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Great to be here with you guys. It's so great to be here with you, too. I'm Jason. Hey, what's your name? I'm Sean. And I'm Will. Hey, Will. Welcome. Hey, Jason. Hey, Will. I'm just feeling really cozy today. Yeah? You want to chat about stuff? I just want to kind of cozy up to our listener. Put on some nice soft socks. Snug up. Yeah. Get a nice wrap. A wrap, a throw, a pashmina. Yeah. And just keep a real cozy. Are you going to light a fire? Yeah. Just a real cozy welcome. If you listen to the snap, crackle, pop of the fire, you can just barely hear it. Grease up your ear holes, everyone. Welcome to Smartless. Welcome to Smartless.
That's so gross. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. How's everybody doing? Look at Will's haircut. Hey, Will. You finally figured it out. That was some tough sledding there for all of us for a week or so. I got a lot of like, I got a lot of really shitty comments. You did? Someone's got to be honest with you. About my hair. I know. All the people commenting. But then like, well, who's responsible for what we had to deal with for a couple of weeks? And then who's responsible for this pleasure cut here? Yeah. Same criminal? Was it Eli? No, no, no, no, no. Eli's done a fantastic job. No, I'm in New York. I went and saw my guy, Kevin Woon, who is the best. I guess the next one's free. Yeah.
Well, I mean, he's never received a mention. He's the best. And what was his name again? It's Kevin Woon. And you want to spell that for their listener? W-O-O-N. And you'd find him. And Kevin's with a K.
You ever met a Kevin with just a hard C? How would you spell that to make sure no one goes seven? So seven? No, it's Kevin. Yeah. Or like a Q-U. Yeah. Kevin. Hi, I'm Kevin. Wait, Will, where are you? It looks like you're at your grandma's spot. I mean, do you want me to give a shout out to the hotel? It's new. Yes, it's good. It's the Whitby. No, it's Warren Street. Warren Street. And you'd find that on Warren Street down there. Yeah.
yeah and I gotta say I like those hotels it's pretty fantastic it's cozy yeah it's pretty pretty great I didn't know what to because I used to go into the place that we always go to and then you know Jay the Farmdale Farmdale hotels you know those here comes Sean for he'd like a freebie all over the world not just wait why aren't you at the usual spot Willie because they didn't have what I wanted because they were full I see you haven't had your chocolate strawberries over your right shoulder yet they're plums get your eyes off my plums man we haven't really spoken we haven't spoken since we did our live show with our buddy John Merrick which was really fun that's super fun it really was out there in LA there at the Avalon yeah that was a lot of fun We're still kind of thinking about maybe doing another one later in the year. We're not sure. Well, we also keep talking about, we know we've got a lot of people saying like, oh, you guys, you know, you're not doing, we keep talking about doing a tour and it is something that we are, we have, we almost did last year. Remember, we got really close. We had dates and then it didn't work out, but we have a lot of fun doing it. So we would like to try to, if we can, figure out a time that we can do it again. Plus this other live show, JB, that you talked about that we may do at the end of the year. So, you know, it is something that we are actively looking to do. If anybody cares, probably they don't, but.
It's something that we do want to do. Also, if anybody cares, Granddad is now officially on Instagram. Yeah, which is fair. But what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to put up pictures, right? This is not like, so the writing, that was Twitter. I got rid of the Twitter. But now this is just pictures, right? So I take like a fun shot of, you know, me and traffic, right? I put up stuff like that. Yeah. Hey, crazy on the 405 today, right? Just put that up. Please, please do that. Please just make your Instagram traffic updates. Or a shot of a candle burning. Just relaxing. Do a lot of pray hands, a lot of talking about gratitude a lot.
What if I can get my dog on a skateboard? Do that? God damn. Your views will skyrocket. Everybody's been warned. I'll tell you what, I'm going to warn you guys. I'm going to warn you guys about our guests because you guys are both going to be excited for different reasons, for all the right reasons. This is a big one.
Really? Yeah. JB, you're going to be excited on a bunch of different levels. Sean, you're going to be excited on a bunch of different levels, which all meet. I'm excited on a ton of different levels. This is, we got a lot of talented people on here, but I love when we have people on who do lots of different things, especially when they built it themselves and came from humble beginnings. Our guest today- This is Elon Musk. I want to apologize for dropping Twitter. He hails from St. Louis, Missouri, so it's not. Our guest is from St. Louis, Missouri originally. Went to Columbia University. Got a start in showbiz, you know, in paid showbiz, working for Troma Entertainment out of New York, the home of lots of great-
What people call B-movie, but really like low-budget horror films and stuff, really cool stuff. So intentionally kind of close to trauma, but it's not, it's trauma. It's fun, it's fun with the words, Sean. It's fun with the words, yeah. You know, he's written...
Lots of films. He's written lots of books. Hang on a second. It's so good. He's terrible at this. His first thing he wrote was Tromeo and Juliet in 1997. Oh, shit. He's having fun. What the fuck are you doing? He's written so many scripts. It started with the big studios for films like Scooby-Doo and then Dawn of the Dead and then Slither, which he directed with Nathan Feeley and Elizabeth Banks. He then went on to do a feature film Super. Holy shit. Get him out here. Then he went on to do all of the Guardians of the Galaxy's movies and now he's the co-chairman, CEO of DC Studios. James Gunn. Holy shit. Ding, ding. What did I tell you? Paper comes off. Nice going.
Nice going, Will. What did I tell you? What did I tell you? Hey, John. How are you? Good to see you. I know, John. You do? I do. How do you two know each other? We had dinner at Chris Pratt's house, and then we watched an Alexander Payne movie. That's right. Which one? What was it? Shrinking. No, the one in the winter. It was in the winter in the college. The last one. Holdovers. Holdovers. I loved it. I loved it.
