Talk About Talk - Communication Skills Training

Here's a summary of the podcast script: Episode 1: Academic Writing Fundamentals *Introduction* - Host introduction: Mickley - Topic introduction: Academic writing fundamentals - Learning outcomes *Main Content* 1. *Definition and Purpose*: Academic writing defined, its importance, and purposes. 2. *Functions*: Developing language skills, organizing information, critical thinking, and knowledge development. 3. *Characteristics*: Purpose, exposition, description, narration, tone, structure, and language. 4. *Introduction, Paragraphing, and Transitions*: Well-structured introduction, paragraphing, and transitions. 5. *Main Body and Conclusion*: Presenting evidence, supporting arguments, and concluding. 6. *Harvard System of Referencing*: Citing sources and listing references. *Conclusion* - Recap of key points - Call to action: Leave comments, send emails, or tune in to the next episode.

  There are infinite ways that we can reinforce our professional identity or personal brand. Here are 5 of the most direct and specific ways that you can reinforce your professional identity starting right now. Let’s start with the most direct: (1) your self introduction. There’s also (2) speaking up in meetings, (3) demonstrating thought leadership, (4) mentoring, teaching, and learning, and (5) being active and visible.      CONNECT WITH ANDREA & TALK ABOUT TALK LinkedIn:  Andrea –  https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk about Talk – https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/   TRANSCRIPT This episode is going to be a little different from most of the other Talk about Talk podcast episodes that you may have heard. The topic of today’s episode was inspired by a question that I received at a Q&A question and answer period that I held just earlier this week. This Q&A was hosted on LinkedIn Live and the topic was establishing your professional identity and your personal brand. Some of my favorite topics right? Let me tell you what this particular question was. The question from one of the viewers was. Andrea. How do I broadcast my brand? Pretty simple question, right? I had an answer immediately and this answer is the truth. It’s my truth and it’s this. I am obsessed. Listing categorizing infinite number. Broadcast. We’re communicating directly through our words and interacting. We’re also communicating constantly online and in person. The number of ways that we broadcast. Looking for something? And that’s when I decided to listen to the podcast episode today. Podcast episode, I’m going to answer the question. I’m gonna share with you 5 specific and significant ways you can reinforce your personal brand or your professional, starting right now. Are you ready?  Welcome to Talk about Talk Podcast Episode #156 Five ways to reinforce your Professional identity. In case we haven’t met, my name is Doctor Andrea. Wojnicki please just call me. I’m your executive communication. I coach and business executives like you to improve their communication skills so you can communicate with confidence and clarity. Credibility. And then you can create impact, ultimately achieving your career goals. Sound good? If you want to learn more, check out talk about talk.com. I’ve got lots and lots of resources for you there. I’ve got one-on-one coaching. There’s boot camps, information about corporate workshops. Archive of this bi weekly podcast and when you’re there, I really hope to sign up for my Body weekly newsletter. There is an archive of this biweekly podcast, and while you’re at talkabouttalk.com, I really hope you’ll sign up for my e-mail newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get free communication program from me. Sound good?  Alright, let’s get into this. Here’s how this episode is going to go. Then I mean a lot on my original answer to this question of how do we broadcast our brand And then I’m going to share with you 5 specific. And significant ways that you can reinforce your personal brand. So we’re going to get a little more actionable here.  Alright, first defining a personal brand. If you’ve been following the Talk About Talk podcast or receiving the newsletter. You might be familiar with this, but I’m going to say it again. Your personal brand is your identity or your reputation. You can almost use those as synonyms. Fantastic definition of your personal brand that I like to use. It’s more like a mental exercise, he says. Your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. Now, of course you have a brand when you are in the room. This is more, as I said, like a mental exercise. So imagine some important stakeholders. Maybe your boss and bosses boss, or if you’re in entrepreneur, maybe it’s an investor or collaborator is talking about you. Your name comes up in conversation when you’re not in the room. What are those people thinking and saying about you? That is your personal brand and your professional identity. We can do things to strategically optimize what it is.    So my definition. Yourself. There’s really two elements of this right It’s being yourself. So you’re always authentic and true to ourselves. We’re not inventing something and we’re certainly not being dishonest. It is authentic and true. We are being ourselves. The second part of this definition is that we’re doing this on purpose. We are offering no apologies for the fact that we’re being strategic and disciplined about controlling our narrative and making sure that we are presenting our ideal or optimized personal brand.    So what’s the difference between a personal brand and a professional identity? I just want to clarify this a little bit. So. In the work that I do with executives, I use these two words synonymously. Personal brand is your reputation or identity, and it includes your whole self. On the other hand, your professional identity is also your whole self. But look through the lens. Of your career or your profession, or what you do for a living. So you may prioritize some of your more professional endeavors and activities and accomplishments ahead of more personal things, but those are still part of alright as I said before it is your whole self.    So we’ve got that out of the way. We have defined personal brand.    When I’m coaching folks on establishing their personal brand, we have a process that we follow 2 main steps. Step one. Instep T is communicating. So I always say that what may differentiate the way I post personal branding versus other personal branding coaches is I focused way way more on step one. I’ve seen countless, countless examples consistently of where executives are focusing on establishing the unique identity. And before you skip to the second step of communicating your brand, it’s really important that we nail that. So we typically spend about 75% of our time, give or take, on the step. One which is creating or articulating your brand  then we move over into Step 2 which is communicating your personal brand. This by the way. Was the question that I received in the Q&A session where the gentleman said, Andrea. How do we broadcast our personal brand? This was. Step two of the process. This is the communication step. My answer, as I said earlier in this episode, was that there are infinite, yes infinite ways that we communicate our personal brand. I’ve become sort of obsessed over the last several years in creating this list and making it as complete as I can. For the purpose of the workshops that I do and the coaching of executives that I do, I’ve put this list into a two by two. So it’s like a two by two matrix like they do in consulting, where on one dimension of the matrix We’re looking at considering the direct versus the indirect or implicit ways that we communicate. So let me just define what I mean by that. The direct ways that we communicate our brand are through words, right? You are explicitly using words, whether it’s verbal or written, to share your strengths. Your expertise, your superpowers, and so on. So that’s direct. And then indirectly also communicating your personal brand through things like. Background. How you dress, your hair, your tone of voice, your punctuality, These are all signals that other people are interpreting about you to identify what your personal brand is. Sometimes. Do all of all out there trying to identify and decipher what other people are all about. So we’re looking for signals to force the judgment. You gotta do all of this so we’ve got the direct versus. I’m making that that’s a different colour in person and online. So when we’re in person, we can see. The person’s body is body language and so on, and there are many things that crossover those. But you can think of start cooking until you got all of it ready to go, thinking about and maybe even brainstorming different ways that you can or as this gentleman said. Broadcast our personal brand, again, Direct. Lettuce if you want, but online and in person. So that was the answer that I gave this general in the Q&A.  A little bit about not providing him with a real. Different ways. While I’m prepping this episode, I had to cook, no. Once I have professional identity. Eat chicken. Hundreds and hundreds, maybe thousands of executives on how to establish your personal brand. These are the ones that seem to get a lot of traction. I’m going to read them first and then I’m going to elaborate on them.    So the first one is you rself introduction, the second one is speaking up in meetings and how you do that the third one is demonstrating thught leadership. The 4th one is mentoring, teaching and learning, and the last one is being active and visible. Elaborate now on each of those four things.  1. YOUR SELF INTRODUCTION Yourself Introduction And I think I did actually say this at the LinkedIn Live earlier this week. Yourself introduction is unquestionably the most direct way for you to reinforce your personal brand. Let me say that again yourself. Introduction is the most direct way for you to reinforce your personal brand or your professional identity. Why is this? Well. Very often yourself introduction is the first impression, and we know that first impressions are very important impressions, right? So there’s that, there’s the significance of it. It’s also coming from you. So it’s highly credible and it’s true words which are direct words the issues. So how could any other format of communicating any other media, any other broadcast media? Anymore direct than your very own self introduction.    I can guess what some of you were thinking. I was already introductions. Now I’m really, really nervous about myself. Introductions. The number one talk about talk podcast episodes of all time in terms of downloads is episode #86, Simple framework to introduce yourself. I’m going to teach it to right now. They quickly if you’ve already heard it, this is just a review and I want you to still follow along. So the three steps for you. Introduce yourself with confidence that you can customize for any context. Is this present? Past, future? Present, past, future. It is not chronological. Let me quickly take you through what this what this framework is step #1. Present tense. Hi, my name is Doctor Andrea Wojnicki and I’m an Executive communication I hope. This. Positive future oil, ideally related to the person that you’re meeting. So you could say, I’m really looking forward to this kickoff meeting. I know we’re gonna rock this project or and now I’d really like to learn more about you or say write a networking event at a conference. I’m really looking forward to getting to know people including all of this. Yourself Introduction. As I said. Most direct way that you have to win four Super. Present past that. It’s not last. Sharing your autobiography or biography not starting from when you were born. Start with the present. Go back. Establish credit. Steps.  in the present. Step one for present tense. So sometimes when I’m introducing myself, I’ll say. Audience. Even with. So we’re going to move on. Number one, most direct an important way to enforce the personal brand. Self introduction. If you haven’t already listened to episode #86 and talk about talk podcasts, I encourage you to do so. And as you listen to it, ask yourself what would I say about myself into these three steps that’s gonna help me reinforce my professional identity? Alright, moving on in our list.  2. HOW YOU SPEAK UP IN MEETINGS 2nd way to reinforce your professional idea. Earlier today. Smart, young manager and he said that he sometimes feels a little bit tongue tide in meetings. He said. I generally in very well prepared, but sometimes inevitably things come up in the meetings that I haven’t prepared for and I feel like I don’t know what to say. And I said to him, listen. Your personal brand. Look at before you go into the meeting and then for every feeling not sure what to say. On the experience. And this is this is my. When it comes to meetings and reinforcing the personal brand, there are several. Almost like starting your comments in meetings, for example, you could say. Based on my background in statistic marketing, I have a suggestion, right? So what you’re doing is you’re anchoring your comments, in your legitimate authentic background. Your expertise. Which reminds me of the second queue, which is. Expertise in. So as an academic, I can say based on my expertise in marketing or based on my expertise in consumer behavior, whatever or you could say based on my experience, but this is a great one, you could say based on my experience in the project that we did last quarter or based on my recent experience with a similar client, right? And suddenly people are leaning in ’cause it’s almost like an objective way. It’s almost like an objective way of identifying. Reinforcing your categorizing or you’re labeling what your own expertise is to everybody else in the room. I hope that makes sense. My point is this. You don’t have to answer every question that comes up. When you’re speaking up in meetings with a definitive answer, you can narrow your answer in terms of the context of your personal brand or your professional identity. So if you’ve taken the time to articulate and create, establish your personal brand. No, in your mind. When you’re speaking up in meetings. People again, by saying based on my background, based on my expertise or based on my experience, I know it works. I’ve done it myself and I’ve coached many, many people have done so successfully. Alright, so we are onto number that we’ve covered self introduction and we covered reinforcing your professional identity by speaking up in meetings,    3. DEMONSTRATING THOUGHT LEADERSHIP the third one is demonstrated thought leadership. So. Once you’ve taken the time to identify and articulate. The elements Various themes of your personal brand, including your expertise. It’s time to establish thought leadership in a recent podcast episode I Interviewed. Roger Martin, my past boss at the University of Toronto, very succinctly highlighted that there’s a difference between private and public thought leadership, and I think this is this is important to note here. You don’t necessarily need to become a public thought leader, although you may want to. And I encourage you to do so. But you definitely, if you are a leader, needs to at least be a private thought leader. Private Being internal to your firm, people need to know what your expertise is. And I’m not just talking about being the CEO at all levels of leadership. We should have a stake in the ground in terms of what our thought leadership is really, really important. So how do we do so? well? Actually my previous suggestion of reinforcing your personal brand by how you speak up in meetings literally. Define what your comment is in terms of establishing the thought leadership, right. You’re saying my expertise based on my expertise, based on my experience. That’s you identifying font leadership is. So it could be just speaking up in meetings. It also could be writing papers. You can post things on LinkedIn you can. share articles, you can podcast, you can public speaking you can get a panel right. Just think about the multiple media that you have to share thought leadership. And I have a little secret for you here that never crossed my mind until maybe a couple years ago. And that is the people that. Are also not afraid to share other people’s thoughts. Other words, it’s not just writing and thinking it came from you, but also secondly, I notice that one thought leader that I admire very much, Adam Grant, does this a lot. Yes, on to his podcast. And he also recommends groups by people that you might think are direct or at least in direct. Competitors of his is so focused on establishing thought leadership and sharing his insights with others, he welcomes it. So here’s Leadership. It’s not just your own thought leadership. You can also share other people’s thought leadership. How exactly do this? You’re probably wondering. Here’s an easy one on LinkedIn. If you find a post written by someone else or maybe an article. Share it to your community or network on social media and say here’s a great article about like I do this here’s a great article about personal branding. They list 7 things. I would add an eighth right? So you’re further reinforcing your own expertise by elaborating on what the other person said and maybe. But you’re also encouraging other people to read it and you’re establishing the fact you are the go to person in that area. Alright, so I hope that’s clear covered three different ways to reinforce your professional identity. And sharing others. Broadcast.    4. MENTORING, TEACHING & LEARNING   Your professional identity is mentoring, teaching, and learning. So. Yeah. Go to shower head. And mentoring is a very, very.  So if there is an element of your professional identity or your expertise that you think you could teach others, I encourage you to do so. This will just reinforce what your professional identity is. Let me share with you. Putting a senior partner at a global firm right now and we’ve been working on developing her personal brand. Personal brand. Right. Both culturally and individually, she’s a fantastic mentor and she’s definitely shaping the culture of the organization. So I’ve encouraged her, consistent with this 4th way of reinforcing your professional identity, to also teach other people to do the same, right? So the junior partners and the managers that are reporting to her, who also have direct reports she’s coaching them on how they can become people leaders. See how it works. Take the expertise wanna be known for and coach other people to do that and other people will see you as an expert in that domain.    5. BE ACTIVE & VISIBLE OK, on to the 5th way to reinforce your professional identity. It’s this. Be active and visible. Find what your personal. Jeff Bezos definition brand could be seen as what other noise, but it would make sense to cook all of the same thing at the same time. They might not think anything and then the person that has been around. Or is going to benefit from the right? What does this mean? Well, this is a strong argument for going into the office or meeting people for coffee, meeting people for lunches, right? Going to events. Yes, you default whenever you’re invited to a conference or meal or meeting or an event. Yesterday fault, of course, you’re not going to be able to do it all, but you want to be visible and you want to be active. And this is really important both online and offline. So honestly, I could create another infinite list from here. But made yesterday fault. All the people that you work with whenever you can. Through networking events, through social media, Right through conferences make you. Be visible.  Alright. That’s it. That’s everything for this podcast. Episode #156. Let me review with you again here quickly the five ways to reinforce your professional identity. The challenge that I have for you is to identify which one or two of these you’re going to take action on right now so that you can improve your professional identity. Here they are again  #1 your self Introduction. Remember the Framework: Present, Past, Future. And remember to integrate your professional identity in terms of those three steps.  #2 is speaking up in meetings. The 3 prompts that I suggest for you are: “Bsd on my background,” “Based on my experience,” and “Based on my expertise…” The 3rd way to reinforce your professional identity. Is demonstrating thought leadership in meetings, formally and informally, in person and online, publicly and privately  The 4th way to reinforce your professional identity is mentoring, teaching, and learning. If you are a mentor and a teacher, you’re going to be seen as an expert and you need to continuously learn about your area of expertise.  The fifth and last way to reinforce your professional identity is to be active and visible. Make your default, yes, whenever you’re invited to lunch. To a conference, to a networking event and get out there online and in person, on social media, across whatever media it is. Just say yes, be active  and visible.    Alright, that’s it for this episode. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you will refer it to one of your friends, and I also hope you’ll need a review on Apple or Spotify or YouTube or wherever.    Thank you so much for listening. Talk soon.   The post 5 Ways to Reinforce Your PROFESSIONAL IDENTITY (ep.156) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Gratitude is a communication skill that can build loyalty, serves as a catalyst to connect, and it releases endorphins! Andrea interviews The Currency of Gratitude author Michele Bailey, who shares insights on how to express gratitude in a professional context, how gratitude relates to brand ambassadors, how gratitude relates to reciprocity, whether expressing gratitude makes you sound weak, and some provocative thoughts about work-life balance.   RESOURCES BOOK: The Currency Of Gratitude: Turning Small Gestures Into Powerful Business Results by Michele Bailey – https://amzn.to/434Vqpe Michele Bailey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-bailey-a111b6a/ Michele’s agency is BLAZING: https://blazing.agency/ Recommended podcasts: Tim Ferriss – https://tim.blog/podcast/ Smartless – https://www.smartless.com/ Happier – https://gretchenrubin.com/podcasts/ On Purpose – https://www.jayshetty.me/podcast Huberman Lab – https://www.hubermanlab.com/podcast Voices of leadership – https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/voices-of-leadership-insights-and-inspirations/id1710435149 CONNECT WITH ANDREA & TALK ABOUT TALK LinkedIn:  Andrea –  https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk about Talk – https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/ TRANSCRIPT I have a question for you. What are you grateful for? Who are you grateful for? How often do you explicitly express your gratitude? I mean beyond a simple THANK YOU. Welcome to Talk About Talk Podcast Episode #155, where we focus on the power of gratitude. My guest for this episode is an expert on Gratitude. In fact, she literally wrote the book entitled, The Currency of Gratitude. Her name is Michele Bailey. I can’t wait for you to meet her.  You’re going to learn about the benefits of gratitude, how exactly you can express gratitude in a professional or work context. How gratitude relates to brand ambassadors. And how to think about gratitude and reciprocity. And lots more. Including whether expressing gratitude makes you sound weak, and some provocative thoughts about work life balance.  Are you ready?  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast episode number 155, The Power of Gratitude In case we haven’t met, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Please call me Andrea! I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives like you – to elevate your communication, your confidence and your clarity, so you can establish credibility and then accomplish your career goals. If you go to the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about one-on-one coaching, online courses, some amazing bootcamps that I run every few months, corporate workshops, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get free communication coaching from me every week.  Alright let’s get into this. You’re about to hear my interview with Michele Bailey on the Currency of Gratitude.  Michele provides a pretty compelling argument for why we should all be communicating gratitude a lot more. And this woman walks her talk.  She is on a mission to thank everyone around her – in a meaningful way, of course, and also to encourage us to do the same. And yes, she literally wrote the book on Gratitude. It’s called “The Currency of Gratitude”. You can find the link in the shownotes. Here’s how this episode is going to go. 1st, I’m going to briefly introduce Michele and then we’re going to get right into the interview. And then at the end, I’m going to summarize with three, yes, of course, ALWAYS! three of the main thoughts or themes that I want to reinforce for us. Alright, let me introduce Michele. Michele Bailey is founder of The Blazing Group, a brand and culture agency that leverages her strategy-first approach to business, her flair for sharing stories, and her desire to enhance employee wellness while pursuing business goals. Her advertising agency, Blazing, is turning branding inside out with “My Big Idea®,” (YES she trademarked that phrase: “My Big Idea”), which is an employee mentoring and wellness program designed to propel personal and professional success.  In short, Michele and her team have found the formula for creating awesome business cultures that drive exceptional marketing. Countless companies have discovered greater team cohesion and boosted their bottom-line results as a direct result of Michele’s proprietary process.  Today though, she is pushes her clients and others to take it one step further; to make true gratitude integral to the way business is done. As I said, Michele literally wrote the book on Gratitude.  It’s called “The Currency of gratitude.”  It’s published by ForbesBooks, and it’s a great read. You can find a link to the book at the top of the shownotes, under the episode description. Alright let’s hear from Michele. Andrea: Thank you so much, Michele, for being here today to talk with us about the power of gratitude.  Michele: Andrea, I’m so grateful and appreciative to be with you today.  Andrea: Great answer. My first question for you is, can you list for us what some of the benefits of gratitude are, either that you’ve experienced, witnessed, or maybe that you’ve read about? Michele: I’m so grateful and appreciative to be with you today. First of all, it’s an endorphin release. It’s a positive release of endorphins that happen within your brain in your body. And to start your day with gratitude automatically brings joy, calmness, and you will find yourself smiling without even being conscious of it. Because you are giving a positive affirmation, acknowledgement, or appreciation to someone else. It lifts you up without you realizing that you’re being lifted. Andrea: Right, right. So, as you were answering that, something occurred to me. I remember years ago, reading some research that said, if daily you write down one to three things that you’re grateful for, research shows that your life satisfaction will improve significantly. And I started doing this. But what I hear from you is expressing gratitude to people, right? Michele: Exactly, Andrea. I talked about writing down the three things you’re grateful for every day, and I don’t want to take anything away from that. But if that brings you a lot of joy, can you imagine what happens when you take that and you send it out to someone else? It magnifies it threefold, fivefold, tenfold. So, I’m on a mission to teach people how easy it is to push gratitude outside of yourself. It has a multiplier effect that’s not just about you. Andrea: I love that answer. I think it’s absolutely true. As you were saying it, I was thinking, if you express gratitude to one person, it’s not that you’re just doubling it, right? You are creating a multiplier effect. So, in a professional context, what are some specific ways that you express gratitude or that you encourage your clients to do the same? Michele: Well, I actually have a methodology of seven questions that you answer. If you answer these questions openly and honestly, watch the transformation that happens in your relationships, both professionally and personally. The questions guide you through expressing gratitude in a structured way, making it clear to the other person how they have helped you and why you are acknowledging them. It’s magical. Andrea: Wow, that is a magical framework. Can you maybe give us a couple of examples of when people using that framework, so you could say you’re thanking a client or you’re thanking an employee? How might it sound? Michele: With a client, for example, I’ll talk about a gentleman who owns a construction company. I wrote him a gratitude card answering those questions because he taught me a lot by being so hard and tough. His wife came up to me at an event and said that note is framed in his office. It reminds him of the difference he made in some young entrepreneur’s life. Andrea: Amazing. Speaking of making a difference, gratitude is also a currency. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Michele: Absolutely, Andrea. Gratitude, like currency, needs to be put into circulation to have value. If you hoard it, it diminishes. But if you spend it, give it away, it comes back to you with a mega return. It’s about making sure you are putting it out wherever you feel you should because it does come back to you in the most unexpected ways. Andrea: That’s fascinating. You’re making me think about a bunch of things. Now, speaking of time, you made a comment in the book about work-life balance. You have a different take on that, and I found it to be very provocative. Can you elaborate on your advice for managing work-life balance? Michele: I’ve been asked many times about work-life balance, and I say there’s no balance, there’s a blend. There’s an integration. Decide and put aside time to refuel you first. Making sure you’ve got what it takes so you can then turn around and help other people. Plan things out, so you also have carrots to look forward to. It’s about identifying priorities and making rules for yourself. Andrea: That’s a great insight. Before we move on to the rapid-fire questions, is there anything else you want to add about gratitude and the currency of gratitude? Michele: In under five minutes, you can change a relationship with someone in your professional or personal life. It takes less than five minutes. Don’t overthink it. Just do it. Just write it, just call them, just email. Under five minutes, and watch what happens. … Andrea: Amazing, thank you so much, Michele. I am very grateful for the time and the incredible insights that you shared with me and the listeners. Thank you. Isn’t Michele great? Thanks again, Michele, for your time and for sharing your insights about gratitude. Now, as promised, three things I want to point out, that I hope you’ll remember ,about this episode Their first point is the benefits of gratitude. What’s the upside of sending thank you notes and expressing your gratitude? Well, Michele. In this conversation, Michele identified 3 different benefits to gratitude. She started by talking about the endorphin release that we experience when we express gratitude. And we, when we express gratitude to others, they in turn also benefit from endorphin release. It’s contagious. And that’s a big benefit. The second benefit of expressing gratitude is that it builds loyalty. Think of the stories Michele shared about client referrals, brand ambassadors, and tokens of gratitude. This all builds loyalty. The third benefit of gratitude. That we discussed is that gratitude can be a catalyst. For connecting with others. Think about that person. That you regret. Not staying connected with. Chances are you are grateful to them for some reason. Reaching out. With a simple thank you can be a catalyst to reconnect. With that person. New line new line so the three benefits of gratitude are endorphins, loyalty. And the fact that gratitude can serve as a catalyst for reconnecting with someone. The second point I want to reinforce is. Michele’s point? About the significance of. Brand ambassadors when it comes to grant to. Gratitude. About the individuals in your network, maybe they have provided you with client referrals, Perhaps they have mentored you, Or perhaps they’ve acted as a sponsored to help you accelerate your career trajectory. These are your personal brand ambassadors. As you’re strategically thinking about your career, If you haven’t done so already, make a list of who your important brand ambassadors are and make sure they understand how grateful you are. The third and last point that I want to reinforce is a Call to action. Yes, this is your homework. I challenge you. To leverage the currency of gratitude by explicitly directly thanking 3 people in your network, yes, the power of three. It may be one or two clients. One or two coworkers. One or two mentors. You probably know who these people are. Then. Customize a thank you for them. Customize the medium through which you communicate it. It could be through e-mail, it could be over the phone, it could be face to face, maybe take them out for lunch. Or you could do as Michele does and right. A formal thank you card. If you’re looking from process for what to say to this person, here’s list of seven prompts from Michele’s book that she also mentions in the interview.  One word that describes you is.  You came into my life when You bring me joy by  You contribute to my life by.  you are special to me because.  you have helped me by. And  . I want to thank you for.  You can choose from any of these seven prompts or customize one that’s appropriate. And of course if you want to reference these. Prompts. There in the transcript. Of the show notes. On the Talk about talk.com website. That’s it for this episode. I want to say thank you again to Michele. Michele. I am very grateful for you sharing your insights. I’m feeling about gratitude. I’m feeling very inspired. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast episode, I hope you’ll share it with your friends and generously leave me a review on whatever podcast app you’re using. It really makes a difference and I appreciate it. If you want to connect, I’d love to hear from you. You connect with me on LinkedIn and message me there.  You can also go to the talkabouttalk.com website and send me a message there.  Thanks again for listening. I am grateful. And talk soon! The post The Currency of GRATITUDE with Michele Bailey (ep.155) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea coaches you on 5 quick fixes to boost your communication effectiveness: How to avoid upspeak, establish eye contact, focus on others, communicate with precision, and control your narrative. Where should you focus to get traction and improve your communication skills? CONNECT WITH ANDREA & TALK ABOUT TALK LinkedIn:  Andrea –  https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk about Talk – https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/ TRANSCRIPT Lately, when I’m in coaching sessions, I’ve been noticing a few common mistakes that many executives make. Sometimes it’s a bad habit.  Sometimes it’s just not knowing better. It almost always negatively impacts their credibility. Fortunately, there are quick fixes that can significantly improve their communication effectiveness, and ultimately boost their credibility.  So I thought it might for an impactful episode if I shared with you 5 quick fixes to boost your communication effectiveness. Are you curious what these 5 quick fixes are? Let’s do this. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast episode number 154, quick fixes to boost your communication effectiveness. Yes, this is going to be a productive episode. In case we haven’t met, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Please call me Andrea! I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives like you – to elevate your communication and your confidence, so you can establish credibility, and accomplish your career goals. If you go to the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about one-on-one coaching, online courses, bootcamps, corporate workshops, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get free communication coaching from me.  This is going to be a relatively short episode, but it’s going to be valuable for you. I encourage you to think about which one or two of these five things where you can get the most traction to improve your communication. I encourage you to carefully listen to the definitions, the examples, the stories, and the solutions that I will list for you here. Don’t worry about taking notes. As always, I do that for you. I’ll summarize what the five points are at the very end, and I encourage you to go to the talkabouttalk.com website where you can access the full transcript of this episode. Alright let’s get into this. The first quick fix that I recommend is this Avoid upspeak. 1of 5 Quick Fixes: Avoid Upspeak Upspeak is the habit of ending sentences with a rising intonation, as if posing a question. Kind of like this? It’s a common feature among many speakers?, particularly women and younger individuals,? but it’s not exclusive to them.  Recently I’ve noticed an uptick in Upspeak. Yeah, got that. And uptick in upspeak. It’s like upspeak might be a trend.  But this is not a trend you want to join. When you sound as if you’re asking a question, even when it’s not a question, you sound unsure of yourself, like you’re seeking validation.  This is not how credible leaders sound. If you’re not sure whether you use upspeak, I have three suggestions for how to diagnose yourself: Ask a trusted friend or even your boss.  You could say “I just learned about Upspeak.  Do you know what it is?” Then “Do you ever hear me using upspeak?” Record yourself in a meeting, and then listen specifically to your intonation.  Create a transcript of a meeting when you talk a lot and then search the transcript for question marks.  If the AI that created the transcript thinks you’re asking a Q, then chances are, so do us humans. Interestingly, with all of the executives with whom I’ve mentioned upspeak, none of them had heard of it. Then, once we talked about what it is and how it can negatively impact your credibility, 100% of them were able to at least minimize if not avoid upspeak altogether. That’s a pretty high cure rate! A few years ago, one of my clients asked me to meet with each of his direct reports in one-on-one coaching sessions, to improve their communication. I remember he told me that he was really excited about the potential of one of his newest recruits, a recent university graduate who was valedictorian of her class and was wickedly smart and ambitious. However, he was concerned that she didn’t come across as professional as she should. When I met her in our one-on-one coaching sessions, one of the first things that I diagnosed was her upspeak. I asked her whether she knew what it was and she said no. I remember when I was explaining to her what up speak is, and how it diminishes our credibility, instead of being defensive, she was curious and committed to stopping the upspeak. Given her growth mindset and her ambition, that is exactly what she did. Now, several years later. When I speak with this senior client he raves about her transformation in terms of her executive presence. Avoiding upspeak can make a massive difference, literally in your tone, and generally in your credibility. Upspeak was one of the first things I mentioned recently when I was coaching another future leader. His boss sent him to me for a series of coaching sessions to prepare him for promotion. After immediately diagnosing upspeak, he similarly admitted that he didn’t know what it is, After I explained what Upspeak is and how it diminishes our credibility, he told me he was committed to stop it. We brainstormed how to remind himself. This is not easy is it? Apparently slowing your speech can help you avoid upspeak, but what else can you do? It’s one thing to know what upspeak is.  It’s another to remind yourself to stop.  I guess that goes for many habits we’re trying to change. Anyway, here’s what he did: He took a post-it note and wrote a big question mark on it, with an X through it.  This was his reminder to himself to stop sounding like he was asking Qs.  It worked. In our second coaching session I only had to remind him a few times to avoid upspeak.  In the third session there was no upspeak at all. I’ve got more stories, but you get the idea. Based on my experience coaching folks on upspeak, it seems this is an easy fix with a big upside in terms of your perceived credibility.   Now, on to the second easy fix.   2 of 5 Quick Fixes: Make eye contact  Not establishing eye contact is, in my experience, even more common than Upspeak. Managers at all levels sometimes have a habit of looking around the room. Some people that I’ve coached have a habit of looking up at the ceiling, especially when they’re thinking about something and responding to something and they know everyone’s eyes are on them. But here’s the thing. You know that saying, eye-to-eye?. As in we see each other eye-to-eye… We trust people who make eye contact with us. And when we like people more, we’re more likely to make eye contact with them for longer. So think about the negative signal that you’re sending when you’re avoiding eye contact. Recently, I was coaching a senior banking executive who told me that she is conscious of the fact that she sometimes avoids eye contact and instead looks up at the ceiling. She told me that she feels as if she’s looking into her own brain. This is her almost involuntary response when she’s thinking deeply about what she’s about to say. I saw her do this a few times when we were meeting and then I suggested to her that you are smart enough to still be able to think about things without physically looking into your brain. We had a good laugh about that and she started practicing. And guess what? She was able to improve her eye contact. I’m not talking about staring into someone’s eyes for an uncomfortable length of time. That’s just creepy. I am talking about looking at the person instead of looking around the room. When you’re in person, especially if you’re seated around a meeting table or a boardroom table, try to make sure your chairs are all at the same level. You don’t want to be seated at a pedestal above everybody else, and you certainly don’t want to be sitting lower than everyone else. You want to see people eye-to-eye. I get this question a lot in terms of online meetings. Is it important to stare directly at the camera? This is something that we all had to work on in the early days of the pandemic when we were all working at home all the time and staring at our screens. Here’s my updated take on this question of staring at the camera for online meetings. It’s OK, and in fact it’s a good thing to look around the screen so you can see the expressions in the body language of the people that you’re meeting with. And by now, we’ve been doing this for long enough that we know what you’re doing when your eyes aren’t looking directly at the camera. So don’t worry about that. As I said, whether it’s in person or online , it’s important to scan the room for body language and facial expressions. However. And this is the main point here: when you are making your most important points, when you’re making a final recommendation, when someone asks you what you think, that’s when you should consciously look directly into the camera when you’re in an online meeting. People will non consciously perceive that you’re looking them in the eye and that you can be trusted. So that’s the second easy fix, establishing eye contact. The first one was avoiding upspeak and the 2nd is establishing eye contact, the third easy fix is:   3 of 5 Quick Fixes: Communicating with precision Of all of the easy fixes that I’m listing here, this is the one that senior executives often seek improvement on. Let me tell you what I share with these senior executives. First of all, give yourself a break. The reason you might not be communicating with precision is simply that you’re generous. You’re trying to share everything that you’re thinking about a topic with your audience or with the people with whom you’re communicating. However, If you really want to be a generous, you need to do the work to focus your message. You know the saying, If you try to share everything, they will absorb nothing. However, if you communicate one main point, your audience will understand exactly what your message is. So think about that one key message. Every time you write an e-mail. Every time you run a meeting. Every time you give a speech. Once you yourself are clear on your main message, I suggest, whether your communication is written say in an e-mail or whether it’s verbal. Start with your headline. Think about the online articles that you read and those that you choose not to read, and the significance of the headline. If you’re writing an e-mail, you can be perfectly explicit about this. Start off the e-mail by saying. The purpose of my e-mail is. And tell them. Then get into the details. If you’re leading a meeting, or if you’re delivering a speech, make sure you start with the headline. Then connect everything back to the main message. If you’re introducing yourself in a professional setting, You state your name, Your title and your firm, and then ideally, you identify something important about yourself:  your expertise. Or your value. Or your role in the meeting that’s about to take place. This is you creating your headline. So headlines are a key way to make sure we communicate with precision. They keep us focused. And they ensure that the audience knows what’s to come. As you may have heard me say, no one gets on a bus unless they know where it’s headed. Isn’t that a beautiful metaphor? Tell them where the bus is headed.  Share your headline. Another tactic to help you communicate with precision is to use the power of three. If  you’ve listened to a few Talk about Talk podcasts, you probably know I’m a huge fan of the power of Three. Three is enough to be substantive, but it’s not overwhelming. And that “overwhelming “ point is important here in our focus on communicating with precision. Depending on what your objective is, you might be able to very effectively combine this idea of starting with a headline along with the power of three. Let me give you a few examples of how this might work.  Imagine you are walking into a job interview and the interviewer starts by asking you to share a little bit about yourself. How the heck do you answer that question? Here’s what you do. You start with a headline, and you leverage the power of 3. You say something like this. My name is Katerina. An I am a human resource executive at a pharmaceutical firm. Three things that differentiate me relative to other. Pharmaceutical executives are. A B&C. Let me tell you what I mean by those three things. Then you elaborate on a. You elaborate on B and you elaborate on C. The advantage of this strategy of starting with a headline and leveraging the power of three is that the person who’s listening knows exactly how many points you’re going to make. It’s like you’ve provided them with a road map for your answer to their question. Here’s another example. Say you’re in a meeting and you’re asked. What do you think we should do? Option A or option B. Everyone turns to you and you know you’re in the hot seat. How do you answer this question? You start with your headline and you leverage the power of 3. Something like this.  “Well, there are certainly disadvantages and advantages for both. Otherwise this would be an easy answer. But based on my experience in working with other clients with similar challenges, I think we should go with option B. There are three main reasons for this.” Then you briefly summarize. Reason one, reason 2 and reason 3. Boom. When we practice these types of statements in my coaching sessions. With my clients, sometimes they ask me: what if I can’t think of three things? My answer to them is this. You are smart enough! You will always be able to come up with three things. Even if you don’t have them top of mind when you say “let me provide you with three reasons or three things.” You will be able to come up with a third thing when you’re talking. I promise. OK, so that’s the third easy fix communicating with precision. Try using headlines and leveraging the power of three. Now we’ve covered, avoiding upspeak, establishing eye contact and communicating with precision. The 4th easy fix is:   4 of 5 Quick Fixes: Focus on others As human beings, you could say that we’re all sort of self absorbed. We’re really focused on ourselves most of the time, and this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Part of this is self-awareness. self-awareness is important. And if we weren’t thinking about ourselves, we might not survive and we certainly would not thrive. However, focusing on others can elevate our communication and our general effectiveness. This is about being empathetic. This is about listening to the words, but also the subtext, the tone and the body language of others.  Stop thinking about yourself for a moment. This is also about being genuinely curious about what others think, and believing that they add value. I have two suggestions for how you do this.  The first suggestion is to be conscious of pronouns. I’m not necessarily talking about gender pronouns here. Not the she, her, he, him, they pronouns. I’m talking about whether your pronouns are focused on you or on the other people. Ask yourself. How often do you say I? How often do you say we? How often do you say you? I coached a gentleman awhile ago who unfortunately had the reputation of being self absorbed. I encouraged him… NO. I stated point blank that my recommendation to him was that to stop saying I and start saying We and You as much as possible. Another place to check your pronouns: your emails. Whenever I write an e-mail, I always look at the first word of every paragraph to make sure that I’m not focused on what I want and what I need. So that’s the first suggestion. Watch your pronouns.  The second suggestion is to ask questions. Ask lots and lots of questions. If you’re asking questions, you by definition are not focusing on yourself. You are focusing on what other people think and say.  The third suggestion is to track the ratio. Track the ratio of you speaking versus other people speaking in the room. Be mindful of your talk to listen ratio. Make sure that you are speaking at or below your fair share. If there’s only one other person you are speaking with, make sure you are speaking less than 50% of the time. If there’s five people in the room, make sure you’re speaking less than 20% of the time. Be other focused. So that’s the 4th quick fix – be Other Focused.  On to the last quick fix.   5 of 5 Quick Fixes: Control your narrative This one is probably the least quick of the five quick fixes I’ve listed here. But it’s really important. Controlling your narrative is about carefully, strategically choosing the words and phrases you use, ESPECIALLY about yourself. Here’s the thing:  The words coming out of your mouth about yourself are the most direct way you reinforce your personal brand. It’s explicit, because it’s words, and they’re coming out of YOUR mouth. This may be the most credible, most objective, most direct way for people to assess who you are. An obvious example of when this opportunity to control your narrative comes up includes, of course, when you’re introducing yourself.  Controlling your narrative is not about creating an elevator speech about yourself, but it is about consciously considering the words and the phrases that you want to reinforce about yourself. For example, many of the folks that I coach are leaders or aspiring leaders. So I encouraged them to use the word leader, lead or leadership as much as they can. You might introduce yourself as I lead the ABC division at this company or you might say “in that meeting that I led last week.” This is controlling your narrative. Another context when you can control your narrative is when you’re making a point in a meeting, or sharing your opinion.  Here’s what I encourage my clients to do.  Preface your recommendation or your opinion with a statement about your valuable experience or expertise. Let me give you an example. Imagine you’re in a meeting where your team is trying to decide whether to go with option A or option B. Instead of saying, I think we should go with option A. You take a step back and say. Based on my experience in banking. Or. Based on my expertise and focus on strategy and marketing. Or Based on the success of Our team’s previous client engagement…. You get the idea. You’re reinforcing your expertise or your success by sharing where your input is coming from. This is controlling your narrative.  A great example that I have for controlling your narrative came from a Q&A that I did a few years ago where a lawyer in New York talked about how tired she was of being known as an immigrant. Her brand, she said, was that of an immigrant. Yes, she was an immigrant from India. So, I asked her, You’re a lawyer in New York? Yes, in Manhattan. What kind of law? Corporate. OK, I said to her. You’re going to stop saying the word immigrant. Take control of your narrative. Replace Immigrant with GLOBAL EXPERIENCE. And here’s the thing. Your accent is simply a reminder to all of us of your global experience. Here’s your new narrative.  I am a corporate lawyer with a global perspective.  Yah, she was pretty happy with that new narrative. So now I’m asking you. What is there about your valuable experience, about your unique perspective, That you can use to similarly fuel your own narrative? And that’s the fifth of the five quick fixes to boost your communication effectiveness.  Do you remember what they are? The 5 quick fixes include avoiding upspeak. Establishing eye contact. Focusing on the other. Communicating with precision. And controlling your narrative. Now here’s your challenge. Take out a sheet of paper and write down these five quick fixes. Then ask yourself. In which one of these areas am I most deficient? where is there opportunity? and where can I get traction?  then double down, implement the quick fix , and boost your communication effectiveness. If  you enjoyed this podcast episode, I do hope you’ll share with your friends who could also benefit from some quick fixes to boost their communication effectiveness. YOU could also leave me a review on whatever podcast app you’re using. It really makes a difference and I appreciate it. Don’t forget to signup for my free communication coaching newsletter on the talkabouttalk.com website.  Thanks again for listening.  And talk soon! The post 5 QUICK FIXES to Boost your Communication Effectiveness (ep.154) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Should I share my personal life at work? This is about boundaries and navigating your professional identity. Andrea shares 3 real risks to sharing your personal life at work, then 3 levels of benefits. The balance between sharing personal information and maintaining professional boundaries is delicate and can significantly affect workplace culture, individual well-being, and even your own career trajectory.   CONNECT WITH ANDREA & TALK ABOUT TALK LinkedIn:  Andrea –  https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk about Talk – https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Website: TalkAboutTalk.com Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/ TRANSCRIPT Whenever this topic of sharing your personal life at work comes up, I always think of this experience I had about 10 years ago. I was serving as an advisor for a small private firm. I respected the CEO very much. He sent an e-mail out to all of the advisors asking us to submit to him our corporate bios for the website. At the bottom of his email request, he said something like, “Please make sure you include some personal details at the end. We all know that people tend to like us better when we add some personal details to the bottom of our professional bio.” I remember thinking:  Is that true?  Seems possible. I want to see the research! I get this Q a lot in the workshops and coaching I do.  Men and women both ask me about this. Should we talk about our hobbies? Should I mention that I run ultra marathons?? Should I mention that I do stand up comedy on the weekends? Or that I look after my partner’s elderly parents? Should I mention that I have a newborn at home? In this episode, I’m going to share with you what the academic research says about specific reasons that we should or perhaps should not share our private or personal life at work.  The advantages and disadvantages, if you will.  The answer to this question of “should we share our personal life at work?” does not have a simple yes or no answer. I would think of it more as a checklist or a series of considerations. My goal is to help you make informed decisions about whether and what to share about your personal life at work, depending on your PERSONAL context. Sound good? Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast episode number 153, sharing your personal life at work.   In case we haven’t met, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Please call me Andrea! I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I coach communication skills to ambitious executives like you – to elevate your communication, your confidence, and your clarity, so you can establish credibility, and accomplish your career goals. If you go to the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find many resources to help you out. There’s information there about one-on-one coaching, online courses, some amazing bootcamps that I run every few months, corporate workshops, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, AND, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter. That newsletter is your chance to get free communication coaching from me every week.  Alright let’s get into this. A few years ago, at the beginning of COVID, I was doing small group personal branding workshops for senior female executives around the world. One brave participant asked how to manage her personal brand at work, particularly in the context of sharing her personal life. She told us all about a recent experience in her new role as a partner in her male-dominated organization. She noticed immediately that the few times when she mentioned her children or family obligations, the room got quiet.  She got a strong signal that talk about your life outside of work was not welcome here. This not uncommon. OK, that was a double negative. This is common. In fact, there’s a name for this. It’s called quote the motherhood penalty, unquote. Researcher Shelly Correll’s work demonstrates how women, in particular, can be disadvantaged by perceptions that their family responsibilities will interfere with work commitments. Have you ever experienced, or maybe wondered whether you were experiencing the motherhood penalty?? I remember when I was in the job market in the last year of my doctoral program, looking for a job as a new faculty member.  I was interviewing at some amazing universities in The US, in Europe and in Canada.  I was married with a 1 year old at the time, and certainly hoping to have more children. I know a lot of women struggle with what to disclose in terms of their family situation. Should I talk about my baby? Never mind my plans to have more children? Should I even wear a ring?  This sounds crazy to me now, but I DID take my wedding ring off for a few interviews. I didn’t want to prime anyone to wonder about my motherhood status. But then I decided if being a mom was a bad thing at any of these universities, then I probably didn’t want to work there anyway. The ring went back on. Wow, I forgot about that whole experience. More recently, I was coaching a woman who has two young children, who asked me whether and how she should tell prospective employers that she’s DONE having kids. That’s an interesting one!  Then, just a few weeks ago, one of my friends, a successful tech entrepreneur, told me that decades ago, she went into a job interview very pregnant. I cannot imagine. She got the job, had the baby, and had a stellar career at that firm for over a decade. That’s a happy story. But this isn’t always so easy, is it? I suppose there are really two questions here, there is one general question about sharing your personal life at work across all dimensions. Talking about your own childhood, where and how you grew up, your hobbies, what you do on weekends, and yes, your family. And then secondly, there’s a question about discrimination against women, and particularly their roles as mothers and how that impacts their professional careers. Understanding that the motherhood penalty is a real thing, and that it may compound any potential negative effects on sharing your personal life at work, I’m going to focus on the first Q.  We’re going to focus more generally in this episode, as I said, on the pros and cons or the advantages and disadvantages of sharing your personal self in professional contexts. At the end of this episode, I’m going to share with you a summary. Almost like a checklist for you to consider when you’re deciding whether and what to share about your personal life at work. So as always, you don’t need to take notes as you’re listening to this podcast. I do that for you! First of all, there’s the summary at the end, and secondly, if you want to read the checklist, you can always find it on the transcript on the Talk About Talk website. OK – we’ve established that this is a very common question that people have – how much and what to share at work. But research also shows that it is an important, a critical question. Research shows that what we share about our personal identity can have at least as much impact on our professional reputation as our expertise and accomplishments at work. Let me say that again. What we share about ourselves personally can impact our professional reputation even more so than things that are more directly related to our professional identity. The balance between sharing personal information and maintaining professional boundaries is delicate and can affect workplace culture, individual well-being, and yes, our career trajectory. Let me start by addressing this Q in the context of your personal brand. For those of you who have listened to previous Talk about Talk episodes focused on personal branding, or maybe if you’ve been to one of my workshops, you know that when I say personal brand, I mean, I mean your whole, complete, authentic Self. Your personal brand includes ALL of the most important elements or traits that comprise you, the whole person. When I’m working with executives to help them articulate their personal brands, we create what I call a personal branding template. In this template, we list their passions, their expertise, their values, their principles, their accomplishments. And so on.  At the bottom of the template, I encourage them to include 3-5 positive and unique parts of their personal identities. Their hobbies, family role, and so on.  The big Q is:   Should we share these personal elements of our personal brand at work?  Should we share every single element in our personal branding template with others? My answer might surprise you. Should we share our whole selves at work?   Absolutely not,   In fact, We shouldn’t share our whole selves with anyone!  It would be overwhelming. If I shared everything with you about me, you’d think I was crazy.  Save everything for your epic biography!  OK, so what should we do?  We should FILTER what elements of our identity that we share.  The keyword here is FILTER. To be clear: we are always the same person. But in different contexts and with different people, We should think about FILTERING what parts of our identity, our brand, what parts of our LIFE we want to share.  This notion of consistent with what Irving Goffman, a famous Canadian born sociologist calls Impression management. Goffman was one of the most influential thinkers in this area of impression management, culminating in his work entitled,  “The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life.”  Goffman provided foundational insights into how we perform roles in various contexts, including, of course, at work. He talks about this concept of “front stage” and “back stage” as a way of thinking about how we manage our professional identities.  I call it filtering. When we’re at work, we might filter out some of our personal life and our personal roles. That doesn’t mean they’re completely eliminated from our entire being, and overtime, of course, we may share more of our personal lives an roles with our coworkers. But generally, we filter out our personal and present our professional traits at work.   And of course vice versa. In our personal life we don’t introduce ourselves typically in terms of our work title and the last work project that we completed.  So I call it filtering, Goffman calls it front stage and backstage.  Let me give you an example. Last year I coached an impressive CEO on this personal brand. One of the many things that I love about coaching ambitious executives on their personal brand is that I get to know people very quickly. If you’re going to be successful at creating an articulating your brand, you have to be pretty open about sharing your passions and your expertise and really every part of your life. Anyway, at the beginning of our 3rd coaching session with this impressive CEO, he started by apologizing for how he dressed, saying he just came back from a run. I said, “oh you run  That hasn’t come up in our conversation.’   “Yes,” he responded. “Actually, I run ultra marathons.” “WHAT? Why hasn’t that come up in the context of your personal brand?” “Oh, I didn’t think it was relevant.” “Of course it’s relevant!  Its positive, it’s unique, it’s impressive, it demonstrates your energy and your discipline, should I go on?” He laughed.  We ended up re-writing his LinkedIn headline to conclude with “avid runner”” and he imported a banner image to his LinkedIn profile that showed him at the starting line of a marathon that he ran. So when this CEO ‘s at work and yes, on his LinkedIn profile, he leads with his leadership expertise and his credentials. These things are front stage. Backstage, he might mention his personal interests, including things like the fact that he’s an avid runner. He doesn’t lad with that. He filters that out, or at least makes it secondary. This is just one of many many conversations I’ve had with clients who are apprehensive about whether and what parts of their personal life they should share in conversations at work, in their corporate bios, or on LinkedIn. So I did some reading – I went through the academic research on the risks and benefits of sharing your personal life at work. I created a list of us of 3 specific risks and 3 ways to think about the advantages of sharing personal life at work. I Yes, of course 3.  Always  The 3 Risks of Sharing your Personal life at work include: Privacy concerns, Reinforcement of stereotypes & biases, and Violating norms.  Let me tell you what I mean by each of these. 1.PRIVACY CONCERNS Obviously sharing personal details can expose you to privacy risks. Consider what information you’re comfortable with people knowing.  This could be about your demographics, your health – physical and mental, your family members, etc.  How much and what do you really want  people to know? This reminds me of a recent experience. A few months ago I was hired by one of the big 5 audit forms to run a series of workshops in person. One of the senior partners stood at the front of the room to kick off the first session by introducing the program, and then introducing me.  She was obviously very well-regarded by the folks in the room, and I could tell she had a good sense of humour.  She made a joke, saying something like, “wow – this is nerve wracking.  I’m up here in the spotlight, formally introducing a COMMUNICATION COACH to all of you. Talk about anxiety! I’m sure I’m doing it all wrong.   Once she formally  introduced me, I thanked her and said, Actually, I can think of something worse than introducing a communication coach. It’s BEING a communication coach and living with three critical teenagers who are watching you carefully, ready to pounce on any communication blunder you make.  Welcome to my world, Claire!” Everyone in the room smiled and laughed. I realized that before I even started talking about the workshop material, they already knew I have three kids. Because of privacy concerns, I never share my kids’ names. Privacy concerns about our children, especially on social media is a topic that we could do a whole episode on. But the point is that whether you’re talking about your demographics (where you live, your age, your family, your socio economic status), also your health status – mentally and physically, and more – and it could be in person, in a workshop or on social media. These are all things that we need to be careful about in terms of privacy concerns. That’s the first risk. The second risk to sharing personal information is that it can 2.REINFORCE STEROTYPES & BIASES Here’s the thing. We’re all looking to for signals from others to interpret who we’re dealing with – including our coworkers. Sometimes the information we share can provide evidence that reinforces a negative stereotype.   Like young mothers. The negative stereotypes include that they are sleep deprived and less loyal and less hardworking than others.  Ugh.  Or like people who grew up a certain country. We sometimes assume they will have particular values or principles or even abilities. These are biased assumptions.  This is an important point: As I said earlier, research shows that people may be more likely to form opinions about you based on personal aspects as opposed to your professional qualifications.  Sometimes this is because of the biases that people may hold, even implicit biases, against some element of your personal background – something that’s not even directly related to your career. Recently in one of my personal branding bootcamps, there was a female CEO who talked about this directly. This CEOs hobby was baking.  She loved baking and she loved giving her cookies and cakes to family, friends, and yes, co-workers. She told us that she was acutely aware of the bias against women in leadership positions, and how bringing cookies to her team at the office might just reinforce her identity as a woman – and maybe a woman who belongs in the kitchen.  YIKES. I have to give her kudos though. She was acutely aware and strategic about the stereotype.  She called it out as she was sharing the cookies. Like: don’t you dare discriminate against me, just because I’m conforming to the female stereotype of being in the kitchen.  Yes, I can bake a mean cookie.  But I’m also successfully leading this team to meet our KPIs! I love it! So that’s the second risk – potential bias.  We’ve  covered privacy concerns and potential bias.  The 3rd risk of sharing personal details is related to boundaries and relevance. It’s about 3.VIOLATING NORMS This is really about conforming to or violating the norms at an institutional level – like the norms associated with your industry or your corporate culture, and also at a contextual level.  Professor Kristie Rogers at Marquette University focuses her research on identity and professional boundaries at work.  Maintaining professional boundaries is crucial for workplace dynamics. Over-sharing or inappropriate sharing of personal information can blur these boundaries, leading to discomfort or conflicts within teams.  And even more so depending on the corporate culture.  Of course!  So there’s the norms of the corporate culture. Of the institution. Then within that one institution, there are many different contexts.  Like if you’re selling something to a new prospective client, versus chatting with a familiar co-worker that you communicate with on a daily basis. Of course, the longer we know someone, the more we tend to share. Here’s a context most of you are familiar with- LinkedIn I remember posting something on LinkedIn years ago. The post was about something related to the art world. (Yes I’m also a painter. Did you know that?) Anyway, an old co-worker – a guy I knew years ago ,commented on the post that I should move it to Facebook. He publicly commented on my post, shaming me for sharing something that wasn’t directly career-related.  In other words, he believed I was violating norms. (By the way – you might be wondering what I did? I PRIVATELY messaged him and explain my rationale.  His response was belligerent. So I blocked him. ) Anyway, here’s a context where the norms are evolving. LinkedIn used to be almost exclusively about job searching.  Now it’s a professional network where people connect on all sorts of topics, including job searching, yes, but also industry thought leadership, mentorship, career progression, professional AND PESRONAL development, and yes, even personal interests. The NORMS of what’s acceptable to post on LinkedIn have evolved. So those are the 3 reasons why you might NOT want to share personal information at work: privacy concerns, biases, and norms. Chances are, if you feel li9ke you messed up by sharing too much, it’s because of one of these three things: privacy issues, reinforcing negative biases, or violating norms.   So what can we do when we do mess up?  Back to our filter metaphor.  We messed up and shared too much.  That’s when we need to MEND our filter.  We can adjust what and how much we share. But that certainly doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t share anything personal at work!  In fact, there are several compelling reasons why we SHOULD share personal things at work.   This idea of the blurred line between personal and professional boundaries is considered by several academic researchers including Kristie Rogers and Shelley Carroll whom I just mentioned, plus Laura Morgan Roberts. Nancy Rothbart and Ashley Martin, just to name a few. Generally, the research highlights that sharing some aspects of your personal identity or personal life at work can BENEFIT us on 3 levels: organizational performance, team cohesion, and individual well-being  So I categorized these benefits into three levels or reasons – there’s the macro or group level, there’s the 1:1 relationship level, and there’s the individual level. Here’s the thing.  Particularly if you’re a leader, you can consider this both for yourself AND for your team.  This is important at both a cultural and an individual level. Starting 1. at a macro level,  We see that by sharing personal stories and experiences, individuals can challenge and reduce stereotypes in the workplace. Yes, this is related to the disadvantage I mentioned to sharing personal details – stereotypes and bias. Shelley Carrell’s research on gender stereotypes, for example, suggests that personal narratives can play a role in changing preconceived notions and biases. It can also improve job satisfaction and even sometimes reduce burnout for everyone in the organization Research also indicates that knowing about our coworkers’ lives outside of work can foster empathy and support within teams. A supportive macro environment like this can also lead to reduced stress and increased job satisfaction. When people are  comfortable being and sharing some of their personal life at work, they can be more authentic and true to their distinct identity. Despite the recent backlash against DEI, the benefits of diversity and inclusion in the workplace are well-documented in academic literature. Sharing personal experiences can help highlight and celebrate diversity, contributing to a more inclusive culture. This relates to Amy Edmondson’s work on psychological safety, where individuals perceptions of the risks of being their true self impacts team performance. Basically this point here is that when the individual feels comfortable being their whole and true self at work, the organization also benefits at a macro level. Makes sense. OK, let’s look at the second level, the relationship level. 2. at a 1:1 relationship level Of course we’ve all noticed that OVER TIME, we share more personal details with our co-workers. And when someone shares something personal, we typically respond by doing that same thing.  This is supported by theories like the Social Penetration Theory, which highlights how over time, gradual self-disclosure helps deepen interpersonal relationships, often leading to improved workplace communication and relationships. We probably don’t need to read the academic research to understand that when people reveal things about themselves, they’re signaling that they trust us and then we in turn reciprocate with trust. The social bond is elevated. Strengthened. Suddenly teamwork and collaboration are much more viable an effective. You’ve probably also noticed overtime that we all look for similarities or things in common with others. Again, this applies for both professional interests, but also, and perhaps even to a greater extent, Personal insights. If you share a personal interest, a hobby, Or maybe you went to the same college or lived in the same city, as someone else. Shared interests and experiences create social bonds. When you share that you grew up on the east coast, or that you play golf, or that you enjoy baking or that you too have young children, you create a connection.  So at a relationship level, you can think of two reasons why you might want to share personal information: Its (1)  to create an environment or relationship characterized by TRUST and (2.) to establish SIMILARITY or things in common.  It’s all about creating connection. Now we’ve looked at the macro level and the relationship level. The third and last level to consider in terms of the benefits of sharing personal information is the  3. Individual level.  This is about establishing your professional identity or your personal brand. Sharing personal interests or achievements can reinforce that you are a well-rounded individual, and perhaps even highlight diverse skills that might be tangentially related to your career success. A great example of this is the CEO client that I was talking about earlier in this episode, who was an avid runner, he ran ultra marathons. Clearly, this hobby isn’t directly related to his professional expertise. But it does share that he is well-rounded, disciplined and has a lot of energy. At an individual level, sharing personal information can make you more relatable to your audience. It adds a human touch to your professional accomplishments, making you seem more approachable. Personally, I might share things like how I workout most days at noon, online with a bunch of women – an amazing routine that we started at the beginning of covid.  Or how I love painting.  Or – here’s one.  I have three extremely tall children.  Depending on the context and the people or person with whom I’m communicating, these insights can make people feel closer to me or simply to signal that I am a real human with a real life. These personal insights are mostly backstage when I’m in my role as an executive communication coach.  But they’re still there, and I might decide to share them, depending on the context.  Ask yourself: Is there some outside interest that you pursue, that you might want to share? It doesn’t have to be over the top. It doesn’t have to be an extreme sport or something like running ultra marathons. Just something that showcases you as a well-rounded human. Maybe it’s artistic, Or maybe it’s athletic. Or maybe it’s your family. Unique hobbies, interests, or aspects of your background can make you more relatable and maybe even more memorable. There you go – 3 risks and 3 levels of benefits of disclosing personal information at work.  Let me summarize and remind you what they are.  This is your checklist.  The risks of sharing personal information at work include (1.) privacy concerns, (2.) reinforcement of negative stereotypes and bias, and (3.) violating norms. The benefits are plenty, so I encourage you to consider them at 3 levels: (1.)At an institutional level, (2.) at a relationship level, and (3.) most obviously, at a personal level, in terms of reinforcing your POSITIVE and UNIQUE personal brand. So now what do you do with all this? My suggestion is that you carefully and strategically share elements of your personal identity in professional contexts. Now then, here’s my challenge to you. Take some time to identify 3-5 elements of your personal life that you might share at work.  Consider carefully the risks (the privacy concerns, negative stereotypes & bias, and violating norms) along with the benefits (at an institutional level, at a 1:1 relationship level and at an individual level). And if you’re a leader, remember that you are role model and how you respond when others share personal information, never mind when and what personal information you yourself share, has a significant impact on your organization.  Remember, we should certainly strive to be authentic. Always. We are our true selves.  But that doesn’t mean we are 100% transparent. We don’t share everything with everyone.  Goodness no! Alright that’s it.  If  you enjoyed this podcast episode, I do hope you WILL  SHARE IT with your friends and maybe even leave me a review on whatever podcast app you’re using. It really makes a difference and I appreciate it. If you want to connect, I’d love to hear from you. I’d love to hear what you thought about this episode, and maybe ideas for future episodes. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or on the talkabouttalk.com website and send me a message.  Thanks again for listening.  And talk soon! The post Should I Share My PERSONAL Life at Work? (ep.153) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Mindfulness can elevate our communication skills. Learn how to be mindful in specific communication contexts by pausing, communicating with intention, and acknowledging our inner critic. Anne Muhlethaler (yogi, meditation teacher, podcaster and luxury brand consultant) shares her experiences and valuable insights.   RESOURCES Anne Muhlethaler Out of the Clouds podcast, AVM Consulting LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-muhlethaler-a1323010/ Instagram: @annvi Recommendations: “Deep Work” by Cal Newport “Being Well” by Rick and Forrest Hanson “Design Matters” by Debbie Millman PRACTICING Our Communication Skills Episodes #73 “Practicing with V.R. Technology” with Robson Beaudry: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/73-practice-with-robson-beaudry/ #72 “What is Practice” with Dr. Nadine Kelly, YogiMD: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/72-practice-with-nadine-kelly/  Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – [email protected] Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you very much, and for joining us here today to talk about mindful communication. Anne Muhlethaler: I’m so excited to be here. AW: Let’s get into this. What is mindfulness? AM: Mindfulness is a term that’s over-used. And I feel like a lot of people are confused about it. So let’s break it down. Mindfulness essentially means maintaining a form of awareness, moment-by-moment, of our thoughts, our feelings, our physical sensations, and the surrounding environment. But the difference that it has with awareness, for example, is that mindfulness has a quality of kindness or nurturing lens, if you wish. One of the best definitions of mindfulness meditation was coined by Jon Kabat-Zinn. He is the founder of MBSR, which is called Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program. And he comes from a big family of scientists, he was at MIT before he got introduced to mindfulness and meditation. So his definition always stands well against two people who, who need clarity on this… AW: like myself. AM: Yeah, but this is particularly to the meditation part. So he says, and every word is important in this. Mindfulness Meditation is the awareness that arises from paying attention on purpose in the present moment, and non-judgmentally. And I think that what most people do not understand is the on purpose part. You can be self-aware and not be self-aware on purpose. Of course, we’re assuming that you’re being self-aware in the moment. And the piece that I think took me a lot longer to learn is the non-judgmentally. And these four key parts really, altogether, sum up what mindfulness meditation is. Now, just to make it clear, for everybody who is listening to us, there are two sort of basic pillars of mindfulness if you wish, in terms of practices. There are the non-formal practices, and there are the formal practices. So formal practice is seated, standing, walking, or lying down meditation, all four types are equally as valid as the other. So for example, when I teach groups and I can see someone’s very fidgety, I encourage them not to be doing the meditation seated, but to stand,. And then the informal mindfulness practices is to cultivate this state of moment by moment awareness, but doing everyday tasks. My favorite teacher for this is Thích Nhất Hạnh, who’s a really famous Buddhist, virtual thinker, and activist, and he teaches you to pay attention to eating. So mindful eating, mindful walking, and he has really delightful examples of practicing mindfulness, when you’re washing the dishes, listen to the sound of the water, smell the smells in the kitchen, really tap into all of your senses. Feel the water on your hands. And you really, this is one of the ways that you can feel yourself being present rather than just necessarily being in your mind and your thoughts. AW: What I have two thoughts about that. So one is it it just sounds idyllic? Right? It’s almost like okay, how you feel? Yeah, I guess. Yeah, feeling the water. It just sounds like a sensual. And I don’t mean sexual. I mean, like, through the senses, you’re really, really aware of your sense of touch, and the temperature and the flow of the water, for example, as it comes out of the tap, and over your hands. The other thing is, you were listing some of those contexts for me was, I hear people talking about being aware of those contexts, when they’re diagnosed with a mortal illness, right? Like when they realize they’ve got a month to live, and then suddenly, they want to, and then they do feel the rain on their face when they go outside? AM: Yes, yes, absolutely. We are all I would say, in our natural state, reactive as human beings as animals, with our old limbic brain. And so mindfulness invites us not to live in the limbic brain, not to solely be in our minds in our thoughts. And yes, you’re right. One of the keys for me, the one thing that I keep on pulling out is that connection through the body and the senses, which I think is misunderstood in most types of meditations that are not transcendental per se. So I know that for me for my personal experience in the 40 or so years that I’ve spent on this planet, a large part of my life, I wasn’t particularly connected to my body. And our body is, first and foremost, the gateway to experiencing this life. AW: Yeah, I love that. That’s a great quote. AM: Thank you. Yeah, but it is through our senses. And it is largely through our bodies that we experience the world around us. Not solely, but it is the major source of this experience. My teacher calls this the body suit, the space suit that we use to get around. AW: Very cool, very cool. AM: So the body piece for me is very important. And you’re right, that is an element of we can really anchor ourselves in our senses to feel present, it is one of the easiest ways into the present moment. AW: Okay, so before we get into being mindful with our communication, can you share with us what the benefits are of mindfulness? AM: there’s the obvious stuff. So I also come from a family with a lot of scientists and doctors. And I love the studies that have been published in the past 20 or 30 years, because there’s a lot of them around less stress. So stress, decrease, better sleep, low anxiety levels, and more serious diseases. Obviously, chronic back pain, chronic pain, in general, is something that can be really very much decreased through the mbsr program, amongst others. I heard that surpasses IBS. So in terms of the overall health benefits, they are numerous, they are incredibly well researched, and I think it still feels to me like it’s early days in terms of in terms of the research, because each type of practice offers, I guess, a different types of benefits. So I mentioned the broader definitions of mindfulness. But I should say that the pillars in terms of the formal practices of meditation, so the four pillars are mindfulness of breath, mindfulness of body, mindfulness of thoughts and emotions, and then what’s called Mindfulness of the constructs of the mind. And so these are the types of meditations that I teach in various class formats, that all feed into each other so that we become more intimate and more aware with the sensations in and around our body. With the breath, the breath is key. And it took me years to figure that out. And then the content of our thoughts and emotions, and the stories that are constructed in our minds around those. AW: Okay, so the fourth pillar that you mentioned there, the constructs of the mind, that’s really stories? AM: yes. AW: Okay, now you’re speaking my language. But back to the first pillar, I keep hearing over and over and over again, in all sorts of contexts, of course, in terms of our health and kind of medical benefits, but just in terms of communication, breathing really is king. If you’re not leveraging breathing, for example, you’re getting up on stage, just thinking first about your breath. You know, it has such a huge impact on how you feel, and then also on how you’re perceived. AM: Well, I’d reverse that actually, it’s almost like, if you check what your breath is like, it will tell you about your state. So I would like to encourage everyone and I’m reminding myself of that, too, that the breath is the language of the nervous system. If you can’t inhale, if you have trouble exhaling if you feel that your breath pattern is not normal, it’s a sign of disruption. And one of the great reasons to adopt mindfulness practices is essentially Well, this is I’m going to tell you a story from my teacher, Annie Carpenter, who’s an amazing yoga teacher. She’s an avid birdwatcher, like she’s obsessed with birds. And there’s a very similar practice in bird watching and watching our breath. She was saying that she was taught by this very, let’s say seasoned Birdman. And we call them who said, who said, what you want to do is you want to find a spot and you want to come at the same time every day. It doesn’t matter whether you watch five minutes or 20 minutes or an hour. The idea is you want to establish an understanding of the baseline. What is the normal state and in coming back over and over again, you’ll then pick up if something has happened, you know, if if a bird of prey has arrived or any other disruption in the natural environment, and I think that one of the reasons why It is so helpful and so fascinating, even if you only manage for five minutes a day, is when you get a sense of the baseline, you’re going to get a better sense of when you’re not feeling okay. And then the next step is the inquiry about what’s not okay about the situation. Right? That’s the beauty. And the real juicy part about mindfulness is we don’t, I love this quote, We don’t meditate to become good at breathing or good at meditating. we meditate to get better at life. AW: Oh, that’s beautiful. I love that. AM: Isn’t it good? I mean, when the first time I heard it, I was like, Oh, yeah, of course, we knew that. But that is just eloquent. It’s perfect. I may have butchered the quote, but yeah, you get the, you get the benefit of it, AW: I definitely get the benefit of it. Okay. So in your Out of the Clouds podcast, you say that your topic is at the crossroads between mindfulness and business. So my question is, how can the listeners adopt this mindfulness in their business or at work? AM: So I was reflecting the other day, because I was graduating from this two year course, our teacher invited us at the end to say, if you had only one last opportunity to teach, if you were to teach only one more time, what would you talk about? AW: Wow. AM: I know, I was not ready for that. And I think that’s what I would say, it’s the same about business or about life. First, I would cultivate loving kindness or self-kindness, which is one of the compassion practices that you get taught alongside mindfulness of the body. Because first, we need to be kind to ourselves, it’s not just enough to be aware of the content of our thoughts, it’s also important for us to be kind to ourselves, a lot of us most of us have difficult inner dialogue, particularly around work around performance. AW: And this is amplified in an environment where hard work and busy-ness is celebrated, right? AM: 100%. Yeah. So the first piece that I would say is incredibly important for everyone is to first to look after your inner dialogue, self-kindness, and self-compassion. It’s almost like this principle of we need to put our oxygen mask on first, right? You cannot look after others well, if you’re not looking after yourself first. And so for me, I think it’s the most essential. Now more specifically, when we are at work, the biggest thing is to learn to pause. So when we establish a baseline, and we notice some things going wrong, we need to pause we need to stop. One of the difficulties is that the more stressed we are, the more reactive we become. And so essentially, the biggest gift we can give ourselves is when we find ourselves to be reactive, when we find ourselves not being our best selves, or showing up in our best light is to take a break, go to the loo, sorry, go to the toilet. Anything that you can do to just remove yourself and just take a breath. AW: Right, right. AM: I think that one of the biggest things that we can learn to do is to step away, when you find yourself in reactive mode, when you see that there’s a big trigger, that’s happened, give yourself from five minutes to 24 hours until you choose to respond. So you need to be able to brush it off. Before you can engage. AW: Yeah, absolutely. These stress triggers, if that’s what you want to call them, are not just affecting our mind, they’re affecting our whole body. AM: Yes. AW: And then that impacts what we end up communicating and sending back out in the world. And we don’t want to be on autopilot when that happens. AM: Absolutely. So I would say the third piece of advice I would have to say for business or work, it’s remembering our intention. Sometimes we can be a bit petty, or we do something we don’t even know why maybe it’s actually because we’re hungry or thirsty or tired. And it has nothing to do with the person in front of us. So I would encourage everyone to actually write this like write intention on a poster and stick that in the center of your computer screen, or put it on the mirror in your bathroom. And a few times a day, remember your actual intention before you send an email before you have a conversation. Because I think most of the time again, because we are used to being in a place of reactivity, we forget what is the underlying intention of What it is that we’re doing? To be honest with you, I have to practice this every day, several times a day to make it feel like it’s taking a dent in my reactivity. And I’m pretty chilled compared to most people. AW: Yeah. Wow. So my brain is exploding right now. AM: Well, let’s take a pause. AW: I haven’t used the term intention. But I have been talking about this. and dare I say, preaching this in a variety of communication contexts. So for example, small talk, maybe you’re at a networking conference, and you’re meeting people for the first time and you’re feeling awkward. One of the tactics that I encourage people to do is to take a step back, think strategically about what your purpose is. In other words, as you would say, what’s your intention here? AM: Andrea, you’re encouraging them to be mindful! AW: Exactly. AM: Taking a step back is a metaphor for pausing. AW: Right. And more recently, I’ve been coaching people on how to prepare to be more productive in meetings, whether you’re leading or participating, a meeting, and whether it’s in real life or in a boardroom table, or whether it’s online. And one of the things that I encourage people to do is at the top of your meeting agenda, write down what your personal objective is for the meeting. In other words, put your intention for participating in this meeting. Right? AM: Absolutely. Hmm. That’s exactly what it is. AW: So we’ve got kindness, we’ve got pausing. And we’ve got focusing on intention. Do you have any other frameworks or other ways that we can just remind ourselves to be more mindful? AM: Yeah, of course. So these are again, considered more informal sides of mindfulness. So intention would be a first. But the second one, there’s a great acronym that really spells it out, when you find yourself to be in that place where something’s wrong, the acronym is STOP. So S is for stop and put things down for a minute. Whether you take a break, leave the room, go to your balcony, if that’s where I can do my home, or you go around the block, just put things down and step away. AW: Okay. AM: Then T stands for Take a few deep breaths, as I was saying before, the breath is the language of the nervous system. So taking what is often called square breath, four counts in four counts out is a great way to calm yourself, if you can take a few deep cycles of breath. For people who aren’t particularly anxious, like really, you’re triggered by something bigger, I can even recommend, the goal is to make the out breath slower. So let’s say that you breathe in for two or three or four, you breathe out for six, seven or eight, a period of time. The O stands for observe, this is the inquiry moment, observe, what are the thoughts that are going through your mind? What are the emotions and what is going on through your body? AW: So it’s internal observation. AM: Exactly. AW: Okay. AM: And then hoping that by then you have found some levels of steadiness. P stands for precede, so you get back to the person in front of you. This is not a tactic to deal with trauma, this is more of a day to day framework. There’s another one, which is even more simple. And you can try to put this in your calendar so you can practice it every day. It’s called “2 feet 1 breath.” And essentially, it does the same job of anchoring us into the present moment. So if you want to close your eyes and try it with me, AW: sure! AM: So I’m going to ask you first to feel into your left foot and start pressing into the floor, pressing into the floor and maybe wiggle your toes and feel your foot around, whatever is covering it. And now I’m going to ask you to feel into the right foot, maybe you wiggle it around, and then you push down and get a sense of the steadiness under the surface. And really set then take a deep breath in. And a deep breath out. It’s a grounding practice to just make us feel more in the present moment. How did that feel? AW: I feel so chill now. I really do. AM: I’m wearing really comfy socks. So that was a nice experience for me too. AW: I’m gonna go put on some more comfy socks after this. Wow. Yeah, so. Wow. So let’s talk about mindfulness in other communication contexts. So for example, if you’re in a meeting, something that may be relevant for a lot of listeners say you’re in a really boring zoom meeting and you know that you got to pay attention. Do you have any ideas or recommendations for how people can successfully become more mindful, or I guess, reap the benefits of becoming more mindful in this boring online meeting context? AM: Sure, essentially, I would recommend to try and give your whole attention to the person who’s speaking. And what I mean by that is, try to cultivate this state of presence, without judging, without commentary. And without engaging in what possible response you’re going to bring. But really try to simply take in what the other person is saying. AW: So as you were describing that, I was thinking of the word absorbing, so you’re really absorbing the verbal communication and the nonverbal communication? And really, that’s listening. Right? AM: Oh, absolutely. AW: It’s harder than we give it credit for. I mean, listening is, I call it a superpower, it is probably the superpower of communication. Before we move on to something else, I just want to go back to this word, non-judgmental, you said before. It’s one of the hardest things and as you’re describing it now, for me, I’m realizing that’s got to be one of the most challenging parts of being mindful. Do you have any advice on how we can be less judgmental? AM: Yeah. And starting to have a practice of mindfulness of thought and emotions, you first need to become a little bit more intimate with the content of your own thoughts. Well, a lot of us don’t want to do it, because it’s a bit scary in there sometimes. And I think it’s important to be aware, because you’ll end up being able to group thoughts together, you’ll be like, Oh, yeah, that’s planning mind. Or, oh, that’s judgment, judgment mind. And you’ll see that there are some areas and all thoughts come back. I think it’s important to be aware of your internal critic, your inner critic, in order to be able to not as the silence said, but I think the best advice I’ve heard, the important thing about the inner critic is to recognize that generally, it’s there to point out something. So maybe it’s afraid that you’re going to fail, or it’s the voice of different things that could be in your life on your past. And I think that one of the ways to stop being judgmental, is to stay say to yourself, thank you, I hear you, I don’t feel this business you helpful right now. But thank you for pointing this out to me. AW: So one way to think about it is that you don’t want to judge the judger AM: Exactly. And more to the point, you don’t want to resist, because we’ve all heard it, what resists persists. And so the more you yell at it, the less likely it is to go away. It could also just be your thought, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this, but not all of our thoughts are worthwhile. And some of them are fake news. Some of them are just thoughts. So you want to be aware of the content and decide for yourself, whether it’s just a passing thought, or whether it’s got energy to it. And then going towards that negative energy, instead of resisting it, looking at it and acknowledging it almost as if it was a part of your brain, like, you know, scared on or anxious on is rearing up her head because she wants to protect me from failure. So in order to do that, she’s going to try and keep me from doing certain things because they’re scary, or they’re exposing or they’re vulnerable. And so in a lot of the things that we do that are not the norm, where we extend ourselves, when we want to change things, our inner critic is going to be very vocal, because essentially back a few millennia, or before that change meant potential death. So I think it’s a, you know, it’s an ancient mechanism to keep us safe. And keeping us safe often keeps us small. So that’s one of the reasons why examining the content of our thoughts and becoming friendly with our inner critic is such an important and worthwhile experiment. AW: I am so glad that I asked you that question. That helps me immensely. So I’d love to shift gears just for a minute before we get to the five rapid fire questions. And I just wanted to point out to the listeners, in case it’s not obvious to them just from listening to you, that you are a Modern Renaissance woman. And I mentioned this to you when we were offline. But you’ve got your meditation and your mindfulness practice, your yoga, your singing, your digital marketing, and you also have a career in luxury branding, which to me is just so fascinating. And I’m wondering, is there a link between luxury brands and mindfulness? AM: I think there is. The brand that I worked out for 17 years is Christian Louboutin, the, you know, red soled king of shoes. AW: Yeah. AM: I think that Christian was always, for me an example of intentionality, at least, towards what he wanted for his company, his teams, his interactions with people, his interactions with his fans, the consistency with which he talked about everything that touched his work, there was always an incredibly clear intention around everything. He always wanted women’s legs to look amazing. So if you ever come to him and complain that you’re not comfortable in his shoes, I think he’ll sleep well at night saying yes, but I made I made your legs look great. So there was a great sense of integrity, about his purpose, I would say there’s a more recognizable sense of purpose and integrity with a number of the luxury brands that I worked closely with, I discovered, not the luxury brands that universally know or see in a big mall. But I worked with a lot of beautiful, amazing small businesses that really work at the top of luxury, but are not necessarily very well known. And these also have a very strong sense of what they stand for. And I think that I see this as a form of mindfulness, if you can remember to treat your clients and your vendors and your staff the same way. AW: I didn’t think that this is where this this question was going to go. But I have to say, I’m thrilled because lately I’ve been obsessing on the topic of personal branding, when you were describing the Christian Louboutin, his vision for his firm, as you said, not the brand, but his firm, and the consistency and clarity through which he communicated the integrity of his intentions, right with all of his stakeholders, so that it was recognizable. This is branding, right? This is personal branding. And then these tokens, i.e. the shoes that he’s creating, in manufacturing, become part of other people’s personal brand, and they signal the integrity and the quality. AM: Absolutely. He was obsessive about it. AW: Wow, that is so cool. What an incredible experience. It sounds like you had working for him. But I have to say, I bet you’re not everybody who was in your shoes, would have been self-aware enough to understand and to perceive that his personal brand was permeating your values. I mean, that’s that’s a pretty heavy layer of self-awareness, I think. AM: Well, that’s very, very good point you’re making. So here’s the thing, I was exposed to him a lot. But also I was his PR for many years. That means I was with him in interviews. And sometimes it was a week of interviews in you know, Dubai, or in Tokyo and Hong Kong, then Shanghai. So, but I want to just add one more story that I think is a huge link to mindfulness for me. Years ago, I had this theory that Christian had a stronger inner voice than other people. I said this out loud to people. And as it turns out, I realized it’s not that he had a stronger inner voice. He just listened to it more. And I think this is something that we can all benefit from being mindful of your own body’s reactions, when you’re not sure about a choice that you want to make. Reading the signals when our minds are clouded. Oftentimes, our bodies can give us a clue as to whether to make left or right or say yes or no. AW: Yeah, they say the body doesn’t lie. AM: Yes, absolutely true. AW: Okay, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? AM: Yes. AW: First question. What are your pet peeves? AM: I don’t like mess. I like a really clean, harmonious, balanced environment. And it’s really funny because if when I was younger, I figured that if I would ever get a tattoo, it would be the word harmony. At the time. It’s because I was a singer and I love harmonies, vocal harmonies. Turns out I actually just like harmonies as a whole and I hate a messy environment. AW: Oh, that may answer the second question, which is, what type of learner are you? Visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? AM: I think of a mix because I want to say that I’m a really big auditory learner. I feel like I retain information so well through sound. But I need my environment to be clean as much as you know clean as possible to be neat or it’s not a freak or an obsessive thing at all. It’s more that it’s like a disturbance at the back of my nervous system. And I won’t retain as much if I don’t feel like the environment is relatively balanced. Does that make sense? AW: That makes a lot of sense. And I think I’m with you on that. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? AM: Haha. “Social introvert.” That confuses a lot of people. AW: Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations? AM: I text – which when you’re in Europe means WhatsApp, mostly WhatsApp and Instagram messaging. One of the things I discovered I really like about texting, particularly around trickier relationships are people that you don’t know what to say to you, or they offer this opportunity to pause naturally. AW: Oh, that’s true. AM: It’s a mechanism that really works for me. AW: Okay. Last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? AM: Lately, I’ve been talking quite a lot about “Deep Work,” the podcast by Cal Newport, who also had a book called Deep Work. Another one I really, really like is the “Being Well” podcast by Rick and Forrest Hanson. So Rick Hansen is actually a PhD in neurophysiology, if I’m correct. And he was one of the teachers who guest teachers in my course. And he came to talk to us about neuroplasticity. And I’m a geek, I loved it. The last one is, it’s always good, but she’s also just like the best interviewer ever. It’s Debbie Millman. “Design Matters” by Debbie Millman. I just I think she’s amazing. AW: Okay, well, I will put links to all of those in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and all of your insights. And I can tell you, I’m really inspired to be more mindful and to approach so many aspects of my life including communication but beyond that with intention. Thank you so much, Anne. AM: Thank you, it was such a pleasure to talk to you, as always.   THANKS for READING – and Talk soon!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   The post #74 MINDFULNESS Practicing our Communication Skills with Anne Muhlethaler appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea shares what the research says about interruptions, how to respond to being interrupted, and advice for how you can effectively interrupt. Resources Sally Farley “Nonverbal Reactions to Conversational Interruptions” (2010) Connect with Andrea & Talk About Talk: Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn: Andrea and TalkAboutTalk Weekly Communication Skills Newsletter: https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup YouTube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPT Wow. Do […] The post #128 Interruptions appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you suffer from IMPOSTER SYNDROME? Most of us do! Learn exactly what imposter syndrome is, how to avoid or alleviate imposter syndrome, and some good news: how the discourse (talk) about imposter syndrome has evolved. RESOURCES   IMPOSTER SYNDROME “The 4 Ps of Preparing to Communicate with Confidence” Talk About Talk podcast episode #59 – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/58-communicate-with-confidence-mental-preparation/ “The ABCDEs of Communicating with Confidence in the Moment” Talk About Talk podcast episode #59 – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/59-communicate-with-confidence-in-the-moment/ Natalie Portman’s commencement speech – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDaZu_KEMCY Psychologists Clance & Imes research – https://www.paulineroseclance.com/pdf/ip_high_achieving_women.pdf EVERYONE suffers from imposter syndrome! – https://hbr.org/2016/07/everyone-suffers-from-imposter-syndrome-heres-how-to-handle-it Changing toxic work environments – https://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome. “Confidence doesn’t equal competence.” – https://hbr.org/2013/08/why-do-so-many-incompetent-men Men including Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz – https://hbr.org/2013/08/why-do-so-many-incompetent-men Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – [email protected] Free 20minconsult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ THANKS for READING – and Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected] ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #83 Let’s Talk IMPOSTER SYNDROME appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Introvert or extrovert – which one are you?  Learn 3 common misconceptions about the introvert/extrovert scale and how to leverage this personality dimension to help you manage your energy and your relationships with others. RESOURCES   Introvert vs Extrovert INC magazine – https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/are-you-shy-or-introverted-science-says-this-is-1-primary-difference.html Forbes – https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffboss/2015/09/10/6-facts-you-should-know-about-introverts-that-have-significant-leadership-implications/#390621e2182d FastCompany – https://www.fastcompany.com/90232763/5-things-youre-getting-wrong-about-extroverts “QUIET: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking” by Susan Cain https://amzn.to/3hlu7Rt Personality tests Myers-Briggs MBTI – http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/extraversion-or-introversion.htm?bhcp=1 personality test: https://d3jc3ahdjad7x7.cloudfront.net/spokaLTFBEADL9JnMd7njgJd96nyp7YNgICG2tlJWifcI7GP.pdf wiki page: extraversion/introversion Big 5 Personality Test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – [email protected] Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Profanity (clean version) – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/23s2-clean-profanity-talking-taboo-with-linguistics-professor-darin-flynn/ Profanity (explicit version) – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/23s2-explicit-profanity-talking-taboo-with-linguistics-professor-darin-flynn/ THANKS for READING – and Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected] ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #82 Am I an INTROVERT or an EXTROVERT? appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Taboo topics are sacred or prohibited based on morals, religion or social norms. Learn how to respond to taboo topics and the significance of context when it comes to taboos. What’s considered taboo depends on the time in history, the generation, the person, the setting, even the medium. People seem to feel more comfortable reading or listening and less comfortable talking about taboos!   TABOO SUMMARY   DEFINITION of TABOO Taboo topics are “unacceptable,” “prohibited,” “disallowed,” and/or “forbidden.” Taboos are words or behaviours that are sacred or prohibited based on morals, religion, or norms. CONTEXT IS KEY FOR TABOOS What’s considered taboo depends on the time in history, the generation, the person, the setting, even the medium. Time in history: Consider how racism evolved from being a taboo topic altogether, to being something that is commonly and explicitly discussed. (Other previously taboo topics: living together or having a child outside of marriage, phone calls after 9pm, girls wearing pants, tattoos, sexuality and particularly LGBTQ+,…) Generations & people: Consider what’s sacred to talk to our kids about vs what’s sacred in conversations with our parents. The setting: Consider what’s sacred to talk about at work versus what’s sacred in conversations at the dinner table. The medium: We might feel more comfortable reading or listening, and less comfortable talking about taboos 20 COMMONLY REFERENCED TABOO TOPICS ABORTION BODILY FUNCTIONS & EXCREMENT CANNIBALISM CO-WORKERS DEATH & DYING FOREIGN POLICY GOSSIP INCEST JOB-CHANGING MARITAL ISSUES MEDICAL/HEALTH PROBLEMS MENTAL HEALTH MONEY PROFANITY POLITICS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS SALARIES SEX & SEXUALITY SOMEONE ELSE’S SPOUSE SUICIDE 4 RESPONSES TO TABOO TOPICS Smile and nod… Call it out Listen and learn Change the subject! RESOURCES   Talk About Talk Podcast Episodes on Taboo Topics Profanity (clean version) – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/23s2-clean-profanity-talking-taboo-with-linguistics-professor-darin-flynn/ Profanity (explicit version) – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/23s2-explicit-profanity-talking-taboo-with-linguistics-professor-darin-flynn/ Personal Branding, Authenticity & TMI (taboo topics across the generations) – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/71-personal-branding-authenticity-tmi/ Youth Mental Health – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/36-youth-mental-health/ Money – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/35-money/ Death & Grieving – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/19s2-supporting-our-grieving-friends-with-psychotherapist-grief-counsellor-andrea-warnick/ Talking to Your Doctor – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/20s2-talking-to-your-doctor-with-north-york-general-hospital-ceo-dr-joshua-tepper/ Other Taboo References Taboo Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo Changing taboo topics: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/social-taboos-_n_5564560 Taboo topics – at work: https://resumeperk.com/blog/top-taboo-topics-you-should-never-discuss-with-colleagues Taboo topics – world: https://resumeperk.com/blog/top-taboo-topics-you-should-never-discuss-with-colleagues Taboo topics – Canada: https://thecanadaguide.com/culture/manners-and-etiquette/ Talking Racism: https://gtr.ukri.org/projects?ref=AH%2FR005362%2F1 https://www.learningforjustice.org/classroom-resources/lessons/talking-about-race-and-racism https://healthier.stanfordchildrens.org/en/discussing-racism/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/3097072?seq=1 Talking sexuality: https://ok2bme.ca/resources/kids-teens/what-does-lgbtq-mean/ Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – [email protected] Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ TRANSCRIPT   Can you guess what the most common communication-related topic is that I get questions about from Talk About Talk listeners? This is kind of a trick Q, since this is the TALKING TABOO episode.  But No, it’s not taboo topics. It’s confidence! I guess that’s not surprising. People are keen to learn tips to help them elevate their confidence.  They want to learn how to get rid of the jitters and appear more confident and credible.  But here’s the interesting thing. When I check traffic to the talkabouttalk.com website – there’s a different story. According to Google Analytics, the number one page on the talkabouttalk.com website for organic hits – that’s where people are most likely to land when they come to the talk about talk website? It’s a page called TALKING TABOOS. It’s a link to a newsletter I wrote just over 2 years ago, focusing on taboo topics. Obviously Taboo topics are something that people want to read about. They want to learn about taboo topics. But nobody ever asks me about taboo topics. But they don’t really seem to want to talk about taboo topics. Well, that’s exactly what we’re going to do today. We’re going to talk about taboo topics. Greetings and welcome to Talk About Talk. I’m your communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (please call me Andrea!). Whether you’re an ambitious executive, looking to catapult your career by improving your communication skills, or maybe you’re a podcaster?  Either way, if you have a strong growth mindset – you’re always looking to learn and improve your communication skills, then  you’re in the right place.  At Talk About Talk, we focus on communication-skills-topics like personal branding, listening confidence, and storytelling. This is the critically important stuff they don’t teach you in school. It’s what takes you from a B+ to an A+ in whatever it is you do.  And if you check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find online corporate training, 1-on-1 coaching with me, online courses, the free weekly communication-skills newsletter, and, of course, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast. I really hope you’ll go to the website and sign up for the free weekly communication skills training newsletter. But you can choose what works for you! Welcome to Talk About Talk episode number 81!  In this episode! In this episode, we talk all about taboo topics. As in what is taboo, how taboo topics change over time and across contexts, what topics are considered taboo and why, And perhaps most importantly, for our context of thinking about communicating effectively at work… We’re going to talk about what to do when people start talking taboo at work. Yes! It happens. And we have to deal with it. You’re going to learn how. OK – let’s get into this. As always, you don’t need to take notes, because I do that for you. I simplify and summarize everything for you at the end of the episode And you can always access the episode shownotes on the talkabouttalk.com website. So just keep doing whatever you’re doing – driving or walking or housework, or whatever. Let’s start with the basics. What is taboo? And what is it about taboo topics that makes them so… alluring? So enticing? Why is that the Talking Taboos page is the number one hit on the TalkAboutTalk website? The word TABOO comes from the Tongan TAPU, the Fijian TABU, or the Polynesian TABU, (spelled TABU) and it translates to “unacceptable,” “prohibited,” “disallowed,” and/or “forbidden.” Taboos are words or behaviours that are sacred or prohibited based on morals, religion, or norms. Sacred or prohibited. Got that? And based on moral or religious grounds. Or norms. Of course, we have morals. Morals that guide us in our behaviors. And yes, morals that guide our words. And certainly, there are religious principles that guide different groups in terms of what is acceptable to do and to say – and what is not. Then there’s also norms. Norms and mores vary by group, by person, by context.  Perhaps that’s in part why taboo topics are so provocative. They reveal differences between groups and between individuals.  Sometimes critically important differences. This definition of taboo means that what we consider to be a taboo topic varies across countries, across religions, across cultures, and over time.  So, what is taboo in one context may be completely acceptable in another.  Context is HUGE when it comes to taboo topics. Context cannot be overemphasized here. Consider for example how different generational cohorts talk about – and don’t talk about – certain taboo topics. As Tom Megginson so eloquently stated in episode #71 focused on Personal Branding, Authenticity & TMI – too much information –  we code-switch across generations. We talk differently to our grandparents than we do to our kids.  Not just because of their age, but also because of their generational cohort.  The NORMS that are established for that generation. And of course, those norms include the definitions of what’s taboo. If there’s any question about this, consider this list of 9 socially acceptable things that used to be taboo. Are you ready? Visible bra straps Girls making the first move Living together or having a child outside of marriage Keeping your maiden name Asking a lady’s age Phone calls after 9pm Girls wearing pants Tattoos And, of course, there’s referencing, never mind being anything other than straight, heterosexual. There wasn’t even a word for that.  Now it’s LGBTQ+, and the term is referenced all the time. Consider the Silent Generation. Interesting label, right? Their our grandparents, the ones born in about 1925-45, they’re called The Silent Generation, in part because they were born during the depression and wartime.  But that generation can also be defined in terms of resistance to talking about many taboo topics, right?  Think about it – they’re actually called the silent generation.! Fast forward through the cooler but conformist Baby Boomers (they’re the ones that started talking about sex, right?),  then the cynical Gen X’rs, the protected Millennials, and now the inspiration- and validation-seeking Gen Zs. And it’s these younger Millennials and Gen Z’s who are calling people out (even CANCELLING people!) for violating norms around taboos. For previous generations, talking about racism or sexism may have been taboo.  Now, being racist or sexist is taboo, and if you violate that norm, you stand a chance of getting cancelled.  Wow. The younger generations are encouraging us to talk openly about other critical, previously taboo topics, beyond racism and sexism, such as mental health, money, menstruation, death and dying, and more. SO what topics ARE considered taboo? I did a little research for us. I created an alphabetical list of 20 taboo topics, according to several sources that I checked – including published lists of taboo topics in Canada ??, around the world ?, and at work ?:.  This list is by no means complete, but it’s an interesting reference of 20 common taboo topics. Alphabetically, then We start with A, which of course is ABORTION BODILY FUNCTIONS & EXCREMENT CANNIBALISM CO-WORKERS (this could be anything from gossip to harassment and everything in between. We’re not supposed to talk about the person whom we may be competing against for a promotion!) DEATH & DYING FOREIGN POLICY GOSSIP INCEST JOB-CHANGING MARITAL ISSUES  MEDICAL/HEALTH PROBLEMS MENTAL HEALTH MONEY PROFANITY  POLITICS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS SALARIES SEX & SEXUALITY Anyone’s SPOUSE SUICIDE I’ll include this list along with some of the resources for where I found these topics in the shownotes, if you’re interested. This is a pretty diverse list.  Everything from excrement to money to spouses.  Wow.  But the topics on this list all have some things in common.  All these topics are things that some people may have strong opinions about.  Not surprising, remember in the definition, I highlighted that taboo topics are grounded in moral, religious beliefs of norms?  People definitely feel strongly about these things. And all these topics are things that people can get offended about.  Whether it’s the topic in general, or a certain stance, people can get offended. When I look at this list of taboo topics, I think about stand up comedy.  You probably don’t know this about me, but I’m a huge fan of stand up.  I admire comedians.  They’re clever! And I love thinking about how they create their schticks too. How they decide what to talk about.  But here’s the thing, much of the low-hanging fruit for stand-up comedians comes from this list of taboo topics.  How many times have you heard comedians talking about poop? Or marital issues? Or sex?  And of course, they like to shock us with profanity. When I look at this list, I also think about “click-bait”. Right? There’s gossip. There’s money, there’s profanity.  Again, these are the things that people might want to read about.  Whether they want to talk about them openly is another question.  Of course some people do, in social media, for example.  But it can be polarizing, and therefore risky. Many these topics are also things that the younger, more recently generations seem to be encouraging us to talk about more.  There are relationship-related topics, health-related topics, or work-related topics here for example, where people are encouraging dialogue. Healthy dialogue. There’s one clear exception to this though, and that’s the topic of POLITICS. While many of these other topics are being encouraged, the topic of politics has seen a resurgence in terms of its taboo status.  Of course, that’s due to the extreme divisiveness, the bi-polar nature of our politics these days.  You’re either red, conservative, and republican, or you’re blue, progressive/liberal, and democrat.  There’s no in-between, and there’s certainly no discussion. At least not in polite company, am I right? Such a shame. Speaking pf polite company… let me talk about Profanity.  Profanity is on that list. I had the privilege of interviewing am amazing linguist who teaches a university course on rap lyrics, Professor Darin Flynn.  I’ll leave a link to that episode in the shownotes, I was a bit nervous about this episode. When I mentioned that I was planning this interview to a few respected friends and colleagues, I heard two distinct responses: “AWESOME!  Can’t wait to hear it and learn about profanity!” “YIKES!  Really?  You’re going to edit the swears out, right?” So, do you know what I did?  I released two versions of that episode – one unedited, with all the swears, and one edited, the PG version.  Lots of bleeps.  And lots of thanks to my sound production engineer, also my brother, Brian Campbell for that one.  Gawd bless him. That was a crazy episode to edit! Anyway, I learned so much in that interview with Professor Darin Flinn.  For example, Darin shared that there are personality differences between people who swear and those who don’t. Research shows that sweariness (I ❤️ that word) is correlated with extroversion, with riskiness, with dominance, with being disagreeable and non-conformity….  So if you swear more, you’re more likely to be an extrovert, risk-seeking, dominant, disagreeable and non-conformist. I’m thinking those traits are also consistent with people who may generally question or violate other taboos too.  Think about it.  If you’re someone who violates taboos, you might be more likely to be an extrovert, risk-seeking, dominant, disagreeable and non-conformist.  Makes sense. Hmm. My favourite point from that whole podcast was  Darin’s point that these days, the most profane, the most offensive words in the English language are the ones that are derogatory to minorities.  In fact, those are the profanities that Darin himself refuses to say. If you listen to the unedited version of that Profanity podcast, you’ll hear us – swearing – like truck-drivers, as they say.  But Darin refuses to ever say the N-word.  And he points out that we should feel optimistic that we live in a society where the worst possible things you can say, the most profane, taboo expressions, are derogatory towards minorities?  I love that. ❤️ And here we are, by the way, now we’re talking about two taboo topics – profanity and racism.  It’s a double whammy. Alright, so we’ve already covered a lot here. We’ve defined taboo, we’ve covered how taboo topics vary across contexts (across groups and over time), and we’ve listed and covered various taboo topics. What about advice on what to do when taboo topics comes up? Say you’re at work and someone says something about a taboo topic in a meeting?  Or you’re at a dinner party and someone starts talking taboo? You know that awkward silence? When everyone stops dead in their tracks? Or maybe everyone in the room pauses except that one person who’s rambling on about gossip or sex or someone’s spouse – whatever the taboo topic is.  Whatever the context and whatever the topic, you noticed people’s response, and you realize a taboo-topic has been broached.  What can you say or do? Here are four suggestions: Smile and nod… Call it out. As my teenage son does so well, He exclaims, “AWWWWk-ward !!!”Ask, “is everyone is ok talking about this?”  Talk about the fact that it is taboo, as opposed to talking about the taboo topic itself This is a great way to diffuse things. Listen. If the conversation is going full-tilt and no one seems to want to change the subject, play a game with yourself.   Challenge yourself to fully understand others’ perspectives.  Keep it objective.  Ask Qs. Change the subject – Be the catalyst who changes the subject! Talk about this podcast! (Hey, that reminds me, I just listened to this great podcast episode on Taboo topics. Th podcast is called Talk About Talk.  They talked about what to do when taboo topics are broached in conversation…”   I have to tell you a quick story to illustrate some of these techniques.  On November 9, 2016, my family was on a short vacation. (Yes,  the date is relevant.  I bet you too can think of where you were on that date!) Anyway, we were on vacation and  our hotel hosted a party in their ballroom with big screens playing the results of the U.S. election. One of my kids dressed up as Donald J. Trump – his Halloween costume from the week before.  People thought this was hilarious. He was even interviewed on TV by a local newscaster! A woman I met at the party started engaging with me in SMALL TALK, asking where we were from and all about my kids.  She even asked for a photo with my son. I said, “Sure! My son’s been imitating Trump and all his shenanigans since Halloween!”  She stopped dead in her tracks, a look of horror and shock on her face.  “Wait, what?!?  You guys aren’t Trump fans?” Oopf. I crossed the line.  Yes, it was a political party, but political affiliations are a taboo topic, remember?  And guess what?  I offended her. So, what did I do?  Let’s review my options: Smile and nod… Call it out. Listen and take it as a learning opportunity changes the subject! Can you guess what I did?  I went straight for options 1 and 4.  I smiled and nodded, and then I changed the subject. I vividly remember looking her in the eye and slowly nodding my head.  Then I said, ”So where did you say you were from again?”  In retrospect, I wish I was a fly on the wall and I could see my own facial expression when I realized she was a Trump fan and thought my son was too.  So I encourage you to memorize and then depending on the context, strategically choose which response is ideal when someone around you brings up a taboo topic.  And of course don’t just think about yourself, think about others in the room too.  Then deice whether you should Smile and nod… Call it out.  Listen and take it as a learning opportunity change the subject!  And that’s it. That’s it for our talk about taboo topics. We covered lots here, in a short time. We covered the definition of taboo. The term taboo is derived from “unacceptable,” “prohibited,” “disallowed,” and/or “forbidden.” Taboos are words or behaviours that are sacred or prohibited based on morals, religion, or norms. We also covered how what is considered taboo varies significantly by context.  Context is key! What’s considered taboo – and why – depends on the time in history, the generation, the people, and the situational context. There’s time-based context. Consider the list of things that used to be taboo – that are no longer. Remember when the topic of racism used to be taboo?  Now we talk about racism ALL  THE TIME! So yes, taboos change overtime. There’s people and generational-based context. Consider what’s sacred to talk to our kids about vs what’s sacred in conversations with our parents.  Hmm. There’s situational-based context. Consider what’s sacred to talk about at work versus what’s sacred in conversations at the dinner table. There’s also what we might feel comfortable reading about (or listening about, as youre doing right now), which might be different than what we’re comfortable talking about. Isnt that interesting? So clearly context is key. Context is critical when it comes to talking about taboo topics. I also shared a list of 20 topics that are considered taboo and I noted how these are frequently referenced in stand-up, perhaps for shock value. And also how these 20 topics are frequently used as click bait. It’s fascinating to me that people generally seem to want to read about taboo topics, but not talk about them. And last, perhaps most importantly for our context with Talk About Talk and our communication skills, I shared 4 responses that we can all consider when taboo topics are raised.  Considering the impact on not just ourselves, we can choose to: Smile and nod… Call it out.  Listen and take it as a learning opportunity change the subject!  Alright that’s it! Again, you can find a printable version of this episode including a summary, the transcript, plus a list of storytelling resources all in the shownotes. Just go to the talkabouttalk.com website, click on PODCAST and SHOWNOTES. While you’re there, I really hope you’ll sign up for the Talk About Talk newsletter, if you’re not already! This is your chance to get free communication skills coaching from me every week in a simple to digest email. I promise no spam and no more than one per week. Just go to talk abouttalk.com to sign up or email me directly and I’ll add you to the list. You can email me anytime at [email protected]. I love hearing from you. Let me know if you wanna talk more about taboo topics. Thanks for listening. And talk soon! THANKS for READING – and Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected] ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. 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Podcaster Dave Jackson shares general communication insights for all of us, plus specific advice for podcasters, including the most common mistakes that podcasters make, the ideal length for a podcast, and how to refer to the listeners…   RESOURCES   Podcaster Dave Jackson & The School of Podcasting Profit From Your Podcast book – https://amzn.to/35wIWKf Website: schoolofpodcasting.com Twitter: twitter.com/davejackson Facebook: facebook.com/schoolofpodcasting Instagram: instagram.com/schoolofpodcasting LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davejackson/ School of Podcasting episode with Andrea focused on Personal Branding Other References    Beyond Powerful Radio by Valerie Geller: https://amzn.to/3cPcNBH Make Noise by Eric Nuzum: https://amzn.to/3xtcqEB WE Have Cancer podcast with Lee Silverstein – https://wehavecancershow.com/ Talk About Talk CONFIDENCE episode #58 Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – [email protected] Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT   Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you, Dave, so much for joining us here to talk about communication skills and what you’ve learned from podcasting. Dave Jackson: Oh, thanks for having me, I’m looking forward to this. AW: Alright, let’s start with what you see as the most common mistakes that podcasters make in terms of their communication. So we’re talking about the basics here. What do you see novice podcasters doing wrong in terms of their communication? DJ: A lot of times, it’ll be an interview, or you’ll have I always call it, you know, three guys in the basement talking about booze or whatever. But the problem is, is the curse of knowledge. And this is where Ernie and Bert know a whole bunch about each other. And they’re all talking about remember that thing with the orange Gatorade, and then the other guys like, hahaha and nobody has a clue what you’re talking about. But they’re having a great time. And I’m like, Look, if you want to have fun in the basement, talk to your friend, by all means, but just don’t look at me and go, Why is my show not growing? And like because nobody knows what you’re talking about. I had one last night where I made it two minutes in before I finally said, That’s enough. And they said something about like, are you Brazilian? And he said no, I’m not Brazilian. And they both just broke out laughing and I’m like, I have no idea why that’s funny. But they can say Oh, dude, the Brazilian thing? Are you kidding me? And I’m like, Yeah, see you, you don’t realize that there’s a whole other group of people out here that don’t know about the Brazilian thing. And they just did two minutes of non stop inside jokes. And I was just like, yeah, that’s, that’s not gonna work. AW: Well, so I’m thinking that maybe if it was Episode 100, and you had a massive following, And you audience shared your inside jokes that might be different, right? DJ: Yeah, yeah, it can be realized, you’re still gonna, there’s always going to be new people that haven’t heard your show. And there, you kind of have your own little inside jokes. There’s a famous radio sports guy that has a whole other lingo with his audience. And that’s kind of half the fun when you first join, you’re kind of asking yourself, like, what does he mean by that? And so you’re kind of intrigued, like, What? What does he mean, a clone, what’s a clone? You know, and you go on and on. So that kind of pulls you into, you’re like, wait, I want to be on the inside, you have this weird fear of missing out going on. But a lot of times, it’s you know, you still have to have some things that I understand, to make me want to get the missing piece of the puzzle. But if they’re just no puzzle pieces, just clueless I’m just I’m clueless on what’s going on, then. Yeah, that’s not gonna work. AW: Yeah, so one of my pet peeves. You know, when I was, I would say, especially when I used to work in strategic brand management, and people, we would be putting forth a brand strategy. And it would end up being about the brand instead of being about the consumer. And so I’m thinking about this, what you just said in that context, it’s like, when podcasters are so myopic, they’re thinking about themselves. They’re not thinking about their audience, right? And, I see people doing it in meetings. I hear people just like you do talking like that when they’re on podcasts. I hear people doing that when they’re interviewing other people, like you’re trying to get information from someone, but you’re talking about yourself the whole time. Give me a break. So I am with you. That is one of my pet peeves. But that leads me to my second question. What are your pet peeves when you’re listening to podcasts? DJ: Well, that’s probably the first one, just you know, I’m I never remember once my backgrounds in teaching. So I find this podcast and it’s made for people that teach computers and I’m like, that is like a glove on my hand. And number one, it was horrible audio quality. And I think I lasted. I want to say it was something ridiculous, like, I remember seven. So it was either seven minutes or 17, I just remember was an insane amount. And the whole time, he’s just complaining about Bob Seger. And I just was like, and I just kept listening, thinking, well, surely, he’s going to quit talking about Bob Seger and get to the teaching, and I just eventually, I just was like, Okay, well, that’s, that’s enough of that. And I just got out. So that’s, that’s kind of a combo of both of them not getting to the point. And then really bad audio quality, where, you know, in 2005, when I started, people, were using this little stick microphone that came with your computer, and you could get away with that in 2005, but not now. And people love to, they’ll think you can record your podcast on a phone. And for the record, you can it just doesn’t sound any good. And they’ll put it on. speakerphone? And they’ll put it in the middle and you have four people around a table. And it sounds like you’re, you know, in the Lincoln Tunnel recording a podcast and yes, like, that’s just not gonna, gonna work. AW: It sounds like exactly what it is. DJ: Yeah. AW: I’m with you on those two. But back to your point about getting to the point. I’ve had this conversation with other people in in several contexts, and I’ve been called out on it, you know, early in my career when I was giving a talk one of my first academic talks. One of the professor’s stood up in the back of the room after about 10 minutes and yelled, Andrea, what is your point? And I was like I’m getting there. No. NOW. So, so how quickly in a podcast episode, should we be telling the audience what the main point is or what the key learning is? DJ: Somewhere in the first two minutes, you’re either going to get to the point or you’re going to tease the point one of the two. Because otherwise, you know, the fun little bumper sticker for this is, people don’t get on a bus unless they know where it’s going. And you are really asking them for their most prized possession. And that’s their time. And there’s nothing worse than when I listened to 13 minutes of a podcast and realize 13 minutes in, I’m getting nothing here and go up. There’s 13 minutes, I can’t get back. Let’s move on to the next one. So I think that’s one of the reasons you need to. And I see a lot of times that people forget, like right now you could probably get away with not even reading my bio, because people trust you, like Andrew is not going to bring on somebody who stinks. So when we I remember once I listened to an episode, and the person had just read their LinkedIn page, and it was like extremely, like, wow, just decorated person, and which isn’t horrible. But at the end of it, they said, Did I miss anything? And I was like, Are you kidding me? That’s your first question. So, if I have somebody on with a really long bio, what I like to do is explain why they’re on the show. When it comes to getting to the point, I always say Exhibit A is Netflix. If you ever watch a TV show on Netflix, at the end, there’s a button that says skip credits, which means skip the end. And when you click on that, it goes to the next episode, and skips the intro. And I’m like, so if you need more proof that people like to get to the point I give to you exhibit A Netflix so AW: beautiful. I love that analogy. It’s totally relevant. I also love your metaphor about you’re not going to get on the bus unless you know where it’s headed. That is an very eloquent way of saying, respect your consumer respect your listener. DJ: Yeah, absolutely. if you if you don’t deliver value, if you don’t know who your audience is, eventually, the people that are tuning in are going to go, I’m not getting anything out of this. And there’s only I don’t know, another 2 million podcasts to choose from, I guess all check out something else. AW: Very, very well put Dave and I have this I have to confess something to you. I’ve listened to enough of your School of Podcasting episodes that I actually would have guessed that your answer to the pet peeve question would be when people start by saying, tell me a bit about yourself. DJ: Oh, that’s true. AW: Yeah, I was gonna mess with you and actually say okay, we’re here with Dave Jackson, Dave tell us about yourself. DJ: Well, what I love about that is somebody because to me that just screams Hi, I didn’t do my homework, and I really don’t know who you are. But you have a pulse and you agreed to come on my show. So tell me a little bit about yourself. And at that point, I could say, well, I was born in Akron, Ohio, I was a paper boy at the age of 13. My dad’s name is john, I’m, you know, like, whereas if somebody goes, Hey, Dave, when did you When did you know you want to be a podcaster? Okay, number one, now we’re leading into a story versus Hey, can you go read your LinkedIn bio to me? So Right, right. Yeah, that’s always fun. DJ: That would have been fun, though. But I would have laughed. AW: You know, recently, I’ve been on a couple of other podcasts being interviewed by people that are quite professional. And it always shocks me when they say, why don’t you start by telling the audience a little bit about yourself? And I’m like, do they want to hear about my marketing background? Do they want to hear about me as a communication coach? Do they want to hear about my podcast, you know, and so I try to make it as short as possible so we can get to the meat of it. Which brings me to another question that I’m curious that I think to be honest, is relevant beyond the context of podcasting. So it’s, whether you’re conducting an online workshop, whether you’re running a meeting, whatever you’re doing, where there’s an audience, I feel like there’s some things that you have to get out of the way to really excel. Right? So one of them we’ve talked about, which is, we need to tell them what we’re going to tell them Give them the punch line, so they know why they’re sitting around and listening to us or watching us or participating. Are there other things that you try to get out of the way at the beginning? Because you know, what’s going to make it a great episode? DJ: Well, I try to answer the question, why should we listen to this guy? Because again, there’s so many people listening, and this is a hard one to do, because you sound like you’re really full of yourself. But if you can somehow answer the question, why should so that’s why we start off podcasting since 2005. I’m your award winning all the fame podcast coach. Yeah, that’s a mouthful. Dave Jackson. And the reason I say that is A, how many people can say they’ve been podcasting since 2005? Yeah, one, I’ve won a couple awards, and I’m in the Hall of Fame. And I was like, Well, I guess I should probably say that, you know, it’s one of the things and I have had people friends of mine that say, you don’t realize you’re Dave Jackson, I go, what does that even mean? And they’re like, Oh, just you know. So I throw that out at the front to kind of say, Well, here’s, you know, here’s why I think you should listen to me kind of thing. Because the good news is anybody can start a podcast, the bad news is, anybody can broadcast. So you kind of have to answer that question a little bit of like, why should I listen to you? AW: So you know, Dave, I think you’re a natural marketer, although, although you haven’t doing it since 2005. So it’s only taken you 16 is it? You’re a fast learner (haha) No, but what I was gonna say is you’re establishing the reason why, which is in a, in a brand positioning statement is your consumer benefit, and then you’re providing the evidence. So why am I listening to Dave about this? Or why am I listening to Andrea about this? I absolutely agree. So you’ve been doing this since 2005? How would you describe your evolution in terms of your personal communication skills, not just what you’ve seen other people doing? DJ: it’s funny. My I just recently listened to my very first podcast, so I could just cringe all over again. Because I just recently just went over 16 years, and I started off my very first thing out of my mouth was, Hey, everybody. And I was like, Well, if I was coaching myself would be like, nope, if you’re doing the solo show, talk to one person, don’t talk to everybody because, because there’s nobody else in the car typically. So that’s one, I edit myself now, where back then it’s Oh, I’m telling you so cringe worthy. And I’m just I’m, I’m over and over and over. And I was like, the, I used to just riff off the top my head, I had my little mental bullet points, which does not work for me. I’m way too ADT to, to do that. And so I finally started writing down my bullet points. I’m not reading it I, to me, that just doesn’t work for me. But as I’m kind of, you know, riffing on it, and that whole nine yards, a lot of times, I will come up still with one more thing, but now I’m doing it as I’m recording it. Because it’s really the second time I’m going through it. So Ah, that’s probably the biggest thing that’s changed. And the other thing was when I first started, because everybody in their brother found some study that said, the average commute in America is 20 minutes. So we all agree that every podcast should be 20 minutes. And I went to my first event. And it was interesting, because I met people that actually listen to my show. And I would say, Oh, great, thank you so much for listening. And I’m like, What can I do to make it better? And I had three people say, Oh, that’s easy. It needs to be longer. Like I have a longer commute. AW: Wow. DJ: And I was like, that’s a lot of Dave. I’m like, Are you sure? They’re like, yep. I’m not diehard, on the length, I kind of like, here’s what I’m talking about. And I talk about it, and I look up and I’m like, Alright, 37 minutes, that’s good. And then the next week, it’ll be 28. And I’m like, I’ve never had really anybody complain, On occasion, I will let people know say, Hey, we’re gonna go long today, because I got a lot to talk about on this one. But I’ve never really had anybody say, Well, you know, Quit making them so long or Quit making them so short. AW: So to your point about the length of them, I think I’ve heard you say in a few of your episodes that you get asked this question all the time. And your general answer is to keep it as short as possible, so that every minute is as rich as possible, again, or the audience, right? DJ: Absolutely. I did an episode once on interviews, because I get asked about interviews all the time. So I said it was about how to be interviewed. Well, first, it was about how to conduct an interview, how to find guests, and then how to be interviewed. And so what ended up being I think, an hour and 10 minutes, which I think is my longest one ever. And I didn’t have anybody complain. In fact, I had somebody say, that was such a good episode, I had to pull over and take notes. AW: NICE. DJ: Valerie Geller has a book called Beyond Powerful Radio. And I love her quote, and that is there is no such thing as too long, only too boring. So yeah, I always try to make it as short as I can. Again, I don’t want people fast forwarding through stuff. Because it’s one of the things where people go, Well, there’s always a fast forward button. I’m like, Well, if it’s not, like if they don’t need it, they can fast forward then why is it in the podcast in the first place? AW: I think a lot of people get sloppy … they’re not sloppy, lazy. They’re being lazy and not editing in it. DJ: When I when I hear somebody say I’m going to keep it real. I’m not going to edit the mic. So let me get this straight there. There are movie editors. There’s TV editors, there’s magazine editors, magazine editors. Yeah, but everything out of your mouth is just gold. And I was like, I have a weird rule. And it’s just a weird thing that I do. If I do an interview, I am going to remove one question. I don’t know which one it is, but I’m gonna listen. And eventually I was like, You know what, that’s the one that either doesn’t deliver any value, or delivers the least amount or maybe I went on a tangent or something like that. And I just to me, I then say okay, well, what’s left is the good stuff. AW: I think that is gold. Dave, I really think that’s gold. I’m trying to do that myself even with my newsletter because I know that my newsletter can tend to be a little bit wordy. And so now I’m writing it out. And then I pull a section. And I’m like, save that for another newsletter. DJ: Yah, I just try to keep them short is to the point and anything that’s really weird I throw at the very end, I started putting bloopers at the end of my show. And that was another weird when I just, I guess I’m not afraid to experiment at times. And so I put some bloopers at the end. So many people said, I’m so glad you did that. And they go, why they said, I just thought you were perfect. And I was like, Oh, are you kidding me? No, far from it AW: sounds awesome. It’s fun, too. It’s really fun. Yeah. So as you’re going through this list of things, other than going back to edit what you’ve recorded, I’m thinking that all of the things you’re talking about, so not typing out your whole script, and not winging it, but having the bullet points and talking to one person as opposed to you guys or you all, I think these communication insights or tactics are really relevant beyond podcasting, and I’m imagining you now up on stage at PodFest, or, you know, some big conference, and you’re giving a speech, how’s it different or the same when you’re onstage? DJ: onstage, I miss being onstage with our good friend COVID. And I used to be a teacher, so I had a classroom, and I like to make people react in one way or another, whether it’s, I love to make people laugh. So if I can make them laugh, that’s kind of fun. So just the, the smile or the face of Did he just say that, or whatever it is, is fun. And the fact that you just it’s like adding another – it’s the difference between reading a book and hearing a book. Right, I now I still have tone of voice and I can, I can do — a dramatic pause if I want to. But now I can wave my arms. And I can do all sorts of stuff. And, you know, just ways to keep their attention. I remember once I was at Podcast Movement, and they have these, it looks like somebody just tied a bunch of tables together to make a stage. And I was explaining about how you are the goalie. And if somebody tries, you know, to give you content for your audience, it’s your goal to to jump up and SWAT and say not in my house. And I jumped up on the stage. And I’m not a small guy, but I’m not a huge guy. But it made a big old sound in the stage about crumbled, and I was like, okay, Note to self next time, you might want to, you know, do a quick once over… But on the other hand, it got everybody’s attention, which you need to because as you’re doing something on stage, my whole goal is I don’t want to see people looking at their phone. Because I know they’re gonna it’s hard not to. So I just tried to do that. And I walk around, and I pointed people, and I’m just, you know, for me the worst is when I walk in, and they go, okay, you’ll be talking there. And there’s the podium, and I’m like, Oh, great. Is there a wireless microphone? They’re like, no, but there’s a mic at the podium. And I’m like, so I have to stand at the podium. And they’re like, Yeah, and it’s just like, now I’m melting again. AW: Oh, wow. So do you ever feel nervous? DJ: Yes, it’s what’s what’s really funny about it, I mean, again, I i’ve, I used to teach classes every day. And it was, you know, to 20 people or whatever, you can actually time your watch by this now, five minutes before I go on, all the blood will leave my hands. They get super cold, and yet they sweat. It’s a really weird phenomenon. And when that happens, I just go, oh, yep, I got about five minutes. And it’s I’m perfectly fine with it. But I’m like, I’m, this is where I get nervous. But the minute they say please welcome to the stage, Dave Jackson. Then I hear this little voice in my head that just it’s David Lee Roth from one of his solo albums. And he goes, it’s showtime. And off I go. AW: Beautiful, beautiful. You know, in in one of my most downloaded most popular episodes, we talked about communicating with confidence. And especially when you’re working your way up, you’re mentally preparing for a big event and going out on stage and I talk about pirating or borrowing someone else’s confidence. So I choose Madonna, you choose David Lee Roth. DJ: well, and that kind of goes back to my earliest days of really being just – I got fired because I was so shy when I was a 15 year old grocery bagger. And my high school student or a high school teacher say, he goes, You need to be more like your friend Scott. And my friend Scott was like, monkey hour he was just the ultimate extrovert. And I was he might as well said, you know, grow a third arm. And I said, Well, he goes here, here’s what you got to do. And I said, Okay, he goes, just act like you’re outgoing. And I like why because yeah, if you act the way you want to be, someday you will be the way you act, which is basically fake it till you make it. Yeah. So I just started acting like I was outgoing, and eventually got used to it. AW: Oh, I’m so glad I asked you that question. That was amazing. Okay, so I want to move on to some specific communication skills topics and just get your perspective on how to do these things, I guess, specifically in a podcast episode, and then maybe in general, if you have any other insights for other contexts.  So the first one is asking questions, what makes for a great question? DJ: I think, if you anything that requires thought, and it’s on one hand, you don’t want to blindside people, because then you have to rely on their skill to improv. And that usually just falls flat on its face. I just watched, it’s funny, you asked this I just watched there’s a YouTube channel where this guy interview celebrities, while they’re eating wings, and the more wings they eat, it’s called hot ones. The more they eat, the hotter they get. And he’s and he’s interviewing John Mayer. And he’s really getting into the summer and the guy asked really good questions. It’s just weird that every time John eats one, he’s like, Okay, this This one tastes like a tire on fire now and then going on. But he asked him, he goes, is there any musician on that’s, that’s famous, some sort of pop star that doesn’t get the respect they deserve for their songwriting capabilities? he goes, wow, that’s a good question. And he goes, and because the person is so good, give me a second, because I gotta think about this one. And you can always add it out that awkward pause. So I think that’s part of it. Eric Nuzum wrote a book. He’s a guy from NPR. He’s been in radio forever. Yeah. He has a book called Make Noise. And he said, when you’re when you’re interviewing somebody, try to think of what’s the one thing that only this person can answer. So when I interviewed him, I asked him, I’m like, how do you get a job in NPR? Because he’s the only person I’ve ever known. That’s been on NPR. So I think that’s part of it. I think good questions are, you know, something that makes people think, and the other one I think that helps, and I appreciate is when somebody doesn’t ask me, the same old and I don’t mind answering this question. But when somebody goes, What was it like in 2005? In podcasting, I always want to go, like, why are you? Who cares? It’s a history lesson. But you so there’s sort of certain questions I get all the time. But when somebody asked me one that I go, Oh, wait, this is, this is a different angle. I just appreciate it. So I think that’s, and it’s hard to say what that is, but I tried to go and listen to if somebody I’m interviewing, I try to find the interviews that they’ve been on. And then anytime I’m looking for a follow up question, and the host didn’t ask it, I write it down. I’m like, Oh, I want to go deeper into this. So that’s, that’s a great, that’s a great strategy. AW: I like that. Yeah. But Dave, what’s the one question that only you can answer? DJ: That’s cool. See, that’s a good question. AW: I was listening to you. DJ: Well, I mean, I can answer what was it like podcasting in 2005? Maybe that’s why people ask that. But to me, I’m like, What value does that give to your audience? You know what I mean? It’s like it’s a history lesson. But what’s it like, AW: Don’t worry, I feel like this is this is not a question that I had thought of honestly, but you have personally experienced, but then you’ve also been exposed to so many podcasts as you’re coaching other people. Is there like a secret sauce, like a thing, a strategy, a philosophy that the successful podcasts all do and the ones that fail, don’t? DJ: There’s a certain characteristic maybe, or an attitude. And when I see somebody that their primary goal is not downloads. It’s not money. It’s not fame.  It’s not fortune. I want to serve my audience. When I’m like, they’re, again, almost on a mission again, that’s when they look at that and go, that person’s probably gonna, something’s gonna happen watch that person. Because they’re not worried about it. They’re like, No, I just want there’s, there’s this thing, and people need to know this. And I love talking about this. And I just am like, Alright, there you go. It’s not like, hey, when the opposite of that is when somebody says, so like, what’s the topic I should talk about? That would make the most money quickly. And you’re just like, you don’t need to start a podcast, you’re just gonna waste your time. So when I see somebody that Lee Silverstein comes to mind, Lee started off a show called the colon cancer podcast, because Lee has had stage four, stage four colon cancer, for going on 10 years now likely supposed to be dead. And, you know, when his doctor told him, You have cancer, he thought he had a death sentence. And he just decided he didn’t want to die and researched it. And you know, he’s had a couple of relapses and things like that. But he’s still here, and I love the guy. And he rebranded it to We Have Cancer because he realized that when you have cancer, guess what so does your family. And he just said, I want to make the podcast that I needed. When I heard the phrase, you have cancer. AW: Wow. DJ: And so he, over the years, he’s just kind of, it’s just gangbusters. My favorite thing is he reached out to a somewhat large cancer organization. It was like, Hey, I’m starting this thing. It’s cancer. Would you like to partner with me? And they’re like, podcasts? smodcast. What, huh? And then he started it. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew to where everybody’s like, Hey, have you heard about Lee Silverstein, and they kind of went back and knocked on his door and they’re like, Hi, Lee remember us? So I think that had to be such a great, I don’t know, just a great feeling to have somebody that kind of blew you off, come back and go, Hey, can we play with your podcast style? AW: So awesome story. Yeah. So that’s that’s a great example. I love your answer to that question, which by the way, goes back to the very first point that you made serving your audience. It’s all about serving your audience. DJ: Yeah, it has to be really in the in the clear picture you have of your audience. The better the content, the better the content, the more they’re going to tell their friends, the more they tell their friends, the bigger your audience, it just it snowballs. But it really starts with knowing your audience and then giving them what they want. AW: Brilliant. Okay, so for my audience, I’ve heard that they love it when I create frameworks and lists for them. And so one of the things that I’ve done is I’ve based on all of the research in interviews and experience and reading that I’ve done about communication skills is I came up with three communication skills that I call the communication superpowers. DJ: Okay, AW: listening, confidence, and storytelling. What do you think? What do you think about that list? DJ: I think it’s awesome. That’s really that’s exactly. Because when you talk to anybody about interviewing, the key to a good interview is yes, it helps to do research, know who you’re talking to. And what’s the one thing I can ask them, but the biggest one is to just listen, I usually have a list of, let’s say, five questions, and it’s on the left hand side of my desk, and in front of me is another blank slab of paper with a pen that doesn’t click, and I’m sitting there and I’m just listening because somebody will say something about you know, I remember this time and I it was great because it went gangbusters in Iowa, and I just write down Iowa because I want to go back to whatever happened that made it go gangbusters. But in the meantime, I got to continue listening. And what happens is if you sit there and you’re, you’re telling yourself, okay, Iowa, and Meanwhile, the person is still talking, and then you go, Oh, wait, there’s another thing, Iowa and you know, the Mustang, okay, I owe a Mustang and like, wait, and now you can’t listen anymore. And so they get done. And they’ve just explained how they shot someone for snoring and you go, great. Question number two, and you’ve completely missed it. So if you can write these down just a word, you don’t need to write down the question because again, it’s it’s kind of crazy. If you just write down a word, there you go, then you can go back to that, and ask that question. So it’s, I always tell people, if you’re starting out, if you’re doing a podcast, do one of two things, interview your parents if they’re around, and you’ll thank me someday. And if they’re not around, and you have them, interviewed your kids, and really the reason for that is when you’re interviewing, it’s weird. You’re listening, as you’re trying to figure out what’s next. There’s just a lot going on in your head. So that’s listening is huge. The second one was AW: confidence DJ: ok confidence. Yeah, confidence is tough. Because it’s it just, there’s no pill. There’s no way to just okay, if you just do this thing, you’ll be confident. Besides practice. And we all have imposter syndrome. We always are all thinking, why is anybody listening to me? Like who am I to say this stuff? Yeah, so that’s one. And we know, like, right now somebody has had value. Why? Because they’re still here, you know, they’re still listening. And but yet, somebody’s got Well, if you kind of don’t mind, if you think about like, if you want to share the show with somebody, maybe or I don’t know, if you want to know, if you just say Hey, thank you so much for listening. You’re still here. So thank you so much. So if you’re on a phone right now, there’s a share button somewhere on your phone, there’s a share button. And if you know somebody that would appreciate this, could you do me a favor and just share this with one person? And when you slow down and do that? It’s it’s so much different than Hey, can you do me a favor? My website is muted, even if you say it at warp speed, so nobody can hear it. You know, it’s just, uh, you know, so they say I’m laughing because I just said, you know, my buzz phrase. AW: So I love your point about graciously thanking people, though. You know, I’ve been teaching I have three teenagers, and I’ve been trying to teach them to someone compliments you on something, you quickly and graciously thank them. And then you move on. Right, and you don’t dismiss it? Just DJ: That’s hard. Yeah. AW: And I remember one of the first Apple reviews that I got for Apple on Apple podcasts. The person said, I love at the end, how Andrea thanked us for listening so graciously. And I was like, Wow. So it really makes a difference. DJ: And it takes practice. That’s something I’m still horrible at. And, you know, when I was married, my ex wife said, you don’t take compliments very well. And I’m like, she just knew me. And she’s like, Well, why don’t you just say, thank you so much. She goes, that’s really you know, she goes, you’re kind of dismissing them by not accepting the compliment. And I was like, oh, somebody would say, you know, Dave, you’re pretty funny. And I go out looks aren’t everything. Oh, you know? Yeah. And so again, I get a chance to make her laugh. And she’s like, I understand you’re trying to you know, it’s a funny joke. She’s like, but if you ever thought of just saying thank you, and I was like, I guess so it takes it’s a skill. And then the third one was storytelling. AW: I know you’re big on storytelling DJ: I love stories. I’ve been Yeah, I kind of did it is like, hey, let’s see what happens if I do this. This year. I just happened to start it on the first week. I started with a hopefully two minute or less story about me something I’m doing or whatever and how it’s then going to connect with whatever the topic is, So I shared a story about how I have two McDonald’s in my neighborhood. And I go to the one because it’s a better experience. And the other one, they never smile at me, I have to wait longer, blah, blah, blah, but the other one is actually farther away, I drive farther for a better experience. And I was like, so if you can give a better experience, you know, people might actually go there. And so I’ve had people when I get them kind of one on one, like, Hey, I kind of like that that thing you’re doing with the story at the beginning? Yeah. Saturday Night Live has kind of a cold open, if you think about it. Yeah. And I just thought the whole point is to get them sucked in, so that the phone is in their pocket, yeah, in or on the passenger seat or something so that when the show comes on, it’s too late to hit skip, or next show or whatever. So AW: yes, I did an experiment, actually, with some corporate workshops that I was doing online workshops, where, with the same audience, a slightly different topic. But I did one workshop, where I kicked it off with a story, just a short story. But that illustrated the point, why we’re here. And then another workshop where I didn’t do that. And the difference between the two, and nobody in the second workshop said, I didn’t like it, because she didn’t tell that story. But but the participants in the first workshop did say she’s a great storyteller. DJ:  Yeah. AW: So I know, it makes a huge difference. DJ: Well, if you can use if you need to make a point, if you can make that point was some sort of story about you. Now, when you deliver a podcast on a regular basis, well, now you are seen as trustworthy, And if you’re delivering value, well, then they probably like you, because you’re making them smarter, you’re making them laugh, or whatever it is. And then if you kind of share a little bit about yourself, they kind of feel like they know, you know, there’s so there’s the whole know, like and trust thing, so that in the event, you are using this to promote a business or a product and you say, hey, I’ve got a new book out. They’re gonna like, Oh, I like her. She’s great. I’m gonna buy her book. AW: Yeah. So before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, I just want to ask you, this is kind of a big question. But I’m really curious if you have any stories about mind blowing transformations of podcasters, where you actually witnessed someone who was horrific. And then they adopted certain strategies, and now they’re rocking it. DJ: I wouldn’t say he was horrific. He just wreaked of, I’m nervous. He just, you know, he kind of needed. And this isn’t a bad thing. But he needed kind of his handheld along the way. He was always like, I just want to make sure I’m not messing up, I might, you know, that kind of thing. And his name was Lance. And so we got him up and going, and you know, who’s kind of getting that, and he, I hadn’t heard from him for probably about a year. And he came back and said, hey, there’s some new technology coming out, I need your opinion. Let’s set up a consulting call. And he was like, great. And I said, You want me to listen to an episode and kind of see what’s going on? He goes, Oh, that would be great. And I hit play. And it was again, what did I hear – confidence! AW: Wow, DJ: much more comfortable behind the mic. He just, it just flowed. Whereas before, it was kind of timid. And this was confidence. And it just showed in, I was trying to think like, well, what’s he doing differently? or How did this happen, or whatever. And it was just a matter of rational repetition. Just doing it and finding out that, you know, I was kind of joking, nobody’s gonna punch you in the face. And nobody had punched him in the face. And he actually had people that were, you know, emailing him and saying, that was great. I love that. And he was helping people. And he kind of all of a sudden, you go from well, who would listen to me. So you’re worried that you’re not gonna have any audience. And then all of a sudden, this thing happens and people start listening to you. And that then makes you freak out. You’re like, well, what, but now people are listening to me. So I have to be careful with what I say or I’m not, you know, you think about this. Now you’re worried about the audience. You know, there’s an audience of listening to me. And he just kind of felt natural now behind the mic. And he knew what he was talking about, because I told him, me. He was an expert in the field, it was all about home health care, and taking care of, you know, aging parents and things like that. And this is a guy that’s been in that business forever. I’m like, you’re an expert. You know, he’s like, Well, yeah, but there are other people, but there’s always gonna be other people. Right? But one of the things when I was a teacher, you don’t have to be the expert, you just have to know more than your students. You know, so. So that was that was one that I was like, when I just remember hit play. And I was like, is this the same guy? Just the confidence that just ooze out of the speakers. AW: That must have been very satisfying for you to as a coach and a teacher. DJ: It was because, you know, he did all the hard work, but there’s a little bit of my thumbprint on that. So it was kind of fun. AW: So do you have any general advice that maybe one thing that you would share in terms of what podcasters should focus on in terms of their communication? DJ: Yeah, I, it’s too, but it’s really one. It’s, it’s my bumper sticker act, answer. And that is spend $100 on a microphone and spend 100 hours researching your audience. And you can do all sorts of cool stuff. My one of my favorites is I will type in whatever the subject is on Amazon. And I’ll look for two and four star reviews. Because two will be like, this was pretty awful. Except they did do this. So now you’re letting you know, and four is like, well, I would have given it five, but they didn’t talk about this. So these are people that are probably going to be vocal, where one is like, Oh, this was awful. And five was like, best thing ever. Well, that’s not very helpful. So there are all sorts of tips and tricks that you can do, even if you don’t have an audience to figure out who is my audience, and what’s gonna make them go, Wow, that was a really good podcast. So really know your audience. And then from there, it’s just, you have to figure out why am I doing this? Here’s who I’m talking to? What can I talk about that’s going to hold their attention and get them to do whatever the heck my WHY is? AW: respecting your audience. That has been a theme throughout this entire conversation. Amazing. Okay. Are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? I am horrible at rapid fire, but I will try. Okay, Question one. What are your pet peeves? DJ: Plastic bags. And this this is because of my days as a grocery bagger. When it was I went, it used to be paper, that’s all we had, there was paper plastic, and I used to pack bags that were probably 10 to maybe 15 pounds, because paper could do it. And now I go to Walmart and they will double bag my bread and I’m like, What are you and then you get home. You can’t throw them away. And so you’re stuck with all these plastic bags until you get them someplace that will recycle them. So I to me, I hate by just the whole grocery food thing, because you have to do it. It’s either you know, you buy them, then you have to put them away, then you take them out, then you cook them then you throw them it’s just a whole thing. And in the process of all that you’re stepping over the plastic bags. So that’s a that’s one that I just go plastic bags, you know, AW: so this is a side of you that I didn’t know well, Environmentalist Dave, Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you ? DJ: Can we do all of the above? I used to be very visual, I loved to read. And then when audiobooks came along, I loved those. But I also I realize, my one of my superpowers used to be, give me a manual and some software and I’ll know it in a day, is once I would read it, but then when you really start messing around with software, that’s really where the rubber hits the road. Yeah. And then eventually, I just quit, like, I don’t need the book. Just give me the software. And I’ll start clicking on menus and figuring out what it does. So I think I’m a little bit of every thing. But I know I now if somebody said, Would you like this on a Kindle a physical book? And I’m like, do you have an audio book, because audio books I can put on, you know, 1.5 speed and listen while I’m walking around the block. And so I can multitask now where I can’t walk around the block, and even even on a Kindle, although I love I love Kindle books, because I can highlight them and then go in and see just what I’ve highlighted. I love that feature. But so I don’t know that I have a primary I think I kind of do all the above. AW: So it’s fascinating to me that podcasters don’t all just answer this question with I’m auditory but like honestly, I’m visual. And here I am podcasting. So it’s interesting, isn’t it? Okay, question number three. introvert or extrovert? DJ: Yeah, primarily introvert, but once I get to know you, you can’t shut me up. AW: Got it. DJ: It’s very weird. AW: Question number four communication preference for personal conversations? DJ: This might be because I’m in my 50s. I still love the phone. And it goes back to communication. Yes, I can type lol. But it would be much better if I can actually hear you laugh. Because then I can, it’s just to me, it’s, you know, there when you go from Word to, to audio. Now I’ve got tone of voice. We can both laugh together, you know. So I love the phone. Auditory, it is auditory. Because I’m sitting thinking like, why don’t I do FaceTime? And I’m like God, because all my friends are old and they can’t figure it out. AW: Okay, this last Rapid Fire question. I’m actually really, really curious to hear your answer to. Is there a podcast that you find yourself recommending the most lately? DJ: Um, probably the one I recommend the most, because I talked about his book I talked about earlier is Matthew Diggs has a book called Speak Up Storytelling. But there is another person that I love that guy to death. Get to the point. He has a lot of at the beginning of his show that I’m like, I really just want to hear you critique a story. But on the other hand, he’s sharing stuff about his family. And I feel like I know his kids and things like that. So that’s probably what I recommend. AW: I hear you recommending the book a lot on your School of Podcasting. But I haven’t heard you recommending the podcast. I’ll definitely give that a listen. Thank you so much, Dave, it was great to ask you some questions that I think I’ve been wondering since I started listening to you. And I also want to thank you not just for sharing your time and your advice here, but also, for so generously sharing your advice every week with podcasters. I can tell you, I have listened to most of your School of Podcasting episodes. And I found it incredibly helpful. And I really appreciate it. And I thank you. DJ: Well, thanks for listening. I really appreciate that. Thanks.   THANKS for READING – and Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]  ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #80 COMMUNICATION INSIGHTS from hall-of-fame podcaster Dave Jackson appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Storytelling can elevate your communication! Learn 4 ways stories are impactful, the important elements of stories, and where to find great stories. Whether you’re giving a speech or presentation, leading a meeting, or teaching, storytelling will connect you with your audience.   RESOURCES Talk About Talk Podcast Episodes Mentioned Telling your Story with Norman Bacal – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/42-telling-your-story-with-norman-bacal/ Storytelling with Harvard Professor & author Jerry Zaltman – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ Coaching with Elite Camps founder Stephanie Rudnick – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/8-coaching-with-elite-camps-founder-stephanie-rudnick/ Communicating your Personal Brand Online – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/68-communicating-your-personal-brand-online-2/ Communicating with Confidence https://www.talkabouttalk.com/58-communicate-with-confidence-mental-preparation Other References TEDTalk – Sir Ken Robinson on “Do Schools Kill Creativity?” – https://youtu.be/iG9CE55wbtY Research: storytelling, emotions, memory: https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/EJM-12-2016-0881/full/html storytelling, personal narratives & career trajectories: https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/18-014_3a2938ae-5a6f-4173-b23a-26ed76e6c1e7.pdf Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – [email protected] Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   THANKS for READING – and Talk soon!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]       ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-4951-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-4951 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-4951 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-4951-0.panel-no-style, #pg-4951-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-4951-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-4951-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-4951-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-4951 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-4951 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-4951 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #79 How to Use STORYTELLING to Elevate Your Communication appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Upskilling, or focusing on personal development, can propel your career.  But what skills should you focus on and how should you develop them? Cherry Siu, chief of staff at Deloitte, shares personal development insights from her personal experience and observation of other global professionals.   RESOURCES Cherry Siu & Deloitte Cherry on LinkedIn –  linkedin.com/in/cherrysiu Deloitte – com Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – [email protected] Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/     INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Cherry, for joining us here today to talk about the importance of consciously developing our communication skills at work. Cherry Siu: I’m very excited to be here. AW: Why don’t we start by having you share with us a little bit about what you do in your role as Chief of Staff? CS: As chief of staff, I’m really a strategist and a connector, I drive in develop our global CNI financial advisory strategy for Deloitte. But I’m also connected in the sense that I connect different leaders from different countries together to align on the strategy, make sure we’re all leading global initiatives together, and I also lead complex projects for the firm. AW: Okay, that helps me a lot, because you know, I know these big global organizations, they have silos. So your role is to bring them all together. CS: This is very exciting, because you get to work across different cultures, different levels of executives, and try to align them into one strategy. We’re a strong believer that we stronger together as one. So I’m the person who pulls everyone together and make sure we’re all aligned and doing the same thing for bigger impact. AW: So you’re really focusing on I guess, identifying best practices, and then making sure that those are permeated throughout the organization. And one of those things, may be training people on things like communication skills? CS: Absolutely. As part of a global advisory firm, we are very strong in training our practitioners, because our people are our assets, and communications, that interpersonal skill, and how do you deal with both internally and externally with clients – is a skill set that’s fundamental to what we do. AW: But I think that’s an interesting insight, right, your organization is not selling widgets, you are selling professional services, which means you’re selling the services of human beings. And therefore, instead of investing in capital improvements, instead of investing in product improvements, you’re investing in your people and their skill development. CS: Yeah, that’s true. Especially for professional services, we’ve definitely got the technical skills. But beyond that, there’s a huge element of that interpersonal skills that people really need to develop. Because you’re not just buying a person helping you do a project, you’re really buying that relationship and someone you want to work with, AW: Oh, I love that word relationship, because if you’re not communicating, your relationship is going to suffer, right? And in your case for Deloitte, that’s internally working with teams internally, and also your relationship with your client. CS: Yes, they’re both equally important. AW: So then my question is, what specific communication skills do you think are most important in terms of these relationships, relationship building within the firm and with clients? And specifically, what skills do you see elevating the people at Deloitte in terms of them getting promoted? CS: I think one of the key things is the ability to listen and being able to synthesize information at the right level, day in and day out, I work with my clients at different level, I work all the way from C suite, the CEO, the CFO, to VP, to analysts, and you realize that they need different levels of information. I’m not going to go to the CEO, listen to him, and then give him a five-page detailed note summary of what we just discussed. Whereas, you know, if I’m working with an analyst who’s really needs the detail of everything that’s come through, that’s a different level of information. And, active listening is really important, too. It’s about being able to understand what your client is telling you, being able to read between the lines and simplifying it for them. So, a lot of times, we’re in brainstorming sessions, people throwing ideas out there, you really need to be able to understand a whole situation, being able to simplify into bullet points at the very end of it. One of my key mentors does a great thing. He can go into a three-hour conversation. And at the end of it, he’ll come back and summarize in three points. And people appreciate that, because there’s so much talking involved, it’s good for everyone to align on those key messages, and what’s the takeaway. Being able to listen is a huge thing for me. And the other thing I think is really important is being able to speak up and creating executive presence with the right people, I see people struggling to strike a balance between talking too much versus not enough. And some people force themselves – if you tried to speak up once or twice in every meeting. And I don’t think that’s the right approach to go about it because you want to add value. So I think you need to understand when you need to speak up to build trust and relationships with people. In the advisory business, my job is to solve problems for my clients. So, I need to pick the right situation and says what do I need to build relationship with my clients outside of an official meeting and speak up and have my point of view there? Or whether it is it being in the presence with every other client and being able to act as an advisor there, you got to strike the balance. And I think lastly is how you speak matters being professional in terms of how you can articulate, managing your pace, managing your tone, managing how many filter words you use – are all parts of how professional you’re gonna appear to your colleagues to your clients. That’s really important. And I try to take away filler words, trying to create pauses and not answer every single question. And it’s very difficult, I can still hear the UMMS and the AHs, but I actively count it because I know that creates a different perception to other people when they hear someone who speaks with 10 UMMS in the sentences – versus someone who’s very eloquent and can pause at the right time. AW: Wow, Cherry, that’s you gave me so much to think about, and, frankly, so much to synthesize to your point. But I love this list you. So your last point there was really about executive presence and communicating really true to the personal brand that you’re working to establish whether it’s internally with your team or externally with clients, as you said, and whether it’s you or whether it’s somebody else. So that’s music to my ears, because I’m also very much focused on personal branding, as you know. And you talked a lot about synthesizing, which, to be honest, I don’t hear from a lot of other executives that I’m talking with about communication skills. But I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, the ability to take complex messy problems, you know, complex meetings, even a complex podcast episode, and synthesize it down to main points. That is a superpower. Kudos to you for identifying that. But you started off by saying listening. I mean, I 100% agree. Two years ago, or two and a half years ago, when I started talk about talk, I absolutely thought that listening was number one, unquestionably. And I and I still think it’s up there. But more recently, I’ve identified the three superpowers of communication skills. So, number one is listening. And number two is confidence, which you articulated in terms of having executive presence and knowing when to speak, and how to speak and how much to speak and not using UMMs and AHs and all that stuff. So that all fuels into confidence. I’m curious what you think about my third superpower, though. So I based on my experience, my observation and my research, I really believe that storytelling is also a communication superpower. What do you think about that? CS: No, that’s actually really aligned. At Deloitte storytelling is everything. And it’s not just oral communication, it’s written, you know, every time we do a proposal, it’s about storytelling. How do we solve a problem for the client? And how do we take them through that journey, we actually have a course called the art of storytelling, because storytelling really helps people understand what you’re saying, and ease them into the journey. It’s easy to throw solutions at people, but you need to take them through the journey and make them understand and be part of that journey for them to build that trust and want to work with you. AW: Very well said, and I love how you use the word journey. There’s so many times because really, that’s what storytelling does. Right? It ensures that your audience or your client, or whoever you’re communicating with, is along with you. And you can vividly illustrate what you’re talking about through storytelling. So on the other hand, oh, I’m wondering, what skills have you observed just looking around, you know, at various people’s career paths? What skills do you think seem to hold people back from ascending the corporate ladder at Deloitte? CS: I think just to call the obvious, there’s definitely a technical component to it. So from a technical skills, the attention to detail, your ability to actually perform the work is one of the key things that will contribute to whether you get promoted or not. But I think that’s the fundamental beyond the technical skill set. There’s a couple of things that comes into mind, I think, one is your ability to build relationship. And it’s not just a client perspective, because we’re in professional service with also internally as well. You need to be someone who works well with other people and be part of a team player. You need to you need to be someone who people want to work with. That’s a huge component of it. I know when I first came into professional service, a colleague once told me there’s always a airport test when we hire and I asked him, what’s the airport test right? And my interviewers at the airport test is if I’m stuck with you at an airport lounge for eight hours, do I still feel like I want to talk with you on the rest of the project, or as I am, I try to avoid you for the entire duration. Because if I don’t want to be in the same space with you for a prolonged time, then you’re not someone who’s going to contribute to my happiness or someone I want to work with. So I think that’s one key component of being able to build relationships being re get along with people and be part of a team player. The other thing is flexibility. In professional service you in the guest room, a lot of different problems you can have for a lot of different projects and a lot At different industries, being able to be flexible to be a quick learner and picking up different skill sets that you need. Every project to me is is brand new. You know, one day I’ll be working on and consumer good client the next day I could be working on a technology client. While I’m still working on M&A projects for them, there’s a fundamental difference to how a technology versus a consumer goods company is operated. And I have to be very quick to learn those and be flexible to adapt to different business models. So being able to adapt is huge in our business. AW: Wow, Cherry, I love your answer. So first of all your story about the airport, I think being stuck. I could, I was imagining myself actually stuck at the airport with you. And I was thinking, that’d be great. I mean, relatively speaking. So I love that I love how you illustrated that with a story. But I was thinking it reminds me also of you know, in elementary school, in our report card, they would say Plays Well With Others. And you know, some parents may dismiss that as whatever. But no, it’s really important. If you can’t play well with others, you probably can’t work well with others. Right? I love that. And then your second point about agility and pivoting. And I think that, you know, the whole COVID pandemic has really exaggerated the fact that the ability to be agile, to move quickly, to refocus is a huge skill. And if you don’t have it, you know, your careers dead. Let’s move on then to different ways that people are working on their interpersonal skills, their relationship skills and their communication skills. And I was thinking, as I was preparing for this interview, that earlier in my career, the idea of seeking help to work on a skill, like actually hiring a coach to come in and help me work on something would be seen as a weakness, only people that were deficient in something would be seeking the help of a coach. But nowadays, people all the way up to CEOs have coaches, and they’re taking workshops. And it seems it’s really the norm. Can you talk about how personal development is perceived within your organization? CS: You know, personal development is very important, it is the new normal. And I think we all hear it all the time, you know, personal development, continuous growth, lifelong learning, it’s something that’s something that’s really positively thought of at the moment in professional service. Personal development is a never-ending cycle. Being able to identify what type of gaps you have and working to fix it is really a great sign of maturity. And a great side of confidence. AW: You know, what you’re reminding me of Cherry is the term vulnerability, right? So, vulnerability used to be a thing to be avoided, being vulnerable meant being weak, and Brene Brown and all of her advocates have now taught us that being vulnerable, maybe identifying what’s making you feel uncomfortable, or a weakness that you want to work on is actually a strength because it’s demonstrating a growth mindset you want to improve? And I guess it makes sense that those are the people that we want around, right? CS: From a personal development perspective, I think there’s multiple facets that we need to look at, there’s obviously a technical perspective, from a professional perspective towards a huge fan of getting you more accredited upskilled. So whether it’s a new certification, whether it’s learning a new skill set and new technology, that’s something the firm is very strongly supporting. But beyond that, there’s also the mental and physical aspect as well. So mental health and well-being and personal development, that aspect is also very important. So thinking about how do you work on your work life balance? How do you make yourself feel better from a physical perspective to give you that confidence, it gives you that boost of energy to do better, I think that’s also part of personal development that people need to consider. It’s not all just a technical aspect… AW: so can you suggest or outline some ways that people in your organization have been working on their soft skills? CS: You know, practice is a key thing. Being able to personally be able to feel yourself in uncomfortable situations, stepping outside of your comfort zone is a huge thing to expanding your skill set and accelerating your soft skill. Now, I’m not talking about throwing yourself in the fire and doing something completely brand new. But even if you’re a person who doesn’t like to speak up a meeting, even volunteering to lead a meeting once in a while, is something that will help you get that practice to enhance your soft skills. One other thing I do is record myself and play back to myself. And it’s horrifying thing to do. It’s a horrifying thing to do to watch yourself and listen to yourself speak and I cringe every time but then you can capture and being an observer, see what you’re doing wrong and what you want to improve on. AW: So I just want to say kudos to you for doing that. Most people even podcasters cringe at you know, going back in the archives and playing something that they’ve already edited nevermind something you haven’t edited. So kudos, kudos to you, I’m sure Cherry that that’s really paid off in spades. CS: Yes, it has. It’s been phenomenal. Seeing the type of improvements and seeing how, what the changes I’ve made in the process. That’s great. Another thing you can do is take out personal development courses. So there are communication courses, negotiation courses, leadership courses out there, both online, physical, even reading a book that will help you upskill yourself. One of the interesting things that you might want to try in terms of communication would be improv, you know, it’s like going to second city and taking that improv class, it really gets yourself out there in a safe environment. Once you get over the hurdle. And again, something that’s way outside of your comfort zone, you’ll see that talking and speaking up in that meeting is a lot easier. And it basically hones your reflexes and communication. AW: Yeah, absolutely. So I actually interviewed two improv comedians, just over a year ago, and it’s one of my really popular episodes. And, and the thing that I think most directly translates to communication skills, is listening. Because if you’re on-stage doing improv, you have to be fully engaged in what the other person is saying. And then you respond with. Yes. And and if you can translate that over into a zoom meeting, right, where someone is saying something you’re actively listening, and you respond with Yes, and you’re off to the races. That’s a great point. CS: And I also need to add that formal or informal mentorship is really important. Being able to ask someone that you trust to provide feedback for you is, it’s phenomenal. It’s difficult to ask for feedback sometimes, because we’re unsure how people will perceive us. So having that mentor as someone who you can bounce ideas off of. And someone who can give you transparent feedback and actually help you create a plan is super important. One of the things I think about feedback is, sometimes you have resistance to it. That’s why you need to find a mentor you can trust because being able to trust your advice, makes it easier for you to accept changes that you may need to make. I suggest everyone to go look for a mentor. It doesn’t have to be formal, but find that person that you trust that they have skills, and they have traits that you want to emulate, and work with them on how do you enhance your skills. AW: Yeah, and I back to the vulnerability point, if you say to the person, I’m really focused on developing my leadership communication skills. And here’s what I’m thinking, can you provide me with some feedback? I mean, the person is going to be impressed, right? CS: Absolutely. Yeah. AW: Anything else in terms of how people in your organization or even how you have worked on developing your soft skills? CS: I think one last thing is just being really reflective, being able to see the failures and the success that you’ve had along the way, and figuring out what can you do better, and what you continue to do the stop start and continue. framework really works, in terms of softening your own soft skills as well. AW: absolutely brilliant. Cherry, I wasn’t expecting you to say that. But using the stop continue start framework for yourself, consciously evaluating your own performance, even just on soft skills. And then, you know, I guess leveraging your growth mindset to improve next time. So do you have any other general career advice for folks who hope to get noticed and get promoted in professional services or really, in any career? CS: Don’t be everything to everyone. You got to pick what you want to be and how you want to proceed? Be flexible. I had mentioned that you know that being able to adapt and flexible to a situation is very important. Communication is key. It’s how you communicate, but also communicating and managing expectations. AW: Brilliant. So you’ve got three things, right? You’ve got not being everything to everyone. So really, it’s your superpower. It’s being flexible. So the ability to pivot, which again, we were talking about, it’s really amplified. And then thirdly, working on your communication skills. And as you put it, your executive presence. CS: Yep. I think those three things are key for any career and at any stage. AW: Yeah, I would agree. It’s true. It’s for whether you’re just starting out your career or whether you’re commanding the whole organization. those are those are absolutely critical. All right. Are you ready to move on to the five rapid fire questions? CS: Yes. AW: Okay, question number one. What are your pet peeves? CS: Running out of sweet things in my home and seeing a weed in my lawn. AW:  What have you tried for weeding? CS: I just pick them up one at a time. Or yell at my husband. AW: haha. okay, question number two, what kind of learner are you? CS: I’m a both a visual and a physical learner. So I learn through doing it and by seeing it at the same time, AW: that’s that’s actually a superpower in itself is knowing how you best internalize information. That’s great. Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert? CS: I’m an introvert. But I’ve worked on my social skills. I’m very comfortable in high functioning social environments as well. AW: Okay, question number four. What’s your communication preference or medium for personal conversations? CS: for personal conversation, Whatsapp is how you get me. It’s a great tool in which I can see it the other person’s online, I can feel the conversation and know what we talked about. And if I really want to go on a video on call the same app, AW: brilliant. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? CS: There’s two. One is called a bullet. It’s a newspaper extract. On a daily basis, I get to get the basic news. As soon as I wake up. And the other one is called get abstract. It’s business books on steroids basically give you extracts of different business books. So if you don’t have time in your day to read full books, a 10 minute extract of the key important lessons is the way to go. AW: Wow. So thank you, because you’re, you know, I devour news and I devour books. I’m going to check out both of those – The Bullet and Get Abstract. And I’m also going to share links to those in the show notes so that the listeners can also access them. Is there anything else you want to add about how people can really consciously and explicitly focus on improving their communication skills at work? CS: I go back to practice, practice, practice. Put yourself in environments where you have an opportunity to get practice. And if you think that you’re not getting in those situations, then look – actively seek for it. The more you do, the better you’ll be at it. AW: That’s great. Thank you so much, Cherry. CS: Absolutely. It was my pleasure.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai     THANKS for READING – and Talk soon!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]               ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-4934-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-4934 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-4934 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-4934-0.panel-no-style, #pg-4934-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-4934-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-4934-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-4934-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-4934 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-4934 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-4934 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #78 PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT: Upskilling to Propel Your Career with Cherry Siu appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Personal branding is more than just the words we say about ourselves. Learn to reinforce your personal brand through consistent implicit communication, ranging from your personal style, possessions, affiliations, how you show up for meetings, and more.  RESOURCES Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk About Talk Related podcast episodes: What Our POSSESSIONS Say About Us: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/17-what-our-possessions-say-with-russell-belk/ PERSONAL BRANDING & AUTHENTICITY https://www.talkabouttalk.com/71-personal-branding-authenticity-tmi/ ONLINE PERSONAL BRANDING https://www.talkabouttalk.com/68-communicating-your-personal-brand-online-2/ Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-4897-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-4897 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-4897 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-4897-0.panel-no-style, #pg-4897-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-4897-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-4897-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-4897-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-4897 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-4897 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-4897 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #77 PERSONAL BRANDING: Reinforcing your Personal Brand with Implicit Communication appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Strong communication skills can elevate your leadership effectiveness and your career.  CEO Jill Nykoliation shares her general career advice, what she keeps in her 2 notebooks, the most common career pitfalls, and more. Listen to learn how to communicate like a boss! This is the 2nd half of a 2-part interview. Please see episode #75 for part 1.   RESOURCES Jill Nykoliation LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillnykoliation/ Juniper Park\TBWA: https://www.juniperparktbwa.com/ Recommendation: Chatterjee’s podcast -Feel Better Live More Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Email – [email protected] Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Jill, for joining us here today to talk about leadership and communication skills. Jill Nykoliation: It’s such a pleasure to be here, Andrea, thanks for having me.  AW: My first question is a big one. What is your leadership philosophy? JN: My leadership philosophy. I would sum it up as, don’t lead through a rear view mirror. Yesterday’s behind us, I tell my team all the time – Notice what’s ending and let it go. Notice what’s emerging and step into it. AW: Wow. So perspective, and being proactive, but also internalizing what has happened? JN: What has happened and letting go is a big part of leadership. I’m really big on let it go. You can’t step into the new when you’re pulling all the baggage of the past. And we have to move so quickly. Everything’s changing so quickly, that the less baggage you have, the less attachment you have to past ideas, or past identities, the faster you can move into the future. So I tell my team all the time, is just notice what’s ending and let it go. AW: I love that metaphor, I can actually imagine a team climbing a mountain, and they’ve got this big, heavy baggage. JN: yes.  AW: And their leader’s saying, drop the bag, drop the bag, like why are you carrying this uphill? JN: You’re actually making me think of this, I think it’s the movie Ants. They were going to a new anthill. And one of the ants asks, why are we carrying all this crap? Aren’t we just going to get new crap when we get there? And it’s true. It’s like, why are we pulling all this crap from one anthill to another? And my daughter and I laugh about it. Don’t bring everything forward, let things go and be grateful, is a very Marie Kondo. Thank you. You’ve served me. Well, I’m gonna let you go. AW: I love it, you’ve served your purpose. That’s what she would say, right? JN: You’ve served your purpose and be really grateful. And I find when you say thank you to things, whether its business models, or its team members, or processes, you leave the animosity, and you leave the resistance, and you leave the fear of letting go. You just consciously open up your hands and drop it.  AW: Do you have any specific examples? JN: Yes, I lead an advertising agency and communication is changing all the time. And so for us, letting go, let’s say of production methodologies, where it used to be big and polished, etc. It’s okay, sometimes you need that. But most times, we need a piece of content that’s going to be relevant for, I don’t know, three days. And so let go of the process that made a great big Superbowl ad, and actually let it all go. What do we do to create this content that only needs to be relevant for three days? That’s a lot freer, it’s a different budget. So instead of taking what you had and whittling it down, drop it in, create a whole new process. Or advertising used to always be you start with the insight, which is more of an ethnography type of understanding. But now data leads. And so let that go, don’t resist that. Going, actually, what if we got a brilliant team of data scientists in here? And then we’ll look for insights. So letting go of the way it used to be done. When you and I grew up at Kraft, it was all about the insight. Now it’s data leads. But again, let go of the way you learned things. AW: So as you’re describing that, I’m thinking of two things. One is that having this philosophy and encouraging your staff to adopt the same philosophy is enabling them and you to pivot – which is such an overused term. JN: … it really is. But we really are! I think pivot is overused, and people are just making steps. But we know we literally pivoted in COVID. We launched two new divisions, and our business had our best year ever. In COVID when advertising is being stopped, we had our best year ever. Because we truly pivoted into the new. AW: And the other thing that came to mind as you were describing this example was a growth mindset. So you’re also I think implicitly encouraging yourself and your staff to think of what’s next and what’s coming forward and what you can learn and first we need to keep in mind the consumer insights for example, right? JN: Yes, exactly. And so for me growth mindset – so many people have heard that, but they don’t actually know what it means, because they go: but I’m afraid to grow. And so finding other words, less buzzwords. Like just notice what’s ending and then … I’ll do this in a staff meeting. What do we think? Sending it into the chat. What do you guys see is ending? That’s interesting to see … Oh, yes, then they’ll go – this is ending. Okay. What do we see that’s starting? And then so … And meanwhile, you’ve got them in a growth mindset. Most people aren’t actually actively growing and those of us who embody it, we can throw the shorthand at people, but short hands aren’t clear for a lot of people. AW: I agree. cliches are powerful and dangerous at the same time. JN: Right, exactly.  AW: So if that’s your leadership philosophy, I’m curious if you may also have a communication philosophy. JN: Yes, I do. Funny you should ask. (haha) I’d say there’s three things. One is precision. And that’s the big one. I love to spend time on that.  There’s precision, compassion, and frequency. Those are the three I’d say, form my signature style, which I have found to be quite effective, especially in this moment, where we’re all virtual. AW: Can you describe or define what each of those elements are? JN: Yes. So precision with words, we need to be specific with our words, because our words form a narrative. And then we work to make that narrative true. And so if we’re lazy with our words, we blanket things like, I’ll never crack this. Like, really? Never? Like, never? Really? Are you sure? Like, are the clients always like this? Or this process is always so screwed up. Always. Never. The question I ask my team a lot, my daughter too, is, Is that true? That’s interesting. Is that true? It’s never like never gonna happen. Or always. So I don’t like extreme words, because it will rarely ever.. AW:  hyperbole is dangerous JN: That’s exactly it. All this is on my shoulders. Really? You’re the only one? There’s no one on your team that could absolutely can help you with that? We have a very familial, very collective culture. So when people say that, I go, oh, okay, is that true that it’s all on you? It might feel that way. But is it true? And is that the expectation? I use precision a lot. AW: And that’s obviously very powerful and important when you guys are creating copy. JN: Yes that’s true. We need to be precise when they’re writing words for a client. But it’s like the shoemakers, kids, when you use it for yourself, you get sloppy. So another thing is to be pithy. That’s something that I learned back when we were at Kraft, we had this facilitator, his name was Cavis and he had a rule. He said, Tell me the headline, and then you can talk as long as you want. And then when you had a crisp headline, you actually didn’t need to talk that long. But when you weren’t clear in what you wanted to say, Boy, you had a lot to say, walk it around, and people like, where are they going with this? And so again, when I try and write or when I speak, what’s the headline? So for example, I was on a panel the other day, and someone said to me, so, how’s your business doing? And I said we had our best year ever. And they go, why do you think that is? And my answer was, because catastrophe require sharpshooters. AW: Brilliant, wow. JN: This is a catastrophe moment, business wise. And my team is a team of sharpshooters. And I actually call them ninja navy seals, because I can’t decide which ones they are. So I put together navy seals, we are the elite team. Basically, you’re in a crisis. What our clients are saying is: get me out of this. We’re that team. So we’re doing extremely well in a catastrophe because this is the caliber you want. But that answer catastrophe requires sharpshooters, three words – it just said so much. So that’s what I mean by headlines. And then I can talk as long as I want. But I don’t know if I need to once you hear that. AW: I’ve told the story, actually, in some workshops, I learned that the hard way. When I was a doctoral student, and I had the opportunity for the first time to present my academic research to my peers and some faculty members. And I got up and I spent all this time with my script and my slides. And I started talking. And about 15 minutes in, one of the senior faculty members stood up and said, Andrea, why are we here? I was thinking, I don’t want to tell you because there’s a punch line. No, no, no, no, I learned that I really learned the hard way. Right there. And then and I use it now, whether it’s a podcast, whether it’s a workshop, even when I’m writing newsletters, like you tell them what you’re going to tell them, and then and then go,… JN: I was just working on this with one of my teams yesterday. When you work on a Keynote or PowerPoint, whichever form you’re using, Do not make the headline, a label. “Context.” “Agenda.” “Design system.” And like no! “The design system will evolve from last year in two specific ways.” AW: Oh, brilliant. JN: So reading the page is optional. If I just go through and read your headlines, I’ve got what you’re saying. AW: Brilliant. JN: Anything else is context. If you want people to get the point, then say the point. AW: It’s respectful to your audience, whether they’re listening or reading, whatever, it’s respectful of their time, right? JN: Yes. So that’s precision. Another communication philosophy I have is compassion. And I would say I lead from the feminine. I didn’t always do that. And it was brought to my attention four years ago. I made a structural change, and my coach whom I learned so much from. He was like, you know, Jill, now that you’re restructuring, it’s time to step into your natural style and which is… he goes, but you’ve been leading from the masculine. Because I grew up in a family of three brothers, you know, lots of boys in the house, the language of business is typically masculine, and an advertising is ultra masculine. And he said, “you’ve learned that’. That’s a learned language for you. But it’s not your natural language. And it was an epiphany for me, right? I’m not, that’s not my natural language. I did some really deep work to go, “Well, how do I show up naturally?” And once I gave myself permission to come as my whole self, my leadership took a whole new level. But also I dress differently, I show up differently. And my team just like, oh! And then my team’s performance went up to level two, because I came in my whole self, which means – because you know that people watch what leaders do. All of a sudden, I’m showing up as myself, which automatically signals they can show up as their selves. And then vulnerability just happens. AW: Wow, I have to say what you just shared with me, I’ve got the shivers, I, I’m working a lot right now on personal branding. And I’m encouraging people to step into what makes them unique. And I feel like if I had been a fly on the wall, when your coach shared that with you, and you said that you kind of had an epiphany, and you had to do some work, to figure out how to show up, that I have a saying that I share, which is unique is better than better. And so you were you grew up in a household, and then you were working in industries were better meant masculine. JN: Yes.  AW: And now you’re embodying your true, authentic, unique self. And, again, I got the shivers. It’s like your superpower. JN: Yes. And then advertising is very in-person. It’s a team sport, we put things up and we build and we touch. And now we’re doing that through screens…  You really need to reach into the screen and be compassionate through the screen. So a couple of examples that you say of compassion. I know you talk a lot about listening. And I love that, and how I phrase it, I kind of amp it and go, can you hold space for someone? Because a lot of people go Yes, I’m listening. They’re actually hearing. They’re not listening. AW: Yes. JN: And I love how you’ve talked about the two to one ratio, you have two ears and one mouth, and that’s the ratio you should use. So I use my phrase, holding space. Because those words mean No, hold the space, you’re going to hold a container. Really? And how did you get to that conclusion? How did that make you feel? Truly let them get it off their chest, and dimensionalize it. If you’re listening, you notice, you’re often listening to respond. But if you hold space, you know, my job is just to hold the space is just to keep everything from interrupting you, including myself. And I actually have a container. It’s right here.  Actually, it’s a clear container. Sometimes I go, Okay, put it in the box. Look at that thing. Let’s just talk about and I literally put it in the box for some people like no, no one’s touching it, we’re just going to hold space for it. And that helps some people understand what I mean. But when you hold space, and people feel heard, often they just go, do you understand what I’m saying? Is the client saying, I don’t like this for XYZ? I literally hold space. When you hold space, then you can get a clear picture. And then what you say back is so much more informed. You have a full picture. When someone doesn’t like what I’m what we’re presenting, I can hold space, because I’m so confident in what it is. But I can wait. I can hold my point. I can hold it for 20 minutes if you want. AW: So one question about compassion. And this may link back to what you were saying before about avoiding buzzwords and using a different word that may define what you really mean. What’s the difference between compassion and empathy? JN: Empathy for me is I literally I can feel what you feel.  AW: Okay. JN: And compassion is more Wow, I’m observing how you feel, that must feel horrible. Tell me more about it. Not everyone is empathetic. I am. I have to protect that because sometimes I don’t need to feel what everyone’s feeling. AW: Right. JN: But I also made an assumption that everyone can, but it’s like sympathy versus empathy are not the same thing. One is literally I can walk a mile in your shoes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. AW: And then that’s a bit of a burden. JN: Yes, it’s a burden.  AW: Yes, it is. JN: My empathy can be …I think all of us have superpowers that can have negative sides. AW: Absolutely. JN: Okay. And then the third part of my communication philosophy is frequency. Frequency is important because just because we say it once doesn’t mean people absorbed it. We have to have full context. And so repeating things. So frequency of make sure you say things, you’re consistent. Second by frequency, what I mean is I literally get in front of people often. This is new for COVID times. We talk to our team every single Monday morning for half an hour. Without fail. Never miss. I personally talk to the team every Thursday, without fail, never miss. And knowing that we have that drumbeat is really important. Professor Tom DeLong at Harvard drilled into us that ambiguity is always perceived negatively. And that’s what we do as humans – if I don’t know what’s happening, oh, why aren’t they telling us this? Like, I don’t know. I didn’t think you needed to know or I thought you already understood. For frequency, we literally get an ever go more than a few days. I go. Hi. There’s not much to share with you this Thursday. But I promised you I’d be here every Thursday. And here’s what I got. And so even if I have nothing to say I don’t cancel, I can say there’s no news No changes. So they can have assurance. What we do every Friday, we call it Pulse –  get the pulse. Every Friday, we text our entire team and say how did it go this week? Good or bad? Any comments? And then every Friday they have a platform to anonymously tell us how things are going. They can communicate to us. How’s it going? Could be oh my gosh, shout out to this team. Or you know what, my home chair is really uncomfortable. Is the company going to upgrade our home chairs? It could be anything. And then we share it Monday morning. We literally put the comments up. Okay. Okay, how are we trending? Here’s the thumbs up comments. Here’s the thumbs downs. And here’s the asks. And everybody shows up, because it really is anonymous. AW: Wow. JN: Criticism is a gift. Even if it comes out as – like someone said to me, or came up through the feedback. Jill’s positivity is toxic. AW: Oh, wow. JN: Right. Oh, but then I thought … okay, is it true? No. We talked it through. What is toxic positivity? And why am I positive? Like as a leader? I don’t think you need me to come up here on Thursdays and say this is really hard. That’s not helpful. It is hard. I’ll say that, but I won’t stay there. But what I said to them, I’m grateful that you said it. Behind every criticism is a wish. I’m finding this really hard and I’m overwhelmed. Jill’s making it seem like everything’s going well, it’s not. I don’t know how to ask for help. And I feel like I’m the only one. And then I leaned in and I said okay, everyone has my cell phone number. But let me give it to you again, everyone, grab a pencil, text me, call me. I don’t know who you are. I’m going to wrap my arms around you. Everyone, energetically let’s wrap our arms around each other. Give yourselves a big hug that what we’re doing is so hard. And one of us, some of us are struggling. Look into your circles, find out who they are and help them. So I literally talk that way. That’s compassion. But frequency, you never go more than four business. You can say it to your boss anytime. But if you find it something you can’t say, either it’s too small, or it’s too frightening for you to say ,you have the anonymous ,we call it pulse. I can’t imagine running a business without it. Now we’ve been doing it for a year. AW: So I was just listening to a podcast WorkLife with Adam Grant. And  JN: I love that!  AW: It was the interview with Brené Brown. And he talks about you know, in companies, they often provide for customers a suggestion box. Right now we need to have an internal complaint box, an issue box.  JN: And we have one! That podcast was fantastic.  AW: It is. So I wanted to ask you more about buzzwords. But before we do that you mentioned you know the effects of the pandemic and COVID and working from home a few times and and it sounds as if you had many of these philosophies and exercises and structures that you had created for your organization before COVID and maybe COVID. And the whole experience of working from home has reinforced the significance of these things. But is there anything that’s changed in terms of your leadership and or communication philosophy? JN: Yes. So I’d say I turned it from like a dial of 4 to like 9.5 Yes, we would have the Mondays we never had Thursdays too, and they’re different. One is Mondays is report back what you said, and Thursday’s is super personal. Thursday’s are intimate. I never did that before. I had everybody physically with me. And I never met them every Thursday, I have to say every Thursday, Why would they come? And I never got so intimate. They see me without makeup on. I actually I’ve talked about some ways how I’m coming in. I’m like, Okay, I’m coming in and I’m a four right now. And I’m but I’m here. I lost my energy today. And so, but we’re here, I let them see me not at my best. But I’m like – but we’re here and I’m gonna pull energy from you this afternoon because sometimes  you pull energy from me and I’m gonna pull energy from you … I was up all night helping my daughter with a biology exam and I’m like, I don’t know, I’m taking grade 12 biology all of a sudden, I’m exhausted. So I see my level of compassion is way up. Vulnerability way up. Frequency, I turned that up. And it’s going back to vulnerability. I named things. For example, one time I said to my team, alright, coming in like five today and I said, we went through the stage of adrenaline. Then we went to endurance. And now we’re in monotony. I think this is a late fall last year . We were in monotony. My executive team texted me and said, don’t name it! I’m like, no, I’m naming it.. So we’re going to talk about how do we stay inspired through monotony? My meals have gotten sloppy. I’m not dressing up for you guys anymore. I said, I’m just sinking into monotony. And I said, but people hire us to be creative, inspiring. So we cannot sink to monotony. We can’t. Our job as sharpshooters is to create brilliantly creative, persuasive answers. So how do you be creative when you’re bored, and you’re scared, and you’re numb? Maybe you’re feeling that too? Alright, let’s name it. And we can’t let ourselves go there. I never used to talk this way. AW: Do you tell your staff regularly where you are on a scale of one to 10? Like Brené Brown? JN: Yes! She said she comes home to her husband like, oh, we’re both at seven. Oh, we have a 30% gap. So I do. And I do that with my executive team. We meet every single day at 230. We never did that before. So nothing goes longer than a day. Yes. AW: I’m hearing a lot of inspiring messages for leaders. And for everyone, frankly, Jill, I’m really inspired by your self-awareness. And I’m really inspired by your vulnerability, as you call it. And as I’m sure as apparent to the people that you’re with, and then that has so many positive benefits for your organization, and then for your clients. And you said turning up the dial, and I am seeing a dashboard with all these dials with all of these philosophies that you’ve talked about. And you can turn them up and down. And right now, a lot of them are being turned up. JN: Yes.  AW: So there are so many leadership and communication buzzwords out there, right? We’ve talked about authenticity, but there’s resilience. There’s servant leadership, there’s inclusiveness, there’s optimism, there’s transparency, there’s a growth mindset. How do you as a leader navigate all of this advice and rhetoric? Because I know that you’re reading and you’re listening, and it’s really overwhelming. How do you decide what matters? JN: Such a good question. As we talked earlier, buzzwords are helpful short hands. But they also give us places to hide. And so what I try and do is not use them if I can. Again, back to my point about precision. Buzzwords usually aren’t precise. They’re fat words. They catch a lot of things. They’re bulky. And so I like to use plain language. And I learned this from my CFO at an agency I was at before I started this one. She wrote like no other finance person. She used such plain language. But I remember thinking, I so appreciate the way you’re writing. And she said, because I’m writing finance for creative people to understand. And so that imprinted on me to go What’s the clearest I can be? So short answer: I try to avoid buzzwords because they’re actually lazy. Precision is something I say to my team. There’s the butter knife. The steak knife. The scalpel. We are the scalpel. AW: Okay, Jill, I have to say that your metaphors are blowing my mind. Oh my gosh. JN: I say that, literally. And so we launched our precision marketing firm, we called it The Scalpel. And I say to my guys, this is called scalpel. We’re always pushing ourselves to be the scalpel. So let’s just call it that. Let us be the scalpel. But that’s what I mean by being precise. Buzzwords are rarely a scalpel. They’re usually butter knives. AW: It’s true. Like you said, use plain language. JN: Plain language. They say, Oh, we should be vulnerable, we should show up as our authentic selves. And it doesn’t seem vulnerable … Their mistake is they think that means being personal. Right? And vulnerability and personal. They’re two different things. AW: Yes, it’s orthogonal. So Jill, as I was sharing with you, I’ve been asked so many times what I think the number one most important communication skill is and I used to say quite easily listening. But over the last couple of years, actually, even before COVID started, I was hearing things from my coaching clients and from my podcast listeners that made me really think about this, I guess more completely and it’s not just listening. So now I say there’s three superpowers. Listening, storytelling and communicating with confidence. And there’s different reasons why each of those show up on my list, but I’m wondering, what do you think about this list? JN: Okay, so I love your list. And the way I hear those things, so listening we talked about I say that as hold space. Truly listen, so that that means like listen for it with a capital L. Hold space. Confidence, I love.  I would say that’s pretty much precision. Confidence builds when people talk with precision. You’re very confident. When you’re not confident you use lazy words, because you’re not really sure. You’re coming in like a butter knife. So I agree with confidence. Storytelling. Absolutely. AW: Yes, an advertiser, of course. JN: But you think about way back to the cavemen, they drew pictures on cave walls. And they told stories. Why? Because that’s how we remember things. We don’t really remember data points, but remember, you string them in a story we remember, or even my metaphor of a butter knife sticking your scalp like I say, \\ you should be precise with your words. Yes, when I put it in  a metaphor of like, a butter knife isn’t really cutting much. It’s a butter knife. It spreads things, you spread peanut butter. You’re actually not cutting much. When something needs cutting, you get the steak knife. And then, you know, I’m getting heart surgery, I want that guy to have a scalpel. I want them to be really precise. So I’d say storytelling, metaphors are helpful. Personal experience relevance. So putting yourself in a story. AW: universal truth. JN: So relevance is really important to storytelling, but I love your three, you said listening, confidence and storytelling. AW: Oh, gosh, I could I could talk to you about each of those three for an hour. JN: But I think each of those is a skill that you could do a whole deep dive lesson on in communication. How many people listening on this podcast have actually gone to school on how to hold space for somebody? AW: Yep, exactly. You actually just made me think of something which is recently I’ve been talking to some tech entrepreneurs, and they’re talking about how the leaders of organizations that they’re talking to the tech leaders are saying that the skills that are needed in the workplace most are these interpersonal and communication skills, right? JN: So well, because it’s how you get the most out of everybody. And what my job is a leader is to communicate the vision. And but it’s also to make people feel safe. Because you can’t be brave, if you don’t feel safe. You can’t take risks. It’s hard to innovate if you don’t feel safe. I realized as a leader, when people feel safe, they go out and do extraordinary things. And then I take that as a big responsibility is how do I in this environment, all environments, but this one particular is like, Oh, yes, you’re right. I am studying, I am going to school and things because the softer stuff, gets people gets their guards down. It makes innovation happen. It makes collaboration smoother, because if we don’t trust each other, and we don’t feel safe, we don’t show up. Here’s a dumb idea. I’m not going to say that if I feel like I’m being judged, right? The CEO gets up and says, guys, I made a huge mistake. Or what I did, I snapped at somebody … I was just so frustrated. I waited a few minutes. I said, Okay, I have to stop the meeting. I was short with you. I’m so sorry. And they’re No, no, it’s okay. I said no, it’s not okay. Please don’t dismiss it as okay. I want to apologize to you. I want to apologize to everybody on this screen. That wasn’t kind, it was unnecessary. And it wasn’t anything you did. It was me. My frustration came out on you. And then on my Thursday, huddle, I talked about it – hey, I had this thing. And I threw my frustration on to somebody, and I apologized. And we thereby want to make sure everyone here knows that. I know it happens. I did it too. Let’s make sure we have it. We’re going to do it. Make sure we apologize as quickly to the incident as possible. Because we’re human. We’re going to do it. But that’s also like showing them It’s okay,  we can make mistakes. It’s not okay to do that. It’s okay to apologize.  AW: Wow, you’re creating an environment. That’s just so psychologically… I’m trying to avoid buzzwords when I’m around you. But it’s psychological safety. JN: That’s a motivator for me. Yes.  AW: So I have a prediction Jill. You’re going to be flooded with resumes after this. JN: We’re growing.  So I don’t mind.  ========================== AW: So but speaking of your staff, I have a question for you specifically about that. What skills do you see lacking in people that sometimes may end up halting their career progression? JN: Curiosity. AW: ooo…. JN: I think curiosity is missing from a lot of people. Because again, they’re showing up with wanting to prove how much they know, show off what they know, or afraid to say I don’t know. So again, it’s something I model. I don’t know how this works. Someone explain. I see it all the time. And actually back in Kraft, one of the sales guys said to me, this is where I actually picked up on the power of this…One of the sales guy said to me, You ask a ton of questions. Oh my gosh, too many? He said: No, I’m just making an observation. Because I wanted to know the whole system of things. Even now, like corporate lawyers, because I always say, before I sign this, what does this mean? What does my signature mean on this?  And she says Jill, you’re the only person that I advise that actually, they go Yes, it’s okay to sign it. Okay. I go, okay. I know. Thanks for telling me it’s okay to sign and I do trust you.  AW: It’s not exactly plain language, right? JN: It’s not exactly in those legal contracts. What exactly is this document saying like in plain English? So curiosity is a big one. I tell anyone – just learn as much as you can, but you learn not just by watching but by also asking, AW: Your focus on curiosity and asking questions and replacing buzzwords with plain language reminds me a lot of my favorite professor on the planet, Jerry Zaltman. He’s Professor Emeritus now at Harvard Business School. Yes, these are all things that he repeated over and over again, I had the privilege of spending a lot of time in his office just, oh, he’s such a generous intellect. That’s, that’s how I describe him. He’s smart, but he’s so generous. And he advocates all of these things, Jill, that you’re talking about. JN: I Well, his book on metaphors is fantastic, deep metaphors. And anyone listening should be getting that book about communication, because we realize what the roots are. AW: I’m pulling books out of my bookshelf, pulling books out of it. JN: I But yes, I am a massive fan of his even before we spoke, I use his methodology of ZMET quite a bit about deep metaphors for brands because it gets into the underpinnings of what we’re really thinking. And so for me, you know, whether in a metaphor of container or a metaphor of balance, if you understand the deep metaphor underneath people or underneath their language, then you can use language more precisely. So I actually credit his work a lot with going to the root of what you’re saying. AW: Yep. Universal patterns. JN: I Exactly.  AW: So Jill, I’m really curious as you’re speaking, you sound so confident, and yet I know you’re vulnerable. And I, I kind of grew up with you at Kraft, so I know what it was like in that environment and learning the lessons that we learned collectively and individually there. I want to talk to you about confidence and imposter syndrome. So do you experience it? And specifically, I’m really curious, how do you boost your own confidence? JN: I It’s a wonderful question. And I think it’s an important one because that feeling of not enough is universal. And that could be in work or at home or in a relationship. Oh, my gosh, am I enough? But showing up at work with imposter syndrome? Absolutely. I had it. I don’t have it anymore. I can confidently say. Do I have self doubt sometimes? Yah. I’m like, ooh, shoot, am I ready? But imposter syndrome is a big one. And I had it. Yes. In my late 30s. It was kind of getting rampant because my career was going really quickly and jumping into new space. And I joined an advertising firm from being a director in North America at Kraft and I was now at an advertising agency. I’m like, What do I even know about advertising? I was like, going behind the curtain of Wizard of Oz. And like. Now I have no idea. You know, when Dorothy goes behind the curtain, and there’s this little man pulling all these levers and like, … AW: another perfect metaphor, Jill, thank you. JN: I am one day away from being found out that I don’t know anything. Wow. That’s literally how I felt. And then one of the partners said to me, what you have is imposter syndrome. I’m like, what, that’s a thing? I’m like, Oh, this is exactly what I have. I’m like, Oh, I didn’t know it’s a thing. AW: What a relief, right? It’s validating. JN: I So I was like, oh, okay, there’s comfort in numbers. But then, how do I get over this? I went back in my brain and picked up some advice that I got from a mentor when I was 30. And he said, find out what you’re uniquely good at, and make room to do that most often. So I’m going, with imposter syndrome, I took for granted what I was uniquely good at. What came naturally to me is a gift. I was just barely trying, it’s just the way my brain works. Isn’t it the way everyone’s brain works? No, it wasn’t. So like, Oh, I have unique gifts. Okay, so I need to,  I can’t have someone value something that I don’t value myself. So I had to go back to the way I can carve out a consumer insight or craft a brand strategy, that is a unique gift of mine. And I need to stand square in the acceptance of that. And so that was a big part of that. AW: So can I just ask you a specific question about that. I’m trying to think of how that would manifest. So for example, if you’re walking into a meeting with a bunch of senior potential future clients, right, and you’re feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome, like why are we even pitching on this? Or why do they think I’m the one when you say to yourself, I have this unique ability?   JN: Yes, so a couple things. Don’t take what your unique gifts are for granted. Back at Kraft our VP Carl Nanni, he, at the time when I cracked something really big. He wrote me a note, I still have it to this day, he wrote me a note. And he said, I wanted you to know that you are the best in Canada at crafting insights. It meant so much to me. When you give compliments to the person, we often give compliments about the person to somebody else, I’m really big believer in give it to the person. So he wrote that to me. And I remember the feeling it gave me was like, I know, Oh, wow. No, I am. But as like, who might have voiced that. So I went back in the box, and I went, Oh, my gosh, I have this. He said that and I knew it. And I still didn’t step into it. So I brought that back out, put it in my office, so I could actually look at it and really just as a touchstone, I am the best at this, that I was age 30 when he said that, I’m how old now… own it. And I’m only … you know, decades gone by. So I say I actually just step into my awareness. Meditation is a big one, because you get to block out the noise, all those jitters come up. And you can just meditate.  Whatever people want to do, you know. I do 15 minute… AW: Do you do guided meditation? JN: I do my own, Ziva meditation, so I can do it in a cab. I can do it in an airport, people can be talking at me, it’s it’s meditation for busy life, but acceptance. Step square into your gift, but accept that every one of us has a gift and find out what yours is. And if you don’t know, ask others not what you’re good at, but what you are uniquely good at and then free up time to do it more often, and it will blossom even further. I also before big meetings, I always like to do a huddle and we get the energy positive even on zoom before we do a big pitch. 10 minutes we’re going to edit to energetically bind ourselves together. We’ve got this. You have that feeling of invincibility because we know what we’re doing. And if you come in not so solid, you’ll get it from the others. And then the good old fashioned Amy Cuddy power pose has served me well.  AW: Exactly. Superwoman. JN: I had a really big talk I had to do in Cape Town. Really important. It was quite defining for my career, it would open up doors. And I did a full on like, arms out in the air, like you could not be bigger, be big and be bold, chest out, arms wide,… AW:  expansive. JN: expansive. And if you do that for two minutes, your brain will go Oh, okay. Okay. We’re confident. We always think it’s mind over matter. Sometimes it’s form will inform your confidence. So I, I do that, too. AW: Wow, I love your answer. I just want to touch on one thing when you were saying find out what is unique about you, and that you seem to do more easily that you may take for granted.  JN: Yes. AW: I’m encouraging my clients to actually email people. I encourage them to ask, what do you admire about Jill? And also, what makes Jill Jill? JN:  Hmm. Those are perfect. Those are great questions.  AW: I actually did it recently, I emailed 10 people because I was preparing for teaching some some senior women and I said I wanted to be able to tell them that I had done it recently, myself. And it’s it’s shocking how they’re consistent patterns from all of these diversity, different people about what they see about you. One more question before we move on to the five rapid fire questions. JN: Yes. AW: I can imagine that you probably get asked by your staff, and maybe people even outside of your organization for career advice. Do you have any advice that you find yourself repeatedly giving to people?  JN: Yes, I do. And I wrote about this one in particular on LinkedIn went like 70,000 views like, oh, okay, but what I said was, carry two notebooks. When I was 29, one of my mentors told me that and I do it to this day. Everyone knows I carry two notebooks. And one is for the tasks amd writing stuff. Yep, that need all your meeting notes, everything you got to do planning your day. The other one is for personal epiphanies. Because they happen all day and then you’ve put them in your other notebook they get lost in a sea of like 14 things I have to do today and and so I carry two notebooks. One is like for floors 1 and 2 of the apartment building. Yep, change the lighting and Yep, do this to garbage day, tomorrow, blah, blah. And the other one is like my floor 10 stuff. Somebody says a quote in a meeting, you’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s huge. Or read this…I mention the book, I should read that book, but it’s stuff that’s about personal growth and epiphany is put somewhere else. So then what I do I do often as I go through them, not caught in the clutter of things that might tasks that must get done. They become these beautiful volumes of growth, and reflection, and insight and awareness. That’s what I’ve been doing since I was 29. If I give one piece of advice. It’s keep two notebooks.  AW: Wow. You know, Jill, that is relevant for absolutely everyone. JN: Yes. AW: I really hope Jill, you may have considered this. But I hope that someday you can publish this list of personal insights, because I think it would be incredibly powerful. JN: Thank you. You’ve given me a thought maybe, maybe I will. Maybe I will.  AW: So you’re good at identifying insights you could do like the Pat Flynn thing – put everything out on post it notes , and you’ve got an outline for a book. JN: Yes, that’s a good one. So thank you. So my second piece of advice for people is to work on projects with senior leaders, there’s always a special projects that they don’t really line up with the org chart. Raise your hand for those get access to senior thought leaders. And what I tell people is treat them like professors in a class. People are going to call me to say will you mentor me. Instead just sign up for a project and you will work with me close up hands on in real time. That’s better than a Can I meet you for coffee for 30 minutes? Sure. But why don’t you just say, I’m working on a project with you. And that’s what I had in my career. I mean, Irene Rosenfeld. She met with us every Friday afternoon two hours for about two years. And I treated it like going to school, how does she talk? How does she question even? How does she present herself? Do you have to ask people to be their mentor? No. Just decide that they are your mentor. That would be a second piece is get close to leaders by saying, Yes, I’ll help you that project. AW:  Well, that’s great advice, because people can see that it worked for you. And it’s also as you said, uncommon. People are very apprehensive about going off the proven track, right, the expected track and you see this in accounting firms and consulting firms and agencies, there’s like a certain hierarchy that you have to follow and taking a side route can often propel you. JN: It propels you. You started at Kraft, and you went this way and propelled and I was starting at Kraft and I went a different way by working on projects and was working with Irene on CRM projects that completely transformed my career. And I remember a VP at the time said “for smart girl, you make dumb career decisions.”  AW:  Wow. JN: What do you mean?, and he goes, you’re always going off the trail. AW:  Wow. And look at you now. JN:  Do you think I want to be like the president of Kraft? I’m going where all the learning is. When I actually left and started an agency, that same VP emailed me and said, I never understood your career choices when you were at Kraft. I understand them now. AW: Wow… to your other point, you probably weren’t even conscious. It’s just what you do. You just do what Jill does. JN:  And I was drawn to it. So I just knew it was right for me.  AW: And now you’re sharing that with other people in terms of career advice, which is very generous. Okay, moving on to the five rapid fire questions here. And we are going to make these rapid.  JN:  Okay. AW: First, what are your pet peeves? JN: Entitlement. I can’t stand entitlement. AW: Oh, wow. I wish people could see your body language. She’s… JN:  It just it doesn’t… It doesn’t go well. No. AW: Okay. Second question. What type of learner are you? JN:  Visual? AW: Speaking of metaphors… you even talk visually! I think I think us marketers over-index on being visually oriented. JN:  Yes.  AW: …said the podcaster. Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert? JN: I’m an extrovert.  AW: There’s a shock! JN:  Everything is energy. Even our words. Everything is energy. So it’s like, even through a computer, you needed to get it out even more. That’s why … we can’t let the screen be the block of your energy. It’s just it’s just an obstacle. Yes, but everything is energy including how you communicate. And I am full body. AW: You know, I heard that. One thing to do if you log on to a zoom meeting early is to practice what frame you have – with your hands. So move your hands right and left and up and down. JN:  That’s a smart idea. AW:  and then use it like make it your challenge your your stage. JN:  Yes, that’s I’m gonna use that. I love that AW: the research shows if your hand goes off the side, it’s disconcerting for people because they want to they want to see what your hands doing. Right? So you’re out of frame.  JN:  Yes, I’m using that. Thank you.  AW: Glad you learned one thing here. Question number four. Communication preference for personal conversations. JN:  Yes, Whatsapp. I’m full on WhatsApp. And I use it to its full capacity. So I’m a big, big voice to text person. Everyone who knows me. I’m constantly dictating, but I use that. I also do video clips. I’m like, Hello, like, my daughter…. Everybody knows I’m WhatsApp and I’m voice and I’m video and lots of emojis. Anything that’s expressive. AW: Love it! Okay, last question. Is there a blog or podcast or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? JN: Yes, I absolutely love Dr. Chatterjee’s podcast, Feel Better Live More. Absolute go-to, he’s a functional medicine doctor in the UK, deeply empathetic. Like his empathy is his superpower. Empathy. He has a holistic view on health. So mental, spiritual, physical, and his guests are phenomenal. So Arianna Huffington, Dr. Gabor Mate, Peter Crone, Ester Perel, Matthew McConaughey, people who’ve done the work. And so he’s got four principles – sleep, relaxation, nutrition, and movement. So I talk about those with my team all the time. Yes. AW: Jill, I’ve really, really enjoyed this time. And I know we took more time than we planned. JN: You have amazing questions. AW: Is there anything else you want to add? JN: So if I was to leave your listeners with one thought about the power and importance of communication as a leader, I’d say this. Leadership is more than just telling people what to do, or telling them things, or directing them. Communication is key to that. You have to communicate the context of things, explain things to people, not just tell them what to do, but why are we doing it? What is your role in it? And where is it going? What are the dependencies because then people understand the importance of things. And it comes from a task and then it elevates the purpose. So when you communicate – context. Also know that catching people doing things right is so powerful. Send little notes, a quick text to say you noticed, and I’m so proud of you. And here’s why. So catch people doing things right. And again, be specific. I loved it when you did this, it had an impact on me of that. That goes so much further than any criticism. Third is help people find their voice. Think about when you were younger. I don’t know, it’s gonna sound stupid. Or maybe everybody knows this. Is everybody else thinking this? Is it just me? So what we can do as a leader – the one question that’s so powerful I find is, Andrea, what do you think? Seriously, what do you think? I’m curious as to what you think. You’ve got a unique point of view. So you’re saying as a leader is, I see you, I value you. And it also is an invitation that some people might need in order to say something. They may not know how to grab the mic. Sometimes you have to offer the mic. AW: Right. JN: I find that one question. What do you think? And then hold space and let them answer. AW: Well, Jill, thank you so so much, I was smiling the whole time. And I really, really enjoyed getting caught up and hearing some of your perspectives and insights and advice about leadership and communication. And I thank you so much. JN: You’re very welcome. This was a pleasure. It was such a pleasure to catch up with you. And your questions are brilliant. And what you do is important. Communication is a skill that we stumble into, and we rarely study it and yet it affects all of our lives. Yes, and we don’t study it. So you did. You studied it. And you’re bringing this to …you’re unpacking it and teaching people, so what you do is important. Thank you for that.     LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-4828-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-4828 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-4828 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-4828-0.panel-no-style, #pg-4828-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-4828-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-4828-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-4828-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-4828 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-4828 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-4828 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #76 LEADERSHIP: Communicate Like a Boss! PART 2 with Jill Nykoliation, CEO Juniper Park\TBWA appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Effective leaders communicate like a boss! Compassion, precision, and frequency of communication are just a few of the values that CEO Jill Nykoliation exemplifies and that she encourages others to embrace. This is part 1 of a 2-part interview. The 2nd episode (#76) includes a summary of both episodes.   RESOURCES  Jill Nykoliation LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillnykoliation/ Juniper Park\TBWA: https://www.juniperparktbwa.com/ Recommendation: Dr. Chatterjee’s podcast – Feel Better Live More Jill Nykoliation & Andrea Wojnicki Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Email – [email protected] Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk About Talk with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Jill, for joining us here today to talk about leadership and communication skills. Jill Nykoliation: It’s such a pleasure to be here, Andrea, thanks for having me.  AW: My first question is a big one. What is your leadership philosophy? JN: My leadership philosophy. I would sum it up as, don’t lead through a rear view mirror. Yesterday’s behind us, I tell my team all the time – Notice what’s ending and let it go. Notice what’s emerging and step into it. AW: Wow. So perspective, and being proactive, but also internalizing what has happened? JN: What has happened and letting go is a big part of leadership. I’m really big on let it go. You can’t step into the new when you’re pulling all the baggage of the past. And we have to move so quickly. Everything’s changing so quickly, that the less baggage you have, the less attachment you have to past ideas, or past identities, the faster you can move into the future. So I tell my team all the time, is just notice what’s ending and let it go. AW: I love that metaphor, I can actually imagine a team climbing a mountain, and they’ve got this big, heavy baggage. JN: yes.  AW: And their leader’s saying, drop the bag, drop the bag, like why are you carrying this uphill? JN: You’re actually making me think of this, I think it’s the movie Ants. They were going to a new anthill. And one of the ants asks, why are we carrying all this crap? Aren’t we just going to get new crap when we get there? And it’s true. It’s like, why are we pulling all this crap from one anthill to another? And my daughter and I laugh about it. Don’t bring everything forward, let things go and be grateful, is a very Marie Kondo. Thank you. You’ve served me. Well, I’m gonna let you go. AW: I love it, you’ve served your purpose. That’s what she would say, right? JN: You’ve served your purpose and be really grateful. And I find when you say thank you to things, whether its business models, or its team members, or processes, you leave the animosity, and you leave the resistance, and you leave the fear of letting go. You just consciously open up your hands and drop it.  AW: Do you have any specific examples? JN: Yes, I lead an advertising agency and communication is changing all the time. And so for us, letting go, let’s say of production methodologies, where it used to be big and polished, etc. It’s okay, sometimes you need that. But most times, we need a piece of content that’s going to be relevant for, I don’t know, three days. And so let go of the process that made a great big Superbowl ad, and actually let it all go. What do we do to create this content that only needs to be relevant for three days? That’s a lot freer, it’s a different budget. So instead of taking what you had and whittling it down, drop it in, create a whole new process. Or advertising used to always be you start with the insight, which is more of an ethnography type of understanding. But now data leads. And so let that go, don’t resist that. Going, actually, what if we got a brilliant team of data scientists in here? And then we’ll look for insights. So letting go of the way it used to be done. When you and I grew up at Kraft, it was all about the insight. Now it’s data leads. But again, let go of the way you learned things. AW: So as you’re describing that, I’m thinking of two things. One is that having this philosophy and encouraging your staff to adopt the same philosophy is enabling them and you to pivot – which is such an overused term. JN: … it really is. But we really are! I think pivot is overused, and people are just making steps. But we know we literally pivoted in COVID. We launched two new divisions, and our business had our best year ever. In COVID when advertising is being stopped, we had our best year ever. Because we truly pivoted into the new. AW: And the other thing that came to mind as you were describing this example was a growth mindset. So you’re also I think implicitly encouraging yourself and your staff to think of what’s next and what’s coming forward and what you can learn and first we need to keep in mind the consumer insights for example, right? JN: Yes, exactly. And so for me growth mindset – so many people have heard that, but they don’t actually know what it means, because they go: but I’m afraid to grow. And so finding other words, less buzzwords. Like just notice what’s ending and then … I’ll do this in a staff meeting. What do we think? Sending it into the chat. What do you guys see is ending? That’s interesting to see … Oh, yes, then they’ll go – this is ending. Okay. What do we see that’s starting? And then so … And meanwhile, you’ve got them in a growth mindset. Most people aren’t actually actively growing and those of us who embody it, we can throw the shorthand at people, but short hands aren’t clear for a lot of people. AW: I agree. cliches are powerful and dangerous at the same time. JN: Right, exactly.  AW: So if that’s your leadership philosophy, I’m curious if you may also have a communication philosophy. JN: Yes, I do. Funny you should ask. (haha) I’d say there’s three things. One is precision. And that’s the big one. I love to spend time on that.  There’s precision, compassion, and frequency. Those are the three I’d say, form my signature style, which I have found to be quite effective, especially in this moment, where we’re all virtual. AW: Can you describe or define what each of those elements are? JN: Yes. So precision with words, we need to be specific with our words, because our words form a narrative. And then we work to make that narrative true. And so if we’re lazy with our words, we blanket things like, I’ll never crack this. Like, really? Never? Like, never? Really? Are you sure? Like, are the clients always like this? Or this process is always so screwed up. Always. Never. The question I ask my team a lot, my daughter too, is, Is that true? That’s interesting. Is that true? It’s never like never gonna happen. Or always. So I don’t like extreme words, because it will rarely ever.. AW:  hyperbole is dangerous JN: That’s exactly it. All this is on my shoulders. Really? You’re the only one? There’s no one on your team that could absolutely can help you with that? We have a very familial, very collective culture. So when people say that, I go, oh, okay, is that true that it’s all on you? It might feel that way. But is it true? And is that the expectation? I use precision a lot. AW: And that’s obviously very powerful and important when you guys are creating copy. JN: Yes that’s true. We need to be precise when they’re writing words for a client. But it’s like the shoemakers, kids, when you use it for yourself, you get sloppy. So another thing is to be pithy. That’s something that I learned back when we were at Kraft, we had this facilitator, his name was Cavis and he had a rule. He said, Tell me the headline, and then you can talk as long as you want. And then when you had a crisp headline, you actually didn’t need to talk that long. But when you weren’t clear in what you wanted to say, Boy, you had a lot to say, walk it around, and people like, where are they going with this? And so again, when I try and write or when I speak, what’s the headline? So for example, I was on a panel the other day, and someone said to me, so, how’s your business doing? And I said we had our best year ever. And they go, why do you think that is? And my answer was, because catastrophe require sharpshooters. AW: Brilliant, wow. JN: This is a catastrophe moment, business wise. And my team is a team of sharpshooters. And I actually call them ninja navy seals, because I can’t decide which ones they are. So I put together navy seals, we are the elite team. Basically, you’re in a crisis. What our clients are saying is: get me out of this. We’re that team. So we’re doing extremely well in a catastrophe because this is the caliber you want. But that answer catastrophe requires sharpshooters, three words – it just said so much. So that’s what I mean by headlines. And then I can talk as long as I want. But I don’t know if I need to once you hear that. AW: I’ve told the story, actually, in some workshops, I learned that the hard way. When I was a doctoral student, and I had the opportunity for the first time to present my academic research to my peers and some faculty members. And I got up and I spent all this time with my script and my slides. And I started talking. And about 15 minutes in, one of the senior faculty members stood up and said, Andrea, why are we here? I was thinking, I don’t want to tell you because there’s a punch line. No, no, no, no, I learned that I really learned the hard way. Right there. And then and I use it now, whether it’s a podcast, whether it’s a workshop, even when I’m writing newsletters, like you tell them what you’re going to tell them, and then and then go,… JN: I was just working on this with one of my teams yesterday. When you work on a Keynote or PowerPoint, whichever form you’re using, Do not make the headline, a label. “Context.” “Agenda.” “Design system.” And like no! “The design system will evolve from last year in two specific ways.” AW: Oh, brilliant. JN: So reading the page is optional. If I just go through and read your headlines, I’ve got what you’re saying. AW: Brilliant. JN: Anything else is context. If you want people to get the point, then say the point. AW: It’s respectful to your audience, whether they’re listening or reading, whatever, it’s respectful of their time, right? JN: Yes. So that’s precision. Another communication philosophy I have is compassion. And I would say I lead from the feminine. I didn’t always do that. And it was brought to my attention four years ago. I made a structural change, and my coach whom I learned so much from. He was like, you know, Jill, now that you’re restructuring, it’s time to step into your natural style and which is… he goes, but you’ve been leading from the masculine. Because I grew up in a family of three brothers, you know, lots of boys in the house, the language of business is typically masculine, and an advertising is ultra masculine. And he said, “you’ve learned that’. That’s a learned language for you. But it’s not your natural language. And it was an epiphany for me, right? I’m not, that’s not my natural language. I did some really deep work to go, “Well, how do I show up naturally?” And once I gave myself permission to come as my whole self, my leadership took a whole new level. But also I dress differently, I show up differently. And my team just like, oh! And then my team’s performance went up to level two, because I came in my whole self, which means – because you know that people watch what leaders do. All of a sudden, I’m showing up as myself, which automatically signals they can show up as their selves. And then vulnerability just happens. AW: Wow, I have to say what you just shared with me, I’ve got the shivers, I, I’m working a lot right now on personal branding. And I’m encouraging people to step into what makes them unique. And I feel like if I had been a fly on the wall, when your coach shared that with you, and you said that you kind of had an epiphany, and you had to do some work, to figure out how to show up, that I have a saying that I share, which is unique is better than better. And so you were you grew up in a household, and then you were working in industries were better meant masculine. JN: Yes.  AW: And now you’re embodying your true, authentic, unique self. And, again, I got the shivers. It’s like your superpower. JN: Yes. And then advertising is very in-person. It’s a team sport, we put things up and we build and we touch. And now we’re doing that through screens…  You really need to reach into the screen and be compassionate through the screen. So a couple of examples that you say of compassion. I know you talk a lot about listening. And I love that, and how I phrase it, I kind of amp it and go, can you hold space for someone? Because a lot of people go Yes, I’m listening. They’re actually hearing. They’re not listening. AW: Yes. JN: And I love how you’ve talked about the two to one ratio, you have two ears and one mouth, and that’s the ratio you should use. So I use my phrase, holding space. Because those words mean No, hold the space, you’re going to hold a container. Really? And how did you get to that conclusion? How did that make you feel? Truly let them get it off their chest, and dimensionalize it. If you’re listening, you notice, you’re often listening to respond. But if you hold space, you know, my job is just to hold the space is just to keep everything from interrupting you, including myself. And I actually have a container. It’s right here.  Actually, it’s a clear container. Sometimes I go, Okay, put it in the box. Look at that thing. Let’s just talk about and I literally put it in the box for some people like no, no one’s touching it, we’re just going to hold space for it. And that helps some people understand what I mean. But when you hold space, and people feel heard, often they just go, do you understand what I’m saying? Is the client saying, I don’t like this for XYZ? I literally hold space. When you hold space, then you can get a clear picture. And then what you say back is so much more informed. You have a full picture. When someone doesn’t like what I’m what we’re presenting, I can hold space, because I’m so confident in what it is. But I can wait. I can hold my point. I can hold it for 20 minutes if you want. AW: So one question about compassion. And this may link back to what you were saying before about avoiding buzzwords and using a different word that may define what you really mean. What’s the difference between compassion and empathy? JN: Empathy for me is I literally I can feel what you feel.  AW: Okay. JN: And compassion is more Wow, I’m observing how you feel, that must feel horrible. Tell me more about it. Not everyone is empathetic. I am. I have to protect that because sometimes I don’t need to feel what everyone’s feeling. AW: Right. JN: But I also made an assumption that everyone can, but it’s like sympathy versus empathy are not the same thing. One is literally I can walk a mile in your shoes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. AW: And then that’s a bit of a burden. JN: Yes, it’s a burden.  AW: Yes, it is. JN: My empathy can be …I think all of us have superpowers that can have negative sides. AW: Absolutely. JN: Okay. And then the third part of my communication philosophy is frequency. Frequency is important because just because we say it once doesn’t mean people absorbed it. We have to have full context. And so repeating things. So frequency of make sure you say things, you’re consistent. Second by frequency, what I mean is I literally get in front of people often. This is new for COVID times. We talk to our team every single Monday morning for half an hour. Without fail. Never miss. I personally talk to the team every Thursday, without fail, never miss. And knowing that we have that drumbeat is really important. Professor Tom DeLong at Harvard drilled into us that ambiguity is always perceived negatively. And that’s what we do as humans – if I don’t know what’s happening, oh, why aren’t they telling us this? Like, I don’t know. I didn’t think you needed to know or I thought you already understood. For frequency, we literally get an ever go more than a few days. I go. Hi. There’s not much to share with you this Thursday. But I promised you I’d be here every Thursday. And here’s what I got. And so even if I have nothing to say I don’t cancel, I can say there’s no news No changes. So they can have assurance. What we do every Friday, we call it Pulse –  get the pulse. Every Friday, we text our entire team and say how did it go this week? Good or bad? Any comments? And then every Friday they have a platform to anonymously tell us how things are going. They can communicate to us. How’s it going? Could be oh my gosh, shout out to this team. Or you know what, my home chair is really uncomfortable. Is the company going to upgrade our home chairs? It could be anything. And then we share it Monday morning. We literally put the comments up. Okay. Okay, how are we trending? Here’s the thumbs up comments. Here’s the thumbs downs. And here’s the asks. And everybody shows up, because it really is anonymous. AW: Wow. JN: Criticism is a gift. Even if it comes out as – like someone said to me, or came up through the feedback. Jill’s positivity is toxic. AW: Oh, wow. JN: Right. Oh, but then I thought … okay, is it true? No. We talked it through. What is toxic positivity? And why am I positive? Like as a leader? I don’t think you need me to come up here on Thursdays and say this is really hard. That’s not helpful. It is hard. I’ll say that, but I won’t stay there. But what I said to them, I’m grateful that you said it. Behind every criticism is a wish. I’m finding this really hard and I’m overwhelmed. Jill’s making it seem like everything’s going well, it’s not. I don’t know how to ask for help. And I feel like I’m the only one. And then I leaned in and I said okay, everyone has my cell phone number. But let me give it to you again, everyone, grab a pencil, text me, call me. I don’t know who you are. I’m going to wrap my arms around you. Everyone, energetically let’s wrap our arms around each other. Give yourselves a big hug that what we’re doing is so hard. And one of us, some of us are struggling. Look into your circles, find out who they are and help them. So I literally talk that way. That’s compassion. But frequency, you never go more than four business. You can say it to your boss anytime. But if you find it something you can’t say, either it’s too small, or it’s too frightening for you to say ,you have the anonymous ,we call it pulse. I can’t imagine running a business without it. Now we’ve been doing it for a year. AW: So I was just listening to a podcast WorkLife with Adam Grant. And  JN: I love that!  AW: It was the interview with Brené Brown. And he talks about you know, in companies, they often provide for customers a suggestion box. Right now we need to have an internal complaint box, an issue box.  JN: And we have one! That podcast was fantastic.  