Copywriters Podcast

Nathan came up with the idea for this show, and it started, of all places, in his mom’s kitchen.Here’s what happened: If Mom says dinner will be ready in 30 minutes, Nathan is much less likely to go digging through the fridge.So if she wanted to stop him from digging through the fridge, she wouldn’t have to say a word about the fridge. She could just start cooking dinner.Think about that for a second. No argument. No lecture. No “get out of the fridge.”Just one piece of information—and an entire behavior stops in its tracks.When Nathan told me this, I had one of those moments where you realize you’ve been looking at something really important your whole career, without ever really seeing it.By that I mean, the insanely simple power of copy to STOP you from doing something.Here’s why I didn’t see that:Every copywriting formula out there is built to do the opposite. To get someone to START a behavior. To push people toward taking action.But there’s a whole nother side of influence that almost nobody in our business talks about. Not because it doesn’t work. It does.People don’t talk about it because it’s never been named and explained.Today, we’re gonna change all that.We’re talking about using copy to DISsuade people – to STOP a behavior that’s standing between your prospect and the sale (or between your son and his dinner).We’re going to look at how this technique works, why it’s so powerful, and how you can add it to your skill set, today.

I was rummaging around on youtube when I came across this video with an outrageous claim:“This book literally teaches you to think like a Harvard lawyer.”My skepticism shot into high gear, but when I watched the video, from a youtube educator named Stephan L. Petro, I saw he was on the level.I’ll tell you about the book in a minute. It’s really valuable for any copywriter, because it will help you sharpen up your sales argument quite a bit.But more important, it has one idea called “the bridge” which most experienced copywriters do automatically but most beginners miss out on–and this idea can make all the difference between whether your copy works.Now, we’re not lawyers, but in some ways we do the same thing, so it will be worthwhile to find out more about this book and what it means to us as copywriters.ResourcesThe Uses of Argument, by Stephen E. Toulminhttps://www.amazon.com/Uses-Argument-Stephen-Toulmin/dp/0521534836The Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

This week I had a great conversation with a Hollywood screenwriting coach and screenwriter himself, and it reminded me about how much people in Hollywood know that copywriters can learn and use.One of his most important points was there are structures that make stories work. Not rigid formulas or two-dimensional templates, but guidelines with benchmarks that have proven time and time again to act as a container for great stories.I was reminded that we’re not always talking hero’s journey when we look at stories. I went back into some of my own research and found some more micro-story structures that we as copywriters can adapt to make our own copy that much more compelling.We did this a couple months ago when we talked about The Dark Knight, Inception and Rocky.Today I’ve got three new story types that will add a little Hollywood intrigue to our sales letters, sales funnels, websites and VSLs. Really, to any type of copy.RESOURCE:The Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

Today we’re continuing with Part 3 of our Old Masters Series, focusing on the contributions of Albert Lasker. That’s because in 1898, Albert Lasker arrived in Chicago to work at Lord and Thomas, which he took over in only a few years.And what Lasker and the copywriters he hired would do over the next 10 years would change the course of advertising.We’ve covered lessons in Parts 1 and 2 of this Old Masters Series. Particularly, lessons for direct-response marketers.Today we’re going to cover the last four lessons and then broaden our lens, because Lasker in fact had major and lasting impacts on our CULTURE, and he hasn’t gotten all that much credit for it as far as I’ve been able to tell.So now’s the perfect time, since I think you’ll find some of the most important changes he caused to be interesting and possibly very useful in your own world.Resources:The Man Who Sold America, by Jeffrey L. Cruikshank and Arthur W Schultz https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Sold-America-Advertising-ebook/dp/B003SNJYTYThe Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

The world of copywriting and ecommerce almost changed forever last September 29, when Open AI launched something called Instant Checkout.This new service was designed to let you seamlessly buy something right from Chat GPT.Instant Checkout crashed and burned over the next six months for a number of reasons.One, the infrastructure wasn’t there to let it happen. It was launched before there were enough figurative runways, air traffic control towers, connections between Chat GPT and merchants, and other things like that.Two, the cost to merchants was really out of line:7% per transaction, more than double what they were paying when customers came directly to their site.They shut it down in March. Not forever; just, for now.So Instant Checkout was an early attempt at what’s called Agentic Shopping, where you order right from the AI and an AI agent does a lot of the heavy lifting for you.We’re most likely 3-5 years out from Agentic Shopping becoming a widespread reality.But when it does, our world as copywriters will change. In a big way.We’re going to look at how, and what you can do to prepare for this inevitable future, today.

Today we’re continuing with our Old Masters Series focus on the contributions of Albert Lasker. This is Part 2.Lasker is the one person in history who, more than anyone else, created the foundation for what advertising is today—at least direct response advertising.On today’s show, we’re going to review some more of the most important lessons we have learned resulting from his innovations more than 100 years ago.Here’s the short version of his history:At age 18, Albert Lasker arrived in Chicago to take a job at the Chicago ad agency Lord and Thomas. The year was 1898.And the location was in the Trude Building, at the corner of North Wabash Avenue and East Randolph Street. A little less than a mile south of where I worked for McGraw-Hill, on Michigan and Erie, when I lived in Chicago in the early 1980s.But back to 1898. What Lasker and the copywriters he hired would do over the next 10 years would change the course of advertising. Today we cover eight more lessons from Lasker.Resources:The Man Who Sold America, by Jeffrey L. Cruikshank and Arthur W Schultz https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Sold-America-Advertising-ebook/dp/B003SNJYTYThe Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

Albert Lasker didn't just become one of advertising's biggest names—he helped invent the way modern direct response marketing works.In this episode of the Old Masters Series, we explore the principles that transformed advertising from clever announcements into measurable sales systems. You'll hear the stories behind the ideas that influenced generations of copywriters, from Claude Hopkins to David Ogilvy, and why many of those lessons still outperform today's marketing trends.If you've ever wondered why some ads persuade while others are forgotten, this episode traces the origins of the answer.The tools may have changed. Human psychology hasn't.Resources:The Man Who Sold America, by Jeffrey L. Cruikshank and Arthur W Schultz https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Sold-America-Advertising-ebook/dp/B003SNJYTYAdvertising Headlines That Make You Rich, https://www.amazon.com/Advertising-Headlines-That-Make-Rich-ebook/dp/B00513MQ2G

Our special guest today didn’t start out planning to be a copywriter, but found his way into it after posting online reviews of his favorite martial arts movies in college, and getting his writing compared to that of Dan Kennedy.He looked up Dan and found what he had to say interesting. But he didn’t become a copywriter or a marketer at the time. Instead, he finished his degree and went from job to job for a few years until he landed in sales, where he ended up doing really well. 12 years after his first internet posting came the crash of 2009. Andrew Gould was the top salesman at his company at the time. But the company itself went under, and Andrew was out of a job. It was then he remembered Dan, and found his way into copywriting.That was 17 years ago.Since then, Andrew has racked up about $150 million in sales for his clients. He’s always been a freelancer and he’s written copy for companies in niches ranging from self-defense to joint mobility to power generators.He’s also taken several hobby businesses from a few thousand dollars a month to $50K and even $100K a month.Copywriters Andrew has coached have had multiple six-figure launches across a wide variety of niches.Andrew says he’s not a great writer himself, but what has helped him do so well is his research.And I quote:“I focus on becoming the audience I’m writing for. For example, I’ve taken hot yoga classes this year for an offer I’m writing.”Andrew told me he loves to focus on the fundamentals, which is something we both have in common. Andrew has a very systematic and easy approach to the fundamentals of understanding people, which ties right into his extraordinary accomplishments in research and the resulting sales.I think this is incredibly valuable information that is not talked about very much, but should be.Andrew agreed to share this approach with us today, and I was really excited to hear what he had to say.You can contact Andrew on X online, at https://x.com/AndrewWriteCopy 

Last week, we did a show on how content marketing is failing direct marketers when you do it the way everyone else does it.Basically, social media encourages you to crave attention and approval, instead of get results.Nathan asked me if we could a completely different version of the show, where we focus on including direct response elements in our content marketing.I thought that was a great idea! So, we’ll do that, and cover the use of direct response thinking and techniques in social media, articles, videos and emails.RESOURCESMy books:The Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQBreakthrough Copywritinghttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1548706957Mentoring:https://garfinkelcoaching.com

Our returning champion today is Kim Krause Schwalm, and she is going to share some amazing and unique information with you.The late Clayton Makepiece, a legend himself in copywriting, said, and I quote: “Kim Krause Schwalm is one of the hottest copywriters alive.”Here’s a little background:Kim was always a marketer who could write copy. Before she launched her freelance career in 1998, she spent years in corporate marketing — from Brand Manager to Publisher — including building the Healthy Directions supplement business to the equivalent of nearly $40 million in sales within its first three years. But we’re talking to Kim today as one of the top A-list direct response copywriters in the country. She's racked up dozens of controls, beat legendary copywriters head-to-head, and was the first female copywriter to create a package that became a Boardroom control. Her clients have included Bottom Line, National Geographic, Green Valley Natural Solutions, and other leading companies across the US, England, Germany, and Singapore. Kim has a bachelor’s in Math and Statistics and an MBA in Marketing. She brings that rare combination of creative instinct and analytical rigor to everything she writes. And, she is the author of the number-one Amazon bestselling book, Client Badassery Secrets.Today, she’s going to share secrets about writing bullet points you simply won’t get anywhere else.Here’s Kim’s offer. There’s really more than I can tell you about. Seven deliverables and three bonuses. Some highlights include• Her Get Dangerously Good Copywriting System• The bullet writing boot camp, which today’s show was drawn from• Kim’s Million Dollar Controls Master Class• Her Supplement Copy Boot Camp… and much, much more. Six more pieces, in fact. Copywriting education I wish I had when I got started.This bundle will only be available until midnight Pacific Daylight Time on Friday, June 19. You’ve got to read about it for a sense of everything you get, and then you can decide if this is for you.Here’s the link:https://kimschwalm.lpages.co/kims-copywriting-vault-for-david-garfinkels-followers/

If you’ve always wondered about content marketing, you’re not alone. It’s a confusing term and there’s no standard definition to describe what it means.It really depends on your point of view.Well, we have a point of view on this podcast, and it is the point of view of direct-response copywriting.Now, to be sure, not EVERY word you write is part of a sales letter, even from our point of view.But every word should lead in some way to a sales process at best or build up the business another way at worst.And a lot of people get lost along the way, chasing shiny objects and striving for accomplishments that really don’t mean very much, outside of the momentary thrill of bragging rights.We’re going to sort things out today so you can decide for yourself what matters and what you should be going after with your content marketing.Links:Cultish Contenthttps://cultishcontent.com/Garfinkel Coachinghttps://garfinkelcoaching.comMy new book, The Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

Social media can be a HUGE waste of time, but sometimes when you’re scrolling you come upon a gem.I did last week, and it led to all kinds of crazy thoughts.I was on Twitter/X, and I discovered this post by lesser known but A-plus screenwriting expert Tom Vaughan, who has written eight films.On Twitter/X, he wrote:I have noticed many younger writers prefer to forgo a romance in their screenplay. This is fine. You don't NEED a romance in a story that's not about the romance. But you do need to fill that space. It's the RELATIONSHIP that is vital. A friend, parent, child, or sibling. Audiences care about relationships. Perhaps more than anything else. And we want to see how those relationships affect the protagonists. For better and for worse. A key job with your screenwriting is to know the most important one in your story.My first thought was, yeah, he’s right. Second thought: Uhh, I need to know more about this.Third thought: OK, wiseguy, that’s fine for MOVIES. But what about copywriting?I did some research and some thinking and you’ll be surprised how much the most famous ads in history involve relationships, as well as the most profitable one ever tracked.I’ll share some interesting and useful information about all this today.ResourcesTom Vaughan’s Twitter/X handle: @storyandplotTom Vaughan’s website:​​https://storyandplot.com/Coaching with me: https://garfinkelcoaching.com

If you’re noticing the advertising landscape changing a lot and changing fast, it’s not your imagination playing tricks on you.Things really are changing.Our special guest a few weeks ago, Mike Pavlish, pointed this out. He noted that “ugly” ads were outperforming “pretty” ones–that is, user-generated content, UGC, homemade ads of a sort, were vastly outperforming slick, polished, high-production-value ones.He’s right, of course.UGC puts a person just like you in the ad. Or at least that’s the intention. Real people, not models and spokespeople. Talking about the product in their own real-life experience.You’re seeing these ads all the time. But how do you make one for yourself?We’ll take a deep dive on that question today.If you’d like help putting together a user generated content program, drop me an email david @ davidgarfinkel . com andwe’ll figure something out together.

People always talk about opening your copy with a story, but most of the time, when you say what kind of story, they’ll look at you like you’re an idiot and say, “Hero’s journey, of course,” like there were no other viable options.Well, the problem with that is, the way the great purveyors of hero’s journey stories, Hollywood Screenwriters, use them is as a macro story. The whole two hour movie is one long hero’s journey.Within that framework are a lot of micro stories. And today we’re going to look at three types of micro stories. Two of them opened blockbuster movies you’re probably familiar with: The Dark Knight and Inception. The third type of micro story propelled the hit movie Rocky to a rousing finish, and provided its most memorable scene.I’ve never known anyone, including my friends in the screenwriting industry, identify these story types, much less show how they can be used to increase attention and desire in sales letters.So you’re in for a world premiere of these techniques. Get out the popcorn.And… if you’d like some help writing stories that are much simpler and more compact than hero’s journey stories, let me invite you to check out my book, The Persuasion Story Code.I walk you through writing 25 different kinds of proven micro sales stories in there. We’ll put a link in the show notes:The Persuasion Story Codehttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

Think about these two things:First, learning to write copy, andSecond, then actually writing it.Wouldn’t it be nice if those two things, learning to write copy and then doing it, were free of confusion, anxiety, and terror?That was the burning question that started me on the path of mentoring copywriters. I wanted to make it happen. Because early on, I had such a rough time learning myself.Learning copywriting was so different from anything I had ever done that it seemed it didn’t matter what I had done before. Anyway, after all this time I’ve gotten pretty good at teaching other people to write copy. And that was after having hit a fair number of home runs with copy I had written myself.I haven’t eliminated confusion, anxiety and terror altogether, but I’ve reduced them by A LOT.And then, along came AI. Problems anew.AI can make things better or worse, depending on what you know and what you know how to do.What do you need to understand that is largely misunderstood out there (which is why we have so many ineffective copywriters)?I can tell you today with absolute certainty.RESOURCESThis is very affordable, if you’re not in a place to make a significant investment in your copywriting education, no matter how much you need it.It’s entirely digital, but with a twist. It was originally a group-coaching product, and there’s a progressive set of exercises everyone does.They’ve retained the feedback the coaches to the same exercises you’ll be doing. There’s also AI advice with each lesson. The coaches include Dr. Harlan Kilstein, Kevin Rogers, Chris Haddad, and me! It’s John Carlton’s Simple Writing System. Here’s my affiliate link:https://m190.isrefer.com/go/swshs/dgarfinkel/The other option is to book a Copy Reset Session with me. We’ll go over a piece of copy, and I’ll critique it for you. Tell youwhat strengths and weaknesses I see. Including in the headline/hook or lead, intrigue and curiosity, easy and clear call to action, use of images and other sensory details, and stories.I’ll tell you how to improve the copy and make specific suggestions you can use right away.We can also look at your positioning or USP. I’ll let you know any quick fixes you can make, as well as suggest long-term structural changes.And, for you to use at no additional cost forever, I’ll give you a custom GPT to review your copy. It will give you a detailed review, with suggestions. I’ve used a similar GPT for my own work.The fee for this session, which we’ll record and you’ll get full access to the recording for your own private use, is 5% of what you’d pay for a year of coaching with me. So it’s an investment, but it’s a very affordable one if you’re serious about your copy.Just send me an email if you’re interested and we can discuss if and see if this is a fit for you. I’ll put my email address in the show notes. It’s david@davidgarfinkel . com

Today we have the fourth and final installment of our hit Old Masters Series segment, Copywriting 101. We’ll be talking about the last seven fundamentals.And if that little voice in your head is asking, “What the heck are we doing reviewing fundamentals?!”, let me remind you of what basketball legend Michael Jordan said: “Get the fundamentals down and the level of everything you do will rise.”It’s so easy to get caught up in the latest new new thing. But a dedication to fundamentals is what helps you get what you really want.So that’s what we’ll cover today.

Our returning champion Mike Pavlish has written dozens of VSLs that have brought in $10 million or more. In fact, over the last 30 years, Mike’s copy has brought in over $810 million in sales. And his work is still bringing in the big bucks today.How good is Mike? On his website he’s got testimonials from legends like Gary Bencivenga and Bob Bly. But this one from an eye doctor named David Tavel, who has 24 clinics across Indiana, really stood out to me:“Your copywriting pulled two to one compared to a big New York ad agency. I have been in business for 45 years and this is the best response ever. The results speak for themselves.”Recently, Mike sent out an email that started out this way:I've been in direct response for over 30 years.I've written over $810 million in sales.I've seen a lot of trends come and go.But what's happening right now is different.The speed of change is like nothing I've everseen.Here are the trends I think every directmarketer needs to watch.I asked Mike to come back on the podcast to talk about these trends.A few days later one of our subscribers who lives in Spain, Norm MacLeod, asked me to invite Mike as well!Mike graciously agreed, and we’ll get to those trends today.Mike’swebsite: https://mikepavlish.com

We’re going through massive and disruptive upheavals all over the place, and of course copywriting is no exception.I’m seeing the need for a complete mindset shift to survive, thrive and even dominate in copywriting.It’s curious to me that the mindset shift is a return to the garden. I know that phrase means a lot of things, depending upon your background.What I mean by a return to the garden is, going back to basics. From the first glimmers of online marketing to the original Facebook analytics and now the unstoppable march forward of AI… ironically, all the non-human things those advances caused are being stripped away from the copy that gets results.What stands out is genuine human messaging, just like in a store or at a bar or at a Starbacks, one person talking to another. These days, more than anything else, that’s what works.With everything that’s happened, we need to make a conscious shift in mindset to get back to the garden and write the kind of copy that was working before all this technological intrusion started and messed things up.And that’s what I want to talk about today. Listen closely–it will make a big difference for you.If you’d like help shifting to this new mindset and developing the skills to go with it, check out my coaching program:https://garfinkelcoaching.com

As we return to our hit Old Masters Series segment, Copywriting 101, I’d like to let you know that the first edition of John Caples’s book Tested Advertising Methods was published in 1932–that’s 94 years ago!Caples updated the book more than once over the decades–the last edition was published in 1998.But the interesting thing is, over that 60 plus year span, the fundamentals remained the same. And they haven’t changed in the last 30 years, either.Just in the same way that storytellers still refer to Aristotle and scientists and engineers still depend on Newton’s three laws of motion, copywriters can reliably depend on the fundamentals Caples laid out. We are going to explore six more of them today.And if a little voice in your head is asking, “What the heck are we doing reviewing fundamentals?!”, let me remind you of what basketball legend Michael Jordan said: “Get the fundamentals down and the level of everything you do will rise.”RESOURCETested Advertising Methods, 5th Edition, by John Capleshttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0130957011

The future for copywriters and AI is pretty clear:AI will not replace copywriters.But… copywriters who know how to use AI will replace those who don’t.Sounds simple enough.However, once you get into it, you realize using AI to create copy that converts sounds easier than it is.And the question boils down to: How do you do it?I’ve been wrestling with that question for a couple years now, and I’ve found the answer.If you already know how to write copy without AI, there’s still some work involved to write copy with AI… but it’s a lot easier.If you really don’t know how to write copy, there are some things you need to learn… or help you need to get… in order to create copy that works using AI.Either way, there’s a path for you to be one of the copywriters of the future… one who knows how to use AI to write copy.That’s what we’ll talk about today.Finally, the best way to find out about the upcoming workshop where I’ll be teaching the five skills and how to get a superior competitive position is to make sure you’re on my Friday email list.If you get an email from me every Friday, you’re on it. Obviously.If not, go to https://persuasionstorycode.comAnd sign up at the bottom of the page.You’ll also get the first two chapters of my bestseller The Persuasion Story Code, absolutely free.And we’ll post the link in the show notes.

Once again we’re back to our Copywriting 101 segments in the Old Masters Series, picking up where we left off a couple weeks ago.This is about copywriting fundamentals. It never hurts to review them, and if you weren’t grounded in fundamentals to begin with, it’s never too late to learn what they are.One of the best sources of an expert list of the fundamentals is John Caples, in his book Tested Advertising Methods. There was nothing fancy or intellectual about what Caples said or did, and yet he was one of the greatest direct response copywriters of all time.So our Old Masters Series turns to the late John Caples for source material. Based on his book, we’ve put together a list of fundamentals that everyone should remember and practice. It’s easy to forget or get distracted by the latest shiny object, but ultimately, to win, you alwayshave to go back to the fundamentals.That’s what we’re going to do today.–Tested Advertising Methods, 5th Editionhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0130957011

Let’s talk about something small.Very small.Small enough that most copywriters are forced tooverlook it, most of the time.Because we’ve all been trained to think in termsof big persuasive assets.The sales letter… the long-form VSL… the casestudy… the big story that carries the whole argument.And those still matter.But that’s not what most of us are writing mostof the time.Most of the time, we’re writing in tight spaces.Openings… transitions… subject lines… leads….things like that.Now, we think about those things, for sure. Weworry about those things. We obsess over those things.But rarely do we think thatwe have room to tell a whole story in those cramped, constrained spaces.Well, recently I’ve been workshopping a new bookcalled Microstories.It’s the next step of a new kind of story aftermy book The Persuasion Story Code.Microstories is a book about compressed persuasion.See, I kept noticing — in my own work and in thework of other copywriters — what I noticed was that sometimes, the smallestnarrative fragments were doing the heaviest lifting.Stories that were just one sentence.Or a mere two lines.And that small fragment would establish credibility…or soothe an objection… or even, shift a belief.All without announcing itself as “a story.”I’m going to share some of my early work fromthe new book today. Stuff you can use right away.My latest book, The Persuasion Story Code:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ 

The big secret of success, whether it’s in investing… in professional sports… or in copywriting, is one in the same: A focus on, and a mastery of, the fundamentals.The legendary basketball player Michael Jordan put it this way: “Get the fundamentals down and the level of everything you do will rise.”We’ve never done a show that just focused on copywriting fundamentals, so what better time than now?And one of the best sources of an expert list of the fundamentals is John Caples, in his book Tested Advertising Methods. There was nothing fancy or intellectual about what Caples said or did, and yet he was one of the greatest direct response copywriters of all time.So our Old Masters Series turns to the late John Caples for source material. Based on his book, we’ve put together a list of fundamentals that everyone should remember and practice. It’s easy to forget or get distracted by the latest shiny object, but ultimately, to win, you always have to go back to the fundamentals.That’s what we’re going to do today.RESOURCE:Tested Advertising Methods, 5th Editionhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0130957011

Our returning champion is Clive Cable, who was here a few weeks agotalking about his new book Neurocopy.As Nathan and I got to know Clive a little better, we found out he hasbeen doing a LOT with AI and copywriting that frankly we haven’t seen anyoneelse do.For example, he has a story-lede generator that comes up with a big idea for asales letter or VSL, and then writes a unique story lede to start the piece.Clive’s created a bot that writes like Gene Schwartz–but he only uses itto write the FIRST PART of a piece of copy. He has another bot that writesprobably the best kind of close he’s ever seen.And he’s taken research to a whole new level using AI.Beyond that, he’s taken the late Chris Marlowe’s brilliant 21 questionprocess for creating copy briefs, and automated it using AI.And there’s even more.Clive is putting together an agency to help copywriters and companies,using his suite of AI tools, to do one of four things:1. Beat a control2. Do in-depth research3. Figure out why something’s not working, and4. Write brand-new copy, right out of the box.We’ll talk later about how you can reach out to Clive if you’d like tofind out more about what he’s doing.But for now, you might want to know Clive got started as a door-to-doorsalesman, offering home improvement products and services for as much as$25,000 a pop–and closing an amazing two out of every three people he talkedto.He’s also an experienced copywriter, and has generated over £40 million,which is over 50 million dollars, across 12 different industries.Clive also built a supplement company that generated £24,000 a month,selling products including colloidal silver, prebiotics and aerobic oxygen.We’ll dig into what Clive’s doing with his virtual AI copywriters.https://clivecable.com/

Dante Aligheri was a copywriter kind of guy. Rather than write in the stuffy, formal Latin which is what everyone else was writing in the 14th century, he wrote in the home boy people’s language of Tuscan.Dante’s masterwork was The Divine Comedy, and his last line was“L'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle”Translated into English, he’s talking about Love–the kind of love that moves the sun and the other stars.Thus proving that even in medieval Italy, LOVE was recognized as the most powerful motivating force in the Universe.Yet, how do we tap into that in our copy and take advantage of this irresistible force.Today’s extremely special guest, Nathan, is here to tell you. Of course you already know Nathan extremely well as the co-host and producer of Copywriters Podcast.But today he’s going to step out of the virtual control room to tell you how to make your prospects fall in love and obsess over your offer, which is something you really need to know, once you think about it.Nathan's websitehttps://cultishcontent.com/

It’s a full-blown crisis. As if writing copy wasn’t hard enough, there’s a new demand falling on the plates of copywriters more and more.And while maybe it’s not fair, it IS real. And it’s important that you know about it, and know what to do about it.Good news. We’ve got just the person to explain what it is and how to come out ahead, looking like a million bucks and being a hero, whether you wear a cape or not.The crisis is one of Design. These days, just as more and more is being expected of copywriters on the word and strategy side, so is more being expected on the Design side.That doesn’t mean you have to be a full-fledged designer to get copy jobs. You don’t.But you do need to know your way around what a well designed ad or web page looks like.And there are details you need to understand and offer ideas about.And our very special guest today and returning champion, Lori Haller of Designing Response, is here to sort it out and straighten it all out for you.Lori works side by side with many of the greatest copywriters of our time to help create control-beating packages, for clients like Boardroom, Healthy Directions, Dr. Al Sears, Nutri-Health, KCI Communications, and Agora.She has coached clients around the world, and she is an in-demand speaker and trainer.I’ve only scratched the surface of Lori’s incredible and long list of credentials. You’d be hard pressed to find someone who knows more or who has done more.Her company, DesigningResponse, based in Germantown, Maryland, has built a reputation for creating award-winning, sales-generating direct mail, online promotions, space advertising, and product development.She knows from up-to-date information in the field what are the new demands and expectations being placed upon copywriters. And she will talk about that today.Lori’s website:https://lorihaller.comReach Lori directly on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-haller-b2840717

These days people talk about neurochemicals a lot. Chemicals like dopamine, and cortisol, and the love chemical, oxytocin.I’ve always wondered how these chemicals are affected by copy, and how much it matters.So imagine my surprise when I discovered what our very special guest was doing! His name is Clive Cable, and he’s not only written a book about this, he has a complete system to evaluate copy based on the neurochemistry the copy will cause, and the buying behavior that chemistry will lead to.The book is called Neurocopy, and it’s the first systematic work I’ve ever seen that shows how copy stimulates certain chemicals, and how those chemicals make people want to buy.Clive is a trailblazer with his pioneering work. But I want to make it clear that he’s not some ivory tower guy sitting in a white coat in a lab measuring blood levels of dopamine and endorphins with a clinical chemistry analyzer.No, Clive’s one of us. He got started as a door-to-door salesman, offering home improvement products and services for as much as $25,000 a pop–and closing an amazing two out of every three people he talked to.He’s also an experienced copywriter, and has generated over £40 million, which is over 50 million dollars, across 12 different industries.Clive also built a supplement company that generated £24,000 a month, selling products including colloidal silver, prebiotics and aerobic oxygen.All of which to say that nothing he says about the process of buying and selling is theoretical. He’s lived it and he lives it.And he’s a great salesperson!I can also say that after I read through his book, I started to feel the effects of cortisol, which is a feeling of high stress, right before high-stakes events, and the effects of endorphins, which is a feeling of relief and satisfaction, after those events ended well.There’s a lot more to all this, as we’ll find out today.Link to get Clive’s new book, “Neurocopy”https://www.lulu.com/shop/clive-cable/neurocopy/paperback/product-w4qjdmn.html

We’re really at a crisis point for a lot of marketers.It’s not just that ads keep getting more expensive.It’s that it just gets harder and harder to get and keep prospects’ attention.And with everything being engineered and optimized by AI and CRO, stuff ends up looking more and more the same. And that only works against you.You know you need to stand out–but how?Well, the best way to get and keep attention is, and always has been, a story.But how long is a story?I mean, a Hero’s Journey story can take hours.And even the type of compact tales I introduced in my book The Persuasion Story Code can take two to three minutes. That’s not very long, but at a time of shrinking attention spans, it’s still too long.Now, you can try using outrageous hooks. But in addition to shrinking attention spans, you’re also fighting against rising levels of skepticism and outright distrust.If you say something that gets attention but just isn’t believable, you’re still sunk.So, what would be ideal to solve this problem?It would be a persuasion story you could tell in 15 or 20 words.Impossible, you say?That’s what I thought until I really started working on it.One of my clients, Ari Nirsissian, helped me quite a lot in the development of my thinking and writing of these new kind of attention magnets, the one-sentence microstory.It really is a story. It really is persuasive.And it really is short!Just the right size for today’s attention spans.Today I’m going to show you, step by step, how I developed three of them… and how I combined them into one electric three-sentence paragraph, which takes less than a minute to read out loud.Resources:To find out more about my book The Persuasion Story Code, check out this link to the Amazon page:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQAnd to find out more about my coaching for experienced copywriters and business owners, go to:https://garfinkelcoaching.com

Today’s show is for every talented copywriter stuck in the feast-or-famine cycle of business and would much rather get paid well, to reflect the enormous value their copy is bringing to their clients.We have a very special returning champion on the show today, Dr. Harlan Kilstein. He has just released a book called Value-Based Copywriting. Originally presented in a $997 seminar, this material has changed the lives and of course careers of some very fortunate copywriters.This book solves the problem faced by thousands of copywriters–not getting paid for what their work is worth.Harlan is a renowned entrepreneur and copywriting expert known for his innovative approaches in marketing, mindset, and personal development.With decades of experience at the intersection of psychology, persuasion, and business strategy, Harlan has built a reputation for helping individuals and companies unlock explosive growth through compelling communication and breakthrough thinking.He’s also a former educator with a doctorate in education. And, Harlan’s a very successful copywriter himself and an expert in NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) and hypnosis.He’ll bring all of this, and more, to bear today. So you may want to take notes while you’re listening to today’s podcast. Lots of money-making information you will be able to use immediately.Harlan’s new book:Value-Based Copywriting: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GCCR64DCMy book The Persuasion Story Code: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

Life must have been at least a little frustrating for our Old Master on today’s show. His name was Walter Weir. He was a very active and successful copywriter and advertising professor, but he must have constantly run into resistance along the way, since so many of his ideas were ahead of their time. Walter Weir was born in 1909 and he died in 1996. He published a couple of books which are nearly impossible to find today. Maybe the publisher, my old employer McGraw-Hill, took them out of print quickly because the ideas were so far ahead of their time that they didn’t sell very well. I don’t know. What I do know is I was fascinated by his ideas. Here are 5 takeaways from an exploration of Weir’s writings and thinking, from today’s show: 1. Write copy that you truly believe, because people can feel it when you don’t. When you don’t believe it, your reader won’t either. And if your reader doesn’t believe it, they won’t buy. 2. Use words that people can FEEL as well as merely understand. Forget about clever word-plays. Say stuff they can feel in their bones. 3. If you’ve got a group going over the copy, write the copy yourself. By yourself. Just you. While a committee can review, only one voice can lead. 4. Forget about features and benefits. Instead, present a description of something someone would feel good about using. People don’t tend to buy just to HAVE something. They buy to FEEL something. 5. Cut everything that doesn’t sound like something a real person would actually say. Because unless it sounds like a human, it won’t reach one. Download.

If you’re involved in copywriting in any way, you know right now we’re at an inflection point. Things have been changing fast over the last two years, and show no signs of slowing down. People who hire copywriters tell me it’s harder than ever to find a good one… yet people who write copy for a living, many of them, tell me it’s really hard to find good-paying work. There’s clearly a disconnect. AI has a lot to do with it. The very definition of what a copywriter is, and what a copywriter does, seems very much in flux. Today I want to suggest five copywriting goals for 2026. These are based on how I was able to help my own mentoring clients solve problems and develop their marketability over the past 12 months. I work with established copywriters and business owners who use direct response, and what I helped them with on a very personal, customized basis would be a good idea for most everyone who listens to this podcast. Links: Copywriting Mentoring: https://garfinkelcoaching.com Persuasive storytelling: The Persuasion Story Code https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ Download.

It takes a lot of courage and a lot of confidence to do what our special guest today has done… and that’s fire all his clients and start an email-based business. But Alin Dragu did just that, and he’s here to tell us about it. He’s the best-selling author of the book Meaningful Marketing, he spent 5 years as direct of marketing at one of the fastest growing churches in the US, and 3 years as the VP of growth at a Christian marketing agency. Alin is definitely a copywriter’s copywriter. He’s obsessed with reading novels and old fiction letters. And he admits he’s secretly obsessed with luxury watches, something Nathan’s a collector of as well. Finally, in case you end up taking Alin to dinner, which probably wouldn’t be a bad idea, you should know he says he’s never refused a steak, ever in his life. Now, here’s what we asked him: 1. So Alin, could you give us a quick tour of what you do? 2. I’m very interested in your S-L-O framework that you use to write all your emails. Could you walk us through that? 3. So as I understand it, your funnel works something like this: - you make youtube videos that promote your lead magnets - when people get the lead magnets, of course they opt-into your list - every day you send one, and I quote, “very entertaining story” while also plugging one of your products - and you get sales every day. I was wondering if we could go through one of those stories and you could break it down for us–like, say, the “I spent $613 on coffee” story? And talk about what makes a great story? 4. You are in a very email-list-dependent business. How do you deal with the issues that come with that, like trolls, unsubscribes, and delivering content every day? 5. You need to come up with a new idea every day. How do you do that without running up against burnout? 6. OK, you do something a lot of people are afraid to do. It’s something Nathan and I strongly recommend, though. Tell us how you sell in every email and get people to keep opening the next email? 7. So tell us about who your list is for and how someone can join. -- Link to get on Alin’s list: https://alindragu.com/ Download.

Last fall, our returning champion Glenn Fisher and his business partner Nick O’Connor teamed up with mega financial publisher Marketwise for a bold experiment: Offer FREE training in financial copywriting to 12 people who competed for the spots. There were 500 people applied. Of the 12 who were selected, Glenn says, four were offered jobs… and two are being mentored by financial copywriting legend Mike Palmer. You know, in many stupid businesses, when something works, the business immediately stops doing it and decides to try something else. Lucky for you, Marketwise is anything but a stupid business. They know a good thing when they see it. So they decided to keep working with Glenn and Nick and run more programs through 2026. And Glenn’s back on the show to tell us what they learned and what’s next… and how you might be one of the lucky 12 in a future cohort! Links: Financial Copy U: https://www.financialcopyu.com/ The Fix, Glenn’s and Nick’s other program: https://thefixcopywriting.com/ Download.

So a lot of people are building their brand by pouring tons of money into traffic… A/B testing… tracking every click… but deep down, you feel that something’s not landing. It’s almost like you wonder if you’re coming across as desperate, rather than confident. Maybe it’s time to take a look at a cherished assumption in online marketing: Namely, that more information and more volume equals more authority. Not really, says our own Nathan Fraser. He’s given me an advance peek at his new book, The Signal. I was so excited by the refreshing ideas he has in there that I wanted him to talk about it on today’s show… and he agreed. Look. Nathan says you should stop begging the algorithm and start commanding attention. And he has some proven ideas on how to do that. Which he’ll share with us today. Here are the questions I asked him: 1. In your book, you say, “Marketing that begs for attention becomes noise. Marketing grounded in conviction becomes signal.” What do you mean by this, and how can someone make sure their marketing has minimum noise and maximum signal? 2. You talk about the Pratfall Effect and how not coming across as “perfect,” or trying to, actually bonds a business with its customers better than trying to appear cool and flawless. How does this work? 3. I love what you say about overexplaining–that it indicates insecurity and this repels rather than attracts the right people. Could you talk about that? 4. So there are two philosophies I’ve seen these days: Omnipresence, where you show up everywhere all the time, and being very selective and making it difficult to get access to you. You’re in favor of the second approach. Why do you feel that way? 5. Your advice for building an attractive signal that draws the right customers to you is to “select, not sell.” What does this look like? 6. You identify five buyer beliefs in a very interesting chapter called “Belief is the Real Funnel.” This is so different from what anyone else I have heard says. I notice that in the five-step funnel you outline, Apple somehow got the first belief to become part of the popular culture. Could you go through these beliefs and make some suggestions about how to create them in an actual funnel? 7. You write "Identity closes deals long before logic ever enters the room." How do you determine how your product changes your prospect’s sense of identity? Get your copy of The Signal at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G5FGMH21 Visit Nathan's site at CultishContent.comDownload.

What was discovered and perfected over 100 years ago, that is one of the most important marketing strategies online today? We have a special Old Masters Series show today. It’s a hybrid between marketing discoveries of the early 1900s, and top moneymakers of 2025. Our old Master is Claude Hopkins. Most people don’t realize that there’s a strong connection between two of the most important principles he wrote about and used – sampling, and demonstration – and what makes for an effective lead magnet in today’s world. For this episode, I went back into two of his most important books, Scientific Advertising and My Life in Advertising. We’ll talk about those first. There are tons of gems in there and these books are well worth reading many times, which I have done myself. So we’re going to focus on a narrow slice of the wisdom on today’s hybrid Old Masters Series show. And then, we’ll catapult into 2025 to see how those ideas have evolved. My Life in Advertising/Scientific Advertising, by Claude Hopkins https://www.amazon.com/dp/0844231010/ Sample Lead Magnet: First Two Chapters Of The Persuasion Story Code https://PersuasionStoryCode.com Download.

Our returning champion today, Dr. Doug Pew, is well known in two different worlds: The world of high-powered copywriting for online course creators, where he has done many six and seven figure launches. And the other world where Doug is known is that of music. He is a composer whose work was actually performed at Carnegie Hall! And he wrote an opera that was performed at the Kennedy Center. Those worlds overlap in certain ways sometimes for Doug, and that’s what we’re going to talk about today. He’s written copy for music businesses like Creative Piano Academy, Lauren Bateman Guitar, Become A Bassist, and J209, an a cappella singing group, who he helped grow their Instagram following to over 15,000 in a couple of months. Most of his work for these businesses has been to create sales, and, as you might expect, selling students into an online music instruction business is different in some ways than other types of copywriting. Yet the differences are fascinating, and they may help you with your own copy, even in non-musical niches. Contact Information: Doug’s Copywriter website is where you can book a call about a copy project: www.dougpewcopywriting.com or can email him directly at [email protected] If you want to check out the music business, you can visit… https://latterdaymusiversity.com/ Download.

Do you have an imaginary friend? Whether you do or not, today we’re going to talk about why a particular imaginary friend can solve one of the biggest problems copywriters are having today. And that problem is, your copy’s not connecting with the right target group of prospects. So your conversions are way lower than you’d like them to be. Now, the perfect solution to that would be to have a real-live focus group of honest, unflinching prospects available to you 24/7. People you could ask about their problems, their fears, their hopes, their dreams. But… sorry. You can’t. However, what we’re going to talk about today is the next best thing. And the good news is, you can build this imaginary friend pretty easily from real-world data. So you get the equivalent of your 24/7 focus group, but it’s not high-maintenance. In fact, it doesn’t require any care and feeding at all. Download.

Ever spend hours, just waiting for the “perfect time” to start writing? Maybe first you decide to do a guided visualization. Or answer a few emails. Could be that there’s that perfect song that always gets your juices flowing… or a motivational youtube video you love… Well… Here’s a tip: Don’t wait and don’t find an excuse to do something else. Just start. I know it sounds crazy. Maybe impossible. But here’s the thing: When you’re not writing, it almost never “feels like” the right time to start writing. And, as it turns out, it’s nearly always better to write something bad than to write nothing at all. As the great Gary Halbert said, “Motion is better than meditation.” That is what we’ll talk about today. Download.

What if you found you were sitting on tons of money that you didn’t even know about? It sounds like the beginning of a new Netflix series, right? But this happened in real life to our returning champion, Agency owner and entrepreneur Cath Rehorn. She will be the first to admit that numbers are not her. She’s a words and people person, not a data ninja. But she developed a conversation with ChatGPT to get it to review her Stripe data, even though, as she also admits, at first she really didn’t have any idea what she was doing. And she realized that with minimum effort–like, mainly, sending out a few emails–she could add 54,000 British pounds, or about $70,000 US, to her revenues every year. And with only a little more effort, she reckoned, she could bring in even more. Her thought process and how she tackled a clumsy problem with such persistence and humor should be of interest, and possibly very valuable, to anyone who runs a business and even does a pretty bad job of keeping track of their numbers. You probably remember Cath because her podcast, titled Selling Them With Kindness, got a lot of engagement and some really heartfelt comments from listeners. Cath’s business is called Kind Copy. She lives in Wales in the UK. She has a true family business, since it employs herself, her husband, her sister and 2 other team members. Article about how Cath used ChatGPT: https://catherinereohorn.substack.com/p/i-got-more-clarity-on-my-business?r=1xjc2 Cath’s website: https://kindcopy.co.uk/ Cath’s social media links: https://x.com/kindcopy https://www.instagram.com/kindcopyuk/ Download.

Our very special guest today is Angus Fletcher, professor of story science at Ohio State’s Project Narrative. His research has been called “life-changing” by Brené Brown and “mind blowing” by Malcolm Gladwell; has been endorsed by psychologists, neuroscientists, and doctors such as Martin Seligman and Antonio Damasio; and has been supported by institutions ranging from the National Science Foundation to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. In 2023, he was awarded the Commendation Medal by the U.S. Army for his “groundbreaking research” with U.S. Army Special Operations into primal intelligence. His latest book is called Primal Intelligence: You Are Smarter Than You Know. There are very few books or writers who have affected me as much as Angus and this book have. In the few weeks since I have read it, my coaching has changed. My thoughts about intuition, imagination and emotion have changed. I’ve watched close to 20 videos featuring Angus on youtube… and I don’t typically ever watch that many videos about one person. Dr. Fletcher says that as humans, we think in story, not in words or pictures. He has plenty of research and street cred to back this up. Hollywood studios consult with him regularly. In addition to everything else, he’s a screenwriter, and a very compelling author. I could go on and on but that wouldn’t leave much time for us to talk, would it? So I will start with something familiar, and soon you will discover how mind-blowingly different some of Angus’s groundbreaking ideas are. But first, the amazingly familiar part… Copy is powerful. You’re responsible for how you use what you hear on this podcast. Most of the time, common sense is all you need. But if you make extreme claims... and/or if you’re writing copy for offers in highly regulated industries like health, finance, and business opportunity... you may want to get a legal review after you write and before you start using your copy. My larger clients do this all the time. 1. A lot of people in the direct marketing community have felt boxed-in by the conventional wisdom that the only true kind of story is a hero’s journey. I believe you have a very different point of view about stories, that includes that anatomy of the brain. Could you tell us about it? 2. Let’s talk about primal intelligence. When I first found out about your book and before I read it, my guess about primal intelligence was, well, pretty primal. Lizard brain stuff. That is, the animal description that you either mate with something, or you kill it, or you eat it. You have a different and I think much more sophisticated and I would say much more useful definition of primal intelligence and it has to do with four qualities of thinking that have nothing to do with logic. Could you talk about that? 3. Our listeners are copywriters and business owners who use direct response copy in their businesses. Pragmatic creativity is high on the list of capabilities people always want to increase. Could you share your thoughts on what creativity is, from the point of view of primal intelligence? And how to increase our abilities to be creative? 4. In your book there’s a surprisingly long list of people, including politicians, scientists and even a famous classical composer, as well as writers, who have mentioned Shakespeare as a major influence in their lives. What is it about Shakespeare’s work that is so valuable to all these people? 5. Can you give us some more tips about using stories in our content and advertising that will capture people’s attention and help us with our businesses? 6. Tell us about your work with Army special operators? 7. Would you like to give us a preview of the book Primal Intelligence? Links: Primal Intelligence https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Intelligence-Smarter-Than-Know/dp/0593715306 Angus’s LinkedIn Address https://www.linkedin.com/in/angus-fletcher-99713617/ Download.

A lot of people struggle with email marketing. Today’s special guest, Tom Ruwitch, has been at it for a quarter of a century… and he’s discovered some pretty interesting things about using stories to sell, as well. In 2001, Tom founded an email marketing business called MarketVolt. This was very early in the online business revolution. His company licensed their software to businesses worldwide, and used it themselves as part of a full-service agency. He sold the business in 2019. In 2021, Tom launched Implementum, a marketing platform that creates strategy, done-for-you custom campaigns, and provides training. We’ll talk about that, but first we’re going to talk about his impressive and very useful new book, Story Power Marketing. His simple and practical approach puts storytelling in marketing within the reach of just about anyone, whether you consider yourself a storyteller or not. Links: Story Power Marketing: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1964046335 Get a free copy at https://yourgiftfromtom.com/david Tom’s Website: https://storypowermarketing.com/ Download.

As we record this in mid-October, the world has without a doubt gone absolutely bonkers over AI. People are making all kinds of extreme predictions: Some see a heaven on Earth in a future with AI, and others confidently predict unmitigated disaster. But how many of these people are talking from actual in-the-trenches experience? Who can take the long view based on what they’ve actually done and seen… and an informed view of what’s possible for the future? I personally know only one person who fills that bill, and he’s our returning champion. He’s Sam Woods, our very special guest today. Sam has been in the game for nine years, while most of us haven’t been there half as long. In fact, when it comes to AI and copywriting, I don’t know of anyone who’s been in it longer than Sam has. He got started with machine learning in 2016 and generative AI in 2019. He was a pioneer in prompt engineering for AI copywriting, and marketing. Sam has advised Fortune 1,000 companies and teams across the world, as well as advised and consulted with CEOs and other C-Suite executives. He describes himself as “a strategic AI architect who advises C-Suite leaders on turning artificial intelligence into their most powerful competitive advantage.” But more important to us, he’s a seasoned and successful expert using AI for writing copy that gets results. Who better than that to help us see the bigger picture? Sam’s website: https://samueljwoods.com/ Other resources: https://bionicbusiness.com https://www.copywriting.ai/ Download.

Our guest today does something I’ve been looking for in a guest on this podcast for a long time–he helps beginning copywriters get started and become success. Matthew Volkwyn is a coach, copywriter, marketer and entrepreneur. He doesn’t just talk the talk; he walks the walk. Matt has helped dozens of business coaches rapidly grow their own businesses with email marketing, a he’s built three six-figure businesses of his own. I invited Matt on after he had me as a guest on his podcast, and I found out he coaches beginning copywriters, which I don’t do myself, since my clients are more experienced copywriters and business owners who use copy. I suggested he come on and we have a nuts and bolts conversation about coaching copywriters, and he readily agreed. Matthew’s links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/matthewjvolkwyn Copy Systems: https://www.skool.com/copysystems/about Copy Dojo: https://www.copydojo.com/ Download.

Have you ever been in a meeting where people are brainstorming ideas, and each idea is more idiotic and off-target than the last one? It has happened to all of us. And if you’re an experienced copywriter, sometimes it’s hard to bite your tongue. Because the cheerful but inexperienced leader of the meeting has announced a rule: “There are no bad ideas!” Well, yes there are. In that meeting, you just heard a whole pile of them. I can almost guarantee what the problem was. There are several steps, including a crucial step, that everyone in the meeting never took. Falling in love with uninformed, aimless creativity is one of the biggest causes of wasted advertising dollars imaginable. And I’m going to tell you that missing piece, that missing step. I can’t promise that everyone in the next meeting will take it ahead of time. But if they do, I promise you’ll get much better ideas, even if you’re the only copywriter there. Books: Applied Imagination, by Alex Osborn https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009CXTZ84/ Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich, by David Garfinkel https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00513MQ2G Download.

Legendary NY Yankee Yogi Berra said it best: “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” He’s right, you know. But there’s one important exception, and I don’t blame Yogi because, as talented a player and a coach as he was, Yogi wasn’t a copywriter. So he didn’t know about the important exception we’ll talk about today: showing your prospect a compelling future. Not every copywriter does this, but if you don’t, you’re missing out… on conversions. And even if you do, we’re going to talk about a better way to show a compelling future than most people are currently using. If you like the stories on today’s show and you’d like to find out about a lot more, that will really power up your copy, let me invite you to check out my book The Persuasion Story Code. It’s on Amazon and we’ll put a link in the show notes. The Persuasion Story Code https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ Download.

A little over a month ago we did a last-minute podcast about an audacious experiment our special guest today, Nick O’Connor, did with Glenn Fisher and the financial publishing giant Marketwise: Glenn told us how they put together a special program called Financial Copy U, which would train 12 copywriters ABSOLUTELY FREE on how to write copy for financial publishers. With the understanding that some graduates might be offered full-fledged copywriting jobs on the spot, depending, of course, how they did in the training. Now that Financial Copy U is in full swing, we asked Nick to tell us more about what he and Glenn did and are doing right now. Seeing as there’s not enough other solid training for financial copywriting going on right now, at least that I know of, I realize Nick has a lot of valuable information for us. Among his many impressive accomplishments, Nick was Head of Copy and Publisher for Agora’s financial imprint in the UK, Southbank Investment Research. Today, as well as co-founding The Fix, he writes freelance for financial publishers in the UK, US and Australia and consults with Agora companies around the world. Nick told us about the origin of Financial Copy U, why he, Glenn and Marketwise decided to do it, the difference between winning applications to the program and those that didn’t make it, and a lot more. Great information about financial copywriting and copywriting in general! For more info about the program: https://www.financialcopyu.com Download.

It’s the sure-fire strategy that makes you overconfident. It looks like this: The copy’s loud. Aggressive. Alpha-male on a double dose of adderall. It’s practically SCREAMING at you to buy. And you know what? Sometimes it works. But not most of the time. Especially these days. Hyper-aggressive copy is just a huge risk you don’t want to take. And here’s why: While it’s true that pressure might trigger an action, it almost never creates belief. And belief is what you need to MAKE the sale… and KEEP the sale. My co-host Nathan is going to lead us out of the land of testosterone intoxication and into an exciting new world, of calmly and irreversibly creating BELIEF in your copy… so pressure isn’t necessary. Because when they believe… they buy. Find out more about Nathan's approach at https://cultishcontent.com/ Download.

Today we take a deep dive into the part of copywriting that people talk about all the time. And even though people talk about this all the time, most of them don’t really understand it. That is, psychology. Not the kind of psychology you experience in a therapist’s office—although there’s a little bit of overlap. Not what you’ll find in brightly colored grid of buyer personas. Not mindset. No, we’re talking about the psychology that has to do with how people really behave. What actually makes them respond. This is the kind of psychology that proves out over and over again, through unforgiving tests in the marketplace. We’ll call it “copywriting psychology.” It’s the psychology behind copy that converts. And here’s the thing: It’s not always polite. It may not even be pleasant. And sometimes, it’s offensive to the way people look at the world. But copywriting psychology is not trying to win a popularity contest. Instead, it’s trying to answer a very serious, and sometimes uncomfortable, question. That is: Does it convert? Remember, we’re talking about persuasion in the wild here. After all, when they’re looking at your copy, your prospects aren’t really sitting in a focus group, ponderously exploring their feelings and trying to express them so as to look good in front of others. Here’s what your prospects are really doing: They’re scrolling through emails… half-watching TikTok videos… and trying to remember where they left their debit card. Copywriting psychology doesn’t rely on a theory or a particular set of beliefs. It relies on observed and measured behavior. Therefore, to get really good at this, you learn not to listen so much to what people say… but to pay very close attention to what they do. When I mentor clients, a large part of what we do ends up coming from developing an almost sixth sense for copywriting psychology. What we’ll do here today is a crash course to help you move to the next level in this important set of copywriting tools. So, a couple of resources for you if you really want to get copywriting psychology under your belt. If you are a working copywriter with at least two years’ experience and in the six figure level of income, you should consider applying for mentoring with me. I don’t work with beginners, but if you have a successful business and you write copy, or you have a strong freelance copywriting business, check out my mentoring. It’s a serious one-year program and it can easily take you to the next level. It’s expensive, but clients find again and again that it more than pays for itself. In fact, some of them, who run 9 figure businesses, have stayed with me for years. And some freelance copywriters have as well. Now, what we talked about today is just a small part of the copywriting psychology we cover during the year, because most of it comes up when we go over projects and promotions you’re actively working on. You can find out more, including the application, at https://garfinkelcoaching.com The second resource is for everyone and I can’t recommend it highly enough, even though I wrote it. This week I got two messages from clients who were bragging they got someone else to get the book. Why? Because the information in it can really make a big difference in your copy and in your business. And I haven’t seen the same information anywhere else. Of course I’m talking about The Persuasion Story Code. It’s on Amazon and here’s the link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ Download.

Sometimes copy fails because it’s just not executed well enough. And also, copy that simply misses the mark — doesn’t align with the target prospects and what’s on their minds — won’t do well either. But you can have all the fundamentals in place and done well, and sales can still fail to happen. Why? That would be because the strategy behind the copy was weak or even non-existent. Today, we’re talking about a blind spot that kills a lot of otherwise good copy—and how our special guest today, Jamie Thompson, coaches copywriters how to see what others miss entirely. That would be, of course, strategy and strategic thinking. Jamie’s a seasoned pro. Headquartered in Edinburgh, Scotland, he’s been writing copy for 10 years and counts among his clients such giants as Amazon, USAID, and Lenovo. But he’s had many other clients—over 500 in all. And lately he’s made it his mission to teach copywriters how to think like strategists. 80% of Jamie’s clients come back for return engagements. So you’ll definitely want to know some of what he knows. Follow up with Jamie: Free course, Think Like A Strategic Copywriter: https://brandnewcopy.com/free-copywriting-course/ Contact: [email protected] Download.

Three weeks ago, we had a very special Old Masters Series show: The Art of War, Copywriting Edition. But we only covered half the book, so that made the previous episode Part 1. Today we cover the rest of the book, Chapters 7 through 13. And that makes today Part 2. Here’s what you need to know: The Art of War was written by Sun Tzu (SOOON-tzeh) about 2500 years ago, as a treatise on military strategy. The Art of War reaches far beyond military warfare, however. Business overachievers like Elon Musk and Mark Benioff, founder of salesforce, are among many who have praised this book. That’s because the principles in this book are universal and very powerful in any situation where you’re in a struggle–and getting people to buy from the written word certainly counts as a struggle. Today you'll see exactly how Sun Tzu's principles, when applied to copy, can help you sharpen your copy, position your offers better, and persuade prospects more naturally. I’ve gotta tell you, I was surprised when I was preparing this how easily his principles can be applied to copy. Now, there’s a reason The Art of War has lasted for more than two thousand years. It’s not just because people like reading about swords and spears. It’s because the way Sun Tzu thought about winning applies anywhere there’s competition — whether it’s two armies on a field, two companies in a market… or you, sitting at a keyboard, trying to out-sell the other guy. When you’re writing copy, you’re not just “putting words together.” You’re maneuvering. Positioning. Adapting. Watching for the right moment to strike. If you’ve ever had a great piece of copy flop… or a headline you loved get ignored… or a competitor suddenly steal your customers… …you’ve felt the same frustration a general feels when the plan falls apart halfway through the battle. Sun Tzu didn’t leave that to chance. He studied how to win before the fight began — and how to keep control until the very last move. Today, we’re going to tap into the last seven chapters of his book. These are the chapters about keeping your opponent guessing… matching your tactics to the exact ground you’re on… knowing when to press hard and when to pull back… and gathering the kind of intelligence that lets you win before the other side knows what happened. Download.