like the teachers knew I was home and I was one of the few parents who was, so they were asking me to do every bit of volunteering possible at the school.But I was also trying to build my business knowing that I wasn't going to be home forever. That was never my goal. I was trying to build up my business also because we needed money, but it doesn't matter. The point is I had other things that I wanted to prioritize, and I was constantly feeling like I had to show up to that field trip because if I didn't show up then the kids couldn't go.And there was a mindset shift that had to happen where at some point, and I don't know where I have four kids, but at some point I had to think to myself, you know, if I don't go, two things are going to happen. Either some other parent is going to take time away from their schedule to go and fill that need.Or there will be two or three or four field trips that just don't happen because there aren't enough adults there for supervision. And other parents, if they want their kids to go on field trips, will have to make adjustments. But if I always say yes, nobody else is going to step up. And that's, you know, volunteer situations, work situations where you're asked to take on extra work.you know, oh, hey, so and so can you stay late and work on this? Oh, hey, can you do this, little freebie for a client, on the weekend? If you are always, always the person who says yes, because if you don't, something bad might happen. You're not giving other people the opportunity to step up and move things around and do it too.you're not Atlas holding up the world even though it feels that way. None of us are Atlas holding up the world.[00:16:30] Lara: I wanna say a million things again. Always. This comes up a lot for me. Number one. Even though I was home, I never volunteered for a single field trip. and I think partially because the very first time I volunteered in the classroom, my kid like freaked out when it was time for me to go, I was like, oh, it's better if I never come here again.[00:16:49] Rowan: Like it just made it worse.[00:16:51] Lara: Yep. And I held that it happened. One time I volunteered in the classroom for my oldest kid and then I was like, that went badly. I am never doing this again. So one of them is like you set that expectation that it should be you and you were needed partially yourself, right?Like[00:17:10] Rowan: of course[00:17:10] Lara: when the call came out that volunteers were needed, you were like, I can do it. I should do it. And now I must do it Like, that kind of Step-by-step came to this place of really feeling obligated, and that's not necessarily true in terms of, you know, earlier you said some people are really good at saying no, and I think sometimes when people ask things, and it's so important to remember this, sometimes when people ask things, they are just asking because they don't know.If you're gonna be able to say yes or no, and if you say no, they're like, oh, okay. And that is the end of it, right? Like, I'm wondering if you could help me with this. I don't know if that's something you do and you're like, no, not really. So you're like, okay, thanks, and then we're done. But if you feel like you should say yes to anything that ever gets asked of you.And then you say yes, and then you resent the hell out of it because you didn't really wanna do it, you're not particularly good at it. How did they have the gaul to even ask you to do such a thing when that's not something you've ever done before? And so like this whole story of what it meant when they asked you and the need for you to say yes is a lot in your own head.And if you just say, oh no, that that's not something I do, and the other person's like, okay, great, thanks. I'm gonna go ask the next person. Like imagine if that's all it took to like sort of relieve you of this stress of saying no. Like if, you know, some people are just gonna be like, oh, okay, thanks.[00:18:38] Rowan: Yeah.There are actually billions of people on the planet.[00:18:41] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:18:42] Rowan: So you don't have to be the one to say yes to everything. it's that simple and I wish I had always known it was that simple, right? Because I didn't, I really thought for some reason that if I didn't do certain things, the sky would fall.is that a tad narcissistic? Yeah, probably. And in retrospect, but really it just came down to. That is largely the message I received growing up, and I don't mean from my parents, I just mean in general. The message I received is you should be a kind person and what does a kind person do?Well, kind person helps others, so if you can help others, you should, so, I just took that. To mean I should always help others. And in my life I have also, I mean, I, I've written two books. I'm an author, I am a human rights activist. and I get asked to do a lot of free stuff.That was one of the first places that I learned. I had to set boundaries around, not because I don't wanna help everybody because I do want to help. Everybody I meet, I have a lot of empathy and my heart just breaks. I've been in really difficult situations myself, and when I see people struggling, it really hurts my heart.But I literally can't help everyone and I can't help every organization that comes to me without a budget because if I do that, I have no more room in my life to do anything else. And. The story that I told myself was, if I don't help this organization, I'm a bad person. If I don't help this person, I'm a bad person.But that's all coming from me. It's not coming from them. And once I realized that I am a good person, regardless, I'm a kind person regardless. then I realize that if somebody else, worst case scenario, I say no to somebody. They don't think I'm a kind person. I don't have to take that on.[00:20:45] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:20:45] Rowan: I do not have to take on somebody else's view of me.Also learned that on Twitter, by the way, because Wow. Do people have a lot of opinions about you who have never met you and have seen 300 words that you've posted in their entire life? But that's the thing. People form opinions. I don't have to take that on. I know who I am. So having a really good sense of self can help us learn to say no more effectively and more easily.[00:21:13] Lara: I'd love to use this particular example to talk about, like, how do you say no in a case like that, because I think part of this is. In terms of a boundary, knowing what your capacity is. So if for example, you really only have the capacity, the ability to take on one free speaking engagement per month, let's just use that as an example.It could be three per year. It could be. One per week, like whatever actually works for you, you're gonna set your own number. But let's say it's one per month and somebody comes and asks you to do something if you already know, the answer is, I would love to, but I only have the space to do one per month and I already have something this month.But please do get in touch with me next year. Or if you want me to put something in the calendar, you know, like you are able to then say it's not you. It's simply. The truth of the matter is, I already have as much as I can handle right now. I have one spot per month. I'm not saying, no, I hate you. You're terrible.I don't wanna help you. I'm explaining what's true and that makes it a little less like you are being a bad person.[00:22:23] Rowan: Yeah. We don't have to yell no. At people. You don't have to be like. No screw you. Like, I mean, or the equivalent. You know, I know that people say no is a full sentence and that is true.No is a full sentence, but we can wrap it in a nice bow and sometimes that, you know, we don't have to, but in particular situations it can be, the nice thing to do. It can be the kind thing to do. It can also be a way to. Create opportunities down the road to work together. So in that case, maybe I really like this organization.I love what they do. But yeah, my schedule's full. I cannot take on another freebie because I have to pay the bills. But we can now keep an open dialogue if I answer that way. And then if they need something, maybe they need something in a few months where I just do a quick Instagram reel or something and you know, I promote them that way Or maybe something comes up down the road and they're like, oh, we have a bit of budget this year and now we can pay you to come out and do this. That's great. Right. But I think that I could just say, no, sorry, I can't. But that would end the conversation there. I mean, yes, I can do that, absolutely.And in some situations that would be appropriate.[00:23:40] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:23:40] Rowan: But I do think that there is room for, I can't right now, maybe later.[00:23:47] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:23:47] Rowan: If that is true, I don't believe in saying that to just kind of push off saying no, because it's too uncomfortable to say no. So. If you don't really mean that, don't say it[00:23:59] Lara: a hundred percent agree.Yeah, because then you're just putting off this problem till later. You're gonna just have to keep dealing with it. And now you are not being particularly kind to that other person because they think you may want to do it. ,. Like there are certainly times right with, let me think about it, or, I might be able to do that later.Is leaving another person hanging. And so just like with, you know, when I say boundaries is good for everybody, if I say I'm not gonna be able to do that, then that person has the opportunity to find somebody else instead of dangling along this thing that you never have the intention of saying yes to.[00:24:36] Rowan: Exactly, exactly. And the other thing about boundaries is that they help us have a better relationship with other people because we're being more authentic. This is something I really, really wish I remembered the YouTube video that I got this from, but I was watching YouTube videos on boundaries way back when I was writing my last book, one Sunny Afternoon, and I have a chapter in it called Boundaries for Days because I was trying to explain how important boundaries are to mental health because they really, really are important.But one of the things that somebody had said, and it hit me like a ton of bricks, and I ended up writing about it in my book, was that when we are people pleasing, and I say this in the way of not setting boundaries, I'm just saying yes to everything and being super agreeable, we're not being authentic.We're not being authentic people because in that moment, I'm just doing this to make you happy. That's not really who I am, and if I wanna build a real relationship with you, if I want you to see me for who I am, not just see me for the person that I think that you want in your life or you want to work with or you want, whatever it might be.That is a very inauthentic thing. I'm not lying to you, but I'm certainly not showing you who I am.[00:26:02] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:26:02] Rowan: And I have really come to a place in my own life where I want everybody that I work with in any capacity. You, Lara, as well, right? To know that this is the person I am. This is the person you're recording a podcast with.This is the person you're friends with. This is. The real me as opposed to this is the me who records the podcast, however you wanna do it, when you wanna do it and just goes along with whatever it is that you want. Because that's not really me. That's just me trying to keep you around.That's not fair to me. And it's also not fair to you because at some point I'm going to hit my wall, I will get tired, I will get resentful, I will get whatever it is, and then. We're gonna have a problem. Right? Whereas if we're both really honest with each other and we talk about, like, this is how oftenI can record a podcast. These are the topics I wanna talk about. No, I don't really want to talk about that topic. I don't really have any interest in it, or I don't have a lot to say. If we're honest and authentic and we're able to comfortably say no to each other, we have a much better relationship and it flourishes.But if I'm constantly bending to you or you're constantly bending, to me, that is not a healthy relationship with long-term sustainability.[00:27:23] Lara: So that's kind of like between colleagues and like, that's a lot of setting expectation, being real, coming up with plans, following through being true to yourself. So then there's the other two dynamics, which is one, figuring out how to say no to a superior at work, for example. And the other one I see a lot is as small business owners not knowing how to say no to potential bad clients.so these are two situations where it feels a lot harder to say no than somebody you know pretty well and you feel like you're on equal footing with.[00:27:57] Rowan: Sure. Because there's a power dynamic there. There's a power imbalance. You have a superior, we all know where that power dynamic lies, where they have more power than you.And if it's a client, well, I mean, not necessarily that they have more power than you, but this is someone who's paying you money as well, right? So there is that as well. And they're also somebody who could say, leave you a bad review that could affect your business. I mean, there's all these different things and I think that is again, where we can wrap up a no in a kind way.In a way that isn't super blunt. Right. And I'm sure you have more advice on that, more suggestions than I do, because I've been very fortunate, I haven't worked with a lot of bad clients and I also haven't for a long time worked in, a nine to five job where I have had a superior. So I think you should just take this one.[00:28:56] Lara: Okay, so let's talk about dealing with, so a potential client. That's a really hard one because if somebody comes to you and wants to hire you, it feels like no matter what it is they want, you should want to say yes because they want to give you money. And that seems like a no-brainer, but it's not true.[00:29:15] Rowan: Yeah.[00:29:16] Lara: Not every client is a good client. Not every client is a good fit for you. Not every client is somebody who is actually gonna get the most out of working with you from your side of things. So a couple of examples where setting expectations can really help in those scenarios. One is, so a lot of the time what I do and what a lot of my clients do is they have like an intake form, right?So if you want to book a call, you are gonna fill out. A questionnaire that gives me a little bit of information about who you are. And what I like to do is make sure that those questions give them enough information to self-select out if it doesn't make sense, right? So if they think it's gonna cost 50 bucks and it's actually gonna cost a thousand bucks to work with you, you don't wanna get on a call and be like, sorry, no, it's a thousand dollars, not 50.And if you set the right expectations. When they come to book, a call, either the form or just the page, everybody knows a little bit more what to expect, and then they decide whether they wanna move forward based on that. So you don't actually have to say no if you've given people enough information to understand what's coming.[00:30:19] Rowan: That's great.[00:30:21] Lara: The same can be true with things like expectations of how quickly somebody's gonna get back to you. So if somebody expects that anytime they wanna talk to you, they can pick up the phone and they're gonna get to talk to you Immediately, but you have set the expectation that if they want to talk to you, they're gonna have to book a call online.That might be one thing. It could be that when you send an email, there is an autoresponder that comes right back immediately that says, thank you for your email. I have received it. I will get back to you within one to two business days. And so now the expectation isn't that they're sitting there being like, okay, within 10 minutes I should get a response.They know. That the expectation is one to two days. They don't have to call you and get mad at you and you have to say, no, that's not how it works. You've told them ahead of time the expectation is set, and that can really help people because if they think they're supposed to get a response within an hour and they don't get one for two days, then they're going to be mad.If they know two days is the expectation. Maybe they wanna ask for an exception and then they can go ahead and ask for an exception. Then they know they're asking for an exception. They don't assume that was what was supposed to happen in the first place. Setting expectations and laying it out there, It isn't even about setting a boundary. It really is just saying like, this is how it works. We've spent time thinking about it. This is what we have the ability to do. And then it takes so much of the tension out of these things that could pop up. And not only does it set the right expectations, but if somebody tries to do something different, you can refer back to the thing you clearly said to them in the first place.[00:31:58] Rowan: It is very much like just setting expectations is kind of like setting these nice little parameters. Even if you don't wanna call them boundaries, you can call 'em nice little parameters around the relationship. Sometimes we forget that. Every interaction we have with other human beings is in itself a relationship.If you're gonna be interacting more than once, , if it's a client, if it is, a boss, if it is, a friend, whoever it is, like these are all relationships. And so setting those parameters around business relationships, that is a wonderful way to start things. It also just relaxes them as well, I think.Right. So it's like, I know for example, when I have had a therapist and my therapist when we meet for the first time, tells me everything about cancellation policies and confidentiality and , whatever it might be. Like all these, you know is it appropriate to email? Is it appropriate to text?. I know exactly what it is right away that I'm getting into. And then I can go, okay, now I know where the line is. And we can build that relationship around that. that's such a healthy way to do things[00:33:12] Lara: as a coach, and a lot of other business owners, when I've laid it out like that, if they want more, I can potentially say, well.Maybe it's time for us to move to the package where you have this access to me. Maybe it's time for us to do this thing where we get it done faster, but it costs a bit more money. Right? Because you have what the original expectation is, and if you're saying, I, hear you want something different, I understand and you have the capacity to do it.Again, I'm not saying. do it anyway. But if you actually do have, you know, a different package, if you do have a different level, if you do have something like, well, I can get this done faster, but it does have a little bit of an additional cost, it's all laid out for you to refer to. You're not making any of this up on the spot you've thought it through, and you can refer to different things for different reasons.[00:34:02] Rowan: Yeah, I mean, you see that with personal trainers, for example, where they're like, okay, if you just want a nutrition plan and, I just meet you at the gym once and get you started, it's this much. But if you want me to meet you at the gym three times a week and write you out a meal plan that isn't just, you know, the nutrients you should eat every day, now we're moving into this like I can do it.But it's going to cost you more because it's more of my time and energy. And being presented with these different options is wonderful. It's wonderful. And again, you set those expectations right from the start, and if somebody starts to expect more than what you've agreed upon, it is much easier to say no to that because you've already established what those boundaries are.[00:34:50] Lara: So let's talk about now with your superior or your boss, which admittedly I haven't worked in a regular setting with a boss for like almost 20 years. But, I do know that part of it again, is talking to people in terms of what is going to work best for you, right? If you want the best work on this project from me, right?If you want me to do a really good job. It's going to take this for me if you also ask me to do this, either both are gonna be a little bit less good or you need to change some deadlines or something. And I understand again, we come back to this whole situation sometimes you like you don't have a choice, you have to keep working in a place where the demands are unreasonable.And I understand like that sucks. if you can start to ask for things in a way that feels like it's benefiting the employer too, that can be one way to go about things. Just clearly explaining. I'm not trying to be, again, contrary or I don't want to, but it's like this is why. This is what's gonna work best.This is what I believe and. How can we work together to figure out the best solution,[00:36:05] Rowan: right? And, and also being able to say things like, I want to give you the best of what I can give you, but if you put me on too many projects, I'm not going to be able to do that. and if it is really important that I'm on these three projects.Okay. But just know I'm only one person and I'm only going to be able to give so much to any one project, you know, so if you put me on three, you're going to get a third of me on each. and I think thatSetting those expectations really early can be great too with a boss and let them know, like, you know, I work best when I work on one thing, or I work best when I get to spread my time amongst a lot of things so I don't get bored.[00:36:49] Rowan: but when it comes to, you know,your boss then pulling you in and saying, okay, now,I want you to work on these two extra things. You can say, okay, so you may remember that when I first started working here, that I work best when I work on one thing. is there a way that we can limit how much I'm working on these two other things if I have to work on them?there are definitely sometimes no is no, and sometimes no has to be, you know, Somewhere in the middle perhaps. Does that make sense?[00:37:20] Lara: Yeah. And I will say this, many, many, many of my clients are people who eventually said, I need to leave this workplace and open a business of my own so that I can change how things are happening.Because hustle, culture and toxic workplaces are a thing, unreasonable expectations. Are a thing. Wanting to do things differently is also a thing, and it's not for everybody, but there are people who are either starting their own business and doing things differently, or people who have started businesses that other people can go work for that are doing things differently and some of what.I hope comes from the conversations we have in this podcast is people thinking about things differently and knowing that overall some things do need to change. The status quo is not working in a lot of ways, and we want to talk about the ways that overall some things can change.[00:38:19] Rowan: It is one of those things where I'm going to come back to, uh,class solidarity for a moment.class solidarity is something that I have been thinking of a lot lately, but it comes down to this.We are being expected to do a lot more with less these days. And if all of us collectively. Decide that we're going to say no to that things will change because the people at the top, whoever those people are, and you can take that any way you'd like. But there are people who operate at a very different class than most of us, and they make a lot of these rules.They set a lot of these expectations, but they are very, very few. Compared to the rest of us. So if we, and I've seen actually younger millennials and Gen Z have been setting much stronger boundaries around their time and they're like, no, I will not be working after five. No, I will not be taking on more than I can handle.Yeah, I would actually rather earn a little less and go work for this smaller company or start my own business because I don't wanna deal with that because I watched my parents burnout. I watched their marriage fall apart. I watched my dad be on antidepressants for 20 years because he couldn't handle his job.It was killing him every day. Right. they've watched the older generation that's us and older do that. And they don't want it anymore. So I think right now is a really good time for us all to really consider what our boundaries are, what we want to say yes to, and what we need to say yes to, and what we can say no to.Because if we do that collectively we will change things.[00:40:06] Lara: Absolutely. We're gonna change the conversation. These younger millennials, gen Z, They're causing angst for some people who are like, I don't understand. I don't understand why they're not doing this, why they're not doing that. But I don't disagree with what they've decided to do.And as a result, there are some things that are having to change from how they used to be. And so I completely agree with you when more people are doing one thing than not. People are gonna have to adjust. And so I hope conversations like this do first of all, help people feel a little bit better about the ways you can say no, but also remind people that we are entitled to say no to things that are bad for us.[00:40:51] Rowan: Including school field trips, because let me tell you, taking a bunch of kids to the Museum of Civilization and two of them running off giggling to play hide and seek is not fun. So really think about that. That's my advice.[00:41:06] Lara: I completely agree, and that is why I never did them.Thank you everybody for joining us today. Please come and visit our substack. Tell us if there are places that you struggle saying no. Tell us if there are ways that you've said no, that were easier than you expected them to be. If you have scripts that work, we wanna hear all of it because I think this conversation can continuing.It's really important for people.[00:41:32] Rowan: Absolutely. And I'm just going to plug it, if you have. Five seconds in your day and you like this podcast, can you go and rate it? 'cause we are brand new baby podcasters and we would love to get some feedback. Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