AW: It is. So I wanted to ask you more about buzzwords. But before we do that you mentioned you know the effects of the pandemic and COVID and working from home a few times and and it sounds as if you had many of these philosophies and exercises and structures that you had created for your organization before COVID and maybe COVID. And the whole experience of working from home has reinforced the significance of these things. But is there anything that’s changed in terms of your leadership and or communication philosophy? JN: Yes. So I’d say I turned it from like a dial of 4 to like 9.5 Yes, we would have the Mondays we never had Thursdays too, and they’re different. One is Mondays is report back what you said, and Thursday’s is super personal. Thursday’s are intimate. I never did that before. I had everybody physically with me. And I never met them every Thursday, I have to say every Thursday, Why would they come? And I never got so intimate. They see me without makeup on. I actually I’ve talked about some ways how I’m coming in. I’m like, Okay, I’m coming in and I’m a four right now. And I’m but I’m here. I lost my energy today. And so, but we’re here, I let them see me not at my best. But I’m like – but we’re here and I’m gonna pull energy from you this afternoon because sometimes  you pull energy from me and I’m gonna pull energy from you … I was up all night helping my daughter with a biology exam and I’m like, I don’t know, I’m taking grade 12 biology all of a sudden, I’m exhausted. So I see my level of compassion is way up. Vulnerability way up. Frequency, I turned that up. And it’s going back to vulnerability. I named things. For example, one time I said to my team, alright, coming in like five today and I said, we went through the stage of adrenaline. Then we went to endurance. And now we’re in monotony. I think this is a late fall last year . We were in monotony. My executive team texted me and said, don’t name it! I’m like, no, I’m naming it.. So we’re going to talk about how do we stay inspired through monotony? My meals have gotten sloppy. I’m not dressing up for you guys anymore. I said, I’m just sinking into monotony. And I said, but people hire us to be creative, inspiring. So we cannot sink to monotony. We can’t. Our job as sharpshooters is to create brilliantly creative, persuasive answers. So how do you be creative when you’re bored, and you’re scared, and you’re numb? Maybe you’re feeling that too? Alright, let’s name it. And we can’t let ourselves go there. I never used to talk this way. AW: Do you tell your staff regularly where you are on a scale of one to 10? Like Brené Brown? JN: Yes! She said she comes home to her husband like, oh, we’re both at seven. Oh, we have a 30% gap. So I do. And I do that with my executive team. We meet every single day at 230. We never did that before. So nothing goes longer than a day. Yes. AW: I’m hearing a lot of inspiring messages for leaders. And for everyone, frankly, Jill, I’m really inspired by your self-awareness. And I’m really inspired by your vulnerability, as you call it. And as I’m sure as apparent to the people that you’re with, and then that has so many positive benefits for your organization, and then for your clients. And you said turning up the dial, and I am seeing a dashboard with all these dials with all of these philosophies that you’ve talked about. And you can turn them up and down. And right now, a lot of them are being turned up. JN: Yes.  AW: So there are so many leadership and communication buzzwords out there, right? We’ve talked about authenticity, but there’s resilience. There’s servant leadership, there’s inclusiveness, there’s optimism, there’s transparency, there’s a growth mindset. How do you as a leader navigate all of this advice and rhetoric? Because I know that you’re reading and you’re listening, and it’s really overwhelming. How do you decide what matters? JN: Such a good question. As we talked earlier, buzzwords are helpful short hands. But they also give us places to hide. And so what I try and do is not use them if I can. Again, back to my point about precision. Buzzwords usually aren’t precise. They’re fat words. They catch a lot of things. They’re bulky. And so I like to use plain language. And I learned this from my CFO at an agency I was at before I started this one. She wrote like no other finance person. She used such plain language. But I remember thinking, I so appreciate the way you’re writing. And she said, because I’m writing finance for creative people to understand. And so that imprinted on me to go What’s the clearest I can be? So short answer: I try to avoid buzzwords because they’re actually lazy. Precision is something I say to my team. There’s the butter knife. The steak knife. The scalpel. We are the scalpel. AW: Okay, Jill, I have to say that your metaphors are blowing my mind. Oh my gosh. JN: I say that, literally. And so we launched our precision marketing firm, we called it The Scalpel. And I say to my guys, this is called scalpel. We’re always pushing ourselves to be the scalpel. So let’s just call it that. Let us be the scalpel. But that’s what I mean by being precise. Buzzwords are rarely a scalpel. They’re usually butter knives. AW: It’s true. Like you said, use plain language. JN: Plain language. They say, Oh, we should be vulnerable, we should show up as our authentic selves. And it doesn’t seem vulnerable … Their mistake is they think that means being personal. Right? And vulnerability and personal. They’re two different things. AW: Yes, it’s orthogonal. So Jill, as I was sharing with you, I’ve been asked so many times what I think the number one most important communication skill is and I used to say quite easily listening. But over the last couple of years, actually, even before COVID started, I was hearing things from my coaching clients and from my podcast listeners that made me really think about this, I guess more completely and it’s not just listening. So now I say there’s three superpowers. Listening, storytelling and communicating with confidence. And there’s different reasons why each of those show up on my list, but I’m wondering, what do you think about this list? JN: Okay, so I love your list. And the way I hear those things, so listening we talked about I say that as hold space. Truly listen, so that that means like listen for it with a capital L. Hold space. Confidence, I love.  I would say that’s pretty much precision. Confidence builds when people talk with precision. You’re very confident. When you’re not confident you use lazy words, because you’re not really sure. You’re coming in like a butter knife. So I agree with confidence. Storytelling. Absolutely. AW: Yes, an advertiser, of course. JN: But you think about way back to the cavemen, they drew pictures on cave walls. And they told stories. Why? Because that’s how we remember things. We don’t really remember data points, but remember, you string them in a story we remember, or even my metaphor of a butter knife sticking your scalp like I say, \\ you should be precise with your words. Yes, when I put it in  a metaphor of like, a butter knife isn’t really cutting much. It’s a butter knife. It spreads things, you spread peanut butter. You’re actually not cutting much. When something needs cutting, you get the steak knife. And then, you know, I’m getting heart surgery, I want that guy to have a scalpel. I want them to be really precise. So I’d say storytelling, metaphors are helpful. Personal experience relevance. So putting yourself in a story. AW: universal truth. JN: So relevance is really important to storytelling, but I love your three, you said listening, confidence and storytelling. AW: Oh, gosh, I could I could talk to you about each of those three for an hour. JN: But I think each of those is a skill that you could do a whole deep-dive lesson on in communication. How many people listening on this podcast have actually gone to school on how to hold space for somebody? AW: Yep, exactly. You actually just made me think of something which is recently I’ve been talking to some tech entrepreneurs, and they’re talking about how the leaders of organizations that they’re talking to the tech leaders are saying that the skills that are needed in the workplace most are these interpersonal and communication skills, right? JN: So well, because it’s how you get the most out of everybody. And what my job is a leader is to communicate the vision. And but it’s also to make people feel safe. Because you can’t be brave, if you don’t feel safe. You can’t take risks. It’s hard to innovate if you don’t feel safe. I realized as a leader, when people feel safe, they go out and do extraordinary things. And then I take that as a big responsibility is how do I in this environment, all environments, but this one particular is like, Oh, yes, you’re right. I am studying, I am going to school and things because the softer stuff, gets people gets their guards down. It makes innovation happen. It makes collaboration smoother, because if we don’t trust each other, and we don’t feel safe, we don’t show up. Here’s a dumb idea. I’m not going to say that if I feel like I’m being judged, right? The CEO gets up and says, guys, I made a huge mistake. Or what I did, I snapped at somebody … I was just so frustrated. I waited a few minutes. I said, Okay, I have to stop the meeting. I was short with you. I’m so sorry. And they’re No, no, it’s okay. I said no, it’s not okay. Please don’t dismiss it as okay. I want to apologize to you. I want to apologize to everybody on this screen. That wasn’t kind, it was unnecessary. And it wasn’t anything you did. It was me. My frustration came out on you. And then on my Thursday, huddle, I talked about it – hey, I had this thing. And I threw my frustration on to somebody, and I apologized. And we thereby want to make sure everyone here knows that. I know it happens. I did it too. Let’s make sure we have it. We’re going to do it. Make sure we apologize as quickly to the incident as possible. Because we’re human. We’re going to do it. But that’s also like showing them It’s okay,  we can make mistakes. It’s not okay to do that. It’s okay to apologize.  AW: Wow, you’re creating an environment. That’s just so psychologically… I’m trying to avoid buzzwords when I’m around you. But it’s psychological safety. JN: That’s a motivator for me. Yes.  AW: So I have a prediction Jill. You’re going to be flooded with resumes after this. JN: We’re growing.  So I don’t mind.    THANKS for READING – and Talk soon!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   The post #75 LEADERSHIP: Communicate Like a Boss! PART 1 with Jill Nykoliation, CEO Juniper Park\TBWA appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Technology entrepreneur Robson Beaudry shares how we can use VR to practice and improve our interpersonal and communication skills. VR can accelerate and improve our practice, beyond alternatives such as role-playing or watching ourselves. Key insights include the power of meta-learning and the impact of listening versus talking… RESOURCES Robson Beaudry LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robsonbeaudry/ Twitter: @cavetocreation https://twitter.com/CavetoCreation.com Cerdio Recommendations: After Hours podcast Thinking Fast and Slow – book by Daniel Kahneman Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – [email protected] Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Book Andrea for a free 20min “communication skills training” consult Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Podcast episode on “What is Practice” with Dr. Nadine Kelly, YogiMD: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/72-practice-with-nadine-kelly/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you Robson, for joining us here to talk about how we can use technology to practice our communication skills. Robson Beaudry: Thank you, Andrea, it’s great to be here. AW: All right, before we get into the main topic, can you please share with us some background about your project that you just finished up? RB: Yeah, absolutely. So Cerdio was a venture I co-founded with a friend of mine. Essentially, when the pandemic struck, there were a lot of things going on, I was involved with the contact tracing initiative at MIT. And he got in contact with me and really said, Look, I’m talking to this company that works with a lot of medical laboratories, and they’re having a real difficulty with some of the digital transformations they suddenly need to make. So Cerdio was really a chance for us to come in and start to help these labs, which are absolutely key in the COVID testing process, do things around test booking, test verification, really important things for them. We been doing that for the last year, we were just recently acquired. So it’s been a great chance for me to not only continue to develop some of these entrepreneurial skills that I’ve been working on for a while, but also make an impact within the pandemic. AW: Wow, I just have to start by saying three things. Thank you for doing whatever you could do to basically help us combat this pandemic. Secondly, congratulations on the acquisition of Cerdio. And thirdly, I have to say, as a communication expert, it is not lost on me how much crafting it must have taken for you to articulate what you were doing with this complicated technology to explain it to someone like me in layman’s terms. RB: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, kind of any entrepreneurial activity or anything, when you’re doing something new, I think so much of what you do is just crafting that message over and over and over again. You’re just constantly explaining it to people, whether that’s your parents, or its investors, its potential new employees, its clients, you really have to find the exact words to use that make it really understandable in a few sentences. And certainly, it wasn’t something that happened immediately. AW: Well, I have to be honest, Robson, just hearing you say that it makes my heart sing, because and I’m also thinking in my mind of all the other contexts, where that is also true, right? It’s not just high tech, and VR and AI, but it’s even how we describe ourselves. When we’re introducing ourselves. It’s, it’s, you know, positioning a brand or a company, it’s all of the above. So we’re going to get more into watching our words and crafting our words in a minute. But let’s shift then to the fact that you’re now back to your plan A, your original plan for what you were going to be pursuing after you graduated. And can you tell us a little bit about the technology that you’re creating? RB: So one of the big things I did during my master’s degree was research around how we can use some of these up-and-coming technologies, VR, AR, AI, to really impact the way that we learn. And so one of the sub areas that I was really interested in was this area of what we might call interpersonal skills. And so how can we help people practice these skills, develop these skills, and really become better in a very consistent and scalable way. Part of that was a venture I founded while at Harvard called CollabReality. And so that was all about using VR as a way to practice a lot of these skills, with other employees, with managers, things like that. And so this is kind of as I’m finishing up this one chapter. It’s kind of an area I’m coming back to. And yeah, so when I say it’s a really interesting time to be jumping back in – the pandemic has changed so much about how we think about education, how we think about learning in the workplace, how we think about doing that remotely or in person. AW: Do you think that your potential future customers, and I guess, in the more short term, your investors are more open to these ideas? Because of COVID. And the impact it’s had on all of us working at home and working online? RB: I definitely think so. And I think, you know, the way I like to phrase it is the pandemic didn’t cause immediate change, but it’s accelerated a lot of these longer-term trends. And so it’s may not, it’s not necessarily the case that these institutions and these companies were immediately like, let’s change everything. But now they’re really thinking about it. And so that’s, that’s been driving a lot of change all over, whether that’s in a specific technology like VR, or it’s in just general digitalization trends. AW: So as you’re starting to describe to us this technology that you’re developing, I feel like there’s kind of three things that we need to get our head around. So one of them is VR. So if you could share with us a definition of that, but then just to give you a little taste of where I’d look, I’d love to head also just talking about learning in that invite in that high technology environment, right? Then the third thing is why interpersonal skills? But let’s take a step back. And let’s just start with VR, Can you remind us or for some of us introduce us to the concept of VR? RB: Absolutely. So VR virtual reality, the way I would define it is it’s a complete immersion within a digital environment. So as opposed to AR, which is about projecting digital models into a real-world context, VR is complete immersion. AW: Okay. RB: We might even break that down further into what’s called three dots and six dots. So three dots is you move your head around the environment tracks with you, you can look around this digital environment, six dots is kind of the next level of technology, it’s becoming more common. So that, in fact, practice you as you move around. So if you think you can walk across the room, you will walk through that digital environment. AW: Very cool. So how does learning intersect then with VR? RB: There’s a professor in Stanford called Jeremy Bailenson, who put it in a way I like.  He says virtual reality is all about the experience on demand. So if we think about the internet as providing information on demand, virtual reality can really provide experience with that same consistency and that same scalability. AW: Okay. RB: Now thinking about what is that really useful for, I mean, that’s, that’s one of the prime things that I was interested in. And so if you think about certain skills, where experience is just absolutely crucial, and you know, this brings us back to interpersonal skills. It’s not necessarily an information problem, but it’s often a problem of practice. AW: Absolutely, again, music to my ears. So is that the main reason that you decided to focus on that you were looking for? a subject area where you believe, and maybe based on research that practice really can elevate the learning experience beyond? I guess, just reading about it or just hearing about it? RB: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a combination. I was definitely interested in that. And it was also a matter of what I was seeing would be the most important skills for the future. And this was talking to academics. This was talking to top learning executives at BCG or McKinsey other firms, they’re all saying the same thing, right? Like, what skills do you think people are going to need the most. And again, again, it’d be interpersonal skills, its collaboration, its perspective, taking empathy, all of these things. AW: This reminds me of the conversation that I had with Professor Avi Goldfarb, who’s on the marketing faculty at Rotman at the University of Toronto. And we were talking about how so many people are really afraid of technology, because they just go to the point that the technology is going to be replacing humans. And he said, No, because there’s all of these skills that humans have the relationship building, the collaboration, and all these things that you were just mentioning, that are uniquely human, right, and where it’s more difficult, and maybe even impossible for a machine to adopt those skills. And yet, you’re saying that the machine the virtual reality, can help us improve those skills? RB: Absolutely. And I mean, this is I have an incredible respect for this kind of aspect of human communication. Like, it is so remarkable how complex it is. And what happens on a micro level when we talk to another human being, AW: you know, what I like to say is we’re all communicating all the time, sometimes purposefully, but mostly not. That’s my line. RB: So that’s it. And so it’s, it’s really a matter of, it’s not necessarily we can, on this ultra-granular level, just change someone. But it’s a matter of can we set up experiences that allow people to reflect, allow people to see things that they maybe didn’t before, and really start to move those communication skills forward? It’s a very difficult thing to do. AW: Is there a difference between interpersonal skills and communication skills? RB: Yeah, I think so. I think so when you get into the weeds of these definitions, and like I said, because it’s so complex, and we’re trying to use our logical brain to understand like, the larger part of who we are, which is this intuitive side of us. And you know, this is exactly the type of thing academics like to fight over. But for my own personal definition, I mean, interpersonal skills is the larger umbrella. Communication skills are really what happens exactly in that moment, when we’re communicating with another human being interpersonal skills are kind of like these larger habits and frames of mind that encompasses confidence in the wider view. AW: So I’m just trying to think of something that would qualify as an interpersonal skill that would not necessarily qualify directly as a communication skill. And I’m thinking things like relationship classifications. That kind of thing. RB: Yeah, absolutely. AW: Can you give us an example of how or maybe take us through a story of vignette of how this might work interacting with your VR technology? RB: Yeah, so I’ll give one example of a simulation we created. And so we were really interested in perspective taking. This is very important with the diversity of people in the workplace today, very important with the different teams and how they need to work together. So we created a simulation, one person with VR one person without. And so these two people are seeing completely different things. Each one has a piece of information, and they need to solve this puzzle. And so it’s so interesting, the type of things that come out from this. Yeah, and I won’t go too deep into it. But you know, the realizations that come afterwards ended up being the most interesting part, we had two people in at once kind of feel would work closely together before, and they came out. And one of the people said to the other one, wow, I just realized, like, I was telling you everything I was seeing, and I never once asked you what you are seeing. AW: empathy. Wow. Right? RB: So it’s a pretty powerful realization that you’re probably not going to get by just saying, you know, perspective taking is important. AW: When you were describing that you said, when these participants are in it, can you share with us? What does that mean? Like, physically? What does it mean? RB: Yeah, I mean, in terms of the VR technology, in it means you are looking around and you are seeing this digital environment around you with a headset, you have a headset on, you have, in this case, you had two controllers, so you could pick things up, you could, you know, walk towards the table, walk away from it, look around, pick things up, look over. And so it adds such a layer of difficulty. You know, you can do a lot with role playing exercises, but there’s this realization, like, it’s not real. Whereas your brain really thinks it’s real when you’re in VR. AW: Wow, wow. That’s just amazing. And so and so just to clarify, it is not cartoon, this is live action. This is a world that you’ve created. RB: Yeah. So there’s actually two types. So there’s what you might call like, live action, like you said, people have a 360 camera and record that. And then you can go through that. That’s not my preference, just because it’s actually not interactive. So you can look around and see in this 360 environment, but you can’t actually walk up to something you can’t pick anything up, because it’s just a record. Right? So in the experiences that I’ve created, it’s 3-D rendered. So you can think of like a video game or like you said, an animation. So it is animated that it can be in a way that’s more photorealistic or not… AW:, as video games can, right? RB: Absolutely. AW: Very cool. And, and so there would be another. I don’t know, I don’t want to call it player but another participant in the virtual reality world with you? RB: So some of the one of the simulations we created, both people are in headsets, they’re in the same environment. This particular one I described, one person is outside, they’re just sitting in a chair and just looking at a piece of paper where their clues are, and the other person is within the virtual environment. AW: There’s what are the what are the clues. RB: So these two people, we tell each of them, you’re going to solve something which requires you to collaborate, and that’s all the information we give, okay, one person goes in the headset, they find themselves in this digital environment, there’s trees, a little fire, there’s a table and with a little placard that says, work with your partner to solve this puzzle. And what they see is a bunch of little squares with symbols. They don’t correspond to anything in real life, but there’s symbols there. And then they have to put that symbol into a two by three grid, but they don’t know how, and they don’t know why. And they don’t know how these relate to them. Okay, meanwhile, the person outside of VR is sitting there, they’re given a piece of paper that also has some symbols, and they’re in the form of equations. Okay? Now, the trick is to realize that person with a piece of paper, their equations are going to tell the other person how to put the symbols on this two by three grid. Wow. So, but it’s amazing how challenging that is, because we haven’t told them anything beforehand. They really have to communicate with each other about what they’re seeing, and make that connection and that jump, and also try and communicate what these symbols are, because they don’t correspond to anything in the real world. So it’s an incredibly challenging exercise, and one that requires a huge degree of perspective, communication, and empathy, in order to successfully complete. AW: so I was just trying to imagine myself in that situation, and the first thing that came to my mind was, we would all be tempted to describe what it is that we see what it is that we personally are experiencing. But what might be more helpful to actually advance in the collaboration would be to ask questions. And that goes back to your point where you said, when they take the headsets off, they have this epiphany like, wow, I was telling you and I should have been asking you, right? RB: Absolutely, you hit it right on the head. And it’s so easy when we’re in, you know, whatever the situation we’re in, to only think about what’s in that situation and just try and like for someone else to see what we’re seeing, rather than trying to make the step of understanding? AW: Well, you know, there’s this default in communication that people really think about projecting, instead of listening and interpreting. So that is absolutely brilliant. Are there any other sort of epiphanies that commonly are articulated by your participants in these exercises? RB: I’ll share one other interesting thing that came out. You could really see differences when we had people who are of different ages are from different cultural backgrounds. And so particularly, they had to describe these symbols, what someone might see as a metro symbol, because it looks kind of like the subway sign from the city where they’re from the other person might see as the Mario symbol. So it’s like making those jumps are much more difficult. When I had two people who were in their 50s, who were both scientists, they could actually really go back and forth, very efficiently. When I spread that out someone from Turkey, in their 20s. And someone from India in their 60s, trying to communicate, the difficulty ramps up. And so it really shows how challenging it I to work with, you know, diverse teammates, it requires that extra level of empathy, that extra level of perspective taking to make it work. AW: That is, that’s a fantastic insight as well. So it’s understanding the other person’s context, and then shifting your lens and your communication style, so that it fits with the other person so that it’s meaningful with the other person, right, so that you can build on each other’s perspectives and ideas. And, and it might go back to what we were talking about, at the very beginning, when you were describing the other technology that you were working on. Sometimes, when our perspectives or contexts or lenses are so different from the other person, we just have to go down to basics, right to layman’s terms. RB:  right AW: So I guess, fundamental to your technology is sort of a core belief that by practicing your skill over the longer term, it will change and be improved. RB: Yeah. And I think that’s absolutely the way I think about learning. In general is it’s kind of where information, community and application meet. And so you really need that application part, to learn anything. And practice looks different in different contexts. So, you know, if you’re trying to learn a foreign language, you need to learn the vocabulary. And that’s actually like a pretty linear thing. It’s just about exposure, and you can kind of efficiently just go through that. But what you see with a lot of people who have learned in a classroom, when they get into a conversation, suddenly it doesn’t work. So there needs to be that wider exposure as well. You need to have conversations with people to get better at having conversations. So, you know, there has to be a combination of different parts of practice, and there needs to be, I guess, there needs to be experienced, there needs to be practice that is similar to how you’re going to apply it in the real world. AW: I agree. 100%. And then I would add, also an opportunity to reflect on what you did, right? What you could do better, and then the discipline, just take that reflection, and use it next time. It’s really, really tough, but it’s, it’s worth it. Right? Obviously, you wouldn’t be doing this and I wouldn’t be doing this. RB: Now, what we what we would call meta learning in the learning science, so so important, right? And, you know, it comes back to really taking responsibility for your learning, for getting better. AW: we share that, that perspective. And I appreciate that so much. So what what’s the status in terms of the short term, and then your long-term vision for this technology? RB: You know, it’s a great chance to look at this technology, look at this experience and kind of see how does this fit in with the post pandemic environment. And so I think for me right now, finding a way to contribute to some of the enterprises and initiatives that are really making a big difference in the post pandemic environment. I think it’s exposed a lot of the issues, the cracks in the system that were already there. So I think a big part for me right now, and we’re kind of wrapping up this acquisition though, it’s a chance for me to look where can I contribute my skill set my abilities, my knowledge to really help with the overall picture? Because long term I you know, the way I envision the future is really one in which this ability to learn, this ability to practice, is very accessible, very effective. Ultimately, it’s just so important for us to think in terms of equity. That that piece needs to be there. And I think technology is going to play a really big part in that. AW: It’s huge. It’s huge. I applaud you, I encourage you, I celebrate you. I think your ideas are fantastic. I’m so excited to see what you’re going to do, Robson, is there anything else before we move on to the five rapid fire questions? Is there anything else you want to add about practicing specifically in this context of interpersonal skills and VR technology? RB: I think practicing is interesting in the sense that sometimes it’s just about shaping the path in a way. It’s about thinking about your day-to-day life, and how that can be integrated in what you do on a daily basis. And so it might be something as simple as I’m going to make that extra bit of effort to go to this networking event, I’m going to make this extra bit of effort to connect with some people in my network, and really try and listen and be very purposeful about that. I think, you know, as much as I love to talk about technology, and I’d love to talk about what it can bring, ultimately, it’s just another tool. And so, you know, the way we learn, and we practice, it always comes back to this human level of what we bring in our day to day life. AW: It sounds like your perspective is fundamentally grounded in a growth mindset. Right? You’re not just your technology that you’re developing, but your whole persona. RB: Thank you. Yeah, yes, I think it’s, it’s, it’s an absolutely crucial thing. And you know, both personally and in my line of work. AW: so I love that you recognize that as a compliment. It definitely is a compliment. Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? RB: Absolutely. AW: Okay, question number one, what are your pet peeves? RB: Oh, one that I have right now is people who throw their masks on the ground. I’m just seeing all this garbage. On the streets. AW: You’re right. They’re tossing them. That’s not cool. Question number two, what type of learner are you auditory, visual, kinesthetic? This is a really interesting question for somebody who’s working in VR. RB: certain of my professors, when I was standing in the space really considered this as a debunked theory, but it is, like widely believed. But I mean, I definitely think there’s certain ways I prefer to communicate, depending on the context. You know, if I’m getting just sets of facts, I absolutely just want to see those written or a chart or something like that. Very visual. AW: As opposed to listening to them in a podcast or, you know, in an audio book, for example. RB: Right, right. So if I’m doing something really fact based. But if I’m just if it’s a little fuzzier, if I’m getting to know a person, or just getting to know an idea, I tend to prefer an audio format, I tend to find that human warmth comes through a lot more clearly in an audio format. AW: That makes sense. Question number three, yeah. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? RB: Yeah, I’m definitely an introvert. And it’s kind of funny, you know, going through my graduate degree, people tend to think of me as very extroverted. But I think the thing that really gives it away for me, if I come back from the night of networking, a night of meeting strangers, even a phone call with someone I don’t know, I feel really tired. Like, it’s a big energy expenditure for me to constantly be introducing myself in meeting new people. AW: So you and I met during an online networking event, and afterwards, I was on fire. I was like running around my house, and I had a big smile on my face. And you were like, Oh, it’s time for a nap. RB: Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s funny. But you know, something like this, I find this much more energizing. It’s one-on-one, you know, we’re talking about something I find really interesting and really compelling. AW: Yeah, well, that’s good self-awareness. Now, question number four. Do you have a communication preference for your personal conversations? RB: Yeah, I’m glad you asked this, because I feel strongly about it. For me, I’m on like the tail end of that time before cellphones became prevalent. So as a kid, you know, I was still in that environment where you call your friend’s house, you awkwardly ask their mom if they’re home and like, you figure it out. And so I still have an idea of just like, when you want to talk to someone you just call them so for my close friends. I mean, I always tell them always open. Like if you want to talk, don’t bother sending a text message. Just call me. I much prefer to talk over the phone. I find it. Yeah, just that much more human and meaningful. Ideas are exchanged in a much more interesting way. Like it’s, it’s just more intuitive. More open to possibility AW: more organic? RB: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. AW: Okay, last Rapid Fire question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? RB: Hmm, I think so. There’s two I’m gonna put out there. The first is a podcast that I’ve been enjoying. It’s from the Harvard Business School. It’s called After Hours. Yeah. It’s just three professors and they’re just talking and it’s just very interesting like your AW: Is that the one with Younge Moon? RB: Yeah. AW: I used to work with her actually. She’s phenomenal. Yeah, she’s an award-winning teacher. She’s fantastic in the classroom. RB: I can only imagine. Yeah, that podcast is excellent. And the second, it’s not a podcast or newsletter, but a book I’m reading right now, fairly well known, I guess, like Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. AW: It’s right behind me! I’m pointing at my bookshelf…. RB: Ha! But it’s just so great in terms of, again, on this topic of communication on this topic of how we think, just yeah, phenomenal book. AW: Yeah, it really I guess illuminates biases, right, that we have. And the, I guess, scary and kind of sad thing is, the research shows that even when we become aware of these biases, apparently, we still revert to falling victim to them. Yeah, put it to put it in simple terms. But you know, I choose to be a little bit more optimistic about our opportunity to learn like if we truly understand the phenomenon, we just get to the whole point of this interview, if we just practice, right, and we’re self-aware, and we put ourselves in the situation, we experience it, then we can hopefully overcome some of those biases that are not helping us. RB: Yeah, yeah. And there’s a lot of interesting work with companies through virtual reality right now on combating bias, and definitely, I’m sure that’s one of the big use cases being used right now for the technology. AW: Yeah, that’s great news. Thank you so much, Robson, for sharing with us your thoughts about how to use technology to practice our communication skills. I learned a lot. I learned a lot and I’m feeling inspired about the future. Thank you. RB: Thank you so much for having me, Andrea. I really, really enjoyed this conversation.   THANKS for READING – and Talk soon!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]     ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   The post #73 Practicing Communication Skills with VR Technology – with Robson Beaudry appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How can we be authentic without sharing TMI (too much information)? How can we be transparent, bring our “whole selves” to work, without appearing unprofessional? Copywriter and messaging strategist Tom Megginson encourages us to be authentic, but focus on our audience.  Code-switching and filtering are two ways to maintain authenticity without compromising professionalism.   RESOURCES TOM MEGGINSON LinkedIn profile – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommegginson/ That’s a Good Story – thatsagoodstory.com PERSONAL BRANDING & AUTHENTICITY 1997 FastCompany article by Tom Peters Podcast – How to Communicate your Personal Brand Online Podcast – Optimizing your LinkedIn Profile Podcast – Choosing the Ideal Media Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – [email protected] Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT: Personal Branding, Authenticity & TMI with Tom Megginson Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Tom for joining us to talk about personal branding, authenticity and TMI. Tom Megginson: Thank you very much, Andrea. AW: As I was explaining to the listeners, we recently met on LinkedIn, and you responded to a post that I created about how to communicate your personal brand online. And you actually took the time to write a comment that ended up leading to this interview. I’m just going to read the comment here quickly. So you said: “my personal brand is just the professional face that I’ve always shown to the world, now a bit more worn and wise than when I began my career in the 90s. Deciding what to show of myself is easy. What’s important, in my opinion, is to always ask oneself, is this TMI? And is this relevant to my audience? So we’ve all seen or heard TMI, and we know it when we see it? But what is TMI? TM: Well, it’s an interesting one, I’d said two things. There’s TMI, and there’s is this relevant to my audience?. And I think the latter one is probably more specific. Too much information means different things to different people. But what I’d like to start out with is to say – “is this relevant to my audience?“ is probably the number one thing that people should keep in mind. It’s really easy for us as human beings, when we’re in a one to one communication, even on a video screen here, as we’re having this interview. And to take the cues from the people, even when you’re doing public speaking, you see the people you’re talking to, you can tell if they’re bored, you can tell if they’re hanging on your every word. On social media you don’t see the people you’re talking to. And it’s very similar to me, to the way that we approach advertising. So I’ve been in advertising and copywriting for 30 years now. And in doing that, you’re always thinking about an audience, you can’t see. Because you are speaking on behalf of a brand, you’re speaking on behalf of a company as CEO, that kind of thing. And not being able to see the audience, you have to visualize the audience. And this is something that’s second nature to those of us who do this for a living, but it’s not necessarily second nature to everyone else. And so if there’s one thing I wanted to get across, it’s the idea of your audience and knowing your audience, knowing what their prejudices are, is going to be key to you getting what you want from them. AW: I love your answer. First of all, the TMI that too much, maybe a bit of a misnomer, right? Because it’s not about quantity, it’s about the substance or the content of the information. So that’s a great point. And also your point, which I’ve been saying in a slightly different context, when we’re thinking about our personal brand, we can take a lot of learnings about product branding. And you’re saying, here’s an example of that. Actually, when we’re managing a product brand, we’re always thinking about the audience and presenting ourselves for the audience, the consumer, the customer, whereas for ourselves, we’re not always doing that. So I think that’s an excellent point. And we should be doing that. So is TMI, always a bad thing, though. And speaking for myself, but most of us have been situation where we’ve said something and then gone. Oops, I think that may have been TMI it can we turn it into something good. TM: I think it depends once again, on the audience’s definition of TMI. So there are times when it’s a good idea to make an audience uncomfortable, and get them out of their comfort zone. An excellent example is talking about mental wellness, and people saying they need help. Maybe their only network is an online network, including even LinkedIn. So and ask for help on LinkedIn, there might be some who consider that TMI, I don’t, I consider it very relevant. Other things when people talk about racism, experiencing racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, you know, we’re trying to have a civilization here. And we’re trying to stamp these things out. So personally, on my personal brand, I don’t mind making people uncomfortable about that. But there are other things that do make people uncomfortable. One of the big ones for me is about how a person shows themselves online, both in words and images. Generally, I find it has to do with the person’s age, although not always, people seem to blur the lines between the different social media. You know, if you go back to some of the earlier blogs, those were about confessional, you knew that your audience was your peers, we were psychographically aligned. You could be a little more unguarded. Also, I mean, things like Instagram, they’re fairly private, you know, you can control who sees what you do, right? When you get into LinkedIn, which is where we met, and which is what I’m mostly thinking about here. It’s very hard to control the sharing of your voice and image on LinkedIn. You can control who you’re connected with. But if the people you’re connected with comment on your post, like it, engage with it in any way, it often shows up in the most unlikely places. Those are the times when I think that as you are dealing with an intergenerational audience, you have to be or you don’t have to be, you might want to consider being cautious about playing into their prejudices about generational stereotypes. For example, I’ve seen some really great thoughts put out there by young entrepreneurs on LinkedIn, but they usually include a beauty shot of themselves. Sometimes the guys are flexing, the women are pouting, it’s appropriate for their generation, right? I’m absolutely not saying this is inappropriate. What I’m saying is, once again, know your audience know that if you’re totally comfortable with that being the brand that is seen by your potential employers by your mother, you forgot that was linked to you go for it, you know, fill your boots, as they say, in the Maritimes . But at the same time understanding your audience’s biases, you can make sure that the message that you’re presenting that you have control over that message, AW: which might not be possible to your previous point, right. Okay, there’s so much to unpack there. Let’s talk about the age thing across generations. So I had this experience actually just a couple weeks ago, where a friend, actually a professional colleague of mine, was posting photos of herself wearing a bikini. And another one of my friends who’s a little bit older said, Wow, that is just shocking that she would do that. And I, I said, You know what, you’re not her target market. Like, this is this is her talking to her people. And she’s a very healthy person, and she was showing her beautifully healthy body. So why do you think it is that Gen Y and Gen Z are so much more open and prone to what we Gen Xers you and I might say qualifies as TMI? Why is that? TM: Well, it’s interesting. I mean, working with market research, I realized that demographics are necessarily stereotypes. And stereotypes are both bad and good stereotypes allow us to code switch and be able to speak to people in their language, in a way that, like I said, is relevant to them. I just wanted to preface that once again, saying I’m not shaming or blaming anyone for their age or definitely not for their cohort. But there are clear demographic stereotypes that we see. They don’t apply to everyone, but they’re generalizations and I’m 50 years old. I’ve been actually writing professionally for 30 years now. I have worked with five generations. So the silent generation, my mom’s generation, the boomers, Generation X, which is mine was born right in the middle of that cohort, millennials. And now Gen Zed, whatever you want to call them. My son’s one, I have a teenage son in that generation. There are stereotypes that don’t apply to everyone, but which are studied by marketers. So if you look at the oldest, the silent generation, they are very formal. My former boss was one of them. They’re very formal, their suit and tie. They’re very guarded, extremely guarded. Their professional face is very much contrived. It’s conformist when that was reinforced. AW: Right, if they didn’t do that you would be penalized somehow. TM: Yeah, absolutely. We’re talking about the 50s and 60s here, then the baby boomers get to be more laid back you have Richard Branson cutting people’s ties off, because he didn’t think it was appropriate to have a tie. And there are a lot of stereotypes about being cool. You know, um, you know, riding a motorcycle, wearing jeans to work in this kind of thing. But my own experience with people born in the post war era, and you know, up till Beatlemania is that they are still very guarded. Some of the generational research I did for a client once they were talking about how, if you’re a baby boomer in office, you should be the first one there in the morning. And the last one who leaves how that is translated to what I’ve seen in my own career, is people are very shy about being vulnerable, or called out about saying the wrong thing about saying anything vaguely political. And this is the irony, right? Because we’re talking about the generation who were hippies or the me generation of the 70s. Anything that causes you to stand out is to be avoided. You know, it’s that that thing of the nail that sticks up? AW: Yep. Or the tall poppy syndrome, if you stand up, you’re gonna get chopped down, right? TM: Yeah, that’s it, tall poppy. Yeah. So fast forward, people born in the late 60s and 70s, even up to 1980. Then Generation X the stereotype of our generation is cynicism. The stereotype of our generation is a certain anti authoritarianism, I would say. So we’re kind of in between course, every generation thinks it’s all about them. But to me, we’re the ones who really needed to learn what I mentioned earlier, which is code switching you In the boss’s office, you sit up straight, you speak formally to them. You are in a the office of a fellow Gen Xer, you got your feet on the desk, you’re slouching in the chair, you’re you know, whatever. And then the next generations come along. It’s not that they’re fundamentally different people, it’s that their cultural experience of growing up has been very different. So when you get into the Millennial generation, they grew up in a different environment, their parents were boomers, their parents were very old Gen Xers early Gen Xers. AW: Yeah. TM: The thing is, they grew up in a very different era, culturally, there’s this idea of protecting children of encouraging children, which is great, but the negative stereotypes people make jokes about participation, medals, right? jokes about not keeping score, and soccer games, the stereotype says that people have been told you are awesome, nothing that you do is wrong. So while our generation was busy trying to be cool to the millennials and be formal to, to the boomers, we had folks coming in, who immediately expected to have things be about them, which is great. I mean, I’m not gonna say anything bad about that. But at the same time, I did find that people were, in general, less able to take criticism. And that, to me is a red flag. Because what that red flag says is that it’s going to be harder to learn how to adapt, how to fit in, not to conform, but how to adapt to different people. Anyway, so here we are today, you know, the new generation coming up, you know, the oldest of them are in their 20s now, but there are things that I don’t really have a problem with, but don’t speak to me, like inspiration posts, validation. And by validation. I don’t mean, you know, you’re validated because you’re a woman or because you have a disability. I mean, just, I’m not feeling great today. Can you tell me how great I am. And I see that more on Twitter, but it bleeds over into LinkedIn. AW: I’m just gonna say I’ve seen that on Instagram. It’s an interesting phenomenon. TM: Yeah. Well, it’s a culture and there’s no right or wrong culture. But this is where we get back to the audience. For example, I am a guest lecturer at colleges sometimes, and I will say to the students, hey, you know, you want to get networking, send me a connection, I’ll connect with you, you know, because I can give you start. And so as soon as they’re connected to me, they’re also connected with those five generations. They are connected to people all the way up into their 70s. It’s not, I’m not saying to them, stop being yourself. I’m just saying be aware of that. I was talking to someone the other day, and it occurred to me, I don’t think that personal branding is a construct, I don’t think we construct our personal brand. What we do is we filter it. That’s a really important differentiation for me, you know, I try to be authentic all the time. I filter myself, I’m different on Twitter than I am on LinkedIn, I have filters, I have a client filter, I have a talking to students filter, I even have a filter for talking to people of different ages, because I have to be aware of a 50 year old white man, you know, I reek of privilege, I want to filter that with at least some kind of acknowledgment of self awareness. So filter sounds funny now thinking about like Instagram and tik tok and that kind of stuff. Talking to judges like a cat. But you know, but I mean a literal filter, I mean, not showing 100% of yourself to everyone, because you can’t do that. Anyway, we do it in real life. We do it when we’re visiting our parents, of course. And being with familiar coworkers is not the same as we’d be at a professional mixer, which is what LinkedIn is. So that’s what’s really important to me, it’s just get the filter, right, figure out who your audience is. AW: That reminds me, I have to tell you this quick story. I was on LinkedIn, I think it was about three years ago, at the time. And still now I’m also a painter. And so a lot of my connections on LinkedIn are also our artists, and many of them are marketers. And I remember this experience I had where one of the marketing professors that I follow posted a really cool video, it was like a visual puzzle. It’s hard to describe it. But the video ended up showing something that wasn’t what you thought it was. He had like 2000 likes on it or whatever. And I thought that’s beautiful and insightful. And it’s creative, and all these things. So I reposted it, and I got some likes and some positive comments. And then this guy lambasted me who I used to work with, like 15 years ago, and he said in the comments publicly to me, he said, shame on you, Andrea, you should know, this is not Facebook. This is not Instagram. This is not where you post your pretty pictures. And so I immediately went into messaging privately and said, great to hear from you. Thank you so much for your comments. By the way, I’m an artist and I’m still a marketer, and as far as I was concerned this is relevant to both of those audiences. And by the way, I don’t know if you noticed this, but it was originally posted by a professor and liked by 1000s. And I don’t understand what the issue is. But I respect whatever. And then he lambasted me again. So I blocked him. TM: Well, at that point, I mean, at the end of the day, you can scroll on. You can move on. I think there’s starting to be a change of conversation on social media about this saying, you know what, just because someone’s wrong in your mind, you don’t have to engage them. I would say the example you’re giving that’s out of line. Once again, I mean, do what you want to do have the brand that you want. I have friends who, their business is fitness, their product is their body, I get it. Or other, you know, artists, absolutely. They want to show their art photographers, sometimes the photography is a little saucy. Okay, that’s okay. That’s their bread and butter. Right? That’s their brand. If they’re showing a bunch of saucy photos, they’re probably not looking to photograph a stodgy CEO. AW: I love your comment, I have to say you’re going to be quoted on this the filtering, filtering like I am, who I am, I am authentic. This is 100%. me, but I am filtering. I think that’s really an empowering perspective, right? Because it’s not changing who you are. But it is filtering what part of who you are, you’re sharing with the different audiences. And I also love your comment about code switching across generations. And I’ve, I did some previous podcasts and newsletters on choosing which media is appropriate. And then I got all sorts of emails from listeners and telling me stories about you know, like, an older gentleman sent me an email, and he told me the story about how he had a big contract to award and he told the sales guy like three or four times, Call me, call me and the guy kept emailing him back and emailing him, what else do you need to know? What else do you need to know? And he’s like, this is the last time I’m saying this, pick up the phone and call me. And the guy never did. And he just he awarded the contract to someone else. So part of it is you know, your personal brand and what you’re sharing about yourself, but then this code switching between the generations even not just what you’re saying, but how you’re saying it across what medium, right? TM: That’s exactly it. I mean, we all make mistakes, right? We feel strongly about something and we make the comment, we probably shouldn’t. And that’s where the filter breaks. Oh, geez, I just put that on LinkedIn. AW: I was just gonna ask, do you have any stories? TM:  My mistakes are usually about expressing an opinion without thinking of the audience that are receiving the opinion and how they form ideas about me, I live in a world of NDAs, non disclosure agreements. So I’m used to being under a regime of having to watch what I say. But at the same time, I mean, sometimes we just get mad. And I would say, that’s where I need to, you know, mend the filter is sometimes I you know, might speak out of turn or that kind of thing. Of course, the thing is, every time you do it, you learn. And you know, the best thing your friends can do for you is give you feedback privately. AW: Yeah, feedback is such a gift, isn’t it? TM: It is and especially through your peers telling you and being more open to vulnerabilities, you also adapt, and everyone adapts. Like 10 years ago, I can’t imagine somebody talking about their struggles with depression. And now you can talk about something like that. And people are like, you’re so great. Good for you. Yeah, I’ve struggled with that as well. AW: I’m nodding my head. Sorry, I just had to jump in and say …. I interviewed Nicole German who founded the Maddy project, and it’s #shinebright. And her daughter died of suicide. And she’s all about talking about it talking about mental health and, and you know, inviting the kid who lives three doors down who always seems to be alone over for dinner and talking about mental health openly within your house and with your friends. And it’s amazing. It’s that’s an interesting point. It’s not just generally that we are becoming more transparent, maybe the filter is widening for the younger generations, right? But also there are topics specific topics that we are much more open about than we used to be TM: It’s great, isn’t it? Like they’re affecting us all. They’re moving it, they’re moving it up the generations. And so there’s the positive effect of people being more open and more vulnerable. I mean, that’s, that’s wonderful. It is. AW: So I attended an online Women in Leadership Conference recently, and at the beginning of the conference was a keynote speech by this amazing woman who I believe is in her 60s. And she’s, you know, at the pinnacle of her career of anyone’s career, this woman is absolutely phenomenal. And she made a comment that really stuck with me. Someone asked her a question that’s similar to the topic that we’re talking about right now, about authenticity and bringing your whole self to work. And her response was, I encourage you to use authenticity as your superpower. Yeah, and she’s she Like, you know, in her 60s, like I said, What do you think of that – making your transparency part of your brand? TM: And that’s fantastic. I mean, that’s, you know, we’re talking so much now about empathy. You know, empathy at one point would have been seen as weakness. And now empathy is seen as strength. Empathy is seen as a superpower. Empathy is something that brands which living things desperately wish they could convey. AW: That’s a great point, you’re reminding me of Brené Brown and all the vulnerability stuff, right? And she said that when she talks to some people on the airplane about what she does, then she would say, Well, I’m a researcher, and I study vulnerability. And depending on the person, and whether they’re familiar with her, and with the construct, they either think that vulnerability is this negative thing to be avoided? Right, or it’s a strength, and because her whole thing is about it takes courage to be vulnerable, and there are so many benefits to it. So it depends on a variety of factors, right? It depends on your personality. depends on your profession. And to your point from the very beginning, it depends on your audience. TM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s funny too, because I mean, every time I don’t know, when I first heard the term personal branding, I think it was probably 15 years ago, or something like that,.. AW:  I can tell you what it was. 1997, front cover of Fast Company magazine, the “Brand You” article by Tom Peters, I can guarantee you that. TM: I remember that. AW: So do I! TM:  Wow. So you know, the idea of what a corporate or product brand is, has changed a lot over the years, where we got to, I think, which was a good place, which is a brand is like a person, that the term I’m going to use is really nerdy. But in evolutionary biology, they talk about exaptation. So an adaptation is when evolutionarily, you know you have opposable thumbs. And exaptation is when something that you developed for a different purpose is repurposed. AW: Okay, love that word. So exaptation, it’s outside, right? TM: So an exaptation, what branding does is we have this built in software that lets you read other people. So you and I are talking to each other, and we’re giving each other visual cues. And there are books about how to read body language, but the fact is that it’s our operating system. Yep. So what a brand wants to do, is a brand wants to appear to your social instincts, as if it’s a person, as much as a big brand, like Coca Cola can say, you know, oh, we tastes really good. No, it’s, it’s the brand, it’s an old friend. So the exaptation, what brands are doing is they’re tricking our brains into thinking that they are people. What we do when we create a brand, is we’re actually creating an artificial personality. And so that’s why I find it kind of ironic, where we’ve gone full circle to saying personal branding. As I said to you on LinkedIn, I’m just myself, this is me, um, you know, I’m getting older, and I’m getting wiser, I hope. But you know, I’m also limited by being older, you know, my son cringes if I try to use his slang and stuff, but the brand just happens, the personal brand just happens. The question is, Are you the same when you’re talking to one on one to a friendly person or group of people? Or are you talking to a group who you don’t know? And you don’t see? And how do you brand towards them? And that’s bringing it full circle to that’s what advertising does, right? That’s what branding does. You but it’s like doubly blind, because you’re creating an artificial personality to appeal to a bunch of people you can’t see, you know, unless you have research on them. But anyway, I’m getting a little esoteric here. But it’s very relevant to me. I mean, the bottom line is, you have this in you to refine your personal brand, to alter your personal brand to make your personal brand work for you. A lot of it is just gaining the confidence to understand not only who you are, but how other people see you. So I mean, it, maybe it just seems too easy to me, because this is what I’ve done for a living. But I also think that people can learn this, I think that people can learn these insights and take them away. And you know, those of us in advertising, it’s a lot easier because we’re used to seeing this, we’re used to doing this, but anyone can benefit from it. think in terms of the audience, always the audience. AW: So I have to say, again, I think that that general message is so inspiring. I know from talking to some clients, particularly younger clients, I would say who feel overwhelmed about establishing their personal brand. And you need to think about filtering what you’re communicating based on your audience, and particularly pay attention to code switching across the generations. And when you were talking about stereotypes, and you know, there’s pros and cons and I was thinking I say this all the time to my kids like you wouldn’t survive if you didn’t stereotype to some extent. So stereotyping is not really a bad thing. It’s helping you judge the situation and how you should act and what you should do. Discrimination is bad. That’s different, right? I think that that’s really empowering. I wanted to ask you about my working definition that I have for personal branding. So if I’m starting off a workshop, I say, so what is personal branding? You can think of it very simply as identity management or reputation management. But it’s really what people think and say about you when you’re not in the room. TM: 100%. AW: So how does that relate then to product brands? Is it the same thing, what people think and say about the brand, when? Well, the brand could be in the room or not? Actually, right? TM: Well, let me let me put it this way. I’ve been in a lot of focus groups. If anyone’s ever attended, or on either side of the philosophy, focus group, people sit in a room with one wing mirror, they can’t see the people watching them, the client, the agency, you know, the market research firm, are in a darkened room, watching the focus group, the focus group know they’re being watched. And there’s a moderator who goes in and ask them the question. So we people seen this on TV, even people not in advertising can visualize this. What they don’t know is that when the moderator leaves the room, the agency especially get right up close, so they can hear what people say when the moderator is not a room. Yeah, we get our best insights. And it might sound creepy, but we live in a world of social listening. And when the moderator is not in the room is when people speak the truth. Ah, that’s an overstatement. But you know what I mean, people speak in an unperformed way, at least they’re not performing for the moderator. And it’s really interesting, because sometimes they realize the agency’s on the other side of the glass, but they forget where they’re so when the moderator is not in the room, they don’t realize we’re listening. And that’s when they start to say, Oh, boy, is that ever terrible? Like what? Yeah, what were they thinking? Yeah, and there’s good stuff to hear, right? You’re saying, yeah, this is this is the best feedback. AW: I actually remember that happening, being you know, what, the dark room on the other side of the one-way glass and looking in, and, you know, you can almost like snap your fingers and say, Oh, they forgot, we’re here, listen to what they’re saying. TM: They totally forget you’re there. I mean, it’s just like in psychology, right? You don’t want to, you know, you’re trying not to affect the subjects. But so you can make that a metaphor and say that your personal brand is what they say when the moderator is not in the room. AW: Oh, I love that. I love that. That’s, I’m gonna use that. These are great quotes here. So I have one more question to ask you before we get into the five rapid fire questions. TM: Okay. AW: You may have heard me say this, or you may have seen that I wrote this, that it occurred to me when I was thinking and writing about personal branding, that personal branding is very similar to actually your credit rating? TM: Yes, I heard you say that? Yeah, AW: yeah. So because of the fact that it exists, whether you manage it proactively or not, that people have access to it, they have access to your personal brand, obviously, they have access to your or institutions have access to your credit rating, and that you can choose to strategically manage it or not. What do you think about that metaphor? I guess it’s not a metaphor. It’s an analogy. TM: It’s an analogy. And I can give you I can give you a marketing equivalent, because you know, you were there to I was there, we got to actually shepherd clients onto social media. And there was a real reluctance to go on social media, because the culture is that any criticism is bad. So what we always said to them, they’re already talking about you. Don’t you want to be there?  So that’s like the credit score. It’s like, yeah, reputation exists. People have opinions of you the most, you know, the the quiet person who doesn’t talk to anyone, their neighbors still talk about them. AW: Yeah, that’s true. Oh, my gosh, I love all these points. And you also reminded me of googling yourself and how particularly older, again, back to your code switching across the generations, older people, oh, I would never Google myself. That’s what narcissists do. And I’m like, other people are googling you. As you know, in a professional context. I know that when I meet people, they’re googling me. Right? So you got to manage your digital footprint, even social media. TM: Oh, yeah, I have a I’ve had a Google News alert set for myself for over 10 years. AW: Good for you. TM: Oh, yeah, well, but you know, shout out to Tom Megginson of Yorkshire, I get all of his stuff. AW: Okay, we’re gonna move on now to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? TM: Yes. AW: First question. What are your pet peeves? TM: I’m a creative person. My pet peeve is really bad writing. And I don’t mean spelling mistakes. I mean, poor communication online when people aren’t expressing themselves. Well, I wish I could help them. AW: Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you? TM: I’m self taught. I actually dropped out of university, taught myself to do what I do. I learned by reading and I learned by listening and I especially learned by conversation. AW: Wow, that’s impressive. Question number three. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? TM: This is a really funny one. So a few years ago, I was having a catch-up coffee with a very good friend of mine who told me she was very introvert and I said, you’re introverted? We’ve always been really open with each other. And she said, Well, my husband says, you’re an introvert, if your idea of relaxing is to be by yourself, if your idea of relaxing is to be with other people, you’re an extrovert. And I said, Oh, geez, because I’m really comfortable around people around strangers, whatever. But I need my me time. So maybe I’m both. AW: So here’s the question. Where do you get your energy from? Or maybe an easier question to answer is, do you feel more drained when you spend the day alone? Or do you feel more drained after you come back from, you know, a big dinner party or something? TM: Oh, definitely the latter. I mean, it takes a lot of psychic energy to be on, especially most of my socializing has a business aspect to it. So we were talking about those filters. They’re exhausting. AW: Okay, so I’m gonna diagnose you as a social introvert, you are introverted, because you get your energy from being alone in your thoughts, right. But you do enjoy the company of people and you’re not shy. TM: Yeah, that totally works. I mean, just think about how many actors and stand up comedians are incredibly insecure. I don’t consider myself insecure, but I do need my alone time. AW: Oh, interesting. Okay, question number four communication preference for personal conversations? TM: Well, I would say that I always prefer face to face. I’m most comfortable with face to face for all the reasons I told you about, you know, just being able to really connect with the person. However, I’ve gotten very used to text. I think I like either texting personal message. I like writing. I like communicating with people in writing. I don’t spend a lot of time on the phone anymore. I talk to my mom on the phone. AW: Last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? TM: It’s really hard to say … I’m not a follower. I don’t subscribe to any blogs or newsletters. I’ve written blogs. I’ve written for podcasts. I’ve done all this stuff. But I don’t actually subscribe to anyone. I allow my network to curate it for me. So you know, people will say Did you hear this podcast? This one’s really good. So I’ll listen to that one. The nice thing about that is I don’t get locked in. AW: Yeah, that’s true. TM: That’s true. But I will subscribe to yours. AW: Oh my gosh, that question is not meant to be fishing for subscriptions. Honestly, I’m just I’m just… Okay. Is there anything else you want to add? About TMI or anything? TM: Not really. I mean, I think we’ve covered a lot of stuff. I just really, really enjoyed talking to you here today. I mean, you know, you talk about conversation and learning and this is exactly the thing I like to do. So thank you very much for your time and for putting me on your on your podcast. AW: Okay. I was supposed to thank you first! But Tom, the feeling’s mutual. I love this conversation because I learned, I did learn a lot and a new perspective on TMI and authenticity, and it was great and I hope we can stay connected. TM: Fantastic. Me too. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]                 ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-4584-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-4584 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-4584 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-4584-0.panel-no-style, #pg-4584-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-4584-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-4584-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-4584-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-4584 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-4584 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-4584 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #71 PERSONAL BRANDING, AUTHENTICITY & TMI with Tom Megginson appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Step by step instructions on how to optimize your LinkedIn profile. Volterra founder Andrew Jenkins shares how to use LinkedIn for creating your personal brand,  networking, thought leadership, marketing, and job-searching.   REFERENCES Andrew Jenkins & Volterra LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewjjenkins Volterra – https://www.linkedin.com/company/volterradigital/ Talk About Talk podcast episode with Andrew Jenkins #7: SOCIAL MEDIA – https://talkabouttalk.com/7-social-media-with-volterra-founder-andrew-jenkins/ Recommended podcast: Pivot – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pivot/id1073226719 Qwant search engine – https://www.qwant.com/ How to take a headshot selfie – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrD_iFl7QcA  Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk About Talk on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/18798163/ Talk About Talk podcast episode – NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin- Email – [email protected] Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   TRANSCRIPT – How to Optimize Your LinkedIn Profile Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Andrew, for joining us here to talk about LinkedIn. ANDREW JENKINS: You’re very welcome. I’m glad to be here. AW: I’m going to start by asking you about the objective or the purpose. So why would we want a LinkedIn account? ANDREW JENKINS: In this day and age where connections are all the more important – virtual or otherwise, and in this new world of work, and having to rely on digital networking to replace offline networking, I think people need to be more conscious of the power of network transparency. And this, if you want to call it the social graph, if I’m on LinkedIn, I now know who you know, your network is transparent to me. And so I can say to you, according to LinkedIn, you know, so and so would you be comfortable in introducing me? Or is it okay, if I reached out to them and say that you actually recommended me? There’s no more effort on your part. That network transparency is something that is often overlooked or never thought of or considered. And that’s just one aspect of the overlooked value of LinkedIn. AW: So would you say that LinkedIn has become a more necessary and more important tool? ANDREW JENKINS: Oh, very much so. And we’ve seen just with clients that we work with, and so on a rise in activity on LinkedIn, and 85% of jobs are filled through networks, not through job postings. So if you’re not networking, I’m sorry, it’s going to be particularly challenging. And you know, I’ve been mentoring some people. And as part of that mentorship, I tell them connect with me on LinkedIn, and look in my network. And I reached out to six different people on my network that they had identified as people they would like to talk to. Six out of six, I said, I have this person that I’m assisting and mentoring. They have identified you as someone they’d like to speak with, from a networking information gathering, (but not asking for a job just wanting to talk). And all six said, Yes, yeah. And they’ve all had virtual or just either zoom or phone conversations with them. And I mean, not everyone is that receptive. But this is the new reality. And so we have to up our digital networking skills, and perhaps get a little bit out of our comfort zones of cold calling people in a digital way. AW: But what you described there, I think it’s not really what I would call cold calling, right? It was more warm calling it’s through another person. And that’s probably why they were receptive. So what I heard in your answer about the purpose of object or objective of LinkedIn, then is that it serves to help us in job searches, of course, you mentioned, but really, it’s the network. It’s the connecting. ANDREW JENKINS: Well, it’s an often-used phrase that your network is your net worth. AW: I like that. ANDREW JENKINS: But for me, personally, I owe my career to LinkedIn. So from my perspective, I describe it as not, even for sales teams that I’ve trained, and other speaking engagements where I’ve talked about LinkedIn, I’ve said, LinkedIn is not necessary for a job search, or it’s a place to make valuable connections. And the sooner you equate making a connection on LinkedIn, to something where someday there will be an exchange of value. And don’t always think that it’s got to be something what’s in it for me, actually, there’s more value to come from you actually paying it forward and being of assistance to others. And Malcolm Gladwell talked about it in the Tipping Point about the strength of weak ties, right. And I found oftentimes, when I’ve reached out to someone I barely know on LinkedIn, asking for their assistance, that they’ve been more receptive to help me or to help me, help me help someone else than someone I know very, very closely or deeply. AW: Interesting. This relates nicely to some comments that we heard from Sharon Mah-Gin. She’s an executive recruiter that I interviewed about the power of networking, and she talks a lot about reciprocality and offering value to others. So … interesting. Should everyone have a LinkedIn account? ANDREW JENKINS: I think it’s fair to say that not everyone needs it. It depends on what your objectives are, or what it is that you do. You know, I know, when my son was in high school and doing a co-op, they were required to set up a LinkedIn account. Now, like, there’s a joke that goes around says like, if you’re not on LinkedIn, you don’t exist. But there’s 700 million accounts on LinkedIn, but only about 3 million share content on a monthly basis. So there’s a huge delta between the number of people who have an account and the number of people who are active. And a lot of people will dismiss it as a place just to go to get a job. And a lot of other people don’t like being active on it, because they get inundated with people wanting to work for their firm or, or being sold. AW: Yeah, that happens to me a lot. ANDREW JENKINS: Me too. And I think we touch on that later. But this idea, though, that it is a social network, but it’s a professional social network. And so the analogy I use is, you’re at the soccer game on the weekend with your kids and you’re on the sidelines with another parent. You don’t always talk about soccer, right? You’ll start talking about what you do during the week or other things and suddenly Oh, they say something. Oh, I know something about that. And suddenly you’re networking on the side of the soccer field. So can you transfer that kind of serendipity into a virtual world through LinkedIn? AW: Yeah, absolutely. So you talked about your son being instructed to create a LinkedIn account, I’m wondering if we can talk a little bit about optimizing our profile. So whether you are creating one from scratch, or you already have one, and you’re looking to improve it, what are some easy things that people can do to optimize their profile?  Maybe we can work our way down? ANDREW JENKINS: Okay, starting at the top, often people will just default to their title. Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have your title you can. But don’t stop there. They’ve made some refinements you now have up to 200 characters for your headline. So put your value proposition. What is it you have to offer? What is it – What’s your strengths, your expertise, you can, like I said, it can still include a job title if you want, if you want to put some certifications like MBA, DBA, CFP, whatever, that’s fine, because a lot of people are looking for, you know, well known credentials or designations. AW: Can you give us an example? say, say I’m a vice president of marketing? ANDREW JENKINS: That’s a very generic title, right? What kind of marketing do you do? areas of expertise? Again, what kind of value are you delivering to that organization? And can you put it succinctly in 200 characters, what would make me read further down your profile? Now, the other thing to think about one of the reasons you want to have like provocative or eye catching headline is when you are commenting on someone else’s post, and someone looks at the thread of commenters. And you’re all directors of marketing, you don’t stand out, there’s no differentiation. But if you’ve got this provocative statement about you, something as subtle as that. To be more conscious of like, it’s your personal brand walking around inside LinkedIn. So consider what you’re doing – leaving these digital breadcrumbs that are related to your personal brand, AW: it’s probably the most important thing because as you said, it’s showing up… ANDREW JENKINS: well, and it’s the first thing people see when they hit your profile. So there’s the three things that are in combination, when people first hit your profile, it’s the banner image, your headshot and the headline. And so you want to have them working in unison. So when you look at my LinkedIn profile, yeah, my banner image is a collage of images of me speaking, right? I don’t need to tell you that I’m a speaker. It’s there. I am onstage so you know I speak. Then there’s my headshot, which is a professional headshot. So whenever you’re at a conference and someone sponsored a photographer, take the 10 minutes, take the opportunity, but LinkedIn even has a video. It’s #workselfie, the shows you have to take a picture of yourself with a neutral background with your smartphone. And that’s a lot better than a Gray Ghost. And avoid your vacation pics, no pictures with remnants of other people, the number of people that I’ve seen use scuba diving,… AW: what about the background, the banner ad, because I’ve seen people, they’re putting things like scuba diving or whatever, where it’s kind of showing that they have another side to them, or… ANDREW JENKINS: well you raise an interesting point. So I’ve worked one on one with some executives on their LinkedIn profile. Recently, I was working with a partner in an accounting firm. And I said, when you think about the banner image, we can use it to humanize you to show other aspects of you, what is it you would want to convey with an image, and he said diversity. He said, I like to work with diverse teams. I really evangelize diversity in all its shapes and forms. And so we found an image that was representative of that theme. For another executive who works in the energy space, he wanted to talk about the innovation in the energy space. So we found still a stock photo, but something that conveyed that rather than just the default blue background, so again, it’s free, throw something up there that this is all about personal branding and think about all the icebreakers that you’re asked to share. When you go to a networking event like LinkedIn. I’ve been to some of their events and they’ll say tell the room one thing about you that’s not on your LinkedIn profile is an icebreaker. AW: So now we’ve got our background, we’ve got our headshot, we’ve got our headline, can you go through all of the elements kind of from top to bottom, just briefly talking about the do’s and the don’ts, maybe what the common mistakes are. And also I should add, I know that we can play with the order, we can move things up or down depending on the relevance and what we want. ANDREW JENKINS: So the next section after your headline is the about or the summary section. And again, like you said, you can move them around, but typically people are just going through the default settings. Now the about section only displays about three lines of text. So this is where I tell people give thought to what those first three sentences say, Ah, it’s the opening of your story below the that third line are two words see more, right? And what would give me cause to click see more? And the other thing is, your LinkedIn profile is not your resume. This is kind of I call it the story of you and the about section is a summary that stitches together all the chapters of your career that are listed below. AW: Okay, so I have a question about the about the about section, I’ve noticed some profiles that are that are very impressive that do exactly what you said they kind of draw you in. So you click on see more. Should it be written in first person? So I help companies blah, blah, blah, or should it be in third person? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki…Right? ANDREW JENKINS: It should be written in first person, imagine if your summary went to a networking event on your behalf. Okay? It wouldn’t be talking about you in a third person. This is not Seinfeld, this is you talking about yourself, write it as if you’re trying to build rapport and trust. Okay, you’ve got 2000 characters, so take advantage of it. The other thing is, I don’t want to say keyword stuff. AW: I was just thinking that! ANDREW JENKINS:  Some of the things that are written there are going to aid you being discovered. And so you can list your areas of expertise, AW: I’ve seen that in the last six months, I’ve noticed a lot of people changing their about section to introduce themselves. And then at the end, it lists their areas of expertise. In fact, I did that as well. Like I have courses and coaching in the following areas. ANDREW JENKINS: I did a bit of a hack. And this doesn’t stop anyone else from doing the same thing. AW: we’re all gonna do the same thing! ANDREW JENKINS: So I have my own company. So I can list as many roles at my company related to me as I as I wish. So I have myself as the principal running the company. And then I’ve added a second role, speaker. And the reason I did that is because with that secondary role, it gives me more screen real estate to describe what I do as a speaker and panelist and I list all the conferences that have spoken out or been a panelist and so every new conference that I’ve spoken at virtual or otherwise, etc., I add that. And then if there’s any media of me standing on stage, or a video clip, or whatever, I add that media to that section, that’s amazing. AW: So you’re updating it, you’re adding to your credibility. ANDREW JENKINS: I should jump back just briefly to the about section. We’ve talked a lot about what you write there that you can have media there, you can have you on YouTube, you can put a thumbnail, but the link is to a podcast, the way I describe it is that your LinkedIn profile could be the most media rich business card you could dream of having. AW: I love that! Roll more media into it. This is all stuff you can’t do with a resume. So is the media in the about section in addition to the featured section, which is usually below that…? ANDREW JENKINS: that’s where they’re bringing some of that to the forefront is into that featured section. AW: So you could do both right, you could put something in the about section and also in the featured section. ANDREW JENKINS: Okay. But for instance, if I write an article on LinkedIn, publish an article that gets featured in the featured section, okay, but it’s also listed in my activity, but not necessarily listed as media in my about section. The same principles apply for all the roles. It’s a chapter in your career, I would give emphasis to any of the roles that are for the last five years, and I saw a comment recently from someone else, a millennial who does a lot of work on LinkedIn, she made a comment about people saying “open for new opportunities” is their headline. And there’s a new setting on LinkedIn that says, you can say I’m available for new opportunities. The recommendation was not to blatantly put that as your headline, because I don’t want to say there’s an element of desperation. AW: But I think there is! ANDREW JENKINS: But again, it’s about being proud of who you are and what you’ve accomplished. And if people want to recruit you, they will because you can change that setting for recruiters. So it’s behind the scenes that you’re doing that anyway, put the emphasis on who you are, what you’ve accomplished, and that personal brand kind of thing. AW: I actually I have to say I agree, and I loved your previous point about the headline, it should announce what you’re proud of and why people should trust you and why they would want to talk to you, right? And they don’t they don’t want to talk to you because you’re looking for a job, right? They want to talk to you because of your experience and your expertise. So what about – so there’s like section one that lists your job experience, right? ANDREW JENKINS: So then you’re going to get into education, and volunteer and recommendations and endorsements. So again, those are other chapters, it’s not the appendix of your career like that people will make a connection with someone who’s an alumni of the same program. So don’t overlook your education, even if it was a while ago. And as well, if you’ve done any recent certifications, or professional development, AW: and sometimes some organizations, they cut their applicants, for example, they’ll say we’re not going to look at anyone that doesn’t have an MBA just because it’s probably an easy sort of objective, quantifiable measure that they can. ANDREW JENKINS: It’s a filter. Yeah. And then volunteering, you may make a connection. Like you and I met on a board. People outside of their work ,if they’re on the board of a non-profit, it may lead to a connection. And so don’t overlook that section. And the last two main sections: recommendations. When was the last recommendation that you got? Sometimes they can be gamed. I’ll write you a recommendation if you write me one or I’d love a recommendation, I know you’re busy. I took the liberty of writing it for you. So that’s my take on recommendations. AW: I’m sure many, many of them are legitimate, but also many of them are not. ANDREW JENKINS: right. So you have to be careful. You want them valid. And the other one that receives scrutiny is endorsements. Right? I just have to click a button to endorse you. The one thing I highlight about that is that the more you are endorsed for specific skills, the higher you rank and search for those skills. AW: Yeah. So if you are job searching, that may be critical, right? ANDREW JENKINS: Yeah. And the top three are the ones that get displayed. AW: Okay, it’s three that get displayed. I haven’t even looked at what mine are. ANDREW JENKINS: So then, that’s the thing is like, I tell people, go look at the three that are displayed. Are they the ones you want to be known for? Just like keywords in your summary section, you’re trying to help your discoverability. AW: Right. And then I guess the last thing is interests, right. You can follow organizations or people and then they show up as interest. Does that matter? ANDREW JENKINS: Well, sometimes you forget what you clicked on, right? Oh, yeah. I don’t want that there. So they were showing us some of their political affiliations. Yeah, that’s not good. There’s so far down your profile, like they’re not a priority. But I just flag it as just be mindful of what’s displayed there. That’s all. We’ve been hired to do social audits on executives that were being considered for senior roles. And in one instance, they were going to be a CFO, and we found nothing. And so we delivered the audit and they go, Well, there’s nothing here. I said, Well, that’s what you want. There’s nothing – there’s no red flags. They were clean. Think about every digital breadcrumb you leave. AW: Yeah. So the social audit is an interesting, interesting topic in and of itself, right. So I know a lot of senior executives who have no digital footprint, really, they may have, like you said, a placeholder on LinkedIn or a placeholder on Facebook. But that’s really it. Is that, is that a good thing? Is that better than nothing? Or? ANDREW JENKINS: Well, there’s two different audits. There’s the auditing of their own digital presence and digital breadcrumbs. And then there’s have they been talked about? Just because you don’t have a LinkedIn account, doesn’t mean you’re not being talked about online. Now, for many people. If it’s a small business fine, like you can fly below the radar for a very, very long time. AW: Okay, so I think that’s a great insight, right? You have a digital footprint, which may include your social media profiles, but it may include articles written by your firm or by journalists or whatever. So Google yourself, as you said,… ANDREW JENKINS: perhaps get someone else to Google you, because Google is so tied to our own search habits. Yeah, have someone else Google use because the search is not going to be tainted, like it would be for you, AW: or just don’t use Google? ANDREW JENKINS: Those or you have not watched the movie on Netflix, The Social Dilemma? AW: Yeah. ANDREW JENKINS: Someone who worked for Google, actually, at the end says, I use QWANT “ q, q, a, n, t”  to do search, right? Because it doesn’t track your history or keep it AW: fascinating. ANDREW JENKINS: you may not have a digital footprint whatsoever. And you might be quite content with that. That’s okay. But if it’s at all concerning how somebody search your name, and see what they come up with, AW: yeah, that’s fantastic advice. I guess the way to think about it is that social media is an opportunity to craft your personal brand online. Let’s shift gears then to etiquette and posting. Can you take us through some do’s and don’ts maybe what topics are off limits, particularly on LinkedIn? ANDREW JENKINS: Sure, I’ll touch on posting for a moment. People say, Well, I don’t have time, if you’re five minutes early for a meeting, fire up LinkedIn and just comment on a post or share a post. Instead of surfing Facebook, surf LinkedIn. See if someone’s with an article of interest, whatever, like just swap it out, and find these moments to engage. Use a Google Alert to find content around certain topics that you might want to build thought leadership about, and put the emphasis more on commenting on other people’s articles for visibility, you know, comment on someone else who has higher visibility, comment on something they’ve shared, and see who likes the comment that you made? And if whatever comment you made garners a reaction, that could inspire you to write a blog post. You can then go back to those seven people that liked it and say, oh, by the way, here’s a blog post or a podcast or another article. And suddenly, I’m building a relationship with these people. I haven’t sold them anything. I’m not trying to sell them anything. We’ve just made a connection over mutual interests. AW: Brilliant. ANDREW JENKINS: Yes, that’s a bit of effort. But as people become increasingly reliant on LinkedIn to make connections, be genuine, be human. Don’t use the default message from LinkedIn saying, I’d like to add you to my personal network on LinkedIn. I heard a great example from a friend of mine, someone in his network posted on Friday night at five o’clock, saying we’re all working from home now. My wife likes to put on Led Zeppelin when it’s five o’clock on Friday to celebrate the end of the week and the weekend is here. What have any music you played to signify the end of the week? AW: I love it. ANDREW JENKINS: It started this whole thread of comments. And this was on LinkedIn. Yeah, he was being human. There. It was tied to work. And on Monday morning: just isn’t it great that we can talk about Led Zeppelin on LinkedIn? Let’s stay connected. Yeah. And that was so genuine. So human. So real versus anything that felt scripted, right? That’s the sad state I’m seeing on LinkedIn. And if I had to summarize etiquette, just be yourself. It’ll go a long way. AW: Well put, well put. Let’s move on then to the five rapid fire questions. Yeah. Are you ready? ANDREW JENKINS: I’m ready. AW: Question number one. What are your pet peeves? ANDREW JENKINS: The person who ended up being my boss at Bell during an interview said you’re very even. You’re low key. What pisses you off? Oh, but like, I know that I can be somewhat hard to read. And so he said, like what pisses you off? I said, being made to look unprofessional. AW: Okay, well, I’m going to make you look great with this podcast, Andrew. Question number two, what type of learner are you? ANDREW JENKINS: I’m the stereotypical guy who doesn’t read the instructions, but I will watch a YouTube video and that taking me through how to do something, thank God for YouTube because it’s become this. It’s the number two search engine. Just type in the words how to into the search field. But I have found YouTube invaluable to watch a minute clip. I literally just how do I do x? And there’s a YouTube video that shows me how to do it. AW: So yeah, the poor repair man, he’s done. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? ANDREW JENKINS: Introvert, I think back to when I did my MBA, and the thought of standing up in front of my class would make me sick to my stomach. And now I can stand up in front of 400 and speak quite comfortably. AW: Yeah, I’ve seen you speak. Yeah. Question number four communication preference for personal conversation? ANDREW JENKINS: I can say that I don’t like talking on the phone. I find lengthy conversation on the phone – I don’t enjoy that. I rather prefer in person, or the virtual digital equivalent. Or I like Slack or texting just because it’s like the one thing I need to ask you. So I don’t have to have a five minute conversation to get to the point. AW: Right. Ok, got it. Last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most these days? ANDREW JENKINS: Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. They have a mixture, but they’re talking about a variety of things that are happening in the media space. So that’s my recommendation. AW: Okay. I’m gonna put a link to that in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add about LinkedIn? ANDREW JENKINS: connect with me on LinkedIn! AW: Okay! I will make sure I put your coordinates in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, Andrew. ANDREW JENKINS: You’re very welcome. Thanks so much. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING!     LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #62 HOW TO OPTIMIZE YOUR LINKEDIN PROFILE with Andrew Jenkins appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Crutch words, interrupting, filler comments, and more. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares 10 unique communication insights after hosting 60 Talk About Talk podcast episodes.    REFERENCES Resources & Recommendations “The Portfolio Career Podcast” with David Nebinski https://www.portfoliocareerpodcast.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidnebinski/ “Yogi MD” podcast” with Dr. Nadine Kelly https://yogimd.net/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadine-kelly-m-d-5a451946/ “Google Ads na Veia” podcast with André Carneiro https://www.googleadsnaveia.com.br/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/amarred/ Podcasting Workshop with Seth Godin and Alex DiPalma – https://podcastclub.link/ Talk About Talk Episodes Referenced #2 – USING YOUR VOICE with baritone opera singer Bradley Christensen #11 – STORYTELLING with Professor Jerry Zaltman #17 – POSSESSIONS with Professor Russell Belk #19 – SUPPORTING OUR GRIEVING FRIENDS with Andrea Warnick #23 – PROFANITY – TALKING TABOO with Professor Darin Flynn #20 – HOW TO TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR with Dr. Joshua Tepper #25 – BUILDING RESILIENCE & SELF TALK with Tosca Reno #28 – COMMUNICATING CHANGE with Professor Ellen Auster #36 – YOUTH MENTAL HEALTH with Nicole German #47 – COMPELLING PRESENTATIONS with Andrew Musselman Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   Thanks for listening.  And TALK SOON!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #61 WHAT I LEARNED FROM PODCASTING: from crutch words to how to interrupt appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Storytelling is a superpower.  Influencer and speaker Bobby Umar shares how storytelling can elevate your personal brand and your identity as a thought leader. For marketers, storytelling is a powerful tool to facilitate consumers’ resonance with brands.   REFERENCES Bobby Umar Twitter:https://twitter.com/raehanbobby Facebook Business:https://www.facebook.com/raehanbobby/ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbyumar/ LinkedIn Company: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bobbyumar/ Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/raehanbobby/ YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/c/BobbyUmar Speaker Profile:https://www.nsb.com/speakers/bobby-umar/ Recommendations: Gary Vaynerchuk Pod Save America   Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Relevant podcast episodes: STORYTELLING with Jerry Zaltman ARCHETYPES with Andrea Wojnicki NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin – REIMAGINING YOUR PERSONAL BRAND with Michael Boydell Email – [email protected] Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Bobby, for joining us to talk about storytelling. Bobby Umar: I’m happy to be here Andrea. Thank you so much. AW: My first question is really general, what makes for a great story? Bobby Umar: Well, I think probably one of the best things you can do as a storyteller is to create an image in people’s mind to get them to feel and experience what is the you’re expressing, whether you express it in words, like on a page where they express it on words on a stage or on a video… But if you can get them as you envision it, and join you in that emotional journey, that to me is probably the most powerful way to know that your story is working. Because what you’re doing is you’re creating credibility and resonance, and you involve them. So I think that’s probably the best way to describe a really powerful story. AW: So how do you involve them in a story though? I mean, it’s one thing to say it but is there a how to? Bobby Umar: Well, there’s lots of things you can do. I mean, for example, you can take people on the hero’s journey, your journey of revolution, transformation and bringing them back that whole kind of cycle or that story arc . That works really well.  There is immersing the people in what’s going on in terms of drama and intrigue and suspense. There’s using certain words that heighten the tension of the story. There’s asking a question that probes you know, their insight and interest and piques their mind so they want to be part of what’s going on, or you just describe something that’s really kind of like jaw dropping. Like, you know, I was flying over the hills, and we were all about to die. Whoa, okay, now what? And things like that. So there are different ways to get them to be involved. So there’s the immersing the audience and their experience. There’s the drama, the intrigue, word choice, there’s vulnerability. There’s lots of things you can do to immerse your audience into your story. AW: You talked about the hero’s journey. And as I was preparing for this interview, I was thinking, is it possible that storytelling as a topic itself, might be possibly wearing itself out? It’s a really, really popular topic. I know that it’s one of the most searched terms that I have on my website. You know, everywhere we look, there’s master classes on storytelling by famous authors, fiction and nonfiction right? And when I was doing some research for archetypes, I came across the hero’s journey over and over again. And they talked about how it’s become almost formulaic with Disney. And do you have any comments on that? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, I would say that to the first point, are stories getting old or tired? No, I don’t think so. I think that we’re evolving how we tell stories all the time. I mean, now you look at that 3D visualization, and V.R. There are so many different ways to tell stories. I think that that changes all the time. Some of the best movie-makers like you know, Steven Spielberg, for example, the first movie he did was different than what he’s doing now. I mean, you look at Jaws was like something, like Ready Player One is completely different. I think the issue really is when people focus on more of a formulaic approach as opposed to creating focus on the originality and on the content, on the characters. And when you end up with themes that only focus on those things. Yeah, then you’re gonna get a better job than just get a formulaic boy meets girl boy, girl dumps boy, boy gets girl again, that type of thing. So you know, formulaic? I like to call it a framework. Formulas are boring. But a framework is a structure that helps you create a compelling story as long as you can focus on the elements and do them in a very, very impactful way. And then the other thing I’ll say is that now people want to learn how to tell better stories with virtual meetings, because they’re working with remote teams, and they want to build tell better stories online because they’re trying to find a way to break through the clutter, break through the virtual stuff, break through the diminishing trust that we have, that’s out there. And so storytelling is a great way to do that. So I’m seeing that stories are constantly evolving across all different mediums in all different industries. And that’s why I think it never gets old. Like it’s the same thing, why there’s always gonna be someone to help you with networking. So there’ll be someone to help you with finding a date or, some of these things that people really care about storytelling, love, really connecting with people. These are things that are going to last forever, right? The thing about storytelling is it’s a framework and a foundation for connecting and relationship building and pitching in presentations. And all this kind of stuff. If you want to connect to people on the human level, no matter what the objective is – personal and professional, storytellers, right? So if I’m on a date, and I tell a story, like let’s say, when I met my wife, I told a story about how I ran a musical theater company. And he said, Oh, musical theater. I love musical theater. Okay. And next thing you know, there’s interest. Right? So storytelling is powerful in all different ways. AW: So you started to answer my next question then. And the truth remains that it’s not authors. It’s not writers that are inquiring about how to be better storytellers. Right? It’s managers, it’s leaders. It’s its students. It’s people that are going on dates. It’s, it’s all everybody wants to become a better storyteller. Why is it that stories are so engaging versus you know, I don’t know, a PowerPoint presentation with facts and figures and charts, which should appeal to us from a rational perspective, right? Bobby Umar: Well, a couple of things. Storytelling makes things more memorable, more impactful and longer lasting. At the same time, I think that stories are just a way to humanize people stories. They say more than what you’re actually saying versus just a number on the page. And so I think that’s another way the reason why stories are far more compelling to people. And that’s why people are using them all the time. AW: Yeah, I’ve heard over and over again that people remember emotions more than they remember facts. Bobby Umar: Absolutely. AW: Stories impart emotions, right? Bobby Umar: Yeah.  Stories make people feel a certain way. So they feel what you’re feeling, they feel the message more, and then they feel compelled to change. So you know, stories are a way to compel people to change their beliefs to change their actions, and to change their attitudes. And that’s why storytelling is very powerful. AW: And maybe change your opinion about someone right? Like you said, your wife was suddenly intrigued. Bobby Umar: Yeah, well, I mean, you take let’s say you have a stiff supervisor you know, that you don’t like but then three people know him or her tell the story about them being vulnerable or being silly or fun. All the sudden, it’s may start to shift the attitude around that person because you start to see it. That’s why vulnerability is so important when I work with clients So, being vulnerable is so helpful. So if we want to do that, it actually humanizes you and makes you more relatable. And I think, vulnerability, the data from Brené Browns research shows that vulnerability is a powerful connector to people. And so when you’re vulnerable people are more willing to be vulnerable with you. And so when you do that, for anybody, no matter how stiff they might seem, they started to become more human. AW: I agree, as you were saying that I was imagining we’re connecting with each other on so many dimensions, right? Like we kind of have an affect, we like each other, or we don’t like each other. It’s either positive or negative. But then there’s if the person has allowed themselves to be vulnerable, we feel like they’ve opened the door, it may be into their soul or into their true being, which relates to personal branding, which I know is one of your other areas of expertise. Can you talk a little bit about the connection between storytelling and personal branding? Bobby Umar: Well, simply put, your story is your brand, your brand is your story. So the way my personal brand has become the way Bobby is now, is from the very day I was born. So if you look back – Back in the day, he was a young child when I was six or 10 or 12 years old, I was a connector, I was a social butterfly, I would like to make people laugh. I like to make people smile. That thing has been part of my personal brand journey since I’ve been a little kid. And so that’s part of who I am. It’s a big part of why… Other people may have started with their analytical science experiments. And they did a lot of data analytics. And now they’re, you know, a scientist or something. It starts with that. The other thing that I’ve learned too, and more recently, is that you know, when it comes to telling stories, the people who struggle it’s because they don’t really know their personal brand. They don’t, they do the work, or know that the person brand is broken out several areas. One is self-awareness and self-analysis of who you are and what you’re about and what your strengths are. The second piece is knowing how people perceive you and how they relate to you connect to you. And when you know those things, then you can design a brand that’s targeted for that audience to know how they feel and create a story that’s far more aligned with your brand and it’s far more compelling. So when I tell stories, I think about the person that is part of my target audience and I create a far more compelling story. And so having a framework for a brand, and what that personal brand is, and having a framework for your story, both of them together is what you could use to craft the right story for that right person. AW: Okay, I have so many questions to ask based on that…So your personal brand is certainly not a blank slate. Right? You have your history. Bobby Umar: It already exists. That’s correct. AW: So two questions from that. One is, imagine your slate is as blank as it could be. So maybe you are a 23 year old recent graduate who’s starting a new job. You’re self-aware enough to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, and you know what your employer is looking for. What are some things that you can do strategically to manage your personal brand? Bobby Umar: Well, the first step to managing a person brand is to understand what it is. So doing the work. And here’s the thing, most people don’t want to do the work. Oftentimes because they’re afraid of it. But you know, it requires you to get feedback from your peer group and from people around you. Just basically ask them, tell me what you think of me. Tell me how I make you feel. Tell me what kind of experience I give you, because that’s what it is your brand is your reputation, how you’re perceived, the emotional experience that people feel from you. So do you want? Do you want to know that you’re kind of a jerk? Do you want to know that you’re always late? Do you want to know that? You know, you’re not reliable? I mean, you have to do the work to find that out because you got to be willing to take the strengths and the weaknesses. So that deep dive analysis is what you do. A lot of people don’t want to do that. But that’s the first step is actually dive into that support. AW: I understand why people might not want to do that, right. Because you as you said, you’re potentially learning something very negative about yourself. But imagine that you are compelled to truly understand or become more self-aware so that they can manage their personal brand optimally. What are the questions that you would ask people to get to that, you know, what is the maybe uniquely negative thing about me? Or what is the thing that that bugs people about me when we ask them to get to that? Bobby Umar: Well, that’s a good question. So normally when I do personal branding, I take people through kind of a signature methodology that I’ve created, where we go through personality traits, skills, interests, values, and things like that. So you can ask people about those things. What do you think are my top skills, my top values, things like that. But you can also ask things like, you know, what are my top three strengths? What are my top two weakness areas? Do I remind you of a character in a book or in a movie? And if so, why? And those types of questions are ones you can you can actually really extract a lot of information about how people perceive you, and what are some of the themes that come out. So when you do a lot of this work and do a really good deep dive across the board… Because there’s three ways to do the deep dive: one is do your own self-assessment, the other is to get the assessment of others, and the third is do online assessments. And when you do that broad range of assessments, you get like this voluminous amount of, you know, 10 pages of information. What are the threads and themes that stick out? What are the ones that are consistently shown across the board? When I did my own personal journey., the thing that came up, that screamed at me was: Bobby loves people, right? And so it told me that when I worked as an engineer in front of a computer for 10 hours a day and never talk to anybody, that’s why I was miserable. So I was no matter what I do moving forward, and better darn well have to do with people. And it’s very empowering, very validating. So you know, that that that to me was really powerful, too. AW: Yeah. And then I guess it allows you to focus in that area, so that you’re telling the story, right? in the way that is not only compelling to you, but compelling to everybody else. And it just makes sense. ‘Cause you’re going to be providing evidence of it all the time! Bobby Umar: Yeah, although the second, the second piece is, you know, once you’ve discovered your brand, and you focus on design, so this is where you look at your target audience what your objective is. So when it comes to a story, who was my target audience? What’s my objective? What do I want them to do? What I want them to feel? Where do I want them to believe? Then I tell those stories. So for example, you know, my main story, my website is about how I felt lost in my career, and how I want to help people not feel lost anymore and feel more fulfilled. That’s my journey of having four different careers. And so I tell that story because I want people to know I’ve been there, but I always want to help them get to where I am now. And so you can create a store that’s perfectly aligned for your target audience as long as you do the work. AW: Sounds like what – as you said – back to Steven Spielberg, it sounds like going back to what a movie director would do, right? You’re not you’re not creating a movie in a vacuum; you’re also thinking about what the audience is looking for. So that makes sense. The second question that I was gonna ask you related to your personal history is, is there a difference – And maybe it’s just semantics, that’s perfectly okay. But what’s the difference between your personal brand and your reputation? Bobby Umar: They’re very similar. I mean, your reputation is basically how people perceive you. Personal branding, it takes that to a higher level like it’s more about the emotional experience. It’s, it’s cumulative, it continues. It evolves, it goes on and on. Your reputation is more like a snapshot. Okay, well, right now in this moment in time, what’s my reputation? Okay, it’s this personal brand is far more complex because you can also manage your, your personal brand and you manage the reputation too, but your reputation is based on actions. So there are a lot of similarities but ultimately the personal brand is far more complex because based on your values, your beliefs, your actions, your history, the people around you, and how they perceive you. Reputation is more like taking a sample and then you know, 80% of people think you’re a jerk. Okay? 80% think you’re amazing. Okay, that’s, that’s reputation. Well, your brand’s more complex and more nuanced. AW: so one name keeps coming, popping into my mind as you’re describing all of this, and that’s Hillary Clinton. Bobby Umar: Okay, well, okay. AW: Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve done any thinking about that. But I’ve done some thinking and reading about her and her personal brand. And I’ve actually heard her say that she really struggled to come up with a story. She has a reputation and she knows that she’s smart, and she’s done the work. But her story like she lived a life of privilege, right. She didn’t live the hero’s journey. And it wouldn’t be authentic to pretend that she had any sort of hero’s journey because there really wasn’t any strife that she had to work through. Have you thought about that at all? Bobby Umar: Yeah. I mean, I think the challenge with People who particularly are older and have a very rich and complicated history is that they don’t know what story to focus on. Right. So I think that’s a challenge. I mean, if you watch the documentary about her life, you know, one of the things that, you know, maybe her story has been like, I really care about being an ally. Right? All my life, I’ve been an ally, and you show example, after example, after example. And maybe that could have been the story. Even when she was in college and university, she didn’t follow the norm. And she spoke up against things that most people wouldn’t. That could have been a brand that could have been the main story, but you know, I’ve always spoken up and rubbed people the wrong way. And that also strikes at the misogyny that happens in our system. Right. So I think there’s a lot there that could have been shared. But I think the other problem, of course, is that most people (and it’s happening now to like in, you know, whether with Joe Biden or other politicians) is that, you know, when you’re, when you’re 60 years old, you have an entire life and some people that people do people to find you when you’re 30 of the things you did when you were 30? or when you’re when you’re 40 I opened up because I said that I’ve done things in my 20s. And you know, if I go into politics and that came up, I’ll say, well, that that’s like, you know, one small dumb thing I did. But you know, the nuance of my entire story is that Bobby’s been a connector. He’s always been a connector. He always is friendly to people. He always listens. He has empathy. And that is, absolutely that’s been there since I was six. And you can’t doubt that. So then, you know, and all those small things, they start to fall by the wayside because they’re not as important. AW: Brilliantly put Bobby, I have to say, maybe Hillary should come and talk to Bobby. I’m serious, because I think that that was a big part… I think, when I think about it in the context of this interview, she has checkmarks in terms of her reputation, but she didn’t engage with people emotionally, because she really didn’t have a story, or she has a story to tell. But she wasn’t telling it. She wasn’t being proactive. Bobby Umar: Although I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t say that’s the only thing I mean, … a common systemic thing that happens that women have to check – women often feel they have to put their emotions in check because of misogyny in the world. Because that’s how they have to be in the boardroom or in the corporate space. Things are changing for the better. But we’re not there yet. So I think those there are a lot of things there too, that are kind of complicated. And that, you know, shouldn’t be ignored. AW: But you mentioned advocacy is one of the roles that she’s had. And she could say, she’s been advocating for women this entire time. And yeah, I just personally endured it all. Yeah, it works. Bobby Umar: Yeah. Part of the challenge is You say, Well, I’m, I’m here for everybody. The problem is sometimes people feel like, it gets lost. It’s like when you do what we need, when you target a story or for a brand you say, who’s your brand? Like for example, I run I run a personal branding course. Who’s the course for? Well, technically, it’s for everybody, but I can’t say that because then no one’s gonna want to take it. Right. I say I say focus on these two key demographics, then, you know, then we can just focus on stories just around those two things and really build a brand around that. Those two things. AW: Yeah, it makes sense. Okay, so this also all relates to marketing and brands. And as we were talking just before we pressed record, you and I both had some experience working in marketing at Kraft Foods. Could you tell the listeners a little bit about the significance of storytelling for brands? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, it’s kind of like when you create a customer avatar, and you want to market to those people, you have to understand their stories, and who they are and what they’re all about. The stories tell you about your values, your belief or culture, you know, your demographic, or psychographic. AW: Can I just interject? Do you remember what the avatar was at? Kraft? It was young busy moms. Bobby Umar: Oh, was it? Okay, AW: I remember young busy moms. Bobby Umar: Sure. AW: And they had an acronym them: YBM. Bobby Umar: Okay, yeah. So like, you know, thy need really quick, short, easy recipes to put together for dinner. Yeah. So you know, you think – so one is to focus on the stories of that customer avatar, that’s one thing. And the second thing is that when you create a commercial or an ad, you have to tell a story. Here’s a story of this young busy mom was struggling to take the kids to soccer practice and make dinner. But then she worked on her job and she coming home and oh my god, I only have you know, 20 minutes to make some dinner and what do I have in the fridge? Oh, there’s Kraft cheese and all that, you know, then next thing you know…,but that’s the story. And that story sells, because it’s relatable. it humanizes you. AW: So, is it that the brand is a prop in the story of the consumer? Bobby Umar: Hmm. That’s a good question. It depends on the brand. I mean, that’s kind of hard to say. I mean, some brands have a story behind them. Like, again, I used to work at Kraft on cheese. And so we looked at the JLKraft premium cheese that they had, there was a whole story around the craftsmanship, and the time it took to make that cheese and they had a whole history, the heritage around that. So they had that. Whereas, you know, KD might be a little different, where it’s like, okay, you know, like, it’s just cool and hip and young people do this, and you know. But there’s a story about the young people as well. So maybe that one seems more like a commodity in terms of telling the story about being a young hip cool person. But I think every – I think every brand has a story behind it. AW: Can you think of any brands that are in our marketplace right now that are doing a great job of using storytelling? Bobby Umar: There’s so many, but I think the person who comes to my mind is Nike. AW: always.  It’s always Nike. Bobby Umar: Yeah, I mean, look, we are now at a time of an elevated, heightened awareness of racial injustice. Five years ago, people – so many people mocked Colin Kaepernick. But now we have entire football teams not even showing up for the anthem, because they’re protesting and it’s becoming more and more acceptable for everyone to do that. And so that awareness has been huge. And Nike, you know, put some ads out where they base their message – it had nothing to do with selling sneakers, just saying, this is something we believe in, we support, here’s why it’s important. That’s it. And they’re all they’re doing is they’re selling their values. They’re selling their beliefs. That’s powerful. And, you know, the brands that are able to do that and stay ahead of the curve are the ones who think they’re going to come out ahead. AW: Mm hmm. Yeah. And back to my question about using the product as a prop in the story. I’ve heard that the Nike strategy is really focused on the idea of heroes. So celebrating heroes, heroes wearing Nike, again, as a prop. Right. So Colin Kaepernick has become a huge hero, and it’s just become even more reinforced recently. Right? Yeah. Bobby Umar: Yeah. And I think the whole point of storytelling is that people invest in people. People invest in stories; they invest in values and beliefs and cultures. And if a brand is associated with those things, then they’re more likely to buy those things. But ultimately, it’s about the people and the stories and the beliefs and the culture. AW: Okay, so I have one more question for you before we move on to the five rapid fire questions that is related to all of this. If there’s a brand manager out there, say it’s for a start-up and back to the blank slate, imagine your brand is a blank slate, because there’s no brand equity associated with it whatsoever. How would you I guess, in general terms, go about coming up with a story for the brand? Bobby Umar: Well, again, for the brand thing, I mean, the main thing keep in mind is that, you know, where do you want that brand to be? Right? So that’s an important piece. How is a brand currently perceived? Where do you want that brand to be? You know, people need to see a brand message over seven times before they started actually believing it and started to shift their mindset around it. That to me is important. But you have to talk to your customers, you have to talk to customers see how they perceive it? What would be ideal for you, what would you like to see this product, or this brand be in six months or two years, and see what they say? And then carve out a strategy that allows you to try to move things along that direction. AW: Right, right. And putting the lens on it to not, as we learned, not do everything that the consumer tells us right? Bobby Umar: Yeah, I mean, you also have to like, take that in consideration, right? I mean, part of our job as brand experts or brand managers is to also evolve the audience to where we think they should go. And Apple does a good job of, you know, looking to the future and saying, No, this is where we want to be. And eventually moving people that way. I’m the same way too when it comes to personal branding. Like I spend a lot of my time educating the audience, educating companies and employers about the importance of brand new thought leadership, about the importance of storytelling, because a lot of people just aren’t on board yet. They don’t get it. So we spend a lot of time educating and taking them to where they want to go. AW: Seems like a no brainer to me. Bobby Umar: Yeah, but you know, like that this because you you’re… AW: I drank the Kool-Aid! Bobby Umar:  Yah you drink the Kool Aid. Yeah, but a lot of people haven’t. That’s fine. It’s amazing that people have not. So there’s always powers and variables that play that, you know, hold people back: fear, doubt, you know, the pressure to be profitable and things like that. So it’s challenging for people. AW: Okay, so if you don’t mind we’re gonna move on to the five rapid fire questions now. Let’s dig into Bobby’s brain and learn about his story. Are you ready? First question: what are your pet peeves? Bobby Umar: My pet peeves are hypocrisy and ignorance. I find those things to be …. people just aren’t aware of those things. They don’t see how hypocritical or ignorant they are when they say or do things I find that really to be a huge, huge problem. AW: Hmm. Have you ever heard someone or read someone who was trying to use storytelling and they ended up sounding hypocritical? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, I think it happens a lot. I mean, a perfect example is the racial, racial injustice – with people who are, you know, deemed to be, you know, racially insensitive, and they tell a story about how: Yeah, well, I had a friend who was, you know, a personal color. Well, that story just comes across as you know, meaningless or hypocritical because they don’t really get it. They’re not listening. AW: That’s a great example. It’s very timely, and also very common. Bobby Umar: Yeah. It happens all the time. AW: Okay, second, second. Rapid Fire. Question What type of learner are you? Bobby Umar: I’m a learn-by-doing or visual learner. Visually I learn. But I’m more – I like to get my hands in and to do it and learn-by-doing. I just do. Some people ask me, do you read a lot of books? and I actually don’t even read books and I don’t learn by reading at all. I’m not an academic learner. I learn by doing. Visual is also something that’s really powerful for me. But I’m also I’m also learned by listening. So I think I’ve learned a lot by thousands of conversations that I’ve had over the years with people to learn about stuff, so for me, that’s kind of how I learned. AW: Next question, you have answered implicitly probably 20 times in the last several minutes: Introvert or extrovert? Bobby Umar: oh, I’m an extrovert. AW: I’m shocked! Bobby Umar: yeah, my you know, I remember doing Myers Briggs and my extrovert was 100%. Like 100% completely. And you know, it’s funny nowadays in my old age, per se, I’m down to like, sometimes 95%. Yeah, so I’m getting on in my years, but still, it’s still 95 %. AW: Okay, next question. Communication preference. for personal communication? Bobby Umar: Hmm, usually I text them. Texts are fast. And the other thing too, like, I’ve turned off all my notifications from Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Messages and Tweets. If I go in, I’ll see them but otherwise I won’t see them. So the only way to really message me is text a phone call or WhatsApp. That’s it. So for me, text and WhatsApp are probably the quickest way to get my attention. AW: Got it. So I’m interested in your notifications, comment on how many times a day do you go in and check your social media? Bobby Umar: Oh, probably far too much. But, you know, sometimes on a good day, I’ll go in the morning, do my thing, and then I’ll leave and then I’ll check at lunchtime and I’ll check. Maybe on a good day, it’ll be maybe four to five times per day. On a bad day, it might be like 20, every half an hour every hour or whatever, like that type of thing. But, you know, I, I admit my challenges there. But turning off my notification has been a game changer. In terms of me getting my work done. I think that’s been really tremendous. AW: What I did, I did, you may have done this as well, but I turned off all my notifications and I put them all in one file. And I put the file on the second page on my phone. So when I turn my phone on, I don’t even see them. Bobby Umar: Oh, interesting, okay, AW: it’s consistent with the nudge theory, right? Like I’m nudging myself along in the direction that I want to go. Bobby Umar: Yeah. And again, the studies show that the notifications are designed scientifically to get your attention. And so by turning them off, that was a game changer. I did. I started that beginning of 2019, two years ago. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, I love listening to Gary Vaynerchuk. Every time he shares something on Instagram or I’m on his email newsletter, that’s a really good one. And then in terms of podcasts, my favorite one is Pod Save America. And I’m very political. So like, I love to say, I find this stuff to be extremely fascinating. AW: Great. I’ll put links to those in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience about storytelling or? Bobby Umar: Well, I think ultimately they comes down to building up a thought-leadership brand for yourself.  If you want to become a thought leader in your field, no matter what it is, you have to work on your relationship building and networking, you have to work on your ideas and content generation, you have to work on your communication and speaking and writing skills. And so storytelling helps all those areas and they all help in relation building. Because if you want to become a thought leader, work on storytelling, work on relationship building, work on branding, and you’re gonna actually be able to take your thought leadership brand and take that to that next level. And so I think everyone should invest in those things to do so. And if people need help, I have programs and coaching stuff that I do. AW: I feel like your message there is that storytelling is the tactic that you can use, as you said, in your networking in the development of your personal brand in everything in your reputation management and everything that you’re doing. And so it’s actually not a tactic. It’s a strategy. Bobby Umar: and I’m seeing it now because before, my tactic was always power of connection. That’s my hashtag. I say power of connection is a way that you do everything better. But now I’m seeing the storytelling is one of the best tactics that actually helps with the power of connection to build all those things. I talked about entrepreneurship. So I’m using storytelling as my flagship tactic to help people do those things. AW: A tactic almost sounds like it’s trivial. It’s, it sounds like it’s worthy of being called a strategy but Bobby Umar: well, skill. I mean, you know, whatever it is, like, you know, if you want to build a superpower, storytelling is the one. And before used to be speaking, communication, empathy, those sorts of things, but storytelling can actually accomplish all those things. AW: If storytelling is your superpower, then you are a superhero. Yeah Bobby Umar: Yeah. AW: Brilliant. Thank you.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Good luck with your storytelling.  And talk soon! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #60 THE POWER OF STORYTELLING with influencer & speaker Bobby Umar appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Confidence Coaching – Communicate with CONFIDENCE – in the moment:  Learn the 5-step formula to communicate with confidence when you feel that nervous energy. The 5 steps include asking a question, breathing, acting confident, focusing with no distractions, and listening, using your ears.  This is confidence coaching in the moment – you got this! REFERENCES – Confidence in the moment Talk About Talk Episodes Referenced *** COMMUNICATE WITH CONFIDENCE Part 1: Mental Preparation *** https://talkabouttalk.com/58-communicate-with-confidence-mental-preparation BODY LANGUAGE with Cynthia Barlow https://talkabouttalk.com/1-body-language-with-executive-coach-cynthia-barlow/ BREATHING & POSTURE with Dr. Nadine Kelly https://talkabouttalk.com/43-posture-breathing-with-dr-nadine-kelly-yogimd/ COMMUNICATION SKILLS OF EFFECTIVE LEADERS with Heather Stark https://talkabouttalk.com/52-communication-skills-of-effective-leaders-with-heather-stark/ LISTENING with Norman Bacal https://talkabouttalk.com/41-listening-with-norman-bacal/ NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin https://talkabouttalk.com/45-networking/ POSSESSIONS with Russell Belk https://talkabouttalk.com/17-what-our-possessions-say-with-russell-belk/ PRESENTING WITH CONFIDENCE with Andrew Musselman https://talkabouttalk.com/48-presenting-with-confidence-podcast/ STORYTELLING with Jerry Zaltman https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ USING YOUR VOICE with Bradley Christensen https://talkabouttalk.com/2-using-your-voice-with-baritone-opera-singer-bradley-christensen/   Books “The Self Confidence Workbook” (B. Markway & C. Ampel) “Confidence Gap Guide” (R. Harris)   Articles & Videos Amy Cuddy TEDTalk on Body Language and Acting Confident – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc&feature=youtu.be FASTCOMPANY – https://www.fastcompany.com/90370098/these-instant-confidence-boosters-can-help-you-overcome-your-nerves PSYCHOLOGY TODAY – https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/changepower/201808/11-ways-project-confidence-and-be-taken-seriously PSYCHOLOGY TODAY – https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/changepower/201808/11-ways-project-confidence-and-be-taken-seriously PSYCHOLOGY TODAY – https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hide-and-seek/201510/self-confidence-versus-self-esteem   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]             ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #59 COMMUNICATE WITH CONFIDENCE: Part 2 – Confidence Coaching appeared first on Talk About Talk.

  Communicate with confidence: There’s the mental preparation, then there’s confidence in the moment.  In this first of a two-part series, we focus on the 4P’s of mentally preparing to communicate with confidence: Practice, as in rehearsing; Proverb, as in adopting a mantra; Pep talk; and Pirate, as in copying that confident feeling.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: [email protected]       ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-3929-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-3929 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-3929 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pl-3929 #panel-3929-0-0-0 { margin:5px 5px 5px 5px } #pg-3929-0.panel-no-style, #pg-3929-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-3929-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-3929-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-3929-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-3929 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-3929 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-3929 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #58 COMMUNICATE WITH CONFIDENCE: Part 1 – Mental Preparation appeared first on Talk About Talk.

HOW TO ASK FOR HELP? Consider the 3Ms: Mindset, Motivations and Metaphors. Researcher Gretchen Barton of OZA shares her expertise, including insights from a recent Gates Foundation project on “Understanding Perceptions of Poverty” in America. Asking for help- be it expertise, time or money – isn’t easy, but you can learn to seek help with confidence.    REFERENCES & LINKS – How to Ask For Help Gretchen Barton of OZA Gretchen Barton & OZA LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/gretchen-barton-3690231/ Olson Zaltman & Associates (OZA) website – https://olsonzaltman.com/ “Storytelling” podcast episode with Harvard Professor Jerry Zaltman of OZA – https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation presentation “Understanding Perceptions of Poverty” – https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cRKnH_nUN529O_NkdJhDYIIVHmgMSG2rVGWw2_3UGD0/edit#slide=id.g87b0c90985_1_38 Ask for Help – BOOKS “Reinforcements: How to get people to help you” by Heidi Grant – https://amzn.to/2C1lsSq “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss – https://amzn.to/31hXMSl  Ask for Help – Articles Aknin, Lara B., Elizabeth W. Dunn, Gillian M. Sandstrom, and Michael I. Norton.”Does Social Connection Turn Good Deeds into Good Feelings? On the Value of Putting the ‘Social’ in Prosocial Spending.” International Journal of Happiness and Development 1, no. 2 (2013): 155–171. https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/11148070 Alison Wood Brooks, Francesca Gino, Maurice E. Schweitzer “Smart People Ask for (My) Advice: Seeking Advice Boosts Perceptions of Competence” – Management Science- https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2014.2054? Daniel A. Newark, Francis J. Flynn, Vanessa K. Bohns “Once Bitten, Twice Shy: The Effect of a Past Refusal on Expectations of Future Compliance,” Social Psychology * Personality Science –https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550613490967 Flynn, F. J., & Lake, V. K. B. (2008). If you need help, just ask: Underestimating compliance with direct requests for help. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 95(1), 128–143. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.95.1.128 HBR article “How to Get the Help You Need”- https://hbr.org/2018/05/how-to-get-the-help-you-need HBR article – “3 Myths That Stop People from Asking for Help at Work” Vanessa K. Bohns – https://hbr.org/2020/06/3-myths-that-stop-people-from-asking-for-help-at-work TIP JARS: https://www.ama.org/2020/07/10/how-to-boost-tips-and-donations-with-the-dueling-preference-approach/    Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT – HOW TO ASK FOR HELP with GRETCHEN BARTON Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much Gretchen for sharing your expertise on how to ask for help. Gretchen Barton: My pleasure. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. AW: Why don’t we start by you telling us about the Poverty in America project that you’ve been working on for the Gates Foundation. GB: This has been a really fulfilling experience, to work with the Gates Foundation over the past year. One of the initiatives that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has been looking to do is to understand what poverty is in America and how to fix it. They partnered with us in an exploration of the four major audiences in America that had been identified by some previous research. They’re called the Progressives, the Conflicted, the Strivers and the Bootstrappers. Basically that represents the prominent ways people think about poverty in America today. And they asked us to uncover their unconscious thinking about it. To figure out a way to speak to them – in a way that everyone could be sitting at a dinner table and everyone would understand what you were saying – and be willing to help. AW: This was the ultimate question. How do you ask for help in a way that resonates with various targets, target markets,… So you guys came up with a segmentation scheme? GB: Yeah, absolutely. That’s definitely a great way of putting it. I mean, we wanted to find a way of connecting deeply with people so that they would understand the problem, feel a sense of urgency about the problem, feel interested in doing something and give them a path forward to do it. So absolutely. It’s just really another way to ask for help, which is, I suppose is what good marketing really is, whether it’s like, “please buy my product”, or “please give me a raise boss,” or “please help me with this project.” It’s all really about reaching out into the ether and finding a way to connect deeply with somebody or please, in this case, please care about these people. And please do something about it. AW: So whether it’s volunteering or opening up your checkbook. Right? GB: right. Absolutely. I think it’s not easy, you know, and whenever you do a project like this, you reflect on your own experience with whatever the subject at hand is. So I was reflecting a little bit on taking my kids to daycare on my way to work. And having a double stroller. And being like, I’m gonna make it to work on time. And I’m going to get the kids to the daycare and everyone’s going to make it with all their limbs intact. And but I remember seeing this woman outside of McDonald’s and she was crying on the phone. I could tell from the conversation, or I surmised, that she was being evicted from her home. She was going through a really rough spot. I remember just going through this quick thinking of Oh, no, what do I do? I want to help. I want to help. How do I help? I’ve got two kids. I can’t help. What do I do? Give her money? I can’t. That’s not going to fix it. This is a bigger problem. Should I invite her to live in our house? That would be weird. My husband probably wouldn’t approve. I don’t know what to do. And then, I scurry on to daycare and feel terrible about it, you know. But I thought about her the rest of the day. And honestly, throughout the course of this project, I feel like in so many instances, we see a problem and we don’t know what to do. We feel deeply about it, but we just … our head explodes and we move on with our lives. AW: Yeah, so it sounds as if maybe part of the research was looking at providing citizens, no matter which of the of the segments, the target markets that you outlined there, providing them with, as you said, a pathway or a sequence of things to think about and to do. What about on the other side? So how can institutions, companies, charities, effectively engage those people? I’m not sure how much detail you can share what the results or the findings were from this research. First of all, are they public? GB: The Gates Foundation has a mission against gray data (which I didn’t know about before), which is like not having stuff just sit on the shelf, they really want to make sure that the research that they pay for, the work that they do, gets out and is used, and it’s very helpful. So we’re going to be sending that out probably in the next couple of months. You know, I think that corporations, NGOs, institutions all have a role to play. It’s funny that corporations have such an outsized influence on the way that we think about things that our life you know, whether it’s just like commercials or the products that we have or the programs they set in place or the influence that they have on how government works. They have fingerprints everywhere. For good and for bad. So engaging the corporate community is so important when thinking about how to tackle any kind of societal issue or social problem, right? It doesn’t just happen on an individual level. It happens on a systemic larger level through the programs that we have and also the words that we use. So it’s certainly something that we’re thinking about. I still remember the Nike Colin Kaepernick commercial that came out. The commercials certainly made me cry. And it was just like a wonderful statement for Black Lives Matter, which is so important. AW: So coincidentally, that commercial was released right before I interviewed Jerry Zaltman for a Talk About Talk podcast focused on storytelling and I asked him – not thinking about that commercial or Nike at all, which brands he thinks are getting it right. And he said, Nike has nailed the hero archetype and the hero storyline and Colin Kaepernick, no matter what your politics are, he personifies that. So that was brilliant for them. And here we are, I know I get the shivers. Fast forward. GB: That’s awesome. AW: You mentioned a few things there. And I’m wondering, related back to how we ask for help. So you talked about the significance of corporations for profit, and specifically NGOs, and the influence that they have positive and negative on our culture and our society and everything we say think and do probably. So my question is, is that part of what you’re finding was when a message is broadly shared by corporations and other institutions, then is it encouraging people to help more when other institutions are acknowledging the issue? GB: That’s a really good point. I mean, yes, more is more. I mean, I think that any kind of social issue requires help from everywhere. You know, as a kid, I think I used to think of things very much from a personal agency perspective. You know, it was like the starfish on the beach story. You know, the kid throwing the starfish back into the ocean and the guy coming up a little girl and being like, oh, what are you doing? She’s like, I’m gonna save this one here. I can’t save the world, I know, but this one I made a difference on. And like, that’s so great, right? Like our personal agency making a difference is so important. But my God, there are a lot of starfish out there on that beach, right? And we have to understand that society is a larger world, it can’t just be us. And it can’t just be our community. Those are all important. It’s also our institutions. It’s also our programs and our networks, right? AW:  as a marketer. I’m thinking well, therefore, if we can ask for help from our networks to then also asked as you say, you’re broadening the message and more is more. GB: Yeah, absolutely. None of us get anywhere alone. You know, you reflect on that when you’re eating dinner, right? There’s so many hands that touch that food that touch that table, the touch made sure that you have electricity and air conditioning and everything and the choices in your life, the education which led you to the job, which helps you pay for the food, which is why I just I feel so much gratitude. There’s so much help that is given to us on a daily basis that we don’t even ask for… AW: Very good point. You know what , when I was preparing for this interview. I hadn’t thought of that. I’m very grateful. Of course, I’m grateful. But I hadn’t thought about the fact that in the context of how to ask for help, I’m being helped all the time. And I’m not even aware of it. GB: Yeah, it really hits home, too. When you think about what’s happening in the world right now with the pandemic, AW: A friend of mine on social media shared that she was really proud that her daughter had secured her first job, and she was a cashier at a grocery store, guess what she’s getting paid minimum wage, and now she’s putting her life on the line so that people can cash out with their groceries. That’s crazy, right? GB: Yeah, it is crazy. AW: So when I asked you about the topline results from the Poverty in America Gates Foundation project, one of the things that you said – I re-coded it or renamed it – to broadly share it across your network. So that’s thinking about it at a macro perspective, but I think also at a micro perspective, you said the words you use are really important. GB: Yeah, yeah, they really are.  Words have such resonance with us. There’s the meaning that the person intends, but then there’s the meaning that a person co-creates based on their experience around that – based on the context of the emotion… For example, you can ask somebody to help and you can say, you know, I want you to go along on a journey with me, or let’s share some time together. Or I can say, hey, do me a favor, or Can I steal time from you? Right? Those are three different asks that imply very different relationships. And one of the things that’s been kind of shocking for me, as I’ve grown up, and then also, as I’ve raised kids, and as I’ve worked, is just you can just tweak the verb, the metaphor that you’re using, and create completely different meaning a completely different experience for somebody. So we do a lot of work at my firm in metaphors, and people describe how they feel in a profound deep level through metaphorical imagery in their conversations. And then we analyze it and we look at, okay, what are the verbs they’re using? How are they using it choosing the right words when we ask somebody for help? It’s really, really important. In this research, we ended up coming up with a story about navigation, right? Because it sort of spoke to all of the different understandings that people had about poverty. Progressive thinkers think a lot about the system the larger landscape or seascape as it were of poverty. People who are conflicted think about it in terms of like a fight-or-flight or freeze. They think about, oh god, this is happening. They see the system, but they also see their personal agency and then they don’t know what to do. People who are Strivers often look at it as a sense of connection and being disconnected from a larger thing. So they’re like a boat without a rudder, just floating aimlessly. And then Bootstrappers see it as like, if you just throw hard enough and kick hard enough out of the water, you’re going to make it and so it sort of paints this larger picture of a large ocean. Like think the Titanic, you know, where people are trying to get out of the water they’re trying to survive. It’s an existential threat poverty and you navigate it right? Life is a journey and you push through and you help each other through it. You don’t let people be consumed by the element. It’s just a different way of thinking about it. AW: You’ve painted a very, very vivid image. GB: It’s kind of a heartbreaking thing. When you think about it, the idea that people in poverty feel like they’re drowning. And there’s the sense of I’d like to help you, but I’m afraid that I do then I’m going to die drown myself, right? Just so much fear. AW: It’s really powerful. So what would you do with that output? You have this, you said, it’s like navigating a seascape when you have the natural elements you talked about in the water and the drowning and the vessel and the oars and the other sailors you’re meeting along the way, all of those elements, right, GB: right. AW: So what do you do with that? GB: We were talking about how the words that you use are really important, you know, when you think about stories. You want it to be a story that people can co-create off of, or they can vibe with, really, you want it to be a story where they can see themselves in it and go, aha, here I am, here’s where I fit. And you want to be a story of some urgency, right? You wanted to have some availability was like, Okay, here’s where I fit, and I can do something. And then you want to have them get the idea of advantage of how it will be good for them to do something. So in terms of how you use it, oftentimes, we’ll say use the images that people brought in use the words that they use to echo back that deep understanding of how they think about things and in profoundly deep way. And when you do that, you give people the tingles and move people along. So that’s one thing that our research partners are going to continue doing there. They’re going to look at the images that our participants brought in and they’re going to use that in the applications of messaging around poverty in the United States, and they’re going to use the words that participants use so that’s part of it, you know, they don’t need to dress up like sailors or, you know,… AW: Right. But the spirit of it. GB: Yeah, yes. AW: Is there anything else in terms of words? GB: I think just that there’s some words that can really activate action. And then there’s some words that implicitly say don’t do anything. I got this. Like, there’s a lot of talk in the United States about how the government has been hijacked. Let’s think about hijacking for a second, though, right? You’re in the plane, someone’s taken over the cockpit. What are your options? Right? You can go and jump in and like fly the plane yourself. But that’s like a life and death scenario. But there’s a lack of agency there that that idea presents. So what’s a better metaphor? Are we navigating through this? Let’s get our sailors together. We’re gonna steer the ship differently. AW: Just those subtle tweaks, right? GB: Yeah. It’s kind of a funny thing, being a mom now because I listen to the words that my kids say and they’re still learning the meaning of words. My daughter is just learning the word respect. What kind of meaning is she co-creating around that? What is she actually thinking? What does she want to communicate? It’s kind of a fun thing to do. AW: Just you wait. Just wait till she becomes a teenager… GB: Oh, God. It’s gonna be fun. Yeah. AW: As you were speaking before, though, I was thinking this really does apply to parenting. And I mean, back to the context of asking for help. It’s like, come on, help me here. We have all these things we need to do in the house. You’re sitting there playing video games, and you can choose different metaphors, different words. Yeah. So that actually leads me nicely into my next question. And you can answer this in the context of the Gates Foundation research or other research that you’ve done. What about how to ask for help directly? GB: One research project that we did with a non-profit had to do with financial security and insecurity. And one of the things that we found was that people who were economically insecure often had a great degree of shame. Right? AW: That was gonna be my next question. Why are we ashamed to ask for help? GB: I think we’re afraid of people seeing who we are. Maybe the vulnerability of it. You know, we talked about Jerry, Dr. Jerry Zaltman. I just love that man. And, and one of the reasons that I do is that he is so humble and great at asking questions, but I’ve been in a lot of meetings with Jerry, and you’ll hear him like, take a breath, and then he’ll go, I’m sorry, I may be daft or he’ll say something self-deprecating. But tell me about the meaning of the word. What does that mean to you? And he’ll slow the whole thing down. Then it’s like, well hang on a second. What are we actually talking about? It’s beautiful, because we’ve gotten the best insights out of just slowing down and examine examining our preconceived notions about what a thing is. And it really has taught me the lesson that like there is no shame and ever asking any question about anything of anyone. AW: The amazing thing you know, you and I both went towards shame and ashamed and those are reasons why we don’t ask questions, but then there’s this. There’s this unicorn named Jerry, who actually we both put on a pedestal. GB: Yeah. AW: He’s so generous and he does ask questions, and he may not be asking for help for himself directly, but on behalf of others, he wouldn’t he wouldn’t think twice of asking for help. Right? GB: And no, right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he’s freaking marvelous. And I think one of the things I also love about him, he always, always asked, How are you? No really, how are you? In our marketing firm, we were really hot into this idea of whole mind these days. And there’s this guy named Iain McGilchrist and he talks about how the brain works together and all the parts and it’s very interesting stuff. And it basically boils down to what is the experience a person has, how do you understand it? How do you connect to people, right? AW: So I’m gonna I’m gonna shift gears here a little bit, but I’m in preparation for this interview, I read an article just in in a business magazine about how to ask for a raise or how to ask for a promotion. And it was very much about interviews and the work environment, how to ask for help, how do you ask for help? Maybe if you are charged with managing or leading a task force and you know that you’re going to need extra bodies on your team? How do you ask people to give that of themselves? Was there any insights from the research that you’ve done that might help managers at work who need help? GB: In our research, we found time and time again, that people long for connection. I mean, it goes without saying, I suppose, but it’s validated. And when people have an opportunity to connect with others, and go alongside someone in their journey, you found that it’s a deeply meaningful experience. So I think for managers who are looking for help or are looking to get support, I think understanding that when you’re on that Trapeze and you’re swinging and you’re reaching out your hand and you’re hoping someone’s there, there are tons of people who are just waiting to be picked. People love to help if you can give them a path forward and say this is what I need. Specifically, people are willing to stand up and do the right thing, you know, it can be scary to put yourself out there. AW: But you know what, what you just said is actually very empowering. People love to help and we all have scarce resources. Time, whatever is being asked of us, is probably a scarce commodity. But I love also how you said if you can resonate somehow with the person’s motivations in terms of connection and meaning. So you could go a level up from what you’re asking and say, you know, I am asking for five hours a week. And here’s what you’re going to get in return. You’re going to get to know people in other departments which can only help you and you’re also going to understand whatever so you’re providing them with connection and meaning. GB: Yes, yes. And growth possibly too. Right. I mean, people have so many different motivations coming into work, you want to paycheck but you know, you also want to grow, you want to be a star, maybe, which I mean, those are all good things. I think as a good manager, you look for the people that you… they have emotional needs and you’re looking to understand, okay, what’s driving them? What do they really want? And maybe it’s all of the above, you know, I’ll take a gold sticker, and, a raise and be better ,and to be connected, you know all of those things. AW: Yeah. And even the people that you’re asking for money for a charity, right? This is the meaning. This is the impact that you’re providing. Right? And then they can learn and help contribute to society. GB: Absolutely. I think that’s a really good point, Andrea, too. I mean, the specificity is really key to sort of say like, this is exactly what this thing will do. Your energy input here will do this good thing and you can see it here and you can see the outcome of it. One of our directors– James Forr– he just posted this cool article about how people will give in tip jars. And there are certain ways that you can elicit more tips from people. There’s all sorts of behavioral tricks, you can look them up a lot. A lot of them come from Cornell University, and they’re very, very good. But people love to express who they are, you know, so if you have a tip jar, for example that says tip here, if you like this sports team versus that’s team, you know, something that like evokes emotion… It really is good finding like where people vibe emotionally, you know, can really spur people on… AW: that reminds me related to identity. So I moderated a brainstorming session at a hospital foundation where we were brainstorming the motivations for people to give money, and one of them that came up was identity. And so you know, a lot of people they want to see their name on an MRI machine or on a building right? or the entrance to the hospital. That’s fair game. They’re still helping, right? GB: So two things. One, there’s a company called Tip Jar. They do a lot of work in the nonprofit space. One of their things is they want people to get that immediate feedback loop of Yes, you tipped and make it easy reduce friction to tip. So they have this thing where you take your credit card and you dip it and then it goes boing and it lights up it flashes so everybody knows that you tipped. Yay! And also you don’t have any change? No problem. And it’s $1 or $20, or whatever they set it for. So you just you don’t have to think you make it very easy for people. I think it’s so, so smart. AW: So the recognition is the word there, right?So identity and recognition are a little bit different. You were talking about having different identities and do, you know, vote this way or this way? That’s identity, and then there’s recognition, public recognition. GB: That’s right. That’s right. Well, also reducing friction, I think is a really interesting thing. Yeah. AW: So if you don’t mind, I’m gonna shift gears before we get to the five rapid fire questions. But when you and I were talking offline, we said we’re both really interested in hostage negotiation. I’m wondering if there are any insights about hostage negotiations in terms of what you’ve learned in this research and how to ask for help? GB: Yeah, there’s this guy named Chris Voss, and I’m just absolutely obsessed. I think that his work is so fascinating. He was a very successful hostage negotiator. He talks a lot about negotiation and the idea is right, if you can save a person from a life and death scenario, then it’s a win. You know, when you negotiate with a hostage taker, you’re not going to the hostage taker and saying, “You’re a terrible person, let the person go.” Like no, what you do is you make friends with the hostage taker, you say, gosh, this is a messed up situation. How do we together partner in this messed up situation to figure out together how to make this thing better? What are our shared goals? What’s our vision together? Let’s craft this make a better world together. And I think about that a lot when it comes to how to ask for help. It’s about saying, like, however hot mess of a situation it is right? You can always go and say, this is a situation that we’re in, how can we make this thing better together? And when it comes to poverty, people have a lot of guilt and they have a lot of shame and they have a lot of blame, whether it’s appropriate or not to feel those things. So if we all just sort of step aside as a society and say, hey, let’s look at this thing together. Not worried about fingerpointing, that opens up the possibility for progress, we’re going to be able to figure something out together and I thought it was such a brilliant insight. AW: I didn’t I didn’t know where you were headed with that! But back to the vessel and the navigation metaphor. We’re in this boat together. How are we going to get to shore? There’s a storm. Let’s figure it out. GB: Yeah, absolutely. We all can we all can take care of each other and help each other out. AW: Again, the power of the metaphor. Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? GB: I hope so. AW: Okay, first question. What are your pet peeves? GB: Jargon? I hate the word utility. Is that bad? Utilize. I don’t tell people this. So here we are, but it drives me crazy. AW: Like what? GB: people will say oh, I’m going to utilize my pen to write my name. Like my God, why don’t you just say use?!?  please. AW: So I have to tell you this I I have called people on that for years and I gave up I stopped calling people on it. GB: Why make things more complicated than they are? Say it simply. Sai it clearly. AW: Yeah, question number two, what type of learner are you? GB: So I think that I am a little bit of everything. Visual. Yes, I picture things, but I often like will roll things around in my head and I will feel them. I sort of just have my own experience in my head of things and I really do believe in experiencing everything comprehensively. AW: Number three, introvert or extrovert? GB: I’m actually an introvert, but people don’t think that’s true at my workplace. I’ve just practice a lot. I don’t know. It’s just like skydiving. No, you jump up the hatch and you just don’t look back. AW: Okay, question number four. Communication preference for personal conversations? GB: Yeah, I love FaceTime. I think that I like being able to see someone. You can understand so much more than text messages or phone calls. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? GB: I have to tell you, we always have Fresh Air going from NPR all the time. I love the stories that Terry tells and the people that she has on. AW: and just her. GB: Just her. I mean, so good, so good. AW: And also genuinely intellectually curious. Right? GB: Yeah. Which I think is so important these days, especially. AW: Yeah, I don’t think you quite said this. But you almost said it. It’s now more than ever. I keep hearing that now more than ever. GB: Now more than ever. We understand. AW:  This has been great. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise. Gretchen. Thanks for doing this… I know you’ve got a little one and Oh! GB: Hi, this is Andrea. Can you say Andrea? You never went to sleep … AW: Oh, well, that means you’re gonna go to bed early, right? Say yes.  🙂 Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #57 HOW TO ASK FOR HELP with researcher Gretchen Barton appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Learn how to choose a brand name. Are you naming a new product? A start-up? A new podcast? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki takes you through the 5 steps, from strategy to name generation, to evaluation, to searching availability and trademarking, to launching the brand! See the shownotes for a useful printable summary.   RESOURCES Brand Naming S. Patent & TM Office – https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-getting-started/trademark-basics Canadian TM database – https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/home?lang=eng Chevy Nova naming story: (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chevrolet-nova-name-spanish/) ARCHETYPES podcast episode – com/54-archetypes/ ARCHETYPES blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/archetype-blog/ PERSONALITY blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/personality-blog/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-3787-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-3787 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-3787 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-3787-0.panel-no-style, #pg-3787-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-3787-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-3787-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-3787-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-3787 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-3787 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-3787 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #56 HOW TO CHOOSE A BRAND NAME appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Female pop stars: there’s the good girl, the temptress, the diva, the hot mess, the survivor… Professor Kristin Lieb shares her research on how pop stars influence and are influenced by culture, how a female pop star’s body is her core brand asset, and how female pop stars evolve through various archetypes over their lifecycle as an artist. Note this is the 2nd episode in a 2-part series on ARCHETYPES.   REFERENCES (See also the shownotes for episode “#54 – ARCHETYPES”) Kristin Lieb Web site: kristinjlieb.com Email: [email protected] Facebook: Kristin J. Lieb Twitter: @kristinjlieb LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristin-lieb-7849b915/ Kristin Lieb, “Gender, Branding, and the Modern Music Industry: The Social Construction of Female Popular Music Stars” Routledge 2018 – https://amzn.to/3eB2EGA TEDx Talk: “Pop culture is teaching the wrong “lessons” about gender & sexuality” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUN019leZUA Other Resources Professor Jerry Zaltman – “STORYTELLING” Talk About Talk podcast interview “Marketing Metaphoria: What Deep Metaphors Reveal About the Minds of Consumers” (2008) Professor Susan Fournier – https://www.bu.edu/questrom/profile/susan-fournier/ Fournier, Susan, (1998) “Consumers and their Brands, Developing Relationship Theory in Consumer Research” Journal of Consumer Research  Fournier, Susan & Yao, Julie L., (1997) “Reviving brand loyalty: A reconceptualization within the framework of consumer-brand relationships,” International Journal of Research in Marketing, vol.14, issue 5. Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ARCHETYPES episode #54 – talkabouttalk.com/54-archetypes Email – [email protected] Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com     INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you very much, Kristin for joining us here today to talk about female popstars. Professor Kristin Lieb: You’re welcome. Thanks for inviting me. AW: Let’s start with the Grammys. Recently, Billie Eilish was the second artist and the first woman in history to sweep all four categories of the Grammys. Of course, I looked it up and previously in 1981, it was Christopher Cross who did the same thing. But here’s my question. Why is Billie Eilish resonating so deeply right now? KL: I think there are a number of reasons she’s resonating so deeply right now. First, she  represents the girl who isn’t like the others, right? So that’s a position that people like Pink had held before her, you know, where usually we have the girl next door, you know, you could look at someone like Britney Spears or Taylor Swift or you know, any of those types of stars who rose up through the ranks. Every once in a while you get a tomboy next door (that’s old person language. I’m not quite sure what we’d call that now!) But that’s what you have in Billie Eilish. Like, she’s very clear about not wanting to play the game of making her artistry about her clothing and things like that. Right? She’s very actively saying, I want to conceal my body in different ways, because I don’t necessarily want people to comment on it. AW: Right. KL: So this is something that is speaking back to a number of cultural tensions right now. So that  makes her different. The fact that she is talking about very taboo subjects, I think also makes her resonate. We could think about her big hit “Bad Guy.” Well, she was 17 when that album came out, so she’ wa presumably younger than that when the album was made, and she’s talking about having bruises on both her knees for you, and being a might seduce your dad type. Right? So this is going to set alarm bells off, you know, for some people. Is she playing a role? Is she trying to be provocative because she’s suggesting a sophistication about sex  when she’s not yet reached the age of consent? Or are we concerned that you know, maybe her collaboration with her older brother who’s  21 or 22 at the time? Is it his influence wanting to construct your image in this way for the delight of the male gaze or something like that? So there’s so much that’s so complicated, and you know, reasonable people can disagree about whether this is autobiography or a performance or perhaps a mixture of both. This is true for so many artists, but I think she’s pushing cultural buttons that make her very interesting. The other thing I should mention about her is if you watch her videos, right, if you watch her “Bury a friend” video, you know, there’s all kinds of imagery. I show this in my class. And my students take it to be like a horror film as you watch it. And they were commenting on all the images of gloved hands coming for her, syringes coming from her, images that evoke different thoughts. But then I asked, Did anybody listen to the lyrics? Because throughout that song, she’s saying, I want to end me, I want to end me, I want to end me. So if we pivot over to Demi Lovato for a minute, she performs at the Grammys. Same Grammys. That song called Anyone, and she’s literally crying as she performs. And she’s singing lines, like, you know, I told secrets till my, my throat was sore. And she keeps returning to this idea, but nobody’s listening to me and you dig back into that story and that was written right before or right after an overdose in 2018. Right. So what both of these artists are presenting to me is that we’ve culturally turned the corner from declaring young women who struggle with mental health or addiction problems in public as hot messes. And we’re now  constructing them as more triumphant survivors. But you know, there are questions we can ask ourselves about whether being so personally vulnerable in public is something that’s sustainable for a young star. AW: Wow, there’s so much to unpack there. I love your triumphant survivors comment, and it reminded me of a conversation that I had with Professor Jerry Zaltman. And he’s talking about the typical storyline of the hero’s journey, which is often associated with a male. Right? And here we are talking about female pop stars. So that’s interesting. And another one of my favorite things that you said was, is this autobiography or performance? I mean, wow, I definitely want to get into that. But before we do, let’s just back up – what is a pop star? KL: Probably that definition has changed radically in recent years. So I look at someone who is at the absolute top of the music industry game. And so historically, that meant you know, record sales and awards and notoriety and so on. And now obviously, record sales are far less important than they used to be. But certainly streaming has come along so many measures of pop star success look at both sales and streams now. But for female pop stars, music has been a tertiary concern for so long, and I hate saying that. But that’s where all of my research has led me. When I was first doing this work as a dissertation prior to writing the first edition of my book, I was  concluding through interviews with music industry professionals who make and popularize female pop stars that a dominant theme was that the popstars body was her core asset, right. And it was her body’s extendibility into all these different entertainment realms. So what I mean by that is, I think all these women are actually talented musicians. I think a lot of people like to take that away from them. But I think more than being a talented musician, you have to be talented across so many different entertainment realms in order to  hit the mark of being a pop star, as opposed to say, an indie star who makes music and is known for her music, right? So, you know, she is someone who has to be interesting enough for all kinds of  celebrity publications to want to cover her. She’s probably going to have some reality television show. She’s pretty probably going to have a fragrance line, she’s probably going to have a clothing line, if not multiple clothing lines, she’s probably going to be incredibly dominant and influential on social media, she might have her likeness, or her songs, included in games. She’s probably working with consumer brands, she’s probably working with music supervisors to some extent to get her songs into television programs and film. She’s probably talking with other stars about how to trade target markets for lack of a better way of saying it you know, let me let me court your fans while you court mine through this collaboration. Things like that, obviously, you know, sales and streaming are all part of it. But more than that, it’s cultural influence. At this point. AW: I started listing all of the jobs that female pop star does, and then when you said that they’re a collaborator with others, I thought this is exactly like the job of a podcaster – with the exception of dancing and singing. KL: Exactly, and you know, the dancing, it’s about being able to create a spectacle, right? Because that’s a huge part of it too, right? AW: Can you share with us how you conducted the research for your book? KL: I began with interviews with industry professionals who make and popularized pop stars, who make these people and I asked, what they think about as they make them and what are the, you know, consequences and outcomes and so on. And so I decided to identify and interview people who inhabited all different types of roles. So I was looking at journalists and publicists and artists, managers and people who worked at record labels and photographers and people like that, because I thought they all had something to do with the way we come to understand these figures. AW: That is a beautiful segue into the Cultural Diamond. Here is a critical framework that you use in your book. Can you describe it? KL: Sure. This is a framework created by a sociologist named Wendy Griswold and I thought it was incredibly useful and I think it is … in fact I use it every term in my classes as a starting point – as a way of understanding pop star influence and influences. And what I mean by that is at the top of the diamond, you have the social world. So if I look at – I’m just picking from random, but if I look at Christina Aguilera – so Christina Aguilera as a woman who lives in the United States culture in 2020, knows what she gets rewarded for and punished for, as a woman, right? So that’s without her being a pop star or anything that. Her just being a participant in the social world. So other points of the diamonds would be the producer or handler  points on the diamond. And these are all of the people who influenced Christina Aguilera. People who might weigh-in about how she’s singing or how she’s dancing or themes she’s talking about, or, you know, she was on The Voice. So how she wanted to represent herself there, whether she wants to do a collaboration. It could be anyone who has  any stake in her business or her brands. It could be influencers. Now obviously, these people are more influential when artists are younger and less established right? Once an artist gains her following, she’s able to call more of her shots. Then if you look at the other side of the diamonds, you have the audience and that’s us . We get trained to expect pop stars to look and act and sound a certain way. Which is why when you have Adele  breaking into the market,  she doesn’t look  a pop star. And, you know, other people have spoken about that saying, well, when did it become that every popstar is supposed to look like Britney Spears? And you have people like Aretha Franklin saying, Hey, I was at my best singing weight when I was 188 pounds, right? So we get these cultural images of what pop stardom looks like. And then you know, we’re confused when someone seems to  contradict that. So the audience also has some influence on what the cultural object, which is the fourth point on the diamond. That’s what the popstar ends up being. So as a cultural object, Christina Aguilera looks at all of these things that reinforce each other, but don’t cause each other. And she figures out what kind of popstar she’s going to be, right? Which gets to your question of agency a little bit that we talked about before. So, you know, what if a popstar wants to bring herself to market in a hyper-sexualized way? Do  people get upset about objectification in the same way, if this is something that’s coming from her? And I think the Cultural Diamond‘s answer to that would be, it’s hard to really know what a person wants from the inside. When all of these forces, these external forces are shaping, how do you even build your image from the beginning? Does that make sense? AW: Absolutely. So that was a beautiful depiction. And what I’m going to do is in the show notes, I’ll put a reference so that listeners who are interested can reference the cultural diamond. So we talked about the four points being the Social World, and then there’s the Creator, which is kind of the industry players, as you said. Then there’s the Receiver, which is the In this case, the music consumers, the listeners, the participants, I guess. And then the fourth point is the Cultural Object which is, in this case, the female artist, the female pop star herself. And you mentioned how as the female pop star becomes more established as they have more of a following, and I’m paraphrasing, I’m not using your exact words here, but you said, they may come to have some more power so that they can be more influential, I guess in their negotiations with the creators or the players. And it reminded me of we were talking before we press record here about your TEDx talk, which I will also leave a link to in the show notes. It’s a fantastic talk and you talk about power and objectification, it occurred to me that these are related. Those with less power may be objectified. Right, but then again, the artist may seek to be objectified, because maybe that’s how the players make them. So can you talk about a little bit about power and objectification? KL: It’s so hard. And you know, ultimately, I obviously want women artists to be able to present themselves to the world in the way that feels, you know, real and comfortable to them, right? I think where I started getting bothered by the patterns was, if there’s only way one way to  get to the top and succeed, then I think there’s a problem. And also, so many of these artists start so young. And I think what that makes me think about is the fact that you haven’t really established your own identity yet. And then you’re being coached toward these goals or toward these other types of artists positions, that may not be where you would have gotten yourself. If you had been given time to develop your identity on your own, you’re  shaped into a mold and these molds look a lot alike, in a lot of cases, and really around center the body and costumes and dancing and, you know, these kind of things – more than some of those artists might like, right? So you know, it’s tricky. You can’t ever really say, well, this artist wanted this or this person told this artist to do this. I don’t think it’s that simple. I think it’s all those surrounding factors in the cultural diamond influencing what you think your best choice or your best move or your best personal presentation might be. AW: so it’s like they’re mutually reinforcing they’re all the arrows are pointing in all directions to and from all of the points of the diamond. KL: Absolutely. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t mention things like early Britney Spears and Mandy Moore videos were directed by a literal porn director, Gregory Dark. So these influences – they’re not accidental. And so when that’s encoded in teenage popstar DNA, that matures in different ways, for lack of a better word. AW: So let’s get into the maturity. I guess the lifecycle of female pop stars, which is one of the main contributions of your book, which I absolutely devoured. Can you describe the female pop star lifecycle? KL: So I can tell you the intent of the lifecycle model for popular women music stars. The intent of it was to show that there were very enduring patterns of representation for women who were granted permission in various ways to be, or remain, at the top of the music industry, that there was a reason for me that most of my favorite artists never made it beyond the indie level,  the indie star level. So there are plenty of men who I would argue had been successful and flipped over to be very, very popular musicians. But I was realizing that this didn’t really happen with women. I was trying to figure out whether it was a marketing problem. I started to realize that part of it was that the way they were packaged, courted a certain type of audience and maybe put off another kind of audience. So this was just my way of trying to say, I think this is the way the game is, you know, and I would like to record that. And I would like to talk about how we could possibly change and expand this over time. I think it has started to change and expand over time which is good. I can tell you where those things happen. Normally you start in a phase that I call the good girl and that is, you know, the girl next door or the girl you know people want to bring home to mom. She’s not objectionable. She’s hetero-normatively pretty and nobody is really concerned about her behavior or her aggressive views or anything like that. Think about someone like Meghan Trainor, right? She might be a good example. Now though most of the top stars that have gone through this in some variety or other over time. Then you segue into becoming a temptress, right? And so the good girl to temptress is probably most visible when somebody starts as an artist, you know, who becomes prominent when they’re 15 and then they reach the age of consent, right? And then they become the temptress because now it’s safe. Billie Eilish challenges that a little bit. She’s a little bit under the age of consent. That’s another thing that I think makes her differently provocative. Once you hit temptress, it’s the songs and the content … It seems like all these things become more about  sexual availability and the body and sexual appeal and so on and so forth. Right? So you’re moving away from this unobjectionable girl next door into this sort of, you know, temptress type position, and then you get to the middle of the model. And obviously, you can’t remain either a good girl or a temptress forever. And that’s why you see a female popstars changing their images so often. You need to remain dynamic, but dynamic within the parameters of these different categories. AW: the example that comes to mind for me is Madonna. KL: Sure, right. People say Madonna completely reinvented herself every six months, but she had an overarching brand theme. Right? So you could say that her overarching brand theme was something like, you know, sexual playfulness and provocation or something like that. So the way that she communicated that changed many, many, many times. But I would say that the reason that we were able to track her brand was that she had a very meta level brand theme. Does that make sense? AW: Yes. I think it’s brilliant marketing, is what I’d say. KL: Absolutely. And we see that alive and well and beyond in plenty of other popstars as well. It’s a very successful strategy as long as you don’t sacrifice that overarching brand theme and confuse people, right? Or make people feel like you’ve betrayed the brand that they committed to, because these brands  feel like relationships as our friend Susan Fournier has pointed out very eloquently in her research. So then you get to the middle of the lifecycle model, and you have some people who are like, Okay, my ego needs have been met, I’m going to change my focus, I’m not going to be a pop star anymore. I’m going to do something else. So some people go into advocacy work, some people make lateral moves into television or film, but people are just like, maybe I don’t like the terms of this game. And I have the talent to do other things. So I’m going to do that . Somebody like Queen Latifah, right, who goes on goes and becomes a film star and then also becomes a television talk show host and a CoverGirl spokesperson and so on, would be an example of that. AW: So they’re going multimedia, basically. KL: Sure, I would say becoming more of a general purpose celebrity than someone who is known as a popstar. Right. So then we have the diva, which is one of the coveted categories, right? This is where the way that I’m operationalizing people might be different than the way others think of the term. But I’m just saying you’re a best in class singer or musician. And what this entitles you to is to be covered more for your singing or musicianship, then your body, your boyfriend, your accessories, and your dresses and so on. So this is one of the rare moments in the pop star life cycle where we actually talk about the thing that you’re essentially meant to be doing as a musician, right, which is depressing, but at least good that this category exists. All of these terms are things that came out of my research. So in interviews of people, they were referring to talent in this way. These are the terms used to talk about human talent in the music industry, and I thought – I have a choice. I can either sanitize that language as an academic or I can show the industry as it is. And as I said earlier, I really wanted to show the industry as it is. So these terms that I’m using are not my terms. These are terms that arose in these interviews. This is what I heard, and that’s why I retain them. So the next category is called the whore. And this  is operationalized in two different ways, again, coming out in the woods in the interviews. The first is that this person would do anything for money, and it  shows in her performance. And the other is just that we take the temptress a little too far. And so everything is about sex, right? Your entire image is about sex. There’s another category called “exotic” which is meant to be enclosed in finger quotes. And this  disgustingly means that we don’t quite know where you fit into our normal popstar template. And it often means that you’re not from the United States, it often means that you’re not white because we just don’t know what to do with you. So it’s like a catch-all category. Then we have the provocateur, and this is another coveted category because these are the people who just push our culture buttons, right? And then probably known more for that than for anything else. So certainly Beyoncé has done this. Certainly Miley Cyrus has done this at different points. They’re asking us to think about different things. They’re asking us to think about what it means to be a black woman in contemporary culture. It’s asking us to think about what it means to be pansexual and genderqueer at a time that people had no idea what those terms meant, right? So, you know, both of them obviously received a lot of attention, a lot of praise, and a lot of a lot of respect. AW: Everybody’s going to say, by definition, if you’re a provocateur, you are probably polarizing. And that would increase your PR. KL: Absolutely. And you know, but it becomes precarious in cancel-culture too, right? Because now, you know, we’re seeing all kinds of stars having things decontextualized and then cancelled. There’s not even a discussion around recovery. I’ve written about that elsewhere. Certainly, in the queer community. AW: I read that in one of the papers that you wrote, it was Yes, they were rejected for not being queer enough. Or not doing it properly. As you said, wow. KL: Yeah, and so if you’re going to be out there as a provocateur, there are a lot of forces  wanting to cancel you, you know, some of it probably deserved in different ways. And some of it probably not at all deserved and fueled by hatred. Then we have this category called the hot mess, which is, you know, probably the worst of the name categories. But you know, if you think about when I started doing this work that so my dissertation, I finished it in 2007. And this was a word that everyone was tossing around. And so the hot mess was a category that captured the star out of control who was being covered more for her counter normative behavior than anything else, right. So think about Amy Winehouse, or somebody  that. And I think we’ve become culturally a lot more sensitive to what women struggle with, in daily life now in 2020. But in 2007, we weren’t a savvy about that we didn’t have #MeToo, and #TimesUp and all these different things worked in this cultural conversation. So in 2007, it was still like, hey, why is this woman out of control? (Ha-ha) One of my respondents said I remember, when they act like clowns, people laugh. But you know, as I started to unpack that over time, I’m like, wow. But like, there’s a lot behind what’s making people act like that. And we have not yet reached the point where we could ask more empathetic questions about what might be driving that behavior. Is it a mental health issue? Is it an addiction problem? Is it somebody who’s experienced trauma? Is it all of these things maybe coming together and making somebody act out? Like, maybe we should be like, hey, let’s get her help. Let’s not laugh at her. So that has happened over time, right? So when the second edition of my book came out, I was able to write a lot about that. Because I think artists started owning these narratives and explaining what was going on. And then, you know, most reasonable human beings don’t want to laugh at someone when you’ve heard the backstory, right? And so people like Demi Lovato has  taken those struggles and explained her journey through them and emerges triumphant. And I think at this cultural moment, that is a really powerful position that I think resonates with a lot of people who feel that way themselves. AW: Yeah, and I just want to point out for the listeners, what you’re describing implicitly here goes back to the cultural diamond where at certain points in time there were certain templates, as you call them, or perhaps archetypes that would be fulfilled by these female pop stars. Sometimes there was no other terminology available for it, but then because of what they did, you could think about the influence that they then had on the social world or on society and maybe it’s probably because of them that some of these changes have happened. KL: That’s right. And so literally between the first edition in 2013, and the second edition, I added this category called Survivor. People started this conversation about like, hey, that’s not nice. I mean, it’s even back to the Leave Britney Alone video kind of thing that predated this. More people got on that bus saying, hey, there’s a human behind this popstar facade. They build brands to protect themselves in different ways, which is actually smart.  Would you want to be a completely vulnerable human self in public when people are looking to criticize from every possible dimension? But those people who showed too much of their human selves got really punished for it. So this is interesting reclamation of now, if you’re sharing your human self, you’re going to be celebrated it for it. Right? But there’s a tension between – is that sustainable? Is that ultimately healthy for a human to be so personally exposed in public? And so I think that’s our next question to answer. How do we manage identity publicly? Right? And like, what parts of ourselves do we share with audiences  and what parts of ourselves should we keep private? AW: So that that’s related to the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is how strategic are female pop stars, I guess and their handlers in terms of managing their way through the lifecycle. And this is  given that they are all managing their quote unquote, brand, are they actually thinking about a longer term lifecycle or are they thinking here’s what the brand is? KL: You know, I don’t even know that they’re thinking that’s what the brand is. AW: Really? KL: I think you have people managing these careers in all different kinds of ways, I mean, a lot of people – this was fascinating – during the interviews so many people said, I loved having the time to actually think about what I do.  I don’t think about what I do. I go on instinct. A lot of us are like that. You know, certainly many jobs don’t give us any time for introspection. You might look at past patterns of success to predict future patterns of success, which is flawed in many ways, right? But you do it. So you go like, Oh, this artist is kind of did this. So we’re going to bring her to market in this way. Right? So your instinct is around what succeeded before you. And I think you repeat those things unconsciously. So I really enjoyed the process of talking through that with these respondents. I selected them because I thought they were incredibly good at what they did. And also, I remember my dissertation advisor being like, My God, these people have like PhDs in the music industry, and that’s a great way to put it. They know the ins and outs of this, but they’re not academic and they’re not necessarily speaking in brand terms or communication terms or theoretical model terms. They’re doing their job. AW: That is fascinating. But I have to ask you, have you had any direct feedback from anyone? KL: Yeah, I’ve definitely had feedback from artists and artists’ managers in particular. Artists saying, My God, I knew something was f—-d up. But I didn’t realize it was this f—-d up, kind of thing. You know, thank you for writing that so that I can understand that it wasn’t just my experience. This is something that happens. And artists’ managers, I’ve had, say, I’m so happy to have your book because I don’t know how to explain this industry to  my young female artists. And now I can just  give your book to them. And that’s obviously amazing feedback. And I love it. AW: I love that. That’s the ultimate compliment, I think, that the handlers are giving the book to their female pop stars. And I mean, ultimately, it’s not just that you’re influencing them, but you’re actually telling them to be more strategic and thinking longer term and harder and in a different way about what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. Right? KL: Yeah, you know, it’s really up to them how to use the information, how they read it. And being not so self-congratulatory, they could just as easily use it to say, I need to learn how to adhere to one of these types of succeed, right? And that isn’t my intent. But like, let’s say that somebody changes their image 10% so that they can approximate one of these things and have a much wider audience than they would have otherwise, I guess it would be successful for her. Right? AW: And/or if she was more authentic? It sounds like you’re advocating for authenticity. Is that true? KL: Interesting. It’s almost like managed authenticity. I think there are things that are true about all of us in multiple contexts, right? So I might be one way as a professor, I might be another way with my family. I might be another way when I’m out with my oldest friends. And I might be another way when I’m at an academic conference, right? But there are some things about me that are going to be the same in all those contexts. And I think that when we talk about brands, what we want is that over-arching brand theme that is true about us or them in all contexts, and that way, they’re not caught in hypocritical tangles. They’re really their authentic selves. And we’re not catching them in contradictions because they’re being their authentic selves, but they’re not being their complete, vulnerable, authentic selves. Because I think for female pop star sustainability, I want them to have healthy lives with degrees of privacy and people taking care of the, People thinking about their well-being and not how much money they can make off of them before the windows slams shut on their career kind of thing. Does that make sense? AW: Absolutely. As you’re saying that, I’m just thinking this is great advice for any of us. And your point about you being an academic and all the different circles that you navigate. I guess this is kind of the ultimate question in terms of communication and the way we represent ourselves. My question is, why do women seem to repeatedly get framed in the same way? I’m thinking about the temptress archetype in particular – again and again be it as you’ve very eloquently described with a female pop star or in our quote unquote real life. KL: What’s been interesting is the conversations I’ve had with other scholars over the years about this,  people whose work I really like. Yeah, they pointed out to me that your lifecycle model  has mythological origins, religious origins, these patterns that you’re seeing these types grow out of vast sociological dysfunction with regard to the way we see and process women, right. So I don’t think this is a music industry problem so much. I mean, that’s what I’ve chosen to focus on. But I think it’s just a representation of cultural dysfunction,  as it manifests in industry. AW: Wow. It’s depressing, isn’t it? KL: I mean, it is. And it’s so horrifying that I just wanted to tell other people what I found, because I want people to be horrified by it. And I want them to destroy my model so that I can never write another edition of my book. I really want this to change. And I think there are all kinds of indicators now that have changed – more I would argue in film and television than in popular music just yet, but there are definitely rays of hope. Even watching female pleasure as opposed to female performance for the sake of men. A move away from very strict  male gaze terms to more empathetically creating and viewing women as they pursue their desires. AW: Well, thank you for taking a topic that I think some people can dismiss, because it’s pop star, right? It’s  pop culture, it’s so easily dismissed, but it’s actually really, really important. It’s a really important node in the cultural diamond. So I want to thank you. Is there anything else you want to add before we move on to the five rapid fire questions? KL: One thing related to what you just said. I think you’re absolutely right. When a woman musician sells or streams or becomes culturally persuasive enough, we designate her a female pop star, right? Her genre disappears, right? This doesn’t happen to men. So one of the reasons culturally, she ends up a female pop star is that this disempowers her because it makes her sound frivolous or artificial or fleeting, right? Just what you said about pop culture. Like, we dismiss that, right? A rock star is different, but we don’t see many women rock stars at the top of the industry. AW: Oh, gosh, my blood is boiling. Alright, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. Are you ready? KL: I think so. AW: Number one, what are your pet peeves? KL: My pet peeve is people who cut in line. I’m like, we’re all busy. We all have things to do. This cutting in line thing – that’s entitlement. It’s like, my time is more important than yours. I’m just going to get ahead of you. I hate that. AW: I’m with you on that. Okay, second question. What type of learner are you? KL: I think it depends on what I’m learning. I don’t know how to answer that question. I think I use all of this ways to learn. AW: Well, most of us do. Yeah. Okay. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? KL: Ambivert. I trained my introverted self to be an extrovert to do the things that I’ve wanted to do professionally, AW: then you’ve done very well. I saw you on stage. In your TEDx talk, KL: that was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. AW: You’d never know. And again, I’m going to leave a link for that. Okay, question number four – communication preference for personal conversations? KL: Depends on the context, right? Like, if I’m confirming a reservation? Text, we don’t need to talk about that. If we’re talking about something of substance, I would much rather see you or talk to you on the phone. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? KL: No.  It’s rapid fire, right? I just I consume so much. I don’t necessarily go back to the same things again and again. I think I consume just in a different and more organic way. AW: Got it. All right. Thank you so much for sharing all your research and your knowledge about female pop stars. KL: Yeah, well, I really appreciate your interest in this work too. Thank you so much.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #55 ARCHETYPES & FEMALE POP STARS with Professor Kristin Lieb appeared first on Talk About Talk.

ARCHETYPES are shared, universal patterns that help us understand characters and stories.  We employ archetypes in both our consumption (of stories, movies, music) and our communication – of ourselves, our experiences and our brands. Learn about the stages in the hero’s journey and 12 common archetypes, one of which may describe you and/or your brand. This is episode one of a two-part podcast series on ARCHETYPES.   REFERENCES BOOKS  “Collected Works of C.G. Jung, Volume 9 (Part 1): Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious” – https://amzn.to/3icyIns “The hero and the outlaw: Building extraordinary brands through the power of archetypes” Margaret Mark & & Carol Pearson –  https://amzn.to/38bkU7V “Awakening the Heroes Within” Carol Pearson – https://amzn.to/31sOpkg       ARCHETYPES *** 12 Common Archetypes Summary (one-pager PDF): https://talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/ARCHETYPES-Summary.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes Joseph Campbell & The Hero’s Journey Summary – https://www.movieoutline.com/articles/the-hero-journey-mythic-structure-of-joseph-campbell-monomyth.html Star Wars – https://thescriptlab.com/features/screenwriting-101/12309-the-heros-journey-breakdown-star-wars/ Mothers in Disney movies –https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roles_of_mothers_in_Disney_media# 6 well-known stories – https://venngage.com/blog/heros-journey/ Ernest Dichter & brand archetypes – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Dichter Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki “Storytelling” with Harvard professor & author Jerry Zaltman – https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]                               ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #54 ARCHETYPES with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are you leading a virtual team? Learn how to lead a virtual team and excel in a crisis. During a crisis, everything is magnified, including leadership skills.  Executive coach Heather Stark shares her “5C’s of creating a virtual culture” framework to help leaders navigate and excel in the new normal. (This is part 2 of a two-part series on LEADERSHIP with Heather Stark. See also episode #52: “Communication Skills of Effective Leaders”)  REFERENCES & LINKS Heather Stark Heather Stark & Stark Coaching Email – [email protected] LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherestark/ Crisis Management Tylenol poisonings Crisis management – http://www.ou.edu/deptcomm/dodjcc/groups/02C2/Johnson%20&%20Johnson.htm Institute for P.R. – https://instituteforpr.org/crisis-management-and-communications/ HBR podcast – https://hbr.org/podcast/2020/04/managing-crises-in-the-short-and-long-term HBR – https://hbr.org/2020/03/are-you-leading-through-the-crisis-or-managing-the-response Forbes – https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/2020/04/16/the-role-of-business-leadership-in-times-of-crisis/ Leading A Virtual Team Academy of Management Perspectives – http://public.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/faculty/malhotra/leadingvtsamp.pdf HBR – 5 Qs that newly virtual leaders should ask – https://hbr.org/2020/05/5-questions-that-newly-virtual-leaders-should-ask-themselves HBR: https://hbr.org/2013/06/making-virtual-teams-work-ten Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com FB Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you very much, Heather, for joining us to talk about leading in a crisis and managing a virtual team. Heather Stark: Thanks for having me, Andrea. I’m happy to be here today. AW:  So I’m really curious to hear your personal and professional experience that you had in the first few weeks of COVID and physical distancing. Can you share that with the listeners? HS: Yes. I remember especially what happened before the official directive came out to physically distance and close nonessential businesses – there was a lot of stress as leaders were trying to figure out what was the right thing to do for their organizations. Compounding this, Coronavirus hit the west coast before the east coast. Leaders were really struggling with, what do I do? Am I going to have to tell my employees that they’re staying home? Do I lay off employees? And so, for those first few weeks, my learning curve went way up. Because I was on the phone with clients that I would normally talk with once a week, up to three times a week, trying to help them figure out: How do I communicate this? What do I say to people? What’s the message that I’ve giving? Should I tell people that I’m worried? How much do I share?  This was a really strong example of leading without a playbook. Nobody knew. And we’ve all heard about ways that you’re supposed to manage during a crisis.  You learn as much as you can. You put together a task force and a communication strategy. In this case you get medical advice, you get all different types of advice to understand how to move forward. But everything was unfolding in such a surreal way, in many ways… AW:  and fast, right? HS: Fast, you know. Every day something was changing. And that processing speed that was needed, that agility that was needed, and the ability to be kind of vulnerable and be collaborative through this process – and importantly involving people in the organization at all different levels. One of the challenges when people started moving to  remote work was getting everybody up to speed and equipping people to work from home. Logistics around security, equipment –  A lot of people have laptops, a lot of people have devices to work remotely, but administrative staff didn’t. They had a fixed desk with a desktop often, and in some cases those are  people that are really needed to interface with clients – even if it’s remote. So getting them up to speed, getting them able to work remotely, figuring out: does somebody need to stay in the office? If they do, how do you protect them? How do you do that and what if they get sick…? How do you run your business with no one in the office? So all of the different pieces, the emotion that was going into decisions, was a very different way than people were used to leading. It wasn’t all strategic and there weren’t steps to follow. There wasn’t a playbook. And so making it up on the fly, being agile, listening to people, collaborating with people, and being willing to make some mistakes, and then go, Hey, you know what, I didn’t roll this part out quite right. Okay. But this is what we’re doing now.   I think it’s been very humbling for a lot of leaders. And there’s been a lot of growth over the last little while and I’ve been super proud to see how quickly they’ve done it. I know the clients that I work with, they’ve adopted things that would have taken months, years to get through their organization, in a couple of days, a couple of weeks. I’ve been very, very impressed with the agility of leaders. AW:  It sounds like a lot of the skills that are really important in successfully navigating through this crisis are very similar to the skills that we talked about in the previous episode about leadership and communication, right? It’s just that they’re amplified. It’s so intense. HS: Yes.  I think that one of the things that I’ve learned, and I think a lot of leaders have learned is that if there are cracks, they are magnified now. So if there are challenges in your organization, this is a way for them to be magnified. And if there were people that were feeling a little disconnected – I talked before about how each individual has their individual culture. They bring that to the organization. If people are working on their own remotely, and the leader doesn’t watch and try to build a little bit of cohesion and adapt how they’re  connecting people together, there is the danger that the employees will become silos of individuals disconnected from the organization. It takes confidence. It takes a lot of courage to be able to lead in a time like this, because everything is really amplified. They’re learning new skills. For example, A lot of leaders started doing videos as a way of getting a message to their whole team. They may not be comfortable doing videos, but they’ve learned that skill. They’re learning things like the nuances of Zoom such as looking up into the camera as opposed to down and learning all these different ways of communicating. So I think it’s been a steep learning curve. And it’s been really challenging. But a lot of leaders, I think, have really risen to the occasion. AW:  to your point about rising to the occasion, as you’re as you’re going through this list of experiences and the challenges. I’m feeling stress, like empathetic stress for these people. Especially when they’re working in a virtual team. It’s just so intense. And I guess one of the things that I’ve heard over and over again, is how important it is to celebrate the wins, right? HS: Oh, definitely. And that’s a huge way of connecting with your team to individuals. It is so important to not just be focussed on the doom and gloom, but to really be focused on how you’re moving forward. How you’re having those meaningful human moments with each other. Those informal water cooler moments. Celebrating birthdays. Celebrating something that’s gone well with your clients. I’ve been doing workshops with a lot with teams during this time. During those sessions I’ve introduced what I call the five C’s of developing a virtual team culture. And CELEBRATING is one of those. AW:  So you mentioned your five C’s framework, and I’d love you to take us through those. So there’s celebrating and what else is there? HS: CLARITY, it’s very, very important to clarify so that you’re communicating in a way that people understand and there’s a clear purpose. CONNECTION, creating a connection with individuals to the organization. People that are connected to the organization are more likely to be motivated to work. Creating a virtual team connection can be very challenging and requires intention.  COMMITMENT, making people feel that they’re just not a cog in the wheel  that’s helping things move forward, but that you actually are committed to the health of the individual, that you think they’re important to you as well. It’s the people first, who create the mission of the organization… it’s all part of moving the organization forward. It’s people who are going to be able to move the organization forward. And COMMUNICATION. When you’re talking about culture, as soon as you start talking about culture, the place I go to is communication. Because it permeates everything that we do. It is so important. And it’s sometimes easier to talk about developing communication norms than developing the right culture of an organization. Because if you get the communication part, right, you actually are developing the culture of the organization. So I think that that is very important. AW:  So we’ve got clarity, connection, commitment, celebration, and then communication. HS: Yeah AW:  this is this is a really amazing framework that leaders are going to find very helpful, in your experience with your clients and your I guess your observations of what’s going on in business. Is there one that kind of rises up as being a particular challenge these days? HS: So I think  starting with clarity is really important. At the beginning, you were just giving as much information as you could and keeping people up to date. And now, at this point, being really clear, reminding people: what’s the mission of the organization? What are the values of the organization? How do you want to work together as an organization?   what’s the structure, you’re going to put around things to help with uncertainty? How are you going to make things clear for people so that they understand what their goals are, what their accountability is in this, so that they feel that they are not lost? You’re giving them those touch points so they can understand what’s beyond this horizon? What are we working towards and clarify what they’re working on. AW:  I can see how that one would be the most challenging, because it’s almost like an oxymoron. We’re dealing with this moment of uncertainty, then even the directives that we’re getting from the agencies and the governments are inconsistent, right? We see the mayor doing one thing and the premier doing something else and people violating protocol and people instituting or recommending different protocols and it’s very confusing and until consistent directives are communicated from these regulators. How’s the CEO or leader in an organization supposed to do that. But I love your point of clarifying then what we are certain about, we are certain about, for example, our corporate mission, we are certain about our structure, right. So identifying, I guess, in highlighting what we are certain about. HS: I think it’s very important. And this speaks to commitment as well. Engaged employees are more productive employees. A lot of people have been asking me, how do I motivate employees? Because you had that peak where you’re really in that mode of high urgency, and then sort of drifting along, and now we’re going into the re-entry for some organizations. And while some people are going to be working from home still for quite a while to come, others are going in because they’re essential to help your organization move forward. And so how do you get that commitment? How do you make people feel that they’re important? And so listening to the employees, making them feel like you’re committed to their well-being, setting some boundaries for your employees, helping them to have a structure even by just having a schedule, having predictability whenever possible is really important. And that’s an important commitment that you can make. AW:  So I have a really specific question related to that, that I’m curious about your take on. So structure and like a schedule, rituals that the organization is going to enable and reinforce, are, I guess, really important for us – both in terms of productivity, and even just in terms of our psychology and staying motivated, right?  However, that said, there are parents at home right now, particularly those with young kids who are basically their child’s teacher during the day. And if the organization is saying, you’re now expected to be available, between nine and five, they have to be on. So have you heard stories like this about it being particularly challenging to I guess engage your workforce where there’s diverse family situations and home situations going on? HS: Yeah, and I think that’s all about listening with empathy. There’s a lot of organizations that are doing these pulses, these anonymous pulses, to see how everybody’s coping. That’s great but When you do that you don’t actually find out what is happening at the individual level with people in your organization. And people might be afraid to speak up.  Say for example you have a Monday morning get-together where it’s a touch base, and people can kind of have a coffee chat with each other, or maybe do that on a Friday. It’s really important to have those touch points, but people probably aren’t going to be sharing in that large group that they’re struggling …  They may not feel comfortable saying right now, I actually have a two year old that’s sitting on my lap and I have to go change a diaper. Or I’ve got a 13 year old that’s having trouble following along with their zoom lesson in school and I have to go police that and make sure that they’re not watching videos instead of doing their schoolwork. It’s these kinds of challenges that can be really, really draining for people. And it’s happening, although both men and women are impacted, on the whole more women than men are taking on more this burden. I’ve had conversations with people, where a child was crawling all over someone, so this is something where empathy comes in. And that commitment to the people in the organization is super important when you’re dealing with a virtual team and mixed teams. It’s been announced that there won’t be summer camps either. So what are employees that are dealing with the children going to be doing while they’re working at home? They’re having a lot of difficulty with the boundaries between home and work. For some parents hours for productivity have changed, there’s a lot of working from 6am to 10am. That means that you’re not working during the ‘mainstream’ hours of the day, the main work hours  quote, unquote, of the day and then maybe  starting up again when your child’s gone to bed. And so that flexibility is really important. I actually have been doing a lot of work with organizations to help them develop a communication playbook so that they can actually learn, do a survey to understand what are people’s needs. For example,  If I need to talk to you about something that’s a little bit more personal, how would you like me to do that? Would you like me to pick up the phone? Or would you like it to be by zoom or by FaceTime?   How are we going to communicate what your hours are to other people, as we move into a hybrid situation, where we’re going to have people that are continuing to work remotely and others that are in the office.  Some people are going to leave the experience of working from home saying I was not effective working from home, I don’t know how anybody can be effective working from home. Others are going to be like, wow, I was so effective working from home, I want to do this forever. AW:  Right. HS: And so you’re going to be coming into the situation now where people are going into re-entry. Okay, how do you balance this? How do you do fairness? How do you build trust, when some people are remote, and some people are working in the office? How do these things work? So this is where I’m doing a lot of work with clients around developing a communication playbook, which  will act as a guide for how to best communicate as a team and how you deal with challenges that occur within the team. AW:  So I heard in your answer there, there’s almost a hierarchy of really understanding the preferences. And the capabilities given their home situation of your employees. So you can get anonymous feedback, right? That’s kind of the first tier. The second tier would be some sort of group meeting and checking in could be the Monday morning zoom call or the Friday afternoon call. And then at the top level, you need one-on-one input and understanding from each of your staff members, I suppose about what’s going to work for them in terms of timing in terms of communication medium, and all of the preferences. And I guess this is an opportunity for a lot of organizations and leaders to really get to know the people that they’re employing – all of the virtual team members. Right? and, and to engage them to be more fully productive than they’ve ever been. HS: Yeah, because people if they are able to work in the way that is the most productive for them, they will be more productive. I think at the beginning was really difficult to do this. But now that we’re seeing  a lot of organizations are saying we’re not going back till the end of the year. We’re only going to have a skeleton staff. We’re going to be completely virtual forever. So there’s different levels within organizations. I think for most organizations, there’s going to end up being a combination. I think that there’s going to be a fundamental shift. AW:  Yeah. So I’m actually really thrilled about that, to be honest. I worked directly with a CEO a couple years ago, who was very against people working from home. She was managing an organization where I understand people needed to be there on at least a semi regular basis, but there was really no reason they couldn’t institute virtual team work. And now she’s working at home, and she’s seeing that you can still be productive, and I’m so thrilled for her staff. HS: Yeah, but this is what it took. Because I think for a lot of people, in the past there was this feeling that ‘working from home’ was  like taking the day off or taking it easy. Now for people that enjoyed working from home, they are saying no, I can actually be productive and work effectively from home and actually, from what I’ve seen, I think a lot of people have worked harder through this time than they normally would have. AW:  I’ve heard that too. HS: Things have changed.  People that have been wanting to work from home for a long time and felt that may be more productive without the commute, without having to work during specific set hours, they’re going to be more productive. And so in some ways it’s a gift to organizations also, even from the perspective of office space, organizations may need less space.  But I think in person meetings are still going to be important at some level, for connecting and contact when we’re able to go back to them, but a lot of people will be able to do their day-to-day work very effectively and very productively remotely. And  you know what? For the people that feed on other people, those people that need that in-person interaction with people, having the opportunity for them to be able to go into the office and be in person in the office, that’s fantastic. Everybody learns differently. Everybody communicates differently. Everybody works differently. So this is a real opportunity to maximize productivity, maximize motivation, and really get the best possible workforce that you can have. AW:  As you’re describing that I’m feeling. I’m forecasting that there’s going to be a bit of a shake up, of course there is but one of the shakeups will be there will be organizing Along this continuum of we’re going to go back to being face to face, we have to because of this, and then the hybrid that you’re talking about, which will probably be quite common. And then the other organizations that we’ve heard about in the news that are going to be almost 100%, virtual. And then you have the individuals that have preferences for based on their personal situation, and based on their communication preferences, and their work preferences. And I think there’s going to be a shake up where people are going to be like, Okay, if I can’t do this with this firm, I’m going to go to another firm, where this is how they operate. I love this virtual team culture. And ultimately, hopefully, the firms and the individuals can all be more productive. HS: Exactly. And most of my clients developed some sort of questionnaire over the last couple of weeks where they got feedback from their organization. How has this experience worked for you? Would you prefer to continue to work from home if that’s possible? If so, how many days per week? And so even asking questions of your organization, what are things that we started doing during this time that we should continue doing as an organization? You’re getting that feedback. This is such a gift to be able to get feedback from your organization. AW:  So you’re describing a format of questionnaire that I really like using the start, continue stop, what should we start doing? What should we stop doing? And what should we continue doing? And now it’d be a great time to take a pulse with that. And that leads me I guess, to the last question, which is, how will these skills of crisis management on behalf of leaders and particularly what’s been going on for the last couple months with COVID help managers ongoing in the quote unquote, new normal that we’ve started to describe here? HS: I think continue with the learning and the openness.   The agility that we’ve seen is a really important piece. We’re seeing organizations innovate at a really fast pace and make changes that they weren’t able to make before. And I really firmly believe that as you’re rebuilding, maintaining or shifting your culture, understanding how you’re going to communicate as a group is going to be a cornerstone of success and a way to do this is by developing a team Communication playbook. So you, as a leader, know what’s important and how to communicate to your organization as an entirety and also with the individuals on your team. That there’s a way of managing conflict, that there are some shared norms around assuming the best in people, especially if there’s a mixture of people that are virtual and non-virtual. If you’re not in a situation where you can tap somebody on the shoulder, just kind of acknowledge that, Hey, I know we kind of had a little bit of a disagreement, but we can move forward. Sometimes, when you’re in person, you can navigate things a little differently than you can when there’s a bit of physical distance between people. So really assuming the best in people. How it’s going to be fair, how you’re going to help people that are in situations that are a little bit more challenging than others. And also tapping into that empathy and that vulnerability as a leader so that you can share that, that you understand or want to understand what is challenging for me to and to celebrate with your team and not forget about that with the connection to celebrating making People feel the commitment to them. These things are all important things and moving forward in a way that allows people to connect, as opposed to just see each other on a screen. It’s about being more intentional than you were before. What you’re saying how you’re saying it. So assuming the best in each other, helping each other, to celebrate the things that are going well, help buoy people up and listen beyond the words. AW:  Very very well put, Heather.  I feel like we’ve come full circle now. It’s back to some of the leadership qualities and skills that you talked about in the first interview, right? And it’s amplified, based on this incredibly intense experience that we’ve all had. And hopefully we can use that as a catalyst to not only reinforce, but to grow our communication and our leadership skills. Thank you very much Heather! HS: Thank you very much Andrea.  This was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Transcribed by https://otter.ai    THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #53 CRISIS LEADERSHIP & VIRTUAL TEAMS with Heather Stark appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Effective leaders are effective communicators.  Executive coach Heather Stark shares how to improve our communication skills and why leaders need to be good listeners, authentic, proactive, inclusive, intentional and mindful.   REFERENCES & LINKS Heather Stark & Stark Coaching Email – [email protected] LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherestark/ Recommendations Berkeley Greater Good – https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/ Laurie Santos & The Happiness Lab – https://www.happinesslab.fm/ References & Resources HBR (Nancy Duarte) – Good leadership is about communicating why – https://hbr.org/2020/05/good-leadership-is-about-communicating-why HBR – How great leaders rebound – https://hbr.org/2007/01/firing-back-how-great-leaders-rebound-after-career-disasters HBR – 5 Qs that newly virtual leaders should ask – https://hbr.org/2020/05/5-questions-that-newly-virtual-leaders-should-ask-themselves Forbes– What is leadership – https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinkruse/2013/04/09/what-is-leadership/#46a089e35b90 Forbes – 15 ways to ID bad leaders – https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikemyatt/2012/10/18/15-ways-to-identify-bad-leaders/#50800e6515da Talk About Talk podcast on LISTENING – https://talkabouttalk.com/41-listening-with-norman-bacal/ Talk About Talk podcast on ABCDEs of Communication – https://talkabouttalk.com/24-abcdes-of-communication-with-dr-andrea-wojnicki/ Talk About Talk podcast on AUTHENTICITY – https://talkabouttalk.com/33-authenticity/ Talk About Talk podcast on Giving NEGATIVE FEEDBACK (& the poop sandwich) – https://talkabouttalk.com/31-negative-feedback/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Heather, for joining us here today to talk about communication skills for effective leadership. Heather Stark: Great to be here, Andrea, thanks a lot for having me. AW: All right, let’s get right into it. Can you tell us what are some of the most important communication skills for leaders? HS: Well, I think right off the bat, one of the most important things is the ability to listen. And when I say the ability to listen, I mean the ability to really make people feel seen and heard, and to be listening with the intent to care, and learn from what somebody is saying, I also refer to this as  humanizing the communication. So using some empathy, having that ability to listen to the emotion behind the words that people are saying, and then being really clear with what you’re going to say, setting clear goals for the conversation so that people feel like there’s a purpose for what the communication is. Being inclusive. Again, especially now, so that people feel like they’re part of the bigger picture. And being collaborative, which goes back to listening, so that you can really get the people involved that you need and get their feedback and contribution. And planning ahead so that you don’t go into a situation without knowing what you’re going to say. You can be on-the-fly every once in a while. But when you have a big moment, finding those anchors to keep you focussed on the main ideas/ideas you want to communicate and help you through those big moments. And then another very important piece is knowing who you are as a leader, and really being able to use your authentic voice. What I mean by that is, knowing who you are, what is important to you, what you value, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, even what gives you energy and what de-energizes you because all of these things go into enabling you to come across as being more confident.  It also helps you be more aware of the nonverbal cues you may be projecting when interacting with  other people. Having that really strong sense of who you are as a leader is also a very key part of being a great communicator, as a leader. AW: It’s interesting from this list, I’m thinking you know, for example, listening would apply to anyone at any level and of course particularly a leader, but as you went through the list, it dawned on me that some of them are even more important for effective leaders and that authenticity point, your last point in particular, I think people when they’re not quite in leadership positions yet, it’s okay to conform to the group, right? But once you’re the leader, you need to be more authentic to your true identity, you need to create an identity and then communicate it. How do effective leaders do that? HS: You know, I think it’s a real mixture of things. Almost everybody that is at a leadership position has at some point taken some sort of assessment that tells them what color they are according to their personality, or what their strengths are and what their general weaknesses are. I use a strengths assessment that gets to the next level.  It  talks about how people use their energy (and other things), which really helps effective leaders understand which things they’re doing that are going to make them feel great and they’re going to come across as really, really comfortably, and which things they’re going to have to work with a little bit harder at or they’re going to feel a little bit less energized by. It might show up when they’re talking or when they’re when they’re leading a meeting with their teams. For those situations that may be a bit more de-energizing, I get them to have an energy sandwich.  When you’re really aware of what works and what doesn’t work for you, and if you know, for example, that you’re going to be spending all day asking people, how are you doing through this crisis? What’s going on with you? How are you feeling? If you think that at the end of the day, you’re going to feel really tired, well, maybe you can’t do 10 of those one-on-ones with people back to back, maybe you’re going to have to do something that’s going to energize you in between those conversations so that you can show up for those conversations with your full energy. And so when you know what your strengths are, even what your weaknesses are, when you know what’s really important to you, it does shine through and it makes it easier for you to use the voice that shows your confidence. It also makes it easier for you to adapt because you start knowing when you need support.  Being able to say I’m going to bring in this team member to help me in this particular area, because I know that that’s not my area of strength. And that’s not a weakness to understand who you are. That is a real strength. And so when you understand what works for you as a communicator, and what doesn’t work for you, as a communicator, that’s how you’re going to really shine. AW: So you use the term energy sandwich, which I haven’t heard before, but I get it right away. And we have talked in previous episodes about giving feedback with the proverbial poop sandwich, right? And if you start with a strength, and then here’s the opportunity that you need to work on, and then oh, by the way, everybody loves you because of whatever. But the energy sandwich is about kind of doing that with yourself. So figuring out what you love to do, what drives your energy, and then maybe alternating that with things that may expel energy or take too much negative energy out of yourself. And I love that. That’s a great managing your day. HS: It’s a good reminder for people because sometimes at the end of the day, and especially now, people just feel fatigue as the leader. You’ve got to shine somehow. You’ve still got to show people how to move forward. And it can be really exhausting. I don’t talk about energy as kind of an airy fairy thing. I talk about it is something that you use all the time when you’re connecting with people. And that ability to connect as a leader, it can be really tiring, sometimes it’s not the way that you’re comfortable connecting with but as a leader, you’ve got to be adapting to the way other people connect as well. And maybe you have to use a medium of communication that’s not your preferred medium to really connect with somebody. So you’ve got to be able to find a way to feed yourself so that you can go out and then share of yourself with other people. AW: So I love your point about energy. And it actually reminds me about in a recent podcast interview negotiations and emotions expert Tatiana Astray said that if you initiate a negotiation or even an interaction with a signal of enthusiasm than the other person will automatically have a positive response to you. And I feel like you’re basically communicating that you have energy to give to this interaction. So it kind of links nicely there. At the beginning, when I asked you what the most important communication skills are for effective leaders, you started with listening, why is it so hard for us to listen?   HS: You know, I think because it takes real intent to listen. So when I talk about being a strong listener, it’s going beyond downloading and listening for what you already know. That’s the first stage of listening that most of us follow. We download what we already know. We go check. Yeah, I knew that. And we’re sort of agreeing with ourselves. When you go beyond that and you listen for the emotion, when you listen to what the person is actually trying to share with you, it’s another level of listening. When you’re watching for the nonverbal cues, when you’re listening to the tone, the inflection that requires engaged, empathic and what also called generative listening, you’re listening to what that person is actually sharing with you. You get to the level of what they’re trying to impart to you both through what the words are saying and also the language that they’re using, the cues that they’re using all the things that they’re bringing to it.  That’s when you can actually go to the stage of generative listening, where you’re actually helping to think together about the possibilities in a more collaborative way and move forward. AW: I love your description of the stages of listening, right, so not just validating what you already know, but looking for other cues. And then the generative listening, which I can imagine is very critical for effective leadership because one of your main objectives is to hire the right people, and then to motivate them to make the decisions for the organization. And if you have a generative, collaborative relationship with them, where you’re truly listening to their ideas, and then building better ideas together that that sounds ideal. One more thing before we move on. I just wanted to ask you to elaborate a little bit on your second point about humanizing and it sounds like it’s related, right? Like you’re really looking for the customized individual cues? HS: This is a very important part of the nuances that I see as a coach.  It is understanding when somebody says, oftentimes Yeah, how are you? I’m great, or I’m okay. Or I’m fine. And you can hear the lilt at the end. So you’re not fine. So there’s something we’re going to find out during conversation that is leading you to not be completely fine right now. Fine is a reflexive word as opposed to actual information. And so learning to discount some of those things, too, when people just reflexively answer, I’m okay or I’m good. And getting to that next level of what’s actually going on with you. Because really, leadership and communication is a tool to help bring out the best potential in people. So as a coach, that’s my tagline. You know, helping people reach their maximum potential. As a leader, that’s what you can do through communication:  help people be their better self. And so if you’re really listening in a generative way, if you’re listening in an empathic way, you’re listening for those cues that can help you move your team forward and yourself as well. AW: So let’s move on then to what do you think are some of the biggest or most common mistakes that effective leaders make in terms of their communication. HS: There’s also the ability to be agile as a leader. And if you don’t have that adaptability, then that can impact you because being able to shift and to be able to change your communication style to fit the needs of the situation is important, so you’re not stymied. When you come into a situation that’s really challenging that you can go, Okay, this is going to be a difficult situation, I think I need to pivot the way I’m approaching my team.  Or,  I think I need to pivot the way the organization is receiving information when you see a change happening so that you can be thinking ahead. And so it’s important that you have good people around you, that help you and give you feedback on how you’re communicating as well. And it’s equally important that you take that feedback, that openness to learning about yourself is really important. I think that for many leaders, something that happens is you say it, and it’s done. It’s been communicated. I’ve had a situation with founders of organizations where they’ve been in a mode where they’ve been selling the vision of the organization as they raise money and build their team.  Now they’ve got a bigger team in place. And they’re wondering – why things aren’t getting done. I had one found that said I don’t feel like people are really getting what’s supposed to happen. And really, there was a missing step, there was a gap. So there was the vision for where the organization was supposed to go, five years out, and then there was the day to day tactical stuff that needed to happen. And so instead of having that intermediary step, so that there’s a purpose in communication to the people feel that they’re working toward something, there was a sort of gray zone and people weren’t sure you know, how they were connecting the vision to what they’re doing on a day to day. And so really being aware that not everybody’s in your head that you can be great at selling your vision of your organization as an important skill. But you also need to take it into a way that’s translatable for people, so that they have a goal. They have goals. They have annual goals, quarterly goals, weekly goals. They need clear goals so that they know what they’re working on and what their purpose is. And this relates to meetings as well. So that there’s a clear plan so that people come in knowing what the agenda is. So that when you’re talking about things, there is an end goal. Otherwise, people are kind of guessing. And when people start guessing about what you want, as a leader, there’s going to be mistakes. So that’s a disconnect that I found often. AW: I’ve heard of many leaders getting into trouble because they are promoted because of their visionary perspective, but then they sometimes they’re not an effective leader because of the lack of implementation. And I was going to ask you, how do you clarify with your staff to make sure that they know what to do? And I guess the easy answer is to hire the direct reports, the vice presidents and the directors, that make that happen for you. But aside from that, how do you personally ensure clarity to the message? HS: I have a program, something I do with a lot of teams, which is moving from vision to practical reality. And so it’s a matter of realizing that this vision is great, but how are we actually going to make this happen on a day to day basis. And taking the vision and doing strategic planning to set strategic goals for your organization, so that there is clarity, there is purpose. Just like I talked about having anchors when you’re going to be having a very important conversation, a goal is like an anchor. It helps people understand the connections.  Oh, this is connected to reaching a 10% growth in sales this year. This is why we’re talking about this particular situation right now. AW: It occurred to me as you were saying that it’s not just sharing with the team, what you’re doing, but it’s also why and even how,… HS: Yes, yes. If goals are made in a vacuum, and the reason for the goals isn’t shared with the with the employees, they can feel really disconnected. And especially as you trickle down as the leader.  When you’re the leader of the entire large organization, you’re not going to be able to touch every single individual in the organization. That’s an important factor for you to understand. You’re not going to be able to ( if you’re in a larger organization), actually have conversations with each one of the employees but you can set things up so that there’s a great trickle-down effect.  By that I mean when you communicate with your team, your team then communicate with their teams, and so on. So it goes down through the organization. So there’s a clear message throughout the organization. And not feeling connected to the overall message of the organization is a way of things fragmenting so having this consistent message is important. AW: Yeah. And again, I’ve been in organizations where that has happened, and it’s ended up as a catastrophe, basically. So yeah, I think that’s a really important point is making sure that everybody on your team, even if you aren’t interacting with them directly, understands clearly what their purposes and that could be a fatal flaw of an otherwise effective leader who perhaps has set a fantastic vision back to your previous point, but then is not translating that with the how and the why. Are there any other specific communication skills that come to mind in terms of things that limit managers promotability into leadership positions, or that may HS: Yeah, back to the communication-culture connection, I’m going to just touch on that for a moment. In an organization, you’ve got the overall culture of your organization you want, then you have the actual culture of the organization, it’s happening. And then you have these micro cultures within an organization where perhaps the marketing team has their values and their ways that they deal with each other, maybe a little friend groups, and then each individual brings their individual culture, their values, their priorities, their norms, what’s important to them. And so sometimes what happens is that an individual that’s been having trouble moving up within the organization, might not be fitting exactly with the micro culture within which they’re working. So maybe their communication style is a little bit different than everybody else’s. So sometimes a way of helping them is to bring in a coach or to bring in a mentor. And give them very specific feedback about what people are seeing with them. Perhaps doing a 360 with them to provide feedback so that they can understand, what and how they’re saying things that people aren’t getting. AW: Yeah, that’s great. You’ve actually started to answer what I was going to ask as my next question, which is, how do people develop communication skills that they’ve been told they’re lacking? So I can imagine someone going to an annual performance review and hearing that they’ve maybe got great people skills, and definitely great technical skills, but they’re lacking in communication skills. So what should they do? And how do you identify what the actual communication skill is? HS: I think that like many things, feedback can be very vague. Or if you’ve been told that you’re not a good a communicator, go back to the person that gave you that feedback and ask, can you give me some specific examples? If you have specific examples, you’ve got something to work with. So getting that specific feedback, I think would be a very important first step. And then asking for help. Ask for a mentor. Ask for a coach, asking for, a buddy, I think it’s great to have a buddy that you’re working with. Maybe somebody that’s on the same level as you. I had somebody that had somebody that they really respected that was on the same level of them. And they were in a lot of meetings together. He asked for feedback from that person, so that he could learn, and in order to do that there has to be an openness to learn about yourself, too. AW: Okay, that is all great advice for leaders and future leaders about how to optimize their communication skills. Is there anything else you want to add before we move on to the five rapid fire questions? HS: You know, Andrea, I think the most important part is just being really intentional. Any of my clients will tell you, I talk about intention. You’re going through life, really being present, in the moment. And it’s the same thing when you’re communicating with other people. Know yourself, show up as yourself, be present. Listen, ignite that light. So the people really feel like they’re being heard by you. And move forward in a way that you feel like you were connecting with people, engaging with people, smiling, being open. Actually one other thing I didn’t talk about is having that courage. When I talk about being an authentic leader, and using your authentic voice, it actually takes a lot of courage to do that. To share yourself, make yourself a little bit vulnerable. That is something that really helps people connect with you. And that connection is what’s going to really help you when you’re trying to motivate people and trying as a leader to bring out the best in people, to bring out their potential. These are the kind of things that are going to help you build the strongest teams in the strongest organization. AW: Absolutely. So I heard two sort of meta themes in that answer. So one is just engaging and being mindful, which is absolutely critical, right. And then the other thing is the authenticity. The vulnerability. If we can check those off, we’d all be brilliant communicators, wouldn’t we? HS: Yes. AW: Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? HS: Yeah. AW: Ready? Okay, first question. What are your pet peeves? HS: Okay, so this is one that my kids laugh at. It really bugs me when somebody drives really slowly in the fast lane, on the highway, that far left lane. It really drives me nuts. And then also when people don’t listen. And I live in a house full of boys, so… AW: I’m with you on both counts. Okay, next question, what type of learner are you? HS: I would say that I’m a combination, mostly a visual learner. And I think part of that is because I really do connect by looking at the whole person and seeing what they’re doing as well as what they’re saying. But also that listening piece, I think I have those auditory cues that are really important to me as well. So those are the two main ways. AW: Question number three, introvert or extrovert? HS: Yeah. Definitely an extrovert. I like to connect with others. So you know, what I’m doing for a living is the perfect thing. AW: That’s great. I knew you’d have a good answer for that one because you were talking about managing your energy, right? HS: Oh, yeah. AW: So you get energy from meeting with your clients. HS: Absolutely. AW: Okay. Next question. What is your communication preference for personal conversations? HS: So I think for me, it’s basically text and phone. With family, it’s phone all the way. And with close friends, it’s usually a text and picking up the phone as quickly as possible. I like to connect on the phone and hear somebody’s voice. But if I’m in a hurry, I’ll text to sort of get a placeholder for a conversation. I could communicate in any way, my preference is in person conversations AW: Last question, is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you recommend the most lately? HS: Well, other than Talk About Talk. I would say I took this course a long time ago, through the Greater Good science center, and they stand out. It’s through UC Berkeley and they send out this great newsletter and I found that recently, I’ve been trying to read a lot about how to sort of uplift myself, my family, my clients. And I find that they give great tips on not just on how adults can move forward and be grateful and build gratitude and happiness into their lives. But also for Kids, for teenagers for adults. So I really find that that helpful. It’s the science of happiness, and I find that you’re reading about happiness actually makes me happy. And I also took a course through Yale that Dr. Laurie Santos she has a blog and I just find reading that is really helpful. It just gives me ideas and a different way of thinking about things and moving forward in a positive way. So the happiness lab. So there’s a theme for me, I like to read about happiness, because I find it really renewing for me. AW: Well, those both sound like great recommendations, and I’ll be sure to get the details so I can put the links in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add? HS: Just thank you very much for having me. It’s been really great. And as a person that gets energized from these kind of conversations, I’m feeling really energized. It was really great to speak with you. AW: Me too. Thank you so much, Heather. HS: Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON! Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #52 COMMUNICATION SKILLS OF EFFECTIVE LEADERS with executive coach Heather Stark appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Competition, or rivalry over resources, encourages us to strive and excel.  Meet open source strategy expert Dr. Mekki MacAulay, who encourages us to create value by adopting an inclusive, transparent, open source mindset. According to Mekki: “90% of the equation is collaboration, helping, and communicating effectively.” REFERENCES & LINKS Competition & open source expert Dr. Mekki MacAulay Mekki MacAulay & IBM Email – [email protected] LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mekkim/ IBM – IBM closes landmark acquisition of Red Hat for $34 billion Jim Whitehead – past CEO of RedHat, now CEO of IBM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Whitehurst Workplace diversity, neurodiversity: https://www.ibm.com/blogs/jobs/2019/11/19/neurodiversity-at-ibm-when-doing-the-right-thing-brings-success-for-us-all-en-fr/ https://www.ibm.com/blogs/services/2019/02/07/when-neurodiversity-works-bringing-new-perspective-and-talent-to-your-team/ https://www.ibm.com/blogs/jobs/2020/04/13/how-ibm-celebrates-autism-acceptance-month/ Competition References & Articles Bob Young & Red Hat: Red Hat Bob Young (Red Hat founder) Lulu (Bob Young) Anti-trust: Microsoft:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp. Apple:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation#Antitrust Apache Foundation Competition at work: How to Keep Your Cool with Competitive People Free Software Foundation BSD in context of MacOS (or https://www.howtogeek.com/441599/is-macos-unix-and-what-does-that-mean/) ISO Standards Linus Torvalds Linux foundation Modeling High-Quality Knowledge Sharing in cross-functional development teams Open Source Initiative Reddit Ricardian rents Slashdot   Books & Podcasts  ”THE OPEN ORGANIZATION” by Jim Whitehurst (CEO of Red Hat, then IBM) Communicating with NEGATIVE PEOPLE with H.R. expert Tamara Finlay   Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcasts – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/ Shownotes & Transcripts – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#shownotes Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us here today Mekki,  to talk competition and open source strategy. Dr. Mekki MacAulay: My pleasure. AW: Can you tell us first a little bit about your dissertation research and what you studied there? MM: Sure. The traditional perspective is that one can’t make money by giving anything away. You have to control it tightly. That’s kind of the foundation of strategy all the way back to Ricardian rents who said it’s about controlling a specific location and that exclusivity is how you make money. My dissertation was aiming to prove empirically, for the first time, as far as I’m aware, that that’s not true. We’ve theorized that that’s not true for decades. So my dissertation looked specifically at how companies participated in the Mozilla ecosystem. Mozilla is best known for the Firefox web browser, right? And what they potentially got out of giving away all of these contributions even to their competitors. AW: Hmm, that reminds me I know someone who works at an online publishing company, and they give away a remarkable amount of the content that they’re publishing. And yet that is their revenue stream. So I am fascinated to learn more about how this works. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about what you do and your job day to day at IBM? MM: Companies have been doing open source as a business for more than 20 years, and one of the top contributing companies has been IBM. IBM is more than 100 years old and has reinvented itself many, many times. Recently, they took that to the next level, and acquired the first open-by-default company called Red Hat. Red Hat’s business model was all of our software is open source. You can download it at no cost, you can use it but that’s not where the value is. The value is maybe you want support for that. Maybe you want to develop specific features. Maybe you want us to integrate it with your business with customizations. And they demonstrated over a 20 year period that they could be a $2 billion annual revenue company. …. It was around for more than 20 years. It was founded around 1995-96 by a gentleman named Bob Young who’s now the owner of Lulu.com, an open source publishing business. … He also owns the Hamilton Tiger Cats because he’s a football fan. AW: Oh, so obviously there’s some money in this open source strategy if he’s owning. MM: Yes, so he sold Red Hat for an undisclosed amount of money around 2000. Stayed involved for another year or two and then IPO’d at about $16 us a share. When IBM bought it, it was at $190 us a share. So from 2001 to 2018. That’s a considered a very, very good growth from IPO. So investors started believing in it, but they thought it was an anomaly. And then IBM acquired them last year for $34 billion, one of the largest acquisitions in history of any industry that turned heads. Fortune 500 companies suddenly said, Okay, if IBM is buying into this open source thing, that’s okay. It’s real. It’s not just, you know, a fad. What they don’t know is that their engineers in their companies have been using open source strategically for a very, very long time. It’s just the people in the boardrooms had no idea. They didn’t care about how that technical stuff was being done. It was irrelevant to them. So what we’re seeing now is a merging between technology and engineering concerns and business strategy… And that’s where I come in. So IBM is global, and each country does some of their own machinations around how they implement strategy. In the US of course, there’s sort of the main focus. Red Hat is an American company. But up here in Canada, we have a different currency, which affects our ability to bring in consultants from the US. And so what IBM Canada smartly decided, humbly speaking, was to bring me in to assist in building a Canada open source strategy for IBM, Canada, all of whom are IBM clients who are starting to ask about open source and how we can build that up. And they realized that they didn’t have that strategy competency in Canada. So they brought me on to help build that. So that’s my role. I sit between engineering technology and executive management, and I translate between the two. Because I’m a professional computer engineer, I can put on jeans and I can put on nerdy t shirts and I can talk to the engineers or because I have a PhD in business, I can put on a suit and tie and talk with the executives and translate between those two is a fairly new skill set because they are closer than they ever were before, historically, business came up with a need, tossed it over a wall to engineering technology and said make it happen. Now the two are closely integrated in terms of determining priorities, in part because the cycles of development of technology are faster than they ever were, we’re no longer talking about 10 year strategies, we’re talking about three year agile strategies. AW: And that’s where you come in as a huge value add because you’re helping them translate the language of the strategy or the corporate department versus the technology in the engineering and you’re enabling them to communicate with each other communicate effectively and certainly more quickly. MM: Yes, and collaborate. Because historically, they did not see that their separate roles were related to one another at all. We had big silos in companies where they were, you know, these vertical functions that were divorced, they received a high level mandate and then they didn’t talk. And in fact, maybe they even deliberately excluded each other. And so it’s part communication. But they’re competitive, right? AW: Which is kind of the point. MM: Exactly. Part internal integration. The old fighting for funding in the silos of enterprise is just not a thing anymore. Or at least if it’s still a thing that company is going down, not up. AW: Can you share with the listeners some other organizations who are dedicated to and employing open source strategy? MM: Most of the Fortune 500 companies are implementing open source strategy only. Maybe only 70% of them know it, though. AW: Okay. MM: There is an organization called the Linux Foundation, which is a not for profit that coordinates a lot of open source activity in the world. And it does an annual survey of the largest companies to assess their open source strategies. I think it found that 77% (something in that range) are using it and are extracting value from it. The biggest ones are famous names. There’s Google. Google’s the number one open source contributor on the planet. Number two is now IBM since it acquired Red Hat, IBM and Red Hat together. Number three is Microsoft which surprises a lot of people because Microsoft 20 years ago was a very different company. It was the quote “big evil” of closed source software business models. And it’s completely turned that around. Microsoft has several thousand open source projects that it curates. And it pays its employees to develop through open source.  Last year or two years ago, there was the Visual Studio development environment to develop windows programs. This was famously incredibly expensive that people had to do this huge expenditure in order to start developing programs for Windows. Now you start from an open source perspective. So this is where we see a lot of small software companies popping up. You can literally sit in a Starbucks, use their Wi Fi, use all open source tools, and develop software that you then put up on a store to be sold without huge capital investment. That wasn’t true 20 years ago, and.. AW: it’s really interesting. I actually didn’t know that about Microsoft. What about Apple? MM: They raised a lot of questions about where the line is. So people don’t know this. But Apple’s operating system on its Mac books is on its phone is based on an open source core called BSD and people like it in open source communities, because if they don’t want to use the visual interface, they can open a terminal window and use the text-based terminal interface exactly as if they were using a Linux server on all Macs. So they’ve appealed to that techie engineer community while also providing a beautiful front end ( nicely designed in brushed metal), but also the visuals of the device but in the interface as well…  No one’s really ever done that before, it was usually one or the other. But behind the scenes, there’s a lot of questions about standards, and are they playing games, pushing standards towards their own benefit? and Apple is, of course, not the only one doing that. So open source relies on open standards, in the same way that we talk about ISO standards International Standard Organization for a whole range of industries, we have standards for technology, they have to be very open, and they have to be very transparent, or companies will stay away from them because they’re afraid of one company gaining control, right. And Apple historically has manipulated that to their benefit and to the detriment of others. AW: So I probably should have asked this at the very beginning. But can you define open source? MM: Absolutely. AW: I’m sure you can! MM: There is no single definition. Open Source means at least five different things depending on the industry, you’re talking to. Now I created one that I cobbled together from a bunch of different academic sources. It’s actually open source strategy or open strategy if you want to drop the source. And why that matters is because the historical roots of open sources software. And so we think about the source code. That’s where the word comes from. But in the past 15 years, it’s evolved well beyond software. AW: Right. MM: So when we talk about open source strategy, the word source is a bit of a legacy word. And so some people have used it as an open strategy, but open strategy bridges into other areas. So I’ll give you a long answer. The short definition of open source strategy is a strategy that is dependent upon collaboration between individuals and organizations, including competitors to develop a collective good that is useful to all of them in possibly different ways such that no single individual organization can restrict the use of that good by others. So when we think about business strategies, we can use all of the traditional business strategies we think of, except making money based on the ability to restrict is really a key word there. And so the open source definition, which is curated by an organization called the Open Source Initiative, they have a list of what qualifies to use the term open source, they have a trademark on it, and they sort of accredit… AW:  It’s a trademarked term? MM: Yes. And they accredit organizations who say they want to be open source or they have an open source software based on a set of criteria. And I’m not going to list off top my head because they’re long and they’re a little bit quasi illegal. But you can look that up on opensource.org I believe, and read the criteria of what that means. And you’ll see it aligns very well with business principles. And there’s a history there with Another organization called the Free Software Foundation that predates the Open Source Initiative, who was focused a lot more on the social benefits of not restricting software use, and they excluded businesses from participating in that in a bit of anti-establishment type social movement, where they felt that businesses that were large corporate entities were evil by default, and therefore could not possibly engage in open source or free software in an ethical manner. The Open Source Initiative was formed out of what used to be known as Netscape, which no longer exists. That was an early competitor for web browsers back when it was just Netscape and Internet Explorer in the 90s, who realized that participation by large organizations was absolutely essential for legitimacy and growth. And if we didn’t find a way to encourage businesses to be ethical and give them guidelines on how to do that, then they would just be lost and do whatever they wanted. So there’s been a long time division between the Free Software Foundation and the Open Source Initiative. And the Open Source Initiative has largely won in terms of mindshare, in that they have a lot more active participation around them. But back to the definition, the Free Software Foundation has much more restrictive definitions of what they view qualifies as free software. And notably, they use the term free to mean free as in liberty and not free as in no cost. And that is an ongoing source of confusion for the past 25 years. So in French, they say Libra, which is less confusing, right? AW: Interesting. Yeah, there’s a language difference. MM: There’s a language difference there and everybody understands open to some degree, but they assume that means no cost, which is not true. In fact, neither definition insists that it’d be at no cost. Both the Free Software Foundation definition and the Open Source Initiative definition. So you may absolutely sell it. But that’s frequently missed even to the collaborators that input to it – that produced it. The issue is not how you obtain the compiled software. So this gets back to the source code versus the compiled software. And compiling is the process of taking human readable instructions and turning them into machine readable language. And so when we run a program on our computer, it’s machine readable. But if you open it, it’s just a bunch of ones and zeros. It’s not readable to a human. That’s the process of compiling. Historically, Microsoft and other closed source companies were distributed program only in compiled form. You could not see the source code behind it, which also meant you couldn’t audit it. You couldn’t verify it. And if it was doing something secretly that you didn’t know was going on. There was no way for you to find out right. You couldn’t verify you couldn’t verify. That’s why open source is used by the Department of Defense in the US by doing by the US military by all top security organizations because of its auditability. And there’s the frequent misunderstanding that open source is less secure, because you can see it. But in fact, the exact opposite is true. Because the ability to see it allows you to verify that there are no problems. AW: So that is a real mind shift right? from traditional strategy, correct? MM: Yes. AW: So it’s part of what you do to convince all of the stakeholders that you’re working with just to play nicely? MM: Absolutely. And historically, they didn’t think they could get along with one another. So one of my good friends who works at Google, who I won’t name, calls me a quote “market droid,” unquote. He is a hardcore engineer who develops engineering products for Google and we did engineering together in the same program, but I went more towards a business angle Afterwards, he went into deep coding and he viewed for a long time, everything I did as highly irrelevant, that it does not matter. But over the years, I’ve convinced him that good technology gets overridden by bad business decisions. And if we don’t understand the other world, the most beautiful things never get released. And that’s very sad for engineers. So when I talk to engineers, that’s what I talk about. They say, oh, that marketing stuff is relevant? Well, it’s irrelevant to you. But do you want your product to ever go out there for people to use it? Oh, yeah, of course I do. Okay, well, yeah. And unless you convince these executives these marketers that your product has value for the company, it doesn’t matter how good it is, technically, it won’t see the light of day. And then they go oh, yeah, that’s really interesting. Okay, and then they’re more receptive to these theories and ways of thinking (MBA speak as we say), then they are typically before that. AW: Before we move on. I want to ask you about Coopetition, but before we do that, I was wondering, Are there examples that are outside of software and maybe even outside of technology of open source? Or as I should be saying open strategy? MM: Open source  strategy, we use them interchangeably. The list is so large now, we’re actually at the point then we could do the reverse. What areas are not doing it? AW: Can you give the listeners an example of one that is a well-known brand where I wouldn’t have thought of them being an open source strategy? MM: Sure, sure. Every university in the world. So open source strategy actually aligns very well to the traditional academic research model. We don’t even think about not publishing our research and only selling the outputs and academics are rewarded for giving their research away for as many people in the world to see for they don’t sell their paper publications. They get paid based on reputation effects, based on continuous new discoveries. Their reward model is very well aligned with open source. Universities who have tried to commercialize the inventions of their professors failed 98% of the time, and so much so that most universities now don’t claim an intellectual property stake in the inventions of their professors because they realize it’s not worth it. So what we call Open Educational Resources. This is a huge industry and MIT famously pioneered it almost 10 years ago, where they were not only providing the material, they were delivering the courses as a whole online for anybody to participate, right? You get the degree for free. Exactly. And this is exactly what we’re getting at. People thought the business model of universities was people paying to sit in classrooms and receive material that they couldn’t access otherwise. Turns out, that’s not at all true. Nobody stopped enrolling into MIT just because they could take the courses for free with the same material in the same professors online. Nothing changed. So the value wasn’t where they thought it was. Turns out the value is in the piece of paper that says you have a degree from MIT that you don’t get if you participate online unless you’re a registered student through the normal fashion. And so understanding where in your business model is the actual value is an exercise that not enough organizations do. And frequently I sit down with companies, clients of IBM, and as soon as I say open source, they say, I’m going to give away my competitive advantage. If I do that, and I say, okay, what’s your competitive advantage? 98% of the time, they don’t have an answer. And if they do have an answer, it is not an answer that they have actually analyzed. It’s just made up off the top of their head. So my first exercise in open source strategy is conventional business competitive advantage analysis. It’s not specific to open source… AW: Michael Porter five forces? MM: I have a lot to say about Michael Porter and the five forces but that’s a very different topic. The five forces model was coined in the 1980s, so let’s say it’s pre internet. I’m not a big fan of models. To be honest, I apply the component of the model that fits to the specific customer. It’s more customized, there is no single model that applies to all use cases. AW: So before we move on, is there another non-technology focused industry that uses open strategy? MM: sure –  open architecture is a big area. So things like sustainable design, modular design, we are seeing it in materials analysis. So creating new materials with specific properties, companies that are winning the contracts, to build specific things don’t make money off of the proprietary-ness of the materials they use. So they’re highly engaged in open material design. We are seeing it in… AW: there a common thread here, I feel like there must be a way of describing it? MM: Sure.  Make money without restricting. That’s the common thread of open strategy and it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, that’s going to start with a cost savings in that you’re not spending money, curating and maintaining things that don’t matter. And most companies are holding on to a huge amount of stuff that’s costing them money that is not adding value to their organization. So it’s a focusing exercise by letting go. AW: So this is an innate human tendency, though, right? It’s protectionism. MM: It’s corporate hoarding, if you will. AW:  hoarding!  Can you now share with us the definition of Coopetition? MM: Coopetition was the idea that in traditional strategic analysis, your competitors can also be your allies. We used to classify them separately. And we now understand, especially with large companies, that that’s just not discrete. So the idea that you can ally with someone who you’re actively competing against in another area, or even in the same area as competition. Okay, it’s really that simple. When you get to the nuances of it, it’s the idea that we’re never fighting about the same piece of pie. There’s in pretty much every industry enough to go around if we think smartly about it. And the goal with Coopetition is, instead of handing out different pieces of pie between us to increase the size of the pie, and then everybody gets more, and we’re nowhere near the limits of where that’s not practical in any human industry right now. AW: Right. Okay. So I want I want to talk a little bit more about the factors associated with competition, coopetition, and communication. And I keep thinking of collusion and I also keep thinking of OPEC. MM: Collusion is funny because there’s a lot of history in the tech industry with antitrust. And it’s not exactly the same thing. But it’s the idea of monopolies, exerting control to the detriment of end users, consumers AW: Right. MM: And if we back that up to early business theory, early economic theory, people don’t realize that the foundation of economics in the modern world is the notion that corporations as they are structured, enable value creation to the benefit of consumers. Economics are always structured to ensure that the average citizen, the average consumer, gets the lion’s share of the benefit. The fact that we have failed that that to some degree in modern capitalism is not so much a failing of the fundamentals of economics as it is the implementation of those principles. Anti-trust was the idea that companies that grow so big in a single industry that they control the appropriation of value between consumer and corporate interests must be reined-in by the government. Microsoft was famously charged for antitrust violations. In the late 90s, around the same time, Netscape turned into Mozilla and open source started. AW: Interesting. MM: The idea was Microsoft started packaging Internet Explorer, an early web browser with its Microsoft Windows operating system. And the US government said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you have the dominant market position for Windows as the desktop personal computer operating system by adding on this other product in it in quotes, other industry because back then the internet was this new thing that wasn’t integrated in our lives like it is today. We don’t want you to be able to get control of that. And this is very important because at that point in time, Microsoft almost did have control of the actual whole internet. What people don’t know about that is behind the scenes. Most of the servers running internet websites, we’re on a platform called is which was run by Microsoft. And there was no alternative. So Microsoft very nearly cornered the internet as a whole running all of the backend servers and the front end access Internet Explorer. This antitrust movement by the US government rein that in and two big things happened. Netscape turned into Mozilla, which became an open source web browser, which very rapidly grew in market share for the front end. And the Apache organization created the Apache web server, which is the open source web server equivalent of is that now today runs 93% of the internet, back end. And so if you look at websites today, Microsoft does not run most websites on the back end, Apache does. And it’s managed by a not for profit organization called the Apache foundation. All of that happened exactly at the time that Microsoft got charged with anti-trust. Many years later, Apple would do the exact same thing even more brazenly than Microsoft did – and did not suffer antitrust charges, because technology had evolved to a point that the internet was so integrated in our lives, that adding a web browser into an operating system was not considered gaining a lot of control. And so Apple actually tested those limits quite a lot with the US government to see just how much it can integrate – with its iTunes platform in particular. And that’s where I was saying earlier, Apple was sort of a questionable open source citizen in that it would test the limits of what it could close down and put inside its walled garden that no one else could touch, while also using open source products. So there’s a way AW: it’s like they’re they’re integrating open source and closed source. Can I say a closed source? MM: You could say closed source, yes. They were integrating them and some open source licenses, which are permissions to use the software allow that integration, others explicitly don’t where once you put something Open Source with something closed source, the closer his product becomes open source by default. And so companies are very careful with that to make sure that they’re not accidentally releasing stuff they don’t want to under the agreements. So how does this relate to collusion? Well, the idea of collusion is that even if a single company doesn’t control the distribution of power for a given industry, if companies are not forced to compete to drive down each other’s benefits, then consumers won’t benefit. Open Source actually is one of the favorite things of collusion regulators, because it’s the opposite of control. Collusion still implies that the companies that are colluding control what’s going on to the detriment of the consumer. But open source flips that paradigm. If you are in quotes, “colluding in open source,” you’re colluding in a way that’s open to everybody, including people, not active explicitly part of a collusion agreement. AW: So is it like an oxymoron? “Open Source collusion”? MM: It’s almost more laughable. It’s more absurd. It’s not quite an oxymoron. It’s that the paradigms of collusion don’t even fit in here. Who are you excluding in the collusion if everything is open, right? So the idea was then the companies that colluded would have an advantage over the new companies that want to join the industry who could never compete with that collusion? Well, if you’re developing something that anybody can use, anybody can enter that industry. And so it’s more of a shift of what is valuable, then it is a shift of power. Open source is the opposite of power. It’s saying we are all equal to some degree (and we can get into governance debates about who wields power behind the scenes,) but the thing that we’re cooperating on nobody has exclusivity power over it. So regulators love it. They want companies to be involved in this – to reduce fears of collusion. AW: Yeah. And the regulators are the government typically. And the government’s know that open source leads to government’s value. MM: And that’s what they’re trying to drive in the economy anyway. Exactly. And they see a value beyond just corporate revenues. They see social value. They see economic value. Governments are some of the biggest adopters in open source.  In Canada, but also in Europe and South America and us we see it everywhere. AW: So I can imagine Dr. Mekki MacAulay coming into an organization like IBM and its competitors and giving this lecture and saying we can all benefit we can drive value within our organizations and outside of our organizations using open source strategy. I’d really like to dig in now to how do we communicate that and how do we represent that in our words and our actions. One of the models that I read about when I was preparing for this interview highlighted the various factors or constructs that are necessary for competition and I noticed Two of those factors were interpersonal relationships and communication. MM: So importantly, a famous personality in open source is Linus Torvalds, who’s best known for the inventor of the Linux operating system, which now runs just about every fortune 500 company in the world. He is a stereotypical engineer who is very focused on the technology and not focused on relationship building. He’s known to be very impatient with quote, stupidity, unquote. And this was sustainable in the early days of open source when it was largely a community of engineers. They didn’t see the relevance of social graces of communication. (But now as we have more and more participants worldwide, who are diverse, in particular, a better gender balance, we have more women participating in open source). It was creating a toxic atmosphere that needs to be addressed. And it is impacting companies now, because companies have a stake in the success of these open source communities and If they do not engage in the communications aspect in the community development, growth, social aspect, the technologies do not develop because of the same blockages that we have when teams don’t get along and workplaces. AW: So he said, “if they don’t engage in the communications aspect…” What would the gold star of engaging in communications aspect look like? MM: That’s a really good question. Recognizing that technology is 10% of the equation, and 90% of the equation is collaboration, helping, so stating that and demonstrating stating that demonstrating and you need to integrate, you know, the soft skill practitioners in your open source strategy. If you don’t, you run the risk of becoming irrelevant by virtue of focusing exclusively on the technology, right? AW: So this is not where I thought this conversation was gonna go – towards inclusivity – but it actually makes sense and what I’m hearing between the lines here, I guess, is that making open source part of your corporate culture is absolutely necessary for open source to actually succeed. MM: Absolutely. And you have a cheat sheet. Jim Whitehurst, the CEO of Red Hat that IBM recently bought, the former largest commercial open source company in the world, wrote a book called The Open Organization, around 2015. And at IBM, it’s been handed out to managers and directors as an instruction manual. So if you want to learn how to do this, it describes at the organization level, all the things you need to do to align with the open source movement, in terms of communication in terms of hiring in terms of marketing, and one of my colleagues was reading it and said, Hmm, so the summary of this book in short form is don’t be a dick to your employees. And I’m like, AW: Really? MM: Yes. So your quote unquote competition strategy is to be a good manager. A good director. To be ethical, and that will improve your business. The old standard of cutthroat business of 1950s management where you have to squeeze a stone to get blood out of it. That doesn’t work and we know it doesn’t work. AW: Okay, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions. The first question is, what are your pet peeves? MM: Animal cruelty, I can’t stand of course. But an unexpected one amongst people who love animals. There’s this obsession to share animal cruelty pictures to get people upset about this on Facebook AW: It’s emotional manipulation. MM: I can’t stand it. We’re all already upset about animal cruelty. Putting gore on my Facebook feed doesn’t make me want to do more. It makes me want to unfollow you.  Don’t do it. It’s just it’s it does not help. Huge pet peeve. AW: I thought you were gonna say people that don’t cooperate. MM: Oh, well I could have. That just came to mind. AW: Okay, second question what type of learner are you – visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? MM: I’m very kinesthetic. More recently, as I become more verbal, I’ve moved to a bit more reading, learning. I hate learning by videos and being taught. That really drives me crazy. Everything now is videos, even online training courses for all this kind of stuff. Yeah, sit and watch a video… I would rather a text environment where I can move at my own pace. AW:  What about listening to a podcast? MM: Same thing, I would actually prefer to read a transcript of a podcast on the podcast itself. But that’s a personal thing because of the speed at which I absorb information and the speed at which it’s communicated is typically too slow for me. AW:  Okay, well, I’m going to do a plug now. Every single one of my podcast episodes has shownotes with the highlights and then the full transcript of the interview. MM: I love it. That’s perfect for people like me, and for people with disabilities. I have colleagues who love that. AW:   so I thought when I was trying to decide whether or not to do that, that was one of the things. MM: So valuable. Yeah. AW:   Question number three, introvert or extrovert? MM: I am a natural introvert fake extrovert. So part of my translating from engineering to business was overriding some of my natural slightly autistic tendencies and faking extraversion because it makes people more comfortable, but it’s really draining. And so I eventually have to go and hide by myself to recharge because I’m naturally an introvert. AW:   I think you’re also very self aware. Question number four, communication preference for personal conversations? MM: I prefer text, I find that it gives me time to communicate. So particularly asynchronous, where I can respond when I’m in the right state of mind. But that doesn’t align very well with most people. So I naturally adapt to what’s best for most people just because communication is a two way street. AW:   That is a really interesting answer. I have to tell you, the most common answer that I get to that question is the exact opposite. Most people say I prefer face to face but I understand we’re moving quickly. We are communicating asynchronously, as you said, and we have all these rules about body language … MM:  for those further along on the Autism spectrum, face to face is a lot harder. So I learn rules about body language and such by script, by memorization. By practice, they don’t come to me naturally. And so what you and I are interacting with is two decades of practice. Had we met 20 years ago, I looked a lot like the stereotypical engineer who did not convey body language very well, and so was frequently misunderstood. There’s so much communication through body language that we don’t understand. AW:   Well, that’s kind of what Talk About Talk is all about –  communication skills across whatever dimension it is… MM: I want every single open source engineer to take a course on that AW:   question number five podcasts or blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? MM: None of them. I believe that the best information source is curated aggregation. What does that mean? You will never be fully satisfied by a single source based on the bias of that source. Instead decide what you’re interested in and use some form of tool that will curate around that topic for you, then you get a diversity of opinions for that topic, you have a broader view, it avoids the echo chamber effect. And it keeps you a lot more current, you’re not waiting for an update from other people. So examples that I use for technical stuff, Slashdot, which is one of the oldest technical news sources about 20 years old, which an internet time is forever. And one that I use for more social is Reddit. Reddit is the number three most visited website on the internet. And its brand is the front page of the internet. But what people don’t know is you can very tightly curate what shows up on your front page from a range of interests. AW:   So I am a big proponent of media hygiene, which is part of what you’re describing there. But I had never thought of it explicitly in the context of inclusivity. And what you’re talking about is inclusive media habits. MM: Absolutely. And you can do it across any demographic as well. So I explicitly follow on Twitter, some black queer journalists, because they tend to engage in topics that just would not occur to me. I explicitly follow some Native Americans and indigenous community tweeters in Canada on Reddit. I explicitly join certain communities for diversity of tech representation. That’s another thing is because that’s the only way you’re going to be exposed to those voices. And the only thing worse than not having a diverse view is listening to one source and assuming that’s the whole of the diversity representation. And so you need to get multiple voices even around what we think of as a single out of out group single out group. AW:   Exactly. Well said, we could keep talking for hours . MM: Hours and hours. AW:   Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your expertise with us. MM: I love what you’re doing here and it’s a privilege to be a part of it. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!       Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]                   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #51 COMPETITION with open source strategy expert Mekki MacAulay appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Managing our emotional expressions is critical to effective communication. Emotions researcher Tatiana Astray helps us optimize our relationships and negotiation outcomes by taking responsibility for our emotional expressions. Learn about the difference between feelings and emotions, why we should express enthusiasm, how to manage negative emotions, and all about the positivity ratio. REFERENCES & LINKS Tatiana Astray Tatiana Astray – emotions & negotiation expert LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tatiana-astray-ba357827/ Paper on emotions in negotiations – https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334649193_Introducing_the_Positivity_Ratio_The_Role_of_Collective_Emotional_Expressions_in_Negotiator’s_Willingness_to_Negotiate_AgainRG Recommendations – Relationship Alive by Neil Sattin HBR Women at Work ManTalks podcast with Connor Beaton Francesca Maximé Wise Girl Books & Resources “Emotions Revealed: Recognizing faces and feelings to improve communication and emotional life” Paul Ekman – https://amzn.to/3fhtchV “What Makes Love Last?: How to build trust and avoid betrayal” Gottman, J., & Silver, N. – https://amzn.to/3b44ZZ8 “Emotional Intelligence: why it can matter more than I.Q.” Daniel Goleman – https://amzn.to/2SzrG0Z Berkeley Emotional Intelligence quiz – https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/quizzes/ei_quiz “Atlas of Emotions” interactive tool – http://atlasofemotions.org/ Posture & Breathing podcast episode – https://talkabouttalk.com/43-posture-breathing-with-dr-nadine-kelly-yogimd/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcasts – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/ Shownotes & Transcripts – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#shownotes Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Tatiana, for joining us here today to talk about emotions. Tatiana Astray: Well, it’s a pleasure to be here. I’m really excited. AW: I thought the best place to start would be with definitions. Can you share with me and the listeners – What is the definition of an emotion? TA: I actually love to start a class asking people to reflect on what they think emotions mean. Most of the time, people conflate feelings with emotions, but they’re actually very specific things. So emotions are a physiological reaction. It is an action tendency, and it has a subjective experience. It’s usually high intensity, short in duration. And it’s always directed towards an object or person or an event. Now, this is important because what this means is it’s prepping the body for something and there is no such thing as you’re just having emotions out of nowhere. They’re always related to something. So anytime you’re feeling something, but you don’t know what ,that’s usually a good sign to pause and figure out like, what is triggering them? That’s a sign for you. AW: Yeah, the word that came to mind when you were describing that was trigger, right? TA: Yes. triggered this emotion or you get triggered. Absolutely. That is an emotion. Versus some people have – oh, they’re just a feeling. They’re subjective experiences. But this definition is important because it shows us that it’s a body component, it’s trying to prepare your body for a specific action. So for example, anger is about boundaries. And so if you allow yourself to express anger, that’s you learning to put up a wall where you need to. AW:  Right. TA:  If you suppress the anger in that moment, you basically violate your boundary and you allow people to continue doing the things that you don’t want. And I will say, two other important distinctions with emotions is that there’s intrapersonal effects (so how the way I feel impacts what I’m doing, the way I’m acting) and interpersonal effects, which is the way that my emotions are expressed, the way it impacts us specifically. And at that level, emotions become this like body dance where they help people to coordinate behavior, and they help to maintain and deepen relationships, and that that’s really my area of expertise. AW: So would you say that the intrapersonal feeling is still part of the emotion just before it gets expressed? TA: Absolutely. AW: Okay. TA: Absolutely. So if you think about it in stages, when you’re feeling an emotion that’s giving you a little bit of information of what’s happening inside of you, it’s telling you a piece of information about the person in front of you. And then the way you express it, you know, you can either express it in a way that kind of helps the relationship or hinders the relationship. And that’s really where like, when people say emotional intelligence, that’s really what they’re talking about your ability to effectively express what you’re feeling in a way that benefits the relationship in the situation. TA: AW: I love that. I think you’re going to get quoted on that one. Because I’m a visual learner. I’m imagining, as you’re describing this and defining this, that there’s almost like a decision tree or at least a flowchart where there is, as you said, some sort of trigger. It could be a person or a thing or an event, whatever it is, right? And then an interpretation by the person, is there something like that, that you can share that has stages? TA: First of all, our attention picks things up. So depending on how we’re feeling, what we’re focused on, it’s to pick up specific cues. Then you know, someone will say something. And if you’re in a good mood, you actually interpreted it in a slightly more positive way, then you give it a cognitive meaning. The meaning is, oh, you care about me, you’re having a good time… great. And then there’s your response, which might be the smile, right? Now, let’s say you’re in a bad mood, then I see your smile. I’m not sure what that means. My cognitive meaning might be like, Oh, she’s faking it. She’s not really being genuine. And then my response might be that suppression in that like suspicion. So it’s a multi-stage process. It’s super complex, because it’s related to what you’re feeling, what you’re expressing, which we never actually know. In my research, I have found that the correlation between what you think you’re expressing what you’re actually expressing, not significant, zero correlation. AW: That’s scary. TA: But the way I code you expressing back to me is really what’s going to define how I respond to you. When you break these things down. And when you understand what you should be expressing. It allows you to actually signal the things, that you need to make sure that you understand the other person and to give the actual body cues that deepen relationships and bring them together. AW: And some of that could be implicit, probably more likely implicit, but it could also be explicit, right? TA: Yeah, it’s a very complicated dance of both. It’s a very complicated dance of both, is what I’m going to say. AW: Yeah, you were talking about how the part that is statistically valid is when you’re interpreting what the other person is… TA: Absolutely, absolutely. So for example, in the data, but it’s basically the way I code your behavior is what predicts what I’m taking out of the situation and whether or not I’m enjoying it, whether or not I’m going to give you something in a negotiation. Do I want to continue working with you? So if you think about the implication of that, it’s people are responding to the way you’re acting (the way you are physically acting) not the way you think you’re acting, AW: right. So certainly not what you’re thinking, TA: Never what you’re thinking! It’s what you’re expressing. Absolutely. And so like when that light bulb goes off, then you realize like you have to become very aware of what you’re doing because your intentions mean diddly squat in your interactions with people. It’s what you’re actually expressing that matters. AW: Can you tell us a little bit about your dissertation research and maybe some other research papers that you’re working on? TA: Sure. So my entire research agenda, I would summarize in one sentence, which is: “ It pays to be pro social.” AW:  to be pro social? TA: Yes. So I want to create the research that shows that being a nice, kind, cooperative, trustworthy person gets you more in your work interaction. So that the core of everything I want to do. AW: is that based on a hypothesis, or based on research that you’ve done? TA: So it’s actually based on a few things. I’ve read things, I’ve seen my basic ideas to combat this idea that we have to be selfish to win in the corporate ladder. I don’t think that’s very helpful, because selfish people end up being taken down by others. People don’t trust them. They don’t want to work with them. And so there’s this discrepancy between what we’re told works in society and what actually does. We’re social creatures. And so if you know how to play with others, you’re going to succeed in the workplace. My dissertation specifically looks at what is an effective, productive working relationship, and how that impacts negotiation behaviors and negotiation outcomes to really correlate that at the individual and interpersonal level. And then some other research, I have looked at the role of collective emotional expressions and how that impacts negotiation behaviors, negotiation outcomes, and again, that desire to work together again. AW: So let’s get into that with negotiations. Is your research showing that negative emotions are bad or have a bad outcome in negotiations? TA: So in any interaction, you’re going to have a multitude of emotional expressions. You’re going to have anger, happiness, a little bit of validation enthusiasm. You might have a bit of sadness, and it’s not about expressing any one specific quote unquote, negative emotion. It’s about the overall emotional tone of the interaction,. AW: okay TA: How it’s going back and forth, and can you limit particularly negative emotional expressions. So in a negotiation context, my research shows that maybe you’re engaging in threats? Are you whining? Are you actually showing fear? AW: Have you mapped some of these behaviors to –it wouldn’t be to what people think they’re expressing is– to what people are interpreting? TA: Absolutely. So I get people to do negotiation simulations with people they don’t know. I asked them to tell me the cues of what is happening in the interaction, I don’t tell them the emotional label, because a lot of the times people don’t really know what anger or contempt looks like, I just give them the cues. And then I also capture a bunch of outcome variables, like were you satisfied with the interaction? Do you want to have a relationship with the person? What were your deal outcomes? And then I basically map the emotional expressions at the dyadic level to what actually happened in that dyad, and does that dyad want to continue working together? And I can tell you some preliminary findings, emotional expressions are highly predictive of people’s desire to work together. AW: Well, that’s a good thing, right? TA: Yeah, it is. And it’s very exciting because I got to show from a research perspective, that one: You don’t need to hide your emotional expressions. That actually hinder people’s desire to work with you. And I show people the actual specific cues to make people want to work with you again. AW: Ah. TA: So what do you think the number one emotional expression is to make people want to work with you again? AW: Number one? Smile? TA: enthusiasm. AW: Oh, right. Oh, sorry. I thought you meant the behavior. TA: Yeah, but actually, so a smile is part of that. But enthusiasm is a little bit more than just a smile. It’s literally saying, I am so excited to be here and work with you. And to really let yourself express that emotion can make such a huge difference for people. AW: I have to say, I’m so happy to hear that because people have described me as very enthusiastic. TA: You know what’s funny, since learning this, I’ve learned to be more enthusiastic, especially when I meet people and use that word in my email. So one of the first things I’ll do is I’m so excited to hear from you. AW: That’s a great hack for the listeners. TA: Yes. AW: So if you want someone to interpret it, write it. TA: Exactly. Exactly. So one of the things through email that I found is that because it’s so devoid of emotional information, people don’t really know where they stand with you. But the problem is in the absence of information, because we have a negativity bias, people aren’t going to interpret that as you’re not being interested. So it’s exceptionally important to put those really few emotional positive cues. Just to make a person feel safe in the interaction to know that like, yeah, you are engaged, and you do you want to interact with this person. AW: Okay, so there’s so many things there to unpack. And I just wrote like four things down. TA: Wonderful. AW: So we have a negativity bias. TA: Yes. AW: And would you say, or is there research that shows that maybe that’s why enthusiasm is so important, because it’s conquering that negativity bias? TA: So part of it comes from an evolutionary standpoint. So when you meet someone new, you have no idea if they’re a friend or foe. AW: So you’re, I get it, so you have your defenses up. TA: Exactly. Exactly right. Because it’s much better to be safe than sorry, because it’s better to survive than die. It’s evolutionarily built in all of us. Now, there are some people that are naturally just predisposed to be a little bit more trusting, a little bit more expressive. And there are a lot of people that are kind of resistant, I’m going to call them matchers. So they kind of wait to see the first emotional key from someone. Now, depending on what kind of person you are, if you don’t realize that people are being a little hesitant, people are going to read that hesitation as you’re not a trustworthy person. So that first cue just to be enthusiastic basically shows like, Hi, I’m here, I’m a friend, and I’m excited to be with you. I promise you, once you start kind of using this key, you’re going to realize that people open up a lot quicker. AW: So it’s almost like there’s nothing to lose by communicating enthusiasm. And furthermore, it accelerates the relationship or at least your understanding of the other person. TA: Absolutely. AW: Okay. So then the other thing I wanted to ask you, what do you think about emojis? TA: I think they’re great in the sense that they can add a little bit of a friendly tone. I don’t necessarily think they’re professional. So with your work colleagues, if you have a more personal relationship, sure. If you do not know the person, I don’t advise that. I’ve read research to suggest it. It feels unprofessional. AW: Yeah, I think it depends on the age to it. I’ve read a little bit of research on that too. And there’s different cohorts or generations of people that will interpret different punctuation. Never mind, emojis. Yeah, my rule is I wouldn’t be putting emojis in emails where, you know, I’m, for example, giving a proposal to do a training program at a company. But if it’s a little bit of a closer relationship, especially if I’m concerned that something might be misinterpreted. Yeah, I would put the emoji in. TA: Yeah, I agree. And another good place to put it is when someone sends it to you. You need to match to let them know that it’s safe in this relationship to express that so anytime someone sends me a smiley face all send them a nice message back with that smiley face as well, just to say we are on the same page and like you don’t have to worry to be misinterpreted. AW: So mirroring the style of communication. TA: Yes, that’s very important. There’s lots of research to suggest that mirroring is one way that we feel safe in relationships. AW: So you started to answer this question previously, but I just want to ask you specifically: can expressing emotions, even the negative ones, signal that we feel open and close with someone? TA: Yes. Okay. Three other social functions of emotional expressions at the interpersonal level is to know intentions. It’s to evoke complimentary behaviors and to reinforce behaviors, okay? AW: Okay. TA: In a relationship, these things are very important. Now, when we think about anger, anger is basically saying, look, I have a boundary, it’s quote unquote, a negative emotion. But it actually serves a very important relationship role because you’re teaching someone your limits, and you’re teaching them to treat you nicely. If you express that in a direct, assertive way, and the person responds, you actually strengthen the relationship because now they know you better now you’ve reinforced that behavior, even sadness, for example, we have sadness to elicit someone to take care of us. Expressing sadness is great, especially if it’s met by caretaking. So these negative emotions are great in relationships, they strengthen our bonds. But there’s a whole class of other emotional expressions such as threats or engaging in criticism or defensiveness or stonewalling and all of those are very detrimental. AW: So thinking of a Negotiations context, what are the emotions that are critical, either positive or negative in terms of their effect on negotiation outcomes? TA: So actually, let me go back to this idea of sadness. One-way sadness is bad. Two Way sadness is great. Basically saying, I’m so sorry, I can’t make this deal. But I want to work with you preserves that negotiation. If it’s matched back. So it’s both people saying, I’m sorry, this time doesn’t work. Again, it’s that dance. It’s not a one way expression. It is the dance at the interpersonal level. Threats are very bad in negotiation. So anytime you say something like, if you do this, I’m walking away. AW:  If- then statements, right? TA: Exactly. If-then is very bad, anytime you are defensive in a negotiation. So if someone tells you what their needs are, and you basically say, Yeah, well, I have these other needs, and you don’t speak to their concern… Very bad. And again, whining and fear. AW: So what is the emotion that whining is communicating? TA: Think it’s almost like trying to elicit manipulation from someone. AW: Ah, right. TA: Because it’s like, why don’t you give me something? AW: Manipulation. You’re right. It is it’s almost like inducing guilt in someone. TA: Like why don’t you give me more? This is so unfair. It’s not a way to have an assertive conversation – a proper one with clear channels. AW: Yeah. So to all the listeners out there who tell their kids not to whine, you can tell them that there’s research that demonstrate is not effective in negotiations. TA: Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. But let me also speak to the positive emotions, because negative emotions will decrease someone’s desire to work with you and give you concessions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to make people want to work with you again. For that we need positive emotions. So what does that look like? Again, number one enthusiasm, which is like why I’m preaching it now. Enthusiasm is very important. Another one that’s very important is validation. So basically showing that you understand someone’s perspective, even if you don’t agree with it. AW: Right. TA: And I think that makes people feel better because it doesn’t mean you have to completely give in to a person’s demand, but it has to be something like, Hey I understand why you want that position. I would want that to. Unfortunately these are my limits. AW: Yeah, I feel like I’ve heard and read that consistently with a lot of the EQ stuff, right? It’s demonstrating you’ve heard something, you understand it, and you’re validating it, but you’re not saying you agree with it. TA: Absolutely. Another very important one is expressing interest. So what that means is allowing your body to lean in nod, go where I am right now. And also asking more questions and paraphrasing what the person said. So all of that basically says that you are listening to the person and you’re interested in finding out more. AW: Makes sense, TA: Yeah, it sounds so obvious, but for some reason, in our culture, we don’t talk about that. And the last tip, I want to kind of give I’m going to leave you with this idea of the positivity ratio. So whenever you’re interacting with someone, you want to always check for the overall tone. It’s fine to express a bit of sadness and anger, that that can’t be the only emotion you’re expressing, you know. So in my research, what it looks like is that it’s best to express about three positive emotions to one negative in a negotiation context or minimize the negative as much as you can. That’s a great tool just to like sit there and say, Okay, what is the general tone? Did I acknowledge that? You know, did this person feel validated? Did I show them I’m interested? And if so then yeah, then express a bit of sadness and express a bit of anger. Like, that’s completely fine. AW: So keep it real, but keep it positive. TA: Yes, that’s a really great quote, keep it real and keep it positive. I’m going to be using that. AW: We’re going to be quoting each other. I love it. So can you share an example maybe that you’ve used to illustrate this when you’re doing corporate training? Or maybe even in one of your academic papers where this might be relevant to a personal context? TA: Okay, wonderful. One of the ways I actually start this is, did you know we could predict divorce with a 94% accuracy? AW: oopfh. TA: Basically, there’s this great researcher called John Gottman. And back in the 70s. He used to put couples in this hotel room and videotape them having everyday discussions and conflict discussions. And what he found is by coding the emotional effects of these interactions, he could predict short term and long term divorce with 94% accuracy. So let me tell you the tip to know whether or not you should be scared. Now there’s a curvilinear relationship and it’s meant in a specific point. So the relationships that stay together have five positive to one negative emotional expression. AW: Okay, where you were talking about three to one, he said, He’s saying five. TA: Five to one in personal relationships with the absence of criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. So those are very particular negative ones that will result in a divorce. Now too much positive and no negative predicts long term divorce because you’re not discussing the things that matter. AW: Right. TA: And too much negative emotions actually predicts early divorce because, of course, who wants to be in an interaction that’s unpleasant?  What’s actually very interesting is this concept of the positivity ratio has also been used to look at exec teams and how they perform during strategic planning. So what they did was they got execs to talk about a strategic annual plan and they divided the teams based on their performance. So how profitable they were, customer satisfaction, and 360 degree performance. And they coded what was said based on praise to criticism. And so what’s cool again, we find the highest performing teams had a 5.6 positive to one negative verbal expression. And the lowest performing teams had almost like a one to one ratio. So again, consistently, what the research is starting to say is that you have to express positive emotions. And it has to be in this context where the negative ones have to be present, but the positive ones have to outweigh it. AW: Yeah, that’s that’s a great tip. I guess it’s a great goal. TA: It is a great goal. And what’s wonderful is if you know this number, honestly, anytime you’re on the phone with someone, have a little tally card and just literally count up how many positive emotions have you expressed. AW:  Do you do that? TA: I train my students to do it. I haven’t personally done it only because I’ve gotten used to being very positive. AW: You’re telling the brain anyway… TA:  I am. I always start off every interaction – I have to throw in those positive emotions just so it can buffer everything else. AW: Well, that’s another tip, start out with the enthusiasm, but then add a few more to buffer the positive interpretation. TA: Because the thing is, you know, in relationships, people are willing to have those difficult discussions. They’re willing to hear you out. They’re willing to hold a container for you being frustrated and positive, if they know you care about them. AW: Mm hmm. TA: Those enthusiastic cues upfront basically say, Hey, I’m here and I want to interact with you and let’s engage. Let’s problem solve. Let’s get creative. AW: Right. So I want to ask you this question, which is: when I’m feeling a negative emotion, so interpersonally I am feeling Yes, angry or I’m feeling rage, or I’m feeling jealousy or in a negotiation context. Maybe I’m feeling threatened, right? And I want to not communicate that emotion. Do you have any tips for how to regulate that emotion? TA: Okay, one of the things I want to say is you should never suppress your emotions, which means if you feel bad, you’re going to try ignoring that you feel bad and push it down, try to tell yourself I don’t feel bad, I don’t feel bad. That’s not going to help, actually what’s going to happen is your blood pressure’s going to go up, your heart rates going to go up. It’s exceptionally unhealthy from a physiological perspective, eventually it’s bad for subjective well-being. There are huge studies to say that suppressing emotions is very bad. From a physiological perspective… AW: what we hear, in our culture is: don’t keep it all bottled up. Yes, but I’m talking about tactically in a specific situation where, you know, it’s an intense negotiation, let’s just say for the sake of illustration, and I can’t let the person know that I feel so threatened. TA: And I would say there are certain situations where you wouldn’t want that to happen, especially when someone has more power over you. AW: Exactly. TA: Research shows, if you express anger, even if you justly should feel angry, that person will hold it against you and punish you in some way later. So you don’t want to do that. You feel bad. This is a reality. This is a strong physiological reaction. It’s calling your body to do something, but you can’t express it in that moment. What do you do? You go to the bathroom. This is actually what I suggest or ask to take a formal break or say you need a bit of a break and you’ll come back to it in the morning. You have to give your body time to wash that out. Okay? So generally the hormones related to anger have a half-life that rounds out to about 13 minutes. AW: I thought you were going to say a lot longer than that. TA:  No, no, it’s a lot shorter. So for example, if you’re ever in a business situation or personal situation, and it’s way too intense, take a 20 minute break and come back to the conversation. If you’re managing someone, let’s say a performance review and they’re getting excessively frazzled. Say you have to take a call and give them 20 minutes and come back to it. Some of the other things you can do is engage in breathing techniques, because that activates your parasympathetic nerve that calms your body down and it tells you that you’re in a safe space. So there’s a few breathing techniques that I always recommend. The first is box breathing, which is so four seconds in, you hold for four seconds, you exhale for four seconds, and you hold it for four seconds and you repeat that for about a few minutes. That’s something that the Navy SEALs do in their own training. You can also engage in deep belly breathing, which is basically putting your arm on your stomach and your chest and making sure you’re breathing from your abdomen and not your chest. AW: Right. So it’s shallow breathing through your chest, right and deep breathing through your belly. TA: Exactly. So as you’re giving your body those cues, that’s what allows you to kind of bring yourself down. Another quick thing I will say, which is really fun, from an evolutionary perspective. When you are angry, you do not think rationally. There’s polyvagal theory, when a person stressed and angry, there’s something in the ears that modulate to low tone frequencies, because what they’re looking for is predators. Literally, when you’re very upset, you can’t hear what the person in front of you is saying because your body is in a state of stress, which I think is phenomenal. AW: It also phenomenal to know. TA: It’s phenomenal to know. But it’s amazing because it basically means the moment you’re in that space, you’re not having a rational conversation, so you have to take yourself out. Another thing I will say is if you are triggered, and it doesn’t seem to equate to the external stimulus effect example if someone says something and you take it way more personally than you should, which happens even in a negotiation, because you might think like, oh, that person is trying to take advantage of me or you get really angry about something, there is a good chance that you have some unresolved trauma that you need to work through. AW: The reason do you mean something unrelated, completely unrelated, right? TA: Actually, in my teaching, I see that a lot, interestingly enough, right? So people come in, and they’re very upset about a situation or they feel like they can’t trust, or someone took advantage of them. But if you break down what’s happening, it’s unresolved trauma, and that moment is going to keep triggering them until they sit down, they process it and they figure out what’s happening. AW: Okay, I keep thinking of in psychology, just attribution theory into what are we attributing people’s behavior? And it could we can now just kind of take that idea and say to what am I attributing my feelings? And if it’s out of proportion, there’s got to be something else going on? TA: Yeah, and a lot of the time we take for granted what we’re observing. So we’re making a lot of attributions. And I know one attribution bias is that we understand the context and complexity of our lives. So of course, we would never do anything bad, but to other people, we see them have one bad day and we go, that’s a bad person, right? They’re short tempered. They’re impatient. But no, maybe they missed lunch. Maybe they just had a fight with their spouse. Right? So understanding that difference means giving people a break, not taking things so personally. And if you cannot do that, if you get so triggered when someone says something. AW: it means it’s you. It’s not them, right? TA: It’s you. So you have to learn to navigate your internal world so you can show up in relationships in an assertive and direct manner. And one last tip in this area, I will say is, you’re getting overwhelmed, most likely because you don’t have tools and scripts to deal with difficult situations. So the moment anything comes up or you’re being challenged, you freak out you freeze and again, that threatening response is what shuts you down because you’re feeling helpless. AW: Exactly. No alternative. Really, you don’t have a plan. TA: Yeah. If that’s happening, what that means is you should start reading books about communication and relationships and … AW: hallelujah. TA: Exactly. Learn some scripts about how to articulate your needs in a non-aggressive manner. And so it’s your job to learn to navigate these relationships and respond in a way that you’re advancing your needs, and also being respectful and caring to the person in front of you. AW: So my next question is actually about navigating those relationships, whether it’s personal or professional. Do we all feel the same emotions? Or are there differences? Is there like a segmentation scheme? And across what factors might they vary? TA: That’s a really great question. Interestingly enough, when I asked this question of do we all feel the same emotions to an MBA class full of lots of very smart people, I will get anywhere between 30 to 70%, saying we do not feel the same emotions, which I think is mind boggling, because we’re all humans. We all share the same physiology at the end of the day. Now to answer that question, Paul Ekman ended up going to a tribe that was not contacted by the outside world and he started videotaping their emotional expressions. And he started showing them different expressions from different cultures and ask them like what is the story of this emotional expression? Basically, what he found is that there’s no such thing as someone, let’s say showing an angry face when they’re happy, or someone smiling when they’re angry naturally, naturally, there’s no such thing. There are seven emotional expressions give or take… AW: Oh, I want to hear what the seven are! TA: So there’s seven emotional expressions that – basically our core emotions that we all express. So it’s enjoyment, fear, disgust, contempt, surprise, sadness, and anger. There are of course, different variations. And then there’s secondary emotions, which is something like guilt, compassion, right? But those are the core emotions. We all feel. Yeah. Now, culture gives us cues for what is okay to express and how.  So there’s a great study that put Americans and Japanese to watch a movie. So Japanese are known to be a little bit more reserved. So you might assume that they’re not feeling emotions, right? Now, when both cultural groups didn’t think that they were being watched, both the Americans and the Japanese express the same emotions at the exact same time throughout the movie – in the same way or similar way. When they thought they were being watched, only the Americans expressed emotions. AW: Oh, interesting. That’s really interesting. TA: That’s a very powerful lesson about the role of culture in moderating how we express emotions. But also to suggest just because someone isn’t expressing something the way you would expect, it doesn’t mean they’re not feeling it. So the onus falls on you to try to be a little bit more patient and be a little bit more expressive and ask them what they’re thinking. AW: Right. TA: One of the things I say is just because you learn how to read body language doesn’t mean you’re a mind reader. AW: That’s right. And there are people out there who have studied body language that are misguiding you by faking it,… TA: oh my god, I have to say, that’s one of my hugest pet peeves. I’m sure I hate. I hate people that call themselves experts that do not ground anything that they know in facts. And this is so upsetting because they’re perpetrating false narratives. They’re giving people the wrong tools. And in that moment where you genuinely want to learn and improve, you might think that there’s something wrong with you because you’re following this thing that “experts,” (I’m using quotes), “experts” say you should do and it’s not working. Well, it’s not working… AW: So are you talking about body language coaches? TA:  I’m talking about lots of different types of coaches. But body language coaches. Yeah. Because so when I started looking at people in pop culture and just people like writing books about it, I started looking at… AW: I can think of the names I know. TA: Yeah, I started looking at the CVs and I’m like, I remember recently, I saw someone saying to be a body language expert, and he was a doctor. He was a chiropractic doctor. AW: Yeah. TA: I think we all have valuable knowledge, but just be honest about what you are. Yeah, I got to bring that in…! AW: Oh, how do you feel? Tatiana? Tell us what emotion are you feeling right now? TA: Oh, my god. I’m not amused. AW: That is funny. What about males versus females? TA: Ah, that is an interesting one. Interestingly enough, when women have neutral faces, it gets coded as negative by males. So this this speaks to this idea of people always saying, well, you should smile – more specific to women in our culture. We do not like women having neutral faces. And there’s a study that actually even uses famous celebrity women who showed that this idea of quote unquote, “resting bitchface” is just a woman having a neutral face. AW: Right, it was actually just going to say that! TA: If your face needs to rest, give yourself a break like it needs to rest, but also know that males and females have to express more positive emotions in their relationships. Another interesting one, for example, is when men speak up in meetings, it’s seen as taking initiative and is rewarding, but when females do it, they’re seen as rude and they actually get pinged. So again, there’s all these cultural cues that we put on top of gender that really misconstrue what the person is feeling. And another huge difference is women are allowed to express sadness, but they can’t express anger. And men are allowed to express anger, but they can’t express sadness. So what you get is, a lot of the time you’ll find women cry when they’re angry, and they don’t even know that they’re feeling angry because they’ve been so conditioned to suppress it. And if anger is about boundaries, Right. It’s so fascinating because it’s basically women’s boundaries being violated and then not knowing that they need to act and assertively say, No, this isn’t okay. AW: That is really interesting. Is this changing over time, do you think? TA: I think it’s important to note that we all feel the same emotions, regardless of gender and culture. And if we start from that place, and we start learning how to express ourselves, we can cultivate relationships that are genuine. And that can be a starting point to have more honest discussions and maybe start changing corporate culture. academia is very powerful in just debunking cultural myths, right? AW: So we can stop saying this idea of like, oh, women are so emotional, and men are so rational. TA: I don’t even know what that means. Yeah, but I do know what’s wrong. AW: I can imagine that that would confuse you. TA: That would mean that that makes me very upset. But when you have this research and you let’s say laid out to business students, or execs, then they start shifting the way they see people and their employees and I do see a big difference in my students when they walk out because they email me years later, saying, you know what, what you taught me helped. And last year, I’m so thrilled I actually had someone’s wife messaged me through the students saying like, thank you because I’ve noticed a difference in my husband. AW: That’s amazing. TA: Yeah, it’s so exciting because I focus on negotiations in the business context. But at the end of the day, we’re all humans. We’re social. And so everything’s about managing social relationships. And once you learn that skill, it transfers over to all these different aspects of your life. AW: Is there anything else in terms of advice that you have for listeners related to emotions and optimizing their communication? TA: You know what I’m going to leave you with this message that I share to all my students. A lot of the times you might sit there and say, oh, that person’s kind of making me feel bad. I promise you, it’s not them. It’s you. AW: It’s you. TA: So if you start with the assumption that it’s you, now all of a sudden you have the responsibility and the ability to go do something about it. Start investing in yourself by learning to meditate, learning to regulate your emotions, learning what anger and sadness feels like in your body and start to also pick up communication tools and practicing them. So how to sit, how to speak your boundaries, how to express your needs, how to make demands of people how to say no to people, and from that space with all those tools, all your relationships are going to improve. Once you learn to express yourself differently, people are just automatically going to respond to you differently. That’s, that’s a worthy endeavor. It’s exciting. AW: And it’s empowering. It’s not you, it’s me, it’s my turn to step up. TA: And the last thing I want to say is, if you do your work, and the counterpart isn’t matching you, then you’ve learned something valuable about that relationship and you want to you might want to walk away or put some, you know, contingencies in place to protect you from people. So not only does this deepen relationships, but it will show you which are the good ones in your life, and which are the bad ones. I think that’s an amazing thing to know because then you can just invest your time in the people that matter to you. AW: Okay, now we’re going to shift to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. Are you ready? TA: I’m ready. AW: First question, what are your pet peeves? TA: People walking in the middle of the street, I find this very upsetting because I can’t walk around them. People who say shedule instead of schedule. AW: That’s funny, that’s a very specific one. TA: But when I hear it in a business meeting, I just ,part of me just like clicks off and goes oh that sounded wrong. And that squeaky noise a knife makes on plates. Like I have left restaurants when I realized like that was a thing that was going to be happening. I can’t handle it. AW: Really? TA: Yeah, it like sends down a weird shiver in my spine. And I have a physical reaction to it. AW: Interesting. Question number two, what type of learner are you? visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? TA: You know what I actually learn through having a personal connection to the material independent of the medium. So if I know it’s important, if I see the relevance in my life, I will dive deep into it. But if someone’s just telling me some sort of theory, it really doesn’t matter. Like how they’re presenting it. I’m just going to check out. AW: so it’s almost like an experiential learner. TA: Yeah, I think I think that that must be what it is. AW:  Okay, question number three: introvert or extrovert? TA: I am an introvert who has learned to be an extroverted introvert. While I enjoy mixing with lots of people and I’ll do it I feel extremely exhausted afterwards. And I literally need to go in a dark space and be myself. AW: Okay, you are an introvert. Interesting. Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations? TA: You know what?, I love voice messages. I love voice messages. AW:  interesting. TA:  Because emotions are expressed through our body, our face, and our voice. And our voice is super rich. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? TA: I have to recommend four. AW:  Okay. TA: So the first one that I love is Relationship Alive by Neil Sattin, and he’s a therapist, where he talks to scholars and different therapists all about communication tools, relationships, it’s a really great one. Love that resource. AW:  Okay, I’m going to put a link in the show notes to all of these just in case listeners are scrambling for a pen. TA: Yes, don’t scramble. The next one that I love is HBR Women at Work. AW:  Yeah. TA: And that’s an editorial team that again, talks to researchers and gives you practical takeaways. And I’ve learned so much from that podcast. Like it just it’s amazing. Another one that I love is the ManTalks podcast with Connor Beaton. I think that’s really great for men, because he taught, he’s a therapist. And again, there’s a lot of really great conversations about communication and relationships. And the last one I’m going to give you is Francesca Maximé Wise Girl, which is more for minorities. And it’s really understanding how cultural structures impact your individual behavior and how to come up out of that. So again, she actually is a journalist, and she talks a lot about race, intergenerational trauma, patriarchy, and it’s a great resource for that group. AW:  Wow, what a list and I have to say it’s really interesting that you have the podcast that’s targeting women at work. But then also men at work. It’s almost like you’re exercising media hygiene in your podcasts. TA: Yeah, I think it’s really important to be aware of the different conversations happening and to not be stuck in your own silo. So I share those four podcasts. I listened to all of them. But you know, if you need to find something that speaks to you, I believe that’s where that’s how you should start. AW:  Yeah, thank you so much. I learned a lot. I know the listeners will too. And I hope we can do it again sometime. Thank you. TA: I would love that. And it’s been a pleasure to be here and share this information. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]   ***When referencing resources and products, Talk About Talk sometimes uses affiliate links. 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Learning strategist & parenting coach Kimberley Acres helps us in this time of physical distancing and online schooling with parenting philosophies and online learning tactics, including optimizing our children’s workspace, setting boundaries, and celebrating!   REFERENCES & LINKS Kimberley Acres LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberley-acres-1793a0104/ Email – [email protected] Parenting coach Kimberley Acres with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki on their Zoom interview Books & Resources The Journey of the Heroic Parent by Brad M. Reedy, PhD How to Talk So Teens Will Listen & Listen So Teens Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish   The Four Agreements– A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom – Don Miguel Ruiz The Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown WEBSITE: Kids Health PODCAST: The Life Coach School with Brooke Castillo Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – [email protected] Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/newsletter Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcasts – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/communication-skills-podcast/ Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Kim, for joining us here today to share your expertise. Kim Acres: Thank you for having me. AW: All right, let’s start with a general question. What should we as parents be thinking about in terms of our role in our children’s education? KA: That is a great question for today, particularly after most of us have been housebound with our children, watching them and ourselves struggle through what education looks like in the time of COVID-19. I’d like to take that question and sort of put it into two parts. The first part is the role of the parents and the second part is our children’s education. It is sometimes challenging for us to really recognize that it is our children’s education, and in my experience, working with parents through hundreds of parent teacher interviews, the thing I noticed the most that’s such a challenge. For parents is to let themselves off the hook. Ultimately, our children’s education is their education. And the moment we let ourselves off the hook, we empower our children to own their own education and to own their own learning. All of us as parents struggle with this idea of who we want our children to be of having control of accepting our children the way that they are. And then as a result, encouraging them and empowering them to own their own experiences. I can give you an example of a time a strong memory I have years ago coaching ice hockey, and I had a five year old girl, a really great skater at that age and I was tying her skates. And as I’m tying her skates, she said, I’m so excited for today. My mom said if I get a goal she’s going to give me $5. AW: Wow. KA: And I had this tightness in my stomach because as a coach, and – anyone who’s had their child in that age of hockey knows that we change their positions every game. So some games, they’re a defenseman some games, they’re at center some games, they’re the goalie, and I had put this little girl on defense that day. So I knew exponentially that her chance of getting a girl had gone down significantly. Needless to say, she didn’t get a goal. And I will never forget this, the idea that it’s not one experience that dictates our child’s education. But the moment we let go of owning it, or controlling it, or trying to make it something, our children get to own it. AW: That’s a great point. But when you said we need to let go of the outcome, we need to let ourselves off the hook. I’m in my mind saying so much easier said than done. Right? I mean, I’m seeing impending disaster and I just want to save them and it’s such a cliche when parenting – we save our kids. KA: It is let me share a metaphor. It’s one that has over time been a powerful perspective on education for me. If you think of your child’s education as a tree, and the education system as the trunk and education from kindergarten through to post secondary education will provide for our children, the foundation, the strength of the trunk. When parenting, we offer the nutrients, we take our children on trips, we walk around the block and have a conversation, we get them a bicycle, we become the motivators of the branches, and that leads sometimes we even get to pick the tree, it can be an oak, it can be a weeping willow, it can be a birch tree. That metaphor has provided for me so much solace in the education system. There is no perfect education system, but every education system will provide that trunk what the rest of the tree looks like. Is it in our domain, we get to see our children after school, we get to be the recipients of what their day was like, and the capacity to accept that we don’t have to control the outcome. We don’t need to be fearful for our children. And there’s a lot of fear right now around this time period, what are students going to lose? The opportunity inside, of being at home as a family is much greater than the potential loss. So what’s the role of parents? I know a lot of parents are feeling right now that they need to be teachers as well. But if we can let go of the outcome, ultimately, and trust that everything is an education, we will see our students, our children thrive inside of this and a very simple thing we can do is validate. What’s the difference between praise and validation? Well, praise is That’s great or Good job. It’s almost meaningless. But something that validates is a strong statement. I saw today you spend a lot of time on math, we validate their action. Rather than saying good job on math today. I want them to feel as though even if they’re not strong at it, they’re not scared of it. So a validating statement right now is probably the best opportunity we have to support our kids in their learning is to validate what they’re doing. AW: So would you say that the validation is about effort versus the praise is about outcome? KA: Yes, yes. Our children aren’t always going to be successful. And if we’re only looking at their outcome or the outcome that we want for them, we’re almost setting them up for failure. AW: Well, this links to your metaphor, which I absolutely love, I love metaphors in general. And I think the tree metaphor is really beautiful. I love it. And I’m wondering if working within that metaphor, if we should be thinking about when parenting, our role, as you said is it’s the foundation. So are we the soil, the nutrients? And so therefore when parenting should we be really focusing on providing learning opportunities. Is that our job? KA: I will be the last person to tell parents what they should do, I really want us to escape from that word should, and look at what we can do. And all parents from every background have the skills to look at what they can offer. It might just be a little sticky note beside our teenager as he or she is forcing herself to look at these online videos that says hot chocolate later, or lunch at 12. And those statements of validation take away the pressure of having to be something in my experience as a teacher of high school students, they put enough pressure themselves, and they do it instinctually and sometimes it’s in the form of acting out. Sometimes it’s in the form of defiance, sometimes it’s in the form of complacency. But yes, we look at our job as broadening and education’s job is moving kids upward, then every opportunity we expose our children to becomes a branch. But if we trust it, and then we actively look at who we are as part of their lives outside of the institution, we can build the most amazing strong branches and leaves and fruit and berries and seeds that will create possibilities and opportunities for our kids for years and years and years and beyond the math or the geography or the English tutorial that they’re working on today. AW: Exactly. Well, that’s beautiful and very empowering as well. And I want to go back to your story about the young hockey player who skates you were doing up. And I was wondering what your take is on intrinsic versus extrinsic motivations and rewards as I guess, particularly in terms of parenting. KA: That action of wanting to motivate our children beyond the actual experience is deep and real. And we’re also living in a culture where everyone gets a red ribbon. So there’s a certain age where kids will thrive on that idea of competition, but it runs out. extrinsic motivation versus intrinsic is really a developmental part of who our children are. And if we go back to Eric Erickson’s stages of psychosocial development. For example, we know that there are ages in which students can’t possibly or our children can’t possibly comprehend the satisfaction of an intrinsic reward, but it comes with experience. So I think that story really was a reminder to me of the need to be careful with our extrinsic motivators because they run out. What happens at age 16. What happens at age 19? If our children are still looking for something outside of themselves, what happens when our teenage daughters get on Instagram? Or they get Snapchat or they follow TikTok videos, and they see others looking their best because everybody can look good on social media, right? AW: I think that’s, that’s a great example. You go on social media, and suddenly it’s all extrinsic, right? And I actually hadn’t thought of that. I have to tell you this my now 16 year old was playing a basketball and we he would do really well in practice, but not in games. And one time I said to him, I’m gonna pay you $1 for every rebound and $5 for a basket, and he had the best game he’s ever had in his entire life. And the assistant coach said to me, what did you feed him? So Afterwards, I said, we’re never doing that again. But now you know what you’re capable of, Here’s your money. Think about it. And we actually still talk about it because we talked about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards in this house, actually, so KA: Well, and I can add to that, if you want just the idea of who’s the reward for? As parents, we want to see our children succeed. And we sometimes will offer these types of rewards because it makes us feel better and right. It felt great, I’m sure, right. AW: To be honest, the whole time I was ashamed because I know about all the research on extrinsic. I mean, I was proud of his basketball progress, but I was ashamed of anyway, that’s fine. KA: That’s a really honest share. AW: so so as we were talking about intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, you said there may be an evolution as as children mature, so I’m wondering if we can talk a little bit about how children’s needs evolve as they mature. KA: Currently, when I’m talking to students they’re virtual learning, I’m talking to a range of ages. And it is very interesting to identify what kids know about themselves at different ages. And when we’re young, we’re really looking around for the models. Most of us as parents have had our young children come home at one point or another and throw out a swear word. Sometimes we marvel at where that came from. That’s part of the learning at that stage is the maturation is to sort of mimic. But as kids grow, they start to demand autonomy. And as the adolescent brain changes, and it’s a very intense change through those preteen and teen years, and a little bit of understanding of that can really support us as parents and how to support them. And I would encourage every parent to talk to their preteen and their tween about what’s happening to your brain and not use it as an excuse. That’s not fair. But to use it as knowledge, helping them to understand themselves, helping them to understand their friends, Why are my friends acting out? Why does my best friend not care about school anymore? Why doesn’t my friend talk to me instead of just looking at his phone all the time when we’re walking home from school? AW: Yeah. And implicit in that answer, I think was something that I think is really important, which is you can ease your way into the conversation about your child by talking about their friends, right? KA: Very much.  Yeah, and think about when their friends are over. Yeah, it’s very entertaining when you sit down at dinner with a friend, your child and one of their friends, the liberty their friends have with sharing that sometimes your own child won’t. So hearing through our children’s friends and their boyfriends and girlfriends and others that they bring into their lives is a great way to covertly and quietly discover what they are up to, and the role we play in the same home. It definitely changes over time, and a lot of us will see our teenagers become a little more secretive. Maybe they will bring friends into their lives quietly as their primary confidant. Some of our kids will go to their rooms and predominantly live in work in their rooms. I always want to know what’s going on with my children, but lots of times they’re not going to answer a direct question anymore. Because it’s theirs. And I want to empower them to be young people. I want to empower them to make their own choices, preferably good ones, but there are going to be times when they make ones that I don’t like. And a couple of little strategies that have really allowed my children and I to stay sane with each other would include modeling. If they see me going out and getting some exercise. When they see me calling somebody on the phone to have a chat. If they see me taking a risk starting a business That has been a key to empowering them to be themselves and know that it’s okay to make mistakes. Mm hmm. AW: I find that empowering and inspiring personally as well, right? It takes some of the weight off to think, well, I just have to show them. KA: Correct. Correct. It goes back to that thing we talked about right at the beginning, that we don’t have to own the outcome they get to have the outcome. Being able to come along is a privilege when our kids are teenagers, if they still want us to come and watch a game, if they still want to show us how they’ve done in school. It’s a gift. And I celebrate those moments. AW: That’s an important mindset. I think it’s not my right. It’s a privilege. KA: Yeah, it is. And we ultimately need to remember the end game. We want our children to step out into the young adult world with enough confidence and resiliency, self advocacy to own their own personal experiences. So that idea of really holding space just hold space. Silence is uncomfortable, but it is a gift to teenagers Hmm, hold space. Listen for what isn’t said. And don’t listen as an L1 learner. When my kid says something, I’ll say oh, well that happened to me too or Oh when I was this age. They don’t need to hear about our experiences now. They need to be okay with their own. When we become an L2 or an L3 learner, we’re watching how our kids are telling us information. We are watching for the gestures we’re watching for what they don’t say. So that idea of holding space, modeling and the last little piece that has been gold for me and I know for parents that have been able to do this it’s been gold for them as well, is admitting when we’re wrong. Right? I do sometimes get angry with my kids. For even still for the littlest things they did when they were five coming in with muddy boots, or not putting their dishes in the dishwasher. How many times do we need to tell them those little simple basics that they should be able to help out with? AW: And this is amplified right now with all of us being contained in our homes with our family. right? KA: So, this was pure luck, I think. But I found myself a few years ago, apologizing for an angry outburst. And it was a very vulnerable moment for me. And I realized, I think I had finally found this self awareness to realize that there was something else going on in my mind that caused me to get angry with my daughter. And I went back to her bed an hour later, and I said, You know what, I responded incorrectly. If I could take back what I said to you an hour ago, I would here’s why I think I said it and I just said what I was worried about, and being human and being vulnerable also gives our children license to be vulnerable. And who isn’t vulnerable today in this moment, in this time in history, I want our children to remember this time as one of opportunity to look at decisions that adults have made that they see value in. Right? So those are the three little things I would share as gems. AW: So modeling, holding space and admitting when we’re wrong, and being vulnerable. Your story there reminded me of a conversation that I had with my eldest just at the beginning of this physical distancing situation that we’re all in and I said that I read online. I think it was Gretchen Rubin, the happiness guru. She said, as we’re embarking on this new social experiment that none of us have experienced before. Ask yourself, what story do you want to tell yourself when this is all over? Isn’t that empowering? It actually gives me the shivers. KA: What a great comment for all of us. But yeah, what opportunity will you discover in this? Yeah, Brené Brown, recently in an interview was asked a question about having courage right now and that people who are courageous must be really excelling. And she commented back something along the lines of Well, no, because taking a risk is messy. Being courageous means that you’re trying something you haven’t tried before. And then she said, I will misquote her slightly, but she said something like, this is my first pandemic. How about you? AW: Yeah. I love it. KA: And that’s it. Right? We are all human. We’re all vulnerable, where we are all looking at ourselves in the mirror going what happened today? AW: yeah. So on one hand, though, I feel like there’s been a lot of pressure because as you said, we’re constantly role modeling and the kids are watching us and you know, yesterday, I vacuumed my entire house, top to bottom. every nook and cranny and I became grumpier and grumpier, as it was happening. I think there were two main things that were contributing to that. One was I just kept thinking, I was in my head, right. I just kept thinking about what’s going on. And it was really bringing me down. And also, as I was vacuuming, I was seeing all the messes from the other four people in my house. And what they had left behind for their maid (IE me) to clean up and I was getting really grumpy. And I was, I was just really down on it, and on everyone in anything in my way, and then afterwards, to your point, I did apologize. And I told them, here’s why I was grumpy its these two things. And but I’m really sorry, and I should, I should be able to handle this better KA: And good for you. How brave to take that moment to pause, reflect on your own actions, and then share them back, mirror them back to your children. AW: I was pretty grumpy. I have to say. KA: I think we’ve all been very grumpy and the only suggestion that that I might have here that is a pretty powerful learning piece for all of us as parents, when we go back to the book that many of us looked at, at the beginning of our parenting life, What to Expect When You’re Expecting or what to expect in the first year, I think that’s the only two books that could be titled with what to expect, because after that, it’s pretty tough to know what to expect. AW: That is so true. KA: This is really one of those times, but we can set boundaries right now for ourselves and know what they are as parents. And if the boundary is that at the end of the day, the counter needs to be cleaned so that we start our mornings fresh while we are all living together, then it’s fair to state that boundary. If the boundary is that all of our teenagers right now own three hours a day of their own learning, then let’s share that boundary and be clear with it and not waffle with it. Our kids, well, most of the time, they’ll respect our boundaries. But they need to know what they are first. And that’s a great – looking at ourselves as parents, what are we comfortable with. And we have modeled values. Maybe I want to take the pressure off, because throughout our growth as families, we share values, but it’s not our job to insist our children accept all of those values. I hope that I’ve modeled the values of charitable actions, a growth, mindset, kindness, self preservation and self care to my daughters. I can insist that they also accept those as their own values. I can model those. And when we get into this, insisting that the outcome has to be something, we not only set ourselves up for real challenges, particularly now inside of our homes, together. AW: that is the scary thing that we were talking about at the very beginning, right? So you want to back off and let them learn and let them fall and not save them all the time. You know what, I’ve heard it so many times. And it’s it is very compelling, consistent message. So thank you for that. Now, I’m wondering if we can get into a little bit of the nitty gritty about online learning. And I know that you have had some experience over the years and right now you’re actually coaching some families and some teenagers and other younger students how to optimize their learning. And I’m wondering if you can share with the listeners what we can do to enable that when parenting. KA: Certainly learn at home, I keep hearing learn at home, and it’s really not a new philosophy, except that we’ve attempted to move school inside of our homes. I’d like to call it virtual learning. And I think I want to also acknowledge to every parent that this is a necessary step. To support the moment we’re in in time, and that’s all. So we want to encourage our children to do the best they can inside of what virtual and online learning has to offer. Knowing that this is not a forever style of learning. What I have had the pleasure of doing in the last couple of weeks is meeting with students of all ages and trying to bring a lightness to this learning. So the first step that I that I take with kids and teenagers is to talk to them about what they like. And some kids can rhyme off a list of 20 activities or items that they like others really pause to recognize what is it that I like? And what I try to do is embed students in okay when you like something, how do you feel and find out the vocabulary sometimes too, for a 10 year old or a 12 year old or a 16 year old to, to explain how he or she feels about an experience is challenging. But if we can take those positive feelings with us and know what we feel like at the moment when we are the most proud, that’s another question that I’ve been asking. What did you feel at a time when you were the most proud of something that you had done? We put kids into that moment, and we help them recognize what it feels like when we’re doing something we like. Then it takes the fear out of and the uncertainty and the lack of engagement and then just the discerning necessity of Oh, I have to learn this way. So it’s sort of disarms the resistance a little bit. Yeah. So that’s a positive approach. If we’re as parents complaining about the limitations of virtual learning. Well, believe me, our children will find more. Right? And I’m not going to pretend it’s perfect. Like I said to you earlier, it’s the trunk. And it’s a little bit of the trunk right now. It’s probably the part that’s the winding or it has the, the outgrowth, the sort of the big word on the trunks of some reason, you see. So it has limitations. But this online world is something that our children are living in. Right, they’re comfortable there. And so that’s the thing that we can celebrate with them. This is theirs to own they know how to learn inside of technology. AW: Yeah, yesterday, my eldest made a very sort of flippant comment to me about you know, this online learning is getting a little bit boring. But yesterday, our teacher mixed it up and he had us do some exercise and then come back in the second half of the class and talk about what we did and it was it was awesome. And I said to him, why don’t you just send your teacher a private note and tell them that because I think your teacher is probably struggling as much as you are with this. And the fact that he did something that you appreciated would mean a lot to him. And also, he might do it again or look for another way of bringing in some novelty. KA: Wonderful. And, you know, we know that’s a great way of kind of getting what we would like more of right identify what we enjoyed in it. And we want to do that with our kids. Right. I saw you put the dishes away last night. Thank you. Yeah, right. I nag you every night about it. Now, I stopped nagging you but I saw you do it. I guarantee you that goes into our teenagers mind. So how validating for your son to send that to his teacher and for the teacher then to receive it. We’re all humans, we’re all looking for positive feedback at a time when none of us none of us have the script. AW: Right. So And to your point earlier, he was talking about something that he likes right and Then reinforcing it with the person that basically enabled that positive opportunity. Can you just share a little bit more about what we do with the answers? So when our kids tell us what they like or when they’re most proud, are we then reverse engineering, the online experience to leverage those things somehow? Or what are we doing with their answers? KA: So the next question that I asked is, I’ve been asking students to identify what their students strengths are. There are some students recognizing that they need they know many times students know what they need to learn. They sometimes don’t know how they learn, they sometimes don’t know how to get to the desired outcome. But most of them know their strengths. And so when we have our children pause and say, What am I good at? And often that idea can be facilitated through that question of what do I like? Students will tell you I love I’m good at shooting hoops. For example, let’s just take something they like, well, what makes you good at it? Well, I go out in the laneway. And I do it all the time. Well, I know as a teacher, that’s practice. I use that metaphor in my classroom all the time, you don’t show up a few, a few Michael Jordans will show up and get three point shooters off the bat. But there’s an old example for you, that dates me, but most learners practice and so if we can get students to notice a strength, I have this practice and bring that willingness to practice this new form of learning. Another strength that I’m really noticing the students I’ve worked with thus far on their approach to virtual learning are identifying that they thrive in a quiet space without distractions. So I’ve had some of them I have a snapchat bitmoji and a snapchat address that I share with my students as their coats. And they have to snap me a picture of their workplace. And then they have to snap me a picture the teenagers where they’re leaving their phone during their work time. So here’s my workspace –  is a very important one. And when we ask students to dig in a little bit to how they learn and start to own their learning, which is the ultimate goal, and this will look different at different ages, but when we hit when our when our children hit grades, 11 and 12, we want them to be able to identify and state I’ve learned the best when I’m doing these things. AW:  That’s really important, isn’t it? KA: Yeah, it is. And I very much see in this opportunity to learn online and through virtual lessons, the opportunity to examine how we learn. If I notice as a 14 year old boy that I am sitting for 20 minutes and I start to get fidgety in my chair. Then I create a schedule where I work for 25 minutes and I take a five minute break. And I go shoot 10 threes in the laneway or I go run around the block or whatever it is I need to do. I come back and I work for another 25. And that will vary with ages. We talked about kids and how they mature, giving them some control, letting them create a workspace, letting them create a schedule AW: and letting them feel like they’re customizing their own experience, right? KA: Yes, I have one young man who wears his father’s tie when he’s a student. And he takes the tie off and he leaves it at his workstation when he’s not a student. And it’s a tiny little thing. Put on something you feel great about. If you’re a Leafs fan or a Raptors fan and you feel great in that in the shirt you wear when you go to one of their games, put it on when you’re a student, leave it at your computer at your workplace when you’re not. AW: I love that. So physically using symbolism around you. It could be what you’re wearing. Yeah, I love your exercise about asking a snapshot photo of their workspace and where their phone is. I think that’s absolutely brilliant. I’m sure they respect you for that, too. KA: They are loving it. And you know, it’s a fun little thing and I get to send off my own bitmoji but cheerleading or dancing or whatever. AW: Oh, you like the bitmoji? I love it right? KA: It’s a celebration, the more we can celebrate our children’s intentions, the more they celebrate themselves. AW: Well, I love the positive inspiring message of celebrating and also you talked a lot about role modeling and taking the pressure off and, and I’m feeling much more optimistic right now, I think than I was before I started my conversation with you. But I, I have to ask you one other thing before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, just to keep in the back of my mind and hopefully this will help the listeners as well. When parenting, what are the biggest mistakes that people make in terms of encouraging a positive learning mindset in their tweens and teens? KA: If we want to begin with a positive learning mindset as parents, I want to encourage all of us to not think about making mistakes. As soon as we think about ourselves making a mistake, then we set ourselves up maybe for failure, or maybe for not doing as much as we feel we should do. And there’s a great book The Journey of the Heroic Parent, by Brad Reedy. It’s an excellent and very supportive parent book. He suggests that there’s no way you’re going to avoid screwing up as a parent, you will make mistakes even at times big ones, and that’s okay. We started this conversation with the idea of letting ourselves off the hook. And especially at this time, I want to encourage every parent to do that, to celebrate, to be a learner yourself ,to acknowledge when we’re wrong, because occasionally we are. And to validate that. Children are doing the best they can. When we observe their efforts, have a lightness. Life is about lightness, and what better time than to laugh a little bit together at the craziness of the world that we are in at this moment. A positive learning mindset is a willingness to learn. And our kids all have it. Look at this as an opportunity and celebrate. AW: Very, very nicely put. Thank you. Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? KA: Yes. AW: First question. What are your pet peeves? KA: I really don’t have a lot of things that bother me on a daily basis. But I will say when I’m walking to work, and a car passes me and splashes my shoes, that really is something that I can’t get past and it’s, it’s often for me, not forgivable. AW: I don’t think that’s forgivable for anyone. Question number two. What type of learner are you? KA: I am really an experiential learner, I can remember every activity that I have done where I have moved forward in my understanding of who I am, or I have learned something about the world around me. And as an adult now looking back and as a teacher, I know that I can identify my big learning moments with experiences, but I didn’t really learn that I would say until adulthood. AW: Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert. KA: I am, despite the fact that I’m a teacher and I stand in front of students, and I have conversations with colleagues all day, I’m an introvert. And it took me a long time to be comfortable with that. I spent some time really learning about the characteristics of introvert versus extrovert and I want to say there’s nothing wrong with either of them. But I do read re energize being by myself. AW: It’s really important self knowledge, isn’t it? to understand how you refuel. Okay, question number four communication preference for personal conversations. KA: I don’t think this is old school because I use all of the technology. But I am certainly a face to face person. And my daughters both know that they know when we have a topic when plans have changed, we talk about it. It isn’t enough to just send a message saying something changed. I like to hear their voice if face to face isn’t possible. And then the other little thing I’ve added to all my communication with my children, as they’ve gotten older, is permission. I often ask permission to talk about something and they’ll tell if they’re busy, because I can say, Can I ask you about what happened yesterday? And then they’ll say not right now. Or can we talk about that later? AW: I really like your second point too, though, about asking permission and I’ve been teaching my kids that when they call someone and they have something that they want or need to discuss that they should always say, do you have a moment to talk about whatever. But I think that should, to your point transcend across any media. If you want to talk to someone about something, it’s not necessarily convenient or optimal for them and you should check in first KA: And that’s respectful. It’s teaching empathy. It’s showing compassion. AW: Yeah, fantastic point. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? KA: The podcast that tremendously supported me a number of years ago and I have moved away from a little bit now only because i think i’ve i’ve saturated some of the messages is called The Life Coach School, and it’s Brooke Castillo. And if a parent is looking for a way to support their own learning as a way of reflecting on who they are, as human beings, she just breaks down the basics of asking ourselves questions, what does hope look like, how do we support overwhelm? So real basics, simple messages that you can pick up and take with you in a moment. AW: Well, that’s a great recommendation. I’ll make sure I put links to that podcast in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to share with the listeners? KA: Keep trusting yourself. And we’ve all got the ability in us to be the kind of parents we want to be. It’s no easy task, but it’s one of the most beautiful gifts that we can have as human beings to participate in the lives of our children. AW: That is such a beautiful message. Thank you so much, Kim, for sharing your time and your expertise with us. KA: Thank you for the opportunity. It’s been a pleasure. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email:         [email protected]   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #49 PARENTING TEENS & ONLINE LEARNING with learning strategist & parenting coach Kimberley Acres appeared first on Talk About Talk.

On presenting with confidence. Learn how to create a compelling presentation, then present it with confidence. Tips for your body language (posture, feet, hands), remembering to pause, projecting strength, warmth, authenticity and passion, and sticking to your one key message.   REFERENCES & LINKS Andrew Musselman LinkedIn– https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-musselman-06595316a/ Fluency – https://www.learnfluency.com/ Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Andrew Musselman Books & Resources Talk Like Ted by Carmine Gallo – https://amzn.to/38eNkN3 Slide-ology by Nancy Duarte – https://amzn.to/3cciurv Gravitas: Communicate with Confidence, Influence and Authority by Caroline Goyder – https://amzn.to/2Vxdpnu Compelling People: The Hidden Qualities That Make Us Influential by John Neffinger & Matthew Kohut – https://amzn.to/38b6CCE Ted Talks: Amy Cuddy – https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_may_shape_who_you_are Bryan Stevenson – https://www.ted.com/talks/bryan_stevenson_we_need_to_talk_about_an_injustice Brené Brown –https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_the_power_of_vulnerability Video – Phil Davison, “epic speech for treasurer”- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfbBCYQm-4 Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ?Andrea’s email– [email protected] ?Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ?Website– https://talkabouttalk.com ?Subscribe to the Podcast– https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ?Private Facebook Group-https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki:So you said that nine out of 10 people are really concerned about presenting with confidence. And I have to tell you that I’ve asked many of my friends and colleagues, what to ask you about how to give a compelling presentation and 100% of them, the first thing that they said was, how to exude confidence. So actually how to feel confident, but then also how to demonstrate confidence. Do you have any pointers for the listeners on presenting with confidence? Andrew Musselman: I do. The first thing that I like to say to people – you just said 100% of your listeners said they want us to talk about this. That’s something itself that needs to be talked about! We should pause and recognize that that when people feel like, I have a debilitating fear of this I don’t like getting up onstage, well,  you’re in very good company. AW:True. AM: The majority of the population does not like this. It’s that old Jerry Seinfeld joke, right, that that most people would rather be in the casket at a funeral than delivering the eulogy. So I think that’s worth people remembering. That this is not novel. This is very common when it comes to presenting with confidence. Again, pausing is huge because what pausing allows you to do, is it allows you to breathe and center yourself. It gives you time to think about what you’re what you’re going to say.You know, for a lot of people, the fear in pausing is, I’m going to look like I don’t know what I’m talking about. And the opposite is true. When a speaker is able to pause in front of an audience, they draw the attention right in towards them AW: true. It’s magnetic and  the cadence just changes. AM: Right AW: and people go, what? AM: Exactly. And if somebody is able to pause, you just they look like they own the space. So that’s a huge one. I also would say, you know, for those who suffer from a big fear of this practice, there’s nothing that is going to improve your confidence more than practice. That is the number one thing. The French the word for rehearsal in the theater is repetition, right? AW:I didn’t know that. AM: just for the sheer sake of repeating – and that is something I would definitely advocate. I am a huge fan of Amy Cuddy’sresearch on this. So if any of your listeners haven’t seen Amy Cuddy’s TED Talk, AW:yes, I’ve mentioned her a few times. But they may have missed those. AM: There you go. And her whole thing is that if you practice projecting confidence, which you can do, by the way you stand the way you speak, the way you breathe, and we can talk about specifics on that. But if you practice projecting confidence, it’s going to make you feel more confident, it’s going to change your psychology around all of this. The thing that I love that she says is, when speaking we should focus less on the impression that we’re making on other people and more on the impression that we’re making on ourselves. And that’s huge. You know, if you can get up there and her expression is, fake it till you become it. You just pretend you’re confident and pretty soon you’ll start feeling confident. AW:Yes, I believe that. I believe that, and I know from doing some research on presenting with confidence that, that she’s been highly criticized for that but I, I absolutely believe it because even physiologically, never mind mentally, your body is learning it. AM: Yes. I think it’s great. I think as an actor, I mean, you go backstage, there’s nobody… by the way, this is the other thing. There’s nobody who doesn’t feel nervous getting up in front of an audience, right? I have been in shows, you know, sometimes actors perform a show 50 or 100 times. And on that 100th performance, before walking out on that stage, you’re still nervous. And if you’re not getting nervous, you should worry because a might be a psychopath and be you might not really be caring about what’s going to happen. So that’s a huge thing is that everybody gets nervous. But if you see actors before a show, what they are doing is they are amping their energy up. And that’s another huge thing in terms of presenting with confidence that if you can get some energy going in your body, whether it’s shaking out your hands jumping up and down, going for a walk around the block, that is going to stand you in good stead. I got asked at a 30th wedding anniversary party to deliver a speech from Shakespeare. So I said yes. And the whole time I’m sitting at the table and I’m kind of, you know, with my husband and with a friend and another friend, and they kept turning to me, are you okay? And what I did, I got up and I went into the bathroom, and I stood in the stall and I just quietly, to myself, rehearsed the first few lines. I shook my hands out, I expanded my upper body, I did some deep breathing. So I tell that story because you do what you got to do. And don’t ignore those nerves but really thinking of meeting that challenge physically, which is what Amy Cuddy advocates, how are you standing? How are you breathing? And also what’s the energy that’s going through your body? I think that’s a great way to combat those nerves. AW:Well, it’s like warming up before an athletic performance. I just keep thinking that, right? AM: Yes, absolutely. If that you would never walk on to a tennis court or a basketball court or somebody without stretching, spending some time getting energized, warming up. AW:I interviewed an opera singer who told us about what he does to warm up his vocal cords before he goes to do a performance. So it’s –  you have to get into the zone. AM: Yes. And I bet you I mean, I don’t know how long an opera singers warm up is, but I bet you the first 25-30% of it is breathing. AW:Yes, you know, we talked a lot about breathing. It’s huge. AM: So I also think that I don’t mind the word confident, but I don’t like giving that advice to people saying just get up there and be confident because it’s kind of like telling a drowning person to relax.Hey, I would love to but I just don’t feel like that’s within my power right now. But I think when it comes to your voice, if you think of a strong, confident voice, a rich voice, as opposed to a loud voice, because you don’t want to just sound like you’re shouting at the audience. But if you think, Hey, I’m going to speak this, like, I mean it, that is going to be another thing that’s going to just make you feel more confident and more empowered. So I think that’s a big, big part of handling the nerves. AW:So, so related to presenting with confidence. Can we move into body language? They’re obviously related. And I know some people wonder, how should I stand? Should I stay behind the podium? Should I pick up the microphone and walk around and what do I do with my hands? Do you have any guidance there? AM: Yes. So if we go back to this idea of strength and warm, the first thing in terms of how you stand, the reality is confident people take up space. But there’s an interesting thing with this stuff. Strength and warm framework that researchers call the hydraulic effect. Which basically means if you try to project one of those things, it’s going to come at the expense of the other one. Oh, well, so you try and really be strong, you’re going to diminish your warm. AW:So as people assume they’re inversely correlated until you give them evidence? AM: I think the great example of that if you say to somebody stand confidently, and they puff up their chest and they raise their chin and they tense their entire upper body. You know, you could say, well, yes, that is confident, but there’s zero warmth there. Right? So when it comes to your posture and how to stand, I think the two things to think of is I always tell people, imagine if you have a string that’s pulling you up, so that you’re naturally expanding, you want to think of an expansive posture, rather than creating any kind of tension and tension. It doesn’t serve you as a speaker, but it also looks aggressive. So that is to be avoided. So taking up space, but in a natural, expansive kind of way. The other thing I would say to think about your posture is your feet should be firmly planted- really, really firmly planted. And I don’t mean that you’re not allowed to move. But something you’ll see a lot of times of speakers is that it’s almost like they got a little bit of a dance going on now they’re shuffling back and forth. It’s because that’s where their nervous energy is going. It’s Oh, yes, feet. Again, thinking of our primal instincts, how that looks to us. It looks shifty. You think the person’s being deceptive, you know. So I would say thinking of your feet nice and firmly planted, and if you are going to move, move with purpose, move with conviction. AW:That’s great advice. I’ve never heard that. I’m going to be watching for that. You know, in myself and others. AM: Yes. The best thing that you can think of in terms of physical stuff, I believe, is control and purposeful. You want your gestures, your movement to all look like it’s a choice. AW:Do we need to rehearse or practice your gestures? AM:  Maybe yes. It’s a little bit tricky because sometimes when you tell people to rehearse their gestures, and I’m going to talk about a very common technique in a moment, when you tell people to work with these techniques, the dangerous is that it looks forced. But I think if you become conscious of your gestures, and you become conscious of trying to be controlled and purposeful, the more you practice it, the more second nature it will become. So in terms of that age old question of what do you do with your hands? The first answer is use them. The reason that we gesture I mean, first of all, it makes us look animated makes us look dynamic. But it also goes back again to these survival instincts. You’re showing the listeners, no tools, no weapons. AW:That’s true, empty hand. That’s true. AM:That’s the reason that we wave, it’s the reason that we shake hands. If a speaker hides their hands, you know, if a speaker holds their hands behind their back, or if you’re at a boardroom table, and you’re speaking and your hands are under the table, AW:even at a dining room table, I’ve heard you should actually have your hands politely on the table. AM: That doesn’t surprise me actually. AW:Otherwise it makes people feel like what are you hiding? AM: Yes, it makes them feel at ease. Exactly. So you want to be gestured. But the same thing again, much like I was saying about the feet. The trouble is when the nervous energy gets into the hands and the gestures become repetitive, or sort of nonsense, when the gestures are just sort of happening, and the speaker has no control over them. So a technique that I advocate, again, this is a pretty well known technique, and it’s an old technique, but the prism where you press your fingertips together, AW:ah, AM: hold your hands. Yes, in a prison out in front of your body. It sounds ludicrous. And every time I talked to clients about this, they’re like, What are you telling me to do that for?What it does though, is it gives your hands a home base. So often, if your hands are just there in front of you, they become disembodied, and you think, what do I do with these things? Whereas if they’re, they’re in some kind of a home base, and if you don’t like the prism, you can expand it and imagine you’re holding a volleyball. You know, the magic volleyballis what the technique is called. If you give your hands a home base, then you don’t have to worry about them. And you know that any gesture is going to be controlled and purposeful and precise. And when you’ve made that specific gesture, then you can return to your home base. AW:I love it. It sounds like yoga class, right? Go back to home base. AM: Yes, tactic that technique of a home based as with your hands, it prevents your hands from having a mind of their own. So in terms of the strength piece of it, a big part of how you can project strength to your listeners is physical control. So I am standing in an energized can way with conviction. I’m gesturing precisely, I’m expansive. So to answer your question about to stand behind the podium or not, it always I think, looks more dynamic, if you get that podium can create a barrier between you and your listeners. AW:Yes, I agree. AM: Yes. So I think getting from behind that is a good strategy. If it’s technically possible, like you can walk with a mic. AM: Yes, if it’s technically possible. And also listen, if you’re somebody who is very nervous about the speech you have to give, you want your notes in front of you. And you have rehearsed a conversational style where you’re going to make eye contact, you’re going to pause, and you think that’s as much as I can do great. Stay behind the podium. Don’t make it too far. AW:baby steps. AM: Yes, exactly. Walk before you run. But I do think if it’s technically possible, and if it’s personally possible, walking around the stage looks great. Provided that you walk with energy, with purpose. And, you know, when you get to a different part of the stage, stand there for a bit, stay there, keep your feet still grounded, centered. AW:That reminded me of when I was working as a faculty member at the University of Toronto, especially if I was teaching in a big auditorium and I had a huge PowerPoint slide in the middle of the stage and I would kind of go from one side to the other and it actually felt really good to move my body on stage instead of standing there and preaching, right? AM: Yes, and it goes back to that Amy Cuddy stuff that it looks more energized, it looks more dynamic because it is. AW:So in addition to making you look more energized is gonna make you feel more energized. AM: Yes, make you feel more empowered. So that’s a good thing. AW:So when you were talking about the person who maybe isn’t presenting with confidence, and they’re standing behind the podium, and they’re kind of hugging the podium, but they have to, and they’re working on things kind of one thing at a time, it reminded me of another question that I had for you with regards to PowerPoint slides. And that is, if you’re in a technical presentation, I’m thinking back to your finance guy that you were consulting to. And there’s a slide with data on it that they have to read, or if, for example, it’s a legal presentation, and there’s something that a paragraph that the audience needs to read, how do you choreograph that? Do you read it to them? AM: So I would say it depends. Depends on what it is, if it’s a quote, I would say always read it. But just to take a step back, that what you do. You want to think about what you’re saying with those slides, especially technical data driven slides. So you make the point first, then display the visual. It’s about exercising control over the audience’s focus. Because the minute you display words on the screen, the listeners are going to stop listening to you. They’re going to just be reading that and nobody can read and listen at the same time, right? AW:That’s what I keep hearing and reading. AM: Yes. So what I would say is, if you have, let’s go to finance for a second. If you have charts and graphs and numbers, tell us what we need to know. Then display that visual. And give us a moment to look at the visual when you’re not speaking. In terms of controlling listeners focus, if you’re silent in the case of presenting data, turn and look at the slide. Because if you turn and look at the slide, again, it controls focus, it tells your listeners This is where you look now. So again, you’re giving yourself that control and that agency in terms of what to read and what not to read. I would say just use your judgment, your intuition. If it’s a big long legal paragraph, maybe that’s something that you want your listeners to read. Because what’s the point of you reading it out loud to them? I would say, the longer the text, the less likely you would want to read it. AW:That’s a good rule. AM: Probably, again, though. If you’re asking your listeners to read something, turn, look at the screen and read it, you know, at your slowest, natural reading pace, to make sure that you’re not cutting them off.You’re giving them the time they need to read it. So I would say control the focus. AW:You’re reminding me now some presentations that I’ve witnessed, where I guess I’m observing as an audience member, but also at a meta level because of what I do. And I see the speakers do that. And they look at the screen and I say, oh, now they’re trying to get us to look at the screen,but it’s effective and the best presenters are actually the ones that I can tell they’re actually reading it, AM: Right. Mm hmm.Yes, it’s extremely frustrating if a slide gets displayed, and there’s not enough time to read it. AW:Presumably, it was so important that you had to have it there, right? back to your point from the very beginning. AM: Yes, it’s there. It’s got to be there for a reason. So I would say yes, the reason to read it along with your listeners, again, it goes back to this idea of the adrenaline that’s going through us when we’re speaking. You’ve got that adrenaline going, you’re not perceiving time accurate. So you want to take that step to read it to just sort of ensure they’ve had enough time to read it and now I can move on. AW:And to your point about breathing I just thought of this … you can maybe move the mic away from your mouth and do some deep belly breathing while it’s happening and re energize yourself. AM: Sure. Yes. It’s a moment where the pressures off you.  That reminded me of film acting. It’s like that with acting. There’s a close up of you. So the camera is right in your face and the pressures on and the close up. Anytime you’re not talking, just breathe. Yes. And I said why? And they said well, because if the other guys talking, the camera’s going to be on them. They’re not going to use that shot anyway. So you kind of go Oh, right. Yes. But I thought that was such an amazing performance strategy. What are those moments where I’m allowed to recover? You know, and so I think what you’re saying is excellent. Yes. If you’re turning and reading it, just take a moment to also check in breathe, re energize, and recover. AW:So the listeners don’t know this. But every time Andrew speaks, I’m like, (heavy breathing).  Just kidding, not at all. Maybe I should have, actually. AM: She’s doing yoga. Right here in the room while I’m talking. AW:Yes, yes. I was in Downward Dog over there! All right, before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, is there anything else you want to share with the listeners about providing a compelling message? AM: I would say, you know, we’ve talked a lot about passion. We’ve talked about projecting strength and warmth and how to be confident when you’re up there. But again, so much of this word comes to the message that you’re sharing that if you take that time to really structure are a cohesive messagereally give your listeners meaning and give them a reason that they should keep listening. I can think of an example actually I worked with a cannabis company. They do cannabis edibles. So that was fascinating to work on as well, because that industry is like the Wild West. So they were – This is a while ago now – they were going in for an investor pitch. And I was asked to come in and help them rehearse this pitch. And so I listened as they talked a little bit about their company. They talked about how they were founded, they talked about what they were going to do with the money that they were raising, you know, the facility they wanted to build. They talked about the partners who are helping them design the edibles, you know, the part of the food partners, and after a little while I said, I think the problem here is we don’t have a very clear main message. I started to ask them some questions like, what are your hopes and dreams for this company? You know, beyond making 100 million dollars, what are you really trying to achieve with this and what are you passionate about and all that sort of stuff, and after digging around there, they say Do you know we like to say that we’re creating a product that we would feel comfortable serving to our friends after dinner party? And I said, that’s your main message. You’re telling me about your facility that you want to build? Why do you need to build that facility? Because you’re creating a product for your friends. So you need to oversee all aspects of production. You’re telling me about the food partners that you’re using? Why are you using those brands? Because they’re brands that you personally engage with, that you trust and that you love? And nothing less than that will do for your friends. AW:Brilliant. AM:  Why do you need this scientist who controls the dosing? Because you want to be responsible because you’re creating a product for your friends. So when you find that message, and you take the time to connect everything to it, it just really makes it clear for your listeners. This is what I’m supposed to take away from this. And in making it clear, it makes it compelling, right, as I said earlier, we crave meaning. So when you give your listeners that meaning, this means a product that is appropriate for our friends, AW:as you’re describing that, my head, as you can see is nodding. And I’m imagining the investors doing the same thing around the table. And it’s almost like, not only do you have a focused message, there are one main point at the apex of your triangle. But you’re also in a way telling your story because I’m imagining you, in several months sitting with your friends around the table after a dinner party and sharing this product with them. So I feel like you’ve you’ve checked all the boxes there. And as I’m nodding my head, I’m imagining the investors who are the audience to that message doing the same thing. AM: Yes, what it comes down to in terms of the storytelling. Again, it’s that hero goal conflict, that the hero in that situation is the company and that might sound arrogant, but as long as your goal is to help other people, we are creating something that will really be great for people. AW:as long as the goal isn’t self serving, right? AM: Yes. Once you have that hero with the goal and all of the struggles and against struggles don’t need to be on then we went bankrupt. The struggles are, how can we oversee production? How can we make sure that the dosage is correct? How can we make these tastes excellent. When we feel those struggles that creates suspense, and again, that hero goal struggle framework, it gives us a reason to care. We just think ah, yes, and that’s what that meaning does. It causes us to lean and it causes us to feel emotionally invested in the message. AW:That’s a great example. All right. Okay, we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? AM: I am. AW:Okay. First question. What are your pet peeves? AM: Bad listening. I hate when people interrupt ,when they lose focus as you’re talking. And I don’t mean the occasional interjections. I mean, like they steamroll over what you’re saying with a completely different point. That’s a huge pet peeve of mine. I don’t like that. AW:Second question. What type of learner Are you are you visual auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? AM: Definitely auditory. I when I have a problem, or even just when I’m thinking I, I can’t tell you the number of times that I get busted by people in public talking to myself AW:really? AM:  all the time. It’s the way that I sort through my ideas. I just talk as though I’m having a conversation, I just speak to myself. And sometimes I’ve been moving my mouth and people kind of go, are you okay? And I say, I’m just saying… AW: you should just keep earbuds in your ears all the time. Then someone will think that you’re in a conversation. AM: That’s funny. And part of the problem too, with being an auditory learner and doing what I do. Sometimes I have a tendency to say too much, because it’s, I want to make sure that I have created all of the logical links in my idea. And sometimes listeners don’t need that. So I sometimes have that struggle where people go, yes, I get it. I get it. AW:I have some advice for you. AM: Yes? AW: please just start a podcast. AM: Oh, I bet. AW:That’s funny. Okay. Well, I think it’s funny. Good job, Andrea. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? AM: Both, and as I get older, more and more introverted. And I think, you know, there’s a lot of people who wouldn’t believe that about me. AW:Yes. AM: I think you realize that as you, you know, put a few years on to your to your CV, you realize that being having both is healthy, but I definitely sometimes need to be on my own to regroup and gather my energy. And when I’m doing something like this podcast or if I’m being interviewed or if I’m leading a workshop, or I’m giving a presentation, I really have to focus on working my energy up, and not in a way that’s like where it’s like drudgery. I mean, I love having the energy of performance. But if I don’t work the energy up that way I can tilt into self consciousness. AW:Really? AM: Yes, people sometimes find a find that hard to believe. But I have that mix of introvert and extrovert for sure. AW:Oh, I thought you were gonna say because you’re such an extrovert and you’re so energized that you then feel like you don’t need to act that way. But maybe you just really are right in the middle. You’re an ambivert which by the way, most of us are. I asked the question as an either or more to be compelling. AM: An ambivert. I’ve never heard that. That’s interesting. AW:Yes, most people are right in the middle. Yes. Number four: communication preference for personal conversations. What’s your go to communication medium? AM: Texting. Actually, I love, I enjoy texting and for a couple of different things, it’s very efficient. I also find it really fun. And maybe I shouldn’t admit this as a communications coach, but I find emojis hilariously fun. AW:Me too! AM: You can be irreverent. So I like texting. I also like face to face. AW:do you use bitmoji? AM:  Yes, yes, yes. AW:And memes? AM: Yes, memes are a newish thing for me – the last six months. AW:It’s a little bit addictive. AM: Yes. Bitmogis. I’m all over. I love it. AW:Question number five. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? AM: Yes. It’s called Ask Ronna. And it is a very, very funny, funny podcast. It’s two people, Rhonda Glickman, and Brian Safi, as they would tell their listeners, they’re experts on nothing. They’re have no credentials, but they’re just smart, fun people. And people write in and they give advice. And I find their advice –  it goes from being funny to being very poignant and very sympathetic, which I think is a fascinating. So that that’s a podcast that I’m a big fan of. AW:I actually have heard of it. I think I may have seen it on iTunes as a recommended one. AM: Oh, okay. Yes. AW:Thank you so much, Andrew, for sharing your expertise and your time to help us get out there presenting with confidence. I can tell you, I learned a lot! I’m sure the listeners did as well. So thank you so much. AM: Well, thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed it.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]   ***When referencing resources and products, Talk About Talk sometimes uses affiliate links. 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Do you know how to prepare and deliver a compelling presentation? Guest expert Andrew Musselman shares presenters’ most common mistakes, what to do if you think you’re losing your audience, and how to successfully incorporate video clips, humour, and storytelling into your talk.   REFERENCES & LINKS  (Note this is episode 1of2 on COMPELLING PRESENTATIONS.  Episode #48 will include a summary of both episodes.) Andrew Musselman  LinkedIn– https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-musselman-06595316a/ Fluency– https://www.learnfluency.com/ Video- “BOOST YOUR VIRTUAL COMMUNICATION GAME” – https://vimeo.com/398870402 Books & Resources Talk Like Ted by Carmine Gallo – https://amzn.to/38eNkN3 Compelling People: The Hidden Qualities That Make Us Influential by John Neffinger & Matthew Kohut – https://amzn.to/38b6CCE Slide-ology by Nancy Duarte – https://amzn.to/3cciurv Gravitas: Communicate with Confidence, Influence and Authority by Caroline Goyder –https://amzn.to/2Vxdpnu Amy Cuddy –https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_may_shape_who_you_are  Bryan Stevenson – https://www.ted.com/talks/bryan_stevenson_we_need_to_talk_about_an_injustice Brené Brown –https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_the_power_of_vulnerability Phil Davison, “epic speech for treasurer”- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfbBCYQm-4 Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ?Andrea’s email– [email protected] ?Free Coachingvia the Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ?Website– https://talkabouttalk.com ?Subscribe to the Podcast–https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ?Private Facebook group-https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki:Thank you very much, Andrew, for joining us here today to talk about how to give a compelling presentation. Andrew Musselman: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. AW:I want to start with a question about the best, most compelling presentation that you’ve ever seen. Can you share with me and the listeners – What’s the most compelling presentation you’ve ever witnessed? AM: Amy Cuddy, I think of Bryan Stevenson, and Brene Brown, all of whom were talking about subjects that interested me and that resonate with me. So that helps, but I think the main ingredient that makes those presentations stand out with their listeners is passion. There’s a great book, actually, Carmine Gallo wrote this book called Talk Like Tedwherehe looks at the highest viewed TED Talks, and he says – here’s why they work. Here’s the skills that these people are employing. And his first chapter is all about passion. And he says, you know, that is the ingredient what you’re really sharing with your listeners. The reason that you’re giving a presentation, as opposed to just emailing it to people, is you’re sharing your connection to it. We want to see how it lives in you.And so that’s what made those presentations in particular really stand out. In the case of Amy Cuddy and Brene Brown as well, they weren’t afraid to show their emotion that they were speaking about something that they had a deep connection to, which I find so compelling as a viewer as a listener. AW:It’s hard to actually talk about Brene Brown without using the word vulnerable, but she does make herself vulnerable on stage doesn’t she? AM: Yeah. And I think you know, authenticityis a big word, right? It’s a bit of a buzzword. I mean, I use it myself. I don’t – I’m not anti the word authenticity, but it’s something that you want to see in presentations. You want to see people being authentic, but that takes a lot of courage, because it does make you vulnerable if you’re revealing a part of yourself. And I think really great presentations, no matter what the topic, even if it’s a business presentation, those compelling presentations do show the listeners that you know how the speaker relates to it, how the speaker connects to the material. It’s so important I think. So passion and authenticity. AW:I thought you were gonna say storytelling AM: storytelling as well. I’m a big, big, big fan of storytelling. AW:I know you are. That’s why I say that! AM: I think you know, with storytelling, also cohesiveness. We’ll start there, because the thing about a lot of presentations is, presentations that don’t go so well, are presentations that I find lack an overarching message. So presentations that don’t have that clear message. What above all else do I want my listeners to take away from this? What’s the one ideain my training when I work with clients, I call that the main message. Not an original title. But that one key idea. So that’s what I look for. And then in terms of storytelling with any presentation that incorporates storytelling is going to connect with the listeners on a much more personal level. One of the best quotes I’ve ever heard about storytelling. Somebody said, it’s like a Trojan horse for your point of view. AW:Oh, Brilliant. AM: Yeah. AW:I love the metaphor. AM: You know, it sneaks up on your listeners because you are conveying information in a way that connects with them emotionally. And I think that for me is where the storytelling piece really comes into play. So yes, storytelling is it is a big one. But passion, I think is the is the main one. AW:It’s like the baseline, I guess, right? Don’t bother telling a story unless you’re passionate, right? AM: What I think people discount a lot is how much time it takes to write something well, and the first step in giving any presentation is figuring out what you’re going to say. That process that’s that Ernest Hemingway quote about writing. He says, you know, writing is easy. All you have to do is sit down at the typewriter and bleed.And you know, it’s that sort of thing have to sit down and really figure out – what is my message? What am I saying? really figuring out first, what’s a message that I can get behind? what’s the message that I care about? And once you have that, then I think it’s much easier to get to the passion and to be telling a compelling story. AW:So we before we move on to getting into how to create this (how to bleed!) can you share with us one of the most epic failsthat you’ve witnessed? AM: To me, what sets a presentation up as a failure is when there’s just there’s no clear message. I think of two presentations when I think of epic fails. And both of them did the same thing. Funnily enough, they both did a very specific thing, which is they give us a chronology of their life. So they said, You know, I started, this is where I’m from. And then I went here, and then I went to this school, and then I got this job. And as a listener, you’re sitting there thinking, why are you telling me? AW: Yeah, I don’t care. AM: Exactly. And I don’t understand what I am supposed to take from all of this information. AW:Sorry to interrupt, but one of the things that I’ve learned from podcasting that I’ve heard is a “do not do ,”is do not ask your guests share their biography with the listeners, because the listeners don’t even know why they’re listening! AM: Yeah, same thing, right. I think that’s, I mean, I think it’s absolutely right. We’re all so pressed for time. You know, human beings, we’re lazy listeners, we crave meaning. We want everything to mean something when we’re listening to a speaker, but we don’t want to have to do that work ourselves. And that’s something that you see, it’s a sin that I think you see a lot in presentations: presentations that begin with a simple topic statement. So you say, you know, Hello, my name is Andrew Musselman. And I’m here to talk to you today about breakfast. And the problem of starting with a topic statement is it sets up an expectation with your listeners that they’re going to get a bunch of data, and they’re going to have to make sense of it all.Whereas we want to start with a message you say, I’m going to tell you why breakfast is the most important meal of the day. It’s a very clear baseline of this is what you’re going to get out of my presentation. And when you know that as a listener, it really incentivizes you to keep listening. You say okay, I know what I’m going to get out of this. AW:So you’re queuing them with the question that they’re going to learn the answer to from you. AM: Yeah, there’s that old adage. Have you ever heard this?  Tell them what you’re going to tell them. Then tell them. Then tell them what you just told them. And when you find that message, that main message of yours that should act like a touchstone, I think that you keep coming back to. So in an ideal world throughout the presentation, we should know right away what your main idea is. And throughout the presentation, we should feel like our understanding of that idea is deepening. So that was one big sin that I saw in those in those epic fail presentations was there was just no it was in this case, specifically all biography and no meaning no message to it. AW:No take away. AM: Yes. It’s never taking for granted that they’re going to find you interesting. You know, it’s never taking for granted that they just want to hear you talk for a while. You constantly have to be adding value and think about you know, specifically, again, this my main message now I keep touching back on it. But what is that idea or key takeaway? What’s the big idea that ties all this together? AW:So I want to focus us here on specific context, which is when we are on stage, and we have an audience in real life in front of us, and a screen behind us. It’s probably PowerPoint or whatever it is just for content. This is where we’re focusing. And we’re first going to focus on preparation and the pulling together the content, and then we’ll move into the delivery. So how to deliver the presentation. And my first question is really just about the preparation. And I know from my own experience, when I have lots of time, and when I spend lots of time, it really pays off. But we all have time constraints. So what are some of the most important things that we need to absolutely do to adequately prepare for giving a compelling presentation? AM: I think, you know, what you’re saying completely resonates with me because I always advocate, you know, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. But that’s not always the reality. People don’t have that time always. So I think if you’re under time constraints that my key piece of advice would be just getting very clear on your message, just really know what your idea what your one main idea is, and your three or four supporting ideasthat you want your listeners to take away. And if you get very clear on that, it at least gives you you at least feel anchored in what you’re going to say. Just feel like okay, I know what I want to leave them with. And I also think that’s a great structuring hack to I mean, in terms of saving time, if you just think of that old pyramid principle, one message, three supporting points that come out of that message.And then you just develop point one, develop point two, develop point three, constantly tying back to the message. It’s a great way to structure a cohesive presentation, but it’s also a great way to save some time when you’re structuring your compelling presentation. So that’d be my first advice is just really be clear on your message. I can think of a client in the finance industry that I worked with. And I mean, that was absolutely one of those cases where he got told, okay, you have to deliver a 25 minute pitch tomorrow and the night before he gets the deck sent to him. So we’re working on this deck, just trying to figure out okay, how can you go in there and be and keep your calm and make sure that you present a compelling cohesive case? And we did that very back to basics work of what is the main message here? What is the one idea you want them to leave with? And then what are the three subcategories that develop that idea? And an exercise that we did? I don’t advocate presentations that go slide by slide by slide by slide because I think that can low your listeners into a bit of a sleep. AW:Yeah. Which they’re probably used to in the finance industry. AM: Absolutely. Yes. But I think you know, in this case, this guy got his deck the night before. So there we were having to figure out, okay, how do you speak to this deck? Which in some ways is a backwards workflow, if you ask me, but we you know –  you work with what you got. We looked at each slide with complex financial data on the slide. And our thing was, what’s the main message of this slide? So why is this slide here? What do your listeners need to gain from this slide? Because if you know that, and if you have just that one little sentence written on each slide, at the very least, you avoid just simply reading the details of the slide right, which makes your listener go, why are we here? I can read these myself resend it to me and I’ll do my own time right here that a lot. One other thing I’ll say is reminding yourself to pause. If people are under time constraints, and they have an hour to write the presentation and they may be read through it once they don’t have as much time to repeat and rehearsed and it’s very rare the person who responds to adrenaline by speaking too slowly. Most of us when we’re in front of a crowd, the nerves get going We race through it. So a big thing when you don’t have a lot of time to prepare is just reminding yourself pause, pause, pause in the middle of that compelling presentation. You’re never going to pause as much as you’re worried that you’re pausing, if that makes sense. AW:And there’s so many reasons to do it right? As you’re saying that – I was just working on a podcast about breathing. It helps you relax and it let’s the audience internalize the message. They can read what’s on the slide! AM: right. There’s great advice – she comes from the theater as well. Actually, her name’s Caroline Goyder, and she was a voice coach for years and years and she coached actors,. She coached at the Central School of Speech and Drama. And now she works with corporate clients. The way she articulates what you just said is :in speeches, you speak in the out breath. The in breath is thought. Taking that time to breathe in, it grounds, it centers you. It dissipates the nervous energy, but it also just gives you time to think about what you’re going to say next. And it almost as importantly, if not, more importantly, gives your listeners time to think about what you just said so they can feel a part of it.So they’re not feeling like it’s just a transmission of non-stop information. So yeah, breathing and pausing. hugely important. AW:And if you’re exhaling when you’re speaking, you are literally projecting, right? physically projecting. AM: Yeah, that’s it. That’s a really interesting way of thinking about it. I mean, we’ll talk a little bit about this when we get to the delivery part of it. But I think what is so key in a presentation is feeling like it’s that two way dynamic, you know, feeling like it’s not just, I’m going to dump a whole bunch of data on you. And thanks very much. See you later, but that you’re speaking and at the very least, inviting the listeners to think and to respond. Right? So that you have that two way dynamic, that receiver driven dynamic. AW:So you were talking about the structure of the presentation and the pyramid, which I love. Let’s move into creating slides or maybe I should just say creating the flow of the presentation. Do you have any general suggestions or basic do’s and don’ts?  Number of words on a slide or maybe…? AM:  I can’t remember where I read this, but I did read somewhere that 40 words is the most you should have on a slide. I think that might have been Nancy Duarte,her claim to fame was she designed the PowerPoint for An Inconvenient Truth. She’s kind of the slide guru. AW:That was incredibly visually compelling. AM: Yes. AW:And especially at the time, it was also very novel, the way it was presented. AM: Yes. And I think that’s been a big shift. Since then, I mean, you could credit that presentation as being what caused the shift. But now, you know, you watch TED Talks, or you watch other presentations, there will be those slides. That is it’s an image reinforcing the message that the speaker is saying, so no words at all, just a picture. And I think that’s a great strategy. And there’s all kinds of data that you probably know this a lot better than I do, but a message that is reinforced with a visual, it leads to much greater comprehension and retention. AW:Messages are better internalized through multimedia, right? AM: basically. So In terms of designing the slides, going back to those epic fails, you asked me about both of the presentations I have in mind. They also had troubling visuals. And they were troubling for two reasons. One, the visuals themselves were complicated way too much information on each slide. And number two, way too many slides in general. So I think the big advice that I would have for slides is less is more. AW:okay. AM: Less is more. And I would always advocate, not everyone does this and it’s, you know, it’s okay. Everybody has their different style. I would always advocate get a pen and paper, write your message out first. A lot of people who say, I use PowerPoint to think it’s my it’s the way that I get into a presentation. AW:I’ve heard that actually AM: yes, and the trouble is, if that’s what you’re using it for, you’re going down a dangerous path of – it’s slide by slide by slide and you don’t have that overarching message. You don’t have that story that you’re telling, and that the slides are reinforcing. And that’s the other key thing. You the speaker are the primary vehicle for the information, the slides are there to back you up.So you don’t want to become you know, the human aid to your visuals. You should be making the point and having those visuals backing you up. AW:You get to choose what they see and what they hear and what they don’t see and what they don’t hear. And you don’t have to share everything with them. Right? I mean, less is more is such a – it’s a great piece of advice. AM: When you’re structuring your message, it’s a great piece of advice. When you’re writing out your content, it’s a great piece of advice. When you’re putting your visuals together. Just always, if there’s something you have a suspicion you could cut, cut it. AW:What about incorporating audio and or video clips into a PowerPoint presentation? What do you think about that? AM: I’m a big fan of incorporating audio and video. I would never say you should do it just for the sake of doing, you want to be absolutely clear that this is again – that it’s reinforcing your message.That it’s rising organically from the messageyou’re sharing with your listeners. But if there is a clip that you like, and that you feel really does a good job of either setting up something you want to talk about  or reinforcing something you’ve spoken about, I think it’s a great way to break up the flow of the presentation in a good way, a way to create a bit of nuance that just keeps people interested. When I started up my company, one of the first things that I did, I had to go and speak to this real estate brokerage. A friend of mine, she invited me in, and she said to me, okay, here’s what you’re going to do: start with a video. And I said, Well, I mean, I’m here to talk about speaking. So I feel like I should just speak. And she said, nine times out of 10 if there’s no video content in the presentation, these agents they check out. So I went and I found this video and I started with a video and I was thinking, I’m just doing this to appease this friend of mine. She knows best. And I enjoyed it so much that I have incorporated that video into a lot of other talks. Like when I’m introducing myself and telling people what’s my value proposition as a coach, I often will start with a video. AW:So can I ask you what is in this video clipthat you share? AM: Yeah, it’s a US politician by the name of Phil Davison. And he was running for county treasurer, I think. And it’s him delivering – he launched his campaign. He is so nervous. The passion, the adrenaline just completely consumed him. So he’s pacing around the stage, waving his finger around, pointing at his audience, screaming and shouting, because he’s just trying to convey passion, but it just completely overtakes him. Usually I do it as a fun introduction. AW:so “I’m going to prevent you from doing this”? AM: Yes. A reminder that it’s not just what you say. It’s also how you say it. AW:Love it. So you talked about how incorporating the multimedia elements, the video and the audio, how it needs to be organic and natural. And I, I’m thinking of some presentations that I’ve witnessed where there’s sometimes a comic or a cartoon on one of the first few slides and it’s like, check, they’re trying to be funny, or they’ll try to tell a joke. Do you have any advice about incorporating humorand whether we should? especially if we’re not funny? AM: Yes, this comes up in acting all the time too, because you go out for an audition and the description when you see this in the character description, you know, the character is extremely funny. It’s like a death knell. AW:yeah. AM: I always say stay in your lane. Remember, you’re there to share information and share a message with people. You’re not there simply to entertain them. I wouldn’t advocate ever putting pressure on yourself that you have to be funny in a presentation. I think to that, trusting: if there’s something that you find funny if there’s something that is humorous to you. And again, it doesn’t have to be Chris Rock funny where people are rolling around in the aisles. If there’s something, an anecdote from your family or a pet or something like that, and you find it humorous, chances are people are going to find it humorous as well. AW:Well, this is reminding me of what you said about authenticity. You’re being authentic when you’re sharing your funny story if you find it funny. AM: Yes, and I think there’s a bit of a cliche, but it’s a great icebreaker. It’s a great way to break down the barriers and instill some trust in your listeners because they see as you say, they see a bit of a small piece of your authentic self you are. So I would say incorporate the humor as long as you feel it naturally flows with your presentation. And as long as you genuinely find it funny. Don’t just do it for the sake of doing. AW:Okay, so this is a perfect segue to the storytellingthing. Nowadays, especially and I don’t know what brought this on. But storytelling is such a hot topic and I feel like every presenter is compelled to include at least one story into their presentation? Can you talk about whether it’s necessary and if it is, how to do it? AM: If you have a point that you’re trying to make, and you can illustrate that with a story, then I think, go for it, go for it 10 times out of 10, it’s always going to be more effective telling a story, rather than just giving information. There’s an old saying, connect first, then convince, and that’s what stories do stories connect with listeners on an emotional level first, and when you have listeners, when you’ve touched them emotionally, when you’ve connected with them on that level, then they’re primed and ready to receive information. And they’re primed and ready to see the world the way you want them to see it to see the world through your eyes. AW:You’ve changed them a little bit. AM: Yes. And there’s all kinds of great data as to why, how and why stories are effective. There’s this fascinating research that’s been done and it’s called brain to brain coupling, in which they hooked a bunch of people up to fMRI machines. The person telling the story, and then a bunch of people listening to the story. And the first thing they found was that our brains are much more active when we’re hearing a storyas opposed to when we’re just receiving information. When we’re receiving information that it’s the language processing part of the brain that lights up. But when we’re hearing a story, it’s the language processing part. It’s also the emotional part, right? There’s the sensory part. It’s the motor skills part. There’s the same brain activity as if we were experiencing an event. But the really fascinating thing that they found in this exercise was: watching the brain activity was in the person telling the story, they saw that simultaneously the identical brain activity was happening in the listeners. So you’re creating like a Vulcan-mind-meld with your listeners. Yeah, you are literally getting them to see the world through your eyes and that in that moment, you’re getting them to see the world in the same way. And then there’s also a lot of data around stories produce oxytocin, which is associated with empathy and cooperation, yeah. AW:yeah. I was thinking the word Connect before. you’re connecting with them. AM: absolutely. So there’s two strategies. One, incorporate stories into your presentation. But also when you’re thinking of how to structure a presentation – At its core, a story is a hero in pursuit of a goal in the face of great challenges. That’s it. I mean, it’s a formula that we’ve been using for thousands of years. So we know it works. And the reason it works is we like watching people or hearing about people who are striving for somethingwho are trying to affect change, trying to affect big change – survival or changing the way the world works, in a way. So what you’re doing when you incorporate that element that that structure in your presentation, you’re giving your listeners something that they can root for, you know, you’re saying here’s who we are. This is what we’re really trying to do. This is the change we’re trying to affect or whatever the case may be. And when you get to that level, you give your listeners somebody to root for, or to put it another way, you Give them a reason to care. AW:I was I think rationally convinced the storytelling is the right thing to do. I am 100% convinced now! AM: Yeah, well, good. AW:So, so one of the reasons that we tell stories, as you said, is to connect with them, but also to engage them. If we move on now to the delivering the presentation, one of the, I suppose many things that people are afraid of when they’re delivering, especially a really big important presentation is that they’re just going to lose the audience. And you know, that feeling that maybe most of us have had at some point in our careers when we’re looking out at the audience. We see people picking up their phones, and texting and we see maybe a few people in the back of the room start to wander off, and maybe even chit chatting with each other. They’re definitely not making eye contact with you anymore. What are some of the tactics that we can employ to try to maintain engagement of the audience, assuming that we’ve already structured this presentation right? AM: Well. one of the things you can think of with your delivery is nuance. So just varyinghow you’re speaking, you know, I mean, I’m a big heart on the sleeve guy. It’s a first thing we talked about in this interview was passion, you know, passion, energy conviction, but you can also think about having different levels. You don’t want everything to be up here where you’re, you know, frothing at the mouth and really, where you know, you don’t want everything to be fire and brimstone. You don’t want … AW:right because then that becomes the baseline. AM: Yes, and where do you go from there? Exactly. And anything that lacks nuance, no matter how compelling it is, at the outset, it’ll always lose the audience’s focus, they’ll stop paying attention if it’s all the same thing. So you can think of varying your style, your tone your rhythm, for no other reason than to just keep it interesting. And there are four P’s. This comes from the acting world.   Four Ps that you can think of when it comes to new ones, and that’s pitch, pace, posture and projection. So pitch high or low, you know, you speaking in your normal register, you can say, however, there is an interesting thing, varying the pitch. It’s amazing how many presentations in the professional world have that monotone delivery? Mostly because we’re programmed to think I don’t want to be rude. I don’t want to intrude on anyone. So we think that showing emotion is a little bit taboo. We think it’s unprofessional. AW:I was gonna say people think it’s unprofessional. Yeah. AM: So that’s pitch. Paceis faster, slow, you know, you could slow certain parts down, take longer pauses when you want to emphasize points, your posture, you can literally if you’re a different section of your presentation, you can move to a different part of the stage or just vary the way you’re standing if you’re standing still in one one place, and then projectionis loud and soft. You know, obviously you want to always be heard, but sometimes if you want things to be really compelling, you can you can quiet your voice down. So nuance is a way to really get some of that audience engagement. If things are going really dire, if you’re up there and you feel you know that you’re really losing them, and you want to skip a section or skip ahead, I would caution people against that, because you don’t want to skip ahead in a way where you then lose where you are in your speech and you and you get completely lost in it. But if you’re going to do that, if you’re if you’re feeling like they’re really not with me here, yeah, I need to skip ahead. I need to shut this down, basically. The one thing you should do before you move to the next section, is remind us of what the point was, and remind us of what your message is. AW:So you know, for example, you mean the top level message? AM: Yes. So, for example, you know, if you were giving a speech about the economy, and you were talking, it was, let’s say you were talking to a group of investors, and you’re talking about the current economic climate, your main idea is this is a time to shore up risk. Well, you might have a whole lot of data that backs them up, and you may be feeling that that data is losing them. So you think, Okay, I’m going to skip the rest of the data points and move on to the next section. But before you do that, you need to remind us that so again, because of the current economic climate, this is a time to shore up risk. Really, here’s why I’m telling you all this, and I’m going to skip all of this. AW:Do you tell them what do you tell them that or does it depend? AM: I always whenever you develop one of your main points, the last thing you should do, remind us of the point, tie it to your main message and then move on. AW:But do you tell them about the point that you’re skipping? Do you say I’m going to go ahead now? AM: Well, you know what? I say no, right away. But just the way you said that there.  Hmm. One of the best acting lessons I ever got was a teacher who said, you know, all we want from you on stage is to know that you’re in control.We feel that will go anywhere with you. So if somebody were to say, you know what, I’m going to skip ahead. If we don’t feel like they’re flustered. If we don’t feel like that has crushed them on the inside a little bit. That’s fine. I don’t think you’d need to say it. But if you do say it, keep your confidence, and just roll on. AW:It depends on your tone. Right? AM: Yes. AW:not in an angry way. You’re just saying, based on what I’m seeing here, we should move ahead, not “you people,” shaming them. AM: You know, and actually that that’s a really good point that you make – that by doing that ,what you’re really doing is showing empathy with your listeners that you’re really creating that connection of saying it’s a sort of a servant-leadershipmodel. Hey, I’m here for you. So if we’re not liking this, that’s okay. Let’s move on. AW:You reminded me of some board speeches that I’ve heard where the person who’s giving the presentation is actually doing so just before a meal, just before dinner, or just before lunch? And they’ll say I’m sure you’ve heard this. I know I’m the only thing that’s standing between you and lunch. So I’m going to make this snappy, right? And everyone’s like, Oh, thank you. AM: Yeah, yeah. There’s a book called Compelling People. And one of the things that the author talked about is “getting into the circle.” They say the first thing you need to do with your listeners is get inside their circle, show them that you empathize with them, show them that you understand their point of view, whatever the case may be. But their point is when you do that, when you start with that little bit of a connection with them, then they’re much they’ll trust you. Really that’s what you’re doing – earning their trust. And you’re sort of basically saying, I got you, I’ve got you through this, our interests are aligned. AW:That makes sense. AM: The other thing I’ll say is that you should also trust yourself when it comes to: Am I losing the audience’s focus and attention? One of the things that nerves does to us is it affects our mindset. And we are our own harshest critics. So when we’re up there, our read on that particular situation may not always be accurate. You know, I’m sure we’ve all had moments. I know, I’ve had many moments where I think, oh, that was a disaster. And then somebody comes up and tells you how great it was. I mean, unfortunately, there are less common but times where you think, Hey, that was great. And somebody goes, not so much, right? But I think you know, really trusting in what you preparedis also something I would advocate that that being up there and saying, hey, somebody checked their phone. Maybe it’s not about me, maybe they got a lot going on and they just really need to check their phone right no. Maybe the other 90% of the room is still really with me. So I’m going to trust what I prepared and move through it. You don’t want to be too at the whim of the audience in that respect. You want to be the one who’s in control. And so I think that’s another piece of it is trusting what you’ve prepared and trusting that it’s resonate. AW:It’s a real fine balance, right? being empathetic and getting into their circle, but then also being in control of what’s going on. AM: hmm. It is. And it that makes me think, and I want to see if I can answer that because it’s a real fine balance. You know, it’s a little bit like the humor aspect to that you mentioned. If something’s funny to you, trust that it’s going to be funny to your listeners. If you’ve done that work and structured something that you think this is a valuable message and these are ideas that I really want to share with them. Then trust that this is going to land with them. You know, we’re not usually that poor at our gauging of what people will and won’t find interesting. If it’s interesting to you, it’s probably going to be interesting to somebody else. And another thing that I can say about keeping your audience engaged and the biggest thing, but something that we should all remind ourselves is to be conversational, when we’re giving a presentation. What that really means is creating that two way dynamic where you’re making the listeners feel like they’re a part of what you’re saying. The two big ways you can do that are pausing, and eye contact, you know, eye contact, to show them your personality, show them that you’re connected to them, but also to show them that you’re checking in with them, that if you deliver an idea, you’re taking that pause to let them think about it. AW:You care about their response. AM: Yes, exactly. Right. There’s a tactic in the book that I mentioned before Compelling Peoplewhere they say, when you smile at people. It encourages them to smile back. AW: mirroring. And nodding is the same way. AM: That’s right. AW:So we’re both sitting here nodding and smiling at each other! AM: But there’s worse things than to have a room full of people smiling and nodding, when you’re up there delivering a presentation. Absolutely. So if you can find that pausing and that eye contact, marry that with a smile. You’re just really encouraging the listeners to be with you. You’re creating that two way dynamic. AW:And that reminds me, I’ve heard this, and I heard this advice, actually, years ago, decades ago, find the person in the room that smiles and nods at you. It may be a nervous tic, but just appreciate them and look at them whenever you need them. AM: Right. I was giving a workshop the other day and there was somebody in the in the workshop who you know (and this is so common), has a pretty debilitating fear of this stuff – of speaking in front of people. And she said, Every time I present, I pick one or two allies in the room, and I tell them beforehand, I’m going to be looking at you the entire time. And then she even will sometimes choreograph where they sit so she says you sit over here and you sit over here. AW:smart. AM: She said to me, what do you think about that? And I said, I think it’s great. Yeah, anything that helps, I mean, that future version of yourself that has to stand up in front of people and give a presentation. That’s the person who has the difficult job. So anything that makes that person’s job easier, go for it. AW:So you were talking about creating a feeling of almost having a conversation with the audience and doing that by pausing and creating eye contact? What about encouraging explicit interaction? so encouraging questions,and I’m assuming interaction is a good thing, but why do some presenters say please hold your questions to the end? I always wonder about that. AM: I wonder about that, too. Okay. I mean, I think it depends on the format. You know, if you’re giving a presentation that is a little bit more formal, you know, you’re in front of a couple of hundred people. That’s probably a presentation where you want to speak for your 15 or 20 minutes and then field questions after having said that, I still don’t think it’s necessary to say hold your questions to me. AW:It sounds so administrative almost. AM: it’s like you’re admonishing the audience right off the top. AW:So yeah, I think that’s what bothered me about it, actually, because I understand in some contexts, you’re right. If you’re in an auditorium, if you’re giving a lecture at a university, and it is actually a lecture format, and then there’s a Q&A, people know that. And if someone puts their hand up, you can say, I would love to answer your question, but I’ve just got three more minutes, and then you’ll be the first person. And then, everybody knows you’re paying attention to them. AM: Actually, that’s great, I mean, I hadn’t thought of doing that. But if somebody doesn’t know that they shouldn’t ask Qs, which I’m with you, that’s very rare. People usually get the gist of it. Oh, this is not interactive. But yeah, same thing. Keep the control. You’re up there, you see it. Don’t ignore that the person’s hand has gone up, but just politely say, No, I think we’ll wait. Regardless of the format. One way you can encourage interaction is by asking for it. I know that sounds so basic.  But I liked that tactic, provided again, that it works with your message and that doesn’t feel forced. You could also ask your audience a question. Ask them to picture something or imagine something. Take a poll with a show of hands. That kind of thing. AW:I like that, you know, it gets them engaged, gets them feeling like they’re part of it. While you’re still keeping the control. You’re not letting them talk about whatever they want to talk about. You just answered the next question that I was going to ask you, which is what happens if you are encouraging people to ask questions, and they don’t. And I think what I’m hearing is, you could change it to be a more specific question. Like, how many of you think -whatever – motivating people to raise their hands? AM: And yeah, I think that’s a great one.  But full disclosure. I’ve never advocated that until just now. But I think it is a great Q&A strategy that maybe the speaker comes prepared with some questions. You know, obviously you want to address questions that are there, but if there aren’t questions, you can always ask questions that are variation on the theme. What did you take from that?You know, you don’t want to obviously say what do you think of my presentation? Right? Really what you’re saying is, look, this was the idea. How does that idea resonate with you? or What did you think about this statistic when I gave it or — you can kind of steer that interaction. And there’s also, if you’re talking about a  Q&A at the end, I mean, if nobody asks a question, you can also just move on, and say, thanks very much. That’s it. AW:Yeah. I’ve seen that too. And sometimes it’s, it’s, I think, some speakers who asked if there’s any questions, and the answer is basically no, there aren’t and they can skillfully say, Well, I guess that went well. Then they’re just saying, Okay, everyone got it. Great. Yeah. AM: That’s a great tactic. AW:Yeah, that’s excellent. If you can deliver it without sounding arrogant. So what are some of the most common mistakes that speakers make when they’re on stage? AM: I think again, I’m going to talk about pausing. Conversational styleis always the first thing I’ve worked on with clients whether I’m doing private coaching or in a group or workshop, because when we’re up there, it is so difficult to remember to pause because our adrenaline is coursing through us and our time perception is off. So we think we’ve paused but we haven’t really paused. If I were to name those two sins, it’s running your thoughts together. So where you don’t give your listeners time to think about what you’ve said, it’s also talking while thinking, – you’re just kind of on autopilot, rambling through your slides. And that is what sets up for the listeners to think,what am I doing here? AW:Yeah, I don’t need to be here. I could be reading something instead. AM: Right. Why don’t you just email me this and I’ll do this on my own time? So that’s a big sin. I think another sin there’s in terms of how we’re perceived, it all comes back to our most primal survival instincts. You know, we take the non verbal data that we get from people, and we use it to put people into one of four categories. We see them as potential friendpotential threat, potential mate, or we’re indifferentto them. AM: AW:I hadn’t heard that. That’s great. I love these frameworks. AM: Yeah. So you take those four and you say, Okay, well, there’s only one category when I’m up in front of people that I want to get myself into. And that’s potential friend. And even that can create a bit of a mindset shift for some speakers, because we often put this pressure on ourselves, I’ve got to be impressive. No, you’ve got to be relatable. AW:Yeah, that’d be trustworthy? AM: And there’s two criteria that we evaluate people on to put them into those categories. The first one is strength.And that probably doesn’t come as a surprise to many people. Because if you say, what do you think makes somebody a good public speaker? Nine times out of 10, the answer you’ll get immediately is confidence.And we’re going to get into that. So, confidence that’s the strength, peace, confidence and capability. The other criteria that we evaluate people on is warmth.And we actually again, thinking about our primal survival instincts, we evaluate warmth. First, we put more emphasis on warmth. If you think about it, somebody who is projecting a lot of strength and no warmth, that’s a person that can actually be quite dangerous. And that can represent a threat to us. So you want to think about projecting both strength and warmth.And the interesting thing is when you think about warmth, it conjures up kind of a Mr. Rogers type of image you think, you know, gentle and soft and kind, and that’s part of it. But warmth is also energy. Warmth is passion, warmth, is dedication, warmth is commitment,. I’s anything that makes you listen. I really care about what I’m saying. And that leads me in a very roundabout way to another big sin that I see. A big kind of mistake that you see in presentations is people are afraid to reveal that connection to their material. They think that if they show any emotion at all, it’s unprofessional. AW:Really. AM: Yes. And I think people want to just be factual and professional. And you know, you don’t want to be delivering the speech from the movie Braveheart, but having a bit of I care about this, and letting your listeners know that it means something to you. I mean, if you want to have your listeners be engaged, the first step is you have to be engaged. Right? So that has to do with your voice. It has to do with your energy or your focus, all of that. All of that I think is tremendously important. AW:I really like that framework. I feel like you’ve got the passion, you’ve got the authenticity, you’ve got your cohesive message, before you start actually writing it out. You want to remind yourself, you are the friend and you are the friend because you have strength and you have warmth. In other words, I’m going to say the strength is capability or knowledge or expertise, right? AM: Yes. AW:And then the warmth is the positive affect. And speaking as a psychologist, right? AM: yeah. And you know, if you think you’re absolutely right, if you think back to when we were cave people, the warmthis: I mean you no harm, and the strengthis: I can be a benefit to you.Those are people we want to welcome into our circle. Somebody who has high warmth and not a lot strength. That’s somebody you might think, well, they don’t mean any threat, but I’ll be indifferent to that person that I don’t need them in my circle. There’s actually I mean, it’s pretty fascinating. There’s corresponding emotionsthat they pinpoint with this to high strength, low warmth, that instills fear or envy. And high warm flow strength instills pity. The one that I found really surprising was low strength, low warmth. Again that I would think that was pity but in actual fact, it’s contempt. It’s awful to think of, you know, you think, those poor people, but no, no, the physiological emotional response that we have is contempt. AW:disdain? AM: And people who are high strength, high warmth, they project — they say– admiration. I say trustworthinessbecause I think the key to being persuasive is winning your listeners trust. So if you show them, I mean you no harm, and I can be a benefit to you. You’ve got the trust right away. AW:Yeah, I like your trustworthiness. Yeah, that’s good. Thank you… So you said that nine out of 10 people are really concerned about their confidence. And I have to tell you that I’ve asked many of my friends and colleagues, what to ask you about how to give a compelling presentation and 100% of them, the first thing that they said was, how to exude confidence. So actually how to feel confident, but then also how to demonstrate confidence. Do you have any pointers for the listeners on that? AM: I do.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2812-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2812 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2812 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2812-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2812-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2812-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2812-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2812-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2812 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2812 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2812 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #47 HOW TO DELIVER A COMPELLING PRESENTATION with Andrew Musselman appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How about some biohacking tips to boost your immunity and to fight off viruses like Covid-19? Biohacker Oksana Andreiuk (M.Biotech) shares her advice on boosting your immunity through specific biohacks associated with sleep, nutrition and supplements, exercise, stress management, taking a cold shower, and intermittent fasting. Biohacking is modifying your internal and external environments to take better control of your own biology. In this time of social distancing, Talk About Talk advocates physical distancing and being creative and proactive about maintaining our ever-important social connections. Stay healthy everyone!   REFERENCES & LINKS Oksana Andreiuk, M.Biotech Oksana Andreiuk, onstage sharing biohacking tips Canadian Biohacker website – https://canadianbiohacker.com/ LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/oandreiuk/ Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/canadianbiohacker/ Twitter- https://twitter.com/CDNBiohacker Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/CanadianBiohacker/ YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR6KunOu-T5XANwGbaaNlHQ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ? Andrea’s email – [email protected] ? Free Communication Coaching via the Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ? Website – https://talkabouttalk.com ? Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ? Private Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Other References     Blue Zones book BOOK: “The Blue Zones of Happiness” by Dan Buettner – https://amzn.to/2xcexTG PODCASTS: “Positive Self-Talk and the 3Es of Wellness” with master wellness coach Tosca Reno – https://talkabouttalk.com/27-positive-self-talk-with-tosca-reno/ “The Drive” with Dr. Peter Attia – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/id1400828889?mt=2 Tosca Reno – The 3s of Wellness                INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT (Transcribed by https://otter.ai) Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise today. Oksana. Oksana Andreiuk: Oh, this is so great. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited for our conversation. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Oksana Andreiuk AW: Me too. So I have to start by asking you, what is a biohacker? OA: Love that question. So what comes to mind often, people think, Oh, you know, are you inserting chips into your body? Or it sounds scary or very technical. But it’s not at all. A bio hacker is anyone who’s trying to optimize their mental and physical health performance. And so biohacking is a term can be defined as the art and science of modifying your internal and external environments to take better control of your own biology. And what I find exciting is that we now have the technology available to us and all the tools to quantify and monitor our biomarkers. But at the at the root of it, biohacking is really getting the fundamentals right and optimizing how you feel every day. AW: I know from your biography that you’ve made this your life work you are highly educated in the field of biotechnology and you have the Canadian bio hacker meetup group. So why did you personally decide to become a bio hacker? OA: I’ve always been into biotech and how can we use our technology to optimize our biology and how we feel and I’ve always had a focus on healthcare. You know, when I was in university, I never thought that I would get into biohacking or optimizing health to this extent, what really sparked my interest in it is discovering the field of medicine related to longevity science, which looks at treating aging as a root cause of chronic diseases. And you know, when I was in university that wasn’t really talked about there was genetics, there’s biotechnology, and that was my stream. I was very interested in that. But when I discovered that, hey, there are all these scientists that are looking at treating aging as a disease. You don’t really hear about that because people just kind of assume that Oh, You know, aging is a natural is a natural process, and we’re all going to go through it. But the truth is, is that in 2013, we actually characterize what the cellular processes were of aging. So other cellular level, we now know what happens with the aging processes. And so there are all these companies that are working on aging solutions on reversing or slowing down the aging process. And I thought, you know, if it’s gonna take them about 10 years or so to get something truly viable on the market, but I can start taking or using whether it’s a therapeutic or another solution, what can I do right now to optimize my own biology in the state of my health so that I’m at that prime health level when I get to that longevity solution, and so that opened my eyes to this whole field and area of biohacking. But as I mentioned, you know, at the root of it, it’s just about optimizing your mental and physical health performance. And so it doesn’t need to be something extreme or scary or something that takes up all a lot of time it’s being mindful of your daily habits and how you’re taking care of your health on a more preventive level. AW: when you were defining biohacking, I was thinking that a lot of athletes are probably biohacking. Right? So they’re doing everything they can to… OA:  Absolutely. Yeah, athletes are a great example of biohacking. And really anyone you know, if you’re, if you’re mindful about your nutrition and exercise and how you’re sleeping like you’re already biohacking, I think most of us are actually biohacking without realizing it. AW: So I have a question for you then what is your main goal as a bio hacker? OA: I mean, I’m hoping to live to at least 150 years, there are some exciting developments in the fields of longevity science that are actually looking to reprogram cells using epigenetics that will essentially reverse our age back to about 20 years at any point that we want, so potentially 150 years is very conservative. AW: That’s amazing than I have not even come close to hitting midlife. OA: That’s why this is gonna go on who knows, you know all the things that we want you to be able to fit into our lifespan. AW: Okay, so bring it on, tell me what some of the main things are that I can do to optimize, I guess, maximize my lifespan and optimize my health. OA: So number one, I always say sleep. It’s the number one thing that anyone can do and we’re living in a sleep deprived generation and time. Over the past hundred years, we’ve actually reduced our average night’s sleep by about 15 to 20%. So imagine that 100 years ago, people were getting on average two hours more of sleep every night than they do now. That’s huge. You know, it’s it seems like such a luxury to be thinking, Oh, you know, someone could be averaging nine hours of sleep a night. That seems crazy. AW: So what’s happening inside our body that is so important when we’re sleeping? Why? Why would I choose to spend more of my time on this planet sleeping? OA: Sleep affects every single bodily system, your cardiovascular health, your metabolism, your ability and stamina to exercise that day, which actually has a feedback loop because if you exercise you sleep better, and if you sleep better, you have more energy to exercise and affect our hunger levels as well. If you’re sleep deprived, your body is going to want to store more energy. And so you’re more prone to overeating as well. That affects your mental health, your emotional control how you communicate, so you know anything to do with the brain. There is not one system in your body that doesn’t benefit from more sleep, or doesn’t get negatively impacted by a lack of sleep, essentially. So sleep is number one for longevity, I would say. AW: So you I didn’t want to interrupt you there. But you mentioned one of my magic words communicate you said so sleep affects how you communicate, can you share with us how sleep affects our interactions and social lives? OA: For sure, yeah. So with sleep, it affects your emotional control, right? How you respond to those around you, you may be you know, a little bit more cross have a shorter fuse, but also being able to read other people’s emotions. So your emotional intelligence gets affected with your ability to scan the room or you know, read the person you’re speaking to and what they’re feeling. It also affects how people interact with you as well. So there was a study done with people seeing faces of sleep deprived individuals, and they were asked to rank them, so sleep deprived to not sleep deprived, and those who were sleep deprived in their picture, our brains are actually able to register someone who is a little bit sleep deprived. And what that tells us is, we don’t really want to communicate with those people. We don’t want to interact with them. It tells our brain to kind of avoid them or you know, maybe that person is sick, or something’s not right with them. And so it’s very-  it’s such a wild concept. I found it fascinating because it’s not something that happens at a conscious level. It’s very subconscious. It’s those micro signals that our brain is just picking up automatically. You know, you, it’s hard to just kind of pinpoint, oh yeah, that person got four hours of sleep per night for sure. But our brain is able to do this. So when you’re sleep deprived, it’s not only that you are communication with others is affected, but how other people perceive you and how much they want to interact with you as well. AW: Amazing, amazing. So I want to get into that both I guess the quantity so the number of hours that we should be striving for and as well as the quality of sleep you and I spoke a little bit offline about that when we met you were talking about how important it is to ensure you have quality sleep. Before we get into that nitty gritty I just want to mention the elephant in the room and that is the corona virus and Covid-19 and based on your biohacking. I’m sure you have some very strong and well informed opinions. about things that we should be doing and maybe even things that we should not be doing. OA: For sure. Yeah. So with any type of virus we’re always going to go through these winter seasons where a lot of people are getting sick or picking things up, the best thing is keep your immune system as much as you can. And so number one, again, I go back to sleep. So with sleep, even one night of four hours of sleep, reduces your immune system function by up to 70% for the next day. AW: Wow. thats huge. OA: and for someone who is gets about five hours of sleep per night, for the previous week, they’re about at a 50 50% risk of contracting the common cold if they’re exposed to it, versus someone who has been getting an average of eight hours of sleep. They have about an 18% risk if they’re exposed to the virus. So that’s huge, right? Like, do you want to be the person Your expose, your body has a 5050 chance of contracting the virus or do you want it to be at around 18%? AW: Anytime that sounds compelling, but right now it’s imperative. Right? OA: Exactly, exactly. And I know it’s hard. But hopefully now with a lot of people working remotely to a with that reduces the amount of hours you’re spending and commuting. Maybe you can buy a little bit of more sleep time, fingers crossed. So sleep is absolutely imperative. And then nutrition, of course, so watching what type of foods you’re eating, so less processed food, avoid sugar, focus on whole foods that are nutritious to your body, about something about 16 to up to 70% of our immune system comes from our gut health. And so supporting our gut with proper nutrition is just so important for immune function as well. AW: Can you describe what a healthy gut is? I mean, you just you just said less sugar less processed foods. OA: Yeah, so I mean, everyone’s microbial or gut health looks a little bit different, their profile will be a little bit different. But avoiding sugars is a big one for sure. AW:  Okay, so refined sugars. And then also, I guess any kind of simple carbohydrates, just keep them to a minimum. OA: Yes, especially closer to sleep. So avoid eating about three hours before bedtime, that will be optimal. If you do then at least avoid simple carbs and sugars. Focus more on complex carbs. So an example of a simpler carb would be bread versus a sweet potato would be a more complex card. AW: So you said Try not to eat within three hours of going to bed. OA: Yes. So you want to be focusing on recovery while you’re sleeping. So our bodies are constantly in either state of growth or repair. And so when we’re putting nutrients in our bodies, or it signals to our bodies that Okay, it’s time for growth, you know, you’re metabolizing you’re utilizing those nutrients, your body’s not really focusing on repair so much and so Especially when you’re sleeping, that is such a critical time of recovery for like full body regeneration when you’re sleeping and so try to avoid going to sleep on a full stomach because that can affect your sleep quality, and also your ability of your body to repair while you’re sleeping. AW: Okay, so we’ve got sleep hygiene, we’ve got quantity of hours of sleep, we’ve got nutrition in particular reducing our glycemic index not eating before we go to sleep and just reducing sugar. What else? OA: I would also say avoiding deficiencies in proteins and micronutrients. So this is where supplements can come in as well. And I’m always a little bit careful with supplements because people should be using supplements as supplements or at least you know, that’s my stance on it. We shouldn’t be replacing whole foods with supplements but to boost the immune system, there are supplements that you can incorporate into your diet namely, vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, vitamin B. Glutathione is a great supplement as well. So that is kind of like the big antioxidant, and NAC (N-Acetyl L-Cysteine) you can buy the supplement. It’s actually a precursor to the amino acid cysteine and it’s also great for respiratory problems as well. So when we’re dealing with a respiratory type of virus going on, NAC could be a great supplement to incorporate as well. So trying to keep the energy up and ensuring you have the micronutrients in your body as well to fight off any virus or infection. AW: I think this is great advice, especially for the age that we’re living in right now with the corona virus. So you know what I’m going to ask you when we go offline, I’m going to ask you to email me a list of what the specific supplements are that promote immunity, and then I’ll include them in the show notes so people can just click on it and see what they are. That would be really helpful. OA: Yeah, for sure. I’m sure I’m missing some right now. But I’ll email you a list. AW: That’s great. Thank you. What about other things? Like what about exercise? What about socializing? Any other? OA:  Sure, yeah. So there’s, you know, the basics for me are, how you’re sleeping, how you’re eating, how you’re moving and how you’re managing our stress. So I covered the first two, but exercises absolutely so important for your immune system, it boosts your immune system function. For exercise, I would say HIIT training is the most effective, so high intensity interval training. And it combines a little bit of cardio, a little bit of strength training, and it just kind of gets the best bang for your buck in terms of the amount of time spent exercising and the effects that you get versus other forms of exercise. So if someone’s looking for a quick workout routine to do at home training is great and there are so many free youtube videos available to I’m working remotely right now as well and you know, doing the social distancing and isolation and it’s just such a great repository, you just look online, okay, YouTube video, let’s go 30 minutes you got your mat, do a quick workout and you can you know, get back to work and can be a great break throughout the day or whenever you have the time. AW: That’s amazing. I have to tell you this afternoon I actually we created a zoom meeting with a bunch of girlfriends and one of them had her screen showing an online workout and we all did the workout together. It was so fun. We said, so it’s not social. We are physically distant from each other. But we’re still being physical and we’re definitely being social. OA: Yeah, I love that. The yoga studio that I go to, they sent out a notice that they’re going to be doing virtual classes now too. So such a great idea. And it actually goes into stress management too. So I find Yoga is so great for helping to wind down and I find that my sleep metrics are always a little bit better on the evenings that I do some form of yoga in the evening. It helps to power down and lower stress, but also you know, meditation or breathing exercises can help manage trust, too. Especially at a time like this, where you want to be boosting your immune system and kind of getting your cortisol levels down as possible, because there’s just an onslaught of media news and, and, you know, having everyone in the house, so it can be a very anxious time, especially right now. AW: So that’s a great point about the cortisol. You know, I was talking to a friend of mine, who’s in great shape talking about high interval training, she’s intense woman anyway, and she’s, and she said, You know, I have this craving to do yoga. So her body was probably craving just to breathe deeply. OA: Exactly. And it’s a great point to that you bring up because, you know, cardio training is great from an exercise standpoint, but sometimes when you do vigorous exercise, it can kind of get your body a little bit, you know, more worked up. And if you’re already on high alert, it can be a little bit much. So it’s important to kind of have that balance, too. So that’s a great point, adding yoga into your routine as well. AW: I think tomorrow I’m going to do yoga. So before we move on To the five rapid fire questions, I want to get a little bit personal. If you don’t mind, I’m guessing that the listeners would be curious to know how old you are. OA: Before we get into that, can I add another immune booster, please? AW: Bonus OA: Bonus. So another great one is cold showers and intermittent fasting. So, cold showers are probably an unpopular one, but it’s so worth that and I find that your body gets so used to it so quickly and it’s a great immune booster. You know, even for me, if I take a long break from doing cold showers, I’m just like, I don’t want to do this at all. Everything every cell in my body just doesn’t want to go through it. So with cold showers, a great biohacking tip is trying to do the cold shower right after a workout, your body’s really worked up and kind of heat it up your blood flows going. So it can be a little bit more tolerable to do the cold shower at that point. And also, you know, you don’t have to go to the maximum cold temperature right away you can build up Your tolerance day by day. And so start with a cold shower not super cool, but you know cold where it’s going to be a little bit uncomfortable and start with your feet. So this is this is a common misconception that you have to just like go into the shower and let the water hit you know, when the cold water hits your head first your body kind of goes into this hyperventilation mode of like something’s not right, you know, my head is called This is uncomfortable, and it kind of freaks out. But if you start with your feet and kind of body part by body part, work your way up and breathe through it. So take a breath in, and then as you breathe out, move up the water, but a lot more tolerable, just helps your body not freak out AW: What is it about the cold water that helps our immune system though. OA: So one of the things that it does is first of all boosts the immune system but also increases or activates fat adipose tissue stores. And so it causes our bodies to kind of up it’s homeostasis.  So it’s it’s thermogenesis. It’s balancing and managing fluctuations in your body. I’m probably butchering the explanation here. Essentially one of the one of the things with cold showers too is when you get out of the shower, allow your body to warm up on its own, because it really activates your body’s natural system of recalibrating if you will. And so that’s that’s one of the things but other than that, yeah, so with intermittent fasting, what’s happening there is you’re activating autophagy. So cellular autophagy is a process where your cells are clearing out any cellular waste, any damaged cells, damaged proteins out of your body. And as they mentioned, your body’s constantly in a state of growth or repair. So if you finish eating three hours before bedtime, you’re essentially starting your intermittent fast until the next morning. And so you’re not only basing the recovery while you’re sleeping, but when you’re intermittent fasting, which essentially means you’re limited Your food intake into about like a 10 hour window or so or some people do less. But for women especially, I would stop at around 10 hours when you’re eating wouldn’t decrease that window any less. AW: I’ve heard eight to 10. you’re recommending 10. OA: Yeah, for women, I would say just based on the research that I’ve seen for men, it actually is seems that fasting for longer in a day has more benefits for women long term, and not for all women. Of course, it’s so personal. But that’s essentially what aging is, is that accumulation of damage in your body, that time then becomes a pathology. And it’s much easier to prevent damage than to try to reverse damage that’s already happened. AW:  That’s true. You’re reminding me of some research that I’ve read. And I think I saw a TED talk about this. One of the main predictors of longevity is actually your social circle, right. In some of the Blue Zones on this planet where people are living for a long time, they do identified that they’re social. Do you know? Do you know about the research on that? Blue Zones book OA: So yeah, that’s a great point. And I think for your listeners to, that’d be really interesting to check out to looking at Blue Zones by David Buettner. He’s done a lot of research into that he has a few books out and a TED talk as well. So that’s what they found is there are certain parts of the world where people they have a higher density of people who live to 100 years and over. And so they looked into what are some of the things that they’re doing? How are they eating, you know, what is their lifestyle, like and found some commonalities and social, you know, social circles and social support was definitely a strong had a strong correlation with longevity. So I love your point about you know, getting on, on zoom on webcam with your friends, and you know, your social distancing. But that doesn’t mean you have to cut off your communication with your social circle because social support is so important to longevity. AW: Yeah, you know, I saw someone, I kinda stole that idea last night it was on Twitter and someone posted hashtag social distancing is not what we need. We need hashtag physical distancing. Yeah, that’s true. And then people were Oh, no, you’re being it’s just semantics. I’m like, no. I think the point is that we need to maintain proactively maintain our social relationships, especially nowadays when we’re cut off from people physically. OA: Absolutely. Yeah. Mental health is so important. Yeah. AW: Okay, so let’s get into the personal stuff then. OA: All right. AW: You’ve deflected the age question now. Y’all noticed. OA: I came up with two more! haha. AW: So you’re not going to tell us how old you are? OA: Oh, no, yeah, I’m happy to share I’m 28 years old. And that is my chronological age. But my biological age which I just got tested, it’s called DNA age. If anyone is interested in testing there’s there are a few different test kits out but that’s the one that I did: MyDNAge. You showed us 24 years old. So it is amazing to see that I’m essentially, you know, four years younger biologically, I was it was so scary opening up the results. Report in my inbox, I kind of stopped there like, boy, when I click this button, reveal it or not, because you really don’t know how it’s what it’s gonna turn out to be. And so I was I was curious to see what it was I’m happy with the result. But now my next goal is can I get that down to 20? AW: Amazing. Well, congratulations. But you know, I’m not surprised because you’re implementing research-based hacks, right? It’s not like you’re doing stuff that’s flaky or whatever, you’re actually reading the research. And you. You mentioned tracking sleep metrics. And when I met you in person you were telling me about, you were said you were I think you said you were doing the keto diet and every month you were doing your blood testing. So can you share a little bit with us about some of the things that you’ve done that you think of made a difference in what you’re measuring. OA: Yeah, so with the keto diet, I’m, I can’t share all the results yet because I’m still doing this four month experiment. But yeah, so I started the keto diet. almost four months ago, I committed four months away because it takes your body about 16 weeks to become fully fat adapted. so committed to four months, I did all my biomarker testing. So my blood labs, I did my hormone panel, I did this biological age as well, before I started the keto diet. My goal with the keto diet is to improve my insulin sensitivity and improve my glucose metabolism as well. So we’ll see what the results show but yeah, to your point every month, I’m also doing a prolonged fast and while I’m doing the prolonged fast and measuring my both my ketones and my blood glucose levels, with a monitor and mapping those curves, so it’ll be interesting to see in month to month how those curves change. AW: So I have two questions related to that. One is, are you sharing the results of this publicly? Or are you blogging about it on your website? OA: We’ll see what results show but yes, that is my that is the intent is to share that out. It’s information and it’s spreading awareness and different things that I’m trying that might be useful information for someone else. So I’m always happy to share on my social channels and constantly sharing whatever I’m learning, I share out that information. So I’m hoping to do the same thing with this four month experiment yet. AW: Yeah, I can’t wait to see what your results are. I’m already following you on social media, but I’ll put the link so that the listeners can as well. And my the other part of my question is are you going to continue to do all of the testing after you’re in the maintenance phase of keto because I’ve heard a lot of people say keto works when you’re on it, but then you when you shift to the maintenance phase, and then you go off it. Sometimes you rebound back to you know your your pre diet weight or you actually gain weight. So are you gonna keep tracking? OA: I’m, you know what I’m hoping to switch to a cyclic dive between keto and carbs. Again, if you like that one, you have to fiddle around with it and see what works for you. So I’m going to need to figure that out across the road. But I will keep testing my biomarkers. I mean, even before this diet, I was getting my full blood panels done every year, and just tracking those slight changes in my biometric data. But what the reason why I went on the ketogenic diet wasn’t for weight loss, it was really to improve the insulin sensitivity just from a hormone health standpoint. So it’ll be interesting. Yeah, my year to year to see how it fluctuates or if the improvements lost. And again, I’m happy to share that out what I learned as well along the way. AW: Yeah, I’m excited to to track to watch your progress. You know, I was thinking what I was doing putting together some of the questions for this interview that I, I hope that we can do another podcast sometime when you know Covid-19 is ancient history and coronavirus is wiped off the face of the planet. We can get into all the details about things like sleep hygiene, and I know you’re a huge proponent of that. I think, honestly, we could do an episode, which is what we were originally planning to do, right just sleep hygiene and affects our social life and what you know so much statistics and research on that and you have so many great biohacking tips, but we’ll save that for another episode. Is there anything before we move on to the five rapid fire questions that you want to add? And I specifically focused on, you know, this time of social distancing or physical distancing and the Covid-19 virus? OA: I mean, I would say take care of yourself and I feel like mental health is so important too. You know, I’ve been going out on my balcony. Getting some sunshine on my face and getting that straight vitamin D from the sun. I think, you know, cutting off digital communication for a period of time during the day can be so helpful as well, because especially now that everyone’s working remotely, that’s how most of your communication is happening, right? Like before someone was working in an office, you’d have more of those personal discussions in the hallway or someone comes by your desk. Now it’s all digital. And it can feel like a lot sometimes because you have your work emails and zoom calls and messages, slyke, WhatsApp, your personal digital channels, too, it can be a little bit overwhelming. And then you add in all the media and the news headlines that you get so carving out a little bit of time, during the week or even during the day where you just kind of disconnect and reconnect with yourself can be so helpful and it’ll improve your sleep too. AW: Back to the sleep hygiene. I love it. I think thank you for sharing that. It’s really, really important point. I I can tell you in our household, we’re really fighting hard to not fall into that kind of easy just playing on your phone and your laptop all day. We’re trying to come up with activities and taking turns, you know, making meals and playing games and having movie nights with with no phones. It’s tough though. It really takes a lot of discipline, but it’s really important. OA: Yeah, yeah. That’s great. I agree. AW:  Okay, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? OA: All right. AW:  I’m not I’m not literally gonna fire something on you. Okay, first question. What are your pet peeves? OA: This is a tough one because I feel like I try not to get too riled up by things that are out of my control. Like if someone cuts you off in traffic, it’s like Alright, well, that’s their life. I, I’d say a pet peeve is people not giving up their seat to pregnant women on the on public transit, not necessarily not necessarily health related, since that’s kind of our topic, but I see that all the time. Just kind of like, you know, just common courtesy and be polite, even if they say no, at least, you know, offer. It’s a nice gesture. But yeah, that’s, I’d say that’s a pet peeve because it kind of does rile me up. AW: Okay, question number two, what type of learner Are you visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? OA: I would say I’m a visual learner. Like, I’m always a person, I need to take notes. Definitely not auditory. Even with podcasts. If I listen to a podcast, it has a lot of information, I will go home and re-listen to it and take notes on it and press pause, write it down, because even if I never look at those notes, again, just the fact that I wrote it down, helps me memorize or keep it in my head. Um, so in terms of learning, I would say visual, but then in terms of communication, I was thinking, you know, like, what, how would a visual learner communicate? I’m not quite sure I would say. AW: Well, I was I was just gonna say You just reminded me when I first met you, it was when I saw you on stage, you were speaking at a panel. It was at a conference that was focused on food. And it was hilarious because you were sitting beside a gentleman who was a farmer. He was an organic farmer. And you were talking about, I can’t remember what you’re talking about, but you were freaking him out. OA: I was talking bio-technology. AW: Yeah, the two of you had this great rapport. And I instantly wanted to actually go and talk to both of you. And thankfully we did. So you’re great on stage. OA: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. AW: Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert? OA: I would say social introvert. And maybe, I don’t know, you know, I’ve thought about this one quite a bit too. Because, again, I with my biohacking meetup group, I ended up starting the group and then suddenly I did 15 events in 15 months. And this was, you know, just in my free time that I was doing this as just a passion project, if you will, and I had people reaching out saying, There’s no way you’re an introvert Like friends of mine, saying, there’s no way that someone who’s an introvert just voluntarily will go up and speak in front of an audience and give these talks and you know, get all these social gatherings together. But I feel like if I’m speaking on something I’m passionate about, it’s a little bit different. Where Yes, I’m getting a lot of my energy and I always feel like I need to recharge after events like that. I just kind of need to talk to anybody and give myself that time. But when I’m there, I’m having so much fun. I like I enjoyed so much and connecting with people at events and even when I go to just social gatherings that have nothing to do with biohacking or longevity. I feel that when I’m there, I want to put my best energy forward. And so I want to enjoy my time there. I want to make those meaningful connections and so it almost like gets my energy up to be at those gatherings but then I do need to go home and kind of recharge and I can easily spend a full Just Home Alone doing research on different things and nerding out and I love that, you know, so I’m not sure it’s a social introvert I guess. AW: I think that’s exactly what you are from. I mean, I’ve done a lot of research and reading on the social on the introvert and extrovert scale, and you are definitely describing someone who is an introvert, but your passion trump’s your introversion, right, so you said you feel energy when you’re on stage, but then you need to go recharge and and also your your friends are a little bit wrong, and I guess their definition of introversion, because that doesn’t mean social anxiety, right? It just means where you get your energy and you’re clearly not socially anxious. So that’s something else entirely shyness and yeah, OA: yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was looking forward to your opinion on that because… AW: The other thing is I ask it as a binary question. Are you an introvert Or are you an extrovert and I asked it that way to be provocative. The truth is that most of us are in the middle, right? But I think based on what you’ve told me, You are an introvert who also has this passion project where you get your energy also is from sharing information about your passion. So that’s fantastic. OA: Amazing. Okay. AW: Question number four – communication preference for personal conversation? OA: Yeah. So you know what I would love to say, pick up the phone every time because nothing trumps that kind of personal back and forth communication that’s alive and in real time. But reality is everyone’s in different schedules. And everyone’s so busy. And so I definitely do schedule time to connect with close friends and say, Oh, right, can we have a phone call this week, we need to catch up, you know, and we’ll do that. But if it’s just day to day, then I find I’m usually using WhatsApp and again, because I have friends in different countries on different time zones, and so it’s just, it’s just faster to kind of send a message there and I would say Instagram too, but it’s, it’s a lot of times, you know, if someone is reaching out to ask a question, I’ll just respond to them there. So let’s say yeah, like day to day, it’s what’s happened and Instagram, and then the other digital channels as well. Voice notes are helpful too, because then you know, you can get your thoughts out and they hear your voice and it’s a little bit more personal than just a text to Now, most communication channels offer that functionality. So I’m finding that in sending voice notes to but it takes some getting used to not not everyone’s into voice notes. AW: Well, in the day, we used to call it just leaving a voice message right on your answering machine. Here I am highlighting the years between us, Oksana! Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most these days? OA: Um, I would say the one that I would recommend the most is Dr. Peter Attia’s podcast, The Drive. I love that podcast because essentially it’s like learning from a clinician. It’s just so much great information and he explains it in such easy to understand terms. I feel like anyone can really listen to it without a strong scientific background. Some episodes do get a little bit more technical, a little bit deeper, but overall, I think it’s absolutely fantastic because he’s a, he’s a physician that does focus on longevity as well and sort of health optimization overall and more on the preventative health side. So I would recommend that one and the emails that he sends out are free to send us a lot of right there. AW: I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. There’ll be lots of things that people can reference in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to say to the listeners? OA: I would say come out to the next biohacking events. Once this corona-situation subsides, I would say look out for the next event. And in the meantime, I’m always sharing tidbits of information, anything I’m learning about optimizing physical and mental health on my social channels. So definitely check it out. And I look forward to connecting with everyone. If you have a question for me, feel free to reach out. I love talking about this kind of stuff. AW: That’s great. Thank you. Thank you so much, Oksana for sharing your expertise. It really was a pleasure. Thank you. OA: Thank you so much for having me. You had such fantastic questions. It’s been an absolute pleasure. AW: Oh, good. I can’t wait to get this out. THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]               ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. The post #46 – BIOHACKING TIPS to Boost Your Immunity with biohacker Oksana Andreiuk appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are you good at networking? Executive recruiter Sharon Mah-Gin shares her advice on how to be a better networker, including why it’s critical to attend events, how to thrive at small talk, how to leverage LinkedIn, and the ideal networking mindset.   References & Links Sharon Mah-Gin  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharonmahgin/ Executive Search Alliance – http://www.execsearchalliance.com/ Other Resources Never Eat Alone Books: Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi & Tahl Raz – https://amzn.to/2SSEPma How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie – https://amzn.to/2SR8IDh Networking for Shy People: ? ABCDE’s of Communication PODCAST – https://talkabouttalk.com/24-abcdes-of-communication-with-dr-andrea-wojnicki/ ABCDEs of Communication SUMMARY on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/5-simple-steps-improve-your-communication-skills-abcde-wojnicki/ FastCompany – https://www.fastcompany.com/90453095/how-to-be-a-networking-pro-when-youre-shy-and-would-rather-stay-home Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki How to Win Friends & Influence People ? Andrea’s email – [email protected] ? Free Communication Coaching via the Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ? Website – https://talkabouttalk.com ? Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ? Private Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us, Sharon to talk about networking. Sharon Mah-Gin: I’m delighted to be here. Thank you. AW: My first question is with regards to context. Can you define networking for us, please? SMG: Absolutely. You can Google it and you’ll find hundreds of definitions. But I’ve always tried to keep things simple. From my perspective, networking is the same thing as reciprocality. What do I mean by that? Networking is a mutual exchange of information, contacts, ideas. And it’s give and take, it’s not about scorekeeping. Like if I invite you to dinner 10 times, I don’t expect you to invite me to dinner 10 times. It is about you know, giving something back in return. It’s reciprocal. And if you think about it, that is how the world works. The number one key thing I say about networking, is when I’m coaching executives or young university students, I say, “what is it about networking that you’re so afraid off?” And they go “I feel like I’m begging!” I’m like, “excuse me, that is totally wrong.” True networking, it’s not about you. It’s how can I help you? In other words, help the other person. That is what I would consider to be true networking. AW: nicely put. So when you refer to networking in terms of reciprocality, you’re inferring that there is value that is being exchanged SMG: Correct. Yes. AW:  So what could the value be? Or the benefits? SMG: Great question. That could be an exchange in terms of a job lead. It could be in terms of which courses I should be taking at school. It could be about who do you think is the best company you’ve ever worked for, or the best school you’ve attended, or even the best professor. So it’s really soliciting feedback that can be helpful to you in terms of your career, your personal life. I mean, even something as simple as finding a plumber for your house. We all do that right? a housekeeper or nanny? We’re always asking. Our friends are trusted. You know, Friends, family, and who do you prefer? Right? That’s networking. AW: I hear people when I’m thinking about this topic, I hear people almost complaining about networking. Like, gosh, I really need to get out there and network more, or one of my goals for 2020 is to be a better networker. Why is it so important for us to be networking? SMG: When I’m coaching executives, or I’m interviewing the, I always ask them, take me through your various jobs. How did you go from one job to the next? And a lot of times, it’s because a colleague told me about it, an ex boss hired me, you know, etc. So it is through the network, because the reality is that there are so many people out there. So how do you differentiate yourself? you differentiate yourself through the network. There’s someone out there saying, I know you are. I’m happy to help you or to refer you. AW: And it works both ways, right? Research shows that it’s typically within your network is the way that you find your next job right? SMG: Absolutely. AW: It’s a friend of a friend. SMG: Yes, absolutely. There’s a great book, I highly advise everyone to read. Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi. It’s a great, easy book to read. AW: I have to admit I have seen it. I have not read it, but I definitely will. Based on your recommendation. SMG: I send it out to CEOs. I send it out to young university kids. It’s a really fun read. And it really breaks things down in terms of very simple terms. AW: Can you share with us any stories about people who are great at networking? SMG: That great networker are the ones who really – if you watch them in a room, they have a natural friendliness about them, they’re easily approachable. You’ll see them walking around the room talking to people, talking to two to three people at a time, maybe spending anywhere from five to eight minutes. And when they’re exiting, they’ll say “it was wonderful meeting you and you probably want to meet some other people…” and then they move on to the next person. So there are those are people who are just really natural there. It’s really about how can I help you. And if you listen to them speak, this is what’s really critical. It’s never about them. It’s always – studies have shown that if I were to meet you at a cocktail party, and I said, “Hi, my name is Sharon. I’m in executive search.” Then you’d Introduce yourself, “and what do you do?” And you said, “I was a former professor, and I do TalkAboutTalk.” I go, “Oh, that sounds really interesting. Tell me more about that.” And then I’d ask you another question. I now I’ve asked you three questions. And yet if you got pulled away, and someone came up to you said, “Andrea, what do you think about Sharon?” You’d say, “Wow, she’s great.” And yet, if we watch the video of it, not once did I talk about myself? Because the reality is people like to talk about themselves. I don’t know if you watch Oprah Winfrey? In her very last episode on TV, she talked about, “I have interviewed over 100,000 people from convicts, to royalty, to kings, to navy seals. And what is the one thing that I found that every single person wants?  They want to know I see you. I hear you. And what you say matters. AW: I think I remember that! SMG: Yes, exactly. So that’s what it’s all about. There’s another great book, Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. You know, it’s been around for many, many years. But he talks about the same idea – that people enjoy talking to us. That’s why your name is very important. That’s why people really don’t like it if you get their name wrong. And that’s why if you when you’re doing it, when you’re networking, you say their name three times, there’s that actual connection. It helps in terms of the networking. You see them, and you value them. So that’s another technique that one might use in terms of network. AW: I have heard that that is the number one favorite word for most people is their own name, although they would never say that if you ask them directly. SMG: That’s so interesting! I didn’t know that, but I just know that from my readings and from my own experience. AW: I wonder if there’s research like with an MRI or something where they can prove that? they could you know what… I bet you they could. What about stories about people who fail at networking? SMG: Oh, yeah. There’s a lot! I coached this one individual who I had placed at a company, he was a fantastic individual. But networking really wasn’t his thing. And this is actually probably a great story that can be shared, and a lot of people can learn. But this was an individual who I placed, whom I had a lot of respect for. He was leaving a company and we had to talk about networking. So his idea of networking was to go out and phone people he knew, which was fine. But my idea of effective networking because there’s only 24 hours a day is to network in terms of groups, associations, industry events, etc. So there was an event that was going on, and I asked them to attend it with me and I said, I could show you how to go about networking. And I said, plus, I know that five people there know you from your previous role, and it’s a great chance for you to touch them very quickly. He said, Well, no, Sharon, I, I can’t make it. And I said, Well, why? He said, Well, I have a meeting. I said, well who’s it with? He goes, Oh, it’s with the outplacement firm. I said, you absolutely can reschedule that meeting! This breakfast meeting, you must come with me. And I said, you will know some of the people who are going to be there. I said, Have you contacted them? He goes, Well, yes. He says, I called two of those people. And I said, when he said a week ago, I said, have they gotten back to you? No.  I said, that’s because they’re busy. They’re busy executives. So he came with me to the event. I took him around, and I introduced him. Hi, nice to see you. I’m gonna introduce you to Mr. so-and-so, he’s actually a seasoned CFO who’s looking for his next role, you know, etc. So he can see how I was doing it. Then we found the people that I knew he would know because we both knew them. And sure enough, Hi, how are you? They reconnected, and when it came time to say goodbye, I saw him in the corner with one of the other individuals. And I thought, huh, that looks promising. Yeah. And sure enough, that was his next role. AW: Oh, that’s great! SMG: Yeah. And he’s sweet. And I just had dinner with him in January. He’s been there now three years. He’s so happy. He keeps thanking me every single time. But he saw firsthand how networking is so important. And that’s where he landed his role. AW: I feel like that was an I told you so moment SMG: I didn’t say it. But he did. He did. Another great story, another CEO that I had, she was having a tough time finding a job. And I remember this woman, she was sort of depressed. You know, that happens. It’s sometimes hard for a CEO or even a young person,… AW:  It’s a big part of their identity! SMG: At that time, I was helping out with a conference and I said, Well, I have a pass here for conference that’s worth $600. But I have a few left that I could give to you. But the promise here is that you cannot just go for two hours. You have to attend the whole conference!  You’re gonna feel like only going for two hours. And I want you to network. You know who the speakers are, I guarantee you, and it’s every 30 minutes. And I guarantee you that that speaker will be in the audience. So you have the right to go up to that person because that’s what conferences are for, or cocktail parties, to go up to that person. So sure enough, she met an individual, and she got a role. And she sent me a case of wine to say thanks. AW: Oh, nice! SMG: Yeah. AW: So thanks for the conference ticket and for the job! SMG: Yes, exactly. So that’s another example. So to be honest, from a networking perpective, it’s hard to ask people to meet you for an hour or they meet me for coffee. The reality is that the world is a very busy place right now. So I always talk about efficient networking. So those are your cocktail parties. When I go to events, it’s that hour before the main event, versus the hour after. That’s golden, that hour before is precious. you can touch a whole bunch of people and you just need to touch high level, you’ll feel there’s a connection. You can ask them for their card, or what I often do is I LinkedIn right away because I find that LinkedIn very powerful in terms of networking, because there’s a picture of them. I actually will say, great meeting you at this dinner or at this conference. So now I have a record off so that next time when I’m meeting you. AW: So on the weekend, I was on a zoom conference call with I think about 25 podcasters. And about two hours after the meeting, I got a LinkedIn request from someone who was on the call. And I thought that’s brilliant. SMG: Yeah, so that’s one really great strategy. And LinkedIn is the way to go. By the way, if any of you out there in the audience don’t have an LinkedIn account, you must have one! 10 years ago, from a search perspective, I would say 10% of the people had LinkedIn because they felt was you only were on there if you’re looking for a job right? AW: That’s what people say. I have heard people say that who aren’t on it. They say only people that need jobs are on LinkedIn. And I said, Oh, that was the case before. But that is really untrue. SMG: Now why I would say that now 99% of the people are on LinkedIn. Even if you only have one contact, you’re on LinkedIn. The reason for that is, that is the way business is done now. And it’s not just about looking for a job. If you’re in sales, how wonderful that the most valuable part of that is that mutual connections. So you might be looking at someone going, Well, we have 10 mutual connections, you look at those 10 mutual connections, and it just helps you accelerate the process. W e used to do more on an informal basis, right? You walk in, hey, I see that you and I know Andrea, and then right away it becomes a “warm hello.” How do you know her? Well we went to school together . So right away, you now have a point and you bet you if I’m interested in doing business with you, or if I value Andrea, I’m thinking, well if that person knows Andrea and Andrea knows her, this person must be very credible, trustworthy, etc. It’s not just about jobs. It’s about a lot of different things. The world has changed a lot. And absolutely, with LinkedIn resumes, you can do different versions. But LinkedIn, just a quick pointer is to have that first little piece of it, there’s only a certain number of words. But that’s when you can be warm. It’s really great to tell your story. And that’s what people read. Then they very quickly can see where you’ve worked and see your mutual connections. And if you really want to be active, you can tie podcasts into it and all sorts of videos, and stuff like that. But it’s even changed our world in terms of search, like the whole mid market and recruiting has probably gone a lot because now people bring it in house and hire some junior recruiters who basically work the LinkedIn. AW: I’ve heard that. SMG: Exactly. And it’s got pros and cons because I see it from the side where they try it. They don’t know quite how to get it done. There is something to be said for looking at people, not just what’s on paper, but cutting through some of the stuff . Even though they held this job, you’ve gotta look at the total picture. Where did they go to school, some of the companies, we understand the cultures that the skills that they might have developed from there that’s really impacted our industry. AW:  for sure. Building on the LinkedIn, I guess, and and the associations and everything else that we’ve been talking about. Can you share with us what some of the most important things to keep in mind are in terms of networking, particularly at different stages of our career? So, maybe start with younger folk? SMG: Yes. So number one, I’m going to say, networking, you do it the rest of your life. You can even start when you’re in your teens, and it continues the rest of your life. You never stop networking. So let’s start with the youngsters. I will start with the university kids right? Sure you finished graduating or you’re almost getting close to graduating, you need an internship, etc. AW: Should they have a LinkedIn page? SMG: Absolutely. AW: I have to tell you about two weeks ago, I sat down with my teenage son and we created a LinkedIn page. And that was prompted by his peers connecting with me on LinkedIn. And I said to him, buddy, you need to step it up. He’s a teenager. SMG: Yeah. How old? AW: 16. SMG: Yeah.  So absolutely, you need a LinkedIn page. And in that LinkedIn page, because you don’t have a lot of experience, you can talk about different activities, sports or any leadership roles. At the end of the day, companies hire you for three things, they’re gonna hire you, because you you’re gonna help them make money, save money, or help them solve an issue. So if you’re young in your career, we get it that you don’t have the experience. So we’re hiring for the soft skills. Can they learn? Are they going to be reliable? Are they a hard worker? Did he have a positive attitude? They have a smile on their face. That’s what we’re hiring for. AW: Yeah. So you’re talking about joining associations. I love that. That’s the kind of explicit recommendation to go out and join associations and then get out there in real life and meet the people I’m thinking, not only are you meeting people, but you’re also giving yourself a line to put on LinkedIn or your resume. Right? So it’s, it’s like, doubly efficient, right? SMG: So if you’re interested in finance, there’s the finance association at all the universities, right? Take a leadership role in it. So I often say to people, when you do this… I’ve done a few of these seminars on how to build a very successful professional services practice. Whether you’re a consultant or a lawyer or an accountant, and one of the advice that I give individuals is I say, what sector do you want to work in? So she said, such-and-such sector. I said, you’re going to go join the association that holds these conferences for the association, but you’re not just going to join, you’re going to take a leadership role in it. And in that leadership role, you become the president or vice president, there’s going to be a leadership role, and you can attend all the events. You’re going to go and you’re just going to talk to people, not about yourself, but just have an interest because you like that sector. And then from there, it’s about likability in professional services, because you’re selling a service. So it’s the same thing in networking, because you are actually selling yourself, aren’t you? In networking, you’re not selling your product in networking. AW: What about when people are more advanced in their career? It could be mid career or even towards the end of their career. I know from observation, actually looking around at some of my peers and people that are a little bit older. I feel like people get a little comfortable in terms of their networking. They have their buddies, they have their one sport that they do. right. Do you have any advice for older people as they’re networking? SMG: Absolutely. Get out of your comfort zone. That’s the first thing. Go out and learn because you know what, the world is changing a lot. You know, 75% of the jobs that that our children’s kids are going to have, have not even been invented yet. Artificial Intelligence, data analytics. I look at some grandparents – The two year olds know how to use the iPad to call grandma and granddad – like a two year old! Like, you know, they don’t know what button to push. So you don’t push yourself out of your comfort zone. Sure, it’s great to have people that you’ve known, but having people that are younger or be a mentor to them, that that’s a nice segue right there. Start coaching and giving back and being a mentor to those who are younger, share your experience, because you’re gonna learn from them, too. That’s right. It works both ways. Remember, networking is mutually beneficial, right? It’s not a one way street. Right? So that’s what I love. AW: That’s also great advice to give the younger people like don’t forget your offering to them. SMG: Yes, that’s what the younger folk are doing. Exactly, exactly. AW: nicely put. What are the biggest mistakes that people make when they’re trying to network?  Back to that person who’s thinking, this is the year I’m going to get out there and network. What are some mistakes that people make? SMG: I see it all the time. Like for example, this is a bit of a pet peeve – from a search perspective, when someone calls me up or sends me an email and says, “Hi, I’m looking for my next job. And I was wondering if you could give me an hour of your time so we could talk about the market.” I actually almost feel that that’s an insult to think that I have nothing better to do than to sit there for an hour with a random stranger to talk about the market. AW: So in other words, what’s in it for me, right? So like back the reciprocality. SMG: You got it. It is. And so it’s people who do that, or where they sit there and they think all they’re supposed to do is talk about themselves and what their needs are. Or when they say hi, could you introduce me to some people, and I’m going, I don’t even know who you are. AW: So you’re reminding me of some of my brilliant friends who maybe had been laid off or quit a job and they really aren’t sure what they want to do next, and they’ll start doing what I’m sure you’ve heard of as information interviews. What are you offering to someone when you are seeking an Information interview? SMG: Usually the information interviews are done through a referral. Because that’s furthermore why you should be networking – because you have something to offer them. And that’s goes back again to the reciprocality. Right? So in other words, when someone is asking for example for me to do information interview, I look at them and I go “Hmm, MBA from Harvard, McKinsey, etc. So I’m thinking pretty great person, probably fun to talk to.” So I might do that. Or where I really tend to do a lot of my information interviews is through a referral. AW:  So you’re actually doing someone else a favor in your network – so it’s leveraging that network …? SMG: It goes back to networking, and you know why? The reality is and I get a lot of people who are  frustrated, unemployed, and they go, “no one’s getting back to me and blah, blah,..”  and I’m going, huh? So let’s talk about this. When you were gainfully employed, working full time, I’m sure you must have done or had a few of these requests, correct? They say Yes, and I go, Hmm. So after you did that information interview, or I’m assuming it’s because someone asked you to do it and they acknowledge, yes. Like either a boss or a friend or whatever. How much did you think about that person after that? Well, I really didn’t. And I said, so it’s not personal. It’s just that people are busy. We’re busy! And there’s 24 hours in a day. The reality is, most people are busier than they ever have been. So it’s not personal. So what I often suggest to them is to go within the outplacement firm. There’s different groups of unemployed people take that as an opportunity to network. Because the reality is that you are a very highly accomplished individual, but you have the luxury of time now. So you’re frustrated. And so why don’t you network with some other people, because the reality is those relationships will continue after you land your next role. AW: That’s brilliant. It’s also a great place to start. It feels like a safe place to start. SMG: Exactly. And so they go oh…, and I say, think about that, right? Then what a lot of them will say to me is, well, Sharon, you’re right. When I land, I am going to be extra sensitive to this.   AW: like in terms of wanting to help? SMG:  Exactly. It takes going through the experience to understand true effect of a network. Suddnly it’s like, How can I help you? and I can really see the people who come up with that mindset. AW: They’re positive SMG: You have to be genuine. You cannot fake it. Networking you cannot fake. You have to be genuine. Read that book. Never eat alone by Keith Ferrazzi. AW: authenticity? SMG: absolutely critical. People know, especially at the senior levels, they know. And I think if you’ve got high emotional intelligence, you can pick them out.  So what I do is I really try to get out to as many events. So if I’m in an industry sectors like say Life Sciences, I will go to their gala in February because in that gala, they had the Lifetime Achievement Award. They have the Volunteer of the Year award. They have the Company of the Year Award, and they have the Social Responsibility Award. So frankly, anyone who’s going to be anyone, especially with the Lifetime Achievement Award, is going to be there, right? In the company of the year. So in that cocktail party, there’s usually about 600 people. I can just quickly touch base with a lot of people very quickly. So sometimes they’ll pull me aside. Sharon, Sharon, I’m looking for my job. Okay, I’ll catch up with you later on. Sharon, when you have a search, I’m here. Okay. I’ll catch up with you later. But it’s just a great way to be seen. So that I’m again, top of mind. And then it’s… AW: Sorry to interrupt but it’s almost like brand resonance. Right? SMG: Right. AW: The brands are out there. They’re in our face. They’re on our computers, they’re on billboards, they’re in magazines, they’re across different media, and it’s almost like you’re selling your personal brand out there and you’re trying to increase or maximize exposure. SMG: Absolutely. Networking. And that’s what you have to do is be out there. You can’t hide behind your computer. And that’s why to be honest with you, Andrea, there are very few female partners in law firms, CPA firms, even management consulting firms. Because a lot of it requires, you know, sitting on committees or attending a lot of events, which are usually in the evenings, right? If you’re the female, if you have a family, you can’t do that as much as, say, the male. AW: It’s changing, but it’s definitely that way. SMG: That’s one of the biggest reasons why you don’t have that, because you have to be out there at all sorts of events, and ideally, in a leadership role. So that you know, you can be a sponsor for it ,if you want an easier way of doing it. But even as a sponsor, you should be at that event. I’ve gone to events where there’s been a major sponsor, and there was nobody there from that. And I’m going Oh, my goodness. And then the other thing I pass on to you is: so say you’re a guest, you know, at a table or I’m hosting a table what I often do is I will provide to all my guests, two or three days, nothing earlier than that. It’ll get lost in the email. I will actually provide a name of all the guests at the table with the company name. And so it’s on you, if you’re smart, to Google or and look up their LinkedIn and sort of figure out what they do. And if it’s someone that you want to meet, make sure you either sit next to them, or at least introduce yourself when they’re at your table. You know a little bit about them. Because the reality is when you sit down at that table of 10, usually it’s the person to the right and the left, the other people introduce themselves, but you don’t really know what they do. AW: What a great hostess! SMG: Yeah, so I always do that. And people really thank me for it. And then the other thing is certainly from a networking perspective, if you are hosting an event or you’re at an event with a bunch of colleagues from work, please don’t hang out together or sit together! I mean, another pet peeve: when I’m at a table, and half the table’s from the Bank of Montreal, I go, oh my gosh, like you don’t have anything else better to do? This is an opportunity. To me it’s a wasted networking opportunity, AW: Again, getting out of your comfort zone. SMG: Exactly. AW: Not sitting with your besties. But actually meeting new people. So the most efficient way of networking really is getting up and attending, whether it be conferences or cocktail parties, or gala industry events, etc. SMG: Yeah. And to be honest, it’s a lot easier than doing a one-on-one – is asking someone, can I have an hour of your time, or even 20 minutes for coffee? You can do that at a cocktail event. AW: I’m imagining someone listening to this, who may be an introvert and or who may be shy thinking, Okay, easy for you to say, but I can’t stand the small talk. Do you have any advice for those people? SMG: Well, first of all, I keep going back to this. The networking is not about them. So the small talk, it’s really about asking the questions of the other person you’re meeting. If you’re an introvert, it may be tough, so I always say go with a friend because it’s always easier if that’s the case. Someone like me –  I’m a huge extrovert. Look, I could walk into a room with 500 people, not know anybody, and say, Wow, 500 potential new friends! Whereas an introvert will go: I’d rather have a root canal than walk into that room, right? But so if you’re an introvert, my advice would be go with another friend. And approach groups that have an odd number. Because usually there’s an odd number, like there’s three or five, there’s usually one person out or whatever, that you can quickly engage. AW: I hadn’t thought about that! SMG:  Yes AW: I actually have a podcast episode and a paper about the ABCDEs of Communication. And it’s really it’s five steps to get you through that awkward small talk. Right? And the first one is “Ask questions.” SMG: Yes, that’s right. AW: But I love your point about approaching groups, because there’ll always be an odd person out because you know, you’re trying to have a conversation with three. But if you’re, there’s that odd person, you can you can see it, they’ll be standing there quietly or whatever. And if you went up to them, they will be forever, you know, grateful. Thanks for saving me. SMG:  exactly. AW: Is there anything else you want to add, Sharon, about networking before we move on to the five rapid fire questions? SMG: Oh, that sounds like fun! Well, just that honestly ,networking it’s really not about you. It’s about the other person and taking a genuine and authentic interest in them and trying to help them. And that networking never stops. It is a life long skill. Like I said. It’s not even just for your career. It could be something as simple as finding a plumber or a doctor or, or whatever. It’s just, it never stops. It’s not just related to finding a job. AW: Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? SMG: I am. AW: First question. What are your pet peeves? SMG: My pet peeve is people who are not lifetime learners. There’s so much out there to learn, in terms of technology, and just the way the world is going. So I’m such a lifetime learner. I’m always curious, wanting to learn. So that’s one. And number two are just people who are takers – who are not genuine, who just take-take-take, and it’s all about them. I would say those are my two top pet peeves. AW: So I have to ask you about the lifelong learner thing. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you’re doing a search and you have a candidate and then it registers with you that they are not a lifelong learner. Have you ever called someone on that and said like, Buddy? SMG: so yeah, well, I just see the facts. I’m not gonna try to call them out but I might ask them. AW: You’re like a psychologist. SMG: Sometimes I feel like … sometimes I truly feel like I actually find out more information than I really need to know. AW:  Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you – visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learners? SMG: Definitely visual. I have to see it. I have to see it and feel it. I’m definitely that type of learner. You can talk to me and talk to me. And I just won’t remember it. But I can touch it, feel it. See it. That’s how I learned. AW: I didn’t know how you’re going to answer that. But now that you’ve said it, I think that’s true. Because you do comment on color and arts a lot, don’t you? SMG: Yeah, Yeah, I do. Colors make me happy. AW: Me too. OK. question number three, introvert or extrovert?  Bahaha! Like that’s not obvious! SMG: Definitely an extrovert. AW: Moving on. SMG: I definitely get energy from people. I’m an energy giver versus a taker. And I have many people comment on that, too. AW: Yeah, it’s true. I feel energy around you. But here’s maybe a more insightful question to ask you about that. Is there anything because you’re an extrovert that you have to sort of work on or gauge within yourself? SMG: Yes, absolutely. That some people may not be as passionate about things as I am. And not as action orientated as I am. AW: You have to cut them some slack. SMG: Yeah, I have to slow down sometimes. You know, be more patient. AW: These are words that I need to internalize myself. Okay. Question number four. Communication preference for personal conversations? SMG: Definitely face to face if it’s a serious conversation. Face to face. In person. AW: Why? SMG: Because of the body language and it’s about being genuine and authentic. And I think that if you can do that in person, you can see it. AW: What about for casual conversation? SMG: Emails, texts, urgent texts.  Well, I’m trying to plan dinners and stuff like what who’s bringing what food? Definitely email. AW: So it’s kind of a hierarchy there,  in terms of urgency. SMG: You got it. Yeah. AW: Number five, podcast or blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? SMG: Of course, it’s Talk About Talk! Do we need to ask that question? AW: Not including Talk About Talk? SMG: Okay, well, then maybe TED Talks. I love watching them,  It’s about self improvement or learning or getting better at something. I love watching those. It’s like the we have to make so many decisions. So “top 10” is a favorite word in my vocabulary. Anyone who knows me who travels with me, when we go to restaurants and stuff, I always say, what are your top three sellers? Not what you like. But what three items do you sell the most? So I don’t want to make that decision because there’s just so many decisions that we all have to make already. AW: Right. SMG: So that’s sort of being like a standing joke amongst many of my colleagues and friends and stuff. She was gonna ask her, one of your top three sellers, AW: Brilliant, that’s a great insight. Great advice. Thank you very, very much for sharing your advice and your time with us, Sharon. SMG: Thank you. My pleasure.   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]                   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. The post #45 NETWORKING with executive recruiter Sharon Mah-Gin appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you know how to conduct an interview? It could be a job interview, an information-seeking interview, a journalistic interview, or perhaps for entertainment purposes – like an interview that’s presented as a written article, a live interview onstage, or – a podcast interview! Improviser and podcast host David Shore shares his advice, including how to prepare for an interview and specific tips for during the interview.   REFERENCES & LINKS David Shore   Monkeytoast – https://monkeytoast.com/ The Panel Show podcast – https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-panel-show/id1495709255 Twitter – https://twitter.com/thedavidshore?lang=en Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/david.shore.376 Interviewers mentioned:  David Shore Stephen Colbert – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Colbert David Letterman – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Letterman Marc Maron – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Maron Seth Meyers – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Meyers Conan O’Brien – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_O%27Brien Greg Proops – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops Charlie Rose – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Rose Tavis Smiley – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavis_Smiley Howard Stern – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Stern Podcasts: Marc Maron’s podcast WTF – http://www.wtfpod.com/podcast Canadaland – https://www.canadalandshow.com/ The Secret Life of Canada – https://www.cbc.ca/radio/secretlifeofcanada Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ? Andrea’s email – [email protected] ? Free Coaching via the Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ? Website – https://talkabouttalk.com ? Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ? Private Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you, David, so much for joining us to talk about interviewing. David Shore: Yeah, I’m happy to be here. I love your artwork. AW: Oh, that’s nice. Especially after you’ve been so gracious and patient with me as I’m trying to set up my audio equipment. The listeners don’t know this because my audio equipment wasn’t working. But I was having major problems recording and David was incredibly patient. And he told me that it wasn’t bothering him at all. DS: I’ve been on your end of it. You were on my show, Monkey Toast. And we were recording it for podcasts, which we decided not to do. It’s very difficult to record a live comedy show, particularly if it has live music. And we had nights where some of the equipment wasn’t working. And we have to open the door because we have a big crowd. It was a nightmare. And some nights we decided not to record. Eventually I decided to kill the podcast because it’s just too difficult. Even with my other podcast The Panel Show, subjects we had radio interference from cell phones. AW: So this is a new one that I hadn’t heard of – radio interference from cell phones? DS: Yeah. Apparently it’s not uncommon, depending on the venue, depending on the equipment. AW:so why don’t you share with the audience some of the types of interviews that you’ve done? and then if we want we could we could get into equipment malfunctions. DS: Sure. I’m an improviser by trade, which people are like, what’s that?  People would say I’m a comedian, but I don’t do stand up, except maybe in high school. I, you know, trained as an improviser out in LA at the Improv Olympic and then came back to Toronto where I was at the Second City on the main stage there for about 18 months. And then when I left, I started my own show: Monkey Toast, which is an improv show. It morphed into a talk show when CBC Radio got involved. So they trained me – taught me how to interview people. We worked with them for about a year. We kept that as a talk show. Through that I’ve got to meet … that’s how I met you. You were a guest on the show. We’re always looking for interesting people. And through that as well, for awhile I did celebrity interviews for Reader’s Digest Canada. We did a corporate show for them and they loved it. AW: So you were interviewing celebrities? DS: I did. I interviewed William Shatner. They called me one day, and she goes, we’d love for you to interview Dave Thomas from SCTV for our comedy issue, I’m like, okay. She’s like, we’ll pay you. Okay! I was good. Everything I kept saying was like, “okay.” Because you want to pay me to interview one of the people I idolized growing up? We had to do it over the phone, it was great. And they loved the interview and said, Hey, do you want to do more of these? And I was like, Yeah, why wouldn’t I want to be published in a magazine that pays well and is read by 9 million people in Canada? So I gave them a list of people with Don Rickles, I think h was at the top. And then Bobby Orr . AW: that’s hilarious. DS: But they were like – it had to Canadians. They said, We like the idea of you interviewing William Shatner. If we send you to LA to interview him, who else can you interview there? If we send you there, you can’t just do one interview. So at a time, some of you may have heard of David Shore. That name sounds familiar. And that’s because there’s a very famous David Shore. He created the TV show HOUSE. AW: Right. DS: And I know him. Yeah, we know each other. He’s from London, Ontario. He’s a nice Canadian as well. I had a Seder once with him in Los Angeles. So I said, What about David Shore? He just won the Emmy for HOUSE and they liked the idea of David Shore interviewing David Shore. I had a phone number and email address and I contacted his wife. They’re like Of course we remember you! How could we not remember the other David Shore ? Why would you say no to be interviewed by Reader’s Digest? 9 million people are going to read what you said! AW: especially when it’s someone that has your name. DS: Yeah, it was a really good interview actually. It was pretty funny. AW: So you’re interviewing people for magazines, and then now you’re interviewing people on stage, and it’s live. And then you’re also interviewing people for podcasts, which can be edited. So I have so many questions about this. Let’s start at a basic level. How are those different? DS: Well, you know, I haven’t done a print one in a long time. I mean, the Reader’s Digest, you know, I do an hour interview, and then I would have to transcribe it and then that would give me about 20 pages and they will cut it down to maybe a page or three quarters of a page. William Shatner’s was titled “space cowboy” or something like that, because he has a ranch and it is related to horses and I think he had some charities involved with kids and getting them onto horses and stuff. And with David Shore, we talked about his background and the fact that now that he has a successful show. I get some emails directed at him. I got fan mail sent to my agents, you know, because I’m an actor as well. And so I, one of the things I asked him was like, have you ever been mistaken for me? AW: That’s a great question to ask him. DS: And he said, Yeah, I once got a call from a guy and he’s called, we’re talking and he’s like, (this is the way my friend John talked),  he was like, “Yeah, you’re not you’re not the David Shore I know.” And it was a friend of mine, John Wolk, who actually works on Jimmy Kimmel, (Named drop!) And he called the wrong David Shore. AW: So I want to go back a little bit to interviewing skills. Earlier on here, you said that CBC taught you to interview. Can you share with the listeners a few of the things that maybe you remember from back then that they thought you? DS: It was a long time ago.  I forget the name of the gentleman I met with. He played tapes for me of interviews. And he would say, can you see why that was bad? and a big thing was, you know, “do you think this will bring down the government?” Yes? Then that’s a bad question. Anything that gives you a yes or no answer is a bad question right? That is, unless you follow it up with why? AW: so open ended questions is kind of like I don’t know, the low hanging fruit for the types of questions to ask, right? DS: You don’t want to ask yes or no questions, because that’s what you will typically get: a yes or no answer. Particularly if the person you’re interviewing is nervous. The most important thing when you’re interviewing someone is to have them relax. I’m not a journalist. I’m not.  I told you before the show, if I asked you a question, and you realize, “oh, I don’t want to talk about this,” then you just say, “I don’t want to talk about it,” and I’m going to move on. It’s a comedy and I want them to be comfortable. I kept telling you, I just want you to be comfortable. You’re just talking to me. AW: Yep. That remember, we spoke on the phone the day before the interview, and you said, I just want you to be comfortable. Just talk and I’ll guide you and… DS:  but that to me is the most important thing. You have to make the person comfortable. And then it’s a conversation. You want to be engaged. I need to listen to you. I always over prepare, no matter what. For Reader’s Digest as well. I think when I interviewed William Shatner I read two of his books. And I’d seen all of Star Trek. Because I’d seen all the Star Treks. AW: You’re a trekkie.  I get it. DS: Yeah, but not like – I don’t wear the costumes or anything. But I also got some videos or DVDs from the library before I interviewed him. There was one of him and Leonard Nimoy interviewing each other. And so there’s valuable information in that, because I went in well-prepared, knowing everything.  A lot of the time I know the answer before I ask the question. But at the same time, you have to be able to go off the cuff. AW: So I was just going to say – in almost any context of interviewing: could be for journalist trying to get information for a story, it could be for entertainment purposes. It could be for a job interview. I heard you say a couple times. The most important thing is to make the interviewee relax, and to feel comfortable. So let’s talk about when the interviewee is not relaxed or they don’t appear to be comfortable. Do you have any stories or advice about that? DS: Well, I’ve had a few guests, I think over the years, I could think of, I’ve been doing Monkey Toast for 17 years. I can think of three guests who were horrible. I’m not gonna name any names. AW: No, don’t do that. DS: But they were people who just didn’t want to talk, One of them I said, so you’ve got a new book coming out about hockey? Why don’t you tell us about us about it? It’s just a book. AW: Wow. DS: And I’m thinking, you’re literally killing me. AW: Also themselves, how is that serving their own interest to sell more books? DS: I don’t know. But you know… AW: what was going on? Was he nervous? DS: No, I don’t know. But after the show, there was a reviewer there. like a journalist, you know, and said, Wow, that was hard. I said, tell me about it. Because I had to answer all the questions. Every question I asked him, I had to answer. AW: So it probably depends on the person’s personality, in terms of getting them to talk, but I like the idea. Generally, we would advise against leading questions or helping answer the question, but sometimes people just need a little prop up, right.? DS: Yeah, I mean, and that’s rare. There’s three people I could think of in 17 years. Typically, if I know someone is quiet, I don’t want to book them as a guest interview. AW:  Right. DS: So I did do that. I had an old neighbor. He was a musician in a band that was fairly well known at the time and I remember the lead singer came in and he said, I can’t believe he talked, because he’s really quiet!  I hadn’t realized that because we would hang out in the backyard and have beers and he was quite talkative. But then he known as being a quiet stoic guy. And when I interviewed him, oh, yeah, you’re really quiet. He would give short answers. AW:  some people are good with one on one right? And then yeah, they’re in a room or in front of a mic microphone. It’s a completely different story. DS:  No, for sure. And that’s it’s just learning and you’re going to make mistakes. You’re gonna make mistakes. We were talking about that before we start recording. You know, it took me years to get good at doing interviews. It’s a skill. Part of the problem in Western society is, when you watch, you know, film or TV, and instantly something good happens. It takes 10 seconds. It’s like… Jimmy Fallon started on The Tonight Show and I thought – he’s terrible at interviewing. But that’s because he’d probably never done it before. Yeah, but now he’s quite good at it. AW:  Now you know, I don’t want to name names, but there are some people on TV on Late Night that I think are horrible interviewers. DS: Well, it’s a different skill. It is funny. And it’s and you know, if you’re asking me, who were my favorite interviewers? I love Seth Meyers and Colbert. And I watch most of the comedy clips from their shows. And I will watch – there’s certain guests I want to see. But I watched Letterman every day. I taped Letterman every day. But it was it wasn’t for the interview. It was for the comedy. AW:  It’s a different skill. Totally. DS: Yeah, totally different skill. Yeah. And you can do both. That’s the thing. Look, if I’m if I’m interviewing someone, it’s not about me. It’s about them. The show is about you. The show is not about me. And since my show’s comedy show, I’ll interject and I know there’s certain times where if I say this right now, I’m gonna get a huge laugh. Then sometimes I’m feeling particularly funny. And that’s what you want it to be. You want it to be a conversation, but at the same time, I don’t want to overpower them. I don’t want to dominate it unless somebody is super shy and doesn’t want to talk. AW:  So in the, in the context of a live improv comedy show. You’re thinking, well, the audience just wants to be entertained, right? If you’re an investigative journalists and you’re they’re being paid to get information from someone and they refuse. That’s tough. Yeah, I keep thinking that third context is a job interview. The person is not talking. Well, they’re not getting the job. DS: No, they’re not getting a job. And it’s funny because, you know, when you ask people to do the show, I said, Sure. And then you were talking about job interviews. I can’t remember the last time I was on a job interview. But I do auditions for things, which is, I think, worse. AW:   that’s tough. DS: It’s tough, but I haven’t been in a job interview in a long time. And I think, you know, the older you get, the more it’s like, whatever. You know what I mean? Like dating. It’s a job interview. AW:  True, right? DS: And when I moved back to Toronto, I started dating again, and I thought, I’m just me. I’m not going to pretend anything, because if you don’t like me, and I don’t like you, what is the point? AW:  Exactly. DS: You know, I’m wasting your time. I’ve been in a bad marriage. Had some bad relationships, some good relationships. And it’s like the good relationships are where people who loved me for who I was. Not trying to change me. I’m going to be me. I don’t want to go three months and you find out Oh, this is really you. AW:  and I’ve heard that exact advice. Which is tough to do for a job interview. One of my recent guests suggested creating a 60 second infomercial about yourself that is totally honest about your capabilities and your goals. DS: Yeah. AW:  And making sure that if you’re in a job interview that you’re holding true to your personal values. The 60 second infomercial is kind of the same thing when you’re dating. DS: Yeah. AW:  Who do you think are the best interviewers that you listen to? or read or observed? DS: Yeah, you know, it’s funny because you sent me an email saying, Oh, this one question. Someone asked you, I thought, oh, who are the best interviewers and, unfortunately, to the people that I used to really love watching interviews, they were exposed during #MeToo. AW:   really? DS:  yeah, Charlie Rose. AW:  Okay. DS: so l loved Charlie Rose. And Tavis Smiley who I literally did a Google search. oh, Tavis Smiley. He did some stuff too. AW:  Okay, so I have to tell you this then. One of the best interviews I ever saw in my life. In fact, I got my kids to watch it – was Jian Ghomeshi interviewing Carrie Fisher. Phenomenal. DS: Yeah. AW:  And what a guy? DS: Yeah. AW:  So I told you, I wanted to ask you, what are some of the things that you do in advance of an interview? And we’ve talked about it a little bit, right? You’d like to talk to the person you’re going to interview to see if there’s anything … DS: It’s usually through email. Back in the early days of the show, somebody would do a pre interview. AW:  Yeah. What do you think about pre interviews? DS: It makes sense. I mean, well, if you do if you take a late night TV show, you have something to talk, you’re trying to make people laugh and engage them. And you know, if someone’s coming on to promote something, you to talk about that, but you just can’t talk about that. You need some stories. I’ll email people saying, Is there anything you’d particularly want to talk about or don’t want to talk about? Because there might be something I want to talk about? I don’t want to talk about – Jen Whalen. She said just don’t ask me about how we all met. Because I’ve been asked that to death. So I’d so I asked her on the show, When you do press in the States, what’s the one question that you’re sick of? AW:  Good question. DS:  So I thought I’d put it that way. You know, because as she goes, it’s her origin story. We’ve told it so many times, and I get that. Dave Thomas. When I interviewed him, he had no issue telling me about how Bob & Doug McKenzie came about. Yeah, I could hear the joy in his voice. It had to be a phone interview, but he had no issue retelling that old story. AW:  So it’s: what do you want to talk about? What do you not want to talk about? What’s off limits? And then I love your also your point about: Do you have any great stories? Don’t tell me the story … DS: Sometimes people are like, how did you know this? And I’m like, a lot of its on Wikipedia. I’ll do research depending on the person, there might be a lot of information online. If they’re an author, I’ll probably get the book, Linda McQuaid. I bought her last book. We talked about that. AW:  You know, I’ve been reading a lot of books recently from people that I’m interviewing and I love it. I’m reading more… I don’t, I wouldn’t say I’m reading it more intensely, because I generally do read to learn. But it’s it’s a totally different angle to reading something when you know you’re going to be talking to the author later. DS: Yeah, because things will come up. You’ll definitely find lots of questions and things to talk about and it could be, how did you think about this? Yeah. So you have to do research. Some people are more off the cuff, but I like to be prepared. And by that, I mean, I try and write a flow to the questions. AW:  What about during the interview? DS: So, try to ask open ended questions, try to make the guest comfortable and relaxed. Is there anything in your head that you’re thinking, to make this the best it can be? I need to try to focus on that. And I’ll try and engage if there’s something I like, because there might be a follow up question or might lead to something else or it might lead into a question I have. AW:  So focus and listening. DS: You really have to listen, you know, everything is about listening. Yes. And you can’t get distracted. I got distracted. I told you when I was interviewing you, I got distracted because there was a band playing downstairs, because we’re recording the show for podcast and there’s band music and I got really upset. But I could you know, I knew enough of what you were saying. And as well I have my script of questions. And that’s the other thing. Don’t be afraid. It’s not uncommon where you get caught in a flow of conversation. You look at your paper and you just ask that question or where’s the next question that makes sense. So flip a page, It’s not a big deal. Right? AW:  You know, it takes some confidence to do that, though. DS: And knowing that, you know, this will take three seconds, the audience isn’t gonna care if I take three seconds to find a good question or looking at my page. And like you said on a podcast, you can edit that out. Or for a TV show. They can do another take. They might retake something. I do want to come back to the good interviewers, though, because there’s so much to talk about. AW:  Yeah, tell me who… So you said the two that you were gonna … DS: well, Charlie Rose, and Tavis Smiley, were two of my favorite interviewers. And the reason being that people are always being just themselves. Their guard is down. But on Charlie Rose, everyone let the guard down. It seemed so with Tavis Smiley. And I remember particularly Howard Stern, years ago being on on Charlie Rose, and just here’s the real guy, not the guy you hear on the radio. This is really him just letting his guard down. I think today, Howard Stern is one of the best interviewers. And it’s interesting because you look at Tavis Smiley and Charlie Rose, who you find all these things about that… These guys are a disgrace. Howard Stern for years was considered by lots to be a pig. But he’s gone through all this therapy. And he really just engages people in interviews. His interviews are excellent. I don’t know if you saw his interview with Hillary Clinton? AW:   No. DS: He wanted to have her on before the election because he said, I really think I could have humanized her to a lot of voters. He was all for her. Trump asked Stern into introduce him at the convention, and he’s like, I’m for Hillary. Yeah. And what does it feel so you’re there on the day is when he’s getting sworn in and she’s just very, she let her guard down? Well, when celebrities come on as well, they all let their guard down. He just he really – he cares . He cares. And he’s interested. He’s not necessarily keeping to his script, but I’m sure there’s some people doing some research. AW:  Oh, yeah, he’s prepared, but he’s also really smart. But you know what? It sounds… I keep thinking of the word charming. Yeah, these other two guys right? Jian Ghomeshi and Howard Stern. They’re all charming. DS: Yeah, I never thought of those terms for any of those people. But I guess it does apply. AW:  So charming in the sense that it’s almost like wow, he’s paying attention to me and he’s really interested in what I have to say. DS: Well, that’s the thing is the interview should be about you, right? They should do less of the talking and let you ask you a question that you can just talk about, and get you to feel comfortable. AW:  Maybe to be a good interviewer you want to you want to charm the person, not even not a nice, smarmy way. DS: I’m sure there’s some people who’ve been out there have been good at it. I mean, obviously, Charlie Rose, and he did things that were very questionable. And I do listen to Marc Maron’s podcast WTF. If there’s someone I’m interested in, if there’s someone who I like to hear what they have to say. His interviews are quite good. AW:  Yeah, I’ve heard a few of those. DS: You know, you should listen to the Will Ferrell interview with Marc Maron. It’s talking about failure, a lot of Conan too. A lot of them talk about failure. So I think people like to see that other people have the same anxieties. These famous people are nervous about the same things. I think Marc Maron’s podcast is good. So is Howard Stern. AW:   Conan O’Brien does that – kind of divulging the inadequacies that he may feel? I’ve heard him.. DS: yeah and Howard Stern said that that was his best interview ever. He named Conan as the best interview ever. They felt, he felt they really connected. It was a big deal. And I bought his book, but I haven’t read it yet. It’s his latest book, which is all interviews. He says this is my legacy – it’s my greatest achievement. The thing is, it’s the tone of the interviews, but and that’s the thing … everybody. Everybody lets their guard down with him. You know, and I think it’s because they trust him. We like Charlie Rose. People trusted him. AW:  So I don’t mind making myself vulnerable here. Before we move on to the five rapid fire questions. I have a question for you that I did not pre issue. DS: That’s okay. I’m fine. AW:  But I want you to know that I am comfortable in you being completely honest. Do you have any advice for me on interviewing? DS: just be yourself. Don’t worry if you flub something and don’t worry. Don’t worry about it. If you have a bad episode, who cares? If you … it’s like, I can’t bear this. Who cares? Then don’t didn’t release it! When I was in broadcasting school there they were like, it’s not … they kept saying it’s not brain surgery. AW:  So we’re going to move on now to the five rapid fire questions. All right, ready? DS: Oh yeah, that’s good. AW:  First question. What are your pet peeves? DS: slow moving people on the subway. In London, you have to move quickly. If you’re like walking up Oxford Street or you’re getting in the tube, and the tourists are just kind of standing there and it’s like, you’ve got to get out of get out of the way. Because the tube is horrible. And everyone just wants to get off the tube. When I’m on the subway here. People are like, Oh, the train is full. Like that’s not full. In London. You haven’t seen full there. It’s almost like London is maybe one half step away from Japan where there’s a guy forcing you on with a stick. Yeah, like you’re that close to people and wow, you know, so yeah, people need to move. AW:  Okay, question number two. What type of learner are you visual, auditory kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? DS: listing and visual, like my cousin, he will talk to this whole time. He reads something in a book and retains it. Whereas if I watch a documentary, I’ll retain it for decades. I’ll retain that information better visually. AW:  Question number three, introvert or extrovert? DS: Bit of both to be honest. And I don’t think that’s a contradiction. There’ll be times where I’m just very quiet. I’m not really that comfortable at parties.  Nope, I’m not great at meeting people. I don’t like awkwardness. AW:  Question number four: communication preference for personal conversations? DS:  Well, now it’s texting. I’d always prefer to talk to people. I never liked emailing people. Sometimes I’d email someone I’d say, Hey, listen, please don’t take any tone in this. There’s no tone intended, because someone could read an email and say, oh, that’s really rude. Whereas on the phone, they don’t hear that because they can hear your tone, right? So if I’m making plans, I’d rather talk to somebody. But given the way things are today, it’s usually text. Sometimes with an emoji, AW:  right, I was just gonna say that. So you add the emoji so people know you’re winky, or … DS: that’s what someone else said to me. Always add an emoji. I was like, I don’t know. At the time I was thinking, I don’t know how to use emojis. And now,… AW:   when we’re done here, we’re going to set up your bitmoji on your phone. DS: I’ve got it!. AW:  Okay, okay. DS: Yeah. AW:  Good. Question number five, podcast or blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? DS: Oh, that’s a good question. Like I said, if it’s someone I want to listen to, like a guest, I’m interested in WTF with Marc Maron. AW:  Okay, yeah. DS: And Greg Proops makes me laugh. AW:  What other podcasts do you subscribe to? DS: Canadaland.  I’m a Patreon member of Canadaland. I think they do some good work that otherwise gets looked over. Oh, sorry. And The Secret Life of Canada, I listen to that as well. Yeah. AW:  Thank you very, very much for sharing your insights with me about interviewing. DS: It was a pleasure. I talked too much. Enjoy editing this! AW:  You’re supposed to talk too much! That’s funny.     THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]             ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. 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Proper posture and breathing can make us better communicators! Dr. Nadine Kelly (YogiMD) shares breathing and posture tips, relaxation techniques (deep breathing, alternate nostril breathing,  combining breathe with a mantra), differences between the parasympathetic (rest & digest) versus the sympathetic (fight or flight) phase, and why nasal breathing is healthier than mouth breathing.   References & Links Dr. Nadine Kelly Website – net Podcast – https://yogimd.net/podcast FB Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/465040207766142/ Recommendations: Seth Godin’s Blog – https://seths.blog/ Dissect Podcast – https://dissectpodcast.com/ Other Posture & Breathing Resources Breathing and posture for effective speaking https://www.fastcompany.com/90354456/these-navy-seal-tricks-will-help-you-perform-better-under-pressure https://hbr.org/2015/06/breathing-is-the-key-to-persuasive-public-speaking https://publicwords.com/2016/09/08/posture-affects-public-speaking-success/ Breathing and posture linked https://www.healthline.com/health/breathe-deeper-improve-health-and-posture#breathingpatterns https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/3-surprising-risks-of-poor-posture https://health.usnews.com/wellness/slideshows/10-ways-poor-posture-can-harm-your-health?slide=4 Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ? Andrea’s email – [email protected]  ? Free Coaching via the Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ? Website – https://talkabouttalk.com ? Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ? “ABCDEs of Communication” –  https://talkabouttalk.com/24-abcdes-of-communication-with-dr-andrea-wojnicki/ ? “Using your Voice with baritone opera singer Bradley Christensen” – https://talkabouttalk.com/2-using-your-voice-with-baritone-opera-singer-bradley-christensen/ ? Private Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Nadine, for joining us here today to talk about how breathing and posture can help us with our communication. Dr. Nadine Kelly: I am very honored to be here, Andrea, thank you for having me. AW: I have to tell you that I’ve been thinking a lot about how this podcast topic in particular is going to make a huge impact, of course, to everybody, whether it’s professional or personal context, but also immediately. NK: Right. AW: Literally, as I’m sitting here, I’m thinking about how I’m breathing and my posture. NK: I’m a very practical girl. So that’s what I believe in. Not just esoteric information, but information that we can really use in our daily lives. AW: Well, I think this has to be at the top of the list. We born with an innate sense of how we should breathe and how we should sit and how we should stand. But I know that there’s also all sorts of research that can inform us about how to do that even better. So let’s get into that. Why don’t we start with breathing? And so my question is, what are the benefits of breathing quote unquote, properly? NK: You’re absolutely correct in saying that as babies – you watch a baby, they know exactly how to breathe. You watch the baby’s belly rising and falling. And that’s really the key to proper breathing. Another thing that I’d like to say is that the body is a beautiful and efficient machine. If we only treat our bodies properly and allow them to do what they naturally do, then our bodies will serve us very well. Everything is also interconnected. So it’s impossible to really isolate one aspect of our mobility or our motility and not talk about other things. Therefore, when I talk about breathing, well, it’s connected with how we use our muscles. It’s connected with the health of our lungs, the health of our hearts, it’s connected to proper posture, it’s connected to circulation, it’s connected to our stress response. It’s connected to our muscular system. So that’s how I’ll preface why we need to breathe properly and how it’s easy to get back into it. It just takes practice. Because I interact with my students. And we’ve talk about breathing so much. I tend to get a lot of feedback where people are very frustrated. And they say, I’m not breathing properly. I don’t get it. I can’t I can’t do this. What’s going on? Here’s the thing: It’s habits. We form habits, and we fall into habits because they’re easy. But once you increase your awareness of how a habit is not serving you, well, you just practice. That’s all. You practice and you take baby steps and you just keep reminding yourself, and then you can get better. AW: Your point about it being easy and taking the stress away or the anxiety away from trying to breathe properly, really resonates because personally and then also with my kids, I know that when I’m in a yoga class, and I’m trying to control my breathing, and sometimes I’ll actually feel adrenaline. The other thing is when I’m talking to my kids and they’re feeling anxious. And I’m giving them a backrub and I’m talking to them about how they’re breathing. They’ll say, Mom, that just makes it worse because now I’m aware of the fact that I’m not breathing. So can you just say expand a little bit more on how to go from awareness to practice? NK: So what I’ll say is the adrenaline and the making it worse, makes a lot of sense, because that’s discomfort. Another layer that I’d like to add to that idea is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So you’re increasing your awareness about something it was comfortable before not to pay attention to your breathing, and now you decide, I would like to feel better. I would like to increase my energy or be able to get to sleep better, whatever your reasons are for wanting to focus on your breathing.  Just now, before the interview, I was doing a very hard cardio workout and the breathing has to change with that. And so yes, I was aware of using my breath properly for my muscles so I could increase the stamina and get through my workout. When you start to raise your awareness of something that used to be comfortable, because you didn’t have to think about it, that’s where the adrenaline and the discomfort comes in. And so then I just invite you to be patient with yourself and recognize, okay, this is going to feel terrible right now, because I’m increasing my awareness. But as I keep practicing, then that starts to go away. And here’s another thing and I’ve noticed this myself, when I fall into old patterns, because I’ve been feeling better with practice in a given situation with my breathing, it doesn’t feel good anymore to fall into that old pattern. So then you start to correct. AW: well, that point is actually really empowering. Thank you. The next time I feel that a little bit of adrenaline and try to breathe I’ll realize that’s my senses waking up and saying something’s new and different and as you said, it might be uncomfortable, but that means you’re preparing yourself to change because you heighten your awareness. NK: That’s a perfect way to put it. Growth is uncomfortable. Change is uncomfortable. AW: Love it. So what happens when we’re not breathing properly? NK: When we’re not breathing properly, we’re not using the correct muscles. A domino effect happens because, again, everything is connected in our bodies. So certain muscles start to hurt. Certain joints start to ache, because they’re feeling pressure or the you’re stressing certain muscle groups more than others balance each other. And so then that’s where the pain starts to come in. That’s where the headaches come in. That’s where the neck pain comes in, then the shoulder pain. So then when you’re in pain, too, then you’re also increasing stress, right? Stress levels go up. Cortisol is increasing your bloodstream. Cortisol has a cascade of effects when we’re secreting cortisol on a chronic basis, such as decreasing your immunity, even making your bones weaker. AW: Wow, yeah, that’s another thing that we don’t necessarily think about. NK: But yes, cortisol does weaken bones, again, it’s a chain effect, AW: what about in terms of our communication as the cortisol pumping through? What could happen to our ability to communicate effectively. And again, this could be physical or something that’s going on inside our brain. NK: So let’s start breaking down the parasympathetic and the sympathetic response. When we are breathing properly, which I’ll talk about in a moment, we are oxygenating our muscles and our circulation correctly. And we are in the parasympathetic aspect of the autonomic nervous system, which is also the rest and digest phase. That’s where we’re supposed to be most of the time. Think about back in early times when we didn’t have the things that we take for granted now, like shelter and food. Food and safety. Those things for which your sympathetic nervous system is going into the fight or flight response. And that’s an emergency response. I’m in danger. I’m starving, I have to protect my family. Nowadays in our society, it’s much easier to be chronically stressed because of our lifestyle. Because we’re stimulated all the time. It’s very, very easy to be stressed. So we find ourselves in the fight or flight response, more the fight or flight response, then it releases the physiological responses, which makes sense because you’re preparing yourself for an emergency. So you’re ready to run, you’re ready to flee, you’re ready to fight. So that means that your heart starts to pump faster, your respiratory rates, you start breathing faster. Yeah, so that’s fight or flight. When you’re in the parasympathetic, rest and digest phase, that’s where you have more mental clarity where your heart is relaxed. It doesn’t have to pump as much as you can breathe at a slower pace. You’re calmer. Now you can think more clearly . You can speak more clearly. You can use your breath more effectively, to speak clearly, to project your voice, to pause to emit confidence. All of those things. AW: So for many of us who are thinking about a communication context, the epitome of when the sympathetic nervous system is really in the fight or flight syndrome would be public speaking, getting up on stage with a mic. Do you have advice for us in terms of how we can manage our breathing to help us in that situation? NK: Yes, it makes a lot of sense. We do need stress in our lives. I don’t want anybody to get that confused. We do need to be energized, a little bit of stress to motivate us to prepare to care about something right. Before I got to you for this podcast interview. I was a little bit nervous. I will fully admit that but that’s because I care. So I was in the sympathetic, ready to go mode, but then your parasympathetic nervous system should kick in so that you can calmly address and be present for your performance. So how would good breathing look in that situation? Well, starting to use the breath, which is diaphragmatic breathing. This is proper breathing, and I’ll break that down – what that means. Our diaphragm is our primary breathing muscle. The diaphragm is attached to your spine, your rib cage and your sternum. And the way we use it for proper breathing is to fully inflate our lungs and fully to deflate the lungs. When we fully inflate the lungs. On the inhale, we are taught as Americans, especially American women, this is where I am, right here in America, to flatten the stomach and squeeze the stomach at all times. But that’s actually counter to the breathing – that’s counter to diaphragmatic (or it’s also known as belly breathing), to inhale that diaphragm that’s attached to the bottom of the rib cages. It’s a cylindrical muscle. So when we take a good inhale, we’re supposed to let our bellies rise if you’re on your back, or in, if you’re sitting or standing, so that your diaphragm can descend a little bit into the abdomen, to make room for the lungs to fully inflate from the apex, which is the very top of the lungs. So the base of the lungs, when we’re doing shallow breathing, and we’re sucking in that stomach, we’re not allowing for the lungs that have room to inflate fully. It’s again, so beautiful because it’s a mechanical thing as well. Air moves from a place of higher to lower pressure. So when we the diaphragm descends, and we make room for the lungs to move down a little bit, that’s creating lower pressure in the lungs so that the air outside can come in more easily. AW: As you’re saying that I’m pushing my belly out as I’m inhaling and I’m feeling that. It’s exactly what you described when you observe a baby sleeping on its back and you can see the belly rising and going down. Exactly. NK: Exactly. Because as you said, it feels good, it’s natural. And then when you exhale, the diaphragm relaxes. And so then the lungs can diminish their capacity, there are other muscles that come into play too, your intercostals. Those are the muscles between your ribs also do help with inhalation and exhalation. So when all those muscles relax, then the volume within the lung goes down. So there’s more pressure inside the lungs than outside. So the exhale is easier. AW: You made an interesting comment about how women are taught or they observe others pulling their stomach in. So I when I think about taking a deep breath, I don’t necessarily think about expanding my belly. I do you think about expanding my chest and maybe even pulling my belly in? What do you say to that? NK: That’s just not the proper mechanics, right? And the reason why we’re taught to do that is for aesthetics. And the aesthetics are – at the end of the day – are not supporting good health, really. So the inhale is supposed to have an expansion widening of the abdomen. And then if you’re doing an active exhale, for instance, as I mentioned earlier, when you need to use your breath with more intensity, with purpose, cardio activity, a walk, lifting things, pushing things, that’s the phase where you draw your navel in towards your side, that’s when you squeeze your belly at the end of the exhale. What is that doing providing core stability. So ladies, if you want to strengthen your core, use your core on your exhale. In classes. I know I keep mentioning this, but in my classes, we practice picking things up or simulating a pushing motion like maybe with a wall push up and it’s at that exhale, when you squeeze your navel with the effort and you push it, then your core is able to remain stable so that your limbs can do their work. Core stabilization supports the movement of your arms and your legs, your hands and your feet. AW: So it’s not that we’re letting our bellies go. It’s just that we’re not bringing them in unless we’re exhaling. NK: Yes. AW: Got it. You will be quoted on that. I promise you. NK: Good. I hope to make some lives better. AW: Yes, you already have! Back to going on stage then. I’m hearing that we need to be consciously inhaling through our bellies. NK: Whatever you find relaxing to do beforehand, however you help yourself. Health is very personal and taking care of yourself I think is a very personal thing. Not everything works for one person versus the other, really. So what do you find relaxing – to relax you – to get you into that parasympathetic state. Here’s another piece of advice. Using a mantra, some people like mantras.  What’s mantra? A word or phrase that’s empowering. I did a very simple one today. I inhaled the word can. And I exhaled the word can’t. The way we talk to ourselves, impacts our well being as well. AW: I really love your idea of combining breathing and a mantra! I brought up (and my other guest experts have brought up) mantras a few times in different contexts. And I think they’re incredibly powerful, but combining a mantra with breathing, that that could be really powerful, I think, especially when you’re walking out on stage. NK: Oh, sure. There are other breathing techniques that you can use to before a performance, not just diaphragmatic breathing. Another way you can practice that diaphragmatic breathing if you’re not sure about it? If you’re not in a sitting or standing position, is to lie down on your back or your bed or wherever and place your hands on your abdomen. Let yourself feel your hands lifting towards the ceiling on the inhale and descending on the exhale. You can also move a hand to the chest and one to the belly, so that you can really feel the belly moving under the one hand and make sure you don’t feel as much movement or it’s not focused on your chest. So that’s one breath technique.  There are other breath techniques, like alternate nostril breathing, where you breathe through one nostril at a time. It’s very relaxing. AW: Do you put a finger over your other nostril ? NK: Do you want to practice? AW: Absolutely. NK: So what you’re going to do is you’re going to take your right hand and make a peace sign. AW: Okay. NK: Turn those two fingers in towards you and place them right in the center slightly above your eyebrows on your forehead. Your thumb will close off your right nostril and your ring finger will close off your left nostril, obviously one at a time. So we begin the breath, alternate nostril breath by closing off the right nostril with the thumb. Then you exhale. Then inhale only on the left, close it off with the ring finger, open up the right nostril, exhale through the right, only inhale on the right, and switch back. So that’s one round. AW: Okay. Alternate Nostril Breathing! NK: Exhale first and inhale. And you can do that five to nine times. That’s alternate nostril breathing. Another relaxing technique, breath technique, is extending the exhale to a ratio of about two to one. So you would count and I always like to begin equal. So if I pick a number like four, which is easy, inhale on four and exhale on four. Then you can work your way into keeping the inhale at four and extending it to eight. AW:  Got it. So your two examples that you gave us there of breathing exercises to help us relax more… it reminded me of something that I heard, when I was doing a little bit of research. There are some people who say we shouldn’t be focusing on breathing, because a lot of people will end up holding their breath. So the real lesson there is :don’t hold your breath, really? NK: Exactly. But you do have to be aware of your breathing because in one article I read, it was written by an opera singer, and he said that on your exhales, is where you want to be able to complete a sentence. So as you’re working on your exhale, you’re talking, and then when you’re done with that sentence, you inhale. With that exhale, you’re using your breath, so that you can project your voice to the audience. And he said that gets rid of the question at the end of the sentence. That doesn’t sound very confident.  Also, it gets rid of the vocal fry, because he said, that’s not enough breath at the end. I thought that, that opened my eyes to learn that, right? So do use your breath again effectively to present yourself in a particular situation, whether it’s speaking or as I mentioned, whether it’s in yoga. That’s why we do so much breath work, so that we can make our way through range of motion or transitioning to another pose. And then in a cardio situation, you still need to have a rhythm to your breath in order to provide proper oxygenation to your muscles to improve stamina. So again, you’re using your breath in a different situation right? AW: Right. That makes that makes a lot of sense. When I read this article, I thought they were just being sensationalist. The real point there is just don’t hold your breath and nowhere when you were talking about how to relax your breathing to help with your performance. You didn’t say anything about holding your breath, right? So it was all inhaling and exhaling. So let me move on then to a few different types of breathing. So my first question is about mouth breathing versus nasal breathing. So I’m curious whether there are different effects of them. And I say, anecdotally, I’ve heard people make fun of quote, unquote, mouth breathers, but then recently, I’ve been hearing and reading things about how reading through your mouth in some context may actually be advised. NK: Anyone who knows me knows I love simplicity. One of my teachers said, this is the most simple and elegant way, and she said, this is how she talks to kids, “Your mouth is for eating and speaking, your nose is for breathing.” So now we have an easy way to start the discussion. Right? AW: That’s easy to remember. NK: It is. There are reasons why it’s healthier to breathe in and out through your nose and they are your nasal passages. That’s the direct way to inhale and exhale to get in and out of your lungs directly. Period. There are also –  almost like tunnels – flowing in to the nasal passages and into the respiratory system. Because the air is coming in and you want a little bit of turbulence because there are mechanics that are going on to make what gets into your lungs the healthiest, the breath that gets into your lung the healthiest. So your nasal passages are engineered to because of the lining the cilia in there. The cilia are hair like projections that filter out particles that are in the environment. The nasal passages also humidify the air that’s going into the lungs. To adjust proper temperature for what’s getting into your lungs as well. The nasal passages also warm the air that’s coming into the lungs. And then there’s a molecule nitric oxide that’s only made in the respiratory tract so you don’t get that if you open your mouth and breathe in and out. Get that into your nose and nitric oxide is powerful because and necessary because it’s a vasodilator. I’m going to repeat this again, I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but our bodies are engineered to just beautiful things when we use them, right. So the nitric oxide is there to help the vessels dilate. It relaxes the lining of the vessels in your lungs. So that the alveoli which are the – they’re grape-like clusters at the very end, the smallest possible unit in your lungs, where the oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange takes place. That has to take place over a membrane. So think about it. If you have an agent like nitric oxide, which relaxes those vessels, then the blood flows easier. And so the gas exchange is going to be easier. That’s why breathing through your nose is more effective than breathing through your mouth. AW: Wow, thank you so much. I ‘ve learned so much! Honestly, I thought it was just a social thing. I had no idea that there were all these physiological reasons. I knew there were some physiological reasons why nasal or nose breathing might be preferred… But thank you. NK: I think part of that derogatory way of looking at mouth breathers comes about too is because there are mechanical things that happen when you breathe through your mouth predominantly. The shape of your face shifts. AW: Really? NK: Yeah, because that’s not what we’re supposed to be doing when we breathe. AW: That makes sense. And I am so self conscious now of how I’m breathing. Let’s move on to posture then. Can you start with the benefits of proper posture? NK: Let’s think about it just from what other see. Think about someone… And this is really important for women to think about this for safety reasons. Picture one person walking in a parking lot slouching.  Picture another woman walking in the parking lot erect. She’s looking around, she’s alert. A person who is likely to approach either one is going to choose the easiest target, the one who keeps looking down at the floor. So, I like to tell women – I have two daughters – So I like to tell them: nice tall posture so that you emit confidence. You emit being alert and aware. So that’s one thing from a psychological standpoint. The other thing is from a physical standpoint, good posture means that your muscles are working in cohesion. Your core muscles in the front of your abdominal muscles, all the layers of your abdominal muscles, your obliques on the sides, and all of the deep layers of your back muscles which all help support your core are all working together. If you slouch, then you’re putting pressure on your back muscles and your abdominal muscles are getting weak. So there’s an imbalance here. When you have muscular imbalance. Your muscles are not supporting your skeleton. You’re going to get misaligned. People with arthritis may worsen their pain, or you may even create arthritis – arthritis is because of the space between the joints wearing. So if you’re not aligning your bones properly, you’re increasing the chances of developing arthritis in those joints. As I said, muscular pain, you’re not breathing properly, because again, you’re not able to really access your diaphragm as well. Your ribcage is misaligned when you’re slouching and your energy levels, all that stuff that I just said, is going on. How can you be energetic when you’re in pain? It’s going to be more fatiguing. AW: Wow. NK: So I can go on and on. You have more anxiety, it increases anxiety. AW: really? NK: everything’s connected. Yes. AW: Okay. So why don’t you take me and the listeners through what proper posture looks like and feels like? NK:  Oh, I’d love to. Okay. Let’s start with sitting, because that’s what a lot of people find themselves doing. Although I would encourage you to get up every hour for a few minutes. But when you are sitting, it’s very important because it’s very easy to let ourselves develop a habit of slouching, and then gravity doesn’t help, because then it’s encouraging you to slouch further. And if you’re like us doing a lot of work in our computer, just keep reminding yourself to sit up nice and tall. AW: How do we sit nice and tall? NK: First of all, having your feet flat on the floor. AW: okay NK: …and making sure that the feet are positioned properly. So there’s positioning and then there’s muscular engagement, they go hand in hand. So here, let’s go through positioning first, feet flat on the floor, and when you look down at your feet, you make sure that they are parallel to one another. Another way to think of this – I’m a visual person – is the number 11. So your toes point straight ahead. Other alignment: you’re stacking your joints properly, ankles are underneath knees. And then let’s think about the positioning of our pelvis. So you’re not tilting your pelvis forward or tilting it too far back, it has to be like Goldilocks: just right. So if you think about your sits bones, which are the clinical term is ischial, tuberosities. AW: Wow,. NK: You should be balancing on those two points. Okay. So, another way to think about this is that your pelvis is a bucket. You don’t want your bucket tilted to forward or too far back. You can touch the front of your pelvis, your hip bones and make sure they are pointing straight ahead. AW: Okay. NK: Those are called your anterior superior iliac crests. Then you stack shoulders over your hips. Your shoulders are a little bit back. And how do you do that? Think about your shoulder blades. slide them down away from your ears, and slowIy squeeze towards one another until you feel your shoulders lined up in their sockets. AW: got it. NK: Then there are a few ways to think about head position, let’s use a couple of cues. The crown of your head touches the ceiling so that you can create length and space in your neck. And then think about the position of your head. If you take a line and draw it directly down the center of your ear, that line should intersect or bisect your shoulder in half. Okay, so ear over shoulder. You can also think of back of the head lining up with the back of the pelvis. That’s another cue. And then your hands are relaxed in your lap, either palms down or palms up. AW: Got it. NK: So that’s a proper sitting mountain pose in terms of alignment. Now, muscle engagement was the second part. You’re using your muscles in your everything together. In order to maintain a proper posture. You’re using your muscles in your feet. You’re using the leg and thigh. To keep your knees stacked over your ankles, you’re using all of the muscles in your torso to keep your shoulders over your hips. You’re using your neck muscles all together to keep your neck nice and long. Front, sides and back. And you’re relaxing your face. That’s always the last part. So that’s a seated Mountain Pose. And we call it mountain because what does that evoke? That evokes height. AW:  Altitude. NK: Yeah, so you want to sit nice and tall. And it’s a practice. Sometimes I find myself getting really engrossed in what I’m doing at the computer, and I start to lean. But because I’ve been practicing, it starts to hurt. And so I bring myself back to that nice seated posture or just stand up. You know, the standing desks to me are good because it reminds you not to slouch forward as well. Now, standing mountain pose is very similar to what I just described, except now you’re on your feet. So you’re stacking your ankles under knees under hips under shoulders. Now because we’re not sitting, we’re using the feet and the leg and the thigh muscles a little bit differently. Here’s something to watch out for. Okay? Don’t lock your knees. Don’t stiffen and lock your knees .Soften them just a touch so that you can start to feel your thigh muscles – front and back and sides and your buttocks also help. We forget that our buttocks are part of our core. AW: Makes sense. It’s at the core of our body. That is very helpful. I’m going to be aware now. You know, I thanked my mother recently for sticking her fingernail in my spine whenever I slouched and I think I have pretty good posture and I’m the same as you. When I’m feeling tired or a little uncomfortable when I’m working. I often realize it is my posture, but going through that alignment, literally from your toes up to the top of your head. I found it incredibly helpful and I’m going to be even more aware and informed now about my posture. NK: So yes, it’s good to remind yourself to sit up nice and tall. But why was I doing that? It can be very simple as I just forgot, and I’m falling into a bad habit. But if you find yourself having a difficult conversation, or you want to talk about a difficult subject with someone you really care about, what is your posture, saying? What are you setting yourself up for success? is some of the things that I’ve really learned myself thinking about. This idea of everything being connected,… if I can breathe, I just had a difficult conversation with some family members. everyone listening I’m sure knows that’s the worst. You go into something and you really care about someone. You do want to listen with empathy, but you know, it’s going to be a difficult talk. And emotions are going to run high. What can you do? Think about your breathing. Pay attention to your posture as you’re talking so that you can think. And you don’t let yourself go into fight or flight response because you’re hyperventilating. Or you find yourself holding your breath because you’re giving into feelings of powerlessness or anger. If you’re able to just bring yourself back to the breath, then sit nice and tall and listen. I had a much better time with that talk. AW: That’s amazing. That’s a really really powerful message. I think. NK: When I went into that situation last weekend, it was with intent. AW: You gave me an incredible testimonial once about the ABCDE’s of Communication. I don’t know if you remember that? So A is ASKING questions. B is BREATHING. C is acting CONFIDENT, D is no DISTRACTIONS – focusing. And E is using your EARS and listening. And you just … NK: We did all five things. And listen, I talked to my girls about it. And one of my girls used it to talk to her dad about something which he was not going to be happy about. But how else can you really maintain healthy relationships with people you really care about? If you don’t have the intent to go in there with the ABCDEs? They work. So you’ve got another testimonial. I used it again without even thinking about it. It worked. So now you understand a little bit more about the breathing component and the confidence component, right? AW: Before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, is there anything else you want to add about posture or breathing? NK: It’s cheap, it’s easy. It’s just a habit that you can do. All you have to do is practice so that you can feel better, to breathe better, to stand better, to sit better to be better in the world – to project the person you want to be in the world, rather than having life happen to you. So that’s the simplest piece of advice I would give to why you should care about improving your breathing and your posture. AW: Beautiful. Thank you. Okay, we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions now if you don’t mind. First question, what are your pet peeves? NK: It just, it’s silly, but Okay, I’ll just say it. Those people who don’t eat with their mouths closed. And lately as I’m getting older, being okay with being ignorant. When I encounter a person who doesn’t mind being ignorant, who doesn’t want to learn anything, or thinks that the world is just black and white? It’s hard for me to practice empathy. I’m working on it, but it is a pet peeve. Just people who are okay with ignorance. AW: Oh, wow. Question number two, what type of learner are you? Visual, auditory or kinesthetic or some other kind of learner? NK: I am definitely solidly kinesthetic, and visual. Oh my goodness, yes, I am not an auditory learner, AW: which makes the fact that you’re a podcaster even more fascinating! NK: Yes, but remember what I said about the ignorance. It was an opportunity for me to learn to strengthen that weak muscle. So I said, Okay, let’s do this. AW: This is one thing that is very, very apparent about you is that you are very engaged in self improvement and education and knowledge. NK: It’s a very important to me, and very important. Yeah. AW: Okay, question number three introvert or extrovert? NK: I think a good solid mix of both. I used to think I wasn’t extroverted but I don’t think you can be a podcaster and not be extroverted to a certain extent. I know that I couldn’t be the good teacher that I am. I don’t think that I could be the excellent teacher that I am, without being an extrovert. It’s about relationships. I think introvert because I do need alone time. I do need those times where I have no stimulation from anyone or anything. AW: Question number five, your communication preference for personal conversations. NK: I’m still old fashioned. I really like face to face. I like to see body language I like to there’s so much you miss in written communication, or it’s easy to miscommunicate because you don’t have those emotional or those tactile cues. So I still like to look a person and his or her eyes. I like to see how the shoulders are. I like to hear the tone in the voice. And quite frankly, I think it takes courage. I’m not a cop-out. So, and I know this sounds judgmental, but I feel like it’s easy to sit back and write something in a text. Think about it, shorten it, not send it, reword it. Versus, in real time when you have to look at a person and really think about what you’re saying, really control yourself and use those ABCDEs. I think, I think you’ve just gained more… We’re people – at the end of the day. We need to connect, we need to communicate, we need each other. And that happens to me most beautifully in person. AW: Last question, not including your podcast or mine. Is there a podcast or a blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? NK: I read Seth Godin’s blog religiously. And in terms of a podcast, one of my favorite podcasts is Dissect. I love music and the way he combines all the things that I love about being a person. He doesn’t take the easy road and just do kind of expected music. He’ll take one album, most of the time by hip hop artists, who it’s easy to, to write off. Oh, that’s just this type of music. I don’t listen to this type of music, all of these preconceived notions. And he says, I want you to challenge that. He goes through every song on the album, and he dissects it, why they make certain musical choices, why they picked certain instruments, the lyrics, the history, what was going on socially, as a contextual element around that particular song. What it means what some of the slang means, and at the end of it, if you didn’t have empathy or thought you you’re a black and white idea, a way of thinking made sense. You come up new learning so much about this person and why he made these choices, why the music is intelligent, why it’s so beautiful. And how music is such a universal language, that you’re just a better human being, I think listening to his show. AW: Wow. Wow, what a heartfelt recommendation that is. I mean, I haven’t even heard the podcast and already I’m thinking about people I’m going to be recommending it to. It’s called Dissect? NK: Dissect. AW: Okay, I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add about posture, about communication, about breathing, about yoga, anything? NK: I think underlying the messages we’ve been talking about today is just not being afraid to increase your self-awareness. It’s uncomfortable. And sometimes you do look in the mirror and you learn something about yourself through a yoga class or in a situation where you didn’t do your best or it didn’t go the way you wanted it to go. You let yourself overreact. But it’s just an opportunity to learn more about yourself. Be uncomfortable with that. Maybe you had a preconceived notion. I’m not the type of person who says x or does x. Well, given a particularly stressful situation, maybe you did revert to that. Maybe you did learn something about yourself, but it’s an opportunity for growth. And so I always love to encourage everyone to do the work of increasing self-awareness.  To be the best person you can in this world. AW: Very, very nicely put, I think we will leave it at that. Thank you very much Nadine! NK: Thank you.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: [email protected]           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. 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Do you know how to tell your story effectively? The story you tell could be at work in conversation with your boss, in a job interview, or perhaps you seek to write a novel? Best-selling author and legal veteran Norman Bacal shares how stories are impactful because they connect us through our emotions and life experiences, how the best lawyers are the best storytellers, why we should all have a rehearsed 60 second infomercial about ourselves, the process of writing fiction and non-fiction, how to address the media, and the power of metaphors.   References & Links Norman Bacal Website – https://normanbacal.com/ LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/norman-bacal-16772a23/ “Breakdown” by Norman Bacal – https://amzn.to/2Rk4DHd “Odell’s Fall” by Norman Bacal – https://amzn.to/36ndGet Recommended book: “TRUE FIT: How to Find the Right Job by Being You” by Jim Beqaj- https://amzn.to/2R8rd5e Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ? LISTENING with author, consultant & best-selling author Norman Bacal (podcast episode #41) – https://talkabouttalk.com/41-listening-with-norman-bacal/ ? STORYTELLING with Harvard professor & author Jerry Zaltman (podcast episode #11) – https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ ? Subscribe to the Podcast: https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe ? Andrea’s email – [email protected] ? Free Weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup ? Website – https://talkabouttalk.com ? Private Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us, Norman. Norman Bacal: Oh, thank you for having me. AW: If you don’t mind, I’d like to start with some background. I’m curious. Were you always a writer? NB: It’s an interesting question, because it’s got two answers to it. If you had asked me before my 40th birthday or earlier, did I ever think I would write a book? The answer was never. But I actually started my career doing a lot of writing, particularly as a student and young lawyer. My boss was asked to give many speeches, and he had to publish articles and I pretty much wrote all of them for him. So I did a lot of writing early in my career. I wrote my first technical article when I was about a fifth year lawyer. It had to do with actors coming to Canada. So I did a fair amount of writing in the first – probably 10 years of my career. And then as my career advanced, as I became more successful, I discovered what successful lawyers discover, and that is your phone never stops ringing. You spend most of your time either in meetings or on the phone. And all the writing is now done by junior lawyers who are working for you. Then as I advanced forward into management that continued even further, so the higher up I got in the organization, the shorter my attention span got, the less writing I did. And as I said, by my 40th birthday, the one thing I knew for sure was that I was never going to write a book. I was reading good authors on vacation. I can remember the moment it happened to me, I was reading The English Patient by Michael Ondaatje – and I read it I put the book down, at about the halfway point, and I looked at my wife, and I said, I will never write a book. AW: Oh, you explicitly said that? NB: Yes. AW: that’s amazing. NB: But career goals change. AW: Did you ever keep a journal or any kind of – write anything personal like that before? NB: I kept a journal for six weeks when I was 19 years old on a trip to Israel. I actually filled one of those empty books with writing and that was my summer goal. And from that point on, I never lifted a pen. No interest. Although once I became a managing partner at Heenan Blaikie, I said, you know, it would be really smart to just keep a regular journal of not only what I was going through, but what my feelings were and, and the events. And of course I did none of that. AW: Right. I think many of us have good intentions. NB: I can’t tell you how many people I’ve run into who say “I’m sure I have a book in me.” Well, sure, so you can get it out. AW: And we’ll get into that. Most people do have a story. NB: Right. AW:  So one other question. Just focused on what you said about the career trajectory, perhaps of a typical lawyer. Do you think that lawyers generally make good writers? NB: I would say probably we’re above average, if you look at the population in terms of writing skills. Because just to survive law school, you have to be able to write. One of the key things that you’re taught, one way or the other, is how to communicate, particularly in writing. And as a young lawyer, particularly if you’re being trained properly, there’s somebody watching you all the time and making very certain you are very precise. AW:  So I’m just going to add this quote here from your book on page seven, you talk about Danny, who taught you to be meticulous, and this is the quote. He says, “Every word has a meaning and every meaning must be applied with precision. Ideas are meant to be expressed in a particular way. As lawyers we craft with words, and our task is to master them.” NB: I don’t think he particularly meant written word as opposed to spoken word. AW: He meant both? NB: Yeah. But he particularly stressed – It was interesting, because Peter Blaikie was probably one of the best litigators that the province of Quebec ever produced. And he actually ran for office a couple of times even. He ran for the leadership of the party. Peter’s name was on the door, the law firm. He was magnificent in court, and he could take a losing argument and find a way to convince a judge that it was the winning argument. But Danny was a big stickler.  Anyone can walk into a courtroom with bad facts, create an argument that will fool someone for a short period of time. But it’s only by writing them down and capturing them that you’re able to prove that it works. Because on review, your words aren’t going to hide somewhere. They’re there, they will always be there on the page. AW: So I know this is getting technical, but when you’re in a court of law, it is being transcribed. Right? So it is it is formally documented. NB: Yes, but, and I was not a litigator for a living. I litigated, I think, seven cases in my entire career, and they were all early on. But the one thing I’ve discovered, and this was much later in my career, is that success in a courtroom, the people who are the greatest successes are the best storytellers. And it’s not just about who has the best legal brief. It’s sometimes about who tells the best story, who conveys the story, and actually captures the emotion. Because judges are human. They are subject to the same frailties. And when two parties come to court, very often the judge is looking for – it’s not necessarily who wins on the legal technicality, but more so who in his heart or her heart-of-hearts ought to win, based on the details of the case. So if you understand how to tell the story, to tug on those heartstrings, you probably have a much better success record in court than anyone else. AW: What are some techniques or tactics that a great litigator, for example, might use in crafting that story? NB: It starts and ends with storytelling, to be able to take a boring set of facts and convey them in a way that captures the judges’ attention. And litigators will tell you this, you can’t afford to lose the judge. The judges are human. They’ve shut their brains down. They’re no longer listening to you. I did some studies. I discovered the average attention span is eight minutes. And at the end of a courtroom, or anyone, anywhere, the average person’s attention span is: they will start to drift after a few minutes unless you come up with little tricks to keep their attention going. AW: So be honest, eight minutes is higher than I thought. NB: Well, in this in the computer age, maybe it’s down to two. AW: Yeah. NB: But if you can’t figure out a way to continue to be interesting, and to tap into people’s emotions, you know, no one is ever going to remember what you said when you make a speech, but they will always remember how they felt when they left the room. AW: I’ve heard that. That’s absolutely brilliant. Okay, maybe one of the most important strategies or tactics for developing a good story is to make people feel emotions, bring them on an emotional journey. NB: You have to take them on the journey you have, and I’ve certainly learned this writing fiction, you have to be able to tap into their experience. So it’s not just your experience. Most people are, you know, they have one subject that interests them far more than any other subject and that’s themselves. So you need to be able to get there to get into their heads to tap into some story that you’re not even telling, but that parallels some story they’ve lived. Great litigators also know how to read people. So you have to read your judge. You know, when you’re losing someone, and I can’t tell you how many lawyers I’ve met, that are completely self-unaware, that they just cannot read people. And if you can’t read people, you can’t possibly win a case. AW: This is leading a little bit into listening, which is another topic that we’re talking about. But I have to say when I read Breakdown, I had a slightly positive bias coming in because I had met you on the phone and I know people that think very highly of you. So I found Breakdown to be incredibly relevant and compelling. And you know, I consciously wasn’t thinking of myself in the story, but I probably was thinking about what I would do. Anyway, it is absolutely a fantastic story. And the fact that it’s real, makes it all the more compelling. So shifting to your writing of this story. I have a question about when you were living the story before you started writing it. Did you ever think yourself, “this is a story that needs to be told?” NB: The simple answer to that question is absolutely not. When you are living a crisis, you are living it, you are breathing it, you are taking it to bed with you. You are either sharing it with your loved ones or you’re not. And if you’re not, you’re become slowly but surely this horrible person that’s going through this on your own. But ultimately, the stress of going through a difficult situation. And for us, it was a business breakdown. But the case of other people’s? It could be sickness, or losing a loved-one, or some crisis in your life. You’re focused on only one thing, and that’s getting through the next day. And you might have a path forward in terms of where you think it needs to go. And in my case, that becomes the only driving force in your life. Put everything else aside, this is all you’re going to deal with. There’s no notion that one day I’m going to write a book about it. And even as it was failing, and even in the early days post failure, people would come to me and say, “well, that must have been quite an experience to live through!” And I can remember my thinking was, because they’re trying to make you feel better. And they’re saying, “well, it’ll make you stronger”. And I’m thinking to myself as well, “you live through this and you get stronger – because I can’t see how this is ever going to make me stronger.” And why? Because when you’re in it, and even in the post stress of living through it afterwards, you can’t see anything good coming out of something like this. AW: I was questioning whether I should actually even ask you that question. Because as a director of the firm, you are responsible for a strategic level of oversight and direction. But then to have that even higher level of meta thinking like, in my life, what does this experience represent? It’s crazy because your very survival depended on what your course of action was and what your direction was to the firm. NB: So it was interesting. It was fairly simple. If we’re going to jump forward to the end days, just for people who haven’t read the book. There was a one-year period where I was out of management and literally I was a spectator to this, which was probably the worst part. First of all, because it’s one thing when you believe you have the power in your hands to affect the outcome, it’s quite another when you’re a passenger on the ship and you see it’s beginning to sink. And you know, it’s in the hands of a captain, you just cross your fingers and hope they know what they’re doing. And each day starts to feel a little more bleak when you as you slowly come to the realization that things are not getting better. So for a quite a long period of time, I was quite powerless and that is probably the worst possible feeling in the world. I have to say in the final two months, when I step back into a leadership position, the ship was halfway sunk at that point in time. It was. And I’m, in some respects, a little bit embarrassed to say, it was the most exciting and invigorating experience I’ve ever lived. Because here I was with the opportunity to step in. I did a one-week analysis as to how to save the patient. I came up with a plan. I became extremely enthusiastic that we could actually pull this off, that we could save the firm, that life would go on and that things would be okay again. And the adrenaline rush coming from those feelings carried me for almost two months. And in that period I used to feel almost a euphoria. Like I’d say, I’d probably liken it to feeling like Superman. I can do anything. I can do this. We are going to succeed and why? Because your brain cannot allow for an even an inch of doubt. Because as soon as you start doubting yourself, you’re finished. Right? So I had to believe, and this is Norman, in hindsight, looking back, as opposed to Norman prospectively looking at it. I had to believe that this was going to be a success that we were going to be fine. And it wasn’t about ego so much as here’s just one more challenge in my life. I can pull this off. AW: well, you would have regretted it if you hadn’t tried that. NB: I can’t even imagine not trying. AW: So you said that in the couple of weeks after the firm ceased to exist legally, that everyone was coming to you and consoling you. They had words of wisdom to share. And you just kept thinking, “This was such a horrific experience. Why don’t you try it?” You know, you want to talk about resilience! What was your main inspiration to write the story? NB: My entire adult life was attached to the firm. I spent the last 25 years of my life building it. To me, building it meant the name Heenan Blaikie was on the wall of the building where it was sitting along with the names of three other firms at the corner Bay and Adelaide. So that was a big deal. It was the space we had. It was all of – not just the lawyers, but all the support staff. You know, we had helped create their lives. And I was a big believer that if you’re going to work, you’re going to have fun working, and that this was going to be a great experience in your life. And that was our firm philosophy. So here we were coming out of that and being perceived by the world … the Newspapers called it the greatest Canadian failure in Canadian law firm history. Well, how do you like being associated with that? AW: that’s not a nice superlative. NB: No, exactly. Not the one you want to be your legacy. And ultimately, my wife came to me about three months later after the firm’s demise. So it was February. She came to me and in June, with, what they used to call it, a nothing book. It was just a book that’s empty with about 200 pages in it. And she put it down on a table beside me and she said, “Listen, you have two choices. You’ve become a very angry person. And you need to process your feelings. And either you’re going to write them down, or you’re going to go see a therapist. Those are your two options right now, because you can’t continue being this person.” So I thought about it for just a couple days. And just getting back to your diary question. I had never kept a diary. I always wished I had. I didn’t even know where to start. So I said it. You know what I’m going to start from a feeling perspective. I’m going to write what the last day felt like. Because I insisted on being the last person to leave. I felt like literally the captain going down with the ship. It was Valentine’s Day, it was a Friday night and I was looking out the window, it was dark out over Lake Ontario. And there was nobody left and I walked around the hallways and there were these huge boxes that you collect recycling in. And there’s a little bit of literal leftovers, but otherwise it was the place was a tomb. AW: I have to tell you that it was very vivid image and, and I thought you were talking about the process of writing the story, but you’re also talking about how the book unfolds. So it is written chronologically, I guess, with the exception of the very beginning. It does start with this. NB: When we were publishing, I concluded that the book has to start at the end because the process started at the end. And once I finished writing that’s how that felt. I said okay, … because there was no way I was emotionally ready to look at the final year and everything that we went through. So I said, you know what? I always talked about keeping a diary. I’m going to go back to day one in law school and bring it forward. And then at some point, I’ll be, I’ll be ready to write about this. And I thought, well, it’s, you know, it’ll be a really nice memento for my children. It’ll be my memoirs. It’ll be for my children only. There’s no more firm. I can’t take them to visit. But what I can do is tell them, this is the story of my life. And it was handwritten. By the time I got to the last year, I had been writing from mid-July to mid-December. AW: Okay, that’s pretty quick, actually, isn’t it? NB: It was just every story I could remember. And I just wrote them down. Some of them I couldn’t remember the chronology. I didn’t care. I just wanted to have it. I’d filled up pretty close to six of these books. And I developed an abscess on my finger and that’s when I knew it was time to take a break. And then I came back, we took a family holiday, we came back at the beginning of January, I said okay, now I’m going to type it up. And at that point, I typed it in and that’s how I that’s how I learned how to type. You know, until then I was a hunt and peck kind of email sender. I probably type about 35 words a minute now, but although 34 of them are wrong. AW:  yeah. NB: Like, my fingers are dyslexic. AW: It’s funny, you know, a lot of people know that they should learn to type. And it’s not until it’s not until I was actually writing my dissertation that I really learned how to type fast. But there we go, we are creatures of necessity. NB: So I wrote it down. And then the Danny fellow I mentioned earlier… I had the 750 pages of manuscript and I hadn’t spoken to him in years, and I picked up the phone and called him. And I said, “Listen, I’ve written a memoir of the firm. I’m a little shaky on the parts in the period that I hadn’t joined the firm yet – in the early years. Would you mind reading that?” He said, “Well send me the whole thing.” He said, “I’m very curious about what happened after I left the firm.” When he and I were finished with it. I called a friend of mine who was an agent and a friend of mine in Los Angeles, who’s a producer. He said, “Listen, send me the first 50 pages.” And he actually sent back some script notes and the agent, we spoke for about 15 minutes and he said, “Listen, call me back when it’s 300 pages, because no one’s that interested in your life!” So that’s exactly what I did. It’s interesting because no one teaches you how to write a book unless I suppose unless you study English and you learn, take creative writing. AW: It’s true. They tell you how to write essays. And that’s it. NB: Yeah, the hardest part is to find the storyline in all your stories. So compiling this meant a lot of the 400 pages are on the floor, some of the most salacious stuff. And certainly the one thing I did discover was, I left a lot of my anger on the floor. AW: Oh, that’s fantastic. So it was cathartic? NB: And that’s what it was supposed to be – a cathartic experience. And by the time I was about a year out, the anger was gone. And after the book was published, once I started, once I went on a speaking tour and I’m still on it, and talk not just about the experience, but everything I learned about building a career, building an organization, leading an organization, I slowly but surely discovered that I had no anger left. I was actually able to look at it, at least from my perspective, objectively, and come to my own conclusions about what we did right and what we did wrong. AW: Okay, I have so many questions that I want to ask you, starting with something that occurred to me probably when I was reading the second chapter. If I was a lawyer, writing the story about a law firm with a bunch of lawyers, I would be pretty afraid of other lawyers being litigious. That must have crossed your mind. NB: Oh, that absolutely crossed my mind. So I had I had a rule of thumb. And this I say, somewhat facetiously, but if I was going to write a story about you, and you had way more money than me, I was going to be very careful. And if I thought you had less money than me, I worried a little bit less. So that it’s a bit of a joke, but there are a few people who I write about where the chapters were probably rewritten at least 15 times and then read by my lawyer to make sure I was on the right side of it. Interestingly enough, I only got one threat. That was before the book was published, by one of the anti-heroes of the book. Yeah, I suppose if you picked it up and read it, you figure it out. AW: Yeah. I can’t actually remember his name… NB: It doesn’t matter, because I’m not going to mention it now. And he called and said, Listen, just so you know, I am litigious. And if there is a shred of evidence in here of libel, I won’t hesitate.” I couldn’t help myself. I listened carefully. And I waited till he was finished. And I said, “Well, I guess there’s you only have one choice at this point in time.” He said, “What’s that?” I said, “You’re just gonna have to buy the book and find out.” AW: Oh, brilliant. I love it. I love it. I thought you were gonna say, “I assumed nothing less.” Which of course is true. Another question that I have is: did it occur to you that this book would make a great movie? NB: I didn’t really think so. A few people have said maybe a TV show but the problem is with writing about reality is you do have to be extraordinarily careful about libel. So it could turn into a really good fictional show. The problem is no one would believe it – based on what you see about law firms in either in Hollywood or on Canadian television. It’s not real life, probably any more than the hospital shows are AW: right. It drives doctors crazy. That’s funny. Did you when you were writing it, and maybe even more when you were editing it and refining it, did it cross your mind that you are being implicitly prescriptive and teaching lessons to people who may be creating cultures, creating organizations? NB: It occurred to me when I sat down, I had breakfast with Jonathan Kay, formerly of the National Post, fantastic writer, and I’ve known him for many years, and I gave him an early draft of this. He looked at it he looked at the draft. He said, “Norman, you’ve written three books here, three books that have never been written before.” One is a case study on how to develop as a professional. He said, “If you separated that out and sold it, that would be a successful book. So then you’ve written a book on how to build an organization and philosophies behind building a successful organization.” He said that too on its own would be a successful book. And he said, “The third one you’ve written, which is also unique,” He said, “You’ve written a book on the elements of the breakdown of an organization as an insider, as opposed to an outside forensic analysis of what happened. Nobody ever writes about their own failures like this.” And I went back, I thought about it for a week. And being the stubborn person that I am said, Okay, I’m not separating this into three books. But internally for organization purposes. That’s exactly what I’m going to call them. So the book is actually set up as  book one, book two, book three. AW: Thank you, Jonathan Kay. Yeah. And really, that’s what it is, is three separate case studies, and I think makes it a little more compelling. Certainly when I speak at universities, and the theme of my lectures is “I used to be you.” How did I get to be me? It’s really book one of this the first third of the book and better, what are the things that they’re not teaching you in school that you need to add to your playbook in terms of skills in order to succeed as a professional. AW: I’m wondering what part of this process was the most difficult and also what part was the easiest for you? NB: The easiest is the writing. The first draft was was easiest. It’s … AW: I have to stop you right there. So many people say that writing is incredibly difficult and way more difficult than people think it is. And you’re saying that was the easiest, NB: What I discovered and it’s like anything else, once you once you develop a habit, and I developed a habit of writing, at minimum three hours a day, so I’d come home from work at around nine o’clock, I’d sit down at the kitchen table, and I would start to write and my rule was, I’m not allowed to get up till I’ve written six pages. That was just my rule of thumb and what I discovered after a shorter period of time that I expected it to happen. I read this book once. It’s says you can create or break any habit in 21 days. So if you do anything for 21 days consecutively, it’s a habit and it becomes hard to break. And this was true. It got to the point where I couldn’t go a day. And sometimes I had trouble not writing on the weekends is that AW: so was that because you thought you were going to lose momentum? Or is that because you were actually starting to internalize this positive reinforcement, the effects of writing? NB: Once I started writing, the stories just started coming, pouring out, I couldn’t get to them fast enough. And I had 35 years of stories to tell. And many of them were completely disconnected. But they were just interesting stories. And once I was going I had this habit I, you know, got to the point where I couldn’t wait for work to be over — classic work to be over — which I began to dislike more and more every day, as the writing was replacing it. One might call it a preoccupation. In reality had developed into an obsession. AW: preoccupation, perfect word. NB: That was the easiest. Ultimately, the hardest part is the flip side. The part that makes it so worthwhile, I can’t think of the exact word but the part that I find the most …. AW: compelling? NB: thank you, the most compelling piece is the teachings that come out of it and my ability to teach. And, you know, and the evolution of my next career, which is as much as anything else, a teacher. So here I am, I’m in this new career, and I’m focused on passing it on. It’s like passing on every bit of wisdom that I learned from others. I don’t pretend to be, you know, wise on my own. It’s all lessons that I picked up from others along the way that I now feel the compulsion to pass along. And the cost? I have some partners who don’t want to talk to me anymore, or who avoid me.  There are a lot of them who have refused to read the book.  Only a few, on the basis that I never should have written it. That I’ve broken the code by pulling back the curtain to show what happens in law firms. AW: Wow NB: but then there are others who found this also to be the most troubling part of their life. And even the notion of opening page one is like ripping off the scab. They’ve gone on with their lives, they buried their anger, it’s still there. They haven’t,… I’ve had the opportunity to process my anger. AW: What you’re really talking about is resilience. And I think back in those decades when this was happening, resilient, the word resilience, obviously existed. But it wasn’t on the tip of our tongues. And nowadays, the audiences of university students that you’re talking to now, resilience is a key trait that we’re all seeking, right? NB: Yes. And I’ve always considered myself fortunate. It’s in me genetically. It’s not something I had to go out and seek and find. I still remember my first interview at Heenan Blaikie as a law student and they didn’t hire me. They didn’t hire me for quite a number of years … AW:  You came in through the back door, I think? NB: Yeah, but trying to get through the front door. The question the interviewer asked me – the following question: “How do you behave when you’re under stress?” In the first interview, and I remember I heard the question. I’m thinking to myself, well, the real answer is I don’t usually feel stress. Like what stresses most people just doesn’t stress me. But I know if I answer that, either they’re not gonna believe me or they, they’re going to think I’m a headcase. That was the honest answer. I just don’t process stress the way other people do. I feel it, but when it’s happening, my reaction is usually Okay, let’s deal with it. I’m a “Let’s deal with it” kind of guy, which is quite unusual for lawyers, in fact,.. AW: really? Because I think a lot of successful lawyers seem to be that way. It is exceptional, but maybe not as exceptional in law. NB: It is. And this by a clinical psychologist, so I’ve studied he’s interviewed well over 10,000 lawyers, his name is Dr. Larry Richards. He’s a doctor as well as being a lawyer. AW: okay. NB: And his conclusion is, compared to the average population, we are incredibly less resilient. AW: Really? NB: We are more analytic than the average. Considerably more analytic. We are highly skeptical, and I’m not sure whether the law schools attract that kind of personality or they train it. AW: Probably a combination. NB: What he was saying is particularly for law firm leaders, it’s important to understand that we generally assume when we’re reviewing staff, when we do reviews. The common wisdom on reviews was the critical sandwich. So between any piece of criticism, you should have at least two positives, right? AW: Right! I actually talked about that in another episode. NB: And when it comes to lawyers, it’s not correct. It’s more like – the ratio is more like – four to one. AW: Wow. So another great thing about the Breakdown story is that it gave me an insight into what lawyers are like. And as you say, they may not be as resilient as, as we thought they were, or, as I guess as desensitized as I had in my mind, they may be. There was a great quote that I absolutely loved. I stopped. I underlined it. I folded the page.  On page 248. He said, “Lawyers with time on their hands are management’s worst nightmare. Like dogs who run in circles, pee on the carpet and chew on furniture when they haven’t been walked in the morning.” and I thought, Wow, that is beautiful. And then I started to think about many of the other metaphors and analogies that you had included. And a few of them would be when you were talking about Danny’s story and the Hotel California – how you could never leave. NB: Right AW:  and karate lessons. So the story of you signing up for karate with your son and then going through and getting your black belt – in several degrees, I think – a black belt. And how that was a similar story to your career. And then later on in the book, you talked about how a number of partners in the firm deserted the marriage. So I guess as a storyteller, I was wondering if you could share a little bit with us how you come up with these powerful metaphors and analogies when you’re writing? NB: A great question. And it’s particularly interesting because when I finished Breakdown, I had already started writing my first fiction, again at my wife’s instigation. Because again, I didn’t think I had fiction in me and writing your similes and your metaphors is a much more critical component than it is in writing a nonfiction. AW: Why? Why is that? NB: Because, I used to think fiction was you simply make up a story and you write it and you’re done. Which should be a lot easier than writing Breakdown, for example, which is, you have to be careful. Your facts have to be right. When a story is going the wrong way, you’re stuck with it. You can’t fix it, you just have to go with at least what your version of the truth of that story is. Whereas in fiction, as a reader, it all appears to be so random. And it isn’t. Fiction, in fact, is just the opposite. And this is something I had to learn the hard way. And it took me four years to learn it. In fiction, everything is connected right down to the last simile and the final metaphor. So I may be describing this coffee cup on the table sitting between us. But to tell you it’s a red coffee cup is a bore to a reader. But if I can tell you the symbolism of red and what it means to me, and if I take you through the thought process of the red cup that my great grandfather passed along to me as a child, and therefore the fact that you put a red cup on this table is the most meaningful thing you could ever do for me, creates a bond between you and me that you are not aware of, that I’m aware of, that the readers aware of. But suddenly this red coffee cup takes on a whole life of its own in fiction. And if you can do that, as a fiction writer, you have succeeded. AW: And to your point that you made earlier, it evokes emotion, right? NB: So when I talk about lawyers in Breakdown, it’s a kind of a standing joke. Some call it herding cats, but I always liken them to a pack of wolves or dogs. And therefore, when I was thinking, when I was just thinking through the writing process of that sentence. Who knows. I can’t tell you why it flashed in my head. But I had always likened lawyers to dogs in one way, shape, or form. And it just, sometimes the ideas just pop into your head and you go with them and you finish writing it and of course, I finished writing it when I’ve rewritten it for the hundredth time. Readers have a tendency to believe that the story kind of writes itself, between first draft and publication. I’m writing frontwards, backwards, sideways, upside down right side up and looking for every possible connection from beginning a book to the end. And it’s about searching for those connections. It was interesting. I had a comment from one reporter who reviewed the book. And in our interview, he said, “I had no idea that lawyers were real people. That they behave just like the rest of us.” And in some respects, they’re worse. But he said, as much as anything else, I had to bring home the humanity of the lawyers in this book. We’re not these gods on pedestals, like we need to be for our clients. Yes, that’s an act we play when somebody comes in, when we ned to be objective. But as soon as you put us into a subjective situation that affects all of our lives, we behave just like you, in fact, sometimes worse. AW: But the other thing that you were documenting, or maybe reifying, is the fact that successful people can be associated with failure. NB: Successful people are always associated with failure. What you generally see, there are few of us who have been successes in our life, who have known nothing but success. And I always felt it and it was, it was more when I actually went through what I did go through that I learned way more from my failures. And I had to document them in here. Just – I made some terrible mistakes as managing partner and I learned from them. I learned all kinds of things from them. And it made me a better leader. AW: One of the top podcasters out there, and also author, Tim Ferriss, he often introduces his interviews with the experts with a reminder to the listeners that we all put our pants on one leg at a time. And this person may have achieved mega stardom, mega celebrity, and mega success, but they learned lessons along the way from their failures that got them there. So that’s the resilience thing, right? What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. NB: Yeah. Looking at, frankly, if you go back to the beginning of the book, I talk about how my first four years of practice, I was going nowhere fast. I wasn’t aware of it at the time, but I got a review at the end of my fourth year that was less than stellar. And it was to put it in a nutshell, you have all this talent, you should be further ahead of where you are right now. But I can’t tell you why you’re not. So imagine getting that kind of review. And that’s that was the wake up call for me. Actually more for my wife. She was one who spent probably four hours explaining to me what that meant. But I woke up the next morning, literally, I would say a new person. And it was a transformation you’d probably only see in a movie, but I decided that was it. I was until that point. AW:  That was when you provided an ultimatum at that point, right? Based on your wife’s encouragement. You said, you went back and you said, “this is not acceptable.” NB: I said it’s not acceptable. But I still didn’t understand what it meant. And what I did about it was I took control of my career at that moment in time. I said, “Okay, this is what I’m going to do,” and I started discovering things about myself that were always there to be found, take the initiative, get out ahead of it, never ever cede control if you don’t have to. And I say that in a more of a positive way than it than a negative way. But I mean, if you have the opportunity to achieve something, go for it. Don’t wait for somebody to step up into it. And from a leadership philosophy perspective, sort of became my, my love vacuums. And that is, if you want to succeed, look for the vacuum and fill it. Don’t look around and say, I wonder why nobody’s taking care of this. Do it. AW: When you said, vacuums, I thought you were talking about your early days. NB: Yeah. Well, AW: it’s an interesting choice of metaphors. NB: I suppose that ever occurred to me until this moment. AW: fill the vacuum. And there you go. Another metaphor. One other thing before we move on to other types of storytelling. I just, it occurred to me when I was reading it, and now again in this conversation, that your wife had a huge impact on the story of your career, didn’t she? NB: Yes, she did. AW: Wow. NB: And that brings us back to the marriage metaphor. She’s always been there for me to pick me up when I was down. To sometimes to push me along when I was going too slowly. Most important, she has always held me to a standard that I haven’t always held myself to. She always believed I was capable of more than I might have thought up at the time. She told me I had to trust her. AW: Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds as if she had so much respect for you. And you knew that and therefore, there was such a positive lens on everything that she was saying. Okay, let’s shift gears then to other types of stories and storytelling. So when I think of storytelling, the first thing that comes to my mind is being in the elevator with the president or the CEO of the organization that I was working for, and thinking, gosh, I wish I had a great answer to when she asked me, “so what’s going on Andrea?”  So this it’s not exactly an elevator pitch, but the short form narrative of what’s going on in your career. Can you talk a little bit about how important that is? NB: Wow, that was a loaded question. AW: Yeah. So I have this – I honestly have this visceral visual image of it. There was a glass elevator. She gets on and I go, “Oh, God”, and she goes, “Andrea, what are you working on these days?” I’m such a loser. I have no idea what to say. NB: And we all go through that. Even some of us who’ve had success or in the mid points in our career, we have those moments where we say Oh, God, I wish I had the canned speech ready for that moment. There’s a fellow by the name of Jim Beqaj. He’s written a fascinating, it’s a tiny little book on job interviewing. And it’s all about matching yourself to the place where you work so that you’re aligned. What Jim advises is before you go out and interview you should actually sit down and do your 60 second infomercial on yourself. I know it cold, and that the 60 second infomercial is about who you are, what you think is important, what you want to get out of any job you take. And then you play that when you go for your interviews. And I know we’re all worried when we do that, well, they might not like the real me. I need to project what I think they want me to be, not what I am. And Jim says that’s the recipe for job disaster. You’re way better off not getting hired because the employer looks at you and says, That’s not the kind of person we’re looking for. Then when you take that job, and they discovered two months later, that’s not the kind of person we were looking for. But they made the mistake because you’ve been too busy acting in your interview. AW: That is fantastic advice. I love that the 60 second infomercial. NB: So you know flashing forward to that moment when you’re with the CEO in the elevator and they say, “what are you up to?” when they say it because, well, first of all, they’re nice enough to actually know you work there. And they have some ideas about who you are, if not a lot, but they actually couldn’t care less what you’re working on at the time. Really what they want to know is a little bit more about you. AW: That’s probably true. NB: And that’s your moment. And if you have that 60 second canned infomercial, your answer is, you know what, here’s what I love about our organization. And this is what I’m doing to help to help make it even better. AW: Okay, another type of story that I wanted to ask you about is the story that’s being told in the media. So you can answer this however you want, whether you have general advice for how people interact with the media, or maybe it’s with your experience, with Heenan Blaikie, and you knew that the story was hitting the media and how you dealt with that. Do you have any comments about telling your story through the media? NB: Yes. I’ve done some media training largely for crisis management, because we had a few crises along the way. And the first one in the door was the crisis management expert in terms of what do we say. It’s not just the media. It’s what do you tell the media? What do you tell the people who are working for you? What do you tell your partners? How do you manage the entire process? And we’re going to start with honesty. But the key –and this I learned through experience– is you need to understand your core message. So whatever it is, you’re not going to be able to spin the story because someone else is writing the story, the only thing you can do is stay true to your core message and make sure that gets out. So it doesn’t pretty much matter what the questions are that you’re being asked. So and unless you’re on live TV, everything you say is going to be edited and taken out of context and repurposed as a tool of whoever it is that has the angle on the story they’re going to write. So what you have to do is understand that less is more, and your job going into that interview, is to stick to your core message. This is what I want the world to know. And it doesn’t matter how many times you have to repeat it to get there. And you may frustrate the interviewer. But so what AW: I’ve heard those interviews on the radio. They ask this question, it’s like no, I got one message for you. NB: Yeah. AW:  and the less is more, I guess the more you give them, the more they can take out of context. NB: That’s right. And not only that, the more you say the more you relax and the more likely you are to say something that you swore to yourself, you wouldn’t say. AW: is there anything else you want to share with the listeners about storytelling? NB: The one thing that I’ve learned – and it’s interesting because I see it now in my writing. And I see the parallels that I’ve learned, because I’ve been speaking for many, many years. And that is: you need to connect with emotion. And I’ve said it before, but you need to connect with emotion and life experience. And ultimately, the experience of the listener and the experience of the reader is somewhat the same. I need you to feel in some respect that I’ve changed how you see the world. AW: Another question that I wanted to ask you is, have you inspired anyone else to write their story who otherwise maybe wouldn’t have? NB: Not to my knowledge, but the nice thing about speaking to a lot of people is you’re inspiring people and you don’t know what the impact is. And I love that. I love not knowing who, 20 years from now will say, I went to listen to on of Norm’s speeches 20 years ago and it changed my life. And occasionally someone will write me and tell me that, and that is better than anything anybody could ever tell me about… about anything. You tell me I had a positive impact on your life. And that’s the reason why I get up in the morning. AW: Oh, okay. Well, let’s leave it at that. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise about telling your story. NB: Thank you.   THANKS for listening – and READING!  Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. The post #42 TELLING YOUR STORY with best selling author & legal veteran Norman Bacal appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Listen, as Norman Bacal, author, consultant, and 35 year legal veteran, shares his insights and stories about how active listening can help you not only learn, but also improve your relationships with co-workers, clients, family, and friends.  You will learn strategies for active listening, including the ideal mindset for listening, what to project, how narcissists are (sometimes) non-listeners, tips on small talk, as well as advice on developing relationships with clients.    References & Links Norman Bacal Website – https://normanbacal.com/ LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/norman-bacal-16772a23/ BOOKS: “Breakdown” by Norman Bacal – https://amzn.to/2FDyu6E “Odell’s Fall” by Norman Bacal – https://amzn.to/2TdbinM Also recommended book “Quiet” by Susan Cain – https://amzn.to/39TR2xD   Listening References  Types of listening http://changingminds.org/techniques/listening/types_listening.htm https://www.prdaily.com/4-listening-styles-communicators-should-know/ Narcissism & listening https://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/narcissism https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201509/what-is-the-most-overlooked-symptom-narcissism Active Listening https://www.fastcompany.com/90372821/how-i-learned-to-be-better-at-active-listening-as-a-manager? Julian Treasure TEDTalk  https://www.ted.com/talks/julian_treasure_5_ways_to_listen_better/   Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Subscribe to the Podcast: https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Norman, for joining us here today to talk about listening. Norman Bacal: Oh, thanks, Andrea. AW: I have a question for you to start with regarding the significance of listening. How would you say listening ranks in terms of significance in effective communication versus all the other skills that we can acquire to become effective communicators? NB: I don’t think anything else comes close to listening, because most people talk because they want to be heard. And it’s a very tough skill, because most people would prefer to be speaking than to be listening. We all want to be heard. We all want to feel we count, which is naturally at odds with listening to someone else’s point of view, and then allowing it to have an impact on your own. AW: What other communication skills do you think might be almost as important – or next on the list? NB: Reading visual cues is really important. So sometimes it isn’t what people say. It’s the way that they say it. The way that they’re sitting in their chair. Sometimes it’s the way that they walk into the room that tells you much more about what they have to say than what’s coming out of their mouth. I think there’s a huge issue relating to subtext. Very often the conversation we need to be having isn’t the conversation we’re having. AW: This takes me to the definition of listening, because some people would say that perceiving or decoding the information that the encoder has provided, is actually listening – whether it’s verbal, oral communication or nonverbal communication, right? NB: That’s right. There’s so much in a conversation that isn’t being said. So for example, the way you nod your head when I’m speaking, is giving me a signal that what I’m saying is resonating. Or if I’m speaking and you’re rolling your eyes at me, it’s telling me you probably think I’m completely bullshitting you or you’re angry at me. And it’s really important when you’re speaking to be reading the other person, because communication isn’t just about having words come out of your mouth, even though some people believe that. It’s about discovering whether the other person is actually open to hearing what you have to say. Of course, it’s much easier to say in theory than to actually live through it. And I know through countless exchanges I’ve had with people that have failed. But ultimately, there are so many, not only verbal, but non-verbal parts of the exchange that are happening. And of course, that can only happen when you’re face to face. It becomes much more difficult when you’re doing this over the phone and trying to decode. And it’s pretty much impossible when it’s by text. AW: So assuming we’re talking about verbal communication then, what does it mean to be an effective listener? NB: That is a loaded question. AW: It is. NB: I can probably explain it through an example. It’s my first year as managing partner of Heenan Blaikie. And when you’re the managing partner, people walk into your office with their problems pretty regularly. If they’re comfortable. I had one partner walk in one day. Plops himself down across from me. And I’d known him for many years. And he starts telling me this tale of another partner who’s making his life miserable. And they’re in another office. And as he’s talking, the only thing going on in my mind is: I have no idea how I’m going to help. Like, I just, I just have no idea. It’s a tough one. I’m like, maybe I’ll go speak to the other partner afterwards. But I don’t think that’s going to work. And he must have spent half an hour in my office describing the problem and his great unhappiness with how this was impacting on his life. And I was sitting there thinking the whole time, I am a failure, I cannot do this job. I cannot be the managing partner of a firm because I have no idea how to solve problems like this. I went home that night and I told my wife and I just unloaded. She didn’t have any particular advice for me on that one. But she said, Listen, it’s, you know, it’s part of the job. AW: She said, Listen? Ha ha. NB: No, she said, just to know I was listening… I was able to relay exactly what he said. I was listening pretty carefully, but I just couldn’t figure out how I was going to help him. When he left he left just you know, his shoulders sagged, he looked depressed, walking out the door. And I felt like my shoulders should be sagging too, as I’m walking out the door, and probably they were. He called me a week later from the other office. And he said, Norm, I just wanted to let you know how great you are at your job. I almost fell off the back of my chair, like, What are you talking about? He said, I came in to see you last week, and I needed to unload. I had this problem. And as you were listening to me, it became quite clear to me that the only person that could solve this problem was me. And I knew you couldn’t. That’s not your job. I have a problem with a partner, I need to go deal with it. And once I heard those words coming out of my mouth, it became clear to me what I had to do and I’m going to do it. I just wanted to let you know, I really appreciated the fact that you sat there and listened to me blather on for half an hour about this. And that was the day the light bulb went off. That sometimes the process of just giving someone an ear is enough. That’s all you need to be doing and it’s not a failure. In fact, it’s a sign of success. AW: Hmm. So one of the benefits, or positive outcomes, of being a great listener is that we can help people solve their own problems. What are some of the other benefits or reasons why I might want to be a good listener? NB: The things we have to say just aren’t that interesting. Most people are most comfortable speaking about themselves. Fortunately, and this is just my makeup. I don’t feel the great need to talk about myself. And when I do talk about myself, part of my brain is feeling uncomfortable, like I’m going on a little bit too long. I’d rather be listening than talking to start with, so it’s not like I’m this genius that has figured something out. I just naturally prefer to be listening than to be speaking. I’ve seen people at the other end of the spectrum, and you can read it in their eyes. As you’re speaking to them. They’re already formulating their next argument. And that sometimes happens to me – none of us are perfect. But if you’re busy formulating how you’re going to respond. that generally leads to interrupting syndrome – like I can’t let you finish. What I have to tell you is just so important that you just need to stop speaking now and listen to me. And you can feel it. And they don’t realize they’re not listening to you. AW: It makes people feel bad when you interrupt them, right? Like, you must not value them. NB: Yes. Listen, I interrupt people much more often than I wish I did. But every time you interrupt, you’re basically telling them, I don’t need to hear what you have to say. Because what I have to say is paramount. So you’re pretty much dissing them. AW: So I’m really intrigued by what you said about the fact that you have this belief that maybe what you’re saying isn’t as interesting or important as other people and that this is an intrinsic thing that you have – a natural way of being. Is that related to being an introvert? NB: I don’t know if it’s related to being an introvert. It might be. But the reality is, my makeup is I don’t want to bore you. And I know if I’m going on too long with a story, there’s a risk that at a point in time you’ve clicked off. It happens to me mostly when I talk about writing, because I find actually people have had no interest in what I did is a lawyer and so I rarely talk about it. Because if I tried to explain to you what I was doing on a deal, your eyes would fog over pretty quickly. So I just never bothered. But when I talk about writing, writing is something lots of people think – God I wish I could write or maybe I should do it, or how do I do it? So it’s something I like to talk about, because I think it actually ties into this secret desire, we all have, to write. But I’m very conscious when I’m speaking, that maybe the audience is sitting there saying, Okay, enough already with your writing. AW: back to what you said about being concerned that you say might be boring people. Do you think that listening has to do with the ego? I’m wondering if people who are very egocentric, maybe it’s the interrupters, who are taking up too much of the conversation? NB: People who are egocentric like to talk – that is my experience. They like to talk. They like to be the center of attention. They like to put on a show. I have lived for many years with a partner who is just like Donald Trump. There’s certain characteristics of people who have high degrees of narcissism. All tied to – it’s all about me. And I know you have to be at least as interested in me and my stories as I am, and therefore I’m going to tell you all of them. AW: I am –  when we’re done this interview – going to check, I’m sure (99% sure) that someone’s done the research on listening skills and narcissism. NB: Oh, okay. AW: Don’t you think there’s got to be probably a correlation? NB: One of the greatest narcissists I’ve ever met… AW: Greatest narcissist? Haha. NB: Yes. AW: Most extreme narcissist? NB: Yeah. Well, he’s got some greatness to him. And he’s also got some huge character flaws. He’s like a character out of a novel. He is also the best listener I’ve ever known. AW: Really? NB: Yeah. One on one. He is the best listener. I’ve learned listening skills from him. He will not ever interrupt you. He will listen. He will take notes to what you’re saying. He will wait till you’re finished and then he will start. AW: He may be so manipulative though that he’s conscious of that? NB: No. He’s genuine. I’ve seen him in enough situations. It is genuine. He’s genuine and a very successful business person, probably as a result. AW: Well, let’s dig into developing listening skills. In your book. Breakdown, you say, “for four years, I observed Jean Potvin at work. He was a master. He taught me the value of listening.” Can you share with the Talk About Talk listeners, what exactly did he teach you? NB: Apart from anything else, he took me to every meeting he went to. Normally when you’re the kid at the bottom of the totem pole, you don’t go to meetings. How does anybody expect you to learn? I just kind of scratch my head. That was something I insisted on when I became more senior. But he would get clients in a room and he’d get them talking about their stories, which did two things. One, it bonded him to the clients. And second, he found out the things he needed to know about them – to better serve them. So there wasn’t a direct line between what he was asking them and the legal work they wanted to hire him for. But it gave him information. Perhaps some context to be able to serve them better. AW: I am so conscious of interrupting you now… So you learned from that the value of asking people to tell their stories and you also learned, I guess from him being a great role model, how you could then become a manager and help bring someone up. What else did you learn? NB: Well, he wasn’t the only one teaching me. There were a number of mentors who went out of their way to make me a better lawyer. Three come to mind. Jean was one of them. Richard Lewin was a second, and Danny Levinson who was third. Danny and Richard worked very hard on my writing skills. Yeah, for that I’m eternally grateful. They made me become a lot more precise. For Jean, it was about his skill with people. Jean was the master in dealing with people. AW: and a master listener? NB: And a master listener. But he just had this elegance and grace about him. But I observed – it’s funny because you learn things not only from people who do things well, you also learn things from people who become negative role models – where it’s in a meeting with either a bad listener, constantly interrupting, or lawyers who introduce themselves to clients and spent the first five minutes talking about their qualifications. And I said, Okay, I’m never doing that, because you’d watch the clients, their eyes would glaze over. What I learned in terms of client service was it’s about paying attention to them, finding out what their needs are, finding out as much as you possibly can about their business objectives. When I advanced to become the leader of the firm, one of my roles was going out and meeting with the CEOs of the businesses we represented. And I would never have them come to my office. We had one huge worldwide drug manufacturer. I went to visit them and took the tour as to how they manufactured one of their drugs. I was the first lawyer they’d ever dealt with that took the plant tour. And if you don’t think I didn’t own them after that meeting! Not only that, in the course of our discussions, I found out three or four things about the company that none of our lawyers knew, none of any of their lawyers knew, because they use multiple law firms. So we had a huge jump. I’d come back to the office and say, Okay, here are three issues we didn’t know about. Let’s get to work, and we’re respond to them immediately before… the client still hasn’t identified them as problems, but they’re going to be problems. AW: Wow, very proactive – directly based on your listening. NB: It wasn’t just listening. I mean, listening is part of it. It’s part of what I’d say – the larger category is… caring. Particularly if you’re in the service business, it’s more than empathy. It’s showing that you actually care about them and their businesses and their problems. I used to go visit CEOs and my first question would be okay, what’s keeping you up at night? It’s not about are we doing great service and please give me compliments or criticisms to take back. It’s what are you not able to identify to anybody else? Or maybe even to yourself that’s bothering you? AW: In a similar vein, you said, “There are no secrets in a small office. One simple technique worked well. I listened.” And you were talking about when you were a managing director, and I think you were going out to the Calgary office, and you said that the only thing really on your agenda, there were some people that you need to touch base with formally, but your main objective was to walk around, meet people, talk and listen. NB: Yes, I kind of happened into it. It’s not like I went out there with a strategy. But ultimately, after few years, it became a strategy. I realized it. AW: brilliant. NB: But simple. There’s no magic to this. It’s just you walk around you talk to people, they’re going to talk to you. AW: Yeah, it’s simple. But … You said that it wasn’t a strategy that you had on your to do list. But it feels like it’s not being productive. It’s a quote-unquote, soft skill. But it’s critical, right? NB: I always felt that even in the big offices, that walking the halls was critical. AW: What I’m hearing, though (and this may be readily apparent to other people, but I hadn’t really thought about this before explicitly), is that when you are proactively explicitly listening, there’s the content of the message that you’re hearing. But then there’s also other side effects that are happening that are that are more important. More important than the content of the message, and it’s the fact that someone feels like they’re being heard? NB: yes. AW: So I’m hearing that we can establish ourselves and the benefits of being a great listener by walking around and asking people to share their stories, to share their thoughts, to tell us what keeps them up at night. Also, by not interrupting. And as you said before, by not assuming what I have to say is the most important thing. Rather preferring to listen to what the other person has to say because it might be more interesting. Are there any other do’s and don’ts that you can share with people about listening skills and things to work on that might make us better listeners? NB: Something I can sometimes be quite weak at is paying attention. You know, we talked about listening but it’s not always easy to stay engaged. And I’m sometimes the worst culprit. I find that my attention sometimes wanes. And the other thing and you just pointed out to me is – put your device away. There’s nothing that hurts more, whether they admit it or not, in the middle of a conversation, than to respond to a text or ring. Because when you think about it, if it was anything else, you wouldn’t take it. AW: right. It is offensive. I’ve been in meetings where people have pulled out phones. And I think, to the credit of the person that’s running the meeting, they actually stopped the meeting. And I’ve also been in personal conversations where someone has picked up their phone and I’ve said, do you need a minute? NB: There you go. I mean, that’s, that’s when people do it. And the problem is, it’s become socially acceptable. I’m guilty of it sometimes, too. I have a rule whenever I’m out with anyone, if my wife calls I say, I’m, I am going to interrupt that because she and I have a rule. She’s not going to call me… AW: You let them know in advance? NB:  I’ll warn them in advance and say, listen, the only call I will take is from my wife. They can accept it or not. In the end, she’s the one I’m going home to! AW: Some of my friends that have that rule about their kids. And we will be in a restaurant and they’ll say the only person I’ll pick-up for is my kids and then the kids keep calling and calling and calling and I’m like, you need to tell your kid that unless it’s an emergency. they’re not valuing your time. NB: So the devices are the biggest problem, biggest communication problem today. AW: I agree. I agree and it is becoming so socially acceptable. But the truth is we can’t track two conversations, right? I mean, I don’t know anyone that can read a conversation on their phone and be engaged in a verbal dialogue effectively. NB: Something I learned from a speech coach: studies have shown that you cannot listen and read at the same time – and you can’t possibly absorb. So if I put a slide up on the screen while I’m talking, you’re either listening to me, or you’re reading the screen, but you’re not doing both. More likely than not, you’re not doing either. So if you’re going to put a slide up, wait till you finish speaking, tell people what they should be looking at on the screen and then shut up and let them read it. AW: That is such great advice. And I’m thinking also sometimes there’s just an image instead of words so that you can look at an image that may be reinforcing the words that you’re hearing, but NB: exactly AW:  it’s like, we’ve taken this now to the context of listening as someone who’s in an audience, right? But it’s actually the same thing. You can’t listen if you’re distracted. NB: That’s right. AW: Let’s shift gears then to listening and small talk. I wanted to ask you this because you said in the book a few times that you struggle with small talk, which really surprised me, because you’re not socially awkward. I can tell the listeners that. And you are a fantastic listener. In fact, that’s how I met you. I told someone who we know in common that I wanted to interview someone who’s a great listener and your name came to her mind immediately. How is it that we can reconcile that you’re not great at small talk, and yet you are a great listener? NB: Some tricks that I learned. The most important, and I teach this one, particularly to students and young lawyers: you will inevitably be in a cocktail party situation, could be the person sitting next to you at the table and you’re stuck with them for dinner, or you walk up to someone at a party and that person is a stranger. The whole idea of walking up to them is something you don’t want because how are you going to start what you’re going to say? My wife taught me two things. First, is pretend you’re conducting an interview. That you’re the Interviewer we’re most worried about exposing ourselves, telling our story, not boring the other person. But if we walk up to the other person, and we start asking them questions about themselves, they’re talking about their favorite subject and makes them feel immediately at ease. She said, If you do that, they’ll walk away saying you’re the most interesting person in the world, and they will have learned nothing about you. And it is inevitably true. People, when you get them talking about themselves, they start feeling a comfort level with you. And you don’t necessarily – you can choose to give up something about your life, but you don’t have to. In the end, they will think you’re very interesting. AW: So when I was an undergrad student, and I was on the job market, I went to a seminar and the person said something very similar. They said, the ratio of the conversation where you’re talking versus where the other person’s talking can often dictate how they’ll feel about you. So make it your objective to get the interviewer to talk more and for you to talk less because they’ll like you more. And I kind of made it a game in my mind. I found it kind of fun, too, I think as a 21-22 year old naive undergraduate student, I’m thinking I need to tell them how great I am. I need to fill all the silence with my accomplishments, right? And actually, I should have been listening to what they had to say about the company and … NB: My wife was the master of the interview, she went for 10 interviews got 10 job offers, because she was able to do this. It took me a lot longer to figure it out. And I said, there were two. The second in terms of getting through those moments is to imagine that you’re having a dinner party at your house and a stranger walks in the door. And what’s the first thing you do? Well as the host, you welcome them, AW: you engage them in conversation. NB: Engage them in conversation, you don’t think twice about it. So imagine you’re in this room where you need to meet people. You got to get through the evening. And the simple skill I learned was: just pretend this is your party, not someone else’s, and walk up to some people who look particularly alienated and just pretend you’re the host. So same thing you end up asking them about themselves. You start a conversation with anybody. Three minutes. I mean, the other thing I tell people is generally easier to hunt in pairs, not on your own. So you go to one of these things with a friend, you can’t brag about yourself, but your friend can and vice versa. If somebody puts their arm around you and said, Did you know that Norm did this? It’s a conversation opener. AW: I may have been involved in some of those scenarios at various cocktail parties. Yeah, I remember that. It’s like, I don’t really want this job. But I know you do. I’m your wing man. I’ll talk about how great you are! NB: Exactly. AW: I love it. Is there anything else that you can advise people about small talk? NB: Again, better to approach it by asking questions. And as soon as I understood that, it got me over the hump and then ultimately they’ll start asking you questions and then you’re fine. AW: So your asking questions comment actually is bringing me full circle, because when I asked you the question about what other communication skills may be almost as important as listening, in my mind, I was thinking actually asking questions could be that skill. But perhaps asking questions is listening? NB:  Yes. AW: So it’s saying that the second most important communication skill is part of listening? NB: It’s a strategy. AW:  Okay. Fair enough. Is there anything else you want to add about listening and how we can become more effective listeners? NB: Why don’t you talk to me about what you think about listening? AW: Haha. Humour. NB: There you go. AW: Okay, so now we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. NB: Okay, sure. AW: The first question is, what are your pet peeves? NB: For me? The biggest one is waiting in lines. I think I’m a patient person. I describe myself as a patient person. But put me in a line or in traffic and I become a very impatient person. AW: Why do you think that is? Is it because you’re wasting time? NB: I can’t explain it. It’s because I think at heart I’m a very impatient person. I’m trying to be patient. AW: okay. Second question. What type of learner are you? Visual? Auditory? Kinesthetic? or some other kind of learner? NB: To really learn, I need to go through the experience myself. And I learned this particularly in karate, I had to actually do it. And I had to do it wrong 10 times and had to have somebody watch me and say no, move your fingers four degrees, and you then you when you feel it, when you’re throwing somebody by just grabbing their fingers and flipping them backwards–my thumb and my two fingers can take hold up your wrist, and I can flip it over on your back– if I get it exactly the right way. But until you’ve experimented with it, there’s no way ,there’s no way to figure that out. AW: So you’re a kinesthetic learner? Does that mean that you can’t learn vicariously when it comes to, I don’t know… NB: I can’t learn how to write by reading. AW: There you go. NB: I have to learn to write by writing – and then the light bulb goes off. Or I have this moment and writing is the most unbelievable experience when it happens to you. I’ll be writing and suddenly the characters have taken over the scene. And I’m just a scribe. I’m just writing down what they’re saying and what they’re thinking and what they’re feeling. Because it isn’t me anymore. They’re in some part of my brain. AW: That’s how I feel when I’m painting and I get into flow. NB: There you go. AW: Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert? NB: Unquestionably introvert. I prefer to listen than to talk. I’m not sure if it’s a skill or a deficiency. I have learned many coping skills. I’m generally a shy person. I’ve learned how to cope. I’ve learned how to speak. And I’ve read Susan Cain’s book on this too. AW: Quiet? NB:  Quiet, which made me feel much better. You can learn the skills to cope, but at heart I would just assume be sitting quietly, reading a book, then engaged in a long conversation with someone. AW: Question number four: communication preference for personal conversations? NB: When I’m in a rush, I text. I try and avoid social media to communicate with people. I only do that when I have no other way of getting in touch with them. My strong preference is face to face because you can read the eyes and I think frankly, texting is terrible. So unless I’m texting you – I’ll meet you here at this hour. Generally I’m headed for disaster. AW: Okay. What about phone? NB: Phone is fine, but nothing, nothing beats face to face, right? Nothing. Particularly if I want something. If I want something, if I want to achieve something, I will never do it by email. I will never do it by text. I will occasionally do it by phone, but it won’t nearly be as successful as sitting down face to face. And because then you can feel me. AW: And the last Rapid Fire question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you recommend the most? NB: No.   I’m not, I’m not doing  podcasts yet. No. AW: but what about email newsletters? NB: I hate them. AW: Oh, really? NB: Yeah. AW: So where do you find out about great books to read? NB:  A fair amount of word of mouth. Sometimes I’ll just go I’ll go TPL and hit their choices. Like I’m not moved by ads and stuff like that. AW: Thank you very much for your time and your expertise Norman. NB: Alright, thanks.   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]     ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2486-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2486 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2486 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2486-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2486-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2486-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2486-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2486-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2486 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2486 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2486 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #41 LISTENING with author, consultant, & legal veteran Norman Bacal appeared first on Talk About Talk.

An efficient summary of the 19 Communication Skills from 2019, including the words we say, types of implicit communication, tips for specific people & contexts, & important meta learnings.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Let’s TALK! Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]   TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker,  parent, partner and friend.         TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that will help us catapult our career and enrich our relationships by providing us with communication skills and confidence.”             ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2465-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2465 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2465 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2465-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2465-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2465-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2465-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2465-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2465 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2465 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2465 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #40 – 19 COMMUNICATION SKILLS from 2019 appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Working with difficult or negative people can be stressful. Learn reasons why people act so negatively and what you can do about it. Human Resources expert Tamara Finlay suggests diagnosing the issue using the SCARF model, then shares specific Do’s and Do-Not’s, depending on whether it is your peer, your subordinate or your boss.   References & Links Tamara Finlay LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamarafinlay/ Expert Interview on Talk About Talk episode #37: “Communication Media: Phone or Email?” – https://talkabouttalk.com/37-phone-or-email/ THE SCARF Model – Dr. David Rock  David Rock – https://davidrock.net “Your Brain at Work” by David Rock – https://amzn.to/349u0hQ Articles – http://web.archive.org/web/20100705024057/http://www.your-brain-at-work.com/files/NLJ_SCARFUS.pdf https://hbr.org/2012/10/being-the-boss-isnt-so-stressful http://dcntp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Readiness_for_change.pdf Other References  “Six Thinking Hats” by Edward de Bono – https://amzn.to/353YiUA “Communicating Change” Talk About Talk podcast with Professor Ellen Auster – https://talkabouttalk.com/28-communicating-change-with-ellen-auster/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Subscribe to the Podcast: https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you Tamara, so much for joining us here today. Tamara Finlay: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. AW: Okay, so communicating with difficult people. I guess by definition, this is a negative topic. I know it’s a topic that causes people a lot of angst as several listeners have emailed or mentioned to me that they have difficult or negative people at work, and they just don’t know how to handle it. They’re looking for some tips on how to best handle this. So in your experience as an HR professional, do you think that it’s common that people have challenges with difficult people?  TF: I think at the end of the day, we’re human and humans are complex, with such diversity in the workforce right now, more so than ever in our entire history. We all have our unique personalities, preferred ways of communicating and doing things and everything is changing at the speed of light. Inherently people are going to be stressed. stress causes certain behaviors. And I think what we’re seeing is not necessarily negative people. What we’re seeing is people behaving in a way that we may not like. AW: So this is an interesting question is, at least as far as I’m concerned, is it true maybe that some people are just difficult, like it’s part of their personality? TF: I think we’re all attracted to different people for different reasons. Obviously, we’ve all experienced where we’ve got some relationships that are way easier than others. And some we have to work on more than others, right? We’re not going to love everybody, but we can certainly appreciate them for what they bring to the table, that people’s inherent wiring or what their natural go to is. I’ve used a tool in the past that actually has been effective, where I had this one team member that always approached things right out of the gate. From a negative perspective. AW: I’ve worked with those people; the default answer is “NO”.  TF: There’s a lot of value in that in the right circumstances. So what we actually did is we learn about the six thinking hats technique, are you familiar with it? AW: Yes. TF: So what it is, it’s a model that can be used for exploring different perspectives. And you can put on different hats depending on the circumstances or what you’re trying to achieve. It’s a great way to solve problems as a group. So you could have an entire group, even though one may be natural wired as a black hat, the pessimist, and one is more the yellow hat, which is an optimist, but you can have the entire group say, Okay, let’s now put on our black hat and think what are the risks if we do it this way? AW: So that would be like the devil’s advocate sort of? TF: Exactly. For this six thinking hats technique, the WHITE hat focuses on the facts. The RED one focuses on emotion. The BLACK hat, which is the one we were just talking about, is more the pessimist. It really is. They’re careful, they’re cautious. The YELLOW focuses on what’s good. So the optimist. GREEN focuses on possibilities. And BLUE focuses on organizing, it creates a common language and takes the emotion and the personal out of it. It took me a while to get to this point to really appreciate the black hat. But I’d rather have the black hat and know as many risks and challenges up front so we can fix them or mitigate or deal with them before we go and launch a whole new program. I love this framework because we want to pull out those different perspectives. AW: So would you try to hire people that represent each of those hats? Or would you say, today in this meeting, you’re going to have the black hat? or would you say during a meeting, each of us need to try and represent all of the hats. How does that work? TF: It can work in so many different permutations. Yes, when we hire we obviously want to hire for diversity. So we’re hiring for different things we don’t have, and some do assessments in terms of preference of working styles, thinking styles, that type of thing. It’s really about leveraging the diversity and people’s strengths to create that inclusive culture. I’ve seen it work effectively so you’re not just pinpointing Hey, you, you’re the black hat, I need a black hat…. AW: I can imagine that happening. TF: It’s “Let’s all put on our black hat today. And let’s go through what are the risks?” Now inherently, someone who’s naturally wired as a black hat will probably be the first out of the gate or will have the most extensive list. Well, that’s great, right? But it gets people thinking and using different parts of their brain. AW: brilliant. How do we handle someone who’s got some negative stuff going on? It could be a sick relative, they could be exhausted because they have a new baby at home, whatever the situation is. How do you handle that? TF: So I think there’s two different things here. One is if you’ve got someone whose behavior has changed, then you want to understand why everyone’s talked about work life balance. I don’t think that exists. I think it’s work-life blending, and it ebbs and flows. And it’s a give and take. It’s not like we can park our personal when we walk into work. And when we walk, when we walk in the door home is not like we’re parking work. So it’s really how do we blend it as best as we can. So hopefully, you’ve created a trusting, safe, psychologically safe environment, that you can have those open and candid conversations and help them as a human being not just as an employee. AW: I love that point. Of course, we need to have boundaries. But as Professor Ellen Auster, who I interviewed about change management said it’s great to initiate or end an email or a conversation that you’re having face to face with a colleague with how was your weekend or how did that event go that your daughter had or whatever and to actually really mean it. TF: for sure. Because again, you’re trying to connect emotionally. One of the things that resonated with me is in a moment of crisis. If someone wasn’t getting paid to be there would they be there? So if this is happening after hours? Or requires extended hours.? You want people to want to help you, they’re going to help you as a person, not because of the job, right? So how do you get that if you don’t have some type of emotional connection and relationship with them? AW: this leads me to the next question, which is what if you’re in a relationship situation at work where the person who you’ve identified as being difficult may be jealous of you or is highly competitive? And I can tell you I have been in this situation it was when I was in my 20s and I had some coworkers that were intensely competitive to the point that it affected our productivity. TF: This is where I use the SCARF Model. It was introduced to me by a neuroscientist, Dr. Carlos Davidoff, it’s really helpful in dealing with resistance and threats. The pace of change, we’re always running at mach-7. And running at mach-7 often puts us all under a lot of stress. So the behaviors of people under stressful situations, how do we create that psychology? Please safe environment, S is for Status. So the perception of being compared either higher or below our peers, okay? C is for Certainty. So it’s all about the need for clarity and ability to make accurate predictions about the future. A is Autonomy, and its sense of control over events in our lives. And R is for Relatedness. So sense of having shared goals. So it’s really that sense of belonging being in the group. And then the final one of SCARF, F is Fairness, the sense that we’re being respected and treated fairly in comparison to others. When that’s at risk, that’s when we start to see all these what you so called negative behaviors. So it’s all about the brain and how we behave and why is that so what are they motivated by? AW: So they want to get a promotion and they believe that if you get one, they aren’t. TF: Look at the pie scenario. Do we only have X many slices, or can we increase the number of slices? Or can we make a bigger pie or create two pies? AW: Sometimes in my experience, these people may believe that there is a finite pie, not an infinite pie, right. And if you get a big piece, they get a small piece. TF: I look at it as a view is my responsibility as a leader to try to unlock that for them to help them learn and grow and really develop? AW: So I think you just answered my next question, is it helpful or necessary to diagnose what’s going on in order to deal with it? TF: Absolutely. In my work and personal experience, if it’s left undiagnosed, not only does it not go away, it often explodes. It gets worse. AW: Right. So after we’ve diagnosed what may be going on in the relationship, or with the person that is, quote unquote difficult, we need to know what to do how to handle the situation. And when I was doing some research for this episode, I read something about transitivity which is another theory that I love, and it applies to so many relationship contexts and communication contexts. And this particular article said something about dealing with difficult people is not when we should be thinking about transitivity. In other words, two negatives does not equal a positive. We need to deal with negativity in a positive way. TF: Again, this is where it’s tapping into the human and the emotional connection. What would you want in their shoes? They may not even be aware of the impact their behaviors having and so if you built a relationship that’s based on trust, and you created that trusted environment and psychologically safe environment to be able to provide that ongoing back and forth feedback in real time, saying, this is how it makes me feel – because no one can tell you how to feel. AW: Can you share with the listeners some of the more typical reasons why someone might be difficult? TF: Often it’s because they’re acting out of fear. So again, that comes to the SCARF model, what’s motivating them is they perceive risk. What they perceive has changed. So is it because they feel they don’t have the tools that they need to do their job? to do something new? something’s changed? is it that they’ve got something completely different? personal issues going on that they need to deal with? So there’s various different things. But again, that’s why I think the SCARF model is so effective because it’s our natural wiring, it’s about the brain. AW: Okay. The first thing we do is diagnose and use the SCARF model. So status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness and think about which one or ones of those reasons that someone may have or behaving in a difficult way. TF: And not only in others, but also in ourselves. Absolutely. So what are our triggers? So for example, I know under certain circumstances, that’s going to be my trigger, and I’m going to behave in a way I don’t want to behave. So now knowing that I can catch it, and hopefully stop it before it starts. AW: This has such relevance. Even Within like a family dynamic and a personal situation, TF: Sure, absolutely. You can apply this in all parts of life. AW: So what then should you do – you’ve number one done the diagnosis, what’s the next step? TF: Depends what role you’re in. And I think it’s really exhibiting empathy and kindness, then it’s setting clear expectations and making sure people have the tools to do their job. So it comes down to Maslow’s theory, let’s cover off the basics so that people can really excel they can get to develop self-actualization, all those great things you want to real time. AW: So can you provide us maybe with – I’m putting you on the spot here – but with some scripts, things to say when someone we’ve diagnosed what the situation is, and we want to make it clear that we want to help the person and we want to continue working with them? TF: You just said right there. If it’s coming from your heart, again, it’s based on that relationship, then people are open to that it’s like then how can I help you? AW: I had one situation when I was a manager that I sometimes think about was one of my things that I’m most proud of, I got promoted slightly in advance of one of my peers. And then I was putting the awkward, we were putting the awkward, situation of me managing him. And for the first week, it was incredibly challenging, and we were butting heads, and we kind of didn’t know how to act. We went from peers to subordinate and boss. And so I asked him to come into my office and close the door. And I said, Listen, you need to get promoted. And I need to be identified as a great manager. So let’s get you promoted as quickly as possible. And let’s make that our goal, because that’ll also make me look like a great manager. And we can do this, and he was like, he actually hugged me. And he got promoted pretty darn quickly because we were both totally focused on that. So we came up with, you know, basically common ground. TF: Well, it’s all about creating a Win-win. So whatever makes sense and is appropriate under the circumstances. I also had similar scenario where I ended up managing my peer as a direct report and her entire team, AW: I can imagine that that would be particularly sensitive conversation to have, particularly when you’re working in HR! TF: for sure. It was definitely a challenging moment. But we got through it quite well. AW: So what are some of the more common mistakes that people make when there’s someone difficult in their office? TF: Well, there’s a bunch of things. One is just ignoring it and thinking it’s going to go away. I have yet to see it actually go away on its own. The other thing is it just going out and talking to other people instead of talking to the person directly. AW: I think that’s a big one. TF: It’s a huge one. And so again, it creates this big snowball, and all these are avoidable. AW: So when you’re doing the diagnosis, that doesn’t mean collecting information from other people? TF: Well, yes and no, it really depends on the circumstances, but you can do it in a very professional respectful way. AW: Sometimes the relationship is dictated to us as we know personally and professionally in terms of our level. Do you have any advice specifically about dealing with a difficult subordinate and then dealing with a difficult peer and then dealing with a difficult boss in terms of a subordinate? TF:  I think we just talked about that where you’re their leader, and that’s where I think it’s your accountability as a leader to really in private work with them to understand where’s this coming from? These are your expectations. These are of the observations This is how it’s made you feel, or others feel or what have you. AW: I think your privacy comment needs to be double underline there, no matter who it is TF: absolutely it this is something that’s confidential. And then in terms of a boss, I’d say it’s somewhat similar. Hopefully you’ve created or trying to focus on creating a good working relationship. You don’t have to be best friends, but a good working relationship and it’s the same thing. I would say the peers probably the most challenging, AW: probably the most common too? TF: I see relationships amongst peers, where there’s no clear accountabilities. I always encourage: first, go to the person directly, because it’s much easier to catch it, you’ve got more examples. And it honestly, it actually helps build the relationship going forward. So that’s where I recommend taking people out for coffee for lunch walk. And what I found effective is really trying to get them outside of the normal environment. So go for a walk to the coffee shop or to lunch or get to know them as a person. Because once you know someone more on a personal level, it’s amazing how much better you can work together. AW: That’s true. That’s true. Your comment about having a difficult boss reminded me of the story when I had a very, very difficult manager and I remember I called my dad who lived in a different city and I said, Dad, I don’t know what to do, because I don’t respect him. And he’s incredibly difficult. And he said, Well, here’s two questions. Number one Does his personality and his behavior represent the culture of the firm you’re at? Because if it does, you need to get out of there. And I said, No, it doesn’t. He said, Okay, so you’re probably fine. And number two, does this provide a learning opportunity for you? I said, Well, yeah, how not to treat my subordinates. And he said, Okay, so you’re all good. TF: Great questions. AW: Yeah, thanks, Dad. So in my mind, I have a hierarchy of responses going from ignore it to implicitly dealing with it to explicitly having a conversation with the person which I hear is your main recommendation. And then the last rung of that hierarchy is going to your boss or going to the HR department and formally complaining, under what conditions would that be the ideal response? TF: based on your continuum, (A) that you’ve actually observed this type of behavior with your own eyes, and (B) if you haven’t been successful in resolving it on your own, or (C) it’s escalated in terms of impact. That’s where I think the whole escalation process comes into play. AW: Okay, what does HR do when someone comes in and says, This person is making my life hell? like that something’s got to happen, or I’m leaving? TF: Well, it depends on what it is again. And actually, interestingly enough, it comes back to your dad’s questions to understand is this behavior, what we want? Is that who we are as an organization? If it’s not aligned, then we need to understand is this a one off? Is it circumstantial? Or is it inherent? And if so, have we not done our job in terms of acquiring talent to ensure that they’ve got the same values as we as an organization AW: and or clarifying what the expectations are? TF: Exactly. AW: Okay. Is there anything else you want to add about communicating with difficult people? TF: I keep coming back to this. We’re human and we have emotions, and we’re not robots. So treat people like humans connect with them on a personal level. And remember the whole SCARF model. I think it’s a phenomenal model in terms of how we control and manage our own emotions and know our own trigger points, as well as for others and recognizing it in others. AW: Thank you very much Tamara, for sharing your insights and your expertise about dealing with difficult people. TF: Thank you for having me. I’ve really enjoyed our dialogue and I’ve learned a few new things to try. AW: Oh, me too! Thank you.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]          TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker, parent, partner and friend.        TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that will help us catapult our career and enrich our relationships by providing us with communication skills and confidence.”           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2439-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2439 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2439 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2439-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2439-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2439-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2439-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2439-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2439 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2439 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2439 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #39 Communicating with NEGATIVE PEOPLE – with HR expert Tamara Finlay appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Gift-giving is a highly symbolic form of communication. Are you a good gift giver? In this podcast you will learn how to think about gift-giving more rationally, with research-based tips about what matters and what doesn’t. Here’s a hint: We should worry less about how much money we spend. It’s typically the “low substance, high sentiment” gifts that are appreciated. It really is the thought that counts! References & Links Gift-Giving Mauss, Marcel (1924) THE GIFT https://archive.org/details/giftformsfunctio00maus/page/n9 Belk, Russell W. (1976) “It’s The Thought That Counts: A Signed Digraph Analysis of Gift-Giving” Journal of Consumer Research Belk & Coon (1991) “Can’t Buy me Love: Money, Dating & Gifts” Association for Consumer Research Geisler, Markus (2006) “Consumer Gift Systems” Journal of Consumer Research Sherry, John F. (1983) “Gift-Giving in Anthropological Perspective” Journal of Consumer Research Sherry, McGrath & Levy (1993) “The Dark Side of the Gift” Journal of Business Research Ward, Morgan K., & Broniarczyk, Susan M. (2011) “It’s Not Me, It’s You: How Gift Giving Creates Giver Identity Threat as a Function of Social Closeness” Journal of Consumer Research Wooten, David B. (2000) “Qualitative Steps Toward an Expanded Model of Anxiety in Gift-Giving” Journal of Consumer Research Professor Russell Belk Professor Belk’s York University Schulich faculty page Talk About Talk episode #17: What Our Possessions Say Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup (sign up now to get your FREE printable PDF of the “5 Steps to Improve your Communication Skills – ABCDE”) Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]                  TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker,  parent, partner and friend.         TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that will help us catapult our career and enrich our relationships by providing us with communication skills and confidence.”           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. The post #38 GIFT-GIVING appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you know when to use the phone or email?  What about text, social media, and face-to-face meetings? How do you feel when you hear the phone ring?  In this podcast episode, HR expert Tamara Finlay shares advice and frameworks to help you choose the ideal communication media or platform to optimize your communication.   REFERENCES & LINKS Tamara Finlay LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamarafinlay/ Recommendations: FastCompany Allegra Shaw   Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Talk About Talk podcast episodes mentioned: How to Conquer your Email Inbox Authenticity with Ana Serrano Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website: https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us, Tamara. Tamara Finlay: It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for including me. AW: Okay, let’s back up and provide some context. First, what are the main media that you’ve observed people using at work – to communicate? TF: Now obviously, there’s all kinds. There are all your typical ones, like email, text, chats, everything else. The list continues to grow, and nothing’s falling off. I think that’s where we’re, all of a sudden, the pace of change is just so rapid fire. As our world gets faster and faster and more complicated, I like to bring it back to basics. Why are we communicating? We’re communicating because we want to connect with people. We want to connect either intellectually, or emotionally, or to do something – more the action piece of it. It’s either the head, the heart or the hands. Depending on what you’re trying to engage, is going to depend on what communication style or what communicate channel you’re going to use. So if you’re trying to engage the head, you’ve got a lot more communication channels that you can use, you can pretty much use most of them. Whether it’s email, text, or face to face in meetings, pretty much any of it works. But when you’re trying to connect with the heart, it’s all about emotions. It’s all about relationships. Nothing beats that more than in person, face to face, because 55% is body language, right? And you lose all that. And that’s why there are so many misinterpretations – when it’s heavily email or text or other communication methods, other than the face to face.   AW: And if you’re in a sensitive context, as you said, if it’s emotional or heart driven, then perhaps that nonverbal communication is even more important. TF: Exactly. Because you want a bit of more of the two way dialogue. It’s really hard to have two way dialogue in an email or a text. AW: That’s a great point! TF: And then the hands … so the three H’s or the head, heart and hands, the third one is the hands, that’s really where you can be quite directive, task oriented, and that’s really where the written word is fine. And that’s where emails, chat, text is absolutely fine. AW: Okay, so the hands just to clarify is about what we’re doing next, it’s clarifying next steps, for example, in a project at work could be could be a subordinate clarifying next steps with his or her boss or vice versa. TF: Exactly, or an event just confirming details, location, that type of thing. AW: Okay, you said so many things there that caught my attention that we could unpack. Your first point about more and more medium being introduced into our communication opportunities. Of course, that’s true, but I hadn’t actually thought about the fact that we are being overwhelmed with more and more apps, platforms, and different communication medium and nothing’s falling off. TF: It’s so true. And it’s interesting because having worked my entire career in more mature organizations that are quite traditional in terms of how we approach work… When I joined a FinTech company just over a year ago, I had quite a bit of culture shock. So I was used to somewhat less paper. But this was literally no paper, all the offices or cubicles were open spaces. They were lucky you got a drawer. So clearly, it was all on the digital in one of our key communication tools is Slack. Now, it’s I think they would describe as a collaborative team tool. We use it for pretty much all our internal communications. You can do it individually as text messaging, you can do it as groups, which are called Slack Channels. And I’m embarrassed to say that it took me probably over a month to figure out you could actually call through Slack. AW: Oh, really, I didn’t know that. So just for some other context here, I have an episode on conquering your email inbox and Slack came up as an opportunity – as a technology hack – to conquer your email and I read in a couple of articles that is widely used within organizations. And previously, some industry observers or analysts thought that it may replace email, but it certainly isn’t doing that. But it sounds like it’s alive and well and doing well. You tell me: Does it work? TF: I think it’s fantastic. It’s certainly what I love. It was actually refreshing once I kind of figure it out. And you can also attach items to it as well – like a document and what have you. And you can delete it and remove it if it’s highly sensitive, confidential. So that’s obviously a lot of the work that I do. What I love about it is that it’s all internal. So if I’m looking or referencing back to anything from anyone within the organization, I go to Slack. Email typically is just for external. Okay, so this is really new to anyone over the age of 30, I’m sure or anyone who’s not in a startup environment. Quite honestly, it’ll take a while before large organizations. I’m sure there’s groups within larger organizations that are using it. AW: The other thing that you mentioned, your head, heart and hands framework is absolutely beautiful. It’s probably an effective way of just making a simple decision about what communication tool you can use. So as an HR professional, do you hear from people or perhaps have observed them failing to use the most effective communication mediums? So – not thinking about the three H’s? TF: Of course, I think we all get caught up in that. And unfortunately, being in human resources, we often see the negative impact of that and the unintended consequences. AW: HR is not hearing about the great wins. I mean, unless someone’s formealy winning an award probably, right? But they’re not coming to you saying, guess what we did great today?  They’re coming with problems. TF: Right, exactly. A lot of the time we’re cleaning up messes quite frankly. AW: have you heard of situations where either people are complaining about other people not using their communication medium effectively, or that was your diagnosis? So there’s something catastrophic happened within the organization. There was something blew up and then your diagnosis is well, you know what it may have been because of the communication medium they should have been face to face when they were using text …? TF: For sure. Obviously, that’s more of a regular occurrence. As we get more and more communication channels. One of the things that we try to do is understand about behaviors. But what’s coming across and is being communicated to us is about a person. AW: So in your experience in helping people to communicate most effectively, have you noticed a correlation between age and media preference? TF: I think the reality is Millennials are the first generation that have grown up with the internet right? So obviously, their natural go to and obviously gross generalizations is: quick text and things on their smartphone, and all that. But just like with any other generation, you’re going to get the full spectrum. And as a Gen X, I love texts. Being in the right circumstances. AW: So we shouldn’t be stereotyping broadly that everyone in Generation Z is a certain way everyone in Generation X a certain way, Millennials act a certain way. But they’re probably, as you say, are some general trends. One of my listeners, actually on social media , was sharing his story about personally hiring a contractor. And this gentleman is in his, I think, his early 70s. He’s working full time, highly productive, and he went to hire a contractor and this contractor insisted on emailing and texting him and he’s like, we need to talk. He said, I gave him three shots where I said, we can set up a meeting, or you can call me again, we can set up a meeting or you can call me three times and then he said, I just let it go. I went to another guy. Yes, he was older. He came and saw me. We communicated through telephone, and he got the job. So I mean, there actually is something at stake here. To me, that story illustrates a gentleman who was trying to provide an olive branch. Like talk to me on my terms and here’s what they are, and it was ignored, and then the guy didn’t get the job.   So I think it’s a valid point. It’s a two way street. Again, know your audience, regardless of the age of this gentleman, he preferred to communicate in person. If this is your boss, and it’s a preferred communication style, you learn to adapt. Well, I actually created an acronym, ACE. AW: I love acronyms!  I love it. Because it’s helpful to remember right? TF: Absolutely. AW: an acronym. Let’s do it. TF: Exactly. So it’s: know your AUDIENCE is the A. And it could be an individual or a group, what’s their preferred method of communication? And then the C is CONTENT. So why are you communicating? Is it confidential or not? And what is it that you’re communicating? AW: And that also could be the head heart and hands thing? Yes? TF: Yeah, exactly. AW: Beautiful. So you actually have your three H framework coming into your Ace acronym. I love it. TF: Exactly. And then the E is the ENVIRONMENT. A lot of the work I do is confidential. If I want to have a confidential discussion, knowing that the person that’s on the receiving end is in a car with a bunch of other people, I clearly don’t want to do it that way. I may choose to do a text or schedule some other time. AW: Brilliant. When you and I were preparing for this interview, I independently created a list of criteria for choosing the most appropriate and effective communication medium. And you’ve just gone through how you can use this as framework. But are there any other specific criteria? TF: Sure, email is a great tool. If you’re really confirming decisions that were made, made steps next action items, if you want to go back and reference something that’s actually a great tool. AW: So that would be – in your three H framework – that would be the hands. TF: Okay, exactly. And then there’s handwritten or typed letters. Again, this comes back to what I said at the beginning where we just keep adding stuff but nothing’s coming off. Some people may have forgotten about that. And in fact, as I thought about this is like, could you even recognize your colleagues or friends handwriting at this point? AW: Interesting question. Yeah. So think of the impact that would have though, if you actually gave someone a handwritten note, because it’ll blow them away. TF: Exactly. And really you would stand out. For sure. It  depends on what you’re trying to do. Then phone calls and face to face. Again, that’s where you’re coming back to that’s more of the heart. If you want to connect emotionally, if you want to brainstorm if you want a two way dialogue, that’s where that’s probably the best use. AW: So another way of putting that I think, is if the tone really matters, of course, tone always matters. But if the tone really matters, if something sensitive, and you want to capture people’s body language, that’s where it comes into play as well. Got it. TF: Now. One of the downsides of that is which is really about collaboration. It just takes more time. So you have to factor that in and build that in and that’s why the other thing is – I think people are defaulting to the text or what have you. Because it’s fast, but what it does is it takes it off your plate and puts it on someone else’s plate, and you have no idea if they’ve actually caught that ball. AW: This is a slight diversion from this list of communication media options, but you’re making me think about the implications of people working at home. TF: So you know, what’s interesting is if you do it remotely all the time, absolutely, and I know of a company how they’ve done this – because they’ve got a lot of remote workers around the world, which I found fascinating. They have designated robots with video cameras that you can control remotely to do your drop ins. AW: Oh my gosh, we need to add this to our list of media. TF: Exactly. It is a bit mind blowing. But where there’s a will there’s a way. AW: wow, you know, where I thought you were headed. I thought you were gonna say on the two days per week when you’re at home, you do as much as you can on email, a little bit on phone, think about the things that you can’t do face to face and then on the two or three days when you’re in your office, of course, that’s when you both your formal meetings and you do your informal lunches or dropping by someone’s office to say hello or to share something. TF: Absolutely, that’s where you just have to be very diligent and really make a concerted effort. It’s really hard to build relationships remotely, it’s easier to maintain remotely. So even if you’re a remote worker, it’s if you can have that initial period of building. So whether you go there on site for a brief period of time up front, then it’s much easier to do that. AW: That could also be a criteria for choosing the media, right? So one of the other criteria that you can use for deciding which medium is most appropriate and effective is the stage of the relationship. That was not on my list before. TF: That’s actually a really good way of looking at it. I haven’t thought about it that way. AW: But you’re right. TF: You articulated it back to me in a different way. Wow. So all companies need to be technology companies … Pretty much every company I know is saying we’re trying to maximize people and cultures as a competitive advantage. But the people that are winning in this are really the ones that can execute effectively on it. AW: Right. What do you think about Zoom calls or Skype calls or FaceTime? TF: I think it’s a great proxy for face to face. Obviously, you need to have good technology and bandwidth for it can be effective. It’s not 100%. But it’s definitely better because you do see some of the body language you do see some of the interaction if it’s more of a group thing, but you still don’t get it all because once the video is turned off, you have no idea what’s going on afterwards. AW: That’s right. There’s the explicit conversation that’s going on. And then there’s the subtext, right? Unless you’re face to face talking to someone, there’s often a subtext and even in board meetings, we think about people texting each other under the table, right? they’ve literally got their phone under the table and they’re texting other people. TF: Oh, for sure! One of the things that I learned and really resonate with me is it’s really maximize that subject line. I’m one of these people that gets bombarded with emails, I’m just scanning. If the subject line attracts my attention, then I open the email, otherwise it remains closed forever. AW: I actually mentioned that in the podcast episode about conquering your email inbox, you can use it to highlight important details, I guess, especially again, back to your point about email. It’s the hands, it’s the tasks and the next steps and what better way to highlight that. TF:  Exactly. So you want – in terms of action – the required by date, you want to highlight whatever the key critical items are in the email. The other thing that I learned is, how do you know what you’re communicating is being received as intended? AW: Great question. TF: That’s why we have a lot of these challenges, because there’s so much room for misinterpretation when it’s just words on paper,  in email, what have you,  and not the full body language and nonverbal cues. Email is really more about one way. Yes, you could argue it’s two way but how do you know they’ve even opened your email? AW: Right. TF: How do you know they read it? How do you know they’ve actually read it? AW: So I think that’s one of the reasons that emojis have become so popular so quickly, is people are saying I want to make sure the person knows – I’m being sarcastic. So I’m going to put a little winky emoji. Or I want to make sure the person understands that that was a joke. So I’m going to put the laughter emoji. TF: That’s a very valid point. They try to put a bit of the emotion accentuating their key message, AW: But it’s almost a cliche, right? that you’re not sure if the person was serious or not. And it’s email and Oh, boy, you’re missing so much context of the communication TF: Right, exactly. AW: So I have another question for you related to email. What do you think about Reply All? TF: I’m not a big fan. And it really depends on what it is. If it’s something that’s a value to everyone on the distribution list, then it makes sense. The majority of the time I don’t believe that actually add any value. It it just clutters people’s email box even more. And it makes you look bad because you’re not valuing and respecting their time or their inbox, so to speak. AW: So I agree 100%. I think people need to really think hard about each individual. And if you’re like, well, I can’t think about each individual will then take them off the list. TF: Exactly. So again, that comes to ACE – the Audience. AW: Absolutely. TF: So who is your Audience? And then you go into the Content. So why are you communicating what value is it to them. So that’s why I really like these two frameworks, because you can pretty much bring it all back to that. AW: That’s fantastic. So we can fold in all the other criteria that we talked about. Some communication medium may be more expensive. So I’m thinking at the extreme is you have to fly to another continent or whatever – another city – to meet with someone face to face. That’s kind of the extreme cost, right? TF: That’s pretty much the only one that really has a cost associated with it.  I would argue the other costs are the cost of doing business. If you don’t have access to some type of video conference in today’s day and age, then I don’t know how you’re still in business, to be honest. It’s the travel costs for the face to face. And that’s where hopefully, there’s been some budget for the initial relationship building and then the maintaining can be done in the video conferencing or other methods. AW: The other side of cost that’s not monetary, though is the convenience factor, the time factor. And there’s kind of two ways of thinking about that as well. There’s how much time is it costing me to produce this communication, this one way communication that I’ve initiated? And then for the receiver, it’s do they have to respond immediately? Or is for example, picking up the phone, right? Or can they do it on their own time? And this is what I hear from a lot of younger people. I’d rather text or email because then I get it off my plate and it’s up to the person when it’s convenient for them to respond. TF: Yeah. AW: head nods! I mean, so but I’m basing this comment about older people preferring phone based on the five rapid fire questions. And I always ask what’s your communication medium of choice for casual conversations. And there is a very, very high correlation between age and media choice, where older people are very consistently saying face to face in the phone, and younger people are saying text and email. TF: And again, I think it all comes down to the environment we all grew up in. And it depends how much of a learner you are. I’m a lifelong learner. I love learning about new tools and new things. And if there’s a better faster way of doing it, absolutely. But this also reminds me more about how millennials approach work in general. And an example is when work has been assigned to me as a Gen X. I think, okay, these are all my tools such as Microsoft Office, what have you. How can I make the tools work for me to get my job done? What I’ve been fascinated and absolutely love is what I’ve seen Millennials do. They’ll first Google anything, and reach… AW: …including the how to how to do what I’ve been just told to do? TF: exactly. And reach out to their network. And they can get a far more comprehensive solution way faster. That’s not even the future. This is the now. So quite frankly, I think some of the dinosaurs need to start adapting but also the Millennials need to also adapt. I think there’s a happy medium and it’s knowing when to use what. AW: so I just recently whenever an appliance breaks – so my first was my dishwasher was leaking, and then my refrigerator started leaking. Guess what? I fixed both by going to YouTube. The poor service guys. Although some of the more pioneering ones are actually producing the YouTube videos and they are getting 10s of thousands of hits. TF: Well, and I think this all comes to technological advances in general, all the basic stuff. Absolutely. How fantastic is that? Because leave the repair people to do the complex stuff. I’m sure that’s what they want anyway, they don’t want to be doing the basic stuff. So you can apply that to pretty much any work. So as long as it’s continuously learning and growing, and we all need to do that you’re either going forward or going backwards, there’s no standing still. AW: I will quote you on that. I like that. Is there anything else you want to add? I think one of the most important things that I learned from this conversation is the audience content and environment acronym. So the ACE acronym and then within that, particularly the under the C – Content, the head, heart and hands framework. Is there anything else you want to add for listeners just to think about when they’re choosing which medium to use for communication? TF: I think a good reminder is just remember, we’re all human. We’re not robots. It’s a good reminder to just to pause and think about why they’re doing what they’re doing, sending the right communication to the right people at the right time, for AW: Okay, so now we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions. So first question, what are your pet peeves? TF: I think my biggest pet peeve is closed mindedness. I’m a lifelong learner. I love to learn. I think it’s really important that everyone does, AW: I can imagine someone coming into your office who’s struggling, and you may be diagnosing the fact that they are not a lifelong learner and they don’t have an open mind. TF: I think the reason why people aren’t is because of fear. And so then it comes back to the scarf model, right? You’re either moving forward or backwards, there’s no standing still. So people may think they’re standing still, when actually they’re being left behind. AW: Brilliant that is absolutely eloquent. And I am definitely going to quote you end up in a big red box on social media. Next question, what type of learner are you? TF: I’m a fast learner for sure. And I learned by doing so doing and seeing AW: Okay, Question number three introvert or extrovert? TF: I was gonna say you guess, but I definitely get my energy from people so I guess that makes me an extrovert. AW: I can definitely tell that you are an extrovert. You probably love being interviewed but also doing interviewing. TF: for sure. I love both sides. AW: I can see that. Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations. TF: So my bias 0 I put it out there – my personal preference because I’m a relationship person. I love people and really connecting emotionally one on one so I’m all about the face to face. AW: Okay, last Rapid Fire question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? TF: The first one that jumps to mind is FastCompany. Are you familiar with FastCompany? AW: i subscribe. TF: I absolutely love it. I was very excited when Fast Company went online. I’m a techie at heart. I actually started as a computer programmer in banking banking at one of our big five banks…. So I love all their focus on new technology on innovation and that really fuels my creativity. AW: I’m with you and I will gladly share a link for the listeners to that. Is there anything else? TF: I’ve got a few others. Another one that actually is a friend of mines daughter. Her name is Allegra Shaw and she’s a lifestyle and fashion blogger, Instagram or and YouTuber, and she’s been doing it since she was in high school. And because she’s a Millennial, I’m fascinated how they choose to communicate and interact with each other and the broader population. AW: So I’ll get the link from you for her as well for sure for her Instagram account and YouTube channel. Is there anything else you want to add to share with listeners about choosing the optimal communication medium for their communication? TF: I think it’s just again, another reminder: We’re human and humans have a need to connect emotionally. So just pause before you just start hitting send or firing things off. And just again, I think the frameworks are helpful, especially the, the head, heart and hand to figure out what it is you’re trying to do and why. AW: Brilliant, thank you very much for your time and for your insights to me. TF: You’re welcome. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. That was fantastic.   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]                  Talk About Talk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker, parent, partner and friend.   Talk About Talk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that catapults our career and enriches our relationships by providing us with communication skills and confidence.”         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2379-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2379 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2379 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2379-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2379-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2379-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2379-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2379-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2379 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2379 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2379 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #37 COMMUNICATION MEDIA: Phone or Email – with HR expert Tamara Finlay appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Youth mental health concerns such as anxiety and depression are common. Nicole German, founder of The Maddie Project, shares her experience and thoughtful advice to parents, family members, coaches, teachers, anyone who interacts with youth.  We need to step-it-up with awareness, empathy, and advocacy. “Anything we can do is goodness.” Doing little things and doing big things will make an impact, potentially saving a life.  Shine bright! REFERENCES & LINKS Nicole German & The Maddie Project  The Maddie Project – http://www.themaddieproject.ca/ Donation Page – https://my.charitableimpact.com/campaigns/the-maddie-project-0350d836-cf47-4735-8602-a57990626e03 Maddie’s Healing Garden at North York General Hospital – https://nyghfoundation.ca/news-and-publications/north-york-general-opens-first-of-its-kind-outpatient-mental-health-centre-for-youth/ Email – [email protected] Twitter – @nicgerman and @maddie_project Instagram – maddie_project Facebook-https://www.facebook.com/themaddieproject Other Mental Health Resources Kids’ Help Phone – https://kidshelpphone.ca Children’s Mental Health Ontario: https://www.cmho.org/ Suicide Prevention Lifeline – https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ CAMH – Centre for Addiction & Mental Health – http://www.camh.ca/ Huffington Post – “Frame of Mind” Series – https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/news/frame-of-mind/ Other articles: https://projects.nj.com/features/depression/index.html https://www.fastcompany.com/90414436/mental-health-symptoms-reported-by-60-of-employees-study Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki “Beyond Condolences: Supporting Your Grieving Friends” podcast episode – https://talkabouttalk.com/19s2-supporting-our-grieving-friends-with-psychotherapist-grief-counsellor-andrea-warnick/ Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website: https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT  Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Nicole, for taking the time and sharing your story with us today. Nicole German: Great. Thanks for having me. AW: So I thought it would be nice if you could start by telling us a bit about Maddie. NG: Sure. So I’m the mom of three kids. And Madeline, who we also call Maddie, was my oldest daughter. And so she was one of the easiest babies you could ever imagine. Actually, she was very easy going. And then when she had two younger brothers, she really became the nurturer. So typical big sister looking out for her two younger brothers. And then as she progressed through life, I would say was definitely on the spectrum of high performance, whether it was academically or through sports. And very social, very well liked. And as she approached adolescence and puberty, some things started to really change for her. And I think as first time parents, we weren’t really sure whether this was just things that were from a puberty perspective, or there was really more to it. So  she progressed into middle school and high school. She started to struggle with,  not being able to get her homework done, or not wanting to go to sports to compete, sometimes not going out with friends. And the reality was that we thought it was just a phase. But in fact, what we learned over time was she had anxiety and pretty severe anxiety. And so, the thing with anxiety is that it’s really hard to focus when you have anxiety. And when you can’t focus, it’s hard to do homework and then when you don’t do homework, you don’t do well in school, which makes you feel terrible. And it becomes really this vicious circle and so in essence, that was really the beginning of a journey for Madeline and her struggling with anxiety and in essence depression. AW: Can you tell us a little bit about The Maddie Project? NG: Sure. Madeline struggled with depression for a number of years and it got more challenging over time. And it really came to the point where she passed away from depression. So she took her own life and at that moment when we had to communicate to people that she had died and why she had died, it was like these floodgates opened up. There were so many families, actually, from grandparents to parents to teachers and coaches and even youth themselves that came forward and told their story that either they had a sibling or a child or a parent that either they had lost to suicide and depression but never spoken about it, or that they were in fact struggling. And so what became very apparent was that it was sort of this hidden disease that nobody really wanted to talk about, AW: would you say taboo? NG: Definitely taboo. And I think there was a there was a shame and so when Madeline was sick, she was in hospital and she really said, “Mommy, don’t tell anybody that I’m here.” And so we really were living these two lives where, at the end of work every day, we were rushing to the hospital to be with her, but nobody knew,  outside of very close family and a few friends.  You kind of equate it to say,  if my child has  cancer and was in hospital for cancer, there would be no question that we would talk about that. But because she was there because she had attempted suicide, it was taboo to speak about and fear that she would be judged. Right. AW: So do you feel like that is changing a little bit? NG: Yeah. So I mean, I think it’s a spectrum, if we kind of think back to kind of the  One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest kind of perspective, we’ve made huge strides. I would say that the youth now that I see are speaking more openly about mental health, which I think is great. I think when it comes to, youth and their parents, if you’ve kind of lived it, people are more open, but there’s still a real hesitancy or sort of a judgment on how to even respond to that, right? Because it’s complex, and it’s also hard to relate to it. As my youngest son would say, it’s really an invisible disease. And you don’t really know when it’s going to show up right… AW: invisible disease. That’s, that’s amazing. I did a podcast episode with a grief counselor a couple of months ago. And she was just talking about how even death itself is taboo. So it’s almost as if there’s a second layer then, right? Because you’ve experienced a death, of a very close family member. Yeah. And it was through suicide. NG: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I find, when Madeline was struggling, it was it was very hard for me to relate and understand, because I very much grew up in the world of: if you get up and have a shower and wash your face, you’ll feel better. But the reality is that depression isn’t like that. Like when you say you can’t get out of bed. It’s truly because you can’t get out of bed. And now having lived through a tremendous tragedy, and experience, grief. It’s very relatable. The notion of saying I don’t have the energy to get out of bed, and it’s incredibly frustrating. I mean, there were moments and – there still are, I mean, it’s a number of years later, where I don’t have the energy to drive my boys to sports because I just I physically don’t. And you know, calling in that favor without kind of explaining why… it’s challenging, and some people think, sometimes you feel like oh, I’m not being a great parent. But again, grief has some of those symptoms that are similar to things like depression and in that way, right? AW: Even like PTSD? NG: And even PTSD, exactly right. And so I think, having that self-awareness of saying, it’s okay, it’s okay that today’s a day that you need to just be okay to yourself and allow others to help you. AW: Part of that is what you’re doing here today – being on this podcast and hopefully encouraging other people to have open conversations – whether they themselves are experiencing mental health issues or talking about mental health concerns. NG: Right and I think we all have mental health. It’s really a spectrum you have your up and days down. I used to say to Madeline that everybody has these challenges and some people have different levels of resilience at different moments in their life. And so the complexity of  whether it’s everything from nutrition to biology to heredity to social to just environments,. And so I think we all have good days and bad days. And so you can equate it to that. Right? And it’s very much a spectrum. AW: So does it help to equate it to our physical health? I mean, it sounds as if what you’re describing are symptoms of someone who is physically exhausted or maybe has the flu. Right? NG: Exactly. I mean, everything, just for clarity. this is always my own perspective. I’m not a professional. And I believe that mental health is like nutrition, we should wake up and think about it every day, right?  And where are we on our scale? And so there are physical symptoms, but sometimes there aren’t. Sometimes it’s literally something that might trigger you to react in some way. We have to really have our eyes wide open. I’ll give an example of Madeline in particular, when she was 11. She had these severe stomach aches Everything else was she was functioning perfectly well doing well in school sports, everything. And I took it to every doctor under the sun. And we had all of these tests, not a single one said anxiety, because everything else in her life seemed perfectly A-Okay. And I know now in hindsight, for sure, that was anxiety and it went away over time. And so she got she got better with her stomach aches. But again, it was just like not kind of having the eyes-wide-open to sort of say, maybe there is more to this and maybe it is something like anxiety.  When she was young she was a perfectionist. She wouldn’t do her printing at Montessori because she wanted it to be perfect. And so if she couldn’t do it perfectly, she didn’t want to do it at all, right? So again, like when you kind of look,… AW:   it’s always hindsight is 20-20. NG: Of course, but I think those are the things that are for all of us. And any adults that are exposed to kids are just like… the kids that go on are starting to go off the rails. Or acting differently than when they were children, those are the kids that we actually need to empathize with. Rather than label them, say, Oh, that’s the bad one, I don’t want you hanging out with that child anymore because they’re a bit of a troublemaker, but actually, you know what? They are not intentionally bad, there’s more to their story. And so, I always tell parents – that’s when you need to invite them over for the family dinner, and sometimes getting out of their own family space to kind of make sure that they’re ok. AW: So, as parents and caregivers and teachers, we’re always constantly monitoring children for their physical health ailments, right? It’s like this mental health spectrum needs to be assessed and we need to be aware of it. It’s just awareness. Right? NG: Absolutely. It’s awareness and it’s empathy. It’s realizing that the kids are under a lot of pressure to perform these days and to really race through life. And the reality is, is that there’s no hurry, and there’s no rush. But also to kind of coach them through these types of scenarios. And so if they don’t do well on a test, let’s sit down and help coach them through that, right, the more that we can kind of teach them at a young age to get through those challenging times, but also just those basic resilience or, mindfulness or, when I’m feeling stressed, how do I breathe? Or how do I think? Or how do I take a moment to … really consciously give them those life skills to kind of take them on, throughout the course of their life? AW: It’s like resilience training, but getting it really down to physically and mentally – what’s going on? NG: Exactly. AW: Do you have advice for parents and maybe someone who’s listening to this? And they’re thinking, Oh, my gosh, my son or my daughter sounds like that. And maybe it’s been in the back of their mind and maybe because it still is, to some extent a taboo in our culture. They haven’t done anything about it. Whereas if it was a physical ailment, they would have called their medical doctor, can you recommend what they should do? NG: Yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, at least in Canada, and lots of countries around the world, it’s very hard to get access to care whether it’s paid or not paid or through health care. It’s a challenge because there’s such a great demand. So number one is that as a parent, you need to advocate for your child’s health care, first and foremost. So don’t wait. As soon as you start to see signs, speak openly with the child to let them know that if something’s not feeling, right, that’s okay. They don’t need to know why that just that they need to kind of check in to explain that and then bring in that community or that circle of care. Yeah, it’s really for kids to articulate if they’re feeling off. AW: They don’t have to know the answer why, right? NG: Or if they’re feeling tired, or they don’t feel like going out with their friends, or they can’t focus.  Really, the first step is allowing those kids to put their – encouraging those kids to put their hand up for help. And whether that’s with a parent or an adult that’s trusted. But often cases, there may not be a solution out of the gates. But just to know that someone’s there for you is incredibly important, especially,  at early stages. AW: So in addition to encouraging kids to put their hand up, as you said, to say something’s wrong, even if they don’t know why, what else can parents do in terms of helping their children? NG: So the first step is going to your family doctor. Letting them know, see how they can help to triage and really do some assessment. And then the next part of that is really looking within your community in terms of what access to care there is. So in some cases, there are walk-in clinics or resources at school. So really, look within the community of care to see what’s available and continue to pursue, even if there are waitlists. But to continue to, of course, put yourself on the waitlist, but keep calling back, especially if it’s a more severe scenario. In the case of acuteness, or if you’re worried about suicidal ideation or what have you, don’t take it lightly. Definitely go to your local hospital. I think that’s something where, even if kids are talking about that, it’s not something that we should take lightly. And then there’s a number of triage centers, like Kids Help Phone can help. There’s the navigation program that can really sort of say, I’m in this situation now, based on what you’re hearing,  what, what are those best solutions? AW: So really be looking for access to care that way and being a proactive advocate? NG: Absolutely proactive. And so to the degree that you can, making sure that their teachers, guidance counselors, even coaches and close friends of parents are aware that, they’re struggling. Because I think the greater that community of care is, the more supportive they will be of the child, whether it’s your own kid or someone else’s. AW: I love that point. NG: Yeah, exactly. And I think for the kids too. We talk a lot about never leaving anybody behind. And even just having that notion of, it’s sort of basic principles but like treat everyone the way that you would be wanting to be treated. Because you don’t always know what’s going on behind the scenes. So if someone’s kind of off on their own or seems to be struggling, you don’t have to be best friends with them. But just  saying hello or being there or, walking down the hall with them. I think it’s really encouraging as well. AW:  Nicole, honestly, when I pick my kids up from school today, I’m going to be talking to them differently because they always tell me stories about quote unquote bad kids. NG: Yeah. AW: Yeah. And instead of saying, oh, man, just what was that kid thinking? It’ll be: What do you think’s going on? NG: Exactly. And I think, when you lose someone or you’ve been close to, dealing with someone struggling with pretty severe mental health challenges, it changes your perspective completely. For me it’s still feels very irrational and how you can lose someone that way? But it’s an illness, right? And so it’s not like they intended it.  Typically when you see someone in public environments, you know, whether they’re on the street or whatever, each of those individuals have a story, right? So even if it’s a young child and they’re being at quote unquote bad kid,  maybe there’s more to it. Right. I think I think that’s,  the way that we should look, especially for young people, because, they’re just still little AW: and they’re still learning. NG: Yeah, exactly. AW: Learning to deal with the world and also with themselves. NG: Exactly. AW: So when I was preparing for this interview, I read something that you wrote that’s online, and you said, doing little things and doing big things to help. Can you describe what that means? NG: When The Maddie Project was sort of formed, and we had great community engagement, we worked together with North York General Hospital to support Maddie’s Healing Garden. So we pledged to raise a million dollars – which for me, well, it was a legacy for my daughter – was a big monkey on my back to have to raise a million dollars and  not being a fundraiser … and so it was momentous. And we had incredible support to make that happen, and it’s been fully funded and open now, which is amazing. But what I realized is that anything that we can do is goodness, right? And so whether it’s $20 at a bake sale, or just wearing a T shirt with The Maddie Project or Shine Bright on the back.  People say, Oh, what is that? and saying, Oh, it’s,  for Youth Mental Health, just having that conversation is so critical. And my sons are engaged in their school communities and speaking. And we say, if you touch one kid in that audience, and they go home and tell mom or dad or their trusted adult, that they’re struggling, like, you’ve saved a life, potentially, right? Like you’ve made a huge impact. So just as we say, just by sparking conversations, we’re making change. AW: Wow, that is incredibly inspiring. Is there anything else you want to say to parents in particular, again, perhaps coaches or teachers, about mistakes, from your perspective that you see them commonly making or things that you wish they knew? NG: I think the biggest thing there is empathy. I think to the point around, we all have rules and regulations. But when you see a kid that particularly – you’ve known in the past is acting differently. Just that notion of eyes-wide-open is not to judge based on their behavior at that moment, but just know who they are. Or that,  we as humans are all good people. So I think particularly these kids, they’re up against such different environments, and  20 years ago, the pressures that they live, and so I think that would be one point, but most importantly, is to have an open dialogue about mental health at the dinner table, with friends, kids’ friends around the table, just making an open conversation. So people aren’t afraid to talk about or aren’t ashamed of speaking about it, not feeling off or having to get extra help from a therapist or  whatever they’re needing to take some days off of school. I think it’s really important that we can just be speak openly .And not to judge. AW: That’s great advice. I want to change gears here a little bit and ask you about the role of social media in adolescent mental health. So we’ve all heard horror stories about kids that have been bullied online, and then they’ve become anxious or depressed or both. And I wondered if you had any perspective on that to share? NG: Yeah, for sure. my professional life is surrounded around social media and social media marketing. And so,  the platforms exist. I think there’s a lot of good, there’s a lot of opportunity around creating connections amongst people, but it’s really exposed a challenge for our kids and a distortion to reality, not just for children, actually for everyone, and in fact, sort of addictions. And so I think the idea of having open conversations around like what reality is, and what isn’t, and then the notion of watching your kids for what they can handle and what they can’t. Because that I idea of posting the perfect picture – or you know – who engaged with it and who didn’t? It’s not even bullying but can be perceived by a young person is feeling like I didn’t  get as many likes or… AW: The like count thing is huge. NG: Yeah, even if there are comments made, it’s not the same as a conversation. What I used to say with Madeline is that when you interact with a person face to face, they would never engage with you in the way that they did online. And so I think every family is different. They chose to how to how to manage and monitor social media for their kids and their families. I think the idea is just again, to be aware of how much time they’re being spent and how it’s actually impacting them in their behavior, right? Because I don’t know that it’s going to go away. And so we just need to make sure that we equip our kids with the right tools on how to engage and how to live with that in their life. AW: I think it’s a very fair point about it being a personal decision about how you how much you monitor. A couple times I’ve sat down with my kids to go through their phones with them. And actually, based on this conversation now, I will try to do that more frequently, but in a different way. Like we would look at people’s posts and say, Why do you think they did that? NG: Yeah. AW: And yeah, do you think there’s a filter on there? And what do you think their goal? Was it to get likes? Or was it to shame someone else? Or – and I love your point about, they would never say it to your face, but they’ll type it there. NG: Exactly. AW: Yeah, I’ve read two pieces of research recently, like within the last two months, I would say, that are interesting. In this context, one said that for teenagers, there’s a simple correlation between hours spent on social media and depression. Full stop. NG: Yeah, I mean, it doesn’t surprise me. I mean, the statistics are there for sure. And I think not just for kids, right? Even for adults. We’re all subject to using that as a primary form of receiving content. So it’s hard to kind of step away and walk away. The idea of  both my boys go off to wilderness camp in the summer and the idea of not having any device around ….so that they actually learn to communicate and articulate. AW:  imagine! NG: Yeah, like, like for multiple days over a month. It is really actually – it’s really important. It’s fundamental. I think again, another point to be eyes wide open is really to understand the statistics. I mean, even after we lost Madeline, I was astounded by the statistics. So,  one in five kids will struggle, only 25% will get access to care for mental health care, and suicide in youth is the second leading cause of death. And so those statistics are real, right? And they’re horrifying, frankly. And I’m a huge believer that if we don’t help these kids today, we’re not going to have a workforce in the future, right? Or we’re not, because I mean, these are our future, or they’re the future workforce. And I think we, whether it’s the government, corporate Canada, and we in the communities, we have to help these kids make sure that they have the tools and the monitoring,  to make sure that their mental health is stable, for the long term. AW: Right. And I just wanted to add the other research that I read said that children’s anxiety goes up when they have their phone in their room – when they’re trying to sleep. And I felt like, well, again, this is not just kids, adults should have their phone outside of their room. Then you’re not thinking about all the texts or whatever the comments that you’re missing from your friends online. You’re just sleeping. Your phone’s beside you, when you’re in bed. You’re not freaking out. My daughter, when I sent her to bed the other night, she said, Mom, if you could see my phone right now, my friends are all chatting. And I’m like, well, maybe three of the 10 are but they’re exhausted. And frankly, you need the sleep. NG: Yeah. Well, and I think while the utility of a phone is amazing, because it frankly does everything for us – you could do grocery shopping and you can interact with people across the world. And so often we have it by our bedside, right? Whether it’s for your alarm or,  make sure that the older teenagers get home on time and things like that. It’s a challenge. Right? And I think Arianna Huffington has done some great research about how do you shut down in the evening right? It’s more around adults – but I think the same practice lies with the, with our young people to realize what is healthy behavior? I get it used to be – in our day – not watching TV. AW: Right! Exactly. NG: Not falling asleep with the TV on in your room or whatever that is. So I think again, it’s the same kind of behavior is really forcing yourself to decompress without that. So that we can get a healthy sleep and kind of clear the mind of, of any types of anxiety. AW:  what helps me a lot is to remind myself that our jobs when we were teenagers was to push boundaries against our parents and it’s the same thing. Now our kids are pushing. It’s their job to seek access to their phone or to try to stay up later and it’s our job to set boundaries that are healthy for them, right? Mentally and physically? NG: Absolutely right. I find it’s challenging. I know in our family, we had discussions of what is age appropriate to get a phone. Once we got to the third child from him having a phone, it gave us a little bit more independence because we knew that he could not only interact with us, but also with his siblings, if you know they were going somewhere together, what have you, and so… AW:  also taking an Uber! NG: Yeah, exactly. Right. So I get it. Back to you can do anything from your phone. But yeah, the notion of boundaries is really important. But again, I think it comes back to like the articulation of why. It’s not just like, you can’t have your phone after 10 o’clock, or whatever the time is. It’s like really? Let’s talk about it right? Like why does this make sense? Or maybe on a Friday night, it’s okay or whatever that is, because they can sleep in or I’m not sure. Again, but just you have to – each person and each kid is so different. AW: I feel like the question of why is a bit of a meta-theme here, with this discussion. You said earlier, that we should be encouraging our children to come to us when they have issues or challenges. Even if they don’t know why, and then we talked about also when someone’s misbehaving, you shouldn’t just accuse them of being bad. You should question why. Why might they be acting that way? Right? NG: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And we always jump to the conclusion or versus really looking at – what are the symptoms?  Is there a rationale? What’s going on? I mean, even for teachers, right, I think, again, schools have to have their rules and the regulations. But not every kid has a diagnosis of anxiety. And I mean, I have a great little story about Madeline. She was in grade nine that she started a new school. The policy was that if you didn’t show up for a test or an assignment, you got zero. And so she had a classroom presentation of which she went to the bathroom because she was having an anxiety attack. So she didn’t show up for the presentation. And so I went into the teacher the next day, not asking for her to … I was really good. I was really asking her, can you bring her in on a one-to-one, let her do the presentation and tell her what she would have gotten? I wasn’t asking her to not give her a zero. And she said, No, she didn’t show up. She gets a zero. And I said, I understand that. But I’m asking you to kind of, throw her a bone. And I said, I said, she was in the bathroom with an anxiety…. She had an anxiety attack. And she said, Well, she didn’t, she didn’t tell anybody. And I said, well, because she’s anxiety, she’s horrified to let anyone know. And she said, Well, she doesn’t have a diagnosis, for anxiety, and I said, and I didn’t actually say this, because I didn’t want to drag her into my life. But I was like, that’s because I’ve been waiting on a waitlist to see a psychiatrist for six months. So I, like, again, it was that vicious notion of a vicious circle again. And just the idea of the empathy to say, I had a kid who’s struggling and she’s not a bad kid, she had an anxiety attack. Why don’t we bring her in and just show her that she’s capable of doing a great presentation or coaching her through it, versus these are the rules, the rules are zero. It was very, it was black or white, and I think, again, and as a parent, I mean, I was sitting there emotionally,  trying to not ask for a bending of the rules for my child, but having a bit of empathy and … AW: so next time she wouldn’t have that anxiety attack because she would know that she could do it! NG: Exactly. But even just knowing like, I’m capable of doing it right. And so again, it’s just the challenge of like, there is a lot more to that story than her just not showing up to do her presentation. AW: Right. NG: And so I think,  we can all we can all work better on that. And give people the benefit of that. AW: So is there anything else you want to add? Especially, I think in terms of parents talking to kids? NG: Yeah. I mean, I think our mission is really to help raise awareness around youth mental health to reduce the stigma, first and foremost. And the second is about creating uninhibited access to care. It’s really kind of breaking down the barriers so that families and their kids can get their  foot in the door. And so, I think coming back to what can all of us do is just be opening the conversation about mental health. When you see somebody acting differently or being off, it’s just to ask, how are they doing? Is everything okay? Right? And to let them know that you’re there for them. You don’t have to be a solution or, but just to know that you’ve got a support system, I think it’s so important. AW: That’s is almost identical to what I heard from the grief counselor, in terms of how to speak, how to support your friend who’s in mourning or who’s grieving – is you don’t have to provide solutions. You don’t have to provide answers. You just need to know that you’re there for them. NG: Exactly. Yeah. It’s amazing. Yeah. AW: Okay. This is a bit of a rude transition. But now, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions. I hope you can have fun with these. NG: Yeah. AW: Okay. The first question is, what are your pet peeves? NG: Leaving all the cupboard doors open! You walk in the kitchen and all the cupboard doors are open. I think I would go with like the front hall clutter. I can handle it if it’s out-of-sight-out-of-mind from that perspective. And I think committing to your word. So when people sort of say, Well,  I’m going to get together on Friday and then like never deliver on that and they keep rescheduling,… AW: okay, second question. What type of learner Are you visual, auditory kinesthetic, or maybe some other kind of learner? NG: Definitely visual. So I’m a visual, I would say experiential learner, I absorb content and information or just like, especially culturally, when you’re traveling somewhere just like sitting in a space and just really taking it all in. I think for me, I’m very much a visual learner, AW: and how does that affect your communication? NG: It’s interesting because I do a lot of virtual work. So I definitely prefer things like video conference and leveraging that as a form of  virtual meetings and online but more interactive. So work in progress. So rather than waiting for kind of a final result is really having iterative work in a collaborative way. AW: Next question, introvert or extrovert? NG: I was born an introvert, but I’ve been coached to be an extrovert. I would say I remember as a child being incredibly shy, standing almost behind my mother, at family parties and being very, very shy. I think over time just through work, cultural experiences. I’ve kind of I’ve pushed myself to be more extroverted. AW: Well, I’ve seen you on stage behind the podium talking about The Maddie Project, and you are phenomenal. NG: Yeah, when is it when it’s something you’re incredibly passionate about, it comes a lot easier, that’s for sure. I’ll say when you have to stand in front of really anybody to talk about something that is incredibly challenging, it takes a ton of courage and a ton of energy and vulnerability. AW: Right. NG: And so I think that has definitely taught me a lot about who I am, but also understanding that when you have big presentations, particularly around The Maddie Project, that you give yourself some downtime, after the fact. Because I’ve spoken with other parents that have are strong advocates for youth mental health, that have lost their kids, and the level of exhaustion kind of when you come through it. It’s amazing. AW: I can’t do imagine. That would be exhausting. Okay, communication preference for personal conversations? NG: So for me, in person is always the best, of course, otherwise it’s FaceTime. So I use FaceTime a lot a lot. I travel a fair amount, and so I’m not always here. And it’s interesting because even my youngest son won’t text or call, he’ll just FaceTime me. So doesn’t matter what time of day or what have you. It’s just something that is more of his thing. And so definitely… AW: maybe he’s like you and he’s visual as well. Right? NG: Maybe? Yeah, it could be. It could be that, it could be that. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? NG: So this one, I would say no. I would call myself a content junkie. I love podcasts, but I really focus on the topics and I have a kind of a broad range, but I actually love and I find myself spending a lot of time listening to podcasts about people talking about their life stories. AW: So autobiographies? NG: Autobiographies, or just famous people or business leaders that are sharing their journeys. And it’s amazing to really see the correlations of people sharing very challenging times in their lives, but they continue to progress and move forward. And so there’s no one podcast per se, but right now, podcasts are my medium of content. I used to run listening to music and now actually I run listening to podcasts. AW: Amazing. So how can listeners connect with you if they want to ask you about The Maddie Project or anything else? NG: Yeah, so we’re almost on every channel online. So things like Facebook, Instagram, AW: not surprising NG: Yeah. And so that’s the best way. We’re small and nimble. So we really try to respond where,  again, really community based. We’re trying to connect people with either resources, or other parents that are going through similar situations, but living true to our mission is that we’re just there. To be of whatever support and offer kind of a listening ear for those that might be struggling. AW: That’s great. Thank you so, so much Nicole, for sharing your story and your insights. I really appreciate it. And I know a lot of people do as well. NG: Yeah. Well, thanks for shining a light on us and on mental health. This has been great.   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]            TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker,  parent, partner and friend.”        TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that enriches our relationships and enhances our career success by providing us with knowledge, strategies and confidence.”     ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. The post #36 Talking YOUTH MENTAL HEALTH with Nicole German, founder of The Maddie Project appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Why is it so difficult to talk about money? Does your family have a budget? Do you have an updated will?  What about a power of attorney?  Listen and learn as experience strategist Kelly Harper shares strategies for talking to your partner, your parents, your children and your friends about money.  PODCAST: https://talkabouttalk.com/35-money References & Links  Kelly Harper LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelly-harper-7638104/ Recommendations: “Daring Greatly” by Brené Brown Colleen Dilanschneider “Know Your Own Bones” Money References Couples and finances https://www.thepennyhoarder.com/budgeting/budget-meeting/?aff_sub2=homepage https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/in-it-together/201807/the-top-4-stressors-couples-today%3famp https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/money-causes-the-most-stress-for-couples-according-to-new-ally-survey-2018-06-12 Talking to Children about Money https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/how-to-talk-to-your-kids-about-money https://www.google.ca/amp/s/childmind.org/article/talking-kids-money/amp/ Wills com co CANADA: https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-consumer-agency/services/estate-planning/resources-estate-law.html ONTARIO: https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/justice-ont/estate_planning.php US: https://www.state.gov/wills-trusts-and-estates/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Taboo Topics covered by Talk About Talk: Profanity (clean or explicit) Our health & how to talk to your doctor Mortality & supporting our grieving friends How to effectively provide negative feedback Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website: https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   Interview Transcript  Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us here today, Kelly. Kelly Harper: Thank you for having me.   AW: Let’s start with – why is money taboo? KH: So I’m a baby boomer. And if you think about our parents and their generation, there were things you didn’t talk about. My mom would say you didn’t air your dirty laundry in public. And I think money was one of those things, it was kept very private. And so if you’re brought up in a house where money is private, parents aren’t even talking to their kids about that. Now, what’s interesting now is we have this whole shift almost everything we do is public with social media. But that seems to be one of the last things that shifting, and I think it’s doing a lot of harm, because we’re not talking about something that’s really, really important. AW: So as you were describing this, I was thinking she’s right, because things like mental health used to be taboo. And now we’re talking about it, right? KH: right. AW: Things like death. There are books being written explicitly talking about our mortality, and end of life and how we grieve KH: I think Money …and financial literacy and financial education is going to need a bit of a movement where we can feel comfortable talking about it. The mental health example is a great example. AW: Right? So is it because money is kept in our private bank accounts and in our wallets, it’s concealed. So there’s that part of it, there’s the fact that our bank accounts are not on display, the outcome of having money may be on display in terms of where we live, what we drive, how we dress, I’m still not sure the why it’s taboo. KH: It is on display more than it used to be. Whereas in the 50s, and 60s, everything was a little cookie cutter, you didn’t kind of know what was happening behind closed doors. And I think part of it is we’re all looking for validation, and how money has become this symbol of success is maybe one of those pieces of validation that we don’t want to talk about. Because how I value money or success or define that might be differently than how you define that. And so I don’t necessarily want to get into that conversation because I don’t want to be left feeling that I don’t measure up. Or the opposite, I may not want to make someone else uncomfortable because they don’t feel that they measure up. So it cuts both ways, whether you don’t have enough, or you have more than your friends, it becomes sort of a hard bridge to cross. AW: very well put. And I think that you just provided us with so many directions that we could go in, but first, I kind of want to close the loop on the taboo topic. You and I were at a conference recently, an Ensemble conference, where they were talking about the future of wealth and a lot to do with money – and you shared with the audience some research about conversations between parents and kids. Can you talk about that? KH: We did a number of years ago – I was leading financial literacy strategy at BMO Financial Group, and we did a study on financial literacy and education specifically around what we’re you’re talking to your kids about, and 64% of parents who would they would rather talk about Kids about sex than money. It’s like, wow, have things changed, right? That that’s a staggering statistic. And that we also found out that only 47% of Canadians have a budget. I’ve learned that it has nothing to do with gender. It has nothing to do with education. There is a values component to this. I’m convinced you’re either born with a spender or a saver gene. And you can argue nature or nurture – but there’s something about the environment you grew up. A lot of researchers talk about what is that first memory of money that you have. But these are conversations that parents aren’t comfortable having, and I think a lot of it stems from –  if you are not confident, you are not going to want to have that conversation. So if you’ve made mistakes, or if you’re still struggling, you really don’t want to expose that to your kids. You don’t want to you know, be vulnerable to your children… I thought about this a lot. Also, I’m a big fan of Brené Brown, and it’s like when we’re vulnerable. We see sharing our vulnerability of shame. So we need to overcome that fear and start having that conversation. AW: So you said there that 64%, or roughly two thirds of parents would rather talk to their children about sex, which is perhaps one of the more ultimate taboo topics than about money, which is fascinating and frightening. KH: They’re thinking, well, they’re going to get that in school. It’s not part of core curriculum. And to be honest, financial services organizations need to do more. When you see ads for companies like cash money to a young teenager who’s like, Oh, I just need 100 bucks till payday. It’s the worst trap they can fall into because they don’t understand compound interest and what happens when you miss a payment. I always believe it’s a shared accountability between parents, families, educators and financial service institutions to help drive this conversation and create good habits and confidence. AW: So let’s start diving into then the various stakeholders that you just listed there and let’s start first with talking to our kids about money. How can we prepare our kids to be financially responsible? KH: So I think the first thing to do is not assume that it’s too late to start, or I can’t talk about this when my kids are young. So there are different lessons, you teach your kids all the time that are age appropriate. So I’m not talking about explaining compound interest to a five year old, that doesn’t understand fractions. What I am talking about is having conversations that are in the moment. So if you’re grocery shopping, and your kid says, Can we stop at McDonald’s for dinner on the way home? It’s like, well, we could but we’re at the grocery store. And so instead of spending $25, for a family of four to have dinner at McDonald’s, we could buy a whole chicken and we could buy some vegetables for salad and we could eat for probably a couple of meals. Maybe we pick a special dessert to go with dinner instead of the Happy Meal or whatever you’re going to have at McDonald’s. You need to stop Having those trade off conversations early, because at the end of the day, this is about needs and wants. And this is about really understanding, I think some of the trade-offs that we all need to make. I’ve heard stories about kids that went off to university and they’re living in an apartment eventually not outside of a dorm where they don’t have a cafeteria necessarily to eat at and they have to stock their own fridge and they actually don’t know how to grocery shop, because that was always looked after for them. AW: So right. I appreciate that implicit advice even about bringing your kids shopping with you, right. One thing that I’ve done just recently, I started to show my kids on the labels where they have the price per kilogram, the really small writing in there. And so now they think it’s really cool to go in and compare with cereal, for example. KH: I think a lot of the teenagers think that there’s a grocery fairy that just puts the groceries in the cupboard. They just show up. AW: And one of the things that you mentioned there was distinguishing for children between needs and wants. How do you work conversations about that with your children, and when is a good time to start doing that? KH: So I think again, it comes back to what’s age appropriate. So as your kids are getting older and you’re thinking about trade-offs, do you need a new pair of jeans? Or do you want a new pair of jeans and then having that conversation? So why do you want these? Why don’t you like the ones that you have? And maybe you’ll find out in that conversations like, well, I’m getting teased at school because I’m wearing Walmart brand, and all the kids are wearing something else. I don’t even know what fancy jeans are anymore. AW: it changes – it changes all the time. KH: So then have that conversation, but it’s like, okay, so there’s nothing wrong with the pair of jeans that you have, but you want another pair of shoes. So let’s talk about that. And then let’s talk about the trade off, but you also want x, y and z. So which do you want more? And this is our budget for this and how do you have that consultation budget, giving them a budget? And I think what’s interesting as we talked to different stakeholder groups, and as we did research, I said, I find that this isn’t about gender, education, or even how much families make. But I think the conversations actually are harder when families aren’t struggling to make ends meet. Because when you’re struggling to make ends meet, it can be a very honest conversation. It’s like no, I can’t buy new jeans right now because we have to pay the heating bill or the hydro bill. But when you’re not struggling, it’s harder to have that conversation because you yourself are not making those trade-offs. And I think as parents, we want so much for the kids in our lives that we want to be able to give them that and when we can, it’s hard to pull back and not do that without having a conversation about why you might still buy the new jeans. But at least you’ve had a different conversation getting to the new gene, right? AW: So that means we’re not going to order sushi tonight. KH: We’re not having sushi tonight. Or if you could be watching a TV show or a movie where someone is making a choice and say, Hey, what did you think about that? And then just build that into the conversation. Especially with kids. You don’t want this to be heavy. You want this like Oh, Mom, you don’t want the roll of the eyes. And I know I’ve talked a lot, but I just wanted to touch on I went to some research a number of years ago and it talked about the power for children to know they’re being invested in and so and what they commit to school. And so if you’re saving for your kids’ education, and RRSPs, tell them, because they will know that they’re being invested in. Hiding that as a big surprise. “Surprise! We have money for school for you!” is actually not helping. It’s a signal as a parent, you’re investing in your kids. So tell them we’re going to be okay. AW: I think that is absolutely brilliant advice. And I definitely hadn’t heard it before. I hadn’t thought of it. KH: Yeah. Again, back to the whole point that talking money is talking taboo. Why would I talk to my kids about the RRSPs that I have? Right? It was a wow moment for me when I heard it. AW: Yes. And the other sort of positive externality that’s coming out of that is you are explicitly telling your children that you are investing in them.  So related to the topic of taxes, then, let’s move on to beneficiaries and wills. And we’ve all heard the horror stories of people who have a relative who dies in a car accident. Suddenly, and there’s absolutely no will whatsoever or even if there is one, it hasn’t been discussed. Maybe you can share some nightmare stories with us, they will scare people into talking about it? KH:  So the first lesson that I’ve taken away rather recently (I am an executive in the state right now, an estate that I wasn’t expecting to be an executor of.) This is part of being an adult, having a will. Some people think, well, I don’t own a home, I don’t need a will, or I own a home, but I don’t have kids. So I don’t need a will. You need a will. This is part of the adult thing. What a will does, it is a way of telling your family what you want, when you’re not there to speak for yourself. And it could be as small a thing as where you want to be laid to rest. It could be you know, when my nephew was really, really young, and you always look at this book, and we would share this book together. It’s making sure that that person gets that memento. So it’s not even about money, per se thinking about how you want to be remembered how you want that memory to be preserved with the people that love you, they’re really hard conversations to have. My first piece of advice would be to start small. So just it’s almost like having the money conversation and relationships that will talk about start small and kind of know your audience. So you have to have a written will. Okay, there are all kinds of sites online to do wills. We actually just I just heard of a fabulous one called willful recently. There’s all kinds of legal documents that you can get at Staples or online, there are two forms of will in Ontario I can I can’t speak to other provinces, a handwritten will completely handwritten in your own script and signed by you will serve as a valid will in Ontario. And I’ve had that experience with a cousin that had died. A printed-out will that’s not signed or not was witnessed is not going to be valid. So if you use a tool or if you use some sort of template, you need to print it, you need to sign it and it needs to be witnessed by two adults that do not benefit from the will. AW: Otherwise it’s kind of a conflict of interest. KH: Right. They can’t benefit from it.  But this can be very simple and very straightforward. You could do it in word or if you have very simple, you know, wishes or very straightforward estate this is another word estate. People think estate is, you know, a sprawling acreage home. And the estate is everything you own. The government will take its share –  so unless you have those documents, the government takes … it can’t be probated, and they start taking a chunk of everything. AW: So what I’m hearing then is that when you have a will, that you’re really doing yourself a favor because you’re ensuring that your legacy is what you want it to be. There’s also the benefit though to everybody else that’s involved – the family and close friends of you when you’re gone. KH: There’s so many emotions, there’s so many difficult things happening. Are there children involved? I mean, there’s an emotional loss . And so the more that you can think of, and write down and share your wishes, … The last thing that your loved ones have to think about doing are those things and they can be, as I said, they can be small or big things. And so it is the gift that you give to those that you love – having a will. AW: I think you’ve convinced me. KH: And so a number of years ago, I had a good friend of mine come to me and say, my wife, and I are updating our will. And they have three kids, and they said, If something happens to us, we’d like you to take care of the kids. And I was like, really? Since it can be awfully crowded in my one bedroom apartment. And he’s like, No, no, the money comes to the kids. I’m like, okay, and I said, I’ll do it on one condition: that you tell your family that that’s what you’re doing a decision like that, that is so important. Even if you’ve written it down. Again, it’s emotional. Well, why isn’t it me? Why isn’t it them? Why is it you know, someone outside the family? So that was my one stipulation. And you know, they’re happy and healthy and their kids are wonderful. It was it was a difficult conversation, I know, for them to have and it was a difficult conversation for them to have with their family. But that was really important to them. And then as you start getting into parents that are divorced and you know, second families.  It becomes more and more complicated. AW: And probably therefore then more and more important. KH: Yes, right. Exactly. AW: I like your advice about making sure that all of the potential involved are communicated with in advance? KH: There is no more formal reading of the will…  you know:  we’re all going to get together in the lawyers office and we’re going to read the will … what do you mean that happened? It rarely happens like that anymore. But there’s still could be a real surprise for some people that could again, create tension and anxiety in a period that’s so emotionally difficult already. And it’s easy to say, Well, I won’t be there to manage it. But that’s a copy of it … AW: That’s a cop out! KH: If you love your family, it’s a gift. AW: Let’s move to another stakeholder than and specifically talking to your partner. So it could be who pays the monthly bills, who does the investing, what is disclosed, should we have separate accounts or joint accounts, who has access,… but then also longer term planning. I’m sure you’ve heard horror stories. KH: Financial stress is one of the number one stressors. Seven out of 10 couples will say it’s their biggest stressor in their relationship. AW: So 70%? KH:  70% say it’s a significant tension in their relationship. It’s still I think, often cited as one of the number one reasons for divorce. And again, it might not be the ultimate reason, but it creates other tension and other stress. And it’s often about back we talked earlier, the different values and how you manage money. And so I think when you think about having that conversation, it’s like what we talked about with kids, you’re not going to have a complicated mortgage conversation with a five year old. You’re not necessarily on a third date going to jump into some of these topics that for some people are kind of heavy conversations to have as the relationship develops and matures. Can we deepen that conversation? So early days, you know, you can start looking for cues, does your new partner want to go out all the time, and not stay at home? Or going to lavish restaurants? What’s their tipping behavior? So start having conversations about, well, what vacations do you like to take? How do you like to spend your time and that’ll sort of gauge and again, they’re awkward conversation. So you kind of you kind of wade into it like a pool, you don’t dive into the deep end, right? AW: If you’re on like a second or third date, and you’re not sure – you want to ask them about their financial expectations. It’s kind of the same. You hear about couples hinting that … “so do you want to have kids someday?”, right? KH: Yes, exactly. Going humming along, like everything’s great. And then later, well, let’s buy a house. And it’s the first time we’re at the bank and our credit scores are on the table exposed in front of us. It’s like, honey, you didn’t tell me about that credit card, or I didn’t know that that happened. And it’s bad. It’s back to the shame and the vulnerability of maybe we’ve made mistakes. AW: Is there a list of conflict triggers? specific, financially related topics that couples may disagree on, so there could be the extent to which you’re comfortable with debt or that you are in Debt right then there’s your relative affluence. What are some other things that couples may get into arguments about? KH: Part of it is just your outlook on saving and planning. A lot of Canadians don’t plan. And this is why retirement planning is so hard because one it’s if you’re in your 30s or 40s, or if it’s like it’s so far away, so many people that you know, are entrepreneurs or they started a second career later in life and they’re moving towards something different that this notion of retirement is even changing to think about planning and visioning. Well, what do you want? Like what do you want our life to be in five years to do? AW: Never mind 20 years? KH: Never mind 20 years – like do we want to go on vacation next year? Okay, so there are two ways to pay for that. We can save or you know, we’re just going to put it on our credit card and kind of run the numbers when you see the numbers on paper. They don’t lie. There was a great Sex in the City episode where Carrie was trying to buy a condo and she realized that she had $40,000 worth of shoes in her closet and that was a down payment on a condo! AW:  That perfectly relates to the next question that I was just thinking that I was going to ask. We’ve heard of this high-low thing. And I think it was Sharon Stone who went to the Academy Awards wearing an Armani suit with a Gap t shirt. KH: Yeah, yes. AW: And it was the high low. People often have something that they love to indulge in. I know people that aren’t particularly affluent, but who will spend a lot of money on wine, they’ll have a wine cellar in the basement. And that’s just their thing. I can imagine that particular thing that people spend their money on could cause conflict in relationships, right, especially if it’s not shared, if it’s not a shared passion. KH: And so I think it comes back to – we tend to have long term relationships with people that we share values with, and money and how you manage money really is one of those values. I believe very much in Yours, Mine and Ours, and it’s like that’s your money and you can spend your money however you want. We have our bucket for our shared goals. And then I know have mine as well talk to me about how that work. Almost every bank today makes it easy. We all do online banking; it’s probably cost virtually nothing to set up. So set up a system. So use the tools that are out there. It’s amazing when you even start tracking your expenses. And I know I’m jumping around here, but some people don’t even know where they spend their money. And because we’re in a plastic society, and debit is so peripheral and Apple Pay. We don’t even have a sense of how much money we’re spending. And at the end of the month, you see where you spent your mistake. Wow, I did not realize that’s where all my money went. AW: So that’s kind of what I was saying at the very beginning. Part of the reason that money may be taboo, and maybe it’s actually becoming more taboo, because it’s becoming even more invisible. We don’t have the paper and the coins in our wallet anymore necessarily. KH: Just track your spending, go to your credit card at the end of the month, and oh, Amazon, audible. What are all these Apple pays, you’ll be surprised where all the money’s going. AW: I agree with your point, though about it becoming on one hand, maybe easier to track because of all these apps but your point was, it’s also more difficult to track when I look at my visa bill at the end of the month, a big part of it is Amazon but they don’t actually say what it is KH: Right! AW:  And I’m just oh my gosh! I don’t know if it’s groceries and some of its clothing some of its household stuff. There’s no distinguishing it there. KH: So this is why I’m happy we still have an LCBO because it says LCBO on the credit card. And it’s not mixed in with my grocery. AW:  That’s funny! What about with our parents? (and I think the big one here is wills.) We want to make sure that their wishes in fact become a reality, right?  Should we broach that? How do we broach that? KH: It is still for your parents about protecting what they’ve built, as well as giving you some peace of mind. But there are three things that are really important. There needs to be a will they need to have a power of attorney. So a power of attorney for personal and a power of attorney for medical decisions. Okay. The power of attorney for medical decisions is if your parent or parents one on one Both of them are incapacitated and can’t make medical decisions that you decide who will make medical decisions for them. Again, these are emotional conversations, but generally that you only have to have at once. So sit down after dinner and say, you know, let’s carve out some time when we talk about a couple of these things. And your parents might have it, you don’t even know that they have it. And all you need to say is great. When was the last time you looked at it? Are you still really comfortable with it, and that’s great. You don’t necessarily need to know the details. The medical one kind of helps because especially you think about blended families. So the second one, the power of attorney for personal care is if your mom can’t sign her signature anymore, or they have some what a lot of spouses do today, which helps with that as they have joint bank accounts. So they also think your parents might think well, everything we have is joint and Everything I have is going to your mother and everything your mother has is going to me, so we don’t need these things. Well, it’s fine when the first one goes when the second one goes, you still need those things. So even if you never need the power of attorney it helps to have on because it becomes very hard later, if there’s any change to get one of those things done, and they’re super easy to do, they don’t cost any money to do. AW:  So be proactive, again, proactive? KH: you can find these forums online and just go in and have that conversation and then the will with your parents. Again, it’s the same thing for them. What’s more important is how do you minimize tax that the estate may have to pay? And you just want to know that your parents are setup and if they don’t want to talk about the details. AW:  What if they don’t want to talk about the details? KH:  I think you have to be honest first with yourself about why do you want to know the details like I want to know so that I don’t need to worry about it. I won’t be stressed about it, because I’m going to be stressed about enough or be that I’m confident that we haven’t missed anything and see just because so I can plan as well. Just like as we talked about having a having a will it’s like a gift to your families, the same with your parents. It just gives everyone some peace of mind and then also know what’s kind of coming down the road so that arguments will come up, you’ll be able to focus on the memorializing and the great memories you have. They’re actually now mobile notary services. It’s a great idea. I wish there was a notary that they’ll come to your house. So bring your Little staff don’t meet you at Starbucks. So again, it doesn’t have to be difficult to do. You don’t need a lawyer to do it. AW:  Okay, so we’ve now covered talking to our children, talking to our partners and now talking to our parents. So the next stakeholder that I’d love to cover is when we’re talking to friends about money, particularly when our friends’ relative affluence differs from ours. And I know you have some interesting perspectives. KH: Oh, that’s that one’s really hard. I think I talked about Brené Brown. And when we share our vulnerability, it feels like shame to us, but others see it as courage. It’s really hard to tell your friends that you can’t afford to do something when for them. It’s easy to do. And my experience is that most people at some point or another had been through something similar in life positions, like hey, do you remember when you were in college and we couldn’t all go out and so we would stay home and just have a really fun house party because it was too expensive to go out. Things are a little tight like to think we could do that next time. And I’m happy to host at my place instead of going out for dinner …and have that conversation, because it’s hard, so bringing it up to your friends is really, really hard. But I think if you’re there, your friends are going to understand. And I think having that conversation is really important when you’re talking to your kids as well. Sometimes they don’t want to admit that they can’t do things with that their friends are doing. And so if you can sort of role model that behavior and sort of share that, it’s back to just we have to, like lift the lid off all this taboo, but I really do believe that if your friends or your friends are going to understand and they may also say, Wow, we didn’t know! Don’t worry about it. It’s okay. AW:  What about the other way around? What if your friends wins the lottery, like oh my god, I’m so jealous that happened to them. Or now you have all the money and your friends don’t have the money. KH: If you’re the other way around. I think you need to be sensitive that not everyone may have the cash flow that you do that you do, right, and kind of be sensitive and again, look for cues, but even that’s hard sometimes because we’re all keeping up with the Joneses. Right? AW:  it seems like common sense. But to be honest, I’ve seen people be incredibly insensitive. And they’re otherwise caring people, but they forget. Everything’s relative, right? KH: And we become a victim to our lifestyle, and we make assumptions about how other people live. That’s where gratitude comes in and being fortunate for what you have. AW:  nicely put. Okay, now I’m going to move on to the five rapid fire questions that I ask every guest. So you ready? KH: I’m ready. AW:  First question, what are your pet peeves? KH: People that don’t say thank you. It can be a thank you wave when I’m driving. Or if I hold the door open if someone doesn’t say thank you. Basic manners. AW:  manners? KH: manners. AW:  Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you? KH: I’m a visual learner. I like storytelling. I like to be able to see something and I still write a lot of things down because it’s the act of writing it and seeing it that helps me remember it. So I think that falls into visual learning. AW:  Visual, and also if you’re writing it, sometimes can be kinesthetic, too. KH: Yes. AW:  Number three, introvert or extrovert. KH: So I’m an extrovert. But I actually sit in the middle. AW:  I think most people do. KH: And there is a spectrum and you’re not one or extreme. You’re just in the middle. And so I am fine. You know, networking, going out and meeting new people, but then sometimes I just like to stay at home. AW:  Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations? KH:  I love text now, because I’ve never been a chatty, chatty on the phone – for a long time. AW:  Last question, is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? KH: Brené Brown. I actually have a tattoo that says daring greatly. AW:  Wow. And that was from her Daring Greatly book – when I turned 50. I wanted to make some changes in my life. And I chose to take that on as a mantra and all kinds of things changed my life, all for the positive. It’s been really amazing. For work. There’s a researcher, her name is Colleen Dilanschneider, and she has a company called know your own bones. She does this great research on why people go to attractions and museums, simple things like that. And it’s very cool. AW:  Okay, yeah, I’ll put links to those in the show notes. KH: Thank you. AW:  Any last advice? We’re talking about money and relationships and communicating about money? Is there anything else you want to add?  KH: I would just add, don’t think that you’re the only one. I think if we find ourselves stuck or, or we’re afraid to start the conversation, there are probably others in the room or others in your circle of friends or family that feel the same way. And so take a bit of a leap of faith. It’s work, you know, adulting is hard. AW:  Adulting is hard. KH: Adulting is hard. You know, when we were teenagers in our 20s, like, Oh, it looks so easy. It’s like, this is hard. It’s hard work. Relationships are hard work. Work is hard. You know, managing all these things. Money is hard. AW:  Money is hard. Thank you very, very much for your time, Kelly. 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Lessons from the Improv comedy stage can help us improve our communication skills! Comedians Sandy Marshall and Sandy Jobin-Bevans share their expertise – and a few laughs – including playing the scene you’re in, the beauty of mistakes, knowing your audience, testing your audience, “YES-AND,” burning a suggestion, and more! Whether you’re pitching for business, interviewing for a new job, or talking to your kids, these improv lessons can make you a more effective communicator. Thank you Sandy & Sandy!   References & Links Sandy Jobin-Bevans Twitter: https://twitter.com/SandyJBevans Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sandyjbevans/ Sandy Marshall Twitter: https://twitter.com/MarshallSandy Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marshallsandy/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandymarshall/ Other References Norman Howard (their firm) – https://www.normanhowardco.com/ Second City – https://www.secondcity.com/ Essentialism by Greg McCowan (book) – https://amzn.to/33oZTTT Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Free Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website: https://talkabouttalk.com Ep.22: FUNNY TALK with comedian & professor Hillary Anger Elfenbein – https://talkabouttalk.com/22s2-funny-talk-with-stand-up-comedian-business-school-professor-hillary-anger-elfenbein/ Ep28: CHANGE MANAGEMENT with professor & author Ellen Auster – https://talkabouttalk.com/28-communicating-change-with-ellen-auster/ Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   Interview Transcript Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Sandy and Sandy, thank you so much for joining us here today. Sandy Jobin-Bevans: Well, thanks for having us. Sandy Marshall: Thank you, Andrea. It’s good to be here. AW: Let’s start off for people that maybe don’t have context. And can I ask you, Sandy Marshall to describe what is improv comedy? SM: Improv comedy? I’m going to start and answer. And then I want to hear what Sandy says. I would say improv comedy, at its core, is about listening and thinking on your feet. Improvisation is an art form. It’s been around for quite some time in comedy. Improvisation really is thinking on your feet and being agile and building on what someone else is saying. SJ-B: Yeah, I think that’s a good distinction. It doesn’t have to necessarily be comedic to be effective. You’d be an improviser that’s using improv techniques and not have to be funny. Our background is in the comedy side of it. AW: So if I was to go to an improv comedy show, can you share with the listeners just how that would unfold? SM: Sure. Yeah, I probably would have a host who would come out on stage Welcome, everybody. Hopefully that person would not say “How’s everybody doing tonight?” Cuz they might actually be truthful. SJ-B: Okay, yeah, Bill Hicks used to say as a stand up comic, he used to say that when you say How’s everybody doing tonight, you just wasted three seconds of your time on stage. So don’t –  just assume everyone’s okay. AW: So actually, when I was learning to do podcast interviews, someone said, Don’t ever ask people on mic how they are. And I’ve noticed since then very few interviewers on the radio – you rarely hear them say, how are you? But every now and then you hear an inexperienced person say, How are ya? SJ-B: Nooooo- it’s an unnecessary moment. SM: That’s right. Yeah. So the host would come out, SJ-B: back to the back of the show. AW: awkward silence! SJ-B: That’s right. Yeah. SM: So if you’re seeing an improv show, it may consist of, you know, a series of improvised scenes or monologues or songs with an ensemble of somewhere between three and six or seven people on a stage. Sometimes the scenes themselves are much longer, some are shorter. There are distinctions in improvisation between long form and short form. So get to the joke quicker, you know, beginning middle and end. In some cases, there’s a long form, it’s a little more like jazz, it might be a longer scene. Really the show consists of a group of people making everything up on the spot based on a suggestion from the audience. SJ-B: Yeah. And when the show goes well, people often watch it and say, that had to be planned, because it was so good, it had to be planned. And when the show goes bad, they never want to see a comedy show again. So the best thing I think that can happen to you is that you can have, say you had six scenes in a night, five are great and one’s terrible. So they realize that they couldn’t have planned all that because you wouldn’t want that terrible scene. Yeah, it’s very true if it’s too good, and sometimes it’s detrimental. So it’s a strange thing, AW: because then people think it’s ,,, SJ-B: Oh, it’s planned. It has to be planned. There’s no way you guys just thought of that in your on your own. Yeah. AW: I think that fact about something being too consistently good, affects a lot of contexts. It just reminded me when people write a recommendation online, for example, there’s research that shows that if they’re glowingly positive and they refuse to say anything negative about it, then people discard it. And they say it’s not credible. If you just have to say one little thing and it’s kind of like: five out of six, awesome improv skits? That was real. SJ-B: Right, right. You were talking about a resort and you’re like the beach was amazing. The food was amazing. But there were not enough towels. Yeah, I believe it. AW: Yeah. So when you first described or defined improv comedy, the first word that came out of your mouth actually made me very happy. It was listening. People have asked me, What do you think is the number one most critical communication skill? and if I had to choose, it would be listening. So hopefully we can we can build on that a little bit, when we get into the section where we talk about improv skills. As you were also defining improv, I was wondering, are the three to six people on the stage – are they competing? Are you competing with the other comedians? SJ-B: Well, the whole idea of becoming an improviser is that you wouldn’t be competing because we always talk about we’ve got your back or a we always talk about being others-focused as well. So if you’re making other people look good, that’s a huge skill we have as improvisers I think if you’re competing, it’s a good idea to go be a stand up. And I think that’s definitely a different atmosphere. Certainly there are people who become pretty competitive on stage, but then the end up just doing lots of scenes alone. SM: It’s very true. Yeah. SJ-B: It shouldn’t be like that. The great shows are when everybody’s there to look out for the other people that are on stage. AW: Well, it sounds like fun actually. SJ-B: It is. It is very fun. That takes time to become a very good improviser. But it doesn’t take much time to go to an improv class and just start. People have a blast doing it. And you know, we teach a lot of corporate improvisation and teach improv skills to a lot of big companies. And that’s the first thing – they’re very trepidatious and then they realize, oh, we’re laughing we’re having a good time. AW: So did you take classes on improv? SJ-B: Personally, I was in Winnipeg, and I was studying to be a high school history teacher. A friend of mine was saying, well, we have an improv and sketch troupe and one guy can’t make it could you improvise in the show tonight? I had never improvised my entire life and taken a class never done it – never. And he’s like, you seem pretty funny. And I did in front of a paying crowd of like 300 people and that was my first time ever improvising, and I didn’t take a class until six or seven years later. When I got to Second City, they were like: you should take class. Please just to learn the terms we use. AW: You didn’t know the vocabulary? SJ-B: No, not at all. So I was like, okay, AW: so what is some of the vocabulary? SM: I’d say like a core tenet is the phrase YES AND. So, using the word yes to build on an idea that somebody else is offering something. You might say it’s his initiation, or an offering and an improv scene, you know, things like callbacks or edits or support. There’s a thing that every improviser does before a show and they’ll say got your back. So before the group goes on stage. Everybody’s backstage getting ready to go on with a lot of confidence, a lot of energy. Just a quick moment where everybody, one-on-one says, got your back, got your back, got your back and something we don’t really see in everyday life as well. As Sandy said, we work with businesses or groups, you can tell pretty quickly if a group does have each other’s back or doesn’t. But in the improv world, when you’re doing a show, ideally, you’re going out and you’re really focusing on how can you best listen, work with your fellow improvisers and get each other’s back, and then have fun along the way. Because if you’re not having fun, the audience definitely is not going to be having fun. SJ-B: No, and they’re the first ones to notice when things are going wrong. The audience knows something’s wrong … The other thing is offers. Offers are things that you’d make a suggestion in a scene. So an offer should be accepted. The YES AND  side of it is: yes is I heard your offer,  I use your offer and then and is I build on that offer. Offers are a big terminology. AW: So you don’t literally say the word offer on stage? SJ-B: No. That’s just what we call it. I made an offer and you didn’t accept it or I made an offer. It was great that you accepted it would be something you talk about after the show. The thing about coming from out West was we had all these other terms like pimping. So pimping is when you say to somebody, okay, now you’re going to sing a song – so you make somebody else do the thing you don’t want to do. And in Winnipeg we used to call it shivving each other like a jailhouse term. You got shivved. Thanks for shivving me in the back with that. AW: So in the shownotes, and I’m gonna have to have a list of the vocabulary terms that we’re learning. I just have to say, there’s been now probably at least three times in just in the last couple minutes, where you guys have said things where I’m like, wouldn’t it be nice if we acted like that at work and wouldn’t it be nice if that was the kind of camaraderie that we had before we went into a big brainstorming meeting, or we went into even a board meeting? SJ-B:  yeah, it’s more like don’t screw this up, John, Rather than, I’ve got your back. AW: It’s like, it may be the competition thing, right versus the we’re in this together. SJ-B: When we teach improvisational skills to people that are generally in business, they tend to pick up things and go, Okay, let’s make it easier for each other. When we do like pair exercises. Salespeople tend to go, “I tried to make it hard for Steve and Steve figured it out. But I just kept making it hard for him!” It is very competitive. They’re trying to make it too… They’re trying to mess each other up. They’re often trying to find: how do I win this particular exercise? When you’re not really supposed to win them, but they do look for it. They look for the way to win an improv exercise. AW: Like I’m the funniest and you look like an idiot. SJ-B: Yeah, I just make you look bad. They have the opposite idea of how improv works. SM: A lot of that comes from fear as well. I think too, right? So if in the boardroom or onstage people aren’t naturally supportive, there’s always something else going on. Improv can be a real metaphor towards where somebody is on the day. And early on in improv classes, one of the things we do teach students is that this is a safe space to be confident to take chances. And in life, we don’t always hear that, especially in the business world. If you’re new to a company and you’re getting on board and you might hear, we really want you to take chances and help you know, those thinking new ideas and may not be a company that walks the walk with that, right? Somebody might confidently share some ideas and quickly get shut down, right? So you really have to walk with that. And as you’re trying to be an improviser, one of the first skills you need to really develop is confidence and being confident to speak in public, confident to take chances in front of total strangers in an audience of people that have paid money to be there. So in that scenario, you really can only rely on the support of your fellow improvisers to get your back and that helps continue to breed more confidence. But when you’re seeing that competition or people pimping each other – in some cases, it’s just kind of in good fun. Because everybody’s been doing this a long time. It’s kind of a fun way to mess with each other. In most cases, it can be about fear or lack of confidence or something. AW: Yes, and I’m sure when that kind of stuff happens on stage, there’s reciprocity right away. SM: Yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. In some cases, like in the in the business world. If you hear people get shut down in meetings, something I often think of it, it’s okay, whatever, you’ll be okay, where you don’t take it personally or more like, you’ll be okay, yeah. SJ-B: I want to say one thing though, I’ve actually taught an improv class at a company. So what we try to do when we’re teaching these improvisational skills to businesses is – you can’t have anybody in the room that’s not in the workshop. So you can have someone standing on the side with a clipboard, or like they –  they tried to do it, they often try to do sit on the sides. AW: They’re curious? SJ-B: I want to watch all these people actually in this scenario, and then sort of started analyzing how these people are in our company. So that’s not a very comfortable way to jump into an improv thing. And I actually had a client a couple years ago who I said, look, nobody can just be standing on the side. They have to be involved. I know you’re probably gonna make judgments, these people are going to still make judgments. They’re gonna be involved and be there. And he said, Oh, yeah, no problem, no problem. He showed up the workshop and walked up, shook my hand said, “nothing I could do. These four are going to watch.” So he ambushed me. Totally changed the tone of the room, because there’s now 20 people going, am I gonna keep my job because I made a bad offer as an improviser? So they do try to sneak in.  I even had a scenario where I was teaching, the guy got fired. He got fired because his offers. They didn’t like them. And the person in the class was secretly grading people basically, and just said they would come in. And it was like Ted’s not here anymore. AW: Wow. SJ-B: Yeah. AW: Wow. So basically what was happening there was their objective was completely different from what you thought the objective was.  You thought it was improvisational skills. SM:  Yeah. AW: That they could then translate into real life and real work. And they were: let’s put them in this awkward situation and see who thinks and who swims. SJ-B: That’s exactly what they’re doing. And they just thought like, Ted’s had enough warnings. He’s gone. So that was really weird and shocking, because now everyone the next day, second day was like on edge because he’s not there anymore. AW: Is this Survivor? SJ-B: Exactly. So that’s the completely wrong attitude to have when you’re bringing improvisers in to teach communication skills or storytelling or things like innovation. It’s like, you know, someone didn’t innovate properly. They’re fired. That’s not the right message for sure. AW: Or they didn’t brainstorm properly. You know, they say there are no bad ideas. Well, actually, there are bad ideas. SJ-B: Yeah, there’s that one idea Ted brought. SM: The funny thing about building on the one idea. Funny thing about that is, oftentimes that idea is the germ for the solution everybody was looking for, but they just didn’t see it in that context on that day. And improvisers going through training programs will often say, I didn’t get a lot of stage time. Yeah, you know, and you’re like, that’s okay. Like, not everybody gets us. There’s nobody gets the equal amount of stage time you go to an improv show. Back to your earlier question. You won’t see everybody play equal number of crazy characters every night. You’ll see some people surprisingly, play a lead a lot. And some people play support, just because that’s a natural evolution of those scenes. I can remember there was one audition way back in the day, where there were a couple of people who quickly took center stage. And I was like, Well, I guess I’m just going to sweep the floor. And I ended up getting the gig because I was just the sweep the floor guy in the background and wasn’t trying to compete, but it was… AW: Were you literally sweeping the floor? SM:  With a with a mimed broom. Mimed. But I gotta say it. I gotta say the mimed broom: that gets to object work. That’s more terminology. You’re asking me about what that would be called object work They’re objects that don’t exist. AW:  So that was gutsy though! SM: Yeah. SJ-B: Yeah. But you stood out by taking a backseat. SM: Yeah. AW: But you were also demonstrating that you are engaged. I love how this is going back and forth between what is only appropriate on the improv stage, then what is only really appropriate in the boardroom and understanding about the kind of implicit or tacit communication that’s going on amongst employees, right? So you need to know your audience. SJ-B: You do really need to know your audience, which is a big part of what we’re instructing, when you’re talking improvisers for sure. And it’s like, that’s the skill that people learn when they’re doing storytelling or presentation skills. Knowing your audience is so much different, right. AW: So there’s knowing them in advance. SJ-B: Yeah AW: Being prepared, right? And then there’s also getting to know as you’re performing? SJ-B: Absolutely, you can test an audience as you’re doing it. There’s some simple ways to test an audience. While you’re doing it. Swear once. See how that goes. Maybe do something like, maybe something that pushes the sexual envelope. See how that goes. Try certain things to do. AW: So go through the taboos one by one? SJ-B: Oh yeah, you just like you can filter through like four or five pretty quickly in the show. Now you can see where the audience is and where they want to go, where they don’t want to go. Because if it’s a random theater crowd, you don’t know they are until they arrive. AW: I was watching some standup on the weekend. I think it was Kevin Hart. And he said, you know, the thing about going on stage is: everybody there wants to laugh. Well 99%? SM: Yeah. SJ-B:  Yeah, right. AW: Well, there’s probably 1% that really is just trying to shoot you down and heckle you. SJ-B: That’s a big part of being a performer is definitely to accept that the audience wants you to succeed. It’s just like going to an audition too. If you go to audition, the casting director wants you to succeed, because that’s makes their job a lot easier. They can pick somebody who’s going to be great. AW: I tell that to my kids, when they’re going to tryouts. The coaches want you guys to kick butt so – go. SJ-B: Makes their job easier. SM: And also when you’re casting, you don’t want to sit there all day and see everybody not do well.  You want to see them rock and kill it. So you want to create that environment where they’re set up to succeed. They know it’s a safe place. And you’re like, even though small little moments when somebody is coming into a casting session, or an audition ago, hey, Andrea, we’re glad you’re here today. You good? Okay. Great, have fun. It’s cool. You sweated about this audition or this scenario for at least a week, if not two, you’ve talked to 10 other people about it. There’s a lot of pressure in the industry about what this specific moment could be. But let’s put that aside and just know, hey, we’re just in this room on this day, and hopefully, you can have fun and, you know, maybe it moves forward. And if not, then maybe we’ll see you next time when it’s all good. You know, because you don’t want to be – I think in those moments, there’s this like, industry perception around the crazy audition or it’s all this pressure and that and there is. But a lot of it doesn’t need to be there. And the people who are auditioning in those scenarios or casting. They don’t want people to be in their heads or SJ-B: No. But I would say the worst audience is if it’s your ex girlfriend, so that’s bad. AW:  Did that happen to you? SJ-B: if you have ex girlfriends, boyfriends, ex husbands, wives… Well, yeah, for sure. And then you can tell when there’s people in the audience that just hate you. So they’re like, they just want you to be terrible. AW: Can you share any details? SJ-B: I only would just say like, I’ve had the experience of like, you are performing sketches or improv after your ex girlfriend’s troupe has been on and they’ve been terrible. AW: Oh – she’s a comedian too? Oh – bad! SJ-B: Yeah. And I’ll go on stage media to Yeah, and then you go on stage and it’s just like, they’re like, just arms crossed, like I hate this. So there are definitely those kind of scenarios where this person can’t stand me. They are here to watch me fail. They just definitely happen. AW: So then the analogy, then back to the boardroom. Yeah, is the guy that goes up to do the pitch. And then he leaves the room and his colleague goes in to give a different pitch, and only one of the pitches is going to be accepted. Right. And so it’s a zero sum game and the thing about comedy though, is that it’s not a zero sum game. You can laugh at everybody. SJ-B: Yeah, yeah. SM: Yeah.  That’s true. SJ-B: Unless they broke up with you and then I just keep circling back to that. It was a long time ago. I remember this, but that did come back to me. That is an example of a bad audience member. SM: And somebody who’s out to get you –  also to your point, if you’re able to laugh at everybody. You have to start by laughing at yourself and be able to look in the mirror and go, Hey, like, I’m not perfect. I’m kind of giving it all and having a lot of fun in this scenario, and if people are doing that, they’re like, okay, I can do that as well. AW: So there’s balancing that you said before – confidence, right? So there’s balancing the confidence with also not being too full of yourself. SM: For sure. The confidence piece is: I’m confident in being imperfect and flawed and I will make a ton of mistakes, and I’m gonna have a lot of fun along the way. And if you want to come along for the ride, that’s cool. SJ-B: And the audience appreciates that for sure. the honesty of like, I made a mistake. I don’t want to own it. AW: So they say self-deprecation. It’s kind of like low hanging fruit in stand up? SJ-B: Sure. I would agree with that. For sure it is. The greatest stories are how bad the audition went. And that’s the story you tell at the bar, right? And my wife’s an actor too. And often when she’s about to do an audition or callback or something, I’ll say, look, either have a great audition or have a great story. Just come home with something. So come back happy or come back. I gotta tell you what happened. It was so brutal. AW: You are going to be quoted on that.  That is so beautiful. SJ-B: So much fun to have a bad audition story when it goes wrong and it’s just gold. Gold. Yeah. AW: So and then the analogy there is when you go to do a job interview, right, and you either get the job or you have a good story. SJ-B: because that’s exactly it. That is an audition. It’s a job interview every single time. SM: So when you’re pitching business to use that is a contextual tie-in to improv and all this stuff we’re talking about – With pitching the business, if you’re pitching a new client, as an example, people want to see you be able to react to questions out of nowhere, think on your feet, they don’t want to see a deck for 100 slides. That’s the know your audience piece, no more than 10 slides. But they also want to know, hey, if we ask you a stumper question, or if, you know, Carol, the main boss, comes in at the last half hour, I don’t know where that you’re going to be okay. And that’s where the improv training comes in. We’re kind of in a boardroom. Like, you know, if you’re pitching business in the boardroom, and you’ve already improvised, there’s really not a lot that’s going to be potentially worse than some of these crazy situations or scenarios because it’s in an office in a protected environment. With rules and regulations. AW:  But sometimes it is high stakes and it’s got the adrenaline going and I think … you’re getting presentations and people are firing questions at you … SJ-B: But as improvisers we often say to play the scene you’re in, not the one you want to be in. We say you play the scene you’re in not the one you want to be in. AW: That’s a great mantra or quote as well. I love that. I love that! So and it’s also at a meta level, right? It’s the scene you’re in like, what is your life or what is your job, right? Yeah, but then there’s also I was actually thinking you were gonna say something about your kid who you thought was a goody-goody in a straight-laced A+, comes into your house –  stoned.  You have to play the scene you’re in. SJ-B:  Yeah, right. You can’t say like, you should be this or I thought you were this. Exactly that’s exactly it. Or it’s like, you know, you’re in this great scenario for parents. Your kid comes up, says I’m gay. Play the scene you’re in, and not the one you want to be in. Right. So it was kind of scenarios or I don’t want to go to college –  play the scene you’re in. SM: That’s a great point and tying the play the scene you’re in piece, along with what you’re saying, Andrea, about answering tough questions or being in a corporate scenario or being in the hot seat. There’s another piece of lingo which is really simple. A phrase called Thank you, which we use all the time, where if a tough question comes up, and … say you’re pitching business, and if somebody asks you a really tough question, you go, thanks for the question. That immediately defuses any sort of anxiety you might have just by a little bit. It gives you two seconds to think about your answer. And it also tells the group, you’re cool with it. It just level sets everything. It’s a little piece of jujitsu in those high pressure situations. Let you go, let’s you say, Oh, thanks for that. Okay. Well, here’s what I think. AW:  I think you gotta be careful with the tone though, the way you’re saying it is very, like great, right? SJ-B: Thank you, Diane. Wow, okay. Wow, thank you for that I was in a flow, but you’ve just stopped it for your question. SM: Thank you for that soul killing question. Yeah, yeah, but you’re right, like a genuine thanks. In that moment. Taking time to connect with a person helps diffuse any sort of pressure you might have. It also just gives you a chance to sit with it for a second. Versus going, Oh, well, well, well. And I think it’s those micro moments that make everybody else feel at ease in business situation. So if the power goes out or if the deck doesn’t work. So it’s like, Hey, if you’re presenting, don’t take the hundred slides, it’s a follow up like, it’s a big win to go into a business pitch and just have a conversation with somebody – that’s improvised. Obviously, you have to keep the train on time, you have to get your points across, you have to have a beginning, middle and end to a conversation. But the same time if you don’t hit slide 49, literally nobody cares. And a lot of people put a lot of pressure on themselves, to have that script in hand, because they may not have just the comfort of having a real conversation, where they might have the pressure of getting all these ideas across when you really could do that over a longer period. AW: I just have to say I feel like you’re speaking to me, the podcast host that has the list of questions in front of her.  I’m trying really hard not to look at it. SJ-B: this, this is actually your intervention and I hope you appreciate it. It’s gonna get really tough for you in about 10 minutes, but we’re just easing into the real intervention. Okay. I have a letter from your child here. Dear Mom. No, I think… SM: What  copy would you like? Yeah. SJ-B: That is such a true point to say thank you. I would say one thing that is a gift when people have a question, everyone else might be thinking it. And I and oftentimes when you pitch to a boardroom of people, and no one asked the question you leave there and like, I don’t really understand that. I didn’t want to ask a question, but I don’t understand it. So moving on, that at least gets that they’re interested in engaging and clarified. I think that’s a gift to people. That’s what I think. You should be genuine. SM: You’re really good at asking that. You say that quite often on calls and meetings. You’re great at that. You’ll say I have a question that everybody else might have. But I’m fine to ask it. Yeah. What time do we have to be there tomorrow? Whatever it is, right? Because then everybody goes, thank you for asking the question that was on everybody’s mind. AW: I’ve actually seen that in board meetings when somebody asks something and you physically see people go, Oh, yeah, thank goodness. So then if you are the one that’s on stage and you explicitly thank them, then it kind of really just reinforces that you’re putting everybody at ease. SJ-B: Well, if you say thank you to a suggestion from the audience as an improviser, they’re going to give you more suggestions later. But if they give you a suggestion, and you’re like, really? okay, fine! We’ll go to a gas station. They’re never going to give suggestion at any improv show. Humiliated you’re, you’re embarrassed. SM: Hundred percent. That’s something we see with newer improvisers a lot when we’re teaching is, let’s say, Hey, can I get a suggestion for location? Paris? No.  Not that.  Then they’re like okay, then forget it. Never mind. SJ-B: Now everybody’s got it? AW: So that’s going against the YES AND. SJ-B:  Yeah AW: you don’t say no, you always say yes. SJ-B: And yeah, absolutely. AW: And where in Paris? In the market? SJ-B: Yeah, you can push it for sure. You can totally say that. Like, let’s shrink it down a little bit. You can totally do that. But you can’t just say no, we’re not going to Paris. SM: If you don’t want a specific suggestion. By the way. There’s a trick that a lot of improvisers use called burning a suggestion. Oh, kind of a backstage thing where you’ll say, Can I get a suggestion for a location? Like a Starbucks or a bathroom? And so if you don’t want a specific suggestion you put in in the ask. So can I get a suggestion for character name – like Sandy? SJ-B: Yeah. SM: Then if someone says Sandy, then you’re like something besides that, then you’re creating this agreement with the audience that you’ve already suggested a couple of examples already. Yes. Usually when you’re doing somebody these shows we asked for location. Everybody will always say a Starbucks or a bathroom. If it’s someone famous it’s Donald Trump. AW:  Really? SJ-B: Yeah, it’s really Starbucks or a bathroom or if its someone famous it’s Donald Trump. So you want to say like someone famous like Donald Trump, then you just burn that you don’t have to do it and it’s out there. It’s a great idea. Yes. SM: You don’t want to do a scene about Donald Trump. Nobody needs to see it. We’re seeing it every day. We don’t need to see a scene of a famous person like Donald Trump or Jesus. So when you’re doing work for .. AW: Does Jesus come up a lot? SJ-B: That’s right, you’re agnostic or was it you know, like, you would never talk with Jesus. That’s your thing, right? SM: I would talk about it. SJ-B: You just covered politics and religion. SM:  That’s exactly it. Things you don’t want to do in some unknown audiences or corporate audiences you don’t want to ever tackle politics or religion. Because in those scenarios in like when we’re getting ready for these shows will usually ask the planners, when we say something who’s everybody going to look at to see if it’s okay to laugh? Yeah. And they’ll say, Carol. Great. Can we get Carol on a call? AW: That is a question! SM: We’ll often ask that, and then they’re usually a really honest with us and they’ll say, you know, because they’ll, they’ll often say, we really want you to push the envelope, we really want you guys to kind of go for it. They may, they may,… but they may not know what that necessarily means. So really, pushing the envelope might be something super, super offensive, or unplanned or unknown for this one company, right? Yeah, we usually just say, who’s everybody gonna look at to see if it’s okay to laugh? And we get that person on a call or to sign off on the actual content. And then if they’re in on it, then the show goes way, way better. SJ-B: Oh, yeah, definitely. AW: Uh huh. Okay, let’s move on. What is it or what are the things that comedians do that makes them so great when they’re on the stage? Is it for example? (And now you’re going to have to say its NOT that!)  Is it filling awkward silences? Is it creating awkward silences? Is it taking people outside of their comfort zone? SJ-B: Honesty. For me is key. Honesty is always key. So doing things that people relate to. You can have an entire scene is just a simple activity that everyone does and that can kill because everyone goes, Oh, I can relate to that. That’s exactly how it would be. There’s a famous scene in Second City called “Shower,”  where it’s a guy just having a shower when he washes his penis… Anyway, the crowd goes crazy because they’re like, Man, that’s his shower. All he’s doing is having a shower. And it’s funny, but that’s a very honest thing. Honesty would be really big. SM: Yeah, knowing who you are and having fun with that, I think is a understanding of who you are as a performer and as a person and being okay with it. I am a tall, lanky, dorky person who likes to do math on the weekends. So like that’s … AW: Aren’t you a dorky scientist in a commercial right now? SM: I play dorky scientist in a commercial, which is a dream come true. I just show up in my own labcoat. With my own clipboard. Yeah. AW: I can’t unsee that when I look at you. SM: Thank you for saying that, because it’s actually just like it is on the weekends. No, but it’s like, I think it’s, we think of like delightful people – who we love seeing on stage, they’re just having a blast every night. They’re laughing, they’re there to have fun and to play. So there’s a play element in that that should be fun. It should be relaxed and chill and rewarding and that kind of thing as well. But it should also be fun. So when you’re seeing people like being honest, they know who they are, but they’re also having a lot of fun with that. That’s something it’s really hard to learn over time. Because I think when you’re coming up as an improviser, you’re like, I want to be exactly like this person, and I’m going to grow up to be the next so and so and so and so or whatever, but then you’re like, no, it’s like, I’m just gonna do my thing, then a lot of stuff unlocks. And the audiences respond to a lot more. Then you become more comfortable with not having to be all things to all people. I think the confidence thing you’re talking about with like not being too polished, and I’m super confident guy, you what I mean? SJ-B: Yeah. I think comedians are also successful if they are respectful of the audience. They know what the audience wants. Certainly when a comedian starts to freak out on some audience member – we’ve seen – that’s happened. The audience all hates that. No one likes that. Or if there’s someone heckling, they take care of it the right way. And I also think a very important part of being successful in comedy is knowing when the show is over. Time is everything and leaving them wanting more, of course, is an old saying, but it’s very true. And a lot of comedians lose the show because they go too long. AW: I feel like all of these things that you guys are listing are all lessons in life. SM: They are. SJ-B: Yeah, maybe they are. Yeah, exactly. Know when to leave the party. Right? That was the Johnny Carson phrase, which was, I left the Tonight Show because you got to know when to leave the party. So when you’re actually at a party? Yep, there’s 10 people left. I don’t want to be the last guy. Yeah, I’m going to leave now that that’s a really important thing. That’s exactly what it is. When you’re pitching something, make it short, make it get to the point then get out of there. AW: Make them curious about what else you can do? SJ-B: Absolutely. SM: And one other one that I have to throw in as well is empathy. And so people who are really good improvisers, I feel like are really empathetic and they’re just good human beings. And they might be like, that’s a really good person. That is because they’re really great listeners. They’re really empathetic. I see that in the business world all the time. And people don’t have that extra dose of empathy. So improv really teaches you that – like seeing something from somebody else’s perspective. Or just knowing – it’s not all about this show. We also want to be good people in like life yeah, we want to be good people. Yeah so, I think that’s the thing like in business and comedy and improv in life is like, are you just focusing on making the other person look better? Are you focusing on trying to do a little better for the world everyday versus a little worse for the world? And if you are, then you’re successfully improvising. AW: That’s right. What are the skills that the employers are looking to train their staff in when they hire you? SJ-B: They want to break down silos and get people talking to each other and but that’s a big one right away is like how do we get everyone talking to each other. AW: So it’s social? SM: I think you’re right about it. The core is talking to each other. Yeah. And communication. Like that’s probably the base. I think if you’re looking for extensions or like some tentacles, right?  Like the big hydra, this would be. You’d have change management or effective brainstorming, presentation skills, storytelling. Every company in the planet on a first call will always, always, always, always say – without hesitation – we’re going through a lot of change. So everybody’s always going through a lot of and people don’t like it. They don’t like it. Yeah. So how do we deal with that? So change management, when you’re improvising, you’re literally dealing with change on the fly in front of audiences on the spot. So how can we unpack those skills and teach them to people who work in offices every single day, so that they manage change more effectively? So change management’s a big thing. AW: Okay, I need to be mindful. And I want to get to the five rapid fire questions. But before I do that, do you have anything else that you want to add about improv and thinking and talking on your feet? SM: The other thing I would add is thank you for having us. It’s been fun. It’s fun to hear what both of you guys have to say about this. In terms of thinking or talking on your feet. I guess I would add that there’s really no right or wrong. SJ-B: Exactly right. Everything that’s right or wrong is an offer. In fact, the mistakes are where the best comedy comes from – always. The mistakes are so golden and so many great sketches and improv scenes come from mistakes. So being afraid to make mistakes is the worst thing you can do. Be free to fail and fail fast and all those things they say but: go be terrible if you have to. And as some people say, just dare to suck. Yeah. AW: because then you have story material. SJ-B: Oh my God, that’s the best stories. AW: Okay, now I’m going to fire the five rapid fire questions at you. SM: Great. AW: Okay, so Sandy Jovan-Bevin. What are your pet peeves? SJ-B: Where do I start? Oh my gosh, I have so many pet peeves. Well, currently, my pet peeve is the cat down the street that keeps crapping on my lawn. But that’s not really a universal pet peeve. I think one of my biggest pet peeves is when I go to pitch doing a show or teaching and someone starts off a meeting and says, You know, I don’t like comedy, but what do you guys gonna do? That’s an incredible thing because I’m so sad for that person. And just like, you’re just my golden moment there would have been just you have a sad life and then end the meeting. That’s a big pet peeve to kick off by saying I don’t like comedy. SM: We’ve actually heard that now. AW: Really? SJ-B: Oh, yeah, several times. Yeah. I don’t like comedy. AW: Does that mean I don’t like to laugh? SJ-B:  Yeah, no. I don’t like to live. Like, what kind of life is that? It’s crazy. That’s my pet peeve. AW: Okay, Sandy Marshall? SM: My pet peeve is when people don’t do what they say they’re going to do. So if they’re going to email you by Friday, and they don’t email by Friday. I just don’t understand it. I think being non committal. Sandy will attest to this. I think it’s when people actually just don’t get back on email. Like how could you not get back on email? Like we’re, we’re rocking on this thing. We’re rocking on this email thread. AW: There’s a lot of people that have a lot email issues. SJ-B: Wow. Interesting. AW: There are people that in my close circle of friends that have over 14,000 unread emails in their inbox.  Can you imagine? SJ-B: No, that’s SM: Yeah, I honestly want my gravestone to literally – I wanted to read at least he got back on email. SJ-B: It’s noted. SM: Thank you. AW:  I have a paper for you to read. Okay, great. Sandy Marshall again, what type of learner are you? SM: Probably I learned most by doing something. Probably a physical learner by performing or teaching or direct. AW: Okay. SJ-B:  I learn most by making mistakes. So if I screw up I generally learn from that mistake. If I’m doing things great, I don’t learn anything from it. AW: Next question. Introvert or extrovert? SJ-B: Extrovert. Totally. AW: Hundred percent? SJ-B:  Oh, yeah. It was no doubt. AW: and Sandy Marshall? SM:  I would say introvert. I think I can dial up the extraversion when I need to. But you know, looking at what extroverts might get versus introverts to recharge the battery. I get my battery recharged by reading books over the weekend. SJ-B: You said earlier you do math on the weekends. SM: I do math on the weekends. AW: You’re just a total nerd on the weekends. SJ-B: On the weekends? SM: Thanks! How do we all really feel? Let’s have this be the intervention. SJ-B: I’ll bet a lot of stand-up communities are introverts for sure. And that’s why they just get so freaked out after shows when everyone comes over to talk to them because they’re like they’re just really want to go home now. Yeah, it’s like paralyzing almost. AW: That’s really interesting is it? We shouldn’t make assumptions about a person’s personality based on how they’re acting in front of the class or in front of the boardroom or on stage. SJ-B: Absolutely not. AW: The next question is: communication preference for personal conversations. Sandy Marshall? SM: In person. I always like in person over phone or email. I’ve do a lot of work over the phone, a lot of work over the email, but I really like in-person. SJ-B: Completely agree. In person. AW:  They’re both looking at me with their heads nodding. SJ-B: Next. This is Rapid Fire! AW: Last question. Is there a podcast or blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? SJ-B: You have to listen to Dexter Guff is Smarter Than You. I think that’s the smartest, best podcast that’s out there right now. Dexter Guff. Please check it out. AW:  I will. SM: I completely agree. It is really actually, I think it’s the funniest podcast out there. AW:  Oh, I am definitely gonna listen to it. SJ-B: so start from the beginning because it has an overall arc that happens through the whole thing. AW:  So okay, I’ll put a link to the shownotes so the listeners can also check it out. Is there anything else you want to add about improv and thinking and talking on your feet? SM:  Tuning in to how many times you hear yes or no, during the day or in your own language is interesting. I think something from our side of the table that we can hear after a while is when people tend to say no a lot. It’s kind of, you know, we’re sort of our antennas up to it. Just pay attention to how often you’re saying yes, and how often you’re saying no. Conversely, there’s a really good book about saying no, called Essentialism by Greg McCowan. It’s one of my favorite books. It’s a business book, but it’s all about setting up clear boundaries. So when you get into improv obviously, like Sandy was saying, you have to keep the train on time, know when the show is over. So you have to have fixed boundaries as well. So looking at when no can also be effective in life is really useful because if you say yes to everything on the planet, you’re just gonna, you’re not gonna get anything done. So you have to kind of balance both of those. But, you know, listening when you say yes or no was interesting. SJ-B: I have absolutely nothing else to add. Thank you. AW:  Except a little laugh. SJ-B: Yeah. AW:  Thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise, and I had fun. SJ-B: We had a blast.  I’m speaking for me. SM:  I had a blast as well. Sandy. Thanks for having us, Andrea. AW:  My face actually hurts from smiling. SM:  Okay, good. Thanks for having us. What type of what type of learner are you? Are you audio? visual? AW:  Definitely visual. SM:  I think we need to hear your rapid fire on the podcast. SJ-B: That’s right SM:  At some point. Maybe next time.   THANKS for listening!   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]     TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker, parent, partner and friend.   TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that enriches our relationships and enhances our career success by providing us with knowledge, strategies and confidence.”       ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. The post #34 LESSONS FROM THE IMPROV STAGE with Sandy Marshall & Sandy Jobin-Bevans appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Authenticity is important for both people and for brands. But what does it really mean to “be authentic”?  Ana Serrano (CFC chief digital officer) shares her expertise on authenticity, including how the digital realm has amplified the performative nature of authenticity and how inauthentic “green-washing,” “art-washing” and “social impact washing” on behalf of brands can backfire. References & Links Ana Serrano and CFC LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/anaserrano1/ Email – [email protected]. Canadian Film Centre (CFC) – http://cfccreates.com/ At the CFC – http://cfccreates.com/staff_members/52 Ideaboost – http://cfccreates.com/programs/20-ideaboost Recommendations: The Logic – https://thelogic.co/ The Discourse – https://www.thediscourse.ca/ Exponential View podcast – https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/exponential-view-with-azeem-azhar/id1172218725 Podyssey – https://podyssey.fm/ Other References JCP – Journal of Consumer Psychology – https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273490018_Brand_authenticity_An_integrative_framework_and_measurement_scale Forbes – https://www.forbes.com/sites/nikkibaird/2018/08/03/brand-authenticity-is-it-really-that-complicated/#292d31a7481e MarketingLand – https://marketingland.com/brands-strive-for-authenticity-as-audiences-turn-a-skeptical-eye-toward-ads-236295 Racked – https://www.racked.com/2018/7/18/17578786/feminist-brand-apparel-capitalism Sydney Morning Herald – https://www.smh.com.au/world/coke-worker-sacked-for-drinking-pepsi-20030615-gdgxls.html https://www.brandauthenticity.org/brand-authenticity.htm Psychology Today – https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/click-here-happiness/201904/develop-authenticity-20-ways-be-more-authentic-person Psychology Today – https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-science-behind-behavior/201605/what-mr-trump-s-success-teaches-us-about-authentic-branding Psychology Today on Trump – https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-science-behind-behavior/201605/what-mr-trump-s-success-teaches-us-about-authentic-branding Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website: https://talkabouttalk.com Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Andrea’s email – [email protected]   Interview Transcript Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us. Ana Serrano: Thank you. AW: Let’s just get right into the nitty gritty and start with what your definition of authenticity is. AS: I think it’s the act of being real or true. And it’s interesting that I’m using the word act there. Because it’s either you are real or true. But can you also act real and true? And I think that’s the purpose of this conversation –  is to unpack where that performative aspect of authenticity lies. AW: Okay, so let’s unpack it. So let me ask you one question. First, is there a difference between real and true? AS: No, I think they’re different. I think, in a weird way, real, could have more scientific proof around it. You know, you could imagine observable phenomenon as being real. True, perhaps, is less observable and is also attached to a certain amount of subjectivity. So that’s not from the Oxford dictionary or anything like that. But that’s how I would make a distinction between the two. AW: Okay. So an example of that, that I’m thinking of, is someone who is expressing their true beliefs about something. But when you hook them up to an MRI, or something that’s taking latent measures of their physical reactions, it would say that what they’re saying is true, actually, is not really what their body is saying. AS: Sure. Sure. That’s an example. Yeah. AW: So in your definition, you also used the word Act, which is just getting right into it! AS: Yes! AW: There’s what we want to be. And when I say we, we are of course talking about us as individuals in the many roles that we have, but also us representing the brands that we work on as marketers. AS: Yes. AW: So what do you mean, when you say act? AS: Well, I think especially today, although I’m not sure to what extent the digital realm has amplified the performative nature of authenticity? Perhaps authenticity has always been performed, even without the performance being mediated by any kind of media, okay, whether that’s print, books, etc. But I think it is important to understand that there’s a fine line between being authentic and performing authenticity. AW: Okay. So the being is your true self? AS: Well, I wouldn’t call it true self. It’s actually it has to do with how much we mediate our representation of ourselves to others. So some people think that we’re constantly mediating how we want others to see us.  So any kind of communication is a kind of conscious or unconscious projection of ourself – in the way we want to be perceived. AW: So as a psychologist the term self-awareness is coming up. And, it’s to the extent to which you’re self-aware, have appropriate behaviors or were. And then presenting or performing, consistent with those. AS: Yes, it how much is the presentation of the self in any way, shape or form performative unconsciously or consciously? And so, in a way, if you think about that, then all of a sudden, any of the ways in which we represent ourselves as either being authentic or victimized, or, or those are could all be performative in a way? AW: Yeah. So my brain’s exploding with all the different examples, right? How did I dress to come here?  Was I my authentic self? Am I doing something to make you think something? AS: And so … but I think –  I don’t want people to get all freaked out about this, because it can get really kind of like, Oh, no, am I really not being true? Because I’m performing my truth, whatever. You know, I don’t I’m not saying this to give us yet another thing to be anxious about. I’m just saying, you know, communication is complex, basically, which is what your podcast is all about. It’s not, it’s actually not just a simple you relay a message, and someone receives it. There’s a lot that goes on in the relaying. And there’s a lot that goes on as it travels. And there’s a lot that goes on when it’s received. AW: Absolutely. Okay. So we use the term self-awareness when it comes to an individual, what would be analogous to that for an online brand? So as a human, I’m self-aware. As a brand? AS: Well, I think what I have noticed, being, I would say, a medium expert at social media (and I say medium because I think I’m adept at managing my social media profiles, or at least my performances and social media), if you will, but I’m certainly not, that’s not my full time job. And so I don’t devote 100% 24-7 of my day to it. But you know, posting often enough, you start to understand the cadence, the tone, the responses, the phrasing, the nuance. I don’t know if this is the way it is for everyone. But that’s actually what makes social media fun for me. So I see it as a kind of like a conscious, creative craft, where I’m trying to really –not to be inauthentic– Okay, again, because I’m trying, it’s not like I’m trying to pretend to be anyone else other than I am, especially in the personal social media accounts that I have, or platforms that I that I’m in. It’s more like, I have an idea that, you know, Instagram is a private account for me. And that’s where I talk about my son. Actually, it’s less about how I talk about my son. It’s actually a space where I’m trying to display my visual prowess. So for me, Instagram is all about the type of photography I like to take. And the kind of things that I’d like to present about my visual eye, if you will. Unfortunately, or fortunately, my poor son, you know, beleaguered son is my is my model in many of these photographs, right? So that’s, so that’s become my thing. On Facebook, I’m a lot more of the citizen activists type sort of persona. And that’s certainly a part of my life. But that’s what I’m sort of curating in that platform. And so, I know which parts of myself I’m showing on which platforms, and depending on those selves, I start to really understand that the stuff that I talked about– the cadence, the tone, the things — and then you start to understand what people respond to. And so you, you give them more of what they’re looking for, depending on the responses. AW: So it sounds like you’re describing a learning curve. Right? Where, as you said, if you were on at 24, seven, , learning curve would be vertical., quickly learn what gets responses. Is that the goal? Kind of playing the devil’s advocate here, but is the goal to get responses? AS: No, I think, well, is it the goal? Let me see. Let me see. For sure, the platforms are created to encourage that kind of feedback loop. Right. So for sure, like the answer can’t possibly be no. The answer is definitely a yes. But the but then the question becomes, is that the only goal? And I don’t think it’s the only goal? You know? So the answer is yes. Not necessarily because that’s the explicit sort of perceived and conscious goal you might have. For many people, it’s probably not conscious. Unless that’s really what you’re doing, which is if you’re an influencer, and you know that you’re counting your likes, because that translates into money. But for most people, I don’t think they’re really think of it as like, Oh, I want 300 likes for this. That’s my goal. I don’t think they consciously think that. But I think because the platforms are built that way, you can’t help but make that be a metric to determine whether or not what you’ve said resonates. Its less about the likes, really, it’s more like, Am I looking stupid when I post this? Or does this resonate? So it’s about resonance, I think in many ways, which is slightly more nuanced than likes. Because I think likes is a very transactional, which is like, I want likes, because it makes me money. For the average person who’s just using social media, to start to curate conversations with their communities. What they’re really looking for is resonance. AW: Right. And probably from people that they respect. AS: Yes. From people that they respect, so there’s a qualifier to that. So it’s not just the quantity, but who, who responded. AW: So whether it’s in the context of social media, and also, again, whether it’s personal or for a brand, why does authenticity matter? AS: Because the media is an intimate medium, the medium appears to be one-on-one. Okay? So if you look at YouTube, for example, there’s a reason why all the major YouTubers have their face– the first thing you see is their face. And they go, Hello, everybody!!! You know, it looks like they’re talking to you. They’re connecting with each individual. AW: It’s like podcasting, right?. You’re literally in people’s head. With your earbuds. Yeah. So it’s because of the intimacy of the medium, despite the fact that it was never meant to be this broadcast medium. I mean, what’s really interesting about digital network media, is it was supposed to be this kind of like multi-channel many-to-many, one-to-one broadcast medium. That was the antidote to the broadcast media of television, where you’ve got the expert telling everyone what to do, right? But what’s happened, I think, is that you’ve had the weird shift, where many of the mainstream platforms–  especially the ones, the monopolies, like YouTube — it’s become a broadcast medium, which is one too many. But it disguises itself as a one to one. AW: What do you mean by that? AS: Meaning, it’s definitely a one to many, but it feels like it’s a one-to-one because of the intimacy of it. AW: Okay, you know, and also, I’m not sure if you were getting at this, but the democratization of it, where suddenly the person that was being broadcasted to can spell it out. AS: Of course, of course, that’s a key part of it – is that it’s a two-way street. AW: So what happens then, when a brand or say an influencer, whoever it is, is perceived as being inauthentic? AS: I think you can get a backlash very, very quickly, you know, very quickly. I mean, you just have to, I’m almost scared to bring this up. Okay? Three weeks before the election, we have a perfect case study of a brand – you know, one of our revered brands in Canada, the Prime Minister’s brand –  taking a beating for things that were revealed, that did not fit the brand that they were promoting across all the media platforms, including social media. The social media use of the Prime Minister’s office with Prime Minister himself was quite adept. There are many, many instances of posts that spoke directly to creating an intimate relationship between the life of the Prime Minister (the kind of ordinariness of his life )that and… AW: actually, you know, his employment of social media, particularly Instagram, I think is actually part of his brand. It’s not just the message, but it’s also the medium. AS: Exactly, exactly. And then, and then you’ve got the stuff that came out and the yearbooks… I think where people really looked very carefully was like, Okay, so how is it going to respond to this? How is he going to,… how authentic will his response to this particular issue of the yearbook photos be? And that authenticity is an interesting to think to watch, because it’s different at a press conference (distributed via media channels), when versus when he has prepared remarks, versus whatever he tweets out, versus the subsequent tweets that he might put out that’s more formal versus … So it’s like, you then see, wow, you know, it’s a very difficult thing to cultivate. (Now I’m talking about it is true authenticity, which is even weirder!) but you know, it’s very difficult to cultivate sort of a more conscious …Well, I guess, true authenticity, I think. AW: you know, so I think this is actually a great example. Yes. Because you spoke about your books from what was it? 15 years ago? AS: 2001. AW: And then so there’s the consistency of what he’s communicating in terms of his values. implicitly, right.. And today we and explicitly advocating things, and then also today, it’s across mediums. Here’s the meta question is authenticity, consistency? Is that really what it is? AS: No, no, no, not at all. I don’t think so at all people change, people change. I think I think the best we can do with authenticity is:  as close to an expression of what you believe to be true at the time that you’re telling it. AW: So personally and professionally, I agree. But the rhetoric, the discourse out there right now is all about how can we trust him if he said and did this 15 years ago, and now he’s saying and doing something completely different? AS: So if I were to do an audit of the responses to his responses, let’s say. There’s responses to his apology that’s politicized. And then there’s a whole bunch of responses to his apology, that I think span the continuum of understanding that they buy the sincerity, or at least they believe that he thinks he’s being sincere in his apology, but there are those who don’t care how sincere he is, and therefore still will chastise him for not knowing any better. And then there are those who say, okay, he may think he’s sincere, I’ll grant him that, but let’s look at his actions. And then the other part, which is like, let’s check out what he does from here on in, you know, AW: so the responses then are, you’re basically creating a segmentation scheme, right? There’s well, who cares? People that don’t care. The people who are politicized the ones aren’t the people who believe them, the ones that, ones that think people could change the one thing people fundamentally can change. So across all those things, you have a myriad of segments that you could put people into. But the truth is, this is a huge challenge for him. And the other example when I google “inauthentic brand, faux pas” the example that came up a couple times was Whole Foods in the States, which was touting all sorts of great values for our planet and for our people. And then they were caught putting barely perished, in fact, not quite perished food,  out in bins, like in the garbage basically, they were…: AS: Oh, dear, I didn’t even know about that. AW: it was a long time ago. So whether it’s your reputation at work, and something happens, and people think what she’s not as professional as I thought she was! Or it could be your prime ministerial candidate who’s trying to get re-elected and something’s rediscovered from your past. Or it could be that you’re a retailer who has explicitly touted certain values.. And you’ve been caught doing things that are inconsistent with those. Yes. What can you do I probably employing digital media again, but what can you do about that? AS: Well, I guess the one thing we haven’t talked about is like, you can think you’re authentic. And I understand there are certain moments when you can’t actually reveal, especially if you’re in public office, let’s say. It might be very difficult to actually say exactly what you feel or think. Right. So I get that part. But if you didn’t have to worry about that, and you could actually do this, then the other part that I think helps us determine how authentic that piece of communication is, is whether the attendant actions, either at the time or in the future, match what’s being said. AW: So I’m walking-the-talk. AS: So I think part of it is has to do with this walking-the-talk thing. AW: And then in the new digital economy, would be demonstrating that in an appropriate way across each platform. AS: I think in the digital economy, what is absolutely clear, is how you behave is so much more easily capturable, if you will. Information moves so fast, and travels so quickly, that it’s very difficult not to get caught in a lie. If you are actually saying one thing and doing another. I think I think that’s very hard to do. Unless, well, maybe I’m being naïve? Maybe that is easier to do, then, you know? Certainly there are lots of examples of corporations doing things for a very long time that the public didn’t know about. Right? And so it depends on your timeframe. Eventually you get caught? I don’t know. AW: I found lots of stuff, when I was doing the research on authenticity, about Trump. There’s the question of whether he is authentic, because he seems scattered and it’s down to the consistency thing, right? AS: I think Trump is a very interesting figure, because I think (well, that’s an understatement). But weirdly enough, I think he is authentic, in that he truly believes what he is saying is real or true at the time. So that is what translates across media. And perhaps that’s what has translated to his supporters. They believe him, when he says, you know, whatever, I can’t even … AW: We’re going to make America great again! AS: Exactly. He conveys it with unequivocal belief. And so I guess, his supporters – that delivery resonates with his supporters. I can’t say whether he has any mental illness or what psychological profile he has. Certainly, there’s been enough written about him by experts who are suggesting that he is a particular type of psychological profile, in which case, that particular profile tends to be delusional. And so the delusion extends to – him really thinking that what he does and say, is true and real and comes from this authentic place. AW: That’s fascinating. Actually, a psychiatrist, I suppose, would be the person that would do the assessment or analysis of this. But when I was doing the research on authenticity, they said in the psychology, it’s true self, its original self, it’s vulnerable self and its consistency. And then for inauthentic, it’s fake self, idealised, superficial, pseudo self. And these are qualities associated with narcissism. Which is a term that I’ve heard associated with Trump. But then he also gets written up as being the most authentic candidate, because of exactly what you just said: He says what he thinks. AS: So yeah, that is right. It is absolutely, it is absolutely a conundrum. AW: Okay, I actually read something yesterday on LinkedIn that a friend of mine posted. And it was a comparison of Millennials versus Gen Z, their work styles and their true values and their desires and all sorts of things. And on one of the lines, it said that millennials prefer brands that share their values, and Gen Zs prefer brands that feel authentic. And I was like, Wow, so the older folks, they want to hear about what the brand’s values are. And I think I feel like this gets a lot of discourse in marketing writeups and branding, right? Like, what are your brand values? Make sure you’re communicating it consistently? and etc.? Is it unique enough? Is it consistent enough? And then apparently, Gen Z, they care less than I just want the brand to feel authentic? What do you think about that? AS: I actually think that they mean the same things. The difference is that where the values get distributed to Gen Z is in the digital media platforms. And because the digital media platforms are intimate media, the way values get reflected in the feeling of authenticity, I actually think they’re the same thing. Where it gets tricky is this notion of feeling authentic and or being authentic. I honestly think it has to do with a deliver a medium, and I think Instagram is your medium. The sharing of values on Instagram, let’s say is, is really the feeling of authenticity in that medium. AW: I think I’ve got it; I think it’s: we share the same values. Perhaps they’re saying that the generation Z’s are more open minded to diverse perspectives. And as long as you are being AS: oh, interesting. Do you think that’s what it is? Might be? That’s interesting. So do you think then that Gen Z, is all about self-actualization? AW: That wouldn’t be a bad thing, would it? Another thing that comes up in the writing about authenticity is the difference between being nice versus being good. So nice is more conforming to expectations and being pleasant and acting positive. Versus being good is about being honest. When I think of branding, I think of the conflict, I guess, between being for-profit, but then also having strategic priorities or values associated with the firm, that really aren’t related to profit at all –  that you that you want to communicate, because they’re socially valued. Do you know what I’m trying to say? AS: Umm hmm. No, no, no. I mean, we are in that kind of bizarre arena right now, where there’s a lot of greenwashing. There’s a lot of artwashing. There’s a lot of … AW: love that!!! AS: … social impact washing, or what have you, right? Where corporations are using some of these changing cultural values to promote their activities or their products, thinking that that’s all that’s required, essentially, and for the benefit of their shareholders. And that’s what I mean, I guess by saying, you know, you do that at your peril. Because more and more people are getting cynical. And really, it’s like the post-Snowden world, right? Where it’s not, you don’t have to be a whistleblower, to kind of be in that mode of trying to ensure that who you say you are is really who you are. From a brand perspective, I think that’s a very difficult road to travel, if the type of marketing that you end up doing is just lip service to certain cultural values that aren’t really part of your firm’s core DNA. AW: What is the definition of it being core to your DNA? AS: So that, again, I think there’s a there’s a continuum of thought around that right. So for the purists, if you will, core DNA means is it embedded structurally and the way you do business. You know, so do you treat your employees well? Do you give the minimum wage? Do you have gender parity? Do you have…, and that’s for a particular set of values. Obviously, not all corporations will purport to have those values. But for the ones that do, you know, there are certain structural issues around how you run your business that are going to matter to those shareholders who have bought into that type of branding, if that’s what you used. AW:  And that’s where Whole Foods got caught, right? AS: yes, exactly. Exactly. AW: They weren’t doing the things they said they valued. AS: Exactly, exactly. So that’s the hardest part. And then I think there’s a whole variety of incremental moves towards that structural end. And that’s where I think people are now. Where they’re trying to negotiate Exactly. Where is the line? AW: So the other continuum – that was Nice versus Good, okay? or nice versus honest. And then the other one is Individualism versus Conforming, or individualism versus outer authenticity? You’re conforming to expectation. So, perhaps social expectation. Corporate expectations AS: So for me as a brand. The way I would like, not as a personal brand. I don’t mean that like that. But, but I’ve always been a proponent, visa-vis, versus businesses to really understand what their differentiated value proposition is. And so because I think if you know, what your differentiated value proposition is, and it has to be a value proposition, meaning you are actually delivering value to someone. And if you know what makes that value unique to someone than you, then you’re able to connect with that someone and that someone will connect to you and perhaps purchase your whatever it is you’re purchasing, okay AW: Can I just interrupt you to say… That was beautiful marketing. AS: Was it? AW: Yes, absolutely. AS: Okay. AW: You should teach a class! AS: But anyway, to me, that is actually the expression, a brand’s expression of authenticity, because you know, what your product is, why you made it, why it’s good, why it’s important, why it’s valuable, and to whom and for whom. And so I think it’s really important to have that as part of your core. And then if you understand that, and the marketers of your firm know that, then they know how to communicate that value. And that becomes an authentic way of communicating that value. AW: But I have to tell you, based on my experience in consulting, working on boards, so many organizations are just stuck missing that. They don’t understand that there is something about them, that is probably important to them. It’s also important to their current and prospective customers or consumers, that is unique versus their competition, and they need to find that thing and hang their hat on it. AS: Yeah. AW: And then they will be authentic. And they will succeed. AS: I suppose that is such an important perspective for me, because we run an accelerator. So you know, we’re dealing with founders and start-up founders all the time. And that is a core thing if they don’t know what their product is doing and why. So people talk about it as product-market fit. I actually hate that terminology, I don’t think it has the essence of that notion of delivering value to someone. So the product-market fit is almost like decoupled from the reason why most people do this kind of work, which is, they do it because they found something that they think would be a value to other people. And they want to see how they can make them, how they can share. So there’s a generosity and sort of creative act and entrepreneurship, that in a weird way, I think has been stripped out from all of the rhetoric surrounding start-up ecosystems, especially the ones that are coming out of Silicon Valley. Because they’ve made it this kind of scientific three-step way of how to make profit, you know? As opposed to really looking at like, Well, why do people make things? You know, what is this creative act all about? AW: Right, right. They’re trying to systematize it. They’re putting textbook frameworks basically on something that is much simpler than that. But yeah, another way you have to almost like, allow yourself to be vulnerable to get what it is. AS: Yes, exactly. Exactly. AW: Well, when you were talking here, I was thinking, I know exactly what I’m doing what, I am so passionate about communication, and how powerful it can be if you know how to do it. And I want to learn more about that myself personally, and share what I do know, with people to help them become more effective parents, coworkers, managers, whatever they’re doing, right? So okay, I’m going to ask you one last question. In terms of advice for listeners. Obviously, being perceived as being authentic is a positive thing. So what can people do to ensure that they are perceived as authentic? AS: So because there’s actually a video of me floating around on the internet with me saying this, I’ll say it again. So my biggest advice to myself to my son, and in fact, I just shared this with them the other day, which will make the audience members laugh, perhaps. And certainly, the young people that I mentor, is, it’s really, really important to know when your *&%$# stinks. AW: Bahahaha AS: That is one of the most important things. It all stems down to self-awareness. You can’t actually be authentic, if you don’t have an awareness of how you process information, synthesize and process… When I say information, it doesn’t have to be just words, it can be what you see and how you feel, and all that sort of stuff, right? AW:  internally and externally? AS: Yes, internally and externally. If you have no knowledge of how regulated or unregulated your emotional responses are.  And so self-regulation is one of the most important skills that we’re going to need as we try to negotiate what … It will be a very difficult time in the next 25 years, you know, as the planet gets taxed, with the issues plaguing us, and as we need to start sharing space with a lot more people. This is not just an issue for our daily lives in terms of our jobs. It’s going to be an issue of survival, right? AW: You’re thinking about yourself, your family, and then humanity, right? AS:  Yeah. AW: Beautiful. So now I’m going to ask you the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. Okay, the first question is, what are your pet peeves? AS:  Oh, my gosh, I don’t have very many, but like –people who are fake. AW: people who are not self-aware? AS:  People who are not self-aware. Yeah, I would say yes. But I have a lot of compassion for people who aren’t self-aware too because it’s very difficult work. So it’s both. AW: I could just going off on that! Second question. What type of learner are you? Visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner? AS:  I would say visual, I am a reader. Is that visual? AW: Do you draw things in your mind? Do you think in pictures? AS:  Do I draw? Hmm. What I like to do is really make connections, that’s my favorite thing in life — is to gather data from all sorts of different corners, and then start to draw connections between them. That’s what I like. AW: So one of my favorite people on the planet, whom also I interviewed in my 11th podcast focused on storytelling, is a professor at Harvard Business School. And he says that being able to make those connections from apparently disparate places is actually a key indicator of intelligence. And I think it’s true, though, right? AS:  Yeah. AW: If you can be abstractly about something, and then bring it in … Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert? AS:  I’m an introverted-extrovert. It means that on the whole, I’m extroverted. But then I crash very quickly. And so I will perform, perform, perform, and then I need to Netflix and chill for hours on end. AW:. Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations. AS:  This is the pet peeve of my entire social circle, which is I like to call people. And they’re like, why aren’t you texting me? Stop calling –  including my partner! It’s like, you could have told me that in a text. Stop calling us. AW: Why do you think you want to call people all the time? And your friends and colleagues don’t? AS:  I don’t know. I guess I’m a chitty-chatter. I don’t know. I just need …that’s how I connect. Texting I find, is too. Oh, you know what it is? I know what it is, weirdly enough. Anytime I write,  I think of it as a creative act. And so even texting or email or whatever. Not to say that I overthink my texts or anything. But you know, you’re creating something. So you search for the right GIF or whatever. Well and for me, when I’m talking on the phone, I feel like it’s more natural or more spontaneous, more spontaneous. AW: Interesting. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you recommend the most lately? AS:  Well, I’m a big fan because we invested in them. So obviously, The Logic and The Discourse are our two local news sources that I go to often. The logic is from Toronto, and it focuses on the innovation economy in Canada. And then The Discourse is another local news, but it focuses on communities. So they have particular issues surrounding different communities. So I like those. I like Exponential View. And then in terms of podcasts, I guess you’re not allowed to use this term anymore. But I’m not a loyal podcaster because I pick and choose episodes and I flip and flit and fly around. You know, I’m a podcast slut. AW:  People use podcasts like that! Now more they’re googling within podcasts. AS:  Yes, yes. Okay. AW: We’re not all sluts! AS:  True, that is true. So there is one thing I do want to recommend. So for podcasts, again, another company that we invested in at Ideaboost, it’s called the Podyssey. So it’s the Goodreads of podcasting. And so it’s a place where people who love podcasts can talk to each other, and you can share and recommend episodes and things like that. So you should be on Podyssey for sure. AW: Okay. I’m in! How can listeners connect with you? Can they email you or? AS:  They can definitely find me via email. So it’s [email protected]. AW: okay. Oh, we will link to that in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add about authenticity or communication and authenticity? AS:  You know, only that this is has been such a great conversation. I’m now really, really curious about all the other podcasts in the series and I can’t wait to listen to them. AW: Oh, that’s great. Thank you so much for your time. It was great to get to know you better.   THANKS for listening!   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]       The TalkAboutTalk weekly email blog is your opportunity to receive one concise email from me each week, highlighting knowledge & strategies that will help us become more effective communicators. SIGN UP NOW!: https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup                TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, co-worker, parent, partner and friend.              TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that enriches our relationships and enhances our career success by providing us with knowledge, strategies and confidence.”     The post #33 Communicating AUTHENTICITY with Ana Serrano appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How many emails do you have in your inbox? Need some tips on how to conquer your email inbox? You can increase your productivity and reduce your email anxiety by doing three things: (1.) making behavioral changes; (2.) employing technology hacks; and (3.) effectively managing our sent mail! The first thing to do is to redefine the role of email.  Email is not something to check off of your TO DO list. It is not an accomplishment.  Email is a tool.  Email is something that you can use to get the real work done. References & Links BOOKS “Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity” by David Allen – https://amzn.to/31KRfP2 The GTD Workbook – https://amzn.to/31HI02b “Unsubscribe: how to kill email anxiety, avoid distractions, and get real work done” by Jocelyn K Glei – https://amzn.to/2Qm4HYt “Predictably Irrational” by Dan Ariely – https://amzn.to/30dxJhi “Because, Internet: Understanding the new rules of language” by Gretchen McCulloch – https://amzn.to/2QkZqAo EMAIL HISTORY & STATISTICS Raymond Tomlinson (inventor) https://www.internethalloffame.org//official-biography-raymond-tomlinson https://www.radicati.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Email-Statistics-Report-2019-2023-Executive-Summary.pdf Statista: https://www.statista.com/statistics/911592/frequency-consumers-checking-work-emails-outside-work-hours/ eMarketer: https://www.emarketer.com/Article/Please-Dont-Unsubscribe-Why-Consumers-Email-Fatigue/1015219 LifeWire: https://www.lifewire.com/how-many-emails-are-sent-every-day-1171210 Expanded Ramblings: https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/email-statistics/ Adobe Consumer Email Survey: https://theblog.adobe.com/love-email-but-spreading-the-love-other-channels/ The NewYorker: “Was Email a Mistake?” https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/was-e-mail-a-mistake TIPS ON CONQUERING YOUR INBOX HBR: https://hbr.org/2009/05/how-to-keep-your-email-under-c.html HBR: https://hbr.org/2014/04/8-ways-not-to-manage-your-email-and-5-tactics-that-work https://hbr.org/2019/01/how-to-spend-way-less-time-on-email-every-day FastCompany: https://www.fastcompany.com/90379441/how-to-manage-email-so-that-it-doesnt-control-you Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/10/08/6-ways-to-be-more-productive/#23676df55605 Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnhall/2018/06/03/8-simple-tips-that-will-improve-the-way-you-use-email/#24d6b637115e Inc.: https://www.inc.com/david-finkel/12-email-tips-to-increase-your-productivity.html Getting Things Done: https://gettingthingsdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/GettingEmail.pdf Unpacked on Inbox Zero: https://unpacked.mailbutler.io/2019/01/09/gtd-email-inbox-zero-flowchart/ City A.M.: https://www.cityam.com/inbox-anxiety-how-regain-control-email/ TECHNOLOGY Canned Responses for Gmail & G-Suite: https://google.oit.ncsu.edu/core/gmail/canned-response/ Superhuman: https://superhuman.com/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/27/my-six-months-with-30-month-email-service-superhuman/ Spark: https://sparkmailapp.com/ Slack: https://slack.com/intl/en-ca/ https://techcrunch.com/2013/08/14/say-hello-to-slack-the-newest-enterprise-social-network-and-the-latest-effort-from-flickr-co-founder-stewart-butterfields-tiny-speck/ PODCASTS Tim Ferriss Interviews Drew Houston, co-founder and CEO of DropBox.: https://tim.blog/2018/08/29/the-tim-ferriss-show-transcripts-drew-houston/ Gretchen Rubin – Happiness guru & advocate of the one minute rule – https://GretchenRubin.com Talk About Talk Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup TRUST episode with Baron Manett – https://talkabouttalk.com/trust-with-per-se-brand-experience-president-baron-manett/ SOCIAL MEDIA episode with Andrew Jenkins – https://talkabouttalk.com/7-social-media-with-volterra-founder-andrew-jenkins/ Q&A episode: https://talkabouttalk.com/29/ Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/ Shownotes for all episodes – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe_section Andrea – [email protected]   This is your opportunity to receive one concise email from me each week, highlighting what I think is worth Talking About. My goal is to help us all become more effective communicators. https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup   Please connect with me.  YES, I will personally respond! Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]   One last thing, if you have a moment, please go to Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you use and rate this podcast.  It helps us a lot to get some traction in this wonderful podcast universe. https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/talkabouttalk/id1447267503?mt=2   Also, please subscribe to the free weekly Talk About Talk email blog. And no, I don’t think Siri knows how to do that yet. So just go to the https://TalkAboutTalk.com website and you can easily sign up there. You can also access all of the past blogs and podcasts. THANK YOU for listening! (and READING!) I’d love to hear from you. Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]   The TalkAboutTalk weekly email blog is your opportunity to receive one concise email from me each week, highlighting knowledge & strategies that will help us become more effective communicators. SIGN UP NOW!: https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup     TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better manager, colleague, parent, partner and friend.”     TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that enriches our relationships and enhances our career success by providing us with knowledge, strategies and confidence.”         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2211-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2211 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2211 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2211-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2211-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2211-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2211-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2211-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2211 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2211 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2211 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #32 HOW TO CONQUER YOUR EMAIL INBOX appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Giving negative feedback is challenging and stressful. You will learn the mindsets, do’s & don’ts, and frameworks to help you give negative feedback effectively. Be constructive. Don’t make it a surprise, don’t joke around, don’t threaten the person. Be empathetic (compliment in public, criticize in private), be objective and professional, and LISTEN. Make sure that the feedback is S.M.A.R.T.: Specific, Measurable, Action-oriented, Realistic and Timely. Avoid the “Poop Sandwich,” and try the Start-Continue-Stop framework.   References & Links BOOKS “FEEDBACK (and other dirty words): Why we fear it, how to fix it” by Tamra Chandler – https://amzn.to/2O4eHTk “HBR Guide to Delivering Effective feedback” Harvard Business School Press – https://amzn.to/307UzXX SOURCES “The Feedback Fallacy” – HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW – https://hbr.org/2019/03/the-feedback-fallacy “Seven Ways to Effective Feedback” – Grant Wiggins, FEEDBACK FOR LEARNING – http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/sept12/vol70/num01/Seven-Keys-to-Effective-Feedback.aspx “Why the Velvet Hammer is a better way to give constructive criticism” – FAST COMPANY – https://www.fastcompany.com/90319581/why-the-velvet-hammer-is-a-better-way-to-give-constructive-criticism “The Better Way to Deal with Criticism at Work” – GLOBE & MAIL – https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/careers/management/article-the-better-way-to-deal-with-criticism-at-work/ “How to give negative feedback more effectively” – FORBES – https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashiraprossack1/2018/08/31/how-to-give-negative-feedback-more-effectively/#4bbbeae44163 “Four New Ideas for Giving Feedback that get Positive Results” – FORBES – https://www.forbes.com/sites/amberjohnson-jimludema/2019/06/09/four-new-ideas-for-giving-feedback-that-gets-positive-results/#391f4520a73d “Why What You Say as a Leader Doesn’t Matter” – FORBES – https://www.forbes.com/sites/louisefron/2015/05/26/why-what-you-say-as-a-leader-does-not-matter/#132cd32f8cd4 “How to Use Negative Feedback to be More Successful” – FastCompany – https://www.fastcompany.com/40443349/this-is-how-to-use-negative-feedback-to-be-more-successful Bridgewater Associates: https://www.bridgewater.com/ Reports on its radical transparency in providing feedback: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/27/bridgewater-associates-ray-dalio-why-you-should-love-criticism.html https://www.businessinsider.com/bridgewater-ranked-employees-by-performance-2018-3 Talk About Talk Q&A episode: https://talkabouttalk.com/29/ Weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/ Shownotes for all episodes – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe_section Andrea – [email protected]     THANK YOU for listening! (and READING!)   I’d love to hear from you.   Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/talk_about_talk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Email: [email protected]     The TalkAboutTalk weekly email blog is your opportunity to receive one concise email from me each week, highlighting knowledge & strategies that will help us become more effective communicators. SIGN UP NOW!:   https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup   TalkAboutTalk CORE BELIEF: “When we communicate effectively, we can be a better friend, parent, partner and work colleague.”     TalkAboutTalk BRAND PROMISE: “TalkAboutTalk is the communication learning platform that enriches our relationships and enhances our career success by providing us with knowledge, strategies and confidence.”           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by TalkAboutTalk. @import url(https://www.talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/plugins/siteorigin-panels/css/front-flex.min.css); #pgc-2191-0-0 { width:100%;width:calc(100% - ( 0 * 30px ) ) } #pl-2191 .so-panel { margin-bottom:30px } #pl-2191 .so-panel:last-of-type { margin-bottom:0px } @media (max-width:870px){ #pg-2191-0.panel-no-style, #pg-2191-0.panel-has-style > .panel-row-style, #pg-2191-0 { -webkit-flex-direction:column;-ms-flex-direction:column;flex-direction:column } #pg-2191-0 > .panel-grid-cell , #pg-2191-0 > .panel-row-style > .panel-grid-cell { width:100%;margin-right:0 } #pl-2191 .panel-grid-cell { padding:0 } #pl-2191 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-empty { display:none } #pl-2191 .panel-grid .panel-grid-cell-mobile-last { margin-bottom:0px } } The post #31 HOW TO GIVE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki appeared first on Talk About Talk.