#90 - Jessica Brillhart

Hey, how's it going? This is Greg Cannon, and you're listening to Y Combinators podcast. Today's episode is with Jessica Brillhart. Jessica is the founder of Ry Pictures, and they're an independent immersive content studio in New York.

Before founding Ry, Jessica was the principal filmmaker for VR at Google. You can see her work at VRAI. pictures. All right, here we go.

So you started your company this year, and why? Great question. So this actually ties into my past, actually. So I was at Google for eight years.

I started as their first filmmaker with the Creative Lab. I moved on five years later into the Google VR team, which is now the Google AR VR team. I don't know. They might be different now.

So I became the principal filmmaker for VR at Google, which, again, is they talk about titles as the fanciest of titles. It was very cool. So I helped develop, so Jump, which was their VR live action, capture ecosystem for live action for VR footage. And I was making stuff and working with the engineers.

And the more that I was working there, I think I found it was very, very tough to be reactive. In the beginning, it was super easy, because VR was still pretty new, and no one really knew what we should be doing with it yet. And then once it started to solidify, it was much harder to turn the big ship towards the things that I thought were important. Namely, I thought that there was something really interesting.

Parallel was between the machine learning team and the Google brain team, and also what was happening on the VR team. And just in terms of the mediums, how similar they were, both in how they become more present in our lives, how they both kind of were like, everyone's really excited. And it doesn't work. And then it was like, wait, we found this weird thing that actually makes it work great.

So for VR, it was like cell phone technology. Actually, we have it in our pocket. We can make this stuff work. And with machine learning, it was like, right, logic is wrong.

It's actually preventing us from doing the right thing and teaching these systems how to learn. And so suddenly they both were on this trajectory. And from a creative standpoint, you could see some really interesting stuff coming from both teams. And I felt that there was a lot of ways that we could work together on stuff.

I also felt that there were lots of interesting pockets of artistic pockets where we could create content. It wasn't going to be like with the big studios. It wasn't going to be like the big IPs. It was really going to be in these places that needed it, probably more than Hollywood.

And thinking about ways that it could be functional and helpful for people, but also be artistic. You didn't have to be boring and boring. It's not just functional. Yeah, precisely.

Functions actually good, because films actually serve a function service for us. And so VR could also do it. Any sort of immersive content can. So I felt it was all, and I had before also worked with, I'd worked on some stuff kind of envisioning what the future would be like when glass was around.

And it clearly worked because everyone else worked in glass. But for me it was like, I'm really interested in this other layer of immersive stuff. But I also believe that it's not one technology or another technology. I believe it's all kind of going towards something.

They're all going to work together. So a combination of that belief and wanting to be more reactive, and honestly just working on the stuff that I felt was important to me to work on, once that all sort of became more clear, I felt that once I left Google, that the best course of action for me was to actually create my own company. And so, Vray Pictures is the company Vray for short, and has all the letters in it. Yeah, I mean, VRAI.

VRAI. But so I didn't want all the letters in my name, because I always thought that was a little weird for me. It exists in the ecosystem. And some people wear it really nicely.

For me and my company, I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I want that. And then I was in Paris with my partner, and he had said, I asked him, what's the word for true? And he had known I was looking for a name.

So he immediately was like, hold on, and he took a pen, and he wrote it down, and he goes, that's what it is. And the word for true in French is Vray. So VRAI means true, and actually means real, depending on how you use it. So at that point, you're like, OK, well, I cannot.

And so this makes absolute sense. And so I started the company in January. And it really does, in a very odd, eerie, but wonderful way that reflects the stuff that I care about, which is how all these letters, all these, you can pick it apart even in thinking of its visual arts, its mixed reality, all these various things that we talk about, will all come together, work together in really wonderful ways, and actually lead to whatever this new immersive environment will be. And I think right now we're seeing each as these separate paths, and I think it's really not going to matter.

I think you see the same thing happens in science. It's happening right now. We're like physicists and mathematicians, and CS people are all learning Python. And it's converging into one thing, just through computers.

So maybe your deep dream project is the most clear example. I think it is. Yeah, I mean, that was really funny, because that's so in Seattle. So the jump team, I think, is still in Seattle.

I don't know. So the engineers that are working on the computer vision people that are working on the Google live action VR rigs are planted in Seattle, the same office. And it used to be on the same floor as the Google machine learning team that was literally adjacent, like next to each other. Never really.

Not intentionally. Kind of both computer vision teams. So I think that was the reasoning behind. I don't know.

But I would visit the Seattle team, and then I was fortunate enough to make friends with this particular machine learning team, AI team, as run by this guy, Blazer, Guillard, Guillard, who's amazing. So him and some friends of mine who are working on this team were literally sitting two feet away from us. And I had gotten an email from Clay, actually, on the Google VR team saying, AR VR team or whatever, had emailed me and put me in touch with them, saying, they're actually announcing deep dream. They really need a video person to help them out.

And so they're asking me what I had. I originally just showed them stills of the stuff that I actually filmed in VR. And we started having this conversation around, well, I was trying to push on them the idea that, well, if you're able to dream up on top of the stills of these VR clips, then surely you could do it in such a way that we can actually experience it in VR. And it was a bit of a back and forth.

They were like, well, the fidelity might not be that great. It'll be low res. I don't know if it's going to be interesting. And then finally, they dug Fritz, who was working on the team at the time.

And he actually gave it a shot, worked his magic. And we were like, oh, this is actually kind of compelling. We don't know what it is. We're just dreaming up on stuff.

And it was really fun because I think there's no expectation it didn't fit on a road map. It was literally just us working together to see what we can come up with. And we actually worked with Roscoe on having his system, which was trained on Faulkner and Von Gitt separately, to actually write pros about what it saw. So and then it would recite it using this voice, Myra, which is an Irish dialect speaking, Apple voice, Apple, Mac OS voice, which made it really just unbearable.

Because it was like, and we both sort of like this is kind of interesting, but it sort of calls to mine less as more in a VR space. It's like once everything's kind of acid trippy, hearing this Irish American speaking, fabricated lady speaking Vonnegut interpretations to you, just isn't ideal. It's kind of hell on earth. So we sort of used it with caution.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes sense when you like change out every variable. It just completely throws you for a loop. Because it's all kind of close, but sort of nonsensical.

It is. I mean, I think what's great about what Roscoe's is that it actually does. It is very poetic, but it gets dark very quickly. Because well, Vonnegut, Vonnegut is a little bit more upbeat, but Faulkner is like, you know, like, so I consider her a she, because I hear Myra all the time, but it's she sort of says these phrases that are sometimes kind of like normal, normalized about the world, like, you know, a man with a hat on a hilltop.

You know, why is he there? What is, you know, she'll go off on that. And then she'll be like the darkness. It looms.

It looms for me. It's that they were all just like, this is weird. Yeah. Yeah.

Again, it's like us inter I mean, what's interesting is that there's it's all pretty surface stuff. And the depth is stuff that we bring to it, which I really thought, I think that part to me is very fascinating. Like how we interpret it is really where the story, where the emotional like foundation comes from. So this is actually like a big topic I wanted to jump into, which is like framing, right?

So in cinema, obviously it's a director, a cinematographer, working together to create the picture that transmits a story to you. Sure. But in VR, like obviously you have a certain amount of control. But how do you think about that at like the framing in the storytelling?

Oh, so I don't think it's storytelling. And I think that's the main problem, is that people think, you know, I think story is extremely important to the medium. I think storytelling is kind of like, it's sort of like you want to get to something that's important. So you take a pill to make you feel that way.

Like say like, I need to go to sleep. I need something to help me sleep. Somebody takes a sleeping pill. I don't recommend that saying that's something you should do.

It's just something that some people do. I think storytelling is the act of taking that pill. So it's like, yeah, you may take that pill. You might take, you might exercise before you go to bed.

It's a means to an end, but it itself is not the end. And so for film storytelling was the way that you got to story. And a lot of mediums, the telling part was actually really important because you couldn't actually take those people and put them where you were thinking. And now you're in a medium where you can.

So telling doesn't really work anymore. You don't need that. It's like, if you think of it as kinetic versus potential story. So kinetic is storytelling.

It's the idea that actively I am trying to take you and put you over there. So it's this kind of active thing that's occurring. For VR, the way that I've been looking at it, it's more potential story. I'm crafting worlds that, when you go there, the story is something that you can decode.

So it's like, how do these worlds transmit the story or represent the story so that no matter how you interact with that world, you're able to decipher or get to the core values of what that story is trying to transmit. It's a bit in the same line as an ASOP fable in a way. It's like Sloan said he wins the race. So that's what you're going for.

It's not about the turtle or the bunny. It could be anything. It's about that's the core value of the story. That's what we want the takeaway to be.

And so in my mind in VR or any immersive content, if you can get that piece, that truth transmitted to that person, it doesn't matter what kind of experience they have, they walk away with what was most important to you in the first place. And how do you think about that in the context of video games? Do you think that is just a transition to immersive content? Do you think it's fair for certain games already?

I think certain games provide, what's interesting about games for me is this idea of flow, which is it's very musical in nature. The best games are where they give you the capacity to explore at your leisure. Some of my favorite games have been something like Myst. I actually love Red Dead Redemption a lot because it's really stressful.

There's this rail that we're putting you on. Maybe you just want to take a break and train some horses over there. And that's fine. And then you can duck back into the story when you want to.

This idea that you can be in a completely explorable place. You can do all sorts of things that you want. But then there is this rail that you could go on and duck in and out of. I think that to me is very compelling.

Myst had that same sort of rail as well. It is definitely a different kind of game. If it's like, OK, you do have this, and that's all you can do. And you can't move forward until you do that.

Like a Super Mario Brothers is a great example. Any of the earlier games. Literally. Yeah.

Yeah. That's crueler. That we need to be aware of as creators in the space too. When we talk about games, it's not a catch all.

Yeah. Different games serve different purposes. Pong's, Different Super Mario Brothers, which is different than Myst, which is different in some ways, or a lot of ways from Red Dead Redemption too. Red Dead Redemption at least gives you elements that you're used to dealing with.

It works sort of similarly the way the world works. Like, OK, that's a gun. That's an evil person. That's like, it's easy to decipher it in Myst.

The whole point was that you had no idea what you were doing. Pulling lever. The first thing you do is there's a book on the ground, and you go, and then there's a lever. And you don't know what the lever freaking does.

You pull it, and nothing happens. And you're like, is this going to be the rest of the game? And it is. And I go, I don't really know what these things do.

And many of those games, like pre-internet, were so hard. Now you just go on YouTube, and it takes two minutes to figure out what you're doing. Yeah, I know. Actually, one of my, there was an old game from the 90s called Amber Journeys Beyond, which is actually, I've been an inspiration on a recent project.

And it's really great because there's some, well, it was just a really great game. It was sort of a Myst-ish copy made by two guys. I don't think they made anything after that. But they ended up, we won't, you can't play it anymore.

At least I have an emulator and a piece of hardware that will help you run it. There's a bunch of playthroughs on YouTube. And I actually sat there with a glass of wine and literally watched my, I remember, it was such a beautiful experience actually. I'm like, OK, I actually love watching other people play these games.

And the commentary is really beautiful too. I think one of my recent favorite games is from a Davey Readan, The Beginners Guide. It's wonderful because it literally sets it up and says, this is a 45 minute game. Because most of these games are like, I don't know if it's going to take up my life.

But it's basically you're on rails. But it's him. And he kind of gives you, he voiceovers in. It's about this other game creator who's created these weird psychological, very basic games.

So it's weird. It's like he builds this character that you never see. And this character is someone you explore through the pieces of games this character has made. And Davey is taking you through it as if he knows this person.

But then you start to question whether or not this narrator actually knows this person or not. Or if this person gave Davey the permission to showcase his games like this. So suddenly you start to question everything. As you're going through this game, I think it's really brilliant.

I think any game that takes the format. And then through the interactivity, your agency kind of makes you feel these different things. I think that's a huge win for games. Especially, and I think that is where immersive needs to go.

Florence, which I think just won the Apple Design Award for like best designed game. This guy Ken Wong, who was the designer on Monument Valley as well, started his own company in Melbourne. He's an amazing creator. And this game Florence is all about using, you use your phone the way that you would normally use your phone.

But the story you feel for the story based upon the way that you would feel for like conversations and interactions with your phone. So once a frustration is like not hearing back from the person for like three minutes. Like that kind of thing. I can't even see all those things.

Yeah, absolutely. How fast you reveal things. The whole idea of swiping is just very smart. And I think that's the thing.

We try to shove a lot of this stuff through preconceived notions and conventions where embracing how technology works now and using those limitations as a means of telling a story in some capacity or understanding a story in some capacity. I think that to me is really fascinating. Have you played the game? This is really embarrassing because I met the creator.

I think it's called Black Box or something, the iPhone game, where it's all the puzzles. So for instance, one of the puzzles, you have to put your phone in a freezer and the temperature has to hit a certain amount and then you unlock it. That's really it. I mean, it's stuff like that where I'm like, that's just so, because it makes you question your relationship with a device.

Totally. And I think that's an interesting thing. Because that story is potentially as good as some of the films that you've seen. Of course.

And again, it's not one to one, but it still gets you to the same place mentally and emotionally. So when you left Google, did you have a project in mind? Or were you just going to client stuff? I wasn't sure what I was going to do.

I just knew that I needed to go. I think that what I ended up doing first was I got a lay of a land, explored what other people were doing, talked to some folks, thought about the things that I wanted to do. I think for me, I needed a little bit of time to get a sense of what was out there. It's difficult, because when you work for a company for that long, you're like, oh, OK.

My problem was water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink, where it's like, oh, I have all this stuff. But I can't do anything with it. And then one of my limitations was beyond that was, I had seen where interactivity was going. I had a lot of ideas for that.

I could see where augmented reality and VR could talk to each other, where machine learning techniques and VR could talk to each other. I couldn't do any of that other than the stuff that I could sneak through. I think in frustration, I made what I believed to be a VR GIF type thing, which was a weather channel project that I did. That was my favorite one?

I don't mean to be down on you, because I know there are other really ambitious ones, but that was my favorite. Yeah, but it's most people's favorites, because they get it. It's immediately apparent. And it's also hilarious.

Yeah. And one of the things that people were always asking was, how do we make comedy in VR? And they try to bring comedians in. And I'm like, it doesn't have to be a literal thing.

It doesn't have to be slap-sticky or like, here's frickin, Jerry Seinfeld telling you a joke. It's literally just like, what is the human condition? What have we created for ourselves in light of spaces and experiences that are just inherently funny? Yeah.

And the weather channel just happens to be watching the weather channel is one of those things. It was very adult swim. It was a little infomercial. Yeah, it was really great.

And I think that to me, and I made that in a day. Yeah, that's not surprising. Yeah, no. But considering how long usually it takes to make VR, it's insane.

And I can show it to anyone in my phone. I don't care if they watch it on YouTube and low-res or high-res. But it's one of those things that you could just show anyone. And I love that stuff.

And I still think that that stuff is very important as well. So there's all that stuff and just this idea that I felt that I, yeah, again, being reactive, seeing how everything works together, creating a wide variety of stuff. I think I did want to, but I also really wanted to create. I had to work in a three-off environment, or like a 360 stereo environment, which for me was actually really great because it forced me to understand how something like just looking around was still very interactive.

Because I think that how we actually experience a space and how those spaces engage with us, that is an important part of this medium. I don't know if I would necessarily come to that conclusion if I had made it immediately. Volumetric and Sixtoff, and you can speak well. So for me, it was important to have those limitations so that I could see within the, or I could explore within the medium just some of the basic building blocks of what made it so special.

But that said, I really wanted to make volumetric Sixtoff. Well-calling VR experiences. I just wanted to do more. And I wanted to work with different technologies and different VR companies and really expand what I was doing.

And I thought of someone who was in the space early enough and who had the fortune of sort of being around the medium and its sort of second resurgence. I felt that I had the opportunity at that moment to actually do some good. So. So what's coming up next?

So I was thinking about what I could talk about. And I feel like I've been told I need to be patient. I've probably not talked about anything yet. But I think I can say that one of the things that has been really amazing is the response to me going solo-ish was really, was pretty good.

I mean, it was like I had so many people coming up wanting to work with me. And pretty big names and IPs and so on. So the projects that I have, I can say that there are four projects. One is with a pretty big IP, which is a series, which we're in development with right now.

We're still working out how that will work. But we're excited about it. And I feel like that's really interesting because that's both. It's something that explores the biopic and how we reimagine that sort of experience in VR.

In a way that feels like a journey. It feels like you're going somewhere special. So that's sort of the crux of the series. That was the awesome because biopics are so bad, usually.

The music ones are so disappointing every time. Well, the first one out of the game will be a music one. Great. So that should be fun.

Hopefully you blow the doors off of it. Yeah, yeah, thank you. No, I think it's difficult because I think music has a capacity to transcend and be emotionally valuable as well. And so I think that for me was an important part.

Plus this particular person is a very epic cultural icon. So it's a wonderful, it's been a very interesting experience getting to know who this person is on a deeper level, many levels. The second project with an architect who's pretty well known. And it's sort of a combination of, it's more exploratory, and I'm figuring out what we should be doing with his work.

Third is a game, a fringe game, probably more in the weather channel, steer, which I'm very excited about because it's ridiculous. And I think, but I feel like there would need to be a game that was more like, kind of helped do what Pong did for folks, where I wanted to have a game that was simple enough that people could all understand and play, and would be also sort of an introduction to what immersive stuff was. Is that not a Pokemon Go? Pokemon Go to me is still a bit complex for folks.

I feel like it's, I think it totally helped people get the hang of things. I'm thinking about what can be uniquely VR, like not taking an original IP, like a Pokemon. It's more like, can we create something that is, from the ground up, something that was built for this space? Based upon thinking about the way that defaults are built.

Thinking more in that kind of retro grade basic geometry world, and not complex character world. But complexity comes with it longer conversation. And I think the fourth one is the fourth one. That was, sorry, I'm trying to think.

It's really hard to keep them straight. That's OK. And the fourth one is actually a immersive audio project. Dot dot dot.

Dot dot. Next question. But also, I think the immersive audio is great. I think we talked about this before.

I feel that there's, as the visual fidelity changes all the time, and as someone who creates in the space, it's annoying because every time a headset comes out, you have to react for it. Specifically for live action, I think it's probably a bit easier for probably, I'm going to hear back from people being like it's an audio speaker. And all the events are sick stuff. But the audio guys are like, we good.

Like lean back, like yeah, I'll be expert at whatever kind of like, you need a 5.1 here. You need like, you know, like what kind of ambisonic, what kind of spatialize like, well format. And it's very, this is not too, they are extremely talented. Like the people who are talented are amazing.

People who are not to do it are incredible. It just feels like that stuff is so important in terms of selling you being in a space. And it's, again, people were trying to think of it second. So I want to be part of the, I want to lead help lead the charge and like, it's first for me.

Yeah, I totally agree with you guys. Like people don't realize that you could shoot this podcast on a Motorola Razr from 10 years ago for a video and then use these mics. And that would be good enough. Yeah.

Audio is so much more important than HD anything. It's absolutely, yeah. And no one gives it any love. No, I mean, like I'm thinking about the weather channel piece again, it's like, can you really hit it out of the park?

Oh, great. I can't do that one second. I was like, I got it. So, understood.

Yeah. All right, let's go into all the Twitter questions. So first question, Andrew Peterman asks, how long until we'll be able to create 3D 360 video from cell phone hardware and some kind of software, ballpark, estimate? Oh, I mean, you can kind of do that now.

Yeah, I think it's pretty good already. Yeah. It's a storytelling challenge or not, whatever. What's the word you want to use?

No, sorry. I mean, I can speak to what is the question? No, I mean, the question is rather than storytelling, what would you prefer to say? Oh, oh, god.

I don't know. World building. That's the one that I can think of. It's weird.

Again, it's like the director question. We don't really know what to call it. So it can be anything. Cool.

It's cool. Story crafting. Narrative. Narrative is good.

You know, creating a narrative. I'm trying to think back to all the decks I've made in the past couple months, and I think there are a few where I've definitely used narrative, story, crafting, story, crafting experience, making experiences. I think time will tell. Yeah.

Not the most important thing. Another few. No, it's also manic. It's like you just make stuff that's meaningful.

Oh, no, totally. It's the hardest part is any creative person. You're like, dude, I know you want to put me in a box. So here's the box, but I'm going to do it.

Yeah, I actually created, I love this, because I haven't used this phrase in a while, but I came up with my earlier days of working. I was trying to explain how I edited World Tour together. And the thing that I had called it was probabilistic experiential editing, which the acronym is P. And I remember when I was putting this together for a presentation, I noticed it.

And I was like, either I can pretend that's not the acronym or I have to call that shit out. And so I basically called it out. I was like, I know. But at the beginning of every medium, people are going to say some weird shit, and it may not last.

But here you go. And people, actually the response was very positive. Because I think sometimes people are so serious. Well, this is what this is called.

And it's like, well, it doesn't have to be. It could be called anything. We call it cheeseburgers. And it'd be like, no matter.

Yeah. And if you have the confidence, and you make cool stuff, no one's going to be like, oh, that's not wrong. Like, just because wrong. Dude, I make cool stuff.

Another VR future question Matt asks, where do you see VR in 10 years? I don't see it being called VR. OK. Sure.

Like, I just don't see it. I think that it's all going to go to a different kind of place. I think, yeah. I think it'll be called something else.

Related, Michael Haudab asks, does VR or whatever you want to call it? Still have long-term mass adoption potential? Or will the market shift to AR, so magically, Apple glasses, stuff like that? No, I think that's already happened in a lot of ways.

I think you can see that just in the shift of Google's like the same. It was cardboard in Google VR, then Google VR, then Google AR, then Google AR VR. So they don't really, it's like, people are still, they're trying to be like, OK, what's going to be the most, what's going to be the easiest thing for people to grok? Though there's part of, there's an AR project that I'm working on, or hopefully working on, that is similar where it's, everyone has phones in their pockets.

Everyone can download apps. So there are these two things that are easy enough for people to grok, where it's like, OK, I get it. It's not like I have a new piece of hardware that I have to learn. I think that I still have a hard time finding compelling content on AR, in the AR sphere as well.

So I think similarly to where VR is going to be in 10 years, I think that a lot of these technologies, which are by themselves, have weaknesses, weaknesses, weak spots, will once together kind of fulfill each other's gaps. So you can imagine, OK, AR is great because it's the most accessible thing. You build a relationship with a particular app that leads you into the VR space, because now you actually, because with VR, it's like you kind of need people to care enough to want to do it. So if you have an AR experience that is compelling enough, that does speak to you on some emotional level, and the fact that VR experience can be there to help expand upon that, like that's a simple off the top of my head way that those two could work together.

Is it compelling to you the notion that in pick a number of years, people will be in VR for a significant percentage of their day? I mean, people kind of are, aren't they? And with computers and cell phones, like we spend so much time on the internet. I mean, if you really want to do that, you could probably go to that level of like, well, we spend so much time not here as it is.

So it's like, I mean, we've seen the effects of that in some way. It hasn't destroyed us, but it has sort of had ramifications in the way that we work, live, our relationships, etc. So I think I told you that story about the hedgehogs and the plasma screens. So I went to the lounge that he throw, and I saw these plasma screens with these hedgehogs on them for some sort of AI system advertisement.

And I'm thinking like Blade Runner called this in a very just, you know, kind of semi-distopic way. Like look at, it's just everywhere and it's all over the place. And I'm like, it still is, it just has hedgehogs. So it's probably not going to be anything that's going to just, it's probably not, we destroy humanity.

Like we do a great job doing that. Oh yeah, we're on track. I think the technology itself is something that challenges the way that we exist and will provide us with ways to have conversation around that. I don't think it itself will be the cause of any sort of insane thing.

I'm actually not like, I'm not negative about it. I think people are just interested in altering their perception. And like, you see it when people like watch folks on Twitch and you see it with like, you know, deprivation tanks. And try those really awesome.

They are amazing. I mean, that's what's so great about, like with people are like, oh, when you go to VR and you do a billion things, I'm like, no, I don't do anything. And like, sometimes people just want to hang out. Like, and just like chill for a second.

And that's the thing I think that's very valuable for VR right now, at least, is the idea that you can focus. And it does have that meditative quality. That's really great. I also think that the potential for having at hospitals, having at places where people are there sitting anyway, and it's awful.

Like, the idea that you can have someone in a VR experience and not feel so bad is a great idea. My dad, I gave my dad an Oculus Go recently. He loves it. My mom's taking photos of him using it.

He fell asleep in one end, which was really entertaining. And I mean, to me, that's how I know it's going to be fine. Because I mean, it's just, it literally is just, it looks, he's fine. Like, it's just him being like, yeah, I was watching this thing.

And I don't know what he was watching it in. It was my project. But I think that there's something really sweet about that. Where it's like, it's just another thing for us to experience.

Yeah, just falling asleep in front of your TV. Reading a book or whatever. Yeah, I don't, yeah, it's precisely. I do think that there's, for example, I actually realized I needed glasses when I was starting to make VR, because I couldn't rectify the, I couldn't, the stereo, the stereo.

You're getting nauseous? No, no, stereo disparity. So I couldn't actually, it took me a while for me to see my left and right eye for close up, like text. Okay, okay.

Wouldn't match. So they'd still seem like they weren't working. I sent it to an engineer. And I said, you know, is my text right?

Because it doesn't seem to look right. And he looked at it, apparently looked at it and said, you know, he looked, you know, the font's kind of weird. And I was like, what do you mean the font? Does it work or not?

He's like, oh yeah, no, it looks great. He's like, are you sure your eyes are okay? And I went to an eye doctor and sure enough, I had like a, I had a stigma thing. So now I'm, yeah, it's weird.

So I mean, even that kind of, like I feel like there's some interesting ways of how, there's the, there are all sorts of things that will come to the surface from once people start to like actually adopt and experience this stuff more. I do think from a VR standpoint, right now people are sitting there with their VR headsets doing this kind of thing. Just like watching. But you know, all the headsets are going towards volumetric, like, you know, positionally wireless.

So I imagine there being, you know, a much more interactive, much more engaging, like you're not just there, you're gonna actually move around. Have you been to that, I think it's in like Utah, Las Vegas, it's like some laser tag type thing where you have a VR headset on? Oh, it's the, it's, oh my God, why am I blanking on it? Yeah, they have a Star Wars experience too.

I'm gonna get reamed for this. I don't remember the name of this company, but it's, yeah, they basically do like kind of a location-based entertainment, they have the Ghostbusters thing also, that's here in the city. Yeah, they do, I really feel bad about this. I wanna say Valve, but that's not true at all.

It's like, although GameTalk, I feel like they actually, yeah, I think that stuff's really cool. I think it fits within, again, it's like, it's a different genre of VR for me. Where I feel like that's a very, what they've figured out, you have to dedicate a space for that kind of thing. Because what you're doing is you're letting people seemingly move through a whole experience.

And I do believe that taking that first step into VR space for a lot of people is really, it's a powerful thing to feel. We were running some very, very basic, like if we took the 360 World Tour film that I made, if we put it in a space and kind of created, even if it was like a rudimentary box with what the floor would look like and gave you space to move, I mean, I did that and I almost, it was very emotional for me, because I remembered what it was like to be there. The level that seeing it couldn't do anymore. Like you would see it and be like, yeah, I was there, and then you move, you're like, no, but I was really there.

And that's where it's like, holy shit. Like when we're able to actually capture our own personal moments like that, where we can relive them, that to me is kind of- Perhaps, yeah, I mean, I've said it before, where it's like, okay, part of the human experience is that we forget. Of course. So when you can't forget anymore, what happens?

When you can't, like where you're, because I believe in the sanctity of experience and the human experience, that's my own opinion on it. I don't think that we should have all of the world's experience as accessible to people all the time. I think that's a terrible idea. And I don't like the way that that's been marketed as such.

Like I think that there are things that are poetic to forget and should be forgotten in some way. And I worry that my worry of this is that it goes in the opposite direction where everyone's like, remember everything, like experience everything. Of course. Access everything.

Yeah, once we index all of our memories, it'd be perfect. Totally. Completely discreet. I was just like a romance.

For me, as long as there's hedgehogs on a plasma screen saying AI systems and it's an act, as long as those exist in that kind of way, I think there's hope. Because it's like, that actually brings it to a place where it's like this stuff is being adopted, but in a way that's essentially harmless. It's like once you start thinking, once you start getting to the bare bones of like, why people are trying to do this, what the end goal is for some of this stuff. That stuff gets a little weird.

But I think right now we're in a reasonably nice place with some of this. I think it's VR, AI, or not VR, it's bringing people joy at this point. So I don't think it's really seeded fear in ways that other technologies have. No, I think we were talking about this.

It's only AI until it's cleaning your floors and then it's a Roomba. In other words, it's like my friends. We have so much AI intelligence systems around us now. I speak to Google Home every day.

I would speak to Siri occasionally. It doesn't phase me at all to do that. But ask me five years ago if I would talk to a little speaker in my kitchen and ask this at the time for me for grilling, it would be like, I wouldn't really understand when I was talking about that. It would be like, that's weird.

Yeah. Let's go into the craft. So Virginia Pigato asks, how can a traditional storyteller adapt to VR? And actually, I don't know this about you.

Were you making films before? Yeah. I was a filmmaker, so a quick background on my life was that I studied film at NYU. OK.

And at the same time, I was running across the street to the Caron Institute. At the time, I used to. Oh, OK. So I was, you know, Caron.

So I was there, and I got a minor in computer applications, non-computer science, because I got to Pearl, and I hated it. So I was like, no way in hell am I going to spend my time doing this. Thank you so much. Language is like, turn people up.

I can't stand it. But I would go back and forth between these two schools. I didn't know about ITP. Never heard of it.

Neither. And if I had, I would have totally gone there. So it was this kind of, so I went to both schools. I did that.

I worked at Apple for a little bit. I worked at a place called UV Factory as their lead editor for a bit. And then I ended up at Google. And Google was, it was always like that back and forth, like science, art, science, art, and then our technology film, I guess, for the two.

And then Google had a position open for a filmmaker. Or film, it was like film editor at first, but then it turned into a filmmaker when I got there. So I started working there with the Creative Lab, which, at the time, was like 10 people. The one in Chelsea?

Yeah, exactly. And that was become like a huge, very, very important part of Google, actually. They create magical things about the brand. And they kind of tell Google's story about their products.

And I was part of that, how do we use films? How do we be artful about these films? So it's not talking heads and engineers that look really nervous. So I ended up working with them for five years before I went to VR.

And actually, the VR team, the people that were working on the camera, I think, found that it would be better if they just tried to look internally to see if someone could use the rig, so they wouldn't have to rely on external stuff, it'd be more cost effective to try to find me. So I remember they had emailed me. I actually kept the email because it was what was a huge turning point. Because I was actually feeling kind of bored, to be honest.

Maybe a film? Yeah, because it was a bit, again, it's that idea that I wanted to do more, and I felt like I could do more. And then when the VR wasn't really interested in VR, I'd be honest. I didn't think it was for me.

I didn't really think about it at all. But then a bunch of my friends started working in it, like Erin Koblen, Chris Milke, started with a verse at the time, which is now within. Sashka Unsled went to Oculus and started the story studio. So there were all these people that I had known who were starting to get more involved with VR.

But again, I wasn't thinking about it. And then, sure enough, I got invited to see this rig and experience the footage. And there was one clip that was a test footage, a clip that the engineers had filmed of just themselves hanging out in Seattle. And it was brilliant.

It was wonderful. Because I'm making films about these engineers. And it's really hard. I feel like I was mostly successful in doing it, but it was hard to get engineers to be normal.

Just talk about what they love about this stuff. Because when they do, it totally makes sense. But I think they're used to like, well, I have to talk like this. So I had to like, I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, I don't know how to do it. But then I think seeing that I was like, right, this is actually the truth of that. So to really quickly answer the question. Yeah, how did traditional storytellers adapt to VR?

Right. You abandon the telling as hard as that is. You think about what I do, actually, is I draw two axes. And then brackets.

I write down what I want to tell. OK. And I use a whiteboard. I love whiteboards.

I don't know if it's the Google thing. But I love whiteboards. Because it's like, it's non-precious. And you just like, write and erase it.

And it doesn't exist. So I write down, even if it's long-winded and crazy, I'll write down what I believe the story is. And then I'll look at it and start to hack away at it until I get to that truth statement. So I'll give us a twist on the hair.

It's like the entirety of that narrative. And then it's like, slow and steady runs the race might be the end result. So I reduce. I feel like you're sort of sculpting at that point.

You're sort of like, here's my story. The story I would tell is this big block of clay. Within that block of clay is the actual, meaningful bit. Yeah.

So I mean, that's like the Michelangelo quote, right? It's like I see it in the marble. And then I bring it up. That's why it's literally what you're saying.

OK. Well, then I think that's a aim for that. And it's also thinking about, once you get to that truth, then it's really about holding. It's like your North Star.

And it's about, for me, after that, once you get to that, you have to also think about the flow of the experience, thinking about the cadence, how people come into spaces, how they relate to other objects, how they relate to other people, thinking about the various elements that you want to bring into it. So it's layered thing. Thinking about the tech as well. It's not film in the sense that, OK, you edited in Final Cut or Premiere or whatever, you export it, you put it on FTP and you send it to somebody.

It's like, the process is very much in flux. So a lot of the things you have to consider, who's my audience, where is this going to go, which headset, what kind of limitations are there for the headset? Are they creative limitations? Are they annoying limitations?

And then you really have to understand how those limitations play into the truth that you're trying to transfer over. And again, thinking, how is that truth constantly represented in this experience? How do I make sure that regardless of where someone is engaged with either what I believe is front, back, wherever? How is it, even at its worst, still able to transfer that over to somebody?

So yeah, it's a lot of really the preemptive stuff. It's kind of figuring out what are things I call it. What is the superpower for the person in the experience? Like in a game.

Oh, man. OK. You know what I mean? Like, OK, I can jump.

I can throw a fireball if I have one. I can go this way, but not that way. So being given people the time to understand that first and foremost is also important. But understanding what those things are and how that evolves over time is part of the narrative too.

And I don't know if it's the companion cube in Portal, where you're given an object that's meant to help you and does help you. But then it's incinerated, like three layers in, because the computer wants you to feel awful. And you do. And it works.

And so it's that kind of like when you're given this gift to do something incredible, and then halfway through, it's taken away from you. I don't know what I want to spoil, red dead redemption, but like, so sorry. Maybe it's pretty old at this point, right? OK.

So there's the second one coming up. OK. But you're playing this character John Marschison, and you get to the end, and you realize that you can farm. Get your wife back and your kid back.

And you've been trying to help the FBI as this outlaw for the entire game. You beat your kind of enemy, former colleague, and then they let you go. And you get your wife back and your kid back. And you can farm.

And then the FBI comes back in a rampage and kills you. And you can't win. There's no like, and you're just like, holy shit, like what happened? And then you die.

That's it. And that's like. And that's life. And there's nothing you do about it.

And then for the last little bit, you play your son. OK. And you play the son. And then your son is now taking revenge on his father's death.

And it turns out, in a way, the whole red dead redemption is about the son. Redeeming. Not redeeming his father. Not the father redeeming whatever else, which is always a little bit, you know, like I guess, like getting back to that is gang for having a band in him.

I don't know. And you're like, OK. That's when you're like, because you're suddenly terrified, you're like, I did everything that I could. And you did.

And you still failed. Right. Because life, that's sometimes life. And that's how you set up a second game.

That's how you set up a second game. All right. Let's go rapid fire through these questions. So Ken also asks, what key but non-obvious thing is missing from VR to become mainstream?

People not just focusing on entertainment and games. I think that a lot of what I've been doing has, I mean, granted, one of the pieces I'm making is entertainment, but thinking about education, thinking about various other, you know, professors. And I think that, you know, it's not just like, you know, I think that a lot of what I've been doing has, I mean, granted, one of the pieces I'm making is entertainment, but thinking about education, thinking about various other professions that could use it. Infrastructure, architecture, like, you know, the other project I'm working on.

Thinking about, I don't know, where this stuff can actually be useful. I'm doing those things artfully. And I think that we kind of just try to focus on doing this one thing. And it forgets, like, but, you know, we could just find, be inspired by other places where, like, I've gone, I've had people come up to me saying, like, is VR important to us.

And sometimes I'm like, I actually helped them. I work through the stuff with them. And I say, actually, no. It's like useful.

It might be useful in the future. But I think right now it would be weird if you did it. Yeah. Well, I think this is a, you know, as technologies expand in popularity so quickly now, they just become hammers and people are looking for nails, like, blockchain.

We have a watch, just a white, white. Why? No, it's for sure. It's like, this was driven by AI.

You're like, I don't think, hey, I don't think it was. Why would you do that? It's like, it's no reason. Yeah, it's like, you know, I think that that's, it's more figuring out where you can have, where that stuff, that technology, myself, included, where we could have, like, the most impact and still be creative and still explore.

And I think people who really do want this from other sectors are also really open-minded. At least the people I've been working with to explore are those, how it could be really interesting and wonderful for people. Yeah, totally. Alright, next question.

Matt McAbey asks, what are some of the most exciting or scariest parts of social VR? And what is the storytelling potential of social VR? What is social VR? Social VR is, well, it means a lot of different things.

That's another kind of cool thing. Well, okay, so it's social could mean, like, it's a way for your friends or followers to, basically, it's about the idea of, like, sharing the experience with another person. That's ultimately what it means. Gotcha.

So, like, either you're represented by avatars in the space and there's multiple people, or it's multiple people be able to do the same experience at the same time. It could mean all those things at the same time, too. I did, uh, old VR, I think that's what it's, alt space, sorry, alt space VR. And, um, for the first time, like, I think a month ago, I just was curious.

I just hadn't been able to do it for a while. And so I did it using the Oculus Go, and I, um, I was changing my avatar, like, because you're a robot, and it could be like three or four other things. And meanwhile, this couple comes along and they start talking to me. And I am looking over at them as they're talking to me, and I'm still changing my avatar.