In a world where we revere how impressive people are for doing things “all on their own” no wonder we struggle with asking for help. This week we talk about why it’s hard to ask for help, how we can start to get more comfortable asking for help, and a little bit about how we just like each other.Things we referencedJenny Mitchell’s book - Embracing AmbitionOur episode on people pleasingTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: I'm making myself very vulnerable, and when I make myself very vulnerable, I'm opening myself up to criticism. And I think that is a big reason why people don't ask for help. Welcome to this episode of Unboxing It. I am Rowan.And I'm Lara.And today we are going to talk about a thing that I think is gonna make some people feel called out learning to ask for help.[00:00:51] Lara: Although I will say sounds like from some of the feedback that we've gotten from the podcast so far, potentially most of our episodes are making people feel called out.[00:01:01] Rowan: Yeah. That there's a lot of people who are like, I am like uncomfortable at how much I feel called out by this, but also thank you. At the same time. So I feel like all these societal messages that we are talking about really are in fact societal messages that are crossing generational gaps. and various other demographics.[00:01:25] Lara: Yeah. It's time to talk about them more. And so that's why we're just gonna keep unboxing all these things.[00:01:32] Rowan: That was really good. That was some good marketing there. Just bringing that segue back into the name of the podcast. That's why we have you here, Ms Wellman. So yeah, so today is, this is actually not as hard for me as I think it is for a lot of people, but I'm gonna tell you a bit of a backstory to explain why so.I wasn't necessarily raised to ask for help. We're Gen X kids, the two of us, and gen X kids were largely told to fend for themselves. Like it was really that whole stereotype of you know, being kicked out in the morning, in the summer and like, go find something to do. Running around with your friends, whatever it is you're doing all day and like coming home when the street lamps come on.Like that. That was my childhood. I, I don't know about you, Lara , but[00:02:22] Lara: yeah, I mean, I think I had a little bit more of an overprotective mom, but like compared to what that means now.[00:02:28] Rowan: Like that[00:02:29] Lara: is not, that is not what that meant then[00:02:31] Rowan: like Gen X overprotective. Yeah. It's very[00:02:35] Lara: different[00:02:35] Rowan: my mom used to be like you can go to the park, but you can't go alone. You have to go with a friend. And that was weird because most of my friends would just be going to the park on the road like that. Yeah. So, yes, I'm with you on that. I did sometimes have a check-in once or twice during the day, but really I learned that if there was a problem, I.I had to deal with it on my own. That takes me to the tender age of 14, and at 14 years old, I sat down with my parents after getting into a lot of trouble, getting kicked outta school running away from home, a whole bunch you know, and just being in a really bad place. And I said, I'm having a hard time.I can't stop drinking every time I'm stressed. I drink every time. I'm sad, I drink. And I don't know what to do about it. And to make a long story short, my mom got on the phone with anybody who would listen. She called everywhere. She talked to everybody, and finally somebody said, yes, we can get your child into a rehab center.So I went to a live-in rehab center for six months. That changed my perspective on asking for help because I did ask for help. I received the help and that help ultimately saved my life. I, I learned that I didn't have to go at it alone. And even in the rest of my life where I've run into tricky situations, I've been able to tap into the resources that are available and ask for that help.But that is me and that is a rare find. I have found.[00:04:14] Lara: Yeah. I think that there are some people who never want to ask for help. There are some people who will ask for help, like around certain categories of things, but other ones they won't. Right? Like there's certain ways that we feel about what it means about us to ask for help, and I think that's why most people don't wanna ask for help.It's not 'cause they're trying to not be a burden. It's because they're worried that by asking for help. That is going to say something about who they are.[00:04:43] Rowan: My partner went on stress leave a little while ago, and I remember even in that situation her feeling worried that going on stress leave, asking her doctor for help asking for that time off from her employer would put her in a situation where she might be viewed as less trustworthy.Less reliable, right? She would be seen perhaps as a burden, and if they were to do some layoffs, she might end up at the top of the list. So what do you do when you are dealing with something and you're afraid that asking for help might make it worse? It's tricky, right? Because there are going to be some people who think that.[00:05:31] Lara: And there are some people who aren't going to think that. Like I think that this is that whole, like there's no one size fits all. Like, oh, don't worry about it. Like I think there is some nuance here, right? Like we need to really think about who we're talking to and understand it a bit. At the same time, asking for help and feeling like that means.That maybe we're weak or that we are incapable, or that we don't know as much as we're supposed to know, like all of that kind of stuff. If we reframe what that means into it being like, I am trying to do something better for everybody, right? Like the idea that we have to do everything alone makes no sense to me, but.It's so societally praised.[00:06:18] Rowan: Yeah, it's seen as, a strength somehow. And it's funny because we are communal animals like we are meant to be in groups, work in groups universally this is true. And everybody of course likes their alone time to some extent, some of us more than others, but. We function as a society because it is imperative we do.So then why do we talk about, this idea that people are lonelier than ever. This idea that people feel more isolated than ever and that we all should come together and, spend more time do more and share more. , And then at the same time say, oh, but also if you have a problem.It's a good idea to just deal with it on your own because that's what strong people do. And can I say, I'm just gonna say this I've noticed this more in male culture than I have anywhere else. I don't know if you find that as well, but I will say as a trans guy moving from largely female dominated.Spaces to now sort of tiptoeing into male dominated spaces, the male dominated spaces, there is a lot more of that toxic belief that you should just go it alone on everything.[00:07:36] Lara: Which is so terrible because do you know how bad it is for all the women I've been talking to? Like to think it's even worse?It's very disheartening. I totally believe you. It totally makes sense. I haven't witnessed a lot, but like, ah, like it's so frustrating to me that we're all trying to do things alone when we don't need to. And I mean, you're right, we are communal. Beings, I think, you know, they say, they say again, this is when everybody's gonna learn.I like to say I've heard things, but I can't tell you who I heard it from or whether it's true. But that, you know, living communally was like for parenting for example. Like the fact that people are trying to raise kids without any support system truly is harder. Than other ways of raising kids. Like it is absolutely easier to have a community of people who are looking out for your kids as you're raising them.But our whole society has become, well, north American society is all about just you and Like many of the things that we talk about, I'm sure that I believe capitalism is hugely to blame because it's all about competition. How can you be the best? How can you prove to everybody that you are at the top?And if it's all about you being at the top and not some kind of communal wellbeing, then that means we can't bring in the other people.[00:09:04] Rowan: Yeah, we operate in silos for sure. it is a lot about getting what's mine and unfortunately getting what's yours can come at a big price because it can land us into situations where you know, there's, I wanna go back 'cause I think there's like this expectation of success as well that plays into this.So we hear a lot of talk about, , well. At your age, you should have a family, and then you should have a home, and you should have a job, and you should have a car. I'm just throwing some stuff out here. It's different for everybody. But these are sort of common beliefs. Like at my age, for example, I should have a home.My home should be paid off. 'cause I'm nearing 50 now. And, all my children should be growing up and going to university and, you know, I should be probably at the highest high of my career at my age, right? There shouldn't be too much further up. I can go, I should be there and making a good amount of money, and I should be able to pay all of my bills.And I should be happy. I should be happy because I have made it. That's making it. And I should be with a partner and be in love, and I mean, I can just go on and on and on. And what if one or more of those things is not true, that then can be seen as failure? I'm failing in some areas and I'm going to look bad to other people.They're going to view me differently. And then I'm not going to necessarily tell somebody if, say, my relationship is falling apart or if one of my kids is struggling really hard in school or with mental health, or if my own mental health is not in a good place, or if I don't really make that much money and I'm way behind on my bills.And the minute that I start telling people about that, which can be the gateway to asking for more help and support. I'm making myself very vulnerable, and when I make myself very vulnerable, I'm opening myself up to criticism. And I think that is a big reason why people don't ask for help.[00:11:10] Lara: Absolutely. if you think about that, right, like so if it's at work, and I know that there are a lot of people who really struggle to ask for help at work.They want to try. To prove to the people that hired them that they're very capable and therefore asking for help might make it seem like they are not very capable. And these are the, like, how do we change the conversation so you're not coming up to people and saying like, Hey Rowan, I'm really bad at the thing you wanted me to do and hired me to do so.Can you help me be good at it? Like that is not. How, if you think about it, of course, if you think that way, you're gonna feel like it's a very bad idea to do that. But if you think instead that it's something like, I know you're really knowledgeable about a thing, I can't be knowledgeable about everything until I've.ever, but I'm not always knowledgeable about something until I've done it and I am much better off to ask you to help me figure it out. It might take five or 10 minutes than for me to spend two days trying to figure it out on my own. That is actually not better for anybody. So if you think about it as.Like gaming the system. I don't know what, kind of hack you can do it, but like if you flip it so that when you think asking for help isn't a bad thing, like it's not something that's like uncovering your weaknesses, but it's something that lets you be the best that you could be or that you want to be.It just takes away so much of the angst that comes from asking for help.[00:12:47] Rowan: Yeah, it's empowering It's actually, I think one of the things that has come with age for me is this confidence in not having all the answers and. If I don't have all the answers, because, hey, I'm human, and I, like you said, I can't possibly know everything as you know, brilliant as I am.[00:13:09] Lara: I know I do know a lot though.[00:13:13] Rowan: I mean, I do know a lot, but I think like it then becomes an act of empowerment for me to seek out that information. Rather than a weakness for me to seek out that information. But it does require vulnerability, and I'm gonna go back to that again because, Ooh, humans, we do not like to be vulnerable.No, we do not like it. Because it's like opening yourself up and then giving power over to whoever you're opening yourself up to. To support you in that and not criticize and harm you for it.[00:13:50] Lara: Yeah, and I think in a lot of ways we are taught to expect people to try to attack us if given the chance to try to overpower us or to.Push us down. Like there's certainly a lot of messages in the world that tell us people are not gonna be nice if we give them the opportunity to not be nice.[00:14:11] Rowan: Yeah. I think the internet has shown us that for sure. Which I think leads me to a, a piece of advice or a suggestion that I would make, which is if you're feeling particularly vulnerable about asking for help.Be careful where you ask for help. If you're just asking a standard question and you know, you want to hit as many people as possible for that answer, then asking online is a great idea. Sometimes for more sensitive stuff, especially if this is not your forte, going to the internet first might be a bad idea, but there.Are certainly some people in most of our lives that we can feel safer with, and I think those are the people that it would, serve us best to go to them first.[00:14:55] Lara: Yeah, know who your safe people are. There's a concept that my friend Jenny Mitchell wrote about in her book, which is.Having like your own personal board of directors, like who are the people that you think of as the people you go to when you need to solve a problem, when you need to figure out what's going to come next. So that's probably for like bigger life decisions, but it's still good to know like who are your people?Like spending some time thinking about that is a good idea. Understanding who can help you with what, when, and why, if you don't have anybody that you trust, maybe it's time to go looking for some new people too.[00:15:34] Rowan: Yeah, I think sometimes these lessons of, you ask somebody like, why don't you ask for help on that?And they'll say, I'm tired of relying on people. I just get burned, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, that's an old wound. That's a trauma, if you will, and. We learned those things early on. As someone with childhood trauma, with a childhood trauma disorder, I have complex PTSD. It can be harder for someone like me to trust because I was taught not to trust from a very young age, and I have had to learn where to safely trust people.So I. for example, not all the doctors that I've met are doctors that I would go to for a problem. Mm-hmm. But I really like my family doctor. I trust him a lot. And I feel like I can tell him just about anything and he's going to help me solve the problem. Right. So it is a question of surrounding yourself with as many people as you can, who you know you can rely on.I also think that vulnerability is almost a muscle that we have to exercise, if you're not used to being vulnerable and asking for help, I think putting out the really big thing can be daunting. Too. Daunting, and you might not do it. You can start small. Just small little things. Maybe you need help.Declutter in your bedroom and maybe your sister might be someone to ask to help you with that, right? Like you start with these small things maybe. And I mean, for someone else to be like, well, yeah, of course I'd ask for help with that, but hear me out. Like, not everybody is there. Not everybody is used to asking for help.For something like that, that might seem shameful. Like, I don't want someone to see my messy bedroom, but if you really need help, you know, find those little tiny. Things to get help with and build up from there.[00:17:34] Lara: Yeah, and I did have an instance where I invited some friends to help me declutter, and that shame was the biggest thing that made it difficult because you're like, why can't I do this by myself?Like, I should be able to do this by myself. How did it get this messy, like, right, but. In an instant. The two friends I asked to help me with it were like, yes. Came, helped me get so much of it done. And then I was just talking to one of them again. I was like, I might need that kind of help again.And here's the other thing is I'm like, but I'm gonna put a boundary on it, which is, you can't, ask me to get rid of everything unless it was my idea to get rid of it. Like, we're gonna sort it, we're gonna organize it. But if you are gonna ask me to get rid of stuff, I can't do it right now.Right? Like right now, , my feelings around my stuff has to come from me. And if you keep asking me to, I'm not gonna cope. So I put a boundary around it and she said, okay, I will not ask you to get rid of stuff only if you want to. And it's amazing. People are like, okay, right. Like when you ask for help, there's so many people.Who want to help. And I think the flip side and how you feel about helping people is a good reminder, but we don't think about that a lot. Right. So do you like helping people? Right. Like if somebody that I love needs help and I can help them, even somebody that I just know, right? Like, I mean, I guess that's part of the reason I'm a coach because that is part of what I really like doing.But I really like to help people. So why don't I wanna let other people have the opportunity to help me? It's when you think not asking for help is selfish. We're gonna just flip it around. It's selfish not to ask for help. No. You are denying your loved ones the opportunity to do something that feels good for them.[00:19:25] Rowan: It's true. First of all, if we still lived in the same city. I would be your decluttering bestie because I love decluttering Big L, big L love it is one of my favorite things to do to the point where if I wasn't doing the stuff that I'm doing now, that would be my business. I would go into people's homes and I would just work magic.Because, we're all good at something. So if you were to ask me to come help you, I would have a great time. I would get something out of it, not just because I love decluttering, but also because. I care about you and it would make me feel really good. You've helped me in the past.Now I get to help you. That reciprocity, Ooh, that that I had to pull that one outta my brain. I was like, what is the word Rowan used the word. after we've done this episode, I'm gonna go Google the word and make sure that I both used the right one and used it correctly.[00:20:21] Lara: I believe you did[00:20:23] Rowan: HRT. I'm just gonna put it out there. As an aside, testosterone made me a little less smart than I used to be. That's the truth. That's the truth. But I'm hoping that my charm makes up for it, because the confidence that I have in myself as a man is through the roof, because of course it is.[00:20:44] Lara: Of course it is.[00:20:45] Rowan: Of course. It's so, it kind of makes up for it Anyway. I digress. I also think that vulnerability in asking for help, vulnerability in any way, sharing a story like I did, I opened up with a story with this and I told everyone I went to rehab at 14 years old. That's not a thing that most people are just gonna share right at the start.That could be considered oversharing in some circles, but on a podcast, I felt like it was appropriate. Also, I've written about it twice in books, but, I made myself vulnerable and what I hope that does every time I do it and every time I do ask for help, then I am making it okay for everyone else in proximity to me.I. that, for them to do the same thing, right? If I'm being vulnerable with you, I've just shared something very personal, you now can share something very personal with me. If I am asking for help and showing that that's okay, I sincerely hope that you now know it is okay to do the same. So I think the way to break this cycle in society in general is for more of us to just do it.Just be honest. Be honest where we're at. It goes right down to, I mean, yougo to the grocery store. Hi. How are you today? Good. And yourself? Good, thanks. We don't mean it, nobody means it. We, we, we just say it and that's okay. 'cause like we're not gonna have a big you know, emotional sesh with the cashier.They have five people behind you they need to see. So like, that's okay. But it really does speak to this idea that everyone's supposed to be okay in polite society all the time. And if you're not, that's weird. And I really do think that that is directly related to our inability to ask for help sometimes.[00:22:37] Lara: Yes, I agree. And I think there's so many layers to it, right? Like I think I'm thinking about so many of them to the point that I think. Generations older than us also are just supposed to be agreeable. I feel like that's more a thing in generations older than us. So like they're they, whatever it is, I don't need help.I'm okay. I don't wanna bother you. I feel like that can be a reason that we don't ask for help. I think talking about all of this stuff makes a huge difference. I've talked a lot about my A DHD and. I think that being honest with people that like I'm not always good at following up on things, so if I drop a ball, just tell me.And then other people are like astonished that I'll just say, I might forget, but I'm like, but it's true and I don't need to be perfect. And that's a whole other topic. I don't need to be perfect, but we talked about perfectionism before, but the fear of failure is a whole other topic we could dig into sometime.And then there's one last thing that I was thinking as we were talking, which is something that I struggle with sometimes. Maybe I know I need help, but I don't know what that help is. And if I don't know what I need to ask for, I think I need to figure it out before I can ask for it. And that's where.People don't like, they're like, I don't know what I need. How am I supposed to ask for help? I don't understand what isn't working. I don't understand that I need help even maybe, right? Like I'm just like I don't know.[00:24:06] Rowan: yeah, yeah. 'cause it can get all muddled sometimes, but that's where talking it out with somebody can really help.That's where, having a good friend can really help too. Just go, how are you feeling today? Not great actually. What's going on? I don't know. I don't know. But something's not right and I don't really know what I need right now. It's also okay to not know what you need.[00:24:28] Lara: It is,and I've realized that I am more of a verbal processor than I thought.My therapist and I were talking about this recently where I like, I can't be the kind of person who just says I know something's up. I need to make an appointment because I won't do it. But if we have a regular session where I'm just gonna talk, that's how I figure out what's wrong.[00:24:54] Rowan: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I actually think that's gonna be more helpful for people than you might even realize having just said that because.I'm like that too. And I did not realize that until you said it. I'm like, why do I always talk about my feelings? Like I? am forever. I'm, the talk about your feelings guy. I am like probably. The guy that a lot of girls say that they want, but like 20% more than that. Like a little, not that much. A little, yeah, exactly.Hold back there, Rowan. We also wanna watch TV together without having to talk about feelings all the time. But, that is a thing for me where sometimes I just need to go ugh, and just like get it all out. And in that I kinda look at what it is that I just. Spewed out into the world and I go, oh, there it is.Right there, there. That's the thing that's actually bothering me. That's what I need help with. So see you help me with your vulnerability and now you can help others.[00:25:59] Lara: See, this is what this is all about. This is what I love because I like helping people.[00:26:05] Rowan: I know it's a nice trait.One of the other things I was thinking is that this also falls into people pleasing. I don't think we touched on that yet, but I really wanna say it because as a recovering people pleaser who still has the odd slip up. That's where I get stuck in asking for help sometimes where I don't wanna burden the other people around me.Like I have this chronic lower back issue right now. It's driving me crazy. And I was telling you earlier, I wear a chest binder because I'm a trans guy and I'm waiting for top surgery. And when I go out and during the day, I tend to wear a binder to kind of squish everything down. And the.Thing that's starting to happen after over a year of doing this is my lower back is really starting to hurt me, and I have found that I'm hesitant to ask for help because in my mind I should be able to do the yard work. I should be able to unload the dishwasher. I should be, you know, and like, why would I ask somebody else who just worked all day, or why would I ask this person who like I, you know, it's like we all have lives, we all have problems.I can manage it. And that's me trying to people please, right? I want to make everyone else around me happy. I wanna put everybody else ahead of me. All of them. Their problems are bigger, their lives are busier, and therefore I should just do it. And. My partner actually sat me down and was like, you need to stop doing this.Like it is actually driving me crazy that you are not asking for help in this regard. Like, I know you're sore. I can do it. I'm not sore and you're still not asking me. I'm like, well, I don't wanna be, oh, you're gonna love this term. Lazy,[00:27:53] Lara: uh,[00:27:54] Rowan: Uhhuh, Uhhuh. I don't wanna be lazy because the idea of me sitting down while she does that makes me feel terrible, but does it make her feel terrible?She wants to help me. So yeah, people pleasing can definitely play a big role in this.[00:28:09] Lara: And so I totally get that because even though I don't think lazy is a thing, if my husband starts cleaning while I'm watching tv, I. It feels, and I know for a fact that it's not what he's trying to say to me. It feels like I am not being a good partner if I let him.Tidy up while I'm watching tv. Right. Like now. Now you're doing more than me. Now I feel bad that you're doing that. And I didn't do that before because I could have done it before I was just sitting here. Right. Like all of it comes up in like this, like it's totally inside me.[00:28:46] Rowan: Yep.[00:28:47] Lara: But like that's, that's the thing, the judgment, it doesn't just come from other people, like internalized a million different things. It's true, right? Like I judge myself more than I think anybody else does, and when I slowly learn to catch myself in it and be like, that's not what I should believe, then I can start to change it.Like knowing something is the first step[00:29:15] Rowan: true. That's right. Yeah. Recognizing where it's coming from. And a lot of times this is just internal messaging. We are just, we just have these little, well, we use tapes. I've noticed that like, it's like a tape just playing around. You tell that to somebody who's, you know,Gen Z and they sort of look at you like, what do you mean a tape? That's just, but it's true. It's just like, it's just on repeat, right? It's this message over, and I have the exact same one, by the way, the idea of someone cleaning while I'm resting. Wow. No, no, can't do that. That would make me a terrible person.So, yeah, totally hear you on that. What do you think is the thing that you have the hardest time asking for help with?[00:30:02] Lara: That's a good question. Again, I think part of it is not even thinking to ask for help. Like I do think one of my biggest things isn't even allowing myself to think I should need help, let alone I.Asking for it. I do ask for help in some things, but others, so what do I not feel comfortable asking for help with?I think it's things that might make it seem like I'm incapable, that I'm not, for example, holding my weight, that I'm not, you know, able to adult by myself, that I'm not a capable person. In all that it's meant to be to whatever I've defined. I guess it's not even a societal, like whatever I've decided makes me a capable person.If suddenly, like if I need help with something, like can you help me make dinner? No big deal. If I need help with, I don't know. Let's say I needed to ask somebody for money that would make me feel really, really vulnerable and uncomfortable if I had to tell somebody that I wasn't able to take care of something for my children by myself.Like it's all that kind of stuff, right? Like, what are people gonna say or think or me? What am I gonna think if I need help with something that I think adults should be able to do without help?[00:31:13] Rowan: Yeah. I mean, I think that's really. Pretty common, right? Yeah. This, because again, it goes back to those societal expectations of where you are supposed to be at this time in your life.[00:31:25] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:31:26] Rowan: And some of that is you know, what you've come to believe and some of that is what you've been told from the get go. Right. My big thing that I've started asking for help with more recently, it's not the lower back thing actually. That I was really embarrassed about for a very long time.I have a on again, off again, health anxiety. So people might know it there's a lot of different names for health anxiety disorders. One of them being the older term of hypochondria, right? Always thinking there's something wrong. So for me it will be, I have some kind of.Probably very benign symptom. And in my mind it just jumps to absolute worst case scenario, like headache is a brain tumor, or gas is some kind of colon cancer. Like, you know, this is what happens and. I understand logically that that is ridiculous, right? That like, that is the least likely thing that whatever is going on is, and that, you know, it's not persistent enough for whatever, that I should go seek help for it.This is like this just came up, in the last two or three days or something, right? And I used to be really quiet about it because I was so ashamed. Because it is kind of laughable when you say it out loud, right. But it, it's a real disorder and it's something that I have tools to deal with, but when I get really, really stressed out in other areas of my life, I have a lot of other things going on.My brain tries to find something to hyper focus on, and that's what it will focus on. And what I've started doing, which has been very hard, is I have a very. Small, trusted group of people that I can say, so anyway, this thing is happening in my body and what I'm telling myself is this, and I know it's not that, but I just need to say it out loud.Mm-hmm. And get you to also tell me that it's not that. And, you know, we might have a little laugh about it, but it's a gentle laugh. It's not a judgmental laugh. Right. it's like shining a big spotlight on the monster and making it run away. And that helps me long term.'cause it helps me kind of go, yep, you know what? Now my brain understands that it's more likely this, then I'm good. But when I didn't do that and my other tools didn't work. I could obsess on things for hours or days or even weeks, that honestly were not a big deal. So that's where asking for help, even with the really hard stuff can be really beneficial.And that's where building your circle of trust to be able to do that can make a difference.[00:34:12] Lara: And that's where the practicing. Makes it easier because, you know, while that sounds like this huge thing to ask for, it probably is the first time, but by the time you've done it 20 times or you know, every time you're like a little worried, like, the thing I might say is the story I'm telling myself right now is this, this terrible, terrible, terrible.Right,[00:34:34] Rowan: right.[00:34:35] Lara: But if you've set it up in a place where in your life it's normal. To just say, I am verbalizing this. I need your feedback. One for me is that I need people to watch me lock the front door and then jiggle it to prove that it's locked.Mm-hmm.And I don't say, okay, watch me do this, I will drive away and then have to come back because I'm not sure I did it.[00:34:59] Rowan: Yep.[00:34:59] Lara: So it's just standard now. So many people, my friends, my family, know. I'll be like, I locked it. And they'll be like, you locked it, and then that's it. That's all it took, right? But like the first time you'd be like, I don't know why I need to ask people to do this for me. Like, it feels silly, but now it's just normal.So when you find the little things, I think this is true across the board, the little things that we can do to make life easier are worth doing.[00:35:23] Rowan: Yeah. That's what it is. I really hope that this episode is a way for people to see that they are no more broken, if you will, than anyone else, right?We all have our things we need help with. And I,use the term broken because that's the story we often tell ourselves, I'm so dysfunctional, I am so broken. I need so much help. And when we all get more vulnerable, we all get more honest with each other. You start to see that, hey, that isn't actually the case.there's this idea sometimes when I meet people, when I do book signings or whatever, and they'll say, you know, your life just seems so perfect. So put together. I'm like, well, first of all, you need to read my books a little more closely. But also that's what everyone's life often looks like from the outside.Not everybody. Mm-hmm. But most of us have a really, we have a skillset that allows us to go out into the world and put our best foot forward. And what we're showing there isn't the whole story. The whole story is that we all have issues and we all need somebody else from time to time. And I really, really wanna drive that home that if you are listening right now and you are struggling with something, you are absolutely not alone in struggling with something and that your something is not.Way worse than other people's. Some things it probably seems that way. Just like every time that I have some health anxiety scare, I'm convinced that I am so broken and so weird, and so, you know that nobody's going to, how could anybody listen to me and support me and love me through it? And yet that's what happens every time.So it's okay. To not be okay. And it is okay to ask for help.[00:37:23] Lara: And even if that help is to have somebody help you figure out what you need help with, right? Like it's okay to just be uncertain. It's okay to not be positively confident about everything. And the more we can let ourselves figure that stuff out, the better we are.And I think that that's why. Podcasts like this. I know it's true in a lot of , the stuff that I share, the reason like people like it so much is because nobody realizes that. Most people think that they think they're the only one in this little bubble feeling terrible and not being good at something.And when we're all like, Hey, do you realize most people feel that way? They're like, what? No. Normalizing talking about this stuff I think is really important.[00:38:11] Rowan: Let's all be broken together. No, that's not what I want to end with. Nope, that's not it. No.[00:38:18] Lara: I think let's all believe that asking for help and asking for what we need, because sometimes it doesn't feel like help.Right? Like I don't know that somebody. Double checking. I lock the doors help so much as just asking for what we need and knowing that we deserve to get the things that we need, like that is worth figuring out how to do and not shying away from.[00:38:43] Rowan: See, that's why I don't do this podcast alone.You are the wise woman on the hill and I am very grateful to hike on up there and hang out with you for a few minutes once a week. I really am. Wow, .[00:39:00] Lara: Thank you for doing this with me too. I feel like a lot of gratitude in this moment actually, that we get to do this.[00:39:07] Rowan: I know, right?Mm-hmm. I know. Me too. Me too. It's again, a testament of how doing things together can have the best outcomes. And that is it for this week's episode of Unboxing It.Thank you so much for joining us. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Will you look at that? Someone likes us enough to be on our podcast!Unboxing It had the pleasure of welcoming its first guest to the show: Misty Pratt, health communicator and author of the book All In Her Head: How Gender Bias Harms Women’s Mental Health. Because if there’s one thing we know about society, it’s that women are often told to take a seat. This is also true in healthcare.Misty talks to Rowan and Lara about how gender bias—*cough* the patriarchy *cough*—has led to poorer health outcomes for women throughout history, and how this trend continues today. Are women being taken seriously when they visit the doctor? Are their concerns being dismissed? Is everything being blamed on hormonal shifts when there can be other underlying issues at play?Tune in as Misty goes through the findings she hopes will help women receive better care and yeet the patriarchy into the sea.Misty’s SubstackMisty’s Website (check out her book!) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Unboxing It, we take a swing at the capitalist idea that rest is bad. Evil. The worst. And we’re terrible for giving in to it.How did we go from scheduled nap times in kindergarten (yeah, we miss those too) to believing we’ll never be successful—whatever that means—without two jobs, a side hustle, and a strict morning routine? Society teaches us all that productivity is king, and pushes us to keep going well beyond healthy limits.And even when we do manage to rest (which is getting harder to do with the rising cost of living), there’s that little voice inside that tells us how lazy we are for doing so.Today, Lara and Rowan take on the productivity monster and come up with strategies on how to tame it. Which is good because Rowan could use some help in that area.Referenced during the show:Lara’s book: You’re Not LazyThis Tiktok From Tara DifrancisoTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: I'm having a bit of a realization myself as I say this, but don't see what purpose it serves to be hard on ourselves when we don't have the energy.[00:00:31] Lara: Welcome to another episode of Unboxing It. Today we are gonna talk about one of my very favorite topics, and it's, a saying that I almost have coined as my own. I made stickers with it. Like I really love it because I think it's so important and it is resting isn't lazy.[00:00:50] Rowan: Oh, I hate this.[00:00:52] Lara: I love it.I love talking about this. I can't wait to dig into it with you. I can't wait to hear what other people take away from this and how they feel about it, but it's really just something that I think is so important to remind people. Resting isn't lazy.[00:01:11] Rowan: I completely agree with you, but by the way, for the record, when I say I hate this, I don't mean that I disagree.I mean that I feel entirely called out in it. So we're coming from this from two different angles, and I think that's gonna make it a really interesting conversation.[00:01:28] Lara: I agree. I agree. And you know, I talk a lot about lazy or the fact that I don't think lazy is a thing. but I think that it manifests in so many ways for people.Some of the time people don't rest because they think they should be productive. And the other flip side of it is. If they try to rest, they don't actually rest because they feel like they shouldn't be resting. Like there's two sides of it where it almost always is pushing people to feel badly about resting.[00:01:59] Rowan: Oh, what? what if you're both asking for a friend, a very, very, very close friend of mine who maybe doesn't rest until let's say, oh, I don't know. He gets diagnosed with burnout and then when he burns out, just feels bad about binge watching TV because he should be doing something productive with his time off.[00:02:22] Lara: Yes, because when you take time off for burnout. It is meant to be like a vacation, right? Like you're like, oh, now that I'm not doing this thing, now I should have time to catch up on all the other things I haven't done. So the whole topic is wrapped up in the fact that all of us have been taught our whole lives that productivity is the most important thing.[00:02:51] Rowan: Yeah, like the most important thing, because when you even think of the school system, like the standard North American school system, that's about all I can speak to here as a Canadian, it was designed to get these little worker bees out the door. It was designed that this particular system was built during the industrial revolution to get people.Educated enough to go out into the workforce. So we're taught right away that we need to be productive. It's, we're asked when we're like, in kindergarten, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And it's not about like, I want to be a good person, or I want to, you know, play with dogs No, no, no. It's about what job do you want?So it's drilled in from the get go.[00:03:37] Lara: Yeah. And. We tend to take most of our value out of our productivity, right? So how well have I done in my job? How much money have I made? How you know well, do I keep my house clean all of the, I worked hard and I've been productive. Stuff is stuff that people come and praise you for and therefore people think if I don't do that, what worth do I have in the world?[00:04:02] Rowan: By people you might mean me, although I have. Deprogram myself to an extent over time, but I would be lying if I said, this isn't something that is drilled so far into my psyche that every moment that I rest there's this like, some small part of me that's like, Hey Rowan, you know, the floor in the kitchen could really use mopping right now.Right? Like, this is what I get to, , it's like I can't just sit still. It, takes training. It's hard. I.[00:04:33] Lara: It does. It takes a lot of training. And again, so like for that two sides of it, there are the people who feel like when they're not doing something, they're like, I should be doing this, I should be doing this, I should be doing this.And there as a whole other school of people who are like, I am a lazy ass, I guess I accept that about myself.[00:04:54] Rowan: Hmm.[00:04:55] Lara: But like, so there's not necessarily the call to do as much but their self-worth. Even if they say it jokingly is taking a hit for it, right? Like, I am somebody who is just lazy. I don't care about all of that.I accept that about me is still a judgment because when, so here, here's an example. So people will say, oh, what are you up to this weekend? Oh, I'm just gonna have a lazy weekend. And that means they're gonna stay in. And they're maybe gonna watch some TV and read a book.[00:05:27] Rowan: Mm-hmm.[00:05:27] Lara: And they are justifying being lazy by having it be a choice.But what if you're not being lazy? Like, don't use the word, you're not being lazy. I am having a restful weekend. yeah.[00:05:44] Rowan: Yes. I, I think that. Is something that, when you said, I'm having a lazy weekend. I hear that word lazy in that context. So much more than I hear something like restful or relaxing or peaceful or restorative. Right? Because that really is what rest is, right? It's restorative.We actually need it to be at our best anyway, but it's always the part we're willing, well we, me and some of my. People who are like me, we're the ones who are like, oh, that's the part I can ignore. everything else I can do, I can just let that go a little bit. It's okay. I'm just, , I'm built different.I can just keep going. Like the Energizer bunny.[00:06:29] Lara: Yeah. I mean, again, there's so many sides to it, but I think so much of it comes down to the fact that we think we need to be going, going, going. We think that to be doing well, we are always doing, and that resting is just something that, you know, only people who aren't successful, only people who aren't really, you know, motivated need.You know, it's the hustle culture, which I hate, right? Like the people I remember things would be like, oh , you don't even need to sleep. Three hours a night is enough. Why did you need to sleep more than three hours a night? Just train your body not to. I'd be like, cut.[00:07:11] Rowan: Your body's gonna break down.There's just no way to sleep three hours a night and be a healthy human being. Like has been proven again and again and again. It's not even a debate, but I remember when science started saying, you know, instead of eight hours rest, you know, six is totally fine. And I have to wonder what the motivation.Behind even studying something like that is, but I mean, that's okay. I'm not a scientist, so I mean, maybe there's some valid reasons for studying it, but going beyond that, I think a lot of it when it comes to like just sleep from touching on sleep itself, sleep is extremely restorative and it is something that, largely depends on how restful your night's sleep is as well, right?If if you have a baby or a puppy or a partner, like me who snores and you can't find your earplugs and you know, if you have sleep apnea, if there's all these different reasons why somebody , you know, their. Eight hours of sleep is not as restful as my eight hours of sleep.So to say that it's okay to get six would be even worse for them than it would be for someone like me. And I think the whole thing honestly comes down to, I hate to say it. Capitalism,[00:08:30] Lara: of course.[00:08:30] Rowan: It's it's capitalism, right? It's all about capitalism. Productivity is all about making money for someone and therefore making money for yourself.It's all about putting food on the table. It's all this system that we have designed. I. And has, eroded over time because you look at our grandparents, so you and I are both of a certain age. We're both Gen X. you look at our grandparents, you even look at our parents, and these were people who, not everyone, but largely as a generation, could go work a nine to five job.Come home and rest afterwards. And a lot of them could survive. A family could survive on one income. It was, you know, middle class really existed back then. there was a golden age of that, the fifties, the sixties. That was really much a golden age, at least in North America for this kind of ideal, capitalist society.And then it got so much worse over time. Now it's so bad and people are working two, three, sometimes four jobs just to survive. with no hope of owning a house, with no hope of having a child and being able to support them with no hope of anything. Right. influencers have gone so far as to make morning routine videos.I mean, have you watched some of these morning routine videos? They are. Really beyond anything I can comprehend. Have you seen some of them?[00:09:56] Lara: I mean, I don't know. I've seen a lot of getting ready videos, and maybe morning routine. Tell me, what you're talking about. Oh,[00:10:03] Rowan: there's, I mean, it's things like you have this.Young, chiseled, apparently successful guy. And he is like, this is my morning routine. And it starts at four in the morning, you know, at 3 45. He gets up, , he does a. A huge workout routine. He, meditates and he brushes his teeth and he makes this like really intricate breakfast that is, all like macronutrient balanced then you'll go for a jog and itjust goes on and it's essentially like this entire, like, half a workday before he even starts his workday and.The claim is if you do that, you're going to be more successful because you are starting your day out right now. Look, I'm a big fan of morning routines. I have one myself, but it's not filming worthy. Nobody wants to see that, but like it's really, I mean, I get up, I go have a coffee, I chat with my loved ones for a few minutes.I go upstairs, I exercise, I take my medication, I have a shower, I get dressed. And I go on with my day, right? But it's a much shorter window. And if I don't get enough sleep, I often skip the exercise, to get enough sleep. 'cause if I don't do that, I'm going to fall apart. And that's the part that people are missing when these guys are claiming to work until 11:30 PM go to sleep and get up at a quarter to four.[00:11:29] Lara: Yeah. And maybe you do need to make a video like that to normalize the fact that it doesn't need to be so intense. To be valuable. Like this is right. This is it. Right? Like all of this is why we think resting is lazy. And I still struggle with it, right? I love to binge watch television like I am excellent at that.[00:11:53] Rowan: It's a skill. It's a skill.[00:11:55] Lara: I am told not everybody can sit and watch 10 episodes of something in a row. I. I don't know why I find it quite doable. I'm proud of you. But this is what's happened right over time is I have felt like I'm a lazy person because I like to do that because I will quote unquote lose a whole day doing something completely unproductive, which is watching television.And the old version of me that really was stuck in that, and again, it still creeps back in. That would then negate any of the success that I had. It didn't matter how many, conferences I'd run, or businesses I'd started, or people I'd helped or how well I'd done in my career.The fact that my house can be messy and I would rather watch TV in that case. Then clean it up means I'm a lazy person. End of story. Right? Like it would just negate everything. And that's why I think it's such an important conversation because there's the part where I say this and I always say it with like a, I'm gonna say something else afterwards, right?So one is we can be more productive when we rest. I do not do my best work. After not having slept well, I do not do my best work on hour 12 of a workday like that is not when I do my best work. And so when we remember that rest and stopping and slowing down can help us be better at the things we're trying to do, and maybe it does help us be more productive, I think that's a good thing.But then I also wanna say you can just rest for no reason too. You don't have to just rest so that it makes you more productive. Both are true.[00:13:37] Rowan: Both aretrue for sure. there is also I think a conversation to be had and maybe, you know, we can touch on this a minute. so I know, 'cause I'm thinking, you know, people are gonna listen to this episode and then they're going to say, okay, but listen you two, I have a roommate and my roommate never does the dishes.And he's always just sitting there watching TV at the end of the day and he says, well, yeah, I'm just chilling out. I've had a long day, but then that means I have to do the dishes because you know, it's one, it's one thing if it happens once or twice, but what if chronically, I. Somebody just does not do the things they need to do to help say a household run smoothly or help a workplace run smoothly or whatever it is.Right? Like where is that line do you think, between, somebody who is prioritizing rest and not being healthy . And what would you, I wouldn't wanna call it lazy, that somebody isn't, you know, maybe pulling their weight in the household or pulling their weight at work or whatever it might be.I'd like to think there's possibly an underlying issue going on there. we don't wanna call it lazy. What, do you think? What are your thoughts on that?[00:14:52] Lara: Yeah, no, I don't think it's lazy. It's I mean, I think it's always something else. Is it, are they unmotivated? Is it that they're exhausted?Is it that they're overwhelmed? Is it that they don't know how? Right? Like there's so many things that it can be like, I have issues with executive dysfunction, right? Like sometimes it's just really difficult. To start doing something when I know I don't really wanna do it. Right. So like it is difficult.I live in a house of five people with a DHD. Like, we all struggle with this. It is. Challenging.[00:15:30] Rowan: I bet.[00:15:30] Lara: So what do we do about it? Right? Like that becomes the thing. So again, none of what I'm saying is like, oh, so everybody live in a totally messy house, never do anything, just, you know, lay on the couch all the time, done and done it.That is not what I'm saying, I think you know that, but it's about balance to a certain extent, and it's about. Expectations. So in terms of if we use the example of like in your house, it's setting expectations. It's asking people to understand what your non-negotiables are, what is really important to you, for example, with a roommate, but also being flexible.So if your roommate doesn't really care if the dishes are in the sink until tomorrow morning, and then they're gonna do them tomorrow morning and you really care. You might say, well, since I really care, I'm gonna do them.[00:16:20] Rowan: Yeah, yeah. To me, I think the way thatI would view it as well is it's like say, I'm gonna use an anxiety disorder for, an example.What is the difference between having sort of a normal level of anxiety and an anxiety disorder? It becomes a disorder. If it gets in the way of you living a happy life, right? As soon as it impedes your life so much that you can't really function, that's when it's a problem. And I think rest could be viewed the same way, and that level would be different for everybody.if I'm taking, and I say this as somebody who, again, has a hard time taking risks, but I'm trying to look at it from a very healthy standpoint here. So if I am. Taking rest and it is benefiting me to take that rest and I can see that it's helping me. And maybe it's hard at first, but I get used to it and I'm allocating time to rest.And also it's not harming. I. Other very important things in my life now. And when I say harming, I don't mean that the little gremlin in my head is going, you should be more productive. You should be more productive. Like why are you just sitting here lazy? Like, you know, I'm not talking about that.That is something I need to work on internally. But if it's like. Oh, you know, my food is rotting on the counter because I'm not putting it away when it gets delivered or, you know, I'm running into problems at work because I am. Not doing the things that I need to do there, or this is really harming my relationship that I'm not doing as much around the house as my partner would like.I think at that point it's good to take a closer look at rest, but those are real tangible things and the end result is you're still treating yourself well because you're still going, yes, rest is important. Yes, I need it. And also. Something's happening where I'm having a really hard time getting started on these tasks that I need to do.What is going on? Maybe I should investigate that a little bit. You know, am I depressed? Is there something going on with my mental health? Am I not feeling well in another way? Why is my energy really low? Why is that maybe I should go talk to my doctor? Right? and it's like my relationship is really important to me and I love this person very much, so maybe I should examine these things so that it also improves my relationship and it helps us, connect better.So all of those things I think are. That's the nuance in the discussion. It's like, rest, very important. I think a lot of us need to take more of it than we're really taking. And also, you know, if we're having a hard time getting started on things, not because we're just really enjoying our rest and we know we need it and we're being good to ourselves, but if we're having a really hard time getting started or completing tasks, maybe look into why so we understand it better.[00:19:13] Lara: Yeah, because I don't think anybody. Is putting, bags of groceries on the counter and walking away, leaving them there and saying, I need to rest now.[00:19:24] Rowan: Right, right. Exactly. But they might be forgetting them.[00:19:27] Lara: Yeah, absolutely.[00:19:28] Rowan: Yeah,[00:19:28] Lara: absolutely. That is something I do all the time. I get distracted and then I'm like, whoops.Right. but that is not me saying I prioritize my rest over finishing the task that I started of. Bringing groceries into the house and putting them away.[00:19:44] Rowan: Exactly. That was probably a bad example. I'm sorry, I think I was more thinking about the forgetting part than anything.[00:19:51] Lara: But I think that , that's what happens is we forget that there are other things that are playing into it, and therefore that's not really what we're talking about when we think of rest.It's the extremes of everything. Right. So either. I am a lazy bum or I'm super productive, you know, or because of my work as a business coach, I have people who struggle so much with sales. And so the two options in their head seems to be never try to make an offer at all, or be that smarmy, used car salesman type of person, right?those are the two options. Like there's nothing in the middle, right? Like, and so we go to these extremes, so either. Resting means we're not doing enough. Or as soon as somebody's sitting down, it's because they're being lazy. Versus the fact that a lot of times people don't mean to not do the things that they should do.Right. There's so many reasons they might not be doing it, but it's not generally willful in many ways the other side of that is that the people who can take time to rest worry that other people are gonna see them as lazy, you know what I mean? Like the people who don't wanna rest because they don't wanna be seen as lazy, they don't even give themselves permission.