Bad Mothers Podcast

Shelly Sharon helps women who’ve been around the block with healing unpack the way a challenging relationship with their mother still holds them back today, so they can thrive in their life and career. Shelly is a trauma-informed, certified Hakomi therapist. After a childhood marked by neglect and abandonment, she turned her story on its head and built a life of purpose and healing, where she’s committed to helping women to heal their mother wound.She joined me on the podcast to discuss her own experience with sibling estrangement, what it was like growing up in an isolated, small family unit, and about her practice helping women thrive after unpacking complex mother-daughter relationships. You can learn more about her work from her website, https://www.shellysharon.com Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Last week, the long-awaited anthology, No Contact, Writers on Estrangement, was published. And lucky for us, we have its editor, the lovely Jenny Bartoy, as my guest for this episode. Jenny and I talk about her own estrangement story, as well as her vision for this anthology and the process of compiling and editing a wide variety of essays on the experience of estrangement from all sides.Jenny Bartoy is a French American editor and critic. Her writing appears in several anthologies and in such publications as The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, Under the Gum Tree, Chicago Review of Books, The Rumpus, and others. She holds a master’s degree from Columbia University and lives in Tacoma, Washington.Along with the anthology, Jenny has written recently for Literary Hub with a reading list on estrangement, and Open Secrets with her own estrangement story.No Contact, Writers on Estrangement, is available now from Catapult Press. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This week we hear from another generous person who responded to my call for stories of sibling estrangement. Jaime has been estranged from her younger brother, sister and both parents for several years. As she explains here, she learned from these relationships how to be a better mother to her daughter. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I am a huge book nerd, so I am always looking for ways to incorporate books into my work here on the podcast, and on the Bad Mothers substack. Speaking of, on Tuesday April 28, you can join the book club chat for Katherine Angel’s Daddy Issues live on Substack.I think books — including and maybe especially novels — have the power to teach us so much about ourselves and the world around us. They help us begin to understand what it’s like to be in another’s shoes. And I think this can be true when we’re experiencing estrangement, too.I was entranced by The Original Daughter, by Jemimah Wei. It’s set in Singapore in the very recent past and centers on a small family, in particular two sisters who become estranged. I’m delighted that I got to speak to Jemimah about her beautiful novel, which is now out in paperback so if you haven’t read it yet, go get it! We avoid spoilers here as best we can. Buy The Original Daughter.Jemimah Wei was born and raised in Singapore and splits her time between Singapore and the United States. She is a National Book Foundation 5 Under 35 Honoree, winner of the William Van Dyke Short Story Prize, and formerly held the Wallace Stegner Fellowship and Felipe P. De Alba Fellowship at Stanford University and Columbia University respectively. The Original Daughter, debuted at #1 on The Straits Times bestseller list, is a Good Morning America Book Club pick, and a New York Times Editors’ Choice. The Original Daughter won the Country Award for the Chommanard International Women’s Literary Award, was longlisted for the Dublin Literary Award, and named a Best Book of Spring by TIME, Foreign Policy, Harper’s Bazaar, Elle, Vogue, and more. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I put out a call on a few social media support groups for people willing to share their sibling estrangement stories. I’ve heard from a lot of estranged adults, and read plenty of stories. This one is similar to in many ways — we can always see patterns in abusive and neglectful families — but Sharon’s story also feels especially cruel. Her resilience and thoughtfulness about this experience is truly inspiring. I’m grateful to everyone willing to share their stories in the hope that it helps even a single listener to feel less alone.Please be aware that this episode contains discussion of physical, emotional and sexual abuse. Listen with care. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This week, my book club partner and Family Estrangement Substack author Tam Stevens and I are discussing the novel, Mother in the Dark by Kayla Maiuri. We read it for the Estrangement Book Club, and since it includes parental and sibling estrangement, I thought it would fit nicely with this season. The novel was published in 2022 and is narrated by a twenty-something living in New York City, who has been out of contact with her parents and younger sisters for several years. When she gets a call because something has happened back home, she recalls a troubled childhood and struggles with whether to return the call or stay away.*This discussion is focused mainly on the estrangement dynamics at play within the novel, and we tried to avoid any major spoilers, but there are some included in this conversation.Tam and I will discuss Daddy Issues by Katherine Angel on April 28 — live on Substack at 2PM EDT/7PM BST. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This season, we’re taking a closer look at sibling estrangement — how it happens, what it feels like, and how to move forward.When I put out a call for those willing to talk about their experiences, I received several generous replies from people who genuinely wanted to help others by sharing their stories.This week, we hear from April.Learn more about Together Estranged here. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Sandra Ann Miller is a certified Happiness, Relationship, and Health & Wellness coach, and Trauma-Informed Abundance Coach. But she doesn’t like to call herself a coach. She is The Happyist, and helps people to cultivate happiness from within. This is something she’s had to do for herself, too, having grown up in an emotionally abusive family, from which she has been estranged for many years.Today she tells us the ways her relationship with her younger brother changed throughout childhood due to her mother’s treatment of them both, and how and when she decided to cut ties with her family.You can find her on The Happyist Substack, a paid community for those who want to get unstuck and grow their holistic happiness in an affordable way. She also hosts the Happy Rebel Podcast, the place to “get happy and disrupty,” which is focused on undoing anger and fear. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

In keeping with the tradition of inviting one of my family members on the podcast each season, today I’m speaking to my dad. I truly value the trust and honesty that my guests offer in this space, so it’s important to me to share aspects of my personal story, too. My dad has three of his own siblings, and I remember him telling me throughout my childhood that the only constant in my life would be my sisters. Given that my mother often tried to divide me and my sisters, I feel fortunate that we managed to stick together. I wanted my dad to tell me where this idea about siblings came from, why he wanted so many kids, and what it’s like to be a father to all daughters.As you will see, my dad has different ideas to my own — in particular on the destructibility of the patriarchy. I really value the relationship we’ve established, in which we respect each other’s views even when we don’t agree. This is a stark comparison to many estranged kids and their parents, and I am lucky to have this with my dad even while I can’t have a relationship with my mother. This is to say that some of the ideas he espouses are unusual for the Bad Mothers space, but I think it’s a good reminder that as estranged kids, we are not averse to disagreements; we are averse to mistreatment. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I decided the best way to kick off a season focused on sibling estrangement was to learn the dynamics at play in a narcissistic family system. Who better to talk to than Dr. Katie McKenna.Katie an accredited psychotherapist who specialises in parentification & emotional abuse.She works on breaking generational trauma, so women can have healthier relationships, by recognising everyday toxic and narcissistic communication patterns or behaviours that have become normalised, particularly in families. She is accredited by the Irish Association of Counselling & Psychotherapy.She’s a fast talker who is full of fascinating and helpful information for estranged adults like myself — so hold onto your hats!You can contact Katie or learn more about her parenting course at https://www.katiemckenna.ie/You’re Not the Problem, which she co-wrote, is available hereShe also has a podcast, Beyond Survival, which I’ve found enlightening and supportive. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to season 3 of the Bad Mothers podcast.In the first season of the podcast, I focused on women who are estranged from their mothers and thinking about whether they want to become mothers. The second season included more talk about motherhood – how our dogs might play a role in our choices about kids, or how we can reframe our perspective if things don’t go the way we want. I also interviewed a few other brilliant women who wrote about being estranged, being mothers, or both.This season, I’m interested in exploring sibling estrangement, particularly when it results directly from maternal estrangement. I write often about my sisters – we’re very close, and I’ve always attributed that partly to the fact that we bonded over our shared experience with our mom. But that’s not always the way it goes.I’m kicking off the season with Dr. Katie McKenna, who gives us the lay of the land when it comes to narcissistic family systems, and explains how sibling rifts can develop. Then I talk to my father, who taught me from a very young age that my sisters are my most important relationship. I wanted to understand why he thought that was an important lesson to impart, and explore whether it helped my sisters and I cope better with our mother and remain close in spite of estrangement from her.Then we get into several interviews with women who open up about their own sibling estrangements—we talk about what happened, how they’ve managed, and advice for others in the same situations.The season rounds out with writer talks on books featuring estrangement stories, and two healing professionals with advice on how to overcome these painful experiences.I hope this season offers you something useful. As always, please share your thoughts in the comments or email me at [email protected] 1 will be available next week. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Bad Mothers began as an outlet for me to write about how women can subvert their assigned scripts, particularly around motherhood. I advocate for abortion rights, reproductive justice, the right to be a “working” mom or a stay at home mom without judgement, and especially the right to not be a mom at all. When I shared an essay about how I became estranged from my mother nearly twenty years ago, I heard from many women who had a similar conflict in their lives, and I realized that in addition to the facetious “bad mother” title of my Substack, there is also room to talk about actual bad mothers — mothers who persistently let their own emotions and desires override those of their daughters. To be clear, I often argue for all women, including mothers, to be able to do just that. But in my opinion, estrangement most often occurs when the mother is simply unable to prioritize her daughter’s needs even when her daughter is asking for it directly and desperately. So, the meaning of Bad Mothers expanded, and the podcast allowed me to interview more women who had fraught or non-existent relationships with their own mothers to ask about how things fell apart, how they feel now, and whether they wanted kids of their own in the wake of that breakdown. This season, I was happy to expand the scope slightly to talk to more women who write about motherhood in a way I found compelling and hopeful. Kate Muir and Melissa Fraterrigo are what I would consider “good” mothers in that they told me about how they try to be there for their kids in the way their kids need them to be. For Kate, it was how she managed a divorce she needed in a way that prioritized her children’s emotions.Melissa nearly brought me to tears when she talked about being an imperfect mother but always being willing to apologize and own up to her fallibility:I think both these women are teaching their daughters incredibly important things about life and being a woman.And speaking of moms who are trying — how about stepmoms! My step-mom of 25 years, Julie, and I put it all out there in Episode 3, where she talked about how difficult it was — and sometimes still is — finding her role with me.Of course I still spoke to women who know a lot about estrangement, including Dr. Bridgette Petit, Tam Stevens and Megan Margherio. Bridgette explained how she advises patients who are struggling with family relationships, and I especially enjoyed that her advice is focused on you.Tam explained some of the reasons she sees estrangement occur. While politics might not be the reason, it can serve as a breaking point. (This is something Maggie Frank-Hsu covered in a recent guest essay from Ashley Scoby on Estranged).Megan shared the moment she realized she could mourn the idea of a mother she never had and still walk away from a mother who hurt her.I spoke to Gayle Kirschenbaum, who fascinated me with her ability to simply ignore all the ways her mother hurt her in favor of having a relationship. I wish it was possible for all of us to do this, but sadly I don’t think it works in every case. Still, Gayle is a shining example of extreme persistence, and after decades, she managed to achieve some agreed understanding with her mother.Finally, I had to feed my interest in — forgive me for using the term — dog moms. I don’t refer to myself as a dog mom, mainly because I wouldn’t want anyone to think that I believe caring for a dog is like being a mother. But I have learned through my own experience this year with a puppy, and interviews with other women, that it can be similarly trying in particular ways. And for me, it’s a way to achieve some level of ‘maternal’ love and affection without taking on what I consider to be the overwhelming burden and responsibility of motherhood. I talked to Keltie Maguire, the Kids or Childfree coach, about what dogs might teach us about how much autonomy we are willing to sacrifice.I was also so happy to talk to Katie Dunn, who writes about her decision to walk away from IVF and find joy in other ways of living, including with her dog.Well, I can’t think of a better way to wrap up this season than with that sentiment: dogs are awesome. Who can argue with that, really? I hope you enjoyed this season and I’d love your feedback. Please share in the comments or email me at [email protected]. The podcast will be back in the spring. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Tam Stevens is a psychologist, trainee counsellor and PhD researcher whose work centres on family relationships, identity and resilience. She runs the Substack Family Estrangement, where she explores the complex realities of family cut-offs from both sides - those who choose distance and those who live through being estranged. Her writing takes in many forms of estrangement and aims to offer nuance and balance in an often polarised conversation, helping family members better understand one another’s experiences. Across all her work, she is driven by a single question: How do we build resilient families with flexible, accepting communication?In this episode, we take a few minutes to tell you about our Estrangement Book Club, which is happening this Thursday.Then we talk about how a mother’s priorities evolve over the life of their children, communication within families (both biological and adopted), and the perceived frequency of estrangement.Mentioned in this episode:Jennette McCurdy’s memoir, I’m Glad My Mom Died.Join the Estrangement Book Club meeting this Thursday: Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Thanksgiving week is often the start of a difficult time of year for a lot of estranged people, and I hope this interview with Dr. Bridgette J. Peteet is helpful.She is a clinical psychologist, professor, and author of (dis)Honor Thy Mother: Daughterhood, Dysfunction, and Deliverance. This hybrid memoir blends personal truth with psychological insight. Her work centers on adverse childhood experiences, cultural identity, and resilience, drawing from nearly two decades of community-engaged health disparities research. Her writing invites readers to confront difficult family narratives while reclaiming healing, power, and possibility.I’m so pleased to share this conversation with Dr. Peteet, who brings her own experience and anecdotes, but even better, professional advice and information for women in difficult or impossible relationships with their mothers, and who are working hard to overcome those demons. I found her to be an enlightened and validating voice in a space often filled with turmoil.You can follow Dr. Peteet on Instagram. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

If you’re a regular listener or reader of Bad Mothers, you know I adopted a puppy this year and it has been A LOT. I think it’s been a lot for me especially as an adamantly child-free woman. Because Annie demands all of my attention.It made me want to talk to other women who have made really thoughtful choices about whether to have children, and how pets fit into those choices.As soon as I found Katie’s Substack, I knew she’d make a great guest on this subject — and not just because she too has a “high energy” border collie. But more than talking about life with a dog, Katie offers a special perspective on the expected touchstones of life as a woman.Katie Dunn writes Afterglow, a space dedicated to the other happy endings - the ones that don’t end with a marriage, two kids and a white picket fence - but are still full of joy, purpose, and meaning. After navigating divorce and two infertility chapters in her 30s, Katie shares essays that challenge the narrow scripts of womanhood and the silence around fertility treatment that doesn’t “work.”Through honest storytelling, Katie explores what it means to step off the patriarchal escalator of life and create fulfilment, adventure and connection on your own terms.I hope you enjoy this conversation! Please be aware we do discuss infertility. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

My guest this week is Gayle Kirschenbaum. She is a filmmaker, writer, photographer and coach who recently released a memoir called Bullied to Besties, about how she healed her relationship with her mother. Her documentary, LOOK AT US NOW, MOTHER! is about the same journey. You can find her on Substack here.I wasn’t sure Gayle would be the right fit for Bad Mothers, in spite of all evidence that her mother was abusive toward her and their relationship was extremely fraught for most of her life. I hesitated because Gayle is focused on the healing part of her story. She and her mother are now very close. Unfortunately I don’t believe this is possible for many of us who are estranged from our mothers, and I didn’t want anyone who had to choose estrangement to feel they have failed in some way. You have not failed.Gayle told me that forgiveness doesn’t have to mean reconciliation, but forgiveness is what she needed to let go of anger and resentment and live a happier life. I believe this is an important step for all of us, but it may never lead to reconciliation.Gayle and I seem to disagree on some of the fundamental responsibilities of parents and their children: I am not convinced it is my job to reframe instead of her job to acknowledge. In spite of her persistence, I still don’t believe it’s the best path forward for many of us with mothers whose self-awareness is nonexistent.But I’m curious to know how you feel — please share in the comments, or send me a message at [email protected]’s memoir is available at all major bookstores, and on Bookshop.org. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Kate Muir is a women’s health expert, investigative journalist and documentary maker. She created and produced two ground-breaking Channel 4 documentaries on menopause that ignited a massive conversation among women in the UK. Her latest book is How to Have a Magnificent Midlife Crisis, and I met her when she visited my local bookshop.I was intrigued by the content of her book, of course, but the thing that made me want to invite her on the podcast was an offhand remark she made, about how she’d been a bad mother for wanting a divorce.Part of having a magnificent midlife crisis has to do with asserting our own needs and desires as women in midlife. And I think there are a lot of similarities between this idea, and allowing women, without judgement, to decide to be childfree or to go no- or low-contact with a parent if that is the best thing for them. These problems are not necessarily related, but the related cultural norms have historically forced women to put up with things that make them unhappy or worse.I hope you enjoy this conversation with Kate about what makes a good mother, what made her feel like a bad mother, and how she’s come through it all. In this conversation, Kate discusses her research on the benefits of using hormone replacement therapy, and shares her experiences of motherhood from the early days to adulthood. The resources discussed follow:Dr. Mary Claire Haver Dr. Louise Newson Anne Lamott, Operating Instructions: A Journal of My Son’s First YearLouise Erdrich, The Blue Jay’s Dance: A Memoir of Early MotherhoodAnne Tyler, Ladder of Years Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

In this week’s episode, I speak to Melissa Fraterrigo, whose new book, The Perils of Girlhood, is a memoir in essays about how we teach girls to live in this world — both from her own perspective through her experiences as a young girl, and as a mother to girls.Melissa also wrote the novel Glory Days and a short story collection, The Longest Pregnancy. Her work has been nominated twice for Pushcart awards, and she teaches writing at Purdue University and in the MFA Program at Butler University in Indianapolis, and hosts the Lafayette Writers’ Studio, with many courses offered online — I encourage you to check it out.You can find Melissa on Substack at Between the Lines, and on Instagram @melissafraterrigo.Please note our discussion includes references to sexual assault. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Bad Mothers refers to mothers who’ve hurt us, from whom we’re estranged.But it also refers to other kinds of mothers, other kinds of women. I originally meant it as a facetious way to describe myself - I’m a “bad mother” because society thinks motherhood is all women are good for and I’ve decided to not be one.So this season, in addition to continuing my conversations with women who are estranged from their mothers, I wanted to speak to other kinds of mothers — including step moms.This week my stepmother, Julie, joined me for a candid conversation about the complications of being a stepmom — in particular my stepmom, whose role in my life has changed dramatically and several times from when we first met 30 some years ago.I hope our honesty and self-reflection are helpful to other step-mothers and step-daughters who are trying to figure out the dynamic of their relationship. It’s not easy, but like all relationships, if both people are willing to make the effort, it can have great potential. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This week we return to our roots with a discussion of maternal estrangement, with Megan Margherio.Megan is an author and trauma-informed embodiment coach. Her work is shaped by both lived experience—childhood trauma, estrangement, and complex PTSD—and deep study in nervous system repair and somatic healing. Her debut memoir, Everwoven: A Memoir. A Reckoning., is a raw, lyrical journey through estrangement, emotional survival, and the long, slow return to self.Megan’s story is harrowing, but her self-awareness and strength is truly an inspiration and I hope this conversation is helpful to others in similar situations.Please be aware that we discuss sexual and physical abuse.Save the DateFinally, a reminder that our very first Estrangement Book Club meeting is December 4, and we’re talking about Jennette McCurdy’s memoir, I’m Glad My Mom Died. You can register to join us here: Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I’m kicking off Season 2 with a discussion about being a child-free dog mom. How does having a dog — and especially a puppy — help us frame our ideas about motherhood? For me, it’s been a tough few months with my new puppy Annie, and I’ve thought a lot about how she compares with a baby and why I chose one over the other. The perfect person to kick off this conversation is Keltie Maguire, a clarity coach who helps women decide whether motherhood or a childfree path is for them. She is also the host of The Kids or Childfree Podcast, where she features the stories of people with and without kids, in order to bring new perspectives and insights to those who are on the fence about parenthood. Originally from Vancouver, Canada, Keltie lives in Munich, Germany, with her husband, Chris, and their dog, Shira.Learn more about Keltie and her coaching services here. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to season 2 of the Bad Mothers podcast.Last season, I focused only on strained or estranged mother-daughter relationships.One of the things that I hope others take away from those conversations, apart from the necessity and validity of choosing estrangement, is that sometimes – perhaps even most of the time – our mothers were doing their best. It just wasn’t enough. I have sympathy for my mother while at the same time knowing that she hurt me and that a relationship between us is not possible for many reasons.And so I think a natural progression from that acknowledgement is to look at other kinds of mothers who are also trying and maybe succeeding – trying to fit in, trying to fill a unique role, trying to understand what their children need. They might be stepchildren, natural children, adopted children, or – and stay with me – dogs.As I’ve previously shared, I adopted a puppy this year, and it has forced me to reckon with all the reasons I don’t have children and how or if that choice is tied in any way to my estrangement from my mother. And so I’ll talk to other child-free and childless people who have decided to have dogs instead of kids to try to better understand our choices and what they mean to us.In addition to the dog parents, I’m excited to speak to other moms, estranged daughters, and step parents, to discuss all the unique challenges mothers of all kinds face every day.I hope you’ll join me for the second season of Bad Mothers! Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This is the final episode of Season 1 of the Bad Mothers podcast. I want to thank everyone for listening and engaging with the show over the past six months, and for supporting this endeavour. I specially want to thank my guests who generously shared themselves and their experiences with all of us.For this last episode, I decided to bring my sister Gina back, from Episode 1, to interview me. Since my guests shared so many personal insights about their estrangement journeys, I thought it was only fair that I answer some tough questions, too. She also included some questions that were submitted by listeners and others from Together Estranged (an organisation you can learn more about in Episode 8).Thank you Gina for being game for my random ideas, as always!I hope you enjoy this episode, and I look forward to returning later in the year with a new concept under the Bad Mothers umbrella! Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Angel Cassin is the Chief Executive of Together Estranged, an international non-profit supporting adults who are estranged from their families. With a background in project management, Angel brings a pragmatic approach to running TE. She’s passionate about creating spaces for unheard voices in the community.This episode includes Angel’s own experiences of estrangement and motherhood. Last week I shared the first half of our conversation about the practicalities of estrangement, alternative ways to frame our emotions around it, and the work of Together Estranged.Here’s the link to the Surgeon General’s report about the stressors of parenting, which includes: While parents and caregivers are working more, they are also spending more time engaging in primary child care than before. This care includes physical care, education-related activities, reading to/with children, and playing/doing hobbies with children, among other activities.b, c, 33 Time spent weekly on primary child care has increased by 40% among mothers from 8.4 hours in 1985 to 11.8 hours in 2022, and by 154% among fathers from 2.6 hours in 1985 to 6.6 hours in 2022.Resources from Together EstrangedEventsAdvice ColumnCommunity Resource ListPrivate Support Group1:1 Therapy Token with BetterhelpVolunteerJoin our BoardFor more about Together Estranged, listen to Episode 8 with Angel, published last week. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Angel Cassin is the Chief Executive of Together Estranged, an international non-profit supporting adults who are estranged from their families. With a background in project management, Angel brings a pragmatic approach to runningTE. She’s passionate about creating spaces for unheard voices in the community.I’ve divided our conversation into two parts. Today’s episode is focused on the practicalities of estrangement, alternative ways to frame our emotions around it, and the work of Together Estranged. Next week I’ll share the rest of my conversation with Angel, focused on her own experience of estrangement and motherhood.Resources from Together EstrangedEventsAdvice ColumnCommunity Resource ListPrivate Support Group1:1 Therapy Token with BetterhelpVolunteerJoin our BoardFor the final episode of the season, I’d like to host a Q&A. If you have any questions for me about estrangement or being child-free, please email [email protected]. We can of course keep all questions anonymous, but if you’re comfortable doing so, feel free to send your question as a voice memo that I can play on the podcast. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Elizabeth Austin is a writer whose work has appeared in TIME, Harper’s Bazaar, Narratively, and many others -- some of it focused on how she considers herself to be a ‘bad’ mom. As a memoirist she explores the intricacies of relationships and often self-interrogates -- something that anyone who is estranged knows can be a complicated process. She is co-editor of the forthcoming anthology, Root Cause: Stories of health, harm, and reclaiming our humanity in an epidemic of loneliness. You can find Elizabeth on Substack here. The book Elizabeth recommends is In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Mate. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Maggie Frank-Hsu is a writer based in San Diego. She is the author of a poetry chapbook “A Drop in the Dry Season,” and the Estranged newsletter on Substack.Estranged features essays, interviews, news, and reviews all about parent, child, and sibling estrangement with a focus on understanding, not blame.Our conversation covers Maggie’s limited relationship with her mother, her research on estrangement, and her thoughts on parenting and how those thoughts evolved thanks to her research.We also veer a bit into feminism and domestic labor, just for good measure! I hope you enjoy this episode, and be sure to subscribe to Maggie’s newsletter, Estranged.Recommended reading:Fault Lines, by Karl PillemerShadow Daughter, by Harriet BrownAnd on Reddit: Estranged Adult Kids and Estranged Adult Child Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Please be aware that this episode includes discussion of suicide attempt, addiction and alcoholism.Kari Bentley-Quinn is an award winning playwright whose work has been produced in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and other places in the US and Canada.Kari got her BA in Theater Arts at Pace University and her MFA in Playwriting at Hunter College, where she studied with Tina Howe. She was a co–founder of Mission to Ditmars, a theater company in Queens, NY. Alongside her fellow co-founders, Kari facilitated the development of more than 30 new plays. In addition to her work as a playwright, she is the writer and publisher of The Long Climb on Substack, which contains essays about her experiences with trauma recovery, parental estrangement and late diagnosed ADHD.Kari lives in Astoria, Queens with her husband Mike and her cats, Annie and Talula. You can learn more about her at her website: www.karibentleyquinn.com.Kari’s essay on her estrangement from her mother and choice to not have children is on her Substack, here.The essay that Kari references from Gabrielle Moss is here. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This episode is a bit different, which is why I’m calling it a bonus. It’s a much shorter interview, and it’s with an academic scholar, Dr. Katie Gaddini. She is a Visiting Scholar at Stanford University, an Associate Professor of Sociology at the Social Research Institute, University College London (UCL) and a research associate at the University of Johannesburg, Department of Sociology. From 2022-2026 she is a United Kingdom Research & Innovation (UKRI) Research Fellow at Stanford University and UCL. Her debut book, The Struggle to Stay, was based on over four years of in-depth ethnographic research with single evangelical women in the US and the UK. She is currently writing a book on Christian women and conservative politics from 1970 to present. Her writing has been published in San Francisco Chronicle, The Conversation, The Hill, Religion & Politics, LA Review of Books, The Marginalia Review, and more. Katie holds master’s degrees from Boston College and the London School of Economics, and a PhD in Sociology from the University of Cambridge. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I'm excited to share this new episode of Bad Mothers, because it's my first speaking to a fellow child-free person. I've noticed that many people assume that the reason I don't have children is due to my fraught relationship with my mother. It's a reasonable thing to think, so I wanted to meet more women who are child-free and estranged. Were they, like me, never really inclined to have children, or have their mothers played a role in some way?My guest today, Aarti, has not stopped contact with her mother, but she lives very far away. Aarti lives in the US, and her mother in India. They have a complicated and distant relationship. Many of Aarti's experiences as an adolescent have contributed to her decision to not have children, but as she explains, her choice is also related to how she'd like to live her life and her awareness that we do not live in an equal society. In many ways Aarti has moved beyond her mother's more traditional expectations for her -- both in terms of being a woman but also being an Indian woman. Aarti’s fruitless struggle to be known by her mother in spite of these differences, I think, will be familiar for many of us. If you're going through something similar, I hope this conversation offers you some support. In this episode we discuss being child-free, the myth of a carefree or careless estrangement, setting healthy boundaries, the responsibility of caregiving, finding balance in romantic relationships (especially when we carry a lot of emotional baggage), cultural expectations, narcissistic mothers and hyper-independence.If you have any feedback, you can reach me at [email protected]. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

For the second episode of the podcast, I spoke to an anonymous Substacker called Your Own Mother. In her newsletter, she offers beautiful and insightful essays about her personal experience with estrangement, recovery from an abusive and traumatic childhood, and some of the overlooked but equally painful repercussions of estrangement.She has two children, and like Gina in episode 1, becoming a mother was a trigger for seeing and acknowledging the abuse inflicted by her own mother. We get into that, but also the long-lasting effects of emotional and physical abuse, the primal need to have a mother who makes things better, and on coping when life doesn’t give you a “good” mother. Resources: * According to Psychology Today: Parentification is a role reversal in families in which the child acts as the parent in the family system. For instance, emotional parentification can take the form of a child mediating between family members, acting as a parent’s therapist, or being privy to their parents’ adult problems, such as a single parent's dating struggles or financial woes.* Read to Your Own Mother here.* The book my guest recommends is Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, by Lindsay Gibson. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

My central goal for the Bad Mothers podcast is to remove the guilt and shame many of us feel for creating boundaries with abusive parents. I want to know if fraught relationships with our mothers play a role in our decisions about having children, which of course feeds into a larger cultural narrative about the declining birth rate, family policy and abortion rights.So, I thought the best place to start was a conversation with my sister, Gina. I decided not to have kids, and Gina has two daughters – but we’re estranged from the same mom, and grew up in the same household with our two other sisters.In this episode, we discuss how our mother’s treatment affected us and our choices, what we thought about motherhood as children, and how that perception evolved over time.Gina and I don’t discuss the details here of how our mother hurt us as kids because I don’t think that’s as important as the fact that we know our estrangement to be necessary for our well-being and safety. I’ve written about the hows and whys here. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

On the Bad Mothers podcast, we’ll dive deep into our maternal urges, or lack thereof. We’ll talk about the mothers we left, or who left us, and whether they haunt our own choices about having children.Why?I created Bad Mothers to give women space to be whatever they want to be, even if that is a “bad” mom – a woman who is frustrated, or doesn’t love being a mom, or decided not to have kids, or isn’t sure, or doesn’t work outside the house, or does…It’s mostly rooted in my interest in maternal ambivalence or even apathy – a disinterest in having children.While I’ve thought about this for most of my adult life, I began researching it in earnest as part of a PhD, learning how the choice to have kids has evolved both legally and culturally in the US.I have never had a sincere interest in having children, but when I began talking more about this as a political choice, it became apparent that most people close to me believe my feelings about motherhood are due to my estrangement from my mother.I don’t believe that is the case. My apathy toward motherhood was there long before my mother cut off communication. But, I did begin to wonder if there are women who make the decision about whether to have kids with deep consideration of an estrangement from their mothers. And I wanted to know how they think about motherhood, what it means to be a good mother, whether they believe they are capable of it without having had a happy childhood, whether their own mothers were good in any way…So that’s what the Bad Mothers podcast will bring you – conversations with women who are estranged from their mothers and who are thinking deeply about their own maternal choices and how or whether their mothers are weighing on their minds.When possible, I’ll also continue to share conversations about abortion rights, the falling birth rate and family policy, since all of that plays into our choices.I’ll plan to publish new episodes every 2-3 weeks, beginning in January. Get full access to Bad Mothers at monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe