Napkin Math

Yasir, CEO and solo founder of Chatbase, joins Saba and Charlie on the Napkin Math podcast to break down how he bootstrapped an AI customer support platform from a PDF chatbot side project to $10M ARR in just 3 years — starting before ChatGPT even launched. He shares the real story behind going viral, hitting $1M ARR in 4 months, the chaos of early growth, why he stayed bootstrapped, and how he thinks about building durable AI "harnesses" in a world where models improve every few months.Timestamps:01:38 - Origin story — building before ChatGPT existed14:04 - 0 to $1M ARR in 4 months22:13 - Product evolution — PDF chatbot to B2B AI agent31:05 - Why brand makes every channel easier35:44 - What makes a great AI harness vs a mediocre one43:48 - Moats in the AI era52:43 - Bootstrapped vs raising — Yasir's decision56:15 - Path to AGI through harness improvements59:12 - Advice for new founders: operate like an agency

A founder's stolen app, AI image gold rushes, and why London might just be the next Silicon Valley — all on the back of a napkin.Timestamps:00:00 - Intro00:41 - The stolen app story08:54 - Lessons from the App Store11:36 - Vibe shuffles & business opportunities20:00 - Vibe coding education24:36 - ChatGPT image model28:31 - AI designer niches37:36 - Cursor's $60B acquisition40:57 - London Maxing movement

Saba and Charlie break down the $6.8 trillion wellness industry — period tracking, peptides, air quality, and sleep tech — then pivot to how the best founders (Dario Amodei, Brian Armstrong, Reed Hastings, Elon Musk) spotted emerging markets before anyone else. They close with a hot take on Anthropic's rumoured vibe coding platform and what it means for Lovable and Replit.Timestamps:00:00 - Intro01:06 - Wellness sector breakdown — the $6.8T opportunity04:01 - Period tracking, peptides, air quality & sleep apps25:30 - Building on Rising Tides — why bet on fast-growing markets27:20 - Founders who got in early: Dario, Brian Armstrong, Reed Hastings, Elon36:55 - AI agents, humanoid robots & the infrastructure plays44:11 - Anthropic's vibe coding platform & impact on Lovable/Replit49:00 - Anthropic's brand strategy

How Lego nearly went bankrupt by losing sight of its core product  and what it teaches us about culture, focus, and CEO decisions. Plus, a breakdown of Anthropic's jaw-dropping $30B run rate and what's fuelling it.Timestamps:00:00 - Intro02:04 - Lego deep dive - origin, near-bankruptcy & recovery lessons19:15 - The "wrong CEO" trap & staying focused as you scale34:49 - Anthropic culture - Dario's 40–50% time investment37:22 - Anthropic's growth: $3B → $9B → $30B in one year41:17 - Why the "focus on coding" strategy is winning49:36 - OpenAI acquires TBPN - what's the real play?

Sabba and Charlie are back with a packed episode spanning alternative asset classes, the growing wave of security vulnerabilities in vibe-coded software, and a deep dive into what it really means for Anthropic to be "winning enterprise." They also break down the accidental Claude Code source map leak, debate whether angel investing is just an expensive hobby, and uncover a surprisingly massive opportunity hiding in the hay fever market.Timestamps:00:00 - Intro00:39 - Alternative Investing: Lego, collectibles & vintage tech vs. S&P 50017:10 - Cybersecurity: npm supply chain attacks & vibe coding security risks31:10 - The Claude Code source map leak37:58 - Anthropic vs. OpenAI: What "winning enterprise" really means40:19 - Ideas vs. Execution & the reality of angel investing49:43 - The hay fever market & the Breezometer opportunity

This week Charlie and Saba dig into $1M app ideas hiding in boomer hobbies, why OpenAI killed Sora and what it says about focus, and how to hire the most talented people. Saba's joining remotely from Sicily 🇮🇹, commitment to the pod is real.Timestamps:00:00 - Intro01:02 - $1M Boomer App Ideas18:48 - OpenAI Shuts Down Sora24:39 - The Importance of Focus34:25 - How to Hire Talented People45:38 - Open Floor Meetup Recap52:11 - Moats in an AI World

