Intuitive Style

I am so delighted to share this week’s episode with the iconic Anna Newton of the Wardrobe Edit. Anna is THE blueprint for a writing & sharing about style online, and I truly enjoyed chatting with her. Recording this episode was the highlight of my month. I truly hope you enjoy as much as I did.TranscriptMaureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Anna Newton, OG content creator, published author, YouTuber, and the creative mind behind The Wardrobe Edit on Substack. Anna, welcome to the show!Anna: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. We were just saying I haven’t recorded a podcast for the longest time, and I don’t think I’ve ever done one on fashion. Maureen: Today is the day to get it started. There are some amazing shows about fashion, so I hope to see you on some more of them if you want to.So I did want to just say before we get into it that I’ve been following you long enough that I wore the Giorgio Armani Luminous Silk on my wedding day, per your recommendation.Anna: And did you love it?Maureen: Yeah, I had been wearing it for a while, and I actually got my makeup professionally done. My makeup artist tried to color match me and she was like, “This Giorgio Armani that you have is a better color match and better than what I was making custom.” And I was like, okay!Anna: Okay. It’s the best. I wore it on my wedding day too. That foundation is such an OG. It’s been in my makeup collection for years. They’ve reformulated it. I don’t know if it’s a worldwide thing, but in the EU they’re bringing out some really strict regulations around certain ingredients, so we’re getting a lot of foundation reformulations, which is kind of exciting. Aside from this, I’d say foundation is my second most exciting pursuit in life. Maureen: Just wanted you to know that your recommendations are solid.Anna: I love that.Maureen: One of the recent series that you’ve been doing that I’ve loved is where you’re working with different personal stylists. Can you share a little backstory on the series and how it’s been?Anna: Oh my gosh, that has been so fun. So last January, I did a kind of “shop your wardrobe” series. A lot of people do a no-buy in January, and I was like, how can I create content that sits with that and is still fun and exciting and encouraging people to wear what we already have and just have a month of experimenting in a way? Last year I did do a session with Allison Bornstein. I’ve done a few sessions with her over the years and just loved every single one. I think it’s quite a scary thing to work with a stylist. It feels quite vulnerable. It’s quite personal, having a meeting with someone you’ve never met before and going into your wardrobe. So I’ve really enjoyed doing those over the years to show people that it’s not a scary thing. It’s not something you have to do when you’re in complete dire straits with your wardrobe. I think that’s a common misconception, that you only work with a stylist because you’re out of ideas and feeling in a really bad place with your style. It can definitely help with that, but even if you’re in a good place with your style, it’s still valuable. Personally for me, a lot of my friends in my real life are busy, they have kids. Maybe they care about what they wear, but it’s not something they’re writing an online newsletter about. It’s been really fun to work with stylists in almost having a super stylish friend give you great ideas, come up with new ways to wear old pieces, give you little styling tips and tricks. I thought for this year I would build on that. I already had a session booked in with Allison Bornstein and I was like, how about booking with Reva Luft? What about Anna Baldwin? What about Kelly Klein? What about Angie Uh? It just kind of snowballed from there, and before I knew it my whole January calendar was full with stylist appointments with these people who I’ve mostly connected with on Substack. I enjoy their content from a reader’s perspective, so it felt really special to be able to work with them on that series. I’m a fangirl of these people, and I got to work with them and showcase their talent. Ultimately I came away with well over 150 new outfit ideas. It’s crazy. My phone is just full of outfits that I can wear. I got to share that with my readers and show them that having a styling session is a really fun thing you can do. You’re supporting independent women who have created their own stylist businesses, and there were so many ideas. Every single one was different. I didn’t go into each one with a specific spin in my head of who would help me with what, but it was really fun that I have the same wardrobe and each person brought a bit of their own personality and ideas to the table. It was really fun in the hour sessions that we had. By the end of it, I was always writing them before I went to bed. Because of the time difference, I was normally doing them at like 5 p.m., eating my dinner, and then desperate to sit on my laptop and write the post. The post was in me and I needed to get it out. It was really fun to find the different angles with different people and how they all brought something completely unique to the table.Maureen: Yeah, it’s been such a fun series. I’ve been lucky enough to work with both Allison and Angie myself, and I’ve had different stylists on the podcast. I couldn’t agree more as far as the value you can get from working with a stylist, especially in a short-term way where it’s a one-off session and you’re just styling in your closet together. I think it’s so helpful to get out of your own head of what you might do and try out things you might not have tried before. Your series is obviously great because you put in so many photos, which is so helpful because we get to see how everything comes together. I know I was inspired by how you were styling a flannel shirt. I lived in Seattle, so it has a very specific meaning to it. Seeing you wear a flannel shirt in a totally different way, I was like, okay, you can give new life and new stories to garments. I thought that was particularly fun.Anna: The flannel shirt was an interesting one because I think every single stylist gravitated toward it and used it in an outfit somewhere.Maureen: Really?Anna: Yeah, I’m pretty sure in every single session we ended up using it, but everyone used it in a slightly different way. Kelly did this trick where we tied it around the waist. Allison did a trick of wearing it open and using it as a sandwich layer between a white shirt or white T-shirt and a leather jacket. In every single one it was funny to see the same pieces styled in different ways. It’s almost like my true personal style is an amalgamation of all of those looks that everybody made. You could almost take pictures from each of the sessions and know which person did which. I think that’s fascinating when you’ve all got the same base material.Maureen: I’m curious, have you felt different getting dressed since doing the series?Anna: I’ve just written a post on this. It’s going to be out next week because I was like, I should hope so. Five hours with some of the best in the business, and we overran quite often, so it was more than five hours in a huge way. I think it’s actually shifted more than I thought it would. I thought I’d just do these sessions and then have a roundup post at the end and be like, here are the 10 tricks that I’ve employed since. But it isn’t so much the styling tricks that I learned, although there are definitely things I’ve put into practice. It’s been a bigger shift in terms of what I have in my wardrobe and how precious I feel about it. That’s maybe not the right way to say it, but in my session with Reva Luft she said, “Your wardrobe is precious real estate. If things are in there, they deserve their place.” I ended up doing this massive wardrobe cull out of nowhere. One day after one of the sessions, I was like, right, I’m not wearing this. I’ve got this because I feel like I need to fulfill this category rather than actually using it and wearing it. It’s taking up space. So I got rid of almost 20% of my wardrobe. It sounds very extreme, but there were a lot of things that needed trimming out. It’s left me with fewer things, but things that are all fitting together more easily. It’s tricky to explain. I had this post in me that I was desperately trying to get out because I needed to put it into words. It’s been a different shift to what I thought would happen.Maureen: When you say that you culled 20%, I hear clarity in your voice. Were there specific pieces that you knew you wanted to cull? Or did you feel friction with those specific items during the sessions? How did that go?Anna: Yeah, I think they fell into a few categories. There was a category of things that just didn’t fit. I was like, but they’re vintage Levi’s and we love vintage Levi’s. And then I thought, if I’m saving them for days where I’m really feeling myself, that is not happening. I’ve got so many jeans, but I do love what I actually wear. Again, it’s taking up space and creating that decision fatigue around too many options. I’d rather just have the options that I like and that fit. Then there were things that I kept coming back to as problem pieces. I had a pair of burgundy cords, and in every single styling session I’d always be like, how do I style this? Then I was like, oh my gosh, it’s taking up a lot of space and a lot of time. I’m using time in these sessions to try to find answers to these burgundy cords, which when I checked my index stats, I think I had worn maybe three times in the last two years. I just thought, this is so silly. It’s obviously not a piece that’s working for me. There’s friction there. Take it out of the equation. In the past, I’ve been quite hasty and just boom, put it on Vinted or Vestiaire and gotten rid of it. Whereas now all this stuff is sitting upstairs, and I’m moving things in and out a bit slower than I’m used to. A few things have trickled back in. But I almost knew in my head which pieces had to go.Maureen: I wrote a piece a year ago that sounds exactly like what you’re saying, the distraction of the wrong thing. If you have a garment that you have to force or really think about, it takes away the fun of putting together an outfit when you have to work really hard at it. I think Angie talks about this a lot too. She probably has a different word for it, but she wants everything in your closet to be seamless. If it’s really hard to style, aside from whether it fits you, it’s just not fun. It’s heaviness and it takes away the joy that I think everyone in this space is looking to achieve.Anna: And I think there’s almost the misconception of, well, then you’ve stripped it back and you’ve got no personality pieces and no fun pieces. But I do have fun pieces in my wardrobe that I actually find quite easy to style and easy to wear. So I think it was showing me that I’d rather be wearing those and almost going back to basics in a way, feeling really good, feeling like my outfits are clicking and coming together, rather than grabbing something and going, I don’t like how that fits, or I only ever wear that with a black top and I’ve got no other ideas. So I think clarity was a big lesson that came out of having five-plus hours with professional stylists.Maureen: That’s awesome. This is kind of an off-the-cuff question, but one thing I continue to struggle with is that I’m still buying the wrong things sometimes. I’m trying really hard to buy the right things and pay attention to how I feel in my clothes and make sure they feel effortless and go with things. Then I look back and I’m like, what was I thinking? Do you feel that’s inevitable?Anna: Yes, I do. I think we’re all so hard on ourselves with this. Even the people who are the best in the business, even Allison Bornstein would stand there and say, I’ve bought some really messed-up things that did not work in my wardrobe, that did not look good, that did not fit. For me, and this is really lazy, but something arrives and I think, it’s okay. It’s fine. If I breathe in, if I wear it with these shoes. From doing these sessions with everybody, it’s made me be a better shopper, which definitely wasn’t the point. It was called Shop Your Wardrobe Month. I wasn’t meant to go out and buy lots of new things. I did end up buying a few new things.And I think it made me order the jeans in three different sizes. Even this jumper I ordered, I was like, the sleeves are a little bit short on it, is that right? So I ordered the next size up, and then that lost the fit around the body. Then I realized I wanted to keep the original size. It’s made me much more conscientious. It’s given me discernment around the fact that sometimes you just need to make the return. You need to get up and make the return instead of letting it sit there. And you need to try things in different sizes. That was a big thing for me, that “oh, that’ll do” mentality. Not realizing that actually one size up in that denim would give me a bit more comfort and bagginess, which is what I was looking for. That’s been a big learn for me. I know Allison and Reva are both big on the “make three outfits” rule. Reva, in our session, was like, “Do you make three outfits with new items?” In my head I was like, no. She said, “You need to be doing them in your wardrobe.” She’s right. I’ve done that with every parcel that’s come in. If I haven’t had time, I leave it to the side until I can do that kind of styling session myself. That has definitely helped. I’m saying this while the pieces are fresh in my wardrobe and I’m really excited to wear them, but I do think it’s inevitable. There are things you can do as insurance, but inevitably we’re going to make some not-great purchases sometimes.Maureen: I don’t know if you ever do this, but sometimes I’ll have a new item and I’ll try it on with different outfits and I won’t like the outfits, and I keep the item anyway. I’ll put together an outfit and think, I’m supposed to like this. It technically works, but it doesn’t feel good. And I’m like, well, it’s staying.Anna: I have so done that. Or shoes not fitting. It’s always shoes. Or a pair of shoes that are so uncomfortable, but you’re like, if I just walk 10,000 steps in them they’re going to break in. No, they’re going to make your feet bleed. There’s going to be actual blood in the back that you’re trying to get out before you put them on Vinted. It’s just no.Maureen: Well, all that being said, when I think of your career, you’ve worked with some huge brands, which from my perspective looks like a lot of options as far as what kinds of clothes you can bring into your closet. I’m curious, how do you stay consistent to yourself and your vision for how you want to dress when you have so many options? It feels like it would be even more difficult. How do you know when something is in your wheelhouse versus maybe not?Anna: That is such a good question. I do donate a lot. I have this with beauty as well. I have one face. I am one human. I’m a single person. Through doing Indyx, I’ve worked out that when my wardrobe starts to go over 200 pieces, which for some people might seem tiny and for others might seem huge, I start getting really overwhelmed and I hate what I’m wearing and I hate my style. So I’m very careful about what gets added to the daily rotation. I’m really lucky that quite often with the brands I work with, it’s a bit of a “you do you” situation. I don’t work with people who are like, you have to wear this top with this dress. That doesn’t work for me. I’m lucky to be at a place where I get a free pick of things. Whenever I’ve worked with Net-A-Porter, it’s literally pick off the website. I actually loan a lot of stuff from brands as well. Quite often it’s not necessarily things coming permanently into my wardrobe. It’s things I get to play with. To me, the ultimate is getting to work with a brand like Net-A-Porter where I loan items. Sometimes it’s really sad because they get sent back. Or I try things and then I’m like, oh God, now I need to buy this. It’s not as clean cut as that. But loaning is a really good way for me to play around with items. The brand is happy because it’s new-in-stock items I’m showing, but the ideal for me is when I get to incorporate them with what I already have. That’s ultimate.Maureen: And you do that very, very well.Anna: Thank you. That to me is ultimate because it’s authentic. I say to brands, we’re not wearing head-to-toe one brand. We’re mixing it with vintage, with secondhand, with a pair of jeans we’ve had for the last five years. That’s always the aim, to show people how these new pieces work with what I’ve already got and what you’ve already got, rather than head-to-toe looks. I think brands are realizing that’s the most authentic way to blend in these items instead of everything being brand new and pristine. It looks very clean, but ultimately people want to see the real-life application of things.Maureen: As a viewer and reader for so long, I’m very active in the personal style space, and I’ll see creators go to fashion week and every day they’re wearing a head-to-toe look. All the looks are fabulous, but none of the pieces are interchanged from day to day. Every single day it’s totally new items. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve become more jaded to that. Anyone can make seven incredible outfits with brand-new pieces seven days in a row. It’s so much more interesting to see how people make use of what they already have, style it in different ways. It’s harder.Anna: It’s harder. I think people love a capsule as well. That was so hot back in the day. I definitely fell down that rabbit hole. But it is more exciting to see that real-life remixing. I think that’s also why Substack does really well. A lot of people on Substack have jobs in marketing, they’re stay-at-home moms, they’re coming from all different walks of life, and they’re just showing what they genuinely wear every day. Not at a fashion show. They’re showing what they wear to drop their kids off, what they wear on their commute to work. That’s where Substack is a really fun place to play around with personal style. There are so many people. I follow well over 100 Substacks, and whenever I look at my inbox and think there are so many, I can’t edit them down because I genuinely love reading them once a week. That’s why it’s such a fun place to engage with personal style content, because people are just living their everyday lives and documenting what they actually wear. That’s what we want to see. That’s always at the crux of what I want to do. I never want to put on an outfit and not wear it out because that’s not really an outfit. That’s a work-from-home look, which is also fun to share. But I really want to be sharing those everyday, realistic outfits. I’ve got my sweats on right now. I snapped a little picture before this. It’ll be in my post on Sunday.Maureen: I took a picture too. I was like, I need to document what I wore to talk to Anna.Anna: I love that. That’s what we do, right?Maureen: So, I just feel like you’re so articulate in this space. I wanted to hear your take on the idea of intuitive dressing. When you hear the word intuitive, what does that mean to you and how does that show up in your life, if at all?Anna: I actually love this phrase. I know this is kind of your spiel, and I love it. I think it’s such an interesting phrase because everyone’s answer will be different. For me, and this has been the biggest shift in the last four years, probably since I had my son, it’s practicality. Intuitive dressing is dressing from a place that is very functional, but you also love your outfit at the same time. It’s marrying those two things together: practicality and functionality, but also feeling absolutely fantastic in it. I think sometimes people assume that if you have one, you can’t have the other. And I’m like, no, you can have both. Whenever I feel like I’m not dressing intuitively, or I’m not feeling my outfit, or it doesn’t feel authentic to me, maybe I’ve gone a bit too trendy, it always boils down to me also feeling uncomfortable in those outfits. Things are too tight. I love how fit comes up all the time for me. I’m like, girl just needs to buy jeans that fit.Maureen: Same.Anna: But I think it’s that something’s too tight or scratchy. Like you said, when you keep those things that deep down you know are a bad purchase but you keep them anyway. I do the same. A collar scratches or I don’t like how everything’s bunching up. It’s quite sensory for me. I really need to be comfortable in my clothing. I want it to be practical, but I also want there to be a bit of fun. Sometimes that’s what my style has been missing over the years. It’s the leopard print jacket, the vintage cuff, putting on some rings. Finding ways to add personality. That’s the bit that makes me feel cute while also wearing my rain boots. That’s the part that feels functional.Maureen: I have a theory and I’d love your take. I feel like in the 2010s, for us millennials, we’ve had to do a lot of unlearning, especially around the trends that were popular when we were coming of age. When I was in high school and college, comfort was not a priority at all. Your pants needed to be as skinny as possible. Practicality was not a priority. It was almost a bad thing. You should be wearing heels. I wore heeled boots to my college classes, walking everywhere. Practicality being important is something we’ve had to teach ourselves and give ourselves permission for. It wasn’t a mindset that was present. That’s why it feels radical and difficult for me. When I look at my mood board, all the shoes are super dainty. I want to give myself permission to choose less dainty shoes, but I still don’t quite have that mindset. I’m curious about your take on that.Anna: Absolutely. That’s such an interesting take because I had the exact same thing. My first office job was in London. I don’t live in London, so I had over an hour on the train and a 20-minute walk at the other end. And I was still doing that in exactly what you’re talking about, a heeled boot. I would never do that now. My toe boots are comfortable, but not for that every day. You’re right. It was sort of hammered into us. I would never have thought about comfort, function, practicality. It almost felt like a dirty word. Maybe it’s an age thing. My life now is very different. But there is a big amount of unlearning.I think it also comes from where we get inspiration, like Pinterest. It’s very city. Very London, New York, Paris. It’s quite posed. “That’s actually why I love Substack so much. I do so much of my screen-grabbing now from Substack because I live in suburbia. The other day I went down the road in my pony hair leopard print jacket and my neighbors were like, ‘Where are you going dressed like that?’” - Anna Newton for Intuitive StyleSo it’s about marrying that aspirational version with your real-life environment. Pinterest can be tricky for that. Substack has massively helped me marry those two parts together.Maureen: You’re making such a good point. Where we get our influences is directly forming our conception of what style is. If we’re consistently focusing on inspiration that’s impractical or purely aesthetic without relating to our real life, that impacts what we feel we should be wearing.Anna: Absolutely. For the longest time I was looking at London girls holding little coffee cups. You know exactly what my Pinterest board looked like. But that isn’t my life. Having my son made me switch that. I can’t rock up to a soft play — which is basically an indoor play center with cushioned everything — in a blazer coat, tiny bag, and high-heeled boots. I wouldn’t feel comfortable in that environment. What’s really helped me is finding style inspirations grounded in the reality I’m living. That’s helped me refine where I’m at with my personal style.Maureen: I appreciate that. I need to work on that. My mood board is moving toward practicality, but it could use more sneakers.Anna: Add a few more flat boots in.Maureen: Exactly. So I think we’ve touched on this a little bit, but I’d love to hear more about how you decide what to buy and what not to buy, especially in the context of those styling sessions where you mentioned you purchased a couple of things.Anna: It was quite ironic that I was doing these sessions as part of Shop Your Wardrobe Month and then I bought about ten things. My husband was like, “Anna, the UPS guy is here again.” I almost needed to buy a lot of things to get it out of my system. I saw a TikTok the other day that said wish lists are good, but they can give a piece a lot of power. You romanticize it. Out of nowhere I decided I needed a pair of Dries Van Noten colored trousers. I found some in the sale, bought them, returned them all, and now I no longer feel the need to buy them. I know that’s wasteful. If I lived in London, I’d go try them on in store. But sometimes you romanticize something and then you try it and realize it’s not what you need.The most successful purchases I kept were actually from my session with Reva. I keep talking about it because it genuinely felt like the styling session that changed my brain chemistry. We hadn’t worked together before, which made it fun. She’s also a mom of three and lives in Canada, so there was lifestyle overlap. Off the back of our session, she sent me a screenshot and said, “I think these things could be helpful for you.” One was a grey jumper. She said, “You love wearing your grey knit, but your cashmere knit is a slightly different vibe.” When I had my session with Allison, she agreed — it was sportier and more relaxed. I have worn this jumper so much. I was just thinking it needs to go in the wash after this session. So that was a good purchase. But like Reva said, I tried it on with so many things when it came. I also ordered lots of different versions to compare.I ordered the one from The Great. I didn’t order the Donni one because Donni’s now really expensive to get in the UK. They’ve upped the shipping and the imports and everything. I looked at that, I looked at the Still Here one, I shopped around until I was like, no, I think this is the one. So I definitely feel like I put a lot more research in rather than just, oh, I’ve seen that on someone, click. I really went digging for these. She also suggested a pair of black, kind of crepey trousers. I’ve got black linen trousers and I’ve also got a really nice pair of more dressy trousers, but I wouldn’t really wear them every day. They’re kind of a dressy pair for me. And she was like, the Rogala pants. I was like, oh, you need the Rogala pants. I have never tried the Rogala pants. They’re a thousand pounds. I was like, I just can’t ever do that. But she suggested the Donnie crepe simple pants or something. I ordered them in two different sizes and I’ve returned them. They are not for me. You’re doing a quick Google of them now. They’re just like a loose fitting black crepe trouser, a bit more all-season. I’ve obviously got a linen wide-leg pair which is very summery, but I just didn’t like them. I took her suggestion on, I tried a few different styles, and I think that sort of black trouser makes me feel like I’m back at school. There’s something about it that feels a bit school-uniform-y for me. I tried them in different sizes and I just couldn’t make them work. That’s an example of something where I was like, someone has recommended this, it’s a bit of a gap, but actually maybe that’s a gap that can just be a gap. I don’t think I need to fill it. I’ve got other things I can wear. What else did she suggest? Oh, she suggested rain boots. I live in the UK. It rains. It’s literally rained for about a month straight at this point. It’s thoroughly depressing. The weather is awful. She said, cool, what shoes are you wearing to the park when it’s rained? I was like, my Converse? She was quite tough love about it, but in a kind way. She was just like, that is madness. How do you not have a pair of rain boots? She suggested some, the Solomons. She’s also got a snow clog thing. It doesn’t snow that often here, but again, I researched, had a look around, and then I found this brand called Tretorn, based in Stockholm. They’re 100% waterproof. They’re perfect. I’ve worn them so often since. When I went for lunch with my friends on Saturday, both of them bought them by the end of our lunch. It’s things like that. She really helped me with practical holes in my wardrobe. None of those things are particularly sexy to buy. You wouldn’t be like, buying rain boots is a real game changer. But it has actually made my life easier. I know that sounds dramatic, but I wore them to Pilates this morning at the crack of dawn. I just slipped them on, then after Pilates slipped them on and walked out. It’s those tiny purchases that actually make your life easier. I needed her to say that to me. That’s not a hole I could find myself. So yeah, there have been a few things that I’ve bought and really loved, and then a few things I’ve tried and thought maybe that doesn’t work for me.Maureen: Do you have any sense of what was preventing you from having rain boots before, or was it just out of sight, out of mind?Anna: I think I thought they were ugly. I just thought they’re not for me. They almost felt too practical. I was like, I don’t know if I want to go there. I’ve got my Converse, it’s fine. I can put my Converse in the wash. It’s not a problem. I can wipe them down. But it’s about finding the right ones for you as well. Again, I played around with size. I ended up sizing down because my normal size were a bit too big and they looked a bit clumpy. And doing the stylist-approved thing of trying them on with multiple outfits really helped. I put them on and might have been unsure, but I actually like them best with black denim. My go-to is usually a blue wash of denim, but they can look a bit bulbous with that. They almost need something black to dull them down, to quieten them a bit. I’ve worn them so much. Everyone’s like, oh my God, Anna is wearing rain boots. I’m like, I know, check me out.Maureen: Even the idea of styling them with black pants makes sense for your style with clean lines and seamlessness. That makes sense. I imagine with blue denim they’d look very 2017. I feel like that was the moment. Maybe we’re just in a different place now. I could share one example from working with Angie. We talked a lot and she was like, I think you would like a black turtleneck. Similar to you, I tried it on with all the outfits and I was like, am I doing something wrong? And she’s like, no, your styling is great. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it. What I ended up doing was going into the Intimissimi store near me and I bought one in burgundy. It has a little silver shimmer to it. I don’t normally like shiny things, but I put it with all the same outfits and I loved it. It just had to be burgundy instead of black. So I think you can take the advice of a stylist and then run with it. They’re just giving you something to start with. It’s not rules. It’s just, hey, have you tried this?Anna: Everything I ended up buying wasn’t actually the thing Reva had said. She had sent over specific models of things and I didn’t end up buying any of those. And that’s not to diss on Reva.Maureen: No, not at all. It’s totally what you said. You need to find what’s right for you. Anna: Obviously you’re not a black turtleneck girl, but you’re a burgundy one apparently.Maureen: There you go. I wear it all the time. I love that. So thank you, Angie. Anna: We love you, Angie. Maureen: I feel like working with stylists is so cool, the melding of the minds. I don’t want to be too radical, but what we’ve been talking about with practicality and making that a priority, I think that’s huge. I think that’s one of the reasons you’re so popular and successful with what you’re doing. I think women want permission to wear things that actually suit their lifestyle and are cool, but not this Instagram aesthetic perfection. Something that doesn’t get in the way of life. I think you do that really well. You’re always talking about how you’re wearing it and why you’re wearing it. It seems like you don’t let style get in the way of living fully.Anna: I love that. Thank you. I think what I’ve realized through doing this for so long, I started off doing beauty and then had little moments with all sorts of things. Organizing, food, organization, lots of different things over the years. Cookies. I’m more than happy to be known as Cookianna. I’ll take that. Maureen: Do you still drink Squash?Anna: I drink Squash constantly. I’ve got it in now. The Squash is me. I am Squash. Cut me open, I am Squash at this point. So I’ve had a lot of different things over the years, but obviously settled on fashion. And I think maybe even five years ago, so not really that long ago, it was very much like, right, okay, let’s get some outfits together, let’s go meet a professional photographer, let’s take some pictures, do an outfit change. It felt like the fashion content that went down really well and that everyone really wanted was quite curated, very aesthetic, very polished, taken on a big camera with a massive lens, that kind of look. And now that’s really not the case. Everyone loves the little outfit selfie in the mirror that everyone can take. Anyone can do one of those, or just a picture downstairs in my kitchen. Quite often, I was out this weekend at a train thing. I am a train wife. My husband loves trains, my kid loves trains, I am around trains constantly. I was like, oh my gosh, have you been to the Bluebell Railway, which is our local heritage railway? I’m like, honey, I go there all the time. You want to find me? I’m there. But I was there and I just gave my phone to my husband and said, can you just take a quick picture? We were outside the men’s toilets. It was not aesthetically pleasing, but it was an outfit. I wanted a picture of the outfit in the moment as I was wearing it. And that’s what I like to see on other people’s Substacks and Instagrams. I think there’s been a real shift industry-wide. That just feels like what we like now. We want an outfit selfie. We want to see it in real life, situated in real life, rather than very posed aesthetic shoots. I just don’t really do stuff like that anymore because that’s not what I enjoy watching. It’s not what I enjoy doing. For someone who does what I do, I’m like, can you not take my picture? I hate having my picture taken.Maureen: That’s so funny. I would never have guessed.Anna: Yeah, it’s really not for me. I’m like, right, we’re done. I always make it the quickest thing ever.Maureen: That makes me feel better. I hate having my picture taken.Anna: Do people like having their picture taken? Maybe some people.Maureen: I think a select number of people who have been professionally trained to do it well.Anna: True. Yeah, true. And that is not me. And that’s okay. But it is interesting that it feels like there’s been a shift in the way it’s been shot and packaged, and also in the way that we live our lives in style as well. I think we’re moving away from that polishedness, both in the way the reader consumes it and the way people create content. Maureen: I think I’ve made it extremely clear I do follow you and I’m aware of what you do, but I wasn’t expecting my takeaway from this call to be so clearly continuing to work on melding my personal style with the practicality of my life. I still think I need to work on that. Being in California, I live a very active lifestyle. I’m outside a lot, we’re going on walks. How can I maybe elevate that part of my style a little bit more or mix things a little bit more? I think that’ll be a good direction.Anna: We need the post of that. We need a follow-up. We need to see it.Maureen: Yeah, I should do that. I have to style it first. But giving ourselves permission to care about aesthetics without them preventing us from living the life we want to live is powerful. And also just feeling comfortable in every environment that you’re in as well.Anna: I think when I first became a mom, I was so focused on blending in. All the moms were doing chunky trainers, so I was like, I need some chunky trainers. I went down a slightly sportier path because I thought that’s what new moms do and that’s what I need to be doing. It’s about finding a way of still being you in those environments that you find yourself in often, without feeling the need to adhere to everybody else. You do want to feel comfortable, but it’s like how do you work out your style code for that environment rather than feeling like you need to fit in or blend in? None of my friends are super fashion-y, so I never want to go around my friend’s house in something they’re going to be like, oh, you’re tying a silk scarf around your waist. They’d be like, what are you doing? But is there a way I could maybe tie it around my neck and it would feel more me but still comfortable? It’s finding ways to be in environments where you feel comfortable and like you’re expressing yourself.Maureen: I’m smiling because this is the reason I started the show and my blog. My ever-present desire to do what everyone else is doing and trying to fight against that, understanding there’s a very social, biological reason we want to dress like other people, but also acknowledging there are limits to that and we can feel suffocated or disconnected from ourselves when we go too far down that rabbit hole. It’s nice to hear that you struggle with that sometimes too.Anna: I think everyone does, especially when you go through a big life change or you move or have a career change. Something happens and you have to relearn yourself and relearn how your style fits into that. That happens to everybody multiple times in their lives. It’s not like once you’ve figured it out, you never have to figure it out again. That’s not the case. But it does feel good when it clicks into place. When you start a new job and think, this is the kind of outfit I want to wear to this job. Or when I’m at the park and I’ve got my new rain boots on and I’m layered up with my Uniqlo Pufftech jacket actually keeping me warm, I’m like, oh, I feel good right now.Maureen: I have a question about the Pufftech. I’ve always wondered about this. When you get to your destination, if you’re indoors, do you take the puff off and put it in your bag?Anna: Yeah, and it’s a real conversation piece. You take it off and people go, oh, is that from Uniqlo? It is. It is from Uniqlo. I wore it to London the other day and I actually ended up getting quite hot. It comes with a little bag, but I hadn’t brought the bag with me. It’s so small, I literally just rolled it in my hands into a ball and put it in my bag. I think I might even have put it in my pocket.Maureen: The reason I ask is where I live, that is the outerwear because it’s warmer here. To me, that’s not my outerwear of choice. I would think of it more as innerwear. I was just curious what your take on that was.Anna: I would personally whip it off. My husband would rock it and look great, that’s totally his vibe. I would personally take it off. But it is quite funny when you take it off. You’re just like an onion shedding your layers. You’ve got so many layers on.Maureen: I could have used that back in college when I had this paper-thin black trench coat that I wore for an hour bus ride and then a 15-minute walk to a job interview. I’m freezing cold and I’m like, cutting us to Puffetech.Anna: I think it’s something we have to learn. My mom is now so happy that I’m wearing practical clothes because for years she was like, you’re cold. You’re cold. And I’d say, no, I’m not cold. I was freezing. Now I finally have some thick layers in my wardrobe.Maureen: Well, I’m happy to hear that. We can grow in all sorts of different ways. I’ll just finish up with this. We all turn to you for advice, but what advice would you give to someone who is trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Anna: I feel like I’m going to be a broken record and repeat myself because this has been a common topic of everything we’ve spoken about today. We all sometimes need to search for inspiration. Everyone, even the top stylists in the world, are finding inspiration in different places from different platforms. But when you’re looking for it, try to find inspiration that naturally fits somewhere within your lifestyle. For me, I’m looking for work-from-home outfits. I’m looking for more practical outfits for pickup, drop-off, those casual errand moments. I’m not looking at party wear. I’m not looking at super chic London style. I go to London maybe once a week or once every two weeks. It’s not something happening on repeat for me. So trying to search out inspiration that feels realistic for you is a really good starting point. Otherwise you’re going to end up with a mood board that doesn’t align with your lifestyle at all. Or maybe you do find things that don’t align with your lifestyle, but you’re looking at the shapes and the colors and different elements rather than thinking you need to recreate that outfit piece by piece. That’s been a big game changer for me. Substack has been a really good place for that because it’s full of real women showing their real outfits that actually work on a daily basis. I save them all in my Indyx collections folder and if I’m ever feeling dry, I’ll have a look through and see how someone’s put that jumper with those jeans and that jacket and think, I’ve got similar pieces that can work in that way. That has been such a game changer because I’m putting outfits on and they work, rather than trying to dress up. I’m actually repeating one of my most-read Substacks, which is why do we keep buying clothes for lives that we don’t have?Maureen: That’s a good post. I’ll link that. Absolutely, if someone somehow missed that one.Anna: Thank you. Yeah, that’s a good one.Maureen: Thanks, Anna. I have a job to do. I’m going to update my Pinterest board. I’ve been working on it, but I’m probably going to call a couple of things out. It’s time. Realistic inspiration has been a real source of cracking my personal style and getting dressed every day in a way that feels relatively easy. Well, this was so fun, which I’m not even remotely surprised by. You’re such a delight. And for how successful you are, you always manage to be very yourself and fun and enjoyable. So thank you for chatting with me and sharing your wisdom and your experience. I just really enjoyed this.Anna: Thank you. That has made my day. Thank you.Maureen: There’s going to be links in there, but where can listeners find you?Anna: You can find me over on Substack at The Wardrobe Edit. I also share quite a lot of style stuff over on Instagram. I have about 16 years’ worth of YouTube archives. If you ever fancy knowing what I looked like at 20, you can go find me there. That’s over at The Anna Edit. I think that’s everything.Maureen: And some great vlogs. Anna: Very, very old vlogs out there if that’s your thing. Maureen: I’ll make sure that’s all linked in the show notes. Thank you so much, Anna!OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This week, I’m delighted to share this interview with stylist extraordinaire, Irene Kim (김애린)! You’ve probably pinned an image of her to your Pinterest board and definitely read one of her incredible posts here on Substack. Enjoy this wide-ranging and personal conversation. We chat about everything from shopping pragmatically, to Korean body culture, to how Irene coaches her clients.Enjoy!TranscriptMaureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is personal stylist, Canadian in Paris, and extremely generous cool girl, Irene Kim (김애린). Irene is an OG in the fashion Substack world with iconic reads starting back in 2023, such as the five questions she asks herself when shopping. Since then, she’s continued to share glimpses into her real life, including how she styles herself for events ranging from glamorous photo shoots at the Musée Rodin to school drop-off. Though through it all, she manages to stay real and aspirational. Irene, welcome to the show.Irene: Thanks so much for having me, Maureen. So lovely to be here and meet you.Maureen: Likewise. So looking through your archive, it’s very clear to me that you are an extremely creative dresser, fearlessly turning lace napkins into a miniskirt or hocking a brooch and a shoelace into a bolo tie, and even layering windbreakers under blazers, which is recent. I love that one. Trying imaginative combinations can be really daunting. Personally, I can feel fear looking silly or too crafty. How do you know when some creative combination that you have matches your taste level?Irene: Oh, that is such a tough question. Because the answer is really, it just feels right. You know, I’ll just know when that’s too much or that’s too slim or that’s too baggy or that’s too much color or the eye’s moving too many places. So if I had to really break it down—and I think I have done that in a Substack—what’s going through is like just the checklist. It’s like an automatic checklist going down. Yeah, that proportion doesn’t work there, or that’s a little too slim there, or like that’s too much nylon and not enough natural fabric. You know what I mean? It just keeps going and going. So it’s sort of, after all this time, has come a bit automatic to me what level is okay. And I actually want to say, because I’m not saying that what I find okay to me is okay—it should be okay for everyone—because there’s people out there whose style I admire that I’m just like, if I put that on, I would be like, this is way, way too much. But it’s so clearly their baseline and they’re so clearly rocking it that I’m like, all power to them. Obviously, their checkpoints are different than mine, right?Maureen: I think one of the things I heard in what you said or your answer is that it’s become automatic, but that doesn’t mean that it was always automatic—this idea of knowing what was your level of comfort or how far to go. Does that feel correct?Irene: Oh, gosh. Would that feel correct? Because I’m trying to bring myself back to when I was like in my teens and I did so much experimenting then. And no, I still think I had it then. I just have different materials now, you know? I think a lot of experimentation was at that time, and even now, is born out of creative drive, yes, but also necessity, right? Because I don’t know what’s going on with kids these days, but when I was younger, like, if I got a shirt from Gap, like that was like Christmas, you know? Like there was nothing fancy about what we were buying. So it was a lot of, you know, I went thrifting and I just put stuff together in all these different ways. And I’ve already lost track of your original question. Has it always been there or has it evolved? I guess it’s refined itself over time. It’s just different than when I was younger, I guess. Because I loved my outfits then too.Maureen: That makes sense because you were still getting dressed back then, presumably. So if we have a calibration of good enough to leave the house, you know what I mean? Irene: Yeah.Maureen: The thesis of this podcast is that we make better style decisions when we listen to our intuition. So what role does intuition play in your life or your personal style?Irene: Right. So I just feel like when I get dressed and I try to look like the people that I admire for their clear appearance, their clear aesthetic, their very clear look, I just never feel right. It just never feels right to me. And ultimately, I go back to kind of the basics that I always love to wear no matter what. And sometimes, you know, I look at some of my everyday outfits because I feel like your everyday outfits are kind of like—that’s the core. Like, you know, that’s who you are in a way. Sometimes I think, oh, you know what? What if I made my everyday outfits a little bit more directional and made it more like this designer or that designer? But that’s just not me. Like every time there is a little… I kind of lean back a little bit into prep, androgyny. That’s always going to have some sort of base in how I dress. So I just can’t move away from that. And there’s no point in trying. I’m always going to go back that way.Maureen: That’s amazing. And I totally get that. I think what I heard from that is we can’t force ourselves to have a personal style that’s different from what we want to wear on our bodies. We can have aesthetic preferences that we like in theory, but we can’t force those to actually work for our everyday life or what we choose to wear. Is that kind of right?Irene: Yeah, no, that’s exactly right and far more articulate than I said it. No, no, nothing like that. No, I mean, I get it. I’m trying to force myself to be this, like, you know—and I don’t mean it to sound so strong—but I was really intrigued by Simone Rocha and super inspired by sheer volume. There are definitely ways that I can still incorporate it, but I had this vision this summer of just totally transforming my style in this totally new direction and wearing more black. And then I go into stores and I try on a black bag with my outfit that I like the rest of, and I’m like, oh, it’s still not me, is it? So I get that, you know?Maureen: The thing is, though, the beauty about clothes is that you can wear that, right? Like per day, a week, whatever.Irene: It reminds me of actually when I started getting a bit more traction on social media and I was thinking like, oh, maybe I should start publishing things that are a bit more polished and produced because mine isn’t at all. And I just thought, you know, how long am I able to keep that up? And I realized I could keep that up for like a week tops. I could do like one polished, produced post and then I’d call it a day because it’s just not me, you know? And so for me to have to put in that mental effort, truly, to dress in a way that’s not comfortable to me day in and day out—apart from your occasional event or your fun dress-up thing—it’s just not going to happen.Maureen: Great analogy. I get it. As a fellow writer, the polished stuff is hard to achieve. One of your early posts about questions to ask yourself when considering making a new purchase, you ask, does the garment take you places in your imagination? So my question to you is, can you think of any garments that you’ve bought that take you somewhere in your imagination?Irene: Oh, I have so many. So many. However, do I wear those every day? No. But I have a lot, yeah, for sure. Just like you were talking about the Simone Rocha piece. Yeah. I love getting dressed. But if I’m going to buy it, I mean, that’s the part of the five questions I ask myself when shopping. There is a love component, of course, to everything. But then, of course, there’s the need component. And then there’s can I actually afford it? There’s like practicalities of actually shopping. So yeah, my whole closet isn’t filled with that. But certainly there’s some there.Maureen: Yeah. What about your purple skirt that’s kind of like—is it sheer? It’s like a lilac—Irene: Oh, the Cecilie Bahnsen skirt? Sure, yeah.Maureen: Yeah. Is it like a piece—I think it’s beautiful—that piece feels like one that would take me somewhere in my imagination. Does it do the same for you?Irene: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you were mentioning Simone—like Simone and Cecilie are very similar in terms of aesthetic, and I love that ethereal vibe. And even though this is how I rock out in the world every day, I can absolutely throw that on with this sweater and it’ll still work, right? And so that’s ways that I can bring that kind of beauty into my life. And there are, again, other people who are able to do that every day. I just can’t. Not practical for my lifestyle.Maureen: So when I think about that skirt, like I’m transported to like a woodland meadow with like dappled sunlight traveling through the treetops. Where does it take you?Irene: So basically my friend who is a photographer, she has photographed me for various things—family things, other things—and she knows like my favorite scene is like carelessly just running through golden fields. That is like freedom to me. I don’t know what it is. It’s just warm. It could even be fall. It could even be misty. But just bouncing through grass, just wide open—that’s like when I think of happiness, that’s what I think of.Maureen: Wow. You know, I can see that skirt doing well in a field.Irene: Right? I’m sure they’ve had plenty of Cecilie photo shoots in fields like that, like really moody fields.Maureen: Incredible. Maybe with some muck boots.Irene: Exactly, exactly.Maureen: We started to talk a little bit about how you decide what to buy and where, with cost and love and need, et cetera. Can you think of any recent purchases that you made, or even broader than that, a little bit more how you decide what not to buy or where?Irene: So I kind of categorize this into two groups just because I am a stylist and I work with like a really large range of people. So there’s people like me who have really mature closets, and I would have different guidelines for me than I would for somebody literally starting from scratch. To have such a high bar for somebody who has no clothes is like just too much extra pressure, I think, on a lot of people. So when people are like, oh, you should be buying secondhand or this costs too much or like no, you should only buy the best you can afford—like people just can’t take it. Like just get them dressed. Like really that’s what they need.Where somebody like me, the bar is really high because I really have everything I need, or most things I need anyway. So yeah, I mean right now it really is—there can’t be a single reason why I don’t want to wear it. Literally, if the thing falls a little funny, it’s just an automatic no. It has to really pass all these tests. Like I have to love the color, I have to love how it feels on my skin, I have to love the cut, I love how it looks on my body. It has to be the right price, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s a high bar for me. For a client that has no clothes in their closet, I’m not going to be like, okay, you cannot buy a single pair of pants until it’s perfect. Like that’s just not sensible.Maureen: That’s very healing for me to hear because last year I had to basically repurchase a lot of my clothes. Not even just last year, but like twice. Anyway, my body changed, and so I had to rebuy my clothes. And man, there is so much pressure in the fashion space—I personally felt like there was so much pressure to buy the right way, the perfect way. And I just needed clothes that I could wear to like… you just need clothes to feel good in. And I just remember feeling so frustrated by this narrative that there’s only one right way to shop. And I just appreciate the way you just delineated like, yes, for a certain subset of people it’s really important and good to have high standards. But if you are in the midst of what is arguably—if you have no clothes to wear—there’s probably something else going on in your life that is already hard. And so trying to put the pressure of doing it perfectly on top of that… yeah, I just appreciate you saying that because I could have heard it a year and a half ago.Irene: Well, I’m telling you now. I think it’s really hard because I really bite my tongue a lot of times when I read things on Substack or social media because people only have like one line to get their point across and to capture people’s attention. So obviously it lacks a lot of nuance. But yeah, I’ve done this for like 15 years and I work with just normal people, right? So I know the huge chasm of life experience. There’s a big spread of what’s going on in people’s lives. I read something the other day and somebody wrote like, who’s buying Aritzia coats when you can buy them on Poshmark for this and this? And I was like, totally respectfully, I get your point, but there’s people who don’t have time to shop, people who don’t know that secondhand is an option, people who know it’s an option but don’t know where to look. There’s people who don’t fit into Aritzia. There’s like a million people who don’t fit into what is on its face a very reasonable thing to say. But underneath it all, it’s quite nuanced.Maureen: Yeah. It can be well-intentioned, but I think sometimes we need to take those things with a grain of salt.Irene: Yeah, for sure.Maureen: You had mentioned when you’re thinking about a new item, if it falls a little bit strangely, that would be a reason that you’re like, okay, there’s no reason I need to buy this. But what about like body awareness or how things fit or the way that different textures lay, things like that? How does the feeling of clothing, rather than necessarily what you see in the mirror, how does the feeling impact what you decide to buy or wear?Irene: A hundred percent now. I mean, I would have let that go 10 years ago. Frankly, I would have let that go like three years ago—no, five. But I can’t take it anymore. If it’s itchy or like there’s a certain type of polyester that just makes my skin crawl, I can’t wear it. I don’t want to. And I can afford to be that picky at this stage, right? Again, if you’re somebody who doesn’t have any clothes in their closet, you might be less picky. But even at that stage and price point, I probably could find you something that feels better on your body than something that you really hate. So yeah.Maureen: And what changed for you going from being willing to put up with it to not?Irene: What changed for me? Let me think. This was like maybe five years ago. Most of the stuff I’m referring to is like, you know, Zara, fast fashion stuff. I didn’t buy a ton of it to begin with, but I just started getting pickier, I guess. And I think when that happens for people, it changes. My client base tends to start at 35. Occasionally I’ll get kids with their parents—teenagers or 20-year-olds—but mostly it’s 35. And in your 20s, that’s when you’re experimenting with stuff. So the top priority isn’t, oh, it feels great. You want the look, you want the style. But I think it’s pretty standard across the board that as you get a bit older, these things start to matter more. No big life change other than that.Maureen: Yeah. I think I started a little young on that. I’ve always been hypersensitive to how clothing feels on my body. And I’ve always questioned like, how do people put up with this? Like I don’t get it. I’m 30 now. I’ve never had the threshold to be able to wear something uncomfortable, but that’s just me.Irene: Do you mean uncomfortable like fabric or uncomfortable like sitting on your body?Maureen: Mostly fabric, because that’s different. Like, okay, yeah, okay. I’m a highly sensitive person. It is my burden to bear, but I get it.What is exciting you in fashion right now or in style?Irene: Oh. You know, it’s funny. I think I may have written that nothing has really excited me in a while. I’m not even old—I’m only 45—but I’ve been around enough to see a lot. I’ve seen like three-ish good decades of fashion and cycles. And so right now, nothing feels super new to me. But that doesn’t mean it’s not exciting. It’s just still fun to get dressed.Irene: Right now, I cannot keep up with the external stimulation and new input because I’m in a new city. It’s like too much. Like I can’t handle it—in a good way. So I’m still trying to process the fact that, okay, I’ve moved to Paris. There’s just so much for me to process and understand. And so that’s what’s exciting me.Maureen: Let’s talk about that. When you go to bed at night, what are you looking forward to in the morning of being able to do in Paris that you weren’t able to do in Canada?Irene: Okay, so not to disappoint, because my friend called me and was like, “Oh my God, your kids get home at five and that still leaves some time for you guys to do some sightseeing.” I’m like, listen, when my kids get home… I mean, no, I’m still living a normal life. I still have a husband and kids who go to school. So I’m still working through the day, trying to get a workout in, and the kids come home and then I’m doing homework and then I’m preparing dinner. So it’s still very much—for anybody who has FOMO—I’m just in a different location.But obviously there is a lot more access to fashion. The people dress differently here. I’m constantly staring at what people are wearing, how people are wearing it, people’s relationship to fashion. Brands that I can’t see at home, I’m trying to discover them here. The huge vintage ecosystem that they have—I can’t stop. Every single day I try to find something new. I’ve only been here since the start of the school year, so that’s like three-ish months. I haven’t even nicked the surface.Maureen: Well, that already just sounds exciting. Just having a whole new playing field to engage with, even if it’s only in slivers of the day.What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Irene: So I usually start people off with a foundational wardrobe, and those are like the core pieces that you reach for every day that you feel good in and you know you can make an outfit with. Because I find a lot of people get all of these incredible pieces or these pieces that they love, but it makes no sense when you try to put it together.And what those pieces are—they’re always going to be, unless you really love dresses—like four or five pants, right? There’s always going to be like 12 to 20 tops. But the shape of those, the color of those, the style of those—that’s where your intuitive style comes in.Again, I’m generalizing because not everyone wears jeans, but let’s say most people wear jeans. Some people will reach for a skinny straight jean all the time. That will be the backbone of the outfit. That will never be me. You will not see a skinny straight jean in my wardrobe. I will always have some sort of barrel pant shape in my wardrobe that I would reach for before that. So that becomes my foundational bottom because I feel good in it. That feels comfortable to me.So when you’re building your foundational wardrobe, when I’m building it with somebody, I really make sure I take a temperature check of how they feel about this piece. Because I’m not going to say, okay, ideally you have bottoms that are sort of different shapes, some are jeans, some are pants, some are this—but I’m not going to dictate what they are without substantial input from you. If you tell me something that I feel like is not going to be very practical or versatile or functional, I will tell you. But generally speaking, people know what’s going on. So I trust them to tell me. So yeah, start with the foundation.Maureen: I love your post on that, by the way. I unlocked your membership for it.Irene: Oh, thank you.Maureen: And then I know you have an idea of the additional layer on top of that. Can you talk about that really quickly?Irene: It’s like the—oh, I think you have a post on adding in statement pieces.Maureen: Yes.Irene: So once you have your foundation, right? And the foundation—I think I put in there that it was like 40-ish pieces. It could be 20. It could be 60. Nobody’s limiting you. But my point there was that I have those Cecilie Bahnsen skirts and the yellow ruffled sleeveless sash top and all these crazy things.And I think what we were talking about before with the five questions—do I love them? Does it take me places? Do I need it? Less so for statement pieces. Can I afford it? Is it a reasonable purchase? Right? So sometimes I think—I always go back to the Totême coat example—I might love it, I might need it, I could technically afford it, but does it make sense for me to buy it? Does it make sense for me to buy a $3,000 coat when I can get something kind of similar for $400? For me, the answer would be no. For some other people, the answer would be yes. That’s very much a personal call.Maureen: Yeah, totally. So those questions that you have about needing, loving, wanting—are those more geared toward those statement pieces? And then the questions that you have for the foundations are a little bit different? Or am I misunderstanding?Irene: No, it’s totally the same. I think I actually wrote in the “love” bucket—I subdivided it to people like me who really, really need to keep the bar high. Whereas people who are building a wardrobe, I said, don’t kill yourself if you don’t love a basic gray sweater. Just make sure there’s not something wrong with it in the sense that you don’t like how it feels on your body or you don’t like how it falls. You don’t have to love a basic gray sweater. It is a basic piece. So yeah, but the rest of it applies. Do you need it? Is it functional for your lifestyle? Can you afford it? Et cetera, et cetera.Maureen: Have you ever had a moment where what you wore transformed how you felt in your body, either positively or negatively? And what did that teach you?Irene: Well, there’s a few positive things, I guess. I remember putting on a sari once, and I felt like—so you know how a sari has that blouse or chemise? It’s super tight and it forces your shoulders back like this. And I was like, oh my God, I don’t think I’ve ever walked with such good posture in my life. And it just made me realize we’re all walking like this everywhere.And I remember once, a year after I gave birth to my second son, I was in a bikini in Barbados. I had like the softest belly ever still because I was eating chips, ice cream, and wine every single night a year after pregnancy. And I remember feeling really liberated that I posted this picture online. I wasn’t—I just didn’t care. I made this baby and this feels great. So that was nice. That was nice. That didn’t last forever, for sure.Maureen: What part didn’t last?Irene: *Feeling good in a bikini. I have never, ever been able to wear one in public. It is so painful for me to do it.Maureen: I don’t like it either. I never understand when folks say to younger people, “Just wear the bikini.” And I’m like, well, okay. It just takes me out of the moment. It doesn’t make me feel present. It makes me feel in my head. And I’m like, why do I have to wear the bikini?Irene: You know, I’m from Korea where when you go to the beach, literally everyone is covered, covered fully in protective gear. I think part of it is modesty. And of course, if you go away somewhere like Malaysia, women are fully covered in the water. But here in France and Europe, it always amazes me. You could be 90 years old and completely—your skin is hanging everywhere. You could be a 50-year-old mom in full menopause bloat and they’re all wearing bikinis. Nobody is thinking twice about it. So it’s got to be something in how they were raised to feel like that is okay and acceptable as it is. For some of us, it’s extremely hard to do it.Maureen: Let’s talk about that a little bit more. What is your context that you grew up in, and how did that influence the way that you view what is normal or okay for dressing?Irene: So I grew up with parents—my mother in particular—she loved fashion. She was extremely stylish. She grew up in Korea in the 60s and 70s and she was an airline stewardess for Korean Airlines. So back then that was quite a glamorous job. She could go to Paris, she could go to Europe, which back then—South Korea was quite a poor country—that was quite a luxury. So that definitely influenced what I saw growing up in my household.The flip side of that is that Koreans are very hard. I’m sure everybody’s gone down that TikTok rabbit hole—there’s a lot of plastic surgery, people are extremely thin naturally. So I also grew up being told, not necessarily by family, but even friends or relatives or just random strangers, like, “Oh, you’re just too big.” All the time. So I think by the time I was in my teens and early twenties, I hated going back to Korea because I knew that was coming. So I think that did take quite a toll on my self-esteem, for sure, and how I viewed my body.Maureen: Yeah, it sounds like a culture of policing other people’s appearance, where other people’s appearance is something that is okay to comment on.Irene: Oh, it’s 100% okay to comment on. There’s no question about it. I’m literally talking about I would answer the door and some of my aunt’s friends or the housekeeper would just be like, “Oh, you know, it’s time for your eyelid surgery.” Or, “If you lost 20 pounds, you could go for Miss Korea.” It was full on. I’m not exaggerating. And my family’s not even bad because they did not push me to get surgery. My immediate family never even uttered the word. But for everyone around me, it’s quite normal. Some parents—I have friends whose parents basically send their kids to Korea and say, “If you don’t get this, you can’t come home.” It is so ingrained in our mentality and in our culture.Maureen: It sounds really hard.Irene: When I hear myself say it to you, who’s not in the culture, I’m like, oh my God, that actually sounds crazy. But yeah, I guess I’ve normalized it internally.Maureen: Every culture has their version of crazy. And what’s always hard about that kind of stuff is it’s these rules around what social connection can and should look like. The reason that it’s painful is that these rules of conduct prevent connection. You have to do this thing in order to come back and be in relationship with us. That’s what makes it so hard. It’s not just about what it means for us physically, but how it impacts every aspect of our position in society and in our families.Irene: And to be fair, to your point, a lot of it is people just want to be beautiful. And they place a lot of value on looks. But my theory is that there’s such a push because of how important marriage is—or was—in Korea. I mean, we now have the lowest birth rate in the world because nobody wants to put up with that BS anymore. But I think it was so concentrated in my late teens to my mid-twenties because those were the prime years. Those were the prime years where I would find a man and make sure I was taken care of. They were sort of taking care of me to make sure that I was doing the right things for myself so I would get married. And literally, as soon as I got engaged, nobody talks to me about it anymore. Starting at like 28—nobody cares. You’re getting married. We’ve done our job. That’s it.Maureen: Yeah. Wow. That’s crazy. Does seeing it that way make it more or less painful?Irene: That’s my theory anyway.Maureen: I mean, I believe you. Does seeing it that way make it more or less painful?Irene: Yeah. I mean, I understand because I think about our history as a country and our society and how important getting married is to establishing social standing, social credit, whatever. So I can see why that would be so pushed by so many parents and families of their young girls. So yeah.Maureen: It sounds hard though. And also, you know, it is interesting what you’re saying about how the standards aren’t universal. Like I imagine that a size 8 or 10 in Korea is viewed differently than a size 8 or 10 in America. There’s no universal correct size. And I think that always helps me personally to be like, oh, this is all subjective anyway.Irene: I mean, you could say that, except they kind of do have a standard. Everyone sort of whispers what the correct goal weight is. And the facts were that—let’s say 2002 is when I first remember it, though it could have continued later—but in 2002, I could not find anything larger than a size six in stores. It was impossible. So at that time, I think I was about a size eight or 10. I was in flea markets buying stretchy jeans and things like that. I’m sure the size ranges have increased since then, but back then, if you were outside of that, you were out of the norm enough that they didn’t cater to you in stores.Maureen: Yeah. All I meant is the cutoff point here in the States would be—depending on the brand—what we call an extra large, a 12 or a 14, versus a six. The cutoff point is different. I’m not saying either one is okay or better, but mostly that the inherent subjectivity of where that cutoff is reminds me that it’s all BS. That doesn’t determine what size people’s bodies actually are. It’s just this idea of what they could or should be, and that’s subjective.Irene: Yeah. This is way more emotional energy than I thought I would be spending in this interview because it’s bringing up all these memories. In a good way.Maureen: In a great way. We don’t have to go there. It’s all good.Irene: No, no, no. I am totally open to chatting about this stuff. Totally open to it.Maureen: I have one last question, and I think this one should be more fun. How would you define your current relationship to clothes and style? What kind of phase are you in?Irene: Hmm. I would say for the last two years I was sort of in this non-experimental phase. I didn’t really want to buy anything. I didn’t want to add anything. I wasn’t looking to change my style. And now that I’m here, there’s so much new inspiration that I can’t help it. But at the same time, I still think I’m in that phase where I’m kind of like, I’m making the changes I need to make because I can’t wear jogging pants here. I generally need to be a little bit more polished here than I am back at home. But other than that, I’m still in the “I have enough clothes” mindset. I don’t need to be Black Friday shopping for myself. Shopping for clients, yes. For myself, no.And sometimes I still have FOMO. I was looking at the Net-A-Porter sale and thinking, oh God, that is just so chic. And then I’m like, do I really need that? I know I’m fine. And I keep coming back to that. When I see a really cool influencer wearing something, I’m like, oh, I wish I had that aesthetic. And then I’m like, nah. I’m good. I’m good. So that’s where I’m at. I’m just happy where I am.Maureen: Do you get to live vicariously through your clients?Irene: Yeah. I think there’s something interesting—you know how people say you can tell somebody’s job at fashion week by how they’re dressed? A lot of the people who aren’t influencers, like buyers or editors, they’re just dressed normally, but very chic. Because we spend all day in fashion—looking at fashion, buying fashion—that sometimes we just don’t have the brain power to style ourselves in some elaborate way. We just want to dress in a way that feels good and comfortable.Maureen: I get that. Well, thank you, Irene. This was amazing. Where can listeners find you?Irene: You can find me on Substack at In Moda Veritas and on Instagram at irene_KF.Maureen: Fantastic. I’ll make sure those are linked in the show notes. Thank you so much.Irene: Thanks so much, Maureen. I had such a great time.Maureen: I had a great time getting to know you.Irene: Thank you.OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This week, I’m delighted to share this interview with Evonne Sturm! She’s a fashion-industry veteran who really caught my eye through her beautiful weaving of industry knowledge with her personal narrative. We chat all about how working in fashion has taught her about clothing, how she finds her signature eyewear, and more! Make sure to subscribe so you’re notified when upcoming episodes with Irene Kim (김애린), and Anna Newton drop! Can’t wait. Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Evonne Sturm, fashion industry veteran. And her Substack, Musings of a Merchandiser, is a fun glimpse into the fashion machine, where she integrates personal narrative into deep dives on industry trends, both consumer-led and brand-led. Evonne, welcome to the show.Evonne: Thanks for having me, Maureen. I’m really excited to be here.Maureen: I’m excited to talk. You know, whenever I have a guest that’s in industry—that’s not my experience whatsoever—I really like to start out talking about how working in fashion has impacted your personal style and the way you dress. Understanding, of course, that you don’t necessarily have a frame of reference for what it might be like otherwise. But I’m curious if you can think of any memorable moments where working in fashion really impacted your taste or the way that you were dressing.Evonne: Sure, it’s actually a great question to start. So I would say working in fashion inevitably changes just how you see clothing in general. You really start to notice construction before color, fabrication before fit. And over time, I’ve really kind of stopped chasing trends and started just really chasing a feeling. I know silhouettes that make me feel really pulled together and which ones make me feel like I’m playing dress up.I would say probably the most memorable moment happened pretty early in my career back at Macy’s—not to age myself, but over 15 years ago—when I got a first real look kind of behind the curtain. How every decision from fabric quality to button to style to hem finish really came with a cost implication and a trade-off. It’s incredibly mind-blowing when you realize how much goes into the make of a single garment. And then once you’ve seen that, you cannot unsee it, especially as a merchandiser. I think about it literally 24 hours a day, whether I’m at work or whether I’m shopping personally.Maureen: Yeah. So, I mean, as a recovering perfectionist, I see so much detail in every purchase that I make. You know, I was just looking at some shirts and I was like, some of these buttons are white on navy. And then the plum version has plum-colored buttons and I much prefer that. Like, how do you handle that level of detail that you must see when you’re shopping? Does it ever get in the way or do you feel like it’s an asset?Evonne: It’s both an asset and it always gets in the way. Yeah, like I said, it’s just inevitable. I’m a curious person by nature too, and I just can never turn it off. And sometimes I have to realize, okay, you came out not for work, you came out for yourself. So once I’m able to switch that mindset off—and it almost rarely happens—sometimes it comes back full force when I look at the price tag on the garment. Like, really? And then I look at where the garment’s made. I’m like, really? It just kind of constantly snowballs.Maureen: I want to know a little bit more about what you mean. So when you see the price tag, does that raise your standards, lower your standards?Evonne: That’s a really interesting question. It honestly just kind of depends on the overall brand itself and your perceived value of it, and then kind of how it feels when you’re touching it, when you’re putting it on your body. So it really depends.It’s a funny thing I think about, especially when I shop luxury items, because knowing how much the markup is on those things will blow your mind. But then you’ve got to take into consideration the craftsmanship and where it’s made. If you’re looking at a luxury handbag, the type of leather—all of those details come into play constantly.Maureen: Yeah, yeah. What about working at—have you ever worked in office? Does the experience of dressing for a fashion office culture change how you might dress?Evonne: Yes and no. I mean, I’ve been going into an office since the dawn of time, since the start of my career. And it definitely has fluctuated—how much I’m in office versus where we’ve all netted out after COVID. But early on in my career, the office etiquette or style has definitely evolved. Back when I worked at Macy’s, we were not allowed to wear denim—only on Fridays.So, you know, you constantly had to be polished and presentable and never relaxed or in kind of almost like your weekend apparel. But since then, I mean, even just thinking about that over time, it seems wild that you were not allowed to wear jeans to the office other than Fridays. Now I think I wear jeans probably constantly. But there’s a way to dress them up and evolve them. So whether you’re putting them with a nice pair of heels or a nice pair of loafers, or you’re completely disregarding the jean in general and wearing a nice pair of pleated trousers—fashion has definitely evolved in the workplace. And I think there are so many brands now that take a new spin on it versus wearing the mundane, tried-and-true suit.Maureen: Yeah, I totally forgot that when I first started working it was the same—like no jeans, or if you could wear jeans they had to be black. It was like a whole thing. And now it’s not even remotely on my mind. That’s so funny. Cool.Evonne: Yeah. And even as I think—MACs at Bloomingdale’s back in the day, and I don’t know if this is still the case—but you always had to wear black on a market appointment if you were going anywhere. They almost had a set signature uniform. I’d be curious if any Bloomingdale’s people are out there in the universe—I’d love to know if the dress code has evolved or not.Maureen: Yeah. Like a Sephora employee.Evonne: Totally. Totally. Totally.Maureen: One of the fun things about your newsletter in particular is the way you weave your personal narrative in with your industry expertise. For example, you had a really nice piece about eyewear—which of course you’re wearing a fabulous pair today—which you have a personal connection to beyond the trends. So I’d love to hear more about your personal connection to eyewear and how this became your signature.Evonne: Totally. I have worn glasses since the third grade, so they’ve been part of me for a very, very, very long time. And my eyesight, believe it or not, has only gotten worse over time, which has, I think, really deepened my love for eyewear dramatically. It’s the one accessory that I truly need. And maybe that’s why I care about it so much.It wasn’t until after college, when I started working and spending most of my day at a computer, that I thought about eyewear differently. It’s not just a necessity, but it’s really, as you said, a form of self-expression. Over time, my glasses definitely evolved into what I call my visual signature. I think of them the same way somebody would think of their favorite lipstick or their favorite jacket. They really anchor my look and they frame not only how I see the world—both literally and figuratively.Evonne: I would say probably the biggest influence when it comes to eyewear is my deep, deep, deep love for Iris Apfel and her oversized signature frames. As they say, the bigger the frame, the closer to God, maybe. But with my small features, I really love the playfulness of an exaggerated shape.Evonne: There was a place in New York that I would go to on the regular for my glasses. It’s where these are from—it’s from a brand called SEE Eyewear. I would come in every year or two because I needed a new prescription since my eyes got worse. The manager noticed that. We began to have a rapport, and I’d come in and he’d tell his sales associates, “Do not give her anything that isn’t oversized. She will just not touch it.” So they always knew to put aside the big, big frames for me because that’s always what I ended up buying. And I really think that because I’m short in size, the oversized frames not only amplify my voice, but they also help amplify my personality on a whole other level.Maureen: That’s really cool. I love that perspective on it because there are so many different ways that we can think about our body and proportion. Sometimes there can be this idea that you want to match your proportions. But I love the idea of playing with—well, one, there’s no right or wrong answer, right? It’s all about personal preference. But I love the intentionality of “big because I’m small.” I think that’s really fun. And yeah, Iris is such an icon. What a legend. R.I.P.And then when you are picking—so you know you want a bigger pair—how do you know when a pair is the right one for you?Evonne: I don’t know. There’s just something that clicks. I can’t describe it. It’s like when you put on a pair of jeans and you’re like, oh man, everything about them fits me like a glove. It’s the same thing with eyewear.I think in the past I used to gravitate toward bold color and maybe a little bit of a pattern. And I’ve tried to veer away from that more recently. I’ve really tried to play up my hair color and accentuate my eye color. I used to have a pair of really dark blue frames and I loved them, but they were such a contrast to my pale skin that it was actually too much. The over-exaggerated frame against my pale skin was not a good combo. So now I find myself gravitating toward rich browns and tortoiseshell because I think it helps frame my face even better with the coloring of my skin tone and my eyes.Maureen: Yeah. No, I love that. I think that’s really fun. And also, you know, I always like to balance this idea of the analytical side with the intuitive side. Not that I really think they’re opposites, but I do think the word intentionality really speaks to the fact that we can have an idea of what we want going in and we can make an intentional choice to be like, “Yeah, the blue—I had enough experience with the blue and that particular shape on me to know that that doesn’t feel right anymore.”It’s like you’re using experience to build your intuition versus just making an impulsive decision. It’s something that you have data on and you’re like, “Oh, well, that worked for a while,” or “I tried it out and now I want to do something different.” And that’s what helps us build that intuition—creating that data, making that model for ourselves about what does and doesn’t feel good, I think.Evonne: Absolutely. And even to circle back to the first point about seeing behind the curtain and knowing how much things cost—I think one push and pull I definitely have with eyewear is the cost of it. I constantly have to remind myself that the cost per wear—even if the frame is expensive, and then I’ve got my lenses because I’m blind, which are even more expensive, and I like the bigger frame—so it’s a mashup of making sure the frame can hold the denseness of the lens, which inevitably causes the overall package to be more expensive.It’s this push and pull. I’m like, “Oh, I really like the frame. It looks so good on my face,” but then the price tag—oh. However, I constantly have to remind myself that the cost per wear will literally pay for itself because I put them on the minute I get up in the morning to look at my phone, and I take them off literally the minute before I wash my face and go to bed. So if you think about the amount of hours in the day that I spend wearing them—who cares, really? I have to take off the sticker shock and settle in with the fact that I’m going to wear them 24/7, so it doesn’t matter.Maureen: Well, this is totally anecdotal, but I have this feeling that when I was younger, glasses weren’t cool. But now glasses come in and out of being stylish just in general. Do you feel that that’s true? Have you experienced that?Evonne: Absolutely. In the third grade, when I found out I had to get glasses, I bawled my eyes out. I was so deeply upset because I was afraid I was going to get made fun of and people were going to call me four eyes. The amount of nicknames that came up in my head—people judging me for having to wear glasses.Because to your point, so many people now wear them, right? Back then it was almost taboo. You need them because you can’t do your work or you can’t see correctly—you’re impaired, literally. So it was constantly something I thought about growing up. But now, I don’t know—it’s part of my style. I’ve just fully leaned into it. And I love now that there’s so much variety in the market.When I was younger, we went to the same eyeglass place. Because I was a kid and needed glasses, the amount of options was so limiting. I had maybe one or two choices to pick from, which I wasn’t excited about because the options were so narrow. That fed into the whole narrative of having to wear glasses. But now the options are endless—which is also a good thing and a bad thing, right? Because you have so much choice. But that’s what really makes it fun. You can get them from anywhere.Maureen: You set up the perfect segue for the next question, which is how you decide what to buy or where—and how do you decide what not to buy or where? And this question was inherently more interesting for you anyway as a merchandiser. As we’ve talked about, you have all this information. But yeah, with all the options out there for what to buy and where, how do you decide? I personally find it overwhelming.Evonne: It is overwhelming. You’re not alone. It’s even overwhelming for myself. But when I think about what I’m deciding to buy, it’s kind of like my earlier thought about glasses and cost per wear. It’s really about longevity and how many ways I can truly wear something. That’s what’s going to earn its keep in my closet. It’s not really about minimalism, but more about mindfulness in general.The amount of times I spend hemming and hawing and having 80 tabs open before I decide whether I want to pull the trigger on something—it literally drives my husband insane. But I like to think of it as part of my Virgo-minded thought process. I’m not chasing quantity or even novelty. I’m really chasing that mix of comfort, quality, and clarity.And then on the opposite side—what I decide not to buy—I’m very petite in frame. So the biggest driver for me is ensuring that the item really isn’t wearing me nine times out of ten.Maureen: Yeah. Okay, well, using that analytical and feeling brain, how do you distinguish that? I can speak to this—I struggle with this. Not because I’m petite, but going back to the eyeglasses thing. The other day I was like, “Oh, I think it would be really cool to try out wearing some glasses. I’d like to add more structure to my look. I don’t love earrings. I just want to try something different.” So I tried on a bunch of glasses and I was like, “I think these are all wearing me.” So how do you know when something is wearing you versus when you are standing out? Especially when we think about oversized glasses—how do you know it feels right versus distracting?Evonne: From a literal sense, if the fabric feels overwhelming on me, I’m literally drowning in it. That’s probably the biggest thing for me. A lot of pants are way too long. I also have a smaller chest. So I’m constantly looking at brands that show up well and can play to my strengths of being petite.One of the brands that does this really well—although she’s on the pricier side—is Ulla Johnson. Her smaller size frame, I literally feel like, was made for me. It plays with proportion, it plays with shape, and I really gravitate toward things that accentuate that for me so the fabric first and foremost isn’t wearing me.Even though I love oversized glasses and I love a puff sleeve and I play with exaggeration constantly in my wardrobe, I also have to make sure there’s balance. There could be a puff sleeve, but I’m wearing fitted trousers so that I’m not being swallowed whole by the garment. So it’s really about playing with proportion.Maureen: Yeah, I think I’m curious what you think about this. Sometimes I think about it as, do you see me or do you see the clothes? Do you feel like there’s any aspect of that for you or a difference?Evonne: I don’t really think so. I’ve always been someone who expresses myself in style. I’ve always had a knack for fashion—way, way, way before I decided to make a career of it. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been shopping with a girlfriend and they’re like, “Oh, I could never wear that. You could pull it off.” And I’m like, “But you can wear it. You just have to hold your head a little higher.”You’ve got to have the confidence to feel like you can. Literally anyone, in my opinion, can wear anything as long as they hold their head high and have the confidence to wear it. I think anybody can wear anything. So I’ve never really been one to shy away from fashion, because if I feel confident and I feel good in it, it doesn’t really matter. I don’t really care what anyone else thinks. But I could be a very rare breed. That’s not normal for most people.Maureen: No, I don’t disagree. I think a lot of people feel that way. I was mostly thinking about preferences. For me personally, as much as I love really flamboyant fashion, I don’t want to be overshadowed by it. That’s my only hesitation.Evonne: Right.Maureen: It’s not necessarily a confidence thing, but I think sometimes it’s just a preference of how you want to show up in the world. For some people, leading with the fashion is the most fun possible thing. And I think we just have different ways of experiencing clothes. I’m the kind of person that if you’re wearing something amazing, I’m the one who starts the conversation with, “Oh my God, your outfit’s amazing.” I’m receptive to that. I think we’re just different little puzzle pieces in the conversation, in different roles.Evonne: Yeah, for sure.Maureen: What about body awareness? What I mean by this is how does clothing’s texture, fit—how does any of that impact whether or not you connect with a garment or want to wear it?Evonne: I think over the years there are definitely signature details that I gravitate toward. In silhouette—whether that’s a puff sleeve, whether that’s a ruffle, whether that’s a polka dot. Texture is a fun one. But again, it’s about finding potentially the right brand and the shapes that fit your mold, and then working those into the textures that work best for your body, if that makes sense.Maureen: Anything you steer away from because of how it feels?Evonne: Nothing that I would say I universally steer away from. I would say the thing I’m maybe most self-conscious about is that I have a smaller chest. So anything that gets too low—Maureen: As you’re sitting here in the most buttoned-up thing possible.Evonne: Exactly. This might be a personal detail, but I have a mole that sits pretty low on my neckline and chest. It’s usually my gauge. If something dips lower than that, I’m like, okay, this is too much.Because I’m small-chested, it does get hard when tops don’t fit the way I’d like. Sometimes I think, oh, I’d kill for a bigger chest so I could gravitate toward different silhouettes and play with my neckline more. But because I’m small-chested, I steer away from certain things because I don’t feel good in them. It’s not my best sense of self. If something drapes too much there, I don’t want to accentuate the fact that nothing is there.Maureen: Oh yeah, totally. I think we all have aesthetic preferences for our body. It doesn’t have to be about “flattering” or understanding every reason why something does or doesn’t work. Of course, every week I’m here trying to understand. But sometimes it’s just, “Oh, I just don’t like that.”Evonne: Yeah. It’s not worth it. There are certain things I’ve tried to push myself to like, and I just can’t like them. And I’m like, why do I care so much about liking this? This is the situation I’m in. I’m going to stop trying to force that.Maureen: I don’t really like wearing oversized tops. I prefer a fitted top and then a really wide pant. That’s my favorite silhouette. I think it’s fun. When I see someone else wearing something oversized on top, I’m like, oh, I’d love to try that. And then I remember—I’ve actually tried that a ton of times and I consistently don’t like it. So maybe we can stop trying that. Or maybe not right now.Evonne: Totally.Maureen: We can give ourselves that acceptance and grace. We don’t have to understand more.Evonne: I can’t tell you how many times I need to buy a dress for a special occasion and I get so attracted to an oversized shape because I love playing with proportions. It’s constantly something I pick up. Then I get to the fitting room and I have the same thought you just shared. “Why do I keep picking this shape?”I look like a lunch bag—like a paper bag. I’m completely lost in the fabric. This is not going to look good at a special event. I’m not going to feel confident or like my best self in this item. I know I have to pick either a more formal dress or something that accentuates my smaller proportions, because that’s where I’m going to look my best and not have the garment wearing me.But for whatever reason, even though we’ve talked about this so many times, I forget.Maureen: We all forget. And that’s OK. Especially when we’re doing so much stuff online, we’re constantly seeing examples of an oversized silhouette—just because we both said that specifically—in all the catalogs. And then you get that into your head as the best aesthetic. I’m only speaking for myself, right? I get that into my head as the best aesthetic. And then I have to reframe and remind myself, yes, I see that in the catalogs or I see that online, but that doesn’t immediately translate to what I feel best in. We have to do that kind of filter.Evonne: Totally. And when you are in person, it can be hard to tell sometimes, when you see something on the hanger, how oversized it’s going to be or what shape it’s going to take. That’s why shopping in person is the absolute best. A company hates to see my return coming because on the model—the five-nine model who wears a size two or four—it looks incredible on her. But on me, who’s not five-nine, I’m drowning in it. That’s one of my biggest frustrations with shopping online because I am not that person.Maureen: None of us are, right?Evonne: Exactly. And it almost always gets returned. That’s why I try to stick to brands where my fit is consistent. Like FRAME denim. I know no matter what, anytime I go in there, my size is my same size—no matter the fit, no matter the fabric. It’s consistency for me. And that’s what keeps me coming back. No matter how many times I walk into that store saying, “I’m not going to buy anything,” I always walk out with something because they know what they’re doing when it comes to fit and size.Maureen: That’s awesome. It’s so good to have those brands that just work.Evonne: It’s taken me years to find the brands that work best for me. And I’m constantly trying to find new ones because your style evolves, it changes, colors change, your fit can fluctuate. So you almost need to have a handful in your wheelhouse whenever you’re shopping.Maureen: Totally. What’s exciting you in fashion right now?Evonne: There’s definitely something. I love the resurgence of modern prep—what some people call preppy academia. And one of the brands I literally cannot get enough of is La Veste. They’re a Spanish brand. They really take this interpretation adventurously and spin the whole concept on its head.They borrow from preppiness—structure, polish, tradition—but then inject color and charm and a little chaos in ways where the result feels familiar but delightfully offbeat. They’re just having so much fun with it. I’m constantly amazed season after season how they top themselves again and again.They have stores in Europe but none in the U.S. They did a pop-up in SoHo last summer. I cannot recommend them enough, especially when it comes to mixing color. That’s maybe the other thing I’m most interested in right now—unexpected color combinations.Red with brown. Black with navy—shout out to Fanny Adams and Kelly Williams for that one. I never thought I’d dabble in black and navy, but they’ve spun it on its head for me. And La Veste plays with olive and chartreuse or hunter green in stripes and patterns where you’d think, “I would never put these together,” but the way they pair them makes you see things completely differently.The market feels so oversaturated right now. So many options. A lot of the tried-and-true brands sadly feel the same. So I love when brands lean into familiarity but take it to another level with detail or color that makes them truly unique and stand out from the crowd.Maureen: I’ll make sure to include a link in the show notes. Coming toward the end here—what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Evonne: Pay attention to how the clothes make you feel, not how they look on anyone else. Reach for those pieces on repeat because they make you stand taller and instantly feel more like yourself. That’s the sweet spot.From there, look for patterns in what you already love. Textures. Colors that work on your skin tone or complement your eyes. That’s your personal brand story starting to take shape. And most importantly, give yourself permission to edit. If something served you 10 years ago but doesn’t now, get rid of it. It doesn’t need to be in your closet. I’m a big believer in a seasonal closet overhaul. If you’re not gravitating toward something anymore, don’t save it for a rainy day. If you haven’t worn it in two or three years, let it go. It’s not serving you. It’s not bringing you joy.Maureen: I’m a secret minimalist, so I love that advice. And I love what you said about paying attention to how it feels on you rather than how it looks on someone else. I think I could have used that advice years ago.Thank you so much. Where can listeners find you?Evonne: You can all find me on Substack at Musings of a Merchandiser.Maureen: Fabulous. I’ll make sure to link to that. Thank you—this was really fun.Evonne: Thanks for having me.OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

