In the Sandbox

The episode features Amy Aspey, founding pastor of Short North Church in Columbus, Ohio, discussing how the church plant emerged from a 100-year-old United Methodist congregation in the arts district near Ohio State that voted by over 80% to close and give its resources to a new, inclusive future. As a United Methodist deacon, Aspey describes saying no twice before accepting a nontraditional lead role centered on bridging church and world through compassion, justice, and service. She outlines Short North’s values—affirming inclusion, neighborhood partnership, story sharing (“everyone has a sacred story”), transparency, and consistent alignment of decisions with values—and explains discerning faithful risk through communal sense of call. She shares a pivot in the Yoga+Worship (“Yo Wo”) ministry from weekly to monthly, describes sustaining the community through belonging and participation, notes a Lilly Grant–funded sabbatical without an interim, and highlights launching an affirming campus ministry, SNC at OSU. 00:00 Meet Amy 02:00 Why Short North Started 03:37 Listening to the Neighborhood 05:29 Closing to Begin Again 08:18 Deacon to Lead Pastor 11:49 Values That Guide 15:57 Risk Versus Reckless 19:32 Pivoting Yo Wo 25:15 Fine Tuning the Pace 25:56 Belonging Sustains Community 27:27 Participation Over Perfection 29:45 Launching the OSU Campus 33:05 Advice for Would Be Planters 35:43 Next Risk Unhoused Neighbors 36:56 Lightning Round Favorites 40:24 Where to Find Amy 40:49 Prayer and Closing

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview Jeremy Steele, creator of Skeptic Pastor on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, about how an experiment to study church use of TikTok unexpectedly grew into a 260–270K follower audience and a smaller intentional community called “Not Church.” Steele, a self-described deep skeptic and pastor, avoids institutional church language because many members have religious trauma, and he focuses on relational pastoral engagement, progressive takes on biblical texts, exposing corruption, and addressing current issues of injustice. He discusses authenticity, research-heavy content production, making retraction videos, being doxxed, and building a creator-economy “pay for what you get” model that avoids donations and includes free options, supported initially by a declining grant. He argues digital space is full, real ministry, offers cohorts and coaching to help others launch, then ends with a lightning round and a closing prayer. 00:00 Meet Skeptic Pastor 01:58 Accidental TikTok Growth 04:32 Not Church Community 06:31 Authenticity And Safety 09:07 Pastor Discernment Filter 13:40 Entrepreneurship Value 17:36 Risks And Funding Model 21:40 Innovation Means Failing 24:00 Unglamorous Content Grind 27:18 Retractions and Credibility 28:34 Deep Skeptic Mindset 30:14 Starting Digital Community 31:05 Online Ministry Is Real 35:31 Distance Ministry Argument 36:08 What Audience Should Gain 38:04 Lightning Round Fun 43:55 Prayer and Sendoff

Cristin Cooper, founder of Maryland-based social enterprise Coop’s Soups and a licensed local pastor, shares how loneliness in 2018–2019 led her to practice hospitality by sharing soup with neighbors and how it evolved into a missional business. She explains designing the company to reflect community-building by selling at a farmers market, sourcing from local farmers, labeling jars with “Share me” and conversation starters, and making and donating soup to a food bank while eating together to embody socioeconomic belonging. Cristin describes inviting people into the kitchen, launching monthly soup-making gatherings, maintaining a “pace of grace” by going slow and deep to build trust, and taking risks like quitting her job, selling publicly, and running gatherings still in draft form. She discusses centering her call amid denominational expectations, grounding in Luke 10, exploring bread and a community garden, possible franchising, recipe choices, and advising leaders that “YouTube is your friend.” 00:00 Welcome to Coop Soups 02:01 Loneliness to Table 03:48 Soup Becomes Enterprise 04:53 Designing Community Values 07:25 Cooking Together Belonging 09:26 Pace of Grace Leadership 11:58 Risks and Leap of Faith 17:30 Staying Centered in Calling 22:57 When Soup Excludes Someone 26:09 Bread Team Expansion 28:07 Garden Team Vision 29:29 Scaling and Franchising Ideas 31:36 Choosing New Soup Recipes 36:44 Risk Taking With YouTube 39:39 Lightning Round Fun 44:16 Where to Find Coop Soups 44:46 Closing Prayer and Sendoff

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview Derrick Scott III, Associate Director of Learning and Innovation at Wesleyan Impact Partners, about “entrepreneurship” in ministry as faithfulness—cultivating what’s been placed in our hands, experimenting, and adapting to changing needs. Derrick describes leading in permission-giving spaces that allow trial-and-error learning and argues campus ministry must follow student rhythms (e.g., moving weekly gatherings, midnight Bible study) while helping churches decenter established patterns to reach young adults. He shares practices for staying healthy amid constant change, emphasizing self-care so he can focus on those he serves and measure success by whether people feel seen. Derrick advises churches to invest real resources in younger generations, admit current models are often designed for boomers, and give younger people meaningful inheritance and authority. He discusses generational theory (Gen Z amid chaos; Gen Alpha rebuilding) and calls for equipping and passing the mic to younger leaders. 00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro 02:21 Faithful Entrepreneurship 05:20 Pivoting With Permission 07:56 Campus Ministry Rhythms 15:19 Staying Healthy in Change 20:07 Coaching Churches for Gen Z 26:17 Unlocking Lay Leadership 28:45 Empowering the Laity 30:43 Gen Alpha and Church Futures 35:07 Gen Z as Artist Leaders 38:39 Passing the Mic Well 41:06 Mentoring Young Preachers 42:31 Lightning Round Fun 48:35 Where to Find Derrick 50:34 Prayer and Sendoff

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview leadership consultant Kathi McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck about their partnership, formed after an Ashoka gathering and later co-leading classes for the Changemaker initiative. Drawing on their book and Walter Brueggemann, they define “empire” as a coercive, control-oriented pyramid culture that leaders and organizations internalize and revert to under stress. They discuss markers of getting “sucked into empire,” including making leaders the hub, prioritizing metrics over people, and hustle culture’s paradox of productivity, which dehumanizes teams and drives burnout. Sabbath is presented as an antidote that redistributes agency and trust, with Elan sharing how a serious accident and recovery led him to keep Shabbat. They explore risks of “leaving Egypt” (loss of stability), the myth of scarcity, grief as a clarifier of values, and leadership that shares power by prioritizing wellbeing over output. 00:00 Meet the Guests 02:00 How They Connected 06:07 Defining Empire 08:53 Signs of Empire Thinking 11:28 Hustle Culture Trap 14:23 Sabbath as Antidote 17:13 Shabbat Saved My Life 20:52 Risk of Leaving Egypt 23:32 Scarcity Mindset vs Faith 26:35 Grief in Change 29:02 Grief Fuels Creation 29:54 Grieving Well Matters 31:21 From Me to We 32:19 You Are the System 36:18 Leader Productivity Trap 39:01 Crossing the Jordan Signs 40:36 Footsteps in the Sand 43:30 Lightning Round Fun 49:06 Where to Find Them 50:53 Closing Prayer and Farewell

What is the In the Sandbox podcast, Season 3 all about? In today's Season 3 launch episode of the In the Sandbox podcast, Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups sit down and discuss the incredible guests they had the opportunity to chat with on the topic of entrepreneurship and ministry, and how the two are more intertwined than we traditionally might think. They also share about the new, upcoming Hub4Innovation book entitled Dream, Dare, Disrupt, where they are providing applicable and innovative systems, strategies, and tools that ministry leaders can use to have more impact on their rapidly changing communities. Chapters: 00:00 - In the Sandbox Season 3 Launch 07:17 - Rabbi Elan Babchuck & Kathi McShane 09:45 - Derrick Scott III 11:51 - Cristin Cooper 14:34 - Jeremy Steele 16:10 - Amy Aspey 18:39 - Matt Miofsky 20:37 - Benj Miller 23:02 - Bishop Tom Berlin 25:47 - Lightening Round 34:02 - Hub4Innovation's Debut Book

Navigating Adaptive Leadership and Spiritual Resilience with Bishop Delores Williamston In this engaging episode of 'In the Sandbox,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups welcome Bishop Delores Williamston, the Bishop of the Louisiana Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church. Bishop Williamston shares her journey as a military veteran, a clergy leader, and a grandmother, discussing her adaptive leadership style and the challenges faced by the church during turbulent times. She emphasizes the importance of balancing tradition with innovation, finding joy despite adversity, and the role of the Holy Spirit in ministry. The conversation is enriched by Bishop Williamston's reflections on her African American church upbringing and her methods of maintaining personal resilience, including Sabbath rest and hobbies. Together, they explore what it means to lead with faith, adapt to changing contexts, and inspire community engagement. The episode concludes with practical advice for clergy and laity on sustaining joy and optimism in their ministries. 00:00 Welcome to In the Sandbox 00:41 Introducing Bishop Delores Williamston 02:32 Leadership and Adaptive Ministry 03:52 Challenges and Generational Gaps in Ministry 06:22 Take Up Your Mat and Walk 10:41 Finding Rest and Sabbath 14:06 Dealing with Adversity 18:39 Joy and Optimism in Ministry 23:46 Humor and Improvisation in Ministry 26:00 Authenticity in Faith and Improvisation 26:49 The Role of the Holy Spirit in the United Methodist Church 27:22 Formation in the Black Church 28:09 The Power of Songs in the Black Church 29:30 Personal Journey and the Influence of the Black Church 35:40 Awakenings in the Church 39:22 Community Engagement and Music Education 44:21 Rapid-Fire Questions with Bishop Williamston 49:41 Closing Remarks and Prayer Find Bishop Williamston: Website: https://www.la-umc.org/about-our-bishop About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org Soundcloud: Soundcloud.com/hub4innovation

In the Sandbox with Reverend Adam Hamilton: Adaptive Leadership and Evolving Ministry In this episode of 'In the Sandbox where Creativity and Utility Meet,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups have an inspiring conversation with Reverend Adam Hamilton, the founding pastor of Church of the Resurrection in Leewood, Kansas. Adam, a best-selling author and influential leader in modern United Methodism, discusses the nuances and challenges of adaptive leadership, the importance of embracing change, and reflecting on the wisdom gained through his years in ministry. The discussion touches on the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic, the challenge of balancing care with personal limits, and his hopes for the future of church leadership. Adam also reflects on maintaining authentic connections with his congregation, even amid criticism, and emphasizes the significance of humility and adaptability in effective leadership. The episode concludes with a 'hot seat' segment where Adam answers rapid-fire questions about his life outside ministry, providing a personal touch to an insightful conversation. 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 01:22 Understanding Adaptive Leadership 03:57 Personal Growth and Leadership Wisdom 07:20 Navigating Change and Challenges 11:41 Caring for the Congregation 19:56 Handling Difficult Decisions 30:21 Handling Criticism as a Leader 30:59 Historical Examples of Leadership Challenges 32:20 Personal Experiences with Criticism 34:59 Dealing with Disappointment and Guilt 38:42 Adapting to New Realities in Ministry 45:05 The Role of Technology in Modern Ministry 47:06 Fun and Personal Insights 53:19 Closing Thoughts and Resources Find Reverend Adam Hamilton: IG: @revadamhamilton X: @RevAdamHamilton Website: https://resurrection.church/staff/ About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Adaptive Leadership and Authentic Ministry with Rev. Dr. James Howell In this episode of 'In the Sandbox,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups welcome Rev. Dr. James Howell, senior pastor of Myers Park United Methodist Church, to discuss leadership, wisdom, and his experiences. Dr. Howell shares insights from his ministry journey, touching on the challenges of adaptive leadership, the importance of authenticity, and building trust within a community. They explore themes of awe, travel, and the enduring practices of Christian faith. Rev. Howell highlights his latest book 'Everywhere is Jerusalem' and reflects on his perspective towards ministerial mistakes, adaptive leadership, and the power of love and vulnerability in ministry. 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 01:44 Leadership in the Trenches 03:16 Building Trust and Personal Capital 10:51 Navigating Criticism and Mistakes 14:16 The Importance of Friendship in Ministry 20:09 Balancing Tradition and Innovation 25:13 Daily Practices for Effective Leadership 26:23 The Importance of Discipline 26:59 The Role of Reading in Clergy 27:13 Theological Reflections on Leadership 29:37 Travel and Its Impact 35:13 Experiencing Awe and Wonder 40:33 Rapid Fire Questions 47:51 Final Thoughts and Farewell About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Summary In this episode of 'In the Sandbox', hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups engage with pastor and author Mark Feldmeir, exploring themes of leadership, faith, and community in a rapidly changing world. Mark discusses his unique leadership approach in a diverse congregation, the impact of the pandemic on church dynamics, and the importance of clarity in values. He shares insights on progressive theological conversations, the role of prayer, and the challenges of leading a large church. The conversation also touches on personal growth practices and innovative outreach initiatives, culminating in lighthearted questions that reveal Mark's personality and passions. Takeaways - Mark Feldmeir emphasizes the importance of clarity in leadership. - Navigating diverse congregational beliefs requires vulnerability and openness. - Post-pandemic, congregations have experienced natural sorting based on values. - Engaging in progressive conversations can attract like-minded individuals. - Rethinking traditional theological constructs can lead to deeper understanding. - Prayer can be redefined in a relational context with God. - Proactive leadership is more effective than reactive responses to issues. - Core values of a church should guide its community practices. - Innovative outreach can strengthen community ties and engagement. - Personal growth practices are essential for effective leadership. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction to the Conversation 01:03 - Exploring Leadership in a Diverse Context 04:30 - Navigating Change Post-Pandemic 07:51 - Engaging in Progressive Conversations 10:17 - Rethinking Prayer and Theological Constructs 13:11 - Leadership in a Large Church 16:53 - Proactive vs. Reactive Leadership 19:20 - Core Values and Community Practices 22:45 - Innovative Outreach and Community Engagement 23:15 - Learning from Mistakes in Leadership 28:07 - Personal Practices for Growth 31:30 - Looking Ahead: Future Initiatives 34:29 - Fun and Lighthearted Questions 39:35 - Closing Thoughts and Prayer Find [GUEST]: IG: https://www.instagram.com/markfeldmeir/ Website: https://www.markfeldmeir.com/ About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Navigating Theological Education and Inclusive Leadership with Rev. April Casperson In this episode of 'In the Sandbox,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups welcome Reverend April Casperson, an ordained deacon in the West Ohio Conference of the United Methodist Church and Director of Enrollment Management at the Methodist Theological School in Ohio (MTSO). They discuss the evolving landscape of theological education, particularly the shift to high-flex and online models in response to the pandemic, and the importance of accessibility and inclusive leadership. April shares insights on the challenges faced by seminary students, the role of technology, and her passion for fostering diverse and future-ready faith leaders. The episode also touches on the intersection of ecology and theology at MTSO, and the significance of creating supportive environments for students of all ages and backgrounds. The conversation concludes with a fun rapid-fire round and a prayer for April's continued success and impact. 00:00 Welcome to In the Sandbox 00:46 Introducing Reverend April Casperson 01:43 The Evolution of Theological Education 02:47 High Flex Learning at MTSO 04:24 Challenges and Opportunities in Online Education 10:14 Commitment to Ecological Sustainability 13:24 Balancing Accessibility and Academic Rigor 22:56 Supporting Diverse Leaders in the Church 25:04 The Role of Deacons in Modern Ministry 28:07 Discussing Seminary Choices 28:31 Questions for Prospective Students 30:22 Encouraging Older Students 34:07 Challenges in Ministry 37:23 Aha Moments at MTSO 39:59 Rapid Fire Questions 44:42 Conclusion and Farewell Find April: Website: https://www.abingdonpress.com/authors/april_casperson/ About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Adaptive Leadership and Spiritual Resilience with Bishop Hee-Soo Jung In this episode of 'In the Sandbox where Creativity and Utility Meet,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups sit down with Bishop Hee-Soo Jung, Episcopal leader of the West and East Ohio Conferences of the United Methodist Church. They discuss adaptive leadership amidst challenges, the significance of faith and resilience, and Bishop Jung's journey from South Korea to leading in Ohio. Bishop Jung shares personal anecdotes about his spiritual practices, community engagement, and vision for the church. The episode also delves into his love for nature, classical music, and his treasured walks on the Camino de Santiago. Listeners will gain insights on embracing change, maintaining joy, and finding clarity through faith. 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:47 Meet Bishop Hee-Soo Jung 01:59 Embracing Adaptive Leadership 04:46 The Role of the Holy Spirit 06:57 Facing Challenges with Faith 11:13 Merging Ohio Conferences 17:58 Spiritual Practices for Leadership 24:20 Personal Connection and Presence 25:30 Navigating Leadership and Vulnerability 26:04 Embracing Community Wisdom 26:44 Clarity Over Certainty in Faith 29:23 The Call to Ministry 30:39 Rejecting Violence and Dominance 32:50 Cultural Reflections and Anti-Racism 34:13 Fun and Personal Questions 34:39 Cherished Childhood Memories 37:31 Musical Preferences and Travel 41:37 Heart Over Head in Decision Making 43:41 Final Thoughts and Prayer About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Adaptive Leadership and Fresh Expressions: A Conversation with Dan Jackson In this episode of 'In the Sandbox where Creativity and Utility Meet,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview His Holiness, Dan Jackson. The discussion covers Dan Jackson's extensive leadership experience, particularly in the Florida Annual Conference where he served as the district superintendent and was instrumental in developing hundreds of fresh expressions. They delve into adaptive leadership, the importance of evaluating and evolving church programs, and innovative funding strategies for new church starts. Dan also shares personal anecdotes from his career, his transition to retirement, and his involvement in leadership development. The episode concludes with a fun lightning round and a prayer. 00:00 Welcome to In the Sandbox 00:42 Introducing Dan Jackson 01:10 Dan's Journey and Leadership 02:23 Adapting to Change 02:49 Challenges During COVID-19 04:37 Fresh Expressions in Florida 07:22 Evaluating Church Programs 14:25 New Church Development Strategies 20:15 Introduction to mLab and Women Pastors 21:19 Restructuring Church Financing in Florida 23:00 Challenges and Successes in Church Funding 24:24 Adaptive Leadership and Fresh Expressions 26:53 The Impact of Dinner Churches 29:10 Collaboration and Innovation in Ministry 30:19 Retirement and Personal Reflections 33:21 Lightning Round: Fun and Personal Questions 36:33 Conclusion and Contact Information Find Rev. Dan Jackson: Website: [email protected] About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

In this episode of 'In the Sandbox where Creativity and Utility Meet,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups engage in a deep, insightful conversation with Reverend Lisa Yebuah, the dynamic lead pastor of the Southeast Raleigh Table. They explore topics ranging from adaptive leadership during the pandemic, collective discernment, and the significance of unlearning hierarchical church models. Reverend Lisa shares her experiences and insights on trusting one's instincts, the importance of listening to the still small voice of God, and how focusing on black church traditions enriches their predominantly white congregation. She delves into the challenges and rewards of leading a faith community that is deeply collaborative and body-centric. Reverend Lisa also talks about the necessity of addressing ideologies within the church, rather than just differing opinions, and the importance of creating new ways of showing up in ministry. The episode concludes with thoughtful reflections on the need for grace, flexibility, and the continuous unlearning and relearning required in contemporary pastoral leadership. 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 01:38 Lisa Yebuah's Journey and Adaptive Leadership 05:22 Collective Discernment and Community Dynamics 09:23 Embracing Humanity and Overcoming Constructs 15:16 Navigating Leadership and Community Challenges 23:13 The Role of Trust and Authority in Ministry 27:21 Guiding Principles and Community Engagement 30:37 The Role of a Pastor: Inviting vs. Instructing 32:59 The Power of Collective Faith 36:33 Navigating Leadership and Ideologies 39:53 Challenges and Masks of Tomorrow's Church 49:51 Hot Seat Questions: Fun and Personal Insights 54:59 Final Thoughts and Blessings Find Lisa: IG: https://www.instagram.com/petite_pastor/ Website: https://seraleightable.org/southeast-raleigh-table-home/about-us/ About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Adaptive Leadership and Evolving Church with Dr. Emanuel Cleaver III In this episode of 'In the Sandbox,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups sit down with Dr. Emanuel Cleaver III, the senior pastor of St. James United Methodist Church in Kansas City. Dr. Cleaver discusses the challenges and strategies of adaptive leadership in the modern socio-political landscape, the decline in church attendance, and the importance of evolving worship practices. He emphasizes the need for evaluating and changing traditional practices, including Sunday school, to meet current needs. Dr. Cleaver also touches on the role of the church in social activism and community involvement, particularly in addressing local injustices. He shares his personal practices for maintaining peace and balance, including a strict observance of the Sabbath and participation in a supportive pastoral group. The episode concludes with a light-hearted lightning round and a prayer for continued guidance and support for Dr. Cleaver's mission. 00:00 Introduction to the Sandbox Podcast 00:40 Meet Dr. Emanuel Cleaver III 01:26 Challenges of Modern Church Leadership 03:30 Adapting Church Practices for the Future 06:05 The Role of Sunday School in Modern Times 10:00 Evolving Church Models and Community Engagement 13:50 Hybrid Worship and Online Community 17:41 Social Activism and Community Needs 20:53 Future Challenges and Adaptive Leadership 24:15 Police Department Control in Kansas City 26:34 Reflecting on Historical Practices 27:11 Reimagining Church Leadership 28:09 Unlearning Traditional Christianity 29:42 The Role of Belief and Action in Faith 33:45 Maintaining Peace and Support as a Pastor 35:39 The Importance of Sabbath 39:00 Fun and Lighthearted Questions 43:39 Closing Thoughts and Prayer Find Dr. Emanuel Cleaver: Website: https://www.ecleaver3.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PastorECIII Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cleaveriii/ X: https://x.com/drec3 About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question, “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Navigating Adaptive Leadership with Reverend Duane Anders In this episode of 'In the Sandbox,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups are joined by Reverend Duane Anders from the Cathedral of the Rockies. They explore Duane's leadership journey, his unapologetic vocal stance on the gospel and inclusion, and his innovative approaches within the church. Duane recounts experiences from his trip to Palestine, his adaptive leadership during the pandemic, and the collaborative initiatives between churches. The episode touches on profound topics including racial tensions, politics, and finding common ground despite differences. A light-hearted speed round at the end adds a bit of fun and personal insight into Duane's character. 00:00 Introduction and Welcome 00:41 Meet Reverend Duane Anders 01:07 Duane's Journey and Achievements 01:47 Creating Inclusive Spaces 04:24 Adaptive Leadership in Action 05:08 Navigating the Pandemic 08:35 Innovative Worship Services 10:50 Challenges and Pivots 14:12 Prophetic Leadership and Social Issues 14:44 Solidarity Trip to Palestine 19:47 Surviving and Thriving Amidst Adversity 20:20 The Importance of Being Informed 20:37 Loving Your Enemy and Not Becoming Them 21:23 Navigating Controversial Topics in Congregations 22:12 Collaborative Leadership and Adaptive Strategies 26:14 Embracing Tension and Cognitive Dissonance 29:29 Inviting People into the Messiness 33:59 Speed Round: Fun and Lighthearted Questions 37:19 Final Thoughts and Prayer Find Duane: X: @DuaneAnders Website: cathedraloftherockies.org About Hub4Innovation: The Hub4Innovation is a place where leaders are given permission to experiment, innovate, and take bold steps towards the future of the church. We encourage leaders to break through barriers, make risky moves, and play with the question: “What if?” Join Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups, thought leaders and spiritual movers, on the “In the Sandbox” podcast, where they are interviewing leaders of the faith, and exploring bold and innovative new ways to lead and make big impact on our communities. Find us on: Instagram: @hub4innovation Website: hub4innovation.org

Episode Summary In this powerful Season 2 premiere of In the Sandbox, Matt and Rachel sit down with Rev. Magrey deVega to explore the challenges and beauty of adaptive leadership in uncertain times. From navigating political tensions to leading through multiple congregational identities, Magrey shares insights on how to remain grounded in faith, practice non-anxious leadership, and reclaim beauty as an act of defiance in the face of fear and uncertainty. Through laughter, deep reflection, and unexpected moments (including a surprise Rickroll and a near-miss bathroom disaster), this episode is filled with wisdom, humor, and practical takeaways for leaders and everyday disciples alike. Key Takeaways: 🔹 Four Congregations in One: How leadership evolves in shifting seasons 🔹 The Control Test: What you can actually control in uncertain times 🔹 Prayer as a Leadership Anchor: Magrey’s evolving pre-sermon prayers 🔹 Adaptive vs. Technical Leadership: Knowing when a situation requires deep transformation rather than a quick fix 🔹 The Role of Beauty and Music in Leadership: The incredible story of a symphony composed in a Nazi prison camp 🔹 The Danger of Toxic Positivity: Sitting with grief and lament instead of rushing to "fix" things Memorable Quotes: 🗣️ “Spiritual practices are not just about doing—they are a way of being.” 🗣️ “Sometimes the most faithful act of leadership is just sitting with people in silence.” 🗣️ “Beauty is an act of defiance in the face of oppression.” Resources & Mentions: 🎵 Quartet for the End of Time – Composed by Olivier Messiaen in a Nazi prison camp 📖 Canoeing the Mountains by Tod Bolsinger – Leadership in uncharted territory 📖 The Bible Year – A church-wide practice during COVID Fun Segment: Rapid Fire Questions 🔥 If Magrey’s preaching style were a fast food restaurant, it would be Culver’s—accessible yet surprisingly substantial. 🔥 His walk-up song for preaching? Born to Run by Bruce Springsteen. 🔥 His ultimate movie sermon illustration? Empire Strikes Back—because everyone has to confront their fears to discover their true self. 🔗 Find Magrey Online: Hyde Park UMC: HydeParkUMC.org Facebook: @MagreydeVega Instagram: @MagreydeVega BlueSky: @MagreydeVega 🎧 Listen & Subscribe: In the Sandbox is available on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts!

Episode Description: In this week’s episode of In the Sandbox, Matt Rall and Rachel Billups welcome the dynamic duo behind The Bearded Theologians, Matt Franks and Zach Bechtold. It's a conversation that blends deep theological reflection with humor, friendship, and a bit of nerddom. From Xbox theology to reclaiming lost words of faith, this crossover episode is packed with inspiration and laughs. Discover the story of how two pastors turned a typhoon-filled mission trip into a nine-year podcasting adventure. They share their journey of exploring faith, fostering creativity, and creating safe spaces for theological conversations. Whether you're here for their insights on rhythm and rest or just to find out why Sk8er Boi is the ultimate karaoke choice, there's something for everyone. Grab your shovel and join us in the sandbox as dreams take flight! What You’ll Hear: Origins of The Bearded Theologians: From Facebook banter to the Philippines, how Matt and Zach started their podcasting journey. The Power of Friendship: How their bond fuels creativity and theological exploration. Reclaiming Words: A thoughtful discussion on rescuing and redefining hijacked Christian terms like evangelism. Finding God in the Ordinary: How sharing where they see God at work brings new life to their conversations. Balancing Hustle and Rest: Insights on the spiritual discipline of taking a step back. Speed Round Fun: Hot dogs or tacos? And yes, someone Googled “How tall is Big Bird.” Key Quotes: “Creativity isn’t born in the hustle—it’s born in rest.” “Connectionalism works when it’s rooted in relationship.” “We want to show what healthy theological conversations look like—unscripted, real, and full of love.” Resources and Links: The Bearded Theologians: Website | Instagram | Facebook Hub for Innovation: Website | Email Next Steps: Subscribe to In the Sandbox for more creative conversations. Follow The Bearded Theologians for their weekly episodes and insights. Share this episode with a friend who needs a little faith and fun in their day.

In the sandbox Special Crossover Episode with Make it Happen by Hub4Innovation

Episode Title: Cultivating Curiosity in Communication with Todd Rossnagle Hosts: Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups Guest: Todd Rossnagel, Chairman of UMAC, Director of Communications for Louisiana, and Wilco Enthusiast Episode Overview: In this engaging episode of In The Sandbox, hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups welcome Todd Rossnagle, a leading voice in church communications. Todd shares his journey from traditional communication methods to innovative approaches, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and storytelling. Key Topics Discussed: Introduction to Todd Rossnagle: Background: Todd's extensive experience in church communications. Personal Tidbits: His passion for Wilco and his unique approach to communication. Embracing Curiosity in Communication: Todd discusses the importance of questioning the status quo and finding innovative ways to communicate. Example: Transition from printed newsletters to digital communications. Navigating Change and Innovation: Overcoming resistance to change within a cultural and technological context. Practical advice on shifting from traditional methods to modern, effective communication strategies. Storytelling in Communication: The power of storytelling in engaging audiences. Real-life examples of impactful stories in church communications. Effective Communication Tools and Strategies: The importance of using multiple tools and channels for communication. Personal anecdotes on how Todd determines the best medium for different stories. Balancing Technology with Traditional Methods: The value of handwritten notes in the digital age. Combining old-school and modern methods for maximum impact. Curiosity Beyond Church Work: Todd shares how he maintains curiosity in his personal life, including his love for photography and music. Fun Segment: Rapid Fire Questions Todd's favorite hobbies and pastimes. Dream gadget and ideal coffee companion. Wilco songs he’d take to a desert island. The actor he’d choose to play him in a movie. Takeaways: The importance of curiosity in both personal and professional communication. Practical tips for church leaders on how to innovate their communication strategies. Insights on balancing multiple communication tools to reach a diverse audience effectively. Links & Resources: Louisiana Conference of the United Methodist Church Louisiana Now Podcast Shoving Wilco Podcast Contact: Email: [email protected] Website: Hub4Innovation.org Thank you for listening to In The Sandbox. Join us next time for more conversations where creativity and utility meet. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.

The Power of Curiosity: A Conversation with Reverend DeAndre Johnson In this episode of 'In the Sandbox,' hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups invite Reverend DeAndre Johnson from Memorial Drive United Methodist Church to explore the profound beauty of curiosity and its role in faith, worship, and the experience of God. DeAndre shares his journey, rooted in various Christian traditions, and discusses how curiosity can lead to transformative spiritual experiences. The conversation touches on how different generations approach faith, the role of the Holy Spirit, and the importance of humility and collaboration in cultivating a meaningful religious life. The episode also includes light-hearted moments and personal insights, revealing DeAndre's musical inspirations and his thoughts on the future of the church. 00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview 00:47 DeAndre Johnson's Musical and Worship Journey 02:11 The Role of Curiosity in Worship 04:27 DeAndre's Spiritual Background and Influences 08:47 Sharing Curiosity with the Congregation 20:18 Intergenerational Curiosity in the Church 24:23 Curiosity and the Future of the Church 33:55 Fun and Personal Questions 40:06 Conclusion and Contact Information

Join us this week as we talk with Lisa Greenwood, President of Wesleyan Impact Partners, who dedicates her time and calling to developing leaders for the church and beyond!

Join us this week as we sit down with Jason Moore, one of the leading voices informing the Church and AI.

What is In the Sandbox? How do we move from curiosity to innovation? Grab your shovel and join us in the sandbox for our very first episode!

Join us this week as we talk to Sabrina Short, entrepreneur, visionary, and leader!

Join us as we welcome Dr. Ashley Boggart and Chris Heckert in the sandbox!

In this episode we interview Pastor Joe Kim from Seattle, who has an interesting take on curiosity!