Sabba and Charlie cover how to build AI products in 2026 with Sabba's MAGIC Framework, why Threads might be the most underrated marketing channel, the big lie about competition, and how AI is giving content creators new ways to extend their work.Timestamps:00:52 - First hate mail, we're famous now02:01 - Why Sabba tore up the entire Q2 roadmap06:32 - The MAGIC Framework, building AI products in 202625:47 - Creativity Maxing, the Channel Surfer viral story28:28 - Threads is bigger than X (and massively underrated)32:52 - The Big Lie About Competition40:28 - AI & Content Creators, giving your IP away to grow

Saba and Charlie introduce the BROTH framework for finding validated startup ideas, dive into the Open Claw (AI agents) hype, break down Bending Spoons' private equity playbook, and celebrate the London Maxing movement, plus debate whether Charlie invented vibe coding.Timecodes:00:00 - Intro00:38 - The BROTH Framework, how to find pre-validated startup ideas25:06 - Competitive positioning strategies (more for more, less for less, etc.)32:15 - Story: founder who sold their company and is now looking for a job34:59 - Open Claw meetup, is AI agents a new product category?42:17 - Bending Spoons acquires Eventbrite, breakdown of their PE playbook47:18 - Meetup's dark patterns (and live app investigation)55:50 - Podcast milestone + like & subscribe57:13 - London Maxing movement & the UK AI fund59:14 - Did Charlie invent vibe coding?65:45 - Should they buy lawyers.ai? Live negotiation66:51 - Sign-off

Saba and Charlie do napkin math on the Cal AI acquisition by MyFitnessPal, share two must-do growth strategies for 2026 (API-first and Social SEO), and break down how Intercom bet the whole company on AI and won.Timecodes:00:00 – Intro00:33 – Cal AI Acquisition Breakdown19:20 – Growth Strategy #1: Go API-First29:33 – Growth Strategy #2: Social SEO36:46 – How Intercom Saved Itself with AI44:27 – The Future of Outcome-Based Pricing49:28 – Wrap up

From an $8M exit to building it all again, Tibo is one of the most unique SaaS builders we’ve met. In this episode, we unpack his regrets after selling, the exact playbook behind his $1M/month portfolio, how he stays viral on X, and what building in the AI era really looks like, all while balancing life as a dad. 00:00 Intro & the $8M exit reality02:07 $1M/month portfolio breakdown06:15 Building in public & authenticity in the AI age16:32 Running 5 companies at once 23:03 Finding product market fit & growth tactics29:39 How Tibo ships so fast (stack & vibe coding)39:13 Hacking the X algorithm45:41 The future of AI video54:22 Does your company have an AI-native product?60:30 What do you do with $1M/month?

We kick things off with B2B SaaS lessons learned from Valentine's Day (yes, really), then spiral into whether the OpenClaw acquisition just produced the world's first one-person billion dollar company and whether Peter Steinberger is the most underrated engineer alive.From there we get into why most SaaS companies are failing at AI, the rise of API-first and agent-first products, and why the stable SEO blog subscription world of SaaS is quietly dying.We also do a full napkin math breakdown on what it would actually cost to buy your own top-level domain like dot napkin and whether that's a business worth building. Oh, and Nike invented jogging. We get into that too.Timestamps00:00 Intro00:35 B2B SaaS lessons from Valentine's Day03:32 How brands invent rituals (Nike, HubSpot, Michelin)10:46 OpenClaw — was this the first $1B solo company?18:05 API-first & agent-first products24:34 Most SaaS companies are failing at AI29:12 How to stay sane in the AI gold rush32:21 Napkin Math breakdown: buying a top-level domain43:34 TLD ideas for the agent era 

This week we’re unpacking the $70M AI.com move, Anthropic taking shots at OpenAI, the rise of agent wrappers, and a quiet $1M solo app no one’s talking about.Timestamps:00:00 – The $70M AI.com Sale03:10 – The $15M Super Bowl Bet: Does the Math Work?10:10 – Charlie's Recent Domain Purchase & Do Dot Coms Matter?18:54 – Getting Scammed by Joe Exotic (B2B SaaS Lessons)24:32 – The Rise of Agent Wrappers26:23 – Are AI Agents Killing Jobs?32:14 – Codex vs Claude Code38:55 – Anthropic’s OpenAI Attack Ad  42:10 – The $1M Solo Fitness App (Happy Scale Breakdown)

The Napkin Math duo is back with another episode. We spend most of this one trying to make sense of AI agents, OpenClaw - the new kid on the block, and why this wave feels messier but more real than the last few. We talk through hype vs reality, what agents can actually do today, and how work is quietly shifting from roles and seats to tasks and systems. We also discuss AI fluency levels, how people are using Claude Code in real marketing workflows, one-person companies, and end with the Anti-AI portfolio.Timestamps00:00 Intro01:15 OpenClaw & the agent breakout moment06:52 Hype vs. reality: shiny tools, boring winners09:45 The Dropbox lesson: abstraction beats raw tech12:43 AI agents, security & where this breaks19:07 AI vs SaaS, leverage & outcome-based work24:58 Are AI agents actually killing jobs?28:23 Levels of AI fluency (and how people keep jobs)37:26 Using AI to save your job, not lose it45:18 Installing skills: marketing, SEO, CRO, execution47:12 When agents go wrong: prompt hijacking & trust52:03 The anti-AI portfolio (what AI won’t replace)57:18 Why live experiences still win

The duo is back with another episode, and this time we’ve got a guest. Jonny Burger, founder of Remotion, joins us after accidentally pulling 14M+ views overnight on X. We chat about vibe coding, prompting motion graphics with Claude, and why building with AI feels different right now. We also get into how Jonny handled the sudden attention, the noise, and acquisition offers that followed.Timestamps:(0:17) Remotion goes viral (accidentally)(2:25) Prompting motion graphics with Claude(6:54) How Jonny has been building for 5 years(10:33) Claude’s GPT-4 moment + vibe coding(15:25) Why Remotion won’t go full B2C(19:57) AI agents, local tools, and seat-based SaaS breaking(32:14) What 14M views actually did to revenue(40:07) Acquisition interest & choosing freedom(46:43) Real-world Remotion use cases (marathons, automation)(50:36) Europe vs. Silicon Valley + marketing lessons for devs

We have some news!!!Napkin Math Podcast is now live on YouTube.The episode starts with a life update (Sabba’s new baby) and somehow turns childbirth into actual B2B SaaS lessons. From there, it spirals into whether Peter Thiel is really a billionaire, why Claude feels like another GPT-4 moment, and how vibe coding is accelerating the rise of one-person companies.It then breaks down Meta’s Manus acquisition, a bootstrapped $1M planks business hiding in plain sight, X’s push into blogs, and finishes with Elon’s ever-expanding list of beefs.Timestamps:00:00 Intro00:27 Sabba’s B2B SaaS lessons from childbirth08:00 Is Peter Thiel a billionaire?09:57 Claude’s GPT 4 moment10:49 Vibe Coding Frenzy14:45 Ralph Wiggum AI agent19:01 AI vs seat-based SaaS23:22 Boom of one-person companies26:11 Meta acquiring Manus31:07 $1M Secret Planks Business39:48 Home-reno & logistics startup ideas43:27 X blogs push, Grok, and Elon’s beefs

Sabba and Charlie are back for a special Christmas episode. A 2-hour deep dive split into two parts.In the first, the chaps dive into the $100M ARR frenzy across AI startups, break down the Claude Opus 4.5 release, and debate the escalating LLM wars between Google, OpenAI, and Anthropic. They also discuss Sergey Brin’s return to Google, the opportunity emerging around the ChatGPT App Store, and why prediction markets are starting to compete with traditional media.In the second, they announce the 2025 awards, sharing their picks for the best product, the best trend, the best distribution startup, and the best comeback story, before closing off with their 2026 predictions.00:00 Intro – Napkin Math Christmas Special00:53 Why founders can hate Christmas01:45 Sabba's baby announcement (and life update)02:55 $100M ARR Frenzy in AI startups07:56 Google AI Studio & Unfair Advantage09:47 Are these AI startups actually profitable?11:37 When will we see $1B ARR companies?12:21 Replit’s long-term advantage & Opus 4.516:10 LLM Wars (Google vs. ChatGPT vs. Anthropic)17:33 Google’s vertical AI advantage explained19:47 Sergey Brin’s return to Google21:19 Is AI a winner-take-all market?31:09 ChatGPT App Store opportunity39:58 What's the hype of Prediction Markets42:47 Startup opportunities around prediction markets50:25 2025 Napkin Math Awards (Best product, trend, distribution & comeback)01:02:27 Why Google now leads AI01:04:12 Bear case for Google01:06:29 Comparing Google’s position to Nvidia’s rise01:08:40 Honorable mention (AI Video’s breakout year)01:09:30 Why models outpaced products in AI video01:11:40 What to watch heading into 2026