After an unexpected few month break due to debilitating health issues, I’m delighted to be back with a fantastic episode featuring Anika Krueger! I’m biased, but especially excited to share this episode as Anika is not only a great writer, but actually a listener of this very podcast—as such, very qualified to weigh in on the concept of “intuitive dressing”. We also discuss her great series Style Notes, what’s on her do-not-buy list, and more. Enjoy!Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style.I’m Maureen McLennon Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today’s guest is Anika Krueger, writer of NO WARDROBE. Anika is an uber-stylish corporate girly by day, personal stylist by night. We love her style analyses and the way that she makes high street look high end.Anika, welcome to the show.Anika: Hi, Maureen. Thank you so much for having me. So glad to get to talk to you.Maureen: You’ve such an early supporter of the concept of intuitive style and of the podcast, and just in general the idea of intuitive dressing. I would just love to hear from you—what is your definition of what it means to dress intuitively? What does this concept mean to you and how does it show up in your life?Anika: I think it’s so funny because I feel like from the outside my personal style doesn’t appear intuitive at all. It’s really minimal. I dress with a really limited color palette and very few details. My style is defined by clean lines, neutral tones, and really simple silhouettes.I feel like most people associate intuitive style with really playful, experimental, expressive looks, but that’s so not me. And I feel like the same applies to my home and my lifestyle. Everything is really minimalist—my apartment is really simple, really uncluttered, and filled only with things that make sense to me.Also with my interior decorating, I use really neutral colors. So both my wardrobe and my environment are always really edited and very curated—almost the opposite of intuitive.But I’ve realized that my intuition actually guides me toward this simplicity. It took me years to accept that my true style is that simple—and maybe kind of boring in a way—but my intuition expresses itself through calm and clarity. I like order. I like harmony. My brain and emotions feel best in simplicity.I recently had this epiphany that, for me, intuitive style actually means choosing what supports my nervous system. Does that sound weird? I need to wear clothes that feel like me and match my emotions that day. Dressing intuitively simply means aligning how I feel with how I present myself.So yeah, to sum everything up, it’s choosing what supports the version of myself I want to be and what supports my nervous system.Maureen: Well, we can end the podcast right there. No, I mean, that’s so incredible. And I agree with you on every point about the misconceptions—what we think intuitive style might look like versus what it actually feels like.Intuitive style isn’t an aesthetic; it’s a preference. It’s a way of choosing. You were talking about your nervous system and how clothing supports it. Can you walk through an example—maybe a time when you tried something more colorful or wild and felt it didn’t align, versus something you really enjoy wearing? What’s the difference in feeling for you?Anika: Off the top of my head, I don’t necessarily remember a specific example because every time before I leave the house I actually check whether something supports my nervous system or not. But I do remember this massive teddy fur coat I got probably two years ago. I felt so visible—so seen—on the street, and I couldn’t handle that at the time. That’s probably a good example.Maureen: Yeah, that’s a great example. I can think of that too—sometimes something just feels loud, and it’s not the kind of attention you want.Anika: Exactly.Maureen: You mentioned that before you leave the house every day, you do a nervous system check. I need more information. What is this?Anika: I mean, I do lay out my clothes before I leave the house because I leave really early in the morning for work. But mostly, I just look in the mirror and check: what’s on the agenda today? How do I feel today? And most importantly, how do I want to feel today?Then I do a little check—does my outfit represent that? Let’s say I’m wearing a leather jacket, but I don’t feel very strong that day, or I chose something that makes me feel more visible than I want to be. Then I’ll just change it or make little tweaks.Maureen: So the idea is choosing something that represents how you’re feeling on that day versus just in general—or maybe both?Anika: Yeah, yeah, both probably. I also—and I think I’ve talked about this on Substack before—I always feel like I want to have a cohesive look throughout my personal style. So that’s actually referring to what you said about emotions in general or representation in general.Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. What do you think it is about that idea of being cohesive that resonates with you? I know I do, and so many other people do. What is it about that that feels good to you?Anika: I think my Style Notes on Substack actually give away that I’m quite analytical. And also, I think that reflects my more perfectionist side. I feel like that’s probably the reason.Maureen: Yeah, yeah, that’s super fair. Let’s talk about that.So, okay, I think another misconception that I’ve experienced with intuitive style is that it’s somehow the opposite of being analytical. I think for me—and from what I’ve heard from you—they’re actually very intertwined.With your Style Notes, if I can summarize, you analyze a really cool person and their style, and you see what it is about that which works or resonates with you. So I’d love to hear your take on how being analytical relates to being intuitive. Do you think they’re opposites? Do you think they fit together? How does that work?Anika: Yeah, I actually think they do fit together, and they intertwine. I feel like on a subconscious level, I would always be analytical. But then this intuitive or emotional side that we’ve talked about also plays a role in that.I think I always have style formulas and patterns in the back of my head—even things I’ve probably already discussed on my podcast or in my style notes. And then my intuitive style actually plays with that.So they kind of intertwine—my more perfectionist or analytical side and my intuitive side. In the end, I think it’s a sum of both of those that makes me get dressed.Maureen: Yeah. Can I share how I see they relate and see what you think?Anika: Okay.Maureen: To me, it’s like if you think about a trained interior designer or a trained artist—yes, you can absolutely be completely self-taught and create something totally new. And also, a lot of artists learn techniques by studying people they look up to or artworks they’re inspired by.When you think about someone who’s learned how to sculpt marble, for example, that’s not something you just pick up one day and nail on the first try. Someone probably had to teach you techniques.So I see it as a study—it’s a study in something we’re clearly passionate about, which is getting dressed. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with studying what other people are doing in order to interpret it for ourselves. I think it’s just a deeper way of engaging with the topic.Maureen: And I think it’s—I don’t think that mimicking or taking pieces from what someone else is wearing is ever going to look or feel exactly the same on us anyway, because we are unique individuals. Our personality and all of that really impacts how it feels. So I see it as a way of engaging deeper in a topic that we care about. How do you feel about that?Anika: I love that idea. I mean, actually, when you mentioned the trained interior designer example, I immediately thought of a trained dancer. A trained dancer also trains—they have routines, they have training sessions—but in a way they have to bring emotion into it once they start dancing and moving.So of course there’s choreography once they’re on stage, but there’s so much intuition in the way they dance and move. And yeah, I love that you’re also a supporter of the idea that you can copy other people but still remain true to yourself or true to your intuitive style in the end.Maureen: Yeah. Well, I think we should touch on perfectionism then, because to me, being analytical isn’t the same thing as being a perfectionist. They’re related, but not the same. I’m curious about your thoughts on this.To me, perfectionism is where you take analytics too far and you’re like, “Oh, if it’s not exact, it’s not worth trying.” How do you think about analytics?Sorry, I should have asked you first—I got excited.Anika: No, no, that’s okay. I feel like I’ve never thought about it that way. They were always intertwined for me. This analytical side always had almost a bad association or connotation for me.But actually, analyzing something can support your idea of something, or just serve as research. And I like that you separate those two or differentiate between the two ideas. Perfectionism per se is not something bad, and being analytical is also not something bad. But I like that you actually separate them.Maureen: Yeah. I mean, I think I can give an example. I love your Style Notes series, right? And it encouraged me to write my own version—I couldn’t help it. I saw yours and I was like, “I have to do one like this.” I was so excited by it.That emotional response made me want to do this highly analytical thing. They’re very intertwined. And then the difference I see is this: if I analyze someone’s style and recreate it, my version will look different—spoiler alert, it always will.If I then automatically say, “Different is bad. I failed. This wasn’t worth trying,” that’s where it tips into perfectionism. That’s where it becomes, “I shouldn’t even bother dressing like the people whose style I like. I shouldn’t even bother wearing the clothes that excite and energize me, because on me it won’t be right. It’ll look bad. My body will make it look bad.”That’s where it becomes unhealthy—this pessimism that stops us from even going for the things that excite us.Anika: I love your take on that. Maureen: Does that resonate with you? Have you ever had that experience?Anika: Yes. I think whoever I look at within my Style Notes, I always—and that’s why I do that little section at the end—ask, “What do I take away for my own personal style?” And it’s always something really abstract.I think it’s important to see patterns rather than saying, “Okay, this outfit consists of a white shirt plus black jeans and boots.” But rather, what’s the vibe behind the outfit? What do I like about it? And how does it make me feel, rather than focusing on the elements or the specific pieces in the outfit? Not “how can I copy that person best,” but “how can I make my own version of this?” or “what about this look or this personal style would benefit my own style?”I think it’s important to see patterns rather than saying, “Okay, this outfit consists of a white shirt plus black jeans and boots.” But rather, what’s the vibe behind the outfit? What do I like about it? And how does it make me feel, rather than focusing on the elements or the specific pieces in the outfit? Not “how can I copy that person best,” but “how can I make my own version of this?” or “what about this look or this personal style would benefit my own style?” - Anika Krueger Maureen: Yeah, no, I love that. I think we have to let the emotional and analytical sides coexist. I think they’re better together—that’s my take. I would love to talk next about how you decide what to buy and where—and how you decide what not to buy and where.Anika: That’s really funny, because I feel like my personal style is actually defined by what I decide not to buy and not to wear. Because it’s so curated, edited, and minimal, I’m not an impulse shopper. I buy very intentionally.I have a really clear vision of what I want to buy and how I want to dress. I gravitate toward pieces that already feel like they’re hanging in my wardrobe. And that often leads me to buying upgraded versions of things I already have—pieces that are really aligned with my personal style and also with practicality.I keep a list that I update regularly of things I don’t want to buy—almost like a reminder. And that’s something I do not only with my wardrobe, but in life in general. I love reflecting on past decisions, not in a bad or unhealthy way, but more like, “Don’t buy that weird thing again,” or “Remember last time you sold 20 logo shirts?” It’s more in that way.Maureen: Okay. I think what can be really hard is knowing what we do and don’t like. One thing you said is that you buy things that feel like they’d already be hanging in your closet. I don’t expect this to be an easy answer, but how do you build that trust? How do you know when an item feels like it’s missing?Anika: Oh, that’s a good question. I think it’s kind of like the Marie Kondo thing—it sparks joy. You can’t really put your finger on it.I try things on, and if it feels like a true addition to my wardrobe, like an extension, then it feels right. And that brings us back to intuition. I think I’m someone with a really strong gut feeling. Sometimes I feel it first, and the explanation comes later.It’s about trying something on and doing that little check-in: “Okay, that’s it,” or “That’s not it.” Sometimes I can point to why—the length, the silhouette, the material. And sometimes I can’t. You just hang it back. And I also think you have to remind yourself and build a kind of style confidence—with your personal style and with the more practical side of having a wardrobe. You go shopping, you have a feeling about something, and you trust yourself enough to say, “That’s not the right decision today—or ever.”Maureen: Do you have a sense, just ballpark, of your success rate? Like, for how many things you try on, how many do you actually end up buying?Anika: Oh, that’s so interesting. That’s such a good question. Sometimes I try things on just to see—to push a little outside the box. But the rate of things I actually buy is quite low.I’m not someone who loves shopping and tries on a million things. I’m more like, “Okay, I want to see how that feels.” Sometimes I try something on purely out of curiosity. I recently went to Amsterdam and we went into, I think, Filippa K. I tried on this really beautiful coat that was very cinched at the waist. I just wanted to see how it looked on my body. And I think I should do that more often. That would probably be really good for my intuitive style—letting it grow a bit and allowing my personal style to evolve.But yeah, to come back to your question, the rate is pretty low for things I try and don’t end up buying.Maureen: Hmm….I try so many things on—so many—and then I buy, like, one thing. I don’t know. I think there’s sometimes a size component that makes it more complicated, like fit, when your body isn’t really designed for certain things.But even when I was in more clearly straight sizes, I still tried on a lot and didn’t end up buying much, or it didn’t stay long. For me, that goes back to the idea of how analytical and emotional fit together. I need data to respond to.I’m collecting data when I try things on, when I browse online, when I compare measurements. All of that data helps me decide what’s worth ordering and what’s not. And then from there, I keep what I can keep.It sounds like you have a different approach—you know what you want to try on, and you feel pretty confident it’s going to work. And then it does.Anika: I mean, sometimes—especially in this day and age with online shopping—it’s been a tough day and you order something, and suddenly two or three things are in your basket that probably aren’t supposed to be there. But yeah.And actually, you inspired me to do this more often—spending a day with a good friend and just browsing. I don’t think I necessarily take the time to do that, but I should. And I think there’s no right or wrong approach here.Maureen: Totally. And just to be clear, when I say I try on a lot of stuff, it’s usually because I have a very specific idea of what I want, and I’m trying on different versions of the same thing.I’m not trying on things I know I don’t want. For example, I don’t wear yellow, so I’m not trying on yellow. But if I want a gray sweater, I’ll try on quite a few of them.Anika: I completely understand. It can be hard to find the right version, but I think it’s worth trying.Maureen: It is. Yeah. Very interesting. Very interesting.I also wanted to go back to something you mentioned—you said that when you buy something, you want to extend or enhance your wardrobe. I love that idea. Can you say more about what you mean by that?Anika: Yeah, this is probably also a bit of a perfectionist idea, but in the end, I want my wardrobe to represent only what makes sense to me. I’m really intentional about what goes in, like I said.Maureen: Can I check if this is part of what you mean? You don’t buy just to buy—everything has a purpose. Do you buy multiples of things? And if you do, are they very different? How do you know something is extending your wardrobe versus just making things easier? What’s the difference between ease and extension?Anika: I actually don’t buy multiples. I feel like my entire personal style journey is based on upgrading versions of things. Like, let’s take your gray sweater, for instance. For me, it’s oversized blazers. Ten years ago, I started collecting oversized blazers, and I always sell one and then buy an upgraded version that fits my—probably also trend-led—idea of an oversized blazer at that time.So “enhancing” or “extending” a blazer really means buying upgraded versions rather than buying multiples. If you look at my personal style over the last ten years, it’s always been oversized blazers, loafers, ballet flats, coats, trench coats—just in different versions.I sell a lot of clothes secondhand and really try to keep only the things in my wardrobe that I truly love. And I completely understand your idea of trying different versions of a gray sweater.Maureen: Yeah. And when you say “enhanced version,” you mentioned that sometimes that can be trend-led. Is that mostly what you mean, or is there another element?Anika: Yeah, I think it’s mostly—sadly—trend-led. At the moment, it’s exaggerated shoulders, very textured fabrics, that really strong silhouette, like The Frankie Shop, to name a brand.But I also think intuition and the emotional side guide me, too. I’m not only buying enhanced versions because of trends—I’m also buying for a personality that has grown so much over the last ten years. I’ve become more courageous about buying more quote-unquote fashion pieces.I used to be much more of a people pleaser, and now I’ve realized that people don’t really care what you’re wearing. That’s also what makes something like an oversized blazer feel like an enhanced version.Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s awesome. I’m with you.Let’s talk about something you mentioned earlier—looking at your wish list. Do you have one?Anika: I actually don’t have a wish list. I have a not-to-buy list. I love the idea of a wish list and the satisfaction of checking things off, but I only have a not-to-buy list.Maureen: So what’s on it right now?Anika: All right, let me check my notes. First—no surprise—sneakers, except maybe one elegant Samba version. Short jackets that don’t cover the hips. I always gravitate toward them, and I always sell them. It goes back to what we talked about earlier—I feel very seen in short jackets, and it’s not comfortable for me.Logo shirts and sweatshirts. Shoes you can’t walk in—I commute to work and have a 30-minute walk every morning. I tried shoes I couldn’t walk in until last year, and I’m smarter now.Maureen: Yeah, that’s good.Anika: The last three are colors: khaki green pieces, warm beige pieces, and dark gray pieces. It’s very specific, but it’s so helpful to have that guidance.Maureen: Mm-hmm. It’s funny—those three colors are also colors I don’t buy. Yay. Anika: So what would be on your not-to-buy list?Maureen: What is on my not-to-buy list? Long jackets.Anika: Interesting.Maureen: Because it’s not really required by the weather here. I do have two long jackets, but that’s plenty.This might be a cop-out, but also things I don’t like. Sometimes I’ll buy something because it’s practical or comfortable or “good enough,” and then I have a hard time styling it. It takes up so much brain space in a way that things I genuinely like don’t. Those feel effortless.So yeah, my biggest rule is: if I don’t really like it, please don’t buy it.There’s a lace shirt that looks really cool under a dress. I ordered the dress and I’m keeping it—I really like it, I’ve already worn it a bunch. But the top…I liked it in theory.I have to send it back because I know I don’t actually like it. It’s not the exact right one, whatever it is. And if I keep it, it’s going to be a whole headache. So I’m sending it back.Anika: Perfect. Yeah, that’s actually the idea of “sparking joy” that I mentioned before.Maureen: Yeah. Exactly. As easy as that.Anika: Yeah.Maureen: It can be hard, especially when you have a really specific idea in your head of what you want to accomplish, and something is close—but it’s not it.Anika: True.Maureen: Okay, so we’ve talked a little about how you feel in your clothes on the emotional side. What about body awareness? How things feel on your body—the texture, the fit. How does that influence what you decide to buy and wear?Anika: I think it influences me both subconsciously and consciously. I’m really grateful to say that my body feels more like a friend—it gives me signals. And I know not everybody can say that.For me, body awareness is less about sizing or silhouettes and more about the emotional side, the nervous system side we’ve talked about. Of course, body awareness plays a huge role in what I decide to buy or wear, especially combined with the emotional side of getting dressed.Whenever I feel like I need support in the morning, I’ll wear something in a stronger material—like a heavy leather jacket or a textured oversized blazer with exaggerated shoulders.We’ve also talked about visibility versus invisibility. When you feel very visible, you become extremely aware of your body and very self-conscious. In that sense, body awareness probably plays the most important role when I get dressed, combined with the idea of supporting my nervous system.Maureen: When you talk about feeling exposed, what does that feel like? Is it fear? What does that sensation actually feel like?Anika: Not necessarily scared—more like, “Okay, everyone’s looking.” It’s totally uncomfortable.Maybe it’s like a distraction. Yeah. A distraction, but also anxiety. You’re just very aware of the fact that you’re wearing something specific. You feel sensitive.Maureen: Yeah. Absolutely. I get that.Maureen: So we’ve talked a little bit about how you feel in your clothes, more on the emotional side. What about body awareness? So this would be how things feel on your body—the texture or the fit. How does that influence what you decide to buy and wear?Anika: I think it influences me both subconsciously and consciously. I’m really grateful to say that I actually feel like my body is more of a friend—it gives me signals. And I know not everybody can say that.For me, body awareness is less about sizing or silhouettes and more about the emotional side, this whole nervous-system aspect I’ve talked about. Of course, body awareness plays a huge role in what I decide to buy or wear, especially when we talk about the emotional side of getting dressed.Whenever I feel like I need a bit of support in the morning, I’ll wear something in a stronger material—like a heavy leather jacket or a textured oversized blazer with exaggerated shoulders.We’ve also talked about visibility versus invisibility. In that sense, you become very aware of your body and very self-conscious. So body awareness probably plays the biggest role when I get dressed, combined with the idea of supporting my nervous system.Maureen: Yeah. And when you talk about feeling exposed, what does that feel like? Is it fear? What does that sensation feel like for you?Anika: Not necessarily scared—more like, “Okay, everyone’s looking.” It’s totally uncomfortable.Maybe it’s more like a distraction. But also anxiety. You’re just so aware of the fact that you’re wearing something specific. You feel sensitive.Maureen: Yeah. Absolutely. I get that.Okay, let’s talk about how your style has changed. I know we’ve talked a little bit about how a lot of elements have stayed the same, but are there any memorable phases you can think of?Anika: Yeah. I think my personal style is so closely connected to my personality that any major life change has been a reason for my style to evolve.The first one that comes to mind is university. I moved to a bigger city, and my style evolved during that quote-unquote blogger era. That was the first time I really had to filter style influences.I was chronically overdressed—oversized blazers, loafers—while everyone else at uni, in this really open-minded, casual city, wore Converse, jeans, and T-shirts. My early style was very vintage, retro, hipster, and very overdressed.Then it transitioned into more of a minimalist phase—almost a Gandhi minimalist style—even more minimal than today. That was also during the capsule wardrobe era. I never fully did a capsule wardrobe, but I came very close.Then, in my early law career, when I started my first law job, my style truly felt like my own. Around that time, someone very close to me became really ill, and getting dressed for work became an emotional anchor.No one at work knew what was happening in my personal life, and getting dressed—really dressing up—was the biggest and most grateful distraction. It helped me support my emotions and keep it together.After that, all major life changes just built on that evolution—breakups, moving cities.What’s funny is that the city I live in now is the first place I’ve ever truly felt at home. People dress up, but in a very authentic way. I don’t have to wear Converse just to fit in, and that feels really nice.Maureen: Yeah, I was actually hoping to talk about that. I think there’s a very real tension between wearing what feels good to us and wearing what feels good relative to the people around us.There can be a divide between what feels like it represents our personality and what we’re seeing around us. So when you were at uni and everyone was wearing Converse—did you feel more comfortable in loafers, or did it depend on the situation? How did you navigate that mismatch?Anika: That’s so interesting. I don’t think I had the confidence back then to wear the loafers and feel good. I wore a mishmash—I’d wear the Converse with the blazer.I tried to adapt to a level that felt acceptable but never actually felt good.I’ve become much better at not doing that. For example, casual events where you don’t really know anyone—I used to dress way down for those.Actually, Substack really helped me with that. It kind of taught me that it’s okay to dress the way you want, even if the crowd isn’t into fashion or dressing up. That’s not a reason to adapt.Now I’m more confident choosing the loafers—but I used to absolutely choose the Chucks instead.Maureen: Yeah, that’s super fair.So what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Anika: I love that question. I’d say: take it seriously. I actually have to remind myself of that too. Fashion is often considered superficial, but it’s not.View it as something important to you and see it as a holistic process. Take your emotions and your confidence into consideration. Take time to discover not only what you want to wear, but how you want to feel.Also, discover what your values are. That circles back to the Converse-versus-loafers discussion—just be unapologetic about who you are.Grow into a version of yourself you like, and then dress accordingly. Take your time figuring out what that means for you.I also think it’s helpful to see your wardrobe as a space of happiness. That sounds cheesy, but really—fall in love with fashion, celebrate it as something important, something you do for yourself.In the end, it’s how you show up in the world. It’s the first thing people see about you. I always have to remind myself that it matters because it influences so many areas of my life.Maureen: Great advice. Well, thank you so much. Where can listeners find you?Anika: First on my Substack—it’s called No Wardrobe. The original idea was that I wanted to sell my entire wardrobe and build it from scratch.My Instagram is anika.ricarda. People can also find me on Indyx—I’m a personal stylist there. The link is in my Instagram bio and on Substack.Maureen: Awesome. I’ll make sure all of that is linked in the show notes. Thank you so much.OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Head’s up—there won’t be an episode next week but don’t worry, we have amazing episodes coming up, including with Anika Krueger, Lindsay Sword and more folks you won’t want to miss!Today’s guest is Traci Landy of Rambling in Style. Traci shares her experience as a college athlete, discovering her creative-side as an adult, and what she’s trying to say with her clothing. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeMaureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today’s guest is Traci, writer of Rambling in Style on Substack. Traci launched into the scene in the spring and has been lighting up our feeds ever since. And in addition to writing about style, she’s a full-time school teacher and parent. I love her extremely relatable angle as a fellow self-taught personal style enthusiast. I think this is really important kind of representation. Traci, welcome to the show.Traci: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. I’m excited to chat with you.Maureen: One thing I appreciate about your writing is your flexibility and the way that you allow yourself to kind of go where the vibe takes you. So for example, your post about palate cleansers, which aside from being a great lesson in slowing down, also touched on rule breaking. Specifically, you had planned out a handful of outfits and ended up dressing very differently. So what is that decision-making process like, planning outfits and staying flexible?Traci: It’s so funny because all my friends and family would describe me as like the least flexible person in the universe. To say, that this is a skill that I’ve had to really try to build over time is the truth. Our family was going to Aruba and I have been loving using Indyx to digitize my wardrobe and I’ll probably talk about it a lot here and there. I was digitizing my wardrobe, planning a collection of what I was going to wear each day. One of the things when we go away, we have this unspoken family rule that it’s carry-on only. Like we don’t check bags. We refuse to do it. We went to Disney World for like eight days and we did not check a bag. So I’m trying to get everything neatly in my luggage and I plan it down to the T, and I got to Aruba and it’s funny, like you mentioned vibes, the vibes just didn’t feel good. They felt off for what I packed. Old Tracy would have probably went into a panic, right? Of like, but I planned this and I have to take pictures and what about my content and what about my next blog post? And this new Traci 2.0 that I’m really growing into since kind of my Substack launched in the spring has really been kind of like, okay, pause. You don’t really want to get dressed right now. You don’t really want to put on these really cute outfits that you planned. You instead want to focus on just being present with your family. You don’t want to be running around holding your camera, taking pictures. Like it just wasn’t what I wanted to do on the trip. And there was this part of me that felt so guilty, right? Like I was like, I packed these outfits, I have to shoot them, people need to see them, that’s what the people want, and I had to take a minute and say, like, but what do I want? Like right now I want time with my family and right now I want to wear what just feels… I don’t really want to put a heel on or, you know, a pair of shorts that might just feel a little tight right now because I’m having fun with my family and we’re trying all the things. And I think it’s just building that skill of just giving myself permission to say, you can change course, right? Like you don’t have to go into something and say, I’m 100% doing this because it’s what everyone else wants. It was in that moment saying, well, what do I want right now? I want to be comfortable. I don’t wanna wear all these things that I planned out and I wanna enjoy being present with my family. And that’s kind of where that post came from. Like it wasn’t supposed to be that. It was supposed to be everything else. And giving myself grace to say, you can change course and allowing myself, I love to make rules for myself, right? Like I have to wear this or I have to have this done by this day or whatever it is. And a lot of the rules I make for myself, nobody else is making them for me. So in this new 2.0 phase, it’s been a lot of saying like, okay, you can pivot and you can pivot and be okay, right? You don’t have to have this breakdown or this shaming that you didn’t do what you planned. You can just pivot and try something different. When it comes to getting dressed, a lot of what I do is I pivot and I can make those adjustments. But the big thing for me has been like not following that up with shame, right? Of like, you did a bad job or you didn’t do what you said you were going to do. It’s okay to let the world down to take care of yourself. And I think that was that moment. So on this podcast, I try to talk about body awareness. And I think that’s a big part of telling our bodies that, or making sure that our bodies and our minds are in the right roles.Maureen: So I’m just curious, you had mentioned that in the past you would have panicked. This time, how do you make that transition to not panicking when the situation is the same? Do you lead with your mind? Do you lead with your body? Traci: Yeah. I think it’s a lot of leading with my mind because I think that is my worst enemy. And I write about this all the time about like, you know, being a super type B person and sometimes like being a little bit of a hot mess and having to juggle that. And sometimes that can be really stressful, but yeah, I think a lot of it is like conditioning my mind to say like, it’s okay. Like you can make those changes, you can be flexible, you can wear what feels good to you and nobody’s watching. Nobody really, nobody really cares what you’re wearing sometimes. And, you know, I think that’s just like an inner dialogue that I learned with a lot of help to have with myself.Maureen: And in those moments, do you try on the outfit that you were originally thinking and then take it off? Or is it more like you see the outfit in your head and you’re like, I don’t even want to put it on? How does that feel?Traci: So it’s like, I’ll get out of the shower, I’ll get myself ready. And then I’ll look at my phone and I’ll look at the outfit that I planned and I’m just like, no. Yeah. Okay. No, it’s just not today. You know, we’re going to get tacos. I don’t need to wear this gorgeous little look to go get taco meat spilled all over me. It’s just, no, I’m a big vibes person. And when I feel it, I kind of just try to trust my gut and what it’s telling me to do.“No, it’s just not today. We’re going to get tacos. I don’t need to wear this gorgeous little look to go get taco meat spilled all over me…I’m a big vibes person. And when I feel it, I kind of just try to trust my gut and what it’s telling me to do.” - Traci LandyMaureen: Yeah. Thank God for our gut. I’d love to talk about how you decide what to buy and where and what not to buy or wear.Traci: I think I feel like my style evolution has really changed this a lot in my life. One of the things that really attracts me to a piece is colors. And it’s funny, because I’m not a very colorful dresser, but one thing that I really obsess over is the combinations of colors. I always say I’m a huge copycat. I love to see things and put my own twist on it or admire it and appreciate it and try to replicate it in my own way. I never sell myself as an expert or a stylist. I literally am like, I’m a civilian. I’m a mom. I’m just trying to look good. And I’m like, I’m the guinea pig. I’m taking what everyone’s talking about and seeing how I can work it in real life. A lot of what I do is I’ll find color combinations that I really like. And then I’ll focus on a piece or something. And I usually like to then go to Pinterest. Right. And I’ll look and see, like, how can I work this green sweater? And I’ll just search, you know, green sweater outfits. And I’m just kind of looking through them and I’ll sift through them. And any time I find that color that matches this combination that I start to like, then I just start saving it. Right. And then after a while, when I start to see for me, a big thing is like, is it versatile? Like, can I really use this piece? Because if it’s really just this one-trick pony, it’s not worth it for me to invest. Right. I don’t have endless dollars. Like I’m a school teacher, you know, like I’m a mom. And for me, it’s a real careful consideration that most of my friends and family think is absolutely insane. But I like to really just kind of luxuriate in the colors and see if they can work. And I think that’s part of why I love graphics and design so much. I think another thing has really been like for me, as far as buying is finding brands that I really like. And unfortunately, sometimes brands that I like are out of my price range. And I have to be okay with saying like, I can’t afford that, right? Like, I could look secondhand, I could wait, I can hope for a sale, but I think it’s coming to terms with like, where can I get what I’m looking for that’s a good quality, that’s in a range that I feel okay spending. Because there’s nothing that feels worse than overspending for something that doesn’t get its use for me. So with that, I’ve found some brands that I really gravitate to. Like, I’m waiting for J. Crew to call me, like, please. But no, I think I love to, you know, I feel like they really align with my style. I found over the years, for example, Madewell really aligns well with my style. But not only do they align with my style, they align with my budget and how much I’m willing to spend and how much I can spend. I’m also just a really big mood-based dresser. I joke about vibes, and a lot of when I get dressed and gravitate to certain pieces really just has to do with a feeling that it can evoke. And I think those are the biggest things.Maureen: I wanted to go back to color because I’m also very particular about color, and I’ll get kind of a color stuck in my brain and want to buy something in that color. Then I’ll buy the first version of it that I see that is the right proportion or whatever, and then I’ll be like, oh, that wasn’t how I wanted to wear that color. I want to wear that color in a different way, but I bought this thing and now I’m trying to use it. Is this a very me problem, or do you ever do that where you are so caught on a color that you’re not really thinking about how you want to use it and more about using it?Traci: Often. I think this color thing has been something I’ve always dealt with. I am a self-proclaimed Aquarius, and I love announcing to the world that I’m an Aquarius. So there’s this creative edge sometimes that I have, and when it comes to colors, I do something really similar. I’ll find a color and hyper-fixate on how much I love it—maybe it’s cobalt blue—and I just can’t stop thinking about it. Sometimes instead of reaching for the first one I find that I may not really love, I start thinking, I need a cobalt blue sweatshirt, I need a cobalt blue sweater. Then it’s like, okay, I want all these things, but how can I find them at the cheapest price? I go through this whole hamster wheel until I finally have to self-talk myself and say, stop. Do not think about this for a week, then come back to it with a clear mind.Maureen: No, that’s super fair. One thing I do is I’ll buy it in nail polish.Traci:Ooh, yeah. Maureen: That kind of helps me get unstuck a little bit.So we talked a little bit about body awareness, but are there any specific textures, fits, or styles that you gravitate towards because of how they feel on your body or how they make you feel?Traci: Do you mind if I segue a little bit to talk about my journey with body awareness? I felt like there were a couple of big shifts in my life that shaped when I became really aware of the skin I’m in. One of those is college athletics—I played lacrosse in college, and being an athlete very much defined who I was for a big portion of my life. When I think back on my college experience, that was the first time I became hyper-aware of my body. I was lucky to grow up in a home where that was never something I thought about. My parents were incredible. In college, being part of a team made me start not only seeing myself but looking at everyone else.Some things that contributed were a heavy, intense strength and conditioning program where we were Olympic lifting, getting big and strong. It was about who could lift more, which was celebrated. But there was also the weight component; they would measure body composition and clip, you know, love handles. Nobody did it to make us feel bad, but there were conversations about percentages, and mine was never great. We also had to announce what size sweatshirt we wanted—I always got a large while everyone else got small or extra small.I remember being one of the only players who didn’t want to take off my shirt on a trip to Australia because I was with women who were incredibly fit, and that just wasn’t my body type. From then, a long journey of comparing myself, not really loving myself, and wanting something I couldn’t have started. It’s taken a long time to reflect on that and how it shaped how I see myself in the world and how I model behaviors in front of my daughter. College athletics are intense, and you get feedback from all angles—people commenting, parents suggesting exercises. Sophomore year, my eating wasn’t great, I lost a lot of weight, and I looked great from the outside. I got the most positive feedback from the world around me, which taught me that positive attention could come at a personal cost.Just to say, everyone has a journey. We don’t just wake up one day and take outfit selfies loving ourselves. There’s a lot of work that goes into having the courage to do that. After having my kids, it was about trying to re-love my body and accept its changes. I wrote on Substack about my miscarriages and having to learn to love a body that let me down. Only in recent years am I overcoming that. When I think about what I like to wear, it’s important to understand the journey that got me here. Thinking about fabrics and textures—there were times I couldn’t look in the mirror without crying. I love to wear things that are comfortable; if something digs in, I won’t feel good. I love elastic waistbands, satin pants, high-waisted jeans. I would love to be a low-waisted girly—it looks cool—but for my body, high-waisted jeans and oversized clothing feel best. It’s not about not loving my body; it’s about what feels good. Comfort and how I feel in it really dictate what I gravitate to.“When I think about what I like to wear, it’s important to understand the journey that got me here.” - Traci LandyMaureen: There’s so much there. I wanted to go back quickly to your college experience. I personally practice Health At Every Size. For listeners—weight, size, and health are not always equated as we think. That [societal] oversimplification can be harmful, especially when how you feel internally differs from perception.Traci: Yeah. I think it’s about honoring your body, not just others’ perspectives. Safety isn’t only about what others think; it’s a balance. Fashion is also about expression and communication, not just comfort. So what I want the world to know based on what I’m wearing is that I am creative. It might sound unexciting, but it’s about showing that I’m more than a mother, wife, or teacher. I’ve grappled with who I am outside of those roles. I never wanted to lose the artistic, creative piece I discovered as an adult. “What I want the world to know—based on what I’m wearing—is that I am creative. It might sound unexciting, but it’s about showing that I’m more than a mother, wife, or teacher. I’ve grappled with who I am outside of those roles.” - Traci LandyTraci: When I get dressed, it’s a way to express that—to show I have passions beyond family and career, supported by family and friends. I also want to appear approachable. I love the little conversations with people about fashion—compliments, shared admiration—it’s opened doors for friendships and connections in adult life.Maureen: Yeah, I relate so hard. I can’t believe those words are exactly what I would say.You mentioned as you became an adult, you realized you had this creative and artistic passion. Are there any other ways outside of fashion that you dig in or utilize those skills?Tracy: It’s a great one. So I think writing is kind of a way that I’m able to do that. One of the things I love on my blog, which is like, I probably pay way too much attention to it on Substack, are graphics and images. I love design, and no, as far as design in my house, no, I’m not good at that, but when it comes to design, that is something I really enjoy. I started to see it in the classroom as a teacher when I was—yeah, like when I make my worksheets. I taught middle school for a really long time, and my classroom, I wish I had pictures, but it was like straight out of a Pinterest class. It was so intense, and I love color themes and when I would make worksheets, the way I wanted things formatted. I have some amazing colleagues that I work with every day, a couple of women, and they’re always cheering me on in this part of my life. One of the things they always do is they’ll make a worksheet, come up with an idea, and say, “Okay, Traci, make it pretty.” And I’m like, yeah, I got this. I’m changing the margins, and I think the more I started doing that and surrounding myself with people—some of these women included in my family—that were empowering me and saying, “You’re good at this, you should sell your worksheets, or you should write, or share, you should create an Instagram page or a TikTok,” which I can’t do, but just saying, “You should pursue this,” that was huge. I think that’s an area I do need to do a better job of finding other outlets to embrace it. I’ve wrestled with taking a painting class, and I don’t know why I haven’t just done it, but I know it’s something I really want to do and I think I’d really enjoy. It’s all new to me—literally, in the past, believe it or not, maybe under a year, I’ve really been growing into this. My whole first chunk of life was defined by athletics—this is who you are, your box, your niche, this is what you’re really good at. I never took the time to get to know myself and realize that I’m so much more than that. And I think that’s what this new chapter has been. Aside from adult coloring books, there’s more out there for me that I want, and I need to start taking the risks and seeking it out. Maureen: It’s crazy—I just bought an adult coloring book yesterday.Traci: So fun.Maureen: And I mean, I can only speak for myself, but one of the ways that can be hard in 2025 is the pressure to monetize our hobbies and turn these creative expressions into something else. Maybe I’m picking up on that from the suggestions people were giving me as well, and maybe the painting class. Does any part of that feel selfish or wrong if you’re not going to monetize it? I don’t want to put words in your mouth.Tracy: No, I think no, because for me, really, when I say it really is creative expression, I really mean that. I wrote a post about being on Instagram and struggling with content creation. I was comparing myself to everybody—why doesn’t anyone like my stuff? I was trying to engage with people and try, and it became this mind wrestle. My daughter came up one day while I was trying to make a reel, which I can’t do—I’m so bad at them. She watched me laughing and asked, “Can I see it?” We would watch them, and then she said, “Mommy, how many likes did you get?” I was like, what? She said, “How many likes and dislikes did you get?” I felt weird, like did I say something out loud, and I didn’t like the way it felt. I ended up deleting my Instagram—I was like, this isn’t for me, this doesn’t feel real, doesn’t feel good. I eventually created a really low-key new one, but it was a moment where I realized this doesn’t align with who I am right now and what I’m working on myself with. To go back to painting, I can see something and be like, this isn’t the right reason for me, it doesn’t feel good for my soul, and I can walk away. Sometimes I want to light it on fire, but I can quietly leave. Painting or something like that would just be purely a hobby. Sometimes what holds me back is time—I want to do it, but what has to give? Is it my workouts, which I need to feel good? Is it spending quality time coloring with my daughter? I just wish I had more hours in a day.Interviewer: Yeah. How is Substack, with likes and comments and gamification, different from Instagram?Tracy: It feels less saturated, more substance. Instagram moves too fast for me—I couldn’t keep up. There’s something about reading someone’s writing that slows you down and lets you absorb it. I show up with a genuine heart on any platform—that’s who I am, how I like to operate, being kind. On Substack, engagement feels more authentic. Comments feel real, like people saying, “This speaks to me,” or “Your writing feels like my inner dialogue.” It’s less competitive, more uplifting, and I feel really good there. I didn’t get that fulfillment on Instagram.Maureen: What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?Tracy: The most important thing is working on yourself first. For me, it was learning how to love myself, appreciate my body, and sharpen my mental health. It’s ongoing work. Then, find what attracts you—what catches your eye, whether colors, textures, or aesthetics. Start being aware of what you like, because in a world of algorithms and constant changes, it’s easy to forget what you genuinely like versus what you feel you should like. Another part is letting go of things that no longer serve you. I can be a big hoarder—jeans that I hope will fit or shirts that might come back in style. Building a wardrobe involves working on yourself first, then letting go of items that add pressure or no longer resonate, whether donating or thrifting. Also, observe the world—people, colors, art, flowers. Moments of presence are underrated. For example, my husband and I went to a concert and were waiting in a cafe, and I was just watching the people in the city, absorbing their creativity in dress, tattoos, piercings, hair—it was inspiring.Find brands that align with you, pieces that feel good and have multipurpose potential. For me, Pinterest helps figure out how to style something before investing. Apps like Indyx have helped me see my wardrobe as malleable, visualize what I have, what I need, and try new combinations. That combination of inner work, observation, and thoughtful curation has helped me build an intuitive wardrobe.Maureen: I love your suggestion about observing the world. I’m not a homebody, so I love soaking in inspiration. Thank you, Traci. This has been a delight. I resonate with so much of what you said. Where can people find you?Traci: You can find me on Substack, Rambling in Style by Traci and on Instagram. I always reply to comments or DMs. I’ve met really cool people there and look forward to connecting.Maureen: I’ll include your links in the show notes.Traci: Perfect, thank you so much.Maureen: Have a good one.Traci: Thank you, see ya.OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This week, Lee Alisha of Wearing on My Mind joins to share about her experience returning to self-confidence after loss and the role of bright color in showing her transformation! We also celebrate Lee’s recent completion of an MFA, discuss why writing on Substack is a breath of fresh, and how she decides what to buy and wear.Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeYou’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Maureen: Today’s guest bounded onto my Substack feed with joy, enthusiasm, and bright color. While she might be slightly newer to our Substack feeds, she’s been making style and beauty content on Instagram for a minute, which is equally as delightful as her writing style. Lee, welcome to the show.Lee: Thank you so much. Thank you for that introduction. It’s so sweet.Maureen: I love seeing a new creator come on to Substack and just have such a clear perspective, POV, and you certainly accomplished that.Lee: Thank you.Maureen: So with that, my first introduction to you was a post about your experience wearing vibrant colors over the summer and how that improved your self-esteem. For anyone who hasn’t read that newsletter yet, what changed and encouraged you to start showing up in that way?Lee: So I was actually maybe like a month and a half ago just looking through my camera roll and I noticed that most of my summer outfits—anytime I took a photo—it was some vibrant color or print. And I was like, I need to write about this because I didn’t realize how happy it was making me and how comfortable I felt in all those vibrant colors and everything.A few years ago, right when COVID happened, I was a junior in college. All my classes were online. I was isolated. I was grieving the loss of a loved one. So I was not connected to myself at all—you know, a lot of people weren’t during that time.And I started to not express myself anymore through the clothes that I was wearing. Prior to COVID and all that, I felt pretty confident in my skin and what I was wearing. My style has changed so much since then, but when COVID hit, I just started to hide myself. I hid my body. I was wearing more darker colors—nothing like the prints that I did this summer at all.And so, yeah, when I saw all the photos of myself from this summer, I wanted to write about it because it honestly surprised me that I wasn’t realizing that that self-confidence came back. And it reminded me of when we’re kids and we don’t care what anyone thinks and we’ll just wear whatever we want to wear. So, yeah.Maureen: Beautiful to hear that we can go through a period of kind of darkness and sadness and hiding, and sometimes we are lucky in the way that we can just find joy again without necessarily having to be super intentional about it. Sometimes it can just surprise us. And in that way, grief is non-linear and it’s surprising in all these ways.Were you shopping differently, or was it more just like you’d had these clothes beforehand and were just choosing to wear darker colors versus now choosing to wear bright colors? How was that materially different?Lee: That’s a good question. Some of the pieces I had, but a lot of them are new. I’ve been fortunate to work with some brands that have gifted me some items, so that has kind of propelled me out of my comfort zone—just working with different women-owned, small-owned brands.But personally, I don’t really know what it was. I just started to embrace things that maybe would have made me uncomfortable in the past, especially because I live in Florida. We had a very hot summer, and I was like, I can’t do the oversized dark shirt and leggings every day—I need to cool off. So I started to wear a lot more linen, and some of the linen pieces that I bought had prints or patterns and colors—it wasn’t just tan or white.So, you know, just making sure that I felt comfortable in extreme heat and also wanting to look cute in my own sense of style and everything.Maureen: I love that too, and this is one of the reasons that I have a podcast about this. Because I think sometimes it can feel like there’s only one way to do things.And I’m highly analytical—so when I’m shopping for my closet, nine times out of ten, it’s with extreme precision and intention and I overthink it. And I think what I’m hearing from what you’re saying is it was a little bit more organic and you were just kind of drawn toward these bright colors compared to when you were drawn toward darker colors.Am I oversimplifying that process, or was there more analytical decision-making behind that? Which, for the record, if it is very organic, I’m jealous.Lee: Right? Well, I’d say if I’m just shopping for everyday basics—like things that I can wear with five different outfits and remix—I may be a bit more analytical about that because I want to make sure it’ll last and I can get a lot of usage out of it. But, you know Like in that newsletter, I had this green caftan on. When I got that, I wasn’t like, “Yeah, I’m gonna wear this every single day.” You know what I mean? I was like, I know this is probably gonna be a piece that sits in the closet, but it makes me happy and I will wear it. But it’s not gonna be like an everyday item, you know?So I think the analytical, almost logical clothes-eye kind of goes out the window for me if it’s something I really, really like that may not be something I wear every day. Maureen: It’s awesome to give yourself permission to do that. That’s how we interject things that we didn’t even know that we wanted. Sometimes we’re just drawn to something like a moth to a flame.You also mentioned in the post there was a specific outfit that you wouldn’t have worn a few years ago. I think it was a little bit preppier or something like that. And I was just wondering—can you share more about maybe what changed your mind or how that change occurred, basically?Lee: I remember the dress you were talking about. I think it was the one where I didn’t have sleeves, and it had stripes. Yeah, so that was one of those linen pieces I was telling you about. I felt really cool in it, I didn’t get hot in that dress—it was a very comfortable piece of clothing.But a few years ago, I wouldn’t have worn it. Not because of the print or the color, but literally because of the arms—it didn’t have sleeves at all. And, you know, during COVID and isolation, I started to feel very aware of my body, but then also pick up little things that now I can look back and be like, I was being way too hard on myself.Like, I’m blessed to have this body and to be able, you know what I mean? But back then, I was just looking at my body and picking all these little things apart. And back then, I just did not like my arms out. I needed sleeves. I just wanted to be covered, you know?“I’m blessed to have this body” - Lee Alisha And so that piece—I love that dress so much today. I don’t have a second thought about my arms or anything. But like I said, that didn’t happen overnight, you know? Because I felt those insecurities like four or five years ago, and now it’s 2025, and I still have my moments and stuff. It’s not perfect, you know, but I just try to show up for myself and not be hard on myself, especially when it comes to what I’m putting on my body and how I feel, you know?Maureen: I know that you said you were grieving the loss of a loved one around that time, but it’s just crazy the way that COVID had such an impact on how we were all feeling.I also look back at pictures from a couple of years ago, and at the time I would look at those pictures and be horrified by my appearance. And it was just—like—totally normal. My body was so normal. And I just had this horrible lens on it.And now I look back at those pictures and I [see something really positive]. I see such a different version of myself. And for me, I would say partially that just comes with getting used to maybe looking different if your body’s changed.But also, I think there’s really something to what you’re saying about maybe it was just the COVID of it all — and how much time we had to just sit on our phones. I don’t know. Do you feel like that’s part of it?Lee: I mean, I kind of do, because I remember early days it was like, “Don’t go outside.” So it’s like, okay, well, I’m just going to sit inside. And sitting inside just became my normal, because like I said, all my classes were online. My classes continued to be remote until I graduated in 2022.So I was not on campus for almost a year and a half, almost two years. I just got comfortable with the four walls of my apartment—and I was like, it’s fine, it’s great, you know? That just became normal. Then, when it was time to go outside and see your friends and loved ones, that felt strange. You kind of want to hide yourself or just stay where you feel safe, you know?Maureen: I totally relate to that. I think that’s so fair. I mean, especially — I can’t even imagine college virtually. You sound very resilient and like you got through it and made the best of it, but I mean definitely, I think even now I’m still trying to figure out how to get myself out of the house sometimes.Because it still feels like—I don’t know, wrong sometimes. I get what you’re saying.Lee: Because when COVID first happened, I was like, “Oh, I am so happy to have online classes,” because I’m an introvert. I love having my own space. I was also a creative writing major, so I was like, I’m going to romanticize this. I get to sleep in, make my coffee, read my books, and do my English literature and stuff.But then, you know, a few months of that goes by and it does a number on you.But I see what you mean about going out now. I mean, I do think there’s a difference between, you know, really wanting to protect your peace and enjoy your own company—because I do that a lot today.I live in Tampa, and I’ve lived here for the past six or seven years. A few years ago, I could go downtown in like 30 minutes. It’d be a 30-minute drive. But now it could be like an hour because of the drivers and the amount of people here. Sometimes I just don’t want to deal with that.But that’s—you know—I don’t see that as me isolating myself. So I feel you on how sometimes it just feels hard to even go out now. But, you know, it could just be that you want to have your peace.Maureen: Totally. And it’s not black or white — it’s definitely about figuring out the right balance.Am I mistaken in congratulating you on your MFA?Lee: Yes, yes — I graduated last month!Maureen: Okay, oh my gosh, congratulations!Lee: Thank you.Maureen: How do you feel having that degree? How does that impact your outlook?Lee: I feel really good. I can’t say enough great things about the program. I went to the University of Georgia, and it was their narrative nonfiction program. I still talk to all my classmates who I graduated with and some of my professors — it was just an amazing experience.I’ve always wanted to write a personal essay collection, and that two-year program really gave me the skills but also the confidence to achieve that goal of mine. So I feel a lot more confident when I’m writing and doing my own thing.But that’s part of the reason why I do love Substack and writing about style — because a lot of the things I write on the side, the stuff I want to be in a book one day, can be very emotionally heavy. So doing these shorter-form posts about color and style and whatever else — that feels good. It’s nice to have that balance.But thank you for saying congrats. I’m still kind of in a grieving period, honestly, because I can’t believe it’s actually over.Maureen: That’s fair — and good for you for recognizing [the grief]! Sometimes when we get to the end of a big accomplishment, we’re like, “Why am I not magically happy?” And it’s like, oh — because maybe you actually liked the experience of going through it, having your friends around, all of that.Lee: Yeah, no, that’s so real.Maureen: So again, congrats — and again, welcome to Substack. Especially, it’s always nice to hear that professional writers are still using the platform — I say that without a professional writing degree myself.Lee: Girl, you don’t need a professional writing degree! I mean, I’ll be honest — when I started posting on Substack, I think it was last January. I was doing more like fashion roundups — like “this deal, that deal” — and I still like reading that kind of stuff.But I took a break for a while this year just to finish school and everything. Coming back to the platform and finding you and other writers — I’ve just felt very inspired. Because, I mean, everything that you publish, it’s like a personal essay — it’s stunning. And I love that.It’s nice seeing what other people have to say, and you can tell everyone’s writing with a lot of heart. That’s beautiful.Enjoying this interview? Subscribe now to be notified when future episodes drop! Or consider upgrading your subscription to support this work.Maureen: Yeah, I appreciate that. And same with your writing, right? I think this is a perfect segue — thank you.What’s really nice about writing on Substack in particular is that the long-form medium — you can do this on YouTube as well — but the long-form medium allows so much more complexity in why people are choosing what they buy.In broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy and where — and how do you decide what not to buy or where?Lee: So when deciding what to buy, if reviews are available, I love to look at reviews. And then also, there are certain brands that I’ve really liked in the past where I’m like, okay, I have to be careful today, because I don’t know if I’ll wash this item three times and then it’s just not doing it anymore.You know, like Gap, Banana Republic — even though I’ve been loving what both of them have been putting out lately — but I’m still like, yeah, you have that hesitance.Plus, since I don’t have a full-time job right now, I’m even more careful about where my money’s going, because I don’t want it to either not fit and I can’t return it, or it was a bit on the pricier side and it’s just not what I thought it would be.I try to just sit on things for a while and not do the impulse buy. Because a few years ago, I was always doing that. I’d go to Target every weekend because I love a good bargain, and I’d just look at everything. I haven’t been to Target in months now.So I just try to be careful — and also ask myself, you know, will I be able to wear this a lot? Can I wear it with other items? Is it versatile? And if it’s not—like some of those vibrant dresses I wrote about—then I ask myself, does this really make me happy? Do I want it because I like it, or because it looked good on someone else? I try to really hone in on my motivation for liking something.When it comes to what not to buy—honestly, if it’s out of budget, that’s usually the main thing. I’ll save a photo or a link and think, this is really pretty—maybe one day.Also, if I’m not sure something will fit my body type—I’m very curvy on the bottom—I tend to steer away, especially if it’s just a trend on social media. If it might not work for me, that’s okay. I try not to give too much energy to trends. I just observe and appreciate from afar.Maureen: Yeah, it’s always good to know what’s not for us.I guess the other question, kind of off that, is—do you ever feel like there’s such a thing as enough with clothing? Do you ever reach a place where you’re satisfied with what you have? Or is that still something you’re reaching for?I ask because I’ve gone through a lot of style transitions—mostly unintentional, as my body size and shape changed—and I still feel like I’m trying to get to some sort of “goal.” Have you ever experienced a feeling of enough or satisfaction?Lee: Totally, yeah. I’ve felt that before, but then I’ve also had moments where I realize I need new things. Like, during COVID, my body changed—I gained some weight—so I had to buy new clothes that fit this new body. And I was fine with that. I wasn’t going to wear clothes that didn’t feel good.But now, some of those clothes need replacing again, so it’s a cycle.At this point, if I look in my closet, I do feel like, this is enough—I have what I need. But there are always things I want. And honestly, social media feeds into that. Let’s be real—if we didn’t have magazines, trend forecasts, or constant content showing us what’s “in,” I think our wish lists would be much shorter.There are things I want, sure, but do I need them? No.Maureen: Yeah. And I ask that because you sound very level-headed and grounded when you talk about shopping and buying things. I wanted to acknowledge that, because like you said, there’s so much messaging out there telling us what we have isn’t enough—it’s such a trap.I guess I just wanted to see if I was reading you right, because you sound really at peace with what you have, and I think that’s amazing.Lee: Thank you, that’s really sweet. Honestly, I think it’s because I was laid off last year. Since then, I’ve been jumping from freelance position to freelance position, and being on a budget has forced me to hold myself accountable for my spending habits.When I had a full-time job, I’d justify little purchases as rewards. But now that I don’t have that steady income, I’ve had to chill out a bit.I also started creating fashion and beauty content after I was laid off, just because I had more time. But even with that, I’ve always wanted to stay true to myself. I never want to come across like I’m shouting at people—“you need this product or your skin will never look good”—because that’s just not me.There’s nothing wrong with creators who do that, but I never wanted to feel loud or pushy. And honestly, when you consume too much of that kind of content, you start believing you really do need all those things—which you probably don’t.So I try to stay intentional with what I create, and I think that’s carried over into how I shop and what I buy personally.Maureen: Yeah, and that’s so important—to know what you want to communicate as a creator. You’re doing that really effectively.So with that said—you mentioned earlier that being on Substack has been really inspiring for you. Knowing that you’re not necessarily writing about shopping right now, what’s inspiring or exciting you to write these days?Lee: Honestly, the free time I have now. No, but really—I was so excited to get back into Substack and just do my little blogging again. It feels therapeutic. I love putting everything together in the Substack CMS—the graphics, the layout, all of it.And lately, it’s been amazing connecting with so many new people. A few months ago, before you and I connected, my feed didn’t look the way it does now. Now it feels like people are really supporting each other, and that’s such a nice energy.Seeing that community makes me want to keep returning. And I think part of it, too, is trying to create a routine for myself—posting maybe once a week or every two weeks.You know, I had a really regimented school schedule, and I was so exhausted after graduating—happy, of course, but definitely tired. I needed a few weeks just to breathe.Doing short posts on Substack has really helped me feel like I can take steps toward my writing goals again—working on my book, writing on the side. So yeah, Substack has been really helpful.Maureen: Super cool. So, what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Lee: I’d say just stay true to yourself. We were talking earlier about that “fake it till you make it” mindset—wearing things outside your comfort zone—and I think that can work sometimes. But for me, whenever I tried to do that, I just ended up feeling uncomfortable.So my advice would be: start small. Don’t take it too seriously or feel like you need certain pieces to “complete” your wardrobe. Have fun with it, and forget the so-called fashion rules if you can. Whatever works for you will work for you.For example, when mid-rise and low-rise jeans came back, I thought, that’s great—love that for y’all—but I’m not doing that. I’m a high-waisted girl; that’s what feels best on me, and that’s okay.So yeah—just do what works for you and what makes you feel comfortable.Maureen: Yeah, totally. Well, thank you—this was really fun. Where can listeners find you?Lee: I’m on Instagram at @lealisha—that’s L-E-E-A-L-I-S-H-A. And my Substack is lealisha.substack.com. My newsletter is called Wearing on My Mind.Maureen: Perfect! This was so fun—thank you.Lee: Thank you!Maureen: I’ll make sure all your links are in the show notes so everyone can find you.Lee: Thank you so much.Share this episode with someone you think would enjoy it!OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks, see you next week. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

We’re in the middle of season two and there’s so much good yet to come! Upcoming episodes include fellow writers Lee Alisha, Traci Landy, and Anika Krueger— I cannot wait for you to hear them!Make sure you’re subscribed so you get notified when upcoming episodes drop, and consider sharing with someone you think would enjoy the show!Today’s episode features tastemaker, Parisian style enthusiast, film photographer, and all-around cool girl (who’s also really kind) OFELIA. We get into the differences between film and fashion, what it means to be a tastemaker, how dressing in Paris is different from dressing in Austin, and more. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeYou’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today’s guest is OFELIA, writer of All The Above on Substack. She has a discerning eye for fashion, film photography, and vibes. You’ve probably come across her What’s Everyone Wearing in Paris series, or my personal favorite, Outfits Inspired by Film, featuring her original images. Best of all, she’s a self-proclaimed outfit repeater and looks great while doing it. Ofelia, welcome to the show.Ofelia: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.Maureen: One of the key themes of All the Above is about your experience living in Paris, being from the U.S. originally. I’d love to hear how your style has changed between living in the U.S. and in Paris. How has the change of scenery impacted your style?Ofelia: Yeah, definitely. It’s changed quite a bit, I would say. For some additional context, I moved from Austin, Texas, where there’s maybe like two seasons—or one giant season and a couple months of mild winter. I didn’t really have to account for a lot of fluctuation. I mostly had to account for a lot of heat living in Austin.Moving to Paris, I now have to account for actually living in four different seasons, and even within a single season there’s a lot of fluctuation. I’ve had to get really good at layering, and I also have to account for how hot I’m going to get while walking places—which is something I hadn’t really had to think about before because I was driving everywhere and not moving as much.So now I start by opening the window every day and sticking my hand out to get a feel for the baseline temperature, then I either add or take off layers based on that. So, in terms of how much I’m wearing, it’s changed quite a bit.Maureen: That’s so interesting because, you know, I would think that the key change would be like, “I dress more fabulously now.” And I think you’d probably say that’s the case—but so much of what I just heard in that answer is about very practical changes. You’re more exposed to the elements, you’re walking more.It’s really interesting to talk about car culture and how that affects what we wear versus public transport culture. For me, I live in a car place right now in the Bay Area. And that means that, for example, when I was in Seattle recently, I wore Birkenstocks everywhere because the whole point was walking. But in the Bay Area, depending on what you’re doing, you’re just driving up to a restaurant. It’s really different.How do you find ways to be creative with that practical requirement versus just defaulting to what’s most convenient? Is there tension there at all?Ofelia: I think it really depends on the outdoor elements. One of my biggest struggles is the rain. I don’t have a solid rain shoe, and it’s actually really interesting—when we moved in December last year, I didn’t realize how rainy January and winter in general would be. It rained a lot.At the time, I only had a few pairs of shoes, and the ones I wore most were suede tennis shoes—not great for rain. So now, as we’re approaching that season again, I’m thinking, “Okay, I really need to get a rain shoe figured out.” I could wear tennis shoes, but my feet would get soaked. I still remember the feeling of my toes being wet outside!So yes, there is tension—but it’s mostly between utility and aesthetics. Like, how is this going to be cute while still functional?It’s interesting, though, because when we talk about comfort, I think that changes from person to person, but also within the same person from place to place.Before the pandemic, I would wear leggings, a sweater, and tennis shoes—that sounded comfortable to me. But in Paris, that’s frowned upon. I don’t really wear leggings outside of working out anymore.Now, when I think of comfort, I think, okay, I’m dressing down, but I’m still wearing jeans. Depending on the season, that might mean a flowy blouse or, like today, a sweater layered over a t-shirt.This morning I was wearing loafers, but I had to run an errand and changed into tennis shoes. The tension is still there, but I kind of balance it out throughout the day—appeasing one side of my brain at a time. Sometimes I’ll think, “My toes need a break,” so I’ll wear tennis shoes today so I can wear cute flats tomorrow.Maureen: Yeah, and maybe this is encouragement—but I’d love if you wrote a post about what Parisians wear in the rain! The Bay Area is surprisingly rainy—we really only have two seasons, the wet and the dry. When it rains, it pours. I’ve been trying to figure out my own rain situation, so very selfishly, I’d love a post on that.Ofelia: On it. I think I have more mental capacity this year to do it versus last year.Maureen: I have a bit of an ephemeral question, but I’m hoping you’ll go there with me. I’d love to talk about the intersection between your film photography and your interest in personal style. How do those two relate to you? And how do they differ?Ofelia: I think that’s actually a really interesting question. I think they both exist on a spectrum, and I’d say they’re quite similar in a few senses.Film photography has so many ranges within it, right? I’m not sure how familiar you are with film cameras, but you can buy a point-and-shoot, a disposable, or you can get really technical and buy manual cameras where you’re adjusting every tiny thing.And I think when we also think about style, it’s similar. We can hop on the trends and say, “I like that, I like that,” and that’s totally valid and fine. Or we can really discern what we actually like—what makes us feel interested or alive, what gives us that fun spark inside.For me, film photography does that—it gives me that same sense of discovery and play. So when I compare both mediums, they’re on the same spectrum. One is often more expensive and technical, while the other can be looser and more forgiving.Maureen: And which one feels more technical for you personally?Ofelia: For me, film photography is more technical.In terms of style, I guess let me backtrack a little. I didn’t really start thinking about how I was getting dressed until post-pandemic, which is interesting because that’s also when I started getting into film photography—around the same time.A while back, I wrote an article about what I called the Five Hierarchies of Fashion. At the very base level, you just need something to wear. Once that need is satisfied, you might start asking, “Do I actually like what I’m wearing?”Then, after that, you start thinking about the fabrics—how they feel on your body, how long they last. Once you’ve figured that out, maybe you start asking about sustainability practices.So, to me, I’ve reached a certain level of technicality within fashion. But compared to others, I’m not extremely technical yet—like when it comes to proportions or sleeve cuts, I’m still learning.So in that sense, film photography feels more technical for me because I dove deep into that world much more rapidly. But the technicality in fashion absolutely exists—it just depends on what people are interested in at a given moment. And those interests can shift drastically over the years.Maureen: I’d love your perspective on that “ramp up” between the two. From my point of view, clothing technicality feels extremely high-effort and high-resource to climb, in terms of that hierarchy you mentioned. How do you feel the two compare? Does one have a higher barrier to entry than the other? Or does it just depend on your level of interest?Ofelia: I think it depends on your level of interest.You could very easily start flirting with film photography by picking up a point-and-shoot camera—it’s a little more advanced than a disposable, but maybe it has a zoom lens or lets you turn the flash on and off. That kind of gets you in the mindset of thinking, Okay, I want a slightly better photo than a disposable, but I’m not quite ready for full manual yet.And fashion is similar. We can think, Okay, I want a white t-shirt. And that’s such a big, ongoing debate—what’s the best white t-shirt? But I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. It’s more like: What are you looking for? How do you want it to lay on your body? Do you want a baby tee? Do you want pointelle? Or even—do you want a white t-shirt at all?And so I think it’s really the curiosity around what you’re trying to get to that pushes and propels you in that direction.Maureen: Hmm, I love that. And such a good analogy too. You know, separately, I’ve been thinking about this same concept—I didn’t realize you had an amazing post on it! I’m going to read it right after and link it in the show notes.I’ve been thinking about that idea of “levels” too. I feel like personally I’m phasing up into a higher level of personal style. For a while, I was just getting dressed, putting clothes on my body—it felt very survival mode, with some moments of joy and self-actualization.But now I feel like I’m moving into a place of, oh, I really do like this, and I don’t connect with that, in a much more intentional and exciting way.You kind of alluded to where you feel that you are—are you trying to go further up the ranks, or do you feel like you’re in a place of stasis? How do you think about that for yourself?Ofelia: No, I don’t think personal style is ever-ending, to be honest. I think we all reach certain plateaus where we stay for a bit—we’re content where we are—and then something happens that propels us forward again.When we allow ourselves perspective, that’s when those big jumps happen. What I mean is, you get up and get dressed every day, and eventually you realize, okay, I have a solid outfit that I really love.For example, I love button-downs. I have so many ways I can style them. But then there comes a point where I think, I’ve worn a lot of button-downs lately… I need something else. How am I going to change this?And it doesn’t always have to be an insane shift. Like this year, brooches have been huge—and still are. I saw people pin them along the button placket or on sleeves. Just yesterday, I saw someone—I think her name is Michelle Lynn, though I might be getting that wrong—who added a brooch to the back of her button-down. It created this really interesting silhouette, and I thought, Whoa, I never would’ve thought of that, but I kind of want to try it.So I think I’m currently in between stages. I’m really happy with where I am, but it’s hard not to want to be here while also wanting to be there, if that makes sense. Sometimes I just wish someone could pull me up to the next level—but I know that’s not how it works.Another hard part for me is that I’m a very slow shopper. My wishlist is endless, but if you put money in front of me and said, “Make a decision,” I’d freeze unless I’d been thinking about it for a long time. It’s both a blessing and a curse.So, to answer your question, I’m happy where I am—but I’m thinking about what will propel me toward where I want to go next.Maureen: Yeah, and the brooch is a great example. Are there any other things that have caught your eye—things you’re thinking about trying? Is it more about styling, or specific garments?Ofelia: There are definitely a lot of garments I’d love to try. And honestly, I wish there were more rental options like Rent the Runway here in France. There are a few, but they’re mostly geared toward special occasions—like weddings or formal events.I’d love to be able to rent everyday pieces just to experiment. For example, I’m really fascinated by suede. I’d love to try—well, one day I’d love to own a suede jacket—but suede is such a personal material. You really have to try on a lot to find the right fit.I love it on other people, but I haven’t yet found one that makes me want to actually splurge, because it’s not cheap.But I think one thing that I’m fascinated by—and I actually did try, I just didn’t buy at that time—mules.Paloma Wool, the Spanish brand, had a pop-up in Paris during the early summer. And I actually went in because I just happened to be perusing—I love perusing—and this pair of sandals caught my eye. I went back before it closed, and they happened to have the mules. I was like, you know what, I’ll just try them on. And they were these beautiful mules, but they had calf hair on them.It’s not something that I would ever, ever consider on a website. But the fact that I tried it on and I was like, wait a second, this is actually really, really cool—since then, I’ve been fascinated with this idea of a mule, but like also the idea of a mule as a very cool statement piece, if that makes sense.Maureen: That’s awesome. I’m also thinking about how to… well, I came from the other direction of—I love calf hair and I’ve always loved calf hair—and I’m like, oh, how can I inject that into my style? I’m trying to figure out what garment to apply that on.But I think that’s really interesting. There are so many different ways to conceptualize our wish lists. For me, it’s like I usually have a very specific concept in mind and I’m trying to find the right puzzle piece. Maybe you feel that way too—or even the suede jacket, it sounds like, or suede in general—is kind of like your equivalent of that.And then there are also those little diamonds, you know, that really get the sparkle in our eye. There’s kind of a mix between those two that drives our taste and our excitement. Super interesting. I’m excited to see what happens for you with those.I also, on that vein—I would consider you a tastemaker, right? You have the most beautiful flat lays, your series about what people are wearing. And even just hearing your take on being a very slow shopper yourself—I can just speak from my perspective—sometimes I feel like I need to personally embody the taste that I have in order to feel like I am a tastemaker.How do you feel about that—the idea of embodying a taste versus having a taste and presenting it in a visual way? Is there tension for you between the two, or do you view them as separate?Ofelia: I think, you know, there is a little bit of tension because I don’t consider myself a tastemaker. So you calling me a tastemaker—that’s so surprising. I’m insanely flattered, to be honest.I think there is a bit of tension because maybe my idea of what a tastemaker is could be different. To me, a tastemaker is potentially ahead of the curve. They’re the ones maybe not dictating, but being interested in what’s fringe before it becomes popular. Obviously, fashion is cyclical, right? But they’re like the early adopters.When we talk about technology, they’re the early adopters. And I feel like I’m a slow adopter in that sense, just from my consumption point of view.But when I think of embodiment, I think the people who are the most authentic to themselves are those who wear their clothes and don’t let their clothes wear them—if that makes sense. It’s the individual, where they step into an outfit and it feels so much like them, regardless of where it falls within the trend cycle.And, you know, it’s actually really interesting because I lean very minimal, but I am absolutely enamored and fascinated by women who wear bold prints—especially women who mix prints a lot—because my brain does not function like that, you know? So to me, I’m like, they are the tastemakers. They are the really cool people.So maybe, to me, a tastemaker is someone who is the opposite of what I am.Yeah, I think I need to sit with that one more.Maureen: Well, I heard this quote a while ago that said, “When you’re an artist, you’re refining your art to a degree where you hope that it looks like someone else made it.” Like, it’s not going to be good enough until it doesn’t look like it was mine.And I wonder if there’s a little bit of that tension here, where—certainly I don’t view myself as a tastemaker—but I put that out into the ether as something I wanted. And then someone was like, “I think of you as one.” And I was like, what?Even just in our conversation, it’s the same kind of idea. To me, you’re a tastemaker not because you’re cutting edge, but because you’re extremely discerning and you have a very clear point of view of what you think is stylish and tasteful for you. And to me, that’s taste-making—because of the restraint.I’m not saying my definition is right or yours is right or wrong—I like that they’re different.Ofelia:I actually love the quote you brought up, and I think it healed many parts of me that were potentially broken. I very much agree with that quote, especially from my photography point of view.I am so hypercritical of what I put out there. Sometimes it’s a struggle to share my work or even to write articles about style where I’m featured—like “What I Wore in Paris”—because I often think, well, what if it’s boring? What if no one likes it?And I have to push myself to go back to, Why did I start writing? Why did I start photography? Why did I start sharing? It’s because I wanted to. I wanted to put my voice out there. And if I like it, if I felt good wearing that outfit—who cares what Sally, Sue, and Betty down the street think, you know?I think the theme of this entire conversation is going to be tension. It actually makes me think of something—whenever I’m walking down the street with my husband, my brain just kind of turns off. Like, you know that gif of the little penguin walking? That’s me with my husband. My brain turns off, I’m just following him wherever we’re going.And he’s like, “Do you notice all the people that stare at you when we’re walking down the street?” And I’m like, “No, I don’t.” And he’s like, “Yeah. It’s men and women.” And I’m like, “Oh, I’ve never really noticed.” And he’s like, “Yeah, a lot of people turn and look at you.”And it’s really interesting because my first response is, Why are they doing that? Then I think, Is there something on my outfit? Do I have toilet paper on my shoe? It’s so interesting how your brain just wants to bring you down several notches while the rest of the world sees you in such a different light.That kind of reminds me of that quote—it’s like, we want to be perceived so differently from our own point of view. But when other people recognize us for who we are, it’s like, wait a second, what’s going on here?Maureen: Mm-hmm. I think this, to me, is a healing conversation too. Because for so much of my life, I’ve taken in fashion content by other people. And yes, you can write about insecurity, you can express uncertainty—but having a larger discussion about is this good enough? Am I good enough? Is the outfit good enough?—that’s so real.You didn’t say those exact words, but I think that’s the core of the discussion: this feeling of enoughness. What is enough?And when you’re a passive consumer of other people’s fashion or personal style content, it can be hard not to assume it’s always sunshine and rainbows and this confident glow that’s just always there. But maybe that’s not the case for everyone. Maybe some people do have that.But I really appreciate you sharing that—it’s not always super easy.Ofelia: It’s not — and I’m sure everyone, even the people who we think have it all together, have scenarios like this, or at least days, at a minimum. But definitely, they’ve experienced that before.Maureen: Well, and just to reiterate, I’ve gotten that perspective from you — and I mean that in a very genuine, “I’m inspired by you” way. And so it is very easy to put on those rose-colored glasses and say, oh, it must be easy for her.And to that point, I’m sure I am thinking of other creators too. But, you know, even within this conversation, I’d love to talk a little bit more about your personal style and how you choose what to buy and wear.You know, we talked about being a slow adopter — I’m also a slow adopter, so I relate. But how do you decide what to buy and what not to buy? Or it sounds like mostly what not to buy.Ofelia: What not to buy!So, I actually keep — something that I started a long time ago — two types of wish lists. Because I’m a very practical shopper, I’ll say. There’s the I need this list versus the oh, that was kind of cool, that was intriguing to me list.And I love to peruse and look at websites and even walk into stores, touch things and feel things, and really immerse myself in the experience. Based off of that, things shift — maybe they move on or off the list. It’s like this little teeter-totter situation.And then I think, also, when I experience a great amount of tension, that’s when purchases happen for me.So I assure you, probably in the next few months, I will have some sort of rain shoe on my feet. At this point, for example, I haven’t tried them on yet, but I am considering Salomons because they have a waterproof version. I have to actually do a little more research on that. And it’s something I’ve resisted for a long time, but I was like, okay, if this is what’s going to get me to the next step — potentially a different type of rain shoe — then that’s the direction I need to go.But in terms of what I typically buy, those have been scenarios where I’m like, I really need a trench coat. I really need a trench coat. So that was one of my purchases last fall, and I have worn that trench coat so, so much. It’s one of my favorite purchases I’ve made.And for example, I kid you not, I’ve probably tried on over 20 trench coats.Maureen: I believe you!Ofelia: I don’t recommend that!And actually, I did a lot of trying on in Paris when we were here looking for an apartment, thinking like, okay, well, I’m going to find one. Where else am I going to find one in the fall? In Paris!Turns out, I found it literally close to home. I went home, tried on something that I saw on the rack, and I was like, I’ve been in this store hundreds of times — why have I never even considered it?And so I think tension — in terms of how much I think of something — really dictates purchasing for me.And then, in terms of the fun wishlist — and this is something I’m trying to do for myself — every time I hit a thousand new subscribers on Substack, I buy myself a fun gift.So when I hit my first thousand, I bought myself a — like, I don’t like the name Butter Yellow, but it’s called Butter Yellow…Maureen: Rebrand it.Ofelia: Rebrand Butter Yellow!Maureen: Gosh. Do you have a word for it?Ofelia: Banana Yellow? No, it’s horrible. Just a light yellow.I bought a light yellow, kind of collarless jacket. And is it the most practical color? No. Was there a black option? Yes. But what gave me joy was the color yellow.So I bought it. And I’ve worn it to dinner, I’ve worn it just around town doing nothing — and it just makes me happy.And it reminds me of like, oh, I bought this when I hit a thousand subscribers. And so I told myself that every time I hit that milestone, I’m going to buy myself something fun. And so I kind of go to the other list and look — okay, well, what is giving me that energetic feel of a purchase that doesn’t feel like I need it?I think that’s the way I teeter and totter between the two. But yes, I don’t buy a lot, actually. And I think it’s just because I try something on and then I’m like, ah, that’s not what I had in mind. It just doesn’t fit the way I thought it did. Or maybe I find something else, or I fall in love with something else that’s similar. So, yeah.Maureen: I love the Salomon idea — going back, like, with a trench? I don’t know, I think that could be cool.Ofelia: Right? I’m warming up to the idea. I’m trying to decide — I need to go in and look at the colors. I know white is the classic. I don’t think I’d want black. But if there was a brown tone, that could work. That could potentially work. But stay tuned — we’ll see.Maureen: I bought a pair this summer — they’re hiking ones. I actually wear them to hike, that’s why I bought them. But I definitely have had a few moments where I’m like, ooh, these are very nice. They are reasonably styled, you know what I mean? Like they have a form factor to them that I find interesting.And now sometimes I’m like, oh, do I need a beige pair with the little red tabs?Ofelia: Yes! That could be cool, actually.Maureen: I don’t know — just throwing it out there.Ofelia: I’ve been working on a “What brands Parisians are wearing” article, and Salomons are one of them. They are wearing those.Maureen: You know, I’m excited to read that one as well.So let’s talk about body awareness. This is kind of the concept of embodiment — slightly different from how we were talking about it earlier — more about how things feel on our bodies. How do we feel when we wear specific textures, fits, or styles? Are there things that you gravitate towards or away from because of how they make you feel or feel on your body?Ofelia: think, in essence, I gravitate toward things that bring ease into my life.For example — two contradicting things (they’re both dresses, but in my mind, they’re different). I love smocked-top dresses in the summer. One, I hope it’s okay to say, I don’t like wearing a bra in the summer. So I like the idea of just putting something on — and so far, I’ve been fortunate enough that it works.And also, having lived in stupid hot weather for so long, any additional layer was just too much. So I still go back to that — the ease of throwing something on in the summer makes me feel put together. Especially when it’s hot outside and your senses are overloaded.On the flip side — and it also gives me ease — last summer, I bought a knit dress. It’s not body-con, but it does hug your curves. I remember I was trying something else on in the store and the sales associate brought it to me. I told her, I’m not going to like this.Because I have hips — things fit me differently compared to someone else who doesn’t. And I just knew I wasn’t going to like it. But she said, just try it on.So I did. And I kid you not — I gasped. I was shocked at how beautiful I felt in that dress.And I think it had to do with the weight of the cotton. It lays beautifully — it doesn’t contract or cling. It still lets you breathe and move, even while it shows your shape. And I thought, wow, I’ve never felt this beautiful in a dress that was seemingly this tight.So I think ease has a lot to do with that — especially in summer.But also in winter — especially fall/winter, when you’re often covered by outer layers — I’m most likely in jeans, a t-shirt, and a sweater. There’s nothing necessarily groundbreaking about that, unless you have a really cool sweater that maybe has armholes, or you can tie it a certain way.So I also gravitate toward pieces that give me ease and make me feel put together, even when I’m doing something repetitive.And — unfortunately or fortunately for me — I really love the feel and fit of vintage Levi’s. I own 501s and 505s. They’re not cheap, and they take a long time to find the right pair. But I love that you can’t rely on the label.I have two different pairs — technically different styles, different sizes — and I never once thought about that. Growing up, I was very fixated on fitting into a specific size because a company told me I needed to. So I love that the illusion of that is gone — now I just look for what fits me.And I don’t know what voodoo they put in those jeans, but the fit is just fantastic. Maybe it’s the denim they used back then.Maureen: When it’s that perfect amount of wear — it’s worn in but not saggy?Ofelia: Exactly. In the denim specifically, yes.Maureen: And I think you mentioned something about versatility — like wearing something day in, day out. Is that a form of ease for you, being able to wear something without getting sick of it? Or is it also about how it functions in your life?Ofelia: Yeah — yes, I think it has to do with versatility too.When I think about the clothes I wear most, it’s always the ones that fit more than one scenario — or silhouettes that adapt to different ones. I love a wide-leg jean, but I love them even more with a pointy shoe.When I wear a wide-leg jean — and I only own one type of them — I haven’t yet tested out other pairings. But I find that I feel best when there’s a pointed shoe involved.And when there isn’t, I don’t love it — even though I love that piece in another scenario. If that makes sense.Maureen: I find that so interesting — where our particular point of view and our body and how we want our body to look comes into play. You know, going back to the film photography metaphor — one of the big differences I’d say between film as an art expression versus how we dress ourselves as a creative expression is that film doesn’t reflect our body image or how we feel about our bodies.And I’m not saying you’re talking about your body, but there is an aesthetic preference — like, for example, with the pointed-toe shoe for how you want to wear a wide leg.For me, the difference with film is that it’s less personal. With clothing, it’s much harder to nail because it’s so tied to how we view ourselves and how we want to be perceived. A photograph can be part of us, but it’s not connected to how we feel in our bodies.And going back to the wide-leg pant example — I personally like how wide-leg pants look with any type of shoe on me. I think it’s fascinating how we can have the same item but different aesthetic preferences for how it looks on us versus someone else.Like, for example, I love how a straight-leg pant looks on other people with a sneaker, but I hate that combination on me. And instead, I love a wide-leg pant with a sneaker — because you can’t see it.Ofelia: Yeah, because the sneaker disappears.Maureen: Exactly! So again, there’s that tension between what we like on ourselves versus what we like on others — and how we make sense of that.Ofelia: 100%. And it actually reminds me of something Heather Hurst said a long time ago in one of her videos. She was trying on a ton of different jeans, and everyone in the comments was like, “Oh, what straight-leg jean is that?” And she said, “It’s actually a bootcut.”You know, it’s like — to you, it’s perceived as one thing, but on my body it gives the illusion of something else. And that really stuck with me. It’s this idea that we need to lean into what we feel good in — not what something is labeled as, or what it’s “supposed” to be.Like, “Oh, I need to buy this because it’s a straight leg,” or “I should wear that because it’s trendy.” No. It’s really about what works for you.And I also think we’re way more critical of ourselves than others are of us. Like, I’m sure if I showed up to your house in a wide-leg jean and sneakers, you’d be like, “That’s fabulous.” But I’d be like, “I’m so sorry, I just ran out the door and this is all I had.”I think that’s super fair too — because we’re all moving within our own little “fashion hierarchy.” Maybe for you, a wide-leg pant with a sneaker is just like — “these are clothes.” But for me, that combination might feel more elevated.And neither one is wrong. They just mean different things to us. And I think that’s kind of amazing, actually.Maureen: Yeah— that’s beautifully said. And I think they should mean different things, because that means we’re comparing ourselves only to our own standard, not someone else’s.Ofelia: Exactly. Because we’ll fail every time if we measure ourselves by someone else’s standard.Maureen: A thousand percent.So, what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Ofelia: I think, generally, you should start by figuring out what you like and don’t like. And one great way to do that — actually, I have two — is to take a picture every day and write down what you liked or didn’t like about what you wore.And I don’t mean just how it looked, but how it felt. You can absolutely note if something flatters a certain part of your body or not, but try not to tear yourself down in that process. You want to build yourself up.Approach it curiously — like, “What can I learn from this outfit today? What did I like? What didn’t I?”Because one of the biggest impulses we have is to go out and buy something new. But I’d say — don’t do that right away. Sit with your closet. Work within that tension.One thing I did years ago was hang all my hangers backward — so when I took something off, I had to unhook it the other way. After a month or two, anything still hanging backward meant I hadn’t worn it.Now, you can use wardrobe-tracking apps like Indyx, but I’m a very visual person, so seeing it in my closet was really powerful.Then, I’d take those unworn pieces off the hangers, put them in a black bag, and leave it in the corner of my closet for a month or two. If I didn’t think about any of those pieces during that time — I wouldn’t even open the bag. I’d just donate it or give it to a friend to sell.And that really helped me let go. I honestly can’t tell you a single thing that was in those bags I donated years ago. Not one thing.So, to me, that says those items were just taking up space — in my closet and in my mind.Once you’ve created enough space — physically and mentally — then you can start rendezvousing with new pieces out in the world.Maureen: Such good advice — and hard advice to actually follow. It’s tough, respectfully. But you’re so right. It is important to sit with the clothes we already have and learn from them before we spend all of our money and time elsewhere.Thank you so much, Ofelia. This was lovely. Where can listeners find you?Ofelia: You can find me on All The Above on Substack. I’m also on Instagram, TikTok, and I’m sometimes pinning things on Pinterest. I believe my username for all of them is just @ofeliarig.Maureen: Cool handle.Ofelia: I hope you come hang out.Maureen: Awesome. I’ll make sure to link to all of those in the show notes. Thank you again for joining me — this was a delight.Ofelia: Thank you so much for having me.OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks, see you next week. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Today’s episode is a fun one, featuring a very popular content creator on Instagram—who may be less well known on Substack. She’s a real treat. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeYou’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today’s guest is Cara Wengen, aka plus size Zoë Kravitz, which is obviously iconic. She’s a big thrifter, works in an art gallery, major, and has the best taste in music. Welcome to the show, Cara.Cara: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here.Maureen: Likewise, I’m excited to talk to you. You just kind of recently barreled in, in the absolute best way, through my Instagram feed. And I was like—hold on, I need to know this person. She needs to come on the podcast. Everyone needs to know about what she’s doing. So I’m so glad that you said yes.I’d just love to really kick us off with your content creation origin story. What got you to start posting your outfits online? I know it’s kind of a scary thing.Cara: Yeah, so I think probably very similarly to many other people, I was just kind of scrolling. I don’t want to say addicted to TikTok, but using TikTok frequently and Instagram frequently and seeing these people who are getting PR sent to them—like free stuff.And I was like, mail is so cool in general. Like when you get a personalized letter, you’re like, this is awesome. Imagine getting clothing that you like sent to you or shoes or jewelry. And I was like, I want that to happen to me. So for that reason alone, I was like, I’m just going to start posting.So that was probably like 2023. I was dabbling, just kind of casually posting once in a while. And then I made a pact to myself: in January of 2024, my New Year’s resolution was I’m going to post a video a day. Might miss some days, if that happens, that’s cool. But I’m going to post nonstop for all of 2024 and just see what happens.And that’s honestly how it started. I started with outfit videos and then a lot of people were asking where I got my clothes and how I was finding them, and that turned into more thrifting videos, which is really my niche little corner of the internet. So it’s been wonderful. I’ve created an incredible community of people, and that is really the gift of it all. It’s not the PR, it’s the people. But yeah, that’s why I started.Maureen: Yeah. And what’s the experience been like to actually be posting and being online? How does it feel?Cara: Yeah. So I would say that at first, when I first got started and really started pouring effort into creating content, it was overwhelming. You know, I didn’t understand how to use the platforms, how to edit. I wasn’t in like a rhythm of filming and I kind of got burnt out.And I feel like that happens to a lot of creators when they first start out. They’re like, oh, I’m gonna do all of this stuff and keep going and going and going, and then nothing’s gonna happen, so I’m just gonna give up. And if that doesn’t happen to everybody, that’s amazing, but a lot of the people that I’ve spoken to, that happens to.So that was really frustrating at first, and I just kind of soldiered through it, brought those concerns to the community of people that were actually cheering me on every single day. And they were like, just keep going, just keep doing it. And that’s what I’ve been doing, and that’s the mentality I’ve had.Instead of killing myself trying to create content, I kind of have now found a way to incorporate it into my everyday life. So I have a routine. I film my outfit video in the same location every day, same time. If I’m going thrifting, I automatically have my little tripod and I’m filming everything. Everything is content for me now, which has really changed the way that I’m interacting with creating content.Editing gets a lot easier after you know how to do it—that’s probably one of the hardest things to learn. And then also just communicating with people and engaging, that’s important too. And I think that setting time limits for yourself for that is also really important, because I think it’s really easy to get caught up in, “Oh, I have to reply to every single comment.” You should, you should, you know, for your sake and your page—but I think also you need to get out of the online world and into your real life a lot.That’s just something that I had to kind of learn along the way and along the journey as well.Maureen: It’s like set time limits for yourself to do those interactions and that engagement. And I wanted to ask you about this because, you know, as a creator myself in different ways, I find so many parallels with the experience of writing content with the experience of personal style.In the way that you have to try new things, especially if you want your personal style to move in a new direction or if you’re trying to push yourself out of your comfort zone—it can take time to get used to. And so I just think it’s really fun to see the comparison, and not just talk about personal style all the time, because I think it’s good to have inspiration from everywhere.So I guess I’m curious—with that disclaimer—how, if anything, do you think your personal style has changed through being a content creator? Or do you feel that it’s pretty similar?Cara: Yeah, no, my style has definitely changed. And I attest that to the fact of documentation. Literally, that was my pact to myself for 2024: every day I’m waking up and posting a video. So every day I have footage of myself on camera. And in doing that, you kind of see—oh, that looks good (or what I think looks good, because that’s all relative). Or, oh, I can really see the way that I’m more confident in this outfit versus that outfit. Why is that?You notice things like, oh, I’m wearing this skirt in a lot of videos—that must be one of my staple items that I’m reaching for all the time. Those things just kind of naturally happen. It’s been super interesting, because pre-documentation, my style was just kind of all over the place. So if anything, it’s really helped me hone in on what I prefer to wear.And also I get inspired by other content creators and celebrities, because I’m so online that I’m exposed to more—which is really cool. Like, I’ll see something and think, “Ooh, I like that. I would have never thought to do that, but let me see if I can go thrift that.” And it’s just been really fun.If anything, I just feel more like myself now than ever before, which is really, really cool.Maureen: I want to stick on that for a second. What does it mean to feel like yourself? Maybe an example or a moment—you mentioned looking back at videos and noticing that you’re more confident in a particular outfit versus another. What does that confidence look like to you in the video? How can you see it now in a way that maybe you didn’t see in the moment?Cara: Yeah, I think it’s overall body posture—or the way I’m looking at myself in the camera. Because I don’t always film with the back camera, even though you’re “supposed” to. I still use my front camera a lot, so I’m literally looking at a mirror of myself. And I can tell—in certain looks—I’m feeling myself more.Like, you know when you’re feeling yourself and when you’re not. There are certain moments where I’m like, “Oh, I’m really working this.” And I don’t mean that in a cocky way, I mean it in a very reflective, real-time way, like: wow, you’re really feeling yourself.That’s been cool and interesting, because especially as somebody who lives in a larger body, I normally wouldn’t put on a tight shirt and think, “I feel great about myself.” But then when I’m reacting in real time to the footage of myself, I’m like, “No, I’m actually feeling myself. This feels good.”And it kind of makes you think—maybe I’ve been doing this wrong the whole time. Like, it doesn’t matter what size I am. I can wear whatever I want as long as I feel good, it’s comfortable, and it’s what I like. That’s all that matters.Maureen: Yeah. I mean, personally, I’m struggling with that right now, so I’d love to talk about it more—these limiting beliefs about what we can and cannot wear based on what our body looks like. Or even more than that—for me, it’s about what we’re used to seeing or not seeing.And for me personally—and I mean this with no pressure, only gratitude—watching you wear just the best things (and just looking cool, in my subjective perspective) has been encouraging. And in your subjective perspective, I can feel when you’re feeling yourself.It’s been really beautiful to see your work and what you’re wearing. I feel very encouraged, because there are some things I’ve told myself not to wear. And I’m actively looking for examples that tell me otherwise, and then trying to experience that myself.Maureen: I wanted to go back to what you were saying about maybe in the past you wouldn’t have wanted to wear a particular type of tight t-shirt or something like that. Can you walk me through—if you can think of it—the experience of getting comfortable with that? Like, let’s say you just wore it one time. Did you immediately feel comfortable, or was it something you had to try over and over again? What was that like?Cara: Yeah, it’s definitely not immediate. I would say that, just like you mentioned, seeing other people be so okay with styling pieces they might not necessarily be “told” to pick—that helps. Like, you see another size 16 wearing a little baby tee and you think, “Why can’t I do that?” So you try it, and at first you’re like, “Maybe this isn’t right.” Then you do it again, and you’re like, “No, I think it could be good.” Then you find your perfect baby tee and you’re like, “Oh no, this is me.”So it’s not quick or immediate. Even now, if I wake up and put on a baby tee, it just might not be a baby tee kind of day. And that’s okay too. You just have to be kinder to yourself and realize that’s part of growing into being comfortable with your body.I’m 33, turning 34 this month, and it’s still a battle I think I’ll face the rest of my life. But I’m at a point where I’m very happy with my body no matter what I’m wearing, because I know I’m healthy, and I know this is the size I’m supposed to be. Instead of trying to negate that, I’ve learned to be nicer to myself and say, “Okay, this is what I look like. And that’s great.”I’ve gotten so many messages since the big Chloë Sevigny and Zoë Kravitz recreations from girls saying, “Oh my gosh, thank you for doing this. It’s so good to see these clothes on a larger body. You’ve inspired me.” Hearing that is such a reminder that I’m not alone—I’ve never been alone. So many people are going through the same thing. Let’s band together, gas each other up, and just not care—as long as you feel good and comfortable, that’s really what matters.Of course, there will always be people who say, “You shouldn’t be wearing that top. You shouldn’t be wearing that baby tee.” And that’s fine. They don’t have to agree with the fact that it looks great on me—I know it does. So I guess the long-winded answer is: just wear it. Even if it feels wrong at first, believe that it’s right, and eventually, you’ll get there.Maureen: Part of the reason I wanted to talk through this with you is I recently wrote about barriers to dressing intuitively. The idea is that your body can tell you what does and doesn’t feel comfortable or right for you. I wanted to shed light on the fact that sometimes your body can tell you something doesn’t feel safe just because it’s new. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not something you want—or could want—in the future.And that’s something I’m working on right now: how to know the line between “my body tells me not to do this because I’m not used to it” versus “this really isn’t something I want.” I may need to work on that for a while. But hearing you talk about it makes me feel less alone.Cara: Not at all. There’ve been so many moments like that in my life where I’ve questioned and then questioned again. And sometimes, those are pieces I just shouldn’t be wearing. Like, if I’m fussing with something too much, I don’t want to wear it. I don’t want it on my body. That happens.But if the hesitation comes from society saying I shouldn’t wear something, versus what I actually want to wear—that just takes testing the waters.Maureen: Yeah, yeah. Are there any other examples you can think of, where you’ve learned something actually isn’t a good fit for you? Even if you’d love to wear it, it just doesn’t really work for you?Cara: Yeah, absolutely. I would love nothing more than to be able to wear like a slinky little backless dress and like have to wear no bra or no tape or no like plastic things on my chest to get through that. That’s something I really struggle with. I see so many, even curvy girls, who are wearing, like, backless dresses and looking so unbelievably good. I just can’t do that because I have a larger chest. I need the proper support, and to be able to achieve that look and have the proper support, I end up, like, hurting myself or, like, ripping the skin off my chest, you know?So I think that’s definitely one of those style moments that’s just not for me. No matter how hard I try, no matter what special products get invented to magically hold the girls where they’re supposed to go. So that’s definitely, yeah, that’s definitely a thing for me is a little backless number.Maureen: Yeah, I get it. I mean, we do have to have those limits where we’re listening to, oh, this really doesn’t feel good. Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to have tape on my chest, unfortunately. That makes sense to me.Going back to, you know, you were saying that you can tell when you’re feeling yourself in your outfit. And that’s totally coming across. Like, you just seem to be having so much fun getting dressed. How are you feeling about getting dressed? Like, is it fun? Is it just something that you’re enjoying? Like, what’s your current relationship to your closet or clothing in general?Cara: Yeah, no, I’m definitely having fun getting dressed. I love waking up every, it’s like every day is a new opportunity to just like be whoever I want to be. I’m not one of those people who plans out their outfits for the whole week. I actually envy those people because that would make my life so much easier. I think that’s so cool when people can do that.I just can’t do that because I have to wake up, like you’re saying, and really dress intuitively, like see what I want to feel. Oh, I don’t want that to touch my skin or, oh, yeah, okay, I’m okay with something tight today. So I love waking up every morning and like picking an outfit. And sometimes what I’ll do is just scroll Pinterest when I’m drinking my coffee in the morning and be like, oh, I’m going to try that layer or like, oh, I really like this color combo. So it’s like a fun kind of creative game for me at this point.Um, and I want to just keep doing it. I just like, I love getting dressed even, even on the days when I’m just like going to the flea market at seven o’clock in the morning, I’m still like putting some thought into my clothes. And that’s really fun because before, I mean, I would, I think I go through lulls as well.And I think content creation has helped me stay out of the lull because there’s almost like a, not have to, but an expectation of getting dressed. And I kind of love that because it like has forced me. Whereas before I might just throw on like an oversized t-shirt and a pair of cutoffs. Like that’s still cool. And that still might be my outfit of choice, but like, I’m going to think about it a little bit more.So yeah, I’m having a great time getting dressed in the morning. I think everybody should have a great time getting dressed in the morning.Maureen: I hope that too. I don’t know that that’s the case, but I would love for more people to experience that.What would you say is the difference between, you know, like you mentioned, sometimes you want to wear an oversized t-shirt and cutoffs, and that’s a choice. What’s the difference between making that choice versus just like maybe the alternative, like just putting it on out of ease or something like that, what is the difference in either the mindset or the experience of wearing the clothes in either of those situations where you may be wearing the same outfit, but the experience of choosing to wear it is different?Cara: I think there’s a couple different factors. I mean, for me, probably the number one difference between bad outfit two different ways is the way I’m feeling about myself or my mood or, you know, if it’s a good day or a bad day, because we all have those.So, you know, I think that could be considered a comfort outfit in some situations. And I would just then pair it with like some burks and not do my hair, you know. But if it’s a good day, maybe I put that on with some cowboy boots and a crocheted little handkerchief, you know. So like I think it just depends on my mood, how I’m feeling about myself, how I’m feeling about my body because you know as women we’re on a cycle so like our hormones are designed to kind of make us feel a certain way and sometimes you just don’t, you just can’t do it, you just can’t get excited about getting dressed.But in those situations I always say you should have a comfort outfit or a comfort look and that has also been something that’s extremely helpful to me as somebody who just wakes up and gets dressed every morning and doesn’t plan out my outfits because I know like okay if I put that on I’m going to feel good regardless of what I feel and my mood is today I’m going to feel good in that outfit.So love that. It’s good to have that comfort blanket outfit. You need it. Everybody needs it. Everybody needs at least, and if it’s not an outfit, it’s comfort pieces. Like, oh, I know that skirt is really comfortable. It’s soft on my skin. It looks good on me no matter if it’s a good day or bad day. And it goes with every top I have. You know, like pieces like that are so important.So I recommend everybody has a top, a bottom, and a jacket that makes them feel that way or a sweater or something.Maureen: Jackets are hard for me. I never find jackets I like. They always ruin my outfit.Cara: See, I’m the opposite. I’m like, put a jacket on, it makes it. I’m like, this is my little cocoon of happiness.Maureen: That’s so interesting. Everybody’s different. I also selfishly love that you talked about accessories changing the outfit because I feel like accessories are everything. The best things that I have in my closet are my accessories.Cara:The one thing that I would honestly probably — like, I have a hard time spending a lot of money, like paying full price for an item. I would 100% pay full price for an accessory — piece of jewelry, a scarf, whatever. Because I just think no matter what, you can throw it on and it makes or breaks an outfit.I could not agree more. And this is also, I wanted to say, you rock cowboy boots in particular.But this is a perfect segue into how you decide what to buy and where. I know that you thrift a lot. It sounds like accessories get that full-price spot, but how else do you decide what comes home with you or what you leave at the thrift store?Cara: This has evolved throughout my life. I’m in my thirties now, but in my twenties, it was like: you see it, you love it, you buy it.I was buying way too much, spending way too much money, was not saving when I should have been in a time where I was in the space in my life where I could save. And that taught me a lesson. Now in my 30s, where I have a lot more bills and things to pay for, I can’t do that anymore.So I have this desire to want everything, but I really have to edit and be more selective with what I’m buying because I’m on a budget. And I think a lot of people are, especially nowadays. It’s expensive just to exist on this planet.So the things that come home with me have to be things that I love, not just things that I think are cute. In one of my series, I call it “Ooh, that’s cute” — when I go to the thrift store and show you guys everything I think is cute. That is different than actually loving a piece.Loving a piece is:* You see it and you think it’s cute.* You try it on, it fits you.* You try it on, it feels good on you.* You don’t already have something like it or similar.So I’m being super selective with my closet edits. The things I’m purchasing have to be items I know I’m going to re-wear at least five times. I’m not just buying one-off pieces because they just take up space.And that’s another thing: I don’t have a lot of storage in my apartment. My closet is packed to the gills. So it’s only things I really love.I’m fortunate, though, that people trust me to go out and shop for them in the thrift store and do style bundles. So I get to kind of feed that little shopping beast by shopping for other people, which is really fun.But yeah, I would say you have to love the piece and it has to be something that you’re going to wear multiple times in multiple different categories or occasions. It could be layered, it could be worn in the summer, it could be worn in the winter.Maureen: Well, let’s talk about when you shop for your Chloë Sevigny or Zoë Kravitz posts. How literal would you say you go? I mean, I know when you’re thrifting, it kind of depends on what you can find. But I’m curious: what have you learned about your personal style through recreating their looks? How has that influenced you?Cara: I definitely have learned that I have certain things I gravitate towards. Natural fabrics being one of them — cotton, denim, linen, silk.A lot of times when I’m shopping for these dupe celebrity outfits, I’ll find something that’s polyester and be like, nope, I’m not going to buy that. Even though it’s an exact match, I won’t wear it again — and I know that. So I’m really trying to only get stuff I’ll actually re-wear.It’s taught me that my editing skills on closet selection have gotten so in tune that I’m even applying that when completing a look. Ten years ago, that would not have been the case. Ten years ago I would’ve been like, “Just give me whatever as long as it’s an exact match and it fits.”Also, it’s taught me that I know what cuts of things look better on my body. Especially now that I’ve been documenting — like, a lot of Zoë Kravitz’s looks have really low pants. She’s notorious for showing off her navel area. I’m very seldom going to do that. I might show a little slice of belly, but you’re not getting below the belly button.So her pants might be more low-rise style, whereas I’m literally never going to buy that. For me, it’s going to be a mid-rise. So just the way things fit me, I’ve been able to edit the outfits to fit my body shape rather than theirs.Maureen: Oh man, I feel like we could talk about this forever. It’s like — one of my mental blockers is exactly that. How do I be inspired by someone without wanting to recreate their outfit exactly?And I can tell you, I’ve been working on this for years. I’ve made progress, but sometimes I still fall into that trap. So it’s awesome to hear that you’re figuring out how to recreate it your way.Do you have any guidance for how to give the vibe of an outfit without recreating it? Like, say you’re not doing low-rise pants but you’re doing mid-rise. What’s the ethos — the underlying vibe you make sure to nail, even if the proportions are different on your body?Cara: Yeah. I think the first thing I look at, as somebody with a creative brain, is texture, color, pattern.So, you know, if someone has a plaid shirt on — plaid is a pattern, but those colors could also be recreated in a stripe or another pattern that’s not plaid. As long as you’re getting the colors right, that works.If you can’t get the colors right but you can get the pattern right, you can alter the colors slightly.And then texture — like corduroy. There’s thin corduroy, chunky corduroy. Paying attention to that matters too.Also color in terms of overall vibe — is it earth-toned?Is it cool toned? Is it warm toned? Is it really bright and bold? I think those things can translate. Like, somebody could be wearing a lime green outfit in a video or a photo, and then I can go to the thrift store and recreate it with lime yellow instead — because it’s basically the same vibe.So instead of looking at individual pieces, you look at the outfit as an overall vibe. I know that sounds kind of cheesy, but that’s my ethos at least: what’s the vibe of this outfit, what am I going for? Can I pull some color, some pattern, some texture? That’s my mentality going into it.Maureen: Totally. What I heard from that is it’s about composition and the overall effect, rather than the literal interpretation.What is it about Zoë Kravitz or Chloë Sevigny that inspires you? Why them?Cara: Oh, goodness — what doesn’t inspire me?One, they’re both beautiful people, beautiful humans. And people, I think it’s human nature to be kind of awestruck by beautiful people. So that’s number one.Number two is their effortlessness. I know it’s not actually effortless, because I’m sure they either have an intuitive way of thinking about what to wear or their stylists are curating things. But still — Chloë especially has been so iconic her whole life in terms of fashion.She has this “I don’t give a frick” attitude of I’m going to wear what I want. I love that so much. And Zoë — Zoë nails the neutrals like nobody else. She can rock a black tank top and black pants like no other because of her accessories and the way she wears the outfit. Pairing things together that normally wouldn’t get paired together.So I think it’s that cool girl aesthetic — combinations you wouldn’t necessarily expect, that really speaks to me. I just think they’re two of the coolest people ever.And there might be some more people coming up on the list… a little teaser maybe. Because I can only recreate Zoë and Chloë for so long. I need to add in some other inspo.Maureen: Ooh, I’m excited for that. Yeah. I mean, you do. You nail Cool Girl, just so you know. If you’ve ever wondered.Cara: I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. If there’s one thing I could do, if I do that, I’m happy.Maureen: You’re doing it. You’re doing it.So — we talked a little bit about body awareness and how what you’re feeling in the morning affects what you end up wearing that day. Can you tell me more about that experience, or how you figure out what the day’s vibe is or isn’t?Cara:Yeah. Especially living in Pennsylvania, the weather is always changing. There are four seasons here — sometimes it’s really hot, sometimes it’s really cold. That always factors in.I hate — I repeat, hate — sweating in any way, shape, or form. I hate being hot. So if it’s summer, like this past week has been unbearable — humid, no wind, just heat — I don’t want to wear anything. I want to not put clothes on.So having breathable fabrics like linen and cotton that I can just throw on, that look good but won’t make me sweat — that’s important.Also, sometimes things just don’t feel good on your body. Like, today I’m wearing a more structured dress. Yesterday, I didn’t want anything structured. So I think it depends on listening to what my body is telling me.I usually gravitate toward baggier fits instead of fitted ones, because I know I’ll always feel comfortable in that. Granted, there are situations where baggy doesn’t work — like work meetings or TV appearances for my job. I can’t show up in baggy fits.So in those cases, finding pieces that fit closer to my body but are made of comfortable fabrics really helps.So yeah — waking up, feeling the vibe, checking the weather, and deciding what genre I want to fit in. “Character” isn’t quite the right word, because I’m always myself. But like — which version of Cara I want to be that day.Maureen: Well, and you also mentioned right, like Zoë or Chloë — those names work so well together — they’re genre-mixing even within a single outfit. That’s a strength you observed in them, and also something you’re doing so well yourself. That makes total sense. Like, why not? Why do we have to be one thing?Cara: Yeah, no. And I think so many people get caught up in that. They want to look just like Jennifer Lawrence. They only want to wear things Jennifer Lawrence wears. But that’s not realistic. She has someone picking her clothes, shopping for her, buying all the things.You have to be able to have pieces you love and instinctively put them together, and not care if it fits into a genre. That’s personal style: having all these little things in your wardrobe you love and wearing them a million different ways.It’s easy to go out, buy something new, put it on once, and never wear it again. But that’s not what it’s about, in my opinion. And I’m not shaming anyone who does that — some people’s brains just work that way. But for me — our planet is a precious thing. To just one-off a clothing item? I could never.And that’s one of the things I love about thrifting — all these discarded clothes at your fingertips. Yeah, they’ve been worn, yeah, they might be stained — but OxyClean exists for a reason. Figure it out. Let’s save the planet a little bit.I’m not a poster child for being environmentally friendly, but that’s my part. That’s what I’ll continue to do.So yeah: thrift your clothes, love your clothes, buy things you love, mix them together, and see if it works. If it doesn’t, don’t do it again.Maureen: You’re really encouraging me to go thrifting this weekend.Cara: I hope you do.Maureen: I used to thrift all the time, and then it just got overwhelming. But now I’m like — I’ve got to try.Cara: I will say, it has dramatically changed in the past couple of years. It really has. Prices at thrift stores nowadays are a little crazy. I’m very fortunate that in my area of Pennsylvania, we haven’t fallen to that too much.But I went thrifting in Boston last summer when I went to see Noah Kahan in concert, and I randomly went into a Savers. We don’t have Savers in Pennsylvania. And I was like — whoa. A t-shirt was $7.99. I could buy a t-shirt at Old Navy for $7.99.Normally my mentality isn’t like that, because I’m so conscious about discarding clothes and fashion waste. But I can understand why people would just say, “No, I’ll just order something from Old Navy and have it shipped to my house.” And I’m not an Old Navy hater — I love Old Navy. But I get the convenience of that versus thrifting.That said, you can still find things at the thrift store you’ll never find online — unless you’re on Depop, Mercari, or eBay. It’s always a little treasure hunt. You never know what you’re going to find.Maureen: Well, and you also have to find your store. Not every store, at least where I live, carries my size. Or if they do, there’s like two pieces. So it’s not a good use of my time to go to a store where I know I won’t find anything.But there’s another store where I know I can find things because, for whatever reason, they carry more oversized clothing or some men’s stuff, and that fits better.So I think that’s also a negotiation — like, what store even has the type of clothing I’d be looking for? And I’m trying to push past that mindset of, oh, this store didn’t have it, that store didn’t have it, therefore no stores will.And then there’s another store near me that has almost no inventory at all. Ten years ago, they used to be packed with stuff. And now there’s so much need for clothing that every time I go in, it’s full of people but there’s nothing on the racks. People need things.Cara: Yeah, you’re totally right. That’s definitely something I’ve seen as well. And you’re 100% right about the stores that fit with you and what you’re looking for. There are definitely stores around me that are more size-inclusive than others.And based on inventory, I know which places I’ll find X, Y, and Z at. I’m fortunate to be able to thrift often, so I have a sense of what I’ll get at each store. But not everybody has that luxury — especially if they’re new to thrifting, or coming back to it after being away. It can feel really daunting.That’s where secondhand apps can be a great resource. There’s actually an app called Gem — not a plug, but I use it all the time. You can save a wish list search, like “LL Bean barn jacket, size 2X,” and it will scan all the secondhand apps for you. Then you just click the one you like, and it takes you to buy it. So even if you don’t want to dig through racks in person, you can thrift online much more easily than before.Maureen: Yeah, I’ll make sure to link Gem in the show notes. Again, not a sponsor.Cara: Yeah, not at all — but I really recommend it.Maureen: Cool. Another hard part is even figuring out what size you are when shopping online. How do you figure out what size to look for?Cara: Measurements. That’s my number-one tip.But don’t measure your body — measure your clothes laid flat. That’s the trick I use all the time, even when I’m thrifting in person. A lot of times I don’t want to change out of my clothes or put something dirty on, so I just measure it flat and compare to pieces I already own.Most sellers list measurements. If they don’t, request them — and if they’re not willing to provide them, honestly, they shouldn’t be in the business. I keep a little mini measuring tape in all of my purses, and I use it everywhere, not just for thrifting. Even if you’re shopping in the mall, it’s super useful.Especially for pants — jeans are tricky. I have pairs I like tight, and others that are baggy, and they measure completely differently when laid flat. So I measure those, and I even keep a note on my phone with all my garment measurements: baggy jeans, tight jeans, dresses, tops. That’s my holy grail for shopping.Maureen: Yeah, that’s brilliant. And also, it’s about making it about the clothes — not your body. When I’ve focused on measuring my body, I’ve thought, oh, this should fit, but then it doesn’t, because it’s not about the size of my body — it’s about my preference for fit. Measuring clothes that already fit the way you want makes so much more sense.Cara: Exactly. And especially secondhand, people don’t always care for clothes properly. A sweater might have been washed in hot water when it shouldn’t have, and now the fit is totally different. Just because it says XL or 2XL doesn’t mean it’ll fit like that.That’s why I say don’t measure your body — your body has nothing to do with it. It’s about the clothes and how they were made, or how they were cared for. I swear by this trick. That little measuring tape is a lifesaver.Maureen: I love that. I have one too, and I need to start bringing it with me. I feel very inspired.So, what other advice would you give to someone looking to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Cara: My first piece of advice is to find your key comfort items — the pieces you love and wear often. A lot of times, they’re not “sexy” pieces, but basics: the tried-and-true jeans, the skirt that fits perfectly, the white button-up that doesn’t gap. Find those first. Love them. Take care of them — even take them to the dry cleaner if needed.Second, when you shop, pick things you love, but also ask yourself: Can I see myself wearing this multiple ways? Can this t-shirt go under a dress, with jeans, or with a skirt for a night out? Money is precious, even if it’s $3 at the thrift store. Think intentionally about how often you’ll actually wear it.And last but not least — accessories. They make or break an outfit. Invest in a good purse, or thrift one. Play around with scarves, hats, socks, jewelry. Experiment with color, pattern, fit. Eventually you’ll find what you’re comfortable in and what makes you feel cool.Because that’s what it’s about — not what anyone else thinks, but how you feel in your clothes.Maureen: That’s so inspiring. For me, I’m coming out of an era where I had to rebuy my whole wardrobe because of fit changes. And in that process, I stopped being expressive. I felt like I couldn’t buy the “fun” stuff because I had to prioritize leggings or basics.But finding your content has reminded me I can play and explore again. I don’t have to be in survival mode. I can try different things and see how I feel on my today body. Your enthusiasm makes dressing feel achievable, fun, and worth the effort. So thank you for that.Cara: Thank you — that’s so sweet. Honestly, all the love I’ve received — like being asked to be on this podcast — it’s the cherry on top. I’ve done a lot of work to feel good about myself, and to have others notice and use words like “contagious” is really special.I’ll never take that for granted. I just feel lucky to have this outlet to connect with people who feel the same way. That’s what it’s all about.Maureen: Well, thank you. Where can people find you? Where are you most active?Cara: I’m on Instagram — my handle is just my name: Cara_Wengen_Co. And my TikTok is the same without the underscores. The content on both platforms is pretty similar, and that’s the best way to connect with me. I hope people do!If you listen to this and then follow me, or already follow me and are listening, DM me. I try to check my hidden requests more than people would think because it’s like the land of lost messages — those deserve love too.Maureen: Well, thank you for doing that, because that’s how you saw my message.Cara: I’m so happy to be here. So happy I did.Maureen: Oh, and if someone wanted to do a style bundle, are you actively taking requests?Cara: Yeah, I just shipped out ten this past weekend, which was very crazy. I am taking requests, but I only take on about five at a time. I’m working on three right now, so I have two spots left.And if you reach out when I’m not taking people, don’t worry — I have a little waiting list document. Once a bundle ships out, I’ll reach out to the next person.Maureen: Awesome. Well, I’ll make sure all of that is linked in the show notes. Thank you so much — this was a delight.Cara:Thank you!OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and searchIntuitive Styleto read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks, see you next week. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

