The Business of Law with Joshua Baron

Your best clients won’t come from Google. Josh Baron and marketing strategist Danny Decker are here to prove it. In this episode, they unpack why small law firms should focus less on ad spend and more on relationships, referrals, and repeat clients. You’ll learn how to stay top of mind with your network through smart email and social media strategies that actually feel human. If you’ve ever wondered how to grow your firm without selling your soul to Google, this one’s for you.

Josh Baron and Mark Butler explore the ethical dilemmas lawyers face when business pressures collide with professional duty. Josh argues that financial stability is essential for lawyers to consistently make client-centered decisions, emphasizing how flat fees, trust accounts, and referral networks shape both risk and reputation. Listeners will gain practical insights into aligning law firm economics with integrity and why solving “business” problems is often the key to better legal service.

This episode is a LIVE recording from a BYU Law School class, where defense attorney Josh Baron talks about what it means to represent people who’ve been accused of wrongdoing, and why he sees Jesus as the ultimate criminal defense lawyer. The conversation dives into how faith, scripture, and the justice system overlap, with students asking real questions about advocacy, the justice system, and the business of law.

Join Brian Glass and Josh Baron as they delve into the art of relationship management and its transformative impact on referral-based law practices. They explore strategies like targeted outreach to referral partners and the 'Dream 100' approach to network building, emphasizing authenticity and trust in professional partnerships.

In this episode, Josh Baron speaks with Natey Ndlovu, a lawyer in the midst of transitioning from firm life to starting her own criminal defense practice. As Natey navigates her final days at her current firm, she shares the overwhelming challenges of managing deadlines, client notifications, and the emotional aspects of making a major career change. Josh offers practical time management insights for knowledge workers and shares his own journey of creating better boundaries around client consultations.Key TakeawaysTime Management for Knowledge WorkersTime management isn't a problem to "solve" but part of the human conditionKnowledge work can't be measured by the same metrics as factory workLooking at monthly results rather than hourly productivity often provides a better measure of successSometimes activities that don't look productive (like staring out the window) can lead to breakthrough insightsThe Emotional Side of TransitionsLeaving a firm often feels like "breaking up" with someone when you know it's not working outThe relief of finally making the decision can be significantManaging transitions involves both practical and emotional challengesBetter Ways to Measure Your DayInstead of counting tasks completed, ask: "Was I engaged? Was I kind?"To-do lists will never be completely finished - making peace with this is essentialSometimes necessary work isn't exciting but still needs to be doneThe Consultation Block StrategySetting specific times for consultations instead of being always availableHaving staff screen potential clients to ensure fitResults in higher sign-up rates and better preparationAllows you to show up as your best self for client interactionsOvercoming Fear of Setting BoundariesInitial fears about losing business are often unfoundedSetting boundaries can actually improve both client experience and your quality of lifeThe "catastrophizing" mindset often prevents positive practice improvementsMentioned Resources"Four Thousand Weeks" by Oliver Burkeman"Meditations for Mortals" by Oliver Burkeman"Slow Productivity" by Cal NewportAbout Natey NdlovuNatey is transitioning from an established law firm to launching her own criminal defense practice. Her experience includes working as a public defender.Natey's firm: Cornick Ndlovu, PLChttps://www.virginia-criminal.com/Connect With UsThe Business of Law Podcast: https://businessoflaw.transistor.fm/Josh Baron: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuabaron/Have a topic suggestion or want to be a guest? Email [email protected]

This conversation with California-based R.J. Dreiling was so much fun! We discuss potential client consultations, energy and time management, and criminal defense as an art, not a science.-"Sock Hop" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/-We were recently selected to some best of lists!https://podcast.feedspot.com/criminal_law_podcasts/https://podcast.feedspot.com/criminal_defense_podcasts/

Check out some clips from a recent conversation I had with Isaac Ortega, the founder of Ortega Law Group, and some thoughts I had after our conversation. We discussed his beautiful referral relationship process, as well as how to prioritize your well-being.Music Credit:"Sock Hop" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

In this episode, Joshua takes you on a journey through the landscape of legal niches, aiming to help criminal lawyers discover the perfect size for their defense practice.Ever wondered if you're being specific enough in your niche? Joshua shares anecdotes from his own legal adventures and conversations with industry experts, including the invaluable advice from his friend Marco Brown, a standout divorce and custody lawyer.Josh challenges conventional wisdom on niches, exploring the delicate balance between specificity and broadness. Forget the jargon; this episode is all about making it easy for your referral partners to send clients your way. Josh breaks down the elements of a successful referrak habit loop, emphasizing the importance of being obvious, attractive, easy, and satisfying.From the practical side of tailoring your pitch to different audiences to the crucial considerations of market support and client motivation, Joshua provides a roadmap for lawyers looking to carve out their niche successfully.Join Josh Baron in "Navigating Niches" as he breaks down the myths, shares real talk, and sets you on the path to niche mastery. It's time to find that sweet spot for your criminal defense practice. Tune in and level up your criminal defense game!

