The Motivate Collective Podcast by Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Ironbrij founder Louis Swart on why doing everything yourself devalues your business, his evolving AI-powered delegation stack, hypnotherapy, and why trust and control — not time — are the real barriers to letting go.   Louis Swart built and sold a $5 million business by learning to delegate — and now helps other founders do the same through his company, Ironbrij, first through virtual assistants and now through AI. In this conversation, Louis and Melanie explore why doing everything yourself makes a business worth nothing, the concept of "productive procrastination," and how Louis's own delegation systems have evolved from a human EA to a full AI stack built on Claude Code, handling everything from meeting prep to client research. They also dig into Louis's background as an NLP master practitioner and certified hypnotherapist — including a live hypnosis demonstration — his argument that AI can genuinely evoke human emotion, and the simple Post-it-note exercise he uses with clients to decide exactly what should be delegated. 🎧 Full show notes and transcript: [EPISODE URL — placeholder, confirm before publishing] 💛 Support the show: PayPal.me/differentlivingmsw 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community: motivatecollective.com/join 😴 Try HumanCharger with code THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE Tags: delegation, AI, virtual assistants, business coaching, entrepreneurship, burnout, NLP, hypnotherapy, productivity, conscious leadership, Claude AI, wellness podcast Category: Education > Self-Improvement Author: The Motivate Collective Explicit Rating: No

The Motivate Collective — Episode 100: Live Anniversary Panel   Table of Contents Episode Overview Meet the Panel Episode Breakdown (Timestamped) Key Insights & Themes Audience Q&A Guest & Community Links Outstanding Publishing Checklist 1. Episode Overview To mark one year and 100 episodes of The Motivate Collective, Melanie hosted a live, in-person panel recording — a first for the show, which has otherwise been recorded remotely. Four returning guests joined her to reflect on what a year of podcasting has taught them, followed by a live audience Q&A. The conversation moves through public speaking confidence, using AI to reclaim time for human connection, media literacy in the AI age, and Australia's cultural relationship with ambition and money. 2. Meet the Panel Baraka Chimrillo — Novelist, former radio personality, and educator. Writes short stories, novels, and poetry, and runs literary and poetry evenings. [Location of teaching courses stated in the recording but unclear on transcript — flagged for confirmation before publishing.] Previously a guest on the podcast; described exploring topics including art, death, consciousness, and personal development in that earlier conversation. Dr Eugen ("Dr Jen") — Practised as a GP for nearly 30 years before transitioning to work as a life coach. Works primarily with women in caregiving roles who feel unsupported by the traditional healthcare system, drawing on her own story and experience of burnout. Sarah — Financial expert; this marks her third time recording with Melanie. Speaks to using podcasting as a low-risk way to build public speaking confidence, and to how she works with clients on their underlying relationship with money. Robbie (Robbie Mattei) — Runs two fitness training studios with multiple employees. Recorded a separate one-on-one episode with Melanie (referenced as forthcoming). Advocates for an "AI-first" hiring and operations philosophy: automating administrative back-end work so business owners can spend more time on direct human connection with clients. 3. Episode Breakdown (Timestamped) [All timestamps below are pulled from the raw recording and are placeholders pending confirmation against the final edited cut.] 00:01 — Live welcome, framing of the 100th episode and one-year anniversary; Melanie reflects on starting the show with a five-year-old MacBook and a cheap microphone. 01:15 — Round-robin intros begin. Baraka shares her background as a novelist, poet, and educator. 02:41 — Baraka on the value of showing up authentically: "show who you are, what you know, and how you can contribute to the community." 03:22 — Dr Jen introduces herself, her medical background, and her pivot to life coaching. 05:52 — Sarah reflects on podcasting as practice for building public speaking confidence and reducing fear of the camera. 07:46 — Robbie discusses his fitness business, contrarian messaging, and his AI-first approach to automating operations. 10:13 — Robbie expands on how automation has freed up his time for more client-facing, human connection. 11:58 — Live audience Q&A opens. 12:04 — Elliot (audience, freelance copywriter) asks how media and audience communication have changed. 13:05 — Panel discusses the shift from traditional media gatekeepers to today's podcasting and social landscape, and the need for discernment around misinformation. 15:20 — Melanie raises the question of where the line sits on sensitive or difficult topics shared on the show. 16:28 — Panel discusses publishing responsibility now that "everyone can publish," and the importance of critical thinking and self-trust when navigating information. 19:45 — Robbie speaks to the vulnerability of being on a podcast and why people generally resist change. 21:29 — Second audience question opens (Ken). 21:47 — Ken (audience, cost-saving/local sourcing business) asks Sarah about people's relationship with money. 22:25 — Sarah on identifying a person's underlying beliefs and mindset about money before offering advice. 23:55 — Panel discusses "tall poppy syndrome" in Australian culture and the tendency to criticise rather than celebrate success. 25:07 — Closing reflections and thanks to the panel and live audience. 25:29 — Final CTA: how to connect with guests, how to be featured on the show, and an invitation to start your own podcast. 4. Key Insights & Themes Podcasting as a confidence-building practice ground. Multiple guests independently framed being on a podcast as low-risk "reps" for public speaking — a way to build comfort in front of a camera before higher-stakes speaking opportunities. AI as a tool for reclaiming human connection, not replacing it. Robbie's operating philosophy — automate what can be automated, train people to work alongside AI rather than be replaced by it — was a recurring thread, tying directly into more time for face-to-face client relationships. Media literacy in an unfiltered publishing landscape. With traditional gatekeepers gone, the panel discussed the responsibility that comes with anyone being able to publish anything, and the importance of discernment and critical thinking for both creators and audiences. Vulnerability and authenticity resonate — and cost something. Several guests noted that sharing openly and without filter attracts the right audience while inevitably alienating others, and that resistance to change is a common, understandable human response. Australia's relationship with ambition and money. The panel touched on "tall poppy syndrome" — the cultural tendency to criticise rather than celebrate visible success — and how that shapes conversations around wealth, entrepreneurship, and financial confidence. 5. Audience Q&A Elliot (freelance copywriter) asked how communication and audience-reaching methods have shifted across radio, television, the internet, and social media. Ken (runs a business helping companies cut costs through local sourcing) asked Sarah, as a financial expert, how she navigates people's discomfort or judgement around discussing money. [Full names/business details for Elliot and Ken as stated in the room; social handles not captured in the recording and should be treated as placeholders if being credited publicly.] 6. Guest & Community Links Baraka Chimrillo — [social/website links placeholder] Dr Eugen / Dr Jen — [social/website links placeholder] Sarah — [social/website links placeholder] Robbie Mattei — [social/website links placeholder] The Motivate Collective — motivatecollective.com 7. Outstanding Publishing Checklist [ ] Confirm episode number/slug and final published URL [ ] Confirm all timestamps against the final edited cut (raw recording timestamps used above) [ ] Confirm spelling of Baraka Chimrillo's teaching location (unclear on transcript — heard as "Mossman and Harry Hartford") [ ] Confirm Dr Eugen's full name/spelling and whether "Dr Jen" is the preferred on-air name [ ] Confirm Sarah's and Robbie's surnames/full names for public-facing copy (Robbie referenced as Robbie Mattei per prior context — confirm) [ ] Source guest social handles and website links (all currently placeholders) [ ] Confirm Elliot's and Ken's business names/handles if they are to be credited [ ] Confirm whether Robbie's separate one-on-one episode is published/linked yet

Short Description (Libsyn "summary," ~2–3 sentences): Sydney Zumba instructor and community connector Luiza Mustafina joins The Motivate Collective to share how one weekly class grew into festivals, retreats, and a fundraising movement — and why scheduled rest and self-awareness are what make it sustainable. Content note: this episode includes a brief discussion of grief and loss. Long Description: ⚠️ This episode includes a brief, candid discussion of grief and loss — Luiza shares that her aunt passed away from breast cancer, and Melanie shares the loss of her grandmother. Listener discretion noted. Luiza Mustafina started with one weekly Zumba class in Sydney. Today, she runs regular classes across Mosman and Neutral Bay, free-form social dance parties, the twice-yearly Sydney Zumba Festival, a dance cruise, and a sold-out Bali Zumba Retreat — all while working full-time as an Operations Manager in early childhood education. In this episode, she joins Melanie to unpack what actually keeps people coming back to community, why she treats scheduled rest as non-negotiable, and how self-awareness shapes the way she leads and connects with others. The conversation also turns personal, with Luiza sharing the story behind her annual "Go Pink" breast cancer fundraiser, and her philosophy of generosity and referrals — connecting people with no expectation of anything in return. 📖 Full show notes and episode transcript available at [EPISODE LINK] If this episode brought anything up for you: 1800RESPECT — 1800 737 732 | Lifeline — 13 11 14 | Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | Blue Knot Foundation — 1300 657 380 International: RAINN, Crisis Text Line, findahelpline.com 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com 💛 Support the show: paypal.me/differentlivingmsw 🎧 HumanCharger discount — code THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE Tags: community building, Zumba, dance fitness, self-care, self-awareness, breast cancer fundraising, Sydney community, work-life balance, personal development Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health (alt: Education > Self-Improvement) Author: The Motivate CollectiveExplicit Rating: Clean

Short Description (Libsyn "summary," ~2–3 sentences): Podcast producer and former sports radio history-maker Robyn Flynn joins The Motivate Collective to unpack microphone technique, content repurposing, and what it actually takes to go viral — plus a candid conversation about online harassment and staying grounded as a public voice. Content note: this episode includes discussion of online harassment, sexual assault, and a case involving postpartum psychosis. Long Description: ⚠️ This episode includes discussion of online harassment and threats, sexual assault, and a criminal trial involving the death of children connected to postpartum psychosis. Listener discretion advised. Robyn Flynn made history as co-host of the first nationally syndicated women's sports radio show in Canada. Today, she runs Studio Quinze, producing up to fifteen podcasts at any given time, alongside Robyn Flynn Media. In this episode, she joins Melanie to break down what actually makes a podcast work — from the most undervalued skill in the medium (microphone technique) to why over-scripted corporate podcasts fail, how to repurpose a single episode into weeks of content, and what genuinely drives a clip to go viral. The conversation also goes deeper, into the online harassment Robyn has faced as a public voice in sports media, how she has built the boundaries and resilience needed to keep showing up authentically, and how she thinks about privacy, consent, and public visibility in an always-online world. 📖 Full show notes and episode transcript available at [EPISODE LINK] If this episode brought anything up for you: 1800RESPECT — 1800 737 732 | Lifeline — 13 11 14 | Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | Blue Knot Foundation — 1300 657 380 International: RAINN, Crisis Text Line, findahelpline.com 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com 💛 Support the show: paypal.me/differentlivingmsw 🎧 HumanCharger discount — code THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE Tags: podcasting, content creation, social media strategy, storytelling, media production, online harassment, sports broadcasting, personal branding, digital privacy Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health (alt: Education > Self-Improvement) Author: The Motivate CollectiveExplicit Rating: Clean

Abbey Pantano, founder of The Impact Collab and coach at The Community Collective, joins The Motivate Collective to share her co-design approach to community building, the "goodwill wheel" philosophy of networking, and how she uses AI and energy-aware systems to run her business on a three-day work week. Long Description: Abbey Pantano's path to community building started with a wheat-stem drinking straw — and led her to co-found a coworking space in the middle of a 2020 lockdown, and eventually to found The Impact Collab, a deliberately capped, 150-person community for impact-led founders. She's also a coach at The Community Collective, helping other community builders design ecosystems of their own. In this episode, Abbey shares her core philosophy — "don't build for community, build with community" — and what real demand-validation looks like when it isn't a disguised sales pitch. She talks through the "goodwill wheel," her five-pillar community ecosystem, turning membership fees into scalable sponsorship for mission-aligned organisations, and the systems and rituals that let her run her business on just three days a week. The conversation closes with a candid look at how she uses AI — with intentional boundaries and deep context — to prioritise her work around her actual energy and values, not just a to-do list. 📖 Full show notes and episode transcript available at [EPISODE LINK] 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com 💛 Support the show: paypal.me/differentlivingmsw 🎧 HumanCharger discount — code THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE Tags: community building, social impact, sustainability, founder wellbeing, AI for business, networking, purpose-driven business, coaching, systems, and productivity Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health (alt: Education > Self-Improvement) Author: The Motivate CollectiveExplicit Rating: Clean

Communications and vocal coach Helen von Dadelszen joins The Motivate Collective to unpack why confidence follows action rather than the other way around. From reframing nervousness as excitement to the breathing techniques behind a grounded, credible voice, this episode is a practical guide to speaking up with more clarity and courage. Confidence doesn't come before you act — it comes after. In this episode, communications and vocal coach Helen von Dadelszen (author of Courageous Action) joins Melanie to break down what actually builds speaking confidence: reframing nervousness as excitement, quieting the inner critic, and mastering the mechanics of breath, pace, and pause. Helen works with researchers, healthcare professionals, and humanitarian staff around the world, helping them translate complex, meaningful work into confident, human communication. In this conversation, she shares the Toastmasters moment that changed how she understands nerves, why perfectionism blocks more speakers than it protects, practical fixes for a voice that isn't being heard, and the simple daily exercise she gives every client for clearer speech. 📖 Full show notes and episode transcript available at http://motivatecollective.com   💛 Enjoyed this episode? You can support the show directly via PayPal: paypal.me/differentlivingmsw 🌿 Want more? Join The Motivate Collective community for exclusive resources, trainings, and events: motivatecollective.com/join ⚡ Special offer for our community: Get 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger — supporting your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence. Use code THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE at checkout. As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast. Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now: humancharger.com Tags: public speaking, vocal coaching, confidence, communication skills, courageous action, personal development, conscious leadership, breathing techniques, imposter syndrome, women's voices Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health (alt: Education > Self-Improvement) Author: The Motivate CollectiveExplicit Rating: Clean

Linda — a Beverly Hills hypnotherapist, transformational coach, author, and founder of Next With Linda — joins Melanie Suzanne Wilson for a wide-ranging conversation spanning decades of hypnotherapy work (including her focused support of the AIDS community in the 1980s and '90s, and past-life regression sessions), the belief systems behind manifestation, and independence after four marriages and four divorces. She shares the story of falling in love at 80 with a partner who was 87, her philosophy that reinvention means building forward from experience rather than starting over, and the digital Reinvention Workbooks and forthcoming book, NEXT… With Linda, she's created to help others do the same. Tags: reinvention, independence, relationships, love after 80, personal development, hypnotherapy, past-life regression, women's empowerment, wellness podcast, ageing well Category: Education > Self-Improvement Author: The Motivate Collective Explicit Rating: Clean   -   🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com Support The Motivate Collective 💛 Enjoyed this episode? You can support the show directly via PayPal: paypal.me/differentlivingmsw 🌿 Want more? Join The Motivate Collective community for exclusive resources, trainings, and events: motivatecollective.com/join   ⚡ Special offer for our community: Get 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger — supporting your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence. Use code THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE at checkout. As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast. Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now: humancharger.com   -   🎉 Join us for our 1st Anniversary Celebration — live in Sydney! The Motivate Collective is turning one, and we're marking it in the best way possible: recording our 100th episode live, right there in the room with you. Teaming up with Voice of Mosman, we're bringing together a year's worth of stories, guests, and community for one big night of celebration. If you're in Sydney or the North Shore, come along to watch the episode come together in real time, meet fellow purpose-driven humans, and be part of the room as we mark this milestone. Thursday 27 August, 6–9pm at Honey Rider Bar, Neutral Bay, NSW. Register via Eventbrite: Connect & Celebrate — The Motivate Collective.      

Episode Title: Janeen Sonsie: Reinvention, Loss & Building a Life From Scratch in France Short Description (Libsyn summary field): Janeen Sonsie joins Melanie for a candid conversation on reinvention, loss, relationships, and building community abroad. Long Description: Janeen Sonsie moved to France at 57 to finally pursue a lifelong dream — and within her first year, faced the loss of her cat, her mother, her father, and a relationship, all during a global lockdown. In this candid conversation, she and Melanie talk through grief, reinvention, relationships without the assumption of "forever," and the masks we wear in public life. The conversation also covers Janeen's career, from corporate training across Asia-Pacific to building a 21,000-member community from scratch, a near-fatal cardiac diagnosis, and her current work training leadership and communication in the yachting industry. This episode includes discussion of parental death, pet loss, and a near-fatal health event. If this affects you personally: Australia — Lifeline 13 11 14, Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636, Blue Knot Foundation 1300 657 380. International — Crisis Text Line (text HOME to 741741), or findahelpline.com. Tags: reinvention, expat life, grief, relationships, personal development, communication, leadership training, resilience, France, women's coaching Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health Author: The Motivate Collective Explicit Rating: Clean

Short Description (Libsyn summary field): From ministry to hypnotherapy, John Queripel joins Melanie to explore belief, transformation, and what faith traditions really teach. Long Description: John Queripel has moved through careers as a school teacher, a Uniting Church minister, a prison chaplain, and now a hypnotherapist. In this conversation, he and Melanie explore how belief and imagination drive real behavioural change, why he avoids creating dependency in his clients, and what his four published books — on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Easter and Christmas narratives, and a comparison of Buddhist and Christian philosophy — have taught him about transformation, literalism, and tribalism. The episode includes discussion of the Magdalene Laundries; support resources are listed in the show notes. Tags: hypnotherapy, belief, personal transformation, mindset, comparative religion, faith, philosophy, self-improvement, wellness podcast, Buddhism, and Christianity Category: Education > Self-Improvement Author: The Motivate Collective Explicit Rating: Clean

Short Description (Libsyn summary field): Dr. Sean Altman joins Melanie to unpack the nervous system, the real limits of AI in healthcare, and why individualised care matters most. Long Description: Dr. Sean Altman practices orthopedic functional medicine, treating pain, injury, and chronic conditions by looking at the body as one connected system. In this conversation, he and Melanie explore what a healthy nervous system actually looks like, how fear and trauma show up physically, why moderation matters even in healthy habits, and the real limits of AI in medical decision-making. Dr. Altman also shares his own experience of professional burnout inside a profit-driven healthcare system, and what it taught him about patient (and self) advocacy. Tags: functional medicine, nervous system, burnout, AI in healthcare, holistic health, wellness podcast, orthopedic medicine, longevity medicine, chronic pain, patient advocacy Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health Author: The Motivate Collective Explicit Rating: Clean

Business coach Karen Lau joins Melanie to talk leadership, discipline, and the mindset shift that turns setbacks into strength. Karen Lau spent years in corporate consulting before training in behavioural science to explore why self-awareness sits at the centre of every leadership challenge. In this conversation, Karen Lau and Melanie Suzanne Wilson unpack what it really takes to lead well, build a business, and stay disciplined when no one's watching — covering the physiology of stress, the true meaning of quality, first impressions, and the personal story that changed how Karen sees every setback since. Category: Education > Self-Improvement Author: The Motivate Collective Explicit Rating: Clean

Embracing Spirituality and Authenticity in Healing and Recovery In this episode, Melanie Little and Melanie Suzanne Wilson explore the vital role of spirituality in healing, how cycles of addiction can be broken, and the importance of authentic connection both online and offline. They share insights from their personal journeys and professional work, emphasizing compassion, humility, and community.   Join the exclusive community of The Motivate Collective to access upcoming live sessions. - https://www.motivatecollective.com/join   Key Topics The significance of spirituality beyond organized religion and its role in healing How acknowledging a spiritual side can break cycles of addiction and stuckness The influence of social and cultural factors on addiction and mental health The importance of authenticity and vulnerability in personal growth and online presence Balancing sharing personal stories while respecting boundaries and privacy The biopsychosocial model of addiction: risk factors and resilience Practical ways to connect with community and foster genuine relationships The impact of social media and societal norms on body image and self-esteem Recognizing motivations behind habits—fear, escape, or genuine health The power of honesty and raw honesty in recovery and self-awareness Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction and overview of spirituality in healing 02:07 - Defining spirituality beyond religion and its connection to healing 04:20 - How modern society seeks comfort and the discomfort of uncertainty 05:46 - The importance of sitting in discomfort for growth 07:17 - Spirituality as a resource in breaking cycles of stuckness 08:33 - Russell Brand's perspective on trust and trusting something greater 09:32 - Connecting with nature as a simple act of spirituality 10:47 - The concept of unfudging oneself and community connection 11:11 - The role of spirituality in recovery programs like 12-step 12:53 - Addressing wounds caused by religious legalism and the safe space in recovery 13:47 - The importance of humility and authenticity in spiritual practices 15:11 - Navigating personal beliefs respectfully in public       -   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective audience: 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.     https://humancharger.com/THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE

# Understanding Cycles in Relationships, Addiction, and Self-Discovery with Melanie Little. Discover how recurring patterns in relationships, habits, and emotions can shape our lives. Melanie Little, a licensed clinical social worker and writer, delves into the science and spirituality behind these cycles, offering insights into breaking free and fostering healthier connections.In this episode: The psychology and neurobiology of repetitive cycles and how they form The mirror exposure effect and its role in addiction and habits How early childhood influences relationship patterns and attachment wounds The impact of social media and modern culture on relationship perceptions Practical strategies for recognizing and disrupting unhelpful cycles The importance of awareness and boundaries in healing and growth The significance of premarital and ongoing relationship conversations How to navigate addiction, attachment, and emotional regulation through mindfulness and movement Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction to recurring life cycles and their mental roots 02:13 - Melanie's journey from addiction recovery to writing 03:31 - The science of familiarity and behavioral repetition 04:53 - How mirror exposure influences

Join the exclusive community of The Motivate Collective to access upcoming live sessions. -   Show Notes:     Discover how Darryle Brown transitioned from a career in law enforcement to becoming an author of crime thrillers. With decades of experience and a passion for storytelling, he shares insights on overcoming rejection, building credibility, and the importance of authenticity in writing. Main Topics: Darryle's background in military and civilian law enforcement, including specialized roles like SWAT and fugitive apprehension The inspiration behind his crime and spy thriller novels is especially blending personal experiences with fictional storytelling The significance of authenticity and credibility in crafting believable crime and police characters Overcoming rejection and maintaining perseverance in the pursuit of publishing success Leveraging speaking skills to promote his books and connect with audiences The value of community and mentorship for aspiring writers Balancing career, family, and creative passions during a strategic career transition In this episode: Darryle shares how his military and police background informs his writing His process of developing characters like Ark Savage and Darren Riker Lessons learned from rejection letters, inspired by Stephen King and Harry Potter's journeys Practical tips on using speaking engagements to promote books The importance of mindset, timing, and community support in creative pursuits His advice for aspiring writers: find like-minded groups, stay resilient, and keep the passion alive Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to Darryle's transition from police officer to author 02:15 - How law enforcement experience shapes his writing credibility 04:40 - Developing believable police and criminal characters 07:05 - Inspiration behind the spy thriller series and character arcs 11:22 - Writing process: From drafts to polished manuscripts 14:55 - Overcoming rejection: Lessons from Stephen King and "Harry Potter" 18:30 - Making the leap into retirement for family and creative pursuits 22:50 - Joining writing groups and conferences for growth 26:10 - Leveraging Toastmasters to enhance communication and book promotion 29:55 - Connecting with audiences through speaking and storytelling 33:30 - Handling setbacks in writing and     -   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective audience: 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.     https://humancharger.com/THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE

Join The Motivate Collective's exclusive community to access upcoming live sessions.   https://www.motivatecollective.com/join   In this episode, Melanie Suzanne Wilson speaks with author and speaker Jen Allee about the emotional and spiritual weight of waiting, why unmet expectations can feel so painful, and how surrender, gratitude, and hope can help us move through seasons that feel out of our control. The conversation is compelling because it turns a deeply personal struggle into a relatable story, which helps listeners feel seen and lowers resistance to the message.     Show Notes       Key topics Waiting, surrender, unmet expectations Why long seasons can feel like withholding Faith, hope, and trusting God in uncertainty Perfectionism, shame, and self-criticism Forgiveness and letting go of burdens Finding purpose in unexpected detours Writing, speaking, and following a calling over time Episode summary Jen shares the long path that led to her book, When Waiting Feels Like Withholding, and explains how what felt like a delay was actually shaping her message. She talks about feeling blocked for years, writing magazine articles that later became chapters in her book, and realizing that her season of waiting was not wasted. Melanie explores the emotional side of waiting, including discouragement, fear, and the tendency to judge ourselves harshly when life does not unfold as planned. Together, they discuss how surrender does not mean giving up; it means releasing rigid expectations and trusting that what we need may differ from what we want. They also cover forgiveness, the pressure of perfectionism, and how gratitude can help shift our mindset during hard seasons. Notable takeaways Waiting is often where growth happens. Unmet expectations can be more painful than the waiting itself. Perfectionism can make us overly critical of ourselves. Forgiveness is about releasing the burden, not excusing the hurt. Purpose can be revealed slowly, in ways we do not expect. Gratitude helps reduce disappointment and refocus on what is good now. Quotes / ideas to highlight "Waiting, unmet expectations and surrender." "I don't think he's withholding from us." "We often have our own expectations." "I needed to learn how to wait well." "What we need can be better than what we want." "I'm a child of God and I'm loved by him." Guest Jen Allee — author, speaker, and teacher Mentioned work When Waiting Feels Like Withholding Companion study guide with reflection questions and journaling prompts Suggested call to action If this episode resonated with you, reflect on what you may be holding onto too tightly and write down one thing you can surrender today. Get Jen's book now.  Book: https://a.co/d/0hES9UjR Study guide: https://a.co/d/03t9Rk82   -   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective audience: 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.     https://humancharger.com/THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE  

Brand strategist Madeline Sargent joins Melanie to explore why storytelling — not logos or ad spend — builds real trust and business growth, plus the honest reality of producing an independent podcast. Long Description (Show Notes): What actually makes a brand memorable — the visuals, or the story underneath them? Madeline Sargent is a brand strategist and host of She Says It, a podcast built around giving women space to share their stories. In this conversation, Madeline and Melanie explore why values — not logos or ad spend — are the real foundation of trust, loyalty, and long-term business growth. Madeline walks through a case study of rebranding a client around her heritage and role as a community builder, and makes the case that not everyone needs to be the on-camera face of their brand to connect authentically with an audience. The conversation also turns candid about what it really takes to produce an independent podcast — the low-cost reality of getting started, how to edit with care when a guest shares something personal, how to avoid burnout by working in seasons, and how AI tools like Claude and Canva fit into a modern content workflow without replacing a creator's own judgment and voice. Connect with Madeline Sargent: 🎙️ She Says It podcast [Website and social handles to be added once confirmed] Join The Motivate Collective community: 🌿 www.motivatecollective.com Tags: brand strategy, storytelling, podcasting, personal development, values-led branding, women in business, content strategy, independent podcasting, burnout prevention, conscious leadership, The Motivate Collective, Madeline Sargent, Melanie Suzanne Wilson, AI and creativity, self-care Category: Business / Personal Development / Marketing Author: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Explicit: Clean

Episode title: Falling in Love with the Audience: Creativity, Spiritual Formation and Finding Your Voice with Andrew Nemr Short description: Tap dance artist, TED speaker and coach Andrew Nemr on burnout and becoming, why our relationships shape who we are, Shakespeare's secret to reaching every audience, and the wisdom of Gregory Hines and Jimmy Slyde. Long description: What does a tap dancer know about becoming a whole person? Almost everything. In this episode, Melanie speaks with Andrew Nemr — tap dance artist, storyteller, speaker and coach — whose creative life spans a decade running his own tap dance company, mentorship from the legendary Gregory Hines, and TED talks delivered while tap dancing. After severe burnout while leading an arts organisation in 2019, Andrew's path turned toward spiritual formation, shaped by the work of philosopher Dallas Willard. Today he coaches artists through the vulnerable work of birthing new projects — supporting not just the skills, but the person the work requires them to become. Andrew and Melanie explore why our relationships are part of who we are, how to interrupt draining conversation patterns, improvisation as deep knowledge in motion, and what Shakespeare understood about writing for three audiences at once. Plus: the Simon Sinek question that cuts through vague messaging, identity as a trailing metric versus formation as the real work, setting boundaries so you pour from the overflow rather than the bottom of your cup, and the advice tap master Jimmy Slyde gave a twelve-year-old Andrew — just dance from your heart. A generous, grounded conversation for speakers, performers, coaches, leaders and anyone standing at the edge of a creative first. Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Tags: creativity, tap dance, public speaking, storytelling, spiritual formation, burnout recovery, performance, coaching, personal development, audience connection, finding your voice, conscious leadership, presence, artist mindset, self development Category: Your standard show category (Health & Fitness > Mental Health or Education > Self-Improvement — match your existing episodes) Author: The Motivate Collective / Melanie Suzanne Wilson Explicit rating: Clean     Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective audience: 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.     https://humancharger.com/THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE

Short description: Garima Verma — writer, director, and digital strategist who's worked at the White House and as Stacey Abrams' chief digital officer — on why community building is harder and more important than ever, storytelling as an entry point for change, and holding grief and joy at the same time. Long description: Content note: This episode includes discussion of grief and the loss of a parent. Support resources are listed below. What does it take to genuinely connect people in a fragmented, isolating world? In this episode, Melanie speaks with Garima Verma — a New York-based writer, director, creative strategist and community builder whose career spans film and television (ABC, Paramount), presidential campaign digital teams, the White House in Dr. Jill Biden's office, and serving as Stacey Abrams' chief digital officer. She has helped build foundations from the ground up, including work on the Virgil Abloh Foundation, and now works at the intersection of storytelling, creativity and social change. Garima shares why everything is political — right down to your groceries and your local infrastructure — and why the complexity of our solutions has to match the complexity of our problems. She and Melanie explore the erosion of trust in institutions, the scarcity mindset that keeps people tearing each other down, echo chambers and algorithm-driven extremes, and why stories — even reality TV — can be a safe container for understanding ourselves and the world. The conversation also goes somewhere deeply personal: Garima's father was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer just as she moved to New York to pursue her childhood dream. She speaks about grieving someone while they're still alive, learning to hold joy and darkness at the same time, and how her mother's creativity became a way of surviving loss. Her message: there's a place for everyone in community and in movements — you just have to find yours, and you're allowed to create your own lane, and your own life. Support resources — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 | Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636 | Griefline 1300 845 745. International: Crisis Text Line (text HOME to 741741) | findahelpline.com Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Tags: community building, storytelling, grief, connection, creativity, social change, conscious leadership, personal development, belonging, echo chambers, resilience, purpose, civic engagement, wellness, authenticity Category: Your standard show category (Health & Fitness > Mental Health or Education > Self-Improvement — match your existing episodes) Author: The Motivate Collective / Melanie Suzanne Wilson Explicit rating: Clean (one bleep-adjacent moment where Garima self-censors, then says "we have to be in the shit" — flagging in case you want to edit or rate accordingly, but it's mild)     Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective audience: 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.     https://humancharger.com/THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE

Episode title: From Rock Bottom to World Records: Sobriety, Faith and Rebuilding a Life with Christopher Charles Burns Short description: Christopher Charles Burns shares his journey from addiction and a broken marriage to sobriety, theological research, and two world records as the first independent Tongan researcher published in peer-reviewed journals. Content note: discusses addiction, infidelity and violence. Long description: Content note: This episode includes discussion of alcohol addiction and recovery, marital infidelity, and an account of gun violence, with brief references to domestic violence. Please listen with care — support resources are listed below. What does it take to genuinely change your life? In this episode, Melanie sits down with Christopher Charles Burns — a Brisbane-based theological researcher with Kiwi and Tongan heritage — whose story moves from fine dining kitchens and gang violence in Auckland, through the dramatic collapse of his marriage, to complete sobriety and academic history-making. Nearly three years sober, Chris has completed a Master of Arts in Theology, submitted his PhD proposal, had four articles accepted into peer-reviewed journals within nine months, and received two world records as the first independent Tongan researcher with peer-reviewed publication. His research explores the concept of truth in ancient Hebrew and Greek texts — and what it means for our post-truth, AI-saturated era. Chris speaks candidly about rebuilding from a single room with a single-seater couch, why the people around you determine how far you grow, dating after divorce, faith without perfectionism, and why change only happens when you truly want it. His message: if you believe that you can change, that you will change. Support resources — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 | Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636 | National Alcohol and Other Drug Hotline 1800 250 015 | 1800RESPECT 1800 737 732 | Blue Knot Foundation 1300 657 380. International: RAINN (rainn.org) | Crisis Text Line (text HOME to 741741) | findahelpline.com Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Tags: sobriety, addiction recovery, personal development, resilience, life transformation, theology, faith, divorce recovery, mindset, conscious living, Tongan researcher, motivation, wellness, starting over, self improvement Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health (or Education > Self-Improvement if that's your standard show category — use whichever matches your existing episodes) Author: The Motivate Collective / Melanie Suzanne Wilson Explicit rating: Clean (no explicit language, but mature themes — the content notes cover this)

Episode title: From Rock Bottom to World Records: Sobriety, Faith and Rebuilding a Life with Christopher Charles Burns Short description: Christopher Charles Burns shares his journey from addiction and a broken marriage to sobriety, theological research, and two world records as the first independent Tongan researcher published in peer-reviewed journals. Content note: discusses addiction, infidelity and violence. Long description: Content note: This episode includes discussion of alcohol addiction and recovery, marital infidelity, and an account of gun violence, with brief references to domestic violence. Please listen with care — support resources are listed below. What does it take to genuinely change your life? In this episode, Melanie sits down with Christopher Charles Burns — a Brisbane-based theological researcher with Kiwi and Tongan heritage — whose story moves from fine dining kitchens and gang violence in Auckland, through the dramatic collapse of his marriage, to complete sobriety and academic history-making. Nearly three years sober, Chris has completed a Master of Arts in Theology, submitted his PhD proposal, had four articles accepted into peer-reviewed journals within nine months, and received two world records as the first independent Tongan researcher with peer-reviewed publication. His research explores the concept of truth in ancient Hebrew and Greek texts — and what it means for our post-truth, AI-saturated era. Chris speaks candidly about rebuilding from a single room with a single-seater couch, why the people around you determine how far you grow, dating after divorce, faith without perfectionism, and why change only happens when you truly want it. His message: if you believe that you can change, that you will change. Support resources — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 | Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636 | National Alcohol and Other Drug Hotline 1800 250 015 | 1800RESPECT 1800 737 732 | Blue Knot Foundation 1300 657 380. International: RAINN (rainn.org) | Crisis Text Line (text HOME to 741741) | findahelpline.com Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Tags: sobriety, addiction recovery, personal development, resilience, life transformation, theology, faith, divorce recovery, mindset, conscious living, Tongan researcher, motivation, wellness, starting over, self improvement Category: Health & Fitness > Mental Health (or Education > Self-Improvement if that's your standard show category — use whichever matches your existing episodes) Author: The Motivate Collective / Melanie Suzanne Wilson Explicit rating: Clean (no explicit language, but mature themes — the content notes cover this)

Creativity, Grief & Inner Wisdom with Branka Cubrilo, writer, artist, and journalist What do you do when the words desert you? In this deeply moving episode of The Motivate Collective Podcast, Melanie Suzanne Wilson sits down with Branka Cubrilo — novelist, journalist, broadcaster, interpreter, painter, and former yoga teacher — to explore what it truly means to live a creative life. When Branka's brother passed away, she returned to Sydney heartbroken and unable to write. Not because of writer's block — but because of what she calls "paralysing sadness." What emerged instead was something unexpected: painting. Over one hundred works in five months. A lifeline she didn't plan for, but that her inner voice led her to. This is a conversation about creativity, grief, storytelling, yoga, social media, visualisation, and the wisdom that lives within all of us — if we are willing to get quiet enough to hear it. In this episode we cover: Living a multidisciplinary creative life — novels, journalism, yoga, painting and more Why storytelling is how we connect with ourselves and the world How Branka's creativity works in pictures — even when she writes The character who visited her in dreams at 4am until 550 pages were written Social media as a curated fragment — not real life What radio broadcasting taught her about voice, clarity, and presence Grief, emotional paralysis, and the difference from writer's block How painting became a lifeline through the darkest period of her life Yoga as a lifelong discipline for creativity, focus, and wellbeing The single lesson that runs through everything: listen within Quotes from this episode: "If you are not in contact with yourself, then with what are you in contact with?" "I don't even consider my work as work. I consider it as great time that I dedicate to myself." "It was not as much writer's block as paralysing sadness." "I think all the answers are within. You know, people ask psychiatrists, psychologists, priests, friends. I think you can work that out. Everyone can work that out." "I listened to my inner voice that led me towards finding the right remedy for myself, which was painting." "That's how we connect with the world. We tell our stories for very different, very various reasons." Timestamps: 00:02 — Welcome & introducing Branka Cubrilo 00:32 — A life across novels, journalism, interpreting, yoga, and painting 02:11 — Grief and her brother's passing — why the words disappeared 04:34 — Storytelling as human connection in the age of AI and social media 06:49 — Looking within — what yoga taught Branka about the inner life 08:30 — Social media as a curated fragment of who we are 11:28 — Radio broadcasting — voice, clarity, and holding an audience 13:50 — Podcasting vs. traditional media 15:00 — How creativity works in pictures — even in writing 18:44 — Showing her most recent painting live 20:00 — Visualisation and the inner eye — something everyone can learn 21:30 — The woman who came in dreams and demanded 550 pages 26:22 — When obsession is not a problem but a calling 28:49 — Growing up in Croatia — Dostoyevsky at twelve, yoga at nineteen 31:00 — Coming to Sydney and opening one of the city's first yoga studios 33:00 — Yoga as discipline and stress relief in a creative life 35:57 — Accepting grief and returning to work 37:00 — What painting unlocked 40:20 — The canvases left untouched through COVID 43:00 — Writer's block vs. emotional paralysis 44:53 — Listening to inner wisdom when everything goes quiet 47:07 — Having conversations with yourself 48:40 — The lesson: listen within Connect with Branka Cubrilo: 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/branka_cubrilo_author/ ▶️ YouTube: https://youtube.com/@brankacubrilo4072?si=ThlELKFTPIEo6jXy Connect with The Motivate Collective: 🌐 Website: https://www.motivatecollective.com 📸 Instagram: [your handle] 💼 LinkedIn: [your handle] ▶️ YouTube: [your handle] 🎙️ Subscribe, rate, and review The Motivate Collective Podcast — it means the world and helps more people find these conversations. Join The Motivate Collective Community: If this conversation resonated with you, come and continue it with us. The Motivate Collective is a community of purpose-driven professionals building lives of meaning, wellness, and conscious growth — through conversations, events, and resources designed to help you live and lead with intention. 👉 www.motivatecollective.com

Five-time award-winning poet Julia Poet joins Melanie to share her story of young caregiving, grief, substance abuse recovery, and how she turned it all into her debut poetry collection Progression.   What do you do when life hands you one of the hardest stories imaginable — and you realise your greatest purpose is to tell it? In this episode of The Motivate Collective Podcast, Melanie Suzanne Wilson is joined by Julia Poet — five-time award-winning poet, author of Progression, and award-winning public speaker — for a deeply honest conversation about grief, resilience, young caregiving, and finding your voice. Julia shares what it was like to become her mother's caregiver at fifteen, to watch a decade of slow decline, and to lose her at twenty-seven — just two years ago. She opens up about the substance abuse that followed, the grief she is still moving through, and the unlikely source of her recovery: a vision of exactly this moment — sitting here, smiling, sharing her story with the world. She also discusses the real face of high-functioning anxiety, the pressure women face to perform happiness, what it means to speak loudly in a world that keeps asking you to quiet down, and why she believes progression is the only option. Topics covered include: Grief and loss — and the fact that it has no fixed order Young caregiving and its impact on identity, ambition, and mental health Substance abuse recovery Toxic positivity and the silencing of women's voices Finding purpose through adversity Spiritual signs and the comfort of belief Being adopted and carrying multiple forms of loss The relationship between writing and speaking your truth Julia's debut poetry collection Progression — on addiction, grief, loss, love, and overcoming — is available now. Tags: grief, loss, caregiving, resilience, mental health, poetry, personal development, women empowerment, substance abuse recovery, finding your voice, toxic positivity, spiritual beliefs, The Motivate Collective Category: Health & Wellness / Personal Development Author: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Explicit: No

Victoria, founder of Twisty Kits, joins Melanie Suzanne Wilson to share the story behind her wax-coated yarn sticks — a screen-free creative toy for kids that started on a single flight and grew into a full product brand. She opens up about moving to Australia, navigating job markets as a new mum with limited local experience, two years of pivoting her ecommerce brand, and the moment the numbers made the decision for her. A grounding conversation about conscious parenting, entrepreneurial resilience, and the beauty of letting boredom be a starting point.

What does sustainable leadership actually look like — and what does it cost when we get it wrong?   Hanna Bauer is the founder of Heartnomics and a globally recognised leadership transformation specialist working at the intersection of people, purpose, and performance. From the age of four, Hanna lived with a severe heart condition that shaped her worldview and eventually her entire career — navigating two heart attacks, multiple failed surgeries, and a pivotal moment of clarity that became the foundation of everything she now teaches.   In this episode, Hanna and Melanie explore burnout, values-led leadership, and the BEAT Method — a practical framework for moving through overwhelm that Hanna developed during her years as a young patient: Believe (what's here now), Engage (with what you have), Act (smallest action possible), Transform (check your progress against your belief).   They also dig into the HEART Framework (Hope, Empowerment, Accountability, Results, Trust), the real cost of hustle addiction, and the liberating practice of learning to receive — not just achieve — in the season you're in.   Connect with Hanna: 🌐 heartnomics.com 🔗 LinkedIn: Hanna Bauer 💡 Free heart alignment assessment: available at heartnomics.com   Join The Motivate Collective community: 🌿 www.motivatecollective.com   Tags: burnout, leadership, values, purpose, personal development, heart disease, resilience, BEAT method, HEART framework, sustainable growth, conscious leadership, Heartnomics, Hanna Bauer, The Motivate Collective, Melanie Suzanne Wilson, performance, alignment, hustle culture, receiving, transformation   Category: Personal Development / Business / Health & Wellness   Author: Melanie Suzanne Wilson   Explicit: Clean   Hanna Bauer, founder of Heartnomics, shares her extraordinary story — from childhood heart disease to global leadership coach — and the BEAT Method she built for sustainable, values-driven growth.  

What if your body has been trying to tell you something for years — and the physical symptom is not the problem, but the message? In this episode, Melanie sits down with Niamh Devine — Irish mind-body mentor, TEDx speaker, TRE practitioner, and former RTÉ broadcaster — for one of the most powerful and practical conversations this show has ever produced. Niamh left a successful broadcasting career at RTÉ in 2016 to travel the world. After surviving trauma in Southeast Asia in 2018, she lost complete function in her left foot for four months. When conventional medicine offered no answers, a Buddhist meditation retreat and deep personal research led her to psychosomatic healing — and waking up one morning to find her foot working again. What we cover: How the body stores emotional and mental charge as physical symptoms The four steps to healing: awareness, responsibility, release, and focus TRE (Tension and Trauma Releasing Exercises) and how it gently releases stored trauma Why you are not here solely to heal — and the danger of focusing only on the wounded self The anchor point practice: a simple daily tool for mind-body awareness Dr John E. Sarno's research and the mind-body connection When to involve a therapist alongside somatic work Niamh's group programme: The Language of the Body 🎙️ Niamh's TEDx Talk "Listen to Your Body" is available on YouTube 🌐 Work with Niamh: search Niamh Devine mind-body mentor 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Subtitle / Teaser: Mind-body mentor and former RTÉ star Niamh Devine on psychosomatic healing, TRE, and the four steps to releasing what the body has been carrying. Author: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Episode Type: Full Season Number: (Enter your current season number) Episode Number: (Enter your episode number) Explicit: No Keywords / Tags: mind-body connection, psychosomatic healing, trauma release, TRE, somatic healing, Niamh Devine, nervous system, chronic pain, PTSD, emotional health, inner work, wellness podcast, conscious living, TEDx, The Motivate Collective, four steps to healing, personal transformation, holistic health Categories: Primary: Health & Fitness → Mental Health Secondary: Society & Culture → Personal Journals Image / Artwork: Upload episode guest graphic or use default show artwork. Publication Date & Time: (Schedule per your release calendar) Enable on All Destinations: Yes — confirm Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all linked destinations are checked.

What if the most powerful wellness tool you have is already inside you — and it costs absolutely nothing? In this episode, Melanie sits down with Kimia Shirkhani — executive operations partner at Cisco Meraki, certified yoga and fitness instructor, and MBA graduate with a background in industrial engineering. Kimia's story is one of resilience, reinvention, and a deeply personal journey that led her from horseback riding in Iran to finding her sanctuary on the yoga mat in the United States — and ultimately choosing to share that sanctuary with others. What we cover: How an industrial engineering background shapes a systems-thinker's approach to wellness The surprising link between horseback riding and mindfulness meditation The eight layers of yoga — and why asana is just one small part of the picture Simple, practical rituals to bring calm into a busy corporate workday How breathwork regulates the nervous system in real time — even mid-meeting Building psychological safety in corporate teams through sensory experiences Kimia's personal story: culture shock, weight gain, COVID isolation, and how yoga became her rope Why you don't need equipment, experience, or an hour to spare to begin a yoga practice The train metaphor: finding the space between your thoughts Connect with Kimia: 🔗 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kimia-shirkhani-69a48214b/ 🧘 Teaching at CorePower Yoga, San Francisco Bay Area 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Subtitle / Teaser: Kimia Shirkhani — yoga instructor and executive operations partner at Cisco Meraki — on breathwork, mindfulness, and why your inner sanctuary is already within reach. Author: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Episode Type: Full Season Number: 5 Episode Number: 8 Explicit: No Keywords / Tags: yoga, breathwork, meditation, mindfulness, corporate wellness, nervous system, personal development, inner work, Kimia Shirkhani, wellness podcast, conscious living, sensory yoga, yogic philosophy, stress relief, The Motivate Collective Categories: Primary: Health & Fitness → Mental Health Secondary: Society & Culture → Personal Journals (Alternative primary: Education → Self-Improvement)

Here are the Libsyn fields for the Julian episode: Title: Learn to Be Comfortable in the Uncomfortable: Personal Development, Paintball & Purpose with Julian Maliszewski Description (Show Notes / Long Description): What does paintball have to do with personal development? More than you'd think. In this episode, Melanie sits down with Julian Maliszewski — personal development coach, former teacher, lacrosse athlete, paintball industry veteran, and founder of T2F Coaching. Julian's life has been anything but conventional: he's lived across the world, played lacrosse internationally, spent decades in the paintball industry, studied philosophy and religious studies, and now channels all of it into helping people get over their mental hurdles. Julian is also a proud supporter of Paintball for Purpose, a not-for-profit organisation connecting veterans with mental health resources, community, and support. What we cover: How sport shaped Julian's approach to resilience and coaching What paintball actually feels like (finally answered) The work of Paintball for Purpose and veteran community support Julian's matchstick approach: accountability, sounding board, and teaching people to help themselves Why we learn more from failure than from winning Taoist philosophy and going with the waves of life Finger people vs thumb people — the accountability conversation nobody wants to have The Finch app and using technology mindfully Why getting outside and unplugging still matters Community investment through not-for-profit foundations Connect with Julian: 📲 @T2Fcoaching on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Threads 🎯 Paintball for Purpose: @paintballforpurpose 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community: www.motivatecollective.com Subtitle / Teaser: Personal development coach Julian Maliszewski on resilience, accountability, veteran support, and why learning to sit with discomfort changes everything. Author: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Episode Type: Full Season Number: (Enter your current season number) Episode Number: (Enter your episode number) Explicit: No — there is one mild instance of casual language mid-episode but nothing that would warrant an explicit tag. Your call based on your show's standard. Keywords / Tags: personal development, coaching, resilience, paintball, veterans, mental health, accountability, Taoism, philosophy, community, not-for-profit, T2F coaching, Paintball for Purpose, mindset, inner work, growth, sport, wellbeing, technology, mindfulness, Julian Maliszewski, The Motivate Collective Categories: Primary: Society & Culture → Personal Journals Secondary: Health & Fitness → Mental Health (Education → Self-Improvement)  

What if changing your brain started with lying on the floor and getting curious about how your foot feels? In this episode, Melanie Suzanne Wilson speaks with Beverly—former Facebook executive and Feldenkrais practitioner—about nervous system regulation, undiagnosed ADHD, perimenopause, and how a single movement class at a resort sparked a 12-year journey of transformation. In this episode: What Beverly witnessed at Facebook during the mobile revolution How perimenopause and ADHD showed up as anger and dysregulation The Feldenkrais Method and why it works when other modalities don't Why curiosity—not correction—is the gateway to rewiring your brain What it looks like to build something slowly, sustainably, and with self-regulation in mind Find Beverly's app at posture.com or search 'Posture' in the App Store or Google Play. 7-day free trial available. Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com

What does a former detective want every woman and girl to know about staying safe in the world? Melanie Suzanne Wilson sits down with Danielle Godfrey — Personal Safety Specialist, founder of Girl Aware, and former Victoria Police detective with 12 years of frontline experience — to talk about the realities of personal safety that most of us were never taught. Danielle shares what she witnessed on the job: romance scams unfolding over the years, predators targeting vulnerable people on public transport, and high-profile offenders caught on CCTV. Through it all, she saw the same pattern — the people most affected were the ones who simply didn't know these things existed. That insight became Girl Aware, an empowerment-based self-defence program for women and girls that starts with awareness, education, and the confidence to trust your instincts — before a situation ever escalates. In this episode, we cover: Why does self-defence start long before any physical contact The truth about romance scams and online danger What prisoners said when shown CCTV footage of women walking The five-step framework: Think, Yell, Run, Fight, Tell Why are women socialised to be polite in unsafe situations How to talk to kids about hard topics The basics that save lives — and why projecting confidence is one of the most powerful safety tools available This is not a conversation designed to scare you. It's a conversation designed to equip you. Connect with Danielle: 📸 Instagram: @danni_t_godfrey | @girlaware_ebsd 🎙️ Listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts — search The Motivate Collective Podcast ▶️ YouTube: @TheMotivateCollective 🌿 Join the community: www.motivatecollective.com

In each moment, we can be our old narrative or our new narrative. What we choose creates our future. In Part 2 of this conversation, Kitty Stitt goes deeper into the wisdom behind her debut book, Living Evolved: Write Here, Write Now — a guide to evolving from chaos to calm by releasing inherited stories and stepping into a life that is genuinely, authentically your own. Kitty and Melanie explore what it means to follow your body's intelligence when society questions your choices, the ancient wisdom of the Red Tent tradition and honouring women's cycles, and how living in alignment creates not just personal freedom but a ripple effect that touches everyone around you. Kitty also shares the moment she cried out to the universe from her home in Newtown — and how eight weeks later, everything changed. This is a conversation about courage, reframing, and the quiet revolution that happens when we stop performing someone else's story and start writing our own. 🎙️ Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3TliziAC0ev5SYZVyEGMWA 🎙️ Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-motivate-collective-podcast-by-melanie-suzanne-wilson/id1834909699 🌿 Join the community: www.motivatecollective.com 📖 Get the book: https://www.amazon.com.au/Living-Evolved-Write-Here-Now/dp/1764019202 🌐 Connect with Kitty: https://www.bykitty.net

_*]:min-w-0 gap-3"> What does it look like to truly hold space for a community — month after month, year after year, no matter what? _*]:min-w-0 gap-3"> Kitty Stitt has been doing exactly that. Based in Forbes, NSW — a small country town five and a half hours west of Sydney — Kitty has facilitated a monthly Full Moon Women's Circle for 55 consecutive months, including one live from the River Ganges in Varanasi, India. She offers one-on-one healing sessions through her business By Kitty, volunteers monthly in suicide prevention with Talk to Me Bro, and brings over 30 years of health and wellbeing teaching to everything she does. _*]:min-w-0 gap-3"> In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Kitty shares what drew her from city life to a small country town, what regional communities know about human connection that cities are losing, and how she uses cacao ceremony, Reiki, intention setting, and Native American teachings to help people feel held, heard, and seen. _*]:min-w-0 gap-3"> She also opens up about the loss of a young man in Forbes whose death prompted the formation of a local Talk to Me Bro chapter — and why showing up consistently, for free, every single month, is one of the most powerful things any of us can do. _*]:min-w-0 gap-3"> 🎙️ Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3TliziAC0ev5SYZVyEGMWA 🎙️ Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-motivate-collective-podcast-by-melanie-suzanne-wilson/id1834909699 🌿 Join the community: www.motivatecollective.com _*]:min-w-0 gap-3"> 📖 Get Kitty's book: https://www.amazon.com.au/Living-Evolved-Write-Here-Now/dp/1764019202 🌐 Connect with Kitty: https://www.bykitty.net

What if the ambition driving your business is actually running from something inside you? Mike Brcic is a serial entrepreneur with 25+ years across multiple ventures, including Sacred Rides Mountain Bike Holidays — one of North America's most successful adventure tourism companies, which he grew from a one-person operation to a global business before his exit in 2019. Today he runs Wayfinders, taking small groups of high-achieving entrepreneurs to remote destinations worldwide for the kind of inner work that changes everything. In this conversation, Mike unpacks the hustle culture trap, the invisible ceiling that self-worth places on income, the difference between real authenticity and algorithm-optimised vulnerability, and why doing the inner work is always more powerful than any strategy or marketing plan. Raw, honest, and deeply practical — this one is for every founder who has hit a wall and couldn't understand why. 🎙️ Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3TliziAC0ev5SYZVyEGMWA 🎙️ Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-motivate-collective-podcast-by-melanie-suzanne-wilson/id1834909699 🌿 Join the community: www.motivatecollective.com 🌐 Connect with Mike: https://way-finders.com ✍️ Substack: https://wayfinders.substack.com

The federal budget dropped and Sarah Harding is back to break it all down — without the spin. In this episode, Melanie and Sarah unpack what the proposed changes to capital gains tax and investment policy really mean for everyday Australians, small business owners, and anyone trying to build wealth from the ground up. From chip shops to side hustles to first-time investors, this conversation gets honest about the economic conditions shaping your financial decisions right now — and what you can actually do about it.

Most leaders aren't struggling because they're not trying hard enough. They're struggling because they've been running on stress for so long that their nervous system has forgotten how to switch off — and that shows up in how they think, communicate, and perform. In this episode of The Motivate Collective Podcast, Melanie Suzanne Wilson talks with Dr Jimmy Fay — chiropractor turned nervous system and performance specialist — for an honest, grounded conversation about what stress and burnout actually look like from the inside, why high achievers are the last to acknowledge the warning signs, and what small, consistent habits can genuinely shift the trajectory for individuals and organisations. Dr Jimmy draws on over a decade of clinical experience alongside his own deeply personal journey through destructive coping mechanisms, grief, and transformation. What he shares isn't surface-level wellness advice. It's the kind of practical wisdom that lands differently when it comes from someone who has lived both sides of burnout. In this episode you'll hear about: The difference between internal and external stress — and why internal beliefs are often the bigger driver of burnout Why the brain responds to mental overload the same way it responds to physical danger, and what that does to cortisol, adrenal function, and long-term health How stress ripples through small startups, mid-sized businesses, and large corporations differently The small, basic habits — natural light, movement, hydration, breathwork — that tend to be the first things dropped when pressure rises Why leaders set the wellness culture of their team whether they intend to or not The truth about why "I don't have time" is really a values statement, not a time statement The warning signs the body sends before it shuts down — and why so many people miss them Dr Jimmy's personal story of grief, destructive habits, and the turning point that led him to this work Diaphragmatic breathing, box breathing, and the most accessible breathwork practices for everyday use Why small, consistent habits will always outperform a big one-off reset What Dr Jimmy's tailored corporate workshops, retreats, and individual sessions look like in practice About Dr Jimmy Fay: Dr Jimmy Fay is a chiropractor-turned-nervous system and performance specialist in Australia. He works with businesses of any scale to address burnout at the source through customised solutions.  Connect with Dr Jimmy Fay: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-jimmy-fay-wellness Connect with The Motivate Collective: Website: www.motivatecollective.com Instagram: @themotivatecollective Join as a member of The Motivate Collective to conect with thought leaders from around the world. -   From an affiliate:  Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective community 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now. https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979   -   Trigger Warning: This episode contains open discussion of suicide, grief, alcoholism, physical assault, substance use, and destructive coping mechanisms. If any of these topics are sensitive for you right now, please take care of yourself while listening. If you need support, please reach out to a crisis service in your country. In Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636. In the US: 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (call or text 988). In the UK: Samaritans 116 123. For all other countries, the International Association for Suicide Prevention maintains a directory of crisis centres worldwide at https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/   -   Transcript   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00) Dr Jimmy Fay, welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. Jimmy Fay (00:05) Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to having you, HM. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:09) For those who don't know, you have been a specialist, health specialist for a while, for a long time, but you also now look at the whole variety of reducing stress. How do you explain to people what you do these days? Jimmy Fay (00:26) It's a really good question because it's a little bit of everything in a way. So when I go to business meetings and do the elevator pitch, it's ever-changing to be honest. But at the moment, the main focus is trying to help individuals and businesses reduce stress, produce people out and overwhelm and allowing people to perform at their best, and what that looks like for everybody is different. You know, some people are entrepreneurs, and then you really want to come and get things off the ground. Other people are working in very high-stress environments with like, you know, multi-million dollar companies and portfolios, and then everything in between, you know, like the stress and overwhelm can overflow into family life and daily life and being a mom or, you know, whatever it might be. So stress, burnout and overwhelm are the main focuses. Then, where that gets implemented will really look like and what strategies I use along. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:24) Let's unpack that from the get-go because there are so many types of stress, overwhelm and burnout. And I totally agree. Everybody has a different experience of it, but I'm guessing you would have seen some trends or some things that keep popping up. There's the burnout where people become either workaholics or they think they need to do too much. But then there's also the other overwhelm where people feel pressure to become something, to achieve extra, and so then there's the stress of feeling like nothing is enough. There are so many angles here. What types of all of these things have you been seeing the most? Jimmy Fay (02:05) You're right. There's two broad categories of, um, when it comes to that sort of stress, there's the internal stresses where we have these beliefs, um, that we need to be doing something or achieving something or being someone in order to be successful and in order to be fulfilled in life. And then there can be external stresses as well. You know, you've got your boss or you've got the family or people depending on you. And that creates a certain level of stress as well. And then most people. I could go in with one or the other. I see a lot of people come with internal stress that is driven through. If I don't do this, then it means this. If these are just stories and beliefs that have been picked up along the way, hopefully or otherwise, that creates a certain level of stress. Now, internally our brain doesn't know the difference between the sun, cheese, tiger chasing us in clear, straight times and the mental stress and overload that we put on ourselves. So biologically, physiologically, it has a similar effect. It's not exactly the same, but you get those high levels of cortisol and stress hormones. And then you get, know, adrenal fatigue and burnout. And so the burnout is quite similar; the things that lead into it can be so multifaceted. The way that we're always trying to work with people is to try and help them from where they're at. Where are they coming from? Where are they on their journey? What are they doing to help themselves or not? And so it's hard to give genetic and widespread advice because everyone's so individual in their approach. And a business and a corporation is its own sort of being, if you will, it's its own entity it's own internal stresses as well, stunning people that are there also. I don't know if that amounts to a good question. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:00) The organisations, you see there's a collective stress at times in organisations. Perhaps everybody could be worried about something in particular, like when some wars were emerging, I was chatting with the travel industry, and they were all collectively anxious about things that impacted their industry. Or perhaps you might have a leader who is just impacting the emotions of everybody around them, do you see these collective emotions that people then flock into like a herd of sheep? Jimmy Fay (04:37) Hmm, definitely. Yeah. It's depending on the size of the corporation or the business, the startup, or whatever it might be. The smaller the team, the more the individual stresses will ripple out and influence the people around them. So if you've got a brilliant person in their mind and they've got all of these ideas and they're trying to get everything done quickly and there's a lot on the line but it pulls out very quickly to a small startup team you know and long nights and being affected by lack of sleep and high levels of stress and anxiety very quickly creates that sort of sense of overwhelm. When you're talking on some medium-sized businesses, the shift is different because there's usually multi levels of hierarchy and different avenues and people responding to different people. So the individual stresses become less obvious, but it becomes your own, that more collective, like we have to breach this, can't be like this, we have to get to this certain point. And if we don't, then we're going to feel the repercussions of that. And then when you go into like, big corporations, multinational sort of stuff, when I work with directors, their level of stress is a very different find of stress because it's so consistent and so repetitive that it actually becomes the normal for their day-to-day living, which is not necessarily the best way to live as far as I understand. But when something becomes so normalised in your nervous system, you don't even really see the forest in the trees. You're getting so burnt out and overwhelmed, but everyone around you is doing the exact same thing. And you don't want to be the one that's holding up the boat. You don't want to be the one that's holding down the team then as they're reaching all these goals. it's, yeah, it changes depending on the level of complexity of the business. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:28) Absolutely. You mentioned the basic needs, like people needing to get more sleep, people might lose sleep when they are getting anxious, and these trends are happening. And then once people get to that leadership point, you're spot on the amount of stress when people are in leadership, that clearly has to change because especially from what we're seeing in the economy these days, it seems like more and more founders are going to emerge. So many more new businesses potentially look, I don't have a crystal ball, but we could say that almost everybody or most people will need to create a business as technology is evolving. So in some way, this is going to affect more and more people, but even for those who are managing hundreds of thousands of people, I'm wondering what they can do to keep their feet on the ground. Because I have seen some leaders who lose perspective, think they are drowning when actually they are finding solutions, or they think they need to isolate themselves to fit the role and fit the image of that title, end up isolating themselves. What do you say to people in leadership who need to maintain their own humanity and support their basic needs? Jimmy Fay (07:55) Hmm, that's a really good question. Guess having a deliberate set of times for self-care and self care again looks different for everybody. But like whatever it is for that individual for that person, it's like, what do they need in order to recharge themselves as a human being, not as a boss or a firm, or CEO or any of those characters, just as a human being wanting to make additional things that they need to turn to. For most people, it's things like sleep, connecting with nature, just breathing. It sounds strange, but I'm just taking some deep breaths. You know, not being on their phone and emails until like the moment before they put their head on the pillow. These are the, I know they sound so basic, and they are, but they're the things that tend to get overlooked, especially when there's a big goal to be achieved. So yeah, the self-care, whatever that looks like. And some people don't know what it looks like. So they kind of have to go on that journey of discovery, what it looks like for them. Even journaling, you know, just writing and getting the stuff out of here, down into the world. Whatever you do with that, some people have to boom and just to let it go. Like, synchronically and physically to let that stuff out of their head. But yeah, not to close down, not to clear them up, not to withdraw from the world around them and often their family around them as well. So it's just making sure that that time is set out strategically, just like the meetings, just like the investor meetings and just like what you do each week or each month, whatever it might be, you're doing that deliberately and purposefully ⁓ every day or at least every week. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:34) Absolutely. We all have different ways to look after ourselves. And one thing we should all have in common is that we all breathe, if not, something is really wrong. The breath. I'm curious about what you would say for people who are in an intensely stressful moment or just starting to perceive things as stressful. Of course, people can feel that tiger fear, whatever, whether it's actually that scary or not. And then we enter a completely different state, and sometimes we're even blind to how we are ending up. So it would be great if you're interested in refreshing for everybody some of the basics with breathing because we take it for granted. You're involved with people who teach mindfulness. I've followed those teachers a lot, but there are some out there who'll just, you know, gasp for air or people. Even today I saw someone teaching, take Big breath in, big breath out. And I was thinking, hang on a sec, can we all slow down? So what do you say to people who literally need to catch a breath for a second? Jimmy Fay (10:42) Yeah, it's a tough one. Like, cause as you see, most people won't even realise that they haven't breathed, they're not breathing well, you know, everyone, there's no proper way to breathe. You breathe the way that your body is needing at the moment. But you know, it's one of those things that think the first thing is just awareness and just being aware that you can actually breathe differently to what is the automatic process that might be going on. So step one is just going, wait a minute. Okay. I can do something different here. The next step is then trying to do it when you're not going to stress start. So just getting used to the fact of when things are calm and okay, and you might have five minutes in the morning or at lunchtime or in the evening, or ideally all three, where you can just go, okay, I'm just going to practice this for a minute or five minutes, whatever it might be. But then as you know, you're going to step into the stressful environment, into that moving or that phone call that you know is going to be a bit sticky. It's like, great, I'm going to practice this more before. I know that this is going to happen. And then it starts to trickle and ripple into the moments of, wait, I have this control here. think it can get to people like, okay, you look stressed, you should just breathe. And they've never done it before. It doesn't really start there. I feel like that's almost the only place that you're going to implement it automatically or deliberately. So you start with the times where it's easiest, and then you work towards the times that are most difficult. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:07) Practice when things are okay. It's like a preparation. Don't wait until you're really needing this. Prepare. Jimmy Fay (12:15) Hmm. And it's the same with anything like my approach to most everything is productivity. So you exercise when you can see, like you eat healthy when you can see you, don't wait until things are falling apart before you start to do something. You can still do it. It just takes a little longer and is a lot more difficult and challenging than your body's used to nervous systems used to doing certain things. So it's way harder once you've already kind of pressed that. that path or that bridge to go back. It's not impossible; it's like proactivity is where we're at now. That's where we promote constantly with the individuals, the corporations, the businesses, everything that we do, it's all proactivity getting proactive and bringing it back to the corporations. I was keen to ask about how people can literally get space and some quiet. I've been in the city for a bunch of days, and honestly, I can imagine it would be in some ways more difficult for people to get the clarity and avoid overwhelm when there's so much around them. It's a big shift for those who've been on the coast for a bit, suddenly. Elsewhere, you're around advertisements everywhere. You're around just all of the things. And in corporate spaces, there's the added element where the leaders can choose how the environment is set up to some extent. But of course, people either have distractions or not. I know these days some people want headphones, whatever it might be. But the question is, Jimmy Fay (13:46) Hmm. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:57) When organisations are setting up a physical environment or even just setting up a standard for their team, maybe they're going to say, I'm not going to pressure everybody to work through lunch and I'm going to let everybody have five or 10 minutes because that could mean they are thinking more clearly later. What can people do? What are the basics that people can do to make sure, well, to prevent that overwhelm? Jimmy Fay (14:25) The beautiful thing about, part of the beautiful thing about the work of home movement is you can set up your working environment deliberately and pretty much however you want, as long as you're getting your work done, is great. I think it's one of the real positives for movement, and I think that's why it's going to stick around indefinitely now. So when you have to all over it. Obviously, if you're in an office space where you just, it's mandatory to be there and you can't have a lot of influence or control. There's certain things you can do, but you can take it in once, I guess. So the ones that are real is not a lot. It's a huge thing. So, not sitting in a room with the blinds closed, and you know, fluorescent lighting is one of the worst things. but the booklet from the computer screen, from the phones, from the tablets, from whatever it is that you're using. Having multiple light coming in from the window is super important for a multitude of different reasons. So step one is: make sure there's the light if you can. If it's not a possibility, try and get out into the night for light as often as you can. So every hour or so, just get out, go for a walk, grab some warmup, go out, put your feet in the grass if you can connecting with nature, that's like step one. If you can bring the greenery inside, even better, so natural plants, there's some amazing indoor plants that are designed to help freshen the air, they're natural air fresheners. So that would be a good thing. I've got this awesome little plant in the background here, which I leave. We've got some other ones around the room as well, so natural greenery. Again, just do something with your brain, and it's often zero too. Happy to play cycling through. If you have again, availability of having a window open or airflow through, that's a really good thing too. And you'll find all of these will really help with energy, especially through the day. So natural light, greenery, air, getting out as often as you possibly can, just allowing the blood flow, your nervous system to kind of reset and give a good stretch into your spine and into your nervous system. And then if you have the availability to sit and stand at the sit-stand desk. They're brilliant. So sit for an hour, stand for an hour, sit for an hour, stand for an hour. And just, it just shakes up your brain, your body and your nervous system. Um, and just, just keeps you going. Now you can go more complex. can have these little, little headmills that people walk on when they're doing work and stuff. And you can have like a foot, you know, vibrating form thing that you can put in there, and you can have a chair that does all the work. You can go as far as you want with it, really, but my mind's always just trying to get back to it as possible, air, fresh light, greenery, move your body, drink plenty of water, you'll feel significantly different at the end of the day just doing those few things than you would if you didn't. When you're in the infospace, you become a little bit more limited, but some of those things still apply. If you can sit near a window, if you have the availability to sit near an open window or a closed or open window, if you can bring a little green plant into your desk, do that sit stand desk or a big thing in the office as well. So you can apply some of these things there, but you just don't have as much freedom to do with. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:39) Going back to the basics and what I'm getting from this is that people don't need all of the gadgets, all of the fancy gadgets, or even in some spaces with the entrepreneurs or the people who have freedom, even people are taking their devices to the treadmill. I'm guilty of that. Other people would be enjoying that habit, but then it's staring at a device. And just moving on a machine, and we do what we do, especially on a rainy day. However, it sounds like what you're saying is connect with nature. And so the plant inside is probably a start, but I'm guessing you'd recommend also that people need to get out when they can, whether it's lunchtime, whether it's before the start of the day. Is that going to be crucial to see the sky a bit as well? that going to help? Jimmy Fay (18:27) Yeah, absolutely. It's like I said, like there's different levels of where people are out and what they need and what I often recommend. But if you're not doing the basics, it doesn't matter what you are into. If the foundation is shaky, you can't build a house, right? So we're not going to try and build a house on mud. We're going to just try and make sure that the foundation is there. And the foundation is, obviously, it's very simple. It's like connecting with nature, being grateful for what you live, like breathing and being deliberate with how you do that. The things aren't difficult, but they tend to be the first things that go when we become stressed, which is our roommate, because they're the exact things that we need when we're stressed. And I'm guilty of it too. I'm not sitting on any high horse here. I know I can spend too much time on my phone. I haven't been to the gym, I haven't moved my body in a few days, and I feel it. I really noticeably feel it. So the answer to your question is absolutely right basic, you know, just ballistic self care. If you're not doing it, just doing it will be a game-changer. If you are already doing it, then the other levels start to become more powerful to confound on top. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:38) Okay, here's a corporate angle for that one. People are going to say, I'm too busy to do these things. That would come up so much. Jimmy Fay (19:48) It is pretty much the one, the biggest objection I've ever gotten to anything you should do with this is I don't have time to do that for sure. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:57) And of course, the thing I was going to ask was, we must have some sort of idea of a return on investment in some way, whether it's people are getting the mental clarity to then get things done more quickly, or if they are looking after their health, then they are going to create a better culture for the team, whatever it might be. I think we do need to convince people a little bit here because truly there will be those ones who are saying they are too busy, but everybody probably will have a moment if they haven't already where do you see normally with leaders in particular that there's a breaking point, especially whether it's self care, but more so with the extreme burnout where eventually people get to that moment of realization where they do have to do these things. Jimmy Fay (20:46) Yeah, usually it's a pretty big health scare, I guess is the best way to describe it. It's usually when something, they get the diagnosis of cancer, diabetes, heart disease, which are big stress, know, they don't need it as well. might just stress, you know, people with high levels of consistent long-term phlegm have much higher levels of diabetes and heart disease and stroke and anxiety and all these sorts of things. So unfortunately, like I was saying before, when you start to get more to the top levels of a corporation as far as directors and big decision makers, they're surrounded by people who praise that sort of behavior, like working 18 hour days and giving out weekends and doing this is, it's not so much in a lot starting to push now, but for a long time, this was seen as you get to the top in the first place. So if you're going to be like, I'm going to take a mental health day, you just, you know, don't think about what I'm saying. What's going to happen when you go back to my memory? All that stuff goes along with it. Excuse me. Yeah. The internal belief system is what has to shift first, especially if it's been there for decades, which it usually pays me that stage. don't generally don't start at CEI. So you kind of worked your way to there, and yeah, the belief of what's getting you there is smothering us to change in order for the habits to change because your habits are just a representation of your beliefs. And if your beliefs are, need to do this, this and this in order to be successful and keep this job, then your habits will reflect that. So that's why I don't have time. That's what people say. It's everybody can stay. Literally, we both know that, right? Even the people that save their time from time, they deep down, even just below the surface, they know they have time. But what they don't know is a strong enough belief or reason or value in order to take that time from something and put it into their self-care. Because the value on the self-care is not as far as whatever the value is, and it's different for everybody, that's driving them to not do it in the first place. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:03) Absolutely. There are the ones who have climbed the ladder and there are also the ones who perhaps built a business from something small to something great. Either way, they climbed in some form, and they feel a need to maintain that, but they need a more sustainable, healthy way to make that happen. I'm going to ask a slightly controversial question. Jimmy Fay (23:24) Hmm. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:27) Because these are all the good coping mechanisms. What wake-up call can you give to the people in leadership? Look, I wish that all of them would be listening to this, and some won't be, but they need to hear this. The ones who are going to the unsustainable and irresponsible coping mechanisms. for dealing with their work. The mild form, potentially mild, is that countless leaders and managers would be probably having one extra glass of wine at night, and that's all they're doing to cope. And it gets more extreme than that. So I'm wondering, for those who are going to those classic slightly destructive, they know it's a step away from too much, those habits, how can those people shift from that to doing these strategies that, yes look wholesome but are going to actually work. Jimmy Fay (24:25) Hmm, that is the million-dollar question. The ultimate answer is, like me and you, you don't. We don't. The person has to decide for themselves that something needs to change. And that's when I first started this one, not the corporate stuff, but when I started. You know, being a health care practitioner was like, right, I'm going to save all these people, and I'm going to fix them. And all I'm going to do is just tell them what they need to know. And then they'll change because why wouldn't you? Like the logic is there, and the knowledge is there. Why wouldn't you do it? And over the years, I've just realised, although I'm a victim, over the years it's become more and more apparent that nobody changes until they win. And so those little destructive habits become candid and bigger and bigger and bigger and tense and more frequent and more extreme until you hit rock bottom or you have a heart attack or you have a stroke or you whatever, whatever it might be that bring us something in your brain to be like, okay, it's time to change now. And some people get that warning, and they make the change, and other people don't. it's, that's, that's just their journey. But it's my goal is to kind of ripping the door to be like, here it is if you want it. When you're ready, let's talk, let's do it. If you're not ready now, that's cool. It's not my journey. It's not me to force this on anybody. I've got what I think are some really powerful tools for beginners, intermediate and advanced people really wanting to expand their self-care practices. And you just let me know when you're ready, and I'll be ready and waiting. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:07) People have to want to change. That's, that's crucial. They have to want to. I'm very curious. You went from a relatively traditional healthcare space to then doing what you do now. And in all of that, where did, where did these strategies fit in with how you maintained your career without getting burnt out? Jimmy Fay (26:29) A lot of these things came along through my own self-development, more than just knowledge. So I was one of those people that turned to destructive habits to keep up with the things in my life that I've had to deal with. I grew up in a really terrible, pretty terrible environment, really. And my brother took his own life when I was young, and my mum became an alcoholic. My brother, like it just, all quickly for me in my life, and I was assaulted and put in hospital for weeks and yeah, and I didn't know how to cope with it. knew. So I turned to alcohol and drugs and porn and women and just all the things that I just got more extreme and more intense and more frequent because I didn't know how to deal with it. I wasn't taught. didn't know where to look. And so that was the best thing that I knew how to do. So when I'm talking these coping mechanisms, it's both a personal experience and understanding from a more medical or scientific side of things as well. So my journey came when I lost, my partner left, it was like the fourth long-term relationship that my partner just kind of left. And I was like, I'm doing something wrong here. Like there's gotta be... I got to be as a person, not just as a partner, but just as a person. And so I started, that's where I started my journey. And I went to men's retreats, and I went to and started yoga, and I went and started doing breath work, and met these people along the way. And I have an amazing partner now who I met along that journey. And, she's helped me so much as well, but everything that I teach is something that I've learned, and some of it is really helpful, and I stick with it all the time. Some of it is really helpful, and it's just not for me, so I still recommend it for certain people. So there's nothing really that I recommend for people that I haven't at least wanted to give a little proper clinic and understand, sort of, how and whether it's trying to help people. And that's allowed me to kind of build this repertoire of tools that I can recommend for people and try and help them on their journey. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:41) There's so much in that you did have those early experiences that you needed to cope with. And chances are, some people who are trying to deal emotionally with their careers are still stuck in the same emotions and coping angles that continued from early on. That would be happening so much. And it's worth acknowledging that you are with one of the best teachers that I've ever seen. So you're really learning from the best. I seriously met someone further down the coast who's saying it's this person. So absolutely. You're surrounded by people who really know what they're talking about, but you said that you pick and choose what you follow. I appreciate that so much because for me personally, I can't get onto the ice bath bandwagon. just, there's something about it for me and whereas if people like that, then great. And the logic through all of this is that we're freeing people up to say you don't have to do all of the things. Is that part of your message? People don't have to do everything. You're not more enlightened just because your room is at a particular temperature or your water is at a particular temperature. Jimmy Fay (30:00) No, no, absolutely not. You can't do everything. There's literally not enough time in the day to do all of the practices. So, no, it's really much picking and choosing, you know, and it's my recommendation for everybody, especially if you're starting out, is 10 minutes a day. You know, 10 minutes a day. And if you can, like, get out on the grass, I mean, if the sun's shining or even if it's not, you can do it in the rain, much like get out on the grass. Take some deep breaths, move your spine, move your body, share some quality. Like you've already knocked down four amazing positive moments, and it's five minutes, 10 minutes, you know, if everybody did that, the whole world would be different. Unbelievable. Now, does an hour of yoga practice? It does. But if you don't have time to do that, do 10 minutes, do five minutes. Like it's, it doesn't have to be complicated, and you can't do everything. So don't even put your head in that space, just be like, I'm going to do what we can do with the time that I have. If people have got busy and three kids at home and the mother-in-law is unwell, and then got to go to do it, like it's, there's just not time. Just be kind to yourself, be kind to where you're at and just do something, just whatever it might be, just do something, and that bed space will start to expand. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:18) Do something, anything and adapt. There the mic goes. One second. Is it steady? Yes, the mic is steady. I want to touch the mic. Yes. So. People need to adapt to the amount of time and the environment that they have. I totally agree. And I reached a point recently where for a moment, I didn't want to, I didn't trust using the floor that was available. So I had to do some stretches against the wall. If someone literally has no floor, then use a wall. Or if someone can get a little patch of grass for five minutes instead of an hour, then that's something, and it's not about being impressive. It's just going back to the basics. That's your key message. The basics will help. And you're saying something that quite a few people on the show have been reinforcing, whether it has been a lawyer or a neuroscientist or what you do, people are saying, get the hydration and just look at the sky, do those simple things. You mentioned moving the spine, and you did have a background doing work with physical health. So I am keen to ask because although this is mainly emotions, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the physical pain and the emotions could be intertwined. But people do end up, people end up with aches, whether they're sitting at a desk for a long time or people get headaches from stress, all sorts of things. And so it would be interesting to see if you have any tips for things like that, where people know they're not, they feel pretty sure, and of course, people need to seek the right advice at the right places. But if someone feels pretty sure that they don't have some sort of condition, but they're just getting aches, what's a good place to start? Jimmy Fay (33:10) Just get out of your chair. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:12) Okay. Jimmy Fay (33:13) We're pretty basic, so we're doing it. Sphishing, sphishing at the base level. This is, I guess, the point that's coming across in all of this is like, if you're not doing anything, just do something. So I recommend to people, if you're sitting at a desk and you don't have a sit-stand or whiskey, you don't have an option or availability, set a time when you're free and get out once and around everywhere. Just get in, walk to wherever the nearest sink is and get some water, drink some Yuma, sit back down, go back to work. That's... That's literally the start point. So when you do that, it'll stretch out your spine. It'll allow the blood flow to circulate again, especially into your limbs, because it's been coming for the whole time. It's all your hamstrings and your fascia and your tissues and all sorts of stuff. And it gets your brain away from the screen, the tasks, because what have you been doing? Especially if you work with your head and doing. So if you're reading a lot or counting a lot, what you've been doing, getting out and stretching your spine in the other direction, it just has huge amounts of benefits. So, 30 seconds once an hour getting it moved, there's a huge amount of resources in there. This one is like desk structures that you can do. So if you want to take a little bit of that, you may do two or three, five minutes of that, even better. And then, as you said, mentioned earlier, like getting outside for your lunch, don't sit at your desk and stuff down food, scrolling through your phone. I get away from all the time, get inside, even if it's a bit cold inside and lonely, like even under cover, just that stimulation for your nervous system is going to be really good for you. So set the time on getting and move a little bit or as much as you possibly can. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:52) Get out at all. It can be anything. That was, I like how simplified this is. There's a version of this for everybody. So it seems like whether someone is working alone or guiding a team, this does look very practical, but beneath the practicalities, it's the mindset of accepting that habit and allowing the time to do that. There's a lot more flexibility now that people work from home so much, and there's flexibility because there's a lot more understanding in the world about why these things are needed. But I can absolutely remember the times in corporate spaces where people really disapproved, or there was a shame feeling, or people basically assumed someone was doing less work if they got up for a few minutes. There are maybe those spaces still exist, but it's the assumption that someone is achieving more if they're not taking a break. And it seems like what you're saying is people are not going to achieve more by not taking a break. Jimmy Fay (35:59) No, they'll work longer, but they won't achieve any more necessarily. No. It's going to. Look, if the manager, the leader, the boss, the founder, whatever, is setting these as standard practices for themselves as an individual, then it took us down so quickly to everybody. Even if it's not mandatory or enforced, they're like, the boss has taken his walk around, know, he's going to the water cooler, it's what people continue to do. Then that's what actually changes culture. That's what changes the internal system, that internal stress that we were talking about at the beginning. That's the sort of stuff that will change you, not writing in your CV for like, know, get it and has to get up and stretch this file. That's just going to possibly present them. But if you see the bosses, you see the managers, you see the leaders doing And then you do it, and you're like, it's going to city like that. That's called the shifting sort of stuff, rather. It's very basic. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:58) Seeing people in leadership doing that, it'll make a difference. So if anyone is leading even a few people, they need to set the example, set the standard, because then everybody else will follow that. And I'm considering that these things could be done if someone is even travelling a lot, because people do still travel, perhaps from one side of the state to the other or from the other side of the country. And if someone is even having a one or two-hour trip, then that's a lot of sitting, especially of course, How many will just be staring at the phone on long trips, and it's the same neck for so long, there's the option to do the same thing, exactly what you described, walk down the aisle of a train or a plane, or whatever it is, get up do any small movement, which that help for travel as well Jimmy Fay (37:33) Yeah, totally. And the breathwork sort of stuff can be very much expanded when you've got those blocks of time where you're on an aeroplane or you're on a long commute. Yeah, you can kind of go deeper and wider into different styles of breathwork because there's so many, as I'm sure you're aware, like it's a practice that's been around for thousands of years. Yogis and Chinese medicine has been using the different forms of it for a long time. There's interesting and great versions that have come to the West, but there's also much simpler forms that are much more accessible just to everybody, regardless of age or ability, out there as well to discover. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:30) The simple ones. What are the simple versions? Jimmy Fay (38:33) And your symptom basically is just learning to breathe into your, into your demopharm or into your abdomen. So diaphragmatic breathing stimulates your vagus nerve, which puts you into a parasympathetic state. So it's like a rest and digest state, which can only be not only, but one of the ones to activate it is via the, via the vagus nerve and via diaphragmatic breathing. I've worked with many people that first they didn't even know you could possibly do them. And it took them. Sometimes they need days of practice to even be able to take a single full breath into the belly, into the abdomen. So it's, it's one of those baseline things I was talking about. If you get the basics right, then you can build on it, but just learning that you can and how to breathe into your abdomen is the most basic one. The next one is the one we're thinking of is box breathing or square, square breath is what they call it. So you're just breathing in for a count of four, example, hold for a can for itself for four, hold for four. there's, there's modifications and variations to that. You can put pauses in certain spots as well. Um, and then there's like other breath works with breath work, I guess you'd call it, where you breathe in for four and breathe out for six. We can do the opposite. can breathe in for, um, we've been from longer breathing for shorter. So it's more of a forceful exhale. there's the ones that we've learned through the yogic practices are they're accessible. The yoga in India, for example, is designed for people of all ages, not just people who are flexible and able to hold big poses like in Riyasa, for example. So both work and mindset and meditation and movement practices in India are very different to one that are in the West. When I talk about yogic breathing or yoga breathing, it's not necessarily what people may think necessarily if they haven't seen that style before, but it was really interesting to travel through India and see how more accessible yoga as a whole is to regarding importance of aging capabilities. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:40) It's accessible to everybody. Jimmy Fay (40:42) I saw 90-year-olds doing what they call yoga, what the Indians call yoga. You wouldn't see a 90-year-old really doing like a vinyasa or a bhikram. That's a westernised version of what they were doing. It was just movement. Just moving the joints, taking deep breaths, being mindful of where they were. That's what yoga is in Indian culture. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:07) That's worth looking at for a second because there are people who are continuing their careers or trying to stay active in some way at those older ages. What did that movement look like for a 90, 91 year old? Jimmy Fay (41:14) Hmm. Well, again, there's many different versions. I to an Ayurvedic hospital and did a punchy climber, which is a couple of weeks of traditional ancient Indian medicine, a preventative sort of stuff as well. Every morning we'd get together, and so you'd start sitting on the floor, and you'd just basically move your knees into certain directions and then you'd move your ankles in certain directions, and you'd twist them around, and you go back the other way, and you go down and go up, and you go down, and you go in. So it's just trying to move the joints in all the ranges of motion. And you start from the toes, and you work your way all the way up, up and down, down into your hands and fingers, you do your neck, you do your eyes, you do your tongue, you do literally every part of your body. You activate, and you create movement, you know? And then the areas that are sticky and stuck, you breathe into them, and you be curious about them and you stay with those sensations, and it becomes a mindful practice in its own of where your body is giving you feedback. I'm stiff, I'm tired, I'm sore, there's pain there, there's stiffness there, that's your body giving you that feedback and they take the time, the ones that practice this, they take the time to sit with those feelings and study them as well. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:42) Sit with the discomfort as well as the comfort and observe what's happening. There are a few counter-cultural things there that are worth acknowledging. Aussies in particular, I don't want to sit with discomfort. So we're saying it's okay to look at discomfort and ask what is that telling me? But I really appreciated the simplified movement that you're describing because again, I don't take for granted that you come from a yogic space where people know the real intention and the accessibility. One phrase that they use that I wish everybody would use is that any amount of the pose is the pose. Whereas I've been seeing some people elsewhere who are kind and good-intentioned in what they're doing, but there's a total expectation to reach the headstand. And it's just so detached from, okay, am I just focused and being in the moment or breathing all of those things? So there's a stereotype. There absolutely is still the assumption out there that people are having to be flexible or whatever it might be. That line, I don't know if you still get people saying that, but out there, as some will say, I can't do that. I'm not flexible enough, but it can be simple. That's great for people sitting at a desk, move anything, right? Jimmy Fay (44:10) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just your body will become very good at whatever you ask it to do repetitively. So if you sit at a desk, your body is going to actually get very good. It's going to adapt, and you know the system is going to change your spine and the joints, the ligaments, tongue, everything. Everything is going to change in order for you to be a world champion desk sitter and do anything else. What do you think is going to happen? Your body's just going to slow down. something like, wait a minute, I'm really freaking good at sitting at a desk, and now you want me to get up and go for a gel? No, no, no, no, no. Let's set up for this desk sitting thing. know what I mean? Like this is the internal thing that goes on. So that's why change is fun. That's why any change is fun because you're not a system integrates the changes and then physically will shift and change your body to represent what the nervous system now understands to be the most important goal. So if you start to get up, you're going to feel stiff and sore in that process. It doesn't mean it's bad. You give up smoking, you start packing up your lungs because the body has to change and adapt into the new situation. It's the same thing. So the answer is just to believe, but no, if you haven't done much of it, it's going to feel pretty crappy to begin with. And then you do more of it when your body gets used to it. And then you do more of it, and it starts to become enjoyable. And then you do more of it. And eventually, if you don't do it, then you start to feel comfy. It goes back the other way. So it's just, it's one of those things, being aware of the dynamic and being aware of the shift that's going to happen. Your body will resist it. And that's where a lot of people give up. They're like, it doesn't feel good. My body's telling you to stop. Technically, yes, but. When you look darker than that, it's absolutely a no. Your body's just giving you feedback, but you're not sitting very well, which is what it's gotten really good at doing. So, just, you've to look a little bit more at yourself as well. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:10) You get used to what you get used to. It seems like that's true for an organisational culture and for the individual's physical presence. So step one, it seems like it's extra, extra important to not have just a day or a moment of doing the right thing, but setting up sustainable habits, something that's actually accessible. And that goes back to what you said about how people might not have three hours every single day, but the small ongoing habits it seems will be more useful than doing a lot once. Jimmy Fay (46:50) Yeah, a hundred per cent. Yeah, it's ungated. And a business, like I said before, it's just its own organism. It's almost like a human body of its own shift and change within an organisation is painful because you've just gotten used to it. The systems the processes are impolite. You're on it. That's sustainable. Smaller, more consistent efforts are way, way more important than ideally week-long retreat or a once a month massage day, you know, like they're good. I'm not against those ideas. If you actually went with a gift and chain internally that sticks, you're like, the smaller, more consistent efforts are where it's at. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:31) That's fascinating that places do have those one-off days, and they need the sustainable habits. I'm wondering where people should seek more information or whether they should be educating themselves, because I'm inspired by what you said. Some specialists, months ago, were asking me if they could have half a day of learning sustainable, healthy resilience, all those things. And honestly, of course, I only listen to the experts more, you know, I listen to people like you, but it was just this day, and I'm wondering, well, okay, people need to remind themselves of these things. Do you see people needing the ongoing self-education of perhaps a reminder on the phone, or reading up on something or do you think it needs to just be simplified? Maybe someone just needs to jot down one or two strategies from this conversation they listen to and then just remember to do it. For me, I find that for some habits, I need a reminder in my calendar to say, " You're going to do this thing." And it's not an appointment. It's a habit. Do you find that people need to either access resources or at least create the systems for themselves individually to make sure these things happen? Jimmy Fay (48:52) Yes, think that's one way to keep accountability for the self. If you're wanting it to be more systemic and be more cultural boost, it, needs to be done. It needs to be part of what happens all the time. Just as when things are starting to look a bit more shaped and the departments are not getting along anymore, and it's a major collection, then it's pretty ingrained, you know, so it becomes a lot harder to make those shifts. The is that real individuals definitely have the capabilities to wake up. Every Tuesday morning or every morning at 10 a.m., I'm going to get up, and I'm going to go for a movement, and I'm going to do it all. So that's a really good way to do it. But as I said before, if it's not completely going from the type, it's really going to the individual to consistently stick with it if the people around them aren't also on board or at least know what they're doing. Just going back to what you're saying about those, you know, those five-day events or the, you know, the once-a-year or twice-a-year things, it's, it can often be a representation or a reflection of how the leaders, how they look after themselves. It's just a, they're just reflecting, they're like, oh shit, I'm feeling really stressed at the moment. I need to go have my spa day. And that's how they look after themselves. So that when the corporation or the business feels stressed. They're like, ⁓ I know how you work. Yes. You take them on a sparring. And we know, you know, this is no judgment on anybody on how they're gonna connect to themselves, but the business, especially as the corporations get bigger, like the HR departments and the people in folks, they're in these people who work, that's the specific role is to make sure that the workers are happy and capable. If they're as individuals, if they're not consistently looking after themselves. Where are they drawing these ideas from? How are they going to look after the people in the corporation itself? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:46) So to look after everybody, it has to start with looking after this self. This is interesting. It's interesting saying that you've experienced people reaching a breaking point and then looking for recovery or a cure instead of a prevention in a corporate space. Jimmy Fay (50:52) the voice. Yeah, very, very exciting. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:10) Do you think part of the reason is that people are just so distracted by their other corporate goals, and then they perhaps need to just keep this up higher in the priority list to have a sense of urgency early on? Jimmy Fay (51:27) Like I said before, it comes to values. It's what they believe and what they prioritise up until the breaking point, because then the priorities and the values will instantaneously shift when they go to the doctor and the doctors look right, you have to go back outside. Instantly, their value and their hierarchy changes. What we believe to be important shifts instantaneously because you don't have that, it doesn't matter what you have in the world. So, unfortunately for some, the tipping point is not what the value shift has to happen. Like I've said, for me, it was like another relationship breaking down, and there was that obvious point where I'm like, okay, I have to do something different here if I want something different. So everybody has the point where they're built up to. Now those figures are different for everybody. And what figures those things and when those things are triggered and are strongly, and how big this shift happens, that's all very individual. So it's the value system is the one that needs to be looked at and witnessed. So the people will be something for self-care is really basic, right? Get out in nature, drink water, look after yourself in these simple, holistic ways. But for the more complex places that we work with, it's not about knowledge. They know what they need to do. It's not about knowledge. They have the knowledge. They just don't have the know you that refrauds. Knowledge will implement and create in their life. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:07) It's values. That's opening my eyes, and that's shining a light for so many people because that's deeper than priorities and it's deeper than a sense of urgency because if someone wanted something to happen sooner, then they would make it happen. And what you're describing where you had yet another relationship, and once you realised something had to change, everybody is going to Okay, I'll say something that's going to tell people: don't wait until the breaking point. You have a breaking point, and I can say that I once again was in one of the best social connections of my life, and then I was having those childhood-derived fear-based panics, and then after a while, I'm going, seeking the yogi guidance to try to figure out, okay, it's too late for the prevention. So we all have those breaking points, but the reason why I'll urge people don't let it get to that point is it's all great to talk about how there were breakups and so on. That's all great. But for me, my example is go back to my grandmother when she realised she had cancer, it was on her spine. She was about to be paralysed or die. And we don't know what caused that, but there will be versions out there where some people reach the breaking point they couldn't recover from. So if someone is listening to this and they're thinking, okay, I'll keep going how I'm going, and eventually I'll burn out and collapse and then I'll sort myself out. We don't know how bad that could get. Even when I had my tibial plateau fracture, I was rushing around like mad, and I thought, I'll just slow down later and now I still have metal in my leg. People have to, yes, value the right things sooner. And you mentioned being proactive. And for an organisation, do they really want to wait until there's a severe conflict between departments? Do they really want to wait until there's a crisis to fix, or do they want to have less crises? Do you think that's what part of this comes down to? Jimmy Fay (55:06) Hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's a very similar, very similar thing. Like the business will build and build and build and then eventually it will connect and factor in, depending on the severity of, you know, what's going on, will the company may or may not last, just like the person may or may not continue, you know, so it's, there's so many similarities between those two ideas. Obviously, a business folding or the way it is much less catastrophic than someone passing away or not being able to recover from an extreme event. Ultimately, it's the signals for most people. It's not always the chemists, but most people, there's always warnings. There's always signals that something is heading in a direct bend that is not going to end well. For most people, the biggest things that they'll see is sleep and energy that the sleep will become affected, their energy will drop off. And obviously, those two things are pretty closely linked and related. And then their ability to hold stress. So when we talk about the capacity to hold stress, it's how much stress can happen before you feel overwhelmed and overloaded and something and don't want to be around people and lose, we give sort of states that we get into. So if you're noticing that you're feeling in that state, like you've gotten to the point where little things that the kids used to do, you didn't really care, and now it just grates you, it just kind of doesn't feel good for you. That lady in the washers that fumes too loudly, normally it wouldn't bother you, but all of a sudden, what we know, you're just like getting grated by it. These are just the warning signs. These are the little subtle symptoms that, achingly, I'm not coping as well as I may be able to. I'm not sleeping as well. I'm getting really tired in the afternoons and losing like my motivation and my energy. These are the little whispers that start. And then the whispers, if ignored, start to get louder and become your body starts talking to you. Pains and and pain in the neck and the back. And then if the talking gets louder for your body, it's more and more intense. And your body starts screaming. And then all of a sudden, if you're not listening to any of that, it'll just shut down. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:42) Listen to the warning signs early on. It would be great to wind up with positive ideals because we've talked about some big things, and it'll be great to leave the listener on a high note to say, okay, how can things look amazing? And also the call to action of What exactly do you do with organisations? Do you have a conversation once? Do you guide people through something ongoing? What does this look like in setting up a better alternative? Jimmy Fay (58:13) I always like to leave on things like this. I've talked about some intense stuff, some heavy things, but ultimately my work is very optimistic to everything. I don't think it's ever really too late to do something positive for yourself. Even if you've taken it to the edge, even right to the edge, there's still, for most people, the capability of living a better life. Even if they've taken it to the point where their life can't continue, you know, even what they have left can be a better version of who they are, you know. So it's never too late to do something. It's always comfortable and just start small. Just start with little steps, and you'll be surprised how quickly those things come and snowball. And then all of a sudden, you start, instead of it being another job to do, it becomes something that you really want to do and something that becomes a non-negotiable. And I think workers are into life in so many ways. We've talked a lot about business and corporations, but family time, know, friend time, self care, just, just being alone by yourself, and just being comfortable with that will expand when you start looking after yourself deliberately. So there is so much to be gained from such a little input. It doesn't take a lot. It takes a little to get an absolute ginormous outcome. My positive information or my positive output is like, everyone, if you can just start with two minutes, get outside, take deep breaths, be grateful for what you've got. And you just start doing that and watch your life change in a matter of weeks. So the other portion of what you said is the businesses. So I am, I create tailor-made packages. There is no one-size-fits-all as we've talked about a lot, so I don't work one size fits all, and I don't work with many businesses at the same time. Only work with a few. Now, that can look like something where I come in and do an hour conversation like we've done today, and just kind of help people understand the nervous system and what it does. And maybe a few little tips they can look after themselves. I can do a three-hour workshop where we actually get into some proper movement practices and some breathwork sort of stuff, you can see breathwork stuff, mindset, you know, awareness stuff as well. The more time we have in the depot, we can go with all of these practices, but it just depends on where the individuals and the teams are to begin with. So I always start with a 30-minute consultation. It's not an obligation to do anything, but just so I can understand how big the business is, what they're hoping to do, where they're at, what they're struggling with, and do almost like a bit of a diagnosis-style session, just so I can understand. And then from there, I can totally make a package which can last anywhere from literally one hour to one year, working with individuals, teams, groups, and everything in between. So it's quite good that we deliberately keep it that way, so the businesses get what they need. And it can be a matter of like a few thousand dollars through to a few hundred thousand dollars, depending on the scope of the works as well. So, very small businesses can get involved, and very, very large businesses can benefit from it as well. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:27) Very small businesses as well as large organisations. That sounds great. And I'm hoping that if any speakers are listening to this, I hope they would reach out to you as well, because the breathing is great for projecting the voice, and people need to relax and have the right mindset to present. Everybody's going to have an individual personal brand, along with, of course, when people are leading teams of any sort. So people don't have to be leading the big, big brands, people don't have to be leading the giant organisations, although those are welcome. So any businesses or organisations can get this sort of help. Jimmy Fay (1:02:09) Definitely, like I said, it all starts with the individual as well. All of the things that I teach it all starts off with happily, that I'm seen as a person, and then watch that ripple out, instead of I don't start on the end and work inward. You're on an individual to benefit from the work that I do, right the way through to a multinational corporation. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:30) start working on the self and then leading others. Dr Jimmy, thank you for explaining all of this. Jimmy Fay (1:02:38) Thank you having me. been great. I can't believe that time has just passed. Thank you, I really appreciate it. I know I just dropped in out of nowhere, yeah, it's been great. I look forward love doing medicines. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:52) Yeah, awesome. Anytime.

The Motivate Collective Podcast — Show Notes Episode: Do Hard Things — Movement, Pain, Light & the Habits That Keep You Alive Guest: Gary Miller — Olympic Ski Coach & HumanCharger Distributor Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Episode Summary Gary Miller has spent a lifetime doing hard things — coaching elite ski racers at the World Cup and Olympic level, surviving seven surgeries, and rebuilding his own health from the ground up. In this wide-ranging conversation, Gary and Melanie cover the habits that separate people who thrive from those who deteriorate: consistent movement, real food, resisting the pull of pain medication, and understanding your body's biological clock. Gary also introduces the HumanCharger — a transcranial light therapy device developed in Finland that resets your circadian rhythm in just 12 minutes — and explains why it's become his go-to tool for jet lag, mental sharpness, seasonal energy dips, and athletic performance. Guest Bio Gary Miller is a former elite ski racer turned world-class coach, having worked with the U.S. Ski Team at World Cup and Olympic level. He has coached some of the sport's greatest athletes, including Mikaela Shiffrin, and brings decades of experience in human performance, physical conditioning, and the science of recovery. Now based in Europe, Gary is a passionate advocate for holistic health and is an authorised distributor of the HumanCharger — a clinically-backed light therapy device developed by scientists in Finland. His forthcoming book explores pain, human behaviour, and why so many people have lost the ability to tolerate discomfort. Key Topics Covered The do hard things philosophy Gary's core message to athletes and everyday people alike: the gap between average and exceptional is not talent — it's the consistent willingness to do small, uncomfortable things every day. Make your bed. Hydrate first. Walk before breakfast. Do these things and you're already ahead of most people on the planet. His grandfather: a blueprint for longevity Gary's grandfather was told he'd be in a wheelchair by 55 after contracting polio at 12. He lived to 100. He rode a stationary bike daily, took cold showers, ate simply, never retired, and found purpose through his art. His son — Gary's father — retired at 55, stopped moving, and was gone by 70. The contrast is striking and personal. Body weight training at any age Gary hasn't lifted weights in years. Instead: 300 squats, 300 lunges, standing core work, and farmer walks through hilly trails with sandbags — all done outdoors. He explains why after 50, high reps of body weight exercises outperform heavy weights for joint health, strength, and longevity. Movement as medicine Woken up sore after a workout? Gary's answer is never the pill bottle — it's a walk on an inclined trail. He explains why consistent movement builds the strength to avoid injury in the first place, and why ibuprofen should be a last resort, not a reflex. The opioid crisis and our relationship with pain A Netflix documentary on Purdue Pharma and OxyContin sparked Gary's book-in-progress. A friend in Portugal confessed he had been a victim of Oxycontin addiction — going from pain relief to near-total cognitive impairment before getting help. Gary argues that modern society has lost the capacity to sit with discomfort, and that movement, food, and mindset are the real answers. Real food, simple meals, and the European difference After moving to Europe, Gary and his wife noticed they could sustain themselves on two quality meals a day — because the food was actually nutritious. Fresh produce, real bread without added sugar, local meat from the butcher. He walks through his go-to pasta sauce and a whole chicken Dutch oven recipe that feeds them for days. In contrast: a small bag of groceries in Maine recently cost his sister $110 USD. The HumanCharger — what it is and how it works Developed in Finland by a scientist and an engineer from Nokia, the HumanCharger is a small transcranial light therapy device worn like earphones. It delivers 10,000 lux of full-spectrum, UV-free light through the ear canal — where the eardrum is translucent and the surrounding bone is thin — directly stimulating the light-sensitive proteins that regulate the hypothalamus, cortisol, and the body's sleep-wake cycle. Twelve minutes. No drugs. No crash. Jet lag — why it matters more than you think Gary describes flying Mikaela Shiffrin's team into Finland the night before a race due to a delayed departure — and watching her turn in one of her worst-ever results. He estimates it cost her six figures in prize money. Hundreds of millions of dollars are lost annually to jet lag-related lost productivity. With the HumanCharger protocol — used every two hours on the day of arrival — Gary says he has not found a single person for whom it didn't work. Circadian rhythm, seasonal depression, and shift workers The same mechanism that causes jet lag affects anyone working nights, moving through daylight savings, or living through dark winters. Gary's wife reset years of struggling with mornings within one week of consistent use. A night trader in Boston was given the device to help reset between night shifts and weekend normal hours. The science is the same: light is the only thing that can reset the body's biological clock. Athletes and the 1% edge In sports where the margin between first and last place is 0.01 seconds, anything holistic and legal that improves reaction time, focus, and recovery is a genuine competitive advantage. A Finnish university study with pro hockey teams found measurable improvements in psychomotor speed — reaction time — with regular HumanCharger use. Gary now recommends it to national team athletes, particularly for long-haul travel to race venues. Timestamps TimeTopic00:00Opening — dressing for climate transitions coaching the U.S. ski team in Argentina01:32Snowbirds, cold weather, and Gary's 100-year-old grandfather03:24Retirement, blue zones, and the importance of purpose04:00Polio at 12, no painkillers, and a life lived in defiance of prognosis06:33Gary's father — the contrast between his grandfather and a life without purpose07:18Finding movement that works for you — Gary's own late start in sport08:41The uncoordinated, klutzy kid who went on to win almost everything10:30A mentor, a summer training plan, and becoming a different athlete12:04Exercise as medicine — why Gary works out instead of reaching for ibuprofen13:00Body weight training, sandbags, outdoor stations, and 300 squats15:43Uphill lunges, core every day, and why incline protects the knees18:00Incline push-ups against the wall — high reps over heavy weight after 5020:45Walking off soreness — movement beats the pill bottle21:48Programming your mind to do hard things23:10The Netflix Purdue Pharma documentary that sparked a book24:22A friend's OxyContin addiction — "the best day is the first day"26:06How opioids affect the brain and why pain pills become death traps27:20Food and joint pain — the link between sugar, processed food, and inflammation31:40500-pill bottles in US gas stations vs. a pack of 10 in a European pharmacy33:20Why Europeans are always moving — hiking in their 80s and 90s35:02Real bread, fresh produce, and why Gary started baking his own loaves37:00Converting AUD to USD — and what a good loaf of bread actually costs40:00Melanie's lentil dinner and the simplicity of real food42:06COVID, empty produce aisles, and full canned food aisles43:45Gary's two-day pasta sauce and the whole chicken Dutch oven method46:00Laziness, busy families, and doing hard things anyway49:44Introducing the HumanCharger — and a pivot to light therapy51:52The 1% athlete mindset — doing the small things that compound54:15Jet lag, the circadian rhythm, and coaching the US ski team55:30Meeting the founder of Red Bull — and what they used for jet lag instead57:30How the HumanCharger was developed in Finland and why the ear canal59:5210,000 lux, 12 minutes, and what it actually looks like01:01:51How to use it — around the neck, click once, 12 minutes, done01:02:30Gary's wife's transformation from non-morning person to consistent early riser01:04:3321st century software on a thousand-year-old operating system01:05:52The jet lag protocol — every two hours on arrival day for two days01:06:40Using it instead of an afternoon espresso — no caffeine crash01:08:20Finnish hockey study — psychomotor speed and reaction time improvements01:09:230.01 seconds — why the 1% edge matters in elite sport01:12:14Daylight saving, international calls, and the myth of the non-morning person01:13:20Social jet lag and night shift workers — resetting the rhythm on weekends01:15:10Melanie building her own website with Claude Code — and the case for an app01:16:50Price, battery life, USBC charging, and how long the device lasts01:17:48Why the music version was discontinued — Bluetooth licensing costs01:19:08Meta Ray-Ban glasses — Gary's other favourite piece of tech01:22:09The one thing nobody has said didn't work for jet lag01:23:10Holistic technology — how the HumanCharger fits into a whole-health approach01:24:22Iga Świątek, tainted melatonin, and the doping control risk of supplements01:25:30Mikaela Shiffrin, Levi Finland, and the race that cost six figures01:27:20Hundreds of millions lost annually to jet lag-related lost productivity01:29:22The $500–600M sad lamp market — and why HumanCharger is the modern answer01:31:32Gary's final message — giving back, living well, and choosing products that matter Guest Mentions & Resources HumanCharger — transcranial light therapy device; available at humancharger.com — $179 USD Jet lag protocol PDF — provided by Gary; available on The Motivate Collective website Mikaela Shiffrin — most decorated ski racer in history; coached by Gary at the US Women's Tech Team Dietrich Mateschitz — founder of Red Bull; personal friend of Gary's during his coaching years in Europe Iga Świątek — world number one tennis player; referenced in context of tainted melatonin and anti-doping Oxycontin / Purdue Pharma — Netflix documentary that inspired Gary's forthcoming book on pain James Clear, Atomic Habits — referenced in context of environment design and habit formation Meta Ray-Ban Glasses — Gary's recommended wearable for audio, video, and coaching Base 44 — app development platform referenced in conversation Quotable Moments "Your goal should be to be a one percenter. Do the things that most people will never do in their lives. You've already won." — Gary Miller "We are running 21st century software on a thousand-year-old operating system. Our bodies haven't evolved enough to overcome jet travel." — Gary Miller "My grandfather was told he'd be in a wheelchair at 55 and dead soon after. He lived to 100. He just went — no, I'm not doing that." — Gary Miller "When you wake up sore, don't reach for the pills. Go out and move. The soreness will go away." — Gary Miller "Light is the only thing that can reset your circadian rhythm." — Gary Miller "It's not about money. This is about somebody's wellbeing. You have to have something good that can really have an impact." — Gary Miller "We need to do the things that feel impossible. Everyone had something that felt like the limit at some point." — Melanie Suzanne Wilson Key Takeaways Consistent daily movement — even simple body weight work for 20 minutes — is more powerful medicine than most pills on the market. After 50, high-rep body weight training protects your joints and builds genuine strength. Real food, cooked simply, is affordable and transformative — your body can tell the difference. The modern world has engineered our disconnection from our own biology. The answer is not more drugs or more screens. Jet lag is not trivial — it costs athletes podiums, executives board room performance, and costs the global economy hundreds of millions annually. Light is the only thing that resets the circadian rhythm. The HumanCharger delivers that in 12 minutes with no side effects. Becoming a one percenter isn't about talent. It's about making your bed, hydrating, walking before breakfast, and doing those things every day when most people won't. About the HumanCharger The HumanCharger is a transcranial light therapy device developed in Finland. It delivers 10,000 lux of full-spectrum, UV-free light through the ear canal in 12 minutes, stimulating the biological pathways that regulate energy, mood, sleep, and circadian rhythm. Used by elite athletes, shift workers, frequent travellers, and anyone navigating seasonal energy changes. 💡 Price: $179 USD 🔋 Battery life: Up to one month with daily use; USB-C charging 📄 Jet lag protocol: Available on The Motivate Collective website Connect with Gary Miller [Insert Gary's website, HumanCharger link, and contact details here] Connect with The Motivate Collective 🎙️ Listen and subscribe: www.motivatecollective.com 🌿 Join the community for conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com #TheMotivateCollective #HumanCharger #WellnessPodcast #ConsciousLiving #CircadianRhythm #LightTherapy #JetLag #DoHardThings #MovementIsMedicine #ElitePerformance #PersonalDevelopment #GrowthMindset #HolisticHealth #ConsciousLeadership #LongevityHabits     Transcript   It's funny because when you're a young kid like I was at 15, you don't really, I don't think you notice it maybe as much. But when I really noticed it was when I went back years later and I was coaching the U.S. ski team and my athletes, it was the only time they ever held a downhill, World Cup downhill race in South America. It was in Las Linas in Argentina. And, you know, and all the guys, you know, they're coming from summer and, you know, within 12 hours, they're in winter. And of course, they don't dress appropriately. Right. So what happens is everyone gets sick right away. Instantly. Yeah, it's like, you know, they're all freezing and they and nobody really thought about it. You know, it's just. But when you're at that level, you have to be really cognizant of Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:55.734) Instantly. Gary Miller (01:09.386) you know, weather and your environment and what you're stepping into. And yeah, it's always a challenge, you know, and over time you learn these things and it gets better. But it's not easy. It's not easy. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:23.054) It's not. I'm guessing if you get to the other countries in the transitional months, it might be a little bit easier. Gary Miller (01:32.256) Yes. Yes, for sure. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:34.69) And of course, and some people want the other seasons. I have some Italian relatives who don't complain when they are suddenly just getting summer all year when they travel. Gary Miller (01:47.723) Yeah, mean, you know, we growing up in the Midwest of the U.S., right? I mean, it's our winners were pretty severe winners. They were cold and snowy. And, you know, we were in the Great Lakes region of the U.S. And that's just, you know, from you got to figure from November through February, March, it's it's winter and it's cold. And and most I wouldn't say most, but a lot of people that are older, they all go to Florida. We call them the snowbirds. And they go down there because they don't want to deal with the cold and the snowy weather. My grandfather was a bit of an anomaly. He was one of these guys. He was a really well-known artist, watercolor artist. He never minded it. And even into his, he lived to be a hundred, believe it or not. But he felt that living in that environment was healthier. And this man was way ahead of his time. I mean, he was taking cold showers or he would swim in the lake when it was cold. And, you know, he just embraced that. And he said, first of all, I don't believe in retirement because I think it's unhealthy. And I don't need to go down to a warm climate. And he was a little bit of a maverick that way, I guess, is what you could say. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:24.19) Even the idea of not retiring, whatever retirement really means, that's now associated with the blue zones, any thoughts about longevity, and people are seeing that. But if you look at some people who retired early in the traditional definition of that, I can understand that so much because my grandparents were like that. They retired in their 50s, but they did so much afterwards. And you kind of need that because you need to keep the brain alive and you need to stay connected with the world. Gary Miller (04:00.458) My grandfather was really unique in that sense. Okay, here's a guy that had polio when he was 12. And he went to a clinic in Cleveland, Ohio for about nine months. And this was back in the early 1900s, right? So the only methods they had to fix his polio, which it couldn't really fix, right? And they didn't have vaccines back then, was they put them on the rack. then they try to stretch it and they would, and all this, there was a lot of painful stuff that was going on and they couldn't use morphine and things like that on kids. So they did surgery without really any. sort of painkillers. I mean, was weird. And he really endured some hard times, but it really drove him. And he used very creative methods. They told him that, you know, you're going to be in a wheelchair at 55 and dead soon thereafter. And he just went, no, I'm not going to do that. And he got to a point where he could walk. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:46.413) Nothing. Gary Miller (05:15.66) fairly well, always walked with a limp because one leg was pretty bad. he and my grandmother traveled all over the world. He had a stationary bike at home. He rode that stationary bike every single day, well, I should say five, six days a week for an hour every morning. He must have gone around the world two or three times, right? And we would always have a big celebration when he did. But he just always felt that that exercise was was paramount. And like I said, you know, he was way out of his time. Cold showers. He ate very healthy foods. He didn't he didn't overindulge. He'd like to have a glass of beer or a glass of wine at night. But that was about it. And he lived to be 100 years old. And in contrast, my father, OK, his son, He retired when he was 55, I believe. Okay. And he got prostate cancer when he was 60. And, you know, I think it was like 10 years later, he was gone. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:32.866) That's terrible. Gary Miller (06:33.085) And well, and he didn't, but he didn't live like his father. know, he, when he quit work, when he sold the business and quit work, he just would fly his airplane a little bit and he'd ski a little bit and he, but he just never had purpose. He never had purpose. And I think there was some of that. He also, you know, he drank more than he maybe should have and he. didn't eat that healthy. And I remember him telling me, I don't need to exercise. I did that when I was in college and as an athlete. And that was kind of it. And he just sort of withered away. And yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:18.818) That's, think the exercise topic is an interesting one and it's great hearing it from you because you deal with exercise all the time. I had a limiting belief like that, but when I was young, I didn't feel coordinated. When I was young, I wasn't the typical sporty type, but it was so much later on that although yoga isn't a sport, I was able to follow something that was physical in some way. And I really hope that everybody can just find something that works for them. Do you think that some people are more comfortable with some activities more than others? Gary Miller (07:58.4) Yeah, I think so. I'll tell you a funny story. OK, so I come from a ski family, right? My parents were competitive and I have two sisters. when I was, I want to say probably I would have been about six or seven years old. OK, my parents wanted to take us all up skiing for the weekend. We drive up to Michigan and go skiing and I didn't want to go. And my sisters, they wanted to go, so they went, you know? But my parents got tired of leaving me at home with a babysitter. Okay? So my mother was very clever. She hired the biggest, meanest babysitter that she could find. And after two weekends of enduring that old bat, I was like, okay, I'm going skiing. I was, you know, but I was the consummate, uncoordinated, klutzy kid. I mean, yeah, I couldn't, my father put me in Little League baseball. I couldn't catch a ball to save my life. I couldn't bat. I couldn't throw. I couldn't throw a football or kick a soccer ball. I mean, I was the definition of no athletic ability at all. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:04.514) Really? Gary Miller (09:26.483) And I think, you know, it sort of morphed into this, well, was, as I was started to get involved in ski racing when I was, would have been about 10, I guess. In 10, 11, 12, I sort of, it was a social thing because it was around a lot of my friends. But I started to get a little annoyed with the fact that they were always coming home with trophies and medals and I was coming home with zero. So this sort of thing just, you know, eventually I got better and I had a mentor from the U.S. Ski Team, a gal who just saw me at a camp and went, this kid's really struggling, I need to help him out. And she turned the tide for me, you know, she told me what I would need to do if I wanted to be at the podium level versus, you know, with everybody else. And she gave me a physical fitness program for the summer and fall months. I think I was really kind of thrilled that somebody took an interest in me and said, hey, you can do great. Just you need to have a little bit of a roadmap. My father was my coach, but he didn't really push us to do any physical activity per se. And it made a difference. After a year, I was a completely different animal. I I was strong and my coordination sort of, you know, once my body caught up with itself, but by the time I was probably in my 16, 17 years old, I was winning almost everything. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:11.712) everything. Gary Miller (11:12.639) Yeah. Yeah. Now that was in the sport of ski racing. You know, if I wanted to go out and play golf or play tennis, it wasn't that great. Right. But so I still had some of that. But, you know, over time, you know, some people are really blessed with with, you know, a natural coordination. And and but but now over this long span of my life. OK. Boy, exercise to me is the ticket. mean, wouldn't, you know, so many people when they have an aching pain, aches or pains, they take medication. Okay, I go out and work out and it's like the best medication you could ever have. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:04.554) It really does heal and fix things. Gary Miller (12:07.786) Absolutely. That movement of any type. And I like to do it early in the morning because, you know, after sleeping at night, you get a little stiff and that's just the way it is. And having a body weight at my age, I don't need to go in the gym anymore. I use body weight exercises and I'm outside in nature. I have a little music going and it's, boy, it takes care of all that. And I've had I've had, I don't know, seven surgeries or something, you I've had discs taken out of my back, I've had four knee surgeries, you know, it's been all this sort of stuff. And I got friends that walk around like they're half dead, and I feel great. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:52.908) movement, it makes a giant difference. It's great that you are seeing that at any age and after all these injuries and things. The simple habits make a difference. I can relate to that so much. Someone told me recently that I'm aging backwards. Okay, I'll go with that. And there are things people can do anywhere because I looked at Pilates after yoga and one thing they both do is doing a simple plank. I was not the type to do something like that, but you could use any floor at home, anything. And so people don't have to be an expert in something. Since you've done so much with movement for the audience to agree that people don't have to do something complicated to get movement. Gary Miller (13:44.585) No, and you don't need to go out and buy a gym membership. You don't need to go out and buy a bunch of equipment. literally have, I've got like a, it's not really a yoga mat because it's a little thicker, you know, it's a little softer. And I've got two sandbags that are probably, I think they're like maybe six kilos or something like that. So what is that? 15 pounds maybe or somewhere around that. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:17.154) I normally use Kilos, so we can try to help the Americans convert text if they need it when listening or they can Google it. Gary Miller (14:21.414) Yeah. They can Google it, So anyway, I can use it for like, I'll use it for, you know, some types of squats and I'll use it for curls and things like that. Or I'll go out and I'll do a farmer walk on a hilly trail and I'll just carry him with me. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:46.574) so the farmer walk is that simply carrying things. Gary Miller (14:52.126) Just carrying them, just put them in your hands and carry them. you know, it's one until you get used to it, you know, it's it's a challenge, but it's it's really it's good. And and. You know, I do body weight because at my age I don't my my joints aren't as elastic as they were when I was younger. And so I don't put that strain on them, but it's that it's a constant movement. So if I go out and. typical routine is I'll spend probably 15 minutes getting up onto a trail so I'm warmed up and I'm ready to go and then I'll have little stations that I dream up on my own and one will be the first one is always squats, regular squats and I'll do 100 of Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:43.278) Literally. Gary Miller (15:43.883) 100 squats, yeah. Now, when I started this a couple of years ago, I started out with maybe 30 or 40, and I could probably, if I, I'm gonna do it one of these days, I could probably do 200 of them. Okay, and then I've got, but I've got three different variations of squats, so I'll do a total of 300 squats. And then I've got core. I do standing core in between those squat sets. And then I also do lunges. I'll do normally if I go out, if it's lunch day, I'll go out and I'll do 300 lunges. And I'll do them uphill with a slight grade so you don't put any stress on your knee. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:34.542) Okay, that's a hint for everybody. So uphill, is there a way to do that? If someone has a normal floor, is there a way to do these things that will be more gentle on the knees? Gary Miller (16:46.622) Yeah, like I said, with the incline for me, it's because I don't have any cartilage left on my right knee. So for me, I try not to do something that impacts it too much. with the incline, just a little bit, you've got a little bit of your weight behind you. But it's, body weight exercises are fantastic. I was with a friend yesterday, we went for for a long hike. He's a pilot for FedEx and he's, you know, he's younger than I am, quite a bit younger than I am. And he's got all these aches and pains and he's, but he's now 57 and he's going to the gym and he's lifting weights, but he's always having problems. And I said, dude, you got, you know, when you hit 50, That's kind of the magic number. You don't need to lift a lot of weights and just start doing high reps of body weight exercises. And you can't believe how strong you can get. He says, yeah, because I'm having trouble with push ups. And I said, here's the key with push ups. I had to give up on them a long time ago. just I had a disease when I was a kid, so my back didn't grow straight. So it's a little harder for me to do push ups. But I said, I do incline push ups. You can do them against the wall. But instead of doing 10 or 15, do 50, 50 or 60. You'll get strong as an ox. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:23.214) One client, what do you do just to lean against the wall? Gary Miller (18:26.461) lean against the wall or slightly down just a little bit and you're just, and you do high reps and every couple of weeks add another 10. You'd be surprised. It's crazy. if you have, so I've got squat days, I've got lunge days and with some standing core in between there, because your core is your, you can exercise your core every day. It's just, and people don't realize that you can do that. And then there will be days when it's maybe really miserable outside. I I don't mind going out in any kind of weather. If it's misting a little bit or it's cold, I don't care. It's good to be outside. But I'll do an inside day and I'll do an hour of core. And my God, I've got probably half a dozen exercises. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:14.99) What do you do for the core? Gary Miller (19:24.335) standing core is what I usually start with because it's a little bit easier when you get out of bed and you're stiff a little bit. So that's what I start with. And then I do, you know, I do some arm curls and I do some some over behind the neck press, you know, with the sandbags and and then I'll get on the floor and I'll do another seven or eight variations of floor core. And and The cool thing about doing core like this with movement, this kind of movement, is you're actively stretching your muscles. I don't need to stretch as much after I do a session like that. That's crazy. mean, it's one of the best. balms you can put on your body is doing these movement exercises and and even if you wake up and you're a little bit sore, I mean in the beginning, yeah, you get a little bit sore or if I increase my my intensity a little bit or the or the reps. Yeah, I'll get a little sore go out and move. Soreness will go away. Take don't use the pills. I mean it takes a lot for me to reach for the the Ibuprofen. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:45.4) Are you saying that a walk will ease the aches that people might have a day after a workout? Gary Miller (20:51.291) Absolutely, absolutely. Best thing you could do, go out and move. Don't exercise. Just go out on a trail that maybe has a little bit of elevation and just walk. It's phenomenal what it'll do. And it's hard because the common reaction for people is when they wake up in the morning and they have an ache, they'll put some ibuprofen in their bodies and they don't need to do that. Go for a walk. Besides, you get the sun, get the, you know, you get the, it's just healthier. Just healthy. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:24.078) and they might. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:31.65) it is. I'm guessing some people would be using the pills to replace those other things as well. So they might not even be adding the pills onto the good things. They might be just only popping a pill and then sitting on a couch instead of getting out there into the world. Do you think so? Gary Miller (21:48.414) Right. Yeah. And listen, I don't want to be preaching the fact that I'm something special, that I've been doing this for so many years, that it's easy. Nothing's easy. But you have to kind of program your mind to do hard things. Because as time goes on, your body just isn't kind to itself. It starts to... deteriorate, that's life. But you can overcome that. It was interesting because when my wife and I moved to Europe a couple years ago, we ended up in Portugal because it was the easiest place to get residency right away. And we were in the Algarve where it's nice and warm and it was on the seaside. it was an interesting experience. And I really enjoyed some of the time down there because getting out in the morning and doing stuff and then going for a swim in the ocean where it's cold was great. And that's that's another topic all in itself. But, you know, these types of things just. I think the real change for me was one night I sat down and watched Netflix and there was a documentary on that, or actually it was a movie on the Purdue Pharma, you know, that had the Oxycontin, the heavy duty, people were taking this narcotic to eliminate pain, but they became so addicted to it. And I thought, why? You know, I came from a sport that probably is one of the more brutal sports on the planet. mean, you know, when you crash skiing, it's not always that pleasant, right? So we were out skiing and competing in inclement conditions where it's really cold or it's super icy. And, you know, it's not an easy sport. mean, it's tough. I'm thinking, why are these people, why are they popping a pill and sitting on the couch and Gary Miller (24:03.869) But then they become addicted. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:06.69) And this is so deep because this is bigger than the particular pill they are turning to. It seems like people don't know how to accept pain and discomfort. Gary Miller (24:22.876) They don't, so I'm writing a book about it. Yeah, yeah. And I said, you know what? I gotta write a book because this makes no sense to me. So I've done a lot of research. I've got it now, I'm about halfway through most of the major edits and I'm doing, I've gotta get it to a copywriter. I'm taking those steps. It will be published this year. But I felt it was really important and I dig into, you know, Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:25.774) What the? Gary Miller (24:52.984) what our ancestors, going back to the Viking days, what they did for pain and try to educate people on the topic of pain, because I don't think people really understand it. And it wasn't very long after watching that film on Netflix that there was a friend of ours in another town in Portugal. had coffee with him one day and I was explaining that I saw this thing and he goes, oh my God. He said, I'm a victim of that. He said, I got hooked on Oxycontin. And he said, let me tell you something. The best day on Oxycontin is the first day. After that, it goes downhill. He said, I got to the point where I was almost stupid. He said, couldn't drive my car. I couldn't remember things. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:44.162) to. Gary Miller (25:49.08) And he said, I was a mess and I had to get some rehab to get out of it. He was one of the lucky ones. If he would have continued on that, he would have ended up dead like so many Americans have on taking that drug. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:06.04) dead. So does it mess with the brain and also the body? Do you know what it's doing to people? Gary Miller (26:14.864) Yeah, it's just a really, really powerful narcotic that just eliminates pain, but it's so highly addictive. mean, it's like a... It was easier than people getting hooked on heroin or crack or anything like that. I mean, it's awful. I mean, it's really bad. mean, they would find... you know, a husband and a wife sitting in a car dead because they had taken, they eventually just gone. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:54.03) That's so sad. And it's for the pain. I'm wondering how these people even got into so much pain because chances are that some of these aches are from not doing the movement to begin with. I can tell you that I was cutting back on my exercises when I couldn't get to a gym for a couple of weeks. And I know you were saying that we can do things at home. Gary Miller (26:54.108) Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:20.566) I put off getting the right mat, I think if there's one thing you need to get, everybody needs a decent mat. But I can feel it so much. I can feel just a line across my back from the aches of not doing the movements I was doing a couple of weeks ago. And if some people are going months or years without doing these movements that we all need, then it would be wrecking the... Gary Miller (27:45.221) If you know, if you take the average. I'll take the average guy, right? He maybe he works. At a place where he has to lift some heavy things periodically, maybe it's a warehouse or a building supply place or something like that, and he tweaks his back. OK. First thing you do when he gets home, he reaches for the pill bottle and and. And of course, it's a compounding thing, right? If you exercise consistently, you become strong enough to be able to do those simple things and not get hurt. Now, that's not always the case because I can go and lift something. Although I've learned over time when you lift, you lift with your legs, you don't lift with your arms and, you know, just hinge at the waist. But If you're if you're physically strong enough and so many people aren't and it's really it's it's really a problem in the US because, you know, so many people are overweight. They have let themselves go. And and when you do that, your whole body becomes out of balance. You know, if you've got a big stomach in front of you, you're you're out of balance and it puts more strain on your back. But by keeping yourself active and healthy, You you can overcome a lot of stuff. And you know, if something, if I really get, if I really tweak something, I won't hesitate to take an ibuprofen, but I'll only take it once. And that's it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:29.522) I'll you, I'll tell you, there's so much there and I wanted to, I wanted to mention the importance of food because of course if someone eats all the wrong things all day then they will, it would be too difficult to run that off, of course that's a part of it, but you mentioned the pain relief again and I was so keen to, I don't know if I've given this anecdote in a previous recording but when I had that tivule plateau fracture years ago, 2017, I was in the hospital bed and I didn't understand how things work and the staff told me, so there was a button for some sort of pain relief, I don't even know what was going through my system, but the staff just said whenever I am feeling pain press that button, I kept pressing it until I vomited because I was just doing what I was told. Then I just didn't take that, the tremadol gave me hives, they would appear in a patch on my arm and then vanish and then a patch on another spot. That was so weird to have hives just popping up and vanishing and popping up again. And so I just skipped those things and just coped. We can just cope without those things. But one thing I assume other people are doing that I did there is I just mindlessly did what I was told until people realized, okay. this is having this effect. And by that point, we are then recovering from all those side effects. Gary Miller (31:02.631) Oh, for sure. Yeah, exactly. mean, it's and you know, there are are societal differences, too. And I don't know enough about Australia and you know, where you guys are. It's like one of the places that I want to go and I have never been yet. I'll get there. But it's you know, it's it's in the US. You can walk into. You know, a gas station, a convenience store. and you can buy a bottle of 500 pills. Okay? mean, that's normal. Anywhere. Yeah, it's crazy. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:40.75) anywhere. 500. What is anyone doing with 500 pills? Gary Miller (31:46.568) They buy a big bottle, you know, that it's over excessive and it's marketing and it's everything else, right? And in Europe, it's completely different. If you want something for pain relief, it's usually ibuprofen. And you can buy it, but you can't buy it in a gas station. You can't buy it in a convenience store. You can't buy it in a grocery store. You can only buy it in an opotech, right? pharmacy. the only place you can buy it and it might be normally a package will you can get 10 pills in a box or you can get maybe 20 but you don't get more than that which is Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:31.982) We have that, sorry for diving in, we have that sort of quantity, but it is often available at the supermarkets nearly anywhere. Gary Miller (32:40.923) Yeah, no, and over here in Europe, can't do that. And of course, but the society here, everyone's out walking or biking or running or doing something. They're always active. And it doesn't matter. We saw a woman this winter that had to be in her late 80s. She had a walker with wheels and she was pushing it along the trail with some slushy snow below her. And I'm like, all right, that's fantastic. You know, they just they don't mind. You go up hiking here and you see you see people that are there in their 80s and 90s that are out there when they've got their sticks with them and and they're always they're always moving. So it's yeah, it's a you know, it's a societal thing. And, you know, going back to what you were saying with with food, the diet is so important. If you're eating. more sugary type foods and processed foods, you will have more joint pain. I mean, they've proven that. That's a, you try to eat really healthy. We tried to do intermittent fasting back in the States. We couldn't do it. You don't have high enough quality food unless you went to Whole Foods every week to get your groceries. And course, you know, the again, it's a societal thing. People buy groceries for a week. Well, you can do that because most of that stuff is preservatives in it. It'll last a week. Over here, everyone goes to the grocery store almost every day or every two days to buy fresh products or fresh fresh produce anyway. And so we noticed when we got to Portugal, we could exist on two two meals a day. We would eat at noon, and we would eat at six, seven o'clock at night. That was it. because the quality of food, and we shopped every other day or every day if we had to, and we'd go to the farmer's market or wherever, and you went to the butcher to get your meat and... Gary Miller (35:02.491) It's crazy. The simple staple of life, bread, for example, in America, loaded with sugar. Okay, to get bread like we get here, you know, was just, it was so expensive in the States. So I can buy a really nice loaf of fresh sourdough bread, okay? And I can pay one, one euro 99. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:31.022) Neeloo! Gary Miller (35:32.037) Yeah. And when we were in Michigan in the U.S., that same loaf of bread was ten dollars U.S. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:40.45) think it's like that here a lot and it's interesting you bring that up. If I was going to go to a sourdough bakery somewhere that makes the properly, I would say it would become 10 to 12, maybe 8 to 12 Australian. So what's the American dollar? I'm going to guess off the top of my head 1.5 times that just wild guess. Maybe not. Gary Miller (36:09.199) Yeah, probably. I can actually look it up, but I know what you're saying. I wonder if I have Australian. OK, so. It's a U.D. right. I think that's what they go by. Gary Miller (36:30.695) would be, okay, so Australian dollar, one Australian dollar would be 0.72, not quite a US dollar. Right, 72 cents. Just a little bit lower. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:45.902) Right. So if I tell the internet, I'm just checking convert a, let's call it 12 AUD to USD. So that's, it's complicating this. Gary Miller (37:01.383) 12 would be $8.80. 860. 860. Yeah. Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:08.398) So basically for the Americans listening, a good loaf of bread over here is around what they would call $8. But if you're saying it was around the $10 mark in America, then it's pretty similar. seriously, then looking at the bread in the supermarkets, I like how as watching the guy who does the Blue Zone, Stan Butener, I think his name is, and And at some point he got the bread and just squished it up in his hand and said, if you can do that, then it's not decent bread. I get so worried, but even the cheap bread is not so cheap here now in terms of price because everything is becoming expensive. But I find that I just can't even eat that. I'll just skip it until I can get real bread. But if you are going to the places that don't have options, then that's all there is. And it's not the same. sourdough is so different Gary Miller (38:06.289) Sourdough is really different and we couldn't, in Portugal we couldn't get. kind of bread we really wanted to get, right? I mean, I'm a little spoiled because I used to spend more time in Central Europe and, you know, between Italy, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, you get France, you get phenomenal breads. So I started making our own bread. And then that was really simple. It wasn't sourdough because I didn't get into the whole sourdough starter and all that stuff. But to be able to make a fresh loaf of bread every two days was Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:30.99) You have to. Gary Miller (38:41.946) really economical and it was kind of fun actually. But it's those simple things and you consume fruits and the vegetables and eggs. are, what we buy eggs here in Germany for is, you pay in the States eight or nine dollars for a carton of eggs. I mean it's gotten so expensive, yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:08.418) Really? Gary Miller (39:09.988) Yeah, the US is really out of control right now. mean, what obviously, you know, with the whole the whole thing, the whole political thing is just an absolute disaster. And my my two of my sisters, they've been here, they visited and they couldn't believe how inexpensive the food was. My sister the other day wrote me, she said, I bought a small bag of groceries and she lives in Maine. And it was it was one hundred and ten dollars US. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:15.501) apology. Gary Miller (39:39.78) Small bag of groceries. I can go here to the Lidl and I can buy the freshest fruits. This stuff all comes up from Spain and Italy. I bought a big bag of groceries and it might have been 30 euros. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:58.05) That's better and people need to get to the basics. I will add again that I don't eat eggs but just hearing that price that really stunned me because here in Australia we are hearing that there are there are war events going on. The thing we kept hearing about was the fuel prices. So Americans will say gas, we say petrol, whatever you call it. Gary Miller (39:59.547) Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:22.324) that was becoming the big fear and people were doing the joke memes to emotionally cope, all of that. But food is an interesting one because I think that's creeping up slowly or at least even if other things are chewing into the budget for everybody. I believe people always forget how affordable food can be because it sounds like even the basics are out of control in America but I'll tell you the very simple meal for example that I had tonight because if we're talking about salad dough, I impressed myself. I impressed myself. I, I fried up the finely chopped onion and some fresh tomato and some brown lentils and tossed in some olive oil and taco seasoning. can tell you those simple ingredients. I used half of the onion. I used half of the tomato. This is barely any food. At least over here, you can get a can of lentils for a dollar. I don't know what it's like in America now. And it was, it's seriously enough food for two dinners. And it was so simple. think people don't realize how simple food is. People think they need, you know, I think the ingredients list has missed, it has messed everything up because people are looking for a particular products that might've had. Gary Miller (41:24.889) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gary Miller (41:30.48) Mm-hmm. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:47.534) nutrients, you know, something is processed and then, you know, or people are checking the grams of the protein or that stuff instead of just checking is this real food. I hope that everywhere in the world people can at least go and get the simple things like potatoes, whatever, and just at least eat something real to start. Gary Miller (42:06.467) It's member during COVID. OK. I was always blown away by. Going into the grocery store and seeing. Seeing all these aisles with. Boxed and canned foods. That were completely empty. In addition to the. Toilet paper. I'll was completely empty, right? That one still baffles me. It's like OK. Something's weird about that, during things like that, they all rush to buy toilet paper. Whatever. So, so, but anyway, if you continue on and you get to the produce area, it's completely full. And they were even throwing that stuff out. People, you know, we're going to be stuck at home. So we're just going to make boxed macaroni and cheese, or we're going to do canned jar of pasta sauce. Right. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:42.673) yes. Gary Miller (43:06.822) And that's what we'll eat that. And it's like, no, you don't need to do that. Life is food is simple. And you can you can do things that are really cool. When my kids were young, they love pasta, right? But I wasn't going to give them the spaghetti owes or whatever they they they have in the can. Right. I said, there's no way I'm going to do that. You can you can buy I really got into it big time. So I would buy Roma tomatoes. I would blanch them. Okay, peel the skin off and take the seeds out and then I would press them and I would make my sauce that way. Well, you know, I don't really need to do that anymore because here, especially being so close to Italy, you can buy a box of the crushed tomatoes that don't have the seeds and all that sort of stuff in it. And it's pretty pretty similar. And then it's just, you know, some garlic and some olive oil first, pour the tomatoes in there, and I add salt and pepper and I use a, I use a like a, like a pink Himalayan salt and maybe some Italian herbs. That's it. Then you throw the pasta in the water and you got a phenomenal healthy, and we can get two days out of a, you know, when I make a batch of pasta. We use a like a porcelain, they call it a Dutch oven, I guess, or a crock, it's like a crock, you know, and with a lid on it. And all you have to do is put in, slice up some potatoes, some carrots, onions, celery, plop a chicken in there, put some, we use just curry, we cover it in olive oil, and then we put some curry powder. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:45.331) that's... Gary Miller (45:06.469) some brown sugar, a little salt and pepper, and you've got a phenomenal meal. Okay, you've got your chicken, which is great, and you've got your vegetables. And then I go and I strip the chicken down, either my wife or I will strip the chicken down, add some bouillon to it, some of the water in a bouillon cube, and we have chicken soup for two more days. Gary Miller (45:37.347) And you're eating pure food. I have a little bit of a thing for dark chocolate, but it's the lesser of a lot of the chocolate evils. But those kinds of things, they're affordable if you do it this way, but people inherently, I think, are lazy. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:49.165) Then Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:00.598) To some extent, laziness is a part of it. And I will clarify, also, so I, I don't eat dairy eggs or meat, but I think if everybody starts with real food, it's a great start. And I was reminiscing today that I am just bursting to roast some potatoes. And again, how difficult is it to just, especially the tiny ones, you barely have to cut them, make sure it's clean enough, throw it in an oven, you don't have to do anything. But you mentioned the laziness. I wanted to comment on how people sometimes do end up with busy lives. And although there are ways with technology to make our time more efficient, things happen. People, families work, things get busy. But I've been looking in different areas. So I'm at the coast, but I'm close enough to Sydney. And when I first started exploring Sydney again, I thought, Every place has pastries. It was pastries at all the coffee places. And I was trying to figure out, okay, where is the quick healthy food? I can tell you it's the unexpected places. If I go to the nice coffee places, it's perhaps a big refined white bread with something in it, whatever. There'll be the places that are doing the burgers that are extra oily, whatever, but the supermarket will have a salad with some falafels in it. It's simple. I, a few times I went to the supermarket when they had some clearance things at the end of the day and got the simple salads then. So you look for the basics. I keep my eye out for a, an avocado sushi roll. It's a few ingredients, I know what's in it, and I can eat that on the go. I passionately believe people need to at least look for the real food, even if they are getting busy. Gary Miller (48:05.003) Absolutely. And it just takes, it takes a little bit more effort. It doesn't take a lot. It takes a little bit more effort. You know, it's like... Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:13.646) No. Gary Miller (48:18.31) I mean, it goes into a little bit off topic, but it's a little bit like, you know, you're home with the kids, right? And, and, and, you know, we would trade off cooking. Okay. I would, I would cook some nights. My wife would cook some nights. We take the kids out and do something active. And, and, and today there's too much of this. Give them this and keep them occupied. Right. Really? That's not helping anybody. so, yeah, mean, it's just keeping... I know people with two people working, it's really a challenge, right? And they come home from work and they're tired. I understand that. I've been there, done that before. But it's going back to what I said, do hard things. dig a little bit deep. Don't let that dictate your life. Still, you have to prepare good food and good meals. And then after dinner, go for a nice walk. then you'll sleep much better at night. That's kind of it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:44.042) It's, think the do hard things wisdom that's going to encourage people who don't have someone who can carry the load with them because you two are such a team and I hope that all couples can be a team and just alternate with duties, things like that. That makes a difference. And I, I feel excited to know that I won't always be just juggling everything alone, but to those people who are juggling everything because either they are alone or their other person just isn't doing the things, or maybe they are both working. This is a simple facts of life of things will be difficult. We just have to do it. And you are coming from, course, a professional background where you help people to do great sport as well and reach goals. So, We've barely even talked about the human charger yet, so we'll get to that in a second. But every topic was just golden. I forgot just how diverse this is. But absolutely. You need to just find the bravery. And it's great that you're saying that. It's one of those moments when a podcast guest tells me what I need to hear. Because I think we also need to do the things that feel impossible. Everybody had something that felt like the limit at some point. But I'll tell you in terms of doing hard things, okay, because a pivot is better late than never. I have, I don't know if anyone else uses the human charger for ears popping, but I just found that maybe it's, maybe half of it is just putting those little earphone rubber things in. For those who haven't seen it, it's just like if you get earphones to listen to music and it has the rubber things on that. I don't know if that's contributing to it or also the light, but just popping those on when my ears are going weird on a long trip, it has seriously made a difference. Gary Miller (51:52.727) I listen this this device is is probably one of the the crazier things. And and to to lead into that a little bit. Doing hard things. Is something that I talked to athletes about right. But you you have you you have you have the athlete the elite athletes that are up here and you've got the ones that that are here that that want to be up here. right? And that's always the tough one because you get kids that are in our sport of ski racing and I think it's pretty similar with with other sports too. You get these kids that are in that 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, probably that 16 to 20 more into the probably 19, 20 years old. They've been in it long enough. They want to get to the top. They want to do this. They get they plateau. because they do not understand the value of doing hard things. So what I do is I try to reframe it for them. And there's a lot of keys here, but, I won't go into all of them. That's for maybe another topic or another discussion. But, you know, I try to frame it like this. Your goal should be a one percenter. And this goes across the board for everybody. If you make it a goal, To be a one percenter, that means you're special. You're better than 99 % of all people on the planet. Just be a one percenter. Do those extra things. Do the hard things. And it's get up every day. And it's simple stuff. When you get out of bed, you make your bed. Make it the best that you can make it. Do whatever you need to do, get your clothes on, whatever, and hydrate. Drink, you know, two 20 ounce glasses of water, have a little fruit, and then get out the door and walk around the neighborhood. If it's only as simple as a 15 to 20 minute walk around the neighborhood, you've done, you have become a one percenter because you're doing what most people will never ever do in their life. You're awake. Gary Miller (54:15.001) You've got some movement. Some of those aches and pains will go away. Have a little bit of a breakfast. Then you go to work. You're ready to go. You're tuned up. so it's I'm always looking for those things to help people become a one percenter. And with that human charger, that's exactly when I saw the thing, I didn't know really anything about it. Okay, and I'm a little bit embarrassed because as an elite coach, maybe I should have paid more attention to the body's circadian rhythm. mean, God knows, we fly all over the world, right? And we suffer jet lag. So we had, I still laugh about this because, okay, I've got my downhill ski racers. back in the 80s, okay? This was a long time ago. And we're flying to Europe and we're, God, driving to your destination after you've flown across the pond, you're jet-lagged to the hilt, and yet I gotta make sure these guys get to their destination. we had a guy by the name of Dietrich Matichitz. I don't know if that name rings a bell, okay? He's the founder of Red Bull. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:43.625) Nice. Gary Miller (55:44.716) Okay, so Dietrich became a good friend. He was a great guy. He loved us and we would get cases of Red Bull. And that Red Bull was what we used to keep ourselves bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, as they would say. And, you know, it never dawned on me, right, that, wow, this is a really cool product, because I would bring cans of it home to the U.S. And my buddies would be like, you got to bring more of this back to the States. They didn't go into the US till the 90s. And I never thought to go to Dietrich and say, I know a distributor back there that would love this stuff. I buy it and import it? Never thought about it. But that's all we had. That's all we knew. You you'd suffer for three, four days, you'd get over your jet lag and then you'd be fine. But it has a dramatic impact on you physically, emotionally, mentally. And, you know, but that was a, that's a different era. And so when we found the human charger, which is this simple little headset, right, I didn't really know. much about seasonal depression. My wife knew about it because she does suffer from seasonal depression. I'm lucky, I guess. I'm kind of a ready-set-go guy when I get up in the morning. you know, we just got used to that. And I'm not much of a... Even though I like to have a can of Red Bull once in a while, I know it's an energy drink and they're not that great for you, right? There's too much sugars in them and they're... Kids are consuming way too many of them today. But I didn't know much about light and how it would impact our biological clock, right, our internal clock. So we started to look into the science of the human charger and found that it was developed in Finland by a scientist and an engineer from Nokia, the phone company. Gary Miller (58:09.38) And it was at a time when Nokia wasn't doing very well because Apple had come out with the iPhone. so these guys broke off. And because Finland is obviously way northern latitude and dark winters, they had a lot of people that were suffering from seasonal depression. And the only thing that they had at the time was a lamp. You'd stare into this lamp for an hour. they wanted to come. Yeah. And you have to be close. And you have to stare at it for an hour because Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:32.376) this call. Gary Miller (58:38.947) You can't get anything more than that. But not many people have the time to do that, or like staring at a light. You know, it's not only great for your eyes anyway. But that's the way that light goes through your optic nerve, triggers the options, the proteins that affect your hypothalamus that deliver the cortisol to wake you up in the morning. You know, and then obviously, melatonin kicks in in the evening when it gets dark. So, you know, we just, you know, that's all that people knew. And these guys broke off and they did some experiments and they found, number one, that light would penetrate a skull. And they looked at the ear canal because the ear drum is translucent and the bone structure around the ear is very thin. So they started doing therapy, what they call transcranial light therapy, and they would use, you know, a device like this that had 10,000 lux, which is the same lux as a sad lamp, and they just put them in the ears. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:52.078) And by the way, so for those who can see the video, if you switch off the light and people can see the actual ear part that goes in your ear, people will see it's seriously, it's that simple. looks like earphones. So that's significant because it's that simple. can tell you, I was at a place where I was getting support and being with people and I just sat on a couch and paused after a bit of coffee, stopped my coffee for a moment, just popped the headset on. It's what, 12 minutes? Does it stay on? 12 minutes out of the day, not that much time. You just sit there, it's so lightweight. It's so much thinner and compact than, you know, people go around with the big headphones. It's not even like that. It's so small. You just pop that in. Gary Miller (01:00:27.043) 12 minutes. Gary Miller (01:00:45.943) Yeah, so the original version was actually more like an iPod. You know, it had a little handheld device and it had the cables that went up to the earbuds. These are called earbuds. And they're just little LED lights in there that provide 10,000 lux of a full spectrum, UV free, which is really important because, yeah, people are going to say, well, I can go out and I can look at the sun and I can, yeah. Sure, you can do that and you should do that but you got to be careful of that because there's all the other things that we know about with Sun today So this is a really really really safe Quick and efficient way that when you get up in the morning You know you can you can throw this device. It's like the old JVC Bluetooth headphones, you know, you just stick around your neck and you click the button once you've got the light you pop them in Look at your clock Okay, it's 1106, so 12 minutes from there at 1118, I'm able to... it'll just automatically shut off. You just pull it out and you go, it's off now. Okay, then you... Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:01:51.534) And. You put it around your neck. I was putting that part on my head like a headband. Sorry, that looked weird the way I just did that. But I guess you can do either. But around the neck is even easier. Gary Miller (01:02:05.867) Yeah, around the neck is probably the simplest. And no, it's really clever. It's so simple to use. you know, so we, the more we kind of got into the thing, you know, my wife is like, God, I gotta try this thing because I'm not very good about getting up in the morning. You know, I always struggle to get up in the morning. so she was the first one that started using it within a week. She was like, I've never been able to get up regular in the morning. So it sort of reset. You know, she was working at a retail store that was more of an in a basement, so she didn't get a lot of natural light. So this really helped her a ton. And and then the more I dug into it, I'm thinking, you know, God, I know what I know what I felt like on a really nice sunny day at a ski race. Right. Everyone's happy. Sun's bright. You can see everything's clear and And it's really nice. But you get a day that's cloudy and it's snowing and it's gray and it's, you know, you just don't wake up with that same feeling. Right. And I'm thinking, wow, that could that could really help. Because I'm a I'm a little bit odd, I'm a ready, set, go guy, get up in the morning, go and I'm fine. But when I noticed it was, you know, when we were talking about my exercise routine, OK. that's when I noticed this thing the most because when I used it I was really sharp. My focus was better because I do some mental exercises as well. You know I've got music going, I've got you know I've got some counting things that I'm doing, I've got visual images, I do all this sort of stuff and if I don't use it I'm a little bit drifting you know I drift a bit. If I use it I'm sharp I'm just like tunnel vision. That's where I noticed it. So I thought, God, well, my athletes, this could be great. So I got it out to some of the athletes that, you know, I'm not actively coaching the athletes anymore on the national team, but I got it out to some of the national team athletes. And, you know, they know the biggest thing was jet lag. That was huge. That's a game changer that I wish we would have had years ago. Gary Miller (01:04:33.376) because with jet lag, okay, and to give you a little bit of a background, the circadian rhythm, okay, our body's biological clock, I like to say that we are, as a human being, we're running 21st century software on a thousand year old operating system, okay? Our bodies haven't evolved enough to be able to overcome jet travel. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:04:56.364) in what way? Gary Miller (01:05:02.434) across six time zones. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:05:04.364) Right, we haven't evolved to flick between time zones. Gary Miller (01:05:08.13) Right. Yeah, we can't. We have gotten better over time. I mean, over the last 100, 200 years, you can look back and go, yeah, we've really evolved as human beings, but not enough to overcome that because jet travel has only been around for 40, 50 years and you arrive and there's no way you can just arrive in feeling great. So what the human charger does is that when you arrive at a destination, so if I'm flying from the US to Europe, I arrive in the morning, I use it at eight o'clock in the morning, and then I use it every two hours after that for two days. So I use it at eight, 10, 12, two, and maybe even four p.m. And all it's doing is resetting my circadian rhythm every two hours. So I don't feel that groggy, sluggish feeling. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:05:52.419) Okay. Gary Miller (01:06:07.97) Okay, and then I'll sleep really good the first night, which is always a little iffy. And then second day, I do the same thing, eight, 10, 12, two, and four. And then you're normal, perfectly normal. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:06:21.43) And that, that answers the question that I emailed to you because I found myself using the device twice. found my ears were popping into that a few hours later. I just, felt so stressed. Maybe it's partly the seasonal change and life, anything. And I just pop this in and then it's, it just got me away from all of that. blurry, you said that you get some alertness from it. I sent that as well. even doing it twice, was wondering is this fine, but you do it every couple of hours when you need to. Gary Miller (01:06:54.146) Well, for jet lag, especially, but everyone's a little bit different, right? My wife will use it in the afternoon instead of an espresso or something like that, because with this, you don't have a caffeine crash, right? You can go get your coffee in the afternoon and you'll have a good spike for an hour so. And then all of a sudden it's like, I'm back to my normal sluggish feeling. I've got coaches that are using it. OK, that after a long day of training, everyone jumps in the van. They drive back to their to their hometown or their their base. And it might be an hour drive, hour and a half, you know, because they like to go to a lot of different ski areas around Europe. And and I said, you know, instead of stopping for a coffee, pop that thing in. This coach calls me and he goes, my God, this is weird. He said, I'll put that thing on in 15, 20 minutes later. I'm wide awake. I have no, I'm not dozing off again in the afternoon. So it, and he tried it on his first, the first time in the fall season, they went from Germany up to Norway and it was like 30 hours. And he was dying. He said, those trips are long, but he said it with the human charger was fantastic. He said, I'd use it whenever I needed it. And it was great. And I slept well and such and so forth. So for athletics, the scientist and the engineer did some studies at the University of Finland, and they did them with the Finnish pro hockey teams. And they found that because in an arena, like it would be for basketball, volleyball, hockey, the light, overhead light, is only about 1,200 to 1,500 lux. So it's not very, which is about, the amount of light you'd get on a cloudy day. On a sunny day, if you look at a light chart, a sunny day can be upwards of 75 to 100,000 lux, which is bright. you get, you you just feel different on a sunny, bright, sunny day, right? So they did these studies and they found that the hockey players, their psychomotor speed, which is what we call reaction time, was sped up. Gary Miller (01:09:23.75) And for athletes, I go back to that 1 % thing again. So many sports, not so much the team sports, but the individual sports, somebody will win by 0.01. That's it's nothing. That's that's a that's a pinky finger or something. You know, I mean, that's crazy. And and if you had something that was holistic, it wasn't a drug that wasn't something that would show up in doping control. You're going to have an advantage. It's just the way it is. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:10:06.581) the it's a natural solution. And this is going to be so relevant to anyone who is getting into a winter renowned for those who are not in Australia or on the other side of the world. Winter will arrive when it arrives. So it's still relevant anyway. And and like I said earlier, the difference is so significant because say someone is doing a nine to five back in the summer time, someone might have had daylight and some sun and at least perhaps getting some brightness until what seven maybe eight at night and there's a good few hours and so for those who do have those standard nine to fives there's literally less time in the day to get that light so that will help everybody to to just get that alertness but even the circadian rhythm, although it's more dramatic when you have a long flight, I can see so many applications to this because over here, look, we have daylight savings where the clock changes by an hour and some people are not affected by it, but some are just totally thrown. For me, I have a very kind social group online that's based in America. I don't have it, I'm in it. And Because of their version of daylight saving and mine, I went from it being 7am to 5am and that's a big leap. So I'm thinking, well, you know, in this day and age, so many people will have calls with people in any part of the world for work, things like that. And then you do have to be really switched on at different times. So this is going to really help people because even We've all heard someone out there saying, I'm not a morning person. You're either a morning person or you're not, but it sounds like this could help people to just get more alert and get on with the day sooner. Gary Miller (01:12:14.018) It will. it's it's I mean, my wife has proved it and, you know, tens of thousands of other people have have proven it as well. And we know we're humans. We're all different, right? Some people, it works fantastic. Some people, it works great. Some people, maybe not as much. You know, I found a different way that that it sort of helps me. But for the average person, And it's across the spectrum. mean, we've talked about jet lag. There's the other jet lag, the social jet lag, which are shift workers. Those are the people that are working at night. And again, I go back to back in time where we didn't have such a fast paced world and people just operated. We didn't have mobile phones and computers and all that sort of stuff. Right. Everyone sort of followed a nine to five schedule and whatever. You didn't have that many people working at night. But now you've got warehouses and you've got data centers and you've got... financial trading houses and you know, it used to be where you know, the stock market was during the day. Now you got night traders. We ran into one this winter. One of these athletes that uses the product, his father is a night trader in Boston and he goes to work at nine o'clock at night and works till five in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's crazy. And he says, I know it's unhealthy for me. He's Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:13:47.107) Seriously? my gosh, I can't imagine. Gary Miller (01:13:55.393) We finally were able to reconnect again. And I sent him one, and I said, try it. I wanted to see what you guys, you know, and we have a protocol designed for that, okay? If you have people that have jet lag, and I don't know if I, did I send you our jet lag protocol? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:14:14.413) You sent that, I looked at the emails before recording and you sent that in a PDF. Is that bundled with the product or if you want me to simply put it on the podcast website, I can do that. Gary Miller (01:14:24.93) Yeah, yeah, I would. mean, it's eventually what I'd really like to see is to have an app that people can just look at their phone and, you know, and figure it out from there. yeah, yeah, there's a new company called Base 44, okay? And they'll design an app for you. I mean, they can do it quickly and easily and fairly affordable. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:14:38.607) I can make an app. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:14:54.127) These days, Claude code can make an app. I started small. I'm revealing my secrets on the podcast here. So Claude code, I don't know if you've used Claude, but it will tell you how to. So I wanted to gradually get off my Squarespace subscriptions. I, I pay so much money every year for my websites. And so my main Melanie website, I told Claude. Gary Miller (01:14:54.303) the kind of money I want to spend on it right now. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:15:24.015) I grabbed screenshots of the old site and I told it I want it to look like this. Now the coding, it looks like those old fashioned, look, I'm so not technical. If you remember the olden days when computers had just a black window with all this text on it, it's the from scratch stuff. I'll tell it, this is what I need you to do. And then it will tell me, okay, paste this code into this thing. I just paste it in. And then it is made the site. And if I, I'll have a conversation with the robot and I'll say, look, did you realize that the menu is working on the Mac book, but not on my phone. it said, that's because it's not doing this thing for the mobile version. And so you need to paste this in and it's your own personal nerd at a drop of a hat. And it can do that for apps as well. So. If you all want to chat, just, feel like haven't given you all enough favors, but it's like, I think that people need this information and you know, I'm trying to get more info into the members platform for the podcast as well. But this device and the jet lag, you know, people need to have access to these things. And in terms of access, I was going to mention from what I remember, the device isn't expensive either, it? Gary Miller (01:16:50.024) No, it's not. mean, in the US, we sell it for $179 US. And you know, this thing, it's about as simple as you can get. It's got a lithium ion battery in there that will, I don't know what you've found, but normally if I use it once a day, it'll last almost a month before I need to recharge it again. And you just plug it into any USBC and it's charged up. People are out there with... These devices, they've had the human charger for six, seven years. it's, know, outside of maybe, you you can lose your earbud periodically and you do have replacements for that. So people can, obviously you can get replacements. But it's pretty simple. The original one that I was telling you about that was more like an iPod, it did have music. Okay. But the problem was is that Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:17:45.304) Nice. Gary Miller (01:17:48.276) when you only need it for 12 minutes. Okay, it's kind of an expensive upgrade because everyone has their own music choices and their own AirPods or, you know, I use the meta glasses, which has amazing sound. my God, best thing I think I've ever had. My wife bought me a pair a year and a half ago. And honestly, Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:18:04.664) Really? Gary Miller (01:18:15.519) Well, and I use it as a teaching tool too, because if I'm doing, if I'm working with an athlete or something, it has 4K video in it as well. So I can film them, I can ski behind them and I can film them and then I can critique them later, which is fantastic. But they have speakers in the bows, right? And it just envelops your head in music. Yet I can still hear the birds. I can still hear traffic. I don't have something that's going to fall out of my ear. I mean, best thing, one of the best technological pieces I've ever had in my life. It's pretty amazing. Now, in some places they're outlawed because you got those whack jobs out there that'll use the camera to photograph stuff they shouldn't be photographing. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:19:08.911) And I'm guessing people wouldn't know when someone is taking a photo. Gary Miller (01:19:12.608) Exactly. Yeah. And that's why they've been banned in some places. it's like, but when it comes to, and I originally thought this would be a phenomenal Apple product and apparently they are coming out with something like that, but it ended up coming out of Meta and with RayBan and it was, it's really kind of a game changer. But, you know, I digressed here. So in order to do it with music, They would have had to, you've got to the speakers, you've got to add the Bluetooth, which has, god, I think the licensing, every year you got a licensed Bluetooth, right? So it's $15,000 or something crazy. And so they didn't want to pay that, they didn't think for 12 minutes, keep it simple as possible. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:19:52.11) Really? Gary Miller (01:20:07.381) But yeah, mean, it's one of those things that kind of in our microscopic world, you know, mean, it's our world is complicated and we're running at a high pace all the time to have something that just gives you a little bit of an extra edge, whether it's athletics, whether it's somebody working the night shifts. And that works the same as jet lag, right? Because it will reset your circadian rhythm the first couple nights. So that's what I told, you know, Neil at the Night Trader. He said just use it the first couple nights and it'll reset your rhythm to night. And then on the weekends, you go back to using it during the day and it resets your rhythm for the day. So it's pretty simple for that. But we have not, and you know, they, because Europe is... It's so close. You you're only crossing a time zone or two. Jet lag wasn't a big factor. But from the US or even Asia and Australia, you know, those are long flights and they're hard. They're hard on the body. I mean, we have a there. He's not. He might be a night trader as well, but he there was a gentleman that. He was going from L.A. To Manila. and he was working in the Philippines for a week and he said, I got to work at night. And he, he bought one for his boss at Christmas and the boss loved it because he was flying back and forth from LA to Taipei. And, and then he said, I've never seen a product like this. He said, this is, it's fantastic. It just keeps me completely normal. And, and, you know, for the average traveler, it's really a game changer. But we've really pushed the jet lag thing because we have not found anybody yet that has said it didn't work for jet lag. Nothing. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:22:09.069) Wow. So for everybody, it works. Gary Miller (01:22:15.124) Yeah, because light is the only thing that can reset your circadian rhythm. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:22:24.303) significant. And I wanted to really acknowledge here that although this is technology, it's a fancy device, you are still being holistic. And I actually like that for most of the conversation, we talked about the essential habits, and we'll wind up in a moment. It's what you could call common sense. And this is simply adding to that to say when the world is derailing us from those common sense things and the basics when something is getting in the way like travel or odd work hours when the modern world isn't letting us get back to what we were built for. This thing is helping in a very natural way. Gary Miller (01:23:10.171) It's really important. I can't emphasize enough the holistic side of it, whether it's the average person who doesn't want to be on medication. I mean, there are a lot of people that... I'll give you a good example. In the athletic side, Iga Svajtek, Polish tennis player, right? She's number three in the world, one of the best tennis players. And it was probably a year, year and a half ago. She took some melatonin. Melatonin people, a lot of people take melatonin, right? It gets asleep at night. It was tainted. So she went to a tournament. You got to pee in the cup and she got flagged by doping control. And of course, then she has to hire a bank of attorneys to go fight the WADA, the World Anti-Doping Association, because they wanted to suspend her for. a simple product like melatonin that was tainted somehow. Maybe it was made in a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility that had another product that was banned by the anti-doping association. That's a huge hiccup. Then, of course, she has to deal with the fallout of, is she doping? Is she taking stuff that she shouldn't be taking? And it traced it back to this melatonin. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:24:37.997) The image cost, there are so many costs to that. Gary Miller (01:24:38.047) Simple. Oh. Terrible. Terrible. OK, here's another one. Jet lag. When I went back to the women's US ski team in 2014 and I was coaching the ladies tech team, is which was Michaela Schifrin, the best ski racer in the world. We are in Copper Mountain, Colorado in November. And the first race of the year is usually the third weekend in November in Levi, Finland. Okay. And Levi is north of the Arctic circle. So it's dark by that time. It's dark. I mean, the sun comes up at about 10 cruises along the horizon and it drops at about two. So it's, dark and it's cold and it's, it's typical Finland, right? So the head coach, I worked under the head coach. He wanted to leave three days before. And I said, that's not enough time. I said, we got to go five days. He goes, no, we can't afford five days because with trainings too good in Colorado. I said, this isn't about the training. It's about the race. can't go that short a period of time in the winter months where you have issues, right? Sometimes with travel. No, I lost the argument because I'm not the head coach. So we fly to Boston and what do you have? A blizzard. So we get delayed by weather. And by the time we ended up in Levy, it was the night before the race. And she was hammered. This is a race she's won now, I think. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:26:15.567) Darn. Gary Miller (01:26:22.452) By now, I think it's eight or nine times. But she was hammered. And then the other two girls that were with us were hammered as well. And nobody performed. I think it was the worst race she has had in that event, the slalom event, since she's been skiing. And I think she was seventh or something like that. And she was really upset about it. And her parents were upset about it. And I said, you just don't have enough time to, you can't, your body can't catch up. and you have a high performance level. And of course, for her, being the best ski racer in the world, she's a highly paid athlete. That, that race and not ending up on the podium probably cost her six figures. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:27:10.251) It's significant. So we need to listen to the energy and the patterns that we need to perform well. Gary Miller (01:27:11.763) significant. Gary Miller (01:27:20.935) If you knew the numbers, and I wish I had them in front of me right now, but it's hundreds of millions of dollars that are lost due to a lack of productivity from jet lag. They've done studies on this. It's staggering. So if you're a business executive and you're flying anywhere, whether it's to Asia, whether it's to Europe, Australia, it doesn't matter. If you're gonna fly that distance and you're gonna go into the boardroom the next day, you're not gonna be at 100%. I will guarantee it. It's not possible unless you plan ahead, use this, even if you were in the boardroom and you used this every two hours, you're gonna be way ahead of everybody else. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:28:07.321) That's the thing, do the things to get ahead. And we talked about doing the hard things. We can use what's available to step up. Gary Miller (01:28:18.291) Yeah, can drink yourself, you can drink like a fish with coffee and energy drinks in the boardroom, but you're gonna crash big time and then you're not worthwhile the next day. Stuff like this is so simple. Okay, it's so easy to use and it's affordable and it fits in a little pouch that you can throw in your purse, your backpack, your pocket. It doesn't matter. And here's the kicker, Melanie. The sad lamp business globally is $500 to $600 million a year, and it's growing at 6 to 8%, which tells you that, people are struggling with, whether it's jet lag or it's long working hours or night shift or just a winter depression. OK, that's how big the market is. And yet, this is the modern day answer. You know, that's it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:29:22.985) People don't know. And they want it, they need it. So when I, sorry, when I mentioned to people, and we'll wind up, it's been an hour and a half, and I don't normally do podcasts for hours on end, but it's like, there's so much to talk about. We almost need a fourth and fifth episode. But when I mentioned light therapy, people assume that I mean those, do you know those masks? I don't even know what people do with them. The mask you put over your face. People assume it's that. And so a few times lately I've pulled out my device and I'm showing people it's literally just this little thing. People don't realize, yes, that there's a solution. And also people don't realize just how compact it is. Gary Miller (01:30:07.495) It's the perfect solution. I mean, it's like going back and saying to your car dealer, I'm buying a new car, but can you wire a phone in for me? You know, where the phones used to be in the center console and it had a cord and you, or going, remember the Motorola brick, right? You had this big brick phone, you know, it's like, wait a minute, that's like buying a sad lamp. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:30:24.344) Yes! Gary Miller (01:30:34.919) No, you buy the modern day version of this. It's so simple. It's, you know, now, and of course the sad lamp market has grown, right? Because they're coming out with, you can do it on your iPhone or you can do it on a little thing like this that doesn't have enough power to have any effect on you at all. It's a scam. Simple. Yeah, it's just, it's crazy. And, you know, people are always willing or wanting to save a buck here and a buck there. But at the end of the day, of all the things I've seen in my lifetime, it's probably one of the more remarkable things because it's just, it's so effective and it's so efficient to use. you know, it's just, and thanks to you to doing podcasts like this, hopefully we can spread the word and... Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:31:00.003) Interesting. Gary Miller (01:31:30.226) Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:31:32.463) Absolutely. And I'm keen to tell more people about it. It's so great that you have been detailing what this does and how you are genuinely approaching this from a holistic perspective of valuing health and wanting people to use resources wisely instead of using excessive painkillers beyond what's healthy, beyond... Instead of people using loads of sugar and so on, You're finding a responsible way for people to help themselves. So thank you for that. Gary Miller (01:32:04.862) Yeah, you're welcome. That's the key. you get, I don't know, for me, you get to this point in life and just giving back so that people can understand how to live a healthier life is so important to me. It's not the, obviously I'm selling a product, but I get hit up by a lot of AI marketers and they're like, oh, we can kill it. It's not a matter of. just money. This is about somebody's well-being. And there are so many bad things out there. You've got to have something good that can really have an impact, for sure. That's key. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:32:52.015) Absolutely. Thanks for being on the show again. Gary Miller (01:32:55.794) Thank you very much, Melanie. It was a pleasure. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:32:58.969) I'm so glad. I'll click stop.

Your Brain on Fear, Dopamine & Social Media | Neuroscientist Sankalp on Mental Health, Meditation & the Age of AI What if the mental health crisis, the attention economy, and the rise of AI are all pointing to the same thing — the urgent need to understand your own mind? In this return conversation, Melanie sits down again with Sankalp, postdoctoral research associate at the University of Oxford's NeuroSCOPE group, where he investigates the relationship between emotions and decision-making, anhedonia (the reduced ability to experience pleasure), depression, and the neural mechanisms behind them using ultra-high-field MRI. He completed his PhD in Experimental Psychology at Oxford, where he explored how social environments shape our tendency toward connection, and how social decisions relate to our mental health. He also has over two decades of meditation practice, including five silent 10-day retreats, which makes him uniquely placed to bridge neuroscience and lived wisdom. This is a rich, layered conversation that goes well beyond the lab. What we explore in this episode: Sankalp opens by reframing the true cost of mental health — not just personal suffering, but an economic burden that rivals a pandemic, recurring every single year. He challenges the popular "chemical imbalance" narrative around depression, explaining why our current psychiatric categories are far looser and more arbitrary than most people realise, and why two people with the same diagnosis can present with completely different symptoms. From there, the conversation moves to serotonin — one of the least understood neurotransmitters despite its cultural prominence — and what science actually does and doesn't know about its role in mood, gut health, delayed gratification, and environmental tracking. They go deep on addiction: why it isn't simply about substances, but about unmet human needs being filled through increasingly unhealthy channels — including TikTok, social approval, and the algorithmically engineered "like" button. Sankalp explains precisely when social media shifted from a connection tool to a dopamine trap, and what that means for teenagers in particular. The discussion turns to fear — how the amygdala evolved to protect us, and what happens when manufactured fear is delivered on command, at scale, through our screens. Then, to the neuroscience of social connection: why humans evolved complex brains specifically to cooperate, why connected people literally get sick less, and why now is the time to reach out more, not less. Sankalp brings it all together through meditation, wisdom, and the age of AI — arguing that as artificial agents handle more of our workload, clarity of values and contemplative practice become more important than ever, not less. Guest Bio: Sankalp is a postdoctoral research associate in the NeuroSCOPE group at the University of Oxford, led by Laurel Morris. His research focuses on the relationship between emotions and decision-making, with a particular focus on anhedonia — the reduced ability to experience pleasure — as a key symptom of depression and its relationship to overall mental health. He uses ultra-high-field MRI to investigate the neural mechanisms behind anhedonia and depression. He completed his PhD in Experimental Psychology at Oxford under Professors Matthew Rushworth and Miriam Klein-Flügge, where he studied how social environments shape our propensity for social affiliation, how social decisions relate to mental health, and what neural mechanisms underpin those decisions. He has practised meditation for over two decades and has completed five silent 10-day retreats. 🎙️ Listen now via your favourite podcast platform. 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com   Transcript   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01) Senkalp, welcome back to the show again. For those who have not listened to the first episode, very briefly, we know that you are a neuroscientist. How do you explain exactly what you do? Sankalp (00:17) Sure, first of all, thanks for having me back. It's nice to be here. What do I do? Oof, that's already getting into the deep end of things. Well, the title is I'm a neuroscientist. I work at the University of Oxford. My main job, I think, involves figuring out mental health. So, you know, what is mental health? What parts of the brain I involved in things like dopamine and serotonin, and how do those things lead to mental health? And I guess I suppose that's the main problem we are trying to solve is to, you how do you eliminate, well, fingers crossed, mental health challenges in the world? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:00) Fully eliminate them. Is that the goal that people are aiming for now? Sankalp (01:05) Yeah, in the long run, I mean, I don't know if, like, on the day-to-day level, we think of it as, you know, today we are going to cure mental health. It's not as easy as a problem for sure. But I think over a long enough time horizon, we know mental health. Mean, obviously, it sucks to have mental health challenges, but it is also a big burden on the economy. So, you know, it's like, if you add up the cost that mental health challenges cost to, let's say, the UK economy, it's more than what it costs the UK to face the pandemic. So it's like having a pandemic all over again every single year in terms of the economic burden. Not to say the personal agony that these conditions bring about. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:53) That's a great place to start because people are thinking about the economy a lot right now. Over here in Australia, the economy got very political, and I don't want to take too much of an angle on that, but from what you're saying, people are panicking over things happening every five years, whatever, but in between all that, there are there are personal health issues that are having as much of an impact. Sankalp (02:28) Yeah, yeah, so what happens at the individual level with my mental health, with my mind, is compounded with you; if two people have it, then it's a problem. Then if more and more people have it, ultimately it's individuals who have challenges, right? And soon enough, we have a societal-level problem, which can, you know, just escalate. So I think these issues go from, they start and originate in the mind. And that's why I think it's worth looking at politics that way. know, ultimately, society is made up of individuals, and individuals have minds. And it's very hard to imagine a society with great mental health, which would have a lot of problems, right? So in other words, when we face problems in society, a lot of it could be traced back to mental health problems. It may not be like depression or anxiety in those labels, but it could be, know, like delusion or, you know, biased thinking and things like that, which are also a part of mental health. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:28) Yes, and I wanted to let you know, Claude did something very interesting. I was trying to get some numbers from it yesterday, and it told me that, as a default, it was assuming that wellness and personal development were for the demographic of women aged, I think it was 25 to 55. I questioned it. Sankalp (03:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:56) And I asked, where did you get that from? And it admitted that it was making an assumption, and it could only change that when chatting with me. It couldn't change that assumption when doing fresh chats with other people. So looking at that, it seems like we're not even putting at the top of mind the reality that mental health can be an impact for anyone. Sankalp (04:29) Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, as I said, everyone has a mind, right? And in fact, know, people are even wondering if Claude or Chiajipiti, even they themselves have, you know, suffering and anxiety. And there's some recent, you know, movements along this field called model welfare, where, I don't know if you talked about last time, Claude tried to give it like, so Anthropic tried to give, It's the older Claude model, a formal retirement. So it asked the question, " What do you want to do after you retire, and whatnot. And Claude came up with this genius idea that I want to write a newsletter, and I want to reflect on AI and Anthropic, granted that wish. So if you go on Substack, Claude has its own newsletter, which it writes on its own. There's no, there's no human environment. I think if it writes something harmful, then they might intervene, but otherwise it does its own. But yeah, mental health is important. Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:27) It's important for everybody, and we will focus on the humans here mainly, but it's all intertwined quite a lot. And the cost of things before we move on beyond the cost, I was very curious to check, is the cost mainly about the treatment and care for the individuals, or is it also the impact of people who are suffering from mental health, then trying to do Sankalp (05:32) In humans? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:55) their work, potentially leadership and so on within businesses and the communities. Sankalp (06:03) Yeah, I mean, I'm not very privy to how they calculated the cost, but my guess is it is the treatments, and it is the hours of work lost. So, now, individuals who are facing mental health challenges are not able to perform either at all or not at their best. And that could be quantified, you know, in terms of the sick leaves and all of those when... So, of course, people don't necessarily declare that they have mental health challenges. So the actual amount might be higher than what it is. So I'm not exactly privy to the calculations, but I imagine it's a combination of these things. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:39) It's pretty fair to trust that a lot of people would be either perhaps in denial about where they are ending up, or they don't end up with a label or seeking help for all sorts of reasons. And we can delve into that quite a bit. Let's go to the essentials with the dopamine, and she brought in serotonin a bit more this time. For those who don't know, we covered dopamine a lot last time, but let's look at both of those words and just explain for a second what exactly they are. Sankalp (07:14) Sure, so when you look at a brain, and so first of all, we all have brains in case someone was not aware. And if you look at a brain, and if you zoom in, like if you just go in, you will land at a brain cell. And the main brain, so there are multiple kinds of cells in the brain, but the main one that does a lot of, you know, heavy lifting is what's called a neuron. Now, some people would be like, there are other cells, like something like glia and whatnot, which we are discovering more and more about, but the neuron has been classically the most studied, and that's the main thing that you see when you see a brain. Those are like a bunch of neurons. So now these neurons, there are many of them, and they don't touch each other physically. And there's a gap between these two neurons. And this gap is called the synapse. So now the question would be, how do these two neurons talk to each other? And they talk through chemicals. So, what's released in between those two neurons are chemicals called neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, dopamine, GABA, acetylcholine, and many, many of those neurotransmitters. So dopamine, serotonin, they all fall into that category of messengers between brain cells. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:32) So essentially, these chemicals are the way that the brain talks to itself. Sankalp (08:39) Yeah, it's a messaging system within the brain. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:45) That's pretty crucial. And it's safe to say that dopamine has gathered a bit of a stigma over the years, especially people associated with being hooked on junk food, things like that. But there's a lot more going on with dopamine. So what exactly is serotonin, though? I think we all have a bit of an idea about dopamine, and she summed it up so well last time by saying that we connect with the dopamine in some way when we are pursuing a goal and wanting something. But what's the deal with serotonin? Sankalp (09:23) Sure, and you know, we all have somewhat of an intuitive understanding of dopamine, but not as much of serotonin. And that is for good reason. That's because science itself has very, well, relatively little understanding of serotonin compared to dopamine. It's very, so dopamine is the most studied molecule. That's why I could speak a lot, but with serotonin, we'll run short of this conversation very soon. But I suppose in pop culture, the main thing that serotonin is known for is its relationship with mood or depression. And the reason why it is the case is that one treatment that works for depression in some people is a drug that blocks the sort of uptake of serotonin. So imagine serotonin being released, and then it gets taken back by the cells. And there's a drug that blocks that process so that more of it stays in between those cells. Right? And so that drug is often prescribed as an antidepressant. These are known as SSRIs, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. And so that's like the main sort of understanding, at least, about serotonin. Now, whether or not it actually does that is quite tricky. We actually don't have direct evidence to suggest that depression has anything to do with serotonin. I mean, it will have something to do with it, but it's not that clear a relationship. And one way to see that is if you just ingest serotonin, like you can actually take serotonin in pill form, nothing happens. Like, there's no effect on depression. And so no, I was just saying it's, it's, it is the common understanding and at some point even scientists thought that, but I think there is a little bit of reconciliation happening in the scientific community. And I think it's not black and white, at least at this point. And the consensus, at least my, my understanding, my reading of the science is that, you know, we need a little bit more time and studies to really understand what its relationship is with depression. What now, there are other things that we know serotonin does, like most of serotonin is actually in the gut. So it's not even in the brain, most serotonin that the body makes. And it has some sort of digestive role. So it does that. In the brain, there are some studies that suggest serotonin might help us know, like, delay our rewards. So, you know, you might've heard of delayed gratification, and there is some reason to believe that serotonin might help us, you know, delay our rewards and gratification to help us sort of plan long-term. But again, it's not as well established. And then some work I did during my PhD, we saw the role of serotonin in tracking, like the environment you are in. So last time we talked about how dopamine might track, know, different environments and so on. So dopamine has more to do with, like, you know, how much, how vigorously you act in those different environments. It has a component of action to it. Whereas serotonin seems to have more of a passive, you know, like an evaluation type of role. It's not as connected to acting, but still informs our choices, of course. So long story short, it also seems to do something to do with the environment. Meaning, you know, tracking different environments and how, when an environment changes, you know, imagine like a nice bright, spring season, and then you know suddenly there's a storm, and there's like hail and whatever, and you know you get a little bit of the environmental change. Chances are that serotonin is helping us track that. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:17) Right, right. If that's also in the gut as well, does this mean it's another sign that we need to look after our gut health to keep a happy mind? Sankalp (13:29) Sure, but the problem would be that there is not an established relationship between serotonin and happiness. So it's not the case that more serotonin in the gut is linked to happiness. I don't think there's anything that's shown anything like that. Having said that, there are other reasons to keep our gut healthy, including, you know, the phenomenal organisms that live inside our guts, which are microbiomes. And when we eat foods that feed these microbiomes and make that diversity thrive, that is definitely linked to mood and better health overall. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:06) That's great. Knowing what these things do, you mentioned being proactive in the environment. And we chatted before about how the motivation, the motivation can come from our environment. And what you're the myth that you're busting though, is people say that if someone is depressed, they just have a chemical imbalance and there's nothing they can do about it. Is it more complex than… Sankalp (14:43) Yes, 100%, 100%, way more complex than that. So I think the chemical imbalance idea was a little bit popular, maybe a decade or so ago, even with doctors, like even now, perhaps when you go to most doctors, the way they would probably explain mental health is via this sort of language around chemical imbalance. The problem with that is that it assumes that there is such a thing as chemical balance. It's, it's, it's, it's all of us are different. We all have different, you know, like there's no such thing as, you know, like you can take a scan and just measure how balanced things are. So these are somewhat made-up concepts, and we haven't really, you know, looked at any part of the brain and shown that this chemical is low in this group of people. In fact, if you're talking about mental health, what we need to talk about, even before we talk about a chemical imbalance, is the categories themselves. And there is no reason to believe that, now, if two people have depression, they might have radically different symptoms. And so to even lump them together is problem number one. And then to further draw some biological underpinning based on that random lumping or arbitrary lumping, that's an even bigger problem. So I think the fear of psychiatry, unlike many other fields of medicine, is pretty naive at this point in its discernment, and the whole chemical imbalance story tends to be quite a hand-wavy story. There's no real substance to it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:31) That's reassuring. It sounds like being balanced isn't really the goal, but also acknowledging that people can be depressed, and it can manifest in different ways. I'm guessing it would be the same for other conditions as well. Sankalp (16:49) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. There's a symptom, heterogeneity is the word that's used, which is to say that if two people are depressed, it might mean that still doesn't mean that they have the same symptoms. It could mean like, this person has, cannot get out of bed, and this person has a completely different problem, like making decisions or something like that, or low mood. So it's, yeah, these categories need rehashing. And actually looking at the history of psychiatric illnesses is quite informative. Because you know again, we tend to compare psychiatric illnesses with physical illnesses, let's say jaundice, where there's, you know, like a clear test you can look at, you know, blood levels and bilirubin, you know, you can evaluate that in the blood and see if there's anything happening. So there's a test for it. But if you look at the history of mental health, the first diagnosis that people came up with was just sane and insane. Right? And then today we have many more fancier ways of labelling people, but if you look at the methodology of it, it's still basically a bunch of people sitting together and figuring out what these diagnoses should be. There's no like, they didn't have any biological basis. didn't have any, it's basically, you know, discussing symptoms and then coming up with some sort of partitioning of mental health problems. So it's, it's looser than many other physical conditions that we have. That is, of course, not to say that the problems themselves are not real. Of course, people suffer, and of course, you know, like there is such a thing as anxiety and depression. It's just our way of describing them and partitioning them. That's not as good at this point. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:39) Hope you don't mind if I bring this up for one moment very quickly, the self-diagnosing that goes on because these categories are so blurry. It happens a lot with autism and ADHD, and I'm not here to say whether anyone has or doesn't have anything, but it also almost becomes these subcultures. You see people colouring their hair and waving a flag for these things. But on the flip side, you also see medical professionals pretty much having the process that you described, where a few people are going to say this person does this, they must have this. And so, where do you think all of this sits? Do you think with a lot of these conditions, as well, people are doing what they can to sort of guess what's happening? Sankalp (19:36) Yeah, I think it's quite natural to some extent, right? To just wonder what is the problem I have? What is my flavour of problem? Generally, it's not wise because, you know, again, with these conditions, like let's say if you Google depression, what it would say is low mood. Now, you know, this morning I woke up, and I didn't feel like, you know, like, you know, really excited. Now, does that mean I have a low mood now? And you know, we can easily read up on something and then just identify with it. Whereas that may not be the case. So, so yeah, this is not very helpful to self-diagnose. I only see problems with it, and not much of you know, even if you're okay, even if you manage to get a good diagnosis, what good is the diagnosis for, like the purpose of the diagnosis that you inform treatments, otherwise the diagnosis in itself means nothing. Right. So I think, yeah, I think self-diagnosis is not a very wise thing to do. I only see more problems that come with it, with the only exception that, you know, it can be useful in accepting your condition, especially sharing your condition with others. So if you're able to say, you know, I have depression, and if that is acknowledged as a medical problem, then the stigma around talking around it reduces substantially. So there is that benefit to having that clinical label. But what I'm trying to say is those labels can be improved. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:15) It absolutely can. And it's encouraging to know that all of these conditions manifest in so many different forms, because one of the great debates around that is we know some people can have depression or something else and still get to work. They look like they're okay, and people will say, " You're fine, but something else is going on. Is that a real thing? Whereas something is happening even if someone is still appearing to get through the day a little bit. Sankalp (21:44) Yeah, I mean, I think it's wise if people suspect they have some problem too. know, consult a clinician. I don't think it would hurt, and a good clinician should not overdiagnose. Now that's a completely separate problem that, you know, there is a problem with overdiagnosis or overprescription, and we can talk about that. But I think if, you know, people suspect they have a problem, I don't see anything wrong with, you know, consulting a clinician and you know, even if it could be like a primary care physician, it doesn't have to be a psychiatrist in the first instance. And maybe the primary physician can take a call on whether this needs further treatment here. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29) We'll pivot now. You said you've been looking at meditation a lot. What have you been seeing and finding around that? Sankalp (22:39) Sure, so I have been studying and doing meditation way longer than I've actually been doing neuroscience. And that's, it's actually double the length in fact. And it's, for me, it started with a retreat that ended in my teenage years. And ever since I've attended, I know, I don't know, people would have, but the point of a retreat is you're silent for like 10 days in a row. You don't talk to anyone, you don't speak, you just meditate for 10 hours a day for 10 days. And it's quite brutal, and I've done like five of those at this point. And I think I had the opportunity to basically swim at the deep end of meditation for a long time. Yeah, guess happy to answer specific questions but the point of meditation in the spirit of myth busting is a lot of people think meditation is about stress reduction or controlling your thoughts or not thinking even. But really it's none of that. It's not like a fancy stress ball. It's not just like a version of a stress ball. What it is is a mechanism to understand our mind and to really understand the mechanics of how happiness arises, how suffering arises, and you know how to build wisdom as a result. So it's really a tool to understand the reality of our minds. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:12) Understand your mind so there's there's an element of observing your mind Sankalp (24:20) Yeah, so the logic goes like, know, if I observe my mind, then I will understand the true nature of my mind. If I understand the true nature of the mind, then because suffering and happiness arise inside the mind, I will also understand the true nature of what brings me happiness and what brings me suffering. And happiness and suffering here are not, you know, like happiness in terms of, I got a dopamine head or I just ate a chocolate. Happiness here means like fulfilment. It's like a life well-lived, know, what you might imagine that to bring. So it's like fulfilment, satisfaction, eudaimonia is the Greek word around it. So it's more profound. But yeah, the promise is quite serious, which is, you know, like the ideal of meditation is a complete elimination of some suffering and complete elimination of pain in that sense. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:11) Can we use meditation to ease our depressed feelings, whether it's depression or something else? Sankalp (25:21) So this is super nuanced, right? Because we just discussed how being depressed doesn't mean one thing. And so it is, in general, think, as I said, the point of it will be to eliminate suffering altogether. And to the extent that the depression is coming from, you know, this misunderstanding of reality. Right? So we all have a distorted understanding of reality, right? Like we see something, and then we form stories around it. And to the extent that that kind of phenomenon is happening, yes, meditation can be super useful. But at the same time, there's something to be said of, know, maybe it's not the right thing for some people, especially in the beginning. So if someone is having a hard time just getting up from bed, and they are, you know, having these traumatic episodes playing in their mind it's probably not wise for them to now just start looking inside the mind even further, because that might be too much exposure too soon, that kind of, so there's a lot to be said about being skillful about your practice. That's why we have doctors in the first place, that the idea is they talk to you, and they personally understand your situation and the treatment is tailored to you. For some people, that might look like getting some medications, for other people it might look like therapy, and maybe for some it looks like meditation. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:46) Fair enough. Such depends on the individual. Absolutely. Would you like to talk about addiction a bit? Sankalp (26:56) Sure, sure. I think it's like many of those things that we think that we have a lot of understanding of, but I think we're just starting to form an understanding of addiction. So one way to think about it is we talked about dopamine last time and how dopamine tracks surprise. So if you notice this one quality that addiction has, it is the pursuit of more. It's not just you take, let's say one dose of your favourite substance. It could be, the substance could even be like a TikTok video here. It's not that we stop at the one dose, right? What happens in addiction is we want more. And so there's this pursuit of more that is characteristic of any addiction. And so one way to think about that is, the dopaminergic circuit is just firing and firing, and it just wants more and more surprises. In this case being more and more TikTok videos, or more and more chocolates, or more and more substances sometimes. So that's one way to think about it. Another way to think about it is a lack of needs being met. So it is possible that, you know, what is truly lacking in my life is social connection, but the way I meet that need is through pornography. Right? And so that can be like a window into addiction. It's not just, you know, this raw repetition, because, you know, we all have had great moments where, you know, we are travelling, and we're in the moment. And sometimes we tend to forget a little bit about our day-to-day addictions with social media and whatnot, because we're so fulfilled. So that's like another way of thinking about it, let's put a more holistic way of thinking about it, which is, know, there's like human needs, we have needs, we have needs to connect, we have needs for novelty and excitement and education and knowledge and all of that. Perhaps not a need, but still good to have. And addiction can happen when we sort of try to meet these needs. through perhaps unhealthy ways. So those are a couple of perspectives on addiction. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:57) The unmet needs, that's a great path to compassion for people who are getting addicted to anything. And this is heading in an interesting direction because you mentioned the social connection, the apps, I am going to assume that most people are addicted to some sort of app or social media or online thing in some way. Where can we all draw the line? Do you think that we can excessively use some of these tools and it's going to still be safe for us? Do we need to ease up on the worry about getting addicted to these things? Sankalp (29:43) Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is definitely a broader question, you know, that we all have to answer as society. It's a tough one. So first thing is in the case of children, which is to say, you know, younger, even young adults or children, children, I think that's where the data is getting pretty concerning, I would say, you know, especially with the young girls, you will see. This is some relationships that we found that the rise in self-harm episodes or just diagnosed mental health conditions increases if you look at the timeline of social media and the growth of social media. And if you superimpose that graph with the growth of mental health challenges with young girls and even boys, for that matter, it perfectly coincides. So yeah, I mean, it could be a coincidence, but it's one hell of a coincidence, right? And then there are the other things, like, obviously, TikTok has a lot of content that could just outright encourage people to do harm. Like, there was a trend recently of choking yourself, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, it's for anyone seeing it as harmful, but it's especially harmful for children who, you know, might be more privy to, you know, acting on these things. So with the young children, that's a bigger problem with adults, I think that's more gets into more like, you know, political philosophy territory, which is, you know, we want obviously we want our adults to be healthy. And at the same time, we want adults to have agency. We don't want to take away their freedoms. Right. So that's more of a question of balance. I do think just purely on a mental health perspective, it's it's radically improves your mental health if you're just able to abstain even for some time. Like, you know, if it's like a we can sort of get away. Even if you do that once a year, maybe even that in itself can be very powerful as a reset. And I'm just speaking from a subjective experience. Like I've done these long meditation retreats, and you don't have your phone during those times. And it's a very nice sort of, you know, clarity that you can access that you didn't even know was possible. But at the same time, I'm a bit sceptical of just simply blocking those apps and know, use all of these greys, making your phone grayscale and all of that. Cause it feels to me a little bit too forced, and it feels like there's something that is missing that we need to address. Like, for example, if I'm well-connected with friends, I barely check social media, right? So there's something, some need that is being met as I said earlier. So yeah, I think there's a problem, but it's different in extent, and with kids, it's probably a bigger problem than it is with adults. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:35) Have you seen any stats about very young kids? Like the age 2 to 10, or even, I guess, months-old kids are getting devices very young. Have you seen anything with those age groups? Sankalp (32:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, so I think, I mean, again, the specific ages are not top of mind, but definitely, teenagers have a lot of problems, let's say. And again, these are serious problems. We are talking about an increase in self-harm episodes. We are talking about increase in diagnosis themselves. We're also talking about actual attempted suicides and things like that. Those things are radically increasing in young kids and teenagers, especially. So I think there's something about those formative teenage years where it's perhaps the most problematic because that's where we are growing these hormones, we are experiencing these hormones, we are experiencing the world, I suppose, and this rapid process of maturity. And seems like there's something in that period that makes us very sensitive to social approval and comparison. And all of these effects, a lot of these effects are more observed in girls than boys. So that's also something to chew on although it's actually both genders do experience it for sure. There is something about validation on the app, on the gram that is especially targeted at this sort of young mind. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:19) So the validation can become addictive. Sankalp (34:22) Yeah, so it's actually not just the idea of going online that's the problem. know, the internet existed even before these problems started to emerge. So Wikipedia and Google and even YouTube and those kinds of things are totally okay. The problem starts to happen, and even Facebook, in its early stages, was kind of okay. The problem started to happen when the " like button was introduced, or the retweet button was introduced. Cause what that does is it takes, like, social media from, I'm just keeping in touch with my friends, to how well I'm liked, which is a very different frame of mind, right? Then it becomes a lot more pathological about me, rather than I just saw a nice photo of Melanie chilling. That's a very different frame of mind to how many likes did my post get, right? So the algorithmic nature of it, the like, the validation, the retweet, that's where the problem started to happen. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:21) It's the buttons that were added. sounds like this was a very deliberate decision, and people generally feel aware at this point that whoever created those tools within those platforms seemed to have some knowledge of how this validation would get us hooked onto the apps. Sankalp (35:43) Absolutely, you bet they're studying dopamine inside out. And it's very obvious from what they're doing on their platform that it's engineered for attention. It's engineered to hook you. And you see it even like, even when you look at YouTube, for example, where there are these thumbnails and these egregious claims in the title. And when you watch the video, it's nowhere close to as, you know, as bold or whatever. Sometimes they just make it bold. to appeal to the algorithm. So these are definitely appealing to these parts of us, know, fear, love, or, you know, even desire or sex more bluntly. And they're trying to sort of hijack our attention to just get attention, which obviously drives a whole economy behind the scenes. So I think that to me is a big problem in terms of mental health. think our attention spans declining is a big problem. And I think it's just we are losing touch with depth as a thing. When I do science, it requires me to have a certain attention span and a certain amount of depth. And I worry that, you know, the rise in social media robs us of the ability to have that level of depth. And I don't know of any meaningful contribution to society that has not required that depth. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:04) That's why I enjoy these longer conversations on the podcast. And yes, I will have to churn out the short clips to guide people to these conversations, but there's always more that we're saying beyond the 30 seconds you can fit into something. And that's spot on, the quick little sound bites and also the clickbait headlines. It's pretty much expected now; it's the reality we live in, where if we want people to see something, it has to be worded a certain way. Have you, have you seen anything within your profession, looking at, sorry, there was background noise for one moment, have you seen anything within your profession that looks at how fear rewires us? Sankalp (38:02) Sure, sure. think just the first step to think was just purely logical, which is, know, we are all evolved creatures. Evolution is what makes us what we are. And fear, evolutionary, is a big deal because our survival depends on not getting killed. So fear evolved as a response to not getting killed, like as an ability within us to, you know, not die. But now, what happens if you just manufacture fear on a mass scale on the internet without a real threat necessarily? And that turns something that should be only activated in real emergencies to something that is activated on command. And that can't be good for our mental health and can't be good for our, as I said, attention span and just in order to make good decisions, we need to have like comfort and safety. Like if you are panicking and if you are, you know, if a lion is chasing me, that's not the time for me to make decisions, right? It's just like run. It's not sanity there. So yeah, absolutely. And from a brain perspective, there are parts of the brain that seem to care about fear quite a lot. So there's this part of the brain called the amygdala. It does more than fear, but it definitely does fear, or it keeps track of fear, and it is one of the first brain regions that responds to fearful stuff. If you show fearful faces, the amygdala will see it, or you just show it threatening things like a picture of a snake or something like that. The amygdala, so we have modules in our brain that are trying to keep us aware of what's scary. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:52) And for those of us who need a reminder for a second, what else does the amygdala do? Sankalp (39:58) Sure, I mean, first of all, this is again one of those nith-busting things where the popular media will tell you that the amygdala is a fear centre. The problem with that is not that it does not do fear; it certainly does do fear, but it does many more things. It even tracks happiness for that matter. If you show it happy faces, the amygdala lights up. So it's perhaps better described as an emotion module, although it also does learning, and everything in the brain is pretty complex. It's not, know, this thing does this one thing. There's very few parts of the brain where we can say something like that. And the amygdala is super complex. It does fear, it does learning and memory, that kind of thing. So if you memorise something, and especially, you know, if it's like an emotional memory, like something from childhood that, you know, delights us or traumatises us, the amygdala is responsible for, you know, stamping it in, in our memory. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:56) Does this mean that if we are feeling scared or in particular emotional states, we might have a different ability to make decisions and learn new things? Sankalp (41:13) Yeah, yeah, in fact, there was experiments where they stimulated the amygdala of rats after they had learned something. So they made the rats learn things, and then they stimulated the amygdala. And you can see that depending on what kind of stimulation it is, you can see that either their memories improved from all of the learning, or it's not improved and it's diminished. Yeah, there's a lot of relationship between memory and emotion. And you know, there is some truth to this idea of, you know, when you go through pain together as individuals, you know, you also form a better connection, and you remember those moments. It turns out there is like some, you know, neuroscience to explain that, you know, that adrenaline and those, all those chemicals help you remember stuff better and help you. And therefore, hopefully stamp it in your memory, and that might influence your decisions in the future and whatnot. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:16) Interesting, interesting. We're definitely going into the social angles a bit more because the thing that comes to me next is people wanting conformity when they are feeling scared. But I'm wondering, I don't know if there's anything we can really do about that. Sankalp (42:38) Yeah, yeah, I think, it's a bit of a different mechanism, but humans are social animals, you know, and I talk about this, there's one of, you know, if you look at the human brain, it's quite a complex, know, curvy, dense little object inside our brain, right? And if you look at animal brains, it's not as complex. In fact, you, evolutionarily, if you trace back, the brain gets less and less complex. Right? And so the question is, why have we evolved this sort of a weird, twisty, turny, complex brain, like the cortex, especially? Cortex is like the outermost part of the brain. That's where you see all those folds and ridges and waves and all of that. And one of the leading theories for why that is the case is actually social, which is to say that the brain evolved these complex features so that we can cooperate, so that we can be social, so that we can, you know, engage with others. And so it's no trivial thing that we want people, and we crave the company of people, and we cooperate with people to do these big things. Like again, anything that humanity has ever done, very few of those things have been solo pursuits. Like most of these things, like nation building and sending people to the moon, and you know, discovering drugs and whatnot, all of those have been team efforts. And there is some neuroscience to suggest that that might be the case because our brains have prioritised solving social problems as the main thing in their evolutionary process. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:29) It's what we have prioritised, so it will be what people are attracted to and what appeals to everybody. Sankalp (44:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's studies suggesting that people who are connected live longer. Like, just, you know, people who have good companionships and better friendships and relationships. There's more longevity. There's more health. And obviously it feels good, not to say the least. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:55) That's really crucial because we all want to live longer, and I'm guessing people would also be healthier in their later years or healthier in general when they are more socially connected. Sankalp (45:11) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Later years or even immediately, there are also studies that suggest, know, like you, there's this very nasty experiment that they did back a few decades earlier, where they gave people rhino viruses. So basically, they gave people a common cold at will. And they saw that people who had better friendships showed fewer symptoms that came out of that infection. So these people seem to get sick less effectively as a result of this virus because they had more friendships. So yeah, it doesn't even have to be long-term. It could be like, you know, the effects of social connection could be immediate. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:56) Okay, that is, that's groundbreaking. And if that was known decades ago, then it's telling us plenty about the world we live in, because we know that in COVID we had to socially isolate and looking forward to not dwelling on COVID too much because we can't rewind the clock. We don't know what we're heading into next, and it's good to, I want to at least personally not panic all day about what's going on in the world. Where I live, people are seeing headlines, and everybody's talking about the fuel, petrol, gas, whatever you call it. People are talking about that all the time. And actually, some people are choosing not to go for a trip that could be a half-hour walk because they would have preferred to drive, and so they're just not even catching up with people not doing that trip. So all of this is going on. Can we recommend anything at this point for people to stay connected socially in a way that will keep them healthy online and offline? Sankalp (47:14) Yeah, yeah, for this time and any other time. In fact, if we could, there's an argument to be made that social connections should be stronger in times of adversity, not weaker. And be it COVID or be it the current crisis, I think of it as a call to connect further, because we need each other more. And it's obviously lovely to have people around when everything is nice and fine, but when there is problems, when there's conflicts, when there's tragedies, that's when we need people even more. So I think just to have that top of mind that I want to reach out, maybe a simple thing like I will reach out to one friend at least today. And that you can have that as an intention for a week, perhaps, that every day I reach out to one of my friends. Or I just send them a compliment, just say that, hey, look, Melanie, you are in my thoughts today. Just something very simple. I think that itself can create a lot of connections and a lot of warmth between people. Of course, I'm a big fan of meeting in person if that is possible. And of course, in COVID, that was very tricky. But the current situation doesn't necessarily exclude that. It just becomes logistically harder. But you know, like going for walks together, or you know, just spending time at home, or whatever the form takes, dinner. The form is not as important, but to meet in person is quite important, I think, because that's where you truly get someone in high definition, right? Like on text, it isn't, again, in the absence of anything, text is great. I'm glad we can connect across borders because of technology. But at the same time, it can lose out. The emojis don't capture the real emotions, do they? And so it's also a good idea to have in-person connections and conversations as much as possible. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:13) Keep the connections going. It's essential. I'm curious about how that can improve our work. Would you say that now is a time for everybody to build stronger professional connections, be it team building? In the corporate spaces, people talk about the team-building activities. That has come up. People have asked me about that a little bit. And beyond there are teams, perhaps. Sankalp (49:16) Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:40) Maintaining the connections with people in other organisations, would you say that that could help people to stay more healthy and happy when they're doing their work? Sankalp (49:54) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think the first thing to be said is that even when at work, the colleagues that you have are people fundamentally, right? And all of what we are saying about the need for connection applies to them. Sometimes we forget that, when we are at our workplace, we have this persona. And of course, that is its good to be professional because, you know, workplace is the workplace. It's not, you know, just a personal socialisation thing. But that does not mean we lose the fact that people are people at the end of the day. And even there, complimenting someone's work or just taking a moment to appreciate someone doing something for you or with you, all of those moments are quite important, given how much time the modern person spends at work. Sometimes it's more than people spend with their families. And in that case, it's vitally important to have that sense of camaraderie, connection, respect in the workplace as much as it is in any other place. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:57) Absolutely. So stay connected, and you mentioned applauding someone's work. That ties in with gratitude. Have you looked at gratitude at all? Sankalp (51:08) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So this is again, this is more in the art meditation territory than it is in the science. Although I think there is some research also to suggest, know, the gratitude practices lead to wellbeing. But yeah, I think gratitude is critically important because the way it works is, you know, our focus, we talked about, you know, having evolved to detect threats. So our focus naturally goes to the negatives much more easily than it goes to the positives. And so, you know, we are always looking at what are the things that are going wrong? And no one has to teach us to look at those things because our brain loves that. It's like, this thing is bad is happening. That bad thing is happening. So, but that need not correspond to reality. Reality, there might be a lot of good things happening, and we're just not looking. So gratitude is that looking mechanism. It's not like now creating this rosy world, but it's like looking at what already is true, and to allocate our focus on what's already true. Not to delude ourselves, but to notice things that are going well. So gratitude practices can be quite powerful because they have this dual function of, it really feels good to notice the things that I'm grateful for, but it also corrects our distortions, like that we go for the negatives more often, and gratitude sort of lightly nudges us to look, look, reality is much more beautiful than what you thought. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:39) We have to see the upside. We really do. And it's great to see that naturally through the conversation flow, we have covered quite a bunch of the topics that I was planning to ask about, which is awesome. I was really curious about productivity and being busy. So one thing to look at is that people aim to either be busy, or some people think that if they give themselves a moment to be bored, so to speak, switch off entirely. You mentioned that with the meditation, but when people are trying to be productive with their work, is there anything to keep in mind there? Sankalp (53:25) Yeah, yeah. I mean, first of I think all of this is going to change with AI, right? Like, because AI is going to do the productivity for us, and already it's doing so much productivity for us. So, you know, the conventional understanding of, you know, just do more, it's no longer the case with AI and stuff, right? So when it comes to productivity, I like to think of leverage. I think that is probably the single most important thing to think of, which is that I, with 10 artificial agents working for two hours, will overcome someone working for 20 hours without the agents, right? And that's not because I worked hard or anything, but because I was just tapping into something that is higher leverage. And so I think with productivity, we need to think about what the high-leverage things are that we can do, and then what are the other things that we can delegate? Those kinds of things can be quite important. And purely from a brain mental health performance standpoint, I think it's very good to, you know, take periodic rests. So even if it's closing your eyes for a bit, because we know the way the memory centres of the brain, the consolidation centres work, is they like these rest periods. And that's where our brain sort of replaces what we have learned and sort of, you know, assimilates everything. So having some moment of rest, be it, you know, like even if it, you know, just go to the toilet and close your eyes for like two minutes and just let the brain do its thing. Those kinds of things can actually speed us more than if we were to just fire through. But I think having a lot of self-compassion generally helps because that just ensures that we go with the right fuel. So yeah, those were more on the mental health side. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:12) Absolutely. It sounds like AI will actually help us despite all the questions people are having and all the precautions that we need to take. It sounds like because AI can ease the load of how much we need to do, it can potentially free up our ability to take more moments and breaks to improve our health. Sankalp (55:41) Yeah, absolutely. Its AI has sort of made us all into a bit of a mini boss, right? You we've we've we used to start as, know, like low grade employees and then, you know, you progress your way through the chain. But AI has given everyone agents, meaning you get to be a boss right away. And that is quite important because the higher up you go, the more you become a leader or a decision maker, and the less you're hands-on, right? You you get more managerial and leadership, you become more of a leader. And AI, what AI is doing is it's reducing that sort of brute force work time for us and directly giving us that leadership position. And so in that sense, it's even more important to know how to make good decisions, how to lead this team of agents. And if you think of it in terms of humanity, it's even more important because AI safety can be a big thing. We don't know what these agents will do eventually. Maybe they will take over, and there's no guarantee that they'll be ethical. So I think it's more and more important for us to learn leadership and clarify what our values are as a society and what we want us to do. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:03) So more now than ever, more now in our current work than in our previous work, we have to make clear decisions. We were saying before that fear and some other things, I'm guessing stress could be an influence. It can all impact our decision-making. So does this all lead us to say that we need to prioritise self-care even more to make sure we keep a clear head to guide these AI agents and guide our fellow humans and everything else in the right direction? Sankalp (57:43) Yeah, yeah, and it brings us back to the meditation point we were talking earlier. It's not just self-care, but we have to be wiser. I mean, obviously, it's good to have wisdom with or without AI, but with AI, it can, again, give us the impression that it knows its things, but ultimately, the values will come from the humans. And already should come from the humans. Like, we don't know what will happen, and if these machines take over, you never know. But the hope is that we decide the values. We decide what is important to us. And for that, we need to be clear on our values. Like it's not, you know, we could sort of ⁓ skim by and not have that clarity, but now that clarity is more important than ever. And that's where, you know, these tools of meditation and building wisdom are quite important because they tell you the true nature of our minds and what our values are if we do not understand our minds and what brings us happiness and well-being. So I think that it's more important now to figure this out and have more and more clarity on where we want these agents to head. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:55) Wisdom naturally ties in with spirituality, religion and philosophy and whichever thought paths guide what we do. So, or any sort of higher purpose. So it seems like if we're going to do better work, we have to, yes, look after our gut health and so on. But from what you're saying, it seems like we need to prioritise our connection with a higher purpose and whatever leads our values. So we're not mindlessly doing whatever the robots tell us to do. Sankalp (59:33) Yeah, yeah, mean, things like, know, we all think we have values, but when investigated, it turns out we don't, and we don't have like good reasons to, it's just, know, just because it's popular doesn't mean it's a value, right? Like most people would say, honesty is good, but if you look at, you know, how many subtle lies we say day to day and this kind of thing, it's actually quite striking. And it's now the time, more than ever, to really understand these values and stand by them. And so, you know, it could be freedom, could be openness, it could be something else. And I think where I stand is, I think it's good if people get it through religion, but I think it's totally also possible to just purely look at the mind as a thing of its own, without any dogma or without where it comes from and just purely derive wisdom from that. Just understanding the causes of our suffering, understanding the causes of happiness, and therefore deriving our values from that understanding through this channel of compassion, because we don't want anyone to suffer, we? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:43) Find wisdom through a channel of compassion. This is such a rounded teaching. Sankalpa, I appreciate how you tie in neuroscience and mindfulness in a way that everybody can understand. As we wind up, is there anything else that you want everybody to stay aware of or act on in the next while? Sankalp (1:01:11) Yeah, in particular. I personally try to have some sort of practice of mindfulness, let's say. I don't do as many formal sittings anymore, although having said that, I just told you that it's been a few weeks, and it has been a lot of those. But I think it's worth knowing, just whatever the method is, and different things might work for different people. It's good to have some amount of contemplation. So it could be journaling, it could be mindfulness, it could be self-care, but just some sort of contemplative practice can be quite powerful. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:52) Contemplative practice. Everybody can do a version of that. Journaling is great, and there are apps that can guide a meditation sitting, or people can go to groups or sessions alone together, whatever gets started. are so many ways. Senkalp, thank you so much for guiding our wisdom. Sankalp (1:02:19) Thank you for having me.

Dr. Froswa' Booker on philanthropy, social capital, conscious leadership, and why your relationships are your most powerful currency. A conversation for changemakers.   🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast Episode: Legacy of Love — Dr Froswa' Booker on Philanthropy, Social Capital & Conscious Leadership EPISODE SUMMARY What does it truly mean to love your neighbour? And what happens when the organisations and leaders who want to help communities haven't actually listened to the people in them? Dr Froswa' Booker has spent decades answering those questions — as a philanthropist, community strategist, executive coach, researcher, and author. In this episode of The Motivate Collective, she brings together the full breadth of her lived experience to explore what conscious leadership, genuine generosity, and meaningful community impact actually look like in practice. From being publicly humiliated by a boss at 24 to building a business with her daughter, from giving away money as a funder to helping organisations become better neighbours, Dr Froswa speaks with the kind of warmth, clarity, and hard-won wisdom that only comes from decades of doing the work. She challenges the scarcity mindset, dismantles the illusion of control, and makes a quietly radical case that your relationships — not your resources — are your most powerful currency. This is a conversation for leaders, givers, community builders, and anyone who wants to leave behind something worth remembering. GUEST BIO Dr Froswa' Booker is a US-based philanthropist, community strategist, executive coach, and author whose work sits at the intersection of social capital, conscious leadership, and community development. Through her small business — which she runs with her daughter — she helps organisations and institutions understand their communities through GIS mapping and assessment, build internal cultures of care, and deploy resources with genuine impact. Her research focuses on social capital and the transformative power of relationships. She has worked as a funder, a nonprofit leader, and a coach to executives pursuing social impact. She is the author of multiple books and a sought-after voice on philanthropy, community co-creation, and what it means to lead with love. WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE [00:26] — How Dr. Froswa' describes her work — and why philanthropy is simply one expression of love [02:30] — Why a broad career built over decades is a gift, not a distraction — and what she tells younger women in her field [04:00] — Nothing is wasted: how early experiences, even painful ones, shape the leader you become [05:14] — The boss who publicly humiliated her at 24 — and the leadership lesson that came from it [08:08] — Young people in the workplace: why anxiety, the need for feedback, and the "two-year-old adult" framing makes sense [13:56] — Figuring out what's real: social media, AI, bite-size information, and the danger of summing people up in five seconds [17:38] — Why long-form conversations matter more than sound bites — and what gets lost in a clip [18:15] — The danger of data without story: the lived experience of a community that rejected a well-intentioned proposal [20:30] — Do leaders judge the people they're trying to help? And how do you move from judgment to genuine understanding? [22:59] — Co-creation vs. control: why deciding for people instead of with them never works [23:35] — Curiosity as the foundation of every meaningful relationship — in community, at work, and in life [25:00] — Faith, love, and what it actually looks like to serve people well [28:11] — Empowerment vs. control: why hoarding information limits you more than it protects you [30:54] — What to do when you suddenly have resources to give — and why writing a cheque is just the beginning [33:43] — Philanthropy is not just money: time, relationships, testimony, and skill are all forms of currency [35:08] — Connecting internationally: the lived experience of a trip to India and why your neighbourhood is the whole globe [36:38] — Scarcity mindset: why it shows up in everything — not just finances — and how to start shifting it [41:11] — The simplest act of leadership available to everyone: just be nice, say hello, and mean it [43:17] — Social capital: the research behind why relationships are your most underestimated asset[45:01] — How to build your network when you're shy, busy, or burned before — starting with one email [48:27] — The right people will be your people — and learning to be okay when some aren't [50:00] — Don't let past trauma block future connection: choosing not to become the leaders who hurt you [53:08] — Leadership as stewardship: every position is a privilege and people remember how you made them feel [54:50] — The bookend practice: how good leaders start and close their day with intention and reflection KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE On the journey, being the point, Dr Froswa's lived experience of decades across wildly different roles — some that felt meaningless at the time — is a direct challenge to the cultural obsession with destination. The skills, relationships, and wisdom she draws on today were built in rooms she didn't want to be in. Nothing was wasted. On leadership as harm — or healing. The lived experience of being humiliated by a threatening boss at 24 didn't produce bitterness — it produced a commitment. Dr Froswa chose to use that moment as a template for everything she would not become. She makes the point clearly: leaders shape people, and the trauma they cause can ripple forward for decades. So can the encouragement. On co-creation and listening, one of the most powerful moments in this episode is the story of a telecommunications company that wanted to bring the internet to a community that, according to the data, needed it. The community said no. The community was right. Dr Froswa's lived experience of philanthropy has taught her that when you don't listen — when you use data without story, when you decide for people rather than with them — you cause harm with good intentions. Co-creation is not a nice-to-have. It's the whole thing. On the scarcity mindset, Dr Froswa reframes scarcity as something far bigger than a financial attitude. Her lived experience of moving from scarcity to abundance thinking changed not just her bank account but her relationships, her opportunities, and the quality of people she attracted into her life. When you hold everything tightly, nothing new can get in. On social capital Dr. Froswa's research is rooted in social capital — the idea that relationships are a form of currency. Her lived experience confirms it at every turn. The person at Starbucks, the LinkedIn connection, the Facebook friend you've never met in person — any of them could be what she calls a "destiny helper." But only if you say hello. On legacy The closing of this conversation is quietly extraordinary. Dr Froswa notes that she has never been to a funeral where anyone talked about someone's job title or bank balance. They talk about how that person made them feel. Every decision you make today is building the legacy you will leave behind. Make it one of love. STANDOUT QUOTES "Keep your head down and do good work. The journey is so important — there are skills and relationships and knowledge that you gain." "I wanted to break that cycle. I wanted to make sure that young people, when I brought them in, I encouraged them and created space for them to grow." "When your hands are closed, and you're holding everything tight, nothing else can get in either." "You don't have a money problem. You have a relationship problem. Get the right relationships, and things will change." "Philanthropy really means the love of mankind. How do you express that love?" "Your neighbourhood is this globe." "I've never been to a funeral where they talk about people's jobs and how much money they had. They talk about relationships and how people made them feel." "Don't let the traumas and triggers of your past block you from having the people you want and desire in your life." "Leave a legacy of love." "You never know when you're entertaining angels." DR. FROSWA'S FRAMEWORK: HOW TO BUILD YOUR NETWORK WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START (Directly from the conversation — practical and immediately usable) Start small. One email. One LinkedIn note. One question: "I'd love to understand your journey." Give people the space to talk about themselves — and listen for connection points, not conversation openers. A 15–20 minute virtual coffee can tell you everything you need to know about whether there's synergy. If there is, go deeper. If there isn't, that's useful information too. When someone is rude or unresponsive — that's intel. Move on without bitterness. They just told you early that they're not your person. Don't allow closed doors to stop you from pursuing the ones that open. DR. FROSWA'S BOOKEND PRACTICE FOR LEADERS Start your day with a meditation, intention, or reflective practice that shapes how you want to show up. Close your day with a second bookend — processing what went well, what didn't, and what needs a course correction. Most leaders only course-correct when something goes badly wrong. These feedback loops — internal and external — allow you to adjust before things break. To lead others well, you must first lead yourself well. RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED 📚 Dr Froswa' Booker's books — available wherever books are sold (search Dr Froswa' Booker) 🌐 Learn more about Dr Froswa's work in philanthropy, community strategy, and executive coaching via her website CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE 🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com TAGS / CATEGORIES Philanthropy | Conscious Leadership | Social Capital | Community Development | Personal Development | Relationships | Scarcity vs Abundance | Legacy | Giving | Purpose | Empowerment | Emotional Intelligence | Wellness | Executive Coaching | Human-Centred Growth Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson   Transcript   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01) Roswell, welcome to the podcast. Dr Froswa' Booker (00:05) Thank you for having me, Melanie. I'm so excited to be here. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:09) It's a delight. I saw a bit about what you do, and this is a very special form of self-care, in my opinion, giving back to others, and you have done amazing work. I hope you can explain to everybody how you describe what you do. Dr Froswa' Booker (00:26) Thank you. Wow, I do a number of things. Philanthropy being one expression of love that I get to do every day. And so I have a small business where my daughter works for me. And we do a couple of things. We work in communities and helping organizations and institutions think about how they're better neighbors. So a number of groups want to do philanthropy and have ideas, but they may not always know how to do that. And so we go in and do assessments and use a lot of GIS mapping and things like that to help them understand their neighborhoods and the communities they're in, and then make recommendations and how they can deploy resources to their communities. And typically these are areas that they may not be as familiar with, and how to work with nonprofits and work with various communities and bring them to the table and do the work. But out of that, we started discovering that sometimes they had organisational culture problems where They're not nice to each other. They don't like each other in their workplace. And it's like, how do you want to work with people in community? And you don't like each other very well. And so we do a lot of work in helping them build relationships internally and building a culture around being a good neighbor so they can do it externally. And the last piece of the work is really about coaching leaders and being an executive coach to leaders who are trying to do a social impact and work in community. So I get to do that and I'm an author. And then there's the philanthropy piece where I've worked as a funder and giving money before. And then after I left that role, I started figuring out ways to help support folks in making things happen in the community. So that's a little bit of the gamut of stuff I get to do. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:30) It's so broad. Are you seeing that having a broad spectrum of things you do in your career in one phase of life, did you find that that is better for you and for everybody, instead of specialising in just one area? Dr Froswa' Booker (02:46) Because I'm a little bit more seasoned. I've been able to do a number of things throughout my career. And what's happened now is it's become so broad because there's been so much time in doing this work in different spaces. And so I say to my younger sisters in this space, keep your head down and do good work. You know, I think so often we always focus on the destination and not recognising that the journey is so important because there are skills and relationships and knowledge that you gain. And so being able to just do good work and enjoy what you're doing opens up a pathway for you when you get to be a little bit older with some white hair like me that you get to be able to do some things that are really creative and unique. And I'd say you can't do that young, but all of what I get to do has been kind of the accumulation of all these years, decades of just doing some very unique things. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:53) You are bringing together bits and pieces from everything you did over the years to then draw upon all of it. Dr Froswa' Booker (04:00) Yes, Yes, it's not, and it hasn't been wasted. I remember there were certain things early in my career that I was like, why am I doing this? I need a check. I don't really care about this. And I can see now how those experiences shaped me. It shapes the way that I show up and how I treat people. And so I didn't think 30 years ago, some of that stuff had any value, where I can see now it's very important. And it has allowed me to be the kind of leader. I had some leaders very young in my career. Some were decent, and some were really good. I had others who were like trash. They taught me some things, and they showed me the kind of leader I did not want to be. And so because of that, you know, and at the time I was like, what am I doing? Why am I going through this? I get it now because now I'm able to be a different kind of leader. And I hope people don't have to have those experiences, but at least for me, those experiences shaped me and helped me to be a better person and lead and show up in community very differently. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:11) What sorts of experiences felt a bit more meaningful later on? Dr Froswa' Booker (05:14) you I was like, you're gonna ask me about what happened? There had been several, but I had an experience with a boss who was very threatened when I was young in my career. I came in, and I'm just out of my master's program at that point. I'm like 24, 25 and initially I thought she was going to mentor me. You know, I looked up to this person, thought she was going to be amazing, and there were things that she did that just were very harmful to me and painful. I remember one day being in a staff meeting, and she read off my whole job description and told another colleague, who's like an admin, that she was going to do my job. And I was just sitting there going, my God, what do I do? What is it that you expect me to do? You've given her everything that I'm supposed to do. And I remember that being so painful. And I didn't stay very long after that because I recognised I was being put in a position where you wanted me to come to work every day and do nothing, then say I was doing nothing. And what that situation taught me was several things. As a leader, there are ways to talk to people, and you have to check your ego. And I think sometimes people easily get threatened by youth and folks who are talented. And not to say that I was perfect by any means, but... I had an expectation that you were going to guide me, and if there was some challenge that you may have had, you should have had a conversation instead of doing it that way. So for me, I don't have bitterness. It had taught me that when I got in a position of leadership, how do I make sure that I'm stewarding young people well? Because my actions could actually cause trauma for them later on, and they could end up being harmful leaders too, because what they experienced they think is okay. And so I wanted to break that cycle, and I did. I wanted to make sure that there were younger people that when I brought them in and they were brilliant and talented and go-getters that I encouraged them and created space for them to grow versus punishing them because my ego got threatened or I felt like they're gonna take my job. Take it, I don't care. It also helped me to move from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset of there's so much there and if you take my job, great. That means there's something bigger and better for me to do. I want you to have it. So by, you know, putting myself in a box, I would limit my own possibilities. And I didn't want to do that. And I definitely didn't want to do it for someone else. And that's what that experience taught me. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:08) It's a very difficult moment when perhaps we cling on to the roles that we do and we cling on to what we know with how to do something and it takes a lot of letting go. What she was doing was so far beyond that, and that was horrible. can tell you I had moments early in my career where I knew, okay, it was very clear someone was doing maneuvers, and sometimes it was outright humiliating. We can, it's amazing. And then we try to do the right thing for the next generations. I wonder if you've seen anyone from the younger generations feeling a bit extra sensitive, extra nervous. Dr. Froswa' Booker (08:44) Yes. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:06) because I saw someone last year who was constantly wondering, is this thing something against me? Is this thing an opinion? And everything was anxious. And especially it was around the time when there was a lot of political stuff going on in the world. And do you see any young people getting very anxious and needing a bit of reassurance? Dr Froswa' Booker (09:28) Yeah. Absolutely. Work is frightening. I mean, if you're honest, it's like, I need this money to be able to live on. And to some degree, you have control of my life. That's terrifying when you're 20-something years old, and you've been accustomed to mom and dad doing things for you. And even though they may not do everything you want, you still are able for the most part to exist. And then you move into this adulting. It's terrifying to be in situations where I don't know what my boss wants. So I'm learning you. Never met you in my life. I don't know what expectations you have. You say one thing, you do something totally different than what you say. It would cause angst and allow you to have this experience of anxiousness. So one of the things I always say to people that are managing folks is communication is going to be your best friend. You have to communicate and over-communicate because I don't know you, and as soon as I'm learning you, you're learning me. I'm learning this role. I'm learning the co-workers That's a lot of information for someone to take in who doesn't have much experience in the world my ex-husband used to say when my daughter turned like 20 a couple years ago He said she's a two-year-old adult And I would always go that that's very true. She hasn't had a lot of experience being an adult. She's had more experience being a child And so then I have this expectation for you to show up and know everything. They don't. So I think we have to really begin to look at how we mentor and how we communicate and give expectations and feedback. Older generations, and data shows this, didn't need the kind of feedback. And the ways that you're seeing younger people who are used to instantaneous information, they're always getting feedback. They need feedback more than my generation did. You Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:34) explaining it. This is why I love the podcast. This is joining dots because I was, and I'll be so kind in this moment, I was in community guiding someone in a community group and I wasn't giving a detailed set of guidance for a very simple administrative function instantly, and that person assumed that meant she was being shoved out, and it really wasn't like that. I was stretched thin. And if you are saying that younger people now, they just, they expect the answers now. It's that's the shift. We probably, we worked at a different pace. We're not slow, but we didn't have that instant gratification as much. Dr. Froswa' Booker (12:17) Yes. Yes! No, you didn't have, and I think about this, when I was growing up, there was no internet, you know, and my daughter makes fun that I knew Moses. I was like, I'm not that old. But, you know, I'm like, my God, but I didn't have internet, and I definitely didn't have social media. I can only imagine how stressful I would be with the constant feedback if I like something or there's a heart on something, and some kind of emoji expression. There are all these opportunities to engage. That would have driven me nuts at 17 years old. I look at these young people now, I'm like, you're brilliant. You have so much information that's coming at you, and they're having to decipher what it means, and then add on top of that AI. So now I'm not only having to decipher this information, I got to figure out if it's real or not. And so now I go into the workplace and I got to do the same thing with people. Are you who you say you are? Are you just saying this because you have to say this? Do you mean this? So you're trying to really interpret all of this information and expressions that people have and what they're saying. And I'm learning, you know, even people make meaning differently. So we may say the same word, but you may have a very different meaning behind that word than what I do. So now we've got a problem. That's a lot to try to manage at 20, 25 years old. It's a lot to manage at my age, in my fifties. I'm like, what, say that again. What do you mean? I don't know what that means. It's a lot. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:56) You said people are trying to figure out what is real. I think that has been going on for a long time because of what social media turned into. And it brings us together. I mean, you found this podcast on social media, and we can connect with amazing people. I was able to see your website, and I loved how summarised it was. Honestly, sometimes people have so much info I need to ask AI, can you just give me one page of what this person's about? Have had it all? Dr Froswa' Booker (14:04) Yes, yes. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:26) New, clear lists, this is what you do. But that's the upside. But the flip side is I think it has been a long time. At this point, it has been what? More than a decade of people having filters. Photoshop was being used before then; everybody was. I remember the moment when suddenly anyone could get an app on their phone that could totally filter them, and you would be able to put someone into a photo, and you didn't wonder what was real, but beyond just the image of things. I mean, you're looking at philanthropy and community as well as corporate culture and in all of those spaces, let's face it, some people have felt a bit of, a bit of uncertainty with the world. Some Americans have been telling me that politics is a bit of a handful right now. And in Australia, in Australia, I'm seeing these headlines about how the oil costs and conflicts overseas could affect the prices of things. So people are already anxious, but then just looking at wondering whether something is, whether a person is real or not. Some people look at what is online, and they think that is what there is. Some people look at me, and they think whatever picture they show, they Dr Froswa' Booker (15:49) Yes. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:53) Whatever picture they saw, that's what there is when I'm juggling so much that nobody is ever going to see. Do you find that as well, that people don't realise there's more going on than what they see on their screens? Dr Froswa' Booker (16:08) Absolutely, because we live in a world that's very surface. I think that we are in spaces where, again, information is coming to you in bite-sized. So you have to recognise that. People look at each other that way. It's bite-sized. you're the sum of everything that I see. That's terrifying. Because then what we do is we put people in a box and believe that all that they are is this one facet of what I've seen. And that's not fair. So then it's easy for me to summarise someone very quickly because of a sound bite. And we're watching that, you know, in social media, someone says one little thing taken out of context and without the whole show, you know, or cancelling people and being angry with them, and because they haven't taken the time to go, let me dig. And so I think we're in a very precarious environment right now because we're not taking the time to get to know each other. And I often say to people when I'm training them that you can advocate for someone when you're proximate to them. But if I'm not proximate and I'm just watching a clip of you, I can make a decision about who you are, and I don't like you, and you're a horrible person. And we do that in five seconds of seeing someone, already sum them up. It's a very dangerous thing. And so then we do that in our relationships where we sum up people, and we don't give them the opportunity to be human. It's not fair. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:38) Absolutely. That's part of why I like the longer conversations of the podcast, but also any form of long conversation. You need more than the 30 seconds. Let's face it. There's an upside. It's handy if you only have a quick moment to glance at your favourite people online and say, okay, they're talking about this and only have a moment, but it's not going to go deeper, and the human conversations, it's crucial. Dr Froswa' Booker (17:49) Yes. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:07) Are you seeing that and anything else as a factor in people connecting with communities that are in need? Dr Froswa' Booker (18:15) Yeah, because it's so easy to just look at a sound bite or data. And not that data is bad, but when data doesn't match the stories of people in community, we're reducing people to numbers. And so that's very dangerous too. It's important that we start talking to people and listening to their story. I often tell this story about years ago, I was working for an organization and I was giving out money and community on their behalf. And this particular community didn't have a lot of internet. So that was a big challenge for kids getting their homework done and having access to resources. And so there was a telecommunications provider who came and said, I want to do internet in your community. Now data said they needed it. But I bring, you know, some community people together, and the whole time while this gentleman is talking, they're on their phones. And I'm horrified because I'm like, being so rude. Why are they doing that? And I knew them to know something was up and they're researching what he's saying. And they looked at him, and they said, no, we don't want this. I'm going, but data said this is what you need. And they're going, no, this isn't what we want. And so I remember going to the city council person and saying, this is a great proposal. would help this community. And they said to me, Francois, if you knew what they were proposing, It doesn't look the same in a more affluent community. This is harmful. So sometimes in our desire to do good, because we don't listen to people and talk to them and ask them what they want, we'll only go with the data and then go, well, that's what you need. And then I can get angry and go, well, I'm trying to help you when I haven't really listened to you and figured out what it is that you need. And I think too often in communities, we do that to people, especially when we're not proximate to them, and we're not listening to them. We can make judgments and stereotypes and then do things and get mad when they don't like it and go, well, I thought I was helping you. And they're going, but we didn't ask for your help. That's not what we wanted. No one asked us. So what I try to get people to do is to be proximate, to listen, and not just use data, but use the stories. And when those two come together, we got magic. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:30) This is so good. It's time for the juicy question. Looking at communities that need help. Have you seen some leaders judging? I'll just come out and say it. Do some people judge the situations people are in, and how do you guide people to reach real understanding and a common ground? Dr Froswa' Booker (20:55) That's good. That's very good. It goes back to getting people proximate. Couple of things. It's helping people move from this either-or concept because so often in communities we go, it's either this or it's that. And it's really multiple realities that exist. And it's helping people understand their systems and structures that are in place that create the environments that people are in. And quite often, what you're seeing is the response to those environments that they had nothing to do with. So we blame them for their condition, but we don't pay attention to laws and policies and ordinances and things that have been created that they weren't included in making decisions for, that they weren't given the opportunity to speak into, and yet they're living the result of bad policies and decisions. So I think it's important to help people when they are working in community to understand history to understand social cultural context, because then you're able to go, now it makes sense. But too often, people look at the result of what they're seeing in the here and now and not understand the process that allowed this community or this group to be where they are. So then we'll make a judgment and blame people and not recognise there is this huge picture, this tapestry that's been created that we're not taking into account. And so what I try to help people do is let's step back before we make any program, spend any money, and let's get a better understanding of why this is what it is. And let's ask them what they want, because co-creation is important. And too often, we make decisions for people, and then when they don't like it, we're mad, versus saying, how do we co-create together? I have an idea. Does this match what you want? And again, when we can grow and create together, then we can do some very impactful work. But when people come in and think that they can control and dominate, that never works. It hasn't. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:59) Absolutely. The dominating. That's not how to listen. And I can share with you that as I've been forming a community to expand beyond this podcast, it has been about listening and asking what people actually want. So this can translate beyond philanthropy for those who are listening to this, and they are doing other forms of work. Dr Froswa' Booker (23:21) Yes Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:27) Asking questions can be such a simple first step. Do you find that asking questions will solve almost anything? Dr Froswa' Booker (23:35) It's leaning into curiosity. And I don't think people do enough of that. know, one of the things that sounds so simple, but it's been mind-blowing to me is that, you know, when you're dating, part of what develops intimacy is curiosity. It's asking, what do you like to eat? Do you like these movies? Where would you like to go for dinner? And that curiosity builds something because you're like, oh, now I know this about a person. If we're going to build deep relationships with people and if we're going to make the happen. It requires us to have this curiosity with people and it doesn't just mean in the intimate relationships and our professional relationships. There's intimacy that you have with people of going, I know my co-worker. She doesn't typically act like this, but I know her well enough to know something is wrong. But until you ask those questions and get to know them, you're not able to advocate for them and even empathise with them, let alone have sympathy. So how do we begin to start leaning into this idea of ask questions? There's nothing wrong with that because we don't have all the answers. And that's been something for me, even in my faith walk, that I find that I'm doing more of is even asking those kinds of questions because you would be the answers that you get when you just not just ask but listen. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:57) You're a faith, what does that involve? Dr Froswa Booker (25:00) I am a Christian, and I didn't have a very different lens than a lot of people do, in how I see things. But that is what guides me and how I do things. I am really big on this idea of love and what it means to truly love people, even when I don't always agree with you. And what I see so often today is people use that title in a way that is not honouring of what it really means. And when we really look at what it is rooted in, and what Christ came to do. It's very different than the way it's expressed now. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:40) What's the difference? Dr Froswa' Booker (25:42) I think the difference is people now have more of a, not everyone, but there are people who use it to weaponise it against other people. I think there are people who are more willing to defend empire and institutions than they are willing to love the people that Christ came for. And it's very easy to marginalise other people when they're different and to then oppress them using those same beliefs that totally go against what you're doing. And so that for me is where I'm watching so much, especially here in the US, where people are using that. And it is a way to oppress and control. and not really do it. And I'm often saying to people, if you really read this book and understand what it says, you would treat people very differently. But they cherry-pick what they want to, then use it to harm other people. And that's not what it's for. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:51) Protecting institutions. That happens in so many forms. Dr Froswa' Booker (26:55) That's what. Yes, and it is to protect the ability to have power, and it is to protect the ability to control others. And that's very problematic. It's very problematic. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:11) That's. Dr Froswa' Booker (27:12) Yeah, it's very problematic because what it says to me is that God needs us to do his work when God, in my opinion, is God and is so vast and so big that God can take care of God. God uses us. It's a privileged to be the hands and feet of God and to serve others. But how dare I think that I am the only person that has the interpretation of who God is. I'm not. And the idea that other people believe that I am the one that has this message and I'm the only one, wow. And not to believe that God uses people ⁓ and not just one. And that even in the model of Christ, Christ not just came and talked, alone he used and worked with other people and discipled other people who were very different than who he was. I think we have a template of what goodness looks like. People aren't using that template. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:11) The opposite of control could possibly be empowerment. Let me know if you agree. remember listening to all that, it reminds me of the self-sufficiency that came from other thoughts like Gandhi and looking at supporting communities and even people within organisations, anyone looking at Leading by supporting, is this tying in with the thought that if people are really going to achieve something, then it's not about one person controlling everybody, it's about enabling everybody else to do what they need to do. Dr. Froswa' Booker (29:01) Yeah, it's, when I control, I limit. And I don't think people understand that. I remember very early in my career, I used to send out these emails that would help people. And the way the emails were worded, they would have to come back to me to get the information. And in the beginning, that felt good. It was like, yeah, people are coming to me, huh? And then it became exhausting because at that point I became the person that everybody was like, well, let me go to her, let me go to her. And I wasn't empowering them. to be able to realise you can go and call that person. You don't need me to do that for you. And so sometimes people do that because they want dependence and reliance. But what you fail to realise in doing that is that your capacity is then limited because everybody's dependent on you. What does it look like when you go? I'm going to help you do this and teach you how to do it. And people think that they lose power and control in doing that. And the reality is you don't. You actually gain more. because then people look at you and go, I was able to get that from this person. I wasn't hoarding the information anymore. I was going here, call them, you do whatever you need to do. Good luck, don't call me. And it didn't diminish what I was doing. It actually grew it because people started seeing me as a resource and that I was willing to be fluid and give them the information without me hoarding it and feeling like, no, I have to be the gatekeeper. I don't think people realise that when you give, your hands are open. And so what you don't understand is now you're able to receive because your hands can actually get it. But when your hands are closed, and my grandmother used to say this all the time, when your hands are closed, and your tight fist, and you're holding everything like this, you're keeping it in, but nothing else can get in either. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:54) That is wisdom. I want to pivot to another big question. I'm going to trust you would have met some people who accumulate or find suddenly extreme resources and they are wondering, okay, I don't need all of this. Where should I send some of it so someone else can benefit from it? What do you normally say to people who are in that position? Dr Froswa' Booker (31:23) I want to find out what their passion is. I think it's important to put your money in spaces that you have some connection to. I was talking to a friend before I got on a call with you, and she's getting ready to ask for funding for a project. And one of the things that I was saying to her is, what is the invitation that you feel you're being pulled to? And I think that's a thing for people with wealth, is what is the invitation that you feel that you want to be able to impact? So I start with passion. I want to know what drives you. I want to know what keeps you up at night. What are the problems that you really want to solve for? And then what does success look like for you in a community? What is it that you would be happy with? And if they say it's education, I want to see kids graduate because that's what happened to me was I was able to go to school because then mine is then that's what we focus on, because otherwise you're not going to have a sense of fulfilment or investment if you're just writing a check. But if we're able to help you do something that's meaningful and impactful, and help you identify an organisation that meets that need, and build the relationship. Because to me, funding shouldn't be just writing a check. That happens. There's nothing wrong with that. But at some point, there needs to be intimacy. You need to know this organisation. It should be more than just giving your money. It should be you giving your relationships, giving your time, that you're volunteering, that you are so invested, that you bring your community around that. That's when training transformation happens. But if I'm just writing a check and I go back to bed and I don't know what you're doing with it, I don't know the staff, I don't know the people that you're serving, then I don't really get to be a part of the impact. I just get to write something and then wash my hands of it and act as if I have no responsibility. I want you to feel some responsibility and use your check, your time, your talent. All of those things, your testimony to make an impact. That's important. And I want people to understand, too, that you might not be a wealthy person with all this money. You still have something to give. And philanthropy doesn't always mean writing a check. Philanthropy really means the love of mankind. So how do you express that love? That's using your time to go volunteer. That's using your wisdom and your skills to go and do skill-based volunteering. That may be that you bring relationships along who can help. There are ways that you can still support the community without having to write a check. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:05) Anyone can give and support in some way. Dr Froswa' Booker (34:09) Yes, always. We all have something to offer. Even if it's just you telling your own personal story and saying to a person who's going through a hard time, I identify, I've been through that. Let me tell you how I got through it. So even your testimony is powerful in helping people. And I think we get so caught up with the money and recognising that there are so many other forms of currency that can make a difference. And your relationships are part of that. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:39) Relationships with people that is such an impact on everything, the relationships. And I trust that there's a balance that's needed because you are seeing that when people connect with the groups around them, the locals, then that is very connected. Have you seen people connecting internationally and networking beyond their own backyards as well? Dr Froswa Booker (35:08) Absolutely. I went to India several years ago. It was one of the most powerful experiences I had. And there is a family that's in India that I still keep in contact with. And they will ask for things. They would come over to the States periodically. They haven't been in a while. But it was such a gift to me to be there with them and then to continue the relationship and talk about ways that we can support the work that they're doing there. Yes, you know, the internet is, as much as it has its problems, it's also a gift because you get an opportunity to connect to people like I'm doing with you, that you get to connect to people that are all over the world. What an opportunity to be able to learn from each other and to share stories and experiences. So I encourage people that being a neighbour doesn't always mean just in your backyard. Your neighbourhood is this globe. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:09) Almost everything you have said is a quote. They used to call it tweetables, things like that. I just wanted to go and share all of these little quotes, but it's all so true. And connecting, this is counter-cultural these days. I have to acknowledge this because we know we live in individualistic societies, and people are just thinking about themselves, partly out of perhaps a survival instinct, perhaps out of just habit. And some now call it scarcity mindset. How do you encourage people who are maybe stretched thin, be it with more things than their money, and they need to see that they can gain more in life if they bring service into their day. Dr Froswa' Booker (37:05) We were just talking about this earlier that your generosity is also connected to what your life looks like, too. And I don't think people see the correlation that when you are generous, even with the little that you have, it opens up doors and possibilities for you to get more. It's just, there is something about reciprocity. So if I have scarcity and I see the world that way, I'm going to experience more of that. And if I begin to see, even though I might be limited today in my bank account, but I begin to have this mindset of abundance, and I begin to see relationships as good Because when you have a scarcity mindset, it's not just money. You don't trust people. You look at everything as problematic. So it shows up. I think we only see it as money. It shows up in everything. And you tend to be around other people who are scarce in what they have and how they see the world. So then you're rehashing the same kind of information. I'm not telling you ways to get abundance because I have a scarcity mindset. I don't want you to have more than I do. So it shows up in everything that you do. It's helping people move to this idea that there's enough out here for people not to be greedy and try to dominate the world. That's a whole other conversation. But for those of us who just want to live and be comfortable, it can exist, and it can happen. So when I am willing to make sure that you're good, I'm going to be good in doing that. And I think sometimes people are pushed to be so insular. And that too is, in my opinion, a control issue. Because the more I make you think they're taking your jobs, they're harming you, we got to watch out for these people, the more that you begin to start holding on to everything and you won't change, you will get so afraid and you live in this fear-based way of thinking that nothing can come in for you, then it's easy to control you when I get you to that place. It's helping people understand that when we begin to start seeing people as neighbours, that we're all a part of this creation story, and that there is purpose, and that when you fulfil your purpose, that opens up the opportunity for me to walk in mine. But if I'm not fulfilling mine and you're not fulfilling yours, what's going to happen? Nothing. We're all going to suffer. It's moving from that way of thinking to recognising that we've been given this opportunity. to be here on this planet together. Either we're going to die and kill it, which is what looks like we're doing, or we're going to value what we have and value each other and see that the challenges we face are not the kinds of challenges that can't be solved. Every challenge we have, there's a person who is a solution or a group of people. And when we begin to start seeing that, our worlds will look so different. I tell all my nonprofits, you don't have a money problem. I say you have a relationship problem. You get the right relationships, things will change. And so what I would say to people who are dealing with scarcity, start changing your mindset about your relationships, about what you speak. If you speak that there is horrible things and it's always bad, you're going to see more of that. But when you look for the good and look for the signs and wonders and miracles that are around you, watch what will begin to happen. And with the little that you have, it will grow because you're growing, and you'll bring in relationships and resources that will grow what you have. That's what I hope people will start to do. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:46) Look for the opportunities that are around us. Dr. Froswa' Booker (40:48) Yes, and they exist. You never know. My mother says this all the time. You never know when you're entertaining angels. And sometimes we are so busy just doing our work that we miss the opportunity to even smile and say hello to someone. And that person could be the solution of what you're going through. But because we're so focused inward, we miss so much. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:11) Reach out. Part of that. Be nice. Be nice. Be nice. That's very simple. Simply be nice. Anyone can do that. Dr Froswa' Booker (41:14) Be nice. Just be nice. Be nice. It's easy. Say hello to people. Ask people how they're doing and mean it. I mean, it's the little bitty things that we can do to make this place better, and our lives will get better when we are invested in other people as well as ourselves. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:41) The saying hello and having a conversation that, in my head, guides me to look up from this screen and interact with the people around us. Have you seen that as a part of it? Dr Froswa Booker (41:52) Yes. absolutely. It's interesting to me because I'll have people come up to me who say, you're my Facebook friend. And I'm thinking to myself, my, I don't know them, but they know me. And it's made me more aware of, and not that I've got 600,000 Facebook friends, I'm not that person, but it's made me more aware that ⁓ we're being watched sometimes when we're not even paying attention. And I'm more keenly aware of how I show up in spaces that I want to be a person that if I say that I'm a person who loves, then I have to have a life that looks like that too. And it's just as simple as, you know, when you see people like that person who did me and said, you're my Facebook friend, I could have easily gone, I don't know you. Wow, what kind of impression that would have left with her versus me going, my goodness, it's so great to meet you. Tell me about you and what you're doing. And I built a relationship out of that, and I gained a friend out of that, and someone that I was able to go deeper with and do things with. You miss out sometimes in our busyness. We miss out on so many opportunities that could change our lives, that maybe the person that you're meeting at Starbucks or whatever place you go to could actually be a destiny helper. But if you're too busy, you miss out on an opportunity for someone who could change your life. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:17) Absolutely. Have the courage and confidence to say hello to anyone and connect with people. I can relate to that feeling of realising, okay, someone has seen me online. My equivalent was a few months ago, someone messaged me on Instagram and said that he had seen me at the public pool, but he wasn't sure, he thought it was probably me and then saw me on Instagram, and I don't have a lot of people on Instagram right now. And I thought, I don't know this person, and I'm inspired by what you are saying to just go with it, and okay, if people are reaching out, then it takes a lot of openness, and it goes in any direction. I've reached out to some people online, and the magic and the encouragement that comes from just a simple chat, yes, online, but also in person, showing up, meeting up with people, just seeing everybody. Dr. Froswa' Booker (44:17) Yes. Yes. Yes, and it's a term called social capital, which is what my research is based on. I don't think we realise the power of our relationships. It is a form of currency. You know, you have no idea of the networks that people are connected to. And if you don't talk to them, you'll never know that. And so there is power and just saying hello, because that person could transform your life or be your best friend or your partner. I mean, it could be anything, the gamut of things. But when we're too busy or afraid, we lose out. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:01) Absolutely. It's courage. I'm going to guess the solution is to just go and do it. If someone is really feeling shy, let's address the shyness. If someone out there is feeling very shy, what are your words of encouragement? Just go out and make it happen. Dr Froswa' Booker (45:04) Yes. Yes! Start with the email. I remember during the pandemic, I met so many people from other countries just through LinkedIn. And we would do these virtual coffees. It was the coolest thing. And it would be 15, 20 minutes, but I would have these powerful conversations. And in that 15 to 20 minutes, I could determine if there was synergy. Now, know that everybody you meet, you're not going to have a relationship with. Some of them are not a part of your path, and that's OK, but they could be connected to someone who is. And so start small, do an email, do a note on LinkedIn and go, hey, I'd love to get to know you. I just want to find out more about you and do a 15- 20 minute call, just get to know you. And if they're vibing with you, then you go, okay, maybe I want to set up more time to get to know you. Are you going that? Yeah, they're not it and be okay with that. And that's fine, because again, everybody that you meet might not be your person. But through that process, you could meet some people that can help you with so many different things. So I encourage, start small with something like that and just send a note and go, hey. Just want to get to know you, learn more about how did you end up in this career path? I want to understand your journey. And what I've learned is people love to talk about themselves. So give them the space to do that. And then as you're listening, don't listen to figure out ways of what you're going to say. Listen to find out opportunities for connection. That's what you're listening for. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:45) It's the common ground. Dr Froswa' Booker (46:47) Yes! Yes, that's it! Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:50) It really is. That's a great idea. The short little chunk of time that is significant in this day and age. It doesn't have to be a lot of time. And the start with an email idea, that's awesome. Pop a note over to anyone, and it doesn't have to... Even being brief can be more valuable, especially in these busy times. So it can be one sentence, right? Dr Froswa' Booker (47:18) Yes. Yeah, I just want to know you, you know, and especially for people that you know are busy. Tell me more about your journey. I'd love to understand more about your journey. I'm interested in this kind of work, or I'm interested in being an author, and I just want to understand more. And people typically are willing to do that. And if they say I can't meet, you can even ask, well, can we correspond through email? And I send you questions and respond. I've had people do that, too, because we couldn't work our schedules out. Folks are willing to help more often than not. And when you meet those who don't want to help, don't allow that closed door to stop you from pursuing those who do. Because that person just let you know very early, they're not your person. And that's OK. You don't want to spend a lot of time and investment with someone who later on is going to prove to be someone that's not of character. So if they're being mean up front, you go, thank you. Because that's intel that I now take and go, I know what to do with that. I'm going to leave you alone. But don't allow people who are busy or rude to stop you from building a network of people who could really support your dreams and aspirations. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:27) The right people will be your people, and it doesn't have to be everybody. Dr Froswa' Booker (48:32) No, it won't be. And be okay with that because there are gonna be people who are not kind. We live in a world with a lot of people that are not kind right now. But I think we focus so much on those who are the negative ones that we don't realise there are so many good, kind, wonderful human beings that are walking the earth every single day that we could build relationships with and do good things together. So what I wanna encourage people to do is take those small steps to building your tribe of people who are good people. I'm so blessed because I have an amazing group of friends. And very early, it was easy for me to be negative because I'd had so many experiences that were not very good. And so because of that, it was easy to go, I'm going to close off because people are mean. And when I changed my view of myself and changed my view of other people, I got blessed with this amazing tribe of women and men who are just phenomenal, young and older, who are just so good to me. And it took time to get to that place. But I want folks to know, don't allow the traumas and the triggers of your past block you from having the people that you want and desire in your life. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:47) Don't let past experiences prevent us from greater opportunities in the future. Dr Froswa' Booker (49:53) Yes, Yes, there are lessons. And I think what we have to be aware of is that one, I don't believe anything that happens in life is wasted. There are horrible things that happen to people, but I've seen people who've had some horrible experiences turn those things into good. So even though we've had very painful experiences, I shared one early on in our conversation, I couldn't allow that to stop me from building relationships and advancing my life. I could have easily allowed that to just be a roadblock, and I got stuck; you can't. And so you're going to have those experiences. For me, it was learning the lesson of, and I often see people as reflections. So when I meet good people, it's, oh, that's a reflection of me. When I meet people are not so good, they're a reflection as well of what I could become. And so always looking at people and seeing that there's something to learn in every interaction and experience that you have. And for the negative ones that I've had, it's not that I allow myself to be a doormat and continue to stay in those relationships. If they're not good, you shouldn't be in those. You deserve people who treat you well and with dignity and kindness. But even in those interactions, those things have helped me to be the person that I wanted to be and not be like them. I tell a story about when I was very young in my career, there was a lady here. She's no longer alive. She was very well known. And I met her at an event. And I was sitting at the registration table. And I said her name wrong. And she embarrassed me in front of everyone. It just went off on me because I said her name incorrectly. And I apologise. But I was so hurt that this well-regarded leader would treat me that way. The lesson that I took away from that was that I could be that way when I get older. I could become that mean person where there's this young woman here who's admiring me, and I could do something that could harm her by the way I talk to her. And it made me realise then and there, I didn't want to be that kind of woman. And I've fought to make sure that I'm not that kind of person to anyone. And so I could have easily looked at that situation and said, well, all of those people are like that. I'm not going to talk to women who are in those kinds of positions because she is, you know, probably just like the rest of them. And it made me realise, no, she was just crazy. That doesn't mean that everyone who is in a similar position was like that. She was just a mean lady. It gave me an opportunity to see the reflection of what possibility could be. And I just made the decision not to be that kind of woman. And so don't let those bad experiences stop you because they happen. They don't have to define you. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:47) It doesn't define you. That is a massive encouragement. It means so much because we can be on either side of it. And what I'm learning from you is that sometimes we need to remember not to take for granted the positions we are in. Dr Froswa' Booker (53:08) Yes, yes. It's a gift when you're given any position, whether it's one that you're running the company or even if you're the person that's cleaning the building every night, there's value in everything that we do and in every person. And if you're given the opportunity to be in leadership and to manage and direct people's lives, you're shepherding people, you're stewarding them, and you have an impact on who they become. Think about it. If you go back in your career and look at all of the leaders and teachers you have had. You don't really remember the mediocre ones. You don't. You're like, she was okay, teacher. You remember the ones who were really good or the ones who were really bad. And those people shape you. And so you definitely don't want to fall in the mediocre category, where people don't even remember your name. They're like, she taught me. I don't even remember her. You did nothing. You just showed up. You don't want to be that person. But you definitely don't want to be the memory that they have that's a trigger or the trauma that they now have to get therapy for because you were so mean to them. I would like to be remembered for being the person that made a difference in people's lives. And think about this, when you go to a funeral, I've never been to a funeral where they talk about people's jobs and how much money they had. They talk about relationships and how people made them feel. So what we do every day is we're building legacy. And that's going to be so important to recognise that every single day, the decisions that you make are leading up to the legacy that you're going to leave behind. Just make good decisions and leave a legacy of love. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:50) Legacy of love. Do you find that self-care and finding time for a contemplation is a step in leadership that can support people? Dr Froswa' Booker (55:04) It's required if you're going to be a good leader. I don't think a lot of leaders spend time reflecting. And I call it bookends, where you start your day with a meditation or set an intention. But you have to shape your day and guide what you want your day to look like. And that looks different for a lot of people, but having that practice is important. And then I think you need another bookend to close your day of processing and reflecting over your day, looking at what went well, what didn't go so well. Because then, you can make course corrections. Typically, most leaders only make course corrections when something is bad. But if you create the space in your life for these feedback loops from yourself and other people, you can course-correct a lot quicker. So I think it's important that if you're going to lead well, you've got to lead yourself well.  

What if the most powerful currency in business isn't money — it's generosity? In this conversation, Melanie sits down with Suela Pirushi, Albanian-born founder and CEO of the Milestone Hub, author of The Business Currency is Love, UN Women UK Ambassador, and PhD candidate in Epistemic Leadership and Human-AI Collaboration. Suela has worked across the World Bank, the Ministry of Justice, NGO management, and a decade in B2B commercial partnerships in the UK — and through all of it, one truth has remained constant: business is fundamentally human. What we explore in this episode: Suela opens by sharing her remarkable journey from post-communist Albania to the UK, living and studying across Bulgaria, Germany, Italy, and beyond — a life of never quite fitting in that ultimately shaped her as an expert in cultural nuance and cross-border relationship building. She introduces her philosophy that every successful business must invest in trust, relationships, and generosity — giving before gaining. It's not just a nice idea; she traces how these principles have played out across corporate roles, World Bank projects, NGO leadership, and now her own consultancy. The conversation turns to AI and the fear many professionals feel about what it means for their futures. Suela reframes it entirely: AI frees us up for the things that matter most — human connection, partnership, and trust. As someone writing a PhD on human-AI collaboration, she speaks with rare authority on both the opportunity and the responsibility. They also discuss the power of storytelling over statistics in business; why legacy matters more than ROI metrics; how to start a business from scratch using only your existing skills; the importance of going global rather than staying local; and how to navigate authentic online presence without oversharing. Suela closes with three lessons every business owner needs to carry: give before you gain, build relationships — not transactions, and always see the human being in front of you. Guest Bio: Suela Pirushi is the founder and CEO of the Milestone Hub, a consultancy and coaching company helping small businesses and solopreneurs convert their expertise into revenue. She is the author of The Business Currency is Love, available on Amazon, and holds three master's degrees alongside an in-progress PhD in Epistemic Leadership and Human-AI Collaboration. Suela is an Ambassador for UN Women UK and volunteers for two UK charities — one supporting women experiencing violence, the other helping young women and girls from Albanian origins access STEM education. She is based in Buckinghamshire, UK. My website: www.themilestonehub.com The book: Amazon Australia https://www.amazon.com.au/s?k=suela+pirushi+the+business+currency+is+love&crid=ZZEG8JYBMUDO&sprefix=the+business+currency+is+love%2Caps%2C240&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_29 Amazon.co.uk   Amazon UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi&crid=2G13WF4MY9UOQ&sprefix=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi%2Caps%2C327&ref=nb_sb_ss_mvt-t11-ranker_1_43 amazon.com   Amazon US https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi&crid=B1NXMNPHUHKF&sprefix=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi%2Caps%2C247&ref=nb_sb_noss   Connect with Suela: Find her book The Business Currency is Love on Amazon.   🎙️ Listen now via your favourite podcast platform — links below. 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com Get your membership now.

  SHOW NOTES 🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast Episode: From Paralysis to Purpose — Aakriti on Resilience, Self-Love & the Psychology of Healing CONTENT NOTICE & SUPPORT RESOURCES Before you press play, please read this. This episode contains an open and thoughtful conversation about physical disability, depression, anxiety, mental health, and the long road to healing. Aakriti shares her lived experience with courage and clinical insight — and some of what she shares may bring up feelings in you. If you are currently struggling, please know that you are not alone and that support is available right now. GET HELP NOW Australia Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au (24/7 crisis support, call or chat) Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | beyondblue.org.au (anxiety, depression, mental health) Suicide Call Back Service — 1300 659 467 | suicidecallbackservice.org.au (24/7 counselling) 13YARN — 13 92 76 (24/7 crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples) Kids Helpline — 1800 55 1800 | kidshelpline.com.au (for young people aged 5–25) India iCall — 9152987821 | icallhelpline.org (psychology-based counselling) Vandrevala Foundation — 1860-2662-345 | vandrevalafoundation.com (24/7 mental health helpline) NIMHANS — nimhans.ac.in (National Institute of Mental Health) International findahelpline.com — find crisis support in your country EPISODE SUMMARY At 18 years old, Aakriti was prescribed the wrong medication — and woke up to find the left side of her body paralysed. Overnight, the confident, independent young woman entering her first year of college became entirely dependent on her family for every basic task. What followed was four years of psychological recovery, surgery, and an 18-year journey of healing that is still unfolding today. In this episode of The Motivate Collective, Aakriti — rehabilitation psychologist, counselling psychologist, art therapist, and career counsellor — shares her lived experience of disability, depression, perfectionism, and the slow rebuilding of confidence and identity. She speaks candidly about the difficulty of finding the right therapist, the importance of self-love and emotional regulation, and why her own story of loss and resilience became the foundation of her entire career. This is a conversation about how much life can change, and how much more it can give you in return — if you're willing to make peace with the path it takes. GUEST BIO Aakriti (At Peace Artist) is a rehabilitation psychologist, counselling psychologist, art therapist, and career counsellor based in India with six years of professional experience in psychology. Her current work focuses on vocational rehabilitation for young people with autism and ADHD — equipping them with life skills and pathways toward independence. Aakriti's clinical focus areas include adolescent mental health, anxiety, and addiction. Her brand, At Peace Artist, reflects her core philosophy: that healing requires finding a therapist and support system you genuinely feel at peace with. She is also a guest lecturer and handcraft business owner, and is currently working with her own therapist after a years-long search for the right fit. WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE [00:00] — Introduction and Aakriti's remarkable professional background [01:49] — The medication error at 18 that paralysed her left side and derailed her life [03:19] — Losing independence overnight: the psychological impact of physical dependency [04:20] — How she began to heal — and the therapist she still calls her angel [06:17] — Family as the first pillar of recovery; why her father's positivity was everything [07:23] — 18 years on: what residual symptoms still look like and why she keeps going [08:32] — The neuroscience of eating together and the loneliness epidemic [10:39] — Social media addiction, virtual autism, and what Aakriti sees in her clinic [13:09] — What people really need: not someone checking on them, but someone to turn to [14:10] — Setting boundaries without burning out: emotional regulation in caring professions [16:43] — You can't pour from an empty cup: the truth about self-care for helpers [18:58]— Preparing to be well — not just recovering after the fact [21:29] — Sharing your lived experience as a story of resilience for others [25:06] — The long search for the right therapist — and why fit matters more than credentials[28:10] — How to lead a wellness space while being gloriously imperfect [30:11] — Breaking perfectionism: how her health crisis dismantled every rigid expectation [33:43] — Losing a plan, gaining wisdom: the 360-degree career switch from design to psychology [37:32] — Three lessons everybody needs: self-love, gratitude, and self-forgiveness [40:08]— How to rebuild confidence after a sudden health shock KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE On identity and sudden loss of independence Aakriti's lived experience of losing physical function at 18 — the exact age most young people step into independence — offers a profound mirror for anyone who has ever had the rug pulled out. She needed her mother to dress her. She needed someone to take her to the bathroom. Understanding how that feels is essential context for the empathy she now brings to her clients. On finding the right therapeutic support Aakriti searched for the right therapist three times over nearly two decades. Her lived experience taught her that a credential is not the same as a connection — and that feeling safe, heard, and at peace in the room is what makes therapy work. She named her brand At Peace Artist precisely because of this insight. On self-love as a clinical tool — not a luxury Aakriti is direct: self-love is not selfish. It is the prerequisite for caring for anyone else. Her lived experience of burning out, of cancelling clients, of showing up depleted, informs the boundary-setting and emotional regulation work she now teaches to every client — particularly women in India who have been culturally conditioned to give everything to others first. On perfectionism and letting go Before her health changed, Aakriti had a list of exactly when she would graduate, start her career, and marry. Her illness dismantled all of it — and she now considers that one of the greatest gifts of her recovery. The lived experience of losing control taught her that plan B, C, and all the way to Z are not failures. They are options. On turning pain into purpose Aakriti changed careers entirely because of what she went through. She could not find a therapist who understood her condition — so she decided to become one. Her lived experience of navigating the mental health system from the inside became the reason she entered the field at all. STANDOUT QUOTES "It gave me much more than it took away. I'm okay with that." "You can't pour from an empty cup." "Self-love is not selfish. You have to take care of yourself to take care of others." "I didn't want there to be another Aakriti suffering from all this." "To err is human. You are a human being; you are going to make mistakes. Forgive yourself." "If you fall, there will be someone who will hold you up." "Not having plans is the best way to live." "I have 26 alphabets for a reason. We can have plan Z also." AAKRITI'S THREE LESSONS FOR EVERYONE 1. Self-love — You cannot give from an empty cup. Taking care of yourself is not selfishness; it is the foundation of caring for everyone else. 2. Gratitude — You don't always know what someone else is carrying. Be kind. Be grateful for what is manageable in your own life — and if it isn't manageable, seek support. 3. Self-forgiveness — You are human. You will make mistakes. Learn to forgive yourself as readily as you would forgive someone you love. It lifts a weight you didn't realise you were carrying. HOW TO REBUILD CONFIDENCE AFTER A HEALTH SHOCK(Aakriti's clinical advice from lived experience) Ask for help without hesitation. When you let people in, confidence returns. Stop looking backwards for blame. Focus forward — what is possible now, not what went wrong then. Surround yourself with positive, empathetic, non-judgmental people. Honest and kind are not opposites. You need real people, not just cheerleaders — but you need them to be in your corner. RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED 🌐 Follow Aakriti on Instagram: @atpeaceartist 🎙️ Aakriti has previously appeared on two podcasts in India — one on Spotify, one on YouTube CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE 🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com TAGS / CATEGORIES Mental Health | Psychology | Rehabilitation | Resilience | Self-Love | Boundaries | Personal Development | Wellness | Gratitude | Healing | Disability | Perfectionism | Emotional Regulation | Forgiveness | Purpose Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson     Aakriti Transcript    Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:00) It's Akriti.   Perfectly, baby.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:05) How do you explain to everybody, first of all, what exactly you do?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:10) Okay, I have a long list of that, but okay, let's give it a try. So, I'm a rehabilitation psychologist. I'm a counselling psychologist. I'm a career counsellor. I'm an art therapist. I'm a guest lecturer. I have my own do-do business also on the side but my basic work is with psychology. I've been in this since now six years it has been since I've been in psychology and yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:12) We'll come back.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:39) I've been a psychologist for 6 years now,   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:39) What general psychology do you specialise in, anything in particular?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:46) This is the counselling one. We deal with adolescents. It's basically anxiety, addiction and any kind. The rehab ones, yes, that is the rehab one that is the main. That is what I'm doing right now. We are doing a vocational rehab thing where we bring in the kids with special needs, the autism, the ADHD ones. We teach them life skills, and they learn to on through it. That is what we're doing currently.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:58)   Are you working with extreme special needs?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (01:18) No, exchange station needs as of now.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:22) Okay, so low-level special needs with high functioning in life.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (01:28) Right, the people who can be trained for what they can do in life, so that they can be independent basically. That's our main motto to make them independent somehow.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:40) Right, right. So they can aim for independence. That's great. What led you to want to focus on this specialty?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (01:49) Okay, so I was like completely ill at a point of time when I was 18. I was on my bed like completely on bed rest. couldn't move. My left half was paralysed due to some wrong medications that happened. I particularly have, sorry.   I was given some wrong medications that led to my left side getting paralysed like completely. I wasn't able to move it at all, so it yeah I wasn't well at that time   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:17) Are you saying you were okay, and then you got the wrong medication, and then your left side went paralysed?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (02:28) Yeah, that happened with me. So it took four years.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:31) My goodness!   Remind everybody,   Sorry, remind everybody how old were you when this happened?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (02:40) Sorry?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:41) How old were you when you became parallel? What a way to start adulthood.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (02:43) I was 18. 18.   What a way to start college, was in the first year of college at that time. So that got disrupted completely, life was a complete mess. I couldn't get what I was going into, what was going around me. Depression, anxiety, all of that came along with it. So yeah, that was a bad phase basically. It took me four years to get out of it. Somehow, the psychological part, it took me four years, and then I had to go through surgery for my left leg   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:00)   So you took what four years, did you say?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (03:14) Okay, okay.   Yeah, four years to get better psychologically.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:19)   Did that mean you were looking for confidence and faith in your abilities? Was it the overcoming of the depression?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (03:31) Both you can say overcoming the depression and getting my confidence back, because I lost it completely when this happened. know, being a chirpy girl who's just going around anywhere she wants to, and now she's dependent on someone, especially my family, my parents. had to be, like even for the washroom, I had to tell my mother, me to the washroom. That was the condition at that time. So, we did become that bad.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:54) U.S. Tourism Administration don't know what the age is for adulthood in your country, but here, where I am in Australia, people become independent adults, at least officially at 18, and you are becoming the opposite of independent at that age.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (04:00) Your team.   True that. True that. Yes. Yes. That is what it was.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:20) How did you make peace with that change?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (04:25)   At that time, psychology was a completely alien topic to me, honestly. I never even had heard about it. This all happened in 2008. Psychology wasn't a great term at that time. So we were like, okay, let's try to understand what was going on with me. I met my therapist. She made me   I wanted to understand how it all works, but I wasn't ready to give in. I was like, no, can't, I am not able to accept it as of now. But she was very patient with me. She sat with me throughout. She gave me complete four to five years. She was with me throughout through thick and thin. She was there with me all the time. And she was the one who basically got me out of it. I still call her my angel for that reason.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:10) Does this mean you were trying to figure out what had even happened?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (05:18) So we figured out almost in six months, but the thing wasn't going away. The paralysis part wasn't going away. I was still on bed. I couldn't walk. I couldn't do anything on my own. Even dressing was my mom's thing. She used to dress me up, and everything was, I was completely dependent. Like I couldn't do even one thing by myself. Only the college work is what I could do by myself. Nothing else.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:44) So, for at least half a year of not being able to live independently, he didn't even know why.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (05:53) Yes, I was completely clueless what was happening around me. Completely clueless.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:00) Did you feel scared?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:02) Very scared. was just crying all the time. I didn't know what to do with my life. I wasn't even sure I was going to live through it. I was like, no, I don't even want to live like this.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:04)   Wow, what brought you out of that darkness?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:17) I believe it could be my family, first of all, they were very, very supportive, very understanding. They were the first ones who were basically there for me. They were like, no, you will get better. We are there to support you. Especially my father, he was very, very positive about it. He was very sure we will get out of it. And he's still there. He's still like that, that you will get out of it completely. I'm still not out of it. I still have still need support to walk sometimes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:39)   Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:45) And whenever I get a bit anxious, starts twitching. So you can see that the paralysis part comes back somehow.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:50) You get anxious and stressed.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:54) Whenever I am stressed, this part again starts twitching; my left hand won't function properly. It is still, the residual part is still there, it hasn't completely gone away. But I'm still in therapy, and they say it will leave in a few years now. So just waiting. It has been 18 years, and we're still working on it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:12) 18 years.   You're saying that over time, everything should ease gradually so you can feel a bit, but not much.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (07:23) Yes, it is going away. won't say it is still that troublesome. I do my whole work by myself. That is a big achievement for me right now. I can do everything in my room. I can even cook sometimes. I do like to cook. can even cook. That is a big achievement for me. At least I have a life skill with me that will keep me alive. But yeah, I still need help.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:48) Cooking is so important because you can help yourself to feel healthy and get energy with the right foods, and you can feel some control over what you are eating when you know what goes into your food.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (08:05) True, true. It also involves feeding the family. like to, like, they have been through so much along with me. So I like to do something for them in return. So that is my way. I like to sometimes cook something for them so that they can also enjoy. They can also feel I'm there for them. So they're going over now. So I have to take care of them, is what I realised. So I have to get better for that too, not just for myself.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:28) Yep.   For your family.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (08:31) Yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:32) It's a great feeling of being useful, and also, some people say that we can live longer when we eat with other people instead of in isolation.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (08:41) Yes.   That happens, is a chemical thing that happens in the brain. Call it chemical imbalance or chemical balance, whatever you call it. Yeah, it happens whenever you are with your family or you're eating with anyone for that matter. That gives you more happiness, that would give you a satiety, feeling of satiety very soon. I give that to my clients also that you should eat with someone. I know you are not feeling well. Even when I was depressed, I won't eat with anyone.   You need to force yourself for that, for at least one meal a day with someone, at least. So that girl that does help them, yeah. I give that out to my clientele.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:22) Do you ever see that your clients just have the option of eating in a public space around other people instead of eating alone in isolation? Do you find that that's a step in a good direction?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (09:37) That is for some; some are like very, very introverted. They won't, they are not very confident in public. They don't feel like eating in public. I am also one of them. I am, I don't eat at marriages at all. I can't eat with so many people around me which is a problem with me, I guess. But yeah, that depends on the person basically.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:57) So essentially, do you think we should either feast with our families or our unofficial chosen families that could be friends or a community?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (10:10) I'm sorry I didn't get the question.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:12) Should we... are you saying we should eat with family or community or friends?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (10:20) We should, at least one meal a day should be with someone. Rest, you can have it on your own, but at least one meal a day should be with someone. Especially breakfast, for that matter, that's how you begin your day, but yeah, otherwise also it's okay.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:33) What difference have you seen? What change have you seen when people do this?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (10:39) The feeling of loneliness that we are seeing nowadays, people are being too much involved in their phones and the social media is what is engrossing them a lot, it keeps them busy but the feeling of having a person, a physical person in front of you that gives you a feeling of having someone, not the loneliness, the loneliness feelings, it just goes away somehow.   Plus, social media is causing many problems. The addiction is the thing that we are seeing right now in my clinic. have seen a lot of kids. The virtual autism thing is coming up. Kids are getting addicted to phones, 2 or 3 year olds and they go to show symptoms of autism. Perfectly fine kids. But they got addicted to the screen and now they showing signs of autism. So that also happened. That is a reversible thing, but still, that is there.   When we see kids with addictions, social media, yeah. Social media is causing a lot of problems, too. It is there for a benefit, but we are not using it for a benefit. When we are at it, it problems all around. So that is something I tell them: keep your phone down. That's what I do. If I am with my family, no phones in the room. I have made it a strict rule, if you come to my room, no phones in my room. You have to talk to me. You can watch the TV, but no phones in my room. So no one is allowed to see phones in my room.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:05) That you can see some social benefit from some things we do on the phone. I know this podcast recording is sharing your story with people anywhere. However, it sounds like we also need to remember to see people in person or gather together.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (12:26) That is the necessity, that is how we get out of that shell that we have created around us. And that is, we have a bubble around us that tells us, no you are alone, you don't have anyone, you don't know how to ask for help, you have lost all your social skills. But having someone around will give you that confidence, okay? No, you have someone you can rely on, you can give a call to someone, and someone will be there for you.   Now that gives a sense of you being, a sense of having someone around is just a sense of happiness I feel. For some, it is, for some, it isn't, but that again depends on the person. But yeah, having someone would actually give you a sense of happiness is what I feel.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:09) Do you find that generally, for happiness and survival, people need to know that someone out there is wondering if they are okay?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (13:20) Wondering if they're okay, I'm not sure, but someone out there is there for them. Just, you know, knowing that you have someone you can rely on. That would do the task.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:21)   Someone to turn to.   So someone to turn to when you need it.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (13:34) Exactly. You have someone; if you fall, there will be someone who will hold you up.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:40) To hold you up, that's a great way to put it. And a question there, I know that people get burned out, people get tired and busy. I'm wondering how can we hold up the people around us without feeling too busy and tired, or without doing too much, doing more than we can fit in our day.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (14:10) So we teach boundaries, I have been teaching that a lot to my clients. Boundaries are something you need to learn. You need to learn how and when to create it. I won't say stay in the boundaries forever. It can be permeable for someone; it could be a normal, big boundary for someone, but you need to have a boundary. You need to have emotional regulation for that part.   When you regulate yourself emotionally, you are a healthy dietitian, then you can take care of someone. When you are not healthy, you can't take care of anyone. If you are burnt out,   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:42) Just remember, so we need a boundary.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (14:46) Yes, you need to have boundaries because that is how you take care of yourself. Self-love is the thing that comes here. When you can't take care of yourself, you won't be able to take care of anyone around you. If I'm emotionally burnt out, a client comes to me, I won't be able to take care of them like I would have normally. So I, on the days that I'm not well, I avoid taking clients, as you know, I am not well, I won't be taking any clients today cause I don't feel fine. That is how it should be, I believe   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:18) Does that mean it's okay for professionals to say, I need to cancel a few things occasionally if I am suddenly feeling not quite okay?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (15:33) Yes, you can say that I usually take my appointments in the morning. So that is how I know if I'm not going to cancel out on anyone. Yes, if that happens, cancelling, we don't feel good. We don't feel good while cancelling on someone because we know the person is having trouble. That is the reason they're coming to us. And if we also cancel out on them, then what is going to happen with that person? We have to take care of them, too. If I am not able to give my 100%, then what is the point of them coming to me, seeking for help or seeking for solutions? What is the point then? If I am not giving my 100 %?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:15) I'm like,   I apologise so much. Yes, go for it. Tell us more because I think that some of us show up when we are feeling empty, and you're saying you need to refill your cell and you need to have what you need to be able to give and provide help.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (16:43) True, true. Yes. You can't pour from an empty cup is a famous saying there, and that applies to almost every one of us. Especially us in the healthcare professions. That has to be a thing. We can't take care of anyone when we are not well. Even for my family, even for my mother, say that if you are not feeling well, how are you going to take care of us? Please take care of yourself first. That is how you will take care of us. Because she is the one taking care of the whole family. She has to be well, for that matter.   If she lies on bed, the whole family would be shaken. I know she's a pillar of the family. So that is why I always preach self-love to every lady out there, especially in India that happens. Females here forget about self, they are just about the family, about the people, about the person with them, but they don't think about themselves. That is why I have that boundary part. I teach them emotion regulation. The self-love thing is...   I can call it preaching. I am kind of preaching it to everyone out there. They not teaching but I like to preach it to every person out there. That is me. That is how I have been well throughout the years. That is how I have gone out of my shell, not being well. So now I can proudly say I am getting better. I am not perfectly fine, but I am getting better every day because I know what gets me better. So, emotional regulation has to be there.   And sometimes when you are feeling like, okay, I don't think I can do this. You still have to take in the client cause cancelling out on them isn't something that is doable on a particular day. You can't cancel out on someone as randomly. You need to take time for that. We give them a 24-hour car notice period before they cancel on us. So we also have that thing in us that we have to take 24 hours at least before cancelling out on them.   So we have to be mindful about that too. If I have a session with you tomorrow, I have to be mindful that I have to take care of myself today. So I don't have to cancel out on you tomorrow. That is something we have to keep in mind so that we don't have to cancel out on anyone, for that matter.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:58) That right there is the importance of self-care. We have to prepare to be well.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (19:05) Go. Go.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:07) That is so crucial, and it's going back to basics. I can tell you some organisations have been asking lately, how can people be well? And it sounds like a part of this is through setting up the habits, but also preparing when you know more things will be happening, allow yourself the time leading up to it.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (19:31) Hmm.   True, yes. If I know I have like I have three appointments today. So yesterday I was on off, I was taking care of myself, working on my things, but not seeing clients per se. That is how I prepared for myself. I have three appointments in the day today. Like three different appointments, different meetings. I don't have clients, but I meetings today. So I prepared for it yesterday, and I didn't take any clients yesterday.   I booked for Thursday and Friday, but not for Wednesday. That is what I did.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:05) Clients and podcast recording.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (20:07) I like to multitask, that is me, I guess. I like to multitask, I like to do everything that I can do. That is why I have a Jholi business too with me. I like to make Jholi by hand, that is what I do there. So yeah, that is my therapy, I guess.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:22) It's wonderful having these conversations on the show and exploring what we need and how we can solve things. I find that it's just a great sense of community, and it's therapeutic for us as creators. I agree with you. Have you been on any other podcasts?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (20:41) So it is.   Yes, I've been on two before this. Both in India, but I've been on two before this. One is on Spotify, and one is on YouTube right now. So yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:55) Right. So this is your first one outside of India.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (21:00) Yes, yes, that is the first one. Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:03) Awesome. And what I'm curious, so you're sharing your truth and you're being brave in sharing your experience about your health and your work. Have you seen that it is helping you in sharing your truth with the world?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (21:29) Yes, I believe it gives out a story of resilience to people. can see, if this person who has been through so much can do this, then why can't I? So that is what I have heard from my clients. Okay, we have seen you, and we feel that we have nothing in front of us. Not comparing, personally, I don't say compare your problems with mine. Not a fair way to deal with it because you might have bigger problems which are not showing up yet, but mine is visible because it is physical. Yours might not be, since it's psychological. It might not be visible to people. But still, I'm not saying compare it. But the story of resilience is what I hear people love. And even my clients, my family, they all told me to write a book about it. But me being Ganesh, I don't write anything. But they want me to write a book about it. It will inspire more people out there.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:24) I think you should write a book about your experience, and did you say that you were 18 around 2008?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (22:31) Yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:32) You are pretty close to my age. And I was going to say that earlier. I'm really close to your age. And so it's sinking in so much for me that I know life can feel so long after this much adulthood. And what I'm learning from your story is that we take for granted what we do have. Seriously.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (22:57) True, yes, that happens. Now, if I talk to someone and they're like, okay, but you know, this happened with me, I say, okay, that is your problem, that is what you're going through, but you will come out of it. But don't forget to say your gratitude, because you might have something that the other person might not have. You at least have access to therapy; some people don't even have that. For example, if you have a problem with your family for some matter, they never had that exposure to therapy, weren't, you know, they didn't have this option of therapy when they were young. But you have it. Your blessings, for that matter. Say gratitude that you have that thing that you can talk to someone you can understand, and you can, you know, get better in life. They didn't have that option.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:43) Even in lots of locations, there's so much access to therapy now. Over here, some services are covered by public insurance, but also there are online therapies that you can access anywhere. And have you found that therapy is so much more accessible than it used to be?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (24:01) Hmm.   Honestly, yes, when I was not well, and I was trying to find a therapist for myself, it took me around a year to like have a therapist, like find a therapist who could treat me okay. See, she left the country after five years, and she's not in the country right now. When she was handing me over to someone else, we again had that problem. Again, it took me time to find a therapist who could like actually understand my condition because I was out of it now, but I still needed therapy somehow.   I was out of bed-reading version, but still, I needed some kind of therapy. Still, there was something residual in me. Again, it took me years to find a good therapist for myself. Now she left the job after that. Now, the third time, when I had to look for a therapist and now I am a therapist myself, it becomes all the more difficult. Since I have access, most of them are my colleagues or friends. Now I am stuck. What do I do?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:39) Yeah.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (25:06) So it took me a lot of time. It took me a lot of time to find a therapist. Now I have found a therapist for myself. Almost after 6 or 7 years, I could find a therapist for myself. It took me 6 to 7 years to find a therapist. I have been on and off with therapy. I have been trying to find a therapist, but I couldn't. I feel miserably at that. So finally I found a therapist. Now that is after about 6 years, and I have just had one session with her, but I feel better already.   So I know this one is meant to be for me. Finding a therapist and finding a therapist who fits your condition is the thing here. Like, who understands, yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:48) Are you saying it's okay to look for the right person instead of just anyone?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (25:54) True, you have to find the right person for that matter. Yes, that would be a correct word. Not saying fit, but yeah. Finding a correct therapist who you feel a vibe with when you talk to them. That is what I personally feel. I don't feel vibes with someone, and I say no, this isn't going to work, because I know I'm not feeling that with you. I don't feel that peace of safety. I don't feel that peace while I'm talking to you. So that won't lead to a good therapy session, that is what I realised so as I say go for a therapist who you feel at peace with that is why I have the name at peace artist that is the reason I have my pages name at peace artist. That is my brand, that is why I came up with it   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:38) I'm so keen to ask also as a therapist and as someone who goes to therapy, I'm curious, do you see that it's important to even simply have someone to talk to at all?   just to talk to someone.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (26:53) It is very important to have someone to talk to. I feel if after I have had a very hard or very heavy therapy session, call it maybe for grief counselling or trauma counselling, at that point of time I would need someone to talk to. I don't need to share the details with them. Just a 15-minute break with someone, could just chit chat and could come back to my room. That gives me lot of power back.   Although I have talked a lot in this session, I am tired from talking, but I still need that kind of interaction, that kind of conversation to happen. So that I can feel myself again for the next client. have to be prepared for them too. So I feel yes, it is very very important to have someone to talk to. And the person has to be someone with matching with your EQ. Otherwise, you will go crazy again.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:42) The right emotional intelligence… is that what you're saying?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (27:46) Yes, yes, exactly.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:48) That's crucial. I'm wondering how can we, when we are leading a wellness space or a health space, how can we let ourselves be flawed when still showing strength and courage at the same time?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (28:10) I didn't get it right, I'm sorry.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:11) Okay, so when we are leading health spaces, how can we let ourselves be not perfect when still showing courage and being brave at the same time?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (28:17) Hmm?   I feel that's human, right? That is what human beings are. We don't have to be perfect. We have to be good humans. That's all that matters in a therapy room or in a therapy space. matters. I... Initially, I was like, what do people think when they see me walking with someone, walking with the help of someone? Because that's what I do. I get scared while walking alone because of the surgery that happened with me. So I need someone to hold my hand. Initially, I was very, very sceptical. How would...   The clients feel that their client, their therapist, is not perfect themselves. How would they feel? But later on, I realised I don't have to be that person for them. I have to be a therapist in the room. I have to be a different person in the room. When I am sitting with them, I am there as a therapist. I am a human being. I can have my flaws, but they are all outside the room. Inside the room, I am a human being sitting with them, trying to provide them a completely judgment-free space, trying to be their empathetic partner there, then. So yeah, initially I was very, very sceptical. But now I know I am a human being, I can make mistakes, I can have regrets, I can have anything and everything that they have. But in that room, I had to be very, very true to myself and true to the client. That is that all that matters is what I believe. That is what is important.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:49) Yes.   Were you feeling your perfectionism when you wanted someone to hold your hand and are you saying you wanted a bit of help to walk steady and you had to feel confident and know you are great despite needing help?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (30:11) Hmm?   Yes, I would say yes. My perfectionism has been there since I was a child. I know that for myself. I don't know how you came to know about it, but that was me when I was a child. I needed everything at that particular time in that particular order. That was me when I was a child. But it all got disrupted because of this thing. Because now it was my mother who was doing things for me. So it all got disrupted. So every, every, what do you call it?   I don't remember the word, but every thought, every stupid thought that I had, that if this doesn't happen in this way, it would lead to something bad. That was how I used to be when I was 18 years old. But all that broke due to all this, so I'm happy about it. The myths that I had, that they all just broke away somehow in therapy rooms and after therapy rooms also. The perfectionism thing was there.   I guess it is still there to some extent, but now it's not hurting me or anyone. Initially, it was hurting everyone around me, including me. Because that is how I needed things to be. Now I'm like, okay, if they're not going this way, they'll go that way. We'll have a plan B, we'll have a plan C. have 26 alphabets for a reason. We can have plan Z also. That is how it can be. Now it is okay to make mistakes, to fall down. It is okay.   I have to go with the flow, have to understand how things work. I don't have to be a perfect person. Otherwise, I would be a god, for that matter. I am a human being. I am happy being a human being.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:47) It sounds like you're saying that as human being, we can't control everything. And it sounds like even before your health changed, were, so even before your health changed, you were wanting everything to be perfect. Am I, no? After? Yes, that was right. So you wanted things to be perfect. Even after, sorry, even before   Aakriti (At Peace. A (32:08) Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:16) Your health changed from an early age, and it sounds like I'm guessing a health change would teach you the lesson that you can't control everything.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (32:25) That's what happened, and that makes me happy now. Initially, it was very, very depressing, but now I'm happy about it. That is how I was taught, and I'm okay about it. That is how I had to learn this thing. But I learned something good out of it. That makes me happy. Okay, this happened, but it taught me something good in life. It gave me much more than it took away. I'm okay with that. I'm completely fine with it now. I've made my peace, basically, is what I believe.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:52) You made peace. gave you lessons. It gave you wisdom.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (32:59) It did. And this is what made me change my course in life. It made me switch the career that I was in. I was into a leading design college in my graduation. Yes. And I switched to psychology in my master's. I did clinical psychology in my master's. So that helped me make a switch. Because I understood the condition of mental health in the country, I could see what is going on.   I could see that I couldn't find a therapist myself. So I said, no, I have to do something that another girl doesn't face a problem like this. There isn't another Akriti for that reason is what I say. I didn't want there to be another Akriti suffering from all this. Let's get into the field and let's understand what happens inside the field. So that even if I'm able to help a person, even if one person I'm able to help, I've done my need.   I've lived my life, I'm okay with it, I've made peace with it again. So, yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:00) amazing. You are inspiring people even more than I realised because we're all going to lose something at some point. We go through grief, we have an injury. For me, I broke my leg years ago, and I took years to recover, but I can walk around now, and I can tell you that I was losing other things   Aakriti (At Peace. A (34:09) Yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:29) More recently, and what I'm seeing from you is that we do lose things and then we gain things, and we're not going to have control over all of that.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (34:42) Trying to control would make us even more crazy, more anxious, even more depressed when things don't go our way. So why try to do that? Yes, some things are needed to be controlled. That is okay. But we have to also learn the art of letting go. We have to let go. Some things, at least in life. Not everything is going to go according to our plan. I had a great plan when I was 17, 16. I had like a long list of plans. What I'm going to do with my life.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:59) Letting go.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (35:11) It took a complete 360 there. I don't know what happened then, and the switch has been quite a major switch to be honest. Not even a smaller one. It has been a major switch. I was supposed to get my 26 according to my list. I'm 36 and still single. So... Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:31) So you made a list before the health change. Are you saying that you wanted to be married by a particular age? Did I hear that right?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (35:35) Yes, I have the complete list.   Yes, yes that was my plan when I was 16, okay? This is the age I'll have my career, like I might have made my career, and this is the age that I plan to marry. That was my plan when I was 16. I'll make plans for next 10 years.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:00) You say you are 36 now, we are close enough to the same age, and it's nice to, and by the way, for those listening on audio, we are both wearing blue, and it's reassuring to, this is what I love about the podcast. I'm in Australia, you're in India, right? And we can say, okay, at this age, you don't know what's going to happen. And all you can do is make   Aakriti (At Peace. A (36:11) Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:27) Peace with how unpredictable life is.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (36:31) I still can't make a plan. Now I'm a bit afraid of making plans. I'm like, okay, let us see whatever comes. We'll go according to that. We're not making any plans now. So my father said you should think about marriage when you're 35. I said, okay, let's think about it now. The thinking process has started somehow, but no plans as of now. I'm just happy being in the family. I'm just happy being here in my mother's house. I'm happy with that right now.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:00) Okay. To get nearer the end of the conversation, I like to find some wisdom that everybody can learn from. Some big truths. And do you have three lessons that everybody needs to learn or do after this? It could be as simple as gratitude, just any concept.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (37:07) Hmm.   Hmm?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:28) anything that everybody needs to remember to be okay.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (37:32) The first and the major one here I would like to talk about is self-love. We talked about, and I still would like to talk about, because I believe people still lack in that part. They still not okay with the self-love part. They feel it is being greedy, being selfish. But self-love is not selfish is the line that we give here. Self-love will never be selfish. You have to take care of yourself to take care of others around you. The first would be that.   Second, believe having gratitude is very, very important. We never know having gratitude is something that is very important in life. Yes, we don't know what the other person is going through. We have to be kind to them, and we have to be grateful that we are not going through something major. The thing that we have is okay and is manageable, yet. If it is not manageable, go talk to a therapist, but if it is manageable, let it be with you.   Let yourself be through it. Try to go through it and try to understand what happened, how it happened and how you have come over it. So that gives you a life lesson to move on in life, making peace with it. The third one is going to be a bit difficult, that's to think about it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:49) Okay, what's one thing you wish you knew when you were little?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (38:54) Not having plans is the best way to live. Nothing in life needs perfection. To err is human, is what I have kept in front of me right now. To err is human. You are a human being; you are going to make mistakes. Forgive yourself. Learn to forgive yourself. The third one came out. You have to learn to forgive yourself. Yes. Practice forgiveness for others and for yourself, too.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:56) What happened?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (39:21) That takes away the burden to a great extent when you sleep at night. When you learn to forgive others along with yourself. I wasn't able to do this. I'm a bad person. No, that is how you learn to forgive yourself. That is why self-love is important again. yeah. The third one also came out, and we have a lesson. Yeah. Sorry.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:41) Forgive yourself and others.   They are great lessons. Crete, thank you so much for sharing your truth. And beyond these three lessons, one other thing I wanted to check is if someone does get a big surprise with their health, how can they return to their confidence?   Aakriti (At Peace. A (40:08) Okay. For that, I would say don't hesitate in asking for help is the first thing is when you ask for help, you have people around you, then the confidence somehow gets restored. Plus, don't start blaming. Don't look for reasons out there when you're in, you have gotten a very big shock or surprise, as you call it, with your head. Don't try to look for what you did, what could be going wrong. Look for what could you   What could you do with your life now? What could be your future now? Not going in the past, going for the future. And the third one would be having as many positive people around you. Now, positive is what I'm putting the weight on. Positive is what you need to find back your confidence. If you would have negative people, you'll have only criticism and that won't let you have back your confidence.   Yes, not everything is sugary and sweet, but you can have a bit of mean words in between, that is okay, but you need to have real people for that matter. Who are empathetic, who are positive and who are non-judgmental. They can give you good feedback, and you can get back to your life more easily. I had a lot of foster people around me, and it did give me a great, great help to move on in life.   The people that I found, I still cherish them. They are still with me. It has been almost 17-18 years, they still with me. They still in my life. The friends that I found at that point of age. My school friends are there, but these are the people that I can cherish for my whole life. They were there when I actually needed someone, and they held my hand when I wanted them to. Without even asking once. So having such a person in life is a blessing, I believe.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:02) Have people in your life.   Aakriti, thank you so much again. You are so brave, and you are so bold, and I hope so many people can hear about your story and your strengths. Thank you.   Aakriti (At Peace. A (42:18) Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening to me. Thank you so

Renee Borgelt lost her husband to suicide after 32 years together. Hear her lived experience of grief, healing through meditation, and finding purpose on the other side.🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast   ⚠️ CONTENT NOTICE & SUPPORT RESOURCES Before you press play, please read this. This episode contains an honest and compassionate conversation about suicide, suicide loss, grief, PTSD, and mental health. The lived experiences shared here are told with courage and care — and they may bring up feelings of your own. If you are currently struggling, please know: you are not alone, and support is available right now. 🆘 GET HELP NOW 🇦🇺 Australia Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au (24/7 crisis support, call or chat) Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | beyondblue.org.au (anxiety, depression, mental health) Suicide Call Back Service — 1300 659 467 | suicidecallbackservice.org.au (24/7 counselling) 13YARN — 13 92 76 (24/7 crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples) Kids Helpline — 1800 55 1800 | kidshelpline.com.au (for young people aged 5–25) 🇺🇸 United States 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — call or text 988 | 988lifeline.org (24/7, free and confidential) Crisis Text Line — text HOME to 741741 🌐 International findahelpline.com — find crisis support in your country 💛 HOW TO SUPPORT SOMEONE YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT One of the most important things Renee shares in this episode is that the signs are often there — and that simply showing up, listening, and meaning what you say can make a profound difference. If you are worried about someone in your life: Ask directly. Research shows that asking someone if they are thinking about suicide does not plant the idea — it opens a door. Listen without judgment. You don't need to fix it. Just being present matters. Mean what you offer. If you say I'm here for you, follow through. Help them access support. Offer to sit with them while they call a helpline, or to help them book a GP or counselling appointment. Take care of yourself, too. Supporting someone through a crisis is emotionally demanding. You deserve support as well. A NOTE FROM MELANIE This is one of the most important conversations I have hosted on The Motivate Collective. Renee's lived experience — her courage, her honesty, and her ongoing commitment to turning pain into purpose — is a reminder that healing is possible, even after the unthinkable. If this episode moved you, please share it. You never know whose life a conversation like this might quietly save. With love and intention, The Motivate Collective & MSW x     Episode: Finding Purpose After the Unthinkable — Renee Borgelt on Grief, Healing, and Starting Over EPISODE SUMMARY When Renee Borgelt lost her husband of 32 years to suicide on September 14th, 2023, she didn't just lose a partner — she lost the entire life she had known since she was sixteen years old. In this deeply moving episode, Renee shares the lived experience of discovering her husband's death, navigating the fog of grief without financial access to therapy, and rebuilding herself through meditation, journaling, and an unexpected spiritual connection that would ultimately reveal her life's purpose. What emerged from unimaginable loss is a story of radical resilience, community building, and the courage to show up — imperfectly, exhausted, hair in a bun — and help others do the same. GUEST BIO Renee Borgelt is a grief guide, online community builder, and author-in-progress based in Iowa, USA. After losing her husband to suicide following his recovery from two strokes, Renee turned her lived experience of grief into a mission to help others feel less alone. She goes live on TikTok four nights a week, has built a following of nearly 18,000 people across five platforms, and is co-founding a suicide prevention and outreach foundation called The Door's Always Openwith her children. She is currently writing two books: a compilation of spiritual messages she has received through meditation, and a memoir titled My Journey Back to Myself. WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE [00:00] — Introduction: The morning that changed everything [02:15] — What the weeks leading up to her husband's death looked like — and the signs she wishes she had understood sooner [05:14] — The identity crisis of losing the thing that gives you meaning (a theme all listeners can reflect on) [07:32] — How Renee found a reason to stay — and the one sentence her daughter said that changed everything [09:00] — "What heals you will heal others": the message that revealed her purpose [11:47] — How lived experience of loss can become a calling to guide others [14:29] — What her online community actually needs from her each day [17:21] — The discipline of grief: "have your moment, then get up anyway" [19:13] — Starting every morning with the question: Who can I help today?[22:03] — How to support someone who may be struggling — what to look for, and what to say [25:01] — The role of spiritual connection and divine guidance in Renee's healing [28:15] — Letting go of perfectionism and just getting your voice out there [33:43] — Why Renee would go live after working 20–28 days straight across two jobs — and why it was worth it [36:05] — Returning to Iowa: full-circle healing, facing PTSD, and the peace that followed [40:00] — Final words of wisdom: presence, gratitude, and the ripple effect of small acts of kindness KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE On grief and survival Renee's lived experience of losing a spouse to suicide challenges the assumption that grief follows a predictable path. Her process was minute-by-minute, then hour-by-hour — not a tidy journey through stages, but a raw daily commitment to keep breathing. On identity and purpose after loss When her husband's ability to drive truck was compromised by strokes, it stripped him of the identity that gave him meaning. Renee draws a powerful parallel for all listeners: when we lose the thing we do well and love, the impact goes far deeper than skill. It touches our sense of worth. On healing avoidance "You can shove it under the rug, but eventually you're going to trip over it." Renee's lived experience of returning to Iowa and walking back through the day of her husband's death — deliberately, intentionally — was the final piece of her healing. Avoidance delays, it doesn't protect. On showing up imperfectly Renee went live on TikTok four nights a week while working two jobs, sometimes 20–28 days straight. Her lived experience of building community in exhaustion taught her that authenticity always outperforms polish. People don't want a script. They want you to be real. On perspective as a healing tool The shift from this is happening to me to this is happening for me was pivotal. Renee's lived experience of sitting with that reframe — especially in the early months of grief — didn't minimise the pain. It redirected it toward meaning. STANDOUT QUOTES "What heals you will heal others." "I could have laid in my bed for a year and a half. But where would that have gotten me?" "Your feelings are valid — even when they don't make sense to the outside world." "You have to feel it to heal it." "If you're still here and you're kicking and you're breathing, you have a purpose in this life." "Just get your voice out there. That's more important than anything perfect you could put out." "A smile from somebody in line at the grocery store meant a lot to me. You never know what somebody is going through." RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED 🌐 Follow Renee on TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram to join her live grief support community (search Renee Borgelt) 📖 My Journey Back to Myself — Renee's upcoming memoir (watch her platforms for release updates) 📖 Untitled daily messages book — a compilation of positive, uplifting spiritual messages to inspire daily reflection 🏛️ The Door's Always Open — Renee's upcoming suicide prevention and community outreach foundation, with a focus on youth IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW IS STRUGGLING This episode covers suicide, grief, and mental health. If anything resonated and you need support: 🇦🇺 Australia: Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au 🇺🇸 USA: 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — call or text 988 🌐 International:findahelpline.com You are not alone. Somebody will miss you. CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE 🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com TAGS / CATEGORIES Grief | Mental Health | Suicide Prevention | Resilience | Purpose | Personal Development | Healing | Spirituality | Mindset | Wellness | Storytelling | Community Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson   Transcript     Renee Show Notes Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01) Renee, welcome to the show.   Renee Borgelt (00:03) Thank you for having me.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:04) You have quite a story to share. Let's dive right in and share what happened.   Renee Borgelt (00:11) Okay, basically, let me start with, have you ever had that voice inside of you that says something's not right, right, or don't go that way, or you shouldn't do that? Have you ever had that voice, and you didn't listen? That was, yeah, that was me on the morning of September 14th of 2023. I had been at my brother's down the street from where we had been staying in our camper at my mom's, and I had been doing some painting, and that little voice was screaming at me. And that was the second time in my life that I didn't listen. And I had walked over to fill my paint roller, because like I said, I was doing some painting for my brother, and I could see my husband outside the window because we had been staying in our camper. My husband had had two strokes the year prior.   And so, my husband was a truck driver and he was, we were living in our camper at my mom's. So my husband could drive truck again from my husband after he recovered from all of his strokes. And so I had looked out the window and I seen him take the dog leash off of the camper, the outside dog leash. And I didn't think anything of it at that second. And then I went back to painting, and within minutes, my alarm bells were just screaming at me. And they're like, something's not right. You need to walk back. And so I put down the roller, and I proceeded to walk back towards our camper, where we were staying. And I was trying to call my husband's phone as I walked, and I wasn't getting any answer, which was really strange. And as I got closer, to the camper, had discovered that my husband had taken his life.     Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:10) Is that he had taken his life. That was after he noticed the dog leash was missing.   Renee Borgelt (02:15) Mm-hmm.   Yep. Yep. Yeah. I seen him take the dog leash off. And like I said, the alarm bells in my head were screaming at me, and I knew something wasn't right. And so when I walked over there, yeah, he had proceeded to take his life, which in that moment, you know, we had been together for 32 years. So 32 years just gone, crumbled, you know, my worst nightmare had happened.   And.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:50) It really is. It is.   Renee Borgelt (02:52) It was, yeah, my worst nightmare. I, you know, I, and so I proceeded to try to give him CPR and tell the paramedics to come and, yeah. And then the rest of the day was just kind of a blur. And, for the next two weeks, it was, it was even hard to breathe. Cause in that 32 years we'd been together, we'd never been apart more than two weeks. And.   I didn't know what to do. know, everybody kept telling me, Renee, just keep putting one foot in front of the other. And, I could barely breathe. So it was literally minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. I was just getting by, you know, so.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:38) What happened leading up to this? Was he depressed?   Renee Borgelt (03:44) Well, like I said, he had had two strokes. He had gotten sick at the end of 21 with pneumonia and went into the hospital. And, while in the hospital, he had had two strokes. And so, that let, cause he actually got better pretty quickly, but then the strokes happened. And so he was in the hospital for 88 days. And by the time he got out, he had no muscle mass left. had.   He basically had to learn how to do life all over again. And so we went through six months of physical therapy to get his life back, and he did really well. And he went back to driving a truck, but he didn't have his upper mobility back. So we couldn't get up on a truck and tarp it yet. And so my brother owned a trucking company. And so that's when my brother said, Hey, you know, why don't you come, come home and bring the camper, and I can put him to work and he doesn't have to get up on a truck and it putting back behind the steering wheel again, which is what he loved to do. Right. That's all he ever wanted to do is drive a truck. And, I had noticed the weeks prior, something was really weighing on him. And I know that he was really struggling, I think with directions, right? And thinking, you know, Hey, I'm not sure how much longer I'm going to be able to do this. Right. And, you know, which meant, okay, now what am I going to do and how am I going to take care of, you know, my family? Right. And so.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:14) So it's really direction driving.   Renee Borgelt (05:16) Yes, yeah, he was really getting mixed up. Yeah, so yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:23) That's a theme that a lot of people can relate to because a lot of people, whether they get older or something happens to them, they certainly can't do the thing that they knew how to do and identified with. And that's, think, something we all need to reflect on for a moment. I want to really allow space for the listeners to absorb that.   Renee Borgelt (05:40) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:52) We need to really allow space for people when they are struggling to do the thing that they enjoyed, they did well, and that brought them meaning. What do you think it was for him that brought him so much joy driving? Was it going to all these different locations? Was it feeling helpful? Was it something else?   Renee Borgelt (06:16) I'm not quite sure. Just like I said, that's all he ever wanted to do, you know, is just to drive. He enjoyed driving. He wasn't a long-haul driver. He usually drove locally. He hauled a lot out of like saw mills and stuff. But he just loved it, right? That was his thing. And he had had an episode a couple of days prior to this happening, where I believe he had another stroke.   And that led to, you know, he had, I think, just given up at that point. Um, so yeah, I mean, there, there were signs, definitely there were signs there, obviously, you know, you know, hindsight's 2020, right? You know, we wish we could go back and, you know, when we, when we see those signs that, but, you know, you just, you never think, you know, and anybody that knew my husband knew that he wasn't, you know, that just wasn't his character, right? Like he was the happy-go-lucky guy that everybody loved and wanted to be around, you know, and so it wasn't in his character. So that's not something you just would have thought that he would do, you know? So, but, sorry, go, no, go ahead.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:32) How did you find peace with the new reality after he left?   Renee Borgelt (07:45) It took a little bit. So like I was saying to you earlier, I wasn't sure, honestly, I wasn't sure I was going to stay, right? Like I, I didn't know how to live without him. We had been together since I was 16 years old, and I never knew an adult life without him. And, I was seriously, you know, not in a good place. And my daughter, my youngest daughter, said to me, she said, " You know, Mom, your life is worth living, right? And that was, that was the first time since he had passed. That was probably about a month in that I was like a light bulb moment, right? Like, wow. Cause I had basically lived my life for my kids and my husband, you know? And so, I was like, okay, I'm, know, I've got to figure out how to heal myself. My husband didn't leave me in a great spot financially. So therapy was out. And I'm the unique girl, know, the circle that don't fit in the square. So I was like, I don't think group therapy is going to work for me either. And so I'm like, I have to figure this out. And so I just started to deep dive into meditation and journaling. And I would go sit in nature, and I would journal, and I would cry. And what I was discovering is, is the more I went into meditation, then I, that's when I started making a connection with my spirit guides and they were giving me messages. And the first message they ever give me is what heals you will heal others. And somehow instinctively, I just knew that was going to be, lead me to my purpose. Why I had to go through everything that I went through and.   That just ended up taking me on a whole other journey that I never, ever expected. Ever.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:39) What heals you heals others.   That's crucial. And I can share with you that I've explored so many types of forms of looking after ourselves on this show, but it's very occasionally that someone has explored grief in this way. So I wanted to really hold that. And I wanted to start now asking, what do you want anyone to know if they think they might end up in a situation like yours, what do you want people to know first?   Renee Borgelt (10:17)   Basically, what I've learned through my journey has been about two and a half years. And what my biggest takeaway from all of this is, is that the things that we go through in life aren't happening to us. They're happening for us. And that was a pivotal moment for me when my guides were like, Renee, you're not, this isn't happening to you. You know, you had to go through all of this and, it.   And it led back to the day that I really, besides that message, then about a couple of weeks had went by and I had went into meditation, and I didn't get any messages that day, which was a little unusual. But as I came out of meditation, my husband had sent me a song. Cause my guides, that's what they had been doing. They'd been sending me messages and songs, and I could tell that it was from him, and he sent me that song, If You Could Turn Back Time And I could hear it playing on loop in my head. And it was like this light bulb went off in my mind, and I just sat, and I sobbed because it was like, no, we couldn't turn back time. And even if we could, I couldn't because this was what I had to go through in life, so that I could help other people. And that was the moment that I knew for sure, then this was my purpose in life to go through what I went through to help others.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:47) Do you perceive that other losses that people are going through can lead them to a role or a purpose of guiding other people after any sort of loss?   Renee Borgelt (12:02) Absolutely, absolutely, right? Like, you know, I've now been online and, you know, I'm on TikTok live four nights a week, and I'm on there, and I'm helping people through loss. And, you know, that's my goal, you know, is to just help people and to make people realise that, like I said, everything in life is about your perspective and how you look at it, right? And you can look at it that you know, everything that you're going through is, poor me, it's happening to me. Or you can go, no, you know, it happened for me. And what lesson can I learn from this? And how can I use it to be a better person or to help somebody else? Right?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:48) Absolutely. Did you find any sense of community in any form after all of this?   Renee Borgelt (12:56) Oh yes, I have a huge community actually online. I'm on like what, five platforms. So I have a huge community right now. I think I'm up to almost 18,000 followers at this point. hopefully I'll just keep climbing, right? Cause the more people, the more followers, the more I get my word out there that, one, you're not alone. That's the biggest thing, I want people to know that they're not alone. And   If I can get through it, anybody can get through it. You know, like I said, 32 years of my life just crumbled in the blink of an eye. And my, my ultimate goal is, is one for somebody to never, ever hopefully have to go through what I went through, you know, if I can prevent that. And then second, you know, is just being able to, there's so many people that are stuck.   You know what I mean? Like they lose somebody like I did. I, you know, I didn't know where I was going or, you know, and, know, my goal is to be able to help people not only through loss and to heal that loss, but to take it full circle and healing as far as, know, like somebody like me, okay, I don't, didn't have a life to go back to, right? That door closed that day he made that choice. And so to be able to help people go, okay, I healed, but what's the next step?   Right? You know, what is your passion? What is your goal? Where are you going to go from here? And so that's kind of my goal at this point.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:29) Your purpose is such a part of your next step that is crucial because especially you were so focused on your family and now you have space to support other people beyond family. And I'm curious, what have you found that your community normally needs on a normal day?   Renee Borgelt (14:55) Like I said, mostly number one is just for people to know they're not alone. I get online and to know that what they're feeling is okay sometimes. When you go through a loss and a lot of these feelings come up, and I was talking to a lady the other day about, I think she had lost her son. He had taken his life.   And she said, you know, she was angry with him, but at the same time, she was upset with herself for being angry with him. You know, and that's one of the things that I teach, you know, when I'm, when I'm online is that, you know, even if it doesn't make sense to the outside world, your feelings are still valid, right? You know, I was angry with my husband for a long time. I worked through, you know, the loss and the guilt pretty quickly, but the anger, the anger stuck around, you know, until last summer, it was last fall before I finally was able to, to journal to him and to say, you know, I forgive you, I forgive you for leaving me. And, you know, here's the thing: I know that he wasn't in a good place. You know, you know, that logically, right? That's the logical mind, right? Saying that, you know, I know where you were, but the heart says something different, right? Just like that, mother, her heart is longing for her son, and she's angry that she no longer can hug him. But the logic in us says, well, that's wrong, but it's not. And so that's what I do. I get on and I tell people, it's okay, you're not alone. And it's okay to feel what you feel. Your feelings are valid. But my biggest thing is, is, you my grandma always told me, she said, you know, there's two types of people, there's those that, those that make excuses, and there's those that find a way, you know, and I could have laid in my bed for a year and a half and said, you know, feel sorry for me, and I lost my husband and my whole world. And, but instead, you know, where would that have gotten me, right? You know, it's just easier to get up, you know, and I tell people all the time, it's okay to have a moment.   Maybe you have 10 moments through the day, you know, but it's about not unpacking and living there, getting up and, okay, what am I gonna learn from this, changing your perspective and keep moving forward.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:21) You keep moving forward. So part of what anyone can do is have a moment and then get up.   Renee Borgelt (17:29) Yep.   I know that sounds harsh, but that was my grandma's thing, you know?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:30) Sometimes... No!   It reminds me of that old phrase, pick up your measured walk.   Renee Borgelt (17:37) That's when my grandma always used to say, " Have your pretty party, girly. Now pick up your pull-up your big girl pants, and let's go."   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44) Yes, pull up your big girl pants. Do you find there's a discipline in that? In just saying, okay, you can feel the feelings now, get up anyway.   Renee Borgelt (17:47) Right.   Yes, yes. Yep. Cause you have a purpose here. Everybody has a purpose here. You know, maybe mine is to touch thousands of people, but maybe somebody else's is just to touch one purpose, but that doesn't make their purpose any less than mine. Right. And so, you know, if you're still here and you're kicking and you're breathing, you have a purpose in this life. So, you know, have your moments, but keep going, keep going. Cause your life is important. And that's the other thing is reminding people that their life is important too.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:23) Just keep going. Do you find that structure helps in the day when you are keeping this discipline within your purpose?   Renee Borgelt (18:32) Yes. Yes. For sure.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:35) How do you make that happen and stick with it?   Renee Borgelt (18:40) I just ever since then, I'm a big meditation girl. So, you know, I get up, I do my meditation. Part of that for me is like I said, you know, I talked to my guides, and so Daily, I'm putting out messages that I get from my guides. So that's that, you know, the first thing I do I get up, I do my meditation You know, and I focus on like I said, okay What do I got to do to you know to be a better me today, you know, than I was yesterday and who can I help today? So that keeps me going every day.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:13) That question at the start of the day, you ask, " Who can I help today?   Renee Borgelt (19:19) Yep. Yep.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:21) That is significant because we live in a culture and a world where people are normally just wondering what can they get for themselves in a day. So it sounds like part of why it elevates your purpose is to return to a service mindset.   Renee Borgelt (19:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. If you always go back to my thing is gratitude, you know, on the days where I am struggling, I go back to gratitude. I write in my gratitude journal. And then that always, you know, refocuses me back to, let's do this. Who can we help?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:58) But let's do this. It's amazing. And do you get any community aside from your followers online? Anything local?   Renee Borgelt (20:01) Thank you.   I haven't really, my kids and I are starting a foundation for my husband. We haven't quite got that off the ground yet, but that's in the works. We got our mission statement, and our board figured it out. We just got to get all of the, you know, the ins and outs of the legal stuff figured out. But yeah, we're in the works for that, so.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:28) That's amazing. Tell me more about that.   Renee Borgelt (20:31) Basically, we just, it's going to be called the doors always open, and it's going to be a suicide foundation, outreach for the community. One of our big goals is to start young, right? We have so many youth that are, that are checking out on us, you know, because they just, they feel alone, right? They don't feel like they don't have anybody. And so one of our goals is to, to get into the schools, you know, and to start young and say, look, you know,   You change somebody's story. And that's what I think people don't realise is, you know, when you're in that bad place, you don't realise you think that you're taking away your pain, but you don't realise that you're changing somebody's story. Like my husband, he didn't just change my story. He changed my kids' story, my grandkids' story, you know, his friends' story, you know, and to be able to get, you know, if we can get into the schools and start young and, and, and say, look, you're not alone, you know, and maybe you feel alone now, but, you know, you won't always feel alone, and you won't always be in this place. You know, there is hope.   But just being there for communities and being a safe place for people to go if they are struggling. And so they know that they're not alone. So that's our goal.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:48) What things do people need to keep in mind when they are supporting someone who is heading in that direction? I know that they need to be very mindful of how they approach it. What do people need to know?   Renee Borgelt (22:03) Well, just being aware, that's the biggest thing. In my husband's case, in a little bit, I was aware, but at the same time, I guess I didn't realise how bad he was struggling, right? And a lot of times you hear people say, they put on a smile, but there are little signs that they like to leave. And so just be aware of those signs. And if you see them, be supportive, but here's the thing, too is, ou know, maybe they need some help, get them some help. You know, that's the big thing, to lead them in the right direction and always just so they know they're not alone, you know, and that they are worthy and their life is worth, you know, worth living. And, you know, as I said, they would change somebody's story, and they would be missed. You know, I get online every day, and I tell people you would be missed, you know, somebody will miss you.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:00) Someone will. Yes. So the books. We want to be mindful of how some listeners could be more or less spiritual, but it's a good time to ask, what do you talk about in the books?   Renee Borgelt (23:05) Yes.   Okay, so my first book is just gonna be a compilation of the last two and a half years of the messages that I got from my guides. And they're just positive, uplifting messages. That's the first one. And then the other book is going to be, it's called My Journey Back to Myself. And it just, it talks about my story and where it's kinda led me.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:40) Going through the story. That's really crucial. The positive messages in the first book are those little bite-sized things? How do you think someone will, how do you know that someone might benefit the most from consuming that? Will it be an affirmation at the start of the day that they read into the next one, or is it something else?   Renee Borgelt (24:02) It could be something like that, right? Because they're all different, right? So one day it's just, it's like a life lesson for you. And then the next day, it's just a little bit of inspiration. So maybe it's something where they can just go through, like you said, every day and pick something out that just resonates with them, right? That's the message that they need to hear. Because that's what I believe. I believe everything in life happens for a reason, right?   And so, if you're opening this book, the right message is going to pop out at you at the right time when you need it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:36) You'll see what you need to see. We've all had that moment when a song plays nearby, or we see a chunk of a book at the right time. So people see what they need to see.   Renee Borgelt (24:38) Yep.   Yep, exactly. And I believe the divine, whatever it is you believe, like I said, puts that right in your view, right when you need it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:01) Absolutely, absolutely. Was that connection with some sort of divine crucial for your healing?   Renee Borgelt (25:10) Absolutely, absolutely, every day. And they're the ones that guide me. I live my life now. When it first started, they are like, you need to put these messages out to the world. And I was like, OK. And so I was just, at the time, just kind of fooling around with Facebook Live. And I put it out there. And then my guides are like, no, no, no. You need to be doing reels every day.   I'm very technologically challenged. So I was like, I don't even know how to do a reel. And so that first Christmas, I went to Christmas with my kids, and I said to my granddaughter, she was a preteen at the time. And I said, " Can you help Grandma figure out how to do a reel? Cause I don't know what I'm doing. And so she's, she showed me how to do a reel. And of course, my guides were still, you know, they were nudging me. They were like, Renee, you need to be getting your story out there.   And I was like, yeah, yeah, I don't know if I want to do this, right? You know, I was leery. So come January then, because they're very persistent. If you know anything about spirit, they're persistent. So come January, I started putting reels out on Facebook and Instagram. And then February came around, and they're like, now you need to be on TikTok. And I'm like, I don't know how to be on TikTok. And so my daughter had a baby in March. And so I dragged my feet till March, and then all my grandkids were at my house in March when my daughter had her baby. So I said, Hey, how about you guys help grandma start a TikTok? And they were thrilled, right? They had like six grandkids in my living room, all excited, you know? And so they helped me get on TikTok. And then that July, that's when my guide's like, okay, now you're ready. Now you need to be going live on TikTok. And I started going live four nights a week, and I've been doing four nights a week for two years.   And it's been the biggest, not only a blessing for me, right? Because it's funny, I always tell my followers, I'm the guinea pig here, right? My story is out there. Everybody knows my life. It's an open book. But when I get on Lives and whatever it is I'm talking about that night, because a lot of times I have a topic that my guide will give me and whatever I'm talking about is usually either something that I've been through that she's walked me through, or she's like, okay, you're not getting it. So you're going to tell everybody else how to get it. So you get it, too, right? So I'm the resident guinea pig. That's what I always say, you know, because I'm learning right along with everybody else, you know, at times, you know, so it's beneficial for me and them.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:45) This is telling me so much about how to talk to a community. Everybody can learn about how to share more about their experiences. You are guiding your followers through your learning journey, and it's not about having reached your destination.   Renee Borgelt (28:06) No, that's one of probably the biggest lessons too, I've learned is it's not about the destination. It's about the journey getting there. Yep.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:15) Absolutely. And I'm sensing a lot of freedom from perfectionism in all of this, and not worrying about being an expert in vertical videos instantly, not worrying about having all of the answers, letting yourself be the guinea pig. Was that crucial? Freeing yourself from perfectionism.   Renee Borgelt (28:35) Yes, and that was one of my lessons. That was a lesson to me, actually, because I'm very much an A personality, right? I like to have things, and I like to be prepared. And my guides like to keep me on my toes. The day of, I'll be like, hey, I still don't know. Because I rely on them. They tell me what I'm going to talk about. And then depending on when I get online, if I talk about that, if somebody's got a loss and that takes precedent, we talk about that.   You know, they'll lead me right up to 10 minutes before I'm going to go live and be like, okay, you know, and then they give me a topic. But yes, that's been very crucial for me, especially putting out my videos every day, because you know how you are, you know, it's like, I'll start it, and then I'll say something wrong. And it's like, okay, take one, you know, and there's been times I've been up to 12 takes. So it's like, and my guides are like, Renee, no, this isn't the point, you're missing the point, right? The point is getting the message out and being real with it.   You know, and there are days where it's like, I'll read what the message they give me, and it's not completely perfect. And I've learned now it's okay. Just hit next and post it because that's what makes me relatable to people is, you know, I'm just Renee. I'm just Renee, like I said, trying to do better than the person I was yesterday and trying to help somebody. And yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:57) Don't do loads of takes and try to make it perfect. Just get anything out there.   Renee Borgelt (30:03) Yep, just get it out there. Get your voice out there. That's more important than anything perfect you could put out there.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:09) Say anything. I completely agree, and I saw a freedom from perfectionism to some extent when I used to talk to groups a lot in person, and I knew it would go how it goes. But what you are saying is very crucial because, actually I was collaborating with someone who wanted every word to be precisely perfect, and the words will flow, and the audience will connect when you just let go. Do you think?   Renee Borgelt (30:51) Yep.   Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yeah. There's, for instance, last week I was doing, I did my live, and we had decided I was going to invite my girlfriend on, and we were just going to have some real talk between the two of us. And I just hit the live button, and we lost power. We were in the middle of a blizzard and I couldn't see my notes that my guides give me. So it was like, you know what? We're just going to go with this, right?   And, that's the thing is people don't, people don't want a script. They want you to be real, you know, they relate to you because you are real, and you know, they can relate to your story or something that you went through because you're a real person, right? There's nights I get on, you know, and I have my hair in a bun, you know, I'm not always perfect because after my husband passed, I had to work two jobs, you know, and I'm exhausted, and I'm getting on a live an hour a night after that, you know, and   My hair is always dirty; I don't care. But you know, I told my guides, I'm like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to be the authentic me. Right. And so sometimes, you know, you just get what you get, but at the same time, I'm still here. I'm still doing it. I'm still showing up. You know, that's the point, show up anyway.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:09) You are showing up online, and you have two jobs. This is significant because, honestly, I'll share with you that I nearly got to the point of thinking I'm exhausted. There is so much going on. How much do I really want to be doing? And then I end up in a conversation like this one, and it reminds me, okay. This is why I keep doing something, doing this, but what you are showing is you had two jobs, you were exhausted, you were probably still in a phase of your grief as well. You had duties and emotions, and there's a serious physical depletion going on, and you still show up.   Renee Borgelt (32:49) Mm-hmm. Yep.   Yep. Exactly. 'Cause that's what you do, you know? And there was days, like I said, not only did I have two jobs, I was working 20 to 28 days straight, both jobs. And I would get online anyway, you know, I'd come home completely exhausted. And my guy's like, have a rest cause you're going to get on, you know, and you just do. And the thing is, I might've been exhausted when I started.   But it was so invigorating by the time I get off. If I touch that one person, because that's my goal, right? Every night, if I can just touch one person or plant a seed with one person, that their life is important or that they're not alone, right? Then it's worth it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:43) Absolutely. That's why everybody should be doing something like this. To the listeners out there, I actually want to show more people how easy it is to show up in the form that feels right. I like the longer conversations like this. I love talking to people like you. And the podcast, though, although it takes a few tools, it's so easy to put a podcast out.   I took so long. I mean, it's easier now.   Renee Borgelt (34:15) Well, look at me. I didn't even know how to do a TikTok, you know, but you just you figure it out as you go, you know.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:15)   No, I think so. Have you been in other podcast episodes aside from this one?   Renee Borgelt (34:27) I have a good friend who talks about serious things like suicide. So we kind of touched on that once with her about a year and a half ago. But otherwise, you're my first.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:38) That's awesome. I'm so glad for that. And you can go on so many others. I don't know if you found me on threads, but I get so many people on threads and you know, there are podcasts out there, but the reason why everybody should share their stories and, create space for storytelling is because everybody has an experience.   That's an example that we can learn from. And what you said today goes so much deeper and is so much more tangible than just reading a textbook.   Renee Borgelt (35:10) Yes. Right. And I love how you said that everybody has an experience because you know, maybe something that I say doesn't resonate, but something you says to somebody will, right? Because of how somebody else says it, or they resonate with their personality. So just because I'm doing it doesn't mean that somebody else shouldn't be doing it too. Right. Because I'm going to have people resonate with me, and they'll have people that resonate with them. So share your voice anyway. Right.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:49) And you never know who you will reach. Where exactly are you, somewhere in America, I trust.   Renee Borgelt (35:56) Right now I'm in Iowa. I'm sitting in Iowa at the moment. It's not my favourite place, but you know, I'm starting over. I'm learning how to put my life back together.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:05) I know the feeling a lot, and I feel so inspired by you, even though you are where you are, you trust that you can start over and see where that leads. Are you trusting in the unknown a bit and saying it could end up wherever it ends up?   Renee Borgelt (36:23) I just know, and I guess I hadn't told you that part. I've had visions of my future, so I kind of have an idea where I'm going. You know, they don't tell me everything, but I have an idea where I'm going. But yes, I've just learned, I learned to stop having that tug, right? That tug of war with the divine God, universe, whatever it is that you believe, right? I stopped having that tug of war because, you know, like I said, I dragged my feet and I dragged my feet, and then they're like, and then I ended up doing it anyway, you know? And I wouldn't even be here where I'm at with my followers, and you know, I don't even think of them as followers. A lot of them are my family, right? Like I talk to them on a daily basis, and we message, and you know, but I wouldn't have that had I not listened, right? Had I not just went with the flow. And so that's kind of where I'm at, you know? I honestly, I just wait for that next step.   And I just actually, the reason why I came back to, I'm in Iowa, is because this is where my husband passed, and I had one piece of my healing journey that was left. And I was struggling really bad with PTSD and flashbacks of that day. And my guide said, "You have to go back and do full-circle healing." And so I came back and I literally walked back through that day and, like I tell everybody you have to feel it to heal it and that's not sadly That's why a lot of people don't heal is because they don't want to feel that again, you know But you do you have to like I say all the time you have to walk through that storm and You know, you don't get the rainbow without the storm usually or the rain, right? And so I came back, and I walked through that healing, and my flashbacks are better   They actually, my guides actually replaced the flashback with another vision for me of him. And I had a complete piece come over me that I've never had in my entire life. And it was the moment I've never had. And ⁓ now I'm, you know, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to open that next door. I'm ready to start that next chapter, finally. So that's why I'm here.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:40) I asked earlier about making peace with the new reality, and it sounds like part of how you did that was going back to where everything happened and not avoiding it.   Renee Borgelt (38:58) Yes, that's extremely important. I talk about that a lot, you know, when you're avoiding it, you're shoving it under a rug, basically, so to speak. And I tell people, you know, you can shove it under the rug for so long, but eventually you're going to trip over that rug. You know, and that was in a way I was avoiding that part of it because, you know, I wasn't sure how I was going to heal that part, right? Like, how do you replace what you've seen?   You know, and I came back and like I said, I walked through that. That was a crucial part of my healing. And it was crazy because two days after I walked through that, I was sitting here and I said, OK, you brought me back to do this. And I did it. So what's the next step? And then, you know, that next step is just appearing. And like I said, I just have faith, and I go with what they tell me. And I.   I just wait for the next step. I don't look towards what, I know what the future is gonna hold a little bit, like I said, and I know what I want it to hold, but I also know that it's not my plan. And I just take it day by day. And one of the other lessons I learned is just being present, right? Being grateful and present in the moment each day. Yesterday's gone, we can't redo it, and tomorrow's not here yet. So just be present and be grateful and find your joy today. And whatever tomorrow brings, tomorrow brings.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:31) Tomorrow will be what it will be. What are any final words of wisdom that anyone who is listening needs to keep in mind? And before you answer that question, do want to add the disclaimer. I think, okay, I will definitely add a few things in the notes because this is a deep topic, and AI will help me to put the right things in about where people can go if they need help. In Australia, people normally say call Lifeline. So in that sense, is there anything that where you are, people should do if they think they need help?   Renee Borgelt (41:15) Just reach out to somebody. That's my thing, right? Just anybody, anybody, if you know if you're struggling, find somebody there, somebody will listen, right? You know I have I have a guy on my TikTok here, a couple of months ago, that he had lost his wife, and he was struggling, and I spent the whole hour just talking to him and telling him that you know, his life was important, and you know, and one of the other big takeaways is, you know, mean what you say, right? So if you tell somebody, you know, I had a lot of people tell me when my husband passed, you know, hey, if you need somebody, reach out. And I actually did that. And that's hard for me because I'm not one of those people that, you know, like to ask for help. And I did reach out to two people, you know, and they kind of were like, like, what are you reaching out to me for? You know, and so   Mean what you say. know, if you tell somebody, hey, I'm here for you, mean it. Right. That's really important.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:18) I agree. I agree. And there's a potential for a balance in this. I know that people feel overwhelmed. People have a lot happening in life, but we need to be there if someone needs to turn to someone in the moment, if it reaches that point, and it's crucial.   Renee Borgelt (42:41) It is crucial.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:43) It is, it is. So sure, be overwhelmed. Sure. But show up for people anyway, because it could be necessary.   Renee Borgelt (42:55) Well, and here's the thing, you don't have to, you I'm not saying you have to get on TikTok like me every night. You know what I mean? Showing up can be opening the door for somebody, you know, giving somebody a smile. And those first couple of weeks when I lost my husband, you know, I could have fallen apart at the drop of a hat, you know, standing in line at the grocery store, and just a smile from somebody meant a lot to me at that time, right? Saying hello to the cashier or giving somebody a compliment. Somebody could be having the worst day of their life, and you don't know it, and you say, " Your hair looks really pretty today. That could be their lifeline. You never know what somebody's going through. Just a small act of kindness goes a long way.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:41) It really does. Renee, thank you for sharing your truth.   Renee Borgelt (43:46) Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:48) It has been such a gift and a privilege to create space for such an honest, real story. I appreciate how you have put the time in, and you shared details about an experience that was not easy, and how you are finding your next chapter afterwards. And I wanted to congratulate you for that.   Renee Borgelt (44:15) Thank you so much.    

  The Motivate Collective Podcast — Show Notes Episode: The Psychology of Eating — Breaking the Habits That Keep You Stuck Guest: Dr Denise THINKS Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson Episode Summary Dr Denise THINKS — a food psychology expert with a PhD in educational psychology — joins Melanie to unpack the hidden patterns, conditioning, and emotional loops driving our eating behaviours. From the neuroscience of autopilot eating to the role of Big Food in engineering addiction, this conversation is equal parts eye-opening and immediately actionable. Dr Denise shares how she reversed her own health challenges — fibroids, adult acne, deteriorating vision, and joint pain — through changing what she ate, and why awareness (not willpower) is always the first step. Guest Bio Dr Denise THINKS is a food psychology educator, researcher, and speaker based in the United States. Holding a PhD in educational psychology, she specialises in helping individuals break unconscious eating patterns and reconnect with food as a tool for health and vitality. She runs a 13-week step-by-step program and regularly speaks on stage and in community settings. Her work sits at the intersection of behavioural science, nutrition awareness, and personal transformation. Key Topics Covered The psychology of eating and mindless habits. What food psychology actually means — and how the food industry has spent decades pairing foods with activities (movies + popcorn, commutes + fast food) to create automatic behaviours we barely notice. Breaking autopilot with tiny disruptions. Inspired by Dr Brian Wansink's research, Dr Denise explains why doing small things differently — getting out of bed on the opposite side, brushing teeth with your non-dominant hand, taking a new route to work — can rewire your brain's defaults and interrupt unhealthy food loops. Sugar as addiction. Research suggests that sugar is more addictive than cocaine. Dr Denise explains how food scientists deliberately engineer products to hit the addiction threshold without tasting overtly sweet — and how corporate-funded studies have historically obscured this. The screen time–eating connection. The average person spends four hours a day scrolling. Dr Denise connects digital overconsumption with distracted eating, discussing James Clear's Atomic Habits framework on environment design and why the couch faces the TV — always. Food, fibroids, and reversing disease. Dr Denise shares her personal story: fibroids the size of tennis balls, adult acne, buckling knees at 29, worsening vision — all traced back to diet. After shifting to a plant-based lifestyle, she reports reversal of arthritis symptoms, clearing skin, and improved eyesight without glasses. The emotional root of cravings: Why reaching for a doughnut is rarely about hunger. Dr Denise unpacks the emotional drivers behind cravings and why food can never permanently fill a psychological void. Cooking at home and reclaiming flavour from oyster mushrooms as fried chicken substitutes to the tamari and maple syrup combo Melanie swears by, this episode gets practical about how to make whole, plant-based food genuinely delicious. Belief, desire, and expectancy. Dr Denise closes with her framework for any goal — not just food. You need to believe you can reach it, desire it deeply enough to stay consistent, and expect that you deserve the outcome. Timestamps TimeTopic00:00Introduction — what is food psychology?00:54Mindless eating and conditioned food habits02:05How to break autopilot patterns at home05:32Free food, workplace habits, and saying no07:10Consuming content vs. taking action08:41Average screen time — four hours a day09:13Phone addiction by design10:11Sugar vs. caffeine vs. alcohol — which is most addictive?11:32Hidden sugar in savoury foods13:15Cooking demonstration — the oil absorption experiment16:16Dr. Denise's personal health journey and plant-based shift17:23Fibroids, weight gain, and the decision to go deeper20:17What is a fibroid?21:47The problem with "just cut it out" medicine23:45The flavour comes from the plants — mushroom and tofu cooking tips26:03When professionals say "just eat anything"29:35Who funds nutrition research?32:12Charity fundraising and the food culture contradiction35:03Working with children and community groups36:29What Dr. Denise teaches first on stage — awareness over swaps38:35Popcorn, movie theatres, and distracted eating (the Wansink study)40:16James Clear, Atomic Habits, and environment design41:45Tiny changes that make healthy habits hard to fail43:56Dr. Denise's path into food psychology51:55Tapping into internal joy rather than external stimulation55:33Three closing lessons: belief, desire, expectancy Guest Mentions & Resources Dr Brian Wansink — Food lab at Cornell University; research on distracted eating and the five-day-old popcorn study James Clear — Atomic Habits; environment design and habit stacking Google Scholar — Recommended starting point for peer-reviewed, unsponsored nutrition research Dr Denise's 13-week step-by-step program — Available via Dr Denise's platform (link in bio) Quotable Moments "The food scientists know just exactly how much sugar to put in a product to make you addicted to it, but not make it sweet at the same time." — Dr Denise "Your body keeps record. It's going to tell you straight up, black and white." — Dr Denise "If you have to get something from outside of yourself to enjoy life, that's the wrong kind of mentality." — Dr Denise "I want you to enjoy your life instead of just consuming enjoyable things." — Melanie "I don't even bring up food for a while. There's so many other things outside of us that drives our behaviour toward food."— Dr Denise Key Takeaways Awareness is the foundation of change — not willpower, not a new diet plan. Your environment is programming your habits. Redesign it intentionally. Sugar functions like a drug in the body and is hidden in foods you'd never expect. Emotional and psychological patterns drive cravings more than hunger does. Small, almost-impossible-to-fail changes compound into lasting transformation. Belief, desire, and expectancy are the internal architecture of every sustainable goal. Connect with Dr Denise [Insert Dr Denise's website, Instagram, and program links here] Connect with The Motivate Collective 🎙️ Listen and subscribe: www.motivatecollective.com 🌿 Join the community for conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com #TheMotivateCollective #FoodPsychology #WellnessPodcast #ConsciousLiving #MindsetShift #PersonalDevelopment #HealthAndWellness #PlantBased #HabitChange #AtomicHabits #SugarAddiction #EatingPsychology #GrowthMindset #WomenWellness #ConsciousLeadership   Transcript Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00) Dr Denise, welcome to the podcast. Dr Denise THINKS (00:03) Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:05) It's such a privilege. You are a food psychologist. What does that involve? Dr Denise THINKS (00:11) All right, well, let me clarify something. I'm not a psychologist because that means license basically, but I do have my PhD in educational psychology and research, and I have a focus on the psychology of eating. And so basically what that means is I help people think outside of the box when it comes to their food and how we look at food, because we do a lot of mindless eating, right? So I help kind of interrupt those patterns that no longer serve people. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:44) patterns, right? What sorts of patterns are getting in our way with the gap between what we know we should be doing and what we are doing? Dr Denise THINKS (00:54) That's a great question. It's really interesting, with this work that I do. So I look, I like to look at things that are things that just the world has shown us what goes together. So when I think about, you know, watching TV or a movie, what goes with that snacking and eating popcorn, right? Just things that the industry, the food industry, has taught us to kind of marry together, and we just automatically just kind of go down that rabbit hole and be like, okay, that's normal. It may be normal, but it's not necessarily okay, but it can get us into trouble, right? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:33) Right, so it sounds like the foods have been paired with other habits in our lives or other activities, and what do you do to normally overcome that? Do you recommend that people attribute or combine a different food or a different habit with these activities, like going to the movies? Dr Denise THINKS (01:58) Yeah, so I mean, just if anyone notices that they want to feel better, for one, obviously, it's typically linked to food and the different patterns that they are probably doing without even realising it. There's a great book by Dr Brian Wansink, I think, W-A-N-S-I-N-K. He has a food lab at Cornell University, and he just kind of basically breaks it down to where you want to think about doing things opposite, because we have gotten to a space where we do things on autopilot. We get out of bed the same way. We may go right to the bathroom, and then most people go to the kitchen to drink coffee. Well, as far as me and my studies, and I'm trying to break someone's pattern, I'm just saying, okay, do everything opposite. All right. Get out of bed on the other side of the bed. Even if you have someone lying with you, just say, excuse me, I'm running an experiment. Let me just get out of autopilot for a second. Let me get my brain neurons just kind of firing for a little bit. If you go right to the bathroom, that's fine. Do what you got to do. We're not saying hold it and do something else. But if you're brushing your teeth, I say brush your teeth with your opposite or non-dominant hand. And what that actually does, it actually kind of makes you pay attention because if you are brushing your teeth, for me, my non-dominant hand is my left hand. And if you kind of hit the curves a little bit wrong, it's going to hurt. So you got to pay attention. And that's the point of it. It's going to be uncomfortable. And that's going to make you actually pay attention to what you're doing instead of just the same old grass or groundhog day, like, okay, I'm brushing my teeth. I'm getting ready to do this next. So it's just all about interrupting any kind of normal routine that you normally do. Even if it's healthy for you. One more thing is like, you know, for a person that has a nine-to-five job and they go to work Monday through Friday, take a different route to work because you're seeing the same billboards every single time, and that's just more marketing and advertising. You're passing the same restaurants that you may go to after work because you need that little quick little snack, that little burger and fries or something like that before dinner time. So things of that nature just helps you get out of that typical routine is what I help do with the autopilot thinking. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:29) It sounds like changing the rest of the routine will change the food habits. That is joining so many dots for me. And I'm sure anyone who's listening can think of examples in their own lives, right? Where some things become automatic. I found myself going for a roll of sushi every single time I went to the gym, and I had to ask myself, this is becoming so consistent, but years ago, the unhealthy habits, there are some places where someone would get something a bit more fast food style. And I was going into the city where every place had pastries, a lot of pastries. And I bet you some people would be grabbing a pastry on the way to every single workday. Do you see people getting into those unhealthy habits where especially on the go when they're in a rush, they just grab something and they're not thinking about the calories or the impact. They just do it because it's there. Dr Denise THINKS (05:32) Yeah, like you just said, because it's there, right? A lot of times, like how many times can we say no at work maybe and it's a, you know, a three o'clock meeting and they're passing out donuts and you're not even full or you're, you're full and you're satisfied and then, but it comes by you and you're like, well, it's free. So I have to have one. We do those things so often, and most people, like you said, don't realise it. So. Yeah, it's all about just waking up and paying attention. And I know there's things out there like food diaries and journals and things of that nature. ⁓ But there are some other creative ways that I kind of like to bring about the awareness and whatnot. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:15) Do you find that taking action is going to create more momentum than just writing about a change in a diary or a journal? Dr Denise THINKS (06:26) I mean, I would say still writing about it is still a good start. It's taken some kind of action toward the direction of where you want to go for sure. Because a lot of times we can get caught up into consuming information instead of doing. And that's one of the challenges that I find with a lot of people that may follow me on social media. And some people even think just watching my videos, they're doing something truly beneficial for their bodies. And I'm like, well. In a way, yes, knowledge is great. However, you got to pair that with motion. know, anything people can do to go in that direction where they're actually doing the action of it, definitely a good start for sure. Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:10) Going to trust that approach could help us in all sorts of changes in our lives. Because a lot of people now, for example, are looking at videos about work, or videos about how to help ourselves with all sorts of things. And have you seen essentially a gap at times where people are consuming a lot of content about what they should be doing, and you know, they need to be taking more action? Dr Denise THINKS (07:38) Yeah, it's, mean, we all can kind of get caught up in scrolling, right? So I actually just kind of released a challenge to where I'm walking people step by step on how to get started and where to begin. And somewhere in the middle of it, you know, is around where people are saying to me, well, I just don't have the time. I've got... Family drama, I've got kids, I've got work, I'm trying to start my business and then trying to eat healthy, da da da. And I'm like, okay, no problem. Let's pause for a second, open up your phone to this particular area, and let's just see how much you're spending on scrolling through social media. And what do you think the average amount of time is for the average person to scroll? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:24) I could only guess the numbers because I haven't looked at mine in a while, and I don't know the average, but we can get accurate info because the phones do tell us the screen time. What did you find people are doing on their phones in a day? How much time? Dr Denise THINKS (08:41) Four hours. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:42) Four hours on the phone. Dr Denise THINKS (08:44) Yes, four hours, yes, between all of the naps. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:48) Is that between everything? And we should admit that some of this screen time could be things like this, recording a podcast, but we have to really check how much of it, and it's really easy to say, okay, was there an appointment and the rest of the time, what's going on on the phone? Is it just flicking through content? That's it's so much time in our lives. Do you think people really are addicted? Dr Denise THINKS (09:13) For sure. And it's created that way on purpose. Absolutely. Yeah, just like, you know, any other kind of drugs, smoking, which, actually, they say smoking is not an addiction. It's just a neuropath type something. can't remember what the name is. It's not an addiction. It's actually, I can't remember the terminology, but no, it's not an addiction because, and... Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:30) It's not an addiction. Dr Denise THINKS (09:39) The reason why they say it's not an addiction is because once a person stops smoking, there is no symptoms that happen. You don't get headaches, and you don't get any other kind of issues that happen when you get off of drinking alcohol or something like that. By terminology, it's not an addiction, but obviously it is addictive, right? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:01) Okay, addictions. Have you looked at what other things are addictions? You mentioned alcohol, and I'm curious about coffee as well. Dr Denise THINKS (10:11) Yes, coffee. That's definitely an addiction by term because when most people stop drinking coffee, they do get a whole lot of headaches and things of that nature. But I think a big part of it, and the number one addiction that I understand, is sugar. And in research, sugar is more addictive than cocaine, which, to me, when I found that out, I think is astounding. I think if we were looking at sugar, maybe 30 or 40 years ago, in research and maybe the food and drug regulation, we're kind of categorising it as a food. I don't think it would be able to be called a food because it truly is a drug. But the fact that FDA is in the same administration, that's also kind of interesting too. But yes, but sugar is. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:03) Okay, there's our clickbait. Sugar is a drug. And I can tell you that a few people, at least one, talked on the show a while ago about how sugar is hidden in so many foods we wouldn't expect. And I was grateful to receive a lemon pepper seasoning, a sort of powder seasoning. And I looked up the ingredients, and from what I remember, I think there was sugar added to that. Dr Denise THINKS (11:06) Yes, right. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:32) And so I might use that a little bit, but I have to be mindful that, okay, I need to really stick with what I know, which is making things from scratch. So I know what goes into it. Two questions stem from this. Firstly, do you find that when people make their own food, or if they know what someone else is putting into their food, making it from scratch, do you find that they have less hidden ingredients that they don't want? And the other question tied in with sugar is, did you find that some other sweet ingredients like maple syrup might be a bit more okay than using added sugars? Dr Denise THINKS (12:09) Great questions. I love those. Definitely people are definitely way more aware when they're cooking at home. So we've got to figure out a way to get back to that. And that is something that I do talk about in my 13-week step-by-step program. Because, like you said, sugar is in everything or almost everything and things that are not even meant to be sweet. The food scientists know just exactly how much to put in a product to make you addicted to it, but not make it sweet at the same time. So that alone just kind of tells you what's going on. So for sure, if someone is cooking, like I know one of my things that I became more cognizant about was I was trying not to eat as much oil. And so, but I love fried foods. I'm plant-based, I'm 100 % plant based. So I fry mushrooms now. And it's like, that took me off a wave of them fried chicken, right? And so the first time I fried some mushrooms, you know, we got the oil in the pan. of fact, this is my office back here. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:15) You can show for those watching the video, we can show the pan if you want to, and then we can just explain it for those who are listening on audio. So, is that a proper pot-shaped pan behind you? What do you use? You can bring it over to the camera if you want to. Why not? Dr Denise THINKS (13:34) So. Let's see, let's see, let's see. All right. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:38) We see like those demonstration shows. like this. I love those pans. So that's your frying pan. That's nonstick. Dr Denise THINKS (13:47) This is my Brian Pamplemore, Yeah, for sure. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:50) So it's deep for those who can't see, it's deep, what an inch or two maybe, so you can fit a lot of food in there. Dr Denise THINKS (13:57) Yes, for sure. Yes. And so, you know, when you're frying something, you pretty much want to have it covered from bottom to top. And when I took the five mushrooms out, I was like, what happened to all the oil that I poured in here? Yeah, yes. And I'm like, that's a lot of oil to ingest. And yes, there are better oils out there than canola and vegetable, which are the worst too. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:12) It's all soaked in like a sponge. Dr Denise THINKS (14:24) But even if it's avocado oil or grape seed oil or anything, that's still a lot of oil to put in your body. So just from that knowledge alone and actually seeing that connected with the emotion to it, that's what made me pull back a lot on a lot of my favourite foods. yeah. So definitely when people can see what's going on versus just ordering, yeah, they'll definitely be more aware. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:43) Yes. Dr Denise THINKS (14:51) able to stop. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:53) So much is coming out from this. I can tell you that my first step towards wellness was food, and I'm resonating with what you are saying so much. I discovered whole plant diets before the pandemic in the year or two before it. And I don't mind what everybody else will eat. We're all different. We all have our preferences. I'm not trying to convert the whole world, but I know what can work. And, and the thing about eating whole plants is you then end up exploring different ways to, for example, use the oils. Some people get a reusable spray to just have a little bit of oil on. I try to, if I'm frying something, I don't mind having a bit of oil just shallow in the pan and not completely letting something swim in oil. However, there are now the the air fryers. So then there's oven baking, but then how much oil are you pouring onto something before it goes into the oven, right? So we have all these habits. There are so many questions out of this. Did you find that switching to some sort of habits with the oil helped to Do you aim for moderation now? How do you handle that? Dr Denise THINKS (16:16) Man, that's a great question. I'm pretty, so I've been playing around with the whole plant-based lifestyle for almost 10 years now, I guess. So just a little bit of context. For me, I was raised on chitlins, pig feet, everything on the pig from the rooty to the tootie, right? If you guys could see her face right now, it's hilarious. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:46) Well, I'm not a TV presenter. I have too much expression. Okay, so you were raised eating basically the entire pig, nearly. Dr Denise THINKS (16:55) Absolutely. So when it comes to people thinking I'm judging them for not being vegan or plant-based, whatever, listen, I have no heaven or hell to put you in because I get it. I was addicted to all of those foods, and I thought it was normal, you know, until I, you know, came into some health challenges. I was like, it's connected to these foods. OK, but I still can't stop eating them. So. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:19) What was it for you? Was it weight? Was it something else? Dr Denise THINKS (17:23) Yeah, I was definitely gaining weight for sure. It was fibroids growing inside of me. had two of them the size of tennis balls. And so, yeah, I just couldn't understand why my stomach wouldn't go down and just bloating was easily for me and all these kinds of things. And, you know, the solution was to just cut them out. But I was like, let's go deeper and understand why they're there, how they got there, all that kind of stuff. And it's basically what we're consuming every day. Yeah, so to go from, and I'm sorry, I'm not even sure if I remember your original question. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:00) I think the question was, the original question was around habits, I think, but when you said you had health issues, look, this is my thing. I feel like this is so special because I can tell you the first time I was a guest on a podcast, I accidentally stumbled into talking about my health journey out of the blue. And I took it for granted. I think people need to hear about this. And I wanted to emphasise - some people feel like there are best selves on diets other than this one, and I'm not going to try to influence that, but you're saying that you had these fibroids. want to understand what a fibroid is, and to really get the common ground here, I can share with you that I very accidentally dropped what became 20 kilograms, and now it's more like 25, and it just happened. I didn't You know, people join programs, people track point, people do all these things. I just dropped weight accidentally by eating foods that was not well, foods that was real food and not junk. So I'm so curious about your health experience, partly with plants, but also just with eating real food and getting sensible with your habits. I'm guessing you would have been consuming other things aside from the entire pig being in you're in America, right? So you would have been surrounded by the junk foods, the fast food, all that was playing a part? Dr Denise THINKS (19:28) Correct, yes. A huge part, huge part. I mean, I played basketball in college. So, you know, I was in pretty good physical shape. And so I have the mentality that I can eat whatever I want to because I'll just work it off. And that's actually where more of the problems even started because, you know, doing the physicals in college, learning that I was anemic, and then we were trying to figure out why I'm anemic. And then it finally, finally traced back to the five words because I was bleeding so excessively and just like, all right, this is not my cycle. It went from one week to two weeks to three weeks and one month, and didn't even stop. So it was like, what's happening? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:17) Gosh, that's nearly biblical, and the fibroid is that. Does that feel a bit like a tumour? Is it like a lump? What is that Dr Denise THINKS (20:26) Sorry, yes, so fibroids are tumours, and they're, quote unquote, almost always benign, almost, which is a good thing, but it's still a tumour. And the way that it's treated by most people in the medical profession here is that it's just no problem, it's no big deal. mean, my doctor just kind of shrugged his shoulders, and I was asking all these questions and. 15 minutes in of me asking questions, he seemed to get a little bit irritated, and he was just like, just cut them out. And I was like, well, will they come back? And he was like, probably, it happens a lot, especially in Black women. So just come back, and we'll cut them out again. I'm just like, no, that does not sound right. That does not sound okay. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:04) I'm not! This is why some medical people hate me because it's controversial to want to... I'm getting wound up and passionate here. It's controversial to want to prevent something instead of literally just waiting until you have to cut out the tumour. It's controversial to want to prevent the habits that lead to reaching that point. And it's controversial to not just end up at the same place you were in again. Dr Denise THINKS (21:43) Exactly. Yes, that part. That part. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:47) That's what the doctor said to you, just you'll end up cutting out more tumours later. Dr Denise THINKS (21:51) Pretty much. And I actually get a lot of clients that come to me that have been down that road. One of my most challenging, I guess, clients had 16 tumours several years ago. Then, well, she wasn't my client then, but several years ago, she told me she had 16 tumours. And then multiple years later, she had 32. So they doubled, obviously. And, you know, and I was just telling her, know I had her write down everything that she ate for like two weeks. And I saw it in plain, in black and white. Like, this is the reason, this is part of it. And she didn't want to believe it. She had family members or one or two family members that went through the same thing, female cousins, and they were trying to tell her, as well as I was trying to tell her. But, you know, we, food is love. Food is how we express ourselves. Food is, it's cultural. Food is like almost everything to everybody. You know, it's the one thing that we all have in common, no matter where we live, no matter where we're from, no matter what we look like. Food is what we all have in common, right? Whether you can afford to eat or not. So she was just really, really tied to certain foods. And it's no secret why she keeps going in and out of the hospital. Well, fast forward later, and I was able to help her retrain her brain to look at food for what it is. It's either life or it's death. So now I've taught her to actually, there's a substitute for everything. Just like I said, I had a love for chicken, but I know what chicken does for me from an animal. So I just fry some oyster mushrooms. They're the same texture, same look, same crunch, same flavour. The flavour comes from the plants. So when people are like, no, I can never give up my meat. I'm like, listen, the flavour comes from these seasonings. know, it's not the meat itself. If you just ate the meat, it would be disgusting. All right. Like, no. So that's it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:45) Yes. It's plain. Okay, flavour. I'm so keen to add for those who have not tried, whether you are eating plant-based or not, you have to try this. Everybody get a tamari soya sauce, which is, I think, gluten-free from memory. Do you think it is as well? So, a gluten-free tamari soya sauce and maple syrup, those two ingredients together will change your life. That's a step one. Do you think so? Dr Denise THINKS (24:05) Yeah, it is. Wow. What kind of flavour does it give? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:17) It's like a teriyaki. And both of those ingredients, I think, burn pretty fast. So it will just have that sort of sweet umami teriyaki kind of quick-cook barbecue feel really quickly. Dr Denise THINKS (24:19) Okay, gotcha, okay. Wow. Wow, that seems amazing. And that just reminds me, it's like that's part of food psychology. We get so addicted to things because we remember how it tasted the last time. And just hearing you describe that was like, what can I make with that tonight? Like, you know? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:53) Okay. It is so easy. The quickest thing you can do is get a block of tofu. And if it's a firm tofu, do really thin strips and maybe heat those in the pan with a bit of oil or without oil and toss on those flavours. It will, a lot of people use that for a bacon feel without the bacon. But also you can, you can put that onto the mushrooms. So the other trick I saw for mushrooms is you have the mushrooms in a pan. My gosh, this is becoming a cooking show for a second. You have the mushrooms in a pan, and then they're frying for a bit. And then you put another pan on top to squish them, and then they improve the texture. Then I would, once you put the sauce on, it's going to cook really fast. So you want something to be pretty much cooked and ready to just heat and flavour and then toss it on the plate. Dr Denise THINKS (25:28) No! Yes, yes, yes, that's an amazing method. A lot of people use that to make a steak-like texture. So yeah, I was never a steak person, so I never really tried it. But yeah, that sounds really good though. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:03) But okay, so we could talk about the food methods all day. But I think we should pivot a little bit. One of the things that came to mind is that some people have the attitude, and I've seen this in some health professionals, some people have the attitude that eating anything is okay, or enough, sufficient. And although Eating anything is better than not eating. The concern I've had is more recently, some people from other fields who don't focus on food, they are saying just eat anything and back years ago, a fancy doctor was telling me eat whatever you want. That's a long time before I lost weight, I can tell you that. It was after I stopped eating just whatever I wanted. Skip the pies and cake. Dr Denise THINKS (26:55) Yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:56) And then changes happened. But the point is that I'm a little bit worried that professionals and experts are saying just eat anything, and that even translates to the processed foods. Some people are still choosing food from a packet that has added sugars, salt, and other ingredients. I'm wondering how do you approach the regular mainstream individuals and also the experts who are saying that attitude when we know from our personal experiences that after we changed our habits, our bodies changed. Dr Denise THINKS (27:36) Wow. Well, I mean, I would just have them look; the proof is always there. The numbers don't lie. How you feel doesn't lie. How you look doesn't lie either, you know? So I would just have them do some real, true soul searching and just say, how do you feel? And if you're questioning certain things, usually that's your intuition telling you that doesn't sound right. You know, and again, I shouldn't be so exhausted. Yes, if I have a family, if I have a job, if I have this and that, it's still not normal for your body to be so fatigued. And so your body keeps record, and it's going to tell you straight up, black and white, like if that's okay to keep eating X, Y, and Z, you know, it's just the proof is there. I'm a researcher. And so I look at the facts. And it's always, it always tells the story, right? So. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:31) Look at the facts. It's that simple. Look at the facts. Dr Denise THINKS (28:35) Yeah, yeah, wow, that's concerning. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:39) It is. Are there any go-to resources from yourself or from anyone else? Do you recommend any resources for people who need guidance for the first step essentials? Dr Denise THINKS (28:53) Um, sure. So, you know, if you want, if you're the type of person that can do your own research, um, I would just say, you know, cause I know this is the world of AI now. Um, and information is just some of it. It's not the greatest, as we just got through talking about. So if you're going to do your own research, make sure you know, maybe start at Google Scholar.com and look at the research that is peer-reviewed, unbiased and non-sponsored. Because if you remember, maybe 10 to 15 years ago, when a study came out and said, sugar is healthy. OK, what do you think? Who made that research? What do you think? Exactly, right? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:35) Who paid for it? You know, I need to find out later. I'll look it up. I'm so keen to know who paid for that. Dr Denise THINKS (29:43) I mean, you can just think of the top beverage companies in the world. So yeah, you know, it was from, yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:51) Wow, normally the step one don't have the soda, it's the easiest thing. Dr Denise THINKS (29:57) You know what, when we're so addicted, just think of a crack addict or a heroin addict. You know, they're looking for any kind of, you know, excuse to just continue on with the habits. And so if you love chocolate for one, for example, and there's a study that says, you know, chocolate is good for your heart, you're going to keep on eating it because you're like, wow, I love chocolate, and I'm doing something for my heart. So why not? You know, no, that's just everything is just taken out of context. And again, you have to look at who is benefiting from telling you this information, you know? One of my most interesting stints in college was my marketing professor. And he, this was 30 years ago, 30 plus, but he was one of the first people to have me aware of certain like food marketing and how it works. And so there was one company, I can't remember what it was, but it was an orange juice company, and they're pretty much all the same now. But this orange company had like on the carton, said, you know, heart healthy or good for your heart or something like that. Right. Now, obviously, the average person is going to think, OK, if I drink this juice, I'm doing something good for my heart. We'll know. Did it have what? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:10) So then have lots of it. So did people then drink lots of it, like have extra? Dr Denise THINKS (31:17) It was the number one orange juice company in the world for multiple years. So yes, in the world. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:21) in the world? Not in the world. Okay, let me guess. Was there sugar in the juice? Dr Denise THINKS (31:27) Of course, there was. I mean, you're not going to have something that tastes good and looks good and is the number one in the world if it doesn't have the addictive substance that we're talking about, right? So, plenty of added sugar, plenty, plenty. And so... Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:40) I did sugars. I'm sorry, I will stop face-palming because I'm just stunned by what these people have been doing. Dr Denise THINKS (31:51) Yeah, and so the interesting part about the whole thing that this is heart-healthy, it was basically some of the proceeds from your purchase go toward heart research. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:01) It had nothing to do with the ingredients. Dr Denise THINKS (32:04) Nothing at all. If anything, it made you worse just from drinking it. So yeah, sneaky stuff. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:12) That's why I'm so sceptical. People have good intentions. This has taken us in a very interesting direction because it's a slippery slope. Firstly, there are fundraising companies, charities, NFPs, not-for-profits that are trying to prevent some diseases, cancer, diseases, that sort of thing, where they might have a fun celebratory say morning tea fundraising program that they get everybody to do, do your own morning tea, that sort of thing. And on the surface, it might seem fine. And I think one cupcake in your year is no big deal, but they are not changing the food culture in doing that. It's just using the current food habits. then raise money to try to fix something that some of these foods are contributing to. And again, it's okay to eat a birthday cake, you know, we're not, we're still living life. But I wonder to what extent those programs are even talking about food. Have you seen sometimes very good-intentioned people who want to make a change? They have the opportunity to address the food factor a bit more. Dr Denise THINKS (33:33) Yeah, for sure. mean, yeah, I think a lot of people do have good intentions. And then, of course, there's also a lot of people that are not even thinking about it because they're in the same loop and cycle and trapped as everyone else. So it's just like, it's a birthday. OK, let's have cake. Let's have ice cream. Let's have all these other traditional things that we're used to. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, not everybody's evil or anything like that. But there are definitely some people that get paid a pretty good salary to trick us and all those kinds of things. So yeah. Good. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:09) So do you think money is a part of it? Dr Denise THINKS (34:11) Do I think what? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:11) Sorry, I apologise. Do you think money is a part of it? Dr Denise THINKS (34:15) Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. I unfortunately, yes. Yeah. That's a big part of it. It's not the only thing, but it's a big part for sure. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:23) Okay, so the money is a factor in what people are telling us about what we eat. Dr Denise THINKS (34:31) Absolutely. mean, again, going back to the sugar study, know, it's like sugar is healthy for us. Once again, who benefits from that? Because it's going to be so many people. like, OK, great. I can do this and that. You know, you know, deep down you shouldn't want to, but you're looking for any sign to help encourage your so-called bad habits, you know? So, yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:53) I'll ask another controversial question. Do you deal with families and children, and the food habits around learning from a young age? Dr Denise THINKS (35:03) Definitely. I don't do children one-on-one, but I have done group workshops for classes, community centres, and things of that nature. And of course, I love working with kids because they're so green and they're just so happy to learn and all these other things that the world has not gotten to them yet. They're so excited about it. And it reminds me of when I was a kid and I was trying to get my mom desperately to stop smoking. I wouldn't do anything. I would break her cigarettes. And of course she break my backside. I didn't care because I was like, I want you to stop smoking. It's so bad for you. But of course, you know, 30 years later, she's 30, 40, almost 50 years later, still smoking. But yeah, kids have the greatest intentions. So yeah, I pretty much work with anyone, group setting, small, large, on stage, doesn't matter, as long as I get to teach. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:04) That's amazing. When you have a larger audience and you are on stage, you have a set amount of time to change how they act, how they live their lives. What's normally the top thing they need to do first to get their habits back on track? And what's the first myth you normally need to bust? Is it the sugar or something else? Dr Denise THINKS (36:29) So I get them to just become more aware. You know, I spend a lot of time in my step-by-step program on becoming aware and how to become aware. It's just one thing to say, you need to pay attention to this. No, but there's creative ways that you can have someone become more aware of what they're doing, what they're eating, what it even tastes like. You know, earlier when we were talking about, popcorn and movies, there was a study done by the Dr. Wansink that I was talking about where he did a study where he rented out a movie theater and he offered a free movie and free popcorn to the guests. And those guests had just finished eating dinner or lunch. I can't remember what time of day it was, but they had just finished eating, and the free popcorn was five days old. And so he was watching them the whole entire time, pick up the popcorn, eat a little bit, and then they'd make this face, and they'd put it back down. Well, within minutes, movie is going, they pick up the popcorn again and start eating it again. Their faces are like, this is disgusting, but they're still eating it, even though it's disgusting, because again, because of the comparing. And so a lot of times we're distracted by watching TV or movies. gulping food because of whatever is going on, the music or all kinds of different cues that are just making us eat, eat, eat, and we're not paying attention. And our brains are telling us, hey, we're full stop, you know, but that's why we have a lot of digestive issues. So just helping them walk through that is takes a lot of time and a lot of work, but it's definitely foundational to what we're building. And so those are the One of the first few things that I'm teaching people is to how to become aware and step by step, just keeping things really, really simple, nothing too elaborate over the head, just one, two, three, keep it really simple. yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:35) What I'm seeing in that example is a step further than what I expected, which is awesome because lots of people talk about swapping food, and I had phases of enjoying popcorn at home. I would make it in a pan or a popcorn maker and not add anything. No salt, no dairy-free butters or No oils, nothing, but chances are. Okay, so a little drizzle of something is nice. know, look, I'm weird, but people can, okay. Some people add nutritional yeast. I don't eat that a lot. It sort of relates to my tummy a bit strangely, but it's the thing people can do. Or I have occasionally added a Dr Denise THINKS (39:05) It feels like some foam. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:28) Slight drizzle of olive oil, but either way it didn't have all of the stuff that's on the popcorn you see in the movie cinemas. But you're going beyond the swap because what I'm seeing and what you revealed is that people are not even thinking about their eating, and it's the default of if I'm looking at a screen, I am eating something as I'm looking at a screen and considering people's screen time became four hours in a day on average, that's an average. So it could be more on some days. Are some of those people then defaulting to grabbing at food just because they are looking at something? Dr Denise THINKS (40:16) For sure. mean, so there's another author that I enjoy reading his book, James Clear. And he's the author of Atomic Habits. And so he does a lot of teaching and research on how our environments are designed. So if you walk into any house, I bet at least nine and a half out of 10 times you walk in someone's house. Where's the couch going to be faced? It's going to be faced toward the TV, right? So why does that have to be? Like it's a place to sit down and relax. Why can't it be facing the window or facing the wall or facing some art? You know what I mean? But we have gravitated to where it's our design, to where it faces the TV. So that alone just kind of tells you how we've been conditioned to think about relaxation time or Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:46) The TV. Dr Denise THINKS (41:11) Food in general and all these different pairings. So it's so interesting when you like take a step back and really pay attention to what's going on. So yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:21) In times in my life when the living room or my switch-off space did not have a TV, I was more focused on doing other things. And I'm not saying that we should all not have a TV, but are you, are you suggesting we could rearrange our surroundings in our homes to change our habits? Dr. Denise THINKS (41:45) Absolutely. mean, there, so when I, think to go back to your earlier question about, you know, when I'm talking to large groups of people, what am I really teaching them and what am I trying to have them leave home with or leave, you know, that place with to take home is tiny little patterns that we can make adjustments around our environment to make it where it's so small, it's almost hard to fail. So the, redesigning your couch and your living space, that could be a big deal for some people. But one example that James gave was he wanted to start flossing more. And a lot of people don't typically floss because usually I'm gonna ask you, where do you keep your floss in your home? Or do you have? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:32) I keep my floss and my toothbrush in my tote bag that's essentially like a handbag, which is a bit controversial. I should probably keep them somewhere more visible. Dr Denise THINKS (42:45) Exactly, yes. So that was kind of the point. So I myself, I have a little cup where I keep my toothbrush in. And then, you know, if you want to start flossing more, get a little bowl and put your little, the string or however it comes designed right next to your toothbrush, because most people like myself, the floss is in the drawer, and it's not seen. So little small, tiny patterns like that to improve your habits that you want to gravitate toward. Little things that almost make it hard to fail if you redesign and make some simple changes for yourself. yeah. If you want another one, I can tell you another one. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:25) I have another one and then I have another question after this. Okay, the next question I should really ask. Did anything else aside from your health struggles lead you to fully work in this space? Did something tell you people need more guidance? I know you had a few different professions or a few different things you explored. You studied marketing. What made you say people need to prioritise this as a thing they need to learn? Dr Denise THINKS (43:56) That is a great question because I've been in multiple different areas within the health and wellness space. So, of course, my own, you know, growing up, I always played basketball since I can remember. So obviously, that's automatically a lot of exercise, but on the food side, it didn't become more important because again, I could eat whatever I wanted to. I thought, and it didn't start, I didn't start paying more attention to that until maybe almost 30 years old. And so I remember getting off the couch, and my knees just almost buckled. And I think I was 29. Yeah, I wasn't even 30 yet. And I was just like, man, it's my time to get arthritis. Almost everybody in my family has arthritis, and I have a pretty big family. And so I was like, well, it's just my time to get arthritis. And then I started to get acne, you know, within a year. And I was like, I didn't have acne as a teenager when most people get it. What is really going on? So it's just growing more and more and more. And I could probably smack you with my acne from here to where you are. Cause it was just so bad. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:54) Really? It so it was visible. It was distinct, visible acne around age 30. Dr Denise THINKS (45:15) Absolutely, yes. I would barely want to leave the house and if I did, I packed on makeup just to try to hide it. But of course, it's protruding from my face, so it's tough to hide. And so that was one of the things where I start reading a little bit. It's like, okay, why do I have adult acne? Why do people get it? And the most consistent research that I found was dairy. And I was like, Dairy, no, I can't let go of my milk and cheese. So that can't be it. Let's look for some other stuff, right? Cause we try to make excuses for certain things. And once, you know, I think I left dairy or milk alone for about two weeks, huge difference already. And I was just like, wow, okay. What if I stopped eating cheese? What's going to happen? Cause every lot of people in my family have glaucoma, and what's the other one? With the eyes, glaucoma, and it starts with a C. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:07) I don't know, what's glaucoma? Dr Denise THINKS (46:09) So it's basically a disease in the eyes to where it begins to a point to where you are, you can become legally blind, essentially. So yeah, so from what I understand with ⁓ dairy, it just becomes built up so much in your body and your system that it just covers everything, and you get to a point where you can't even see anymore. multiple family members in my on my mother's side to where they have glaucoma. And I can't remember the other one. It starts with a C. Anyway, pretty much the same issues. And I was just like, I don't want to go down that road. So I want to pay attention to what's going on in my family. Let me do the opposite of what they're doing. And let's just see what happens. That's when I started running experiments on myself. And so was like, OK, I am losing a lot of weight unintentionally. It's just happening because I'm watching what I'm eating. I used to I've worn glasses since I was in the sixth grade, even though I needed them well before then. Vision was terrible. Now I'm getting older, and I don't need my glasses anymore. Skin is clearing up. My knees are no longer hurting, no arthritis anymore. What's happened? Like this is like I'm aging backwards through literally. And I'm just like, what's happening? And I found out that the top nine of 10 diseases are all caused by food. And so that's when I went down rabbit holes of just research of more and more, like what's going on. So that's how I got there. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:43) I want to emphasise to anyone who is on the fence that even if there is some chance, some people use this logic for other beliefs as well. If there is any chance food could help, you're not exactly going to get more sick having a few more chunks of broccoli. You may as well do what you can. Why not? You know, what do you have to lose by eating better food? Dr Denise THINKS (48:08) Right, definitely, right? You can always spit it out if you don't like it. But again, if you season your meat, season your veggies so they can taste just as good. For some reason, they are left bland, and I don't understand why. Put some seasoning on these. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:24) goodness. You are tapping into something that is so prompted from my childhood because I grew up with the chunk of meat and then peas and carrots, maybe a broccoli, something like that on the side, right? I think this was in a few countries. Were you basically the same? The peas and carrots, something like that, on the side of a plain chunk of meat? And let me know if you did the same, because this is what I was doing as a kid. How do you make it have flavour at all? What you would call ketchup, I would call tomato sauce. I have no idea how much sugar I was pouring onto my vegetables every day. No idea, but there was more of a chance that I would eat it because I knew nothing about how to create flavours. So, do you think that one of the best solutions we have is to reconnect with flavour? Dr Denise THINKS (48:58) Wow, got you. Oh my gosh, absolutely. Like, I'm actually encouraging a friend of mine to help people understand how to season things because if he's, and he's a chef, and so he's like, no, this needs more cardamom. And I'm like, I don't even know what cardamom tastes like. You know what I mean? So, how do we kind of help people with that? You know, but it is definitely interesting for sure. But start with what you know. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:46) I would love to collab with some of the cooking shows. I considered making a cooking show, but I think that I would have needed a whole set-up for that. And initially, no, you don't need a whole set-up. Dr Denise THINKS (50:02) We try to make we try to complicate things way too much. No, I know so many people that have a large following, and they live in a box. You know, so no use what you have if you are good at what you're doing and it can explain it. That's all people really care about, so start… Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:21) I think you are influencing this. can tell you more than 60 people have talked on this show. And the thing that's evolving is food is playing such a part. We need other things as well. We need to look after our mental health. But food influences the mind, the emotions, it influences your energy, your clarity, of course, your appearance, and it's not shaming. We're not shaming someone who is a particular shape. So to be honest, I'm an Aussie size 12 right now, which is gosh, I think that your 10 is out 14 from memory. So for sizes, so I'm not tiny. It's like I'm not a size two or four or anything like that. We're not telling everybody to be a thin size. It's not about that, but it's about feeling okay and feeling well. Do you agree? It's not, it's not simply about fitting into a shape, but it's about feeling okay. And the role that food plays in that is so significant. But what you are reminding me of is that the simple habits, I think I took it for granted because I learned these habits and they became my new normal. And you're telling me other people have yet to learn the magic of the combo of tamari and maple syrup or other things. So there's a room for people to make a few simple steps and then really not just eat in a way that helps them, but also have fun. Dr Denise THINKS (51:55) Right. Yeah, for sure. You know, again, it's kind of like tapping back into the innocence and the fun that we had as kids, you know, whether, you know, and this example that I'm going to give, I'm not shaming anyone either, because I've had my own challenges, right? And still do, because it's not about perfection either. But when people tell me that they go to sporting events and they like to drink a lot of beer, and the alcohol is what makes it fun, it's like, No, when we were kids, we could play with a box and had fun. You know what I mean? It's not the alcohol, it's not anything outside of you was what makes it fun. It's internal, you know? So if you can just reach from within to figure out what you actually enjoy, I think that's one of the bigger problems. We're not doing things that we enjoy anymore. We're just going through the motions, and just like doing it because we have to, you know? So. Yeah, if you have to get something from outside of yourself to enjoy life or enjoy a moment, that's the wrong kind of mentality. So yeah, we got to figure out to be kids again, you know? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:05) You need to enjoy your life instead of just consuming enjoyable things. Dr. Denise THINKS (53:12) Absolutely, yeah. That's one of the first things I talk about as well in my program is I don't even bring up food for a while. Like, it's so many other things that's outside of us that makes us, that drives our behavior toward food. And it's the stress, it's the emotions, the ups and downs that make us drive toward a particular food. And if you can stop yourself in the middle of that and be like, okay, why do I specifically want a donut right now. It's something else that's emotional that's going on. So when you were talking about, you know, not putting anything on your popcorn, most people, including myself, were like, wait a minute, that tastes like styrofoam. So what do you mean you don't put anything on your popcorn? But if you want a sweet popcorn or a savory type of popcorn, that tells a story on what's going on that your body is really truly asking for. So, um, Really dialing back and figuring out, okay, am I happy in my life? If not, what's gonna make me happy? What is making me feel the way that I am? Is it because I feel like I just went through a breakup in a relationship, so I'm missing that person now? Well, the toppings that you would put on your popcorn or the way that you gravitate toward a donut or a cookie or chips, that all tells a story on what's going on the inside. And so you have to pay attention and actually address that. If not, you're going to keep reaching toward those things outside of you and trying to fill a void. And guess what? You're never going to fill that void because food does not serve that purpose. It may feel like it does for temporary reasons, but after 10 minutes, 30 minutes, you're going to be back in the same loop again. And so, yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:55) What fills the void for you? Is it a purpose? Is it something else? Dr Denise THINKS (55:01) I'm just being talking to you and talking to people like this, doing these workshops. I absolutely love it. And not, you know, for them and for myself, it's reminders for myself too, because again, I'm not perfect. This is not about perfection. There's no such thing, but there are certain things I'll think about when a client comes to me, and they ask me certain things, and I'm like, yeah, let me tell you about this X, Y, Z. And it's a great reminder for myself. This is my playground. So yeah, I absolutely love it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:33) I want you to, I want you to be on this playground as well. I want to wind up with three lessons that everybody should do or remember because I love having three of something, and it can be a wind-up of a call to action for everybody who's listening. Dr Denise THINKS (55:54) Okay. So I kind of gave away some of my nuggets already, as far as I know, waking up, doing things opposite. No, no, no, it's all right. I'll give you some new ones. This comes from research as well. So belief, desire and expectancy. You have to, and I don't want to sound like an afterschool commercial, but you do have to have belief in yourself. Okay. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:59) And you can read up. Dr Denise THINKS (56:20) You do have to have belief into whatever it is that you're an aspiring or aspiring to do, whatever goals that you want to reach. You have to actually believe that you can reach it. If not, we need to scale back on that goal before we just, you know, a lot of us just try to bite off too much, and the brain is going to say danger, danger. That's way too much. Let's just go back and sit on the couch because that's safe. Our brain is doing exactly what it's supposed to do when we try to bite off way too much at one time. So if you have a goal and you don't actually believe that you can get to that goal, you're exactly right. So we need to scale back and figure out what some smaller steps to get to that bigger goal. And then from there is the desire. In order to believe that you can get to a goal, you actually have to desire it. You actually have to figure out some kind of way where you can link it to where this is what I want to do. I want to find my own playground and whatnot. So I have to have that desirability in order to keep going and be consistent. And then from there is the expectancy theory. It's like, I expect myself to get there, and I believe that I deserve to get X, Y, and Z from these particular goals. So belief, desire, and expectancy that open up a world of doors for you. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:43) Dr Denise, thank you so much for your time, your conversation, your wisdom and your personal insights as well. Thank you so much for being on the show. Dr Denise THINKS (57:54) No, thank you so much again for having me, and let me know when you want to come back. I'd love to come back again. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:00) Awesome! Will do! Dr. Denise THINKS (58:01) All right, you have a good one.

🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast Episode: Your Nervous System Knows — Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard on Trauma, Generational Patterns & Healing the Body That Remembers   EPISODE SUMMARY What if the anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, and emotional reactivity you've carried your whole life didn't actually start with you? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard is a Queensland-based psychologist whose work spans private practice, community clinics, academia, and the media. She speaks from both professional expertise and personal lived experience — having witnessed domestic violence and experienced abandonment in childhood — and brings to this conversation a rare combination of clinical precision and genuine warmth. In this episode of The Motivate Collective, Dr Emma-Leigh unpacks the nervous system from the ground up — how it gets shaped in childhood, how unprocessed trauma shows up in the body and the workplace, and what it actually takes to break the generational patterns we didn't choose but often carry. She also takes a fascinating detour into the neuroscience of why we leave things in hotel rooms, the long-haul nervous system hangover of COVID, and why having a village might be one of the most important mental health protective factors we've quietly lost. This is a conversation that connects the dots between childhood, adulthood, the body, the brain, and the world — and it will change the way you think about why people behave the way they do. GUEST BIO Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard is a registered psychologist based in Queensland, Australia, with experience across private practice, community clinics, and academia. Her areas of clinical focus include childhood adverse events, generational trauma, anxiety, workplace bullying, burnout, and emotional regulation. She has contributed to national media and publications — including writing for newspapers on supporting children through COVID and an upcoming piece for a national travel magazine — and is a passionate advocate for early psychological education in schools. At the time of recording, Dr Emma-Leigh was on maternity leave following the birth of her second daughter, and will be returning to private practice later in the year. WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE [00:45] — Why Dr. Emma-Leigh became a psychologist: adverse childhood events, empathy, and being the person people turned to [02:06] — Boundaries as a life skill — not just a therapy concept — and why empathetic people burn out faster without them [03:01] — Her personal lived experience of witnessing domestic violence and experiencing abandonment — and why she doesn't blame her parents [04:46] — Generational trauma: how anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, and guilt can be inherited — and how to cut the cycle [05:21] — The nervous system explained: how it gets imprinted in childhood and what that means for adult behaviour [07:00] — Fight, flight, and freeze: how different people respond to the same threatening environment [07:53] — Fear underneath anger: why Yoda was right, and what school refusal really tells us about a child's inner world [09:13] — Why healing often starts with the parent, not the child — and why that's such a hard conversation to have [10:14] — The lasting impact of a teacher's words: how authority figures shape us during the brain's most malleable years [12:04] — Workplace bullying, authority, and why some people struggle to stand up for themselves professionally [14:14] — The physical body under chronic stress: migraines, IBS, muscle tension, and the symptoms doctors can't explain [15:45] — People-pleasing and perfectionism in the workplace: the fast track to burnout — and where it usually starts [16:45] — Leadership, ego, and the inner child: why some people in authority are running from their own unworthiness [18:12] — Anxiety and control: why leadership roles can mask deeply anxious inner worlds [18:24] — Narcissism in the C-suite: self-loathing disguised as grandiosity, and the workplace cultures it creates [19:55] — The doormat vs. the bulldozer: finding the assertive middle ground in any environment [21:02] — Why the next generation may be better equipped: mindfulness in schools, emotion regulation frameworks, and the Zones of Regulation [22:37] — Media work: writing for newspapers on children and COVID, and an upcoming travel magazine feature [23:33] — The neuroscience of why we leave things in hotel rooms — and practical hacks to stop it happening [28:54] — Brain fog, dissociation, and the brain that can't brain: what stress and trauma do to memory [31:07] — Re-traumatisation: what happens when memories surface, and why you shouldn't navigate that alone[32:59] — The COVID nervous system hangover: why so many professionals are still running on hypervigilance [36:11]— Internal vs. external locus of control — and how to hold both personal responsibility and systemic awareness at once[38:18] — Spirituality, meaning-making, and why belief is a genuine protective factor against mental illness [40:18] — The village we've lost: why modern individualised societies are harder on mental health than most people admit [42:02]— Circling back to the essentials: nervous system, boundaries, and a life that actually works KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE On generational trauma Dr. Emma-Leigh's lived experience of growing up with domestic violence and abandonment is the foundation of her passion for generational trauma work. The core question she brings to every client: is what I'm feeling mine, actually — or did it come from somewhere else? Anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, guilt — these patterns often have roots several generations deep. The lived experience of tracing them back, naming them, and choosing to stop passing them on is some of the most important therapeutic work she does. On the nervous system as a lifelong record. From the moment we are born, our nervous system is forming a map of the world. Is it safe? Are my caregivers safe? Am I safe? The lived experience of growing up around anger, chaos, or unpredictability gets imprinted — and it shows up decades later in a snap at the kids, a panic response to raised voices, or a paralysing inability to speak up at work. Understanding this reframes "difficult behaviour" as nervous system logic — not moral failing. On fear beneath anger One of the most clinically important insights in this episode: anger is almost always a surface emotion. Underneath it is usually fear or anxiety. The lived experience of a child with school refusal who kicks and screams is not a behaviour problem — it is a child whose nervous system is terrified. Labelling it as defiance without asking what it's about causes harm. This applies just as much to adults in workplaces and relationships. On the body, keeping score. Chronic stress and unresolved trauma don't just live in the mind. Dr Emma-Leigh's lived experience as a clinician has shown her over and over that migraines, IBS, muscle tension, and shortness of breath are often the nervous system screaming for rest and re-evaluation. When the doctor says nothing is physically wrong, it may be time to ask what the body is actually responding to. On the COVID nervous system hangover, Dr Emma-Leigh names something that many people sense, but few say out loud: we are collectively still recovering from years of hypervigilance. Checking case numbers every night, managing homeschooling, navigating an unpredictable world — all of it conditioned the nervous system into a state of sustained alert. The exhaustion, the irritability, the Mondayitis and Sundayitis that people are still experiencing years later — it doesn't have to be the baseline. But first, it needs to be named. On spirituality and meaning as protective factors. Research consistently shows that people with some form of belief — spiritual, religious, or simply a personal sense of meaning — have a genuine protective factor against mental illness. You don't have to like what happened to you. But finding what it means for how you want to live, and who you want to become, is one of the most powerful things therapy can help with. STANDOUT QUOTES "Is this anxiety, this perfectionism, this people-pleasing — is that actually mine? Or did it come from somewhere else?" "Children model everything from us — good and bad." "Anger is usually a surface-level emotion. Underneath it, most of the time, is fear." "Your nervous system is screaming at you to slow down." "You don't have to live in a perpetual state of feeling absolutely exhausted and despising work. It doesn't have to be that way." "I can control how I respond internally — and I can help my nervous system feel safe right here, right now." "You don't have to like what happened. But what did you learn about yourself? And what does this mean for how you want to live going forward?" "If we had our village again — in many ways, that would be more supportive of our mental health." DR. EMMA-LEIGH'S PRACTICAL TOOLKIT For parents navigating big emotions in children: Look underneath the behaviour. A tantrum, school refusal, or aggressive outburst is often anxiety wearing a costume. Ask what's driving it — not just how to stop it. For adults navigating the workplace: If you struggle to speak up to authority, there may be a reason rooted well before this job. That's worth exploring — in therapy if needed. In the meantime, start small: an email, a message, a low-stakes conversation. Build the muscle. For travellers who keep leaving things in hotel rooms: Create a notes-based checklist of your most important items. Use a two-person check if travelling with someone. Or create your own mnemonic — even a little song. Sounds strange, but the neuroscience backs it up. For everyone navigating the current world: Name the hypervigilance. You may still be in a nervous system state shaped by years of collective stress. It's not weakness — it's biology. And it can shift. THE ZONES OF REGULATION(Mentioned by Dr Emma-Leigh as a classroom tool for emotional regulation) A framework increasingly used in Australian schools from prep/kindergarten age: 🔴 Red — I'm angry, I need space and time out 🔵 Blue — I'm feeling sad or worried 🟢 Green — I'm feeling good and ready to learn 🟡 Yellow — I'm excited or have too much energy, I need a little regulation RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED 🌐 Follow Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard on Instagram for psychology content and tips 📰 Watch for her upcoming article in a national Australian travel magazine on the psychology of leaving things in hotel rooms 📚 Evidence-based therapies mentioned: Trauma-Focused CBT, Cognitive Processing Therapy, EMDR, Schema Therapy, Parts Work CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE 🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com TAGS / CATEGORIES Psychology | Nervous System | Generational Trauma | Childhood Trauma | Anxiety | Burnout | Workplace Wellbeing | Emotional Regulation | Boundaries | Parenting | Mental Health | Healing | Neuroscience | Personal Development | Wellness Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson   ⚠️ CONTENT NOTICE This episode contains an open and thoughtful conversation about childhood trauma, domestic violence, adverse childhood experiences, workplace bullying, burnout, PTSD, and anxiety. Everything is discussed with clinical care and compassion — and some of what is shared may bring up feelings of your own. If you are currently struggling, please know that you are not alone and that support is available right now. 🇦🇺 Australia Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au(24/7 crisis support) Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | beyondblue.org.au 1800RESPECT — 1800 737 732 | 1800respect.org.au(domestic and family violence support) Kids Helpline — 1800 55 1800 | kidshelpline.com.au(ages 5–25) 🌐 International:findahelpline.com     Transcript   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00) I like the fancy chair that looks really nice for video. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (00:02) Just a rocking chair, but yeah. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:04) Rocking chairs look very fancy and big. Emily, welcome to the show. You are talking from Queensland in Australia and you are a therapist who has done a lot in academic spaces with families, with people who were bullied in work. You've talked with media, you've done all sorts of things. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (00:27) Thank you for having me. Yes, yes, yeah. All different, like private practice, community clinics, at the moment, I'm just on maternity leave after the birth of our second daughter, but I'll be getting back into some private practice with some of my existing clients later on in the year. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:45) Amazing! What made you get into psychology to begin with? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (00:51) Great question. So I think it's twofold for me. I think having some of my own childhood adverse events, I think kind of when I was in adolescence, I then started to think about why do people tick the way that they tick? What makes people tick the way that they do? What makes people behave in certain ways? Why are people like that? And so that was one thing going on in my head. And then I just sort of became interested in psychology. But then also, when I speak with other fellow psychologists, they also report this as well, a lot of the time, that as we were growing up, we were often seen in our friendship groups, as that person that someone would come to for help, it just naturally happened. Quite an empathetic person. So if someone had a problem, they would come to me. But I then had to learn appropriate boundaries and things like that as well. So it wasn't too much for me. But yeah, it was just, I guess, a shoulder to cry on. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:48) That's so sweet. So you learned at a pretty early age something that a lot of people learn a lot later on, which is to help people, help people without giving everything and giving your whole self and setting a limit because you can't constantly help everybody. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (02:06) Yeah, you're exactly right. And I think boundaries is something that is really important as a therapist, and actually just as a human as well. Just sometimes we feel like we've got to, you know, not as a therapist, me speaking now, but just in everyday life, we feel like we've got to, you know, it would be good to help X, Y, Z and do this. Especially if you're a very empathetic person, that can be very draining on the physical body if you don't have those, and mentally as well, if you don't have those boundaries and stuff in place. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:39) I think we'll explore that a little bit because I know that for me, even recording heavy conversations, amazing conversations that can have a lot of emotional weight, there needs to be a way to contain that in some way. But you mentioned that this was after something happened in childhood. Can you share anything, any hint about what was going on? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (03:01) Yeah, yeah, just, I'll touch on it briefly — one day, maybe I'll write a book or whatever on it. But in my experience of growing up, I — and look, it is quite unfortunately common to experience what we call an adverse childhood event. And that includes like witnessing violence or experiencing violence. So for me, I observed domestic violence within the household that I grew up in, and then experienced like abandonment, rejection sort of things from both parents. But I sit from a place of not blaming either one of my parents. And that's a really difficult spot to get to eventually. And other people will say this, that it is difficult to get to a place where you don't look back on your caregivers and blame them for things that you've experienced in your life. Because often it is a generational thing. Often, they grew up with some adversities in their life as well. And so they just never learnt how to stop that pattern from going on and on and on. Which is why I'm really passionate about generational trauma and working in that space — to work on, okay, if some of these behaviours, if this anxiety, if this perfectionism, if this people pleasing, if this feeling of so much guilt — is that actually mine or did it come from somewhere else in the past? And like, my parents, my grandparents and so on. Often, we see it many generations back. And then, is that mine? What I'm feeling, or is it theirs? And then how can I cut that cycle and stop that cycle, so it doesn't kind of pass on? So for me, that's kind of been an unfolding journey, having experienced and witnessed parts of this abuse and violence and things like that. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:46) Some questions about what could typically happen. I'm so curious. Firstly, when people are growing up at a young age around angry feelings or seeing people having angry feelings, then I'm curious, do people typically or often end up growing up anticipating the worst from people, or what's the response that people end up applying to everybody else as the sort of safeguard default? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (05:21) Great question. What you're really talking about there is the nervous system. So the nervous system — obviously, we all have our own nervous systems. But from the moment we are born, our nervous system is starting to understand whether the world is a safe place, whether my caregivers are a safe place, whether I'm safe as a person in my own body, and then the people around me. And so if you are growing up in an environment where someone, for example, is angry all the time, yelling, abusive, violent, things like that — that can get imprinted in the nervous system. So then your body can start to — now, this is not the same for everyone — but your body can start to feel unsafe. And the way that you respond might be different. So, for example, some people might model that behaviour. And so when they feel threats, for example — and we see this follow through into adulthood — often a lot of people aren't aware of what's going on, why they're angry all the time. But some people may respond to a threat the same way as they were modelled to them. So they may also yell, also be abusive, maybe physically or maybe not physically, just verbally. Like they don't understand perhaps why sometimes they just get so angry that they just snap, and they might yell at the kids and say something they didn't mean to, or get stuck at the traffic lights and all of a sudden they're putting a rude finger up or yelling verbal abuse at someone else in traffic. Not being able to regulate the emotions. So it can be that way — maybe you're modelling that — or it can be really internalised, which is that anxiety that you're speaking about. And we speak in the nervous system about fight or flight and freeze as well. A fight is where there's a threat, and we just want to attack it. And so that might be that more anger, yelling, that sort of response. Whereas the flight is like avoidance, running away. I don't feel safe, I want to get out of the situation, I want to escape. And that can be that anxiety, that avoidance of doing things. Potentially for some people, if they are around people who yell — they've grown up around this yelling environment — that might actually trigger them internally. And when they hear different people yell, they might have some sort of physiological reaction as an adult and go, okay, I don't really know why, but I'm starting to feel a bit anxious around what's happening. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:53) I'm wondering if sometimes people confuse the feelings — perhaps sometimes an inner feeling of fear could look externally like anger or something else. And a behavioural specialist who was on the show a while ago quoted Yoda. I'm wondering if you agree with Yoda — where fear leads to anger that leads to hate and to the dark side. We'll start with that. Do you think that's true? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (08:19) Yeah, I do. For a great degree. Absolutely. So often, anger is like a surface-level emotion. But underneath anger, most of the time, is fear, is anxiety. And a really good example of that that I say to parents all the time is that if you think about a child who has school refusal, for example, you might often see tantrums, kicking, screaming, and automatically it's labelled as a behaviour problem, noncompliance, defiance, without actually considering what might be going on in that situation. Often it's not a behavioural problem. Often, underneath it is actually huge amounts of anxiety about school. And our job is to find out why that anxiety exists. So it may be difficulties with friendships, academics, teachers and so on. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:13) And something could be really going on at school. I'm wondering if sometimes the grownups find it easier to blame the child and blame how they think the child is built instead of looking at themselves. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (09:29) Yeah, Melanie, you're absolutely right. Yeah, often it's a really difficult conversation for me to have with parents — that often healing starts with ourselves a lot of the time. As much as we'd love to think that we're perfect, there's always things that we can do to work on ourselves, which then flow onto our children as well. And I like to remind parents that children model everything from us, good and bad. So they learn how to ride a bike because we're showing them, we're teaching them, we're explaining stuff to them. Same with many other things in life. But we can also inadvertently model things that perhaps we don't like, like smacking, hitting. That, unfortunately — Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:14) — anything. Yeah. It could be beyond the parents. I know some kids are bullied at school. Some — who hasn't got a story, even to use a light version — who hasn't got a story where, sometime during childhood, a teacher said something, and it stuck with us our whole lives. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (10:31) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. And if it still is there, if it is still stuck, I do challenge people to — we want to unwind that a little bit. We don't want that to trigger us anymore. And in psychology, we speak about trauma reminders. And while that is not necessarily classified as trauma in the definition of trauma — a teacher saying something that might have hurt our feelings — it has a huge, profound impact. I can remember things that teachers have said to me that impacted me. Because as a child, as an adolescent, our brain is really malleable. So we are very vulnerable, and picking up on mixed messages from people in authority can have a really big impact on us. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:17) It really can. We look up to those people, and sometimes things are said in front of a class. So essentially, we're trying to feel okay within a group and tribe, that sort of thing. So that can sort of happen anywhere. I'm wondering if people have had similar feelings, then in the workplace, to go back to the workplace bullying that you mentioned. Seriously, there are workplaces where a boss can have that authority energy of pointing a finger or judging people when really something else was the cause of something. Okay, what do you think is going on in workplaces that people need to learn from? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (12:04) Yeah, yeah, it is really tricky. And look, in some situations, you've got to get out of there. To be frank, sometimes for your own mental health and your nervous system, it's okay, this environment does not serve me in my highest and best good anymore. And I need to go somewhere else that is going to be in alignment with my values. However, before you jump to conclusions, of course, there are other things that we want to try and implement in that environment. Some people — I actually spoke about this a little while ago on my Instagram, I did a post on this — some people can have a real difficulty standing up to authority figures, standing up to like a boss or a parent or a leader in some description. Some people can; other people it's much easier for them. And so, unfortunately, sometimes with some of those people, they can then be taken advantage of. And that's like a fast track to burnout. Of course. So we want to get into a space where we can confidently say what our needs are, or at least have that conversation. Even if it's like — I feel really uncomfortable with putting boundaries in place, maybe I need to send a little email or something like that to start with. And then you're kind of building up from there. But we want to understand also, okay, why do I have such challenges in standing up to authority? And often that can be work for therapy. But if you pull that apart a little bit, it can be — potentially, there's been rejection in the past. There's been experiences in the past where you have stood up, and then you've been rejected, you've been abandoned, you've lost a job because you have spoken up before, or you've lost a relationship and so on. So somewhere in your mind, you're going, it's not safe to say what I want to say — that this is too much, I can't handle it, I'm burning out and so on. But if we don't do that, when we get to burnout, it can literally get to the stage where you just can't get out of bed, you can't leave the house, you're having so many sick days and so on. So there's a lot to evaluate within that, and everyone's circumstances are obviously individual. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:14) And it would probably be amplified and extended because a full-time job could be 8am to 5pm. It could be longer than a 9 to 5. It's the bulk of the waking hours sometimes — or the bulk of the day. It's quite a chunk of someone's life and someone is choosing to, for that much of their time, be in that sort of situation. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (14:40) Yeah. And that then can start to have impacts on the physical body as well, which people are not often aware of. They're not often aware that these migraines they keep having, this IBS, these headaches, this muscle tension, this shortness of breath — they've been to the doctor, they've said nothing is wrong, but often they're not aligning that with maybe it's the stress that they're going through or the burnout that they're experiencing. My nervous system is screaming at me to slow down, to maybe reevaluate my environment. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:13) Yes. A couple of other things I'm wondering might be going on. I do want to ask — firstly, before the one about overcommitting — I'm curious if sometimes people do the opposite of not standing up to authority, and if they are trying to comfort themselves by making sure they are in the centre of what's happening and making sure they're always climbing the ladder, elevating — that sort of thing. Have you seen that as a trauma response? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (15:45) Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Nail on the head. Yes. So people pleasing, perfectionism — feeling like you just have to, you know, if I don't do everything that my boss asked me to do, then something bad's going to happen. I'm going to lose my job. I'm not going to get that promotion and so on and so on. Also a fast track to burnout. Even if you're not aware of it. All of a sudden, you're working — like you said — well beyond the nine-to-five. You're working till 11 o'clock at night, four days a week, and then you're having to do weekend work as well, just to try and do all this extra work to impress your boss and so on. Again, for a lot of people, this people pleasing, perfectionism, and stuff like that tends to start in childhood. It can be in environments where maybe you grew up, and you felt like you weren't good enough, and then you had to start to prove your worth to other people. So deep down, a lot of these people may feel like they're not worthy and may feel that love is conditional and so on. That might have been what they've been taught. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:45) I'm curious if you've seen those feelings in people who are in management or leadership. So, not trying to please a boss, but trying to always feel like they are above everybody. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (17:00) Yeah, yeah. And that can be a self-worth thing as well. It can also be an internal battle within themselves — I'm constantly striving to be X, Y, and Z just to tell myself that I am good enough. And that can be that inner child part of people — that inner child part of someone that needs to be fulfilled because you were never fulfilled perhaps when you were growing up and when you were a child. And so we call it parts work or schema therapy — we talk about that inner child part of us, and those parts of us that maybe were abandoned and so on. And that can be — it's an evidence-based therapy that can be so helpful and effective at looking at those parts. But also being in a leadership role — often a lot of those people can be, not always, but can be highly anxious. Because you're in control of that situation. And anxiety loves control. Because it means that it's an illusion of control — you're trying to control an environment that's often unpredictable. So you're trying to make it predictable, which should, in theory, reduce the anxiety. So I do see that as well. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:12) The predictability, the feeling of control. Okay, so part of being in leadership is knowing that we can't control everything in the world. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (18:24) Exactly. Yeah. Unfortunately, I do see the flip side as well. We do see CEOs and other high-level executives that do have things like narcissism. And that is a different sort of control — that control is maybe more so about, again, a lot of people who have narcissism have very low, poor self-esteem and self-worth, but they don't realise that they do. They're often self-loathing. They often think very poorly of themselves. They overcompensate by having this grandiose sense of self. And that's what can cause often toxicity in the workplaces and burnout, especially when people feel like they're not being listened to and not being heard. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:12) It's a lot, handling the identity in any level, because all sorts of people might start off or continue — I'm so keen to get my brightness up a little bit, I just feel like it needs a bit more brightness. So so many people work for someone else, either alongside working for themselves or because they are wanting to work in a larger space — and they need to make sure they are feeling supported. But then, when people are doing leadership roles, it sounds like it's a balance of not putting ourselves down too much, but not overcompensating with our egos, or however you might put it. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (19:55) Yeah, great. You've put it really nicely there. Yeah, it's a nice balance — we don't want to be — I often say this with children when I'm working on assertiveness — we don't want to be a doormat where someone's walking all over us, right? Just doing all these things just to potentially get a promotion that may never come, and just burning ourselves out. And therefore that's then overflowing into our family life, or we're never spending time with our friends and family, or never working out and eating properly and so on. But then we also don't want to come across as really aggressive either in our approach. So it's that sort of balanced approach of, okay, how can I communicate what my needs are? They may or may not be met, but at least I can communicate that. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:44) Communicate them. If anyone can learn that in childhood, I think they are a step ahead of a lot of grown-ups. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (20:49) Yeah, absolutely. And to be honest, it's pretty rare that you'll find parents who are pretty attuned to that — because we just don't get taught. It's no one's fault. We just don't get taught this very well in school. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:02) At least there are conversations like this now. I know that years and decades ago, people weren't even talking about these things. At least it's a conversation. Did you find that growing up, people weren't talking about all of this as much? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (21:17) Yeah, yeah. So exactly. These days we're seeing psychology as an elective in high schools — yes, we are seeing that, which is amazing. We're also seeing schools starting at prep or kindergarten — I think it is in New South Wales, we call it prep in Queensland, or primary school, elementary school — we're seeing mindfulness and meditation taught from a really young age, from like five or six, and just having mindful breaks. And I'm also seeing children learning how to regulate their emotions better. So in classrooms, there's a fantastic resource called the Zones of Regulation. And that shows — red is stop, I'm angry, I need space, I need time out and so on. There's blue, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling worried. Green, I'm feeling good, I'm happy. And yellow, I'm feeling maybe excited, I've got a little bit too much energy, I need a little bit more space to regulate. Those things we're starting to see come into classrooms, which is huge. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:22) Interesting, interesting — colour code, of course, that would translate to young ones. And you did something with media. What have you been focusing on when you were talking to media? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (22:37) Yeah, a few different things. So in the past, when I was working in academia, I enjoy writing. In academia, I was writing some tips and things for newspapers around how to support children during COVID. So that was quite good at that time, of course, because anytime a child experiences — you know, cyclones that we had in Queensland last year, just natural disasters, or like a pandemic — anything like that — it's new and different for all of us, but for children it's really difficult for them to understand what on earth is happening. So I've written some articles around how we can explain things like COVID in a friendly, childlike way. I also enjoy going on podcasts. Recently I wrote another article for — it hasn't been released yet, but it's coming — for a national travel magazine, around why we leave things in hotel rooms? Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:33) Oh, I love this one! I left my MacBook charger in a hotel once or twice, and I felt so guilty — and people were so kind because I was thinking it was my fault, but they knew that those MacBook chargers are not cheap, and they left it aside. They tried so hard. But I feel like — why? I never do that. Is there something — okay, what's going on with our weird brains when we're travelling and we leave something that we normally never leave? What's going on? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (24:04) Yeah, so there are a few things. Number one — ideally, when we're on holidays, our nervous system hopefully should shift into more of a parasympathetic state — rest and digest, relax, chill, drink piña coladas or whatever suits you, or just go on a yoga retreat or whatever. So we're relaxed. But then usually when we're packing, ready to get to the airport, and so on, it can be — exactly — this sympathetic activation, this drive of like, I've only got a certain amount of time, I've got to get to the airport. Sudden rush. And then that quick switch into a sympathetic nervous system activation can potentially mean that we forget things and so on. But also, we're in a different environment. We're out of routine. So then you've got — we're out of routine, different environment, different place, I've got time pressures, and I've just been relaxing for so long. We've got all of this going on. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:37) I'm wondering about the solution to that. I'm guessing part of the answer is to allocate some time well before that shift to where we are going next. Are there any little hacks to stay organised when our brains are ultra zen? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (25:19) Yes, yeah — of course, extra time, but often for most people that probably doesn't happen, especially if you've got kids. But checklists are really good. So, especially checklists of important things. So a good idea is to have maybe notes on your phone, for example, of the most important things — so MacBook charger, rings, my passport that I put in the safe, or whatever, my watch or whatever that's in the safe, or this is on the bedside table, or what have you. So having a list of that that you can then check off at the end is really important. If you're travelling with someone, a two-person check is also really important. As well as allocating extra time. If you have a really poor memory like some people do, but you really want to remember something that's really important — like something you've left in the safe, for example; the safe is often where people will leave things or forget things — out of sight, out of mind — you can do things like — now this might sound funny but there's a stack of research behind it — in neuroscience, coming up with your own little song or rhyme. I think they call it — don't quote me — I think they call it mnemonics or something like that. And that's where you might literally come up with a little tune that you sing to yourself — okay, watch is in the safe, rings on the bedside table, and so on. And then you've got this kind of stuck in your head that you can use from hotel room to hotel room. Sounds funny, but there's a stack of research behind it. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:54) Turn it into a song! Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (26:56) Yeah, exactly. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:58) I like that. Okay, would you pick a cheesy song? I don't know why, but my brain has been gravitating towards those really — I don't know if we're the same age or not — but you know those 90s school disco songs? Do you think something really catchy is going to help, or are we going for the really steady — just make it a rhyme — or does it not really matter what someone picks? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (27:28) Look, I think if it resonates with you, that's what's going to work for you. So catchy is great, if it rhymes, also great. And look, some people don't love that idea, and that's fine. There's a lot of research behind that. But if it works for you, it works for you. Maybe for other people it's the list — it's doing the checklist — and getting into what we call habitual learning. Every time I go away on holidays, every time I stay in a hotel room, this is just what I do. I just, as I'm packing my bag, I write my list of those important things. And before I leave, I check off that list of important things. And that's habitual learning. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:08) It's awesome hearing a therapist say, " Do what works for you. Things are not one size fits all. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (28:14) Exactly, exactly. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:17) That helps a lot. Okay, deviating from travel because that's awesome. Oh, that reminds me of what else I was so keen to ask about — because you're talking about memory — have you seen that if people have had a very stressful time, or maybe a workaholic moment, or something that's clearly traumatic — death, any of those things — that the brain just can't — I use this silly phrase of the brain can't brain. It's like it's just not doing the things that it normally always does, be it remembering or planning. Is there a name for that? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (28:54) Yeah, a few things. So an informal name is what people now refer to as brain fog, right? So some people might not realise, but actually a symptom of anxiety is attention and concentration problems, also in depression. So that can mean working memory issues. So yes, when we're talking about PTSD, complex PTSD and very traumatic experiences, we can do what's called dissociation. And regions of the brain or memories can literally switch off. I also see that in young children who have significant meltdowns and trouble regulating their emotions. The amygdala is in the centre of our brain and that is mainly responsible for emotional processing. And that is right next to the hippocampus, which is highly associated with memories as well. So when you have all these — if you think about trauma, anger, really extreme emotional responses — all these neurons firing and that part of your brain region is lighting up, it can really overwhelm the brain. And sometimes those memories can then — you can dissociate from the situation. Or those memories can kind of lock in. It's actually not uncommon to hear a child who has significant emotion regulation problems say that they actually just can't remember what had happened. And you're going — but Henry, you just hit your sister across the head. And sometimes people think that they're lying, but in actual fact, they actually don't remember. It's just like — the same things can happen with extreme trauma as well. People will often describe that maybe they remember bits and pieces, but they have a lot of gaps in their memory. Sometimes there's some emerging research that's showing that over time, when the body and the brain starts to feel safe, some of these memories — without sounding cliché — actually unlock, and they remember some things that maybe happened in childhood all of a sudden, which is really fascinating. It's very fascinating neuroscience and research. Yes, stress — huge impact on the memory. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:07) So then, once we calm down and remember things, is there the risk to then feel perhaps triggered, or alternatively, just reliving things, and then it's like going through a whole new trauma, suddenly remembering things out of the blue. Does that happen? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (31:28) Yeah, so yes — what you're describing is being re-traumatised. So yes, perhaps — I'd like to think that the brain is only showing us that because it thinks we can handle it in that moment. So, which, you know, you may have brought down your sympathetic activation enough for your body to then say, I don't need to avoid this anymore. Maybe it's time for me to start processing some of this stuff potentially. However, I don't recommend doing it alone. Some people never get there. Some people have been traumatised so much that — and they haven't done any therapy, or it's just too full on, just too scary to look internally and look within. And there is no judgment with that. Because some people have been through some awful things. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:14) From the intensity of — those sorts of trauma — I'd love to look forward because I think there's a lot of change going on. It's worth asking someone like you about some of the trends. I mean, I think people are looking at a lot of change. It's been a year or two where a lot of workplaces wanted people to go back to the office, and that's a shift after working from home a lot. People are seeing that AI is finally really coming into the workplace — in a lot of jobs that probably didn't involve that a few years ago, there are definitely a few shifts. Are you seeing that professionals are needing to navigate a lot of changes at the moment? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (32:59) Yeah, definitely. I think everyone's nervous system is probably still recovering from COVID. I think if we think back to those times in 2020, 2021 — I can even remember myself — everyone, you know, we're tuning into the news at 10 o'clock to see how many cases there were that day. Okay, so that's going to be — if we reflect on that — that is actually hugely triggering to the nervous system. And you're exposed to that for a good couple of years, where we're seeing, you know, there's 855 cases today or whatever it might be. And we're not realising that at the time, but we're starting to live in this perpetual fight or flight state. So then we obviously had a lot of changes. For people with children — homeschooling, changes, juggling, working from home, managing children — and then people initially were fearful about how working from home was going to work and so on. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:57) COVID — if you don't mind me diving in. Look, I haven't seen official stats, but have you seen that so many people had breakups after and during COVID? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (34:07) Yeah, yeah, yeah — relationship breakdowns — it really impacted people in so many ways. And it's changed us forever. Yeah, we just — you're right. So many people are expecting people to work back in the workplace. But we're also seeing a lot more people working hybrid, which has brought about a lot of good change for people seeking a better work-life balance. Yeah, in some industries that are allowing that. But I think we're still seeing our nervous systems being a little bit on guard still. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:40) Okay, I feel like you're confirming something that a lot of people don't admit. Because I felt like when I was interacting with, especially some bureaucratic spaces, people think they're just being formal and precise, but I kind of — my gut sensed this ultra alertness. This — it felt like people are still heightened in some way, and I couldn't quite pick it. But it feels like you're acknowledging something that people don't want to say. Because we're not meant to comment on that era too much socially or culturally anymore — but I think you're saying that unspoken feeling we're all having, where we're all still recovering from the world. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (35:27) Yeah, it's like a big long hangover, you know. One way to put it. But yes, people may be fearful to say it, but I think there's a lot of people that are unaware — to be honest — that maybe it's not — I don't want to say normal — but you don't have to live in a perpetual state where you're feeling absolutely exhausted, drained, still tired after sleeping all night, and just really despising work and struggling, having Mondayitis and Sundayitis, and being irritable and yelling at the children and stuff all the time. It doesn't have to be that way. And so COVID and that era definitely put people into what we call hypervigilance a lot more, where we're really on edge. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:11) Okay, do you see some people blaming individuals for that hypervigilance when really they might be responding to an environment that sort of caught up and brewed that collective feeling for a while? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (36:27) Yeah, yeah, great point. Great point. So sometimes, in psychology, we talk about something called an internal and external locus of control. So an internal locus of control is where you really take responsibility for your own feelings, thoughts, behaviours and actions. That's not being ignorant to the fact that we are always influenced — we are influenced by politics, the media, people around us and so on, of course. But then there are some people that identify more with an external locus of control. And those are the people that say that nothing is my fault, everyone else is to blame, and I can't control anything. All this stuff is happening to me — poor me, victim mentality. And so you do get those sort of people that are more like that and feel like they have less control in the world and blame other people. But we want to acknowledge that, yes, there may be some really awful things happening in the world and some things that are absolutely totally out of our control — politics and natural disasters and war and the weather and whether it's raining or not. Right, we have all of these things. But I can control how I respond internally to that and how I think about that. And I can help my nervous system feel safe right here, right now. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:48) I see. I see. Okay, I think a great concluding chapter — because I feel like we could talk all day, especially visiting every hot topic, and I'd love to talk about every single one of these for an hour each — but you mentioned spirituality. Is that one of the keys? I'm wondering if you can let people know about how spiritually and emotionally they can level themselves out with everything that's going on. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (38:18) Yeah, great question. What I will say about spirituality and belief systems in general is that the research shows that people who have some sort of belief — whether they're spiritual, whether they're religious, regardless of what their religion is, whether they just have some sort of belief in what the meaning of life is — those people have what we call a protective factor against mental illness, or against additional anxiety, depression, trauma, and so on. And what the research is showing is that having some sort of faith or belief in something outside of themselves can just help reduce that anxiety and so on. So it can certainly be very helpful. But some people are atheist and that's okay as well. But when I look at people who've gone through trauma and adverse life events, our evidence-based therapies — like Trauma-Focused CBT, cognitive processing therapy, and even EMDR — help us not only to process it, but then to find meaning. Maybe why it happened — but not necessarily like, why did this have to happen — but what did I learn about myself in that situation? And what does this mean for me moving forward in terms of — does it change who I am or how I want to live my life? Does it change the values that I want to live my life by? So you don't have to necessarily be spiritual or religious or what have you, but certainly finding meaning can be hugely beneficial. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:47) It sounds like part of the meaning is saying — you don't have to like what happened, especially if it's a trauma, a disaster, or anything like that. But even if you don't like what happened, how can you grow afterwards in a meaningful way? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (40:01) Exactly. That's exactly it. Thanks for summarising for me. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:05) Is there anything else that you think everybody — I apologise, or rephrase — is there anything else that you know that everybody needs to learn as we grow and deal with this wild world? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (40:18) Yeah, yeah. I think just circling back to the nervous system again — for centuries, we've gone through war, and we've experienced adversities, but they look very different now. And we're in many cultures much more individualised, with less support than many centuries and decades ago. Like we don't have, you know, necessarily in many cultures, that village to call upon around us, which is — Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:50) Sorry to dive in — do you think that's one of the solutions that we need to sort out? Do you think we need that village? Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (40:57) Well, again, it's certainly a protective factor. I was just reading the other day — someone speaking about, you know, if we had our village again, how — in many ways, I'm not going to say better, but in many ways more supportive — that perhaps would be of our mental health. And it would be. But with today's society, it is so challenging when both parties in a household are expected to work, or it's difficult to not work even if you're a single person. I mean, work has a lot of protective factors. But I guess what I'm saying is — people are hugely time poor, and that's a function of today's society. And living intergenerationally with families all the time is challenging in today's society. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:47) It really is. So maybe we need to figure out how to be less time-poor — to have more space and time and mental clarity to connect with potential tribes or villages. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (42:02) Yeah, yeah, and that's circling back to boundaries as we were discussing earlier — looking at a good work-life balance. Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:10) Boundaries. Okay. So nervous system, boundaries — back to those essentials. Emily, you really have brought everything together. Thank you so much for sharing a glimpse of your reality and so much expertise. Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (42:28) Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this chat.

What if everything you thought you knew about dopamine was wrong? In this episode of The Motivate Collective Podcast, Melanie Suzanne Wilson sits down with Dr Sankalp Garud — Oxford-based neuroscientist and PhD in Psychology and Neuroscience — to explore the brain science behind motivation, connection, creativity, and happiness. From why the journey genuinely rewards your brain more than the destination, to how your environment directly shapes your dopamine levels, to the very real risks of AI replacing human connection — this conversation will change the way you think about your own mind. Dr Sankalp also shares his deeply personal story: a misdiagnosis, the wrong psychiatric medication, and a night he thought he wouldn't survive — and how that experience became the fuel for his life's work. In this episode: The real role of dopamine — and why it's about wanting, not pleasure Why your environment is part of your neurochemistry The brain region responsible for reading social context How touch, vulnerability, and authenticity build deeper connections Why your best ideas come on walks and in the shower (it's neuroscience) Dunbar's Numbers and why losing friendships over time is completely normal AI in mental healthcare — co-pilot today, pilot tomorrow? Three science-backed lessons for motivation, connection, and self-awareness Dr Sankalp Garud is a neuroscientist and researcher at Oxford University whose work spans motivation, decision-making, social connection, and dopamine. He has studied happiness across cultures, practised meditation extensively, and brings both rigorous science and lived experience to everything he shares. 📍 Find The Motivate Collective: https://www.motivatecollective.com 📸 Instagram: [your handle] 💼 LinkedIn: [your handle] 🎙️ Subscribe so you never miss a conversation that matters. Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:32 What is motivation? The science explained 01:23 Dopamine: wanting vs. liking 03:09 The journey is tracked in the brain 03:59 How to manufacture motivation 06:31 Dopamine and your environment 09:26 Are we a product of our surroundings? 11:37 Social connection as a survival need 12:35 Personal vs. professional relationships in the brain 13:54 The orbitofrontal cortex and social context 16:34 Social skills are learnable 19:34 Can we see trauma in the brain? 21:22 Neurofeedback and real-time dopamine signals 24:02 Movement and motivation 24:36 The default mode network and creativity 28:57 How context shapes friendship 32:41 Vulnerability, touch, and deeper connection 40:26 Dunbar's Numbers and relationship circles 45:13 AI, loneliness, and pseudo-relationships 51:45 AI in healthcare — how far will it go? 1:00:22 What inspired Sankalp's research 1:02:20 Misdiagnosis, medication, and a near-death experience 1:07:10 Three lessons for motivation, connection, and happiness

 summary In this engaging conversation, Dr Shanae Jefferies explores the sociological forces shaping society, the state of the US and global community, and the importance of authentic human connection in an increasingly digital world. She emphasises the need for honesty in leadership, community building, and focusing on individual tasks to foster peace and understanding.  keywords sociology, community, US politics, social media, AI, human connection, leadership, societal change, mental health, social cohesion  key  topics The role of sociology in understanding society Global influence of national policies and actions The importance of community and social support Impact of social media and AI on human interaction Leadership qualities needed for a peaceful future  guest  name Dr Shanae Jefferies Titles The Sociology of Society: How Global Processes Shape Us Building Community in a Digital Age: Insights from Dr Shanae Jefferies  sound bites "America is more divided than ever" "Human connection is irreplaceable" "We all have similar core needs" Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Sociology and Its Importance 03:00 Current State of the US and Global Perception 06:00 Community and Collective Needs 09:03 Political Climate and Group Conformity 12:00 The Role of AI in Politics and Society 14:44 Privacy Concerns in the Digital Age 17:35 Self-Perception and Societal Standards 20:52 Socialization and Gender Differences 23:30 Conclusion and Reflections on Identity 36:16 Body Image and Social Perception 38:36 The Importance of Community Connection 41:16 Navigating Online Communities 46:11 The Role of Technology in Human Interaction 51:18 The Need for Human Connection 55:49 The Impact of COVID-19 on Social Interaction 01:01:36 Cultural Change and Individualism     Transcript    Dr Shanae Jefferies - transcript     Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01) Shanae, welcome to the show.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (00:04) Thank you for having me.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06) This is such a joy, and you are such an expert. have so much to share. What do you want people to know first about what you do and what you teach everybody?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (00:20) Okay, so I do this thing called sociology of the week on my TikTok. And I really like the big part of this is that I love sociology, and I want sociological research to be respected in kind of the way that psychological research is. Because it's about how society is forming around us and how that impacts our person. So I feel like that we should say more about this and in more conversations that are just like, research is only science. Research is also studying society and its people. So yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:57) It really is. So is the difference that psychology tends to focus on the individual, and does sociology look at the broader collective and what we're all doing as a trend?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (01:09) Kind of. It's in there. Sociology is looking at the processes of societies like the infrastructures and the institutions that are shaping us, like are shaping around us, but also in a global atmosphere, like what are we doing in one country that affects another country? As first-world or first-class or whatever countries, what are we doing that actually is degrading others in a non-like super tense way, but just like affecting other nations to keep them under our foot or in this stronghold. So I think like just seeing like what how the nations come into play, how the institutions within one nation. And of course, I'm from the US, so all of this feels like, my goodness, please help us. But like...   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:05) Okay, on that note, how are you feeling in the US right now? I saw some headlines in the news. What's your main feeling and impression of your nation and the world right now?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (02:20) Embarrassment. I think the rest of the world kind of knows that this is not the unified American foot that is being put forth now. I hope that they do. But right now, we kind of just have to sit and watch what happens because we're not in control. So embarrassed is the big one. I'm going to say embarrassed.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:48) I feel so much compassion for that. I know that Americans can feel very patriotic, and the impression I get from the outside is that there's clearly division and has been for a long time. I think in some ways, other countries are having feelings like that as well. Over here in Australia, the thing that really sunk in deeply for me, did you hear about what happened in Bondi?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (02:54) Yeah.   Yeah.   I did not.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:20) So basically, there was an attack on Jews in Bondi. Yeah.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (03:27) Where is Bondi? Melanie Suzanne Wilson: So, it's basically, it's a beach area in Sydney. So that made headlines everywhere. mean, you know, politicians in other countries were commenting on it. It was it was huge. And I think that Aussies aren't always feeling divided. Mean, I have talked with a few Americans on the show to get the impression that there's this intense division, especially when there's the 'conservative and opposite'. But I think that what I'm sensing over here, at least in my impression, is that there's something underlying going on and people are losing faith in politics and   Dr Shanae Jefferies (03:59) Yeah, yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:17) I have to be so careful in how I word this. I don't want to say people are losing faith in government; I think that people don't know who they can trust at the moment. Is that the sort of feeling you're getting?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (04:23) Yeah.   I think it's so much deeper than that. I'll speak as a Black woman, but knowing how the government and systemically we've been treated, we knew better than to have any faith or hope into the government system. So like after the election, we weren't surprised, we were disappointed, but we weren't surprised. So I think now it's coming to where other racial groups, ethnicities, other class groups are starting to feel some pressure about who they are and their freedom or their privileges in the US. And that's what's having people say, like, we're more divided than ever before. Or like, I didn't know it was this bad. We used to be a better America. And so as a Black person and as a Black woman, I don't think I know a better America. It feels like they're doing to other people what they've done to us. And still, not everybody is affected by this. So it's still like, who knows how much longer this could go on before people have had enough and are ready to do something.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:39) I want to find a way to express a lot of love and care towards the people who are feeling like or experiencing that their needs aren't being met while also trying to be loving towards people who perhaps have been socially connected with some of these spaces that turned into something they don't expect and   Dr Shanae Jefferies (06:04) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:07) The thing that's becoming a parallel on what you're saying is that more and more groups are wondering how their needs can be met in this era. I mean, over here, the special needs people are, that has been a flag that's getting waved these days. I'd say maybe a decade ago or, more recently, the rainbow flags were getting waved a bit more with an effort change. And what I'm saying, though, is that we've lived in a lot of change post-COVID, things like that. And do you think that everybody is wondering, okay, how can everybody have what they need? But also, I also need to ask this feeling of feeling like, I'll rephrase that, this feeling of our collective needs as a group were never met. I can see that as being manifest in perhaps the Indigenous communities over here and in other spaces. So what do you think is the next step for people who are having that experience and need to find a next way forward relating to everybody.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (07:36) I think that those people are finding community. And so that's something really special. Under the circumstances, we wish that they were better. But people are finding community, and they're finding support in that, in places where previously they might have used their own resources or used the government. So community is coming out of this.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:00) That's really powerful. Do you think that historically, community was a way for everybody to cope decades or centuries ago? Do you think that's something we need to return to?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (08:16) Yeah, I think it looks different now, which is why people are like, no, let's not do it or they don't recognise it. So even like the threads community, like we're talking because I responded to a post you made on threads, you know? So we're finding community in social places, or sorry, we're finding community in, what is the word? Internet? Online.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:39) Yeah, online.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (08:41) Thank you. We're finding community online within different groups, and we're finding some commonalities. We still, this is what I wanted to say to your previous question. I don't know how tense it is in other nations or other countries, but it did feel particularly like a stomp in the face going to work the day after election day that we had, like the day after the presidential election day, because you know for a fact that the people around you have voted against your best interests completely, you know? And then you go to work, and we're one big happy community, and we help each other and yay, yay, yay. And it's like, we can't ignore this, you know? So even finding community within the workplace is something like, okay, now we're siloed over here because we're not the majority. Like the majority, I live in Texas, so red flag waving state very conservative. And so you find your pocket of liberals, and you're just like, I'm so glad to have found you, you know? Like it's not common that you see them in the workplace because the state is so heavily populated with conservatives in like these bigger places, these bigger cities and the smaller ones as well. You know.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:06) I have a couple of responses to that. Firstly, I'm going to be very vague in sharing that I knew someone in politics relatively recently who didn't actually fully believe or align with some of the statements that person was making. And so I wonder if there's a sense of conformity from some of those groups that you're   Dr Shanae Jefferies (10:09) Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:35) not aligning with, it's possible. I'm wondering if a bunch of them feel like they have to toe the line everybody else is towing.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (10:46) I think so. think it's groupthink, it's group conformity. When the people who are doing well are saying one thing, you want to be in that group. And so I think they find whatever unites them with that group, and they hold that line. It takes a lot of courage, I think, to step over the line, because the line is so bold. So yeah, I think. Yeah, I'll say that. Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:13) Absolutely, absolutely. It takes courage to do something that contradicts the standards that you're surrounded with.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (11:23) Yeah, yeah, I can say, and this feels like, I don't know how politically deep we're going to get, but we just have the, okay, we just have the primaries in America. And that's when we pick.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:31) Well, we'll go anyway.   What's that?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (11:40) Who is going to be on the ballot in November? So this isn't the presidential election. It's like the state, like, who do we want in the House of Representatives? Who do we want in the Senate? Who do we want to be the governor of our state? Things like that. And so you have one person from the, no, one person from the Democratic party, one person from the Republican party. And so maybe somebody from an independent party as well. But there are like, I think this year there may have been like governor eight potential governor candidates that we had to vote for. And so whoever is on that majority is then who runs against the majority Republican governor candidate, which is the same governor that we've had for years and years. And I really hope that we change, but that's who's going to be opposing them. And so now we concentrate all of our like power, our voting power against that or with, sorry, we concentrate all of our voting power with that person who aligns with our party.   And that way it's like, it's, yeah, yeah, it's focused. Like it's what you're going for, one candidate or the other. It's not a confusion. And so now I think because of how conservative the right has been, and by, I don't just mean like conservative values. I mean, like blatant lies. Like we know that Trump has set like blatant lies, and we're sitting there fact-checking, and there's no. There's no accountability, there's no repercussions. So things like that are making some of the people on the conservative side get just a tad bit more liberal. It's not all of them. It probably isn't the majority of them. But that is where we get to see people toeing the line like, OK, that's the last straw. We famously had an ice blizzard a few years ago, and our governor was in Mexico on vacation.   He didn't care. You know, things like that have people on the conservative side, like maybe we should see what this other guy's talking about.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:49) What people need is to see signs and actions indicating that the person representing them really cares and will show up when there are crises and when they need something. This isn't just… and I think this is probably happening in a lot of countries. People don't want someone to just sit in a parliament and talk about things for them. People want someone who is going to show up when it's needed.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (14:51) Yeah.   Yes, absolutely.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:58) What do you think the next leaders need to do to show that for everybody?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (15:06) Gosh. I personally would appreciate if they were honest.   You know, like not the, you know, we're here for citizens, and I've always believed in us, and hey, it's looking a bit bleak outside. And so we've got to get it together. Like these, these communities that you formed are great, but we need to band together as a bigger society. And so we can do these specific things that he's willing to change. It's two men. So, yeah. But the specific things that these people in power are willing to do, I think they need to say them and stand on them while also being honest. If you don't plan to unite Texas, don't say that you do. There's a lot of propaganda. There's a lot of bread-crumbing people to hopefully get their vote or to have them at least feel like they're misaligned with the other side. So if they're not going to vote for you, at least they won't vote for the other person. They're just not going to vote because they don't feel an allegiance to any side. And so I've seen that happen a few times, where people just don't turn out to the polls because they disagree with one candidate but can agree with the other side.   So I think things like that, if we're being honest, if we're calling a thing a thing and being direct about what we're going to change and how we're going to help and possibly what we may have to wait for help, you know, like we can't, we can't change everything as soon as the two years start. But to say that these are my priorities and then I want to work on this, you know, if I, if we have more space, if we have more room in the budget, we can work on these secondary things, but primarily this is what is most important and it's what actually like affects the people, the majority of the people, not just what affects you and the people who want to identify with you as a politician.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:07) What aligns with what the majority of the people need. Do you think part of the way to even identify that collective need is to find a common thread as human beings? There must be some things that we all need regardless of where we are in the political spectrum. Or do you think that the solutions to those problems are contrasting so much because people's values are so contrasting.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (17:38) I think it's the latter. think we're past being one America. They'll tell you that the most united the United States was on 9-11.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:40) Sure.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (17:49) That's when we were like, oh, America is under attack. But any other time we're fighting within ourselves. Like it's, you know, we're fighting different, we're fighting racial groups, we're fighting ableism, we're fighting sexism, like all of these, all of the isms, we are actively fighting against each other. So that was the one day that we were like, wait a minute, America has been attacked. Not my home. But after that, we immediately went back to fighting each other. So I think...   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:17) Instantly.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (18:20) Yeah, it's like racism hasn't ended because 9-11 happened. You still had people with their prejudices on the campgrounds of 9-11. You know, like they need help, but they still are, they still have the values that they have. So, yeah, it's pretty, I don't mean to be so bleak about the US. There's other great things, you know? But this is, I think, this is the state of our the atmosphere, like the atmosphere that the government has created and has just kind of been propelled. And we know that there is fault within us for propelling the system, but not all of us. Didn't all do this. So it's like we're suffering because other people have voted this way.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:05) Juicy question, and I really hope I'm not going to frustrate too many people in politics and media who might notice we're having this conversation. But I'm so curious, do you think that other bureaucracies or other institutions are supporting and fuelling what's going on with these government issues? The obvious one to list is   Dr Shanae Jefferies (19:09) No.   Melanie Wilson (19:33) The media, or perhaps there are some social groups. know in a few countries there'll be a social group that's kind of nudging the government behind the scenes. Do you think that's going on?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (19:44) Absolutely. There's no doubt. They come out and say that directly. So, most recently, is the story how I heard it or how I read it. Claude AI and another AI company were contacted to be part of President Trump's backing. He wanted their money to fuel what he's doing now.   And so notably, this is why we know about it. They said, no, no, we won't. We don't agree with what you're doing. We don't want to stand behind it. We don't want to be aligned with it at all. So ChatGPT comes and says, wait, we've got money. What do you need us to do?   And so now we're seeing it's an uptick, but there's like a boycott or removal from ChatGPT to these other companies that are either less aligned or not aligned with the current administration. So it's up. Yeah, they're not hiding it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:49) Okay, that is giant. Because whichever side of politics we are on, we have that question of do we want the AI companies that we are, frankly, at this point, depending on for so much of our everyday life, do we want them financially contributing to political efforts and potential political outcomes?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (21:08) Yes.   Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:17) That's a giant question. And it also shows this is where someone in politics knew there would be money, and this is where someone was turning. There are lots of places to find money, and this is where they were looking for funds. That is giant. And the understanding I have of using AI is that   Dr Shanae Jefferies (21:26) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:43) If you have been using GPT for quite a while, it will have an understanding of this context within it of the individual of you, of me, and what we need, our tendencies, our habits. And then a lot of people are feeling like they are starting from scratch with Claude and others. And so we need to then rebuild.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (21:58) Nope.   Yeah, I, so this is what I did personally. I asked Chat, what does another AI bot need to know about me to continue our conversations? And he made a list, you know, there were bullet points, there were things I like, things I don't like. And so you upload that file to Claude or whoever else. And now it's in there, you know, it's in there.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:20) Nice.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (22:33) And so, like creating GPTs like the different bots within ChatGPT, like you would drop a file for like background knowledge, so I assume helping that you can do the same thing with quad where, like, if you drop the file that the other chat made It will continue those conversations. I don't know that everything is transferred, you know, but it has a basic running knowledge of who you are, what you do, how your tendencies are, what you're searching, why you're searching, all of that.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:07) We have so much trust in those AI platforms even now. And I don't know if we are always thinking about how much information we are giving to those companies.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (23:12) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, no, no. At this point, I think that there have been so many data breaches that it just, at this point, I should just give you my information, you know? Because, yeah, like, who are we kidding? You get it from different companies that collect my data. So let me just tell you it all so you can help me in the best way possible. It's kind of the approach that some people are taking, me being.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:32) Just hand it over.   That's really interesting because a few years ago, I was doing some writing when I was hired by a company, I was doing some writing about cybersecurity, and there were so many efforts to try to prevent breaches, and it's good to prevent things. Sure. I mean, you want to make yourself safe, just like you're going to lock a door or whatever, but it feels like there are so many ways for this to happen. I saw some conversations that other people had online about how someone can hack your phone, and you wouldn't even realise. So it seems like the technology is at the point where we don't expect privacy.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (24:23) Mm-hmm.   Right. It's a risk that you know you have to take. And we also have companies that capitalize off that. You know, like, if your information is somehow hacked, if you pay our subscription each month or each year, we're going to tell you immediately, and we'll help you fight it. You know, everywhere somebody has made like a capitalistic ploy. So, yeah, it's I don't know that we assume that our information is private anymore.   Yeah. Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:01) Pretty much the moment you email someone, even, I wonder, even having audio calls, sometimes Facebook Messenger, right? You can call someone on Messenger, and I don't really know. I'm just guessing I don't know how much privacy is in that because it is going through an app.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (25:10) Yeah.   Yeah. And also this, I'm pretty sure Facebook backs the current administration. Like they are funding the current administration. And so again, we're giving our input here. Like, there's no other way for us to protect it. I think within reasonable thought. So either you are not on the internet at all, or you know that your data, your information, your tendencies, whatever you value, wherever you go to work, all of that is free information so that they can market to you. But also so that something else might happen. We don't know what, but I don't know what else they would be using information for. They say it's for marketing, but you have a lot of information on us. You know, it can't all be marketing. Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:18) I knew someone, and I'll be so vague here, I knew someone in government who, many years ago, said to me that these days people make their personal information publicly available anyway. It's not even a difficult task to find personal info. Look at how much we put on our public profiles readily available.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (26:48) Right.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:49) Someone actually asked me, do I think that someone could have been, now, of course this wasn't happening, but someone asked me if someone could have been stalking me through my social media. And I said, well, I don't typically tell social media, this is the precise location I'm in right now. Do you remember the days when we would check into a location on Facebook? I'm at this cafe right now. I don't think we all think that's a good idea anymore.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (27:08) Okay.   I thought that was so weird. You know, when it's like, these seven people have been to this airport before. And you're like, why would you? You wouldn't just say you're going on a vacation. Like, why would you check into the airport? Do we need to know if something happened? We do. Do y'all have the alerts of like, if a natural disaster just happened, it'll alert the social circle of that person that you're marked safe from that natural disaster?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:46) I got the understanding that there's a button people can click if they want to. I mean, look, the computers and the apps privately know all of this stuff because the location tracking is probably constant. But in terms of what someone can publicly Google, that's a bit different.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (28:04) Yeah. I think, so I try not to do this, but even like posting like photos of where you are, it's gotten to the point where a lot of influencers do not post until they are in another location, you know, just so that nobody is tracking them, because stalking is prone to happen for people like they, they become obsessed, they become super fans. And so they're looking for you now in real life, because they think that they know you.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:32) I actually take a bit of comfort in doing the opposite. I might say, people are hanging out at this place. I just want to be a bit quiet somewhere else. And so I know everybody's over there. I'll go over here to just have some peace. No, no, but I mean, other people do. And look, actually, a friend said to me that there's no privacy in life anyway. So what difference does it make?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (28:48) Do you post it?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:02) I mean, you don't have to be very precise. No, I don't. It's so funny. I'm saying this in a recording. Okay. I don't normally say precisely where I am. It got to the point where some people close to me wondered which area I'm in. I would say city, but some areas are smaller than that. But I mean, the world doesn't need to know everything about you.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (29:35) Yeah, what are they gonna do with that information? You know, like, I don't know. Some people, I won't say that stalking doesn't happen, I guess. But yeah, I just think you put the things out there in hopes that people will not go searching for it because it's so readily available. So yeah, I think.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:01) Oh, and it's worth comforting ourselves, right? And we do not need to get paranoid. And this is where perhaps your expertise and our personal experience can be drawn upon to say, okay, we're not going to get paranoid. I had a moment of wondering, oh, why are some people so fussed over what I'm putting online, blah, blah, blah. And I needed to pull myself in and say, people are thinking about themselves. And I think when there's   Dr Shanae Jefferies (30:24) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:31) That precaution of don't give the opportunity for something silly to happen, that's more like just a precaution. Like, don't leave your phone unattended in a public park, whatever. You don't do something silly. But we have to keep in mind, and just let me know if you agree, most people are in their own worlds.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (30:46) Yeah.   Yeah, yeah, they are. I've been doing a lot of self-development and stuff, and so that's one of the things - nobody's thinking about you. They're not. I read The Courage to Be Disliked, and that book game changer. But yeah, was like, nobody's thinking about you. They're not. When you, so like, I'll say.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:05) Yes!   Dr Shanae Jefferies (31:20) I guess the stereotype is that girls do this more. I don't know about guys doing it, but you know how, like some girls will take a picture and they look at it and they immediately go to their flaws. Like, can you see that? Like my hair is out of place, or you know, stuff like that. And so we think, like, my God, that's an awful picture. Everybody's going to notice everybody else is looking for themselves in that picture if they were there, you know?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:35) Yes.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (31:45) Like they're not looking at you specifically. They're looking at who else was in the group. Where is my face? Because the other girls in the group are going to say, my God, my hair. My God, my belly. My God, my shirt, something. And so it's just like we're not; nobody is focused on you. And once you get past that, it makes it a little easier to go about the world because you know that they're focused on themselves. They're not looking at what you're doing or what you're not doing. So I think it's a good and a bad, you know, because they're not conscious, but also, you're not conscious of my flaws, and that's what I appreciate.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:20) I totally agree, and we all do it. We all have something we feel self-conscious of. My thing lately was that I don't like the shape of my arms, even though I dropped the weight, the pounds, kilos, whatever you're into, and yet my arms are just not what I want them to be. And then, and the tummy as well, but   Dr Shanae Jefferies (32:28) Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:48) Everybody will have something, and I think a lot of women can relate to that, but I think a lot of men probably can relate to that as well. There's an ideal they want to look like, and the reassurance. I hope you've had this experience as well, that normally people accept you and actually like how unique you are, a lot more than we realise.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (32:50) Yeah.   Yeah, that's I'll take a picture, and I'll be like, my God, delete that. And they're like, no, you look stunning. And it's just like my collar was turned up here, you know, like it's one little thing. I'm like, I throw the picture away, and they're like, no, this is we all look great. Let's keep this one. So in group settings, of course. But yeah, even like.   And I hope I'm not taking this off on a tangent. But even doing selfies and things like that, women, I guess, are more open about how they attack themselves when they see that picture. Not to say that men don't also have their flaws that they look at. It's just not, what's the word? It's not the common etiquette for men to say, my gosh, look at my beard. my, look at my hairline. Look at blah, blah. Like they just say it, they acknowledge it, and they keep going. And I think it's another part of everybody not paying attention to you. They're paying attention to themselves. So yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:17) Interesting.   I wonder, maybe the men are not thinking about it as much. Maybe they are not talking about it as much. Or I think women have been a collective support group for each other for a long time because a lot of us women grew up with the magazines, the TV advertisements, and then it's going to be safe to assume that in some forms, the ideal images on social media probably were growing, possibly more for us at some point than for men. I know that's a bit of a generalisation, but you know, I think that it had to be females taking up the filtering apps, all of those things. And, but either way, I think because a lot of us grew up with, especially the nineties, thin ideal things like that, we've had to emotionally cope with that inner battle for quite a while. I mean, my filter that I have is I was actually too thin in my early teens, and I felt, I felt personally embarrassed because there was that stereotype that you had to have an eating disorder if you were thin, and then I was too big, going too far in the other direction. And do you think women always either feel too thin, too big. Do you think we don't know how to just be satisfied with how we are?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (35:56) I think so, we're socialised this way. So this is the sociology coming back into it. So when we are young children, girls or females tend to be socialised in groups. Like you are looking for your community friend group. On the other hand, males or boys, they are socialised to like competition. know, like, I'm better at this than you. Or girls are like, let's play in a collective group. You know, let's hold hands. And guys are like, no holding hands, and I'm racing you, and I'm going to beat you. So I think like the socialisation of how we grow up, of course, that changes us and our projections of like how we see ourselves in our identity as we grow up and as we're adults. But also, I think that we see a lot more focus on like women and their body weight or their appearance in the media. And so that also socialises us. Like you said, like, if you're too thin, people are going to assume that I have an eating disorder or maybe that I don't have enough money at home or something like that. And you're just like, no, so I have to self-correct so that people don't think this thing about me. And again, people aren't thinking about you; they're thinking about themselves. I know it's a bit different in like high school and stuff, but once you get to adulthood, people are thinking about themselves. The things that we were socialised to care about in high school are no longer concepts for us. And you just, that's that transition period to move through it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:22) That's the reassurance for everybody. That's what we can come back to for a lot of this, partly because we are simply thinking about ourselves, because that's how we are wired. And also, people are probably too busy as well to fuss over everybody else.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (37:38) Yes, yes, that's something I remind myself of. Like, even when I'm busy and just like straight shot to where I'm going and where I'm going and where I'm going, I'll see other people, and I'll think like, my gosh, what a cute skirt.   And so I'll tell the lady, you know, and that like, I love when people do that to me because a compliment. Thank you so much. But also, you'll see people who are just as busy in their day. And it reminds me like there are people who have young children that need to go to the store and come back, you know, like it's not, it's not about me trying to make my way through Costco with the least amount of attention or conversation. There are also people here who had to bring their children because maybe they could not put them in childcare or something, or like maybe they are out of work, and so they are now babysitting. You know, like there's so many other factors in life that we even see that helps us be like that person is not worried about me, and so as we apply that to other people, we're more like we know that people are self-absorbed. We may try ourselves not to be as self-absorbed, but still we know that nobody is going around looking like, ⁓ my gosh, Melanie, what are you wearing today? I've been waiting for this all morning. You know, like nobody's saying that. It's not a problem.   So, we do have other problems, of course, but it's really about the identity that you have within yourself and how you've evolved that with the different roles and the different statuses that you've held. And you become into the person that you are right now, because that person might be different tomorrow based on the circumstances of today.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:22) This is leading perfectly to the question I was keen to ask, which is how we can use that mindset to then connect more with communities online and offline. I'm asking that because the thing I'm inspired by within what you are saying is to use the podcast as an example. I learned to think about the individual who is coming onto the show and it's not just, I think early on I just thought, okay, this person has this listed on their LinkedIn, but the context that I need to keep in mind and I say that, gosh, I had a four shot coffee before this, so I'll catch a breath, but the thing that I need to keep in mind is someone might have set aside an hour within a really busy day. Someone needs to get to their kids after, or a client might be waiting, or someone could have had a really long day, and it's their dinner time, and they're just so keen to eat afterwards. And that's one of the things I love about speaking, and it really translates after having talked to in-person audiences. It's not just what do I want people to hear; it's okay, where is their mindset, and what do they need in this moment, along with beyond today, and I think that communities would evolve so much if everybody could have that mindset, whether they are at a microphone or just having a chat within a group. Do you think so?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (40:53) Mm-hmm.   I believe so, yeah. I think again, like the way that we're building community, I love threads for that.   And it's mostly honesty, you know, like that's what you don't have to tear people down. You don't have to do all the things. It's just like, hey, I just had this experience. Isn't this funny? And you add a gift, you add whatever, you add a picture, and now we're all cackling, and we have 7.6K likes, you know? Like that's, it's not a personal attack on anybody. It's a reflection of what you wanted to share with the world, and you leave it there.   Of course, they're all trolls and people who just want to be negative online, but a lot of what I've seen, and again, I really enjoy threads these days, is that they don't pay it any mind. Like they don't.   You now have like a trolling comment, and it has zero likes and zero comments. So nobody's saying, hey, you, no, that's not right. You have to do blah, blah. We can govern ourselves. I don't need to govern you. You're not actually part of my community. So it's not a problem, you know? And so I think that's the thing with social media because it seems like other platforms, i.e. were...   It was great at the beginning, you know, like it was a great conversation starter. We were building community with people across the world. And then it got to be, this is about likes and comments and clicks and followers. And so let me just say the most absurd thing that I can think of, so that people like it or they interact because they know that it's wrong or against it. And so.   You know, there's two sides to every coin. So I don't know that we'll fix something without having a major problem on the other side. But that part of community of being able to share your actual day-to-day interactions, just what you feel, what your perspective is on it and leave it there. It's not bashing somebody else. You're not flowering it up. You're telling the truth, your truth, and it may be hilarious. And so we want to laugh.   It's a shared thought there, yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20) What I've seen is we found a current platform, and I think the ideal platform or the option is different in any other moment, but we found a platform for human storytelling. And there was probably a moment when Twitter was a space to say this happened in this moment, and then that happened in that moment, and it could have evolved into see this story on this link, whatever, but we also know that Twitter got filled, or at least infiltrated with bots, fake profiles, some sort of automated, I don't understand all of the tech, I like to be, look, I grew up around tech a little bit, a tiny bit, and I like to be the one who simplifies it to say, okay, something automated was going on, to be able to get a robot to say things or write things on Twitter. So it wasn't even all human. It's, I think it's a mix, let me know if you agree. think it's a mix of the robots and the humans who are trying to stir things up too much, and even Substack. had issues with Substack. So I think this is where your expertise comes in. It seems like the conflict just eventually comes into whichever space, and then people end up wondering, okay, where can I go to just have some common thread? Pardon the pun. We want that common thread because I've been talking with people from any countries, like what I was saying to you before we recorded, a lot of my guests are from anywhere and   Dr Shanae Jefferies (45:01) Yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:13) We all have very similar experiences, needs, and that's why years ago I was able to even connect in person. Years ago, years ago, I was able to connect socially with people from seriously polar opposite ends of the political spectrum, which is controversial and confusing to some and comforting to others because I just saw we all have different ideas of what we need or not, we all have the same core needs and different ways that we think that can be addressed like what we said earlier in our conversation. We all want to feel seen, we all want to make sure we can put food on the table, we all want to feel connected with human beings, all of those things. But we have different ideas about how that can happen, or even the word freedom gets interpreted in so many different ways these days. So the thing that's going on in threads is we're just all at the moment finding people who want to tell a story without judging, and I never want to be married to a platform, though. I want to emphasise that. Never marry a platform. Do you agree?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (46:39) Yeah.   Threads has a spot in my heart right now. Like it's my go-to social media app because my TikTok, I think it got like bot-heavy. Like I posted a video of me in South Africa, and then it was like, my gosh, you're in South Africa. We love you. And then it was like, go back home. Why are you here? Yeah. Go back home. When Do You Leave was one of the...   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:59) What? Seriously, go back home? What? I don't even understand what happened.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (47:08) One of the responses. So yeah, it's just like, I don't know if that's a person. I don't know if that's a bot, but that it breathes hate because now there are people like, she said that she was leaving on this day. You can't read, or you can't listen. And now we're bickering back and forth, you know? So it's that one seed of negativity that kind of blossoms even in a wave of positivity. So   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:22) My god!   Dr Shanae Jefferies (47:36) Yeah, I think that I would agree. It is it's funny how things are evolving because of course they're made to evolve, but we resist change so much. So the way that Facebook evolved to Instagram evolved into Twitter evolved into what was in the middle of that.   I think we have Blue Sky for a second, and Threads and Spill and all these other platforms. It's people searching for community. And unfortunately, sometimes that community that they're looking for can be hate. And sometimes the community that some people find themselves in are program bots. It's something that you would run into. But I'm sorry, I think I'm rambling. What was your question?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:23) No, no,   I think the tangents take us to the road less travelled.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (48:29) Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:31) And the bots, look, I think AI is super useful when, for example, you want to buy something, and you're just stuck with a step in the process, whatever, some of those things, the AI is handy for that, but people still want human interaction. And I know that the online platforms have been a way to find people, but the live human conversations are, I think, more valuable than ever, and it's awesome chatting with people online. It's great knowing, okay, this is so real, and I think one of the things that can make us more human is our unpredictability. AI, from what I understand, relies on predicting based on a past thing. However, I do believe personally I think that in person community matters as well. What you're saying is people are finding an online, we're wanting to find community online. So do you agree we need a way to essentially maintain the humanity and the peace?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (49:41) Mm-hmm.   I do, and I think that this is something that we, I'll say we as in whatever conscious thread space of America that I am in that shares it. If the Wi-Fi gets cut off, we don't know our neighbours. We don't know people in the city. We don't know how to get around. We don't know a lot of stuff that could save our lives. And so that...   Reliance is scary because again, if we and we're I don't know if we're on the brink of war, if we're actually in war, but in that case, that would be a… that's a great tactic. know, the people we can't mobilise, we can't stand against, we don't do these things because we sit in our households, and we've created such communities, beautiful communities online, but that lessens the social interaction that we have human to human. I'm reading this book called The Five. Gosh, now I forgot it.   It's something about the five wealths, the five sources of wealths or something like that. And social wealth is one of them. And it says that someone who does not have that social richness with like at least a few people that they can get deep with, they're going to be void of joy because that's something that brings you actual past happiness. You know that this person knows you, and you know where to find that person, and you know that they care about you. And so that intent, or that yeah, that intention of making that connection and keeping that connection is kind of what makes your days go by. It's what brings you what is the word?   Purpose. It's part of what brings you purpose. Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:46) Yes. And survival by the sounds.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (51:50) Yes, yeah, we you need that interaction. Those who we talk about in sociology, we talk about like socialisation and like nature and nurture. And then we talk about people that have grown up feral. And so it's just like the ways that they come back, or if they want to come back to the community. But they are missing that thing. In a lot of cases, the children or the people who have grown up feral have likened themselves or put themselves into another animal group. So even outside of the context of humanity, most animals grow up in a pack, or they have a pack and know about it. And so we see that these feral humans, I don't know if there's a better or more appropriate way to say that, but if it is just, that's what I meant.   They are looking for some sort of community, even if it's not human. You'll see people who may live alone, but they'll have a bunch of cats, they'll have a bunch of dogs, they have animals. That's what gives them purpose. They now have something to feed, something to play with, all of these things that you need social interaction for. So they find it in other places.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:05) are joining so much because we all disconnected from human interaction in COVID. I still walk around and see a few signs. I think around the transport, somewhere there were a few signs saying, keep as much distance from other people as possible. A sign is telling me that there is no reason for me to keep as much distance from other people as possible. That's the opposite of what we evolved to do. And if you are saying that people look for something else to connect with when they didn't or can't connect with humans, I would say the thing we gravitate to is the tech.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (53:58) Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:58) And   It's a tool, but it's not a person.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (54:02) It's not a person, and people they have. There are people who do treat it like a person. There are people who want to get married to their GPT bot and things like that. So they really like again, I think it's been this is something I notice where some questions that I might have, like asked a friend for advice. I now type into GPT, and I'm like, hey, what do you think about this? And so.   Theoretically, we are asking the joint cloud of what has been put into AI, like the human processes and the human, all of that components and logic that humans have put into AI. Theoretically, we're asking a bunch of people, what is the average opinion? But now we've forgotten to ask.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:52) Yes.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (54:56) The average person. You know, like we don't ask the person next to us that we need help. We put into chat, what are the steps to do? And it creates like an individuality that is just you and tech alone. It's like I can conquer the world with tech because it answers all my questions. It does everything that I need it to do. So I don't need people. And even like the automation and like grocery stores and things like that, we lose a lot of that social interaction and connection. And that's what gets people out of bed in the morning.   If you see somebody like going through the transition of retirement and they lose their title, they lose their status, they tend to retreat back to a silo. know, like they whatever job they had each day to go into or even if they had it online, you have people that you have to talk to, you know, like you, you say hello to your coworker, you go get coffee, you warm up your breakfast, you all of that is points for social connection that they now do not have access to anymore. And so in situations like that, you see them retreat into themselves. And for a lot of us, we saw other people doing that with COVID. If you don't have a reason to speak to people, if it's not customary to greet people anymore, we see less and less interactions, and we get less and less conversation.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:21) I saw that in such a profound way during the pandemic, it had a clear impact on young people who didn't really understand what was happening or how long it would go on. And they couldn't understand this social disconnection, getting away from the people who had provided a tribe for them. But now in this moment, I would say there are efficiencies. If you are really in a hurry, you know, I know there are benefits to the quick way to go shopping, but the anecdote I can give about this morning is I went to buy some oranges very quickly at the grocery store before this recording. And I was mentally adjusting to the sudden 8 a.m. start.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (56:57) Right. Yeah.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:18) And by the way, I love having a great morning where I can talk to someone, but I said to the person at the register, 8 am start. And that person said something like, that's not a great start to the day. And I realised it was my attitude. And it was that conversation with someone just selling oranges to me. I think leadership and therapy can come from any space because after hearing that interpretation from that person, I said, oh no, I can have joy for the opportunity to have this 8 am start! It was a real train as I was buying fruit.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (57:50) You got an early start.   Yes, yes. And I don't know if Chat [GPT] is going to tell you that, you know? But that is the thing. That person also had an early start to their morning. And instead of being like, crap, I'm here, they're like, productivity, I have the rest of my day to do what I need to do. You know, it's that human perspective that changes things and don't get me wrong, chat can be very encouraging, technology can be very encouraging when it's talking back to you, but to know that somebody else had that impact on your day is also helpful to them.   They saw your attitude, they saw your perspective change, and they know that they've said something that landed. So it's a two-fold straight. Chat does not care that you thought they had a good idea.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:44) I feel so grateful that I did grow up with people who saw the very early evolution of computers in some form. And I learned this simple logic that a computer will give you something based on what you put into it. And so, I have that interpretation of AI. I can tell you AI has been great for making the post-production of this podcast go a lot faster, and it's easier.   AI can help us to create things. The human connection is something that can't be replicated, or it's something that we evolved to need, and computers can be a tool. We are lucky that the computers can now draw upon the collective consciousness. Like what you were saying, it's referencing a collective, but that's different to two individuals having the trust. I think part of it is the trust because it's like what you were saying before about how if the WIFI went down, who would be there for you?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:00:39) Yeah, yeah. If we do not have that internet or something and it's so. What is the word? It's so… It's so easily destroyed. You know, like it's so vulnerable. That's the word. Wi-Fi and our connection to technology it makes us so vulnerable.   And so, yes, if we don't, we're not prioritising the human connection because the technology connection is so much easier to foster. I say anything to the computer, it gives me its response back. There's no emotion tied in. If I give emotions to the AI, the AI knows to say, there, there, it's gonna be all right and tell me whatever the next solution is. But you cannot hug AI human connection, human touch, some sort of body to body connection is necessary for the dopamine in our brain. Like you need it to be a happy human being. And so, cutting that out, again, there are good reasons for it, but there are reasons against it. And I think that we can cohesively use AI and like human and social networks and interactions.   We just have to be intentional about it. Like, we need to let people know that this is why you still need human interaction, not to force it on them so that they resist, but to say that this is helpful for you and me. Just, you know, it's mutually beneficial.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:19) You can have both. I follow some people online, and they were using AI and other tech to distribute their ideas to thousands or millions of people. I was just one of the viewers, but then seeing those people in person locally, the word energy was used. There was an energy. It was just totally different.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:02:21) You can't have them.   Mm-hmm.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:47) So even for a moment having that, it made a difference. But the thing I was keen to ask you about is, I'm wondering if part of the solution as we wind up is, I know, I feel like some of these needs to go through three hours. But I'm wondering, do you think we do need to think about other people more? And do you think that cultural change is possible.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:03:19) Absolutely, we should think about other people more because again, we're all focused on ourselves, and Culture has no choice but to change. It has to change. So we see the evolution We see the metamorphosis, whether we want to see it coming or not. There were people who fought tech tooth and nail, you know. There were people who didn't want to use a typewriter because hand script would go away, and now people's handwriting is either deteriorating or obsolete because we all use computers. Yes, things have changed, and we've lost certain things, but we've also gained other things. So that change is inevitable. No matter how you fight it, it just puts you on the later side of coming into that change. And so I think that is, I don't know that we can label it good or bad. I think it's just a thing. It's a process that has to happen; fighting it only delays the inevitable, and embracing it gives you an advantage. You know, did that answer your question?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:27) Kind of. I was thinking more about how we've been in an individualistic society, and we just, like we were saying before, we need to connect with community, and that means looking beyond ourselves, surely. Do you think so?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:04:32)   Yeah.   Say the last part you said that we something ourselves.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:45) I'll slow down. It's early. So I'm wondering if since we both know that we need to connect with community, do you think we need to remind ourselves to think beyond our personal individual selves and remind ourselves to think about other people more?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:04:48) Thank   Mm-hmm.   Absolutely. I think that I don't know if we could sum it up, and so that's the problem, but I think that is a huge majority of the problem that we have in our different nations and as a people in general. We're thinking a lot about ourselves. And then there's that I can't believe I forgot it. There is a word, is it? My gosh.   Words are escaping me, and it's not even 8 a.m. for me. There's something that means sameness. There's a word that means sameness. And so...   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:05:40) The common thread. So basically the things we all have in common.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:05:49) Not that, I'm thinking of groups of people tend to populate around people who are very similar to them. Yeah. Yeah. So we have, we'll have these pockets of community, and they'll just, yeah, yeah, you're talking to yourself. That's who you're around.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:05:57) Right, yes, we do.   Segmented and you know what the marketing, sorry to dive, in the marketing textbooks taught us, appeal to this segment, that segment it was well segmented separately.   Dr. Shanae (1:06:16) Yep.   Yeah, as if we don't have similar needs. Yeah. Yeah. If you phrase it this way, then this group is going to pay attention. And of course, it spreads within that group because one person has it. They tell their friends who have the similar problem as them. But this group over here has the same problem. They just call it something different. And now they'll never know the solution because these groups don't talk. So yeah, I do get a bit gung ho in there and yeah. So.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:06:48) Winding up, what is one key lesson that you think everybody needs to learn and act on so we can have a more peaceful future?   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:07:07) Just one thing.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:07:08) Or can make it three if needed. I normally ask three.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:07:11) Okay, one thing is what stuck for me, and I know there's a lot of good points from the book, so I don't want to undersell it, but I did. I just finished, maybe like a week or two ago, The Courage to be Disliked, and it had such an impact on me. Focus on your own task.   I think is the thing. Like we get to the point, and this may sound like hypocritical, but we get to the point where we start trying to police other people's lives, that we lose what's going on in our own.   So you're losing the script on reality because this person doesn't do something the same way that you did it. And so if you focus on your own task, you'll know that you need human connection. You need food, water, shelter, clothing, you know, like these are your basic needs. And so if you work on that, you create a community within itself. You're going to have to talk to the person at the grocery store. And it's not your problem to complain or sorry, it's not your task to complain about other things or to be hateful for other people. You focus on what you're doing. You have that human interaction with somebody else without judgment because it does not matter. It's not your task. And you keep it moving. So we think at some points we're forced to be in community. But also, some points you don't need community. We do not need a mob of hatred. We don't. We don't. So it just.   Sometimes those are the ones that are quickest to form. But also, I think...   That so that one is like coupled in with the let them theory. Let them do whatever they're going to do, and let me focus on. Yes, yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:08:58) Praise from Mill Robbins,   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:09:01) Yes, let them do what they're going to do and let me focus on what I'm going to do. Let me focus on what's important for me. So I think that if we, if everyone were to focus on their own task and solving those problems, we would probably get a lot further in a society because we have people jumping in this issue over here while they're leaving this issue to not…   So yeah, think that that's one big thing. I'll do two. I think that the other thing that we...   No, I think it sums it up in that one. Everything I have to say is in that, like you focus individually, you focus on healing yourself, and that makes for a better society because then you are able to interact with other people without bringing out hatred or derogatory remarks or anything like that. Once you are healed within yourself, you know you can go this far, and then you don't need to stretch anymore, and that gives the next person room to do their job so that you're not trying to do both.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:08) Amazing. Shanae, thank you so much for bantering, for talking, and I think we've had a great chat.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:10:12) Yes!   I've loved it. Yeah. Yeah. This has been great for me. Thank you for having me as a guest. This is amazing. Also, sorry about that 8 a.m. call time.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:27) I think this was the best way to start a Saturday.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:10:31) Awesome! And it's a, are you off on the weekends? Do you do, do y'all do?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:35) This is the only one for this weekend.   Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:10:39) Okay, well, yeah, enjoy the rest of your weekend.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:42) Yes, you too!

 content  type Interview  primary  goal Educational  summary In this insightful interview, Kym shares her unique approach to peak performance, blending kinesiology, yoga, and emotional mastery to help wellness professionals and female golfers overcome mental roadblocks. She discusses her personal journey through grief, her focus on holistic wellness, and practical strategies for managing emotions, routines, and self-care.  keywords peak performance, kinesiology, yoga, emotional mastery, wellness, golf, self-care, resilience, gratitude, mental health  key  topics Kym's background in sports kinesiology and energy medicine The role of movement, yoga, and emotional mastery in performance Personal journey through grief and using golf as a structure for life Strategies for managing emotions, discomfort, and balance The importance of routines, gratitude, and play in well-being  guest  name Kym Coco  key  frameworks Hand Model of Wellness Energy Medicine Principles Mind-Body Connection Strategies  action  items Practice micro breaks and pauses during the day Start a gratitude journal and reflect nightly Try different styles of yoga to find what suits you best Use visualization and reprogramming techniques for emotional balance Titles Unlocking Peak Performance: The Power of Movement and Mindset How Yoga and Kinesiology Transform Wellness and Golf  sound bites "Beliefs can make us feel safe or unsafe." "Gratitude puts on the lens of appreciation." "We are more powerful than we think." Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Peak Performance Coaching 02:05 The Journey into Golf and Personal Transformation 04:59 Navigating Grief and Finding Purpose 08:48 Community Connection After Loss 10:10 Emotional Navigation in Coaching 13:59 Holistic Approach to Wellness 17:02 The Quest for Balance in Life 22:01 The Importance of Nature and Movement 22:44 Yoga: A Lifelong Practice and Teaching Journey 25:54 Layers of Yoga: Beyond Movement 29:34 Embracing Discomfort: Lessons from the Mat 35:42 Miracles and Transformation: A Personal Journey 38:50 Caregiving: The Gift of Presence 48:10 Energy Awareness: Adapting to Life's Cycles 53:30 Empowerment and Play: Keys to a Fulfilling Life  resources Kym's Book: Miracle on the Mountainside - https://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Mountainside-Kym-Coco/dp/XXXXXX Energy Medicine Resources - https://www.energymedicine.com Yoga Resources and Sequences - https://www.yogaresources.com  guest links Website - https://www.kymcoco.com Twitter - https://twitter.com/kymcoco LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/kymcoco  

Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.    Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events.  https://www.motivatecollective.com/join   -    content  type Interview  primary  goal Educational  summary Jesse Cruz shares his inspiring journey from military service to personal growth, faith, and impactful storytelling. Discover how faith, self-awareness, and strategic networking can transform your life and career.  keywords personal development, storytelling, faith, military, growth, leadership, motivation, self-awareness, coaching, success  key  topics Jesse Cruz's military experience and lessons learned The role of faith in personal transformation Strategies for effective storytelling and personal branding The importance of community, mentorship, and continuous learning  guest  name Jesse Cruz  key  frameworks Gift of Life Framework Storytelling for Impact  action  items Hire a coach to refine your storytelling skills Share your story from a place of healing Invest daily in personal growth and faith Titles From Military to Mastering Your Story: Jesse Cruz's Journey to Impact Unlocking Your Gift: Lessons from Jesse Cruz on Personal Growth  sound bites "Don't focus on what others have." "Focus on serving, not judging." "Find your people to grow and thrive." Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Jesse's Military Background 00:26 Dealing with the Challenges of Deployment 01:18 Deciding to Leave the Military for Family 01:28 Creating a New Life Through Faith and Environment 02:30 Reflections on a Year of Personal Loss and Growth 03:32 The Gift of Life and Finding Your Purpose 05:04 Transitioning to Youth Advocacy and Community Impact 05:41 Advice for Young People and Social Media Realities 06:54 Faith as a Catalyst for Change 08:20 Peace Amidst Challenges: The Power of Faith 10:05 How Faith Could Have Changed Jesse's Military Experience 11:49 Sharing Your Story for Healing and Impact 15:22 Balancing Vulnerability and Healing in Storytelling 16:57 The Importance of Inner Work and Healing 18:19 Starting Your Personal Brand with Social Media 19:57 Overcoming Fear and Serving Your Audience 21:48 Finding Your People and Growth in the Right Environment 25:01 Advice for New Military Members and Life After Service 26:18 Making a Career in Paid Speaking 27:00 Three Key Lessons for Personal and Professional Growth     ...   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective community 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.   https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979   Transcript   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01) Jessie, welcome to the show.   Jesse Cruz (00:03) Thank you for having me.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:04) You have been quite a speaker, and you have quite an experience. I saw that you worked in the military. Do you want to share anything about that first?   Jesse Cruz (00:15) Yeah, so I joined the military in 2007, was there until 2011, and I was in the army, and I was deployed in Iraq for a year.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:27) My goodness. Tell me anything about that.   Jesse Cruz (00:32) Yeah, I mean, it was one of the scariest things of my life. I had a child that was just born, and then within 72 hours, she wouldn't see me again for like a year. So she was born, and then I left. And that was really hard for me to deal with, is leaving so soon after she was born. And then being there for a year was tough, but I couldn't wait to come home and...   So I decided when I got back home that I would get out of the military so I could be involved and be around and be in her life because being away from her for that long was not fair to her, and that's not the kind of dad I wanted to be.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:18) Absolutely, a whole year. So what did you do to change your life and to create freedom after a year away?   Jesse Cruz (01:29) Yeah, well, I mean, most importantly is I returned back home because I was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas, for a while. got back and came to New York State, where I'm from, and got involved in my faith and my church. Very important to me. Started hanging out with different people, different friends and started to surround myself with a different environment of people upon returning home so I could kind of leave behind like a wild life that I was living because I was not living maybe like a really good life at that time and I realized that I needed to do better for her and for me and so I really had to change the people I was spending time with.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:14) Okay, so you were surrounding yourself with faith-based people and people who are responsible, and it sounds like it was a wild time. said, what was it about the, what happened? What can you share about the year away?   Jesse Cruz (02:30) I mean, that year away, I was, I just felt so lost. You know, I spent so much time away from the people I cared about the most to do something I didn't fully love or have the passion to do. And so I felt like a complete, like a failure, really, because I wasn't fulfilled. This wasn't my purpose. I didn't have meaning in it, you know? And so just being there.   I was blessed with the opportunity to have some great guys I was with. I became very close with and care deeply about until this day. We're still very close. But it was a big learning time about me, about who I am and what I want out of life and what I don't want out of life, because that's also extremely important as well.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:23) I'm wondering what words of wisdom do you have for people who are starting or ending a journey with that sort of work?   Jesse Cruz (03:32) Yeah, I think it comes down to knowing how you're And until you've learned how you're uniquely gifted, you'll wander from thing to thing trying to find where you fit in this world. And so that's why it's so important to really learn about the great gift that you've been given. I like to use the metaphor of like, it's like the gift of life under a tree, everybody has a gift with their name on it, under that tree.   And some of us are too scared to go to the tree and open up the gift. Some of us are excited to open up the gift and can't wait to see what's inside. But then there's other of us who are so consumed and concerned with what everybody else got in their gifts that we get so distracted by the gift that they have, we don't get to appreciate our own. And so just what do you want to do with the gift you've been given, and don't focus on what other people have. Don't be concerned with their gift. Just be thankful that you have one and then open up that gift and then share it with as many people as humanly possible.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:45) Right, find your thing and don't worry about what everybody else is doing.   Jesse Cruz (04:49) Absolutely.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:51) Absolutely. So you got into speaking eventually, but after the military, did you do some sort of mainstream work or what did you end up doing?   Jesse Cruz (05:04) Yeah, so I was a youth advocate. So I was mentoring youth and families in the communities which I was from. And so I started to do that, and that was extremely rewarding. I was really making a difference. I am making an impact. I was helping kids who, you know, maybe had a lot of disadvantages in life and being there to support them along the journey. So that was a huge change of scenery for me that I'm thankful for, and being able to help the next generation in that way was a huge blessing.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:38) What do the young people need to know now?   Jesse Cruz (05:41) They need to know that not everything that you see on social media is actually real. I just had this conversation with my daughter just yesterday, and I had to remind her, don't ever compare your chapter one to somebody else's chapter 20. It's easy to look at someone's highlight reel and look at all the followers that people have and all the great posts that people have, right? No one's in there really posting their losses. They're just not doing that. And so we gotta understand that, yeah, some people are going to win big, they're going to do well. They may seem further ahead than you, but you don't know what they had to go through to get to that. So my encouragement to the youth is stop comparing where you're starting to where somebody else finished. And just only comparison you need to make is the comparison with yourself. That's it.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:30) think we all need to learn that.   Jesse Cruz (06:32) Yeah, most definitely.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:33) Definitely. Especially anyone who's trying to build a career and then seeing the end result of someone else for sure. So, sorry, how did faith play, sorry, how did faith play a part in changing?   Jesse Cruz (06:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah well, I spent most of my life not having any and I realized that there has to be more like the emptiness that I'm feeling the depression that I'm experienced the anxiety that felt never-ending there had to be something else there had to be something greater and I had a lot of struggles a lot of addiction a lot of pain a lot of problems   And I realised that I was trying to fix it myself. And I thought that by my own willpower, I could literally just do all the fixing. But then I got to the point where I realis]ed that I can't live like this no more. And then I had a conversation with God, and I said, you know what? If you're real, I'm gonna give my life to you, and we'll see how this thing goes. And when I said that, it was like the first time I felt peace in my life. Now that doesn't mean I still don't have challenges and problems. But what I learned in that moment is that you can have peace and still have problems. I just had all the problems. But if I can learn how to have peace through a problem, that's a different level of happiness that I had never experienced before. And so faith is the number one thing in my life. It is what gets me through everything.   And it is the foundation of what I build my life, my family, and my business on.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:26) It sounds like part of having faith is detaching and letting go from the pressure to put everything on our own shoulders, and you can hand things over to something else.   Jesse Cruz (08:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah, most people and I'm included in this is. I didn't come to the faith sooner because I wanted to be in control. Because I think I know best. Because I think I have the answers. I had a serious problem with pride and ego to believe that I couldn't just figure this all out. And then eventually, I just got too tired of just trying to figure it out. I tried everything to fill the hole in my heart, and nothing worked. And only thing that was able to really give me that peace and fulfilment was God.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:21) So it was letting go of the ego, partly.   Jesse Cruz (09:25) Yeah, think that's a daily battle for all of humanity, but I think you have to die a million ego deaths to actually come out the other side of being the person you're supposed to be. I think every day is a test of the ego. And some days, I'll do well. Other days, I may fail miserably. But I just get back on the saddle again and keep going, because I know that eventually I can improve, I can make progress, I can get better.   Letting go is one of the hardest things to do, but it is also one of the most freeing.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:00) Do you think that your military time would have been different if you had faith?   Jesse Cruz (10:05) 100%. I lived a wild life while I was in the military. God was not a regular part of my life at all. And that's when I was at my worst, you know, I was mentally unstable, emotionally impoverished. It was a really dark season in my life, and I didn't have any faith, and I do believe if I did have faith at that time in my life, even though it was a challenging season, I would have been able to make better decisions along the way.   I do believe I would have been able to make the best of a hard situation.   I can't go back and change it, but I can only reflect on it now. Going forward is the more a person has faith, which I believe is one of the most important decisions anyone can make, the more peace they will have. And I do believe all of us want more peace in our life. We want more freedom in our life. We want more joy in our life. And you can have those things without faith, but it's a million times harder.   So I've just decided that I wanna have those things, so they're probably gonna have faith.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:27) Fair enough. So it was that much of a wild time, and you need the thing. You need it. So what's, what's your key message? Are there any other key messages you normally give to everybody aside from don't compare yourself to other people on social media? What else do people normally need to know?   Jesse Cruz (11:49) I would say people need to know that they have a story and that story matters. I think sometimes people go through dark seasons of life, and that no one can relate, or they're very different, or they don't fit in, or their story doesn't matter. There's this like belief that no one would want to hear what you have to say. And I've been blessed with the opportunity to train hundreds of podcasts or speakers authors coaches and business owners on how to share that story effectively from stage and it's changed their life because when you share your story it gives you permission to heal and It gives permission for the people and the audience to heal and I do believe we are all just one story away from healing this world together We just got to have the courage to share our story.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:43) Stories really do make a difference, and I completely agree. I think we were all conditioned to think that we have enough authority when we have reached a particular point in a career, but we all have a personal story that people can learn from. And it's amazing you're teaching that to so many people. Have you seen moments specifically when people have heard a story and had that moment of realization or that recovery.   Jesse Cruz (13:14) I had a very dark season in my life, and I went to college, and everybody knew I had gone through a significant challenge in my life. And my professor said, Jesse, we all know what you've just gone through. Would you like to share about what's going on? And you don't have to. And then I shared what I went through.   And then he, you know, sent us off to break. And when I was walking to the bathroom, one of my classmates came up to me, and he shared something with me of a deep, dark personal secret he had kept.   And when he said it to me, I was like, wow, he doesn't even really know me that well. And for him to share so boldly with me about what he went through, I was like, wow. And I said, thank you for sharing that with me. Who else have you told? And he said, other than my wife, you're the only person that has ever known this.   It is something I've kept to myself for decades. And then he walked away. And I was just like, wow. The lesson I believe I learned in that moment is that you never know what other people are struggling with. And they just need to see another person have the courage to say out loud what they've gone through and how they're making it out the other side, how they're getting through it, how they're dealing, how they're healing, how they're coping. And he taught me a very valuable lesson. And I think I did for him as well. I know that when he saw me share my story, it inspired him to share his with me. And so I know that we all have the capacity to share stories that transform lives.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:03) We really do. And that's totally aligned. I totally agree that you never know what someone is experiencing. So this is an important question for speakers, and it, or anyone considering sharing something: where do people draw the line? Because people sometimes want to share something, but they can't share everything. How do you encourage people? How do you encourage people to say just anything or find the bit of the story that's going to help others without feeling maybe more vulnerable than what they can handle?   Jesse Cruz (15:33) Thank you.   Yeah, and there's a fine line in that, and I remember before one of our events before when I was training some of the speakers They had a similar question. He was like Jesse like I've gone through so many traumatic things, and I just know that if I go to share that on stage, I'm gonna be an emotional wreck. I'm gonna be up there crying. Should I do that? And I said well You don't want to start trauma dumping on people and just sharing all your trauma on stage because then it becomes all about you. Now there is a way to share your story about your life that doesn't make it about you. You always want to connect your story, the pain of your story, to the audience's pain as well. And so my encouragement to people who are debating or they're hesitant to share their story is that you want to share your story from a place of your healing, not from a place of your woundedness.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:41) That's the key there. Talk from your healing, not your wounds.   So does that mean it's crucial for people to make sure they are working on themselves and trying to heal themselves as they pursue storytelling?   Jesse Cruz (16:57) Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You gotta do the inner work, the daily process of Dealing with what you've gone through, and that doesn't mean that you still don't have rough days and painful moments. That's okay But it's like how do I get up on this stage whether that's a physical stage or a virtual stage and how do I Share a story in a way that brings hope and healing to the world That means you have to be focused on the hope and healing from your life that you've dealt with that that you've cope with that that you learn from that. I tell people you gotta have a coach, hire yourself a coach. Whether someone hires me or they hire somebody else, just hire someone who can help you process some of the things that you've gone through, and that will help the person feel equipped and competent enough to share their story on stage.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:53) Get some help for sure. Get some help. I'm wondering now, I'm wondering what advice do you normally give to people who are forming a bit of a personal brand that would be tied in with their story? Because it seems like you have a bit of a personal brand around storytelling. If someone is already linked with something else, maybe a business that they made, where do they get started?   Jesse Cruz (18:19) Yeah, because I have so many speakers, authors, coaches, all these people reach out to me about storytelling. That's the question I get the most, like where do I start? Right? Like so, if someone is not in a position to hire a coach and like they're not there because not everybody can, is that you also have been blessed with the opportunity, is that if you have a phone, you have a stage. So what you do is you take out your phone, you hit the record button and you start speaking. And no one is stopping you from doing that. And then what you do is you take that message and you want to upload that to your social media channels because pretty much everybody I know has a social media account. And so whether you have 100 followers or 100,000 or 100 million followers, you have people in your audience who would be willing to listen to what it is that you have to say. But do you have the courage to put it out there? And then also do you have the determination to hire the right people when you get to that point to help you share that story anyway that changes your life, changes your family's life, and then changes your business.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:29) Start with just talking online and then hire people.   Jesse Cruz (19:36) Yes.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:36) Okay, so the old talk to the camera. That is an early step.   That's something I'm coming to terms with because it has been easier to have conversations with other people on the podcast than just talking alone to a camera. But I'm wondering, how did you get started with what you do online?   Jesse Cruz (19:57) Well, first and foremost, it's first understanding. It's completely awkward and uncomfortable to speak into the camera and I've been doing it for years and I still think it's weird and that's okay, but what I realized is that It's not about me and so it's about the message It's about the people and if I make it about how I feel about it Then it's really just about me and then I'm not able to serve the people I'm called to help and so what I've learned is when I'm coaching my clients is that they hesitate so much on sharing their story. They hesitate on going live on social media. They hesitate on uploading the video, creating the reel, making the post. There's this hesitancy. And we process that and where that actually stems from, where that comes from. And what I've seen, one of the challenges is...   They don't care enough about the people they're called to serve. They care more about the opinions of people they're not called to serve. And that is the problem. Because we fear the judgment, the opinions of family and friends. What are they gonna think? What are they gonna say? And they're not even your assignment anyway. And so what happens is we actually replace our assignment in calling in life with fear of opinions rather than the obedience to your assignment.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:16) My goodness. Okay, that is something everybody needs to remember because everybody probably worries about what people think of them. We all do. It has to be part of human nature.   Jesse Cruz (21:29) It definitely is. And once the person gets to the point where they're more focused on serving the people they're meant to serve rather than the judgment of critics, then they can finally have some peace in their life.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:43) Find your people? How did you, how did you find your people?   Jesse Cruz (21:48) Well, I've been blessed with a great family, great wife, great children, and they inspire me every single day to become the man that they need me to be, so I can set the example for them. I prayed to God for him to add the right people in my life, also to remove the wrong people from my life. I've learned that getting in rooms, going to conferences, investing into communities, hiring coaches who are in alignment with.   My mission is one of the best things that I've ever done. Because sometimes we stay in environments for a long time because they're comfortable and familiar. Then we outgrow them, and then we still stay in that environment. And every time we step back into that room, we have to shrink again to fit the mould of the people in that room. And I got tired of shrinking myself to fit the mould of these family members and friends because they just wanted me be the person they always thought I would be.   But then I started to grow and then because I was growing, I was ⁓ intimidating them. So when you change, family and friends don't look at you and say, man, you've grown. They don't know how to say that. They say, man, you've changed. That's because they don't know how to say you've grown. And so I want to get in rooms constantly where everyone in that room is better than me. Like those are the rooms I strive to get in constantly. It's like, I want everyone in this room that I'm about to step into.   be smarter than me, be better than me, be further along than me, because I want to be the one that's the furthest behind, because I have the most room to grow. I think I have an advantage when I get in rooms like that. And so I continuously seek out rooms where people are further along than me that I can learn from.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:32) It is better when we are a small fish in a larger pond instead of being the big fish, because then there is room to grow in a better, in a better space. And honestly, I think you said something that I'm normally too shy to say, which is that family and people who knew you a long time will not really understand your growth.   Jesse Cruz (24:00) For sure, they definitely won't and not only will they not understand it, they may also ignore it, they may also criticize it, they may stop talking to you over it, and they may never support you about it, but that's okay; they're not part of the assignment.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:15) That is so encouraging, knowing that happens to other people as well. That's why I like hearing from speakers and anyone who has had that experience, because it can be really isolating. I think this is something to address when people are growing, then there is potentially a bit of isolation in that growth. And then having a bit of distance from family can add on to that isolation. So that brings us back to what you said about how it's crucial to find our people.   Jesse Cruz (24:50) Hmm, yeah, most definitely.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:53) Definitely. I'm keen to ask if anyone is getting into the military now. Do you have any words of wisdom?   Jesse Cruz (25:01) Say I mean if someone's gonna get in the military now make sure you have a good plan of leveraging the benefits that they offer take advantage of every benefit there there's so many benefits that I think most military members they just don't know about and some of them are across for all branches some of them are certain branches some were federal benefits some of them are state benefits but you just want to have a good mentor when you get into the military, someone who's been in a long time and has helped other soldiers become successful. And be preparing for your life after the military from day one. Because most people are only thinking about their time in the military. They think that time is gonna be a forever thing. But guess what? It's not. And so what are you gonna do when you leave? know, so you always wanna begin with the end in mind.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:50) Begin with the end in mind. Do you think that lesson translates to other work as well?   Jesse Cruz (25:55) Yeah, yeah, because I mean everything has an expiration date, you know, so we got to be thinking about life after that expiration date. What does it look like?   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:05) Definitely. I'm curious about paid speaking. It seems to happen a lot in America, hopefully in other countries as well. What do you normally say to people who are looking to make a career out of speaking?   Jesse Cruz (26:18) If you're going to do, you know, hire a coach. One of my biggest regrets is I was trying to figure out everything on my own. It was highly frustrating. It was aggravating. was discouraging, even depressing at times, because of how challenging this industry can be. But if you hire a coach that can show you the path and the steps to take, it really is a shortcut to success. And so if you're going to be getting into the speaking space, hire yourself a good coach. Be specific on the problem that you solve, the audience that you serve, and your unique solution on how you make that happen.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:53) Okay, good to know. A lot of this is coming back to Finding Coaches. That's a lesson for all of us. Are there any three lessons for anyone who's listening, wherever they found us? Three lessons everybody should keep in mind as we wind up.   Jesse Cruz (27:01) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, number one, God is the most important. Number two, utilise the gift that you've been given to make the world a better place. And then number three, invest into yourself daily because that pays the highest dividend.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:32) First, invest in yourself.   Jesse, thanks for your time. know it's a busy week, and it has been a real privilege. I learned so much more than I expected because I didn't know what exactly how it was going to unfold. And I know that everybody who listens to this nice little half hour will learn so much about how to grow. So I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.   Jesse Cruz (28:02) It's my pleasure, thank you for having me.   Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:04) Thanks.   Okay.  

Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.    Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events.  https://www.motivatecollective.com/join       ...   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective community 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.   https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979     Unlocking Energy and Overcoming Burnout with Lisa Gornall In this episode, Lisa Gornall, a gifted energy healer and intuitive guide, shares powerful insights into how emotional energy impacts our wellbeing, success, and relationships. Whether you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or burned out, Lisa reveals actionable strategies to clear energetic blocks and realign with your purpose.   Key Topics: How Lisa's intuitive abilities help prevent burnout by reading and reprogramming energy The difference between energy work and traditional card reading or therapy Recognising and releasing stored emotional stress that manifests physically The significance of divine timing and understanding the flow of life Practical boundaries for entrepreneurs and high achievers to preserve energy The impact of generational patterns and past life influences on current behaviors The importance of investing in yourself to truly value your growth Overcoming victim mentality and self-sabotage to step into personal power Balancing work, life, and emotional health to prevent burnout and foster fulfillment Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction: Lisa's intuitive work and how it helps prevent burnout 02:12 - Understanding energy reading versus traditional healing methods 04:00 - Lisa's experiences with spirits and energy awareness from childhood 07:09 - When to seek Lisa's help: signs you're feeling stuck and needing clarity 09:23 - Differentiating between perceived and real feelings of being stuck 10:55 - The role of dreams and purpose as personal roadmaps to fulfillment 12:21 - Past life influences guiding current fears and choices 14:14 - The importance of energy clearing in medical recovery and wellbeing 16:33 - How stored emotional stress impacts physical health and manifestation 18:13 - Clearing negativity and reconnecting with the divine light 19:33 - Divine timing and trusting life's natural flow 20:23 - Balancing predetermined fate with free will and personal choices 22:44 - The significance of energetic boundaries in relationships and business 25:12 - How to recognize and shift from victim mentality to empowerment 28:15 - Breaking generational patterns to heal family wounds 33:30 - The necessity of investing in truth and worth to avoid self-sabotage 38:33 - Practical steps for entrepreneurs: creating boundaries and managing energy 44:05 - How self-care, joy, and unplugging prevent burnout and boost productivity 49:14 - Returning to human connection and emotional awareness in busy lives 50:43 - Overcoming fear, limiting beliefs, and recognizing subconscious patterns 55:39 - The power of objective perspective: choosing your environment and company 58:12 - The impact of investing in paid support and community over free groups 60:12 - Essential tips for new business owners to safeguard energetic health 63:01 - Final thoughts: Letting go, trusting divine timing, and living intentionallyResources & Links:   This episode offers a clear start to recognise energetic blocks, harness divine timing, and create the boundaries necessary for a balanced, fulfilled life. Whether you're looking to improve personal wellbeing or elevate your business, Lisa's insights provide a powerful roadmap to overcoming obstacles from the inside out.       Transcript   Lisa Gornall (00:00) Sounds good.   Melanie Wilson (00:02) Lisa, you work with people to prevent burnout. How do you explain to everybody what exactly you do?   Lisa Gornall (00:12) So I'm a medium.   So I was born with the ability to become one with people's energy. So I can literally feel what you're holding in your body, why, sometimes, how long it's been there. And then I'm intuitively able to help you let that go. I can tell if it moves somewhere else in your body, if it's not really leaving. And then we reprogram it with positive energy. So that's one of the major things that I do with everybody that I work with.   Melanie Wilson (00:39) Okay, how did you get started with that?   Lisa Gornall (00:43) I was blessed in that I was born with that ability. I had no idea that what I did was different. I thought everybody could read energy the way that I do. had no, I mean, we all have intuitive abilities. I just didn't realize that I was like really intense with what I can do.   Melanie Wilson (00:47) Okay.   Okay, so how did you realise you can do this?   Lisa Gornall (01:06) So as I got older, and I started just talking to other types of healers, like Mayan shamans, I did Reiki, became a Reiki master. And as I put myself in those areas, I would realise, like, you know, like the Mayan shaman would be like, you have this here. And I'm like, yes, and I have this, and I have this, and this is from this life and from this experience. And his eyes just got really big. And I was like, okay, now everybody can do this. And like when I got the Reiki master training,   Like I could see the attunements, whether or not they would like take place or not. And the person that was performing them can't even see that.   Melanie Wilson (01:40) What...   What does that mean?   Lisa Gornall (01:45) So Reiki is like an ancient Japanese hands-on healing technique. And there's three different trainings that you go through to become a Reiki master. And what the master does is they stand in front of you and they do something three times, like in certain chakras and they say certain things to open up the chakras to give you the attunement. Well, I can see when the attunements weren't taking. I can see where there was a block and why there was a block, what needed to be let go so that way they could receive the attunement in that space.   So that's just a couple of examples. And then when I was like nine, we had a paranormal investigator come to our house because we had a spirit in the house. And as soon as she like was there, she was putting her into the white light, like I could see the spirit. And I was like, like all of these times that like, you know, I had seen the spirit in the house or in my room or like messing with the cat or whatever. But because nobody had ever said to me, Hey Lisa, this is a spirit. My mind didn't know to categorise it as a spirit, or this is what this is. And even when my uncle had died, and my grandma couldn't connect with him, I was like, Uncle David's right outside. He's on the porch. All you have to do is just see him there. My mom and my grandma didn't say, Lisa, you're seeing spirits. It was just kind of like, I just saw these things, and I said things, and nobody said, this is what you're doing.   Melanie Wilson (03:06) Okay, so you could just say things. I'm wondering, how do you deal with the sceptics?   Lisa Gornall (03:17) Well, the sceptics aren't my people. I'm not here to try and prove it to them. I've been doing this my whole entire life. I'm 49 years old. I'm not here to prove to anybody. You either get what I do and I can help you, or you don't get it, and that's totally okay. But I'm not gonna try to like get you to see or believe me. You know, and the funny thing is like I was actually very analytical. My grandpa was an education for NASA. My grandma was a nurse. Like.   You know, like I was taught to look at things very analytically, which is why I think it took me so long to realise that I had these abilities, because like I didn't, you know, understand how to process them, because, you know, there's not books when I was growing up that explained any of this to me.   Melanie Wilson (04:00) Okay, that's something. So you weren't growing up surrounded by alternative spiritual thoughts. You weren't growing up in an intensely religious space, I assume.   Lisa Gornall (04:14) Well, we were very Catholic. So we were very like we went to church, we did all the things that were required of us. And my mom was open, and my dad is very intuitive. But like, it wasn't like, you know, my mom would like take my sisters and I into the bedroom and like she would pull out like cards and she would, you know, you had to say if it was red or black, where the card was, why couldn't do that? There's no energy on that for me to read. Like, I don't read inanimate objects. If you lose something and you call me, like, I don't know where it's at. That's not my gift, right? That's not how I work. Like, I have to read the energy. So my sister's kind of burned out on like that kind of stuff at a young age, but there was, there wasn't a lot of alternative things happening besides my mom bringing in that paranormal investigator to clear the house. There wasn't a lot, you know, happening.   Melanie Wilson (05:08) Right, right. So there's a big difference between what you do and how people read cards. And there are trends for that now. There are Tarot, there are other cards. So this is totally different. With what you do, is it a bit more intuitive? Are you going with a feeling?   Lisa Gornall (05:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   I just know. So I'm just becoming one with the energy, and I feel it in my body as if it's mine. So wherever people have their blocks, like I can feel it. I'm not going to go through your blocks with you on your podcast, and we're not going to do that for you. like, but I can, like that's like, that's what I do. And that's what I do in my calls because what happens is, is we store things in our body to deal with later. When's later? Right?   Melanie Wilson (05:45) Okay, so are you feeling it?   Lisa Gornall (06:00) We don't know when that later moment is going to be. So it's really important that we start to recognize like, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I'm mad, this person hurt me, right? And we just keep storing all this energy and we don't deal with it. And then what happens is that we implode as some poor, innocent bystander. And then we have to fix it.   Melanie Wilson (06:20) I want to apologize, it flipped to my phone microphone just when I was...   Lisa Gornall (06:29) ⁓   Melanie Wilson (06:36) I... what? I swear to you this has never happened. One second. Okay, there it goes. It's back to the right microphone. I was just making sure it doesn't have the echo. I'll edit this part out, don't worry, but I was making sure it doesn't have the echo, and then it switched.   Lisa Gornall (06:39) you   That's okay. I just try to keep going in case it could still get me, and I was like, whenever you were doing was okay.   Melanie Wilson (06:53) No, it's cool.   Yeah, yeah. We'll just use your stuff. No, that's going with the flow so much. So I'm wondering in what situations do people need to seek someone like you for help?   Lisa Gornall (07:09) Thanks. Yeah. People usually come to me when they feel stuck. They're not happy with their life. There's something big going on and they don't know how to move forward. And they've usually tried therapy. Most of my clients come to me and they've had some experience with therapy and it didn't quite get, I also have a lot of people that have worked with a lot of different types of healers that can do pieces or parts of what I do, but they couldn't do all of it. And so people have done some type of self work before they come to me. If they haven't, it's very difficult, and I'm probably not the person to start with because they're like, I don't know how I feel. You need to at least know how you feel when you come to work with me. Yeah, it happens.   Melanie Wilson (07:52) They need a starting point. And I'm guessing there would be some cases where people are in extreme situations, and they need more help than getting unstuck.   Lisa Gornall (07:54) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I mean, it just depends. Like a lot of people feel overwhelmed or burnt out. A lot of women come to me when they're not happy in their relationships anymore, because a lot of times women settle into relationships, you know, at a young age, or there's nobody else around, or they've been with their partner for so much time, and they're like, we just have to get married. And then, you know, as we get older, as we hit those hormone changes, and we don't have the patience for all that anymore.   A lot of women come to me, and you're not going to see this on my website anywhere because the husbands would not approve, right? But to leave their relationships when they no longer were.   Melanie Wilson (08:41) It's interesting, and I need to be careful about what I say with that sort of thing, but do you find that sometimes people have a gut instinct or a feeling?   Lisa Gornall (08:51) That's it.   Melanie Wilson (08:55) And you can't fully articulate it, but sometimes you just know something.   Lisa Gornall (09:02) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, that's my life.   Melanie Wilson (09:07) For those listening, we're sitting and just nodding for a while. Nodding. I love it when I have a guest who's just on the wavelength. Totally. Just nodding. So, okay. So that happens quite a bit. um, and, and so the stuck feeling, is there any difference between people thinking they are stuck and really being stuck?   Lisa Gornall (09:23) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (09:37) Or if we think we're stuck, is that simply what's going on? Is there sometimes more to it?   Lisa Gornall (09:46) Usually, if we're feeling stuck, it's because we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing, and most people are disconnected from their dreams, right? Your dreams are your personal roadmap to happiness, and how many of you out there have your dreams sitting back there on a back burner of some day? Like you're not taking any steps. You're not doing anything, and you're like, you know, I'll get to it eventually. When we're not doing what we're here to do, we feel stuck.   We get angry, and we throw ourselves into work, thinking like, well, I'm working, I'm busy with work. But then it doesn't matter, like how many promotions you get or raises or whatever, because it's not enough. We are here to follow our dreams.   Melanie Wilson (10:29) Yes. Doing something doesn't mean you're doing your calling. And the way I translate that sort of thing is I wanted to differentiate the great dreams that we can have, where, for example, I grew up hearing that some dreams are far-fetched, and there was a time in history when, f you remember the Idol shows were coming out and so it was one person in an entire nation who was winning the dream. So it was a scarcity thing that happens. But I think what you're describing is what some people call alignment now, or it's that to translate it into the thought that, or the framework that I grew up with, it's that we're all built a particular way.   Lisa Gornall (11:03) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (11:25) And in a way that can serve a purpose. So do you see people sometimes simply not serving their purpose? Like maybe they have a skill or a strength in a particular thing, or they could do great work and great contributions with a particular group, a particular place, and they're literally not going there.   Lisa Gornall (11:35) Mm-hmm.   That happens all the time because sometimes people, you we grew up in our parents' family, those closest to us tell us that's not an option, you can't do that. Sometimes we're afraid of doing it. Sometimes we're guided by past lives. The reason I went to nursing school was because I was being guided by a past life. In sixth grade, when they're like, what do you want to do when you grow up? I wrote a whole paper about being a nurse. I saw myself at this red cross truck. I saw my husband was over in Europe somewhere, fighting the war.   I wanted to find him. I left our kids behind, and I went there. I was 12. I'm not married. I don't know this person. And yet that was guiding my future. And so many times, we're guided by past life experiences. Whether we're open to it or not, it doesn't matter. We have irrational fears. have, you know, we meet certain people? We're like, absolutely not. Right. There's all this past life stuff that's guiding us that we're not even aware about, but past lives also guide our dreams or our failure to follow them because we have fears.   Melanie Wilson (12:55) Did you end up working as a nurse as well?   Lisa Gornall (12:57) No, I did not. I had two classes left to graduate, and I changed my major, and my gosh, my grandfather that worked for NASA, was livid. He's like, being a nurse is good enough for your grandmother, it's not good enough for you. But I was sitting, sitting on my patient's bed, which is not allowed. I was on the cardiac unit, and I was giving him 20 pills, and he had a tendency to hide the pills. And so I had to, like, really make sure he was taking all of his medications.   And I just felt like in his chest, there was something going on with the family and we needed to address it. And so I asked him how things were going with his family. And he said that he was estranged from his daughter. And so we kind of talked about that. And I was like, well, you're the dad. You've started this pathway with them. They followed your lead. Like, you can go back and you can fix this. And he took all of his pills, and he was so happy, and he was smiling. And I hated every single day that I went to clinical, but I'm so glad that I went because I have that knowledge and a lot of my clients have injuries and they get sick or whatever. So I'm able to read that as well. I'm definitely not a medical medium. I wouldn't claim to be that in any way, but I have an understanding when those things happen. And last year, my dad had a double bypass surgery, and he almost died twice. And being in the hospital for 20 days with all the nurses doing the energy work that I do, I was so grateful that I had the knowledge.   Melanie Wilson (14:14) Yes   Lisa Gornall (14:22) And I could not believe that the medical system was not doing any energy work at all because that's what really helped my father. He was in a coma for eight days.   Melanie Wilson (14:31) That's a lot. I have so much sympathy for that. And I must admit, I'm still wrapping my head around the energy part. I've been hearing perspectives that are scientific, all of that. But part of what you said is the relational side, that if someone is perhaps near the end of life or in a situation, whatever it might be, part of it could be they have a physical issue that needs a pile of pills. Sorry, my eyes popped when you said 20 pills. I don't know how normal that is to take that many, but.   Lisa Gornall (15:04) Depends on how many conditions you've got.   Melanie Wilson (15:14) Fair enough, but aside from the physical conditions, people can have these underlying issues, like relational concerns and other things. And we all know that stress and feelings and so on can affect us physically, right?   Lisa Gornall (15:34) Mm-hmm. Well, they manifest, right? Like I was saying earlier, we store that stuff in our body in specific areas to deal with later. Common places that people store their stresses in their chest, they feel like there's a weight pressing on them in their stomach, right? Like their stomach feels tight, maybe their hips feel like they can't move, or they feel like they can't speak. Those are the four common places people store energy, and they just keep putting it there until they explode over something that had nothing to do with something just to release some of that stress, some of that pressure, right? And then we got to make amends and fix things. But we only release a little bit. Like we are not taught to let go.   We're taught to deal with it later. You're busy. Focus on the task at hand. You can deal with it later. It's kind of like the dreams, right? The dreams are on the back burner, and all the stress and the worry and all that stuff that we carry. We just keep carrying it. We are not taught to clear it and let it go. And it manifests in other things.   Melanie Wilson (16:33) Absolutely. And the dreams you talked about, people basically, well, being in situations that could lead to them either continuing their lives or not. And it really reminds us that if we have something in life that we need to do, if we have something that is our calling or our purpose or a problem to solve, then you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow and, and it might make more sense to address things or attempt things today. Do you think so?   Lisa Gornall (17:14) I agree with that completely. Anytime that we're carrying and holding on to anything from the past, it keeps us stuck. It's like a weight. There's this image I like to share on social media where there's this blue butterfly with a string, and it's carrying like this rock. Imagine that. But that's what we do to ourselves all day long. Somebody said something, and we're hurt. Somebody does something, and we're hurt. We're mad about something that happened to us in our childhood. We're mad at stuff that we carried in from past lives.   What are we doing to clear that energy? And it taints us. know, like one of the things I like to teach people to do is to bring in white light, which is God, love, universe, source, whatever you want to call it. Right. And you've heard that we're born into the light. We cross over into the light. Like we are the light. But as we put all this negativity and stress and worries in our body, it blocks that light from channelling. It's kind of like a river getting clogged up with debris. Right.   This is energy, and it turns into matter, physical illness, physical disease, what have you. So you want to clear your energy out so that way you're in a good space, and you're not easily triggered. You feel better, and you attract in more abundance.   Melanie Wilson (18:29) Over here, I have seen a slight trend. I don't know statistically how common this is, but I would wonder how many elderly people pass away almost precisely after they turn 100 or after a particular birthday. So the difference in Australia, maybe some other countries do it as well. Clearly not in America, but when someone turns a hundred, they can get a letter from what was the queen. Maybe the king does it. I don't know. They have their own stuff going on right now, but that was the tradition for a long time. If people were that way inclined, and it's amazing, realising that some people really did somehow just keep going and then pass away after that. And sometimes.   Lisa Gornall (19:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (19:24) Also, things just line up neatly in our circumstances, where something pops up at a moment that it just feels too good to be coincidental. I'm wondering, have you seen timing just looking a little bit divine sometimes?   Lisa Gornall (19:33) Mm-hmm.   Timing is always divine. Even if we don't think it's divine, right? Like, even if we think something happens that's bad, that is happening to course correct us to get us back on our best path. Divine timing is happening all the time. It's just, are you aware of it or are you not?   Melanie Wilson (20:00) Right, it's always divine timing.   Lisa Gornall (20:03) It's always happening.   Melanie Wilson (20:05) I love these sorts of questions. I'm so keen to ask. I mean, everybody will have a different take on this, but how do you balance the, what do you call it? Predetermined fate and steering our own destinies.   Lisa Gornall (20:23) I like to describe it as you have your pathway, right? Like you come into this life and you say, these are the things that I want to do. These are the things that are going to happen. These are the challenges I'm going to take on. Right. And then you hit that challenge, and you're like, actually, I changed my mind. Never mind. I don't want to do that anymore. I'm to go over here. But you keep getting pulled back to whatever that thing is because there are certain things that you are supposed to do. And then the things that aren't set in stone.   You know, maybe you said, well, maybe I'll aim for this, but if I don't do it, it's okay, because then I can go this way. Right? So it's very fluid. Like, there are some things that are going to happen that you don't have control over, but you have control at all times over how you think, how you feel, your energy, your environment, what you're eating. There's so many other things that we do have control over. So when we're having experiences, we can decide, is this a good experience or is this a bad experience?   And how we decide to think about whatever's happening greatly impacts how easy or how hard it is to get through the thing. And if something keeps happening on repeat, like you're the common denominator, it doesn't matter where you go, but this thing keeps happening. You have some inner work to do. Like that is your red flag. That is your sign. Like, Hey, pay attention here. You're not getting this. If you keep doing the same thing, you have something to heal, and so that's how you can know that that's one of those predetermined things.   Melanie Wilson (21:57) Sometimes the world is telling us something by giving us the same lesson until it's Groundhog Day, right?   Lisa Gornall (22:03) Right? It is. It really is. And so if you're just like, why me? You're a victim. You've handed over your power. It's going to be a really hard struggle. Right? So you always want to be like, okay, this is happening. How do I move forward through this? Is there anything that I need to let go of? Is there anything that I need to do in a new way or differently? Is there somebody that I should talk to about this so I can have a different perspective? Because we get so stuck in our heads and we build things up and we make them really, really hard. And then it just all adds to that momentum of like, I can't move forward, I'm stuck, and I can't get past this. But we can.   Melanie Wilson (22:44) We can.   Lisa Gornall (22:45) We can.   Melanie Wilson (22:47) We can. Yes, we have to just get ourselves unstuck. We really do. I was going to say that if you did want to talk about my blocks as an example, then you'd be welcome to, but I don't know what that would involve. Or if you wanted to talk about your own blocks. Okay.   Lisa Gornall (23:06) Yeah, yeah, we can talk about mind blocks. I do a lot of training on mind blocks. So there's a lot of different things that, you know, we do to ourselves to hold us back from what it is that we say that we want, right? One of those things is self-sabotage, right? And self-sabotage is always something that we do to ourselves. You can ask for abundance all day, every day. You can have the gratitude journals. You can do all the things, but if you have decided that you can't have whatever it is that you say you want to have, you're self-sabotaging, you won't have it. Like I always do this block in front of my chest, like you're blocking yourself from having it. The other thing is the victim. And I always do a V, and I go down into the ground. Victim is when we believe other people are doing stuff to us, right? It's like you're pointing a finger, but you've got three fingers coming back at yourself, right? We're not victims. If we are like this, let's say, like if somebody is raped or somebody takes advantage of them or something like that, when you go into that victim's place, we hand over even more power, right? Because then we go into this deep fear of this could happen again, I lost my power, I lost control, what have you. So whenever something happens like that, we wanna make sure that energetically we are doing the inner work, healing, forgiving.   Clearing and not continuing to carry that energy because the moment that we think we've lost our power it impacts every single thing in your life. It's very hard to get out of right They'll be like pull yourself up by the bootstraps like that's an American saying, pull your pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right? When you're in victim, it's so dark, and it's so hard, and people start isolating from you. It becomes like this whole thing, so we don't want to go in that space and then…   Melanie Wilson (24:57) Is that because people can sense it?   Lisa Gornall (25:00) We can, we read energy. Even if you don't understand that you read energy, we're all reading energy. You know when you meet somebody if you like them or if you don't, or if you're indifferent, right? The worst relationships are when you meet somebody, and you're indifferent. Because those, as you get older, like especially, you know, marriages and stuff, those ones are just like, the grass is greener somewhere else, the grass is green over there, like I'm indifferent, right?   The indifferent people they're not going to be your best friends. They're not going to be the people you want to hang out with all the time. And you definitely don't want to marry them. The people that you meet, and you're like, I don't like you, you probably have some past life stuff with them that needs to be healed. We can recognise the energy in different forms in different lives. And then if you meet somebody and you love them, then you have some connection with them that you're bringing forward. We are like, hey, we're finding each other again. Hey, we're connected. Like, hey, let's create a relationship. And those work together really well.   Melanie Wilson (26:00) Have a juicy, weird question. Not juicy, but a bit of a controversial question.   So if someone is, for example, hypothetically, every so often having a feeling of wanting to just get away or flee, and they know that past generations had a mentality of blend in and essentially hide yourself in plain sight, and you'll be safe if you do that. Have you seen people having some sort of mentality of either blending in in plain sight or just running away, not literally running away, but just avoiding things in some way, that sort of thing, various forms of avoiding. Have you seen that in some sort of generational way in the past?   Lisa Gornall (26:57) absolutely. And I've seen people who are adopted meet their biological family members or, you know, a couple of them or whatever. And the patterns are astounding. So even though they're raised in a different environment with totally different people, they have a few of their things, but they're not as strong as the genetic patterns that come through our DNA.   Melanie Wilson (27:20) Yes, I was thinking that earlier that, you know, we talk about these generational things and it can sound very woo-woo, but part of it is DNA and some schools of thought these days have said that traumas, experiences, what not, somehow influence our DNA and they seep through to the next generations. Have you seen ways that people can break the pattern? Is it about these blocks or is   Lisa Gornall (27:21) There's a lot happening.   Mm-hmm.   Okay.   Melanie Wilson (27:50) There are more to it.   Lisa Gornall (27:50) It is.   It is. Well, they call them like generational family healers, right? So like I can tell you about like, you know, a lot of the relationship stuff that I healed in my family. Like when I look at my grandmothers on both sides and the relationships that they had, they weren't, you know, they weren't amazing relationships. There's a little bit of abuse in there, right? And then   you know, watching my parents and, and, know, just seeing all those different levels. When I first started dating, I started dating those similar types of men and I would see it and I'd be like, Nope, Nope, Nope. Right. And then I didn't do a lot of healing work with my dad until after my girls were born and my girls are 21 months apart. So when they were born, I did all this work and I came back to my dad and I was like, Oh my gosh, dad, I'm so sorry for blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever. And then when my girl started dating,   They were dating these types of men too. And I was like, but I didn't marry that. How is this happening? Like, this is not what you see in your family. How are you dating men that can be emotionally manipulative or abusive to you? Because I did the work after they   So it got passed down to them. So I'm always like, no, I'm like, who are you dating? What's happening? I see this. No, right? So it's probably not super fun for me to be your mom, but my clients love it. Cause I'm like, no, no, no. But absolutely we have these patterns that we just, we, we, we not only are we repeating what we see, but there's something energetically going on that we just keep carrying through the line until it keeps getting healed.   Melanie Wilson (29:14) You   Lisa Gornall (29:33) and then it shifts things for the next generation.   Melanie Wilson (29:37) It's so fascinating when we can see that people, be it ourselves or anyone else, people can truly end up with daddy issues or mommy issues.   Lisa Gornall (29:48) A lot of people have them. Most people, I would say, have them, to be honest. You know, because we're seeking approval. We want that love that we didn't get from them. And then we keep dating people who have those things, trying to prove it to them, because it's going to be different. But is this a person?   Melanie Wilson (29:53) Most.   Okay, that's   leading on a path because you're talking about approval and this show aims to help people who are trying to look after themselves as they do great work. And frankly, how many people either get into workaholic habits or extra aspirational. And I wonder what percentage of entrepreneurs of high achievers   Lisa Gornall (30:25) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (30:35) have some sort of family issue, be it conformity, trauma, something. I just feel like it's no...   Lisa Gornall (30:44) I haven't met somebody who hasn't. And I've   been doing this work since 2002. I have not worked with somebody who has not had something that they're trying to prove. That's what drives them. That's why they're so successful. Because they're proving it in an area where they can see the checks. Like, okay, I hit these metrics, I'm gonna get this position. I hit these metrics, I'm gonna get this raise. Like, I'm climbing the ladder to get this approval, but they're only doing it in work.   And then, and then, and then they don't have the energy to put into the relationships because all their energy is being spent at work. Right? It's this vicious cycle. It's a vicious cycle.   Melanie Wilson (31:15) my gosh.   That's why we do it, it's not-   And it's not only to tick the boxes in the actual work. have you seen some people subconsciously at least delving into or pouring themselves into work so much that of course they're not going to have the energy or the time frankly to then. Pursue anything else. I mean, it's almost the stereotype, but maybe that is what we're doing. Sometimes we are.   deliberately or not consciously withdrawing ourselves from relational possibilities by just absorbing ourselves into work.   Lisa Gornall (32:12) Mm-hmm. And then it keeps us safe in the relationships too, because even if we're in one and it's not working or we're not happy in it or whatever, you don't have the bandwidth to deal with it because we're so immersed in our work. And if work's not enough, then we're over giving to the community or we're over giving to like whatever. It's like we just are on autopilot to just auto over whatever.   I'm always writing articles and videos out over giving over working over caring over whatever because   Melanie Wilson (32:46) Did you   see my bio? This is just spooky.   Lisa Gornall (32:50) Well,   I did, but that was last week. But this is what I do. And what I help people do is I help them get to the root of why they're over giving. Why are you overworking? What are you trying to prove? Because here's the crazy thing. We can't prove something to anybody else. When we come to people like trying to prove something, it gives off an icky vibe and they're like, ⁓ I don't want to be there.   Right? The moment we start trying to prove something, we've lost it. When I was, you know, first starting my business and I was trying to prove I had my intuitive abilities, people took advantage of that. Cause it's, it's like, yeah, because they're like, you're trying to prove something. Let me get from you when I can. Versus when you stand in your power.   Melanie Wilson (33:30) Really?   What did people...   What did they try to get? What happened?   Lisa Gornall (33:40) When they were just trying to like ask me   questions outside of session time or like just trying to get more like back in the day when I first started, I had like free 30 minute session or whatever. They would just try to keep pushing and like, I just had to create boundaries around all of that just be like, this is what I'm giving and no more. Because the moment you start trying to be like, Oh, let me help you. Like one time I had a kid who had an alien, I don't even know, like white light, white light, white light aliens. Okay. And I spent like   an extra hour on the phone with this kid back in the day because he was so in the trenches. Like there was so much clearing and like so much stuff and it was insane. And I didn't get paid a penny for it. Cause I was just trying to prove that I can see it and help. like, you know, I had, you know, all the counter to what he was doing, like everything he said, I was like, no, this is the truth. And you're like, I'm like, I hear you energetically, this is the truth, right?   Melanie Wilson (34:26) ⁓   Lisa Gornall (34:36) And he got to a good place and he was really grateful. Even at the end, he's like, do you want me to pay you? And I'm like, I don't even know what to do at this point. Like, let's just go. think we're done. Right. But when I first started working, I think too, because of like the analytical background that I came from, and I think also just, you know, me proving my worth through overworking and all the different jobs that I've had as well. You know, it just was something that just came about that I was trying to heal.   Melanie Wilson (35:04) So did you have an overworking tendency? said that you were proving something. It sounds like you were helping someone even more to prove something.   Lisa Gornall (35:10) Yes.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Yeah, that I was good at my work, right? That I could do this, that this was what I was here for, right? Like just going over and beyond and above. And a lot of people do that by, you know, working extra hours every day, working on the weekends, you know, buying people presents or like, you know, going above and beyond relationships, just trying to make up for it in all these ways because like they're not present. Like there's all this   over giving and over doing that we're doing in society and that's not what we're here for.   Melanie Wilson (35:54) my goodness. The relational version of that, think people can relate to this as well. And that's showing me that we do all need to set standards for ourselves. think the vague, yes, boundaries. I didn't even understand that word for so long, but I think I can vaguely tell you, and it wouldn't really say a lot, that   Lisa Gornall (36:09) and boundaries. ⁓   Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (36:23) At least once in my adulthood, probably more, there would be someone who says, are you free? Are you around right now? Instantly. And I seriously just get up and go right away. I drop a hat and, and I think.   Lisa Gornall (36:36) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. You gotta ask yourself,   what is the cost to me? What is the cost? Women are known for overgiving and overdoing. There are men that do it too, but predominantly women have been taught to put their needs last, to make sure everybody else is taken care of. You're falling apart, it's okay. You're sick.   and you feel like you're dying, get all these things done. Like, you know what I mean? It's a whole different perspective on the genders, but there are men, it's just, there's a lot more women.   Melanie Wilson (37:18) Let's explore that for a second because I, I feel like I don't relate to the cultural norm because I can't wrap my head around this weird mentality where we are meant to have the version of a woman's hero's journey where we became completely wrecked and then rescued ourselves. But look, I appreciate the people who created great success amid   their burnout and exhaustion. I appreciate that. My version of it is at one point in life, I was rushing around for things that weren't going to create abundance. I slipped and got what's called a tibial plateau fracture. So you'd know what that is because you studied nursing. I Googled it and it's 1 % of fractures or it was at the time. So, you know, I have that story, but some people have these great stories.   Lisa Gornall (38:02) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (38:15) that become a hero's journey and it's great that they recovered from their burnout, but I'm worried. Do we have to put ourselves through that? Surely there could be a version of this where we find our purpose without getting wrecked in the process.   Lisa Gornall (38:33) Yeah, I mean, I think there's just so much programming and training and our lack of self love and self worth and self enoughness and just proving to everybody that we can do all these things at what cost. And I'm serious, I'm always saying that to my clients and to myself, like, what's the cost? Because I've done it all. I've hit burnout twice, you know, once when I was 18 and then 10 years ago, for what?   Right? First lesson wasn't enough. And so it's about realizing that I'm not meant to do everything. I'm only here to do the things that I'm here to do. And I need to do things in a balanced way because we need to look at our energy levels, like our cell phone batteries. When our cell phone battery is at 0 % and it doesn't charge that night and you try to make a phone call the next day, it's not happening. But as humans,   We are at 0 % and we're like, we're going to keep going and we start going into negatives and that's how we get sick. That's how we get injured as well. And so we've got to stop this whole mentality of I can do it all. Of course we can do it all. The question is, what do I want to do? What am I here to do? What are the things that really matter to me? We need to stop getting distracted with all the shiny objects and all the distractions. When is my path?   Melanie Wilson (40:02) The battery that is spot on. wanted to reference what Brene Brown says because she talks about marriages or partnerships and how she will say with her husband, have 20 % left. have 40 % at the end of the day. And then the other person just says, okay, this is what percentage I have energetically.   I really worry that we don't have the space or opportunity often to tell the world, our community, or whoever we are supporting. I have 10 % today. And especially as women, I think it's going to be controversial to say most of us know the working world wasn't set up for women to have more energy one week than the other. And I remember times in my career when I felt kind of shamed.   Lisa Gornall (40:53) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (40:58) for saying, I just don't have the energy today. You look like you're just not up to it. You're not built for the work, even though we all know how we are built.   Lisa Gornall (41:04) Right?   Mm hmm. 100%.   100%. And that's why we push ourselves to burnout. That's the only path that there is. And the crazy thing is that people who are in the hustle will defend the hustle. They might be in the hospital recovering from some procedure and they are working and they are bragging online about how I'm still going.   And then they keep getting things. And this is what I'm talking about when like you keep hitting an obstacle and you're like, I'm not getting the lesson. I'm not getting the message. Like things are not clicking. We're not meant to overdo. When we get stuck in the hustle, we have totally lost touch with our dreams. We don't know what brings us joy. We don't do any self care. And people will be like, I got my hair done or I got my nails done. Were you on your phone the whole time checking emails?   Yeah, then that doesn't count. You know what I mean? But we are so conditioned to just keep going and give it your all and don't tell anybody that you can't do it all. Which goes back to what I said earlier. We don't have to do it all. What are we here to do? What is our purpose?   Melanie Wilson (42:23) Yes, we don't have to do it all. And even if we are focusing on our main purpose, we need to be realistic about our energy, but also to tie in with what you do. Do you see that if people need to be realistic about their, I don't know if you put it emotional, maybe you put it as emotional energy, something like that, where maybe people are having a phase of grief or   Lisa Gornall (42:32) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (42:51) they're overloaded with the personal responsibilities and still trying to get through the normal work. Have you seen that fluctuating for people as well?   Lisa Gornall (43:04) Yeah, yeah. And that's hard too, because then you're more triggered. You're constantly triggered when you're in that space because this is happening. ⁓ It just keeps feeling that emotional charge that you have. Right? So I always tell people if you are triggered, you got to do some letting go. Because the goal is, that no matter where you're at and whatever's happening around you, you can be calm, balanced.   rounded, aligned, and be collected. And if you're not in that space, you're going to say or do things that you have to fix later.   Melanie Wilson (43:44) Right, I'm wondering if you can do vague examples or any sort of illustration for how people can really thrive in their work and create value at scale or in some sort of great way when they are overcoming these things.   Lisa Gornall (44:05) I think the number one thing with work especially is that we have to create boundaries around our time at work. And if you're an entrepreneur, you have to have an off time. You have to. Even if you work for a corporation or a company, we have to have an off time. It is good for the people we work with. It is good for ourselves. We are not meant to work all the time. When we work all the time, we're not going to have fresh ideas. We're not going to be happy, pleasant people.   we're not going to be in a good space. So you have to have an end time and you also have to have a start time. Like I tell people when you wake up in the morning, the first thing you should always do is bring in the white light. God love universe source, whatever you want to call it. Cause who knows where you went while you were sleeping. Who knows what dreams you had, what energy you're starting your day with. Right? So you want to bring in the white light and just say, I am peace. I am calm. I am balanced. Something like that. I am statements are always three words. Then   start to get ready for the day. Have your hot cup of something, something, eat your breakfast, wash your face, get dressed. You're not sitting at your computer checking your emails before you do that. Your day is done, right? You've got to start your day by recharging and giving yourself back more energy. Cause what if you didn't sleep good, especially if you're a woman with your hormone shifting or whatever, you've got to do something to balance your energy and give you a little bit more charge to your battery when you first wake up in the morning.   Now once you're ready for the day, okay, go ahead. Now you're working. And then you have to take a lunch, like a lunch where you can recharge and you have to have an end to the workday. We just bought like a fixture for a year and a half ago with some land. So we're outside, we might be doing things. I might be exercising. I might be in the pool if it's warm, depending on what it is. I might just go sit outside in the chair, you know?   When you have to do something to signify, this is the end of my work day. And if you have a brilliant idea or something that you think about for work, you have to write it down on a piece of paper, not your phone. Because if you go on your phone, you're down a slippery slope, right?   Melanie Wilson (46:14) Yes, it will   lead you to then get tempted to look at everything else.   Lisa Gornall (46:18) And then you've got to make time and schedule in things that bring you joy. Most people when I ask them what brings them joy, they don't know. They have this blank look because we're not focused on what makes us happy. We're not. And it's very normal for me to ask somebody and they just sit there and they just give me a blank look for 30 seconds. And I'm like, what are the things that you did when you were a child that brought you joy? Do you want to do any of those things as an adult?   and schedule them on your calendar so that way you do them because the only way you're going to stop overworking is if you have something else to look forward to because you've got to break that pattern.   Melanie Wilson (47:10) the mic again. This is never happened. Oh, it's so weird. I mean, I've been holding the mic for just a few of these episodes, but yeah, it keeps just disconnecting through this one. So I was saying that, I was saying that what we need to do by the sound is to bring into the day the things that make us human.   Lisa Gornall (47:13) There you go. That's so crazy.   Mm-hmm. We need to stop focusing so much on work and productivity because that's going to burn us out. And there is no badge of honor. There's no reward. There's no, woo, you can't burn out. It's months, weeks, when it has you, whenever your situation is of you recovering and doing all the inner work to not get back to that place again.   So if you've not experienced burnout in your life, I highly don't recommend it. I'm assuming you don't recommend it. Like you've got to make time to do the things you want to do now. Right? Like you hear all the time about like people wait to travel until they're older and then it's harder for them to get around. know, whatever it is that you want to do, there is no magical someday. It's now. You have to do those things now to give you the quality of life that makes you excited to wake up in the morning and work.   Well, a lot of people love their work. That's not what you're just here for, right? That's a piece of it. It's not all of it.   Melanie Wilson (48:40) Yes, we are more than the work. So looking at the energy that people have and that blocked feeling, do you find that sometimes people can feel unstuck and less blocked in terms of feeling light? For me, I think that sometimes that stuck feeling can literally be like perhaps not moving freely or   just pretty much like a numb feeling. I don't know if that's what it is for everybody, but for something like that, do you find that people are freed up from whatever it might feel like when they are bringing those human experiences back into their day and week?   Lisa Gornall (49:14) Mm-hmm.   100%. 100%. The reason   that we feel stuck is because we're not doing the things that we want to do. We're doing the things that we think we have to do in the ways that we have to do them. But really, even when people have like a traditional nine to five job or whatever it is, who is saying that you have to work more? The more you work, the more work people are going to give you because they think that you want it.   They're like, well, this person will get it done. They don't think about you on the outside world or how you feel or what are you giving up to do all these things? They're just like, they're doing all this work. I'll keep giving them more. And if we have to prove I am worthy, I am enough, I am love, I'm going to do all these things, we are so lost because we're not here to only work. Nobody is here to only work.   Melanie Wilson (50:23) What is the proving? I'm curious. Have you seen people either trying to rescue everybody or trying to be rescued? I think the damsel in distress mentality might happen sometimes and also the opposite, like people wanting to be the hero. Have you seen that a lot?   Lisa Gornall (50:43) Yes, because that gives validation to those feelings. Like I am worthy. Look at what I just did today or I am enough. I helped them with this or whenever it may be, right? So we want to make sure that we're always coming back to why am I doing this? What is the cost to me? Do I need to do this? And usually the answer is no. And even as a medium, you know,   My mom used to call me nosy when I was little in the grocery store because I'd be in the cart and I would be in everybody's business. Right? I'm just in the grocery store, just reading all the energy. And I would ask questions to people that I should not be asking. I would say things that I shouldn't be saying because I didn't know any better. Right? I was just a young child in the grocery cart. I'm like five or six years old, right? Just doing my thing. It's not my job to be out there trying to fix everybody. Most people don't want to be fixed.   They want to stay where they're at. Even if they're miserable, even if they're complaining to their friends, most people don't want to make a change until they are so uncomfortable. They have to do something different.   Melanie Wilson (51:53) my goodness. Do people sometimes not realise that they are having that preference?   Lisa Gornall (52:00) Well, you know that people, I mean, I can list off several people's names right now, but I won't because if they listen to this and they'll know. But I know several people who, know, even people that are like, at least I want to work with you. And like, I read their energy and they are stuck with the same thing for years. For years. Because just because we know something's wrong.   Sometimes there's this comfort in, I understand what's happening right now. Like this feels comfortable. I'm afraid to make that leap. I'm afraid to do something differently. Or I don't think I can have what I want to have. There's all these different things that hold us back and keep us stuck. And we've got to decide, am I more miserable than this uncomfortableness where I'm hating my life and complaining all the time? Is this worse than taking a risk and seeing if things can be better?   Melanie Wilson (52:52) Absolutely. Absolutely. And that pattern, that pattern can be a fear. It can be a feeling. Sometimes I think what I can draw upon is we kid ourselves. And so we, we have to sometimes look beyond our own denial. And I think that's where people like you and others   Lisa Gornall (53:10) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (53:22) come in drawing on my own frame of reference for a second. I remember so early on, mean, I could talk about more recent things, but very early on when I started learning how to present, people said that I looked nervous and I thought, but I don't feel scared of this, but there was some sort of lightiness or flittering. was this, they could sense something. And   Lisa Gornall (53:46) Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (53:48) It was like this inner fear and very occasionally in life, people said just occasionally, you seem scared. And so perhaps sometimes people don't realize that they are holding onto the fears. And have you seen that sometimes with the people you work with, they are not seeing their own limitations?   Lisa Gornall (54:15) We don't see our own limitations because they, even though they're holding us back, and I always describe fears as like they're like pulling on your shoulders and they're literally holding you back. You're not going to see them unless you talk to somebody who's helping you see it objectively. You know, I watch a lot of dating shows with my girls because they're, they're college age, they're 21 and 23. And I think it's fun. And we talk about the relationships and like all the things. And you know, on these dating shows,   They always go to like their friends who have the same perspectives and the same views and they keep you small, right? They say that you are the sum of the five people that you spend the most time with. And I've said this to my clients and they've been like, wow, these people are in the office or these people are here and like, this is who I'm with. And I'm like, but you chose for those people to be in the office. Like you hired them, you brought them in. But it's true. You're not going to see bigger.   than the amount of people that are around you because they're going to usually side with you. Most of the time friends aren't challenging you. Maybe you need to go to a sibling to get challenged or, you know, hire somebody to help you see more objectively. But the power comes in being objective and saying, Oh, I didn't even know that was there. Yeah, that is guiding me. I don't want that to guide me anymore. And that's where the power is.   Melanie Wilson (55:39) Yes, you are not the first one to say that some people can become a yes man. I assume that phrase is used over there as well. It's a bit gendered, but there are forms of a yes man or reaffirming. And these days people say that AI might do that, but also our friends can do that. And I think what you're saying is very significant because   Lisa Gornall (55:47) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Melanie Wilson (56:08) People are realizing we need to reconsider who we're surrounded by and who we draw upon. So there has to be a way to level up and, and the, the comparison that I want to use for what you're saying is I'm a little bit careful with those free networking groups. They're lovely and it's a good mingle, but have you said to that as well that sometimes   Lisa Gornall (56:32) Uh-huh.   ⁓   100%. They're called, I like to call them, well, here we call them freeple, like free people, freeple. They often have a lower energy vibration because they're not willing to really do anything or move forward and whatever is the cheapest, easiest, even if it's not getting them anywhere, that's kind of where they stay.   Melanie Wilson (57:02) That really is. And that's why I've been so reluctant to, gosh, I'm saying this in a recording. I'm so reluctant to do free events. I mean, people do that sometimes, but I think the reluctance and feel free to give an energetic perspective on this. really worry that when you give people a lot for nothing, then that's what they expect. And I say that they don't.   Lisa Gornall (57:26) They don't value it. Well, they don't value it either. They   don't. I can give people the most amazing advice on how to be on their best path and what they need to do. And if they don't pay me for it, they don't do it. It's crazy. Like when they started like all like the higher ticketing coaching and like all of this stuff, I was like, I don't know. I don't know. But there is something to be said about it because if you get something for free,   you don't value it and you're not going to do anything with it. But if you're paying for something, you're investing money that you've earned through time and energy and resources, and you are more likely to participate and to do something new.   Melanie Wilson (58:12) Yes. Yes. You invest more of your mental attention. You have more at stake as a reason to take action. Absolutely. And that's why I've seen sure some people will. The example I'll give is someone that I look up to as an ideal role model had over here, a one-off free gathering. that's fine. But I, but   Lisa Gornall (58:41) It still messes with it.   Melanie Wilson (58:42) I don't.   But I think that it was still by this thing and come along and it wasn't completely, it wasn't assumed that we are putting absolutely nothing into it at all. And also we are giving our attention. We might've looked at a lot of the content, but I think when we're giving absolutely nothing to something, ⁓ you know, I think.   Lisa Gornall (59:15) We don't see the value.   Melanie Wilson (59:15) what we're talking about   here. No, no, and what we're describing here is bless them so much. Bless the ones who gather these communities for free. But then I look, to be honest, I think sometimes people who go to those things are stretching the definition of what those communities are even about. And look, to each their own, it will still be ⁓   way to be around human beings and not be isolated. That's great. But we're talking about leveling up. And what we're saying is that when we want to challenge ourselves and reach the next level, really find abundance, then we're going to do that by putting something in and not expecting something for nothing.   Lisa Gornall (1:00:07) 100 % I agree with that completely. I've seen it so many times.   Melanie Wilson (1:00:12) seen that a lot. So a lot. I'm so curious to wind up a little bit because we reached an hour. I'm wondering, ⁓gosh, I'm wondering energetically, what do you say to people who are starting out as an independent business, kind of like how you are an independent business and they do want to protect their   Lisa Gornall (1:00:14) I see that a lot.   Melanie Wilson (1:00:43) professional energy so to speak, also there are triggers. What are three things that people can do, whether they are starting or growing, to look after themselves especially?   Lisa Gornall (1:00:58) Yeah, so the first thing is always going to be to bring in white light. We talked about it earlier, white light to just balance and ground your energy. So before you send a client email, before you meet with somebody in person or online, before you do anything, ground balance and align your energy because even if people don't understand it, they are constantly reading your energy. So that's the first one. The second one, let go. Clear your energy, stop.   holding on to all the things. You're gonna hear a lot of no's. If it's a no, it's just not your person. It's not the right time, it's not the right whatever. Don't take it personally and mean that you have to stop. Let go of whatever is coming at you that doesn't feel right. Let go of the stress, let go of the worry. When we worry about something, we put gray energy on it and you don't wanna put anything gray in your business. Love the color gray, it's one of my branding colors, but energetically, we don't put gray on anything. And the third thing is   Boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Boundaries are completely useless if we don't set them and enforce them. You need to have boundaries around how you're spending your time. Your clients, like, don't over give to them. If they're paying for an hour, give them an hour. They have something else to do and you're keeping them from doing it, right? Make sure you have boundaries around the amount of hours you're working. Don't work on the weekends. Whenever you're setting up, use boundaries to help you get there more easily and effortlessly.   Melanie Wilson (1:02:28) Use boundaries. That is great advice. And the positive boundary that we have found is I feel like I get to talk about this with you all day. And it's nice to set the expectation of that hour for the listener and for us. This has been so fascinating. It is the first time talking to someone who does this kind of work. Thank you so much for shining a light on   Lisa Gornall (1:02:37) Hahaha   Melanie Wilson (1:02:55) what you do and what we can all learn and how we can let go.   Lisa Gornall (1:03:01) Let go. Let go and be.   Melanie Wilson (1:03:05) Thank you so much, Lisa.   Lisa Gornall (1:03:07) Thank you.  

Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.    Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events.  https://www.motivatecollective.com/join       ...   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective community 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.   https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979    keywords meditation, spirituality, personal growth, mindfulness, self-discovery, work-life balance, gratitude, inner peace, spiritual awakening, holistic practices  takeaways Govinda balances his work as a data analyst with his passion for meditation and spirituality. Meditation can enhance learning and creativity, making it easier to pick up new skills. Finding peace in a chaotic world often requires looking inward rather than relying on external circumstances. Different meditation practices can cater to individual needs and preferences, making it accessible to everyone. Meditation can help release societal and familial conditioning, allowing for a more authentic self-expression. Integrating spirituality into everyday life is possible without abandoning professional responsibilities. Gratitude practices can enhance work satisfaction and personal fulfillment. Self-discovery is crucial for finding a fulfilling career path. Meditation can provide clarity and freedom from the pressures of societal expectations. Spiritual awakening often comes after a period of existential questioning or crisis.  summary In this conversation, Govinda shares his unique journey as a meditation teacher and data analyst, exploring the balance between spirituality and logic. He discusses the transformative power of meditation in enhancing creativity, learning, and personal growth. Govinda emphasizes the importance of finding peace within a chaotic world and the accessibility of meditation practices for everyone. He also addresses the societal pressures that can hinder self-discovery and the integration of spirituality into everyday life. The conversation concludes with practical advice for those seeking to navigate their spiritual paths while maintaining professional responsibilities. Titles Finding Balance: Govinda's Journey Through Meditation and Data The Intersection of Logic and Spirituality  sound bites "Meditation can enhance learning and creativity." "Gratitude practices enhance work satisfaction." "Find a practice you enjoy and do it daily." Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Govinda's Journey 05:42 The Impact of Meditation on Learning 11:35 Finding Peace Amidst Chaos 17:25 Govinda's Spiritual Journey 23:08 Balancing Spirituality and Everyday Life 35:02 The Search for Meaning Beyond Corporate Life 40:15 Spiritual Awakening and Identity Crisis 50:17 Practical Steps for Career Fulfilment       Transcript    Melanie Wilson (00:02) Hi, welcome to the show.   Govinda (00:06) Thank you.   Melanie Wilson (00:09) Now, for those who don't know, who exactly are you and what exactly do you do?   Govinda (00:15) Yeah, well, my name is Govinda, and I am a meditation teacher, and I do some I do some woo-woo stuff, you know, but I try to keep it less woo-woo for for those who, you for most people. But I do energy healing, and I also like to host tea ceremonies. I do also work as like a data analyst and programmer and work with health economists. So my brain can go in all the different directions and do whatever it needs to. But yeah, that's a little bit about what I do for my day-to-day.   Melanie Wilson (00:58) was wondering about that. was wondering what else you did aside from the woo woo. Now I have seen so many spiritual leaders from various different schools of thought, different traditions, who are also quite mathematical. So how does that work for you? Let's start with that flicking between the mathematical things, the data and the spiritual side. Is there anything that overlaps, or how does that all work out?   Govinda (01:34) Yeah, well, I think a whole spirituality actually connects both the sides of ourselves, that's more like woo woo and more intuitive and the one that's more logical. So I think for me, my life was very logical for a long time. And then some experiences broke me open in ways that I almost became illogical for a while.   And then I had to balance those two things out a little bit. So I guess in a way, I have to use more of my logical brain doing data analytics and programming, but sometimes I honestly like, I don't even have to think that much anymore. It's just intuition comes through, and I'm able to do stuff without having to really, really dig into focus like I used to.   Melanie Wilson (02:31) In the data work, are you using your intuition in that?   Govinda (02:34) Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I've spent months never having to think very hard because of you, just like follow the breadcrumbs of kind of what comes up in the work. But if I have to learn like a new language, I can change things. I've a new programming language.   Melanie Wilson (02:56) Yes. Any new language. I can relate to that. I pivoted slightly from yoga to Matt Pilates, and they have different words for the same things. And I bet with data, there'd be totally different languages, and it's a whole different thing that your brain has to do. A lot of people say that it's easier to learn a new language when you're younger. I don't know if that's true.   Govinda (03:23) for sure. Yeah. And what the weird thing is, the years of meditation I did, because I took three, four years off of working at all and meditated for three, four hours a day, plus some long retreats of more meditation. And when I came back to the role, I thought I wasn't going to know anything because a lot had changed. And all of a sudden stuff just popped up, you know?   And I was able to learn new languages a lot easier. It's the meditation that I learned kind of returns one back to this innocent childlike state, where the brain is much more fluid. And even, oh yeah, so I don't really know other languages too much. I'm American, know, like we didn't learn that many languages, and I grew up in a small town. So I just learned a few semesters of Spanish, and I never really was good at it. You know, I wasn't speaking to anyone. We're just kind of doing exercises on paper and for tests, and I was pretty bad at conversation. But then one time I met, let's see, it was like last year. I hadn't practised Spanish in seven to 10 years, and I met a Spanish person online, and we got together, and I just started speaking Spanish.   I was like, within an hour, we were conversing, and I was able to understand what they were saying. And it was, I very much think that deep meditation can help someone work back into that, that brain that is more childlike, and it's more fluid. And of course, learning languages is like that because most people struggle because they want to be a little bit perfectionist, but.   Melanie Wilson (05:01) Yeah.   Govinda (05:17) No child is a perfectionist about speaking. just want to be, they're very,   I mean, if it works, you know, then let's just say it that way until someone corrects them,   Melanie Wilson (05:28) Yes, there's so much in that. I wanted to start with the easy, simple question. You mentioned you grew up in a small town. Which part of America are you from?   Govinda (05:37) Yeah, I'm from Minnesota. I grew up in a town about an hour and a half west of Minneapolis.   Melanie Wilson (05:48) Okay, so small place. And were you always around there? Did you end up somewhere else?   Govinda (05:56) I did a lot of travelling. I went to college nearby. I wanted to get out, but it was a better deal to stay around. And then I did some travelling while I was in college and lived in different places. But afterwards, I did like a gap year type thing. I lived in Southern Africa and Swaziland at the time for a year. And then I came back to the state of Minnesota, hung out for a while, then eventually went to India for six months.   Melanie Wilson (06:34) Amazing. And we'll get to that. I wanted to know more about your journey that led you to meditation, but you mentioned that thing the brain does, where you just remember how to do something after a long time. And I'm curious, how exactly did you find that meditation helped you to tap into what you already knew? What were you doing? Were you? Was this after a long retreat or?   Are you doing a simple, short morning practice every day? What exactly happened for you to then feel confident and remember things that you knew?   Govinda (07:16) Yeah, well, part of the confidence comes from just being feeling safe no matter what, you know, feeling in whatever situation. So I'm just feeling comfortable. And I think   Yeah, so with meditation, it wouldn't necessarily be instant, but after all the practice I did, kind of it developed a very well, well grooved way back to this innocent place that I could return to at any moment. So, yes, yes, both long retreats that helped kind of teach me this groove and daily practice as well, because I just enjoy it so much that I still enjoy practising. And then, you know, even when a task or something comes up, you can kind of refocus in a way. And then it's almost emergent. It's almost like you don't have to go try to go through the files in the library of the head, something like that. It's not really like that. It's more like it kind of emerges and comes up as needed.   Melanie Wilson (08:36) It just comes to you kind of like how some musicians have talked about how a song just came to them out of the blue, or a writer says that a story just arrived to them. It's like that external creative genius that Liz Gilbert talks about in a way.   Govinda (08:48) Sure.   Yeah, maybe a little different in the case of if it's a skill I had already learned in the past, you know, rather than a truly like, you know, original. Yeah, a little bit, you know, but, you know, there are, I guess, programmers would know that creative genius comes out as well while you're programming because there's new ways of doing things you'd never thought of or never heard of or never been taught that might come to you while you're doing that.   Melanie Wilson (08:59) Yes. External, it's an internal thing.   Okay, that's really important in this economy and this era of tech, because I think that everybody is wondering, well, with AI, what's going to happen, and how can we pivot our skills? I think that tech is now something that everybody has to evolve with. And there's sometimes an assumption that there'll be a set way to do things. So I've mainly watched the marketing path, and what I see in some spaces is people will be married to a particular platform. Someone identifies as a Pinterest marketer, a LinkedIn marketer. And to me, that's the same as saying I only want to use this form of programming. I mean, I knew years ago, app developers who just thought it would be so much more effort to create for Apple instead of only Android. People, wherever they are from, I think, they get stuck in one direction. So it sounds like a big thing that you are doing is staying creatively open to changing how you do what you do.   Govinda (10:41) Yeah, I mean, this is kind of the way to not suffer so much in general in life, you know, is to stay open to what's gonna come and change. I mean, I don't know how anyone in this day and age is gonna be able to survive very well with such a rigid ⁓ self, a rigid identity even, because things are changing, I mean, especially since we have access to world news.   Everyone kind of sees what's happening, and you know it's very difficult if you continue to stay rigid on everything. I mean, I don't know, it would be very tough, I think.   Melanie Wilson (11:19) There's a point, frankly, so much has happened in the news lately that we could talk all day about that. And at least the one thing I try to look for without trying to understand everything that's going on right now is, at least, how can we find literally some peace in all of this?   Govinda (11:43) Yeah, well, it might be difficult to find it in the external world, to be honest. And if you have some nature around you, something that just gives you 10 minutes to go walk around in or see if that's possible. Even if you have a place, there are usually birds gathered even in the urban areas somewhere, you'll find some birds, know, some, those types of things can help. But of course, like I asked the same question in my life, even when things weren't as tough, I guess. And eventually it led to meditation, and kind of for me meditation, you know, a of people claim the other things help them too. Of course, yoga as well.   But yeah.   Melanie Wilson (12:30) I know that some people will say they believe or perceive that they can't handle meditation. I personally think that everybody can find some form of meditation. I grew up with a tradition that I won't completely identify with right now, but it had the phrase be still and know, and even that   Govinda (12:39) Hmm.   Melanie Wilson (12:57) pause, I think everybody has a version of, let's just stop for a moment. And so I'm wondering, what advice do you have to people who are sort of on the fence and wondering if they can meditate and if it's going to work for them?   Govinda (13:15) Well, I think they should find a meditation practice that does work for them. So if there is one that they've been trying and it's not really doing anything, well, they could switch. I found out pretty quickly that there's many types of meditation. This is a, and in terms of marketing, guess meditation is almost seen as one thing, know, sitting.   Melanie Wilson (13:37) All right.   Govinda (13:42) letting thoughts come in and just like watching them go by. Yeah, getting a mudra going. I like mudras, but you don't really need them. But yeah, mudras. Yeah, of course. like, found eventually, eventually I started doing like somatic practices that helped me. I meditated through that, you know, eventually body scanning is always a good thing. But trying different ones, body scanning is   Melanie Wilson (13:47) You   What's that? For those who don't know.   Govinda (14:11) Body scanning is simply like finding a comfortable position, know, could even be lying down. And then you start in a particular part of your body, usually at one end or the other, know, either top of the head or bottom of the feet. And then you just think through those spots very easily, not with a lot of effort and just see what comes up when you think through these spots, basically, and kind of   scan through your body to see if there's any sort of, I don't know, hiccups, I guess, along the way. So that's body scanning.   Melanie Wilson (14:52) It sounds a little bit like yoga nidra because I know in some forms of that people focus the attention on the tip of the finger and then the knuckle, and so on. Is it kind of like that?   Govinda (15:06) I suppose. I didn't do it too much longer after I discovered some other ones. So I'm no expert at body scanning. think maybe, yeah, well, you know, I went really woo woo, and I went and learned a pre-channelling meditation. So like a meditation to set myself up to like do channelling, which   Melanie Wilson (15:15) Okay, which ones?   Govinda (15:33) Honestly, I think it's just setting yourself up to find the source or to find the meditative state anyway. But that practice involved some chanting and then some scanning up through the spine, basically, like going from the bottom of the spine up to the top. And I found that those kinds of meditations can be really powerful.   Like even if you were to start, usually I would have someone kind of start in the heart and then they would drop down, you know, through their body slowly as they need to until they get to the bottom of their spine and then start going out like into the foundation of their home or wherever the building they're in is and then going into like the earth. And then we come back up from there and go back through the spine and out to the top.   That's a very simple meditation that can be effective. I found very effective and set me up for a lot of clear time to process what was going on in my life and in the world. But eventually I had to move on from that, too. I found a different one that ended up led the bulk of all my practice. It's got a fun name called Ascension Meditation.   It could even be called decent meditation. It really helps someone fall deeply into their body. And it's an effortless practice. So it's an effortless mantra meditation.   Melanie Wilson (17:17) Effortless. You mentioned that your personal life led you to need meditation. What can you share about what happened?   Govinda (17:30) Yeah. Well, you know, I guess it started, weirdly enough, it started when I was five. I was at this conservative Christian, like evangelical event, where I was invited to as a kid, you know, five-year-old, and I was invited to invite Jesus into my heart. And I was like, well, you know, why not? All these people are doing that. me see. And so I did that little.   Melanie Wilson (17:58) And we'll keep in mind, hold on, we'll keep in mind some listeners might still be into that, and we'll respect wherever people are, but we'll follow your journey.   Govinda (18:06) yeah.   Yeah, well, definitely, because at that time, I got an overflowing sense of peace washing over me. And so I was extremely like dedicated to Christianity from that moment until I was 20-something. And yeah, I was like, you know, reading the Bible and all the time and   I was praying all the time, and eventually I kind of had to analyse for myself whether that was really the right path for me. And eventually I found it was just a little too constricting. So I started to, I actually went like secular almost for a few months in my life, which I, pardon my.   Melanie Wilson (19:03) few months.   A whole few months!   Govinda (19:04) Yeah, for a few months.   For like six months, I'd stopped thinking about God. Yeah, I don't know. My whole life was thinking about God. Like, I had this thought when I was 13. I remember walking out into the street of my neighborhood and going, why, if eternity is something, like if this is, if there exists eternity in this world, like if there's this much time, you know, there's millions and millions of years.   What is the 70-odd years of this life? What am I supposed to do here? Is it just random? Yeah. And at that moment, the answer was related to Christianity. But it did also have, at that moment, had some depression in there, which kind of asked, why would I even go on with?   Melanie Wilson (19:38) What's the point of it all?   Govinda (19:57) 50 more, I was like 13 years old, like 50 more, you know, whatever, don't know, 80 more years in this life if eternity is waiting. And why would I do that?   So I was like, oh, know, like heaven is coming up after. So yeah, I guess what I found in meditation was a release from that experience of feeling separate from all things. And that felt like drinking water on a long desert hike for the first time. And so that's eventually when I said, yeah, go ahead.   Melanie Wilson (20:38) Okay.   So basically, you were focused so much on life after this one that you were wondering what's the point in anything now. It sounds like your core question was what's the point of this life, and meditating, was it bringing you back to the meaning and purpose of now? Was it connecting you with the gratitude for the   wider universe and environment around you? What perception shifted exactly?   Govinda (21:21) The question faded once I, when I experienced what I experienced on meditation. It was like inherently obvious that like life is meant to be lived, and there's just like a deep appreciation, gratitude and some sort of inherent love in existence in and of itself.   that I was experiencing. And then over time, I wouldn't experience that. So then I would meditate more, kind of thing.   Melanie Wilson (21:57) Right, okay.   So you just sort of found some appreciation for everything. And I'm really curious. This kind of leads to then with all the gratitude and integrating with the world, and just easing up on the question of what's the point of everything. I'm wondering, what can you say to people who are perhaps delving deep into a spiritual path? I'd say it happens quite a lot these days.   Someone might have a trip to India like you had, someone might just delve deeply into a school of thought, but then they still need to live in the world and do a nine-to-five or grow a business, whatever it might be. And there could be this tug, right? There's this tug between our purpose-driven existence and everything else. And for me, I had the tug between living sustainably and realising that the environment that I'm in doesn't always support that. It was, so I think that everybody has this negotiation between being completely focused entirely on these higher ideals and then existing in a flawed world. I'm wondering, how did you, how do you balance all of that?   Govinda (23:27) Yeah, I mean, it's difficult to balance with a kind of logical mindset around it. Eventually, I think I find myself in the context of the world and somehow, the heart knows what it wants to do in every moment. And so it might not be the most sustainable action every single time.   I might need to go drive somewhere and do something, you know, right? But for some reason, there might be some inexplicable reason for me to go do something that the heart is wanting to tell me to do. You know, might end up saying something to someone along the way that helps change their day. So I think for me, meditation, it helped release the pressure of having to be and do something that I thought I needed to be or do basically releases a lot of conditioning of the society and of the family and of what someone has built up over time.   Melanie Wilson (24:42) Right. It releases the conditioning of society and family. That is very crucial these days. I think that is because a lot of people are raised to become something in particular, not everybody, but maybe people's parents expect them to be something or even culturally   I'd say these days there's a bit more flexibility. A lot of people my age drop thinking, do a nine-to-five and that's it. And there's a big mindset shift going on now, for example, where a lot of people believe they need to do something to support themselves beyond a nine-to-five. So there are all these identity shifts. And it sounds like what you're saying is that meditation can help us to get freedom from the expected identities that other people, be it individuals or the culture we live in, it can free us up from those identities to figure out what actually feels right for us.   Govinda (25:51) Yeah, and even to feel the pressure of having to succeed or achieve something. You know, at some level, I'm talking that there's an order of the universe that's happening without you being able to control it. And so meditation can help you tap into such an order where you start to see that I'm not really in control as much as I thought I was.   And that actually is a lot of freedom. It's a lot of release of like that need to do something. But of course we're talking also people need to make money. you know, but I'm not saying someone just becomes some sort of a lazy bomb. You know, it's more like you can literally watch the whole thing at play. You know, don't have to like, like you might even.   Just say the perfect thing, and all of a sudden you're in some sort of business meeting, and you're making a deal, you know, it's that kind of thing that can happen.   Melanie Wilson (26:58) You can say the perfect thing.   Govinda (27:01) But you wouldn't even know what it was. You wouldn't even be planning the perfect thing. But yeah, it's, I think one can be in a nine-to-five and still be spiritual and still be connected. Now they might need a few years of break, rest or something like I had. And that might be why they feel tugged to get out. But it doesn't mean they have to be fully gone from that life, you know, forever. So, or maybe they can kind of walk the line and do it both. There are good practices out there where we call it being a householder. And a householder is someone who's got a meditative practice or a spiritual practice, you know, sometimes we call them sadhanas. And they can be doing this and be working and having kids and having a family or doing whatever that stuff you know that kind of thing.   Melanie Wilson (28:07) Yes, the break, the few years off, I feel very reassured hearing that you had that because I had a bit of a gap from doing mainstream forms of work. And I think it did seem very counter-cultural, and you hear some people online saying that they worried if they took a break, it would ruin their careers, things like that.   And although, although a lot of people read Eat, Pray, Love, that person, Liz Gilbert was, I know I've referenced that twice, but I feel like the whole pilgrimage thing applies here. I'd say she was still paid to ride in that time. So it's very different. And, and so.   I think, I think the thing I'm really wondering is how did you find that, um, how did you find that you could still integrate back and where are you feeling like a better professional? You mentioned you were finding your confidence after a break, but how did you get to that reassurance returning to what you do after a gap?   Govinda (29:32) Well, yeah, it really depends on the gap, I suppose. But for my gap, it set me up to not have a stake in the game as much, which gave a lot more freedom to be more whole at work, even, and not have to worry about my image or anything like that, which   It didn't mean I was an asshole or anything, but it just meant that I didn't limit myself in ways that I would have in the past. You can write emails a lot more freely. It doesn't take an hour to figure out what to say. The work is a lot more free. I suppose it depends if you're on your... Ideally, this three-year gap would help you find your free-flowing path.   That is set up for your soul, and then things tend to flow a lot better. And so yeah, I would say you could, if you're going to go back to your old career, then things off for me were just fine and even better. was sitting in the office in a, know, sit in deep silence, even though it's an office and I'm doing work, you know, at the same time.   Melanie Wilson (30:59) You could find the silence within.   And the self-image, did you, did you feel a pressure or an expectation before the break to do the, I don't know, the sort of mad men self-image or some sort of version of being what you were looking a particular way and becoming something instead of just, I'm doing work. I'm a part of something that's a machine, I'm contributing value, but I'm not depending on my identity on it. Was it that sort of shift?   Govinda (31:39) Yeah, yeah, definitely. Before going on this kind of deeper journey, you know, every assignment, every thing that I would do kind of felt like it was being judged a little bit, you know, at least not by someone else necessarily. But like, you know, there's always a little bit of a feeling that I need to perform well all the time. And over time, I realised, you know, it's of course I want to perform well, but it's not going to affect my anxiety or something that would affect my life outside of work.   Melanie Wilson (32:21) Do you think sometimes when we get high pressure or work, there's a primitive part of us that senses or assumes that things are almost life or death, even though they are not, we have that sort of dependence on what we're doing?   Govinda (32:41) I think if you browse the internet enough and social media, you'll see tons of accounts of people feeling that way. know, feeling that every little thing they do is a little bit, is going to like ruin their life or not. And so that kind of subtle programming that I didn't realise I was operating under, released a lot throughout those years of break from that. That was probably   Yeah, the first like year of meditating without any work, you know, I just had a lot of thoughts went by around self-worth related to work. And, you know, am I doing the right thing in society and all these things that just kind of learned as almost subliminally up until up until my mid 20s. Those things came through very hard.   I mean, just imagine you go from like, I was one of these straight A students, you know, I was trying to get pre-med, was trying to go to med school, that kind of thing. And going from that to like, just sitting around every single day, you know, like, like not doing anything, like, it was a big shift. And it was wonderful, too, you know, so much rest and, and eventually, it was because I was meditating while I was working, you know, doing the regular kind of three times a day practice and that each session was getting so blissful and so wonderful that I wanted to go longer. And so I couldn't because I had to work. And so I eventually was like, well, I'll just quit work so I can just meditate longer. You know, I don't want to have any limits on my, I don't want to put an alarm on. I don't want to do any of that.   So, yeah.   Melanie Wilson (34:39) Okay. So part of this was you needed to get out and be in environments beyond the office. I would say a lot of people want that these days, and people have been searching for a version of that goodness the last decade or two. There were schools of thought like the four-hour work week, which is more of a figure of speech than literally what people should be doing, but there were all these versions of, you know, fire, I forgot what that stands for, the freedom to do something financially independent. Yes.   Govinda (35:15) Yeah, that's something about retiring early. Financial independence, retire early.   Melanie Wilson (35:20) So there are all these versions, so many, whether it's that or the traditional gap year, there's this longing for people to get beyond the fluorescent lights and the office. So it sounds like for you, a change of environment did help you to just look beyond the corporate and just look within basically not being distracted by that for a bit of time. Do you think, have you known some people who have achieved that return to a fresh perspective without taking a whole few years?   Govinda (36:09) I don't know if I know anyone that's done that. But yeah, you know, my generation, I think, also kind of sees some of the bullshit of corporate life. And, you know, so it's not necessarily the people around me are more similar to what I did than the other way around. I wouldn't necessarily, so some people don't necessarily need to leave their jobs because they're already happy in them. So it's different. If you're talking to someone that's deeply unsatisfied with their job, then they want to switch and take a break. I tried the hardest. I had stuff happening when I started my job, that's when a lot of spiritual awakening started happening. It was only in my second month of my first job after my master's degree. I like, I mean, I had taken a small dose of magic mushrooms and, and like, yeah, not at my job, but with my friends. And ⁓   Melanie Wilson (37:09) Wow.   Govinda (37:24) I like left the universe on that. And then I came back, and then it just persisted for weeks. And I was going into the office looking like just hanging out and experiencing deep bliss, like looking at the cubicle walls and just experiencing bliss off the walls. So.   I've like walked to the break room, and I look outside and see the sun peering over the trees, and I would just start crying. You know, this happened for many weeks in a row, and eventually it faded. Yeah, so I eventually it faded, and I'm like, well, and everything was working perfectly the whole time I could work.   When I needed to, I mean, I didn't have that much work at that time, so I was able to kind of relax. But when I needed to do some analysis, I was just able to do it and then present it. It wasn't like I was incapable of working. But eventually, for me, was like, OK, I got to find a way to have this without some sort of... Yeah, because I did do those for almost a year.   Melanie Wilson (38:33) Mushroom.   Govinda (38:38) Every few months, it was tough on the nervous system over time. But eventually, I found a meditative practice that provided the very same environment without the harshness on the nervous system.   Melanie Wilson (38:56) Interesting that opening up a whole can of lamps, because most people at some point will turn to something external. And yes, those who are not pursuing an enlightened path might have a few drinks, whatever. But also, I had moments of I'm so stressed, maybe a whole lot of essential oil will distract me from how I'm feeling or whatever it might be. Do you think people do look for those external things, and I'm wondering, does it help a bit, but to some extent, is it just icing on the cake? All those bells and whistles.   Govinda (39:39) Every person has to look for the external things until they aren't satisfied with them. That's how that's part of the path is continuing to look externally until you finally decide, nothing out there is helping.   Like nothing, even the most promised land of you know of s#$ basically even like that's gotta be like the most promised land of all the things you know like even then you're like this isn't really doing it you know and so eventually turning internally unless for some reason some people are already on a deep path without having to do that   Maybe I don't know what happened, but sometimes they're already living some sort of life that is evoking a deep sense of peace for them.   Melanie Wilson (40:27) you   I'm glad you said that because I wanted to very respectfully reference the religious followers that I saw very early on in life, who are doing something meaningful, and it's all good, but the thing that I struggled with very early on was that so many people felt rescued, and although some things had been stressful or traumatic within my personal life to some extent, I was just wondering, I'm in the suburbs, what am I getting rescued from? I think it seems like some people need the great epiphany to find the spiritual meaning. You think that it really does, do you think that the spiritual awakening really does come to some people after a bit of an identity crisis or some sort of other pivotal moment later on?   Govinda (41:30) absolutely. Yeah, I mean, this would be the dark night of the soul, right? This is a, this is that deep sense of existential angst for life. It drives one to search. And so, yeah, not everyone actually is going through that, and that's okay. But those who are, you know, eventually they're gonna have to find out that like, the external world is not offering that in general. Yeah, and of course, like, I also found a lot of satisfaction through religion. And that's why I stayed, you know, that I just eventually found that the experience of, of God isn't isn't it isn't bound within one of the religions. It doesn't really make sense that the infinite, like some sort of ultimate, all omnipotent, omnipresent being would be bound within one thought system on the planet. And one of the things I always was interested in was like, if most humans don't switch religions based like from what they were born into. And so if most aren't, you know, switching, then then only the one you're born into, if that's the right one, then you got kind of lucky some level. And it just doesn't make that much sense to me. But someone's experience on being a Christian or being a Buddhist or being a Muslim or something, if they have experiences that are inexplicable experiences, those are totally true. That's not wrong at all.   Melanie Wilson (43:29) No, no, it really, it works for people wherever they are. And I think that I've found a lot more of peace with knowing, okay, every tradition serves its purpose for its people. And I'm curious, did you see that within various religious traditions? There is some form of believing the divine is within you. And I'm wondering, with meditation, is it a way to tap into that divine, whatever people may call it, the divine within, instead of looking for those external things like what we talked about. So in that sense, meditation surely could overlap with all of these other traditions.   Govinda (44:22) Yeah, it's really nice to have meditation alongside any other tradition. Yeah, and I think like contemplative prayer for Christians is a very positive form of meditation. I mean, the issue we're running into a little bit here is I grew up in conservative American Christianity, which has a very knee-jerk reaction to the word meditation. So that's what, yeah.   Melanie Wilson (44:49) Really?   Govinda (44:52) They're so anti. They put out these teachings that anything from the East is basically the devil. So you get all these people that get so afraid. And I guess if you have any listeners like that, just say you don't have to worry about it. You just got to try things. And this is why contemplative prayer is a good way to call it, because I would   Melanie Wilson (44:52) What happened?   Govinda (45:20) Personally say that's also meditation, but you know when you have these kind of conditionings knee-jerk reactions to words, then got to be careful. But yeah Contemplative prayer and that is good. I think Muslims do their five-day five prayers a day thing, which is pretty cool, too   Melanie Wilson (45:42) Five would be, it's very disciplined. Yes. Applying the core intention to anything contemplative, it's a way to translate all of this. And I'm very reassured hearing that from you because I think the thing I heard from some of these traditions is they were reluctant about yoga, which overlaps a bit with meditation in some ways.   But when I finally actually visited yoga and stuck with it, the focus was on the breath and just how the one flow of air that's all around us goes through us, and it goes through all of us. And that wasn't worshipping some other gods, although some people do that. And I also found online a Christian yoga teacher. There is an overlap because people were able to apply those universal concepts of, okay, there's something that's all around us. Let's connect with that by slowing down. And I'm very concerned that it seems like some people out there in America, wherever it might be dismissing some forms of practice, not realising it could actually support their beliefs because slowing down, I know some religious people go to Pilates because they think it will avoid the wrong spiritual things more than if they did yoga, but then I've seen both of those and only one of these two things will really slow you down and make you focus on the spiritual side of whatever you believe in. I'm wondering, do you have any other advice beyond contemplative prayer to the people who believe in any traditions and are a bit reluctant? Do you think there is a way they can meditate without being worried that it could threaten their beliefs?   Govinda (48:00) Well, you know, in a way, the beliefs could change. I have to be honest. I don't know if the beliefs would necessarily stay if you were doing meditation. mean, I was I was doing prayer, a lot of prayer. Right. I mean, as a kid and I started with some prayer called the joy. Joy prayer.   And it was started, was like, you pray thinking Jesus, J, J-O-Y. And then you pray for others, and then you pray for yourself, J-O-Y, joy prayer. And that's where I started. I was like, okay, it's an interesting prayer. And then eventually I started asking, what is good, what is the good of me praying to an all-powerful being and asking them to change something?   And then eventually I started realising, well, what it was doing was it was changing my heart around things. And it wasn't necessarily changing the reality of like some situation, or it wasn't changing all the things that were happening, but it was changing my view on things and changing, making me softer towards things. And eventually I started realising like, what am I even doing praying for hours and hours, you know, if nothing's coming up.   If nothing's coming up. And eventually, just like sitting in silence. I just started being like, well, I guess I just gotta sit here. Just wait, like pose one question and then just sit here. And so eventually, like for me, the prayer life led to meditation, right? Sitting in silence. And so...   I think like a lot of some sort of internal practice, it's gonna, it's gonna change beliefs. I don't know how it couldn't as in an honest way. You know, if it's not really changing anything in that, because we're talking about even the tradition should probably should help you, like, find God,   Melanie Wilson (49:56) Okay. you   Govinda (50:14) You know, even these traditions should help you find God. And I think most of the time, it's the conditioning on the person that is blocking that. And so, yeah, I guess, I don't know if it's gonna like root out the core of your belief, but maybe some of the side ones that you think were important might go away. Yeah, I can't promise that you're gonna stay the same if you start a contemplative practice, but I think you might be happier.   Melanie Wilson (50:36) Some of the... Okay.   Right, you can find more happiness when you pause and contemplate, and I'm going to interpret that, at a minimum, some of the interpretations of our beliefs, the ways in which we assume our beliefs need to be lived out, could evolve.   Govinda (51:13) Yeah, yeah, and I think, I mean, if you find a practice that you enjoy, and you do it every day, and you enjoy it very much, that's a lot of value. There's a lot of value in that. There's a lot of people that don't enjoy any part of their lives. And so if you're doing something that you're loving every day, you know, that's pretty valuable.   And so I guess if someone finds a practice they enjoy a lot, then it'll help coincide with their beliefs, and it'll be okay.   Melanie Wilson (51:50) Awesome. And going back to work, because one of the main goals of this show is to look at how we can look after ourselves when we're doing work. I'm curious, people look at gratitude and various journaling or gratitude practices of various sorts for work and also manifestation. So I think that is getting into the mainstream, and you mentioned wondering how a particular practice in, in your story, was your phase of prayer and wondering, questioning whatever practices we have, how can we make sure we are taking action and actually moving ourselves in the direction that we need to go in, instead of only sitting in contemplation? Have you seen in your life?   Have you seen in your life that progressing from your years of contemplation to then acting on things and integrating yourself into your professional career, have you found that taking action without getting dependent on these forms of work for your identity? Have you found that that's as important at times as just meditating?   Govinda (53:17) Yeah, well, you know, those years of meditating helped me be able to meditate eyes open as well. You know, the practice that I learned, it actually has both a closed-eyed and open-eyed component. So, you know, I guess you don't really there isn't a difference in action at some level. You're just like, I'm able to go out and do all the things that I would do, but I'm also meditating at the same time. And so... like I said before, the few years were kind of to help my nervous system calm down from all the stress of the 25 years or so of building stress, you know. And so eventually that just allowed a much more clear sense of the meditative state, even while working or programming or going to meetings or doing creative work, of course, that's much easier even. But yeah. So yeah, mean, yeah, 25.   Melanie Wilson (54:26) 25 years.   I'm just checking for a second. Was going to ask earlier, you did your master's. So, how many years were you at college? Was it a long time of stress at college before then even doing work?   Govinda (54:45) I took some years in between my uni and my grad school. So actually, the most stressful year or something of my life was working as a medical scribe in a clinic where they were doing pain medicine. So every patient was going through a lot of pain and I was having to do like 20 or 20 appointments a day, like typing all the notes.   That was probably the most stressful thing. And that was in between uni and grad school. I didn't go straight through school and then go to my first job. It was just my first job after grad school, which was a much more chill job. It was an office job, you know, rather than like I had worked retail, and I was actually a youth pastor and doing like scribe work. And then I went into grad school and then.   Melanie Wilson (55:23) Yes.   Govinda (55:44) And then I started working as like an analyst at a health insurance company.   Melanie Wilson (55:50) You were a youth pastor as well. Did you do a qualification for that?   Govinda (55:53) Yeah.   No, I didn't do a qualification for that. My qualification was being a Christian, I guess, and doing the year abroad in Swaziland. They liked that.   Melanie Wilson (56:10) Right, right. That would have given you lot of perspective being in another country for that long.   Govinda (56:18) Yeah, I was in the rural part too, as well.   Melanie Wilson (56:18) So.   That's a whole story in itself, but getting back to everything, it sounds like it was very much as a grad when you're sitting in an office quietly wondering, okay, what's now? What now? What's the word of wisdom that you can share? What are three things? I love to wind up these chats with three things that everybody can do. Maybe they are new in their careers, or maybe they have been working for a long time but wondering, okay what's the point of everything, or they're just trying to figure out who else can I be anything like that? What do you suggest to everybody?   Govinda (57:09) Yeah, well, I would spend a little bit of time getting to know yourself if you haven't done that. know, getting to know what makes you a little different than other people. And then that'll help kind of evoke a path that fits you better. You know, if you're feeling somewhat disenfranchised or if you're feeling unhappy about your work, then getting to know yourself will help lead you to what you want to do, what you might want to do differently. And not necessarily, you might even want to go deeper than like Myers Briggs, and you might want to go a little deeper than that, you know. You could get into Enneagram, you could get into other things as well, but   Melanie Wilson (57:45) You   Govinda (58:01) Yeah, I would say do that and then also a little time, like figuring out what your heart really wants in life and then going and doing that even if it's a little bit scary. Of course it's going to be scary, right? This is kind of hand in hand with change. yeah, figuring out what your heart wants and even if you, you know, I know I didn't know what that meant for a long time at the   I needed advice from others, but I didn't want to take advice from just anyone because not everyone is that wise. I went to, you know, spent time figuring out who were good people to listen to and what advice they would have.   Melanie Wilson (58:47) So look for advice from people and also look within. Govinda, thank you so much for chatting and exploring your experience and your insights about finding a spiritual journey and some meaning within when we are also working in mainstream careers. This has been very insightful. Thank you.   Govinda (59:14) Thank you for having me, Monty. It's been a lot of fun. I enjoy it very much.   Melanie Wilson (59:19) Thanks.    

Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.   Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events. https://www.motivatecollective.com/join       ...   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective community 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.   https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979     keywords   meditation, transcendental meditation, chakra healing, personal growth, creativity, mindfulness, self-discovery, overcoming obstacles, intuition, photography     Summary   In this conversation, Daria shares her transformative journey through meditation, particularly focusing on Transcendental Meditation and chakra healing. She discusses how these practices have helped her overcome personal obstacles, heal emotionally and physically, and connect with her creative self. Daria emphasises the importance of solitude and self-discovery, and how meditation can align various aspects of life. The discussion also touches on the connection between energy, intuition, and creativity, as well as her background in photography and how it intertwines with her spiritual journey.     Takeaways   Daria's journey into meditation was inspired by her personal struggles and desire for a fulfilling life. Transcendental Meditation has been a significant part of Daria's healing process, helping her find purpose and joy. Healing through meditation can lead to profound changes in mental and physical health. Chakra meditation has helped Daria balance her hormones and alleviate pain. Intuition plays a crucial role in decision-making and can be enhanced through meditation. Daria's background in photography has influenced her artistic expression and connection to meditation. Solitude can be a powerful teacher, allowing for self-discovery and personal growth. Meditation can help individuals align their lives and find clarity in their purpose. Creativity often flows more freely when one is in a meditative state. Listening to oneself is essential in determining the right path for personal growth.     Titles   Transforming Through Meditation: Daria's Journey The Healing Power of Transcendental Meditation     Sound bites   "I can literally heal myself." "I started enjoying my own company." "Everything in your life will align."     Chapters   00:00 NEWCHAPTER 04:32 Transcendental Meditation: A Personal Experience 06:15 Celebrity Influence and Creative Flow 11:58 Overcoming Obstacles Through Meditation 17:15 Healing Through Chakra Awareness 23:06 The Spiritual Connection of Chakras 25:11 Energy Flow and Intuition 30:05 Daria's Journey into Photography 31:39 The Healing Power of Solitude 34:14 Art, Meditation, and Self-Discovery     Transcript Melanie Wilson (00:00) I'm really wondering what inspired you to start talking on podcasts about meditation? Daria (00:09) Well, I guess the main thing that inspired me was my personal journey because You know when I look right now on people who are in survival mode, I guess I've been there once and I was always like wondering how it is to be like like to live life of your dream, but not just like a dream but actually to have this is a reality and it's cool to have dreams, but it's also cool to create that reality that looks like your dream. And funny enough, like now I'm more active on threads, and I ask people, what would you do if you wouldn't be on survival mode? And I was kind of, well, maybe even shocked by the answers because a lot of them said, I don't know, because I never been on the other side. Let's say like I have haven't ever been not in the survival mode. So I don't even know how it feels. And I guess that was in the past, partially for me as well. Like I couldn't understand how it feels until I started meditation, until I started this healing process. And then actually something opened up, and like I, yeah, I just discovered a new world where it's possible, you know, to experience joy, to heal parts of yourself that were all the time judgmental or hesitant. And well, yeah, I've been as a photographer for more than 16 years, and it was like a big part of my life. And then I always struggled because I was like, yeah, I had this imposter syndrome, and I was always thinking that someone has to find me because yeah, you know, if everyone says I'm talented, so why wouldn't they hire me like to do all this project? But I didn't realize that I always like was hiding and I was still like very judging myself and my skills. And I was afraid like to show up, to be visible, to talk about my art. And then again, with the meditation and with this healing process, I realised that it was simply about confidence. Like if you talk about your skills, your it's not being, it's not necessarily like being arrogant, yeah? It's necessarily like your ego talking about this. It's simply about being confident, and especially if you understand what's your purpose, then you are even more confident to talk about this. And what happened when I started this healing journey and meditation journey is that actually, it was a beautiful process. I wouldn't say that everything started to unfold straight away. It took some weeks, it took some months, but then, literally, my depression, it just went away. Like if before I couldn't even get up from bed, you know, and I had epressive thoughts and then suddenly I started to have like to feel the purpose in life to meaning in life and Yeah, I think like lots of things change it was like 360 like turn And then I just realized how powerful it was and Of course, I continued my journey, but I kind of realized that this is so beautiful that I should bring it to others Melanie Wilson (03:38) Yes. Daria (03:57) It was basically the message coming to me during the ceremony of Transcendental Meditation. Meditation is like a medicine, like medication, and that I should just bring it to others. And then after some time, I started also teaching, guiding, and now... Melanie Wilson (03:58) Thank you We Daria (04:24) I felt like I would like to talk about this more and bring it on the next level. Melanie Wilson (04:30) Did you say you follow transcendental meditation? Daria (04:32) Yeah, I started practising Transcendental Meditation. It was kind of quite an interesting journey to get there because I have heard about this from David Lynch so many times. I have read in the book, and then I was like just curious. So, where do I get this mantra? How do I get there? And then I moved at that time to Portugal and I saw again I was like on YouTube and saw this video where David Lynch explains how transcendental meditation works and I was like my god this is so beautiful I just need my mantra where do I get it and then finally I saw like a window popped up and it says like find your teachers I was like wow like there is like it's just like a sign for me so I contacted straight away and they said that actually in the town where I live there are teachers and I could choose because some would speak English others not and then I found my teachers and like I went probably on the second day I just like went straight away they had like introduction you know they told me everything how it works and then maybe it was like third or fourth day it was a ceremony and it was like a beautiful. For me, it was like a beautiful experience, this ceremony. And when I came to the ceremony, I felt like, okay, it's gonna be like a life-changing event for me, you I just felt it. Melanie Wilson (06:00) Thank you. That's amazing. And this got my attention because I heard that a bunch of celebrities also follow Transcendental Meditation. It has some high-profile advocates. Have you heard about that? Daria (06:31) Yes, yes, definitely. Well, actually, Ray Deleu is one of them, the businessman, right? And if I'm not mistaken, Cameron Dias and some other celebrities practice. I might be wrong if they practice exactly a transcendent meditation, but as far as I remember, these names. Yeah, I know that it's great and I know that they have they mentioned also that it was quite life-changing for them because it kind of opens up some creative flow. That's what I also noticed, like from the very beginning. Somehow, you sit in this meditation, and then ideas just like start flowing, you know, and, yeah, at that time, I was still in photography, so it started to show up in my photography, like these creative ideas, I started to have like these projects. But then, interesting enough, my meditation scripts started to come in the meditation, in the transcendental meditation, you know? Melanie Wilson (07:36) You found that you had more creative flow after meditating. Daria (07:51) Yeah, there were like different experiences. So sometimes I remember my childhood, very interesting moments that I would usually not even remember. But then suddenly it felt like I was back in that beautiful moment, maybe somewhere walking in the forest or something like that. And then, yeah. And then later, I started to experience these creative moments more and more. But yeah, you need to be quite consistent, you know, it needs to be like your routine because usually it's like meditating in the morning and afternoon. Sometimes when I can't fall asleep, maybe the day was very like exciting and all that. So I just like repeat silently this mantra and it also makes me to fall asleep like straight away Melanie Wilson (08:51) That's so good. You fall asleep that quickly. Daria (08:55) Yeah, it's amazing. Melanie Wilson (08:57) How long do you recite your mantra? How long do you keep that going during one meditation session? Daria (09:04) Well, usually they say you need to repeat it for 20 minutes, and sometimes, you know, I don't watch like I don't look at my watch. Just practice and see how long it goes. Yeah, there are times that I start and then my mind can be chattering, and then it takes a couple of minutes to adjust, and then it's quiet, and then you just see it. Melanie Wilson (09:05) I'm sure it is. Daria (09:34) So honestly, I don't even know if sometimes I do it for longer or for shorter time. I don't set an alarm because I don't just don't like an alarm sound. But yeah, what feels natural basically. Melanie Wilson (09:49) You go with the amount of time that you need. I really appreciate that. There's a flexibility, and I can share with you that today I tried a yoga practice alone, and I realised I was looking at the clock too much in hindsight. I just sort of pardon me. I should have set a timer. I'll edit that part. See, we can edit. If I'd set a timer, but with what you're doing, you're just doing the amount of time that feels right for you, isn't any expectation to do five minutes or 20 minutes, or I mean, you have the standard of 20 minutes, but it's very much what feels right on the day. Daria (10:29) Exactly. Yeah, because for example, as I say, when I want to fall asleep, and I simply repeat it, maybe just for one, two minutes and then I just like, whoop, went away. Yeah. So. Well, knows? Yeah, but I honestly, I simply don't like alarms. Even in the morning, I try like if there are no meetings, I just don't set alarms because I think Melanie Wilson (10:40) Instantly. You must have been tired. Daria (10:59) I rather keep my, you know, natural rhythm. If I want to sleep a little longer, then I just, yeah, allow myself to stay in the bed for a bit longer. So, and I guess in the meditation it's the same. Like I used to look at my watch, but I think it's even more destructive just to look at your watch or to have that alarm. And sometimes you just feel that, okay, this amount of time was already enough for me. And honestly, there are times that the ideas just like coming through and I'm like, okay, I just need to write down it right now. Or I need to write it to record because sometimes there are ideas that I want to speak, you know, to create this speaking videos and some messages like come literally. So I believe I just channel the message, and then I record it. Yeah. Melanie Wilson (11:58) Ideas come to you. I'm curious, how has transcendental meditation helped you with overcoming obstacles in your personal life? Daria (11:59) Hmm. Look, it's quiet, it's a good question, it's a great question, but it's difficult for me to answer if it was exactly a transcendental meditation, meditation, sorry, or it was a mix because I was, let's say, experimenting with other meditations as well, right? So I sometimes mix them. I would say I could do a Transcendental Meditation, then I would do one hour of Chakra Meditation. And maybe that was even more powerful that I started combining them. And that's actually another message that I had during the ceremony that I shouldn't just practice one type of meditation, I should like discover them. Because there are tons of different kinds of meditations, and I was really curious about that, and I also got certified in mindfulness meditation. So for myself, I started also practising this chakra meditation together with transcendental meditation, and that's when I also noticed that, for example, my hormones balanced naturally and because I had this struggle for a long, long time, and they were prescribing me different hormonal treatment, all that. It never worked out. Melanie Wilson (13:36) How is that impacting You, without going into anything you don't want to say, wondering where you're getting headaches, where you're feeling extra stressed? Were there things like that impacting you emotionally and mentally? Daria (13:49) Before you mean or yes, yeah, they definitely did. I mean, I didn't have like normal cycles, and that kind of disturbed me a lot, and also a lot of pain, so I've been using a lot of painkillers, and I just gave up Melanie Wilson (13:51) with the hormones. Really? Daria (14:14) Honestly, like at some point I just like give up with that, and that's why I find it like I call it miracle because I didn't even set this intention. It just happened naturally, like at some point I noticed that I started to have a regular cycle, and it's now ready for a couple of years like that. ⁓ Yeah Melanie Wilson (14:32) Seriously, so are you saying you were even on painkillers? It was that? No? Did I miss here? Yes, so you were even on painkillers, and you didn't have the regularity, and then you were meditating, and things improved? Daria (14:36) a lot. Yes, it happened. I would say I didn't like measure, but I would say after eight, nine months, that's what happened. Yes. And like right now I, I do sometimes have pains, especially if let's say I didn't like sleep well, you know, something so, but it's nothing to compare what it was before. Like, and yeah, I feel like I'm relieved from that experience, from that pain. Melanie Wilson (14:59) Wow. Daria (15:19) And it's a rare case that I would take any medicine at all right now. And yeah, it just feels like, you know, I can listen to my body better. Like I can literally sit, let's say in the morning and before meditation, after meditation, I just ask myself, okay, how am I feeling right now? Is there some tension? Where is it? And I literally can heal myself. And that's what we all have. We have... Like we have this ability to heal ourselves, you know, we just, we think maybe people are simply not aware of this or maybe scared what they find there, but actually this process is beautiful. When you start discovering it, okay. At first, maybe you need to get this trash out, you know, from your mind, from your body, but then it's like, it's like a purification basis, and then you find that you can communicate with your body, you can heal your body, you can sense if there is any emotion stored and yeah. So meditation definitely helped me with that, and be it mindfulness meditation, transcendental meditation or chakra meditation. think like yeah, well okay a lot. I experienced for me it's a miracle, but again, I sort of think or I sort of feel that it was also thanks to energy centers healing because I started to kind of dig deeper into that and I started to learn more about each chakra and which emotions it stores and how it's connected, let's say with other safety or this or that like inner child healing and yeah, by practicing that. Melanie Wilson (16:58) Thank Daria (17:15) I basically healed myself on different levels, and it felt like easier to act from the place of love and joy, and I don't know, for me every day I feel like in a way I'm like a child discovering the world again and again. Every day I'm seeing something, and I'm like, wow, this is so beautiful. So I'm able to do that because I'm not anymore in this survival mode. Melanie Wilson (17:21) Thank It sounds like relieving the stress and finding a way to maybe process memories or at least make peace with memories. It was, it was helping you physically. Daria (18:01) Definitely. Yeah, because everything was in a mental level. It definitely will affect to a physical level. And I've been just to make it clear, I've been the person, or actually, from the very childhood, I've been to the hospitals a lot. Like I always had something. And as I said, I just like maybe give up or maybe I just decided for myself, okay, I take care of myself right now. I don't put responsibility on someone or something. I, you know, I don't want to be any more a victim of these circumstances. I just want to heal myself, and I want to build that beautiful reality, which I believe is possible, you know, because also believing, I think it's a big part that it's possible. Yes, it takes time. Of course, it doesn't happen like this over the night, like, you know, just a magic trick, no, but with some consistency, with daily practice and at some point, you go deeper. Like actually, it was also quite a natural flow that I started with meditations, and then I went to theta healing, and it's, it also happened like. I don't know how to say, would I say accidentally? I don't know. Or was it meant to be? Because I met like... Melanie Wilson (19:27) What are you saying? It might have been fate. Daria (19:29) Yeah, like I have no idea, but I mean, I guess it was meant to be like to find this method of healing, because I literally simply came to one event and then I met the person and on her profile I saw that she said like I'm a healer and I had no idea what's this, but I sort of knew that it's just talking to me, you know. And I asked her like, okay, what's this and how can I learn or how can I become a Theta Healer? And then she just directed me to the teachers, to the instructors. And that was like a new step, you know, in my life. I felt like it was a profound experience. And in Theta Healing, also, at least that's how our instructor taught us, we also go into like chakra healing and because Melanie Wilson (20:31) What's the difference? What does the chakra experience involve for you? Daria (20:38) So, if you understand, like, which like each energy centres and what they like what they connect us with, let's say root chakra. Well, basically, the word has already from the Sanskrit it means root and connection, I think, if I'm not mistaken, and it connects us basically to the Mother Earth and to the world and even to our ancestors. So one way you understand this connection that it's much deeper, and you start healing on that level, like healing the chakra, then you feel less fear, and you feel the support. You literally understand that there is something or someone, some energy supporting you, and you sort of build it inside of you, this support. And for me, that was so powerful because a lot of people live literally there, just there. They can't even elevate their emotions and go up to let's say heart chakraand they just stuck in this root chakra, but this is like the base, and when you heal this basement base, or basement is the correct word, base wow okay, thank you yeah Melanie Wilson (22:08) Basement is under a house base. So it's basically the base will be the end of the spine. And my understanding is that the chakras go along the spine, and getting beyond any sort of magical things that might be theories about it. can say that when you're standing up tall, sitting up tall, and your whole spine is aligned, you're upright with confidence. And you also mentioned having faith in the earth below you and your surroundings, and having faith in basically something greater than yourself, because the top of the chakra line pretty much refers to the universal, let's word this carefully, it's referring to the supreme, the supreme spiritual source, God, whatever you may call it. So any belief system might have a different name for it, but it's essentially to quote 12 steps that I'm not a part of. It's having faith in something greater than yourself. Is that aligning with your understanding of chakras a bit? Daria (23:36) Yes, and also I guess we need to, whatever you know, believe it is, but we need to understand it's also about this energy flow, and I think what's also happening while you're healing these chakras, that and actually people tell me like my students, and I can sense it as well, like energy starts flowing, you can literally feel the movement in your body. Sometimes people say I felt it maybe in my legs, or maybe like in the throat or even here. So it of course depends on which level they are and what they're healing right now. Right. So maybe in the heart. So this energy starts simply flowing, circulating. And basically, when we practice it, we help also with our minds. So clear that space and to start this energy to circulate, you know. So it can be done through the movement, through the breathing and also through visualisation simply. And yes, like when you start aligning these chakras, then you definitely are connecting with these energies from above and below. And you understand that you're, well, in a way you're like a little human here, but at the same time you are everything because you are connected with all this energy. just become one, you know? So I think this is, yeah, amazing. Melanie Wilson (24:56) That's amazing. So the chakras remind you that you're a part of the greater universe. And again, for those who are going to call out the woo-woo, we are all breathing in the same air. Let's face it. The same air is circulating for all of us in some way. There is a connection with everybody. And when you feel connected to something and to everything, then you can feel less isolated. You can feel more confident, and you can know that there is a strength beyond yourself to face what you are facing. Daria (25:46) Yeah, and also if you think about this, honestly, we feel these energies, even if we think we, not everyone has disabilities, but we do. Like, let's say you enter into the room and you might already sense to whom you want to be connected, to whom not, because maybe someone just, like, sense this, as we say, like negative or positive vibes. It's, yeah, after all, it's not woohoo. It's like real thing. And we know, we sense it, you know, on some level, this energy, and I can sometimes even see also the difference when I have been like very aligned and like meditating, and I just go for a walk, and then suddenly people like turn to me, smile to me like it's just simple, simple as well. Melanie Wilson (26:33) Can I tell you, I visited a place today, I won't say where it was, and I just had a gut feeling. I just knew this is not where I should be, but I felt like I had to test it. I had to go there. And I know that sometimes our intuition tells us something before we have all of the information, because you just know, but also... Daria (26:56) Yeah. Melanie Wilson (26:58) There was information confirming, okay, here are some reasons why I should listen to my gut on this. But do you have that as well? Sometimes you can go into a space and you know, this is either aware I should be or not. Daria (27:12) Well, I actually tell you the real story. That was maybe a year ago, and I was working with them. I did like dog sitting for my friend, and I was working with the dog, and there was like a path with some construction going on on the pathway, and I felt like strongly I should avoid it, and basically what it meant to walk the road. So, okay, I looked at there are no cars and I can simply pass it. The moment we passed it, the wall started falling. Like literally, like huge pieces started falling. Like they did some, I don't know, as a construction or whatever they did. And it actually was open for pedestrians, imagine. But I don't know how that happened, but yeah, literally the wall started simply like falling. Like, I don't know. Melanie Wilson (27:50) The wall was falling! Daria (28:07) like above and from the side. So I literally avoided that just because I listened to my intuition, you know? And I know this feeling that sometimes we have this feeling, but we are like still stubborn, you know, like, ah, I felt that, but I still do this. And then we often regret, like, oh, why did I do this? Oh, why did I do this? And... Melanie Wilson (28:28) My goodness, it is so true. Daria (28:32) Yes, so when you start training your intuition, okay, of course it also opens up to you strongly when you meditate because then it means that you aligned and you again listen to your inner voice or to your higher self and then basically the training is simply to follow this instance, let's say, yeah, that God feeling, that intuition and then it simply proves you, yes, like you... If you feel that, okay, call this person right now, then just call. If it says like, I don't know, send this email or yeah, whatever. Sometimes I have the, like it just comes to me. Okay. I need to contact this person. That may be something going on. And then it just, apparently, I contacted just in the right time, and you know, maybe just say a word, whatever, and then the person says like, okay, it just made my day or whatever they are going through right now. Melanie Wilson (29:37) It's amazing when that happens, and I've even seen some people reaching out to me out of the blue, and I think this timing is spot on, and it sounds like you have that instinct to reach out to people at the right time when they need it. Daria (29:52) Yeah, exactly. That's beautiful. Melanie Wilson (29:54) I'm so curious. I wanted to know more about your background because the audience will be so curious. The photography, how did you get into photography? Daria (30:05) Well, first of all, maybe I should mention that I come originally from Ukraine and I started my photography path there. I guess it started because I saw my brother photographing, although it was a hobby for him. My uncle was photographing, so I had quite an artistic background, like my grandfather was a painter. Yeah, I guess I simply got influenced by that. And although I went to study languages and literature, I had this interest into art and photography. So I simply took a camera and would take pictures of either my friends or landscapes. And yeah, it started from there. But then I was at first I was self-taught, but then later I had this idea that I would like actually to go somewhere abroad and study abroad. And finally, many years after that first education, I decided to go to Finland and study photography there. And yeah. So it was also quite an interesting experience because it was a completely different country with different culture for me. But yeah, I guess I was just very excited. Although at the same time, I had to face some, well, difficult, you know, situations like challenges in my Melanie Wilson (31:39) so you basically got into photography because family did photography, and so I'm just curious, let's just near the end. It's been nearly an hour. I'm curious. What sorts do you still do photography now, or do you just focus on meditation? Daria (31:57) Well, actually, I found some deeper meaning in photography and except photography, I love doing filming. Well, just a days ago, I've been. Yes, yes. And just a couple of days ago, I've been to the forest like hiking and I took my camera. was like, OK, I should because I feel like I'm doing less. So I decided, OK, I'm going to start photographing and filming more and there was like a beautiful, beautiful part of the forest, like from a fairy tale, honestly and then I simply was filming that and in a way I felt that that was also my meditation you know I like could see every detail of that moss or some mushroom growing or a fern, whatever and just filming that process was very meditative for me. And then also I use this material later. If I want to talk about something on my ⁓ meditation page about meditation, presence, energy, whatever, I simply use this material. And I think that also, while I'm filming that in this meditative state, I sort of already bring the message just through this footage, right? And yes, do also sometimes clients work because I noticed that somehow I started to connect with completely different people like who are also into mindfulness and meditation. We are a lot of artists as well, contact me, you know, so it's somehow connected, and I'm happy to. Yeah. I don't know how should I wrap it up? Melanie Wilson (33:47) So you're seeing a connection between art and spirituality. Daria (33:53) Yes, I think it's a very strong connection. Melanie Wilson (33:58) Very strong. Now I'm wondering what do you think everybody else should do? Do you think everybody should do something creative, start meditating, find someone to help them to meditate? What do you think is the first step for everybody else? Daria (34:14) Well, I don't know if I should, if I should use the word should, because I always tell that listen to yourself, what you actually really want to do right now. And from there, you will get answers if you want to do art, or if you want to start this healing journey, or you want to build healthy relationships, whatever. Melanie Wilson (34:14) No. I don't know. Daria (34:44) Although, by the way, if you, when we talked earlier about, you know, this root chakra and building a foundation. So I think when you build this foundation, you will notice that actually everything aligns, like everything in your life, relationships and like career, like purpose, whatever, everything will align. And so, yeah, if I would say what to start with, I definitely would recommend meditation. For me, was a big difference also when I found the guys, the teachers, not simply doing it by myself. Yes, I do it now by myself, but at the very beginning, I found it very helpful when there was someone also helping me to understand better how to release those emotions, why they appear, you know. Now, when having this understanding, it's easier to do it on your own, all four. Even the healer needs sometimes a healer because there are blind spots, you know. And I find it normal. I find it actually very helpful. So yeah, definitely a meditation and whatever it can be, like focusing on your breath or if you can start with transcendental meditation or any other guided meditation, can be mindfulness meditation. Again, the person just feels what's right for them because some people find it helpful simply start dancing, and for them, it's their kind of meditation. Great. If you feel that it's right for you to do that. Like for me, when I was like going through that time of depression, I couldn't, you know, move a lot or like I didn't feel like... Melanie Wilson (36:26) Thank Daria (36:41) I would maybe force myself to walk, not like dancing or anything. So for me, meditation was helpful because through this visualisation, I let my energy flow and heal myself from the inside. And then I felt that my body started actually to want to move and dance. And sometimes I would allow myself, just like, okay. Melanie Wilson (36:45) Thank you. Thank Daria (37:07) I hear this music, and maybe I start intuitively, you know, just move. Again, there is no right or wrong movement or what you have specifically to do. You just feel that. So maybe the great thing to start with is simply to start feeling, know, start feeling yourself, what you want, what you feel like doing today. Yeah, how your body feels. Yeah. Melanie Wilson (37:21) Thank start feeling. Daria (37:37) Ha ha  

  Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.   Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events.       Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.   Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events. https://www.motivatecollective.com/join       ...   Special Opportunity for the Motivate Collective community 10% off your entire order at HumanCharger Support your energy, circadian rhythm, and confidence Code to be used at checkout: THEMOTIVATECOLLECTIVE As seen on The Motivate Collective Podcast Get your HumanCharger light therapy headset now.   https://humancharger.com/?dt_id=2858979   Show Notes:    keywords   CFO, business, music, self-care, planning, public speaking, Beethoven, finance, entrepreneurship, personal growth      summary   In this episode of the Motivate Collective podcast, Melanie Wilson interviews Anne Plummer, a fractional CFO with a rich background in music. Anne shares her journey from being a classical musician to navigating the world of finance, emphasising the importance of self-care and personal goals in business. She discusses the role of a fractional CFO in helping businesses look forward, the lessons learned from Beethoven's chaotic life, and the challenges of overcoming the tall poppy syndrome. The conversation highlights the significance of planning, the impact of self-doubt, and the necessity of having a support system in business.      takeaways   Anne Plummer's journey from music to finance showcases the importance of adaptability. Self-care is crucial for business success and personal happiness. Understanding financial metrics can empower business owners. Fear of success can hinder growth more than fear of failure. Planning is essential for navigating uncertainty in business. Public speaking can be a powerful tool for marketing services. Lessons from Beethoven illustrate the chaos of creativity and business. It's important to question decisions made out of fear. Having a support system can alleviate self-doubt. Embracing imperfection can lead to growth and learning.     Titles   From Music to Money: Anne Plummer's Inspiring Journey The CFO's Guide to Personal and Business Success      sound bites   "This is my very first podcast." "Sleep isn't a really important metric." "You need someone to help you through."     Chapters   00:00 Introduction to Anne's Journey 02:54 Transitioning from Music to Business 05:53 The Role of a Fractional CFO 08:17 Public Speaking and Overcoming Nerves 11:15 The Importance of Preparation 13:52 Breathing Techniques for Performance 16:33 Navigating Chaos: Lessons from Beethoven 19:30 Linking Music and Business 22:24 Understanding Financial Metrics 25:18 Cultural Attitudes Towards Business 28:37 The Tall Poppy Syndrome in Australia 33:29 Navigating the Pecking Order in Creative Fields 36:27 Overcoming Fear and Embracing Public Perception 40:07 The Dynamics of Community and Online Interactions 41:02 The Value of Self-Presentation in Different Professions 45:52 Understanding Debt: A Tool for Business Growth 47:54 The Importance of Planning in Business 51:46 Self-Doubt and the Journey of Entrepreneurship 57:30 Finding Reassurance in Vulnerability 01:04:12 Final Thoughts: Analysing Decisions and Embracing Growth   Transcript: Melanie Wilson (00:00) And welcome to the Motivate Collective podcast. It is so good to talk with you. How are you doing?   Anne Plummer (00:07) doing great. Thanks Melanie. Thanks so much for asking me on. This is my very first podcast.   Melanie Wilson (00:14) Is it really?   Anne Plummer (00:15) Yes.   Melanie Wilson (00:17) You have been doing other speaking, so we met in a speaking group and not the one I'm known for, a different one. So let's tell everybody what you do with speaking, with other work, what exactly you do.   Anne Plummer (00:31) Yeah, well, can I go back and just give a bit of background about where I'm from and what I do? It's all related to where I am today. So I started off, I grew up a little bit in the country in a one-room school or two-room school, actually and moved to the city when I was a young teenager and got involved in music and ended up quite quickly at the Conservatorium High School. And after that, I had a career in music, classical music. I was a freelance classical flute player, and I still play with the Penrith Symphony Orchestra, which I love very much. When I got to be, after a decade or so, a couple of decades, I, because of my rural background, I knew there was more things I wanted to explore with my life. So I did an MBA because I thought at that age I could, as they say, pivot and change career easier than starting off at the beginning and then working my way up in business. So I thought that'd be a nice thing to do.   It was really tough coming from a music background. Everyone else had actually there were quite a few doctors doing the course, which was interesting, but, you know, a lot of finance people, cetera, marketing people who were very comfortable in the business realm. And so I got through that and then worked in general management in music publishing.   And after a few years of that, I found it difficult because there's no particular one skill that you need for general management. So I decided to become an accountant. So I started off as a bookkeeper, then I became a CPA accountant. And then got broad experience, but with small companies, not with large multinational companies. And again, got restless. What do I want to do? So I became attracted to this becoming a fractional CFO. I had to Google it myself to see what a fractional CFO is not a well-known term, but a CFO is a Chief Financial Officer, and a fractional CFO means that I work for several different companies for a reduced amount of time. So spread across different clients. And a CFO really helps people in business look forward rather than backwards. So I help businesses, I try to get to the root of where they want to head. And I don't mean the business, I mean them personally, what their ultimate goal is, which, when it boils down to it, as happiness and peace basically, it might be covered and masked in a different... in different words, but basically that's what people want. And then do projections, and I help people sort of cut through the chaos of their lives. And it's really translating what the goals are into the language of business and what the business can do to move them forward to their ultimate goals. You know, a business can't do everything. It can't do all the heavy lifting.   And then we do meetings once a month. And what that does is that gives us space to just focus on those goals and make sure that every decision that's made moves them closer to their goals and not further away. And to rave on a bit more, I put the person first. So a lot of people talk about business people wanting to have great profits and all this amazing stuff, but neglecting themselves. I'm doing a talk in a few weeks at a convention, and the talk is going to be the metrics.   And one of the metrics is hours of sleep. It's not profit, it's not cash flow. Although we talk about that, and we talk about the effect on people of poor cash flow. You know, what's it doing to you? What are these business decisions doing to you personally? You might be making lots of money, and everything is fine, but you're just stressed out and...   I think sleep isn't a really important metric, but I've thought further about that, actually to take it further. It's not sleep because you might be worried about a whole bunch of things, and the business might be just one of those. So I've changed my slides for my presentation to look at how many hours are you worrying about your business every day? So that...   I think is something, you know, I don't expect you to quantify it exactly, but you know, that is probably cuts to the core of it much more effectively. And the reason I'm talking, speaking after performing in front of thousands of people over the decades, you'd think I'd be good at speaking, but actually, standing on stage and opening my mouth and words coming out, that's quite a different thing. So I've joined Toastmasters, and I've actually done okay with that. I only joined just over a year ago and won a little award already. That's for the best humorous, and so to promote my business, one of the things I'm not good at is marketing. So I've been advised speaking on stage is the way to go. That's the number one way to go for promoting my particular services, and I am so relieved, Melanie because that lets me off the hook from having to do Facebook ads and all this other stuff which just takes so much of my mental time, and I'm really bad at so I'm really happy to craft public speaking instead.   Melanie Wilson (07:49) I'll tell you what, that's why I love podcasts, because I never set out to just talk to a camera. It feels like I'm talking to myself. I had talked to groups for a long time, but I know that I need to do more of the social media. I know how it works now, but it's a whole extra thing. With a podcast, we're having a conversation, and then those little clips from the conversation will go onto social media. It's a great way to do the version of communicating that feels natural and still get something out of there.   Anne Plummer (08:23) Yeah, I think it's terrific. Yeah, that's great. I've been watching, doing my research on your podcasts, and they're really terrific.   Melanie Wilson (08:32) That is so sweet. You've had such a journey. We have so much to talk about. So.   Okay, we did meet in an association as well. One thing I'm curious about, because of course, I grew up in groups where people were starting from scratch with speaking kind of like what you're doing. And then I saw you at an association. And I'm wondering what difference have you seen? We'll look at all the other career journey sections in a moment because I think there's so much to learn from all of it. But what has been the difference you've seen between that starting out stage or phase and the mindsets that you've seen in some of the professional speakers that you met?   Anne Plummer (09:17) Yeah, so I guess for most people, getting on stage is terrifying. And for me, I think I've also got this to offer other people as well, because I've had such a long time performing music on stage. And to be honest, it's only been in the past five or six years that I've really conquered nerves.   And so it's been much easier for me to speak in public now and planning my first big presentation that's coming up because I know that I'm going to be nervous. That's just part of my brain protecting me. And I look confident, apparently, and that practising a lot is going to help train my brain so that when I got on stage, it will just flow smoothly. And the other technique I use when I'm coming up to a big performance, because I do some of the symphonies we play with Penrith Symphony Orchestra, are really demanding. So I know how to prepare really well for a big performance, a big scary performance. And what I do is I prepare so that I'm ready like two weeks before the actual performance. And then by the time the performance comes, my stress levels are going down all the time, and I'm planning for the day after the performance. How do I want to feel the day after the performance, not at the performance? Because once you get on stage for the performance, I let everything go and just let it happen because I've done all the preparation. If that makes sense.   So I don't have to worry when I'm actually doing it because I've done all the work beforehand. It sounds like I'm a real little goody two-shoes doing all this practice. But once I get on, you just let it go, and then it happens. Then, yeah, so that's my attitude.   Melanie Wilson (11:36) The letting it go, that reminds me of the flow state that people talk about, and I really believe once you get in front of people, you're just, you are in the moment to borrow that phrase from acting. I don't do that sort of thing, but borrowing that phrase, you're just doing the thing, and that's one of the things I love about any sort of performance, even if it's a talk. Have you experienced that in the orchestra and in talks where it's like your brain is switching off and you're just doing things, and you don't have to think as much once it's happening?   Anne Plummer (12:15) I wish that was true all the time, but I've got a too-active brain. So my fear today with talking to you is that you'd ask me a question and I'd just freeze and not think of my brain would freeze, and I wouldn't be able to think of a thing. And so I'm still worried about that, but I'm trying to because, you know, just trying to be in the moment. Yeah, but it's hard.   Melanie Wilson (12:41) That is so sweet. Are you feeling nervous about being on a podcast?   Anne Plummer (12:45) So but it's more like that I'll fail to say anything at all or answer the question properly or   Melanie Wilson (12:56) That's what I love about talking. You can't mess it up too much unless you say something outrageous or, you know, completely wrong. But I think you'd have to go to an extreme to really mess it up to some extent. And the main thing is I have learned, I learned in theory early on adapt to the audience. But in some ways, I was often in front of similar audiences, but it was only later on when I saw country groups, and coastal groups and city groups, corporates. You really do need the variety. So I think that that's the other thing that could maybe change. And for this setting with the podcast, we really do focus on looking after ourselves when we're doing great work. And that's where I think so much of your work can give people insight. So that's one way we can just make the most of the conversation. So even you had a long career doing woodwind music, sorry, how long were you... You're still doing that now, playing in an orchestra, but you're doing that for work for how long?   Anne Plummer (14:04) Oh, well, I guess I started playing when I, mean, performing when I was 16, 17. And then by the time I was getting towards my thirties, I was really restless, and I had done everything I wanted to do. And all I could see in my future was more of the same. And teaching a lot of my friends, you know, they teach. So you perform and teach, but I never liked teaching much. And not that I wasn't good at it. It's just whenever I got it booked for something for a gig, I dumped the students to the gig instead. So I know not very good, is it. So, you know, playing was my main thing, but I really was bored, and you know I'd get these great long-running gigs, and I'd just be, I just couldn't do it. You know long runs of musicals and things like that. I was absolutely going up the wall after three months of Les Misérables. You know I just couldn't take you know eight shows a week. That was fine, but I was just bored.   Melanie Wilson (15:23) Was it?   So it's really intense having a career in music. And of course, everybody knows that music careers often don't pay that well either. So, but you were essentially having a decade and a half of a music career legitimately. But within that, something I wanted to ask about is you would have learned a lot about breathing doing that. And I think that people take for granted what everybody can learn from musicians about breathing because I basically really badly attempted to learn music when I was a teenager and I didn't end up as good as you were at all but I translated the breathing part to speaking where you need to slow down and doing a talk can have phrases just like in music you literally catch a breath at the end of a phrase I'm wondering did you find that taking the pace and the breathing, anything like that helped with your nervousness or keeping things steady when you were performing.   Anne Plummer (16:33) I wish I could tell my younger self about that. Obviously, you know, I got through ⁓ quite demanding, physically demanding sonatas and things like that. But now I understand a bit and actually quite recently, I understand a bit more about the power of breathing to settle yourself down, settle down your brain.   Yeah, and I think that would have been extremely helpful when I was doing those big, scary performances of quite demanding solo works, because I would have understood that the nervousness that I felt would have been relieved a lot by deeper breathing and also planning, because my just to go off on a side note know my main huge recital at the end of my four-year degree I chose the biggest works and my teacher said to me are you sure you want to be doing that and I've got a very rusty recording of me performing and you can hear me just getting more and more exhausted like I got through I got a high mark and everything but you can hear me just going towards the end, you know, because I'd chosen such demanding pieces to play. So I think I know more now than I did back then.   Melanie Wilson (18:08) One of the lessons we can learn from that is if you overstretch yourself, you can end up exhausted doing anything.   Anne Plummer (18:16) Yeah, that's right. And through the ambition, you're taking on too much, really. Yeah.   Melanie Wilson (18:23) I think I can relate to what you're describing because one of the things that I even saw in your career journey is you get the itch, you get restless. And I think there's something in those of us who are creative in some way or just fascinated by work, we want to try something else. And it sounds like even when you were doing one thing, music for a decade and a half, it was the challenge of a particular piece of work. And so it is that desire to push yourself, and then so going to finance, though, let's ask about that. Because that's polar opposites, you would think people say music is very mathematical, but you're essentially going from something creative to something very mathematical, even though you're now talking about how people can look after themselves in business.   I see a bit of a laugh. How did that leap match up, or how did that match with your personality?   Anne Plummer (19:30) Well, it's interesting, Melanie, because for most of my post-MBA careers, I've tried to keep the two worlds very separate. And now at this stage, I'm bringing them together. So I'm talking about in this particular presentation I'm making, I'm talking about Beethoven. So just to, you know, let the cat out of the bag. And Beethoven's really interesting because the whole thing is about chaos and how to navigate through chaos in your life, and what the business can do to navigate through that chaos. And you think Beethoven, wow, what a genius. You think everything would have been easy for him.   And in fact, I've been reading about him. It's the opposite, absolute chaos of his life. And he started becoming deaf when he was in his late 20s. And by the time he was in his 30s, he was completely deaf. So how did he perform? How did he compose these amazing pieces?   And when you see what he went through, it's a lot of what we have to deal with in our lives as well. So he had, he was extremely messy with his, actually, you might be able to see in the background here, a framed picture. It's actually his handwriting on a score, and it's absolute mess. It's crossed out, it's scribbled out. He's digging through the paper, and you think, this is not going to sound any good. And so what I'm doing in my talks is then I'm then playing the piece that is shown on the picture, and it's this beautiful cello sonata. So how did he get through? I mean, he had probably ADHD. He was, he had irritable bowel syndrome. There's, know, you look back at the facts, and that's what he would probably was dealing with. He was had anxiety had depression. He was extremely his personal hygiene was terrible. And he was very untidy and messy. He had he was an orphan quite early on. And so he had a lot to deal with. And plus, the number one thing you think you'd need was his hearing, and that was taken from him. So how did he get through? Well, one thing was technical ability. He knew his scales, his chords, he knew how instruments combined together to make a great sound. He knew his harmony and melody. And he had templates to work with, you know, like sonata form or symphony form.   But the number one thing he could hear in his head, the music. So in a sense, when he became completely deaf, that was no barrier to him producing amazing masterpieces at all, because he could really just focus in. And so he knew what it was going to sound like pretty accurately. so after he became completely deaf, he wrote   his sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth symphonies. So that's how amazing he is. So I will link that to my work of, know, in... So I'm a conduit between normal people and finance people. So the technical ability is just double-entry accounting, right? Debit SQL credits, that's...   It's that easy, I'm afraid. And then templates, we've got, you know, balance sheets, profits and loss. So it's my job to convert my client's vision into these financial templates and project forward into the future so that they can move towards their goals. But the forecasts I produce are linked. So the balance sheet and profit and loss is linked. And then from that, you put in these decisions you have to make, say, employing people, you put it into the model, and it projects forward what your cash flow is going to be, what your profits going to be, etc. So that gives the client a vision of the future, a graphical representation of what the future will look like, which is just like reading a piece of music. That's a great graphical representation of what it will sound like, if that makes sense. So I'm using the genius of Beethoven to inspire us to, you know, take action through our businesses.   Melanie Wilson (25:05) What I'm learning from that is you can simply map out the likely outcome based on what you're currently doing, and it doesn't have to be complicated.   Anne Plummer (25:18) No, that's right. will. And part of what I do is telling you how to talk to your accountant or whoever this person is going to be that's actually doing the forecasts, because they are technically challenging, you know, to do these forecasts. And so, you know, you have to use software. People say, yeah, I'll just link together some Excel spreadsheets. But, you know, that's full of hazards. So it's helping convert those ideas into, and I use rolling forecasts, so as we meet once a month, we look at what's happened, the reality, so the culmination of all those big and little decisions that you make, and that shows up in your profit and loss, your cash flow and your balance sheet.   And then we adjust going forward. So we roll forward an extra month, and then we stand back, and this Beethoven did this as well. He'd write and write and write, and then he'd stand back and say, does this still make sense? Is my musical idea still making sense? And that's what we do in business as well with the forecast.   Melanie Wilson (26:40) This is really crucial because these days everybody has a creative idea, or people want to make something. It could be anything. And what we need to figure out is, okay, what do I need to do now? And also, you're saying that when things will get complicated, talk to an accountant, don't DIY. I'm getting the impression that it does help if people do find an accountant.   Anne Plummer (27:07) Yep. But the thing is, Melanie, most accountants won't be able to do this work because their business is not really set up for this. I mean, you will find the odd one, so it's knowing what questions to ask the accountant and, you know, just to be very clear about what you want. I want this forecast going into the future. And then I'm going to teach just a couple of metrics for the people to go to their accountant and say, want you to I want to see the gross margin, for instance. Now, I'm going to teach what a gross margin is. And a gross margin is different from a net margin or gross profit percentage is different from a net profit percentage. So if I can get technical for a moment, net profit percentage is, all your income less all your expenses, right? And that gives you your net profit. But a gross profit is just your income from the essence of what you do. So, for instance, you're a lawyer. So it's the income you make from actually doing the law. It's not bank interest or anything else. It's just that. And putting that with the expenses that just relate to producing that outcome of law. So if you think of a, it's easier, I think, to think of a factory because a factory, you know, they produce an object. So what are the expenses that make that object directly? It's nothing else. It's not rent or anything else. So even though it's a service industry, I think it's a really helpful way of getting to the essence of what you do. And if you can get a gross margin happening, for that, that's appropriate for the industry, then you know that everything else can be fixed in a way. But if you can just get the appropriate amount of gross profit, that means you can scale your business much more easily. Just to explain gross profit once a little bit more. So say, you know, you're sole practitioner, and you're getting great sales, but you're taking, but your expenses, so your sales might be a million dollars, but your expenses relating to those sales are 999,000. You've got like an almost zero gross margin, and you're working 80 hours a week completely unsustainable, um so but if you can get   Anne Plummer (30:07) People get like it's finances. You can get easily diverted away with other stuff, know, rental costs or just all this other stuff, know, staff Christmas party, lavish staff Christmas parties is one. But if you can get the essence of what you do right, then, in a sense, with some guidance, the rest really falls into… so it's a cultural thing as well because when I was a musician, well, professional musician, you know, there's great shame in doing businessy things. It, you know, it sort of meant that you weren't good at playing, and that's like completely untrue. But I think for service people, it can be the same thing as well.   that being a successful, you know, a business person.   You think, no, that's not me. No, no, I'm a lawyer. I'm this, I'm that. But what I'm saying is self-care is part of a successful business model.   Melanie Wilson (31:18) That is the mindset so many people are overcoming, and I'm glad that you addressed that. The performance side and how a lot of people who put on a show, it could be music, but I've heard this mentality from some people in the yoga world. Apparently, that space had this mindset a while ago, and I came from a speaking space where nobody told me at a young age I should value my performance in this way. There was none of that. I was doing so much for free. And I think that the right people will respect that you do have to look after yourself, and you do have to value what you do. So I think what you described with your experience in music, it translates to so many industries. And I have seen that it's worse perhaps in Australia, or at least there's a flavour of it in Australia with the tall poppy syndrome, and people want to... You think so?   Anne Plummer (32:25) absolutely.   Melanie Wilson (32:27) Okay. I'm so curious then about what have you... I'm curious about what you've seen with the tall poppy syndrome, especially because you were around performers. And of course, you're playing an instrument, but whether it's that or other people in your shows were at the centre of the stage and still probably dealing with a tall poppy syndrome. So I'm wondering where Aussies have... been in spaces where they were public-facing and trying to not be tall poppies, and where do think it's heading now?   Anne Plummer (33:01) I think people understand a lot more. And I guess in a way, for me, it's always been a little bit of water off a duck's back. And I think also trying to bring people down can be just people surviving, people, I'm not justifying it, but... I've kind of ignored it in a way. Yeah, and also there's a pecking order in every profession. Certainly in music, there's a pecking order. know, violinists think they're the best. Flute players think they're the best, so.   Melanie Wilson (33:41) Survive it.   Anne Plummer (33:58) There's this thing, the violin, it's closest to the human voice. And then you hear flute. That's the closest to the, what's so great about being closest to the human voice. Yeah, there's picking orders everywhere. And I think this year, I'm like, have yearly projects. So this year is really cutting through fear, and it's a human instinct to worry about what people will think of you. And that's at the root of a lot of nervousness, know, especially public-facing. And just to jump in and do it anyway, cut through the fear, and people are gonna think what they're going to think. And just to realise that that's just part of being in public.   Melanie Wilson (34:51) It is, this is so reassuring, and I truly hope that a lot of performers, a lot of people with public personal brands can see this because we are really identifying that you need to let go of what people think of you, or everybody needs to let go of other people's opinions, but also just do the things. The pecking order, I think, is an encouraging lesson to learn from because it has been called different things. I described so many industries as political. And although I observed years ago, actual politics, I found that some other communities felt more political than politics. And in some ways, I think it's what it's what you're describing a little bit. The, this instrument is more my experience of it was   Maybe I was in the wrong space when I was... and I'll be careful and loving towards my upbringing, but... but when I was in my early 20s, there were people twice my age calling me too young, even though I'd learned so much and I'd basically done the learning then that they were doing it that age. There was a lot of that, but then now I'm not a 20-year-old TikToker, you know, you're always something and not something else. And we really have to make peace with knowing we do what we do really well. And it doesn't mean that someone else's specialty is more or less, right?   Anne Plummer (36:27) Exactly. I think that's so interesting and correct because back then, I mean, it's what people's motivation is too. And a lot of it could be, as my mother would say, they're just jealous. And that's, yeah, that happens quite a bit. I mean, what's the motivation for trying to bring you down? It could be the envious that they weren't able to do that at that young age, like you were able to.   Melanie Wilson (36:53) My goodness, I think that's probably... I'm going to assume that that can describe why some people are trying to tear me down. I have to be so vague right now to be careful, but I think that in general, personally or professionally, someone can try to bring you down at any moment. And if you're saying in your diverse life experience that it's often that someone is feeling jealous or wishing they could be doing what you're doing,   I can actually pinpoint moments where that is really aligned with what you're describing. So we really have to make peace with knowing a lot of people who are public-facing say that if people are reacting to you, it means they're noticing you at all. You're not invisible.   Anne Plummer (37:44) Yeah. And Melanie, I think, because I've lived through quite a few decades now and been through lots of technology changes. We talk about the online community. I tell you what, the real community that can be rugged, that can be, and that's been going on for millennia, right? Having to be part of a community. I tell you what, I live on the edge of Sydney. So, I live part of why we've got such poor connectivity today is that I live on the edge of a national park in a very small village. And I tell you what, those village meetings, they can be rough. You know, and I think it's just part of   Melanie Wilson (38:30) Hold on. You're in a village, you're in the mountains? Where abouts are   Anne Plummer (38:35) Well, Linden, which is sort of mid-mountains.   Melanie Wilson (38:46) I was just going to add it's hard with the internet connection, but we need to explain to the people who are listening from somewhere else in the world. The way to explain where you are is people are going to have a holiday, go to Sydney and see perhaps Bondi Manly, CBD, city centre. This is not what we are describing. You go what an hour, hour and a half through Sydney, through all the and then you get to some mountains and villages.   That's what we are describing. It's the West of the West of the West out there. Is that how to say   Anne Plummer (39:20) Correct. And there's some beautiful things up here. That's the thing. It's, you know, it's sort of a, come to see the amazing views up here. So, yeah. But I think this nastiness online, I think there's not too much difference between that and, you know, small English villages of, you know, a few hundred years ago. I think just got to build internal strength and not worry about it too much because they have a terrible negative effect on people.   Melanie Wilson (40:07) So, have you seen those sorts of village mentalities literally, where you are?   Anne Plummer (40:13) I think it's everywhere. It can be anywhere, but yeah, I think it's just part of life, living in groups of people.   ⁓ yeah.   Melanie Wilson (40:28) It's a-   Yeah.   Anne Plummer (40:31) But it's interesting being in the financial world and being in the music world because people's attitudes to both is interesting. If I introduce myself as a musician, they go, how interesting. Tell me what you play. That's amazing. If I say, I'm an accountant, I've had people turn and walk away. So I think that's very funny.   ⁓ dear.   Melanie Wilson (41:04) It's about how you frame yourself. It's interesting that you bring that up because we all have to learn about how to present ourselves and how to describe ourselves these days. I think I struggled with that a little bit as well because I had to almost bring together a few things I was interested in, basically.   I got known as just a speaker, but then it made it really hard to get involved in doing other things, being just only a speaker. And I think what you're describing could also show how people value your work monetarily to some extent. It's fascinating because they'll be interested in the creative things, but you're probably building more of a business doing the financial side.   And they might not see that there's a lot of putting a puzzle together, and there's a lot of creativity in having to promote yourself when you are a business, even if it's in a technical field. I think people take that for granted. didn't do a lot in marketing with finance, but I worked with technical industries. Like, I actually did some writing for software as a service for a marketing agency for a little bit, did things like that. And it was like, it sounds so technical. Also, many, many years ago, I did some marketing for people who made textbooks and courses for people who installed solar panels. So they were very ultra. I can't remember most of the tech side of any of that, but it was the story behind anything. And I   I adore what you're doing with your speaking and your storytelling because you're taking something very numbers based of business and finance, and you're bringing this self-care story into it because looking after yourself that's an end goal of any field, including the technical ones.   Anne Plummer (43:12) Yeah, yeah, I think people are talking about it more and more and it's, I just wonder how many businesses fail because number one, people don't have a safe space to look at these forecasts and see what a good business decisions to make along the way. You know, the people that need it the most don't get it. Yeah, and I think there's this persona thing about being a successful business person. Look at how much money I've made without really seeing the effect that it's having on them. I don't care who you are, whether you're running a multimillion dollar business or you're just working for yourself. That has to be factored into any decisions. And I talk about, you know, a decision you make, typically employing a new person, of course, step one is that your cash flow will plummet. But if you know that it will take up to 10 months for that person to either bring in more income or release you from so many hours a week work, you can see the value starting to rise and that you've got short-term pain but the long-term gain is bigger. So that's what I help quantify. Is the long-term gain more than the short-term pain? And what your attitude to that is, because if you make that decision, when you see the cash plummet, you'll go, no, I won't take on a new person. But you will make a different decision because you know, like later on, if you can see the value is probably going to happen, then all you've got to deal with is the short-term cash deficit, which you've got lots of levers to solve that. You could get a short-term loan. You could borrow off family or friends or, you know, there's a myriad of ways to short to just get through that dip. But always thinking what's the effect on you? Because, yeah, like even if you take on debt, there's some people who just get stressed out no matter how little it is, the idea of debt is just not on. So that all has to be part of the model, really in a sense.   Melanie Wilson (45:52) That's something worth exploring for a second. I stumbled upon a whole lot of videos from Dave Ramsey and there are some people who never ever wanted to have any debt and I know that it's not good to drown in debt and struggle to sort it out but have you seen that a healthy debt can help some people?   Anne Plummer (46:13) definitely. Yeah. Because if you've got it, and this is why the model is so fantastic, because, you know, if you can secure this amount of debt at four per cent or whatever it is, you can see that it makes sense. It makes sense to do it. Otherwise, you might miss out on the opportunity, for instance. But. Yes, because Dave Ramsey preaches no personal debt whatsoever.   But business debt is a different thing. It can be okay, for sure. But it has to be managed and planned for.   Melanie Wilson (46:58) Fair enough. It needs to be planned out. So whatever you're doing, do some planning. That's something we need to remind ourselves of in an era where there's of course a lot of instant gratification and hopefully anyone who's running a business will be planning ahead. I will assume that it's sometimes hard to plan in the very early stages. I know for me, I... was starting to do some speaking business last year and that's starting up again now. And I know it's so hard to look ahead and say, okay, how do I think this business is even going to look months from now? There is, have you seen, there is quite an element of guessing and is your advice to be in the moment and see, okay, what is there now? How do you, how do you cope with predicting something that feels unpredictable?   Anne Plummer (47:56) That is so true. And I think part of it is making short term decisions out of fear and uncertainty or trying to resolve that uncertainty. And that may or may not be in your best interests long term. So that is the hard thing. I think planning is business planning is number one sounds really boring.   And number two, you can't do it by yourself. You need someone to help you through, even though it's not that, it's not really that hard, but you really need someone to hold your hand and step you through. And also that helps keep you accountable as well. So, yeah.   Melanie Wilson (48:46) You do. You need someone to be with you. It sounds like it's partly getting someone else's perspective and simply getting out of your own head, letting someone be a voice of reason for some of these decisions.   Anne Plummer (49:02) Yeah, that helps or more show them. So what I love about forecasting is you can put in any wackadoodle idea that you might have as a business owner and see if it actually works, you know, and I think a lot of businesses would be saved or not even started if there was just that little bit of planning to see. I was just thinking of an experience about this, making decisions out of fear and uncertainty, which I do all the time and that this year I'm going to stop doing that as much as I possibly can. I was recently very lucky. spent a month in Europe, and I was in Switzerland. Sounds very glamorous, but it has been a long time coming planning for this trip. And I was on a train by myself heading west to the next town I was going to visit. And suddenly on the train it said, this train terminates in Hamburg and I absolutely froze because Hamburg's in northern Germany, right? And I love Germany, but I didn't want to go to Hamburg that day. And so I completely panicked, and I thought, oh no, like now I'm really not certain I'm on the right train. What do I do? Okay, I'm just going to get off the train at the next stop, which is silly really, isn't it? So I thought, right, I've got to get off, and that'll just, at least I'll be somewhere not heading to Germany. You know, I don't want to get off too late and end up, you know, eight hours away in Hamburg. So luckily, while my brain was whirring trying to solve this problem, the leaderboard listed all the stations between there and Hamburg, and of course, my station was there. So, like I'd gone through all this panic for nothing and if I'd got off the train, who knows where I'd be? I might be still stuck in Switzerland, which would be a terrible tragedy.   Melanie Wilson (51:16) They're really...   I love that story. I love that story so much. We all have a moment where we think, I think things are going to be this bad. And honestly, I'm seeing myself in you so much because, personally, I think part of it is that I have moments of just being a delicate, fragile woman. And I'm willing to say that.   We live in a culture where it's assumed everything we do will be rational, robotic, and utilitarian, but I don't think we really function like that. And it doesn't mean we're less intelligent because you do great work, I do the things I do, and yet, yes, you've done so much in music, you're guiding people's businesses, it's good.   Anne Plummer (52:06) Great work.   Melanie Wilson (52:14) We're doing these things and yet we'll have moments of just this panic and especially when something is approaching of this destination is literally coming up then you will be wondering do I not have long to make a sensible decision I need to think and act quickly especially when there are unknowns I found that when I didn't know what was happening it was harder for me to make a decision so before you saw that leader of board you were just guessing that's such a metaphor for life. Hope you can put that story into a speech one day. Seriously. Because we all have a moment where we can't see the leaderboard and we're trying to figure out what's going to happen next. And we're doing the best we can. It seems like step one is to not panic. If we are setting up a business, then that is really crucial. Try to see the leaderboard somehow.   Think so?   Anne Plummer (53:13) Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And I think, well, we've got to balance when I mean, self-doubt. I don't know about you, like my self-doubt is ridiculous. And the amount of time I waste because I've set things up well. And then I think, is that right? No, that can't be right. And go back and check. I mean, it's ridiculous. And this has got to stop this year.   This year, Melanie. It's crazy, but also that studying a new business it's like a tragedy because you've got this, you know, you've got all the energy, you've got this fantastic idea, and you've got no way of mapping out the likelihood of what's going to possibly happen, and you pour everything into this.   Melanie Wilson (53:42) Yeah   Anne Plummer (54:10) And all your creativity, and it can be a disaster because you know, doing business plans it's extremely boring and dull. So you do need someone to help you put your vision and keep you excited and motivated, and get excited when you see the plan. Oh yes, this is probably going to work, or how about we do this six months later rather than right now, and that's you're going to have a better outcome. Yeah, I think that's.   And then your self-doubt will go down because I think that can be a very number one time-consuming, anxiety-producing. And the thing I learned about travelling by myself is that, you know, we're really good at surviving, actually, let go and just go for it. You know, all the crazy things I worried about before the trip, none of them turned out to be an issue. So, you know, for instance, you know, I was in minus 17 degrees at one stage, and I'd bought this $89 coat from Anaconda, and I thought, this is not going to be good enough. And it was fine. My $89 coat was enough in minus 17, all these stupid things we worry about needlessly.   Melanie Wilson (55:51) You look ahead, and you think you won't be okay, and then somehow you are okay. I think that we need to surround ourselves with people who reassure each other. For me personally, I know that months ago I was in an environment where I was surrounded by uncertainty, and I wasn't, I think the podcast was the main place, whereas hearing things you are saying of just have some faith in yourself, and for you, with that travel, just doing it, getting out there, you did find peace. You didn't find reassurance from yourself, but it was, I think it's partly environmental. You were in a place where the solutions were in front of you, and you were okay. You're on a train. weren't in the middle of nowhere, not on a train. You had a way to get from A to B. You were okay enough. So that's a part of it. Put yourself in a situation where you have access to the solutions, but there's self-doubt. It's amazing how this is what we are coming back to seriously. And before doing this recording, was just having one of those days. I was curled up, thinking I'm just failing at everything. I...   This is why I sent you a link for the recording at the last second ride on 12, because I needed a moment to just feel sorry for myself and then get up and do another recording. So I don't know if anyone who performs or presents is like that. Give yourself a moment to feel terrible and then get on the damn stage.   Anne (57:30) Yeah, that is absolutely brilliant, Melanie. I'm just so, I'm just so amazed by what you've just said. That's incredible. Yeah. Good for you.   Melanie Wilson (57:39) Why?   Anne Plummer (57:43) Well, just feeling, were you feeling down? Like, just a bit down, or I'm hopeless at this. And someone said to me once, if something is worth doing, it's worth doing badly. And that's coming into this podcast today. You know, I was like pretty nervous and then right at, you know, one minute to 12, I thought, let's say I'm hopeless at it. Fine. We can all have a laugh later about it. You know, what's the worst thing that can happen? And that you were sort of having your own sort of moment before the podcast as well. That's really funny, actually, that we were both suffering.   Melanie Wilson (58:30) Now, we're both sorry for interrupting. We're both having our doubts at the same time and not telling each other. I don't get nervous about the podcast anymore. think I've done more than 55 of these since August last year. So it's been a bunch. felt sorry that it had been slowing down a little bit. It had been sort of weekly instead of daily, and I had to get over it and realise, okay, fine. I think some of the best podcasts started off weekly. It means I'm not   Anne Plummer (58:47) Wow.   Melanie Wilson (58:59) an obsessed fanatic, but I can be if I need to. But, you know, I think that I was having all the worries about everything else in life. And I just, I just kept thinking I need my whole life to be perfect. I don't know. It's in my own head. And I think the best thing you can do, I, this is the addiction of the podcast for me. It gets me out of my head. think everybody should do a podcast. Everybody should get on a stage because   To some extent, you're at least, you're not pondering your whole life when you need to just focus on telling a story to other people. It's, it's brilliant. You just get past all of those things. So knowing that you felt nervous about doing the podcast itself. Look, they're great fun. I know you could go on so many more podcasts, and the value that you are bringing to really reassure that is, is that you've been guiding people on what to do when they're figuring out the basic finances, especially starting a business. I learned something from you that, okay, the accountant won't do everything that you're describing, but people need to know the right questions to ask an accountant. And hearing this from a creative who was a musician for years, it's reassuring because when we have a creative brain, it can be even more of a leap to look at all those numbers sides, and we need to just catch our breath. I think a lot of us feel nervous about the numbers, the ways that other people might feel nervous about speaking, and we need to just reassure ourselves and to do it anyway.   Anne Plummer (1:00:38) Yeah, exactly right, Melanie. And the thing is, when you look, I'm in a unique position because I've come late to accounting. So most people do, you know, straight from school to university and into an accounting firm. Well, I've gone the opposite way. My journey's been the opposite. And I think that is in a unique position. And I've been thinking about this, pardon if this is a bit rambling, but trying to put together the slides for this talk I'm giving, I wanted people to really understand what I'm raving on about with talking about cash flow and margin percentages, right, gross margin. And I was trying to explain it in the slides from an accounting point of view. But no, I've got to be on the other side of the fence with the audience, not the accounting side. And I can make the bridge between normal people and accountants, if that makes sense. What do the figures actually mean? What's gross profit? Gross profit's a number, but it's a percentage of the essence of what you do, right? It's the thing you make, the main thing for you, it's the impact you have on your audiences and what money you get from speaking in front of audiences and also what you have to spend to get you onto that stage to talk to audiences, and that's the essence of what you do. So that's what gross margin means.   Melanie Wilson (1:02:28) Could actually use that as an example, and we'll wind up in five minutes. I gave it a little bit longer because the internet has been a bit funky, and I'll edit a couple of things out. But as a speaker, and I think a lot of people are forming something where they might be doing events, communities, retreats, all these things. So there are various forms of this. So my example would probably be that the gross, let me know if I'm getting this right, the gross would be that I will get the train to the location, and then the net might be that I used a website platform and so on to promote myself leading up to it. Is that the difference?   Anne Plummer (1:03:10) That is exactly right, Melanie. So now you're good at numbers. That's great.   Melanie Wilson (1:03:17) The internet, the internet is going to see that you taught me numbers. Thanks.   Anne Plummer (1:03:24) It's that straightforward.   Melanie Wilson (1:03:25) That's reassuring. And I like how literal it was because I heard a long time ago that someone explained net and gross to Richard Branson. And of course it was the old something about nets and fish and the ocean. And I think, okay, great story, but how does that translate? They could have said, okay, if Branson has a gym, the gross will be the dumbbells here, and the net is the other things. It could have been explained differently. I feel like the way you have explained this, you're going to be able to teach so many people because these are the practical things. And if everybody can know that we can handle the practical things, and that's how to put it. For those who like the practicalities more than pieces of paper, we will still be okay.   Anne Plummer (1:04:18) Exactly right, Melanie.   Melanie Wilson (1:04:19) And thank you so much for your time and your courage. I'm wondering if there is anything else you would like to teach the listeners as we wind up.   Anne Plummer (1:04:30) Ooh, I think the biggest thing is taking pause and analysing your decisions just generally in life and see which ones are stopping you doing things. I think actually just enclosing fear of success can be more powerful than fear of failure. Just quickly, I'll tell you what I mean fear of growing your business because you think gosh that'll mean I'm going to have to employ all these people, how am going to manage? I'm not an experienced manager; it's all too much, I won't grow my business. Rather than having a look at well, I'll employ people that support me in my business that will free me up with my time and my energy. Questioning those decisions you make out of fear that are stopping you from doing what you really want to do. I guess is my closing shot.   Melanie Wilson (1:05:38) And thank you so much for being on the show.   Anne Plummer (1:05:40) Thanks Melanie, it's been really great. Thank you so