I love that film so much. I thought The Holdovers was so, so fantastic. Yeah, I love it too. And I know I've met Will a couple times, but I can't, I remember one time it was at a screening somewhere, but it was a long time ago. I was going to say the same thing. We have met a couple times, but it was like 20 years ago. Exactly, yeah. Right, yeah. And neither of us remembers it. It didn't leave an imprint with either of us. I remember you standing there. Yeah. I do a lot of that. James, look at all the photos, look at all the paintings behind you. Like, you look like you're in a museum almost. Now, Sean, who is that, who is the heavyset fellow there in the black and white? I'm afraid to say, I'm going to give you two guesses. Yeah, yeah.
Go ahead. No, I can't. I can't. I don't want to say. I'm going to embarrass myself. I'm going to embarrass myself, too. Go ahead. I don't know. I don't know. This is a heavyset black and white photo. It looks like an old president, listener. And I'm going to go with Taft. Is it Taft? It is. It's Taft. It's a painting, though. But if you notice, instead of a pocket watch, there's sausage links there. I didn't even see that. That's a lot. It's a very elegant looking painting. Beautiful. And then just kind of, you know, just a smaller part of the painting. There's sausage links. Wait, who did that? I can't remember the artist's name. Yeah, that's great. James, I'm very excited to meet you.
I'm excited about you too. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of yours. I want to know everything about everything that you're doing. Sorry, Will. I know. No, no, no. I do too. And I'm with you. And I mentioned it in the opening, James, because I think it's so interesting because as a guy who feels like I grew up in Toronto, but I really grew up in New York. I moved when I was 20. And I remember all the times past going down 9th Avenue and seeing ads for Troma on the side of the building. And I was always like, what is the deal with these guys at Troma Entertainment? And that's where you got your start. So please just tell us a little bit about that experience and what it is and what that was for you. I was still in grad school and... Studying what?
studying writing. at Columbia. And I got a job at Troma to write a screenplay for a movie called Tromeo and Juliet for $150. Troma, and I'm not saying that as an exaggeration, I mean literally $150. Troma was most known for the Toxic Avenger films. They were, like, made a lot of money and then they made a, you know, they started out with sort of, you know, TNA movies like Squeeze Play, stuff that, you know, I watched on Cinemax as a kid, but that made money in theaters. And then they made a bunch of movies that made a bunch of movies on video cassettes. So they actually made a lot of money in the 70s and 80s and this was the 90s so they weren't making as much.
But they were never paying anyone for anything. They made money for doing everything. I mean, it was traumatic to work for them, you guys. Well, Lloyd Kaufman, the head of Troma, says that the word Troma means excellence in celluloid in Latin. So I don't know how much. Well, that's what he says. I don't think there's a Latin word for celluloid. But he's kind of like almost like an East Coast Roger Corman. Is that a fair comparison? Yeah, like a more raw, rougher. I mean, the difference is, is that Corman just was 100% product. But Lloyd is kind of an artist. It's just that his artistry is not kind of. He's an artist.
But his artistry is very blood splattery and sexual and very trashy. But there is a sort of feeling to Troma Films that the AIP, Roger Corman's company's films, didn't have. Got it. But you were able to cut your teeth there. You were given the experience, the opportunity to write a script, to write a screenplay. You didn't even go into, is it true you were applying for a job just to work there and they asked you to write it? Sort of. I mean, I went in to meet with him and then by the end of that meeting, I think he asked me to write the screenplay. I was doing like these sort of monologues. It was these monologue things.
uh downtown new york and so he kind of knew who i was from that right um yeah the thing is is that it trauma i just was able to learn about every single facet of filmmaking so yeah i wrote the screenplay but i ended up my credits i think are executive producer but then also associate director because i basically ended up you know directing portions of the film that's a sitcom title it is one of my first jobs was to choreograph a sex scene between two women so that was sort of sorry first. Yeah, it was horrible. It's a different job title nowadays. I think I speak for Sean when I say gross. That's the quote from this episode. So then you learned a lot of stuff about the nuts and the bolts of making a film because you were on set for the thing that you wrote?
Well, I was on set every single day. I directed the actors. Nobody talked to the actors but me. Gotcha. Oh, wow. It was like I just learned, and I would come home every day from work with the girl I was living in at the time, and I think I found my home. It was like I was alive. What felt so great about it? Was it just like the fun of making fake life? Yeah, I think I was good at it. I really was good at it. I mean, it wasn't like I had no experience making films. I started making films when I was very young, just out of fun, but I was just one of these artistic kids that did everything. I made films. I took photographs. I played in rock bands. I did comic strips.
Um, but I understood filmmaking pretty, pretty well. And you, yeah, you were making films like as young as eight with your brother. Is that true? Yeah. I think about 11, I started making movies and it was like, I had seen Friday the 13th and I'm like, oh, we can all do this. And, uh, and I was tearing apart my brother, Sean, who's an actor now, um, you know, with fake blood and. But like, but look at all of that and the years from then until now, I mean, look at where you are and what you're doing. Like what is it? Tell me you're not jaded and it's not lost on you. Like how fricking awesome it is that you're doing exactly what you were passionate about when you were what? Eight, 10.
And do you think it was because of that passion that you're where you're at now? Or was it just, was there a moment of great luck, right place, right time? I'm sure a combination of- I think it is a combination of a number of things. It's a combination of luck. Luck has definitely placed a hand in it. I think a part of it is that I still, I somehow am able to shut out the world about what the world thinks and just-
act from a creative place. Wow. So I don't have to do what I'm doing to like, you know, please like that can come in after. Right. Yet at the same time, I have a right brain mentality. So I'm sort of able to think how things fit into a pattern. The boxes you need to check for the commercial viability of it. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the puzzle making part of it is a part of it for me. So I think, yeah, I think I have the right mix of.