In this episode, Josh reviews the complicated nature of paying referral fees and the ways they can transform a sincere relationship into a transaction. Instead, focus your efforts on delivering an excellent experience to the referred client and honoring the trust of the referral partner. 

In this episode, Josh discusses the difficulty of measuring a lawyer's "quality" and the value of focusing more on the immediate concerns of the client and less on the outcome of the case. In many instances, the outcome will have little bearing on the client's overall feeling toward you as a law practitioner. On the contrary, if you address and reduce the underlying anxieties a client may feel toward the case, you have a better chance of earning their trust and higher ratings. 

In this brief episode, Josh shares a powerful rule that can make or break a referral relationship: one strike, and you're out. This refers to the importance of responding quickly to and taking good care of referred clients because one bad move can cost you future business with a referral partner. 

In this episode, Joshua discusses the importance of delivering a top-notch customer experience by seeking for opportunities to go the extra mile. For more information on this topic, check out Chip and Dan Heath's "The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact".

In this episode, Josh talks about what it takes to master the art of building referral relationships. Often, this can mean knowing when to ask for help, when to hire someone else who knows, and when to make a referral yourself. The key is to know where you shine and acknowledge where you can grow.

In this episode, Joshua references "The 4 Disciplines of Execution" by Chris McChesney, Jim Huling, and Sean Covey, specifically the importance of distinguishing between lead and lag indicators and focusing on what you can control when it comes to building referral relationships that last. 

"Price is a multiplier and it might be the most powerful multiplier. When you quote a price, you're telling the client how important the case is to you and how important it should be to them. When you raise your prices, it transforms the kind of service you can provide. Raising your prices has a ripple effect on your whole business. It's a single choice that makes a hundred other choices for you" (pg. 28-29 pf Criminal Defense Referrals)Get the book on Amazon

In this episode, Josh discusses finding the right networking style for you and shares a simple formula that can help you decide how many referral sources you actually need. But how many referral sources do you actually need? Here's the formula: Number of Referral Sources x Cases Per Source x Average Case Value - Expenses = Income Get the book on Amazon

In this episode, Joshua shares a story about his grandfather's knack for networking and the importance of playing to your strengths when it comes to building referral relationships and growing your practice. 

In this brief episode, Joshua discusses the importance of diversifying your referral sources and cautions against solely depending on any one referral party. If any one source makes up 20% or more of your revenue, they're not your partner. They're your boss. Now, that may be a reliable source and a sustainable path for some, but not all. If you're worried current clients or partners may look elsewhere for legal counsel in the future, now might be the time to explore other referral sources.  

In this episode, Joshua discusses the third category of referrals, which may be the farthest from actual money, but which can be integral to building long-lasting referral relationships. Let's be honest, it can be very awkward to ask for referrals. But, what if we instead asked our lawyer friends if we could have lunch with other attorneys they know? Don't put yourself above doing favors and waiving the fee for a fellow practitioner. Chances are, you know lawyers who know lawyers who have clients that you can help. Playing to your strengths can help expand your network, grow your practice, and cement your reputation as the trusted criminal defense lawyer.  

In this episode, Joshua discusses the power of building referral relationships with other attorneys. Your friend, the divorce lawyer, may know of a former client who is now in need of criminal defense expertise. Or, a fellow criminal lawyer may know of a co-defendant that needs representation. These are great opportunities to do them a service and meet the need of their dear clients. Take good care of those clients, and other attorneys will knock at your door the next time they have a case out of their wheelhouse. 

In this episode, Joshua discusses three types of referral sources: 1) Clients who refer future clients, 2) Non-Clients who refer clients, and 3) Non-Clients who refer non-clients who refer clients. The first is the most ideal but may only account for 10% of the referrals you receive. Still, it is extremely important that you leave a good impression on your clients. They may refer family members or other close friends. Give them great customer service, and you will be rewarded for it. 

In this episode, Joshua discusses the power of service in building referral relationships. Try serving on the board for a networking organization, such as a rotary club or the criminal section of the BAR. Again, it's essential that you hand pick a few activities that you feel passionate about and can do well rather than doing several activities poorly. Look for opportunities to serve potential referral partners by sending them referrals, covering a court hearing, or providing help with their projects. It's a win-win that reflects well on the referral partner who gains new clients and on you for being the attorney that really cares. 

In this episode, Joshua discusses the challenges and benefits of giving gifts. Here, quid pro quo is a no-go. The best kinds of gifts place the focus on the recipient and demonstrate sincere care rather than transactional expectation of recompense. Give gifts with honest intentions and you might just gain a few referrals! Get the book on Amazon!

In this episode, Joshua discusses the impact of kind words in conversation, a written note, email, or text. If you enjoy sending cards, for instance, it's important to choose materials that are easily accessible to you as well as a size of card that is appropriate and proportional to the message you intend to send. Just as critical is the specificity of the words used. Being concrete in your complements can show an individual that you actively observe, listen to, and admire their work. If this is your cup of tea, set a goal to do it consistently and expect results!Get the book on Amazon!

In this episode, Joshua discusses his favorite referral-building activity: quality time. Be it a lunch with other attorneys, a continuing education event, or a phone call to a former connection, the key is to choose people who you genuinely enjoy spending time with, and to focus on their challenges and desires. Consistent, thoughtful interaction with other lawyers can lead to fruitful relationships - and maybe a few referrals! Get the book on Amazon!

In this episode, Joshua invites us to consider the impact of giving ourselves permission to find and do the referral-building activities that bring us joy. Whether it be offering a kind word, spending quality time, giving a gift, or providing small, sincere acts of service, the most effective method should be the one that comes easy and naturally.  Get the book on Amazon!

In this episode, Joshua discusses the hidden costs of advertising and the joys of building referrals relationships. He also makes a compelling case for referrals that may just convince the skeptics who are clinging to Google, billboards, and SEO consultants.Get the book on Amazon!

In this episode, Joshua Baron introduces his latest book, Criminal Defense Referrals: How to Fire Google and Connect with your Ideal Clients. He discusses several approaches to finding referrals, and the benefits of finding what works best for you and your practice.  In other words, the book helps criminal defense lawyers build referral relationships that lead to a business those lawyers love. When I was in law school, the institution put on an event focused on teaching students how to start their own law firms. They had one-hour sessions with three or four successful lawyers. My only question was: how do you get clients? They talked about copiers or leasing an office space... but never answered that burning question. I was appreciative of these individuals and their generous donation of time and knowledge, yet the information they shared was vague and often resulted in invitations to join local bar sections or rotary clubs.I was perplexed. How long would it take to acquire clients and get the firm off the ground? How much could I expect to make? How reliable was this structure? In 2017, my business partner retired and I had the opportunity to ask myself: What do I want my law practice to look like? How would I get my name out there? Advertising was the usual answer. But that didn't feel right. I looked around and recognized that several of my colleagues met all of their clients through referrals. Bingo. I took a lot of their advice, and left behind those things that didn't work for me. The result: Criminal Defense Referrals. This book is not meant to be a cookie-cutter, fill-in-the-blank workbook. Instead, it's organized around 10 questions that you need to answer in order to build your referral business. After all, your business and cases will look different than what I've built over the past few years. But by thinking carefully about these questions, I'm confident you can build a business around sincere, word-of-mouth referrals without having to worry about those pesky kickback fees for paid advertisements.  