[00:21:08] Rowan: Well, I think a lot of that also comes from childhood, not just in school, but our parents. Right. A lot of us were told by our parents, you know, why are you just sitting around like, it's summertime, right? We've been in school all year, we're tired. I might be, I might be speaking from person. and I love my parents.My parents are great people, but you know, we all come with our own lessons that we then teach our children. And I remember, you know, it's summer, I am resting, and maybe I'm resting because I'm tired from, you know, 10 months of school. Maybe I'm resting because I got bullied all through school and it's really nice to finally have some downtime and days where I'm not harassed day after day, maybe I just had a long day playing with my best friend down the street and I just want to watch TV now.And I remember my dad would come by sometimes and he'd be like, Rowan, what? What are you doing? Just lying there. Go be productive. Right. Go be productive. Go be productive. And I, that is stuck in my head now, right? And so that is the voice that I now fight with. And I'm sure my dad was told, I've never asked him, but I'm sure he was told the same thing by his parents.Mm-hmm. And he wasn't taught how to rest. So he wasn't being a jerk. It was just that, that is what he was taught. And he's like, what, what are you doing? Like, don't, be lazy. Go do something. But I think it's important to have the conversations about why people struggle with rest in the sense that it's all tied together.It can be messaging from childhood. It can be. Trauma or depression or some other sort of mental health concern. It can be, executive dysfunction from being neurodivergent. It can be all kinds of things. Sometimes I've talked to a couple people who found out in their thirties or forties or even fifties maybe, that they had chronic pain.And they didn't even know they were in pain until they were no longer in pain. And so everything they were doing every day was so much harder for them and they couldn't understand why they needed to sit down so much. Right? So there's all these different things. I think we need to give ourselves grace and give others around us grace for that reason.[00:23:27] Lara: And we tend to measure ourselves against everybody else as if we're all the same. Right. And as somebody who has struggled with a lot of pain and a lot of chronic fatigue, it took me a long time to realize just how different my starting point is from everybody else, right? So other people can get up and go and do things and they don't understand what it's like for it to be difficult, so they're like, if you just want it enough, just want it enough, and you, that's how you do it.And they don't understand that that is not true. That what they are doing when they don't wanna do something and what somebody who really is struggling with chronic fatigue, like it is not the same.[00:24:11] Rowan: This morning I said,right before we did this episode, I posted on social media. Hello to everyone who woke up today and got outta bed, even though it felt like the hardest thing you've ever done.The world can feel impossibly heavy sometimes, but here you are. I've been there and I see you, and I think those little messages are really important because the minute that happens to somebody, I remember this, I remember being really depressed and having no energy because I was so depressed. And lying in bed and going, Rowan, you just have to get outta bed.Like just, what's wrong with you. Just get outta bed and I would eventually get outta bed and it's now 10 o'clock and I normally get up at, you know, six or seven and I feel like a piece of crap because I couldn't do it. And I think what you said just there, where it's like your starting point is at a different level than a lot of people's starting points.We don't make enough room for that. Not just with ourselves, but also with other people. Mm-hmm. We just don't, and it is, such a, heartbreak because. It's extra stress that we then carry throughout the day and that extra stress and the shame, the shame of feeling like you're judging yourself as somehow unworthy or just, you know, not enough or the shame of being judged by others for that same reason.That just compounds over time. And then everything we do every day gets harder and harder and harder. I don't see what purpose it serves, I think I'm having a bit of a realization myself as I say this, but I don't see what purpose it serves to be hard on ourselves when we don't have the energy.[00:25:58] Lara: Right. I. And the reason we are hard on ourselves is because we're always supposed to be doing more and trying to improve ourselves and trying to work further towards our goals of success, and that is what we're supposed to do. Therefore, if we're not doing it, boo, I.[00:26:18] Rowan: Do you think the nineties played a role in this?Because I'm thinking back to my bookshelf in the nineties and that was when self-help books became a big thing. I. And like I know you and I have both written books that we hope will benefit people. So in that, in that sense, I'm not disparaging the act of creating a piece of work that you hope will resonate with somebody else.Or will help somebody else, but I think there was in the early to mid nineties, a big surge in, you can fix yourself, you can grow, you can be better than you are right now. And all you need to do is follow these steps to get there. Like do you remember all those books?[00:27:00] Lara: Yeah. but they haven't stopped coming, right?Like they, yeah,[00:27:04] Rowan: I suppose that's true. They definitely,[00:27:05] Lara: I remember them becoming more and more prominent, but like more and more. There are tons of people who are still trying to teach you how to get more done in less time not so that you can rest. so the fact is when technology came into play and you know, some things were gonna get easier, I think the dream was we could work less because machines and technology and efficiencies made things easier.But what we did. Because of capitalism, I would say is mm-hmm Everything that became easier gave us more time to do more work. And the fact that we can now carry computers in our pockets and have computers at home and do work in the evenings, has meant that jobs that very easily ended at the end of the day.It's so easy to just keep working when you get home, right? Oh, I don't mind. Mm-hmm. I'm just gonna check my email. Oh, I don't mind. I'm just gonna pull out my laptop and do a thing. So all of these things that were meant, I think ultimately to sort of decrease the amount of we have to work, have increased our expectations.And so many people are out there telling you how to optimize every second of your day towards more money, more success, more. More, more, more, more.[00:28:22] Rowan: And I'm gonna say as somebody who has lived both, you know, everything from like very impoverished, on social assistance, living in shelters to, living well as an upper middle class person.Like everything in between, All that does. The only thing that happens, and this is the sad reality, is you get more money. So you buy more things to make your life what you think will be better, and then you take on more work because you want more things and everything you make. your lifestyle just scales to it.So there's never really a point unless you're really smart about it, where you go, you know what, okay, that's enough right there. That's good right there. Because , it's not a personal failing. It's, I've just seen this play out time and time and time and time again. Right. And I'm hyper aware of it and I still fall into that trap at times.But society is trying. Capitalism is trying to get you to a certain point. So you go, okay, I'm now at this level, which means that my dining experiences should be this and my house should look like this, and my car should look like this. My vacation should look like this and my clothes should look like this.Right? So you scale up, and so there's never a time, unless you're very smart about it, where you go. Okay. That's the most amount of money that I'm gonna need right now. And everything else I'm gonna put into savings or this is the most amount of money that I need right now, and I'm going to stop trying to earn more, stop trying to get promotions, stop trying to get to the next thing.And the reason this hit me as hard as it did, not just because I know what it's like to live with virtually nothing is. A very good friend of mine ended up with not one, but two children who had cancer. It's a genetic thing in their family, and out of the three kids, two of them carried that genetic predisposition.Unfortunately, both have had cancer and one sadly passed away. She died during the pandemic. Her name was Sophia and I, I like to say her name and I know her mom likes me to say her name. And Sophia was an absolute light. She was a beautiful, beautiful little girl and she passed away after a really tough battle with brain cancer.And when that happened, I really took pause because I realized nothing that I do is more important than love. Nothing that I do, no money that I make, no amount of work, is worth not having enough time with my loved ones. When I say I have a hard time resting, I have a hard time doing what you do, which is sitting there watching a show or playing a video game or whatever it is.I have a really hard time with that. And that's because I am not having a, you know, there's no conversation going on. So it's just my head is just constantly going, Hey Rowan, think of all the things you have to do, think of your to-do list. but spending time with family and friends and loved ones, that is rest absolutely.For me, it's restorative for me, and I never ever take that for granted, and I never feel bad about it. I just wanted to tell that story because we don't understand that all of the other stuff doesn't really matter. I mean, yes, we wanna be able to live. Yeah. Again, I have lived with nothing, so I know how important it is to have a roof over your head and to have food on the table and have a little extra to enjoy your life.That is very important to most people. But. Nothing beyond that, and not even that, honestly is more important than spending time with the people you care about. And I have seen too many people work so hard for what they think is the dream, this idea of success, that they completely overlook how important and fleeting those moments are with their family members.Until they don't have them anymore. And that whether that is the loss of somebody special to you or your relationship falls apart because , you, couldn't maintain it. Or, , your mother gets Alzheimer's and doesn't remember who you are anymore, and you never spent that time with her beforehand because you were so busy workingwe need to remember, like really think about what our values are and what we wanna get outta this life. And I think it is much more than the hustle.[00:33:02] Lara: Mm-hmm. It's, it's so many more things. And I think you said a lot of important things there. One of which is how we rest doesn't need to look the same either.Right. If you find going for a hike, restful. Have at it, right? Like[00:33:20] Rowan: that's my version of rest for sure. I love it. Right?[00:33:22] Lara: if you like to binge watch tv, do it. But if you don't like to binge watch tv, you don't need to force yourself to do it so that you're resting, right? We all need to figure out what is actually restful to us and give ourselves permission to have it.And I think. So many people, you may have heard these kinds of stories too, but how many people have retired and then like died because they're so conditioned to work, work, work, work, work. They've probably overdone it their whole lives. and they never got to enjoy the things they said they would do later.[00:33:57] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. And I actually know someone, not a close someone, but someone who died three weeks after retirement, who worked hard his entire life and hardly spent any money to enjoy himself, hardly spent any time to the things he wanted to do. His entire plan was he, he worked in government and he was like, I'm just gonna work and work and work and work and then get my pension.Then I will retire and then I'll be able to do all of these things. And he died of a heart attack three weeks after retirement. I mean, yeah, rest is important now, not later. Now[00:34:34] Lara: it's not unusual,but the other pieces, there are so many people who worked, worked, worked, worked, worked, and they said they'll rest later.And when they get to later, they don't know how to rest. They don't know what to do with themselves. They don't know how to feel. a sense of enjoyment out of rest. And that's not good either.[00:34:54] Rowan: None of it is good. I, alright, , let's switch this. Go. This is so depressing. Let's, switch this up a little bit.I feel like I've just talked about, a lot of really dark stuff in a very short period of time. But tell me your top Favorite ways to rest when you think of rest, I know binge watching TV is gonna be one of them. What else do you do?[00:35:13] Lara: I like to make art.Sometimes I do them together. Not always. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. But a lot of the time I do them together. I liked, you know, one of my very favorite things is to take a nap outside at a cottage while it's raining. Like that is one of the most. Calming to my whole system. Things like the sound of the rain in the trees, it's like kind of cool.I'm outside. There's a bit of a breeze. Look at me being outdoors. I, I often call myself I, I love being outdoor adjacent. Like I'm not super like, interested in going out for hikes, but I love being right there looking at it and enjoying like the smell and the sound of it. So taking naps.Spending time with my family is absolutely one of them, but like vacationing with them is something I enjoy. I do not find it restful. So in terms of rest, it is the quiet things, but I'm also tired a lot. My body needs. A lot of recuperation time and so for me, rest is very rarely going to be something strenuous because I already don't have a lot of extra, so I might do it, but it's not like rest time.That's like when I say a holiday and a vacation, well I don't even know which one it is. Right. But like traveling is not restful. It's exciting, it's fun. It's something I'm glad I get to do. It's something I wanna do with my family, but it is not restful. And the reason that I wanna point that out also is that I don't know how many times I've had people say to me after they've been on a big trip and they come home and then they have to go back to work.And they thought that they would be rejuvenated for work when they got back from a big, amazing trip. And I was like, of course you are not. You just did this huge thing. It took a lot out of you. You didn't rest at all. And so there's like this time period when you get home where you're absolutely not extra motivated for work just because you got to do something fun.You didn't rest at all.[00:37:15] Rowan: yeah, exactly. I[00:37:16] Lara: totally went off track from your question. I said some things that I like to do to rest.[00:37:21] Rowan: I think you said two or three. Yeah, I think you said three. Three, three. That's okay. Three is fine. Yeah,[00:37:26] Lara: those are my main ones. I can do those a lot.[00:37:29] Rowan: Yeah. I love the cottage.I'm actually going to a cottage this weekend and it's gonna be raining, so I'm gonna try your method.[00:37:34] Lara: Outdoor naps, you find like a covered area. It's perfect if it's particularly cool because then you just get blankets, right? Like it's cold around you, but then you're like in a little cozy nest.Of blankets, there's like a cool breeze around you. And then the sound of rain come, especially if there's trees coming through the leaves, is just bliss for me. I love[00:37:58] Rowan: I love it. I like to do some of the things that you do. I watch TV every night with my loved ones. Like we always spend an hour or so watching something together, and that that's a very restful thing for me.I can just can't watch a lot of it. Like I, I'm too antsy. I'm a very energetic person, so sort of the opposite of you. I have a lot of nervous energy. My mom also has a lot of nervous energy, so I know where I get it from. I am, a hiker. And I live in downtown Toronto, so I'm not hiking very much these days, but I'm walking everywhere.so there's a limit. I'm older. I'm not exactly a small person, so if I start walking 10 KA day, I'm really gonna start feeling it. But do I average five or six a day? I absolutely do because I love to get out and walk around the city, discover new things, so that I find that very restful.I too do art. I love to paint, so I'm an abstract painter. That's one of my favorite things. I like video games because at least the video game I am, I'm doing something active. So I guess it's a lot like if you are a crochet. And you crochet while you watch tv. So for me, I'll play a video game, like I'm playing boulders Skate three right now, and I'm just obsessed with the storyline, right?So I can just get sucked right into it. And then an hour and a half, two hours go by, I'm like, oh, look at me. I've been sitting for an hour and a half to two hours. Good job. But I should probably get up and do something now. See, that's my downfall. I don't like to play with my dog. Just hang out with my dog and talk to him and, play with him.And just put some music on. I love to put some music on and just kind of dance around the house and stuff while I do things and, and that might not seem restful, but it is actually quite restful for me. And music has been shown to help regulate your nervous system. Getting up and dance and listening to some of your favorite music calms the nervous system down because it lets this very primitive part of us know that we're safe because what would we do after a day spent out?Foraging or hunting and running from predators. Back when we lived,, in caves or you know, wherever we lived, we would. Go back to our group of people and we would maybe have a fire and we would roast the day's meals that we found. We would cook together and we would dance together and we would sing and create music.So I think that's why it's really, really soothing. So like, I'm an active rester, I guess. So maybe, maybe it's not that I can't rest. This is like sort of my big moment. Here's my light bulb moment. Maybe it's not that I can't rest, maybe it's that my rest is just different than yours rest..[00:40:37] Lara: Mm-hmm.And it's totally fine if it is. Some people probably feel calmer when they clean. If you're cleaning because you frantically feel like you must, that's probably not restful. If it actually feels good to have things clean and you enjoy the act of cleaning, and you particularly enjoy the result of a clean and tidy space.Then maybe that's fine.[00:41:01] Rowan: oh, that's me for sure.Yeah.[00:41:03] Lara: I, I kind of wish I felt that way, but I don't. Um, and so all of this to say what I really hope as I seem to do at the end of all of these episodes, I'm like, what do I want you to take away from this? This is what I hope you take away, is that if you rest a lot.That is okay. It's not lazy if you try to rest but spend most of the time resting, feeling like you shouldn't be resting and you should be doing something else. Try to remind yourself that it doesn't need to be that way. This morning I sent you a TikTok and I wrote down the messaging of it. It's Tara DiFrancesco, and we can put the link to it in our show notes, but.The TikTok said it's not exactly restful if you hate yourself the entire time for being unproductive. And that is what I think so many people end up doing.[00:41:57] Rowan: that is why I replied to you and said, I feel called out. Mm-hmm. But I'm gonna look at it differently now. Both because we had this amazing conversation today, and also because I did learn that in fact I do rest more than I realized.I just do Maybe, maybe it's called active resting. You know, maybe I don't wanna coin that as some kind of toxic thing. By the way, I think if we start to go with active resting, people are going to start to abuse it and start saying like, yes, when I am, you know, training for my marathon. I'm active resting.Yeah. It's like, okay, no, you're, you're doing something you really enjoy, but your body's taking a beating, but I did really learn something today, and I hope other people did too. You are, you are an incredibly wise human being and I love doing this podcast with you because. I get a lot out of it just in the doing, and I just know that other people are going to by listening.[00:42:56] Lara: Mm. I love having these conversations with you too, and I hope everybody can decide that if they want to rest, they're allowed to rest and they are not being lazy. lazy. Thanks for joining us today. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

My, my, my… How are we already on our THIRD episode? If you’ve been listening in so far, thank you! And if you’re just checking us out for the first time, welcome! We’re glad you’re here.Most of us have expected nothing short of perfect from ourselves at one point or another. And why wouldn’t we? Society has done a banger of a job at making us believe it’s the most important element of success and happiness. Sure, it might not be fed to us exactly like that, but it’s hidden in other messaging: The parent who asked why you got 90% and not 100% on that math test, the “guru” motivational speaker who says you must follow these exact steps to reach the C-Suite, or the beauty professional who suggests a few injections could make your face look a whole lot better—when you’re just there to buy mascara.In this episode, we dig into the quest for perfectionism in a world where there is, in fact, no perfect. Humans are so silly. But don’t worry, we share some fun stories along the way.We also referenced two of our books. If you want to find out more you can do that on our author sites:You’re Not LazyLove Lives HereTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: what I need to remember for myself is I bring my own uniqueness to anything that I do, so it doesn't have to this brand new, perfect, seamless concept.[00:00:37] Lara: Hi everyone. Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara Wellman. And I am Rowan Jte Knox. And we are back today with another episode to talk about another fun, and sort of mind bending. If you think about it, the topic, perfection,[00:00:54] Rowan: perfection or perf perfection or see this is, this is. I'm gonna tell this story at some point today because I think it's a good one.But are we doing perfection? Are we doing perfectionism? And what is the difference between the two? That's a good question, right? Like perfection is getting something perfect and perfectionism to me is like is seeking to get everything perfect.[00:01:21] Lara: I think it's both. I think it's both because. We are seeking to make things perfect, but I also think there is no perfect.[00:01:29] Rowan: It's true. There's no perfect except you, of course. But you know, this is how I score podcast points and I need to score podcast points because I'm gonna tell the listeners what happened today. it's actually in its own way. Perfect. so I texted you this morning and I said. Hey. so I did not write down what time we're recording this podcast today.I forgot to put it in my calendar. And also I did not write down what the topic was that we ended up choosing, 'cause we were going back and forth on a couple of them. so, could you give those answers and you said, we're recording at 11. The topic is, perfectionism. And I was like, well, isn't that just excellent?I'm like, I'm the opposite. I won, I won the perfectionism game.[00:02:17] Lara: Well, I think we both did because I was then able to say , I, I said, I. But can we, can we push it? Right. I guess. I don't feel ready. and I think that this sort of, you know, straddles between two of the topics. We're now talking about perfectionism and people pleasing because you're like, oh no, I have not.Been perfect. I have not figured out how to be ready, even though I don't want to be right now, and I don't wanna let you down and ask you to move things, but I did and it was fine. Right? Here we go. This is like us living our lessons in real time so that we can talk about them with full authenticity.[00:02:56] Rowan: It's true. And I was like, I could and, and, and believe me, I thought about it as a recovering people pleaser, I thought. About not telling you that I had no idea what we were talking about today, and I, I was like, I have media training. Like I can just go in there and not know what I'm doing and then wing it, you know, which can work out.Pretty well sometimes and kind of only sort of, well, other times. But regardless if you don't see the shock looked on my face, you're, you're just gonna be like, all right, cool. So he is not as prepared. But he did know what we were talking about today, but I definitely did not. I had no idea.And it's funny how hard we are on ourselves, right? Like as adults, we have. 50,000 things to think about every week. And I don't even think I'm exaggerating, especially these days. There's so much going on. Everything is moving so quickly and yet we're still focused on this idea of getting it all right all the time.it has been pervasive in my own life for sure.[00:03:56] Lara: So let's jump right into the whole topic 'cause this is one I like to talk about often. It's one that has come up. Very regularly for me as a business coach talking to people, helping people move forward in their business because perfectionism. Is the kind of thing that holds us back, right?So when we are trying to make sure that we are doing things, you know, quote unquote perfectly, we often don't think we've achieved that and therefore we are never ready to start, right? So it's one of those things that it's not like, well, you know, it just means that what I do is really high quality. What it.More often than not means is that that great idea you had never actually comes out into the world because it was never perfect enough. And so realizing that perfection and the desire to be perfect is not actually helping you, which is what, you know, your like brain is trying to tell you like, I'm just trying to do a good job.Leave me alone. Like why wouldn't I wanna do the best possible thing? What it's actually doing is just. Having you stand in your own way from actually trying things, doing things, experiencing things,[00:05:04] Rowan: what do you think is the main driver behind perfectionism? Like what is the core emotion that you think most people are feeling in those moments?[00:05:15] Lara: I mean, again, everybody's different, but for most people it's the fear that they're not going. To live up to whatever thing it is they're doing, right? That somebody's going to judge them, that they're gonna be told they didn't do a good job, that somebody's gonna think somebody else would've done this better, that somebody's gonna think I knew you weren't very good at.And it could be anything. It could be how you're speaking. It could be, that you make grammar mistakes. It could be that you feel like you haven't lost enough weight to look good on camera, right? There's so many things, but it's. Almost always a matter of if I don't do it well enough, people won't like it or people will criticize it.[00:05:56] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. It's,, it's fear. It's just fear. That's, that's what, came to mind for me as well. Like whenever I start getting obsessed with this idea that everything has to be perfect, it's fear of letting myself down, fear of letting others down, fear of. Whatever creative endeavor that I'm taking, not being well received, and I would have to really think hard to come up with a number to go on what you were saying earlier, to come up with a number of projects that I abandoned before I even started them, because I immediately would go to.Well, this has been done before, right? Like somebody else has already done this before. Or I would immediately think of somebody else who does something similar to what I'm thinking of, and I'm like, well, they do it so well. There's no way I could do it that well. And what is even the point of trying?And so I think comparison and perfectionism can really play into each other for me.[00:06:57] Lara: Yeah, and the thing I always wanna remind people is just because something can be even better than it is now doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't good. What you're doing can be good. It can have value, it can be great.In fact, can it be even better? Maybe. But there's almost always something that can be better and something that can be worse than whatever you're doing. Or something that could be just completely different and it's not in the same, you know, category of things. So just because it can be better doesn't mean you need to wait.And most of the time, until you start actually doing the thing, you're not going to get better.[00:07:37] Rowan: Get better. That's the hard part. That's the hard part is I mean, for anything I remember just starting to make. Reels or tiktoks or something. You know, the idea of broaching video of it felt very intimidating because what I was watching, you know, I would see all these very skilled professionals and I had to remember that they became skilled professionals because they started.Where I was, and when I say skilled professionals, I'm talking about somebody who works in, you know, film and tv. I'm talking about somebody who does this type of, social media. You know, I hate to use the term influencers because I think influencer, you know, it can mean a bunch of different things. But, you know, say influencers, who.Started with the idea, like, I'm going to do these videos and I'm now watching them, you know, 5, 8, 10 years later, some of them. And yeah, everything they're putting together, it is sleek. It is sexy. it is edited so well, and the lighting's really good and, you know, they don't miss a beat in what they say.and when you look at that, and you're right at the start. It's like, well, what on earth would I have to offer? And I'm never, I'm not like that. I can't do that. And, their messaging is so on point, and I, I don't know what, I don't know what I'm doing. but what I need to remember for myself is I bring my own uniqueness to anything that I do, so it doesn't have to this brand new, perfect, seamless concept.I think that's virtually impossible now with billions of people on the planet and most of them, able to share their ideas in some way. Right. I think that we do a disservice to ourselves and honestly others when we don't take that leap outta fear of not being perfect at it.[00:09:28] Lara: Yeah.So there's a whole bunch of things I wanna say all at once. This happens to me a lot, but. Number one, when we are authentically ourselves and saying things in our way, we are probably reaching people who needed to hear it in just that way, in just those words, with just those anecdote. Doesn't matter how many other people heard it, it doesn't mean that you can't impact somebody and give them value in the way that you are saying, presenting it and talking about it.And that goes to my whole, there is no perfect and I always say that, and sometimes I think that people think that means like, so what's the point in trying? But what my point really is, is that we don't all think the same thing is perfect. Some people love a minimalist aesthetic. Some people like myself prefer more maximalist, right?Some people would like like a five minute soundbite bite, and some people would like a two hour, three hour in depth podcast. Neither option in both those cases is wrong. It's different. But there is somebody who's gonna be like, oh my gosh, why is this so long? And somebody else who's gonna be with the short one be like, like, how am I supposed to get anything from this if you don't go more in depth?Right? Because there are always people who are gonna want different things. There is never one thing that is going to be perfect for everybody. And what that can give you permission to understand is trying to make something perfect for everybody is not possible. It's simply not possible. And therefore, if you can just let go of the fact that that's a thing you're trying to achieve, something that everybody is gonna think is perfect, then you can just lean into the thing you wanna do.You can try different things. I'm not saying. Go put out crap like that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying get outta your head and stop thinking. It's not as perfect as it could be. I need to get it just so,[00:11:33] Rowan: yeah. Now see, I have to think on that a little bit because as somebody who is starting a whole bunch of new projects right now, I feel like I'm just reinventing myself all over the place.it has taken me a long time to get to the point where I'm even willing to try to do those things, and we do have to get out of our own way to make that happen. And I wanna go back to the idea of people pleasing and how much this impacts our need, our quest for perfectionism, if you will.yesterday I invited. Friends over for dinner and I, I make bagels. I've been making bagels forever. Oh. And and I enjoy it, you know, if I'm in the right mood. And yesterday I had some time and so I thought, well, I'll make some bagels and we'll have sandwiches. I'm just gonna do something really, really easy for dinner.Just some sandwiches, like some bagels. And that's that. And then I thought uhoh, like, I think I was halfway through the bagel making process and I thought. But what if, what if some of the people don't like bagels? so rather than just order some stuff at the store or go to the store and get like some bread or No, no, no, no.Now I also had to make buns because the idea of disappointing anyone, anyone who didn't like bagels. And also like, if I was gonna make bagels, why wouldn't I make buns? So this really simple idea that I had. That would've been just fine with everybody, I'm sure turned into me running around the kitchen on my feet.My old man back is like sore as can be. and I'm trying to just like get everything perfect. And then I had to course, then I had to take pictures of everything, you know, for the gram. and I, I did that too. And I had to stop at one point and go, Rowan, like, why? You know, the whole point is that people want to come over and hang out with you.They just wanna come over and spend time with you. Why are you going outta your way to create this perfect meal when you already laid it out that it was going to be this simple, let's just all hang out together. Thing, perfectionism is, it's taught, , we learn a lot of it from , our childhood. A lot of things go back to childhood, but I think we learn a lot.Of perfectionism, maybe by watching our parents do the same thing. Like I can't tell you how many, holidays, you know, we would have Christmas and. My parents, I mean, bless them. They, they had four children. I was the eldest. And then they had, they had me and then when I was eight, 10, and 12, they had my sister and my two brothers.And my youngest brother has Down Syndrome and , , he was very high needs as a baby and a child. And yet my parents insisted like, we're going to host Christmas dinner. And it was. Absolutely the most stressful day of the year, like after we opened gifts in the morning, it was just because, I guess, you know, it was this idea of having to have the house perfect and the meal perfect and us all looking perfect.And I just remember it being this unenjoyable thing because we tried so hard. I think from my young perspective to have it look. Great when people walked in the door, except instead of what it actually was, which was this chaotic disaster train of, of, of a very loving family, doing our best. But like, you know, the house was never that clean and the meals were never that put together.And, and we were never that put together as people, but this was what we projected at the door once family showed up. And you take that. And I think that's a lot of families, and I think that's a lot of situations that's, that's not abnormal. And you know, like, no disrespect to my parents, , but this is the type of stuff , the setting that we create in our families.And I have done that to an extent with my own family life. I brought that into my family life and then outwards into everything else that I do. It is so hard to unlearn.[00:15:46] Lara: Yes. It's an awful lot of pressure. And the other thing that I think that happens is that we don't pick and choose, right? So in reality, each family, each person has different things that they think are really important , that they do well and that they wanna do well, and that like just part of how they're creating a life.But then we see the other people who are like, you know, wrapping their kids' bedroom doors in the morning for their birthday and like there's like a balloon avalanche when they open their door. Do you know, have you ever seen any of this stuff? Like there's,[00:16:15] Rowan: yeah, I sure have. All[00:16:16] Lara: these things people do and you're like, for my kids, for my spouse, for my parents, for my friends.I need to, always be trying to do the very best to make sure that they know that they're loved, that I've created a good experience for them, that I've created a childhood full of memories. And there's this, so we took our kids on a cruise when they were quite little and my twins were not quite four.And it's like, you know, I need to[00:16:44] Rowan: stop you there for a second. I need to stop you there for a second. You took your family on a cruise when you had 3-year-old twins. First I need to know why.[00:16:54] Lara: It was a really good deal. I'm just imagining the chaos of this. And we drove, we drove to Florida. No, yeah, we did it.created this beautiful experience, amazing memories. And my daughter, who's about to be 16, but who was almost four at the time, has made it very clear that the only thing she remembers from that trip are one, the hallway outside the elevators. The cruise ship and that we took a yellow taxi cab.[00:17:25] Rowan: Great money well spent.[00:17:27] Lara: that's it. That's all she remembers from the trip. That being said, I think she has great memories of the fact that we took a trip, but like. You know, we have so much pressure that we put on ourselves to create all of these incredible memories and how am I gonna make sure that they had a childhood that was worth remembering with all these magical moments?And like, they're not gonna take what you think they're gonna take from it. They're going to feel, more cherished and loved by the little things than necessarily the big things you don't need to do. Everything, you don't need to see what other people are doing. The whole comparison stuff that comes from social media where you see that people are, you know, making their kids' favorite meal from scratch on their birthday and then some other people are like wrapping up their door and some other people are doing something else, and then now you think you need to do all of it or else you're not perfect, like the pressure we put on ourselves grows and grows and grows to unrealistic proportions.And then the only, acceptable way that we can see ourselves is as having failed.[00:18:33] Rowan: It's true. It's true. I,I don't wanna stay on the kid thing too long. 'cause not everybody has children, but my children, I just narrowly avoided the elf on the shelf phenomenon and. I gotta tell you the idea of having days upon days upon days of every single day that elf has to be in a different place doing a different thing.And you know, it's like that'd be creative every single day at that is pressure that nobody needs. Like, if you're all having fun with it, great. Do it. Outside of that though. Wow. Like I know me, I, not me. Now I've definitely grown a lot as a person. Clearly I took no notes for this episode.I had no idea what time we, or what we were talking about, but, uh, I may have gone too far into my perfectionism recovery, but I know that me, a few years ago, if Elf on the Shelf would've been a thing. I would've felt compelled to do it. I would've felt like I had to do it because yeah, what if my children didn't grow up with that?and it's funny, you know, because we do, I think as adults we might put a lot of emphasis on those things like you were saying. And all you have to do is just ask your children, Hey, do you remember what you got for your birthday last year? And most of the time, I mean, they might remember one thing, ask them what they got three years ago.They have no idea, but they can't, if they can't remember that, then maybe that isn't as important as we might think it is. my kids remember things like one year we had a dance party for one of our kids and we made a playlist and we had a candy bar They don't remember anything else about that party except that their friends came and they had a really good time and that there was music.You know, I mean, that was, that was pretty much it. and yeah, that did not take a lot of planning. It did not have to be perfect, and it was actually fun to do. So,may we all think of my child's dance party when we're, when we're thinking of, of recovering from perfectionism.[00:20:46] Lara: Because the magical, beautiful moments are not always the big, bold, complicated ones[00:20:52] Rowan: Exactly. Exactly. You, you wrote something about perfectionism in your book actually. That was quite good. And, I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask if you would read some of that. 'cause I,, I would really like to hear it again.[00:21:07] Lara: Alright. so. I said in my book, you're Not lazy. Just as we're taught to fear failure, we're taught to always strive for perfection.But here's the thing I've learned, there is no perfect. What I truly mean is there is no universal perfect. What is perfect to you is not perfect to someone else. To one person. Big is perfect to another. Small is perfect. We can't always please everyone, but trying to can become exhausting and demoralizing.When we realize this almighty perfection isn't possible, we can release ourselves from the goal of striving for it. We get to decide what is right for us. We get to let go of the expectations that we could ever do something that would make everyone happy. Trying to live up to all of this perfection is exhausting.No wonder we freeze up and then call ourselves lazy.[00:21:55] Rowan: Ugh. Wow. How long did it take you to learn that lesson?[00:21:58] Lara: A really long time. And, you know, for all that I've written this book , and said things , explained to people that I think, they don't need to strive for perfect.Writing a book was really, really, really hard because I had to confront all kinds of parts of myself about not being good enough, not writing well enough. Knowing that the first draft was really my messy first draft and that it was gonna need so much editing, like it is, not an easy thing for me.It certainly hit all kinds of my, like I was in my feelings for a long time when I started getting edits. Right.[00:22:36] Rowan: I, I have a great story about that too. So I, I had a lot of those same fears. When I started to write, I was actually approached by my publisher, to write my first book, which is a dream come true for most budding authors.I was very, very fortunate that I had a compelling story to write and that it got wind of this and they wanted it, and then immediately, imposter syndrome kicked in because, ,, I'm not embarrassed to say this whatsoever, but I, I received my high school diploma at 38 years old. I,experienced a lot of instability as a teenager, so I moved around a lot.there were times when I didn't have a place to live or I lived in a shelter, and, I went to seven different high schools at that time and I just, I just never was able to graduate. So once my kids got older, I decided to go back to school and I did graduate. But that's where my formal education ended.So, you know, fast forward, uh, couple more years and I am approached by my now publisher, to write my first book. And I am terrified because what on earth would I have to say? That would be of any help to anybody when I am not, you know, , well educated when I am not an academic, when there are people who can talk circles around me because they're, as far as I thought at the time, more intelligent than I was.I mean, I told myself all kinds of stories and, to end sort of that part of the argument. My, my book became a bestseller and it became a bestseller because I believe, I mean, the story for sure was my family's story, and it definitely, I think people needed to hear it, but also it was a very accessible read because I don't write in a complicated fashion.I write. Exactly the way I speak. So when, you know, it's cleaned up for sure. But when I'm writing, it's, you know, people have compared it to sitting across the table from me at a coffee shop and I'm just telling you my life story. And that is how some people, a lot of people in fact need to hear stories like mine.But when I remember, I had never written a book before and obviously, and so I write my first draft and I send it to my editor at the publishing house. And she, I, you know, she was, she's this amazing lady. She's retired now, but she was this amazing person and she, she said, okay, thank you so much, Rowan.I'm gonna, read this over. I'll get back to you with some edits,shortly. In a little while. I don't know what that means. I, I have no idea how long it takes to edit things. So I'm just going on about my life and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and like weeks go by and then it's like the holidays, I don't hear anything again.And I'm like, okay, well, at first I'm like, what if it's terrible? What if it's like absolutely terrible? And then I don't know what happened, but like I switched over to this other side for just a fleeting moment. Where I was like, maybe it's just so good. She doesn't have to edit very much. Anyway, so she sends me the edits back and she says, Hey, Rowan. So I, you know, I've had a look and I've made some changes and, some suggestions and, do not be alarmed by the amount of edits. it's just your first draft. It's okay. And I open it up. I kid you not, it was like the manuscript was hemorrhaging blood from all the red ink.I mean, it was just. Devastating to my ego and I just crawled into this like dark hole for two days and I was like, I'm a terrible writer. I'm never going to be good at anything in my life. I was fooling myself. She actually had an inkling and called me just to remind me that it was fine, but it is hard.It is really hard when you set a really, really high bar for yourself and are expecting that you're not going to meet it. Then you really don't meet it.[00:26:39] Lara: It is, and the thing is, we are not meant to get it perfect the first go round, but we think we are. We really think we are. my big example is there is no actor who is getting ready for a movie or a play who reads the script one time. And then gets on stage and they've got it nailed.[00:27:01] Rowan: Yeah.[00:27:01] Lara: That's not how it works. It takes practice, it takes tweaking. it's always better if somebody else is involved to give you feedback so that you're not just like staring at it and living with all in your own head. But if you think the goal was to do it perfectly, quote unquote, from the get go, you're immediately setting yourself up.To feel like crap. If you know it's going to take time. If you know there's always room for improvement, then you can just give yourself a little bit more room to be like, this is how it was supposed to go. Because I really think Right, we go back to childhood. You mentioned so much comes from childhood and it does because that's when we learn the ways of being in the world.And when we go to school, we are taught that. Getting perfect grades in school is the best thing ever. And failing is the worst thing ever. Like we are taught that you are meant to do things. Exactly 100% right. If we want praise and we are going to, scolded or told we're not good enough, if we fail.Which makes us afraid of trying things we think we're gonna fail at and makes us really judge ourselves if people don't come back with a hundred percent great job, no notes.[00:28:20] Rowan: It's true, it's true. I, I, I actually think school,can be a detriment in another way as well. And I am, borrowing this thought from somebody else and I heard it years ago, so I apologize that I cannot remember who said this to me or where I heard it, but.There is this idea with school aged children that they're supposed to excel at everything, every class that they take. They're supposed to be good in languages and math and science and sport and art, and, and, and, and. And. If they're having a struggle, if they are having a hard time in one of those subjects or two of those subjects, or three of those subjects, that is seen as a failure.It is seen that they're not working hard enough. Right. And find me an adult who is good at everything. If I'm an adult who is good at languages and math and science and sport and art, and, you know, I mean, you're not going to find that person. And so we immediately set children up to feel like they're not enough right from the get go.unless they are that rare child who does happen to excel in all those classes for some reason. But most of them. As adults will tell you that they lived under so much pressure, so much anxiety all the time, and you know, it costs them a lot in other ways. So I wish that we could allow more room for exploration.I wish we could allow more room for failure. I wish we could allow more room for what does not getting it right once or twice or always even. What, what does that teach us? Because we grow in challenging circumstances as human beings. we don't grow when it's easy. We don't. And so this quest for perfectionism, I believe, can be a disservice to us.I, I said the other day, I get a lot of hate on the internet because I'm very public about being a trans person. that is enough to get that kind of hate in, this age, of, divisiveness, I guess. And one of the things that I get a lot, a lot as a trans man is that people say, you're not a man.You're just an ugly looking woman. And, I don't believe it for a second. I think that's such a silly thing to say, but I used the term when I was talking about this the other day, I said, I'm not an ugly looking anything. I am joy forged in fire. And I think that that is the lesson that I've learned from realizing who I am, what my shortcomings are.That I'm not gonna get it right all the time. That there is no perfect that I'm just sort of perfectly uniquely me. And that's okay. And that has brought me a lot of joy and a lot of peace. And at this point in my life, I am, too old and too stubborn to let anyone take that away from me.But I'm glad I learned it[00:31:31] Lara: and I think. If we can all remember that, because a lot of what we're taught is perfect, is really just being able to do the thing other people want us to do, right? Be the way that other people want us to be. Here are the rules we've set up that are most convenient for us. Go be that.And if you don't achieve that, then you've failed. And when you understand that so much of perfection is just being able to regurgitate back to people versus. Really figuring out what you're good at, how you're good at it, and going that way, it can make the world of difference because innovation doesn't come from regurgitating somebody else's stuff.You have to be willing to try something that might not work in order to find something new. Different, and that's going to help people in a different way, right? Going a different direction has risk, but it also has the potential for a lot of payoff. We need to not be afraid of the fact that some things might not work and we need to not attach our value to perfection because that is just.so easy to fall down this like, I'm not good enough slope when you're measuring yourself up against the wrong things.[00:32:48] Rowan: I think I learned a lot of that through transition actually. There was, a reckoning I had to make with myself when I realized that I needed to start testosterone and move into this, this space of, manhood.And I'm watching,as a newcomer to this space, the various ways that men try to tell other men what the perfect man is. And the perfect man means totally different things to different people. there's the, you know, there's the alpha male bros. And like, you gotta go to the gym. You have to be fit, you know, you have to treat women like possessions.You have to, you know, you have to be successful and drive a sports car. You know, there's that idea. And then there's this other idea of. You have to be this really educated banker business bro, and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and you don't stay attached to women and I'm watching all of this, you know, and, and, and I'm thinking, I don't want to be, nor am I either of those things.I am this. interesting. I was gonna say weird, and I don't think weird's the right term. You can call it weird. I don't think that's a bad thing. But like, on this interesting collection of,experiences including having, given birth three times, you know, of having traveled in women's circles for a very long time ,and a whole bunch of other things that make up who I am and.If the epitome of manhood is any of those things, I'm never gonna meet them. But also, nor would I want to. I'm not interested in that. There is, no ideal man. There's no ideal woman. There's no ideal person of any gender. Actually, the ideal is just learning to be good with who you are and doing what you need to do to feel good in that space.But you know, the argument that a lot of people make, for example, is, well, you're never going to be a man because you know you weren't born with a penis. And I'm like, that's, that's your thing. That's your thing. that's, that is what actually makes a man. That's fascinating when there are so many other facets to manhood.so yeah, there is no perfect. And so I had to get really comfortable with the fact that I'm coming into this in a different way and I need to be right with me where I am now and wherever it is I end up. That has served me really well in other areas, including, perhaps maybe forgetting to write down when our next podcast, was, recording and what it was about and preparing for it whatsoever.But, but I mean, you know it again, I didn't beat myself up over it, you know? I just thought it was kind of funny and I'm like, well, you know, we all make mistakes. That is huge growth. And that comes from experience and learning to let go,[00:35:50] Lara: and people appreciate when they see other people model that behavior.Right? When somebody says, I made a mistake, but it's okay. It's a little bit Mind blowing to them. I've had people say, wow, I really appreciate that you just, you know, owned that you made a mistake and moved on because they've been taught that it shouldn't be that simple.[00:36:13] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. It's true. I mean, I, you know, back in the day I definitely said some things on the internet that, you know, we're not super controversial, but certainly were not things that.I didn't formulate the thought well enough. And it can be really hard to formulate a thought in a tweet, for example, because you only have so much space to write something. Whether it was misconstrued or construed correctly, but still upset people.you know, I would reflect on that. And then, you know, I, I was one of the people I think at the time when that was more of my life. I would actually apologize when I made a mistake. I'd say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that that hurt people. I'm sorry that I didn't word it properly. I'm sorry that I didn't have enough information.And I think, there were people who actually would reply and go like, oh, wow, I really thought you might double down on that. I was like, why? What does that teach me and how does that help anybody else? It's better if I just say, yeah, I messed up. I messed up, and I'm gonna do better going forward.and what a much better world that would be if we could get our egos outta the way a little more often.[00:37:22] Lara: It makes us more human. Humans make mistakes. Humans aren't infallible. Humans aren't meant to know everything all of the time. So if we pretend that we are something that we're not like, we're just putting forward something that isn't us.And I think at the crux of what we want from this podcast and what I hope people take away is that stopping and thinking and asking ourselves. What we want, what we believe, how we wanna do things instead of just moving forward on this sort of conveyor belt of life towards the, you know, goalposts, I'm mixing, metaphors I think, but,[00:37:59] Rowan: conveyor belt and goalposts.I like it. I like it. Yeah.[00:38:02] Lara: I don't know what game that is. Go sports. but like we. Often feel like we are meant to be something specific. And so we're constantly trying to chase that and what I think we both really believe is that when you can stop and ask yourself, what do you want? who am I? What do I believe that that's where we start to let go of so much shame.It's where we start to get the ability. To say I didn't do that as well as I'd want to, but that doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't mean that I'm not smart enough. When we are able to shed a lot of that, it gives us so much more time and space for being ourselves. And that is what I think both of us really want for people, is to be able to figure out who they are truly and let themselves be that person.[00:38:55] Rowan: And yes, and it's not just a self-serving thing If we can learn to give ourselves grace, we can also learn to give others around us grace. Hmm. If I hold myself to impossibly high standards, I'm more likely to hold other people to impossibly high standards and maybe they won't be the same standards.And I found them when I was particularly judgmental of other people. I was far more judgmental with myself, but the more that I was able to let go of the expectations I had for me. and the more I could accept that I was imperfect and that that was totally fine and normal and okay, the easier it was for me not to hold the other people in my life, and dare I say it, people online because, wow, were we mean to each other online?Do we ever expect this extremely high? Caliber of perfectionism, right? We really hold people way up. If you do not meet my expectations, I will tear you down in a heartbeat because we're so detached from them. We're not in front of them. We're in front of a keyboard. you know, the, the more I was able to do that, the more I could see things that maybe I didn't agree with.Maybe weren't worded properly, or maybe somebody in my life messed up and, you know, it hurt me or it upset me in some way. the easier it was for me to just forgive or give grace and move on. So it actually makes everything around us better. when, we can treat ourselves more kindly.[00:40:28] Lara: A hundred percent agree. A hundred percent. that's perfect. No, that's perfect. Perfect. but I do think it's a good way to sort of wrap up this conversation, right? Just remember that , it's, not just about giving yourself more grace. And it's certainly not just about like, it's okay if you suck at things.Like that's not what we're saying.[00:40:51] Rowan: But it is okay if you suck at things too. That's okay. It is[00:40:53] Lara: okay, but it, it's not about just being like, let all your standards go. None of them are of any importance. It's I mean, it's a lot about being more flexible and not thinking anything has to be one specific way.[00:41:09] Rowan: I love it. I love it. And I think your imperfect brain is. Imperfectly great.[00:41:17] Lara: Yours too.[00:41:19] Rowan: Wonderful.[00:41:20] Lara: And I would like to invite everybody who's listening, if you have any other topics that you would love to hear, Rowan and I unbox, please come to our substack first of all, you can subscribe so that you get all the updates about our latest episodes.But also tell us, we wanna hear what you wanna hear us talk about what you think are good topics to unbox. We're all in for talking about all the things. I think[00:41:45] Rowan: all the things. I have an endless supply of coffee and, an endless amount of text I can send to find out the next time we're recording.[00:41:52] Lara: Perfect. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

