Ep. 40: Darby Saxbe on Fatherhood, Alloparenting, and What Really Drives Birth Rates

Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall host an episode of We Made This Political featuring clinical psychologist and USC professor Darby Saxbe, whose research focuses on the transition to parenthood, fathers’ roles, and how family relationships shape mental and physical health. The conversation covers alloparenting and humans as cooperative breeders, arguing that shared caregiving and community support are central to healthy parenting and maternal mental health. They discuss how modern U.S. life—built environments, isolation, intensive parenting norms, and limited policy supports—raises stress for parents and may deter family formation. Saxbe notes evidence across OECD countries that higher male contributions to housework and parenting are positively correlated with birth rates, and argues that coercive or women-disadvantaging pronatalist approaches are counterproductive, citing Romania as a warning. They critique polarized “trad wife vs. girl boss” framings, discuss the Heritage Foundation’s pronatalist messaging and gender-hostile narratives, and also acknowledge left-leaning cultural messages that can shade into hostility toward families. The episode touches on marriage declines, men’s increasing time with children, the influence of manosphere content on boys, and the importance of raising boys to be capable partners through non-gendered expectations around care and domestic labor. They compare child-friendliness across countries (including Denmark, Sweden, Spain, South Korea, and Mexico), emphasizing public spaces, zoning, and liability structures that shape family life. Saxbe closes with cautious optimism that current political and cultural turbulence could lead to renewed valuing of care, and the hosts encourage listeners to read Saxbe’s Substack Natal Gazing and pre-order her upcoming book on the neurobiology of fatherhood.00:00 Birth Rates & the Case for Dads Doing More at Home00:47 Meet the Hosts + Introducing Psychologist Darby Saxbe02:18 Why Study Fatherhood? Darby’s Origin Story04:38 Alloparenting 101: Humans as Cooperative Breeders08:50 Isolation, “What’s Natural,” and the Myth of the 1950s Family11:33 The Rise of Intensive Parenting (and Why It’s Crushing Parents)15:28 What’s Really Behind Falling Birth Rates? Money, Stress, and Gender Roles17:47 Pronatalism vs Antinatalism: How Family Became a Culture-War Issue25:01 Toxic Narratives on Right and Left: Tradwife vs Girlboss30:36 Where Are the Men? Fatherhood, Marriage, and the Manosphere34:04 A Better Model in Academia: When Leadership Supports Parents34:30 No Parental Leave Policy: Finding an Ally in the Department Chair35:43 Why Parent Representation in Politics Shapes Family Policy36:22 When Maternity Leave Depends on One Mentor (and Why That’s a Problem)37:29 Suspicion Toward Moms, Praise for Dads: The Cultural Double Standard39:34 Policy Isn’t Everything: Sweden, Incentives, and the Need for Culture Change41:00 The Real Tradeoffs of Parenting + Where Kids Do (and Don’t) Belong44:20 South Korea’s No-Kids Signs vs. Mexico’s Child-Delight Culture48:48 What Family-Friendly Cities Look Like: Denmark, Sweden, Barcelona, Austria52:48 Zoning, Liability, and the Case for More ‘Beer Gardens with Playgrounds’55:08 Raising Boys Today: Algorithms, Masculinity, and Teaching Self-Sufficiency01:00:33 Optimism, Plugs, and Farewell: Care, Realignment, and the New BookResources:Pre-order Darby’s book Dad Brain, coming in June.Read her current work on her Substack Natal Gazing.Some other great thinkers on biology and parenting: Sarah Blaffer Hrdy’s books Mother Nature and Mothers and Others This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wemadethispolitical.substack.com