being passion, creativity, but also detachment. Which you need now, running the studio, the DC element, you've got to not only be the creative element, but you also have to oversee other creatives you bring in underneath it and make sure that you're marshalling things in more of sort of a corporate agenda at times as well, yes? Yeah, although I have a partner, Peter Safran, who takes care of everything that I don't want to have to take care of. So he goes to all the corporate meetings. That's dry cleaning. You built in a bad guy. He picks up my dry cleaning. Right, you built in a bad guy. So somebody comes and goes, hey, we want to do this. You're like, I'd love to, but Peter says we can. I hate to say it. I'm still the bad guy. But he takes care of all the sort of practical stuff in the studio. He knows all about the money and all. I don't know what's going on with that. I really am here mostly to try to.
you know, create creative, you know, stories that are good. And, you know, one of our main commitments is to the writing of the story. So that means that the writers are, you know, lifted up in, you know, a place where they've been, I think, just sort of their place is diminished in Hollywood, especially in filmmaking, that in television. And to be able to, you know, make sure we never go into production on a script that I don't think is finished and great. That's a great point that you bring up. I feel like there's so much, the writers, especially in film, have been sort of taken for granted in the sense of like, we're going to make this movie. We'll get somebody to just write it and then we're going to make this movie. It's like, no, no, no, you're skipping the...
the biggest step, which is you need, the material needs to be there. Otherwise, what are you doing? And people just kind of skip over it. Isn't that at odds sometimes, James, when, especially in the big tentpole stuff that you guys do there at DC, where you have to like put your flag down on the ground with a date and then sometimes that script is not yet written, but it has to be written by a certain time in order to make the film, all the effects and all that stuff and hit that release date. Isn't that sometimes at odds with you saying we're not doing anything until the script's right? It is, but I'll change the date. I don't, you know, I mean, if that has to happen. I mean, I just generally, you know, we've been just running off of
you know, screenplays. So Superman got finished. People liked it. We made Superman. Supergirl was written by this wonderful writer, Anna Nguara, and then that was really good, and so we greenlit that. Clayface came into us by Mac Flanagan. He wrote a great script, and so we greenlit that.
Batman 2 has had, you know, Matt Reeves, you know, has moved the date a couple times of when it's coming in, but it's, you know, we moved the date because Matt wasn't ready with the script and we need to give him time to finish the script in the way he wants. That's awesome. Right, yeah, that's awesome. I've been around, I mean, I've been around so many big movies by this time and I just see that the problems are always that you have these screenplays that are, you know, they say, okay, well, we have the first act, that's really good. Let's set our production date for five, six months from now and then they go into production and they don't have the last act and they're writing it during production and that's just not how screenplays work. Everything in the first act, what they're doing is naturally related.
to what happens in the last act. Sure. Right. Yeah. And you have so much experience in that, as Jason said, working in these big tentpole films because you've worked on the biggest films for the two biggest players in this sort of the superhero IP world that there is. There's DC and there's Marvel. And you have kind of gone back and forth a little bit between the two. Yeah. Right? Are there similarities in terms of the culture between the two? Well, the culture at DC Studios is new. It's me and Peter. So we haven't even been here for three years. So that's new.
And the culture at Marvel, there were so many things I loved about being at Marvel. I mean, first of all, Kevin and Lou, the guys who are in charge, are just really just great guys. Kevin Feige. Kevin Feige and Lou D'Esposito. They're great guys. I really love them. And they really care about the movies, you know, but sometimes they get, you know, I mean, like they're trying to get things all back on path. They got overwhelmed with, you know, Disney coming out with streaming and then saying we needed a million things this year. It just became too much to quality control. So when you have- Well, that goes into what we were talking about. Sorry, Sean, just the idea that like, hey, we've got this huge streaming service. We need to feed this machine, give us product. And instead of going like, hey, let us finish the product. And then- That's right. Right? They kind of back that. That's right. I mean, it's nobody's fault. They're trying to run a business. And so whatever, but it creates that quality control issue that you alluded to.
Yeah. How do you, we were talking about it at dinner when we had dinner about Superman. You were just into casting or something like that. And Sean, by the way. Or something like that. Yeah. Sean, what part did you read for? I read for Superman. Did you? He tested. It was down to him in corn sweat. Yeah. I came in a motion capture suit and I just didn't think that was right. When were you ever, when have you ever been in motion? What are they capturing? Like you go into the fridge, they're going to capture that motion? I don't want people watching Jeopardy. It's so interesting when I move my body. It's forever interesting. And now, a word from our sponsor. All right, back to the show.
No, but James, so when I heard about, even before we had dinner, when I heard about they, meaning you and DC, were doing Superman again, how do you, this is like clunky, obvious question, but how do you approach a new take on it that we haven't seen and what is going to be different? Because when I first read it, I was like, wait, they're doing it again? And then I see the trailer, I'm like, oh my God, I have to see that movie. It looks amazing. Well, I didn't. I mean, again, it was a thing of they came to me with Superman many years ago and I...
I was like, I don't know. I just had a hard time imagining what it was going to be. And Peter Safran, who's been my partner, he started out as my manager in 1998 and has since become my producing partner. You know, it's his dream. It was his dream to make a Superman movie, always. And so he was always bringing it up, always just bullying me about it. And eventually, you know, I just kind of kept playing it in my head. It was like a math problem I'm trying to solve. Like, how could Superman work? And then I finally started to see it. And it was the culmination of a couple of things. Number one.
that I re-read an old comic book I really like a lot called All-Star Superman. And it had a sort of Silver Age, yet grounded classically, sort of old school science fiction, but again, really grounded characters. and deep moral issues around the character of Superman. And I saw how that wouldn't be the story that I could tell, but I could just rip off the way that comic book was. Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly and Jamie Grant did that book. So I think that was part of it. And then just kind of just playing around with ideas and coming into it. And then I got this stupid dog, Ozu, who was destroying all my stuff. And I thought, oh my God, what if this dog had superpowers in my life? He destroyed my house. Wait a second. Your real dog is the name of the dog that's in the film? No, my dog's name is Ozu. But he is what Crypto is 3D modeled based upon. Crypto is the name of the dog?
the dog in the film? Crypto's the name of the dog. Yeah, he's Superman's super dog from the comics. He's never been in the movies. That's so great that he's in there. You talked about it, and Sean, you mentioned Superman, everybody's familiar with that character. And there is something about, and maybe you can sort of shed some light on this, people keep returning to these characters, specifically these superhero characters, comic book characters that they like. And for some reason, they continue to resonate. And I know with this new Superman, I read that you were trying to...
you know, do something that sort of painted a nicer, sort of kinder vision of the world, right, where there was more good happening, and especially we were living in complicated times, I'll just say that. Yeah. Is that important for you to get that kind of message through in all of these films? That's not always where I'm at with something, but with this film I was. I said to the cast when we sat down for our, you know, meal before we started that this is a movie about goodness. Yeah. And it isn't about a world that's kind. The world in Superman is as unkind as our world in many ways, but Superman is kind. Right. And that's his real superpower, and that's...