SURPRISE! Episode 2 is dropping early! And it’s a doozy.If this episode on people pleasing isn’t relatable, we might be a little jelly. Like a lot of you, both of us grew up trying to make everyone around us happy at any cost. From not wanting to make others upset to trying a million different ways to make sure they kept liking us (ever try taping your allowance into a card so your best friend would keep playing with you?… No? Only Rowan, then?), we talk about it all in this episode.Have a listen, then drop a comment and let us know how people pleasing has impacted your life. We’d also love to hear what you’ve done, if anything, to start putting yourself first instead of others.Things we mentioned in the podcastRowan’s book One Sunny AfternoonWe Can Do Hard Things Podcast episode - How do we identify our real needs and finally get them met?Transcript (AI-generated and might have errors)[00:00:00] Lara: That was a huge aha moment for me was when I thought to myself, why would everybody like me when I don't like everyone?[00:00:08] Rowan: Yeah. You said that to me once. You were the first person to say that to me.When you said it, I thought about it for like 572 hours.[00:00:41] Rowan: Hello everyone and welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.[00:00:46] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:48] Rowan: And today we are talking about people pleasing and I know a lot of you will be able to relate to that.I certainly can relate to that. What about you, Lara?[00:00:58] Lara: Uh, yeah. I've spent most of my life trying really hard to do it.[00:01:03] Rowan: I just want everyone to like me,[00:01:05] Lara: right. What?[00:01:07] Rowan: What's so wrong with that? Other than the fact that it can destroy you mentally, emotionally, and physically and probably spiritually.[00:01:14] Lara: Yeah. It's so much work to try to get everybody to like you all of the time, and on the other side, it's so crushing if you feel like you haven't succeeded.It's just so much work. Well, because you, you're, you're[00:01:28] Rowan: putting all this effort in. let's talk about what people pleasing is. First of all. How, how would you define people pleasing , if someone was to ask you, what does that even mean?[00:01:38] Lara: Well, it's a lot of things, but the first thing I think is it's, it's really, to me, the biggest thing is it's nobody being mad at me or nobody being like, not mad, but also not unhappy with me.Really, a lot of it is about my fear. I also do like to keep people happy and like make them content and make them feel happy. But there is a huge part of it for me that's about the fear of how they're gonna think about me and whether or not conflict is gonna come up.[00:02:07] Rowan: Disappointment.I think disappointment is a huge one for me. Like, don't let anyone down. Don't let anyone down. Right. And, and just the idea that I might do something that hurts someone or makes them feel bad or makes them feel like I don't care about them. I mean, it's just, that could be all encompassing.But I, I think, you know, if I were to describe people pleasing, it's everything you said. And then you also said something really important there, which was. Of course I like to make people feel happy. I like to do nice things for people, right? And, and this is where the line is drawn between something that is, a more typical human experience , and a healthy one, and something that becomes problematic or disorderly.And, I'll use the example of, let's do anxiety. There's a difference between having, anxiety, being anxious sometimes that's a very normal thing to feel. we all, you know, anxiety can, drive us. It can alert us to problems, it can keep us safe. But when it goes off the rails and it's all encompassing and it really interferes with our day-to-day lives, that is when it becomes a disorder.We can say that about a lot of different things. Feeling down versus feeling, you know, versus actually being depressed and, you know, even something like, A DHD, we can think about a DHD and how, extreme that can be and how much it can get in the way. But a lot of people feel distracted sometimes, or, you know, have some energy to burn or something, right?and, and I think people pleasing is the same thing where, yeah, of course we wanna do nice things for the people we care about. Of course we want to be decent human beings, even to strangers. Like we just wanna be part of this fabric of society. But when it becomes this, All encompassing need to get everyone to like you and to never, ever let anyone down or make them angry, or you're gonna fall apart.That's the problem. And unfortunately, a lot of us live with it.[00:04:10] Lara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's, comes up constantly, right? If you are afraid of letting people down, if you are afraid of doing something wrong, if you're. Like when it becomes that fear, it stops you from even trying some of the things you might do otherwise, right?Like how, what are all the things that we stop in our lives because we already have decided we can't make people happy or that we've sacrificed our own happiness for other people, which is certainly something, right? If anybody's going to have to be unhappy in this situation, it'll be me, is something I have thought many times.[00:04:49] Rowan: Ugh, you said that and it was like a punch in the gut. I think we also need to address something really important, and it's gonna come up a couple of times, I think, in this episode. I think that women and people who were raised as girls and that would include me. I was raised as a girl prior to transitioning.I lived as a woman. We are hyper conditioned to not put ourselves first, to look to other people, to make decisions for us, to get permission to live our truth, to get permission to do what we might really want to be doing inside. And you actually sent me, A podcast and said, you have to listen to this story, so why don't you tell me a little bit about that.[00:05:39] Lara: Yeah. So I often listen to the week and do Hard Things podcast, and there was an episode where, Glennon Doyle is telling a story about how she went into her basement and there were a bunch of teenagers down there, right? So. Of all genders, or at least boys and girls. And she asked them if they wanted anything to eat and most of the boys said, yep.And the girls all looked at one another to see what the other was gonna say. And then she said, and then it seemed like they, without talking to one another, somehow had appointed a spokesperson to say they were fine. Yeah, and it was just a really, good example of how girls tend to be unconsciously a lot of the time.societally taught to not take up too much space to not be a bother, to not need things and to not actually ask themselves if they need a thing, but to let other people decide for them so that they're not, again, taking up too much space or making the wrong decision,[00:06:47] Rowan: and being taught that so young that you all just instinctively know to look at each other and without saying anything collectively decide not to be trouble.Mm-hmm. it is, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking, and this is a, an issue around the world. I've written two memoirs and, and my second memoir, one sunny afternoon, I actually have an entire chapter on people pleasing, and I did a lot of research for this chapter, because.consider myself a recovering people pleaser, but when I say a recovering people pleaser, I, I say that , there are relapses too where when I'm feeling particularly vulnerable, when I'm being triggered by something, because I do have a complex form of PTSD, when any of those things happen, I will fall back to my previous behaviors very strongly.Put other people first. and one of the things that I learned anyway , in this chapter, and I'm gonna read a little bit of it in a minute, is the research shows that. All around the world. if you divide, and we know that, you know, like we're talking men and women here and, and I don't want to exclude anybody who doesn't identify as a man or a woman, but this study , was done, using men and women as examples and contrasting them against each other.57% of volunteering worldwide is done by women, and that is. If you sort of look at every country all over the world, and that figure is much higher when it comes to, healthcare, volunteering, so taking care of sick people, taking care of, of people with disabilities, taking care of anything along those lines that involves volunteering.The healthcare sector is higher and that is more taxing, I would say, than a lot of other types of volunteering in so many ways. The other thing that I learned, and I tried to find this study, and if I do end up finding the actual study again, we'll put it in the show notes. so you're just gonna have to trust me for now.Just, just believe me. I did my own research, I swear. but I read this really interesting study where. They were talking about how women in office environments take on more unpaid work, more volunteer type work in the office setting, and that would be things like hosting someone's baby shower, retirement party, doing the office, holiday party, any of those things.Women are looked to first to do it and are more likely to do it. And they're more likely to take on. It's not that men are not volunteering to do those things, to do some things, but the things that men tend to volunteer to do in an office setting, in a career setting are more likely to help their careers.they would look good on a resume. They would look good when they're going to ask for a raise. And the stuff that women are choosing to do overall, it's not bad. And women are still seen, despite all of that, less upward mobility and less money overall, despite contributing more in those ways to make the culture at the workplace better.So this is a systematic problem. It it's big.[00:10:14] Lara: Yeah. First it reminded me that my husband, many years ago, probably like. Close to 20 bought me a fridge magnet that said, stop me before I volunteer again.[00:10:25] Rowan: Ouch.[00:10:26] Lara: and when I did work in a corporate setting, I was the one who's like, I know we'll do a banana bread baking competition.And it was really like, it's always been, or like I would do like crafts in the lunchroom, which all sounds like, but like it was community building, right? Like people. felt more connected. I loved doing things that helped everybody feel connected and happy and like there was a little bit of more joy.But you're right, it's not the volunteering that would've gotten me a raise.[00:10:57] Rowan: And it could also hinder your ability to do work that. Could help you get a raise. and believe me, I'm, I'm not trying to be like rah rah capitalism here. That's not what I'm trying to do. It's just, this is what we're seeing everywhere and I think it is a really important role.I think women are truly the fabric of society. If it were not for women, we would not have nearly as much connection and community in our society. So it is a very important job, but it's also very underappreciated. And we don't take into consideration the toll that it can take on someone. I was diagnosed, it was, it was a little while back with burnout, but it wasn't work burnout, it was caregiver burnout.And again, I, you know, I wanted, I wanna say I'm a man, but I have a lot of those behaviors. That make it so that I don't automatically put myself first. I, I, I wish that I'd just come with testosterone, honestly, which I just, you know, started taking testosterone and suddenly I'm like, yeah, yeah. Hey babe, could you get me a beer?I'm just going to watch the game. None of that felt right to say, by the way, that everything I just said just felt wrong. but there is caregiver burnout. If you Google caregiver burnout, you're going to see a lot of references to people who work in healthcare. So they're caring for people and that act of caring, as we we mentioned before in, healthcare volunteering.But even if it's your job, regardless when you are dealing with sick people and disabled people and day after day and working long hours and giving so much of yourself. It does create burnout, but we forget. That burnout can also happen when you are a parent who is doing the bulk of the parenting. If you have children with some additional challenges, and you are constantly putting yourself last because you are constantly putting their needs first.Which, I mean, there's a whole conversation to be had about parenting and the importance of that and the priorities. And I mean, I have five kids myself, so I, I get it. But, you know, even just, you know, caring for aging parents. just giving and giving and giving and giving and constantly giving.maybe, maybe you have a partner who you know is dealing with a substance use disorder or chronic depression, and you are giving and giving and giving and it will wear you down it over time. That takes a toll on anyone. I don't care how resilient someone is. Over time it will, and the recovery time for that burnout is, months, sometimes years.Took me a really long time to come back. And from that time on, I really started to think about what I needed and to prioritize myself more. It's hard though when. You start to think there's this terrible word. There's terrible. I'm gonna say this word to you, Lara, and I think your face is going to change when I say it.I didn't wanna be selfish. Selfish. That's a dirty word, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. If, if somebody calls you selfish, if somebody says you are being selfish, how does that make you feel inside?[00:14:23] Lara: I mean, bad, right? Like, I, I don't even know. like I can't verbalize why, I mean, I guess I can, it's like, oh, it's important to care for others.in fact, I was listening to something that was talking about how the word selfless is revered, but like, think about what that word is, selfless. Like, let's try to get rid of ourselves. Only think about other people and that is revered. So of course we think selfish is bad and selfless is how we should be, and that is not taking care of ourselves.And that means that we are not important. It means that we don't learn to think of ourselves as important, or to prioritize ourselves and that we are. Really doing something that is radical When we say, you know what, I can be a bit selfish.[00:15:15] Rowan: Ooh, see, I can be a bit selfish. You said that. And even though I am in full agreement, I got this little like hit inside my stomach and my gut, I was like, oh no, I can't[00:15:26] Lara: Now find another word that means that.[00:15:29] Rowan: I mean, even say something like self-centered, self-centered is a terrible, term to use against somebody, right? Because you are using it against them. Mm-hmm. self-serving, self anything, self anything is, you know, the, the minute that you prioritize self, a lot of people will see that as being bad, but.Taking care of ourselves is an act of selflessness in its own way. Because by taking care of me and making sure that I have all my needs met, some of my wants met, that I'm in the best shape that I can be in every way, I can better serve the people around me as well.Because we are communal animals.I mean, there's, I don't think there's any getting around that and this idea of it having to be black and white, like, either I don't care about myself at all, or I don't care about anyone else at all. That doesn't make sense. There there is, there's a really nice, nuanced gray area in there, and I'm forever trying to live inside of it.But, but it's hard too, right? Because a lot of my childhood, trauma is what fueled my people pleasing. And I think actually I was gonna do this anyway. I'm going to read like about a page and a half. Of, my chapter on people pleasing because I found this when I was making notes for the show and I was like, I'm looking up what everyone else has said about people pleasing and forgetting that I wrote an entire chapter about it that has been published.So maybe I should look at that too and see if I had anything interesting to say. Mm-hmm. And I'm by far not an expert on the subject, but I do think that talking about. Childhood and what that, how fundamentally that shapes us because our experiences back then are the foundation of all of our experiences moving forward unless we actively recognize it and work to unlearn and change it.So. I'm gonna talk a little bit about what school was like for me growing up. This is just one example of the ways that I became a people pleaser, And, I was telling you earlier that normally I. Having done a couple of audio books, you're supposed to read these things on, you know, an iPad or something, but, I could not find my iPad this morning.So I am reading this from paper. So you're actually going to hear the pages turning, which is either going to be the best thing ever or sound really unprofessional, whatever. Anyway, you know what? I'm not here to make you happy. Ooh, did you wa Whoa.[00:18:13] Lara: Exactly.[00:18:14] Rowan: There we go. There we go. Okay, here we go. From one sunny afternoon, like many people, and for many reasons, I grew up a people pleaser.When my elementary school friend Jasmine, not her real name by the way, wanted to stop hanging out with me because my lack of popularity was limiting her social options, I should have told her to get lost, knowing I deserved better. Instead, I made her a card more than once, wrote her a pleading note about how much she meant to me.Taped coins to the inside of it in a desperate attempt to get her to change her mind. If I wasn't good enough for her, maybe money was, I didn't know how my days would be without her, and I didn't wanna find out. I suspected I would feel quite alone and be open to even more bullying than I already was.As long as she valued me, I had value because she believed I did. If she were to end the friendship, which she eventually did, I would lose my worth.I. My reaction to kids who chronically bullied me wasn't to stay as far away from them as possible, but rather to try to earn their friendship. I would bring the other 10 year old's little gifts like trading cards and rare marbles, and watch as they laughed at how pathetic I must have seemed to them.Sometimes they would almost appear to be reconsidering their view of me. They would chat about hanging out with me next recess, or maybe hint that I could go to the party they were throwing, that half the class was already invited to. These were exciting times. When I clung to hope like a well-loved baby blanket.I imagined my life would change for the better. With their acceptance, I would be safer. That's a key word here. Safer and school would be a place I no longer dreaded. Unfortunately, my hopes were always dashed. Those invitations to recess, hangouts and parties never came. No matter what I did, the kids who were mean to me continued to be mean.I never thought that the other kids were the problem, that their meanness and pettiness were issues that had nothing to do with me. I was convinced I was the issue. I wasn't trying hard enough. I wasn't good enough at figuring out what they needed. I had to do more to earn their acceptance because I wasn't innately likable, I mused..I had to be generous until they gave me a chance and discovered I wasn't so bad after all. Not only gave them little trinkets, but also laughed at their bad jokes. Let them believe they had all the answers, even when I knew they were wrong and allowed them to jump ahead of me in line whenever the teacher wasn't looking, they took full advantage.Why wouldn't they? I was a doormat who readily gave them somewhere to wipe their feet. I would dream about the day when the kids at school would finally figure out how wrong they had been about me this entire time and would accept me as one of them. At the very least, view me as someone worthy of marginal respect and not a punch in the face That day never came.Grade school was a time when I effectively paid someone to be my friend and gave stuff to kids who were horrendous to me. Every day I handed a piece of myself to people who didn't deserve it. I longed for acceptance so much that I was willing to do just about anything for it. If there was an award for people pleasing, I would have won it.No doubt. Probably given it to someone else.[00:21:31] Lara: Hmm.[00:21:32] Rowan: And that's how I grew up. I don't know how much of that was relatable, but you know, that is what I taught myself. That is what I decided was the lesson back then.[00:21:41] Lara: Yeah. I think a lot of us did. And it's, it's the piece where we get our value from other people.It's the part. Where we want so desperately to be seen and liked that that is more important than whether or not we like the other person. Right. That was a huge aha moment for me was when I thought to myself, why would everybody like me when I don't like everyone?[00:22:12] Rowan: Yeah. You said that to me once. You were the first person to say that to me.When you said it, I thought about it for like 572 hours.That's really profound. Like it is true, right? Like we work so hard trying to make these people happy. We want them to like us, but like, did I want to actually be friends with any of these bullies? No. They were miserable people. I wanted nothing to do with them. We didn't share the same values, but. I think what happens sometimes when we are young for whatever reason, if it is we're being bullied, if we're coming from an abusive household, if there's anything going on like that, especially the key becomes safety and there's safety in being everyone's friend and being useful to others.[00:23:02] Lara: And being wanted so that I feel like that is one that I had, right. When I look back at a lot of my behaviors in high school, in elementary school and into my twenties, the goal was more to be wanted than for me to find something that I wanted and hope it worked out. Like it was more just like I just wanted to be wanted.[00:23:24] Rowan: Yeah. and, and the fear of abandonment, right? The fear of just being alone. as you know, I said as much in the book where, even having one person who clearly was not a good fit for me, who would spend time for me, offered me some protection, some safety, some validation.if she were to go and she did eventually go. No matter how much money I tried to bribe her with, you know, it, it opened me up to, being more targeted and I felt worse about myself just overall because what does it mean about myself if nobody wants to spend time with me? Mm-hmm. And that, that's hard.That's a, that's a hard one. But, I think a lot of us have felt that way at one point or another. I think there are probably some people listening right now who are still stuck there to some degree. and I feel for you because I, as I said, I'm a recovering people pleaser, but it doesn't mean I don't still people please, from time to time.[00:24:25] Rowan: so I, I really empathize. But, but maybe we could talk a little bit about what happens, When we start to heal and we start to put ourselves first.[00:24:37] Lara: Yeah. I think see, , because most of us who are people pleasers. Don't think that we shouldn't be, right? Like we think, yeah, like this is what I should be doing.This is the right way to be in the world. When I do this, I'm going to get the results that I want. Like we think we're doing the right thing. We don't think that we are doing something that is actually potentially harmful to We don't realize that. It might even be[00:25:06] Rowan: like, like we tie it to our identities.Like I think I actually tied it straight to my identity like that. Well, that's being nice to people and doing things for people is just part of who I am.[00:25:15] Lara: Yeah. It's a good thing. Like it's a nice thing. Yeah. Like stop making it seem like it's not a good thing. We need people who do that in the world.Yeah, you're, saying this and I am, I really am having a visceral reaction. 'cause I'm like, it's like it's coming from inside my head.And, and so part of this I think is realizing that some of the things we're taught to believe, I mean, so many of the things that we're taught to believe, that's the stuff that I talk about a lot in my book.Like all of the things we were taught to believe are true Almost none of them are true, but they teach us that because it serves. Capitalism, the patriarchy, right? Yep. The more that we are convinced that we should be nice all the time, and not fighting back and not questioning what they say, the better off they are.And there's a little bit of that that's true here. It carries through into like, don't be full of yourself. Don't brag, don't tell everybody how great you are. Like we don't like that. And yet. I challenge you to think of a time that you haven't wanted someone, if you're hiring them, if you're working with them to not confidently believe that they're good at something, right?Like confidence is something that we like in people when we see it. Like not like. Fake confidence, right? Like if they're making it up and like all they are is bluster, like that's different. But if I am good at something and I confidently tell you that I'm good at something, most people like that and respect it.But we are told not to be bragging, not to be telling people how great we are, not to be too full of yourself. So that's one of the many things that we are taught that conflicts right? Like this is the thing we're gonna tell you. We actually really like this thing and they're conflicting. So of course we think we shouldn't do all these things that might make people unhappy, might make people uncomfortable, might make people think we're selfish.And yet the people who do get ahead who are successful aren't really afraid of putting that forward.