The God Journey - 2006

Second up in a couple of re-runs from this past year—Meet Jake Colsen with Dave Coleman joining us in the studio. We hope you’re all having a blessed holiday break and look forward to being back with a new podcast next week!

In this their last podcast of 2006, Brad and Wayne talk about overcoming the need to convince others of the truth as we see it. Since the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, and of righteousness and and of judgment, it is not our job to do so and when we try we actually push people further from the truth. Instead, we get to live authentically, love graciously and speak honestly while watching as the Spirit does that which will best bring people into the light. Program note: The God Journey will go on a two-week hiatus during the holiday season and will resume with a new podcast on January 5.

Wayne’s participation in a recent Brian McLaren conference starts a discussion with Brad regarding McLaren’s teachings, the Emergent conversation in general and a new book on the scene entitled, Chasing Francis. Join them as they contemplate whether or not this life in Christ is about following principles, albeit it very good ones, or following a person—the One who is God’s life!

Wayne and Brad follow-up their recent podcast on “Greed, Grace and Giving” by responding to comments they received from listeners. That, coupled with a recent letter asking how real is this ‘intimate relationship with Jesus’ supposed to be, leads to a discussion about the reality of God’s presence in their daily lives and some of the things people can be thinking and praying about who are having a tough time seeing that reality in their own lives.

Appropriate for the upcoming holiday season, Brad and Wayne share two wonderful productions from friends of theirs as they find themselves contemplating greed, grace and giving. First up is the hilarious song, “Stuff” by Sean Dietrich, a good friend who regularly follows this podcast and contributes to our forum. That leads them to the best video on the "giving of grace" ever! You’ll have to watch it on YouTube to get the full impact. The synergy of these two clips offer some valuable insights about our desires and how Father wants to resolve them in his generosity.

When our religious constructs fail, what do when the illusion comes tumbling down? As Wayne and Brad see regularly, that is a scary time for many people. So, do we grab the duct tape and patch the illusion back together, or do we risk embracing the truth of what we’ve seen and go on a journey that will allow God to show us who he really is and the church as she really is in the world. When we find the reality behind the veil, we’ll find being disillusioned isn’t something we need to fear, but embrace with gratefulness.

Is God a distant observer of human history, or intimately involved in the affairs of people? Is he angry at our failures or compassionate for our struggle? These are the questions a new study seeks to answer. American Piety in the 21st Century is a new study conducted by Baylor University to measure how the American people perceive God and his activity or inactivity in our world. The results are fascinating and as Brad and Wayne sort through the data they explore our perceptions of God and how we can grow in knowing him as he really is rather than sorting through oversimplistic and seemingly contradictory characterizations of him.

Allegations of drug use and sexual trysts against one of America’s well-known mega-church pastors and political advocate for religious conservatism combines with some experiences Wayne had on his recent trip to New England to provoke a discussion with Brad on what happens when we can no longer play the game religion asks of us. Some are forced to it through exposure, others embrace it as revelation. This podcast also includes an interview with Wayne’s long-time friend, Jack Gerry (pictured left) of Crossroads in Maine and what he and his wife have discovered on this journey.

What do believers do when they find themselves facing depression? This topic began with questions from some of our listeners both in personal conversations and on the forum. How can we help brothers and sisters who battle deep-seated depression and can’t seem to find their way out of it? Unfortunately, with its focus on works, pretense and self-blame, religion only exacerbates the problem and forces the person into greater isolation. Brad and Wayne talk from their experiences with those in depression and how we can walk alongside them as God brings the resources they need to find healing and freedom.

Wayne’s return from Texas spawns a discussion about dealing with others’ journey out of a gracious heart. Quoting from some recent engagements listeners have had with pastors from the congregations they have left or are considering leaving, Brad and Wayne talk about how we can be generous with others and God’s work in them, regardless of how we perceive or engage the body of Christ. It is easy to bless those who agree with us, but more difficult to be gracious with those who don’t see what we see, even as we’re honest about the issues and concerns God stirs in us.

So many people currently thinking outside the box of organized religion used used to be very active in traditional leadership roles in the congregational format. What happens to those gifts such as teaching, music, leading or counseling when we are no longer engaged with the Sunday morning gathering or the institutions where we’ve most commonly seen them? Brad and Wayne talk about genuine giftedness in the family and how we might look for expressions in other creative, and often more effective, venues.

A letter from a listener who found community in a place she least expected prompts Brad and Wayne to a discussion about how we think about other brothers and sisters. We often classify them in ways that lead to stereotypes and false assumptions that often make us feel superior to them instead of being able to walk alongside them. As we learn to think outside the box we will find ourselves relating to people around us as individuals, loving them for who they are and not by how we can classify them with our previous experiences.

The important part of being on a journey, is to keep moving. But isn’t it so easy to pitch our tents in the pits of frustration, or even the mountain tops of glory, and miss out on Jesus inviting us to the next stage of our journey? Brad and Wayne begin with some follow-up questions from an earlier podcast with the Family Room folks in Sacramento, and then find themselves talking about the glorious unfolding of God’s work in us and sorting out what our next steps might look like as he continues to shape us for his glory.

Everything you wanted to know about Brad and Wayne is contained in this little podcast. O.K., probably not everything, but they take the time to answer the questions sent in by many of their faithful listeners. They didn’t see their own questions in advance, so what you get is the honest answer off the top of their heads, but this podcast offers some some interesting glimpses into their histories, motivations and perspectives on their own God journeys.

Discouragement almost always arises whenever we compare our own journey to someone else’s. The drive for certain outcomes and the false notion that God wants to wave a magic wand over us and fix our difficulties in an instant sidetracks from the simple trust and peace of following him every day. Brad and Wayne find themselves talking about the joy of celebrating the uniqueness of God’s work in each of us. (During this podcast Wayne and Brad refer to a new behind the scenes video. You can view it here.

Following up their discussion about the fear and anger that are so easily exploited in the Christian community, Brad and Wayne find themselves probing spiritual passion. How does our passion for Jesus find expression in ways that lead us more deeply to embrace what is on his heart, rather than get sidetracked into more fleshy attempts that human ingenuity and effort offer us, often in his name? (During this podcast they refer to a trailer for a documentary about Jesus Camp. You can view that trailer here.)

The boys from Family Room Media are back to talk about their ongoing journey discovering life outside the box of organized religion. We first met David Fredrickson a year and a half ago as he shared how their traditional congregation in Sacramento, California decentralized itself out of existence as God led them to deeper expressions of his life and a freer relational life- among them. (See Archives, 4/29/05). He has just published a book, When the Church Leaves the Building , that chronicles their journey and shares the lessons they learned. Family Room Media is also releasing the first a four-part documentary called Church Outside the Walls . It asks some provocative questions of those who are no longer involved in traditional congregations and the discoveries they’ve made following God in this way. Wayne and Brad interview David, and the director of this new DVD, Bob Humphrey as we get a preview of these new resources and a look at their ongoing journey.

With religious-based violence devouring our planet, why would such a broad consortium of evangelical leaders use the langue of war to rally believers to have impact in the world? A four-page advertisement in the current issue of Christianity Today heralds a ‘Wake Up Call” and a “Call to Arms” as a “Battle Cry” for Christians in America. You can see the ad here. Brad and Wayne discuss what this says about the evangelical view of the gospel, our place in the world, and why is this approach so effective in stirring a certain kind of believer to action.

They’re back! Some of you have asked to have our wives back and discuss a bit more about women and identity issues through motherhood and beyond. On this podcast we bring back Brad’s wife, Kelly, (pictured at left with Taylor) to talk about the challenges and insights she has gained as the mother of three growing children as to how that has affected her purpose and identity in the world. Next week, we’ll have Sara share her perspectives on these issues.

There’s nothing that will ruin a relationship faster than disappointed expectations in someone else. This problem is magnified infinitely when that someone else is God. So many believers we meet on this journey have gotten sidetracked by their disappointed expectations in God’s work in their lives. Brad and Wayne take a look at how our expectations can ruin the journey by putting more confidence in our wisdom than on Father’s affection for us.

Brad and Wayne follow up their previous podcast “When Dreams Die”, with some listener reaction. Trying to serve God through the grid of our religious effort is a road littered with disillusions and broken dreams. After investing so much in that which bore so little fruit, what do we do with the resulting pain and feeling that we’ve wasted so many years?

Listener responses to an earlier podcast on The Effeminacy of Religion, lead Brad and Wayne to discuss a bit more the sexual brokenness and temptation that is so prevalent in our age. How do we deal with the sexual images in our culture in the freedom and life of Jesus? WARNING: This discussion about sexual brokenness and failure is blunt and honest. It may not be appropriate for every one, so parents might want to check it out before letting their children listen in. In this podcast, Wayne refers to an audio presentation by Dallas Willard that can be found through a link at Wayne’s Lifestream Blog.

A recent column in Time called You Gotta Have Friends reported on a recent study that said our society is becoming increasingly lonely. In the last 20 years Americans report a one-third drop in the number of friendships with whom they can share ‘important matters.’ Brad and Wayne talk about the unique challenges and opportunities of cultivating close friendships when you no longer a part of a local congregation—or even if you are!

Many on our Forum have been sharing the books that have been helpful to them on their spiritual journeys. So, for your summer reading pleasure, Brad and Wayne weigh in on the books that have encouraged them and helped shape their spiritual passions. While certainly lot all-inclusive, it does cut a wide swath through books both Christian and secular.

We’ve had a lot of comment on our forum about our original ‘God and Mammon’ podcast and questions about tithing. Brad and Wayne just couldn’t resist, so they jumped in again to this tangled web of how much money influences our religious systems and what they think the Bible teaches about tithing for the believer today.

WARNING: This is an explicit discussion of sexual issues in religion, from the passivity it requires of men and women and how it neglects sexual brokenness and temptation. This results in so many people living lost in their struggles instead of being transformed by his life. Sometimes hilarious and sometimes intense, Wayne and Brad take the lid off of the sexual dysfunction of religion and provide hope that God can redeem us out of our brokenness and failures and bring us into the fullness of his life.

Brad and Wayne had so much feedback from their previous podcast, that they thought it best to continue their discussion about our relationship with Jesus as our older brother in Father’s house. Sharing from their own experiences, they hope to help listeners either begin or deepen their own friendship with Jesus in a way that allows him to be a practical part of their lives each day.

You’re not going to believe this one! A comment about the DaVinci Code movie takes Brad and Wayne into a discussion about the humanity of Jesus and how an over-exaggeration of his deity, at the expense of his humanity, robs us of a meaningful relationship Jesus wants us to have with him as our older brother on this journey. God wired us to need a human mediator between him and us, and when Jesus loses that place in our lives, we’ll put other human substitutes in that place, and the result is always disastrous.

No, this is not a test to see if you qualify. A recent essay in Time spured a conversation about the term ‘Christian’ what it has come to mean in our world. Are you comfortable being called a Christian, or does that identify you with things that don’t speak of your faith or your spiritual journey? Brad and Wayne talk about the use of this term in politics and in our world that has changed its meaning greatly since the early believers were first called ‘Christians’ in Antioch.

This question came up in the Forum and it is one that Brad and Wayne have struggled with throughout their own journeys. Clearly, the life of God is not just a matter of words and principles; it is a kingdom of power where people are healed, broken hearts mended, and captive people delivered. Where is that power today? How are we seeing the body of Christ experience that kind of power? And if we’re not seeing it in our own lives, what might we do about that?

Certainly God wants to bring us into the fullness of his life, but the process of getting there is not without difficulty and pain. Jumping off listener comments from last week’s podcast, Brad and Wayne talk further about how God uses the brutal realities of our conflicted age to invite us ever-closer to him and out of that relationship, gets to transform us so that we can reflect his glory to others around us. They talk about the importance of brutal honesty with God and how he views our struggles so much differently than we do.

One of the most gut-wrenching seasons in this journey is when God allows our dreams to die so that he can free us from the tyranny of our own agendas to live in his glory. Of course, we often don’t have a clue that this is what he’s doing, we our overwhelming feelings of disappointment, hopelessness and abandonment in our disappointed dreams. An email Wayne received this week is a raw and accurate expression of someone in the midst of such a season. Wayne and Brad dissect the email as well as their own struggle when their dreams were swallowed up by God’s awesome love. No doubt, this is tough love, but the freedom on the backside of it is well worth the journey.

Wayne and Brad begin by responding comments on the forum from their last podcast on spiritual warfare, then begin a discussion about singles and some of the challenges they face on the journey in answer to a recent email. What came out of it is the joy of living in agenda-free relationships wherever we find ourselves in life. They also comment on marriages where where spouses aren’t on the same page and how God connects his people relationally on this journey whether it is in the context of family or beyond it.

Just how much does God want his people involved in spiritual warfare? For the last decade or more prayer walks, intercession in a city’s high places, and discerning and rebuking principalities over a region have become quite a fad in the body of Christ, especially among Charismatic groups. Are these efforts spiritually significant or another distraction of religion? Wayne and Brad jump into this too-little discussed topic and try to confuse it even more. Well, they hope not, but they do sort out some of the myths and the realities of what it means to live redemptively in the storm-drenched culture in which we live.

Add this story to the stories of Ladysmith, South Africa, Fairlee, New Zealand and Sacramento, CA, where a group of people find that the institution they were creating was not what God wanted and how he lead them to do something about it. Meet Collin Langran and David Rice of Dublin who helped host Wayne on his recent visit to Ireland. Wayne had the chance to record their story firsthand about a group of believers around Dublin who followed God out of institutional thinking and into relational life. Twenty-five years later they continue in their passion for Jesus and powerful relationships with each other.

Many of you have asked to hear more about this journey from a woman’s perspective. Recently Wayne spent some time in Washington, CD with Mike and Lynette Woods of Wellington, New Zealand. Mike is currently attached to the Education Ministry at the New Zealand Embassy while Lynette encourages other fellow-travelers with lessons she’s learned along the journey at unveiling.org and she and Mike host austin-sparks.net where the writings of T. Austin-Sparks are available free of charge. Wayne had a chance to sit down and talk with Lynette about their interesting journey outside of organized religion, which in many ways is very unique. She also shares her experiences as a missionary daughter, listening to Father’s voice and what God has taught Mike and her about submission.

We often hear from those who think the church can only have impact on society through its massive institutions. How can believer simply networked together have any effect on what’s going on in the world today. Well we have an incredible story for you. In a recent trip to Washington, DC, Wayne met a man who, alongside many others, is having some incredible impact on the conflicts in Africa. It all began with a prayer and simple moments of obedience and over 30 years some incredible things have happened that is touching a culture with the simple life of Christ and his love is reshaping tribal conflicts. Wayne introduces us to Bob Hunter and one example of how simple believers can have a profound effect behind the scenes of current events in our world. We apologize for the bad audio. A taping error leaves it sounding like it was recorded in an airplane hanger. But we think the content is worth getting through the difficulty in listening. We hope you do too.

Paul Young of Gresham, Oregon joins Brad and Wayne for a discussion on the drive for significance that twists and distorts our journey. By appealing to our deep sense of shame and manipulating our desire to do something great for God, this unquenchable thirst takes our best intentions and uses them against us by drawing us deeper into religion and performance rather than the simple joy of being God’s child. As we find our full acceptance in him we will then be free to live open-handedly in the world and be free to touch others without manipulating them.

For the last four years Wayne has been working with Dave Coleman writing an Internet book entitled So You Don’t Want to Go to Church Anymore under the penname Jake Colsen. The book has now been released in print and Brad uses that opportunity to interview Wayne and Dave about how they wrote the book and what they hope it will accomplish. The three of them get into a wide-ranging discussion about shame, guilt, religious obligation and control and how Jesus’ work sets us free to live in him. Their book is a challenge to rethink Christianity, not as the religion it has become, but as the relationship with his Father that he always meant it to be.

For most people who have only seen leadership in the body of Christ implemented in institutional environments, it is difficult to see them any other way. A recent article about house churches in Time magazine and some discussion in our Forums drew Brad and Wayne back to this critical area. What do elders and other leaders look like in the relational life of those living outside of those institutional frameworks and how can God give our lives away to help others on this journey.

A recent meeting of some fellow-believers active in the filmmaking industry gave Brad and Wayne an opportunity to host a free-ranging discussion on movies, in general and movies directed at Christians in particular. They discuss what the future might hold for believers in this media and how it can demonstrate the reality of Jesus where our culture convenes with Bobby Downes of ChristianCinema.com in Visalia, CA and Loren Rosser of Family Room Media in Sacramento, California.

Muslim riots over a cartoon in a Danish newspaper and the controversy over Bono’s spirituality and his campaign to help with hunger and AIDs in Africa provide the launch point for Wayne and Brad to discuss how believers can engage the world with the life of Jesus. Too often we are drawn into world conflicts matching power with power instead of demonstrating the character of Jesus by showing respect and kindness, even to those we think are our enemies. That’s what Jesus asked of us.

Interaction with many of our listeners on the Forum to the ‘It’s About Jesus’ podcast collided with experiences from Wayne’s recent trip to the St. Louis area to create the perfect storm for further dialog about what it means to connect with Jesus in a way that fulfills God’s desire for our growing relationship with him. On the one hand it is so simple as he takes the lead in the relationship, and on the other hand it invites us to lose our life in him instead of saving it on our own.

People outside the walls of traditional congregational life often say that they miss the worship most. What they mean, of course, is the corporate expression of singing and praise. But is that worship? Brad and Wayne explore what worship really means and how that can become a daily part of our lives. They also talk about the value of those corporate song and praise gatherings and how we might continue to find expression for those desires and gifts even outside the box. Many people have asked us to take this a bit further since it originally came up with Sara and Kelly in our Meet the Wives podcasts.

This journey is not about house church, relational church, institutional church or anything else! It’s about Jesus–first, foremost and always! The early Christians did not promote a gospel, a ritual, or a set of principles, but the person of Jesus Christ, knowable by all who want to follow him. Wayne’s recent trip to Pennsylvania provides the backdrop as he and Brad discuss the challenge and joys of simply being devoted to Jesus and discovering how to share that life with our children and other believers around us. This podcast also includes a reading from the Harper Children’s Audio of The Chronicles of Narnia.

As much as we might hope that following Jesus ensures a pain-free life, reality constantly argues against it. As does Jesus himself, when he warned us that we would face troubles as long as we are in this world. Some of the most difficult questions we face concern how we reconcile God’s love for us with the painful experiences we go through. When trouble comes we often end up blaming him for not loving us, or ourselves for not doing enough to earn that love. Responding that way, however, pushes us away from the God who wants to be present with us even in our darkest days. Every writer of the New Testament assured us that as believers we would go through hardships, but he would be present in them all and transform us through them.

Some wonderful postings on The God Journey Forums gives Brad and Wayne an opportunity to re-visit some of the topics covered in recent podcasts, including more on recognizing God’s voice and the conflict between those who are in and out of traditional congregations. Through the contributions of their listeners and their own discussion a recurring theme emerges: to be able to freely walk the God journey we must take care to ensure that we aren’t so cluttered by other distractions that we miss the simplicity of flowing with his life in us.

Christianity Today’s current review of George Barna’s book, Revolution, highlights the misunderstanding and increasing polarization between those who see the church only as a traditional congregation and those looking for more relational expressions of body life. Wayne and Brad wade into the conflict between those who are in and those who are out to invite us all to lower the temper of the debate and open the doors of communication and compassion between fellow-believers however he calls us to walk out our life in him. It is easy to understand why those who embrace more traditional forms would feel threatened by those leaving it, and why those leaving might feel the need to condemn what failed them so. But is this really serving Father’s purpose in the world?

The idea that God speaks to normal people in the course of their daily lives is still a controversial concept among Christians. Wayne and Brad often refer to God’s leading as a significant factor in their relationship with God and their journey. In this podcast they discuss how a daily, ongoing conversation with God is a normal part of the relationship he desires with his people. They share what that looks like in their own lives, how it integrates with their use of the Scriptures and how we can encourage others in this incredible process of learning to recognize his voice and have the courage to follow through with the things he makes clear to us.