You know, the fact that he doesn't balk from that, that there isn't an ironic flip on the fact that he's kind, that he's just straight up kind. It's not a joke. We're not making fun of him. And that's. you know, he is a rebel and his, you know, his rebelliousness, you know, manifests itself in just kindness and goodness and love. I love that message. I think that that's really, I remember saying to one of my sons a few years ago, I said, he was talking and he said, it's quite personal, but he said, you know, dad, I feel like I'm really sensitive. And I said, that is your superpower in this world. And the world will try to take that away from you. And don't let them take that away. Lean into that. That is the true, true superpower that you have. Man, that's great dad stuff to say. That's really great. Well, it's true. I think, I think it's really true. And I think that that gets lost on us. I think that there was, you know, that traditionally it was much more about,
you know, if somebody comes out, you hit them back harder and don't take no shit from nobody and punch them in the nose and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, you know, look where that gets us, you know? And I think, so I love the idea that you, at the center of it, you have a superhero who, not to spend too much time on Superman, I know, but just that that was important to you. Oh yeah, absolutely. It was very important. And I think it's really, you know, I think that was why I struggled with the character because I've normally written.
These characters that are sort of the opposite of that in some ways. Characters like, you know, Rocket from Rocket Raccoon from those movies and Star-Lord and Peacemaker who are these blustery, angry individuals who, you know, at their heart, they're good, but it takes this work to get to who they are. Right. And that's what the stories are about. And I think that's what my life was about up until that point because I was like that. But I think that this comes to me at a certain different point in my life where I am more okay with just being kind. You know, it's so funny. Isn't that funny? Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. You're talking about Instagram. No, I was on Instagram.
You saw something fun. We're having a real conversation. Talk about the thing you saw on Instagram. No, because it is so loud. So keep going with yours. Keep going with yours. Because I'd love to double back just on what the button is in the bottom right-hand corner. But when we get there... I was going to say... In my Instagram feed... I want you two to fight so bad. In my Instagram feed, of course, it's my algorithm. But a video came up the other day about you and the movie and about whether you should put tights on Superman or not.
Oh, no. No, it's the shorts. It's the shorts. Yeah, the shorts or whatever it is. Yeah, it's the trunks. I thought it was hilarious that there was this whole conversation about, should he have trunks? Should he have trunks? Oh, you don't even understand. Walk us through. We got time. Somebody, I am sure that somebody would kill somebody else over the fight over whether Superman should have trunks or not. So I wasn't aware of this conversation until I came onto the movie and I started trying to design the Superman suit. And the truth is, Superman always had trunks in the comics. Do they make sense?
I mean, sort of. They existed because when Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster first created the character, he was like a wrestling guy or a circus strongman, so he has these trunks on over his costume. But then Zack Snyder came in, and that was like the dark, more, you know, mean, cool version of Superman. And he didn't have trunks. He took away the trunks. And so when Zack took away the trunks, there were tons of fans that were outraged. There are people that spend all the, you know, we think our world is divided in terms of Republicans and Democrats, and that everybody's fighting about that stuff. That's because you don't.
There are whole factions of people that don't even barely know who Donald Trump is, and all they care about is whether Superman has Trump's or not. Can I tell you, I had a small taste of that over the years when I did the voice for Lego Batman and the Lego movies and the Lego Batman movie. This is an actor. Bravo, what a dog figure. He's a really great character. Inside joke, James. Inside joke, he's terrible. I tried to do Lego Batman in the back of the theater as the dude. But I remember I got dragged in over the last sort of 10, whatever it's been since I first did it, 10 years, and all these, and I get, speaking of Instagram, tagged in these arguments about who's the...
Ask Batman. And I'm telling you, it's twice a week, huge, and thousands of opinions and things about things and specific things. I'm like, it's a whole- It means something. Yeah, it means something to people. It means something. It's everything. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. It's like a religion to some people. And I don't, I mean, that, it may not be the healthiest thing for a person. So, I mean, but it's an issue. And so, yeah, people keep arguing about the trunks. And then I came out and our Superman has trunks because, and I really couldn't decide, but David Koren Sweat was like, you know what? This is a guy who can fly around. David Koren Sweat plays Superman.
He can fly around. He shoots beams out of his eyes. He can do all these scary things. He's an alien from outer space, but he really wants kids to like him. So he's going to wear this, you know, sort of garish, colorful costume. Kids love short shorts. They aren't that short. They're trunks. Isn't it born from kind of a practical purpose to kind of keep things somewhat discreet on our superhero? Because he's wearing some clingy outfits there, one clingy outfit, and he needs another layer. Am I wrong? I mean, otherwise we're going to see his religion.
Well, I think that you could design the pants so that they don't outline the ball sack. I don't know, Jay. I don't know. It's difficult. Jamie, you're worried that the kids are going to see the super package. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, the guy's got a real pronounced helmet. You've got an issue. Wow. Guys, these are things you've got to consider in pre-production with the costume fitting, okay? I think it's a smart move. You just attracted an entire new audience. By the way, we're talking about these people in the abstract. These people who have an opinion. Sean says, I see it. The reason it came up in his algorithm is because Sean, when Sean is on the verge, Sean and his husband, Scotty, are like super nerds. And these are the kind of conversations that they have over dinner. Like, I can see that you guys go like, did you hear that? We actually really do.