[00:27:25] Rowan: Yeah, exactly that. I think that there is a big difference. And when I realized this, it was huge for me. There's a big difference between confidence and arrogance. Mm-hmm. So confidence just comes from self.we had that when we were born once we started to develop a sense of self, at least, I challenge you to find a young child who is not confident because unless they have grown up in a really, really oppressive situation. They do have confidence. That's how they are trying new things and singing as they skip down the street and, you know, and like loudly declaring their joy about something.Or you know, look at me, mommy, look at me. And like, you know this, it's a beautiful quality that does not require any comparison to others. It is not a competition. It is just, this is who I am. I am confident in myself and my abilities. Arrogance is completely different and it's so off-putting. I find confidence to be one, one of the most attractive qualities in a human being.I find arrogance to be one of the least attractive qualities and arrogance has everything to do with comparison. if I'm arrogant, I'm now comparing myself to you and you, and you, and you and you. So if. If I wanna feel good about myself as an arrogant person, I have to feel superior to you. I have to find something about you that is less than something about myself.That is a losing game. And I think sometimes people pleasers think I either have to be completely selfless and small and kind of invisible and only serve others, or I'm going to be this arrogant SOB, right? Like I don't think sometimes we realize that there is this really beautiful in-between state of having that innate wonderful confidence.Still wanting to do wonderful things for people. Like my partner just had her 50th birthday and I spent a month planning a dance party for her,, with other people in our lives. But I also planned an entire scavenger hunt day for her, where I took her all around the city of Toronto and all, a bunch of her favorite places.And I surprised her with people from her life, various parts of her life who would meet her with her next clue. So she had this like amazing race type thing and like. You know, I loved doing that. Was I exhausted? Yes. Was it stressful? Yes. Seeing the joy on her face and being able to be there as she experienced all of that, that meant more to me than I can tell you right now.and there's nothing wrong with doing that. Also feeling confident in my abilities and also feeling like I can put myself first also feeling like, you know, did I give myself a full day of rest after that and just put my feet up and I didn't cook and I didn't clean, I didn't do anything the next day.Yeah, you bet I did. Absolutely. You know, I mean, and that's okay. Whereas I think the before version of me would have not stopped. It would've been like, oh, well now I have to do this because what if I don't clean up enough? And what if I don't do this enough? And what if there's no dinner made tonight? And what if I don't?No, that's all right. It's okay. And that's that beautiful, , that's that in-between flow. If I could just have that all the time, I would be unstoppable.[00:30:53] Lara: Yeah. Well, there's a few things. One is, first of all, all that stuff, it comes back up no matter how much. We learn new things, it's okay if it comes back up.And I, I'm sure other people listening have this happen where you're like, why is this coming up again? I totally dealt with it. and so I just wanna remind everybody the key is that you see it and notice it faster and can come back from it without just falling into it again. Like, it's fine. We are all gonna get caught back up and stuff again.and the other thing is the people pleasing tendency that you've never, ever, ever done enough is part of it, right? Like you're, if you're constantly striving to have reached the goal of success, but there is no measure of success, then you're never having done enough. It's never enough. And sowhat I hope people take from this conversation is realizing that you can still be a kind person. You can still do really nice things for people, but you can also still look for ways to find value in yourself without needing somebody else to validate you. That you don't need to do everything everybody wants you to do to be a good and kind person, You don't need to have everybody like you because you don't like everybody. Like I think that is a big one. When I think about some of the people whose life views and values are different than mine, I don't like them, right? Like I don't. Why would they like me? Like for the same reasons, if I completely believe different things than them, of course they're not gonna like me.Do I wish that they would believe what I believe. Of course I do. They would also like me to believe what they believe. it's how it goes. And so, there's a whole other thing around perfection and maybe we'll do an episode on that, which I wrote about in my book. Where again, you can't do all the things for everybody because we're all different.So whatever we end up doing isn't going to please everybody.[00:32:48] Rowan: And this is also a big thing that I have to remind myself of all the time. I don't have any control over what other people think of me or my actions or how they might react to anything because I am not them. You know,And like, look at all the things that Rowan does. What a man, what an amazing man. I, you know, it doesn't matter. It's the same reason you can post artwork online that you did, and everyone's reaction to that artwork will be different. Some people will absolutely love it. Some people will absolutely hate it.It's not for them at all. Some people will think you chose wonderful colors, and some people will think that those colors don't go together at all, and they're not at all their taste or style, right? I mean, it's just you cannot predict how your actions, , unless they're, you know, really harmful actions are going to impact other people.So why try? just try to show up these days as the best version of myself and give what I am capable of giving without running dry , of all of the time and energy and care that I have. So, you know, I need to save some for myself. And whatever happens from that, happens from that. And. This sounds like a perfect utopian.Again, I really wish I did it every single day, but I would say I probably do it about 85, 90% of the time. Now, you know what? Considering that I used to tape coins into a card for a friend, I would say I'm doing pretty well. Good job, Rowan.[00:34:26] Lara: Good job, Rowan. I. Agree.[00:34:30] Rowan: This has been a great conversation.[00:34:31] Lara: It has.[00:34:32] Rowan: Yeah. I, I just wanna make sure you're happy with me. Are you happy with me?[00:34:36] Lara: Oh, yeah. But does it matter?[00:34:39] Rowan: It doesn't actually. It's funny. As I was on my way to record this podcast, I said to my partner, yeah, we're recording one on people pleasing in about 10 minutes. And she said, oh, that's wonderful. Hey, by the way, could you help me with a couple things first?[00:34:51] Lara: huh.[00:34:52] Rowan: And I almost said, yeah, sure, what do you need? And then I realized she was really trying to get me. I was like, oh, you're feisty. That's funny. Anyway. And I said, no, I can't. I have to make a coffee before I go do this. See, we all grow as people, everybody. We all grow as people.[00:35:08] Lara: We're learning.I'm like, we're doing, and like, I think again. Just as we wrap this up, like how well we learn to not be a people pleaser is not the goal here, right? Because then you're like, ah, I am like now I'm failing at this too, right? Like it's just like small steps.[00:35:26] Rowan: It's okay to be gentle with yourself. You're the only you there is in the whole world.You know? You're the only you that is and the only you that will ever be. So my goodness. Treat yourself like a precious. A little diamond and let yourself shine, and then also tuck yourself away in a little bag sometimes. And you know, just, I don't know why they do that with diamonds, but like, just go do that and just go hide out sometimes when you need that.Anyway, thank you for joining us today. Once again, I am Rowan.[00:35:52] Lara: And I'm Lara and I will say, if you like this podcast and it pleased you, please go and tell everybody about that too.[00:36:01] Rowan: Yes, please. Like it. Maybe subscribe. Well, that feels weird to say at the end of this one, but anyway, we do really, really appreciate your support. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to the very first episode of Unboxing It with Lara and Rowan!We’re thrilled you’re here. We started out with a topic that has impacted both of us most of our lives - fatness.We think is a conversation that more people need to have. Please comment below and let us know what you thought of the episode and if you have anything to add to the conversation!Scroll down to the bottom if you’d like to read the transcript of the show, and if you enjoy this episode, please feel free to tell all your friends :) Things we referenced in the episode:Tales of the City - we talk about Wren and Brian in this episode but apparently nobody other than Lara find this story of note (which is a great thing!)Oprah’s wagon of fat.Episode transcript:Unboxing it - On FatnessLara: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Today we're gonna talk about fatness and how it's not always a bad thing and just how it impacts the lives of like everyone.Rowan: Yeah. Whether you're fat or not, honestly.Lara: Absolutely. I think that how society views fatness, how society teaches us to feel about what people should look like, impacts.Everybody, and we're gonna talk about it a bit today.Rowan: I'm really looking forward to this one. I mean, I think it's gonna be a challenging conversation in part because, as progressive as I might feel on the subject, sometimes I also, this is something I struggle with. I really do struggle with it.Lara: Yeah. So it's personal for both of us, and it has been personal for both of us.For most of our lives,Rowan: yeah, I would say as soon as I ramped up into puberty, I started to be bigger than most of the other people around me. And [00:01:00] how that affected me was very negative for most of my life. I don't know about you, but definitely the messages that I received and the things that I was told about how my body looked really impacted.Everything about me.Lara: So maybe, we'll, I think it'd be interesting to start with a little context that, so Rowan and you and I are the same age, right? So we are born in the seventies and grew up in the eighties and had a lot of the same experiences. And what I was just thinking was like we grew up in, when we were little with like the Jane Fonda aerobics.Period. I don't know if you felt that that was part of what you experienced, but it's like everybody needs to work out. We're getting into this aerobic, we gotta be fit, we gotta be healthy, we have to have a certain look of body. The TV commercials included that what was it? Special K had the commercial where they're like, you can't pinch an inch on me.Like not being able to pinch an inch was the goal, and I [00:02:00] want. You to think about that if you have a body, which you should, if you're listening to this, how many people could say, there is not a single place on my body that I couldn't pinch an inch of fat.Rowan: Yeah, it's, just, it's not possible for pretty much anybody.And, , I want to just give a little bit of context too, that I am a transgender man, so I started transitioning in my forties, but up until then. I was raised as a girl and I grew up and lived as a woman and so I took on all of the stuff that women were taught about their bodies.I owned a Thigh Master. Do you remember the Thigh Master?Who did the, was that Suzanne Summers? Who did the Kai Master again? Yeah. Yeah. I found one used in the nineties. It. It did nothing. It did nothing. It made my thighs hurt.Lara: And so as we are in the early stages of this podcast, I think we can already state [00:03:00] for our listeners, you will probably hear a lot of Gen X references as we think back to all the things that have impacted us in our lives, which don't get me wrong, I think this is a fun and great thing.Gen X has lots of fun and great things to share.Rowan: Yeah, we're kind of badass. You know, we , we're the generation that just, we, we really did just get sent off into the woods every day. I mean, it was just, it was just like that. You, you learn a few things, but yeah, GenX, GenX fun. But I, I also think that this is one of those topics that is going to impact everybody no matter what generation they are.And. I know like with, you know, the way that my children, I have five kids and I know the way that they see their bodies. It's very different than how I saw my body. But I think in part that is because of what we were taught versus what they have been taught. We were the Oprah audience, for example.Lara: Yep. [00:04:00] Yeah. Oprah talked about her weight a lot and about the goal of not being fat, right? it's really fascinating because there were multiple of these very public figures who struggled with their weight, and therefore what they did with that was to publicly. Feel like they always had to fix it. And when you publicly see people constantly trying to fix what they look like, and you look like that, it's like the opposite of representation in a good way.Rowan: Yeah. I was thinking a lot about this because we, were talking about doing this topic as one of the first topics we cover. And so I was giving a lot of thought and, and where a lot of my. My dislike for my own body came from. And also about the people who perpetuated a lot of this, like Oprah herself.Yes. She, she definitely did have a lot to do in, when it came to diet [00:05:00] culture at that time. At the same time, she was a victim of it herself. And this is a thing that I try to keep in mind. I don't wanna shame anybody. I don't want, you know, I, I, I also cannot speak from the experience in her case of being a black woman.And, and you know, the, probably the most famous black woman on the planet. You know, at a time that was still very racist. You know, and, the amount of pressure that she must have been under in every way. So, you know, hats off to Oprah because she also brought a lot of good to the world, a lot of positivity, but she struggled with her weight very openly.I also think they gave us a space to struggle with our own things more openly. So again, hats off to her for that. But. I will never forget when she wheel, , what did she wheelbarrow out? She had, do you remember what that was? She, like, on stage she had lost a bunch of weight.Lara: It was like a wagon of fat maybe to [00:06:00] represent how much she'd lost something.Rowan: Oh yeah. Something like that. Something like that. It was, it was quite a moment. I remember it was all over the media and. When I saw, I don't remember what she had , in the wagon, but I remember seeing her and what that said to me in that moment was, well, if she can do it, why can't I do it?And I had tried to do it many times and I had not been successful long term. And that has been the story for a lot of people. Most people we know by the stats, if you take weight off. You tend to put it back onLara: and moreRowan: and more and more depending on how you do it, especially. Right. The Biggest Loser was was, was a big thing for us and also for probably older millennials, right?A lot of us watch The Biggest Loser. Even if you didn't watch it, you would see it all over anyway. And they have followed up scientists followed up with some of the Biggest Loser contestants. [00:07:00] And found that most of them did put the weight back on and that some of them are quite large today. They have much larger bodies even than they had before.But now their metabolisms are so messed up from that time period in their lives that they can't eat, say over 1200 calories a day without putting weight on. Like that is astounding to me. But I don't blame anyone and I don't judge anyone because. We were all fed the same ideas about our bodies,Lara: and I think this is gonna be a recurring topic for us.It's constantly the things that we were taught that made us feel. Shameful about our bodies or fearful of feeling shameful about our bodies. And that's why I say it like impacts so many people, right? There's not just those who were struggling to lose weight, but those who were like terrified of being fat, right?Like you certainly have heard people act like the very worst [00:08:00] thing that can happen to you is if suddenly you were made to be fat.Rowan: Yeah. I remember something about that with Bridgette Jones' diary and how, why am I blanking on her name? This is, this is gonna be a recurring theme too, by the way.I can't remember people's names to save my life.Lara: Renee Zellweger,Rowan: Renee Zellweger, and she was apparently really grossed out by having to put on weight for that role. And as somebody who was so much bigger than she was. That made me really sad about my own body. It really did. Yeah. And, and I don't think I was alone in that.So I think we certainly needed a fresh perspective. And that leads us to the idea of body positivity. And I know something you wanted to talk about body positivity you know, versus body neutrality. What is the difference? What does it mean? Is one [00:09:00] better than the other?Lara: Yeah. I, and I think I feel very similarly to this body positivity as, as just in general toxic positivity, right?Like nothing is wonderful all of the time. So let us not pretend that everything is wonderful all the time. And I feel like the, the goal with body positivity is to say like, everybody's great. Just how they are all the time. Love your body. Love your body. Love your body. So there's a couple of parts to that.One is sometimes there are things that you aren't gonna love. Like, like sometimes there are things that might need to change. Like it's not about the fact that everything is great no matter what. We just need to be positive about it. Love your body. The other thing with love your body is. If you've grown up in a culture that really makes you feel bad about your body, you cannot flip a switch and suddenly love your body.Rowan: [00:10:00] Ooh, it's true.Lara: And so asking people to do that, that is certainly something I've struggled with, right? Like, I should be okay with my body now. I should love my body now. I've been told I should love my body. Love your body, Lara. And I'm like, I don't, I don't.I am trying, but now I'm not only failing at not being fat, I'm failing at not loving my body.Rowan: Yeah. It's like a double fail. Yeah. I've seen that too.Lara: And so it's hard. Body neutrality just means like, we all have bodies. They're neither good nor bad, but we have them stop judging them based on.No information other than your eyeballsbecause you have no idea what else is going on. And for our lifetime, fat bodies are the ones that have been, I. Called out. I mean, once upon a time, fat bodies were like, wow, you must have a lot of money and be doing well and not have to work super hard if you have that body right. Like maybe they were revered in different [00:11:00] time periods But also there are a lot of really, really thin people who are thin for like not good reasons. They are not healthy. But people don't look at a thin person and think, oh. I mean, maybe that's changing a little bit, but you know, being thin and like, we have like really, really thin, but just like thin, like we have, how do we have clothing that is called size zeroRowan: or double Zero?Double zeroLara: zero wasn't small enough. Like do you people know what zero is?Rowan: Well it's kinda like we had, Xl and then we just stopped. We were just like, and now it's two XL and three XL and four xl, and five xl. And it's like, it doesn't, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. It's just like, well, if you're outside the norm, either you know, below a size one, I guess or above an extra large we're just gonna make up a whole new.[00:12:00] Way of representing clothing at that point. It's, it's a strange thing and you know, I, I think about this a lot because now that I have transitioned the way that people view my body has changed dramatically. This is, I say this all the time, this is one of the gifts of transgender people, is that. We have lived the other side of things.And so you get to see how society treats you either this way or that way. Right? And I know there are also non-binary people. I'm not taking away the non-binary experience here. I'm just saying that having lived as a woman, quote unquote, I'm using air quotes here and now living as a man, the way that everybody talks to me about my body has changed suddenly.I am allowed to look however I want, however I want present myself. Any which way? It's fine. I'm no [00:13:00] longer fat. I'm stocky. Mm-hmm. The, the language has changed and I'm like, no, no, I'm fat. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. You're a guy, you're stocky, you're portly. It's different, right? It's like it has a different, it's, it's less negative somehow now.Right? I am not expected to care for myself in the same way that I was expected to. And I'm, I'm, again, I'm using air quotes here because care for yourself takes on very, very negative meanings. Sometimes lots of people, no matter what size, take care of themselves. I certainly, I, I mean, I've been exercising.For well over a decade, almost every day. So I definitely am somebody who does. Prioritize, something like that. I'm also still a big person because guess what? Genetics, right? And exercise does not lead to weight loss for most people. There's lots of good reasons to exercise. I think that is one of the biggest lies we were fed though, especially in our generation.But I digress the way that I [00:14:00] am viewed now, like nobody brings up my BMI anymore. Nobody, makes, you know, comments on my stomach. So now that the algorithm has realized that I am a man, it doesn't feed me a bunch of diet articles anymore. You know, pun unintended.That was pretty good though, right? Feed me a bunch of diet articles. Mm-hmm. Anyway. Mm-hmm. You know, but it, it's, it's wild. What I'm trying to say here is that. In the age of Oprah, in the age of Rosie O'Donnell, who was also a bigger woman and, and you know, was expected, I think at the time, to not love her weight either.I cannot think of a man who was under so much scrutiny. For the size of his body, even though there were much larger men in Hollywood, and this has continued now we're many, many years beyond the Rosie O'Donnell and, and you know, the Oprah Show or many years past that now, and [00:15:00] still I'm seeing men are allowed to be bigger with less judgment than women are.Lara: And the judgment comes from everybody, right? It comes from other women. It comes from and I think this is part of the hardest part, is that it comes from the doctors. A lot of doctors blame everything on weight.Rowan: Everything on weight. Yeah. Everything. You, you are depressed. It's because you are, you are fat., the most amazing thing that happened to me recently, so I, I started taking testosterone just over a year ago and my blood pressure went up. Now we don't know if it went up because of testosterone or if it was just gonna go up anyway. It's really hard to know because I'm in my late forties, right?And lots of people have high blood pressure. The first thing I thought of when I saw high blood pressure. Was, it's my fault. I'm overweight. That's the problem. [00:16:00] And I went on this extreme. As I tend to do, I tend to do everything very extreme on this extreme like cleanse of, of the things that I ate and the way that, you know, and, and, and everything I did to try and modify it.I mean, I went, I went so hard. It did absolutely nothing. I felt so defeated at my next doctor's appointment and my doctor, he's a little younger than me, he's probably, I'm gonna say in his late, like mid, mid to late thirties, he was like, Rowan, it's a lot of reasons why people have high blood pressure and a lot of it is completely beyond your control.He's like, it's great that you're taking care of yourself, but don't kill yourself over it. Let's just get you some medication. And I love that he did not. Point out, you know, well Rowan, you know, maybe if you lost 30 pounds, right? That's not, that's not what he did. But my goodness, have I been through that and I know you've been through it too.Lara: Yeah. And for my whole [00:17:00] adult life, losing weight and being sent to specialists to help you lose weight, like this is constantly the messaging. I think it's starting to change. And so this is something I, I've told you about that. We can get into a little bit more here is that I think the younger your doctor, the more likely they are to not really completely focus on your weight and understand that this is something the medical community has done for a long time and start to change it.I think a lot of harm has been done by doctors saying, you just need to go lose weight without taking anything else into consideration, without taking into consideration. Just your family history. what happens when you try to lose weight, whether or not you're healthy, right? Like there are some things that you may go see your doctor about something.It's not really like your overall health, but it's always, always, you need to go lose weight. And losing weight is not. Easy. And I know some people think it must be in [00:18:00] fact, I saw this post on Facebook yesterday where somebody had shared a post from another coach and it was like basically saying that.if you were overweight and trying to tell people how to live a good life, you were out of integrity because you weren't doing the work to make sure that your body was kept up well.Rowan: Wow. Right? The audacityLara: and like, they honestly believe that. Right. People think. That everybody's experience is The same. And, I talk about this constantly in my work, in my work as a coach, in my book, all the things my, thing that I want everybody to understand is, and it might sound really obvious when I say it here, but it isn't obvious in the way people talk about things, which is we are all different.Rowan: Yeah.Lara: Not only in how we look, like our faces, but like our bodies are all different. Our [00:19:00] metabolisms are different. The way we think is different, the way we process information is different. Like we are all vastly different from one another, but people tend to think. It's not hard for me or, and this is one of my favorites.They think it's hard for me, but I do it anyway. And I'm like, I don't think what you think is hard is what I experience. But you think it is, and therefore you think if I did it, why can't you? you know, I don't always love to get up and go for a run every morning. But I do it anyway because I wanna take care of my body.And you're like, okay, great. But like the level of fatigue and the way my body feels is not just like, I don't really feel like getting up, like it's a different baseline, but people think it must be the same for everybody. So if I had the willpower to do it, I'm like. I feel like if you were where I'm at, you wouldn't have the willpower either, but you're not [00:20:00] acknowledging, we're starting at different places,Rowan: not acknowledging you're starting at different places and also not acknowledging privilege.I. Mm, this gets me every time. Like