The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy

When life gets difficult, are you reaching for a quick fix or building the inner resources to depend on? Why is self-improvement more about learning to accept yourself while continuing to grow than trying to constantly "fix" yourself? How can you truly build a fulfilling life? In this episode, Joe Sanok sits down with Dr. Celeste Birkhofer to discuss her book, Beyond Quick Fixes, and why lasting mental health requires more than temporary solutions. They explore the five inner resources that support a fulfilling life: a healthy sense of self, emotional intelligence, mental capacity, relational capacity, and healthy coping skills. They also discuss why self-improvement isn't about "fixing" yourself, but balancing self-acceptance with growth, and Dr. Birkhofer shares advice for private practitioners on caring for themselves while helping others.  

Could assessment be the key to growing your practice? Are there ways to ethically offer testing in your practice, even if you don't employ a psychologist? How can you use testing to scale your practice without compromising care? In this episode, Joe Sanok talks with Dr. Casey Mangnall about how psychological assessment helped her grow the Utah Center for Psychological Services from a side gig into a seven-figure practice in just three years. They explore how private practitioners can determine whether testing is a natural fit for their existing services and how to integrate assessment ethically without turning it into a high-volume, transactional service. Casey shares practical advice on choosing appropriate testing protocols, knowing when a psychologist is required, working with insurance and billers, and using assessment relationships to build referral networks. She also explains why thorough testing can provide clients with a deeper understanding of themselves and help guide more effective treatment.  

Are you targeting the right Google keywords? Could location-based keywords outperform "online therapy" and virtual ones? Is your website helping Google find your practice? In this episode, Joe Sanok works with digital marketing strategist Mike Zoladkowski to develop a Google Ads and SEO strategy for Great Lakes Online Counseling. They explore why targeting "online therapy" and "virtual therapist" keywords may not be the most effective approach, and why geographic and population-based keywords can often deliver better results. Mike explains how to start with the goal of an advertising campaign, choose keywords based on specific services and client populations, and structure website content so Google can understand exactly who and where the practice serves. The episode also looks at how SEO, website design and paid advertising work together to attract the right clients.

What are we getting wrong in modern parenting? Why could flexibility in parenting be as - if not more - important than consistency? What should you stop doing for your kids now to give them a better life as they grow up? In this podcast, Joe Sanok talks with psychologist Dr. Emily Edlynn about what modern parenting gets wrong and why flexibility may be more important than perfect consistency. They explore how to balance structure with empathy, raise confident and resilient children, and avoid over-parenting. Emily also shares why kids need opportunities to struggle and develop independence, the importance of downtime, and how practitioners can better support overwhelmed parents.

Do you really need AI to improve your SEO? What if your greatest SEO asset is your own voice? How can you stop letting AI replace and block the human connection in your content? In this episode, Joe Sanok talks with SEO and digital marketing expert Stephan Bajaio about why therapists and private practice owners don't need to rely on AI to improve their SEO. Stephan explains where SEO is heading in 2026 and why authentic, experience-based content is becoming increasingly valuable. They discuss how potential clients search for their problems using everyday language, and why practices should reflect that language in their websites and content. Stephan also shares practical ways therapists can use AI as a tool without allowing it to replace their voice. Rather than asking AI to write generic content, practitioners can use it to help capture, organize, and repurpose their own knowledge and ideas. Ultimately, Stephan argues that a practice's greatest advantage in an AI-driven world is its unique data, expertise, and lived experience.  

What are the core aspects of successful SEO for a new practice? How can you combine Google Ads with your social media and marketing strategies? When should you hire therapists in your new private practice? In this episode, Joe Sanok gives an update on building Great Lakes Online Counseling, sharing what he's learning about growing a new private practice through Google Ads, SEO, social media, and content marketing. He and Jen discuss how to use keywords effectively, coordinate different marketing channels, and attract the right clients online. Joe also explores adding psychedelic-assisted therapy to the practice, hiring additional therapists, and the next steps for expanding the business.

How can private practice sellers find the right buyers? What's the equivalent of a kitchen upgrade before a sale for private practices? Which numbers do you need to determine how attractive your practice is to potential investors?  In this episode,  *]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:8f71c108-bf8c-4248-949b-ee1cff3804b8-2" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:8f71c108-bf8c-4248-949b-ee1cff3804b8-2" data-testid= "conversation-turn-6" data-turn="assistant"> Joe Sanok talks with Daniel King about what it takes to successfully sell a private practice and find the right buyer. They discuss the emotional side of selling, how to create an attractive practice listing, and what investors look for when evaluating a business. Daniel shares practical steps owners can take 3–5 years before selling, including diversifying revenue, strengthening client and clinician retention, and reducing reliance on the owner. They also break down the basics of practice valuation, including SDE and EBITDA, and offer advice for building a more valuable, transferable practice.   _:empty]:hidden">      

Why does less freedom make you more creative? How can you use constraints effectively to help you get the most out of your creativity? Is AI helping you solve or avoid the real problem? In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok discusses creativity, constraints, and problem-solving with NYT bestselling author David Epstein, author of Inside the Box: How Constraints Make Us Better. They explore why having unlimited freedom can actually make people less creative, how constraints can unlock better ideas, and why subtracting commitments may be more effective than continually adding new ones. David also explains how AI can hinder creative problem-solving when it is used before the real problem has been identified, and offers advice for private practitioners navigating an increasingly AI-driven world while preserving the value of human connection.

Could the language we use around divorce be changed to reduce shame and stigma? How do you rebuild a life after letting go of the one you fought for? Could the end of a marriage become the start of yourself? In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Oona Metz, LICSW, CGP, about her book Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women and the emotional journey of divorce. They explore the myths, shame, and stigma surrounding divorce, how language can reshape the way we understand it, and the different ways women and men experience the transition. Oona explains the five phases of divorce grief and shares practical guidance for rebuilding identity, establishing boundaries, caring for children, and eventually moving forward. She also discusses the value of group therapy and offers advice for private practitioners supporting clients through divorce.

How does your environment shape your mental health more than you realize? Why do stronger relationships matter more than a bigger paycheck? Are we treating symptoms while overlooking the bigger picture? In this podcast, Joe Sanok sits down with Dr. Tara Thiagarajan to explore the findings of the Mental State of the World Report and what they mean for therapists and private practice owners. Dr. Thiagarajan explains how the Mental Health Quotient (MHQ) measures wellbeing across populations, why environmental factors such as social connection, smartphone use, and nutrition have a profound impact on mental health, and what the latest global research reveals about the decline in mental wellbeing. Together, they discuss how therapists can look beyond symptoms to better understand the broader societal influences shaping their clients' mental health.

Could niching down actually help your practice grow? Does specializing allow you to make a bigger impact, not a smaller one? Does it work out financially? And how can you know when it's the right time to become a specialty practice? In this episode, Melissa Schneider sits down with Kelsey Blahnik to explore whether niching down into a specialty practice is the right move for therapists. They discuss Kelsey's journey from running a general private practice to building a thriving OCD-focused group practice, the role of psychological flexibility in both therapy and business, and why specialization can lead to better client outcomes. They also share practical advice on knowing when to niche down, identifying the needs of your community, and building a practice that grows through purpose rather than trying to serve everyone.

What does it actually look like to be an inclusive leader? How can you realistically, practically, and genuinely "do the work" in a way that uplifts those around you? What is good allyship? In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Melinda Briana Epler about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion and what it means to lead inclusively in private practice. Melinda explains the importance of decentering one's own experiences, recognizing personal biases, and moving beyond performative gestures to create genuine belonging. She outlines practical ways practitioners can "do the work" through continuous learning, reflection, and action, while highlighting empathy, listening, and accountability as the foundations of effective allyship. The conversation concludes with practical questions for practice owners to assess how inclusive their businesses truly are and how they can better serve both their teams and clients.

Does marketing have to feel uncomfortable to be effective? What if authenticity is your greatest marketing strategy? Why could a "boring" business be your most successful one? Joe Sanok sits down with Maggie Patterson to explore how private practice owners can market their businesses without compromising their values. They discuss the pitfalls of manipulative online marketing, why authenticity builds stronger client relationships, and how therapists can communicate their expertise with confidence. Maggie also shares practical advice for creating a sustainable business by focusing on what works, avoiding unnecessary complexity, and making it easy for the right clients to find and trust you.

What if your strongest referral partner is already in your community? Is your client experience transformational, or transactional? How could stronger community partnerships improve client care? In this episode, Joe Sanok is joined by healthcare executive and leadership coach Jill Steeley to explore how private practitioners can build stronger community partnerships and create a more transformational client experience. Jill explains what federally qualified health centers (FQHCs) are, how they support underserved communities, and why they can become valuable referral partners for private practices. Together, they discuss the difference between transactional and transformational care, the importance of anticipating client needs and maintaining meaningful communication throughout the care journey, and how collaborating with community health centers can improve outcomes for clients while strengthening your practice. Jill also shares practical encouragement for clinicians, reminding them to identify what's holding them back and focus on building a sustainable, community-centered practice.  

Are you aware that your daily habits are training your brain - the good and the bad? What if your brain could change for the better? Where do you start to take great care of your body and brain to make changing your life easier? In this episode, Joe Sanok sits down with Thoryn Stephens to explore how neuroplasticity allows our brains to adapt and change throughout our lives. They discuss simple, science-backed habits that support better brain health, why small daily behaviors matter more than expensive supplements, and practical ways to optimize your mind and body for long-term well-being.  

Could doubling your practice be more achievable than you think? Which growth strategy would have the biggest impact on your business right now? Are you building a practice that depends entirely on you, or one that can grow beyond you? Joe Sanok explores whether starting a group practice is the fastest path to growing a private practice and explains why aiming to double your business can be both realistic and impactful. He shares practical strategies for increasing revenue, from raising rates and seeing more clients to creating passive income, while highlighting hiring clinicians as the quickest way to scale. Joe also breaks down the key systems for attracting and converting new clients, discusses ethical ways to gather reviews and feedback, and encourages practice owners to find the right support system so they can grow with confidence rather than figuring it all out alone.

What small improvements could make your private practice easier for prospective clients to find? Are you building referral relationships before you actually need them? Could consistent systems and community networking become your practice's greatest growth strategy? In Week 22 of building Great Lakes Online Counseling, Joe Sanok and assistant Jen focus on laying the groundwork for long-term growth through stronger visibility, streamlined systems, and intentional networking.  

Is your website more like a brochure rather than a client conversion tool? Could a few simple changes dramatically increase the number of people booking appointments? Are your website pages making it easy for both clients and Google to understand exactly what you offer? In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with website strategist Shayah Reed about how therapists can turn their websites from static brochures into powerful client conversion tools. They explore practical website improvements that can increase bookings, strengthen SEO, and create a better experience for prospective clients.

What happens when traditional depression treatments stop working? Could a single psychedelic-assisted therapy session create lasting change? What does the latest research reveal about psilocybin's potential in mental healthcare? In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Compass Pathways CEO Kabir Nath about the emerging role of psilocybin-assisted therapy in treating treatment-resistant depression (TRD). They discuss the latest clinical research, how psychedelic therapy is being studied, and its potential to transform mental healthcare.

Who should you network with depending on your ideal client base? Should you have a "meet the team" tab on the website? What criteria should you use for choosing your EHR? In this update on building Great Lakes Online Counseling, Joe Sanok and Jen share the latest progress as the practice prepares to welcome its first clients. While growth has slowed slightly in recent weeks, they focus on refining the client experience, strengthening the practice's brand, and planning strategic networking efforts. A major milestone is that Rachel, the practice's first clinician, is now fully onboarded and ready to begin seeing clients. With her availability added to the calendar, prospective clients can start booking appointments through the practice.  

