Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (twin brothers in their 20s, from Mesa Arizona, brother Sam died by suicide 16 while they were missionaries) talk about their work: * Being mental health advocates and fitness coaches to help others find hope and end shame * Helping those who are suicidal find hope and how Sam tied his identity to perfectionism * Normalizing honest and vulnerable discussions—how these are healthy male attributes * Coping with grief—how they turned to overeating and pornography use—how they learned to heal through Jesus and therapy * How shame dies in opening up and vulnerability * Their work to support the LGBTQ community * What we can do in our families and church communities to make it safer for suicidal folks to open up Jake and Joe are on a mission to bring people closer to Christ, reduce shame, role-model vulnerability, and help others find hope. I am deeply moved by and supportive of their work. They inspire me. Please listen/share this episode and contact with their social media platforms (see below). And (as mentioned in the podcast) if you are in a position to help them set up a 501c non-profit (or help an any way you feel inspired) please reach out to them. I feel impressed their work is just beginning in our community. Thank you, Jake and Joe, for all your great work. Honored to have you on the show. Links: Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit Earlier episode 811: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-811-jake-and-joe-sharp-lost-brother-sam-to/id1347971725?i=1000691741343 Richard Ostler Substack on masturbation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-215364913

My friend Pam Shepherd, a communications professional at George Mason University and a sixth-generation Latter-day Saint, joins us to share some of her journey growing up Mormon while not always feeling like she fit the traditional Mormon mold. Pam talks about navigating that experience at BYU and later as a young single adult in the Washington, DC area. She also discusses her desire to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women (ages 18-29) on a variety of issues. That curiosity led to a research project for which she is currently seeking anonymous survey participants (see show notes for details). Thank you, Pam, for sharing both your personal story and the motivation behind this important research. Your experiences navigating life both within and outside traditional Mormon expectations give you a unique perspective as you seek to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women. I appreciate your willingness to undertake this work and contribute meaningful data to an area where little research currently exists. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast. If you are a Gen Z LDS woman, I encourage you to fill out Pam’s survey. Survey: https://gmu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eE9q7qaZAsdbAHA Email: [email protected] Instagram: @pammyshep

My friend Parker Vassau (married father of 3, business owner—marketing and pest control, longtime friend) joins us to share his story: Unexpected illness at age 14—tumor, complications, and not being able to eat for four months Principles to serve a successful mission—Parker knows this well after serving in Bulgaria. Not being defined by his ACT score of 16 Vision a BYU teacher have game him—acting on that vision—hard work and sacrifice to make it happen Supporting the many young men that are part of his businesses including being a safe place Starting his podcast called “The Committed Man” (see show notes) Insightful comments about mental health Powerful tribute to his step-father Darl McBride and our dear family friend (who died in Sept 2024 of ALS) Thank you my friend Parker for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help and build others. You inspire me. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with Parker’s podcast. Links: The Committed Man podcast: www.committedman.com Parker on IG: @parker.vassau

Matt Mosman (friend from BYU MBA school, prior senior vice president of development at Oracle, currently general parter of venture capital firm in Salt Lake, well known expert on mergers and acquisitions), joins us to share the story of being called as the High Councilor over the Bay Ward in San Francisco and all they did to help the gay men and women feel welcome at Church. Those efforts including calling an “openly gay man” Mitch Maynes into the Bishopric as the executive secretary and sending a letter out to all ward members they are welcome and won’t be excommunicated for showing up at Church. Matt talks about speaking throughout the Stake on better supporting LGBTQ members and how he handed “the heat his took” for his advocacy. He talks about how God created His queer children as intended and we should look at them as beloved children of Heavenly Parents. Matt wrote a powerful essay called “How to Read Your Religion’s Foundational Texts” (see show notes) where he powerfully shares his feelings on: * Jesus’s strongest condemnation was for the Pharisees—and how that applies today * The parable of the Good Samaritan—best summary I’ve ever read Further, Matt is completely clear about why he stays in the Church and how he feels about where the Church is with its LGBTQ members: “What I mean by "cafeteria Christian" is this: a person who accepts large portions of their tradition's teaching while consciously declining others. I am one of these people. I am a committed member of my own denomination. I believe deeply in its foundational claims. I try to live according to its principles. Yet there are positions my church holds on certain matters — including, specifically, the treatment of LGBTQ members — where I have concluded, after long and prayerful consideration, that my tradition is simply wrong. I hold that view while remaining within the tradition, because I understand my faith to be larger than any single institutional position.” One of Matt’s gifts is being bold and clear—and he uses that gift to talk about how to better support our LGBT friends. Matt—who is politically left—also talks about speaking up to share how he feels even if it is a minority position. Matt shares his son coming out as gay several years after Matt’s High Council assignment and how that was a non-event—as a closest youth he already knew his Dad loved him as he saw-first hand his Dad’s advocacy—super powerful parenting experience for us all to consider. Thank you, Matt, for being on the podcast and all you do to help create Zion by helpful everyone feel welcome, loved and needed. You are a good man. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this powerful episode. Links: Matt’s essay: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hd1utwih1h1qagx2eg0qn/How-to-Read-Your-Religion-s-Foundational-Texts-by-Matt-Mosman.pdf?rlkey=81quise3my3vii3brjri5jz74&dl=0

My friend Doug Staker (father of three, Master of Architecture from UCLA, Principal Architect with Squaremoon Studio, lives in Salt Lake City) joins us to share the story of the genesis of Sanctuary—a physical structure representing safely/love/acceptance that was first part of Utah Pride in 2018. Doug talks about his gay brother Thomas and becoming curious and going on a trip where he asked, “tell me about your life”. Doug talks about how this transformed his perspective about queer people and felt spiritually called to ally and use his creative and architecture expertise. This spiritual impression led to the creation of sanctuary that has been part of Utah Pride four different times. Doug talks about being at the Encircle gala and connecting with Autumn McAlpin (film producer, mother of two queer children) which led to the creation of Sanctuary—a full length powerful documentary film about LGBTQ Latter-day Saints (see show notes on how to watch/share this must-see film). Doug talks about two of his children coming out as queer (trans and bi-sexual) and his journey to love and accept them—super powerful. Thank you, Doug, for being on the podcast and sharing your remarkable story of using your God given talents to love and support our queer friends. Thanks for following your spiritual impressions to walk into this space and make a difference. Thank you, Autumn McAlpin, and Vienna Boyes (all the entire team) for your efforts to direct, produce and release this deeply moving documentary—I was so moved watching it a few months ago. I invite everyone to listen to Doug’s podcast and watch/share Sanctuary. Links: Doug’s Sanctuary project website: https://www.squaremoon.art/ Sanctuary Documentary: https://sanctuarydoc.com/

My friend Dan Hamby (married father of four) joins us to share his super powerful story of meeting with and ultimately forgiving the man who murdered his father Everett when Dan was 7 years old. Dan talks he wasn’t looking to connect with or forgive his father killer—but how that unlikely connection was established by his seminary teacher. Dad talks about how forgiving his father killer helped him in ways he didn’t know he needed. Dad talks about meeting with his father’s killer after his mission and how they helped him better understand God love for all of us and how our “value never changes” This is one of the most powerful and moving podcasts we’ve ever done. A must listen. If you are navigating the unfairness and wounding of life, please listen to Dan’s story along with his testimony of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal. It will give you more hope and vision of the possibilities in your future. Thank you, Dan, for being on the podcast. I was so moved and uplifted listen to your story—a story that gives all of us more vision on the power of forgiveness. Links: Facebook: www.facebook.com/dan.hamby IG: @dan_hamby72 e-mail: [email protected]

My friendCameron Call (age 40, lives in Arizona, chiropractor, mixed orientation married for ten years, divorced seven years ago, father of three, married his husband 18 months ago) joins us to share his super vulnerable and powerful story: * Navigating gay pornography as a teenager and his attraction to men * Terrified he might be attracted to men—did everything he could to not be gay * Serving a mission in Nashville Tennessee—positive experience—felt he would be OK * Became EFY counselor and got married within a year after his mission * Super honest about struggling with sexual intimacy early (and throughout) their marriage. That—plus male infertility—caused Cameron to feel absolutely defeated * Eventually came out as gay to his wife (positive experience). * Tried to make the marriage work—but eventually it became clear the best path was to end their marriage. * Divorce became the “healthy option” * Cameron’s incredible parents and siblings—their lifesaving love and support. Pride flag at parents’ home * Finding his husband and getting married 18 months ago—so much joy and happiness * While out of the Church, supporting kids in the Church (lives in the kids Ward boundaries) * Navigating anger at the Church—how his family, especially his mom, has been a safe person to process all this with * Good relationship overall with his ex-wife and her new husband. They took a family trip with their entire blended family - six coparents and ten children. Thank you, Cameron, for coming on the podcast and sharing your story. This is one of the finest episodes to know there is hope and a life after divorce. It is also a super powerful episode on the near impossible path our gay/lesbian members walk and the tradeoffs they face that straight people don’t face. It is also a powerful episode to help younger queer people find hope. Thank you, Cameron, for coming on the podcast. You are a good man. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Instagram: @cw_call Facebook: www.facebook.com/cameron.call

My friends Dave and Kirty Zimmerman (married parents of four, active LDS, live in Utah County) join us to share their story of loving/supporting their gay son Dallin who came out at age 13 and is currently serving a mission. Highlights include: * Age 13: “Mom, What if I’m Gay?” * Dave, Kirty, and Dallin walking that road alone for three years without telling anyone. Very difficult road for all three. Positive and negative ward experiences. * Watching the “light go out” of Dallin—and how coming out helped everyone * Dallin (working closely with his parents but letting Dallin take the lead) coming out to family, friends, and his Ward family * Working closely with the Bishop and Ward Council to counsel together and how to best support Dallin—super helpful * Helpful Bishop and Stake President * No pressure for Dallin to serve a mission—yet Dallin chose this so he “could share God’s love with others” * In the celestial room together with Dallin sharing he will never be able to make the next temple covenant—knowing he won’t be able to make it work with a woman * Importance of support for LDS parents walking this road—and how the Ward family can make all the difference for their journey with the Church * Kirty: “Some of the best parts of Dallin are the parts that are gay” * Importance of letting LGBTQ people use the labels they prefer—and how telling people not to take on a label creates shame—and how that is inconsistent with other LDS groups This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on how to support a queer child (out in early teenage years) navigating that with friends, family, and church community. So insightful—and helps all of us consider what we can do to support closeted families in our circle of influence. Also, one of the finest podcasts to help us better understand, support, and love a younger queer Latter-day Saint. Thank you, Dave and Kirty, for being on the podcast and sharing your family story. Thanks for your courage to do this. You are helping create Zion. Much love and respect to the Zimmerman family. Thank you Elder Dallin Zimmerman for allowing your parents to share your story. I feel you are concurrently serving two missions—your mission in South American and your mission with your powerful story being shared—both to help everyone know God loves them. ** Note: Dave and Kirty with be part of a parent breakout session at Gather (Nov 12-14 in Provo, Utah). See show notes for more information and how to register ** Links: Instagram @dave_zman: https://www.instagram.com/dave_zman Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dizzi45Z Instagram @kirtyz: https://www.instagram.com/kirtyz Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirtyz Gather Conference Nov 12-14: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather Faith Matters Episode: https://www.faithmatters.org/p/when-your-child-comes-out-as-gay

My friend Dr. Taylor Petrey (prior editor of Dialogue: a journal of Mormon thought, BA in philosophy and religion from Pace University, and both an MTS and a Th.D. degree from Harvard Divinity School in New Testament and Early Christianity, Professor at Kalamazoo College) joins us to talk about his new Dialogue article called: “History and Theology of Trans and Nonbinary Identity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see show notes). Taylor powerful article takes us through the Church’s history to address transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saint issues starting in the 1970’s through the latest policy statements in 2024 (super painful for many transgender/non-binary folks and their families). Taylor talks about how society generally moved on from the wedge issue of same-sex marriage to a new fear-based wedge issue of transgender and non-binary folks and how that has informed many church members feelings on this topic. Taylor—through extensive interviews with transgender and non-binary folks—talks about how they feel about being transgender/non-binary and how those insights should help inform us how we should feel about them. Taylor—a noted theologian—talks about possible ways our theology has room for our transgender/non-binary friends. I learned so many from Taylor. I encourage everyone to read his Dialog article, listen to this episode, and listen to lots of transgender/non-binary to inform our insights/conclusions about these good folks. Thank you, Taylor, for you much needed work in our community. Links: Taylor’s Dialogue Article: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/history-and-theology-of-trans-and-nonbinary-identity-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints/ Other Dialogue Transgender Content: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/curated-topics/transgender/

My friend Lucas Montoya (gay/queer, mid-20s, lives/works in Texas, RM, University of Chicago graduate) joins us to share his powerful story: * Founding of “RELIC” by LDS connected students at the University of Chicago (community, support, and Journal) * Overview of the articles in the RELIC Journal (see show notes) * Writing is a tool for building community * Lucas’ own journey to go from deep shame/internalized homophobia—to deep acceptance of his queerness * Powerful personal revelation—his personal “Pearl of Gay Price”—to accept/love his queerness. This is title of his RELIC Journal article * How personal prayer helped him in the coming out process (mission president and parents) * How dating men helped him learn his is lovable—helped him feel hope for this future—“lock box key” Thank you, Lucas, for sharing your powerful story of self-love and acceptance. Your story helps other queer people find hope in their lives. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Thanks for all you have done to bless so many along the way. Honored to have you on the podcast. Thanks for your efforts to build Zion. I encourage everyone to listen to and share Lucas’ podcast and check out RELIC. Links: RELIC website: https://uchicagorelic.org RELIC Journal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UFhYa5kAehdp_mSwfdxvdIfZuTYwjLIH/view Salt Lake Tribune Article: Salt Lake Tribute Article: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2026/08/22/lds-students-dallin-oaks-alma/

My friend Olivia Burnett (mid-20s, Utah State graduate, University of Utah MBA) joins us to share her some of her personal story and her groundbreaking and highly successful podcast called “Twenty Something with Olivia Burnett” (see show notes). * Death of her dad Kevin and the resulting depression * Super honest and vulnerable sharing of her depression (feeling lost, forgotten and confused), what was helpful, what was not helpful and how things improved * Positive take on anger—super insightful * Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us * Life in the “messy middle” * Her new and super successful podcast called “Twenty Something with Olivia Burnett”. Why she started it and what she hopes to accomplish * Why she stays in the Church and her advice for others trying to stay in the Church Thank you, Olivia, for being on the podcast and bravely sharing your story. And mega respect for your new podcast—the work you are doing in our community is so needed. Thank you for helping everyone feel God’s love and Christ in their lives. You are awesome. I encourage everyone to follow and share Olivia’s podcast. Links: Instagram: @twenysomething_podcast YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs83WX_XVbjT1VENrzl3TKQ TikTok: @twentysomething_podcast E-mail: [email protected] Olivia’s Dad Kevin’s Obituary: https://www.premierfuneral.com/obituaries/kevin-burnett-2/obituary

My friend Hannah Larson (age 30, lives in New York, RM, founder of Humans of BYU, former seminary teacher, single) joins us to share her story. Hannah talks about: Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us—and deep desire for everyone to feel that . Author of Diary of a Mormon Girl Teaching seminary—but being let go after one year. Super traumatizing experience. Put her whole soul into that assignment to help her students feel God’s love and being a safe place. Experienced pain of patriarchy, went into deep depression, how/why she didn’t leave the church Proactively met with prior Priesthood Leaders who harder her—mixed experiences—super brave—discussion of gaslighting How she is now on the margins as an unmarried 30-year-old How her value isn’t about “who she might be dating”—but her relationship with Jesus Christ Creating a safe community online & IRL for people in the church who want to discuss the complicated issues (see show notes) Why so many Gen Z women are leaving the church—and the need for honest conversations Her upcoming new book about finding God in her romantic relationships and dating experiences . Hannah is one of our bravely guests as she talks about the patriarchy/sexism/gaslighting that is part of our culture and how she is navigating those issues. Hannah talks about making it “all about Jesus” and how important that framework is to moving forward. Please check out Hannah’s social media (see show notes) to connect with her needed work in our community. Thank you, Hannah, for being on the podcast. You give me hope. You are awesome! Links: Hannah’s IG: @honest_han Substack: hannahklarson.substack.com

My friend John Bushman (30+ years teaching Institute/Seminary) joins us to talk about his new book “King Before Kingdom: Faithful Revival Within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. In this episode and his book, John talks about specific areas we can improve our culture so that more feel welcome and needed. John also talks about moving from a checklist/legalistic approach to living the gospel—to making it all about coming unto Christ. John offers valuable doctrinal insights from the scriptures that support this approach—and what we can do better to support others. If you are looking for a much-needed book to read and share with others, please listen to this episode and read John’s book. Thank you, John for writing this book, being on the podcast, and your decades of teaching to help others come unto Christ. Your discipleship is so needed in our community. You give me hope. Links: John’s website (with links to the book): www.johnbushman.com or https://www.johnbushman.com/king-before-kingdom.html There you can read a sample chapter or listen on audio. Also links to other podcasts and reels on Social Media. Also reviews on Amazon and the many ways to buy the book.

My friend Jon Larsen (married father of three, lives in Cedar City, 25+ years clinical experience) and Brooklyn Larsen (BYU student, early returned missionary from Argentina, service missionary) join us to talk about their new and needed podcast called “Returned Stronger”. The podcast (and Jon’s life coaching work) focuses on helping early return missionaries find their way forward on principles based on worth, value, and God’s love for them—and how “God never speaks to someone through shame”. In this episode Brooklyn bravely shares her journey with her mental health and why her mission needed to end to return home to get the necessary care she needed. Brooklyn talks honestly about this difficult road—and what gave her hope including deciding to serve a service mission and start their podcast. Jon talks about his role as her father to love and support her and his clinical expertise to support early return missionaries and their families. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with the “Returning Stronger” podcast (see show notes). This will help you better love and support the missionaries in your life. And if you are planning on serving a mission, their podcast will help you better prepare for your mission. Links: Facebook, TikTok and Instagram: @ReturningStronger Podcast: https://youtube.com/@returningstronger Website: https://returningstronger.com

My friend Kari Bates (mother of six, lives in Elko NV, life coach) and Kimberly Bates (HR professional living in NYC) joins us to talk about their new podcast called “Coffee and Cocoa”. Their podcast focused on how Kari and Kimberly reframed/rebuilt their relationship on five core principles after Kimbery left the Church. They talk about the early years, the mistakes they made, and how they learned and implemented new tools/perspectives to preserve their relationship. And how their relationship is now beyond preserving the relationship but thriving. It is a beautiful family love story. And a story that they felt impressed to share with others through their new awesome podcast. If you are looking for a real-life story and actionable principles of preserving/growing a family relationship where there are differences in religious and/or political beliefs, I encourage you to listen/connect with their podcast. Thank you, Kari and Kimberly, for being on the podcast and your much-needed work in our community to build bridges. You two are awesome! Links: Kari’s Instagram: @karibatesfamilycoach Coffee and Cocoa Podcast: https://www.karibates.com/coffee-cocoa-podcast

My friend Jerry Chong (active LDS, Temple worker, many leadership callings, lives in Calgary Canada, convert, powerful advocate for LGBTQ inclusion) joins us to share his story (was on Episode 41, 8 years ago): Advocacy work with Stake and Ward Leaders across the world (Canada, USA, UK, Brazil, etc) How to approach stake presidents and ward leaders to engage them in LGBTQ Inclusion and Sensitivity training for leaders and members . The email communications and patience that is required for these meetings to come together . What he teaches at these meetings Being a temple worker and explaining his singleness to fellow workers and temple presidencies Creating boundaries with homophobic church members Personal sacrifice and loneliness of being celibate—with no hope of companionship if he wants to remain a member is good standing Series of essays he’s written. E-mail Jerry if you want a copy (see show notes) Being an ally for transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saints . Arranging video conversations to learn about their lived experiences and the impact of church policies Hopes to start dating men. Going slow. Would like to be married and share the last chapters of his life with someone Thank you, Jerry, for being on the podcast. You are one of my heroes—sacrificing so much to be in a position where you can help advocate for better LGBTQ understanding and inclusion. You have blessed so many through your ministry. You are a true disciple of Christ. Honored to have you on the podcast. Please listen and share Jerry’s episode. It will help you be a better ally and will help you if for you are queer Latter-day Saint. Links: Jerry’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jerry.chong.52 Jerry’s IG: @mrjerrychong Jerry’s e-mail: [email protected] Episode 41: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-41-jerry-chong-gay-mormon-convert-calgary-temple-worker Ministering Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Substack on The Family Proclamation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-209436738

My friend Michael Young (active LDS, lives in Florida, Senior Service Missionary) joins us to share his outstanding story navigate being gay for 7+ decades: Part of the gay New York underworld in the 60s—including visiting Stonewall—but deeply closeted Career in health care Helpful therapist to get him through anger and distrust and overcome childhood trauma Believed in God—and upset with God Powerful spiritual experience in small Catholic chapel—sins forgiven and a great weight lifted Getting married to a woman—told her about being gay—good married for 39 years—but ended Along with his wife, joined the Church in 1983 (living in Ohio) after investigating Church for 18 months Navigating President Kimball’s teachings about homosexuality (stuff we don’t teach anymore) Extensive church service (Bishoprics, Temple, etc) Moving to Florida after his divorce Coming out to his Ward (positive experience) Great ward/stake support for LGBTQ members Wearing a pride pin to Church because “shows God loves all his creations” Powerful person revelation that God made him Gay and God loves him—he is not broken and doesn’t need fixing Why he stays in the Church No one should feel shame for who they are At age 82, Michael is our oldest queer podcast guest. He takes us back to an era where being gay was much more difficult (gay bashing, fear of losing job). Yet, his story is so similar to other queer Latter-day Saints in the personal revelation they are receiving and the complexity of their journey. Michael is bright, articulate, super insightful, and has a powerful story. If you are queer or an ally, please listen and share Michael’s powerful podcast—it will help all of us. You are a good man Michael—one of my new heroes. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thanks for all you have done to bless so many during your life. Links: Michael on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michael.young.304565

My friend Tucker Boyle (married father of five, PhD in Leadership Studies, went through a faith crisis/transition) joins us to share his story including: - How his doctoral research into church history led to a faith crisis - The pain of that road (emotional, physical, not belonging) - How the whole process changed him to be more kind, compassionate and supportive of others - Discussion of going from “melody” to “dissonance” to “harmony” - Why he won’t go back—so grateful for his faith transition—so much more equipped to help others - Why he started “Harmony Road Retreats”—a safe place for people in a faith crisis/faith transition/faith journey - Being a safe person as a YSA Bishop, Institute/Seminary teacher and doing much work to help others walking a difficult road - Helping people understand how they can calm their nervous system during times of transition If you are in a faith crisis/transition or want to have more insights to help others, please listen to/share Tucker’s podcast. Links: Instagram: @harmony_road_retreats Harmony Road Retreats website: https://www.harmonyroadretreats.com/ Email: [email protected]

My friend Carlos Toledo (age 28, communications strategist, accomplished businessman, community advocate, son of prominent Brazilian church leaders) joins us to share his remarkable story: Navigating being attracted to men—outed at age 14/15—unique story How therapy (not conversation therapy) helped him Decision to serve a mission—totally out to priesthood leaders Importance of being impowered—step into it—owning your story Moving to Utah and being a LGBTQ community leader Burnout a few years ago—needing to rebuild—super powerful Difference between being queer in Brazil and USA Getting through anger You are a good man, Carlos. Honored to have you on the podcast. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Carlos on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/carlos.toledo.19.98 Carlos on Instagram: @thecarlostoledo

My friend Dr. Seth Bott (PhD in Music Arts and Organ Performance, Director of Music, late 30s, Choir Master and Organist at St. James Episcopal Church, organ instructor, frequent performer in LDS spaces like education week) joins us to share his powerful story: Growing up in Castle Dale, Utah—dream of being a Tabernacle Organist Knowing he was gay—never going to tell anyone—believe just being gay was a sin until an Elder Holland talk Great mission, great experience at BYU (undergraduate and graduate degrees). Dream of being a Tabernacle Organist on track Friends getting married, not able to make it with a girl, desired companionship, finally started to come out Positive coming out experiences with family—including very tender experience with his Dad Dating men, being in an 11-year relationship which ended, his current partner Michael (super good relationship) Finding new dreams—not going to be a Tabernacle Organist Respect for LDS Church and respect for all paths that LGB Latter-day Saints walk Going back to his childhood ward in Castle Dale with his boyfriend for his parents’ homecoming and performing a musical number during the service. Love and acceptance for both of them—a little slice of Zion. Thank you, Seth, for being on the podcast. Respect for all your accomplished in your life with music, teaching and leading with love—like Jesus does. You are a good man and are doing so much to make this world a better place. Links: Seth’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seth.bott.5 Seth’s IG: @sethgbott Church News Article about Seth: https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2024/09/18/organ-virtuoso-series-concert-2024-salt-lake-tabernacle-organ-seth-bott/ Seth's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@sethbottmusic780

My friends Jeremy Kerrigan (gay, on episode 761, chiropractor) and Sara Kerrigan (straight, teacher, mother of 5) joins us to share their story: Why their marriage ended—the right outcome for both of them Why they remain best friends—and why their communication, honesty and vulnerability is even better now How we can better support couples that divorce including more listening, curiosity, and less advice How we can do a better job of not choosing sides in some divorce situations How their values remain the same—even though their beliefs have changed—super powerful perspective Supporting their kids (oldest is on a mission) This is not an episode advocating for divorce. However, this is a reality for some couples. Jeremy and Sara bravely share their story helping us to see what kind of a relationship is possible after divorce in some situations. Their journey is a beautiful love story. Thank you, Jeremy, and Sara, for being on the podcast. Your story is so needed in our community. You two are remarkable people. Links: Jeremy on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drkerrigan Sara on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ctrsara Jeremy on IG: @jeremykerriganaz Sara on IG: ctrsara

My friend Chris Bissett (lives in Raymond, Alberta Canada, married father of 5, serving in Bishopric) joins us to share his story including: Realizing he is gay before his mission—learning how to balance his faith and his sexuality alone and dealing with the shame. Navigating things in the church that were helpful and some other things that were hurtful “Rage praying” and getting an answer “God was OK with me being gay” Coming out to his wife Becky in the first year of their marriage—wanted to be honest and have a relationship on trust While his wife is very supportive, he recognized he didn’t give her a choice, learning that a marriage of love needs to be built on truth (authenticity) and choice. Helpful meeting and getting great advice with Elder Holland early in their marriage Eventually couldn’t keep being gay on the “back burner”—needed to come out more openly Taking away the shame—living with confidence How he moved from seeing being gay as a “sacrifice” to moving toward “consecration” and using being himself as a gay member to build Zion His powerful Wayfare Article called “Light in a Watery Darkness, Finding a Way with Consecrated Identity” (see show notes). Chris shares a super insightful story with unique insights and perspectives—all coming from a place of no-shame, integrity, and confidence. I learned so much from Chris. If you are an LGBTQ Latter-day Saint, Chris’s story will help you. And Chris’s story will help you if you are looking to better understand and support our LGBTQ friends. You are a good man, Chris. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Wayfare article: https://www.wayfaremagazine.org/p/wilt-thou-suffer-that-we-shall-cross Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chrisbissett

My friend Natalie Brown (JD, University of Virginia School of Law; PhD, Columbia University; Latter-day Saint; Salt Lake Tribune guest columnist; and mother of two) joins us to talk about her new book After Happiness: Living with Faith in a Time of Crisis. In the podcast/book Natalie talks about: How gospel messaging became entwined with individualistic formulas for happiness in the late Twentieth Century How some of the formulas the Church associated with the "plan of happiness" are now economically or otherwise out of reach for many members How happiness should not be used as measuring stick of evidence of gospel truth Problems with the “prosperity gospel” How feeling happy is not a choice for many Latter-day Saints—and they shouldn’t feel judged for this or told to just be “more happy” How to find peace and opportunity after failure and unwanted disruption Finding perspective in Nephi’s story on how to move forward in the face of societal collapse Why she stays in the Church How affordability is a major reality for younger Latter-day Saints Natalie is one of the “wisest and most original thinkers” in our community “tackling the profound question of what constitutes the good life.” If you want to find more peace, hope, and acceptance in your life (and become better at helping others), please read Natalie’s book. Links: Natalie’s book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0H64LBW2B Natalie’s website: https://www.nataliebrown.com/ Natalie’s IG: @nataliebrownwriter Launch Event: July 30th, 6 pm-7:30 pm, Compass Gallery, 250 W, Center Street #101, Provo, UT 84601. RSVP here: https://www.thecompassgallery.com/event-details/after-happiness-book-launch-with-natalie-brown

My friend Rich Cope (early 50s, father of four) join us to share his brave, vulnerable, and honest story in hopes of helping others: Growing up in Utah County and not fitting the mold/expectations for a man Great insights about broadening the definition of masculinity Processing his attractions to men in a vacuum—with no outside support/understanding Serving a mission and learning God loves him and will always be with him Trying to make it work with a woman—be told it will all work out Getting married—good marriage—why that marriage eventually ended Being closeted and being a dad to a gay son (who was out, authentic, and accepted himself) Decision to come out to his wife and then more broadly (lots of acceptance) Powerful testimony on how God loves all of His children—gay or straight Advice for younger LGBTQ folks This was another deeply moving podcast from my friend Rich Cope—who is so vulnerable, real, and honest—all attributes of masculinity. This podcast will help you in you are LGBTQ and help the rest of us better love/accept ourselves, know God’s love for us, and how to better love/support our LGBTQ friends. You are a good man, Rich. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: @richcoperealtor

My friend Michael Soto (mid-40s, transitioned 20+ years ago, bridge builder including being invited by the Church to attend two Temple open houses, powerful story) joins us to share: Feeling he is a boy since his earliest memories Feeling hopeless Learning he is transgender—realized there was a path for him—for the first time had hope How much transitioning has helped him in all aspects of his life (emotionally, spiritually, career, etc) Powerful story of how his father accepted and supported him Powerful story of how his mother—caring for Micheal after top surgery—fully accepted him Advice to parents who have a child experiencing gender dysphoria I share some thoughts about: Seeing our transgender friends in the parable of the Good Samaritan Importance of proximity—get to know transgender people from them—not from load/fear-based voices How the comparison to being “car sick” helped me to understand gender dysphoria/need to transition Thank you, Michael, for being on the podcast. You are a good man—one of my heroes. Thanks for all you are doing in our world to improve the lives of LGBTQ. Thanks for your great heart, love for everyone, and your discipleship. Links: Equality Arizona: https://www.equalityarizona.org/ Michael Soto on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michaelscsoto Michael Soto in IG: @michaelsantiagocsoto

My friend Brent Edwards (active LDS, lives in Joplin Missouri, married) joins us to share his story in hopes that is helps other bisexual Latter-day Saints to not feel alone, don’t have shame, and that God loves them. Brent shares: Pre-mission experiences around being attracted to boys Serving a mission (belated confession to his Mission President—great experience) Getting married—30+ years of not feeling bi-sexual How being bi-sexual gradually became something he needed to address—came out to his wife (good experience) and then his church community Learning how to deal with being bi-sexual in a more healthy way How Brent and his wife concluded he needed to tell his story Powerful spiritual experiences—experience that help other queer Latter-day Saints know God loves them Thank you, Brent, for being on the podcast. Your brave and unique story will help others. Thank you for your courage. You are a good man. Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brent.edwards.71066700 Instagram: @brentedwards505 E-mail: [email protected]

My friend Scott Mena (lives in Deltona Florida, mid-30s) joins us to share his amazing story: * Growing up closeted in a world and shame—being gay meant AIDS * Hiding and trying to change * Gaining a testimony * Coming out to his mom and Bishop * Working to solve pornography use * His friend Mickeal * Serving a mission to Denver (positive experience) * Going to Pulse (before the massacre in 2016) * Working through suicidal thoughts * Coming out publicly and getting involved with LGBTQ community (PFLAG, etc) * Living between two worlds (LDS community and LGBTQ community) * Being “Mr. DeLand Pride”, being a drag entertainer, Ward Mission Leader * Help start Volusia Gathering and how it helped his dad * Final testimony Thank you, Scott, for being on the podcast. You story is super powerful and hopeful. You are a great man who was walked a difficult road with courage, faith, and hope. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/scottymena/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/scottmenaactor YouTube Channel info - https://www.youtube.com/@scottythetheaterguy Website - http://www.scottmena.com Extra info - https://linktr.ee/thetheaterguy

My friend Alisha Anderson (graduate degrees in Environmental Humanities and Masters of Fine Arts, Artist, Writer, Adjunct Professor, mid-30s), joins us to share her queer story center around four main themes: Love is easy when it's based on sameness. The true test of love is difference. Time is one of God’s greatest tools. I've come to believe in a God who does not wish to sacrifice me, but grow me. We need each other—in both our suffering and our joy. As part of these themes, Alisha shares unique and powerful insights are deeply moving—and even after 900+ episodes are unique. Insights that I believe will help other queer Latter-day Saints find hope as they bravely move forward—and insights that help allies/parents better support/love our queer friends. Thank you, Alisha, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you! You are so emotional/spiritual/intellectually mature and thoughtful. You are a gift to our community. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Instagram: @_a_anderson Website: alishaanderson.org

My friend and mentor Robert A. Rees (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Rees), age 90, who loved and supported his gay/lesbian members while serving as a singles ward bishop in Los Angeles from 1986-1992, joins us talk about his new book called “Imagining and Reimaging the Restoration”. Bob talks about how Joseph Smith creative mind allowed him to imagine the impossible leading to the first vision and subsequent revelations—and how we should continue to use his example to imagine and reimagine what is possible for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Super powerful imagery. Bob also talks about: Why he is a “Matthew 25 Latter-day Saint and Christian” Why is heart is broken for our LGBTQ friends Why he stays in the Church Bob (along with Carol Lynn Pearson, Greg Prince, William Bradshaw, and others) are some of the earliest and most impactful LGBTQ allies. Their brave work and helped so many of our LGBTQ friends and has given new allies (like me) vision to join their LGBTQ ally discipleship. Thank you, Bob, for all your many contributions over many decades. You are a treasure to our community and beyond. Honored to have you on the podcast. You also give vision of what is possible at age 90! Links: Bob’s new book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/158958824X Bob’s Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Rees

My friend and mentor Kim Puzey (age 75) lives in Oregon, joins us to share his story: * Growing up in a blue-color world * Dad dying at age 12 * Friends dying at age 17 * Surprise decision to serve an LDS mission * 50 years of Church service—but a feeling that he worshipped the Church and callings * Less active, “steeple chaser” looking for the beauty in all faiths * Stroke—going from age 45 to age 75 In some of the most moving segments of any podcast, Kim shares powerful stories of ministering to “the one” including: * Why Walmart is sacred to me * The Chicago L * Importance of names * Waitresses are angels * Workers in the fields I was so moved listening to Kim’s discipleship focused on “the one” with powerful stories of making a difference in people’s lives—the core of our discipleship at followers of Jesus. Thank you Kim of being on the podcast. Thank you for your example to me over these many years. You are a good man. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links : Kim on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kim.b.puzey

This episode is a re-release of Episode 385 with Bob Rees (orginally released in 2019). See Episode 913 for his newest episode. Episode 385: Dr. Bob Rees, Educator, Writer, Disciple, LGBTQ Ally My friend Bob Rees joins us to share principles and insights to bring our families and congregations together. Bob, who holds a PhD and is the Visiting Professor and Director of Mormon Studies at Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley (see his Wikipedia page for more info en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Rees), was a Bishop in a Los Angeles singles ward from 1986-1992 and created a safe place for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Bob has been an LGBTQ ally for four decades with a “long-view” perspective that his helpful, hopeful, and insightful for other Latter-day Saints. Bob is co-author of the “Family Acceptance Project “(article #7 at www.listenlearnandlove.org/articles) an important document to keep Latter-day Saint families with LGBTQ children united, together and strong. Bob shares deeply moving stories of his work with his LGBTQ friends and asks this question when confronted with a situation “what is the most loving thing I can do”?. Bob also talks about Matthew 25 and the doctrine behind this chapter to reach out and love everyone. I encourage everyone to listen to Bob’s podcast—you will be moved and have more principals to help and support others—and better love like our Savior. Thank you Bob for being on the podcast and your six decades of service to bring others to Christ, feel His love, and bring us together as the same human family.

My friend Eric Chaffey (talented organist and director, grew up in Oregon/Northern California, lives in Salt Lake City) joins us to share some of this story including: Realizing his was gay during his teenage years (in the 80s). Incredible supportive dad Being a sexual assault survivor While at the MTC, telling Priesthood Leadership about being sexually assaulted which ended his mission (medical release) and put him in conversion therapy (super painful part of his story) Conversion therapy counselor shifted from conversation therapy to helping his heal from sexual abuse While active in the Church, he is often frustrated and discourage about the lack of support for LGBTQ members Very helpful community in his local ward Eric takes us back into a time we the church and society believe being gay was a choose and when there was no/little support. It’s heartbreaking to hear these stories. Yet with all the headwind Eric has faced, he bravely moves forward with courage and grace. Thank you Eric for being on the podcast. You are good man. Your story will help others. Links: Eric’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/echaffey

Our son Jake Ostler (co-founder International Protection Alliance, master’s degree in social work, certificate in anti-human trafficking, LCSW, working with sexual violence survivors worldwide, expert speaker on this subject) joins us talk about online safety for youth/teenagers/young adults. In this episode (for parents/anyone with responsibility for younger people) Jake talks about: Creating a safe environment in the home with open discussion about online safety/sextortion, and other online threats kids face How the bad guys connect with youth, gain their trust—with the goal of extorting teens for money and nude images How the bad guys isolate the youth for repeated financial gain—often causing the victim to be hopeless and consider suicide Parents and law enforcements roles before and after sextortion occurs This is a powerful episode on a critically important subject. I encourage parents, local religious/civic leaders, and concerned citizens to get more educated on topic by listening to this episode and sharing it with others. You may help save a life. Thank you Jake for your much needed work in our world. Honored to have you on the podcast. Mom and I love you and are proud of you! Links: NCMEC Education for parents and teens: https://www.missingkids.org/theissues/sextortion NCMEC Take it Down: https://takeitdown.ncmec.org/ NCMEC “No Escape Room" Sextortion Experience: https://noescaperoom.org/ International Protection Alliance Web Site: protectall.org International Protection Alliance Venmo: @protect_all Jake’s email to request more information or invite a trainer: [email protected] International Protection Alliance Instagram: @intl.protect.all Facebook: www.facebook.com/ipa.protectall Jake’s Utah Clinical Practice: healingandhopeutah.com Jake’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-ostler-492716116 Jake’s earlier episode (792): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-792-jacob-ostler-lcsw-therapist-founder-international/id1347971725?i=1000677732364

My inspiring friends McArthur Kirishna and Anne Pimentel (authors, BYU grads, advocates for women and others on the margins) join us to talk about the new book (available on Substack—see show notes) which interviews Latter-day Saint women (some famous, some less so) across the world who have great wisdom to help all of us. Each chapter of the book is a post as part of The Women on the Stand Substack. Examples include: Ask the Matriarch: Golden Nuggets Ask the Matriarch: When Life is Hard Ask the Matriarch: Personal Revelation And many others. I believe we need to elevate the voices/vision/insights of women to improve our Church to better create Zion. I continue to learn so much from McArthur and Anne on what I can do to accomplish this goal. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast and check out their Substack. Thank you McArthur and Anne. You two are awesome and give me hope. Links: Ask the Matriarch Substack: womenonthestand.substack.com/ Women Quotes: https://ldswomenproject.com/resources/statements/ www.reliefsocietywomen.com/blog/spiritual-strength/quotes/ www.instagram.com/quotesbychurchofjesuschristwom/ Chieko N. Okazaki October 1995 talk: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1995/10/a-living-network “Changemakers: Women Who Boldly Built Zion” book at Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560855185 Or, it's also available at Deseret Book www.deseretbook.com/product/6085124.html McArthur IG: @mcarthurkrishna_creates McArthur FB: www.facebook.com/mcarthur.mcarthurfreeranger Heavenly Mother Matters IG: @heavenlymothermatters Anne IG: @the.vision.beautiful Anne's IG and Podcast @andyetwebelieve (podcast by the same name)

My friend Hunter Knott (UVU grad in computer science, RM) joins us to share his story growing up and starting to hear stuff about gay people (during his high school years), going on a mission (at the start of COVID, getting reassigned), and then after his mission starting to consider “he might not be straight”. Hunter talks about starting to come to terms with his sexual orientation in 2022 with a powerful journey entrée—the shock he felt—and the answer of comfort. Hunter talks about enrolling in the UVU LGBT Institute class and how helpful/spiritually uplifting it is to connect with other LGBTQ members walking this road. Hunter frames this class as the “restoration of His LGBTQ people”. Hunter talks about coming out to his parents (great experience) and his family—including his parents attending Gather. Hunter also talks about the parallels between black Latter-day Saints before 1978 and the current plight of LGBTQ members—super insightful. Hunter talks about dating women and not being able to make that work—and then dating men including his first kiss and involving his family in his dating. Hunter talks about his current steady boyfriend Will and the love/peace he is finding in his life and hopes for their future together—including feeling “called” to continue to attend church as a same-sex married couple. Thank you Hunter for being on the podcast. You are a bright, articulate, faithful, and brave man—walking a difficult road with integrity, courage, and conviction. You are a good man. You give me hope. I encourage everyone to listen/share Hunter’s podcast. Links: Facebook: facebook.com/hunter.knott.2025 Instagram: @hunter_p_knott/

** Note: This is not a book bashing the Church or a list of reasons to leave. This is a book to help those who have left the Church move forward in a thoughtful and intentional way—preserving relationships along the way—and honoring those who stay in the Church ** My friend Madison Daniels (early 30s, RM, no longer LDS, future therapist) joins us to share his new book, "Letters to a Young Ex-Mormon", to help those reconstruct a thoughtful, intentional life outside of the Church—and an invitation to bring the good of their faith tradition along the way. In doing this, Madison is not dismissing the pain and anger that many who leave the Church feel. Rather, he offers letters on familiar topics showing how to navigate a new world with healthy principles, perspective, healing, and good decision-making. Neither Madison nor I are inviting people to leave the Church—but leaving is a reality for some. If this is your reality or others who you love and want to support, I encourage you to read/share Madison’s book. You are a good man, Madison. Glad to have you on the podcast. I learned a lot from you. You work is needed in our community. Links: Madison’s book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GVGS28KP Instagram Acct: @mddanielsbooks

OsPaZu, a self-taught author from Chile, shares his powerful journey of faith, same-sex attraction, and returning to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after more than 20 years away. In this moving conversation, OsPaZu talks about serving a mission in Argentina, struggling to find his place in the Church, and eventually stepping away for over two decades. Through difficult experiences, personal challenges, and moments of deep spiritual searching, he came to discover that Jesus Christ had never stopped loving him. Today, OsPaZu is an active member of the Church, serves as a Sunday School teacher, and openly shares his experience to help others feel less alone. He emphasizes that every person’s journey is different, but that those who experience same-sex attraction face real challenges and experiences, and that there is hope, belonging, and peace through Jesus Christ. OsPaZu also discusses his books, “Just As I Am, I Returned to Christ” (English) and “Tal Como Soy, Regresé a Cristo” (Spanish), heartfelt memoirs written from personal experience—not as perfect literary works, but as honest stories of faith, struggle, repentance, service, and hope. This is a powerful conversation about vulnerability, discipleship, and discovering that Christ never leaves us, even when we feel far from Him. Links: Book available on Amazon in paperback and Kindle e-book format Instagram: @OsPaZu Email: [email protected]

My friend Blake Muir (age 33, Utah State Grad, Utah State Employee) joins us to share his unique story in creative way—sharing lyrics of songs to frame individual chapters of his story—super powerful and deeply moving. Blake talks about realizing he might be gay in middle school—leading to everything he knew how to do to not be gay. The resulting shame and self-loathing leading to a suicide attempt in high school. Blake talks about finding some hope as the Church was moving to more understanding while preparing for his mission. Blake talks about his mission and then returning home and trying to date women. Blake talks about the complicated road working with Church leaders (some really helpful, some harmful) and ultimately concluding the Church was complicating his relationship with Heavenly Father and seeing his way forward. Blake—who hasn’t 100% closed the door on the Church—talks about learning to “allow God to love me as a queer man” and “didn’t want to lose his queerness”—something he sees as a divine attribute. Blake talks (and thanks) his supportive parents. Thank you Blake for being on the podcast. I was so moved by your story. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Respect. You story will help so many. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode. It will help all of us better support queer people in our lives. Links: Blake’s Instagram: @muir_blake Blake’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/blakw.muir

My friend Jeanette Griggs (mid 40’s, engaged to her future wife, decades of faithful service) joins us to bravely share her story about her long road to understand and accept her sexual orientation. Jeanette writes about this in her new book named: “Be True: From Orthodoxy to Authenticity—The Journey Wasn’t Straight” Jeanette shares about growing up in Idaho where everyone was a Church member and anything said about gay/lesbian people was around the “addiction/heinous” worldview. Jeanette talks about getting new perspective in college but then turning to church teachings/talks/actions with more devotion than ever because of her deep-seated conclusion that she was broken. Jeanette talks about later learning this was religious scrupulosity—and that she is not broken. Jeanette talks about falling in love with a woman and how that relationship became a complicated decade of her life because of the Church Education System, the lack of space for LGBTQ members within the Church, and her efforts to reconcile her lifelong faith with reality. She talks about caring for that woman through a terminal illness and mourning her passing. Jeanette concludes with finding her fiancée and the joy, health of the relationship, and the peace she has in her life now. Jeanette’s book includes journal entries and letters to her younger self—super powerful—as she takes us into the complex/painful/difficult road she walked. Thank you Jeanette’s for writing this book and being on the podcast. You are a good soul. I invite everyone to read/share her book. Jeanette’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GP1V9F8S Jeanett’s Facebook: jeanette.griggs.5 Jeanett’s Instagram @grigjean

My friend Becca Moore—who had a strong testimony—bravely shares the difficult road she faces as a transgender Latter-day Saint. Being transgender and living authentically has been healing and liberating for Becca—the challenge/pain is not being accepted/supported by the Church or her family. Becca (age 61, four children, 9 grandchildren, RM from South Korea Seoul West mission, grew up in Sandy UT, BYU grad, career in banking) shares the negative impact of the Church’s August 2024 transgender restrictions (see https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/08/24/new-lds-church-policies/) causing her to feel unsafe at Church and exposing her and other transgender members to humiliation and abuse. Becca talks about being able to attend Relief Society and how that all changed with the new restrictions and other difficult experiences. It is heartbreaking to hear. We both talk about problems with far-right political ideology that has demonized transgender folks—the same heartbreaking historical pattern repeating itself with gay/lesbian folks, blacks, Native Americans, Jews, etc. We talk about Christ’s teaching and gospel principles that show us how to love and support our transgender friends. We talk about the need as a church/society to live up to Elder Rasband’s invitation to support our transgender friends: “Elder Ronald A. Rasband taught that people who experience transgender feelings need to be encircled in the arms of their Savior and know they are loved. So often the Lord calls on us; He expects us to be His welcoming, loving arms. We need to encourage their friends to do the same” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/transgender/supporting) Thank you Becca for being on the podcast and sharing your honest story. Our lack of support for you is heartbreaking. I hope we can all listen to your story and then consider what we can do in our circle of influence to follow Christ's example to love and support those on the margins like our dear transgender and non-binary friends. You are super brave to share your story. You give me hope.

My friend Sid Bassett (married father of four, retired business executive, licensed clinical mental health councilor) and his wife Stephanie recently returned for being mission leaders of the Hawaii Laie Mission (2022-2025). Sid joins us to talk about his new podcast called “Return Missionary Next Chapters” which shares inspiring, honest stories of life after the mission. Through candid, vulnerable, and deeply human conversations with returned missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the show explores how mission service and cumulative life experiences shape faith, identity, and the direction of both the chapters already lived and those still being written. These are stories for anyone navigating the questions, growth, and hope that come after the name tag comes off. Sid also shares some of his unique life experiences including retiring as a business executive and then—completely out of left field—going back to school and became a clinical health counselor and how that experience helped him as a Mission President with over 650 missionaries. Please check out Sid’s new podcast and share it with others—really powerful episodes covering topics that help all of us. The work Sid is doing is so needed in our community. Thank you my lifelong friend Sid for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help others. Sid’s Podcast: https://rmnextchapters.com/ from here you can follow and link to your favorite podcasting platform. Sid’s IG account: @rmnextchapters Sid’s e-mail: [email protected]

Jenn Zingmark joins us to share her deeply personal journey through divorce, faith, healing, and rebuilding. Jenn is an active Latter-day Saint, wife, mother of five, grandmother of four, certified life coach, podcast host, and founder of Find the Joy with Jenn. Jenn shares her experience of marrying in the temple, becoming a young mother, and eventually facing the heartbreaking reality that her marriage would not survive despite years of effort. She discusses the spiritual wrestle that accompanied her decision to divorce, the personal revelation that guided her through that difficult season, and the challenges of navigating divorce within Latter-day Saint culture. Jenn also shares how she rebuilt her life after divorce, remarried, blended two families together, and discovered that God still had a plan for her future, even when life looked very different from what she had originally envisioned. Today, Jenn helps men and women navigate divorce through coaching, online resources, workshops, and her Faith Filled Divorce program. Drawing from both personal experience and years of coaching others, she shares practical insights and gospel-centered principles for healing, finding peace, rebuilding faith, and moving forward after divorce. Jenn also discusses ways Church members, leaders, family, and friends can better support those experiencing divorce with greater compassion, understanding, and hope. Whether you are personally navigating divorce, considering divorce, supporting a loved one through divorce, or simply seeking to better understand this often misunderstood experience, this conversation offers valuable perspective, encouragement, and hope. For more resources, visit Jenn's website and podcast using the links below. Links: Jenn's Website: https://www.findthejoywithjenn.com/ Find the Joy with Jenn Podcast: https://www.findthejoywithjenn.com/joy-in-the-journey-podcast Faith Filled Divorce: https://www.findthejoywithjenn.com/program-details

** Why would I have an excommunicated gay former Mormon on the podcast? Well, I’ve learned that my excommunicated friends are usually good people—often doing the best they can with complex circumstances—children of the same Heavenly Parents and my spirit brother/sister. I learned a lot from Steven. Steven is not in the space “of burn it all down” and “everyone should leave the church”. He gives grace to me for being in the Church and I’m returning that grace. His story is powerful and helps me consider what I can do to better love and support my LGBTQ friends. When we know better, we do better. ** My friend Steven Mark Trier (age 58, adopted, excommunicated in 1992) joins us to share his story. Steven (a talented pianist, composer, and producer), takes us back to a time when there were few resources and limited understanding for gay Latter-day Saints. Steven talks about being gay and doing all he could to not be gay including service a mission “to be straight” and considering castration. Steven talks about accepting himself as God made me. Steven talks about how hard it was to leave the Mormon church—all the community that he enjoyed—and the chance to share his musical talents. Steven talks about how that was all necessary as he felt he needed to be “in-charge of his own destiny” and be authentic. Steven talks about “why would a God who made me as I am send me to hell for being me” Steven talks about navigating his relationship with a narcissist father and a supportive mother and eventually reuniting with his biological mother. Steven talks about complex mental health challenges and how he now has found stability, peace, and love in his life (including being with his parter for the last 8 years). Thank you Steven for being on the podcast. You are a survivor and a remarkable man. I wish we could have better loved and supported you as a young gay Mormon. I’m sorry for all the needless pain. You are a good man. You story give other hope. Links: Steven’s book: https://aureusmediadesign.com/excommunication/

My friend Amie Steele talks about her powerful new Substack (see show notes) sharing their journey (along with her husband Randy) to love and support their gay son Hunter, his decision to date men, and falling in love with Jake, and their wedding in 2025. Amie talks about walking this road with Hunter and her personal revelation to love and support Hunter and Jake. She talks about the beauty of their marriage and “by the fruits you shall know them”—and how this outcome brings them and the Steele family joy, peace, and love. Amie talks about her work as a high school special education teacher and the need for “Individual Education Plan” for her students—and how the Church’s one-size-fits-all approach to marriage doesn’t have a plan/place for our gay/lesbian members (unless they feel called to be celibate or in a mixed-orientation marriage)—and is super painful for their family. She also talks about how she “can’t put this on a shelf” and wait for more understanding—as Hunter needed to get on with his life—and their family needed to love/support him. Amie then talks about her son Presley who is gay and their conversation leading up to the podcast giving Amie permission to share about Presley. She talks about how much easier it is to accept that Presley is gay and know how to love and support him because of the road she has walked with Hunter. This podcast and Amie’s Substack are super powerful. If you want to learn how to better love/support the queer people in your lives (or may come into your lives), please read/share Amie’s Substack and this podcast. Thank you Amie for being on the podcast. You and Randy have a beautiful family. Your two gay sons Hunter and Presley are good men with a wonderful future. Thanks for all you are doing to help us building Zion. Links: Substack: https://amiesteele.substack.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amie.j.steele Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amie_steele_/ Episode 626: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-626-hunter-steele-gay-byu-student-and-amie-steele-supportive-lds-mother

My friend Greg Prince (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks about the future—and what might be possible for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Greg talks about the process for other significant changes in our church and also shares thoughts on doctrine vs policy vs teachings. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB

My friends, Jeff McLean (same-sex marriage, nationally known performer, vocal coach, author), Michael McLean (famous LDS songwriter, composer, playwright) and Jeff’s friend Dr. Brad Reedy (Co-Founder and Chief Clinical Officer) join us to talk about their new book: “Stay in the Room: How a Gay Son and A Mormon Father Found Themselves and Each Other” In the podcast, they talk about how “Stay in the Room” tells the true story of a boy raised in Heber City, Utah, in the shadow of Mormonism and the rising AIDS crisis of the 1980s. The son of Michael McLean-Mormonism's answer to Billy Joel, Jeff sang his father's songs on stages nationwide. But behind the curtain, he struggled to reconcile his faith with his identity. After serving a Mormon mission, entering a brief marriage to his husband, and battling an addiction to crystal meth, Jeff finally found solid ground-and the courage to come home. But before healing could begin, he had to confront the two people he feared had lost him for good: his parents. Told through three voices, “Stay in the Room” is a moving, multi-perspective memoir. Jeff shares how he discovered a life where he could be fully himself and still feel the love of God. Michael recounts how the Spirit led him to stay present through his son's pain, refusing to let go. And therapist Dr. Brad Reedy offers powerful insight for families navigating the tension between faith, identity, and unconditional love. This is one of the best episodes we’ve ever recorded.. Please listen and share this episode and buy their book. Great insights on how to love and support people we love in our lives. Thank you Jeff, Michael, and Brad for being on the podcast. Links: Stay in the Room Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1969935057

My friend Kelsey Well (who was on Episode 815) joins us to update her story. Kelsey (former EFY counselor and seminary teacher, active Latter-day Saint)—who broke off an engagement to a man realizing it wasn’t right which she talked about in her prior episode—talks about falling in love with Christina and their upcoming marriage. Kelsey also shares their desire to remain active members of their ward. In this episode Kelsey talks about: Her relationship with God and the Church What her relationship with her fiancé has shaped the way she sees faith, love, and her future. Navigating the pressure she sometimes feels from either side to “pick a line”—either leave the Church or deny part of herself How being an active LGBTQ Latter-day Saint looks like. What she wishes church members better understood about LGBTQ people who choose to stay active in the Church. What she says to someone who feels they have to choose between being loved by God and being fully themselves. Kelsey talks about how they plan to stay connect to the Temple that they love. Once married—and no longer having recommends—they talk about to being in the temple waiting room and doing family history. Thank you Kelsey for your courage to move forward in the path that you feel is right for you. I honor your personal revelation, will walk with you, and leave judgement to our Savior as His perfect understanding. I hope and pray you and Christina are warmly received in your ward—and you feel a deep sense of belonging as you worship. Links: Instagram: @kelswayan Episode 815: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-815-kelsey-wells-mid-20s-child-of-god-gay/id1347971725?i=1000698209691 Email: [email protected]

In one of our bravest, raw, and most vulnerable episodes, my friend Rod Gardner (married father of 5, lives in Northern Utah, dentist, age 60) shares his story/new book called “Second Change Again: A Dentist’s Journey from Professional Success to Prison, Addiction, and Ultimate Redemption”. Rod shares how drugs became a coping mechanism to deal/escape with the anxiety/scrupulosity he experiences as a teenager. He talks about putting this all behind him for his mission and the first part of his marriage—and then how the cycle came back to escape/deal with the stress of dental school. Rod talks about how that cycle repeated itself—getting worse and worse—until almost all hope was lost. Rod talks about kneeling in prayer in the 5-person jail cell—at the end of his rope—and how that was the beginning of hope/peace which led to sustained recovery (back with his wife Jill, family, regained his dental license and practice, rebaptized). I will never forget Rod talking about praying in the jail cell (and the inmates that ended up joining him). Rod concludes the podcast talking about his love and support for his queer son Kaden and his partner—the first time they came to the home—and his how his heart was full of love, a big hug, and support for both of them. Rod talks about his mighty change of heart from his earlier years to where is his now to love all of God’s children. Super powerful podcast. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and read Rod’s book. If you are in a tough spot—feeling alone and losing hope—please listen and share Rod’s podcast/book. Thank you Rod for your courage to share your story. You give all of us more hope and help us better understand God’s love for each of us. You are a good man. Links: Rod’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rod.gardner.509 Rod’s IG: @ rodneyg21 Rod’s E-mail: [email protected]

My friend Wilson Privado (BYU Master’s Degree in school psychology, BYU-Idaho undergrad, RM Salt Lake City Mission, Queer, Age 29) joins us to share his story. Wilson talks about pushing down his same-sex attraction before his mission, during his mission and after his mission—and trying to make it work with a girl. Wilson eventually concluded—as he couldn’t make it work with a woman—“no happy ending for me” with led to sadness and depression. Wilson talks about a powerful experience in the Temple seeing a rainbow on his hand—and the personal revelation that his Heavenly Parents love him including his queer identity—and how that brought him so much peace and removed shame. Wilson then talks about “teach me with I need to know about myself” and how having “the test isn’t having same-sex attraction, but will you stay with the Savior”. Wilson talks about the UVU LGBTQ Institute class and associated activities (around 100) and how helpful that is to Wilson to feel belonging, support, and staying close to Jesus. Wilson concludes with a personal message to closeted LGBTQ youth. Thank you Wilson for being on the podcast. You are a good man—with many gifts to life and help others. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Links: Instagram @wilsonprvado

My friend Greg Prince (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks the legal efforts of the Church to stop same-sex marriage starting in Hawaii (1990), Proposition 22 (2000) and Proposition 8 (2008) in California, and other efforts—and the “Unintended Consequences” along the way. Greg takes us behind the screens to understand the Church role in and arguments against same-sex marriage—arguments that end up not being empirically defendable. Stung and surprised by the backlash against the Church for its role in Proposition 8, Greg shares the stories of reconciliation between both groups—and how that led to the Church’s support for LGBTQ+ non-discrimination protections in Utah regarding housing and employment (SB296 in 2015). Greg talks about the Church support in 2023 for the Respect for Marriage Act—sending a General Authority Seventy for the signing of the bill at the White House. I believe it is important to understand the church’s efforts against same sex marriage—and its ultimate support 32 years later for the Respect for Marriage Act. It helps me understand the needless pain for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families largely driven by the culture and fearmongering of the day—and to also open our hearts and minds to future efforts to better support them. It also causes me to consider targeted groups today—like our LDS transgender friends—and not wanting to fall in the same pattern. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB Church’s support for Respect for Marriage Act: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2022/12/13/23508214/church-releases-statement-amended-u-s-respect-for-marriage-act-signing/