After a mini hiatus the boys are back with a banger. 5 startup idea frameworks you can use to start the next unicorn or profitable bootstrapped business. Plus, they inadvertently start the Ben Tossell fan club, and talk about making the UK rich again.00:00 Napkin Math - Startup Idea Frameworks01:43 Startup idea framework 1 - copy your competitors06:23 Framework 2 - build an indirect competitor09:02 Framework 3 - build for a growing trend16:18 Framework 4 - build for new regulations19:54 Framework 4 - build an Open Source competitor26:48 Are any frameworks better for bootstrappers?30:20 Do you need in-market experience before building in that market?31:45 Characteristics of successful founders33:43 The end of Claude Code?35:42 The Ben Tossell fan club39:23 Make Britain Rich Again - Forest City

After spending weeks in hospital with a broken leg, Charlie has had plenty of time to think about B2B SaaS lessons for the pod, and he delivers. The chaps also chat about VEED's new CTO hire, their Fabric 1.0 launch and brainstorm existing businesses that could inject AI to get to $100m quickly.Timestamps:00:00 Intro02:07 B2B SaaS lessons from breaking your leg19:50 Why VEED hired a new CTO25:15 VEED Fabric Launch32:03 Existing companies that could inject AI35:29 Shift to usage based billing39:48 Why courses are hatedLinks:Napkin MathVEEDRamen ClubCosyRamen Space

Today Sabba and Charlie break down the Figma IPO and speculate on which company will be the next Figma. They question whether the chat interface for AI is outdated, and debate if DeepMind might be the greatest acquisition of all time, plus who’s most likely to win the AGI race. They also dig into the UK’s online safety act, why VPNs are booming, and wrap up with a very cheeky “recording blocker” startup idea.00:00 Intro01:21 Figma IPO10:32 Who will be the next Figma17:25 "Tea app", Uber for X, Tinder for X etc...27:25 Is the chat interface for AI archaic?31:08 Is DeepMind the best acquisition of all time?34:29 Who will win AGI?37:01 UK's online safety act and the business of VPNs45:50 Recording blocker free startup idea

Sabba talks about how he uses ChatGPT, Charlie talks use cases for Claude Code and the duo debate whether the UK is an impossible place  to bootstrap. Sabba also share lessons on hiring top talent early, and dissect Duolingo’s $1billion freemium play (with a  15% churn rate) before comparing it to VEED’s freemium vs free trial approach.00:00 Intro00:28 How a VC-backed founder uses ChatGPT06:52 Use cases of Claude Code13:25 Napkin Math AI Animation16:14 Is the UK impossible to bootstrap?20:34 Hiring great talent early on25:31 Duolingo's $1billion freemium approach with 15% churn36:04 VEEDs approach to freemium vs free trial

The boys are back talking about Loveable's insane growth and $200m raise, the dangers of founder liquidity, plus more AI chat (of course). Charlie turns Sabba into BusinessGuruGPT prompting him with how he'd grow an eSIM business to $1m in a year. All this, and more, in this week's episode of NAPKIN MATH.Timestamps00:00 Intro00:30 Loveable raises $200m05:58 Jason Lemkin's Replit disaster09:38 Takeaways from Loveable's raise and the future of AI companies15:53 Generative content opportunities18:19 Making £1m from e-sims30:17 Founder liquidity40:14 Focusing on a single growth channel45:25 Are AI influencers important in the future of marketing48:34 Should we be worried about the AI backlash?53:30 The seasonality of SaaS

Sabba and Charlie kick things off with some napkin math on how to make £26k per year in pure profit selling fans, then dive into a the real money maker; an AI automation consultancy. They talk about the rise of the “VEED (or Indie Beers) Mafia,” and discuss JB's Ahrefs-style tool for LLMs. 00:00 Intro00:20 Portable fan Napkin Math09:22 Startup idea: AI automation consultancy15:28 AI for marketing17:40 The VEED Mafia (Indie Beers Mafia)19:41 Ahrefs for LLMs25:16 Why in person events are so important28:20 The new Perplexity browser36:05 Why Charlie is pausing his SaaS

After a hiatus that included a weekend at Glastonbury and a failed recording, the boys are back, and they are on fire. They break down the business of the Glastonbury festival and some new startup ideas around it, they talk about the Figma S1 filing and the insane numbers behind the software platform and Charlie talks about the future of Ramen Space potentially becoming a nation state.

On this episode of Napkin Math, Sabba and Charlie explain why “small bets” are a terrible idea for most founders. They unpack how VEED ranks #1 for “AI video generator” (and other competitive keywords), explore Ben’s idea for a dream analysis app, the surprising business case for astrology, and how AI agents could thrive in markets like Nigeria. Sabba also shares why he believes the global adoption of stablecoins is inevitable.Timestamps:00:00 Intro00:51 Small bets vs single focus11:03 How VEED ranks number one for highly competitive keywords18:32 Ben's dream analysis app23:48 The business of astrology29:25 AI agent app in developing markets (Nigeria)37:17 The adoption of stable coins globally is inevitable - Sabba41:26 Quick fire round

There’s been a major catfight on the internet this week: Trump vs. Elon. So, Charlie did what any good podcast host would do and distilled the best lessons SaaS founders can take from the drama. The guys also share feedback from listeners, chat about opportunities in TikTok Shop, discuss why companies need to reinvent themselves, and of course, Charlie gets Sabba into trouble.Timestamps00:00 - Intro00:32 - B2B lessons from Trump x Musk fallout03:41 - Napkin Math guest feedback12:51 - When did VEED get product market fit15:15 - VEED's 24 hour hackathon18:24 - Why companies need to reinvent themselves25:28 - The future of AI for VEED and 11 Labs31:55 - Business opportunities in TikTok Shop43:07 - Will ChatGPT be the operating system for AI?45:56 - Evolution of seat based billing

Fresh off the launch of VEEDs new AI, Sabba is excited about the company having built their own fully fledged AI model, so breaks down how much it cost to build it. Charlie, meanwhile has had some bad news about his SaaS app, Cosy, potentially being killed off by Slack's new restrictions. The chaps also fire off some "Loveable for X" business ideas, with the main opportunity in gaming.00:00 Intro00:30 VEED AI video launch 06:17 How much does it cost to build VEEDs AI video engine13:05 Platform risk for Charlie's app, Cosy21:44 Is Apple's 30% cut a good thing?28:38 Lovable for X business ideas40:58 VEEDs hackathon

The boys have made it to 10 episodes, somehow. They are still talking about AI, this time after the impressive Google Gemini launch they discuss the possibilities (including getting a new podcast co-host). Sabba talks about the pastries he had at 10 Downing Street and if they think Jony Ive's $6bn Open AI deal is worth it.Timestamps00:00 Intro00:39 Google's new AI launch09:12 Future challenges of AI video16:29 AI powered podcasts24:02 Claude 4 release27:43 Jony Ive x Sam Altman37:48 Sabba's Downing Street breakfast43:17 Charlie talks AI agents with Monzo ex-CTO

Charlie is back from Dracula's castle and Sabba is back from running a marathon. They are both arriving inspired. They do some Napkin Math on the economics of the running industry and the opportunities there, and how long it will be before they can pump out daily Dracula movies.Timestamps:00:00 Intro04:00 Marathon running breakdown and opportunties12:35 Runna acquisition Napkin Math25:18 Building interesting things vs networking28:31 How to stick to ideas40:08 How long before we can make feature length AI films54:32 Ramen Club launch party

After 7 beautiful episodes, the MRR show is dead. But fear not, Napkin Math is born from its ashes. Sabba and Charlie discuss the performance of the show, dig into where Sabba invests his angel money, do a business breakdown (some actual napkin math) before going on a tirade on founders why founders aren't working hard enough...Timestamps00:00 Intro00:23 New podcast name05:27 Podcast growth numbers16:22 Listener Labs napkin math23:49 Sabba's angel investing strategy28:03 Sabba's lunch hack36:23 How hard do founders need to work?46:50 Long term vs short term revenue

Sabba is tired after being at a trade show all week for VEED, but was it worth it? Sabba and Charlie discuss the cost and results. But there's nothing better than a pick me up recording with BBQ crisp-eating Charlie Ward, who finally has some MRR for his SaaS app. The chaps talk all things AI, opportunities, SaaS drama and more.Timestamps00:00 Intro01:20 How much does a SaaS trade show cost?05:56 What makes an entertaining video according to VEED09:32 Rippling vs Deel drama update11:29 AI image generation opportunities16:24 Sabba gets upset19:30 Cool opportunities in the AI image generation space22:13 AI products to help user research28:35 Other AI ideas32:08 Will we get AI fatigue?33:01 Scam call curiosity35:34 Loveable 2.0 release43:41 Charlie has some MRR46:33 Matthew McConaughey's audiobook

Sabba went to Sri Lanka and came back with fire in his belly. He's ready to make money from the tariffs and so he discusses with Charlie how he'd do it. This got them thinking about the lack of energy in the US at the moment, and why they're bullish on the UK as a place to build. They wrap up talking about the biggest mega trend to make money with in 2025.Timestamps00:00 - Intro00:27 What Sabba learned about business in Sri Lanka03:10 VEED's billboard ad cost and results07:38 Tariffs chat11:33 Making money from the tariffs15:25 Europe vs USA vs UK20:34 The evolution of "make something people search for"23:27 Sabba's mega trend - AI wrappers32:17 The future of AI products37:50 Charlie's coworking space update44:49 Charlie's vending machine business

B2B SaaS drama has got spicy recently, with both 11x and Deel making headlines. Sabba and Charlie give their take on why the companies got in hot water and if it's justified. Sabba also gives his thoughts on the future of VEED as they storm towards their $100m ARR goal and what happens next for the company.Timestamps00:00 MRR Show 00501:06 Harry Dry's marketing course08:02 The 11x drama14:16 Deel drama17:50 Do you need an audience?24:55 Loom exit31:55 The future of VEED35:01 Studio Ghibli virality39:47 The future of AI image generation

This week Sabba and Charlie still struggle to get their audio recorded properly* but the content is top notch. Dubbed the UK's answer to My First Million, the two kick off with debating if the UK is better than the US for building a startup. Sabba questions Charlie's sanity starting a coworking space in London, before explaining how much VEED spent on bright green advertising on the NYC subway.00:00 Intro00:04 Charlie almost gets robbed by a creative director03:25 Is the UK a good place to build a startup?16:09 What to do when you're successful but unhappy24:45 Charlie's new coworking space38:34 One thing vs multiple projects44:33 Breakdown of VEED's NYC subway ad*(salty Producer James writing this)

Charlie and Sabba are back three weeks later for their weekly podcast, bringing you some banger business ideas. The chaps dive into Exploding Topics and discuss opportunities in ADHD, creating a Third Space style martial arts gym and building a better dentist. They're also bullish on Project Europe.Timestamps:00:00 Intro02:39 VC fund for consumer brands05:23 Charlie's consumer trend idea22:45 Innovating in the health space24:48 High end martial arts gym33:38 AI Agents43:18 Model Context Protocol49:24 Project Europe

Charlie and Sabba are back, fighting through a challenging remote connection, bringing you a cracking set of business ideas. Charlie brings a few interesting product discoveries from Indie Beers in Lisbon and Sabba stumbled across a $5-10k MRR idea while in a Ford Fiesta.Timestamps00:00 The MRR Show ep 201:28 D*ck measuring app03:52 Funeral directory business08:16 Feedback on episode 113:48 Car error code business idea23:02 How to find new business ideas

Hello and welcome to the pilot episode of The MRR Show, with Charlie Ward and Sabba Keynejad. Charlie is the founder of Ramen Club and Sabba is the co-founder of VEED.io. The duo are coming together for this pilot episode, to share their thoughts on SaaS, tech and startups, from the perspective of two successful founders with Charlie being the heart of the london indie community and Sabba running an 8 figure VC backed SaaS. AI is a prominent feature in this first episode, talking about meetups, fine tuning LLMs and being able to talk to your dog.Timestamps00:00 - Intro01:35 - AI Events04:30 - is Meetup full of grifters?08:18 - Who is going to be the next billion $ company?11:18 - Competing against AI16:56 - How to capitilise on the AI tool trend24:19 - Character.ai30:37 - Fine tuning LLMs35:44 - Loveable for X37:46 - Build something people search for41:12 - Micro tool strategy46:46 - Should you have a free plan 50:34 - Peach.ai52:12 - Sabba's local sauna