Why do so many caring professionals still end up burned out? Could self-care be about doing more of what matters to you?  Is your best self-care routine already hiding in your daily habits? In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with therapist and educator Shaina Siber about redefining self-care and preventing burnout among mental health professionals. Drawing on her experience supporting healthcare workers during the COVID-19 pandemic, Shaina explains why sustainable self-care is less about adding more to your schedule and more about aligning daily habits with your values. Shaina shares how witnessing widespread burnout among frontline healthcare workers led her to develop a more practical, compassionate approach to well-being. After experiencing burnout herself, she realized that long-term sustainability requires intentionally caring for yourself in ways that fit your life rather than striving for unrealistic self-care routines.  

What does a successful practice actually look like? Too often, therapists get the answer to this question from anecdotes, social media, or their colleagues down the hall. And for good reason – the mental health field has lacked industry reports on the private practice experience for decades. Thankfully, that is all starting to change though. One of the largest analyses of independent mental health practices ever published came out recently from SimplePractice - representing the more than 245,000 clinicians that use their platform. Today, Dr. Lindsay Oberleitner, Head of Clinical Strategy at SimplePractice and lead author of this first-ever Annual State of Private Practice Report walks us through what hundreds of thousands of clinicians reveal about what's really going on in private practice today.

Are you underestimating how much work happens behind the scenes of a growing practice? What important tasks are slowing you down today but setting you up for success tomorrow? Are you frustrated by your pace, or are you making more progress than you realize? In Week 20 of building Great Lakes Online Counseling, Joe Sanok reflects on the slower-than-expected pace of launching a group practice while limiting himself to just two hours of work each week. Although the time restriction can be frustrating, it demonstrates how even a small, consistent investment can produce meaningful progress over time. Joe discusses the behind-the-scenes realities of practice ownership, explaining that much of the work at this stage involves administrative tasks such as credentialing, compliance, employee onboarding, and managing state-specific requirements. While these responsibilities aren't exciting and are difficult to outsource, they are essential for creating a solid foundation for long-term growth. He also highlights that building a successful practice is less about one major milestone and more about patiently connecting many small, interdependent pieces. As each step is completed, it unlocks the next phase of growth, reinforcing that sustainable success comes from steady progress rather than rapid expansion.  

Why do some goals energize you while others leave you feeling depleted? Could the key to greater productivity be greater self-awareness? Are you living by deliberate intentions, or simply running on default? In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with bestselling author Chris Bailey about how true productivity is rooted in intentionality rather than simply getting more done. Chris explains that productivity is about consistently following through on the things that matter most, aligning your actions with your values instead of chasing efficiency for its own sake. The conversation explores why productivity is deeply personal and why there is no one-size-fits-all system. Chris encourages listeners to experiment with evidence-based strategies while adapting them to their own personality, preferences, interests, and values. He also distinguishes between default intentions, which are shaped by our environment and conditioning, and deliberate intentions, which arise through self-reflection and conscious choice. Practices such as journaling, walking, and meditation can help people become more aware of these patterns and make intentional decisions. Chris also introduces the concept of 12 core human values, encouraging listeners to identify the ones that resonate most strongly with them and build goals around those values. For therapists and practice owners, his advice is simple: when your work reflects your deepest values, motivation becomes more sustainable, productivity feels more meaningful, and it becomes easier to make consistent progress toward your goals.  

What if your calling wasn't just to see clients, but to mentor other clinicians too? How can you make generosity sustainable instead of exhausting? Could interns and pre-licensed clinicians become one of your practice's greatest strengths? In this episode, Joe Sanok talks with Sabrina Rogers about building a teaching focused group practice that expands access to care while training future therapists. She shares how her passion for treating eating disorders inspired her to grow from solo practice after local specialist services closed. Sabrina explains how a pay what you can model made intern services financially sustainable while increasing access for clients. She also discusses how mentoring interns created a strong hiring pipeline, helping her practice grow by 150 percent in a year. Her advice is to hire for character as much as clinical skills, trust your vision, and build a practice that serves both your team and your community.  

Is your inner critic protecting you, or preventing you from growing? What fears show up when you give yourself permission to rest? How much longer are you willing to wait before pursuing the things that bring you joy? In this episode, Joe Sanok talks with Emily Pagone about transforming your inner critic from an obstacle into a source of insight. Rather than fighting self criticism, Emily explains how approaching it with curiosity can uncover the fears driving it, making it easier to move forward with confidence and self compassion. The conversation also explores how burnout, perfectionism, and fear can keep therapists from pursuing meaningful work. Emily shares how confronting her own inner critic inspired her to launch a podcast after years of hesitation. She encourages clinicians to create space for rest, reflect on what truly brings them joy, and take intentional action instead of letting fear make their decisions.

Did you know that you can use your private residence to open a Google Maps listing for your practice? How do you organize a phone system for a new, fully virtual private practice? How do you know if you need a virtual assistant? In this episode, Joe Sanok shares another behind the scenes update on building Great Lakes Online Counseling, focusing on the practical systems needed to launch a virtual group practice. He and his assistant, Jen, finalize the practice's phone system using Google Voice, set up a Google Business Profile with a private home address hidden from public view, and continue onboarding their first clinician. The episode also highlights the value of delegating administrative tasks to a virtual assistant, allowing the practice to move forward more efficiently. From publishing clinician profiles to launching the practice's first social media content, Joe demonstrates how consistent progress on small operational details creates the foundation for long term growth.

What if aging is about far more than just your physical health? Are we treating aging as a personal issue when it's really a societal one? Why is social work a critical pillar in "four dimensional" health care? In this episode, Joe Sanok talks with Dr. Jacob Kendall about why aging should be viewed as a social, cultural, and systemic issue rather than simply a medical one. Dr. Kendall introduces his four dimensional health framework, explaining how factors such as family, community, economics, and long term planning all shape the aging experience. The conversation also explores the importance of interdisciplinary care, particularly the vital role of social workers in supporting patients and caregivers. Dr. Kendall encourages clinicians to think beyond traditional health care models, advocate for more integrated systems, and remember that caring for themselves is essential to caring well for others.

Two things are true in our industry: therapists love being in solo practice, AND most don't earn very much. The latest industry report reports median annual income at just 53K for solo therapists - less than most entry-level W2 clinicians. But some solo therapists build their practice strategically to fund their real life and support their family for decades. How do they do it? They're doing 5 specific things right. In this episode, Melissa Schneider explains why many solo therapists struggle financially despite loving private practice, and shares five strategies for building a sustainable, profitable business. She emphasizes starting with your desired lifestyle and income, then reverse engineering your practice by setting realistic financial goals, choosing the right business model, and calculating how many client sessions you'll actually need each year. Melissa also encourages therapists to design their practices around what clients value, such as convenient scheduling and flexible appointment options, while being realistic about typical caseloads. Finally, she stresses the importance of seeking business education and community support, arguing that therapists are far more likely to succeed when they learn from others instead of trying to build a practice entirely on their own.

Are your clinician bios and onboarding processes speaking to what clients actually need, or just listing credentials? What makes onboarding a new clinician smooth and successful? Are your systems helping your practice grow, or slowing it down? In this episode, Joe Sanok shares an update on building Great Lakes Online Counseling, highlighting recent progress with hiring the practice's first clinician, refining onboarding systems, and working with his virtual assistant, Jen, to streamline operations. He also discusses verifying the practice on Google Business to improve online visibility and explains why clinician bios should focus on the needs of prospective clients rather than simply listing qualifications.  

Is your solo practice supporting your life, or limiting your potential? What would it take to grow beyond your own time and capacity? How do you scale into a group practice without losing control or burning out? In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok explores how therapists can successfully transition from solo practice to group practice. He shares his blueprint for sustainable growth, covering when to expand, how to hire and onboard your first clinician, and the systems needed to support long-term success. Joe also discusses building a practice brand that goes beyond the owner and marketing strategies to attract a steady flow of ideal clients.

