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too. NameSpace.so. Well, it's been far too long but finally Brett Cannon is back on changelog and friends. Thanks for having me back guys. John Wick and Doon and...
We're just not talking about the three though. We're skipping that. We're skipping that. Maybe even a little bit of indoor. Yeah, actually watch the end or specifically to come back on for I think backstage before you stop doing it. We're not doing that at all now. But I'll mention that
I've had the pleasure since the holiday break. Some of December, January, and then obviously we're here in February now. My son, my oldest son, has gotten into Star Wars. And so we've watched all nine of the main movie shows, the main movie. And then now what order did you do?
Well, chronological. So this is a really interesting phenomenon. I think that was a really phenomenal. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just a luxury. Is that we grew up in an era
where we had to watch them out of order. And so we kind of watched episodes four, five, and six with a lot of context missing and a lot of mystery. But if you watch them in chronological order, you watch four, five, and six with all that context and all that mystery ruined essentially. Which is kind of a sad thing. But it's kind of cool in a way to appreciate the watching from two different angles. We watched them chronologically. We knew that spoiler alert, okay, it's on the horn,
that Anakin is Darth Vader. Okay, if you don't know right now then what rock? Okay, what rock. But you know, you kind of didn't really know. But there was mention of Anakin Skywalker a couple times in episodes four, five, and six that we never really probably pinned back to a person that mattered in the story, although they were mentioned because we didn't know that Anakin was Darth Vader. Unless maybe you were like a super crazy critic then you just knew this stuff. But
anyways, we've watched them and now we're watching Rogue One, which I believe is the best. The best. Yeah, the best Star Wars movie of all time is the best. Wow. Awesome. Awesome. Not the best. Yeah, I'll say it's awesome, but not the best.
Maybe the best of the modern era. Well, okay, let me say where I'm saying it's best from storyline, maybe not so much, but visually. Wow. Such a cinematography. Like cinematography.
Yeah, the director of photography was amazing. The detail in the things we didn't have detail in like the Death Star. So much detail. Like the detail in the ship, the detail in the world is in the land, like so much detail. That's why I think it's the best. And it has the,
I would say the beginning of the cinematic era, like the certain look that it has, that's what I mean by the best. And so that's one kind of kind of not so much the storyline itself, but those details in my opinion, elevated above a lot of them for me. So this brings up a big topic, which is the order that you show your kids the movies in because the surname parents and Star Wars nerds have been arguing, debating like what's the best order. I chose order of release. For the reason for the reason of that's the order that I experienced them in. So I'm gonna
let you experience them in order of release. At the time that my kids were first watching them, the sequel trilogy wasn't out yet. So it was 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3. I had no to about machete order, which right? You just mentioned machete orders. You must be all about this. The machete order is
like even more intentional than that. Do you know the order that that is and why? Yeah. So just for everyone else, because it has been a little else that's been on, I've become a parent since my last appearance. And so I've been thinking about this because getting ready for that day. Our little one, they're Star Wars enough that they recognize the
Imperial March and go Star Wars, Star Wars. So got them down. Okay, that's a good start. Yeah. Machete order is doing one, two, skip over three, four, five, go back to go back and do three, and then jump to sex. Basically, it's let you lead up, see kind of how things start. Hide the show
on three, right? That you kind of go, okay, something happened, right? And then oh, my big reveal, and then we'll go plug, fill the hole, and now you get to live that and then okay, we'll finish that start. Now this was all before I or to the third trilogy, right? So 789 is not a part of it.
So I haven't decided quite how I wanted this. I mean, one of the reasons I'm interested about Machete is because Phantom Menace was very much made for children. And so it's going to be age-appropriate sooner than episode four, which helps me at least kind of, sounds weird to say, that's controlled and narrative so that our little one can watch as soon as I want things are ready to watch and not be at a friend's house and have it kind of shown to them without me being there to experience it. Because as a big Star Wars nerd, I want to be the one that sits there with them on the sofa, watch these films, watch their eyes, watch to have a conversation and really be part of that, versus some kid on the playground going, oh yeah, have you seen it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, and just like, right. So yeah, that's my shady order and I haven't quite decided if I'm going to
do it or do like Adam did and just do chronological in terms of timeline. But I've got some time. I mean, are the ones not even two yet? So I'm just planning it out of time. Must plan ahead though, right? I mean, the fact that you're even thinking about it, podcasting
about it shows your great parents. I mean, congratulations. They're really taking care of the important stuff, you know? Oh yeah, they already miss Messet and Fey Yoda is groggo. So is that the right?
What do I'm having? I'm looking at, I did a quick Google curse research, Mercedes movie Star Wars and I got back. It could be four five one two three. What's missing even two? I think one is skip. Yeah, like one isn't in the list. So it's four,
five, two, three, six. Oh right. I remember they skipped one because they thought it was so bad. It's good for kids. Like we might not appreciate it and it had a lot of flack. And I know actually,
apparently, generationally, the kids who grew up with one, two and three actually have way more appreciation for that trilogy versus the four five six trilogy that we all grew up with. That's right. Today ourselves. So who is this person that made this up though? I mean, it says Hilton argued who's Hilton? I'm trying to catch up to these details.
Personally on the internet, I think actually right down to that I have parent brain. So memory is not so great anymore. But yeah, I think it was like four, five, two, three, six to start original trilogy go. There's a shock and go back fill the history of it and continue on without. Yeah. That's right. Hey, I'm down for a rewatch. So I mean, at this point, let me just expose
myself here. Okay, right here on the air. My diaphragm movie fans are in love this. I had to go and re order all these things in 4k because you know the kind of theater I have, right? And so I watched it on Disney Plus, which is like, it's okay. If you're a if you're an audio file movie guy like I am,
I just felt like I was just taking a bath in your water or something like that. I just didn't feel good about my life. Why shouldn't it be a Disney Plus? Okay. So here's a real quick question. What
version of last Jedi do you have? Do you have the Dolby Vision version or the later version that dropped it only has HDR 10? Oh, tell you. I think I'm a second because that's the one I have. Why do I have Plex? Let's see what we can. I don't know. I can't remember. But yeah, the first release of the
last Jedi on 4k had Dolby Vision support and then they re released it probably went episode nine or something came out and it dropped it. The last Jedi, right? Yeah, episode eight. Let's see here. I have the DTS HD MA71 and I don't know what the vision part of it is. So I got HD that is that
indicating to you? No, I only know because I have the disc and I was able to check the back of the disc. It will be different about it. So the key details is Dolby Vision versus HDR 10 and 10 Plus is just I don't have the vision on this then, that's for sure. Yeah. So probably not usually that's a disc
thing. They don't keep it because it adds bits because it's the color depth of the variable record and also how detailed the color depth is per scene. Like Dolby Vision, Dolby and HDR 10 Plus is a per scene slash frame color depth versus the whole movie. Yeah. So Dolby Vision can give you a slightly more color to tell. I think that there's a little more bits. I have requests for you then.
When I do purchase this, I would like to screen share live recording streamers for our listeners. Okay. You will help me push the final button on which button to push when I order this if you're willing to, obviously, to make sure because I'm with you, that's why I want the 4k. I want the HDR. I want the color depth. I want the audio. I want whomever went back to the source and remastered
these hopefully with the utmost care and importance. I want that. I want that in perpetuity. That is why I've rebot the source trilogy and all the versions of all 4k and have bought them from VHS to DVD, to Blu-ray and to 4k and very much because I want that disc experience. Like you had a mind. I care.
I actually bought a Blu-ray player so I could play the 4k discs. Now, granted, I haven't upgraded my TV yet. I keep postponing. Well, we moved. So is one of those. Not sure you want you then.
Yeah. Could have bought for an old place which would have been a certain size and then probably for this place and get the proper size. Right. Spousal rule permitting. We've talked about it.
The current recommendation if you need one. We'll see. So one of the things we're trying to do with our kiddo is we have what we call the screen room. Right. So here's my desk. Partners desk on the
other side. Hence if you hear any weird noises that they're here working to and the TV is right there. So that lets us isolate screens time for our kid so that they don't get tempted. Right. The biggest temptation they ever have is if we're on our phones because they've gotten smart enough that they know how to ask for Thomas for Thomas to take engine or ask for Elmo for Sesame Street and we'd say no and usually pretty good but if you started it at all and then cut them off, not that, not happy tears. Same with music. We even found like getting upset in the car place of music. Maybe some
Sesame Street. They want to see Elmo show them Elmo on your phone because it's the artwork, the cover. Still not happy when you cut them off because like we're at Elmo. I want Elmo. I was like very visual. So it's one of those we probably very stringent about that just so that they don't
get that hook early. But because that we have a TV and it's small enough space that a projector wouldn't work. But if for some reason they moved up here when they became a teenager because it's third floor of our house, we would probably put a projector in downstairs which is I will retouch to you. I don't forget. I'm very well. Yeah. Well, happy to help out. I can't enjoy the best films
ever in the world. So you guys care about the visual and audio depth and all the information. I just went hot to shoot first. That's what I care about. I'll watch it on VHS if we can have Han shooting first. Please don't change things after the case. That's my beef.
I've always hoped that Disney would re-release the original versions and we'd have those. But I'm a masterman. Yeah. How amazing would that be? Well, the problem is George is this Han shoots first. What is this? What is this detail? Oh, wow. Okay. So there's two things here. First,
the redo's. George was destroyed a lot of the original copies. So you can't really go back and get them because he claims that the remakes, the re-specialization special effects versions he did are the actual versions he wanted to do. He was complained that most likely didn't meet expectations for him in his head. It was supposed to be because he started working and didn't have the budget, but he was able to see it in later. I'm more sympathetic to that than the actual change of the
storyline or the characterization. Yeah. So what, I mean, do you want to tell Jared or do you want me to do it? No, you go ahead. You got the famous controversy that if you look at the original versions of episode four in the cantina most likely Han solo shoots Greedo first. When they're in the whole
talk and all that you see him cock the hammer on his blaster and then he just- He had it on the table. He had it on the table. Han shot first. Lucas didn't like that and thought it said the wrong message. So he changed it so that Greedo shot missed Han past the head and then Han shot simultaneously. He turned it into self-defense. He turned into self-defense, which
softened Han solo's character. Exactly. And it doesn't give him the kind of redemption arc of being that scally wag as it were or rogue person who's only kind of realizes that there's more to life than just me, me, me and Jabaka. And there's more to it and becomes memorable and so that arc kind of gets taken away. Yeah. So this became a huge thing. There's t-shirts like Han shot first t-shirts by people who
were just mad at Lucas Lucas. Well, because you changed the movie that we loved in small ways, but small ways have bigger effects, you know? Yeah. I'm fine with him going back to most easily and like adding creatures and stuff. Like I think they look bad. So I don't really love it.
Yeah. The digital Java didn't live up to the public. In the 90s, like if they read it now, maybe it looked better, but I thought it looked bad and it's six out of the store thumb. The actual CGI he went out in, but it's not changing the actual. It's just like, I get that. He wanted
it to be more. He couldn't do that with the budget and the technology constraints. He wants to go back and make it a buzzing spaceport. Don't change the nature of Han solo, you know? All right.
Yeah. There we go. It doesn't make sense. I mean, like when you take, especially the character that Han solo is throughout the entire series from, I guess not episode 123, technically, but you know, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, as soon as you consider 79, cannon, whatever. Okay. Okay.
I'm not sure. I can't worms. I mean, he's been a moll. He's really important to Calluran, Ben, to the end of the movie, to the very last movie, in the current cannon if you call it the cannon. He's there through the whole thing. So that story arc really is important. I never,
I see I haven't been this deep. I've been a fan, but not this deep a fan that even know there was this you know, Han shot first, you know, fan iconic fan scenario. I didn't know. Well, we had a lot of free time between the originals and the prequel to reality. You know, a lot of free time. You really didn't have any opportunities to watch it because you
got caught on VHS or you wait for the releases. And when the releases were coming out in the 90s, you know, you want to, I mean, typical fans, they wanted to see what they saw on screen the first time. And so when these were coming out and there were changes, you know, people got, you know, hardcore nerds, nerd it out. They started saying stuff like hot shoppers. Well, and the other thing is the, the episodes went through three, the second, the, I don't know, cool, cool trilogy. Those all came out from my number, like, turn the century, right?
So 2000s. And so all that was also coming out when the internet was really booming. So I think it was also a lot of buzz and a lot of real evaluation of 4.5 and 6. And so a lot of this came out right when we were all like real deep in the internet and reading stuff and you could find your people and just kind of nerd out on this kind of stuff. Well, part of this, yeah, exactly right. And part of this, you need to have the hope you saw a TV special or
read a magazine that happened to mention any of this stuff. You can just seek this information out or just share it, right? Like Wikipedia didn't exist, right? That whole concept hadn't shown up. So I think it kind of will coincide with that and everyone just be able to deep dive on the stuff we all nerd about, right? Because like I had to impart strikes back by cheats as a child and I had the
toys. But all I knew was yeah, the films when they showed up on TV or as Jared said on VHS or they got released in the theater for some reason, right? It was just one of those things that I love. I didn't get to really get into it. And then eventually we got home consumption and then the fandom and you could really dive into it and just really go as deep as you really wanted to.
Yeah. And the internet really did create a place where fans could gather and discuss and fandom exploded alongside the internet. I remember and early TV shows that played into that or maybe they didn't even try to, but they ended up playing into that really benefit. I think I've lost. And all of the mysteries around loss, of course, are the most disappointing TV shows in human history. But
the first three seasons were spectacular. Man, the first two seasons were spectacular. This is just my opinion. Season three was okay. And then just like a long slow decline and ultimately disappointment. But there were so many fan essays and what do you call them? Like trying to explain
the mysteries of lost and they were so interesting. Like they made the show better because there were so many interesting ideas of what might be going on. Then I think it made loss more popular than it would have been at all. Yeah. I mean, it was a phenomenon. It really was. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It
was one of those things where because there was so much potential for shadowing, everyone was trying to read into everything, knowing full-time design that way. So everyone knew this stuff was foreshadowing or not and trying to figure it all out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I only watched the first two seasons because I've won the award. You'll be disappointed if you're watching. That's basically
an amazing watch then because I left you on a high and I watched it to the bitter end. And one of the reasons why that particular series made me mad was because Damon Lindeloff, the writer, he had stated at some point early on, we have a story arc. Like we have the entire thing figured out. And he was basically lying, I think, like he said, we had three seasons figured out. They did not have, you know, the actual one resolution that was going to satisfy from the beginning. Like he said,
they did. And so we were so expecting, even as it started to get worse and worse, I just kept being like, no, man, they said, they're taking care of us. It's going to happen. You know, it's all going to come together. And then I watched the series from now on, I was like, no, I mean, it's such a rarity to get the plan that all out, right? Like, I remember that was one of the big deals with Avalon 5 when
that came out. And it was that one five was written on a five season arc to, and Jim Shorsinski had the whole plan out in his head of the big beats and where it was all lined up and how he was able to build all that intrigue and all the political machinations and all that stuff in the show and actually have a plan paying out is because he just sat up front, like, look, I can't, it's I'm not writing it to end in the number series. It's going to end a five. That's it. I hoped to goodness you give me the funding so I can see it through. And yeah, it's a unique thing. It's
not a common thing as much as it used to be. Well, I bet the game of Thrones fans were hoping he'd have it all figured out before. I never got into that show, but I know a lot of you were disappointed with that one. I read the books and then the show came out and I watched the whole show beginning and now I don't know if I care about the books, fine enough, because it's one of those things of, I know they're going to diverge, but also being a parent, they're not, they're long and there's a lot of detail to them and it's been so long since the last book came out. Like, I honestly feel like I almost had to read them again and it's just, I don't have that kind of time anymore. That's why
you need either two X or AI, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, summarize these books for me, AI so I can enjoy them. I'm sure they'll give you the page catch up real fast, but yeah, it's definitely one of those things. This is like why I love the Murderbop series. If you've ever read those books, you've made for the TV show on Apple TV, Murderbot. It's a great sci-fi series,
but the deal is is Martha Wells who wrote them, the version wrote them all as novellas, so they're short until the point. They're like 150 pages, so you didn't actually write a full book until like the fifth one and just kept doing them as novellas and they're great. If you like sarcasm and like going out the ridiculousness of people, very funny in the sci-fi book series and it's really quick and easy to pick up because they're all novellas to begin with and they started out as a short story in Wired magazine. Okay, so I highly recommend it's one of my favorite books series actually. Okay, I'm looking at that, Murderbot. Cool. So you recommend the show or the books?
I actually haven't watched the show. The books, it's all based on the books, but someone wised up to take the books and turn it into a TV show because they're right in so good in this research. But I actually haven't watched the Apple TV show because I haven't had time yet. I'm just finishing up Ted Lasso. I'm almost my second time through Ted Lasso. I'm like season two,
second time through, middle season two. Yeah, when the kiddo showed up, we really tried to make sure we didn't watch anything that required anything really new, so we're like re-watch part of I think Superstore and then we kind of stopped when you hit that six months stage of, okay, baby ain't just napping all day long. It's now engagement time and so TV time really fell back and then we only just started a couple months ago starting to watch TV and so just trying to squeeze in the occasional movie. So Kerwin's Ted Lasso. But yeah, we haven't watched TV show, although it is on my list because I'm really curious to see how they did stuff. How they handle it? What's how
many seasons they have? Three or just two? Three now, fourth is coming. Oh really? Okay, so I feel off on the second season, kind of slowed down for me. Is that a lesson? Is that a lesson? Yeah,
I guess. It's like changed. I can't recall how it changed, but it just felt different, not bad, but it's like the pace of the story slowed. Yeah, and I couldn't keep up with my excitement anymore, I guess. Yeah, it does slow down. It becomes, yeah, like the first season almost felt like how to
be a good manager story and then it becomes a bit more about the people later on. Season three, actually, we mixed the episodes longer. They go from half hour to an hour. I thought season three is really good. There's only so long you can keep up the fish out of story thing or fish out of story. Yeah, like there's only so long and then that's like season one and
then like they have to go somewhere else. And so a lot of it falls into like the life of Ted and, you know, his history and a lot of the troubles that he has and dealing with those troubles and it does slow down and it's pace. But there's still some interesting, there's an episode in season two where it's just coach Beard, like having a wild night. Oh, yeah, it's just crazy. It's like the crazy episode ever that it doesn't attach to anything. It's like a standalone, I mean, it has a little bit
of attachment. It doesn't matter. It's just so cool. So what a friend told me was supposedly they wrote that season two episode short of what they can actually had to do. So they had to write two extra episodes to fill it in and my real assuming that information is correct. My guess is that's
one of the episodes. It was a filler episode. Yeah, because it is kind of off the wall. It's totally out there. What's so ever if you took it out and never watched it would not affect. No, it's like
an overnight session of him going on a wild journey, you know, and it's so weird. No, I definitely changed the tone after season one. It's still a comedy, but it came a bit more dramatic about the people and character study and less just flat out as the fish out of order comedy. What happens if you drop someone from Kansas in London? Yeah, because I mean, eventually become a native, right?
And then you speak to tongues next thing, you know, you're get the British accent and all right, you know, like, it's only so long. You make jokes about not understanding football or soccer, because like he gets it. He's been there for years, right? He was a little special treats. He makes like I want to I want the recipe for the whole and try one. Yeah, the biscuits. The biscuits. Yeah,
I know they were like a surprise and I don't know all the characters names, but a surprise to them. I mean, Rebecca, that doesn't make some sense. And then obviously Rebecca and Ted Ted. But yeah, they keep that going. He keeps hanging on those things every single morning. Yeah. I mean,
what a sweet guy. What a sweet guy. You know, only because we're on this kick here. I have to mention two words. Hail Mary. Oh, I'm looking forward to it. I did not watch the Super Bowl,
so I did not see the trailer. Adam hasn't either. Absolutely not. I'm interested to see where this where how that movie does. I've done some trailer peaking. I will peek at a trailer. Okay,
watch it. Yeah, but I just want to get like the cinematography. Like, how's it going to look? Yeah, look away. That's me with trailers. Okay.
That's in context for everyone. This is the upcoming movie based on the Andy Weir novel, Roger Till Mary. It's starring Ryan Gosling. I think Adam and I, you read the book? No.
Okay. He just knows the movie's coming out. Adam and I have read the book. I think you audible it. I've seen the trailer. That's it. I audible it about 17,000 times. He audible it.
And I read it with my eyeballs, which means I didn't know how to pronounce Astrofage. Is that what they? When you read the words on the page, you just say it the way that it sounds in your head. How did you say it, dude? Astrophagy. You know, it's like a strategy.
Astrophagy. I was like, do you mean astrophagy? I know that's how they pronounce it. He's like, well, because I listened to an audible. I'm like, okay, good. That's one advertisement for
listening to books. That's right. They help you understand how to say things. Yeah. It's like, how am I supposed to pronounce this character's name? I have no idea. Like,
no idea. You gotta just guess and hope it's somewhat. I mean, who cares? I bet the author doesn't care, but I wonder what they had in their head. Right. Well, that's the thing about Audible is like the
person who's reading it, the narrator, they can go ask the author, you know, how did you have it? And they're directed to it. This is Ray Porter, by the way. I mean, Ray Porter. That's a favorite.
The person who narrated is Ray the great narrator, Ray Porter. I mean, the best of all time for sci-fi. I mean, anything he voices is gonna sound good or be good. Okay. Better than David Enburo.
I mean, they're two different claws. I mean, they're not the same cloth. I know. I'm just trying to think of another great voice. You know, actually, I was actually thinking about that recently because I'm gonna, I know he's getting older and I'm gonna mourn the day when he actually passes because, like, wow, well, any earth type narrated documentary, what would you call this? They're not documenting,
like, yeah, they're documented, I guess, but like, they're different kinds. They're like science-based documentaries. They're not like crime-based documentaries, for example, nature stories. I don't know, you're calling them. Nature stories. Yes, great. Nature documentaries. Like, he is the quintessential
voice for all those things. I was just on my wife's body. I was like, babe, he's gonna pass away. I'm not wanting this. I mean, it's just how it works. Okay, y'all. And how's he gonna be?
When we can't watch these films with these documentaries with our kids and he's not the one voice anymore. That would be a sad day or year. I know they just paused making them. I don't know. Yeah. Well, so we have a, so here in Canada, we have David Suzuki, who's kind of
our similar version. David Suzuki did a TV show on CBC, The Nature of Things. And he retired a few years ago from it. Still pops up and does political stuff because David Suzuki Foundation is a big nonprofit fighting for the environment and everything. Actually, I think, I think, BC, local.
But yeah, some are a thing. But he just, yeah, he retired and just slowly did less and less and just kind of stop making public appearances. And that's how he did it. David Aburalo seems to just keep doing it. He's like, I just love talking to a microphone about animals and flying floor and fauna. And I'm
just going to keep doing it until I can't do it. His pace is uncanny. Oh, it's insane. Now, here's a, here's a question of future morals and ethics. So here's a guy who's voice. I know where this
is going. You guys are thinking of you. I'm still going to say it. Well, I mean, can I just go ahead and I know where this is going to have it's our worst tie back for this. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. I know
where you're going with that. So we have hours and hours of just like lossless, amazing quality recordings of the guy's voice. And we can deploy those into the future better and better usages to the point where right now you can still tell. But 10 years from now, it's going to be an discernible, I assume, from his actual person. Because you've never seen it. I mean, I know what
he looks like, but you don't have to see his face. He's here his voice. I can hear his voice in my head right now. I can't make sure I say something here. What happens when you guys at him? I mean,
what couldn't his foundation, you know, license that out and the world could continue to benefit from this guy's amazing pace and vocals. Well, now we're getting into I just want to throw one more thing in there, right? Because you might like this too. Now we're getting kind of into Ready Player Two's territory. If you watched or read Ready Player One, great film, fun, yeah, nostalgia, but the book is better. And Ready Player Two goes into really great, well, really interesting places,
let's just say. So today, this is the Star Wars. Apparently, James Earl Jones did recordings of his voice with a Ukrainian company, actually, for Disney, so that they can keep using his voice for Darth Vader specifically. And I think that's an interesting distinction here of Dana Attenborough, the person versus a character. Right. And so for me, I don't think I'd want to hear a AI-generated
David Attenborough. It just isn't the same. I know it's the voice in the intonation and the pacing is what we'll associate with that. But, Hank, it's not going to be the person, right? And that's who, I mean, if it was really just the voice, we would not care whether this person was alive or dead. But the
point is we do, we care about David Attenborough, the person for what they have done and accomplished and given to the world. So for me, it's more than just the voice. For Darth Vader, as a fictional character, I'm less bothered by it, especially, and specifically because the actor has given permission to do it. So if the actor has given the permission to say, yes, Disney, you can keep you as my voice for whatever you need it for. I'm okay with that. I get that and I won't personally have problems with
it because it's a fully fictional character to begin with and the actor is okay. David Attenborough, I don't know, it just has a weird different feel when it's literally the person and not a fictional character. So I'd rather just hope someone else comes up through the works and becomes the next great BBC nature voiceover person versus just, let's just keep reusing David Attenborough forever and never have him be, never do this again. Because it'd be tempting, let's be honest, like, do you really want to try something new with someone or just stick with what you know, especially if it's starting to actually run. And that's what he already loves. We already know, we already loved it. Yeah.
Now, what if they Attenborough did the same thing? He said, I want my voice to live on perpetuity. I love nature docs. So, you know, whatever permissions you need from now on after I die, my last will and testament is use my voice for any nature doc you want. Go have fun. Now, what,
would you listen? Would you not listen? Would you care? Would that change your perspective? I wouldn't stop me, but I'd, yeah, I still would per for a person, but I wouldn't be upset about it if you said sure, but I still feels a little weird. Do you know what, man? I don't know. I'm really,
I'm really, this is a really fine line that we're presented with and potentially crossing. Because I don't know if I care, I guess. I just don't know if I care. I think in particular, if that was true, if David said, hey, super fan of my work, perpetuity, all that good stuff, if it was his wish, then I wouldn't, I certainly would care at that point. But if it was against his wish, then I would certainly care. Same. You know, so like, if he was for it, and he's like, I donate in all
the ways to an audio lab that can do this stuff and do it in a way that presents his desires and those desires kind of have a license or a criteria set to it. And they're always, it's always used in that criteria and that license. I'm for it. I'm for it. If the man wants to live on, I mean, he's earned it.
Well, I mean, I'm going to enjoy it because if it's David and they can kind of like, kind of keep it in the David way, the person who David shoot for the moon, man, go for it. We can't stop this stuff. I mean, we just can't stop this stuff. It's just going to happen. And we have to work around it. We have to be augmented by it. Not it's just it's coming. It's like a
freight train. It's coming. You can't stop. Take an attack. Take an attack. Well, if there's any union
that can stop it, it's going to be the film industry unions. I do. I don't think he would do that. That's true. Okay. We should be clear. He didn't say this stuff. This is hypothetical. Yeah.
Nor would I think anybody say all the things I said just now, because it's like, I mean, you can ruin your legacy. If someone can literally put words in your mouth, you know, after you're gone, they can just say you're saying things and you never said those things and that could ruin your legacy. Well, that's what I say. Like if you can do it in a license, if you can say, in these contexts, with this kind of supervision, with this kind of specification, and then the ending result has to, you know, deliver on this contract, this promise, that I think that that's a version of a last will and testament is a contract, right? So we're going to use something in that regard and adhere to that regard and it's it's desired by the original person. But I would say David
Elbor is also in unique position, right? Where he could say, like, okay, only the BBC, only for day-to-day documentaries, you can ever make a political statement, etc, etc. In which case, that's very locked in. But if it's if it's a character from a movie or something and the movie series goes, well, you know, if we have them say this slightly spicy thing, but then it sounds like something from that person. And that's not so great. Right. Like the air tightness you'd have to have,
plus, I mean, by the way, David Elbor has voice got used digitally and said something wrong. I mean, forget the British public, like the world would get really upset. Share that to somebody else, right? You'd have such an airtight contract of really what you couldn't do and be really careful. And somehow, if you know, the studios or whoever to trust to make that call, like, you know, it'd be really airtight with that. I mean, I'm sure it's coming in. They're going to do it. And somebody were going
to accidentally sign a little too loose of a contract and something's going to happen at some point. I mean, it's going to happen. But I think the question is, yeah, how's it going to play out and how that's going to look? And I mean, I know there's the actors Guild, like the last strike was all about this stuff, right? With the writers and the actors, like, no, you can't just force anyone to automatically have to give you your rights, perpetuity to recreate the character and all that, because they don't want to see that happen. So I think it's going to be a lot of baby steps. Along those lines, did you guys
see the ad in the Super Bowl, which was the Dunkin Donuts ad Ben Affleck, where he was Yeah, that was last year, right? Good. Well, Duncan, I think it was just this year. Oh, did you do it again? They did that previously. They might have done it previously. And I was
just I was literally on a party and watching it. So maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, but it had Steve Urkel, it had, to be on me, yeah, it had Ben Affleck, a handful of sign who's a sign filled George from Seinfeld. Jason Alexander. Jason Alexander. And they were in character as if they were those actual people in the shows, not as the actors. Like it wasn't Jason Alexander,
it was science, it was George, you know, and they were acting, but they seemed clearly AI acting. This is where I might be on a term. Maybe they just had some sort of like, maybe the actors really got together, recorded it, and then they put something on top of them that made them look fake. But I'm pretty sure they weren't there. I'm pretty sure they had permission. They probably
got money for it, all these things. There was all on the up and up. But like, it wasn't really Jason Alexander. It wasn't really Jaleel White or who replaced Urkel at the end of the right. Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. Because he's much older now. It looked like the end,
and I'm thinking like, well, this is coming too. But when I watched that particular ad, I was a bit offended because I felt like this is Uncanny Valley. It's almost them, but it's not them. And obviously, I'm thinking about the production and how it was made. It's actually a really funny spot. Had it been the actual, all the actors, it was hilarious. Because it's like, good,
well, hunting was like, good, well, dunking. And the whole thing is like, Ben Affleck, like he's a smart one. And there's a lot of good jokes in it. But if you guys didn't see it, maybe you can't comment. But my thing is I feel like we're in this place where it's like Uncanny Valley of AI generated people. And so it's strange. But like I said, a few minutes ago, 10 years from now,
I think it's going to be gone. Well, the interesting thing with those is those people are alive. So they can okay or sink it. But the other thing is, is if they allow it, they don't even have to show up to catch the check. Well, that's why I assume that you would do it that way, right? It's like,
you don't all you have to do is get their likeness and their permission and send them the money. And they go to the home and you don't have to have a studio time. There's no airplanes. There's no scheduling. The coordination of schedules is way more efficient. Capital
efficient. And still has a pretty good result. Although I feel like this one fell short of the market personally, just an interesting time where it's like changing. Like that's a super role ad. So that's a huge budget thing where maybe they spent way more on the time slot than they had to spend on the production. Yeah. Or maybe, yeah, they just are, I mean, I'm sure it was not cheap, you know,
as people to license out their likeness to do that commercial. So I'm sure they still made bank. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah. As you said, it'd be more fun to know it was actually them.
Because like, did they go to MoCap? Was it entirely just auto generated? Like it'd be a little more interesting if it was MoCap. At least they had their emotions, but if the emotions were a little off, I mean, that's part of the mannerism of the character. If that's not there, that's where you get that word on kind of like, it's not quite right. So if you do a motion capture, you might as well
just have the actor on screen, right? Like maybe it's just a coordination. I'm assuming scheduling would get in the problem at that point too. Right. Those people are somewhat popular enough to think, I'm like, I just don't feel like flying to wherever they're doing the filming.
I just don't care. Whatever. Now on the actor side, if you can get to that point where your your name image and likeness is so valuable that you can just, you know, sign contracts all day and not have to go anywhere. That's pretty cool for them. It's hard to be an up and cumber, but the ones who are already there, you know, it's kind of like Radiohead had no problem with Internet streaming because they were already radiohead. Yeah, it's like, it's service where
you can like pay to get like cameo cameo. Yeah, it's like that, right? Like where you get big enough, I can just pay a hundred bucks on a right record. You have like a 30 second little personal message of happy birthday or something. Yeah. A couple of those out in an hour.
Now you can do those without even doing that. You just have yourself, your likeness doing it for you. I would not be shocked if that comes from that. It's like coming strange times. This is the year we almost break the database. Let me explain. Where do agents actually store
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of managing a zoo of data systems, check out our friends at TigerData at TigerData.com. They've got a free trial and a CLI with an MCP server. You can download the story experimenting right now. Again, TigerData.com. I can't think of a clean segue into leaving the Python steering council. Here's a segue. What if you just had an AI version of yourself that could just go
do the steering council. Would you still be part of it at that point? That's not very transition at all. No, I mean, you want fresh people, right? You want turnover. You don't want the same
gray beard showing up or gray hair. We'll make it more gender neutral. Sorry. People running stuff. You want the new people to come in with some people around, who have inherent knowledge of how things ended up and why they're there, and they help keep things going without a traumatic shift. But you got to let people come in and change the project as they want.
Yeah. You just don't. Yeah, you don't want stacked in a way that doesn't let fresh people come in. Contribute. No, I would not want an AI version to be on forever.
No, I know you wouldn't. I was just trying to have some sort of way to make it. It's like, wait, so you're in Rare Company. Somebody who's had the means of power. You've had it in your hands. You've had an hour in your hands like George Washington. He let it go. You're in Rare
Fight Air here, Brad. You had power. You just said, nah, I don't want this power anymore. I'm going to let it go. It's been a couple of years now. Yeah, it's been two years since you retired from the steering
council. Any regrets? Everyone back in? How's it working out? Regrets. No, I mean, so I was on the
steering council from its inauguration through the first five years of its existence. It was great. It was great seeing friends of mine every week and having an excuse to hang out and to help out and all that stuff. But when we were choosing our governance model, one of the things I suggested to the way it was that we had to turn it specifically, so we had to turn it over. I didn't win that argument and there was enough going on when we were trying to make those decisions. I didn't press it. It was
more of an idea. But I decided to stick to it plus potential get on the way. It was like, yeah, this is just a good time to just step back and let someone else come on and have that guaranteed slot to be open. So no, I don't have any regrets. Would I ever do it again, possibly, given enough time?
Once again, I think the kid would have to be a little older and just I'd be able to focus a little bit more on it because it's one of those things that's kind of always out of my YouTube, but my brain never shuts off. So it's always going back in my head. And so right now it's a lot of kid stuff, and I want to make sure that it's not pushing kids stuff out of my head. So I want the kid to be a little older before I do that. But I can even just hang out with the people in the steering council because I'm luckily no most poor devs personally, in some extent. So it was just a great excuse to hang out
and just talk every week. Yeah, no regrets. Yeah, it was just a thing. I just stopped doing it. It was no weird anything. It's not like I felt like, oh my goodness, I don't have the power and words that I
literally do is just, I mean, even when I was on it, I still had to go through the same process as everybody else. So it's not like I was in a way privileged for the stuff I wanted. The closest I had further is I could ask my other chain council members, I have this idea for something. What do you all think and they could shoot it down a little earlier than somebody else? But everyone else can also still email the same council and ask the same question. So it's still not that privileged. I
might just get response time that's faster. So yeah, no, it was, it was fine. It was over two so we can just just took time. So I just have that time now to focus on other stuff. It's interesting to be in that position though. So what did you, if it didn't have a lot of power,
what kind of lack of power did you, or I guess what kind of power did you share with everyone else in the community? Well, I mean, you have uniquely that was part of the steering council. I'm just saying from my perspective, and not being on it anymore, my power wasn't unique and the steering council does have power as a whole, right? As a, as a council, right? Because the steering council ultimately decides what path, what Python has, what roles get accepted for Python, right? And
that drives which way language shows. So that's where its power comes from is its ability to make those kinds of steering decisions. But the council had enough workload when I was on it, and I think it's a good sense that there's not a lot of, you know, we think we should steer things this way. There's no, like when we first started it, we thought, oh, we'll have these grand plans and we'll try to spec out kind of where we want things to go long term and where we think people should focus. No, no, don't have the time. Enough stuff's coming in from the community and other gordad's asking for
stuff that just there's not enough space to kind of come up with how to steer things. So we never even had to worry about that. Right? So there's no power of like, you know, I want to make Python go this way. As a steering council member, you have power in terms of having an opinion that people know matters to an extent, but it's not a drive this huge project. And only steering council can make it
happen is just a steering council may have less can say yes or no. And that's really it's just a body that says yes or no for stuff that they get asked. What are the driving direction of the steering council? Like when you, is everyone voted in? Do you keep the seat and perpetuity?
Do you want to let go of it? You know, what are some of those mechanics around, you know, being a part of it was a do? Yeah. So the way I have always raised is the steering council's job is to effectively be the final decider of things related to the Python project. Really sum it up, right? Like if there's
any disagreements about how to handle something, deciding perhaps anything that we've just decided needs a final arbiter, the steering council's it. Basically what Guido would have done previously for every time. Now how the mechanics work is we hold elections. There are five seats. Everyone goes up for election every year. We call for candidates, you can self-nomate for candidacy or you can
make someone else and actually do not have to be a core developer. They have, you just have to be nominee a by a core developer. So you can actually have someone outside, be nominee, but it's never happened. At least no one's ever been elected. I can't remember if anyone's, I think maybe someone outside has actually been proposed and didn't get on, but no one's ever actually been elected that's not been a core dev. So that happens in November, October, November, and then the first half of December
we do the voting. We just switched voting systems to star voting. We can go into that if you want. And then that gets all resolved December 14th, 15th. And then I think it's 14th, typically. And those
people start January 1st and they serve for the year. And that's basically it. So we kind of have a lame duck, a second council on December, maybe November, but still something still gets decided where the steering council doesn't feel like it could be a burden on the next certain council or in any way controversial if they'd make the decision. So they're not totally stuck. Basically December is taken off, which kind of makes sense based on all these around the world. Yeah. Yeah.
The only abbreviated one was the very first year in council because that all happened February. Just because it was the first one, it's just timelines of choosing the actual governance model and all that, as we happened to start in February. And then decide, you know what, let's have it end and start on January 1st. So that was a little abbreviated, but not that much. So yes, if we want to talk about any systems, we can totally talk about any systems. Do you have opinions about
voting systems? Is it worth talking about voting systems? Well, so, I mean, maybe. Depends on who you ask. So if you actually watch the Python documentary, disclaimer, I'm in it, I mentioned how I found the whole thing of Grito rage quitting being BDFL stressful, really stressful. So the point that I
actually started to choke on my own throat at a restaurant once due to the stress of this, or that it's passing sound. And a lot of it was around voting systems, because the problem is when Grito quit, Grito said, I'm leaving it up to you to decide how you want to win yourselves. Period. Like he literally just said it and then Mike dropped and backed off. Like he was still around. And he was listening and watching, but he was not driving anything, which meant we actually
had to decide how we were going to decide how to run ourselves, right, which is tricky, right? So how do you decide how you're going to decide? Like we've never had to worry about this. Yeah, exactly. Right. When you've never had the system in place, because you always just propagated things up to
Guido to make a call, we didn't have anything in place. There was no concept of voting on the Python court, court team, because we never had to vote for anything. It was just we don't might ask for hands or just people to say like plus one plus zero, my zero, my zero, my zero, but there was never like a formal way to do it. And going to some of these things you can really geek out on if you want, because there's a whole bunch of literature about how certain voting systems are lead to certain gamification and stuff versus not like first pass the post, which is how like governments like North America are typically voted on, where whoever gets the most votes, but that can lead to games with stuff. And then there's like approval voting, where it's more like you just say, I like this person already don't. There's a whole bunch of stuff. So
that took a long time just to choose how we were going to choose how to go. So eventually, how long nine months of baby level? No, it was July till November, I think October, maybe, but the deal was there was a lot of strong opinions, like really strong opinions. And it was one of these things where there were times where it didn't look like we were going to re-egreement. And because there was no way to even choose that system, it had to be kind of just general like feeling consensus, because there's no way to really know, right? There's no way to like,
yeah, we've all agreed. How do you know that? You just have to have a feel on a mailing list, or maybe at a core dev sprint, just kind of a room feel that we all kind of basically agree. And we think this is going to go and no one's going to throw a fit and cause a big stink over this. So even that was hard, right? The way I always said it is there was a lot of soft power being thrown
around by some of us, or that's been around for a long time and have respect enough other people to go like, okay, I think we all have this going. What do you all think? And kind of push and force people to make it to kind of vocally say yes, no, or stay silent as an abstain, and just kind of get a feel of the room like, okay, okay, everyone good? Everyone good? Just kind of like, okay, we've all agreed and move on and hope no one throws a fit, right? It was really weird. But it was
stressful too, because you never knew. You never knew if someone was going to come forward and go, I don't like it, right? Because it's not like we're in an office where we're all chatting at the water cooler all day long. It's just emails. So it's like sometimes you're talking to someone, somebody's not, and someone can just disappear and not say anything. And so just drop in and say
something where if you were an office, you totally see it in their eyes, right? Like, oh yeah, they're not happy. Something's going on, right? So it was hard. And it was stressful. And a lot of it was
around voting systems and choosing how we were going to choose our voting system. And then once we chose the voices, it was pretty smooth sailing, right? Because that was when we had all the peps to just propose governance models, and we just use the voices and to choose which one. Which pep was this? The one that went in the end, it became PEP 13. But it was
using its PEP 8,000 something or 6,000 maybe? I think it's a thousand. I can't remember what that I'm ahead. But there's a section of PEPs that had all the proposed governance models. And we just voted on all of them. And the one that won was the council one.
Gotcha. There was even one that was basically anarchy. Like it really ran again. Wow. There was another BDFL option that kind of didn't land because the pep didn't name who the BDFL would be. And some people didn't like that. Some people were honestly afraid of people they didn't
like would be named BDFL. So they wanted to hedge the bets against that, right? It kind of ran the given. Yeah. But yeah, so voting system, a big topic. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it seems like
then you recently switched to star. He said, yeah, so we originally started with approval voting. We basically you just said, here are all the people I'd be happy if they end up on the same council. So if you had 10 candidates for five seats, you didn't run them into five votes. You could vote for 10 people or nine or eight or seven. And basically it kind of makes you go like, okay,
you're just basically saying I approve. I don't care if anyone I approve gets on. I was just these people I want. But it kind of waters down your vote in a bit because you can't really say, I really hope this person gets on. But I'd be okay if this person gets on, right? So like, I might really want
Adam to be on. But if Jared gets on, I'm okay. Right. There's no kind of like expression of preference with approval voting. So star voting. And it's all caps for stars. So I think it's an acronym.
Star voting actually lets you rate. So here's my favorite. Here's my least favorite. But you can rank them anywhere you want a range of zero to five or zero off. So he means like, no, thank you.
There's a meeting behind this. You want the meeting to start voting? Sure. What about context? I don't know if it could be as accurate or trustworthy, but let me just say that's the source. Okay.
Star voting is an electoral system for seat or sorry, single seat election of the name and illusion to start ratings stands for score, then automatic runoff, referring to the fact that this system is a combination of score voting to pick two finalists with the highest total scores followed by an end quotes automatic runoff, which the finalist who is preferred on more than on more balanced wins. It is a type of cardinal voting electoral system. But you guys do the automatic runoff part? Yeah, we did. So what happens is basically you rank all your candidates from five to one and or zero, right? If you don't want them at all. But the interesting thing with this is you really
want to rank the people you really want on as five and the people you're just okay with but or totally don't give up on this one and then spread everyone else across the peanut butter, right? And so you really do want to show a preference. You don't want to put everyone at five because it's like no difference. You really want to show a preference, which is the big shift from approval. But yeah, it just does a runoff and it goes like, okay, who's above in all these ballots at this point? And then, okay, well, it seems these are the top two if we just have these two run, what does
that look like? Okay, this person wins. They're on take them out of the ballots. Now we do it all over again and just keep slowly kind of pulling it down to see where people's preferences land in terms of, well, this person got all the fives like because there's bouncing between like, oh, yeah, this person got five, but only got like 10% fives versus someone else who got like 30% fours and just how that'll hold the machinations of the numbers and the math and all that work out. But it was just interesting that we did that shift to really kind of lip people express that preference, right?
It's not just a binary on or off the on the council would say, no, I want you on versus yeah, I really want you on to be okay. I won't be upset. But if you don't get on, I'm not gonna cry either. And that was the big shift. And that'll just happen in this last election was the first time we ran it.
And it went just normal probably. Yeah, it was it was interesting. It was smooth. No one everyone seemed to be good with it because it didn't it didn't change. It's such it was like, only vote for your five people. Like you could still express yourself, but it wasn't really
complicated to express yourself, right? The only trick was you had to understand, you wanted to run the full five point gamut. You didn't want to just pool like F5. And then, Tim Peters, court of helpers, more or less is retired from participation actively. But still comes around on occasion is a big voting nerd and run a whole bunch of things on it and show that the outcome actually matched up with what would have been expected and that the system worked.
And it was people got in the way you want to even you ran different kind of voting systems and all that. So people's preferences were expressed appropriately. And the people who the top five people who were preferred going on. The more interesting thing was on this council run for five slots only six people ran. So there was a good chance you were gonna get on. Actually, one person who did not actually
was previously on the council. So they got basically voted off, but there was a new person who got voted on. So they were so good turnover. But yeah, we're talking about like, we have talked about as a team like, okay, why was there so few people? And I mean, it's the usual thing, right?
That's a there's a time commitment. You've got weekly meetings, you have office hours, right? Like, I went to like once again, I'm just a normal quarter of now. So I saw the book office hours with the Syrian council talking about ideas and stuff. And just as I said, you talk about it, you read peps on your spare time, you respond to things, answer questions carefully, because as I said, your opinion has a bit more weight to it. So yeah, it's just there's that aspect. We also didn't know
if people were worried about turnover or not. And it just seems like, yeah, people just kind of honestly just busy. There's also there was some community stuff. There was some code conduct issue stuff that happened about a year ago. And that complicated, some things that probably made some people were like, yeah, you know what, I don't know if I want to deal with code conduct stuff. But the Syrian council kind of fell on their lap. As I said, right on the side of that stuff.
Yes, you guys do things. The book has to stop somewhere. Yeah. And I think that may have scared some people off. Like, I do not want to be that person who has to publicly say that person did something bad and they need to take it step back. Well, it's hard enough to have on to your time and thoughts
and efforts. And then also have to like do stuff that nobody wants to deal with. Mm hmm. Well, volunteering to do that is much harder to get people to do all the things, but someone's got to do it. Well, and you hear you find out stuff you didn't want to know, right? Like,
I was on the Syrian council. I was also on the code of conduct working group for PSF for the president's house for foundation is like, you get emails for reports about people. You know, I was like, I really wish I didn't know this. And so it's also got that aspect to it. So I was saying what probably you have to say. Oh, yeah, this calls someone out for doing
something bad. It's like, you also get told stuff you just don't want to know, even if it doesn't lead to something. I was like, yeah, like personally, I'm not happy with what you did. But not professionally, but at least from open source perspective, it doesn't affect the project and it's none of our business. So it's all right. We don't know. Not necessarily. I don't know what
you told us, but it's like, we hear you, you've been heard. But now I have this weird little secret in the back of my head that the public doesn't know. And I thought you never wanted to know it in the first place. You can't unlearn it. Well, it's what we tell our children, especially with like movies and certain things you want to like my friends, all this or whatever. Why can I
watch this? It's like, well, you can't unsee things, you know, especially like horror movies or certain things you just need to know, don't want to be exposed to early on. It's like, you can't unsee certain things. You should really protect your innocence as a kid. And it's not exactly the same thing, but it's a version of that. Like you want a version of, I would say bliss, right? You
want some version of bliss to operate from just because bliss is kind of nice, you know, it's kind of nice. You can't have it because it was taken from because of your responsibility or role. You might regret or resent your role. Our little ones really, really sweet kid. No stranger danger at all. Like, totally will say hello goodbye to strangers and wave and all that wonderful stuff
this age. The day someone is a jerk to them. Oh, man. And that innocence is a bit lost. And not versus just like, what, because right now at this age, they're just like, what do you mean mine? I thought we'd all just shared everything. What's going on? Is it still kind of like, I don't
get ownership? Like, no big doubt. Like, why won't you share? Why do you take it from me? But what are kind of strikes it off? But the day where like that kind of starts to click is like, oh, people
can be pushed to you and not be nice and all that stuff is going to be a sad day. So, you know, it's one of those, you want to make sure that as a parent that it's coming and hopefully you give them the tools to understand like why the world works out is that way, sometimes, but it's not always and how the copa's in deal with them, try not to let that kind of like glimmer, not hope, but kind of the innocence kind of carry on. It's the age of innocence. Yeah, a little bit beyond being good people and understanding like, it's okay. It's like, it's going to happen, but here's how you deal with it. And here's your continue to be a good person. And don't let it totally darken your view
of the world and get bitter and etc. I mean, it's one of these is actually something that being able to kind of work your up is like, I'm going to have to be done with this mic. I don't want to be done with this open source community as well. I need to kind of not compartmentalize, but kind of step aside from that aspect of that stuff. And I'll just worry about with my kid and with that.
So, it's a regular old core dev. Did you have to go to the steering council for this whole lock file standard even working on that? Tell us how that come to be. So actually, no, because the steering council has devolved power for packaging to select people. So, this is another kind of side effect from when Guido did things. So Guido did never care about packaging.
It was not his thing. He's just like, nope, not my thing. Let the community handle it. So the community handled it. And what ended up developing was kind of, I mean, I can't, but basically just groups of people who were working on packaging outside of the core dev team. Now there were people like me
who were core devs and working on packaging stuff, but it's always been a separate group of people. And so when the steering council got set up, they actually, there's a pep that says for packaging decisions, we perpetually, we perpetually defer to the select people to make calls for anything related packages. So technically the steering council still gets on it. But they've just said, yeah, but these people are the experts in the area. So we're going to let them do it. And this
happens sometimes. They're called pep delegates, where the steering council goes like, we don't have the expertise in this area. You do we're going to let you make the call. Now it doesn't happen too much with the steering council is having more and Guido, just because the steering council was broad enough, which requires the pipe people that council can get enough information to do it. And they'll just ask expertise, opinion and help. But with that, they're just like, yeah, forget over there.
You can handle it, you've been doing it this long. You keep doing it. So I had to make Paul Moore, who's one of the perpetual pep delegates for packaging happy. So that's actually who I had to make happy. Okay. And that took you four years. Yeah. Six if you measure from when I first
mentioned it on Twitter. Okay. Yeah, I mentioned that's actually probably, it was, yeah, six years ago. Yeah, we're actually getting close to coming up on seven now, actually, based on these timelines. Okay. So, you know, well, as my, as a guy who built our house, I always used to say it's just
stuck with us. It's a long and winding road, Brett. It's a long and winding road. Yeah, it sounds like this is in a long way. It's now we're talking log files. So, so, um, couldn't you just
look at the, what, MPM did and just be like, lock us. I got figured out. Just do that. I don't know. I don't know. If you ask the young people, I don't know if they had agreed back. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So maybe the cargo cold isn't the move. What was the move? How did you figure it out?
And what'd you figure out? Well, so when I, so after the Python two, three transition, right, I had a goal during that time to try to make it so anything that was in the language that changed, would either be an error or be a warning or there would be two, I need to help you just make the transition for you went through about right there. So there'd always be some way where you didn't have them magically look at things, something would warn you or your code would just make it happen, right? When I got that done, I looked around for the products to work on. You know what packaging is a thing. People always complain about packaging and Python being hard of a blah blah blah. Now,
granted, this is like, well, I could go obviously. So, like, okay, I'm going to go help up, uh, packing people. So I went over and started participating over there. And I view this kind of, uh, trying to make things a choice and not a requirement when it came to tooling, right? So set up tools for those of you who know Python, packaging all was the long time tool everyone used to package up stuff for Python. But it was the only thing people used to package up for Python because it just kind
of was there. And it just continuously had was there and the thing everyone used. And so what happened was everyone just through convention just assumed step tools was there. And that's what you had to use, right? So it had a lock on everything, not necessarily by design or choice. It was just,
it was there, which kind of sets up tools people because like, we can't change anything. We're going to break the internet, right? Like, it's one of those, we do something and everything's going to go awry because we worked everything everyone's used to uses for this stuff. And so we worked towards making it so that it was set up to a choice and a requirement, right? So, um, if you know, Python magazine, there's a thing called Py project.tama that I helped create with a bunch of other people.
And inside of that, you can specify your build system. And that's so you can say, I want to use this tool from this version requirement to build my package, right, or build my project. So that kind of separated out set up tools, right? And so that put me down the road of realizing that the artifacts or the key thing you really care about, right? It's the things that get produced, not how you put not what to use to produce them, right? Like, that's the real common alley and the compatibility
layer that you really care about. And so I sort of look around at the next kind of thing of what was kind of locking people into PIP, right? What were some of the things that PIP was doing as installer that wasn't shared by the community, right? That was very specific. Not once again, not because developers trying to trap people in PIP, but it was just to mention what they had done and just kind of got pulled forward and what we did and were carrying them in subtext files, you should remember those, was one of those things where you just kind of write down line by line where your requirements are. And that was it. But it had no structure, it was specific. And it just
had some quirks to it and all that stuff. So like, yeah, you know what, I'm going to try to talk a lot of files because also at that time, tools were starting to come out that were managing workflows and they all started to do their own work format. I was like, okay, so like, if you want to deploy to your favorite cloud host and they want to do the install for you, how do you make sure they support the tool you want to use? Well, you can't, you have to list. I'm going to support this tool, this tool, this tool, this tool, because your lock file that says what to install is only made for that project. That kind of sucks. So I said, okay, you know what, I'm going to try to solve this one.
And so I tried and failed initially because I tried to lean really hard in security, which cut out building from source because for anyone who tries to build from source and you don't know what can probably use it can compile on Tuesday, but like having compile on Wednesday. So I said, I don't want that headache. So I mean, only use wheels, which are the binary artifacts for pecking a Python has versus source distributions, which is the source thing. And I did it in the community said, don't want it. If you can't do source distributions, not going to work for me. And Paul, like, yeah, and people are saying that they don't want this
without this that I'm not going to take this. So it killed that first version. So I went back to the drive board and I was like, okay, I had some co-authors on that PEP. I felt bad that we did all this work and I got canned, I used their time up to do this. So I'm going to try again on my own. And
as part of that, I'm going to try to develop my own tool based on almost a PEP competitor as a perfect concept to show how this would work. So I started to have to kind of reimplement PEP from the ground up, which is part of my it took so long, right? Like I had to write my own resolver, I had to be able to read metadata from packages to figure out what they listed as to install like literally everything ground up, redo because a lot of because PEP is not as well as some libraries, but not all of it. So not all of it was available to me. So it was like, started to t stuff out and do all that.
And then I finally got far enough along with that. And I just came back and said like, okay, here's the format. It's readable. I can do it myself. So I know it's doable. Here's all your
other local formats. I've looked all of them. Here's the common alley across all of them. So there's no, I'm not doing anything revolutionary here's more just taste decisions like how to format it and what information to keep and all that. But it's all there. And it was just a lot of talking.
And a lot of figuring out what everyone wants and they're like, well, it's stuff. And it's just once a lot of players where it's basically working for me right now. So I don't have to, I don't feel the need to have to change. And so I'm going like, I love this because suddenly they're tool, which isn't maybe not the most widely used, we could pretend to use more because now they don't have to do it or I don't have luck for format. I'd love to have one. I'd use this.
So I was kind of all over the map. But it just, yeah, a lot of conversations. And I started about up against the due date for our kid. So I actually had to start putting out deadlines, which I should work out really well. Saying like, you have a week to give me opinions on this. It's not listening, you pass this and people are totally cool and I'm saying because
they've been going out for so long or totally listen to deadlines and all that done March 31st, 2024. But yeah, the reason we couldn't just use package lock.json and all that is Python's packaging story is complicated because we allow you to be, to use Python's the glue of the internet, right? Like the fact that you can ship prebuilt binaries of like C code that you pull into Python, right? No, it doesn't have this. If you look at any of the know package that has like prebuilt binaries, they have their own little hack in their install script. Like I'm going to go
download this custom thing based on what I think you're running on, right? But Python actually install that for the community overall. And so there's a lot of complexity around that. And how do you handle that? Like how do you make sure you grab the right thing on Mac versus thing on Windows or things are only on Mac that you carry up and on on Windows, right? Because
that happens too. And then there's got version compatibility and all this stuff. And it's a lot of stuff to keep track of, right? So the point that we're starting to see people trying to shove stuff on Python, that are not Python related just because we solve these problems already and their community hasn't. So they're trying to keep back on Python. Now I would suggest you don't do that because the
discussion is suggesting legally, it might not be a good idea. At least for a pi because it's legally specified only for the Python community. So don't take this as an idea. Don't please don't do this. But if it's Python related, go ahead. It's been discussed, but that's why it's complicated,
right? And we can't just steal someone else's approach, right? Like Rust has their nice thing with cargo, but they just compile everything from scratch into a wining scene with Go, right? No, it's a little different because you can have multiple versions of different things. Right? As we know, no, no, I was going to get really big with a single copy of a lot of
pad with different versions. We don't have that. We have a flat namespace. So you've got to have one version of anything ever installed at once by choice. And so it just leads to different different complexities. And it took a lot of work to get everyone on board and get it all lined up
and make sure everyone who had a lock file was mostly happy. UV was like kind of one feature shy being happy, but the thing that they weren't happy with is not standardized. And I was not about to be the one that standardized it. So I'm kind of waiting to see if they ever propose workspaces, basically, kind of from on a repose, like workspaces from Rust for Python, because they said that was like the one big missing thing. So I'm hoping somebody they'll do that, get that into this back and then they'll actually even use the standard as their primary. So they're UV dot
lock, but everyone else is onboarding doing it. The other holdback is PIP will write out a lock file, but they don't read and install from them yet. Just because it's all on to your running people just at that time. So it's interesting to think about how a the package manager shapes or could shape the language like workspaces, for example, right? Like, can you hypothesize how that may translate to language change given that you've steered before? Well, when the language changes,
much is just how do you specify like potential like stacking of requirements, right? Because like, if you're thinking of like a microservice, it's a microservice run app that's all in one monorepo, right? So you're gonna have some projects that are designed to run independently, that's all open in microservice, but you might want to make sure everything runs smoothly. So you might want some of those requirements to propagate up to a bigger lock file and have that old. I suppose you're right. In the case of cargo, cargo probably hands a lot of that for rust.
Yeah. Well, and because the language thing, it's like the way the language, what exactly is cargo to rust? I don't know what is the compiler. Is it the many things, you know, there's a lot for it. So how do you like describe what it is?
Yeah, so cargo is a so rest C is the compiler and cargo is kind of the workflow tool for rest. So cargo is the thing that will download stuff from Chris on IO for you. Tooling. Yeah, it'll run rest C for you. So I'd call it the workflow tool. And because rest
made the decision that we were going to the parlor, you list all your dependencies and we'll combine that into a single binary. They don't have something complexity that we say, but the whole workspace thing is you can say like update everything out once with one command and goes into all your subjects. Or you can say I require this this crate that I keep in my memory because the dependency and it treats as like a local dependency and has it all worked out so it's kind of plugs together, right? And it just all kind of just works. And it'd be UV's job to manage that not the language platform. Yeah, I was incorrect on saying the language change. I get that. Yeah,
yeah. And UV and because Python is that flat new spaces goes, it kind of becomes questionable. Like, okay, like, all right, you your microservice over here says I require this version of spam. This other one here says they need that version. How do you match it all together so that if you have a single deployment on a single Python version and you all installed the same place, you know, you're all developed independently, how do you have that will kind of propagate up or how do you do it independently and then have it still kind of pull together and all that stuff. So there's a bit
of complexity to it. Hence why, as Joel said, yeah, this is something we really need before we can use this as our de facto lock file. Now they support it to be very clear, UV will export to a parlorctal tom file, which is the file from it I developed. And they will install from it. So they're totally supportive and they were participants in the discussion. It's just not what they will use by default. They
still have their UV dot lock because that feature was missing. As I said, I was not in a position to want to try to standardize a new thing. I just wanted to have a way to write down stuff we already knew or had did in a way that everyone could kind of just rally around. What do you think about the rise of Astral and UV in the Python community? It seems like they've gone from relatively obscure to like almost everyone's default suggestion, just use UV. What do you think?
Okay, I'm going to preface everything I'm about to say here with I know Charlie, I know multiple people and Astral, they're lovely people. I want to see them succeed, etc, etc. I have nothing against Astral. Okay, to be very clear, we're people there because I've been accused of trying to kill the company before. This is Rigby Oliver again, man. That's too silly on Valley Joseph
dropping the show and nobody's gotten them. Okay, just so you're all clear. I don't know all the time purpose now. It's too. Honestly, when I booked to come back on up to you all, call me out and say a lot to come back. I almost tried to figure out if I could somehow squeeze
in time to rewatch some of that before I came on, but I couldn't make it work. So unfortunately, that's a lot of squeezing considering attacking strings. That's why I didn't have it at all. Right. That's about the counts though. We appreciate that. I don't appreciate it. I don't
care. Continue. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. All those things but we're at the butt. The cliff
fingers been set. Yeah, we're going to cut it right here. So this is the only part that's going out. Yeah. UV came out February of 2023. I know this because that was when they in February. Yeah,
I think they announced February because I think my version of my pet for a look for us came out July and I was like, and I've probably taken my surprise. I've been working on my own resolver and the stuff and some of the features you have for like a year by myself here and somebody just drops on me like, oh, we're doing that. Okay. So hence why I know the date. Anyway, yeah. So one of the
things that UV I think popularized but actually predates them is the idea of workflow tools whose focus is to get your Python code running, not getting your Python interpreter running. It's a very succinct distinction but it's a key one, right? So PDM, Hatch, are the other two big ones next to UV. What happened was is they there was a project called Python build standalone that does people Python binaries that are relocatable. So it's a big drop the tar dot. I don't know what
to visit GZ or X or whatever on your desk anywhere and it just works, right? So what happened was this project realized, oh, you know what if I can auto install Python because this one of big complaints some people have is, and so I thought it's a pain because we don't come in box and all OS is anymore like we used to and it installs are different per OS. So people are like, ah, there's no universal explanation on how to do this. And there's a lot of little details on how to get things working, right? Like we have virtual environments, which is our isolation mechanism for it. So when you
also if you don't stop on other things in your machine. And so it's like, all right, you got to get Python somehow get that installed. Okay, now I got a credit virtual environment. Okay, now I got everything installed into my virtual running. Now I can run my project, right? Lots of little steps. And what UV
popularized in HBM, the decent, what they did prior was go like, you know what, we're going to give you a unified tool that does all that for you. Right? So like UV run, hatch run, PD run, they all do the same thing. They go like, right, uni Python version something based on the metadata of your project. Do you have it? Now, okay, I'm going to go download it from Python built in
on which is an astro project at this point because the maintainer didn't want to run it anymore and now it's graciously decided to go down for the community. Download Python installed on your machine. Now they got it. Okay, gonna create a virtual environment in your, in your projects. So that's done. I'm
going to figure out what you what needs to get installed based on what you said, which could be nothing just the default install, whatever you may be at extra fields for extra stuff. Install that. And then you said, run now, I can get the Python installed through the virtual environment that has all things, running stuff, get your code running. And just one command, hold up, right? And that's a breath of fresh air for a lot of people. Right? Because you heard that's a lot of little steps
that are easy to miss. And for people and AI to differentiate it, everybody, and UV really popularized it, right? Because UV got such a big splash when they came out with UV due to the performance numbers they were getting that I went, Oh my God, this is amazing. And then they did, it's like, Oh my goodness, it does all this stuff. And so told, I said them, they're great at marketing and they might have had a good time. The performance is exquisite. And they are really good about launching new features when they
land in the packaging ecosystem. And so they get out really fast with them and people see it. And so that's it. But the concern I mean, the reason we brought this up is just about having concerns. And so this is the usual, it's great. But UV is a VC back company, they have to make money, right? Not
that I think there's any alternative motive here, but they might might implode. I hope they don't, as I said, I know the company, I know people who work there, I hope they also have jobs along in the future and I hope they're very successful. But there's always that concern. We've all seen tech just kind of have problems, right? I know some people do not love how certain things in the node community happen behind companies because of how they manage things, right? It's a concern. And
once again, you never know what the future is going to hold. You never know if it's going to be somehow money pressures are going to cause them to make a decision. I fully expect that that'll ever happen. But there's always that risk. And when everyone's instructions are using UV, it's a bit of concern. It's not a huge concern. Like, I don't think anyone's panic, but I do know
people, for instance, who flat out refuse to use UV specifically because if it goes away on them, it's going to suck to have to transition everyone else over other stuff. So they'd rather use their own so Brett's doing his thing of, all right, how do we help push things in a way that there's kind of agreement on the workflow tools of how things should work, right? Standardized so that other things can do the same things and then we don't have epic lock in in case of a massive failure. Now UV is open source, right? So MIT license even. Yeah, MIT license is very permissive.
There's probably, you know, company things that are required. I imagine it's, I mean, does it touch server side stuff? That's like actual run server side things or I don't know. They've announced that I think they have a enterprise thing. That's right. That they will run
on your behalf as a index server for serving up Python files. So that's what they have and it's designed to tie directly into UV. So this kind of plays into it, right? Like UV has stuff specifically for their enterprise products. I mean, it's typical freemium, right? Which I don't think it's an
all-ball kind of upset with. No, but you know, how, you know, props, by the way, to Astro for picking up that, what you say is called PDB or something, this project that was no longer maintained. That comes PBS Python builds standalone. Python builds standalone. So that's cool. You know,
like that guy didn't want to do anymore, couldn't. And so here comes somebody else. And so hypothetically and probably even practically, UV as a project could be the exact same thing in the case that Astro fails. Like somebody else could pick up and run with it, right? Yeah, exactly. This is why some people don't worry at all, right? You have some people going like,
whatever, I don't care if they misstep, we'll just fork immediately because it's MIT and we'll just maintain ourselves. Although granted, it isn't Rust on Python. So the talent pool for taking it off in the community is not as broad as it was in Python. But they're like, yeah, but I don't have to worry about that step to begin with. And the longer they go as the leader, the more ingratiated they get, and the harder it's going to be to switch, right? So maybe me, I'm trying to make
sure that the stuff UV is doing from a very baseline experience is kind of less special, not special because there's things they all do is just trying to get them to all kind of like, yeah, this works. And if you do this, everyone kind of agrees on something, right? So like, I'm currently working to try to get Python.org to be the producer of these people binaries, not just Python build standalone, right? Like there's nothing magical they're doing. They've got some patches that I'm working with them to get upstreamed. What they want to do is just a lack of time,
right? This is one of the things, right? Start up the only time crunch all the time. So they're trying to slowly get them up and I'm helping them as best I can. So props to them for trying to help that. And they also want us to own it because it's way easier for a whole group of people
to own how these build work versus just them. So they're working with us to get that so that we can start just being baseline people binaries from Python.org and then they'll probably have some like optimized, extra optimized or like more esoteric platforms that like enterprise customers might care about that we don't, which is like a perfect fit, right? Like letting them own enterprise is great. Like that's really where I want to see them shine. And for the general community, like let them be an option not a requirement. The other thing is, is I have another pep that I are talking with some
people behind the scenes, including them about standardizing virtual environments and where they go, right? Because weird problem here, because everyone kind of sticks virtual environments wherever they want tools like VS code or your editor, whether if you're a supplier, text user like you are, I assume you still are, maybe you're on set now, I can't keep track. You're on set now. Okay, finally made the switch and it's stuck for the first time. Oh, congratulations. So whether you're VS code or zed or whatever, right, you're tool doesn't know
where to find this virtual environment. That's so critical to your project. Because every tool does their own way. So I've written a pep to try to standardize where it goes or at least have a marker file to tell you where to go to get it so that all the tools can kind of just know where to go to look to find the thing, right? Because it's such a fundamental thing for discovery.
It's a little stuff like that. I'm just trying to kind of clear up so that if I recommend using UV, and for some reason it doesn't work out, you just have to say, go use hatch, it's kind of flow through and just kind of work nicely together, right? So that's where I'm taking it from. And it's not, not because I want to take away from enterprise or anything from a company perspective. It's just the baseline. Everyone in the community kind of wants experience should be universal enough that
swapping tools is small. And then when you want to enterprise special stuff, totally get attached to UV totally grown up that you can totally just attach to the hip to it and go for it. Like that makes total sense to me. We're getting an enterprise company, right? It's just the way it is. Everybody's got such special needs that that's not something we're ever going to standardize.
But for the stuff, like kids, right? It's caters, hobbyists, right? When you're AI writes you with your models, right? You have a little Python script and you're just like, okay, I just need to run this real fast, right? Like UV is totally a good, reasonable thing to say and use right now. And as I've tried
to be very clear, I have no problems with that being the thing is I want to make sure that that never becomes a problem and just head your bets really is more of the thing. So that's kind of what my current big project is, right? Because I want my little kid when they go to school. And if they learn Python in school, I don't want them coming home and say, Daddy, why is it so hard to get Python going? Like, I want to make sure like, I can say, like, Amen, right? Amen. So I want to make sure that
they have in everyone on the planet, subsequently has a good experience getting Python running. And I think that was one of the big things that happened in 2025 was the community going like, you know what, I like this workflow. I like this tool that I just say, run my code, my phone code, and it does all the other little details, stay on my code running. Like that was, I think the big, big thing. And that's what I want to work towards making the norm and doing what I can help UV and these other tools out to make it so it's acceptable to more people to do because it doesn't lead to weird issues with, as a cloud provider or your tooling is like, it's not going to plug in with Zad. It's like,
well, no, Zad just plugs into the standards. You can totally use PDM, you can totally use HAC, you can also just do it. And it'll just going to work. And it won't get stuck behind either. Right. Because I also like to help the help projects thrive because they all have little
innovations that help with their projects or anything else. And that's kind of helps builds up. And then people try workspaces, right? If UV helps, and then they try it out and they get a good experience because everyone's trying to learn thing and then we can send it out, right? So take away the drudgery lore bit and make it want to be able to innovate at a higher level.
Well, if they're a business, right? When you go to astral.sh and you hover over products, you see tools and platform. All their tools are liberally open source, right? UV is dual licensed. It's actually Apache to and MIT, you can choose. Whereas the platform pyx,
would you go that picks? I don't know. pyx. That's why I say my head. I think all others are not acronym say actually say I'm the other is like, T Y is not tied. It's T Y. So I from all their
for all after stuff, I say all the letters. You say UV then ooove. This is oove man. You've been standing around the whole time. I'm just kidding. But okay. So pyx, if I'm leading in on business
model, they are trying to build massively adopted tooling in the Python world and their venture back. It seems like pyx is the way they jettison into product, although I just, you know, cavita, the fact that I'd hover over products on the website. Yeah, sure. Tooling is products, but they're not products that you generate income from. They're products that you extract income from by way of more like your future child not being upset about getting Python running more easy because maybe you've solved that problem or X, Y or Z. Maybe it is truly X, Y or Z with them considering
pyx. What were your feels on that? What do you feel? How do you feel about? I mean, I suppose you get back into npm world a little bit, right? They were a separate venture back company acquired
by GitHub. We know the story there doesn't agree there's some challenge there with npm inside of GitHub security concerns, massive usage. I mean, it's success, a major success, but just has some security challenges. And you know, a lot of not a lot of resources behind it. And we've speculated on that in recent episodes, we'll income up. But if pyx, the next step in Python packaging is it,
how do you think this will fare for them to turn this into a revenue generating packaging manager? I mean, so without having talked to Charlie about the business model, other than what he said publicly, yeah, I think basically what happened was is Charlie made rough while he was in between jobs and really knocked out part and not really popular. And he's, oh, this is really cool. And people came forward like, Hey, I want to give you VC money to try to fix Python tooling. And he took it and he built an amazing team. There's a lot of Python developers and really top people in the community
who went, yeah, you know, I'd love to help you do that because this is a problem I see and I care. And I want to see that happen. And it's why I'm not really concerned about actually re stepping wrong. This is all just hedging bets, just because we're all paranoid. And so we got that team and they're able to build UV and get a repop going get really broad usage, right, which I think has won them a lot of name recognition and a lot of just getting into companies, right?
Like, yeah, it's usually just usually just usually which makes it way easier for them now as a business, like, Hey, if you need an internal package index for Python, that's highly performing, we'll give you whatever enterprise stuff you need, like, like backups and just making sure you only give packages that you've vetted or only has certain licenses, like all the enterprise stuff you ever ever you typically need. And it's level, come use UVX by UVX from us and we'll work with you, right? Because I know Charlie's actually done a lot of work talking enterprises to find out what they need, right, which is why UV has certain knobs on it that are very good for enterprises that just most of us will never care about. And I think that's what they've done is they've gotten enough name recognition of or just gotten into enough people's workflows that it just becomes the second nature thing to pick up, right? It's like when you're on any of the cloud providers, whether it's Azure, AWS, whatever, it's very easy to just like, Oh, I need a solution for this. Oh, you already
got on this on the cloud for run fine. Click button, you're done. And you're in. I think they're it's a similar play here, which totally makes total sense. And once again, P Y X is totally an enterprise thing and tries me to be clear. Like that's why it's not an MIT
thing. It's an enterprise thing where we expect to make money and it's just going to do whatever enterprises need to happen. And that's cool. And these use that to help fund UV. I mean, private registries makes sense, obviously, right? Enterprises, private registries, you got,
you know, maybe even internal tooling, lock and key, you got a lot of opportunity. I think, Oh, yeah, there's a lot. You've said pi PI, which I thought was, did you catch that, Jared, pi PI? Okay. Check it on that because that's a little strange. I've never heard it
at pi PI, but that's cool. Okay. So because I've done an audio book for you, Adam, that's why. Okay, I'm gonna take pronunciation as gospel. Astro phase. Yeah. Okay.
I actually do a whole lot. And you talk on this a Python one year. So does pi PI and in pi pi, which predates pi PI, is the Python JIT interpreter written in Python. So P Y, P Y, that's pi pi pi pi pi pi pi pi pi pi pi is the Python package index. And that is why there's the distinct pronunciation difference. So people don't that makes sense. PI makes sense package index.
Okay. I think correct it. I thought it was a private investigator. That too. Funny backstory to end to let you know that Python has a sense humor.
Originally, I was willing to the cheese shop after the cheese shop sketch from my Python because Python's not the snake. But people were worried to also date me. Pointy-haired managers wouldn't take Python seriously if our index was named the cheese shop. So we went with pi PI. Now, if you get a 404, by the way, on pi PI and scroll down, you will hit the cheese shop sketch as I was on YouTube by my Python. So we kept the name around.
That is nice trivia. Let me see if I can get this done here. Go on. Parmesan, Mitzel-Rita, Pippo-Tram, any Danish fumbeau? Cheps-a-bak-in sheep's mochi.
Venez-wa-e-dung beva cheese? Not today, sir, now. This guy's not a liar, people. Trying. I do have a dead brain, though, so it means I do forget maybe a little facts wrong, but it's not on purpose.
I have a shitty order out of order, but you got the tea shop. So I think it's great that Ashall's gotten this money, and they're putting it back in the community and stuff. As I said, I guess this is hedging our bets as a community to kind of just help alleviate the load on them and anyone else who does this workflow stuff from my perspective and just trying to do that. But it's tricky, right? I admittedly went to office hours for the student council last week, and I talked about them about this.
Or would you be up for the ENS kind of stuff? And they were like, people are binaries we get. That's something that's in our wheelhouses, it's not. But running workflow to me is outside our purview. We're in charge of the language.
We don't do this kind of little stuff. And we also don't want to step on people's toes. They want to not, Python very much tries to not tell people what to do. This is why we have multiple type checkers. I'll try to type check to a single spec, but there's not one shift inbox with Python.
It's the community drives a lot of this. This is one of the drawbacks of not being driven by a company. But it's also one of the great things about not being on my company. People are allowed to first and create a thing, and it's allowed to make things happen. And people you learn, you kind of roll around stuff into slowly propagates with the community, then you can standardize that, and then everyone gets it automatically.
And so they just said, we don't want to cut people off by blessing a workflow. So I'm just talking with people in the scenes right now, like, okay, how do we all kind of coordinate among workflow tools? And it kind of includes me because I wrote the Python module for Unix, which kind of does very, very lightweight workflow stuff. So you're just like, how do we communicate? Yeah, once again, just try to keep stuff moving so that the community just keeps working towards things so that we all just work together and everyone benefits.
Right? It's just like, you've included. Right? So that's why I'm working towards right now. It's trying to, you know, the world is led by the daring, man.
I think Charlie's one of the daring to undertake rust for Python, bold. And that's daring too, just to like- I did it first. No? You did it first. Okay.
So we're both too, Brad. So here's the backstory. So there's a Python launcher for Windows. So the py command, if you're on it with, I know, I know, and it's no longer Windows user that that that little trist is over. Back Windows, get back back in your proverbial box.
So Windows is a py command because back in the day, the way when you're in the installer, Python wasn't put on your path. It was installed in a place and you just saw the py command, which would know where to look on your machine to get it, just because the way Windows historically is done. Okay. Backwards. No comment.
On Unix though, you didn't have this basically as Python in your path, but there was an interesting benefit to the py command on Windows was when you ran py it always choose the newest version of Python that you had installed. On Unix though, if you type just Python or Python three, it would oftentimes be the latest Python you installed, right? Like if you installed Python 3.14, but I think three is the latest release. And then you can solve Python 3.13.11, I think, is the latest one. If you didn't that order, who's SimLink would win in your user bin?
It was usually the last one you installed. Sounds like the older one. Yeah, right. Which sucks. Like why do I always have to try to remember what's the name, like how do I type Python 3.14 or what's I remember with the latest one?
Or if you have scripts, right? Whereas like, I want to say bang it to the newest version of Python, you can't really because it went not choose the right one. All right. So I wrote the Python launcher for Unix in Rust as my Rust starter project long ago. I remember this long time ago because I want this on Unix to have this command that automatically search a path and find the newest Python 3.13 version and use that.
And then on top of that, I added a little nicety where if it finds a virtual ver in a .venv directory from your current directory up to your parent, it would automatically select that instead of trying to find a Python on your path, which has a nice benefit. Where when I start a project right now, I just go py-m-v space.venv. And that's the command to create a Python environment using the newest version of Python I haven't sold. And then from that point forward, I just type py and it just always picks it up. And I want to think about it.
I don't even have to activate my virtual ver in my shell. It always is just the thing in that project. And I'm done. And I don't even have to think about it. It was kind of my little pre-swork precursor to workflows tools doing this way more involved.
But this is why I'm totally seeing Adam. I did first because I wrote that in Rust before to be a user. You were old, right? You were bold. Charlie still both of you.
He's still a Rust. If I thought he's still this. Oh, thank you, Charlie. Thank you. I mean, he did already some of my problems.
He did a great job. I mean, rough is really, really fast and really great. UV is fast, although funny enough, a cast of yours on Change. A friend's entry in this bit, I think. Yeah.
So Andrew wrote a blog post in December of 2025. Talk about why UV is so fast. And if you read it, he points out a lot of it's not to do with Rust. It actually has to do with some of the algorithmic choices in terms of what they use for resolver, because they use PubGram and also not having backwards compatibility concerns. So they get to wash away all the cobwebs that Pip has to continue to support and avoid all that.
Or him. So that's not to say Rust is faster. Like I think it's my last blog post actually in my blog. I wrote, should I rewrite the Python launcher for Unix in Python? Because it's in Rust, partially because it was my restarted project.
But if I forget people, binary is done, hopefully I will. Theoretically, you could do what UVX.sh does. If you don't know that one, that's a new one from master. If you go to UVX.sh, it's a website where they will auto-gen a shell script to download UV, I think it's UV, and maybe do a direct download. But they basically will download, install Python, probably on your machine, then download and install the project from PyPI and then make it sure it'll end up on your path.
So you don't have to make sure you have Python. So it basically makes it a one-stop shop for a shell script so that the old like curl pipe essay is running works for Python projects now. Thanks to that website. So I've gone like, well, maybe I should do something like that. I mean, I had the idea, they implemented it nicely.
So no, I don't have to think about it. But keep beating it to your punch. Hey, the idea first. I'm a one-person dad versus a sort of a... This is why Brad's trying to kill Astro.
He just, he's laughing out. No, no, no. I do not need more comments from people online saying I'm trying to kill a company. I'm not trying to be successful. I hope Charlie gets very rich.
So you said one thing there that stuck out to me was prebuilt binaries. What are you doing there? All right. This is getting really into the weeds of binary. What are the means, man?
Get your hatched out. So think about your historical configure, make, make, and solve steps to get some C code on your machine, right? From source. Yeah. All right.
When you do that, PaaS to where to look for .so files for dynamic linking, get hard coded into the binary. Exactly. It's in the RPath setting or RPath field in your elf or dwarf file or whatever file from it, your OS uses, UnixOS. But basically, hard codes with absolute PaaS where to look on your machine to load these .so files. Okay.
That means it also is very much tidier machine and where it ends up. So when you do dash S prefix, it hard codes some stuff that this is where things are going to be. And I expect them to be there. And if you move me, I'm going to break. Right.
So dash S prefix does a bit more with compiler. There's stuff. And it gets hard coded in the thing and it makes it non-portable. It's tidier machine. And the reason Linux operating systems can get away with it is because they control the layout for everything you install.
So when you do DNF install, whatever, or apps install, or whatever, they've already done all these builds with knowing where everything's going to end up. So then it just works. People like Homebrew, though, that you actually install different locations and stuff. And you don't know what they're going to pull in. They can do that too, right?
To an extent, but not really. They have to make it portable. Conda does this as well because when you, a thing people did for a long time was they used Conda to install Python and then actually we'd just pip to then do installs for packages. Because Conda was the easy way to get Python on your machine. But UV is starting to kind of eat into that, I think, personally.
Yeah. But the deal is this stuff is hard coded and it's not portable across machines. So what Python builds standalone did was they patched some stuff in C Python that made some assumptions about things being static about where they ended up. And then also have some scripts to patch or to set certain settings on the resulting binary so that they also use relative paths of where to look and what to do and just let you just drop the C Python binary anywhere in your machine and it would just basically work. And that's the deal is it's just Python never was structured for that and we didn't work worry about it because people just it's a thing, but it was never a critical thing.
And then it's always become more of a critical thing because people have found that this already could work for this nice, right? Because this is one way to kind of like package Python in with your previous application as like scripting back in if you don't want to compile it directly into your binary itself. So that's what I want to see people by now is is basically right now for Python.org, right? You can get a Windows installer, although you should honestly install the Python manager from the Microsoft store, if you're on Windows and then let that do the downloads for you. And everyone knows?
No, no. You can get the Mac installer, which is a graphical installer and that will also install. And then on Linux, it's there's nothing it's just source. You can get the trouble. So what I want to do is I want to get it so that for Windows for Mac for Linux and for any other tier one, well, that's all the tier one platforms, but even hopefully tier two platforms of Python supports because I created a tier system for platform support for WZ tier two.
Yes, tier two. No, we can talk about tier two. So don't to explain to that. Two four in the weeds. Come back a little bit.
I say go in the weeds, but I don't really mean it. This is a shitty order. He's machete in the weeds, man. I'm sure this has something to do with some home lab where the flame from running free BSD to run a ZFS server. So that's why I'm saying you that's why I've moved on from that.
No, and I moved on very quickly. That's true. I'm in some good places now. I've been playing with OK, Incas latest and greatest man so much fun. I mean, the best.
The best. Zincas plus the ZFS. The world man, the world. So cool. OK, I will look forward to the show notes to find out the link to the thing you just mentioned.
I live like your C3 you Adam. I don't have the time right now with it with a new job. I'll lead you bread. I will get my machete out and I will lead you to the weeds. Thank you.
Anyway, so that's what so I want to get it so that you can get like basically as zip file as well as whatever for Windows Mac, Linux, hopefully WZ as well, maybe one to other platforms. You can just download and just unpack and just have Python ready to go because you just don't have them. Yeah, and that's what I'm going to do. And that's what I'm going to do. Right.
So that would bypass the need for them to they went to compile it, right? It's the same in that. Exactly. It's just the one how to do it. Seventeen steps to learn how to do it because just to put with Python, you have to learn how to compile Python and install Python and version Python and all the things Python.
Like can we skip that step, please? It's more honestly, it's more about making the install step universal, right? Right. Like right now, if you're on Linux, you can get it, but you have to know what command you get it, right? And to be frank, people like Debbie and mess with the Python install in ways that we don't on the core team fully agree with, but you also have to know what to get like on Debbie and they don't install VIMP, which is one of the key steps I listed, they considered an application.
So they rip it out based on Debbie and policy. So you get the node install Python three dash full to get pip and VIMP installed and not just have Python without them and without PIP, which are kind of critical. Yeah. See, this is too many steps. That's a thick weeds, man.
Thick weeds. Too many steps. This is why Jared's been upsell these years. And you're here to clear the air. I've got Python PTSD.
Yeah. And he's like, I'm like, I resist like the play guy. I do. I'm just like, gosh. But once again, instructions on macro different, instructional windows are different, right?
Everyone's got is different way. There's no universal kind of just like, run this man who requires some OS or just get this one tool installed and then it'll automatically get you Python, right? And that's why people. And then you got to have a build pipeline, right? You got your get up actions going, you got your containers going, you got, right?
Are you in that world? Are you in CI crazy get up actions? Oh, my, oh my gosh, world. Well, I helped set it up for Python. So yeah.
Well, then you're going to want to play with Incas then. OK, we should talk. Well, I don't want it anymore. That is one thing I've handed off to the youngsters. Oh, OK.
We can go. I'm the guy who got Python, see Python's development on the GitHub and thus we actually use all the predake it up actions. But once I got it over there, I hope to get us on to get it back to get it and not rely on Travis and stuff. Circle CI. That's the name I've heard in a long time.
Just shut up right now. This shows over y'all a lot. So you see how all this stuff goes, right? And all this stuff you've had to move on because things don't last. Oh, nice to meet you.
Start to talk to Jenkins. But now you get it, right? But this is why I make there's any hedging of concerns around companies. Like we outlasted people came about CVS. We outlasted source forage.
Like Python is Python came out in February of 1991. Resilient, right? Before Linux came out that August, right? We're an old project. We outlasted a lot of stuff.
And we're kind of not going anywhere. We're enterprise level. We're not global level yet because we're just not that old. But effectively, you can't get rid of Python at the point where everywhere. So it's one of those we kind of have to plan for the future in terms of making sure we are in an to an extent so sustaining.
So you've explained it. You took us in the way. It's what is the state? Give me a brief version of the state of pre-built binaries. Is this close?
Is it shipped? Who's running it? Where can you go? I'm running it. So if you go.
So I have a product. So there's going to project to kind of coordinate stuff. Go to github.com slash Python slash. I believe it's pre-built dash C Python. But it's on the Python org, right?
Yeah, it's on the Python org. Basically, it's all discussions really there of just like, here's the goal. And then talk with the stakeholders who care and just trying to work stuff up. I'm trying to work with Python build standalone to get their key patches upstreamed that they apply when they do builds. I said they're busy, so it's a bit slow, but they're working with me slowly through them.
Once those are all up, then we're going to figure out exactly what needs to happen for build to patch or tweak or whatever five they have to script to make the actual build happen. So it's all just tweeze the source, it's actually the steps to do the build. And then at that point, the release managers will just do it as part of the releases. And it'll just happen. So I'm going to say it's being worked on whether or not it is a 2026 thing or a 2027 thing.
I don't know because I'm kind of depending on other people on being the experts and I'm just being acting as product manager and away for the stuff to kind of make it happen. So I'm driving it, but I have to ask other people for help. So I can't just make it happen all of my own. So it's at the speed of me and other people being able to work together. So if you need some help with the actions part of it and the build is a pipeline part of it, I got some wisdom, I can, if not all of it, because I've been tinkering on this front here and I'm like knee deep and solving a problem right now.
I mean, we can talk when it comes time if you want to contribute to Python somehow. I love to. But right now I'm at the stage of just trying to make it so that if you did a build on your own machine, it would work. Then we can talk about what is going to look like on GitHub actions because that's when we talk about like, okay, like what Linux district do we use to make sure we get an old enough version of Glib C that it runs everywhere we want to run on and that kind of thing. It's probably going to be all the Linux, I think, because that's already what it's.
What do you think of build yourself? Dander out, man. Let's talk later. We're going to four in the weeds. I love it though.
My gosh, it's the best. Get up dot com slash Python slash pre-built dash C Python. That's the URL, right? Yeah, I think so. So we're talking about that.
If you pulled it up, that's it. That's what I got. I went to the Python org. Getting patches upstream and then after that is getting the scripts so that the ton is released and then it's getting it in as a release. I don't think it's going to happen for 315, but hopefully for three.
This needs to happen. This needs to happen. It's going to increase the usage of Python. It's going to make onboarding newcomers on onboarding agents even so much easier, especially when an agent is taking a brand new machine and helping a new developer get to that next level. Like this is paramount.
Like you need to put the gas, the pedal down, gas all the way, burn the fire, hatch it with the weeds, all the things. Okay, get this done tomorrow. If you need some security, I also got your Wazzy build too, so you can totally have it use Wazzy so that it can't run amok. That's a whole other topic. That is.
We might have to bring it back for that one. Snarky.ca, y'all. Okay. Snarky.ca. Get it what's hot.
It's a free USB on the gift. It's just sitting at the free USB stick on the curb. It throws back. Pick it up and give it a little love. Hey, get a little love.
This guy did it before you did it. He's going to keep doing it while you're on gone. That's right. Can I know? Right.
Right. You're the best man. Right. That will last forever. I'm Brett.
Can I have your life? You're the best man. Anything left in closing here. No, just load your C2. Thanks for having that con.
So I was going to catch up and shoot me in stuff about movies and TV shows and all that good stuff. Movies and software, man. Doesn't get much better. TV shows, movies, software. Movies and software, y'all.
That's how we do it right here. Yeah. Brett, you're a friend. Thank you so much. We love you so much, man.
Stay cool. Stay awesome. Bye, friends. Bye, friends. All right.
That is the changelog for this week. Thanks for listening. So which Star Wars order is the best Star Wars order? Would you listen to AI Day of that, Moro? Do you have strong opinions on open source of building systems?
Let us know in the comments. Links in the show notes. We love hearing from you. Thanks again to Fly.io for partnering with us and to break Master Cylinder for producing a steady stream of the best beats in the biz. Next week on the changelog.
News on Monday, Steve Ruiz from TL Draw on Wednesday, and changelog in friends on Friday. Have yourself a great weekend, set up a blog if you haven't already, and let's talk again real soon.