The second episode of season two is here! Enjoy this episode with Harriet Hadfield. Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeYou’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Harriet Hadfield, the writer of Harry Styles—that name!—on Substack. As an early One Direction fan, you know what I mean. You know her from her nuanced, vulnerable writing about career transitions and mental health challenges, just as much as her playful and creative styling suggestions. Or perhaps you’ve seen her extensive backlog of makeup tutorials or journal making on her YouTube channel, Harry Makes it Up. However you’ve met her, you are sure to have loved her. Harry, welcome to the show.Harriet: My gosh, that intro was like the most lovely thing ever. I’m like, can you just send me that so can put that in like a happy book? Maureen: I will print it out, I’ll hand write a note. You can keep it wherever. Harriet: So lovely. Thank you so much Maureen.Maureen: You wrote it yourself, you did all those things. So you made it easy. Well, I wanted to start off by referencing your recent undercover work, a post that you put up on Substack, where you identified some themes and what folks on the East side of LA are wearing, which anyone that’s been following you for a minute would see that it’s a little bit different from your typical style. There’s lots of color. And, I just thought that was really fun because you reinterpret those looks with your own clothes. So I would just love to hear like, how did you come up with that idea? And just tell me, was it so fun to write?Harriet: It really was like the most fun thing. And I think sometimes to me, my writing, there are some things that I just know I wanna write. And then generally this situation, I’d gone to a coffee shop with my laptop and I got there, my laptop was dead. And I was like, man, there’s no chargers around. And I always carry a notebook with me, as you know, I love my journals. So I was like, okay, I’m just gonna people watch, which is another hobby of mine. And I just started writing what I was seeing, like socks with shoes, canvas totes. It was almost like a shopping list. I just kind of was documenting what I was seeing. And then I said to my husband, he was at the coffee shop with me, I was like, I’m Harriet the Spy. And then I think that whole thing, was like, this is so fun because like you said, I think my style is a little bit different generally to where I live and I don’t in any way say that to sound like it’s better than. Again, I think this is where style can feel really problematic.But coming from London, I think my style has always felt a bit dressier. But I love taking inspiration from anywhere and everywhere. So I also think I’m currently on another no-buy. I love being able to think how can I make my existing wardrobe work harder for me? And also like you said, like intuitive style in my opinion is about trying stuff. It’s about experimenting. So I love pushing myself out my comfort zone in the safety of my own home and knowing like, okay, here’s my barometer to decide what feels comfortable to leave the house in. What bits do I keep? What bits do I maybe go, cool, I tried that, it’s not for me. But for me getting dressed is like playing dress up. It always takes me back to being a kid and just wanting to try things.Maureen: How do you know when it feels right and you’re ready to leave the house in something versus like, I need to tweak this a little bit more or it doesn’t feel right?Harriet:That’s a really good question and part of me wants to say there’s lots of ways to answer that but I also think intuition and self-trust is something we build. So for me it’s both a physical feeling in my body, it’s kind of like a mental knowing of... I think as well for me it’s like a spectrum of like am I uncomfortable because it feels new or is it uncomfortable because...I just would feel more conscious wearing this than not wearing it. And I think if it’s the former, like, oh, this just feels new, then this is why I like doing, like, play dates in my own wardrobe at home, because it gives me time to get used to seeing myself in a new way. It gives me space and time to be like, ooh, there’s something that keeps making me look in the mirror and go, I’m not mad at it. I don’t hate it. And sometimes I think you have to start there before you can get to a place of, oh my god, this and sometimes the my god I love this does happen very instantaneously but for me I think it’s almost it’s it’s learning to develop patience with when I’m trying something new it isn’t always gonna click straight away and there will be some things where try as I might I’m like looks great on everyone else but it’s a no for me like I think it’s that it’s it’s building that self-trust which I would love to say I could tell you exactly how you do that. But I think it’s, I think to start with, it’s maybe wanting to build the self-trust. I think that’s a good place to be. Like, I think I’ve outsourced my tastes when I was younger so much. I look for someone to tell me what style is, what would be right. Again, you know, coming of like the noughties and the, you know, 90s teenager, like I grew up with, everything should be flattering, everything should be done, you know, avoid horizontal stripes.So I’ve had to unlearn a lot as well, but I think that started with wanting to unlearn it. Like there came a point where I was like, I would like to make decisions that feel good for me, even if other people don’t get it. And I think that’s a good place to start is just wanting to kind of like build that trust.Maureen: Can you be my co-host on this podcast because...Harriet: You Anytime.Maureen: I mean, everything you said…there’s no bows that we can tie. There’s a reason that this is an 18 plus episode and growing podcast because I don’t think that there’s a one answer on how to build this self trust, but it’s like you said, it’s a choice that we’re making and, something that we have to put time and attention into doing. yeah.Harriet: Yeah. No. And I think make it fun, whatever fun looks like for you. Like for me, I’m still a big kid at heart. Like I wanna put 90s boy band music on while I have a wardrobe play date and you know, have a sing and a dance in my closet. And I’m always like, how can I make this feel like play versus something I have to get right?Maureen: Are there any outfits that you tried recently or as a result of that post that, was there like anything that stands out that you’re like, I did this new thing and it felt really good. What was that like?Harriet: I think the socks and shoes I see come round again and again. I think it’s one of those things that in fashion, it’s been used in so many different decades. I see people, like I I live on the East side in LA. I see it a lot on the East side and I always appreciate it on other people. I’ve just always been like, especially trainers and socks, loafers and socks. And I remember realizing at one point, I don’t actually own a pair of white socks. I only own black socks for the winter with my boots. And I remember wearing a pair of black socks over leggings with like a really oversized blazer and then like a white strappy sandal and I loved the contrast of that. I remember thinking like, oh this feels like me. Again, that spectrum I talked about, it was a very instantaneous yes. And so because of that, I was like, okay, well what if it’s not a loafer in a sock for me? What if it’s just a different shoe in a sock?So again, I kind of like the same Harriet the Spy thing. I’m very investigative. Like, I don’t even think that’s a word. But like, I’m always trying to be like, what is the bit I do like? Like, warmer, warmer. And I remember I had this pair of shoes that were actually from the Alison Bornstein, Jack Irwin collection when she did that launch. And I’ve got to be honest, I don’t always wear them. And they’re suede and I live in LA, so I have no excuse. But I was just like, I need to wear these more. Again, there’s things in my wardrobe where I’m like, I love this item. If I’m not wearing it, is it because I need to find new ways to wear it that excite me? Is it just that I haven’t put it enough into heavy rotation? And like I said, I didn’t have any white socks, but Dave had some sports socks with like a pink and a brown rim around the top. And I was like, well, if I fold them and scrunch them, I can kind of make it look like a white sock. And it was like a thick sports socks. I was like, okay, this is really not comfortable, but it’s kind like I have this concept called like the bridge philosophy where it’s like where can you try something that is like point A of the spectrum of starring stuff and being like, okay, that’s my beginning point. And from doing that, although it was like uncomfy because the socks were too thick, I was like, I kind of like this. And again, for me, I have to always add something dressy into the mix. I feel like when there’s like a more formal looking bag or something that feels quite, I’m trying to what the word is. Like for me, I love grandma and granddad. That’s always like, feel like when people say like, what’s your style? I’m like, I don’t really have words, but I’m like, what a granddad would wear, a grandma would wear, or a librarian, or a geography teacher, like any of those probably would like cross my path some way. Again, yeah, and I just think like trying on those shoes with the socks, I was like, maybe I might get round to buying socks. So I think it’s, whether it’s going to be something that becomes fully into part of my everyday dress, who knows? But again, I like that experimenting, I like the play of like, there’s something in this that I’m like, ⁓ that’s cute, I like that. Like it brought me joy seeing that outfit come together and being like, I know what it is within the outfit that makes it feel like me.Maureen: One of the questions that I am always like, what’s the word, struggling with, and it sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on this is like balancing staying open to trying new things and changing your mind while also respecting the preferences that you’ve observed over time. Can you think of any ways to explain the right balance between those two? Like, is it just? That’s self-trust or is there more to it?Harriet: I mean, the thing that’s given me the most freedom, I think, not just in my wardrobe, but in life in general, is I’m allowed to change my mind. And I’m actually writing a piece about this at the minute for Substack because I think so many people can relate to that feeling of once I quote unquote commit to this is my style, this is an objective I’m gonna use to describe it, this is how I understand it now, I just think we’re always evolving and I think there’s things that ground us.But I think letting go of the fear of like, well now I’ve decided I know my personal style, therefore I must stay here. I think there’s a fluidity that’s needed for it to stay fun and for it to not get into the territory of like, good, bad, right, wrong. That’s kind of like, for me personally, whenever I’m like, yeah, you’re allowed to change your mind, I’m like, that’s so freeing. Like there’s so much relief in that. So I don’t know if I’ve answered the question, but I think that’s kind of like how I approach that nuance.Maureen: I think you answered the question perfectly. It’s like, our preferences can mean whatever they want to mean. our preferences can be valid in a moment in time and then our preferences can change and also be valid in a different moment in time. And I think it’s just being okay with that.Harriet: I think with this online world we’re all in now, I think it’s that fear of things getting used against us. I know as a writer, like, you know whatever you write, it’s in print. Like, it’s in the world. The internet makes it exist and people love to go back to something that was said and kind of pull it up. you know, I’ve been within to some extent the content creation world for the past, like, 12 years.Of course I see things that I wrote or I’ve said like from 10 years ago and I’m like, I don’t believe that anymore. But I’m like, yeah, cause I’m growing. I, and yes, growing, you know, from an emotional lens, but also literally my experience on this earth is now longer. I’ve had more points of view to see. And I think sometimes this is expectation when you let yourself be online of like, I have to have every single nuance covered. I have to have every single point of view.And sometimes I think the asterisks can get a little bit, I think it was, you know, I was chatting about this with a writer from recently and I was like, I think the audience just want to feel something. I think they just want to connect and I’m not for everybody. Like I think I’ve, for the most part, day to day, I feel more peace than ever that I’m really not for everyone. But that’s how it stays fun for me. You know, rather than trying to be like, and you don’t have to dress up and it’s okay if you want to dress up. Like sometimes you, there’s that kind of push and pull, but style is personal. Like it can’t not be personal if you’re approaching it from a lens of experimentation play. And I think letting go of the idea that we arrive, do you know what I mean? Like letting go of this idea of like, and now my style is complete and it will never, it’s never going to change again.Maureen: You know, it’s so crazy because there’s so many things that I like know in my brain, but then like when it’s like me, it’s not like it doesn’t feel true. Like I have this idea in my head, like I’m in the midst of a style transition right now where I’m like, Ooh, I feel like there will be another side of this and I I’m not there yet. And I’m trying to remind myself like maybe there isn’t another side. Like maybe, maybe I’m not like on a bridge crossing a river. Maybe I’m just like on a meandering path.Harriet: Yeah, no, I mean, even recently, like, I, again, another place I’m writing about, like, the joy of patina, like, I think I’ve noticed myself being, I’ve always loved secondhand, it’s kind of what I grew up with, but also now it’s kind of coming full circle where I’m like, I’ve done the babying items I’ve spent a lot of money on, a lot of which I’ve sold, and recently I started just wildly pinning Victorian writing desks. It, like, was one of these things where I was just like, I don’t know why, but I’m obsessed with the thought of having a place to do my journals where there’s no computer, where there’s nothing digital, where I can wear my nightgowns and pretend I’m Emily Bronte. I was like, no, it’s a whole vibe. But from the place, it’s fun. Like I know lace is trending right now. And again, for me, it all comes around full circle all the time. But I found this amazing little table in a thrift store for like, I think it ended up being like 40 bucks. And then the next day, found a chair that matches it in like a junkyard for like 20 bucks and I was just like did I manifest this? Is this part of my style evolving? And I think for me again it’s letting go of it needing to make sense because I think that thing of like the consistency that people are craving and I get it I get we want to feel like we can wear our clothes we can use them we want to avoid feeling discombobulated on like a personal level but I think there is space for that nuance and there is space for that, don’t know why I like it, but I do. And okay, I’m not gonna dress head to toe like I’m in a Victorian novel every single day, but there are things, it’s like that cherry picking, there’s things where I’m like, I like that. And it probably doesn’t make sense, but it makes sense to me. again, it just, whether you wanna say it sparks joy, whether you wanna say it’s, know, even like when I look at...I mentioned the Victorian table from the lens of I live in LA, everything here is very mid-century modern, the house we live in, there’s a lot of things that quote unquote wouldn’t suit the house we live in. But when I saw this Victorian desk, I’m like, I don’t care, I just need to own it, like I love it. And it’s just, I think leaning into where I’m at in my, whether you’d say style and period, like all the things that I use to explore creativity and express myself.I’m coming back to this place of like, I remember my mum having one like that when we were kids. Or there’s kind of like that pull to memory, there’s a pull to I’ve moved away from so many things I grew up with. And now I’m like, I can like really appreciate the beauty from a new lens and that wanting to be around certain things. Because I think with clothing as well, kind of like to come back to the East Side pose she was saying about, I just enjoy seeing people like, be in clothes. I think there’s something so fascinating about the way clothing makes people change how they walk, it changes you know the confidence they might have when they enter a room. I think it’s so psychological and I find that part of clothing fascinating like deep like when someone says like I can’t wear this is it’s too much I’m like Tell me more. Like, I’m just like, wanna, I wanna know all about like, where did that come from? Like, I, I, you know, when someone’s like, okay, I’ve changed now, I feel better. Like, I’m like, cool, what make, like, I’m so fascinated. Like, what makes us feel better? Yeah.Maureen: You and me both, Harry. This is why I sit here with these headphones on, talking to people every week. I’m like, what are you wearing and why? I just wanna know. It’s so true. It’s just the most beautiful way of communicating and understanding from other people who you are and why, or how do you view yourself? What do you feel about yourself? Not that it means, like, not that there’s like, oh, if you dress like this, it means this thing, but it allows you to have a conversation or, you whatever. It’s about presentation, like, who we are inside on the outside. I mean, it’s the best.Harriet: Yeah, and it’s this fun thing you get to play with. I always think we can learn so much from kids when I’m watching my nieces get dressed with a frozen dress mixed with cowboy boots. My sister was like, no, I literally can’t buy clothes for them anymore. And she’s five. My sister’s like, no, she has an opinion. And I kind of watch her get dressed and I’m like, she’s just having so much fun. There’s no right or wrong. And again, I’ll, you know, going to see her grandma, she’s like, I’m put my frozen boots on. She’s already figured out like, I’m going somewhere. This is like a place to share what I enjoy wearing with other people. And I just think it blows my mind how like, you know, it’s maybe so much younger than we think that we have this awareness of like how we present ourselves. And that exploring, I guess, creativity, you know, and self-expression through what we were.Maureen: Do you remember what you wore as little kid?Harriet: I do because I feel like as a kid I was very very sporty so I was obsessed with sport as a kid. I played a lot of tennis, so as a really small girl my mum did do the kind of like matching clothes with me and my sister, which I look back and I’m like that’s kind of cute now. But I remember hating as a kid—everything was color coordinated. It was like if she had a Mickey Mouse t-shirt, I had Minnie Mouse. Her sleeves were one color, my sleeves were another, and it was like matching sets, but our own colors. And I remember a lot of that, which makes sense, because it’s probably just easier for my mom to be like, cool, get two of those. Like, you know, again, it’s not that deep. Sometimes it is just not. And whenever I was in skirts or dresses, I was like, I can’t do cartwheels or the boys seeing my knickers. Like, at that point clothes were an obstacle. If I wasn’t wearing things that I felt comfortable in...and then as I became more sporty as I got older, I think I spent a lot of time with boys and girls, but with boys as well. And it was like, right, I need leggings, I need trainers so I can run. My clothes started to take on this need to keep up. And obviously, like I said, doing sports a lot, I found myself always in sports clothes, which A, was super comfortable, but it was also practical. There was that sense of like, I’m running a lot and playing a lot of sport.And then I think around age 11, it was like I went totally the other way. My brain was just like, wait, wait, hang on. You know, Topshop was the coolest place in the world at this point. And I just remember, again, I was playing a lot of sport, and I don’t know if any other kids can relate to this, but there was a point where my mum was like—do you wanna go to sleepovers? She was a bit like, you love sport, but do you want this too? There was no like, I’m gonna go to Wimbledon, I’m gonna do this. But a lot of the people I was with had that mindset. Their parents were making the kids play tennis before school, and I used to play with the county. So it was one of those things where I could have started taking it seriously. But I think as is the way with me, I was like, this is just really fun. So I liked just doing it from that place.And I think my mum realised quite early on—every time someone invited me to a sleepover, I had tennis camp or whatever. And she said, you can do that, we’ll support you if you wanna do it, but we just wanna check—do you wanna be a kid? Again, I was in lots of highly competitive scenarios. And I’m really grateful my mum did that because, for one, that’s where I realised I love makeup.I remember the first time I went to a sleepover, and we all opened makeup bags and were swapping the free blusher we got with the magazines. Again, it just opened this world that I’d never—I’m the oldest, so I have a younger sister and a younger brother, but I’d never been around girls kind of going through puberty. That was my first foray into like, there’s this other world, and it involves glitter.So I then went very hard the other way and was like, okay, yes, I want to go to sleepovers all the time, talk about clothes, and play with makeup, because this is also really fun.Maureen: This whole line of conversation is perfectly segueing into my next question, which is—your expertise is super wide-ranging, as I said in the intro, but you refuse to be limited by labels. You wrote, I’ve worked hard to undo the belief that my identity comes from any one thing. I am a writer and I’m a content creator. I’m a writer and I talk about style. I’m a writer and I’m a daughter. I’m a writer and I’m a wife, I’m a writer and I’m a friend. There is not one thing I am or am not. I am so much more than what I do. How does this way of viewing yourself as so many different things all at once impact the decisions and choices that you make? How does this compare to earlier versions of yourself?Harriet: I think—I mean, I want to be very honest. That piece of writing especially reflects where I’m at now and where I’ve been the past year. It hasn’t always felt that way. As much as I’ve always been the person that’s had lots of interests, I think in the past I have been like, okay, I need to be the best at something, I need to be really good at it. I’ve been very hard on myself—that has existed. And for various reasons, moving away from that has given me the flexibility to be like, you know what, we’re here for a good time, not a long time. So what is the point, and where has chasing joy been the majority of my decision-making? That might sound really immature to some people. I think past me would have thought, oh, that’s very unrealistic of you to think that way. But because I’ve been in highly competitive situations in the worlds that I’ve been in within my work, coming out of it has been like taking a step back and just saying—kind of like what we were saying about style evolving—your likes, your dislikes, the seasons you have in your life, really making space for the one you’re in right now.And I think it’s that thing where I’m in a place personally where there are many days when I’m like, I have no idea what I’m doing. And there was a time when that terrified me. And I won’t lie, there are times when it still does. But more often than not, I’m like—how fascinating that we’re here. Because there was a part of me that would never have let myself be in this place before.Especially when it comes to slowing down, especially when it comes to doing less and making space to be multiple things at once. To be in a season where maybe one thing is a priority for a while, and a different thing is a priority next month. I’m in a season of permission for myself to be whatever I need to be, and I’ve needed it so badly. That’s what I always come back to when my brain says—you’re not doing enough, you need to figure this out right now. I just come back to—you’re exactly where you’re meant to be. And there’s a lot of discomfort in that sometimes, because I think we’re taught—and it comes back to the style thing—we’re taught you should know it, you should figure it out, there’s an end goal, there’s a finish line. And the older I get—the more I’m about to turn 40—the more I understand this is just gonna keep evolving. There are going to be so many different seasons.For me, I think I’m really trying to redefine my relationship with ambition to a place where it’s more fun and playful. When I first started writing, it was like—okay, I’m a writer, what’s the end goal? And I think now I’m like—well, I don’t really have an interest in trying to be a New York Times bestseller. If it happened, cool, that would be great. But it’s not an end goal. Writing actually makes me very present, because it’s just one post at a time. Whereas with Instagram, which I don’t really do anymore, it was very optimization-heavy and about getting as much done as possible in a short amount of time.Whereas for me, writing—the fact I can even spend a week writing the same piece, which again, I know sounds very luxurious, but I want to, I’m taking that long because A, I can, and B, I want to. And I think noticing how much I’ve come back to long-form content, you know, I still do YouTube. But I’ve also come back to that I’m allowed to change my mind. I might want to go back to doing short-form content at some point. But right now, the season I’m in is about doing less and not having to do this to become X, Y, Z, or to have someone validate that I did good enough. It’s hard to unlearn. I’m going to be really honest. But I keep coming back to it. I just keep writing Substacks; I don’t have a content planner. I just keep writing because, for now, it gives me a lot. Like it really does give me a lot, and I love the people I’ve met through it—the fact I got to meet you. There are so many things that come out of just going after something because it feels right. That intuition, building trust with yourself—it all comes back to that.Maureen: How do you feel after you’ve decided to hit publish on a post? What does that feel like?Harriet: For the most part, really excited. I think that’s what’s different. There’s something about putting something out there where I’m like, that’s my point of view for today. It could be different in a week, but there’s something about it. Substack is like a body of work, and I treat it like work in a way that I’m committed to, but I’m still doing it because...You know, I’m in this season of trying lots of different things to see if maybe I’m meant to do a bit of this, a bit of that. And writing is the thing I keep coming back to for now. It feels like my—maybe not a security blanket—but it feels fun. And I love that after doing a lot of free content for many years, there’s something empowering about it.I’ve done sponsorships, I have affiliate links, but it was never how I fully earned my living. That’s not to say there’s anything wrong with doing that—I’m in awe of content creators who do it full time. But for me, I’ve always identified as a creative. A lot of my jobs have been creative, freelance, self-employed. There’s something refreshing about people paying for my work. Especially with Instagram or YouTube, the longer you do it, the more negative comments you get alongside the lovely ones. I often joke, if someone wants to talk s**t about me, they have to pay me first.And there’s something really safe about that. I like that you don’t have to be here, but you’re welcome to join. Prioritizing my sanity and capacity is also important. Burnout is real, and I’ve suffered from it. I see other people either in burnout, going through it, or on the other side of it. So much of it is that we’re all trying to do everything and be everything. Even when I stepped back from Instagram, there was almost this pressure like, no, you should do it. But I was like, just because I should, who says?Being a creative feels empowering when you can say, no, I’m just gonna spend more time here right now, even if it doesn’t make sense, even if there are “missed opportunities.” That’s how my brain sometimes sees it. Versus, no, this is just what feels good right now.Maureen: I feel like you’re healing me, which is not your responsibility by any means, but I’m kind of speechless. I hope that’s okay. No, that was beautiful. There’s so much we’re unlearning around what it means to show up as ourselves, to make a living, be a good friend, a good writer, a good creative.I just think what you’re saying now, and your whole newsletter, is a beautiful love letter to figuring it out—the meandering path rather than walking over a bridge. Just anyone that hasn’t read your newsletter—can you stop watching this podcast, go look her up, and then come back? Seems highly unlikely, but just saying. I did want to talk about some of the things you’re kind of dabbling in or exploring. Harriet: Thank you, Maureen.Maureen: One of the questions I typically ask our guests is how they decide what to buy and where, but since you’re currently on a no-buy, I thought it would be more fun to talk about how you are deciding what to buy for your new bag and accessories resale endeavor. How do you know when there’s a piece you want to resell to your subscribers?Harriet: This is a really fun question because it’s very easy to answer—I just feel like it’s something I would want. I found myself being like, you know, I’m at a really good point in my wardrobe for now. There’s not much room left at the end, and it’s starting to feel overwhelming again. I was like, I think I’m ready for another no-buy; I’m doing this one for six months, but I think it will… I’m almost more fascinated to see what it feels like doing it a second time after doing it for a year. But yeah, it comes down to things I would want to own. Obviously, in all honesty, if they don’t sell, I think, oh, well, I have to use these lovely handbags. But with secondhand especially, I want to de-stigmatize it. Can we just call it secondhand? I remember saying “pre-loved” in front of my husband once, and he was like, what? Pre-loved? He was like, am I allowed to swear? I said, do you want me not to? He said, that’s the most wanky thing I’ve ever heard. He’s British too, by the way. And I was like, okay, fair. Maureen: Tell me you’re British without telling me you’re British.Harriet: I’ve been a big RealReal shopper; I’ve bought…Very low price pieces, very high-end pieces secondhand. It’s funny about that term—we had to give it a term to justify spending a certain amount. And I think some people prefer saying “pre-loved” versus “secondhand” as if secondhand is less prestigious. For me, this handbag endeavor excites me because some pieces will be lower-end, others several hundreds. One person’s “a lot” is another person’s “not much.” But no matter your budget, secondhand gives the most bang for your buck and the best chance of high-quality pieces. You just have to know what to look for. I grew up doing this. My mum, before thrifting was cool in England—we called them charity shops—taught me and my sister how to find leather, how to check labels, which brands to look for. I grew up very clued up on that, and I’m grateful.When I first moved to London as a “starving artist,” living in a tiny room I couldn’t stand up in, I used to buy things and sell them on eBay. I’d go into thrift stores, see, like, a pair of Chanel shoes for 30 pounds, and think, okay, that’s at least 200 whatever back then. I got very good at knowing how to find things.I’ve fallen back in love with secondhand, not just one price point or brand. It’s about things being lived-in and used. In the past, I would baby new expensive things. I’d panic if a bag got a scratch. I couldn’t be present—I’d worry about my bag at lunch with someone. Coming back to secondhand has been freeing. I still treasure my pieces and take care of them, but without the anxiety that pulls me away from the person I’m with or the place I’m in. They’re just wonderful things that add character to my outfit. And you can find something great if you know where to look, regardless of your budget.Maureen: Are you taking requests?Harriet: Well, this is the funny thing. When the handbag drop launches, it’s just going to be— I think it’s going to be 10 pieces. I think I’m finished; we’ve started shooting all the pieces. I’m also going to be offering a secondhand sourcing service. So I’m actually going to be offering a service where you can request items. I’m very excited about that.Maureen: Ooh. Well, I’ve seen some of your selects, and I was like, gosh, I don’t think I need bags… but do I need bags?Harriet: You’ve had a sneak peek. It’s funny because I was doing a PC the other day about how big my wardrobe really is. Bags have always… I think some people are “shoe people,” where they can’t walk past a shoe shop without looking. I’m realizing this more as I get older—I love shoes, I love every category, but blazers and bags… I can literally feel like I’m walking around in a dustbin bag, and if I have a good bag, I feel like I’m wearing head-to-toe Schiaparelli and diamonds.Maureen: What is it about— I mean, I have thoughts on bags as well. They’re amazing. But what is it about a bag that’s so… special?Harriet: I was trying to think this the other day. Clothes sit on your body, whereas a bag you kind of pick up and put down. And again, the psychology in me is like, I can see a lot of cultural influences we’ve grown up with… But a big part of it for me is that I love craftsmanship. I love leather, I love stitching. There’s something… this is embarrassing, but I’ll buy a bag and put it somewhere I can see it, just stare at it, and say, “You’re so pretty.” People do this with shoes too, but sometimes with my bags I just admire them. And there’s something about construction. I’ve honestly had the conversation with myself: do I want to learn how to be a cobbler? Do I want to go to leather school? Do I want to learn how to handcraft bags? I don’t have answers right now, but it makes sense why I’m starting with bags as this secondhand drop—just to see. I’ve picked pieces similar to ones I already own, so I’m excited to show that people can now get these.The craftsmanship is so tactile. Leather is like skin—it ages. There’s something metaphorical in that too. My first designer bag was a Mulberry Bayswater. I wanted it because of all the images I’d seen of battered, patina’d leather. No two bags age the same, which gives each its own fingerprint. Bags age with stories; every mark is a memory—from mundane moments to magic ones. They can even be handed down. Some clothing may not last generations, but I can imagine my niece wearing my bags. That’s so cool.Maureen: Yeah. You’re reminding me I should raid my mom’s purse closet. That’s beautiful. I love bags. And like you said, they’re tactile. You’re literally holding them in your hands. That’s satisfying. We can wear a shirt or jacket, but a bag…Harriet: Yeah, there’s a feel to it.Maureen: This is weird too, but I’ve started to try eating with my hands a little more. I feel like something about letting myself—or even cooking with my hands rather than using tongs—feels really good. I wonder if that ties into the bag thing too.Harriet: That makes a lot of sense. I recently had back surgery, which healed really well, but obviously I couldn’t wear a bra for two weeks. Similar to what you were saying, when one sense is limited… for me it was like, I can’t wear certain things right now. I found myself exploring senses differently. I got really into fragrance—I like fragrance. I was like, oh my god, this is now the best part of my day—choosing a perfume—because I’m pretty much wearing the same two dresses every day. That’s fine, but I became genuinely obsessed with fragrance in a way I don’t think I could have anticipated. I’ve always worn perfume, but now it’s like, I want to layer, I want to experiment. It’s like shopping with what I already own in a really fun way. Because I’d taken away one sense, it emphasized another.Maureen: One thing I’m hearing through everything you’re saying is that you choose to stay open, present, and attuned to your situation, and that provides so much value. In Western culture, when we’re in pain, anger, or sadness, there’s not much support for paying attention to that. Instead, we’re taught to numb or run away. But you illustrate that maybe that’s not the best approach. Being present can open us up to opportunities we didn’t even know existed. Do you feel that’s your experience? How did you get to this point of openness?Harriet: I don’t think there’s an easy answer. I’ve been closed off in certain ways for many years. The best way I can describe it is that I was always “operating.” I’m a very good doer—give me a task, I’ll do it—but sometimes you need a pause to ask, “Where am I? What am I doing? Is this the direction I want to go in?” Breaking life down into seasons has helped me a lot.Sometimes life feels overwhelming. As someone who’s struggled with depression, the concept of life itself can feel huge. I have to remind myself it’s made up of lots of seasons. Life will throw different things at me, many of which I won’t predict. And I’m grateful for the life I have. Sometimes we feel pressure to make the most of every single moment.I’ve learned a lot from others. I’ve become obsessed with Italy, reading Elena Ferrante books. Seeing other ways of living is so good—it reminds us that no place is perfect, but there are other ways to exist. My uncle and aunt live in Bulgaria, off the land, in a tiny mountain cabin. They love building, making things with their hands. They’re some of the happiest people I’ve met. I feel like a sponge these days—I want to experience as much as I can. Experiencing life fully feels like waking up again. Sometimes depression feels like going to sleep for a long time. And when I’m in these periods of “oh no, I’m awake,” I’m like, oh my gosh, I can see the colors, I can smell the perfume. It feels overwhelming sometimes, but in a good way. There’s all this magic. I always come back to doing things with my hands—I think that’s the born creative in me. We’re all born creatives, to be very clear.Recently, I’ve been making leather journals, making candles. The hardest thing to override was the voice saying, “Now I should sell these,” that millennial urge to monetize every hobby. I am that millennial. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I’ve been reminding myself it’s okay to just let myself create.I spend time making something, and it doesn’t have to be quantified—how much money it made, how much time it took. I’m really jealous of anyone who’s always had this mindset. But I’m good at relearning lessons over and over again.That tactile need—to make something with my hands—I lean into a lot now. Sometimes it’s a Substack post, sometimes it’s writing, sometimes a candle. I’m going to see my sister in September, and I’m so excited to craft with my nieces. They’re at an age where we can do it together.We’ll probably do loom band jewelry—that’s their favorite. We’ll also bake, color, make journals, because I’ve journaled my whole life. My mom kept most of them, and they’re hilarious. Reading something you wrote at seven years old—there’s nothing better. Like, “Highlight of today: I ate spaghetti.”It doesn’t get much deeper than that, but I always come back to things with my hands.Maureen: Your childlike wonder is magical. It’s contagious. We’re coming up on time, so I have one last question.Harriet: Aww, thank you. That’s nice. Maureen: What advice would you give someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?Harriet: Observe, experiment, there’s no rush. Curiosity and creativity are the two words I love most in my wardrobe. Creativity doesn’t mean trying to look like Iris Apfel every day. It exists in jeans and a t-shirt too. If you’ve never worn jeans and a t-shirt, give yourself space to try it. See what you like or don’t.Experimentation is key. I believe in wardrobe playdates—literally trying combinations you’ve never thought of. Swap one item for another. Feel fabrics on your skin. Consider practicality: your lifestyle may affect what works. Explore ideas, like a smaller heel if big heels don’t suit your day-to-day. Pick the bits that speak to you and play.Maureen: Yeah. Can’t agree more. Just play. It doesn’t have to be so serious. Where can people find you?Harriet: Definitely Substack—Harry Styles By Harriet Hadfield. I also have a YouTube channel, Harry Makes It Up, where I experiment creatively. Substack is where I hang out most.Maureen: And for anyone who wants to get in on your bag resale?Harriet: Subscribers get first dibs. Once it’s live, it’ll be available at harryhadfield.com.Maureen: Fabulous. I’ll link to everything in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me—it’s been a delight. Part two is definitely needed.Harriet: Thank you! I could talk with you for hours.OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and searchIntuitive Styleto read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it.Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays.Thanks, see you next week. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Intuitive Style podcast is back and better than ever! I took a break over the summer to rest, rejuvenate, and overhaul my recording method from top-to-bottom! We’re talking: new backdrop, haircut, logo, audio-set-up and even a new theme song created specifically for the show! While working a full-time job and continuing to write this newsletter. So when I say I took a break, I am speaking aspirationally.That said, we have an exciting series ahead with episodes featuring Substack gems Harriet Hadfield, and OFELIA (and way more!) plus a few new faces you’ll be sure to love. Despite my best attempts, this podcast continues to be 100% reader supported. If you enjoy what we’re doing here, please consider sharing with someone you think would love the show so we can get the word out!Onto the show…Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeWelcome back to Season 2 of the Intuitive Style Podcast!I'm Maureen McLennon Welton. I can't wait for you to see these episodes. I think it's going to be a fabulous season, kicking off with our guest today, Asta / Aastha. This is a great conversation. I think you're really going to enjoy getting to know her a little bit better.And this podcast is entirely community supported. So please consider liking, sharing, subscribing, and really just getting the word out there so that more people can find this show.And without further ado, let's get into the episode!Maureen: You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today's guest is Aastha, the author behind the fabulous Substack Fit Happens—which is of course a fabulous name. Aastha loves wearing the brand Tibi, styling clothes in different ways, sharing about color mixing and silhouette, and chatting about weird shoes. Aastha, welcome to the show.Aastha: Thank you, thank you, and thank you for the introduction.Maureen: I feel that your newsletter, Fit Happens, is a good foil for mine in the way that you seem to have really honed the skill of dressing intuitively and do it with relative ease. Can you share a little bit about what dressing intuitively means to you and how you foster that sensibility?Aastha: Yes, yes, for sure. But before I jump into the answer, I do want to say just a few words to embarrass you a little bit, Maureen, because I'm just such a big fan of everything that you're doing. And I really appreciate your vulnerability in how you put yourself out there.I've been a big fan of your podcast too, and I really appreciate how welcoming you make the space for everyone and hold space for everyone. That’s why I was very excited to do this. So I wanted to officially do that after you start the recording—so you cannot take it out. So don’t take this out.Now, let me answer the question.So, it’s something that… just the idea of living intuitively has been very important to me for, I don’t know, like 15, 20 years at this point. And I don’t even remember what sparked that. But in terms of what it means to dress, it’s about—there is so much out there that tells you what is right, what is wrong. And there is no objective truth about how you dress, but also about how you live. Like, the kind of decisions you make. For example, I am here in Los Angeles and my family is in India, which means I’m probably not going to see my parents that many times in my lifetime. But who’s to say whether that’s right or wrong? That’s just a very big example to begin with.But truly, there are so many decisions you need to make for your own life where there is no objective way to say what is right or what is wrong. And to actually be living a life where you don’t have regrets, it’s so important that you tap into your intuition and what feels right in that moment.And intuitive style and intuitive dressing to me is just a capsule form of that exact same idea—that you wear what feels right in that moment. And as long as it feels right, you’re going to have a good day and you’re not going to worry too much about, “is this right or is this wrong?”Even if I look back at my style five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago—I don’t have any regrets, because I know it felt right in that moment. Who cares if it doesn’t feel right now? If I had fun in that moment, that’s enough.It’s kind of like: if you have fun in the present, the past and the future take care of themselves.Maureen: I was going to ask about the regret of it all—you already answered. So what I heard from that is basically the only way to prevent future regret, which is this scary intangible thing we can’t predict, is by trusting that we’re making the best choices in the moment. And if we change our minds later, that doesn’t mean anything about what we did in the past.Aastha: No, no, it doesn’t. And also, I think when you live long enough, you realize you will change your mind. That is normal, right? So if that’s going to happen anyway, why worry too much about it? When people ask me for career advice, I usually say, just do what feels good to you in the moment. Because if you have fun every day, you will also be having fun every day in the future, right? So the future takes care of itself if you just focus on the present, basically.Maureen: I did a meditation before this, so it's really ringing true for me. No, I love this—such a good way to explain dressing intuitively. I know we'll talk about it more throughout the call.Switching gears slightly, I love to talk about the Tibi of it all. I know that Tibi, the brand—you’re not affiliated with them, you don’t use affiliate links—but you mostly or very often wear their clothing. And I just think it's so interesting, to me and to other people, to see someone really living authentically with a particular brand. That's also, like, sometimes divisive, as I think you’ve shared on your social media and on Substack.So I’d just like to hear a little bit more about the origin—how you found Tibi and what it is about that brand that resonates with you so much?Aastha: Yeah, it's such a great question. It is a big part of my style life for sure, and my closet, right? To the point where, because I'm a big Indyx user too—and you know how you can choose whether you want to see the brand names or the item names—the default is brand name. And I was like, that is useless to me because all I’ll see is Tibi, Tibi, Tibi. That does nothing for me. So I changed it to item name.But the thing about me is that I really, really dislike searching for things, shopping, and trying on different things—figuring out what's going to work and what's not. I just feel so frustrated when I have to spend time doing that. I think it's such a waste of time and there are so many other things that I’d rather be doing.In the past, I think pretty early on, I learned about my body type and what works for me. And the thing about most brands—unless they're very expensive brands, like Margiela, Comme des Garçons, that level—is that they’re not very consistent in the lines and the clothing that they make.So, for example, with Anthropologie or J.Crew, those kinds of brands—they just make anything and everything. When I would wear some of those brands (and I’m a big Anthropologie fan, just as an example), it was like: I’d have to look and not understand exactly what they’re doing this season. It would be all over the place. Some stuff worked, some stuff didn’t. Just very annoying.I am a fan of Issey Miyake. That said, their lines are consistent, but those lines don’t look great on me. There are very few pieces that actually work for me.Anyway, long story long—I was in New York, and I wanted to go to the Issey Miyake store because I was willing to spend time finding the one thing that might work for me. But the store was very busy—it’s a small store in Soho—and I didn’t want to deal with that. So I was like, let me just walk around and see what else is out here.Tibi was right around the corner. I didn’t know anything about the brand because it’s not that well known. I’m also not very engaged in style content on social media—at least before Substack—so I didn’t know anything about them.I walked in, and there was a stylist there, Grace, who was super nice. She talked about the brand, I was interested in some of the clothes, she helped me try them on—and I instantly fell in love. Literally 90% of the stuff looked good on me and the lines worked well for me. I ended up buying three things, walked out still not knowing about the style classes or anything like that.Then I did a few email exchanges with Grace afterward to figure out shoe sizing—because their sizing is all over the place. That’s when she told me about the style class, I started watching it, and the rest is history.But truly, I think what drew me to them is that they are very consistent in the kind of clothes they make. And most of their lines work really well on me. They do make some clothes where the lines don’t work well on me, and I just know that and steer clear of those silhouettes.Maureen: Yeah. And I know from your writing that you have a specific definition of what “lines” mean and what looks good on you. I just wanted to take an opportunity to clarify—what does looking good mean for you personally?Aastha: It's such a great question. I think for me, it's a combination of what aesthetically looks good. I think that is important, because sometimes we gaslight ourselves or others into thinking, “Oh, it doesn't matter. You know, it's fine. It's not about flattering.” And it is not about flattering.Maureen: I agree.Aastha: So that whole idea of the lines working for me—one is, is it giving me aesthetically what I want? And two, is it expressing what I want to express?For example, my body type—and this is a caveat because it might come up throughout our chat—I'm very neutral in how I talk about my body. Hopefully this is not triggering for anyone, but my body type is: I have broad shoulders, very narrow hips, my waist-to-hip ratio isn’t much. The way I like to look is basically broad shoulders and then a vertical line from there. So I don't like cinching my waist.Because of the way my body is, my shoulders are broader than the rest of my body. As long as something has broad shoulders and falls straight down, that column look, I really like. Also, one of my style words is “commanding,” and that look is commanding. So it's a good combination of how I want to look plus the lines that I think look good on me. That’s how I typically think about clothes and whether they give me the lines I want.Maureen: Let's talk about your style words. I loved your post about that and how you moved from style words that describe clothing to style words that describe how you want to feel in your outfit. I'd love to hear you talk about your style words in more detail and how you got to them.Aastha: Yeah, I was wondering where this came from. From the very beginning, when I started thinking about style words, for me, it was in the graphic design context. We were taught as an exercise that before you design a poster—you come up with three adjectives. They were not called style words, just three adjectives to describe what you’re going for. Our professor said not to use overly visual words because, he said, that's not exciting. If one of your words is “linear,” I already know your poster is going to have lines. That's a wastage of words.Even before that, I think this idea of labels is very Western. Minimalist, maximalist, boho, retro—that’s not how we thought about design in India. Growing up, we weren’t boxed into one style; sometimes minimal, sometimes maximal, sometimes inspired by Western dressing, sometimes Indian. So that whole labeling idea didn’t work for me—maybe because I grew up in India.Combine that with what I learned in grad school, and the idea that style words would be like “70s” didn’t work either. What if I don’t want to feel 70s someday? That’s possible. But I liked the idea of using words to describe what I’m trying to communicate and how I want to feel. Words about me as a person, not just how I want to look, because how I look can change. Anchoring in feelings and personality makes the words more stable—they’ll evolve, but not day by day.Even today, I’m wearing a navy dress with a black blazer. Yesterday, I was wearing super colorful clothes. If my words were minimal versus maximal, or neutral versus colorful, it wouldn’t work. That’s why I gravitate toward feeling words.Maureen: Yeah, I mean, for the idea of intuitive style, that post was one I read and thought, “Ooh, I wish I wrote that.” It connected so well with dressing intuitively and paying attention to how we feel in our bodies with what we’re wearing. Choosing style words that communicate feelings is so much more expansive and allows for creativity in what we mean by the words we choose.I’m probably going to write a post on this, but you and I have been chatting offline about what my style words might be—moving from words like “minimal” or “classic” (how I could describe past clothing) to being in the midst of a style transformation. Sometimes I like to accentuate my waist. My lines will continue to be classic, but I’m moving my words toward “creative,” “free,” and “modern.” What I loved about your post is that it really makes space for evolving and changing our minds.If I were to rewrite my style words right now based on an aesthetic vision in my head, and I tried those things and they didn’t actually work on my body, it could cause a disconnect between our aesthetic preferences and how we feel in our own bodies. So I feel like by choosing these feeling words, the thing that is the most important is how that actually translates to real life and respecting our aesthetic preferences without making our aesthetic preferences the most or the only important factor in what we choose to wear. What do you think about that?Aastha: I really like that. I think it's also this approach, and this connects to what you were saying. It's coming from the inside out versus outside in, right? Because one approach could be looking at Pinterest, collecting all these pins, and saying, “Okay, this is a classic look. One of my words is classic because I like this.” Right. There's nothing wrong with looking at Pinterest. I love Pinterest. I'm a very frequent user. But the problem with that is exactly what you said. You might try on those lines and realize, actually, that doesn't work so well on me. So now what do I do? Do I have to start over?Instead, you just say, “Hey, I am someone who values freedom and I want to feel free.” You might think that translates to clothing like straight lines, no cinching. Or you might say, no, actually for you that just means natural fiber. Or someone else might say that for them it means wearing revealing clothing and being completely free in that because that's how they express it—and all of that is valid. They're still free; how they express it is their choice. No one else needs to look at it and say, “That person is free.”Maureen: Yeah, I just went down a mental rabbit hole about being online and writing about style online, and how we are—and I say this about myself—right? We're choosing to make public something that is at the same time very private and personal. How do you deal with that cognitive dissonance between, “This is for me” versus choosing to share online and making something public?Aastha: Yeah. It's a great question. I think first of all, it is when we're able to do that, right? Because you are opening yourself to critique. Now, for the most part, Substack is like a bubble where most everyone is nice, but I also post things on Instagram where that's not the case. I think it comes down to everyone's reason for doing it.And to me, how it makes sense is—this goes way beyond style—my mom was someone who spent a lot of her life truly enabling other women to feel autonomous and have the agency that she perhaps herself wasn't given. And she actually fought for herself to get that agency. That is how she raised us.The reason for me and the “why” is because I truly write so that I can share. I just want to give women permission, as much as possible, through living my own life the way I want to. Because the truth is, many of us put too many barriers in our own minds sometimes. Some of these barriers are real, but some are not. It's just that we have grown up with shame, boundaries, rules about what we can or cannot do, what we can or cannot say.And I think the more we are upfront with each other in sharing how we think about stuff and not being apologetic about how we live our lives, the more permission it gives to the collective. So yes, it is uncomfortable, but that is my “why” that makes it worth it. If someone can look at me and think, “Oh, she can wear shorts to work, I can do the same,” or whatever their version of that might be, it’s worth it if it’s even one person. That’s my hope—that just setting an example for women is something all of us are doing, including yourself.Maureen: That's really beautiful. And the story about your mom too—it is so important to know our references. It sounds like your mom led by example. When we think about having purpose in our life, I think that's very top of mind for a lot of people. Having a clear passion that you care about and can devote yourself to—what is better than that? I think that's the best thing we can experience on earth.Aastha: Yeah, I completely agree. I think this is connected to the first thing we were talking about—the first topic of living every day and finding happiness in your every day, whether it's your outfit, how you're living your life, or what job you're doing. Because if it's connected to your purpose, any of this, you'll feel it. If it's not, you'll feel the dissonance too. That's why I try to optimize for how it actually feels to me. That's why I like my job. I like where I live, like all of it. It has to be giving me happiness on a day-to-day basis.And not just… of course, you'll have crappy days at your job, but we all know the difference between that and just, “This is not for me.”Maureen: Let's talk about “this is not for me” in clothing. My question that I ask everyone is, I’m getting more interested in the why behind why people decide what to wear rather than what they’re actually wearing. Understanding that you have a go-to roster, particularly Tibi, maybe within a particular collection or based on what you already have—how do you decide what to buy and wear? And how do you decide what not to buy and wear?Aastha: I have a very good idea of stuff that just won’t work on me. But I still keep trying some of it, knowing it's not going to work on me. But it’s more to verify and train my mental model. Like there’s a dress they did this season—I saw it, and one of my friends who is also into Tibi was like, “This is going to look so bad on me.” She agreed. A day later, I put it in my consignment box to verify. She goes, “Me too.” The minute I put it on, I was like, yes, I was right. But now I know, because I get consignment boxes from Tibi, so I can try it on and send it back. It comes down to some things I just know.Aastha: I’ll tell you my filter, because some of it applies to Tibi, but some is more global. I’m very particular about colors. I wear any color, all colors, but it has to be a nuanced color. That’s what I really like about it. Tibi is excellent at it. Dries is excellent at it. Rick Owens is another brand I like for their colors. They don’t do simple colors. Even their bright red is a nuanced bright red. Stunning colors.If I see something and the color is just not there, I won’t even bother.The second filter is lines. Anything that cinches at the waist, any drop waist, anything where the shoulders feel constricted—doesn’t work for me. Tibi has this top that’s very famous, a lot of people love it. Trini loves it. But it doesn’t work for me because it makes my shoulders feel smaller, and I like the opposite. I like free shoulders—tank tops—or big shoulder pads and things that drape off the shoulder. Lines are important, but that still leaves a lot of Tibi items I could buy. I have to be reasonable in how much I can actually buy.Right now, my foundational wardrobe is pretty set for any brand. I look more for what adds a spark that might be missing from my closet. For example, I just bought a pair of black tropical wool pants called the Meyer pants—they have a gusset detail on the sides, in the hips. Kind of looks weird, kind of designed. That’s another reason I like Tibi—you get a lot of design for the price. You won’t find other brands in that price range doing pushed design like that.I added those because I only have one pair of black pants—I don’t need more than that. But these pants are not simple trousers; they add something. That’s typically how I look at stuff now: is it adding that spark? Is it something I might be missing right now?Maureen: I want to go back in time. One thing I’m struggling with—and I’m sure I’m not the only person—is how do we figure out what we do and don’t like to begin with? Pre-Tibi, for example, what was that process like? I feel like it can be easy to think about what you don't like in the context of what you do like. So I know I like this, and so this thing isn't that, so therefore it doesn't work for me. But let's say you're having a hard time finding the things that you do like to begin with. How do you go about doing that? Is there any workaround other than just trying on like a million things?Aastha: There are—I'm not saying not, maybe not a million things—but this is why I write about lines, shapes, colors, and all of this. To me, lines are one of the most important things in clothing because it changes how your body looks, and that is a very important part of style. That’s basically the entire foundation of style.I had an unfair advantage because I knew about lines and shapes from design, so I found it pretty early on. But if people don’t have that, I would say invest first in learning about your body lines, what you like, and being okay with that.Because again, there’s so much about, “Oh, you don’t need to show your waist.” But sometimes we tell ourselves we are wrong in feeling what we inherently know because it’s cool for someone else to wear oversized clothing. We see Copenhagen Fashion Week, everyone’s in oversized things, and that’s cool. So maybe I should like it.I am very consistent in my lines because my style is all over the place if you think about the kind of things I wear. But if you look at the lines, completely consistent. It’s very rare for me to have a cinched waist. That’s been the case for a long, long time.I found pretty early on that I like my shoulders to look broad and my fabric to fall straight. Pretty much everything I wear aligns with that. So I would say invest in finding out what lines you like. There aren’t that many options:* Shoulders: do you like it to feel narrow or broad? That’s a big one.* Neckline: do you want it high or low?* Waist: very important, because a lot of clothing is either cinched or not, slightly cinched, etc. How do you want that to feel?* Hips: tighter or more space?And then vertical line. No one likes to feel shorter, but I can think of Ariana Grande—she doesn’t go for long lines. Sabrina Carpenter, she doesn’t go for long lines. They clearly like more petite lines on their body. Do you like that? Do you like one sweeping long line? I feel like as long as people can figure this out, everything else kind of takes care of itself. And then don’t try to trick your mind into, “No, this is fashionable, so I’m going to choose it.” If you don’t like some lines on yourself, you’re just never going to like them. That’s the reality of it.And then don’t try to trick your mind into, “No, this is fashionable, so I’m going to choose it.” If you don’t like some lines on yourself, you’re just never going to like them. That’s the reality of it.Maureen: Yeah, I think I’m going back to my question. So this was my theory when I first started writing. I think you’ve said this before, and I think you’re saying it again now: a big part of the idea of dressing intuitively, dressing authentically, is that there’s a general disconnect between the things we feel in our bodies and the preferences we have. And we’ve been made to feel wrong about them in some way due to the culture we grow up in, the specific people we interact with, the social and cultural norms, and where we grew up. So it’s less about making our preferences and more about trying to listen closely to what’s already there. Is that kind of the line of thinking for you?Aastha: I agree with that. It might feel like you’re coming up with something new, but it’s not. It’s about the unlearning or peeling away layers of what might not actually be your beliefs but you have absorbed.Like, on the opposite side, maybe someone grew up with their mom always telling them, “Don’t hide your body.” So maybe they’ve been cinching their waist and they don’t because they believe that’s true. In that case, it becomes more about unlearning and going back to what they truly like.And here's the thing, right? It's hard. On one hand, it's hard to tap into your intuition. On the other hand, it's also one of the easiest things to do. It coexists because we know you can sense it. So really tapping into when you can sense it and you just feel like it doesn't feel good—listening to that.And you can see it, right? Like I've seen videos of people, TikToks and whatnot. I bet if you look closely, you will see when someone is uncomfortable in what they're wearing. It's a very small energy shift, but it happens.Maybe sometimes it's even about recording yourself—record yourself trying clothes on, like a video, and you watch it and see, do you look happy? Because energy doesn't lie, and you'll be able to read it. How else does it feel in your body when you feel uncomfortable in something versus when you feel very aligned?I know you practice somatic therapy, so this will sound familiar to you. But for someone listening, they might be like, what the hell are these California girls talking about?If you tap into your body, there are actual sensations that you feel, right? Like if it feels uncomfortable, you might not feel it right away, but close your eyes, breathe into it, and see the physical sensation. Try to find that physical sensation: “I feel warmth in my shoulders in a bad way,” or “I feel something stuck in my waist.”With my shoulder constriction thing, for example, a baby tee—Tibi makes baby tees every season. I’ve tried that so many times. I hate it every single time. The way they move it, the seam is here and then the sleeve is right here. It makes it look like my shoulders are being compressed in. It just feels icky.The way I describe it to my somatic therapist: it just feels like something icky in your body. Not going too woo-woo, but you can even think about what kind of sound does it make? What does it smell like? Is there a color that comes to mind? None of those things are good in my mind if I think about how that top makes me feel. It feels like a muddy gray and brown, just squeezing my shoulders together, like nothing is able to escape.So if you're listening and thinking, what the hell is this woman talking about? Maybe this is like advanced somatics, but it can start with just breathing into it: “I don't feel good about it. Can I find any sensation in my body? If I had to describe it with a color, a sound, a feeling?” I bet you'll be able to find at least one thing and then go from there.Maureen: Yeah, I mean, it's so beautiful to me because I feel that the act of choosing to listen to our bodies is a radical act. And when we choose to do that, we are saying that we care about ourselves, our human existence, our quality of life. We are inhabiting main character energy—not in a way that my experience is superior to someone else's, but that mine is still important.I know this might sound like a tangent, but choosing to pay attention to our experience and validating it—as you were saying with our preferences, for example, not questioning our preferences once we discover them—is powerful. We don't feel this need to overexert or defend our position against other people. We don't need to make ourselves less than either.For me, this practice of dressing intuitively and paying attention to how my body feels is about finding a balance between being the most important person in the world or the least important person in the world. Just being like, I am equally as valid and important as every other soul.I know this is the epitome of woo-woo, but it's a mindset we can bring to every part of our existence. Paying attention to our clothes and how they feel on our body, validating that preference, can have a ripple effect on other decisions we make and how we treat other people. I'm curious—do you feel that it goes beyond clothing? Is it just about the visual aesthetic?Aastha: It's not. It definitely goes beyond. Clothing is a reflection of how you treat yourself and what you think about yourself. At the same time, it can become a vehicle to change how you think about yourself. It's a symptom of what's happening underneath, but also a lever to change your perspective—about yourself, the world, whatever.A very small example is, like one thing that I noticed a long time ago… I've been married for like 13 years or something at this point. Many years ago, before I started thinking about this, if my husband had to use the bathroom, he would be like, “I need to use the bathroom,” if we are out and about. That's the first thing he's doing. I would be like, okay, let's do this, and then I can do… How many women don't use the bathroom because there are other important things going on? Like, this is a real thing. We’ll hold our needs because, oh no, I have to do this thing or this person needs me.That's such a basic bodily need—like not drinking water on time. Food also is another one, but food is more loaded, so I’ll leave that out for now. But we don’t even honor our body’s need to use the bathroom. Even starting there is something.But that reflects in style, right? So now we approach it from the angle of honoring our own needs. If we feel like, “I like having my waist defined,” I’m going to do it, even if it’s fashionable on TikTok to wear oversized things. You are now teaching yourself to honor what you want. Maybe you are wrong. Maybe five years down the line, you discover that actually, you don’t like a cinched waist. That’s fine. The most important thing is you’re honoring what feels right in the moment. That’s it. Just doing that is very powerful.Maureen: What’s exciting you in fashion right now?Aastha: What’s exciting me in fashion? I feel like I’m a horrible person to ask this question because I’m not someone who stays updated on all the trends.Maureen: What’s exciting you in general? It doesn’t have to be fashion.Aastha: You know what? As soon as you asked me that, I was like, let me tell you what’s exciting me in fashion, actually. I’m very excited. I’m going to give you a very specific answer. I’m very controversial, but I’m very excited about Demna going to Gucci. I’m excited about what’s going to happen because I love the Gucci era and what they were doing back then. Somehow this whole quiet luxury thing happened, and Gucci tried to do quiet luxury, and it’s just not them—it’s not authentic.Now I don’t know what’s going to happen with his vision at Gucci, but I have high expectations. I’m expecting weird, kitschy, bold things with colors and metallics. Maybe he does that, maybe he doesn’t—I don’t know—but that is literally exciting me about the future of where some of this fashion can go.Broader than that, I’m very encouraged by the conversations we have on Substack. It’s a very small community right now. Maybe as it grows, it won’t stay the same—it probably won’t—but still, the fact that we are going deeper into these layers, talking about style and how it impacts our daily and personal lives, I think there is more empowerment happening for women despite what is happening in the world at large. I find hope in that and excitement, that on a personal level, we seem to be empowering each other versus shutting down in our own corners.Maureen: Yeah, that’s really beautiful. In the grand political scheme, to find those ways to experience joy and connection. We’re coming towards the end of our time. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Aastha: I think the big one would be: don’t expect it to be one-and-done. It’s not like I’m just going to go through it and be done. It’s an ongoing process. Another is to strip away your learnings that you know are not correct as much as possible. Sit, feel into it, and you will know: these lines are not good for me, I want to wear colors, I want this, I want that. Be okay with that—even if it’s not what your friends are wearing, even if it’s not what’s trendy on Substack. Giving yourself permission to do that is very powerful.If that sounds scary, start with one day a week where no one will see you. You’re at home, wear whatever you want to wear, see how that feels, and then gradually build up from there. That is truly the most important piece of unlearning things and giving yourself permission to like what you like, irrespective of what you hear around you—including on Substack.Maureen: Wise words to sign off on.Aastha: Thank you.Maureen: Where can listeners find you? Where are you most active?Aastha: On Substack as Fit Happens, and I’m also on Instagram: Asta Hearts. I’m guessing you’ll leave links so people can find it. I’ll quickly say, people get confused about my name because I write Aastha/Asta. The longer word is how you spell my name, but Americans typically don’t know how to say [my name] and get confused about the placement of the H. I made it shorter so people know how to say it—it’s like “pasta.” That’s the story behind the dual name.Maureen: That makes sense. I’m sorry people don’t get your name.Aastha: It’s one of those things where once you tell them, they have no problem saying it—it’s just not intuitive for Americans.Oh, this was such a great conversation, Maureen! Seriously, I wasn’t just saying that to make you feel good. You’re doing important work in this space, and I really appreciate it. I am very excited about this episode, and all the other episodes.Maureen: Yes, thank you! Thank you for always being my style therapist. I always come to you with struggles, and you have great suggestions. This conversation was no different. Thank you for being yourself on the internet, showing self-acceptance and self-love, and neutrality on some days too. Personally, I’ve started to pay attention to what I’m jealous of—people who can accept themselves—and your example is really helpful for me to see that’s possible.Aastha: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. This was fun. I’ll see you on the internet.Maureen: Thanks everyone for listening. OutroIntuitive Style is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Maureen McLennon Welton. Our theme music is by Tim Reed and Jacob Welton. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style the podcast is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the newsletter. Head over to Substack, and search Intuitive Style to read the newsletter—which covers reflections on personal style, guest features, and encouragement that there is no wrong way to get dressed. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share with someone who might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays. Thanks, see you next week. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This is the LAST episode of Season One of Intuitive Style the podcast, featuring one of my long-time inspirations, Christine Platt. I’ve kept up with Christine’s social media for years, since I first discovered Minimalism in earnest back in 2020. Her approach to intentional-living is unparalleled, leading with introspection, questioning everything, and being open to surprise. She’s also recently joined Substack herself at Lessons on Liberation, give her a follow! I can’t think of a better person to wrap up the first season with. While we’re on break for summer, you can catch up with all of the incredible previous guest episodes here. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.Maureen: You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest really needs no introduction, but I'm going to give her her flowers anyway. She's a multi-genre author, a trailblazer for representation in the lifestyle and wellness space. And a voice so many of us turn to for wisdom and inspiration. You might already follow her on Instagram or perhaps, you know, her beautiful book, The Afro-Minimalist Guide to Living with Less. I'm honored to welcome her to the show, Christine Platt.Christine: Thank you so much for having me, Maureen. I'm happy to be here.Maureen: Likewise, I'm so excited to get to talk to you today. I'll just jump in with one of the aspects of your work that really resonates with me. Especially reflected by the title of your upcoming book, Less is Liberation, is how you move towards what is good rather than simply away from what's bad. And so you center alignment, possibility, empowerment, rather than focusing on restriction or lack or even comparison, right? And that approach has really stayed with me and makes me feel empowered, loved, deeply capable, all the best things. Can you share how you came to see the world in that way? And how did you learn to find expansion where others might see limitation?Christine: You know, this is the new sort of muscle that I have learned to exercise. It's almost like we're taught to be hard on ourselves. You know what I mean? So for so many years, I was just so hard on myself. And, you know, there's a quote in The Afro-Minimalist Guide that is still a mantra that I live by, which is: I am not a grown woman, I am a growing woman. And I think that that mantra helped me sort of move from this space of like, “You should know better, you should…” you know what I mean? Just being really negative and hard on myself to being in this place of like, wow, you're growing, you're expanding, you're learning something new every day.And the other part of that quote is, And may I always be growing. So I'm not a grown woman, I'm a growing woman, and may I always be growing. And I think that leaves space for us to not be so hard on ourselves and understand we're all students of life. We're all trying to figure it out. And there's just no reason for us to be as hard on ourselves as we are. Like when I look back on my younger years, I'm like, I was so mean to myself. You know what I mean? I was so hard on myself—and why? And again, I think so much of it is learned behavior. So learning to look at myself, reframing a lot of what I've been told as a child, unlearning a lot of what I've been told by society, and really getting into the space of like, you know what? Let me love myself. Let me love myself through all of these life lessons, through these journeys. And it's just been beautiful. I mean, I think what a gift, right? To be able to reflect, sit back with ourselves, learn from— I don’t want to say mistakes—so many of the lessons that we have had throughout our lifetime. And really look at them through a lens of love instead of being so critical and understand that they have really helped shape and make us who we are.Maureen: So I'd love to hear from your perspective—could you share a little more detail on how do you actually change that self-talk in the micro moments? Do you have an approach to catching those negative thoughts?Christine: Yeah. I mean, I think we catch them all the time, right? They're more like limiting beliefs—that's what I speak to them as in Less is Liberation. They’re these limiting beliefs that have become a part of our narrative, that have really started to take over our lives, become rules that we live by. They influence our behaviors and what we think about ourselves. And in those moments, it’s almost like catching yourself, like you said, in real time. When I hear myself being critical, just pausing—the power of pause has been a big part of my practice. And that is pausing when I'm saying something to myself and I'm like, wait, where did that come from? Pausing to self-assess, pausing to be introspective. And then in that moment, reframing. Because it's in that reframing where we get to tell ourselves new stories, where we get to look at past circumstances that may have truly been life-altering and defining for us in one way—and reframe them in another way that becomes more empowering.So for example—excuse me, here in DC the pollen is crazy, so I’m going to apologize now for any coughing—but for example, being very critical of ourselves and saying something like, “Man, I just should have worked harder on that,” even when we know that we gave something our all. Pausing to say, “What—you did work hard. What makes you think that you could have worked harder?” And it starts this drill-down of messaging and conditioning. And it’s just like, “Well, I could have worked harder because I went to bed at nine. I could have probably stayed up until eleven.” And then: “Well, why do you feel like you need to stay up until eleven?” “Well, I was taught…” You know what I mean? It’s a lot of self-talk.And I think that’s a part of “doing the work” that people don’t really talk about—is that it’s really conversations that we have with ourselves. We spend so much time seeking external validation. We spend so much time looking for answers outside of ourselves, when all the while, the answers are right within us. And so doing that introspective work, asking myself “why?”—repeatedly drilling down—is where I found out like, man, I really am a people pleaser. I didn’t realize that I was a people pleaser, right? Because I’d reframed it in other ways: “I’m just helpful,” “I’m just kind,” “I’m just sharing,” right? And then really sitting with myself one day and being like, no, this is people-pleasing behavior. Why? Where did this come from?That work—that reframing—it almost has to happen either in real time or through being introspective. So if you can’t catch it in real time, make time every day to be introspective. But what most of us do—and I’m not pointing fingers, because I feel like the way our lives are, the way society is set up, we live in this capitalist world, we’ve been taught to consume and work—most of us don’t make time for that introspection. We don’t make time to self-assess. But in those little moments of self-assessment is where that reframing happens. It’s where you get to reclaim your narrative, reclaim yourself, and really start to do things differently.And I like to say, we can replace our limiting beliefs with liberating beliefs. So we can say—man, it’s funny, I’ve worked through so many I can’t even think of one! But I’ll try. Like one was: “I have to work hard,” or “I have to get it done or no one else is going to do it.” Replacing that with a liberating belief: “I am not the only one who is capable of doing it. Other people are also able to do it. And me giving them time and space to do that is also enlightening and helpful for their journey.” Just replacing it in real time with something that is liberating, as opposed to berating ourselves all the time.So if I can think of a practice or a “how to,” it is just: make time every day to think about, “Where did this thought come from?” We know the thoughts that aren’t serving us. Then question it—just do a little inquiry.Maureen: Yeah.Christine: Don't know. Have you ever heard of the book... oh my goodness. I can, I can see it—it's Michael Singer and...Maureen: Yeah.Christine: It is...Maureen: Is...Christine: You...Maureen: This...Christine: Know...Maureen: The...Christine: Like...Maureen: Untethered Soul?Christine: I'm talking...Maureen: I'm...Christine: Yes.Maureen: Obsessed with that book.Christine: Oh my God. It's so good. So, you know what I'm about to say, which is that inner roommate, man. It's our inner roommate. And when he talks about—I don't know if you've listened to the audiobook—but the audiobook is so funny because...Maureen: I'll check it out.Christine: Yeah, like you really—I have the physical copy and the audiobook too—but the audiobook is so funny because you really get to hear how our inner roommate is like so unhinged, right?Maureen: Yes.Christine: So it's like, we have that thought like, "Man, I should have worked harder"—that inner roommate. And for those who haven't read The Untethered Soul, first of all, you should. And then secondly, what we're talking about is like our psyche, that part of ourselves that narrates our life around us and what's happening. But we become, I don't know, like beholden to that voice. And we think it is a part of us. Right? And so if we have that thought—"Man, I should have worked harder"—our inner roommate is like, "Yeah, you should have. You know who I bet was working harder? So-and-so. And you know what? I bet so-and-so is going to get that promotion at night," right?So I've also learned to silence my inner roommate and distinguish between what I'm thinking and feeling and what my psyche is just narrating based on my experiences and life around me. It's not me. And I think that book has been so crucial in helping me learn how to reframe and reclaim my narrative and distinguish between what I am thinking and feeling and what my inner roommate is narrating.Maureen: I mean, this is just so beautiful to me because I’ve always connected with your work and I didn’t know why. Like, you know what I mean? I can say all the reasons why, but there’s also just a feeling of like—there’s something about the way that you approach the world that is exactly how I’m trying to approach the world. I've never seen you explicitly reference that book before, but that book is also for me one of the biggest pillars in my life that I return to. My copy—I specifically bought a physical copy so that I could highlight and reread and reread and reread because it’s basically how to practice meditation without having to, you know, dedicate—like sit on the floor with your legs crossed.Christine: Yeah.Maureen: The whole practice of meditation is so that we can be mindful in any moment throughout our day. And what I love about his book is that there’s no meditation. Everything is meditation and nothing is meditation because it's simply being aware all the time. And just that self-acceptance. And, you know, transparently, I think it’s a practice—I imagine you agree. And sometimes that practice will be better and we will have our negative self-talk more under control. And there will be other times where that negative self-talk is higher. And, you know, I keep thinking I need to go back and read that book because my self-talk is getting worse. And I’m like, oh—I know it’s happening, and I know that I have this ability to interact with it in a different way. And I haven’t been. I’ve been looking on my phone instead, I’ve been criticizing other people and being really reactive. I can’t believe that you just brought that up. Like, it's so beautiful.Christine: That book has, like, been life-changing for me. That and The Pathway of Surrender. I can’t think of the author—I think it’s Dr. Hawkins. Really helping me understand. Because I mean, for me, I didn’t—I wasn’t aware of my inner roommate. I feel like now I should do a post about it because I don’t think a lot of people are aware of that inner voice. And once I learned, number one, that I can’t really make it shut up—it’s always... When he’s like, you know, it’s like in chapter one or chapter two, and he’s like, “You spend a little time with your inner roommate and you realize really quickly you’re locked in there with a maniac,” I remember just bursting out laughing because I was like, my inner roommate is so unhinged.But because I didn’t realize it was my inner roommate, I thought it was me. I would listen to it, right? So if it’s like, “Oh my God, you’re so stupid. I can’t believe you just did that,” I would be like, “I am so stupid. Why did I do that?” Right? Whereas now I recognize that and I talk back. You know what I mean? Like, I’m like, “I’m not actually stupid. I actually knew what I was doing, and that was a wise decision.” I had to learn to really challenge that inner roommate. And anyone that has—I love talking to other people that have read that book. I said, you can’t unsee it. You know what I mean? Like you can’t unsee it. And so you start to realize all the ways your psyche, your inner roommate—which is just there much like fear, right? Like these are things that are never going to go away because biologically they have been designed to protect us. And so understanding how to manage that and navigate that and let it work in concert with my life rather than dictate my life or determine my life—getting a handle on managing that inner roommate.Maureen: Yeah.Christine: Learning how to reframe is so important. Another book is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. That’s another book where I love the audiobook and listen to it every year. It’s like having a life coach. And one of the things that she talks about in that book is fear, right? And this idea that, you know, we’ve been taught like, stop being afraid—and it’s like, we can’t. Because fear is like a biological trigger designed to protect us. So how do we manage that fear? We say to ourselves, like she says in the book, “Listen, we’re about to go on a ride together and you’re going to have to come along, fear, because I can’t get rid of you. But what you’re going to do is, you’re going to sit in that passenger seat and don’t touch anything. Don’t say anything.” Right? Like, you are just here along for the ride, but I’m steering the car.And so I think all of these things that we talk about—like managing our lives and navigating our lives—really boils down to learning how to manage and navigate ourselves. And I think for so many years, I kept looking for solutions outside of myself.Maureen: Yep.Christine: So I think that’s why I write the way I do. It’s why I share the things that I do because I want people to know like, yes, you are the problem, but you are also the solution.Maureen: Yes.Christine: Which is very beautiful, you know. And so I think a lot of what we’re doing in this space—a lot of the work that you’re doing—it isMaureen: I think it would be nice to try to share like a couple examples of like a decision that we would make differently today with this mindset of self-compassion or this mindset of awareness. So, like, one that comes to my mind is that I lived for a very long time in a place that I did not enjoy living in. It was a place that every single day I felt out of alignment. I felt that I was compromising on every aspect of my life by choosing to live in a place that was affordable but did not make me feel joyful. And so when I went through the process of self-acceptance and self-compassion towards I don't have to choose to live in this less expensive place at the risk or at the cost of hating my life, I actually can have the choice to go live in the place that I want to live and I will make affordances for my life like moving in with my family in order to live in that more expensive place. So that's an example from my life. Are there any examples that you can think of, of how this mindset truly changed the course of your life?Christine: Yeah, I mean, I love that you use that example because I think there are so often, so many times that we look back on our lives and we're like, Man, what I would have done differently, what I would have changed, what I wish I would have known. And I think what I've been redoing, what I've been doing is like even reframing those decisions that we can't undo, right? And like looking back and saying like, like in your example, I would say like, man, I can't believe I stayed in that place that long. But you know what, I learned a lot of valuable lessons staying in that place, right? Like, I learned I will never compromise and sacrifice my safety, my love for myself, right? Like, it's taking even those decisions that we can't change and reframing it and thinking about what we did learn from those moments. I think for me, I mean, I have like, my whole life is an example. This is an example, right? I mean, I feel like I've spent so much time looking back and learning to forgive myself, right? And I think that forgiveness, that compassion comes from a place of forgiveness, right? And saying like, man, I forgive myself for making that choice. It wasn't the best choice for me at the time, you know? But I survived. I learned a lot. I'm grateful, right? What am I going to take with that and take from that experience and move forward, right? And I think what I used to do, I definitely was a person who always saw the glass half empty rather than half full, half before in here. So very practical. And I think for many years it really limited my outlook on life. Right. And so it's almost like I had to learn, relearn, unlearn, like the glass is not, the glass is only half empty if I say it's half empty, if I say it's half full, someone right. Like it's almost like we, it's a lot of self-talk and I think it's through those moments of how you feel after you work through that, that that is like the biggest sort of selling point, right? Like I can, we can sit here. We're glowing. We're happy. We do this work all the time. Not that it's always easy, but this has become a part of our practice, right, is to really hone in on our mindset and think about, okay, what am I thinking? What am I doing? How am I going to move forward? But the biggest selling point for someone that hasn't done that is to say, just try it.Christine: Right? Take a moment in your life that you can't go back and change, right? That may still be defining and guiding your choices today. And reframe that in a way that is empowering, right? So moving from this place of it being a limiting belief to being an empowering and liberating belief. And I think what's so beautiful is that unlike many other species, we have the power to reframe our story and reinvent our lives and ourselves at any moment, right? So anytime I feel myself, and again, Capricorn here, so my default, my default self is to see that glass half empty. When I feel myself going down that road, when my inner roommate is like, yep, girl, it's half empty, like making time to pause, to reassess, to reframe, and practice true self-awareness and practice like truly being intentional about what I'm thinking, who I'm talking to, what I'm pouring into myself, what I'm saying to myself, what I'm saying to other people. I recently took like maybe two weeks away from social media because for that very reason I had to say like I want to be very intentional about how I am showing up on this shared timeline of our lives, right? Like if I don't have something meaningful to say, if I don't have something that's helpful and useful, I'm not sure that I should be adding to the noise. Now that's just me. But I feel very protective and very mindful of the fact that I do have an audience, that I do have people that are listening to what I'm saying. And so being intentional about that is very important to me. There was a time where I would have never paused because I would have been like, oh, my God, the algorithm. And then if I stop posting, they're going to stop showing me. You know what I mean? And saying like, none of that matters, right? What matters is that you are being authentic and honest and intentional about what you put out into the world. But that's like constant in the moment self-talk. And so, so much of it when we think about, you know, the leaders from our past and the gurus and you know, these folks that like, it's like what they were truly working on with self-mastery, that's essentially what we're talking about, right? Learning how to master yourself. I am in Washington DC right now. Like literally the White House is right down the street for me. Right. And it's like self-mastery is like, I am aware of what I can control. I am aware of what I can contribute. I am aware of what and who I need to be engaged with to maintain my sanity and focusing on that as opposed to like spending so much time focused on what I can't control. So much of this work is self-mastery. And I like to tell people like, I think we've been taught so much about collective liberation that we don't realize that collective liberation starts with personal liberation so it's like I can't help anyone else get free unless I'm free. And that freedom, that true freedom comes with self-mastery and really getting to know yourself.Maureen: I completely agree. And I was hoping to talk a little bit about living in DC and your other careers that you've had outside of the wellness space and how your advocacy and your leadership work in the private and public sector and academia, how do those relate to your conception of yourself and how potentially does that impact the way that you dress?Christine: You know, they are, it's so funny. It's like, those are like past lives, right? So I can look back on moments when I was like in big law or in academia and I was such a different woman then. It was so much. I very much felt that limiting belief that I had to dress the part. I had to look the part. Right. And becoming a minimalist broke me from that way of thinking. But, you know, I think now I have learned to embrace my personal style.I have on a dress right now that I love from Kaz and you know, learning, I love dresses, right? Like I hate pairing tops and bottoms, right? So why am I buying tops? And I just don't, I don't buy them unless it's already a set. And so I think those experiences and especially spending so much of my time, energy, money, trying to look a part that wasn't me. I think I'm even more intentional now that my style reflects who I am and understanding that style is always changing, always evolving. A book that really helped me that may help your readers and listeners is Courtney Carver. She had a book called Project 333. And basically it taught me how to live with thirty-three pieces for three months. And in that time period, when I had to be very intentional about what I was selecting to be part of my seasonal wardrobe, it really made me realize like what are the silhouettes that I love? And I think for anyone who's interested in having a capsule wardrobe or would really like to hone in on their personal style, it's usually those pieces that you naturally gravitate towards. So it's like when I'm in my closet and I've tried on ten different things and nothing is working and I'm just like, what am I going to wear? And it's that A-line dress from Paz that I gravitate towards. That's usually a sign that that is your signature style. It's like you have fifty pairs of jeans, but you wear the same two, which was my sort of issue. It's like, oh, it's because these jeans are the style of jean that I like. And so we are very much aware of our intuitive style and what works for us and what we love. The challenge is that our limiting beliefs, our inner roommate, what society is telling us, like we can allow those voices to dictate and change our mind. I'm using like funny quotes.When we know, right? So it's just like, someone's saying, oh my god, but you wore that dress two weeks ago. I don't care. I have a washing machine. You know what I mean? It's like getting to that place of not caring what other people may think about what you're wearing, how often you wear it. I'm a repeat wearer. I love the things that I have. And it's, I mean, I think I've become known for that now, but I remember early on, there was a time when I was making that switch where I was like, I mean, I just wore that red jumpsuit on a podcast. But it was just like, I'm gonna wear the red jumpsuit all the time because that is my, when I have that on and I hold up the book, it's a whole thing and I love it. And just being myself is a big part of embracing my style. So I look back to answer your question. I look back on those old versions of me and while I may have looked nice, while I may have looked the part, it was like putting on a costume. I was like performing. Right. And so I have since learned and becoming a minimalist again really helped with that. My intuitive style. I know it works for me and my body type and I know what makes me happy.Maureen: Yeah, and I think it's so important too that when we talk about a capsule wardrobe, we're not talking about specific pieces that everyone has to have, right? We're specifically talking about the things that you would wear all the time, I think you touched on this idea of we know what those pieces are that we want to wear. That for whatever reason, these limiting beliefs stop us from wearing. So like, I used to want to wear pants with like stretchy waistbands. And because I also identified as a creative person who was artistic and also fashion-oriented, I was like, oh, I can't wear those stretchy pants because they're not stylish. I will not be stylish. IChristine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: will look a certain type of way. So I feel that very deeply that there's a disconnect. We know what we want, but there's something inside of us telling us that we shouldn't do that. And so I approached a capsule wardrobe the same way as like just giving ourselves permission to wear the things that we want to wear without apology, without uh, you know, whatever.Christine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: And I do also acknowledge that sometimes they're, like, how do we grapple with the fact that sometimes the things that we want to wear actually make us physically unsafe? Um, I don't, I can't say that that's happened to me necessarily,Christine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: um, so it's not necessarily something that I can speak to, but. You know, there are instances where doing what you want to do, that authentic, uh, thing that you can't do actually could bring you harm. Do you have any thoughts on how to navigate that or?Christine: Yeah, I mean, I think I am a person who believes that it's like nothing that you are wearing should, nothing that you wear is bringing you harm. I think that's like another narrative. That we've been taught, right? I mean, I think wearing what you want and then being in the wrong environment with the wrong type of people can bring you harm, right? But it's not what you're wearing. Right. And I think it's, it's those, it's in those moments, like you're saying with the stretchy waistband and, you know, like, man, I can't wear that or man, I don't know if I could wear this out. And it's just like, those are those moments when you ask yourself why. Why do I feel like wearing this outfit to this event with these people that I can't be safe? I should be able to wear. Whatever I want, right? It is the people and the people in an environment that may be making, that may put me in harm's way. It's not what I'm wearing, right? And reclaiming that. And then you ask yourself, Well, why am I going to this environment if I can't wear what I want because it's going to put me in harm's way? Maybe you're out of alignment, right? Those are in those moments where I'm like, hmm, I'm not in alignment. Why can't I wear these with this people with these particular group of friends? They are going to make me feel X, Y, and Z. Hmm. Is this a genuine connection? Are these genuine connections? Because I should be able to wear Whatever I want with my friends and have them see me and celebrate me for who I am, not for what I have. Right. It's like in those moments, those