How do you actually build a group practice from scratch? What systems should you set up before hiring your first clinician? And how can project management tools, delegation, and content systems make scaling your practice easier? In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok and his assistant, Jen, share the behind-the-scenes process of building Great Lakes Online Counseling from the ground up. They discuss creating scalable systems before hiring, using project management tools to streamline operations, developing effective onboarding workflows, and building authentic marketing that helps a growing group practice connect with prospective clients.

Is your sense of urgency actually helping you, or is it being driven by your inner critic? What happens when perfectionism becomes a way to hide pain instead of process it? As a business owner, how can you ensure you are spending your energy on the work you truly love? In this podcast episode, Emily Pagone interviews Joe Sanok about his experience with the inner critic, exploring how urgency, perfectionism, and personal challenges have shaped his approach to work and life. Together, they discuss recognizing self-imposed pressure, healing from difficult experiences, and how business owners can reclaim their passion by focusing on the work they love and delegating the rest.

What would you say if you had the world’s attention for 10 minutes? Is fear of public speaking stopping you from sharing something valuable? Are you holding back an idea […] The post How to Craft and Land TEDx Talks with Adam Lewis Walker | POP 1370 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

What happens when you bring purpose, not just strategy, into your business decisions? Are you relying too heavily on logic and neglecting the power of creativity and emotion? How might […] The post Bringing the Right Brain into Business with Rob Craven | POP 1369 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

What if addiction isn’t about the substance, but the pain beneath it? Which emotional “hooks” might be subtly driving behaviors we don’t fully understand? Why does real change begin only […] The post Learn to Identify the “Hooks” that Trigger Your Addictive Behavior with Dr. Adi Jaffe | POP 1368 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

What if the idea of “perfect love” is the very thing keeping us dissatisfied? How might our relationships change if we embraced love as imperfect and evolving? In which ways […] The post The Joy of Imperfect Love with Dr. Carla Marie Manly | POP 1367 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

What does it really take to earn a sustainable, full-time income as a solo therapist? Is the freedom of private practice worth the financial and emotional trade-offs? Are therapists investing […] The post Solo Practice Paychecks: An Industry Expert Explains What You’ll Really Take Home | POP 1366 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

Is it possible to take home six figures as a solo practitioner? Do people quickly earn as much or more as they made in group practice? How can you take […] The post Does Solo Practice Actually Make You More Money? An Expert Accountant Breaks It Down | POP 1365 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

Can interns be long-term investments for your practice? What would your current internship program look like if it were built around everything you once wished you had? Are you treating […] The post How to Take Interns in Private Practice with Alexandria “Alyx” Fields | POP 1364 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

Have you considered starting a podcast to amplify something you are passionate about? How do you spotlight the lives of other people to help spread awareness, information, and create more […] The post Amplifying Autism with Wendela Whitcomb Marsh | POP 1363 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

Will AI actually replace therapists, or expose the difference between transactional care and a real human connection? How can therapy be enhanced by AI? If AI can handle the admin […] The post Will AI Replace Therapists? With CEO of Wysa Jo Aggarwal | POP 1362 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

Are the skills that make you a great therapist quietly undermining your effectiveness as a leader? Can you truly lead others if you don’t yet understand how you respond to […] The post What You Don’t Know About Leadership with Dr. Michelle Perry | POP 1361 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

What happens when your “perfect” hiring plan falls apart at the last minute? How do you navigate the uncertainty and emotional swings of building something from scratch – again? When […] The post Building Great Lakes Online Counseling Week 13: We’ve Got to Try Something Else for Recruiting | POP 1360 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.

Is your solo practice supporting your life, or limiting your potential? What would it take to grow beyond your own time and capacity? How do you scale into a group […] The post From Solo Practice to Group Success: Joe Sanok’s Blueprint for Therapists | POP 1359 appeared first on How to Start, Grow, and Scale a Private Practice | Practice of the Practice.