it would be really easy for me, for example, being, being a trans guy aside for a minute, it would be very easy for me to say to everybody, well, I exercise every day, so if I exercise every day, I mean, I don't see why you can't, but I also have the space in my life to exercise.And yeah, there have been times when the space has been harder to find, but I was still able to do it. I have financial security. A lot of people don't have that. Some people are working two or three shift jobs. How are you going to find time to work out? And if you are finding time to out, then what else are you giving up in your life to do that does, you know, I mean, some people are.They might have a gym [00:21:00] membership, but they can't really afford to eat, right? or they have kids who are young and if they're going to the gym all the time, or they're working out at home all the time, whatever, they're not spending that very limited time that they have with their children.I mean, people have chronic illnesses, people have invisible disabilities, people have mental health struggles. People have all kinds of things that weigh them down every day. And I mean, I'm not gonna say that I don't have some. But exercise in my life is important enough to me that I do it whenever I can.That does not mean that it is the same priority or just as easy for someone else. Why can't we understand that? you know, we, we, tend to think that everyone's just coming up with excuses. Excuse is not to eat salad every single day. You know, vegetables are expensive, my friend.Fresh vegetables are very pricey and not everybody can afford it. There are people who live in food deserts. They, don't have a grocery store nearby [00:22:00] and they cannot, they don't have a car. So good luck going to the grocery store. They have corner stores and small little bodegas and wherever they are and that's where they get their limited amount of food.People use food banks. I mean, I can go on and on and on, but I am so tired of that judgmental. If you are not doing what I am doing, then you're not trying hard enough. That's, that's bs.Lara: Yeah. And then they're like, they're just being lazy. And you know how I feel about the word lazy? Nobody is lazy.Rowan: No.Lara: There's always something else going on, whether it's they don't have the resources, they don't have the energy.I think that's a big one. Chronic fatigue is something I struggle with. I know other, you know, chronic illness, like if it's hard for you to get up and eat. Something that got delivered. Imagine how hard it is to get up and like make food from scratch, from real wholesome ingredients. Like it's true. I get that.That is a good idea, but if I can barely eat the [00:23:00] processed food because I'm having a rough day, it is not just a matter of power through to be able to regularly cook every meal from scratch.Rowan: That and you know. I was talking about this with the people I live with today, and I'm the biggest person out of my family.I would also be probably what we would consider by the amount of work that I do to take care of myself, the healthiest person, because genetics play a big role here and here's what happens. You'll have a smaller person and a larger person, let's say living just about the same lifestyle, and let's say that lifestyle involves a lot of processed food and not a lot of movement.The only person who is really going to hear about it and be judged for it usually is the larger person, even though. Same lifestyle, same lifestyle, same circumstances. But if you're bigger, you will bear the [00:24:00] brunt of that judgment, not just from your family or your friends or your partner or whoever it might be, but also from your doctors.Anytime there's anything wrong with you, as we've said, it'll be blamed on your weight, right? Whereas a smaller person. It'll be like, well, I mean, they'll get looked at and go, oh, you're probably pretty healthy. And then maybe when they dive into it, they'll say like, oh, maybe there's some things here that you could change, but the assumption when you or I go into a doctor's office, or you, or you or I enter a room, or whatever the assumption some people make, whether we like it or not, and I, I know we don't like it, but it is that person doesn't take care of themself.That person is lazy. That person eats poorly, that person doesn't move. And then you'll have somebody else, like some people that I love very dearly who are much smaller than me, who do not do the things that I do, but they walk into a room and the assumption is they are taking really good care of themselves and eating all the right [00:25:00] food and exercising, and we have to change this narrative.We have to change it.Lara: and I think that's why we wanted to talk about this is because I know, you know, how many people are walking around with this like heavy weight of shame on themselves, that they're not doing enough, that if only they could do more, why can't they just be thinner? So there's that whole part, especially the health part, right?It has been so screamed at us. That you should be thinner to be healthy, which is not true. Sometimes it's true, but it is not automatically true. It is not automatically true that anybody in a bigger body is really unhealthy. So there's that piece of it that we've like the shame of, of not being healthy, not taking care of yourselves.And then the part about how anybody who is fat is not attractive.Rowan: Ugh. I can't stand that one. I can't stand that one. Especially [00:26:00] somebody who, as a general rule, finds a lot of larger people, very attractive. Right. But also then there's, you know, you have people who especially men. Yes men. Cis men especially.I'm calling you out here. You have men who are on the dating scene who might, this girl might check off all of the boxes. She is smart and funny and beautiful and successful and anything else that you might be looking for, but the idea of introducing her to your friends or family because she's a bigger woman is too much for you.So you don't pursue that. And it, it just does a disservice to everyone. You have people you have men in their profiles and they'll say things like, no fat chicks, right? I mean, it's, it's terrible. I mean, first of all, nobody wants to date a guy like that. Like newsflash to you buddy.Nobody worth anything is gonna want to date a guy who very proudly says, no, [00:27:00] fat chicks on his profile. But like, that is, the way that, we, view bigger people. The stereotype is alive and well.Lara: Which is why, you know, at the beginning we were saying this conversation impacts everybody because people have been socialized to, to think a bigger body should not be thought of as attractive.I think there are a whole bunch of people who wouldn't want to be seen dating a fat person because they've been taught. Other people will think. You shouldn't be attracted to that and like so it goes on both sides, right? For me, I often struggled with people thinking I was attractive because I taught it's not possible.So therefore, if you think I'm attractive in a bigger body. Oh, oh, is it a fetish? Is it like, right. It's like problematic. It's not just, yeah. You know, we all have different preferences and that's fine. Like now I know I talk to people, they're like, I like bigger bodies. And I'm like, I don't immediately go to, well, I guess something's wrong with you then, [00:28:00] right?Like but that's how it felt a lot of my life, right? Like, I don't see how people could think I'm attractive. Like it's almost like. People could think I'm attractive despite my body, not including my body. Yes. Because society said that wasn't possible.Rowan: That's right. That's right. Exactly. And that it's a message that I still fight against today.You know, I've been posting very openly posting pictures of myself through my transition and very kindly, there'll be, a lot of people will be like, Rowan, you look great. You're, you're, you're a very handsome man. And my whole thing is, you know, I'll think, well, they're either just being nice because they just wanna be supportive.Or I'm like, oh, that's 'cause you haven't seen me at this angle or at this angle, or you haven't seen one of the full body pictures I posted and I have to stop myself and be like, you know. this is not how I would want anyone else to think about themselves. So I shouldn't think this way about myself either.But that [00:29:00] deprogramming, as we know, it takes a lot ofLara: time. A lot of time. It does. And it's deep. Right? I was looking at a couple of photos of myself today as we we're leading up to this conversation. So full body photos. Ugh. That's a tough one, right? Yeah. Like you are like, oh, like my head is fine full body, but I've had some photos taken by professional photographers and I was like, I look good in full body.And the first thought is, did you edit this to make it look like that?Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. But also, I mean yeah. It's like, did you edit it? And then the next thought is uhoh, is this a body dysmorphia moment?Lara: Mm-hmm.Rowan: Right. And for people who don't know what body dysmorphia is, you might have heard of body dysphoria, if you know trans people, if you've ever talked about that.And by dysphoria and by dysmorphia, there are some similarities, but body dysmorphia specifically is. not seeing your body the way it really [00:30:00] is. Seeing it as maybe bigger or smaller or taller or shorter, whatever it might be. Or seeing something that is, maybe exaggerated.Mm-hmm. And that is something that I definitely, I have a diagnosis of that and I know a lot of people struggle with that, including you. Yeah.Lara: Yeah. and I remember saying to a friend once, maybe I think I'm struggling with body dysmorphia, and she's like, just because you feel fat doesn't make it body dysmorphia.And I was like, okay. Yes. But also what I am seeing is from day to day, what I see in the mirror. Is vastly different and that is not possible. I did not change like yeah, 50 pounds in one day, but why? When I look in the mirror one day, I am like, I am disgustingly fat, and the next one I'm like, I look pretty good like That is too big of a difference.Rowan: Yeah. Yeah.Lara: For any real change that is absolutely a perception moment based on how I feel about myself, the [00:31:00] shame. Or, I mean, I don't know what it is on the good days, but it's fantastic. But it's also hard to believe.Rowan: It's tough. It's tough. , I go through the same thing.I'll wake up in the morning and kind of like shuffle my way over to the bathroom, and there are days where I'm like, Hey, yeah, I look pretty good, you know, and I can see it and I feel really good about it. And then there are days where I'm like, did I put on 50 pounds overnight?And, and again, first of all, how sad is it that I think that I might not look as good because I might have more weight on me. So again, that's, you know, something that, that, that really needs to change. But also when you have been fed this anti-fat messaging for decades. You again, you can't just flip a switch.You don't just flip a switch and go, and suddenly I love everything about myself. Self-acceptance can take time. And, and I think, you know, as we're talking about unboxing these ideas and, and [00:32:00] living outside of you know, the norm living outside of these, this messaging that we get, that we're all supposed to feel a certain way or behave a certain way or live a certain way.I really want to challenge this idea that there is a, you know, oh, here's a, a one size fits all approach to this. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, there are, Some people really do get to a place of true, pure self-acceptance and love. That's, that's definitely where I want to get. I really want to get there.I'm closer, a lot closer than I used to be, but I'm not there. Some people. You know, go all the way to, you know, they might, or they might just be like, I am, I'm fine no matter what. I don't love it. I don't hate it. So that whole, like body neutrality, I like that approach in, in its own way. That a body is frankly just a body.But there's so much nuance wrapped up in this as well. Right. I mean, I think as a trans person , I think it would be disingenuous as somebody who's going through [00:33:00] medical transition. To say that you don't need to change anything about yourself to love yourself.Mm-hmm. I mean, I love myself and that's why I'm transitioning. No question. But, you know, I, take hormones because I feel a lot better on those hormones. I'm not gonna lie and say that when I work out, I don't enjoy the fact that it, you know, that I have bigger muscles and wider shoulders and that sort of thing.That makes me feel really good. And if you ever see a video of this, if you happen to be watching this, rather than listening to this, my eyebrows are really dark today because my eyebrows are very sparse. So I, I decided to have them microbladed. Right. So now I'm in that weird dark phase, and then they're gonna go away completely and then they come back.It's, it's a very strange process, but that is something that I decided to do for myself. Could I have lived without it? Yeah, I could have lived without it. Do I feel better that I had it done? Hell yeah. Absolutely. I feel better that I had it done. So I do think there's so much nuance in these conversations.So [00:34:00] anybody who comes up with this, you know, this idea of like, everybody needs to. Think and feel this way that is radically different from this way. I, I, I think we're just arriving at the same place, just with different, a different message. And it's not, it's not a healthy one.Lara: I am a big believer in not speaking in absolutes and in not thinking there is any one thing that is true.Right? Like, like we have. Many things that can be true in many different ways. And so the idea of body positivity being not great is because the message is just love yourself for who you are. Just love yourself for who you are. Just love yourself for who you are. But like sometimes you don't love a thing, but like I mean, changing what I'm wearing is also changing something to feel better in my skin.Like there's so many ways to do things, not hating yourself. Society has taught you to is different than saying, I want to really bring [00:35:00] out what feels best in me. Like those are two separate things. And so the more we can talk about that and unpack it and figure out, right, and this is the thing. This is the thing.Rowan: This is it, huh? Okay.Lara: Yeah, it's, really. About whether or not you are letting society dictate how you should feel about yourself or whether you've had an opportunity to just within yourself, figure out how you feel about yourself.Rowan: Oh, okay. The crowd is screaming right now, like, ah. Because that, that is it.You just, to me, you just put it in you just put it in a nice little package and wrapped it up in a bow and handed it over to me because that has really guided any major decisions that I have made in the last little while about myself. Like I said, I worked out for, you know, I've been working out for over a decade.The reason I've been working out for over a decade. I didn't just start and say, I'm just gonna start working out now. I should also say at the [00:36:00] beginning of that, I was throwing my back out all the time. So this is what got it all started. I was throwing my back out all the time, and I was larger than I am now.I had a larger body than I have now. I was finding it hard to move around. My knees hurt, my back hurt, a lot of things hurt, so but first I approached it from this idea of, you know. Like disgust or self-hatred and I was like, oh, look at me. I'm so gross and I'm so unhealthy.And I, you know, and I tried to shame myself into it and I stopped. 'cause you know what? I had done that a few times before and I had never been successful. In making any significant change for the betterment of me, because we don't do things long term for people we don't like. No. So my first step, my first step, which took several months, maybe even a year before I did anything.I worked on loving myself. I worked on trying to take [00:37:00] care of that little person inside of me who really needed some love and support. I. Some people call that the inner child. It doesn't matter what you call it, but we all have that little, that little wounded human being inside of us who's been through it in the first few years.And so I really worked on loving him. When I got to the place where I was like, I can do this outta self-love. I love myself so much. I care about myself and I respect myself so much that I'm gonna go on this journey. And I don't have an end goal. There's no end goal. I'm not here to lose a hundred pounds.I'm not here to be able to bench press this much. I'm not here. That's not the goal. The goal is just to do something good for myself every day. That's when everything went really well, that's when I was able to put healthy behaviors in place. And I'm not talking extreme measures, I'm not an extreme anything.I do exercise. I enjoy an only exercise I enjoy and that changes from day to day. And from moment to moment I, I used to [00:38:00] run. I don't like running anymore. So, you know what? I stopped. I stopped. You know what I like doing? I like doing dance. Okay. Not, not in a class, I'm, I have no, I have no groove.No groove. I, yeah, it's terrible. But I, I'll do it, you know, I'll put on like a dance routine and I'll do that right. Or I'll do kickboxing So I did all that and like, I, I did take off some weight and I was able to keep it off. In large part because I did it, I think outta self-love and I just continue to make choices that work for me.Those choices, by the way, include chocolate almost every day. I love chocolate so much, but all of this to say that doing it because it felt right to me, not caring what anyone else thought. That is what made me successful. and people would look at me today, some people look at me and say like, but Rowan, you're not successful.Like you're still a big person. But that was never the goal. The goal was I wouldn't hurt my back all the time. The goal was so my [00:39:00] knees wouldn't hurt all the time. The goal was so I could play with my kids in the park and run around with them when they were younger. That's why I did it, and I was successful with that self-love.It makes a difference.Lara: Yeah, and I think just for me, some of the wording that I use of myself is, I wanna feel good in my body, whether it's feeling good in my body, physically, like does it hurt? Does it move? Can I do the things that I want to do? I. And also how I feel about how it looks. So like that is the big goal.I do think, you know, one of the things that again, will come up on in so many different areas is representation. And, and there was a story I wanted to tell about the first time that I felt like I saw a representation in this particular case that felt like, wow, right. It felt. I can't, like, it just felt like I didn't think this was possible.So let me set the scene. So there's a show. Called Tales of the City, the mini series. It's [00:40:00] happened, like, I think they've redone it or rebooted it several times, but it came out again in 2019. And like there's a side story, right? So it's like, like a really small thing. And in fact, I Googled it to be able to tell this story and I was like, there's like nobody has written about this amazing thing that this show.Like I talk about it constantly. Nobody's ever talked about how amazing this thing was. So I guess, you know, I don't know if it's spoken to as many people, but it, like, it spoke right to my heart. So what it was, was there were these characters and there was a man called Brian, played by Paul Gross, who I still think of as dressed up as a mounty,Rowan: but absolutely.Lara: And a woman who was called Wren, who was played by Michelle Buteau, who is. Also like the host on the Circle, the Netflix show. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like the circle. But she is a person in a bigger body and she and Paul Gross's character were romantically [00:41:00] involved and. Her weight never came up. So this is what we've seen a lot, right?There's a lot of movies and shows, and then it turns out that even though they're fat, they are pretty wonderful and worth being in a relationship with. Like, that's the, that's the end moral of most of the time that you see romances with somebody in a bigger body. Like it turns out they are still great.Like, yeah, even, even though they're fat.Rowan: Yeah, no, no, exactly. In spite of their body. It turns out they're wonderful.Lara: Right? And in this show, her weight was never talked about. It never, ever, she didn't talk about it. He didn't talk about, it was simply, we are attracted to one another.Rowan: Oh, I love that. I love that.Lara: And it was like, oh. Like, just like I've talked about it, it came out in 2019, so I've been talking about it for like six years. I was like, in this show there was this couple and [00:42:00] one of them was fat and it never came up.Rowan: This is the ultimate representation. 'cause as, as somebody who works in, in a lot of L-G-B-T-Q plus advocacy, I always say, you know, media will do a good job.Representing somebody who say is trans, when them being trans is just never an issue. you know, they, maybe they just happen to be trans. The first time I saw that happen was on a Netflix show called You. Okay. And it was, it was just a little side story. But , the main character, the antagonist, he, he has a bookstore and he has an employee who works at the bookstore and the employee gets in a relationship with a woman.She's a trans woman. It just never comes up. It's not even as far as I know, written into the story that she is [00:43:00] trans. I. She's just a woman that he falls for and they have this like really cute story and I love to see that sort of thing. It should not be abnormal. It should not be abnormal to see stories where someone is accepted for who they are.The same as anyone else would be accepted for who they are. So yeah, I love that kind of thing. I think that we need more. Stories where larger people are, especially women. 'cause you, we've seen it for a while now, where you might have a man who's larger on TV and a wife who is smaller.She has to look perfect. And, and I say that by, today's beauty standards, he doesn't. He doesn't. And so I, I want, I wanna see more of it the other way. something that really hit me a few years ago was Lizzo just did a, a video where she was showing people her workout routine and.I loved it. She was just saying, oh yeah. So then I, you know, I, go on [00:44:00] this and I can remember what she was doing. Like I was treadmill for a few minutes and I do this, and I, she was like, ah, just like, oh, like working out. Gotta look after my body, you know? And Lizzo is a larger person. And I was like, there we go.That was, , I mean, people were not kind about it because of course the internet, they were not kind. But I really appreciated that as somebody who is larger and works out. And my goal is not to be thin. My goal is just the benefits, the many benefits that exercise provides me. So that, that was nice.That was nice. Yeah.Lara: So that's what I think, right? Part of it is society needs to show us people and show us people like us that are just being people, right? It's not like a story. They're just being people. That's part of the change that I hope keeps happening, and as we keep thinking about ourselves, it's partially allowing ourselves to be okay with who we are without having to change. It's partially asking ourselves, do I feel this [00:45:00] way or have I been taught to feel this way? It's partially. Accepting that some people will find you attractive and some people won't. Just like, some people are gonna like you and some people won't.Like all of these things are true. And so for me, you know, I still have internalized fat phobia. I still struggle with how I look. I also have. Accepted things and changed my view on a lot of things. It's like a work in progress, and what I hope this conversation does for people is helps them see, maybe it's about themselves, maybe it's about somebody else, but it helps them see how there's so much more at play than maybe what they thought, and that there is room for allowing yourself to let go of some of the shame and some of the.Societal expectations that really don't belong to you.Rowan: You're gonna be , the wise old man on the hill of this podcast because I'll be like, let me tell you this story. [00:46:00] Here's a story and go off on a rant. Then you just bring it home and you're like, and here my children is what we should. It's great.I love it. I love it. I'm just coming to you for advice, always from now on. That's it.Lara: That's good. And then everybody can listen in 'cause we're probably gonna do it on the podcast.Rowan: You know? We are. You know, we are. Oh my goodness. This has been a really good conversation, but I do want to wrap it up with one thing.That is , I, I like to end everything with a bit of joy, a little nugget of joy. What about your body and you as a person brings you joy?Lara: He's putting me on the spot. What do I enjoy? And it's, it's hard for me not to be like, I've always really liked the color of my eyes,Rowan: but that's okay.You can sayLara: that. Yeah. And I, I mean, my hair is pretty good.Rowan: You [00:47:00] have great hair.Lara: Thank you.Rowan: Yeah. Yeah.Lara: And even just realizing that my hair is pretty good and enjoying it has been something I've, started accepting right lately. 'cause it to me, no matter what, nothing could really be great about my body for a really long time.Like it was always forced and now I'm just like, yeah. I like it other than my eyes. My eyes have always been good. And I think it's because when I was like five or six years old and right from the start when I used to have like your school photos taken, the photographers always would mention my eyes. So I've always hold onto that.But like saying you have a nice color of eyes is a really like, don't look at me. I have a tiny, tiny little thing. That's okay. And so, you know, I think. It's still a work in progress. So I'm gonna ask you to answer the same question.Rowan: Oh, yeah. I I, it was fine to throw you on the spot now. Yeah. Way to turn it around.No, I, you know, my body has been through a lot. [00:48:00] It's, you know, it has been through the ringer, including giving birth three times. I've had three major surgeries. I was hit by a car when I was a, teenager. That's a whole story in itself. I mean, there are so many things have happened and I live in Toronto now and almost every day I walk somewhere.It's a very walkable city and I am so grateful to my body. I. That it carries me to all these beautiful new places. That is what I love the most. I love getting out in the sunshine. I love interacting with people. I love just the ability to get out into the world , and see and experience things, and my body takes me there.We have been through so much together, my body and I and It brings me joy that I can now, finally. Start to appreciate it in the way that it deserves. ILara: love it. I love it. I think this has been a good conversation. I [00:49:00] hope other people take away nuggets and pieces that help them understand themselves or understand other people a little bit better, or them notice things a little bit differently and that, to me is what I hope most people take away from this.I'm sure that fatness and bodies is gonna come up again on this podcast because it could be every episode. There's so much to dig into. But I think it was a really good topic just to sort of start talking and unboxing how people feel about their bodies.Rowan: Just be gentle with yourselves. Take a breath.Remember that you don't owe anybody anything. When it comes to your body, it's your body. It's your body, and I hope you find your joy in it. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you.Lara: Thank you for listening to unboxing it with Lara and Rowan. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe. Come and find [email protected] and [00:50:00] tell a friend. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe