Trump's Flailing Goon Squad

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MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of The Briefing. We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out, or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents, I've faced the tough questions from the press, and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless, we have our voices, and I will continue using mine. The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9 p.m. Eastern on MSNBC.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. It's Dan's turn to be on vacation. So with me today, my good pal Alex Wagner, MSNBC senior political analyst. It's so good to see you. I've never heard the phrase senior political analyst. I'm so excited. Thank you for having me on this fantastic podcast, Jon. I'm thrilled to be Dan's vacation sub.

Thrilled to have you. Thrilled to have you. We got a big show for you today. We got a Trump whistleblower on deportations. MAGA world still angry about the Epstein files. FEMA officials criticizing Kristi Noem over the Texas flooding response. Democrats worrying about the midterms. Then I talked to Ana Ramon, an outstanding organizer whose group is working with Vote Save America to help recruit candidates to run for office in Texas. So stick around for that interview later. But Alex, let's start with Donald Trump's global trade war. It's back and it's dumber than ever. You might remember this line from Trump trade advisor Peter Navarro, who White House colleagues have called dumber than a sack of bricks.

We're going to run 90 deals in 90 days. Alex, we are recording this on day 90, and I regret to inform you that the number of trade deals stands at two. The UK and Vietnam. That's not 90. That's not 90. Nope, not even close. Trump has, of course, decided to buy himself more time by pushing back the deadline yet again to August 1st, a date that everyone believes he'll stick to. In the meantime, Trump spent the week threatening at least 22 countries with higher tariffs via letters that read, like, the president's true social posts, complete with an abundance of capitalizations and exclamations.

Except they were on White House letterhead. The tariff threats went to countries we already have trade deals with, like South Korea. There's a free trade deal with South Korea, so there's already zero tariffs between both countries. And countries we have a trade surplus with, like Brazil, which Trump threatened with 50% tariffs in part because he says he's upset that former President Bolsonaro is facing a trial for attempting a coup. Obviously, Trump's not big on people getting charged with trying to incite a coup. If you're wondering whether there's a method to all this madness, this clip of Trump speaking about tariffs at a meeting with African leaders this week should clear things up.

Sir, can you explain how you calculated your latest round of tariffs? Was there a formula that was used? And do you expect any of these countries to face tariffs as well? The formula was a formula based on common sense, based on deficits, based on how we've been treated over the years, and based on raw numbers. Do you expect any of these countries here to face tariffs as well?

I haven't thought of it, but maybe, I don't know, unless you like him, him, him, him, and him. No, I don't think so. Not too much. He's very good. These are friends of mine now. It's a rigorous process, Alex. Definitely. Highest standards. Highest standards. So the markets have recovered since Trump retreated from his Liberation Day tariffs. Prices on some imports have risen, but nothing drastic. Although we've actually lost manufacturing jobs, so that part of the promise of tariffs has not come true. Trump's approval on the economy, and especially trade, has taken a hit, but his overall ratings aren't too much lower. What do you make of the White House decision or Trump's decision to restart this trade war right now?

Well, I think, you know, numerically, they can still get the just the basic counting correct. Like 89 comes before 90. So there's that. Right. They had set this arbitrary deadline of 90 deals in 90 days. It was 89. They had to do something. But like, John, it's the most foolish clownish.

endeavor ever. I mean, you focus on some of these countries that we have trade surpluses with. I know that Burma, Myanmar, where my mom is from, is on the list with maybe a 40% tariff. For anybody that's been following even the scantest of news about Burma, there's a civil war going on. There's millions of displaced people there, tens of thousands dead. The annual per capita income is $1,200 a year. The idea that we're going to launch a trade war with Burma is not only stupid, but craven. In the same way that Trump's talking about needing Vietnam to buy more American SUVs.

in a country that has insanely narrow roads and where the average per capita income is like $4,000 a year, like there is no sense. There is no actual economic strategy that undergirds this. It's like literally, I don't know, there's the human facts person that he employs in the White House. Like there's someone standing at the copy machine just like firing off the tariff letters with arbitrary numbers plugged in. And the worst part about it, I mean, I honestly think the thing that most hurts Trump is that everybody's onto him. You know, like the taco thing Trump always chickens out, I think is for Trump the most humiliating piece of all of this, which is the market saying like.

Screw you, dude. Like, this is why we didn't see market panic this time is because they get it. This is his game. This is his shtick. It's August 1, then it'll be September 15, then it'll be November 9, or whatever the fuck it's going to be. But all of this is so arbitrary and ill-conceived, it makes Herbalife look like some brilliant marketing scheme. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's just, there is, I don't even know how it ends. Like, maybe someone gets hit with a tariff at some point, but the idea that we're restructuring a trade imbalance.

in the course of even a couple months is a laughable concept. All this stuff takes years to hammer out. And if he had just stuck with, oh, I don't know, the TPP, which was not hammered out by his administration, but he unwound, we would be in a much better place. But I mean, what is actual economic policy really matter when you can just... you know, have fun at the Xerox machine. Like, I don't know, Xeroxing your butt and they hit a bunch of letters, which is apparently what's happening. Just freelancing. Apparently the new numbers that they sent to all these countries, they are sort of like the Liberation Day numbers, but they're like off by 1% or 2% for no apparent reason in different countries. Like they just sort of like round it up or down just based on whatever. And then of course there's, you know, the idea that he's doing 50% tariffs on Brazil because he's just pissed that they're holding a former leader accountable. So there's just no rhyme or reason to it. I mean, as it is now, we're already at like, I think we have like an average tariff rate of like 17.5% in the United States.

other with all of our trading partners with the rest of the world if you average all the countries together and that's higher than it's been at any time since the 30s i think and i think people like you know certainly the markets calm down because he walked a lot of this back but some of the price increases like they're not going to take effect until like a bunch of importers rush to import a bunch of goods before some of these tariffs went into effect um so we're still gonna like it's not showing up in the economic data yet but that doesn't mean that we're out of the woods even if he doesn't impose any new tariffs and keeps kicking the can down the road. But I don't know. I mean, you're right about the taco thing. Like, I think it's humiliating enough to him that I also wonder if he's not going to be like, fuck it, I don't want to be called that. I'm just going to hit them all. The taco thing on so many levels is like his kryptonite, right? Because it goes right to his ego and the idea that Wall Street, which he is, you know, is obsessed with, would think he's a clown is enough to motivate someone like Trump to do something totally reckless. And that's I think that it's both, you know, sort of delicious to see some, you know, a group of, you know, Wall Street's finest.

just embarrass him but it's also a little terrifying because when he is in that position he tends to do even more unusually foolish and foolhardy and reckless things. So I don't know. Which, by the way, also is why I don't love Democrats like doing the taco thing as a joke and like continuing to put it. Like, watch out, guys. Watch out. Watch out. Yeah. Like, I mean, I guess politically, right? If he goes and crashes the economy, that's really politically bad for him. But do we really want to do we really want to live through a global trade war that sends prices skyrocketing? You know, I don't think most people do in this country. On the Iran thing, I think Chuck Schumer was like, he tacoed on Iran. It's like, well, he bombed Iran. So, I mean, are we happy now? Yeah, be careful with the taco. It may come for you next. Yeah. So.

We'll see, though. I mean, you know, we can't predict these things because who the fuck knows? And he keeps kicking the deadlines back. But I do think that one of these days soon he's going to snap and say, no, we're going with tariffs. Yeah. I mean, let's hope it's not. And it'll be interesting to see which country it is, right? I mean.

There are people that are negotiating in earnest, right? The EU is... There is movement happening behind the scenes. And if we're lucky, the sort of net-net of all of this is that one of those real actual substantive negotiations comes through and he can point to it as an example of his reset and then move on and say, I'm not a taco. Like, look what I did with the EU. You're welcome. Bye. And that is where it ends. But who knows with him? I mean, look out, Myanmar. Like, you may get a 40% tariff in the middle of your civil war. I just obviously find that particularly galling. And by the way, one more drawback to taco. I hate that I fucking keep saying this. But is that these countries...

They don't really have it. Some of them haven't reached out to negotiate because they don't have an incentive to do that because a lot of them don't believe him because he keeps backing up. So even even from his perspective, he's not going to get the deals he wants to get or have the leverage that he wants to have because a lot of these countries just aren't taking him or us seriously, which I completely understand. I mean, I think and also the taco narrative. I'm sorry. We've just got to keep talking about it. I keep saying it is is I mean, it is being used liberally in this moment, but it is.

something to pay attention to because it is also a placeholder for so much of his attitude towards so many different things, right? Like this idea that he'll say one thing, whether it's prosecuting political enemies or whether it's, you know, financial trade matters, economic and trade matters. There is so much bluster. There's so much threatening behavior at all times because that's effectively the only strategy he knows how to run. You know, I think this is an interesting development.

in that, because if that is taken out of Trump's quiver, if he is, you know, if that arrow is taken out of his quiver and it's, you know, he's widely seen as, you know, if it is an emperor has no clothes moment, it sort of does beg the question of like, OK, well, what what happens next on a host of other, you know, in a host of other areas where Trump's threats are his only an essential negotiating tools? I don't know. But it is in that way, I think it's more meaningful than just the sort of like tariff Xeroxes that are being circulated around the world. Pots of America is brought to you by Z-Biotics Pre-Alcohol. Got to tell you about this game-changing product I use for every night out with drinks. It's called Pre-Alcohol. Z-Biotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre-Alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I recently bought...

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Uncle Bob can fix just about anything around the house, at least according to him. But when it comes to natural gas appliances, they should always be inspected by a qualified professional. Learn more at embridgegas.com slash safety. All right, lots of news this week on Stephen Miller's quest to live out his teenage fantasy of deporting people who don't look like him. He got some bad news from a federal judge in New Hampshire on Thursday who issued a nationwide injunction blocking Trump's decree that being born in America no longer makes you a citizen. You might remember the Supreme Court recently limited lower court judges' ability to issue nationwide injunctions, but they did carve out an exception for class action lawsuits, which is exactly what the ACLU did in this case, and it worked. Now we wait to see what the Supreme Court says about the constitutionality of ending birthright citizenship and whether the Trump administration will abide by their ruling, since they don't seem to think they really have to with some of these rulings. We got more evidence for that.

thanks to a new whistleblower report from Erez Rouveni, a 15-year veteran of the Department of Justice who defended some of the first Trump administration's most controversial immigration decisions in court, including the travel ban. So not a lib, not a rhino. This guy was a DOJ career guy who defended the Trump administration in the first administration, a lot of their immigration stuff. But he says that back in March, top Trump personal lawyer turned deputy attorney general, Emile Bove, who's waiting to be confirmed by the Senate for a lifetime appellate judgeship, said in a meeting. that the Department of Justice, quote, would need to consider telling the courts, fuck you, and defy a court order blocking Trump from using the Alien Enemies Act to send Venezuelans to the foreign gulag in El Salvador, SICOT. Ruvini also claims that another Trump DOJ lawyer, Drew Ensign, lied to a federal judge when asked whether he knew if planes of migrants were about to take off for El Salvador. Ruvini has texts, emails, and other documents to back up his claims. So, Trump administration's obviously trying to discredit this guy. How well do you think that's going to go? And could Erez Ruvini be a problem for the White House? First of all,

This whistleblower report is just like confirms everything you imagine is happening in the DOJ, right? Like, why don't we just submit an emoji of the middle finger as our response to this filing? That's like literally from the documents. It's like a bunch of guys sitting around. I mean, these guys are saying it, I think, as has been characterized as gallows humor, right? They're like, this is so fucking depressing that we're saying fuck you to the courts. But the general climate inside the DOJ appears to be one of complete impunity. And sort of like...

joking about the rule of law at the Department of Justice. We should just never get past the sort of the fundamental allegations in this whistleblowing report. But I mean, I think it's a problem for Emil Bovee and his confirmation to be at the second, you know, the feeder to the Supreme Court. Like as absurd as it would be, I think Trump is genuinely thinking about Emil Bovee becoming a Supreme Court justice if he's trying to put him on an appeals court seat. And I think, you know, look, it's hard to say whether or not it's going to be a problem for the White House. I mean, I do think there is a sense that in Magellan,

you do whatever the president asks you of you no matter what and there as i'm sure we'll talk about there's a real lust for deportations in any form or fashion extrajudicial or not like and if you're not falling in line with those deportations no matter what the circumstances then you got to get tossed out on your ass and like whether this costs trump anything with his base i think is i mean i think it probably doesn't right it should cost him with the broader american public but i don't know like there's so many things that we deal with on a daily basis does one whistleblower do it I think legally, though, it could be a problem for him, right? I think that there is the court of law that will not look kindly into these allegations, especially given the reality of these deportations and how Trump is trying to break the law there. So this is further fuel for that fire. And I will say, John, you know, there's it's an interesting thing, right? During Trump one, there was a feeling that like Trump mistakenly hired these semi-principled people who acted as guardrails and like, oh, in Trump two, it's like the worst of the worst. And the entire system is populated by Neanderthals who will just do whatever he says. And moments like this.

just offer a little bit of hope that, you know, there are still people who don't think of themselves as partisans, don't think of themselves as gatekeepers for democracy or institutional atlases holding up the entire firmament, but that still absolutely recognize, even... though they may be diehard kind of conservatives, that you can't do certain things. And I think we should hold on to that, that there are still people inside the system who can understand right from wrong. And if I think people who care about that can help protect this person's integrity, assuming he deserves it and this is all true, then that hopefully will encourage more people to do the right thing, even though they may be subsumed in the Trump swamp. I mean, I found it really heartening that there's a whistleblower right now who's saying, like, this is fucking unacceptable. And here are all the text messages that prove the way in which these guys knew that they were breaking the law and flouting it and doing whatever they needed to do to just get people that they don't like out of the country.

country. Yeah, I think there's two ways it can be a problem for the Trump White House. One is Beauvais' confirmation, right? And we're going to talk about Tom Tillis in a bit. And he did an interview with Jake Tepper, where he's suddenly courageous now that he's retiring. But he was asked about Beauvais. And he was like, yeah, yeah, I'll probably confirm him. And this was before this all broke today. So maybe Tillis' mind will be changed and maybe he won't have enough votes. But Reuvenet said he would testify before Congress, testify in court. So this guy's willing to do whatever. But I do think in some of these legal cases, especially like the Supreme Court has not yet decided.

the constitutionality of the Alien Enemies Act, right? And Trump using that in the first place. Like, there are still so many questions around deportations, even though it seems like the Supreme Court has issued many rulings around the deportations now. There's still a lot of big questions that they haven't answered yet. And, you know, this guy, Rouvenet, I should have said, the reason he got fired was because he's the one who admitted in a court filing to a federal judge that they made a mistake in deporting Abrego Garcia, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, to Seacott in the first place. So this guy was there for turn the planes around when they were going, and then he was there for this was a mistake. And, you know, he gives this interview in the New York Times.

He's like, look, the reason this is important is they sent 248 people to Seacott. And we have no idea where these people are right now, whether they're alive, whether they've been tortured, like Abrego Garcia claims he was when he was there. There was no due process. And we now know from this whistleblower and from a bunch of other evidence that, A, they knew that the judge and the courts didn't want them to send these planes. They sent them anyway.

So they sent a bunch of people to a foreign gulag in defiance of court orders, knowing that the court didn't want it and saying, yeah, maybe we're going to say fuck you anyway. And then when they found out that they mistakenly sent someone, they just fired the guy who just told the truth about that. I mean. When you think about like being that person, right? Or being Andre Ramirez, right? Or being any of the people whose names we don't know are in Seacott who like, could they be Trendy Ragua? Yeah, some of them. Could they be really bad people? Yeah, some of them. But like some of them seem like they're completely fucking innocent. Well, and you put that, you put the whistleblower's account, right? And his sense of alarm about what's happening to people in this country together with the viral videos that now exist of people just being snatched to court or snatched in parking lots and like in the most sort of violent.

terrifying fashion by masked ICE agents in unmarked cars. And you think, I mean, that does not look like a study in a well-oiled deportation machine. It looks like vigilante justice. It looks like dragnets. It looks insanely haphazard and maybe illegal. And then you couple that with the alarm that's happening inside the Department of Justice where they're processing these deportations and dealing with the courts and actually getting people out of the country. You have someone saying, oh, this is really wrong and we don't know what we're doing and we shouldn't be doing that. I mean, I think those two things collectively.

could create a problem for the Trump administration because you have the combination of like the American public bearing witness to what's happening in their cities and towns across the country and then this coming from inside Washington and it's not just a local story it's not just a DC story it's the two things together and I think that makes it more resonant. And by the way, even if the Department of Justice still has, you know, hundreds of Erez Rubinis there who are willing to speak up, the challenge now is ICE is going to have a bigger budget than the FBI. And it's going to be the biggest law enforcement agency in the country. And the standards for training and recruiting for ICE are much, much lower than the FBI agents who spend, you know, weeks and weeks in Quantico and have graduate degrees and go through all these. Like, it is. We're headed for a really dark place now. Yeah, I will just say.

Even with a bigger budget, I'll say nothing of the actual employees, but even with a bigger budget, the fact of the matter is you're not going to get 3,000 Trendaagua gang members every day. You're going to always have to grab people at Home Depot. You're going to always have to find hotel workers and farm workers. I mean, you cannot get the numbers that they have set out, Stephen Miller has set out, without going after those people. And legal residents. Exactly. And you're just going to, honestly, with more budget.

and less trained people, you're probably going to have more of these videos and more of these things happening and more coverage of these violent sort of raids and seizures of people who may be here with the right papers. So, I mean, I think it's not good news for people who are getting deported, but in terms of the story really having legs and the situation becoming measurably, palpably worse and therefore resonant and affecting to the American public, I think it will be. Yeah, there's a DACA recipient in Alligator Alcatraz right now. Miami Herald just reported today. So worst of the worst, but it's a DACA recipient.

absolutely has a right to be here. And that's, I mean, that's why Democrats need to champion the stories of the people that are getting snapped up in this stuff. I mean, that's where the storytelling really matters because Trump has painted everyone with a very broad brush. And until you can say that person's name and where they went to school or what their story is, I don't, I mean, I think the sense of tragedy needs to be piercing because right now I think it's just kind of a more abstract horror at what's unfolding. But I think, you know, there needs to be a little bit more personal investment in like the trials of these people who are, whose lives are being upended by all of this.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. Miller's immigration purge is running into other problems thanks to Trump's agriculture secretary, Brooke Rollins, and prominent Trump supporters like Joe Rogan, who apparently had dinner with the president last week. On last episode, we played a clip of Rogan talking about how I thought it was supposed to be criminals, and now they're deporting all these farm workers and the Home Depot raids and all that. And apparently he had dinner with Trump. And basically what's happening is Rollins, the agriculture secretary, and Rogan types keep getting Trump to promise that he'll exempt undocumented farm workers and perhaps hospitality workers from deportation. And then after he makes that promise on Truth Social or says he's going to do work permits or whatever else, people like Stephen Miller.

and Steve Bannon get really pissed and Trump changes his mind again. So do you think this immigration split in Trump's coalition is meaningful at all? Or do you think we'll keep getting this back and forth? Do the Millers and Bannons just went out? I'm interested in this. I think, I mean, look, I'm very interested in the fracture that's forming within Trump's space. Like the center can't really hold between, you know, the sort of the big, beautiful bill that is the largest, most significant redistribution of wealth in a generation and pushes it upwards at the expense of the poor and the working class, many of whom are in Trump's space, to, you know, the immigration stuff, which pits, you know, sort of wealthy business owners against MAGA nativists who want to see, you know, who probably believe in many ways, right in many corners in great replacement theory, ideas about, you know, white supremacy being encroached upon by...

people. I mean, these are deeply held ideals and beliefs on either side of the Trump coalition. And I, you know, I think it's a real stress test. And on the immigration stuff, like the tax stuff, he can just hope that because the worst cuts don't happen until after the midterms that he can sort of like blame the Democrats. So maybe there's a reprieve there in terms of like being able to stitch the coalition together on it for a little bit longer than might otherwise be the case. But on the immigration stuff, like we were just talking about, you cannot.

do what the MAGA base wants, which is, you know, the excision of some significant part of this country from the economy and from the fabric of our democracy without going after the Gardners and the Home Depot people and the hotel workers. Like, you just, the math does not work. And I know math is not Donald Trump's strong suit, John, as we discussed at the top of the show. But I mean, they seem, the 3,000 deportations a day figure is like, is popular knowledge at this point. And they seem very intent on managing it. I don't, one thing I don't think you can do is keep teasing reprieves and then not delivering. I mean.

People are going to, they're going to go, they're going to, you know, that debt is going to get called in at some point. And it's going to start to affect actual industry. So I do think that this is a real problem for him. And I have no idea how he navigates it because he constantly talks out of both sides of his mouth. And this is one of those things where it's like the rubber's literally meeting the road. I mean, every passing day exacerbates the tension between, you know, business and MAGA. And there's no, there's literally, they're diametrically opposed. And therefore, I don't know how you swear that circle.

Well, to your point about when we were just talking about the deportations to, you know, Seacott and everything, making sure that we're telling these stories is going to be important because of the debt coming due, as you mentioned, right? Like Joe Rogan has dinner with Donald Trump. Donald Trump says, oh, yeah, we're going to protect the farm workers. No problem. And then Joe Rogan sees a video of a bunch of farm workers getting ramped up and deported or hotel workers or whoever.

What does he think he's going to do then? You think Joe Rogan's just going to be like, oh, I must have been mistaken. Like he's going to get criticism from a lot of people who supported him. And, you know, you're starting to see these cases we've already seen over the last several months where there'll be deportations and people getting rounded up, people with legal status in like deep red areas. Right. And he's like that woman who was in that rural Missouri county who everyone like, oh, she's been a part of our community for decades. And they finally released her. But I think it's starting to make even.

hardcore Trump supporters, or at least people who voted for him a couple times, think like, hmm, I thought only the bad ones were getting deported. Right, exactly. I mean, this is, yeah, that's the thing, is people know these people. And I think with so much in Trump land, he can get away with these generalities about the libs or whatever, but these touch people in their backyards and at their diners and, you know, like in their ordinary everyday American lives, and you can't escape that reality. So the president has another problem with his MAGA base that's less consequential to the country, but possibly more consequential to his political standing and certainly way more fun to talk about the case of the missing Epstein files. So Tommy and I have been talking about this all week. I'm sure you have. Yeah, I'm not surprised. But the fire just keeps burning with the White House now taking criticism from all corners of the MAGA coalition. Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Laura Loomer, Tom Fitton, Megyn Kelly, Andrew Schultz. They're all pissed. Many of them have called on Pam Bondi to resign. And then here's Tucker. And I do think someone who voted for the president campaigned for the president a lot.

I'm not second president, but I think even people who are fully on board with, you know, the bulk of the MAGA agenda are like, this is too much. Yes, yes. I'm saying that with love and I hope that they're listening because I think this threatens to blow up the whole thing. But let's just. What do you think? Do you agree with Tucker? Is that what it sounds like when Tucker says things with love? Like I haven't. Yeah, right. I didn't know what that intonation sounded like. Yeah.

That was a lust. First of all, this is not the first time Tucker has said, I think this threatens to blow up his entire presidency. So let's just like, let's just acknowledge that. Prompt of exaggeration on that one. As someone on the sidelines in all of this, I will say I'm torn between thinking like Democrats.

should absolutely Chris Van Hollen, I think today is like calling for an amendment to an appropriations bill that asks for further investigation and a report about Jeffrey Epstein. And like part of me is like, take ride that pony all the way to the bank, Chris Van Hollen, like keep those home fires burning. Like maybe Pam Bondi needs to be ousted. Maybe, maybe, maybe the very, very capable Miss Bondi needs to actually feel some consequences because it's such just desserts, right? Like ye who have spent.

you know, a significant portion of the last several years spinning conspiracy theories, diluting the American public, poisoning our democracy. Now you, Kash Patel, and you, Pam Bondi, and you, Dan Bongino, are in the hot seat. How does it feel? What does it feel like to be actually doing a thing and have everybody telling you you're like doing the devil's work? Why don't you go visit Comet Pizza and have a fucking slice? You know what I'm saying? So that's a Pizzagate reference to anybody who's not from Washington, D.C. You know, like, why don't you give John Podesta a call and ask him some advice?

So, right, so there's that piece of it. However, like, this is the trial. This is the selfish choice for all Democrats and liberals and people who give a shit about democracy. So there's that schadenfreude piece of this, which is like, yes, okay, keep digging. And then there's the reality that, like, so many DOJ employees who were actually working on real criminal concerns were taken off that work to work on the Epstein stuff, which was a complete waste of resources and time. In a moment, they're like, you know, the DOJ has legitimate work to do.

setting aside whatever Trump wants them to do. There's work that needs to be done in those halls. And like, maybe now we can just shut the door on the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy theory and we can please all move along. Like if you are offered the opportunity to lay to rest a nasty conspiracy that, you know, has just fueled speculation and like, you know, turned some people's lives upside down, maybe we should take that opportunity. It's a hard, it's tough math though, John. It's tough math. Yeah, it is tough math. That's the theme of this episode. The schadenfreude is great, right? Like screw these people. But I'm thinking about the base, right? Like what has led a lot of people to join the MAGA movement, right? Is not necessarily...

any one policy, though there's some of that for some people. They like the deportation stuff. They want to build the wall, all that. And obviously it's like a love for Trump, but some of it is they, you know, it's, we've split into new coalitions. We're the institutionalists in the Democratic Party and the Republicans got all the cranks, right? It's like Matt Iglesias, I think, coined the term a couple months ago. And so it's like, it's a crank coalition now, right? And so they got RFK Jr. and they got Tulsi Gabbard and they got all these people and they believe in conspiracies and they don't believe in, you know, in any kind of authority or expertise or anything. And so for those people,

who put these people into office, now to have these people who promised them that they would uncover the worst conspiracies and that they would go after the deep state and they would do all this stuff, to have that promise broken by Donald Trump himself? I don't know if this is the thing that cracks the coalition or hurts Trump, but I think it opens the door. I mean, I think this is a bigger wound, or at least it could become a bigger wound than... I thought at first, just because this is the stuff that really drives his base, unfortunately, for all of us. Right. It's like bombing Iran, maybe getting us into another Middle East war. That's bad. But not finding out what Prince Andrew was really doing. That is the thing. That's the straw that broke the camel's back. But you may be right. And I think probably collectively, the feeling that the Trump administration is betraying the promises made to the base, whether it's, I mean, they may not register it, the shredding of the social safety net, whether it is getting the U.S. involved in foreign wars, whether it is offering...

special dispensation to the hotel industry and the agricultural industry or whether it is not delivering on One of the greatest conspiracies of the 21st century. All of this can lead to a mounting sense of betrayal. So maybe there is some wisdom in Tucker Carlson's words of love. Also, this can go on forever because there's only two possibilities here. The most likely one, which is the list doesn't exist. They're telling the truth now. So the list doesn't exist. They're telling the truth. In which case, no matter what they do, they can keep pushing. They're never going to get a list. They can fire Pam Bondi. But then the next attorney general, the primary litmus test for the next attorney general will be, can you produce the Epstein list? Which they will be able to because there's no list.

Do you remember they, like, had an influencer event at the White House where they, like, they gave out binders with, like, already previously released, like, you know, Rolodex rolls or whatever it was from Jeffrey Epstein's office? I mean, they're so desperate to find anything. It shocks me they couldn't find a thing to try and spin up. Like, it must be such an open and shut case that they couldn't even find, like, well, we did find a packet of Splenda in a cell that may or may not have been Splenda or something, you know, just like anything. There was literally nothing for them to hold on to in the report.

It tells you something about the state of course. Or the less likely possibility that there was something, and now they're just going to cover it up forever. Right. Well, then, you know. Then Tucker and all of them are right, so who knows. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but a quick announcement before we do that. Love It is going to Canada for one night only. Love It or Leave It is going to be in Montreal on July 24th for Just for Laughs with special guests Zach Zucker, Roy Wood Jr., and Gianmarco Sareci. Then it's back to Dynasty Typewriter in L.A. for the usual business. They've got a great lineup of guests here, including Alice Wetterland, Peppermint, Ken Jennings, Amy Schneider, Kristen Johnson, Mary Beth Barone, and more. Grab tickets now at cricket.com slash events.

Podcast of America is brought to you by Rocket Money. Everybody knows there are things they can do to reduce monthly costs and improve their finances. But who has time to go through all of their expenses and decide what to trim? With Rocket Money crunching the numbers for you, leveling up your money game gets way easier. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Their dashboard lays out your total financial picture, including bill due dates and paydays in a way that's easy to digest. You can even automatically create custom budgets based on your past spending. If you've got a goal you'd like to save for, Rocket Money can analyze your accounts to find the best time each month to put extra money aside. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. The app automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work to get you better.

That's rocketmoney.com slash crooked. Long Play, our docuseries exploring the people and forces shaping the South, is back. Newslash, the South is the new political epicenter of the country. Democrats are way on their heels in this region, but Republicans are going through their own reckoning in the South, too. We're in the final stretch of the midterms, and the political map has only gotten more competitive, with new states and districts emerging as potential flips. So we thought it was time to get back out on the road and take a closer look at what's actually happening on the ground. I'm Erin Haines, journalist and expert on all things Southern politics. And I'm Jennifer Palmieri, former White House Communications Director. Tune in on Mondays to Long Play series on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, if you're in the White House and you're dealing with all this, you'd obviously rather direct your supporters' attention elsewhere. And so one thing you might do is let them know that you're launching new investigations into more deep state traitors. Sure enough, Fox News broke the story this week, of course Fox News, that the administration is spinning up criminal investigations into former CIA Director John Brennan and former FBI Director James Comey. Current CIA Director John Ratcliffe apparently has referred Brennan to the FBI for potential criminal prosecution, allegedly for his testimony to Congress related to the inclusion of the Steele dossier in the agency's 2016 intelligence assessment on Russian interference. Real callback to season one.

of this drama we're still living. Maybe season two. It seemed early season one. It was season one. I think we can call it season one. I mean, I guess if they'd gone after Hillary, that really wouldn't have been season one. Yeah, that's why I was going back and forth. So it's not clear exactly what they plan to hang on James Comey, but the Times is reporting that plainclothes Secret Service officers tailed Comey's car and tracked the location of his cell phone the day after he posted a photo of seashells spelling out 8647 back in May, which Trump World made a big show of treating as an incitement to a threat for assassination. The Secret Service visited Comey. That was another, that was a more recent episode.

Trump got asked about these potential investigations in that meeting we talked about earlier with African leaders on Wednesday. Let's listen. Well, I know nothing about it other than what I read today. But I will tell you, I think they're very dishonest people. I think they're crooked as hell. And maybe they have to pay a price for that. I believe they are truly bad people and dishonest people. So whatever happens, happens. Just absurd. What do you think of them?

I mean, how real do you think these investigations will be? Like, clearly, of course, no one worked with John Brennan when he was in the White House. And, you know, I saw him on Nicole Wallace's show and he gave his first public comments there. And he was like, you know, no one's reached out to me. He's like, I read about it in the New York Times. I've gotten called by the FBI. I haven't gotten visited by anyone. I have no idea what this is supposed to be about. This is clearly going to be a huge pain in the ass for Brennan and Comey if these investigations unfold. Do you think that's all or is it something worse?

I think this is... So the mechanism by which this is being executed is clownish, obviously, as so many other things are. I don't think there's anything there. They call to mind the Durham report, which already went through all of this, right? Like, we know how the story ends. The point is not the actual investigation. The point is to re-seed John Brennan and Jim Comey's names in the American sort of conversation and get...

you know, MAGA world fired up about them. It's a redirect from the Jeffrey Epstein stuff. And that is a precarious place for any public person to be, right? You do not want the president of the United States to be talking about you, especially using that language, right? I think they're very bad people. I think they're as crooked as they get. Whatever happens, happens. Like you talk about an incitement towards violence. That's what it sounds like. It's not a bunch of seashells on the beach.

Although what the fuck was James Comey thinking? Like, what? Anyway, setting that aside, like that kind of language coming from Trump, who begs to know nothing about this, which is hilarious, because it's like, I mean, what is the one thing you have is a bunch of stooges in office doing exactly what you want. But but the idea that, you know, it's you know, they're just terrible people. And it would be a shame if something happened to them is kind of what I hear when I hear that. And that's so regardless of whether there's actually a false investigation and whether they subpoena him or whatever happens, it's the sense of vulnerability. It's the sense of I think.

danger imminent danger that this puts them in and i think the sort of long tail of this is any public official right i mean it's already we're seeing purges at the doj already we have whistleblowers right anybody who stands up to trump whether he's president or even in his post-presidency You know, this is the kind of thing that gives you pause, right? Like, do I really want to do this? Because, like, even when I think it's over, even when season two has passed and we're in season three, season four, we may be even in season five, like somehow Trump will go back or Trump's allies will go back. And when it when it suits them and when it's politically expedient for them, they will go back to it to stoke rage and animosity.

for nothing but, I mean, for a goal no bigger than personal gain and political survival. So that's dangerous. And I think that is the thing that matters in this, maybe more than the actual investigation itself. Yeah. And look, there's also a lot of space between a nuisance and, you know, being worried that you're...

your life is being threatened by this, right? Which is, they start an investigation about one thing and then they keep going and maybe they don't find anything, but they leak a bunch of the investigation just to embarrass them, to publicly shame them. So there's that they have to worry about too. And once they investigate those two, then they start getting statements from other people and it all becomes a thing about like, do you entrap people with false statements and all that kind of shit? And so it is a recipe for the kind of dangerous politicization of the Justice Department of our criminal justice system that, you know, I don't think, you know, publicly a lot of people are gonna look at this and look at this and even people who are like Democrats will be like, oh, I'm sure they didn't do anything wrong and it's fine.

whatever. But it's like, it's not going to stop at James Comey and John Brennan at all. And what it does is it just sends a message to everyone, whether in the government or out of the government, that you cross these people and we're going to send FBI, DOJ after you. And within the FBI and the DOJ, I'm sure they might have some problems finding people who are going to do these investigations and take these cases. But if you're those people, you're thinking to yourself, OK, do I say no and lose my job or do I go along with it? Right. It's like it's like Raveni and like the idea that there are good people in there who are like, well, wait a second. Are we just going to take a middle finger to justice? And some people do.

So Trump isn't just taking revenge on the deep state. He's attempting to purge most of the federal government of anyone who's not completely loyal to him with mixed results. This week, the Supreme Court greenlit Trump's plan to fire hundreds of thousands of nonpartisan, nonpolitical civil servants. Challenge for Trump is that there aren't enough Fox News hosts and podcast hosts to staff an entire administration, though he is certainly trying. Marco Rubio's got four jobs now. Todd Blanche has a few. Stephen Miller's running just about everything. And now, former Real World Road Rules and Real World Road Rules Challenge star. I want to make sure he gets paid for all three of his reality shows that he's been in. Sean Duffy. He's apparently going to run NASA.

at least for the time being, as well as the Department of Transportation, where he has had some trouble keeping all the planes in the skies. Meanwhile, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem seems to be struggling to balance all her duties with her press hits and photo ops. FEMA officials just told CNN they had to wait days to get the funding necessary to respond to the devastating Texas floods, thanks to a new rule that requires Noem's personal signature on any expenditure over $100,000. The official said that normally they'd pre-stage search and rescue teams to areas they know will flood. They weren't able to do that this time. Noem didn't provide the approval for those assets until Monday, more than 72 hours after the flooding started. But she did find time on Sunday to ask her Instagram followers which...

portrait of her they'd like to see hanging in the South Dakota state capitol. So, you know, there is that. I mean, who among us? Who among us hasn't gotten just totally sidetracked from really urgent work matters trying to figure out which equestrian portrait to hang? Who among us doesn't have multiple equestrian photos to choose from? A lot to choose from. I mean, it's it is we talk about Sophie's Choice, but I wish if only there was a Department of Government Efficiency that could look at this incredibly inefficient government setup that we have and figure out a way to streamline it. It's not I mean, I say that, but it's like.

Can you imagine being the parent of one of these children and reading the story? It is unfucking fathomable. Like, first of all, $100,000 for an organization like FEMA is effectively asking, you know, your accountant to approve every $5 expenditure. You'd be spending all day on the phone with your accountant. It totally hamstrings FEMA. And we haven't seen the worst of this. Like we're going to have multiple natural disasters that we have to contend with, both because it's hurricane and wildfire season and we're burning the earth up at an alarming rate. So this is one of those things where you want to hear this charge being led by people affected directly by these disasters, like asking questions. This is where if I were in Kerrville or I were in Texas.

Or just as an American citizen, there have got to be answers about this, right? If there's truly a delay, if Texas isn't getting the deployment of federal resources that it needs, I think that there's more reporting that they didn't have enough people to answer the disaster call center because she hadn't approved extra federal support for that. They needed more data for their search and rescue operations, but they didn't have the cooperation of the federal government. I don't know if an equestrian portrait takes that long to decide upon. But this is someone either who is in the most, I'll be the most generous, I can be either so overwhelmed with work that she cannot delegate in the way that she must, or who is just completely out to lunch and out of her league in like the most urgent and pressing matters of like human survival, right? So none of it's excusable. And now we have, I'm sorry, I just need to go back to like the road rules champ running NASA. Like if you wrote it in a screen page on- He's been doing such a good job at transportation. Well, road rules taught him so much about the road. Why can't he apply that to zero gravity?

I mean, what is happening? Well, see this. OK, let's even if we lived in a world, let's just live in an imaginary world where all these people have the best intentions. Right. And they want to do right by the American people. And they want to they want to serve the public as they're supposed to do. When you hollow out government and fire people who aren't loyalists and just, you know, send the doge teams in and all the rest of the bullshit that's happened since January.

This is what's going to happen. You're just going to get rank incompetence. When you fill the administration with Fox News hosts at the cabinet level, people who've never done any of this shit before, you're going to have these problems, even if you had the best intentions, which, you know, we can I don't really have a lot of hope that they do. So, of course, this is going to fucking happen. And of course, it's going to get worse. And, you know, there's two big consequences to hollowing out the government and to the way that Trump has staffed the government. One we just talked about, which is you get loyalists who are going to do your bidding and not do the bidding of the American people and go after people and take revenge and just basically be your sort of personal patronage army out there.

And you're going to hollow a government and not have enough good qualified people to just do the basic functions that need to be done in government. And the most basic function is protecting the American people and helping them when natural disasters hit. Well, and I would say it's exacerbated. Not only is there the incompetence and the cravenness, there's also the stupidity of making the job even harder by saying, you know, passing rules like every expenditure over $100,000 I have to personally sign off on. I mean, this is making a job that you are already unqualified for that much harder. And it's not just like sort of sitting on the sidelines and cackling as these people, you know.

are incapable of doing their jobs. There's a very real human consequence here, and that's what makes it so unacceptable. But I mean, again, this is a thing where it's like, you have to keep, I mean, the people... The questions need to be, I mean, what really truly needs to happen, and this is the sort of, I'm always asking myself, is this a catalytic moment? Is this a moment where you really see citizen outrage on the level where you need to see it? And from the people you need to see it from. These are people who are losing family members or their entire, you know, their life in these catastrophic floods. Like, will they ask the questions? Will they hold these people accountable? Because this will keep happening. I mean, this is not a one-off, right? It's only going to get worse.

Yeah. And we're only at the beginning of hurricane season, you know, even just this year. So one person with both the courage to speak out about this and the power to do something about it was retiring North Carolina Senator Tom Tillis, who this week explained to Jake Tapper why he did neither of those things on two big administration nominations just this year. Here's a sampling. Well, you know, first, I need to set the record straight on Hexeth. With the passing of time, I think it's clear he's out of his depth as a manager of a large, complex organization based on the information I have today. If all I had was the information on the day of the vote, I'd certainly vote for him again. But now I have the information of him being a manager, and I don't think that his probationary period has been very positive. Quite honestly, the main reason I supported Kennedy was because Bill Cassidy thought that we should see how it plays out. Just... Okay. It makes me so mad.

With the passing of time? With the passing? First of all, I had the information. We all had the information. We all had the information that he couldn't run a nonprofit. Why did we think that he would be able to run the Pentagon? Nobody thought he could run the organization. And, you know, the idea that these Republicans can actually say the truth only when they're no longer running for office, there is a special place in, you know.

The underworld for people who know better, I think, in all of this. It is one thing if you've been fed a steady diet of misinformation and you've grown up in the far, you know, stretches, the farthest right corner of the universe and you really genuinely don't know better, which is, you know, a strange and unfortunate place to live. But Tom Tillis knows better. Tom Tillis knew better. And the fact that he can only find moral fortitude or a backbone or, you know, some part of his frontal lobe once he's decided not to run.

I think makes the ignition and the, you know, not even a mea culpa, it makes it even worse. Like, on some level, it might have been better if he had just shut up and not said this, because I find it utterly enraging. And what's even worse is we know from a lot of reporting that during the Hexeth nomination, MAGA folks, like, leaned on Tillis, threatened Tillis. He felt threatened for offering some mild criticism and maybe suggesting that he wasn't going to vote for him. So we already know that story. And, like, the idea that Thomas Tillis wouldn't just be like, you know, he could have had a moment where you're like, yeah, no, I was threatened and these people are crazy and now I'm retiring to get away from this. Like, he could have just said that and not have to pretend that it's all the information I had at the time. Or, like, RFK Jr. Bill Cassidy made me do it.

Blame Bill Cassidy, just like that t-shirt with an arrow. But also the passage of time. It's like, bro, there's been no passage of time. It's like yesterday that these guys were confirmed. What are you talking about? Nice try. We're still living in this time space continuum. We all have the information. Don't even try it. To try and pretend that like he's come to a realization after the passage of time, given more information, if he'd known then what he knows now. I mean, give me a break. It's just so, and he's like, just watching him and he's like, you know, he's got a pep in his step now and he's feeling better. You know, everyone should watch the rest of the interview with Pepper. And you know, he does say like plenty of critical things about the Trump White House, which makes you realize.

Like, where were you when you thought you might be running for re-election? And how many other Republican senators are thinking the same thing and just doing this bullshit anyway? Still, in year 10 of this. This is why I feel like there really is a special place in the underworld for people who do better and continue on and just say, because it's just a revelation that it's just power. And once power, it's the pursuit of power over literally everything else, including our democracy. And once you relinquish that fight for power or the fight to hold on for power, you can actually be a person with integrity. I mean, that's just, you've ceded your integrity once you've made that bargain.

Let's talk about what Democrats are doing and not doing. It's been a week since Trump signed his economic plan into law. And according to a new report from Lauren Egan at the Bulwark, some Democratic electeds are getting cold feet about going on offense because the popular parts of the bill, like the thousand dollar investment accounts for newborns and no tax on tips on overtime or overtime, they go into effect right away. And of course, the Medicaid cuts, or at least most of the Medicaid cuts and most of the snap cuts don't kick in until later. In the piece, Democratic pollster Linda Lake said she's worried about voters concluding that Democrats are just crying wolf again. What do you think of that?

I worry. I do worry. I mean, I think the fact that the Medicaid cuts are delayed until after the 2026 midterms and that there are going to be other sweeteners that kick in before then, the American public has the attention span of a fruit fly. I mean, I will never forget, John, and we talked about this. I think I had you as a guest on my MSNBC show when I went to Michigan and talked to like 25-year-old union workers who were working on projects that were funded by the Inflation Reduction Act that were literally being put to work by something Joe Biden and the Democrats passed, and they...

both did not get Biden credit for that and were much more interested in Donald Trump. So just because something in Washington seems like it should either benefit or harm one group of people doesn't necessarily mean that the fallout will fall along the logical lines. And I think it's entirely possible that this is one of those things, in part because it's massive. It was passed in the dead of night. People are going to hold on to different parts of it. And like you said, people won't feel necessarily the worst effects of it for a little while. And so I do think it's incumbent on Democrats. I mean, listen, I think the party needs to be more proactive generally, right? It's so much of a responsive, back-footed stance. And there needs to be so, I mean,

I get it. Like, it's hard. They're not the governing majority. Trump every day is setting something on fire. But the party needs to coalesce and figure out its priorities and then get aggressive because just simply being a receptacle for Trump dissatisfaction or outrage is not going to be enough in the next two years or the next four.

Yeah. And look, it may be enough in the midterms, but I also think, of course, Democrats should put together a proactive vision for what they want to get done. Now, I think there's a challenge, which is you want to put together a forward-looking agenda and something that will actually inspire people to vote for you, not just that you're not Donald Trump or not Republicans. But Democrats also can't promise, at least in advance of the midterms, that that agenda has any chance of being enacted if you vote for a Democratic Congress. Okay, first of all, I'll just say, I think the House is one thing, the Senate's another. And I know Democrats have designs on the Senate because of the passage of the one big, beautiful bill. And I do think that that's where, you know, that's where I think everything should be handled. Like a healthy amount of skepticism should attend any predictions that some of these harder seats are going to be easier wins because of this bill, right? I do think the American public is...

largely smart enough to know that the Democrats can't pass anything until they are given power. But I do think there needs to be some kind of statement of principles because it does feel a bit rudderless. And it is hard because the Democratic Party really is, as my colleague and friend Nicole Wallace always says, like it's the pro-democracy coalition, right? It's a massive tent. And figuring out, you know, how to sift through the remains of the election and even what's happening in the Trump administration, what to prioritize is going to be really difficult. But it is OK to be quiet now in circle wagons. But I do think there needs to be something that is not about Trump, but it is about the Democratic Party and what the party stands for and is a statement of priorities.

And around affordability. And I think partly because we also have to be honest about how people feel and what has gone into effect, right? Like we can't, the worry about the Medicaid cuts not hitting until after the midterms, that is real and that is valid. And what we can't do is go out there and just pretend that they've happened when they haven't happened, which like you can see. And, but...

Also, as we know, whether you're a Democratic Republican president or Democratic Republican Congress, people hold you responsible for how they're feeling in their own lives. And if prices have not come down, if people if the trade war kicks up again, if interest rates are still high, which clearly Trump knows, which is why he's like threatening to fire Jerome Powell every day. If the lived experience of most voters by the time we get to next November is not great or has not improved, then the worry about specific provisions of the bill and when they take effect, I think will fade into the background a little bit. But that's still. Your point remains, which is Democrats should be fighting that not just by saying we're not that, but like, you know, if you put us into power in 26 and then in 28, if we win, this is the agenda that we want to pass. This is what we want to do for people. Like, I think that is critical. And I think even immigration, like that could be a more resonant issue given the draconian approach Trump has taken. But it's not just about saying this is wrong and telling the stories. That's the first piece of it. The second is, what are you going to do? Like, what's the plan?

Well, as you said, you know, the party has a number of different efforts to find a pathway out of the wilderness here. The latest is from a band of about 30 Democratic officials that launched this week. It's called Majority Democrats, which the New York Times describes as, quote, a number of prominent younger Democrats with records of winning tough races who have, quote, big ambitions to remake their party's image, recruit a new wave of candidates and challenge political orthodoxies they say are holding the party back. Some of the names involved, Abigail Spanberger, Mikey Sherrill, Ruben Gallego, Alyssa Slotkin. So some of the big names in the Democratic Party, up and coming big names in the Democratic Party. They say there's no ideological litmus test and they don't have a policy agenda just yet. But several Democrats involved told the Times.

They're focused on issues around, quote, affordability, safety, challenging the power of big tech. What do you think? Good idea? Bad idea? Need more info? I mean, I'm not going to dismiss anything. First of all, I think this should be a moment of like policy rumspring up. You know what I mean? I feel like everybody should be like going for it. And I think if there's one thing Democrats should learn from the example of the Trump administration and MAGA world is be not afraid. Like, go out there. Like, it is one thing. I mean, it is the one thing I'll give them is like there is a boldness with which she has acted. And I do think the American public wants they want forward movement. And I think, you know, Democrats.

Obviously, they need to think about electability. They need to think about what's going to win. But I think this is the moment when there should be, you know, a lot of spitballing. And if this group... filled with winners can create an environment where people can talk really strategically, but also, also with frankness and looseness and like come up with ideas. I'm all for it. I think my concern is like, I don't just want it to be about what wins because I think that is a, I mean, it's obviously a hugely important piece of this, but like there need, there needs to be like, this is the petri dish part of the, of the science experiment. And there needs to be a sense of, um, I mean, as dark as these times are.

it is a moment where so much is possible you know like you like there are a lot of ideas that could fly like we exist in a climate where the unthinkable is happening and that is largely being interpreted in the sort of negative but i also think the old ways are outmoded in a lot of respects and therefore that's huge opportunity and democrats should try and capture some of that possibility and to the extent that they can be joyful and creative about what the solutions are and the party really needs to recapture that because there's so much sorrow and sadness and a lot of it is well placed but now is the time to experiment and to and to be big and so if there's a bunch of new people coming up with a like you know a lunchtime sandwich conclave to talk about what has to happen like go for it you know do it do it like go forth and truly prosper because like without that excitement of new ideas new strategies I don't I don't know what happens in 2028. But like the one thing about MAGA, the one thing about Trump, you go to those rallies, you hear him speak. There is a passion and a verb and excitement and a feeling of like kinetic energy. And I largely find it much of it morally abominable. But that is something that like the left needs to find. So I guess that's my feeling about it. No, I mean, Donald Trump promised has been promising since 2015 to burn it all down. And in this term.

He is doing his very best to burn it all down. And whatever remains is not going to be much. And the silver lining there is we can think about how to rebuild from scratch this country and this government that Donald Trump is doing his best to destroy. And I do think that can push us to think outside the box. I don't think voters vote for people based on like a checklist of policies. But I do think one thing that's similar to Donald Trump's elections and even, you know, just for a more recent example, Zoran Mondani's election is.

They were policy ideas, but they were policy ideas that are sort of easy to latch onto. They grab your attention. They stick in the mind, right? Like, oh, you know that Zoran is for freezing the rent, right? You know that free city buses just broke through. And Donald Trump is for building the wall. You just knew that. And you need these policy ideas that are big, bold, but also easily accessible, stick with people, go directly to what their concerns and hopes are, which has been around affordability for a couple decades now, but certainly over the last couple years when inflation hit. So, you know, I think that figuring those policies out, and like you said, they've got to be...

We have some fresh ones too, right? Like, I mean, we always joke about this, but like we've been, I've been in democratic politics for 20 years and we laugh about how many times like, you know, democratic politicians are out there being like, I'm going to, I'm going to give tax breaks to companies that create jobs here in America and stop giving tax breaks to companies that ship jobs overseas. Like it's the same shit that has pulled well for 20 years and pollsters will tell you it's like, you can't, you need to break through and you need to grab people's attention. So big and bold. Yes, but also new. And I do think, yeah, and not too many, but just a couple that really grab people.

Be free. Think of it as ideas, Woodstock. I mean, I know it's hard, right? But it is a remarkable moment in American politics for a party to fully, not reinvent itself, but be wholly responsive to this kind of, you know, moment of uncertainty and look at it as a moment of opportunity. I know that sounds Pollyannish or like overwrought or whatever, but I do think capturing some sense of opportunity and like ambition in this moment is essential. One last thing I got here on my list. I need to get your thoughts on Nazi Grok.

Speaking of uncertainty and ambition. That's how we're going to end. You know, last Friday, Elon Musk announced that Grok had been improved and was better than ever. So people started testing that proposition. And in response to various questions, admittedly leading, Grok did the following. Praise Hitler. Went on an insane rant against people with Jewish last names. Vividly described a theoretical sexual encounter with Twitter CEO Linda Yaccarino, who stepped down on Thursday.

Then overnight, just last night, we're recording this on a Thursday, Elon said that the new version, the new new version has been released. And this one, you're going to be able to have in your Tesla. So I don't know if you'd be driving around in your Tesla and hearing Hitler praise or what, but this is what's happening. It's all happening on X, the everything app. I mean, it's just perfect. It's exactly...

what we should expect. I got an email at one point a long time ago. I was thinking of buying a Tesla and I like somehow got on their mailing list. And it was this long kind of like a mission statement about Tesla's commitment to the environment. And I very quickly, I almost wrote back like, how dare, how dare you? Like, go fuck yourself. Like you have betrayed the fundamental principles of all the things that are good about environmentalism. And that, I mean, just how dare you try to do this right now? I think it was on Grok Nazi day that this went. So.

So like this both tells me that we're doomed. I know I just, right? Like this is also like an AI, this is an AI discussion as much as it is an X discussion. I left Twitter like a long time ago because I just couldn't keep up. And then I had every excuse in the world because it's, you know, a toxic swamp. But, you know, I guess the theme of this episode is like you get what you pay for. Like this is a person who has, you know, took X over to allow the flourishing of like hate speech and misinformation. And I mean, are we surprised that this is the thing that he built?

I honestly read about this and I was like, I don't, I don't, by the way, Linda Iaccarino insists that her leaving the company had nothing to do with any of this. Which, you know, could be very true. Entirely coincidental. How many of us have had lewd AI Nazi bots explaining sexual fantasies about us? And, you know, that's a Tuesday. That's a Tuesday. So, I mean. I do think it probably, for me at least, it's definitely more of an AI story and also the limits of what.

artificial intelligence is going to be able to do the dangers of what it could do. And, but, but the limits of what it can do, at least in relation to what people in Silicon Valley, like Elon Musk, like Peter Thiel, like all these other assholes think that it can do, which is we're going to create something so intelligent that it's going to be able to solve all the problems that these messy humans have not been able to solve. And especially these idiots in government, right? Because, but we are going to create the super intelligence, but it's like the intelligence is based on all the rest of the shit that's out there in the world. that is put into the world by humans, including some very awful humans who said the kind of things on X that Grok has been trained on. And so at the very best, you're always going to get an amalgamation. Artificial intelligence is always going to be an amalgamation of like everyone else's intelligence, of us, right? For all, for ill and for mostly ill. Yeah, we're pretty ill right now. If we want to build, if we think we're going to have these systems, these AI systems that we're supposed to trust to give us like factual information and the truth and we already have a crisis and trust in this country that has led us here and this shit's going to happen.

I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, and I do worry there's like a whole subset of people for whom it's like, well, finally, validation and vindication about, you know, my like great race theory, Grock AI proving the case. You know, I mean, that is the other dark side of this is there's a whole bunch of people who are like, why do you have to change the algorithm? Seem fine to me. Yeah. I just, I mean, it's like you eat poison, you get poison. And that's kind of where we're at. Little Grock. Little Grock is just feeding on the shit of the 21st century. And so it goes. That is for a man who like loves shoveling shit. So here we are. Grock. Well, that is.

Well, that is a perfect place to end. Yeah, cool. Alex Wagner, thank you so much for joining Positive America, for coming on. Thank you for going on vacation, Dan. The big pile of shit that we had to wade through today. That was fun. It was fun to do it with you. No one I'd rather be swamped in fecal matter with. Thank you so much, John. Thank you so much.

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I'm Erin Haines, journalist and expert on all things Southern politics. And I'm Jennifer Palmieri, former White House Communications Director. Tune in on Mondays to Long Play Series on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Joining us today is Ana Ramon, executive director of the Texas Leadership Pipeline and Annie's List, two organizations that recruit, train, and help elect Democrats up and down the ballot in Texas. Ana and Texas Leadership Pipeline recently partnered with Vote Save America as part of our effort to help our audience, people just like you, run for office in Texas, Arizona, and North Carolina. We wanted to have her on to talk a little bit about that effort, what it'll take to turn Texas blue, and why you shouldn't be afraid to take the plunge and run for office in your community. Ana, welcome to the pod. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. So first and foremost, can you tell us a little bit about the work that you do with Texas Leadership Pipeline?

Absolutely. A lot of it is the quiet behind the scenes sneaking around, you know, classic Texas politics activities. We want to find the next county commissioner of Hood County. We want to find the next county commissioner of Nueces County. We want to dig deep. And what that takes is that qualitative and quantitative approach to building what we term a groundswell of candidates coming from the top, not only the top four counties, but what is the top 10, the top 25 counties, as you mentioned.

Turning Texas blue will take people pushing up as much as it takes people pushing down. So it's having those one-on-one conversations with candidates. It's helping candidates understand how much it really takes to get from signing your name up and putting your $25 down to raising, if you're running for a state house, like $1.2 million to take out a Republican candidate, right? So it's all that in between. And what's really exciting is getting to meet the people along the way and really testing the map in Texas across what I would deem six states in one state.

Yeah. You guys have you have races all up and down the ballot and you're trying to recruit candidates for races all up and down the ballot. And I realize there's a lot of uncontested races. And by uncontested, I mean there's a Republican and there's not even a Democrat running. And can you give us an idea, at least in Texas, like what is the scope of races that go uncontested? Why aren't they contested? And are they unwinnable or are they just races that we might be able to win if we could just find candidates to run?

Well, I'm sure these fun facts have been shared on the pod before. We have 254 counties. We have thousands of school board races. We have thousands of city council races, countless commissioner races. And what it takes is both that really the people power and investing in individuals, but it also takes resources to really think about what does a six region, six state approach look like in Texas. When I talk to national entities and organizations, I ask them, like, when you look at Texas, do you think about us in a Virginia to the Carolinas kind of aspect? And we need the kind of people who are willing to run almost in multi-states to really get that same ROI. You know, we're looking at.

Who knows how much opportunity? And that's what we see in the people who are in Texas. So it takes what we see as more of that people power and having essentially strong conduits and platforms like yourself teaming up with us to really reach an audience that we wouldn't normally get a chance to talk to. We have to democratize. the very undemocratic process of running in campaigns, right? I'm sure you know this better than I do. Like we live in a world where barriers exist to raising money, to actually understanding what makes sense for you to run for, to even like, what does it mean to run for office? Like there are barriers along the way. What data does it take to get there? So what we're trying to do is that wide net of catching people who are that untraditional candidate. We have to find those individuals, those untraditional, non-traditional candidates. It's what's going to get us people who can outperform top of ticket, who understand their district, understand their community. And I would almost argue most importantly, understand themselves to really go against the barriers that are erected in Texas.

We always joke about being Texas tough. I'm like maybe more like Texas punched in the teeth like to run for office. Like it's a tough role. And you need people who are willing to not be afraid of the far right pushback, not be afraid of even, you know, personal and individual attacks, right? Even like physical attacks and what that can mean. So what that looks like is really doing that large catch. At this point, we've been able to identify about 35,000 people outside of the major cores that want to run for office in Texas. But we also have, of course, the quantitative piece and the qualitative piece is the individuals. We have three full-time scouts who are on the ground.

year-round, talking to people at running office, creating warming events where we get people in the room, and last but not least, even knocking on doors and dragging them to go sign up to run, because that's what it takes to get someone to run in Oyster Creek, Texas, right? So there's a lot in between that. But ultimately, having, again, these kind of partnerships and relationships with folks like Vote Save America. you guys are able to talk to a whole group of people who we just don't have access to. As much as I like to think like when I tweet out I get 1.9 million listeners, that's just not the case. But it could be folks like at home who are listening to this right now who is, you know, a mom having margarita or like a dad who just got home off of work. Like we need those individuals who understand who they are in their community to really take on the apparatus, which is the far right and the effort to control not only the soul of Texas, but the soul of our union.

So I'm sure that for a lot of people listening who might live in Texas, people who live in Texas, who've never thought about running for office or maybe you've thought about it, but sort of shied away from it. A couple barriers may be like one. I don't know if I have the right background. I don't know if I have the right skills for this. You know, I'm not well known enough. What if I can't raise money? Do I really is, you know, I'm just kind of scared, like, you know, some of the threats that you talked about, but also just scared of like.

Even if we didn't live in this awful political environment, just putting yourself out there. You know, what are some of the things that you guys and your recruiters like talk to people about who are maybe have thought about running for office, but either decided against it or just sort of on the fence? I have to be brutally honest with people, right? Brutally honest about like how much it'll take the raise, especially on the type of election in Texas and the realities of our state, of course. But I also talk about their why. I think that's such a critical point, because if you do not understand intrinsically why you want to do it, you are more prone to getting torn and quartered in this space.

But like, for example, I'll give an example. I recruited a candidate out of Las Galapas on Broadway, shout out San Antonio, over a margarita. And she knew after seeing the health care system, seeing what happened to her family and what it would mean for her to run. And the next day she found it within herself to raise over months eight to seven hundred thousand dollars to run for a raise. And granted, that's not the typical of the norm, but it's just awakening sometimes that intrinsic thought that.

Truly, people who come from less can achieve more and people who have done less have run for more. Like those are barriers, truly. But you can be the more in your community that takes us because I can say this from personal experience. I've done five and kind of six and a half legislative sessions and multiple cycles in both the House and the Texas Senate. The right person in the wrong room or the right person in the wrong room can make an incredible difference. So to your point, yes, there are barriers, but understanding your why, understanding the realities of running, not running away from those realities, and then partnering with folks, which is really exciting, with Annie's List, but also Latino Victory Fund, Run for Something, entities that can help you get to that next point and tracks that we can put you on. It's not so daunting when you realize you're not alone running. That actually gets me through a lot of the work in our own state in Texas.

So if someone listening comes to the Texas Leadership Pipeline, what kind of support do you offer? We will have hands-on experience because we know, especially in the beginning, you have to understand at least the bare bones in the structure of what it means to run for office. So running 101, Story of Self 101, Finance 101, Field 101, and having that personal touch with our scouts who are doing this year-round work under not only our Texas Leadership Pipeline umbrella, but we are the affiliate for the National Pipeline Fund. So we actually do also have not only our resources, but resources that we're able to share and push people into other tracks and opportunities, if it makes sense. Like, for example, we did a training with...

We did a training with Latino Victory Fund and we connected them with like a broader umbrella of organizations that could help if you're a Latino running for office. The same thing, we're working on something that's LGBTQ focused. We're working on tracks of like, what does it mean to be a pro-immigrant candidate in Texas? So there's innovative ways that, of course, we have more of that one-on-one connection through our larger pipeline and our entity, but we also have our larger network of organizations that we want to make sure we're connecting people to so they can find their track and their people when they're running for office. So I'll ask my political hack question, which is a big cycle coming up in Texas. We've got a Senate race that's on the map. Greg Abbott just announced they're going to try to push for redistricting ahead of the midterms to try to squeeze out a few more gerrymandered seats for Republicans in Texas. Obviously, you guys are dealing with tragedy right now with the floods. Texas over the last couple cycles has gone back and forth from, you know, coming really close to flipping blue to then, you know, some of the folks along the Rio Grande Valley, you know, voting for Trump. And so what does it look like on the ground right now? What are you hearing and seeing? And what hopes do you have for?

What I'm seeing is, which is, well, one, to talk about redistricting, this is a very much like a Bobby Hill, that's not my purse moment. Like, that's not your purse, Greg Abbott. Like, Jesus Christ. Like, what are we doing? Well, I know what we're doing. We're trying to steal races from black and brown congresspeople and constituents. But that's besides that point. What I am seeing is, though, people who are unwilling to give up. And I think we have been having actually multiple conversations about this today. I, you know, even myself in a staff position and capacity, I've had to respond to one too many crises, one too many natural disasters. But I tell myself.

All we have to lose is more lives. So there is something that pushes us. We have so much at stake. Working in Texas is, of course, turning Texas blue is critical. It changes this union, it changes the world, but it also changes lives that I get to see every day, right? Working along and being in community with our brothers and sisters in the valley or what's happening not only in Kerrville, but in surrounding counties, right? Those mass disasters don't have to be making us strong again. Like they could instead not happen because they're preventable. And some of the things that we're seeing on the ground, like we're having communications and conversations with folks who are wanting to talk about being a candidate around.

on natural disasters and like environmental justice, the cancer corridor, we are mapping around and looking at candidates who are surrounding ICE detention facilities or ISDs that work with ICE. Like there are ways to push back because you have community members who are impacted by this daily and they know what it means. If it can, it can, and it doesn't have to, but if it continues. So I am sensing that people are ready to fight and they're very much interested in what a Texas could look like that really reflects the home that I love. And that's not reflected in the Greg Abbott or the Dan Patrick or the, you know, whatever Paxton is right now, like in my lifetime.

I also think that you have this window, in my opinion, coming up in Texas. And I say this, like I will never sell the Texas dream, but I will sell the Texas program. We can move Texas in those 10 counties, but we have to invest in that leadership year round, right? Having those year round conversations, having year round training, having year round platforms where we can continue to talk to people because whoever is going to win this state may not even be in electoral politics right now. And we got to get them that hand up because I wholeheartedly believe in my lifetime.

Because I'm 36 and I have to believe this because there's little left in Texas but hope and dreams. But I have to believe that I'll work for a U.S. senator from Texas as a Democrat at some point. Because I see the people on the ground actually moving and shaking and working. Even though we are sometimes, yes, the beginning of democracy. And I don't want to see Texas be the end of democracy. There's so much that can happen. Four or five new congressional seats, hopefully in the other direction. More electoral college votes because we have some of the fastest growing populations in the country. But what it will take is making sure that those people who have the opportunity are invested in.

really. And we can do that by investing in the people power of Texas. Well, I believe that you will work for a Democratic senator in Texas one day. And I also know that whoever that senator is, they will be extremely lucky to have you working for them. And we are extremely lucky that you are doing the work you're doing in Texas. And we're so very excited that you guys are partnering with Vote Save America. And anyone who is listening, who's from Texas, who lives in Texas, who knows people in Texas or.

North Carolina or Arizona, the other two states that we're doing this in, please think about running for office because if you do and you're in Texas, you have wonderful people like Ana who will help you out, which we love. And already, you know, this has just been a week, we have been like bowled over by the number of you listening who have reached out and decided to sign up and say that you want to run for office. We just never expected the response that we got. We know it would be good because we love you guys, but we were just, we were overwhelmed by the response. So that's good news. Ana, thank you so much for all the work you're doing and thank you for joining Pod Save America. I appreciate it. My pleasure. And thank you for being willing to take a chance on Texas.

And if you don't live in Texas, North Carolina, or Arizona, but you still want to run for office, we love that. Please reach out to Vote Save America and sign up for Vote Save America at votesaveamerica.com. And the folks at VSA will put you in touch with people in your state, in your region, in your area, who are helping people run for office and giving people support to run for office. So it's not just Texas, North Carolina, and Arizona. If you're anywhere and you want to run for office, reach out and we will help you out. You can sign up at votesaveamerica.com slash run. That's our show for today. Dan's back on Sunday with an interview with Mark Cuban. Make sure you check that out. Have a good weekend, everyone.

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free or get access to our subscriber Discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the Pod community at crooked.com slash friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, please consider leaving us a review to help boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Long Play, our docuseries exploring the people and forces shaping the South, is back. Newsflash, the South is the new political epicenter of the country. Democrats are way on their heels in this region, but Republicans are going through their own reckoning in the South, too. We're in the final stretch of the midterms, and the political map has only gotten more competitive, with new states and districts emerging as potential flips. So we thought it was time to get back out on the road and take a closer look at what's actually happening on the ground. I'm Erin Haines, journalist and expert on all things Southern politics. And I'm Jennifer Palmieri, former White House Communications Director. Tune in on Mondays to Long Play Series on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

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