The Trumps, he's not going to do the Trumps. We do. Sometimes we do. About Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and stuff like that. We do have conversations like that. All right, so wait. Thank God you found each other. Can I just say that? I know, by the way. I know. Who could handle any of this? We're going to have dinner tonight, by the way. Sean and Sean. Is that on? Yeah, it's on. But can I just make this one? Just no cosplay. Can we just say that tonight? Because I don't want one of you showing up to see the review or some shit. Well, then it's going to be a pretty boring dinner. It's going to be boring. So wait, so James, you had this like, you know, Scooby-Doo, and then the sequel, and Slither, and all these things. And then, do you feel like Guardians was...
How did that come about? And do you feel like that was the thing that kind of launched you to the next level? Oh, I mean, without a doubt, it was like, I had actually told my agents that I didn't want to focus on film anymore. Actually, this relates to some of the stuff we were talking about in the beginning. I said, you know, it's like no movies are taken seriously. They aren't a part of the cultural conversation unless it's like...
a Hulk movie or a Marvel movie or something. I'm making these lower budget films. Like they just aren't resonating. You know, I had just signed a deal to do another TV pilot, which I'd always done. And I was like, you know, it seems like the really creative space for writers these days and even directors is in television. That's where you kind of do what you want. Television has taken the place of the art film in a lot of ways. So I said, I am going to just focus on television. I had also just done a video game, which I had a lot of fun doing. I'm going to focus on creating TV and video games. And it was then that Marvel called.
and said, we want you to come in and meet about this thing. And I was like, oh, I have to drive down. They were in Manhattan Beach at the time. I was in Studio City. I'm like, oh my God, I got to drive through this terrible traffic. By the way, next time you got a big drive, next time you got a big drive, go to Jason's Instagram and he'll give you an update. Instagram page with the cool traffic site. This is before the Zoom revolution of COVID, right? Yeah, this was before Zoom. Exactly. And so I'm like, you know, I'm like, I don't even want to go. I had met with them before about stuff. So it wasn't like I was getting the call. And so I went in there and I sat down and they told me about Guardians of the Galaxy and they showed me this.
pre, you know, art they had done. And it looked to me like Bugs Bunny in the middle of the Avengers. And I'm like, I don't know about this. So it's like, I was like, I don't, I don't know. And I was driving home in the traffic. Yeah. So maybe I should be grateful. Now it's worse. Yeah. Now it's late afternoon. It's traffic. You got to go over the, go over there. Yeah. I had to think and listen to music because there was no Instagram where I couldn't Instagram myself doing it. And I, and I was going, you know what? You know, okay. So.
you're thinking that this raccoon is a drawback, but what if this raccoon was real? Like, how would this raccoon come to be? You need to like get fucking Bradley Cooper or something like that. Yeah, make it happen. So I imagine like, what if this raccoon was real? And I'm like, oh my God, this raccoon would be the saddest creature in the universe. He's created in a Petri dish. Basically, he doesn't, you know, has nothing like him in the universe. He's completely alone. And so it was, that was sort of the soul of the movie. And then I started thinking how much I loved Star Wars when I was a little kid and what Star Wars meant to me. And I thought that I could create that.
not by, you know, mimicking Star Wars, but making Star Wars for what would work with kids today. So bringing some of the color back. What would, you know, when I walked into the supermarket and saw C-3PO and Chewbacca on the cover of People Magazine, I was like, oh my God, who are those guys? That's so cool. I knew that I could do that. Yeah, for sure. And you did it. And you're like, what a mission accomplished times 10. And by the way, Jason, you mentioned the music. I mean, I read that you, James, of course, like a lot of directors, you chose all the music, but not only you choose the music for your movies, the soundtracks became like huge hits as albums, like platinum selling albums. Yeah, I have platinum albums up in my house. It's so weird.
Yeah, exactly, like introducing sort of a new level of intrigue and draw to what was typically Marvel's sort of like, well, we're gonna throw a bunch of effects at it and it's gonna be really exciting, CJ. But you're putting in this subversive element too that exists with the music and with lighting and editorial pace and all that stuff. Like you really kind of, you cooled it up and you hipped it up and it became a whole different lane in Marvel. I think it was like, and with the music, it was really like, I'm creating this space opera with all these characters that people don't know and it's totally wacky and weird. So how do you ground this in the coolest way possible? And I'm like, well, 70s AM pop would work perfectly over.
Somebody dancing through, you know, an alien graveyard. Can I just tell you just apropos of nothing how excited I was because I love Chris Pratt and I have for a long time. This guy! He's a bravo! He's a bravo! He's amazing. I love him. The character is a guy. He's an Italian guy. He's in the back of the theater, James. I'm sorry. It's funny to only the three of us. So, and I remember when Pratt first did Parks and Rec, I remember the first season and I was like, and he was a recurring character and I was like, this dude is so fucking funny.
I just love them. So then when all of a sudden he was doing this, I remember when he got the film, the first Guardians movie, and I just thought like, yes, the world's not going to know what to do with Chris Pratt because this dude is so funny, so talented. He's one of those guys, he can't help being funny. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I text him all the time because, you know, I'm doing, you know, all sorts of, you know, press junket stuff and things like that. And I love doing press junkets with the guys I'm doing it with, with the, you know, with the Superman cast and with John Cena from Peacemaker and all that. Which I want to get into. Yeah, yeah. Chris and I used to have such a great time on those things. Would you guys pair yourselves together? All the time. Yeah. Yeah, but it was like, it just became these giggle fest where... Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's so, yeah, I had the luxury of doing press junkets for a couple of years on the Lego stuff with Chris and it was some of the most fun I've ever had in showbiz. It was actually doing press tours because we laughed our asses off. Don't drop the dirtiest joke.
the dirtiest bomb. And you're like, wait, what? It makes me laugh so hard. So, so good. So you mentioned the Peacemaker. So you're directing all these movies and then you went back for it. And now you're co-chairman and CEO of DC Studios. And then you're directing the new Superman movie, which is, as we all know, directing of it, just the years and the hours and the time and the life and blah, blah, blah. And in there, you created this show, The Peacemaker, with John Cena, which you wrote a bunch of episodes. Well, I wrote, I created Peacemaker two years ago. So Peacemaker, or whatever, four years ago, Peacemaker originated on HBO Max a few years ago. It was the number one show on HBO Max ever. And...
