Nine Lives With Jeff King: Live Your Best One

In this final episode of Season 9, we journey into the Head Center, home to Types 5, 6, and 7, and the center that perhaps more than any other knows what it is to live in a mind that simply will not be still. Panelists Gerry Gebhart (Type 5), Joy Wray (Type 6), and Marnie Thomson (Type 7) engage in an honest and sometimes disarming conversation about what it's like to think for a living — not as a choice, but as a way of being in the world. Together they explore the particular kind of restlessness that hums beneath the surface of all three types: a mind in constant motion, scanning, sorting, preparing, anticipating. "If I don't know, I can't prepare." "My mind is constant activity." These statements reveal what goes on inside the mind of this Center of Intelligence. And what's going on, it turns out, is a deep and largely unconscious negotiation with fear. Not the dramatic fear of crisis, but the low-grade, ever-present anxiety of not knowing whether you'll have enough — enough knowledge, enough certainty, enough options — when the moment of need arrives. Richard Rohr reminds us that the Head Center's great longing is for inner guidance: the capacity to trust what arises from within rather than perpetually scanning what lies ahead. This episode doesn't resolve that tension so much as honor it — and in honoring it, perhaps loosens its grip just a little. It's fascinating to observe the professional lives of our panelist. Gerry is a retired pharmacist. Joy is a nurse and adjunct instructor. Marnie is a Professor of Anthropology. Seems fitting for Head Center types!

What does it mean to lead — or love, or live — from the heart? Not sentiment, not emotion management, but the deep, often aching intelligence of the Heart Center. This episode features panelists who know this terrain from the inside: Bill Reed (Type 2), Leslie Quilico (Type 3), and George Patton (Type 4). Together, they represent the Enneagram's Heart Triad — three distinct responses to the same fundamental questions: Am I worthy of love as I am? Who am I? Twos give to belong. Threes perform to be seen. Fours long for what feels perpetually just out of reach. And underneath all three patterns we find the same quiet ache: the fear that who they actually are might not be quite enough. The Heart Center is also a map of extraordinary capacity. Empathy, attunement, depth of feeling, the ability to move people — these are the gifts that emerge when the Heart types inhabit their own lives rather than the stories they've been telling about themselves. This is a rich, honest conversation about image and identity, shame and authenticity, and what it looks like to stop performing your life and start living it. This episode is an invitation into the deeper country of the heart. You can find Bill at https://www.enneagramchicago.com

What does it mean to know something in your gut? The Body Center — home to Enneagram Types 8, 9 and 1 — carries a wisdom that lives below the neck. These three types share a gut-level intelligence rooted in instinct, presence, and an instinctive relationship with anger. But each one navigates that anger in a strikingly different way. This episode features a panel with Joanne Flowers (Type 8), Jack Killen (Type 9), and Trime Persinger (Type 1). Together we dive into an honest, grounded conversation about what it's like to live from the body's intelligence — the drive for right action, the ache for autonomy, and the longing for a peace that doesn't require you to disappear. Whether your own center of intelligence is Head, Heart, or Body, this panel will invite you deeper into the embodied wisdom your soul has been carrying all along. Jack is a featured author in Personality and Wholeness in Therapy. Trime is the author of Crossing the Bridge: Heal Your Relationships with Courageous Communication. Find out more about Trime at https://www.trimepersinger.com

What if your first move — when life gets hard, uncertain, or morally murky — is to look for what's right? For Enneagram Types 1, 2, and 6, that's not rigidity. That's how they're wired to love. This episode explores the Compliant Grouping of the Hornevian Triads — one of three movement patterns that shape how we seek what we most deeply need. While some types turn inward and some move against, the Compliant types characteristically move toward — toward a standard, toward another person's need, toward the safety of a trusted person or community. This isn't weakness. It's a particular way of reaching for connection, meaning, and belonging. This panel features Ryan Vaughn (Type 1), Chris Bay (Type 2), and Craig Hinca (Type 6). Together they explore what this outward orientation actually feels like from the inside — and why it's so often misread by the world (and sometimes by themselves) as people-pleasing, rule-following, or anxious dependency. What others may experience as compliance is often something far more searching: a longing to be good, to be needed, and to belong somewhere safe enough to trust. Learn more about Ryan's work at https://www.greenbush.org/center-of-community-supports/leadership-coaching For more on Chris, go to https://lifesuccesslegacy.com For more on Craig, check out his LinkedIn page or go to https://churchwell.co 

What if your first move — when life gets hard, overwhelming, or just too loud — is to go inward? For Enneagram Types 4, 5, and 9, that's not avoidance. That's home. This episode explores the Withdrawn Grouping of the Hornevian Triads — one of three movement patterns that shape how we seek what we most deeply need. While some types move toward others and some move against, the Withdrawn types characteristically turn inward: into feeling and imagination, into the life of the mind, into stillness and inner sanctuary. This panel features Eric Blois (Type 9), Brandon Graves (Type 4), and Katarina Bednar (Type 5). Together they explore what this inward movement actually feels like from the inside — and why it's often misread by the world (and sometimes by themselves) as disengagement, aloofness, or passivity. What others may experience as withdrawal is often a genuine search: for identity, for understanding, for peace. To learn more about Brandon and his music, go to https://brandongravesmusic.com. Find more about Katarina at https://yellowbug.co. This episode opens a compassionate window into one of the Enneagram's most interior landscapes. Remember, the map is not the territory. But sometimes a good map helps you finally come home to yourself.

This episode introduces the Hornevian Triads, which describe three distinct social stances — the ways we instinctively move in relation to others and the world around us. Every type belongs to one of three groups: Compliant (Ones, Twos, and Sixes), Withdrawn (Fours, Fives, and Nines), or Assertive (Threes, Sevens, and Eights). Understanding which group you belong to can be just as illuminating as knowing your type. We start with a panel representing the Assertive Grouping. Assertives tend to lead with themselves first. They're self-referencing — their inner compass, desire, or agenda naturally orients them before they check in with the room. That's not selfishness. It's a wiring. And recognizing it can change a lot — in the workplace, in relationships, and in how you lead. Representing Type 3 is Michele Lonergan. Representing Type 7 is Anthony Pleetanino. And Type 8 is represented by Rachel Leduc. Learn more about Rachel and her work at https://www.rachel-leduc.com

This episode concludes our exploration of the Enneagram's Harmonic Triads, which describe common ways people respond to conflict, stress, and disappointment. In previous episodes, we explored the Catalyzer Grouping (Types 4, 6, and 8) and the Positive Outlook Grouping (Types 2, 7, and 9). In this episode, we focus on the Competency (or Efficiency) Grouping—Types 1, 3, and 5. People in this group tend to respond to problems by stepping back, analyzing the situation, and finding the most effective solution. Their goal is to identify what's wrong and fix it so progress can continue. In this process, emotions may be set aside in favor of objectivity and efficiency. This panel discussion explores the goals, motivations, and strategies Competency Types use to address problems and resolve conflict. Panelists include Stephen Garlow (Type 1), Lynda Rands (Type 3), and Eric Woolf (Type 5).

What happens when we encounter conflict, stress, or disappointment? The Enneagram's Harmonic Triad reveals patterned ways of responding that various Enneagram Types hold in common. In this episode, we explore the Catalyzer—also known as the Intensifier—group, consisting of Types 4, 6, and 8. Catalyzers push into the tension and meet it with energy, intensity and emotional truth. Their goal is to address the situation clearly and honestly in order to resolve and transform. In this episode we unpack the motivations, emotional dynamics, and growth path of the Catalyzer Harmonic Triad. The panel consists of Dan Kuhlman (Type 4), Lou Flessner (Type 6), and Bill Ryan (Type 8).

This episode explores the Enneagram's Harmonic Triad—specifically the Positive Outlook group. In the Enneagram, the Harmonic Triads describe how we respond when things don't go the way we want. The Positive Outlook group—Types 2, 7, and 9—tend to cope with conflict, disappointment, or pain by reframing, focusing on what's good, or moving toward possibility rather than sitting in the negative. But "positive" doesn't mean shallow or naive. Each of these types has a distinct strategy for staying upbeat—and each comes with its own strengths and blind spots. This panel features Richard Haynes (Type 9), Kimberly Holt (Type 2), and Sister Anna-Camille (Type 7). We hear how each experiences conflict, avoids or reframes discomfort, and how they gravitate toward optimism. Find more about Richard at https://empowerpotentialcoaching.com Find more about Kimberly at https://councilforrelationships.org/therapist/kimberly-holt-ms-mft Learn more about Sister Anna-Camille's community at https://stplacid.org  

Identifying the Enneagram Type we lead with is often a journey of self-discovery. While online assessments can point us in the right direction, they are not precise instruments. A more reliable process for discovering and clarifying your Enneagram Type is the Enneagram Type Discovery Interview—often called a Typing Interview. Facilitated by a trained Enneagram teacher or practitioner, the Typing Interview creates space to explore your core motivations, fears, and internal biases at a deeper level than online tests. In this episode, I sit down with my good friend, Tom Wells, and guide him through the Typing Interview process. You'll get an inside look at what a Typing Interview is like and why it's so important to move beyond surface behaviors to uncover the motivations that drive our Enneagram Type. As you listen, you may gain fresh insight into the Enneagram Type you lead with—and perhaps decide that a Typing Interview would be a valuable next step in your own Enneagram journey. My sincere thanks to Tom for generously allowing us to witness his process. Tom and his wife are the owners of Wells Virtual Bookkeeping, LLC, a bookkeeping service supporting small businesses. Find out more at https://www.wellsvirtualbookkeeping.com. 

In this honest and heartfelt conversation, I sit down with David Hayward — also known as The Naked Pastor — to explore his journey of self-discovery, healing, and creative expression. David opens up about his path through discouragement, his passion for social justice, and how discovering he leads with Enneagram Type Four felt like a "born again" moment that brought him home to himself. We talk about art, music, writing, and the emotional toll of standing up for what's right. Known for his powerful cartoons and bold honesty, David continues to inspire with his vulnerability and vision. Tune in for a moving episode about purpose, transformation, and asking the big question: how long is the arc of justice? Find David (The Naked Pastor) at nakedpastor.com or on your favorite social platform. For powerful cartoons, go to https://nakedpastor.com/collections/digital-cartoons

Kathy Escobar returns to Nine LIves to explore the joys and struggles of living in community—especially through the lens of an Enneagram Two. She opens up about learning to set boundaries, navigating faith shifts, and the deeply personal journey of learning to receive help. In this powerful episode, Kathy shares how the loss of her son to suicide continues to shape her story and her ongoing evolution. She speaks candidly about grief, healing, and the loss of a faith community—and how those experiences have deepened her understanding of compassion and connection. Kathy highlights the crucial stretch for Enneagram Twos: receiving help from others. Kathy draws from the nurturing nature of Type 2 to create safe, authentic spaces through The Refuge in Denver and CommunityHeals, which she co-leads with her husband, Jose. She's also the author of several books, including her latest: Turning Over Tables: A Lenten Call for Disrupting Power. Learn more at kathyescobar.com and communityheals.com.

Leslie Quilico offers an honest and insightful look at life through the lens of an Enneagram Type Three. While Threes are known for their drive and success, Leslie shares how she's learning that there is more to life. That said, she's also learning to embrace her drive for meaningful accomplishment. A natural achiever, she admits: "If we can make it a competition, it will be more fun!" — yet she challenges herself (and us) to stay grounded in what really matters. As a leadership coach and Certified TrustCentric Guide, Leslie blends Enneagram wisdom with her passion for trust-building, especially among women leaders and small businesses. She drops gems like: ✨ "Everyone can have a PhD in doing what you say you're going to do." ✨ "If you're willing to do the work at work, it affects your whole life." ✨ "Trust is simple—follow through with your promises." Connect with Leslie on LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook, or reach her at [email protected] or [email protected].

Enneagram Eight energy is on full display in this episode with author and award-winning drama teacher Deborah Baldwin. With a no-nonsense approach and big-picture leadership, Deb is all about meaningful work and cutting through the noise. Her passion for theater education shines in her book, We're Live! Radio Theater #101, which brings a fresh, engaging approach to teaching drama through the exciting genre of radio theater. Though she calls herself a newcomer to the Enneagram, Deborah puts on a clinic in understanding Type Eight. She's driven, bold, and unafraid to take charge. She leads with confidence, pushes for results, and struggles with those who get stuck in negativity. We also see the often-overlooked tender side of the Enneagram Eight. Deb exemplifies how self-awareness and personal growth leads to balance, integration, and a deeper sense of purpose. Her book is available on Amazon Check out dramamommaspeaks.com to fine additional teaching resources. Follow her on social media at #dramamommaspeaks.

Brian Mueller on the Enneagram One Journey Brian Mueller shares his experience as an Enneagram One, exploring the inner critic's powerful call to "do the right thing." Brian discusses how recognizing his Type One structure helps him regulate it, using awareness and practice to avoid being confined by his Type.  Brian also highlights the ongoing work of returning to presence—not just getting grounded, but continually regrounding. He helps men discover identity and purpose through powerfully unique processes through  Illuman. Find his poetry at brianmueller.com. Find his work with spiritual formation at Choosing Presence.

In this episode, I sit down with Brandon Graves and unpack the patterns and structure of the Enneagram Four. Like many, Brandon initially mistyped himself, thinking he was a Three. Over time, he discovered his true home in Four. Brandon shares key insights into the core traits of Fours—deep emotions, comparison, envy, and the ongoing pursuit of feeling "enough." Beyond the Enneagram, Brandon is an accomplished drummer, instructor, and studio musician. He plays with various bands, including his wife's band, Christena Graves, and regularly performs at Vintage Church in Lawrence, KS. 🔗 Connect with Brandon on his social media handle, @beatcaster, and: 🌐 brandongravesmusic.com 🌐 christenagravesmusic.com

Shelby Hay shares her journey as an entrepreneur through the lens of an Enneagram Four. She opens up about the highs and lows of business, the struggle with comparison, and the challenge of feeling "not enough." With honesty and creativity, Shelby reveals how she overcame self-doubt and found joy in the process. She offers practical tools to break free from self-defeating emotions and Enneagram Fours' pattern of envy. Her insights serve as a great resource to all Enneagram Fours! Discover more about her work at Sunny Day Party Art and follow her on social media under the same name.

Musician, pastor, leader and all-around-great-human John Flynn reflects on the stuff of life that really matters. John emphasizes the role of community in creating a balanced, healthy life as well as shaping our approach to leadership. As an Enneagram Type One, John has firsthand experience navigating the drive for perfection. Through his music, leadership, and relationships, he continues to soften the inner critic, exemplifying the arc of growth within the Type One structure. An accomplished guitarist, John plays with several bands and can be heard most Sundays at Vintage Church in Lawrence, KS, where he also serves as the Community Life Pastor. For more about Vintage, go to https://vintagelawrence.com  Find out more about the Enneagram and the work of Transmuto at https://www.transmuto.org 

David Tensen returns to the show to explore the importance of "eldering"—living with sacrificial love in later life. He introduces key concepts like "decentric eldering," "transcend and include," and "stages of faith." Based in Australia, David exemplifies how healthy Enneagram Nines show up and make a meaningful impact in the world. He's also a poet, author, and advocate for emotionally healthy spirituality. Learn more about David and his work, including his latest project with the Collective Wisdom Academy, at www.davidtensen.com.  

This episode wraps up Season Seven of Nine Lives, where we've been exploring the Enneagram through panel work.  Our finale focuses on Enneagram Six. Dan Gregg, Christine Flower and Craig Hinca join me in an engaging and insightful examination of the Enneagram Six structure. A key feature of Type 6 is the ongoing thought process Sixes experience. Their thoughts consist of worries, doubts and planning for safety and security. As the panelists describe, one thought leads to another and to another and to another--like tree branches or spider webs; unending and connected. Dan, Christine and Craig detail their processes of overcoming worry and fear, learning to trust their own agency. They provide insights to silencing their inner committees and gaining permission to stop planning and strategizing. Dan is a retired paramedic and firefighter. He is currently studying to be chef and is a transformational speaker. You can follow Dan on Instagram @jdangregg66. Christine is an educator and blogger. Her website is https://thecenterededucator.com and you can follow her on Instagram @thecenterededucator. Craig is an administrative analyst and consultant, spiritual director, licensed minister and artist. Follow him on Instagram @craighinca, contact him at [email protected], and find more of his work at https://churchwell.co Find more about Jeff's work at https://www.transmuto.org/ 

Billie McGraw, Cindy Payne and Lynda Rands join together in this robust panel of Enneagram Threes. As is clear from these panelists, the Enneagram Three structure is one of energy, drive, productivity, and performing. At the top of the list comes efficiency, which can be both a superpower for the Three, but also can be their blind spot. Billie, Cindy and Lynda venture into vulnerable territory as they discuss the deceitful side of the Three structure. They explore other features of Type 3, such as Threes' reputation of being chameleons and their struggle with feelings.  They raise the question, "Is there anything productive in knowing how I feel? Why does it matter how I feel when the job needs to get done?" Billie is a real estate agent in Flagstaff. You can follow her on Instagram @Flagstaffrealtorbilliemcgraw. Her website is https://billiemcgraw.com/ Cindy is an executive director of a nonprofit and is a self-proclaimed failure at retirement. Upon retiring, she promptly earned her PhD. She also resides in Flagstaff. Lynda has been a coach and resides in the greater St. Louis area. For more on Jeff's work, go to https://www.transmuto.org/ 

Roger Hornbeck, Cody Harris and Josiah Goff comprise this panel of those leading with Enneagram Type 5. The Enneagram 5 structure is built around analyzing, assessing and calculating as the go-to strategy for self-protection. Enneagram Fives employ an internal energy calculus to filter their feelings and assess their participation in life.   Leading with Type 5, Roger, Cody and Josiah possess natural cognitive intelligence that resides in the head center of the Enneagram. They trace their respective journeys of deepening their human experience by developing emotional intelligence, based in the heart center of the Enneagram. This, in turn, has led them to deeper, more effective relationships. Roger is a spiritual director and speaker. He and is wife, Sharon, lead the organization Transformation of the Heart (www.transformationoftheheart.com).  Cody and Josiah host EnneagramFive (www.enneagramfive.com), a podcast devoted to, you guessed it, exploring Enneagram Type 5.  Find out more about Jeff's work at www.transmuto.org.

Panelists Kat Lipka, Kimberly Holt and Kezia Shine form this panel of Enneagram Twos and brilliantly describe the Type 2 structure. The constant, underlying energy of Enneagram Two consists of giving attention to others' needs and longing to be helpful. While this is one of Type 2's superpowers, it also can be a blind spot for 2's.  Kat, Kimberly and Kezia unpack this tension with clarity and vulnerability. Our conversation reveals their hearts of compassion and natural gifts of bringing healing to others. Together, they demonstrate the incredible gifts that Enneagram Twos bring to our world. Kat works with The Educator Academy, Kansas City, whose mission is to prepare teachers to create transformative and equitable classroom experiences for all students in the communities they serve. Find more at https://educator-academy.org. Kezia is a chiropractor in the Kansas City metro area. Find more at https://www.drshinekc.com. You can also follow her on Facebook and on Instagram @drkeziashine. Kimberly is a couples and family therapist in the Philadelphia area. You can find more at https://councilforrelationships.org/therapist/kimberly-holt-ms-mft. Find more about Jeff's work at https://www.transmuto.org. 

Cherri Rodriguez, Andy Houltberg and Richard Haynes join me to form an Enneagram Nine panel. Our conversation proves quite engaging for four Nines!!! Our panelists discuss the harmonizing energy of the Nine structure that continuously operates at the gut level. While Enneagram Nines appear calm and peaceful on the outside, there is a lot of churning and angst going on beneath the surface. Enneagram 9s are unpretentious and empathetic. Known as peacemakers and mediators, Nines sit at the top of the Enneagram circle and "see" all other eight perspectives. They find themselves unconsciously merging into others' agenda. As Cherri brilliantly states, the task of the Enneagram 9 is to take a front seat in their own life. The panelists share several practical strategies for Nines to be more present and accounted for. Cherri is a nonprofit fundraising coach. Her website is www.fruitfulfundraising.co. Find her on Facebook at Fruitful Fundraising Co and on Instagram @fruitfulfundraisingco.  Richard is a coach and owns Empower Potential Coaching. Find him at www.empowerpotentialcoaching.com, and on LinkedIn. He hosts the Fill Up Podcast.  Andy is an Episcopal Priest and is the CEO of Breakthrough Wichita, an organization dedicated to helping people breakthrough the cycle of poverty and mental illness. Find Andy on LinkedIn. Jeff's website is www.transmuto.org. 

Anna Peterson, Susan Johnson, and Steve Garlow combine forces to form our panel of those leading with Enneagram Type 1. They masterfully excavate the Enneagram One structure to provide a clear picture of how the Type 1 personality operates. Enneagram Type 1 is known for its strong, unrelenting inner critic. As our panelists relate, the inner critic is an ever-present reality. Anna, Susan, and Steve agree, the One structure often causes them to be their own worst critic. That said, our panelists offer real hope that the inner critic doesn't have to dominate. Through centering practices, forming trusting relationships, regulating self-dialogue and pursuing spiritual formation, they have learned to have an inner critic rather than the inner critic having them.  Anna, Susan, and Steve show us the strengths and gifts that the Enneagram One structure offers as well. Ones are conscientious, skilled, compassionate and live with integrity. Their pursuit of excellence is a superpower they offer the world. Jeff's website is www.transmuto.org.

This Enneagram panel guides us into a clearer look of the often misunderstood personality structure of Type 8. The panel, consisting of Sharon Hornbeck, Jorja White and Rachel Leduc, exemplifies all the qualities Eights are known for: energy, passion, power, take-charge attitude, laughter and, the underside, being misunderstood. Believing they can do anything and everything, Enneagram Eights often don't know when to let go, even when life's challenges overwhelm and exhaust them. It's as if they become addicted to the struggle.  These amazing women also provide insight into a specific challenge of the Eight structure--leading with Enneagram 8 AND being women. Adding to the intrigue, they discuss possessing the Eight energy as women in religious communities. Find Jorja on Instagram @jorjawhitecoaching. On LinkedIn, it's Jorja White. Her website is www.findingrokovoko.com. Find Sharon at www.transformationoftheheart.com.  Jeff's website is www.transmuto.org. 

Enneagram Fours are known for their deep introspection and creative genius. Combine these elements, and we get some of the brigthest and best expressions of the human experience and some of the darkest. In this episode Susan Kingston, Drayton Riley and George Patton create a distinguished panel of those leading with Enneagram Four. They combine wisdom, life experience and storytelling to give us a unobstructed view into the Four structure. We discover that the most creative work of Type 4 often happens internally in the stories that Enneagram Fours spin in their heads. Unchecked, an ongoing drama of melancholy unfolds to reinforce the Four's internal shame and fear of not belonging.  Susan, Drayton and George also exhibit all the amazing gifts we come to expect from those leading with Type 4: emotional intelligence, authenticity, vulnerability, compassion and empathy.

Season Seven features panels of each Enneagram Type, and kicking us off in grand style is our panel of Enneagram Type Seven, Sr. Anna-Camille, Jeannie Armbruster and Margarita Pelaez-King. Together this panel unpacks the motivations, beliefs and fears that alchemize to fuel and shape the Seven structure. Sevens are known for their energy, optimism and pursuit for the next best thing, but this drive often masks a boding sense of a dark cloud chasing them. The panelists do a masterful job of exploring the Seven persona and their growth to stay present in their reality. Sr. Anna-Camille is a Benedictine sister in Washington state. Jeannie is an Enneagram practitioner in the Philadelphia area (www.yourtruestyou.com), and Margarita resides in Virginia with her family and is an HR specialist.

My dear friend, Jorja White, concludes this season with a transparent conversation about her journey of healing and her desire to bring healing to the world. Jorja leads with Enneagram Type Eight. Eights often have the rap of being angry and insensitive. But Eights that do their work prove to be incredible change agents. They are able to combine their tenderness with their energy to bring justice to the world. Jorja masterfully describes the difference between necessary, or real, suffering and unnecessary suffering.  Find Jorja on Instagram @jorjawhitecoaching. On LinkedIn, it's Jorja White. Her website is www.findingrokovoko.com.  A gentle heads up. Jorja discusses her experience with psychedilics in this episode. I recognize that not everyone will share her opinions about this topic. But I want to provide a safe platform for my guests to freely share their story.

Author, coach and spiritual director Ben DeLong explores the ongoing journey of spiritual formation and personal development. He courageously tackles the tasks of resolving trauma, pursuing emotional health and coming home to himself. Ben leads with Enneagram Type 4. He is the author of There's a God in My Closet, Becoming Home, and The Path to Self-Acceptance (offered as a free ebook). He's a man of many talents, but his greatest passion is forging meaningful relationships with his family--a pursuit that inolves its share of disappointment and pain. Ben models the pursuit of authenticity and depth of meaning that earmarks the Enneagram Four structure. He serves as a trusted guide in this ongoing journey. Find more about Ben at www.bdelong.com.  

Shawn Bay joins me in an enlightening conversation about her process of accurately identifying her leading Enneagram Type. The Enneagram is a complex system integrating emotions, thoughts, beliefs, motives and behavior. The system is rooted in psychology, spirituality and somatics. The Enneagram also emphasizes the complexity of each individual. The Enneagram is not a one-size-fits-all approach. Each individual expresses their dominant Type in their unique way. It should not be a surprise that for some, gaining clarity of their leading Type may prove challenging.  Shawn unpacks her journey of reconsidering her initial belief of leading as a Type 6, and discovering her home in Type 4. A factor in Shawn's experience has been the impact of trauma in her formative years. Shawn provides a guiding light of hope for discerning type structure. Staying with the process opens the way for us to come home to ourselves.  

My dear friend from across the pond, Alan Hogetts, and I sit down for a vulnerable and emotionally impactful conversation about moving into our elder years, facing death and bringing healing to our world. Alan, who leads as an Enneagram 4, is a retired Anglican priest. Much of his vocational  ministry focused on being a prison chaplain. Currently Alan offers "Enneagram informed" spiritual direction. He leads a parish program called "Nine Ways to See the World."  Alan slips several gems of wisdom in the course of our conversation. He emphasizes that while we cannot change how we are wired, we can learn to relax our wiring. He believes that love is our chemotherapy we offer the world. And he identifies the impact of those who tend to the work of self-awareness. "When we are with someone who has done their work and are continuing to do their work, we want to get quiet, listen and absorb." May we follow Alan's footsteps. Cheers, my brother.

Author, speaker, coach and professional cyclist Abi Robins reveals their unexpected discovery how bicycling creates an opportunity for deep spiritual work. Abi leads as an Enneagram 8, and discloses how they're learning to embrace the vulnerability that cycling elicits. Abi is the author of The Conscious Enneagram, an incredibly useful and practical handbook for leveraging the wisdom of the Enneagram to create personal and collective transformation. They are discovering that the transformative work of the Enneagram shows up in unexpected places like bike riding. Abi reminds us that Enneagram Eights are not the only Type that avoids vulnerability. Each Type seeks to avoid vulnerability in their own way. Abi clarifies the Eight's motivation as avoiding weakness.   Find Abi at www.consciousenneagram.com. Follow them on social media by hashtagging the domain name. Subscribe to their podcast Conscious Construction. Look for announcements of Abi's upcoming book on the spiritual practice of riding a bike.

Ali Glaser catches us up on her year of milestones. Ali is an excutive coach and models how to live life with passion and intention, or, as she puts it, "BE ALL IN!." Ali is professionally trained in the Enneagram and Positive Intelligence. While she leads as an Enneagram 4, her presentation of the Four structure often takes others by suprise.  Enneagram Fours strive to be unique and create their own brand. Ali certainly accomplishes both as she exhibits her unique way of being unique. Ali reminds us that core motivations and patterns of thinking outweigh behavioral traits when it comes to understsanding the Enneagram system. Find out more about Ali's work at www.aliglaser.com. Her Facebook page is Ali Glaser Executive Perfomance.

I catch up with the amazing Rachel Leduc and review her journey with the Enneagram. Rachel is a marketing manager, speaker, author and coach. She leads with Type 8. Rachel is a great example of the gifts and natural superpowers of the Eight structure. Eights are a force in the world. They get stuff done. While some may find the Eight's passion and energy intimidating, Eights are motivated by a tender heart and genuine passion to create needed change. As Rachel says, the rest of us don't need to be afraid of their energy.  

Dr. Sam E. Greenberg unpacks her research on the intersection of sexual desire/expression and the Enneagram. She masterfully describes how Enneagram Types differ in their styles of desire, meaning and behavior in regards to sexuality and sexual expression. Dr. Sam gives particular focus on the impact that Enneagram instincts and subtypes have on sexual approaches and interaction. Dr. Sam identifies as an Enneagram 5 and affectionately refers to herself as a sex-nerd. She is a sexuality researcher and coach, as well as a Certified Enneagram professional. Her voice is an important contribution in helping couples navigate this often dicey area of their relationship as well as aiding personal growth and discovery. Find more about Dr. Sam and her research at enneagramsexpert.com and her Instagram account, @ennea_gasm. Watch for her future publications on this topic. While this episode covers mature topics, there are no explicit references. The episode is suitable for all.  

Cory Scheer, PhD, kicks off Season Six of Nine Lives focusing on organizational trust. Cory's extensive research on trust in organizations convincingly demonstrates that trust is THE foundational trait in determining an organization's success, including the bottom line of financial viability. His approach provides organizations a proven method to both accurately assess their existing level of trust and applicable steps for increasing trust. Cory leads with Enneagram Type 1, a perfect fit for his work and expertise. Enneagram Ones possess a keen radar for detecting imperfections as well as the wisdom to bring needed reform.  Find out more about Cory, his approach and his organization, TrustCentric Consulting, at www.trustcentricconsulting.com. Be sure to pick up a copy of his new book, Closing the Trust Gap. 

Wrapping up Season 5 of Nine Lives is a discussion of Enneagram Nine. Rachel Rudeen, Cherri Rodriguez and yours truly join forces to form this panel. Enneagram Nines are known as the peacemakers and mediators. While these roles are powerful gifts that Nines contribute to the world, in their less developed stages, Nines tend to seek peace by avoiding conflict at all costs. They deny their anger, go along to get along and fall asleep to their own priorities. Another characteristic of Enneagram Nines is their pursuit of creating and maintaining harmony. Our panelists speak to the challenge of creating genuine harmony. True harmony only exists when all voices are represented, including the Nine's. This pushes Enneagram Nines out of their propensity to merge and not show up when needed. Their gift of harmony then becomes the secret sauce for creating community. Rachel is a mom, photographer and ceramic pottery artist. Find her at rachelrudeen.com. Cherri is a fundraising coach and operates her business, Fruitful Fundraising (fruitfulfundraising.co). My work as a Certified Enneagram Teacher can be found at transmuto.org.  

Enneagram Eights are known for their outward moving energy. They have high levels of passion and determination to influence their environment, get things done and stand for justice. They also are determined to stand against what they deem unfair and unnecessary. Eights have a direct style of communicating. They call things as they see them, cut to the chase and approach situations with a move-or-get-out-of-the-way mentality. They are known as the leader, boss, challenger and decider in the Enneagram system. Sharon Hornbeck, Steph King and Roo Winchester discuss their experiences leading with the Eight personality structure. They hold a shared experience of their Eight energy often being misunderstood. The panelists also discuss their soft and tender side that is often overlooked. Sharon is a Certified Enneagram Teacher and spiritual director. She and her husband lead Transformation of the Heart. Steph is a nurse and just completed her Master's in public health. Roo is the founder of Roo's World which provides after school care and summer camps for children in grades K-5.

Kirsty Spence, Jeannie Armbruster and Michael Coupland combine forces on this panel to help us understand the personality type structure known as Enneagram Seven. While Enneagram Sevens often have the reputation as fun-seekers, the panel clarifies the real drive for the Seven: seeking to create and experience meaning and joy. The panel also demonstrates the deep wisdom and insight that Sevens bring to our world. While other types envy the Seven's ambition, sense of adventure and enthusiasm, our panelists provide a transparent look into the struggles inherent in Type Seven. Sevens often wrestle with getting in touch with their feelings and slowing down enough to really savor the richness of life. Kirsty is Associate Dean of Teaching and Undergraduate Studies at Brock University. She's also a certified coach, certified Enneagram Teacher and certified Enneagram Practitioner. Jeannie operates her coaching business, Your Truest You, and is also a Certified Enneagram Teacher and certified coach. Michael is an IT consultant and does grief work through his local hospice chapter.

This interview features panelists who identify as Counterphobic Sixes. While each Enneagram type has a "counter-type," the Counterphobic Six is perhaps the most fascinating example of this aspect of the Enneagram. Type Six teach us the universal response to fear: fight, flight and freeze.  The key element of Type Six involves the propensity to imagine and plan for the worst-case scenarios. Most Sixes respond by holding back, getting caught in an endless stream of strategizing ways to be safe and certain. Their go-to mechanism is flight or freeze. Counter-phobic Sixes take the opposite approach. They go on the offensive, taking an aggressive stance to what threatens them. Their motto: the best defense is a strong offense. Carol Rydell, Lidia Young and Lou Flessner provide expert insight to the Counterphobic Six structure. Carol, Lidia and Lou identify their game-plan as "jumping off cliffs." The panelists recognize the gift inherent in the Counter-phobic structure: it allows them to take risks and be fully human. Carol is a transformational strategist and shamanic priestess. Lidia is a therapist and executive coach. Lou is a retired Lutheran minister and quilter.

Gathered for this panel of Enneagram Fives are Roger Hornbeck, Dr. Paul Fitzgerald and David Armbruster. Enneagram Five is typically pegged as the investigator, observer or analyzer. However, this panel represents another identifying characteristic: the sage. Enneagram Fives perceive their world as demanding, depleting and intrusive. They fear engagement in their world will deplete them of their resources--emotionally and mentally. Fives adopt a strategy of withdrawing and observing in an effort to obtain the information they need to meet the demands that life brings. Furthermore, Fives conserve their emotional and mental resources, which can lead to watching life more than participating.  Their efforts have a main goal: create a way to feel safe in their world. Fives do their homework and are typically experts in their field. They are brilliant, love to learn, and find adventure in discovering, exploring and inventing. As this panel demonstrates, Fives who do their work and mature through life earn the title of sage. Roger and his wife, Sharon, lead Transformation of the Heart, providing spiritual formation and Enneagram training. Dr. Paul is the founder of HeartConnexion Seminars, featuring their cornerstone BreakThrough Seminar. David is a biomedical engineer. Together this panel brings a whole lot of degrees to the table. 

What happens when a group of Enneagram 4s get together? A lot of great stories, keen insights, deep feels, and an incredibly meaningful time for all. Brandon Graves, Katie Gustafson-Hill and Kareen King form our Four Panel. They pool their expertise to provide us with a deeply personal and insightful look into the Four structure. As they unpack their stories a common theme emerges--leading with Type Four is often complicated.  Brandon is a musician, author and educator. Follow him on Instagram @beatcaster and his website www.brandongravesmusic.com. Katie is a psychotherapist, trained Enneagram expert and a musician. Find her at www.katiegustafson.co. Kareen is drama therapist, writer, creative engagement specialist, photographer, musician and grandma. Find her at www.thegoldenexperience.com.  

Nana Agyemang and Rhonda Magee form this panel of Enneagram Threes. Nana and Rhonda exhibit one of the key traits of the Three structure--energy. Threes' energy propels them to be industrious, efficient and goal-oriented. While sometimes stereotyped as Wall Street powerbrokers, Threes can also channel their drive toward achievement and productivity in serving others, as evidenced in Nana and Rhonda's dedication to public service and the nonprofit sector. This panel highlights a main task of Type Three--harnessing their energy to create space for developing a sense of presence and discovering the value of being over doing. Rhonda leads Garden Hill Consulting (www.gardenhillconsulting.com). Learn more about Nana's work on LinkedIn @Nana A. 

Janice Ariza, Darla Bailey and Chris Bay join forces on this panel discussion of Enneagram Twos. While Twos are traditionally considered helpers and givers, the panel introduces a deeper dimension of the Two-structure--the gift of creating collaboration. Panelists also explore the role of anger, the need to set healthy boundaries and their vulnerability to exhaustion. True to leading with Type Two, Janice, Darla and Chris show up in a big way in this panel discussion, helping the rest of us to connect and get a feel of what it's like to live from the Two personality structure. 

Rustie Dimitriadis, Ryan Vaughn and Jamie Roach form this panel of Enneagram Ones. They masterfully unpack what it's like to live from the Enneagram 1 structure. They share struggles, provide insights and identify the liberating truth that "Life doesn't have to be perfect to be wonderful." This is the first of a nine-episode series of panel discussions on each Enneagram Type. True to form, this panel of Ones kick off Season Five with excellence.

Announcing the launch of Season Five of Nine Lives with Jeff King.  This season utilizes the teaching method of panels. Each episode features a panel interview of of 2-3 individuals who identify as leading with that episode's feature type. Panelists range from relative newcomers to the Enneagram to seasoned veterans and experts. Join us in these nine episodes of Season Five and take a deep dive into each Enneagram type.

My dear friend Ryan Vaughn closes out Season 4 with a masterful description of the spiritual journey and formation. Ryan traces the roots of his personality structure (Enneagram 1) and how it impacts the universal struggle to hold basic trust. Applying the insights of the Enneagram and other wisdom traditions, Ryan provides us a real life model on how to navigate one's way to learn how to recognize and give up control. His story is the perfect summation of this season's theme of faith shifts and development. Ryan is the Director of Special Education for Greenbush, an education service center. Find out more at www.greenbush.org. Find out more about Transmuto at www.transmuto.org. 

Mike King joins me in a robust discussion of spirituality and faith formation. Mike is my first cousin, and our spiritual journeys parallel each other in many ways. In this episode, Mike traces his development of understanding and applying his faith. He sums up his approach to experiencing faith in the phrase, "Presence-centered spirituality." Mike is President and CEO of Youthfront Ministries, which offers a range of innovative programs for youth, families and churches. Mike leads as an Enneagram 3, which offers him many strengths as a leader. Find out more about Mike and Youthfront, based in Kansas City, at www.youthfront.com. 

Paul Young recounts his autobiography that serves as the backdrop of his best-selling novel, The Shack. Paul, who thinks he most likely leads with Enneagram 9, shares his remarkable story of growing up as a missionary kid, suffering severe childhood trauma, inheriting toxic concepts of God and his painful healing journey. Through it all, Paul settles on a simple approach to wholeness, authenticity and hope: staying present in the grace of the moment. He emphasizes the core message of incarnation: to be fully human is where we meet God. In addition to The Shack, Paul has authored numerous other books, including Lies We Believe About God. Find more about Paul at www.wmpaulyoung.com and www.opentableconference.com.