Connect with Shreya on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreya-ley-36b46825/Shreya's law firm: https://www.layroots.com/Shreya's vacation responders:LayRoots Out of Office MessagesAugust 2017Colin and I are currently in Jackson, WY, attempting to summit the Grand Teton.  If you have spoken to us over the last year, then you probably know that we have been training for this trip for the last year or so. I jokingly say that we are testing the limits of our relationship because you really have to trust each other when climbing up a 1,500 foot face together...and camping in the back country.  Be prepared for stories upon our return.  We're only going to be gone a week so if you need to talk to me, please consider scheduling some time with me using this calendar: https://www.layroots.com/schedule or by calling our office number: 206-219-9559Alternatively, you can leave me a detailed email message and I will get back to you once I'm off the mountain.If this is an emergency, consider asking for Dr. Ron.  He's very nice.June 2018Some of you may not know this, but LayRoots was born on a surf trip five years ago.  Colin and I were camping and surfing on the Washington State coast.  Shreya was unhappy at her corporate job.  Colin was working for a number of national firms and feeling the grind.  Sitting around the campfire, looking at the stars, we dreamt up a life where we built the kind of company that we would enjoy working for...that was more...human.  Fast forward five years and we have our growing business.  We recently realized we had been so busy supporting other people's lives and businesses (which we love) that we had been neglecting our own in some ways!So, we are off to Mexico to surf and spend some uninterrupted time working ON the business and building out some of our content and systems.  We hope that YOU will see the benefit of this time so thank you for being patient with us.  We will have limited connectivity but it may take us a little longer to respond.  We don't want to get our keyboard sandy.  We will be back soon, so please consider scheduling some time with me using this calendar: 15 Minute AppointmentOR our receptionist will help you to schedule if you call our office number: 206-219-9559Alternatively, you can leave me a detailed email message and I will get back to you when I can.December 2018Some of you know this already, but the Lawyer-Human Show is going on the road!  We will be working for the next 5 weeks from Cambodia --> Thailand --> Vietnam.  Feel free to follow along on our journey on Instagram (@lawyerhuman).  Don't worry - we still got you.  We are working - we are just working really odd hours.  We will be available by email and limited to appointment-only for phone meetings (and it will be Zoom-based).  Thank you for understanding! The phone appts will generally occur between 5-7pm Seattle-time.Email me with an appt request and I will get back to you as soon as I get it. Alternatively, you can leave me a detailed email message and I will get back to you when I can.Hey there! We <3 you.  Our replies are delayed a bit for the next 5 weeks because we are working remotely from SE Asia.  So, 1) that explains the 3am emails/delayed response; 2) our phone availability is by appointment only.  Thanks for sticking with us and being patient!October 2019Some of you know this already, but the Lawyer-Human Show is going on the road again! We are fulfilling two dreams: 1) of having a business that we can periodically take with us (so, no, it's not a burden to be working during our travels - we're quite grateful for the opportunity); and 2) Colin's dream of exploring Peru before he turns the big 4-0.  So, we will be vacationing and working for 3 weeks from Peru and then we are speaking at a national conference in San Diego. Feel free to follow along on our journey on Instagram (@lawyerhuman and @shreyley) or on our podcast "The Lawyer-Human Show."  Don't worry - we still got you, but we WILL be making time for ourselves to explore too. So, we won't be available ALL the time. For example, when we are trekking through the Andes, we will not have any availability.  We will get back to you as soon as we can, though. You are important to us and we thank you for understanding! Email me with an appointment request and some deets, and I will get back to you as soon as I get it. July 2021We are at snowboard camp on vacation July 5-11. We will be checking emails, but our responses will likely be delayed.-- Colin & ShreyaIf you need help scheduling an appointment or need to converse with a person more immediately, please call 206-219-9559 OR make an initial phone appointment if you're new, at this link. Once we get notice of your message, we will call you back as soon as we can.

Alison Saros was a prosecutor for the Los Angeles County District Attorney. But she left because she felt a desire to help young people before they got into the criminal justice system. She eventually found her way back to the courtroom as a criminal defense attorney. But her approach borders on social work. She wants to solve the problems that led to her clients getting into trouble.Alison teaches us how to go from prosecution to defense. She also shared that the biggest tool in her success has been her ability to build relationships that solve problems.Alison's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alison-saros-7b207636/Alison's firm: https://saroslaw.com/

Beth Slate teaches us how to identify the tasks and roles that should inform your first hire. What's at the center of your desk? What jobs energize you? What do you postpone until the end of the month? Those tasks are at the corner of your desk. Hire for the corner jobs.https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethkslate/[email protected]

Send questions to [email protected] or https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuabaron/.

Follow Jay on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayharrington/Jay's consulting practice https://www.hcommunications.biz/about/jay-harringtonJay's podcast, The Thought Leadership Podcast https://www.hcommunications.biz/thethoughtleadershipproject

Follow Josh Camson on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshcamson/Josh Camson's firm profile: https://millerturetsky.com/dt_team/josh-camson/Josh Camson's Podcast, Interrogatories: https://montgomerybar.podbean.com/

Follow Jordan Ostroff on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-ostroff/Jordan's consulting company LegalEase Marketing https://legaleasemarketing.com/Jordan's law firm https://www.jordanlawfl.com/Jordan's podcast Exhibit (A)ttorney https://anchor.fm/legalease-marketing

Welcome to The Business of Criminal Law. My name is Joshua Baron.In 2009, I left my job as a criminal prosecutor and started a criminal defense law firm. It was scary. I had no clients. I had never represented an individual client. I had no idea what I was doing.This is a podcast for people who are obsessed with the business side of criminal law. You won’t find how-tos for cross examination on this podcast. Instead, we’ll talk about how to get clients, how to set your prices, and how to run your practice.I’ve been doing this for over twelve years. I love my criminal defense practice. I want to help you build a thriving practice. We need you.If you’re a practicing criminal defense lawyer, this podcast will help you grow your practice and find the clients you can help better than anyone else. If you’re trying to decide if you can start your own practice, the answer is you can! And you should! We need you.Practicing criminal defense doesn’t have to be thankless or exhausting. There are motivated clients who want your help and your expertise. If you’re ready to practice differently, then join us. Start listening and start practicing criminal defense law in a way that you and your clients will love.SB LegalThe Business of Criminal Law BookThe Business of Criminal Law SiteConnect with Josh on LinkedIn