are the why moments. You know what I mean?Maureen: When you put it like that, yeah, no, I mean, yeah.Christine: But, but it's taken time. I mean, I don't, I don't want to make it. I mean, like I'm almost fifty years old. So I've gone through all of these things. And I think what I've. Really learn to love and appreciate in this season of my life is being able to share and impart that on a younger generation because I remember that feeling, oh, I can't wear this for whatever reason, right? And looking back on those moments, it's like. I wasn't in alignment, right? With who I was with, with where I was going, with what I was doing. That was the real discomfort. It was never about the outfit.Maureen: Yeah.Christine: Right?Maureen: Yeah. Completely. Um. I'm just rethinking so much right now. No, I mean, I feel the same. Like, I can give an example that I talked about on a recent episode of the podcast where I was going to a bridal shower and I just hated the idea of wearing some sort of floral dress thing situation, which I'll wear for the wedding, but just like on a Saturday in someone's backyard, I'm like not trying to wear like a strapless dress, okay?Christine: Yeah.Maureen: But I knew that everyone else that was going to be there was going to be dressed like that. And so I was like, what do I like? Do I not go or do I just wear something else? And so I was like, I want to go. I want to support the bride and I'm going to wear jeans and I'm going to wear, I actually wear this cardigan that I'm wearing right now. I was like, I'm just gonna try. I'm just gonna dress how I want to dress at this event. It's still, like, formal enough. It's still respectful. And, you know, I didn't make compliments, but I also, like, no one looked at me and was like, are you wearing that?Christine: That's the other thing, like, we think people care more than they do, and I, and I say that all the time, I love that you brought that up, Maureen, because I say that all the time. Someone will say, well, what, what are they going to think? And I'm like, they aren't thinking about you as much as you think they are, right?Maureen: Yeah.Christine: We, there are times that I would talk myself out of something or allow my inner roommate to talk me out of something where people just wanted me to be there. You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure, like you said, even though you didn't get compliments, people weren't like, get out of here with your car to get in your jeans. You know what I mean? Those genuine connections, people see you and love you for who you are, not for what you have. I'm going to say that again. When it's a genuine connection. People see you for who you are, not for what you have. The clothing you wear, the handbags you're carrying, the house that you're living in, all those things are so Transact, they can be so transactional in nature when it comes to our friendships. And I think learning to differentiate between. Genuine connections and those that were transactional or surface. It has been life changing for me. Right. And that is that coming into alignment. Um, or as my coach says, my coach therapist, I feel like she's everything. She says, you know, like it's about being in right relation with people. And when you're in right relation, it just doesn't. All those things don't matter.Maureen: I think what I'm seeing too in real time is this It's this connection, I keep saying I'm having an existential crisis and I mean that in a positive way.Christine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: Like, in a way where the rest of my life is going to look so much more expansive Because I sat with the grief and I sat with all the things that I had to unlearn. And one example that I can think of right from this example of like, okay, if I want to go in this space and I have to be dressed in a certain way. That's because the systems and the people that are there are expecting that of me. And like, ultimately, it's about redefining success, right? Like, ifChristine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: I wanted to be on CNN as a tele, like, a reporter on camera, I would have to have my hair bleached and straightened and I'd have to wear like all these layers of makeup, right? That would be a specific definition of success that's related to power, money, whatever else. And so rather than go into that space, I'll instead, I don't actually want to do that to be clear. But rather than that, I will create a podcast where we can have engaging conversations and show up as ourselves. And it's just about redefining what success looks like for us.Christine: Yeah.Maureen: So that we can live in alignment rather than, you know, feeling that we have to have that specific version of success that forces us to, you know, be in that cycle of showing up as someone else.Christine: Yeah, and I mean, I think too, like, in those moments, it's like, is that true? So that's another, like, I ask myself why a lot. Excuse me. And I also ask myself, is that true?Maureen: Uh-huh.Christine: Right? And so, because I do think there are narratives and stories that we tell ourselves, right? We'll go through something and we'll say like, oh my God, everyone hates me. So when I, when I find myself talking in absolutes, I'm always like, is that true? And it's like one person, right? Maybe whoever I'm in, you know, whoever triggered this thought, right? But I think oftentimes too, like we tell ourselves, narratives and use those limiting beliefs to talk us out of even trying.Maureen: Mm-hmm.Christine: You know what I mean? So it's like, let me first try to get on CNN as myself.Maureen: You know, I can think of an example, actually, to your point where Nicole Byer, the comedian, she is a host on so many different shows and she doesn't wear high heels, she wears flats. And I remember watching her and thinking, I've never seen anyone do that before.Christine: Yeah.Maureen: And she did it. So, that’s such a good point.Christine: Sometimes ask yourself, is this true?Maureen: Right.Christine: Let me try first, right?Maureen: Mm-hmm.Christine: Because so much of the conditioning and the limiting beliefs are not just from our own personal experiences. It's what we see represented or it's what has been told or shown to us, right? And again, if it hasn't been modeled for you. If you've never seen anyone on any of these shows other than, you know, women who are wearing high heels, you think I have to wear high heels, right?Maureen: Uh-huh,Christine: But then you see someone that is wearing flats and you're like, so it is possible to wear flats. Let me try to wear flats, right? So I think also take some time to question, you know, like, is this true? Why? Why?Maureen: Christine, I'm growing. I'm growing from this call.Christine: Yeah, I mean, and this is like, it's so wild to be having this conversation because I have spent so much of the past two years doing this very work. I mean, Less is Liberation burst my soul wide open, right? Like I thought. Okay, the Afro-Minimalist Guide to Living with Less is about letting go of things that no longer serve you. This is going to be about letting go of limiting beliefs and behaviors. And it was like, whoa. Like you, I can't write about the process without going through the process and going through the process taught me just how deeply we're conditioned knowingly or unknowingly. Whether it was society, people who loved us, it doesn't matter, right? It's like, wow, like, I am at least asking myself why and is this true at least once or twice a day? Right. And I am like deep in this. And so I love that you say that you're growing. You know what I mean? I feel like that is. That's, that's why these conversations are so important. That's why this work is so important. It's so important for us to hear someone else's story, to see ourselves in someone else's story. To see that modeling and know what's possible because we don't, we don't know what we don't know.Maureen: Yeah, yeah. And we have all these preconceived notions of what it means to be a particular type of person or to be in a particular type of space. And just because it's been that way in the past doesn't mean that there's not an opportunity for it to be different in the future. And we just have to. Smartly and calculatedly, uh, listen to that. My husband and I do try our nest. I don't always get it right, right? Like, there are times where I'm like, man, that was the people pleaser in me that said you know? I'm gonna follow through it next time, right? It's not that you always get it right, but it is to say that I'm actively trying to not allow my life to be dictated by limiting things. Beliefs that I have about myself. And, um, that is, that's the work. And I think the inner work is beautiful.Maureen: Yeah, and I think what you do so well in your work, and I'm trying to emulate, is that the work that we are doing is... The work that we share. So basically like demonstrating rather than telling.Christine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: One other thing that I'm trying to do and you've talked about this with your social media pause, right? That's a great example of demonstrating to the people that are in your community and in your readership, I'm doing this too and I'm evaluating too and you Again, showing that example of like, I'm a creator who's doing this and if you, you know, you can do the same thing. And um, I'm taking a break from the podcast, which I love doing. I'm taking a break for the, for the summer. And you know, I had all these limiting thoughts in my head about like, oh, if I do that, what if I miss out on opportunities to have all these amazing guests? That will, like, just have happened, you know, right in that very particular moment in time.Christine: Mm-hmm.Maureen: And then I'm like, okay, but then would I be ready emotionally and otherwise to Rise to the challenge and show up in the way that I want to for these guests. And if I meet, if I, you know, push and try to have all these new episodes come out while I'm, you know, not in that headspace.Christine: Yeah.Maureen: You know, is that really the best decision that I can make? And so I'm pausing.Christine: Yeah. I mean, pausing is so important and I talk about it in Less is Liberation for that very reason, I think. We have been conditioned to think like, if I pause, I'm going to fall behind. If I pause, I'm going to miss out. And I can assure you. Like, we're like, no one's ever gonna ask to be on my puck and it's like, the ask will keep coming, the conversations will, like, part of that is like a scarcity mindset. When I have those thoughts, I'm like, ooh, Christine, like you're operating from a place of scarcity and like, yes, so what, like the first week The algorithm is going to be confused because now you're back online. But, you know, if twenty people like the post and in a month, those twenty people is one person. A couple hours ago, I checked that post and there was one woman who was like, man, this really resonated with me. She was talking about, you know, how obviously she worked for government and how—It has just altered. And, you know, she was like, wow, this post really resonated with me. And I closed the app and I was like, well, my work is done. You know what I mean? So I think it's also thinking about we've been conditioned to think about social media and, you know, it being a form of currency that I financially haven't been able to do anything with. I can't pay my daughter's tuition with likes. Right.Christine: But again, we've been conditioned to think like, oh man, if the posts didn't get this number of likes, then it wasn't— You know, effective. It wasn't High performing. And it's like, but man, if it helped one person think differently and if it helped them rethink and reframe how they're going to move through this difficult season in their life, isn't that more important than having 500 likes and no comments? You know what I mean? I think like it's in the, again, I've had to learn how to do that and how to reframe. Excuse me. You know, it's hard, you know, especially, I mean, I remember like, I would post something and I'd have like 3,000 likes, right? But it's like, what if 3,000 people didn't really read that? They just liked it because they saw I posted it, right? Like, I'm learning to be more concerned about impact than like image aesthetics, what is going on? It's like, is what I'm doing impactful?And if you want your podcast to be impactful. And you take that purposeful pause that I call—call it in the book, right? Like you come back stronger, better, being able to engage with your guests in a different way in those pauses where we find moments to like, be innovative and creative. You know what I mean? Like, there's all sorts of things that happen in those moments of pause that we, it just, we can't get that type of clarity when we're constantly going and doing. You know, and yeah, you have to let go. And I'm proud of you. Take the pause, right? Like, it's like, oh my gosh. Again, we're so hard on ourselves. Like, this idea that my God, I have to post the episode like every week or what? It's just, it's so much.Maureen: Have to keep up the momentum, Christine.Christine: You have the momentum. You have—Maureen: No—I'm kidding.Christine: Be high performing. Right. Like in all these things, like the reason the subtitle to Less is Liberation is “finding freedom from a life of overwhelm” is because those are the things that overwhelm us. And that's a choice that you can make to—Not have that overwhelm. And I want people to become more aware of and empowered by the fact that they get to make choices in their lives.And those choices are what determine our overconsumption, our overwhelm, all of those things. And, um, the power of choice, man, when we tap into that, it's a game changer.Maureen: Yeah. And choice is scary because then it says, uh, I'm actually, this is a choice that I made. And if you judge me, you're judging the choice that I made. And I think that can be scary and make people not want to make choices.Christine: People pleasers I think are very concerned about what other people think and what are they going to say. So I lived in that space for so long and like you realize, I mean, the people and people, they're going to talk—No matter what. If you make a choice, if you don't make a choice, if you do nothing, someone is out there talking about me right now. I have no idea. I wish them well. You know what I mean? It's like, you have to let go. There's so many limiting beliefs around what other people think and allowing what we've convinced ourselves, we don't know if it's true or not, but what we've convinced ourselves is true, allowing that to dictate our lives and our choices. Self-mastery.Maureen: So my typical end of interview question is your advice that you would give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that is intuitive and authentic to them. I feel like this whole conversation has been an answer to that. Not about clothes, but about the experience. So any final thoughts before we talk about Less Liberation?Christine: I mean, I think the only thing I would say is, um, you know, you already know what you naturally gravitate towards. Allow yourself to think about why is that the outfit that if it's last minute, and I know that like, this will not fail me. What is it about that outfit that makes you feel that way? Is it the color? Is it the fit? Is it the fabric? Like, what is it about that? That makes you feel like, excuse me, that makes you feel like, you know, out of everything in my closet, I'm just going to put this on because I know it's going to work for me. And there is part of your intuitive style. Maureen: So we are fully in pre-order season for your book. And so can you please tell the listeners why pre-ordering Less is Liberation is very important for you and any author that you want to support in case people don't know.Christine: Yes! Pre-orders are so helpful to authors. It really helps the publisher know that people are interested in the book, it helps us get into brick and mortar stores, online retailers, and also when, um, especially like, let's say like a certain city or a certain area when they are heavily, uh, like, wow, there's a lot of people in, I don't know, Kansas City, you know, who've pre-ordered Less is Liberation and saying, oh, we should have her do, uh, we should make that a stop on her book tour. Right? So it really is helpful to both the authors and the readers, but I think more importantly, those early sales numbers are such good indicators for the author and the publisher of interest in the book, where we should go on book tour. Um, and yeah, I mean, it feels good to know that someone is pre-ordering my book. And, uh, I really poured my heart and soul into Less Liberation and I think it's very much like the Afro Minimalist guide in the sense that, you know, that book came out during the pandemic. Everyone was home with their stuff. And even though I didn't plan that with the Afro Minimalist and I definitely didn't plan, uh, Less Liberation, I didn't know that we would be in this moment of collective overwhelm right now, but I do think it is a book that is divinely—excuse me—but it's divinely timed that will really help people through, help them navigate the season that we're in. Yeah.Maureen: I will be pre-ordering Less is Liberation. It's coming out right after my birthday, so birthday present to—Me. Um, but come to San Francisco on your book tour and I'll show up.Christine: Yay!Maureen: Thank you so much. I mean, I, this, this whole conversation is incredible. I'm growing and your work helps me and so many other people grow and then share similar ideas around the choices that we actually have in our lives. So just thank you for everything.Christine: Thank you and thank you for having me on the podcast and enjoy your break!Maureen: Thank you. I plan to, I plan to. Thank you—Christine: Good.Maureen: Thanks so much.Christine: You're welcome. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

You’re reading the second-to-last episode of Season One of Intuitive Style. While we’re on break for summer, you can catch up with all of the incredible previous guest episodes here. Next week, we be our season finale with mindful living extraordinaire Christine Platt. Stay tuned!I’m delighted to share this week’s episode with much-awaited guest, Jennifer Cook of mom friend! We discuss everything from how Jennifer’s professional experience in fashion impacts her personal style to what she most enjoys writing for Substack! Enjoy.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.Maureen: You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Jennifer Cook from mom friend. Jennifer is a Brooklynite with a job in fashion. Chic. You know her from her weekly recaps covering everything from what's happening in politics to what the moms are wearing at Space Club. Jennifer, welcome to the show.Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice to meet you.Maureen: Likewise, I've been reading mom friend for a little while. I'm not even a mom and what you're writing is still really interesting from the fashion insider perspective—just like life in Brooklyn. I like catching up with what Mom Friend's up to.I took a look at your about page and it really struck me. You said, “when something becomes your job and pays your rent, it's easy to become numb to it. This page has helped relight my curiosity and interest around the industry as a whole, and I love being able to write about it and be in it at the same time.” I don't work in fashion even a little bit, so I would just love to hear a little bit more about your day job in fashion and how writing in your free time feels different.Jennifer: Yeah, I have been working in the fashion industry on the business side for about thirteen years now. I started on the retail side when I was like fifteen, so I've always been around retail and fashion. It's just kind of ingrained in my bones and who I am. But that said, when you work in something, it becomes a little monotonous. Or when it becomes your paycheck and your livelihood, it can kind of lose some of the luster.Part of the reason I got into fashion was because I loved it. I loved the clothes. I loved retail. I loved the energy it brought. I loved the people, the artistry, the creativeness of it. Being on the business side for the last decade plus, it lost a little bit of its luster. So in writing the Substack and developing mom friend, it's been so fun to kind of find that playfulness again where it's not so dependent on—my livelihood is not dependent on it. I can play with it, I can have fun, I can explore, I can learn, I can engage with it in a way that's a little bit different from my nine to five.In the last year or so, I started a new job. I'm a buyer now at a store in Soho in New York City, and I like to laugh about it and say that I just shop with someone else's money for a living, which is not super far off from the truth. But it still has that expectation that you're doing it for someone else—for a store with a different personality, a different customer, a different viewpoint. So on the Substack, it's fun for me to just do things for me. It's what I like. It's what I'm finding. It's what I'm resonating with as opposed to what I'm getting paid to find for someone else. That part has been a lot of fun.Maureen: That's a really clear and powerful distinction. When you're shopping for the retailer, it's not necessarily about your taste. It's also about what is going to sell, right? Just based off of some things that I've read from you. Is that kind of a fair shake?Jennifer: Absolutely. There's so much data these days behind my job. So it is kind of a gut feeling you have. It's a taste level. It's knowing your customer. But it's also looking at metrics like selling and developing merchandising plans based on how many iterations of a short sleeve you might need. It's looking at profit margins. These days, where it's being made and where it's shipping from is all the more important. So there's so many factors that come into how I'm buying for the store versus how I look at fashion and style just for myself.I've been lucky in this role. I've been able to bring a lot of my own personal taste and style and preferences into it. So I feel very fortunate that that's been afforded to me. But at the same time, there's so many other things that go into that job that are based on data and numbers and metrics and getting to know a different customer than I am.Our store is in Soho, New York. I live in Brooklyn. For those not in New York, those two things are worlds away from one another. The style that you see in Brooklyn and the style of people roaming around Soho—it's vastly different, even being just a few miles apart. So it's really interesting to have to kind of capture that information, process it, and then feed it back in a different way through the store and through my own style.Maureen: Totally cool if this is too much information from your company perspective, but what is your customer base like then for the brand?Jennifer: We started many years ago as a menswear brand. So our core customer is a guy. I kind of call him the LinkedIn bro of New York. You know the type—he's a corporate bro, he likes nice things, he's an aspirational customer. He's not totally buying luxury, but he's also not shopping at Zara. He wants things that feel good, that look good, that are basic and easy to wear and don't take a lot of styling. That's always been our core customer.In the last year, we've transitioned into becoming more of a multi-brand concept store. So we now have women's apparel, home goods, accessories, footwear. It's been a lesson in trying to figure out who that new customer is and how we get new people in the door.Being where we are in Soho, it is also very tourist-driven. It's striking that right balance between basics, vacation clothes, and fun grab-and-go items for people to remember their trip by. It really spans a wide range of customers. But it's also ever-changing. Especially in New York City—it's such a transient city. People are coming, they're going, they're changing jobs, they're having families, they're moving to Brooklyn. There's always change in who our people are. It's been fun over the last year to try and identify that and not just give them what they want, but also try and tell them what we think they should want. It's striking that balance between things we know they'll love and things we think they should be following. It's a hard balance to strike, but it's also really fun.Maureen: And I know that this line of questioning could seem tangential to your personal style. But for me, it helps me really understand where you're coming from and how you could get to that place where fashion is a little bit less fun. Everything you're describing sounds very cool and also very corporate. There's a connection element to knowing what your customer likes, but also very business-oriented. Going back to what originally drew you to fashion being the actual clothes and the experience of clothing—those feel worlds apart. What do you think your day job in fashion is? What is the impact of that on how you personally dress, if anything?Jennifer: It's a huge impact. Less so in my current job, but previously—before becoming a buyer—I was working on the wholesale side of the business where I was representing individual brands. Every time I would represent a brand, I would kind of have to dress in that style. I would dress in their clothes pretty much head to toe. Part of that was due to the fact that I usually had a nice allowance or got a steep discount, so it made it easier to dress like that. One of the perks of the job for sure.But part of that was also—you feel like a representative of that brand. I always felt like I needed to dress the part in order to sell it better and do my job better. Now that I'm on the buying side, I have a wider breadth of options to choose from, which is great. But on the other hand, there's so much out there that I almost feel too inundated with products sometimes. I'm looking at all these amazing products from hundreds of brands and it can be decision fatigue and information overload. It's been a lesson in trying to pare back my own style and see what resonates with me. What do I actually feel good in? What do I want to wear that fits my life?I'm looking at all these amazing products from hundreds of brands and it can be decision fatigue and information overload. It's been a lesson in trying to pare back my own style and see what resonates with me. What do I actually feel good in? What do I want to wear that fits my life?Part of my Substack is talking about fashion and how it relates to the life I actually live. I'm a newish mom. I have a toddler. I live in Brooklyn. I'm on my feet all the time. I'm always running around. I'm also a yoga teacher. I'm writing. All of these things play into the way I want to dress. And that's not really what I'm selling in my store necessarily. I need my clothes to work for me. I need them to be washable and easy to wear. I need sneakers. I need really basic things. I live in Brooklyn. I have a small closet. I don't have space. How can I get the most out of my clothes?Sometimes I feel lucky to be able to buy things for the store that I can't buy for myself because they don't fit my lifestyle. It's still a nice way to work with younger brands and designers, get them out there, without having to take on—not that it's a burden—but that burden myself of owning their product. It all plays together for sure.On the other hand, I'm out in the market all the time and sometimes I see amazing pieces that I’m like, I don’t care if I’ll ever get use out of this. I have to have it. I have to support this person. I need to have this brand in my closet. You just fall in love with things.That also said, if anyone’s worked in retail, you probably have experienced wanting something when it first hits the floor and three weeks later, absolutely not wanting to look at it ever again. So there are pieces I fall in love with that after three weeks I’m like, you know what—never mind. I actually don’t need this.So it all plays together. It’s been a lot more fun in this new role having exposure to multiple brands and not feeling so set on dressing as one brand or one style. That’s been a lot of fun to play with. But it’s also lined up with having a kid, which just totally flipped my wardrobe on its head.Maureen: Yeah. Well, we can talk a little bit more about that. And I also want to see what you think of this idea. So personally, I always have resonated more with what the designers are wearing than the actual clothes that go down the runway. And just based on, you know, like the chic black crew neck that you're wearing today and just other things that you share. And even just the lifestyle that you're describing that is more... like, our clothes need to be more utilitarian than always expressive and I feel like, I'm just curious, do you resonate with the designer style? Is that something, do you ever think about that?Jennifer: Always, always resonate with the designer style more than the clothes that go down the runway. These designers work hard. They're crazy busy. The women are, tend to be the ones that I follow most closely and most of them are moms. They have a lot of things going on. It's like me where you need to pare down your style and really keep it simple. I think there is something to be said about uniform dressing or capsule dressing or however you want to call it. That keeps having these small moments in the conversation and there is something to be said about that. It makes the getting dressed part of your life a little bit simpler so that you can focus on the work of creativity. And I think that is why designers tend to have a little bit, in my opinion, more of an interesting style—something that I resonate with a little bit more. Not that I don't love looking at the runway clothes.Always, always resonate with the designer style more than the clothes that go down the runway. These designers work hard. They're crazy busy. The women are, tend to be the ones that I follow most closely and most of them are moms. They have a lot of things going on. It's like me where you need to pare down your style and really keep it simple. Maureen: Oh, yeah.Jennifer: I think they're beautiful and they can be super creative and amazing, and the construction on some of them is just incredible. But at the end of the day, no one's wearing that, right? It's a marketing tool. These runway shows are marketing tools. And working on the wholesale side of the business, I know that most of what goes down the runway doesn't make it into stores. There's a whole other collection that these designers design that are made for retailers, that are made for people to actually buy. And that's not what you see on the runways. And so there's this whole other kind of underbelly of the industry that I feel closer with. And that includes dressing like the designers. They also just—they're amazing. They know what they're doing. They know how to dress their body. They know about proportions. It's so fun to watch them come out at the end because I'm like, okay, that's what I want to wear.Maureen: Yeah, same, same. Sometimes I feel like getting dressed super expressively can be a distraction from life. And so I feel like, yeah, if you imagined, like, Pier Paolo wearing super... what if he wore gowns or something in his day-to-day life? Would we take him as seriously? Because if you think about all the hours of glam or whatever he'd need to do to get to that place, wouldn't that take away from the time that he would need to be creative or to actually work on the designs? You know what I mean?Jennifer: Yeah, that and we live in an attention economy. And so when your attention becomes on yourself, when you start to make yourself the brand, when you start to dress in a certain type of way or put yourself out there in a certain type of way, then you become what people pay attention to. And I think designers know—some of them at least—that the attention needs to be on the clothes. It needs to be on the product, not themselves. Granted, it's hard to have a successful brand these days without a face behind it. So it's striking the right balance between those two things.But, you know, being in New York City too, it's average people. I take the subway multiple times a day and you can tell the people who are on the subway that are going somewhere where their job is their clothes or their job is to show off or they're trying to get attention or whatever it may be versus the people that are there on their way to the office. They have stuff to do. There is this dichotomy between people just walking around the city streets—the ones that want to be seen and that show off, and the ones that are there to work. And there's nothing wrong with either of those things.Maureen: Total, yeah.Jennifer: It's just what you think about when you get on in the morning. And I am not one of those people where I want to be seen. I don't. I don't want any attention. I want to just keep moving on with my day. And so I definitely dress for that. I want to blend in. But I also really appreciate the people that don't. I think it's so fun. I mean, the city streets are just a constant source of inspiration. So it's fun to walk around and observe that. But I do think we live in a society that feeds off of attention these days, and so it's just what kind of attention you want to bring to yourself. And our clothes speak volumes.Maureen: Thanks for going there with me. And of course, I would never try to get you to say anything bad about dressing more expressively, right? I think everyone has—there’s a space for every kind of dressing.Jennifer: Yeah.Maureen: And the only reason I was asking is just I felt like that's something that resonated with me about your style, is that I also kind of am personally more comfortable being a little bit more reserved with my style.Jennifer: Thank you.Maureen: And I think when you focus a lot of your energy in the fashion space on what’s going down the runway and things like that—certainly I can just say for myself—I felt a lot of pressure to be that flamingo, to be the peacock and do the most, and that I wasn't stylish if I wasn't doing the most. And so that's why paying attention to what the designers are wearing and even just, you know, what you're putting out there helps me be like, “Oh, I can be a fashionable person or stylish person and also wear things that are more subdued.” So that's really, I think it's nice to make space for all the different types of dressing.Jennifer: Absolutely. And I used to be that person too. I mean, when I was younger, dressed to the nines, I was always in heels and tight dresses. And I think as my life has progressed and my day-to-day has changed and my situation has evolved, those things have changed as well. And so I think everything has a season and a place and time. Ultimately, style just comes down to feeling good in what you're wearing. And if that is a basic black sweater and jeans—great. If that's a mini skirt and bra and high heels—great. If you're happy, I'm happy. That’s what matters.Maureen: I completely agree. I have one more mom friend question before we get into your personal style.Jennifer: Totally.Maureen: I really appreciate that your posts are labeled with the number at the start because it helps me remember when I'm reading that you have a large archive of posts. You were writing for a little while before I found you, and so I can go back and read your past work. With that said, are there any memorable favorites or underrated posts that you've written and are proud of? I'd love to know about them.Jennifer: You know, it's not that there is a specific post necessarily. I think a couple of things. First, my writing has evolved. I've been doing this for about a year now, and what it started as to what it is now is totally different. If you go all the way back to the beginning, it's just a different beast. It was more me trying to find my way as a new mom, so a lot of it was more personal essay-centric or parenting products or conversations around that. And as I've developed it and gotten used to writing, and as I've kind of grown with it, it's morphed into a lot of different things—more focused on just me and my personal style as well as politics. There's still some parenting and motherhood content, but it's a little more well-rounded.There are some great pieces that I wrote that were more personal essays a year ago when I was just starting out and I had like two followers, and I felt more comfortable just kind of putting it all out there on the internet. But on the other hand, part of the reason it's changed is because I realized what was gaining more traction and what people wanted to read. And as much as my goal is not to just pander to my audience, I do also want to know what they're interested in. I feel like I have a very specific viewpoint—working in fashion, being in New York City, being a mom—I think those are things that people are curious about. As people started to express more about what they wanted to hear and read, I started catering to that a bit.[Ed note: issue #60, a week in Jennifer Cook’s life in Brooklyn, is the first one of hers I read, and I was immediately hooked.]So it's developed along with my audience. I don't necessarily think there's anything super underrated that I want people to go back and revisit. It's more just giving ourselves permission to evolve as we move, as we wish. Some of that is audience-directed. I also found that I didn’t want to write about fashion—I really didn’t—because I worked in it. But as I started doing it, I realized I actually enjoyed writing about it. This is what I do. This is what I love. I've been doing this for a really long time. So of course I like it. I realized I shouldn't hold myself back because I originally started with the plan not to talk about it.I also realized that I have no idea what I’m doing when it comes to being a mom. I got a few posts out about parenting and motherhood and then I was like, okay, that’s it—that’s the end of my knowledge. I can’t keep going with this. I have to expand it, because otherwise it's like the blind leading the blind. I have no idea what I’m doing. And I think that’s part of the fun—it’s an exploration of how I can be a mom in this world, in community with other people, while also acknowledging that there are so many other aspects to us as individuals. "Mom" is part of it, and as I continue to write, I realized that all of these other parts of me—I wanted to explore and share those too.I think it's interesting to see what people gravitate towards. My Substack has become very shopping-centric, and that’s what people really like to read. It definitely gets the most engagement. What I like to write and what I’m most proud of tend to be the least engaged-with posts—the more personal things, the more political things. That’s why I started doing the weekly recaps on Thursdays, because it allowed me to explore the things that I’m more excited about. Not that I’m not excited about shopping and such, but I feel like I am very multifaceted and I like to put all of that out there in one place. And those are so fun for me to write, even though they’re not nearly as engaged with.Maureen: As another creator, I really appreciate you sharing all that detail about what people are reading, because I've also experienced the same thing. The more specific I am about clothing, the more people want to engage with it. And when I try to do things that are a little more—what's the word—philosophical or esoteric or thoughtful, then I'm writing for the writers.Jennifer: Yeah.Maureen: And that's totally fine, but I think sometimes there can be this misnomer, like if you write what's authentic and organic to you, then that’s going to be the most popular stuff. And it's like—well, sometimes not. And then sometimes people just want a roundup of all the cute dresses that you’re buying for summer. And that’s totally fine.Jennifer: And that’s kind of the content I like to consume too, because the world is heavy right now. Reading personal essay after personal essay can also be heavy. Sometimes we need a break and just want to look at pretty things. There’s nothing wrong with that. For me, I want that, and I also want to be thoughtful and put things out there. And if people read it—great. If they don’t—fine. It’s whatever.Maureen: Everything that you described is a lovely analogy for the idea of intuitive style, which is basically: we're trying stuff out, we're seeing what feels good to wear, what feels good to write, what people are interested in reading. It’s all kind of a micro-experiment, one post at a time. Let’s talk a little bit about your personal style. How do you decide what to buy and wear, especially given that, as you said, you are so inundated with great options? How do you pick?Jennifer: It’s hard. There’s so much good stuff out there—it’s so hard. For me, the biggest things are that my body has changed a lot in the last couple of years—being pregnant, giving birth, and then everything after that. So that’s been a huge development in my personal style lately. It’s a major part of it.I am a notorious outfit repeater. I tend to wear a variation of the same thing every day, mostly for ease. I am very busy. I’m very tired. And to be able to just throw on a combination of the same thing makes my life a thousand times easier. So even though everyone says don’t buy duplicates of the same thing in different colors—I definitely do. If I find something that fits, that I love, that I wear a lot, and that’s in my budget—I'm buying it.Budget is a major factor for me. Fashion pays notoriously low. I get access to a lot of great discounts, which is amazing, but I am very conscientious about what I spend on clothes. I have a lot of expenses in my life. New York is an expensive city. Unfortunately for me, clothes kind of fall off when it comes to spending. I also have enough. So when I’m trying to figure out what to buy, it’s mostly about filling in holes in my wardrobe.Lately, that’s been pants and jeans, because my body has changed and a lot of things I had pre-baby don’t fit anymore. So my priority has been making sure I have bottoms that fit and feel good. Right now I’m in the market for the perfect gray sweater, and I’m not going to stop until I find one that’s in my budget, fits really well, and is the perfect color. I’m comfortable waiting until I find that one that really works.There are so many factors at play in deciding what to buy. I also have a few go-to brands that I’m consistent with—I know they fit well and I can buy them easily. I stock up on things like white tees and similar staples. But every day at work, I get line sheets from apparel brands and I’m like, “Damn, I want all of this. How do I choose?”More recently, with everything going on in the world, I’ve tried to make a point of buying from women-owned brands and those that focus more on slow production and ethical practices. I’m trying to be more conscientious about that. Don’t get me wrong—my daughter pretty much exclusively wears H&M and this sweater is from Gap. So I’ve definitely got mass market in the mix. But when I’m thinking about a bigger purchase or spending more money, I want it to be more meaningful.As I’ve gotten older and had a little more room to play in terms of budget, that’s been huge. I’m also a big Poshmarker. I love secondhand shopping on Poshmark. If I find something I love but don’t want to pay full price or am unsure about the fit or how often I’ll wear it, that’s a great resource too.Maureen: Yeah, I feel like Poshmark is great, especially if you use it to buy something you already know you like and just want another one of. Do you ever use it that way?Jennifer: All the time. Yeah, that's great.Maureen: It's pretty no regrets if you're like, “I already have it and want to re-purchase secondhand.” Cool. It sounds like a heightened version of what a lot of us are feeling, which is: How do you pick? How do you pick? How do you pick? And then there are so many people doing the valiant work of trying to de-influence, and sometimes it turns into a very loud voice saying we don't need things—when maybe we actually do have gaps in our wardrobe. I find that can be kind of distracting for me personally. I appreciate that your writing doesn’t skew that way. I think you leave room for all the different ways someone might shop, and I just appreciate that.Jennifer: Oh, good. I'm so glad. I mean, listen, we all need less stuff. I think we generally consume too much. But at the end of the day, we want to feel good, we want to look good, we want to be comfortable, and that sometimes requires shopping and buying. Whatever your budget or price range may be, there's something for you. I never want people to feel bad about spending money to make themselves feel good—especially when things are not so amazing right now. Clothes bring me joy, and retail therapy is a real thing. I don't think we should be running away from that. I want us to be conscientious about what we're consuming. We could all take a closer look at our spending habits and our shopping habits. If we're just throwing stuff away or buying things we don't need just to feel that endorphin rush, then yeah, we need to pay attention to that. It’s important, because there are serious problems with the way Americans—and not just Americans—consume. But at the end of the day, if you want the damn jeans, buy the damn jeans. Are you going to feel good? Are they going to make you happy? Are you going to wear them? Then hell yeah. Why not?I tried really hard to do a no-buy 2025, and that ship sailed within like three weeks. But I respect people who do that too because we need all voices, all ends of the spectrum. I'm also not someone who can go out and shop luxury fashion all the time, so I'm very discerning about what I buy, how much I spend, and where I buy it from. It’s all valid. It’s all relevant.Especially working my day job too. I see people come in who are just so excited to shop, to be in person, to try clothes on—and I want to keep giving that to people. There’s something really valid about buying things and wearing things that make us feel good.Maureen: Yeah, that word "discernment" always comes to my mind. What is discernment to you? What does that entail? What does it feel like?Jennifer: I hate the expression "if it’s not a hell yes, it’s a hell no," but I do think there’s something to it. I feel strongly about sleeping on things, giving them a minute, feeling good about them. Trying it on. Trying it on again. Trying it on with different outfits. Thinking about what you actually need. And also—falling in love with stuff. It can be anything. Like my black boyfriend sweater from the Gap. I fell in love instantly and was like, “Hell yes, I need this in my closet,” even though I already have multiple black sweaters.That’s discernment too. As is buying a jacket, putting it away, and three weeks later being like, “You know what? I don’t need this. No thank you.” It can take lots of different forms. The more we know about where our clothes come from—where they’re made, who’s making them, what purpose they serve, how they fit, what materials work with our bodies and our lifestyles—the more we can feel good in what we wear and develop a personal style that actually works for us, whatever that means.Maureen: Talking about the momming of it all—are there any specific ways your style has changed since becoming a parent?Jennifer: Yes, definitely. I'm very attuned to fabrications and materials these days because everything needs to be washable. If I can't throw it in our combo washer-dryer, it's never going to work for me. That’s a huge part of it. Fit has been a constant battle over the last couple of years. I think a lot of women—just from life, not even necessarily parenthood—experience changes in their body, lifestyle, how they look and feel, and what they weigh. That definitely rings true when you have a kid.When I was pregnant, I wore the same black dress every single day because I was pregnant in the middle of summer in New York City. It was like 100 degrees all the time. Nothing felt good. I felt miserable. I had no sense of style—literally none. I was like, black dress, Birkenstocks, call it a day. So I was excited to get back into feeling like myself again after the baby came, but when I went to put on all of my clothes, nothing felt good. It was a lesson in: okay, what do I actually want now?Two years later, I’m still figuring it out. There are things I would’ve loved in a past life that I put on now and they just don’t work. I’ve been in a huge closet purge lately. I’ve been holding on to things hoping they’ll feel like me again—and they just don’t. Objectively, my closet is still jeans, sweaters, button-downs, and t-shirts—nothing crazy—but the way they fit is different. I’m into more oversized things now. My body shape has changed. I’m playing with proportions differently.We all go through that at different times. I’ve struggled with it because I tell myself I don’t need a whole new wardrobe, I have all these beautiful clothes, so why am I spending more? But at the end of the day, I have stuff I haven’t reached for in two years. It doesn’t feel like me anymore. We need to give ourselves permission to lean into our changing bodies, personalities, lifestyles, and priorities. If you see me in New York, I’m probably wearing the same five things every day. One day I’ll get more playful again. But for now, it’s practicality all the way.In my past life, I used to work in luxury fashion and wear five-inch stilettos every day. That is just not it for me anymore. It’s rare to find me in anything other than sneakers.Maureen: Real question: did you wear stilettos on the subway, or was it a change-when-you-get-there kind of thing?Jennifer: When I was much younger, when I first started in the industry, I wore them on the subway all the time. Yeah. I was that girl.Maureen: I love that for you. I just can't even imagine—that feels like a lifetime ago, when everyone was wearing high heels all the time. I remember in college, I had to wear a shoe with a heel just to go to class. What?Jennifer: A whole different world. I'm so grateful the culture has changed. I'm grateful I work in an office where it's casual—I can wear jeans and sneakers and no one bats an eye. For that, I’m super happy. We’ve become a lot more casual. COVID obviously had something to do with it, so I guess we can put that one in the win column.I wore heeled boots the other day for a work event. I felt great. Loved them. Ended up walking almost 12,000 steps and realized—I haven’t done this since I was 22. And I remembered why the next day. So I’m like, okay, sneakers it is for the next three weeks. But it’s also fun to get dressed up sometimes. Don’t get me wrong—I love putting on fancy shoes and a dress on occasion and busting out of my denim every now and then.Maureen: My heeled boots have insoles.Jennifer: Yes, wise girl. That's so wise. I should have done that.Maureen: I have this theory and I want to hear your thoughts on it. So again, not a parent, but I follow a lot of moms on here. One thing I think we don't always consider is the passage of time between getting pregnant and then having the child—or however someone becomes a parent. There's a whole period of time where getting dressed becomes more complicated or less of a priority. And in that time, culture and fashion and everything else continues to move forward. So my theory is that when people start to feel more like themselves again after that initial period—which is not to say postpartum doesn’t last longer; I believe it lasts seven years or more—it’s like the fashion world has moved on. And when they try to go back to their old clothes, it’s not just their body that’s changed. Culture has, too. What do you think? Do I sound crazy?Jennifer: You don’t sound crazy. It’s totally true. For those nine months or so, you kind of sit out all of the trends or the usual wardrobe turnover that happens in a year. You're not there for it. You're not shifting with a new job or season or cultural moment. Then when you come back to it, you’re like, “Wait, this feels dated,” even though it’s only been nine or ten months—which can feel like forever.It’s strange because for me, my closet wasn’t super trendy to begin with. That was never my vibe. But even then, I went back to this pink striped button-down I bought before the baby, and it just didn’t feel like me anymore. There was nothing trendy about it—it’s just a classic oversized poplin shirt—but I couldn’t bring myself to wear it or get rid of it. It’s such a period of transformation, and everything else continues moving forward without you. I don’t think I realized how big of a shift it would be. I was that naive pre-baby person who said, “I’m never going to change once the baby comes. I’ll still be my old self.” But we’re all that mom. You can’t go through something so life-altering and not change, and that includes what you wear and what you feel good in.Maureen: I'd like to hear more about what it feels like in your body when you put on clothes. I'm trying to make tangible something that can feel hard to explain, which is that feeling of alignment or misalignment in our clothes. Could you talk about that, maybe using the Gap sweater as an example? What does it feel like in your body to know that something is right—even when your brain says, “You already own black sweaters”?Jennifer: I actually think that feeling stems a lot from not looking in a mirror. When I first put it on, I looked down, moved around in it, adjusted the sleeves and collar, and thought, “This is good,” even before looking in the mirror. If the sleeves hit just right, the hem is loose enough, the material feels good on my skin—if all those boxes are checked—then I look in the mirror and it’s a bonus that it looks cute.I actually think that feeling stems a lot from not looking in a mirror. When I first put it on, I looked down, moved around in it, adjusted the sleeves and collar, and thought, “This is good,” even before looking in the mirror. If the sleeves hit just right, the hem is loose enough, the material feels good on my skin—if all those boxes are checked—then I look in the mirror and it’s a bonus that it looks cute.For me, that feeling is even more relevant with jeans. If they don’t immediately feel good at the waist or around my thighs, or if the length is off—I'm 5'7", so I often have fit issues—then even if they look great in the mirror, it's still a no. Materials are huge for me too. I spent years wearing 100% wool sweaters that were so itchy and uncomfortable because they were cool and everyone wore them. But now I’m like, never again. Who was that for? It certainly wasn’t for me. So the test is always: how do I feel before I even look in the mirror?Maureen: Great examples. Thank you. Thanks for going there with me. I know it can feel vulnerable to talk about how clothes feel in our bodies, especially since that’s not how we’re used to hearing people talk about fashion.Jennifer: Anytime.Maureen: We’re coming to the end. I'd love to finish up with what’s exciting you in fashion right now.Jennifer: I think the most exciting thing right now is that anything goes. There’s no one way to dress, shop, look good, or feel good. That’s really exciting to me. I’m a kid of the ’90s, when there was basically one way to dress, so it’s thrilling that we’ve moved beyond that.Personally, I love that wide-leg jeans, oversized tops, and sneakers are in. That’s what I want to wear all the time. And now there are so many ways to wear those things without looking frumpy or undone. More broadly, I think it's exciting that we’re talking more about what dressing means, how clothes impact our lives, and what fashion and style actually are. Working in fashion professionally, it's been amazing to see these conversations spill out into non-industry spaces.Maureen: Yes, and going full circle back to your role as a buyer—introducing customers to things they didn’t know they wanted—I think that happened for a lot of people with oversized fits and wide-leg pants. At first, we were like, “Why would I do that? I’ve spent my whole life trying to make my body look smaller.” But then we tried it and realized, “Oh my god, I’m so comfortable.” That’s why I’m pro-trends to some degree. They introduce us to things we didn’t know we wanted but that improve our lives.Jennifer: Totally.Maureen: I appreciate your example of being excited about what we're wearing now and how many options we have. I hope it continues to be that way.Jennifer: Yeah, I agree.Maureen: Thank you so much. This was exactly as insightful and enjoyable as I hoped it would be, which is always lovely. Where can listeners find you?Jennifer: I’m on Substack—my newsletter is called mom friend. You can also find me on Instagram at @jennifersandra. That’s it. I'm not on TikTok, not doing that whole game. So find me there—I’d love to connect.Maureen: I’ll include links in the show notes.Jennifer: Amazing.Maureen: Thank you again. This was a delight.Jennifer: Thanks, Maureen. So good to meet you finally.Maureen: Likewise.Jennifer: Take care.OutroThank you to our guest, Jennifer Cook, for joining us today.Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Heads up! There’s no episode next week while I’m away on vacation, but we’ll be back on Friday, May 23 with the penultimate episode of the season, featuring Substack favorite Jennifer Cook of mom friend.We’ll wrap up Season One on Friday May 30 with the incredible Christine Platt. You might know her from Instagram or one of her many books, The Afrominimalist’s Guide to Living With Less. I can’t wait to share these final episodes with you! This week’s guest is Calley Dawson, the founder and CEO of circular fashion company, FXRY. We chat about her long tenure in fashion, how her approach to style has changed, and her take on what sustainable fashion even is. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Calley Dawson, creator of the circular fashion startup FXRY. She's a fashion industry veteran who turned her focus to reducing fashion waste by scaling tailoring and mending services. Basically, she's super amazing. Calley, welcome to the show.Calley: Thanks, Maureen. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.Maureen: Yeah, it's so nice to get to sit down and talk a little bit more. I know we talked a bit a couple weeks ago, which is always fun. I had a look at your FXRY website and I loved your quote about your experience in the fashion industry and how you realized that was contributing to the landfill—and now you're looking to reverse that. Just to personalize that moment even further, can you share what got you on the path of advocating for circularity?Calley: Sure. I've worked in the fashion industry for twenty-five years at all kinds of different big brands around the United States. It was really exciting when I was younger. I really enjoyed the fun of fashion, and even when fast fashion started, it was really fun to be a part of it. I don't know if I was young or not aware—whatever it was, I just had no idea that it was so bad for the planet. But it was a really fun space to be in because it was exploding. For you, Maureen, or anyone listening, it's really fun to work at a company and in a space that's doing well. It's not very fun to work somewhere that's not doing so well. It just doesn't feel good.The longer I went on working at these different companies and as I've gotten older and matured, I started to realize that the values I have for myself in my own personal life—I want them to align with my work. I don't even know if I knew what my values were when I was in my early twenties. When I really started this journey of doing fashion design, over the years I've come to realize that doing good by the planet and, honestly, just doing good is what feels best for me. I want to always be doing what is the better thing of two options. Nothing's perfect—everything we create has its flip side—but I just want to be marching towards what feels good.So for me, when I left the last company I was at and thought about what I wanted to do next, no company really excited me in fashion and apparel. I really didn’t want to lose the network and everything I had built up in my career. If I had switched into a different category—if I wanted to go do tech—I’d have to learn something fully new. I really wanted to utilize my skill sets and the network I’d built up.It was just really exciting to realize that I could align my values by doing something that was truly sustainable and not greenwashing. That was the other thing that was really hard to watch. I sat in these design director positions and had to advocate for my company while also helping people more junior on my team understand how this isn’t greenwashing. And in a lot of cases, accepting that that’s what we were doing, because most brands are overproducing—especially the big ones.Maureen: Yeah, and that’s really interesting what you said about going where feels right because this idea of intuitive style is, of course, about what we wear and choosing clothes that feel good. But there’s also an aspect of paying attention to what feels good in every aspect of our lives. I really appreciate what you're sharing about what felt right for you with your career.I'd love to hear a little bit more too. I like to make this comparison that intuition isn’t negating experience, nor is it negating expertise. So I'd love to hear a little bit more from your perspective about how your expertise in fashion led you to figuring out what felt right—versus just a gut feeling. You talked about not knowing your values earlier on. How did you develop that sense of your values and what you wanted to do at work?Calley: To be really honest, I think one of the biggest things for me is I'm sober. I live in a community of sober people where one of our tenets is to just do good and to make amends for bad things we've done in the past, or things that weren’t appropriate. That has really guided my life.When I was younger and newly sober, I didn’t know how to talk about that. I hid it a little bit. As I’ve gotten older and more comfortable in my own skin, I’m the first person to shout it from the rooftops. This is a part of my life and a big part of who I am. That’s really allowed me to set forth who I am and bring it into my career. I’ll be one of the first people at a company party to tell people I don’t drink. I’m sober. I’m comfortable with that.Allowing those parts of my personal life to be in my career and to lead with the values I’ve developed from there has been really important to me. I’d say it’s been an amazing experience learning how to manage people at work and realizing how different everyone is. Also realizing that the way things work is by collaboration and coming together. But the only way that you can come together—for example, to do circularity, because you can’t do it by yourself—it requires so many different people.It made me realize that we’re all so different, and the only way you get full collaboration is by fully understanding each other: why you’re different, how you’re different. So you have to be your authentic self, so that you can show other people who you are. It allows them to show you who they are, and then you can figure out the path forward. In this case, with sustainability and really figuring out how we can solve this massive overproduction problem. I know that’s a lot of things, but—Maureen: No, that's amazing. I appreciate everything you just shared. As an aside, I stopped drinking habitually, so I just want to connect with you in that way. I wouldn’t call myself sober in that sense, but I have made some very dramatic changes to my relationship with substances in general. It’s a learning process to figure out how to talk about it with people—if at all. Now that I’ve been doing this for a little while longer, I’m like, “Oh, everything about my life is different. I can tell people this because it’s important to who I am.”So I appreciate you sharing that because I think it’s really helpful for people to hear. Just not being ashamed, no matter how anyone might react. I’d love to talk a little more about FXRY and what you’re trying to do with it. I watched some of your social media videos and one thing that really stood out to me was a video showing a mending experience for a pair of stretchy jeans. That really connected with me as someone who wears stretchy pants.Stretchy jeans specifically—there are some very loud voices that are anti-stretch denim, and I think that’s totally great. If you’re a person who can wear non-stretch denim, please enjoy that. And for everyone else who does wear them, I just really appreciated seeing that there is a way to mend that kind of denim and keep it in use, rather than just saying, “Oh, we should never buy that kind of thing.” So I’d love to hear a bit more—not necessarily about that specifically—but about the FXRY approach and how that extends the life of clothing, perhaps compared to other circular fashion alternatives.Calley: Yeah, totally. You bring up a really great point that's talked about often in these circularity circles that I find myself in. There are definitely different camps, and then there are people who sort of reside in both. Some people are really strong that you should buy quality and therefore spend the money to maintain the quality. And some people are like, but I can't afford that. So I'm going to buy the cheaper option.I've definitely been in some conversations where someone said, we shouldn't fix the Zara stuff. And I’m like, no, we should fix everything—as long as we can fix it. If someone will wear it, we need to fix it. One of the biggest problems with waste is the plastic and the synthetics. Zara and other similar brands are the problem in the landfill. So however we can keep them going longer is important. At the same time, I would encourage people to think more about what they’re purchasing.From my personal experience, I used to be a crazy Zara shopper. I spent so much money there every month. I'd get this huge haul shipped to my house, go through it, send half of it back, and keep the rest. I’d wear it not for very long, and then I don’t even know what I did with it—probably donated it to Goodwill. Today, I haven’t bought anything from Zara for probably three years. One of my favorite shirts is from Zara, and I will wear that thing until it’s a rag.We definitely have people who come in or book online to repair fast fashion items, and they end up spending more than they originally paid. That works for them because they love the item. I would really encourage people to buy stuff they absolutely love. Don’t buy something just because it’s the trend of the moment. If you love the way it looks on you and how it makes you feel—which is what your podcast is all about—then it makes sense to buy it.We were actually contemplating whether to post that stretchy denim [video]. I was hesitant because it’s not this ethos of quality and vintage. But we were all like, we have to repair all clothing—including stretchy denim—so let’s show people that you can repair your stretch denim and keep it if you love it.Maureen: Yeah, I had that thought—like, I feel represented by this. In some spaces, I feel actively excluded from the conversation because of my preferences. That really connected with me, and I imagine a lot of other people would feel the same way. These are potential customers, which is good for your bottom line, but also when we think about what we’re actually striving to do when we talk about circular fashion, why wouldn’t we want to make the circle bigger, more welcoming, and more accepting? I appreciate that you're going in that direction. That really connected with me.So anything else about FXRY that you feel excited about? I didn’t give you a chance to say exactly what it is, so I’d love if you could talk a bit more specifically about the service.Calley: Yes, absolutely. FXRY is clothing alterations and repairs at your fingertips. You book online, and as long as you live in Seattle, White Center, or Bellevue, we come to your house, pick it up, take it to our studio, fix or alter it, and return it within two weeks.If that doesn’t work for you—if you need a fitting or an in-person experience—we do pop-ups all over Seattle. We partner with Filson, Eileen Fisher, Anthropologie, Jenni Kane, and a lot of local boutiques and vintage spots. I imagine in the next year we’ll cover every single spot in Seattle. We've really been popping up everywhere!We just moved into our own commercial space, and we’re figuring out how to bring that to life, likely through pop-up events for now. We’re also introducing mail-in and mail-out services in the next few months. Right now, if you want to use our services and live outside the greater Seattle area, you can email us, and we’ll get you access to our booking portal.We’re just trying to keep clothing in rotation and out of landfills. That’s really our marketing message. We differ from your local dry cleaner or tailor—not that they aren't doing great work—but they’re not creating a platform to advocate for this kind of change.That’s really important to me and to our business model. Clothing repair is crucial to keeping clothes in use, but so are alterations. If your clothing fits you really well, you're going to love it for longer. I can’t tell you how many jeans I’ve gotten rid of because the waist was too gaping. Now, I just have my team at FXRY nip in the waist, and I have jeans that fit perfectly.Maureen: That’s incredible. When I got married a couple years ago, I told my friend I bought a cheap jumpsuit for my reception. I thought maybe I should have gotten something nicer, but then I had it altered—and the alterations were expensive. I told my friend maybe I should’ve bought something more expensive. And she said, “Girl, you have a $400 jumpsuit now!” Because that’s how much the alterations cost. It went from just an okay garment to an incredible one, just by having it fitted to me. When I was done wearing it, I took it to Brides for a Cause in Seattle and donated it. The woman there said, “We’re always looking for jumpsuits. I’m so glad you brought this in.” It had a wonderful, beautiful life and now lives on in my photos. So yeah, the power of alterations is very real for me too.I know you're an entrepreneur and have professional fashion experience, but this podcast is also about personal style. Before we talk about how you decide what to buy and wear, I want to talk a little bit about your eyewear. It seems to be part of your signature style based on the cool glasses you’re wearing now.Calley: Yeah, it’s definitely a forced part of my style because I don’t have terrible eyesight now, but that hasn’t always been the case. I’m forty-five now, and when I turned forty, my eyesight started to go. I didn’t know this, but my doctor said eyesight decline around forty is especially common in women.So when my eyesight started to go, I thought, okay, if I have to wear glasses, they’re going to be cool. My first pair was really cool—kind of like this style—but in a plastic mauvey color. I got them from MyTheresa or SSENSE, one of those European designer platforms. They were Isabel Marant glasses. They were non-refundable, and I just hoped the optician could switch out the lenses, and luckily they could. Those were my first glasses, and they were just readers at first.Now, over the years, I can’t see up close or far away. I was just telling my husband the other night, “What if I’m going blind?” because it’s disappearing from both ends. It’s mostly reading though—I literally can’t see my phone without my glasses.Over five years, I’ve only had three pairs. The ones I’m wearing now aren’t the best prescription. My best ones are black, and they look amazing but box in my eyesight, which I don’t love. I don’t think contacts would work for me because I have a progressive prescription, and I don’t love the idea of putting something in my eye every day. So I’ve just embraced the glasses.It’s sweet of you to notice.Maureen: I think it's fun—like we all have different constraints on what we decide to buy or wear. If you have an opportunity to turn a constraint into something really fun and expressive, that's really nice, and I respect it. So, talking a bit more about your personal style, can you share how you decide what to buy or wear—or what not to?Calley: My style has certainly changed over the years—not only because of shifting trends, but also because I used to be a fast fashion addict. About five years ago, I started to shift, and then three years ago, I completely cut that off and stopped shopping that way.It might also be because I’m an entrepreneur now, and money is different when you’re making it for yourself instead of getting a paycheck. Today, I really focus on what I love—what makes me excited. If I see something in a store and I want to wear it out immediately, I know I need it. That doesn’t happen often, and I think it’s because I’ve collected items I truly love.I have a uniform I wear more than anything: a cropped denim button-down with slightly baggy jeans and some mules. Then I have this incredible vintage army liner jacket with a great story—it’s been upcycled and resold multiple times. I picked it up, and then I had FXRY repair it. It's an amazing piece, and I’m excited to add more clothes with stories like that.I’m really looking for quality items that are durable and sturdy. Recently, I’ve been staying away from synthetic fibers and going more organic and natural. That’s hard with gym wear, which I use a lot, but I’m figuring it out. I’m also staying away from anything poorly made.Maureen: That’s fair. I heard something earlier that I wanted to come back to—about that moment of knowing you want to wear something out of the store. Can you describe how that feels in your body? What’s that experience like?Calley: It’s definitely a rush of dopamine, but it feels like more than that. I think I get excited because it’s going to become a part of me—like I’m adding it to my uniform. It’s a full-body excitement, but not in a jolt kind of way. It feels calm, like a sense of belonging. That thing belongs with me.It's kind of like when I met my husband and knew we needed to be together. I know it sounds ridiculous to compare that to a clothing purchase, but it’s a similar feeling—just a different degree of intensity.Maureen: I’m hearing a sense of connection—something you relate to and connect with.Calley: Yes, definitely. Another thing I realized is I used to go overboard. If I liked cropped button-downs, I’d go buy fifty in different styles. I don’t need that. Now I ask myself: would I want to wear this more than what I’m wearing right now? That’s really helpful—especially when I’m already wearing an outfit I love and I’m out shopping. Would I trade it for what I’m looking at?Maureen: Yes, yes. I just put up a post recently about what our favorite items can tell us about our preferences. When you have those rock star, go-to items, it becomes easier to evaluate future purchases. If it’s not as good as the thing you already love, why add it? You’ll just default to the one you already love.Of course, different categories are different—a denim jacket isn’t the same as a pair of hiking boots—but I follow the same mentality. I love hearing when others experience that too.What else about the experience of being in your clothing influences how you dress? We talked about fabric—avoiding synthetics. Is that more about feel or sustainability?Calley: More about sustainability. Being in this world now, I have so much more access to information and research. People are constantly sharing how harmful synthetics can be—like microplastics that get washed out and then end up on your skin all day.I saw a TikTok recently that really made me think about what I want against my most exposed organ—my skin. I’d never thought about it before. You can even go deeper with types of dyes, but for now, I’m just starting here. If I go too deep, I get overwhelmed, and then I feel paralyzed. Small steps feel more manageable.Interestingly, I realized I’m starting to prefer how cotton feels, even if I didn’t consciously connect it before. Today, I was picking out a shirt, and I chose a cotton one instead of a synthetic blend. Maybe it was intuitive.Maureen: I don’t have an opinion on that one way or another—it’s not for me to say—but I was curious if your decision was more emotional or analytical.Calley: It’s been very recent—just in the last couple of weeks—that the idea of organic versus synthetic started coming up for me. I hadn’t thought about it before. Now it’s starting to surface.My husband has also influenced me. He’s always dressed in good quality, well-made things that tend not to be synthetic. He’s been a big influence on me over the last couple of years.Maureen: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting, too, because I also haven't thought about the plastics up against my skin—not once. I know about the microplastics in the water, but I never thought about, oh, it's also on my organs. So I'm going to think about that more. But on the other hand, sometimes it's good that these synthetics exist for a wider audience. Specifically, I’m thinking of people who are allergic to wool. There's a specific person I know who was a guest on this podcast—if you're listening, this is for you.But you know, how are you going to stay warm in the winter if you're allergic to wool? I guess you could wear leather and linen, but cotton is not safe in water. For example, “cotton kills” is something they say on the river if you're a whitewater rafter. It’s just all so complicated. I never know what’s the right or wrong thing, and we all have such different needs.Calley: Totally. I completely agree with you. And I think the other thing is, when we talk about sustainability—what do we mean? There isn’t really a clear definition for the movement. Plastic is certainly more durable than cotton. It lasts way longer, but that’s also the problem—it lasts too long.At past companies I worked at, we discussed biodegradable clothing and such. But I’d think, we don’t want it to fall apart either. That was one of the hardest things with recycled or organic clothing when it first became popular—it would fall apart faster. But now there’s more research and new technologies that are improving durability. Still, who knows what the right thing is?Maureen: I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I’d love to hear more about your approach to sustainability. I haven’t seen convincing evidence that there’s one specific way to be a sustainable or ethical shopper—everything has pros and cons. So, as someone who's been in that space, where do you land?Calley: It was something I used to joke about all the time at the companies I worked at—if we really wanted to be the most sustainable, we’d close. And if you want to get really dark, I’m surprised Black Mirror hasn’t done an episode where humans eliminate themselves to save the planet.Obviously, that’s extreme and not what we want. So for me, it's about being smaller in our purchasing. Supporting what I believe in—like my business, FXRY—and dedicating myself to repairing and loving what you have. Overconsumption is just out of control.There is a trend shifting because fashion literally can't get faster or cheaper—it has to change. That’s what fashion does. It evolves. There are ideas like circular clothing—wear it, return it, recycle it—but recycling also comes with carbon emissions. For me, the best path is repair. Keep the item until it truly can’t be worn, then find a way to recycle it.We have a long way to go. And honestly, our government isn’t helping. If we had laws like Europe does, that would really push brands to be different.Maureen: I appreciate you saying that. I think when we’re trying to align our values with how we shop, there’s often too much emphasis on the impact of the individual consumer. Ultimately, I’m not responsible for unfettered capitalism.Boycotting can be meaningful, but as an individual—unless it’s part of a collective movement—it’s limited. I want to see more people petitioning the government for restrictions on how brands operate. That feels more impactful than shaming individuals for shopping or telling people to buy less just for moral reasons.Instead, I try to focus on the benefits of having fewer things—feeling more aligned with what you own. That sense of connection we were talking about earlier.Calley: Mm-hmm.Maureen: It’s about understanding the value of fewer, better things. And how we can connect with what we own, rather than chase the dopamine hit of buying something misaligned with us. I don’t judge it—I’ve done it and will probably do it again. But we build up a tolerance to that when we experience the joy of owning something that really fits who we are.I appreciate your point that, if the restrictions aren’t there, what incentive does a brand truly have to act better?Calley: Totally.Maureen: Anyway, enough about that stuff. We talked a bit about your past fast fashion shopping and how you’ve changed your habits. But are there any other memorable phases or moments that helped you establish the uniform you wear today?Calley: Not necessarily the uniform itself, but one moment that comes to mind was when I moved from Orange County to Seattle. In Orange County, it was all about the car you drove, the bag you carried—very label-driven, luxury-focused.When I got to Seattle, that wasn’t the case. But every time I was at PCC [a local organic, community-driven grocery store], trying to figure out the recycling, trash, compost bins—I was overwhelmed. I realized I’d traded my luxury handbag and fancy car for a Ridwell bin and a new kind of virtue signaling. It’s not to say one is better or worse, just different. It was interesting to see how microcultures shape values depending on where you live.When I moved into my apartment here, I met my now-close friend who was my neighbor. She was also forty, single, had two dogs—we became fast friends, especially during COVID. We did everything together.At the time, I was still ordering from Zara, getting big boxes, and sneaking past her door with my haul, hoping she wouldn’t see. She’s extremely eco-conscious—washing paper towels, thinking at night about how to do better. I was terrified of her seeing this side of me.Eventually, it came up. I was so scared she would judge me—but she didn’t. She met me where I was. She shared what she did daily, not in a preachy way, just by example. I started to see how she lived—how she consumed or didn’t consume. That moment really taught me the importance of meeting people where they are.If you're trying to connect, understand, or persuade, you can't just shout at people on TikTok doing Shein hauls. You have to understand why they do what they do and offer a better path—just one small shift at a time. Then another. That’s how change happens.Maureen: Thank you. Everything you just said is my North Star. We have to meet people where they are. Be curious. If we truly care about outcomes—if we want to be effective—we must care about the humanness of the people making these choices. Otherwise, we stay on the moral high ground and fail to make an impact. From your friend’s kindness to the changes you’ve made—it’s a perfect example of how to create behavior change. Through kindness, patience, and nonjudgmental guidance. That story will stay with me for a long time.Calley: Yay.Maureen: I’m glad you have such a good friend you can connect with—maybe even more so now that you both understand each other’s values.So, to that end—what’s exciting you in fashion right now, if anything?Calley: Oh my gosh. I think it's really exciting to watch people doing things in the fashion tech space. I just saw a post by a woman named Mary Corlin Downs. She started a very cool publication—her Instagram is All Things Fashion Tech. She shares a lot about fashion tech and recently posted these beautiful fashion photos of herself—pictures of her shoes, dresses, and outfits.She labeled the images with terms like "secondhand," "altered," "repaired," and "outfit repeating." The photography was couture-level, but it leaned into sustainability in a way that felt elevated. A couple of years ago, people might have been sharing montages of 50 different outfits in a month, but here she is showing repetition—and it’s beautiful.I love seeing that shift. I don’t love the sheer amount of secondhand clothing that exists from overproduction, but I do love the access to it. There are cool businesses like Benny, which helps you shop secondhand, and Index, which lets you categorize your wardrobe. It’s just so helpful.I think it’s great we’re moving away from going to the mall and shopping off mannequins. I remember in my twenties, going to Forever 21 and buying full mannequin outfits—one for every week, basically. Now, I think differently. Maybe I have five neckerchiefs I love that are part of my uniform. I cycle through four outfits. That’s what excites me today.Maureen: That’s beautiful. I’m loving the move toward outfit repeating too. It’s such a relief. The pressure to constantly wear something new can be stressful. If we normalize repeating outfits, we don’t have to mentally calculate whether someone has already seen us in something. Once you get used to it, outfit repeating actually feels great.I love seeing examples of that. And just to confirm, who was the person you mentioned with the editorial images?Calley: Mary Corlin Downs. Her Instagram is All Things Fashion Tech.Maureen: Thank you! I’ll be sure to include it in the show notes.Our final question is: what advice would you give someone who’s trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?Calley: I’ve said this a few times, but it’s worth repeating—focus on clothing that excites you and that you feel a connection to. Don’t buy something just because it’s trendy. If barrel jeans are the trend, and you truly connect with that look, go for it. But don’t do it just because it's the moment.I also think about adding pieces slowly. I used to buy multiple items at once—big hauls. Now I really limit myself. Maybe one or two items at a time. I focus on how one new piece updates my wardrobe. And I always ask: do I want to wear this more than what I have on right now?Avoid duplicating the same items. You can build a much more interesting wardrobe without fifty black shirts or button-downs.Maureen: The idea of only buying one garment at a time and working it in—how does that help you?Calley: For me, I’m really into dressing in the same tones from head to toe. I’ve been doing that for five or six years. I mostly wear denim or a dusty rose tone. That consistency helps me shop. If I see something loud or outside my palette, I skip it—unless I truly love it and can pair it with something like an all-white outfit.Bringing home one item at a time lets me see how it fits into my existing wardrobe. I definitely still make mistakes—I’ve bought things I thought I loved and realized later I didn’t. But if I had bought five items at once, it would be harder to notice that disconnect. Limiting it helps me be more intentional and assess each new piece carefully.Bringing home one item at a time lets me see how it fits into my existing wardrobe. I definitely still make mistakes—I’ve bought things I thought I loved and realized later I didn’t. But if I had bought five items at once, it would be harder to notice that disconnect. Maureen: That’s such a great example. It’s hard to connect with five things at once, but one? You can really pay attention to how it fits, how it feels. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I’m going to now. As expected, this was an absolute delight. I appreciate how honest and open you were. It's not always easy to reflect on how we’ve grown, so thank you.Where can listeners find you?Calley: You can find FXRY on Instagram at @the.fxry. Our website is thefxry.com. We’re on TikTok and LinkedIn, but not as active. Instagram is where we’re most engaged—we make fun and informative content to show what we do and to spread the word that you can repair stretchy jeans and other things people might not realize are fixable.We’ve done a lot of children’s items too. It’s really fun to showcase fixing something like a little girl’s favorite pink sweater. Instagram is a great place to get ideas and learn how to take better care of your clothes.Maureen: Incredible. I’ll link everything in the show notes. Thanks again—this was such a joy.Calley: Thank you so much, Maureen. It was really enjoyable.OutroThank you to our guest, Calley Dawson, for joining us today.Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Only a few more episodes in Season 1 of the podcast! Don’t missing upcoming conversations with Calley Dawson— founder of circular fashion brand FXRY, plus Jennifer Cook of mom friend, and one more surprise guest I can’t wait to reveal.Make sure you're subscribed—you won't want to miss the finale!Today’s guest is stylist, writer, and creative consultant Fanny Adams of Always Overdressed. We connect over losing touch with our preppy roots while in art school, plus Fanny provides a bit more detail on her concept of the ‘Emotional Support Outfit.’ This episode touches on some tender topics—grief, body changes, and navigating personal style through it all. If you're having a tough week, know that we go there—but we also find some lightness and laughter by the end. Enjoy.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into that intuition so we can dress authentically and live fully.Today's guest is Fanny Adams, a stylist, writer, and creative consultant with nearly twenty years of experience in fashion. She's also an outfit repeater and the brains behind the Substack newsletter Always Overdressed. Fanny, welcome to the show.Fanny: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.Maureen: It's nice to sit down and talk together. For anyone who hasn’t had a chance to read your column yet, can you share what got you started writing on the platform?Fanny: It had been in the back of my mind for a few years, but what really prompted it wasn’t a happy reason. My dad died a year and a half ago. I not only lost my sense of self but also my sense of style. I had a lot of thoughts on grief—how it affects you inwardly and how it impacts your outward presentation.I had this essay in my head for a few months. I was also looking to go out on my own as a stylist, and Substack felt like a nice complement to building my brand. That essay, combined with launching my website, got me out there.Maureen: I'm genuinely sorry for your loss. How did the process of writing relate to your experience of grief?Fanny: I had the honor of writing my dad’s obituary. That was my first experience writing to process loss, and it was really sad but meaningful. Last summer, while quietly building my Substack page and thinking about my first post, I made a promise to myself: I would get dressed every day.Something as simple as putting on real clothes—not just sweats—became a way to work through grief. It gave me a small, manageable goal. Sometimes even the smallest tasks feel enormous when you’re struggling.I started putting on what I call my "emotional support outfits"—simple, comforting clothes. Then I started documenting them. Some friends encouraged me to post on TikTok, so I did, mostly to hold myself accountable.At night, I'd think about things I wanted to write about—not just grief, but other style topics. That’s how it all began.Maureen: I love that. Having a small goal like getting dressed can give you confidence to do other things. Is that how it felt?Fanny: Definitely. Getting dressed was the first step to getting the day started, then moving on to harder tasks. It also became a form of self-care.During the year after my dad’s death, I gained weight. So part of the process was giving myself grace—finding clothes that felt and looked good enough for where I was at.It helped me feel more presentable while also rediscovering pieces I loved. At one point, I realized, "I need new jeans." And that was okay. We’re allowed to gain or lose weight. Our bodies change all the time—monthly even.So I gave myself permission to buy things that fit. That made the experience much more enjoyable.Maureen: It can be hard to give ourselves permission to buy clothes that suit where we are now—especially when we’re trying to be mindful consumers. What did it change for you, having clothes that fit?Fanny: I learned not to immediately get rid of clothes when my size changes, but I’m still guilty of it. Giving yourself permission to buy clothes that fit your current body is self-care and self-acceptance. It’s about meeting yourself where you are.I’m a millennial. I grew up with specific body ideals, and I’ve worked really hard to unlearn them. But it’s tough when you’ve worked in fashion and retail. That pressure is everywhere. Why make it harder?At one point, I bought jeans from Zara. I wasn’t sure how long I’d be this size, and they were a good, affordable option. Honestly, I now swear by Zara jeans—they did what I needed them to do. They helped me stay on track with this daily dressing practice.Maureen: I saw you recently posted that you’d fallen off the dressing routine.Fanny: Yeah, I’ve slipped a bit. It’s just life—nothing traumatic, just busy.But last summer, those pieces really helped. They were a bridge. Over time, I’ve invested in higher-quality pieces that fit me now. But Zara jeans were the perfect in-between step. They helped rebuild my confidence.Maureen: I really resonate with that. We all define mindful shopping differently. For me, my size is changing constantly right now.My approach is to buy fewer items and wear them to death. That’s how I justify buying from places like Gap. I’ve tried more expensive, more ethical jeans, but they don’t fit the way I need—or they don’t carry my size.We don’t need to defend our choices. What works at one moment might change in another. Right now, I’m buying Gap jeans. Not too many. I’ll wear them as long as I can, and one pair will become shorts for summer.The reason I bring it up is because I’ve been feeling tender about some things I’ve read online—posts that unintentionally shame people for shopping certain brands.When we’re already carrying heavy emotions—like grief or major body changes—we don’t need to add shame on top of that.Fanny: Absolutely. I think there’s a lot of pressure put on consumers, and I don’t think it’s fair. It’s all about balance. Like, giving up plastic straws isn’t solving the environmental crisis, but it’s something I can do.The same goes for how we get dressed. “High-low dressing,” for lack of a more current term, is a realistic way to shop. I don’t think it’s feasible—even if you’re a gazillionaire—to wear only designer or fully sustainable brands.We all make trade-offs. I buy four Uniqlo t-shirts at a time. It’s not the most sustainable choice, and Uniqlo, while more responsible than other fast fashion brands, is still fast fashion. But those are the shirts that fit me best, and I wear them nearly every day.I’m not going to spend $95 on a sustainable t-shirt that doesn’t fit or hold up the way I need. As consumers, we need to: shop for what fits and feels good, and do the best we canWe’re part of the system, but we’re not the sole cause. Our wallets matter, sure, and it’s important to think about where we shop. But it's unrealistic to expect everyone to wear only organic, sustainable clothes—especially when you factor in size and price point.We need to be gentler with ourselves and each other, especially when we have a platform. We're already our own worst critics. Adding judgment from peers, writers, or creators only makes things worse.Maureen: I really appreciated your note on Substack about not feeling the joy of getting dressed right now. I related to that. Sometimes getting dressed is self-care, and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes, it’s the hardest part of the day.When we’re not distracted—when we’re alone in our room choosing an outfit—that’s when all the feelings we’ve been avoiding can bubble up. It’s not always about the clothes, but they can be the trigger.So hearing that from someone like you, who’s always overdressed and who works in fashion, helps bring balance. It’s a reminder that it’s okay to not always feel excited about getting dressed.Fanny: Thank you. Part of why I posted that was to let people know I hadn’t disappeared—I just wasn’t in the right headspace.I plan to write more about it this week. Going back to the idea of the emotional support outfit—some call it a uniform, but I think it’s either a step before or a step beyond. It’s a formula: something you can throw on without thinking too much, something that feels good enough.When my dad was sick, that outfit was jean shorts, a t-shirt, and Birkenstocks. I wasn’t working much—just helping my family and caring for my kids. That outfit made me feel comfortable and fine.Now that I’m consulting and meeting people in person again, I needed an updated version. I found that for me, it’s a button-up shirt, jeans or khakis, and loafers or ballet flats. That’s my current version of an emotional support outfit. I can throw on a sweater or a jacket, but those three pieces make me feel polished and comfortable.I’m literally wearing it right now—button-up shirt, jeans, and Birkenstocks since I’m at home. It helps me feel confident and presentable, even when clothes aren’t my focus.We all need to know the combination of items that helps us feel good enough to move through the day—whether we’re parenting, working, or just getting through it. We want to feel great, but that’s not always realistic.These past two weeks, I found myself repeating the same shirts because it worked. I was seeing different people each day, so no one noticed. But it made me not want to take outfit pictures—it was basically the same look over and over.Still, it was good to have that fallback formula. It kept me moving forward even when the joy of getting dressed wasn't there. And I still felt good leaving the house. It wasn’t exciting, but it worked.It’s like how Obama wore the same suit-and-tie combo daily—it reduced decision fatigue. There are times when, even if you love clothes, they can’t be your top priority. Having an emotional support outfit takes away the shame of not feeling your best.You can still do the things you need to do—school drop-offs, work meetings—and feel pretty good about yourself.Maureen: And maybe you’ll touch on this in your post, but I think the hardest part can be figuring out what that uniform even is when you’re stuck. Do you have any suggestions for that?Fanny: When you're really in the thick of it, figuring out your “uniform” can be hard. It’s a bit of trial and error. But if you’re trying to identify key pieces—your hero pieces—you can fall back on, one technique I love is setting aside a section of your closet. If you have a rolling rack, great. If not, just use one area.As you wear things throughout the week, move them into that space. After a few days, you’ll start to see what you’re actually gravitating toward. We all have full closets but usually wear the same handful of items. Seeing them set apart can help you recognize patterns.You might realize you keep wearing a pair of jeans—not because you love them, but because they fit right now. That insight can guide you to find a pair you actually love. Or maybe, like me, you’re reaching for a button-up, a sweater, and jeans every day. That tells you something.This exercise helps cut through closet overwhelm. I’m not saying you have to get rid of everything else, but knowing what your go-to items are is powerful. Maybe it’s a favorite cashmere sweater—then you know it’s worth taking good care of and making it last. Or maybe you realize you keep reaching for a blazer but don’t have one that fits or feels current. That helps you shop more thoughtfully, instead of just saying, “I have nothing to wear” and heading straight to the store without a plan.I use this with clients too. It’s not just about finding your formula—it helps you sort through what you already own and identify what’s missing. Wardrobes are works in progress. Our lives change, our bodies change, our needs change.You might also start noticing color preferences. I recently realized I don’t wear much black anymore—except for one sweater and some accessories. It’s not that I dislike black, but it’s not where I’m at right now. So I know not to keep bringing more black into my wardrobe.These kinds of observations can be more helpful than arbitrary “style rules.” I don’t love the word “rules” in fashion anyway. I prefer “formula” or “guidelines.” They give you structure without boxing you in.Maureen: I love that, and it actually reminds me of the design process in my work. I’m a user researcher and designer in the software world, and what you just described sounds like a discovery phase.You don’t start with the solution—you start by understanding the problem. And shopping is often treated like the solution, but without understanding what’s not working, we could be solving the wrong thing.It’s not that shopping is bad—we just want to make informed decisions. Use the data from your own wardrobe before clicking “add to cart.”Fanny: Exactly. And hey, we’re still allowed to shop for the dopamine hit once in a while. I’m not anti-shopping. But if you want a wardrobe that’s cohesive and makes you feel confident, you’ll get further by shopping with a purpose.And it’s tricky because for many of us, browsing is a form of relaxation. It’s part of the culture. Instagram has become a marketplace, and sometimes you end up on a brand’s website without even realizing you clicked through.Browsing is okay. But having a working shopping list in mind while you’re browsing helps. It lets you consume more consciously—better for the environment and your budget. Especially right now, with financial uncertainty, it’s a good time to get creative with what we already have.Historically, moments of constraint lead to creativity. So I’m curious to see what comes out of this period, too. People might not want to shop as much, and that discomfort with consumption might be where some of the criticism and shame comes from.Choosing not to shop is a political act. Our wallets speak volumes. But we’re also human. Clothes wear out, and if we’re shopping mindfully, that’s okay.I don’t think clothes are frivolous. For me, dressing is one of my truest creative outlets. To say fashion doesn’t matter discredits how we present ourselves to the world. Not everyone has to love fashion, but everyone has style. Everyone has preferences. It’s just a matter of how much attention and time they give it.Maureen: That’s so important. One of the main ideas behind my platform is that everyone has style. We’ve just lost the ability to center our own preferences and trust that they’re valid.People say, “I don’t have style,” but their closet is full of choices—choices based on what they like, or what they think they should like. Either way, it’s valid. It might be survival, it might be self-expression, or a bit of both.It’s not a binary—you have style or you don’t. Everyone gets dressed. We just need to expand what we think “style” is.Fanny: Absolutely. And honestly, I find that people who don’t work in fashion often have the most interesting, authentic style.My dad worked in construction later in life and wore jeans and polos every day, but when it came time to dress up, he wore custom suits. My mom’s an artist.Fashion was important in our house—not in a designer-label way, but in a creative, expressive way.Some of the most stylish women I know are doctors, lawyers—people whose jobs don’t involve fashion at all. I actually think the more limitations people have, the more creatively they dress.Kids in school uniforms figure out how to express themselves through socks or accessories. Adults do the same—doctors might wear bold glasses or jewelry. You find ways to express yourself within constraints.So when people say they don’t have style, I think they’re actually discrediting themselves. They just might not feel fashionable, but they definitely have a style.You don’t have to be a “fashion girly” to have good style. In fact, sometimes those of us deep in the industry get so caught up in consuming the same media that our ideas start to blur.It’s often people outside the echo chamber who are coming up with the freshest, most thought-provoking takes. Fanny: The subject matter overlaps a lot—we're reading the same magazines, watching the same fashion shows, following similar creators. Even though we have different points of view, there's still this shared pool of inspiration.Sometimes I wonder, “If I publish this, will people think I’m copying someone?” But it’s just that the content we’re consuming is so pervasive across every part of our lives, it’s natural there’s overlap. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent.Maureen: No, I’m with you the whole way. I’ve been thinking a lot about how far I want to go with this because, if I’m being honest, fashion is one of my favorite things in the world—right up there with my family and marine mammals.But I don’t work in fashion, and even though I love writing and talking about it, I sometimes hit a wall. I wonder, “How do I make this about more than just clothes? How do we have real conversations about our lives? How do we see clothing as just one part of a full, complex personhood? That’s actually why I started my Sunday Reset newsletter series.Fanny: I love that series so much. That first one you sent really connected with me.Maureen: Thank you! I really appreciate that. I had this moment where I wondered if it would be interesting to anyone because it wasn’t strictly about fashion—or if it would come off as preachy. But I approached it like a note to myself.When I feel burned out from consuming too much fashion content, I need some kind of personal practice. I want to make space for inspiration that comes from outside the internet—and also from within.I’m not going to stop reading people’s posts, but I want to be intentional about reminding myself that’s not the only place to draw from.Sometimes we get into this all-or-nothing mindset: if I’m burned out, maybe I should stop writing entirely. But maybe it’s not that. Maybe it’s just shifting focus for a bit. I guess I’m grappling with whether turning something we love into a chore is just inevitable when we spend too much time on it.Fanny: Yeah, I think it can happen. When you're burnt out or feeling stuck, the things we usually love can start to feel like chores.And I don’t think you can always stop that from happening. The real question is how you move through it—maybe it’s by taking a break, leaning on outfit formulas that make you feel good without much effort, or finding new sources of inspiration. That’s why your Sunday Reset newsletter has felt so refreshing. It’s a reminder that inspiration outside of fashion is just as valuable.Maureen: I appreciate that.Fanny: I’ll admit I’ve struggled to finish a book in the past few years, but when I find one that really grabs me—usually not fashion-related—it’s such a good reset.Same with going to a museum, or just getting outside now that the weather’s nicer.It’s not about quitting fashion or getting dressed or writing. It’s just about focusing on something else for a while, and then letting that bring you back around to fashion in a new way.Maureen: That’s really helpful—and thank you for reading. I appreciate you going with me through this conversation. I always hope these talks feel uplifting and light, but sometimes they go into heavier territory.I’m just really grateful you were willing to go there with me today. Sometimes, that’s just where we are—and I think it’s important to name it rather than pretend everything’s fine.Fanny: Absolutely.Maureen: So, shifting gears a little—I’d love to talk about one of my favorite posts of yours. It felt a bit more upbeat, and it was about reconnecting with your preppy style roots.You mentioned earlier that you’d tried to fit in with the hipster art kids in Silver Lake during school, and as a design school grad myself, I really relate.Can you talk a bit about how you found your way back to that preppy part of yourself and learned to embrace it?Fanny: Sure. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, which isn’t usually associated with preppy style—but the area I was in definitely leaned that way.Portland often gets grouped with Seattle and thought of in terms of flannel and grunge, but my neighborhood was a bit more waspy. There was definitely a strong prep influence.And like I mentioned, my dad wore a polo shirt every single day. That was his uniform. So it was just part of the style environment I grew up in.I also went to an all-girls Catholic prep school for high school, which added to that aesthetic. Portland, especially at that time, had a naturally sporty, preppy vibe. And being so close to Nike and Adidas, that made sense.There’s just an inherent sportiness and preppiness to Portland that’s different from Seattle. So going to art school was a bit of a shock. I was kind of a pretentious turd about it—I insisted on going to a school with a foundation program because I wanted to be a “serious” art student.But the takeaway from that program wasn’t color theory like I’d hoped. It was more like learning how to use an X-Acto knife to cut foam core perfectly. Foundation year almost broke me, and it’s wild to think that’s what I based my college decision on.Art school is, pretty universally, a place full of kids smoking cigarettes, being pretentious, thinking they’re the best. After foundation year, my confidence was really shaken.Then I entered the fashion program, which was incredibly intense. Even while I was trying to fit in with the hipster crowd, I was in survival mode—just wearing jeans and a tank top to get through 10-hour days of class and hours of homework.I lived on the East side, had great friends, but style-wise I was the outlier. My instinct, like many young adults, was to try and fit in—especially because I was struggling so much with the workload. My program was very illustration-heavy, and while I had strong design ideas, my illustration skills weren’t on the same level as others. That hit my confidence hard.Looking back, it’s fine—but in the moment, it really shook me. I wanted to belong. I loved the neighborhood, still do when I visit, but I didn’t quite fit in. I was too tall, too well-fed, too blonde. I even let my hair go dark and dyed it red for a few years, trying to blend in.This was during the Jenna Lyons–era J.Crew revival, so preppiness was starting to trickle back in. After college, I moved to Paris for a bit and did a program there. I interned for a while before returning to the U.S. Paris at the time still had a hipster vibe, like Echo Park or Silver Lake, but it was different. There was a tailored, elevated element to how people dressed—clean straight-leg jeans, ballet flats, blazers. Those preppy elements were mixed in and felt more natural to me. French style and preppy style are different, but they overlap: the tailoring, the understated hair, the natural highlights. It reminded me of preppy style in a grown-up way, and I felt like, “Oh, this is me.”It was nice to feel like my instincts made sense again. Dressing that way in Paris felt right in a way it hadn’t in LA. I leaned into navy and brown instead of the black and gray everyone wore in LA. When I came back to LA, I was a bit older—not 19 or 20 anymore. I had gained confidence from dressing in a way that felt like myself during my time in Paris, and I kept that going. I no longer felt like I stood out in a bad way. I felt like myself. Now that I’m older, I’m maybe less adventurous, but that’s because I know what I like. I still try trends, but I trust what feels good. Even if it makes you different from the people around you, that’s okay.A lot of that comfort comes with age and experience—from being 19 to 24 to 35 and now 40. It gets easier to know and accept what you like, even as your body or life changes. I don’t ever want anyone to feel “less than,” but I think it’s normal to go through phases where you feel like you don’t fit. You learn from those experiences—they help you figure out what’s actually you.Back then, I was trying to present as someone I wasn’t. I wasn’t a music expert. I loved cigarettes, but I wasn’t that person. And I wasn’t friends with them because I was like them—I was friends with them because I brought something different.Since moving back to Portland about ten years ago, I’ve embraced that I love blazers, button-up shirts, loafers, ballet flats. I didn’t stop wearing ballet flats when they went “out”—I leaned into loafers, and now that ballet flats are “back,” it’s fun to see the trends cycle around.It’s affirming when something you’ve always worn comes back in style. Rediscovering my preppy roots came from getting so far away from my authentic self that I had to boomerang back. In the process, I found a balance. I still love a graphic tee. I’m not wearing distressed denim right now—it doesn’t suit my lifestyle—but I still love it. I still wear Converse. I ended up back where I started—not just geographically, but stylistically. In high school, I had five different colors of the same fitted Gap button-up. Now, I’m back to wearing button-ups and jeans—it’s just the grown-up, more sophisticated version.When you get far from your style, it’s only natural to find your way back. You just have to be patient and trust yourself. It sounds hokey, but what feels right to you is right for you.Maureen: I feel like we could talk forever! What advice would you give to someone who’s trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?Fanny: I’d go back to the idea of separating the clothes you’re actually wearing, so you can identify patterns—what you like, what feels good.Don’t hold onto things that don’t feel right. If a pair of pants hasn’t fit in over a year, maybe it’s time to let them go. It’s okay to keep sentimental pieces, even if you’ll never wear them again. But identifying what you love and why—material, cut, color, texture—that’s powerful.Then ask yourself: why am I not wearing this? Is it uncomfortable? Too tight? I’ll never wear tight jeans again. I want comfort. Knowing what feels bad is just as important as knowing what feels good. From there, you can work with what you already have and fill in any missing pieces.Also, just because something isn’t on trend doesn’t mean it’s wrong. When ballet flats went away, I didn’t stop wearing them—and look, they came back. What’s great about 2025 is that everything is available. Whether new or vintage, we have so much access now. Despite all the waste in fashion, people are better about caring for and reselling clothes.You’ll likely be able to find what you love—it just takes patience. And that’s the key: patience. People think hiring a stylist or doing a closet clean-out will fix everything overnight. But it’s a process. Building a thoughtful wardrobe takes time. Shop slowly, wear things intentionally, and experiment with pieces you love. Maybe you just needed to try it a new way—or maybe it’s time to let it go. This isn’t a quick fix. It can take years to develop a wardrobe—and a level of confidence—that really feels like you.Maureen: That’s such great advice. And realistic too—people know what they’re getting into. Thank you so much for joining me. Where can listeners find you?Fanny: You can find me on Substack—it’s called Always Overdressed.We didn’t really touch on the name, but here’s the backstory: Portland is a pretty casual city, and I’d often say to my husband, “I feel like I’m more dressed up than everyone else.”And he’d say, “Just because they don’t look good doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.”That’s not the nicest thing, but it was his way of cheering me on—to wear what I want, even if no one else is.I’m also on Instagram and TikTok under Fanny Adams. I’ve really enjoyed being part of the Substack community—it’s full of interesting voices and people I connect with. It’s been such a pleasure to talk with you.Maureen: Thank you for being here. I’ve loved getting to know you beyond your writing.Also, I’m now 100% thinking about how I can find ballet flats, loafers, and a crisp white button-down. Okay, I was already thinking about them—but now I’m really thinking about them.Fanny: Good!Maureen: Thanks again—and I hope you have a great rest of your day.Fanny: You too. Thank you.OutroThank you to our guest, Fanny Adams, for joining us today.Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Did you know new episodes of Intuitive Style drop weekly on Fridays? Subscribe so you don’t miss Fanny Adams, Jennifer Cook and more special guests in upcoming weeks!Today's guest is Sienna Reid, writer of the Substack column The Bronze Edit. I am both so inspired by her very cool personal style AND the way she writes about the experience of getting dressed. I so enjoyed connecting with her. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Sienna Reid from The Bronze Edit. In her newsletter, Sienna chronicles her experience figuring out her personal style in her 30s. As a fellow wide pants lover, she pulls the best inspiration images and eloquently analyzes how getting dressed feels. Sienna, welcome to the show.Sienna: Thank you so much, Maureen. I'm so happy to be here.Maureen: We've been having internet conversations for a while, so it's nice to actually see your face and talk to you. One of my favorite posts of yours is about the outfits you're too afraid to wear. I love how you bring awareness to that feeling—when you're excited to wear something authentic, you have all the right pieces, but it just doesn't feel quite right once it's on. You end up changing into something else. Could you share more about that post and what initially drew you to those outfits?Sienna: Yes, absolutely. That post came from a moment when I was getting dressed for my niece’s birthday party. I don’t have kids, so I was already feeling a little unsure about what to wear to something like that. I wanted to feel like myself but still fit in. I put together an outfit with a floral dress layered under a sweater and over jeans—pieces I’ve owned for years. I loved how it looked in the mirror. But the moment I thought about walking out the door, a flood of insecurity hit me. What will people think? Will I be taken seriously? Which is wild because it's a toddler’s birthday party. But the voice of doubt was loud. And that’s what made me write that post. I realized I already owned my dream wardrobe, but I didn’t always have the confidence to wear it. And the response to the post made me realize so many people feel the same way. That alone gave me the push to actually wear one of those outfits out.Maureen: Do you think it was sharing that post online that changed how you felt about those outfits?Sienna: I think it helped, yes. I wasn’t posting it to get validation, but seeing how many people resonated with the experience reminded me that people aren’t scrutinizing me the way I imagine. That realization helped ground me. It’s not that the outfit is wrong—it’s just fear. If I want to show up in a way that feels true to me, I have to push past that fear. And it's not easy. I’ve only worn one of the outfits from that post, but it’s a start.Maureen: I have a theory I’d love to hear your take on. Do you think we’re drawn to these outfits because they’re more expressive or editorial, which makes them harder to wear? Like we’re asserting something about ourselves that feels bold or different from what’s around us?Sienna: I think you're really hitting the nail on the head because I think most of us here do love fashion or style or something about getting dressed. Otherwise, I think we wouldn't be here. But then it is scary to go out into that real world and, and kind of say to the world, yes, I actually am interested in this, or this is something that I actually enjoy doing. It's kind of really putting yourself out there because. If you go out and people think, oh, she put no effort into her outfit, then I don't care if they judge me, right? But it's scarier if they think, she tried and came up with that?But it's scarier if they think, she tried and came up with that?I think the other piece is, there's something about to like, when I'm alone in my room, and I think about outfits I love, I do like when they're different. And I do like when they stand out. But then That is also really hard because in the, you know, in my real life, I'm a pretty introverted person. Like I don't love a lot of attention. So it's tough.Maureen: This is a really big question, but what are you afraid of? I'm asking myself too, right? I think you, you got pretty close with the idea of It's, it's harder when I've actually tried. It's more vulnerable than when I didn't try. Maybe that's why everyone's so obsessed with looking effortless?Sienna: That's actually such a good point. Yeah. I do think that is a huge part of it. Like I even think about, you know, other things in, in my life, like whether it's career or sports or things like that. It's kind of like when you're just starting out and there's no. Expectation that you should be good at it. It's okay if you fail, but. It's like if once you go farther and you've put in that work to get better, if you still fail, that's a lot harder to deal with.Maureen: I'd love to transition then to talking about the Bronze Edit. I feel some pressure as someone writing about style online, I feel like I should be pushing myself a little bit further, be a little bit more expressive or, I should be trying a little bit harder. Is that something that crosses your mind ever with The Bronze Edit?Sienna: That's a really good question. I think a couple of things. I think the one next almost negative that I've noticed is that—and I really fight this—I repeat the same outfits a lot. I have a couple of sweaters, a couple of pairs of jeans that without fail, I will wear every week. Maybe I wear like a different belt, but it's basically the same outfit. And I think there is sometimes this sense of guilt that I feel when I post the same thing over and over again, even though that's so normal in real life. It's almost like, okay, is this super boring for people? Because I literally wore this outfit last week and the week before and the week before. I consciously don't let me stop, like stop me from wearing those outfits because I love them, they're comfortable. I'm just gonna wear them. A very positive thing that has come out of it is that It's sort of giving me more confidence to try new things. I'm not at a point where I feel pressure to try and be more experimental. I have found it's actually been kind of a, a positive, um, effect to sort of say like, yes, you can try new things. If it doesn't work out, then that's probably a really fun thing to write about as well. It's been just such a natural organic thing. And I think you had posted something recently about like sort of the difference between Instagram and Substack. I don't think I will ever be someone who is regularly posting on Instagram. I just don't think that could work for me and my personality. That would be a lot of pressure to be coming up with these super cool outfits all the time. Whereas with Substack, if my outfits are boring, then I can write about how my outfits are boring and work through things that way.I don't think I will ever be someone who is regularly posting on Instagram. I just don't think that could work for me and my personality. That would be a lot of pressure to be coming up with these super cool outfits all the time. Whereas with Substack, if my outfits are boring, then I can write about how my outfits are boring and work through things that way.Maureen: Yeah, I would love to talk about this more because I had this thought the other day and I want to make the disclaimer that I think that Substack is a social media platform just like any other. The thing that I like about Substack is that there is long form content and so inherently that means that we aren't trying to make every little thing a sound bite that you can just digest in like a second. The process of trying to write my little Instagram bio was an absolute headache because everything that I write is really nuanced. And I can say something that can be completely contradictory to something else, and I hold space for both. A lot of writers on Substack do that and that's the benefit of a long form narrative is that you can actually get into the meat of something.Maybe that's why I like YouTube so much too — you can go so much deeper with long-form. Then on Instagram, I tried to promote this podcast, which doesn’t come naturally to me. Instead of putting up clips, I thought I had to make videos of myself putting on clothes.And I didn’t like it. It’s not what I want to do, so I only made two videos. But I had a moment where I thought, “Why am I trying to sell my personal identity and style?” That’s not what I do on Substack. I don’t know how you feel about that, because your platform is very much about your personal style, but it’s more nuanced. It’s about the experience.Sienna: Yeah, I think that’s true. For me, it’s rarely about the outfit or even the clothes themselves. Half the time, I forget to link what I’m wearing and then think, “Okay, maybe that’s annoying,” but it’s never really about saying, “Here’s a cool outfit I put together, you should copy it.” It’s about how I got there, how I felt. Honestly, half the time I’m just working through things in real time as I write — writing helps me process. That’s so different from Instagram, where it’s more about the visual — do I like the outfit or not? And that’s fine; I love using Instagram for inspiration. But for me, personally, I don’t think I could handle the pressure. It doesn’t fit my personality, and that’s okay. It’s not a moral judgment. It’s just not what I’m trying to do.Maureen: I love everything you just said. One thing I enjoy about going back to Instagram is seeing so many outfits I haven’t seen elsewhere — not on Pinterest or Substack. There’s so much diversity in bodies and personal styles, which can be overwhelming, but also really refreshing.Your posts have some of the best inspiration. You pull from Instagram, and when I see your Substack posts, it gives me a richer experience — seeing it outside the Instagram format. It’s nice to have different platforms to have different types of conversations. That’s really what it comes down to what kind of conversation do I want to have? How do I want to engage with my clothes? What’s the best tool or platform for that?Sienna: Exactly.Maureen: It can be kind of analytical.Sienna: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. Each platform allows a different kind of conversation. Even with TikTok — I love it for more in-depth styling tips. There are creators I follow who break down silhouettes and shapes, very similar to how I use YouTube. But I don’t go to TikTok for inspiration the same way I do Instagram.Maureen: Yeah.Sienna: I love that they’re all different. If they weren’t, it would be overwhelming — or boring — to see the same thing everywhere.Maureen: That’s so interesting because I don’t use TikTok, but when we link from Substack to other platforms in a specific way, I start to see the purpose of each.Sienna: Mm-hmm.Maureen: Like this morning, Devon Rule — the writer of Brand Panic — posted about Quince. I won’t go into the details, but she linked to a TikTok she made a couple years ago showing how to find 100% cashmere on eBay in the right size, shape, and so on. And I thought, “Wow, I really needed this.” That video format worked better than if it had been written. So I like having all these different platforms. I just hope they continue to be different. My worst nightmare is if they all start to look the same.Sienna: Yeah, exactly. I totally agree.Maureen: I love having this conversation, and I hope it’s helpful for listeners. So many people on Substack — including us — are both writing and consuming other people’s content. It feels important to talk about how we’re engaging with the platform.Sienna: Mm-hmm.Maureen: There’s a smaller gap between creator and audience on Substack — at least right now. I don’t have sponsors, I don’t do ad reads. I’m just someone who wants to talk about style. I show my actual clothes. So it’s worth discussing how we’re experiencing the platform — because we’re all in it together, watching it evolve. I don’t know what you think about that.Sienna: It genuinely feels like a community of people I’m making friends with. That’s what Substack feels like for me. When I post, I’m not thinking about broadcasting to an audience. I’m thinking, “I’m putting this out there,” and when comments come in, it’s a conversation. I’ve never built a big platform on Instagram or TikTok, but Substack just feels different. And I really hope it stays that way.Maureen: I keep wanting to make that disclaimer too, but then I remind myself to just enjoy what’s working right now and deal with the rest later.Sienna: Exactly.Maureen: I hope that by having real conversations and continuing to comment and engage, we can build some kind of resilience — something that lasts even if the platform changes. That we can keep creating what we want to experience. I’m realistic that some things will be out of our control.Sienna: Yeah.Maureen: Okay, let’s shift and talk more specifically about your personal style. I like to ask every guest a tricky question: How do you decide what to buy and where? I know we talked about having the pieces but struggling to wear them — but what about the other side? How do you decide what not to buy?Sienna: That’s such a good question. For me, that’s changed a lot over the past few years. And there are still habits I fall into sometimes. Once I became an adult and had to dress for real things — like conferences — my shopping started revolving around specific events.I don’t naturally gravitate toward professional styles, so I’d go shopping last-minute before a trade show or a vacation and pick clothes that were my idea of what I “should” wear. Not what I wanted to wear. That led to a closet full of things I didn’t love. Often physically uncomfortable because I’d tell myself, “It’s just for one night.” So the first change I made was to stop panic-buying. I try to avoid thinking of clothes as single-use for a specific situation. I now look at my wardrobe holistically. If I want something new, I think about what I already have — what it pairs with. I read somewhere that if you love a piece but need to buy three other things to wear it, it probably doesn’t fit your closet. That stuck with me. The other big change is how I prioritize how I feel — physically and emotionally — when I choose what to wear or buy. I have almost no tolerance for uncomfortable clothes anymore. Something shifted when I turned 35. I decided I’m not wearing tight pants or tight shirts. I just can’t do it.That’s made me pickier. If I try something on and it doesn’t feel good, I don’t buy it. That’s helped a lot with getting dressed in the morning. I don’t have a set process, but I’ve noticed the first thing I think is: how do I feel? Am I bloated? Do I want to be in sweatpants? Okay — I’ll grab my most comfortable jeans. I start with how I feel and build from there.Now that I’ve been doing that for a while and building a closet around it, I realize I actually have outfits for things I used to panic-shop for. I feel like myself, I’m comfortable and confident, and I probably show up better because of it.Maureen: I love that, and I love how it’s changed your relationship with your wardrobe. I’d love to get more specific — are there any garments you’ve bought recently with that mindset that felt distinctly different from your old habits?Sienna: Definitely. Right now I’m wearing trousers, not jeans — which is kind of shocking for me. I’m also working hard to let go of the number on the label and focus on how clothes feel.I used to buy the smallest size I could physically fit into because I thought that meant it fit. Now, I’ll try something on, like these pants — I tried a size down and yeah, they closed. But I thought, “If I have a big meal, they’ll get tight. That’s annoying.” So I sized up. I was lucky I had that option — that’s not always the case — but I did, and now I want to wear these pants every day. I like how they look and they’re comfortable.That shift is showing up in all my recent purchases. I used to own pieces I liked the look of, but when it came time to wear them, I’d think, “I don’t want to be squeezed into that all day.” So I wouldn’t wear them. They’d just sit in my closet. Now, comfort is a non-negotiable, and that’s made a huge difference.Maureen: I appreciate you sharing that. There’s such a pervasive idea that if you can size down, you should.Sienna: Totally.Maureen: I’ve had that happen recently — trying something on and thinking, “This fits.” Then someone says, “Oh, you could size down.” I don’t think they mean anything by it, but it still reinforces that mindset.Sienna: Yeah!Maureen: We can wear whatever size we want, and just because something fits smaller doesn’t mean it’s the right fit. I was looking at a picture of myself in my favorite jeans and heard that voice in my head say, “They look kind of big. Is that flattering?” That voice is still there. But I’ve made a choice — I prioritize my physical comfort. If that means my pants aren’t skin-tight, so be it. I’d rather someone think they’re too big than feel miserable all day.Sienna: Exactly. There’s no right or wrong. You just make the choice that works for you. I’ve also had to stop comparing how something looks on the model online versus how it fits me.Maureen: Yes!Sienna: Straight-leg jeans are a great example. I’d buy a pair marketed as straight-leg, put them on, and think, “This feels like a skinny jean.” The look just wasn’t there.It’s the same with sizing up — maybe it doesn’t look like it was “meant” to, but maybe I prefer that relaxed, effortless vibe. I’ve started thinking: just because a brand shows it a certain way doesn’t mean I have to wear it that way. I get to choose what works for me. That’s easier said than done, though.Maureen: Yeah, we’re all works in progress. I had a question earlier, but I lost it — maybe it’ll come back.Sienna: It’ll come back.Maureen: Let’s talk about your style evolution. Have you had any memorable phases?Sienna: I think so. I’ve always liked getting dressed and playing with style. Not necessarily fashion — I don’t follow designers closely or always keep up with trends. But as a kid, I’d change outfits three times a day. I’d say, “Now I feel like this,” and go change again. That’s always been me.In high school, music became a big influence. Both of my parents were musicians, and my brother is one now. A lot of my friends were in bands — let’s call it “light metal” — and I went through a kind of alternative phase. Not full goth or emo, but I wore black cargo pants with strings and wide legs — I wish I still had them. They had that one “weird” detail, which I still love today. I don’t like bright colors or patterns, but I like clothes with interesting elements. That’s still my style now — just a little more subtle.The older I get, the more I try to bring that back in. I lost it a bit in my twenties, maybe trying to fit in. Now I’m consciously reclaiming it — whether it’s a studded belt or just a vibe. My style is more muted, but the essence is still there.Maureen: I’d love to hear more about how you’ve approached bringing your full self and style into workwear. How do you balance that now?Sienna: Great question. First, I’ll say I’m fortunate — I work in a casual environment. I can wear jeans and a T-shirt every day and it’s totally fine, so this doesn’t come up daily, which I actually really like.But sometimes I have professional events — and those are my least favorite. I’d describe my style as casual, so it always feels like I have to stray from my comfort zone. What I’ve started doing is thinking in terms of silhouette: what shapes and proportions do I like? Can I recreate that with more “professional” pieces?For example, I love wide-leg jeans. Maybe I can’t wear jeans, but I can wear wide-leg trousers. That relaxed silhouette still feels like me. I’ll pair them with something more elevated on top, but in a shape or fabric that’s still in line with my style.I’m definitely still figuring it out. For instance, I really don’t like button-up shirts. I don’t like how I look in them — they feel too tailored, too formal. I feel like I’m wearing someone else’s clothes. So I’ve been finding alternatives, like T-shirts in elevated fabrics, something silky or structured. Things that read a little more dressed up but still feel like me. And honestly, even if I lean a little too casual, I’ve noticed I show up more confidently when I feel like myself. That has a bigger impact than the “correctness” of the outfit. People don’t remember if my sweater was simple — they remember how I carried myself.People don’t remember if my sweater was simple — they remember how I carried myself.Maureen: That’s a powerful insight. Do you think dressing in what you thought others expected had an effect on how you showed up before?Sienna: Totally. It amplified my imposter syndrome. I’d already be thinking, “I’m not smart enough to be here,” and then I’d be wearing clothes that didn’t feel like me. I felt like an imposter in what I was wearing too. Now, if I’m in an outfit that has even a small piece of something I wear every day — like a belt I love or a familiar shape — it grounds me. I still get nervous, but at least I’m not wearing someone else’s clothes. That makes a big difference.I’d rather be remembered as the woman who was a bit casual but confident and capable, than the one who wore the “right” outfit and didn’t speak up.I’d already be thinking, “I’m not smart enough to be here,” and then I’d be wearing clothes that didn’t feel like me. I felt like an imposter in what I was wearing too.Maureen: You just reminded me what I forgot earlier — straight-leg jeans are a lie.Sienna: Yes! There’s not a jean that looks “straight” on me. They all turn into skinny jeans. It’s just not happening.Maureen: Same. My thighs make that silhouette impossible. That’s why I like wide-leg jeans — it’s the closest I can get to that look.Sienna: Exactly.Maureen: I also love your idea about thinking in silhouettes. You can keep the same silhouette and just tweak the materials or styling to elevate it. I once saw a blogger say instead of adding a blazer to “professionalize” an outfit, start with a versatile pair of pants that can go both ways — dress up or down.Sienna: Yes.Maureen: I want to apply that not to workwear, but to something I’m actually struggling with — what to wear to a bridal shower. Most of my clothes are white or light denim, and I imagine everyone will be in coordinated mini skirts and heels. That’s not my style at all.Sienna: Yeah.Maureen: Maybe I just wear jeans — wide-leg, of course — and pair them with a heel instead of sneakers. But if you have any suggestions...Sienna: I totally get that. It’s so relatable. Whether it’s a bridal shower or something else, we want to fit in. We picture everyone dressed a certain way and worry we’ll stand out.But here’s what I try to remind myself: If I knew someone with a really cool, unique style, and they showed up to an event dressed like themselves, I’d admire them. I wouldn’t think, “Wow, they’re underdressed.” I’d think, “They’re confident and interesting.” I try to apply that to myself.There’s a difference between being appropriate — like, maybe don’t wear white to a bridal shower — and trying to match everyone else’s style. If mini skirts and heels aren’t your thing, they’re not going to feel good no matter what. Instead, maybe wear your wide-leg jeans with a dressier top or a heel — something small that signals the occasion, without abandoning your style.Maureen: And without getting too deep, I think it’s worth asking ourselves: why do I feel like I can’t show up as my full self at this event?Sienna: Yep.Maureen: I want to challenge that feeling before I run to the mall and buy something. I do have an idea — maybe a shirt dress in a subtle stripe, something I’d actually wear again. Something I could style over wide-leg pants for this or another occasion.Sienna: Yeah.Maureen: I probably will buy something, but only because I’ve identified a gap in my wardrobe — I don’t really have dresses. I’d like to own one. But if I’m shopping from a place of fear — thinking I won’t be accepted as I am — even the thing I buy might carry that energy with it.Sienna: Totally. And if you’re buying something to fit in with one specific group, chances are that group isn’t who you spend most of your time with. So you probably won’t wear it again.That’s been a shift for me too — instead of buying something new for every unique scenario, I ask: how can I modify what I already have? Or buy something versatile that fits into the rest of my life too.And it’s not about saying, “I should never buy anything new.” Sometimes you do have a real gap. There’s nothing wrong with that. The key is buying with intention instead of fear — and making sure it’s not a single-use purchase.Maureen: Totally. And going back to your earlier point — when someone shows up fully as themselves, even if it’s different from me, I love that. Like, I love how you layer a short sleeve T-shirt over a mesh lace top. It’s not my personal aesthetic, but you look so cool and comfortable doing it.Sienna: Exactly.Maureen: I think getting older helps us separate ourselves from the group and from the need to match everyone. When I was 19, group identity was a necessity — developmentally. But now, I can see someone wearing something totally different from me and think, “That’s so them,” and not feel the need to replicate it.Sienna: Yeah.Maureen: That’s one of my favorite things about aging. I can really celebrate people for who they are and feel no pressure to make their look my look.Sienna: Yes. And it ties into something I’ve been thinking about — how much our style is shaped by our life story. I’m trying to bring back parts of how I dressed as a teenager because that felt authentic to me, and I lost it somewhere along the way.Everything I wear now — it’s the result of everything I’ve lived. Same for everyone else. That’s why I love style. Even if we’re not doing it consciously, we’re expressing something. Even if you’re in sweatpants and a hoodie, that’s saying something.Getting older helps us shed some of that need to conform. We start to want to be different — or at least authentic. And that’s a really good place to be.Maureen: We’re almost out of time, and I want to ask you my favorite question: if someone is trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic, what advice would you give?Sienna: First, learn to pay attention to how you actually feel in your clothes. When you put something on, all these thoughts will come up — “Do I look too big?” “Does this make me look [insert thing]?” Let those run their course. Then ask yourself: do I like this?Do I feel something good when I look in the mirror? It sounds simple, but I used to skip that question entirely.Second, think about where your desires are coming from. If you want a piece that shapes your body a certain way, that’s fine. But ask: is that coming from me or from an external pressure? There’s no right answer, but knowing the source helps.When I started prioritizing pieces I loved — even if they were a little more expensive — I ended up with fewer things but a closet I actually wanted to wear.Maureen: That’s so helpful. And even if you do “mess up,” it’s just data.Sienna: Exactly. You’re learning. I’ve bought things recently that I’m already questioning. That doesn’t mean you failed — it’s just part of the process.Maureen: I’d love to build on what you said about figuring out whether a choice is coming from within. One tip is to turn off your thinking brain and tune into your feeling body. Your body might communicate something your thoughts won’t.Like, if you look in the mirror and have to force yourself to smile, your body’s telling you something. Even if your brain is saying, “This is cute,” your face might say otherwise.Sienna: That’s so true. I remember one of your posts where you tried on a few different T-shirts. I didn’t even have to read what you wrote — the one that lit you up was obvious in the photo.Maureen: That’s exactly what I hope to show with Intuitive Style — how paying attention to how you feel in clothes can be really simple but also really powerful. We just haven’t been taught how to listen to our bodies.Sienna: No.Maureen: And — not to get too political — but in a capitalist culture, especially in America, it’s not in the system’s interest for people to listen to their bodies. If your job or life requires you to ignore physical discomfort to stay productive, then tuning in becomes a threat.Sienna: Yep. I totally agree.Maureen: Sorry, I didn’t mean to have the last word.Sienna: No, this has been such a cool conversation. I love how we can bounce ideas off each other and dig deeper.Maureen: Same. I love reading your posts — I feel like we’re style foils. You’re like the goth version and I’m the preppy version — even though I don’t love that word.Sienna: Yeah.Maureen: We share similar silhouettes but express them so differently. It’s fun to be inspired by someone who’s similar and different.Sienna: Exactly. 100%.Maureen: For anyone listening, where can they find you online?Sienna: Honestly, I’m not very active on Instagram. I think I technically have one, but I’m barely on it. The best place is my Substack — The Bronze Edit. That’s where I post whatever’s on my mind and share this ongoing journey.Maureen: Perfect. I’ll include the link in the show notes. Thank you so much.Sienna: Thank you, Maureen.OutroThank you to our guest, Sienna Reid, for joining us today.Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This week’s guest is Talía Cu, writer of Latin Zine by Talía Cu and veteran fashion journalist. She’s focused on introducing the world to cool designers and pieces with soul, sourced from the diverse cultures within Latin America. In our episode, we cover everything from her perspective on Latin American fashion’s influence on the global style scene, to how she personally decides what to buy and wear. Enjoy! Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Talía Cu, writer of Latin Zine. Talia is a Mexican fashion journalist who has worked for esteemed publications including Vogue Mexico and Latin America. As a fashion illustrator for luxury brands like Fendi and Bumble, she is currently a cool hunter of Latin American brands. Her Substack newsletter showcases her exquisite eye for emerging talent, hidden gems, and one-of-a-kind artisanal fashion. Talia, welcome to the show.Talía: Thank you, I'm really excited because it's my first podcast interview in English.Maureen: I'm sure it's going to be fantastic. Thank you for trusting me with this process. I'm excited to talk with you and learn more about you, your experience, and your personal style. For anyone who hasn't interacted with Latin Zine yet, would you share a bit more about your column?Talía: Of course. Latin Zine by Talía Cu is a newsletter dedicated to understanding fashion from a Latin American perspective. It's a place to discover new fashion stories and hidden gems—brands you don't typically see in mainstream media.Maureen: I love that your work introduces us to new brands. Many people are interested in connecting to style on a personal level. Could you speak more to the global impact of Latin American brands? How is Latin American fashion shaping global style trends?Talía: I wrote about this in the beginning of my newsletter. I don’t like to generalize Latin America because each country is so different. Designers often have to compensate for things like lack of materials, so they create amazing work with what's available. The whole region has a wonderful creative spirit. Globally, there's growing appreciation for artisanal pieces and sustainable practices, and Latin America is at the forefront of that.Maureen: I was hoping to talk more about sustainability. You write about fashion discovery, which can lead to shopping. But how do we appreciate and engage with fashion without overconsuming?Talía: That’s a big reason I created the newsletter. I found so many beautiful things and wanted to collect them somewhere. I do write about shopping, but I also share designers’ stories so there's more context to what you’re purchasing. I like to buy directly from designers or brands I've followed for a while and believe in their methods or practices. I usually don’t buy on impulse. I think carefully and sometimes wait for the right piece that resonates with me. I’m also building a small archive of Latin American designers—pieces I may not wear daily but that are meaningful or significant.Maureen: Even though your column isn’t personal style, or would you describe it that way?Talía: Not exactly, but I do look at Latin American fashion from my own point of view. It’s about the people I meet, the things that catch my eye, and what I discover. I've been covering Latin American fashion for years, but I’m always finding new designers and stories, and I share them as I go.Maureen: I love the way you balance discovery and perspective without it becoming strictly personal style. There's a clear intentionality and playfulness to your work. Let’s talk a bit about your own personal style. I'm interested in why people wear what they wear—how do you decide what to buy and wear, especially since you’re constantly seeing cool brands?Talía: Everything for me is intuitive. When I go into a shop, something needs to grab my attention—maybe it’s a color or pattern. I also care about the stories behind the pieces. Like, if I know a brand has an interesting upcycling process, I want something from them. One of my favorite things is when someone compliments a piece and I get to tell them it’s from a Costa Rican designer who upcycles leather. Fashion becomes a conversation.Maureen: That’s beautiful. Your clothing becomes a part of your story and a way to engage with others.Talía: Yes, I love talking about it.Maureen: Okay, this is something I struggle with. There's a brand called Wray NYC that’s size-inclusive and editorial, and they’re going out of business. My first instinct was to buy everything. How do you handle moments like that—when you want to support a brand but also make sure what you buy is actually useful or wearable?Talía: I’d say I have two categories: pieces I wear daily and curated archive pieces I only wear on special occasions. For daily wear, I buy things like printed mesh tops from Colombian brands that I wear often. I try to balance both—special pieces and practical items.Maureen: That’s a cool way to approach shopping. I always feel like something has to be utilitarian for me to want to buy it. But fashion can also be conceptual or artistic.Talía: Exactly.Maureen: Let’s talk about how body awareness influences the way you dress. Are there certain textures, fits, or styles you gravitate toward based on how they make you feel?Talía: Yes, especially as a woman with a larger chest, I notice many Latin American designers don’t make tops that fit me well. The models they show often have smaller chests, and I wonder how the clothes would actually look on me. That’s why I don’t love shopping online—I need to try things on. I also have PCOS, and for a while, my weight was fluctuating, which made me more self-aware. During that time, I started wearing more pastels. I think it made me feel soft and loving toward myself.I also have PCOS, and for a while, my weight was fluctuating, which made me more self-aware. During that time, I started wearing more pastels. I think it made me feel soft and loving toward myself.Maureen: That’s really beautiful. I've gone through body changes too, and it’s true—our relationship with clothing can shift with our relationship to our bodies. Some silhouettes I used to love just don’t work for me anymore, and that’s okay.Talía: Yes, I'm 35, and I’ve been thinking about how many independent designers seem to focus more on people in their twenties. I love what they create, but sometimes I see things like mini skirts and wonder—can I still wear that? Even if it’s not super short, I still question if I’ve passed the age for it, or if I’m just overthinking. I don’t feel as comfortable in those pieces as I did in my twenties, and I’m still processing what that means for me.Maureen: Can I ask—have you tried one on?Talía: Yes.Maureen: How did you feel?Talía: I felt a bit uncomfortable. I kept wondering if I was showing too much leg.Maureen: I totally get that. I’m all about self-compassion, so if that’s how you feel, that’s okay. You don’t need to rush into anything. I’ve been thinking about this too. I’m almost 30, so I feel like I could still get away with a mini skirt, but I’m married and live in the suburbs, and the idea just doesn’t appeal to me. I’d rather wear shorts—they’re more comfortable, and I don’t have to worry about anything riding up or flashing someone. But I think if wearing one feels authentic to you, go for it. And if it doesn’t, that’s okay too.Talía: Exactly. That’s true.Maureen: That’s where I’m at with it.Talía: I’d love to wear tights underneath, but it’s so warm where I live, so that’s not really an option. Maybe wearing shorts underneath would make me feel more comfortable. I hadn’t thought of that.Maureen: Yeah, I think a little bike short could help.Talía: Yeah, maybe.Maureen: Let’s go back to your style evolution. Have you had any memorable phases?Talía: When I was 19, I was obsessed with collecting earrings. There was a shop in my hometown that sold beads from around the world, and I was constantly buying jewelry. Then I went through a phase of buying weird tights online from UK brands—like ones with tattoo prints. In my early 20s, I wore a lot of pink and fuchsia, but a boy I liked told me it looked childish, so I switched to wearing black. I’m sad I let that influence me. Now, I’m really into rings, brooches, and necklaces. My hair also affects my style—since changing it recently, some things don’t look the same on me.Maureen: Yeah, for people listening, how would you describe your current hairstyle? It’s very cool.Talía: It's like half blonde and half copper.Maureen: And what was your most recent hairstyle before this?Talía: I tried a bit of pink with brunette. I've always had really dark eyebrows, that's my natural color. I started with a little pink and then decided I wanted something completely different. This is probably the most drastic change I’ve had.Maureen: I love that. As you said earlier, when I asked how you decide what to buy or wear, it sounds like you have such an intuitive approach. You're in your heart rather than your head when making choices. As someone super analytical, I tend to overthink everything. How do you stay light and in tune with yourself when shopping or deciding on hair and accessories?Talía: I wouldn’t say it’s always practical. My best friend gets texts from me at least once a month saying I don’t have anything to wear with something I just bought. She always says, “You need a leather jacket.” I do buy basics for function, but I’m not great with practicality.Maureen: So you're more of a magpie—you go for color, print, and shiny pieces.Talía: Yes. I’m very selective with what I buy and like, but then I have to think about the practical side. There’s a Mexican brand that sells basics like jeans and tank tops. I go to them when I need staples. But usually, I buy something because it grabs my attention—like pants I just feel I need in my closet. I’ll figure out how to wear them later.Maureen: What’s your process for getting dressed?Talía: For my day-to-day, I teach fashion journalism, so I have certain outfits for school—comfortable pieces like jeans or trousers. Then I have event outfits. There are also those last-minute combinations that surprisingly work. Day to day, I usually repeat outfits I know work well together.Maureen: So you have uniforms and go-to’s that just happen to be more expressive than my jeans-and-T-shirt look.Talía: Maybe.Maureen: What’s exciting you in fashion today?Talía: I’m really excited that people are finding my newsletter and open to discovering designers outside the norm. Some people send me pictures saying they bought from a brand I featured. I love that. I never expected to have that kind of reach. Seeing people find and love these brands as much as I do is amazing. I’m excited about the power of sharing stories, and how Substack is connecting us globally.Maureen: Absolutely. From my perspective as an American, it feels like the perfect time to support designers outside the U.S., not out of a lack of patriotism, but out of respect and fairness. I’m excited by your work because it gives access to so many brands I wouldn’t have otherwise discovered. I haven’t bought anything yet—last month’s budget was tight—but now when I look for a piece of jewelry or a statement item, I have this whole new resource.Talía: Yes. That’s what excites me too. People in the U.S. are visiting designers in Mexico City or purchasing from them, and they’re getting pieces that are real conversation starters. You get to wear something unique, and when someone asks about it, you can share the story behind the brand—their process, their mission. That kind of storytelling fuels me.Maureen: That ties so beautifully back to the idea of clothing as conversation. So what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?Talía: Work on tuning into your intuition—it’s difficult, but worth it. I’ve only recently learned to listen to mine. Also, research the brand and ask questions. We’re used to buying things just because they look nice, but it’s more meaningful to learn about who made it, how it was made, and why. You gain context and maybe even learn something fascinating about a designer’s process.Maureen: Can you share a recent example of a piece you bought or considered because the process or story behind it was special?Talía: There’s a bag brand I’ll be sharing soon that’s based in a smaller state in Mexico. They make bags from leather scraps. It’s two women running the brand, and they’re one of the few fashion brands in that state. I’ve followed them for a few years and noticed their designs evolving. Now I feel more drawn to purchasing from them. I think they’re finding their voice, and I’d love to own something from this moment in their journey.Maureen: I love that. We can follow a brand over time and appreciate them without needing to buy immediately. We can grow with them, see where they go, and decide if it resonates later. That’s such a beautiful example of a slow fashion mindset.Talía: Yes, of course. Bringing awareness to these designers, even without buying right away, is valuable. Sharing them with others still makes a difference.Maureen: Absolutely. Thank you. This was really fun. Where can listeners find you?Talía: Thank you, Maureen. It was so fun talking to you—I love your perspective on fashion and style. You can find me on my Substack at Talía Cu and on Instagram @taliacu.Maureen: We’ll include the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and knowledge of Latin fashion. I can’t wait to keep following your posts and eventually shop from these brands. Thanks for coming on.Talía: Thank you, Maureen. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Did you know new episodes of Intuitive Style drop weekly on Fridays? Subscribe so you don’t miss Fanny Adams, Jennifer Cook and more special guests in upcoming weeks!Today’s guest is Emily Grady Dodge, writer of Just For Fun. Emily shares exactly how she found THE pants that made the rest of her wardrobe come together, how she finds contentment with her clothes, and her number one tip for anyone struggling with their style. Even though this was our first time meeting, I felt like we’ve known each other all along. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Emily Grady-Dodge from Just For Fun. She shares about her capsule wardrobe, asks the question, what are you wearing? And shares about how she is generally satisfied with less but better. We love her minimal aesthetic, dry humor, and real life realness. Emily, welcome to the pod.Emily: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.Maureen: I'm so happy to meet you. I know that we've virtually met through our writing, but it's nice to actually hear your voice and get to know you a little better.Emily: Oh, thank you.Maureen: For anyone who hasn't read your Substack column yet, can you describe what Just For Fun is all about?Emily: Yeah, so I started it a little over a year ago and did not think I would be writing about fashion at all. I thought it would just be more general like lifestyle and motherhood. About two weeks after I wrote the first post, I, for totally separate reasons, decided to jump on the Rule of Five challenge. And then my whole life just sort of funneled itself into caring a lot about clothing again.Naturally, my Substack just followed suit and I started writing about that. I was having a fun time writing about what I'm wearing, what I was planning on buying, because it was such a limited shopping year for me that everything felt really high stakes. I took every purchase very seriously—except for one, which I did very candidly write about. Just For Fun kind of naturally evolved to be this place where, literally, it's the title. It is just for fun. I'm not trying to make a career out of it. It's an outlet for me. It's something creative to do in my spare time. I do it from my phone. It's very low stakes, but I've had the best time connecting with people in this sort of niche community of like-minded individuals. We’re trying to figure out what we’re wearing to work, to date nights, to the mall with friends. How are we making choices that feel good and that we’re not regretting two months later? That was always a problem for me in the past. But anyway, long story short, Just For Fun is really about what I'm buying, what I’m really wearing—I’m super honest, big outfit repeater. I love outfit repeating. It's not something to be ashamed about. I just lay it all out there, and it's been interesting. It's very cathartic.Maureen: Yeah, I love that. It’s really fun to read your posts, and I always love your outfit pictures too. They always look really polished, but at the same time, they feel very real. Your descriptions go into the things you might not see in the image. For anyone who isn't familiar with the Rule of Five, could you share a little bit about what that is and why you were drawn to it?Emily: Yeah, so admittedly, I've never been very driven by sustainability. It's just not something that I feel overly concerned about mainly because I do have like a very naturally small footprint life like Uh, I moved to Jersey city from Brooklyn a few years ago, but I didn't have a car for fifteen years. I do. We do have one car now. Um, we live in an apartment. I have a really small closet with very limited space and just kind of naturally have to have a small wardrobe. Um, so my life choices were never driven by any like, oh, I really, really want to be sustainable. They just happened to be in line with that. Rule of five is very much rooted in sustainability. It came about from a study that said, if you're in this income bracket, you need to slow your roll. People who, in this bracket, if they shifted to only buying five items of clothing a year, we would fix this massive landfill problem that we have with clothing being thrown out at this record pace. And all of the ripple effects that are terrible for the environment because of that. That is not why I jumped on the rule of five bandwagon. I wish I could say that it was. But it wasn't. I think it's great that it exists for that. But for me, it was like, okay, I just finished the year 2023 of shopping. I kept track of all my purchases. I bought, I think, forty-seven things. By the end of the year, I was already selling half of it on Poshmark or the RealReal or donating it because I didn't even have the bandwidth to resell it. And just really questioning, like, what am I doing? Why do I keep making these terrible choices that even two days later after taking the price tag off, I'm like, did I have amnesia? Why did I buy that? What was going on in my head? Like, this doesn't make sense. So I saw the framework of buy five things new in one year. Renting is okay. Up to four items of secondhand clothing. And that all just felt like really safe to me. I needed somebody else to give me that boundary and to commit myself to it. When I commit to something, I am like a dog with a bone. I knew that I would do it. Like I knew I would stay the course.Trying [Rule of Five] really changed everything for me. It was such a year of pausing, of reflecting, of figuring out this root cause of why I kept making terrible choices. Um, and how to, I don't think you can ever be perfect or ever completely stop that from happening, but like how to have a better success rate with shopping moving forward. Um, and it was really, really huge for me and I loved writing about it and I loved, um, kind of that safety net when the year ended, I was a little. A little nervous, but also I felt like I was in such a good place, um, in my own head about what I wanted, what my gaps were. What vibe I want out of my wardrobe, how I want to feel when I'm wearing clothes, um, what length pants feel good, um, just all of these things that back in 2023, I was floundering and just grasping at straws and it wasn't working.There's a great Substack called Rule of Five by the woman who sort of outlined this whole idea. Her name's Tiffanie Darke. I highly recommend checking that out. My reasons of approaching it were a little different than the intent, I think.Maureen: That's so profound though, that idea that there's an intrinsic benefit to consuming less, or there can be.Emily: Right.Maureen: Personally, I would love to see people consuming less and be happy with fewer things because that is sustainable, but I love when we can exemplify that wanting less and being satisfied with less isn't a bad thing and it's actually freeing and helpful. And fun in its own way. Maybe could you speak a little bit more to how—or any moments in time when you realized like, oh, this is really good for me? This is really helping my style or helping me decide what I actually want?Emily: Yeah, this is gonna sound a little woo-woo, but bear with me. A few years ago, I saw someone and I loved her outfit, and I had this epiphany where I felt like this woman was 100% operating from a place of 'I am beautiful.' I could tell that the way she was dressed, she felt that way about herself. At that time in my life, I was postpartum, none of my clothes fit, I had a small wardrobe but didn’t love what I had. It struck me that I was not making purchases from a place of believing anything positive about myself. If you don't see yourself in a positive light, any clothing purchase is just a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. Like it's not going to get the job done and you're just scrambling for something that's going to make you feel better. But that is not what's going to make you feel better. The answer is not in clothing. When I had this moment of seeing this woman, and just the way she carried herself and what she was wearing. I thought I really need to work on myself and I'm not going to let myself shop until I believe I'm beautiful and worthy of having a wardrobe that reflects that. And that was hard for me at first. Like I was like, oof, like that feels big. That feels scary. That feels like, no, let me just keep shopping at J.Crew when they have a 40% off sale. I got to this place where I was like, if I believed I was beautiful, what would I buy? And it was a really different answer than what I was just kind of being drawn to buying without doing that train of thought. And I bought this pair of pants, and I wrote about this when I did a recent post about workwear. I bought this pair of pants on the RealReal, and when I put them on, I was like, holy, can I swear?If I believed I was beautiful, what would I buy?Maureen: Yeah, go for it.Emily: I was like, holy s**t. Like, where have these pants been all my life? I put them on and I was like, bury me in these pants. This is how I wanna feel all the time. This is my new metric. If what I’m putting on doesn’t make me feel like this, then I’m not putting it on. So if that means wearing the same outfit to every single work function, that’s what I’m going to do. Honestly, I did that. Like, I was wearing the same... I’ve worn the same pair of pants to everything. It’s crazy. And my boss, who has a very good eye for design, will be like, oh, I love those pants. And I just laughed at myself because I’m like, I’ve worn them five times in the last five times. You also told me that you loved them. Um, but I just had this epiphany with these pants. They had a really interesting cut. Um, not anything that I had worn before. I felt like they were really flattering. They were really comfortable. Um, and I know flattering has become sort of a... hard to talk about complicated word. I still, you know, maybe flattering isn’t the right word, but I do like when clothes are flattering, I’ll just say it.Maureen: Can I just put it out there? Me too. Me too. This is a safe space. Like, we, honestly, to me, intuitive style is non-judgmental. So that doesn’t mean that we try not to be flattering or that we try to be unflattering or that we— it’s not like we need to abolish the word flattering entirely. It’s like whatever we bring that day, that moment, that minute. We, we acknowledge that feeling or whatever, however our head is at and we just say, that’s okay. That’s okay. It’s a nonjudgmental approach, rather than a specifically defined thing. So I just wanted to clarify that.Emily: And I think also, thank you for saying that because sometimes I need to hear someone else say it. Um, I think also flattering can carry this other part, which is when you’re out in the world, you don’t feel like you have to adjust your own body. Like you don’t have to suck in. You don’t have to feel like, oh, I can only stand like that, you know, this way for this to look good or, oh, you know, a lot of work events I go to, there’s photographers there because they’re taking candid pictures of the event to, you know, post online later. And it’s like, oh, there’s a photographer over there. Let me suck in. I think when you feel like your clothes are holding you and they’re comfortable and you can move and live your life and like forget that you’re even wearing them. Instead of having to like contort yourself to it, it’s, it’s really the unlock. Like I hate being somewhere where I’m uncomfortable or I’m like, you know, having to readjust or tuck in or... So that’s another thing is that, you know, I really focused on clothing that I could just live my life in that I have this whole list of no’s. Like, when I shop and it’s like, does it have to be tucked in in a specific way? If it does, no. Like, I’m not doing that. I’m not buying a shirt that can only—that has to be re-tucked in every time I pee. I pee all the time. I can’t be redoing my whole outfit every time. Um, so, you know, there’s a lot that goes into your clothing choices that might not just be how they look, but how they operate in your day-to-day too. But now I’m forgetting your original question. Maybe...Maureen: Oh...Emily: I answered it. Maybe I didn’t. But those pants, those pants were like a point for me because after that, I really did. I was doing Rule of Five. Um, so that was helping, but even I think without that, I think my shopping, um, like frequency would have slowed down because I’m just not going to find that many things that make me feel that way. And having that metric, it’s like, well, you know... And I, my mom and I have this conversation all the time where she’s like, I don’t know what to buy. I go into the, you know, Ann Taylor and I hate it all. Like, I want to buy something. I want to spend money and I can't find anything I like. And I do identify with that to a certain extent where it's like... You know, I will think in my head, like, I really, I have this denim shirt from The Gap that's years old and I freaking love it. And every time I wear it, I'm just like, God, I love this shirt. Like, I love this shirt. I wore it yesterday, actually. Every time I wear it, I'm like, what can I get that is going to give me the same feeling as this shirt? Like, I can't just have one shirt that I feel this way about. So then I'll be like, Ooh, maybe I want a white denim shirt. So then I go hunting for this thing that I haven't seen on like reverse-engineering my own wishlist. Oh, I want a white denim shirt, but... You know, everything I find online, I'm like, I don't like the pocket size or whatever, you know, I'm very nitpicky. But I, I think having those, those things in place do kind of keep you from going off the rails. It's like a built-in boundary.Maureen: I, this is so profound. And the reason I say that is like, I so relate. So first of all, I feel the same way when I shop. Sometimes I really want something and then I'm like, I know that it's not going to level up to what I already own, so... But what I'm hearing in this is different from the kind of attitude of everything in my wardrobe needs to be perfect, right? And I don't think it's that. It's something else. What is this instead? What is this feeling of rightness? Can you describe that in any way? Or like, how do we explain this idea?Emily: Yeah, I think, you know, the three-word exercise that's so popular, I kind of tried to do that for myself and I don't know if I really encapsulated my vibe down to three words, but one of them was comfortable. And I think like, for me, it doesn't have to be the perfect thing. As long as I feel comfortable in it I'm going to feel so much more confident living my life in that piece of clothing. The fact of the matter is we have to wear clothes. There's no…unless you go live on a nudist colony.Maureen: Unlikely.Emily: There's no choice. We have to wear clothes. And so if I have to wear something, like I need it to be comfortable. I need it to be machine washable. I need it to be, um, something that fits in with my lifestyle of a three and a six-year-old. Like, I can't be like, oh, don't touch me because I don't catch up on my pants, you know? Um, so for me, like, I've found sort of tremendous, um, relief in finding other people whose style I really admire who don't look ultra polished all the time that I still think like, wow, that person looks really cool but they also look really comfortable and like, kind of utilitarian and like they could go grocery shopping in this and it wouldn't be ridiculous or go run an errand and it wouldn't look insane. No, I'm in New York City. I live in Jersey City, but I'm in Manhattan all the time. I was in Manhattan earlier today and I saw a lot of, I was people-watching as I was walking around and I saw some really interesting outfits. Um, so not to say that you can't wear something interesting and go to CVS, because certainly you can. [but] When I see people whose style it's like, oh, they're just wearing a button-down and jeans and like flip-flops, but they look really cool. That can be fashionable too. Like I was listening to the podcast Fashion People this morning. And they were talking about all of the creative directors shifting from all of the different design houses. And I don't follow any of that. Like, I don't, I don't know any of that. And it kind of crossed my mind this. Analogy of, um. Like I'm not religious, but I celebrate Christmas. So like I'm a, I'm a secular fashionista. Like… I don't follow the high-fashion news, but I love fashion Substack and I love certain influencers on Instagram. Not all of them, but there's a few that I really like following. And I think the common theme is that everyone that I really admire and really think looks cool and inspiring or it makes me think like, oh, I should try that. I've never worn a scarf like that before or I've never wrapped a t-shirt around my waist and worn it like a belt. Like, I'm going to try that. They all have this through line of being really, yeah, utilitarian. Like this,Emily: these clothes make sense for my life and I feel good in them. And I've never focused on being like a hot person, like that's never been my objective or aspiration, but when I'm in something that I feel really comfortable lately, and maybe it's 'cause I'm almost forty and I'm like feeling myself and I'm like, I felt kind of hot, like...Maureen: Wow.Emily: I feel like I'm in my body. I feel comfortable. I'm like, is this, what is this? What is this feeling? Like, I feel like I'm a grown woman who's, you know, getting s**t done and like wearing a gold necklace and like this thing, which I freaking love.Maureen: It's cool.Emily: That's like the fake piercing.Maureen: It's cool. I like that.Emily: My, um, now I can't put it back on, but this is like my Dumbo feather, you know, like how he needs his feather to think he can fly. Like when I put this on, I'm like, it doesn't matter what else I'm wearing. Like literally it doesn't matter because this thing makes me feel cool.Maureen: I love that so much.Emily: Yeah, my closet is tiny but mighty and the things that I love to wear are like not maybe ultra exciting. It's like, yeah, that Gap denim button down that was like, you know, $30 or something, um, is one of my favorite things to wear and I wear it at least once a week.Maureen: So going back to this idea of shopping for these things that are just top tier without being perfect, how do you, maybe can you speak about those, those perfect those ideal pants that you have, like, how did you know that they were worth buying online? Sometimes that can be really daunting to do or it doesn't work out. How did you know to click buy?Emily: I had a lot of criteria when I was looking for those pants because I was starting my workwear collection from scratch at that point, um, I had been relying on Rent the Runway for workwear for years and was sick of it. I still love Rent the Runway. I'm like a huge fan, but I just was tired of the. The like weekly selecting new stuff. I was burnt out. So this was back in 2023. I said, you know, I'm going to get this right. Like, I'm going to figure out what I want. And I knew, you know, I need a pair of black pants. That's what I'm going to start with. And, um, I'm going to kind of build everything out from there once I have that figured out. And I take public transit, so I didn't want anything that would even be close to the ground. So I was like, okay, it needs to be ankle length. Um, I'm allergic to animal fiber. A lot of really high ends were like. Well cut pants like Theory or Events or like the kind of usual suspects for workwear they're always wool. I mean, they look beautiful. I'm sure it's, they last forever and it's great, but like, I can't do it or I break out in hives and not doing that, obviously.Maureen: Oh!Emily: So I was like, okay, I need ankle length. I need something that I feel like has a little personality, but I want them to be black. Can't have wool. I don't want to spend a ton of money, so I'm going to do this on The RealReal. Always filter to is it returnable on The RealReal? They do get you with the shipping because you don't get that money back, but I only buy things that are return eligible on The RealReal. I'm gonna just look for black pants every day. I set a saved search for black pants with a few criteria, and looked every day. One day, this pair of pants came up and the white mannequin that they use on The RealReal leaves a lot to be desired. These pants looked kind of like Aladdin pants. I was like, I don't know, but maybe they'll be cool in real life. Maybe they're not as drop crotch as they look on this terrible Photoshop mannequin situation. I ordered them along with like, I think six other pairs of pants and I was like, I'll just eat the shipping. It's fine. I can return them all. I tried them on and they just worked. They have like a wrap waist with a little buckle in place, so I don't have to wear a belt with it and it worked. I tried it on with my summer sandals that I wear all the time that I have to get resoled, cause I've had them for five years and the toe has like completely worn through. And I tried them on with a pair of boots that I wear all the time in the winter and they looked good with both of those things. Then I tried them on with like a, a sheer knee high with like a black pump. And they look good with those too. And so I was like, okay, like it works with all my shoes, which is, um, one of my weird quirks is that when I go shopping in person, um, which I don't do very often. So it's a kind of an event, but I bring, I bring the left shoe to all of my usual suspect shoes in like a big duffel bag so that I can try on with all of my shoes.Maureen: Oh my god that’s genius.Emily: Yeah. And I feel kind of like a psycho. And like, if I ever accidentally left that bag somewhere, I'd be screwed. But, um, I had one of my friends and she was like, what's in your bag? Cause I had this duffel bag with me. She said, what do you have? And I was like, I was like, pants shopping at cost before this and she was like, that does not answer my question. Maureen: I get you so hard. Everything that you're saying, I would do and have done a version of in the past. We shop the same way.Emily: Yeah, it's very important to make sure that if you're buying something that it works with your other things. I love the way that these pants made me feel. I loved the cut. I loved that they, they have this like texture, they’re Toteme, which I would not in my budget buy something new from them, but they were like a little over a hundred dollars on The RealReal. They didn't have tags, but they were in pristine condition. I just really, really liked the material. There's, it's like this little nubby kind of texture. I loved the waist detailing, The silhouette was not just like a straightforward work pant. It was like perfection or like lightning in a bottle. And then from that pair of pants out, I was like, okay, now I need a blazer that I can wear with these. I need shirts that look good with these pants in the summer, in the winter, like I wear them year round. I really like peplum tops because you don't have to futz with tucking in and it looks good, um, just the way that it is. I have a few like sleeveless for the summer peplum shirts that I wear with them and then a sandal and it's like great. And then in the winter, it's perfect with, you know, just whatever shirt, a blazer Maureen: I just wanna say that all sounds chic as hell. I want to play back some of what I heard too because I think, the way that I understand your style and is that getting dressed every day is relatively easy, but getting to the point that you're at was not necessarily easy. I think that's really important distinction is that it wasn't that you just happened upon the perfect pair of pants sometimes that happens to like maybe that's what the denim shirt was. But you put in concerted effort up front to buy the right pair of pants according to criteria. And, I mean, it's so real that you tried on six at the same time. Like, I'm doing that right now with some, like, ecru-colored pants. I know that I'm gonna have to try on quite a few pairs to find the right one. And there's legitimate effort and attention to detail that goes into that. One really key thing I think you're not doing is buying a bunch of okay pants and continuing to search for the right ones. You buy it right first. Is that kind of your general approach to shopping? Emily: Yeah, yeah, I try to, what's the expression, measure twice, cut once. I try really hard to do that because I don't want to really have to….this sounds contradictory since I write a Substack about it and spend a lot of time kind of thinking and writing about it and talking about what I'm wearing. But in my day to day, I don't really want to spend that much time thinking about [getting dressed] I want to be able to open my closet and have a few options that I really like and anything will do. Maureen: Are we the same person? Are we long-lost twins? Emily: I think that's why we hit it off so instantly on Substack. Like, you know, when you meet someone and you just, like, know that this person thinks like I do. Maureen: I'd rather do the upfront work and then the day-to-day is easy. All the shoes need to go with the pants. I mean like that's the thing that unlocked my wardrobe for me was like I used to buy cropped pants and I only liked them with very select shoes. And so I have t do this whole mental gymnastics of like, I want to wear sneakers but all my pants are cropped and I don't like sneakers with cropped pants on me. And then when I finally started to buy pants that worked with all of my shoes, it was like the mental energy went from like a thousand to like zero. And it was like, oh. I could have been doing this the whole time??All of these things are just really resonating with me. I had another thing I wanted to go back to. Just the way that you approach all this…I think it's so useful for [when someone knows] something's not working but not really sure why. A level of choosiness can be satisfying to get it right and then not have to think about it again.Emily: Yeah, totally. So you know who Jenna Kutcher is?Maureen: I don’t think so.Emily: She's a motivational speaker. I don't know if that's the right term, but I haven't followed her in years. I used to really follow her closely and she had a podcast and she was a big proponent of talking about what you know, because to you, once you know it, you're like, well, doesn't everybody know this? Because I know it and I'm not special and like this can't be something special because I know it. But if you really stop and reflect and you think about where you were a year ago, it's like, oh, well, I didn't know this a year ago. Now I do. Now it feels like second nature, You're always one step ahead of somebody else and someone else is always one step ahead of you. And so I think, you know, sometimes I feel kind of like silly writing my Substack where I'm like, what am I doing? Like, why am I doing this? Like, is this weird? Do my coworkers think I'm weird when they see this? Like, are they, you know, thoughts run through your head of like, Why is she, you know, she's like a mom and she's taking mirror selfies and talking about it on the internet and oversharing. But I do think that if you have figured something out and you talk about it, There's going to be someone who is ready to hear that and is really grateful to hear that. And the internet, for better or for worse has become this. Resource for all of us where if you want to seek something out, no matter how niche it is like you can find someone who's done something before you and you can learn from that person. There have been a million examples of things I kind of wish I could have learned more about that I'm sure people just thought this is too basic to even talk about. Like, before I had my son, we lived in this really small apartment. And I wondered, like, what do people do that don't have room for a changing table? What do you do? Do you need a changing table? Do you not? And I went on this, like, crazy rabbit hole search of, like, People who had written blog posts about not having a changing table. Does your back hurt after a while? And I finally found this one woman who wrote this whole blog post about how she never had a changing table. And I was like, thank you. God, like, I needed someone to tell me it was okay and then I didn't ever have one and I was fine. And I think it's one of those examples of, like, something so benign and you might not think twice about, like, Bringing a left shoe with you shopping. Oh, doesn't everyone do that? And then you tell your friends and they're like, what the f*** are you talking about? They’re like, actually, that's a really good idea. I'm going to I'm gonna do that and maybe I won't have to hate all the clothes in my closet ten months from now. Part of my Substack is I, and this is maybe more the initial intent when I thought it was going to be more lifestyle or motherhood was to talk about these things that I'm doing that other people might be one step behind me and their fife trajectory wondering like, well, how do you have a kid in New York City without a car or how do you have a closet that only fits twenty hangers but you have a corporate job and you need to look professional? I'm a talker in case that hasn't become clear…Maureen: I think you’re very eloquent.Emily: I love talking about anything. I joke and say like I wasn't born with an embarrassed bone, I'm very candid about things and, I don't think hiding things or keeping things to yourself is like the secret to a happy life. As soon as you admit something that maybe you think other people have never felt, they're like, oh, no, I feel that, too, all the time.As soon as you admit something that maybe you think other people have never felt, they're like, oh, no, I feel that, too, all the time.Maureen: Mm-hmm.Emily: You feel that? You? I feel that. Substack is a great place to merge, talking about fashion, but also talking about real things. Like I had written this post like a little pep talk to myself. And I actually look back at it all the time where I'm like, oh, I need that pep talk today. I'm gonna go read my own post to give myself that pep talk. Do the work up front, have a small footprint wardrobe that works for me and is easy and I feel good about and I feel good in and then talk about it on the internet to strangers.Maureen: No, I think it's, it's so true. There's always someone that wants to hear those things that are second nature and Yeah, I love that idea of we're almost writing for ourselves to a year ago the things that we're documenting the things that we didn't know and we're sharing what we're learning as we go and I think that's super fair. So many people clearly do want to listen and read [to Just For Fun ] and I think why not if it's fun to do!Emily: Well, the title Just For Fun, I stole it from Instagram because that's one of the Instagram categories is just for fun. That's how I have my Instagram marked. I post more artwork on, on Instagram and then just silly stuff. I had myself marked as an artist for a really long time and it really weighed on me like, oh, like, do I call myself an artist? Do I not? I don't know. That title feels really big. And I changed it to just for fun one day because I was really overthinking it. As soon as I did that, I just felt like this weight off my shoulders where I was like. This is just for fun. This is literally for fun. Why am I picking it apart and making it this big thing that it's not? And so when I started a Substack on a whim, I was like, I'm going to call it just for fun because, um, that's exactly what this is. If it's not fun, I'm not going to do it. And if it is fun, I'll keep doing it. I don't care if like one person subscribes or a couple hundred, if it's fun for me, then, and one or two other people are interacting and I'm enjoying that, which they are. Anytime someone comments on one of my posts, I just like get this little adrenaline rush and I'm so excited. And it's like really fun to, to talk about because my husband and my friends aren't really into fashion, so it’s a great outlet for me.Maureen: We have to build the community we want.Emily: Online in real life, it's all fair game in 2025. Maureen: Everything that you've shared has been so... Practical and really easy to learn from, but if you were going to give anyone advice, uh, that were, they were trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them, what would you recommend?Emily: Pause in your shopping. Say, like, I'm not gonna shop for a month, or a weekend. Everybody has different speed at which they, they shop and some people shop more than others and I don't think it's worth labeling good or bad or anything. If you can take a pause from your typical cadence, and really just sit with your wardrobe. Wear the things that you own. Anything you don't like move to the back of your closet. You don't have to donate it right away. Just move it out of your line of sight. And the things that you do like do not feel embarrassed or ashamed or anything negative about wearing them like over and over and over. The more you wear your clothes, the more you figure out…even how you like wearing them. A button down, for example, do you like tucking it in? Do you like having it untucked? I like pushing the sleeve up really high. Do you like doing that? Where do you like the button to be? What kind of jewelry do you like wearing with a button-down? What kind of earrings do you like wearing with the jewelry? There's so many questions you can ask yourself, but when you're constantly acquiring, it becomes really hard to assess what you have. And so I would say pause and really just sit with your feelings. There's so many questions you can ask yourself, but when you're constantly acquiring, it becomes really hard to assess what you have.Try your clothes on. If you have a shirt and you can only stand to wear it once a month, maybe it's time to give that shirt another life to someone else or take it to a tailor and say like, hey, maybe this would be better as a sweater vest instead of a long sleeve sweater or. Maybe these jeans could become cut off shorts for this summer or whatever it is like it doesn't necessarily have to be that you're giving it away or selling it or having it end up in a landfill but I do think that wearing what you own, even if you're wearing the same outfit over and over, gives you a certain amount of clarity that just can't be gained through any other way. The only way to that end destination is through. And I did find last year that there were two or three outfits that I just always kept falling back on, falling back on. Loving to wear, felt great in, and at the end of the day, I was like, I don't really need to go out and buy more stuff that makes me feel this way. I really can just wear the same pair of jeans five days a week. And no one will notice. If I'm okay with that and that feels good. If we find one thing we like, we're like, well, I need ten of this same thing. And you really don't need that. You can find ways to wear your clothes all the time and not feel burnt out and not feel like sick of them. Yeah, I love outfit repeating. I wear the same outfits all the time and I like it because I know the variables like I know that I'm not gonna be uncomfortable or I'm not gonna have to be like constantly readjusting something and I'm gonna just be able to like forget that I'm even wearing something. That would be my one, my one piece of advice is just like take some time. To sit with what you have before getting more stuff.Maureen: I hear two things in that that really resonate.The first being you're centering your own experience. You're sitting with your own preferences, validating them, and letting that be what's important. Your preferences are more important than acquiring new things. That alone I think is really profound. The second part, is that you have a high attention to detail and you have high standards, right? Emily: Mm-hmm.Maureen: And you are also satisfied with what you have. Sometimes we think we have to lower your standards to be satisfied. And I, what I'm hearing is no. You can have high standards, and you can also be satisfied when you simply make space for your preferences to be valid and lean into them and lean into them. I think those two things together are so helpful for anyone that is trying to get dressed and trying to have a wardrobe that resonates with them and helps them live their best life. We don't have to necessarily choose between the things that we want and the things that make us feel good. I think the thing that is actually distracting us is all the outside stuff. The things that we feel that we should be doing, the things we should be buying, the person we should be. And it's that inner work that allows us to just be happy with what we have and who we are.Emily: Yeah, a hundred percent. I saw something the other day that said internal alignment and then it had the greater than sign external validation and I think when you feel solid in your style and your clothes. It doesn't have to be perfect. There's not like a fashion nirvana where you're like. this is pure perfection. There's always going to be certain things where you're like, oh, I wonder if there's a better white t-shirt out there or, those types of thoughts. But I think when you generally feel really good, you don't even need people to say like, oh, I love your outfit. Or if somebody says something, you know, slightly judgmental, it doesn't even bother you because your internal alignment is there and the outside external stuff really doesn't get to you. So if you're not in that place, and I have totally been in that same place before where external validation felt so huge because I was not in alignment internally. And anything that anyone said felt like a dagger to the heart. I took it so personally and read into things that didn't need to be read into. I've been there.I've been in situations where I'm in a work meeting and I'm in my head. I'm like, I hate this outfit. I freaking hate this. It doesn't have to be that way. I think if you work on seeing yourself as like the beautiful, amazing person that you are and I really believe that everyone is. This is a mindset shift to see yourself that way, but think about your friends, think about your cousins, think about your sisters, your moms. If you heard anyone say something to them, and this is cliche, what we think about our own selves like you would be mortified, right? Like we're just so hard on ourselves. And if you can change that, which I feel like I have done a really good job in changing that and I'm really not hard on myself anymore like I really do think positive things about myself. The clothes too, even if it's not the perfect denim button down or whatever, there's less pressure on it. There's less pressure to have the perfect wardrobe because it's like, that's just kind of like, sprinkles on the icing that is the cupcake. It's fun to have, but it's not my whole identity and it's not how I'm feeling good about myself at the end of the day. When I really was able to like talk to myself in a nice way and really talk to myself the way like I would want my daughter to talk to herself someday, everything changed where I was like, wow, like I can just wear like a t-shirt and jeans and say, yeah, I'm interested in fashion. Like, I'm allowed to say that. I'm allowed to take up space and like have that opinion and make that statement about myself. It's not up to someone else to be like, you don't look like you're interested in fashion. And that, like, F you. Like, I am interested in fashion. And I can also wear a Gap denim button-down three out of five days of the week. It's not mutually exclusive. The more work you can do internally, it's going to reflect itself in your closet at the end of the day and the choices that you're making. We all just have to be nice to ourselves.Maureen: Emily, this is the absolute best conversation. I needed this this week. Everything that you're saying is so... My experience, it's so true. We cannot make aligned decisions with our wardrobes when we hate ourselves. Emily: Correct.Maureen: We have to do the inner work first. I feel like we could talk for absolutely forever.Emily: I know. I want to finish by giving you a compliment because I love how you smile in your photos that you post when you post outfit pictures. Literally, I get like a dopamine hit when I see pictures of you and I smile looking at my phone like I have that like human reaction of like seeing someone smile and like smiling back. And every time you post them, I'm like so excited. I'm like such a fan girl. I love your podcast. I've listened to every episode. I love when you post. I love your sense of style, your point of view, your insights, you're just like such a gift. Every time you post, I'm just like beaming. Your warmth and your amazingness just shines through. So I'm so happy we got to talk today. Maureen: I’m tearing up if I'm totally honest. Everything you were saying was so like my experience, but I just appreciate that because I feel the same way about about your posts, especially the. ‘What are we wearing? The group chat’ I just think is so fun and relatable, especially when our friends don't care about fashion the same way that we do. We have to create that group chat on the internet.Emily: And I do have, I do have one friend who really does care and if she listens to this, I don't want her to feel excluded.Maureen: Yes, I’m only speaking from my experience. It depends on the friend group. I feel like we're gonna have to do another episode in the future, especially as more fashion epiphanies come, and we have new versions of the pant, or whatever. Thank you so much for coming on. This was an absolute joy!Emily: Yes. Thank you so much.OutroThank you to our guest, Emily Grady Dodge for joining us today!Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style ,the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Sushmita and I cover the identity politics of slow fashion, unequal access to ethically made clothing, and how Sushmita is ready to be gentler with herself.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today's guest, Sushmita , is the writer and artist behind Ethical Fat Fashion . She's well known for her size-inclusive ethical fashion brand directory, zines, and fashion/political commentary.Welcome to the show, Sushmita!Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen. It's so nice!Maureen: Yay! Yes, I'm so happy that you decided to come on.To kick things off, I love the mission behind your newsletter, Ethical Fat Fashion. For anyone unfamiliar, can you share what EFF is all about?Sushmita: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's been a few years, and I'm still figuring it out, but Ethical Fat Fashion started off as a brand directory. This was 2021, 2022. I was sourcing size-inclusive and size-diverse brands—brands that started from a 2X or a US 20. From there, I switched to Patreon and started making digital zines, exploring a whole host of different issues. I was talking about body image, movie reviews—anything and everything I wanted to put in there, I did.That eventually brought me to Substack last year. I wanted something more frequent. The zines were seasonal, but now I post every single week, and the content changes all the time. The thread running through it is the idea of ethical fashion, but I’m looking at it from different angles—especially how our bodies and fashion connect, including how we view ourselves and how that affects how we dress.Maureen: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s so true. And I certainly experience this as a writer on Substack myself—it can be hard to pin down into one thing. But that can also be the fun of it!We're allowed to explore different aspects of who we are and of a particular topic, and I think you manage that really well.In one of your more recent posts, you compared slow fashion to diet culture (aware of Virginia Sole-Smith), which really resonated with me—especially how you acknowledge the reality that participating in slow fashion has been elevated to a high moral status while simultaneously excluding so many people, particularly fat people.What compelled you to write this post at this time?Sushmita: These are really scary posts to put on the internet—especially in leftist spaces, where everybody is aiming for this moral purity. If you add any kind of complexity, you can become a target.I was scared to write about it, but I think Substack allows for long-form content rather than just 140 characters or less. It lets us balance perspectives.Hopefully, I was able to separate the idea of fashion justice from what we see as "sustainability" or "slow fashion" as a brand or an identity—because those are two very different things.Fashion justice is about better conditions for garment workers and ensuring they have living wages. I don’t think anyone is against that. I really don’t. But the means to achieve that—the current slow fashion or ethical fashion movement—has such a heavy focus on consumerism. It’s become identity-focused rather than actually looking at how we can achieve that outcome.I wrote this post after a series of revelations over the last couple of years. I started to feel more separated from the narratives that kept being repeated on the internet.One of the big shifts for me was material envy, which I talk about a lot. I saw someone very prominent in the space admit how much they owned, and I realized I owned maybe a quarter of that. The difference between our wardrobes was startling, and I had this feeling inside me—why can’t I have that abundance? Why am I not deserving of beautiful clothes?Another shift was recognizing the difference between identity and outcome. We're not really having conversations about how we can help garment workers. And I include myself in this—we, as consumers, have taken over the conversation. It’s almost a saviorism narrative: We in the Global North are going to help these poor garment workers.Maureen: Yeah, yeah.Sushmita: But the reality is that garment workers are already trying their absolute hardest to advocate for themselves. That’s why trade unions exist.Many of them are dealing with governments that, even if they have laws in place to protect workers—especially women—those laws aren’t effective. Sexual harassment in factories is a huge issue, and we, as consumers, cannot fix that just by buying differently. We are not in the factories. We cannot protect these workers simply through buying differently.Maureen: I'm getting chills.Sushmita: Yeah.Maureen: I so agree. I did not mean to cut you off, though!Sushmita: No, no, it’s totally fine. It’s a conversation! But a lot of these things I haven’t said out loud before, so I’m still forming these thoughts as I speak.I just feel like we’ve created this belief that we can buy our way into saving garment workers. And I don’t connect with that narrative anymore. Instead, I’m thinking about what actions we can take beyond consumerism to support garment workers.One thing that’s been on my mind is that, due to the new [United States] administration, one of the key trade alliances in Bangladesh, Awaj Foundation, lost 20 to 30% of their funding. We could directly give them money.That would be more powerful than tweeting or posting online, shaming other people about their consumerism.Maureen: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes.We’re so aligned, and this is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the show right now.I’ve been a consumer of slow fashion content for a long time, and I think the early voices in this space raised important issues. They brought awareness to things people didn’t know about.And to their credit, a lot of work has gone into that awareness—helping us be more conscious of what we buy and why.But I also think it’s gone too far, to your point. It’s become about identity rather than outcome.I would love to hear you talk more about the identity of being a "slow fashion person." Why do you think that has resonated so much with creators?Sushmita: I think it follows what we already see in leftist spaces, where our identities become the whole of us.For me, the biggest issue is this all-or-nothing thinking. Either you’re buying ethically, or you’re not. Either you’re a "reformed shopper," or you’re not. There’s no in-between.I struggled with my own consumerism because I couldn’t afford the things I wanted to buy, and I didn’t give myself any grace.I had spent years building a platform against fast fashion, and unfortunately, the majority of the fashion industry—99% of it—still operates with fast fashion tactics. Maybe not at the same production scale, but there’s still a lot of opaqueness.It’s really difficult to be a responsible consumer.And I wouldn’t allow myself to step outside of those boundaries. I had all these limitations. I still have these limitations.But I was so scared of tarnishing my identity as someone who promotes ethical fashion.And yet, the whole concept of ethical fashion is actually very, very complicated. People want you to believe that being a responsible consumer is so damn easy. It's just about, you know, choosing the right brand. And now that I've been in this space for a really long time, I’ve been contacting brands that claim to be size diverse or care about inclusivity or sustainability.There are brands that use socially audited factories and have longstanding relationships with their factories, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they pay living wages. There are small businesses that have zero relationship to their makers. I’ve reached out to them, and they’ll be like, “No, we have no idea which factory we produce at.”And there's just so much ethics-washing. There's small-business-washing as well. There are brands that are obviously a lot larger than they make themselves out to be. And it's absolutely impossible to always make the right decision when businesses themselves are not being transparent with consumers. A lot of these businesses actually say that they’re ethical or sustainable, but nobody really wants to talk about that aspect.So not only is it difficult to be responsible when it comes to not buying from 99% of fashion, but it's also difficult when you are only buying from ethical brands because ethical is not regulated.Maureen: Right. It's like the word "organic" in the United States. What does organic mean? Okay, well, organic means that it’s made out of earth-created materials. [But] organic does not mean that you don’t use pesticides. So there’s this kind of—perhaps purposeful—opaqueness around what a term means, then you don’t have to define it and you don’t have to have restrictions to work within.I also wanted to go back and validate something you said earlier, which was that writing that post was vulnerable and difficult, and I completely relate to that. I put up a post, I think around the same time that you did—like, I think it was the same week. We were just on the same wavelength.Oh no, I responded to yours. I'm so sorry. I responded to yours.Anyway, I put up a post like, There’s this narrative that it’s easy to shop ethically, and yet the reality is very far from that for so many people. Again, going back to this idea of an identity rather than an outcome.I started looking into the data around fast fashion. People say, Consumers buy sixty-eight items of clothing every year. I can’t find the statistic or the background for that. There are so many things that impact our carbon footprint to begin with. And I know the term ethical doesn’t just mean sustainability—it doesn’t just encompass green practices—but when it is coming from a sustainability perspective, there’s this idea that not buying new clothing has this tremendous impact on your carbon footprint.And I really don’t think that’s true. I think that not owning a car has a way bigger impact. And as you were saying earlier, not buying new clothing doesn’t mean that you’re actually supporting the garment workers you say you’re supporting.I try to bring an empathetic perspective to everything I do. And I think maybe we’re just feeling very overwhelmed and powerless in a lot of systems that don’t really feel like they’re working in our best interest. So we ask, “What can I personally do? Oh, well, I get dressed every day. Why don’t I control and try to live my values through that?”Which I think is great, but it’s also not the bigger picture. And for anyone who faces barriers with shopping that way, it can have a tremendously harmful effect. Like, Am I a bad person if I’m not shopping with my values? But when the companies that align with your values don’t make clothes for you, how can you reconcile that?Guest: Yeah. That’s such an important topic. You have so many good points.So I think one of the biggest things is: who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right? So we need to balance our energy. Yes, of course, we can make individual changes, but we also need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures—rather than placing it all on ourselves. Who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right?….We need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures.And I think the thing with identity is that it’s so easy to align your identity with certain behaviors when you’re in a place that makes it easy for you to do so. I could say, Hey, I don’t have a car, and I take public transport everywhere. Well, I live in the middle of Tokyo, where the public transport is amazing. But when I lived in the countryside in the UK, that was impossible.And this is a little snarky, but there are people out there leading the Target boycott when they don’t even have Targets in their country. Like, it’s so easy to say, "Boycott Target" or "I don’t shop at Target," when you don’t even have Target where you live.I get really frustrated when people place shame on others when they have access to things that make it so much easier to conform to a slow fashion or ethical fashion identity. And of course, the biggest thing is size inclusivity.It’s hard for me because I feel like I’m constantly straddling both sides of the narrative. One side says, "There are no ethical size-inclusive options," which isn’t true—that’s why I created my directories. But then the other side says, "It’s so easy to buy ethically when you’re fat," and that’s simply not true either.Yes, there are options, but they’re much more scarce than what other people have. And the main reason I created my directory was that the biggest sustainable directory out there had a plus-size section that started at an XL, but included sizes from different countries. An Australian XL, a Japanese XL, an Indian XL—these are all very different from a U.S. XL. Some of them aren’t plus-size at all.So it was impossible to find your size using one of the biggest sustainable directories. It was not plus-size friendly at all. And so, I try to hold both of those narratives: Yes, these options exist, but it’s not easy. Right. You wrote this amazing piece about shame.Maureen: Yeah, everything’s about shame.Sushmita: And one of the things I was thinking is, shame does work—but only for people who have already taken on that identity and internalized it.Fast fashion consumption—again, I don’t know about that sixty-eight-garment statistic, I couldn’t find the original source either—but I do know that fast fashion and ultra-fast fashion overconsumption is an issue.But who is internalizing that shame? It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. If anything, they’re like, "I’m sick of your moralizing. I just don’t care."It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. So the question is: If this small group is carrying the shame, do we keep trying to reach out and convince people who clearly aren’t receptive? Or do we find other ways to bring about the change we want instead of focusing on shame?Maureen: Yeah, exactly. How do we, as a slow fashion community, shift our narrative to show that we’re not doing this to make our lives worse? We’re not martyrs. We do this because we want to stay optimistic for the future.And I think that’s where we need to be heading—toward a middle ground between "It’s super easy" and "It’s impossible."Sushmita: For sure. I sometimes use these terms interchangeably, but there are differences between slow fashion, ethical fashion, and sustainable fashion. They do overlap, but I don’t follow the slow fashion philosophy. I want more, more, more. For me, ethical fashion has always been the biggest focus—seeing it as a labor-centered movement and thinking about how we can mitigate harm and be more responsible consumers. But the issue is, there are limitations to that for sure. And I think one of the things is that, you know, we have this idea in our mind of if we buy from small businesses in the US or the UK or Australia, they may be ethical, but they don't really have any tangible impact on garment workers in the global south. So those two behaviors are very separate. But in terms of turning away from shame and moving towards a different way of consumerism, I feel like there's so many possibilities and positive outcomes from buying from brands outside of the mainstream. I really connect with it because I like the fashion that's available. I love the textiles, the fashion that's coming out of India right now, the contemporary stuff. There's a lot of color. There's things that I really, really love. I think for me though is, when you're not rich or when you have other limitations, including size or geographical limitations, me living in Japan, sometimes it's just hard to, you know, buy what you need.So there are some beautiful things out there, and I try to support those brands as often as I can. But there are things where I'm just like, Oh, I really wish that I had something warm for the winter that I didn't have to wait four months to arrive and that didn’t cost three to four times the amount plus the additional shipping. And I'm not saying that ethical brands are overpriced. They're not. But as a consumer, it's still hard to pay that kind of money, and I just wish that we would allow people more grace as consumers, especially within this very, very small group of early adopters who’ve taken on these new behaviors. I wish that it didn't have to be this kind of thing of like, you have to be perfect all the time. Otherwise, you no longer believe in the things that you believe.Maureen: To that point, I would love to hear a little bit about... you had posted somewhat recently about trying to experience some more consumerism ease. Could you share a little bit more about some of the steps that you might take towards giving yourself that slack when it comes to buying clothes that align with your ethical values?Sushmita:Yeah, I will. I think, again, it's really scary. It's like, it's almost like saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm stepping out of bounds." I'm afraid about, you know, how people will judge me. I went on to... this is completely unrelated, but before the consumerism ease, I went on to a podcast a few months ago and I had somebody email me. One of the things that they emailed me about was veganism and how important it was to them, and I found it really strange because I'm not vegan. I don’t talk about food in that way. And nothing that I said on that podcast was about food. But it was almost like, if you believe in this, then you should also believe in this. And they had put me into, I think, a box of like a perfect sustainable advocate, and that's not something that I align with at all. The only reason I said it was because I just get scared of doing things that fall out of those identity parameters and how I will be seen and how my body of work might be misaligned because I'm not towing that line perfectly.But yeah, so in terms of the consumerism ease, one of the things is, people who are now reformed slow fashion advocates or ethical fashion advocates, they got a lot of time where they were able to over-consume and they got to find their style. And then all of a sudden overnight, they're like, Hey, not into that anymore. And you're a bad person if you still are. So they got that experience. Whilst for me, and I've spoken about this time and time again, my size and my economic situation changed very, very dramatically.So, I didn’t over-consume fast fashion for a decade. I didn’t even really do anything with fashion. I just had my work outfits and then I had some comfy athleisure outfits, and that was it. I just had no opportunity. And so now that I'm trying to discover my style and connect with fashion, one of the things that has really come to light is that it takes work, and it doesn't always happen right away.So, what I mean is when you make a purchase, it doesn't mean that that purchase is going to be completely amazing and suit you. So that's why I don't really think like, you know, if you only make five purchases a year, if you're fat or if, like, you know, for me, I'm also petite as well. Those limitations mean the chances are out of those five purchases, they're not all going to fit me in the way that I want.And so the biggest ease that I've given myself is like, if I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore. I'm trying my best. I'm checking measurements carefully. Like, I'm doing what I can, and I think, I feel like I've internalized too much shame when it comes to making the wrong purchases.If I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore. So in terms of not necessarily ethical consumerism, I actually have a really good example. Yesterday, I had planned to go to a community gym with one of my friends, and you need indoor shoes for gyms here so you have to change into sport shoes that haven't been worn outside, just to maintain a level of cleanliness. And I didn't realize that I needed those indoor shoes until very late the night before.I was like, what am I going to do? Like, I can't order a pair of shoes online. They're not going to come in time. If I order a pair of sustainable shoes, they're going to be here in like, a month and a half. It's not gonna happen. I'm not financially prepared as well to make that, you know, investment when it comes to sports shoes from sustainable brands—like you're looking at a couple of hundred bucks. It's quite expensive.So I decided to go to Don Quixote, if you know Don Quixote, in Japan. Don Quixote. It's like a megastore. And they're open very late. So some of them are open twenty-four hours. We had one that was half an hour from us that was open till 3am. I went to Don Quixote late at night. It was like ten o'clock at night to try and find a pair of indoor shoes. And yeah, so it was a very impulsive kind of purchase. I chose a brand that, for me, is very decent. It's a Japanese brand. But again, they're completely opaque. I don't think that they're ethical in terms of how their textile workers are treated. But it felt fine. I didn’t want to feel this additional layer of shame and guilt for not making the right decision under the circumstances.Generally, when I talk about consumerism ease, I just want to be more gentle with myself. Like, I've always kind of said for other people that they should do what they can within their capacity and access level, but I just have never reserved that grace for myself. And yeah, I want more of that softness going forward because I feel like, you know, if all of us are making changes to some extent, rather than a few of us trying to follow this morally perfect path, it's going to be a lot more impactful and hopefully we'll also have more energy for the more important stuff.I just want to be more gentle with myselfMaureen: I wanted to acknowledge both things at once, right? You do have an opportunity to bring that gentleness to yourself, and also, throughout this conversation and through your writing, it is so apparent that the judgment that you're experiencing is also external. And so, I do think that, when we can bring gentleness to ourselves, that's amazing. But also, like, I want to acknowledge that, for you, the fact that that's been a challenge to give yourself that... Sounds like it's coming from a rational place of like, there are people out there that will judge me and they will tell me.And I just want to acknowledge that that sounds really difficult, and I definitely don't think you deserve that. I really hope that we as a creator community can at least provide that for each other if it's not coming from the audience. And, if you ever are looking for grace, I mean, I certainly would give it to you. I'm glad that you were able to get those shoes and go to the gym with your friend. I mean, that's legitimate to me, and there are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. And so I think that one purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.There are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. One purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.Sushmita: Thank you, Maureen. One of the things that has really come to light is moving on to Substack, I have noticed the generosity of creators and the people who kind of walk the line of compassion and self-compassion and empathy and complexity. They have been the most generous to me, and I feel like really the opposite of the people who kind of spend time framing under this idea of justice have really kind of internalized scarcity in this way that there's no room for any other creator. And I don't know why, but I really obviously connect with this idea that we can be generous towards others and there is space for others, I guess, you know, especially if we're looking towards building a collective goal and having these more nuanced discussions. Building that community is like one of the most essential things.Maureen: I agree, and it's awesome to hear that your experience on Substack is different. I hope that doesn't change and that we can continue to be in community rather than competition with each other.I was hoping to talk about your art a little bit and how your art influences your style and vice versa.Sushmita: I love color. That's a big thing for me. I'm very new to getting back in touch with my connection with fashion, and the first thing that I really was drawn to was adding more color. That's because I make art and obviously I use color there and so I'm already comfortable with it. The other thing is prints; I love prints and I feel that people sometimes hesitate to add prints to their wardrobe because, you know, they might quote unquote go out of style, blah, blah, blah. But I feel like once you connect with the print, it feels like you can integrate it as part of your individual style, regardless of the trends changes. And I really liken it to when you go to an art gallery. And if you look at every single piece of work, you get really exhausted because you're reading every single art statement and you're trying to treat everything equally, and it's similar to like maybe even trying to buy fashion because you're weighing up every single option. Whilst sometimes, and this is definitely the method that I would encourage, if you go into an art gallery and you see a piece that you love, just spend time with that piece. Spend less time with the others. And I feel like that's the same thing with choosing prints and colors in your wardrobe. Choosing what you get the most enjoyment out of and really trusting yourself that you know what you like and trust what you're drawn to rather than continuously being worried about having to fit a certain style archetype. I'm not saying that we aren't externally influenced or, you know, our styles won't overlap like that's just natural, but I do think self-trust definitely comes into it.Maureen: I love that suggestion both for the museum and then also for pattern. Even just today I'm wearing this kind of like pattern sweater today. And I was thinking, I was like, oh man, that sweater is like really standing out in my wardrobe. Everything else is plain and I have this one. And I was like, you know what? I like it. I like it. I like it. That's enough. I can just like it and I can wear it and I connect with it. I don't have to question how it relates to everything else and I don't have to question like what it means about me or put myself into a box. I can just like it. So I resonate with; it's very on my mind.Sushmita: I went into a jewelry store just a couple of days ago and it was one of those like handmade jewelry stores, so the artists own it. It wasn't expensive. They were on the cheaper side and I found these, I'm wearing them now, they're little cat earrings. And I found these little cat earrings and I fell in love with them straight away because I love cats and the secondary narrative that came up was like, oh, they don't look expensive enough. They don't look like high fashion enough. And I found myself really questioning it. I was like, oh my God, you know. Oh, like, if I buy these, then it's just so, what is it? What do the kids say? Normcore. Maybe it's too normcore. I had to challenge myself and be like, wait, I like them. I should just get it. And so I did. And now they bring me a lot of joy!Maureen: Oh, I love that!Next, I would just love to talk a little bit about, we have talked about kind of the barriers and things that you face, and we just talked about that kind of internal dialogue, but how do you decide what to buy and what to wear and how do you decide what not to buy or wear?Sushmita: Like I mentioned, I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available. So that's why for a decade it was just kind of like comfy pants and a t-shirt and it was like these stretchy. Like, it was definitely athleisure. Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size. And so now... I have more options, obviously being able to look at different brands across the world. I'm able to kind of bring in more discernment. I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available… Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size.So previously, all I did was like, look at what was available, filter by size and be like, okay, this is all right. I'll just get this. And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe? I have certain colors that I'm looking to bring in. So I'm trying to create more cohesion, but again, I'm really at the beginning of this journey because I just didn't have the access before. In terms of what I decide to wear day to day, most of the time I'm inside the house. I don't really express my style. I just wear my home wardrobe, which is not very stylish. It's just kind of like very old, worn out, fast fashion. But when I leave the house and I get dressed, that is when I feel mostly more in touch with myself and my style. And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe?And it's definitely changed. Growing up, I would always wear skirts and avoid trousers and now I have fallen more in love with bold big tops and trousers. And I still love my skirts and my dresses, but I feel the way that I see my body has also affected the way that I dress. I never wore trousers before, that was because of the way that I saw like my thighs and trying to kind of conform to a certain way of dressing that may or may not have actually made me look thinner. Whilst now, it's more about proportions rather than it being about just my body alone.Maureen: And when you say proportion, what comes to my mind would be like silhouette and like expression. Is that what you mean or do you mean something else?Sushmita: No, exactly that. Experimenting kind of with the crop of certain tops and lengths of pants and, dressing in a more bold way. Embodying a style that maybe I didn't have the confidence to completely step into when I was younger.Maureen: I relate to that. I definitely relate to that. It's not easy. Knowing that, you're feeling like you're kind of starting this out or it's somewhat newer to be able to use a little more discernment when you're shopping, what advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?Sushmita: It's a big question. I think authenticity in itself can become really tricky because I feel like it gets confused with this idea of having to be really, really unique. Just like developing an art style like, you know, you have this pressure of having this singular style that's only yours and no one else's, but I feel like it's okay to be inspired by what other people wear. And it's okay to wear things that are very similar and overlap. If I liken it to just making art, then it's really just about focusing on the act of dressing. And really tuning into what you like. For me, I'm kind of shifting towards both the more, to take on one of your words, Maureen, intuitive kind of decisions about dressing whilst also focusing on the analytics as well. If you're really just starting out, and you don't have an overwhelming wardrobe, then just focusing on choosing things that you like, but if you already have a really full wardrobe where you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, I think analytics can really help because then you can see what's missing in terms of your day-to-day life and then balancing both of those decisions together, the self-trust, what you like, whilst also filling in those practical gaps.Maureen: I love that. That's such good advice and also really nuanced. Not every piece of advice makes sense for everyone, based on where they're at in their kind of personal style journey, for lack of a better word. I love that distinction that you made between, if you have a lot of clothing that's a different kind of situation than if you have a smaller wardrobe. This has been really fun and I love hearing you talk about your mission and how Ethical Fat Fashion fits into the broader landscape and, I'm going to be thinking a lot harder now about, when I use the word slow fashion versus when I say ethical versus when I say sustainable. I want to be a little bit more clear about what you, what those mean. I think we need to be donating our money to our garment workers. Could you remind us what the name of the organization was, or was it a union?Sushmita: it's a large foundation, based in Bangladesh. A lot of fast fashion companies produce there. They've shifted their manufacturing from India to Bangladesh because it's cheaper. I really feel like, even if you're still buying fast fashion, you can still contribute in that way for sure.Maureen: I am going to be posting that everywhere. I am leaning towards that direction too. I'm not going to shop perfectly, but I will put my money also towards things that I care about. And that [organization] sounds like a great place to start. Thank you so much. Where can listeners find you?Sushmita: Of course, the Substack, the Ethical Fat Fashion . I still have social media channel, I mean, Substack is social media, but... the Meta platforms as well. So threads and also Instagram, also Ethical Fat Fashion, but I'm on there less because I'm really focusing all my energy on the Substack.Maureen: Well, I can feel it. Thank you so much!Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Tina from Semi-Sustainable. Tina is a fashion industry veteran who is about to graduate with her MBA. You know her from her nuanced takes on what it means to shop and dress sustainably and her gorgeous fashion week roundups. Tina, welcome to the show.TinaI am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. And can I say I have loved all of your past episodes. You've made my Fridays so much more exciting.MaureenOh, I'm so happy to hear that. It's been so fun to make and just a quick shout out to all the guests who have made it possible!I'm so happy to talk today. I know we've had a chance to connect a little bit beforehand, so I'm just happy to hear even more from you about your personal style. For anyone who hasn't had a chance to read your column yet, can you describe what Semi-Sustainable is all about and how you got into the sustainable fashion world, specifically?TinaTotally. You know, I'll even work my way backwards to that question. So I have always worked in traditional fashion. I started as an omni-channel jewelry and accessories buyer, which is where my heart loves is categories to buy. And then I moved into apparel. And as e-commerce was heating up, I was given this opportunity to work in buying and site merchandising on the online side of the business. And I really loved that. But during that time, I never quite absorbed fashion's impact on the planet. So when I was starting out, the emphasis was on high-low dressing and being a smart shopper meant you bought from fast fashion. You bought something from a designer and you had this well-rounded wardrobe. And it was in 2018 that I went to a panel talk given by Mara Hoffman's team, and they talked about how they really transform their supply chain to be more sustainable. And they went into great detail about how fashion harms the planet and what they were doing to really take away some of that impact. It was so eye-opening for me. And after that, I kind of started down this pathway of making changes in my fashion consumption. So it was not overnight by any means, but you know, at the time I was a big Zara shopper and I really worked to slow that down and put more thought into how much I was buying. And for me, what worked in my favor, I was on the earlier side of shopping the RealReal. I've been shopping there for eleven years now. You know, first because, and then I could afford all the designer pieces that I would have loved to have in my budget. And then over time it, because it was more circular and I've shifted a lot of my purchasing to secondhand. Over the last five or six years. I was on the earlier side of shopping the RealReal. I've been shopping there for eleven years now. I could afford all the designer pieces that I would have loved to have in my budget.Then for Semi-Sustainable, I started it last fall as my innovation project. For my MBA program and we were able to get approval to work on anything that would really help grow or advance our careers. And I know I would love to work and some kind of sustainable arm of the fashion industry, especially if there's a tech component in there. So, you know, as far as Substack, I had subscribed to newsletters here and there over the last few years, but I really thought they were more of the silo of newsletters and I didn't realize there was this whole fashion Substack universe. And when I got into it, I was hooked. So I started Semi Sustainable as a way to talk about a subject that I love, but also ways we can be more responsible in our consumption. So for me, that's mostly buying secondhand and not new or what I like to call firsthand. And, you know, I don't think fashion and sustainability are these mutually exclusive concepts. You look at brands like Ganni, for example, and you can see it's possible to do or be both.MaureenYeah, I love that. Can you speak a little bit more about, you know, why semi-sustainable rather than fully sustainable, for example?TinaI love to say that I could never call this like fully sustainable because it's almost impossible in today's world. If you buy something new, you're manufacturing a new product made out of new materials. It's impacting the planet. So. You can take ways to make it a little more sustainable in your life, whether it's buying secondhand, reducing your consumption, or even outside of fashion. I try to think of ways I can try to reduce my consumption. What kills me is plastic. I have done a lot of research into plastic for my MBA program. So I'm always the person trying to. Find ways to actually recycle my beauty empties through Sephora or take my plastic packaging back to the grocery store in the hopes that it might be made more circular. So just trying to take those steps, knowing that unless you probably never buy anything again, you'll never be a very fully sustainable person.MaureenI love that nuance. I mean, yeah, I think just bringing that nuance and that understanding that full sustainability isn't really even realistic. I resonate with that so much, and Intuitive Style is about is letting go of perfectionism and just seeing those places where perfectionism isn't even possible. I did want to go back a little bit to that talk by Mara Hoffman. I know that was a while ago, but is there anything that comes to mind that like you remember from that talk that just like really struck you as, ‘sustainability is important and it's possible?’TinaYou know, I think where they were talking a lot is some things that I knew a little bit more because of my fashion background. So they talked about how they changed their printing processes to use less water or how they'd work with their manufacturing teams to. Have less fabric wasted wastage and that really resonated with me since as a buyer I was working a lot with production team or factories and it makes you realize how much all the things you make as decisions as a buyer add up. to impact the planet. So, I think for me, like having both the fashion background and then being a little interested in sustainability at the time really worked together to make me realize, whoa, there's, there's so much that I can do to pull back my own consumption. And hopefully, you know, one day getting into this career where I can work in a more sustainable way, you know, hopefully for a secondhand brand or a fashion tech brand that's really helping to make fashion more circular.MaureenYeah, super cool. I know that you also worked for a trend forecaster, uh, in the past, sometimes a hidden part of the fashion industry. Can you think of any ways that experience has influenced your perspective on the fashion community at large?TinaYes. So as you said, I worked at a leading global trend forecasting agency and I was a brand consultant there and the trend forecasters were incredible. They did so much deep dive research. And what people sometimes think of trend forecasting is very different from what it is. So trend forecasting is this really complex and nuanced topic. Not just what's going down the runway, but there's these cultural forces that are constantly shaping fashion and what we wear. Um, you know, one of the things we're all familiar with is Y2K dressing. I think especially amongst Gen Z. And it really stems from this phenomenon called anemoia, which is nostalgia for a time you've never experienced. So you see Gen Z growing up during a period of extreme change and upheaval, and they were able to find comfort in this nostalgic clothing that maybe their parents wore or they'd look back in movies and it would just be this really comforting kind of way to express themselves through style.MaureenThat's really interesting. Like, and I think it's so, so important to always think about that cultural aspect of how we get dressed because, I would never say that the choices that I make for what I wear are in a vacuum, right? Like, I can't really distill down my choices and be like, yeah, that's a hundred percent me, babe. Like, you know, there's going to be things that I choose that are because there's a social or cultural context. And that's fine. I don't have to be 100% individual in every choice that I make because, again, it's not realistic. I appreciate that social component there because we are social creatures and we also are emotional. So the idea that we would want to create I think you said, um, like comfort or that feeling of nostalgia through our clothes. That makes a lot of sense. What was your favorite thing about working for the trend forecaster?TinaIt definitely made me think about fashion much more. Probably a deeper level than I had before, just understanding, you know, what is actually driving the trend. Or in a fun way, you can see what's bubbling up. With the Barbie movie, you could kind of see pink just reach the zenith within the fashion industry. And then kind of fall its way back down. So there's definitely that very Um, emotional connection to fashion that you just touched on societal connection to fashion, political connection to fashion that you can really see clothing evolving as well as just how we're interacting with it in social media, which is. Absolutely fascinating as we've seen micro trends peak over the last few years. Now we're coming back to personal style, which I absolutely love. I love seeing how people decide to get dressed. So. Just having both of those aspects is fascinating within trend forecasting.MaureenYeah, I hadn't even thought about trend forecasters mining social media. That makes sense. Wow. Wow.TinaYeah, it's definitely, it's definitely the time capsule, I would say, of the 2000s through now. It's a way to really track trends and understand what's going on in the cultural zeitgeist. So I can find a lot of really interesting shifts in social media.MaureenRight, right. Yeah, I feel like in the past so much of, well, I would think that so much of trends in the past were driven by brands and now with social media, maybe more of the trends are driven by individuals, but maybe individuals have always been driving trends and we just overemphasized the impact of brands. I'm thinking, of course, of that, uh, iconic moment [belt monologue'] from The Devil Wears Prada.MaureenBut, anyway. let's talk a little bit about your personal style. so I'm starting to become more interested in why behind what people are wearing rather than just what we're wearing. So can you share with us how do you decide what to personally buy or wear?TinaYes, I love that question. So I have talked about on Semi-Sustainable how I've been this total maximalist dresser for most of my adult life. I had never been a print or pattern I didn't want to mix together or, you know, wear everything at the same time. But during the pandemic, I think just staying at home, I went through a period where like a lot of us, I wasn't getting dressed up for work. I was wearing sweatpants every day and minimalism and quiet luxury were just beginning to kind of take off. And I was doing a lot of research on that for work. And at the same time for work, I was doing research into next gym fabrics and consumer attitudes on sustainability and the climate crisis. As well as like helping brands learn how they can become more sustainable. So call it looking at minimalist images every day, wanting to make my own wardrobe more sustainable by being timeless or just making this change in my life to mark coming out of the pandemic period, but I started feeling off in my maximalist clothing. So over the last year I've transitioned to this more timeless wardrobe. I'm not buying prints or the bold colors or these really sculptural shapes that might date themselves quickly or be difficult to style in my wardrobe. I'm definitely avoiding fast fashion and I'm proud to say I've never bought anything from Shein, but I absolutely understand if, if somebody has, sometimes it's, it's the most successful option. And 95% of my purchases are probably secondhand from the RealReal or thread up today. So that's really what guides my wardrobe is just looking for timeless style, something I can look at and say, I'm pretty sure I'll still be wearing this in five years and secondhand first always.MaureenYeah, when you're making kind of a big shift from one end of the spectrum being more maximal to more minimal, how do you, how do you approach that without being too overwhelmed by the scale of, of the transition? Was it more of an organic process? Like, how did you handle that?TinaFor me, I just, I started feeling uncomfortable in what I was wearing when I was wearing my really bold pieces. And I don't know about you, but I feel like fashion just is such a form of like self-expression and self-care. And if I don't like what I'm wearing. I don't always feel my most confident for the day. So I dig out like the few minimal pieces I had in my wardrobe and I'm like, okay, I'm feeling better in this. And then I slowly started supplementing my wardrobe with more of those pieces. It is a good thing I am an outfit repeater and I feel wery comfortable repeating outfits because I did that quite a bit as I was slowly building up my wardrobe because I didn't want to just go on this big spree and buy a lot of things and then not really wear them. So it's definitely taken me like about a year or so, but I think I'm in a better place. I'm more thoughtful with what I'm buying. And I feel better about what I'm wearing every time I get dressed, which is a huge one for me.MaureenThat's awesome. How about body awareness? So what I mean by this is, when you put on clothing, are there specific textures, fits, or styles that, you gravitate towards because of how they make you feel in your body?TinaOh my gosh, when I think of this question, I think of the shift that I made from the 2010s era where everything was so tight and restrictive and skinny jeans and fitted tops and high heels. And today there's definitely a sense of comfort first in your dressing where silhouettes are looser and people wear sneakers more often and that's really where I'm falling. When I see skinny jeans come back, I still can't believe that I wore them almost every day for, you know, ten plus years. I felt so uncomfortable most of the time because they're so restrictive. So really having like the ease and the looseness of something that's a little more oversized as is influencing the way I've dressed over the last few years.MaureenYeah, I'm personally very grateful that we as a fashion community have become open to the idea of oversized and comfort. Prioritizing that over just aesthetics, but almost seeing the, the oversized as the ideal aesthetic. I mean, personally, I'm just overjoyed. I never thought that that's what I would want, but now that we're here, I'm so pleased.TinaI know. I know.MaureenI hope we don't go back, you know, and maybe I feel like there's a lot of people that won't go back even if the trend changes back in that direction. I think a lot of people would be like, nah, I'm good. I've seen the other side.TinaOh my gosh, I agree. I actually wore skinny jeans for my Halloween costume and I just felt so uncomfortable the whole night. So it was nice to get back into my looser clothing the next day and just feel more relaxed and what I was wearing in my body.MaureenWhat was the costume?TinaIt was Indie Sleaze, um, Ashley Olson.MaureenOh my gosh, you're such a fashion girl and I mean that in the best way.TinaI don't think anybody but me understood my outfit, but I enjoyed it.MaureenThat's so fun, that's so fun. So we've talked a little bit about the kind of transition from maximal to more minimal, but are there any other style evolutions or memorable phases that you can think of from your dressing history?TinaOh my gosh, outside of maximalism, I would say I look back at the low rise jeans mania of like the 2000s era. Which was not quite right for my body shape since I'm a long wasted person. And I just remember this as it was a time when you could not find anything but low rise jeans anywhere. And yeah, and it was also the height of these expensive jeans is social currency so you'd always want to have that brand logo on your denim pocket and I cringe today that I would save up my money to buy these. Insanely expensive jeans that I felt so uncomfortable. And every time I wore them, I always felt like they were falling down too low. So definitely memorable. I do have a couple of pairs that I am. Not ready to part with because the denim is so amazing. I'm like, maybe I can find a way to like sew five inches of denim on here to make the waist really high waisted, but an upcycling project for one day.MaureenWow. That sounds cool. If you could add five inches of denim onto the waistband of a pair of pants, I think that you would be an absolute magician. I can't even imagine. But I mean, what you're saying speaks to the fact that fashion isn't just self-expression, it's also fitting in. And I think it's totally reasonable as difficult as it can be to understand, like, we, what do you think about this idea of like, uh, Why is it that our clothing allows us to fit in with groups of people or not fit in if we don't wear what they're wearing like why is that such a big part of our. Our culture. I mean.TinaI know, and you know, you think back to your teens and your 20s where wearing the right thing and fitting in felt so important, where if you didn't have the Expensive low rise jeans. And were you really stylish? I mean, I look back at the pictures and I'm like, no, that was not very stylish, but just having this social identity through fashion, I think, especially because it's a way you can visually signal. Kind of, I don't want to say status in the world, but your self-expression in the world maybe is a better way to say that. And I have, what I've enjoyed about getting older is that I don't feel that need to fit in as much through fashion, I wear what I enjoy wearing and I'm not really a part of the micro trend ecosystem that some people might be in either because they really enjoy it or sometimes it feels like you are kind of fitting in through fashion. So yeah, that's a tough one feeling that that pull to be included through fashion in ways that might not feel authentic to you.MaureenYeah, I think there's an age component too, right? TinaTotally.MaureenWhen we are younger and we're less secure in our identity generally because, we're maybe trying to separate ourselves from our family identity, but we haven't figured out who we are, um, outside of our family. I think that's why maybe we lean into these trends as a way to create a new persona and make sure that we are, we're fitting in somewhere, um, especially like as we are developmentally separating from our family. I mean, it makes sense, especially at that age. Even now, like, I think about how, you know, speaking from my personal experience, I don't really have a desire to stand out with my clothes. I like my clothing to be, you know, conversational in the way that it's Interesting. I don't want my clothing to be boring. I also don't really love the idea of like being stopped on the street Because of what I'm wearing, you know, that makes me really uncomfortable to be observed in that way. So even today I think about, yes, I'm dressing for comfort, but thankfully also my, what is, what is in style right now are the things that are comfortable for me personally. And so I'm. I don't know that there's work that needs to be done there, but it is interesting this idea that uh, even now, where I think still a lot of people are still dressing for social acceptance in this quieter, more laid back, sneakers forward kind of way. It's just maybe less obvious because we're all so comfortable in these things.TinaMm-hmm.MaureenI don't know what you think about that. Is it just repeating the same thing just in more comfortable clothes or? How do, how do we find agency in that anyway?TinaThat is so interesting. And you know, I think we've all done it. Like we've all dressed to fit in at every stage of our lives. And I think where you're talking about, too, you are trying to break away from your family and form your own identity as a teenager. That totally makes sense. But I do think now, because the clothing has gotten a little more universal and more comfortable, it might not seem like you are dressing in a certain way for social acceptance or social identity. But maybe you are just a little bit. I know when I was younger, what drove my interest in fashion is I was so shy and clothing was my way of expressing my personality. So I would get dressed in these maximalist outfits. And when people would get to know me, they'd be like, wow, like you are shy, but your clothing is not shy. So that helped me step out in the world because I'd feel more confident when I was wearing and maybe I'd be more comfortable talking more. And, you know, today it's definitely something where I'm grateful that I was interested in fashion because in a way it helped pull me out of my shell.When I was younger, what drove my interest in fashion is I was so shy and clothing was my way of expressing my personality. And when people would get to know me, they'd be like, wow, like you are shy, but your clothing is not shy. So that helped me step out in the world because I'd feel more confident when I was wearing.MaureenMmm, that's beautiful! Are there any memorable outfits that you, like, you've loved at a particular moment in time?TinaOh my gosh, I think in high school I loved wearing knee socks and jelly shoes. I thought it was the height of chic. I don't know why. But I wore them all the time and I look back at that, you know, maybe now jolly shoes are having a small moment from last year, but I look back and I'm like, whoa. It makes me laugh a little bit to see that I thought that was such an amazing outfit at the time as a high schooler. And then today, yeah, today it's not something I would necessarily wear as an adult.MaureenThat's fair. Do you have any personal or style goals that you're working towards this year?TinaI love that question. So I actually started using Indyx App on January 1st. It was kind of like this new year's resolution of sorts for fashion and I haven't missed a day yet. My goal is to try to wear everything in my closet this year, so especially those more maximalist pieces that have kind of been stagnating in the back of my wardrobe. And then I'm going to decide if I want to sell something or not. I definitely can see that I've got my cost per wear out of my minimalist items. And I can look back at my Indyx, my calendar, and I love a ‘grout fit’, a gray outfit. I definitely outfit repeat quite a bit. And as we are talking about, I've had this kind of staunch minimalist or bust mentality. But I just wrapped up this series on Fashion Week street style, and it did turn my head a little bit back towards maximalism. So it doesn't have to be so black or white. And in the last month or so, I've gotten better about Incorporating my more over the top pieces back into my rotation, not necessarily having everything over the top, but, you know, wearing a couple of pieces a week just to make sure. Do I really want to part with this? Is this just a phase of my life or am I really going to regret selling my I don't know, animal print Proenza Schouler skirt that I got for an amazing deal on the RealReal after wanting it so badly in the late 2010s.MaureenYeah, I love that idea so much of, okay, before I part with these things, we're gonna try to style them, make them work today, and see, uh, If, if there's a place for them, I think that's really, that sounds like really fun, actually. That sounds fun. Is it fun or is it overwhelming? ITinaIt's fun. Yeah. Maybe next time we get together, I'll wear one of my maximalist pieces.MaureenI would love that!TinaI think it's, I think it's not as black and white as I had been making it. I can still feel minimalist, but over, you know, occasionally wear these over the top pieces and still feel good about my style.MaureenYeah. Yeah. And they don't have to be worn the way that you did in the past, right? We can reinvent them and wear them in ways that maybe feel cooler today where I'm with a sneaker or something. Or, you know, instead of doing print on print, we can do, uh, you know, something else that really kind of takes it down a notch or something. I think there's a lot of ways to, to reinvent these pieces. And, I'm really interested in how we move away from this quiet luxury. I know Kelly Williams from Midimalist has written a little bit and Sogole Kane as well have written about ‘where do we go from here?’ [referring to quiet luxury]. And I think you were just sharing in a post this week, too, about, you know, what you're seeing in Fashion Week. Being kind of a turn back towards 2006. And I saw that in the images too. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is like….We were in this place of everything with a white t-shirt but then like a crazy skirt and like crazy shoes and like a clutch bag that has like some fun detail. I don't know, is that where you feel like we're going? Is this more minimalist, a little bit of maximal, a little bit of quiet, all together, like as opposed to just full on maximal or full on minimal?TinaI definitely think there's a return to maximalism coming, but like you're saying, it will probably be tempered with we've been wearing really minimalist clothing for the last few years. Do we really want to give that up? So it'll probably be like Kelly's, I just love the name of her sub stack, Midimalist, like it will be in between, but there are people I see on social media or in fashion week who are wearing these very statement outfits and they look incredible and they kind of make me think, oh, maybe I should wear a statement outfit. But I do think we'll fall somewhere a little more in the middle. Just with economic forces kind of shaping what we might be buying or what we might not be able to invest in our wardrobes this year.MaureenYeah, that's super, super fair point. I mean, I try not to talk about what's happening in the zeitgeist too much on this podcast so that we can be a little bit escapist. But yeah, I mean, I think that's very fair, like with the price of eggs high. You know, it can be kind of hard to justify making a more, you know, maximalist purchase, which are probably, if they're well done, they're very expensive. So I think that's a really good point is….How open are people to reinvesting in those kinds of pieces is we'll, we'll have to find out. TinaI know, and hopefully this will make people a little more who are curious about secondhand a little more. You know, ready to buy it this year. I think this could really be the year where secondhand starts to take off for people who have been a little unsure about how they can work that into their wardrobes.MaureenWhat advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?TinaOh, I would say because I have been guilty of this, try not to get sucked into trends. You know, I've done it and then I haven't felt great and what I've been wearing and it didn't feel intuitive to me. So I'd really say think of the outfit that you feel are best in your absolute best. And then ask yourself, what do you like about it? And then kind of work your way up from there. And I also really believe in finding inspiration in other people's style as a way to kind of help guide you and what you like and maybe even what you don't like. Really just finding your way through those, those few things can get you started down the path.MaureenThank you so much. And where can listeners find you?TinaSo you can find me at Semi-Sustainable on Substack and Tina Loup on Pinterest.MaureenAwesome, I'll make sure to include links to both of those in the show notes.TinaThank you!OutroThank you to our guest, Tina for joining us today!Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Today's guest is Rachel Margaret, a personal style and beauty YouTuber. She’s known for her humor, great style, and ability to eloquently tackle complex style challenges like, can we experience contentment with our wardrobes? She also loves thrifting, and playing with color. Yep, you’re gonna love her. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. Through conversations with inspiring guests, we explore how to tune into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.MaureenWelcome to the podcast! I have been a really big fan of your YouTube channel, Rachel, Margaret, for a while now. I just heard that you started only a year ago. RachelYeah. January, February of last year. Yeah.MaureenWow. So can you share a little bit about what your channel is about and how you got started?RachelWell, I think I've always wanted to do something like that, at least since I became an adult, I wanted to do something creative. But I'm a perfectionist, and I've always kind of held myself back. And so about a year ago, I just uploaded a Project Pan video, because I knew if I overthought it, I was just not going to do it. So I just uploaded a Project Pan, and I've been kind of trying to just be consistent and do it ever since. And it's slowly evolved over time. Now, I would say that it's mainly about developing a relationship with consumerism and style that flows from a place of contentment and joy.And I really struggled with compulsive shopping in my own life. And I also thought it might just be helpful for me to share my own thoughts for me really, and then also hopefully, for other people too. MaureenYeah, absolutely. All of that really comes through in your videos, this idea of contentment. And I think it's such a positive way to deal with what can be a tricky subject which is like, struggling with overconsumption. To that point, I think it can be kind of hard to discern when we're shopping the right amount, or when we're shopping too much, according to like, maybe our own preferences. For you personally, what did shopping compulsively feel like? How did you know that was something you wanted to address.RachelYeah, it is a fine line to walk. I think it can be really hard to know what health looks like in so many areas of our life. But you know, in shopping with shopping in particular. I think for me, a really good gauge of the healthiness of a particular action is my ability to pick up or put down that action as I please. Or I guess, to use a different analogy, you'd like to turn up or turn down the dial. I guess, just to clarify. I've never been diagnosed with a shopping addiction or compulsive shopping, or anything like that, because I think that the behaviors exist on a spectrum, and I'm sure that there are people who deal with it much more severely than I do. I think for me, a really good gauge of the healthiness of a particular action is my ability to pick up or put down that action as I please. Or to use a different analogy, you'd like to turn up or turn down the dial.Personally, I began to clock my relationship with shopping as compulsive when I would be shopping for some normal reason, and you know I had the dial turned up a little bit and I would recognize, okay, it's enough now, and I would go to turn the dial down, and I would be unable to and it was kind of like I was thinking about this last night as I was falling asleep, but it's kind of like being caught in an undertow in the ocean, in a rip current. Has that ever happened to you?MaureenThankfully, no.RachelIt's happened to me, and it can be really scary. It's such a strong current. And I think what they'll teach you. If you get caught in an undertow is to try and swim direct. Well, don't try actually to swim directly into shore, because if you do, you'll get worn out, the undertow will be stronger than you. Instead, swim parallel to the shore until you get out of the rip current, and then you can swim back. So it's kind of like that for me when I'm in. I call it like a shopping spiral like any episode. I'm able to sense that the action is compulsive or distinct from regular shopping behaviors, because I'm no longer just swimming in the ocean. There's like another force outside of my own logic, my own discernment, my willpower. and it's acting upon me, and it's pulling me out to sea, preventing me or making it much harder for me to do what I would like to do, which is to swim back to shore. So that's kind of what it feels like, and that's what I'm working on, which is just keeping my hand on the dial, and making sure that I'm connected enough with myself to be able to turn the dial up or down as I see fit.MaureenI mean, you have such a beautiful way of speaking. And what a great analogy this idea of the rip current. It's such a great way of thinking about it, because to your point, it's not about putting a label on, or some sort of diagnosis. Because I think that can be, you know, very overwhelming. It can be overly medical. It really takes you out of your own experience in your own, of what you're like, what you're feeling and what you're struggling with. And so almost, I think it's so important to to teach ourselves what our threshold for compulsive behavior looks like, because it may be, you know, compulsive behavior for one person is like potentially much smaller in comparison to someone else. But that doesn't mean that it still doesn't feel out of sync. We all have our own threshold. So I think that's the main reason I wanted to ask you is like, how how can we learn what that feels like for us? And I mean just what a what a great answer. And also some ocean-safe swimming advice. I didn't have that on my Bingo card, but great reminder for the upcoming summer season!At the end of last year, at the end of 2024, you shared a really authentic raw video about only keeping your favorite clothes. And what that taught you. You start that video with, “In the past, I wouldn't have said that I was very self-critical, or that I didn't trust myself, but I have a closet full of other people's opinions and preferences that proves otherwise,” for anyone who hasn't had a chance to watch that video yet, can you share how you came to this realization?RachelYeah, absolutely. I well, I feel like I've come to this realization in the past. I've learned. you know, it was so many of the things that we need to learn in life. We learn it. I learned it then, and then I've had to learn it again and again and again, and each time you learn it it gets deeper and deeper and more settled within you, and it actually starts to become a part of you. So it's not just something that's in your head, but it's something that you really believe and act out of. Just for context, a few months ago, I stumbled across this really beautiful wooden wardrobe, and while I was out thrifting, and it, it led to this whole series of epiphanies and realizations, and one of those. One of those realizations was just a desire for fewer things, I think, or for, like a more curated selection of things, my favorite things. And I've known that on some level I've recognized that desire within myself, but I've struggled to implement it like there's always reasons to have more to keep that shirt or that pair of pants just in case right like. Or I gain weight, or I get invited to this very specific kind of event. You know, it's like you can always find a reason to keep the maybe items, even though they're just so-so. But there was something about seeing that wardrobe that day, and having this vision before me of a life in a closet that included only my favorite things. and it really gave me an impetus, I guess, to like shed that outer layer that I've always held on to and so, as I was decluttering this most recent time, and I guess also in previous declutters, but I could really see the parts of my wardrobe that were not reflective at all of my own preferences and desires, but of someone else's. and this might be embarrassing to admit, but for many items in my closet. I could actually tell you like, Oh, yeah, I purchased that when I was following so and so, or I got that when I was binging her videos, and it just became exceedingly clear that I was in a habit of seeking legitimacy for my style by copying the style of others. And I think that that is very normal. It's really natural, you know, and a lot of ways subconscious like when you're 1st starting out finding your style. It's hard to know where to begin, and and it makes sense that you would start by copying what you see. It's like trying something on like a persona or a silhouette or a color palette. You have to trial and error those things. But I mean, yeah, experimentation is necessary. It's necessary to learn ourselves and develop our preferences. It's just that for me. I think that experimentation began to flow solely from and style opinions of other people. And yeah, I just kind of used that realization to trace the line back and to see what was true. Which is that I didn't seem to trust myself. I didn't consider my style preferences as legitimate enough to be the source of my experimentation and my purchasing, and that's why and how I came to that conclusion.I didn't consider my style preferences as legitimate enough to be the source of my experimentation and my purchasing.MaureenThat’s so powerful. This idea of you know, we're delegitimizing our own preferences. And I say we, because, same like I still relate. I mean, there are so many different people like influencers that I have really fallen deep into a rabbit hole around, and I just want to copy exactly what they have, even when they are saying don't buy what I buy like. Sometimes they would even say that. And I'd be like, I don't care. I'm gonna do it, anyway, you know, or like. it's just to your point. It's human nature. We want to just try stuff on. And you know, especially when we're unsure of what we want. It can be easier to just be like, oh, I'll just try this then. But : I like to say everyone has personal style, like we're not not getting dressed. We're getting dressed. We're putting on clothing. And so when we say we don't have style, we're saying, maybe our style isn't as good as someone else's, or maybe it doesn't resonate with us in some way which either one is fine. But I think, like what I. What resonated with so much about your video is like. we have the opportunity to just say that my taste and my preferences are enough. And that's okay. And I just I never really heard anyone say it that way before. So I just I really want to appreciate and acknowledge like how powerful that was. And I appreciate you, you sharing that.In that video and in videos since, you seem to be glowing in a way that you hadn't before, and I don't necessarily mean physical appearance, but I mean more like like an energetic kind of thing. But I would just love to hear like, an update? How are you feeling now? Are you still feeling that kind of energy that you had at the time like, how was getting dressed feeling? Once you had that realization?RachelIt's feeling really good. It's feeling really good. Actually, recently I went out thrifting for my birthday.MaureenHappy birthday!RachelAnother kind of like mini-wardrobe epiphany while I was shopping, and I just realized how I wanted to be more playful with my clothes, and, you know, enjoy color more, and I've tried to figure out how to do that in the past, but I never really found a way that clicked with me. It always felt a little bit inauthentic. And it's probably because I was trying to do it the way another person does it, you know. But yeah, that's kind of where, I'm at recently is just really feeling a lot of freedom around being creative and using my wardrobe as a source of expression, and also just not taking it too seriously. You know it can be. It can be hard to do. It's funny. I mean, it's just clothing, but it can be. It can feel like you really want to figure it out and and have something that works and have it be all certain. But it's it's just not. It's a lot of like playing.MaureenOh, random question. I'm curious, if you relate to this at all like in the past, I will have bought something or been drawn to something. And then I'm like disgusted with myself. And I'm like, Oh. why did I like that like that's so like weird, or that's so bad…Or even like this like striped shirt that I'm wearing today. Like I like it now. But when I bought it, I was like, Okay, this is really cool, like, I really like how I'm gonna wear this. And then, like a year later, I was really into very Scandi minimalism. And I was like, I can't believe I bought this like pink striped shirt with a gold thread like how gross is that? I mean, I'm just curious like, do you ever have you ever had purchases like that where you're like? I don't know what I was thinking, but you actually like the item.RachelYes, yeah, absolutely. I think it can. Well, it happens for me when I get into like about watching a particular person with a particular style. And suddenly I'm looking at my closet through the filter of that other Yes, style, and I'm like they would never wear that right. Not be good style, right like. And I. And again, it's not as I don't think it's as conscious as that, you know, right. Like we go in our closet and think that exact thing. I think it's very under the surface and yeah, hidden away. But I definitely have experienced that, because then I'll come out of that bout of following that person. And suddenly I like it again. So what’s going on there?MaureenI mean, I hear that just as like one person style rabbit hole is not good for us. It's not. And it's like we gotta we gotta balance out our inspiration sources.So let's talk a little bit about what you do wear. So I'm getting to the point where I'm trying to care more about why people wear stuff instead of what, so that I can have a little bit more detachment. So I would just kind of love to hear. How do you decide what to buy and what to wear.RachelOh, my God, Yes, that's such a good question. I've had so much fun like looking through your notes and answering these questions, because it's like a good mental exercise. I don't really know, you know the answer to that. I didn't know the answer to that going in. So it's just.MaureenIt's not an easy one.RachelLike I mentioned recently, I was thrifting for my birthday, and I went into the dressing room, and I tried on this combination that was just slightly I don't know. Out of my comfort zone like a little funkier. A little more fun, more playful. And it was like something clicked in my brain. I can't explain that and then make a Youtube video about it, though to try to explain it somehow. But yeah, I just started to understand. I just started to have a sense of how I wanted to play with color, how I wanted to add playfulness in a lot of ways. It was the first time in recent memory that I can remember having that inspiration come from myself as opposed to somewhere else. And it has been so wonderful. It's been so fun, it's such a different way of approaching clothing. It was the first time in recent memory that I can remember having that inspiration come from myself as opposed to somewhere else. Just to answer the question. I have criteria you know, that I think about when I'm wanting to add something in. But I think for the current phase, the current iteration of my wardrobe. It definitely has to start with that feeling of joyfulness when I put something on. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm looking for the fanciest clothes, you know, clothes feel amazing for a lot of different reasons. A cozy sweater, you know, isn't necessarily going to make us feel the same reason like feel amazing, for the same reason that a fantastic dress or a power suit. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve a place in our closet if it makes us feel good, you know. So I think, firstly, it's just kind of that checking with myself and seeing if the item has that intangible quality of joyfulness. Like, if it makes me want to sing, then that's a good sign.So I think, firstly, it's just kind of that checking with myself and seeing if the item has that intangible quality of joyfulness. Like, if it makes me want to sing, then that's a good sign.MaureenOh, singing, that's new! Okay. I haven't thought about that! Are you a singer?RachelNo, not a good one, not a good one. More just, if it brings out kind of a silliness, a goofiness, a confidence, a I don't know, a light heartedness. I think that that's what I mean. And I can tell when I put on something, and I feel that way. And then that probably really greatly overlaps with the second thing that I thought about, which is, does it suit me like, does it suit my life? You know I've lived enough life, and I've done enough experimentation, I think, with my wardrobe to have a realistic sense of what works for me and what doesn't. So colors, silhouettes, lifestyle considerations, all of that. But it's got to check all the boxes, you know, and it doesn't. It doesn't mean that I'm never going to go out of my comfort zone. But I think that there are ways that we can play and experiment while still keeping the practicalities in mind. And I find, when I don't keep those practicalities in mind. I regret it, and I never end up wearing the new thing. If it doesn't suit me, then suit my life. So that's a big part about. yeah, just a big factor in deciding what I bring in what I wear.If [a garment] brings out kind of a silliness, a goofiness, a confidence, a I don't know, a light heartedness. And then, lastly, I think it is the question of does it work with what I already have like? When I'm considering adding something in, I try to think of at least 5 different outfits I can create with that new item from the things I already have, and it's got to come really easily, like if I can. If I can come up with three outfits. But then I'm racking my brain to create more. Then it's going to be a great addition, you know, to my wardrobe. It's probably more of a fantasy piece, or like, I like the idea of it. It's 80% of the way there. But there's something something missing. So yeah, it really has to work with what I already have.MaureenYeah, I'd love to go back to kind of one of the points that you made about trying to figure out how you want to play with color. I really relate to this. I've done so much experimentation. I really learned so much of what doesn't work for me, and I got to a place where I was like oh, maybe I've discerned a little too much, and things are starting to feel a little bit like same same, and you know, not getting the kind of versatility that I was hoping for. So can you talk a little bit about how how you balance this idea of knowing your preferences while staying open to things that you haven't before like, what about that experimentation with color today maybe feels different than experimentation with color you've done before?RachelWell, some of it, I do think, is those filters of other people's style, removing those as much as possible, because I I think in the past when I looked at color. I've been like, neon, or, you know, gross like, just just because I think I yeah. Well, black and beige and white are cool. Right? That's what cool girls wear. And you know, I don't know just really letting those ideas infiltrate. And it's just what's trending. It's just, you know, this kind of. And if black and beige and white make you feel incredible, then I think, go for it, you know. But yeah, I think some of it is just trying, if possible, to limit how much consumption of that of that inspiration from other people, or at least balancing it with how much we play with the things that we that we have and what's what's ours, you know.And then the other thing I think like if I'm thinking about adding something in it's maybe balancing, not playing playing enough and not playing too much. So, for example, if I'm going to add a pop of color. Then I'm going to make sure that the shirt is a silhouette that I know. I feel amazing in. For example, making sure that it is like two-thirds of the things that I feel comfortable with, and one-third experimentation, I think that that can help to increase the chances that it will work, or at least increase the chances that you'll actually know if you like that color. Because what if you're trying a shirt and it's not your silhouette you're not going to really be able to discern if it's your color, because the you know, it's getting jumbled. So I just focus on making sure that it's if it was. If this was a white piece I would grab for it, you know, and then I just change one thing about it.MaureenThat's such a good example. And definitely, something I can relate to, as far as like, that two-thirds, one-thirds different is like within a category or an item, you know, either the color needs to be consistent, maybe the neckline or or the silhouette in some way, but just one of those things might change that makes a lot of sense to me, and I've certainly been experiencing that myself with like realizing that all my t-shirts are white, and I'd like to have a navy t-shirt, or I'd like to have a white t-shirt that's gray, but also a turtleneck, and so like to that point. It's like pretty close to what I have, but just like a tweak on it with the color, or that it's a turtleneck instead of a crew neck. So that makes sense to me. And I definitely relate to that idea of, light tweak but still following within, falling within what you already know you like.RachelYeah, and you're kind of like walking out on a limb, you know, when you're experimenting, so you can only do it one step at a time. You don't want to jump all the way to the end of the limb, and you know it's I think it's good to just make those small changes. Though it's hard to do. You know, it's like what everyone says. For instance, when you buy a house, or when you, you know, don't get everything at once. Don't just furnish everything. Wait and take your time, and I think it's the same. There's you can always benefit from going a little slower.MaureenTotally totally. We talked a little bit about how it feels in your body to to try something on it maybe feels a little bit lighter, or you feel I think you said a little bit more like silly or or just kind of like, yeah, that lightness. Are there any other like physical indicators that might tell you that something is for you like specific texture, fit, etc, that help you decide what to buy or not?RachelYeah, I think so. I mean, I think I've noticed this more since having kids like having big having major body changes just makes you more sensitive to the fact that you know I used to be that when I reached into my closet I basically knew how everything was going to fit me, but with each subsequent child my body has shifted, and especially with the 3rd and you know, 6 months after having her, it was like I I just didn't have any certainty that I could reach into my closet and know what I was getting, that it would fit me, that it would make me feel good all of that. So just doing the work there, taking the time to adjust and and not just I don't know, kind of dig my heels in and be like, well, this worked for me before, or, you know, taking the time to care for myself, my new body. And I think the main thing I can think of in terms of style is just having something that's high waisted enough. I'm really tall and and something. There's something about having a rise that's high enough that hits me at the small of my waist. And for me, that's like it's 12 inches plus for the rise. Or it is not hitting me at the time I waste, and you know it's a small detail I was about to say. It's a silly detail. It's not silly, it's small, but it makes a big difference in how I feel, and so I don't know just paying attention to the little preferences, and and I don't know kind of like we're talking about that legitimacy of like nothing. It's not. It's not small. If you don't like the texture of that shirt. If you don't like the way that pattern is, let it count, let it matter. Let it. You're the one who has to wear the clothes. So it matters, and it counts.MaureenYeah. Two thoughts come to mind with that one being, I think, like having children is such a good example of like extreme body change. And I just want to say for anyone that's listening like like me, that hasn't had kids, but is in like a female body and has experienced a lot of change, or even really anybody. And he's experienced a lot of change. I just want to acknowledge that the human body is not stagnant, and it's almost like we're we're bringing this, speaking from my own perspective and kind of what I heard from you, too. It's like there are phases where we think that we know what we're getting. And then, when something doesn't fit the way that it used to, it feels like it's wrong, and it's our fault. I don't know. You didn't say that specifically, but that's certainly how I would feel is like, oh, I didn't have a baby like, why is my body changing in this way? And then I felt a lot of shame around that. And so I just want to acknowledge like that's such a great example. And also like we can have really big body changes that are not connected to like creating life, just for anyone that relates to that.RachelWell, to be honest, my, I haven't gained…I didn't gain much weight in my pregnancies. All of my body change would happen in the postpartum dealing with the emotional, the emotional toll of having a baby. It was a hundred percent, something that I could very easily feel shameful about, because it was my, you know, choices around food, my choices around movement. My, you know, whatever it might be. it wasn't necessarily because of the hormones or something. So I totally agree that it can happen for a hundred different reasons. Our bodies are shifting all of the time, and your body always deserves care. Your clothes are meant to, you know fit you, and not the other way around. MaureenI think, as a collective. We're we're coming around to that idea finally, finally. And I love it. I love it. Let's talk about your style evolution. Have you gone through any memorable style phases?RachelI definitely think my style has evolved. Thank goodness, but I think the main thing I notice when I look back on old pictures is that I was never really a risk taker, with my style like I wouldn't say that I ever had a definable aesthetic. For example, I was into Emo and Indie bands in High school. But I didn't have a wardrobe to match that, you know. I typically fall on the spectrum of I love to ideate and dream, but I've struggled with how to bring my thoughts out of my head and into reality. So probably the biggest way that my style has evolved is that I'm actually taking the vision that I have in my head and acting on it. And I'm getting more and more comfortable with expressing in that way, taking style slightly less seriously. Maybe, like things don't have to be perfect. It's supposed to be fun. And it's okay to go out on a limb. It's okay to trust your preferences. And it's equally okay to walk back from a limb that you were out on and say, you know, that wasn't for me. So maybe I'm just getting more comfortable, I think, with the style as a form of expression, and it's taken me a long time to get there.MaureenOne of the things I just heard you say is you felt that there was some sort of gap between, how you were hoping that you were dressing, and how things what you actually wore. Could you maybe speak a little bit more about that? I want to understand that better.RachelYeah, I think that there was a few things going on. Probably I think one of it is one of the things is perfectionism. Thinking that I had to have it all worked out in my head before I stepped out and did the thing. Whether it was wearing the outfit starting the YouTube channel, doing the you know, whatever it is, always feeling like, I needed to be more prepared and never feeling prepared enough to actually start and to express, and I think that there's some fear with that as well like fear of getting it wrong. Fear of being perceived. Perfectionism is just a type of fear. I think that that was probably a big factor, and always really admiring the people who did make bold choices and had something I don't know had something to say like they had a point of view. I think I was really stuck for a long time in just being everything to everybody, kind of general, and nothing very specific and really confusing… I don't know how I would describe it as confusing that with love like that, that's what's most loving to the people around me is to be something kind of general.And actually, I think that there's a lot of joy. And yeah, that it's really very loving to actually be yourself and to be honest, and to express, because you're actually trusting the people around you with Yeah, you're you're not. If you're not being vulnerable. If you're not showing yourself, then, I don't know you're not giving anyone anything of value be something specific, I think, is what I would say.MaureenYou just said so much great stuff in there, I'm like, how do I even like? How do I even go from here like I mean, I so relate to the perfectionism. And you know, maybe I heard a little bit of people pleasing.RachelFor sure.MaureenI don't know if you relate to this, but I'll just say, from my experience, like, growing up Evangelical Christian in the Bay Area, which is like such an oxymoron. But like I grew up Southern Baptist, and so much of the culture was around like being humble and not really trying to like. Take up too much space. Right? It's like, if you are you don't want to be too much. You don't want to take up too much space like almost this feeling of you need to make yourself smaller so that other people can be bigger, and that's what like humbleness or like love looks like. And I just think that certainly related to how I felt around fashion is like. On this one hand I wanted to be like, really this Fashion girl, and very like expressive. But, on the other hand, I had this part of me that was like. But don't take up too too much space like you should be smaller and I don't know. I just felt like that. Whole like economy was just so confusing. It's like, where do I fit with all this? And I think, like, just for myself, I've kind of landed at this middle place, which is like, I'm not super into pattern stripes, notwithstanding. And I really like to have really funky, like silhouette and shape, and just being more expressive in that way. So there's a little bit of like that quiet and a little bit of that loud but I don't know. I just. I kind of heard, like some nugget of that like shrinking or playing small. I don't know if any of that relates.RachelYeah, well, I I grew up as a Christian as well, and I am currently a Christian. But I do think a hundred percent that it can get confusing. It can get really confusing this message of like make sure that you're loving, you know. And and I don't know. It just gets really bogged down with a lot of… I believe, like misconception about what that means. Yes, you know, and what is actually loving. What does love look like? And for me it was really my relationship with God that freed me from that, because I felt like I had to be God like I had to love all these people really, really well, and part of that was really playing small. But actually, I don't have to do that. You know, I can just be myself. And that has been yeah, just so incredibly freeing across the board. And I do feel like style is one of those areas where I get this release, you know, to just again. Just the joyfulness, the be joyful, be free, take up space, be something specific, like all of that. I don't know. Yeah, it's something I feel like. God has told me, you know, and. And it's very saddens me. I think that it's gotten so mixed up or can be.MaureenYeah, and to be clear, like, I think what I was sharing wasn't necessarily what I would understand from God, you know, like so much of what I was experiencing was the culture around God and the culture around Jesus, and I think that you can have, a Christian faith that is like very loving and accepting. And you can also have a Christian faith that is really structured and controlling. And I think it's really about acknowledging that that religion and that experience of the religion is very specific and can be what you make it, and the community that you seek out around it. And I think just some of the things that I picked up again were more cultural than like, maybe. So, I just wanted to clarify, an observation, I would say.RachelFor sure, for sure. I think it is very easy for people to move from a place of fear and control. And I yeah, I see that a lot in Christian culture as well.MaureenAnd it happens outside Christian culture, too.RachelSure outside of Christian culture, too. So it's… It's people.MaureenIt's people.RachelYeah, and really trying to move from love as much as possible. It makes a big difference.Maureen Yeah, yeah, totally. Oh, I remembered what I was going to say earlier, which is, basically, you were talking about the rise on your jeans. This is my PSA: If you don't have a clothing like measure tape, get one to anyone listening, get a measuring tape, and then, if you're shopping online like secondhand, or if you're going to a secondhand store, get out that tape measure and see, will this fit me the way that I want it to?RachelDo you know the do you know the trick about putting the waist, the waist of the pants around your neck?MaureenI haven't done it, but I have heard it. Does it work?RachelDoes that mean that our necks are half the size of our waist?MaureenThat's kind of what I'm hearing. That's my takeaway.RachelKind of weird, but it works. If you put, if you put it around your neck and it fits comfortably, then it will fit your waist.MaureenI should try that with the jeans that I have, and see if it works.RachelYeah, do a little test.MaureenSo we're recording this towards the start of 2025. Only 2 months in. But, anyway, do you have any style or personal goals that you're hoping to work towards this year?RachelYeah, I mean, I think it connects a little bit with what I've already shared. But I'm excited to be more playful. with my closet this year, and to go out on more limbs. And again, I think, to to not take getting dressed too seriously, and maybe at the same time to take myself more seriously.MaureenOh!RachelYou know, have more fun with clothing. Take more risks, because that's a desire that I find within myself. Like to do that as much as possible, and as much as possible to give legitimacy to my preferences and desires in the area of style. And yeah, I'm just looking forward to stretching like the creative muscles and having fun with my clothing this year.MaureenWow! Are there any like specific things that you're drawn towards, that? You want to try this year? Or is it more just like a general openness to see what happens.RachelI love putting together two things that are unexpected. Like, I love interesting color combinations. I love playing with textures and playing like combining styles in a way that isn't maybe an automatic reach, an automatic go to. So I think I'm looking forward to that, just combining things in a way that I wouldn't necessarily normally do. But I don't know. Kind of do that, and then see what happens. See what I can create, see what happens. Maybe do some makeup, not makeup dress up playtime in my closet. And I don't know. Yeah, I think I think interesting combinations, unexpected combinations is something that I'm really drawn to, and something that I want to explore. And maybe also jewelry. And I love fun, jewelry, and earrings especially. I never do anything with my hair. I never do anything with my hair, and I think that hair can be a really big part of style and kind of overlooked or just thought of last. And so maybe playing with my hair more. Yeah, those are some things.MaureenCool, cool. Well, if you feel like sharing any of that on your YouTube channel, I will happily, happily follow along. So on that note. Where can listeners find you?RachelThey can find me at Rachel Margaret. That's the name of my YouTube channel. And I'm not on any other social medias, because it’s vicious.MaureenYeah, yeah, I will make sure to include the link to that in the show notes.RachelAwesome. Can I answer the question about the..?MaureenYes, I don't know why I'm missing this question! I did this yesterday, too. I'm so sorry. I just enjoying our conversation so much, I’m trying not to look at my notes too much. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?RachelDon't overthink it. And I say that as someone who has definitely overthought it overthinks it all the time. But you know what you like. You know what you like on some level, you do, you? Really, you know, and of course I think you might know more in the future. Right? That tends to be how it goes. But, you have to work with the information that you have right now, and I just think, trust your intuition when you're getting dressed you can't mess it up. There's always another chance to get dressed tomorrow. And you're going to learn so much along the way like this is an as you go, type of thing, so you have to learn it as you go. Nobody's born with good personal style. You have to learn it as you go. The trial and error of it all is necessary. So, try new things. Trust yourself, and keep getting dressed.MaureenIncredible, incredible! I love it. It's so true, it's so true. Trust yourself.RachelSo true. Just get there.MaureenYeah, trust yourself. Get dressed. See what happens. Awesome. Well, thank you for reminding me, because I love that question [about advice].RachelYeah, I love it, too. I just, I really wanted to share. I was like, what would I want to tell my younger self?MaureenOh, yes, yes, and also, maybe it's something you have to learn over and over again.RachelOh, for sure.MaureenWell, as we said, I'll I'll include a link to your YouTube channel on the show notes for anyone that wants to follow along and thank you again for for joining the podcast today, I really appreciate it.RachelYeah, it was so fun to talk to you, Maureen.OutroThank you to our guest, Rachel Margaret, for joining us today.Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.Thanks and see you next week! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Artist, writer and Caribbean-Colombian woman, Laura De Valencia Kirk joins me for today’s episode. I so enjoyed talking with her; she’s exactly as insightful and fascinating in real-life as you’d expect from her writing. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.MaureenYou're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition, so that we can dress authentically and live fully.Today's guest is the writer of La Deeply Shallow, a Substack newsletter that somehow manages to be both philosophical and playful, ultimately acting as an open invitation to play with fashion and take from fashion what you wish and leave the rest. You've seen her styling sweatpants like never before, artfully weaving social commentary into posts ostensibly about clothing, and generally being an editorial queen. Welcome to the show, Laura De Valencia Kirk.LauraThank you for having me. I'm very honored to be here.MaureenI'm so excited to hear more from you. So, as I already mentioned, your newsletter, La Deeply Shallow, is so beautiful. For anyone who hasn't read your work yet, would you introduce the concept and your approach to writing about fashion and personal style?LauraYeah. So when I created La Deeply Shallow when I started it, it was actually as as a Substack. It started a long time ago, about 5 years ago. But then I kind of abandoned it because I wasn't really sure where it was going, and it wasn't really about fashion. It was more about what I was researching as part of my MFA, as an artist. And then last year I just had this impulse to come back to it and write, and I think there was a lot of thoughts that were kind of condensing, and they finally found like an avenue, and that was La Deeply Shallow. In La Deeply Shallow, I bring to the surface the the importance of fashion which has historically been considered as a feminine topic, and hence not important, you know, as usual. So I honor fashion. I try to demonstrate how transcendental it can be, not only for showing who we are, but also to construct ourselves in the process of getting dressed, which I think it's the core or the most important aspect of it, and my approach is very intuitive. I write every week. I tend not to have things in storage, for, you know, several weeks ahead, which I probably should, because it would be, it would make my less anxious, but it also keeps me on my toes, and writing every week helps me be attuned to the conversation. What's going on, and also how clothes feel in my body. So, it kind of helps me be more present. That's the whole concept. And I think I hope that that's being transmitted and people feel it, and it helps them also be more attuned to to their own act of getting dressed and daily.MaureenYeah, I mean to your hopes—absolutely. There's something kind of almost magical about the way that you write… It's so like, deep and complex, but somehow effortless at the same time, which, of course, I don't mean that you're not spending time and effort on it, but just as a reader, it's so easy to engage with. I just feel this almost like kind of lightness on very complicated topics, and specifically the way that you incorporate social and political commentary into your pieces. I mean, it's just very like it's kind of full circle to hear that when you started the column, it wasn't even about fashion at all, and I can see that, it’s about fashion, but it's about so much more. How do you decide when to incorporate this kind of commentary versus just play with with clothing?LauraWell, I think it's all woven into who I am, because I think fashion is not just about the clothes is all kinds of things, and it probably has something to do with the fact that I have multiple interests. And I listen to all kinds of political discourse from all sides of the spectrum, philosophy, lectures podcasts all while I scroll on The Real Real! It's something I do. And I don't know if it's probably a good mental image of how my mind works and how I am wired, and I think most of us are multidisciplinary. We have lived so many lives, we are multifaceted, we, we contain multitudes. And, so, I think that that is just going to transpire in how I write. There's another aspect of it that simplicity or that lightness that you talk about. I think it's from the fact that I'm always translating, because I'm always, I tend to think in Spanish, and then I translate. So I think there's in that translation. I'm trying to understand my thoughts. But I'm also trying to find a way to be legible in a different language, and I think that also makes me be a little bit more. Just clear. I guess the fact that my language is not as sophisticated in English, also makes it be a little bit more clear.MaureenI highly doubt that. [Editors note: I meant that I think her work in English is so sophisticated!]LauraI don't know. Maybe that I would love to, you know, to figure out what it is. But I I make a big effort to make myself legible. And it's immigrant experience, and of constantly speaking in a different language….And then, yeah, there's always political commentary, and I don't try to do it. I've always made an effort not to be an activist. I respect activists, and I respect what they do. But I think ever since I became an artist, I understood that I wanted to connect more than lecture or impose a point of view, because I am in a point of my life where I'm trying to understand a lot of things. And I'm trying to think with people and think out loud. And I think when I adopt an activist voice, or when people adopt activist voices, there's kind of like a moral superiority or virtue signaling that it's kind of off-putting and prevents that connection that I'm trying to, that I'm trying to create with my audience.MaureenIncredibly well said. And I think again, it's really coming across, you know. I feel that that I'm able to engage with your work. You're allowing for a conversation. And, to your point, a lot of think pieces about slow fashion or or activism generally kind of come in with authority. As you know, ‘this is the way it is’, and ‘this is the way we should be thinking.’ And I think what you do so expertly is that you show that process, and you talk about how you got to where you are, and with all the complexity, and you make space for people to agree or disagree with you and have a different experience. And I think that's part of what's so magical about your writing is that I feel like you're bringing people closer rather than pushing them away. To your point, I almost think it's more successful in the way that it's a conversation. It's about connecting rather than being right. It's great to hear that's a strategic thing. It wasn't just necessarily something that happened. But it's a choice that you're making. And it's really happening.LauraYeah, I mean, and it's I think it's also how I conduct myself. I try. As I said before, I try to listen to different points of view on the same issue, and and try to understand where people are coming from. And, I sometimes I may not agree with with a certain side of the spectrum. I mean, that's fine. We're all trying to find the truth, but I don't think I have the revealed truth yet. So that's why I feel like I am still in that exploration. It's not that I don't assume positions. I think I have certain positions, but I don't think that my ideas and my positions are my identity. I'm always trying to be open to learning new things and understand where people are coming from, and and I'm glad that that comes across, as as you say.MaureenDefinitely, I think that's why so many people read your posts every week! Switching a little bit into your personal style…. I'm becoming more interested in the why behind how people dress rather than what we're wearing. In broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy or wear, or what not, to buy or wear?LauraYeah, I was thinking about this. This was a great question, and I'm glad that you asked me. I think I'm 100% committed to proportions. I can see some things that I adore in the store online, whatever. And but if the proportions do not work for me, I tend not to wear it in a non aesthetic dimension. I have become sharper at questioning why I like something I grew up in in a very small town with a lot of class bias. And so that class bias was easily reflected in how people dressed. And, it's very tacit. It's not talked about. But, you kind of absorb all that bias and all this, all the signals and and the signs and and the hidden messages that are part of the clothes, and and it takes time, and for me, moving to a different country to realize how much I wasn't questioning where my preference for certain items. What's coming from that bias? And, it's kind of like a little bit of deconstructing to construct again, and to kind of like. Try to mold yourself to who you really are.And and and yeah, so I think to your question, how do I decide what I wear? What I don't wear? There's definitely an aesthetic dimension. As I said, proportions to me are key. And then also a more non-aesthetic, more personal questioning of Where why do I look this? Why do I like this? And why don't I like it? Is it because something that was instilled in me, or is it because I generally do not do not find it appealing?MaureenHmm, hmm. Yeah, that's such a great question. And I think almost a lifetime question is, how do we decide why we like what we like?Are there any like specific examples that come to your mind as far as like maybe something that you used to like that once you kind of drilled into it, you realized it doesn't resonate as much now, or vice versa, something that you used to not really appreciate. But now over time, you appreciate more?LauraThere was a post where I talked about the ruffles, and this kind of very tropical Caribbean chic dresses, with florals and ruffles, and all these things, and at the moment, and back in 2014, I really liked them, and I wore them, and then I kind of rejected them. I felt like they were not part of me. Why was I wearing this? I am more minimal. I've always tend to be to less, to be more masculine and what I find sexy.But then I realized that there was a lot of bias in in the florals, they are considering where I come from. It's like something, too. Floral is too ‘out there,’ ‘too much,’ too…Just not very elegant. I started peeling the onion on ‘what is elegance? What is chicness? And why, when I like the florals? Why did I like them in 2014. And why didn't I like them before or after? And then I realized that I like the florals and the ruffles and all of this style of dressing, because it was it was being imposed by designers that were regarded as exclusive that were in vogue. And so I was like, oh, so florals are good when they are proposed by certain designers, but are not good. When I see someone on the street in Barranquilla wearing them.So that was that was a kind of like a revealing moment for me. And there are so many other examples. The cork platforms, which are a staple in my hometown. The jeans without pockets, on the back. Very stable staple in Colombia. Sweatpants. Huge example. Oh, because I'm going to appear lazy, or that I gave up? What is that coming from? Oh, Chanel designer said it. Oh, but is he right? Is there a racial component to that statement? Is there a class component to that statement? So there's a lot of things that I believed were mine that were not mine, and I'm still in the process to peel the onion. It's an ongoing journey.MaureenI love, that “there were a lot of things that were mine that were not mine.” I love the empowerment that I hear, which is like we try on different identities. We try on different aesthetics. We take in all these influences, and you know what I just heard in that is, we can take those things off, too. And we can say, what of those things that I've tried out or internalized, how can I let go of those? What a lesson! What a lesson! And it doesn't just apply to clothing as we've been talking about. It applies to so many different kind of perspectives. I don't know if you're aware of this. I just thought of this example like the Roman, like statues and and columns. And what's the word like? Busts used to be like super colorfully painted. Did you know about this?LauraYes! Great book called Chromophobia. I don't know if you you heard of it. I recommend it because that one also opened my eyes a lot to color. It's pretty much how this whole minimalistic movement instilled in us the idea that neutral colors and muted palettes and subdued silhouettes were elegant, and whatever was colorful was not. And there's a huge, bias instilled in that statement. The book Chromophobia. I think it's David Bachelor. He wrote it, and he talked about Le Corbusier. And a lot of of these designers, that kind of like created these this paradigm in a way. But yeah, the Roman statues is a great example. We find them beautiful and elegant, and they're white, but they they were not white, they they used to be colorful, and the eyes had color, that's where it comes from!MaureenMy personal style is a bit of a counterpoint, right? One of the things that I hear from you is that we're interrogating where our influences come from, but we're not inherently rejecting them. We're using discernment. And so, my personal aesthetic is on the somewhat more minimal side. Part of that also has to do with what colors actually look best on my body, and when I wear bright colors you don't see me, [my face] disappears. And so that's totally fine, like, I'm neutral about that. It's fine, but I think if I did have a different complexion, if I had like more extreme features, maybe my aesthetic would be different. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with having an aesthetic that that makes sense with my body, and allows my face to be seen as opposed to just my clothing.LauraAnd I think that's where the extreme discourse tries to, like I want to say, tell you what to do. Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal. And and I ask myself these questions, and I say, Well, there's something in my history that determined this, which is my Catholic upbringing, and how I saw my mom getting dressed. Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal?My mom was always dressed in pants and a bottom down shirt to go to the office, and she dressed differently than all the women in Barranquilla, who dressed like Sofia Vergara, and and Shakira, and they were always full of makeup. So, I grew up with this model with, you know, my mom. And, so I try to trace where my taste for this kind of clothes came from. I interrogated it, but I feel like when people tell me you should wear more color. I have the certainty that it's my choice to dress. The way I dress is not coming from that class bias or that color, or that it's coming from my history, from my mom, from my heritage, from an influence I had as a child.And there's another thing that it's the this expectations that Latin women need to dress certain way, or they need to look certain way, or you don't dress Latin enough. Well, what does that [look like]? What what is that? What is what is Colombian aesthetic? What is Latin aesthetic? Is it something you saw on the TV? Is it that you created from seeing Salama Hayek in movies? Because it's not a monolith. Being a Latin woman is so many things, including what I am choosing to do. So it's important to question where our choices are coming from. But when we make peace with those answers. We don't need to try to change them, just to appease certain discourses, such as the class or the race discourse. Because in your case you don't like coloring you, and it doesn't mean you're racist or classist, or that you're trying to, I don't know. Assert your whiteness. It's just simply that you don't like how you look on color. And that's totally okay. It's an aesthetic choice. And we are free to make those aesthetic choices. So it's complex.MaureenI mean, this is so validating, and I wasn't going into this expecting that. But you know, at the end of the day, I think sometimes when we are interested in fashion, we make fashion mean so much, and it does. It means a lot. But it doesn't mean everything. And, there's a two-dimensionality to sharing images of our clothing online. And what we're wearing. But when we're out in the world like that's where we show how we respect other people. That's where we show that we aren't trying to assert our whiteness. Or, maybe that we dress a certain way that would say otherwise, but when we act out in the world we are like. It's just one aspect of this, like three-dimensional personality. And, whatever I try to write, and I certainly see it in your writing is this this nuance and multiplicity and dimensionality? So I resonate with that so much.LauraThat's so profound way you just said, Yeah, clothes are. Because I started saying, I want to talk about how fashion is transcendental and important and valuable, but it's also not sometimes. Well, it's also not. It's also fun and play, and there's room for that. It's not the cure for cancer. It's also. But when I'm in the worst moments I getting dressed is what makes me keep going. You know, it can have very powerful effect on the Psyche, but at the same time we need to recognize that it's not everything about a person. As you say, we act in the world, and that's also part of who we are. It's not just what we're wearing.MaureenOh, I feel like we could talk about that for a lifetime. Let's keep writing!Going back to how you decide what to wear, how does body awareness influence the way you dress? Are there specific textures, fits, or styles? I know you talked about proportion. So maybe talking about that in a little bit more detail, or anything else [around] how you want to feel in your clothes.LauraOkay, so, I think I have always leaned or oversized silhouettes, as I mentioned. And I I do recognize that I used to dress in oversized clothes to kind of like conceal certain parts of my body I didn't like. But, now that I am more comfortable with how my body looks. I still dress pretty oversized, but it's not to conceal my body necessarily, but I see it more as an act of sculpting my body, and I think there's immense freedom in sculpting the body through fabric, you know. Play with shapes, elongate, shorten, make the the make the the shoulders wider. I mean all those tricks. It’s almost like like a like a ceramicist playing with clay. You know it's it's not necessarily a quest for flattering. It's more like an intuitive activity that I enjoy a lot. For example, right now, I was thinking that I really love everything that has like that drape like the silk. But I also love having the the scuba material that makes me, that is just static. I mean, I love playing with that kind of thing, too, because it those are different tools to kind of like sculpt and create a cocoon or or there's a writer, she used to be Man Repeller, she created this system of shapes, the palm tree, and and I love how it's not the fruit system from, you know the nineties. It's just like how you can dress to like to highlight certain parts of your body, and it's not for ‘flattering’. I repeat, it's just more like a sculpting exercise! And I really enjoy that as an artist I enjoy it. I know it sounds cliche, but I do see the body as a canvas.[Editor’s note: Laura is referring to fellow Substack writer, Elizabeth Cardinal Tamkin’s Silhouette System™ and I am now DEEP in this philosophy.)MaureenI don't think it's cliche at all, actually. And I think, it's just true, if that's how you approach getting dressed. If that's authentic to you, that’s it…that's the whole thing. And I think that's so cool. I'm certainly been on a journey myself where I used to really dress for like ‘flattering’ and, my priority was to kind of dress in a way that was like made me a sexual being for other people's like understanding of me. I'm really playing now with, the female gaze, and all I keep thinking about is the types of silhouettes that I want to wear now are so different. And and I love them, and I would not have worn them in the past. I love making space for that like change, and that transition, and being open to changing my mind and being open to things that I thought weren't for me. And it's just really fun. To your point, like, I just got this sweater vest. I cannot stop talking about it. I'm so sorry for everyone, but it's got like kind of a nice. It like makes my shoulders look kind of broad in a great way, and then it like kind of cuts in.So it just creates like such a cool shape over whatever I put it on with, and like to some degree. Yes, I'm still accentuating some degree of like hourglass, which is fine like I don't care. That's fine, but in so many other ways it's very much not for the male gaze. And so it's just kind of like this wonderful balance of the two, where it's a preferred silhouette, but also kind of more eccentric.LauraThat was when you talk about the shoulders, I feel like shoulder pads to me are huge, and I hate when they go out of style. I still wear them even when they're out of style, because I think they're so powerful in that interplay of shape. So yeah, those are, those are great tools and resources in in my toolbox.MaureenI'm curious what you think about trends just really quickly…I'm ‘pro’ trend. I think we wouldn't be able to make progress. We wouldn't be open to changing our minds about things. And I think I see a lot of discourse about like ‘trends are bad. It's just marketing.’ And it's like, Okay, yes. But also…Can we see the beauty and trends? I don't know. I think one of the hardest things about like when a shoulder pad goes out of style isn't necessarily that they're not cool anymore, but it can be harder to find them. What do you think about trends generally?LauraI'm with you, I think trends are a great opportunity to get out of our comfort zone to explore. I have delved into trends, and some of them. It's not that I regret them, but I just realized that they don't fit my lifestyle, or I'm not reaching for for them. Others really stick with me and stay forever like shoulder pads. I mean, I started wearing shoulder pads when Dries Van Noten did this collection, like 10 years ago, and he showed the shoulder pads with a striped shirt, and I recreated it. I didn't buy it. I took a shirt. I cut it, and I put shoulder pads, and I'm like, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is great!’ like in terms of proportions. It creates like this super cool thing that I never would have….I thought it was so 80s, and I discovered something that that's that stick with me. And I think trends are just as I say, a good avenue to discover new things, to get out of our comfort zone, to question or aesthetic. Where is it coming from? And I I think there are like low stakes ways to try trends, and we don't need to jump on all of them. But if you do, that's fine, too. Where you are in life, in the twenties, you should really try trends. I mean, you should really try everything. Your thirties, maybe you start figuring out, okay, this trend worked for me. What was it that I liked about the trend? Was it the silhouette? Was it how practical it was? And then in your forties you kind of start figuring it out, and you have more discernment. You can tell, okay, this trend is really not going to work for me, but you know I try the the jelly shoe. And I loved it. I think it's so fun. It's just ironic, and I live in Florida. So it's not very ironic for me, but I still make it ironic, how I pair them. And then there's some other trends, like I tried leopard. And I like it when I wear it. But I don't reach for it that often as I would like, and I don't know what it is. I mean it's it's not. It could be a bias. Oh, I think it's too much, and it's not something I should wear to pick up my kids. Why, what like question? You know, what’s that story?But yeah, I think trends are fine. Yes, I do not agree with certain influencers pushing trends. In a way that it's hidden, like. If you're if you're gonna tell me to wear this. I also want you to tell me that you have a partnership with the brand. I want you to tell me that you invested in the company that produces the item that you're trying to sell as the new thing. I think that kind of transparency I miss sometimes. But you know, it's not against the trend. It's against the way marketing is conducted, right?MaureenAnd not all trends were necessarily created, equally like some trends are from a brand. But you could also say that some trends probably come from individual people, individual designers. People in high fashion world that are putting things out there and getting people thinking about things in new ways. LauraThey are creative people. They're designers. And it's their job to think in the future and think about. I mean, it's it's kind of like a way of appreciating their effort to to innovate. So imagine if we think about if we don't care about trends, then I don't think there would be that incentive to, to innovate and to think differently, and and to try and create new things. So as an artist, I think it would be a little bit contradictory for me to not appreciate trends, and what's new.MaureenVery fair point. So we talked a little bit about your style evolution with, you know, the 2014 liking florals and then moving away from that. But are there any like memorable phases that you've gone through with your style.LauraThink my style has remained pretty consistent. I with, you know, deviations as usual. I think my favorite stage. I think it's my forties, for sure. I think it all comes with the confidence of age, and just not caring so much, but also caring a lot just like you have a little bit more information.MaureenYeah, more information, I agree with that. What personal or style goals are you working towards this year, if any?LauraI think my main goals was is to continue tracking my purchases, and not for self-flagellation, not to feel guilty. It's really to see what I wear, and what was worth spending money on. To me the only way for me to really see what I need. What if there's a gap in my closet is to not shop. Wearing my clothes. Then I can start identifying. Oh, I've been wearing this sweater for all this time, and maybe I need a new sweater because this one is not doing what I wanted to do, because I want a V-neck instead of, you know things like that. But you only identify those needs when you actually wear your clothes versus just like getting new things and getting distracted with new things and not wearing what you already have. So I'm shopping. I wouldn't say I'm gonna low-buy. I mean, I'm still shopping, but I'm a lot more aware of of what I have in my closet, how to style it different ways to style the same things for different occasions. The whole idea of the bi-furcated closet, how to apply it in my daily life?And also, I'm saving money because we have projects at home that we want to do. We want to remodel our kitchen. We want to remodel our bathroom, and also I have two daughters, and they also require a lot of clothes like the grow, the bigger they get the more they they require. So it's it's a new expense kind of like versus when they were toddlers. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, if I buy this $500 purse than my daughters cannot get this. So it's kind of like a trade off. So it's both, for you know the economy of my house. And also just be more assertive with with my purchases.MaureenI love that idea of being assertive with purchases. That's such a great way of talking about it. And I'm gonna say that, too!Friend of the podcast, Emily Grady Dodge. She just put up a post was a good reminder about this book I'm Going to Teach You How to Be Rich, and I heard an interview with the author years ago, and then promptly forgot about it. Basically it's this idea of, if you spend your money on the things that you care about, and don't spend your money on the things you don't care about, you can live a more rich fulfilling life. It's not about learning how to be a millionaire. It's about learning how to live life richly and fully, and the things that you care about or cared about. And so I think when someone does do a low buy or no buy, or is paying attention to what they're spending their money on when it comes to getting dressed. That's part of this whole effort to live fully and and feel, you know. That's such a great way to say it.LauraTrade-offs. Resources are not unlimited.MaureenYes, trade-offs!So, we're coming towards the end. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?LauraI would say, documenting your outfits. Not for performance, not necessarily to look good or to post it on Instagram, but just to keep track, just to have like that visual memory, and and to to remember what was it that made you comfortable? So that from a logistics standpoint. And then, get interested in things that are not fashion. I think that really enriches your approach to fashion, and that's something that I learned as an artist that when you focus on artists, on on art, only your art could be great, obviously. But when you start focusing on different things. And it could be doesn't have to be anything, you know, like politics or philosophy. It could be gardening. It could be like just trying to inject your your creative endeavors with knowledge from other areas of life, I think, makes it a lot more enriching and and fulfilling. So just, more layered. So it's not just layers of clothes, but also layers of knowledge and and just interest. I think it just makes it a lot more interesting.MaureenWell, this was so fun. Where can listeners find you?LauraI’m on Instagram, and Substack. And, if you're interested in seeing my artwork, which is like another aspect, I'm at Laudadevalencia.com.MaureenI'm definitely gonna check out your artwork. I don't think I've seen it before, so, I'm excited to look at that. Well, thank you so much. This was so fun!LauraThank you, and I am very, very grateful for this opportunity. And, as I said, these were great questions that I might consider on my own writing.MaureenI cannot wait to to read.LauraThank you.OutroThank you to our guest, Laura De Valencia Kirk, for joining us today. Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.Thanks and see you next week! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Today's guest is Corinne Fay from Substack newsletter, Big Undies. Corinne is also the co-host of the Indulgence Gospel with Virginia Sole-Smith, and the creator of SellTradePlus. We have a chat about her love of denim shirts, creating community online, and the importance of letting go of perfectionism so we can have fun with clothing.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. Through conversations with inspiring guests, we explore how to tune into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Corinne Fay from Substack newsletter, Big Undies. Corinne is also the co-host of the Indulgence Gospel with Virginia Sole-Smith, and the creator of SellTradePlus. Corinne, welcome to the show. Corinne: Thanks, I'm really excited to be here.Maureen: Can you tell us a little bit about SellTrade Plus specifically and the gap that you are hoping to address by starting that platform? Corinne: Yeah, so I started SellTradePlus in, I think it was 2018, a long time ago now. And I was really addicted to a few different resale accounts on Instagram. But I was like, I was feeling like I was seeing... Dozens if not hundreds of posts for stuff that wasn't in my size for every one that was in my size. And I also felt like there were certain things that like I needed to be able to buy clothes in that way, such as like garment measurements that weren't always there. And I was also thinking, like, if I went to a thrift store and I were shopping for myself, I would just go, I would walk in the door, I would go straight to the section that was my size. So I was just like, why not have a resale account that's just plus size? So we can kind of narrow in a little bit. Maureen: And the accounts that you were talking about, were those on social media? Corinne: Yeah, I was looking at Noihsaf, which used to be strictly Instagram. And, um, there was also, I think there were actually a couple, like, sell/trade slow fashion accounts. Like, I know there was one specifically for Elizabeth Suzanne and maybe a couple others. I was just going to say I was like. I really liked those spaces and I liked the community, but I just kind of felt like I could maybe narrow down a little bit. Maureen: I wanted to start our conversation today with that topic because I think it can be really hard to understand or explain for someone who isn't familiar with being excluded by secondhand shopping or availability of your size. I think it can be really hard to understand like just how real that issue is and I just wanted to really set the stage. Anyone can struggle with their body image and there's like no hierarchy of who can experience that. But when it comes to actually being able to find the clothing that you want to wear, there are some very real challenges if you live in a larger body. And I was just wondering if you could like share any of your experience with that and, and maybe on the optimistic side, you know, have you been able to set out or have you been able to accomplish any of the goals that you set out to with that platform, being able to, uh, create more of that community that you're looking for?Corinne: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest and best part of SellTradePlus for me has been the community aspect. Like, I feel like there are so many people that I'm just, like, friends with now, you know? I mean, as... As much as you can be with people from the internet, but um, yeah, and I have, I've also, like, met people in real life through SellTradePlus. Like, I have a little group of friends here that, uh, We'll meet up, like, a couple times a year to do, like, in-person plus size clothing swaps. And a lot of those people I found through SellTradePlus. Um, but yeah, it is, like, a huge challenge. Um... Yeah, it's definitely not over. And I also... This is maybe not exactly what you're asking, but I think there can be so much sort of, like, perfectionism and moralism around, like, shopping in the correct way, like, only buying... Yeah, only buying secondhand or only buying from, like, small ethical businesses. And, like, for me, in my body, like, it's just not always realistic. Especially because, like, so many of... Those brands, like, you also can't try on, and even if they do offer expanded sizes, sometimes, like, they don't have the budgets to, like, test them on a whole variety of plus-size bodies, so it's just, like... It's a real challenge, and I think the sort of perfectionism aspect, like, doesn't really do us any favors.Maureen: With that in mind, how, how have you handled that perfectionist mindset? I mean, I know we're all work in progress, but is there anything that you do to navigate that, that perfectionism?Corinne: I mean, it's a constant challenge. I just try to like give myself grace in the same way that I would like someone, you know, a friend, someone I like and care about. I think we're all just doing the best we can out here. And just knowing, like, we're just doing what we can. Maureen: Yeah, I feel the exact same way. I mean, I think what I'm trying to do with Intuitive Style is really highlight that there's no right way to dress or participate in slow fashion. There's no right or wrong way to dress, period. I think, yeah, just trying to move away from that perfectionism and I think a lot of that comes from this place of, like, self-compassion, like what you were just saying about, you know, treating yourself like how you might treat a friend totally resonates with me. I think it's a really good way to go. Corinne: I feel like similar to dieting and diet culture, the thing that that kind of removes from eating and food is the joy element. A lot of we can get from style and fashion and clothes is joy and pleasure and like, fun and novelty. And so if we restrict ourselves in this way of only shopping from the right places or in the right ways….I think we have to leave room for the ability to have fun with it. Maureen: I'd love to hear more about that because I've listened to quite a few episodes of Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith. There seems to be a real strong theme of seeing diet culture in so many different aspects of popular culture and I was just wondering if you could share a little bit about kind of how that theme arose, and what, what you think about that? Corinne: So I also host the Burnt Toast podcast with Virginia Sole-Smith. And I think, I feel like she's really, you know, the expert and the person who has come up with the framing of, like... Is XYZ a diet in a lot of ways? I think it's just like we're talking about kind of like it's, it's the way that perfectionism can kind of like pervade all aspects of our lives. And I think, I sort of think of diet culture as like being under the perfectionism umbrella, like it's kind of like one part of that. And I think a lot of other people have sort of like identified that as being like under an even greater umbrella of like. White supremacy or like capitalism, you know, like all this stuff kind of goes hand in hand. But yeah, I, I, I think for me, it's complicated. It's like, how do you hold it? Multiple true things at the same time. Like, it's true, like, fast fashion is bad for the world. And, like, I do want to be able to, like, have fun with clothes sometimes. Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. I know, and it's so, it's so much easier to write, uh, you know, a post about fast fashion is bad, like, end of story. And I think it's so much easier to write that. And then it's so much more difficult to bring nuance to that. Going back to Substack a little bit, one of... my favorites of your posts on Big Undies, you touch on exclusion within fashion Substack and specifically how the most popular writers on the platform linked to high-end fashion with limited size offerings. So can you talk a little bit more about, you know, how you decided to write that post and, you know, how you feel about it today? Corinne: Yeah, I kind of sat with that post for a while because I was really feeling like I wanted to like quantify what I was feeling in a way like I was feeling like I'm following all these people who are like talking about really cool clothes I love what they're talking about and like none of it is for me basically. But I was also like, am I just, like, do I just have a really narrow, like, am I just not finding the right people or, you know, like, am I missing the links where they're linking to something above a size 10? And, I don't think I was missing that for the most part. Um, but yeah, I don't know. It's a hard feeling. Like, I feel like there's a part of me that, like, Just wants to know what cool people like. Like, I just wanna be in the know and like, know what- Other people are doing. And then there's part of me that's like, I want to completely block this out and ignore it. Because like, none of this is for me. So I, again, I think it's just a balance of like, figuring out what what you can take and what you need to sort of, like, ignore. I don't feel like a ton has changed since I posted that, but I did, I did get like really nice responses for the most part. I’m curious how you feel about that?Maureen: I mean, reading it was just incredible, and I guess I should clarify, I would say that I'm in like a mid-sized body, so I definitely am not on the extreme end, but they're... I also very much relate, like, if there are three sizes in something, it will not fit me, probably. Um, you know, like, I wear, like, an extra large, like, a sixteen kind of vibe. Yeah. And you know, especially the thing that like drives me absolutely insane, is some brands that I try are too big and then some brands that I try I wouldn't fit into the larger size. And I'm like, make it make sense, because, you know, human bodies, like we're on a spectrum and there's like this big gap between like straight sizing and then plus sizing. And I happen to be right in that gap. And, you know, it's just trying to get back to with the high end stuff in particular, I really relate to loving that aesthetic. But so many of those brands specifically like the more high end they are, the more restricted their size options are and so. What maybe I would be able to fit into like a fourteen at Gap, for example, I would absolutely not be able to do at like a really high-end brand. All I know is that like my personal experience is that this is hard and and I can't really relate when people are like….the thing that drives me so insane is when I see someone say like, “thrifting: you can find anything you could ever possibly want thrifting.” And I'm like, just because you have found what you want thrifting does not mean that everyone can. And so I think that's one of the things that really drew me to your Substack and podcast is just this idea of like, okay, I might not be able to relate to every experience that you're having. And I would say that shopping for me is probably easier. And, I acknowledge that. But it's also like not as easy as some other people have it so, I don't know I just think it's, it's, it's so confusing and I hate that brands do this. They make us, like, fit ourselves into a box, into a size, and either we're standard or we're plus or we're not, and it's like, I'm not any of those things. Corinne: What you're saying makes me think of also, like, I feel like now there's all these high-end brands that make, like, really oversized stuff. Like, I wrote about Toteme. I've seen some other ones where it's, like... There's occasionally would be a thing that could fit me, but I'm like, why can you not just make…. you're making huge clothes for really small people, like, why can you not just make huge clothes for huge people? Help me out here. I do sometimes feel like I am like, In an extreme place because like I'm sort of like a 4X-ish so like often even if a brand stops at like size twenty-four it might not be big enough for me. And then I recommend a lot of stuff that like goes up to 4X and then like I recently got a message from someone who was like, yeah, I'm a 5x and a ton of the stuff you recommend doesn't work and it's just like, oh, there's like so many layers and like. There's always someone that it's harder for and someone that it's, like, a little bit easier for. Maureen: It's so crazy, too, because ultimately, like, I don't want to be... Like jealous of or in competition with anybody else right and yeah because these sizes are are set up the way they are and they have these. Arbitrary cutoffs. It just feels like so complicated. Yeah. Just so complicated. And then. And I think, um, so Sushmita of Ethical Fat Fashion, she's also talked about wanting to wear things that fit her body, but then also, are we comfortable with wearing something that technically fits us but isn't for us? And I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question. And I think it just kind of depends on how you might feel about a particular garment and just, you know, is that on your mind or is it not? Corinne: Then alternately, like, sometimes even the stuff that is made to fit you doesn't, so it's like, just like a catch-22. Yeah, yeah, so then it's kind of like…. Maureen: I don't remember, did you end up keeping the Toteme shirt? Corinne: I didn't, and honestly, I sort of regret it. I've definitely, like, had my eye out to see if I can, like, find one used. I think it was like they had, like, extra small, small, medium, or large, and I think I had gotten the medium, so I was like, ooh, I might rather have the large. I also just struggle with the actual cost of that, but. Maureen: Right, right, right. Yeah, cost. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, if you could find it on, on, Sell Trade Plus. Corinne: Yeah. That would be great. Yeah, I definitely, I have my eye out, but I don't know. Maureen: Let's talk about how you decide what to buy and wear, given these different constraints….At the end of the day, you seem to have a really, like, editorial, high fashion kind of aesthetic, like, I mean, no, am I wrong? Corinne: Oh my gosh, I don't know. I think that's funny. Maureen: Oh, okay. Well, correct me. Please, please correct me. How do you view your personal style? Corinne: No, I'm very flattered. I feel like I have a more like, um... I usually, I think I have kind of like a utilitarian style. I don't know. Yeah, that's true. I really like to be comfortable. I feel like I wear a lot of kind of like oversize-y stuff. Um, but I, I appreciate that. Maureen: I mean, all I would say is like, you can be very utilitarian and have absolutely no idea what Toteme is. And so I think you might, your personal style, what you wear might be a little more utilitarian, but like from an outside perspective, like what I see you talking about and how you want to be like in the know is I think that sets you apart even if it doesn't necessarily, like, reflect in what you wear. I think that sensibility and how you style [your clothes] and what you're surrounding yourself by, I mean, to me, I see that at least, so. Corinne: Yeah, that's true. And I do think, like, I'm saying on the one hand, I like... Comfortable clothes. I like utilitarian clothes. And also, like, I would not love to have a closet full of sweatpants, you know? Right. So, like, I think I do kind of, like, go back and forth between, like, comfortable utilitarian stuff and also stuff that feels more... Exciting. Maureen: What's exciting to you right now?Corinne: I am always, like, forever unendingly excited about, like, denim shirts. I just, like, cannot. I mean, the, that was the Toteme thing. Like, I….If see a denim shirt, I want it. And that could be a really utilitarian thing or it could be An $800 Toteme jacket. It's one of those things I feel I could probably wear it every day. But yeah, like I know you also just wrote about this sort of like breadth / depth thing. [Referencing Angie Uh’s post “Breadth vs Depth”]. Like, how, how many denim shirts can I have and how can I sort of, like, differentiate between them? Maureen: How do you decide what to place an order on? Corinne: Yeah. It's not easy, but... It's not easy… I've been someone in the past who shopped very, like, impulsively. Um, like, I see something, I want it, I have the money in my account, I buy it. And I think I'm trying to sort of like, take more of a broad look like okay yes I have six different denim shirts like I like this one do I need to have it. And I think I'll also just say I think part of that sort of, like, the impulsiveness has to do with, like, being in a larger body and not have- like, I- I think sometimes I just want to try something on, you know, and like, I don't have the opportunity to do that in real life very often, so it's like... Am I buying this just because I want to try it on? And not that that's not a valid reason. Like, I think trying on clothes is important. Like, uh, you know, it's a way of, like, experimenting. But, um, if you're buying it just to try it on and you can't return it, then it's, like, a little bit different. I try to think about what else I have in my closet that it's similar to or different from. And definitely also think about price. Like, you know, is this a $17 shirt? Is this a $250 shirt? I like to look at what things are made out of. Um, I do try to stay a little bit away from polyester except for athletic wear.I also like to look at how you wash something. Because I'm like, I'm never gonna dry clean. Just not gonna do it.Maureen: How do you like your clothes to fit? You know, I think some people are really into, like, kind of slouchy oversized. Some people are into fitted. Uh, you know, there's also, like, the... The feeling aspect of like, you know, you mentioned not liking polyester, you know, of course there's like sustainability questions around that, but then also potentially comfort. Like, how do you think about fit and feel? Corinne: I definitely like more oversized stuff, especially on top, I think. I really like a baggy shirt. Pants, I can, you know, have a little more flexibility. Um... Yeah, I find a lot of polyester stuff, like, I don't really like the feeling of it. Although there is some stuff, like, I have some polyester... Like, legging, gym wear stuff that I do think feels nice. Like, it's really soft. Maureen: We love nuance. Corinne: I know. One thing I do try to think about sometimes when I'm trying on clothes is before I look in the mirror or take a picture of myself wearing it, I will try to think like, how does this feel? Physically, like, how does the waistband feel? How is the fabric soft? You know, just like, try to tune into your body before you think about how it looks. Not always easy. I do think sometimes uh, it's hard to get like an idea of how something will feel after you wear it for a long time. Maureen: I love that tip and I try to do that too just putting it on feeling it before welcoming the visual aspect. What about that is difficult sometimes you said it's not always easy?Corinne: I think sometimes how something feels doesn't line up with how it looks. I just did this like Nettle Studio try on and one of the shirts I tried on is it's called the soft volume shirt. It's like just a long-sleeve denim button up. But the sides are cut like really high. So when I first put it on, I was like, whoa, this, this really feels weird. Like, why is the side of the shirt so short? Uh, and I was like, I don't think I like this. But then when I looked at it, I was like, oh, it, I, I like how it looks, you know? So I do think sometimes there's like a disconnect or like, um. Even stuff like tucking in your shirt or something, a lot of people like to do the, like, millennial tuck or whatever. Do you like how that feels? Because I think, I don't think I do, usually. Like, if I start, if I do that, it's usually because I'm like, oh, I think this looks better. And then as soon as I sit down to, like, work at my desk or something, I untuck it.Maureen: That's so fair. Yeah. So, you were talking about, we were talking about ordering clothes just to try them on and I just want to super validate, like, that is so fair and I do that too. And... Friend of the Pod, Dacy Gillespie posted a whole Substack post about how to bring the dressing room to you through online shopping. And I think I'd already kind of had that mindset of like, that's what I'm doing. For whatever reason, reading her stylist take on that was like very validating to me that. It's totally fair, especially if you can't go to a store and try stuff on that, like, in your size. It's so fair to want to order things just to try them on, especially, if you can return them, as we were saying, it's different if we can't. You just have to think about that slightly differently, but I don't know, it just, like, to me, it's been such a big process, like, I just ordered, like, four pairs of pants from Banana Republic. And I don't feel great about shopping Banana Republic for, like, so many reasons. Like, the name is, like, really racist. Corinne: True, yeah. Maureen: I've gotten to the store and I can't find my size like the biggest that they have in stores of thirty-two and I'm like a thirty-three or thirty-four depending on the brand so I like ordered online mostly because there were so many different types that I could try so many different like cuts in lengths that I wanted to try and I figured that that would work. So, I'm bringing the dressing room to me for that and we'll see what happens. I definitely relate to that, you know, reality and how we have to kind of give ourselves permission to do stuff like that. Otherwise, you know, we can't really... I don't know, there's, we have to just, like, settle, I guess. Yeah. Which doesn't feel good, so. I know, it sucks, there's just not a good solution, and, like, it's not our personal fault. Corinne: I also have found it really help when like, when I do that, if I order stuff where I'm like, probably not going to keep it all. A lot of times I find it helpful to take photos when I'm trying stuff on because then you can also, like, refer back, like, to be like, oh, yeah, I ordered from Banana Republic last year and I got this size and, like, that's how they fit. Like, even if you send it back, then you have the... The try-on photos? Maureen: Totally, totally. And then if you wanted to try to find it secondhand, you have a better idea of what size you might be, and it's really hard to, to know that, especially when so many of the platforms that we can buy secondhand on are non-returnable. Although I guess. Totally. Erika Veurink from Long Live keeps saying that most things on eBay are refundable. Corinne: Yeah. I have seen that, I have noticed that some stuff on eBay has, like, there's usually a return policy listed, so at least you know whether it's returnable or not. I haven't experienced that yet, but maybe, maybe this year. Maureen: Let's talk about how your style has evolved over the years. Have you gone through any memorable phases? Corinne: Ugh, I read this question and I was like, I really want to think of a memorable face. You can say you don't have any. I really can't. I couldn't think of one. I mean, I feel like they're... Maybe like memorable, like clothes I've had at certain times in my life. But I feel like I never had like a like goth phase or something. Although I wish I did. Maureen: It’s not too late! Corinne: I know, thank you, yes. I was also thinking, like, when I was really young, like, I don't know, eight or something, I, like, I... I picked out like pink tights and like these like beige or cream colored like denim shorts and I was really excited about that look so. Maureen: Actually, that kind of reminds me, I've seen, I mean, I personally hate. And I know that you talk about tights actually quite a bit on Big Undies. I don't know if I'm, if I'm mistaken, but I would just love to talk more about like tights and especially like, you know, hearing that that's something you wear as a kid and then You know, when I think about that more utilitarian aesthetic, I don't associate tights. So like, how do those fit together for you? Corinne: Yeah, I mean, I should say I feel like I actually don't wear tights now. I think on Big Undies, someone wrote in and was, like, kind of looking for plus-size type Rex. Maureen: Gotcha. Corinne: I do also think, I think... Like, people are wearing tights in a much cooler way than they were when I was wearing tights. Like, I really like the, like, tights under jeans thing where then you have, like, a colored sock. I don't really wear dresses now, so I don't have a lot of tights. But I did like tights for a lot of my life and I think part of it is kind of like sensory like the slight compression and also like but no, like, restriction. Like, it's easy to move around in tights, you know, like, leggings kind of. Um, but I know a lot of people hate how they feel too, so... Maureen: Yeah, and our preferences can change over time. Yeah, that's fair. Okay, yeah, I, I, I did, I remember you saying that you, um, you don't really wear dresses anymore and, you know, fair. I feel like dresses are, like, not super cool right now. Corinne: Oh, interesting. I mean, not in the way that they were, like, in the 2010s. I feel like everybody was wearing…there’s been so many different variations, but I feel like... A cool dress today to me is like a 90s dress, like a mini dress or something, or maybe still like a slip dress for some people, but like. A lot of people were wearing, like, boho kind of dresses. And then, I don't know, I just feel like there was, like, a 10-year period where it was, like... I was wearing a dress every single day or like just dresses were like everywhere and I feel like everybody on like fashion Substack these days is like big pants. I don't know. I, I, do you, am I wrong? Please call me out. Corinne: I don't know if you're wrong. I think, I feel like I see a lot of those kind of like frilly collared dresses on like Instagram. True, true. Yeah, I also feel like I haven't quite untangled whether for me, like, it's like, is not wearing dresses like an age thing. Like, I'm, I think I'm older than you. I'm thirty-nine. But like whether as I've gotten older I've just felt less like inclined towards dresses or whether it's like a gender thing like I feel like I've headed in a more like androgynous fashion direction or If it's like something else, like a practical thing, like it just doesn't feel as, like I feel less like safe having my. Lower half exposed or something. But I thought a lot about, like, is there a dress I would wear? And I feel like I do often, like, I like... Looking at dresses, I'm always like, oh, that's so cool. But it's like the would I wear it? Probably not. So and then yeah, I like this theory that maybe dresses are just less cool to everyone or to like fashion people. Maureen: Living in the Bay Area, uh, it's not super functional to wear a dress because it's, like, really windy. And probably over the summer I'll wear dresses, but, like, in San Francisco, there's seldom occasion where a dress makes sense. I was just talking about this with my co-worker yesterday. It's like, it's just not really like a vibe, you know, you just legs are always cold, but it's like too sunny to wear black tights for me. Complicated thoughts on dresses. The only dress that I have on my maybe wish list but I probably won't buy is that little utility dress from Noble. Corinne: Oh, yeah. Maureen: Do you know that one? It's so cute. It's so cute. Yeah. But I, I probably am not gonna buy it. It's just like, I like it. And if I was going to wear a mini dress, it would be that, but I'm probably not.Corinne: Well, they do have, they have like a similar looking jumpsuit, right? Maureen: They do. You're right. You're right. I feel like it's doesn't come in a the right inseam for me. They, they run on the kind of shorter side and I just, I hate when like my entire ankle is exposed. I guess I could wear tall socks, but like…Corinne: You could wear tights under it. Maureen: Yes, you're so right. Corinne: Yeah. Um, I saw this, I feel like it was like this fall Misha and Puff. Do you know that brand? They're, like, a knitwear brand. They had, like, a long, I think it was, like, wool. It was almost, like, a coat, like, of, like, maxi length dress that just looked like a long wool coat and I was like, oh, I do kind of like that. But they don't make my size, so... Maureen: Oh, no, I thought you were gonna say it was inclusive. I was like, I'm so excited. Corinne: No, I just saw the photos and was like, I will save that to think about. Yeah, yeah, like, uh, can I find this in my size something? Maureen: So, we're recording this towards the start of 2025. I realize that we're almost at the end of... February, but it feels like this last two months has been like a minute and also like a year. So do you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year? Corinne: Yeah, I did kind of make some commitments to myself at the beginning of the year around like fashion stuff. I'm trying to track my clothes buying. Like, I'm not saying I'm only gonna buy this many things or I'm only gonna spend this much money, but I would like to have a better idea of how many things I am buying or how much money I am spending. Just cause like we talked about in the past, I've just sort of been like, if I want it and I have the money, I'll buy it. Also, I'm not using Amazon that's, I mean, I was not buying clothes on Amazon, but um, yeah, this year I'm just trying to sort of cut some of those big corporations out, as I think a lot of people are. Um, and I'm also trying, I'm trying not to buy multiples of things. I think one thing I realized is... I don't need to be doing that. Both the thing where I'll, like, I'll do, I'll both buy an exact another version of something I like or I'll buy this, that thing in, like, a different color. Um, and I'm just trying to, like, be like, it's okay if you can't wear your most favorite pants right now because they're in the wash. Like, they'll be out of the wash in two days or you can wear them dirty. Because I feel like in the long term it's like you always end up getting rid of one or both of them so and yeah just also in terms of that like depth versus breadth thing like I think it's a little more satisfying to have something else.And then the other thing that's maybe a sort of longer term thing is I'm sort of trying to think about, like, redoing my closet infrastructure. Maureen: Ooh! Corinne: I live in a very old house that has very small closets and... Right now I just have a metro rack which is like a wire kitchen storage rack shoved into the closet and I like fold everything on there and It's not a good system. So longer term, I would like to think about, like, having someone build shelves or put in some kind of, like, hanging rack. But I'm not, like, 100% sure that'll happen this year. But definitely something I would like to... Maureen: Yeah, what's holding you back? That sounds awesome. Corinne: I mean, money. Maureen: Okay, fair. Yeah, fair. Corinne: On the one hand, money. Like, I have no idea what something like that would cost. And I also, like, I kind of want to, like... I feel like I've been in the process of kind of like getting rid of some stuff that I've been holding on to so I kind of want to finish the clear out before I start restructuring things but who knows when that'll happen. Maureen: What are the kinds of things that you're wanting to let go of? Well, I think I just have a lot of stuff that I wear very rarely and I don't know. Stuff. Clothes. This is something I've like been intending to write about that I haven't written about yet, but I bought a couple of months ago, I bought like a garment rack, like a rolling one. And I've kind of like stuck it in the corner of my room and then when I pull something out of my closet that I'm like, I don't think I wear this, then I'll put it on that. And then it's like, I, it's very, I can see it. And so if I'm like, oh, no, I actually do want to wear it, then I'll just wear it. But otherwise, then I have this rack of stuff that I'm like meaning to get rid of. And then it feels like the stuff that's in my closet is more like the stuff I'm wearing a lot. Yeah. I also saw, um, I think on Instagram, Marielle Elizabeth. Do you know her? Maureen: I don't think so. Corinne: Okay, she's like a amazing plus size influencer person but she has been talking about uh, how she'll put like she'll pick out, like, a number of things to have in her closet and then pack everything else away. Like, sometimes it just feels like you have too much stuff in your closet. So, having, like, kind of, like, rotating... little capsules of stuff you're wearing at a time and then refreshing it at some point. Maureen: Yeah, totally. That's something I do. I think it's, I think it's great just having fewer things, especially, you know, having only things that fit. I mean, that's just a good place to start. But then also the things that are inspiring you right now, or to your point, pulling out the things that are not inspiring you and seeing if maybe, uh, looking at them more helps clarify. That makes sense to me. Corinne: I have, like, a black turtleneck and I'm like, that's one of those things that seems like everyone should have. Right. But I'm also never wearing it. So, like, why? I don't need to have this just because I think it's, like, a good thing to have. Maureen: Fair. Fair. What advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels authentic to them? Corinne: That's a good question. I guess my advice would be like, try to think about it as a journey or like, it's always going to be changing. Like, you're never going to get to a point with your closet where you have everything you want and need nothing. I think that's okay. I think just having some acceptance around the fact that, like, it's gonna change, like, your style will change, trends will change, your body will change, and it's, it's good. That's how it's supposed to be. It's a journey.Maureen: That's such a good answer. Corinne: I want to know what your answer is. Maureen: Oh, my answer! Oh, man. Um, my answer is, yeah, I mean, same. I try not to let this come across too much on my Substack and on the podcast, but I'm kind of leaning towards a minimalist. And so fundamentally, I think we need less than we think we need. I'm not trying to push that agenda if it doesn't fit for other people, but you know, sometimes we don't know what we want until we have it. And you know, I am like, I've had one drink of alcohol for the last like three months and I didn't know that I wanted to be sober until I started and I had, I had a glass of wine the other day and I was like, I don't want that anymore. And, you know, I feel the same thing with, with having fewer pieces of clothing. I really thought that abundance was bringing me joy. And then when I gave myself permission to really reduce down to a much smaller number of things. I was like, this is so much better. So, sometimes we don't know what we want until we have it, and I think to your point about doing that kind of like capsule-y thing, uh, or even just pulling out a couple things. You know, if those things that you pull out that you want to wear every day are working really well, that'll be very clear that, you know, that lack of abundance isn't necessarily a bad thing. On the flip side of that, if you do try to reduce down to a really small capsule wardrobe and the pieces are completely wrong, that will make it extremely difficult to follow through with. And so I don't think it's like a silver bullet. I don't think it's always appropriate or the best thing to do. But personally, I found fewer things to be more clarifying. Than a whole bunch of things that I had thrifted or whatever, so. Corinne: Yeah, that really makes, that makes so much sense to me. I've definitely experienced that with, like, traveling sometimes, like, I get back. Yes. And I'm like, wait, why do I have, like. It's just more laundry, you know, like why do I have so many clothes? I just have to wash them all the time. Maureen: Yes, that is legitimately one of my favorite benefits is that I do a load of whites and a load of darks once a week. And, I do my husband's laundry. I promise he does things for me too, but I like doing our clothes. Because if he messed up my clothes, our relationship would not survive. So I do the laundry. But yeah, I mean, I don't have to do so much of it because I have a few number of things. So that's my take.Corinne: I love that. Maureen: Well, this was really fun. Thanks for coming on the pod and where can listeners find you? So you can find me on Substack. My Substack is called Big Undies. You can also find me sometimes on Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith, which is also a Substack and you can find in podcast players. I’m on Instagram at Selfie Faye. Faye is my last name. F as in Frank, A-Y. I think that's it. Maureen: Well, thank you. Uh, this was so enjoyable and yeah, I just, I really appreciated getting to talk to you and I hope we can catch up again. Corinne: Definitely. It was really fun. Thank you. OutroThank you to our guest, Corinne Fay, for joining us today. Thank you to everyone listening at home, and if you enjoyed this episode, please consider Liking, sharing, or subscribing so that you don't miss any future episodes. We do have some pretty exciting guests coming up. Next week's episode features Laura De Valencia Kirk from La Deeply Shallow here on Substack. I really think you guys are going to love what she has to say and what she has to share. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style is now available via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Substack, and select episodes are also on YouTube so that you can interact with this podcast in whichever way is most natural to you. Thanks and see you next week! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Registered Nurse, veteran, wellness coach, author, and public speaker (phew!), Kori Rae Kovacs BSN RN joins me in conversation today. She shares wisdom from her personal and professional experience, actionable suggestions for how to move past shame to dress authentically, and a new question to help us all figure out how we want to dress.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.Maureen: As a life and wellness coach, you specialize in inspiring others to embrace unique strengths, essentially matching our outsides to our insides. I love this concept. Can you share a little bit of a glimpse into your approach?Kori: Yeah, absolutely. I came up with this phrase about, you know, bringing your insides outsides, or bringing this like matching component of what you feel who you are on the inside, who you are at a soul level, and really getting the opportunity to share that out in the world. I feel like I came across this concept. I'm not really sure where, but I developed it kind of became a mantra for me when I realized that I have this beautiful being inside of me that is just wanting to come out. I had really gone through a really challenging time in my life, and I felt like. I was kind of hiding myself, and when I started reconnecting with this person that I am, you know, this person who has grown through resiliency through things that have been challenging. Then suddenly I realized, Wow, she's a really cool person. I want to bring her out into the world. And so I started matching my outsides to the person that I was feeling and getting to know on the inside. And when that happened I just feel like I was like coming out of a cage. Suddenly my wings, just like burst out, and I was able to really show up in the world as the person that I believe that I am.Maureen: That's incredible. And you talk about this idea of, you know, you've been through these difficult situations, and it almost sounds to me like that inner confidence came first, and then the outside happened second, do you have a perspective on, you know which need? If you can, fake it till you make it? Or does the inner confidence come first? Does it kind of depend? Or at least just speak from your perspective.Kori: Yeah, that's such a great question, because I think we live in a day and age where they talk about, you know, faking it till you making it or putting this front on the outside, but really not feeling confident on the inside. I know I share that story a lot with my audience is that I believe that confidence comes from your self-trust within yourself. It's not something that you can just snap and say, Oh, I feel confident today I'm going to go out and do this thing. I think that feels really forced. And so to me, it's about building trust with yourself getting to know who you are, and then expressing and taking action from that step that truly brings the confidence out in you, because you can feel confident, maybe in in some things, you know, but not in other areas. And I truly believe that you know, if you look up confidence in the, in the etymology. I'm a huge etymology nerd. So if you look at confidence, what that means, it really means a reliance or deep trust in something or someone, and when we talk about confidence about you having a deep trust and reliance in yourself, to be able to go out and be this person that you know that you can be so when you start building that self trust. Then that's really where the confidence starts to grow.Maureen: How have you built self trust, personally?Kori: That's such a great question. I you know a lot of it had to come from a place of compassion. Like, of being human. And I had gone through a really hard time in my life. I became a single mom, and my career took a shift. I was going to school to become a nurse during the pandemic, and things just really fell apart in my life. Trajectory as I was approaching, and I felt a lot of shame and a lot of guilt about the direction of where I was going, and in addition to that, I had gained like pounds. And so there was all these things that had happened, and I really lost my confidence and my faith in myself to be able to go out into the world and show the world who I was. So I feel like the moment that I decided to offer compassion for this place, and in the survival mode that I had been in and what had happened to me in my life. Suddenly it opened up space for me to actually get to know who I was, and when that happened, I started taking steps by journaling and meditating and moving my body in a way that felt genuine to me and that consistency of really finding out who this person was. Suddenly. Now I was like, oh, you're actually a pretty cool kid. I really kind of like you. And so like, day by day, that trust just started to build. And then I was able to go back out into the world and show, you know, come out in my style and come out, you know, and start a business, and and all of these things that honestly, a couple of years ago I wouldn't have had the courage to do.Maureen: I mean, it makes me feel somewhat emotional, you know, talking about that thick layer of shame that just can sit, sit on us, and make it so difficult to like crack through into the person that we actually are. And just I so relate to that. I want to talk more about this idea of self-compassion, and maybe you can talk about that with, sharing a little bit about more about how your relationship with your body has changed, you know, being a veteran, being a registered nurse, a parent life coach, you know, and then also that that kind of weight gain that you experience. Can you tell us a little bit more about? You know your relationship to your body, and how that's changed over time.Kori: Oof! That has been a challenge. I feel like my whole life. You know I was a dancer. I was a dancer when I was growing up, and I just loved moving my body. But as I went through puberty suddenly I became a very curvy girl. I had, I mean, overnight, you know, by the time my freshman year I was a double d, and I had big hips and big thighs. I kind of have a you know, curvy but athletic, muscular body, and it didn't fit the mold of being a dancer. As a matter of fact, my my junior year of high school. I was not. I was not allowed to join the pom squad, because they literally told me I my body was distracting like that. My boobs were too bouncy that it was. It was too sexy like you think about that. And I'm like, Oh, my God!Right, and that there's these messages that just kept telling me that my body was wrong. The very first night I was in Boot camp you brought up being a veteran. The very first night I went to. They made me stand at attention for 45 minutes because they didn't know what to do with me, because I had. I had scored a perfect score on the Asvab, which means I could basically do whatever job in the military I wanted, but I was 2 pounds under their weight limit, and they were like.The first words that were told to me is like Skaggs. That was my maiden name with Skaggs. They're like “Skaggs. You are lazy. That's your problem.”Maureen: Oh!Kori: So, yeah, so there was this and that carried with me. Lazy. You're lazy because they looked at my body, and they said, You know they looked at my weight. They looked at my body, even though I was. Oh, my gosh! I was 146 pounds, by the way, like, really, this is ridiculous here. But they said that I just I didn't care about my body, and that I was lazy, and that message was carried around for a decade, and I internalized all of these messages that my body was wrong, that I was. You know I was also hyper sexualized in in the military. And you know, experienced a lot of things that I shouldn't have had to go through because of that. And you know, after I got out suddenly, I realized I had a lot of feelings about my body, and they were not. They weren't good. They weren't good. So then, you know, I really did have to come face the music a little bit about that relationship with my body, because it really was hurting me, and I didn't realize it. So when I came to that point of compassion. Suddenly I realized that relationship was so severely damaged. and I remember crying one day when I had this insight that my body was my soul's mate. I just had this beautiful concept that my soul came here to earth to express itself, to do its mission to, you know, whatever my soul came here to do, and that my body was here to support that. And so they literally are a team together. And I had been hating this other part of me, and it like I was almost crushing when I have remember, I remember just bawling my eyes out when I realized that. And so I decided from that day on that I was going to get to know who this souls mate was, who my souls may, who my body was, and that changed everything. That was years ago when that happened. And it just, everything changed after that.Maureen: Good for you, and I mean, I want to acknowledge to the trauma that led to the shame around your body right? Because it's not just that people were making these comments about your body. It was what they, what these comments meant about who you are as a person. This idea of laziness based on your physical appearance, which is, you know, so much driven by genetics, to begin with. [Editor’s note: and zip-code]Kori: Right.Maureen: And then. But really like it wasn't just that they're commenting on your body. They're they're making it mean something about you. And that's how we get to this idea of shame, which is basically I always want to clarify. Shame and guilt are different. Shame is, I am bad, and guilt is, I did something bad and. Really getting to to see that difference. And self-compassion is when we can look at ourselves and say, at the core, we are okay. We are good, we have good intentions, we do our best, and sometimes we will make actions that are not in alignment with our own values. For so many reasons that happens and be able to say, and I love myself anyway, and that could also be, I'm neutral about my body, anyway. It doesn't to me. It doesn't have to be that I love my body every day or every single way. I try to have more of a body neutrality perspective personally, but you can still have self compassion, even when you are still struggling with your body. And I would say that they're they're very related. I just really wanted to to talk about that more. That idea of of shame and self-compassion is the only way through really.Kori: It really is. There's this saying, I like to say is that curiosity is the cure for judgment. When we when we bring curiosity to any situation, whether it's about our bodies or in relationships or anything right, we suddenly step into a vibration of like that's outside of judgment. You cannot be curious about something, and judge at the same time, it's impossible. Yeah, and so, I think when it came to my body like, that's where the the compassion was able to come in is like, I started to get curious about this, this, this thing right, this this you know, part of me that has always been here. And curious about how I relate to that part of myself. And suddenly I wasn't criticizing myself as much. I stopped walking by the mirror and saying, You're disgusting, like I right those things that we do, I mean. Oh, my gosh, we all do, and it's very relatable. And I remember feeling how hard like, how hard that was, and how damaging that was now that I look back on it.But but when I was in the thick of it. The curiosity is what allowed that compassion to come in, because suddenly it I looked at it through new eyes, instead of saying, You know, oh, my stomach is, you know, fat and ugly. I actually got curious about why my stomach, I had gained weight in my stomach turns out that my body was actually trying to save my life because I was insulin resistant. So like, when I started getting curious about what actually had happened to my body. Suddenly I no longer felt that anger and resentment, and carried that shame. I was able to let some of that go because of that curiosity.Maureen: I'm curious what you think about this: we we still, even when we bring ourselves that compassion and that curiosity, we can still struggle with negative self-talk. I mean, I certainly deal with this all the time. I've made huge strides towards being more positive about my body and feeling more comfortable, and dressing the way that I want to not just based on what I think I should be wearing. But you know there are moments where I still look in the mirror I feel in my body, and I'm like, Oh, that's I still struggle with that. I'm curious. If you relate to that at all, and how you how you handle that, you know, knowing that we're not always going to have positive thoughts about our body, just because in general we're feeling better about it.Kori: Yeah, absolutely. I, it's, you know, I would be remiss to say, that, oh, yeah, I, every single day, I'm like, oh, my gosh, Buddy, you're amazing. But what I do is, I build things into my schedule that actually make me feel good about my body, and I do that consistently so. For example, one of the things I do is I set aside time every single day, and have built my business around, making sure that I take care of myself in the morning, and that means I'm getting, you know, if I'm breaking my fast, you know, at that particular time I have nutrition that supports my body in that way, so, you know, supports my gut or supports my health. I'm making sure that I'm doing movement that brings me joy, and that does not come from a place of abuse. Right? Because I did that for a decade, where I abused my body and was told to abuse my body, and that I that was horrible. Now that's not the place that I come from. I come from a place of love and joy generation rather than I have to be thinner or be, you know, change my body because I don't like the way it looks. It's more like, I get to come back to a place of self-love in that in that space. And so by those consistent actions. Suddenly, now that negative self-talk, it becomes less and less because I'm intentionally building in things that that makes me feel strong. That reminds me that I'm capable reminds me that my body is capable. And when I do those things. Suddenly the self-talk, it gets a lot smaller. The negative stuff talk, I mean, yeah.Maureen: And maybe this is a tricky question. But can you think of how the experience of moving your body today feels different in comparison to when you were abusing your body?Kori: Oh, my gosh! So last year I had started doing a program on Beachbody called Fire and Flow, and I remember this moment where I had just finished a workout, and , who's of the trainers in this program. She she I don't even remember what she said exactly, but there was this feeling I had that I was actually nourishing myself, and that the movement that I was doing was loving me, not hating me, and this moment that I had. I start, I'm sweating, and I'm bawling. overwhelms me with emotion, because suddenly I was like realized I was doing something that was caring for me, and not making me feel like a piece of crap, you know, and and I had been in that space, and really had begun to resent movement. And you know, like I had a lot of unpack a lot of that, because I resented moving my body because I was forced to do it so for so long. And told that my body was wrong and forced to make it smaller. And then suddenly, I needed to get back into a space where I realized movement actually is more than that, it's about loving my mind and helping me relieve my anxiety and helping me feel stronger and more flexible, and like all these things. And so now I was able to see that movement was not about shrinking myself. Movement was actually about loving myself.Maureen: Oh, man, that's so powerful, I think. I don't know if you're very familiar with positive psychology.Kori: Absolutely.Maureen: Yeah, I just hear this overlap with moving towards good rather than trying to avoid bad right? And when you're in that kind of abusive state you're trying. You're you're afraid of your body. You're afraid of being fat. You're afraid of getting fat. You're afraid of what people will say about you, or you're afraid ofwhat barriers your body might create, or society will create around your body. Right. And then the positive psychology of you know moving towards positive is, you know, when I do, Yoga, I feel more relaxed. I feel more able to go back to my work day. Through the rest of the day I feel more able to show up for my family. I feel more strong, It just seems like you're really encompassing those positive psychology practices.Kori: Oh, my gosh, you I mean, like I'm sitting here. I'm like pointing on my nose. I was like you hit the nail on the head in terms of my personal philosophy. You know this is what I teach my clients in in wellness or in, you know, if they're trying to make moves in their career or improve their relationships. The thing is is that the more that we focus on the negative pieces, then the more the energy that we're feeding it.I mean, you had said something about that fear of being judged for our bodies, or negative consequences for our bodies being the way it was, and I literally lived with that for a decade, because I was always under threat of getting kicked out like if you were not making weight. You were losing your job, and that was, I mean, the stress that came from that which also raised my cortisol was which meant I was not losing weight like, and like. I realize that mental, that mentality, and how much I would love to go back to that Kori and say, sister, like here, you know, come back to love and come back to like you said, using that positive psychology mindset of, you know, moving towards what you want instead of away from what you don't like when you start focusing. You know. I think you know says that, like what you you know, where where attention goes, energy flows. And and that is so true because the more you focus on that care, that self-care that I'm moving for care. I'm moving because it makes me joyful because it connects me to myself because it, you know it feels good. The more you focus on that, the easier it becomes.Maureen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I suppose we should talk about clothing.Kori: Maybe we should get to that point.Maureen: We talked a little bit at the beginning about making your “outsides match your insides, and I would just love to hear, how do you decide what to buy or wear today? How do you decide what not to buy or wear?Kori: Yeah, I love that. I love these questions. They're so amazing. So how do I decide what to buy or what to wear. I had this amazing exercise that I got inspired by one day. I don't even remember where it came from, but I asked myself in my journal, I said, how would I dress if I didn't think I was fat?Maureen: Yeah!Kori: And then suddenly, I was just like I would dress. I would wear my ties again, and I would put on lace and my leather pants and pencil, you know, just like I would wear my, you know, I just wrote out this whole thing. I was like, Oh, my gosh! That's how I actually want to dress. And I realized that. And so I made a commitment to myself that day. And I said, Okay, I'm not going to buy anything else unless it fits inside this kind of style value like that's what I called it like. It's like my values about my style. And unless it's very intentional, like, Okay, I'm not going out in my corset to go feed the chickens, guys. Okay.But I mean, you know, I am wearing a T-shirt that feels, you know, good to me in terms of my color or expression. So even in that space, like my workout clothes or things like that, I'm very intentional about what I buy and does it fit within my personal style value. And, you know, on a daily basis, like what I choose. Why, you know how I choose what I want to wear daily. Well, that's like a fun little game I like to do. I go into my closet, and I ask myself, you know, kind of ask my inner self, or even my inner child and say, What would you like to wear today? And she's like, Oh, pick this and pick this. And so I just do that. And you know I have some freedom in that. I work from home, and I, you know, get to kind of play with my style a little bit. But even when I'm going for a speaking engagement, or or, you know, out to a workshop like I still play that game, because that's how I bring the curiosity, the play the part of me that wants to express herself, and it gets me out of my head. And I'm able to fully show up as myself, and in authenticity that way.Maureen: I've done some inner child therapy. So I'm very familiar with that concept. But for anyone who's listening, who, you know, maybe isn't as familiar with inner child. How well, besides, what it is, maybe. Can you talk about how you you know when you are getting dressed? How do you tap into that inner child. I want to be really practical.Kori: Yeah, really practical. Honestly, I would say that music helps me do that honestly.Maureen: Oh!Kori: We were kind of talking about this before we started talking. But I have like curated playlists that I have on my phone. That's very specific. That gets me into a certain mood. So if I want to tap into my inner child, I'll listen to music that feels uplifting that I used to love as a kid. Typically things like you know, I was. I was a teenager during the boy band, so I'll put on ‘Nysnc and dance around my room for a minute. So you know, getting tapping into this inner child, part of you requires, like a little bit of movement and kind of that shift, you know. Nostalgia kind of helps a lot as well gets you into that space and and smiling just even doing that can help you connect with a little bit more playfulness and a little bit more authenticity. And so I literally do that before I go into my closet I find a way totap in, and it's almost I had to think about it for a minute, because it's almost just like automatic. Because I get into that state. And but when I do, I feel like I feel so much better, because there's also times where I'm not wanting to be super vibrant. And that changes, you know, throughout my cycle, wherever I'm at in my cycle, you know. Sometimes I want to dress up like a villain right? Which is also kind of fun, you know, like, sometimes I want to dress up like a bad guy, and I'm like, how would I dress if I was a bad guy today. And then I put on my jean jacket, and you know, like my spiky earrings and things like that. So that's a it's really just kind of tuning in like, how am I feeling today? Who do? I want to express myself today?And you know that getting into that vibe is, you know, that's kind of a part of that self trust of like getting to know who you are and knowing who you are throughout. You know your cycle or throughout your kind of emotional patterns. And it's it's a lot of fun when you do that.Maureen: I've been thinking a lot about dressing as my inner child and and someone on Substack, Lindsay Sword, had posted this this thing about styling sweater vests, and when I was in like elementary school, I had multiple sweater vests from the gap that I wore on like repeat. I just got a new sweater vest, and I was like absolutely like obsessed with it. I'm just curious, you know. Are there any things that you wore as a kid, that you are literally like kind of thinking about today, or even colors, or what did little Kori wear?Kori: Oh, my! Gosh, have a picture of me sitting over here on on one of my where I'm like sitting on a merry-go-round, and I'm wearing this bright teal sweater with like all kinds of stuff on it, and teals teals like one of my favorite colors. So I remember just loving wearing bright things, and you know, we you know, grew up shopping secondhand, you know. And and so I remember always going to the goodwill and and finding the most colorful things that I could. And so I think, as I've gotten older, been able to play with color and find the ways that I want to express myself has been really fun to see. You know, this kind of idea of what I thought was cool, or what I thought I was fun, you know, especially growing up in the late eighties early nineties like there was color everywhere. So, and then, having the tease. Bangs, I mean, Jeez, I've already got, you know, teasing my bags so like I mean, because my bangs literally stood straight up as a kid. They called me Porcupine, because my literally stood straight up, and I'm like, Oh, look well, I guess this works now, because my hair naturally wants to do this swoosh. So yeah, like, really bringing that those kinds of things in and just not taking myself so seriously. Yeah. And I love this like idea of what you said with the sweater vest. I'm like, oh, what did like? I have to think about that, because I love that idea that is so great bringing that in. And it sounds like it makes you happy too.Maureen: For whatever reason, when I was a kid I just thought they were the absolute, coolest thing, and no one was wearing them, no one. Just me. So that's how I know it's authentic.Kori: There you go exactly, and you get to do that. And the thing is is like people might look at you like funny, like I know when I show up in my bright as pink, you know, jacket and pants and all these things like, sometimes people are like, Whoa, okay, but I realized, too, when I stopped when I stopped dressing for other people's approval and started dressing for my own approval. I just got so much freer and so much happier, and you know it. Really, it really makes a difference.Maureen: I love that. Let's talk a little bit about body awareness. We've talked about how you bring yourself into that kind of childlike wonder space when you're getting dressed. But when you are picking out what to to wear, do you pay attention to texture, fit, or style that feel physically comfortable on your body or on the other side of that. Do you ever wear something that's intentionally uncomfortable because it puts you into a certain headspace. I'm curious about that, too.Kori: I love this because I realized being, you know. So, being a professional speaker and a person who's out in the, you know, kind of out there on stages and doing things. I had started looking at different women and what they were doing kind of in my industry. And I realized a lot of them wear heels. And I, when I first started speaking, I had this like choice point where I realized I was like, Well, I get to choose how I want to show up. And I realized, I jump around on stage. I move around an awful lot, and I was like, I don't. I do not want to do that in heels, and so I made a choice. I was like, I'm not going to speak in heels. I'm going to speak in my chucks, because that's what I love to wear, and they're comfortable, and that gives me the freedom to move around and to not like worry about my feet because I don't want to be worrying about my feet when I've been standing on stage for an hour and a half, like I want to be serving the people that I came there. I want to be, you know, in flow. I don't want to be worrying about my feet. So yeah, I made a choice like right then and there. I was like, I'm not going to wear heels to speak, even though heels, I mean aesthetically. Sure. I mean. You know they make you taller. I'm kind of short. I'm a Shorty girl. I'm about , so you know it. Would it make my legs look longer and kind of things, sure. But bro, I'm like I. And so, you know, I'm sure there's other things, too. But I feel like that particular point is like you making the choice about how you want to show up and realizing that actually comfort in that regards actually does matter because it it is distracting. If you're not feeling comfortable. The textures of the clothes you're wearing, or things are too tight or or just, you know, for the sake of again, kind of like this external approval. And if you do make that choice to wear something, then be intentional with it. Don't just be like, Oh, I'm going to wear these heels because they expect me to. It's like, Oh, I'm going to wear these heels because I feel like today. I want to be in that space. Maybe I want to feel extra sexy. Or maybe there's something you know, particularly like you said a feeling I want to come into. But you best believe I'm gonna have a pair of sneakers in my bag.Maureen: I love that clarity. And you know I asked that question about purposefully wearing something uncomfortable right? Because, you know, for example, the comedian . You know I don't necessarily agree with everything that she says or does, but I've been watching a lot of her interviews, and she talks about how she wears these like sky high heels to perform in, and she's in such a flow state with her comedy, anyway, that when she's on stage she like puts them on. And then it's like, Okay, it's go time. She's totally fine wearing them for the whole performance, and only when she's done with the performance do her feet hurt, and she wants to take them off. But I thought that was like so fascinating. It's almost like this, yeah, to what you're saying, like changing from like normal Nikki to stage Nikki, or whatever you know. And I think that's really interesting. But you know, going back to to your performance like you want to be yourself all the time, maybe, and and just really kind of have let your shoes not be the focus.Kori: Yeah, I feel like it's, you know, and I can definitely see what she's kind of saying in that space of like stepping into that person that's on stage. And and it's almost like kind of turning up the volume a little bit, because that does help you get into flow. And you know. I know that there's, you know, there's kind of certain variations of things, you know, days when I'll maybe not turn my volume all the way up when I'm choosing my clothes, or things like that, you know, wanting to be a little bit more casual, but I do know that there is that like I have this hot pink blazer that I wear, and every time I put that thing on man I just feel like a million bucks.And so I reserve that jacket for when I need that space, because it does help me get into that space. Now, granted, it's fitted for me, and it feels good and everything like that, too. But there is. There is definitely something to be said about that about having something that helps you click, into flow, and like a trigger, so to speak, and so I feel like clothes can do that. Certainly they can be something that can amplify you, if you need some confidence, to go in and talk to your boss about a raise, or, if you need to, you know, have a conversation with somebody that might be difficult. Then yeah, find the thing in your closet that makes you feel great and put that on because it does help a lot.Maureen: I love that like making space for the multiplicity of of human experience, like, we don't have to elevate comfort exclusively. There are other ways. But personally I love being comfortable. So, I always try to balance my own kind of preferences. We're recording this towards the start of , I guess we're we're months in now, but it feels like it's still just beginning. Do you have any style or personal goals you're excited to work towards this year?Kori: Well, I feel like I've really got a good handle on my, on my wardrobe and where it's going. But I need to start this like, I wrote this down. I love this question because I need to get my stuff tailored like I realized. And I remember that you know, in my image back when I was a image consultant like. I would tell my clients that all the time get your stuff tailored, because clothes right off the rack are not meant for your body. And now that I have this like expanded view of what my body is now, I'm like even more so like I need to step back into a space of like making things fit me, instead of expecting that my body fits everything else, and I feel like that is just such the narrative of my life like there was always this expect expectation that my body fit every external viewpoint, regulation, you know, standard of image or whatever. And I'm at this point now where I'm like, I'm going to make my clothes fit my body, and you know I'm kind of going through some changes in my health, and you know I've been on weight loss journey, and and, you know, getting myself back to health and reclaiming myself after after the challenges I went through. And so tailoring is absolutely becoming more and more necessary, as my body is kind of changing in that way. So I have made that commitment, you know. Thanks to you asking that question. I'm like, What's my goal this year? Yeah, get my stuff tailored so that way I feel. I'm getting the most out of my wardrobe, and it really, truly does fit me and my body.Maureen: Good for you, good for you.Kori: It makes a difference. It really does. I, you know I tell people that like it makes a difference, especially with things like that are a little bit more structured. You know, blazers and and jackets, or even but even pair of jeans like getting a pair of jeans tailored. Wow! You can take a pair of jeans from target and elevate those to make them look like they're from Vonmar, okay? Or or Nordstrom like you really can, with a bit of tailoring. And it's definitely not you know, in terms of an investment, a cost investment. It's pennies on the dollar to those kind of other things, so.Maureen: Before we wrap up. I really wanted to go back to this idea of you said it so well, it was like dressing for other people's approval versus your approval. And I was just really hoping you could expand on that a little bit, because I think that's the core of what intuitive style is. And it's not to me not necessarily negating the fact that we're social people, and we care about other people's opinions. But this notion of approval, and how, we decide what we approve or not approve. Can you share a little bit more about that? That concept?Kori: Yeah, I I love this idea of what you're encapsulating here with the approval aspect like, who's approval? Whose approval are we seeking? Is it other people? Or is it ours and understanding that feel like the bridge? There is really about intention.I like to think about the intentional energy I'm bringing to the space right when I when I dress to go out on a date with my with my partner, like, I want to feel sexy. And yeah, I want, you know, there's an extra action there. So there is thought here that I bring like, what does you know he find attractive. You know he really likes my butt, so I like to wear. You know I have these pair of like Spanx, like leather pleather leggings that I wear, and you know, and I love wearing them, and he loves them. And so there's this part of me that's bringing this intentional energy that we're creating together during an experience through my wardrobe. And that, you know, am I dressing for his approval? Well, in a sense, maybe. But it's different. It's not like I'm only thinking about him. It's I'm thinking about him and me, and who I want to be in this space, and I do that for everything. If I'm doing a speaking engagement. If I have an interview with somebody, if I'm meeting friend for coffee, like, I really spend a lot of time thinking about who do I want to be in this space, and when I do that I find that I show up way more as an authentic person, and not just dressing, because I think that they're going to approve of me. It is considering them right different places, you know. I'm probably going to dress differently with my friend than I will with my, you know, with my partner like that's that naturally makes sense. But when I am more intentional about that.And choose outfits that reflect who I want to be that day. Then I find that that external approval, just like dissipates it goes away, and it really becomes a kind of a collaborative or a community, you know, kind of like you said, we're social creatures. So there is something that's kind of being formed together. But it'syou know it's definitely I'm bringing myself back into that conversation instead of just it just being about other people.Maureen: I love that and such great examples. Thank you for sharing. Kori, this has been incredible. I've learned so much. I love your question about you know. What would I wear if I didn't think I was fat? I love the suggestion of listening to nostalgic music when I get dressed, or when I play in my closet definitely haven't done that in a while. What other advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive to them?Kori: Just really get to know who you are now. We are dynamic creatures, and we are always evolving. And I think sometimes we go through so much in our lives, you know, if we become moms, or maybe we have a weight change. Or you know, we go through these things, and sometimes we'll look back at pictures, and be like Gosh! I wish I was her again. Gosh! I wish I was back at that weight again. Gosh! I wish I was like right. We look backwards, and I think the more that we come back to this space now, and really get to know who we are now and then start expressing ourselves from that point forward. Now we feel aligned. Now we feel like we feel more genuine in this representation, and no longer are we feeling resentful, or even that shame of that change. Now we are really stepping into who this person is. Right here right now and then who she can come through and step out into the world without. You know that. like we said that external approval. So yeah, just get to know who you are, and that you'll find that when you start matching your matching your outsides with your insides suddenly you feel just much more. You every day.Maureen: I love that that's incredible. And I so relate to that idea I used to. Yeah, like, look longingly at pictures of myself when I was thinner, and I was like, if I just looked like that again. But I've put in so much work to like, be at peace with who I am, and how I want to dress that when I look back on those pictures now, I don't feel that anymore. I just feel like oh, she had no idea how like wrapped up in her body she was, and how obsessed with being thin she was. And now, when I look at those pictures, I don't want to go back there. I don't want to. I don't envy her. I just feel like, Oh, wow! She needed some love, and you couldn't necessarily see that based on like what we think when we look at a thin person. But I see it. And yeah, I just, I think that's such an incredible incredible truth that you brought up there, which is just, you know, when you're actually living authentically, the the size or your weight. It's just really or whatever you're going through really becomes secondary.Kori: I love that! And I resonate with that so much? There were pictures I looked at, from before I went through all of my challenges you know, in the last decade. And and yeah, I remember looking at myself when I was 120 pounds and thinking, Gosh. You know, she was so awesome. She was so, you know, beautiful blah blah. And but you know, similarly, just like you came back to a space and said. Actually, you know, I don't want to go back to that person, because I now know how incredibly strong I am. I now know how incredibly resilient I am through all the things that I went through, and you know what my body was helping me the whole time. Take care of me. When I was really struggling to take care of myself, and for that I am so grateful. And now I get to bring that wisdom and share, you know, share my story and help others also feel like, Hey, it's okay that we aren't. You know that size that we used to be. And it's okay to focus on our health and our wellness, and, you know, come back to that space. But the more that we realize that, hey, I can be vibrant now, I can feel like myself now, and I don't have to criticize that part of me. Then then, the more that I feel like that compassion comes in, and we really truly feel more alive.Maureen: This has been so much fun and just so eye-opening. And I really hope that everybody gets to listen to listen to this and hear you speak about this topic. And so, speaking of which, where can listeners find you? How do they catch up with what Kori’s up to?Kori: Oh, my gosh, I love this so you can catch me on Instagram at Kori Rae Wellness, or find me on Facebook. I have an amazing group on Facebook called Lead like a Woman. And it is a place where we are ditching the hustle. And we're really stepping into this space of confidence, and leading with our heart and living vibrant lives through prioritization of self-care and building community and collaboration. Because I really feel like the more that women are lit up from within, the more that we can change the world. So you can find lead like a woman on Facebook. And I would be just truly honored for any of you that would like to join to get inside a sisterhood of space where we're talking about taking care of ourselves, you know, from a loving standpoint, and then taking our missions and our purposes out into the world, so we can truly make the changes that we desire to see in the world, and it starts with us.Maureen: Incredible, and for anyone who is maybe not identifying as a woman at this point in time is that a safe space for them as well?Kori: Absolutely. I feel like, I mean, we didn't really talk a whole lot about that particular subject. But there is, you know, I use a lot of divine feminine type of energy, and whether you identify as a woman or non-binary, or you know, whatever your identification is, you know, I'm also a member of the LGBTQ community, and I understand that there's, you know, a lot of challenges in those spaces. But I always create a space of safety, and you know how people want to express themselves. It really is about, you know, we talk a lot about cycles, and we talk about, you know, living through kind of this cyclical rhythm of self. And so there's there's certainly opportunity here. And I use this term woman as a kind of a reclamation of self. And and so, you know, I get it. It might not be for everybody, but absolutely inside that space is is a very, you know. I'm very, very conscious about creating safe space, and for people to, you know, use the pronouns and and have people use the pronouns that are appropriate for them and them to express themselves. But it really is truly about coming back to our personal values of who we are and leaning into, you know, feminine leadership rather than you know. Patriarchal type, type, leadership. There.Maureen: I just wanted to make sure that the right people were getting the message. Kori: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No. It was a great question. Thank you.Maureen: Thank you so much. Well, I will let you get back to the rest of your day!Kori: Oh, thank you so much, Maureen. It's been truly a pleasure to be able to talk with you, and an honor to share with your community.OutroThank you to our guest, Kori Rae Kovacs BSN RN for joining us today. Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.Thanks and see you next week! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Popular Substack writer, communications executive and 20+ year veteran of the fashion and beauty industry, Sogole Kane joins me for this week’s episode.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeWelcome to Intuitive Style. My name is Maureen Welton. Today's episode is a great one featuring Sogole Kane from Another Fashion Newsletter on Substack. I had such a great time chatting with her about her experience with personal style, her concept of intuitive dressing in 2025. Plus, I got some advice from her on how to bring fun back into my wardrobe after getting really analytical about what I was wearing. Sogole also shares her experience turning the corner on postpartum after about seven years of her body being in constant flux, and how excited she is to be coming back to her self and dressing for herself moving forward. I hope you enjoy.MaureenYou posted a somewhat recent post about wanting 2025 to be the year of Intuitive Styling. Obviously I couldn't agree more. So, for anyone who hasn't had a chance to read your post, would you just kick us off by sharing what what intuitive style means to you?SogoleYes, absolutely. Well, you know, it's a great question. Because I think the crux of intuitive style is ultimately and what it means to each individual person, because that's the true reflection of intuition. Right? So what it might mean to me could be different, to what it means to you or somebody else. And I think that's kind of the bigger message.But but really, what I was trying to get across in that post and also just my general way of thinking for this year and beyond, is to really listen to our instincts, to our intuition, to our gut when making fashion and style choices, because ultimately that's where we're going to see the the best representation of ourselves. And usually when you feel like you're representing yourself in the best way possible, that's when true confidence and comfort in your own skin tends to shine through.And, that's that's the holy grail, right? I feel like the reason we're all here on Substack or on social media talking and about style and sharing outfit photos and engaging in the discourse is because I think we're all interested ultimately in how do we achieve that, that feeling of, feeling 100% confident and comfortable in our own skin and in the image that we are projecting out there into the world.And I think in intuitive style, the way to do it because, it helps us stay true to who we are and to what's important to us. I mean, I'm getting real deep here, but, like, what do we really value? Not just in style and fashion, which can sometimes feels, you know, superficial, which, I disagree. I think it's not superficial at all, but that's a whole different topic. But I think, just in life, like how, how do we what do we value in life and how do we reflect those values in the way that we are communicating to other people? And one of the biggest ways we communicate to each other is through fashion and what we put on our bodies.So, that's really what it is to me. It's about staying true to yourself and expressing that internal feeling you have, outwardly.MaureenLike, mic drop. I couldn't have said that better myself. Just from top to bottom. I think what I'm starting to view this podcast is almost for the style podcast for people who don't care about style. Of course, knowing that you and you and I both do, deeply. But almost this, this idea of, there's not really boundaries on what it means to be stylish, or at least I think we're moving in that direction as a as a culture. I think we're moving towards this place of style is self-expression and, and giving more people, space to, to dress how they want. And, I think this idea of, of tuning inward and bringing what's inside outside is, is really the best way to kind of, I guess, broaden the circle, of people who care about personal style. I mean, everybody's getting dressed every day, and so why can't more people be part of the style community?SogoleYeah!MaureenI don't know if that's ever on your mind too.SogoleOh, well, yeah! I think so, I mean, listen, there's a reason it's the word personal comes in front of the word style is so many times. Right? Because at the end of the day, what we are talking about is deeply personal and and deeply individualistic to every human being on this planet. You know, the way that I interpret a trend or, you know, a pair of pants or the way a look that I'm going for is going to be completely different than how you might interpret it or how somebody else would.And and that's okay. And I think what's happened in this day and age, you know, of social media, which, by the way, is a is a wonderful thing. I think we're so lucky to live in an era where we have such access to incredible images and ideas and, and, and thoughts, you know, all around us, I think that's such a wonderful, environment to engage with and, and be a part of, but ultimately, I think the most important thing is that we have to we're all editors.We have to edit our own lives in a way that makes sense for us. And so you're receiving information and imagery and concepts and inspiration all the live long day, right? You know, you're on your phone, you're walking down the street, you're in a museum, wherever you are. You're constantly being fed information. And it's how you process that information and translate it into your own life.SogoleThat ultimately is what we're getting at when it comes to expressing yourself through personal style. So that's what I think I was trying to also get at in this in this post and in general is that, just because quiet luxury was a huge trend or just because you know, something is popular or you see a lot of people wearing something doesn't necessarily mean that you have to run and go do it, too.Now, if it resonates with you and if it really speaks to you, that's one thing, because that's you having a authentic reaction to, you know, information that you are processing from the outside world, that's great. Like, that's that's what we want, right? When that happens, that's where the magic happens. But otherwise, when you're when you're doing something just because everyone else is or because it's something that's cool or it's a trend that you love, that you think is interesting, but you don't know how to translate it for your body. That's where things start to get a little bit clunky, right? Like that's where we might maybe lose the connection to who we really are and what we're trying to express. And it gets lost in the shuffle. So I always say, you know, absorb it, but take from it what serves you and leave the rest behind.MaureenI think it can be very difficult to, to ascertain whether or not we like something authentically versus just we've seen so much of it that it it's like burned into our brain. Can you share how you might discern that, whether or not a trend is for you versus just something for the world?SogoleOh, I mean, this is like, such a great question. I love this so much. Yeah. I mean, it goes I go back to, the emotional side of it, like, where do you you have a physical or emotional or visceral reaction to something where it really like, like hits you like, and it's so hard to put into words because, you know, at the end of the day, feelings are hard to define sometimes.But for me, it's when I when I see something: an item or a concept or the way somebody put something together, and I have this like innate feeling that will take over where I'm like, oh, wow, I like that. It gets that like immediate reaction, where it's beyond logic. It's not me thinking about, oh, well, maybe like, this pair of pants would look great with this. That's all great. And those are good practices to undertake. But that's sort of, you know, step three four and five. I think step one is that initial gut reaction that you have to something. And so if you see a trend or you see an item, you know, I go back to of course, that, that Juju Viera shell necklace.MaureenI was so ready to talk about that. Yes.SogoleI mean, listen, that was like part of part of what drove that post. And I know I talked about it in that, in that post as well, and it's sort of become, you know, Substack lore at this point. But I do think that, when I first saw that necklace, because, at some point you have to see something for the first time, and then of course, you start to see it everywhere. Right? But I, I really do forget who I first saw it on. I'm sure it was, you know, Leandra Medine Cohen or somebody incredibly fashionable, but, I did see it somewhere first. And my first initial gut reaction was, oh, my God, I need that necklace. Like, it was something about the piece that really spoke to me. And, it just I had that initial emotional gut reaction to it.And of course, you know, when you find out what it is and you go and you do your research and you're like, wow, that is that is, more than I was looking to spend on a necklace at this point in time. And so you bank it and you think about it and it kind of goes on your wish list or wherever it goes.And then, of course, the thing that happens is, you know, you know, of course, you start seeing it everywhere, right? So then you start seeing it on for other chic women or influencers or whoever, and then it starts to bubble up into this like thing, this, this, this kind of entity that almost takes on its own life. I've had so many people comment on that post like, “I really liked that necklace too. But now I see it everywhere. And now I'm like, am I turned off by it now? Because everyone has it and it's not unique anymore. Should I still get it?” Like, I don't know, I still like it, but like I maybe I have the ick a little bit now because it's everywhere. It's not as like unique. And and you know, I think my comment to that and in general about this is like, while I understand the sentiment and and it's not devoid of its own kind of reasoning and value, why like why are you wasting energy and effort worrying about whether or not something is too prevalent or not prevalent enough?Like this goes back to what I'm saying is like that initial gut reaction of like, oh my God, I need that necklace. Then I knew that eventually I was probably going to have to give in and buy it, like it was just one of those inevitable things that in my mind, I was like, well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to walk away from this, but knowing the price of it, you know, again, you put it on ice, you see what happens.And even though so many other chic women started wearing it…I have to be honest, it didn't make me want it more, but it also didn't make me want it less. Like it just kind of was like almost in a way, to be honest, validating the way I was feeling like, well, I mean, the are like, clearly I was on to something when I saw that and I had that reaction, like everyone else is having a similar reaction because a lot of other people are are wearing it.And in the case of that necklace specifically, it's such a small brand that to be honest, I don't know how much like gifting they do. So I you have to believe, and actually, I think it was Grace Atwood that did comment on a post somewhere in Substack that she, she physically bought it with her own money, that she didn't get gifted it. So you have to believe if they're not gifting someone like her, they're probably not really gifting. And so that was also like kind of exciting that these women out there that we all admire and we're all in discourse with like, nope, they're out there spending their own money on things that they love too. And I think, and, you know, I'm using this necklace as an example for the broader concept, which is ultimately, if you love something and you have that reaction to it, that's how you should know whether or not to participate in it and go for it or not. You know, of course, budget and other considerations not-withstanding. But but that gut reaction, the first reaction is, usually the right reaction is what I would say.MaureenConnecting some dots too, right. You are an inherently individual person. And so even if you were to buy the same item and looking at your post that includes this shell necklace, this necklace looks incredibly different on each one of these women that you're referencing because you know, their style is different, their appearance is different. And so it's almost like the only thing connecting these women is the necklace, but it feels really individual on each person because they're individuals. And so it almost doesn't matter at some point that they're wearing the same necklace, because what comes through is the necklace as part of their broader style. And it's not just this, the necklace in isolation.Sogole100 and thousand percent like you really hit the nail on the head. It's so true. And that's ultimately, again, going back to personal style, like, how are you translating, an item, you know, a popular item, a trend or whatever it is? And how are you translating that to make sense for you and your life and your style and just who you are? You know, all of those women pictured, I would argue they're all very chic, they're lovely, they're there, but they're also so different from each other to your point. So I think always remembering that ultimately it's the the spin that you're going to put on that item. That's what's going to make it feel personal and unique and special to you.And how you wear it is going to be totally different. Chances are than how somebody else wears it. And even if you do wear it in technically the same way, you know, you have long hair, that person has short hair, it's going to look different. You know, there's all these elements that we all forget about, that are part of the personal style, you know, lexicon, if you will, that are, that all add up. They're all these little elements and they all add up to create that bigger picture at large. And so I think you make an excellent point.MaureenI just had kind of a silly thought too, which is we each have our own personal context for the item too. Right? So okay, let's say that I also decided to buy the shell necklace, which for the record, I think it's lovely, but it doesn't give me that kind of feeling. But let's say that I did buy it. You know, the people in my sphere of influence that I see daily, like my dad, for example…if I wore that necklace in front of my dad, he would be like, “oh, cool necklace.” And he would have absolutely no context for the fact that all these other people are wearing it. And he would just be like, “oh yeah, you got a cool necklace, love that for you.” Like, you know. And so I think, do you remember Jemima Kirke, the actress, at one point she, she posted on TikTok or something like that. That was like, girls, I think you need to stop thinking about yourself so much. And I kind of feel like that comes up a little bit with this idea of like, oh, it's too oversaturated; I don't I don't want to look like everybody else. I don't want to get the thing. And it's like, it's probably not that complicated. Probably nobody would even know.SogoleTotally agree with you. Like I we all live in this like, Well, not all, but a lot of us, I should say. We we live in the bit of this fashion bubble, especially on Substack or, you know, on social media, depending on who you're, you know, following on Instagram or consuming or whatnot. So it does start to feel like, oh my God, like a little bit tunnel vision, right? Or Stockholm Syndrome is probably a better. This is probably a better analysis. But but yes, exactly. And I think that, just and I think I said something like this in the post as well, like maybe, maybe just like step away from your phone, step away from the content, like take yourself out of the environment for a moment or two and, and then, you know, not only is that going to help you kind of regain some perspective, but it will also just help you again, connect to like what you're liking, what you're loving, who you are and what you're interested in versus what.Like, you know, 17 other women online are currently projecting out there. So I think like, you know, listen, the put down your phone is is is less practical than it probably, advice than it probably should be because I know how hard it is for so many of us who are either content creators and, or, you know, writers on Substack or, you know, just out there in the world.But I think it was for me, it was more like, it was more metaphorical in that we need to take a minute and step away from what we are thinking as the saturation of it all and realize that, yeah, it's it's not that serious. Like, it's just it's a pretty necklace.MaureenSo if we apply the idea of bringing awareness to that feeling that we get when we see [something like the necklace], the next step isn't obvious, you know? Yes, it could be that you buy that necklace. It could be that you don't do anything about it at all. When we feel oversaturated by Pinterest or something like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to disconnect or turn off our phone. To your point, like we still want to know what's going on or it benefits us to know what's going on. But we could also acknowledge that we can take-in in this information, it doesn't mean that we have to act on it. We can just look at it. If we work on this practice of of awareness and sitting with that without always feeling like we need to, to act on it. So that would be, that would be my, style intuition take on, on taking in inspiration. And actually, Kelly Williams and I did an entire episode on taking style inspiration and making it work for you. So if you are interested in and hearing that conversation, that's up on the podcast now, but I definitely agree with you. Sometimes you do simply need to turn off the phone and walk away. So it's kind of a ‘yes, and’ to me.SogoleYep. Agreed, agreed. And I think I said that something along those lines in my post like you walk into a museum you fall in love with, not with a Monet. Are you now going to try to take that Monet off the wall and walk out?MaureenThat’s such a good example.SogoleYou might buy a poster version of it in the gift shop, but and that's, you know, that goes to like a whole different conversation, which is inspired by a dupe or whatever. But but I do think that, sometimes it's okay to just soak it in, admire it, appreciate it for what it is, but just know that, you know, it's not for me right now or like, I'm just I love it, but I'm not going to engage with it right now and that's okay. Like that's great. That's like to have that level of awareness is, is ultimately what we're all going for.MaureenTalking about your personal style a little bit more, how do you decide what to buy or wear? How do you decide what not to buy or where?SogoleI mean, what a question. How much time do you have? Gosh, I mean, well, welcome to the inner workings of my mind, which I becomes so much of my Substack column, but it's such a great question. I think that when I was younger and still figuring things out, in all aspects of my lives, not just with personal style, I think it was so much of it was driven by the outside world and what was going on around me.And you know what? Designers were trending and what was hot and what was everyone wearing and what which is still happening. And out there in the world. But I do think the older I've gotten, I've come to terms with what works for me, what doesn't work for me. I have a very keen understanding of my body, of what I'm comfortable in, what I'm not comfortable in, what works.You know, esthetically, for me, versus what doesn't. And so ultimately I let that, you know, years and years of trial and error and, you know, amassing that knowledge and experience over time. That's ultimately what what will guide me. Right? You know, I think, that and the fact that I was around first time the trend came around.You're like, oh my God, I am old. That's, you know, that's starting to happen more and more like, don't even get me started on the proliferation of these Juicy Couture sweatpants, coming back into style with, like, Gen Z and all over TikTok, which I can't even get into because that's just. Wow. But, but yeah, I think I think the experience, I think a deep understanding of your sense of self, and, and also your lifestyle, I've seen so many read so many amazing, pieces of content and posts on Substack from many different authors about shop for the life you have, dress for the life you actually live. So many of us, sometimes when we shop, we are shopping for this version of ourselves that exists in our brains and in our brains alone. Or maybe she comes out once or twice a year, but she's not who we are every single day, right? And so while that aspiration is lovely and we should not ignore it or discard it completely. That's aspiration. That's not reality of who we are day in and day out. Like my reality is, I'm a working mom. I do school drop offs, I do pickups, I go to soccer practice, I go to the office. I, you know, go out on date night with my husband. I go out with friends on the weekend. That's my life.Like I am not going to galas. I am not, not maybe once a year, to be honest. But like, I'm not going to galas. I'm not going to, gallery openings, every weekend. I'm not going to big fashion parties, every night. Like, that was my former life when I lived in New York. I did all of that. But now that's not my life anymore. And that's okay. But I think knowing that as much as I am such a quote unquote fashion girl at heart and have worked in the industry for many, many years and lived in New York and did all of that, I think I've come to terms with that as much as I want those crazy shoes or that incredible dress, that I would have worn a ton in my former life, it's just not practical anymore for my life now. So I think having that understanding and awareness, of your own self and your lifestyle, that's ultimately what drives those decision making on a daily basis.MaureenHearing you say that almost makes me think back to that necklace, though, and how that necklace could be like a symbol of being a fashion person. It's a little bit glam. It's kind of eclectic. It's looks very handmade. It brings that element of whimsy and cool and in the know, but also brings this like effortlessness that all you have to do is put it on with a pair of jeans if you want to, and then it elevates it and it gives you this kind of experience or this feeling of maybe being back in that kind of more glamorous situation. But it still works for the real life that a lot of people have. I don't know if that resonates. SogoleOh yeah. Hundred percent, I mean, yes, like that's exactly. That's a big part of I mean, listen, I loved it because it was beautiful. I think it's a beautiful it's like a almost like a work of art. Right. That you're looking at in some ways. But yes, 100%. And that's why we have to find out ways to, to that's where the personal style comes in.Like, you know, listen my, my deep down, you know, who I am is, of course it evolves and grows over time, especially as your life changes. But you know who you are. And from a values perspective and personality and character like that doesn't change that much over time. Like, it might shift a little bit here and there, or it might evolve and mature. But you know, our values, generally speaking, aren't going from, you know, a to Z over the course of our life, like so, I think, you know, knowing that and knowing what I've always been attracted to in my life, and knowing that I can't necessarily live that life anymore in terms of getting dressed to the nines and going out, because that's just not my life anymore.So how do I bring that touch of that who I am inside me? How do I bring that to my day to day? Right. And how do I, like, translate that in a way that feels good to me and realistic for my life? And so, yes, like that necklace is a great I don't want to make this entire podcast about like but again, we're using I think the necklace is a metaphor, right?MaureenExactly. SogoleIt could be anything. It could be a handbag, it could be a pair of shoes, it could be a jacket, it could be anything. And ultimately what it comes down to is like, how are you using that item to communicate a sense of yourself to the outside world? And also, we all care about what people think about us, but yes, the outside world. But more importantly, how is it making you feel inside? Like does it make you feel confident and cool and like in the know, like glamorous, whatever those feelings are like, is it making you feel that way? Because if it is, and that's a feeling you really enjoy and you like, then that's amazing. And who cares what anybody else thinks, right?So I think that's ultimately, to your point, is finding ways to translate trends or moments or things that are happening around us in a way that makes sense for us in our lives. And that's ultimately, you know, how we should be shopping to like, I think that we've lost our way collectively when it comes to shopping because of what's happened in social media and the way that shopping has kind of evolved in the past few years. And I think it sounds like, you know, with the amount of no buy and low buy and everything I've been reading about, which is amazing. But I do love that. It's almost like a we're having a bit of a reckoning where we're all going to like this overconsumption that everybody's been engaging and or a lot of people rather, I should say, have been engaging in for years and years.Like, I think we're seeing that it's not the way to go, not just for the the waste and the environmental impacts and the sustainability aspect of it all, but also because ultimately it just clouds your judgment and and it makes you feel like a less true version of yourself. So I think it's all kind of coming to a head in that way.MaureenYeah, absolutely. And just a quick aside on on the idea of overconsumption, I always like to kind of caveat that with overconsumption by design, right? A lot of corporations and companies really want us to overspend. And so I think when individuals are doing that, it's not because the individual necessarily is like trying to to be wasteful or anything like that. I'm trying to take off some of the personal responsibility, but at the same time, we have the personal ability to kind of choose to go against that overconsumption. And I think to your point, there are a lot of people on Substack and other outlets that are really turning against that tide in a really cool way.SogoleOh, I yeah, I love that. And again, that goes back to I agree with you. Like, listen, like I said earlier, we are fed a million images and messages and ads everything all day long. Right. So ultimately, you know, you're not going to buy everything that you see you just can't like.MaureenYeah exactly.SogoleYeah. You can't afford it, that's just ridiculous. But I think it's about using that a filter for your, you know, your personal style and, and other, you know, filters of your life to make those decisions and, and be responsible to yourself and your, you know, your bank account and your closet and your family and the environment and everybody around you and how you do consume and and being mindful of that.You know, it's a huge reason why I have over the past, I don't know, year and a half maybe, maybe more. But solidly year and a half really gone deep on, on secondhand and resale like it's, it's been a big, big, area focus for me, not just because I think it adds so much more personality. Because of the fact that you're finding something unique that not a million people maybe own. But also because of just, you know, the, the, the environmental impacts. Also, generally speaking, sometimes secondhand is more affordable, there's so many benefits to, going down that path. That, that I think it's why it's also kind of grown in popularity thrifting, all of that. I think it's, it's great to see, that sort of take off too.MaureenGoing back a little bit. You were talking about how you've, over time, honed and, and really paid attention to your preferences and what does and doesn't feel good on your body. And I would say this is something I've also done a very concerted effort to do. I'm a little bit at this point right now where I feel like I've discerned so much that I'm starting to become a little closed off to trying new things. I'm working on a really quick post about trying out some things that I never tried before, but I'm curious if you have any advice or suggestions for how to balance, knowing what you like without being closed off to the possibility that you might like something else that you just haven't considered. SogoleThat is that's so, so interesting. Like what? What a great topic. I can't wait to read that post. I mean, I don't know that there's a hard and fast like, you know, rule or, you know, set of guidelines to follow. I think going back to intuition is a big part of it. Right. So I think sometimes we get very methodical about fashion, specifically. And, and it can apply to other areas of life too. But obviously I see it more so in fashion where, you know, there's the capsule wardrobe and there is the, you know, only by five things a year or things become almost formulaic, right? Or like it starts to feel prescriptive to a degree.And I think even though metrics and having an understanding of the data or the kind of more logical side of fashion as it pertains to our lives is helpful, right? Because it's it's helpful to know, like, I generally really like pants. Like, I don't really wear a lot of skirts. Okay. That's like good information for you to know as, like a consumer and as a person, like your personal style. But just because you're a pants girl doesn't mean that you can't be open to the idea of one day, you know, maybe there's a skirt that you come across and you're like, oh my God, like, what a skirt? And then, you know, you've backed yourself into a corner of like, well, no, like I'm not a skirt. Go out and wear skirts. I never and I hear this a lot like, well, I don't wear dresses or I don't do it, I don't do x, y, z. And people have painted themselves into this corner of like, well, this is my style and this is the things I wear, and these are things I don't wear. And it's, and it's very, like it becomes very, black and white, and it's, it's not black and white, it's we have to be open to those shades of gray in between, and we have to be open to inspiration and, and taking that inspiration and again, to the earlier point, I think I saw somebody comment, I'm going back to the necklace because it's a good example, but like, “oh, I love this so much. But like, I don't wear necklaces,” For me and okay, like fair enough. I'm not here to, like, try to convince you to all of a sudden to become a necklace person. But it's like, why? Why have you made that determination that you just don't wear necklaces?And as a result, you're not going to engage in this in this piece. Now, I'm not saying go against your instinct. If that's your instinct and you're not that into it, great. Like that's the whole point of intuition. But if you're really into something, but you're almost talking yourself out of it because it's quote unquote, I don't wear necklaces or like, I don't wear skirts.Like now you're starting to do yourself a disservice, and now you are limiting the scope of where your personal style and where your kind of, you know, evolution of, you know, how you might express yourself, the directions and the possibilities that it could go. And you're you're kind of cutting it off at the knees before it even gets the chance to kind of move in a certain in a certain way.And I think that's when we have to really take a minute and be like, okay, is this really something that I want to stick to, or would I be open to trying a necklace or a skirt? And maybe I could do something different and maybe that's okay. And maybe that's like a new way of thinking about how I get dressed.And I think that's when you start to see new ideas and possibilities take shape. Not only in your own closet, but also in, just, again, how you kind of, you know, put yourself out there.MaureenI absolutely love that answer. And I have just I have a big smile on my face just thinking about it because it's almost full circle. It's like you can't just bring the awareness once, right? You bring the awareness to getting dressed as often and as frequently as possible. Right? You bring it to when you look at that picture and you notice that feeling, but then you also can notice when those feelings change over time and maybe something that you used to love you, you feel differently about in the future.I would try to bring a non-judgmental kind of lens to that and just say, oh, it's okay. I've changed. And if I think back to the person that I was when I was first drawn to that, these things were happening in my life and now these other things are happening in my life. There's been a lot of time in between, and just being open to the idea that something that we once knew about ourselves can change.And it doesn't mean that when we had that feeling, it's not legitimate. It just means that at this moment in time, maybe our relationship to that thing has changed. And that's okay. And like a couple of years ago, I stopped wearing the color red because, you know, I really wanted to bring more peace and, ease to getting dressed. And I definitely needed that at the time. And now I'm kind of coming back around to this idea of bringing in, like, lime green or kind of a rusty orange color into my outfits because I feel like something is missing or I just bring some element of joy. And the idea of bringing that in now doesn't negate the fact that at one point, that color wasn't like bright color wasn't serving me. But it's more like, okay, I needed that for the time, and now I'm ready for something different again, and I'm going to try it. And it's going to be slightly different than that thing I had tried before, and we'll just see how it goes.SogoleYes. Like a thousand times yes. Because style is an evolution. It's all in it. Like our lives are in evolution, right? Like we're not the same person today per se. Like, or we don't have the same life, at least that we probably had ten years ago or 15 years ago. I mean, everything changes and evolves and grows, and so why wouldn't you know your style, be part of that?Like, you know, I think that as long as it's happening in concert with who you are and the life you live and it's feeling comfortable and, and, true to you, then how about it? Like, have some fun with it. You know, I always say in almost every post I do, fashion should be fun. It's fashion, I like it. It's not a science. It's like, yes, we've we've we've turned it in. So many of us have turned it into this thing where we're logging outfits and we're like putting things into apps and we're doing it, and that's amazing. Don't get me wrong, no shade on people who do that. Like I'm jealous. I wish I had the discipline to do something. And that's great. But at the end of the day, it's emotional. It's sometimes not rational. It is, very personal. It's deep, it's complex. It's connected to so many parts of our psyche. But at the end of the day, if it's not bringing us joy, then. Then what's it doing?I mean, it's clothing as it's covering our bodies. Sure. What's important, it's functional, but, But this is so much more than that.MaureenI completely agree. It's to me that it's the inner and the outer together and making those kind of sync up. Like, I got a nose piercing last year and I, I couldn't, I couldn't say more than this other than, like, I looked at myself in the mirror after I got it and I just thought, that's how I feel inside. And now I look like that outside. And just just like deep feeling of, like whole body joy with people that are looking at me, seeing me a little bit closer to how I view myself. So I just hope everybody gets a moment like that because it was really so awesome.SogoleOh, I love for you. Like, I love, I love when that moment happens where whatever the outward thing is, is matching the the inner thing that's like, that's that, that's your goal.MaureenTotally, totally. So we're recording this at the start of 2025. Do you have any other style or personal goals you're excited to work towards this year? Obviously we've talked about intuitive style specifically. Do you have any in addition to that?SogoleYeah. So honestly, for me, I would say, yes, leading with intuition, which ultimately is, is part and parcel with my other kind of, goal for the year, which is to, to kind of embrace joy in getting in, getting dressed and in fashion and kind of also what we were just talking about was having fun.I am in an interesting place now in my style journey, if you will, because my youngest, child is now four, which, believe it or not, and I feel like any other moms who are listening will probably agree with me that, you know, people think postpartum is like a year after you had a baby. I would beg to differ. Everybody is different. And but the postpartum period for everybody, in my opinion, is different. And actually there's been studies that have been done. Yeah, I'm sure we could find that, when I, when I read not too long ago that said that the postpartum period can last up to seven years, which is.Yeah, you know, crazy. Fortunately. Like, I'm not surprised to hear that, to be honest. And so my youngest is four now, and which means I have a tiny bit of distance from, you know, being a quote unquote new mom yet again, and going through, like, the thick of it and and the reason I bring that up is because, you know, so much of my style, was always tied to, you know, my body and my body composition and the way I kind of looked and felt and and, you know, my size.If you will. Especially, you know, going through two pregnancies in very quick succession. It really does a number not only on your, on your physical body because it's a, you know, pregnancy is a very toxic, taxing thing. But on your, you know, psyche, your, your mentality like everything. Right. And so I think for me, where I'm at now is like, I have a bit of distance from all of those very, you know, turbulence kind of up and down and gaining weight and losing weight and, you know, very kind of, you know, roller coaster, if you will, of an experience of, of those first few years of motherhood.And I have that distance now and I think for me, the goal as I head into 2025 is to is to really now I'm finally comfortable in my own skin again, and I think now I can focus inwards on what is, you know, what's bringing me joy, what's making me happy, what is a good reflection of my personal style externally.And just like dialing into that more because, you know, for the past, God, I, you know, up until very recently, and my oldest is, you know, six. So, you know, God, I've been I've been I was pregnant seven years ago. Now seven years, you could argue, I've been in a, in this, like, constant state of flux, like, because your body image and how you, you feel in your body, anybody who tells you that doesn't affect your relationship with fashion, I'm sorry.They're like, yeah, it does. It does affect your relationship with fashion. Now some people it affects positively, others negatively. I'm not here to, you know, render judgment on everybody has their own feeling about that. But the way you feel in your own skin is ultimately your reflection also of your relationship with clothes. And so for me, I'm so excited to again, finally feel comfortable enough in my own skin where I can really hone in and start to own my style from top to bottom without feeling like I need to make concessions for pregnancy, or early motherhood or breastfeeding, or all these other things that tend to happen when women become mothers. So that's kind of my big thing.MaureenI mean, incredible. And I love to hear that you you're starting a new chapter and are able to kind of access this part of yourself that maybe has felt somewhat disconnected, for a while. So I love to hear that you're on kind of, the upward climb there.SogoleYes. We've come out of the postpartum shroud, if you will. And, you know, I will say, yeah, I think the past, the past six months especially, I've really felt it like it's really started to hit home. And I felt much, much better about, about, you know, my style, my body, everything. Like things are starting to feel a little bit easier.Not that it's ever easy with two kids. I know it'll be a little bit easier in some respects. We've sort of settled into that, so. And that's exciting for me to be able to finally have that ownership of my body, my style, all that. I'm kind of regained that. And I'm excited to kind of explore what that means this year, onward.MaureenIncredible. And just to wrap us up, any advice that you'd give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?SogoleJust just, you know, listen to your heart, as cheesy as that is so cheesy, I know. My goodness. Really listen to yourself. And and you are your own best, source. And and place of understanding what will work, what feels good, what feels wrong. You know, you ultimately, it's you that's getting dressed every morning. It's not the twelve influencers that are popping up on your, Instagram feed.It's you. And so, yes, take that inspiration. You know, like, of course, absorb what you feel around the world around you. But ultimately, listen to yourself, stay true to who you are. Have fun every now and then. Experiment. We don't want to feel too, restrained. We don't want to restrict ourselves so much to. To the earlier point I was making.Have a little bit of fun every now and then wear something that maybe she makes you feel a little not uncomfortable, but just, you know, stretches you a little bit like hot, like, I don't know, like, I don't know if I'm gonna like this, but I'm going to try something like this, and and you might hate it. And by the way, that's great. You hated it. You tried it. It's information gleaned. You now know that this thing was not for me. But, you know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Right? Like, have fun. Experiment here and there. But always in a way that feels authentic to who you are. And to who you want to be.MaureenIncredible. I love it, I totally agree. Thank you, for so much fun. It's been so much fun.SogoleI could literally talk to you like the rest of the day.MaureenI think we have to do a reprise episode sometime! Where can listeners find you?SogoleWell, my number one place I'm going to direct you to is, of course, Substack. It's a community I'm so passionate about. I have met so many incredible, people writers, thinkers, stylists, everybody out there, including you, Maureen Welton , on this, on this platform. So I cannot sing its praises enough. So, on my Substack is called Another Fashion Newsletter, which is a little tongue in cheek, but that's, you know, that's that's me.So please find me on there. And you can also always, you know, find me on Instagram. I'm not as active on there, but I definitely, you know, post here and there. And that's just at Sogole Kane. [Editor note: Sogole is also now on Instagram as Another Fashion Newsletter.] But yeah, definitely check it out. Subscribe to Maureen if you haven't. She's incredible. Love your content. You really you bring so many great ideas to the table. And I'm so honored to have been featured here today. So thank you again.MaureenThank you. I really appreciate it. I feel like our work is always in conversation. So that's the best.SogoleThe dream, the dream.OutroWhat a delight having Sogole Kane join me today. I had such a great time creating this episode and hearing more from her. All of her sage wisdom about how to get dressed and make sure it's still fun. If you enjoyed this episode, consider liking, sharing, and subscribing to make sure that you don't miss any future episodes. Episodes drop every Friday.Thank you. See you next week.Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.Our theme music is by Noir Et Blanc Vie. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This week, Stephanie Johnson joins me for a conversation about her Hard 75 Style challenge, how working as a shopping Editor impacted her style journey, and her brief dip into Jersey shore style in high school. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeWelcome to Intuitive Style. I'm Maureen Welton. On this podcast, we explore the overlap between mindfulness and personal style. Today's guest, Stephanie Johnson, demonstrates week over week in her Substack newsletter, The Green Apple, what intuitive dressing looks like in practice. In our conversation, we talk about how her professional experience in fashion has influenced her personal style, how she modifies an outfit for a day in Brooklyn versus a day in Manhattan and about her hard seventy-five style series. I'm delighted to share this episode with you. Let's start by talking about your newsletter, which is how we met. Would you just tell us a little bit about [The Green Apple], please? Yeah. So, I started this newsletter, I want to say two years ago and I wrote like Three newsletters and then I, I kind of stopped sending them out. I got really into it again this past summer and I, I've been more consistent, but it was, it was really an outlet for me to write about what I wanted to write about. I worked for fashion digital magazines previously and a lot of what I wrote about was dictated by an editor or client so I just really wanted to write about style in a way that wasn't filtered and wasn't sponsored. So that's what I get to do. And it's mostly about personal style and just the way we show up authentically in the world and how we dress ourselves. Awesome. Well, I have really enjoyed following along. So speaking of which, you really caught my eye with your seventy-five hard style challenge. Can you share a little bit more about what that challenge is? Yeah! This challenge was started by Mandy Lee. I believe her handle on everything like IG, TikTok, and Substack is Old Loser in Brooklyn. Which is a great name. She started the challenge in 2024 as kind of like a New Year's resolution type thing on social media. And it's an iteration on that, like, seventy-five hard health challenge, which I actually know basically nothing about, but I know that's when you're like very disciplined for seventy-five days. So she just kind of applied it to style. The rules are mostly like get dressed for seventy-five days, document your looks, try not to buy anything new. And, and really understand why you're doing this challenge, like set your goals and intentions. So it could be because you want to save money or maybe you want to slow down what you're bringing into your business. Closet or you just want to get to know your style better. One of the rules I haven't been so great about is she wants you to really rely on your own kind of inspiration. So don't go on Pinterest or TikTok and just copy someone's look. And then another rule is to organize and clean out your closet before you start the challenge. And I believe also after, so you can kind of see like what you got rid of to start and what you ended with. What about this challenge attracted to you at this moment? Why did it seem like a good fit?I started getting into getting dressed, which, which sounds so crazy, but I've been working from home since 2019. So I very much fell into a rut, but I've been trying to get dressed for like two years really consistently. And I saw this challenge last year. And it just didn't feel like the right time for me. I just moved in 2025 and I think I was like, okay, you know, I'd already cleaned out my closet. I purged a lot. I'm living in New York now, which feels like you kind of have to up your style game, so I was ready to take it on starting this January. One thing in particular about your series on this challenge is that you have a particular rating system for how you think about the outfits. Can you tell us a little bit more about your rating system and how you landed on it? Yeah, that was something I just made up because my intention with this challenge besides like getting out of my PJs every day was to really learn more about my personal style. So I rate things on a scale of one to five when I wear them. One is like, this really doesn't feel like me. And five is like this, this does feel like me. The scale is really just based on like my intuition, which I know you speak about a lot in your Substack and just really leaning into authenticity. So it could be like how comfortable I feel in this and how much this may be leaned into my style words. It's just been a really helpful way to look back on an outfit and, and get a sense of how I felt when I wore it that day. It's so fun and so unique to see someone talking about rating your personal style with how it feels and how you experience being in the outfit. Just seeing that as such a focus of of you, how you decide success of your wardrobe, it really resonated with me because so much of the time I think it's popular or accepted to dress for other people and how you're going to be perceived. And just seeing your, your me writing felt really innovative and, and also exciting. And I think really it shows where we're moving as a personal style culture towards caring a little bit more about how we experience our own clothing rather than just letting everything be about how we're perceived. Thank you. That's exactly what I was going for. And I guess I didn't even think of that, but it is a lot about how I feel versus how other people perceive me. One outfit of yours that really caught my eye, was that some of your, you know, I think in general you would say, right, that your style is on the casual side. And I noticed that there were a couple kind of more lounge outfits that you rated quite highly. There's a lot of pressure that lounge clothing isn't stylish or doesn't involve effort or doesn't convey effort and. I was just curious, can you share a little bit more about your experience with lounge and how and why that would be something that you rate really high? It's something I'm kind of working through because I'm not a dressy person. I tend to dress very casual. Like one of my style words is like undone. So if something feels too polished, it doesn't feel like me. Very often if I'm wearing something that feels really comfortable and like layered and it's in a color palette, I like, I'm going to give it a high rating and that tends to be my athleisure outfits. Something I am trying to sift through is. Does this feel like a me outfit because I had fallen into such a habit of always wearing this type of clothing or does it really feel like the type of person I am authentically and want to dress as? So I'm kind of working through that. Some outfits that are really casual might get like a five out of five and some might get like a two out of five because I put no effort in and I just kind of threw on sweatpants. That goes back to the idea of the challenge and your effort overall to to get dressed. Would you share what getting dressed means to you? Like, what is not getting dressed? What is just putting on clothes? Yeah, it's like a very basic definition. It's getting out of my pajamas because... Literally, that's it. I have had a job working from home for so long that I could like roll over and just in my pajamas start working. So fully in the morning, getting out of bed, putting on a complete new outfit. The days when I basically threw on something that's like outside pajamas. I'm like, okay, you didn't really do the thing today. I've had a few days in this challenge where I've noticed that, but some days I'm like, okay, I'm going to wear these leggings. And I'm going to wear high socks with them and I'm going to layer a sweatshirt with a turtleneck and I'm going to put on jewelry. So, I intuitively know when I'm making an effort and when I'm not and how to differentiate those two. Would you say, now I'm putting my, my point of view into this, but like to me getting dressed would be putting on something that I'd be comfortable wearing outside of the house. Do you think, is that any way that you're defining it? Yeah, absolutely. I think I think that's actually a perfect definition. I think there was a time in my life where I probably could have worn PJs outside of the house, but now I want to always feel like I put a little effort in.Sure, sure. And, and societal, you know, during COVID it was particularly, you know, different as for what was okay to wear outside. We were wearing a mask anyway. Yes. So this is kind of a personal anecdote, but I am curious what you think about this. Going back to the idea of wearing stuff at home that you would be comfortable wearing out of the house putting in that effort. A couple years ago, I had more disposable income and I did a one-on-one personal styling session with Allison Bornstein, the stylist. That's cool. It was very cool. And if I could go back, I think the biggest thing that I regretted was I had us focus our conversation on the clothing that I wore only out of the house and I was like anything that I work from home and we don't need to talk about because that stuff is fine. And now if I could play that back I would be like how can I merge the two, how can I make sure that the clothes that I'm wearing at home are also things that I could wear outside of the house, because I also work from home I should have said that. And I have since 2020. Does that idea resonate with you as far as like merging kind of what you would work from home in versus what you're wearing outside of the house or do you view that as a separate? No, that's so smart, and also that's so cool. I need to hear more about that because I would love to hear what she has to say about my wardrobe. But I realized probably two years ago, like working from home was probably going to be my reality for the foreseeable future. And I love it for a lot of reasons, but. In terms of getting up and getting dressed, it, it wasn't the most productive for me. So did I want to spend the rest of my life building a wardrobe that worked like maybe two days on the weekend, or did I want to feel good every day? So that just meant having to blend the two. So even now when I'm planning outfits for this challenge, I try to give myself like two days a week where I build like a cuter and doing quotes like sweat set. So I don't get so overwhelmed being in jeans every day when, when that's still a transition for me. I think there is a way to blend the two. I think previously there was kind of like the work wardrobe versus the weekend wardrobe. And now I think it's the same. Let's talk a little bit about your professional experience working as a shopping writer and an editor in the fashion world. I'm curious if you could share any of the ways that professional experience has shaped your personal aesthetic. In my twenties, I worked for a lot of fashion magazines digitally. So like Who, What, Where and InStyle and People and Glamor and it, it was amazing. But I actually don't think it helped my personal style. I found myself often comparing to other women I worked with who are maybe more stylish or trying to like emulate their style. You also have access to a ton of brands and a ton of clothes, which can get really confusing. I was trend forecasting. So, you know, you can get kind of wrapped up in like, I should be wearing this. This is what everyone's going to be wearing. One perk of the job that I personally don't miss, but I know a lot of people love was you get a lot of gifts, which is, which is so amazing and so nice, but. In the same way you can't shop your way to personal style, you also can't like build a wardrobe off of a bunch of gifted PR pieces. So I actually think I almost had too much access and I was confusing myself. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, you know, the idea of comparing to people who you considered more stylish. What does that mean to you? At the time, it meant the women wearing certain designers to be totally transparent. It meant the women who wore heels to work every day and were really polished. And it took me a while to come to terms with the fact that that doesn't feel like me, like being too polished feels like a facade. Or sometimes I would even try to copy someone's style because they would just, they would just know who they were so much. I wanted it so desperately. So maybe they'd be like, oh, I have, they'd wear these really cool rings that were like heirloom jewelry. And I'd want to go buy like the fast fashion version of that one. What made that cool was it was like part of their family history. So I had to just really learn how to differentiate between like admiring what is cool and what works for someone else and recognizing what wouldn't work for me. Is there anything that you can think of that helped you kind of loosen your grip on that idea of wanting to emulate other people's style? Because I certainly know I've been there and still get there often myself.Yeah. I think it helped having gone through it and doing it and looking back and being like, oh, I spent five years feeling like kind of uncomfortable. That didn't really work for me. And I'm a big list maker. So I actually have a list on my phone. That's like, do not buy, like, do not buy heels. You are not wearing heels. Like do not buy those sunglasses that look cool on that girl. You won't wear them. I think. Hey Mrs. Solomon on Style is a really good job of explaining this, but you can admire something and not own it. So I've gotten better about like, looking at someone else's style and recognizing that I love it and that it wouldn't work for me and I can just appreciate their creativity. Let's talk a little bit then about what your personal style is. How did you decide what to buy and what, what works for you aside from, you know, not buying heels, for example, what are the things that you do gravitate towards? I think Allison Bornstein style words really helped. And I know everyone kind of leans on those, but Heather, I can't, I can't think of her last name, but her handle is pig mommy, which like I'll, I'll never forget. Cause it's so good. She, when I noticed her TikTok a few years ago, she would talk about getting dressed just every day, just get dressed and document your outfits on pin, like a secret Pinterest board. And I started doing that and then I could look back and notice patterns. So that's when I could see like, oh, I really like when things look kind of undone. And for me, that can mean layered or oversized, just, just not super fitted and polished. Or I found the aspirational word was really helpful for me to lean into like a hobby or something I love. I horseback ride. I'm like a true horse girly. So I love. Like Western style. So I always like to incorporate that as my aspirational like I feel really empowered when I'm riding these horses and like a rodeo setting I think it's really cool. So I like that to reflect in my style. And one of my other words, which is so hard to describe is cool. And that forces me to literally be like, what do you think is cool? Like, I think it's really cool when my mom wears a sweater that she knit herself. I think that's so cool. So like, how can I. Have things that feel special and cool to me in my outfits. I love that. And just for anyone who's not familiar with Allison Bornstein’s three words. So They're meant to be three words that encapsulate your personal style. One is your realistic word, something that you actively like when you look at your. Your regulars, as she calls them, the things that you're putting on day after day, they're not necessarily your favorite things, but they're realistic things you're wearing. That is your realistic word. The second word is your aspirational word, which is like when you look on your Pinterest, what are the themes that you might see that you're pinning from other people wearing? And then your third word would be Could be a feeling, how you want to feel in your clothing. You know, for example, would be like warm, you know, approachable, comfortable, things like that. Can we talk then, hearing about your horse girl makes me think of, you know, Texas and I believe that's where you previously lived and you recently moved. So could you share with us like how you're thinking about your style changing with your new environment? Yeah, that's actually something I am really exploring in my seventy-five hard style challenge. I noticed my environment, like even in New York, Brooklyn versus Manhattan really informs me. How ‘me’ an outfit feels. I could feel very comfortable dressed down somewhere and then I might go somewhere in Manhattan and be like, oh my gosh, I really wish I had dressed up a bit more. So I think Austin, because I already loved that kind of Western Americana look like worked perfectly for me. I didn't really have to feel like I was wearing a costume cause I actually dress like that. I'm trying to remember that in New York, like I don't need to dress like how the New York girls dress if that doesn't feel like me, but it is hard to not be like influenced by the place you're at. And, and also, you know, when you think about the climate too, right? Yeah. And, and Brooklyn probably have very little climate in common. Totally. I know too that you recently cut your hair shorter. Which can be kind of fun to mark a big move or life change with a haircut. How are you feeling with your shorter hair? I love it. I change my hair up frequently. I am not very precious with my hair. I'll just kind of do whatever with it. I think living in Austin, the climate is very humid. So styling my hair every day didn't make sense. So I just kind of left it long and with my natural kind of wavy texture. And moving to New York, I was like, oh, I can have fun and cut it short and blow it out. So it's been fun to kind of lean into that. And going back to kind of the idea of being comfortable in your clothes in Brooklyn, uh, for example, and then being uncomfortable in Manhattan in the same outfit, uh, I know this is something I've seen a couple people talk about here on Substack. I don't remember her name off the top of my head, but I'll include it in the show notes. This idea of like dressing authentically but then when it when it hits the real world it can feel so wrong and I was just curious if you have any Any ways to kind of deal with that pain or that discomfort with being your authentic self and then Feeling wrong about it. I mean, is that even something? Am I even describing this in the right way?No, you totally are. I think I'm trying to think of my style more as a spectrum. So like. On one end, maybe there's my sweats and on the other end, it's like, what would I wear to a wedding? Like, I'm not always super casual. So clearly I have a way I feel comfortable when I get dressed up and I think it's kind of just like How you like when you go to work, you don't wear sweatpants, but you might not feel inauthentic in your work clothes that are a bit more uniformed. I'm trying to find a balance when I'm certain places and I recognize that the environment is, is a bit flashier or a bit dressier. Like, how can I still feel like me, but take it up a notch? So when I'm in Brooklyn, like I'm wearing a baseball cap and like a leather bomber and baggy pants and sneakers. And sometimes when I go into Manhattan, like instead of sneakers, I'm not wearing a heel, but maybe I'll wear like slides or like mules and that feels like I, it still feels like me, but it leans more in the environment. So I'm not self-conscious necessarily the whole time I'm there. Cause you don't, I think you can stand out and if you enjoy the standout great, but I would rather just like kind of feel like myself blend in and get what I need to get done in that area. So I guess I'm just trying to find ways to tweak my outfits so they lean a little bit more into that the occasion I'm dressing for. That's such a great example. I mean, I personally think footwear is just such a great way to change the entire vibe of an outfit, especially dress it up or down. Can we talk a little bit about how you feel in your clothing and maybe how you feel like you talk about what it means to you can tell when you're dressing authentically you can tell when you're dressing intuitively. Are there any words that you would use to describe the feeling in your body? Like, you know, do you feel maybe more relaxed? Do you feel that you're, you're short or more confident or your shoulders back or your. Uh, you know, pulling something down. Are there any kind of words that you would use to describe an outfit that feels right? Ooh, that's such a good question. I think I'm going to contradict myself now because I said the whole thing wasn't about being perceived, but I am excited to go out in that outfit and like show it off. Like I'm proud of my creation. I'm like, let's get out. Let's go get a coffee. I feel cute. And it's not so much others are going to think I'm cute, but I'm like, look what I did. So I think that's the feeling I feel the most. Definitely leans into confidence. But yeah, I don't know if it's like a feeling in my body as much as just a knowing that I'm proud of what I put together. I want to clarify, too, the idea of intuitive style or dressing authentically to me Includes the social aspect of getting dressed and we are social creatures and social beings and I think it would be kind of a fool's errand to pretend that we don't care what people think. Totally. For me, intuitive style means being aware of when we're dressing for other people in a way that doesn't feel comfortable. And also being aware of when we're dressing for other people in a way that does feel comfortable without judgment either way. Totally. I don't think those are right or wrong. It's more to me about paying attention. Yeah, no, that's so smart. And like, this is a weird example, but I went to my nephew's birthday party this weekend and I wore an outfit I wear all the time in New York, like once a week. And it was like my loafers and jeans and a sweatshirt and I got to this birthday party and we had to take our shoes off and I felt so silly with like My Gucci loafers on the floor. Like I just felt ridiculous. So I think also like it does matter where you are. You want to feel good and focus on like my nephew's birthday party, not like why did I wear these silly shoes to this event? So I think you're so right. It all matters. And especially when we think about safety too, right? There can be aspects of dressing, especially if you're a less protected identity, like if you're queer or non-binary or trans or even just a female person. If we think of that sex in the city where Carrie gets held at gunpoint for her fancy shoes, you know, it's like she was not safe because of her outfit, in that moment. Knowing, yes, of course, she's a fictional character, but I think we can relate to the idea of like, there are genuine consequences to getting dressed in a way that feels authentic. So it's, it's not like. I don't think it's realistic or even aspirational to get dressed without considering uh, the social environment that we're in. No, that's such a good point, like, context especially. Your example, you know, if someone is queer or transgender and they decide to wear a skirt to an environment that doesn't feel safe, but that feels authentic to them, like there's so many instances where people still can't show up authentically. So it's just something to consider. And I would say this is a very socially aware podcast. We're never going to be recommending that someone wear something that's unsafe. Love it. Let's talk a little bit about how your style has evolved over the years. Have you gone through any memorable phases? I feel like high school was rough. I like don't want to age myself, but for some reason Jersey Shore just had a really big impact on me, unfortunately. I dyed my hair black. I went tanning. I wore like leopard print. My style now that's just, there's nothing about that that leans me. I think I very much looked to other people to inform my style like I kind of spoke to. So, like, if Jersey Shore was the show I was watching, it was that. If it was The Hills, I'm wearing, like, fake pearls like Lauren Conrad. I just... Didn't consider what I liked. It was just like I pulled from other people. I'm happy I experimented because now I can look back and be like, oh, I would not do that again. I think I was just like figuring out who I was in general. Also, Gym-Tan-Laundry. GTL for life. It's so bad. I didn't ever dress like Jersey Shore, but I have the images burned into my brain. Over here on the West Coast we were, we were spared from the culture. Oh, lucky. Would you not, would you not wear a cheetah print like loafers or something today? No, and I've actually, I yesterday was at a thrift store and there was, I hope I say this name right, the Damson Madder, I don't know if I'm pronouncing the brand right, those, do you know those cheetah kind of cargo pants, the leopard print? Oh, cool. They were there and I was like, And they're a great deal. And I, it wasn't me. I'm, I weirdly, there's some animal print that feels more subdued. And I know people think kind of cheetah leopard is a neutral, but it's not on me. So yeah. Yeah. The pass. That's, that's, that's all you gotta know is. Yeah. Is it, is it a neutral for you? No. All right. Answered. Nope. We talked about a little bit about your move and how that's impacting your style. Do you have any style goals that you're excited to work towards this year? Yeah! I've been doing a low buy for two years now. So I try, this might sound like a lot to some people and maybe it doesn't, but I try not to buy last year. It was twenty-four pieces of clothing and this year it's twenty ten in the fall and winter and ten in the spring and summer. And every time I buy a piece, I try to donate a piece just because why did I bring this into my closet if I already had something that worked? So I want to kind of prove to myself I needed it. But yeah, and I also have kind of brands I won't shop with and I, and I try to thrift when I can. So those are kind of my goals for this year. How did you land on the number twenty for this year? Last year was twenty-four because I get paid twenty-four times in a year. So I was like, every time you get a paycheck, you can have a portion of it and go shopping. That was my. You know, my reasoning kind of like a budgeting style goal in mind. And then this year I just kind of cut it back a little bit more. So I was like, okay, you did twenty-four and now let's try for twenty and see where we get. You know, I also recently moved a little bit less recently than you had spent about a year. I have certainly found the experience of moving to change my style a lot and the idea of limiting to twenty pieces seems a little daunting, if I'm honest. I also had some pretty big changes in my size that I've been navigating, but how do you handle that really big, like, culture slash climate change, especially given that you're limiting how many new pieces that you want to bring in. Yeah, I actually do have some exceptions. I also fluctuate a lot with my size. So I never, for example, if I was to need to go up with jean size, I would never not allow myself to do so. So I allow necessities. So that to me is a necessity. Like I need clothes that fit me. Or like a t-shirt or something like I can purchase that as needed. I also don't really limit accessories. And for me, that's mostly like jewelry because I find it helps me wear my clothing more. So yeah. And I don't overspend on it. So it's not like I'm going crazy.This is more like, do I really need another sweater at the moment? Probably not. I have a ton. You have jeans that fit at the moment and you like them. You don't need that dress because you don't wear it. So it's really a way to make me kind of think twice before I add something into my wardrobe. That makes sense. I really appreciate that extra context. You know, sometimes I feel, I feel daunted and embarrassed in comparison to other people's low-buys when I'm like, I, I can't do that. Like, I have two sweaters right now. Like, I, I have to buy, I have to buy new sweaters. So I, I appreciate that, that clarification on, on what your low buys is really intending to do. Yeah, of course, I think clothes should fit you and, and there shouldn't be a limit on how many you need to get up and get dressed. From there, it's just kind of being like, I probably don't need another white sweater when I have a white sweater kind of thing. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them? The thing that helped me most was getting up and getting dressed every day I could and taking a picture of that outfit and then saving it in that private Pinterest board. That really helped me realize what I like to wear. I even went so far as to make like different boards that were like hits and misses. So I could go back and be like, Hmm, it looks like every time I wore X, Y, Z, it was a miss. But every time I wore this, it was a hit. And then you start to find gaps too. I was listening to your podcast recently with Kelly and I think you guys were talking about t-shirt. And how you wear a t-shirt every day. And so you need six t-shirts. Like I noticed I do that too. And I was like, why didn't I just think to buy enough t-shirts. Like, why am I like, why am I recycling t-shirts? So you realize like, oh, I do feel good when I layer or I wear this. And your personal style kind of, it, it finds itself really when you start getting dressed, I find. Totally, and I think, not to steal your thunder on your advice here, but taking a really close look at what you as an individual are wearing. Can really help quiet the noise of external pressure. And again, we're not striving for not caring about other people's opinions. That's not necessarily the goal, but. Really giving yourself permission to lean into the things that do make sense for you. Like, you know, so many of the time, so much of the time you'll see like a capsule wardrobe that includes two t-shirts. You know, and if you see that, it's like, oh, that's all I need. To your point, taking photos of your outfit and really paying attention to what you're actually wearing and what you need. That can help bring that to the surface and quiet those external voices. No, that's so true. And you can realize like you have enough. I think this scarcity mindset on social media can be really prevalent. And when you remind yourself what you own, you're like, oh, I do have enough in most cases. Thank you, Stephanie. This was so much fun. Where can listeners find you? Thank you. I loved this. I loved this chat. My Substack is Estilo de Moda (now, The Green Apple), which is personal style in Portuguese for anyone wondering why I have that. Weird name. I am on Instagram, but I don't post much style content there, but you can follow me at Steph_Johhnson17.I hope we can keep the conversation going. Thank you, Maureen. ClosingThank you to Stephanie Johnson for coming on the pod with me this week. I had such a good time talking with you. And thank you to everyone who's listening, liking, subscribing, sharing, commenting. In less than a month of this podcast being live, we've already had over 2,000 downloads. I'm just so grateful for everyone's excitement and support for what we're doing here. I have a quick mic update. This is the first full episode that was recorded with a microphone! So I'm really excited about improving the audio quality in weeks to come as well. Next week's episode is a great one with Sogole Kane, another favorite on Substack, her newsletter is called Another Fashion Newsletter. Great name. And don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss any future episodes because new episodes are dropping every Friday. See you next week!Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.Our theme music is by Noir Et Blanc Vie.Thank you for listening.Let me know what you thought of this episode! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

On this week’s episode, my real-life friend and previous co-worker, Michelle Handy phD joins us to share her expertise in behavioral science as relates to personal style. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptWelcomeWelcome to Intuitive Style. I'm Maureen Welton. On this podcast, we explore the overlap between mindfulness and personal style. Today's guest, Michelle Handy, is a behavioral scientist, personal style enthusiast and yoga teacher. Today, we talk about the overlap between all of these areas, and so a little bit about Michelle's personal style and generally have a fun conversation. Hope you enjoy.MaureenHi, Michelle. It's so nice to see you. How are you doing today?MichelleI'm doing great. So happy to be here.MaureenI am really excited to talk with you as well. I know we've had quite a few offline discussions around personal style and how that relates to behavioral science. And so I'm just really excited to share what we've talked about with our audience today. And I know that your expertise is so relevant to many aspects of our lives. So let's let's talk about what behavioral science can teach us about getting dressed. So just before we get started, would you please say your first and last name and your pronouns? MichelleHi, everyone. Michelle Handy, pronouns She her hers.MaureenTo kick us off, you're an experienced behavioral scientist. You're also a yoga teacher and personal style enthusiast. So we have so much that we can cover Would you share what behavioral science is?MichelleYeah. So behavioral science is a field that studies human behavior to improve outcomes like well-being and productivity. And it combines knowledge from many different disciplines, including psychology, sociology, economics, even neuroscience. It's essentially the study of why people do what they do and applying it in the real world to make things better. MaureenI love that. And we also used to work together at a Fortune 500 company. And I remember one thing that you shared with me when we were first starting to work together was that behavior is everywhere. I'm paraphrasing, but basically you're like, everything is a behavior. And that really helped click into my mind what you do and why it's perhaps different from other types of social sciences. So that being said, I have a really specific question for you. I'm very online in the personal style space. And, many people aspire to build a wardrobe that aligns with their values, whether that's buying second hand, choosing natural fibers or simplifying or, you know, any host of things. But they may struggle to follow through using a behavioral science lens. What factors do you think can create this gap between, you know, what we're hoping for and what ends up happening with our personal style? MichelleYeah. So, Maureen, you just described something called the intention action gap. This is just a phenomenon that describes that there's often a gap between what people say they're going to do and what they really want to do. What they know is really important for them and what they actually do. It's why New Year's resolutions often fall through. And, healthy eating, working out, going to sleep on time, calling your parents, like whatever we all, like many of us, know that these things are important for us and intend to do it. But when it comes to actually. Executing on these goals. Things in life get in the way. And so in the personal style context, having some sort of a style goal to be more sustainable, for example, or to reduce one's consumption. Like somebody might really want to do this, but then. Struggled to follow through on their goal. And imagine the gap with like an abyss in the middle and. These things called, quote unquote, behavioral barriers getting in the way. There are some things that everyone should know about humans. Like some basic principles. I'll start with three. So the first principle is that people are cognitive misers. This means that our brains want to use the least amount of energy, and a lot of our lives are run on autopilot because it just makes it more efficient to operate this way and not have to make so many decisions on a day to day. But because we're constantly trying to save mental energy, this can make it hard to be mindful of a habit that we have and to break bad habits. Because that takes mental energy to like. Decide to do something new all the time. So the cognitive miser principle can help to explain why people get caught in a pattern of behavior that they might not like. Some other principles are that humans are highly emotional beings. We're strongly influenced by our emotions, even though we like to think that we make every decision totally rationally. So imagine if somebody is going to the grocery store and they have like a carefully thought out list, but they're hungry while they're shopping or stressed. Suddenly the chips look a lot more appealing. And same with shopping. It's like or with personal style. We'd like to think that we make all of our decisions rationally, but oftentimes we purchase something because of an emotional reason. Like stress.And another really interesting principle is that humans are very self-focused while also being deeply social. So what I mean by this is that we have this egocentric bias. That causes us to see ourselves as the main character in our life story. And we're following the hero's journey. So we over represent how things from our own perspective when like we might think that something was a really big deal, but it might not be in the broader context of things. But simultaneously, like so many of our decisions, are guided by our drive to fit in and belong to a group. And so social influences can have the desire to belong and to be perceived well by others, can have a huge influence on personal shopping habits and personal style decisions that lead us to act against our best intentions. MaureenMm. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing. Such a great crash course in behavioral science right off the bat, with the idea of cognitive misers - how we're really emotional make a lot of emotional decisions that could also apply to to getting dressed and shopping. And then also, that context of how, you know, being very social and we want to, you know, fit in with other people. I mean, those are all really important things to know. Just to give ourselves, you know, perhaps grace or forgiveness if we do act out of our own. I don't want to say best interest because that's not really it. But when we aren't acting in line with something that we might have set out to do. MichelleYeah. And the other thing I'll say is that these are like it's really interesting because these principles can explain human behavior in a variety of different contexts from like how we spend our money to how we make our health decisions to how I make decisions about the environment and also personal style and shopping decisions, which is why psychology is such a great field. So that's one thing I want to say. And the other thing I want to say is that oftentimes people are not aware of like the things, the barriers that get in the way of their intentions and actions. So like we have all these influences on our behavior, but like most people are aware of what's influencing their behavior, but they will. Like if you ask them directly, they'll come up with an explanation and say, oh, yeah, that's, that's why I did this. But that's because their brains just our brains just want to make up an explanation. But oftentimes the influences guiding us to do what we do in everyday life are below our conscious awareness. Would you be able to give an example? So, like, let's say that someone is like, I bought this thing. You know, what an example be of of rationalizing, right? You know, you're giving a reason for why, you know, what a good example would be like, oh, it was on sale. Like, is that kind of an example of, of of not really understanding the the influence? MichelleYeah. Yeah. Like you might ask somebody, why did you buy why did you buy that sweater? And they'll say, because I really care about having high quality items in my wardrobe. But maybe the deeper reason is like I have this desire to prove that I am enough and like I've never had expensive things in my life and etc., etc.MaureenYes, yes. That's so helpful. I mean, and I think everything that I'm trying to do here with intuitive style and this idea of dressing intuitively is just, you know because we're not all behavioral scientists and we don't always we're not always going to be aware of like why we're really doing something. You know, I think it's really about. Being able to give ourselves forgiveness and acceptance when we make decisions that are not, you know, in line with what we say that we want, because we can predict that we will continue to make decisions that are not in line with our with what we set out to do. And, you know, the best thing I think that we can do is just say, like, yeah, sometimes that's going to happen. Or even like, you know, from my for my life I had this really great curated style and bought a lot of really high quality things, a lot of things secondhand, you know, really curated. And then, you know, my body changed and I think it was due to just getting older. And, you know, a lot of those things that I had purposefully curated over time, no longer fit comfortably. And so I ended up needing to to rebuy a lot of things that I had purchased before, which meant, you know, I'm buying more, you know, new rather than secondhand because there's a level of urgency. But I also still want it to be stylish. And so when I kind of look back on those choices that I made to to basically survive through that really big life transition, you know, sure. I could say. Oh, I, I'm upset with myself because I bought all the stuff that, you know, on the surface you could say I didn't need because I'd already bought things in that category. But when I look at it more objectively now, I can say, Oh, I didn't need those things because the things that I had, weren't serving that purpose that they were meant to do anymore. So I don't have a question there. I just wanted to kind of share like a little bit more explicit example there of, you know, what I think intuitive style means and Being able to predict that we're going to to make choices that are hard. We can still accept those for what they are. MichelleYeah. I think that talks like I mean, I think the best thing you can do really with personal choices, with style or like I've said, do a lot of health behaviors. Like we always talk about the progress over perfection mindset and like you just have to. Like to have a fresh start and like start from where you are in the present and like let go of things and just try to like live aligned to your best intentions in the moment. Because if you are. Punishing yourself for making a mistake Like the research shows that tends to make people less successful with where they want to be in the long term. MaureenYeah. So talking a little bit more about, the idea of intuitive style and what it means to like trust your own instincts when you're choosing clothing to purchase or, you know, choosing what to wear. I know that, finding connection to our inner voice can be really challenging, especially, you know, recognizing that the that inner knowing is actually separate from our thinking brain. I know I just kind of threw out a lot of jargon there, but. Can you talk through a little bit? Some behavioral strategies that people could employ to to really listen to that inner knowing separate from kind of those that bombardment of thoughts that we might have. MichelleYeah, I have a few ideas. I think like there are constant demands for attention and just noise in our faces all the time and stressors. And so it's really easy and reasonable to be disconnected from our inner knowing these days. So not a behavioral strategy, but one strategy to just connect to your inner knowing and slow things down and become more present in general is yoga and meditation that can help you to develop more awareness of your emotions and notably to be able to. Witness and identify them as they come up and separate yourself from them so that you can observe them as emotions but not be like you are not the same as your emotions. Meditation and yoga helps. It's the practice of observing your emotions and witnessing them and letting them go. And as a result, it helps you to not be controlled by them or to like, helps you come to the realization that like you, your your soul, like you as a being are not. Necessarily what you are thinking and feeling at the moment. So that's that's one thing. But I would say it's a behavioral science strategy to strengthen self trust when it comes to style decisions is to gather some data on yourself. This is also a behavioral science research method. Think back to times when you felt your most confident. And research shows that data. If you think back to past time, it's it's better to think back to times in the past when you felt like you. Think of concrete outfits where you felt really great and confident because it's more accurate than trying to like. Imagine how you're going to feel in the future with a new outfit. So think back to like when you felt most confident and like loved how you were feeling and the outfits that you were wearing. And think about what's the common pattern there. So for example, like, all the outfits that when I think back in my life like recently, are slim, slim fitting, black or navy, natural, high quality material, like 100% cotton and maybe a little more luxurious. so that gives me some data that, oh, I think that there is little risk that if I buy something now that's like a high quality fitted navy sweater, that I'm not going to feel great in it because that's the type of outfit that has always, you know, I've always felt like my best self and that type of outfit. MaureenYeah. I love that. Great example, too. what are the kind of feelings in your body that could indicate that those pieces of clothing, are a good fit for you? Do you feel relaxed or do you feel joyful or do you feel like a certain type of sensation? MichelleOh. That is a great question. I guess it's more like a gut feeling. Probably confident. Probably confident and comfortable and confident. Comfortable in the yoga. Sometimes at the end of class, we bring our attention to our heart space and there's some sort of a warmth and a glow. But that's more like the the end of class glow where I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy. But I feel like I've probably had that feeling like wearing a great outfit. But I would say it has to be. For me, it's a mix of feeling confident, like. Something I'd want to wear when having friends over for dinner. But also comfortable or not like I'm having trouble zipping something up or I can't sit comfortably. But yeah, the important part is. Confident. Confident has to be there. Not just comfortable. Too comfortable. I feel sloppy. Yeah. MaureenNo, I totally understand that. And and thank you for for answering. And, you know, I asked this question because it's a difficult one. Right? I think so much of the kind of the Western culture that I think we were both raised in really tries to disconnect us from the way that we are feeling in our body. And without getting, you know, too political, I think it's kind of revolutionary, too, to actually sit with our feelings and become aware. And I and I ask, you know, what is that? What does it feel like to be confident in your body, to be comfortable not necessarily expecting that we have an answer right now, but really to kind of plant that seed for for you or for anyone listening that, you know, this is a practice and it's not something that is necessarily going to come naturally, but it's something that we can cultivate over time and and really just pausing and reflecting on what we wore and how we felt in it and trying to kind of make that connection between kind of our, our, our brains and what we're feeling in our body. So, so thank you for for bearing with me. It's a kind of a challenging question, um, digging a little bit more on that. You know, you've talked about kind of. You know, wanting to feel confident and comfortable. And there are some certain silhouettes and colors that you like. Just can we talk a little bit more about how you decide what to buy and wear or what not to buy or wear? MichelleYeah. I think that, like, my process has definitely changed. Just work like. Being more responsible with finance, like with finances and stuff like an undergrad in college I was very fortunate and like I just, you know, I lifeguarded and that was just like my find money and I would just make like impulse purchases and just like go out and not be that intentional about it. And I ended up donating a majority of that stuff. I don't think I've kept anything from college, but now, now I can't make a purchase. I am really nerdy and low risk, I would have to say, and I pretty much just gather past data on myself like, Oh, I'm never going to be unhappy with like a flattering navy blue tub or like I'm never yeah, I'm a pretty practical person, but I like, I like my pieces to be practical, but also make me feel attractive. So I'll buy like, luxury yoga, like, like, like lulu or lemon or Alo, but I'm really practical in the way that I dress and I like to buy pieces that I can feel attractive in but can also go on lunchtime power walks because I work from home. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Pretty much just low risk, low risk decisions these days. MaureenYeah. And I'm curious to you know, you talked about maybe having some more like experimental purchases when you are an undergrad. I mean, going back to your your concept of gathering data on yourself, I mean, perhaps some of those experiences provided you data what you don't want to buy anymore. So maybe that's just part of the journey. MichelleYeah. I like this stuff. Also, if it, if it's more helpful, like to be more specific, like the data. Like. Thinking not only the things I am most confident in, but the things that I'd actually reach for the most often versus what you get used. MaureenYeah, totally. Totally. And also, you know, as your lifestyle shifts, maybe that changes to like maybe if you're an undergrad, you're going out. I'm like, yeah, MichelleI did do a different activities then. No, no bars. Yeah, bars. Not anymore. Totally. Totally. MaureenSo we're recording this at the start of 2025. Do you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year? MichelleOh. Mhm. I think. Oh I think my style goals Mori. You recently told me about color analysis. Mm hmm. And I want to continue to carry my wardrobe, to match my color type and to edit out pieces where now I can't unsee. And also I feel that they no longer serve me. MaureenCan you tell me more about, you know, your experience with color analysis and how it relates to like maybe this idea of, of data? MichelleYeah, prior to color analysis. You know I've been a silent this and sometimes I would get into a pattern of buying pieces and like wanting to feel a certain way in my wardrobe and lifestyle, having constraints like it needs to be practical, but that just not getting the feeling that I'm looking for and still feeling too frumpy. And I felt like I just kept making like, mistakes. Not that there's a right or wrong or rule book, but I just wasn't achieving the type of specific feeling I was going for to feel like sporty, but also like well dressed. And I think when I learned about color analysis that helped to explain some of the why, because I wasn't like a lot of my wardrobe was in colors that weren't optimized for my skin complexion and like my hair. And I noticed I can see the difference and explain like why why it works when I do purchase things that are aligned to color analysis and when I find like the optimal path, like I, I personally like to just to stick to that. And so yeah, it's really helped me to understand the why behind like why I felt like I. Was not quite happy with some of my other purchases or why they weren't feeling quite right for me.MaureenSo kind of what I'm hearing and, and I'm also speaking from my own personal experience. So forgive me if I'm I'm overstating this, but just kind of hearing like you did have a sense inherently of like what did and didn't work, but maybe there were again, like those external factors that told you to buy something else instead, you know, like, I mean, I can speak from my perspective, you know, when I lived in the Pacific Northwest, all that everyone is wearing, like the colors that kind of really drained my my skin. So like lots of olive green and orange and burgundy. And so I would I would wear those colors to kind of fit in with the people around me, which I totally respect. Like that's sometimes helpful. And then, you know, when I did color analysis, I realized like, oh yeah, I never really like these colors on me. I just wanted to fit in. And it can be kind of helpful to have that data that's like, Oh yeah, I was right. There was something happening here. And it just helps like build confidence in us when we, when we take like a, you know, when we happen to be super analytical people like we are like you and I are, it can help to see, like, have a rationale for why we might be feeling a type of way. Yeah. And I'm curious your take on this. Like I think once we have that kind of. That data from from doing a color analysis and understanding like what colors are most harmonious. Like it kind of can help build that self trust to a point where you don't need to rely on your color analysis results at some point but you can just use it as like a reference point to how you got to now. But it doesn't necessarily need to like guide all your choices, but it can just be like, Oh yeah, I already knew that. It's nice to have that opinion or that, that, you know, that reference. And now I can use my own discretion moving forward. I'm curious if you have that kind of take on it or do you view it as more like, you know, I'm going to follow this to the tee? MichelleUh, no, probably the the first one. I think also that like before color analysis, I didn't even have any idea what were my best colors and I wasn't like socially influenced. It just kind of felt or maybe I like, I would just like see things on Instagram and like what was trendy and stuff. But I felt like I was like. She's in the dark order. But it was my style, like just shooting darts on the board without a strategy. I feel like now feels like I can have a strategy and like a rationale to back up some of my, like an explanation of why it works essentially to be more strategic with my style choices or to if I want to go off the strategy. And that's also a mindful choice. Like, if yeah, like purposely I want to get yellow gold. You know, that's kind of harmonious, but like, yeah, I'd be surprised when that happens. MaureenYeah, I love that. I love that. And, and, you know, whenever I talk about color analysis, I always try to frame that reminder that color analysis results strive to be harmonious. Right. And that is only one kind of metric by which you can evaluate what colors you want to wear. And, harmony may not be always what we're seeking in an outfit or in our self-expression. And so, like, I love color analysis as a data point that we can use to kind of guide our choices, but also where we want to Go away from harmony to right and just doing that mindfully, should we desire to. So this has been really fun. And talking about behavioral science and how it relates to getting dressed in our personal style. I know that our listeners can find you at your fantastic podcast. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing with Deep Thoughts. MichelleYeah! Listeners, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. And I'm also starting a podcast called Deep Thoughts with Michelle Handy at the intersection of behavioral science, tech, design, thinking and personal growth. And the theme is not as honed-in as Maureen’s, but I like to talk to cool people about topics related to personal growth, like overcoming imposter syndrome or breaking free from perfectionism, social emotional skills that are going to help us. Thrive in 2025, etc. So yeah, you can subscribe to my podcast and we'll have a link for you. MaureenAbsolutely. And basically, to me, your podcast is behavioral science is everywhere. MichelleYes! And everywhere. This is to help explain everything. MaureenYeah, I think it's not that it's not honed. I think it's just that it applies to so many different areas of our life that you'd be doing a disservice to only focus on one area. So I highly recommend Deep Thoughts with Michelle Handy. Well, thank you, Michelle. This is so much fun and I'll see you later. MichelleThanks, Maureen.ClosingThanks for listening to Intuitive Style. This was a fantastic episode and if you enjoy it, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening, or share this episode with someone who you think might be interested. See you next week for an episode with Stephanie Johnson from Substack, and subscribe to make sure you get notified for upcoming episodes. Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.The Intuitive Style logo is by Maureen Welton.Our theme music is by Noir Et Blanc Vie.Thank you for listening.Let me know what you thought of this episode! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

This week, my internet-friend, Kelly Williams joins for a lively chat about the origins of the term Midimalist, how to stay on top of trends without losing your own identity, how Kelly decides what to buy, and her advice for anyone trying to build an authentic wardrobe. Enjoy!Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.Welcome to Intuitive Style. I'm very excited to share this week's episode with you. I got a chance to sit down and chat with the creator behind Substack newsletter, Midimalist. Kelly Williams and her newsletter are such a delight to follow. She's always sharing actionable and insightful style tips, and she's always cheering up the comments section with just delightful commentary and praise. Without further ado, enjoy the episode.Maureen: Hi, Kelly. It's so nice to sit down and talk with you today. How are you doing? Kelly: I am doing so good, Maureen. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Maureen:I'm so excited. I know we've had plenty of virtual discussions over the last couple of months on Substack, and it's just really nice to learn even more about what you're doing with Midimalist and have a conversation around what it means to dress intuitively. Would you please share your first and last name and your pronouns? Kelly: Of course. Kelly Williams. She/her/hers. Maureen: You coined the term midimalist, which to me it signifies you have a great sense of understanding of your personal style and also how your style relates to the rest of the zeitgeist. Could you tell us a little bit about midimalism and how you came up with this term? Kelly: Yes, happily. My made up word that I've really taken to heart kind of started when I began thinking about style and really being intentional with my style. I loved Allison Bornstein’s three word method, and she kind of led me to Amy smilovic of Tibi and Tibi’s acronym, CMC: “Chill Modern Classic” that I know she designs within. I spent a lot of time really trying to figure out my three words, like banging my head against the wall, what are my three words? And the way that I initially came to it was trying to look at myself and my clothes. But Allison talks about how at least one of your words is more of an aspirational word. So I started looking at influencers or individual outfits, photos that spoke to me from like an aspirational place. And I found that in each of those images there would be part of the outfit that was sort of minimal and maybe that was like in color or silhouette, but there was always something that made the outfit stand out. And again, it could have been color or silhouette. It could have been like a special piece that that took the outfit over the top.As I tried to distill that, I was looking at we've got like the Moosgaard sisters on the one side who I did find really inspirational. And they're like, you know, these beautiful Scandinavian twins. And then I also look at like Leandra Medine Cohen, known for her sort of maximalist outfits. And to me, everyone that I really aspire to existed in between those two poles. So then Midimalist came to mind. And as soon as I started to write about it and think about it, it felt like a real landing place for me and my style. Maureen: That was such a great answer and just so fun to hear. And I mean, personally, the Moosgaard sisters and Leandra Medine Cohen, are just absolute style icons for me as well. No surprise there that we have people in common. But I think it's so important to talk about our style influences because, to me, intuitive dressing is not a rejection of, external influences or, rejection of dressing like other people. It's really about how can we how can we take what's useful from looking at outside influences without trying to copy people or, sometimes that can be okay, but without losing sense of our own identity as we get dressed. It’s fun to hear how looking at external influences really helped you understand yourself better. Could you talk a little bit more about, how you balance listening to your own style, intuition and then also being influenced by what's happening around you? Kelly: Yeah. And you know, I'm glad you made the distinction of rejecting outside influences because I find that it's really helpful. In general, I consume a lot of fashion content because I just like thinking about fashion and style, but I try to consume like a wide variety. YouTube videos, Pinterest images, obviously Substack and then a little bit of visual social media like TikTok and Instagram. I'm not on either platform like with a profile, but obviously I can see the content. The distinction that I've made for myself is to stay an inch deep and a mile wide in fashion so that I can kind of create a filter for myself.- Kelly WilliamsWhat's happened for me in the past is that I'll get too deep into one person's style or one specific aesthetic, and then you can kind of lose your own thoughts and feelings about whether that's a piece of clothing or a trend, because you see this person do it or it fits your like preferred aesthetic, and then you're sort of lost and you've lost touch with to the point of this podcast, you've lost touch with your intuition of being able to say, Oh, wait, this part of it, actually, that doesn't work for me, but all these parts do or, whatever the case may be. Maureen: Thank you so much for sharing that because I so relate and I think it's so easy to kind of glamorize someone that we think is stylish online and just be like, Oh, well, they've got it. Let me just do what they're doing. And it'll work for me. And, you know, for me, that's how I ended up having some disordered relationship with shopping in the past where, oh, this person is selling this thing and I'll buy whatever they're wearing and then I'll, then I'll look look good. A lot of those purchases, were not cheap and then also didn't work out. And so that's how, you end up with kind of a revolving door of clothing if you're not careful. I love what you said about an inch deep and a mile wide. I'm going to remember that. That's a great way to talk about the the fashion space. Let's get into your personal style a little bit more. As I spend more time writing in the personal style space, rather than just consuming, I’m becoming more and more interested in the why behind how people dress versus what people are wearing. Because as we've already talked about, you know, getting dresses is deeply personal. So in broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy and wear? Kelly: Yeah, such a good question and I think very much a work in progress in this area. But so I think something that's foundationally helpful for me is that I budget. I got married when I was relatively young and so I didn't have any money. I've always been a budget and then kept a wish list for as long as I can remember. And the how of my wish list has kind of evolved, but I'm also a big believer in sleeping on something and waiting to purchase. I tend to overthink everything, but I don't think I've ever regretted overthinking a purchase and weighing the cost of an item against my lifestyle, against how it fits within the larger context of my wardrobe. I probably say no to like ten things for every one thing that I do. Usually an item that gets bought like fills a true hole in my wardrobe. We could get into the nitty gritty of like a true need versus like what most of us experience, which is like a want, need and need, but it'll fill a true hole in my wardrobe or I just like, feel that visceral attraction. I can't get this off my mind kind of thing. And then a lot of things don't get purchased because maybe I'm unsure of the fit or the color. Oftentimes the cost is too high, so I just like, can't make the juice worth the squeeze. Like if I'm going to spend X amount on an item, I have to really feel like it's going to, like, do something for me, you know? Maureen: I would love to get into the nitty gritty of how you discern a need from a want. This is a question I've been grappling with for a while, and I have a clear sense of, what my personal wants are versus my needs, but I'm having such a hard time kind of putting into words. So I'd love to hear from you, do you have any way to describe the difference? Kelly: Yeah. You know, like I said, work in progress, you and I, solidarity. Maureen, because I feel like that's a true issue that we're all sort of grappling with anybody who's like a consumer of fashion. But I will say, recently I started thinking about and shout out to Reeva left of tripping the Substack because she phrased it as like buying puzzle pieces for your wardrobe. I really started to think about if something that I was buying gives me like a new piece of the puzzle, like a new a new thing that allows me to complete a picture more substantially. For example, I have way too many pairs of jeans. So many jeans. I wear only a handful regularly. And then I have a couple that I sort of like rotate in and out of. And yet I will find myself putting pants and jeans on my wish list constantly. It's a real problem… jeans and then also like basic tees. I could buy a thousand little t shirts and I would have nowhere to wear them. And so I'm really trying in 2025 and I still keep my wish list, but I'm trying really hard to look critically at my wish lists like, well, does this actually like help you complete a new part of your puzzle or is this going to be redundant for what you already own? Time will tell if I'm good at that because, you know, there's still like at the top of my wish list is this like gray t shirt? And I'm like, I can't get myself to take it off my wish list. But I also know that it's it's going to go on the pile of t shirts that I already own. So like a work in progress. Maureen: Yeah! I can just quickly share like the closest that I've gotten and see what resonates to us. What helped me identify needs from once was ruthlessly cutting down the number of items in my closet at a time. Partially this was putting quite a few items just stored away in my closet and then over time actually decluttering a lot of these items. I think it's worth noting, too, that I did have some pretty big changes in my size, and so a lot of the things that I ended up parting with just didn't fit comfortably anymore, which made it a lot easier to part with them. Had they so fit, you know, maybe I would have a few of those pieces still because they were purchased with intention. What I experienced from having a greatly reduced wardrobe was…everything has to be a workhorse. Everything has to be comfortable. It has to be something that I can wash and wear, you know, at least once a week, or I can go a couple of times without washing. Understanding kind of what each garment needs to to practically, like how it needs to function is kind of half of it. And then the other half was like in a particular week, what am I wearing and how many of these items do I really need to go a week between doing laundry? I'm talking really specifically here because that's where the rubber meets the road for me is like I'm doing one load of whites and one load of darks every weekend. In between that I need to have enough things to wear for my real life. And so, you know, some people would say, oh, you only need two T-shirts. I completely disagree because for me, I'm wearing a t shirt every day with a different cardigan on top or a sweater on top. And so I need six or seven t shirts to make it through the week. The biggest thing for me was just changing the time scale on which I think about my clothes. I'm not thinking about how many garments do I need for a month. I'm thinking week by week. What am I wearing? What do I need? And then. You know, how many items does that actually require? And for me, right now, that's about 30 to 40 ish pieces and only a couple of bottoms and actually a bigger variety of tops and then a bigger variety of shoes. So, yeah, I'm just curious, like, what do you think about that? Do you think that having fewer pieces is required to come up with a wish list? Or is that just something that worked for me? Kelly: Well, so you bring up a really interesting exercise and and I'm not saying that this is the way that you approached it, but the idea of paring down your wardrobe to, fewer pieces. And then if we, like, actually physically moved the rest of our wardrobe out of our closet, it would be sort of interesting at what point we would bump up against this sort of need want that we're talking about. Right. Like, okay, so you pare down to the things that you really think, okay, this is the thing I wear all the time and I can really like make a wardrobe out of this. I saw and I followed your Project 333. And so I think that at some point in that for any of us, we would bump up against, like, oh, I didn't include like for myself, I have a really casual lifestyle so I could see me bumping up against. I didn't include a pair of trousers, but tonight I'm getting dressed up and so then pulling the trousers out of wherever, wherever we've stored the rest of our wardrobe and bringing it in. I bet at the end of a week, to your point, we would have actually a very small number of pieces that we actually wore and needed, and we would find those pain points like you talked about with t shirts. Or like I said, if if somebody works in an office and they have, they're thinking, oh, most of what I wear is office wear. And then they realize that, Oh, would I like putting jeans on when I get home or whatever the case is? So it is sort of an interesting thought exercise in that way. And you live somewhere like I do where there's multiple seasons. And so I do think that there's also this constraint around weather that a lot of people have to face. Where I have we have really hot summers in Colorado and then we have really cold winters. And then obviously there's these like shoulder seasons where jackets are helpful and sweaters and stuff like that. When I think about missing puzzle pieces, I'm often thinking of the future season, right? Right now when I look at puzzle pieces I'm missing, I'm thinking about what I what constraint I felt in summer or fall. Also, because those items are on sale and I'm a budget are so I'm shopping those types of things. But usually I don't find that I'm missing anything in the season that I'm currently in, right? Like it's winter here, it's really cold and I'm like, Oh, I'm good, I've got sweaters, I've got jeans, I've got layering pieces, and no one could convince me that I need more winter clothes right now. And maybe in the summer I'll go. Yeah, but, Kelly, do you remember that you really wanted, like, a pair of more substantial boots that kept your feet warm? So there's that, like, hindsight advantage of being able to, like, see something as, Oh, I really could have used that when I needed it. And now enough time has passed that I could like thoughtfully make that purchase. Maureen: Yeah. You bring up a good point. And I think this is something that I use to come up with my wish list, which is like paying attention to when I'm getting dressed in the morning. What am I reaching for that isn't there? And it sounds like, some of this you do in hindsight, but there must be mornings when you, you know, are getting dressed and there's those boots that you're talking about in summer. you're reaching for those, but they're not there. Those are the things that I would consider like those needs. Right. It's like when I had five t -shirts and it's day five and yes, I could wear my jumpsuit, but I don't really feel like wearing that today. That's what I would say, okay, maybe I need 6th t-shirt and or, maybe I'm getting dressed for dinner with friends and I don't want to wear a t shirt right now. I want to wear something a little bit different that might indicate to me, Oh, well, actually, I'd like to have a V-neck long sleeve top that brings a little bit of variety into how I'm dressing. Those kind of things that I'm reaching for but don't have, that's personally how I'm trying to make my wish list. And it's actually to me, I most often make regret purchases when I'm buying for the season ahead because as diligent as I might have been with noticing those needs in the past season when it comes to buying it, when it's not the right weather, I'm forgetting about, you know, how maybe I want another maxi dress or a mini skirt, but when it comes down to it, if it's sweaty, you know, I that doesn't actually feel good on my body when summer comes around and I, I personally find I make better choices when I shop for the season that we're currently in, which, of course, you know, has its own drawbacks as far as like being able to get it or, you know, feeling rushed to purchase it. But anyway, just different approaches, it sounds like. Kelly: Totally. It's and it's really interesting because we all do approach shopping so differently. And I have friends who do impulse shopping better than me and I say better because like I can hardly go to a physical store and walk out with something anymore because I'm like, Oh, I really need to think about this purchase. And so, yeah, everyone's so different in the way that we build our wardrobes is so different. But you know, to, to the point of this podcast, it, it's sort of interesting the way that like as long as you are following your intuition and being really honest with yourself, then there's really no wrong way to shop, in my opinion. Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. And collecting data about your own behavior and your own preferences. Right. And you know, to your point, it sounds like you have data on yourself that, you know, making impulse purchases is not something where you feel comfortable and that is totally valid. Like if if shopping online is something that you have more success with or, you know, going into shopping in a store with a list is more successful for you. To me, that's intuitive shopping, right? It's it's taking that data about your personal preferences and ignoring all the people online that are saying you should only shop in store you should only shop online, you should shop by link in bio. You know, at the core you've decided based on your own data, your own preferences, what, works for you and just going for it. And I think that's that's what we're here for. I love it. Talking a little bit more about your style. How has your style evolved over the years? Have you gone through any memorable phases? Kelly: Yeah. You mentioned a story earlier that really resonated with me because and so my style evolution was really heavily influenced by having kids. I had three babies in three years and once I was finished nursing my youngest and sort of like being able to like own my body as my own again. I remember feeling so lost in my style because I had been following a few influencers on Instagram like a little too closely and then just like mindlessly buying their recommendations. And naturally, these women did not have the same lifestyle that I did. They weren't having babies. They were recommending things that were great for them but did not work for me. And so that was a a memorable phase in the sense that I learned so, so, so much about myself. And and I'm really grateful that there was this collective shift toward minimalism and quiet luxury after I had kids, because fashion felt like it was focusing on buying good basics, good foundational pieces for your wardrobe. And and so I did that right. I bought jeans that actually fit me. I bought nice neutral tops and knits. I really think that anyone experiencing a life change, like you just graduated from college or you just had your kids, you're moving, you're going through menopause, all of those life changes, we have to give ourselves the grace to kind of start from scratch in our wardrobe. And and actually, it would be in those phases that I would tell anyone, like take a step back and really think about what is good for you in your lifestyle, because it's pretty rare that someone on the Internet is, is living the same life as you and they're recommending from their lifestyle. But it might be really different from your lifestyle. Maureen: Yes, lifestyle! And also perhaps physical preferences on how you would like things to fit. So on that topic, how does body awareness influence the way you dress? Perhaps this is a new term to you, but basically body awareness would be, you know, do gravitate towards any specific textures or fits that, feel comfortable or safe on your body. Kelly: Yes. All of my clothes have to lead with practicality because I have youngish kids. My kids are getting bigger now. But for a while when I was kind of building this foundational wardrobe, I prioritized being able to sit comfortably, like on the couch or on the floor, being able to cook food without a sleeve, getting in the way, to be able to like pick my kid up and carry them on my hip without it making my shirt right up or twist around or my dress, you know, also now it's too short. But I've never been someone who wears a lot of sweat pants. I work from home. I will not see a solitary soul in the day except for my kids. And I will still opt for denim because getting dressed in a full outfit, like, really makes me feel like I did something for myself. So and so when it's specific styles, it's usually that I want to feel relatively put together, right? You saw my outfit today when we started this. I'm just wearing jeans and a knit, but I've opted for an actual knit sweater instead of a sweatshirt. And I opted for denim instead of leggings and not because they're better for, the way I look, but because they're better for the way I feel. But I've never been someone who wears a lot of sweat pants. I work from home. I will not see a solitary soul in the day except for my kids. And I will still opt for denim because getting dressed in a full outfit, like, really makes me feel like I did something for myself.Maureen: I love that. I love it so much. Just hearing you say that, you know, getting dressed feels like you're doing something for yourself. I mean, that's what intuitive style is to me, is being able to identify. What works for you. And you know, I think somedays for me that's the same like putting on a pair of jeans that are comfortable enough to to work from home and all day. That sometimes feels exactly to your point, like, oh, I'm ready to take on the day. It's in alignment with, you know, how I'm feeling. And then other days you know, that that does feel accessible and maybe a pair of like, you know, nicer leggings that I could also wear out of the house without feeling that I'm missing that self-expression element that I would be looking for. I think is so important and deciding whatever that means for you on your best day or on a not so not so great date. I think is really important. I also loved hearing you talk about, you know, finding pants that you can sit in. I don't know if you ever went through this phase of having a lot of pants that were punishing, I know, with the skinny jeans era and I know a lot of people are very comfortable in their skinny jeans I am not coming for you, but I know when I wore them I would often get stomach aches and feel just really uncomfortable or, you know, buy a pair of pants that really fit me comfortably because they made my butt look better or whatever. And I right now I'm absolutely loving buying pants that may to some people be considered too big, but to me are just right because I can sit in them and not feel uncomfortable. Kelly: Well, totally. And I, I am so grateful to, you know, this fashion universe and the space that we're in right now because there's all these different silhouettes of pants that we are like we're kind of open minded toward, right? There have been fashion seasons where it's like low rise denim is the way to go. And if you're not wearing that and you're wearing mom jeans and, you know, that's sort of labeled as uncool or like you said, skinny jeans. And right now it feels really freeing to get to choose like really any variety of Jean that you want to wear. I'm so grateful that we are normalizing, buying maybe a bigger size right there. It feels like from a trend perspective, we're all okay saying I sized up in these jeans or whatever and that's freeing because as a millennial, I grew up very attached to the number that was like on my size, right?I still wore my pre kid jeans after I had kids, still wore them for like probably two years. And to your point it was punishing. It was so punishing to myself and really unfair to poor Kelly, who just wouldn't go to the mall and buy new pants.And so truly, the I mean, the last time that I like really, really shopped in a mall was going and saying, I'm going to buy pants that fit me today. I'm going to go to the store and I'm going to try on, you know, four different sizes and figure out which size actually fits me. And I'm going to buy it and I'm not going to care what the number is. And so, yeah, so, so, so grateful that we are existing in this time when it feels like there's just a greater variety. We're not trying to squeeze everybody all these round pat or square pegs into round holes, you know. Maureen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I love to talk with you a little bit about trends. I know being in kind of the minimalist space, I know we're kind of both in that space. In between, I hear a lot about like timeless dressing and avoiding trends. And, you know, my personal take is like, I'm glad there are trends. If there weren't trends, there would be no, no. Now, we wouldn't be able to have this like wealth of different parts to choose from, for example, or, you know, what, if the thing that was the trend at the moment was, was something that just inherently didn't work for us and we weren't able to find things that were in stores right now that that met our need. But we could find it from, you know, the thrift store or, you know, just to me, like a trend really helps us, helps over time, bring freshness and variety and not getting stuck in and one particular time. So I'm curious for like your take on trends and how they relate to to dressing timelessly, if at all? Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I, I will like gladly admit that I am a total trend follower. I like trends. I like the way that you, as you put it, trends kind of allow us to like open our eyes to something that we might not have considered before. Right. So like a couple of years ago when sneakers became fashionable and we're talking like the sambo's. Right. And I was. It was. Such a eye opener for me that someone who's always I've always kind of identified more on the feminine side of dressing. And also I'm seeing girls on the Internet wearing like these great maxi dresses with a pair of sneakers. And I thought, Oh, like that. That's really cool. I like the tension that's in that outfit between the masculine and feminine. I also like that sneakers are a really comfortable shoe option, but I don't have to go full like sport mode to wear any. So I like I ate it up. I remember I got a pair of adidas and I was like, this fits so well in my wardrobe. I feel really like I'm able to self express in a genuine way, even though they were trendy and it was hard buying a pair of handbags at the time because obviously half the internet is telling you to do it and the other half of the Internet is telling you that if you went out and bought some because you are such a fool, because it's just a trend. Yeah. And so I love having one finger on a pulse of trends because it really does let you dip your toe into something that you may not have realized was for you. Right. That even this conversation that we had around denim shape, the shapes of denim. I was a skinny, skinny jean girl. And then when shapely denim, you know, different silhouettes, barrel cuts, horseshoe came out, I thought, mm, I don't know about that, but I did buy one pair just to kind of like get my toe in and I really loved wearing them. And so I collected another pair and, and I liked using them to contrast these in between these days that I was wearing slimmer denim. Now, I love that my wardrobe contains both or not that there's two silhouettes, but like that it contains a multitude of silhouettes. And you know, we talked about having a pared down wardrobe and there's so much good in that. But I also really to be the devil's advocate, I also love being able to have a wardrobe that contains, you know, a good barrel like denim and a good straight denim and a good wide leg. Because, I don't know, it could be that like on a day to day basis, you're feeling a different thing. Or it could be like seasonally where you're like, You know what I am? I all I want to do is put on those wide leg pants and you do it over and over. And my advice to anyone is like, don't get rid of the denim that you're not wearing anymore. I mean, size with standing, comfort with standing, like tuck them away somewhere else if you really think you're not going to wear them, but don't get rid of them because trends do come back around, as we all know at this point. And it would be nice to have it and not have to go out and rebuy it. Maureen: Totally. And I think you just kind of hit the nail on the head with exactly what this podcast is about. I used to have this perspective of like, okay, I really want to write online and be in the fashion space, but I just don't really feel comfortable, sharing what I'm doing as kind of the the law of the land or trying to to assert the, you know, the way that I get dressed as the way that other people should. For many years kind of how fashion influencers and, magazines kind of were were positioned as, you know, quote unquote, experts. And, yes, there is certainly expertise involved with, finding the right brands or finding high quality pieces or really knowing what is coming up trend wise and being able to kind of to be on top of that. And I'm not negating any of that at all. But for me, taking the time to share what works for me and also acknowledge that that is personal. And you know, my choice to only wear full length pants feels really good to me and I have no desire whatsoever to come online and tell people that they should only wear full length pants, but really just share that like it's okay if you want to do that, it's okay if you want to have a multitude of pants options. Really by sitting with ourselves and, and seeing ourselves as separate from that, we're in relation to people online, I think that's how we, we understand ourselves better and can make space for like our personal preferences and just and just be okay with them and, know that disagreeing or having your own way of doing something doesn't mean anything about anyone else, right? Like you and I can dress differently and love and respect the way that the other person dresses. And and I think that's kind of where we're moving towards. I think I hope as the fashion space is like mutual respect and understanding. And yeah, I just I think that's where we're going and I hope that's where we're going. Kelly: I hope so, too. And I and I have to say, like Substack has been a truly special space for me to cultivate that muscle that you're talking about of like, Oh, I can love that for you. And it not necessarily be for me because I think that there's a greater multitude of people posting their outfits or their thoughts and feelings about fashion. And and I found that I'm able to appreciate everyone's outfit as it is on them, but not necessarily feel like, oh my gosh, I have to go try to figure that outfit out for myself. Maureen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. So I just heard some fantastic advice on keeping the pants. Totally agree. Is there any other advice that you would give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them? Kelly: Yeah, you know, I thought about this a lot, so I will say that for me, as I as I mentioned, like it was really important for me to build a foundational wardrobe. And so Irene Kim (김애린) on Substack has an amazing three part series about like building a foundational wardrobe. I highly recommend starting there for anybody who is is building their wardrobe. But assuming that someone has all of the building blocks in place, I am a big fan and we touched on this earlier. I'm a big fan of observing what you like and others and then trying to distill it down. There's so much advice right now and like trusting your gut and don't consume fashion media because it's unhelpful for you. I actually think that like watching a coworker or a neighbor or someone that you see at the gym every day, seeing what it is about their outfit that speaks to you and I think is is helpful, and as you said, it taps into that intuitive feeling. And I went through intuitive eating as a course in different seasons of my life as I've struggled with disordered eating and something that they're really big on is like being able to be in touch with, with what you're feeling and what you're thinking. And I have since kind of expounded on that to say like, well, what would fulfill me physically versus fulfill me mentally, right? So like I might be full of food, but mentally I kind of want to eat a little bit more and that would fulfill me mentally. And so I do think that there's this really crucial component when you're building your wardrobe of like what fulfills you physically foundational stuff and then what fulfills you emotionally. And that's where you just really have to master seeing other people's stuff going. I notice that they wear really feminine tops and I don't have a lot of feminine tops in my wardrobe, so maybe I'll. I'll experiment with the feminine touch. Then there's just such smart people on the Internet who have broken down the style of fashion icons. And so you can use those as a study in clothes, right? A;lison Bornstein has done the three word method for a bunch of popular celebrities or people who are like classical icons like Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. And I think that it's helpful to listen to someone else talk about style and see how they break down style and then go, Oh, what actually resonates with me about Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen is the fact that all of their clothes are oversize. Huh? I didn't I didn't know that before. And now I know that. And now I can look for oversize pieces for myself. So, yeah, I mean, I will sing the song that it's a great it's it's helpful to be on the Internet when you're trying to figure out your style, even though that seems a little counterintuitive. And in some ways I love it. I mean, full circle to just go back to my first question about what is Midimalist and and how, for you that was understanding your preferences as you found them through other people and understanding like, oh, this is the thing that I'm drawn to about that and why or or how that plays out for me might not be exactly how it plays out for them, but I'm still, you know, learning from them and understanding that maybe my space is a little bit different. Maureen: Totally, yes. Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for everything that you've shared as per usual. I'm just in of the kind of self-reflection and an awareness that you have around your style and how you turn that into really cool outfits, too. So thank you again. And where can our listeners find you? Kelly: Yes, please come find me on Substack. It's the only place I really exist on the internet. But my Substack is Midimalist and I'm a major fan of the chat because the people in the Midimalist chat are just like so kind and supportive. And if you are on your fashion journey and really like trying to figure it out, you like there's just a million cheerleaders in the minimalist chat who will tell you you look awesome today or try wearing these kind of shoes. So it's the best. Maureen: I love it. I second that you've really created a great community in that chat, so kudos to you for for making that space for people. Well, thanks so much, Kelly. And any thing that Kelly just referenced in this call, make sure to include links with the episode. And with that, I'll say goodbye.ClosingWell, that was super fun. Thank you again to our guest, Kelly Williams for coming on the pod. It was so fun chatting with you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you did, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.Or, share this episode with someone who you think might be interested.See you next week for an episode with behavioral scientist Michelle Handy and subscribe to make sure you get notified for upcoming episodes. See you next week!Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.The Intuitive Style logo is by Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir Et Blanc VieThank you for listening.Let me know what you thought of this episode! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

You’re listening to the first episode of Intuitive Style!Hosted by Maureen Welton.I’m so delighted to have Dacy Gillespie as our first guest on Intuitive Style. I seriously couldn’t think of anyone better to help me introduce the concept of this podcast. Each episode offers practical tools and real-world examples to help you quiet external noise, trust your instincts, and create a wardrobe that helps you feel comfortable, confident, and truly yourself.Episode TranscriptThis transcript has been edited for clarity.WelcomeHello and welcome to the first episode of Intuitive Style. I'm your host, Maureen. Together, we'll explore the connection between mindfulness and personal style. We're all searching for a personal style, but what if it's been within us all along and we just haven't learned how to listen? Today's guest is all about teaching us how to listen to our intuition.Dacy Gillespie is an anti-diet stylist, author of one of Substack’s top personal style newsletters and all around cool person. Please enjoy this conversation.MaureenHi, Dacy, How are you?DacyThank you so much for having me. It's good so far.MaureenGreat. I'm so excited to talk with you today. I know there's so much overlap between the kinds of things that we're doing online and just really excited to sit down and talk with you today. Just to get us started, could you just really quickly say your first and last name and your pronouns?DacySure. It's Dacy Gillespie and they are she/her.MaureenOkay. Thanks so much. So you are an absolute pioneer in the intuitive style space and you've been leveraging principles of intuitive eating and Health-At-Every-Size in your work as a stylist, well before these were well known concepts. So would you just briefly define these terms and share how you incorporate them into your work?DacyIntuitive eating is, I guess you would call it, a kind of a method or a way of of eating that was written about in a book by Evelyn Triboli. And in the book, there are some principles that are outlined. The basic gist of it is that diets restrict what we can eat, and then our bodies don't get necessarily what they need. And when we're not listening to our bodies, we're not allowing it sometimes everything that it needs. And then we also have kind of a rebound. Like if we're restricting, then often our bodies will try and make up for that, like as you know, as they, you know, should naturally. So the concept of intuitive eating is a is about it's about a lot of things, but it's about kind of trying to learn your body's cues, listening to your body, trying to determine what it needs at different points, and not demonizing that and just allowing that.And generally, when you begin to practice intuitive eating, there's a long period of time, it could be years, where your body is recovering from that restriction and it may feel like it's needing too much, but it's really recovering. Ultimately the outcome, the goal would be to really be in tune with your body's signals and feed it accordingly. There's a lot more, of course, that goes into that.Health-at-every-size is a concept that just simply means that you do not have to be thin to be healthy that people at any size can be healthy, and that we cannot look at someone and judge their health by their size. And again, lots more to unpack there. But, you know, that's the basic gist of it. Health-at-every-size is a concept that just simply means that you do not have to be thin to be healthy that people at any size can be healthy, and that we cannot look at someone and judge their health by their size. MaureenHow do these concepts fit in with your approach to styling? DacyIf you are trying to change your body or if you are not happy with where your body is, it's going to be very hard to get dressed. It's going to be very hard to figure out your style. It's going to be very hard to detach from kind of societal pressures and external messages about what you should wear, because we get the same kind of messaging from diets, right? This is what you should be eating. Listen to this expert. Ignore your own cues. When I first started working with women to help them with their closets over and over and over, I saw that we couldn't make a lot of progress because everyone was trying to change their body or to revert back to a previous body that they had had. And so, you know, we couldn't we could. But what was keeping women holding on to clothes was the idea that they should be another size. And then if they held onto those clothes, maybe that would motivate them or with shopping or, you know, with shopping, it was like, well, I'm you know, I'm going to deprive myself of clothes that fit until my body fits a smaller size. When I first started working with women to help them with their closets over and over and over, I saw that we couldn't make a lot of progress because everyone was trying to change their body or to revert back to a previous body that they had had. And in terms of developing their style, they couldn't look at an image of an outfit or any particular style without relating it to whether it would look good on their body. You know, everything just kind of came back to that. And so it started to be clear to me that we needed to talk about those concepts. We needed to give permission and talk about the fact that, like, your body can be okay where it is. You can work on accepting your body. It's a very long journey. I don't think anybody in this day and age is ever going to get there. But, you know, we need to be open to these concepts if we're going to be able to work on our style.Maureen I mean, already it just so aligned with what I have experienced personally and then I've been in the observing of style online space for a while and I just completely agree that it's it's so difficult to really understand or define your personal style when you can't accept your body the way it is. And it's just such a blocker. You have a notable style column on Substack called unflattering. Just one last definition. What does ‘unflattering’ mean to you? DacyWell, I think we have to start first with what flattering means generally to most people and to most people, it's really something that they strive for. Again, in my experience working with women. For many of them, that was the top priority in their clothing. Whether it was flattering or not was more important than whether they even liked it. Certainly more important than whether they were comfortable. And and yet the real if we kind of like, you know, are honestly looking at the meaning of the word, what it really means in our common usage is to use clothing to look as small as possible. And so I just want to reject that concept entirely. And so to me, I wanted to kind of reclaim this idea of something being unflattering. You know, like the idea that you would never wear you would never choose to wear something that was unflattering. I just wanted to push back against that. And I guess, give everyone permission to not have to aim for that as the goal. MaureenWould you share a little bit more about that idea of giving permission? One thing that I consider sometimes, as I enter the space of sharing what I wear online, there are aspects to being ‘flattering’ that I still resonate with around color or even just sometimes a garment that is flattering is also comfortable because it respects the shape of my body. For example, you know, I have curves. And if I wore something that was boxy and didn't really respect the shape of my body, that also might be uncomfortable because it doesn't fit [how I like]. So would you maybe share a little bit of your perspective on the difference between rejecting unflattering as something that we live within versus accepting the aspects of flattering that also just make sense for us. Do you have a perspective on that? DacyAbsolutely. I mean, I think that there are certainly uses of the word that are not kind of aligned with diet culture or, you know, the beauty ideal. And you mentioned a couple of them. Perhaps you like certain colors on yourself. Sometimes you put on a garment and you just light up a little bit and, you know, and other people would say, that's flattering because you look happy in it or because you look comfortable. But not to put you on the spot. But even the example you gave is that is your personal preference. And so you're able to say, well, I prefer clothes that align to the curves of my body a little bit more, but someone else with the exact same size and shape could if they wanted to reject the idea that that the clothes had to fit the curves of their body. Perhaps you like certain colors on yourself. Sometimes you put on a garment and you just light up a little bit and, you know, and other people would say, that's flattering because you look happy in it or because you look comfortable…. But even the example you gave is that is your personal preference. And they could say, I actually really prefer this androgynous, boxy look where no one can see the shape of my body. I prefer to, you know, not be perceived in that way. And so, again, it's really about making that choice of like, do you want you know, if you break down the components of it, do you choose to do the pieces of it, you know, that are typically aligned with that word? And if so, that's great. That's your choice. I think it's more just like when it's a cultural pressure to conform to that is when it becomes a problem.MaureenTotally following you. Yeah. And I think that's I mean, the whole point of this podcast and, you know, the work that I do on Intuitive Style, which is is basically how do we do the work to to listen to that inner voice so that when we get dressed, we are we're choosing things that feel authentic and maybe quiet the external gaze that we push on ourselves because we've seen it from other people. Do you have any kind of key practices or things that you do with clients or even just for yourself to to listen to that inner voice and that inner knowing?DacyOne of the first things that I do with clients is that I give them really specific instructions for creating a Pinterest board. And so what I want them to do, and it's a very hard thing to do and you can only attempt it. We can never completely, you know, achieve this. But what I want people to do is to be able to look at an image of an outfit and be able to try to separate whether they like the image esthetically or whether the negative thoughts pile in on top of their esthetic preference, saying, well, you could never wear that or that wouldn't look good on you or that wouldn't fit your body correctly. And so what I really want to establish before we talk about fit or, you know, finding the clothes that fit your body, I really want to establish what you like esthetically aside from those things. And it is, like I said, it's extremely hard to do.MaureenAnd in every aspect of your work, you acknowledge that leaving space for imperfection, right? I don't think that we're striving for perfection. And as a recovering perfectionist myself, I think it's so important to always caveat, like, these are things that we're trying. These are things that we're working towards. And I mean, I don't think that from anything I've heard from you, and certainly I don't think that there that there is a version of being able to completely strip what we visually like from, you know, the things that we have in our head. And, if we want to talk about meditation, it's not about trying to quiet those thoughts necessarily. That could happen over time. But to me, it's more about acknowledging when those voices are there and hearing them and trying to decide for yourself if that inner dialog, whether it's supporting your needs or not. I'm just curious if you have any perspective on on any of that or if meditation is even part of your process.DacyYeah, I have tried to meditate many, many, many times over the last 30 years, and sometimes I will pick it up and stick with that. And then and then I had kids and it's funny because but I really, really love what you said about that, about just the noticing. And I think I'm going to start using that as well, because you're absolutely right that, you know, that would be really helpful, I think, for people to hear, to say, listen, we know those thoughts are going to come up.MaureenThe other thing, too, that I've learned through a mindfulness practice is those thoughts that we might have, that we notice they don't necessarily require any action whatsoever. Yeah, just knowing that we are not our thoughts and they're just kind of things that like clouds float through the sky, you know, we're going to have these thoughts and we, especially if we associate our intellect with our thoughts, which I think a lot of Western culture we do that, you know, we are inclined to to take action because I had this thought, oh, that means I need to do something about it. And I think, you know, part of my mindfulness practice is like hearing those thoughts and deciding which ones to act on, if at all.DacyAnd I just to interject. My business, you know, my Substack is called unflattering. My name is Dacy Gillespie, but my business, the name that my business is under is Mindful Closet. And that is because that mindfulness and that noticing and that what I really think of and and name as a pause is a huge piece, I think, of how we work on all of this. Right? Because if you think about the noticing and then not taking action, as you were just saying, that really can come in handy when people are making impulse purchases or when they are tempted to buy a lot of extra stuff. And so that was definitely a part of the impetus for that name. MaureenWell, [switching to] your personal style a little bit. So I'm generally more interested in the why behind how folks dress rather than the what, because getting dresses is so personal as we've been talking about. In broad strokes, how do you decide what you want to buy or wear?DacyThat's such an interesting question. [Not to] overuse the phrase. But I do think it's very intuitive for me. I mean, I really it was something that I started paying attention to probably 15 years ago, maybe a little bit more. And what I started paying attention to was just the amount of ease I felt in certain clothes versus others. I really have always loved fashion, and for a long time I worked very hard to try and be the most fashionable person in the room or to be the most well-dressed, or to show that like I knew what was happening on like Fashion Week, you know, runways. And I finally kind of and I will say also that led to me buying a lot of stuff. A lot of it was secondhand and and it wasn't necessarily an issue financially, but there was still a lot of stuff. I mean, a few years before I started my business, I had two extra clothing racks full of clothes in my basement. And so that process really was what I started personally to kind of that noticing, to figuring out. And at that time, you know, I was in my mid thirties, early to mid thirties, life was pretty chaotic and I just needed I have a lot of anxiety, you know, I have potentially undiagnosed ADHD and what I needed at that time was the most simple and the most comfortable yet also somewhat unique pieces. And so that that was that style evolution. I know. In the list of questions you sent over, you asked about different phases of my style, of which I've had many. Yeah, and most and most people have. But that phase was really very minimalist and it felt really good over time. I am someone who is aware of trends and aware of just kind of how the fashion landscape is evolving. And it's something that I like to keep up on and I like to kind of be able to visually represent that. I keep up on that, you know? And so. Part of the choices I make are little updates here and there, you know. And it again, it is just fun for me. And I really, again, want to give permission and to tell everyone else that you can opt out of that if if that's not something you want to spend time and energy on. But for me, again, it's something I enjoy. And so, yeah, it's a combination. And then it's, you know, pieces of my personal style come from the fact that I work from home, that I have two young kids, that I live in the Midwest. I think my style would be very different if I lived in, you know, as I did many years ago in Manhattan. You know, there was a lot more internal pressure and external pressure to make more of an effort to dress up more. And that sometimes resulted in me being less comfortable. And right now, comfort is is a big priority.MaureenI love that you're having fun with getting dressed right now. I've gone through different phases where getting dressed is so fun and shopping is so fun. And then I've gone through phases where shopping is anything but fun. It is difficult, it's expensive. You have all these inner voices. I'm assuming that comes up with your clients. Have you had any kind of stories where you worked with someone that was not able to have fun with clothing? And maybe through working together, you were able to see that fun aspects come back if they'd ever had it before.DacyYeah, I mean, honestly, that happens a lot and it's super fun for me too. I mean, I just got off of a try on session with the client a couple of days ago who and many people say this, they they always say, oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought. That was actually kind of fun. Yeah. And I think it all goes back to that original concept of these need to be things that you like. I don't know if this has been the case for you personally, but a lot of times what makes getting dress not fun is that you feel so much pressure to please other people. And then also you feel that if you're not doing it in exactly the right way to please, you know, others or to, you know, be trendy, or then there's a lot of feeling bad about yourself. And so I think another thing that probably makes it a little more fun for my clients is that that they have help, honestly. And, and when I just said that, a lot of people feel bad that they're not what they feel, they're they feel that they're not doing it it meaning, you know, getting dressed. Well, it's because we've kind of, I think, been conditioned as women, as females to think that this is something we should know innately. And I think it's really, really important to acknowledge that developing your style, ease with getting dressed. All of those things are skills. Just like accounting is a skill, you know, just like playing an instrument is a skill. I just had someone I talked to the other day and we were just getting started and we kind of reviewed like her past relationship to clothes. And in every phase there was someone dictating what she had to wear. You know, at first it was her mother, then it was maybe, you know, trying to keep up with her friends. And then in when she began working, it was a very clear dress code and, you know, on and on. And so basically, you know, she's in her forties and I said to her, I just want you to be aware that you are in your infancy of developing your style. You have never been able to ask yourself what you want to wear because you've always been told what you had to.MaureenThat's so powerful. So many people when you think about the skill of getting dressed, aside from the fact that probably people don't even think it is a skill, if they do think it's a skill, it's probably associated with, you know, this person that I see online has that skill and it looks like this and I can't do that. So I don't have the skill of style. And I think, you know, in my journey of of dressing authentically and intuitively is was so much of rejecting my attempts to force other people's dressing on myself. And, you know, I'm also having fun getting dressed again because I stopped assuming that to have style meant that I had to mimic someone else and that, you know, every person has style and every person who gets dressed in the morning or even those who don't get dressed in the morning. That is style. And I think to me, it's about accepting whatever your style is, you know, and that is almost the skill is accepting your personal preferences. It's really that skill of listening and and taking that on. I love to see that, that's something that you, experience frequently with your with your clients. Going back to the idea of style revolution and you talked about, you know, that minimalist phase. Any other kind of memorable phases? Or if not, what? Where are you today? DacyAs I said, I loved I've always loved clothes since, you know, as long as I can remember as a child. And so I'll run through my phases real quickly, because one thing that I do with my clients and it's even a column on my Subtack is we talk about Style Stories and and then every time I run one of my group programs, we talk about style stories. And so my own style story is very fresh in my head. And what that means to me is just thinking back through what were those phases? What did you feel good and what were the messages you got? And then that to me is all valuable information in knowing maybe why you've made the choices that you have. And then once you can acknowledge those things, you can decide whether you do want to hold on to that thing you were taught or not. So for me, I grew up in a family where my parents were I guess you take, what, countercultural? And they did not care about clothes or decorating our home or would not allow me or my sisters to wear makeup or get our ears pierced. We were like a brown rice household, you know? And so they did not encourage my interest in clothes at all. And I never had. And we also didn't have much money. I never had the things that the cool kids had. I never had the things that the cool kids had. So for me that really, you know, has been a lifelong thing of trying to notice, like, do I want this thing because it's like the end thing to have or do I want it because I like it? Then in high school, I really am going to date myself here, but I was in high school in the nineties and I really got super into the grunge thing. So like my favorite outfit I remember was like the black and white striped tights under like a pair of cutoff jean shorts in college I, I dressed pretty traditionally and I was a little bit more dressed up than everyone else. And then I would say my twenties were really that phase that I mentioned earlier of, you know, buying and trying a lot of stuff and trying to, you know, just really kind of be a little bit out there, honestly with my clothes. Then then came the minimalist phase and, and I'm still in that. I still don't like to have a lot of clothes, but lately I've been introducing more color and a little more. One thing that is interesting, and I think a lot of people will relate to is, long time, part of my style goal was to look hot.When I started wearing clothes that were unflattering, there was a whole different level of freedom. I didn't have to hold my stomach and I didn't have to worry about how guys would look at me and, you know and that I've never gone back because that's it feels so much better. Since I kind of gave myself that permission, I've always loved kind of oversize clothes and and things with a little bit more volume in them. And so, yeah, I'd say right now, I'm still minimalist, I'm still pretty classic, but lots of volume. Some blocks of bright colors, but not a lot. MaureenDo you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year?DacyYou know, we're recording this, I think, on January 16th. And to be perfectly honest, I don't think I've really processed 2024 yet. Yeah, you have something that I know about myself that I didn't know for a long time is that I do processing slower than maybe other people. I often need a longer period of time to make a decision. That goes for trying on clothes and and shopping as well. And so, no, actually, at the moment, I don't really I don't really have anything intentionally planned for this year.MaureenI think that's super valid, too. You know, so selfishly, I'd love to get your perspective on something that I've been struggling with a little bit, which is wanting to dress authentically for me, which in large swaths of my life I do, but also recognizing that sometimes life is easier or safer when we dress to conform. So, for example, I'd love to stop removing body hair that folks have determined is gross on women. But, you know, also being in a bigger body now, you know, I'm not necessarily in like a state where I'd like to draw more attention to myself in that way. Do you have any recommendations on how to balance that perception of safety with also living authentically? I mean, I'm sure so many people can relate and in different ways.DacyYes. Gosh, I have so many thoughts and I hope I can remember them all to get them. I mean, the first thing is this is the perfect opportunity for me just to acknowledge and for us to acknowledge that as much as we want to wear just what we like, it's not possible for everyone. It really isn't. And the more marginalized your identity, the harder it is for that to happen because you literally might be punished for it. You know, if you're a black woman and you don't straighten your hair and that may prevent you from moving up in a corporate environment or, you know, if you're trans and you could literally be susceptible to violence. And so this is that, you know, you bring up just such a good point that sometimes we can't do that. And in a way, I think this relates back to intuitive eating because one thing I think that people misunderstand about intuitive eating is that you always eat whatever you want, whenever you want. And one thing that they do make a point of intuitive eating is that you still have to plan around your life. You still have to be realistic, right? And maybe financially you can't eat everything you want to eat whenever you want to eat it. Or maybe you're going to be in a meeting over lunch and you need to bring a granola bar, you know, even though that's not what you above all want to be eating then. And so I think that that's what we have to bring in to the idea of intuitive dressing as well as like in an ideal world maybe these are the things I would do, but for me to feel safe right now, it is important for me to do these things. And again, I to me it comes down to a conscious decision. You're not conforming just because you've been taught that what to do and you've never questioned it. You have questioned it, and you've made a conscious decision to say, I wish I could not do that right now, but again, I don't feel safe enough. And so I'm going to continue doing this. Another big thought that I have is that sometimes it just takes time. And so I know when my body has changed. There have been years where I didn't feel like I could show my midsection at all because I just didn't feel comfortable. And then after I truly had a couple of years to get used to that body and that belly, it wasn't quite as scary anymore. And then I could, you know, maybe tuck things and have more high waisted stuff showing. So I think you really have to give yourself grace in that area. And a lot of people will go. So far to the other side that they'll beat themselves up for saying like, Oh, I'm a bad feminist if I don't, you know show my belly or if I don't stop shaving or whatever. And to that, we just have to remember that this is the world we're living in. Of course, we wish it was different, but it's not.MaureenI mean, super powerful. I mean, and I totally love the connection back to intuitive eating. I personally, you know, I think a big part of my style authenticity journey that I've been on over the last year really started with working with a dietitian ostensibly for IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, realizing that I could benefit from intuitive eating and home in every size practice through working with that dietitian and, you know, really taking that lens to my closet and saying. Am I putting these clothes on my body because they're serving me? Or am I putting on these clothes because I think I'm supposed to wear them? And so much of that was I'm supposed to wear them because they make me look this certain way that you would be thinner or taller or whatever. And, you know, there are certain aspects to to your point that I still prefer because they are. And the overlap between my personal preference for fit and comfort, but also do serve in some ways the perception that I still, you know, exists within as a female in this country. I think it's just also related and just that ability to to discern. You know, again, going back to meditation and mindfulness, there's a concept of discernment which is, you know, being able to. To know what is and isn't worth your effort and your energy. I mean, I'm sure you could define discernment in a much better way, but just being able to know for yourself what is authentic and what where it's stemming from. And I personally think that comes through a practice of learning to listen and and going back to learning style as a skill, you know, that comes at a time just like accepting your body for what it is right now as it changes. Is is also a skill that takes time. So just one last question before we wrap up. So understanding that you are a very experienced stylist, as we've talked about. What advice would you give to someone that's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them other than following you on or. Sorry, unflattering?DacyOh, did you say Unfancy?MaureenYeah, sorry.DacyNo, that's pretty much just a callback. Well, that is so cool. Yeah, but Caroline, whatever her name was with the capsule wardrobe. Yeah, that's so funny. Don't worry about it at all. Well, I think one thing I just want to, like, free for you personally. I just want to make sure in what I just said that I gave you permission and that you give yourself permission to wear the safe clothes when you need to feel safe. You know, I just want to make sure. So I think the best thing that people can do is listen to this conversation again. Really everything we've been talking about to mean the first step in any of this and in learning to dress authentically, eat intuitively, you know, make career choices authentically, is that awareness and that noticing And so, you know, take three weeks and just notice when you get dressed, how many things do you reject because you don't like them or how many things do you put back in the closet or throw on the floor because they don't fit? Right. Just starting to notice your preferences. I mean, really, that's where everything starts. And once you have a little bit of a semblance of that in place, I think the next step is, you know, going on Pinterest, getting some visual inspiration, and it just goes on from there. But again, I really think the most important thing you can do is start to pay attention to what you like, why you like it, what you don't like, why you don't like it. Maybe if you have something you don't like, why on earth did you buy it? You know, I mean, almost maybe journaling a little bit about it every day, like what you notice. Truly, I think that's the the best, most impactful thing you could do. MaureenAnd if I could say one step further, is also just taking the moment to say my preferences as they are are valid. Yes. You know, when you take those pants off because they don't fit. Right. You know, someone else could say those pants fit you just fine. But if you put them on and they're not comfortable and they don't fit according to your standards, that is 100% okay. And that's the end of the story. That's enough. I think that's how that acceptance comes generally, is just listening to those preferences and letting that be valid. DacyYeah, I completely agree. And and, you know, I really think of the way that I work with clients is not I always tell them I'm not you're not a paper doll. You're not a Barbie. I'm not going to dress you. My job is to kind of be your guide to help you figure out what it is that you like. Because ultimately, that's the bottom line. If I tell you, you should buy something, but you'll never wear it. That's just a waste.MaureenYeah, yeah, yeah. That's de-influencing right there. Yeah, that's that's the core of ‘under-consumption core’. DacyOh, yeah. The salespeople at Nordstrom used to hate to see me coming. I was. I was always picking everything apart and saying, you know, need that. Yeah.MaureenOh, gosh, I love that so much. Well, I mean, this has just been so much fun. Some of the most fun I've had in a while, actually. So thank you so much for your time. And. Where can listeners find you?DacySure. Well, you know, my Substack is where I'm spending a lot of time. It's dacygillespie.substack.com. Or you can just look for unflattering. And then I'm also I have my business website at mindfulcloset.com and I'm on Instagram at Mindfulcloset also TikTok but who knows where that's going? MaureenSo again, this was recorded early in 2025. I'll also make sure to include all your links along with this episode. Thank you so much!DacyIt was super fun for me, too, Maureen. Thanks for having me.ClosingIf you're hearing this, you've made it through the first full episode of Intuitive Style. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more like it, please consider liking, subscribing, sharing with anyone that you think might enjoy it.Any financial support that you have the means to provide will go to directly improving the audio and potentially editing quality of this podcast. Right now, I'm just one person sitting on the floor of my closet trying to make this make of this thing to share with you all that I feel really needs to exist in the world. And any support that you can provide will just indicate to me that that there's something here and that you want more episodes like it. On that note, we've got a couple other great episodes coming out soon. Next up will be with Kelly Williams from Midimalist here on Substack. And shortly thereafter, a great episode with Michelle Handy, Ph.D., a behavioral scientist. And I'm really looking forward to sharing these episodes and a few more on the way. If you subscribe, you will get notifications when those episodes launch.I hope you'll come back!Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.The Intuitive Style logo is by Maureen Welton.Our theme music is by Noir Et Blanc VieThank you for listening.Let me know what you thought of this episode! Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

It’s time to take Substack personal style discourse into the real world—the recording booth! I’m so excited to share my new podcast series, Intuitive Style. Through solo reflections and thoughtful conversations, we’ll explore how practicing mindfulness and self-awareness can transform the way we get dressed. Each episode, you’ll walk away with strategies for tapping into your own style intuition, ultimately helping you shop and dress in alignment with your values.We’ll explore how to dress intuitively—without judgment.If you’re ready to start listening to your own style intuition, hit subscribe, and don’t miss our first full episode featuring anti-diet stylist Dacy Gillespie. Let me know in the comments, is there anyone you want me to interview?Excited to share this new project with you, Maureen Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe