We're Not Marketers
by Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either.What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers.The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door.Stop being overlooked and start listening.Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
Episodes
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Every PMM Has a Plan Until Sales Punches It in the Face, w/ Laura Akonor
Most product marketers get told the roadmap isn't theirs. Laura Akonor, who runs global product marketing for TechEdge at Fifty5Blue, gets invited in. So we asked her how. Her answer describes it isn't charm. It's quick wins first. It's walking into every meeting as the student, not the expert…
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No One Reads Messaging Docs, w/ Libby Lienhoop
Libby Lienhoop thinks the name of this show is wrong. Now the Director of PMM and Sales Enablement at Conquest Planning, she first started out her career selling newspaper coupons in San Francisco, moved into tech sales, and watched one great product marketer run enablement until she knew that…
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IC vs PMM leadership. Is the promotion today still worth it? (with Emily Pick)
Emily Pick (Director of Product Marketing at Docebo) can do product marketing in her sleep. So when she earned the director title, she took it. Is it still worth it? She tells her side of the story, and if you're asking yourself the same? You might relate with what's she saying below. Notable...
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Time to pivot? Fractional PMMs reveal.
Three fractional PMMs (Eric, Gab and Zach), one uncomfortable question: when you pivot your offer, do you actually know what you're doing? In this next episode, Zach opens up about his two business pivots this year. Does he know what he's doing? That's what he asked himself. Nine months passed…
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They're Paying $400K for a Job Product Marketers Already Do, w/ Elliott Rayner
Companies are posting head of storytelling roles at around $400K a year, and Elliott Rayner (Head of Storytelling at OWOW Agency and Creator of The Story Cohort) has the receipts: 25 of those job descriptions, pulled apart in his State of Storytelling 2026 report. His read is that it is a chief...
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Death to Sameness w/ Nina Churchill
Nina Churchill quit her corporate PMM job effective immediately. She then wrote a series of posts on LinkedIn that reached about half a million people. She's a fellow product marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts, where she helps B2B companies stop sounding like everyone else. We get into…
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Your CEO Just Handed You an Event. Now What? w/ Maggie Arai
Your CEO just said you're hosting an event. You've never run one. Now what? Maggie Arai is the Founder of IRL Studios, where she designs in-person events for online brands. She's run more than 70 of them. She's also the person keeping Death to Marketing, our own conference, out of a ballroom with...
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We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event
Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same...
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Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor
Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team…
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PMA Offered Us $200. We Said "No Deal", and Built Our Own Event
This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the…
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How a Guy Who Graded Film Got Tricked Into Product Marketing w/ Jason Druss
Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why...
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AI is killing your marketing (one way to fix) w/ Gila Shapiro
Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive...
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Allergic to bullshit marketing w/ Louis Grenier
Louis Grenier has run a podcast called Everyone Hates Marketers for 8 years. He's not here to be nice about it. In this episode, Lou breaks down why product marketing only exists because B2B tech forgot what customers actually want — and why your positioning project is probably being run by the...
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“I’m Just A Normal PMM Trying To Survive” (with David Lim)
Are product marketers actually marketers, or are they just glorified slide deck designers waiting for sales to bark orders? David Lim—a PMM who's survived Google, HP, and multiple startups—joins the skeleton crew to drop some uncomfortable truths. We talk about earning respect when founders don't...
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The Anti-ICP Strategy: How To Use Your Website to Fire Bad Prospects w/ BX Studio
Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea...
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Strategy over fluffy jargon w/ Crystal Crouch
Crystal Crouch turned driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile into a product marketing empire - and she's not keeping the secrets. The woman who put Zach on the consulting path drops truth bombs about why 90% of company data is garbage, why product management is harder than PMM (fight us), and how...
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No salary is worth your soul with Hattie the PMM
Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive…
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Why Product Marketing only lives (and dies) in B2B tech with Garrett Jestice
Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a...
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Are you the Sales B*tch or the trusted PMM? w/ Drew Giovannoli
Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar? Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on…
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How curiosity didn't kill the cat w/ Amanda Groves
Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons…
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Being human is your coolest feature w/ Nick Power
Marketers have become glorified executors, and, Nick Power isn't here to sugarcoat it. The lowercase LinkedIn legend– who also leads marketing at Noun Project– joins us to explain why your strategy docs are bullshit, why he'd delete his digital presence tomorrow, and how running five miles beats...
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Measure important stuff or die trying w/ Pranav Piyush
Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise? Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually…
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Why B2B events sucks for PMMs? (And why we’re starting our own)
Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to. Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience…
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Klue (battlecards) don't close deals, buying champions do
AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They…
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Become a Mini-CEO: Inside the PMM Consultant’s Playbook w/ Alex Virden
What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely. In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what...
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There is no line between brand and product marketing w/ Jon Itkin
If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different. Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional...
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PMMs, MarTech, and making AI actually useful w/ Phil Gamache
Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From...
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Why In-House PMMs Without Fractional Experience Are Missing Out?
Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health...
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"Create Once, Dominate Forever: Why 2025 Content Decisions Determine Your 2030 Success w/ Ross Simmonds
In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030…
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Why marketing research Is more than just 'talking to customers' w/ Ryan Paul Gibson
Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong? In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all. From his days timing how long people take to put…
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When Copy Gets Real: Why Getting Too Creative Actually Kills Conversion
Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why...
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Product marketers, paid landing pages are broken, w/ Tas Bober
If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create...
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The bottom of funnel (BOFU) gap: Why content marketers need product marketers w/ Lashay Lewis
Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel...
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Winning at Win-Loss: Why real research beats sales rep excuses w/ Ryan Sorley
Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't...
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Why most message testing is complete BS (and how to fix it)
Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more...
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Doing more with less as a solo PMM w/ Michele Nieberding
We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time! The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about...
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From SDR to CMO: Why the best sellers are marketers w/ Kyle Coleman
Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer. Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how…
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How to deliver outcome-based metrics as a PMM orchestrator w/ Chanel Chambers
We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz...
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RECAP - How to build influence as a PMM in 2025
In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your…
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Why your messaging briefs get thrown in the trash w/ Devin Reed
Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect...
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Building We're Not Marketers 💀 The Podcast Origin Story
Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry...
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Bet on Yourself: Lessons from Going Fractional as a PMM
Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work? In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore: The mindset shifts required to succeed in a...
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Simplifying stories and learning in Product Marketing w/ Peter Kortvel
The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers). Peter has worked as a video...
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3 different ways of making your mark as a founding PMM? (especially when everything is against you)
Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis. That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to...
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From Jack of All Trades to Niche Mastery in PMM, with Rob Kaminski
Episode Description: In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way....
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Become an Unignorable PMM by finding your superpower
Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone. In this episode of We’re Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the...
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The True Role of PMMs with Rahim Kaba
In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and...
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Becoming the PMM 2.0: Advocacy, AI, and Product Strategy w/ Jess Petrella
The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list. Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product...
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The PMM Horror Stories LIVE for Halloween w/ Michele Nieberding
The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing. We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even...
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Become Sales Best Friend with Win-Loss Analysis w/ Matthew Reeves
For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles. Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline. But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already…
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About this show
B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either.What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers.The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door.Stop being overlooked and start listening.Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
Hosted by
Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
Categories