Then I committed to a second season. And so it's my favorite cast and I love these guys. And so I was supposed to do a second season. Then I got the job as the head of DC Studios. I was halfway through doing this animated show called Creature Commandos. And so like in a space of, I had to get into Superman first. So my second call after, you know, right before I got the job was announced was to John Cena saying, I'm going to do Peacemaker, but I just have to hold a B because I got to get Superman right.
And so, yeah, in a year I wrote 650 pages of material. And then the next year I produced and directed 650 pages of material. And this year we're releasing 650 pages of material. Tell us what your day is like. What time do you get up typically in the morning, truthfully? 10 o'clock. No, no, that's not true. But I get up pretty, I don't get up that early. So you stay up late.
I stay up late, but my, my times fluctuate wildly. So like when I'm writing, I try to have as little schedule as possible because it's just the writings in my brain all the time. So during that 650 pages, when I'm just writing out of pure panic in a lot of ways, but then when I get to the page, it's working, you know, and then I would step outside of the page and I'm terrified, step back into the page and it's working, step outside of the page and I'm terrified. And so I just had to keep writing and writing and writing. And that was going on constantly, you know, and I, that was actually the busiest time was the writing of it because, you know, when you're shooting, it's much more structured and then I have to go into post-production and all that stuff. We'll be right back.
And now back to the show. You obviously love the creative process so much because you're so deeply involved in it and doing so much of it. What was it like when you got that call to have one of the most prestigious elite jobs you could ever imagine? Partly running one of the biggest studios in the history of it. So that's an executive job. And for the listener, it's wildly different to be the people that push the button that make it all happen versus the people that are on the set that actually make it. And so you're doing both. How did that land for you?
Cool, I was happy. It wasn't as pure of a joy as, say, when I got the first Guardians movie, because that was me doing something I knew how to do. This was kind of creating a new job that hasn't existed, because there hasn't ever been a creative in the position of studio head. Which is insane. Which is insane. If you think about it, right? That sentence that you just uttered is quite crazy. It's crazy, meaning that it hasn't happened yet. Because you would want a creative person to be the oversight person of the creative process. Right, right, right. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, but also you do need to manage a lot of stuff. So there's part of it. And that's what I would never do the job without Peter Safran. Yeah, but I mean, to the extent that like, and maybe going off what you just said, which is I remember years ago being, and this is on a much, much smaller scale, but being in a meeting, in a casting meeting for a TV show with a bunch of executives from a TV studio from back then.
25 years ago. And I'd already been cast in the thing and I go in and we read a bunch of people for this other part. And one of the people who runs the studio, one of the executives, after the person leaves is like, yeah, yeah, I think he's good. And he's having this conversation. He's driving the conversation about the creative of this casting of this actor. And this guy literally was a fucking bean counter. Quite literally had been an accountant. And he's the one making the decision on the thing. That's lunacy. Yeah, that's why most things aren't good. Yeah, there used to be something called the creative committee.
at Marvel. And it was, you know, comic book people and toy people and all these people that would chime in with their notes on scripts. And I think that's fine that, you know, they, they give notes because, you know, one of the things that you hear all these people being afraid of notes all the time, but you don't usually, you don't have to use them. You just have to listen to them. And people are usually happy if you just listen, if you listen and then you say, I don't know because of this, they're usually okay. But they were a little bit.
acted as if they were the authority on everything. And so Kevin and I, we'd be working on Guardians of the Galaxy, and we'd have that final screenplay, and then all of a sudden, we'd get these lists of things that needed to be changed. And it always felt to me, like I was watching that show The Nick at the time when they used to do, you know, operations and they'd have the audience members there. And it felt like a couple of brain surgeons performing brain surgery and having a bunch of podiatrists around telling them how to do it. And it was just like, you know, I mean, they told me to take the songs out, you know, when they saw the first cut and Bradley was doing Rocket's voice as a character, they're like, why do we pay all this money without, he doesn't sound like Bradley Cooper. I'm like, yeah, he's playing the character. He's an actor. That's what the guy does. That's why we hired him.
And it was just a list of things that they just had nothing to do with storytelling, nothing to do with what would capture people's imaginations and just whatever their peculiarities were. So you thought with this opportunity maybe would come not a sea change in what the executive ranks would look like, but at least you would be able to influence this studio in a direction that made a little bit more sense? I thought it gave me an opportunity. First of all, I thought it was cool because DC was breaking off from Warner Brothers and becoming its own studio, which was awesome. That had never been done. Marvel's still under Disney. And then secondly, I thought it was an opportunity to try something.
that had never been done before, which was to create a cohesive universe, but also a cohesive brand that was about quality. And I only am going to be on this earth for so long. So why does, you know, might as well put everything into it. It's an opportunity that just has never existed for anyone ever. So how could I say no to that? My wife wishes I had, but you know, how could I say no to that? But did you, but that presupposes that you're able to have a certain amount of authority and influence. What kind of, to the extent you're comfortable sharing, were you given assurances that made you think, well, there's a possibility I could actually.
do this. Oh, I knew that we could. Yeah, yeah, because the only person we answer to is David Zaslav, and David Zaslav has, he tells us if he likes something or he doesn't like something, but he doesn't have any sort of say or interest in saying, it's not that he doesn't have any say. If he wanted to, I guess he could, but he doesn't have any interest in saying the story A and story, he's the opposite of the guy Will was talking about. Yeah, it seems very deferential to the creatives. Yeah. We love David. Zas gets it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he's not, you know, he doesn't think that he knows how to do that, you know? Right. One of the most terrifying calls ever was, you know, I had done the screen test with David Cornswit and Rachel Brosnan, and
You know, and they were so freaking good together. And I love them and Peter loved them and Chantal, our executive producer loved them. And I sent the tape off to Dave and I said, here's our two choices. Here's what we want to do. And David called me up and he goes, and he sounds really dour. And he goes.
You know, I have to preface this by saying, this isn't what I do. This isn't what I, I know, you know, I'm not a movie business guy and I'm, you know, movie creator. I'm not a storyteller like you are. This is just coming from a place of me as a person. And then he stopped and he goes, I fucking love it. That's so good. Like you're an asshole. What a cool dude. What a cool dude. So then James, now just to kind of switch gears a little bit. So you're doing all this stuff. And of course we're all kind of.
all of our ships are pointed into the headwind of AI and what kind of effect it's going to have on the future of film and stuff. And we've kind of been asking everybody a little bit. You guys must be at sort of the tip of the spear when it comes to filmmaking and where it intersects with AI and how we can use it and what we need to look out for and what you think the future might hold for films. I hated when we were going through all the guild dispute stuff and AI was the big part of it because we're just not quite there at that point yet, writing and acting. And so like there were all these important issues that we needed to talk about. And it's like AI, the splashy thing is making all the headlines. All my friends online are getting upset about AI stuff. And I'm like, guys, really look at what's happening. This isn't a real thing in this moment. You know, I have a stunty friend who's like,
they're going to use my body and they have the rights to my body. I'm like, they don't want your body. They want the body of the guy, the actor that you play. Right. But I do, I think it's in, in, in the, in the moment, it's a problem for the low level jobs, which is where I feel the most compassion by say with VFX.
all the people that do all the rotoscoping and all these sort of more tedious jobs, that is going to be replaced by AI in the next couple of years, almost certainly. And I don't think there's anything we can do about that. I don't think there's any way that a studio is going to say, yeah, let's spend an extra $40 million on this movie. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think just setting aside the actual replacement of jobs and people, et cetera, and the actual end product is different in our case. And each one is unique, each sort of...
you know, entertainment is going to be what you actually consume, which is what you want to consume original entertainment that has the potential to be created by AI, JB. I think that's the, that's my sort of question. Yeah, but I mean, it's so, it is a little bit of ways right now. So it's, you've got to do a lot of stuff. I mean, it's, it's, you know, the things that you're watching are eight second clips of things. And even then, if you put, you know, get into a cab, you're suddenly getting into the front seat of the cab, you know? Right, right. So it's, you got to, it's, there, there, there is artistry and work behind AI. I've played with it a lot. It's fun to play with.
So I don't really know. I'm not the fucking fortune teller, but I am very aware of what the present problems are. Wait a second. I thought you were a fucking fortune teller. But the other problem, for me, kind of the bigger problem, especially in the VFX industry, is that all the people that do the jobs that are going to remain, a lot of the animators are actually almost like technical actors because they're creating the actions of these characters, the way they move. And the training ground for those jobs is gone now.
So how do you learn how to be those people? How does the next generation of people come about? And I think that's pretty much going to be true in every industry. So the double problem is, where do all these people go that have these other jobs in a world that already doesn't have enough jobs? And then how do the people train to get to the next level? Doesn't that mean that we're instantly going to have more ill-trained people at the top, next level? Yeah, I do think, though, that there's probably going to be a big audience that doesn't care.
about, I'm sorry, talking about writers, there's gonna be great writers, and then there's gonna be a huge part of the audience that doesn't care about the beginning, middle, and end so much, just as long as there is one, it doesn't matter how good it is, as long as there's car chases and explosions, they'll show up, even if the whole thing is totally AI. I wish Scotty would walk by in the background right now. I think maybe that's true. I mean, I don't know, though. I mean, it depends on how developed it gets, you know, because remember, AI is eating its own tail. That's right. It does, it's not feeding, it can't create something new. It's really just creating amalgamations. But I'm saying, but I'm saying, yes, but I'm saying there's an audience for that. They don't care.
Where it will be in the next few years, I don't think that's true. I think that what you get out of that is you get a Hallmark movie. Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. There's an audience for Hallmark movies. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's an audience for Hallmark movies, but you can't make a billion dollars at the box office with a Hallmark movie, and you can't really afford to make movies no matter what. Hopefully there's a benefit from that entry-level part of the process that may become automated. Hopefully that will...
potentially save enough money for the industry that it'll then be reinvested into the industry and help the financial health of the industry get stood up again. Because right now there's a bit of a constraint going on in our industry, right? There's a lack of work, there's a lack of product. Studios are making less films because it's becoming more and more expensive to sell them and make them. Hopefully this will allow that financial health to come back to the industry and then put all these people back to work again, maybe in some other job, but maybe there'll be more product being made. I mean, maybe that's Pollyanna, but hopefully it will. I don't think, I mean, I think that your basic point is absolutely.
true i mean that you can make bigger feeling movies cheaper i mean a movie like superman is you know nearly half of its budget is in vfx yeah right that's that's a lot um it's it's a big budget film it's not as big as you know you know guardians 3 or you know these other things but But a lot of that's the actors, you know. I think, JB, I think you're right. It's either that is true or the opposite and we're doomed and it's all crashing into the fire. Look at the automotive industry. I don't know the numbers, but I feel like it's a healthy industry. The music industry with all of that, that big digital change that happened, I think that's a healthy industry. I think the music industry got kind of screwed. They're fucked. They got screwed because, yeah, the music industry had no awareness the streaming change was coming and they just, they got screwed out of everything. So the writers, songwriters got screwed out of everything, you know.
You know, so like one of the things I do in my spare time is I've written songs. And, you know, I have songs that have like 40 million hits, you know, 40 million plays on Spotify. I've never noticed a dollar coming in from that. And I probably have made a few thousand dollars, but that's a few thousand dollars. That's a huge song. And so it's like, you know, people make money from today from touring, which is great that the live music industry is thriving. But in terms of musicians making money like how they used to from album sales and songs, you know, it's not there. Well, I was going to say that the touring is, and here for me, that is an indicator that what people still crave is the human connection. And I think that is going to be a thing that pushes back against things like that. That's going to be the biggest commodity. And I talked to, by the way, I had all these teenagers, my sons had their friends over all weekend. And I was asking all these guys, I was like, what do you guys think you're going to do?
do when you grow up and we're having these long conversations. And one of them said, oh, I want to get into sports. I want to get into analytics and the numbers and stuff. I go, that's gone. I would pick something new because all that will be crunched by AI. I'm serious. Like, talk about it. Talk about a vocation that's not going to exist. But I do think, I do think the one thing is, is going to be the desire for real.
human connection, that is, that is, that is going to be a commodity that is going to become even more exclusive and people will pay a premium to have a real experience, a one-on-one, a live, whatever that is, experience. And that's the good. So you'll show up, you'll, you'll dance for someone, right? If you get sent the right dollar amount. Only fans, but an in-person only fans private dance. Makes sense. Private dancer, dancing for money, any old music will do. In Superman's trunks. You'll do it. We follow them. Bad times. I do think that a film or a television show or something that's a novel, they're all artistic expressions and they're all a form of communication. They're all a form of one.
either person or group of people communicating to other people. And I think that if people feel that communication aspect is not there, that's going to be a drawback for a lot of people because there is that feeling. when you're seeing a movie or watching a TV show. But do you think that there'll be a lane of films not too dissimilar from animation, right? It's a huge section of our entertainment industry, you know, Disney animation, Pixar, and the like. Those don't have- What kind of films do they be? Like, are there new ones coming out in the next one? Oh, here, yeah. But like, you know, those aren't actors. Those are drawn figures. And so there's, it will be a lane, perhaps, of AI films that live next to animated films, that live next to live action films, that maybe they'll be a different price point, maybe? I don't know. Maybe, but I think it's also, what are you talking about as AI films? Are you meaning 100% generated by AI from start to finish? I don't know, but like-
animation is. I mean, you have real actors that are, that are giving voice, the voice actors behind it. So there'll be a combination, I bet. It's going to affect animation. Almost certainly, you know, I mean, you know, it definitely will. Yeah. So you're in a band. You still play? No, I'm not in a band now. I don't play. I just, you know, I thought you were, I mean, I wasn't a band. So that's how I like, Oh, I didn't know if you still played. Yeah. No, I still play. I still play some piano, but I still write music with, um, at various times, you know, like, uh, Rhett Miller and I wrote songs together for the guardians of the galaxy Christmas special. And I wrote a song with Tyler Bates for guardians too. I wrote stuff for Scooby-Doo. What about scoring a film?
For me, I could never do, I'm not, I'm a punk rock kid. What if you said, what if you said, yeah, I mean, from time to time, Johnny Greenwood can do it, you can do it. Yeah, okay. No, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. All right, all right. Listen, James Gunn, we can talk to you, honestly, we say this sometimes, but we could just keep going, but we've taken up way too much time. We're already over. Oh my goodness. It's so fascinating, we're so excited. The Peacemaker comes out this summer, right? Yeah, Peacemaker is live on August 21st on HBO Max, and there is a podcast inspired by Smartless.
with me and Jennifer Holland, who plays Harcourt, who also happens to be my wife, and Steve Agee, who plays Economos, and then many guest stars from Daniel Brooks to John Cena and so forth. And that takes place twice a week up until the release that we go over every single episode of Peacemaker. Oh, that's fun. That's cool. All right, so that's available now. The podcast is available now. What's the podcast called?
I believe it's called Peacemaker, the official podcast with James Gunn. It's a wonderful thing. And how'd you guys come up with that? I don't know. A creative committee of sorts came up with it by AI. Please tell Jennifer I say hello. It was so nice meeting her when I saw her. Oh, I will. Absolutely, Sean. Yeah, she loved you and Scott. Same to Scott, by the way. I will, I will, yeah. Well, fantastic. Well, continued success. We're so happy that we have a creative like you at the helm of at least one of the studios. And you're just doing an awesome job. And I'm such a fan. I'm going to say, I know we all are. And it's just been such a joy to have you. Me too. Pleasure to meet you. Say hi to Peter too. I will. Thanks, guys. Nice to meet you, Jason. Have a great day. Take care, guys. You too.
pal. Thank you, James. Bye, buddy. Bye. Very nice. How cool. That's pretty cool. We had Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi on a while ago over there at Warner Brothers as well. That's pretty cool.
I love talking about the different opinions of people in our business where they think it's going to go because of AI. Everybody has a different kind of take or angle. These guys have their hand on the lever, too. They'll tell you exactly where it's going. My favorite quote from today's episode is Jason going, I don't know for sure, but I feel like the auto industry is doing well. Well, isn't it? Just pure speculation. And I said that about music, too, and he's like, yeah, no. I was like, okay, sorry. What do I know? I feel like it's doing okay. I see a bunch of cars on the road.
the road, James. Come here and use it. Stop noticing cars. I was in a car today. You don't want to come to us for what's going on. No, no, no. He was great, though. I love his stuff. I didn't know Supergirl was a thing. I didn't know that. He's got that coming out after Superman. I'll watch both of those. Don't you think it should be Superwoman, though? Anyway. Oh, yeah. Get online and start fighting with people. Yeah, but it should be. But, Willie, so I'm going to see you tonight for dinner for sure? Yeah. All right, so I'm going to see you there for a quick bye.
Bye tonight. That's not where I was going, but sure, that's good. Bye 7 o'clock. That's what it was. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant-Terry, and Rob Objarf. Smartless.